The Blockbuster I used to frequent is still open and about 3 months ago they messaged me (12 years too late and with atrocious spelling) "You may be unawarre you have a balance owing at Blockbuster To avoid further fees please pay in store within 14 days and we will half the debt"
Knowledge saves the day! Have an upvote you treasure of a human being you.
[deleted] ยท 11 points ยท Posted at 20:06:20 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I'm sure there's some debt collection agency out there calling someone's grandparent weekly asking them to settle their debt for a long overdue copy of Soul Plane
[deleted] ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 21:00:56 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
Many areas don't, yes. They could get satellite internet or even wireless in some areas, but its stupid expensive. I would still pay for it no matter what though.
I recently moved out of a house that was 25 miles from Seattle and I couldn't get high speed Internet there. Best I could get was 3 mbps. Hence why I don't live there anymore. We rented a lot of movies.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 04:59:25 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Ha remember when a megabit/second was fast? I remember a commercial for 512k that just blew my mind.
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 21:36:12 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I kept a game from mine. Then traded it in for a profit.
Yes! And the evil monarchy are the originators of the capitalist system designed from its conception to oppress the workers and rip the free spirit from all men!
Man, I need to stop, I sound like an actual communist.
McBEAST ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 18:38:24 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Um, yeah. That's a really bad thing. Communism is tyrannical, violent, and absurdly oppressive. It causes incalculable human misery and is responsible for more than 150 million deaths in the last century.
Communism is tyrannical, violent, and absurdly oppressive. It causes incalculable human misery
Not like capitalism, of course. Mass poverty, great depressions, class divides and the privatization of government, healthcare, education, the military, the prison industry and access to drinking water never hurt anyone.
Communism killed millions of people (the highest estimate I've read was 100 million, but I guess another 50 couldn't hurt). Capitalism has killed billions, and counting.
kipz61 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:39:12 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Billions and counting. Sure. I'd love to see the sources for those numbers.
Poverty in a communist society makes poverty in a capitalist society look like an all-expenses-paid vacation. The two are incomparable, as you would know if you were at all educated about history. The Soviets commissioned mass showings of the movie The Grapes of Wrath in an attempt to display how miserable life was for the poor in America; and then had to ban the film when people left amazed at how even the poorest in American society lived better than the average middle-class Russian.
Speaking of being "educated about history", you're aware that the Soviets were state capitalists? No major society has ever been able to fully implement communism, and a nation forced into a military state, an ideology whose 'death toll' is largely comprised of a famine caused by trade blockades by fiercely capitalist nations, doesn't count.
People love to disassociate all deaths from capitalism because it's the 'default state' and therefore must be irrelevant. Weirdly enough, those same people decide that any and all deaths at the hands of the USSR are obviously the fault of communism - I wonder what number we'd reach if we did the same for capitalist nations.
"Riiiiiight, it's clearly the capitalists fault that the government-run farms in the Soviet Union were so incompetent and poorly managed that people starved by the millions. It's nice how you conveniently forget that most of those people died on purpose. It wasn't an accident, it was the deliberate starvation of millions of people because they were politically inconvenient and the Soviets found it easier to take their food and let them die than to fix their problems.
No the Soviets weren't State Capitalists. State Capitalism is a system where the state owns all means of production, but private property is still allowed; i.e. modern day China. This is different from communism where all goods and services are owned by the state, which is what was happening in the USSR.
...you're aware that the Soviets were state capitalists? No major society has ever been able to fully implement communism...
Damn Scots, they ruined Scotland!
People love to disassociate all deaths from capitalism because it's the 'default state' and therefore must be irrelevant.
People rarely blame capitalism because you don't see corporations fighting wars nowadays like Free Companies, and if a corporation does anything you think is wrong, you are free to boycott their goods and buy from a competitor.
Weirdly enough, those same people decide that any and all deaths at the hands of the USSR are obviously the fault of communism
People blame communism because government and goods are tied directly, they are one in the same since the law and goods are from one source, the government. There is no competition in a communist government because having one entity compete with itself would be detrimental, whether the economy is capitalist or communist.
I wonder what number we'd reach if we did the same for capitalist nations.
You'd reach a large number, but only because you don't understand that correlation doesn't equal causation.
absent-v ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 19:05:57 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I feel compelled to make the typical argument that since we've never actually had a true communist society on anything larger scale than roughly 10 hippies too high to be productive, we can't know for sure if it does or does not work.
No, you're right, clearly it's a coincidence that every single society that attempts communism ends in horrible poverty and tyranny. That's surely a coincidence and we should just keep trying because this time everything will work out great.
absent-v ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 20:26:11 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Jus sayin, worthy letting a hip try
Guy azzn,,,
Edit: That's the second time this weekend I've fallen asleep laying on top of my phone.
to be fair, it's like whoever wrote the article didn't even read his quotes. It's pretty clearly written with a message and agenda in mind, and makes all that pretty clear before it ever even gets to what his intention was.
[deleted] ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 22:54:52 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
People should be able to refer to me as godzilla as a pronoun and they shouldn't be punished. Punishing someone for using the wrong pronoun is stupid. Especially if there's no immediate signs someone is trans or genderqueer.
People in that thread keep saying there is "literally no downside" to the ability to select a pronoun at random. I would prefer not to degrade the English language any further.
It's not "degrading the English language", that sounds just as stupid as those people. It's trying to force people to change the way they naturally speak, which is oppression, not degradation.
Edit: Do you people know nothing about linguistics?
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 21:25:12 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
When this was first spooling up someone posted a picture of thiers as lord and savior. To make it better apperently he was Mexican and his name was jesus. His name offends both the left and the right it's beutiful.
Gozer the Tumblr. She will come in one of the pre-nonchosen genders. During the rectification of the Vagini, the Tumbler came as a large and moving Torg! Then, during the third reconciliation of the last of the Dharmic supplicants, they chose a new form for her: that of a giant Slor! Many Cis and Triggers knew what it was to be roasted in the depths of the Slor that day, I can tell you!
SplurgyA ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 19:33:45 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
But that's an honorific. "He" is still the pronoun in that example.
Too bad, thinking you're a fucking planet-ferret is about as abnormal as it gets.
grubas ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 00:41:27 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I have yet to met a fellow Doctor of Psychology who considers themselves normal. We all consider ourselves somewhat insane and pretty fucked in the head. Because if you are normal, there is something seriously wrong with you.
Cisgender means that your gender expression (in other words, how you dress and act) matches the gender you were assigned at birth. It's important to keep in mind that this is different than sexuality. Homosexual men and women can still be cisgender if they still express their gender in accordance with their assigned gender.
rburp ยท 9 points ยท Posted at 18:34:24 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Lol
[deleted] ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 18:53:28 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
lmfao I remember when i learned about cis and trans fatty acids and kept waiting for the lecture to get to the point where it talks about "deciding" which one the molecule would choose to be cause I'd only heard the ~current year~ usage of the terms
You clearly didn't get the point. It wasn't to make fun of ACTUAL trans people. It was making fun of those idiots who say they're trans because it's "trendy" and use pronouns like "bunself" or say they're Aesthetigender or some bs like that.
I don't think you understand the flak actual trans people get or that when you're ridiculing people for preferred pronouns to you it might not be directed at actual trans people but a lot of the folks laughing with you aren't on the same page.
It was absolutely to make fun of "actual" trans and genderqueer people. Demeaning any usage of nontraditional pronouns makes it exceptionally more difficult for the people that use them legitimately to be taken seriously. And it's not as if "actual" trans individuals are generally welcomed anyway.
All it takes for the Transgender community to understand how annoying they are, is for another more ridiculous group to begin demanding that everyone cater to them. Personally, I keep waiting for the Furry community to step up. "No, you must refer to me as bitch. I identify as a half-human, half-dog female. Respect my pronouns and my right to urinate on this tree."
Yeah, those trans freaks are definitely fighting for equal recognition just to annoy the straight people. Man, it's the blacks all over again, they sure were annoying when they were asking for the right to use the same bathrooms and schools as everyone else without being demeaned for their very presence!
Gender dysphoria is NOT a mental illness, and the tools for treating it absolutely do not consist of stigmatising the person for feeling how they do or seeking to restrict their preferred gender expression.
These are not real problems. These are weak minded individuals throwing a fit because we won't call them by their stupid pronouns or some other tumblr-like shit.
I originally said that trans and genderqueer people are fighting for equal acceptance and validation from society. The other commenter said "It is a mental illness."
If I was concerned with just responding directly to the claim they made, I would say, "No, gender dysphoria isn't a mental illness." Period. But that doesn't advance the conversation, and it doesn't address the underlying implication of that statement. By calling it a mental illness, he is implicitly stigmatising and belittling people who suffer from gender dysphoria or struggling with a lack of a societal acceptance.
[deleted] ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 19:19:57 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You're making a very good point, and of course it's important to try and make sure that we're on the same page as the people we communicate with so we can share the greatest possible understanding between ourselves, but in this situation he meant exactly what I thought he meant, and that same commenter went on to say "These are not real problems. These are weak minded individuals throwing a fit because we won't call them by their stupid pronouns," so your comment unfortunately doesn't amount to much of use.
[deleted] ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 19:10:55 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Why can't we also pretend to be the race we prefer? I feel like a trans Samoan.
Cool, nothing is stopping you from moving to Samoa and living as a Samoan. If someone says, "I was born in America, but I feel like I really belong in France," nobody bats an eyelash. If someone says, "I was born a man, but I feel like I really belong in a woman's body," people freak the fuck out.
[deleted] ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 19:18:07 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Fine but moving to samoa dosesnt make me Samoan. The same way dressing as a woman doesn't make me a woman.
The problem here is that you're conflating national origin with ethnic and racial identity, which is not an equivalent comparison to gender expression. Ethnic identity is something you are born into and become a part of whereas gender identity is something you're born with.
[deleted] ยท -2 points ยท Posted at 17:59:32 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
htepO ยท 510 points ยท Posted at 16:52:32 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I might be a little muddled in the head here, but are pronouns necessary in a conversation between two people? I don't really care either way what anyone identifies as, but I'd be referring to them as 'you,' rendering their chosen pronouns moot. Correct me if I'm wrong.
DUDE, you nailed it. I couldn't figure out what was bothering me about this.
In reality you will have a full conversation with someone and not refer to them by their gender pronoun. This opener forces an issue onto the conversation that was 99% likely to be absent.
It's not that we call everything dude necessarily, it's also because dude has become an interjection. When my computer isn't working and I shout "dude!", I'm not referring to the computer, just yelling an interjection. However I understand the sentiment.
My friend is non-binary and they have no problem with Dude because it's essentially gender neutral now. There's been a song about it. It's 20 years old by now. https://youtu.be/FqMODweN8lQ
[deleted] ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 19:24:28 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
What if the conversation starts referencing other people in multiple tenses?
[deleted] ยท 21 points ยท Posted at 19:15:06 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
How is it an issue? I don't believe in the whole pronoun thing, but just asking the question is pretty harmless. It wouldn't bother me any more than someone asking me what my astrological sign is.
Believing in it is one thing. Bringing it up in casual conversation with someone you don't know so well isn't.
Ryugi ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:16:06 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I would rather someone ask me than assume.
[deleted] ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 22:50:01 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I don't think that's reasonable to expect. Am I just supposed to now ask what someone's pronouns are every time I meet a new person?
Ryugi ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 01:39:11 on October 12, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Nope. The context is: people who you are going to be working with, being associated with, etc, for any amount of time longer than only one meeting. For example, a coworker. A fellow classmate in a university course. Etc.
[deleted] ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 03:40:55 on October 12, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
That's pretty much everyone I meet.
Ryugi ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 13:35:19 on October 12, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Well, if you will have to talk about them as a part of your average duties with others (for example, "s/he is ready for the next costume change" or "s/he is done with those reports") then you may want to consider it, should it not be obvious, and should your workplace be an inclusive workplace as opposed to a highly-regulated workplace.
For example, context of setting. In artistic industries you are more likely to meet LGBT+ colleagues who are "out" and who have spesific desires about how they are spoken to. In, say, an office job, everyone is meant to be a number. Personal needs and ideals are meaningless.
So basically learn to judge the context of the situation.
[deleted] ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 19:22:05 on October 12, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
The burden should be on them to communicate those desires to me, not the other way around.
I'm gay, but I don't expect to be asked my sexuality by everyone I meet and wouldn't be offended if, say, a woman assumed I was straight by hitting on me.
That crap about being numbers is bullshit. Maybe management treats employees that way, but employees don't generally treat their peers that way. People are people regardless of their profession, gender identity, or sexuality.
Ryugi ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 23:43:50 on October 12, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Then do whatever you want, I don't care. I'm not the boss of you. What was the point of asking me a ton of questions if you don't even care?
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 00:48:06 on October 13, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I asked you one question in an attempt to get you to realize how unreasonable your request is, which is what the rest of the discussion was about.
Ryugi ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 16:02:10 on October 14, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Its not unreasonable though, in the right context(s)/circumstances.
What is unreasonable is intentionally arguing FOR disrespecting people when its really not that hard to just, not disrespect people.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 17:00:53 on October 14, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You haven't given me a circumstance where it is reasonable. You've just said it's basically expected that you ask everyone you meet.
It's also not hard to just not feel disrespected when 9 times out of ten it is possible to tell someone's preferred pronouns just by looking at them. Also, I'm not arguing for disrespecting them. I'm just arguing for treating trans people like everyone else. If they want to be accommodated differently, it is on them to make that known.
Do you think it's reasonable for me to expect someone to ask one's sexuality before hitting on that person?
Ryugi ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:21:05 on October 14, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Ok well obviously in the situation where you are more likely to have a lot of LGBT+ coworkers its kind of a given.
9 times out of ten it is possible to tell someone's preferred pronouns just by looking at them
Source?
Do you think it's reasonable for me to expect someone to ask one's sexuality before hitting on that person?
How about just not hitting on people, and instead talk to others as though they are people not sex objects?
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:19:37 on October 14, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Ok well obviously in the situation where you are more likely to have a lot of LGBT+ coworkers its kind of a given.
Um, no, that is not obvious, because that is not what we were talking about.
This is from you:
The context is: people who you are going to be working with, being associated with, etc, for any amount of time longer than only one meeting. For example, a coworker. A fellow classmate in a university course. Etc.
Source?
Trans population is, what, 1% of the total population? That means 99% of people are not trans and identify as their gender according to their sex organs. Are you telling me you can't tell the difference between males and females? Keep in mind you only need to be able to identify ~9/10 of them, as I said 9/10 not 99/100.
How about just not hitting on people, and instead talk to others as though they are people not sex objects?
Seriously? What kind of world do you live in? There are places where hitting on people is normal and accepted, and there are places and occasions where people consent to being sex objects. Have you been to a gay bar, a strip club, night clubs, bath houses, brothels?
Ryugi ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 15:25:19 on October 15, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Trans population is, what, 1% of the total population? That means 99% of people are not trans and identify as their gender according to their sex organs.
Source?
FYI - "hitting on" someone is treating them as sex objects. And I have been to night clubs, gay bars, and bath houses. Absolutely no flirting occurs in bath houses because people were just there to get clean and enjoy relaxing in the sauna in a traditional style setting... In fact it was a rule that sexual harassment or flirting with others would be grounds for removal. And at the night clubs I have seen many women get hit on and then aggressively attacked for refusing advances. And at gay bars people just have more class.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:09:13 on October 15, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I don't know why you couldn't just google "trans population percentage".
When did I imply that hitting on someone isn't sexually objectifying them? I literally gave you a list of places where it's okay, and you're still arguing about it? You clearly haven't been to a gay bath house. People go there to have sex and watch others have sex. You ignored brothels and strip clubs, and gay bars are the least classy kind of bar I have ever been to.
You do realize the down vote button isn't an "I disagree with you" button, right?
Ryugi ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 20:27:24 on October 15, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I don't know why it's so hard for you to back up your claims at all.
Hitting on someone vs speaking to them implies sexual objectification.
I ignored the places I haven't been to, and I told you about the places I have. Your question was whether or not I had ever been to them. I answered.
And, don't flatter yourself. I don't bother downvoting comments. You do know our conversation is public, right?
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:38:11 on October 15, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Your source is for sex variations, which covers a vast range of conditions, not just people who don't look like their gender. So my estimates, which were very conservative, still hold. So, no, I don't need to ask every person I meet what their pronouns are if 9/10 times I can tell without asking. They or the person who introduces us can tell me if they want to be accommodated specially.
You ready to walk back your comment about not hitting on people and just talking to them, then, since I've clearly established that there are occasions when hitting on people is allowed?
You're trying to tell me that someone is somehow following our conversation on a six day old post and downvoting my comments shortly after you reply every time? And not up voting your comments? Come on...
Ryugi ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 15:07:10 on October 16, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You're trying to tell me that someone is somehow following our conversation on a six day old post and downvoting my comments shortly after you reply every time? And not up voting your comments? Come on...
Who am I to judge what other redditors do with their time?
I was specifically and obviously referring to
Total number of people whose bodies differ from standard male or female one in 100 births
Meaning: These people do not look typically male or typically female.
Meaning: If you work with more than 100 people, at least a few of them are bound to be intersex. If you consider all other forms of intersex variations, even moreso. As this does not include transgender people, it's even moreso.
You ready to walk back your comment about not hitting on people and just talking to them, then, since I've clearly established that there are occasions when hitting on people is allowed?
Doesn't matter, it's still trashy imo, and you literally cannot change my mind on that, because it's my opinion. So grow up and deal with other people judging you for your behavior.
[deleted] ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 19:34:46 on October 16, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I said 9/10, you asked for a source. I gave you one. Then you give a source that doesn't change anything. 2/100 is still less than 1/10. And no, if you work with more than 100 people (nobody actually regularly works with this many people), that does not mean that a few of them are bound to be intersex. Per your source, 1 of them probably is.
You're incredibly childish, lying about the downvoting thing, arguing for no reason (first about the number of trans, then about the hitting on people thing).
I've given counterarguments to each of your original claims, now you're still holding on to the idea that I should accommodate trans people specially (might that have to do with the fact that you're trans and have a victim complex)? And you're also now changing your tune about hitting on people, labelling consenting adults as trashy for acting on their sexual desires. Hypocritical, much? You want people to be accepting of your personal, sexual abnormalities, but now it's trashy for others to indulge theirs in private places where it's socially acceptable?
Ryugi ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 00:58:58 on October 17, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Did you miss the part where only 1/100 accounts for only one of the more than ten variations thereof, which doesn't even include transgenderism/gender dysphoria? As in, there are far more?
You're childish for being so obsessed with internet points and being so accusatory about it as though it means anything. Lmao. I guess you're not worth having a conversation with.
It's not trashy to have sexual urges. It is trashy to "hit on" people. There is a difference between flirting/courtship and hitting on people.
[deleted] ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 01:24:27 on October 17, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
From your source:
Hereโs what we do know: If you ask experts at medical centers how often a child is born so noticeably atypical in terms of genitalia that a specialist in sex differentiation is called in, the number comes out to about 1 in 1500 to 1 in 2000 births. But a lot more people than that are born with subtler forms of sex anatomy variations, some of which wonโt show up until later in life.
Obsessed? I made one offhand comment about it. You're nuts.
And no, hitting on people is a form of flirting. Why don't you try and give me a form of hitting on someone that couldn't be classified as flirting?
Ryugi ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 02:41:54 on October 17, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Pickup lines, negging, inappropriately-timed sexual comments (such as for example, walking up and telling a girl she has nice breasts before even saying hello) are all examples of hitting on that are derogative and treating another person as a sex object vs a person, that are also not flirting.
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Stonn ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 20:12:33 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
There are languages where it would be the case though - like most Slavic languages.
Gender identity stuff is inherently wrapped up with narcissism. People just get massively fixated on how the world sees them, imagining how they're talked about when they aren't around, ensuring everyone knows exactly how they feel about everything all the time. This isn't to say that every narcissist is going to want to switch genders, but everyone who cares enough about their body and appearance to not just go with what they've got and live life has to have a decent amount of self-obsession to make it that deep a focus of their life and identity.
CloudEnt ยท 156 points ยท Posted at 19:19:34 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I photographed an LGBTQ ad campaign and the whole team struggled with this while discussing the models we worked with. One of our grips used the wrong pronoun for a trans woman ("We could put him in front of that red wall...") and the air got sucked out of the room. I apologized and immediately implemented a system where we only used first names for the rest of the shoot. It was impossible to determine gender by sight in that environment. When a model would arrive we said the first name over the walkies in everyone's ear. We do that for every shoot now but I live in constant fear of making people uncomfortable because I'm terrible with names. It's a tough way to work but I don't see a way around it.
Alternatively everyone could be adults and assume correctly that an honest mistake was made by someone who is not close enough to any of them to really know any of that information.
Or we could just all feel awkward and angry for no reason.
ksaid1 ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 07:48:53 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Fair point, but it's not always safe for transgender people to assume that. Obviously in that specific environment nothing bad was gonna happen. But it's not unlikely that the model has been made fun of, harassed, or threatened for being transgender in the past. So I can understand why they would be a little on edge about it.
It's kind of an issue when people say that, because whilst almost all trans people will do that, these are people who are dealing with people doing it aggressively and deliberately every single day. I'm an intersex woman, so I get aggressively misgendered constantly by people who assume I'm trans (and apparently they would have an issue with this. I really do not understand why). When you're facing that every single day, that is unbelievably draining. It becomes so very hard for you to feel that every time it happens, it's not an attack.
Back-of-the-envelop calculation here, but I think 70% of the people I see on a regular basis use pronouns that are different to the ones they would have had used for them at birth. We live in a very progressive region, and yet I've still had to scrape transphobic slurs off the wall at my place of work. I've still had to have security escort people out for getting physically aggressive towards some of our trans staff members and clients who's only offence was to correct pronouns.
So yeah. "Acting like adults" is hard when so many people act like animals around you.
Them is actually a lot more difficult and vague when trying to use practically, as it could mean a number of different people rather than referring to one person. In the example, "We could put them in front of that red wall..." could be referring to an individual or the collective whole.
i'd bet you some people are offended by "them". no evidence, but with the vast spread of things people are offended by these days, i'd bet "them" is somewhere on the list.
apley ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 00:05:26 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Can confirm. Have a friend who identifies as two spirit who gets upset when someone refers to them as "them" or "they" and has some other pronoun I cant remember for the life of me.
(Although for the record I have several genderqueer/gender neutral friends who are awesome people and I have no issue with.)
It just makes it easier for you to identify crazy, wish I was at the right age or in college so I could be tagging all the people I met who were going through this phase right now so that in 2-5-10 years later I could have a good laugh with them, and to the ones who are assholes about it, throw it in their face and then have a laugh.
I'm not saying it's difficult or even that I have a problem with it, just that it's still relatively new to (American) mainstream society. It takes people time to make social adjustments we have spent a lifetime practicing.
Ain't nobody got time for that and maybe I'm just too old and stubborn or kind of an asshole. If you look like a dude, yous a dude, if you got tits, an ass, long hair and make up you are either a rockstar or a girl.
Ryugi ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 22:18:39 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
When one isn't sure, using a name instead of a gendered pronoun is safer overall and easier on everyone's stress levels. I approve of your idea for the system. And thank you for trying.
Even if you mess up. Try not to stress too much. Its completely ok to ask to confirm. For example, "[Ryugi] I forget, you prefer male or female pronouns? Sorry." Is totally cool. Or, "Shit, I forget your name and that's my bad, what is it? And while I'm at it, what's your preffered pronoun? Just for clarity's sake."
I am a transman who is also bad with names, so don't feel bad. I have accidentally misgendered people WAY too often.
htepO ยท 14 points ยท Posted at 19:37:24 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
My question was directed at how OP's title was phrased, where the resultant conversation would entail the usage of you/your/yourself and not third-person pronouns.
I understand that trans people do face difficulties with putting that information out there, but is that the best way to start a conversation? Given OP's scenario where the conversation is between two old friends, would a better way not be, when/if the friend's gender (identity) comes up, simply to go, "Here's the thing... [rational explanation here]?"
As a photographer who has to work regularly with diverse groups of people, would you like to add constantly tiptoeing around possible gender identity issues to the list of things you already do have to tiptoe around? Given that it was an LGBTQ campaign that you were shooting, was the onus of responsibility on you or on the clients to make sure that members of the group were identified correctly? What happens when you work with a group with two or more people with the same first name? Why is it always on you?
The problem I have with your thinking is that you seem to feel like its some significant burden for a person to intentionally try and prevent a queer person from feeling uncomfortable. I think cis people more or less owe it to queer people - groups that have only recently received acceptance or even acknowledgment - to provide an intentionally comfortable environment. Of course mistakes happen, but "tiptoeing" isn't as stressful as you make it seem. Not being acknowledged as the person you say you are sounds pretty stressful to me.
htepO ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 21:28:59 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
So you're going to discredit everything I said because you don't like that phrasing? How about this - queer people would really appreciate if you thought about anybody but yourself for once and didn't complain about learning new ways of addressing people. This is coming from a straight white male that started thinking about other people but himself for once.
I, a dude, with a penis that I grew myself, don't owe shit to anyone. The world isn't here to make all the special individual snowflake people comfortable. You want everyone to be treated equally, then you need to understand that the real world doesn't give a fuck about anybody.
I beg you to show me some sort of evidence that certain groups don't get fucked over more than any other group. Transgender people tend to feel particularly fucked over, to the point of killing themselves. But fuck them for asking that you actually think of them as their preferred gender, right?
Youre harping on me about sources and evidence and you link to a Huffington Post article? Eat me.
Give me a population that is marginalized for simply existing and has no means of defense, like people with developmental disabilities who have no voice for themselves, and I'll get up in arms.
Identity is important but it's not my responsibility to make people feel happy, it's on them.
I guess you could use you. I'm terrible with people's names as well and manage to get around it by saying "you" and gesturing. You could even say "if you in the blue top could stand over there...". But I guess that could be seen as rude as well!
[deleted] ยท -3 points ยท Posted at 20:37:16 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:42:51 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
bayerndj ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 22:06:56 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
someone
Wow, did just you assume that thing's species?
[deleted] ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 05:25:11 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
OMG seriously?
This people. This is why this postmodernist SocJus shit is completely fucking garbage and its SOLE purpose is to fracture a society.
This dude is actually getting anxiety by calling someone who looks like a man, a man.
In my experience, those who ask about my preferred pronoun are usually using it as a way to vocalize their own pronouns in a less awkward way. A passive less-aggressive way to establish their identity. Or someone who is new to Trans Culture and is trying to show support as an ally.
When in doubt, use "they/them". And honestly, if you use the wrong pronoun with someone you've just met, that's okay. Most people don't wear their gender on their sleeves. Just apologize and move on. Don't make a big deal out of it.
It was extreme sarcasm. I'm a guy. And like most guys would be insulted to be asked what my gender is when it's very clear. I'd also be insulted that they would assume I go in for that PC-bull
I'm fuck ugly, so if someone asks my gender, I might have a few hurt feelings.
murphs33 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 06:53:06 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
If you think it's insulting for someone to ask if you're a person who identifies as a different gender, then it sounds like you have a problem with transgender people. I mean, just because I'm straight, doesn't mean I'd find it insulting if someone asked what my sexual orientation is, but I'd question if someone who is insulted by that is homophobic, though.
I don't have a problem with transgender people. I have a problem with the people who encourage that particular delusion. It's ridiculous to even consider that someone would ask someone whether they believe they're a boy or a girl regardless of what they're body is. The body is all there is to sex and the relabeling of the word gender to mean some theoretical mental version of sex that can differ is ludicrous. It's a catalogued mental disability called gender dysmorphia. I mean if someone has a split personality disorder or schizophrenia or thinks they're an alien we help them. We give them medical treatment and counseling and encourage them to accept reality. But for some reason this stopped being the case for pretty much the exact same situation. Encouraging a person's mental illness is not heroic. It's wrong. You can't switch genders. If you don't have a Y chromosome you're not a male.
murphs33 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 12:38:42 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
It's a catalogued mental disability called gender dysmorphia
I'm having a hard time finding a reliable source that states gender dysmorphia as a mental disability. What I did find, however, is a link to the American Psychiatric Association stating that gender dysphoria (formally known as Gender Identity Disorder), is a condition where they treat the distress involved with seeing yourself as another gender than the one you're born as, not the gender identity itself (link).
When it comes to access to care, many of the treatment options for this condition include counseling,
cross-sex hormones, gender reassignment surgery, and social and legal transition to the desired gender
and
It is important
to note that gender nonconformity is not in itself a mental disorder. The critical element of gender dysphoria
is the presence of clinically significant distress associated with the condition.
and
Replacing โdisorderโ with โdysphoriaโ in the
diagnostic label is not only more appropriate and consistent with familiar clinical sexology terminology,
it also removes the connotation that the patient is โdisordered.โ
This mismatch between sex and gender identity can lead to distressing and uncomfortable feelings that are called gender dysphoria. Gender dysphoria is a recognised medical condition, for which treatment is sometimes appropriate. It's not a mental illness.
edit: I got one downvote, no reply, and you went on to reply to other things since. Funny that you had such strong opinions on gender dysmorphia (which you confused with body dysmorphia and gender dysphoria), but got stumped by actual facts, so you just downvoted instead.
You should try being mindful of trans and nb people who really appreciate when people don't jump to conclusions based on appearance, it's such a sweet reminder that people care about you. (:
I don't get the outrage, if cis people are excluded from trans/nb topics, they whine. People try to include them and they whine. The world doesn't revolve around being cis and when people ask you stuff like this it's to be respectful, if you identify as the gender you were born as just say your pronouns, it's not a jab at you looking, god-forbid, like a trans person...
You have a point, it's all about respect which I can in turn respect, but it suggests that they might be a little... off to ask you in a conversation what your gender pronoun is. It would generally be more respectful and socially acceptable (IMO) to refer to someone as the gender they appear to be, then apologise if you later find out that they identify as something else.
So basically I get that the woman OP was talking to was trying to be polite/respectful, but I think that she was a little lacking in tact when trying to go about showing that respect.
Except generally asking preferred pronouns causes more dysphoria for some trans people (particularly if they thought they were passing well). It does not solve the problem of misgendering.
I get misgendered about 95% of the time when people don't ask me what my pronouns are, so I'm very aware that I don't pass. When people ask me, I tend to get misgendered a whole lot less because, well, they know what my pronouns are.
Oligomer ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 02:42:16 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
When people ask me, I tend to get misgendered a whole lot less because, well, they know what my pronouns are.
Are you saying this from experience or speculating? I was at a meeting recently where we went around and introduced ourselves and also gave our preferred pronouns. One of the people was a trans man, but I would have assumed they were just a tomboy-ish girl. A little different scenario because it wasn't asked directly to this person, but it was more helpful than I would have expected.
One of the people was a trans man, but I would have assumed he was just a tomboy-ish girl.
ftfy
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 04:05:04 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It does not solve the problem.
It is there to help alleviate the problem however, i would much rather be asked than be called sir another 5 times during the conversation. This happens in doctor's offices, coffee shops, businesses etc. Cis people generally don't notice or care, but when it is a source of dysphoria for you, you damn well notice it.
Ryugi ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:27:37 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Unfortunately it's a lose-lose situation then - you either ask and be certain (while risking a slight upset) or you don't ask and guess (which risks an even bigger upset).
Of course, if people used the gender-neutral singular 'they' more often, this wouldn't be an issue.
You need their name and their pronoun in order to properly refer to someone in third person, otherwise without their pronoun you're stuck saying "luke went to luke's house and made luke's cousin a birthday card after eating luke's famous roast beef".
Still seems weird to ask out of the blue. If someone is very androgynous, NB, trans, or they use pronouns other than whatever most people would defer to, they'll know that and they'll probably tell you.
I get what you mean, but if you're already introducing each other (name, job, college major, where you live, etc), pronouns can easily just be another thing on the list.
Hmm, good point. Maybe OP's friend just wanted to be considerate if and when they would refer to OP in the third person. Trans* and nonbinary people are a lot more open about their identities now, so it doesn't hurt to ask.
[deleted] ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 04:05:42 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
This is literally the most likely thing, i don't understand how this freaks anyone out.
This thread is a burning heap of dung, so I don't know. I'll just carry on trying to be respectful of gender identities like a decent person.
[deleted] ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 04:40:52 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
This thread is a burning heap of dung
reddit on politics
Iramohs ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 18:59:56 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Usted is easier.
grubas ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 00:46:57 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I use first names in conversations with students to try and make me remember them because I am God awful with names. That way I might recognize them when grading and if they really attended office hours I'm more willing to help their grade compared to a student who shows up the day before the final with a failing grade pleading with me.
Probably not necessary unless there's more than two people. But I'd imagine the friend is asking for future reference, that way they don't refer to OP incorrectly.
Ryugi ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:15:49 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I feel that if you have the chance to ask someone what they prefer, it is good to know. For example if they were born a man but are a transwoman you wouldn't want to say, "thanks for holding the door, sir" (playfully). You'd want to say "miss" or "ma'am" in that case.
I've just never understood why they ask for pronouns plural... Like if they're a she they're obviously also a her and hers, why specify all three? It would be much less awkward to ask for one.
If there are three people or more in the conversation then pronouns would be used. Referring about one person to the other as he/she. Having said that, I think the whole thing is ridiculous. I'm not going to ask anyone which pronoun they would like me to use. I'll use he or she based on physical obviousness until corrected otherwise.
Edit To the downvoters: Which do you think is MORE offensive? Asking everyone "Do you prefer to be addressed as he or she?" Or not asking in the first place, and let those who are in the process of undergoing gender reassignment tell you "Actually I prefer she."
I'm sorry why are you ASSUMING you can refer to me as "you"? How do you know that doesn't trigger my PTSD from something that I don't have to explain to you?
/s
I almost didn't include a /s because I thought it was obviously ridiculous, but I read it over and I realized I definitely needed a /s.
There are so few transgender people in the world that it's very strange to ask someone what their preferred gender pronoun is without any lead up to it in conversation.
I agree that if someone's pronouns are not what others would expect then it should be on them to alert others, as the party with lower information costs. BUT to make a post on reddit about how you don't like people that attempt to be accomodating is transphobic.
No it doesn't. I honestly don't know how you could possibly make that leap and can only assume you've never witnessed real "-phobic" anything, racism, or sexism if you throw around the term for something so trivial.
To make the leap that finding it uncomfortable that someone would randomly ask a question like that with no lead up to it all the way to them being transphobic is a joke.
Sometimes attempts at inclusive language are awkward or corny. It's still good that the imaginary friend in this scenario was making an attempt. To condemn them for it is ignorant, and to make this post about an imaginary situation could only have anti-trans people intent.
Now you're just making shit up to fit your own agenda. If you actually cared about the acceptance of transgenders you wouldn't throw terms like transphobic around willy-nilly and removing them of any real meaning. People like you are not doing transgenders any favors.
Why do you think transsexuals transition in the first place? Can you even imagine what it's like to go through all of the bullshit they put up with? Obviously gender is something very important to them or they wouldn't go through the process at all. It's not about them being thin skinned in this case, it's about us just being decent people to each other.
Referring to others with the wrong gendered pronoun can re-surface traumatic emotions and create a sense of dysphoria as they often lose their sense of self when referred to with the wrong pronoun. Using the correct pronouns isn't that difficult, transitioning is. I don't understand why people get so butt-hurt over this concept. Just check your privilege please.
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 01:03:28 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
...says the guy who literally replied to a top comment with an off-topic reply in the genuine hope that they would be able to virtue-signal harder than the rest of the thread.
But yeah, I take it too seriously. Okay. I'll just.....oh hey look constantly posting in /r/politics like it's your job. Got it. But don't take things too seriously, duderino.
At first I thought "Maybe she's just being careful not to offend anybody", but then I thought about it some more and it's kind of an odd thing to do. When interacting with somebody, I will absolutely address you by whatever pronouns you prefer - I have zero issue with this and want you to be happy. However, I'm not going to ask this question at the beginning of every interaction with a human being. That just seems unnecessarily complicated and could end up making someone even more uncomfortable, like OP here.
It's more the responsibility of the person with the preferred pronouns to let other people know. People can't magically know other peoples pronouns if they aren't told by that person first.
As an Icelander, I can't say I relate with this... We have a lot of trans people here, but nobody is going to throw a hissy fit for being called the wrong pronoun... it's more like "Oh hey actually I'm a girl now" "-Oh ok bro... I mean babe" and that's the end of it.
Is it really becoming insulting to not ask for gender pronouns now? The way I see it, it's probably more insulting TO ASK, because this implies you're not sure about the other person's gender (the consensus here is pretty much that you shouldn't care).
I think a good many people in the US feel that way as well. But anecdotes about placing the responsibility for how you identify yourself on other people - and losing your shit when they don't meet your expectations - makes a lot of people frustrated with the whole subject. That said, my experience of people losing said shit has only been from news stories and Reddit, not in real life, so for all I know this is in reality a non-issue for the vast majority.
I've only met two people like that. I was at a small art gallery and said that I didn't understand the whole gender pronoun thing and they got really mad at me for it.
I haven't ever run into anyone that asks pronouns in real life, and I'm trans. Just refer to people as what they appear to be to you, and if they correct you and say "oh I actually prefer he, I'm transitioning to a guy" or whatever, you just say "oh my b" and then use he from then on. Nothing for either party to get upset over, spilled milk is more upsetting...
We are a lot more chill about it. There is like a single person in he country that wants to be called "hรกn". I know a single trans person and he just introduced himself with his name and told me that he was trans. I've always thought of him as a guy but I can imagine that that is easier if you didn't know them before the transition.
There are efforts to add gender neutral pronouns to the english language, because some people prefer not to be defined by male or female. This is what it's more about than transgender.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:08:57 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
This isn't really something that comes up for 99.9% of Americans either but I suppose there are some Timblrinas out there in real life somewhere
Well, the idea is that you ask everyone when you're either meeting them for the first time or haven't seen them in a while so they might have changed their mind. If we all just take telling our pronouns as a normal part of introducing ourselves then trans people won't have to feel hesitant or uncomfortable about telling someone what they prefer to be called.
[deleted] ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 20:10:46 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
That's idiotic though. You're suggesting that the 99% of people who aren't trans start announcing their gender pronouns to eachother in the off chance that someday there will be a trans person I the vicinity?
I personally don't feel comfortable assuming I know what someone wants to be called by just from looking at them. You don't have to do anything. No one is making anyone do this. I'm just saying that in my opinion it's a very small effort that can make a big difference for people. It's up to you whether or not you want to take that to heart. I just don't think it's fair for OP to shit on people for doing something to try to make others feel comfortable and safe around them.
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 23:59:18 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I'm still unclear. Are you running into trans people (who don't quite pass) all the time or do you ask normal people what pronoun they prefer?
I have no way of knowing whether someone I meet is trans or not so in general I will introduce myself with my own pronouns and ask for theirs. Of course most of the time if I'm meeting someone through mutual friends I'll already know what they prefer because of hearing someone refer to them using those pronouns so it's not necessary.
I wouldn't come up to someone, decide what I think their name is, and then call them by that name. I introduce myself and ask what their name is. Same goes for pronouns. It literally takes 2 seconds.
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 00:43:54 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Just trying to wrap my head around this. So you meet a new person and say, "Hi, my name is ClearlyClaire and I prefer female pronouns"? Do you get funny looks? I would imagine that unless you're ambiguously gendered yourself you'd get lots of funny looks for needing to point that out.
Right, but the counterargument is that why should a person feel obligated to ask a trivial question about someone just to ease any possible discomfort? It wasn't my idea to separate pronouns based on gender, Finns basically just say "it" about people (and latin languages automatically use the male to resolve ambiguity or plurals). Nobody here gives a shit what gender you identify as, and nobody thinks twice to call someone the wrong pronoun, because it's just a pronoun.
I could get a bunch of flak from this, so let me just add -- I was called all kinds of wrong pronouns in my childhood. Having long hair I was mistaken for a girl quite often. Didn't phase me at least.
No one is saying that anyone is obligated to do that. I personally think that it's a nice and considerate thing to do, but I meet people all the time who don't ask what my pronouns are and I've never like called them out on it or something. I just do it because I know that it can mean a lot to certain people and it doesn't take a lot of effort on my part. Also I'm aware that being called the wrong pronoun all the time can suck and I don't want to inadvertently do that to someone.
OP walked away from his old friend because they asked him what his pronouns were -- basically shitting all over them for the crime of trying to be considerate of his feelings. The main sentiment in this thread seems to be concern over being "forced" to give this courtesy to others. No one is making anyone do that. If seeing someone go the extra mile to be considerate of people's feelings makes you feel like you should do the same, maybe that's not such a bad thing.
pwaz ยท 165 points ยท Posted at 15:35:22 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Their gender pronouns are what they identify with so for example I am a woman and my preferred pronouns are she, her, hers, etc. Someone who is somewhere in between traditional genders would be their, they, them.
I mean I understand for people who are transitioning to the other sex because everyone has the ugly teen phase and sometimes it's hard to know. If it's mtf they'll want female pronouns and vice versa.
But then they're are those who don't have a gender or whatever and you get into the dragonkin gender fluid asexual. People just need to make things complicated.
*I used to spend a lot of time on Tumblr and so now I'm well versed. HA.
Marokiii ยท 309 points ยท Posted at 16:00:58 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
one of my former friends came out as a 'greyromantic pansexual' and refused to let anyone use either male or female gender pronouns for them. apparently it means they have infrequent romantic feelings and dont could identify as either gender when they feel like it to make it extra confusing for everyone around them.
it truly makes being friends with people who act like this impossible unless you believe the same things extremely strongly. it ruled every conversation with them and caused serious confrontations with anyone who didnt completely agree with their political and social views on the tissue.
KidCasey ยท 281 points ยท Posted at 16:26:40 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I mean, people can identify and do whatever they want. I don't care, that's your right. BUT I think it's selfish to expect everyone to take the time to learn your shit. Like, when I get a new job I don't expect everyone to learn everything about the place or industry I'm in so we can have a conversation about it.
I don't think that's quite right. I think the "problem" that I have with most people like this is that the amount of categories are too big and there's no consensus about what's correct.
Like if there was just "they/them" for people you're on the fence about, I get that. Like, I know enough to respect your decision without having to buy a book or scour the internet for a tome on how to identify whatever gender you choose.
Then even they/them is plural and therefore gramatically incorrect. Honestly I just wish English had a respectful gender neutral pronoun premade into it. Like, you can't call someone an 'it' without being offensive.
There are nouns, such as fish, that can be singular or plural.
I don't really think there's a good, clean solution to this. The proposed ones are
"they, them" - plural sounding
"zhe,zir" - sounds like star-trek speak
* - own pronouns - gotta memorize
I mean, the easiest is we just use he or she. People pick whichever they think fits them best, and go with that. We just have so much associated with them now that people don't want to use them
I feel like there are no starving third world people who are worried about which pronoun is used for when they are given food and water. Sometimes people need to get a reality check on what's really important.
If you are changing gender, super. If not, stop making it up and let everyone get on with it all.
I'm trans, at the start of all the physical transitioning stuff; and I get misgendered ALL. THE. TIME. but I've never flipped out over it, or made it a huge deal. It fucking happens. These super aggressive people claiming to be speaking for me and my rights can fuck right off. They're crazy and embarrass me more than they could ever help me.
[deleted] ยท 24 points ยท Posted at 19:38:22 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
dude all kinds of people get "misgendered" all the time.
I'm a guy and I've been mistaken for a girl several times from the side and from behind. Why should I even give a shit.
Only weak frail pussies would get butthurt over something so petty and frivilous.
I mean, I'm a LGBTQ ally myself, but furreal, fuck these piece of shit tumblr sjw dildos. They give anything they get involved with a bad name and a bad rep.
They're exactly like the bible-thumping stupid conservative christians they love to hate, they're just the opposite side of the same coin.
(I meant my response in a kinda "I'm agreeing with you" kind of context, not sure if that was clear or not)
I'm trans, and there are two types of misgendering. One is accidental, and it doesn't bother me that much and then there is intentional misgendering, and that shit is inexcusable.
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 00:00:50 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It's best to assume goodwill from people- for two reasons;
most people aren't trying to attack you.
And if they are being intentionally dickish, being unreactive and cool about is the best way to behave anyway.
Remember: if you're in the right then you can be polite because you're correct.
If you're in the wrong then you should definitely be chill and polite.
Haha man it's cool, I see exactly where you're coming from, and I agree with you 100%!
The SJWs do more harm than good for those they claim to stand for. Examples: Us big ol' trannies (most of us are normal, binary gendered peoplr and would prefer if they went away), Muslims (I have yet to hear an ex muslim defend the religion, and many of the women currently trapped in countries where the Islamic rules are law want nothing more than to be from its yet SJWs protect a religion that teaches hate), Body positivity (they encourage obesity & health problems that lead to death in many cases), and that's just a few.
They're absolute knobheads, and you're completely right, they're just the other side of the coin.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:29:18 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Is your username a homage to Rafiki from The Lion King
While I agree with the point you're making, it's also kind of dangerous to pull the whole "well, think of the starving children in Africa..." card because we shouldn't be motivated to change our actions just because other people have it harder than ourselves. We should change our actions because its the moral thing to do.
I'm talking more towards the level of anger that people can raise to in an instant. Especially when it comes to the identities that make no sense that people are making up (e.g. owl). Realise that not everyone is going to understand this right away, and that it's not the end of the world if they get it wrong first time.
[deleted] ยท -10 points ยท Posted at 17:39:27 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Its not about changing actions or proving our own emotions invalid because someone has it worse somewhere else. It's about perspective, sure wrong pronouns could make someone upset and they have every right to feel the way they do but the "starving people" thing is more to get perspective and say "hey I know this bothers me but other people have much worse problems that I should maybe be a little happier about my own situation and realize that someone saying the wrong pronoun isn't too big of a deal"
It's certainly useful to maintain that kind of perspective on a personal level, but it seems counterproductive to use it in a debate about something. The "starving kids in Africa" argument is such a broad statement that can be applied to literally any issue in any first world country, which effectively makes it useless.
It always goes like this:
[brings up something they see as a problem]
"Yes, but people elsewhere have it worse!"
"...I'm aware of that. Are you changing the subject or being dismissive?"
I'd take it in a different way. Not to make the argument "People have it worse so you don't have a problem", but "People outside of our extreme level of comforts never have this issue, therefore it's probably not real and just made up so that you can feel like you have a problem."
If gender identity is a real issue and needing personal pronouns are a real issue, then you'd also see the people starving in Africa still having these same issues (probably not nearly as much as their other issues, but it would still be something they bring up).
Marokiii ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 20:14:17 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
i always thought that argument wasnt a way to disregard what ever problem you are having by saying others have it worse, but a way to judge the severity of my problem and the response that i am giving it.
sure my problem should be addressed, but does it really need this high of a level of attention to solve it?
[deleted] ยท -7 points ยท Posted at 18:00:47 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
No no you missed what I was saying, it's not about saying that someone has it worse so suck it up. It's just trying to put perspective that may or may not make you feel better about your own situation.
Just because there are more important issues elsewhere doesn't discredit the validity of a problem.
You might be in American Prison for a crime you didn't commit, but at least you're not a woman under ISIS. Like, you see the problem with saying that? I'm sure there are a lot of valid problems people with genders that aren't man or woman face...like outside of Tumblr, irl.
Sure, I'm all for LGBT rights and all for people who are trans getting their true gender identified, but if your issue is people don't refer to you as the pronoun "owl" then I don't think that is comparable to a person in prison.
There are some people who look like guys who wanna be called she
vice versae.
There are some people who don't identify as either.
And there are some people who want to be owls. The latter is a small minority within a small minority. i don't really know about that, but lets not pretend that minority represents the majority when we're talking about this.
I will call you based on the obvious signs. If you have a beard and a bulge in your pants and you talk with a deep voice, you're a he. If you have breasts, soft features and a feminine voice, you're a her.
I really don't care how you identify because to me that's not what you are biologically (or medically altered), and that's the only thing that would affect my mind.
That might be the only case where I'll let them tell me what they prefer to be called. But I'm not going to ask them what they prefer to be called if they clearly look like either a man or a woman. I'm not talking about the anomalies here.
Jajoo ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 16:39:12 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
So if a bug burly dude asked you to use feminine pronouns for them you wouldn't do it?
Marokiii ยท 51 points ยท Posted at 16:45:24 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
sure, but i am not going to go up to the big burly dude when i meet him for the first time and ask him if he wants to be called a her.
Probably not. Both because in this scenario hes making no effort to transition(not shaving, not dressing differently) and because I just don't care. You'll get the name when I'm talking to you, a sir or mam, or if you're between the two, just an "excuse me". You get the basic courtesy I give everyone else, I won't go out of my way to mess with you and I'll do the basic amount to help you. But don't mistake that for me giving two shits about how you identify or who you want to fuck.
Jajoo ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 18:25:57 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
Why doesn't basic courtesy extend to pronouns? Basic courtesy extends to calling one by their preferred name. If a person told you their name was Jim you wouldn't call them David because "you just don't care".
If your name was chad and you wanted to go by Tom, I would outright refuse to learn your preferred name. If it's not on your government issued ID I will not bend over backward for your selfishness.
MrWinks ยท 33 points ยท Posted at 17:43:45 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I'm going to be honest and actually speak rationally without scorn. I have a point, I promise. I'm glad trans people are being accepted generally and things are progressing for them. I think the extreme positions remind me of some I see in something I associate with that had somewhat of a worse stigma, before; veganism. The jokes it got and the people that represented it were pretty awful and incapable of thinking rationally and calmly. Lots of angry people. I think a lot of that has gone away enough that people are cool and vegans usually keep to themselves or don't make needless noise. My point is that I hope that for trans people it becomes the same and that these really ridiculous representations that make easy strawmen arguments for pronouns etc can be a thing of the past, mostly, and it could go on to be no big deal.
It doesn't really. Extremism is forming a militia and occupying a government building. Being upset about a pronoun is, at worst, a false sense of entitlement. Blowing up an oil platform is extremism, being a vocal vegan is just annoying. If you for a second think that vocal vegans somehow in any way invalidate the issues that veganism points at you're just seeking any reason to act like a prick.
You being inconvenienced by someone's gender-whatever is nothing compared to the very real discrimination that a person like that might face. Which is why it is a silly subject for people on the internet to get upset about.
Guess what? Custom pronouns are stupid and they will never be adapted. Trans people are being negatively affected by the special little snowflakes who are making up pronouns. We live in a serious world and you can't FORCE other people to cater to your will, EVEN if you are being discriminated against.
I'm not really sure you understand my post. I don't even disagree with what you're saying. What I said was that this is no reason for you to be upset. Go and help transgendered people get their rights, stop being upset about people on the internet.
And of course emancipation always involves a degree of force. If you're taking rights for yourself you're going to run into opposition.
[deleted] ยท 12 points ยท Posted at 17:40:25 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Is it really that hard thought to use whatever pronouns they prefer? Like its okay to mess up here and there but it really isn't super difficult to refer to someone as they once you do it a couple times.
Except that it's been used as a genderless singular English pronoun since the time of Shakespeare, so...
[deleted] ยท -8 points ยท Posted at 18:46:57 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
The Chicago style manual, Purdue OWL and APA all recommend to not use "they" as a singular pronoun. It's especially difficult because the him/herself equivalent is "themself," which people are unfamiliar with. People who use "they" are gramatically incorrect, at least for now.
who cares what the Chicago Style Manual says when you're just having casual conversation?
If you think people policing pronouns are annoying, imagine if people started holding you to APA standards in conversation.
[deleted] ยท -9 points ยท Posted at 19:20:01 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I don't correct people who use "they" as a singular pronoun, I just said it was grammatically incorrect. People (myself included) make grammar mistakes in casual conversation all the time, but that doesn't invalidate grammar itself.
Given that those style guides disagree on plenty of grammatical minutiae, I don't think it's appropriate to reference them as a final authority on whether singular neuter pronoun usage is "incorrect."
[deleted] ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 18:57:26 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
In that case, what qualifies something as grammatically incorrect?
"I can will talked like these and mine meaning still was being understanded. These were the miracle of language. "
Usage evolves, forms vary, idiosyncrasies develop, and our language culture is all the richer for it. Honestly, I would say that punctuation and spelling (mostly of homophones) are far more vital components of grammar than prescriptivism over "have/got," "he/she/they," or things like "ain't." Everything else is flexible.
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 19:18:04 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Because in some situations -- most usually formal writing with a clear and direct purpose, e.g. scholarly essays or newspaper articles -- having a style guide can help make your writing as regimented and unambiguous as possible. For copyeditors and publishing staff, especially, having a unified set of rules can help them make sure that all the pieces they publish fit a unified style -- literally why they're called "style guides, incidentally -- for brand identity, consistency and professionalism. For example, The New Yorker uses a diaeresis (two little dots above a letter) with consecutive voiced vowels. They spell cooperate as coรถperate, for example. It's a bizarre editing choice, but it's grammatically and stylistically correct under their own editorial guidelines.
For some languages -- Japanese, for instance -- a unified, centrally mandated style helps guide their writing system and all the related aspects: everything from education standards to newspaper readability to public transport signage to legal documents. Since English lacks a central authority, however, we have various style guides and dictionaries, each with their own appendices and errata, to deal with, none of which fully account for the flexibility and variability of English.
TL;DR for all of this -- basically, style guides exist for the benefit of people who want to try and implement a certain style across certain limited situations, but the style guides aren't and can't fully account for the breadth and variability of English.
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 19:37:42 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
So, would you use a singular they in formal writing? I get using one in conversation, it's essays and such that trip me up. Also, thanks for the detailed responses.
I would say a singular they in formal writing would be perfectly acceptable if you're writing about a person who has indicated that "They" is their preferred gender. For writing about a situation where the identity of the person in question is unknown, I feel like most journalistic style guides would encourage you to use "a/the person" rather than a pronoun, but once that has been predicated, "they" would work just fine. I can easily make up an example for you now.
"Security footage obtained by the Tribune has confirmed that a suspect climbed over the zoo fence at close to 2 a.m. last night. It's not currently clear if they were under the influence of any intoxicants or controlled substances, but police and zoo officials are working closely together to try and ascertain the suspect's identity, and whether they had any malicious motives."
Yeah, with the context that proves you wrong missing. I know this because someone else in this thread explained it to you and you thanked them. If you like, I can link to that, but I don't think your memory of what happened less than an hour ago is that bad.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:03:09 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
it is acceptable as a singular pronoun when you don't know the gender of the person. Such as "I saw the driver side-swipe a parked car, and then they just drove away!"
Just thinking of a somewhat common scenario when you might not know the gender, but there are plenty of other applicable scenarios.
nf5 ยท -2 points ยท Posted at 17:07:31 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
Yes it is
co99950 ยท -3 points ยท Posted at 18:42:46 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Iirc some people identify as multiple people. Headmates and what not.
I had this argument a while ago. There are definitely instances where it's implied that it's plural, but all you're going to get for answers is people giving examples where it makes sense and not addressing the ones where it doesn't. The good news is these retards don't seem to exist outside the internet.
I'm really getting tired of this argument. It's just an emotional appeal, "You do love your kids right? What kind of a fucking asshole doesn't love their kids regardless? Well, now your kid is trans, you better fucking love him still, because otherwise you're a shit. So you have to love his trans self."
My sister is studying some pointless shit for her masters. I still love her. Her studies are still fucking stupid. Luckily I can differentiate between her decisions and my feelings for her as a person.
I was asking a literal question. No one is asking about what you think is smart or normal. This conversation about pronouns is about common courtesy and being a decent human being.
[deleted] ยท -15 points ยท Posted at 17:39:16 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I'd say good for you, now don't let your transgenderism be the sole way in which you define your life, which I think is the problem with all of this stuff.
now don't let your transgenderism be the sole way in which you define your life
This is the exact sort of attitude that people mean when they say "check your privilege." You have the luxury of not having to worry about your sexuality or gender expression because you're (very likely) a heterosexual person whose gender expression matches the genitalia you were born with.
For people who feel conflicted, trapped or uncomfortable with their bodies and try to alter their gender expression to better match their internal feelings, there's a much greater effort needed to deal with all the pressures and prejudices of society. By extension, their sexuality and gender identity becomes comparatively more central to their lives.
In a progressive and accepting society, a person's gender identity wouldn't make any sort of difference to their perceived social value, and it wouldn't be such a point of interest, but in a society where we have people who are -- for all practical purposes -- women being refused access to women's restrooms, or vice versa, then it shows that we as a society haven't moved to a place where people with nontraditional gender expressions are able to do anything but fight desperately for societal acceptance and have the luxury of not "making a big deal" about who they are as people.
If you really don't give a shit then why speak at all.
Marokiii ยท -11 points ยท Posted at 16:46:38 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
'they' also means more than one person. so if im talking about what a single person has done, they is not a proper use of the english language to do it with.
edit: its the definition in the dictionary people, get over yourselves. no where in there does it talk about single use for people when gender isnt known. its talking about groups of 2 or more people, or in abstract terms when the number of people isnt defined, or talking in the 3rd person.
Tonamel ยท 16 points ยท Posted at 17:25:34 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
"I was talking to a redditor who would rather be pedantic about language than respect someone's gender identity. I'm not sure why THEY thought like that."
Also language is fluid and again using "they" pronouns is really fucking easy.
I linked to the Oxford dictionary which states that they/them pronouns have been used to describe someone of "unspecified gender" since the 16th century.
Bess95 ยท 9 points ยท Posted at 16:57:26 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
That doesn't mean they aren't one of two genders, from an outside perspective. Let's say your friend was born male. Infrequent romantic feelings. So, what, they rarely have feelings for others, but when they do, it doesn't matter if they are male or female? That sounds bisexual. Nothing wrong with that.
Identify as either gender when they feel like it. That doesn't mean anything. They have their gender, and one day they are male and other days they are female. Or maybe they are just males who want to act like females. As in, dress like one, talk like one, whatever. That's still a male acting like a female. You can't just say you're a woman and that makes you a woman. That is incredibly offensive to people who actually suffer from gender dysphoria, a medically proven to exist condition where a person has a typically female brain inside a man's body. People who actually undergo serious medical procedures to feel comfortable in their skin, then you get some obnoxious 'special snowflake' moron, who has probably never done a days work in their life, have no idea how the world works and would absolutely try to get offended by everything. Tough break, life isn't fair and you aren't unique. There's 7 billion people in this world and I'm not going to give special treatment to people who don't deserve it.
this was my ex-girlfriend. She would always bring up her political and social views in conversations. Always using others as springboards to shove SJW ideals down people's throats.
Then she decided that she wanted to be called by "they, them" Wasn't a problem for me, but I didn't want to be with someone like that. So, I left her.. I mean THEM.
Numbuh7 ยท 56 points ยท Posted at 15:58:48 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Does anyone trans on tumblr actually accept people who identify as [whatever]kin? I've literally never seen anyone on side of it in the years I've used it, and the people who do use them are normally just as RPs.
It was basically we were introducing ourselves and when we got to her she said that she went by Artemis and her pronouns were owl/owl's/owlself. A lot of people just kinda glared or looked incredulously at her but, I being the confrontational bitch that I am, asked her if she genuinely wanted us to refer to her that way with a very skeptical look on my face. Afterwards, the group leader/club president person took me aside and informed me that my prejudice was not needed in this group and it might be best if I not return.
