Do you anticipate using/attempting to use the UIKit-on-Mac APIs in next year's macOS to improve the Mac experience? Or should we expect to be on Electron for the foreseeable future? (I'm trying not to be as snarky as /u/BCosbyDidNothinWrong, but I sympathize with the core complaint.)
Which is frankly enough. Developer time is expensive and everyone whining is only in the hate for the bandwagon.
Electron is fine. Get that in your heads.
kankyo ยท 18 points ยท Posted at 00:01:06 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
If it used the native web view it would be a lot more acceptable. Especially for apps like discord where they need to make the app work on Edge and Safari anyways so donโt gain anything from being sure theyโre on chrome.
You'd be surprised! We have an iOS team of 2 people, after all. We have less than 50 engineers total managing and supporting our millions of users. If you would like to contribute to the cause, come over here: https://discordapp.com/jobs :)
Can I just say that I appreciate everything you and the discord team has created with the app. It is performant, fast, and lightweight.
Everyone here is busy jerking it to pointers, but I understand that you have the mindset of the practical, efficient programmer, not the needlessly wasting resources on multiple native support.
Hi, I would like to run discord, but I only have 32GB of memory.
I know it must be a challenge for a big company to optimize a chat application to fit in only 30,000 times the space of early clients like IRC, Instant Messenger and ICQ, but is it possible you guys will take on this engineering challenge in the future?
Discord is probably properly not rendering things outside the viewport. Slack is retarded and renders way too much. I use as many slack channels as discord channels, and slack uses 7 - 15 times more memory
I simply keep Slack open in a tab in my browser. I asked this question in the general chat channel of my company and the only answer I got was "the app tells you in the icon how many notifications you have". Which is not a compelling reason enough for me to have an Electron app eating up my RAM.
My browser tabs are a stack of currently relevant things that get nuked as soon as they are not relevant. While you could pin the slack tab or even pull it out into a separate window, there would still be a few usability and workflow problems.
It ultimately boils down to automatic separation of concerns.
I am using a tiling wm with tags (for the purposes of this example you can think of them as workspaces similar to what you'd get with something like gnome desktop manager).
All browser windows are automatically opened in the "www" tag. Most communication applications are going to the "contacts"; IRC and VoIP clients like Mumble get their own tags.
Everything that's used frequently enough is one keyboard shortcut away. Everything goes where it's supposed to when launched.
zerexim ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 12:49:26 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Not an expert on electron but surely someone here has done the profiling.
If your electron instance is only passing messages off to your app written in one systems language then the hit shouldn't be that bad right? Like an actual webpage, it wouldn't hold state or logic, just pass events and then display whatever it received from the app.
If your electron instance is only passing messages off to your app written in one systems language then the hit shouldn't be that bad right?
The overhead comes mostly from embedded chromium, so that wouldn't change much. Of course you can be more efficient with languages like c++ than with node.js, but honestly the high RAM usage is most likely because of bad coding instead of Electron.
In my experience Discord is an exception that stands out from the electron crowd. Not as good as mIRC and Miranda but seems to be in a different league from the other electrons.
tiftik ยท 34 points ยท Posted at 00:20:47 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I wonder how much of that memory usage in slack and discord is taken up by GIFs and static images in chat messages. As ICQ doesn't have those, i'd make the comparison a bit fairer (I know electron eats memory like the cookie monster eats biscuits).
But 60-132 is actually tame(ish). I expected a lot more.
I can probably bump it by going through more channels and scrolling more but that will be unfair to discord since the discussions in game-related channels have more pictures. I already went through much more channels with pictures.
pravic ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 10:46:08 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
It's a pity that Slack has dropped IRC gateway. I would not mind to use Miranda for Slack communication.
So, now it is accessible only by bots as in Discord, I guess.
Why are we comparing GTalk with Discord? It's like comparing a Metro Geo with a Porsche 911, sure the Geo weighs less but like...it's capabilities are far less.
I'm working on an electron app that connects multiple computers to be used as one device. The problem is, each device needs to run the the connecting app, so there is no free memory for your other electron apps.
Maybe so, but I've always wondered what the creators of disgustingly bloated and slow software would say if they were confronted with their terrible disregard for performance.
It turns out the answer is essentially 'fuck the haters lol'
It turns out the answer is essentially 'fuck the haters lol'
No, the answer in general is that RAM isn't scarce and the benefit of having a huge amount of shared code between all the platforms outweighs the 300 MB of RAM it uses.
I hate these apps using memory like kids eating candy as much as the next guy, but I realize why that is - it's because it's the best way for the developers to write less code between different platforms, and that's why it's okay.
It is to you, but not to developers. I do agree though, that practice needs to die in a fire, but I understand why they do it - it's much easier to bring the same app to multiple platforms.
Yes, that's the key distinction. The companies save $$$ on developement at the expense of their users RAM, about which they don't give a shit because they don't have to pay for it.
Basically you pay those companies for their ease of developement with your extra RAM and electricitry / battery life.
Ah, yes, the "proof by popularity". By the same logic eating at McDonald's is good for you.
The thing is the fact that many many people are willing sacrifice either their expensive hardware or their health doesn't mean it's a good idea to do so.
I'm fucking tired of ridiculous programmers first world problems and hyperexagerrations like that.
What do you think Slack made better than previous competition that made them so much more popular?
McDonalds was first here, and had positive (in the 90s) connotations with USA. Now they are entrenched in the market, but "craft" burgers are successfully gaining market. In addition, it's pretty cheap compared to competition, which is a significant difference between McD and Slack.
I'm fucking tired of ridiculous programmers first world problems and hyperexagerrations like that.
I'm equally tired of people claiming that popularity somehow implies good choices / values / virtue, while pretty much all of history suggest that's more often not the case than yes.
How does Slack's popularity help me when I'm trying to use it and it's slow as fuck?
How does Slack's popularity help me when I'm trying to use it and it's slow as fuck?
Because somehow it's not the case for great majority of users? Of course you're going to claim you're getting 1 fps on i9+32GB ram+SSD computer, that's your position.
Because somehow it's not the case for great majority of users?
I don't know about you but I hear & read complaints about Slack's performance (or rather lack thereof) quite often...
Of course you're going to claim you're getting 1 fps on i9+32GB ram+SSD computer, that's your position.
I've got an i7 laptop with an SSD. RAM is not the issue since right now only about 50% of my RAM is used and Slack is still slooooow...
Edit: Why do we even bother with this conversation, you could just write something like "Just shut up and fall in line like everyone else!" and I'd reply with "Sir, yes, sir!" and that'd be it.
I'm hearing it from colleagues (both former and present) pretty regularly, for example.
Personally I'm just anti-laggy-applications, because they get in the way of me trying to get something done, and I don't really care if the cause is Electron or something else. Some IDEs (esp. those made in Java) are actually laggier than Electron apps. Companies trying to save time and/or money at the expense of the software performance is no new thing under the sun, it was done long before Electron. Some companies/teams are trying to optimize their Electron apps with various techniques (either rewriting perf-critical parts in C++ and/or other strategies) and I genuinely support those.
Dude, i've asked for 16GB at work because 8 were not enough for Slack, Eclipse (Xmx1G) and Vivaldi (Chromium-based) browser, and some random stuff like test product launches (another Eclipse instance) and builds.
For any serious development, I can't imagine not having 16 GB - depending on your needs and how the company works and what tech you're using, 32 GB would even be better.
I use VSCode and even though it's one of the better-optimized Electron apps out there it's still a problem. Browser has some ~35 tabs open. The thing is I'd like to devote as much RAM as possible to compiling/building and other memory-intensive ad-hoc tasks.
I am on the look for an editor with the same/similar features as VSCode but easier on RAM.
As a developer, less than 16 GB of RAM doesn't make much sense. My old laptop currently has only 8 GB and I occasionally run out. My workstation at home has 32 GB because why not.
I love that VSCode looks and works the same on macOS, Linux, and Windows. Doesn't matter where I am, everything is the same. I'd be surprised if that was the case if Electron had not been part of the equation.
idobai ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 10:47:21 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I love that VSCode looks and works the same on macOS, Linux, and Windows. Doesn't matter where I am, everything is the same. I'd be surprised if that was the case if Electron had not been part of the equation.
I don't know of any graphical editors/IDEs with such a linear/flat learning curve, the feature-set, extensibility, and flexibility of VSCode that was made for Windows, Linux, and macOS.
Vim and Emacs doesn't count - they have extremely steep learning curves compared to VSCode/Atom/Sublime Text and are therefore not comparable.
idobai ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 12:33:14 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Nonsense, your argument was about working(and looking) the same way on different OSes without electron, not about the learning curve and your love towards your favorite editor.
Whatever, you knew exactly what I meant but you chose to ignore it. If I'm talking about VSCode, you can't compare it to vim. You can compare it to Atom, any IntelliJ editors and the likes that are available for all 3 popular platforms.
idobai ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 19:18:02 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Whatever, you knew exactly what I meant but you chose to ignore it.
No, it was very clear you just want to act like vscode is the best editor ever when it's just your opinion.
If I'm talking about VSCode, you can't compare it to vim.
Yes, I can.
You can compare it to Atom, any IntelliJ editors and the likes that are available for all 3 popular platforms.
Vim is available on more than the 3 mainstream platforms.
watlok ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 15:46:35 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)*
Eclipse and Sublime Text were both cross platform and easily extensible first. They're fairly similar to VSCode. I used Eclipse as my go-to cross platform source editor for a very long time and then used Sublime for quite a while due to it being lighter weight, more consistent to setup, and not breaking itself constantly.
VSCode is an improvement over Sublime, and it also eclipses eclipse for most languages. It does depend on the scale of the project, the language, and what tooling is available. VSCode isn't quite a full featured IDE, but neither are other popular editors like Sublime.
Anyhow, editor debate is pointless because people are tribal about what they like and know. It's like programming languages.
I've used Eclipse as well, and Atom too, albeit for a brief period.
VSCode is more like a go-betyeen a fully fledged IDE and a pure code editor - it provides many of the utilities, via extensions, that a full IDE does, but not all of them.
You're right, it is - I'm not religious about it, I just prefer one editor over the current selection. Once it was Atom, it was also Notepad++, it's been Eclipse, and now it's VSCode.
Edit: Even if we solve the RAM problem by buying more RAM, this doesn't solve the other performance issue of Electron applications - GUI latency and CPU requirements. VSCode's editing latency is pretty high, especially on larger projects. And yes, I tried disabling extensions to see if they are to blame, but not really, the editor is simply slow.
