🎙️ osdanova · 181 points · Posted at 13:11:58 on February 9, 2018 · (Permalink)
Edit: Thanks for the gold kind stranger :)
Concepts
A human is comprised of a heart, a body and a soul. The heart is the human's personality, memories, feelings and such, the body is a physical entity that can be touched, and the soul is the body's life essence/health, and is not related to thoughts or personality. For a further explanation read here
[1]. As such, I'll be using the word body as a combination of body and soul (An alive body)To explain it simply, a person has a body, a soul, and a heart. As an image, the soul is the life source, without it a person would be dead. Since the heart doesn’t have a form, memories play an important part in forming a heart. Also, the heart isn’t limited to people, but to all things. I tried to explain this concept to Disney, and they merely said that it must be an Eastern way of thinking. It may be interesting how overseas players think of it.
The rules for Heartless and Nobodies work as follows:
When a Heart has no body to shelter it, its darkness begins to consume it, creating a Heartless in the end.
Edit to be clearer: Heartless are embodiments of darkness. If they come from a heart, they are the darkness of that heart and keep the heart captive within them.
When a Body loses its heart and the heart become a Heartless, the body vanishes and begins creating a Nobody.
When a Heartless is defeated, essentially, the owner of that heart returns to life somewhere in the Realm with the body that had once disappeared. Some facts about where hearts go were also established in KHII, but those were exceptional circumstances brought about by the Organization. However, there is the rare case in which a body changes into a Nobody. If that has happened, without the vessel it ought to return to the heart will go into a suspended state.
When a Nobody is defeated, it's a little complicated. If the heart has been released they will return to their original form as mentioned above, but if the heart is still dispossessed by a Heartless, the Nobody will be swallowed by darkness. If their heart, wherever it is in the realm, could be taken back perhaps they could return to their original human form.
Sora and Kairi
Throughout KH1, Sora shelters 2 other hearts, Kairi's (Since Destiny Islands was cast into darkness) and Ventus (Since the end of BBS)
Since these 2 people's hearts didn't create a Heartless, instead of vanishing, their bodies remained in the Realm of Light.
Later in KH1, Sora releases his and Kairi's hearts. Kairi's returns to her body (Since her heart doesn't hold darkness it can't create a Heartless and it returned to her body) but Sora's creates a Heartless. This triggered Sora's body's process to create a Nobody.
Since Sora's body had 2 hearts, it started creating 2 Nobodies. Roxas as Sora's Nobody and Naminé as Kairi's Nobody. (Note that Nobodies are tied to the person's heart)
Soon after that, Kairi got rid of the darkness in Sora's heart and he turned back into a human.
Ansem's hypothesis
In Secret Ansem's Report 9, he begins formulating an hypothesis based on Kairi losing her heart in Destiny Islands.
Naminé is a Nobody, created when a young girl's heart left her body.
Yet she has no corresponding Heartless.
This is because the "young girl" in this case was a princess.
Since Kairi didn't create a Heartless, and her body didn't create a Nobody, it made no sense to him that she could have a Nobody.
With no darkness in her heart, Kairi produced no Heartless, and instead of vanishing, her body remained in the realm of light.
In other words, both the Nobody called Naminé and the Heartless—proof of a lost heart—are extremely unstable beings who lack the bodies needed to produce a Nobody. Therefore, they also lack Kairi's memories.
Later on, he would learn about Sora's sacrifice and formulate a new hypothesis.
I have arrived at a hypothesis.
I believe that Naminé was born as a special type of Nobody when Sora attacked himself with the Keyblade, causing his and Kairi's hearts to leave their bodies simultaneously. Naminé emerged as Kairi's Nobody...but the body and soul necessary to exist as a Nobody belonged to Sora.
And then he'd formulate his final hypothesis
Apart from Naminé, Nobodies retain their memories of their time as humans, but Sora's Nobody, Roxas, has lost Sora's memories.
This is likely because Sora's time as a Heartless was short, having recovered his heart and returned to his human form soon after leaving behind Roxas, his Nobody.
It would seem Roxas is much like Naminé. Naminé is Kairi's Nobody, but came into being via Sora's body and soul.
Likewise, Roxas is Sora's Nobody, but was left behind because Sora's Heartless regained human form using Kairi's heart instead of his own.
Roxas and Naminé
As Ansem explained, both Roxas and Naminé came into being via Sora's body. When Sora turned back into a human, they should have been erased, however, this was not the case, which is an exceptional event.
Sora was the only one able to return to his human form without destroying his Nobody. That is a statement to the love in his heart for other people, and the bonds that tie them together.
[2]
Summary:
Roxas is the Nobody of Sora, and came into being through Sora's body. He was born in Twilight Town and can use Sora's Keyblade powers. Note that Ventus's heart remained within Sora's body, so it ended up within Roxas.
Naminé is the Nobody of Kairi, and came into being through Sora's body. She was born in Castle Oblivion and can manipulate the memories of those close to Sora. (Because Kairi's heart was inside Sora)
None of them have memories of their human days.