Sea-Salt ยท 50 points ยท Posted at 17:34:53 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Were these people not aware that owls also are split between males and females? You know, just like most advanced lifeforms on this planet.
keyree ยท 38 points ยท Posted at 18:26:45 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
That's what I don't get. You can't just take a noun and make it into a pronoun.
[deleted] ยท 107 points ยท Posted at 16:33:15 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
If someone ever said this to me I would immediately think I was being trolled. I'm all for respecting people and their lives, but there's a certain point where I'm no longer sure I'm respecting human intelligence by giving into this weird stuff.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:02:23 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Oh, that's Julia the shitlord over there. Shit's been coming here for about a year. Apparently, shit has a hard time being accepted even though shit's super nice.
Five bucks the club president is a furry running the place like a personal fiefdom. I know how the politics can be in those kind of groups.
I was in a club where we had to pretty much run off the administrators. They bailed with like $1000 of club money. We didn't pursue because they caused so much drama $1000 was a small price to pay to get them to leave us alone.
Coal121 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 19:10:48 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I'm a furry with a couple of trans friends and asking people to call you "owlself" is pretty dumb. Being kicked out is even dumber. Not to mention naming yourself after a god is pretty presumptuous.
LMFAO. How inclusive of them. Making people leave.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 04:11:06 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I can understand them asking you to leave. I know that otherkin are basically an excuse to shit on trans* people but we need to treat them with respect.
A lot of otherkin use it as a coping mechanism for mental illness, if that makes them feel more comfortable then in certain situations, like in certain safe spaces(inb4 reddit shits on safe spaces becuz 2reel2fast world).
I think the otherkin thing is a problem to be completely honest, but it has to be treated with kindness or we risk further alienating people that are merely misguided.
The issue is that their inability to cope with their problems reflects negatively on me. I have met so so many people who hate trans people because they met one delusional person who demanded that they use owl pronouns. I refuse to indulge it at the expense of my own credibility no matter how alienated they feel.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 07:08:27 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I totally understand, i know how you feel i felt the same way up until recently.
well, yeah, but most otherkin is using it as a coping mechanism for their mental illnesses. And the rest of the cases are p much either a religious thing (eg past lives), or as simple as "I feel a special affinity to this thing". Nothing worth going against.
Nonbinary is completely unrelated to otherkin. And pansexual and greyromantic are also completely unrelated to either of those things.
Nonbinary are people who don't feel like either male or female is accurate for them. I assume you'll need more info on this but I have to think how to say it.
Pansexual is basically just a term for bisexual that includes nonbinary people.
asexual/aromantic, and derivatives such as greyromantic, are modifiers on how much of that type of attraction you feel- so for instance a greyromantic pansexual would, I guess be sexually attracted to people of all genders, but only ever feel any romantic attraction to people they've known for a long time. there's a lot of contention on whether asexual and aromantic should be included in lgbt+, and it's probably not necessary for people to 'come out' as. And it's not really necessary for you to know details of this.
Numbuh7 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:43:32 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Yeah I totally get otherkin as like a coping mechanism, just didn't know how to phrase it. And I'm trans and pan myself, and a bunch of my friends are non-binary and/or ace, but I'm not sure how that's related?
ah alright. Hopefully my post will help inform other people then. the anti-tumblrs conflate otherkin with NB and pan and and ace and even binary trans. and this bleeds to the neutrals, but hopefully if we just tell them what those things actually mean they won't be shitty about it.
[deleted] ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 16:28:48 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
From my personal experience, no, but I'm sure there's a community on there that does. It's honestly all about who you follow and talk to, just like Reddit.
I'm probably going to be downvoted, but as somebody who has been in the therian community for at least 15 years now, tumblr doesn't know what they are talking about. Otherkin is not a gender and is not a coping mechanism. The kids that participate in this aren't loved by the bigger community for the misinformation they have spread. I'm not gonna call you by cat pronouns, nope and never.
RyanB_ ยท -5 points ยท Posted at 16:16:21 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Not really
Source: have a tumblr-sexual friend who has many other tumblr-trans friends, none of whom take whatever-kin seriously.
From what I've seen typically they don't. The sane people on Tumblr who support LGBTQ stuff usually only tolerate he/she/them pronouns. You can identify as a man, woman, or inbetween/none, but I'm not pretending you're a fucking turtle okay?
moeburn ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 18:34:09 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Hey I've got no problem using different gender pronouns if it truly makes someone feel more comfortable - no skin off my back.
The problem comes when people angrily want to punish someone for using the wrong pronouns, and mislabel their anger as "discomfort".
sagev3 ยท 133 points ยท Posted at 16:52:57 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Look, transgender people aren't happy about it either. The whole dragonkin, otherkin stuff trivializes what shitty issues trans people actually go through. So don't leave us pls, you're our only hope.
Yeah, it's a pretty crap situation for trans folks. It's not dissimilar to the gay marriage issue, when polygamists pipe themselves up and muddy the waters. The LGBT rights movement has enough problems as it is without adding to it, especially (in the case of beastkin and such) teenage fad crap.
sagev3 ยท 29 points ยท Posted at 17:31:36 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It seems a bit of an issue lately. People just want to be cool in some fashion so they say they're x when they absolutely aren't and haven't felt what actual gender dysphoria is in the slightest.
It's a shame, because all it does is cause a negative perception for those who actually live with this. Because, believe it or not, we generally just want to be left alone or treated like everyone else, not get special treatment.
I guess it's a good sign that one doesn't often hear of otherkin outside of the internet while the core LGBT community is making amazing strides in the past few years.
sagev3 ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 17:36:34 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It really depends on where you go, but you're right. Things have been a lot better in recent years, even in the more backwards states.
As a trans woman living in central Texas, I can attest to that. While there are still plenty of transphobic people in the South, the younger generations are generally very accepting, especially in the urban areas.
sagev3 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 18:45:04 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I've noticed the same in Indiana (outside of Indianapolis). Indiana being a state notorious for some of the laws passed or proposed, and having one of the worst governors in history in Mike Pence.
Generally even the older generations of people don't mind too much. They just go about their business and will be respectful of you in most situations. The reason we feel like there's so much adversity is due to the fact that adversity stands out more in our minds/memories than kindness. Which you could say is a problem in itself.
It really annoys me that people suddenly have all these strong opinions on the matter, when a few years ago no one really seemed to care. Trans people have been using public bathrooms for a very long time without incident. Sure, I would like legal protections against discrimination, but that doesn't mean I have to have strong opinions on Caitlyn Jenner or any other trans figure.
co99950 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 18:46:01 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Didn't they add gender queen onto LGBT? Seems kinda sexist to me.
sagev3 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 19:00:41 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
This is why I just call it SOGI (pronounced so gee, rather than soggy). Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity. I can't be arsed to add more fucking letters to an already annoying acronym for a group of people. LGBTQNILABCDEF
Hexofin ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 07:27:14 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
To be fair, a lot of those "Tumblr types" identify as that as almost a stepping stone to coming out as trans.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 07:12:23 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
how can it be a crap situation for trans folks? making a choice about what you identify as should be respected no matter what choice you make. there should be no stigma for someone that identifies as a woman or as a dragon wolf or whatever.
Because trans people are struggling to gain identity in a world that already stigmatizes them as it is, adding people who indentify as unicorns just gives opponents to trans acceptance something to latch onto.
I also, personally, do not believe most (if any) identify with dragons and unicorns and so on. It's ludicrous.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 04:37:18 on October 11, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
could the same thing be said about trans people? where is the line drawn on identity politics between ludicrous and ______phobic? the act of chosing a new "identity" deserves the same level of scrutiny as what you actually choose to identify as. i'm not trying to be a troll or a bigot i'm just honestly perplexed at where the buck stops because it seems like a slippery slope.
There's a difference between choosing to identify as something and actually identifying with it. There are plenty of psychological studies on people feeling that they are of the opposite gender. There are none on people feeling that they are dragons because dragons do not exist.
For me, and I hope for the majority of the world, the gender 'choice' is simply the freedom to live your life as the sex you identify with, not the one you choose because you prefer the shoes.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:03:56 on October 11, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
i understand your position and thank you for an honest reply. i usually ask questions and get nothing but insults back. usually on reddit having a different opinion ends up being called a (insert whatever)-phobic bigot buzzword other buzzword and then tons of other comments virtue signaling against the option of having a differing opinion. thanks again for civil discussion. reddit could learn a thing or two from you. cheers.
Dysfu ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 20:22:01 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It's ironic because at a time the gay and lesbian community actually were transphobic and believed the same thing that Trans* people were trivializing their own movement.
I totally agree with you that dragon/otherkin are ridiculous, especially when it comes to their pronouns but it's interesting how "fringe" groups become normalized in society and then immediately shift to say "oh we're nothing like those people. They're weird"
It kind of shows that society is legitimizing their argument. I wonder if in 20 years we will be accepting the otherkin nonsense as just another facet to our culture.
sagev3 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 22:12:31 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Well that would be a nice thought, except for the fact that otherkin has no scientific backing unlike being transgender, bisexual, or homosexual. I get your point completely, but otherkin just has nothing to stand on other than the fact that someone wanted to be cool one day and said they were a fox.
As someone who's genderfluid, I find it infuriating. If there was a widely used gender-neutral pronoun, I'd want people to use it, but the fact is that there isn't. I appear like a woman, so people use female pronouns. It's not like they're trying to insult me. But people using these ridiculous classifications just makes it impossible to be taken seriously. It's like the severe overuse of the word "trigger".
I'm the same way. I'd probably identify as genderfluid when it came down to it, but I appear more female than anything. I'm not upset if people call me female pronouns, but if people want to call me they/them instead it'd be awesome.
Tonamel ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 06:09:25 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
If there was a widely used gender-neutral pronoun, I'd want people to use it, but the fact is that there isn't.
"They" has been used for exactly this purpose for hundreds of years. It is English's singular, gender-ambiguous pronoun. Shakespeare used it. Jane Austen used it. Everybody uses it.
Only in referring to people where the gender is unknown. (I got a letter from the delivery man. They left it on the porch). It is very rarely used with specific people where the gender is known or assumed.
Tonamel ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 14:18:21 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding something, but doesn't that make it even more appropriate to use for someone who's gender fluid (gender identity varies over time)?
My point isn't that it is or isn't appropriate. My point is the common usage. They/them/etc is almost never used to refer to specific people. If I went by these pronouns, I would be constantly correcting people because this is not a common way to use them. They wouldn't be doing out of malice.
Again, because I present the way I do, I don't really mind female pronouns. So it's not really worth the effort to insist otherwise.
Tonamel ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 16:04:14 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Ah, I see what you're saying now. That's fair.
sagev3 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 18:55:15 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Well our issues are with SJWs without trying to sound like some edgy kid. They do cause issues where there don't need to be for any situation, for women, for transgender people, for gay/bi people, for liberals even. Trigger is a word that has a good meaning behind it, but like you said, due to its severe overuse it has a very negative connotation to it now that it can't be used without being vilified or ridiculed. The only thing we can do is try to stay calm and educate anyone about our situation. And show them we hate the same things they do. When people can relate with you, it makes a world of difference.
A part if me feels like these dragonkins are the equivalent to angsty pre-teens that are just looking for any attention they can get. There's the phrase "first world problems" we should start implementing "sjw" problems. But in my opinion it definitely trivializes the issues trans people are going through and they are no better than the people they admonish
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 04:15:26 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I agree, but i think we need to be nice to the otherkin folk.
You don't make someone that is sick better by saying they are insane and all that :/
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 07:12:20 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
it is a slippery slope. identity politics and all that.
Don't you think the non-binary do as well? Like I'm too special to have a gender. The whole I'm "trans" but I didn't transition to anything
sagev3 ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 17:41:50 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Umm, I honestly couldn't say I feel that way. I've worked with non-binary people in the past, and they seem to have similar issues that we do. I think I would prefer to withhold an opinion on the matter until there's enough scientific evidence to support one way or the other.
As it stands, there's really only a lot of evidence supporting those who experience gender dysphoria in such a way that they were born with a gender that doesn't correspond to their sex. Basically all of the scientific evidence to support this is shown in the brain (i.e. those who are MtF seem to have brain patterns similar if not identical to cis women, and vice versa for FtM people). Now I can't say for certain that there isn't some study that shows non-binary proof in brain patterns, etc. so either way I can't say for certain.
I will say this though, that all of the non binary people I have been close to in the past, later realized they were just FtM instead of agender/genderqueer/nonbinary. So take that how you will ยฏ_(ใ)_/ยฏ
I'd consider locking down LGBT to mean exactly that then. If you have no limits on what your group is, it will become anything but what it was meant to be.
LGBTQIA+ is nonsensical since what it involves is not defined. I, as a rational person, can not support a group that has undefined motives since it may now, or in the future, represent something I do not believe in. I am against marriage-polygamy, bestiality, pedophilia, custom genders, etc etc so I can not, and will not, ever support a group that is "open" to all sexuality since so many of these behaviors are highly damaging.
sagev3 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 22:24:50 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I personally don't have any issue with polygamy, or marriage-polygamy for that matter, but I agree with you on the rest. Custom genders is just a way for someone to feel like they matter, or are helping, or are cool with the new fad, or etc. They don't realize the damage they're causing.
Now going into the other things you've mentioned, bestiality and pedophilia, and whatever vile act to compare with those, there's absolutely no way anything like that would ever be supported due to these things being reprehensible and immoral.
Either way, I don't really bother with this stuff too much.
I am not comparing those abhorrent behaviors to normal ones. Just that when you have a fully open group, there is no way for others to know what it includes.
Why are you using 'asexual' as an example of the extremities of sexualities? I agree that X-Kin is fairly ridiculous, but I fail to see how a sexuality isn't valid.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 07:02:25 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I highly doubt you're encountering that many "dragonkin" people in your daily life...
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 17:34:33 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
correction, people just need attention.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 18:39:41 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
there's only two genders
OhCleo ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 17:12:10 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I truly never understood the need for 'ze' or 'zim' or however that one goes.
I might start asking people to use my name for pronouns. She/her = OhCleo/OhCleo.
OhCleo said OhCleo is going to walk OhCleo's dog after OhCleo finishes OhCleo's dinner. Muahahahaha!
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:03:44 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
If I recall correctly, the worlds their, they, and them are supposed to be used exclusively for plural cases. So, although you might say, "DMH838 left a comment, I don't like them," it is technically incorrect and should be, "I don't like him or her." Generally nobody says that because it adds unneeded length to sentences unless it is a formal speech or writing.
You also don't use "it" for these cases, I forget the technical reason for it. However, I wonder if someone whom identifies as not having a gender should be called "it" (not including people in transition or other cases).
Point is, pronouns are odd in this type of situation.
Yes actually. He had on a super fucking high quality dog costume. Not a furry suit or anything I'd ever seen before my best guess would be a custom made latex and realistic fur suit from a special effects artist.
He (It?) was just chilling laying on the couch at a friend's house and the dog's "owner" came over and yelled at him a bit to get off the furniture so he laid down on the floor.
Apparently he hadn't spoken in 6 months and was transitioning into being able to be a dog full time.
Fucking aye. I'd want to live as a dog to! Get to sleep half of the day! Get people to pick up my poop! And I wouldn't need to worry about how I'm guna get my next meal because it magically shows up in my dish 2 times a day. Sign me up.
htepO ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 16:49:06 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
great, so mutilate your body because you like to act girly. fantastic. what has our society grown into? Studies have shown that cultures depreciate and break down when there are rises in LGBTQ and primarily transgender movements. A gender is a gender, it is assigned to you by nature. SEXUALITY on the other hand, you are free to choose. Trying to pretend like you can change your gender is stupid.
nayamasu ยท -8 points ยท Posted at 15:52:26 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Transgender people will often ask your pronouns as a way to open up the conversation about theirs being something you might not expect.
As a trans woman, who still has beard shadow, it's really hard to be gendered correctly most the time in public. I'll use asking other people's pronouns as a way to offer mine as she/her which they may not have guessed.
This post is basically saying "if your friend is trying to start a conversation about Gender or trans people, run!"
It's transphobic in a subtle way. Which is the worst kind in my opinion.
Instead just offer your pronouns and then ask what theirs are. The three most popular are She/her, they/them, he/him. I try using they/them for anyone I haven't explicitly asked yet. More as a statement on trans visibility more than anything else.
That honestly sounds like an incredibly awkward way to start a conversation. When you meet someone when do you even use a pronoun? Wouldn't you just use their name and they'd use yours? It seems to only pertain if they then go off and refer to you with a third party.
So now you're passive aggressive and just about as off putting. Just introduce with your name for correction and find ways to organically assert you are female. I swear so many people are put off of trans people when meeting them irl because they have zero tact. Its not always obvious, your situation is comparatively very rare and you need to realize that if you want things to go smoother. Starting off with the pronoun thing is super weird and awkward.
JX3 ยท 26 points ยท Posted at 16:23:13 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It'd probably be more straigth forward just to be more frank about it. A lot of people will be very bewildered by a question like that. You are putting people on the spot so any haphazard reactions shouldn't be completely unexpected. It's a little different than your normal smalltalk.
It's not like everyone is going to be okay with it even if you were more transparent, but at least the fallout will be more manageable for all.
In general it's just better to be honest in conversations. You said the reason why you ask is to create an opportunity to talk about yourself. Just talk about yourself if you feel like you need to. It's not a mundane conversation for many to begin with — introducing more complexity just creates more opportunity for misunderstandings and conflict.
nayamasu ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 16:33:07 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Have you ever had to breach the subject of having a different pronoun? Why do you think you know the best way to have this conversation?
oditogre ยท 9 points ยท Posted at 16:47:43 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Yours isn't the best, it's just the one that is easiest for you and most uncomfortable for the other person. It's like the stereotypical 'nice guy' approach to getting a girlfriend; it's an excuse that lets you tell yourself it's all on the other person and definitely not in any way your fault if the convo doesn't go your way.
It's manipulative and underhanded.
What's wrong with being direct and honest about your intent in the conversation, so everybody can be on an even footing?
nayamasu ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 16:50:16 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It manipulative to assert my correct pronouns? And make room for trans identities?
Could you please online your whole point so that I can understand it better? I'd like to continue to talk about this but your point unclear.
oditogre ยท 14 points ยท Posted at 16:55:02 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You're not asserting your correct pronouns. That's the exact point. You're manipulating the other person into asking you about them.
But that's the other persons point. She's not just bringing it up. She's stearing it into a certain direction. If she wants to talk about it and let them know, she could just do it rather than ask a question that's not normally asked and will make just about anyone feel really awkward really fast.
oditogre ยท 10 points ยท Posted at 17:12:10 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Exactly. It's the difference in saying "I prefer to be called 'Dr. Smith'", versus steering the conversation towards education just so you have an excuse to mention you have a PhD.
If they genuinely want to have a conversation about that stuff, there are way, way less messy, more comfortable for everybody ways to nudge the conversation down that path than directly asking somebody out of the blue what pronouns they prefer. If they don't care and they're just trying to 'assert their correct pronouns', well, just assert them, directly, and let the conversation move along, instead of going down this weird, awkward detour.
I often start conversations by asking my friends their opinion on something and then stating my own. I guess I just don't really see it as that manipulative.
[deleted] ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 16:41:10 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
[deleted]
nayamasu ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 17:00:47 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Your username suggests a male pronoun. Glad I know it's mech.
[deleted] ยท 79 points ยท Posted at 15:59:10 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
[deleted]
nayamasu ยท -48 points ยท Posted at 16:09:23 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Are you trying to make a point about gender not mattering? That doesn't work in a society that uses gender all the time. Identifying someone as their self prescribed pronouns is what you do all the time. Changing it for a trans person based on how you feel is transphobic.
I'm not bring passive aggressive when doing this in conversation. I'm putting people through a conversation about gender. If they react like you or the person in this post I try to educate the best I can. Isn't that how conversation works?
fitzydog ยท 28 points ยท Posted at 16:41:30 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
accidentally refers to you by a male pronoun while talking to a third person
"Actually, I'd like if you used 'she' please."
"Oh, okay. My bad. So anyways..."
That's how normal people would do it.
nayamasu ยท -5 points ยท Posted at 16:58:38 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Sure but what if you're trans? I don't know what your pronouns are without asking.
fitzydog ยท 16 points ยท Posted at 17:08:38 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Same exact situation. Infer based on what you see, and if you're wrong, neither party should be offended.
The solution to all of this? Don't get so offended. People aren't actively trying to hurt others. We've got bigger shit to deal with in our lives than what every person we encounter wants to be known as.
nayamasu ยท -4 points ยท Posted at 17:10:27 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Said like someone who has never been misgendered.
It's not like I want to disclose to people. Most the time it's a misunderstanding and I have to explain things. Your solution works in a perfect world. Our world is more complicated than that.
fitzydog ยท 11 points ยท Posted at 17:15:47 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I said it like someone who has accidentally misgendered someone.
I quickly apologized, corrected myself and continued on.
Same thing but in reverse. By turning every conversation into a statement about gender identity and forcing people to participate you drive them away and reinforce the unhealthy stereotype of "transgender people won't shut up about being PC." Gentle corrections will be more effective.
I do appreciate you opening the dialogue here, where it's cogent.
nayamasu ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 17:12:37 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I'm not talking about a lecture here. I'm talking about a 4 second interaction. Everyone assumes there is a lecture after asking about pronouns. I just want to know so that I can call you bro or hon.
That's just the point, though. By forcing the conversation in such an awkward, un-prompted way you are creating the atmosphere of "Oh man, I just wanted to drink a beer and unwind and this person is about to start a tirade about pronouns." It isn't transphobia (at least for me), it's lecturephobia, so how you start the conversation matters.
"I prefer they/their." wouldn't phase me at all. "What pronouns do you use?" wouldn't make me walk away, but it would make me on edge and defensive.
I can appreciate where you're coming from though. If I was around more trans people I probably wouldn't find it as weird.
Then when they politely correct you, you politely apologize, and everyone moves on. The person literally just gave you an example of this. He gave you an answer and then you asked the question.
nayamasu ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 17:11:06 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Not if I don't know you, why would I disclose something so personal. I'm gay and don't immediately tell people I am and don't get up in arms when people assume I'm straight
Okay but what if that person doesn't give a shit about gender or being educated? Like what if it's a total nonfactor to them? Don't you think you come off as a little pretentious just assuming that people are going to give a damn?
nayamasu ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 16:41:49 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
So your argument is that people are shitty and I shouldn't help them understand?
I don't think it's shitty to not really care about gender. Like I'm happy for you that you're doing you and becoming happier with yourself. Truly, I am. I think it's great that you've got the opportunity and that you're in a good spot to pursue who you really are and make those changes, and I'm glad that it's even an option in our society.
That being said, if you were to start a conversation with "what are your preferred pronouns" or "my preferred pronouns are", chances are good that I'm going to lose interest real quick.
nayamasu ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 17:07:28 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
But why? It's a two sentence interaction.
"Hi I'm Nayamasu, could I ask your pronouns real quick?"
"mine are he/him. Yours?"
"she/her thanks for asking."
Sorry. three. I'm just not seeing why this is a huge deal. People are talking like I would be giving a lecture. I'm talking about a 4 second interaction.
Because it's not something normal people care about. I don't ask women if they prefer to be called Miss or Misses before striking up a conversation with them unless the conversation asked for that context. Similarly, I'm going to assume your gender based on physical appearances. If I'm wrong, you can correct me and the conversation can continue normally just like if I called you Miss when you're married.
It just seems unnecessary. Unless I accidentally misgender you, why does your preferred pronouns/gender even matter? All it does is make things awkward for someone like myself who doesn't often talk about personal things with strangers. For example, I'm bisexual but I've told all of like 4 people (in person) because who gives a shit? It's not really relevant until it becomes the topic.
Skutner ยท 16 points ยท Posted at 17:01:07 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
People are not shitty, you are. The fact is not many people care about gender, just like not many people care about Australian football. How many people do you think would be happy to hear a lecture on Australian football every time they talked to someone? It's just not very interesting or important to them. If your whole identity is just your gender then I am sorry, you are not an interesting person.
Even if they don't know or care at all about gender, they'll probably appreciate the heads up that this is important to the person they're talking to. At least, that's how I feel when someone let's me know how to refer to them. Though it's usually a two sentence conversation and we move on.
"Hi, yeah, I don't know if I've mentioned it before but my pronouns are she/her."
"Oh, thanks, yeah, mine our they/them. Can you believe that ref's call last night?"
"No, because it was RIDICULOUS."
If I'm not sure, I just start using their name a lot.
I get where you're coming from, I just think that sounds hella awkward and forced is all. Like if I'm talking to a group of people and I say 'he' referring to someone in the group, wouldn't it be just as easy to interject with 'she' and let me fix the mistake rather than go through the whole "my pronouns are x/x's/xer, what are yours?" routine?
I do get what you're saying though, and I respect where you're coming from with it.
Thanks! I get that. Honestly, I'm super awkward either way, hah. I like doing the intro because it doesn't put anyone on the spot to stick up for themselves by interrupting the conversation and hoping everyone is not transphobic (given the murder rates of transgender people, that can be a real concern). It can be a gamble with these conversations. By saying my pronouns, it's an easy way to let the person I'm talking with know I'm fine with whatever. (I generally don't find transphobic people having this routine haha!) I think it would be harder (more awkward) for me to interrupt to correct if it was in the middle of a different conversation, though I get what you're saying since it does turn it into it's own little thing. Thanks for the reply. :)
veeeSix ยท 17 points ยท Posted at 16:20:03 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
That sounds like how door-to-door salesmen operate.
nayamasu ยท -7 points ยท Posted at 16:36:34 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
he said you sound like a door to door salesman selling gender so you say "sounds like a white man", like that's an insult?
Wouldn't that mean you don't like the way you sound? Are you criticizing yourself?
nayamasu ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 17:23:55 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Sorta yeah. It's more about using a form of communication that works. White men aren't some horrid monster. They're a group of people like we all are. They can have ideas that work.
why not just answer my question? How should i stereotype the people mentioned above to relate to them?
veeeSix ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:21:48 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Is that a racial sexist remark?
laccro ยท 10 points ยท Posted at 16:50:55 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
So I want you to know that I fully support you being transgender, I think that's great, and I'm glad you have the ability to do with your body whatever you like.
Thing is, gender just isn't something that people think about, and that's not meant to insult anyone. Most people just don't mentally allocate any resources to caring, and it really isn't important to anyone anyways.
I just met someone named Jeff, let's say. I don't care anything about gender, even if its someone who recently became male from female. They're just Jeff to me, and when I talk about them in conversation, I'm going to call Jeff male. I don't want to spend time and energy worrying about it, but someone named Jeff is most likely male and that's what my brain will take and run with.
If Jeff comes up to me and says "Hey, I know we just met, but I actually prefer to be called a female," I would say sure, and make a conscious effort to now call Jeff "Her" in conversation, because now I know to care. I might mistakenly say "him" a few times until I can retrain my brain to be correct, but I'll do my best.
If 99% of people I meet are the gender that I think they are, it isn't worth my brainpower to try to categorize people differently than my assumption unless it's pointed out to me directly.
I don't think you should define yourself by your gender, define yourself by how you act and what you do. I don't care if you identify as a man or a woman or neither, I just care that you're a decent person. Let me get to know you a bit before correcting me, it'll make me more likely to like you based on your personality.
Does that make sense? The brain would be exhausted trying to come up with specific gender categories for everyone in all situations. You're best off saving that talk about the gender that you prefer to be called for when you know someone.
Right, but rolling your eyes at people who obsess over gender pronouns is no worse than rolling your eyes at people who obsess over World of Warcraft or anime or the Red Sox or whatever else people get overly preoccupied with. It's not something people should do with pride, but it's something most people do nonetheless.
Swie ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 19:04:32 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
To be fair, your gender is a much bigger deal than your favourite video game. It literally colors every social interaction you perform and the only reason you don't notice it is because you've never had a problem with it.
It's just like you don't notice that you're breathing until your breathing is abnormal.
People whose gender is not normal are not so much obsessing over it as they are noticing and bothered by a million things we don't notice and don't bother us.
That said I agree that trans people should try to minimize how much everyone else has to deal with their issue, but if they need us to make small changes to avoid them having an uncomfortable life I think that's fair.
nayamasu ยท -5 points ยท Posted at 16:37:36 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
That doesn't make it less real. It's a part of life now. We're not going away.
During my job as a delivery driver going to dozens of super markets, country clubs, bagel shops and other various demographics etc.. gender is not brought up at all in all my exchanges, nor does it influence any thing that is happening. Our society might 'use gender' in applications, forms and other paper work, but beyond the word - it really means nothing besides what you're particular too/influenced by/attracted too/or want to happen to you. It's like picking what sport's team to follow - it's your personal business (most gender related functions occur in the privacy of your home any ways), but I really don't care what gender you're assigning yourself to and it doesn't (at least it shouldn't) effect me in the slightest. If you want to be labeled she/he/whatever, that's fine - just don't get salty at people for having to adjust to your personal world view, which matters naught to them and can even be perceived as a mental sickness by some (other topics like this include; Vaccinations, GMO etc - where in, your belief is enough to be wrongly labeled/judged).
co99950 ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 18:50:21 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It unfortunately sounds like they're trying to make rules surrounding the conversation. That's super fine in a formal setting, but it can be very uncomfortable in an informal one.
nayamasu ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 16:35:58 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
That's a perception you can easily change by being aware of the conversation and accepting it. Then it's over and done with. Also, I find that informal settings are often the hardest place to explain your pronouns. One on one is so much more intimate that awkward questions often come up. Not usually prompted by the trans individual.
I'm just more curious as to why the conversation would move that way in the first place. Informal settings can tend to be far more small talk and that's totally not a small talk type of thing.
nayamasu ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 16:57:49 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
When your identity is based on your gender and making sure that you are addressed correctly in all spaces the conversation easily shifts this way.
"can I get you a drink bro?"
"sure but my pronouns are she/her"
The reasons I always disclose.
1. It's safer for me- disclosing right away insures that the person buying me a drink knows I'm trans. This gives them a chance to say they're not interested BEFORE they pay for something. How disappointed would you be if you bought a someone a drink and after taking a sip said they were married? Kinda the same line of thinking. Let them know who you are so they can make an informed decision.
2. Bigots.
These are tactics trans people use to stay safe.
nf5 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 17:19:07 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Ive read how, in every thread on this subject, you've butted heads with everyone looking to start fights. Over pronouns for a conversation that never happened.
You're the common denominator! I got something for you that's gender neutral! You're an asshole!
Bro is neutral don't be so sensitive. Also that scenario has never happened to you
oditogre ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 16:34:49 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
More likely, they didn't know what their 'old friend' was getting at, but they could tell that the conversation suddenly became awkward and subtly manipulative, so they nope!'d out.
Try being direct and honest, instead. I know that might be awkward and uncomfortable for you, but the fact is that in today's society, the awkwardness is going to happen with this conversation, so if you insist that the conversation be had (which is fine!), it's only fair that you own it.
Your approach just offloads the discomfort on the other person, which is crap, and it's no wonder some people would rather just walk away. That doesn't make them transphobic.
Have an entire population adjust a ubiquitous form of greeting to accommodate approximately 0.3% of the population? I'm always amused when people are surprised this isn't really catching on.
nayamasu ยท -5 points ยท Posted at 17:17:45 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
But it is catching on. Slowly. We are patient. I believe you'll understand someday.
And what if scientific understanding advances to the point that we understand transgender experiences as a disorder related to development and altered neurochemistry?
What if we develop something that stops people experiencing gender dysphoria?
Can we stop the language policing then?
xnxn_ ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 16:38:16 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted] ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 16:28:05 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
it's transphobic in a subtle way, which is the worst in my opinion
Well that's why it's your opinion. If every joke is about your protected group and is so terrible you might want to avoid them
nayamasu ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 16:31:26 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
My opinion was that subtle atrocities are the worst. You have decided that this means I hate people who don't understand transphobic things. I don't. Transphobia is all around us. I'm trying to point it out a little at a time.
You have decided that someone who doesn't care about gendered pronouns is transphobic. I have a trans friend, I accidentally called her a she. I was then corrected and now call him a he. It was that simple. It didn't need to be a jumping off point to start a conversation.
Some people just don't care enough to worry about it, what with life getting in the way. They don't let your choices change the way they live, they probably have more to worry about than your feelings. We all have little things that bother us in life and it's easy to let that control your day to day conversations. But it doesn't have to. You don't need to force a learning experience on to people, it will happen naturally, they'll learn from their mistake and then move on with the conversation.
You were pretty quick to judge all white men in another post, but I realize that we're the PC bad guys at this point and it's not worth it to go off on you for assuming that we're all the same because it'll just put a damper on my day and I have too much homework to deal with to worry about the fact you think white men are evil because some of us don't care about gendered pronouns when it's only become an issue in, what, the past year or two?
nayamasu ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 17:16:21 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I don't think they're evil. I think they are a community that needs to talk about these things. Ignorance is a word I would use but the connotation of it is too strong.
You're right though I did lose my patience and made a comment about white men. I'll try to be better about losing my temper in the future. Thank you for reminding me that we all make mistakes. I think I'll leave it up so that when others go digging they can see my flaws and understand that I'm human like them.
[deleted] ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 16:41:26 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Except transphobia to you is apparently a joke which wasn't even directly related to trans people. You decided to make it about them
nayamasu ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 16:59:40 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Transphobia is super serious. I don't think it's a joke at all.
Nothing subtle about it. The gif is openly trans-phobic.
oditogre ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 17:38:38 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I'm sorry you're being downvoted into the negatives, here. While I don't agree with you, this has been a good conversation, and people shouldn't be using the blue arrow as a disagree button. :/
nayamasu ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 18:32:15 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It's whatevs
I'm really not the best at this and people who want to be mad will be. I admit that I'm not perfect and there are better ways to have the conversation but I'm just doing what I can to help people understand.
nayamasu ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:47:01 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Im glad I saw someone else pointing it that this is actually a pretty shitty post. If someone asks you your preferred pronoun, just tell them and then ask what theirs are.
I get misgendered multiple times every day, so yeah, it definitely comes up. When you meet someone new and talk about them to someone else, you use pronouns a lot. It comes up more than you think it would.
Yes, people do talk like that outside of the Internet. The difference is that nobody makes a big deal about it outside of the internet because the transphobic people tend to stay away from places where people talk like that.
It's something of a courtesy, so you get a little sense of that person's identity without getting into the minutiae. In most cases people will go with he, she, or they pronouns. That's all you really need to know, unless you're having a deep dive "get to know you" kind of interaction.
Honestly, the people who are so annoyed or outraged by it seem to be the more sensitive. It's a simple question with a fairly simple answer.
No it's not. Not in real life at least. This kinda shit only exists on reddit and the outrage culture that it perpetuates.
SirDinkus ยท -10 points ยท Posted at 16:12:17 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
According to science, it's not a thing. According to Tumblr, it's the most important thing. Which our society is listening to is a sign of our times.
(And no, you can't find a single peer reviewed study on transgenderism/gender fluidity. You can't even find a study that isn't blatantly biased or extremely poorly executed.)
Edit: Dislike this comment all you like. I'll refute my claim as soon as one of you links a study that gives any sort of concrete evidence transgenderism/gender fluidity is based on science.
Well, that's not exactly true. Mainstream medical organizations both recognize the existence of trans people and the efficacy of transitioning. It's just odd that you would ask every person you meet about gender pronouns when trans people make up such a small portion of society.
murphymc ยท -2 points ยท Posted at 17:08:30 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Mainstream medical organizations both recognize the existence of trans people and the efficacy of transitioning
Only insofar that the rate of suicide among post-transition people is slightly lower than that of pre-transition people. The root of the person's problem is rooted much deeper than simply a disassociation with their outward appearance.
Do you have a source for this that makes a causal connection and moderates for factors such as more visibility as a trans person in their communities and the judgement and discrimination that comes with it?
murphymc ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 17:26:56 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I don't, and I'm not sure there is one. The subject as a whole needs a whole lot more study.
I think mainstream medical organizations recognize the existence of "furries" too, but they aren't giving credence to the notion that people with a fursona where born that way, or that their intense desire to identify with an animal is somehow based on science. That's the difference here. People on Tumblr with worthless degrees are changing the definitions of patently scientific terms, without any actual evidence.
I'm waiting on you to cough up that proof, buddy. The way these people with worthless degrees have redefined scientific terms (without any true supporting evidence) is wrong. As wrong as putting entries into legitimate biological journals on Unicorns. Until you can prove it exists and isn't a figment of peoples imaginations, it doesn't deserve being treated as fact.
Did you bother to read that? Please point to anywhere in that article where there's actually a point being made. I believe the best you can do is say that it "suggests a correlation". At best.
[deleted] ยท 76 points ยท Posted at 18:08:39 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
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[deleted] ยท 32 points ยท Posted at 19:04:45 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
also, campus petitions in general lol
you're walking around campus on game day, pretty buzzed, and some goober asks you to sign something really quick. might even give you a pen for your troubles. bam, they get a "supporter"
Not ignoring minority populations is a big part of why we have government in the first place. If we just had direct majority opinion rule, it'd be a nightmare for small groups like lgbt who'd never be able to oppose the much larger straight population who have very little incentive to bother trying to understand or care about their problems.
However, I have to disagree with your opposition of gender-neutral pronouns. They/them is a lot easier to use than most people seem to realize, and we all already use it all the time when speaking about people whose gender we don't know. For instance, if somebody cut you off in traffic, you might say, "Who the hell do they think they are!?" without even thinking about the fact you didn't say he or she, since you didn't know. It really isn't that hard or much of a stretch to use it with non-binary people. I don't consider any pronouns other then she/her, he/him, or they/them to be valid, nor do I believe most trans people would either. Bringing up nonsense like 'other-kin' is a huge straw-man, I've literally never heard it used outside of an excuse to ridicule trans people.
Fozzo ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 19:59:38 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Studies vary, but it could be anywhere from 2-7% or so for all lgbt, unless you're just polling San Francisco. Although the most common figures seem to suggest 3-4%.
Fozzo ยท -2 points ยท Posted at 20:44:55 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Just curious, got any global stats? I live over in the UK and I don't know if its just confirmation bias but I think there's a higher % here. Legitimately surprised by that though, thanks for the info :)
It's actually really common for people to overestimate the lgbt population for various reasons, usually because of it's current/recent acceptance movement and political spotlight. I recall one of those on-the-street video poll joke teams confronting people about this and getting crazy high figures like 30-50%, for example.
Here is the parent page of the previous US specific page I linked, which includes under the UK heading, this very relevant infographic.
muzakx ยท 38 points ยท Posted at 16:38:59 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Hilarious.
Reminds me of The Satanic Temple's tactics.
wallowls ยท 22 points ยท Posted at 17:03:04 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I think this kid is making an interesting point and applaud him for taking action, but that doesn't change the fact that Tucker Carlson is a fucking tool
mcon96 ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 19:40:15 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I go to u of m and they didn't "tell us to select our gender pronouns." They just made it easier to change the ones that they have on file, 99% of students weren't even affected by it. I don't see why anybody would be against this...
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:13:32 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
From what I heard around campus (nothing), it was a non-issue. I still agree with his point though, that teachers shouldn't have the possibility of being sanctioned for accidentally using the wrong pronoun.
I think most trans people wouldn't overreact to accidental misgendering, but they do need some sort of recourse when intentional misgendering is going on from people in authority over them, which seems to be the idea behind this. I've heard of that happening quite a lot. It's too easy for people who disagree with the trans lifestyle to pretend like they didn't know or that they 'have to' use the wrong pronouns for various invented reasons.
He was definitely protesting a nonexistent problem. All the university did was allow trans-students (or anyone else for that matter) to select their preferred pronouns. Most people haven't selected theirs and won't because they don't feel the need to. It hasn't even taken effect yet (there are few more weeks before the roster is updated I think) so there wasn't a "problem" to even protest yet.
Honestly, it's a very small thing to do for a small subsection of the student body and it hurts no one. The "punishments" are for professors who intentionally refer to someone by the wrong pronoun (imagine if you had a professor who intentionally referred to you by the wrong name, it's the same thing). Protesting it makes you a dick.
I mean, everyone is in their own stall anyways. If the guys bathroom is full of guys hogging the stalls on Reddit, you know I'm going to have to pee somewhere.
A lot of people changed their pronoun to ridiculous things. I almost changed mine to Attack Helicopter.
[deleted] ยท 12 points ยท Posted at 19:31:54 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
"When someone is referred to with the wrong pronoun, it can make them feel disrespected, invalidated, dismissed, alienated, or dysphoric (or, often, all of the above.)"
No, that means you're a weak frail pussy who can't handle life.
ksaid1 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 07:52:05 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I dunno, I'm a dude and if people constantly referred to me as a woman it wouldn't make feel respected and validated.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:19:00 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I still don't think that's a reason to feel those things, also, you were most likely born a guy, I'm guessing, so humans are naturally gonna assume guy.
[deleted] ยท 19 points ยท Posted at 16:38:55 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
* Exclusive or (logic)
* XOR cipher, an encryption algorithm
* XOR gate
* bitwise XOR, an operator used in computer programming
* XOR (video game)
* XOR, an x86 instruction
* Xor DDoS
they/them as a singular became common, and were designed to fix the fact that the English has (well had, they/them is now grammatically correct to use in the singular as well)
Shakespeare used the singular 'they'.
[deleted] ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 18:47:52 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
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Ta2punk ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 17:08:50 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
When you thought it couldn't get any worse and then read some shit like this. WTF is wrong with people these days.
[deleted] ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 17:12:57 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
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Ta2punk ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 21:12:41 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
That was not directed at you in any way, sorry if it seemed so.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 04:20:01 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Why on earth is this a problem with you?
Ta2punk ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 10:06:27 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It's just really fucking stupid. Everyone has to have their own personalized label and be a special snowflake. There's nothing you could say that would make this bullshit rational or needed in my opinion.
Of course, but I don't think it is a stretch to say that the people who are stickers for asking about non-apparent pronouns are not to far of from Kinfolk.
[deleted] ยท -3 points ยท Posted at 17:46:47 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
There is probably an equal amount of inprovable evidence that people legitimately use for both sides. There is more than none for transgenderism, but not tons more than there isnt for kinfolk.
[deleted] ยท -2 points ยท Posted at 19:14:11 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
Yeah, im not saying there isnt any, or even isnt a lot of evidence. But id say a lot of people put stock in the emotional aspect before the evidence for either.
Cheveyo ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 23:51:24 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Multiple studies have been done showing that transgender people have similar brain structures to brains of the people whose gender they identify as.
You mean those sexist studies that don't understand that gender is a social construct?
I'm with you on this one. One is a made up gender, the other one made up a way to use an existing gender. Not sure whichever I believe is strangest though, the one who believe they are a dragon or the one who want to cut off their penis.
[deleted] ยท 22 points ยท Posted at 16:51:37 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
Because only an insufferable twat would try to make the logical conclusion that a royal title is equivalent to someone's gender expression. It's intentionally insulting and demeaning.
[deleted] ยท 13 points ยท Posted at 17:59:25 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
You're having a laugh, but making fun of people who have annoying or idiosyncratic ways of referring to themselves has a legitimate and demonstrably negative effect on people who genuinely do wish to be referred by different gender pronouns.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 21:39:08 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Look up the negative mental health impacts of gender dysphoria. Look up "the harms of misgendering" on Google. Look up the suicide, murder and homelessness rates of transgender individuals.
When you make fun of someone requesting certain pronouns, you delegitimise and dehumanise them. Your action says "I care less about you as a person than I do about making a joke for the sake of the status quo." Our nation and society has a terrible track record for listening to marginalised and oppressed peoples and seeking to understand their struggles, and those peoples have, on the whole, a lower societal value as a result. And that's fucked up.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:19:58 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Still waiting for you to prove the connection. A simple suicide rate does not equate to misgendering being the cause of said suicide rate.
A quick glance through the first page of your comment history is all the "proof" I need to end this exchange here.
Also, you've called people "condescending" three times in the last hour alone, and your own comments reveal an incredibly snide attitude coming from your side almost without fail. I don't know if you're having a tough day today in particular, or if you're just always like this, but from a self-professed "Bernie supporter," they don't paint you in a very good light. I hope you're able to spend some time really reflecting on what sort of ideals and attitudes he stands for.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 00:17:24 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
So you went through my recent comment section so you could be even more rude and condescending. Wow. Congratulations.
Still waiting for that proof.
Keep attempting to insult me if you want. It won't make your original statement true. Which was the entire point of this conversation.
I find it interesting that you don't have the time to actually present your proof BUT you definitely have time to look through my personal comment history for reasons and ways to insult me. Incredibly poor use of your time considering.
I'm not having a bad day, and my support for Sanders has nothing to do with your apparent inability to present such proof. Your attempt to sway this conversation to make it personal is very sad and makes it plainly obvious that you have absolutely no proof to show.
u/Snoopy_Hates_Germans is being a total dick but you don't win by fighting condescension with condescension my man. Do you actually care about transsexual issues, or did you just want to argue with someone my man?
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 01:22:27 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I wanted what I asked for. Nothing more. Nothing less.
[deleted] ยท -16 points ยท Posted at 16:53:58 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
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[deleted] ยท 17 points ยท Posted at 17:17:23 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
As far as I could tell from the article (and feel free to correct me) no one was being forced to do anything. The university asked people for their preferred pronouns for its own database. Kind of lame I guess, but not the sort of thing I would expect to see making headlines around the world.
[deleted] ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 17:22:35 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
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[deleted] ยท 10 points ยท Posted at 17:45:57 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
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[deleted] ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 17:52:18 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
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[deleted] ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 18:05:16 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
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[deleted] ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 18:09:20 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
It's just pretty annoying. For example, I may identify as a female unicorn-kin, and though outwardly I may look CIS male, expect those around me to use a special pronoun set.
I'd much rather we eliminate all gender-basis from all pronouns and just settle on one nonspecific set of pronouns. Or, maybe people just be happy with those we have in language today, and not be bothered by it.
Id rather a lot of things be different, but until then, ignoring or otherwise purposefully misgendering people after theyve stated otherwise is just generally a douchey thing to do. If people want to ignore these things, they have every right to, if they want to call people by there biological sex even if they are told otherwise that they identify as something else they shouldnt be crucified, but they have to accept that by doing that you are making someones life worse. There is no way around it. It would be like if you walked up to someone who has dwarfism and referred to them as a midget, and they kindly responded, "I prefer the term little person", and you said, "okay midget." You'd be a cunt. Same way with trans people, its literally three word changes that would make someones day and help them feel validated as a human being. If you choose to willfully disregard it, youre a cunt.
TLDR: Everyone has the right to be a cunt, but nobody likes cunts.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 18:42:26 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
No wonder this world is going to shit. Wasting government money on gender identity disorders to ultimately decide to promote surgeries that increase suicide rates. So we support and nurture these people and pressure them into something that makes it worse.
In the meanwhile everyone around them starts to suffer from these insane topics affecting and ruining our schools such as this pronoun discussion.
47oar6Vy ยท -8 points ยท Posted at 17:43:28 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Because identifying with a gender other than your biological sex is a mental disorder and we should be treating it rather than encouraging delusions?
[deleted] ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 17:49:57 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
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47oar6Vy ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 18:53:23 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
And in 30 years we'll be looking back on this insanity the same way we look back on lobotomizing and institutionalizing women for being unhappy in their marriages.
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 18:59:40 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
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47oar6Vy ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 19:24:55 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I don't think you understand what an opinion is.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:31:33 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
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47oar6Vy ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:37:09 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
There are literally no facts on this subject other than biological ones.
Other than that you have surveys and stats that show transgender people are more likely to commit suicide post reassignment surgery than before.
[deleted] ยท 46 points ยท Posted at 16:41:53 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Honestly I'd probably totally call him "his majesty" if I knew him because I'll never get another opportunity to call someone that. That and i'm sure it'd really get on his nerves after a while. He'd eventually start telling me to call him "he" instead and then he'd finally understand why the professor asked him for his preferred pronoun in the first place.
One of my girlfriend's roommates uses they/them and it's so hard to catch myself every time I try referring to them.
They're a short, big titted, long haired, make-up wearing, female born individual who doesn't try to be a man but doesn't like being called a woman either.
Most people who go by nonbinary pronouns are used to people messing it up, and understand when you slip up as long as you are still making an effort to remember.
I personally don't have much interest in gender politics or linguistics, I just have friends who are more comfortable being referred to with pronouns that don't match their biological sex. And they've told me what I wrote in the post above.
Thank you for being willing to at least try. My son is FtM Trans, and though he has short-cropped hair and an androgynous face, has a very shapely feminine body. As soon as he let us know what he wanted, we in the family made a concerted effort to refer to him by his preferred pronouns. It's a big challenge for people who have known the person their whole lives, much less don't have as intimate of a relationship with them.
A request/tip, if I may (I know you said you catch yourself, but I wanted to throw this in as well): If they correct your accidental misgendering, try not to get frustrated or act offended. Just accept it and move on. It helps them feel you are really trying to get it right and respect their identity, even though you may not do it perfectly every time.
If your child grew up with a level of confusion forcing her to believe part of her core genetics were flawed, you failed as a parent. Call a spade a spade.
Are we not allowed to have an opinion on what is good parenting? It was harsh I agree.
Anecdotal evidence incoming: Most LGBT people I know have weird fucking family dynamics.
tebasj ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 22:34:35 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
because people with views like yours parent them leading to conflict over their identity. if their parents were open and willing to accept their identities, the family dynamic wouldn't be weird
I know you didn't mean weird in a good way. That's why I'm trying to tell you that you AREN'T respecting differences, not in the slightest. You may have called yourself "old fashioned" but in every comment here you've proved you really meant that you're not accepting. Grow up, please, the world is a big place.
If your child grew up with a level of confusion forcing her to believe part of her core genetics were flawed, you failed as a parent. Call a spade a spade.
Thank you for being respectful of their identity. People don't seem to understand that gender roles and concepts of what it means to be a certain gender are evolving, as they have since the dawn of civilization. And some cultures have more than one identified/classified gender.
Gender is an identity of oneself and how one chooses to relate to themselves and the culture around them. It's not black and white.
[deleted] ยท 46 points ยท Posted at 18:02:46 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
Personality and gender are not the same thing. Ones personality does not cause them to be transgender. It's the other way around, if at all.
Boxing up genders may be a silly thing, but at our current advancements in our culture and society, pronouns and gender labels are beneficial for ease of use. Saying "they" won't kill you.
[deleted] ยท 10 points ยท Posted at 18:14:06 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
they are. You're trapped in a mindset that let's you think they would be different.
They really aren't. You're trapped in a closed mind that won't let you consider new ideas.
that's the insidious way of saying "shut up and follow our bad solution". I hate how people like you are hurting the equality for everyone and removal of constraints/expectations based on biological sex, even though you think you would actually be helping it.
How dare they! Wanting to be afforded basic respect and all that.
DionyKH ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 18:55:04 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You and everyone who shares this mode of thought are thoroughly insane. You will never be mainstream, you will always be fucking weirdos in the corner. It's cute that you think otherwise, though.
Thanks for your input, I'll be sure to take it into account and go on living my life as a fucking weirdo in the corner, because apparently offering other people basic respect isn't normal. :)
DionyKH ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 19:12:35 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It's not basic respect. You thinking that is part of what makes you crazy. It's jumping through hoops for people who are making up bullshit to make themselves seem more interesting. Get a hobby, ffs
TIL using "they" is jumping through hoops. Get a life and stop being so offended all the time.
DionyKH ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:27:50 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Nobody is offended. I'm not bothered by you at all. I know that's what you want, to be edgy and make people uncomfortable, but that's not what you get. You just get weird looks and pity. Not as much pity as your parents probably get, but they won't be ridiculed behind their back and excluded from group gatherings, so there's that.
I don't want to make anyone uncomfortable, that's what you want to do. Literally this entire conversation is you calling me crazy and getting outraged over me not wanting to make people uncomfortable.
I don't know what kind of horrible people you hang out with, but where I live people are actually decent human beings, and using "they" is actually pretty normal. Trust me, nobody pities anyone over here, because we're not horrible people.
[deleted] ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 18:55:45 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
One that pops to mind in particular are the Hijra of India; they are typicall MtF transwomen, though IIRC different gender expectations exist for FtM trans men as well. Native American, Hawaiian, and Andean cultures also recognize(d) more than two genders.
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 20:17:18 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
So, hopefully it's not intolerant to ask but what is the inner feeling of not being your birth gender?
I'm a non-trans male, but I really only make that classification based on my anatomy. I like feminine-perceived drinks and listen to girl bands and cry during movies. I have lots of behaviors that wouldn't be considered masculine, but I've never felt like I'm really a female inside.
I know it goes beyond those superficial things for actual trans people, and I'm not trying to trivialize it. I just don't really feel like any gender. I am what I am. I never feel the need to affirm that I'm a man through behavior or clothes or anything. So what is the mental process of a trans person realizing they're not the gender they were born with?
Being transgender itself is not classified as a mental illness by the Diagnostic Statistical Manual, 5th Edition. Gender dysphoria is, but it is rather a set of symptoms/psychological phenomena occurring in an individual whose physiology does not align with their personal gender identity.
A psychological state is considered a mental disorder only if it causes significant distress or disability. Many transgender people do not experience their gender as distressing or disabling, which implies that identifying as transgender does not constitute a mental disorder. For these individuals, the significant problem is finding affordable resources, such as counseling, hormone therapy, medical procedures and the social support necessary to freely express their gender identity and minimize discrimination.
This debate is growing stale. I will clearly not sway you. I can only beg you to express respect and empathy to transgender folks for what they are going through, just trying to be the people they feel they need to be.
Adios.
[deleted] ยท -13 points ยท Posted at 17:18:43 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Gender is the range of characteristics pertaining to, and differentiating between, masculinity and femininity. Depending on the context, these characteristics may include biological sex (i.e. the state of being male, female or intersex), sex-based social structures (including gender roles and other social roles), or gender identity.[1][2][3] Some cultures have specific gender roles that can be considered distinct from male and female, such as the hijra (chhaka) of India and Pakistan.
Gender constructs may have reference to biological sex, but it is much more inclusive of other factors than that. Why not open your mind to a larger worldview?
One theory is this concept of "brain mapping." Not a literal layout, mind you, but hear me out: before a person is born, their brain is "mapped" to recognize different parts of their body, like arms, legs, etc. This may also include genitals and other sex characteristics. So, a person whose chromosomes are male may have a brain mapped to look for female characteristics; when those characteristics cannot be found, a discrepancy forms which can be crippling and devastating psychologically. Their body literally doesn't "match up" with what their brain is trying to find.
This may be why people who are born without, say, an arm can still feel phantom pain "in" that arm even though it was never there to begin with.
A trans person who never had contact with an established social group would still need to transition for this reason.
I'm not arguing with someone who I'm assuming is a fully grown adult about genders, because I shouldn't fucking have to, and the sad part is that some people have to enlighten ADULTS on how genders work. You should have learned about it in school like everyone else did. If you didn't understand it from the get go or just naively adopted what batshit crazy people on social media websites claim as fact about something as basic as differentiating man from woman, then you truly have no hope for the future. It's almost 2017 for fucks sake. We could be accomplishing so much more that is worthwhile, and here you are with all the other screaming social justice harlots defending someone's made up gender on the internet.
Why don't you just take the time to look into and consider that it might not hurt you to try? Why does it bother you? Does it make you uncomfortable? What are you afraid of? What's wrong?
One of the tenants of science is to always be skeptical, to keep your mind open to the idea that maybe, just maybe, you're not always right, even if something makes the most sense to you. Who knows, in the years to come, I'm sure there will be many evolving studies and arguments regarding the concept of gender. The overlap of biology and social science is still a debated issue, but it doesn't mean it's invalid. Part of "having a brain" is to be open to having your beliefs challenged by existing study.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:50:41 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Being transgender itself is not a mental illness according to the DSM 5.
Gender dysphoria, which is a combination of symptoms of anxiety, depression and other emotional disturbances as a result of the internal mismatch, is a mental illness, but being transgender is not.
People just don't want to let go of what they're familiar with. It makes the uncomfortable to admit, maybe changing ideas about gender aren't such a bad thing. It's sad, really, that people want to reject social science as if it's "not real science."
ESL learner here. I have a legitimate question: in this particular context, should I still be saying "they are", or "they is" (kind of a singular they)?
You'd say "they are", even though it would be he is or she is if they used the he/she pronouns.
Don't know why it flips. English is silly
[deleted] ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 19:03:58 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Why are pronouns important in the first place?
How about being say queer and picking whichever pronoun that corresponds to how you look?
That way, people who it may be relevant to - family, friends, colleagues know you don't identify as either male or female without having to remember an awkward pronoun.
And people who you don't closely interact with - well your gender isn't really relevant to them. Anyone who gets close enough, then they'd know about it.
Like, we understand that someone can be called he or she and identify as queer.
[deleted] ยท -13 points ยท Posted at 16:54:49 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
They're a person. Let them have human pronouns. Don't be a fuckwad.
Gender is not black and white nor is it binary. It's a concept that varies from culture to culture. For example, the Hijra in India (typically MtF trans folks) are a third gender, and have certain roles in society that they are expected to fulfill, just like male and female cisgender people have different roles from one another.
From Wikipedia:
Gender is the range of characteristics pertaining to, and differentiating between, masculinity and femininity. Depending on the context, these characteristics may include biological sex (i.e. the state of being male, female or intersex), sex-based social structures (including gender roles and other social roles), or gender identity.[1][2][3] Some cultures have specific gender roles that can be considered distinct from male and female, such as the hijra (chhaka) of India and Pakistan.
laccro ยท 54 points ยท Posted at 16:37:52 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
students may select from pronouns โ such as he, she, they or ze (a gender-neutral pronoun) โ or choose none at all
How is ze doing? Turn in zes paper
I can't even say that without saying the following word in a French accent
jbakers ยท 36 points ยท Posted at 17:12:34 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Trankman ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 17:34:55 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
The last 2 seasons of The League were bad. Like end it on a high note, they go from being dicks to each other to just being horrible people in a too over the top way.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 08:11:01 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Been a while since I finished but I thought they tried to be too much like Always Sunny at the end. First two/three seasons were amazing comedy though.
But the point is sex and gender ARE binary, even hermaphrodites have one set of fully functioning reproductive organs and people with other intersex conditions are also either male or female. People can identify however they please, male, female or attack choppers, but no one should be forced or expected to indulge or participate in that identity.
1Down ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 20:15:14 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
The international medical community disagrees with you.
About what exactly? That there are only two sexes?
1Down ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 20:45:46 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I was reading that as saying that transgender people aren't a real thing that should be recognized. If you're speaking specifically about non-binary identities and not trying to dismiss transgender people in general then I don't know what the medical community's stance on non-binary is.
[deleted] ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 22:46:46 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
So the entire population has indulged in calling a man Snoop Dogg but if an average person asked to be referred to with they/them pronouns instead of male or female then they are the ones being out of line? That's asking too much? We've got Beyonce, Jay Z, Dr Dre, P!nk...that's all totally fine and reasonable? But if someone doesn't fit into the abstract idea of what a man or a women should be they don't deserve your respect? You couldn't ever possibly be bothered to refer to them as anything other than him or her?
You, my friend, are a piece of garbage. And I hope you look forward to being one of the bigots your grandchildren and great grandchildren learn about in their history class. Because if you really can't comprehend that that is where your point of view will end up, you're not only a piece of garbage, but also an ignorant and delusional one.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 07:42:29 on October 11, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
[removed]
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 07:50:23 on October 11, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You seem to be really worked up by something that will literally never affect you.