I love that VSCode looks and works the same on macOS, Linux, and Windows. Doesn't matter where I am, everything is the same. I'd be surprised if that was the case if Electron had not been part of the equation.
That's a completely different aspect. But ok let's talk about that. Does Sublime look significantly different on various OSes? I don't believe it does. I mean, window menus, file dialogs, etc. look different on each OS, but the same is true for VSCode.
VSCode's editing latency is pretty high, especially on larger projects.
I haven't experienced that yet - I've been working on both a modern 8 core/32 GB machine and an old dual core laptop, and there is a difference in performance, but I haven't had any editing latency. Perhaps my projects are smaller than yours.
I haven't used Sublime Text, so I can't say.
idobai ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 12:42:08 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)*
and an old dual core laptop, and there is a difference in performance, but I haven't had any editing latency.
Perhaps you just got used to the lag.
Perhaps my projects are smaller than yours.
Latency has almost nothing to do with project size. Check out this benchmark to learn about mainstream editors' latency.
I don't know of any graphical editors/IDEs with such a linear/flat learning curve, the feature-set, extensibility, and flexibility of VSCode that was made for Windows, Linux, and macOS.
I've moved to VS.Code after years of being a Sublime user and agree with him. VS.Code does a lot more out of the box, does all the stuff I like about Sublime right, and other things better. By the time I add enough extensions to Sublime for my workflow they generally drag its performance down seriously.
Anecdotally, Sublime has been pretty slow and buggy for me on Linux XFCE for quite a while back now. I used it as my non-IDE editor for quick editing and config files but stalls and other bugs have made me move to Mousepad an Vim for that lately.
idobai ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 17:19:53 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
By the time I add enough extensions to Sublime for my workflow they generally drag its performance down seriously.
But vscode and atom are slower than most editors and if you start add stuff to them they can leak gigabytes, not just get slower a bit. I haven't used sublime in 3 years(never had performance problems, it was just a weak editor for me) but I tried vscode this year and it was a no-go for me.
To be fair Code and Atom are not in the same league with regard to CPU and RAM utilization. Microsoft has done a great job there. I haven't witnessed gigabytes, but few hundred megabytes are normal for IDEs (and it's an IDE, just without the project ceremony).
My issues with Sublime only surfaced a year ago and only on my company Linux notebook (which has been running Xubuntu for that time).
idobai ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:28:04 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
To be fair Code and Atom are not in the same league with regard to CPU and RAM utilization.
They are absolutely in the same league. They're not in the league of sublime or np++ and definitely not in the league of emacs and vim.
Microsoft has done a great job there. I haven't witnessed gigabytes, but few hundred megabytes
That's already a lot(my heavily configured neovim eats like 250mb with 3-4 integrated terminals(10K lines scrollback limit) and with hundreds of open files) 2. try to customize them with plugins and open larger projects with them(not just toy projects with a few files) and see the difference yourself.
and it's an IDE, just without the project ceremony
They're not IDEs at all. They're editors with plugins. IDE = Integrated Development Environment; vscode and atom are more like Coding/Text Writing Tools.
which has been running Xubuntu for that time
Watch out for xfce - I liked that DE but it can lag and stutter like hell.
Microsoft has done a great job there. I haven't witnessed gigabytes, but few hundred megabytes
That's already a lot(my heavily configured neovim eats like 250mb with 3-4 integrated terminals(10K lines scrollback limit) and with hundreds of open files) 2. try to customize them with plugins and open larger projects with them(not just toy projects with a few files) and see the difference yourself.
Done both. Instructions unclear.
and it's an IDE, just without the project ceremony
They're not IDEs at all. They're editors with plugins. IDE = Integrated Development Environment; vscode and atom are more like Coding/Text Writing Tools.
Which parts of being an IDE does VS.Code lack? I'd love to adress that bit feature for feature. I don't miss anything from NetBeans or Eclipse or VS (the IDEs I've professionally used) and like the fact that a lot of the cruft isn't there.
which has been running Xubuntu for that time
Watch out for xfce - I liked that DE but it can lag and stutter like hell.
Haven't had that experience with anything but ST for the 5 years I've been a Xubuntu user.
idobai ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 21:22:02 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Done both. Instructions unclear.
Try to work on a project with a few million lines of code, emulate a few terminals, add plugins to enhance your workflow.
Which parts of being an IDE does VS.Code lack?
Like all of them - since it's just a text editor. Everything else is a plugin. Having plugins support won't turn an editor into an IDE.
I'd love to adress that bit feature for feature. I don't miss anything from NetBeans or Eclipse or VS (the IDEs I've professionally used) and like the fact that a lot of the cruft isn't there.
That "cruft" which can make you significantly more productive is the difference between IDEs and editors.
Haven't had that experience with anything but ST for the 5 years I've been a Xubuntu user.
Try to work on a project with a few million lines of code, emulate a few terminals, add plugins to enhance your workflow.
I use 30ish odd plug ins, I sometimes have two to four terminals running in Code but I do use proper terminal emulators for the rest of my work.
I don't really think millions of LOCs make much difference for quite a while in Code as I regularly patch and build large C codebases in Code for various reasons and didn't see much of a difference in responsiveness.
Which parts of being an IDE does VS.Code lack?
Like all of them - since it's just a text editor. Everything else is a plugin. Having plugins support won't turn an editor into an IDE.
Now you are just weaseling out.
I'd love to adress that bit feature for feature. I don't miss anything from NetBeans or Eclipse or VS (the IDEs I've professionally used) and like the fact that a lot of the cruft isn't there.
That "cruft" which can make you significantly more productive is the difference between IDEs and editors.
Precisely which features that would be?
Haven't had that experience with anything but ST for the 5 years I've been a Xubuntu user.
Try gaming or watching things on HiDPI displays.
I don't game, I do run three Full HD screens with XFCE. Often watch two different videos on two of them.
idobai ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:01:53 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I use 30ish odd plug ins, I sometimes have two to four terminals running in Code but I do use proper terminal emulators for the rest of my work.
I do all of my work in neovim including the usage of "proper" terminal emulators since neovim's terminal is very comfortable.
I don't really think millions of LOCs make much difference for quite a while in Code as I regularly patch and build large C codebases in Code for various reasons and didn't see much of a difference in responsiveness.
I was talking about resource usage, latency is already bad in electron-based editors. I'm curios about how much RAM vscode eats after loading a few files.
Now you are just weaseling out.
You just try to push vscode as an IDE when it clearly isn't one. Editors with plugin support != IDEs.
Precisely which features that would be?
Precisely every feature in an IDE like intellij. Vscode doesn't have those features, instead it has plugins like all the other editors.
I don't game, I do run three Full HD screens with XFCE. Often watch two different videos on two of them.
And you experience no stuttering, no screen tearing?
I use 30ish odd plug ins, I sometimes have two to four terminals running in Code but I do use proper terminal emulators for the rest of my work.
I do all of my work in neovim including the usage of "proper" terminal emulators since neovim's terminal is very comfortable.
I don't really think millions of LOCs make much difference for quite a while in Code as I regularly patch and build large C codebases in Code for various reasons and didn't see much of a difference in responsiveness.
I was talking about resource usage, latency is already bad in electron-based editors. I'm curios about how much RAM vscode eats after loading a few files.
Now you are just weaseling out.
You just try to push vscode as an IDE when it clearly isn't one. Editors with plugin support != IDEs.
Precisely which features that would be?
Precisely every feature in an IDE like intellij. Vscode doesn't have those features, instead it has plugins like all the other editors.
You obviously have very limited experience with both. It wasn't uncommon for NetBeans or Jetbrains IDEs to smash 2gigs of RAM. No one even thought about complaining about that. I've never seen that level of RAM usage with Code. I haven't bothered checking it with Eclipse.
The point being that it's not something you care about because it is a productivity boost.
I have the even better productivity in Code. I get the same stuff:
integrated debugger
completion and in line documentation
static code analysis integrated into editor for all languages
All of this for all languages i deal with. And trust me, be it Code or VS no one comes close to Microsoft in this stuff. Also:
superb git support and best in-editor merge conflict resolution I've ever used
compile/build /runtime exception integration with the editor
Markdown preview
Assets and resources preview
Etc
I didn't use more than that in any IDE I've used, and with all this (some of it provided or boosted by plugins) it's still snappier and less of a resource hog than any of the Java based IDEs I used before, and much better integrated into Linux to boot.
What I particularly liked about both Sublime and Code is that organic transition you have from editing a few files to it being a project /workspace as opposed to the soul sucking wizard ceremony in traditional IDEs. Code greatly improved on the concept and is much smarter and better about it tho, with multiproject support, git integration, debugging integration and smarter shell/OS integration.
Few hundred megabytes is a small price to pay for that, especially given that it was never an issue to pay the equivalent or even much higher price for Jetbrains stuff, Eclipse or NetBeans or Monodevelop or VS on Windows etc.
I don't game, I do run three Full HD screens with XFCE. Often watch two different videos on two of them.
And you experience no stuttering, no screen tearing?
No. There's a compositing wm in xfce for quite a while now. You do need to enable it. It's not animated circus like KDE or Gnome but it's pretty (when I theme it), resource friendly (leaving me more juice to run 100 Chrome tabs, Code, docker and lxc containers, which I need) and much, much less buggy than either of the two or Mate, or even Cinnamon. I can't be arsed to deal with tiling wms so xfce is perfect for me.
idobai ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 12:27:13 on July 28, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
You obviously have very limited experience with both.
Well, that describes you better since you can't differentiate an editor from an IDE. You're either unhealthily hyped or you've never used an IDE or an editor properly.
It wasn't uncommon for NetBeans or Jetbrains IDEs to smash 2gigs of RAM.
Intellij and netbeans consumed like 1-1.2GB memory for me when I was working on 100K-1M LoC EE projects. Intellij usually consumed 5-800MB of RAM for smaller projecs for me but the most important things - like the latency and the performance - are and will be always better in intellij than in electron-based editors.
No one even thought about complaining about that.
Because they're not just editors and they don't consume 2GB for average-sized projects.
I've never seen that level of RAM usage with Code.
Like most vscode/chrome/electron users, you probably forgot to sum the processes' ram usage and didn't really load anything large into them.
The point being that it's not something you care about because it is a productivity boost.
Yeah, I care more about performance and latency - which are worse in electron-based editors anyway.