Xion
Xion is a replica, a puppet with no face, created by Vexen in Castle Oblivion.
In KH CoM, Naminé shatters the memories of Sora. Some of them leaked into his Nobody, Roxas. Xion was created by inserting these leaked memories within the puppet.
She was an experimental replica used to "catch" Roxas's memories and create a Keyblade wielder for the Organization.
Although she can summon a Keyblade, note that her Keyblade is just a copy of Roxas's powers, unlike Roxas's which is a real Keyblade.
This was made so that Org. XIII had a spare Keyblade wielder.
We embarked upon the Replica Program to ensure our new power stays ours. Now, our shadow puppet, "No. i," lives.
Although she had no face, some people could see a face. This face came from the memories she held and varies depending on the person looking.
Xion's appearance should vary based on the relation of the viewer to her. Saïx sees her simply as a puppet. The Program approaches completion. Through Roxas, Xion is assembling a copy of the hero of the Keyblade. As proof, she sometimes appears to take on his form to my eyes.
I'm curious to know how she appears to the others. I see her as...him, though I suspect that Xemnas sees entirely something else in her.
Not many are even aware that Xion was born there.
Later on, Sora would try to recover his memories. To prevent him from awaking, Org. XIII would leak more memories into Roxas and Xion, where they'd be unreachable by Sora.
Be they a puppet or the hero's Nobody, we merely need a functional Keyblade master. The details are unimportant. The puppet has developed to a point where the hero of the Keyblade may be entirely redundant. Indeed, perhaps we ought never allow Sora to awaken. He cannot be controlled. He will rise up against us. We must move our agenda ahead with that firmly in mind.
Edit: Xemnas's plan for Xion
From this scene
[3]:I will admit, Xion has strayed form our original designs. However, we are also seeing an interesting side effect.
Xion was affected by Roxas, just as we had anticipated. This was indeed what we had hoped to achieve...
But then, through Roxas, Sora himself began to shape "it" into "her", giving Xion a sense of identity. Our plan seemed like a failure at this point...
But then it ocurred to me. Xion is keeping Sora's memories trapped by claiming them as her own. Keeping her close to Roxas will ultimately prevent Sora from ever waking.
Roxas's and Xion's demise
As Sora's memories were needed to awaken Sora, Roxas and Xion needed to disappear.
Xion was defeated by Roxas and returned to Sora's heart.
As the memories that made her up returned to Sora, she ceased to exist, and vanished from the minds of all who knew her.
- KH DDD's Chronicles (KH Days)
Later on, Roxas was turned into data and returned to Sora by Ansem the wise.
It may be that Sora's memories are slow to return because the half of him that Roxas is still lacking.
I must convert Roxas into data and return him to Sora.
The last of those memories were inside Roxas-- Sora's Nobody--
- KH DDD's Chronicles (KH Days)
With Roxas's demise, the last of Sora's memories returned to him, and he woke from a year of sleep.
- KH DDD's Chronicles (KH 2)
Sora's body(ies?)
It is known that Roxas and Naminé came into being through Sora's body, but it is unknown wether they grew new bodies from Sora's or they have part of Sora's body.
You can think whatever you prefer, but, in my opinion, Sora has his full body and Roxas and Naminé have their own unique bodies.
The 2 facts that make me think that are the following:
Roxas was never needed to "reassemble" Sora. The only thing ever mentioned to be needed from Roxas were Sora's memories and Ventus's heart. Besides, Ansem turned Roxas into data to return him to Sora.
Naminé didn't return to Sora. Since she was Kairi's Nobody, she returned to Kairi. This would mean part of Sora's body would be a part of Kairi, which doesn't make sense.
[1]
[2]
Young Xehanort Boss Battle 05:48; Armored Ventus Nightmare Boss Battle 28:28. Critical Mode, default Keyblades only.