Do you question your own gender identity? It must be tough dealing with that internalized hatred. Hopefully one day you learn to accept yourself as you are. :D You'll be happier then.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 10:08:14 on October 11, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You must be so terribly insecure to go out of your way in an attempt to make other people feel bad. Run to r/the_donald and brag about how you triggered some rando on the internet.
Good luck finding some confidence in a more healthy way. This trans guy believes in you :D
Having a name (bizarre or not) is one thing, expecting others to indulge you in your special snowflake version of reality is another...and im quite sure that historians will look at folk such as yourself and the other tumblr cultists with great distain and embarrassment.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 00:05:05 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Keep telling yourself that. Racists, sexists, and homophobes thought the same thing.
BKTHROW2 ยท -4 points ยท Posted at 19:24:37 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Lol it's fun you can already predict the people who post to the_donald tumblrinaction and other reactionary safe spaces :)
[deleted] ยท 31 points ยท Posted at 20:56:17 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I get that this is a controversial topic. But we just had LGTBQ training at work and one person let the rest of the staff know that they're actually in the beginning stages of transitioning from male to female and would like to be called her/she by other staff.
For years we've been treating this person as a dude because nobody ever asked them what they wanted. And the fact that we had training and opened the doors to those questions and discussions made them comfortable enough to say 'hey guys, I'm actually a woman'.
I know people think it's all SJW-y and kind of dumb. But, legit, I think it really helped in our work place situation.
Snailic ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 22:43:05 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I know people think it's all SJW-y and kind of dumb.
No, they think that the people trying to create "gender pronouns" is dumb.
All that coworker had to do from the beginning is to just mention or correct someone that they preferred to be called she/her. But delving into this realm of xe/ze/zir/xir/etc.. whatever that nonsense is, is completely dumb.
[deleted] ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 02:02:14 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I think that telling your co-workers you're transsexual - particularly while still presenting physically as a member of one gender because you haven't had surgery yet - is a difficult task. We're a more progressive place for trans people than 10 or 50 years ago but there's still a lot of anxiety with 'coming out'. It would have been hard for them to just mention it casually.
hailunix ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 22:53:35 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I think alot of folks don't think the trans issue is necessarily sjw-ish. I think there's science to back up the fact that a person's gender is not guaranteed to be controlled by their sex. Where it might go off the rails is the idea that biologically someone could be some other gender besides male or female.
At the end of the day there are attention starved folks who will latch on to any cause (like gluten free people that don't have ciliacs). Doesn't mean someone doesn't have a valid issue.
[deleted] ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 02:01:47 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I don't see why it doesn't follow that if gender is a matter of identity rather than biology that there are people who don't identify with either female or male genders.
Also, I don't get the hate for gluten free people. I hate mushrooms, mustard and clams. Nobody get's up in my gonch about being mushroom-free and claim it's about attention. What somebody choses to eat or not to eat doesn't necessarily make them desperate for drama and attention so much as personal preference.
Maybe she goes to a place where people get offended if you don't ask, so overtime she made it a habit of asking
c3534l ยท 49 points ยท Posted at 17:31:34 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I had a class where we had to stand up and say our names, our major, our pronouns, one "interesting fact" about us, etc. Everyone was skipping the pronoun bit because, really wtf, and every time she got offended and made us clearly state that we "identified" with being male or female. One person said "what kind of question is that?" and an unrelated chick got really pissed and said "I don't know if anyone has told you yet, but now we choose our gender and you can have he/him, she/her, or xi/xir, got it?" These people are real and they won't accept anything other than that they're 100% right and everyone is required to do what they say.
[deleted] ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 02:20:27 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
These people are real and they won't accept anything other than that they're 100% right and everyone is required to do what they say.
I heard they drink the blood of children at night and control the highest levels of government.
[deleted] ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 18:27:43 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Yeah, 60 years ago we had a word for these people: fascists.
wew lad
Subvs ยท 9 points ยท Posted at 21:22:36 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Can you please explain to me how people he prefer a certain pronoun are fascists? Not sealioning either, in genuinely curious how does that logic work
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 21:52:33 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
c3534l ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 23:03:28 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
To be fair, no one was assaulted and the class has since contained little politics or ideology. The pledge of allegience is a far more fascist ritual. People were just kind of uncomfortable having to implicitly buy into a particular bit of ideology and not being given an out. No one in the class was of an ambiguous gender, it was just silly really. I'd liken it more to having going around the room asking everyone what their spirit animal was and not being allowed to just skip the question. Like, I don't believe in pretend genders, just leave me alone.
You don't have to subscribe to a certain ideology to have a preferred pronoun set. Do you like being called he? Yes? Cool, there you go. I'm just saying, its not the same as asking someone what their spirit animal is.
There's more to being fascist than enforcing your will on others. You might as well say that the US government is fascist for pushing their own views on murder and rape and not allowing dissent.
[deleted] ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 19:44:35 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
ya can't expect stupid people to use their brains
[deleted] ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 02:23:10 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
the same people who get really offended by people not being aware of gender-choice are the same category of people who tolerate advocacy of violence against white men, solely because of their race and gender.
Sounds like you've got some pretty nasty imaginary friends. And they're starting a category together! Sounds scary.
I seriously don't get it. Is it really that hard to take an extra 3 seconds to say a pronoun?
Are you a mind reader? Because there is absolutely no other way that you know that no-one there is trans.
If it makes even one person in that class comfortable being themselves, not hiding and being forced to lie about who they are, why not just go along with it? Is it really worth it to get so upset about a 3 second statement, once, and only at the beginning of the first class, when people are introducing themselves anyway?
Jesus Christ on a bike people, you don't have to be a SJW to treat people with a modicum of dignity.
This "xi/xir" thing has now been spelled 3 different ways in this thread (ze/zer/zim, xe/xer/xim). If you're going to make shit up, at least get on the same page as to how it's spelled.
c3534l ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 22:30:48 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
She said it like "zebra" and "Ian Ziering." I recalled seeing it spelled with an x before (like xylophone or xerox), but I have a hard time accepting that made-up pronouns have a correct spelling anyway.
Seriously. Where did all this hate and vehemence come from?
14mal02 ยท -2 points ยท Posted at 22:02:41 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
No idea, I always forget how transphobic reddit can get.
Snailic ยท 16 points ยท Posted at 22:40:05 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Its not transphobic FFS.
If you are a male -> female or in the process, you can just correct than and politely say that you prefer to go by "she/her" or whatever. If you are female -> male or in the process, you can just say you prefer to go by "he/him".
There is no need to make 100+ "gender specific" pronouns just so everyone can feel a little special.
Why's this sick a bad thing... A little unconventional yeah, but some people are made to feel realty uncomfortable and upset by the wrong pronouns... It's just nice that she cares that much
I dunno why that's so bad. She just wants to be sure that she doesn't insult you by assuming your gender. You just say "I like he!" and then you keep talking about whatever other stupid shit you were discussing.
Brikachu ยท 337 points ยท Posted at 15:37:13 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Because assuming a person's gender is a pretty normal thing to do. Why make the rest of the 99% of the population go out of their way to "not offend" anyone and, instead, if you're transgender, tell people the pronouns you want to have used to describe you?
How does her asking that mean that 99% of the population has to do it?
wayv___ ยท -6 points ยท Posted at 18:29:05 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
99% of the population dosn't currently have to do it, but it is a step towards normalising the question in everyday conversation so they would be inflicted by it in future.
I mean I agree its a weird question to ask someone with no context that would suggest they use other pronouns, but "inflicted by it in the future?" I don't think it would ever be normalized because the majority of people use pronouns that match their appearance, but why pretend that its taking over? Or that 99% of the population will be forced to ask or have the question "inflicted upon them", whatever that means?
I'm a guy with a pretty feminine build and a high pitch voice. I've been mistaken for a woman before. Someone asking me this question rather than assuming I'm a man would fuck with my self esteem for a while.
[deleted] ยท 15 points ยท Posted at 18:34:57 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Heterosexual masculinity is the enemy of the liberal left. This is a result of every "disenfranchised" group coming together and putting all their blame on one group of people.
There are 100,000 other equally valid unnecessary things someone could ask at the beginning of a conversation.
"Are you afraid of loud noises? Does anyone in your family have Parkinson's? Have you ever lived in the Middle East? Is "blade" one of your trigger words?"
There needs to be some default assumptions when starting a conversation. A simple correction is the most reasonable way to handle it unless you are trying to force them into a PC discussion that they might have zero interest in.
polymesh ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 22:22:06 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Even asking a question at all assumes the person can hear, speak English, or can speak at all.
Marokiii ยท 228 points ยท Posted at 15:54:49 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
because its completely unnecessary. why do the majority of people who respond naturally have to alter the way of a normal conversation to accommodate such a tiny portion of the population? i can go out and ask 100 people what pronouns they want to be called, and probably 99 of those people will respond with the regular pronouns. im not asking everyone if they are a 'special butterfly' when chances are they are just a regular one.
edit: this is a society full of adults, you should be able to have your chosen pronouns not used when being talked with and still somehow survive and not die immediately.
I guess I agree that it isn't necessary and that in fact most of the trans people I know would find it suspiciously in vogue to be concerned about it, but I'd just kind of inwardly assume the person is silly but means well, not insulted as several people here seem to be.
DionyKH ยท 20 points ยท Posted at 18:50:11 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Nobody's insulted. We're just not interested in being friends with someone insane enough to think that's an appropriate conversation starter. It's not offensive, it is a glaring neon sign saying "Crazy shit ahead, turn back now"
Dude what the fuck why is her being polite a bad thing?
Yeah it's unnecessary but she's literally going out of her way to know more about this person and and make them feel accepted.
Why does that upset you so much?
Marokiii ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 08:37:02 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
im responding this way because im giving a response to another comment and not the OP who posted the reaction.
the other comment is suggesting that even though its overly cautious that there isnt really a downside to everyone asking everyone else what pronouns they want to be called.
you can read my response to that comment, and its not really upset at all.
ccfccc ยท -29 points ยท Posted at 16:12:02 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
why do the majority of people who respond naturally have to alter the way of a normal conversation to accommodate such a tiny portion of the population?
Nobody suggested that, you are being ridiculous. People are saying that in this hypothetical scenario, that certainly is incredibly rare, it would be best to just say he or she and continue on without reacting like a child and running off. As an adult, you really shouldn't think this is an issue.
Marokiii ยท 36 points ยท Posted at 16:26:02 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
but they are...the people im responding to are asking why its a bad idea to simply be over cautious and ask everyone which pronouns they want to be called.
its a bad idea because for nearly all conversations its going to give the normal response and be unnecessary. if someone wants to be called a different pronoun than what they appear to me, they can tell me, im not going to ask every person if im addressing them the way they want.
ccfccc ยท -5 points ยท Posted at 16:56:39 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
But you yourself have nothing to do. Stop being paranoid, this happens so rarely in real life. The world is not tumblr.
Nobody was saying you had to go out of your way to ask everyone what their pronouns are, OP was asking what's so bad about the situation in the title, where someone just asks you what pronouns you prefer. OP was saying it's ridiculous to react so strongly to someone asking you when you can just say "he" and move on, as opposed to choosing to completely dissociate with that person, which is your choice of course, but it is pretty ridiculous.
Swie ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:39:07 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It's indicative that this person is probably a little TOO preoccupied with genders if they do this and/or gets very very upset at being misgendered so they have to prevent it at all costs by passive-aggressively forcing you to ask what their pronouns are by asking yours. That's the impression I would get.
Which is why an overwhelming majority of people including trans people do not do this.
Granted literally running away is silly, but lowering your opinion of them based on their weird behaviour isn't.
Is your conversation time that valuable? I mean if 50% of the parties in the conversation think its worth it to spend five seconds to find out that information, is your time sooo valuable that you can't indulge that with a two second answer?
Marokiii ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 19:15:48 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
is the person wanting to have a different pronoun so incapable of bringing it up themselves that they must rely completely on others to do it for them?
why do the 99.42%(only 0.58% of the population in the usa identifies as transgender) of the population who are not transgender spend the effort when it could simply be solved by having those who have an issue with it solve it themselves?
This is like asking why you have to shake someone's hand when you meet them. You don't have to, sometimes it's nice or respectful.
Marokiii ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 19:53:51 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
ya its really not. one is a questioning of someones gender when normally its pretty obvious, and the other is a standard form of greeting. one is a question, the other is not.
plus in some instances i would find someone questioning my gender very disrespectful.
Right, but so would they. That's why they're asking, so they don't get your gender wrong and offend you.
Marokiii ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 20:04:48 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
why dont we just have the 1 person in 200 who would be offended and have them speak up instead of the 199 other people asking what amounts to pointless questions to the rest of the 199 people just to not offend that 1 person?
Because who cares? If someone wants to ask, like what else were you gonna do with that same amount of time that you don't get to do now? Have another sip of your drink? Say "soo..."?
I don't ask this question when I meet people, but I think it's really telling how emotional people react to being asked it. This should not matter to you, and it does. Why is that?
Marokiii ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 19:50:34 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
the same reason im against making the majority of people change when what they are doing is really not doing anyone any harm just so that a minuscule portion of the population can feel good. when the same end could be accomplished by that small portion of people doing this themselves.
the same reason when i go to a restaurant if i have an allergy thats uncommon i have to ask for a list of ingredients to make sure my allergy isnt on that list, instead of the waiter asking everyone at the table if they have allergies.
Narhen ยท -30 points ยท Posted at 16:18:59 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Its simply common courtesy. There are more transgender people than you think, especially if you go out into the real world and experience reality, like I did. I go to a small agriculture-based University in Midwestern Wisconsin. You wouldn't believe how many transgender people there are, and those people are the population that is open and active on campus. Imagine how many hide their identity because of fear.
If you care about being inclusive and having an inclusive community, asking gender pronouns is fairly normal. The changes our society is experiencing in how we think about gender also makes it fairly normal. You're simply assuming that 99/100 people are cis-gender, and thats the problem. There are people who dont identify that way. Making those assumptions excludes an, albeit unknown in size, population. Maybe if we began to be more inclusive of the transgender population instead of shaming them into hiding, we would find out how big the transgender population really is. You're saying that we shouldnt make adjustments to a tiny and necessary part of conversation because the population is not the majority, That just doesnt make sense.
Marokiii ยท 9 points ยท Posted at 16:40:02 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
im not assuming, various govt agencies(like health agencies) have studied it, and their best estimate of people who identify as transgender is at 0.58%. so in fact i was being generous when i said 99/100 identify normally(i didnt even say cis-gender, i talked about normal pronouns which gay and lesbian people still identify normally as).
Actually judging by statistics, there are way less transgender people than I think. I live in Virginia and never see any trans people ever, I've been out in the real world plenty of times, seen a couple at musical festivals. Probably less than 5 in my entire life. I assume more than 99 out of 100 people are cis, more like 499 out of 500 based on real statistics.
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 19:03:39 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Okโฆโฆanecdotal evidence means nothing. That was kind of the point of my first comment, the guy I was replying to was using anecdotal evidence so I threw my hat in.
Narhen ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 16:28:45 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Source?
Marokiii ยท 15 points ยท Posted at 16:50:32 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Most sane people would just politely correct you, not get upset. Some people find it curteous to ask ahead of time. No one is asking you to "revamp" anything, at least not by much.
Spoiler alert: not all transgendered people can be recognized from voice or appearance alone. You've met much much more transgender people than you realize.
Yeah I realize that, but I go to a local community college about to get my Associates and I've never met one person in any class that identifies as anything but cis. Perhaps, I live in a less progressive place or maybe you're in a bit of a liberal arts bubble based on the school you go to.
A college is a terrible place to say is 'in the real world' when referring to how people are acting socially. When they're no longer huddled together in a place where they adjust themselves to belong to a group then they tend to normalize and finish growing up into who they are. Young college kids are unsupervised high schoolers in most senses.
It's like the hardcore feminist college students, the 'all sex is rape' kind. Their intensity tends to taper out and they mellow out when they get into the actual real world. Either that or they become like the girl I posted about who blamed her ineptitude on sexism just the other day. Either that or like the CEO of Yahoo who fired men for being men and is getting sued.
In the real world assuming 99/100 people are cis-gender would be incorrect, the real number would probably be much closer to 99,999/100,000 or an even smaller portion.
People in college who are trans are usually just people who enjoy things that their gender traditionally doesn't. It used to be called being a tomboy or a femme or other more insulting slurs.
fitzydog ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 16:46:22 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Those are insulting slurs?
Jesus Christ what is happening to the thick skin of this world...
It's OK, now one of these people are butthurt downvoting all my recent posts.
It's sad really.
[deleted] ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 19:02:14 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
Marokiii ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 19:04:30 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
the one that matches their gender. like he and she. its regular/normal since based on the best information we have in the USA, 99.42% of the population identifies normally with he or she according to their biology. 99.42% of a population doing something the same way makes that way regular and normal.
[deleted] ยท -3 points ยท Posted at 19:09:47 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
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Marokiii ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:13:23 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
do you mean sexual orientation. because legally your gender and your sex are the same thing. if you mean sexual orientation, that has no impact on general conversation and use of pronouns when talking to anyone.
[deleted] ยท -3 points ยท Posted at 19:15:39 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
Marokiii ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 19:21:36 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
my drivers license and tax form disagree with you to not having a legal sex. for almost all of society, your sex and gender are going to match. this isnt some big consipiracy to lock people into roles, its based on psychology of the sexes and how its shaped society. society and how it is today, is a direct result of our psychology based on our biology.
gender is not a construct of society, society is a construct of gender.
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 19:27:54 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
Marokiii ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:07:47 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
ive always used certified programs to file, and they have always asked if im a mr, ms or mrs. figured that was good enough for gender questions.
also, its on you passport.
your example of for your drivers license, you need a certified doctor to show that you have gone through a gender reassignment surgery to claim you are of a different gender now. the biggest example of legality and gender, is the prison system. legally someone is a certain gender and that dictates which prison or sections of prisons you go to.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:27:30 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
Marokiii ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 20:29:50 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Just because someone wrote something down somewhere doesn't mean anything. You don't have a "legal sex"
except in this case, it does very much matter what someone writes down, and it does mean you have a legal sex. it can be changed, that doesnt mean its not what you are legally. i can legally change my name, that doesnt mean that my name before wasnt legal.
This is a society of adults. We should be able to respect people's wishes as, long as they don't harm us, to the best of our abilities even if those wishes seem a little silly.
Marokiii ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 19:10:29 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
i have never once said dont call them the pronoun they have asked you to, i have said its ridiculous to go and start all conversations with new people by asking them what pronouns they want to be called to make sure i dont offend them. especially if the person wants to be called something else, can just tell me that themselves. i dont have to sort through every single person i meet to find the 1 person in 200, when that 1 person could just identify themselves to me(if they wanted to, or even cared).
the comment i was responding to was basically suggesting that is what people should do anyways, by questioning if there is anything bad about doing it. there is something bad about it, because its unnecessary.
edit: this would also put gender identity at the forefront of the introduction with ever single transgender person i meet, maybe they dont want to have that conversation with ever single person they meet on a daily basis. maybe they would just like to have their sexuality left alone by strangers until they feel like it should be brought up by themselves.
For passing trans people, asking preferred pronouns tends to INDUCE dysphoria, not reduce it.
_Eggs_ ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 21:02:01 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It's just trying too hard and is completely unnecessary. It's straight-up cringe-worthy.
"So I saw this black guy at the store - I'm not racist btw - and he told me..."
"Anyway, my mom was cooking dinner - I'm not sexist btw, she just likes to cook andnotbecauseshe'sawoman - and I noticed that..."
"Oh I met this new girl - or guy, because I don't know how she or he or they identifies/identify or what her or his or their pronouns are - and I think she or he or they is/are pretty cool."
Sometimes it's not worth telling someone or trying to explain new concepts to people. You have enough shit to worry about as a transgender person, sometimes you don't feel like having to explain your gender to the librarian or your neighbor or an old friend or whoever. No one's expecting the entire population to ask every person they meet what their pronouns are, we're just saying it's really not that outrageous. It's one question that can be answered in one sentence. Boom, done.
That does not make it a bad thing that this one individual tried to be considerate by asking. Goddamn, that is not some sort of attack on "99%" of humanity and everyone needs to stop blowing it out of proportion.
Because it's really common for transgender people to be met with physical violence when they tell people what pronouns to use.
Even if you're just a cis person asking another cis person what pronouns you use, it's possible there's a trans or genderqueer person in the room hearing you that feels a little more comfortable now. Asking about gender pronouns is the first step toward fostering a culture where someone feels like they can say "actually I prefer 'she'" without wondering if they'll still have all their teeth by the end of the sentence.
All the otherkin and ridiculous pronoun abuse you hear about on online doesn't really happen in real life with nearly as much frequency as Reddit conservatives and Tumblristas would have you believe. Mainly it's just ordinary people who feel more comfortable using "he" instead of "she."
lmao! looking at a person and seeing their biology and assuming that they're a man or woman based on appearance isn't bigotry. Why would you even think something like that?
I wasn't calling anyone a bigot. The only point I was trying to make is that something that's a cultural norm or tradition doesn't automatically make it right.
Being racist used to be a "pretty normal thing to do"
You made a direct correlation to not asking someone's gender being akin to being a racist. In fact
Just because it's normal doesn't make it right.
You DIRECTLY linked it to racism.
I see that a lot from people defending obscure or abnormal differences in people. It's not okay to liken racism to the natural assumption that a person is a man in a man's body, or a woman in a woman's body.
If you read into his comment you'll understand why I said he did link directly that not asking a person's gender in a conversation to the levels of bigotry involved in racism. He said it outright.
I was not being dense, I was being straightforward in my criticism of the manner used in making his argument.
If young people truly wish to argue in a manner which will reach all peoples they must learn to do so in a way that can be accepted or at least listened to by all peoples. The schism caused by this polar way of argument and has lead to the current state in the US of Trump being supported by all manners of people from bigots to racists to common folk who are frustrated at being evil for not believing everything that liberal media tells them.
If we could have a discussion where we could understand one another and not be at each others throats then maybe we could move forward with a mutual understanding. The first step is to stop calling everyone who's not part of 'you' evil.
MLK Jr. didn't start violent riots, he started peaceful protests, he started conversation, he vented his frustrations in a way that resonated and was understood by many.
That's the difference between today's movements and others. But I honestly think a lot of the ground that many of these movements are based in would crumble under scrutiny. I think a lot of the real problems could finally get addressed, too. Gender inequalities for both sides, racial inequalities for any side that feels it needs it. We could actually discuss these things.
assuming gender is the establishment thing to do, but it's generally more polite to ask someone's gender just in case, if you're someone that cares about that or live in a very socially-open community like a university where you'll find more people with preferred pronouns.
Brikachu ยท 21 points ยท Posted at 16:20:14 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Never once had an issue assuming people's pronouns at the very liberal, small, liberal arts college I went to. The tumblrinas I went to school with made it very clear what gender they were.
Well I go a small liberal liberal arts college myself and have friends and classmates whose pronouns aren't what you could ascertain from appearance alone. And it's not abnormal here to hear students (or even professors on the first day of classes) to ask what your preferred pronoun is during introductions. And this is a normal university; it usually shows up in top 100 or 200 lists of colleges, and there's nothing about it that would particularly attract people of nonbinary genders. just some places are more open and accommodating about this kind of stuff i suppose.
Be polite by making mixed-pronoun people feel slightly more welcome not having to bring it up themselves, while being impolite to the other >99% of people you are now forcing into a discussion about PC terms and transgender identity when they just wanted to talk about the weather. How nice and polite of you.
Nobody's forcing anyone into a discussion of PC terms, you just say that you identify as female or whatever and then you get back to your important discussion of the weather. Obviously you wouldn't ask this to everybody, but if you're at a point where you're already asking what's your name, what's your job, what was/is your college major, you might as well just ask about pronouns if it's something you care about asking.
It's not a huge burden, but it is a burden and you are putting it on the larger part of the population to save the smaller part no real effort. It makes people feel awkward for no reason, unless the idea is to make people feel awkward as a mechanism for change, which is fine but you can't be surprised that people resent it.
It takes a little bit of effort and time, and the beginning of the conversation where things are still volatile. Not a huge deal effort wise but still an unnecessary one. As far as feeling awkward, you don't really get to be the arbitrator of who gets to feel things and why. Clearly from this thread there are plenty of people who feel awkward in this situation.
There is some value in making a trans person feel less awkward by asking, but if they aren't comfortable bringing it up themselves, do they even want to be called out?
The whole point is that you don't want people to feel bad, so you ask for their pronouns, right? So the objective here is "What do I say that causes the least bad feelings?". From that perspective, you cause a lot more bad feelings by asking for pronouns than by not.
And either way you are assuming hundreds of things whether you admit it or not. Are you going to sign "Are you deaf?" before a conversation? Are you going to ask them in Spanish if they speak English? It just doesn't make sense to cover every angle.
What would you do? Get mad at someone for being polite? I'm not someone that usually asks about preferred pronouns but I'd totally do it just to see you get all cranky over something so frivolous.
[deleted] ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 00:08:06 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
[deleted]
Brikachu ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 00:12:38 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Why? Because I find it unnecessary to ask people what gender they are, and instead use my eyes and ears to do so? If that makes me "triggered," so be it, I guess.
[deleted] ยท 16 points ยท Posted at 17:51:32 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
[deleted]
[deleted] ยท -6 points ยท Posted at 18:50:19 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Not necessarily. I have a friend who went by he for their entire life, and i knew them for three years, and then they decided to chance their pronoun to "they" last summer. It's something that can change.
IKSSE3 ยท 19 points ยท Posted at 15:48:50 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It isn't in fact a signal of "batshit tumblr stuff". I can tell you that from experience after having many conversations where someone mentions pronouns early on and never gets brought up again.
I go to a college that is generally very accommodating to people who have non-binary genders or prefer certain pronouns, so often in the introductions to classes the professor will have everyone go in a round and mention their name, major, and preferred pronoun. And I have some friends that will mention that they prefer a certain pronoun if they've been talking with someone long enough, and some will ask someone else just in case.
This has become pretty normal for me, so it's weird to come on reddit and see people being so confused about it all.
Elephaux ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 20:08:31 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I'd nope out of a conversation that started like this, it's just an indication that the I would have some fundamental, most likely irreconcilable differences of opinion with this person.
I'm a big ol' tumblr-hating white man that sincerely believes that for 99% of cases, biological sex and psychological gender are the same bloody thing. If you want to change your appearance to the other gender, cool, but you pick male or female - there are no other options. I will "gender" your based on what I see, if you're not passing, I won't instinctively identify you as your target gender.
But why is this such a big deal to you? Does it really take that much effort to say "they" rather than he or she? You already do it already when you refer to people without specifying a gender ("the future president bought their spouse a cat", for example), why is it such a leap to use "they" when referring to a specific person?
By difficult I mean that I slip up occasionally (particularly with friends who I knew by a certain pronoun and now have to remember to call them differently now) but I've gotten better.
Elephaux ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 21:13:03 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I'm in the vast majority of people that would experience some distaste at the usage of the phrase "assuming your gender". I have nothing against trans people, but the simple fact is that I am extremely unlikely to interact with them IRL because of where I live and the circles I run in.
I would happily use a gender-neutral pronoun if someone was very very very androgenous-looking or I hadn't met them and they had a gender-neutral first name, but that's not the issue. The question you asked was what is the problem with someone asking what pronouns you prefer, and I gave my answer.
I don't like my speech being policed. If I met someone and seemed to get on, but it turned out they were a massive racist or homophobe, I would not want to be their friend because I am neither of those things. If I met someone that was, for lack of a better word, an SJW, I would not want anything to do with them. Maybe they're a great person, but we would disagree on too many things that are important to me.
But by asking for your pronoun, the opposite of "speech policing" is occurring. you're being asked for the pronoun that you prefer, and they want to accommodate you for it.
Elephaux ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 21:42:18 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I'm a 6'2" dude with a beard. No one is ever going to going to think I'm not a man. It's not a problem I'll ever encounter.
I don't know any transgender people, none of my friends or my girlfriend's friends or my clients know any transgender people. If I come across any, I'll be sure to try and guess what they want to be called. It's usually pretty obvious.
If I came across someone "non-binary", I would, 100% truthfully, tell them to get a grip, stop living in fantasy land, ask them if they didn't get enough attention as a child, and tell them to pick: he/she/it.
Real talk here:
Personally, if I was going M2F, and people kept asking what my pronouns were, I'd be pretty fucking pissed off that no one is paying attention to how I'm trying to present. Isn't drawing attention to the ambiguity just as problematic? Like, I know you're obviously a dude trying to become a woman, and life must be pretty hard anyway, but instead of just noticing and moving on, I'll deliberately draw attention to the subject.
Since when did the teenagers that cried "don't label me!" become so bloody obsessed with labels?
If you look and dress as a male, you are a 'he'. If you look and dress as a female, you are a 'she'. Anything else is on the other side of the line that marks the lunatic area. Also called "I identify as 'tin can of worms', please use 'it'" area. The dude looking like Arnold Schwarzenegger running around 'Identifying' as a she is just pure attention grab bullshit.
Clothing is a bit of an absurd choice to determine gender with. Plenty of women wear men's clothes, and there are lots of men who dress in a way that gets assumed as feminine (metrosexual is what I guess it's called.)
OP's friend was just trying to be polite, it's nothing to get so anal about.
What? No, clothing is a good indicator in the vast majority of cases.
Rolten ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:32:42 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Nah, OP's friend is the classic example of people who find the whole trans thing way too important and find standing up for it anally a big part of who they are.
Transexuals are really fucking rare. People are a he or a she defined by how they look, unless they tell you otherwise. That might be a tiny inconvenience for them, but it's not up to the rest of the world to anally accommodate 0.01% (or less) of the population.
In the same way, I'm going to continue making penis sculptures out of snow / clapping my hands instead of using jazz hands / spreading my legs if that's comfortable and there's enough room / wearing my hair any way I want / etc. It is not up to the world to accommodate those unique few that are different if the inconvenience is not excessive or unreasonable.
You mean a reality based view? A reality where society doesnt have to pander to a tiny portion of the population because someones feefees could be hurt?
[deleted] ยท 25 points ยท Posted at 17:54:25 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
Not all transgendered people are thin skinned attention whores. Im not discriminating against transgenderd people. Im just not pandering to the select few that are making up pronouns for attention and drama. Dont assume all transgendered people are this pedantic.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:57:17 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
it's always weird to me when people defend this idea and say it's based in reality, but they have to ignore countless psychiatric and medical professionals who disagree with them to do it.
Surely the guy yelling on the internet knows more about what's real than the people who study this sort of thing professionally, right?
You don't have to be a heart surgeon to know that blood carries oxygen, do you?
Nope, and I don't need to be a psychologist to know that when my friend prefers to be referred to by a certain pronoun, it is polite to refer to them by that pronoun.
I think the whole point of reality is that there is only one of them. Also, clearly not everybody thinks the same as me. You for example.
[deleted] ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 02:37:03 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I think the whole point of reality is that there is only one of them
That hasn't been true since monarchism. But I understand why it would make you feel safe to pretend there is just one reality. In some sense there really is just one: yours! After all, I might not even exist. These are just words on your computer, right?
Would you do the same to a brown skinned person and assume they were Mexican? Even though they may be South American or Spanish or East-Indian or Middle Eastern? Even though they are a tiny portion of the population? It's just called common decency.
I don't have a problem with what ever that makes their clock tick. What I have a problem with, is that some in that small minority wants to turn our language into a cesspool of constructs because 'feelings'.
Im a white straight male, but I feel feminine today, so please refer to me as lesbian. Also I find white offensive, I am coconut coloured! So you better refer to me as a feminine lesbian coconut male and you better use 'She' because you are standing in my safe space!
When I posted originally he was quite highly upvoted. It kinda swung the other way when somebody gave me gold. Thanks for that by the way. Anyways, you can see what i mean with a lot of the other comment in the thread.
Subvs ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 21:16:18 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
this is the most factual comment ever posted on this site
[deleted] ยท -8 points ยท Posted at 17:56:40 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Numbuh7 ยท -4 points ยท Posted at 15:56:33 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
That's ok to say for people who are clearly one of the other, but say you're transitioning, and you look "male bodied" but are wearing makeup and have long hair; it's a fair-question, they might be wearing the makeup to hide spots of tonlook more feminine. Why is it so bad to ask and try to make someone more comfortable when being spoke to?
Kilane ยท 28 points ยท Posted at 16:02:07 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Do you think that makes someone more comfortable when you are speaking to them? People tend to not use gendered pronouns when talking to someone so the only result is to make it awkward and put someone on the spot.
Numbuh7 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 16:06:08 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It would make me more comfortable to know someone was referring to me correctly, personally. But I do understand what you mean, in that in the current conversation where you are asked, it may be awkward, but in the long run I'd prefer someone to be using the correct pronouns to refer to me.
laccro ยท 12 points ยท Posted at 16:59:41 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Tell me after I know you pretty well if I say it wrong. If I mistakenly call you "he", politely say "Hey, I just want you to know that I actually prefer to go by 'she'!"
And I'll make an effort to correct my speech. Simple as that. But I'd rather not know in the first few minutes of meeting you because I really don't care at that point. You're just a person until I get to know you anyways, no matter what gender you choose to be, I just care how you act and what you're interests are, etc
I didn't, the planet did and they put in the dictionary.
he
hiห/Submit
pronoun
1.
used to refer to a man, boy, or male animal previously mentioned or easily identified.
noun
1.
a male; a man.
male
meษชl/Submit
adjective
1.
of or denoting the sex that produces gametes, especially spermatozoa, with which a female may be fertilized or inseminated to produce offspring.
First of all, the "world" doesn't use the same language or dictionary throughout. Other languages throughout history have had different ideas about gender imbeded in them. Furthermore language is constantly evolving, even over short periods of time.
Second, you forgot to link to the definition of "they" which can refer to a single person of unspecified gender and has been used that way in many languages for many years.
'Furthermore language is constantly evolving, even over short periods of time.'
Sure it does, but that doesn't mean I can't advocate for a different direction than what you want. Only time will tell who "wins" by what society adopt. Currently 'He/She' is linked to biological sex that is the dominant usage.
I mean, you can do that, but it's not going to make transgendered people go away, so it's a bit of a losing fight. But yeah, I guess we'll "see who wins."
Haha, I made you say something different. Quit getting mad.
Anyway, I find it funny that you're complaining about safe spaces while championing a bubble of unchangeable language just because you don't want to respect a small part of the population.
Having me saying something different is success for you? You have low goals, you should get that checked out.
Changing everyday speech to cater to owl kin is just ridiculous. Why do you think owl kin deserves respect, what have those owls done to get that kind of respect?
Wait, hold on. Let's pretend this is about skin color, which works nicely. You see a brown skinned person, you look at them and you think Mexican, ahh his name is Juan, obviously Mexican. So you ask "Hey man, I love mexican food! Trump's an ass right?" Then he goes "Dude I'm Columbian." Now you look like an idiot for assuming he was Mexican. And a racist for not asking before assuming. Same thing with genders. Easy peasy. Even though there's not a whole lot of Colombianos in the US, it's still polite not to call them all Mexicans.
RyanB_ ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 16:20:40 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Literally how does it affect you at all.
Also what defines looking and dressing as a male/female changes constantly depending on time and location.
He and She have definitions, so yes, it does literally affect me.
he
hiห/Submit
pronoun
1.
used to refer to a man, boy, or male animal previously mentioned or easily identified.
"everyone liked my fatherโhe was the perfect gentleman"
any person (in modern use, now chiefly replaced by โanyoneโ or โthe personโ: see usage note below).
"he who is silent consents"
WEST INDIAN
him or his.
"don't tell he nothing more"
noun
noun: he; plural noun: hes
1.
a male; a man.
she
สiห/Submit
pronoun
1.
used to refer to a woman, girl, or female animal previously mentioned or easily identified.
"my sister told me that she was not happy"
used to refer to a person or animal of unspecified sex.
"only include your child if you know she won't distract you"
any female person.
"she who rocks the cradle rules the world"
WEST INDIAN
her or hers.
"give she lavender oil"
AUSTRALIAN/NZ
it (used to refer to something not usually regarded as female).
"reckon some decent weather and she'll be right"
noun
noun: she; plural noun: shes
1.
a female; a woman.
RyanB_ ยท 9 points ยท Posted at 17:31:35 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
How does this show it affects your life at all?
Like if someone says "hey I'd prefer you refer to me using they/them, please". How would doing so have any bearing on your life.
Or maybe I do and made a choice not to, because I find sarcasm offensive. Maybe we should ban that too, because it tends to hurt people. Since you're fine with changing stuff because of 'feelings' regardless of how ridiculousness something is ,we might just go all out while we are at it.
Haha, why are you having a meltdown? Like, do you really believe what you just said is a rational comparison? I mean you probably don't, considering you think you're fighting some battle against oppression, but just take a moment and consider how ridiculous you are.
Maybe it hurts my grumpy old guy identity to pander to ridiculousness? See the guy posting about the girl wanting to be referred to owl/owl's/owlself. Why is her more valid than my identity?
RyanB_ ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 18:29:06 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
If youre idea of "pandering to ridiculousness" is being a decent person and respecting other people maybe your identity could use some work.
Again I ask, how does using the pronouns someone asks you to use in reference to them impact your life at all?
[deleted] ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 19:06:16 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Descriptions doesn't do it for me, since it is just a representation of what you see (Not claiming you're sick or anything, but to illustrate my point, asking an anorexic to describe themselve, they would say fat. Descriptions are in the eye of the beholder). Need a picture.
[deleted] ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 19:53:19 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Well, having a hard time picturing cargo shorts, but I would use she. If you caught me off guard, I instinctually properly would say He unless your are on the feminine side with your voice/body language.
Alirius ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 19:50:33 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I call it the 'I sexually identify as an apache-helicopter' area.
I have no clue if that was the truth in OP's specific case (assuming OP isn't just making up a funny caption to relate to that gif), but all instances IRL where I've heard people request or ask for someone else's preferred pronouns have never been because of assumptions, but just being polite while coming from someone who is very sensitive towards pronouns.
I think you misunderstood what i was going for here, i was simply pointing out how fucking absurd a statement this is to be uttered in any way seriously.
Oh okay. Just because it's a new concept to you doesn't mean it's absurd. Maybe insult's the wrong word. It can make someone uncomfortable to not be referred to by their preferred pronoun. Like how would you feel if someone came up to you and started referring to you as "she" constantly?
Because evil SJWs are taking our free speech with their PC-ness, and being a considerate human being (even if it might be a little unneeded in some cases) is bad.
"I dunno why that's so bad. They just want to be sure that they don't insult you by assuming your gender. You just say "I like he!" and then you keep talking about whatever other stupid shit you were discussing."
Is the pc thing to say.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:18:53 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
genders are here to be assumed, you don't look in everyones pants to decide if they are man or woman, you use their secondary characteristics to decide.
if anyone gets upset by this they deserve to be laughed at and ridiculed
OP is the one who told me that she refers to herself with feminine pronouns.
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 16:03:24 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Sir to you!
n35 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 18:11:55 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
So for those living under a rock, what the hell is a gender pronoun? Or an sjw?
Cheveyo ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 00:18:43 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
How far down this rabbit hole do you want to go?
It isn't something that I can explained easily. For example, I can say that SJWs are people who are perpetually offended. They create new genders every other week and become infuriated when nobody knows what to make of them.
However, that's only scratching the surface. Maybe these will explain things, or at least entertain:
SJW: Social justice warrior. Aka some one who will get offended for you over something that usually has no effect on you or bothers you in any way what so ever.
Ryugi ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 22:13:44 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
If there was any question to that, its respectful... But if you feel you've never exhibited any signs it can be a bit awkward. I mean, just be honest as you are comfortable with. They probably are not going to judge you.
teeno731 ยท 32 points ยท Posted at 17:08:59 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
MRW I show kindness to a potentially genderqueer friend and they dislike me for it...
Yup. Kindness would be correcting yourself if they inform you that they prefer to be referred to differently. People shouldn't be expected to ask that question. Waste of time
I'm not saying the person asking expects others to ask that, I'm just saying that most people you ask will answer exactly as you expect they will. By a vast majority, to the point where it's easier to just make the assumption and correct yourself if they offer a preference. I doubt they'll be offended.
teeno731 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 02:42:20 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Yeah I somewhat agree, it's not something I would ask, but I would at least not berate someone for asking me that when others would very much appreciate it.
teeno731 ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 03:48:06 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Holy shit, I stand corrected. I think, however, that you're somewhat missing the point; that's a fetish, and you can't compare a fetish to gender dysphoria in the slightest.
[deleted] ยท 32 points ยท Posted at 15:22:19 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
[deleted]
[deleted] ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 15:45:09 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Look her dead in the eye and let her know in the most earnest way.
I sexually Identify as an Attack Helicopter. Ever since I was a boy I dreamed of soaring over the oilfields dropping hot sticky loads on disgusting foreigners. People say to me that a person being a helicopter is Impossible and Iโm fucking retarded but I donโt care, Iโm beautiful. Iโm having a plastic surgeon install rotary blades, 30 mm cannons and AMG-114 Hellfire missiles on my body. From now on I want you guys to call me โApacheโ and respect my right to kill from above and kill needlessly. If you canโt accept me youโre a heliphobe and need to check your vehicle privilege. Thank you for being so understanding.
Some people are special snowflakes. The education system and parents told them what they are doing is fine and now people are trying to claim there are infinite genders. Its something really.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:40:28 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I have three boys. Should I be inquiring about their pronoun?
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 02:15:58 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
No, as long as they all identify as men. If they were to come out as transgender they'd probably tell you what pronouns they wish to be referred to with.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 00:43:14 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Whew. Common Core math is hard enough for me to learn
In an effort to be more accepting of people who identify as a gender different from their biological sex, a lot of people have taken to asking someone's pronoun when you first meet someone. This website has a pretty in depth explanation of the whole concept. https://www.genderspectrum.org/quick-links/understanding-gender/
[deleted] ยท -2 points ยท Posted at 02:15:30 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
That website is biased cancer that promotes mutilation as treatment for a mental illness. Lul
Have fun in your tiny, dusty little world where things are objectively wrong if they seem odd to you and everyone is an idiot but you.
gerroovy ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 03:20:04 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I'm using this if I ever need to on one of my regular customers at work who has a gender-neutral name. So far, it's not been necessary and maybe never will be, but it does seem a semi-polite, PC way to ask, if I ever need to.
Asking for a good friends pronouns would seem a bit off, but how could making someone more comfortable, and using pronouns they align with be a bad thing?
AJSwifty ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 20:27:55 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Sorry but you can't complain about people these days being overly sensitive or whatever when you're literally posting gifs and being mad about a question somebody asked so they can make you more comfortable that you could've answered with a single word. It's not a big deal, don't be such a baby
TIL politely excusing yourself is being mad. Given how you resorted to name calling and overreacting, is it any wonder why people try to avoid your types?
Arketan ยท 12 points ยท Posted at 19:39:38 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Mad enough to make a post on Reddit about how "ridiculous" their friend was being
EFG ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 20:53:14 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
But that shit is ridiculous. Unless they gave some kind of indication that they identify as something else, it's literally not the friend's business to bring it up. It's callous and can do more harm than good, especially to someone that doesn't have all that much self-confidence. This whole pronoun thing is out of control, and personally, I would never bring that shit up unless directed.
Arketan ยท -2 points ยท Posted at 23:39:20 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I wouldn't call it ridiculous, personally I wouldn't ask someone their pronouns cause it could put someone in an awkward situation where they don't want to misgender themselves but may not be comfortable enough to out themselves to the asker, like I wouldn't ask someone their pronouns and if I wasn't sure I would use "they" until told otherwise but at the end of the day it's just people being over cautious and it's easy to brush off with "aw well these days you never know etc ect" if the person asked was offended or upset.
If you're upset enough by a completely harmless question to go home and post about how awful people trying to make others comfortable is, avoid me as much as possible please. PLEASE
Alirius ยท 9 points ยท Posted at 19:57:34 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It's not a harmless question. If someone asked me what I identified as I would be offended. I feel like it's pretty clear that I'm a guy.
You're reading a lot of hostility from nothing, you know. There's no reason to take your frustrations with others out on OP. You're really reaching here.
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 19:45:58 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You literally just proved him right, dumbass turd.
gets butthurt over a gif on the internet
tells others not to be a baby
lmao right? you could have literally just said "he" or "she" and moved on. everyone is acting like just because some people ask this question, everyone is expected to ask it.
[deleted] ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 21:40:08 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't generally the only time you use gender pronouns when you're talking about someone but they're not there
Edit:not in a band
Tancrad ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 22:24:10 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Nah. I think, for instance, if you haven't seen someone in a decade or so, and they are in with this new fad of being a star. They might feel the need to update you. So when you talk to your friends you dont fuck up stars pronouns.
You: wow so do you identify as a white dwarf or a red giant
Them:uh...
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 03:54:20 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Here's my rule: If I know they identify as male or female, I will call them he or she. If I don't know or they don't identify, I'll use singular they, which is acceptable in the english language.
I should know better than to read things that make me feel shitty about myself, but it's hard to be reminded how common and accepted it still is to shit all over trans people.
We've made a lot of progress these past couple of years, but it's very apparent we're still not there yet.
Other Trans people, do NOT READ THE COMMENTS. Stop now. It gets so much worse the lower you go.
Ah gotcha. Yeah that sort of class I can understand the leading with that question. In my experience those classes thrive on discussion and it's important to establish a rapport and open/judgement free feeling environment so everyone will participate.
she says somethings that make me want to get up and walk out.
I understand that too. Had several social culture classes I was required to take and sometimes the professor got a little too vocal about her own opinions rather than stimulating discussion.
Smorlock ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 18:31:04 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Isn't the whole idea of post-secondary school to be confronted with ideas that don't jive with your own though? If you walk out of a class because you don't like your teachers' opinions, you clearly don't care about "stimulating" anything.
meppsman ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 19:10:24 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I never have walked out. But there are some teachers who speak their opinions as facts, or use ridiculous things like a fousey tube video (yes that actually happened in a class of mine) that just make me face palm. I even had one teacher state her opinion, a student replied to it with his own opinion and supported it with examples and the teacher just said no that's not true with no further explanation. That's the kind of thing I don't like that makes me want to walk out.
meppsman ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 17:58:49 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Yeah it's a writing intensive course which is required for me to graduate. I figured I'd take my writing intensive course in something that could be interesting. I like the class as a whole, but some days I just check out and wish I wasn't there.
After watching Creep, I can't see this guy in a normal way
dlang17 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 00:45:25 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I give no fucks in the first place, but I tend to refer to people with the neutral. They, their, them. If they get mad from that then fuck'em, couldn't care less.
Aro769 ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 17:00:02 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Did you just assume your old friend's gender?
mjigs ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:10:07 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I dont care what a hell they want to be refered as, theres only female, male and genderless, the rest are just pure bs invented by some snowflakes that want attention. Also what kind of conversation starter is that? And who uses pronouns while talking to someone, unless you're talking about them to another person, pronouns arent in the convo.
Amnsia ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 22:28:48 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Genderless?
mjigs ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 22:44:46 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You know, that doesnt identifies with female or male.
Amnsia ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 22:54:37 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
What a problem to have. If they're in a public place and they need the toilet, which one do they go in?
mjigs ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 21:01:04 on October 25, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Well, there's always the handicap option, there are everywhere.
Amnsia ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 21:49:15 on October 25, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Woahhhhh you can't do that, just using a those toilets without having a handicap is just wrong. More wrong than someone using the toilets they feel uncomfortable in ffs.
Huh, somebody was kind enough to ask something they feel is important to ask? Weird. God forbid, right? Why act like an adult and return the kindness by simply answering the question when you could be an edgelord and fedora tip your way from the scene.
ITT: people unwilling to accept the evolving concepts of gender in our modern society. :\
Kurtonio ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:12:50 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Are people really like this? I mean I've heard jokes in the media and online but I always assume it was a exaggeration of real life. Along the same lines as someone slipping on a banana peel.
My needed dose of sanity for today. It's amazing the regressives never entertain the thought that they might be hurting the cause they're trying to serve by being over sensitive and pedantic.
joketube ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 07:10:50 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Fucking special snowflakes. "I'm not a boy" well your chromosomes say otherwise kid!
I don't think he was offended, just really weirded out. I would be if someone asked me that. That's not a normal, socially established thing to do. I definitely won't be hanging out with someone that would ask me how I like to be referred to. Am I a bad person for that? I should probably just listen to what you have to say and do what you think others should do instead.
I wouldn't say it necessarily makes you a bad person, but it's an extremely shallow reason to stop hanging out with someone. Sure, it's still a pretty weird question in your "average" social situation, but it's a perfectly legitimate question to ask for a growing number of people. Just people that question was asked is not an indicator that you otherwise won't get along.
I feel like that would actually be a big indicator. A statement like that reflects a lot about a person and their own personal viewpoints, whether they want to admit it or not. I get the point you're trying to make, but I disagree entirely.
I think it reveals a very liberally-minded person who is sensitive to the rights and feelings of transgendered people. If that means you automatically can't hang out, that's unfortunate
I don't believe anyone mentioned that this was the first someone said
indrion ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 19:48:54 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Maybe not but if they're the type of person to ask they're also probably gonna get retarded levels of offended by anything. Such as my use of retarded.
Do you think a transgender person having gender on their mind all the time might have to do with knowing people are gonna react like you are when they bring up their gender, so that they have to choose between putting up with everyone calling them the wrong thing or having an awkward conversation where people decide they suck for beinging it up?
A person can be very liberally-minded without feeling the need to preface a conversation with that. If they say that to start every conversation with anyone who they are unsure of their preference, then gender, gender terms, and very probably other "new wave" societal issues are going to come first and foremost in both that individual's head and in the following conversation.
If someone needs to know how I identify first in order to have a conversation, then they're clearly not primarily worried about the content of the conversation. It seems to me to be more of a way to determine if people are either progressive enough for that person, or as an advertisement to show how progressive they are. I could never imagine a way in which my gender identity alters the quality or content of my conversations with anyone, and I expect the same from my peers.
In addition to this, for those that do identify differently than the traditional roles, please don't get huffy-puffy or snobby or dejected if people do mistakenly call you the wrong pronoun. Just casually explain to them what you go by; there's no need to get up in arms because someone accidentally called you by, what you consider to be, the wrong pronoun. If whoever made the mistake is worth talking to, they'll understand and continue as if it never happened. If they do make a fuss over it, fuck em, they're assholes anyways.
I'm confused because I'm defending neither starting the conversation with this question, nor justifying immediately getting huffy if you're called the wrong thing. What I do have a problem is being allergic to the question being asked at all.
Where did I say it shouldn't be asked at all? There's a time and place for every question. There are entire organizations devoted to asking that exact question, as there well should be. But asking in casual conversation just means your mind is elsewhere.
In your original comment you only mentioned being asked that question, not that you would be asked that question to begin a conversation. You say the question has no place in casual conversation, I disagree.
I realize you disagree: every point you've made so far have been in opposition to mine. I get the idea of being tolerant to that kind of question, but it would also be silly to assume that everyone will expect that kind of question, and it would also be silly to assume that most people will continue their conversations (current or in the future) with you after asking that question.
I mean, don't get me wrong, I see where you're coming from. I would most likely be taken aback if I was asked that question. However, I would hope it would not be enough for me to treat that individual as casually as if they asked me what town I grew up in. So perhaps "extremely" shallow was too harsh a phrase, but I do believe a person shouldn't be judged for asking.
Fyzzle ยท 14 points ยท Posted at 15:46:43 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It's the tip of the iceberg, I'm not going to tiptoe around a conversation waiting for the landmine of being offended.
fitzydog ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 16:52:10 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
If someone is so easily offended that you have to beat around a fucking bush, maybe they need to grow some thicker skin.
ksaid1 ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 15:51:10 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Maybe I'm weird, but I've never felt the need to tiptoe around a conversation. Like what issues are you gonna talk about with an old friend that would offend them?
If you base your first impression on a stereotype, that's on you, not them
Fyzzle ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 17:22:37 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I'm not sure you're using stereotype right, I'm judging people based on actions. I don't have the time to get to know even a small fraction of the people I meet to the degree you think is appropriate.
If we have to negotiate terms on how to address each other you'd better be royalty, or we're done before we start.
I doubt they would be, and nor would I, so everything's fine right? So I don't understand the point you're trying to make with this comment, other than trying to be super snarky, and it really wasn't even that good of a snarky comment in the first place.
ccfccc ยท -4 points ยท Posted at 16:17:12 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I definitely won't be hanging out with someone that would ask me how I like to be referred to.
If an old friend asked you that out of the blue, it's obvious they are transitioning and are looking for a way to discuss that. It's a made-up scenario anyways.
Trans people are still legally discriminated against in a lot of states. They attempt suicide ten times as often as the general population. They're far more likely to be removed from their families, and they have a more difficult time finding jobs.
If this girl makes a small gesture of inclusiveness part of my everyday life, at literally no cost to her, well I just don't find that to be a terrible thing.
It sounds like OP is the one who couldn't handle it.
Also who said you have to ask anybody? I'm just saying it's silly to use "she asked my pronouns" as a litmus test for friendship. Do whatever you like, pal.
Why don't you post this to r/srs where you can normalize weird behavior with the rest of the screeching harpies.
Seriously. Accommodating a fraction of 1% of the population while alienating the other 99.9% is just absurd.
Why don't you make sure the environment is ideal for people with tuberculosis, you gotta make sure everyone feels comfortable.
People might have synesthasia, better not have any music or bright colors at your party!
Vegans might be in the room, better make sure your fridge has no animal products in it!
Someone that may come to your house someday might have an allergy!
No peanuts, eggs or dairy is in your house, right? Ever, right?
Better not have any animals, someone could be allergic or afraid of your dog. Better change your lifestyle and accommodate someone that may or may not come over at some point.
Got to make sure to get all of that sweet, sweet inclusiveness.
Because trans people are an exclusive group, not an inclusive group. They tend to criticize others who don't believe as they do. They tend to paint those who don't believe trans-genderism is as wide-spread as they claim it to be as bigots on par with racists.
I don't think it assumes you are transgender or aren't transgender. I guess I just see it as a pretty innocent way for the person asking to mention they are transgender and would prefer certain pronouns. You may see it differently.
Cacame ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 17:40:44 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I'd fucking walk away from them, too. That's a terrible analogy.
The point is, that's not a normal way to begin a conversation. If you are unwilling to adapt to common social situations, and act like a fucking weirdo; you're going to be treated as such.
TerryNL ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 18:38:56 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
Tbh that sounds like something that'd end up in /r/iamverysmart
That is a pretty big assumption to make, that a person if being excluded to have to make a preemptive attempt at inclusion.... "Hey Jill, you probably don't fit into this crowd, so what can I do to make you feel more included?"
Let's see, who deserves to die a lonely unicorn - the person who cares deeply about the gender identity of others, or the person who thinks that that person deserves to die a lonely unicorn?
She's basically implying he looks like a girl and is transitioning mtf, which is insulting to a cis guy.
She's a crazy tumblrina who thinks everyone is either genderqueer or trans. Anyone who starts a conversation like this is really awkward and spends way too much time on tumblr.
I don't think the friend was implying that OP looks like a girl. There's a good chance they ask most people this question, whether they look androgynous or not.
I don't want rules to a light discussion I'm having with an old friend. If it takes that much of a commitment I'll go find someone I can relax and be myself around
I hate how all the reactiongifs posts have one wannabe funny title here and another one on imgur when opening the link.
tonybaby ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 00:28:10 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Even if you don't actually title your imgur upload, they'll still scrape a title from reddit if it's been posted or crossposted by OP or anyone, I have some I've never titled and only used as reactions in threads that have some weird titles
How ever the fuck people like you know how to put on shoes in the morning astounds me. The logical fallacies you use blow my god damn mind.
I literally give you an example to examine and you come back with "Oh durr, I gess u dnt have a pint tu maek"
Get bent fucking retard lol
dltn_put ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 04:28:45 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You didnt even explain yourself though. You just said "look at tumblr". Do you realize how vague that is?
Carp8DM ยท -4 points ยท Posted at 20:25:41 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You're being a dick to your friend.
The situation is not about some random douche you ran into at a party.
The scenario is that it's an old friend you know. So you're just gonna be a dick to your old friend because he has a thought process that is different than yours?
I stand by the I call you what you look like clause.
Nothing will change that. Unless you are legally something other than what you are, you are not getting a different pronoun from me. You are he or she. That is it. End of discussion.
If you make reference to the nonsense that spouts on a 1% populated blog, you will be ignored and remain either a he or she until you are legally and have confirmed paperwork to have your chosen gender changed. Otherwise, you have a dick: he; you have a cunt: she.
That is it, and it has worked great because people who argue against it are absolutely not worth your time.
Effeminate men exist, why would that change at all? I know you're attempting a broad generalization and that is fine, you have no inclination to agree with me; but using a poor example is unacceptable.
It's not a poor example, I'm just pointing out your flawed logic. What I'm asking is this: Since I look like a dude but I have a cunt, what would you call me?
Are you saying the entire trans community is not worth anyone's time?
I'm saying most people who think they are trans are going through a phase. And that until they have the paperwork to prove they're not just bullshitting and have taken steps toward "trans"formation, heh, then there is nothing to discuss nor argue.
Tumblr didn't "invent" the concept of gender pronouns. They twisted it into a bad light with name-calling and general tumblr cattiness, but gender pronouns are a legitimate thing and should be respected.
Leporad ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 18:42:56 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
she
Is this type of issue this a universally female thing?
I'm having a very hard time understanding why this is something to get upset about? My god, since when is trying to be considerate anger inducing?
Geezus, the only good thing about this thread is the fact that I now know I can piss off so many people by asking them their preferred gender. I may have to start asking this more often.
At my work I'm required to enter people's genders and I always ask it no matter what. It's almost 2016 and just because you resemble a female doesn't necessarily mean you are one. Sometimes I get funny looks from people but that's about it.
Bunch of transphobia in this thread. No, the concept of gender pronouns was not invented by so-called "tumblrinas" (although the perception of it has been twisted badly by the tumblr community), and gender is not the same as biological sex.
Jesus Christ crucified, people. Get over yourselves!
But 'he' and 'she' is! It is right there in the fucking dictionary. He is male, she is a female. Male is 'A male (โ) organism is the physiological sex that produces sperm.' and female is 'Female (โ) is the sex of an organism, or a part of an organism, that produces non-mobile ova (egg cells).'
Jesus Christ crucified, people. Get over yourselves!
Gender is the range of characteristics pertaining to, and differentiating between, masculinity and femininity. Depending on the context, these characteristics may include biological sex (i.e. the state of being male, female or intersex), sex-based social structures (including gender roles and other social roles), or gender identity.[1][2][3] Some cultures have specific gender roles that can be considered distinct from male and female, such as the hijra (chhaka) of India and Pakistan.
So while gender in various cultures and societies may have reference to biological sex, they are not entirely synonymous.
Free Oxford Journal published study about gender dysphoria and the brain: Here.
EVEN MORE:
Globally, communities interpret biological differences between men and women to create a set of social expectations that define the behaviors that are "appropriate" for men and women and determine womenโs and menโs different access to rights, resources, power in society and health behaviors.