I have the even better productivity in Code. I get the same stuff:
No, you don't. You only get those for the languages which have server-based or commandline tooling. And if there are implementations for them then you can use them with any editor. It seems like vscode doesn't have anything special.
All of this for all languages i deal with.
Those are just three basic features of an IDE - and you'll only get them if they're supported.
And trust me, be it Code or VS no one comes close to Microsoft in this stuff.
Stop the shilling, it wasn't ms who invented IDEs or extensible editors.
superb git support and best in-editor merge conflict resolution I've ever used
"superb" according to you but I've yet to see a more efficient way than git alias combos and vim diff.
compile/build /runtime exception integration with the editor
Literally, the smallest things.
Markdown preview
Any gui editor can do that - especially if it's browser-based one but you can have that by linking the markdown preview to your browser too.
Assets and resources preview
What do you preview? Scripts? HTML? You know, those are basic things which are not the signs of advanced tooling at all.
Etc
Great point. So in summary, you've the things any editor can have.
I didn't use more than that in any IDE I've used
So you've barely used any advanced IDE feature just the basic ones what you can get in any editor.
and with all this (some of it provided or boosted by plugins) it's still snappier and less of a resource hog than any of the Java based IDEs I used before
Try to use both with larger projects for a long time and you'll see the difference. Btw, no need to go that far since the performance and the latency will be worse for smaller projects too.
and much better integrated into Linux to boot.
False, vscode can't even integrate with the look-and-feel.
Code greatly improved on the concept and is much smarter and better about it tho
Sounds like a cheap marketing pitch.
with multiproject support
Absolutely useless feature.
git integration
Easy to implement. Unless if you want gui views but then it'll be very slow and will leak GBs of memory on larger projects(like gitkraken).
debugging integration
Yeah, can be done in any extensible editor if there's a server-based debugger.
and smarter shell/OS integration.
You either have a shell or don't. I doubt that you can program the integrated terminal in vscode. And what "OS integration"?
Few hundred megabytes is a small price to pay for that
It's not just the RAM - but the performance and the high latency too.
especially given that it was never an issue to pay the equivalent or even much higher price for Jetbrains stuff, Eclipse or NetBeans or Monodevelop or VS on Windows etc.
Because they can do more even with a bloated VM.
No. There's a compositing wm in xfce for quite a while now.
That compositor sucks. It won't prevent screen tearing at all. The only way to make it less of a problem is to use compton.
You do need to enable it.
No, it's enabled by default.
It's not animated circus like KDE or Gnome but it's pretty(when I theme it)
You can disable the animations in KDE.
resource friendly
The new KDE plasma(neon edition) consumes less than xubuntu on startup.
and much, much less buggy than either of the two or Mate, or even Cinnamon.
IMO, they're all buggy af. At least, the screen tearing is not as bad in KDE as in xfce.
I can't be arsed to deal with tiling wms so xfce is perfect for me.
And yet again you failed to mention a SINGLE feature I'm supposedly missing after I've spent over a decade writing enterprise software in various IDEs. I'm done wasting time with this.
idobai ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:51:54 on July 28, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
And yet again you failed to mention a SINGLE feature I'm supposedly missing after I've spent over a decade writing enterprise software in various IDEs.
If you'd have any experience with IDEs then you'd know that there are advanced features which are required for THAT specific task you're doing on a daily basis like ui designers, live runtime patchers, advanced application previews etc.
And if a language's ecosystem has tools for code completion, debugging and refactoring then those could be used with any editor - and using those tools won't turn an editor into an IDE. An IDE is an integrated development environment and an editor with the features you mentioned are just the basic parts of it.
I'm done wasting time with this.
Now I won't have to listen to the shilling anymore. It's not like you enumerated any reason why vscode was needed at all.
Btw, I tested vscode with a simple 10kb json file(7 processes for a single open file?!) - just the scrolling increased the RAM by 2-5mb every second and it used 10% CPU. Neovim only needed 1-2%CPU while its memory consumption stayed still. If just simple scrolling can increase the RAM usage then I think it has a bigger problem with RAM than java-based IDEs. Plus a freshly installed editor with no plugins shouldn't consume 350MB of RAM(+ increase by scrolling lol) with a 10kb json file and 4 other files around 1kb.
You must meant you never learned how to use them efficiently. It's never too late.
No, what I mean is that I don't do desktop UI software, which is where this was a thing. And when I did, literally every one of these generated horribly messy code that was pretty unmaintainable outside the graphical UI designer. And, foam around the mouth all you want, but Microsoft was on top of the game in this particular area, especially once Borland (the undisputed king of IDEs) hit the shitter and MS cherry picked their best engineers. Or what, you'll convince me that it's Oracle Forms or that joke called Xcode is where it's at?
I have no idea what this is supposed to mean, especially outside desktop UI work
Imagine things between emulators and UI designers.
I understand what it is: name one example outside desktop (or eventually mobile) UI work where this is used - IOW why should I care?
This is such an antipattern (using an IDE for that) that I don't even.
Having tools to debug and modify components with 1st-class support in the testing env are antipatterns now?
Any automation that is triggered from IDE and not a separate scriptable, stand-alone CI/CD environment is an antipattern.
Yet not one seems to really provide.
That sounds very ignorant. Do not think for a moment that vscode is tier-1 at everything and the rest of the editors and IDEs are just bullshit. vscode is new and shiny, provides nice themes and simple UIs for basic things - but that's it. It was made for beginners because ms always wants to appeal to hypebeasts.
I've actually tested and used quite a few ides and editors prior to settling with Code. It's the best tool for the work I do atm, if the work should change perhaps another environment will suit me better. I'm good at context switching, quick at zoning out and easy about relearning shortcuts and other muscle memory stuff which I why I never slaved to any environment.
Sure they often do have a badly kludged up bunch of these but no UX or any workflow around them.
What "workflow"?! Having gui support for basic dev things? Were you sleeping for the last decades?
It's not about "having a GUI" (others tick that box too) but seamlessness of execution/implementation. Or you think that it being the fastest growing development environment is all shills and marketing?
Also you might think that having a GUI is the best but when you'll work with larger projects and complex deployments they'll open your eyes - performance, efficiency and flexibility will matter more than you could imagine.
Says the guy who is selling the antipattern of running integration/deployment automation from IDE's UI as a sine qua non feature. Rich.
VSCode's editing latency is pretty high, especially on larger projects.
Emphasis is mine. That's why I mentioned project size.
Avoid comparisons without experience.
Alright, if you want to be pedantic - I have used Sublime Text briefly on Windows and I didn't like it. I went to Atom after a week, and went back to Notepad++.
idobai ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:21:13 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Could be - research on the Internet seems to point to it having a similar editing latency of Atom and the likes.
I hope not because I used atom as a secondary editor for a few months(was curious about the hype back then) and the editing latency was terrible.
Alright, if you want to be pedantic - I have used Sublime Text briefly on Windows and I didn't like it. I went to Atom after a week, and went back to Notepad++.
Well, atom and vscode are almost the same and if you like features, flat learning curve and care about cross platform support then why would you go back to np++? It sounds really weird for me. I used np++ too when I was on windows and only as a secondary editor.
Latency have almost nothing to do with project size.
Yes, that's possible, I don't know what caused it. I just know with some projects the latency in VSCode is ok-ish and in some other projects it's bad. I thought project size was the cause but it may very well be that the problem is something else, I don't know.
idobai ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:29:13 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Maybe it's the length of files or the syntax plugin.
There are thousands of cross platform apps that are 99% the same source code for every platform. If you think electron is the only way to make a cross platform program you are completely out of your mind.
It reads like a business graduate who took a multimedia module once that had a couple of hours of programming involved. And by "programming" I mean Squarespace. It's like if Donald Trump got into webdev.
People like Alan Cox obviously left Red Hat for Intel to continue low level engineering because the high level stuff was too difficult for him. He speaks like he doesn't even understand what low level means. Either that or he's being facetious. "High level means good, right?"
You are absolutely right. No one uses low level languages to run multi million dollar equipment like rockets, or airplanes, or satellites. I'm pretty sure all of that is written by superior 10xer web developers who have outgrown obsolete languages like 'C' (pointers? More like point to that sweet sweet electron app am I right?)
So yeah people! Talk to me when you've moved on from microcontrollers or microprocessors. Just use a Mac Book Pro with Visual Studio to run your rockets! Praise Agile. We Are All Individuals!
Yeah Iโm sure that 8 week node.js boot camp you took makes you more qualified than the developers who wrote the code to make your web app actually interact with the processor.
tudda ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 20:00:36 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Elezium ยท 33 points ยท Posted at 22:21:15 on July 26, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
The issue is that all Desktop app will end using Electron. So say you have 6-7 Electron app... Well... You're not too far from the usual 8Gb RAM of most people. So yup, at some point, memory will be an issue.
Kasuist ยท 29 points ยท Posted at 02:27:38 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Discord, Slack (multiple teams), GitKraken, Xcode, iOS Simulator, web browser, collectively use up 10 GB of ram on my Mac. Good thing I have 16, but come on.
Discord is not slow, though. Slack is. I'm. Sure if they made Discord using native frameworks on the respective platforms, they would get a faster app with less memory footprint, but it would also be a lot more work and maintenance of the code bases.
[deleted] ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 11:55:42 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Well, React Native for desktop is a thing now. It's good on Windows because Microsoft keeps it up to date. I suppose MS keeps Electron going now too, since they purchased GitHub.
The MacOS version of RN seems to be kept fairly up to date by its developer, too.
There's also a React Native port that renders using QT and works on Windows, Linux, and MacOS.
So Discord could potentially use RN for *all* of their apps, both mobile and desktop.
Using RN desktop is probably more risky than using Electron, though. I think the RN desktop ports are more likely to be forgotten or abandoned than Electron is.
If you work on software that has a justifiably high memory hit and/or require running multiple tools that do too, you really can't justify using a chat client that eats up an excessive amount of memory.
Not to mention those of us who own laptops you can just stuff another 8GB stick of RAM onto the mobo. Even if I feel it's justified to run to the RAM store because my chat client is obese.
Talran ยท 16 points ยท Posted at 04:23:21 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Lots of server software, even though they have "tons of ram" really need to actually be optimized into something not webshit, and the insinuation otherwise (not by you) is hilarious.
Talran ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 04:20:15 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
it's because it's the best way for the developers to write less code between different platforms
Pretty far from the best, it's just the easiest and easiest to hire for because of SV memes.
Is everything in your house or apartment perfect? If not, why don't you move out?
