🎙️ osdanova · 13 points · Posted at 16:14:53 on December 1, 2017 · (Permalink)*
First of all, we'll get rid of the terms heart and soul, since these terms are being used loosely.
A human is comprised by 3 things, body, kokoro (心) and tama (魂).
These are the terms used in Japanese, and come from Japan's religion, Shinto.
The body is the physical entity, same as in English.
The kokoro is "the joined emotive/cognitive capacity" *, this is, the feelings and thoughts of a person. A closer translation to this concept might be mind or "soul", which Wikipedia refers to as "Soul or psyche (Greek: "psyühē", of "psychein", "to breathe") are the mental abilities of a living being: reason, character, feeling, consciousness, memory, perception, thinking, etc."
The tama is "not concentrated in one thing or person but it is spread everywhere and gives a life. «Tama gives its holder vital energy but not a personality. When tama leaves a body, a man gets sick or die»". * In Nomura's words, tama is "the life source", that which allows/orders the body to move/live.
These terms are translated as heart for kokoro and soul for tama, but bear in mind that what we would call a person (thoughts, feeling, memories, experiences) is the heart, and that the soul is not related to thoughts or personality, but to the person's health.
These 3 terms are commonly depicted in KH as a heart for the kokoro/heart, a crown for the soul/tama and a Fleur-de-Lis for the body. Naminé's sketches, the symbol in Twilight Town's mansion, and Ultima Weapon are some examples.
Nomura once stated that there's no "concept of death" in KH. This is not to say that people don't die. It just means that people are not "erased from existance". A person can be killed, or perish by age (The soul or the body perish) but the heart will remain existing. (Most likely returning to Kingdom Hearts) Wether a person can "come back to life" by obtaining a new body and soul is unknown. (Although one can insert his/her heart into another's body before dying to survive)
If the heart is separated, it will be consumed by darkness, creating a Heartless. The body and its soul/tama/life essence left behind create a Nobody.
If the tama/soul/life essence disappears, the person dies. This happens when somebody is killed or dies from age or illness. Sora's tama is depicted in game as an "HP bar", when it gets low Sora gets tired and if it reaches 0 Sora dies.
A lot of people think LW is Terra's mind, but this is wrong. LW is a piece of Terra's tama/life essence with one single order, defeat Xehanort. It does not think by itself. Much like a robot, it moves (Thanks to Terra's tama) and fights when he detects Xehanort's around.
Edit: to avoid confusion, I mean Terra's not controlling the armor with his mind, instead, his though of defeating Xehanort remains in the armor (Not his mind) and it moves thanks to some of Terra's tama.
Lastly, I'm no expert in the matter, I just researched a little, so don't expect all I wrote to be perfect. If there's anyone that knows more about these ideas please feel free to share your thoughts.
palizinhas · 3 points · Posted at 17:00:08 on December 1, 2017 · (Permalink)
Xehanort outright says that Lingering Will is Terra's mind resisting, and that was the only time what Lingering Will was got any sort of mention within the series.
Lingering Will is an impression of Terra being left in his armor. Calling it his soul is stretching it without any real evidence. If the name is Lingering Will, it could very well be a part of his mind, of his will, that got left in the armor due to Terra's wish to defeat Xehanort.
I don't know that his life force could be separated to a point that could both animate his armor and stay in his body without Xehanort suffering any problems from it/straight up dying. And while that could be possible, it has never been confirmed, so it being Terra's soul isn't canon.
🎙️ osdanova · 1 points · Posted at 17:42:36 on December 1, 2017 · (Permalink)
As I said, it is not his "soul", it is his tama. Without tama the armor wouldn't be able to move at all. Wether LW's order to defeat Xehanort comes from an "impression" or directly from Terra's heart/kokoro is irrelevant.
palizinhas · 2 points · Posted at 18:26:30 on December 1, 2017 · (Permalink)
Plenty of things move without life force in them, up to and including the Heartless (as the soul stays within the body when the separation into Heartless and Nobody happens, otherwise the body would perish). The fact that the armor moves doesn't in and of itself prove that Terra's soul is both there and within Terranort. If there is no official confirmation of the fact, it's a theory.