Citation: Galdas, P. M.; Johnson, J. L.; Percy, M. E.; Ratner, P. A. (2010). "Help seeking for cardiac symptoms: Beyond the masculineโfeminine binary". Social Science & Medicine. 71: 18โ24. doi:10.1016/j.socscimed.2010.03.006. PMID 20398989
The World Health Organization defines gender as the result of socially constructed ideas about the behavior, actions, and roles a particular sex performs. The beliefs, values and attitude taken up and exhibited by them is as per the agreeable norms of the society and the personal opinions of the person is not taken into the primary consideration of assignment of gender and imposition of gender roles as per the assigned gender.
In the FDA reversed its position and began using sex as the biological classification and gender as "a person's self representation as male or female, or how that person is responded to by social institutions based on the individual's gender presentation."
Alirius ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:14:52 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It does me harm if she can't notice I'm a guy.
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 21:11:25 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Why?
Alirius ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 23:07:39 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Because I look like a guy and act like a guy.
If it quacks like a duck and straddles like a duck, it's a fucking duck.
Sykotik ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 22:07:47 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Why does he need to explain his taking offense to you? Can't you just accept that it is offensive to some people? Why can't you be more tolerant of his personal feelings on the subject?
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 04:24:50 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
People are entirely welcome to their personal feelings, but unless you can justify them, you probably shouldn't let them colour the way you treat others. For instance, any kind of illegal drug use makes me uncomfortable, but on a rational level I can't justify that discomfort so I shut up about it when I'm around drug users.
Alirius ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 23:06:44 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Nice, using their own weapons against them.
Sykotik ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:08:49 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It's so fucking transparent and obviously retarded. I can't believe anyone gets caught up in it in the first place.
Hawful ยท -7 points ยท Posted at 17:37:12 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I'm not sure I understand the issue here? Are you upset that she didn't assume your gender? That's even stupider than people being upset about being incorrectly labeled.
Just tell her "male" and get over it. It really isn't a big deal that she wants to be considerate of other people's identities.
As a trans person, that's really nice and flattering. You're just being an ass by assuming everyone is cis when you're friend is going out of her way to be respectful.
I'm scientifically wrong? You're either XX or XY, not ZW or fucking VJ. You either carry sperm or carry eggs, you can't change that and it's retarded to think other wise.
We can talk about how Gender Dysphoria has been in the psych textbooks for years, how it's not even considered a negative diagnosis anymore, and how that most academics are looking at gender as an entirely separate thing from biological sex at this point. However, I have a feeling you'd rather masturbate over this idea of "You not being how I see reality makes me think you're impure" concept rather than actually grow as a human being.
Multiple cases have shown fully developed sex organs at birth, and are often forcibly treated as one gender or another at birth, which is bullshit in itself.
XX, XY are typical Natal assignments- but it is definitely a known piece in the scientific world that there are people born as XXY or other combinations due to genetic mutation, and that's where the biological argument falls short.
hailunix ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 23:01:41 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Doesn't X and Y determine sex with other factors possibly determining gender? You'd think that if the gender dysphoria was chromosomal it'd have more recognition than it does. What about gender non conforming, is that biological somehow?
We honestly don't know why gender dysphoria shows up. We do know that people who identify as binary genders have closer neurology to their identified gender rather than their natal gender.
So your friend cares about you enough to want to be careful not to hurt you. Good thing you got out of that situation, surely something as horrible as asking a simple question will only lead to trouble.
[deleted] ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 18:48:57 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
He, she, it.
These are the only 3 you need until given a specific pronoun by a person. Just like you call someone "hey you" until they tell you their name.
zowzow ยท -13 points ยท Posted at 16:52:12 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
The only time I care about other people and their genders is when a situation like this happens... trust me it happens more than you'd think.
Lets just say I'm buying something from the grocery store and have a casual conversation with an undisclosed individual.
Me: "I wonder if I should buy the family sized cereal or the normal size."
Them: "Buy the family size, its a dollar more for twice as much."
Me: "Thanks man, I think I'll do that."
Them: "Did you just assume my gender."
Me: "Well, no, not really. It was a general term involved in my thanking of you for your insight on which product to purchase."
Them: " Just because I resemble a man and sound like a man does not make me a man."
Me: "Alright, sorry for agitating you. If you're a stranger, look, and sound like a man, its generally safe to assume you are. I didn't mean to be rude but please understand where I am coming from."
Them: "Well that's the last time I help someone at the grocery store."
Me: "Well, OK. Thanks for the help with the cereal anyway."
This is pretty bland but I usually get shit for "assuming" genders when I don't even know these people or care. I'm generally a more outgoing person but when stuff like this happens it makes me want to recede into myself and not talk to others out of fear I will get assaulted with something I frankly couldn't give two shits about. I'm sure this is hard for people to deal with transitions, ridicule from others, and internal issues, but please don't take it out on the guy who didn't even mean to upset you or know why you're upset at him in the first place. People think those memes don't happen in real like, they do.
FYI: Some older folk don't even understand this whole gender thing, I've tried explaining some of it to elder people I talk to in my community and most haven't even heard about it or can't even begin to fathom what this is. Not because they are against such a thing, more it is so abstract to them, the fact of being able to choose to be a man or woman baffles them. I live in northern Cali so i know I'm not in some conservative area.
Saved comment
Kerbologna ยท 1460 points ยท Posted at 14:47:18 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I need to return some videotapes.
SkylarMayFire ยท 96 points ยท Posted at 18:21:57 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Look at that subtle off white coloring. The tasteful thickness of it. Oh my God, it even has a watermark.
[deleted] ยท 25 points ยท Posted at 20:27:51 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I can't believe that Bryce prefers Van Patten's card to mine.
1moe7 ยท 17 points ยท Posted at 20:29:03 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
http://i.imgur.com/BQ2Sdmb.gifv
wadsworthsucks ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 02:00:07 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Uhh, that's what she said?
AWildEnglishman ยท 312 points ยท Posted at 15:47:07 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Wow those must be really overdue.
YipRocHeresy ยท 101 points ยท Posted at 19:03:31 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
What did blockbuster do with all overdue tapes when they went out of business?
dandroid126 ยท 68 points ยท Posted at 19:18:25 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I had one friend just keep his...
Bruce_Bruce ยท 146 points ยท Posted at 19:34:01 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
had
Aggrobuns ยท 35 points ยท Posted at 19:41:36 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Went too dark too fast.
yonkerbonk ยท 27 points ยท Posted at 21:16:37 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Is that the Pitch Black & 2 Fast 2 Furious crossover that Vin Diesel is starring in?
mred870 ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 01:29:29 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
2Fast 2Furyan.
---reddit_account--- ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 02:26:02 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
No, that's The Chronicles of Ridiculously Fast Cars
Jack_Bartowski ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:03:08 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Nah man, Luke Cage is the main star, Co-Staring Ice-T
TheNotoriousLogank ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:58:23 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
That's an amazing premise, of course he fucking kept it
abrAaKaHanK ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 21:34:19 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Clearly he ended the friendship due to deep moral disagreement.
EwokaFlockaFlame ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 03:04:04 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Absolute madman
IcarusI ยท 18 points ยท Posted at 19:30:33 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
The fees were waived!
http://www.cnn.com/2013/11/06/tech/gaming-gadgets/blockbuster-video-stores-impact/
Captain__Marvel ยท 14 points ยท Posted at 20:48:16 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
The Blockbuster I used to frequent is still open and about 3 months ago they messaged me (12 years too late and with atrocious spelling) "You may be unawarre you have a balance owing at Blockbuster To avoid further fees please pay in store within 14 days and we will half the debt"
DrJongyBrogan ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 22:48:18 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Knowledge saves the day! Have an upvote you treasure of a human being you.
[deleted] ยท 11 points ยท Posted at 20:06:20 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I'm sure there's some debt collection agency out there calling someone's grandparent weekly asking them to settle their debt for a long overdue copy of Soul Plane
[deleted] ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 21:00:56 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
[deleted]
JibbityJames ยท 9 points ยท Posted at 22:14:00 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Do you guys not have high speed internet or something?
originalityescapesme ยท 10 points ยท Posted at 22:45:10 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Many areas don't, yes. They could get satellite internet or even wireless in some areas, but its stupid expensive. I would still pay for it no matter what though.
CorrosiveBackspin ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 11:18:24 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I prefer horses to them thar horseless carriages too, they're the devils work.
rhymeswithvegan ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 22:46:22 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I recently moved out of a house that was 25 miles from Seattle and I couldn't get high speed Internet there. Best I could get was 3 mbps. Hence why I don't live there anymore. We rented a lot of movies.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 04:59:25 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Ha remember when a megabit/second was fast? I remember a commercial for 512k that just blew my mind.
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 21:36:12 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I kept a game from mine. Then traded it in for a profit.
Half_Man1 ยท 35 points ยท Posted at 19:15:07 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
FEED ME A STRAY CAT
SilenceoftheSamz ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 03:04:35 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I'm aroused and confused
krackbaby2 ยท 14 points ยท Posted at 18:43:18 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Where did you get that overnight bag!?
[deleted] ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 01:53:47 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You like Huey Lewis & The News?
CoolHeadedLogician ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 03:26:10 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
more of a Whitney man, myself
tomtehannes ยท 19 points ยท Posted at 15:51:13 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I was JUST leaving..
domyates ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 21:25:53 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Do you like Phil Collins....?
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 23:54:51 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I uh... Need to get to blockbuster like now... so uh, seeya..?
Preston3399 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 00:14:49 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Can someone remind me of the reference? I forgot.
Kerbologna ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 00:20:31 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
American Psycho
Preston3399 ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 00:31:03 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
ahh that was it. thanks.
CatCoughDrop ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 05:03:53 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I have reservations at Dorsia.
gukeums1 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:55:25 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Fuck, I left the oven on! I have to go!
Nomdeplume818 ยท -8 points ยท Posted at 16:48:00 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
American psycho โค๏ธ
[deleted] ยท -7 points ยท Posted at 17:16:55 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
[deleted]
Kerbologna ยท 16 points ยท Posted at 17:19:31 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I need to return my redbox.
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 18:26:57 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
titty_boobs ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 18:56:23 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
So you spin around in a complete circle so you're facing them again, for some reason, before you walk away?
ColonelMitchell ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 18:57:37 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Newfriend
onefireonefight ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 18:58:05 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Yeah 180's are out dated too.
1moe7 ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 20:27:54 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You're acting like that isn't normal
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 18:48:28 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Just say movies. I need to return some movies.
Rx0Unicorn ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 22:11:46 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You missed the reference.
[deleted] ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 21:43:57 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Solid reference
sillyponcho ยท -8 points ยท Posted at 17:16:15 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Quality reference. +1
notyourbrah ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 18:26:09 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Horrible quality reply. -1
sillyponcho ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 05:26:10 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
I'll cop that.
Vorengard ยท 1112 points ยท Posted at 15:11:07 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
The correct answer is Comrade
Team_Braniel ยท 402 points ยท Posted at 16:39:11 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Sire.
Lord.
But you may call me "Your Highness".
Vorengard ยท 103 points ยท Posted at 16:55:45 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Net! We do not tolerate such bourgeois titles designed by the elite to enslave the working class, capitalist scum!
robertschultz1 ยท 83 points ยท Posted at 17:11:48 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Nyet
[deleted] ยท 36 points ยท Posted at 17:39:09 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
cyka blyat
DankerOfMemes ยท 9 points ยท Posted at 17:54:14 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
rash b
pyfgcrl2 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:02:31 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I wonder how many people pronounce that as "seeka bleeyat"...
[deleted] ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 00:54:40 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
From the little russian I learnt, its "SUKA"
ALLKAPSLIKEMFDOOM ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 01:19:35 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It's pronounced like "sooka bi'lyat"
ZeeX10 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 03:37:33 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
A nu cheeki breeki iv damke!
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 03:38:32 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
u facking wa?
gary_the_goat ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 18:18:32 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
ะฝะตั
[deleted] ยท 43 points ยท Posted at 17:54:28 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
Vorengard ยท 20 points ยท Posted at 18:02:40 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Yes! And the evil monarchy are the originators of the capitalist system designed from its conception to oppress the workers and rip the free spirit from all men!
Man, I need to stop, I sound like an actual communist.
McBEAST ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 18:38:24 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Is that really such a bad thing?
/r/latestagecapitalism
Vorengard ยท -3 points ยท Posted at 18:43:04 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Um, yeah. That's a really bad thing. Communism is tyrannical, violent, and absurdly oppressive. It causes incalculable human misery and is responsible for more than 150 million deaths in the last century.
lackingsaint ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 19:15:28 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
Not like capitalism, of course. Mass poverty, great depressions, class divides and the privatization of government, healthcare, education, the military, the prison industry and access to drinking water never hurt anyone.
Communism killed millions of people (the highest estimate I've read was 100 million, but I guess another 50 couldn't hurt). Capitalism has killed billions, and counting.
kipz61 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:39:12 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Lol, source for the "billions" number?
Vorengard ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 19:37:41 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Billions and counting. Sure. I'd love to see the sources for those numbers.
Poverty in a communist society makes poverty in a capitalist society look like an all-expenses-paid vacation. The two are incomparable, as you would know if you were at all educated about history. The Soviets commissioned mass showings of the movie The Grapes of Wrath in an attempt to display how miserable life was for the poor in America; and then had to ban the film when people left amazed at how even the poorest in American society lived better than the average middle-class Russian.
lackingsaint ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 20:04:17 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
Speaking of being "educated about history", you're aware that the Soviets were state capitalists? No major society has ever been able to fully implement communism, and a nation forced into a military state, an ideology whose 'death toll' is largely comprised of a famine caused by trade blockades by fiercely capitalist nations, doesn't count.
I'm actually working on a paper studying the 'death toll' of capitalism. Until then, here's a decent few examples, and here's the reason why it's next to impossible to 'sum up' a thing like that.
People love to disassociate all deaths from capitalism because it's the 'default state' and therefore must be irrelevant. Weirdly enough, those same people decide that any and all deaths at the hands of the USSR are obviously the fault of communism - I wonder what number we'd reach if we did the same for capitalist nations.
Vorengard ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 20:14:33 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
"Riiiiiight, it's clearly the capitalists fault that the government-run farms in the Soviet Union were so incompetent and poorly managed that people starved by the millions. It's nice how you conveniently forget that most of those people died on purpose. It wasn't an accident, it was the deliberate starvation of millions of people because they were politically inconvenient and the Soviets found it easier to take their food and let them die than to fix their problems.
No the Soviets weren't State Capitalists. State Capitalism is a system where the state owns all means of production, but private property is still allowed; i.e. modern day China. This is different from communism where all goods and services are owned by the state, which is what was happening in the USSR.
Bacon_Kitteh9001 ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 22:52:08 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Damn Scots, they ruined Scotland!
People rarely blame capitalism because you don't see corporations fighting wars nowadays like Free Companies, and if a corporation does anything you think is wrong, you are free to boycott their goods and buy from a competitor.
People blame communism because government and goods are tied directly, they are one in the same since the law and goods are from one source, the government. There is no competition in a communist government because having one entity compete with itself would be detrimental, whether the economy is capitalist or communist.
You'd reach a large number, but only because you don't understand that correlation doesn't equal causation.
absent-v ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 19:05:57 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I feel compelled to make the typical argument that since we've never actually had a true communist society on anything larger scale than roughly 10 hippies too high to be productive, we can't know for sure if it does or does not work.
Vorengard ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 19:32:25 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
No, you're right, clearly it's a coincidence that every single society that attempts communism ends in horrible poverty and tyranny. That's surely a coincidence and we should just keep trying because this time everything will work out great.
absent-v ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 20:26:11 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Jus sayin, worthy letting a hip try Guy azzn,,,
Edit: That's the second time this weekend I've fallen asleep laying on top of my phone.
Can't even remember what i wanted to say.
Vorengard ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:31:02 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You must rest more comrade! One can not be of fighting the capitalists while sleeping!
Jonny_Segment ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 08:37:02 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You sound like someone who's trying to sound like an actual communist. But yes, certainly stop.
lackingsaint ยท -2 points ยท Posted at 18:53:35 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
That's a good thing.
Vorengard ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 18:58:30 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Definitely not
jamestwerk ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 18:00:06 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Admiral
578_Sex_Machine ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 18:16:36 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I read this in that british Kancolle ship's voice
Help me
Letmefixthatforyouyo ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 21:55:49 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Hugh, of Mungus.
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 23:35:31 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
His dudeness, duder, or El Duderino if, you know, you're not into the hole brevity thing.
The_Majestic ยท 181 points ยท Posted at 16:17:20 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Like that college kid that made his "His Majesty" to prove a point and people got offended.
Intern_Detective ยท 97 points ยท Posted at 17:09:24 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I go to the University of Michigan (where this happened), and you should count yourself lucky you didn't happen by the r/UofM subreddit.
The angry tumblristas were out in full force that day.
Balls_deep_in_it ยท 23 points ยท Posted at 17:33:08 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Link?
Intern_Detective ยท 83 points ยท Posted at 17:36:06 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Feast your eyes.
Edit - Oh, and the comment thread.
[deleted] ยท 102 points ยท Posted at 17:59:23 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
[deleted]
[deleted] ยท 76 points ยท Posted at 19:18:23 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
[deleted]
fdsa4327 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 20:50:24 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
His Majesty intends to file a complaint against this pronoun hate attack
ShallowBasketcase ยท 13 points ยท Posted at 19:11:48 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
to be fair, it's like whoever wrote the article didn't even read his quotes. It's pretty clearly written with a message and agenda in mind, and makes all that pretty clear before it ever even gets to what his intention was.
[deleted] ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 22:54:52 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
People should be able to refer to me as godzilla as a pronoun and they shouldn't be punished. Punishing someone for using the wrong pronoun is stupid. Especially if there's no immediate signs someone is trans or genderqueer.
Banana_Fetish ยท 67 points ยท Posted at 17:46:47 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
lmfao that sjw comment thread. I like the downvoted king cobra comment, Refer to me as "ss'' and"sss" from now on, thanks for your understanding.
Ser_Corwen ยท 21 points ยท Posted at 18:29:42 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Even if the guy wasn't trying to trigger them, he did a masterful job at it.
https://np.reddit.com/r/uofm/comments/550vep/student_officially_changes_his_personal_pronoun/d86vudi
This comment is my favorite, he/she/ze/helicopter/'s comparing gender to names.
facepalm
pm_ur_wifes_nudes ยท 10 points ยท Posted at 18:38:02 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
People in that thread keep saying there is "literally no downside" to the ability to select a pronoun at random. I would prefer not to degrade the English language any further.
yourselfiegotleaked ยท -4 points ยท Posted at 22:51:00 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
It's not "degrading the English language", that sounds just as stupid as those people. It's trying to force people to change the way they naturally speak, which is oppression, not degradation.
Edit: Do you people know nothing about linguistics?
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 21:25:12 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
When this was first spooling up someone posted a picture of thiers as lord and savior. To make it better apperently he was Mexican and his name was jesus. His name offends both the left and the right it's beutiful.
JesteroftheApocalyps ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 23:46:27 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Gozer the Tumblr. She will come in one of the pre-nonchosen genders. During the rectification of the Vagini, the Tumbler came as a large and moving Torg! Then, during the third reconciliation of the last of the Dharmic supplicants, they chose a new form for her: that of a giant Slor! Many Cis and Triggers knew what it was to be roasted in the depths of the Slor that day, I can tell you!
SplurgyA ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 19:33:45 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
But that's an honorific. "He" is still the pronoun in that example.
Snoopy_Hates_Germans ยท -19 points ยท Posted at 17:48:03 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Thank god that brave cisgender white man was there to show all the genderqueer or transgender students how ridiculous their preferred pronouns are!
The_Majestic ยท 13 points ยท Posted at 18:00:28 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
What is cigender?
ohrightthatswhy ยท 16 points ยท Posted at 18:06:33 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Someone who identifies as the gender they were assigned at birth
rburp ยท 21 points ยท Posted at 18:33:58 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Oh. So "normal"
ohrightthatswhy ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 18:36:41 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Statistically speaking yes. But they are also 'privileged'
mixmastermind ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 18:49:51 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I mean yeah, but no one likes to think of themselves as "abnormal."
moistmongoose ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 19:03:00 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Too bad, thinking you're a fucking planet-ferret is about as abnormal as it gets.
grubas ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 00:41:27 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I have yet to met a fellow Doctor of Psychology who considers themselves normal. We all consider ourselves somewhat insane and pretty fucked in the head. Because if you are normal, there is something seriously wrong with you.
Ser_Corwen ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 18:31:15 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
AKA normal people who have real problems
edit: tumblrinas downvoting lol
RinYoga ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 22:22:49 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
So transgender people don't have real problems?
I'm not even talking about otherkin and stuff you see on Tumblr about being some sort of animal or "transrace".
ButterMyBiscuit ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 18:36:24 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
A newly made up term for "normal"
dpwitt1 ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 18:12:58 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I believe "cis" means "not made up."
Snoopy_Hates_Germans ยท -2 points ยท Posted at 18:26:15 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Cisgender means that your gender expression (in other words, how you dress and act) matches the gender you were assigned at birth. It's important to keep in mind that this is different than sexuality. Homosexual men and women can still be cisgender if they still express their gender in accordance with their assigned gender.
rburp ยท 9 points ยท Posted at 18:34:24 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Lol
[deleted] ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 18:53:28 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
lmfao I remember when i learned about cis and trans fatty acids and kept waiting for the lecture to get to the point where it talks about "deciding" which one the molecule would choose to be cause I'd only heard the ~current year~ usage of the terms
good fuckin times
The_Majestic ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 18:39:52 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I was gonna say something, but you pretty much summed up what i had in mind.
Dynosmite ยท 10 points ยท Posted at 18:01:31 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I got a live one here guys!
Snoopy_Hates_Germans ยท -9 points ยท Posted at 18:27:17 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
"Hahahahaha, it's so funny when those freaks with different gender expression than me want to be treated like people!"
Dynosmite ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 18:34:34 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Crikey this is a big one! Stay back while I reel her in: "sex is binary"
Snoopy_Hates_Germans ยท -3 points ยท Posted at 18:36:08 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Why did you assume I'm a female? Do you really have that low an opinion of women?
Dynosmite ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 18:39:45 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
See how the female brays and displays her razor sharp accusations. She's on the verge of a triggering, must be a brood around.
Snoopy_Hates_Germans ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 18:43:39 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I'd love to have a frank heart-to-heart with your mother and ask her if she could ever tell growing up that you'd turn into someone who hates women.
Dynosmite ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 18:49:20 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Oy! This one's aggressive and out in the daylight. She may be sick so be wary of an attack at any moment.
GhostOfMuttonPast ยท 9 points ยท Posted at 18:04:14 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You clearly didn't get the point. It wasn't to make fun of ACTUAL trans people. It was making fun of those idiots who say they're trans because it's "trendy" and use pronouns like "bunself" or say they're Aesthetigender or some bs like that.
flareblitz91 ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 18:17:26 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I don't think you understand the flak actual trans people get or that when you're ridiculing people for preferred pronouns to you it might not be directed at actual trans people but a lot of the folks laughing with you aren't on the same page.
Snoopy_Hates_Germans ยท -3 points ยท Posted at 18:29:34 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It was absolutely to make fun of "actual" trans and genderqueer people. Demeaning any usage of nontraditional pronouns makes it exceptionally more difficult for the people that use them legitimately to be taken seriously. And it's not as if "actual" trans individuals are generally welcomed anyway.
SirDinkus ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 18:07:51 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
All it takes for the Transgender community to understand how annoying they are, is for another more ridiculous group to begin demanding that everyone cater to them. Personally, I keep waiting for the Furry community to step up. "No, you must refer to me as bitch. I identify as a half-human, half-dog female. Respect my pronouns and my right to urinate on this tree."
lackingsaint ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 18:59:18 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You obviously don't need the transgender community to educate you on anything, your comparison between them and furries makes that clear as day.
Snoopy_Hates_Germans ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 18:31:34 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Yeah, those trans freaks are definitely fighting for equal recognition just to annoy the straight people. Man, it's the blacks all over again, they sure were annoying when they were asking for the right to use the same bathrooms and schools as everyone else without being demeaned for their very presence!
/S
FuckStephCurry ยท 9 points ยท Posted at 18:35:10 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It is a mental illness
Snoopy_Hates_Germans ยท -4 points ยท Posted at 18:40:34 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Gender dysphoria is NOT a mental illness, and the tools for treating it absolutely do not consist of stigmatising the person for feeling how they do or seeking to restrict their preferred gender expression.
FuckStephCurry ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 18:42:49 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You need real problems in your life
Snoopy_Hates_Germans ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 18:46:16 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
The fact that someone can say "I feel this way" and society at large will say "I don't believe you, you must be mentally ill" is a "real problem".
FuckStephCurry ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 18:53:40 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
These are not real problems. These are weak minded individuals throwing a fit because we won't call them by their stupid pronouns or some other tumblr-like shit.
Snoopy_Hates_Germans ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 18:57:48 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Do you have a wife or a girlfriend?
FuckStephCurry ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 19:02:26 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Yeah what stupid ass point you gonna try to make?
Snoopy_Hates_Germans ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 19:06:04 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
If she said "I feel like you don't listen to me enough," would you call her weak-minded?
FuckStephCurry ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 19:18:23 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Uhh no, and you're an idiot.
Snoopy_Hates_Germans ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 19:25:44 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
So if a trans person says "I know I was born with a penis but I feel like a woman," why is that "weak-minded?"
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 18:55:08 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
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Snoopy_Hates_Germans ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 18:58:46 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Because writing it off as a mental illness is literally stigmatising people who suffer from gender dysphoria?
[deleted] ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 19:01:38 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
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Snoopy_Hates_Germans ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:12:11 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I originally said that trans and genderqueer people are fighting for equal acceptance and validation from society. The other commenter said "It is a mental illness."
If I was concerned with just responding directly to the claim they made, I would say, "No, gender dysphoria isn't a mental illness." Period. But that doesn't advance the conversation, and it doesn't address the underlying implication of that statement. By calling it a mental illness, he is implicitly stigmatising and belittling people who suffer from gender dysphoria or struggling with a lack of a societal acceptance.
[deleted] ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 19:19:57 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
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Snoopy_Hates_Germans ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 19:26:24 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You're making a very good point, and of course it's important to try and make sure that we're on the same page as the people we communicate with so we can share the greatest possible understanding between ourselves, but in this situation he meant exactly what I thought he meant, and that same commenter went on to say "These are not real problems. These are weak minded individuals throwing a fit because we won't call them by their stupid pronouns," so your comment unfortunately doesn't amount to much of use.
[deleted] ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 19:10:55 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Why can't we also pretend to be the race we prefer? I feel like a trans Samoan.
Snoopy_Hates_Germans ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:14:45 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Cool, nothing is stopping you from moving to Samoa and living as a Samoan. If someone says, "I was born in America, but I feel like I really belong in France," nobody bats an eyelash. If someone says, "I was born a man, but I feel like I really belong in a woman's body," people freak the fuck out.
[deleted] ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 19:18:07 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Fine but moving to samoa dosesnt make me Samoan. The same way dressing as a woman doesn't make me a woman.
Snoopy_Hates_Germans ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 19:40:34 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
The problem here is that you're conflating national origin with ethnic and racial identity, which is not an equivalent comparison to gender expression. Ethnic identity is something you are born into and become a part of whereas gender identity is something you're born with.
[deleted] ยท -2 points ยท Posted at 17:59:32 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
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ohrightthatswhy ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 18:06:09 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
... Wow.
flareblitz91 ยท -2 points ยท Posted at 18:15:45 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Not only is that ignorant and scientifically inaccurate it's just rude.
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 18:07:40 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Aww those poor poor individuals! When will white men learn to cater to our insanity?!?!?!
[deleted] ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 16:48:45 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Da.
TheOutlawJoseyWa1es ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 16:49:24 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Mm Ja.
Z_T_O ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 17:37:41 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Oui?
UTLRev1312 ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 23:13:44 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I'LL MEET YOU IN R/FULLCOMMUNISM IN 19.17 SECONDS
HardOff ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 19:59:42 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Respond with a racial slur and see which rule they're willing to violate
JamesTheJerk ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:18:03 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
The lady of the nasty and the doing of therein.
DankDialektiks ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:37:37 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Unfortunately, that is a noun and not a pronoun
comrade_leviathan ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 21:06:22 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It's my safe space.
whoreads23 ยท 105 points ยท Posted at 16:04:14 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It is decided
troyareyes ยท 40 points ยท Posted at 18:22:11 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
EET EEZ DECIDED!
htepO ยท 510 points ยท Posted at 16:52:32 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I might be a little muddled in the head here, but are pronouns necessary in a conversation between two people? I don't really care either way what anyone identifies as, but I'd be referring to them as 'you,' rendering their chosen pronouns moot. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Guffbrain ยท 376 points ยท Posted at 18:03:10 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
DUDE, you nailed it. I couldn't figure out what was bothering me about this.
In reality you will have a full conversation with someone and not refer to them by their gender pronoun. This opener forces an issue onto the conversation that was 99% likely to be absent.
sabrefudge ยท 364 points ยท Posted at 19:08:20 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Did you just assume OP's gender?
tenkaitravels ยท 54 points ยท Posted at 19:22:36 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
https://www.reddit.com/r/tumblr/comments/548b3p/everything_is_dude/?st=IU30NIJC&sh=cafdebc1
Kanerodo ยท 78 points ยท Posted at 19:52:06 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
In the immortal words of Ed, "I'm a dude, he's a dude, she's a dude. Cause we're all dudes!
darbymowell ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 22:17:10 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
HEY
Brandilio ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:42:45 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Isn't that a Less Than Jake lyric?
yourselfiegotleaked ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 22:55:15 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It's not that we call everything dude necessarily, it's also because dude has become an interjection. When my computer isn't working and I shout "dude!", I'm not referring to the computer, just yelling an interjection. However I understand the sentiment.
tenkaitravels ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 00:27:58 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
...dude...
tartacus ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 13:36:04 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I address my 5 year old daughter as "dude" fairly often. Just doing my part. I'm not even from California.
Doctor_Kitten ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 05:13:05 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Marklar IS marklar.
Vindexus ยท 18 points ยท Posted at 19:26:18 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Did you just assume the word DUDE's gender?
damngoodcheese ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 22:13:56 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
The 20th century philosopher Kel said it best.
walla_walla_rhubarb ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 23:45:58 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Dude is his preferred pronoun.
LuluVonLuvenburg ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 19:33:30 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
My friend is non-binary and they have no problem with Dude because it's essentially gender neutral now. There's been a song about it. It's 20 years old by now. https://youtu.be/FqMODweN8lQ
thedukeofnukem ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:29:22 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Have you not seen Good Burger?
[deleted] ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 19:24:28 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
What if the conversation starts referencing other people in multiple tenses?
[deleted] ยท 21 points ยท Posted at 19:15:06 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
How is it an issue? I don't believe in the whole pronoun thing, but just asking the question is pretty harmless. It wouldn't bother me any more than someone asking me what my astrological sign is.
tcain5188 ยท 27 points ยท Posted at 19:34:12 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Believing in astrology is far more stupid though, so thats understandable.
tuckman496 ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 21:06:23 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
One of these things is real and the other is not.
ix_Omega ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 07:44:21 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
gender has a real effect on you, unlike superstitions regarding the positions of the planets
tuckman496 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 07:51:14 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I meant that to be implicit in my comment.
isleepbad ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:36:53 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Either of those questions would turn me off immediately.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:38:53 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I've known some cool people who believed in astrological signs.
isleepbad ยท -6 points ยท Posted at 19:48:28 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Believing in it is one thing. Bringing it up in casual conversation with someone you don't know so well isn't.
Ryugi ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:16:06 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I would rather someone ask me than assume.
[deleted] ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 22:50:01 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I don't think that's reasonable to expect. Am I just supposed to now ask what someone's pronouns are every time I meet a new person?
Ryugi ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 01:39:11 on October 12, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Nope. The context is: people who you are going to be working with, being associated with, etc, for any amount of time longer than only one meeting. For example, a coworker. A fellow classmate in a university course. Etc.
[deleted] ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 03:40:55 on October 12, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
That's pretty much everyone I meet.
Ryugi ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 13:35:19 on October 12, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Well, if you will have to talk about them as a part of your average duties with others (for example, "s/he is ready for the next costume change" or "s/he is done with those reports") then you may want to consider it, should it not be obvious, and should your workplace be an inclusive workplace as opposed to a highly-regulated workplace.
For example, context of setting. In artistic industries you are more likely to meet LGBT+ colleagues who are "out" and who have spesific desires about how they are spoken to. In, say, an office job, everyone is meant to be a number. Personal needs and ideals are meaningless.
So basically learn to judge the context of the situation.
[deleted] ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 19:22:05 on October 12, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
The burden should be on them to communicate those desires to me, not the other way around.
I'm gay, but I don't expect to be asked my sexuality by everyone I meet and wouldn't be offended if, say, a woman assumed I was straight by hitting on me.
That crap about being numbers is bullshit. Maybe management treats employees that way, but employees don't generally treat their peers that way. People are people regardless of their profession, gender identity, or sexuality.
Ryugi ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 23:43:50 on October 12, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Then do whatever you want, I don't care. I'm not the boss of you. What was the point of asking me a ton of questions if you don't even care?
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 00:48:06 on October 13, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I asked you one question in an attempt to get you to realize how unreasonable your request is, which is what the rest of the discussion was about.
Ryugi ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 16:02:10 on October 14, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Its not unreasonable though, in the right context(s)/circumstances.
What is unreasonable is intentionally arguing FOR disrespecting people when its really not that hard to just, not disrespect people.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 17:00:53 on October 14, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You haven't given me a circumstance where it is reasonable. You've just said it's basically expected that you ask everyone you meet.
It's also not hard to just not feel disrespected when 9 times out of ten it is possible to tell someone's preferred pronouns just by looking at them. Also, I'm not arguing for disrespecting them. I'm just arguing for treating trans people like everyone else. If they want to be accommodated differently, it is on them to make that known.
Do you think it's reasonable for me to expect someone to ask one's sexuality before hitting on that person?
Ryugi ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:21:05 on October 14, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Ok well obviously in the situation where you are more likely to have a lot of LGBT+ coworkers its kind of a given.
Source?
How about just not hitting on people, and instead talk to others as though they are people not sex objects?
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:19:37 on October 14, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Um, no, that is not obvious, because that is not what we were talking about.
This is from you:
Trans population is, what, 1% of the total population? That means 99% of people are not trans and identify as their gender according to their sex organs. Are you telling me you can't tell the difference between males and females? Keep in mind you only need to be able to identify ~9/10 of them, as I said 9/10 not 99/100.
Seriously? What kind of world do you live in? There are places where hitting on people is normal and accepted, and there are places and occasions where people consent to being sex objects. Have you been to a gay bar, a strip club, night clubs, bath houses, brothels?
Ryugi ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 15:25:19 on October 15, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Source?
FYI - "hitting on" someone is treating them as sex objects. And I have been to night clubs, gay bars, and bath houses. Absolutely no flirting occurs in bath houses because people were just there to get clean and enjoy relaxing in the sauna in a traditional style setting... In fact it was a rule that sexual harassment or flirting with others would be grounds for removal. And at the night clubs I have seen many women get hit on and then aggressively attacked for refusing advances. And at gay bars people just have more class.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:09:13 on October 15, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
https://nytimes.com/2016/07/01/health/transgender-population.amp.html
I don't know why you couldn't just google "trans population percentage".
When did I imply that hitting on someone isn't sexually objectifying them? I literally gave you a list of places where it's okay, and you're still arguing about it? You clearly haven't been to a gay bath house. People go there to have sex and watch others have sex. You ignored brothels and strip clubs, and gay bars are the least classy kind of bar I have ever been to.
You do realize the down vote button isn't an "I disagree with you" button, right?
Ryugi ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 20:27:24 on October 15, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I don't know why it's so hard for you to back up your claims at all.
Your list doesn't include intersex population though, who also have differing appearance vs gender problems, and are about 1-100 births. You may have even been born intersex but could be modified without consent/knowledge, as that was a common practice before the 2000s.
Hitting on someone vs speaking to them implies sexual objectification.
I ignored the places I haven't been to, and I told you about the places I have. Your question was whether or not I had ever been to them. I answered.
And, don't flatter yourself. I don't bother downvoting comments. You do know our conversation is public, right?
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:38:11 on October 15, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Your source is for sex variations, which covers a vast range of conditions, not just people who don't look like their gender. So my estimates, which were very conservative, still hold. So, no, I don't need to ask every person I meet what their pronouns are if 9/10 times I can tell without asking. They or the person who introduces us can tell me if they want to be accommodated specially.
You ready to walk back your comment about not hitting on people and just talking to them, then, since I've clearly established that there are occasions when hitting on people is allowed?
You're trying to tell me that someone is somehow following our conversation on a six day old post and downvoting my comments shortly after you reply every time? And not up voting your comments? Come on...
Ryugi ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 15:07:10 on October 16, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Who am I to judge what other redditors do with their time?
I was specifically and obviously referring to
Meaning: These people do not look typically male or typically female.
Meaning: If you work with more than 100 people, at least a few of them are bound to be intersex. If you consider all other forms of intersex variations, even moreso. As this does not include transgender people, it's even moreso.
Doesn't matter, it's still trashy imo, and you literally cannot change my mind on that, because it's my opinion. So grow up and deal with other people judging you for your behavior.
[deleted] ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 19:34:46 on October 16, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I said 9/10, you asked for a source. I gave you one. Then you give a source that doesn't change anything. 2/100 is still less than 1/10. And no, if you work with more than 100 people (nobody actually regularly works with this many people), that does not mean that a few of them are bound to be intersex. Per your source, 1 of them probably is.
You're incredibly childish, lying about the downvoting thing, arguing for no reason (first about the number of trans, then about the hitting on people thing).
I've given counterarguments to each of your original claims, now you're still holding on to the idea that I should accommodate trans people specially (might that have to do with the fact that you're trans and have a victim complex)? And you're also now changing your tune about hitting on people, labelling consenting adults as trashy for acting on their sexual desires. Hypocritical, much? You want people to be accepting of your personal, sexual abnormalities, but now it's trashy for others to indulge theirs in private places where it's socially acceptable?
Ryugi ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 00:58:58 on October 17, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Did you miss the part where only 1/100 accounts for only one of the more than ten variations thereof, which doesn't even include transgenderism/gender dysphoria? As in, there are far more?
You're childish for being so obsessed with internet points and being so accusatory about it as though it means anything. Lmao. I guess you're not worth having a conversation with.
It's not trashy to have sexual urges. It is trashy to "hit on" people. There is a difference between flirting/courtship and hitting on people.
[deleted] ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 01:24:27 on October 17, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
From your source:
Obsessed? I made one offhand comment about it. You're nuts.
And no, hitting on people is a form of flirting. Why don't you try and give me a form of hitting on someone that couldn't be classified as flirting?
Ryugi ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 02:41:54 on October 17, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Pickup lines, negging, inappropriately-timed sexual comments (such as for example, walking up and telling a girl she has nice breasts before even saying hello) are all examples of hitting on that are derogative and treating another person as a sex object vs a person, that are also not flirting.
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Stonn ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 20:12:33 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
There are languages where it would be the case though - like most Slavic languages.
ginja_ninja ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 23:00:41 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Gender identity stuff is inherently wrapped up with narcissism. People just get massively fixated on how the world sees them, imagining how they're talked about when they aren't around, ensuring everyone knows exactly how they feel about everything all the time. This isn't to say that every narcissist is going to want to switch genders, but everyone who cares enough about their body and appearance to not just go with what they've got and live life has to have a decent amount of self-obsession to make it that deep a focus of their life and identity.
CloudEnt ยท 156 points ยท Posted at 19:19:34 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I photographed an LGBTQ ad campaign and the whole team struggled with this while discussing the models we worked with. One of our grips used the wrong pronoun for a trans woman ("We could put him in front of that red wall...") and the air got sucked out of the room. I apologized and immediately implemented a system where we only used first names for the rest of the shoot. It was impossible to determine gender by sight in that environment. When a model would arrive we said the first name over the walkies in everyone's ear. We do that for every shoot now but I live in constant fear of making people uncomfortable because I'm terrible with names. It's a tough way to work but I don't see a way around it.
coolcool23 ยท 186 points ยท Posted at 21:30:45 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Alternatively everyone could be adults and assume correctly that an honest mistake was made by someone who is not close enough to any of them to really know any of that information.
Or we could just all feel awkward and angry for no reason.
ksaid1 ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 07:48:53 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Fair point, but it's not always safe for transgender people to assume that. Obviously in that specific environment nothing bad was gonna happen. But it's not unlikely that the model has been made fun of, harassed, or threatened for being transgender in the past. So I can understand why they would be a little on edge about it.
RainbowPhoenixGirl ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 09:39:13 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It's kind of an issue when people say that, because whilst almost all trans people will do that, these are people who are dealing with people doing it aggressively and deliberately every single day. I'm an intersex woman, so I get aggressively misgendered constantly by people who assume I'm trans (and apparently they would have an issue with this. I really do not understand why). When you're facing that every single day, that is unbelievably draining. It becomes so very hard for you to feel that every time it happens, it's not an attack.
Back-of-the-envelop calculation here, but I think 70% of the people I see on a regular basis use pronouns that are different to the ones they would have had used for them at birth. We live in a very progressive region, and yet I've still had to scrape transphobic slurs off the wall at my place of work. I've still had to have security escort people out for getting physically aggressive towards some of our trans staff members and clients who's only offence was to correct pronouns.
So yeah. "Acting like adults" is hard when so many people act like animals around you.
BarneyBent ยท 93 points ยท Posted at 20:03:51 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
"Them". Or ask politely. It's really not that difficult.
greenblackman ยท 9 points ยท Posted at 02:38:44 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Them is actually a lot more difficult and vague when trying to use practically, as it could mean a number of different people rather than referring to one person. In the example, "We could put them in front of that red wall..." could be referring to an individual or the collective whole.
noeljaboy ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 21:47:53 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
i'd bet you some people are offended by "them". no evidence, but with the vast spread of things people are offended by these days, i'd bet "them" is somewhere on the list.
apley ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 00:05:26 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Can confirm. Have a friend who identifies as two spirit who gets upset when someone refers to them as "them" or "they" and has some other pronoun I cant remember for the life of me.
(Although for the record I have several genderqueer/gender neutral friends who are awesome people and I have no issue with.)
teiknethal ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 00:14:03 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 04:02:10 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It's a thing from several native american cultures.
You don't have to act shocked at every new thing, you could just google it.
teiknethal ยท -4 points ยท Posted at 04:25:04 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Which I'm willing to bet the majority of people "identifying" as "two spirit" have no ties to the Native American community...
And don't act shocked when people don't immediately know the definition for whatever self-identity is popular on Tumblr that week.
[deleted] ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 04:31:52 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I'm not shocked, this is a bog standard day for me in terms of people being assholes about others identities.
I will agree that there are a lot of troubling things about people appropriating native american cultures and religions.
LikesTheTunaHere ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 00:48:43 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It just makes it easier for you to identify crazy, wish I was at the right age or in college so I could be tagging all the people I met who were going through this phase right now so that in 2-5-10 years later I could have a good laugh with them, and to the ones who are assholes about it, throw it in their face and then have a laugh.
Thucydides76 ยท -7 points ยท Posted at 21:53:38 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Difficult, certainly not. But it's an extra step that most people are only now being forced to take.
aquamarinerock ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 22:27:52 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Oh no! Not another 10 second step!
Thucydides76 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 23:33:27 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I'm not saying it's difficult or even that I have a problem with it, just that it's still relatively new to (American) mainstream society. It takes people time to make social adjustments we have spent a lifetime practicing.
patrickquinn77 ยท -8 points ยท Posted at 22:18:30 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Should never have to ask something like that. That's bullshit.
LikesTheTunaHere ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 00:49:34 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I just get offended at them being offended by my lack of tact\understanding or whatever you want to call it, its more fun that way.
LikesTheTunaHere ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 00:46:21 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Ain't nobody got time for that and maybe I'm just too old and stubborn or kind of an asshole. If you look like a dude, yous a dude, if you got tits, an ass, long hair and make up you are either a rockstar or a girl.
Ryugi ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 22:18:39 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
When one isn't sure, using a name instead of a gendered pronoun is safer overall and easier on everyone's stress levels. I approve of your idea for the system. And thank you for trying.
Even if you mess up. Try not to stress too much. Its completely ok to ask to confirm. For example, "[Ryugi] I forget, you prefer male or female pronouns? Sorry." Is totally cool. Or, "Shit, I forget your name and that's my bad, what is it? And while I'm at it, what's your preffered pronoun? Just for clarity's sake."
I am a transman who is also bad with names, so don't feel bad. I have accidentally misgendered people WAY too often.
htepO ยท 14 points ยท Posted at 19:37:24 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
My question was directed at how OP's title was phrased, where the resultant conversation would entail the usage of you/your/yourself and not third-person pronouns.
I understand that trans people do face difficulties with putting that information out there, but is that the best way to start a conversation? Given OP's scenario where the conversation is between two old friends, would a better way not be, when/if the friend's gender (identity) comes up, simply to go, "Here's the thing... [rational explanation here]?"
As a photographer who has to work regularly with diverse groups of people, would you like to add constantly tiptoeing around possible gender identity issues to the list of things you already do have to tiptoe around? Given that it was an LGBTQ campaign that you were shooting, was the onus of responsibility on you or on the clients to make sure that members of the group were identified correctly? What happens when you work with a group with two or more people with the same first name? Why is it always on you?
tuckman496 ยท -5 points ยท Posted at 21:23:43 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
The problem I have with your thinking is that you seem to feel like its some significant burden for a person to intentionally try and prevent a queer person from feeling uncomfortable. I think cis people more or less owe it to queer people - groups that have only recently received acceptance or even acknowledgment - to provide an intentionally comfortable environment. Of course mistakes happen, but "tiptoeing" isn't as stressful as you make it seem. Not being acknowledged as the person you say you are sounds pretty stressful to me.
htepO ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 21:28:59 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
"X owe it to Y"
Okay.
tuckman496 ยท -4 points ยท Posted at 22:04:19 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
So you're going to discredit everything I said because you don't like that phrasing? How about this - queer people would really appreciate if you thought about anybody but yourself for once and didn't complain about learning new ways of addressing people. This is coming from a straight white male that started thinking about other people but himself for once.
youngdumbfulIofcum ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 06:38:51 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I, a dude, with a penis that I grew myself, don't owe shit to anyone. The world isn't here to make all the special individual snowflake people comfortable. You want everyone to be treated equally, then you need to understand that the real world doesn't give a fuck about anybody.
tuckman496 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 07:50:15 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I beg you to show me some sort of evidence that certain groups don't get fucked over more than any other group. Transgender people tend to feel particularly fucked over, to the point of killing themselves. But fuck them for asking that you actually think of them as their preferred gender, right?
youngdumbfulIofcum ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 18:10:43 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Youre harping on me about sources and evidence and you link to a Huffington Post article? Eat me.
Give me a population that is marginalized for simply existing and has no means of defense, like people with developmental disabilities who have no voice for themselves, and I'll get up in arms. Identity is important but it's not my responsibility to make people feel happy, it's on them.
IVIaskerade ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 01:05:06 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
"Would the bastard in red go stand by that cunting wall and will the arsebiscuit fucking around on their phone get out of the way please."
on_cloud_wine ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 04:09:05 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I guess you could use you. I'm terrible with people's names as well and manage to get around it by saying "you" and gesturing. You could even say "if you in the blue top could stand over there...". But I guess that could be seen as rude as well!
[deleted] ยท -3 points ยท Posted at 20:37:16 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:42:51 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
bayerndj ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 22:06:56 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Wow, did just you assume that thing's species?
[deleted] ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 05:25:11 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
OMG seriously?
This people. This is why this postmodernist SocJus shit is completely fucking garbage and its SOLE purpose is to fracture a society.
This dude is actually getting anxiety by calling someone who looks like a man, a man.
Pathetic.
ThePartyPony ยท 22 points ยท Posted at 22:35:26 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
In my experience, those who ask about my preferred pronoun are usually using it as a way to vocalize their own pronouns in a less awkward way. A passive less-aggressive way to establish their identity. Or someone who is new to Trans Culture and is trying to show support as an ally.
When in doubt, use "they/them". And honestly, if you use the wrong pronoun with someone you've just met, that's okay. Most people don't wear their gender on their sleeves. Just apologize and move on. Don't make a big deal out of it.
royalstaircase ยท 120 points ยท Posted at 17:35:01 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It's just something you'd wanna know if you need to refer to them in the third person later on.
GarbageKnapp ยท 152 points ยท Posted at 17:52:59 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Yea, don't see the big deal. OP's friend was trying to be as respectful of OP as possible
OnlinePosterPerson ยท 81 points ยท Posted at 18:40:35 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I'd feel REALLY respected if someone asked me if I identify as a girl or guy
ThisIsOffensive ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 20:38:41 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Excuse me, what are you?
MY_GF_IS_CHUBBY_AMA ยท 33 points ยท Posted at 18:48:40 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I can't tell if that's supposed to be sarcasm. You have a very gender-neutral username, so I'll assume it wasn't.
OnlinePosterPerson ยท -17 points ยท Posted at 20:08:07 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It was extreme sarcasm. I'm a guy. And like most guys would be insulted to be asked what my gender is when it's very clear. I'd also be insulted that they would assume I go in for that PC-bull
Trigger_Me_Harder ยท 20 points ยท Posted at 22:25:36 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You seem really easily offended and triggered. Have you considered not being so sensitive over such petty issues?
Zargabraath ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 02:51:02 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
relevant user name
OnlinePosterPerson ยท -17 points ยท Posted at 23:41:31 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Your liberal rhetoric is giving me cancer
MAKE_ME_REDDIT ยท 10 points ยท Posted at 23:50:20 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Oh man, oh man, we got A TRIGGERED PERSON OVER HERE!
MY_GF_IS_CHUBBY_AMA ยท 29 points ยท Posted at 20:17:40 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I'm comfortable enough with my gender that I wouldn't be offended if someone asked my gender.
Getting offended by someone asking your gender is as dumb as getting offended by someone using the wrong gender.
_breadpool_ ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 08:30:12 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I'm fuck ugly, so if someone asks my gender, I might have a few hurt feelings.
murphs33 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 06:53:06 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
If you think it's insulting for someone to ask if you're a person who identifies as a different gender, then it sounds like you have a problem with transgender people. I mean, just because I'm straight, doesn't mean I'd find it insulting if someone asked what my sexual orientation is, but I'd question if someone who is insulted by that is homophobic, though.
OnlinePosterPerson ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 07:29:00 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I don't have a problem with transgender people. I have a problem with the people who encourage that particular delusion. It's ridiculous to even consider that someone would ask someone whether they believe they're a boy or a girl regardless of what they're body is. The body is all there is to sex and the relabeling of the word gender to mean some theoretical mental version of sex that can differ is ludicrous. It's a catalogued mental disability called gender dysmorphia. I mean if someone has a split personality disorder or schizophrenia or thinks they're an alien we help them. We give them medical treatment and counseling and encourage them to accept reality. But for some reason this stopped being the case for pretty much the exact same situation. Encouraging a person's mental illness is not heroic. It's wrong. You can't switch genders. If you don't have a Y chromosome you're not a male.
murphs33 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 12:38:42 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
I'm having a hard time finding a reliable source that states gender dysmorphia as a mental disability. What I did find, however, is a link to the American Psychiatric Association stating that gender dysphoria (formally known as Gender Identity Disorder), is a condition where they treat the distress involved with seeing yourself as another gender than the one you're born as, not the gender identity itself (link).
and
and
I'll also link to the NHS:
edit: I got one downvote, no reply, and you went on to reply to other things since. Funny that you had such strong opinions on gender dysmorphia (which you confused with body dysmorphia and gender dysphoria), but got stumped by actual facts, so you just downvoted instead.
GarbageKnapp ยท -9 points ยท Posted at 18:48:41 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
You should try being mindful of trans and nb people who really appreciate when people don't jump to conclusions based on appearance, it's such a sweet reminder that people care about you. (:
I don't get the outrage, if cis people are excluded from trans/nb topics, they whine. People try to include them and they whine. The world doesn't revolve around being cis and when people ask you stuff like this it's to be respectful, if you identify as the gender you were born as just say your pronouns, it's not a jab at you looking, god-forbid, like a trans person...
RegalGoat ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 19:31:57 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You have a point, it's all about respect which I can in turn respect, but it suggests that they might be a little... off to ask you in a conversation what your gender pronoun is. It would generally be more respectful and socially acceptable (IMO) to refer to someone as the gender they appear to be, then apologise if you later find out that they identify as something else.
So basically I get that the woman OP was talking to was trying to be polite/respectful, but I think that she was a little lacking in tact when trying to go about showing that respect.
23skiddsy ยท 20 points ยท Posted at 18:45:42 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Except generally asking preferred pronouns causes more dysphoria for some trans people (particularly if they thought they were passing well). It does not solve the problem of misgendering.
XProAssasin21X ยท 43 points ยท Posted at 20:56:45 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You're right it doesn't solve the problem, but I've never heard of another trans person who would get offended at someone asking them their pronouns.
Source: im trans
[deleted] ยท 24 points ยท Posted at 21:41:36 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
[deleted]
sgtpeppers508 ยท 15 points ยท Posted at 00:25:34 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I get misgendered about 95% of the time when people don't ask me what my pronouns are, so I'm very aware that I don't pass. When people ask me, I tend to get misgendered a whole lot less because, well, they know what my pronouns are.
Oligomer ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 02:42:16 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Completely baffling! /s
tuckman496 ยท 14 points ยท Posted at 21:10:31 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Are you saying this from experience or speculating? I was at a meeting recently where we went around and introduced ourselves and also gave our preferred pronouns. One of the people was a trans man, but I would have assumed they were just a tomboy-ish girl. A little different scenario because it wasn't asked directly to this person, but it was more helpful than I would have expected.
Iybraesil ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 05:24:38 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
ftfy
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 04:05:04 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It does not solve the problem.
It is there to help alleviate the problem however, i would much rather be asked than be called sir another 5 times during the conversation. This happens in doctor's offices, coffee shops, businesses etc. Cis people generally don't notice or care, but when it is a source of dysphoria for you, you damn well notice it.
Ryugi ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:27:37 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Except not actually.
moistmongoose ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:04:38 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
The only thing that will solve that completely, is plastic surgery.
23skiddsy ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 19:07:51 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
All I know is a lot of trans people would rather just correct possible mistakes later than having the awkward up front question.
htepO ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:21:22 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
This, I feel, is what any reasonable person would/should do.
booksblanketsandtea ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:46:59 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Unfortunately it's a lose-lose situation then - you either ask and be certain (while risking a slight upset) or you don't ask and guess (which risks an even bigger upset).
Of course, if people used the gender-neutral singular 'they' more often, this wouldn't be an issue.
RagnarSvedje ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 18:48:59 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Just the name?
Stonn ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:17:35 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Don't even get me started on this. Peoples names, ugh. So many, so random.
Who memorizes these anyway?
royalstaircase ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:46:06 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You need their name and their pronoun in order to properly refer to someone in third person, otherwise without their pronoun you're stuck saying "luke went to luke's house and made luke's cousin a birthday card after eating luke's famous roast beef".
Capcombric ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:18:02 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Still seems weird to ask out of the blue. If someone is very androgynous, NB, trans, or they use pronouns other than whatever most people would defer to, they'll know that and they'll probably tell you.
royalstaircase ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 02:49:24 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I get what you mean, but if you're already introducing each other (name, job, college major, where you live, etc), pronouns can easily just be another thing on the list.
beelzeflub ยท 35 points ยท Posted at 17:14:55 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Hmm, good point. Maybe OP's friend just wanted to be considerate if and when they would refer to OP in the third person. Trans* and nonbinary people are a lot more open about their identities now, so it doesn't hurt to ask.
[deleted] ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 04:05:42 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
This is literally the most likely thing, i don't understand how this freaks anyone out.
beelzeflub ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 04:38:57 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
This thread is a burning heap of dung, so I don't know. I'll just carry on trying to be respectful of gender identities like a decent person.
[deleted] ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 04:40:52 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
reddit on politics
Iramohs ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 18:59:56 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Usted is easier.
grubas ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 00:46:57 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I use first names in conversations with students to try and make me remember them because I am God awful with names. That way I might recognize them when grading and if they really attended office hours I'm more willing to help their grade compared to a student who shows up the day before the final with a failing grade pleading with me.
amusing_trivials ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 01:10:39 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Maybe he just wants to know for the future.
eviscerate-me ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 02:04:00 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Probably not necessary unless there's more than two people. But I'd imagine the friend is asking for future reference, that way they don't refer to OP incorrectly.
Ryugi ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:15:49 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I feel that if you have the chance to ask someone what they prefer, it is good to know. For example if they were born a man but are a transwoman you wouldn't want to say, "thanks for holding the door, sir" (playfully). You'd want to say "miss" or "ma'am" in that case.
PublicToast ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:00:19 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I've just never understood why they ask for pronouns plural... Like if they're a she they're obviously also a her and hers, why specify all three? It would be much less awkward to ask for one.
The-SARACEN ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 22:02:27 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Because some unique special snowflakes like to make shit up.
CanadianGuy116 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:50:41 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
If there are three people or more in the conversation then pronouns would be used. Referring about one person to the other as he/she. Having said that, I think the whole thing is ridiculous. I'm not going to ask anyone which pronoun they would like me to use. I'll use he or she based on physical obviousness until corrected otherwise.
Edit To the downvoters: Which do you think is MORE offensive? Asking everyone "Do you prefer to be addressed as he or she?" Or not asking in the first place, and let those who are in the process of undergoing gender reassignment tell you "Actually I prefer she."
Chaotic_Narwhal ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:39:58 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I'm sorry why are you ASSUMING you can refer to me as "you"? How do you know that doesn't trigger my PTSD from something that I don't have to explain to you?
/s
I almost didn't include a /s because I thought it was obviously ridiculous, but I read it over and I realized I definitely needed a /s.
I_HATE_HAMBEASTS ยท -3 points ยท Posted at 20:27:36 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Omg did you just assume my pronoun?
I go by thee/thou/thy
htepO ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:30:24 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
sry :/
newguy5150 ยท 88 points ยท Posted at 16:15:36 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
RAFI BOMB!!!
Bruton_Gastor123 ยท 25 points ยท Posted at 16:38:39 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
GATTACA!!!
apamirRogue ยท 13 points ยท Posted at 18:03:10 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Have you even seen that movie? I'm pretty you wouldn't be yelling that if you had.
Bruton_Gastor123 ยท 17 points ยท Posted at 18:09:24 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I don't know who you are, but you're about to get chlamydia.
UnstableFlux ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:08:27 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Can I have some?
MessiEsque ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 18:43:23 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I started GTA V single player last week, and when I slapped a thick beard and long hair on Trevor, he's turned into Rafi.
[deleted] ยท 1607 points ยท Posted at 13:46:57 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Your friend's reaction when you tell her you make gifs on the Internet
๐๏ธ infidiLL ยท 1071 points ยท Posted at 13:48:23 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
http://i.imgur.com/HkO6UCv.gifv
[deleted] ยท 327 points ยท Posted at 13:53:01 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
http://i.imgur.com/un6WjWX.gifv
[deleted] ยท 48 points ยท Posted at 16:51:25 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Come now, Priest. I have much to show you.