Make sure to visit KH13.com for everything Kingdom Hearts! http://kh13.com/
Kingdom Hearts HD 2.8 Soundtrack Playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLhcSrKyqhfh6gYu2ZRncXkMBVdxt2e8PX
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You can find/follow me on:
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More video playlists:
— Kingdom Hearts Unchained x English & Japanese Playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLhcSrKyqhfh4fLr4-fzIIeeaMG2RdgPGH
— KINGDOM HEARTS χ[chi] - PC Browser version, EXCLUSIVE English Walkthrough: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLhcSrKyqhfh5gWWmRv4rISACTyrZbPPsS
— Kingdom Hearts HD 2.8 Final Chapter Prologue English & Japanese Playthrough Playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLhcSrKyqhfh4ILDMd3-IAkOIfjyqqjWzc
— Kingdom Hearts HD 2.8 Final Chapter Prologue Soundtrack Playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLhcSrKyqhfh6gYu2ZRncXkMBVdxt2e8PX
— Kingdom Hearts Series Video Guides: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLhcSrKyqhfh4UMNnONBSCN-Ez3gUBLY97
— English KINGDOM HEARTS HD 2.5 ReMIX Playthrough:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLhcSrKyqhfh43HLD0S4zyfIiklknbYl4-
— Japanese KINGDOM HEARTS HD 2.5 ReMIX Playthrough: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLhcSrKyqhfh6M7vJJlWfN3ipXZy7d93KS
— KINGDOM HEARTS HD 2.5 ReMIX Soundtrack: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLhcSrKyqhfh42icWH8kUc1y0Wtk6f215m
— KINGDOM HEARTS Birth by Sleep FINAL MIX: HD Chronicles: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLhcSrKyqhfh4YJ5wleLzccuEsfS8AK6JU
— KINGDOM HEARTS HD 1.5 ReMIX Complete Playthrough, for PS3 (containing KINGDOM HEARTS FINAL MIX; Re:Chain of Memories; cinematics for 358/2 Days): https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLhcSrKyqhfh6SsgPLH6uXx2I36M-xJ_ow
— KINGDOM HEARTS 358/2 Days Complete Playthrough, for Nintendo DS: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLhcSrKyqhfh5voa5C_TBUKtvbb6NQVedD
— KINGDOM HEARTS Re:coded Complete Playthrough, for Nintendo DS: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLhcSrKyqhfh4ut3YEBTnbkM67cNDJ6O-O
— KINGDOM HEARTS 3D [Dream Drop Distance] Complete Playthrough, for Nintendo 3DS: https://www.youtube.com/user/Everglow8444/playlists?shelf_id=14&sort=dd&view=50
[3]
Kingdom Hearts: 358/2 Days "The Movie" (1.5 HD Remix)
Roxas... Sora's Nobody. His days in the Organization are filled with trials and tribulation. This is the story about a boy that was never meant to exist.
Kingdom Hearts 2 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqIkClK1lLI&list=PL0077BA69F19DF736
ATRG - http://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8Jcq_he09hAYTWt_qlxh-Q
TheyCallMeVinny · 45 points · Posted at 16:03:19 on February 9, 2018 · (Permalink)
I want Roxas and Namine to have their own bodies and life one day.
Not gonna happen I know, not realistic, but it’s just a little wish of mine.
Nathanael777 · 38 points · Posted at 16:42:17 on February 9, 2018 · (Permalink)
You might be in luck with Kingdom Hearts 3 then. Naminé isn't mentioned but Roxas is specifically mentioned in a trailer by Xemnas commenting that Sora was trying to bring him back. Hopefully we'll see Naminé as well, doesn't seem very fair otherwise.
🎙️ osdanova · 26 points · Posted at 16:45:00 on February 9, 2018 · (Permalink)
Afaik, part of the plot of KH3 is bringing back everyone who was "lost", so you can be a little optimistic. Remember that Ansem hid his research within Sora (which Riku retrieved in DDD) in order for them to be able to recover these people.
Also, in the orchestra trailer Xemnas says that Sora wants to bring Roxas back :D
Blue_Link13 · 7 points · Posted at 17:13:53 on February 9, 2018 · (Permalink)
Adding to what the other comment said, don't forget that, as stated an DDD, nobodies grow hearts. It's very likely that now that Sora is complete and has all his memories, Roxas' unique birth plus having a heart and a pretty strong sense of self for a nobody means that whatever method Sora uses to pull Ven's heart from his can also bring Roxas to life.
Beejsbj · 2 points · Posted at 00:31:20 on February 10, 2018 · (Permalink)
lol clearly Roxas will come back. i feel the square will do exactly opp of what your comment says.
but IMO. no, i hope Roxas doesn't get his own being. its too happy an ending. at this rate all characters that had tragedies will be fixed. seems a bit unrealistic.
esp for roxas who, by definition, IS SORA. and then there's the fact that Roxas would exist at the same time as Ventus. which just seems even more problematic. does Roxas stop looking like ventus when Ventus gets his heart back? Is he still technically roxas without Ventus's heart?
bobguy117 · 20 points · Posted at 17:29:44 on February 9, 2018 · (Permalink)
In the Kingdom Hearts series, hearts are malleable and can take any form. You accept this fact just by accepting the fact that Heartless exist in the world.
Heartless are creatures whose hearts have fallen to Darkness and left their bodies behind. They do not have bodies. They are literally just hearts. The reason they don't look like hearts is because falling to Darkness causes the heart to forget its true form, and mold itself into the shape of a creature of Darkness.
They still do not have bodies. They are hearts shaped like bodies.
This same thing happens to Sora when his heart falls to Darkness in KH1 and he becomes a Shadow. His heart leaves his body and assumes the form of a creature of Darkness. His heart does not magically grow a new body, it just changes shape to resemble what it thinks it is supposed to look like, which, for a heart that has fallen to Darkness, is a Heartless.