I think users tolerate terrible software because they have to, not because they don't care. Look at the rise of uTorrent before it was ruined - super small, super fast, and not only ate all other torrent client's market share, it took torrenting to new heights by drawing in new people due to how much it hit its target.
You're still thinking too much like a programmer. Nobody is forcing you or anyone else to use Discord.
Unless you want to make the argument that you have to use it because everyone else is. But what about those early adopters? They chose to use the platform despite it using Electron because they don't care.
I think performant software is great, but it takes many more man hours to create and maintain. It's just not worth it in many cases.
nobody really cares tbh, people just like to complain
lanzaio ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 03:09:11 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
but I've always wondered what the creators of disgustingly bloated and slow software would say if they were confronted with their terrible disregard for performance.
Because you don't understand 10th grade economics enough to understand why a company would hire a couple web devs to make a quick React app instead of hiring a dozen C++ engineers to make a QT app that looks like shit with blurry rendered fonts and GUI elements.
Because you don't understand 10th grade economics enough to understand why a company would hire a couple web devs to make a quick React app instead of hiring a dozen C++ engineers to make a QT app that looks like shit with blurry rendered fonts and GUI elements.
yeah I guess as a mostly single guy I can build a whole DAW in Qt that does not look blurry but the ~100 engineers at Slack would have trouble with a chat app
lanzaio ยท -13 points ยท Posted at 06:04:17 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
A. Your team page literally lists 13 people including many designers and engineers.
B. Has your company even gone anywhere? Your twitter page is 6 years old and has 87 followers. You have a QT project with probably dozens of users.
You're a perfect example of the reason why Electron exists. It takes less effort, money and time with less talented engineers and designers to make a more functional and more visually appealing product with Electron than it does with QT.
A. Your team page literally lists 13 people including many designers and engineers.
https://github.com/OSSIA/score/graphs/contributors ; I wrote the near-integrality of the current codebase which is the part relevant to "why a company would hire a couple web devs to make a quick React app instead of hiring a dozen C++ engineers".
Besides, I doubt the used tech makes a difference for designers since they work in Illustrator / $DESIGNTOOL and not Electron or Qt or whatever.
B. Has your company
it's not a company, but a free software project centered around contemporary art - besides this being a fairly niche "market", we don't put a lot of attention to social media. I don't know if anyone even still have the passwords to this twitter account to be honest... what matters is that there are are installations out there that run on this. Of course you have less art installations in the world than Discord users, but that's completely besides the point.
Slack is valued at billions of dollars. The market is hot so if you wrote competing better software youโd win. Go get โem.
As a user, I donโt give a shit. Iโd happily give my IDE 8 GB, my browser 1 GB, and my chat app 1 GB if theyโll do the job well, and they do so I donโt care. I have lots of RAM. Working software is way more useful than RAM. Having formatted code in my chat app is way more useful than RAM. Having integration with my other tools is way more important than RAM.
Slack is valued at billions of dollars. The market is hot so if you wrote competing better software youโd win. Go get โem.
LOL, they're probably grossly overvalued, like a lot of other "disruptors" in Silicon Valley.
I also find the suggestion that the best quality software will always win hilarious, because that's a load of bullshit.
Having formatted code in my chat app is way more useful than RAM.
I have 16GB on my work machine and between multiple IDE instances, a DB server, profiling tools that are very CPU/RAM intensive, and other background processes, I couldn't give two shits about formatted code in a chat app if it slurps up a full precious GB of RAM.
I have 32 GB. I don't understand why you'd skimp on a work machine. It's a rounding error.
Chat is definitely one area where the best app has won. There have been numerous competitors in the space and Slack has overturned every incumbent. I was sceptical in the beginning but I'm a believer now. Terrific tool.
I have 32 GB. I don't understand why you'd skimp on a work machine. It's a rounding error.
I'm not skimping, the machine belongs to the company I work for. 16GB isn't low end either.
What of folks working in developing countries? Not everyone has the ability to waste money on more ram just to run a resource hog of a chat app on their already constrained dev environments.
How ancient is your pc that discord runs slow for you? Itโs a much better experience than any of the other clients Iโve used for video chat and screen sharing.
I really wonder the people who circlejerk about RN and Electronโs day job is. A startup doesnโt have all the time and resources to build native for every platform.
It sounds like you have very strong opinions about the performance of our client! As you seem to be an expert, might I suggest https://discordapp.com/jobs :)
If you have better ideas about building our clients, or you want to open up our API, might I suggest clicking that jobs link? Then you can get paid to put us to shame!
I donโt think itโs a weak deflection. Discordโs product is fundamentally the client + service. With only less than 50 engineers supporting our millions of users, we canโt satisfy everybody, so of course some people are going to be upset that we donโt service their exact needs. I feel very lucky that I work on a product that people feel strongly enough about that they would continually try to defend their viewpoint on the Internet. If you care that much, why not leave your job and come here? Thatโs what I did :P Discordโs product didnโt fit my exact use case, so I joined the team.
But the thing preventing us writing a custom client is your terms of service, nothing technical. Enough of the API is available for anyone to do it, so the limitation seems mostly arbitrary.
No, the thing preventing us from allowing custom clients is 2 things:
1) we donโt have a public API and an API designed around public use. Iโm certain that you and I would agree that the mechanics of twitterโs public API and private API are different. If you feel strongly about launching a public API, please apply :)
2) Discordโs fundamental product is BOTH the UI experience and the server side processing. To say that we are just one is a simply a misunderstanding of our business. Do you play video games? Do you expect to be able to connect to StarCraft without Blizzardโs meticulously crafted UI? So I fail to see how weโre any different here. However, our clients are FAR from perfect. I can tell you at least 10 major iOS bugs right now, and many more missing features. We have a small team for many reasons, but the drawback to it is that we cannot make every single person happy. If you have ideas about improving the performance of our clients, or you want to optimize our clients so that they perform better in certain use cases, once again, please apply :)
oorza ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 15:32:20 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
The time you save using Electron will be paid back, and more, trying to get your application to work in a way that won't kill users' computers. Just use a more mature, performant GUI toolkit.
Obviously I'd like lighter-weight software too, but the alternatives to discord (Teamspeak and Mumble) are really unintuitive to use. Personally I'd prefer a simple-to-use electron app over a convoluted light-weight app. If a better-designed UI is easier to accomplish using electron, I'll take it.
oorza ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 20:32:58 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
My point wasn't that it wasn't easier to get shit done in Electron, it obviously is. But building a UI is the first step in a long road to having a functional GUI application, and if you figure the time spent implementing the core logic of the application is roughly the same, you're trading time up front getting the UI assembled for time on the back-end making the application perform well. If you are happy with the performance of Electron, then it's a good trade, but if you are gonna wind up in a situation where people start bitching about your app and you want to make them happy, the time saved up front is gonna come back when you have to reimplement things in native GUI code, profile your application and refactor parts of it, etc. Again, if you don't care about the performance implications, it's probably a good decision to use, but it seems more and more applications are built with it and then you see blog posts about the Herculean efforts developers have had to take to make it perform as to users' expectations.
I am making demo software that will be run on several expo/conference screens. I already have most of the components built in HTML/Vue so there's no point reinventing everything in another framework I don't know when it's pretty easy just to port stuff over.
Even if we made it a web app (which is not likely or convenient since we would have to host different sites for different clients, and internet access is spotty), it would still be run in Chrome or Chromium so overall the impact wouldn't be too bad.
I don't know of any other options short of NWJS, which seems to have a lot less support.
netsrak ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 21:21:01 on July 26, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Do you think we could ever hide servers we are in to save some space on memory?
I just want to say that I am super impressed with Discord (using it on Windows desktop only since I am still a Windows Phone user). I never believed such a dynamic and flashy (images, animations, links) app can be built with Electron while staying responsive. Slack, which is essentially the same feature set is visibly slower to the point where I can see it drawing components on the screen and I am in many more Discord channels than Slack channels and there are more users and activity in my Discord channels. I don't know how you do that magic but keep doing it.
P.S. please add an option to send a message with ctrl+enter instead of enter. I need this badly.
jiffier ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 07:36:15 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Fair enough. Now, if 10 years from now you can still say the same, I'll jump to Electron.
Sorry, not sure which part you're asking about, so I'll try to answer as best I can understand.
I'm happy about Electron because it allows us to bundle a native app without sacrificing developer speed. Our millions of users can attest that the performance drawbacks of Electron is not significant enough to impact their usage and ability to run CPU-intensive video games while running our app. There are a lot of other Electron-specific gains I can't speak to because I'm not an Electron developer :)
I am happy with React because it has ushered in a fascinating renaissance in front end development inspired by the amazing work the FP/FRP community has already been doing for decades.
I am happy with code share because it means I have less work to do :P
When will you guys start threating modern Windows as a first-class citizen, and use React.Native there too? There are also millions of Windows tablet users that would appreciate that. Or at the very least, give us a PWA.
This is one of the few reasons why I rarely use Discord.
I don't think PWA would be any better, possibly even worse. It would still need a browser to run, and that's where the Electron overhead comes from. If I open Discord in browser, it actually seems to use more memory than the electron app.
We are making a small change in how memory used by suspended UWP apps/processes appears in Task Manager. Going forward, the main memory column in Task Manager โProcessesโ tab will not include memory used by suspended UWP processes. This is to more accurately reflect the OS behavior in which the OS can reclaim memory used by suspended UWP processes if needed. This means that if you have several UWP processes suspended in the background, the OS can take back memory from these suspended UWP processes if needed and use it for something that requires more memory. New and old memory columns will be available in โDetailsโ tab for you to do comparisons if you want.
Edge is very resource efficient on Windows. That said, the best option would be React Native.
mrkcsc ยท 27 points ยท Posted at 20:50:31 on July 26, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Like most things in software - everything is a trade off.
Using Electron allowed us to move super fast and get off the ground with a very small team in the early days (and we are still quite small all things considering) and focus on other core user facing product features.
That being said, from day 1 we have always deeply cared about performance as a team and (in my opinion) Discord is quite performant (try quickly resizing dragging the window) and not distinguishable as an Electron app without close inspection.
The only other Electron application Iโve used is Atom, which runs horrendously slow on everything Iโve used it on. Confidently agree Discord has found a way to make it perfectly fast and snappy enough.