🎙️ osdanova · 1 points · Posted at 18:45:40 on December 1, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's wrong. Heartless are the physical manifestation of darkness (body), and they have tama, which is used to move that body.
palizinhas · 1 points · Posted at 19:50:57 on December 1, 2017 · (Permalink)
Nobodies are bodies without a heart. Ergo, the heart is the one thing that leaves. Meaning Heartless are the darkness of the heart taken form.
🎙️ osdanova · 0 points · Posted at 20:00:21 on December 1, 2017 · (Permalink)
What does that even mean? Nobodies are born without a heart, but immediately grow one, as any entity in KH has a heart as stated by Nomura. In the same fashion, Heartless have a body and soul, which comes from the darkness within the heart they hold captive.
palizinhas · 1 points · Posted at 20:03:54 on December 1, 2017 · (Permalink)
They don't immediately grow one, they can grow one by experiencing the world and other people (as said by Xemnas and Ansem), but that doesn't mean every Nobody has a heart. Nomura is right that everything has a heart, but Nobodies aren't normal beings. They are what's left after a heart is swallowed by darkness.
Unless the soul multiplies so both the Heartless and the Nobody can have it, only one can keep that.
🎙️ osdanova · 1 points · Posted at 20:13:53 on December 1, 2017 · (Permalink)
But you're thinking of soul as being a property of someone. As I mentioned in the post, the soul is "not concentrated in one thing or person but it is spread everywhere and gives a life."
But, I admit I cannot argue with you here, because I have no idea about shinto's ideas, it's just what I've read online.
Sagefox2 · 1 points · Posted at 19:07:37 on December 1, 2017 · (Permalink)
Now your research is probably right and everything but I think Kingdom hearts makes more sense if it works like this.
Heart: The emotional center of the body and influences judgment
Body: A vessel that is able to house a heart and a soul.
Soul: The mind and memories of a person. I'm saying this because KH uses mind and soul interchangeably. Also the personality and life force like you've said.
Also I like to think Souls are inherent in any individual that comes into existence. So Like Roxas and Namine have their own unique souls and didn't borrow one from anyone.
🎙️ osdanova · 2 points · Posted at 19:20:21 on December 1, 2017 · (Permalink)
When does that happen? Do you have any example of it?
Hearts are inherent to everything. Ansem already explained that everything has a heart in DDD as well as Nomura did in the Director's Secret Report.
"I think of "all life has heart" as the most basic premise of KH. The heart of worlds was a great heart that gathered everything that formed those worlds: the natural things such as the trees in the forests, the oceans and rivers, the flowers and such."
Sagefox2 · 1 points · Posted at 19:49:18 on December 1, 2017 · (Permalink)
When I said that I thought it was mentioned in a report but I can't find it so I think my thoughts were on when the Wiki said so http://kingdomhearts.wikia.com/wiki/Soul . Which I know isn't credible. So the only evidence I have is when Xehanort says to lingering will "Your body submits, your heart succumbs, so why does your mind resist!" So mind seems to be a third element.
But hearts need time to grow with interactions with others and the world around them. I'm more saying souls are something people are born with. Which would explain why Sora and Roxas both had a soul at the same time.
🎙️ osdanova · 2 points · Posted at 20:10:05 on December 1, 2017 · (Permalink)*
Thing is, he doesn't say neither heart, body, mind nor soul in the original Japanese script.
He says "思念となってなお逆らい留まるというのか", which, using my horrible Japanese skills (And a dictionary) I can translate to "Does this mean you remain as a thought to oppose me?", shinen (思念) being thought, not mind. In fact, if you search for mind in Japanese you'll most likely find kokoro (心) because in Japan heart and mind are one and the same.
That is correct, however you're thinking of soul as a western term. As I said, kokoro involves heart, mind and what we'd call soul in English. It is not a question of someone thinking one way or the other, it is a question of cultural differences.