JesteroftheApocalyps ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 23:34:39 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Can I come?
[deleted] ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 02:03:57 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
A good shipwright is always a boon, my Floki
JesteroftheApocalyps ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 02:10:44 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/69/e9/41/69e941d5d1f24bbf80745c76bb06ebf6.gif
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 06:14:16 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You'll kill the... mood
4355525 ยท 95 points ยท Posted at 14:50:45 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
... Go on...
[deleted] ยท 32 points ยท Posted at 15:01:50 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
[removed]
ThisUsernameIs20ltrs ยท 72 points ยท Posted at 15:14:09 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
We went too far
BadNewBearer ยท 24 points ยท Posted at 15:34:47 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
too far broseph ! can you give a the source though, so i can tell my bros not to touch it
[deleted] ยท 27 points ยท Posted at 15:47:06 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
/r/NotGayPorn
jd_balla ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 18:13:13 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I will never not find a laugh in this sub
ThaBauz ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 22:53:13 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
What did I expect
hjwoolwine ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 02:24:14 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Yep
jabels ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 04:21:09 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I hope this doesn't awaken anything in me.
A_Slow_Descent ยท 51 points ยท Posted at 15:59:43 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
http://i.imgur.com/crT7wgV.jpg
xxThatxGuyxx ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 17:51:58 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I'm guessing he posted gay porn?
Innerv8 ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 19:01:42 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Yep.
4355525 ยท 17 points ยท Posted at 15:08:21 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
I sat for about maybe 10 seconds pondering what that gif might be before I opened it. I should know Reddit by now lol. NSFW btw!
SpaceCat87 ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 16:12:03 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Jesus christ
arbyD ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 20:21:05 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Ooooooh Ragnar.
Poiuytgfdsa ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 22:27:02 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
:))))
Oxygen25 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 12:42:22 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Always shipped them in the show..
peanutbuttahcups ยท 13 points ยท Posted at 17:55:15 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Hate, hate, hate, hate, hate
SnarkDolphin ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 02:10:08 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go put some water in Buck Nasty's momma's dish
ChRoNicBuRrItOs ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 04:52:21 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
No, that's lemonade
joffreyisjesus ยท -13 points ยท Posted at 16:41:12 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
So was your post tbh
TeamRedundancyTeam ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 18:15:09 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
How?
joffreyisjesus ยท -3 points ยท Posted at 18:57:43 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It suggests that OP won't talk to people that attempt to be considerate of trans people
TeamRedundancyTeam ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 19:44:15 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
There are so few transgender people in the world that it's very strange to ask someone what their preferred gender pronoun is without any lead up to it in conversation.
joffreyisjesus ยท -4 points ยท Posted at 19:48:42 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I agree that if someone's pronouns are not what others would expect then it should be on them to alert others, as the party with lower information costs. BUT to make a post on reddit about how you don't like people that attempt to be accomodating is transphobic.
TeamRedundancyTeam ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 20:05:59 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
No it doesn't. I honestly don't know how you could possibly make that leap and can only assume you've never witnessed real "-phobic" anything, racism, or sexism if you throw around the term for something so trivial.
To make the leap that finding it uncomfortable that someone would randomly ask a question like that with no lead up to it all the way to them being transphobic is a joke.
joffreyisjesus ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 20:13:16 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Sometimes attempts at inclusive language are awkward or corny. It's still good that the imaginary friend in this scenario was making an attempt. To condemn them for it is ignorant, and to make this post about an imaginary situation could only have anti-trans people intent.
TeamRedundancyTeam ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 20:24:22 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Now you're just making shit up to fit your own agenda. If you actually cared about the acceptance of transgenders you wouldn't throw terms like transphobic around willy-nilly and removing them of any real meaning. People like you are not doing transgenders any favors.
joffreyisjesus ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 20:26:04 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
K.
TutsMcgree ยท 25 points ยท Posted at 16:00:25 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
Trigger_Me_Harder ยท 35 points ยท Posted at 22:24:04 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I don't know why Reddit hates the idea of being nice or cordial so much.
How thin skinned do you have to be to be triggered by someone asking a question like in the title?
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 00:41:00 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
Eekem_Bookem243 ยท 10 points ยท Posted at 00:57:24 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Why do you think transsexuals transition in the first place? Can you even imagine what it's like to go through all of the bullshit they put up with? Obviously gender is something very important to them or they wouldn't go through the process at all. It's not about them being thin skinned in this case, it's about us just being decent people to each other.
Referring to others with the wrong gendered pronoun can re-surface traumatic emotions and create a sense of dysphoria as they often lose their sense of self when referred to with the wrong pronoun. Using the correct pronouns isn't that difficult, transitioning is. I don't understand why people get so butt-hurt over this concept. Just check your privilege please.
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 01:03:28 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
Eekem_Bookem243 ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 01:39:39 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You are unconcerned with the pronoun in which people refer to you, no? That is your privilege. Mine too just for what it's worth.
mike10010100 ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 04:00:25 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
About as triggered as you are for replying off topic to a top-level comment in the hopes that your friends would see it and upvote it.
Trigger_Me_Harder ยท -4 points ยท Posted at 04:02:12 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You take this way too seriously, bro.
mike10010100 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 04:06:51 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
...says the guy who literally replied to a top comment with an off-topic reply in the genuine hope that they would be able to virtue-signal harder than the rest of the thread.
But yeah, I take it too seriously. Okay. I'll just.....oh hey look constantly posting in /r/politics like it's your job. Got it. But don't take things too seriously, duderino.
Trigger_Me_Harder ยท -3 points ยท Posted at 04:11:26 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It's on topic. I'm sorry that it triggered you so hard. Perhaps you can find a safe space to hide out in for a while.
mike10010100 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 04:26:00 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
No it's not.
"Haha you make gifs."
"YOU KNOW WHAT ANNOYS ME ABOUT REDDIT?"
Oh man, is this the new "i trole u" or "u mad bro" response now?
Sorry, I didn't come into an unrelated thread to spew bullshit about people on reddit as a whole. You did that.
But have fun raging away in /r/politics while the rest of us have a goddamn life. Bye now, kiddo!
FuckMyAss4Jesus ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 07:36:54 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I know why u/mike10010100 is triggering so hard ( อกแต อส อกแต )
Buddys_dad ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:00:54 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
How dare you assume a gender pronoun for that person?!
kurtthewurt ยท 37 points ยท Posted at 17:45:28 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
At first I thought "Maybe she's just being careful not to offend anybody", but then I thought about it some more and it's kind of an odd thing to do. When interacting with somebody, I will absolutely address you by whatever pronouns you prefer - I have zero issue with this and want you to be happy. However, I'm not going to ask this question at the beginning of every interaction with a human being. That just seems unnecessarily complicated and could end up making someone even more uncomfortable, like OP here.
tl;dr If I use the wrong pronoun, just tell me
gafftaped ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 21:22:19 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It's more the responsibility of the person with the preferred pronouns to let other people know. People can't magically know other peoples pronouns if they aren't told by that person first.
obscene_banana ยท 106 points ยท Posted at 18:16:54 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
As an Icelander, I can't say I relate with this... We have a lot of trans people here, but nobody is going to throw a hissy fit for being called the wrong pronoun... it's more like "Oh hey actually I'm a girl now" "-Oh ok bro... I mean babe" and that's the end of it.
Is it really becoming insulting to not ask for gender pronouns now? The way I see it, it's probably more insulting TO ASK, because this implies you're not sure about the other person's gender (the consensus here is pretty much that you shouldn't care).
darkscottishloch ยท 21 points ยท Posted at 19:30:47 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I think a good many people in the US feel that way as well. But anecdotes about placing the responsibility for how you identify yourself on other people - and losing your shit when they don't meet your expectations - makes a lot of people frustrated with the whole subject. That said, my experience of people losing said shit has only been from news stories and Reddit, not in real life, so for all I know this is in reality a non-issue for the vast majority.
FOOLAnonymous ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 00:41:31 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I've only met two people like that. I was at a small art gallery and said that I didn't understand the whole gender pronoun thing and they got really mad at me for it.
imfinethough ยท 41 points ยท Posted at 18:52:00 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I haven't ever run into anyone that asks pronouns in real life, and I'm trans. Just refer to people as what they appear to be to you, and if they correct you and say "oh I actually prefer he, I'm transitioning to a guy" or whatever, you just say "oh my b" and then use he from then on. Nothing for either party to get upset over, spilled milk is more upsetting...
icebudgie21 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 18:46:50 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
We are a lot more chill about it. There is like a single person in he country that wants to be called "hรกn". I know a single trans person and he just introduced himself with his name and told me that he was trans. I've always thought of him as a guy but I can imagine that that is easier if you didn't know them before the transition.
royalstaircase ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:59:39 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
There are efforts to add gender neutral pronouns to the english language, because some people prefer not to be defined by male or female. This is what it's more about than transgender.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:08:57 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
This isn't really something that comes up for 99.9% of Americans either but I suppose there are some Timblrinas out there in real life somewhere
ClearlyClaire ยท -9 points ยท Posted at 18:47:35 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Well, the idea is that you ask everyone when you're either meeting them for the first time or haven't seen them in a while so they might have changed their mind. If we all just take telling our pronouns as a normal part of introducing ourselves then trans people won't have to feel hesitant or uncomfortable about telling someone what they prefer to be called.
[deleted] ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 20:10:46 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
That's idiotic though. You're suggesting that the 99% of people who aren't trans start announcing their gender pronouns to eachother in the off chance that someday there will be a trans person I the vicinity?
ClearlyClaire ยท -3 points ยท Posted at 21:22:15 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I personally don't feel comfortable assuming I know what someone wants to be called by just from looking at them. You don't have to do anything. No one is making anyone do this. I'm just saying that in my opinion it's a very small effort that can make a big difference for people. It's up to you whether or not you want to take that to heart. I just don't think it's fair for OP to shit on people for doing something to try to make others feel comfortable and safe around them.
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 23:59:18 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I'm still unclear. Are you running into trans people (who don't quite pass) all the time or do you ask normal people what pronoun they prefer?
ClearlyClaire ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 00:36:30 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I have no way of knowing whether someone I meet is trans or not so in general I will introduce myself with my own pronouns and ask for theirs. Of course most of the time if I'm meeting someone through mutual friends I'll already know what they prefer because of hearing someone refer to them using those pronouns so it's not necessary.
I wouldn't come up to someone, decide what I think their name is, and then call them by that name. I introduce myself and ask what their name is. Same goes for pronouns. It literally takes 2 seconds.
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 00:43:54 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Just trying to wrap my head around this. So you meet a new person and say, "Hi, my name is ClearlyClaire and I prefer female pronouns"? Do you get funny looks? I would imagine that unless you're ambiguously gendered yourself you'd get lots of funny looks for needing to point that out.
ClearlyClaire ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 01:58:28 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I've never met anyone in real life who's had any problem with it. And no, my appearance is not what one would consider androgynous.
obscene_banana ยท 9 points ยท Posted at 18:54:53 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Right, but the counterargument is that why should a person feel obligated to ask a trivial question about someone just to ease any possible discomfort? It wasn't my idea to separate pronouns based on gender, Finns basically just say "it" about people (and latin languages automatically use the male to resolve ambiguity or plurals). Nobody here gives a shit what gender you identify as, and nobody thinks twice to call someone the wrong pronoun, because it's just a pronoun.
I could get a bunch of flak from this, so let me just add -- I was called all kinds of wrong pronouns in my childhood. Having long hair I was mistaken for a girl quite often. Didn't phase me at least.
ClearlyClaire ยท -2 points ยท Posted at 19:05:38 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
No one is saying that anyone is obligated to do that. I personally think that it's a nice and considerate thing to do, but I meet people all the time who don't ask what my pronouns are and I've never like called them out on it or something. I just do it because I know that it can mean a lot to certain people and it doesn't take a lot of effort on my part. Also I'm aware that being called the wrong pronoun all the time can suck and I don't want to inadvertently do that to someone.
OP walked away from his old friend because they asked him what his pronouns were -- basically shitting all over them for the crime of trying to be considerate of his feelings. The main sentiment in this thread seems to be concern over being "forced" to give this courtesy to others. No one is making anyone do that. If seeing someone go the extra mile to be considerate of people's feelings makes you feel like you should do the same, maybe that's not such a bad thing.
pwaz ยท 165 points ยท Posted at 15:35:22 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Is this a thing? Can someone explain?
-porridgeface- ยท 412 points ยท Posted at 15:47:59 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Their gender pronouns are what they identify with so for example I am a woman and my preferred pronouns are she, her, hers, etc. Someone who is somewhere in between traditional genders would be their, they, them.
I mean I understand for people who are transitioning to the other sex because everyone has the ugly teen phase and sometimes it's hard to know. If it's mtf they'll want female pronouns and vice versa.
But then they're are those who don't have a gender or whatever and you get into the dragonkin gender fluid asexual. People just need to make things complicated.
*I used to spend a lot of time on Tumblr and so now I'm well versed. HA.
Marokiii ยท 309 points ยท Posted at 16:00:58 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
one of my former friends came out as a 'greyromantic pansexual' and refused to let anyone use either male or female gender pronouns for them. apparently it means they have infrequent romantic feelings and dont could identify as either gender when they feel like it to make it extra confusing for everyone around them.
it truly makes being friends with people who act like this impossible unless you believe the same things extremely strongly. it ruled every conversation with them and caused serious confrontations with anyone who didnt completely agree with their political and social views on the tissue.
KidCasey ยท 281 points ยท Posted at 16:26:40 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I mean, people can identify and do whatever they want. I don't care, that's your right. BUT I think it's selfish to expect everyone to take the time to learn your shit. Like, when I get a new job I don't expect everyone to learn everything about the place or industry I'm in so we can have a conversation about it.
iMakeSense ยท 19 points ยท Posted at 17:20:31 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I don't think that's quite right. I think the "problem" that I have with most people like this is that the amount of categories are too big and there's no consensus about what's correct.
Like if there was just "they/them" for people you're on the fence about, I get that. Like, I know enough to respect your decision without having to buy a book or scour the internet for a tome on how to identify whatever gender you choose.
rederister ยท -2 points ยท Posted at 23:41:25 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Then even they/them is plural and therefore gramatically incorrect. Honestly I just wish English had a respectful gender neutral pronoun premade into it. Like, you can't call someone an 'it' without being offensive.
iMakeSense ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 00:46:51 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
There are nouns, such as fish, that can be singular or plural. I don't really think there's a good, clean solution to this. The proposed ones are "they, them" - plural sounding "zhe,zir" - sounds like star-trek speak * - own pronouns - gotta memorize
rederister ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 01:08:31 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I mean, the easiest is we just use he or she. People pick whichever they think fits them best, and go with that. We just have so much associated with them now that people don't want to use them
DoctorStrange37 ยท 108 points ยท Posted at 16:44:19 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I feel like there are no starving third world people who are worried about which pronoun is used for when they are given food and water. Sometimes people need to get a reality check on what's really important.
If you are changing gender, super. If not, stop making it up and let everyone get on with it all.
RafikiNips ยท 112 points ยท Posted at 18:18:16 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I'm trans, at the start of all the physical transitioning stuff; and I get misgendered ALL. THE. TIME. but I've never flipped out over it, or made it a huge deal. It fucking happens. These super aggressive people claiming to be speaking for me and my rights can fuck right off. They're crazy and embarrass me more than they could ever help me.
[deleted] ยท 24 points ยท Posted at 19:38:22 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
dude all kinds of people get "misgendered" all the time. I'm a guy and I've been mistaken for a girl several times from the side and from behind. Why should I even give a shit. Only weak frail pussies would get butthurt over something so petty and frivilous.
I mean, I'm a LGBTQ ally myself, but furreal, fuck these piece of shit tumblr sjw dildos. They give anything they get involved with a bad name and a bad rep.
They're exactly like the bible-thumping stupid conservative christians they love to hate, they're just the opposite side of the same coin.
(I meant my response in a kinda "I'm agreeing with you" kind of context, not sure if that was clear or not)
IAmNewHereBeNice ยท 12 points ยท Posted at 23:19:00 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I'm trans, and there are two types of misgendering. One is accidental, and it doesn't bother me that much and then there is intentional misgendering, and that shit is inexcusable.
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 00:00:50 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It's best to assume goodwill from people- for two reasons;
most people aren't trying to attack you.
And if they are being intentionally dickish, being unreactive and cool about is the best way to behave anyway.
Remember: if you're in the right then you can be polite because you're correct.
If you're in the wrong then you should definitely be chill and polite.
RafikiNips ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 21:59:19 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
Haha man it's cool, I see exactly where you're coming from, and I agree with you 100%!
The SJWs do more harm than good for those they claim to stand for. Examples: Us big ol' trannies (most of us are normal, binary gendered peoplr and would prefer if they went away), Muslims (I have yet to hear an ex muslim defend the religion, and many of the women currently trapped in countries where the Islamic rules are law want nothing more than to be from its yet SJWs protect a religion that teaches hate), Body positivity (they encourage obesity & health problems that lead to death in many cases), and that's just a few.
They're absolute knobheads, and you're completely right, they're just the other side of the coin.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:29:18 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Is your username a homage to Rafiki from The Lion King
RafikiNips ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:46:19 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
YUUUUP
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:59:35 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
das cool.
wegsmijtaccount ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 07:49:29 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Would you say they are 'transsplaining' you?
RafikiNips ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 11:51:30 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I legit saw someone use the term "non-binary-splaining" over the weekend. They are slowly killing my soul.
the_littlest_killbot ยท 154 points ยท Posted at 17:12:19 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
While I agree with the point you're making, it's also kind of dangerous to pull the whole "well, think of the starving children in Africa..." card because we shouldn't be motivated to change our actions just because other people have it harder than ourselves. We should change our actions because its the moral thing to do.
DoctorStrange37 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 21:27:54 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I'm talking more towards the level of anger that people can raise to in an instant. Especially when it comes to the identities that make no sense that people are making up (e.g. owl). Realise that not everyone is going to understand this right away, and that it's not the end of the world if they get it wrong first time.
[deleted] ยท -10 points ยท Posted at 17:39:27 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Its not about changing actions or proving our own emotions invalid because someone has it worse somewhere else. It's about perspective, sure wrong pronouns could make someone upset and they have every right to feel the way they do but the "starving people" thing is more to get perspective and say "hey I know this bothers me but other people have much worse problems that I should maybe be a little happier about my own situation and realize that someone saying the wrong pronoun isn't too big of a deal"
diomedes03 ยท 21 points ยท Posted at 17:54:17 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It's certainly useful to maintain that kind of perspective on a personal level, but it seems counterproductive to use it in a debate about something. The "starving kids in Africa" argument is such a broad statement that can be applied to literally any issue in any first world country, which effectively makes it useless.
It always goes like this:
[brings up something they see as a problem]
"Yes, but people elsewhere have it worse!"
"...I'm aware of that. Are you changing the subject or being dismissive?"
KiritosWings ยท -2 points ยท Posted at 18:37:55 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I'd take it in a different way. Not to make the argument "People have it worse so you don't have a problem", but "People outside of our extreme level of comforts never have this issue, therefore it's probably not real and just made up so that you can feel like you have a problem."
If gender identity is a real issue and needing personal pronouns are a real issue, then you'd also see the people starving in Africa still having these same issues (probably not nearly as much as their other issues, but it would still be something they bring up).
diomedes03 ยท 13 points ยท Posted at 19:10:16 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I have a sneaking suspicion that the people making that argument know fuck all about people in Africa's personal identity issues.
KiritosWings ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 19:42:05 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Probably.
Marokiii ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 20:14:17 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
i always thought that argument wasnt a way to disregard what ever problem you are having by saying others have it worse, but a way to judge the severity of my problem and the response that i am giving it.
sure my problem should be addressed, but does it really need this high of a level of attention to solve it?
[deleted] ยท -7 points ยท Posted at 18:00:47 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
No no you missed what I was saying, it's not about saying that someone has it worse so suck it up. It's just trying to put perspective that may or may not make you feel better about your own situation.
DeathMetalDeath ยท 16 points ยท Posted at 18:15:38 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
No, he gets it. You don't.
diomedes03 ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 18:26:04 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Telling someone something that's extraordinarily obvious as if they haven't considered it isn't helpful, it's condescending.
iMakeSense ยท 34 points ยท Posted at 17:22:34 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Just because there are more important issues elsewhere doesn't discredit the validity of a problem.
You might be in American Prison for a crime you didn't commit, but at least you're not a woman under ISIS. Like, you see the problem with saying that? I'm sure there are a lot of valid problems people with genders that aren't man or woman face...like outside of Tumblr, irl.
DoctorStrange37 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 21:26:02 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Sure, I'm all for LGBT rights and all for people who are trans getting their true gender identified, but if your issue is people don't refer to you as the pronoun "owl" then I don't think that is comparable to a person in prison.
iMakeSense ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 00:44:40 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
There are some people who look like guys who wanna be called she vice versae. There are some people who don't identify as either. And there are some people who want to be owls. The latter is a small minority within a small minority. i don't really know about that, but lets not pretend that minority represents the majority when we're talking about this.
DoctorStrange37 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 08:01:56 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I was literally talking about the small minority
DeathMetalDeath ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 18:17:49 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
things are tough but at least you didn't get your face bit off by a baboon, or melted off in a fire.
bayerndj ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 22:09:16 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Wow, are you assuming I didn't get my face bit off by a baboon? How inconsiderate.
DeathMetalDeath ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 23:09:34 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I'm sorry, I may have been face-ist there.
Wannabkate ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 19:59:49 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
ummm... they actually care about it. They struggle to be seen as who they are just a much as we do here in the US.
IVIaskerade ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 01:07:56 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
And god knows even the most flighty of my friends keep a job longer than some of these people do their current word choice.
AsteriskCGY ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 17:02:46 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Eh, at some point we learned what not to call minorities.
crazycatchdude ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 18:38:50 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
[deleted]
Coal121 ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 19:03:13 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unlawfully_killed_transgender_people
crazycatchdude ยท -2 points ยท Posted at 19:13:29 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
[deleted]
HairyNutsack69 ยท -5 points ยท Posted at 22:31:39 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
these transgender peoples have mental illnesses, its sad for them tbh.
trollfriend ยท -5 points ยท Posted at 16:34:53 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I will call you based on the obvious signs. If you have a beard and a bulge in your pants and you talk with a deep voice, you're a he. If you have breasts, soft features and a feminine voice, you're a her.
I really don't care how you identify because to me that's not what you are biologically (or medically altered), and that's the only thing that would affect my mind.
purple_potatoes ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 18:13:34 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Clearly you have never met an androgenous person.
trollfriend ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 22:07:02 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
That might be the only case where I'll let them tell me what they prefer to be called. But I'm not going to ask them what they prefer to be called if they clearly look like either a man or a woman. I'm not talking about the anomalies here.
Jajoo ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 16:39:12 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
So if a bug burly dude asked you to use feminine pronouns for them you wouldn't do it?
Marokiii ยท 51 points ยท Posted at 16:45:24 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
sure, but i am not going to go up to the big burly dude when i meet him for the first time and ask him if he wants to be called a her.
Bruce_Wang ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 18:33:18 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I'd probably go out of my way to avoid using pronouns altogether at that point.
TwelfthCycle ยท -7 points ยท Posted at 17:53:40 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Probably not. Both because in this scenario hes making no effort to transition(not shaving, not dressing differently) and because I just don't care. You'll get the name when I'm talking to you, a sir or mam, or if you're between the two, just an "excuse me". You get the basic courtesy I give everyone else, I won't go out of my way to mess with you and I'll do the basic amount to help you. But don't mistake that for me giving two shits about how you identify or who you want to fuck.
Jajoo ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 18:25:57 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
Why doesn't basic courtesy extend to pronouns? Basic courtesy extends to calling one by their preferred name. If a person told you their name was Jim you wouldn't call them David because "you just don't care".
PM_ME_A_FACT ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 02:21:05 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
If your name was chad and you wanted to go by Tom, I would outright refuse to learn your preferred name. If it's not on your government issued ID I will not bend over backward for your selfishness.
MrWinks ยท 33 points ยท Posted at 17:43:45 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I'm going to be honest and actually speak rationally without scorn. I have a point, I promise. I'm glad trans people are being accepted generally and things are progressing for them. I think the extreme positions remind me of some I see in something I associate with that had somewhat of a worse stigma, before; veganism. The jokes it got and the people that represented it were pretty awful and incapable of thinking rationally and calmly. Lots of angry people. I think a lot of that has gone away enough that people are cool and vegans usually keep to themselves or don't make needless noise. My point is that I hope that for trans people it becomes the same and that these really ridiculous representations that make easy strawmen arguments for pronouns etc can be a thing of the past, mostly, and it could go on to be no big deal.
I hope my analogy makes sense.
sultry_somnambulist ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 19:46:31 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
It doesn't really. Extremism is forming a militia and occupying a government building. Being upset about a pronoun is, at worst, a false sense of entitlement. Blowing up an oil platform is extremism, being a vocal vegan is just annoying. If you for a second think that vocal vegans somehow in any way invalidate the issues that veganism points at you're just seeking any reason to act like a prick.
You being inconvenienced by someone's gender-whatever is nothing compared to the very real discrimination that a person like that might face. Which is why it is a silly subject for people on the internet to get upset about.
haironbae ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 20:17:29 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
"I disagree with you so you are a prick"
Guess what? Custom pronouns are stupid and they will never be adapted. Trans people are being negatively affected by the special little snowflakes who are making up pronouns. We live in a serious world and you can't FORCE other people to cater to your will, EVEN if you are being discriminated against.
sultry_somnambulist ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 20:22:59 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I'm not really sure you understand my post. I don't even disagree with what you're saying. What I said was that this is no reason for you to be upset. Go and help transgendered people get their rights, stop being upset about people on the internet.
And of course emancipation always involves a degree of force. If you're taking rights for yourself you're going to run into opposition.
[deleted] ยท 12 points ยท Posted at 17:40:25 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
That person doesn't know what pansexual means.
DeathMetalDeath ยท 10 points ยท Posted at 18:18:53 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
i bet he would argue for hours with you on that point.
Iramohs ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 19:05:58 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It means you're in a peruvian flute band.
GetSomm ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 19:23:28 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I thought it mean you were sexually attracted to pans?
ppizzappizzappizza ยท 15 points ยท Posted at 18:26:45 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Is it really that hard thought to use whatever pronouns they prefer? Like its okay to mess up here and there but it really isn't super difficult to refer to someone as they once you do it a couple times.
justcailen ยท 62 points ยท Posted at 16:25:45 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Using "they" pronouns is actually really fucking easy.
[deleted] ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 16:45:37 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It's also typically used as a plural pronoun, which makes it grammatically difficult to use.
Snoopy_Hates_Germans ยท 73 points ยท Posted at 17:51:49 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Except that it's been used as a genderless singular English pronoun since the time of Shakespeare, so...
[deleted] ยท -8 points ยท Posted at 18:46:57 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
The Chicago style manual, Purdue OWL and APA all recommend to not use "they" as a singular pronoun. It's especially difficult because the him/herself equivalent is "themself," which people are unfamiliar with. People who use "they" are gramatically incorrect, at least for now.
ShallowBasketcase ยท 20 points ยท Posted at 19:15:44 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
who cares what the Chicago Style Manual says when you're just having casual conversation?
If you think people policing pronouns are annoying, imagine if people started holding you to APA standards in conversation.
[deleted] ยท -9 points ยท Posted at 19:20:01 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I don't correct people who use "they" as a singular pronoun, I just said it was grammatically incorrect. People (myself included) make grammar mistakes in casual conversation all the time, but that doesn't invalidate grammar itself.
Snoopy_Hates_Germans ยท 14 points ยท Posted at 18:55:32 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Given that those style guides disagree on plenty of grammatical minutiae, I don't think it's appropriate to reference them as a final authority on whether singular neuter pronoun usage is "incorrect."
[deleted] ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 18:57:26 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
In that case, what qualifies something as grammatically incorrect?
Snoopy_Hates_Germans ยท 16 points ยท Posted at 19:04:37 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Nothing, really.
"I can will talked like these and mine meaning still was being understanded. These were the miracle of language. "
Usage evolves, forms vary, idiosyncrasies develop, and our language culture is all the richer for it. Honestly, I would say that punctuation and spelling (mostly of homophones) are far more vital components of grammar than prescriptivism over "have/got," "he/she/they," or things like "ain't." Everything else is flexible.
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 19:18:04 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
So, why even bother having style guides?
Snoopy_Hates_Germans ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 19:35:21 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Because in some situations -- most usually formal writing with a clear and direct purpose, e.g. scholarly essays or newspaper articles -- having a style guide can help make your writing as regimented and unambiguous as possible. For copyeditors and publishing staff, especially, having a unified set of rules can help them make sure that all the pieces they publish fit a unified style -- literally why they're called "style guides, incidentally -- for brand identity, consistency and professionalism. For example, The New Yorker uses a diaeresis (two little dots above a letter) with consecutive voiced vowels. They spell cooperate as coรถperate, for example. It's a bizarre editing choice, but it's grammatically and stylistically correct under their own editorial guidelines.
For some languages -- Japanese, for instance -- a unified, centrally mandated style helps guide their writing system and all the related aspects: everything from education standards to newspaper readability to public transport signage to legal documents. Since English lacks a central authority, however, we have various style guides and dictionaries, each with their own appendices and errata, to deal with, none of which fully account for the flexibility and variability of English.
TL;DR for all of this -- basically, style guides exist for the benefit of people who want to try and implement a certain style across certain limited situations, but the style guides aren't and can't fully account for the breadth and variability of English.
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 19:37:42 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
So, would you use a singular they in formal writing? I get using one in conversation, it's essays and such that trip me up. Also, thanks for the detailed responses.
Snoopy_Hates_Germans ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 19:48:01 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I would say a singular they in formal writing would be perfectly acceptable if you're writing about a person who has indicated that "They" is their preferred gender. For writing about a situation where the identity of the person in question is unknown, I feel like most journalistic style guides would encourage you to use "a/the person" rather than a pronoun, but once that has been predicated, "they" would work just fine. I can easily make up an example for you now.
throwyourshieldred ยท -5 points ยท Posted at 17:16:23 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Yeah, it's so difficult, saying words.
[deleted] ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 17:46:58 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
[deleted]
throwyourshieldred ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 18:38:36 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
So saying they instead of her is actually difficult for you?
[deleted] ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 18:48:46 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Maybe they isn't used to it.
throwyourshieldred ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 18:49:50 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
They aren't*
Look, easy. Just keep practicing, you'll get it eventually.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 18:59:44 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Are: 2nd person singular present and 1st, 2nd, 3rd person plural present ofย be.
Are is plural in this situation, so "they are" is only correct if "they" is plural.
throwyourshieldred ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 19:05:44 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
In this situation, they is singular, so no your context is incorrect. You should pay attention in class.
[deleted] ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 19:16:59 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
That's exactly my point! "They" is singular, so it has to match up with a singular linking verb. That verb happens to be "is."
"Maybe they isn't used to it."
See how that sounds? This is why I don't use "they" as a singular pronoun.
throwyourshieldred ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 19:19:15 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Are can also be singular. Example:
You are bad at grammar.
[deleted] ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 19:21:45 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
That's second person singular, which is different.
You are not reading my comments fully, or you just don't care
throwyourshieldred ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 19:22:50 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I'm reading them. But they're incorrect. I'm correcting you.
[deleted] ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 19:35:27 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Let me explain this again.
"He" and "she" are singular third person pronouns.
"Is" is the correct linking verb for singular third person pronouns.
"You" is a singular second person pronoun.
"Are" is the correct linking verb for singular second person pronouns.
"They" is a third person plural pronoun.
"Are" is the correct linking verb for third person plural pronouns.
Now, lets switch this up a bit. Let's say for now that "they" is a singular third person pronoun
"He", "she", and "they" are singular third person pronouns.
"Is" is the correct linking verb for singular third person pronouns.
If "they" is a third person singular pronoun, the correct linking verb is "is"
throwyourshieldred ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 19:38:55 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Your explanations all ignore the fact that they can also be a singular pronoun. So again, wrong.
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 19:39:54 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
No they don't. Read my most recent one again, please. If "they" is singular, you must use "is".
throwyourshieldred ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 19:47:30 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You also didn't include the word "are," which can also be singular. Are you done?
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:50:05 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I'm beginning to think you're messing with me. It's in the same response
throwyourshieldred ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 19:59:00 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Yeah, with the context that proves you wrong missing. I know this because someone else in this thread explained it to you and you thanked them. If you like, I can link to that, but I don't think your memory of what happened less than an hour ago is that bad.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:03:09 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Link it please
throwyourshieldred ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 20:11:03 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Really? We're doing this? This comment thread was directly under mine, but okay Dora.
https://www.reddit.com/r/reactiongifs/comments/56m7d8/mrw_im_catching_up_with_an_old_friend_and_she/d8koan9
Thanks goes to u/snoopy_hates_germans for being more patient, intelligent, and sober than I.
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 20:16:37 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
That in no way covers whether to use "is" or "are."
PublicToast ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 18:51:02 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I think its less grammatically difficult to use words that don't exist tbh.
noage ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 16:46:06 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
"They" is plural, though, isn't it?
soxandpatriots1 ยท 54 points ยท Posted at 16:58:17 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
it is acceptable as a singular pronoun when you don't know the gender of the person. Such as "I saw the driver side-swipe a parked car, and then they just drove away!"
Just thinking of a somewhat common scenario when you might not know the gender, but there are plenty of other applicable scenarios.
nf5 ยท -2 points ยท Posted at 17:07:31 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
Yes it is
co99950 ยท -3 points ยท Posted at 18:42:46 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Iirc some people identify as multiple people. Headmates and what not.
DeathMetalDeath ยท -3 points ยท Posted at 18:20:53 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Maybe they are two people. Is that allowed? can we identify as multiple people in one? Seems like that could be a thing
QueefLatinaTheThird ยท -8 points ยท Posted at 17:28:10 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I had this argument a while ago. There are definitely instances where it's implied that it's plural, but all you're going to get for answers is people giving examples where it makes sense and not addressing the ones where it doesn't. The good news is these retards don't seem to exist outside the internet.
billyvnilly ยท -8 points ยท Posted at 16:33:50 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
So is using 'it'
Snark-Shark ยท 40 points ยท Posted at 16:45:54 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
They're equally easy to use and one is less insulting than the other. Like the difference between 'Chinese man' and Chinaman.
Sully1102 ยท 29 points ยท Posted at 16:57:47 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
The chinaman is not the issue here.
[deleted] ยท -15 points ยท Posted at 16:54:17 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
What if you're like me and you don't give a shit?
throwyourshieldred ยท 24 points ยท Posted at 17:18:26 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Then it doesn't matter, as you wouldn't care if they didn't want to speak to you and they would probably not want to speak to you either.
But what if you had a loved one who came out as trans? Would you give a shit then?
TwelfthCycle ยท -3 points ยท Posted at 17:58:57 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I'm really getting tired of this argument. It's just an emotional appeal, "You do love your kids right? What kind of a fucking asshole doesn't love their kids regardless? Well, now your kid is trans, you better fucking love him still, because otherwise you're a shit. So you have to love his trans self."
My sister is studying some pointless shit for her masters. I still love her. Her studies are still fucking stupid. Luckily I can differentiate between her decisions and my feelings for her as a person.
throwyourshieldred ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 18:42:27 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I was asking a literal question. No one is asking about what you think is smart or normal. This conversation about pronouns is about common courtesy and being a decent human being.
roger_van_zant ยท -4 points ยท Posted at 17:48:33 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
If my son came out as a chinaman i'd say that was ok.
throwyourshieldred ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 18:38:55 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
So progressive.
[deleted] ยท -15 points ยท Posted at 17:39:16 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I'd say good for you, now don't let your transgenderism be the sole way in which you define your life, which I think is the problem with all of this stuff.
Snoopy_Hates_Germans ยท 19 points ยท Posted at 17:58:46 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
This is the exact sort of attitude that people mean when they say "check your privilege." You have the luxury of not having to worry about your sexuality or gender expression because you're (very likely) a heterosexual person whose gender expression matches the genitalia you were born with.
For people who feel conflicted, trapped or uncomfortable with their bodies and try to alter their gender expression to better match their internal feelings, there's a much greater effort needed to deal with all the pressures and prejudices of society. By extension, their sexuality and gender identity becomes comparatively more central to their lives.
In a progressive and accepting society, a person's gender identity wouldn't make any sort of difference to their perceived social value, and it wouldn't be such a point of interest, but in a society where we have people who are -- for all practical purposes -- women being refused access to women's restrooms, or vice versa, then it shows that we as a society haven't moved to a place where people with nontraditional gender expressions are able to do anything but fight desperately for societal acceptance and have the luxury of not "making a big deal" about who they are as people.
Snark-Shark ยท 12 points ยท Posted at 17:05:59 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
If you really don't give a shit then why speak at all.
Marokiii ยท -11 points ยท Posted at 16:46:38 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
'they' also means more than one person. so if im talking about what a single person has done, they is not a proper use of the english language to do it with.
edit: its the definition in the dictionary people, get over yourselves. no where in there does it talk about single use for people when gender isnt known. its talking about groups of 2 or more people, or in abstract terms when the number of people isnt defined, or talking in the 3rd person.
Tonamel ยท 16 points ยท Posted at 17:25:34 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
How about the Oxford English Dictionary?
soxandpatriots1 ยท 12 points ยท Posted at 16:59:12 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
"They" is acceptable as a singular pronoun when the sex/gender of the person is unknown or unspecified.
justcailen ยท 16 points ยท Posted at 17:02:53 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
That's not really true though? They/Them pronouns have been accepted for use of someone with an unknown gender for centuries.
They
"I was talking to a redditor who would rather be pedantic about language than respect someone's gender identity. I'm not sure why THEY thought like that."
Also language is fluid and again using "they" pronouns is really fucking easy.
QueefLatinaTheThird ยท -6 points ยท Posted at 17:29:39 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
centuries you say?
justcailen ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 17:40:22 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I linked to the Oxford dictionary which states that they/them pronouns have been used to describe someone of "unspecified gender" since the 16th century.
Bess95 ยท 9 points ยท Posted at 16:57:26 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
'They' has been used as a singular pronoun for a long time https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender-specific_and_gender-neutral_pronouns#Singular_they
QueefLatinaTheThird ยท -14 points ยท Posted at 17:29:22 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You're reference material is literally something that gets edited by people who live on the internet with no lives.
Bess95 ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 17:36:09 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Why does that make it less true? In fact, if they have no lives then it means they'll put a lot into editing it and making sure everythings correct
QueefLatinaTheThird ยท -4 points ยท Posted at 17:39:40 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Because its literally something that was made by the people who are trying to turn this shit into fact.
throwyourshieldred ยท 10 points ยท Posted at 17:34:55 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
"It doesn't support my narrative, so the people who use it are losers."
Guffbrain ยท -3 points ยท Posted at 17:37:39 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Actually, no isn't. If we spoke a non-gendered language then yes, it would be. But we don't, so it isn't.
bialyorzel01 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 03:27:26 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
At first I thought I was just lonely and bitter. Now I know I'm actually greyromantic. What a relief.
[deleted] ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 17:36:46 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I understand it but it goes a bit too far to also ask what the preferred gender pronoun is for a tissue.
thepresidentsturtle ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 20:46:56 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
That doesn't mean they aren't one of two genders, from an outside perspective. Let's say your friend was born male. Infrequent romantic feelings. So, what, they rarely have feelings for others, but when they do, it doesn't matter if they are male or female? That sounds bisexual. Nothing wrong with that.
Identify as either gender when they feel like it. That doesn't mean anything. They have their gender, and one day they are male and other days they are female. Or maybe they are just males who want to act like females. As in, dress like one, talk like one, whatever. That's still a male acting like a female. You can't just say you're a woman and that makes you a woman. That is incredibly offensive to people who actually suffer from gender dysphoria, a medically proven to exist condition where a person has a typically female brain inside a man's body. People who actually undergo serious medical procedures to feel comfortable in their skin, then you get some obnoxious 'special snowflake' moron, who has probably never done a days work in their life, have no idea how the world works and would absolutely try to get offended by everything. Tough break, life isn't fair and you aren't unique. There's 7 billion people in this world and I'm not going to give special treatment to people who don't deserve it.
Zargabraath ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 02:57:28 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Sounds like a severe personality disorder if not outright mental illness
TwelfthCycle ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 17:46:00 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Oh so you mean they're a narcissist. Only logical conclusion that I could draw from that. "ME ME PAY ATTENTION TO MEEEEE!!!"
OnlinePosterPerson ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 18:38:49 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Was this a girl or a guy?
Marokiii ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 18:51:49 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
a girl, but according to her she was neither.
fdsa4327 ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 22:15:16 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
simple.
ostracize them
this person as currently existant will never matter in the world and is literally a waste of your time and psychological well being
hagschlag ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 22:23:19 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
this was my ex-girlfriend. She would always bring up her political and social views in conversations. Always using others as springboards to shove SJW ideals down people's throats.
Then she decided that she wanted to be called by "they, them" Wasn't a problem for me, but I didn't want to be with someone like that. So, I left her.. I mean THEM.
Numbuh7 ยท 56 points ยท Posted at 15:58:48 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Does anyone trans on tumblr actually accept people who identify as [whatever]kin? I've literally never seen anyone on side of it in the years I've used it, and the people who do use them are normally just as RPs.
Stabbytehstabber ยท 103 points ยท Posted at 16:14:11 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Unfortunately, I have. I was politely asked to leave an LGBT group because I didn't want to use a person's owl pronouns.
NUTS_STUCK_TO_LEG ยท 257 points ยท Posted at 16:17:55 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
How did that conversation go?
"Julia identifies as an owl"
"Who?"
"Get out"
Stabbytehstabber ยท 133 points ยท Posted at 16:23:49 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Hahahaha, I wish.
It was basically we were introducing ourselves and when we got to her she said that she went by Artemis and her pronouns were owl/owl's/owlself. A lot of people just kinda glared or looked incredulously at her but, I being the confrontational bitch that I am, asked her if she genuinely wanted us to refer to her that way with a very skeptical look on my face. Afterwards, the group leader/club president person took me aside and informed me that my prejudice was not needed in this group and it might be best if I not return.
Sea-Salt ยท 50 points ยท Posted at 17:34:53 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Were these people not aware that owls also are split between males and females? You know, just like most advanced lifeforms on this planet.
keyree ยท 38 points ยท Posted at 18:26:45 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
That's what I don't get. You can't just take a noun and make it into a pronoun.
[deleted] ยท 107 points ยท Posted at 16:33:15 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Well owl be damned.
DoctorStrange37 ยท 13 points ยท Posted at 16:45:14 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Hiyooooo hoooot hoot
idontpostonreddit ยท 45 points ยท Posted at 17:26:41 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
If someone ever said this to me I would immediately think I was being trolled. I'm all for respecting people and their lives, but there's a certain point where I'm no longer sure I'm respecting human intelligence by giving into this weird stuff.
nuclearfeet ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 20:25:36 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Poe's Law. I can't even tell when something is satire anymore.
Zeldafan26 ยท 39 points ยท Posted at 16:33:35 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Congratulations on getting out of there.
Robo-Erotica ยท 14 points ยท Posted at 17:29:05 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Where did this happen? From living with radical political queers, they make fun of this kinda shit all the time
ArmanDoesStuff ยท 29 points ยท Posted at 16:35:38 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You should have screamed wildly about identifying as shitlord-kin.
FlirtySanchez ยท 34 points ยท Posted at 16:45:58 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Shit/shit's/Shitself.
VinylPortable ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 20:16:32 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Xim/Xey/Xer.
A legit shitlord I saw on Tumblr once.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:02:23 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Oh, that's Julia the shitlord over there. Shit's been coming here for about a year. Apparently, shit has a hard time being accepted even though shit's super nice.
kickass404 ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 17:56:04 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I identify as the Supreme Leader, please use The Sex God/Your grace/Supreme Leader
darkscottishloch ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 19:23:07 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I really feel like you were the winner in that situation.
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 23:41:20 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Sounds like they were in the business of building echo chambers.
portodhamma ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 05:27:32 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Five bucks the club president is a furry running the place like a personal fiefdom. I know how the politics can be in those kind of groups.
I was in a club where we had to pretty much run off the administrators. They bailed with like $1000 of club money. We didn't pursue because they caused so much drama $1000 was a small price to pay to get them to leave us alone.
Sully1102 ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 16:58:50 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Sounds like a real hoot.
Coal121 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 19:10:48 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I'm a furry with a couple of trans friends and asking people to call you "owlself" is pretty dumb. Being kicked out is even dumber. Not to mention naming yourself after a god is pretty presumptuous.
nerfviking ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:00:57 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I wonder if the group was being trolled.
Ninja122593 ยท 10 points ยท Posted at 16:21:24 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I doubt it went this way, but I will believe it did anyways.
QueefLatinaTheThird ยท 16 points ยท Posted at 17:31:38 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
LMFAO. How inclusive of them. Making people leave.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 04:11:06 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I can understand them asking you to leave. I know that otherkin are basically an excuse to shit on trans* people but we need to treat them with respect.
A lot of otherkin use it as a coping mechanism for mental illness, if that makes them feel more comfortable then in certain situations, like in certain safe spaces(inb4 reddit shits on safe spaces becuz 2reel2fast world).
I think the otherkin thing is a problem to be completely honest, but it has to be treated with kindness or we risk further alienating people that are merely misguided.
Stabbytehstabber ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 05:24:05 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
The issue is that their inability to cope with their problems reflects negatively on me. I have met so so many people who hate trans people because they met one delusional person who demanded that they use owl pronouns. I refuse to indulge it at the expense of my own credibility no matter how alienated they feel.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 07:08:27 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I totally understand, i know how you feel i felt the same way up until recently.
HeyShorty ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 16:26:02 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Please tell more, full story.
[deleted] ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 07:14:30 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
[deleted]
Stabbytehstabber ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 12:54:04 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I'm comfortable with that.
ehsteve23 ยท 19 points ยท Posted at 17:38:21 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
No, from what I've seen, other kin and transtrenders are usually teenagers trying to be cool and end up making it hard for actual trans people.
[deleted] ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 04:17:11 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
What do you mean transtrenders?
caliburdeath ยท 12 points ยท Posted at 19:40:49 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
well, yeah, but most otherkin is using it as a coping mechanism for their mental illnesses. And the rest of the cases are p much either a religious thing (eg past lives), or as simple as "I feel a special affinity to this thing". Nothing worth going against.
Nonbinary is completely unrelated to otherkin. And pansexual and greyromantic are also completely unrelated to either of those things.
Nonbinary are people who don't feel like either male or female is accurate for them. I assume you'll need more info on this but I have to think how to say it.
Pansexual is basically just a term for bisexual that includes nonbinary people.
asexual/aromantic, and derivatives such as greyromantic, are modifiers on how much of that type of attraction you feel- so for instance a greyromantic pansexual would, I guess be sexually attracted to people of all genders, but only ever feel any romantic attraction to people they've known for a long time. there's a lot of contention on whether asexual and aromantic should be included in lgbt+, and it's probably not necessary for people to 'come out' as. And it's not really necessary for you to know details of this.
Numbuh7 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:43:32 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Yeah I totally get otherkin as like a coping mechanism, just didn't know how to phrase it. And I'm trans and pan myself, and a bunch of my friends are non-binary and/or ace, but I'm not sure how that's related?
caliburdeath ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:48:38 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
ah alright. Hopefully my post will help inform other people then. the anti-tumblrs conflate otherkin with NB and pan and and ace and even binary trans. and this bleeds to the neutrals, but hopefully if we just tell them what those things actually mean they won't be shitty about it.
[deleted] ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 16:28:48 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
From my personal experience, no, but I'm sure there's a community on there that does. It's honestly all about who you follow and talk to, just like Reddit.
nuclearfeet ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:28:07 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I actually identify as someone who is a lot better looking and has more personal wealth than myself. I appreciate being addressed as such.
Tawaubast ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 21:39:44 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I'm probably going to be downvoted, but as somebody who has been in the therian community for at least 15 years now, tumblr doesn't know what they are talking about. Otherkin is not a gender and is not a coping mechanism. The kids that participate in this aren't loved by the bigger community for the misinformation they have spread. I'm not gonna call you by cat pronouns, nope and never.
RyanB_ ยท -5 points ยท Posted at 16:16:21 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Not really
Source: have a tumblr-sexual friend who has many other tumblr-trans friends, none of whom take whatever-kin seriously.
gafftaped ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 21:16:15 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
From what I've seen typically they don't. The sane people on Tumblr who support LGBTQ stuff usually only tolerate he/she/them pronouns. You can identify as a man, woman, or inbetween/none, but I'm not pretending you're a fucking turtle okay?
moeburn ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 18:34:09 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Hey I've got no problem using different gender pronouns if it truly makes someone feel more comfortable - no skin off my back.
The problem comes when people angrily want to punish someone for using the wrong pronouns, and mislabel their anger as "discomfort".
falconbox ยท 56 points ยท Posted at 16:24:19 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
http://i.imgur.com/lM8gOHt.png
sagev3 ยท 133 points ยท Posted at 16:52:57 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Look, transgender people aren't happy about it either. The whole dragonkin, otherkin stuff trivializes what shitty issues trans people actually go through. So don't leave us pls, you're our only hope.
NoMouseville ยท 38 points ยท Posted at 17:25:01 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Yeah, it's a pretty crap situation for trans folks. It's not dissimilar to the gay marriage issue, when polygamists pipe themselves up and muddy the waters. The LGBT rights movement has enough problems as it is without adding to it, especially (in the case of beastkin and such) teenage fad crap.
sagev3 ยท 29 points ยท Posted at 17:31:36 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It seems a bit of an issue lately. People just want to be cool in some fashion so they say they're x when they absolutely aren't and haven't felt what actual gender dysphoria is in the slightest.
It's a shame, because all it does is cause a negative perception for those who actually live with this. Because, believe it or not, we generally just want to be left alone or treated like everyone else, not get special treatment.
NoMouseville ยท 20 points ยท Posted at 17:33:40 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I guess it's a good sign that one doesn't often hear of otherkin outside of the internet while the core LGBT community is making amazing strides in the past few years.
sagev3 ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 17:36:34 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It really depends on where you go, but you're right. Things have been a lot better in recent years, even in the more backwards states.
AgnosticThalassocnus ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 18:41:52 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
As a trans woman living in central Texas, I can attest to that. While there are still plenty of transphobic people in the South, the younger generations are generally very accepting, especially in the urban areas.
sagev3 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 18:45:04 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I've noticed the same in Indiana (outside of Indianapolis). Indiana being a state notorious for some of the laws passed or proposed, and having one of the worst governors in history in Mike Pence.
Generally even the older generations of people don't mind too much. They just go about their business and will be respectful of you in most situations. The reason we feel like there's so much adversity is due to the fact that adversity stands out more in our minds/memories than kindness. Which you could say is a problem in itself.
AgnosticThalassocnus ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:27:17 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It really annoys me that people suddenly have all these strong opinions on the matter, when a few years ago no one really seemed to care. Trans people have been using public bathrooms for a very long time without incident. Sure, I would like legal protections against discrimination, but that doesn't mean I have to have strong opinions on Caitlyn Jenner or any other trans figure.
co99950 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 18:46:01 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Didn't they add gender queen onto LGBT? Seems kinda sexist to me.
sagev3 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 19:00:41 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
This is why I just call it SOGI (pronounced so gee, rather than soggy). Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity. I can't be arsed to add more fucking letters to an already annoying acronym for a group of people. LGBTQNILABCDEF
Hexofin ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 07:27:14 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
That is a really good acronym.
XProAssasin21X ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 21:03:41 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
To be fair, a lot of those "Tumblr types" identify as that as almost a stepping stone to coming out as trans.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 07:12:23 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
how can it be a crap situation for trans folks? making a choice about what you identify as should be respected no matter what choice you make. there should be no stigma for someone that identifies as a woman or as a dragon wolf or whatever.
NoMouseville ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 01:28:16 on October 11, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Because trans people are struggling to gain identity in a world that already stigmatizes them as it is, adding people who indentify as unicorns just gives opponents to trans acceptance something to latch onto.
I also, personally, do not believe most (if any) identify with dragons and unicorns and so on. It's ludicrous.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 04:37:18 on October 11, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
could the same thing be said about trans people? where is the line drawn on identity politics between ludicrous and ______phobic? the act of chosing a new "identity" deserves the same level of scrutiny as what you actually choose to identify as. i'm not trying to be a troll or a bigot i'm just honestly perplexed at where the buck stops because it seems like a slippery slope.
NoMouseville ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 12:23:35 on October 11, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
There's a difference between choosing to identify as something and actually identifying with it. There are plenty of psychological studies on people feeling that they are of the opposite gender. There are none on people feeling that they are dragons because dragons do not exist.
For me, and I hope for the majority of the world, the gender 'choice' is simply the freedom to live your life as the sex you identify with, not the one you choose because you prefer the shoes.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:03:56 on October 11, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
i understand your position and thank you for an honest reply. i usually ask questions and get nothing but insults back. usually on reddit having a different opinion ends up being called a (insert whatever)-phobic bigot buzzword other buzzword and then tons of other comments virtue signaling against the option of having a differing opinion. thanks again for civil discussion. reddit could learn a thing or two from you. cheers.
Dysfu ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 20:22:01 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It's ironic because at a time the gay and lesbian community actually were transphobic and believed the same thing that Trans* people were trivializing their own movement.
I totally agree with you that dragon/otherkin are ridiculous, especially when it comes to their pronouns but it's interesting how "fringe" groups become normalized in society and then immediately shift to say "oh we're nothing like those people. They're weird"
It kind of shows that society is legitimizing their argument. I wonder if in 20 years we will be accepting the otherkin nonsense as just another facet to our culture.
sagev3 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 22:12:31 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Well that would be a nice thought, except for the fact that otherkin has no scientific backing unlike being transgender, bisexual, or homosexual. I get your point completely, but otherkin just has nothing to stand on other than the fact that someone wanted to be cool one day and said they were a fox.
DragonMeme ยท 14 points ยท Posted at 18:48:31 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
As someone who's genderfluid, I find it infuriating. If there was a widely used gender-neutral pronoun, I'd want people to use it, but the fact is that there isn't. I appear like a woman, so people use female pronouns. It's not like they're trying to insult me. But people using these ridiculous classifications just makes it impossible to be taken seriously. It's like the severe overuse of the word "trigger".
gafftaped ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 21:18:40 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I'm the same way. I'd probably identify as genderfluid when it came down to it, but I appear more female than anything. I'm not upset if people call me female pronouns, but if people want to call me they/them instead it'd be awesome.
Tonamel ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 06:09:25 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
"They" has been used for exactly this purpose for hundreds of years. It is English's singular, gender-ambiguous pronoun. Shakespeare used it. Jane Austen used it. Everybody uses it.
DragonMeme ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 13:35:45 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Only in referring to people where the gender is unknown. (I got a letter from the delivery man. They left it on the porch). It is very rarely used with specific people where the gender is known or assumed.
Tonamel ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 14:18:21 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding something, but doesn't that make it even more appropriate to use for someone who's gender fluid (gender identity varies over time)?
DragonMeme ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 15:48:47 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
My point isn't that it is or isn't appropriate. My point is the common usage. They/them/etc is almost never used to refer to specific people. If I went by these pronouns, I would be constantly correcting people because this is not a common way to use them. They wouldn't be doing out of malice.
Again, because I present the way I do, I don't really mind female pronouns. So it's not really worth the effort to insist otherwise.
Tonamel ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 16:04:14 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Ah, I see what you're saying now. That's fair.
sagev3 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 18:55:15 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Well our issues are with SJWs without trying to sound like some edgy kid. They do cause issues where there don't need to be for any situation, for women, for transgender people, for gay/bi people, for liberals even. Trigger is a word that has a good meaning behind it, but like you said, due to its severe overuse it has a very negative connotation to it now that it can't be used without being vilified or ridiculed. The only thing we can do is try to stay calm and educate anyone about our situation. And show them we hate the same things they do. When people can relate with you, it makes a world of difference.
brifer_350 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 02:46:02 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
A part if me feels like these dragonkins are the equivalent to angsty pre-teens that are just looking for any attention they can get. There's the phrase "first world problems" we should start implementing "sjw" problems. But in my opinion it definitely trivializes the issues trans people are going through and they are no better than the people they admonish
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 04:15:26 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I agree, but i think we need to be nice to the otherkin folk.
You don't make someone that is sick better by saying they are insane and all that :/
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 07:12:20 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
it is a slippery slope. identity politics and all that.
QueefLatinaTheThird ยท -3 points ยท Posted at 17:30:49 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Don't you think the non-binary do as well? Like I'm too special to have a gender. The whole I'm "trans" but I didn't transition to anything
sagev3 ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 17:41:50 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Umm, I honestly couldn't say I feel that way. I've worked with non-binary people in the past, and they seem to have similar issues that we do. I think I would prefer to withhold an opinion on the matter until there's enough scientific evidence to support one way or the other.
As it stands, there's really only a lot of evidence supporting those who experience gender dysphoria in such a way that they were born with a gender that doesn't correspond to their sex. Basically all of the scientific evidence to support this is shown in the brain (i.e. those who are MtF seem to have brain patterns similar if not identical to cis women, and vice versa for FtM people). Now I can't say for certain that there isn't some study that shows non-binary proof in brain patterns, etc. so either way I can't say for certain.
I will say this though, that all of the non binary people I have been close to in the past, later realized they were just FtM instead of agender/genderqueer/nonbinary. So take that how you will ยฏ_(ใ)_/ยฏ
haironbae ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 20:27:08 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I'd consider locking down LGBT to mean exactly that then. If you have no limits on what your group is, it will become anything but what it was meant to be.
LGBTQIA+ is nonsensical since what it involves is not defined. I, as a rational person, can not support a group that has undefined motives since it may now, or in the future, represent something I do not believe in. I am against marriage-polygamy, bestiality, pedophilia, custom genders, etc etc so I can not, and will not, ever support a group that is "open" to all sexuality since so many of these behaviors are highly damaging.
sagev3 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 22:24:50 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I personally don't have any issue with polygamy, or marriage-polygamy for that matter, but I agree with you on the rest. Custom genders is just a way for someone to feel like they matter, or are helping, or are cool with the new fad, or etc. They don't realize the damage they're causing.
Now going into the other things you've mentioned, bestiality and pedophilia, and whatever vile act to compare with those, there's absolutely no way anything like that would ever be supported due to these things being reprehensible and immoral.
Either way, I don't really bother with this stuff too much.
haironbae ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:49:52 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I am not comparing those abhorrent behaviors to normal ones. Just that when you have a fully open group, there is no way for others to know what it includes.
electric-blue ยท 14 points ยท Posted at 18:50:08 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Why are you using 'asexual' as an example of the extremities of sexualities? I agree that X-Kin is fairly ridiculous, but I fail to see how a sexuality isn't valid.
skytomorrownow ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 18:54:22 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
The easiest way to get around all of this pronoun stuff is to just call people by their name.
[deleted] ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 04:16:08 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
and that is a quick way for me to think you are selling something tbh
The_sad_zebra ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 21:42:29 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I do my best to be respectful and understanding of all this stuff, but shit, this is getting hard to keep up with.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:55:45 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Do you get any special powers if you become dragonkin? It sounds kind of appealing.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:13:17 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
But if OP is a normal dude (as the gif suggests) why would she ask him this?