React and React Native certainly have their drawbacks, as we've detailed a lot in the blog post. However, we think that the pros of RN (speed of development and iteration, for myself, mostly) more than makes up for its drawbacks :)
Certainly there are tradeoffs. However I would say that our app adoption suggests that at the very least, most of our users do not find that the cons that you point out terrible enough that they would abandon our app :)
Congratulations on making an application that sends text over the internet and just barely avoids being so bloated and slow that your users would rather isolate themselves from other people than use it.
I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean. Do you think that I need to write a chat program to prove that discord is bloated and slow, or do you think that because discord is popular, that must mean that it is not bloated and slow?
[deleted] ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 23:12:06 on July 26, 2018 ยท (Permalink)*
[deleted]
Kasuist ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 03:18:03 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
It doesnโt really though. When you have a product that is the best at X people will use it no matter what, even if it falls short in other areas.
Itโs not that people donโt care. You just have to read through the comments to see here that they do. Itโs that there isnโt much better alternatives out there.
Using Facebook as an example. Lots of people complain about it, but until a better alternative comes along, people will just put up with the privacy issues.
They provide 3 different ways to report bugs. The best one seems to be to join their official tester server where bugs will be reviewed by "bug hunters". It's not a public issue tracker, but it should do.
oorza ยท 20 points ยท Posted at 15:34:15 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
"How not to get bug reports from your users by making it difficult" 101
oorza ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 17:49:38 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
It's significantly harder if you (as the user) want to track progress, want confirmation your bug was accepted, need to interface with the engineer fixing the bug, or don't want to expose your email address to the service. It's significantly harder if you (as the engineer) want to inform the user of progress, need to interface with the user reporting the bug, need to get the reporter to confirm a fix, etc.
There's more to reporting issues than sending a note down a mine shaft, never to be heard from again.
Actually, if you join our Bug Hunters server you can see our *public* bug tracker. They do not go into an abyss, we have two people full time and a bunch of community volunteers managing this community. As an iOS dev at least 40% of my team each week is spent paying attention to and engaging with this community. It's thanks to these Bug Hunters that we can ship so many apps safely and quickly :)
Hi there! We do have a public issue tracker. It is located within our Bug Hunters community https://support.discordapp.com/hc/en-us/articles/115000465492-How-to-Report-Bugs). I do not manager the Bug Hunters so I can't speak to exactly why it seems "hidden" behind a public community but my guess is that we need the guarantee and proof that someone will do, at the very least, the work of joining the community and reading the FAQs before reporting things. However, there is no requirement that you engage in this community in order to submit bugs. We just have a system that is centralized and works well for us, and yes, is 100% public and transparent.
Hi there! Our public issue tracker is located within the "Bug Hunters" community linked to by /u/samjmckenzie (thanks!). That is the best place to get issues reported and triaged, and you will be able to track the progress of your issue there.
tdifen ยท 12 points ยท Posted at 20:18:44 on July 26, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
So are they using React Native only for IOS? I'm not a React Native dev but I was under the impression that it worked well enough in Android to be fine for production. What is the alternative? Just build a native app?
We do use React Native cross platform, the distinction here is that we share code between our Desktop app and our iOS app.
Jaycuse ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 01:10:16 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I would argue that using react native cross platform, and sharing js/react component code are two different things. It sounds like you share some code but from what you are saying you are just using react native for ios. Unless I misunderstood something.
We use React on Desktop, which has similar fundamental principles. Our common libraries are agnostic to either platform such that we can share all of our business logic (Redux/Flux stores, action creators, data fetching, etc) but all View logic is custom.
oorza ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 15:35:52 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I think what he meant was: can you use react-native-windows to generate a native UWP/WPF app instead of using electron?
We have not explored this option and if is not on our road map to do so. Our desktop electron app and web app are backed by the same react components and it seems unlikely we would change that.
oorza ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 16:13:07 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
You would only have to change the innermost view layer, everything else should be share-able between the other react codebases.
occz ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:52:14 on July 26, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Are you planning on going full react native or are you content with developing and maintaining the versions separately?
We will continue to re-evaluate using RN with Android. As of right now the performance on Android isn't good enough on low end devices, particularly because we support a very wide range of Android devices whereas our iOS users tend to lag only 1 or 2 hardware generations behind. To be honest it is hard to say -- my gut feeling is that adding React Native to an existing native app is pretty difficult, and we are pretty happy as is maintaining both apps separately.
The sad truth of being a 2 person team :( but if youโre interested in helping us be even more impressive, might I suggest checking out discordapp.com/jobs??
I would love to work with you guys but I don't know much full stack and am not really interested in web dev. If you're hiring interns/temps/junior devs I'd gladly come aboard though :D
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:07:53 on July 28, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
What development do you do, if not web dev? Just curious.
Currently I'm in mobile but not really passionate about it. I've been trying to get into blockchain/DLT dev, been looking into Solidity a lot lately. Doing something backend or relates to software architecting would be ideal for me.
Just curious, I guess when you guys started off, Flutter wasn't a thing, but did you take a look at it lately? any opinion you could drawn?
mrkcsc ยท 12 points ยท Posted at 01:34:02 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
We think Flutter is pretty cool but since our main app codebase is already written in React, writing our mobile apps in flutter would not let us leverage code sharing between that primary codebase.
It would let us leverage code sharing between the mobile code bases but for us thats less compelling that the allure of not having to re-write business logic :)
Do you think that if Flutter for the desktop was a viable option, you would've favored it over React?
I know that Flutter for the desktop is a work in progress right now.
mrkcsc ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 17:50:28 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Possibly - while it's hard to say for sure - if Flutter for Desktop is very compelling and one could turn back time to before we had written any code - it might be a great tool for the job.
The only particular hesitation I might express is that Google does not have a great track record of sticking with their projects/initiatives and I would be concerned that in one or two years they shift focus away from the project in favor of something else.
Most of our decisions - and I think this is a good approach generally - are made in the context of what already exists, what the other trade-offs are and also what interests those who will be building the products and features :)
Wow, really cool to see a blog post about react native! I hope Discord does more in the future because this really helps as a somewhat new react-native dev.
Just saw your job postings & I wish you had internship roles; seems like a pretty great environment for devs
geodel ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 00:26:47 on July 28, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Huh, as if they could have done the right thing and develop app with native OS APIs.
React Native is simply a framework around Native OS APIs :) All "React Native Views" are actually Native views. So yes, thank you, we are doing the right thing!
geodel ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 00:40:47 on July 28, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
So there is no Java script no Electron involved anywhere?
There is JavaScript in the iOS app. JS acts as a โwrapperโ of sorts around the Native APIs (more complex than that of course, but there are blog posts better at explaining this than me tapping away on Reddit mobile). Iโm not aware of there being Electron on iOS at all, given that Electron is a wrapper for Desktop apps.
what did you ever deliver something that was useful to millions of people? Did you ever write anything fully assed with your C/CPP/Rust
Blocks_ ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 15:50:42 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
While I don't agree with tonefart, asking if someone if they've done something better than someone else doesn't make their compaints any less valid. Asking if tonefart has delivered something useful to millions of people isn't a good argument at all to his argument of Discord not having proper decision making leads.
Yeah but when you get mad at Manning for making a weird throw that ends up being a touchdown and the only thing you've ever played is soccer you just kinda look whiny and out of your element.
Saved comment
mv303 ยท 54 points ยท Posted at 19:56:29 on July 26, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Aren't they using Electron on Desktop or something?
๐๏ธ arushofblood ยท 63 points ยท Posted at 20:05:44 on July 26, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Hi! We do use Electron + React on Desktop :) That allows us to share a lot of code between iOS and Desktop.
75thTrombone ยท 19 points ยท Posted at 22:07:33 on July 26, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Do you anticipate using/attempting to use the UIKit-on-Mac APIs in next year's macOS to improve the Mac experience? Or should we expect to be on Electron for the foreseeable future? (I'm trying not to be as snarky as /u/BCosbyDidNothinWrong, but I sympathize with the core complaint.)
๐๏ธ arushofblood ยท 10 points ยท Posted at 22:15:06 on July 26, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Yes, we should expect to be on Electron for the foreseeable future.
MyPhallicObject ยท -18 points ยท Posted at 23:46:54 on July 26, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Which is frankly enough. Developer time is expensive and everyone whining is only in the hate for the bandwagon.
Electron is fine. Get that in your heads.
kankyo ยท 18 points ยท Posted at 00:01:06 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
If it used the native web view it would be a lot more acceptable. Especially for apps like discord where they need to make the app work on Edge and Safari anyways so donโt gain anything from being sure theyโre on chrome.
onionhammer ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 00:59:42 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I bet it's possible to keep the developer experience identical and slim down Electron a lot, maybe Microsoft can pour some $$ into it ;)
s73v3r ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 19:17:55 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Electron is not fine, and quite frankly, a company like them has enough resources to make native clients.
๐๏ธ arushofblood ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 23:25:40 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
You'd be surprised! We have an iOS team of 2 people, after all. We have less than 50 engineers total managing and supporting our millions of users. If you would like to contribute to the cause, come over here: https://discordapp.com/jobs :)
MyPhallicObject ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 01:12:39 on July 28, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Can I just say that I appreciate everything you and the discord team has created with the app. It is performant, fast, and lightweight.
Everyone here is busy jerking it to pointers, but I understand that you have the mindset of the practical, efficient programmer, not the needlessly wasting resources on multiple native support.
Thank you for your service.
BCosbyDidNothinWrong ยท 307 points ยท Posted at 20:49:12 on July 26, 2018 ยท (Permalink)*
Hi, I would like to run discord, but I only have 32GB of memory.
I know it must be a challenge for a big company to optimize a chat application to fit in only 30,000 times the space of early clients like IRC, Instant Messenger and ICQ, but is it possible you guys will take on this engineering challenge in the future?
Eirenarch ยท 138 points ยท Posted at 22:15:01 on July 26, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I know you are joking but from my Task Manager right now after idling in these chats for a while
After clicking around in all of them to wake them up
I have the most channels/contacts/activity in Skype and Discord
Miranda NG with GTalk and ICQ - 3.8MB RAM :)
DerNalia ยท 43 points ยท Posted at 23:04:37 on July 26, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Discord is probably properly not rendering things outside the viewport. Slack is retarded and renders way too much. I use as many slack channels as discord channels, and slack uses 7 - 15 times more memory
endeavourl ยท 38 points ยท Posted at 06:33:28 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
You sure you count all the processes?
https://i.imgur.com/fTNYPwF.png
ElCerebroDeLaBestia ยท 18 points ยท Posted at 11:07:02 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Why people use the app? Honest question.
