It appears you have to have money to become a farmer from scratch. My friend is going to inherit her grandparents farm and she talked about letting me rent the land to work. Maybe even let me rebuild the barn and get some animals.
naimina · 28 points · Posted at 19:40:38 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Start working for one of them families that have kids who don't wont nuthing to do with farmin. Take their place and become the son they always wanted. Get farm!
PFN78 · 25 points · Posted at 21:17:56 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
An easier, and potentially more enjoyable route, would be to marry the farmer's attractive daughter.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 04:03:34 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
Think of it as an opportunity, there are tons of hipsters who would pay good money to do it.
Just make sure to invest that money on broadband wifi, because the minute they can't post their roots, real, raw farm life on the internet, they're out.
Because non YA books never have romantic subplots.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 14:58:54 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
I also hate most non-YA books that have romantic subplots. YA novels just tend to be especially egregious about it.
Unless we're talking about Dickens or Fitzgerald, the romantic subplots almost always end in the female character losing all of her power by "giving herself" to the male protagonist. She becomes a McGuffin for the male protagonist's development and I've gotten completely sick of it in recent years, especially with shit like Twilight and 50 Shades Of Grey rising to the top.
I haven't watched/read Hunger Games all the way through yet, but I could feel a love triangle coming on near the end of the first book/movie and I was just like "nope" because I don't want to see Katniss become a whimpering idiot and the male protags unstoppable ubermenschs. It's lazy and sexist towards both genders - it paints women as useless deadweight and expects men to have all the answers and the will/ability to save the world. Both are equally harmful in my eyes.
My tolerance for bullshit has gone down dramatically since I hit my mid-20s.
Is it actually a love triangle, or more of a love chevron? I always wonder with these things.
k3n0b1 · 1 points · Posted at 21:37:46 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
The girl doesn't even show up until 2/3 of the way into the movie.
bones234 · 15 points · Posted at 21:03:53 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Honestly, Maze Runner is significantly better than Hunger Games or Divergent. It's a much more mature YA novel. It doesn't revolve around a romance or anything like that. I really, really enjoyed the series. The Kill Order (the series prequel) should definitely be saved for last, and man, is that one amazing.
Well, that's a matter of opinion. I very much enjoyed the Hunger Games, but I found that I like the Maze Runner much better.
Sure, it eludes to a little bit of a romance, but that is not any sort of driving force in the story. There is much more focus on friendships and family-type bonds.
did you happen to read maze runner when you were younger?
if i had to compare just the first book in maze runner, then yes i would say it is at the very least as good as HG. however, i think the plot became much thinner as the story progressed, making feel like the author didn't map out the idea past the first book.
HG also has a LOT of levels, love triangle, family, growing up, politics, war, etc. maze runner is really good about the whole boys are friends and are good at making a community but only in the first book. i guess i am especially bitter because the 2nd book started so good (very 'saw' like) and then just meh-ed.
PS: if you can find "Knights of Forty Islands" by Lukyanenko in english. i think you would really enjoy the read if you liked maze runner :)
I know I'm in the minority, but I LOVED Mockingjay because of the extra levels. Granted, there were still parts that made no sense and others that were heavily in cliche territory, but it's a much better book than people give it credit for.
the many levels are specifically what puts that series apart from other YA lit for me. and the fact that all those levels were connected through the whole series, not just added as an after thought, makes me respect the work that much more.
I read Maze Runner and I didn't enjoy it much. It left me feeling blah. I doubt I'll ever reread. On the other hand I've reread Hunger Games a few times. It's a nice, fun, easy read.
Wait, what? I stopped at the first book because it was too predictable. What is this twist you talk about?
Pauser · 3 points · Posted at 17:26:29 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
Eh, I don't blame you. First chapter of the first book really put me off. About 30% of the book could have been edited out and it'd be a better read. I skimmed through the whole series because the writer went to my school.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 11:49:05 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
I'm trying to find this review I read by a guy saw divergent where he does nothing but talk about about the train footage, let me get back to you on that it's fuckin great
Razanur · 12 points · Posted at 19:13:05 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
I was really not a huge fan of how anti-intellectual Divergent was. Apparently the other two get better about that, but I have no plans to read/see them regardless.
I actually just finished the first book the other day. While sickeningly full of cliches, I still enjoyed it. Easy read and something that doesn't make you think too hard (at all) but still enjoyable. Sickeningly cliche'd though.
I read Divergent for the keks, and I sure got a lot of them.
Do not plan on reading the other books, or any YA books in particular any time soon. The genre so full of shit it's amazing people can't see they're stepping in it.
...and the only thing standing in my way is self doubt. Not lack of skill or experience or ability! Because if I just believe in myself, I can achieve anything!!
[deleted] · 278 points · Posted at 16:11:17 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
"Shamron looked out over the smoldering ruins of Dystopolis. A new dawn of freedom had come at last. She smiled confidently knowing that playing spoons had defeated the Great Evil. She spun around, gently raised her right leg, and hopped away with the clickety-clackity sound of her freedom spoons ringing out over the valley."
searine · 78 points · Posted at 17:15:55 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
She was the hero the that impoverished people of the hambone district deserved.
derefr · 63 points · Posted at 18:10:15 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
It might be a retread, but it's the lesson teenage girls in particular need, a lot of the time. Self-doubt is the only thing standing in the way... of their doing well in math class.
It's a really interesting debate, isn't it? So much of pop psych of the 80s forward stresses esteem as the ultimate deciding factor in success, but from what I understand that model is a bit cart-before-the-horse-ish. Self esteem often seems to be the result, rather than the cause of other factors: opportunity, institutional support, freedom, cold hard cash. In other words, the obsession with self esteem seems like a bandaid rather than a real cure. FEELING like you can achieve anything isn't exactly going to make up for institutional disadvantage based on class or gender or race or anything else, you know?
Dunning-Kruger comes up a LOT on reddit, but I think that's because it's a way to critique a system that see self-worth as the engine rather than the result of a lot of other political/social/intellectual/artistic systems.
FEELING like you can achieve anything isn't exactly going to make up for institutional disadvantage based on class or gender or race or anything else, you know?
True, but if you lack self-esteem, you're not even going to bother to try to challenge those institutional disadvantages.
Too bad, eh? Sometimes I wish I DID live in one of those YA universes where you just need a hero, a bit of a revolution, maybe a magic sword and hey presto... totally renovated society!
naimina · 10 points · Posted at 19:09:45 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
You're missing the grey-flecked- or silver-bearded mentor who teaches our orphan hero the ways of his mystical craft.
Just because I'm bored, here's four random examples:
Salt-and-pepper-bearded ranger Halt teaches Will, an orphan ward, the ways of the Rangers. Magic sword? Close enough. Almost-magical cloak, bow, and daggers.
Silver-bearded Ben / Obi-Wan Kenobi teaches Luke, an orphan boy, the ways of the Jedi. Magic sword? Yes, lightsaber.
Silver-bearded Dumbledore teaches Harry, an orphan boy, the ways of Wizards. Magic sword? Close enough, wand.
Grey-bearded Brom teaches Eragon, an orphan boy, the ways of the Dragon Riders. Magic sword? Most certainly: Zar'roc.
I rely on a system of faking over-confidence while trying to suppress my inner crippling doubts. The former lets me work and share my work, while the latter keeps me in check. Psychologically that may not be healthy, but considering it has been working, I ain't gonna try fixing it.
Fair enough. Would you want your children to follow that system? Teaching self-confidence doesn't have to mean teaching self-confidence without accompanying work, nor does it have to mean teaching cockiness.
More recent stuff I have read have indicated that it is a type of self-esteem, in particular achievement oriented self-esteem that is beneficial and required, rather than trait oriented. However it does need to build, ie small esteem boosters for small tasks. Trait self esteem is actually a demotivator and creates focus on status rather than accomplishment.
However all of this is hearsay so do not take it into a court of law.
istara · 1 points · Posted at 00:44:10 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
FEELING like you can achieve anything isn't exactly going to make up for institutional disadvantage based on class or gender or race or anything else, you know?
Actually, quite probably, yes. There are tonnes of studies into conditioning students before exams with devastating results. Cordelia Fine's "Delusions of Gender" looks at a lot of these. They've done quite horrifying experiments telling students that they probably won't pass an exam as "girls aren't good at maths, so don't sorry" and then they hugely underperform control groups. The reverse works as well.
There are gender differences, but they're around 2-3% for example, not 10-20% (pulled specific figures out of my head, but that's the degree of difference we see from cultural conditioning). There are also stats of things like how much better girls do at maths in countries with less polarised cultural conditioning about STEM ability, eg China, Eastern Europe.
That said, I think what the whole build-self-esteem movement got wrong is that's is not about how great you are, it's how great you COULD be if you work hard etc.
It's about telling people that they have the potential to do things, not that they can't do them. And obviously you have to manage expectations to some degree, but by the time a young person is seriously thinking of becoming a fighter pilot or rocket scientist or model, it's going to become obvious to them if they need to shape their ambitions a little differently.
Not really. It reinforces the wildly unhelpful mindset that ability is innate and not the result of focused practice over time. That it's something you're born with (or not!) and if you just try it'll work out (or not!).
What do you think happens when you believe in yourself and something turns out to be... hard?
A counter narrative would hold that exceptional ability begins with early exposure and encouragement to continue, which some people have (priviledge!) and some people do not. While privilege helps, ability is something you can earn through effort, and that effort is something you can control.
You are not "the one". But anyone could be, if they wanted to.
derefr · 9 points · Posted at 20:52:01 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)*
Ah, I think I've misspoken. I don't mean that "self-confidence is all you need to be successful", as if willpower were the sole determinant of every other trait.
I meant that for some people—teenage girls, mostly—they actually have everything else (all the privilege required to set up good positive feedback loops, all the natural talent to get a good start), and their lack of self-confidence is literally the only thing stopping them from achieving their potential.
There are studies where they give girls a math test, and prime some of them with a story that reminds them of their gender, while priming others with a story where gender is irrelevant. The girls who get the gender-irrelevant story do better on the test than the girls who don't—and they also do better than control. Sometimes, people just aren't trying because they don't think they [as a member of reference class X] "should" be able to do something, even when they [as an individual] are perfectly capable of doing that thing.
lack of self-confidence is literally the only thing stopping them from achieving their potential
Well, sort of. That's edging into tautology. The only reason they don't achieve is that they don't achieve. Ok, but why?
derefr · 1 points · Posted at 23:01:10 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
I guess I'm not too concerned with how people lose justified self-confidence, and what can be done to prevent that (someone else can tackle that problem; it sounds sociological and likely intensely parental in nature.) I'm more concerned that there are people who've already lost their self-confidence, and what external media-depiction-level interventions can help those people.
Or even better, an 'obscure' characteristic that requires no talent but I seem to be the only one that has it. Me and this handsome boy that I don't totally understand but he totally loves me!
veganon · 11 points · Posted at 16:20:55 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
You pretty much just described the classic hero archetype.
Yeah, seriously, this isn't exclusive to YA Dystopia fiction, it's a variant of Chekhov's gun, which has become part of the run-of-the-mill Hero's Journey story.
Iggapoo · 95 points · Posted at 16:56:38 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
I'm too busy fighting the Regime to think about love. No matter what Dylon and Luque confessed to me.
Iggapoo · 70 points · Posted at 16:57:55 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
I'll just sit here with my long, flowing red hair, thinking of ways to escape The City.
Iggapoo · 60 points · Posted at 17:00:29 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
I grew up with Luque; he's like a brother to me. But that kiss didn't feel like brotherly concern.
Iggapoo · 56 points · Posted at 17:01:02 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
But Dylon works for the Commander. How much can I really trust him?
Iggapoo · 46 points · Posted at 17:03:37 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
I just turned 18 which means I can finally leave the prison ship. But that means I have to leave mom and dad.
I've had an idea for a dystopian setting for a while, and went through these tweets like a checklist to see how many I was using. Started out pretty good, but then quickly went downhill. I think some of these, like the Infalliable System, are so deeply rooted in the genre they are almost impossible to avoid.
Tropes aren't a bad thing. They help readers understand and have expectations for certain genres. To avoid the "cliche" aspect of it, I think it's more about execution and carefully structuring/subverting some of the expectations.
Kiram · 32 points · Posted at 18:25:17 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Tropes, and even cliches, can be used really effectively as well. Do you have something that you really don't want to spend a whole lot of time building up and discussing, because it's honestly not that big a part of the story, but it does serve some purpose? Drop a cliche in there. People will know it's a cliche, obviously, but that means they will get the point and be able to move on to more important stuff all the quicker.
You see this in more narrow genres all the time. My favorite is Kung-Fu movies. You need a big, final-ish climactic fight between good guy and bad guy? Of course you do, the fights are kind of what this genre is based around. So, you could spend a ton of time, detailing why both the hero and villain lose their various weapons, advantages, and disadvantages... or you could make it so that the Dragon has a penchant for dropping his guns and knives and beating people to death with his own hands.
Yeah, it's cliche as hell, but man is it a time-saver. Plus, the only real exposition you need to do about that fact is to have our Dragon get into a similar fight with a lesser good guy, and beat him senseless. This also serves to prove how badass the Dragon is, and sets him up as a credible threat for later in the movie. Two birds, one cliche, and the audience is happy, because while detailed backstories and such are kind of nice, we all know we are here to watch people take boots to the face.
If you do it right, you can get what I like to call the "purist" genre movies/stories. These are books/movies/whatever that know exactly what they are getting into, and don't make any attempt to change up expectations. They just set out to make a really good version of whatever it is they wanted to do. I mentioned Martial Arts films because we don't often think about the tropes they use, the fact that the tropes are super obvious once you think about them, but more importantly, because I have the perfect example waiting for me.
Anyone here who is a Martial Arts Film fan should have already watched the Raid. If you haven't, stop reading and go do it now. But before you do, go take a peak at the TVTropes page for Kung-Fu movies. You can have a gigantic list of tropes, and this movie hits like... all of them. But that doesn't stop it from being a really, really good movie. Because it's using it's cliches as shortcuts, not as crutches. It's a slim difference, but holy hell when it comes together, it really works.