2daMooon ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:23:55 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
But why would she need to know for a conversations between two people?
buddybiscuit ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:37:10 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Can you imagine explaining this to a lumberjack in rural Idaho in 1850s or something?
-porridgeface- ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:08:03 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Hahaha! The look on his face would be priceless.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 07:02:25 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I highly doubt you're encountering that many "dragonkin" people in your daily life...
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 17:34:33 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
correction, people just need attention.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 18:39:41 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
there's only two genders
OhCleo ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 17:12:10 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I truly never understood the need for 'ze' or 'zim' or however that one goes.
I might start asking people to use my name for pronouns. She/her = OhCleo/OhCleo.
OhCleo said OhCleo is going to walk OhCleo's dog after OhCleo finishes OhCleo's dinner. Muahahahaha!
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:03:44 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
If I recall correctly, the worlds their, they, and them are supposed to be used exclusively for plural cases. So, although you might say, "DMH838 left a comment, I don't like them," it is technically incorrect and should be, "I don't like him or her." Generally nobody says that because it adds unneeded length to sentences unless it is a formal speech or writing.
You also don't use "it" for these cases, I forget the technical reason for it. However, I wonder if someone whom identifies as not having a gender should be called "it" (not including people in transition or other cases).
Point is, pronouns are odd in this type of situation.
SuperUnknown231 ยท -12 points ยท Posted at 16:08:01 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Nobody does that. Literally nobody fucking does that.
brujahbattalion ยท 10 points ยท Posted at 16:12:46 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I met a guy in real life who prefers to live as a dog. Not a Furry thing or a fetish type thing but an actual dog 24/7.
ArmanDoesStuff ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 16:36:18 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Pretty chill fucking life, to be fair.
letmehollahollaholla ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 16:16:45 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
whats does that even mean? does he walk on all fours? does he bark?
brujahbattalion ยท 17 points ยท Posted at 16:23:39 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Yes actually. He had on a super fucking high quality dog costume. Not a furry suit or anything I'd ever seen before my best guess would be a custom made latex and realistic fur suit from a special effects artist.
He (It?) was just chilling laying on the couch at a friend's house and the dog's "owner" came over and yelled at him a bit to get off the furniture so he laid down on the floor.
Apparently he hadn't spoken in 6 months and was transitioning into being able to be a dog full time.
TolstoysMyHomeboy ยท 16 points ยท Posted at 16:35:54 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
He needs professional help. And a goddamn job.
crudehumourisdivine ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 16:43:51 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
his job is being another weirdo's dog
Darkcheops ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 17:18:12 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
If I could get paid to lounge around during watching TV all day I'd consider it.
Swie ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 18:27:20 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
don't be silly, we don't waste electricity keeping the TV on for the dog.
pdrocker1 ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 16:24:41 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Does he shit outside?
brujahbattalion ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 16:26:23 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Honestly, I was curious but I didn't have the balls to ask. I asked a mutual friend and he said he didn't know but he was curious too.
Sovereign_Curtis ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 17:17:48 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
God damn, why couldn't I have just lived in Imperial Rome when their weird shit was just blood-sport and orgies and incest?
murphymc ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 17:03:24 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
...and does his "owner" clean up after him like a responsible dog owner?
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 16:49:14 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Here you go: https://www.mentalhealth.gov/talk/friends-family-members/
sqdnleader ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 16:42:55 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Surely he can't be Sirius?
Manlymanbeast ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 16:23:38 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Fucking aye. I'd want to live as a dog to! Get to sleep half of the day! Get people to pick up my poop! And I wouldn't need to worry about how I'm guna get my next meal because it magically shows up in my dish 2 times a day. Sign me up.
htepO ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 16:49:06 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Shame about your nads, though.
OxvFer0cdak ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 16:56:35 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Tell him I hate him. /farnsworth
Le_Faveau ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 22:26:59 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Forget about dragonkin, there are some serious madmen believing themselves to be women and viceversa
[deleted] ยท -2 points ยท Posted at 19:47:13 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
[deleted] ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 08:14:39 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
[removed]
x1expert1x ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:24:44 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
great, so mutilate your body because you like to act girly. fantastic. what has our society grown into? Studies have shown that cultures depreciate and break down when there are rises in LGBTQ and primarily transgender movements. A gender is a gender, it is assigned to you by nature. SEXUALITY on the other hand, you are free to choose. Trying to pretend like you can change your gender is stupid.
DO_THE_HARLEM_SHAKE_ ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 20:44:10 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Special snowflakes wanting attention.
nayamasu ยท -8 points ยท Posted at 15:52:26 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Transgender people will often ask your pronouns as a way to open up the conversation about theirs being something you might not expect.
As a trans woman, who still has beard shadow, it's really hard to be gendered correctly most the time in public. I'll use asking other people's pronouns as a way to offer mine as she/her which they may not have guessed.
This post is basically saying "if your friend is trying to start a conversation about Gender or trans people, run!"
It's transphobic in a subtle way. Which is the worst kind in my opinion.
Instead just offer your pronouns and then ask what theirs are. The three most popular are She/her, they/them, he/him. I try using they/them for anyone I haven't explicitly asked yet. More as a statement on trans visibility more than anything else.
Deanisgawd ยท 73 points ยท Posted at 16:06:59 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
That honestly sounds like an incredibly awkward way to start a conversation. When you meet someone when do you even use a pronoun? Wouldn't you just use their name and they'd use yours? It seems to only pertain if they then go off and refer to you with a third party.
QueefLatinaTheThird ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 17:33:23 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AT08e8qMhfw
nayamasu ยท -2 points ยท Posted at 16:39:00 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
"Hey man how are you doing." "Actually my pronouns are she/her, yours are he/him right? Cool."
Sea-Salt ยท 13 points ยท Posted at 17:37:00 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
And then the other person walks away because they can't be arsed to deal with that passive-aggressive shit from the get-go.
uninterestingkilljoy ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 20:05:34 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
TRIGGERED
Binarytobis ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 17:10:54 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
That sounds a lot more reasonable than "Hey I'm Tim." "Hey. What pronouns do you use?" What you just said wouldn't bother me, really.
nayamasu ยท -6 points ยท Posted at 17:18:49 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I mean it's all about making the conversation better. I used to be really aggressive about this sort of thing but that didn't really get me anywhere.
DrapeRape ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 18:22:19 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
So now you're passive aggressive and just about as off putting. Just introduce with your name for correction and find ways to organically assert you are female. I swear so many people are put off of trans people when meeting them irl because they have zero tact. Its not always obvious, your situation is comparatively very rare and you need to realize that if you want things to go smoother. Starting off with the pronoun thing is super weird and awkward.
JX3 ยท 26 points ยท Posted at 16:23:13 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It'd probably be more straigth forward just to be more frank about it. A lot of people will be very bewildered by a question like that. You are putting people on the spot so any haphazard reactions shouldn't be completely unexpected. It's a little different than your normal smalltalk.
It's not like everyone is going to be okay with it even if you were more transparent, but at least the fallout will be more manageable for all.
In general it's just better to be honest in conversations. You said the reason why you ask is to create an opportunity to talk about yourself. Just talk about yourself if you feel like you need to. It's not a mundane conversation for many to begin with — introducing more complexity just creates more opportunity for misunderstandings and conflict.
nayamasu ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 16:33:07 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Have you ever had to breach the subject of having a different pronoun? Why do you think you know the best way to have this conversation?
oditogre ยท 9 points ยท Posted at 16:47:43 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Yours isn't the best, it's just the one that is easiest for you and most uncomfortable for the other person. It's like the stereotypical 'nice guy' approach to getting a girlfriend; it's an excuse that lets you tell yourself it's all on the other person and definitely not in any way your fault if the convo doesn't go your way.
It's manipulative and underhanded.
What's wrong with being direct and honest about your intent in the conversation, so everybody can be on an even footing?
nayamasu ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 16:50:16 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It manipulative to assert my correct pronouns? And make room for trans identities?
Could you please online your whole point so that I can understand it better? I'd like to continue to talk about this but your point unclear.
oditogre ยท 14 points ยท Posted at 16:55:02 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You're not asserting your correct pronouns. That's the exact point. You're manipulating the other person into asking you about them.
theorganicpotatoes ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 17:03:00 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
She is bringing up something she wishes to talk about at the start of the conversation. That's not manipulative, that's just a normal conversation.
HipHoboHarold ยท 12 points ยท Posted at 17:06:05 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
But that's the other persons point. She's not just bringing it up. She's stearing it into a certain direction. If she wants to talk about it and let them know, she could just do it rather than ask a question that's not normally asked and will make just about anyone feel really awkward really fast.
oditogre ยท 10 points ยท Posted at 17:12:10 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Exactly. It's the difference in saying "I prefer to be called 'Dr. Smith'", versus steering the conversation towards education just so you have an excuse to mention you have a PhD.
If they genuinely want to have a conversation about that stuff, there are way, way less messy, more comfortable for everybody ways to nudge the conversation down that path than directly asking somebody out of the blue what pronouns they prefer. If they don't care and they're just trying to 'assert their correct pronouns', well, just assert them, directly, and let the conversation move along, instead of going down this weird, awkward detour.
theorganicpotatoes ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 17:12:07 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I often start conversations by asking my friends their opinion on something and then stating my own. I guess I just don't really see it as that manipulative.
[deleted] ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 16:41:10 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
[deleted]
nayamasu ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 17:00:47 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Your username suggests a male pronoun. Glad I know it's mech.
[deleted] ยท 79 points ยท Posted at 15:59:10 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
[deleted]
nayamasu ยท -48 points ยท Posted at 16:09:23 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Are you trying to make a point about gender not mattering? That doesn't work in a society that uses gender all the time. Identifying someone as their self prescribed pronouns is what you do all the time. Changing it for a trans person based on how you feel is transphobic.
I'm not bring passive aggressive when doing this in conversation. I'm putting people through a conversation about gender. If they react like you or the person in this post I try to educate the best I can. Isn't that how conversation works?
fitzydog ยท 28 points ยท Posted at 16:41:30 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
accidentally refers to you by a male pronoun while talking to a third person
"Actually, I'd like if you used 'she' please."
"Oh, okay. My bad. So anyways..."
That's how normal people would do it.
nayamasu ยท -5 points ยท Posted at 16:58:38 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Sure but what if you're trans? I don't know what your pronouns are without asking.
fitzydog ยท 16 points ยท Posted at 17:08:38 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Same exact situation. Infer based on what you see, and if you're wrong, neither party should be offended.
The solution to all of this? Don't get so offended. People aren't actively trying to hurt others. We've got bigger shit to deal with in our lives than what every person we encounter wants to be known as.
nayamasu ยท -4 points ยท Posted at 17:10:27 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Said like someone who has never been misgendered.
It's not like I want to disclose to people. Most the time it's a misunderstanding and I have to explain things. Your solution works in a perfect world. Our world is more complicated than that.
fitzydog ยท 11 points ยท Posted at 17:15:47 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I said it like someone who has accidentally misgendered someone.
I quickly apologized, corrected myself and continued on.
Binarytobis ยท 20 points ยท Posted at 17:07:39 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Same thing but in reverse. By turning every conversation into a statement about gender identity and forcing people to participate you drive them away and reinforce the unhealthy stereotype of "transgender people won't shut up about being PC." Gentle corrections will be more effective.
I do appreciate you opening the dialogue here, where it's cogent.
nayamasu ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 17:12:37 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I'm not talking about a lecture here. I'm talking about a 4 second interaction. Everyone assumes there is a lecture after asking about pronouns. I just want to know so that I can call you bro or hon.
Binarytobis ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 17:37:29 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
That's just the point, though. By forcing the conversation in such an awkward, un-prompted way you are creating the atmosphere of "Oh man, I just wanted to drink a beer and unwind and this person is about to start a tirade about pronouns." It isn't transphobia (at least for me), it's lecturephobia, so how you start the conversation matters.
"I prefer they/their." wouldn't phase me at all. "What pronouns do you use?" wouldn't make me walk away, but it would make me on edge and defensive.
I can appreciate where you're coming from though. If I was around more trans people I probably wouldn't find it as weird.
HipHoboHarold ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 17:07:47 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Then when they politely correct you, you politely apologize, and everyone moves on. The person literally just gave you an example of this. He gave you an answer and then you asked the question.
nayamasu ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 17:11:06 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
EXACTLY.
LeagueofEnts ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 17:15:44 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Then use neutral pronouns? Like you just said
nayamasu ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 17:20:09 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Would you want me to refer to you by they/them? Wouldn't you just want a 2 second chance to state your preference?
LeagueofEnts ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 18:47:18 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Not if I don't know you, why would I disclose something so personal. I'm gay and don't immediately tell people I am and don't get up in arms when people assume I'm straight
supahrank ยท 17 points ยท Posted at 16:34:28 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Okay but what if that person doesn't give a shit about gender or being educated? Like what if it's a total nonfactor to them? Don't you think you come off as a little pretentious just assuming that people are going to give a damn?
nayamasu ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 16:41:49 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
So your argument is that people are shitty and I shouldn't help them understand?
supahrank ยท 18 points ยท Posted at 16:50:36 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I don't think it's shitty to not really care about gender. Like I'm happy for you that you're doing you and becoming happier with yourself. Truly, I am. I think it's great that you've got the opportunity and that you're in a good spot to pursue who you really are and make those changes, and I'm glad that it's even an option in our society.
That being said, if you were to start a conversation with "what are your preferred pronouns" or "my preferred pronouns are", chances are good that I'm going to lose interest real quick.
nayamasu ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 17:07:28 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
But why? It's a two sentence interaction.
"Hi I'm Nayamasu, could I ask your pronouns real quick?" "mine are he/him. Yours?" "she/her thanks for asking."
Sorry. three. I'm just not seeing why this is a huge deal. People are talking like I would be giving a lecture. I'm talking about a 4 second interaction.
BaconGobblerT_T ยท 19 points ยท Posted at 17:15:57 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Because it's not something normal people care about. I don't ask women if they prefer to be called Miss or Misses before striking up a conversation with them unless the conversation asked for that context. Similarly, I'm going to assume your gender based on physical appearances. If I'm wrong, you can correct me and the conversation can continue normally just like if I called you Miss when you're married.
supahrank ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 18:15:56 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It just seems unnecessary. Unless I accidentally misgender you, why does your preferred pronouns/gender even matter? All it does is make things awkward for someone like myself who doesn't often talk about personal things with strangers. For example, I'm bisexual but I've told all of like 4 people (in person) because who gives a shit? It's not really relevant until it becomes the topic.
Skutner ยท 16 points ยท Posted at 17:01:07 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
People are not shitty, you are. The fact is not many people care about gender, just like not many people care about Australian football. How many people do you think would be happy to hear a lecture on Australian football every time they talked to someone? It's just not very interesting or important to them. If your whole identity is just your gender then I am sorry, you are not an interesting person.
DarwinsMoth ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 17:12:53 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You don't get it. It's not about you, it's about them and the attention they need. Dick.
nayamasu ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 17:01:58 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You're assuming that I'm giving a lecture. This is about asking someone's pronouns.
[deleted] ยท -3 points ยท Posted at 17:13:29 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Come on dude.
sweetorsarcastic ยท -2 points ยท Posted at 16:50:51 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
Even if they don't know or care at all about gender, they'll probably appreciate the heads up that this is important to the person they're talking to. At least, that's how I feel when someone let's me know how to refer to them. Though it's usually a two sentence conversation and we move on.
"Hi, yeah, I don't know if I've mentioned it before but my pronouns are she/her."
"Oh, thanks, yeah, mine our they/them. Can you believe that ref's call last night?"
"No, because it was RIDICULOUS."
If I'm not sure, I just start using their name a lot.
Edit: I realize though, that you (speaking generally) have to assume the person you're talking to is chill with this, and not going to nope out of the conversation.
supahrank ยท 9 points ยท Posted at 16:54:17 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I get where you're coming from, I just think that sounds hella awkward and forced is all. Like if I'm talking to a group of people and I say 'he' referring to someone in the group, wouldn't it be just as easy to interject with 'she' and let me fix the mistake rather than go through the whole "my pronouns are x/x's/xer, what are yours?" routine?
I do get what you're saying though, and I respect where you're coming from with it.
Thanks for the reply :)
sweetorsarcastic ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 17:21:22 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Thanks! I get that. Honestly, I'm super awkward either way, hah. I like doing the intro because it doesn't put anyone on the spot to stick up for themselves by interrupting the conversation and hoping everyone is not transphobic (given the murder rates of transgender people, that can be a real concern). It can be a gamble with these conversations. By saying my pronouns, it's an easy way to let the person I'm talking with know I'm fine with whatever. (I generally don't find transphobic people having this routine haha!) I think it would be harder (more awkward) for me to interrupt to correct if it was in the middle of a different conversation, though I get what you're saying since it does turn it into it's own little thing. Thanks for the reply. :)
veeeSix ยท 17 points ยท Posted at 16:20:03 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
That sounds like how door-to-door salesmen operate.
nayamasu ยท -7 points ยท Posted at 16:36:34 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Or most white men?
DarwinsMoth ยท 15 points ยท Posted at 17:09:46 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
There it is.
altarofgraceland ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 17:16:51 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
this doesn't even fucking make sense
he said you sound like a door to door salesman selling gender so you say "sounds like a white man", like that's an insult?
Wouldn't that mean you don't like the way you sound? Are you criticizing yourself?
nayamasu ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 17:23:55 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Sorta yeah. It's more about using a form of communication that works. White men aren't some horrid monster. They're a group of people like we all are. They can have ideas that work.
altarofgraceland ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 17:28:27 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
ok, so you're stereotyping to relate
so what's the equivalent for black people or asian people, or maybe women? How should i stereotype or adjust my behavior to relate to them?
nayamasu ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 17:33:02 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I'm not understanding your point. What's wrong with relating to everyone?
altarofgraceland ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 17:39:32 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
why not just answer my question? How should i stereotype the people mentioned above to relate to them?
veeeSix ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:21:48 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Is that a racial sexist remark?
laccro ยท 10 points ยท Posted at 16:50:55 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
So I want you to know that I fully support you being transgender, I think that's great, and I'm glad you have the ability to do with your body whatever you like.
Thing is, gender just isn't something that people think about, and that's not meant to insult anyone. Most people just don't mentally allocate any resources to caring, and it really isn't important to anyone anyways.
I just met someone named Jeff, let's say. I don't care anything about gender, even if its someone who recently became male from female. They're just Jeff to me, and when I talk about them in conversation, I'm going to call Jeff male. I don't want to spend time and energy worrying about it, but someone named Jeff is most likely male and that's what my brain will take and run with.
If Jeff comes up to me and says "Hey, I know we just met, but I actually prefer to be called a female," I would say sure, and make a conscious effort to now call Jeff "Her" in conversation, because now I know to care. I might mistakenly say "him" a few times until I can retrain my brain to be correct, but I'll do my best.
If 99% of people I meet are the gender that I think they are, it isn't worth my brainpower to try to categorize people differently than my assumption unless it's pointed out to me directly.
I don't think you should define yourself by your gender, define yourself by how you act and what you do. I don't care if you identify as a man or a woman or neither, I just care that you're a decent person. Let me get to know you a bit before correcting me, it'll make me more likely to like you based on your personality.
Does that make sense? The brain would be exhausted trying to come up with specific gender categories for everyone in all situations. You're best off saving that talk about the gender that you prefer to be called for when you know someone.
BONGLORD420 ยท 25 points ยท Posted at 16:14:07 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It might matter to you, but it doesn't matter to most.
RyanB_ ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 16:18:11 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Which doesn't mean it's not dickish to ignore what matters to them.
BONGLORD420 ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 18:24:25 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Right, but rolling your eyes at people who obsess over gender pronouns is no worse than rolling your eyes at people who obsess over World of Warcraft or anime or the Red Sox or whatever else people get overly preoccupied with. It's not something people should do with pride, but it's something most people do nonetheless.
Swie ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 19:04:32 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
To be fair, your gender is a much bigger deal than your favourite video game. It literally colors every social interaction you perform and the only reason you don't notice it is because you've never had a problem with it.
It's just like you don't notice that you're breathing until your breathing is abnormal.
People whose gender is not normal are not so much obsessing over it as they are noticing and bothered by a million things we don't notice and don't bother us.
That said I agree that trans people should try to minimize how much everyone else has to deal with their issue, but if they need us to make small changes to avoid them having an uncomfortable life I think that's fair.
nayamasu ยท -5 points ยท Posted at 16:37:36 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
That doesn't make it less real. It's a part of life now. We're not going away.
xJustinian ยท 11 points ยท Posted at 16:48:52 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
People who define themselves by their gender?
nayamasu ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 17:08:45 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Trans people don't really have a choice a lot of the time. Because people misgender us all the time we have to assert ourselves.
There's this belief that trans woman are all angry. I'm just trying to spread awareness.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:13:19 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
nayamasu ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 19:17:22 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I mean. Yeah. I agree.
Wood_Warden ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 16:41:42 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
During my job as a delivery driver going to dozens of super markets, country clubs, bagel shops and other various demographics etc.. gender is not brought up at all in all my exchanges, nor does it influence any thing that is happening. Our society might 'use gender' in applications, forms and other paper work, but beyond the word - it really means nothing besides what you're particular too/influenced by/attracted too/or want to happen to you. It's like picking what sport's team to follow - it's your personal business (most gender related functions occur in the privacy of your home any ways), but I really don't care what gender you're assigning yourself to and it doesn't (at least it shouldn't) effect me in the slightest. If you want to be labeled she/he/whatever, that's fine - just don't get salty at people for having to adjust to your personal world view, which matters naught to them and can even be perceived as a mental sickness by some (other topics like this include; Vaccinations, GMO etc - where in, your belief is enough to be wrongly labeled/judged).
co99950 ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 18:50:21 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Doesn't sound too inclusive to headmates /s.
siegewolf ยท 16 points ยท Posted at 16:20:30 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It unfortunately sounds like they're trying to make rules surrounding the conversation. That's super fine in a formal setting, but it can be very uncomfortable in an informal one.
nayamasu ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 16:35:58 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
That's a perception you can easily change by being aware of the conversation and accepting it. Then it's over and done with. Also, I find that informal settings are often the hardest place to explain your pronouns. One on one is so much more intimate that awkward questions often come up. Not usually prompted by the trans individual.
siegewolf ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 16:41:41 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I'm just more curious as to why the conversation would move that way in the first place. Informal settings can tend to be far more small talk and that's totally not a small talk type of thing.
nayamasu ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 16:57:49 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
When your identity is based on your gender and making sure that you are addressed correctly in all spaces the conversation easily shifts this way.
"can I get you a drink bro?" "sure but my pronouns are she/her"
The reasons I always disclose. 1. It's safer for me- disclosing right away insures that the person buying me a drink knows I'm trans. This gives them a chance to say they're not interested BEFORE they pay for something. How disappointed would you be if you bought a someone a drink and after taking a sip said they were married? Kinda the same line of thinking. Let them know who you are so they can make an informed decision. 2. Bigots.
These are tactics trans people use to stay safe.
nf5 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 17:19:07 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Ive read how, in every thread on this subject, you've butted heads with everyone looking to start fights. Over pronouns for a conversation that never happened.
You're the common denominator! I got something for you that's gender neutral! You're an asshole!
ThePletch ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 17:39:26 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Jesus Christ.
nayamasu ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 17:21:32 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I'm transgender. Of course I talk about pronouns a lot.
[deleted] ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 17:44:32 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
[deleted]
Guffbrain ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 17:53:41 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Ms High and Mighty, you piece of shit!
/s
LeagueofEnts ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 18:18:32 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Bro is neutral don't be so sensitive. Also that scenario has never happened to you
oditogre ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 16:34:49 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
More likely, they didn't know what their 'old friend' was getting at, but they could tell that the conversation suddenly became awkward and subtly manipulative, so they nope!'d out.
Try being direct and honest, instead. I know that might be awkward and uncomfortable for you, but the fact is that in today's society, the awkwardness is going to happen with this conversation, so if you insist that the conversation be had (which is fine!), it's only fair that you own it.
Your approach just offloads the discomfort on the other person, which is crap, and it's no wonder some people would rather just walk away. That doesn't make them transphobic.
general_fei ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 17:10:51 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Have an entire population adjust a ubiquitous form of greeting to accommodate approximately 0.3% of the population? I'm always amused when people are surprised this isn't really catching on.
nayamasu ยท -5 points ยท Posted at 17:17:45 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
But it is catching on. Slowly. We are patient. I believe you'll understand someday.
general_fei ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 19:47:37 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Sure.
Guffbrain ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 17:57:52 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
And what if scientific understanding advances to the point that we understand transgender experiences as a disorder related to development and altered neurochemistry?
What if we develop something that stops people experiencing gender dysphoria?
Can we stop the language policing then?
xnxn_ ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 16:38:16 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Yep. OP had the chance to make this an /r/notinteresting post.
[deleted] ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 16:28:05 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Well that's why it's your opinion. If every joke is about your protected group and is so terrible you might want to avoid them
nayamasu ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 16:31:26 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
My opinion was that subtle atrocities are the worst. You have decided that this means I hate people who don't understand transphobic things. I don't. Transphobia is all around us. I'm trying to point it out a little at a time.
FlirtySanchez ยท 9 points ยท Posted at 17:03:07 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You have decided that someone who doesn't care about gendered pronouns is transphobic. I have a trans friend, I accidentally called her a she. I was then corrected and now call him a he. It was that simple. It didn't need to be a jumping off point to start a conversation.
Some people just don't care enough to worry about it, what with life getting in the way. They don't let your choices change the way they live, they probably have more to worry about than your feelings. We all have little things that bother us in life and it's easy to let that control your day to day conversations. But it doesn't have to. You don't need to force a learning experience on to people, it will happen naturally, they'll learn from their mistake and then move on with the conversation.
You were pretty quick to judge all white men in another post, but I realize that we're the PC bad guys at this point and it's not worth it to go off on you for assuming that we're all the same because it'll just put a damper on my day and I have too much homework to deal with to worry about the fact you think white men are evil because some of us don't care about gendered pronouns when it's only become an issue in, what, the past year or two?
nayamasu ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 17:16:21 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I don't think they're evil. I think they are a community that needs to talk about these things. Ignorance is a word I would use but the connotation of it is too strong.
You're right though I did lose my patience and made a comment about white men. I'll try to be better about losing my temper in the future. Thank you for reminding me that we all make mistakes. I think I'll leave it up so that when others go digging they can see my flaws and understand that I'm human like them.
[deleted] ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 16:41:26 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Except transphobia to you is apparently a joke which wasn't even directly related to trans people. You decided to make it about them
nayamasu ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 16:59:40 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Transphobia is super serious. I don't think it's a joke at all.
DO_THE_HARLEM_SHAKE_ ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:45:37 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I hope you give as much respect to me, I'm actually an Attack Helicopter!
nayamasu ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 22:50:51 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Do have have to say attack helicopter or is there a shorthand?
[deleted] ยท -2 points ยท Posted at 00:55:43 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
DO_THE_HARLEM_SHAKE_ ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 01:05:33 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
http://i.imgur.com/PTlkAwB.png
[deleted] ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 17:12:03 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Yes that completely unrelated thing is serious.
White_Space_Christ ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 18:04:35 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Nothing subtle about it. The gif is openly trans-phobic.
oditogre ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 17:38:38 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I'm sorry you're being downvoted into the negatives, here. While I don't agree with you, this has been a good conversation, and people shouldn't be using the blue arrow as a disagree button. :/
nayamasu ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 18:32:15 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It's whatevs I'm really not the best at this and people who want to be mad will be. I admit that I'm not perfect and there are better ways to have the conversation but I'm just doing what I can to help people understand.
nayamasu ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:47:01 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Ooh! Shiny! Thanks stranger!
LeannaBard ยท -17 points ยท Posted at 15:59:52 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Im glad I saw someone else pointing it that this is actually a pretty shitty post. If someone asks you your preferred pronoun, just tell them and then ask what theirs are.
LuchadorBane ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 16:38:49 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Why though? It's not like youre using pronouns in conversation with someone.
LeannaBard ยท -6 points ยท Posted at 17:01:47 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I get misgendered multiple times every day, so yeah, it definitely comes up. When you meet someone new and talk about them to someone else, you use pronouns a lot. It comes up more than you think it would.
Turtletree ยท -27 points ยท Posted at 16:00:07 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
+1 yeah, I'm really sick of the low-key transphobia on Reddit.
Pootis_Spenser ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:58:12 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
No, nobody talks like that outside of the internet
016Bramble ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:39:36 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Yes, people do talk like that outside of the Internet. The difference is that nobody makes a big deal about it outside of the internet because the transphobic people tend to stay away from places where people talk like that.
abowlofcereal ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 21:01:44 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It's something of a courtesy, so you get a little sense of that person's identity without getting into the minutiae. In most cases people will go with he, she, or they pronouns. That's all you really need to know, unless you're having a deep dive "get to know you" kind of interaction.
Honestly, the people who are so annoyed or outraged by it seem to be the more sensitive. It's a simple question with a fairly simple answer.
AC_Slater25 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:42:10 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
No it's not. Not in real life at least. This kinda shit only exists on reddit and the outrage culture that it perpetuates.
SirDinkus ยท -10 points ยท Posted at 16:12:17 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
According to science, it's not a thing. According to Tumblr, it's the most important thing. Which our society is listening to is a sign of our times.
(And no, you can't find a single peer reviewed study on transgenderism/gender fluidity. You can't even find a study that isn't blatantly biased or extremely poorly executed.)
Edit: Dislike this comment all you like. I'll refute my claim as soon as one of you links a study that gives any sort of concrete evidence transgenderism/gender fluidity is based on science.
nightpanda893 ยท 13 points ยท Posted at 16:45:31 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Well, that's not exactly true. Mainstream medical organizations both recognize the existence of trans people and the efficacy of transitioning. It's just odd that you would ask every person you meet about gender pronouns when trans people make up such a small portion of society.
murphymc ยท -2 points ยท Posted at 17:08:30 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Only insofar that the rate of suicide among post-transition people is slightly lower than that of pre-transition people. The root of the person's problem is rooted much deeper than simply a disassociation with their outward appearance.
nightpanda893 ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 17:12:44 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Do you have a source for this that makes a causal connection and moderates for factors such as more visibility as a trans person in their communities and the judgement and discrimination that comes with it?
murphymc ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 17:26:56 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I don't, and I'm not sure there is one. The subject as a whole needs a whole lot more study.
nightpanda893 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 17:34:41 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
yeah, i agree
SirDinkus ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 17:49:45 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I think mainstream medical organizations recognize the existence of "furries" too, but they aren't giving credence to the notion that people with a fursona where born that way, or that their intense desire to identify with an animal is somehow based on science. That's the difference here. People on Tumblr with worthless degrees are changing the definitions of patently scientific terms, without any actual evidence.
nightpanda893 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 18:02:16 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
No, that's not the difference. I am saying that transitioning is recognized too.
http://www.tgender.net/taw/ama_resolutions.pdf
http://www.apa.org/topics/lgbt/transgender.aspx
beelzeflub ยท -9 points ยท Posted at 17:03:06 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Found the transphobe.
Please educate yourself.
SirDinkus ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 17:53:11 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I'm waiting on you to cough up that proof, buddy. The way these people with worthless degrees have redefined scientific terms (without any true supporting evidence) is wrong. As wrong as putting entries into legitimate biological journals on Unicorns. Until you can prove it exists and isn't a figment of peoples imaginations, it doesn't deserve being treated as fact.
beelzeflub ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 18:07:02 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Scientific American article on the transgender brain: Here
SirDinkus ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 18:15:34 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Did you bother to read that? Please point to anywhere in that article where there's actually a point being made. I believe the best you can do is say that it "suggests a correlation". At best.
crazycatchdude ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 18:45:27 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
[deleted]
QueefLatinaTheThird ยท -5 points ยท Posted at 17:13:40 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KB-SRBuBrOI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AT08e8qMhfw
JoeBagelz ยท 17 points ยท Posted at 16:51:36 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I just know that guy as the incestuous-beastiality-rape fetish guy from that one found footage movie
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:07:58 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
I luff chikkens
Fire_away_Fire_away ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:25:50 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
...link?
Also he was best known for being on The League.
JoeBagelz ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 00:33:18 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
"Creep" on Netflix
Kneel_Legstrong ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 17:31:53 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Creep
brujahbattalion ยท 265 points ยท Posted at 15:36:09 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
The only proper answer to that question is "His Majesty".
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/education/wp/2016/10/07/a-university-told-students-to-select-their-gender-pronouns-one-chose-his-majesty/
[deleted] ยท 76 points ยท Posted at 18:08:39 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
[deleted]
[deleted] ยท 32 points ยท Posted at 19:04:45 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
also, campus petitions in general lol
you're walking around campus on game day, pretty buzzed, and some goober asks you to sign something really quick. might even give you a pen for your troubles. bam, they get a "supporter"
DannyMThompson ยท 20 points ยท Posted at 19:55:46 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Stop signing shit without reading it first.
greenbabyshit ยท 10 points ยท Posted at 21:41:47 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
But i need a pen. I cant spend beer money on pens.
Zargabraath ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 02:55:57 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
actually in common law jurisdictions signing something you didn't read is essentially non binding
Same as signing if you were extremely high or drunk, you essentially lacked capacity to sign.
texaswilliam ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 04:07:15 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Alright, let's go run all those people down and make sure they read it first...
ksaid1 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 07:50:57 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
i've tried to conduct surveys and shit on college campuses and if you can get 3% to respond that's a pretty incredible achievement in my book lol
silentruh ยท -18 points ยท Posted at 18:53:03 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
so...the entirety of the gay population? Yea, why would we listen to them? /s
[deleted] ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 22:09:08 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
[deleted]
silentruh ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 00:32:52 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Not ignoring minority populations is a big part of why we have government in the first place. If we just had direct majority opinion rule, it'd be a nightmare for small groups like lgbt who'd never be able to oppose the much larger straight population who have very little incentive to bother trying to understand or care about their problems.
However, I have to disagree with your opposition of gender-neutral pronouns. They/them is a lot easier to use than most people seem to realize, and we all already use it all the time when speaking about people whose gender we don't know. For instance, if somebody cut you off in traffic, you might say, "Who the hell do they think they are!?" without even thinking about the fact you didn't say he or she, since you didn't know. It really isn't that hard or much of a stretch to use it with non-binary people. I don't consider any pronouns other then she/her, he/him, or they/them to be valid, nor do I believe most trans people would either. Bringing up nonsense like 'other-kin' is a huge straw-man, I've literally never heard it used outside of an excuse to ridicule trans people.
Fozzo ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 19:59:38 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Sweetie, we're a lot more than 3%
silentruh ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 20:42:45 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
Studies vary, but it could be anywhere from 2-7% or so for all lgbt, unless you're just polling San Francisco. Although the most common figures seem to suggest 3-4%.
Fozzo ยท -2 points ยท Posted at 20:44:55 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Just curious, got any global stats? I live over in the UK and I don't know if its just confirmation bias but I think there's a higher % here. Legitimately surprised by that though, thanks for the info :)
silentruh ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 21:06:47 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It's actually really common for people to overestimate the lgbt population for various reasons, usually because of it's current/recent acceptance movement and political spotlight. I recall one of those on-the-street video poll joke teams confronting people about this and getting crazy high figures like 30-50%, for example.
Here is the parent page of the previous US specific page I linked, which includes under the UK heading, this very relevant infographic.
muzakx ยท 38 points ยท Posted at 16:38:59 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Hilarious.
Reminds me of The Satanic Temple's tactics.
wallowls ยท 22 points ยท Posted at 17:03:04 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I think this kid is making an interesting point and applaud him for taking action, but that doesn't change the fact that Tucker Carlson is a fucking tool
mcon96 ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 19:40:15 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I go to u of m and they didn't "tell us to select our gender pronouns." They just made it easier to change the ones that they have on file, 99% of students weren't even affected by it. I don't see why anybody would be against this...
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:13:32 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
the fact that they even care is alarming
silentruh ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 18:55:05 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
My question is, did anybody besides him actually abuse that system, or was he protesting a non-existent problem, like the whole trans bathroom thing?
PM_ME_PETS ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 22:06:33 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
From what I heard around campus (nothing), it was a non-issue. I still agree with his point though, that teachers shouldn't have the possibility of being sanctioned for accidentally using the wrong pronoun.
silentruh ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 00:17:53 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I think most trans people wouldn't overreact to accidental misgendering, but they do need some sort of recourse when intentional misgendering is going on from people in authority over them, which seems to be the idea behind this. I've heard of that happening quite a lot. It's too easy for people who disagree with the trans lifestyle to pretend like they didn't know or that they 'have to' use the wrong pronouns for various invented reasons.
DaGooglist ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 23:15:21 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
He was definitely protesting a nonexistent problem. All the university did was allow trans-students (or anyone else for that matter) to select their preferred pronouns. Most people haven't selected theirs and won't because they don't feel the need to. It hasn't even taken effect yet (there are few more weeks before the roster is updated I think) so there wasn't a "problem" to even protest yet.
Honestly, it's a very small thing to do for a small subsection of the student body and it hurts no one. The "punishments" are for professors who intentionally refer to someone by the wrong pronoun (imagine if you had a professor who intentionally referred to you by the wrong name, it's the same thing). Protesting it makes you a dick.
FieryCharizard7 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:43:47 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I mean, everyone is in their own stall anyways. If the guys bathroom is full of guys hogging the stalls on Reddit, you know I'm going to have to pee somewhere.
bluemagikk ยท -2 points ยท Posted at 19:20:26 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
A lot of people changed their pronoun to ridiculous things. I almost changed mine to Attack Helicopter.
[deleted] ยท 12 points ยท Posted at 19:31:54 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
"When someone is referred to with the wrong pronoun, it can make them feel disrespected, invalidated, dismissed, alienated, or dysphoric (or, often, all of the above.)"
No, that means you're a weak frail pussy who can't handle life.
Whatsit-Tooya ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 20:29:15 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I know right, jesus. People are weak.
I seriously do not know how they make it through each day.
Zargabraath ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 02:56:25 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
stop invalidating me I can't even
ksaid1 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 07:52:05 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I dunno, I'm a dude and if people constantly referred to me as a woman it wouldn't make feel respected and validated.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:19:00 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I still don't think that's a reason to feel those things, also, you were most likely born a guy, I'm guessing, so humans are naturally gonna assume guy.
[deleted] ยท 19 points ยท Posted at 16:38:55 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
[deleted]
Midnightfish ยท 157 points ยท Posted at 16:40:29 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Neither is xor
leonidasmark ยท 91 points ยท Posted at 16:59:33 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
xor is a logic gate
Doomdoomkittydoom ยท 10 points ยท Posted at 17:49:08 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Either, or, but not both. Fantastic option for all this pronoun silliness.
SiNiquity ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 17:19:22 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
What else would it be?
Edit: Seriously downvoters I'm at a loss here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XOR_(disambiguation)
XOR may mean:
DeathMetalDeath ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 18:25:43 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
a made up title to get people to ask what it is and then you can explain it to them at length.
[deleted] ยท -18 points ยท Posted at 16:57:35 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
[deleted]
Midnightfish ยท 23 points ยท Posted at 16:59:30 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
What is wrong with they/them?
[deleted] ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 17:06:49 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
[deleted]
PatrickBaitman ยท 10 points ยท Posted at 17:21:24 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Shakespeare used the singular 'they'.
[deleted] ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 18:47:52 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
[deleted]
Ta2punk ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 17:08:50 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
When you thought it couldn't get any worse and then read some shit like this. WTF is wrong with people these days.
[deleted] ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 17:12:57 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
[deleted]
Ta2punk ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 21:12:41 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
That was not directed at you in any way, sorry if it seemed so.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 04:20:01 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Why on earth is this a problem with you?
Ta2punk ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 10:06:27 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It's just really fucking stupid. Everyone has to have their own personalized label and be a special snowflake. There's nothing you could say that would make this bullshit rational or needed in my opinion.
mattcrick ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 20:49:08 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
No one here said it was you dipshit
thedragonsword ยท 24 points ยท Posted at 16:41:48 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
What if they are a Royalkin?
[deleted] ยท -2 points ยท Posted at 16:58:12 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
[deleted]
thedragonsword ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 17:13:42 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Of course, but I don't think it is a stretch to say that the people who are stickers for asking about non-apparent pronouns are not to far of from Kinfolk.
[deleted] ยท -3 points ยท Posted at 17:46:47 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
[deleted]
RockDaHouse690 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 19:05:19 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
There is probably an equal amount of inprovable evidence that people legitimately use for both sides. There is more than none for transgenderism, but not tons more than there isnt for kinfolk.
[deleted] ยท -2 points ยท Posted at 19:14:11 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
[deleted]
RockDaHouse690 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 19:20:50 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Yeah, im not saying there isnt any, or even isnt a lot of evidence. But id say a lot of people put stock in the emotional aspect before the evidence for either.
Cheveyo ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 23:51:24 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You mean those sexist studies that don't understand that gender is a social construct?
SecureThoughObscure ยท -8 points ยท Posted at 17:15:44 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I'm with you on this one. One is a made up gender, the other one made up a way to use an existing gender. Not sure whichever I believe is strangest though, the one who believe they are a dragon or the one who want to cut off their penis.
[deleted] ยท 22 points ยท Posted at 16:51:37 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
[deleted]
Snoopy_Hates_Germans ยท -10 points ยท Posted at 17:50:18 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Because only an insufferable twat would try to make the logical conclusion that a royal title is equivalent to someone's gender expression. It's intentionally insulting and demeaning.
[deleted] ยท 13 points ยท Posted at 17:59:25 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
[deleted]
Snoopy_Hates_Germans ยท -10 points ยท Posted at 18:21:34 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Again, those two things are not equivalent.
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 18:30:04 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
[deleted]
Snoopy_Hates_Germans ยท -4 points ยท Posted at 18:32:54 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You do understand how a pronoun is different than a regular noun, right?
[deleted] ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 19:00:27 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Do you?
[deleted] ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 19:04:38 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
[deleted]
Snoopy_Hates_Germans ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 19:13:10 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You don't need to replace "you," fuckhead.
dirtsunshine ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:29:59 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Oh but Fuckhead prefers it that way, and if you wish to not be disrespectful to fuckhead, refer to fuckhead accordingly.
Snoopy_Hates_Germans ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 19:38:17 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You're having a laugh, but making fun of people who have annoying or idiosyncratic ways of referring to themselves has a legitimate and demonstrably negative effect on people who genuinely do wish to be referred by different gender pronouns.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 21:39:08 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Prove it.
Snoopy_Hates_Germans ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 22:23:02 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Look up the negative mental health impacts of gender dysphoria. Look up "the harms of misgendering" on Google. Look up the suicide, murder and homelessness rates of transgender individuals.
When you make fun of someone requesting certain pronouns, you delegitimise and dehumanise them. Your action says "I care less about you as a person than I do about making a joke for the sake of the status quo." Our nation and society has a terrible track record for listening to marginalised and oppressed peoples and seeking to understand their struggles, and those peoples have, on the whole, a lower societal value as a result. And that's fucked up.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:19:58 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Still waiting for you to prove the connection. A simple suicide rate does not equate to misgendering being the cause of said suicide rate.
Snoopy_Hates_Germans ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:28:44 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
These things are all interconnected. It's not my responsibility to do your research for you.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:37:29 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
So you don't have any proof. That's fine. You should just admit that instead of being condescending.
Snoopy_Hates_Germans ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:45:09 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
lol, as if someone like you would even accept proof given to them
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:53:59 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It's not like you're presenting any for me to accept anyway. You're just assuming what my reaction would be to evidence you haven't even presented.
All while being incredibly condescending.
Snoopy_Hates_Germans ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 00:04:58 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
A quick glance through the first page of your comment history is all the "proof" I need to end this exchange here.
Also, you've called people "condescending" three times in the last hour alone, and your own comments reveal an incredibly snide attitude coming from your side almost without fail. I don't know if you're having a tough day today in particular, or if you're just always like this, but from a self-professed "Bernie supporter," they don't paint you in a very good light. I hope you're able to spend some time really reflecting on what sort of ideals and attitudes he stands for.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 00:17:24 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
So you went through my recent comment section so you could be even more rude and condescending. Wow. Congratulations.
Still waiting for that proof.
Keep attempting to insult me if you want. It won't make your original statement true. Which was the entire point of this conversation.
I find it interesting that you don't have the time to actually present your proof BUT you definitely have time to look through my personal comment history for reasons and ways to insult me. Incredibly poor use of your time considering.
I'm not having a bad day, and my support for Sanders has nothing to do with your apparent inability to present such proof. Your attempt to sway this conversation to make it personal is very sad and makes it plainly obvious that you have absolutely no proof to show.
Oh well.
Talonflame ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 00:40:09 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
u/Snoopy_Hates_Germans is being a total dick but you don't win by fighting condescension with condescension my man. Do you actually care about transsexual issues, or did you just want to argue with someone my man?
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 01:22:27 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I wanted what I asked for. Nothing more. Nothing less.
[deleted] ยท -16 points ยท Posted at 16:53:58 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
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[deleted] ยท 17 points ยท Posted at 17:17:23 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
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D4nnyp3ligr0 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 17:41:43 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
As far as I could tell from the article (and feel free to correct me) no one was being forced to do anything. The university asked people for their preferred pronouns for its own database. Kind of lame I guess, but not the sort of thing I would expect to see making headlines around the world.
[deleted] ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 17:22:35 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
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[deleted] ยท 10 points ยท Posted at 17:45:57 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
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[deleted] ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 17:52:18 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
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[deleted] ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 18:05:16 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
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[deleted] ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 18:09:20 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
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dirtsunshine ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 18:34:55 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It's just pretty annoying. For example, I may identify as a female unicorn-kin, and though outwardly I may look CIS male, expect those around me to use a special pronoun set.
I'd much rather we eliminate all gender-basis from all pronouns and just settle on one nonspecific set of pronouns. Or, maybe people just be happy with those we have in language today, and not be bothered by it.
RockDaHouse690 ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 19:18:36 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Id rather a lot of things be different, but until then, ignoring or otherwise purposefully misgendering people after theyve stated otherwise is just generally a douchey thing to do. If people want to ignore these things, they have every right to, if they want to call people by there biological sex even if they are told otherwise that they identify as something else they shouldnt be crucified, but they have to accept that by doing that you are making someones life worse. There is no way around it. It would be like if you walked up to someone who has dwarfism and referred to them as a midget, and they kindly responded, "I prefer the term little person", and you said, "okay midget." You'd be a cunt. Same way with trans people, its literally three word changes that would make someones day and help them feel validated as a human being. If you choose to willfully disregard it, youre a cunt.
TLDR: Everyone has the right to be a cunt, but nobody likes cunts.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 18:42:26 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
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healcannon ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:35:08 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
No wonder this world is going to shit. Wasting government money on gender identity disorders to ultimately decide to promote surgeries that increase suicide rates. So we support and nurture these people and pressure them into something that makes it worse.
In the meanwhile everyone around them starts to suffer from these insane topics affecting and ruining our schools such as this pronoun discussion.
47oar6Vy ยท -8 points ยท Posted at 17:43:28 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Because identifying with a gender other than your biological sex is a mental disorder and we should be treating it rather than encouraging delusions?
[deleted] ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 17:49:57 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
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47oar6Vy ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 18:53:23 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
And in 30 years we'll be looking back on this insanity the same way we look back on lobotomizing and institutionalizing women for being unhappy in their marriages.
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 18:59:40 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
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47oar6Vy ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 19:24:55 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I don't think you understand what an opinion is.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:31:33 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
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47oar6Vy ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:37:09 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
There are literally no facts on this subject other than biological ones.
Other than that you have surveys and stats that show transgender people are more likely to commit suicide post reassignment surgery than before.
[deleted] ยท 46 points ยท Posted at 16:41:53 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
As a royalty kin, this really TRIGGERS me.
ElagabalusRex ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 19:50:36 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
We're not dealing with the smartest edgelord here.
ginja_ninja ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 23:06:17 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
YOU WILL LEARN THE PARTICULARS OF THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE AND SHOW HIS MAJESTY THE RESPECT HIS MAJESTY DESERVES.
SeudonymousKhan ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 22:45:24 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
That's her majesty you cis shitlord!
brujahbattalion ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 22:50:33 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Cis? Lord?! How dare you assume my gender! I am a nonhexidecimal gendertranslucent Empress, you bigot!
Dios5 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:52:38 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Rarely have i seen such a puncheable face.
Emhyr_var_Emreis ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 21:17:21 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Well mine is His Imperial Majesty then.
Earl_Harbinger ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:57:57 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Also acceptable: "Master"
iamprasad88 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 04:04:02 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Hugh Mungus
DarwinsMoth ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 17:04:46 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Some starving child in a war torn country just watched that video and vowed to destroy America. I support their decision.
[deleted] ยท -6 points ยท Posted at 16:50:22 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
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The_BenL ยท 29 points ยท Posted at 16:56:50 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Like has his shit together? Yeah, me too
royalstaircase ยท -6 points ยท Posted at 17:32:40 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
He looks and dresses like Eric Trump's tumor would.
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 18:27:04 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
A fucking white male!
startingover_90 ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 18:17:04 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Damn, how has the washington post become such tabloid cancer?
Beastabuelos ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 17:04:46 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I would've said god
royalstaircase ยท -2 points ยท Posted at 17:31:58 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
Honestly I'd probably totally call him "his majesty" if I knew him because I'll never get another opportunity to call someone that. That and i'm sure it'd really get on his nerves after a while. He'd eventually start telling me to call him "he" instead and then he'd finally understand why the professor asked him for his preferred pronoun in the first place.
Tsu_Dho_Namh ยท 110 points ยท Posted at 16:12:37 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
One of my girlfriend's roommates uses they/them and it's so hard to catch myself every time I try referring to them.
They're a short, big titted, long haired, make-up wearing, female born individual who doesn't try to be a man but doesn't like being called a woman either.
royalstaircase ยท 76 points ยท Posted at 17:34:31 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Most people who go by nonbinary pronouns are used to people messing it up, and understand when you slip up as long as you are still making an effort to remember.
eviscerate-me ยท 12 points ยท Posted at 02:05:57 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
What a breath of fresh air in a thread full of "lol sjw"
Geralt-of_Rivia ยท -10 points ยท Posted at 21:06:10 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You sound like one of those "people".
royalstaircase ยท 11 points ยท Posted at 21:08:05 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I personally don't have much interest in gender politics or linguistics, I just have friends who are more comfortable being referred to with pronouns that don't match their biological sex. And they've told me what I wrote in the post above.
Geralt-of_Rivia ยท -16 points ยท Posted at 21:09:22 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I think it's nice that you're friends with the mentally ill. They need friends too.
royalstaircase ยท 12 points ยท Posted at 21:12:25 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
They are fabulous friends and are all as healthy as can be. Maybe someday you'll meet them and love them as much as I do.
Geralt-of_Rivia ยท -13 points ยท Posted at 21:15:01 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I sure hope not. I'm not a fan of crazy people.
royalstaircase ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 21:17:28 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
They are no crazier than you, my friend.
Geralt-of_Rivia ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 21:20:31 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I thought you said they were sane?
Don't worry, I know your friends are reading this/will read this.
Masterminds_girl ยท 107 points ยท Posted at 17:28:50 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Thank you for being willing to at least try. My son is FtM Trans, and though he has short-cropped hair and an androgynous face, has a very shapely feminine body. As soon as he let us know what he wanted, we in the family made a concerted effort to refer to him by his preferred pronouns. It's a big challenge for people who have known the person their whole lives, much less don't have as intimate of a relationship with them.
A request/tip, if I may (I know you said you catch yourself, but I wanted to throw this in as well): If they correct your accidental misgendering, try not to get frustrated or act offended. Just accept it and move on. It helps them feel you are really trying to get it right and respect their identity, even though you may not do it perfectly every time.
Trigger_Me_Harder ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 22:42:04 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
People in here are freaking out over a basic question. They actively want to be outraged and offended.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPDpcYEdiOg
ShiroNoOokami ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 07:29:11 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Lol, that video was fantastic!
RealizedEquity ยท -80 points ยท Posted at 17:45:35 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
If your child grew up with a level of confusion forcing her to believe part of her core genetics were flawed, you failed as a parent. Call a spade a spade.
Doomsayer189 ยท 33 points ยท Posted at 18:10:10 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
...or they're trans, why would you assume you know more than their parent?
RealizedEquity ยท -36 points ยท Posted at 18:22:29 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Maybe I'm old fashioned.
Deckurr ยท 17 points ยท Posted at 18:38:49 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
rippel_effect ยท 17 points ยท Posted at 19:00:44 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I think you meant to say that you're a dick...
RealizedEquity ยท -18 points ยท Posted at 20:02:01 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Are we not allowed to have an opinion on what is good parenting? It was harsh I agree.
Anecdotal evidence incoming: Most LGBT people I know have weird fucking family dynamics.
tebasj ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 22:34:35 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
because people with views like yours parent them leading to conflict over their identity. if their parents were open and willing to accept their identities, the family dynamic wouldn't be weird
rippel_effect ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 23:05:33 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It's one thing to call them and their dynamics different, that very well may be true. That said, it's also ok to disagree.
It's a whole other thing to not be accepting because their dynamics are different. Remember, different is not inherently bad.
RealizedEquity ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 23:07:03 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I did not mean weird in a good way. I respect different and have witnessed all sorts of different.
rippel_effect ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 23:26:33 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I know you didn't mean weird in a good way. That's why I'm trying to tell you that you AREN'T respecting differences, not in the slightest. You may have called yourself "old fashioned" but in every comment here you've proved you really meant that you're not accepting. Grow up, please, the world is a big place.
DeadlyPear ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 23:27:39 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
k dude
RealizedEquity ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 00:21:57 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You entirely missed my point.
icryintheshower ยท 24 points ยท Posted at 18:05:54 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Wow u must be a lvl 73 parent
beelzeflub ยท 11 points ยท Posted at 17:09:20 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Thank you for being respectful of their identity. People don't seem to understand that gender roles and concepts of what it means to be a certain gender are evolving, as they have since the dawn of civilization. And some cultures have more than one identified/classified gender.
Gender is an identity of oneself and how one chooses to relate to themselves and the culture around them. It's not black and white.
[deleted] ยท 46 points ยท Posted at 18:02:46 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
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hotbuttredbizkits ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 19:53:16 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
There are definitely cultural aspects of gender but there is scientific support for gender having a biological basis: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-there-something-unique-about-the-transgender-brain/
beelzeflub ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 18:04:01 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Personality and gender are not the same thing. Ones personality does not cause them to be transgender. It's the other way around, if at all.
Boxing up genders may be a silly thing, but at our current advancements in our culture and society, pronouns and gender labels are beneficial for ease of use. Saying "they" won't kill you.
[deleted] ยท 10 points ยท Posted at 18:14:06 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
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TheNerdyOne_ ยท -3 points ยท Posted at 18:33:49 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
They really aren't. You're trapped in a closed mind that won't let you consider new ideas.
How dare they! Wanting to be afforded basic respect and all that.
DionyKH ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 18:55:04 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You and everyone who shares this mode of thought are thoroughly insane. You will never be mainstream, you will always be fucking weirdos in the corner. It's cute that you think otherwise, though.
TheNerdyOne_ ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:00:33 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
Thanks for your input, I'll be sure to take it into account and go on living my life as a fucking weirdo in the corner, because apparently offering other people basic respect isn't normal. :)
DionyKH ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 19:12:35 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It's not basic respect. You thinking that is part of what makes you crazy. It's jumping through hoops for people who are making up bullshit to make themselves seem more interesting. Get a hobby, ffs
TheNerdyOne_ ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 19:17:00 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
TIL using "they" is jumping through hoops. Get a life and stop being so offended all the time.
DionyKH ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:27:50 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Nobody is offended. I'm not bothered by you at all. I know that's what you want, to be edgy and make people uncomfortable, but that's not what you get. You just get weird looks and pity. Not as much pity as your parents probably get, but they won't be ridiculed behind their back and excluded from group gatherings, so there's that.
TheNerdyOne_ ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 19:37:23 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I don't want to make anyone uncomfortable, that's what you want to do. Literally this entire conversation is you calling me crazy and getting outraged over me not wanting to make people uncomfortable.
I don't know what kind of horrible people you hang out with, but where I live people are actually decent human beings, and using "they" is actually pretty normal. Trust me, nobody pities anyone over here, because we're not horrible people.
[deleted] ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 18:55:45 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
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beelzeflub ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 19:14:38 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
One that pops to mind in particular are the Hijra of India; they are typicall MtF transwomen, though IIRC different gender expectations exist for FtM trans men as well. Native American, Hawaiian, and Andean cultures also recognize(d) more than two genders.
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 20:17:18 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
So, hopefully it's not intolerant to ask but what is the inner feeling of not being your birth gender?
I'm a non-trans male, but I really only make that classification based on my anatomy. I like feminine-perceived drinks and listen to girl bands and cry during movies. I have lots of behaviors that wouldn't be considered masculine, but I've never felt like I'm really a female inside.
I know it goes beyond those superficial things for actual trans people, and I'm not trying to trivialize it. I just don't really feel like any gender. I am what I am. I never feel the need to affirm that I'm a man through behavior or clothes or anything. So what is the mental process of a trans person realizing they're not the gender they were born with?
HairyNutsack69 ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 19:23:57 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
mental illness.
beelzeflub ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 21:34:21 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Transgender is not a mental illness.
HairyNutsack69 ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 22:20:17 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Yes it is, except in Denmark.
beelzeflub ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 23:17:21 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Being transgender itself is not classified as a mental illness by the Diagnostic Statistical Manual, 5th Edition. Gender dysphoria is, but it is rather a set of symptoms/psychological phenomena occurring in an individual whose physiology does not align with their personal gender identity.
Read more at the American Psychological Association page here: http://www.apa.org/topics/lgbt/transgender.aspx
HairyNutsack69 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 09:19:55 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
The WHO still classifies it as a mental disorder though.
beelzeflub ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 13:16:39 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
This debate is growing stale. I will clearly not sway you. I can only beg you to express respect and empathy to transgender folks for what they are going through, just trying to be the people they feel they need to be.
Adios.
[deleted] ยท -13 points ยท Posted at 17:18:43 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
beelzeflub ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 17:39:58 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
Biological sex and gender are not the same thing.
From Wikipedia:
Gender constructs may have reference to biological sex, but it is much more inclusive of other factors than that. Why not open your mind to a larger worldview?
One theory is this concept of "brain mapping." Not a literal layout, mind you, but hear me out: before a person is born, their brain is "mapped" to recognize different parts of their body, like arms, legs, etc. This may also include genitals and other sex characteristics. So, a person whose chromosomes are male may have a brain mapped to look for female characteristics; when those characteristics cannot be found, a discrepancy forms which can be crippling and devastating psychologically. Their body literally doesn't "match up" with what their brain is trying to find.
This may be why people who are born without, say, an arm can still feel phantom pain "in" that arm even though it was never there to begin with.