I simply keep Slack open in a tab in my browser. I asked this question in the general chat channel of my company and the only answer I got was "the app tells you in the icon how many notifications you have". Which is not a compelling reason enough for me to have an Electron app eating up my RAM.
irqlnotdispatchlevel ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 16:50:29 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
alt + tab to it is easier than finding the right browser tab / window.
endeavourl ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 11:09:15 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I used to use it in a browser tab when i had one team. But having a tab always open for each team is annoying.
phpthrowaway12321 ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 12:54:16 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
My browser tabs are a stack of currently relevant things that get nuked as soon as they are not relevant. While you could pin the slack tab or even pull it out into a separate window, there would still be a few usability and workflow problems.
It ultimately boils down to automatic separation of concerns.
I am using a tiling wm with tags (for the purposes of this example you can think of them as workspaces similar to what you'd get with something like gnome desktop manager).
All browser windows are automatically opened in the "www" tag. Most communication applications are going to the "contacts"; IRC and VoIP clients like Mumble get their own tags.
Everything that's used frequently enough is one keyboard shortcut away. Everything goes where it's supposed to when launched.
zerexim ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 12:49:26 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Corporate policy.
Eirenarch ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 07:31:16 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Yeah I did count all the processes although today it is above 600MB (I haven't turned it off).
filleduchaos ยท 26 points ยท Posted at 00:46:27 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
It's a horror story on macOS. With all the helpers and such Slack regularly chews through 2 - 3GB of RAM with just two teams.
Carighan ยท 10 points ยท Posted at 22:35:49 on July 26, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
~10MB for me, but it's also being used for a few IRC chats and for Skype.
Eirenarch ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 23:04:38 on July 26, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I have removed any skins and such, maybe this makes a difference?
Holy_City ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 05:03:57 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Not an expert on electron but surely someone here has done the profiling.
If your electron instance is only passing messages off to your app written in one systems language then the hit shouldn't be that bad right? Like an actual webpage, it wouldn't hold state or logic, just pass events and then display whatever it received from the app.
Eirenarch ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 07:32:42 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I don't know. I just know that every electron chat app but Discord is total crap
FINDarkside ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 13:16:30 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
The overhead comes mostly from embedded chromium, so that wouldn't change much. Of course you can be more efficient with languages like c++ than with node.js, but honestly the high RAM usage is most likely because of bad coding instead of Electron.
BCosbyDidNothinWrong ยท 22 points ยท Posted at 22:25:12 on July 26, 2018 ยท (Permalink)*
Yeah, I think we both know that list is a who's who of who's way too bloated.
I'm personally much more concerned with interactivity, and electron apps typically do very poorly there too.
Eirenarch ยท 24 points ยท Posted at 22:29:06 on July 26, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
In my experience Discord is an exception that stands out from the electron crowd. Not as good as mIRC and Miranda but seems to be in a different league from the other electrons.
tiftik ยท 34 points ยท Posted at 00:20:47 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Yeah. Almost up there with VS Code.
Veranova ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 15:56:44 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
They react native app is also phenomenal
SpaceToad ยท 9 points ยท Posted at 08:36:08 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
mIRC? What? Thatโs a terrible client even amongst irc clients.
aazav ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 23:16:12 on July 26, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
who's* who
NotExecutable ยท 15 points ยท Posted at 22:29:21 on July 26, 2018 ยท (Permalink)*
I wonder how much of that memory usage in slack and discord is taken up by GIFs and static images in chat messages. As ICQ doesn't have those, i'd make the comparison a bit fairer (I know electron eats memory like the cookie monster eats biscuits).
But 60-132 is actually tame(ish). I expected a lot more.
Eirenarch ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 22:32:18 on July 26, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I can probably bump it by going through more channels and scrolling more but that will be unfair to discord since the discussions in game-related channels have more pictures. I already went through much more channels with pictures.
pravic ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 10:46:08 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
It's a pity that Slack has dropped IRC gateway. I would not mind to use Miranda for Slack communication.
So, now it is accessible only by bots as in Discord, I guess.
anengineerandacat ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 02:53:27 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Why are we comparing GTalk with Discord? It's like comparing a Metro Geo with a Porsche 911, sure the Geo weighs less but like...it's capabilities are far less.
zeroZshadow ยท 13 points ยท Posted at 22:09:30 on July 26, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Easy fix! Just close your browser and the freed memory should provide the space required to run Discord a few times.
BCosbyDidNothinWrong ยท 21 points ยท Posted at 22:26:25 on July 26, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Hmm, I definitely need my browser, so I suppose I'll just have to buy a separate computer for each electron app I have to run.
ProfessorTag ยท 11 points ยท Posted at 00:10:58 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I'm working on an electron app that connects multiple computers to be used as one device. The problem is, each device needs to run the the connecting app, so there is no free memory for your other electron apps.
asdfkjasdhkasd ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 07:55:05 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
use an ec2.large to run slack on aws and remote desktop into it
Patman128 ยท 34 points ยท Posted at 21:47:43 on July 26, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
/r/programmingcirclejerk
BCosbyDidNothinWrong ยท 59 points ยท Posted at 21:55:38 on July 26, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Maybe so, but I've always wondered what the creators of disgustingly bloated and slow software would say if they were confronted with their terrible disregard for performance.
It turns out the answer is essentially 'fuck the haters lol'
invisi1407 ยท 26 points ยท Posted at 22:11:13 on July 26, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
No, the answer in general is that RAM isn't scarce and the benefit of having a huge amount of shared code between all the platforms outweighs the 300 MB of RAM it uses.
I hate these apps using memory like kids eating candy as much as the next guy, but I realize why that is - it's because it's the best way for the developers to write less code between different platforms, and that's why it's okay.
endeavourl ยท 29 points ยท Posted at 06:35:39 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
RAM is scarce as fuck when you're trying to launch a game with several browsers open in the background - along with the actual web browser.
invisi1407 ยท -7 points ยท Posted at 08:46:43 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
It is to you, but not to developers. I do agree though, that practice needs to die in a fire, but I understand why they do it - it's much easier to bring the same app to multiple platforms.
spaghettiCodeArtisan ยท 20 points ยท Posted at 08:52:39 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Yes, that's the key distinction. The companies save $$$ on developement at the expense of their users RAM, about which they don't give a shit because they don't have to pay for it.
Basically you pay those companies for their ease of developement with your extra RAM and electricitry / battery life.
Japierdolocky ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 10:43:23 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Yet users prefer those programs to the legacy chat clients, because they value what they bring to the table more.
spaghettiCodeArtisan ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 10:52:52 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Ah, yes, the "proof by popularity". By the same logic eating at McDonald's is good for you.
The thing is the fact that many many people are willing sacrifice either their expensive hardware or their health doesn't mean it's a good idea to do so.
Japierdolocky ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 11:58:21 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)*
I'm fucking tired of ridiculous programmers first world problems and hyperexagerrations like that.
What do you think Slack made better than previous competition that made them so much more popular?
McDonalds was first here, and had positive (in the 90s) connotations with USA. Now they are entrenched in the market, but "craft" burgers are successfully gaining market. In addition, it's pretty cheap compared to competition, which is a significant difference between McD and Slack.
spaghettiCodeArtisan ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 12:54:43 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I'm equally tired of people claiming that popularity somehow implies good choices / values / virtue, while pretty much all of history suggest that's more often not the case than yes.
How does Slack's popularity help me when I'm trying to use it and it's slow as fuck?
Japierdolocky ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 12:58:38 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Because somehow it's not the case for great majority of users? Of course you're going to claim you're getting 1 fps on i9+32GB ram+SSD computer, that's your position.
spaghettiCodeArtisan ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 13:24:56 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I don't know about you but I hear & read complaints about Slack's performance (or rather lack thereof) quite often...
I've got an i7 laptop with an SSD. RAM is not the issue since right now only about 50% of my RAM is used and Slack is still slooooow...
Edit: Why do we even bother with this conversation, you could just write something like "Just shut up and fall in line like everyone else!" and I'd reply with "Sir, yes, sir!" and that'd be it.
Japierdolocky ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 13:56:00 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Only on typical antielectron /r/programming posts and similiar communities.
spaghettiCodeArtisan ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 14:14:01 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I'm hearing it from colleagues (both former and present) pretty regularly, for example.
Personally I'm just anti-laggy-applications, because they get in the way of me trying to get something done, and I don't really care if the cause is Electron or something else. Some IDEs (esp. those made in Java) are actually laggier than Electron apps. Companies trying to save time and/or money at the expense of the software performance is no new thing under the sun, it was done long before Electron. Some companies/teams are trying to optimize their Electron apps with various techniques (either rewriting perf-critical parts in C++ and/or other strategies) and I genuinely support those.
invisi1407 ยท -4 points ยท Posted at 09:00:44 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
As long as you don't run:
.. at the same time, then you should be good even with 8 GB of RAM.
endeavourl ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 13:13:30 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Dude, i've asked for 16GB at work because 8 were not enough for Slack, Eclipse (Xmx1G) and Vivaldi (Chromium-based) browser, and some random stuff like test product launches (another Eclipse instance) and builds.
invisi1407 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 17:12:22 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
For any serious development, I can't imagine not having 16 GB - depending on your needs and how the company works and what tech you're using, 32 GB would even be better.
spaghettiCodeArtisan ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 09:08:41 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I use VSCode and even though it's one of the better-optimized Electron apps out there it's still a problem. Browser has some ~35 tabs open. The thing is I'd like to devote as much RAM as possible to compiling/building and other memory-intensive ad-hoc tasks.
I am on the look for an editor with the same/similar features as VSCode but easier on RAM.
invisi1407 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 09:14:45 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
As a developer, less than 16 GB of RAM doesn't make much sense. My old laptop currently has only 8 GB and I occasionally run out. My workstation at home has 32 GB because why not.
I love that VSCode looks and works the same on macOS, Linux, and Windows. Doesn't matter where I am, everything is the same. I'd be surprised if that was the case if Electron had not been part of the equation.
idobai ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 10:47:21 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Never done before!
invisi1407 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 11:57:32 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Could you elaborate on that?
I don't know of any graphical editors/IDEs with such a linear/flat learning curve, the feature-set, extensibility, and flexibility of VSCode that was made for Windows, Linux, and macOS.