When Kairi hugs Sora's Heartless and he regains his true form, that is not Kairi miraculously procuring a new body for Sora out of thin air, it is her overwhelming Light (only possible because of her status as a Princess of Heart, whose hearts are pure Light) cleansing Sora's heart of the Darkness and reminding it of what Sora's true form is. This allows Sora's heart to change shape again into something that resembles his real body.
Again, she does not have the power to create fully-grown bodies from nothing. She just reminded Sora's heart of what he is supposed to look like, and since hearts can take on any form, from the end of KH1 through CoM and to the beginning of KH2, Sora's heart assumed the shape of Sora's lost body. He did not reclaim his body. He was literally a walking, breathing heart, shaped like a body.
But because Sora was unique in that he had three (that we know of) hearts inside him at the time of his transition into a Heartless, the process was slightly different.
First, his own heart left his body and became his Heartless. Second, his body, abandoned by its heart, was transported to the Realm Between where it became Sora's Nobody, Roxas. Third, Kairi's heart left Sora's body.
Ordinarily when a strong heart leaves a body, a Nobody can form. This cannot happen normally with a Princess of Heart, because they are made of Pure Light. But because it left Sora's body, which is not Pure Light, a Nobody had to be formed.
But what form could it take? It couldn't use Sora's body, because that went to Roxas. It couldn't use Kairi's body, because it is made of Pure Light whereas nobodies are made of neither Light nor Darkness. So what could be the core that gave Kairi's nobody its form? In this case, it was Sora's memories, specifically of Kairi. This is the reason Namine has the ability to manipulate Sora's memories. She is connected to them because they are what gave her life. This is also the reason why she looks identical to Kairi apart from the hair (which is likely due to the presence of the third heart: Ventus's).
Which brings us to the fourth thing that happens: Ventus's heart is not removed from Sora's body. You can see this very clearly in the cutscene in KH1 where Sora's and Kairi's hearts leave Sora's body. Square had the option of changing that scene during the HD Remix for PS3 and again on PS4, but they kept it the same. They very clearly want us to know that even though there were at least three Hearts inside Sora that day, only exactly two of them left. Ventus's remains in Roxas, gives him his appearance, and allows him to eventually awaken the power to dual-wield his Keyblades alongside Roxas' own from the new heart he had grown.
And if you still don't buy the whole "Hearts are Malleable" factoid, you need look no further than the Keyblade itself. The Keyblade is the heart given form. It is literally a person's heart transformed into a weapon so the wielder can defend themselves against the Darkness. If a heart can turn into the shape of a creature of Darkness or even a giant key, there is no reason why it couldn't also just turn into the shape of its own body, like Sora's did.
AutoTonePimp · 4 points · Posted at 22:41:44 on February 9, 2018 · (Permalink)
This is the correct answer here. OP is trying to argue that because Ansem's report says Namine came into being via Sora's body that the body was split into two for Namine and Roxas and then somehow Sora magically got a body back. What Ansem is saying is Sora fulfilled the conditions for a Nobody being born but Roxas already had the body.
The fact is that Roxas has 100% Sora's body and Namine has no body. Ansem himself says she is a nobody in the truest sense of the word. OP says it's weird that Kairi absorbs Namine when she has Sora's body. It's not weird because she didn't have Sora's body, Roxas did. Namine was absorbed because she was fading away and by being with Kairi she can keep living on in a way.
🎙️ osdanova · 2 points · Posted at 00:01:36 on February 10, 2018 · (Permalink)
No. I said that Roxas and Naminé come from Sora's body. I never said that Sora's body was split in two.
That's no fact. Show one single source that explicitly states that.
I said it'd be weird if Naminé actually had Sora's body as other people claim.
Naminé was not fading away. She was afraid that whenever she died she would just vanish because she's a Nobody and supposedly had no heart to leave behind.
AutoTonePimp · 3 points · Posted at 00:29:41 on February 10, 2018 · (Permalink)
Ansem himself states in the reports Namine is a non being in the truest sense of the word. And also says she lacks all the elements of a Nobody. I don't understand why you keep glossing over this.
Also Namine was fading, she was unstable since she technically shouldn't have existed. In KH2 when she's running away with Kairi she clearly starts fading. With Kairi taking her in she can live on inside her or they can find out a way to pull her out and give her an actual body.
bobguy117 · 2 points · Posted at 00:36:49 on February 10, 2018 · (Permalink)
Have you played KH2? It's an often-repeated fact all throughout that game as well as in 358/2 Days that Roxas is Sora's Nobody, meaning he was made of Sora's discarded body.
bobguy117 · 1 points · Posted at 23:49:24 on February 9, 2018 · (Permalink)
I can see where he got confused but yeah what you said is absolutely right.
trainstation98 · 2 points · Posted at 06:54:11 on February 10, 2018 · (Permalink)
But now doesn't roxas also have a heart.
In ddd they say nobodies grew their own hearts. So was roxases heart destroyed or is it in sora.