But that doesn't stop it from being a really, really good movie. Because it's using it's cliches as shortcuts, not as crutches. It's a slim difference, but holy hell when it comes together, it really works.
I was shouting AMEN like I was one of those extras in a stereotypical black church scene.
This is so incredibly what cliches are supposed to be like and HOW they're supposed to be used.
Regarding the black church scene: like lots of stereotypes, it's actually pretty true to life.
One day my dad was a guest preacher at a local black church, and it really did look like something out of a movie. One guy would do this little shuffle back and forth in the rear of the sanctuary, other people would clap or shout "Glow-ry!" or "Ay-MEN, preacha!" And there would always be the older ladies in ornate hats that would just shake their head, raise one hand and wave it, and murmur "mmm-MMM!" while fanning themselves.
It was actually a lot of fun to be there, because I was used to churchgoers being a lot more image-conscious and emotionally restrained. Being around these people that were just completely immersed in the message and the moment was refreshing.
Sorry for the long aside, you sparked a memory that made me smile. :)
And now you've provided us with another example. You could have used a whole paragraph to explain your reaction, but just by saying "black church extra AMEN" we all understand it perfectly.
MrHav0k · 25 points · Posted at 16:58:08 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
That is the best explanation of tropes I have ever seen!
A friend of mine wrote a fantasy book. It had good ideas, but between using every overused fantasy cliche and naming his characters after people we both know it ruined it for me.
I was wondering about the naming bit, actually. The names are short and fit the characters really well, but they might hit too close to home... What's the general rule on that?
I'm not the one to ask :) In all honesty, it would've been a bad book without the names -- the names were just oddly places. The lands had typical strange fantasy names, and then they run into some guy named Charlie the archer. I dunno, just doesn't fit.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 21:45:36 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
One of my favorite movies is John Hughes' first - 16 Candles. It looked like a typical teen movie, but he turned all the cliches on their heads. The geek was coolest guy of all who really understood women, the jock was actually sensitive and a nice guy, the cheerleader was vapid but willing to change for the better, the mother was a good person, the dad wasn't an idiot, the grandparents weren't the wise old folks with all the answers, etc. He used the teen movie template, but it was obvious that he tried for exactly the opposite in each case, which kept you guessing. I've often thought about that while writing.
What people miss about 1984 is that its dictatorship is self-sustaining. It never openly puts everyone through the wringer or defies its citizens to dare revolt. It's stable. MiniLove is not some high-minded and charismatic organization, imagining it's building a better world - it's an immune system. It serves the state without question or apology.
Even the Inner Party, selected from the most loyal youth, is an artificial boundary whose members have no real power advantage. O'Brien was no less observed than Winston. If he harbored secret misgivings based on the few secrets he was trusted with, he'd be found out and dealt with, just the same.
As terrible as IngSoc is, and as openly vile its true intentions were, it was entrenched. If your system can be overthrown by plucky teenagers who found out some obvious secret yesterday then it would not have survived this long. Make your system's ruthlessness serve its stability, then give your protagonist some deus-ex-machina the system genuinely couldn't predict. Hope and moxy are the first things a murderous autocracy will learn to crush.
Certainly true, but 1984 doesn't have the heroic-cycle jammed into into it. It averts the need to have some kind of innate weakness because it ends with "He loved Big Brother." Writing heroic victories without cliche is a near-impossible task.
1984 doesn't have the heroic-cycle jammed into into it.
Only because Winston fails. Averting that would take a modicum of power or luck that the otherwise ruthlessly effective system would not foresee. Done simply, this is just deus ex machina, like Lyra avoiding separation from her daemon purely by good timing. Done well, it can be an ironic twist, wherein The State's own dogma turns back on them due to "acts of god" that snowball to confound the stable order of things.
But if we are going for realism, a perfectly self-sustaining system of control is not much more realistic than the plucky teenagers toppling it.
In a any system, people screw up. In a big enough system there are enough accidents, workarounds and exploitation that the stronger thing that keeps it going is the belief that it works somehow, or at least a cohesive policing system, which depends on the former. If you take that away it all falls apart.
You can generously have a perfect system of control for a few generations, but this perfect control is nothing that can be imagined or maintained by mortal, flawed humans.
I had a good idea, but then I read The Road and figured it wasn't worth the effort.
Trodamus · 15 points · Posted at 16:03:37 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Nothing wrong with starting with a broken, "falliable" system and going from there, is there?
I can see it now: people are poor, dirty and tired, there's unrest and shit, and only these special teenagers can fix things.
Ending would be making a shitty Infalliable System that begets another YA novel.
[deleted] · 9 points · Posted at 22:38:53 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Ha, same here. Except I don't have a love triangle. I work with kids. Girls and boys really hate the love triangle crap. I assume that publishers think it sells well because it's thrown into books that would otherwise sell well (like Hunger Games).
Also, the whole gated community thing applies. But that trope goes beyond YA fiction. It's a pretty old trope, actually. It's similar to leaving your home/village/city the first time and the new experiences that come with it.
Teslok · 2 points · Posted at 01:51:18 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
The triangle hit "standard" as far as YA fiction because of all the Twilight fangirls being rabidly "team edward" or "team jacob." They're almost unavoidable now.
I think some of these, like the Infalliable System, are so deeply rooted in the genre they are almost impossible to avoid
Remember, the concept of the Infallible System is how real-life dystopias manage to start and continue to run; there's nothing wrong with employing one in your own work.
If you really want to pursue it then you have to study and analyze the best of the genre and figure out what they did that worked before it was all a cliche and why they did it originally.
Read 1984 and Animal Farm to start with and then read the Hunger Games and this piece of crap Divergent and see what's stolen, what's copied, what wasn't copied (probably plenty of gold that they figured was too overcomplicated for Teens, which means definitely steal it for your own stuff because it's probably much better), etc etc
Before reading Divergent I had not read any dystopias. Any at all. Sure, I was frustrated at some plot aspects and how the characters behaved, but I read the book in a day and liked it.
Googling "Infallible System" comes up with 'Infallible Systems Limited' which is a roofing company in the UK.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:10:23 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Well, there are plenty of different ways of handling something, many of which emerge off of a different higher-level treatment of what's actually happening behind the scenes, but which can result in some of the same "dystopic YA" flavor.
For example, maybe the controlling force is various patron gods of a city who seek out worthy individuals with particular attributes to accrue power and influence as more dedicated servants, but who ultimately all serve the same damaging system. Or some extradimensional force which swoops in at unexpected moments and makes cruel demands, which basically has human social structures and governments cowed and transforms human society as a result.
JPLR · 1 points · Posted at 03:25:10 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
Blame Orwell. Or don't, I mean at least he was original after all...
🎙️ jae_bird · 68 points · Posted at 14:22:30 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
sethg · 133 points · Posted at 17:06:00 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
It’s as if these books are being read by teenagers who believe that the entire course of their adult life is going to be determined by their scores on tests that were composed and graded by distant bureaucrats. Who on earth could have put that idea in their minds?
Ender's Game and The Giver both use this trope, too. I would guess that The Giver is the biggest culprit for why the trope appears so much in current YA sci-fi.
I think the visuals for the movie are trying to capitalize on the popularity of stuff like Divergent, even though the book predates it by a lot. It was fairly common assigned reading in middle school for people my age.
[deleted] · 7 points · Posted at 22:08:30 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
I remember finishing it much more quickly than the rest of my class (like a month or something). The teacher had his doubts. He took me into the hall and asked me about the ending. I had been thinking of it and talked for like 20 minutes about the ambiguity and how it is both comforting and unsettling depending on how you approach it. He said I should read less. Fun times.
I can't remember the title, but there was this awful YA trilogy I read in middle school where they overthrow a government that bases everything around tests, and then spend the next two books taking more tests that I think are supernatural.
At least Red Rising made its "big test" interesting. It combined the best of Battle School from Ender's Game with a setting similar to a Hunger Games map.
Clichés can be tiresome, and some of these definitely need to be retired (at least for a while). But I feel like a lot of these clichés are going to be necessary in YA because they express feelings their readers grapple with everyday, perhaps without the clarity of thought to recognize it.
[deleted] · 5 points · Posted at 00:51:09 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)*
everything in the first 2 books was a lie. someone fucked up a medical experiment hundreds of years ago and made people into stupid caricatures of each "caste". They really WERE born into the categories.
The divergents were just the now "mutants" born without the brain alteration. AKA Tris was the only normal human being.
There were people watching the whole time from the outside. Normal people. Like the whole rest of the world was not split into these castes. Detecting the divergents was only important because they apparently had thrown their hands up about trying to fix the brain issue and decided to just "wait and see how many generations it took to wear off" or something.
Tris dies in the end in a completely pointless way that made 0 sense and had 0 emotional pull. And it kept switching the narrator to 4, but you couldn't tell the difference between their voices.
Also in the "big end" they just wipe the memories of the people who were controlling them from the outside. As if wiping the memory of the 100 people in the lab was going to solve their problems forever. That was the cause that Tris died for. I don't really even know why they did it. They didn't leave the town in the end either.
It also ret-conned a lot of stuff that happened in the first 2 books and it was obvious the author pulled it all out of her ass as the "OMG TWIST ENDING!"
The sad part is, if someone wrote "A Dystopian Young Adult Novel" and filled it with the same biting bitterness these tweets carry, I would read the hell out of it.
🎙️ jae_bird · 8 points · Posted at 22:55:35 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Go pick it back out of the bin. Find the things that don't fit the stereotypes. Write them. Then find the things that do, that you liked, and fucking OWN them. Then rewrite and refine and publish.
Yikes. Some of these hit a little too close to home. The "Train" one caught me off guard. What stories include the "first time riding the Train" plot point besides Harry Potter?
You're right! I forgot about that. I don't remember Katniss' first time on the train as an essential or pivotal moment. But both Harry Potter and Hunger Games used a train as a recurring setting throughout their stories. It's really just the YA fantasy fallback for travel.
[deleted] · 84 points · Posted at 15:00:23 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
It's a fatalistic device: you are headed on a one way track toward whatever shit you have to deal with, and you have time to think about it.
[deleted] · 7 points · Posted at 18:04:22 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Yup, and it being the first time shows the reader how the character is not in their normal setting whatsoever.
Trains work for dystopian books because they don't rely on gas or technology to run, and they require very little explanation. Also, train travel harkens back to a "time before" but not too specifically.
Also, yea, all that symbolism stuff.
[deleted] · 39 points · Posted at 15:47:13 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
I'd also add that it's final. You get on the train, there's no diverting it anywhere; it's stuck on the tracks until you get to your destination. It's fairly ominous to head into danger on one. There's just no turning around.
Trodamus · 23 points · Posted at 16:00:31 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Makes sense. It's travel that teenagers can do without having to give a shit about it and it's passive enough that plot can happen without tapping out one character or another.
I suppose one could argue that the Wizarding World was still in a state of recovery from the reign of Voldemort. That and the bureaucracy. So much bureaucracy.
[deleted] · 22 points · Posted at 16:47:20 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)*
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 22:11:14 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
It feels more like torture than mastery.
[deleted] · 9 points · Posted at 16:44:50 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Luckily not as bad as Star Wars.
tc1991 · 6 points · Posted at 17:01:02 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
There wasn't that much bureaucracy in Harry Potter, no Ofsted inspections, no Health and Safety, no diversity awareness training or coffee cup carrying certification...
I know this is kinda out of place in this sub but I'm reminded of SNL's hilarious Group Hopper sketch.
Rekthor · 61 points · Posted at 18:32:11 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
You know, just once, can we see a dystopian novel where the heroic resistance are really just a bunch of glory-boy twats mislead by some ideology to think that the massive totalitarian state is actually the bad guys, when in reality they're the good guys? There aren't enough stories where we see a defense of that Hobbes-ian version of the world, which claims that any government, no matter how tyrannical, is always better than anarchy.
Or you could take it to a meta level. For example, you know how every single massive dystopian state is brought down by a bunch of teenagers wearing coats two sizes too big? Why don't we have our main character be a 45 year old, single man (channeling Arthur Dent) whose job it is to consistently stop poorly thought-out revolutionary attempts by teenagers and twenty-somethings? And 30% of the novel is just him playing straight man while he shoots revolutionaries in the sewer who are trying to kill the power to the whole city.
I really appreciated that the third Hunger Games book [spoilers]
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ran with this a bit, by showing that the District 13 people who Katniss works with aren't fundamentally any better than the government currently in place. It was necessary to disrupt the current system, but the revolutionaries weren't painted as righteousness personified. It was very much a case of "Anyone who wants power that badly shouldn't have it."
[deleted] · 22 points · Posted at 20:26:04 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
In responce to your story about the middle aged man fighting revolutionaries...what about a 40 something year old man whose marriage is in a slump whose job it is to hunt down and kill androids that are basically slaves to a terrible system biased against them?
If you're being sarcastic, I understand, though to be fair, I speak it more than I detect it. If you're not, it's called Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep and it's by Phillip K Dick. The movie version is also well done though there are moments of extreme futility in the book that didn't make the transition to the screen.
Nope, completely serious, thanks. I'll check it out.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 16:26:54 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
"Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?" By Philip K Dick.
They based blade runner off of it lol. Blade Runner is very different from do androids dream but they work on similar themes and should almost be considered companion pieces lol.
Kiram · 32 points · Posted at 22:10:11 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
I have this idea for a YA-dystopia style novel kicking around in my head. It would follow two separate, parallel stories of young people rallying against their dystopian society, only for the reveal to come that one if then was in the past, and the other is currently rebelling against the society that the first one set up, or helped to set up. Maybe even have the first hero still alive, but with a greater understanding of the compromises required to make the world actually function.
As a political theory major and YA fan, this sounds awesome.
Kiram · 3 points · Posted at 01:05:45 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
I've had the idea for a long while now, after studying how after basically 90% of violent revolutions, the government Chaves, but conditions don't necessarily get better.
apotcha · 2 points · Posted at 04:31:18 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
The love triangles in YA in general kills me. It just keeps happening. ALL OF THEM. ALL OF THEM HAVE A LOVE TRIANGLE. It is like the bread and butter of their plot line too.