Vim and Emacs doesn't count - they have extremely steep learning curves compared to VSCode/Atom/Sublime Text and are therefore not comparable.
idobai ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 12:33:14 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Nonsense, your argument was about working(and looking) the same way on different OSes without electron, not about the learning curve and your love towards your favorite editor.
invisi1407 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 17:17:59 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Whatever, you knew exactly what I meant but you chose to ignore it. If I'm talking about VSCode, you can't compare it to vim. You can compare it to Atom, any IntelliJ editors and the likes that are available for all 3 popular platforms.
idobai ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 19:18:02 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
No, it was very clear you just want to act like vscode is the best editor ever when it's just your opinion.
Yes, I can.
Vim is available on more than the 3 mainstream platforms.
watlok ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 15:46:35 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)*
Eclipse and Sublime Text were both cross platform and easily extensible first. They're fairly similar to VSCode. I used Eclipse as my go-to cross platform source editor for a very long time and then used Sublime for quite a while due to it being lighter weight, more consistent to setup, and not breaking itself constantly.
VSCode is an improvement over Sublime, and it also eclipses eclipse for most languages. It does depend on the scale of the project, the language, and what tooling is available. VSCode isn't quite a full featured IDE, but neither are other popular editors like Sublime.
Anyhow, editor debate is pointless because people are tribal about what they like and know. It's like programming languages.
invisi1407 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 17:11:24 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I've used Eclipse as well, and Atom too, albeit for a brief period.
VSCode is more like a go-betyeen a fully fledged IDE and a pure code editor - it provides many of the utilities, via extensions, that a full IDE does, but not all of them.
You're right, it is - I'm not religious about it, I just prefer one editor over the current selection. Once it was Atom, it was also Notepad++, it's been Eclipse, and now it's VSCode.
spaghettiCodeArtisan ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 10:03:07 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)*
Edit: Even if we solve the RAM problem by buying more RAM, this doesn't solve the other performance issue of Electron applications - GUI latency and CPU requirements. VSCode's editing latency is pretty high, especially on larger projects. And yes, I tried disabling extensions to see if they are to blame, but not really, the editor is simply slow.
That's a completely different aspect. But ok let's talk about that. Does Sublime look significantly different on various OSes? I don't believe it does. I mean, window menus, file dialogs, etc. look different on each OS, but the same is true for VSCode.
invisi1407 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 12:00:28 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I haven't experienced that yet - I've been working on both a modern 8 core/32 GB machine and an old dual core laptop, and there is a difference in performance, but I haven't had any editing latency. Perhaps my projects are smaller than yours.
I haven't used Sublime Text, so I can't say.
idobai ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 12:42:08 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)*
Perhaps you just got used to the lag.
Latency has almost nothing to do with project size. Check out this benchmark to learn about mainstream editors' latency.
In your other comment you said:
then you say:
Avoid comparisons without experience.
bmarkovic ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 17:04:46 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I've moved to VS.Code after years of being a Sublime user and agree with him. VS.Code does a lot more out of the box, does all the stuff I like about Sublime right, and other things better. By the time I add enough extensions to Sublime for my workflow they generally drag its performance down seriously.
Anecdotally, Sublime has been pretty slow and buggy for me on Linux XFCE for quite a while back now. I used it as my non-IDE editor for quick editing and config files but stalls and other bugs have made me move to Mousepad an Vim for that lately.
idobai ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 17:19:53 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
But vscode and atom are slower than most editors and if you start add stuff to them they can leak gigabytes, not just get slower a bit. I haven't used sublime in 3 years(never had performance problems, it was just a weak editor for me) but I tried vscode this year and it was a no-go for me.
bmarkovic ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 18:07:39 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
To be fair Code and Atom are not in the same league with regard to CPU and RAM utilization. Microsoft has done a great job there. I haven't witnessed gigabytes, but few hundred megabytes are normal for IDEs (and it's an IDE, just without the project ceremony).
My issues with Sublime only surfaced a year ago and only on my company Linux notebook (which has been running Xubuntu for that time).
idobai ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:28:04 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
They are absolutely in the same league. They're not in the league of sublime or np++ and definitely not in the league of emacs and vim.
They're not IDEs at all. They're editors with plugins. IDE = Integrated Development Environment; vscode and atom are more like Coding/Text Writing Tools.
Watch out for xfce - I liked that DE but it can lag and stutter like hell.
bmarkovic ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:43:58 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Done both. Instructions unclear.
Which parts of being an IDE does VS.Code lack? I'd love to adress that bit feature for feature. I don't miss anything from NetBeans or Eclipse or VS (the IDEs I've professionally used) and like the fact that a lot of the cruft isn't there.
Haven't had that experience with anything but ST for the 5 years I've been a Xubuntu user.
idobai ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 21:22:02 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Try to work on a project with a few million lines of code, emulate a few terminals, add plugins to enhance your workflow.
Like all of them - since it's just a text editor. Everything else is a plugin. Having plugins support won't turn an editor into an IDE.
That "cruft" which can make you significantly more productive is the difference between IDEs and editors.
Try gaming or watching things on HiDPI displays.
bmarkovic ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 21:44:48 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I use 30ish odd plug ins, I sometimes have two to four terminals running in Code but I do use proper terminal emulators for the rest of my work.
I don't really think millions of LOCs make much difference for quite a while in Code as I regularly patch and build large C codebases in Code for various reasons and didn't see much of a difference in responsiveness.
Now you are just weaseling out.
Precisely which features that would be?
I don't game, I do run three Full HD screens with XFCE. Often watch two different videos on two of them.
idobai ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:01:53 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I do all of my work in neovim including the usage of "proper" terminal emulators since neovim's terminal is very comfortable.
I was talking about resource usage, latency is already bad in electron-based editors. I'm curios about how much RAM vscode eats after loading a few files.
You just try to push vscode as an IDE when it clearly isn't one. Editors with plugin support != IDEs.
Precisely every feature in an IDE like intellij. Vscode doesn't have those features, instead it has plugins like all the other editors.
And you experience no stuttering, no screen tearing?
bmarkovic ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 10:02:18 on July 28, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
You obviously have very limited experience with both. It wasn't uncommon for NetBeans or Jetbrains IDEs to smash 2gigs of RAM. No one even thought about complaining about that. I've never seen that level of RAM usage with Code. I haven't bothered checking it with Eclipse.
The point being that it's not something you care about because it is a productivity boost.
I have the even better productivity in Code. I get the same stuff:
All of this for all languages i deal with. And trust me, be it Code or VS no one comes close to Microsoft in this stuff. Also:
I didn't use more than that in any IDE I've used, and with all this (some of it provided or boosted by plugins) it's still snappier and less of a resource hog than any of the Java based IDEs I used before, and much better integrated into Linux to boot.
What I particularly liked about both Sublime and Code is that organic transition you have from editing a few files to it being a project /workspace as opposed to the soul sucking wizard ceremony in traditional IDEs. Code greatly improved on the concept and is much smarter and better about it tho, with multiproject support, git integration, debugging integration and smarter shell/OS integration.
Few hundred megabytes is a small price to pay for that, especially given that it was never an issue to pay the equivalent or even much higher price for Jetbrains stuff, Eclipse or NetBeans or Monodevelop or VS on Windows etc.
No. There's a compositing wm in xfce for quite a while now. You do need to enable it. It's not animated circus like KDE or Gnome but it's pretty (when I theme it), resource friendly (leaving me more juice to run 100 Chrome tabs, Code, docker and lxc containers, which I need) and much, much less buggy than either of the two or Mate, or even Cinnamon. I can't be arsed to deal with tiling wms so xfce is perfect for me.
idobai ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 12:27:13 on July 28, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Well, that describes you better since you can't differentiate an editor from an IDE. You're either unhealthily hyped or you've never used an IDE or an editor properly.
Intellij and netbeans consumed like 1-1.2GB memory for me when I was working on 100K-1M LoC EE projects. Intellij usually consumed 5-800MB of RAM for smaller projecs for me but the most important things - like the latency and the performance - are and will be always better in intellij than in electron-based editors.
Because they're not just editors and they don't consume 2GB for average-sized projects.
Like most vscode/chrome/electron users, you probably forgot to sum the processes' ram usage and didn't really load anything large into them.
Yeah, I care more about performance and latency - which are worse in electron-based editors anyway.
No, you don't. You only get those for the languages which have server-based or commandline tooling. And if there are implementations for them then you can use them with any editor. It seems like vscode doesn't have anything special.
Those are just three basic features of an IDE - and you'll only get them if they're supported.
Stop the shilling, it wasn't ms who invented IDEs or extensible editors.
"superb" according to you but I've yet to see a more efficient way than git alias combos and vim diff.
Literally, the smallest things.
Any gui editor can do that - especially if it's browser-based one but you can have that by linking the markdown preview to your browser too.
What do you preview? Scripts? HTML? You know, those are basic things which are not the signs of advanced tooling at all.
Great point. So in summary, you've the things any editor can have.
So you've barely used any advanced IDE feature just the basic ones what you can get in any editor.
Try to use both with larger projects for a long time and you'll see the difference. Btw, no need to go that far since the performance and the latency will be worse for smaller projects too.
False, vscode can't even integrate with the look-and-feel.
Sounds like a cheap marketing pitch.
Absolutely useless feature.
Easy to implement. Unless if you want gui views but then it'll be very slow and will leak GBs of memory on larger projects(like gitkraken).
Yeah, can be done in any extensible editor if there's a server-based debugger.
You either have a shell or don't. I doubt that you can program the integrated terminal in vscode. And what "OS integration"?
It's not just the RAM - but the performance and the high latency too.
Because they can do more even with a bloated VM.
That compositor sucks. It won't prevent screen tearing at all. The only way to make it less of a problem is to use compton.
No, it's enabled by default.
You can disable the animations in KDE.
The new KDE plasma(neon edition) consumes less than xubuntu on startup.
IMO, they're all buggy af. At least, the screen tearing is not as bad in KDE as in xfce.
I did and the screen tearing is worse with them.
bmarkovic ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:29:32 on July 28, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
And yet again you failed to mention a SINGLE feature I'm supposedly missing after I've spent over a decade writing enterprise software in various IDEs. I'm done wasting time with this.
idobai ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:51:54 on July 28, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
If you'd have any experience with IDEs then you'd know that there are advanced features which are required for THAT specific task you're doing on a daily basis like ui designers, live runtime patchers, advanced application previews etc.
And if a language's ecosystem has tools for code completion, debugging and refactoring then those could be used with any editor - and using those tools won't turn an editor into an IDE. An IDE is an integrated development environment and an editor with the features you mentioned are just the basic parts of it.
Now I won't have to listen to the shilling anymore. It's not like you enumerated any reason why vscode was needed at all.