A trans person who never had contact with an established social group would still need to transition for this reason.
shiddabrik ยท -2 points ยท Posted at 17:59:01 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Biologists would laugh in your face right about now.
beelzeflub ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 18:07:55 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Enlighten me, without using emotionally-charged language. Just the facts, please.
shiddabrik ยท -2 points ยท Posted at 18:24:15 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
I'm not arguing with someone who I'm assuming is a fully grown adult about genders, because I shouldn't fucking have to, and the sad part is that some people have to enlighten ADULTS on how genders work. You should have learned about it in school like everyone else did. If you didn't understand it from the get go or just naively adopted what batshit crazy people on social media websites claim as fact about something as basic as differentiating man from woman, then you truly have no hope for the future. It's almost 2017 for fucks sake. We could be accomplishing so much more that is worthwhile, and here you are with all the other screaming social justice harlots defending someone's made up gender on the internet.
You people are very sad.
beelzeflub ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 18:32:21 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Why don't you just take the time to look into and consider that it might not hurt you to try? Why does it bother you? Does it make you uncomfortable? What are you afraid of? What's wrong?
shiddabrik ยท -2 points ยท Posted at 18:37:56 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Because I have a functioning brain.
beelzeflub ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 18:46:08 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
One of the tenants of science is to always be skeptical, to keep your mind open to the idea that maybe, just maybe, you're not always right, even if something makes the most sense to you. Who knows, in the years to come, I'm sure there will be many evolving studies and arguments regarding the concept of gender. The overlap of biology and social science is still a debated issue, but it doesn't mean it's invalid. Part of "having a brain" is to be open to having your beliefs challenged by existing study.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:50:41 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
shiddabrik ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 21:12:00 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Not really, I just stopped giving a fuck because there's no point in arguing with those freaks.
tennorabbit ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 17:54:42 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Protip, yes they are.
Anything stating otherwise is just some tumblr pandering, otherkin, mentally deficient nonsense.
beelzeflub ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 18:01:52 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Scientific American article
[deleted] ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 18:09:31 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
[removed]
beelzeflub ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 18:21:53 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Being transgender itself is not a mental illness according to the DSM 5.
Gender dysphoria, which is a combination of symptoms of anxiety, depression and other emotional disturbances as a result of the internal mismatch, is a mental illness, but being transgender is not.
TheNerdyOne_ ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 17:58:18 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You misspelled "science."
beelzeflub ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 18:03:04 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
People just don't want to let go of what they're familiar with. It makes the uncomfortable to admit, maybe changing ideas about gender aren't such a bad thing. It's sad, really, that people want to reject social science as if it's "not real science."
tennorabbit ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 18:02:36 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You misspelled hokum.
WinchestersFTW ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 18:42:26 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
In that case I believe Hogbeast is the correct word.
oldgood_isaac ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 18:39:25 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
ESL learner here. I have a legitimate question: in this particular context, should I still be saying "they are", or "they is" (kind of a singular they)?
Edit: thanks to all for the clarifications
Pichuscrat ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 19:54:36 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You would say "they are", the plural form, even though you are referring to one person.
Tsu_Dho_Namh ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:02:16 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You'd say "they are", even though it would be he is or she is if they used the he/she pronouns.
Don't know why it flips. English is silly
[deleted] ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 19:03:58 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Why are pronouns important in the first place?
How about being say queer and picking whichever pronoun that corresponds to how you look?
That way, people who it may be relevant to - family, friends, colleagues know you don't identify as either male or female without having to remember an awkward pronoun.
And people who you don't closely interact with - well your gender isn't really relevant to them. Anyone who gets close enough, then they'd know about it.
Like, we understand that someone can be called he or she and identify as queer.
[deleted] ยท -13 points ยท Posted at 16:54:49 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
beelzeflub ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 17:07:10 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
They're a person. Let them have human pronouns. Don't be a fuckwad.
Gender is not black and white nor is it binary. It's a concept that varies from culture to culture. For example, the Hijra in India (typically MtF trans folks) are a third gender, and have certain roles in society that they are expected to fulfill, just like male and female cisgender people have different roles from one another.
From Wikipedia:
laccro ยท 54 points ยท Posted at 16:37:52 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
How is ze doing? Turn in zes paper
I can't even say that without saying the following word in a French accent
jbakers ยท 36 points ยท Posted at 17:12:34 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
"German"
Throwaway09234820394 ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 18:20:58 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
"Der, die das."
โช Dieso, deshalb, darum. โช
Vitztlampaehecatl ยท 10 points ยท Posted at 21:31:39 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Fire ze missiles!
leva549 ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 22:38:50 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
But I am le tired.
Icepick823 ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 23:14:22 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Fine, take a nap. Then fire ze missiles!
pyfgcrl2 ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 22:09:46 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It's funny to me because 'ze' means 'she' in Dutch.
bob1689321 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 22:22:30 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Isn't "they" a gender neutral pronoun?
ElagabalusRex ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 19:52:01 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
The possessive in that case is almost always "zir", which feels natural once you get in the habit.
deputyshitbat ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 17:33:31 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
how are zoo doing today, Laccro?
TheCrazedMadman ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 15:56:35 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
What is the gif from?
Trankman ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 17:34:55 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
The last 2 seasons of The League were bad. Like end it on a high note, they go from being dicks to each other to just being horrible people in a too over the top way.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 08:11:01 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Been a while since I finished but I thought they tried to be too much like Always Sunny at the end. First two/three seasons were amazing comedy though.
brazilliandanny ยท -6 points ยท Posted at 15:59:00 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
A show called
happinesstogetherness, it's not badEdit: apparently I have no idea what this is from
IntoTheMystic1 ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 16:07:12 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Are you sure you have the title correct? The only thing that comes up is Cyanide and happiness.
[deleted] ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 16:24:25 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
[deleted]
IntoTheMystic1 ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 16:28:52 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
So that IS Tom Lennon then
frermanisawesome ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 16:49:03 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
What show is this from?
PRIDE_FC ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 17:20:51 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
The League - S01E05
iGotDatDainbramage ยท 32 points ยท Posted at 15:51:36 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
This thread will be locked within a few hours
[deleted] ยท -9 points ยท Posted at 16:11:48 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Nah this is reddit. Hating "sjws" is totally fine.
DargonFier ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 17:13:58 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
When someone throws shit, they should fully expect to have shit thrown back at them.
1Down ยท 10 points ยท Posted at 17:20:05 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Transgender people receive a lot more shit than they throw.
FappinBob ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 18:01:01 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I'd help if they didn't attempt to force the 99.6% of the population to engage in their snowflake syndrome....male or female, him/her that's IT
1Down ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 18:15:15 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Well I don't intend to throw non-binary people under the bus but most trans people do only use male/female him/her style pronouns.
FappinBob ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 20:05:36 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
But the point is sex and gender ARE binary, even hermaphrodites have one set of fully functioning reproductive organs and people with other intersex conditions are also either male or female. People can identify however they please, male, female or attack choppers, but no one should be forced or expected to indulge or participate in that identity.
1Down ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 20:15:14 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
The international medical community disagrees with you.
FappinBob ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 20:39:35 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
About what exactly? That there are only two sexes?
1Down ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 20:45:46 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I was reading that as saying that transgender people aren't a real thing that should be recognized. If you're speaking specifically about non-binary identities and not trying to dismiss transgender people in general then I don't know what the medical community's stance on non-binary is.
[deleted] ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 22:46:46 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
So the entire population has indulged in calling a man Snoop Dogg but if an average person asked to be referred to with they/them pronouns instead of male or female then they are the ones being out of line? That's asking too much? We've got Beyonce, Jay Z, Dr Dre, P!nk...that's all totally fine and reasonable? But if someone doesn't fit into the abstract idea of what a man or a women should be they don't deserve your respect? You couldn't ever possibly be bothered to refer to them as anything other than him or her?
You, my friend, are a piece of garbage. And I hope you look forward to being one of the bigots your grandchildren and great grandchildren learn about in their history class. Because if you really can't comprehend that that is where your point of view will end up, you're not only a piece of garbage, but also an ignorant and delusional one.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 07:42:29 on October 11, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
[removed]
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 07:50:23 on October 11, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You seem to be really worked up by something that will literally never affect you.
Do you question your own gender identity? It must be tough dealing with that internalized hatred. Hopefully one day you learn to accept yourself as you are. :D You'll be happier then.
StevenBurnham ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 07:52:28 on October 11, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Oh no... you're right. I was actually an attack helicopter all along...
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 07:55:25 on October 11, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
oh man, that is the most original thing I have ever heard.
You are so edgy. So brave! Telling strangers on the internet to kill themselves because you're obsessed over what's in their pants.
StevenBurnham ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 08:27:05 on October 11, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I mean you got triggered enough to call someone ignorant garbage because they didn't buy into your special snowflake shit but ยฏ\(ใ)/ยฏ
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 09:10:52 on October 11, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I tell it like it is. Close minded bigots like yourself are garbage. Especially when you're so complacent in your ignorance.
StevenBurnham ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 09:53:27 on October 11, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
> YOU'RE ON THE WRONG SIDE OF HISTORY BUCKAROO BECAUSE MY VIEW WILL REMAIN UNCHALLENGED FOR ALL OF HUMAN HISTORY!!!1
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 10:08:14 on October 11, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You must be so terribly insecure to go out of your way in an attempt to make other people feel bad. Run to r/the_donald and brag about how you triggered some rando on the internet.
Good luck finding some confidence in a more healthy way. This trans guy believes in you :D
FappinBob ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:18:43 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Having a name (bizarre or not) is one thing, expecting others to indulge you in your special snowflake version of reality is another...and im quite sure that historians will look at folk such as yourself and the other tumblr cultists with great distain and embarrassment.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 00:05:05 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Keep telling yourself that. Racists, sexists, and homophobes thought the same thing.
FappinBob ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 00:08:25 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
LoL you said the same thing to me! Well its clear where you got your brain worms from...
philip1201 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 18:39:51 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Unfortunately a lot of shit is thrown by their so-called allies, and they all get thrown together on the 'SJW' heap.
beelzeflub ยท -5 points ยท Posted at 18:25:34 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
God, I hope so. People are dicks. :/
BKTHROW2 ยท -4 points ยท Posted at 19:24:37 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Lol it's fun you can already predict the people who post to the_donald tumblrinaction and other reactionary safe spaces :)
[deleted] ยท 31 points ยท Posted at 20:56:17 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I get that this is a controversial topic. But we just had LGTBQ training at work and one person let the rest of the staff know that they're actually in the beginning stages of transitioning from male to female and would like to be called her/she by other staff.
For years we've been treating this person as a dude because nobody ever asked them what they wanted. And the fact that we had training and opened the doors to those questions and discussions made them comfortable enough to say 'hey guys, I'm actually a woman'.
I know people think it's all SJW-y and kind of dumb. But, legit, I think it really helped in our work place situation.
Snailic ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 22:43:05 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
No, they think that the people trying to create "gender pronouns" is dumb.
All that coworker had to do from the beginning is to just mention or correct someone that they preferred to be called she/her. But delving into this realm of xe/ze/zir/xir/etc.. whatever that nonsense is, is completely dumb.
[deleted] ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 02:02:14 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I think that telling your co-workers you're transsexual - particularly while still presenting physically as a member of one gender because you haven't had surgery yet - is a difficult task. We're a more progressive place for trans people than 10 or 50 years ago but there's still a lot of anxiety with 'coming out'. It would have been hard for them to just mention it casually.
hailunix ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 22:53:35 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I think alot of folks don't think the trans issue is necessarily sjw-ish. I think there's science to back up the fact that a person's gender is not guaranteed to be controlled by their sex. Where it might go off the rails is the idea that biologically someone could be some other gender besides male or female.
At the end of the day there are attention starved folks who will latch on to any cause (like gluten free people that don't have ciliacs). Doesn't mean someone doesn't have a valid issue.
[deleted] ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 02:01:47 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I don't see why it doesn't follow that if gender is a matter of identity rather than biology that there are people who don't identify with either female or male genders.
Also, I don't get the hate for gluten free people. I hate mushrooms, mustard and clams. Nobody get's up in my gonch about being mushroom-free and claim it's about attention. What somebody choses to eat or not to eat doesn't necessarily make them desperate for drama and attention so much as personal preference.
General_Pants ยท 10 points ยท Posted at 17:58:40 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Ah yes, Tall Guy
JZBurger ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 18:02:38 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Pocketdog?
TheHeadGoon ยท 12 points ยท Posted at 17:12:44 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Maybe she goes to a place where people get offended if you don't ask, so overtime she made it a habit of asking
c3534l ยท 49 points ยท Posted at 17:31:34 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I had a class where we had to stand up and say our names, our major, our pronouns, one "interesting fact" about us, etc. Everyone was skipping the pronoun bit because, really wtf, and every time she got offended and made us clearly state that we "identified" with being male or female. One person said "what kind of question is that?" and an unrelated chick got really pissed and said "I don't know if anyone has told you yet, but now we choose our gender and you can have he/him, she/her, or xi/xir, got it?" These people are real and they won't accept anything other than that they're 100% right and everyone is required to do what they say.
[deleted] ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 02:20:27 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I heard they drink the blood of children at night and control the highest levels of government.
[deleted] ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 18:27:43 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
ElagabalusRex ยท 20 points ยท Posted at 19:52:50 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
wew lad
Subvs ยท 9 points ยท Posted at 21:22:36 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Can you please explain to me how people he prefer a certain pronoun are fascists? Not sealioning either, in genuinely curious how does that logic work
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 21:52:33 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
c3534l ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 23:03:28 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
To be fair, no one was assaulted and the class has since contained little politics or ideology. The pledge of allegience is a far more fascist ritual. People were just kind of uncomfortable having to implicitly buy into a particular bit of ideology and not being given an out. No one in the class was of an ambiguous gender, it was just silly really. I'd liken it more to having going around the room asking everyone what their spirit animal was and not being allowed to just skip the question. Like, I don't believe in pretend genders, just leave me alone.
eviscerate-me ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 02:11:00 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You don't have to subscribe to a certain ideology to have a preferred pronoun set. Do you like being called he? Yes? Cool, there you go. I'm just saying, its not the same as asking someone what their spirit animal is.
portodhamma ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 05:39:01 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
There's more to being fascist than enforcing your will on others. You might as well say that the US government is fascist for pushing their own views on murder and rape and not allowing dissent.
[deleted] ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 19:44:35 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
ya can't expect stupid people to use their brains
[deleted] ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 02:23:10 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Sounds like you've got some pretty nasty imaginary friends. And they're starting a category together! Sounds scary.
ShiroNoOokami ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 07:39:38 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I seriously don't get it. Is it really that hard to take an extra 3 seconds to say a pronoun?
Are you a mind reader? Because there is absolutely no other way that you know that no-one there is trans.
If it makes even one person in that class comfortable being themselves, not hiding and being forced to lie about who they are, why not just go along with it? Is it really worth it to get so upset about a 3 second statement, once, and only at the beginning of the first class, when people are introducing themselves anyway?
Jesus Christ on a bike people, you don't have to be a SJW to treat people with a modicum of dignity.
noeljaboy ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 22:10:20 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
This "xi/xir" thing has now been spelled 3 different ways in this thread (ze/zer/zim, xe/xer/xim). If you're going to make shit up, at least get on the same page as to how it's spelled.
c3534l ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 22:30:48 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
She said it like "zebra" and "Ian Ziering." I recalled seeing it spelled with an x before (like xylophone or xerox), but I have a hard time accepting that made-up pronouns have a correct spelling anyway.
soynanyos ยท 10 points ยท Posted at 18:19:23 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Just say, "I prefer them in English."
Megaman0WillFuckUrGF ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 16:54:13 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Ja.
You can call me Ja Rule
Loreki ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 20:16:41 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Which HQGiffer is stolen from?
๐๏ธ infidiLL ยท 10 points ยท Posted at 20:27:53 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I made this.
Dookie_boy ยท 11 points ยท Posted at 21:01:06 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You made this ?
I made this.
[deleted] ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 19:50:37 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I don't get this joke
14mal02 ยท 31 points ยท Posted at 17:39:43 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
This comment section is an absolute dumpster fire.
beelzeflub ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 21:43:24 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Seriously. Where did all this hate and vehemence come from?
14mal02 ยท -2 points ยท Posted at 22:02:41 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
No idea, I always forget how transphobic reddit can get.
Snailic ยท 16 points ยท Posted at 22:40:05 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Its not transphobic FFS.
If you are a male -> female or in the process, you can just correct than and politely say that you prefer to go by "she/her" or whatever. If you are female -> male or in the process, you can just say you prefer to go by "he/him".
There is no need to make 100+ "gender specific" pronouns just so everyone can feel a little special.
bonkbonkbonkbonk ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 01:20:52 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I hate stupid people, not their genitals
pokelord13 ยท -5 points ยท Posted at 21:11:46 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I feel like throwing up after seeing all the comments that actually support this
14mal02 ยท -5 points ยท Posted at 22:01:52 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Oh man, how dare someone ask you a question? Seriously though, how on earth does someone supporting this harm you?
Infiiidel ยท 12 points ยท Posted at 19:52:35 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
My pronoun is Fรผhrer.
I identify as "Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fรผhrer"
On all levels except physical, I am 14/88.
[Zyklons internally]
sevenmilliontons ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 05:20:31 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Don't worry, buddy. Me and 4 other people got it.
murphymc ยท 12 points ยท Posted at 16:58:52 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I prefer Hugh and Mungous.
LaReddoux ยท 11 points ยท Posted at 23:01:56 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Why's this sick a bad thing... A little unconventional yeah, but some people are made to feel realty uncomfortable and upset by the wrong pronouns... It's just nice that she cares that much
mordardvarg ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 01:03:15 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Yeah i thought it was sweet of her :(
royalstaircase ยท 127 points ยท Posted at 15:31:13 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I dunno why that's so bad. She just wants to be sure that she doesn't insult you by assuming your gender. You just say "I like he!" and then you keep talking about whatever other stupid shit you were discussing.
Brikachu ยท 337 points ยท Posted at 15:37:13 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Because assuming a person's gender is a pretty normal thing to do. Why make the rest of the 99% of the population go out of their way to "not offend" anyone and, instead, if you're transgender, tell people the pronouns you want to have used to describe you?
babybebop2 ยท 27 points ยท Posted at 16:51:58 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
How does her asking that mean that 99% of the population has to do it?
wayv___ ยท -6 points ยท Posted at 18:29:05 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
99% of the population dosn't currently have to do it, but it is a step towards normalising the question in everyday conversation so they would be inflicted by it in future.
babybebop2 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 19:29:14 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I mean I agree its a weird question to ask someone with no context that would suggest they use other pronouns, but "inflicted by it in the future?" I don't think it would ever be normalized because the majority of people use pronouns that match their appearance, but why pretend that its taking over? Or that 99% of the population will be forced to ask or have the question "inflicted upon them", whatever that means?
roadtoanna ยท 47 points ยท Posted at 15:44:24 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It may be over cautious, but why is it awkward or bad?
snoharm ยท 139 points ยท Posted at 15:57:36 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
"Hey, do you prefer not to have me look you in the eyes for this conversation?"
There are people for whom this question is a good one, but if you ask it of everyone you talk to, it's strange and off-putting.
Darkcheops ยท 30 points ยท Posted at 17:53:27 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I'm a guy with a pretty feminine build and a high pitch voice. I've been mistaken for a woman before. Someone asking me this question rather than assuming I'm a man would fuck with my self esteem for a while.
[deleted] ยท 15 points ยท Posted at 18:34:57 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
haironbae ยท -5 points ยท Posted at 20:36:41 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
And now you get what the endgoal is.
Heterosexual masculinity is the enemy of the liberal left. This is a result of every "disenfranchised" group coming together and putting all their blame on one group of people.
Binarytobis ยท 32 points ยท Posted at 17:21:20 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
There are 100,000 other equally valid unnecessary things someone could ask at the beginning of a conversation.
"Are you afraid of loud noises? Does anyone in your family have Parkinson's? Have you ever lived in the Middle East? Is "blade" one of your trigger words?"
There needs to be some default assumptions when starting a conversation. A simple correction is the most reasonable way to handle it unless you are trying to force them into a PC discussion that they might have zero interest in.
polymesh ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 22:22:06 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Even asking a question at all assumes the person can hear, speak English, or can speak at all.
IVIaskerade ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 01:09:30 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
God we're such shitlords.
Marokiii ยท 228 points ยท Posted at 15:54:49 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
because its completely unnecessary. why do the majority of people who respond naturally have to alter the way of a normal conversation to accommodate such a tiny portion of the population? i can go out and ask 100 people what pronouns they want to be called, and probably 99 of those people will respond with the regular pronouns. im not asking everyone if they are a 'special butterfly' when chances are they are just a regular one.
edit: this is a society full of adults, you should be able to have your chosen pronouns not used when being talked with and still somehow survive and not die immediately.
roadtoanna ยท 10 points ยท Posted at 18:03:40 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I guess I agree that it isn't necessary and that in fact most of the trans people I know would find it suspiciously in vogue to be concerned about it, but I'd just kind of inwardly assume the person is silly but means well, not insulted as several people here seem to be.
DionyKH ยท 20 points ยท Posted at 18:50:11 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Nobody's insulted. We're just not interested in being friends with someone insane enough to think that's an appropriate conversation starter. It's not offensive, it is a glaring neon sign saying "Crazy shit ahead, turn back now"
Trigger_Me_Harder ยท -6 points ยท Posted at 22:29:24 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You guys seem really insulting. It's not "insane" to ask a simple question. The overreaction to it seems far crazier.
bonkbonkbonkbonk ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 01:16:30 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Well, I.. uh..
i'm gonna...
walks away
deadlyenmity ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 07:14:27 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Dude what the fuck why is her being polite a bad thing?
Yeah it's unnecessary but she's literally going out of her way to know more about this person and and make them feel accepted.
Why does that upset you so much?
Marokiii ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 08:37:02 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
im responding this way because im giving a response to another comment and not the OP who posted the reaction.
the other comment is suggesting that even though its overly cautious that there isnt really a downside to everyone asking everyone else what pronouns they want to be called.
you can read my response to that comment, and its not really upset at all.
ccfccc ยท -29 points ยท Posted at 16:12:02 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Nobody suggested that, you are being ridiculous. People are saying that in this hypothetical scenario, that certainly is incredibly rare, it would be best to just say he or she and continue on without reacting like a child and running off. As an adult, you really shouldn't think this is an issue.
Marokiii ยท 36 points ยท Posted at 16:26:02 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
but they are...the people im responding to are asking why its a bad idea to simply be over cautious and ask everyone which pronouns they want to be called.
its a bad idea because for nearly all conversations its going to give the normal response and be unnecessary. if someone wants to be called a different pronoun than what they appear to me, they can tell me, im not going to ask every person if im addressing them the way they want.
ccfccc ยท -5 points ยท Posted at 16:56:39 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
But you yourself have nothing to do. Stop being paranoid, this happens so rarely in real life. The world is not tumblr.
Doomsayer189 ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 18:01:47 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Even on tumblr it's not that bad. People just see one or two examples and freak out.
HorseCode ยท -9 points ยท Posted at 16:37:00 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Nobody was saying you had to go out of your way to ask everyone what their pronouns are, OP was asking what's so bad about the situation in the title, where someone just asks you what pronouns you prefer. OP was saying it's ridiculous to react so strongly to someone asking you when you can just say "he" and move on, as opposed to choosing to completely dissociate with that person, which is your choice of course, but it is pretty ridiculous.
Swie ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:39:07 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It's indicative that this person is probably a little TOO preoccupied with genders if they do this and/or gets very very upset at being misgendered so they have to prevent it at all costs by passive-aggressively forcing you to ask what their pronouns are by asking yours. That's the impression I would get.
Which is why an overwhelming majority of people including trans people do not do this.
Granted literally running away is silly, but lowering your opinion of them based on their weird behaviour isn't.
HorseCode ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 20:26:18 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
That's making alot of negative judgement based on something that's still a courteous gesture in origin.
joydivision1234 ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 19:08:06 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Is your conversation time that valuable? I mean if 50% of the parties in the conversation think its worth it to spend five seconds to find out that information, is your time sooo valuable that you can't indulge that with a two second answer?
Marokiii ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 19:15:48 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
is the person wanting to have a different pronoun so incapable of bringing it up themselves that they must rely completely on others to do it for them?
why do the 99.42%(only 0.58% of the population in the usa identifies as transgender) of the population who are not transgender spend the effort when it could simply be solved by having those who have an issue with it solve it themselves?
throwyourshieldred ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 19:31:47 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
This is like asking why you have to shake someone's hand when you meet them. You don't have to, sometimes it's nice or respectful.
Marokiii ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 19:53:51 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
ya its really not. one is a questioning of someones gender when normally its pretty obvious, and the other is a standard form of greeting. one is a question, the other is not.
plus in some instances i would find someone questioning my gender very disrespectful.
throwyourshieldred ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 19:56:06 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
Right, but so would they. That's why they're asking, so they don't get your gender wrong and offend you.
Marokiii ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 20:04:48 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
why dont we just have the 1 person in 200 who would be offended and have them speak up instead of the 199 other people asking what amounts to pointless questions to the rest of the 199 people just to not offend that 1 person?
throwyourshieldred ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:07:28 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Again, you don't HAVE to ask. Some people find it polite to ask.
joydivision1234 ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 19:36:02 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Because who cares? If someone wants to ask, like what else were you gonna do with that same amount of time that you don't get to do now? Have another sip of your drink? Say "soo..."?
I don't ask this question when I meet people, but I think it's really telling how emotional people react to being asked it. This should not matter to you, and it does. Why is that?
Marokiii ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 19:50:34 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
the same reason im against making the majority of people change when what they are doing is really not doing anyone any harm just so that a minuscule portion of the population can feel good. when the same end could be accomplished by that small portion of people doing this themselves.
the same reason when i go to a restaurant if i have an allergy thats uncommon i have to ask for a list of ingredients to make sure my allergy isnt on that list, instead of the waiter asking everyone at the table if they have allergies.
Narhen ยท -30 points ยท Posted at 16:18:59 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Its simply common courtesy. There are more transgender people than you think, especially if you go out into the real world and experience reality, like I did. I go to a small agriculture-based University in Midwestern Wisconsin. You wouldn't believe how many transgender people there are, and those people are the population that is open and active on campus. Imagine how many hide their identity because of fear.
If you care about being inclusive and having an inclusive community, asking gender pronouns is fairly normal. The changes our society is experiencing in how we think about gender also makes it fairly normal. You're simply assuming that 99/100 people are cis-gender, and thats the problem. There are people who dont identify that way. Making those assumptions excludes an, albeit unknown in size, population. Maybe if we began to be more inclusive of the transgender population instead of shaming them into hiding, we would find out how big the transgender population really is. You're saying that we shouldnt make adjustments to a tiny and necessary part of conversation because the population is not the majority, That just doesnt make sense.
Marokiii ยท 9 points ยท Posted at 16:40:02 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
im not assuming, various govt agencies(like health agencies) have studied it, and their best estimate of people who identify as transgender is at 0.58%. so in fact i was being generous when i said 99/100 identify normally(i didnt even say cis-gender, i talked about normal pronouns which gay and lesbian people still identify normally as).
edmoneyyy90 ยท 21 points ยท Posted at 16:26:30 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Actually judging by statistics, there are way less transgender people than I think. I live in Virginia and never see any trans people ever, I've been out in the real world plenty of times, seen a couple at musical festivals. Probably less than 5 in my entire life. I assume more than 99 out of 100 people are cis, more like 499 out of 500 based on real statistics.
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 19:03:39 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
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edmoneyyy90 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:24:41 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Okโฆโฆanecdotal evidence means nothing. That was kind of the point of my first comment, the guy I was replying to was using anecdotal evidence so I threw my hat in.
Narhen ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 16:28:45 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Source?
Marokiii ยท 15 points ยท Posted at 16:50:32 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
http://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/How-Many-Adults-Identify-as-Transgender-in-the-United-States.pdf
transgender people make up about .58% of the population in the USA according to all of our best information.
throwyourshieldred ยท -12 points ยท Posted at 17:43:04 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
That's a great reason to be a dick.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 00:12:13 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
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throwyourshieldred ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 00:51:13 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Most sane people would just politely correct you, not get upset. Some people find it curteous to ask ahead of time. No one is asking you to "revamp" anything, at least not by much.
edmoneyyy90 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 17:53:20 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
http://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/research/census-lgbt-demographics-studies/how-many-people-are-lesbian-gay-bisexual-and-transgender/ Guess it's a bit old, it's gone up a bit I'm sure, but still very small in the grand scheme of things.
royalstaircase ยท -8 points ยท Posted at 17:26:39 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Spoiler alert: not all transgendered people can be recognized from voice or appearance alone. You've met much much more transgender people than you realize.
edmoneyyy90 ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 17:56:05 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Yeah I realize that, but I go to a local community college about to get my Associates and I've never met one person in any class that identifies as anything but cis. Perhaps, I live in a less progressive place or maybe you're in a bit of a liberal arts bubble based on the school you go to.
royalstaircase ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 20:51:40 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You will meet someone soon then. I've met at least a ton of nonbinary people in the past few years but barely any before that.
WoWhAolic ยท 11 points ยท Posted at 16:33:26 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
A college is a terrible place to say is 'in the real world' when referring to how people are acting socially. When they're no longer huddled together in a place where they adjust themselves to belong to a group then they tend to normalize and finish growing up into who they are. Young college kids are unsupervised high schoolers in most senses.
It's like the hardcore feminist college students, the 'all sex is rape' kind. Their intensity tends to taper out and they mellow out when they get into the actual real world. Either that or they become like the girl I posted about who blamed her ineptitude on sexism just the other day. Either that or like the CEO of Yahoo who fired men for being men and is getting sued.
In the real world assuming 99/100 people are cis-gender would be incorrect, the real number would probably be much closer to 99,999/100,000 or an even smaller portion.
People in college who are trans are usually just people who enjoy things that their gender traditionally doesn't. It used to be called being a tomboy or a femme or other more insulting slurs.
fitzydog ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 16:46:22 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Those are insulting slurs?
Jesus Christ what is happening to the thick skin of this world...
WoWhAolic ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 17:14:45 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It's OK, now one of these people are butthurt downvoting all my recent posts.
It's sad really.
[deleted] ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 19:02:14 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
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Marokiii ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 19:04:30 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
the one that matches their gender. like he and she. its regular/normal since based on the best information we have in the USA, 99.42% of the population identifies normally with he or she according to their biology. 99.42% of a population doing something the same way makes that way regular and normal.
source: in the usa, 0.58% of the population identifies as transgender
[deleted] ยท -3 points ยท Posted at 19:09:47 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
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Marokiii ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:13:23 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
do you mean sexual orientation. because legally your gender and your sex are the same thing. if you mean sexual orientation, that has no impact on general conversation and use of pronouns when talking to anyone.
[deleted] ยท -3 points ยท Posted at 19:15:39 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
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Marokiii ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 19:21:36 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
my drivers license and tax form disagree with you to not having a legal sex. for almost all of society, your sex and gender are going to match. this isnt some big consipiracy to lock people into roles, its based on psychology of the sexes and how its shaped society. society and how it is today, is a direct result of our psychology based on our biology.
gender is not a construct of society, society is a construct of gender.
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 19:27:54 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
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Marokiii ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:07:47 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
ive always used certified programs to file, and they have always asked if im a mr, ms or mrs. figured that was good enough for gender questions.
also, its on you passport.
your example of for your drivers license, you need a certified doctor to show that you have gone through a gender reassignment surgery to claim you are of a different gender now. the biggest example of legality and gender, is the prison system. legally someone is a certain gender and that dictates which prison or sections of prisons you go to.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:27:30 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
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Marokiii ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 20:29:50 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
except in this case, it does very much matter what someone writes down, and it does mean you have a legal sex. it can be changed, that doesnt mean its not what you are legally. i can legally change my name, that doesnt mean that my name before wasnt legal.
TheJigglyfat ยท -3 points ยท Posted at 19:04:42 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
This is a society of adults. We should be able to respect people's wishes as, long as they don't harm us, to the best of our abilities even if those wishes seem a little silly.
Marokiii ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 19:10:29 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
i have never once said dont call them the pronoun they have asked you to, i have said its ridiculous to go and start all conversations with new people by asking them what pronouns they want to be called to make sure i dont offend them. especially if the person wants to be called something else, can just tell me that themselves. i dont have to sort through every single person i meet to find the 1 person in 200, when that 1 person could just identify themselves to me(if they wanted to, or even cared).
the comment i was responding to was basically suggesting that is what people should do anyways, by questioning if there is anything bad about doing it. there is something bad about it, because its unnecessary.
edit: this would also put gender identity at the forefront of the introduction with ever single transgender person i meet, maybe they dont want to have that conversation with ever single person they meet on a daily basis. maybe they would just like to have their sexuality left alone by strangers until they feel like it should be brought up by themselves.
23skiddsy ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 19:05:10 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
For passing trans people, asking preferred pronouns tends to INDUCE dysphoria, not reduce it.
_Eggs_ ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 21:02:01 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It's just trying too hard and is completely unnecessary. It's straight-up cringe-worthy.
"So I saw this black guy at the store - I'm not racist btw - and he told me..."
"Anyway, my mom was cooking dinner - I'm not sexist btw, she just likes to cook and not because she's a woman - and I noticed that..."
"Oh I met this new girl - or guy, because I don't know how she or he or they identifies/identify or what her or his or their pronouns are - and I think she or he or they is/are pretty cool."
DO_THE_HARLEM_SHAKE_ ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:48:30 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Are you serious? You'd look like a lunatic.
eviscerate-me ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 02:18:19 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Sometimes it's not worth telling someone or trying to explain new concepts to people. You have enough shit to worry about as a transgender person, sometimes you don't feel like having to explain your gender to the librarian or your neighbor or an old friend or whoever. No one's expecting the entire population to ask every person they meet what their pronouns are, we're just saying it's really not that outrageous. It's one question that can be answered in one sentence. Boom, done.
redminx17 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:18:36 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
That does not make it a bad thing that this one individual tried to be considerate by asking. Goddamn, that is not some sort of attack on "99%" of humanity and everyone needs to stop blowing it out of proportion.
ShallowBasketcase ยท -2 points ยท Posted at 19:19:37 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
Because it's really common for transgender people to be met with physical violence when they tell people what pronouns to use.
Even if you're just a cis person asking another cis person what pronouns you use, it's possible there's a trans or genderqueer person in the room hearing you that feels a little more comfortable now. Asking about gender pronouns is the first step toward fostering a culture where someone feels like they can say "actually I prefer 'she'" without wondering if they'll still have all their teeth by the end of the sentence.
All the otherkin and ridiculous pronoun abuse you hear about on online doesn't really happen in real life with nearly as much frequency as Reddit conservatives and Tumblristas would have you believe. Mainly it's just ordinary people who feel more comfortable using "he" instead of "she."
timetraveler00 ยท -64 points ยท Posted at 15:42:19 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Being racist used to be a "pretty normal thing to do". Just because it's normal doesn't make it right.
Brikachu ยท 62 points ยท Posted at 15:53:01 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Did you just compare racism to assuming a person's gender?
HWK_KhaoTiK ยท 29 points ยท Posted at 15:46:52 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Saying what you just said doesn't prove how assuming someone's gender is wrong.
timetraveler00 ยท -11 points ยท Posted at 15:52:24 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
That's true. But the only point I was trying to make is that saying it's normal doesn't automatically make it right
WoWhAolic ยท 10 points ยท Posted at 16:36:48 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
lmao! looking at a person and seeing their biology and assuming that they're a man or woman based on appearance isn't bigotry. Why would you even think something like that?
timetraveler00 ยท -4 points ยท Posted at 16:40:09 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I wasn't calling anyone a bigot. The only point I was trying to make is that something that's a cultural norm or tradition doesn't automatically make it right.
WoWhAolic ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 17:09:29 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
You made a direct correlation to not asking someone's gender being akin to being a racist. In fact
You DIRECTLY linked it to racism.
I see that a lot from people defending obscure or abnormal differences in people. It's not okay to liken racism to the natural assumption that a person is a man in a man's body, or a woman in a woman's body.
throwyourshieldred ยท -2 points ยท Posted at 17:44:54 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
He clarified and you're being purposely dense because you don't want to address his real point
WoWhAolic ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 03:09:26 on October 11, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
If you read into his comment you'll understand why I said he did link directly that not asking a person's gender in a conversation to the levels of bigotry involved in racism. He said it outright.
I was not being dense, I was being straightforward in my criticism of the manner used in making his argument.
If young people truly wish to argue in a manner which will reach all peoples they must learn to do so in a way that can be accepted or at least listened to by all peoples. The schism caused by this polar way of argument and has lead to the current state in the US of Trump being supported by all manners of people from bigots to racists to common folk who are frustrated at being evil for not believing everything that liberal media tells them.
If we could have a discussion where we could understand one another and not be at each others throats then maybe we could move forward with a mutual understanding. The first step is to stop calling everyone who's not part of 'you' evil.
MLK Jr. didn't start violent riots, he started peaceful protests, he started conversation, he vented his frustrations in a way that resonated and was understood by many.
That's the difference between today's movements and others. But I honestly think a lot of the ground that many of these movements are based in would crumble under scrutiny. I think a lot of the real problems could finally get addressed, too. Gender inequalities for both sides, racial inequalities for any side that feels it needs it. We could actually discuss these things.
That's just my opinion though.
There is my response to his real point.
WoWhAolic ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 17:23:01 on October 11, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
See I knew you didn't want a real response. You just want to sit in your echo chamber being agreed with.
throwyourshieldred ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 17:55:56 on October 11, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
How could you know that. You're responding to a different person.
royalstaircase ยท -18 points ยท Posted at 16:17:04 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
assuming gender is the establishment thing to do, but it's generally more polite to ask someone's gender just in case, if you're someone that cares about that or live in a very socially-open community like a university where you'll find more people with preferred pronouns.
Brikachu ยท 21 points ยท Posted at 16:20:14 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Never once had an issue assuming people's pronouns at the very liberal, small, liberal arts college I went to. The tumblrinas I went to school with made it very clear what gender they were.
royalstaircase ยท -7 points ยท Posted at 16:26:07 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
Well I go a small liberal liberal arts college myself and have friends and classmates whose pronouns aren't what you could ascertain from appearance alone. And it's not abnormal here to hear students (or even professors on the first day of classes) to ask what your preferred pronoun is during introductions. And this is a normal university; it usually shows up in top 100 or 200 lists of colleges, and there's nothing about it that would particularly attract people of nonbinary genders. just some places are more open and accommodating about this kind of stuff i suppose.
Binarytobis ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 17:26:58 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Be polite by making mixed-pronoun people feel slightly more welcome not having to bring it up themselves, while being impolite to the other >99% of people you are now forcing into a discussion about PC terms and transgender identity when they just wanted to talk about the weather. How nice and polite of you.
royalstaircase ยท -8 points ยท Posted at 17:30:09 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Nobody's forcing anyone into a discussion of PC terms, you just say that you identify as female or whatever and then you get back to your important discussion of the weather. Obviously you wouldn't ask this to everybody, but if you're at a point where you're already asking what's your name, what's your job, what was/is your college major, you might as well just ask about pronouns if it's something you care about asking.
Binarytobis ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 17:44:04 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It's not a huge burden, but it is a burden and you are putting it on the larger part of the population to save the smaller part no real effort. It makes people feel awkward for no reason, unless the idea is to make people feel awkward as a mechanism for change, which is fine but you can't be surprised that people resent it.
royalstaircase ยท -8 points ยท Posted at 17:49:24 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
The only burden is on the person asking, it takes no effort to say "I like she" and move on. Anyone who feels awkward about it is just not used to it.
Binarytobis ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 17:59:03 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It takes a little bit of effort and time, and the beginning of the conversation where things are still volatile. Not a huge deal effort wise but still an unnecessary one. As far as feeling awkward, you don't really get to be the arbitrator of who gets to feel things and why. Clearly from this thread there are plenty of people who feel awkward in this situation.
There is some value in making a trans person feel less awkward by asking, but if they aren't comfortable bringing it up themselves, do they even want to be called out?
royalstaircase ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 20:50:04 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You're talking about this as if the only time you'd ask someone for their pronoun is if you think they're transgender. That's not the case.
Binarytobis ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 21:17:57 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
True, replace "trans person" with "person who prefers certain pronouns" and it will be what I meant to say.
royalstaircase ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 21:19:09 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
But the entire point of asking for pronouns is to NOT make assumptions. You can't assume by not assuming.
Binarytobis ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 22:03:07 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
The whole point is that you don't want people to feel bad, so you ask for their pronouns, right? So the objective here is "What do I say that causes the least bad feelings?". From that perspective, you cause a lot more bad feelings by asking for pronouns than by not.
And either way you are assuming hundreds of things whether you admit it or not. Are you going to sign "Are you deaf?" before a conversation? Are you going to ask them in Spanish if they speak English? It just doesn't make sense to cover every angle.
weltraumzauber ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 16:45:50 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
If you come to my party and ask every single guest if they're a boy or a girl, I swear.
royalstaircase ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 17:20:37 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
What would you do? Get mad at someone for being polite? I'm not someone that usually asks about preferred pronouns but I'd totally do it just to see you get all cranky over something so frivolous.
[deleted] ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 00:08:06 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
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Brikachu ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 00:12:38 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Why? Because I find it unnecessary to ask people what gender they are, and instead use my eyes and ears to do so? If that makes me "triggered," so be it, I guess.
[deleted] ยท 16 points ยท Posted at 17:51:32 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
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[deleted] ยท -6 points ยท Posted at 18:50:19 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
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Lazylion2 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 20:46:20 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Pain?
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:57:31 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
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Lazylion2 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 21:45:27 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
A child dying of hunger is pain. This sound more like expectations not fulfilled
royalstaircase ยท -4 points ยท Posted at 21:03:27 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
the same pain you'd feel if someone assumed you were a woman if you're a man.
Lazylion2 ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 21:42:13 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I wouldn't care
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 00:14:39 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
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[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 00:24:44 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
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[deleted] ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 05:56:04 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
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[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 08:24:59 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
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[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 16:55:22 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
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[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:53:22 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
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royalstaircase ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 20:54:05 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I dunno why asking is such a big deal. You ask, they answer, and it's done. No assumptions necessary.
GhostOfMuttonPast ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 18:07:49 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I mean, if you've been friends for a long time, they should know.
royalstaircase ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:49:04 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Not necessarily. I have a friend who went by he for their entire life, and i knew them for three years, and then they decided to chance their pronoun to "they" last summer. It's something that can change.
IKSSE3 ยท 19 points ยท Posted at 15:48:50 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
OP is just sensitive
BoonesFarmGrape ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 18:16:06 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
lol ya definitely not a signal that an avalanche of batshit tumblr stuff is incoming
royalstaircase ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 20:48:13 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It isn't in fact a signal of "batshit tumblr stuff". I can tell you that from experience after having many conversations where someone mentions pronouns early on and never gets brought up again.
BoonesFarmGrape ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 05:45:01 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
yes because by then they've moved on to raving about patriarchy, rape culture, and Steven Universe
royalstaircase ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 14:32:11 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I see you think that real life works like the internet. Good for you.
BoonesFarmGrape ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 14:39:14 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
one of us claims to have had many IRL conversations about pronouns, so you tell me
royalstaircase ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 14:42:25 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Fabulous idea, I will tell you.
I go to a college that is generally very accommodating to people who have non-binary genders or prefer certain pronouns, so often in the introductions to classes the professor will have everyone go in a round and mention their name, major, and preferred pronoun. And I have some friends that will mention that they prefer a certain pronoun if they've been talking with someone long enough, and some will ask someone else just in case.
This has become pretty normal for me, so it's weird to come on reddit and see people being so confused about it all.
BoonesFarmGrape ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 15:03:39 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
and you feel your experience as a student at a hyperprogressive college remotely approximates "real life", do you
royalstaircase ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 15:09:14 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
well I'm not in a computer game, am I?
Elephaux ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 20:08:31 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I'd nope out of a conversation that started like this, it's just an indication that the I would have some fundamental, most likely irreconcilable differences of opinion with this person.
I'm a big ol' tumblr-hating white man that sincerely believes that for 99% of cases, biological sex and psychological gender are the same bloody thing. If you want to change your appearance to the other gender, cool, but you pick male or female - there are no other options. I will "gender" your based on what I see, if you're not passing, I won't instinctively identify you as your target gender.
royalstaircase ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:44:25 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
But why is this such a big deal to you? Does it really take that much effort to say "they" rather than he or she? You already do it already when you refer to people without specifying a gender ("the future president bought their spouse a cat", for example), why is it such a leap to use "they" when referring to a specific person?
Lazylion2 ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 20:51:34 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
Because I'm lazy and think it's dumb . Just let me talk like I'm used to without your new millennial bullshit
royalstaircase ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:54:55 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It's difficult for me too sometimes, but once you get used to it it takes no effort.
IVIaskerade ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 01:13:03 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
First half of that sentence doesn't agree with the second half.
royalstaircase ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 02:47:15 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
By difficult I mean that I slip up occasionally (particularly with friends who I knew by a certain pronoun and now have to remember to call them differently now) but I've gotten better.
Elephaux ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 21:13:03 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I'm in the vast majority of people that would experience some distaste at the usage of the phrase "assuming your gender". I have nothing against trans people, but the simple fact is that I am extremely unlikely to interact with them IRL because of where I live and the circles I run in.
I would happily use a gender-neutral pronoun if someone was very very very androgenous-looking or I hadn't met them and they had a gender-neutral first name, but that's not the issue. The question you asked was what is the problem with someone asking what pronouns you prefer, and I gave my answer.
I don't like my speech being policed. If I met someone and seemed to get on, but it turned out they were a massive racist or homophobe, I would not want to be their friend because I am neither of those things. If I met someone that was, for lack of a better word, an SJW, I would not want anything to do with them. Maybe they're a great person, but we would disagree on too many things that are important to me.
royalstaircase ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 21:16:49 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
But by asking for your pronoun, the opposite of "speech policing" is occurring. you're being asked for the pronoun that you prefer, and they want to accommodate you for it.
Elephaux ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 21:42:18 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I'm a 6'2" dude with a beard. No one is ever going to going to think I'm not a man. It's not a problem I'll ever encounter.
I don't know any transgender people, none of my friends or my girlfriend's friends or my clients know any transgender people. If I come across any, I'll be sure to try and guess what they want to be called. It's usually pretty obvious.
If I came across someone "non-binary", I would, 100% truthfully, tell them to get a grip, stop living in fantasy land, ask them if they didn't get enough attention as a child, and tell them to pick: he/she/it.
Real talk here: Personally, if I was going M2F, and people kept asking what my pronouns were, I'd be pretty fucking pissed off that no one is paying attention to how I'm trying to present. Isn't drawing attention to the ambiguity just as problematic? Like, I know you're obviously a dude trying to become a woman, and life must be pretty hard anyway, but instead of just noticing and moving on, I'll deliberately draw attention to the subject.
Since when did the teenagers that cried "don't label me!" become so bloody obsessed with labels?
IVIaskerade ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 01:14:36 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Right about the time they realised it's another stick to beat you over the head with.
kickass404 ยท 14 points ยท Posted at 15:51:04 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I'll take down votes for $1000 and answer:
If you look and dress as a male, you are a 'he'. If you look and dress as a female, you are a 'she'. Anything else is on the other side of the line that marks the lunatic area. Also called "I identify as 'tin can of worms', please use 'it'" area. The dude looking like Arnold Schwarzenegger running around 'Identifying' as a she is just pure attention grab bullshit.
royalstaircase ยท 22 points ยท Posted at 16:19:07 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Clothing is a bit of an absurd choice to determine gender with. Plenty of women wear men's clothes, and there are lots of men who dress in a way that gets assumed as feminine (metrosexual is what I guess it's called.)
OP's friend was just trying to be polite, it's nothing to get so anal about.
IVIaskerade ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 01:12:00 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Even amongst those, only the most butch bulkdykes would give people pause.
royalstaircase ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 02:52:55 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
So you agree that clothes aren't a good factor for determining gender?
IVIaskerade ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 05:55:46 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
What? No, clothing is a good indicator in the vast majority of cases.
Rolten ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:32:42 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Nah, OP's friend is the classic example of people who find the whole trans thing way too important and find standing up for it anally a big part of who they are.
Transexuals are really fucking rare. People are a he or a she defined by how they look, unless they tell you otherwise. That might be a tiny inconvenience for them, but it's not up to the rest of the world to anally accommodate 0.01% (or less) of the population.
In the same way, I'm going to continue making penis sculptures out of snow / clapping my hands instead of using jazz hands / spreading my legs if that's comfortable and there's enough room / wearing my hair any way I want / etc. It is not up to the world to accommodate those unique few that are different if the inconvenience is not excessive or unreasonable.
theorganicpotatoes ยท 60 points ยท Posted at 16:20:03 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You aren't going to get down voted on Reddit for having a narrow-minded view of transgender people sadly.
celesfar ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 17:04:18 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Too true
JurisMacto ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 17:33:37 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You mean a reality based view? A reality where society doesnt have to pander to a tiny portion of the population because someones feefees could be hurt?
[deleted] ยท 25 points ยท Posted at 17:54:25 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
[deleted]
JurisMacto ยท -3 points ยท Posted at 19:07:09 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Not all transgendered people are thin skinned attention whores. Im not discriminating against transgenderd people. Im just not pandering to the select few that are making up pronouns for attention and drama. Dont assume all transgendered people are this pedantic.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:57:17 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
FTFY
ShallowBasketcase ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 19:27:38 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
it's always weird to me when people defend this idea and say it's based in reality, but they have to ignore countless psychiatric and medical professionals who disagree with them to do it.
Surely the guy yelling on the internet knows more about what's real than the people who study this sort of thing professionally, right?
royalstaircase ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 21:05:42 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Pronouns are a matter of linguistics, not medicine.
ShallowBasketcase ยท -4 points ยท Posted at 22:38:53 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
And yet you are neither a linguist nor a medical professional. Because both would disagree with you.
cakeisgreat ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 22:49:30 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
[deleted]
ShallowBasketcase ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 23:28:39 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I love this username because it is always the response I get when people don't know what to say.
Not only is it not clever at all, but you aren't even using either of those terms correctly in that context.
cakeisgreat ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 02:30:58 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
[deleted]
royalstaircase ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 23:01:41 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Oh yeah? Are you either or both of these things?
ShallowBasketcase ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 23:31:30 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
No. Which is why I don't spread medical or linguistic information that I've made up as fact, and instead defer to what actual professionals agree on.
You don't have to be a heart surgeon to know that blood carries oxygen, do you?
royalstaircase ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 02:48:41 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Nope, and I don't need to be a psychologist to know that when my friend prefers to be referred to by a certain pronoun, it is polite to refer to them by that pronoun.
ShallowBasketcase ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 02:55:13 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Which is exactly my point.
Glad to know we're on the same page then.
JurisMacto ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 20:16:20 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
These psychiatrists say we need to pander to attention whores?
BrofessorDumbelldore ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 21:18:08 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You seriously think that all Transgender or Gender-fluid people are attention whores?
JurisMacto ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 21:21:48 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
No. You're assuming all transgendered people are pedantic attention whores who care about pronouns.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 02:15:51 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Lol. Sorry, did you receive a court order instructing you to pander to someone's gender pronouns?
Someday you'll learn that different people live in different realities. But for now enjoy your pretend world where everyone thinks the same as you.
JurisMacto ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 02:27:52 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I think the whole point of reality is that there is only one of them. Also, clearly not everybody thinks the same as me. You for example.
[deleted] ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 02:37:03 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
That hasn't been true since monarchism. But I understand why it would make you feel safe to pretend there is just one reality. In some sense there really is just one: yours! After all, I might not even exist. These are just words on your computer, right?
JurisMacto ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 03:47:06 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
The definition of reality: the world or the state of things as they actually exist, as opposed to an idealistic or notional idea of them.
I am beginning to think you are just trolling at this point.
jessemfkeeler ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 04:55:11 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Would you do the same to a brown skinned person and assume they were Mexican? Even though they may be South American or Spanish or East-Indian or Middle Eastern? Even though they are a tiny portion of the population? It's just called common decency.
JurisMacto ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 05:26:23 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Yes. If a white guy self identified as a black guy I wouldn't recognize him as a black guy.
kickass404 ยท -2 points ยท Posted at 17:14:23 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I don't have a problem with what ever that makes their clock tick. What I have a problem with, is that some in that small minority wants to turn our language into a cesspool of constructs because 'feelings'.
Im a white straight male, but I feel feminine today, so please refer to me as lesbian. Also I find white offensive, I am coconut coloured! So you better refer to me as a feminine lesbian coconut male and you better use 'She' because you are standing in my safe space!
throwyourshieldred ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 17:39:08 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
We get it, you think being close minded and not doing any kind of research on something before hating it is cool.
kickass404 ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 18:05:44 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Thats your close minded opinion, and not doing any kind of research on something before hating it is cool.
throwyourshieldred ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 18:46:28 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
"I know you are but what am I."
kickass404 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:00:41 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I did a quick google to help you and google says 'desperate'. Second hit was "throwyourshieldred comments on Half of U.S. women...".
iwantbeta ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 18:01:56 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
But he is downvoted. He is at -2 atm.
theorganicpotatoes ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 18:06:06 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
When I posted originally he was quite highly upvoted. It kinda swung the other way when somebody gave me gold. Thanks for that by the way. Anyways, you can see what i mean with a lot of the other comment in the thread.
Subvs ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 21:16:18 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
this is the most factual comment ever posted on this site
[deleted] ยท -8 points ยท Posted at 17:56:40 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
[removed]
theorganicpotatoes ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 17:58:34 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Classy
Numbuh7 ยท -4 points ยท Posted at 15:56:33 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
That's ok to say for people who are clearly one of the other, but say you're transitioning, and you look "male bodied" but are wearing makeup and have long hair; it's a fair-question, they might be wearing the makeup to hide spots of tonlook more feminine. Why is it so bad to ask and try to make someone more comfortable when being spoke to?
Kilane ยท 28 points ยท Posted at 16:02:07 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Do you think that makes someone more comfortable when you are speaking to them? People tend to not use gendered pronouns when talking to someone so the only result is to make it awkward and put someone on the spot.
Numbuh7 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 16:06:08 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It would make me more comfortable to know someone was referring to me correctly, personally. But I do understand what you mean, in that in the current conversation where you are asked, it may be awkward, but in the long run I'd prefer someone to be using the correct pronouns to refer to me.
laccro ยท 12 points ยท Posted at 16:59:41 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Tell me after I know you pretty well if I say it wrong. If I mistakenly call you "he", politely say "Hey, I just want you to know that I actually prefer to go by 'she'!"
And I'll make an effort to correct my speech. Simple as that. But I'd rather not know in the first few minutes of meeting you because I really don't care at that point. You're just a person until I get to know you anyways, no matter what gender you choose to be, I just care how you act and what you're interests are, etc
throwyourshieldred ยท -3 points ยท Posted at 17:37:15 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I think you're both right and should kiss
throwyourshieldred ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 17:36:08 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
So glad you could come in and just decide that for the rest of the planet.
kickass404 ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 18:04:23 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I didn't, the planet did and they put in the dictionary.
he hiห/Submit pronoun 1. used to refer to a man, boy, or male animal previously mentioned or easily identified. noun 1. a male; a man.
male meษชl/Submit adjective 1. of or denoting the sex that produces gametes, especially spermatozoa, with which a female may be fertilized or inseminated to produce offspring.
throwyourshieldred ยท -3 points ยท Posted at 18:46:05 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
So many flaws in your argument.
First of all, the "world" doesn't use the same language or dictionary throughout. Other languages throughout history have had different ideas about gender imbeded in them. Furthermore language is constantly evolving, even over short periods of time.
Second, you forgot to link to the definition of "they" which can refer to a single person of unspecified gender and has been used that way in many languages for many years.
kickass404 ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 19:13:29 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
'Furthermore language is constantly evolving, even over short periods of time.'
Sure it does, but that doesn't mean I can't advocate for a different direction than what you want. Only time will tell who "wins" by what society adopt. Currently 'He/She' is linked to biological sex that is the dominant usage.
throwyourshieldred ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 19:21:21 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I mean, you can do that, but it's not going to make transgendered people go away, so it's a bit of a losing fight. But yeah, I guess we'll "see who wins."
kickass404 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:49:31 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I don't want them to go away, I just don't want that safe space bullshit.
I.e. We are Germans and that one guy goes 'I'm not, I'm an anglo saxen viking that identifies as a British German, please use the term Britman'.
throwyourshieldred ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 20:00:00 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Haha, I made you say something different. Quit getting mad.
Anyway, I find it funny that you're complaining about safe spaces while championing a bubble of unchangeable language just because you don't want to respect a small part of the population.
kickass404 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 20:19:52 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Having me saying something different is success for you? You have low goals, you should get that checked out.
Changing everyday speech to cater to owl kin is just ridiculous. Why do you think owl kin deserves respect, what have those owls done to get that kind of respect?
throwyourshieldred ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:23:08 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
No one but you is talking about owlkin.
kickass404 ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 20:38:07 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Why are owlkin less deserving than the others? Isn't that, what did they call it, narrow minded?
throwyourshieldred ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:43:44 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It should be obvious, but you're throwing a tantrum so I'm not surprised it went over your head.
Gingerdyke ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 04:20:25 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Who cares? It's not your life. Suck it up.
jessemfkeeler ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 04:52:55 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Wait, hold on. Let's pretend this is about skin color, which works nicely. You see a brown skinned person, you look at them and you think Mexican, ahh his name is Juan, obviously Mexican. So you ask "Hey man, I love mexican food! Trump's an ass right?" Then he goes "Dude I'm Columbian." Now you look like an idiot for assuming he was Mexican. And a racist for not asking before assuming. Same thing with genders. Easy peasy. Even though there's not a whole lot of Colombianos in the US, it's still polite not to call them all Mexicans.
RyanB_ ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 16:20:40 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Literally how does it affect you at all.
Also what defines looking and dressing as a male/female changes constantly depending on time and location.
kickass404 ยท -4 points ยท Posted at 17:30:36 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
He and She have definitions, so yes, it does literally affect me.
he hiห/Submit pronoun 1. used to refer to a man, boy, or male animal previously mentioned or easily identified. "everyone liked my fatherโhe was the perfect gentleman" any person (in modern use, now chiefly replaced by โanyoneโ or โthe personโ: see usage note below). "he who is silent consents" WEST INDIAN him or his. "don't tell he nothing more" noun noun: he; plural noun: hes 1. a male; a man.
she สiห/Submit pronoun 1. used to refer to a woman, girl, or female animal previously mentioned or easily identified. "my sister told me that she was not happy" used to refer to a person or animal of unspecified sex. "only include your child if you know she won't distract you" any female person. "she who rocks the cradle rules the world" WEST INDIAN her or hers. "give she lavender oil" AUSTRALIAN/NZ it (used to refer to something not usually regarded as female). "reckon some decent weather and she'll be right" noun noun: she; plural noun: shes 1. a female; a woman.
RyanB_ ยท 9 points ยท Posted at 17:31:35 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
How does this show it affects your life at all?
Like if someone says "hey I'd prefer you refer to me using they/them, please". How would doing so have any bearing on your life.
throwyourshieldred ยท 10 points ยท Posted at 17:40:29 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Because it hurts his feelings that people are not catering to him and he has to think of others first.
RyanB_ ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 17:54:38 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
So basically he's triggered
kickass404 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 18:17:24 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Did you just assume my gender?