I'm gonna take it as "these are clichés you see a lot; try not to use too many of them" and hope for the best.
thudly · 10 points · Posted at 16:58:42 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
There's a reason why people notice deja vu when it happens in real life. It snaps you out of whatever trance you were in. You don't want your readers to be snapped out of the story spell by a clunky cliche.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:21:50 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Lol.
Be aware of clichés and use them well. Know when they're effective to your story and use them then, and know when they're a replacement for a better idea and avoid them.
Yeah, at the moment, I'm reading more YA romance books to figure out what the usual tropes are, and seeing where they work and where they don't, and learning to identify them when I come across them. The last time I wanna do is ruin my story with a badly-used cliché.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 06:01:08 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)*
In Divergent it actually explicitly says when she's doing close combat training that she's definitely weaker than the boys. She manages to sort of hold her own eventually, but she never gets to be Buffy.
RaeNezL · 10 points · Posted at 20:01:19 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Agreed. Divergent states multiple times that Tris has to rely on cunning, speed, and sometimes tricks in order to beat her opponents. And several times she either scrapes by or she fails fantastically. That's actually one of the things I liked about Tris.
Divergent keeps Tris at a level of physical ability that's believable for me. It doesn't take the trope of a girl who becomes capable (which she does!) and make her superhero capable to the point she's besting boys twice her size on sheer power alone.
[deleted] · 8 points · Posted at 18:23:27 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 02:12:16 on February 13, 2015 · (Permalink)
But consider her diet. Thanks to the mad hunting and gathering skills she's eating better than many of her peers. She's out in the fresh air getting exercise. It does kind of make sense that she'd be strong in comparison to some of her less well-fed male peers.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 22:28:50 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
I read a lot of YA fiction (I work with kids. I have to be "cool" and know what they're reading). The girls are never really on par with physical strength of boys, but they are usually more agile than the boys.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 17:02:08 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
So formulaic it's like narrative Sweet N Low. Won't stop anybody from reading though!
owennb · 20 points · Posted at 14:37:10 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
If you understand the clichés of the genre, you can subvert them. Maybe your dystopia takes place in what used to be Australia... Wait, Mad Max.
[deleted] · 5 points · Posted at 16:52:30 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Also Total Recall. Although that is more of a post-apocalyptic, I guess?
nashife · 6 points · Posted at 18:00:46 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
There is a lot of overlap between post-apocalyptic and dystopia.
terradi · 9 points · Posted at 15:11:56 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
No. But they are often predictable because they're so common. Sometimes that's okay, sometimes you want to subvert tropes or put a bit of a twist on them to come up with your own thing.
That's not to say you can't use one or two though, past that point it's just annoying.
thudly · 14 points · Posted at 14:43:00 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
There are certain story tropes that are always used, and have been used throughout history. It could be called cliche for a bad guy to get comeuppance in the end, but that's always going to be popular. But if a story is just a cobbled-together collection of cliches written purely to capitalize on trends, most people are going to be too distracted by the familiarity to be lost in the story.
I guess there will always be a market for these books being sold to a new generation of early readers who haven't been beaten to death with these cliches yet. If a tired cliche is new to you, you'll still be lost in the story. But in the grand scheme of things, your story will be forgotten. It's better to be original.
Rekthor · 3 points · Posted at 18:38:21 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
I wouldn't go so far as to say that a cliche is always bad, but you need to put your own spin on it to make it passable, let alone good.
thudly · 2 points · Posted at 18:41:47 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)*
Some cliches are alright. But they're usually always going to break the fourth wall with an experienced reader.
A woman I know published a book, and right on page one, she had the main character look herself over in the mirror in order to establish what she looked like. I cringed. "No! Don't!"
Desuko · 1 points · Posted at 22:14:25 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Didn't Divergent do that with Tris' hair being brushed?
thudly · 1 points · Posted at 00:32:44 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
I haven't read Divergent, but I know that's one of the most tired cliche's from romance novels there is.
"She looked at herself in the mirror. Her blonde hair was perfect. Her blue eyes looked ravishing. Her breasts were full and tempting in her low-cut black dress."
The point of it is to show instead of telling, but you're basically telling anyway, so why not just say she's blonde, has blue eyes, and big knockers, or whatever.
thudly · -1 points · Posted at 17:02:38 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
A hammer was still a hammer for the very first guy to use one. But when you're the first to use a cliche, there are not as many negative consequences, because it's not a known cliche, yet.
I'm sorry, I disagree, a cliche is something that, by its very nature, is overused - it's not that it's not a known cliche, it's simply not a cliche at all until it becomes overused
thudly · 0 points · Posted at 17:32:18 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
A cliche could also be considered an idea that's so generic it leaves itself open to overuse. But something that's so specific and unique it could never become a cliche because its re-use would be obvious cannot be called a cliche. Therefore, a cliche can still be a cliche, even on its very first use, at least by my definition.
No. Nothing is inherently a cliché. It becomes a cliché through use. And nothing is too unique to get overused. Once upon a time, an angsty pretty-boy vampire in love with a human woman was unique.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 16:27:27 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
You don't have to be first, cliches are fine if not overused in a work. Pretty much everything is a cliche now.
If they are used to the point where anyone reading the first half of your book pretty much know how the second half is going to go without having to read it, then yeah. If you're book is cliched, but still unpredictable, it's usually fine. It mostly depends on how well read your readership is.
Cliché isn't an objective thing - it's a word used to express the opinion that something lacks originality or is overused. What makes something actually lack originality or feel overused, has more to do with how careful, deliberate, or sloppy/lazy the author is with the techniques he uses in his craft. E.g. stormy weather may be used to signal a time of turmoil and tension - and depending on how the writer uses it can either fall into the background consciousness of the reader or it can stand out like a huge cliché.
I don't think they're a bad thing at all for YA fiction. All YA and children's books are going to seem full of tropes to an adult. The actual target readers are new around here. They're struggling with those issues for the first time. Most 'grownup' writing is the same in theme, just more subtly written.
nashife · 1 points · Posted at 18:04:40 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Not necessarily bad, no. Think of them like the common conventions and patterns in the genre. Successfully or effectively using a trope/cliche has to do with how you execute it. Is your way of telling this kind of story fresh and original? Do you ADD to the genre somehow with your original take on these themes?
Or did you just write yet-another-story-that's-the-same-as-all-the-rest?
Following the tropes and satisfying your audience's expectations can be INCREDIBLY lucrative (thus you see so many movie deals for pretty conventional stories), but may earn scorn from writers who think "selling out" is shameful.
I was forced to watch Divergent by my sister. I feel that a lot of the movie had a metric fuckton of wasted space. The story doesn't even begin until near the end. I'm not sure if the source material wasted that much time, but god damn that movie was an abomination.
But these were the kinds of stories in the YA category that I ate up when I was her age as well. Adults are problematic, blah blah blah. Of course, at the same time, I've been trying to write my own stories for a long time, and even then I would recognize tropes, cliches, and the like, and especially if something was horribad I would openly criticize it.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:20:32 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
This post made my day.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:26:42 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Xyyzx · 2 points · Posted at 01:21:12 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)*
You know, I went to see Ex Machina at the cinema the other day (fantastic film by the way) and attached was a hilarious trailer for one of the latest adaptations of a YA dystopian fantasy/sci-fi series, in which I reckoned every single line spoken was a well trodden cliché.
...I was going to link it here but there are so many similar movies currently in production and it was so totally generic in every respect that I can't find the damned thing.
And what? Its in The Republic so it must be true? Utter nonsense. In The Apology Socrates says that poets are like diviners, who say many fine things from a kind of inspiration or genius.
Oh man no! I was not being serious - the twitter account was made for humor as was my comment. I'm sorry if it seemed like I was being genuine. I enjoy a good portion of poetry!
I often think that the reason that so much science fiction is dystopian fiction comes from a bit of a lack of imagination and historical arrogance. The implication is that the society that I live in right now today is the best society there could ever be, so if a future society is different from my society in any way, then there must secretly be something horribly wrong with it.
It would be interesting to see what people think about the various genres. Does anyone know of a funny yet true list of cliches, like this one, for adult science fiction??
MShades · 1 points · Posted at 03:31:57 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
I read some of these (and some of the comments), and then my colleague sent me this: The Quiz Broadcast
Raltie · 1 points · Posted at 05:45:30 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
I'm so so so glad that none of these fit my own writing
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 07:33:58 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)*
I always knew that I'd love both dystopian and YA genre. I almost never read one o like though. The lack of self awareness in most of them is unbelievable.
What bothers me the most is when the are written by people who clearly never lived in disorder. You just read it and know that the only time they didn't live without running water was for some overseas "now I'm authentic" tour.
Then again my own story has at least one cliché that is in it. So. A bit of a spin but still.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 08:06:46 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
I'm currently writing a screenplay set in a very monotone and boring end of the world scenario, trying to aovid nearly every trope I can. So far I only count two of these that I've hit dead on.
I find it funny I'm trying to write my characters to be as boring and normal as possible.
SeeFree · -4 points · Posted at 15:13:47 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
I really don't see a problem. I don't know if the "there are 7 kinds of stories" thing has been examined in this sub or not. Regardless, good writing doesn't have to be original. Just repackage the stuff we like in pleasing new ways and we'll be happy.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 16:22:39 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
SeeFree · 4 points · Posted at 16:27:12 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)*
I guess so. Yikes. Look at all these downboats! Stories about adolescents dealing with the weirdness and wonder of transitioning from children to adults while living in a dystopic society are entertaining. The market for them isn't going away. Circlejerking about cliches and pretending you're a serious writer is more fun though, I guess.
A solid chunk of this sub writes genre fiction anyway, so I have no idea what this high horse nonsense is all about. (It's bad if teen girls like it, I guess.) It's not like you're all Jonathan Franzen here.
sgtoox · -3 points · Posted at 00:21:58 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
I didn't subscribe to this subreddit so I could be smug and laugh at other people's writing.
Of course it will be tripe, it is Young Author literature. Why on earth would anyone even waste time looking through this? It is like people ironically watching Jersey Shore. Whether you are doing it because you enjoy it or because you love making fun of it, either way, you are still reading/watching tripe. WHich is fine, but then posting it on here to have a circle-jerk laugh about it is obnoxious. IF people want to waste their time reading drivel, let them, no need to go around and show everyone else "Hey look at this awful writing everyone, what a laugh!"
sethg · 1 points · Posted at 02:31:28 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
As with any other genre, there is some excellent YA out there. Scott Westerfeld is good even when he writes a dystopian novel (Pretties and its sequels). The Hunger Games IMHO actually wasn’t so bad. But YA, like any other genre, also has its share of disposable trend-following pap that deserves to be mocked.
sgtoox · 1 points · Posted at 03:24:54 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
While every genre will certainly have masterpieces among them. Overall, let's be serious, you are not going to be getting the same caliber of literature as say 19th century Russian literature, or early 20th century American literature etc. etc.
I doubt anyone picks up a YA book expecting prose on par with Lolita, or character depth on par with Dostoevsky. WHich doesn't mean there aren't incredibly good YA books out there. But to post YA writing, from twitter nonetheless, and then proceed to lambaste it for its boorishness, seems silly. It would be much nicer and much more unexpected to post YA lit, from a twitter feed, that is great, and then we could talk about how innovative and great it is, instead of making smug remarks.
You do realize that a lot of classic literature started out as YA, right? The novel was for a long time seen as "frivolous" and unfit for high-brow consumption, and what is now considered "classic" was once just as ridiculed and reviled as modern YA lit is today.
Of course The Brothers Karamazov isn't written in the same style as Harry Potter, but that's perfectly fine. It would be dreadful if every single book out there was written like a Dostoevsky novel. Its initial audience doesn't mean Harry Potter is inherently less deserving of admiration or praise, or that its presence on a bookshelf leaves less room for "the classics". Good writing is good writing, no matter the genre.
Critcho · 0 points · Posted at 08:39:46 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
By calling it 'tripe' and 'drivel' you're actually being a lot more aloof and insulting to the genre than the twitter account is.
sgtoox · 1 points · Posted at 14:39:06 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
Yes, but I didn't repost it to a subreddit for the sole purpose to making fun of it.
[deleted] · -9 points · Posted at 18:12:37 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
This is literally just the plot of good books that the autor wished they wrote but is instead writing them down as cliches. Its like saying that writing a book about a bunch of wizard kids at a boarding school is cliche. No, its not been done much, but its been done right. Its not cliche, its just done.
No, this is just literally every SF dystopian cliche ever mixed in with an obligatory scoop of awkward-coming-of-age cliches, because you can't do YA dystopia (or YA anything) without some awkward coming of age.
[deleted] · 564 points · Posted at 14:50:39 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
"she reminds me of a metaphor for my childhood innocence" LOL
smiles134 · 7 points · Posted at 05:53:45 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
That was my favorite haha
Weed_O_Whirler · 447 points · Posted at 15:32:24 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
I'm sure lots of YA novels have some of these cliches, but I'm pretty sure Divergent is one of the few that has all of these cliches.
[deleted] · 265 points · Posted at 16:28:48 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)*
[deleted]
paranoiainc · 161 points · Posted at 17:32:58 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)*
tits_hemingway · 167 points · Posted at 18:54:00 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
I grew up in a rural community. It is literally a crisis right now that no teenager in their right mind is choosing to be a farmer.
Everybody-thought-it · 60 points · Posted at 18:57:18 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Is it weird then that I would have liked to become a farmer?
DoctorWSG · 70 points · Posted at 19:09:45 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
That sweet, sweet corn subsidy money...
traitorousleopard · 50 points · Posted at 19:14:19 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
You could make more money by not growing alfalfa.
PM_ME_UR_FAV_SCENERY · 22 points · Posted at 19:36:43 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Teach me, Milo
lasrith · 3 points · Posted at 01:12:20 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
But what about the rabbits?