If its in sora can they release it and have roxas exist without a body or just create a replica vessel for his heart to live in.
bobguy117 · 1 points · Posted at 14:52:15 on February 10, 2018 · (Permalink)
Yeah it went back to Sora, we see Roxas' heart communicate with Sora and Riku in DDD. So you're right that is the case.
trainstation98 · 1 points · Posted at 14:53:40 on February 10, 2018 · (Permalink)
Confirmed.
Roxas returning in xions body
Xandabar · 1 points · Posted at 22:09:23 on February 11, 2018 · (Permalink)
I know I'm late to the conversation, but if Roxas actually has Sora's body, what happens to that body when he rejoined Sora's heart?
bobguy117 · 1 points · Posted at 23:40:26 on February 11, 2018 · (Permalink)
Sora took it back and became "complete" again!
Xandabar · 1 points · Posted at 23:59:48 on February 11, 2018 · (Permalink)
So current Sora is whole, not just a Sora shaped heart, right? Just making sure I'm following.
bobguy117 · 2 points · Posted at 00:06:57 on February 12, 2018 · (Permalink)
Yes Sora currenty has both his original body as well as his heart so he is 100% himself.
Xandabar · 1 points · Posted at 19:58:49 on February 13, 2018 · (Permalink)
Sorry another follow up question:
I assume this happened when Roxas disappeared and Sora woke up. How exactly did Sora reclaim his body? Did the body shaped heart just BECOME the new body? Or did his body just disappear and reappear around his heart form? Sorry if I'm not making sense. Just trying to understand how Sora's body physically went from Roxas to Sora.
bobguy117 · 1 points · Posted at 20:20:30 on February 13, 2018 · (Permalink)
It's not shown on-screen but I assume DiZ just reinserted Sora's heart back into his body
Xandabar · 1 points · Posted at 20:22:37 on February 13, 2018 · (Permalink)
But don't we see the moment Sora comes out of the pod? Wouldn't opening the pod disrupt the process? Theoretically, anyways.
bobguy117 · 1 points · Posted at 20:36:07 on February 13, 2018 · (Permalink)
Why would it? Namine's magic was keeping him asleep and restoring his memories. The pod was just holding him.
Xandabar · 1 points · Posted at 21:24:56 on February 13, 2018 · (Permalink)
I might be just looking too much into the fact that he wakes up when the pod opens. I think that's where my hang up is,though you are right, the pod isn't keeping him asleep, it's keeping him safe. I think I got it now thanks!
Mirashade · 1 points · Posted at 23:10:53 on February 9, 2018 · (Permalink)
If Namine were made from Sora's memories of Kairi, then why didn't she need to return to Sora when he needed all his memories back? Sora remembered Kairi while Namine still existed. Likewise Xion is made from the same thing and had to return.
I don't like any of the explanations for how Namine is a Nobody because she defies all logic of what a Nobody is. Mainly being that she never returned to Sora and therefore showed no evidence of taking anything from Sora, but rather returned to Kairi despite Kairi's body not disappearing after losing her heart. It makes most sense according to lore we know of that she's actually a being like Vanitas, a fragment of Kairi's heart broken off by the power of the keyblade when Sora freed it from himself.
bobguy117 · 2 points · Posted at 23:43:20 on February 9, 2018 · (Permalink)
When Kairi's heart left Sora's body, a Nobody had to be made. But Kairi's nobody couldn't use Sora's body, and it didn't know what form to take because it didn't have anything of Kairi's to refer to. The only connection Namine had to Kairi at the moment of her birth was through Sora, so she based her form off how he remembered Kairi.
She isn't "made of" Sora's memories in the same way Xion is, but she's more "made from them." She is almost certainly made out of Nothingness. That's why she didn't have anything to return to Sora.
She didn't take anything of his on the way out like Roxas did, but she came into being the way she did through him, using Kairi's heart and Sora's body for the process of creating a Nobody and Sora's memories of Kairi to give her a shape, despite the fact that none of those three things are actually present in the final product, Namine, because she is made of Nothing.
🎙️ osdanova · -1 points · Posted at 17:42:37 on February 9, 2018 · (Permalink)
Incorrect. It has always been stated that Heartless are "darkness taken bodily form" so they do have a body. If you can touch something, it has a body.
Not this sh!t again. When you get facts about the heart theory being true come back and share your research.
bobguy117 · 2 points · Posted at 17:56:08 on February 9, 2018 · (Permalink)
This is exactly what I just said. The Heartless take the form of a body. Thank you for the quote.
What theory? You are the one presenting a theory with this post. What I'm explaining to you is how hearts have always been said to work in the game. The facts are:
Heartless are hearts taken bodily form
Keyblades are hearts taken the form of a weapon
Nobodies like Roxas are made of a body that has been discarded by a Heart
Namine is a Nobody who shares a deep existential connection with Sora's memories
Sora was called "incomplete" by both Xemnas and Ansem the Wise only after he lost his body.
Do you not understand these facts as they are presented in the games?