RyanB_ ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 18:29:44 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Yes. If I was incorrect in my assumption feel free to let me know and I will adjust accordingly.
throwyourshieldred ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 18:39:55 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I dunno, that sounds complicated and difficult.
kickass404 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 18:13:36 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Your might give in to the owl kin and add layer of layer of ridiculousness. I guess rolling over is your kin.
throwyourshieldred ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 18:48:07 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Yeah, glad we have people like you to "fight the good fight."
kickass404 ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 18:54:28 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Glad you finally recognise that I'm right.
throwyourshieldred ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 18:58:46 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I guess I shouldn't be surprised you don't understand sarcasm.
kickass404 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:09:22 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Or maybe I do and made a choice not to, because I find sarcasm offensive. Maybe we should ban that too, because it tends to hurt people. Since you're fine with changing stuff because of 'feelings' regardless of how ridiculousness something is ,we might just go all out while we are at it.
throwyourshieldred ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 19:16:23 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Haha, why are you having a meltdown? Like, do you really believe what you just said is a rational comparison? I mean you probably don't, considering you think you're fighting some battle against oppression, but just take a moment and consider how ridiculous you are.
kickass404 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:17:15 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Maybe try a mirror. Didn't even address my point.
throwyourshieldred ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 19:18:06 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
110% triggered.
kickass404 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:19:33 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Still didn't address my point. Not even surprised.
throwyourshieldred ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 19:23:55 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I replied before your edit, but there's no point to address. You're throwing a tantrum.
kickass404 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:34:14 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Still didn't address my point. Not even surprised.
throwyourshieldred ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:40:12 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Have a juice and a nap and get back to me after you've calmed down. Maybe we can have a real discussion then.
kickass404 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:50:50 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Still didn't address my point. Not even surprised.
throwyourshieldred ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 19:52:53 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Maybe I'll get around to it after you dry your eyes. Sorry pronouns hurt your fee fees
kickass404 ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 19:58:54 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Still didn't address my point. Not even surprised.
throwyourshieldred ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 20:03:09 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Woop, guess you're still mad. Darn.
kickass404 ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 20:14:27 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Still waiting for you to produce anything of value, just one tiny speck.. You can do it!
Lazylion2 ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 20:43:23 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Just want to let you guys know I'm here and watching and it was mildly entertaining
kickass404 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 18:09:06 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
If it doesn't affect mine, why does it affect theirs that I use he/she as anyone would? They wan't to change the established standard, I Don't.
RyanB_ ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 18:11:12 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Because it's their identity. It's who they identify as. To have someone purposefully ignore that would be pretty shitty.
kickass404 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 18:20:29 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Maybe it hurts my grumpy old guy identity to pander to ridiculousness? See the guy posting about the girl wanting to be referred to owl/owl's/owlself. Why is her more valid than my identity?
RyanB_ ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 18:29:06 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
If youre idea of "pandering to ridiculousness" is being a decent person and respecting other people maybe your identity could use some work.
Again I ask, how does using the pronouns someone asks you to use in reference to them impact your life at all?
[deleted] ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 19:06:16 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
kickass404 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 19:20:29 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
post a picture
[deleted] ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 19:34:16 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
kickass404 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:41:44 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Descriptions doesn't do it for me, since it is just a representation of what you see (Not claiming you're sick or anything, but to illustrate my point, asking an anorexic to describe themselve, they would say fat. Descriptions are in the eye of the beholder). Need a picture.
[deleted] ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 19:53:19 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
kickass404 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:08:29 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Well, having a hard time picturing cargo shorts, but I would use she. If you caught me off guard, I instinctually properly would say He unless your are on the feminine side with your voice/body language.
Alirius ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 19:50:33 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I call it the 'I sexually identify as an apache-helicopter' area.
faunablues ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 01:51:00 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It's possible that she thought OP looks androgynous (or more than he had before) and was trying to get a handle on the situation.
Many are assuming the asker leads every conversation this way.
royalstaircase ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 02:46:06 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I have no clue if that was the truth in OP's specific case (assuming OP isn't just making up a funny caption to relate to that gif), but all instances IRL where I've heard people request or ask for someone else's preferred pronouns have never been because of assumptions, but just being polite while coming from someone who is very sensitive towards pronouns.
InsulinDependent ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 17:56:48 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
...
royalstaircase ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 20:50:41 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Didja read OP's post? He refers to his friend as "she". I'm trusting OP to be right, although there's a chance he isn't.
I get that you wanna be clever but you aren't in this case.
InsulinDependent ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 20:55:28 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I think you misunderstood what i was going for here, i was simply pointing out how fucking absurd a statement this is to be uttered in any way seriously.
royalstaircase ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 20:57:04 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Oh okay. Just because it's a new concept to you doesn't mean it's absurd. Maybe insult's the wrong word. It can make someone uncomfortable to not be referred to by their preferred pronoun. Like how would you feel if someone came up to you and started referring to you as "she" constantly?
InsulinDependent ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 20:58:45 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
No I agree that is not at all why it's absurd nor did I suggest such a rational.
TheCommieDuck ยท -9 points ยท Posted at 15:53:35 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Because evil SJWs are taking our free speech with their PC-ness, and being a considerate human being (even if it might be a little unneeded in some cases) is bad.
Tsu_Dho_Namh ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:03:46 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Careful, you just assumed their gender.
"I dunno why that's so bad. They just want to be sure that they don't insult you by assuming your gender. You just say "I like he!" and then you keep talking about whatever other stupid shit you were discussing."
Is the pc thing to say.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:18:53 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
genders are here to be assumed, you don't look in everyones pants to decide if they are man or woman, you use their secondary characteristics to decide.
if anyone gets upset by this they deserve to be laughed at and ridiculed
royalstaircase ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 23:03:19 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Or how about we skip the assumptions and just ask?
[deleted] ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 18:36:39 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
royalstaircase ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:46:49 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It's like 3 seconds worth of effort to ask "what's your preferred pronoun?" and reply "he" and then move on, nothing to get so buttfrustrated over.
L33TROYJENK1NS ยท -2 points ยท Posted at 18:18:57 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
DID YOU JUST ASSUME XER GENDER YOU CIS SCUM ?!!1!??
royalstaircase ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:47:13 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
OP is the one who told me that she refers to herself with feminine pronouns.
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 16:03:24 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Sir to you!
n35 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 18:11:55 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
So for those living under a rock, what the hell is a gender pronoun? Or an sjw?
Cheveyo ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 00:18:43 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
How far down this rabbit hole do you want to go?
It isn't something that I can explained easily. For example, I can say that SJWs are people who are perpetually offended. They create new genders every other week and become infuriated when nobody knows what to make of them.
However, that's only scratching the surface. Maybe these will explain things, or at least entertain:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmkXCsqJee0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MGhgGDhnWg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SwYd5cRlROE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmeSGwVBoao
There's so much more, this is only the tip of the iceberg.
CptWhiskers ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 18:35:13 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Pronoun is an English word. Gender pronoun is literally that. A gender pronoun. He/she/it.
n35 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 18:41:59 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Ah I figured since it was said like it was zthst it was something entirely different.
akirashino ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 18:57:48 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
SJW: Social justice warrior. Aka some one who will get offended for you over something that usually has no effect on you or bothers you in any way what so ever.
everclearandmild ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 01:20:30 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Chosen Undead
I can settle for Ashen One in a pinch.
Ryugi ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 22:13:44 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
If there was any question to that, its respectful... But if you feel you've never exhibited any signs it can be a bit awkward. I mean, just be honest as you are comfortable with. They probably are not going to judge you.
teeno731 ยท 32 points ยท Posted at 17:08:59 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
MRW I show kindness to a potentially genderqueer friend and they dislike me for it...
kickass404 ยท 10 points ยท Posted at 17:59:32 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
He might be a potentional brony too, better ask that right away!
Theblankestofflanks ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 23:43:51 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
What are your preferred fandoms?
teeno731 ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 02:36:55 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Well that doesn't make sense.
[deleted] ยท 19 points ยท Posted at 18:05:47 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
[deleted]
SerPownce ยท 27 points ยท Posted at 18:18:09 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Yup. Kindness would be correcting yourself if they inform you that they prefer to be referred to differently. People shouldn't be expected to ask that question. Waste of time
eviscerate-me ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 02:22:36 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I ask that question it's because I want to know what to refer to you as, not because I expect you to ask everyone you meet that.
SerPownce ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 02:44:29 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I'm not saying the person asking expects others to ask that, I'm just saying that most people you ask will answer exactly as you expect they will. By a vast majority, to the point where it's easier to just make the assumption and correct yourself if they offer a preference. I doubt they'll be offended.
teeno731 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 02:42:20 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Yeah I somewhat agree, it's not something I would ask, but I would at least not berate someone for asking me that when others would very much appreciate it.
noeljaboy ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 22:06:27 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Maybe he's actually a dog. Better ask him if he's a dog.
teeno731 ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 02:34:37 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
But people aren't dogs. Some people have different pronoun preferences.
noeljaboy ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 02:46:29 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I beg to differ.
teeno731 ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 03:48:06 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Holy shit, I stand corrected. I think, however, that you're somewhat missing the point; that's a fetish, and you can't compare a fetish to gender dysphoria in the slightest.
[deleted] ยท 32 points ยท Posted at 15:22:19 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
[deleted]
[deleted] ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 15:45:09 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Look her dead in the eye and let her know in the most earnest way.
ApoIIoCreed ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 17:15:54 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I sexually Identify as an Attack Helicopter. Ever since I was a boy I dreamed of soaring over the oilfields dropping hot sticky loads on disgusting foreigners. People say to me that a person being a helicopter is Impossible and Iโm fucking retarded but I donโt care, Iโm beautiful. Iโm having a plastic surgeon install rotary blades, 30 mm cannons and AMG-114 Hellfire missiles on my body. From now on I want you guys to call me โApacheโ and respect my right to kill from above and kill needlessly. If you canโt accept me youโre a heliphobe and need to check your vehicle privilege. Thank you for being so understanding.
Throwaway09234820394 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 18:28:20 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Apache Webserver.
Lunatic0nTheGrass ยท -15 points ยท Posted at 15:55:02 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
That's just a noun.
Armand9x ยท 11 points ยท Posted at 16:19:48 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
trigger
It's a way of life
balter_ ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 02:56:51 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
They were just trying to be polite....
TimBurtonSucks ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 18:14:27 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
The dude will suffice for me
[deleted] ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 21:01:01 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Gen Xer here. ELI5?
Rhino_Starcraft ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 21:35:49 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Some people are special snowflakes. The education system and parents told them what they are doing is fine and now people are trying to claim there are infinite genders. Its something really.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:40:28 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I have three boys. Should I be inquiring about their pronoun?
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 02:15:58 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Don't pet them use tumblr
steelviper77 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 23:42:43 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
No, as long as they all identify as men. If they were to come out as transgender they'd probably tell you what pronouns they wish to be referred to with.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 00:43:14 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Whew. Common Core math is hard enough for me to learn
FruitLiver ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 22:47:38 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
In an effort to be more accepting of people who identify as a gender different from their biological sex, a lot of people have taken to asking someone's pronoun when you first meet someone. This website has a pretty in depth explanation of the whole concept. https://www.genderspectrum.org/quick-links/understanding-gender/
[deleted] ยท -2 points ยท Posted at 02:15:30 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
That website is biased cancer that promotes mutilation as treatment for a mental illness. Lul
DratThePopulation ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 08:59:53 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Have fun in your tiny, dusty little world where things are objectively wrong if they seem odd to you and everyone is an idiot but you.
gerroovy ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 03:20:04 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I'm using this if I ever need to on one of my regular customers at work who has a gender-neutral name. So far, it's not been necessary and maybe never will be, but it does seem a semi-polite, PC way to ask, if I ever need to.
electric-blue ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 18:52:17 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Asking for a good friends pronouns would seem a bit off, but how could making someone more comfortable, and using pronouns they align with be a bad thing?
AJSwifty ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 20:27:55 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
She should have asked for his alignment
princess_blondie ยท 12 points ยท Posted at 18:02:40 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Sorry but you can't complain about people these days being overly sensitive or whatever when you're literally posting gifs and being mad about a question somebody asked so they can make you more comfortable that you could've answered with a single word. It's not a big deal, don't be such a baby
BuggedAndConfused ยท 18 points ยท Posted at 18:54:13 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
TIL politely excusing yourself is being mad. Given how you resorted to name calling and overreacting, is it any wonder why people try to avoid your types?
Arketan ยท 12 points ยท Posted at 19:39:38 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Mad enough to make a post on Reddit about how "ridiculous" their friend was being
EFG ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 20:53:14 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
But that shit is ridiculous. Unless they gave some kind of indication that they identify as something else, it's literally not the friend's business to bring it up. It's callous and can do more harm than good, especially to someone that doesn't have all that much self-confidence. This whole pronoun thing is out of control, and personally, I would never bring that shit up unless directed.
Arketan ยท -2 points ยท Posted at 23:39:20 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I wouldn't call it ridiculous, personally I wouldn't ask someone their pronouns cause it could put someone in an awkward situation where they don't want to misgender themselves but may not be comfortable enough to out themselves to the asker, like I wouldn't ask someone their pronouns and if I wasn't sure I would use "they" until told otherwise but at the end of the day it's just people being over cautious and it's easy to brush off with "aw well these days you never know etc ect" if the person asked was offended or upset.
BuggedAndConfused ยท -3 points ยท Posted at 20:19:39 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Yeah, thats so mad. Scare quotes around a word they never used, too.
Arketan ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:31:22 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
ok
Duskman ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 20:03:36 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
pictured: "politeness"
BuggedAndConfused ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 20:21:01 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
Well, I wasn't the one called a baby, and I never claimed to be the one being polite, and I didn't post any gif, so...
princess_blondie ยท -7 points ยท Posted at 19:00:29 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
If you're upset enough by a completely harmless question to go home and post about how awful people trying to make others comfortable is, avoid me as much as possible please. PLEASE
Alirius ยท 9 points ยท Posted at 19:57:34 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It's not a harmless question. If someone asked me what I identified as I would be offended. I feel like it's pretty clear that I'm a guy.
BuggedAndConfused ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 20:23:53 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You're reading a lot of hostility from nothing, you know. There's no reason to take your frustrations with others out on OP. You're really reaching here.
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 19:45:58 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You literally just proved him right, dumbass turd.
princess_blondie ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 21:42:25 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
just pointing out the hypocrisy pal settle down
eviscerate-me ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 02:24:54 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
lmao right? you could have literally just said "he" or "she" and moved on. everyone is acting like just because some people ask this question, everyone is expected to ask it.
[deleted] ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 21:40:08 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
[removed]
eviscerate-me ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 02:21:21 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Newsflash, buddy: trans people and gender non-conforming people do, in fact, exist outside of schools.
ThickLipsLeroy ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 02:23:34 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Yeah, but no one gives a fuck.
[deleted] ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 17:23:31 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
My pronoun is imafuckingretard. I only have to say it once, you have to say it forever.
Rift_world ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 21:52:59 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't generally the only time you use gender pronouns when you're talking about someone but they're not there
Edit:not in a band
Tancrad ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 22:24:10 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Nah. I think, for instance, if you haven't seen someone in a decade or so, and they are in with this new fad of being a star. They might feel the need to update you. So when you talk to your friends you dont fuck up stars pronouns.
Rift_world ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 22:29:43 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
So would it go like this
Them: I'm a star now
You: wow so do you identify as a white dwarf or a red giant
Them:uh...
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 03:54:20 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Here's my rule: If I know they identify as male or female, I will call them he or she. If I don't know or they don't identify, I'll use singular they, which is acceptable in the english language.
DratThePopulation ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 09:17:45 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I should know better than to read things that make me feel shitty about myself, but it's hard to be reminded how common and accepted it still is to shit all over trans people.
We've made a lot of progress these past couple of years, but it's very apparent we're still not there yet.
Other Trans people, do NOT READ THE COMMENTS. Stop now. It gets so much worse the lower you go.
AngelicBastard ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 17:55:10 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
DID YOU JUST ASSUME MY PRONOUN??
yourunconscious ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 17:37:50 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Why is it mainly girls that bother with this bullshit?
Cheveyo ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 00:01:16 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Because it's girls who more often spend their lives being coddled and treated like special snowflakes.
shiddabrik ยท -3 points ยท Posted at 18:00:17 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Because it makes zero sense, just like girls.
JohnnySkidmarx ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 18:04:07 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I'd say "What the fuck are you talking about? Are you mentally ill or something?"
meppsman ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 16:06:20 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I had a professor that made us meet with someone to find out their name, major, and gender pronouns.
Arketan ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 19:40:41 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
The only issue with this is someone being uncomfortable about being "outed" in a class of people they don't know
sqdnleader ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 16:45:21 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
That's a big flag for the class. Was it like a philosophy/social study/culture class, open forum kind of class?
meppsman ยท 12 points ยท Posted at 17:07:02 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Philosophy! I'm still in the class right now. The teacher is really nice but sometimes she says some things that make me want to get up and walk out.
sqdnleader ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 17:16:57 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Ah gotcha. Yeah that sort of class I can understand the leading with that question. In my experience those classes thrive on discussion and it's important to establish a rapport and open/judgement free feeling environment so everyone will participate.
I understand that too. Had several social culture classes I was required to take and sometimes the professor got a little too vocal about her own opinions rather than stimulating discussion.
Smorlock ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 18:31:04 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Isn't the whole idea of post-secondary school to be confronted with ideas that don't jive with your own though? If you walk out of a class because you don't like your teachers' opinions, you clearly don't care about "stimulating" anything.
meppsman ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 19:10:24 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I never have walked out. But there are some teachers who speak their opinions as facts, or use ridiculous things like a fousey tube video (yes that actually happened in a class of mine) that just make me face palm. I even had one teacher state her opinion, a student replied to it with his own opinion and supported it with examples and the teacher just said no that's not true with no further explanation. That's the kind of thing I don't like that makes me want to walk out.
meppsman ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 17:58:49 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Yeah it's a writing intensive course which is required for me to graduate. I figured I'd take my writing intensive course in something that could be interesting. I like the class as a whole, but some days I just check out and wish I wasn't there.
mindspin311 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 15:40:40 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
What's your pronoun?
CrowKaneII ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 21:14:32 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I'm a fucking man, babe.
No, don't call me "man". I go by "I'm a fucking man, babe." Call me that, or don't call me at all. How dare you disrespect my pronoun.
TheDevilAndMrJones ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:46:26 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
How DARE she try to be kind and respectful! The nerve of some people...
cisxuzuul ยท -7 points ยท Posted at 16:03:10 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
r/thathappened
ZimeaglaZ ยท 19 points ยท Posted at 16:12:58 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
r/nothingeverhappens
fzt ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 16:28:39 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Great song
noreligionplease ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 16:43:33 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
/r/everythinghappens
EleJiggle ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 19:20:18 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
lol this is the definition of /r/thathappened
Real life isn't tumblr. Nobody talks about this gender pronoun or whatever the fuck it's called in real life.
eviscerate-me ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 02:54:45 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
err, yes they do. Multiple people in this thread have talked about being asked what their preferred pronouns are.
ZimeaglaZ ยท -3 points ยท Posted at 19:33:26 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
And somehow there's a dozen people in this very thread defending her actions....and how inclusive she's being...
But, no one ever talks like this in real life, huh?
[deleted] ยท 10 points ยท Posted at 16:44:18 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Ugh just piss off. This story REALLY isn't that unbelievable. If it was a totally unremarkable story then there would be no reason to post about it.
Doomsayer189 ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 18:11:24 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It's less that it's an unbelievable story so much as that it's just blatant pandering.
Guru_Woodman ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 18:14:52 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
pronounsmatter. not
troyareyes ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 18:25:17 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
More League gifs!
brehew ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 18:39:19 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I really miss The League
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:32:56 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
eviscerate-me ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 02:56:23 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Some people ask to be referred to as just their name instead of with any pronouns.
joh2141 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:49:09 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
That's a good reaction to have. That guy in the gif mentioned SOUP GROUP. I mean I love soup but seriously?
asleeplessmalice ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 21:46:41 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
There needs to be more references to The League around here.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:10:47 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Who's the guy standing opposite him? His face looks so familiar, but I can't remember his name for the life of me.
Esco51 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:30:09 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Tom Lennon. Lt. Dangle from Reno 911
conmann97 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:41:46 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
After watching Creep, I can't see this guy in a normal way
dlang17 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 00:45:25 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I give no fucks in the first place, but I tend to refer to people with the neutral. They, their, them. If they get mad from that then fuck'em, couldn't care less.
TheRealGummyBear ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 00:50:39 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Dat frame rate
Tron22 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 02:05:33 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Maybe he's going to go down to the lake where those old Latino woman had a taco truck with the best tacos.
CarpetsMatchDrapes ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 07:35:41 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
For a "good" time, sort comments by controversial
almighty_ruler ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 12:17:48 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
One up them by saying that assuming you have a gender is a micro aggression.
GreyscaleCheese ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 15:57:52 on October 11, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Ey, It's Dangle from Reno!
Aro769 ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 17:00:02 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Did you just assume your old friend's gender?
mjigs ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:10:07 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I dont care what a hell they want to be refered as, theres only female, male and genderless, the rest are just pure bs invented by some snowflakes that want attention. Also what kind of conversation starter is that? And who uses pronouns while talking to someone, unless you're talking about them to another person, pronouns arent in the convo.
Amnsia ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 22:28:48 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Genderless?
mjigs ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 22:44:46 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You know, that doesnt identifies with female or male.
Amnsia ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 22:54:37 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
What a problem to have. If they're in a public place and they need the toilet, which one do they go in?
mjigs ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 21:01:04 on October 25, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Well, there's always the handicap option, there are everywhere.
Amnsia ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 21:49:15 on October 25, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Woahhhhh you can't do that, just using a those toilets without having a handicap is just wrong. More wrong than someone using the toilets they feel uncomfortable in ffs.
ndhernandez ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 21:20:53 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Same reaction I have when an old friend posts that his kids are gender neutral
MrDrLemon ยท -17 points ยท Posted at 16:19:55 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Huh, somebody was kind enough to ask something they feel is important to ask? Weird. God forbid, right? Why act like an adult and return the kindness by simply answering the question when you could be an edgelord and fedora tip your way from the scene.
Victorhcj ยท 9 points ยท Posted at 17:59:30 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It's kooky as hell. You haven't met someone in years and you start talking about gender pronouns like it's a normal conversation starter
beelzeflub ยท -16 points ยท Posted at 17:12:49 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
ITT: people unwilling to accept the evolving concepts of gender in our modern society. :\
Kurtonio ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:12:50 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Are people really like this? I mean I've heard jokes in the media and online but I always assume it was a exaggeration of real life. Along the same lines as someone slipping on a banana peel.
ChadHimslef ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 19:37:11 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
As someone who identifies as banana peel, I find this offensive
fortybattletoad ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:49:56 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Made the right move not entertaining that.
cdxxprincess ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:58:37 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Yep. Pretty fuckin much. Bye, Felicia.
[deleted] ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 03:04:40 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Preferred gender pronouns? Are we not addressing people by their names anymore?
RationalMayhem ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 04:07:14 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I respond exclusively to 'His Imperial Highness'
ProfessorPugly ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 06:29:41 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
My needed dose of sanity for today. It's amazing the regressives never entertain the thought that they might be hurting the cause they're trying to serve by being over sensitive and pedantic.
joketube ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 07:10:50 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Fucking special snowflakes. "I'm not a boy" well your chromosomes say otherwise kid!
vonnegutcheck ยท -61 points ยท Posted at 15:06:34 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
How dare she, are you ok? She asked you how you liked to be referred to? God, the nerve.
scamlikenewton ยท 45 points ยท Posted at 15:26:50 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I don't think he was offended, just really weirded out. I would be if someone asked me that. That's not a normal, socially established thing to do. I definitely won't be hanging out with someone that would ask me how I like to be referred to. Am I a bad person for that? I should probably just listen to what you have to say and do what you think others should do instead.
MichaelSilverV ยท -7 points ยท Posted at 15:38:23 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I wouldn't say it necessarily makes you a bad person, but it's an extremely shallow reason to stop hanging out with someone. Sure, it's still a pretty weird question in your "average" social situation, but it's a perfectly legitimate question to ask for a growing number of people. Just people that question was asked is not an indicator that you otherwise won't get along.
scamlikenewton ยท 26 points ยท Posted at 15:41:48 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I feel like that would actually be a big indicator. A statement like that reflects a lot about a person and their own personal viewpoints, whether they want to admit it or not. I get the point you're trying to make, but I disagree entirely.
MichaelSilverV ยท -12 points ยท Posted at 15:50:21 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I think it reveals a very liberally-minded person who is sensitive to the rights and feelings of transgendered people. If that means you automatically can't hang out, that's unfortunate
ButtsexEurope ยท 17 points ยท Posted at 16:03:42 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It means gender is something on their mind all the time. If that's the first thing you ask someone, I don't wanna hang out with you.
MichaelSilverV ยท -4 points ยท Posted at 16:11:17 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I don't believe anyone mentioned that this was the first someone said
indrion ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 19:48:54 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Maybe not but if they're the type of person to ask they're also probably gonna get retarded levels of offended by anything. Such as my use of retarded.
MichaelSilverV ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:07:48 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Well if we all just treat each other based on stereotyping then that would just be peachy.
trash_b0y ยท -2 points ยท Posted at 21:12:33 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Do you think a transgender person having gender on their mind all the time might have to do with knowing people are gonna react like you are when they bring up their gender, so that they have to choose between putting up with everyone calling them the wrong thing or having an awkward conversation where people decide they suck for beinging it up?
ButtsexEurope ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 00:02:03 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
This is a girl he used to know. She's cis. So no, she's not trans.
scamlikenewton ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 18:55:48 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
A person can be very liberally-minded without feeling the need to preface a conversation with that. If they say that to start every conversation with anyone who they are unsure of their preference, then gender, gender terms, and very probably other "new wave" societal issues are going to come first and foremost in both that individual's head and in the following conversation.
If someone needs to know how I identify first in order to have a conversation, then they're clearly not primarily worried about the content of the conversation. It seems to me to be more of a way to determine if people are either progressive enough for that person, or as an advertisement to show how progressive they are. I could never imagine a way in which my gender identity alters the quality or content of my conversations with anyone, and I expect the same from my peers.
In addition to this, for those that do identify differently than the traditional roles, please don't get huffy-puffy or snobby or dejected if people do mistakenly call you the wrong pronoun. Just casually explain to them what you go by; there's no need to get up in arms because someone accidentally called you by, what you consider to be, the wrong pronoun. If whoever made the mistake is worth talking to, they'll understand and continue as if it never happened. If they do make a fuss over it, fuck em, they're assholes anyways.
MichaelSilverV ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:02:15 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I'm confused because I'm defending neither starting the conversation with this question, nor justifying immediately getting huffy if you're called the wrong thing. What I do have a problem is being allergic to the question being asked at all.
scamlikenewton ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:09:46 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Where did I say it shouldn't be asked at all? There's a time and place for every question. There are entire organizations devoted to asking that exact question, as there well should be. But asking in casual conversation just means your mind is elsewhere.
MichaelSilverV ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:19:28 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
In your original comment you only mentioned being asked that question, not that you would be asked that question to begin a conversation. You say the question has no place in casual conversation, I disagree.
scamlikenewton ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:29:34 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I realize you disagree: every point you've made so far have been in opposition to mine. I get the idea of being tolerant to that kind of question, but it would also be silly to assume that everyone will expect that kind of question, and it would also be silly to assume that most people will continue their conversations (current or in the future) with you after asking that question.
MichaelSilverV ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 20:03:14 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I mean, don't get me wrong, I see where you're coming from. I would most likely be taken aback if I was asked that question. However, I would hope it would not be enough for me to treat that individual as casually as if they asked me what town I grew up in. So perhaps "extremely" shallow was too harsh a phrase, but I do believe a person shouldn't be judged for asking.
Fyzzle ยท 14 points ยท Posted at 15:46:43 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It's the tip of the iceberg, I'm not going to tiptoe around a conversation waiting for the landmine of being offended.
fitzydog ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 16:52:10 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
If someone is so easily offended that you have to beat around a fucking bush, maybe they need to grow some thicker skin.
ksaid1 ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 15:51:10 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Maybe I'm weird, but I've never felt the need to tiptoe around a conversation. Like what issues are you gonna talk about with an old friend that would offend them?
MichaelSilverV ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 15:52:01 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Those are assumptions based on stereotypes. Pretty crappy thing to do to someone
ZimeaglaZ ยท 9 points ยท Posted at 16:21:08 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Assumptions?
Like assuming someone has preferred pronouns?
Wouldn't want to do that.
MichaelSilverV ยท -5 points ยท Posted at 16:23:30 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Oh don't even try to equate the two. Everyone has a preference, even if that preference is "I don't really care either way."
ZimeaglaZ ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 16:25:52 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Sounds like you're making assumptions.
MichaelSilverV ยท -2 points ยท Posted at 16:28:30 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
By all means then, if I'm wrong, tell me which preference I happened to miss.
ZimeaglaZ ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 16:31:48 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Wouldn't want to do that and make assumptions about which one happened to miss.
MichaelSilverV ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 16:43:10 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I do apologize, I had assumed I was talking to a human being and not a sock puppet.
ZimeaglaZ ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 16:44:38 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Did you just assume I'm a sock puppet??
triggered
Fyzzle ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 16:04:50 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I honestly don't have the time or energy to find out. First impressions are important.
MichaelSilverV ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 16:12:10 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
If you base your first impression on a stereotype, that's on you, not them
Fyzzle ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 17:22:37 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I'm not sure you're using stereotype right, I'm judging people based on actions. I don't have the time to get to know even a small fraction of the people I meet to the degree you think is appropriate.
If we have to negotiate terms on how to address each other you'd better be royalty, or we're done before we start.
vonnegutcheck ยท -6 points ยท Posted at 15:49:15 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I'm sure they're all broken up about it.
scamlikenewton ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 19:02:22 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I doubt they would be, and nor would I, so everything's fine right? So I don't understand the point you're trying to make with this comment, other than trying to be super snarky, and it really wasn't even that good of a snarky comment in the first place.
ccfccc ยท -4 points ยท Posted at 16:17:12 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
If an old friend asked you that out of the blue, it's obvious they are transitioning and are looking for a way to discuss that. It's a made-up scenario anyways.
ZimeaglaZ ยท 9 points ยท Posted at 15:53:25 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
That's like asking if someone has leprosy before I shake their hand.
It's only like .00001% of the population, but you can never be too safe.
vonnegutcheck ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 15:57:25 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Trans people are still legally discriminated against in a lot of states. They attempt suicide ten times as often as the general population. They're far more likely to be removed from their families, and they have a more difficult time finding jobs.
If this girl makes a small gesture of inclusiveness part of my everyday life, at literally no cost to her, well I just don't find that to be a terrible thing.
ZimeaglaZ ยท 15 points ยท Posted at 16:05:33 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Literally none of that still justifies asking everyone what their preferred pronouns are.
I'm not against using them, I'm all for people feeling happy about themselves (Disregarding dragonkin and all of that bullshit)
But, acting like it's a normal thing is silly.
I'm not going to ask someone if they have leprosy and I'm not going to ask them their preferred pronouns.
Real Life doesn't reflect the safe space at colleges, and if you can't handle that, then tough titty.
vonnegutcheck ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 16:08:27 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It sounds like OP is the one who couldn't handle it.
Also who said you have to ask anybody? I'm just saying it's silly to use "she asked my pronouns" as a litmus test for friendship. Do whatever you like, pal.
ZimeaglaZ ยท 14 points ยท Posted at 16:10:09 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Asking someone their preferred pronouns gives a great insight into their mindset, and that's the mindset of an easily offended person.
I have no time for someone that's perpetually offended and blaming all of their problems on the evil cis-patriarchy.
vonnegutcheck ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 16:13:04 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Welcome to Reddit, where deliberate inclusiveness is offensive and deliberate offensiveness is inclusive.
ZimeaglaZ ยท 13 points ยท Posted at 16:18:46 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Why don't you post this to r/srs where you can normalize weird behavior with the rest of the screeching harpies.
Seriously. Accommodating a fraction of 1% of the population while alienating the other 99.9% is just absurd.
Why don't you make sure the environment is ideal for people with tuberculosis, you gotta make sure everyone feels comfortable.
People might have synesthasia, better not have any music or bright colors at your party!
Vegans might be in the room, better make sure your fridge has no animal products in it!
Someone that may come to your house someday might have an allergy! No peanuts, eggs or dairy is in your house, right? Ever, right?
Better not have any animals, someone could be allergic or afraid of your dog. Better change your lifestyle and accommodate someone that may or may not come over at some point.
Got to make sure to get all of that sweet, sweet inclusiveness.
vonnegutcheck ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 16:23:59 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
That's not how synesthesia works
That's not how veganism works
Not how allergies work, btw.
A better analogy would be letting your guests know, "hey, btw the thai lettuce wraps have peanuts."
Most of the time, it's meaningless. For those that it helps, it means a lot, and for those that it doesn't, it changes nothing.
First time I've ever been called a screeching harpy though, so I can put that in my diary.
ZimeaglaZ ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 16:27:59 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
And what of the pets? Funny how you neglected to answer that but eagerly answered the rest.
And why are the cafeterias and schools becoming peanut free zones if that's not how allergies work?
vonnegutcheck ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 16:31:17 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Let guests know you have a dog before they come over. It is - again - very easy and costs you nothing.
I do respect your commitment to railing against mild social progress.
ZimeaglaZ ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 16:42:24 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Social progress?
Yes, having to tip toe around everyone for fear of accidently offending someone is suuuch progress.
Alirius ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 20:11:53 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
That is how peanut allergies work. Sometimes the smell of peanuts is enough to make someone need to go to a hospital.
Please read up about this first.
ButtsexEurope ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 16:04:58 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
A small gesture that alienates most other people.
vonnegutcheck ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 16:06:56 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Why?
fitzydog ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 16:54:59 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Because its literally the same reason you don't discuss politics or religion with people. It's rude.
If you overstep a line, a small correction from the other person is sufficient, and life goes on.
WoWhAolic ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 16:49:18 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Because trans people are an exclusive group, not an inclusive group. They tend to criticize others who don't believe as they do. They tend to paint those who don't believe trans-genderism is as wide-spread as they claim it to be as bigots on par with racists.
theorganicpotatoes ยท -4 points ยท Posted at 16:14:25 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
How does that alienate you?
ButtsexEurope ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 17:19:59 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You assuming I'm transgender.
theorganicpotatoes ยท -2 points ยท Posted at 17:46:38 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I don't think it assumes you are transgender or aren't transgender. I guess I just see it as a pretty innocent way for the person asking to mention they are transgender and would prefer certain pronouns. You may see it differently.
Cacame ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 17:40:44 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Trans people are more like 1%.
ZimeaglaZ ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 17:44:40 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I think it's actually closer to .3-.5%, but I was just exaggerating anyways.
shwarma_heaven ยท 10 points ยท Posted at 15:47:49 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
And I guess if they walked up and asked "what sub-category of Homosapien are you?"..... that would be normal adult conversation starter too?
CrowKaneII ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 21:09:10 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I'd fucking walk away from them, too. That's a terrible analogy.
The point is, that's not a normal way to begin a conversation. If you are unwilling to adapt to common social situations, and act like a fucking weirdo; you're going to be treated as such.
TerryNL ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 18:38:56 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
Tbh that sounds like something that'd end up in /r/iamverysmart
Edit: correct subreddit.
shwarma_heaven ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 18:45:21 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Exactly..... it makes as much sense as assuming that someone needs special sexual pronouns to be described by.
eviscerate-me ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 03:02:18 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
TIL 'he' and 'she' are special sexual pronouns
shwarma_heaven ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 03:23:23 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
TIL that it needed to be explained that those aren't special pronouns...
eviscerate-me ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 21:04:45 on October 16, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I... don't understand? My comment implies that I don't understand why those /would/ be considered special pronouns.
vonnegutcheck ยท -8 points ยท Posted at 15:53:45 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
This was an old friend, during catching up. But how dare she make even the smallest gesture towards inclusiveness, am I right?
shwarma_heaven ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 16:33:53 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
That is a pretty big assumption to make, that a person if being excluded to have to make a preemptive attempt at inclusion.... "Hey Jill, you probably don't fit into this crowd, so what can I do to make you feel more included?"
That could make someone feel excluded.
intrepidone66 ยท 16 points ยท Posted at 15:29:05 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Well she can ask...but she'll die a lonely unicorn.
Rightfully so.
MichaelSilverV ยท -10 points ยท Posted at 15:40:44 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Let's see, who deserves to die a lonely unicorn - the person who cares deeply about the gender identity of others, or the person who thinks that that person deserves to die a lonely unicorn?
intrepidone66 ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 19:21:37 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Hands down this one.
There are only two genders, male and female...unless you factor in hermaphrodites.
Everything else is self-delusion and should be treated as such.
End of story.
MichaelSilverV ยท -6 points ยท Posted at 19:25:29 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Yeah fuck those caring assholes, how dare they try to respect our identity. The nerve of some people
ButtsexEurope ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 16:02:53 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
She's basically implying he looks like a girl and is transitioning mtf, which is insulting to a cis guy.
She's a crazy tumblrina who thinks everyone is either genderqueer or trans. Anyone who starts a conversation like this is really awkward and spends way too much time on tumblr.
vonnegutcheck ยท -2 points ยท Posted at 16:06:42 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
k
eviscerate-me ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 03:44:07 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I don't think the friend was implying that OP looks like a girl. There's a good chance they ask most people this question, whether they look androgynous or not.
ButtsexEurope ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 03:54:54 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I addressed that with number 2
iGotDatDainbramage ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 15:52:32 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I don't want rules to a light discussion I'm having with an old friend. If it takes that much of a commitment I'll go find someone I can relax and be myself around
iwonderhowlonguserna ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 18:28:48 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I hate how all the reactiongifs posts have one wannabe funny title here and another one on imgur when opening the link.
tonybaby ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 00:28:10 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Even if you don't actually title your imgur upload, they'll still scrape a title from reddit if it's been posted or crossposted by OP or anyone, I have some I've never titled and only used as reactions in threads that have some weird titles
Nevermind04 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 21:16:03 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I would just assume they're joking and riff a little. It would probably be very awkward explaining to them why we can't be friends.
KeriEatsSouls ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 06:24:12 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
That sounds like something a robot would ask. Is your friend a robot?
UnhipGlint ยท -4 points ยท Posted at 16:46:40 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I think you meant to post this in r/thatHappened.
dltn_put ยท -2 points ยท Posted at 19:35:35 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
What's so wrong with this?
TheBallsackIsBack ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 19:39:16 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Lol seriously?
dltn_put ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 19:54:22 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
yeah? I don't get what the big deal is?
TheBallsackIsBack ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 20:04:36 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It's a good indication that someone is a fuckin weirdo.
There are two genders an it is easy to see which one someone is. If someone asked me what my preferred gender term was I'd react the same way
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 02:19:12 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Seriously by all means people embrace this shit, it just makes it easier for normal people to see that you're fucked in the head lol
Carp8DM ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 20:24:31 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
We're all weirdos... If someone is your friend, you accept the weirdness...
You'd seriously just be a dick to a buddy that you grew up with because they said something that was against your political views?
dltn_put ยท -4 points ยท Posted at 20:14:51 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I believe non-binary is bullshit too but it makes some people feel good about themselves so I don't really mind using non-binary pronouns
TheBallsackIsBack ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 20:18:14 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You're being an enabler
dltn_put ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:19:11 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I dont get what the harm in it is
TheBallsackIsBack ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 01:25:31 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Ohhhhhhh boy you have no fucking clue.
dltn_put ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 01:34:35 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Alright, then explain
[deleted] ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 02:20:28 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
People cut their dicks off and regret it
TheBallsackIsBack ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 01:52:05 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Aint got time for this nor do I care enough.
just go look at tumblr to see what spawns when no matter what batshit ideas people come up with people keep enabling their lunacy
dltn_put ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 03:43:29 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
So you're basically admitting your argument is invalid?
TheBallsackIsBack ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 04:24:09 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
How ever the fuck people like you know how to put on shoes in the morning astounds me. The logical fallacies you use blow my god damn mind.
I literally give you an example to examine and you come back with "Oh durr, I gess u dnt have a pint tu maek"
Get bent fucking retard lol
dltn_put ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 04:28:45 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You didnt even explain yourself though. You just said "look at tumblr". Do you realize how vague that is?
Carp8DM ยท -4 points ยท Posted at 20:25:41 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You're being a dick to your friend.
The situation is not about some random douche you ran into at a party.
The scenario is that it's an old friend you know. So you're just gonna be a dick to your old friend because he has a thought process that is different than yours?
TheBallsackIsBack ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 01:24:50 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
"Different" is the new excuse for being a fucking dumbass I guess.
If I see an old friend using heroin, I wouldn't be too keen on supporting it just because it's "different"
Fucking Marxist retards.
Carp8DM ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 10:58:31 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
triggered.
[deleted] ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 23:24:34 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Pretty much nothing. People are just trying to be edgy.
Soulbrandt-Regis ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 22:29:37 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I stand by the I call you what you look like clause.
Nothing will change that. Unless you are legally something other than what you are, you are not getting a different pronoun from me. You are he or she. That is it. End of discussion.
If you make reference to the nonsense that spouts on a 1% populated blog, you will be ignored and remain either a he or she until you are legally and have confirmed paperwork to have your chosen gender changed. Otherwise, you have a dick: he; you have a cunt: she.
That is it, and it has worked great because people who argue against it are absolutely not worth your time.
eviscerate-me ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 02:59:54 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
So uh, what do you do if someone looks like a girl but has a dick then? Since you call them what they look like, but dick = he and cunt = she.
Soulbrandt-Regis ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 05:40:27 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Effeminate men exist, why would that change at all? I know you're attempting a broad generalization and that is fine, you have no inclination to agree with me; but using a poor example is unacceptable.
eviscerate-me ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 21:03:14 on October 16, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It's not a poor example, I'm just pointing out your flawed logic. What I'm asking is this: Since I look like a dude but I have a cunt, what would you call me?
DeadlyPear ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 23:35:20 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
How can you be this disrespectful? Honestly, its kind of baffling whenever people say shit like this.
Are you saying the entire trans community is not worth anyone's time?
Soulbrandt-Regis ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 00:26:42 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I'm saying most people who think they are trans are going through a phase. And that until they have the paperwork to prove they're not just bullshitting and have taken steps toward "trans"formation, heh, then there is nothing to discuss nor argue.
After all, it is disrespectful.
DeadlyPear ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 01:08:06 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Then you're woefully misinformed.
I'm not sure what exactly you mean by this.
[deleted] ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 02:08:26 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
A mental illness should be recognized for what it is
DeadlyPear ยท -3 points ยท Posted at 02:17:37 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Its not a metal illness though.
[deleted] ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 02:22:18 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It obviously is if you're born with a dick and think you're a woman you're a fucking moron if you don't think that qualifies as a mental illness.
DeadlyPear ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 02:29:10 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It doesn't qualify as a mental illness though, and medical experts agree that it isn't.
Choreboy ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 04:30:16 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It's thought to be a variant body dismorphic disorder.
Thameus ยท -5 points ยท Posted at 16:44:33 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Tumblrina
beelzeflub ยท -2 points ยท Posted at 17:16:26 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Tumblr didn't "invent" the concept of gender pronouns. They twisted it into a bad light with name-calling and general tumblr cattiness, but gender pronouns are a legitimate thing and should be respected.
Leporad ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 18:42:56 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Is this type of issue this a universally female thing?
Emilytea14 ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 22:02:38 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Good riddance
2brooms ยท -16 points ยท Posted at 17:14:20 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Jesus, people. Asking somebodies pronouns is fucking fine. Quit being babies.
(My pronouns are he/him/his)
sephrinx ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 21:19:20 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Uhmm... I don't even want to get into this.
braelynjane ยท -25 points ยท Posted at 16:20:50 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I'm having a very hard time understanding why this is something to get upset about? My god, since when is trying to be considerate anger inducing?
Geezus, the only good thing about this thread is the fact that I now know I can piss off so many people by asking them their preferred gender. I may have to start asking this more often.
At my work I'm required to enter people's genders and I always ask it no matter what. It's almost 2016 and just because you resemble a female doesn't necessarily mean you are one. Sometimes I get funny looks from people but that's about it.
AaronRodgersIsNotGay ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 18:45:28 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
C U R R E N T Y E A R
[deleted] ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 17:01:45 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
[deleted]
braelynjane ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 19:46:41 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Sometimes speaking your opinion means you're going to get shat on. It's okay, it's just the Internet after all :)
beelzeflub ยท -10 points ยท Posted at 17:11:54 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Agreed! One hundred per cent.
Bunch of transphobia in this thread. No, the concept of gender pronouns was not invented by so-called "tumblrinas" (although the perception of it has been twisted badly by the tumblr community), and gender is not the same as biological sex.
Jesus Christ crucified, people. Get over yourselves!
/rant
kickass404 ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 17:47:43 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
But 'he' and 'she' is! It is right there in the fucking dictionary. He is male, she is a female. Male is 'A male (โ) organism is the physiological sex that produces sperm.' and female is 'Female (โ) is the sex of an organism, or a part of an organism, that produces non-mobile ova (egg cells).'
Jesus Christ crucified, people. Get over yourselves!
braelynjane ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 19:45:23 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
But what if you cannot tell which gender somebody is? Isn't it nicer to ask instead of assume?
That's just my logic. I would rather ask a simple question!
Sykotik ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:06:13 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Then you just use a neutral pronoun. The same way people have been doing it for fucking millennia without issue.
braelynjane ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 01:24:03 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Why is it so wrong to ask though? I just don't understand.
Then again I'm not one to get upset over spilt milk, I would never in a million years get upset about something so innocent as a question.
I'll just keep doing my thing and you can keep being offended. Cheers!
beelzeflub ยท -3 points ยท Posted at 17:52:54 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Wikipedia time!
So while gender in various cultures and societies may have reference to biological sex, they are not entirely synonymous.
shiddabrik ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 18:08:56 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Go back to biology class. Clearly you failed it.
beelzeflub ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 18:18:08 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
Sure thing.
More:
Free Oxford Journal published study about gender dysphoria and the brain: Here.
EVEN MORE:
Citation: Galdas, P. M.; Johnson, J. L.; Percy, M. E.; Ratner, P. A. (2010). "Help seeking for cardiac symptoms: Beyond the masculineโfeminine binary". Social Science & Medicine. 71: 18โ24. doi:10.1016/j.socscimed.2010.03.006. PMID 20398989
http://apps.who.int/gender/whatisgender/en/
http://www.fda.gov/medicaldevices/deviceregulationandguidance/guidancedocuments/ucm283453.htm
Carp8DM ยท -3 points ยท Posted at 20:20:38 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I don't care either way...
But if it's a friend of yours, why wouldn't you want to discuss it and hang out to see what he/she/ has been up to?
I have quite a few old friends I'd love to run into over the past 20 years. If they started the discussion with this, I wouldn't bail out.
Are you that much of a dick wad?
MrKaru ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:14:02 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Did you just assume Xer gender?!
[deleted] ยท -12 points ยท Posted at 17:33:46 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
[deleted]
FappinBob ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 17:52:55 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
No fuck her for being a Tumblr cultist
Alirius ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:14:52 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It does me harm if she can't notice I'm a guy.
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 21:11:25 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Why?
Alirius ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 23:07:39 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Because I look like a guy and act like a guy.
If it quacks like a duck and straddles like a duck, it's a fucking duck.
Sykotik ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 22:07:47 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Why does he need to explain his taking offense to you? Can't you just accept that it is offensive to some people? Why can't you be more tolerant of his personal feelings on the subject?
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 04:24:50 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
People are entirely welcome to their personal feelings, but unless you can justify them, you probably shouldn't let them colour the way you treat others. For instance, any kind of illegal drug use makes me uncomfortable, but on a rational level I can't justify that discomfort so I shut up about it when I'm around drug users.
Alirius ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 23:06:44 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Nice, using their own weapons against them.
Sykotik ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:08:49 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It's so fucking transparent and obviously retarded. I can't believe anyone gets caught up in it in the first place.
Hawful ยท -7 points ยท Posted at 17:37:12 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I'm not sure I understand the issue here? Are you upset that she didn't assume your gender? That's even stupider than people being upset about being incorrectly labeled.
Just tell her "male" and get over it. It really isn't a big deal that she wants to be considerate of other people's identities.
LukeCageCoffeeShop ยท -7 points ยท Posted at 19:24:51 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
As a trans person, that's really nice and flattering. You're just being an ass by assuming everyone is cis when you're friend is going out of her way to be respectful.
bamfbanki ยท -8 points ยท Posted at 20:14:59 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I feel kinda shitty about this post?
I'm transgender. Asking your pronouns is the OPPOSITE of an offensive or awkward thing, it's trying to respect you and NOT upset you.
Like why the fuck is it a bad thing?
freshestpr1nce ยท 10 points ยท Posted at 20:46:06 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Because it's fucking stupid, there are only two genders.
bamfbanki ยท -4 points ยท Posted at 21:14:11 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Lol
Want to talk about Biological or Phychological first? Because you're scientifically incorrect on both fronts.
freshestpr1nce ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 21:24:57 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I'm scientifically wrong? You're either XX or XY, not ZW or fucking VJ. You either carry sperm or carry eggs, you can't change that and it's retarded to think other wise.
bamfbanki ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 21:32:16 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Lol, XXY is definitely a thing, if rare. That's where you're wrong and the entire argument of only 2 is bullshit.
[deleted] ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 21:46:13 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
bamfbanki ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 21:58:35 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
That's the biological aspect.
We can talk about how Gender Dysphoria has been in the psych textbooks for years, how it's not even considered a negative diagnosis anymore, and how that most academics are looking at gender as an entirely separate thing from biological sex at this point. However, I have a feeling you'd rather masturbate over this idea of "You not being how I see reality makes me think you're impure" concept rather than actually grow as a human being.
freshestpr1nce ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 21:35:10 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
They're still males dumbass, they have the Y chromosome. They're just sterile.
bamfbanki ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 21:37:05 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Multiple cases have shown fully developed sex organs at birth, and are often forcibly treated as one gender or another at birth, which is bullshit in itself.
Sentient_Atom ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 21:16:58 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Enlighten us.
Peer reviewed biology studies only please.
bamfbanki ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 21:33:12 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
XX, XY are typical Natal assignments- but it is definitely a known piece in the scientific world that there are people born as XXY or other combinations due to genetic mutation, and that's where the biological argument falls short.
hailunix ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 23:01:41 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Doesn't X and Y determine sex with other factors possibly determining gender? You'd think that if the gender dysphoria was chromosomal it'd have more recognition than it does. What about gender non conforming, is that biological somehow?
Honestly curious fyi not arguing anything.
bamfbanki ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 00:48:58 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
We honestly don't know why gender dysphoria shows up. We do know that people who identify as binary genders have closer neurology to their identified gender rather than their natal gender.
BadDrugsRBad ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 20:20:54 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Someone explain why one would react this way?
Carp8DM ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 20:27:54 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It's inexplicable.
+1 for letting me use "inexplicable", it's a first for me.
Carp8DM ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 20:22:29 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Just posted pretty much the same thing, and then scrolled down to read your post.
I'm totally with you. If the person is your old friend, and we are all in this thing called life, why not try to figure out your friend?
Just seems like a dick move, to me.
bamfbanki ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 21:13:50 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Thank you!
[deleted] ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 02:17:26 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It's a fucking bizarre think that shouldn't happen sorry you're broken
QCA_Tommy ยท -3 points ยท Posted at 20:10:25 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
/r/thathappened
pimpsandpopes ยท -5 points ยท Posted at 17:22:03 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Sounds annoying,
But that reaction would be kinda extreme for it.
FightClubLeader ยท -2 points ยท Posted at 23:36:11 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I think the proper response would've been "Attack helicopter, attack helicopters."
[deleted] ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 00:58:43 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
ThrwAwyByTheDozen ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 03:58:53 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Fuck on off back to those psychos in SRS now, kthxbye.
Gingerdyke ยท -11 points ยท Posted at 19:09:19 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
So your friend cares about you enough to want to be careful not to hurt you. Good thing you got out of that situation, surely something as horrible as asking a simple question will only lead to trouble.
[deleted] ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 18:48:57 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
He, she, it.
These are the only 3 you need until given a specific pronoun by a person. Just like you call someone "hey you" until they tell you their name.
Ghostcat09 ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 19:10:48 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
haha
Geralt-of_Rivia ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 21:02:45 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I'd laugh and walk away.
10inchFinn ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 01:06:14 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Vacuum. I sexually identify with a vacuum.
Medium_Rare_Cancer ยท -8 points ยท Posted at 21:09:02 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
http://i.imgur.com/HkO6UCv.gifv
THIS POST
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 21:28:44 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
[deleted]
Medium_Rare_Cancer ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:02:06 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
how do you ignore medical proof and still believe trans gendered people are retards?
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 02:10:19 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Medical proof it's a mental illness? Lol
Medium_Rare_Cancer ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 02:13:34 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
read the government medical links i sent to the other cunts
[deleted] ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 02:22:55 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
They just prove it's a mental issue lol
Medium_Rare_Cancer ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 09:37:37 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Not true, if you can't read just watch the university lecture cause this may be your only chance to ever see what university would have been like
[deleted] ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 01:41:58 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
[deleted]
Medium_Rare_Cancer ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 02:03:15 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Enjoy you piece of human cancer
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2754583/ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7477289 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21618223 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10843193 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11826131 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15724806 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16140461 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16870186 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17765230 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18056697 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18980961 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18962445 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19341803 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20562024 http://cercor.oxfordjournals.org/content/18/8/1900.abstract http://www.eje-online.org/content/155/suppl_1/S107 http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v378/n6552/abs/378068a0.html http://press.endocrine.org/doi/full/10.1210/jcem.85.5.6564
A short video explanation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOY3QH_jOtE#t=1h23m52s
Scientific consensus http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22051008 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22105293 http://www.psychiatry.org/File%20Library/Advocacy%20and%20Newsroom/Position%20Statements/ps2012_TransgenderCare.pdf http://www.gires.org.uk/assets/Medpro-Assets/AMA122.pdf http://www.wpath.org/site_page.cfm?pk_association_webpage_menu=1352&pk_association_webpage=3947 http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/about-ama/our-people/member-groups-sections/glbt-advisory-committee/glbt-resources/lgbt-health-resources.page http://www.apa.org/about/policy/transgender.aspx
dingus_supreme ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 21:15:22 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Was that proof enough for you?
kanad3 ยท -5 points ยท Posted at 19:05:25 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Good riddance on her side
Ballr777 ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 17:54:32 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Damn, I miss The League.
Tadeo115 ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 19:29:58 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I still don't fucking understand. What they mean they tell me theirs. Ha
motivationx ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 20:01:02 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Give them the ol friend off
Medium_Rare_Cancer ยท -8 points ยท Posted at 21:08:39 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Your friends reaction would be worse now that she knows youre a bigoted asshole
[deleted] ยท 11 points ยท Posted at 21:27:42 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
[deleted]
Medium_Rare_Cancer ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 23:02:45 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
not a term of disagreement but being a good person and understanding medical research
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 01:48:13 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
[deleted]
Medium_Rare_Cancer ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 02:03:05 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Enjoy you piece of human cancer
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2754583/ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7477289 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21618223 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10843193 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11826131 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15724806 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16140461 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16870186 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17765230 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18056697 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18980961 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18962445 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19341803 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20562024 http://cercor.oxfordjournals.org/content/18/8/1900.abstract http://www.eje-online.org/content/155/suppl_1/S107 http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v378/n6552/abs/378068a0.html http://press.endocrine.org/doi/full/10.1210/jcem.85.5.6564
A short video explanation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOY3QH_jOtE#t=1h23m52s
Scientific consensus http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22051008 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22105293 http://www.psychiatry.org/File%20Library/Advocacy%20and%20Newsroom/Position%20Statements/ps2012_TransgenderCare.pdf http://www.gires.org.uk/assets/Medpro-Assets/AMA122.pdf http://www.wpath.org/site_page.cfm?pk_association_webpage_menu=1352&pk_association_webpage=3947 http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/about-ama/our-people/member-groups-sections/glbt-advisory-committee/glbt-resources/lgbt-health-resources.page http://www.apa.org/about/policy/transgender.aspx
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 02:14:31 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Still a mental illness by definition lul. Get t-t-triggereeddddd
dingus_supreme ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 21:16:38 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I mean, there are 15 links right there proving otherwise. But whatever.
Medium_Rare_Cancer ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 09:35:13 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Same way we defined homosexuality as a mental illness before listening to reason? You are a bad person but I hope you can change
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 02:13:18 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
The reason it oppressed is because you're a dumb cunt and no one like you not because of your gender :}
ThrwAwyByTheDozen ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 04:01:21 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Oh go cry to some pathetic, special snowflake , imbeciles who actually give a fuck about these bullshit "genders."
WhiteyMcKnight ยท -13 points ยท Posted at 16:17:07 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
r/gendercritical
zowzow ยท -13 points ยท Posted at 16:52:12 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
The only time I care about other people and their genders is when a situation like this happens... trust me it happens more than you'd think.
Lets just say I'm buying something from the grocery store and have a casual conversation with an undisclosed individual.
Me: "I wonder if I should buy the family sized cereal or the normal size."
Them: "Buy the family size, its a dollar more for twice as much."
Me: "Thanks man, I think I'll do that."
Them: "Did you just assume my gender."
Me: "Well, no, not really. It was a general term involved in my thanking of you for your insight on which product to purchase."
Them: " Just because I resemble a man and sound like a man does not make me a man."
Me: "Alright, sorry for agitating you. If you're a stranger, look, and sound like a man, its generally safe to assume you are. I didn't mean to be rude but please understand where I am coming from."
Them: "Well that's the last time I help someone at the grocery store."
Me: "Well, OK. Thanks for the help with the cereal anyway."
This is pretty bland but I usually get shit for "assuming" genders when I don't even know these people or care. I'm generally a more outgoing person but when stuff like this happens it makes me want to recede into myself and not talk to others out of fear I will get assaulted with something I frankly couldn't give two shits about. I'm sure this is hard for people to deal with transitions, ridicule from others, and internal issues, but please don't take it out on the guy who didn't even mean to upset you or know why you're upset at him in the first place. People think those memes don't happen in real like, they do.
FYI: Some older folk don't even understand this whole gender thing, I've tried explaining some of it to elder people I talk to in my community and most haven't even heard about it or can't even begin to fathom what this is. Not because they are against such a thing, more it is so abstract to them, the fact of being able to choose to be a man or woman baffles them. I live in northern Cali so i know I'm not in some conservative area.
Throwaway09234820394 ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 18:06:29 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
So, is it intentional that the guy in the GIF is talking to a guy, but you're saying that your relative is a "she"?
daileyjd ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 02:29:47 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
freshmenfreshpeopleSeudonymousKhan ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 02:41:10 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Depends on my mood since I'm binary fluid gender...
mynameisdbabz ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 03:07:03 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
is dicks and vaginas exceptable ??
[deleted] ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 03:10:41 on October 10, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
God Emperor.
mattyonice ยท -2 points ยท Posted at 18:04:37 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
N mmmkm.k jmik.m.
Its_free_and_fun ยท -5 points ยท Posted at 17:51:04 on October 9, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Thankfully, after millenia of time, we realized that we need to ask this, and that you cannot correct anyone without being severely distressed.