Everybody-thought-it · 14 points · Posted at 19:27:06 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Actually were I'm from they pay you to not grow corn. Guess there are to many growers up north.
PFN78 · 7 points · Posted at 21:17:06 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
You could be a rebel/hipster and try growing organic, free-trade, no-cruelty soybeans fertilized with organic, PCP-free cow manure from non-rBGH cows.
rafikikiki · 7 points · Posted at 22:31:42 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
stupid youth trying to minimize the harm caused to humans, animals, and the earth
_MUY · 6 points · Posted at 22:45:32 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
The only choice is to set up an overbearing dictatorship which oppresses them into doing things Our Way.
Reeeltalk · 1 points · Posted at 03:04:12 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
Makes sense to me.
TreePlusTree · 2 points · Posted at 11:18:07 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
Except cows are a major source of greenhouse gasses and soy is terrible for you (estrogen, estrogen everywhere)
[deleted] · 9 points · Posted at 20:52:29 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
[deleted] · 23 points · Posted at 07:28:55 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
the_unfinished_I · 3 points · Posted at 07:59:25 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
I grew up on a five acre hobby farm with 30 sheep - I think it could've been classed as minimal work.
Everybody-thought-it · 1 points · Posted at 22:28:38 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
I think that's what most of us will end up doing. Maybe selling the excess at the farmers market and getting the cheap thrill.
BasketCaseSensitive · 6 points · Posted at 20:21:08 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Some young adults are looking into WOOFing.
Everybody-thought-it · 3 points · Posted at 22:31:42 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
I love the idea of this and I would be all over it but I got married and started popping out kids so its gotta wait a while for me.
pizzaboy420 · 2 points · Posted at 04:51:35 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
It was fun. Lots of weed smoking and German girls. Oh yeah.. and bailing hay and slaughtering chickens.
naimina · 3 points · Posted at 19:15:13 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Well why don't you become one?
Everybody-thought-it · 26 points · Posted at 19:25:44 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
It appears you have to have money to become a farmer from scratch. My friend is going to inherit her grandparents farm and she talked about letting me rent the land to work. Maybe even let me rebuild the barn and get some animals.
naimina · 28 points · Posted at 19:40:38 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Start working for one of them families that have kids who don't wont nuthing to do with farmin. Take their place and become the son they always wanted. Get farm!
PFN78 · 25 points · Posted at 21:17:56 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
An easier, and potentially more enjoyable route, would be to marry the farmer's attractive daughter.
TreePlusTree · 2 points · Posted at 11:19:16 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
Or just bang her and get shot. Could be worth it
Hurion · 2 points · Posted at 11:19:38 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
THEN HERE'S A COUPLE OF "ACHERS"!
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 04:03:34 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
Think of it as an opportunity, there are tons of hipsters who would pay good money to do it.
Just make sure to invest that money on broadband wifi, because the minute they can't post their roots, real, raw farm life on the internet, they're out.
dontknowmeatall · 2 points · Posted at 12:58:19 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
Huh. Interesting.
I might start a cult with this premise.
Puffy_Ghost · 2 points · Posted at 23:41:57 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Automation will take care of that.
terriblehashtags · 124 points · Posted at 18:06:36 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)*
This is amazing. "Choose a Faction, all named after a different SAT word."
Edit: "Older boys who tell you how special you are on the inside."
[deleted] · 55 points · Posted at 18:35:59 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)*
[deleted]
terriblehashtags · 20 points · Posted at 19:02:57 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Oh, now I'm onto "Maze Runner." This is brilliant. ("She said we were important. What are we supposed to do now?")
Guess I won't grab that book after all for my brain candy.
k3n0b1 · 24 points · Posted at 20:14:52 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
I watched Maze Runner the other night and I thought it was pretty good. There wasn't any romance in it and had a little bit of a Lord of the Flies.
terriblehashtags · 18 points · Posted at 20:30:56 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Wait, it's a YA novel, right? And there's a token chick involved. How can this be?
CrazyCatLady108 · 16 points · Posted at 21:35:56 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
there is a love triangle, but it happens in book 2
[deleted] · 17 points · Posted at 21:39:40 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Interest: gone.
CrazyCatLady108 · 1 points · Posted at 22:08:03 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
if you have to, read the first one and leave it at that. you wont get all the answers but it's a good read.
snipawolf · 1 points · Posted at 07:22:43 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
Because non YA books never have romantic subplots.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 14:58:54 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
I also hate most non-YA books that have romantic subplots. YA novels just tend to be especially egregious about it.
Unless we're talking about Dickens or Fitzgerald, the romantic subplots almost always end in the female character losing all of her power by "giving herself" to the male protagonist. She becomes a McGuffin for the male protagonist's development and I've gotten completely sick of it in recent years, especially with shit like Twilight and 50 Shades Of Grey rising to the top.
I haven't watched/read Hunger Games all the way through yet, but I could feel a love triangle coming on near the end of the first book/movie and I was just like "nope" because I don't want to see Katniss become a whimpering idiot and the male protags unstoppable ubermenschs. It's lazy and sexist towards both genders - it paints women as useless deadweight and expects men to have all the answers and the will/ability to save the world. Both are equally harmful in my eyes.
My tolerance for bullshit has gone down dramatically since I hit my mid-20s.
pikeamus · 3 points · Posted at 09:36:09 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
Is it actually a love triangle, or more of a love chevron? I always wonder with these things.
k3n0b1 · 1 points · Posted at 21:37:46 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
The girl doesn't even show up until 2/3 of the way into the movie.
bones234 · 15 points · Posted at 21:03:53 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Honestly, Maze Runner is significantly better than Hunger Games or Divergent. It's a much more mature YA novel. It doesn't revolve around a romance or anything like that. I really, really enjoyed the series. The Kill Order (the series prequel) should definitely be saved for last, and man, is that one amazing.
CrazyCatLady108 · 13 points · Posted at 21:34:54 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
better than divergent, sure. but not hunger games. especially not the 3rd maze runner.
and yes there is romance, mountain climbing with the special 3 in the end of the second book, eludes to a love triangle.
bones234 · 6 points · Posted at 22:09:55 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Well, that's a matter of opinion. I very much enjoyed the Hunger Games, but I found that I like the Maze Runner much better.
Sure, it eludes to a little bit of a romance, but that is not any sort of driving force in the story. There is much more focus on friendships and family-type bonds.
CrazyCatLady108 · 2 points · Posted at 22:19:51 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
did you happen to read maze runner when you were younger?
if i had to compare just the first book in maze runner, then yes i would say it is at the very least as good as HG. however, i think the plot became much thinner as the story progressed, making feel like the author didn't map out the idea past the first book.
HG also has a LOT of levels, love triangle, family, growing up, politics, war, etc. maze runner is really good about the whole boys are friends and are good at making a community but only in the first book. i guess i am especially bitter because the 2nd book started so good (very 'saw' like) and then just meh-ed.
PS: if you can find "Knights of Forty Islands" by Lukyanenko in english. i think you would really enjoy the read if you liked maze runner :)
unionponi · 2 points · Posted at 00:27:16 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
I know I'm in the minority, but I LOVED Mockingjay because of the extra levels. Granted, there were still parts that made no sense and others that were heavily in cliche territory, but it's a much better book than people give it credit for.
CrazyCatLady108 · 2 points · Posted at 01:27:18 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
the many levels are specifically what puts that series apart from other YA lit for me. and the fact that all those levels were connected through the whole series, not just added as an after thought, makes me respect the work that much more.
WheresTheFood · 2 points · Posted at 13:01:58 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
I read Maze Runner and I didn't enjoy it much. It left me feeling blah. I doubt I'll ever reread. On the other hand I've reread Hunger Games a few times. It's a nice, fun, easy read.
thelunchbunch160 · 2 points · Posted at 00:55:38 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
I thought it was unreadable, honestly. I mean, I read it, but hated everything about it. Too many questions asked by the protagonist.
Reeeltalk · 1 points · Posted at 03:06:09 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
I read it before the movie and enjoyed the 1st book. 2nd couldn't hold my attention.
paranoiainc · 1 points · Posted at 15:09:22 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)*
Vondi · 46 points · Posted at 17:16:33 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Wait, they have this elaborate testing process but people get to pick their faction anyway?
_silentheartsong · 62 points · Posted at 17:25:01 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
If I had to guess, I would say that the test isn't really meant to tell you your faction; it's just a smokescreen meant to find Divergents.
PurpleParasite · 33 points · Posted at 18:06:12 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
But that would make sense, and require original thought - so it can't possibly be a part of the plot.
SpeakWithThePen · 17 points · Posted at 19:08:53 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
I think it actually is part of the plot. There's 3 books in the series, and the plot of the first is finding and eradicating the divergent.
LittleMizz · 19 points · Posted at 19:59:29 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
I've read all three and I STILL don't know what the point of being Divergent is...
TheMagicPin · 66 points · Posted at 20:12:36 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
It means you're a special snowflake.
Pauser · 8 points · Posted at 23:23:13 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Which really means you're super-normal.
Spoiler
dontknowmeatall · 2 points · Posted at 13:00:56 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
Wait, what? I stopped at the first book because it was too predictable. What is this twist you talk about?
Pauser · 3 points · Posted at 17:26:29 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
Eh, I don't blame you. First chapter of the first book really put me off. About 30% of the book could have been edited out and it'd be a better read. I skimmed through the whole series because the writer went to my school.
Spoiler
Super Spoiler of the ending
Modevs · 21 points · Posted at 20:03:01 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
"Thrill as these rebellious divergents uncover a conspiracy to eradicate an entire district... I mean faction."
[deleted] · 11 points · Posted at 17:59:15 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
I've read lots of fanfiction far better than Divergent. Even Twilight was better.
dontknowmeatall · 1 points · Posted at 13:01:48 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
Doubt it.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 11:49:05 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
I'm trying to find this review I read by a guy saw divergent where he does nothing but talk about about the train footage, let me get back to you on that it's fuckin great
Razanur · 12 points · Posted at 19:13:05 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
I was really not a huge fan of how anti-intellectual Divergent was. Apparently the other two get better about that, but I have no plans to read/see them regardless.
Speech500 · 2 points · Posted at 22:57:15 on April 9, 2015 · (Permalink)
They don't
Crabaooke · 28 points · Posted at 17:57:08 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
I actually just finished the first book the other day. While sickeningly full of cliches, I still enjoyed it. Easy read and something that doesn't make you think too hard (at all) but still enjoyable. Sickeningly cliche'd though.
piyochama · 21 points · Posted at 20:31:32 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Wait didn't everyone read all these YA trilogies because of this?... anyone?....
Puffy_Ghost · 6 points · Posted at 23:47:28 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
I read Divergent for the keks, and I sure got a lot of them.
Do not plan on reading the other books, or any YA books in particular any time soon. The genre so full of shit it's amazing people can't see they're stepping in it.
Brain-Rapist · 20 points · Posted at 19:09:15 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
so you can read it while you poop and not miss anything because the giant turn is ripping your asshole apart
brandenholder · 2 points · Posted at 19:32:39 on February 14, 2015 · (Permalink)
"giant turn"...did it go sideways in your colon?
A-Grey-World · 3 points · Posted at 00:12:23 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
I read it, kind of enjoyed it (I like trash). I tried a reread when the third one came out and couldn't stand it though.
That's never happened to me before. I love rereading books...
bullintheheather · 8 points · Posted at 19:13:29 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
I thought I was reading the boiled down plot for the Hunger Games.
CarnivorousGiraffe · 16 points · Posted at 18:06:19 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
It didn't really have the love triangle. I did appreciate that.
G8kpr · 2 points · Posted at 11:07:50 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
Currently reading "Catching Fire" (Hunger Games book 2) and a lot of these hit bang on..
Speech500 · 2 points · Posted at 22:40:23 on April 9, 2015 · (Permalink)
The book I'm writing has the whole "enclosed space that no one leaves until one fateful event" thing in it, but very little else from that list.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:45:43 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)*
deleted What is this?
DaQuiggz · 368 points · Posted at 14:44:09 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Don't forget the, I have an obscure talent, that I am basically incredible at and will one day be the one thing I need to do to save the world.
crokinoler · 239 points · Posted at 15:24:26 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
...and the only thing standing in my way is self doubt. Not lack of skill or experience or ability! Because if I just believe in myself, I can achieve anything!!
[deleted] · 278 points · Posted at 16:11:17 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
"Shamron looked out over the smoldering ruins of Dystopolis. A new dawn of freedom had come at last. She smiled confidently knowing that playing spoons had defeated the Great Evil. She spun around, gently raised her right leg, and hopped away with the clickety-clackity sound of her freedom spoons ringing out over the valley."
searine · 78 points · Posted at 17:15:55 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
She was the hero the that impoverished people of the hambone district deserved.
dei2anged · 49 points · Posted at 17:41:26 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Dear Lord this world needs more hambone based speculative teen fiction
crokinoler · 56 points · Posted at 16:16:18 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
See that? THAT? I WOULD READ THAT!
some_random_kaluna · 3 points · Posted at 00:44:21 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
As her bright shiny future dribbled all over the ground?
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 03:24:55 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
As a dog owner, I have to admit I thought of that too.
some_random_kaluna · 2 points · Posted at 03:49:48 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
Lol. Yep. I'm a dog owner too. That's exactly what I was thinking of.
But in all seriousness, talented writers can have fun with established tropes and even make a fresh take on them.
Girdon_Freeman · 2 points · Posted at 00:16:31 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
You mind if I use that in a book I might write?
derefr · 63 points · Posted at 18:10:15 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
It might be a retread, but it's the lesson teenage girls in particular need, a lot of the time. Self-doubt is the only thing standing in the way... of their doing well in math class.
crokinoler · 53 points · Posted at 18:19:01 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
It's a really interesting debate, isn't it? So much of pop psych of the 80s forward stresses esteem as the ultimate deciding factor in success, but from what I understand that model is a bit cart-before-the-horse-ish. Self esteem often seems to be the result, rather than the cause of other factors: opportunity, institutional support, freedom, cold hard cash. In other words, the obsession with self esteem seems like a bandaid rather than a real cure. FEELING like you can achieve anything isn't exactly going to make up for institutional disadvantage based on class or gender or race or anything else, you know?