And if a heart truly was able to create its own body, why aren't any nobodies produced from all the powerful Heartless we defeat throughout the story?
🎙️ osdanova · 0 points · Posted at 18:07:34 on February 9, 2018 · (Permalink)
No. They are darkness taken bodily form. Both pureblood and emblem. And they keep captive the heart.
This has never been stated. (Although I do believe that Keyblades come from one's heart)
Which is why Roxas and Naminé are said to be exceptions.
Naminé came into being through Sora's body, that's why she's related to him and his memories.
Incomplete doesn't mean "you don't have a body", and it can reference multiple things:
Sora exists while his Nobody also does.
Sora shares his Keyblade powers with Roxas.
Sora lost Ventus's heart.
Edit: Also, if you can share when does Ansem say that, please do, I don't remember that :O
Literally none of those facts support that Sora is just a heart, in fact, it would be hilarious that, as you said, Sora (a heart) would summon and wield a Keyblade (So he'd be wielding himself)
bobguy117 · 6 points · Posted at 18:30:13 on February 9, 2018 · (Permalink)
Darkness clearly cannot take form itself, and neither can Light. Otherwise we would be seeing creatures constantly popping out of thin air in both the RoD and the RoL. Both need to exist within someone in order to have a form.
We know this because when Master Xehanort wanted to extract the Darkness from Ventus' heart in order to create an entity of Pure Darkness for him to clash with, he had to take part of Ven's heart with him. This is because Darkness cannot take form on its own. It needs a heart (or presumably a body, despite the fact that we have never seen a case like this) to mold into its desired shape.
Roxas is a confirmed Nobody who had two hearts inside him. Namine is a confirmed Nobody born from the heart of a Princess of Heart, which is supposed to be impossible. If that isn't exceptional enough to be called exceptions then I don't know what is.
EDIT 1: Xemnas is also said to be a special Nobody. Furthermore he's said to be special in the same way that Roxas is. We know that Ansem SoD doesn't have his own body, because he needs to possess Riku in order to take form (huh, I guess Darkness technically has taken over a body and molded it into its desired form). So since Xemnas and Roxas are special in the same way, and since we know that Xemnas is special in a way that doesn't involve his Heartless having grown its own body, we know that Roxas must be special in some other way.
Roxas also came into being through Sora's body, yet he does not share Namine's power to manipulate Sora's memories. Obviously she must have gotten those powers from something besides Sora's body.
Sora and Riku shared a Keyblade for most of KH1, and nobody ever called Riku incomplete. Sora must have been incomplete for another reason.
Nobody knew Sora had Ventus' heart in the first place. They couldn't call him incomplete based on something they couldn't know in the first place.
Nobody ever called Kairi incomplete, even though she also existed while her Nobody did too. This is not why Sora was incomplete. At least not directly. Sora was incomplete because he was missing his original body, because it was in the posession of Roxas.
No more ridiculous than Ventus (with half a heart) wielding his keyblade (his heart) against Vanitas (part of his heart) wielding the X-blade (both of their hearts) inside their Station of Awakening (both of their hearts).
EDIT 2: To answer your question, Ansem the Wise spoke to Riku about Sora's status as "incomplete" during the prologue to KH2. He also frequently referred to Roxas as "half of Sora" and said that he had taken possession of Sora's body in one of his Reports.
Nathanael777 · 6 points · Posted at 16:47:44 on February 9, 2018 · (Permalink)
It really confuses me why Naminé merged with Kairi at the end of KH2 since Kairi is a full person and at that point Naming definitely had her own heart.
Side note: what do you all think the chances are of Naminé returning in KH3? I would be content letting her stay as a part of Kairi, but due to foreshadowing that makes it seem almost gauranteed that we'll see Roxas and Xion come back, it seems unfair to leave Naminé the odd one out, even though there doesn't seem to be any foreshadowing hinting at her return. Thoughts?
🎙️ osdanova · 2 points · Posted at 17:27:20 on February 9, 2018 · (Permalink)
Naminé thought Nobodies had no heart. This means that once they died, they'd simply vanish. (When humans die, their hearts keep on existing and supposedly reunite with Kingdom Hearts)
Reuniting with her somebody, Kairi, would mean that she would be kept alive within Kairi's heart and would also be always close to Roxas.
Side note:
There's no reason for her not to return if the others do. Imo, if he doesn't bring back all of the people in this scene, he'd have failed.
Nathanael777 · 2 points · Posted at 22:23:26 on February 9, 2018 · (Permalink)
I was kind of discounting what she said because at that time it wasn't confirmed that Nobodies could grow hearts (now we know that they can, and it's pretty obvious that Naminé has since she went from basically being a zombie to actually feeling shame and remorse in CoM).
As for that scene, that's what I was thinking of but completely forgot that Naminé was also there, I just remembered her narrating the thing. Guess that answers my question.