Dunning-Kruger comes up a LOT on reddit, but I think that's because it's a way to critique a system that see self-worth as the engine rather than the result of a lot of other political/social/intellectual/artistic systems.
LeifEriksonisawesome · 29 points · Posted at 18:31:23 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
True, but if you lack self-esteem, you're not even going to bother to try to challenge those institutional disadvantages.
crokinoler · 17 points · Posted at 18:36:35 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Completely agree-- I'm just saying that individual self esteem isn't necessarily the fix that '80s education seemed to think it was.
LeifEriksonisawesome · 7 points · Posted at 18:41:28 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Very true. That extends to most things, life is more nuanced than some great big fix.
crokinoler · 9 points · Posted at 18:50:48 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Too bad, eh? Sometimes I wish I DID live in one of those YA universes where you just need a hero, a bit of a revolution, maybe a magic sword and hey presto... totally renovated society!
naimina · 10 points · Posted at 19:09:45 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
12 men with guns renovated Cuba. Just go for it man.
dontknowmeatall · 1 points · Posted at 14:39:52 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
How did that work out for Cube?
FourFlamesNinja · 8 points · Posted at 23:14:27 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
You're missing the grey-flecked- or silver-bearded mentor who teaches our orphan hero the ways of his mystical craft.
Just because I'm bored, here's four random examples:
Salt-and-pepper-bearded ranger Halt teaches Will, an orphan ward, the ways of the Rangers. Magic sword? Close enough. Almost-magical cloak, bow, and daggers.
Silver-bearded Ben / Obi-Wan Kenobi teaches Luke, an orphan boy, the ways of the Jedi. Magic sword? Yes, lightsaber.
Silver-bearded Dumbledore teaches Harry, an orphan boy, the ways of Wizards. Magic sword? Close enough, wand.
Grey-bearded Brom teaches Eragon, an orphan boy, the ways of the Dragon Riders. Magic sword? Most certainly: Zar'roc.
LeifEriksonisawesome · 2 points · Posted at 21:30:51 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
That would be amazing, but then again, I probably wouldn't be the protagonist.
soundslikeponies · 5 points · Posted at 19:06:11 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
I rely on a system of faking over-confidence while trying to suppress my inner crippling doubts. The former lets me work and share my work, while the latter keeps me in check. Psychologically that may not be healthy, but considering it has been working, I ain't gonna try fixing it.
LeifEriksonisawesome · 1 points · Posted at 21:30:29 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Fair enough. Would you want your children to follow that system? Teaching self-confidence doesn't have to mean teaching self-confidence without accompanying work, nor does it have to mean teaching cockiness.
kamashamasay · 1 points · Posted at 23:22:23 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
More recent stuff I have read have indicated that it is a type of self-esteem, in particular achievement oriented self-esteem that is beneficial and required, rather than trait oriented. However it does need to build, ie small esteem boosters for small tasks. Trait self esteem is actually a demotivator and creates focus on status rather than accomplishment.
However all of this is hearsay so do not take it into a court of law.
istara · 1 points · Posted at 00:44:10 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
Actually, quite probably, yes. There are tonnes of studies into conditioning students before exams with devastating results. Cordelia Fine's "Delusions of Gender" looks at a lot of these. They've done quite horrifying experiments telling students that they probably won't pass an exam as "girls aren't good at maths, so don't sorry" and then they hugely underperform control groups. The reverse works as well.
There are gender differences, but they're around 2-3% for example, not 10-20% (pulled specific figures out of my head, but that's the degree of difference we see from cultural conditioning). There are also stats of things like how much better girls do at maths in countries with less polarised cultural conditioning about STEM ability, eg China, Eastern Europe.
That said, I think what the whole build-self-esteem movement got wrong is that's is not about how great you are, it's how great you COULD be if you work hard etc.
It's about telling people that they have the potential to do things, not that they can't do them. And obviously you have to manage expectations to some degree, but by the time a young person is seriously thinking of becoming a fighter pilot or rocket scientist or model, it's going to become obvious to them if they need to shape their ambitions a little differently.
owlpellet · 12 points · Posted at 20:41:52 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Not really. It reinforces the wildly unhelpful mindset that ability is innate and not the result of focused practice over time. That it's something you're born with (or not!) and if you just try it'll work out (or not!).
What do you think happens when you believe in yourself and something turns out to be... hard?
A counter narrative would hold that exceptional ability begins with early exposure and encouragement to continue, which some people have (priviledge!) and some people do not. While privilege helps, ability is something you can earn through effort, and that effort is something you can control.
You are not "the one". But anyone could be, if they wanted to.
See http://mindsetonline.com/
derefr · 9 points · Posted at 20:52:01 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)*
Ah, I think I've misspoken. I don't mean that "self-confidence is all you need to be successful", as if willpower were the sole determinant of every other trait.
I meant that for some people—teenage girls, mostly—they actually have everything else (all the privilege required to set up good positive feedback loops, all the natural talent to get a good start), and their lack of self-confidence is literally the only thing stopping them from achieving their potential.
There are studies where they give girls a math test, and prime some of them with a story that reminds them of their gender, while priming others with a story where gender is irrelevant. The girls who get the gender-irrelevant story do better on the test than the girls who don't—and they also do better than control. Sometimes, people just aren't trying because they don't think they [as a member of reference class X] "should" be able to do something, even when they [as an individual] are perfectly capable of doing that thing.
owlpellet · 2 points · Posted at 22:42:01 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
All your points on stereotype threat are right on, so we're in agreement. There's some really neat work on mindset interventions there: http://www.serve.org/FileLibraryDetails.aspx?id=88
Well, sort of. That's edging into tautology. The only reason they don't achieve is that they don't achieve. Ok, but why?
derefr · 1 points · Posted at 23:01:10 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
I guess I'm not too concerned with how people lose justified self-confidence, and what can be done to prevent that (someone else can tackle that problem; it sounds sociological and likely intensely parental in nature.) I'm more concerned that there are people who've already lost their self-confidence, and what external media-depiction-level interventions can help those people.
Larrygiggles · 38 points · Posted at 15:59:06 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Or even better, an 'obscure' characteristic that requires no talent but I seem to be the only one that has it. Me and this handsome boy that I don't totally understand but he totally loves me!
veganon · 11 points · Posted at 16:20:55 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
You pretty much just described the classic hero archetype.
HannasAnarion · 1 points · Posted at 06:31:05 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
Yeah, seriously, this isn't exclusive to YA Dystopia fiction, it's a variant of Chekhov's gun, which has become part of the run-of-the-mill Hero's Journey story.
Iggapoo · 95 points · Posted at 16:56:38 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
I'm too busy fighting the Regime to think about love. No matter what Dylon and Luque confessed to me.
Iggapoo · 70 points · Posted at 16:57:55 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
I'll just sit here with my long, flowing red hair, thinking of ways to escape The City.
Iggapoo · 60 points · Posted at 17:00:29 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
I grew up with Luque; he's like a brother to me. But that kiss didn't feel like brotherly concern.
Iggapoo · 56 points · Posted at 17:01:02 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
But Dylon works for the Commander. How much can I really trust him?
Iggapoo · 46 points · Posted at 17:03:37 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
I just turned 18 which means I can finally leave the prison ship. But that means I have to leave mom and dad.
fenshield · 143 points · Posted at 14:47:04 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
I've had an idea for a dystopian setting for a while, and went through these tweets like a checklist to see how many I was using. Started out pretty good, but then quickly went downhill. I think some of these, like the Infalliable System, are so deeply rooted in the genre they are almost impossible to avoid.
IAmBoring_AMA · 223 points · Posted at 14:51:11 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Tropes aren't a bad thing. They help readers understand and have expectations for certain genres. To avoid the "cliche" aspect of it, I think it's more about execution and carefully structuring/subverting some of the expectations.
Paul_Revere_Warns · 181 points · Posted at 14:59:26 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Exactly! Tropes are like seasoning. With just enough, you'll make the meal twice as good. Pile on a mountain of salt, and you'll ruin the dish.
[deleted] · 70 points · Posted at 17:22:06 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
But occasionally you just want to eat a pile of salt, so you buy a big pretzel.
Polycephal_Lee · 59 points · Posted at 01:06:50 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
And to be a good pretzel, it needs a twist.
[deleted] · 20 points · Posted at 01:19:40 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
Pretzel sticks are good, too, but that's probably where the analogy breaks down.
King_Jaahn · 14 points · Posted at 04:11:51 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
That's the twist.
CineSuppa · 17 points · Posted at 06:57:47 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
Shyamalan'd.
Fuzzydrone · 3 points · Posted at 01:17:29 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
Now I'm hungry. Thanks.
Kiram · 32 points · Posted at 18:25:17 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Tropes, and even cliches, can be used really effectively as well. Do you have something that you really don't want to spend a whole lot of time building up and discussing, because it's honestly not that big a part of the story, but it does serve some purpose? Drop a cliche in there. People will know it's a cliche, obviously, but that means they will get the point and be able to move on to more important stuff all the quicker.
You see this in more narrow genres all the time. My favorite is Kung-Fu movies. You need a big, final-ish climactic fight between good guy and bad guy? Of course you do, the fights are kind of what this genre is based around. So, you could spend a ton of time, detailing why both the hero and villain lose their various weapons, advantages, and disadvantages... or you could make it so that the Dragon has a penchant for dropping his guns and knives and beating people to death with his own hands.
Yeah, it's cliche as hell, but man is it a time-saver. Plus, the only real exposition you need to do about that fact is to have our Dragon get into a similar fight with a lesser good guy, and beat him senseless. This also serves to prove how badass the Dragon is, and sets him up as a credible threat for later in the movie. Two birds, one cliche, and the audience is happy, because while detailed backstories and such are kind of nice, we all know we are here to watch people take boots to the face.
If you do it right, you can get what I like to call the "purist" genre movies/stories. These are books/movies/whatever that know exactly what they are getting into, and don't make any attempt to change up expectations. They just set out to make a really good version of whatever it is they wanted to do. I mentioned Martial Arts films because we don't often think about the tropes they use, the fact that the tropes are super obvious once you think about them, but more importantly, because I have the perfect example waiting for me.
Anyone here who is a Martial Arts Film fan should have already watched the Raid. If you haven't, stop reading and go do it now. But before you do, go take a peak at the TVTropes page for Kung-Fu movies. You can have a gigantic list of tropes, and this movie hits like... all of them. But that doesn't stop it from being a really, really good movie. Because it's using it's cliches as shortcuts, not as crutches. It's a slim difference, but holy hell when it comes together, it really works.
piyochama · 20 points · Posted at 20:38:45 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
I was shouting AMEN like I was one of those extras in a stereotypical black church scene.
This is so incredibly what cliches are supposed to be like and HOW they're supposed to be used.
jantilles · 2 points · Posted at 14:45:36 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
Regarding the black church scene: like lots of stereotypes, it's actually pretty true to life.
One day my dad was a guest preacher at a local black church, and it really did look like something out of a movie. One guy would do this little shuffle back and forth in the rear of the sanctuary, other people would clap or shout "Glow-ry!" or "Ay-MEN, preacha!" And there would always be the older ladies in ornate hats that would just shake their head, raise one hand and wave it, and murmur "mmm-MMM!" while fanning themselves.
It was actually a lot of fun to be there, because I was used to churchgoers being a lot more image-conscious and emotionally restrained. Being around these people that were just completely immersed in the message and the moment was refreshing.
Sorry for the long aside, you sparked a memory that made me smile. :)
piyochama · 1 points · Posted at 18:23:49 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
Haha that sounds like fun!
dontknowmeatall · 1 points · Posted at 15:41:10 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
And now you've provided us with another example. You could have used a whole paragraph to explain your reaction, but just by saying "black church extra AMEN" we all understand it perfectly.
MrHav0k · 25 points · Posted at 16:58:08 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
That is the best explanation of tropes I have ever seen!
IAMA_fat_chick_AMA · 19 points · Posted at 17:14:44 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Made me hungry!
Bassoon_Commie · 6 points · Posted at 19:24:34 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
I feel like your username is relevant but I don't want to be an ass about it. Is it relevant?
house03 · 3 points · Posted at 00:31:31 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
Redditor for: 1 year, 7 months and 23 days.
IAMA_fat_chick_AMA · 2 points · Posted at 12:33:39 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
As much as I hate to admit it, yes it probably is. The thought of a mountain of salt did quell the hunger though.
minderaser · 1 points · Posted at 19:30:23 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Made me thirsty :(
piyochama · 3 points · Posted at 20:32:22 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Now I really want some kebab :s
TundraWolf_ · 15 points · Posted at 17:06:43 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
A friend of mine wrote a fantasy book. It had good ideas, but between using every overused fantasy cliche and naming his characters after people we both know it ruined it for me.
shamanshaman123 · 5 points · Posted at 18:40:47 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
I was wondering about the naming bit, actually. The names are short and fit the characters really well, but they might hit too close to home... What's the general rule on that?
TundraWolf_ · 7 points · Posted at 20:01:44 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
I'm not the one to ask :) In all honesty, it would've been a bad book without the names -- the names were just oddly places. The lands had typical strange fantasy names, and then they run into some guy named Charlie the archer. I dunno, just doesn't fit.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 21:45:36 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Lol. Hey, still beats Bob the archer though.
WateredDown · 2 points · Posted at 23:15:28 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
I dunno, I enjoy a good Aerith and Bob scenario.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 01:24:26 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
Charlie? Come on, at least go for Charles.
SiderealDreamer · 6 points · Posted at 17:43:57 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
You could almost say that too many tropes will spoil the broth...
themanofawesomeness · 3 points · Posted at 01:21:57 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
tooooooooooo many troooopppeeesssss
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 21:59:34 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Or if you can avoid them entirely you can create something extremely special. But it's incredibly difficult to do.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 22:03:53 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
In this metaphor Divergent is a salt mine.
The_Original_Gronkie · 49 points · Posted at 15:56:47 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
One of my favorite movies is John Hughes' first - 16 Candles. It looked like a typical teen movie, but he turned all the cliches on their heads. The geek was coolest guy of all who really understood women, the jock was actually sensitive and a nice guy, the cheerleader was vapid but willing to change for the better, the mother was a good person, the dad wasn't an idiot, the grandparents weren't the wise old folks with all the answers, etc. He used the teen movie template, but it was obvious that he tried for exactly the opposite in each case, which kept you guessing. I've often thought about that while writing.
MorganWick · 20 points · Posted at 15:45:48 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Obligatory
big_cheddars · 7 points · Posted at 21:29:01 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
dude come on i wanted to be productive this evening
mindbleach · 34 points · Posted at 20:22:35 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
What people miss about 1984 is that its dictatorship is self-sustaining. It never openly puts everyone through the wringer or defies its citizens to dare revolt. It's stable. MiniLove is not some high-minded and charismatic organization, imagining it's building a better world - it's an immune system. It serves the state without question or apology.
Even the Inner Party, selected from the most loyal youth, is an artificial boundary whose members have no real power advantage. O'Brien was no less observed than Winston. If he harbored secret misgivings based on the few secrets he was trusted with, he'd be found out and dealt with, just the same.
As terrible as IngSoc is, and as openly vile its true intentions were, it was entrenched. If your system can be overthrown by plucky teenagers who found out some obvious secret yesterday then it would not have survived this long. Make your system's ruthlessness serve its stability, then give your protagonist some deus-ex-machina the system genuinely couldn't predict. Hope and moxy are the first things a murderous autocracy will learn to crush.
nonotion · 7 points · Posted at 08:23:38 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
Certainly true, but 1984 doesn't have the heroic-cycle jammed into into it. It averts the need to have some kind of innate weakness because it ends with "He loved Big Brother." Writing heroic victories without cliche is a near-impossible task.
mindbleach · 6 points · Posted at 08:52:05 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
Only because Winston fails. Averting that would take a modicum of power or luck that the otherwise ruthlessly effective system would not foresee. Done simply, this is just deus ex machina, like Lyra avoiding separation from her daemon purely by good timing. Done well, it can be an ironic twist, wherein The State's own dogma turns back on them due to "acts of god" that snowball to confound the stable order of things.
TwilightVulpine · 2 points · Posted at 03:28:19 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
But if we are going for realism, a perfectly self-sustaining system of control is not much more realistic than the plucky teenagers toppling it.
In a any system, people screw up. In a big enough system there are enough accidents, workarounds and exploitation that the stronger thing that keeps it going is the belief that it works somehow, or at least a cohesive policing system, which depends on the former. If you take that away it all falls apart.
You can generously have a perfect system of control for a few generations, but this perfect control is nothing that can be imagined or maintained by mortal, flawed humans.
PraetorianXVIII · 23 points · Posted at 15:29:19 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
I had a good idea, but then I read The Road and figured it wasn't worth the effort.
Trodamus · 15 points · Posted at 16:03:37 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Nothing wrong with starting with a broken, "falliable" system and going from there, is there?
I can see it now: people are poor, dirty and tired, there's unrest and shit, and only these special teenagers can fix things.
Ending would be making a shitty Infalliable System that begets another YA novel.
[deleted] · 9 points · Posted at 22:38:53 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Ha, same here. Except I don't have a love triangle. I work with kids. Girls and boys really hate the love triangle crap. I assume that publishers think it sells well because it's thrown into books that would otherwise sell well (like Hunger Games).
Also, the whole gated community thing applies. But that trope goes beyond YA fiction. It's a pretty old trope, actually. It's similar to leaving your home/village/city the first time and the new experiences that come with it.
Teslok · 2 points · Posted at 01:51:18 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
The triangle hit "standard" as far as YA fiction because of all the Twilight fangirls being rabidly "team edward" or "team jacob." They're almost unavoidable now.
Jourdy288 · 5 points · Posted at 19:01:14 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Remember, the concept of the Infallible System is how real-life dystopias manage to start and continue to run; there's nothing wrong with employing one in your own work.
big_cheddars · 4 points · Posted at 21:28:29 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
MAKE THE HERO THE BAD GUY
caligaris_cabinet · 1 points · Posted at 02:41:07 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
So from freedom fighter to terrorist?
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 04:08:28 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
It's all about perspective.
justmerriwether · 5 points · Posted at 19:43:46 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
If you really want to pursue it then you have to study and analyze the best of the genre and figure out what they did that worked before it was all a cliche and why they did it originally.
Read 1984 and Animal Farm to start with and then read the Hunger Games and this piece of crap Divergent and see what's stolen, what's copied, what wasn't copied (probably plenty of gold that they figured was too overcomplicated for Teens, which means definitely steal it for your own stuff because it's probably much better), etc etc
mareenah · 1 points · Posted at 01:03:32 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
Before reading Divergent I had not read any dystopias. Any at all. Sure, I was frustrated at some plot aspects and how the characters behaved, but I read the book in a day and liked it.
Carl_Maxwell · 2 points · Posted at 02:55:17 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
Googling "Infallible System" comes up with 'Infallible Systems Limited' which is a roofing company in the UK.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:10:23 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Well, there are plenty of different ways of handling something, many of which emerge off of a different higher-level treatment of what's actually happening behind the scenes, but which can result in some of the same "dystopic YA" flavor.
For example, maybe the controlling force is various patron gods of a city who seek out worthy individuals with particular attributes to accrue power and influence as more dedicated servants, but who ultimately all serve the same damaging system. Or some extradimensional force which swoops in at unexpected moments and makes cruel demands, which basically has human social structures and governments cowed and transforms human society as a result.
JPLR · 1 points · Posted at 03:25:10 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
Blame Orwell. Or don't, I mean at least he was original after all...
🎙️ jae_bird · 68 points · Posted at 14:22:30 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
tweets from https://twitter.com/DystopianYA
Dookie_boy · 2 points · Posted at 22:52:04 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
What does YA mean ?
TheStradivarius · 4 points · Posted at 23:25:37 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Young Adult.
crokinoler · 58 points · Posted at 15:02:26 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Check out The Toast's The Wikipedia Entry for Guam Retold as a YA novel. Similar and equally hilarious.
RogueNite · 24 points · Posted at 16:58:39 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Marvellous.
pyradiesel · 11 points · Posted at 18:54:14 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
I thought the best line was going to be "...and her mother was an invasive species of brown tree snake from the Phillippines."
But what got me was: "Everyone in this story has cancer."
PsychoSemantics · 2 points · Posted at 05:44:26 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
This is hysterical! Did they ever write the Belgium one?
crokinoler · 1 points · Posted at 16:04:09 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
I haven't seen it... but I continue to hope.
GuamZombie · 2 points · Posted at 13:13:32 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
This is glorious
sethg · 44 points · Posted at 17:08:26 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)*
Somebody has hacked into my Dropbox account and stolen my masterpiece-in-progress.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 23:59:46 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Kek
bit99 · 83 points · Posted at 15:42:20 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
"It just seems like I don't fit into society's pre-described categories." amazing.
paranoiainc · 36 points · Posted at 16:12:07 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)*
sethg · 133 points · Posted at 17:06:00 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
It’s as if these books are being read by teenagers who believe that the entire course of their adult life is going to be determined by their scores on tests that were composed and graded by distant bureaucrats. Who on earth could have put that idea in their minds?
hybbprqag · 35 points · Posted at 18:12:51 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Ender's Game and The Giver both use this trope, too. I would guess that The Giver is the biggest culprit for why the trope appears so much in current YA sci-fi.
paranoiainc · 8 points · Posted at 18:21:58 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)*
hybbprqag · 15 points · Posted at 18:26:58 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
I think the visuals for the movie are trying to capitalize on the popularity of stuff like Divergent, even though the book predates it by a lot. It was fairly common assigned reading in middle school for people my age.
[deleted] · 7 points · Posted at 22:08:30 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
I remember finishing it much more quickly than the rest of my class (like a month or something). The teacher had his doubts. He took me into the hall and asked me about the ending. I had been thinking of it and talked for like 20 minutes about the ambiguity and how it is both comforting and unsettling depending on how you approach it. He said I should read less. Fun times.
DernaNerna · 2 points · Posted at 02:31:49 on June 16, 2015 · (Permalink)
What a coon
CrazyCatLady108 · 6 points · Posted at 21:38:41 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
read the book. its only like 100 pages.
tits_hemingway · 4 points · Posted at 18:56:25 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
I can't remember the title, but there was this awful YA trilogy I read in middle school where they overthrow a government that bases everything around tests, and then spend the next two books taking more tests that I think are supernatural.
A-Grey-World · 3 points · Posted at 00:19:50 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
It's almost like young people relate to being tested all the time... lol
CarnivorousGiraffe · 1 points · Posted at 18:05:13 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
There's also Pawn (blackcoat rebellion) and sort of Reboot.
themanofawesomeness · 1 points · Posted at 01:46:49 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
At least Red Rising made its "big test" interesting. It combined the best of Battle School from Ender's Game with a setting similar to a Hunger Games map.
iamthetlc · 1 points · Posted at 20:34:50 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
Side note: Yay Legend!
HawaiianBrian · 34 points · Posted at 16:21:44 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Clichés can be tiresome, and some of these definitely need to be retired (at least for a while). But I feel like a lot of these clichés are going to be necessary in YA because they express feelings their readers grapple with everyday, perhaps without the clarity of thought to recognize it.
paranoiainc · 8 points · Posted at 17:42:18 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)*
CarnivorousGiraffe · 8 points · Posted at 18:03:36 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
You are so fortunate to have not made it to book 3 of Divergent.
paranoiainc · 5 points · Posted at 18:11:58 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)*
CarnivorousGiraffe · 8 points · Posted at 22:14:43 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
tl;dr: Everything in the first two books was a meaningless lie, and you shouldn't alternate narrators if your narrators have indistinguishable voices.
paranoiainc · 2 points · Posted at 17:03:08 on February 13, 2015 · (Permalink)*
[deleted] · 5 points · Posted at 00:51:09 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)*
everything in the first 2 books was a lie. someone fucked up a medical experiment hundreds of years ago and made people into stupid caricatures of each "caste". They really WERE born into the categories.
The divergents were just the now "mutants" born without the brain alteration. AKA Tris was the only normal human being.
There were people watching the whole time from the outside. Normal people. Like the whole rest of the world was not split into these castes. Detecting the divergents was only important because they apparently had thrown their hands up about trying to fix the brain issue and decided to just "wait and see how many generations it took to wear off" or something.
Tris dies in the end in a completely pointless way that made 0 sense and had 0 emotional pull. And it kept switching the narrator to 4, but you couldn't tell the difference between their voices.
Also in the "big end" they just wipe the memories of the people who were controlling them from the outside. As if wiping the memory of the 100 people in the lab was going to solve their problems forever. That was the cause that Tris died for. I don't really even know why they did it. They didn't leave the town in the end either.
It also ret-conned a lot of stuff that happened in the first 2 books and it was obvious the author pulled it all out of her ass as the "OMG TWIST ENDING!"
dontknowmeatall · 2 points · Posted at 15:51:16 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
So like the last X-men film?
DernaNerna · 2 points · Posted at 02:33:49 on June 16, 2015 · (Permalink)
Except bad and not ret conning garbage.
dontknowmeatall · 2 points · Posted at 03:01:18 on June 16, 2015 · (Permalink)
The last X-men film was pretty bad.
DernaNerna · 2 points · Posted at 04:50:35 on June 16, 2015 · (Permalink)
Days of future past? :( I liked it. The ending was kinda weak though.
dontknowmeatall · 2 points · Posted at 11:35:05 on June 16, 2015 · (Permalink)
I liked it until the ending killed the previous thirteen years of loving X-men and made my fanaticism worthless.
CynicalWaffles · 3 points · Posted at 21:48:27 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
tl:dr: 400 pages of pure agony and disappointment
strawberry36 · 3 points · Posted at 18:53:45 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
It's just a cheap rehash of the first two books with a completely unnecessary ending.
JimmyKillsAlot · 30 points · Posted at 18:07:40 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
The sad part is, if someone wrote "A Dystopian Young Adult Novel" and filled it with the same biting bitterness these tweets carry, I would read the hell out of it.
🎙️ jae_bird · 8 points · Posted at 22:55:35 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
I'm on it.
poorbrenton · 28 points · Posted at 17:35:13 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
::Reads imgur, nodding head slowly ::
Welp.
::Drops notebook into the bin ::
i8pikachu · 17 points · Posted at 17:51:38 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Then it has served us well.
bovisrex · 2 points · Posted at 13:39:17 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
Go pick it back out of the bin. Find the things that don't fit the stereotypes. Write them. Then find the things that do, that you liked, and fucking OWN them. Then rewrite and refine and publish.
fiascoist · 92 points · Posted at 14:41:37 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Yikes. Some of these hit a little too close to home. The "Train" one caught me off guard. What stories include the "first time riding the Train" plot point besides Harry Potter?
IAmBoring_AMA · 132 points · Posted at 14:43:18 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Divergent.
[deleted] · 142 points · Posted at 14:48:18 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Hunger Games
[deleted] · 103 points · Posted at 14:51:20 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Atlas Shrugged.
IAmBoring_AMA · 266 points · Posted at 14:57:02 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Schindler's List...
PraetorianXVIII · 136 points · Posted at 15:28:54 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
That's that movie about people from that category not getting along with people from that other category, right?
[deleted] · 92 points · Posted at 15:40:51 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Maybe the totalitarian government doesn't know best after all...
Nah, they probably do.
ConfusedTangles · 7 points · Posted at 17:22:02 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
More like people from one category systematically wiping out people from several other categories. But, yeah pretty much.
PraetorianXVIII · 7 points · Posted at 18:37:27 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
I was trying to go along with the post's quotes, but yes.
nerdcomplex42 · 54 points · Posted at 15:43:42 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
One of these things is not like the others...