AutoTonePimp · 1 points · Posted at 22:48:52 on February 9, 2018 · (Permalink)
Ansem mentions in the reports Namine was an unstable being. She had no body and she had no heart. She technically shouldn't have been existing at all and was on her way to fading away but by Kairi absorbing her she could keep living on in a way.
🎙️ osdanova · 1 points · Posted at 23:49:35 on February 9, 2018 · (Permalink)
As I already explained in the post, you're talking about Ansem writing about a supposedly Naminé being created when Kairi's heart left her own body, which never happened. (Report 9) Since Kairi's body never vanished it made no sense for Naminé to exist at all, thus she was "a "non-being" in the truest sense of the word"
From Report 10 onwards, he learns about Sora's sacrifice and starts calling Naminé as what she is: a Nobody. She did have a body and she did grow a heart as explained in DDD.
AutoTonePimp · 1 points · Posted at 23:57:51 on February 9, 2018 · (Permalink)
That's from report 10 so he still continues to believe that she still doesn't have a body. He hasn't changed his observation about it.
Also nowhere in DDD did it state she had a body.
🎙️ osdanova · 1 points · Posted at 00:08:01 on February 10, 2018 · (Permalink)
He has. He has been thinking about it and has arrived at a hypothesis, and he starts explaining his hypothesis, where, unlike before, he mentions that Naminé comes from Sora's body, meaning she doesn't come from thin air (As he thought in Report 9), thus she no longer is "a "non-being" in the truest sense of the word".
Why would it? She can be seen and touched thus she has a body. I legit don't know what's your idea of a body.
AutoTonePimp · 1 points · Posted at 00:21:42 on February 10, 2018 · (Permalink)
So you're just going to ignore the fact that Ansem himself says she lacks all the elements of a Nobody? You're clinging onto the fact that he says he's arrived at a hypothesis like he changed his mind.
Heartless can be seen and touched too. They don't have bodies. Sora was a heart for all of CoM but he could be seen and touched. Vanitas was the pure darkness in Ven's heart, he could be seen and touched. So if Namine could be seen and touched why does that somehow prove she has a body?
🎙️ osdanova · 1 points · Posted at 00:31:59 on February 10, 2018 · (Permalink)
I'm not ignoring it at all. I'm saying that after learning about Sora's sacrifice he realized his previous hypothesis (Which was Naminé being born from Kairi's heart leaving her own body) was incorrect.
Also, Heartless do have bodies. They are embodiments of darkness (bodies made of darkness) they are just not human bodies.
The Sora was a heart throughout CoM is just a theory and has never been proved. I've yet to see any source that actually supports that theory. It's just a convenient way to "explain" the weird situation of Sora's body without giving details or sources.
And, again, I don't know what you're thinking when you talk about a body. A body is just a material object. If you inserted a heart and soul/life essence within a stone, it'd become a living being just like the rest.
AutoTonePimp · 1 points · Posted at 00:48:13 on February 10, 2018 · (Permalink)
Heartless don't have bodies. They're the darkness of people's heart taken shape. There's no such thing as bodies of darkness. A body in the Kingdom Hearts universe is just a vessel for the heart, a container.
Sora gets called incomplete in KH1 by Xemnas after becoming a Heartless. If he somehow obtained a new body why would he be called that? He was just a walking heart. And he was incomplete because he didn't have a body.
JamaltS · 7 points · Posted at 14:58:02 on February 9, 2018 · (Permalink)
!RedditSilver
RedditSilverRobot · 1 points · Posted at 14:58:30 on February 9, 2018 · (Permalink)
Here's your Reddit Silver, osdanova!
/u/osdanova has received silver 1 time. (given by /u/JamaltS) info
🎙️ osdanova · 1 points · Posted at 14:59:08 on February 9, 2018 · (Permalink)
Ty kind sir xD
Lugia115 · 7 points · Posted at 14:34:19 on February 9, 2018 · (Permalink)
I agree. Maybe when Sora returned to be human, Roxas and Naminé grew their own bodies. Or maybe they exist without any body.
Solemnscate · 3 points · Posted at 15:56:20 on February 9, 2018 · (Permalink)
That’s actually amazing, I didn’t know about Xion being faceless and those who saw her made her change her appearance? So when we see her actual face not from someone’s perspective is that her actual face or what?
🎙️ osdanova · 8 points · Posted at 16:34:18 on February 9, 2018 · (Permalink)
Her actual face is just blank, like a mannequin.
Around day 25, she obtained enough of Sora's memories to be seen as the Kairi in Sora's memories (With black hair to not be super obvious) Although only the closest person to Sora can see her, Roxas.
In this scene Riku sees her as Kairi too.
In this scene you can clearly see when the player can see Roxas's or Axel's perspective, which is why she has her hood on or off respectively. Notice that not even Axel can see "her face". He'll later be able to see her, after getting closer to Xion and Sora.