And we've been taught not to associate with the Others.
michaelsiemsen · 19 points · Posted at 16:15:00 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
The dystopia that started it all. I wonder how many times a book pitch has included the phrase "It's like the holocaust, but worse..."
LongLiveThe_King · 5 points · Posted at 01:49:13 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
Hopefully the same number of times an author has been punched for saying that exact phrase with a straight face.
somegetit · 16 points · Posted at 15:51:50 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
The original YA that started it all.
bullintheheather · 6 points · Posted at 20:14:02 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
I laughed. I felt like a horrible, horrible person, but I laughed. Damn you.
Lawlosaurus · 3 points · Posted at 23:56:04 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
No, that's the last time riding the train.
AButtonInAFurCoat · 6 points · Posted at 18:51:35 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
That has to be the first YA dystopia. Dagney has not two but three guys after her.
ms4 · 1 points · Posted at 02:31:24 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
Nothing about Atlas Shrugged is YA.... lol
DIA13OLICAL · 5 points · Posted at 18:03:44 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
To be fair, most of that book is spent talking about trains.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:37:10 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Was trying to be funny, some people didn't like my sense of humor.
KeatingOrRoark · 0 points · Posted at 16:24:44 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
When?
KeatingOrRoark · 0 points · Posted at 18:59:17 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
I should specify, what part of the book involves a teen getting on a train for their first time as a plot point?
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:07:07 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
I was being facetious.
KeatingOrRoark · 1 points · Posted at 20:09:25 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Ah. K.
fiascoist · 27 points · Posted at 14:56:17 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
You're right! I forgot about that. I don't remember Katniss' first time on the train as an essential or pivotal moment. But both Harry Potter and Hunger Games used a train as a recurring setting throughout their stories. It's really just the YA fantasy fallback for travel.
[deleted] · 84 points · Posted at 15:00:23 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
It's a fatalistic device: you are headed on a one way track toward whatever shit you have to deal with, and you have time to think about it.
[deleted] · 7 points · Posted at 18:04:22 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Yup, and it being the first time shows the reader how the character is not in their normal setting whatsoever.
IAmBoring_AMA · 45 points · Posted at 15:21:43 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Trains work for dystopian books because they don't rely on gas or technology to run, and they require very little explanation. Also, train travel harkens back to a "time before" but not too specifically.
Also, yea, all that symbolism stuff.
[deleted] · 39 points · Posted at 15:47:13 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
I'd also add that it's final. You get on the train, there's no diverting it anywhere; it's stuck on the tracks until you get to your destination. It's fairly ominous to head into danger on one. There's just no turning around.
Trodamus · 23 points · Posted at 16:00:31 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
I feel like Divergence owes me a refund.
IAmBoring_AMA · 8 points · Posted at 20:05:53 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Divergent owes a lot of people a refund.
call_me_Kote · 9 points · Posted at 17:37:58 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Maze runner used an elevator. Similar concept, different flair.
A-Grey-World · 1 points · Posted at 00:22:33 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
Also known as uppity-downity-trains
drakeblood4 · 9 points · Posted at 15:38:33 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Makes sense. It's travel that teenagers can do without having to give a shit about it and it's passive enough that plot can happen without tapping out one character or another.
OriDoodle · 1 points · Posted at 05:12:11 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
Katniss' first time on the train was her first time in the world of the Capital, with all it's trappings and expectations.
fiascoist · 6 points · Posted at 14:52:05 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Ah. Good to know. Haven't read it or seen it.
[deleted] · 28 points · Posted at 16:27:08 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)*
[deleted]
Will_Power · 28 points · Posted at 16:42:18 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
I suppose one could argue that the Wizarding World was still in a state of recovery from the reign of Voldemort. That and the bureaucracy. So much bureaucracy.
[deleted] · 22 points · Posted at 16:47:20 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)*
[deleted]
A_Malicious_Duck · 12 points · Posted at 22:12:23 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)*
Voldemort was actually defeated by Harry and his friends forming an orderly Queue.
Edit:I'm an idiot who can't spell.
ettuaslumiere · 8 points · Posted at 23:30:32 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Que?
A_Malicious_Duck · 1 points · Posted at 23:48:56 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Yeah a que, like a long orderly line of people to get to something.
It looks weird when you type it but makes more sense if you say it aloud.
ettuaslumiere · 2 points · Posted at 00:11:23 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
Sorry, it was a joke. It's actually spelled "queue", so I was making a pun on how "que" means "what" in Spanish or French.
A_Malicious_Duck · 1 points · Posted at 00:12:46 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
Oh ok, that's embarrassing then.
A-Grey-World · 3 points · Posted at 00:23:34 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
It is a silly word. Queue
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 22:11:14 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
It feels more like torture than mastery.
[deleted] · 9 points · Posted at 16:44:50 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Luckily not as bad as Star Wars.
tc1991 · 6 points · Posted at 17:01:02 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
There wasn't that much bureaucracy in Harry Potter, no Ofsted inspections, no Health and Safety, no diversity awareness training or coffee cup carrying certification...
imacultclassic · 3 points · Posted at 15:58:57 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
That was the best one!
kortochgott · 2 points · Posted at 21:25:03 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Every goddamn early Johnny Cash song.
Speech500 · 1 points · Posted at 23:01:00 on April 9, 2015 · (Permalink)
Yeah, my story has a train as a pretty pivotal plot point
NineteenthJester · 1 points · Posted at 03:10:56 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
Stretching it, the sled in The Giver.
TheKingOfGhana · 1 points · Posted at 04:13:36 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
I mean it's the 'riding off into the sunset' but instead of Lone Man it's Young Lovers
BackwardsSnake · 19 points · Posted at 16:09:42 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
I know this is kinda out of place in this sub but I'm reminded of SNL's hilarious Group Hopper sketch.
Rekthor · 61 points · Posted at 18:32:11 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
You know, just once, can we see a dystopian novel where the heroic resistance are really just a bunch of glory-boy twats mislead by some ideology to think that the massive totalitarian state is actually the bad guys, when in reality they're the good guys? There aren't enough stories where we see a defense of that Hobbes-ian version of the world, which claims that any government, no matter how tyrannical, is always better than anarchy.
Or you could take it to a meta level. For example, you know how every single massive dystopian state is brought down by a bunch of teenagers wearing coats two sizes too big? Why don't we have our main character be a 45 year old, single man (channeling Arthur Dent) whose job it is to consistently stop poorly thought-out revolutionary attempts by teenagers and twenty-somethings? And 30% of the novel is just him playing straight man while he shoots revolutionaries in the sewer who are trying to kill the power to the whole city.
At least it'd be original.
AskMrScience · 50 points · Posted at 18:58:27 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
I really appreciated that the third Hunger Games book [spoilers]
.
..
...
....
ran with this a bit, by showing that the District 13 people who Katniss works with aren't fundamentally any better than the government currently in place. It was necessary to disrupt the current system, but the revolutionaries weren't painted as righteousness personified. It was very much a case of "Anyone who wants power that badly shouldn't have it."
[deleted] · 22 points · Posted at 20:26:04 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
In responce to your story about the middle aged man fighting revolutionaries...what about a 40 something year old man whose marriage is in a slump whose job it is to hunt down and kill androids that are basically slaves to a terrible system biased against them?
Cause that book has been written and it's amazing
PsychoticHobo · 2 points · Posted at 07:08:31 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
That book sounds interesting, what's it called?
bovisrex · 1 points · Posted at 13:37:31 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
If you're being sarcastic, I understand, though to be fair, I speak it more than I detect it. If you're not, it's called Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep and it's by Phillip K Dick. The movie version is also well done though there are moments of extreme futility in the book that didn't make the transition to the screen.
PsychoticHobo · 2 points · Posted at 16:56:47 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
Nope, completely serious, thanks. I'll check it out.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 16:26:54 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
"Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?" By Philip K Dick.
They based blade runner off of it lol. Blade Runner is very different from do androids dream but they work on similar themes and should almost be considered companion pieces lol.
PsychoticHobo · 1 points · Posted at 16:58:07 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
Thanks, I'll check it out!
Kiram · 32 points · Posted at 22:10:11 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
I have this idea for a YA-dystopia style novel kicking around in my head. It would follow two separate, parallel stories of young people rallying against their dystopian society, only for the reveal to come that one if then was in the past, and the other is currently rebelling against the society that the first one set up, or helped to set up. Maybe even have the first hero still alive, but with a greater understanding of the compromises required to make the world actually function.
snitchcharm · 9 points · Posted at 00:32:10 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
As a political theory major and YA fan, this sounds awesome.
Kiram · 3 points · Posted at 01:05:45 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
I've had the idea for a long while now, after studying how after basically 90% of violent revolutions, the government Chaves, but conditions don't necessarily get better.
apotcha · 2 points · Posted at 04:31:18 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
I would definitely read that book.
nonotion · 1 points · Posted at 08:27:28 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
Alternatively, add the mind-fuck twist of an ambiguous timeline, and use it as a device to highlight the faults inherent?
amoryamory · 1 points · Posted at 20:36:12 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Hey, but the teenage market wouldn't buy those books!
I'm well up for a defence of the Hobbesian conception of the world, though. Apart from Atlas Shrugged.
somegetit · 12 points · Posted at 15:50:58 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Relevant SNL sketch: the Group Hopper.
fancycephalopod · 13 points · Posted at 17:26:47 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
So basically the entire Divergent series.
Heliyum2 · 13 points · Posted at 22:04:15 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
My parents always fully believed in the system. Or had they?
AgentFreckles · 9 points · Posted at 21:42:27 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
The love triangles in YA in general kills me. It just keeps happening. ALL OF THEM. ALL OF THEM HAVE A LOVE TRIANGLE. It is like the bread and butter of their plot line too.
A-Grey-World · 3 points · Posted at 00:27:30 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
It annoys me too. A few good YA manage to avoid it. Harry Potter deals with it quite well. His Dark Materials, Enders Game, off the top of my head.
Incidentally, the ones I actually like...
Aethe · 6 points · Posted at 15:41:48 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Not so far removed from fantasy cliches either!
[deleted] · 6 points · Posted at 16:31:25 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
That twitter account is a thing of beauty.
Gh0stiee · 9 points · Posted at 18:36:43 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
As a YA dystopia fan I've seen all of these cliches numerous times, yet I can't stop reading these books... Someone help me.
sykilik101 · 8 points · Posted at 15:30:31 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
As someone who wants to write romantic YA akin to Sarah Dessen or Susane Colasanti, not sure how I should take this. XD
MadmanPoet · 24 points · Posted at 16:15:27 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
As a stern warning or a how-to guide. Your call.
sykilik101 · 13 points · Posted at 16:39:28 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
I'm gonna take it as "these are clichés you see a lot; try not to use too many of them" and hope for the best.
thudly · 10 points · Posted at 16:58:42 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
There's a reason why people notice deja vu when it happens in real life. It snaps you out of whatever trance you were in. You don't want your readers to be snapped out of the story spell by a clunky cliche.
sykilik101 · 2 points · Posted at 17:17:30 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Good point. I'll keep that in mind as I write. =)
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:21:50 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Lol.
Be aware of clichés and use them well. Know when they're effective to your story and use them then, and know when they're a replacement for a better idea and avoid them.
sykilik101 · 1 points · Posted at 21:13:21 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Yeah, at the moment, I'm reading more YA romance books to figure out what the usual tropes are, and seeing where they work and where they don't, and learning to identify them when I come across them. The last time I wanna do is ruin my story with a badly-used cliché.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 06:01:08 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)*
[deleted]
sykilik101 · 1 points · Posted at 06:02:44 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
It'd be nice to make money, but I'd rather my writing be quality. =P
i8pikachu · 10 points · Posted at 17:52:47 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
I never understood how the physical strength of adolescent girls in these books/movies is far more powerful than adolescent boys.
Astrokiwi · 11 points · Posted at 19:02:26 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
In Divergent it actually explicitly says when she's doing close combat training that she's definitely weaker than the boys. She manages to sort of hold her own eventually, but she never gets to be Buffy.
RaeNezL · 10 points · Posted at 20:01:19 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Agreed. Divergent states multiple times that Tris has to rely on cunning, speed, and sometimes tricks in order to beat her opponents. And several times she either scrapes by or she fails fantastically. That's actually one of the things I liked about Tris.
Divergent keeps Tris at a level of physical ability that's believable for me. It doesn't take the trope of a girl who becomes capable (which she does!) and make her superhero capable to the point she's besting boys twice her size on sheer power alone.
[deleted] · 8 points · Posted at 18:23:27 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 02:12:16 on February 13, 2015 · (Permalink)
But consider her diet. Thanks to the mad hunting and gathering skills she's eating better than many of her peers. She's out in the fresh air getting exercise. It does kind of make sense that she'd be strong in comparison to some of her less well-fed male peers.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 22:28:50 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
I read a lot of YA fiction (I work with kids. I have to be "cool" and know what they're reading). The girls are never really on par with physical strength of boys, but they are usually more agile than the boys.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 17:02:08 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
So formulaic it's like narrative Sweet N Low. Won't stop anybody from reading though!
LeakyComputers · 3 points · Posted at 05:37:19 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
"Mom! Dad! I'm falling in love with someone with a shady past who's significantly older than me. Mom? Dad? Where are you guys?"
queenofseacows · 5 points · Posted at 15:23:20 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Is this your twitter account? I followed it.
dragon567 · 4 points · Posted at 14:29:58 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Are all the clichès a bad thing?
owennb · 20 points · Posted at 14:37:10 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
If you understand the clichés of the genre, you can subvert them. Maybe your dystopia takes place in what used to be Australia... Wait, Mad Max.
[deleted] · 5 points · Posted at 16:52:30 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Also Total Recall. Although that is more of a post-apocalyptic, I guess?
nashife · 6 points · Posted at 18:00:46 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
There is a lot of overlap between post-apocalyptic and dystopia.
terradi · 9 points · Posted at 15:11:56 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
No. But they are often predictable because they're so common. Sometimes that's okay, sometimes you want to subvert tropes or put a bit of a twist on them to come up with your own thing.
rough_outline · 5 points · Posted at 15:17:03 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
As always, depends on how they are used.
Cliches/tropes are not inherently bad.
thudly · 9 points · Posted at 14:33:45 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
They're not bad, if you're the first one to use them. If you're the 2145th person to use these cliches, it's very bad.
frostburner · 12 points · Posted at 14:36:26 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
That's not to say you can't use one or two though, past that point it's just annoying.
thudly · 14 points · Posted at 14:43:00 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
There are certain story tropes that are always used, and have been used throughout history. It could be called cliche for a bad guy to get comeuppance in the end, but that's always going to be popular. But if a story is just a cobbled-together collection of cliches written purely to capitalize on trends, most people are going to be too distracted by the familiarity to be lost in the story.
I guess there will always be a market for these books being sold to a new generation of early readers who haven't been beaten to death with these cliches yet. If a tired cliche is new to you, you'll still be lost in the story. But in the grand scheme of things, your story will be forgotten. It's better to be original.
Rekthor · 3 points · Posted at 18:38:21 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
I wouldn't go so far as to say that a cliche is always bad, but you need to put your own spin on it to make it passable, let alone good.
thudly · 2 points · Posted at 18:41:47 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)*
Some cliches are alright. But they're usually always going to break the fourth wall with an experienced reader.
A woman I know published a book, and right on page one, she had the main character look herself over in the mirror in order to establish what she looked like. I cringed. "No! Don't!"
Desuko · 1 points · Posted at 22:14:25 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Didn't Divergent do that with Tris' hair being brushed?
thudly · 1 points · Posted at 00:32:44 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
I haven't read Divergent, but I know that's one of the most tired cliche's from romance novels there is.
"She looked at herself in the mirror. Her blonde hair was perfect. Her blue eyes looked ravishing. Her breasts were full and tempting in her low-cut black dress."
The point of it is to show instead of telling, but you're basically telling anyway, so why not just say she's blonde, has blue eyes, and big knockers, or whatever.
helpingfriendlybook · 3 points · Posted at 16:50:12 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
It's not a cliche if you're the first.
thudly · -1 points · Posted at 17:02:38 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
A hammer was still a hammer for the very first guy to use one. But when you're the first to use a cliche, there are not as many negative consequences, because it's not a known cliche, yet.
helpingfriendlybook · 8 points · Posted at 17:27:29 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
I'm sorry, I disagree, a cliche is something that, by its very nature, is overused - it's not that it's not a known cliche, it's simply not a cliche at all until it becomes overused
thudly · 0 points · Posted at 17:32:18 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
A cliche could also be considered an idea that's so generic it leaves itself open to overuse. But something that's so specific and unique it could never become a cliche because its re-use would be obvious cannot be called a cliche. Therefore, a cliche can still be a cliche, even on its very first use, at least by my definition.
Cereborn · 1 points · Posted at 01:40:04 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
No. Nothing is inherently a cliché. It becomes a cliché through use. And nothing is too unique to get overused. Once upon a time, an angsty pretty-boy vampire in love with a human woman was unique.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 16:27:27 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
You don't have to be first, cliches are fine if not overused in a work. Pretty much everything is a cliche now.
Ninjasantaclause · 0 points · Posted at 23:34:23 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
There is nothing new under the sun
torgo_phylum · 2 points · Posted at 16:21:46 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
If they are used to the point where anyone reading the first half of your book pretty much know how the second half is going to go without having to read it, then yeah. If you're book is cliched, but still unpredictable, it's usually fine. It mostly depends on how well read your readership is.
gibmelson · 1 points · Posted at 15:23:43 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Cliché isn't an objective thing - it's a word used to express the opinion that something lacks originality or is overused. What makes something actually lack originality or feel overused, has more to do with how careful, deliberate, or sloppy/lazy the author is with the techniques he uses in his craft. E.g. stormy weather may be used to signal a time of turmoil and tension - and depending on how the writer uses it can either fall into the background consciousness of the reader or it can stand out like a huge cliché.
pumpkinpulp · 1 points · Posted at 17:51:52 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
I don't think they're a bad thing at all for YA fiction. All YA and children's books are going to seem full of tropes to an adult. The actual target readers are new around here. They're struggling with those issues for the first time. Most 'grownup' writing is the same in theme, just more subtly written.
nashife · 1 points · Posted at 18:04:40 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Not necessarily bad, no. Think of them like the common conventions and patterns in the genre. Successfully or effectively using a trope/cliche has to do with how you execute it. Is your way of telling this kind of story fresh and original? Do you ADD to the genre somehow with your original take on these themes?
Or did you just write yet-another-story-that's-the-same-as-all-the-rest?
Following the tropes and satisfying your audience's expectations can be INCREDIBLY lucrative (thus you see so many movie deals for pretty conventional stories), but may earn scorn from writers who think "selling out" is shameful.
carnage_panda · 5 points · Posted at 18:36:12 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
ITT: Misunderstanding of the word cliche and one of the selling points of YA novels.
Workaphobia · 2 points · Posted at 23:29:18 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Is there a difference?
carnage_panda · 3 points · Posted at 00:01:20 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
I was forced to watch Divergent by my sister. I feel that a lot of the movie had a metric fuckton of wasted space. The story doesn't even begin until near the end. I'm not sure if the source material wasted that much time, but god damn that movie was an abomination.
But these were the kinds of stories in the YA category that I ate up when I was her age as well. Adults are problematic, blah blah blah. Of course, at the same time, I've been trying to write my own stories for a long time, and even then I would recognize tropes, cliches, and the like, and especially if something was horribad I would openly criticize it.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:20:32 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
This post made my day.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:26:42 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
kokonut10 · 2 points · Posted at 23:00:34 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
I agree 100%, the Gone series was excellent, reminded me a bit of Under the Dome by Stephen King. Enjoyed both a whole lot.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 23:29:39 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Fun fact, Michael Grant is the husband of K.A. Applegate, and helped write Animorphs.
LordQuagga · 2 points · Posted at 18:33:47 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
I didn't even attribute the train thing with any one book, I just cracked up.
Fenrirr · 2 points · Posted at 23:52:48 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Reminds me of @worstmuse
Are there any more accounts like this?
🎙️ jae_bird · 2 points · Posted at 00:28:46 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
check out https://twitter.com/GuyInYourMFA (although I'm biased...)
PsychoSemantics · 1 points · Posted at 06:12:57 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
Biased how? Is it your account? I love it :D
Xyyzx · 2 points · Posted at 01:21:12 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)*
You know, I went to see Ex Machina at the cinema the other day (fantastic film by the way) and attached was a hilarious trailer for one of the latest adaptations of a YA dystopian fantasy/sci-fi series, in which I reckoned every single line spoken was a well trodden cliché.
...I was going to link it here but there are so many similar movies currently in production and it was so totally generic in every respect that I can't find the damned thing.
Edit: Ah, I've got it!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suZcGoRLXkU
I suppose it's not quite every line but it's very, very close.
LeakyComputers · 2 points · Posted at 05:33:43 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
"I will marry someone I met in high school instead of dumping him for someone I met in college."
chopmist · 4 points · Posted at 19:30:57 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
We need to get rid of the poets, too
Rimbaud82 · 0 points · Posted at 19:33:20 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
What the fuck are you on about? Get rid of poetry?
chopmist · 2 points · Posted at 05:44:37 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
In 'The Republic,' Socrates banishes poets - he says they corrupt our souls, know nothing of what they speak on, and only imitate!
Rimbaud82 · 0 points · Posted at 15:13:07 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
And what? Its in The Republic so it must be true? Utter nonsense. In The Apology Socrates says that poets are like diviners, who say many fine things from a kind of inspiration or genius.
chopmist · 3 points · Posted at 23:28:53 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
Oh man no! I was not being serious - the twitter account was made for humor as was my comment. I'm sorry if it seemed like I was being genuine. I enjoy a good portion of poetry!
Astrokiwi · 3 points · Posted at 19:46:41 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
I often think that the reason that so much science fiction is dystopian fiction comes from a bit of a lack of imagination and historical arrogance. The implication is that the society that I live in right now today is the best society there could ever be, so if a future society is different from my society in any way, then there must secretly be something horribly wrong with it.
TheForceiswithus · 2 points · Posted at 18:39:03 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
Show, don't tell (unless it's in tiny, narrative chunks, which is cool).
JockCousteau · 1 points · Posted at 19:25:47 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
I understand the joke having watched the first two Hunger Games movies but this seems to be a newer trend in this subgenre.
Books like Feed and The Giver that I read at that age didn't really deal with the same types of things.
Workaphobia · 3 points · Posted at 23:28:43 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
and
and
sounds pretty Giver to me.
JockCousteau · 2 points · Posted at 00:58:29 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)*
Ha. Very good point. It has been a long time since I"ve read them.
Workaphobia · 1 points · Posted at 23:26:53 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
God I love these accounts.
cmbel2005 · 1 points · Posted at 01:49:43 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
It would be interesting to see what people think about the various genres. Does anyone know of a funny yet true list of cliches, like this one, for adult science fiction??
MShades · 1 points · Posted at 03:31:57 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
I read some of these (and some of the comments), and then my colleague sent me this: The Quiz Broadcast
Raltie · 1 points · Posted at 05:45:30 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
I'm so so so glad that none of these fit my own writing
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 07:33:58 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)*
I always knew that I'd love both dystopian and YA genre. I almost never read one o like though. The lack of self awareness in most of them is unbelievable.
What bothers me the most is when the are written by people who clearly never lived in disorder. You just read it and know that the only time they didn't live without running water was for some overseas "now I'm authentic" tour.
Then again my own story has at least one cliché that is in it. So. A bit of a spin but still.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 08:06:46 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
I'm currently writing a screenplay set in a very monotone and boring end of the world scenario, trying to aovid nearly every trope I can. So far I only count two of these that I've hit dead on.
I find it funny I'm trying to write my characters to be as boring and normal as possible.
idoescompooters · 1 points · Posted at 00:29:17 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
YA dystopian novels make me want to puke.
SeeFree · -4 points · Posted at 15:13:47 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
I really don't see a problem. I don't know if the "there are 7 kinds of stories" thing has been examined in this sub or not. Regardless, good writing doesn't have to be original. Just repackage the stuff we like in pleasing new ways and we'll be happy.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 16:22:39 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
SeeFree · 4 points · Posted at 16:27:12 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)*
I guess so. Yikes. Look at all these downboats! Stories about adolescents dealing with the weirdness and wonder of transitioning from children to adults while living in a dystopic society are entertaining. The market for them isn't going away. Circlejerking about cliches and pretending you're a serious writer is more fun though, I guess.
didmyhairgood · 3 points · Posted at 16:42:35 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
A solid chunk of this sub writes genre fiction anyway, so I have no idea what this high horse nonsense is all about. (It's bad if teen girls like it, I guess.) It's not like you're all Jonathan Franzen here.
sgtoox · -3 points · Posted at 00:21:58 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
I didn't subscribe to this subreddit so I could be smug and laugh at other people's writing.
Of course it will be tripe, it is Young Author literature. Why on earth would anyone even waste time looking through this? It is like people ironically watching Jersey Shore. Whether you are doing it because you enjoy it or because you love making fun of it, either way, you are still reading/watching tripe. WHich is fine, but then posting it on here to have a circle-jerk laugh about it is obnoxious. IF people want to waste their time reading drivel, let them, no need to go around and show everyone else "Hey look at this awful writing everyone, what a laugh!"
sethg · 1 points · Posted at 02:31:28 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
As with any other genre, there is some excellent YA out there. Scott Westerfeld is good even when he writes a dystopian novel (Pretties and its sequels). The Hunger Games IMHO actually wasn’t so bad. But YA, like any other genre, also has its share of disposable trend-following pap that deserves to be mocked.
sgtoox · 1 points · Posted at 03:24:54 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
While every genre will certainly have masterpieces among them. Overall, let's be serious, you are not going to be getting the same caliber of literature as say 19th century Russian literature, or early 20th century American literature etc. etc.
I doubt anyone picks up a YA book expecting prose on par with Lolita, or character depth on par with Dostoevsky. WHich doesn't mean there aren't incredibly good YA books out there. But to post YA writing, from twitter nonetheless, and then proceed to lambaste it for its boorishness, seems silly. It would be much nicer and much more unexpected to post YA lit, from a twitter feed, that is great, and then we could talk about how innovative and great it is, instead of making smug remarks.
Stone_Conqueror · 1 points · Posted at 05:47:16 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)*
You do realize that a lot of classic literature started out as YA, right? The novel was for a long time seen as "frivolous" and unfit for high-brow consumption, and what is now considered "classic" was once just as ridiculed and reviled as modern YA lit is today.
Of course The Brothers Karamazov isn't written in the same style as Harry Potter, but that's perfectly fine. It would be dreadful if every single book out there was written like a Dostoevsky novel. Its initial audience doesn't mean Harry Potter is inherently less deserving of admiration or praise, or that its presence on a bookshelf leaves less room for "the classics". Good writing is good writing, no matter the genre.
Critcho · 0 points · Posted at 08:39:46 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
By calling it 'tripe' and 'drivel' you're actually being a lot more aloof and insulting to the genre than the twitter account is.
sgtoox · 1 points · Posted at 14:39:06 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
Yes, but I didn't repost it to a subreddit for the sole purpose to making fun of it.
PopularBean · 0 points · Posted at 08:24:35 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
True that.
[deleted] · -9 points · Posted at 18:12:37 on February 11, 2015 · (Permalink)
This is literally just the plot of good books that the autor wished they wrote but is instead writing them down as cliches. Its like saying that writing a book about a bunch of wizard kids at a boarding school is cliche. No, its not been done much, but its been done right. Its not cliche, its just done.
Fistocracy · 1 points · Posted at 00:24:32 on February 12, 2015 · (Permalink)
No, this is just literally every SF dystopian cliche ever mixed in with an obligatory scoop of awkward-coming-of-age cliches, because you can't do YA dystopia (or YA anything) without some awkward coming of age.