In this scene, Xigbar can see Ventus in Xion because he fought Ventus back in BBS when he was still human. (And Ventus's heart is within Sora so they're closely connected)
In the end, she obtained so many of Sora's memories leaked from Roxas that she became a copy of Sora. (Also, damn, that scene is so moving :'C)
From interviews:
MadeLAYline · 3 points · Posted at 17:22:15 on February 9, 2018 · (Permalink)
I always thought if a nobody’s will was strong enough, they would be able to grow their own hearts. In this case for Roxas and Namine. I’ve always loved the 2 characters and really hope they can join Sora and friends are real people with their own bodies.
🎙️ osdanova · 3 points · Posted at 17:36:02 on February 9, 2018 · (Permalink)
Having a strong will is not needed. Just by living experiences and creating memories a heart will grow.
"I’ve always loved the 2 characters and really hope they can join Sora and friends are real people with their own bodies."
Half of the plot of KH3 is about bringing the people who got lost, so you can be a little optimistic :)
SirLocke13 · 2 points · Posted at 22:44:01 on February 9, 2018 · (Permalink)
On the topic of bodies:
Roxas is Sora's Body.
Sora had a form of a body, being a purified Heartless from Kairi's magic.
Namine is the weird one, and rightly so. Her body is just a weird force that was just created, and honestly it's w/e with her.
Key_Chain · 2 points · Posted at 02:48:55 on February 10, 2018 · (Permalink)
I just want all of them to kiss.
iRStupid2012 · 2 points · Posted at 08:56:45 on February 10, 2018 · (Permalink)
OP, in the Sora/Kairi section, you mentioned Ventus' heart being sheltered in Sora - yet later you mentioned Sora released both Sora's and Kairi's heart, doesn't Sora hold 3 hearts at this point, technically? His own, Ventus', and Kairi's?
🎙️ osdanova · 2 points · Posted at 08:58:22 on February 10, 2018 · (Permalink)
Yeah, Ventus's heart remained within the body and ended up within Roxas.
iRStupid2012 · 1 points · Posted at 09:10:16 on February 10, 2018 · (Permalink)
So this is how Roxas has his appearance then, but I'm also going to assume that the reason why the Keyblade of People's Hearts didn't release Ventus's heart is because he was in the realm of sleep in Castle Oblivion
ornamentelle · 1 points · Posted at 22:59:50 on February 9, 2018 · (Permalink)
I thought that Xion's initial creation started with Sora's encounter with Unknown (Xemnas) in Hollow Bastion, as her presence predates Sora's arrival to Castle Oblivion. The issue with Sora's shattered memories was that his memories were flowing through Roxas "into another" which was preventing Namine from putting everything together in their proper place.
🎙️ osdanova · 2 points · Posted at 23:52:24 on February 9, 2018 · (Permalink)
I think Xemnas only tested Roxas's somebody's strength. Otherwise, if you find a source let me know :D
What are you referring to? :o
ornamentelle · 1 points · Posted at 00:15:19 on February 10, 2018 · (Permalink)
I don't have a source on hand, just an assumption since Xemnas seemed to do something to Sora when he passed through him. Though I can't remember if I ever heard anything regarding Xemnas in Hollow Bastion. (If I didn't, then how did I get that idea in my head? Hm... Maybe it's time to do some digging.)
As for Xion, she joined the Organization before Sora even got to Castle Oblivion. Marluxia and the other members stationed at C.O. don't even go there until a couple weeks after Day 7. Granted, Xion only gains a face to Roxas on Day 25, which is like a day after Sora arrives at Castle Oblivion.
Edit: I forgot to say, this is a very good explanation and quite concise. I think it helped me realize some assumptions I had about Xion weren't quite correct because it's been a looooong time since I looked at the Days secret reports to match the timeline. Thumbs up!
Mirashade · 1 points · Posted at 04:28:21 on February 10, 2018 · (Permalink)
When Xemnas passes through Sora before the battle begins, the screen goes black and quotes from various previous dialogues in the game flash by on screen. This is assumed to be Xemnas sampling Sora's memories.
Enzo-Unversed · 1 points · Posted at 05:21:25 on February 10, 2018 · (Permalink)
I really want to see Xion become a person.
somehobo42 · 1 points · Posted at 20:52:59 on February 15, 2018 · (Permalink)
Best
higitus · 1 points · Posted at 15:59:34 on February 9, 2018 · (Permalink)
You my friend, deserve a medal for this.
Ephraim226 · 1 points · Posted at 20:54:51 on February 9, 2018 · (Permalink)
Thanks for this!
Now if only the games were concise enough WITHOUT the need for fans, interviews and posts like this to fill in the gaps.
🎙️ osdanova · 1 points · Posted at 21:01:53 on February 9, 2018 · (Permalink)
Well, to be honest, if you check the quotes, I only used in-game info. The story is presented kinda like a puzzle and it's up to the player to connect all the dots or not :p
Solemnscate · 1 points · Posted at 21:08:07 on February 9, 2018 · (Permalink)
That’s very interesting, and wow that’s so upsetting to think for almost 10 years I never knew or probably did but forgot. 😢