Btw, I tested vscode with a simple 10kb json file(7 processes for a single open file?!) - just the scrolling increased the RAM by 2-5mb every second and it used 10% CPU. Neovim only needed 1-2%CPU while its memory consumption stayed still. If just simple scrolling can increase the RAM usage then I think it has a bigger problem with RAM than java-based IDEs. Plus a freshly installed editor with no plugins shouldn't consume 350MB of RAM(+ increase by scrolling lol) with a 10kb json file and 4 other files around 1kb.
bmarkovic ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 16:20:51 on July 30, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I don't need this, never did, usually it's implemented in unmaintainable way, but sure, ill give you this.
I have no idea what this is supposed to mean, especially outside desktop UI work
This is such an antipattern (using an IDE for that) that I don't even.
Yet not one seems to really provide. Sure they often do have a badly kludged up bunch of these but no UX or any workflow around them.
Btw nice touch with the "Microsoft shill" bit. Very mature.
[deleted] ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 18:27:25 on July 30, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
bmarkovic ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 12:20:09 on July 31, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
No, what I mean is that I don't do desktop UI software, which is where this was a thing. And when I did, literally every one of these generated horribly messy code that was pretty unmaintainable outside the graphical UI designer. And, foam around the mouth all you want, but Microsoft was on top of the game in this particular area, especially once Borland (the undisputed king of IDEs) hit the shitter and MS cherry picked their best engineers. Or what, you'll convince me that it's Oracle Forms or that joke called Xcode is where it's at?
I understand what it is: name one example outside desktop (or eventually mobile) UI work where this is used - IOW why should I care?
Any automation that is triggered from IDE and not a separate scriptable, stand-alone CI/CD environment is an antipattern.
I've actually tested and used quite a few ides and editors prior to settling with Code. It's the best tool for the work I do atm, if the work should change perhaps another environment will suit me better. I'm good at context switching, quick at zoning out and easy about relearning shortcuts and other muscle memory stuff which I why I never slaved to any environment.
It's not about "having a GUI" (others tick that box too) but seamlessness of execution/implementation. Or you think that it being the fastest growing development environment is all shills and marketing?
Says the guy who is selling the antipattern of running integration/deployment automation from IDE's UI as a sine qua non feature. Rich.
invisi1407 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 17:24:34 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Could be - research on the Internet seems to point to it having a similar editing latency of Atom and the likes.
I was replying to /u/spaghettiCodeArtisan who said:
Emphasis is mine. That's why I mentioned project size.
Alright, if you want to be pedantic - I have used Sublime Text briefly on Windows and I didn't like it. I went to Atom after a week, and went back to Notepad++.
idobai ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:21:13 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I hope not because I used atom as a secondary editor for a few months(was curious about the hype back then) and the editing latency was terrible.
Well, atom and vscode are almost the same and if you like features, flat learning curve and care about cross platform support then why would you go back to np++? It sounds really weird for me. I used np++ too when I was on windows and only as a secondary editor.
spaghettiCodeArtisan ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:19:49 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Yes, that's possible, I don't know what caused it. I just know with some projects the latency in VSCode is ok-ish and in some other projects it's bad. I thought project size was the cause but it may very well be that the problem is something else, I don't know.
idobai ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:29:13 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Maybe it's the length of files or the syntax plugin.
BCosbyDidNothinWrong ยท 66 points ยท Posted at 22:20:30 on July 26, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
There are thousands of cross platform apps that are 99% the same source code for every platform. If you think electron is the only way to make a cross platform program you are completely out of your mind.
MyPhallicObject ยท -83 points ยท Posted at 23:20:50 on July 26, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Here are a few facts:
Miss me with your shit.
BCosbyDidNothinWrong ยท 49 points ยท Posted at 03:00:19 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Says the webdev to the low level programmer.
toqy ยท -7 points ยท Posted at 12:14:34 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Oh fuck a low level programmer!
MyPhallicObject ยท -97 points ยท Posted at 04:13:58 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Web developers know better than low level programmers, hence "low level"
Web developers work on million dollar enterprise projects with methodologies like agile. Low level programmers make Arduino lights change their color.
Talk to me when you've graduated from pointers.
Talran ยท 53 points ยท Posted at 04:21:35 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Someone's never been a real programmer before, yeowch.
BitLooter ยท 73 points ยท Posted at 04:21:21 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Low level programmers wrote the Linux kernel, the servers, and most of the software that allows your job to even exist. Don't be an ass.
DogzOnFire ยท 31 points ยท Posted at 09:28:37 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)*
It reads like a business graduate who took a multimedia module once that had a couple of hours of programming involved. And by "programming" I mean Squarespace. It's like if Donald Trump got into webdev.
People like Alan Cox obviously left Red Hat for Intel to continue low level engineering because the high level stuff was too difficult for him. He speaks like he doesn't even understand what low level means. Either that or he's being facetious. "High level means good, right?"
JimJohnJoeJames ยท 25 points ยท Posted at 14:55:54 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
You are absolutely right. No one uses low level languages to run multi million dollar equipment like rockets, or airplanes, or satellites. I'm pretty sure all of that is written by superior 10xer web developers who have outgrown obsolete languages like 'C' (pointers? More like point to that sweet sweet electron app am I right?)
So yeah people! Talk to me when you've moved on from microcontrollers or microprocessors. Just use a Mac Book Pro with Visual Studio to run your rockets! Praise Agile. We Are All Individuals!
shermanramni ยท 11 points ยท Posted at 00:12:02 on July 28, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Kids, this is your brain on webshit.
15rthughes ยท 14 points ยท Posted at 16:02:56 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Yeah Iโm sure that 8 week node.js boot camp you took makes you more qualified than the developers who wrote the code to make your web app actually interact with the processor.
tudda ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 20:00:36 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
This is so cringe-worthy, and wrong.
PrimozDelux ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 08:01:07 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
What a story
Elezium ยท 33 points ยท Posted at 22:21:15 on July 26, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
The issue is that all Desktop app will end using Electron. So say you have 6-7 Electron app... Well... You're not too far from the usual 8Gb RAM of most people. So yup, at some point, memory will be an issue.
Kasuist ยท 29 points ยท Posted at 02:27:38 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Discord, Slack (multiple teams), GitKraken, Xcode, iOS Simulator, web browser, collectively use up 10 GB of ram on my Mac. Good thing I have 16, but come on.
AwesomeBantha ยท 16 points ยท Posted at 03:01:58 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I have an 8GB MBP and it really wheezes when running Slack + GitHub Desktop + WebStorm + Chrome + Brackets.
Never mind building an Electron app, that thing sends the CPU up to 400%.
I have 32GB on my Hackintosh and would switch over right away if only I could yet my GPU drivers working...
[deleted] ยท 15 points ยท Posted at 05:57:45 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
And yet an app using 3GB of ram is going to be far slower than one using 3MB.
invisi1407 ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 06:33:15 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Discord is not slow, though. Slack is. I'm. Sure if they made Discord using native frameworks on the respective platforms, they would get a faster app with less memory footprint, but it would also be a lot more work and maintenance of the code bases.
[deleted] ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 11:55:42 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Well, React Native for desktop is a thing now. It's good on Windows because Microsoft keeps it up to date. I suppose MS keeps Electron going now too, since they purchased GitHub.
The MacOS version of RN seems to be kept fairly up to date by its developer, too.
There's also a React Native port that renders using QT and works on Windows, Linux, and MacOS.
So Discord could potentially use RN for *all* of their apps, both mobile and desktop.
Using RN desktop is probably more risky than using Electron, though. I think the RN desktop ports are more likely to be forgotten or abandoned than Electron is.
Holy_City ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 02:59:12 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
If you work on software that has a justifiably high memory hit and/or require running multiple tools that do too, you really can't justify using a chat client that eats up an excessive amount of memory.
Not to mention those of us who own laptops you can just stuff another 8GB stick of RAM onto the mobo. Even if I feel it's justified to run to the RAM store because my chat client is obese.
Talran ยท 16 points ยท Posted at 04:23:21 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Lots of server software, even though they have "tons of ram" really need to actually be optimized into something not webshit, and the insinuation otherwise (not by you) is hilarious.
Talran ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 04:20:15 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Pretty far from the best, it's just the easiest and easiest to hire for because of SV memes.
SimplySerenity ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 03:01:29 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Why should they care? 99% of their users don't care.
BCosbyDidNothinWrong ยท 24 points ยท Posted at 03:05:28 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)*
Is everything in your house or apartment perfect? If not, why don't you move out?
I think users tolerate terrible software because they have to, not because they don't care. Look at the rise of uTorrent before it was ruined - super small, super fast, and not only ate all other torrent client's market share, it took torrenting to new heights by drawing in new people due to how much it hit its target.
SimplySerenity ยท -2 points ยท Posted at 03:55:14 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
You're still thinking too much like a programmer. Nobody is forcing you or anyone else to use Discord.
Unless you want to make the argument that you have to use it because everyone else is. But what about those early adopters? They chose to use the platform despite it using Electron because they don't care.
I think performant software is great, but it takes many more man hours to create and maintain. It's just not worth it in many cases.
i_spot_ads ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 10:56:12 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
nobody really cares tbh, people just like to complain
lanzaio ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 03:09:11 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Because you don't understand 10th grade economics enough to understand why a company would hire a couple web devs to make a quick React app instead of hiring a dozen C++ engineers to make a QT app that looks like shit with blurry rendered fonts and GUI elements.
jcelerier ยท 29 points ยท Posted at 05:05:38 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
yeah I guess as a mostly single guy I can build a whole DAW in Qt that does not look blurry but the ~100 engineers at Slack would have trouble with a chat app
lanzaio ยท -13 points ยท Posted at 06:04:17 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
A. Your team page literally lists 13 people including many designers and engineers.
B. Has your company even gone anywhere? Your twitter page is 6 years old and has 87 followers. You have a QT project with probably dozens of users.
You're a perfect example of the reason why Electron exists. It takes less effort, money and time with less talented engineers and designers to make a more functional and more visually appealing product with Electron than it does with QT.
jcelerier ยท 25 points ยท Posted at 06:21:14 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
https://github.com/OSSIA/score/graphs/contributors ; I wrote the near-integrality of the current codebase which is the part relevant to "why a company would hire a couple web devs to make a quick React app instead of hiring a dozen C++ engineers".
Besides, I doubt the used tech makes a difference for designers since they work in Illustrator / $DESIGNTOOL and not Electron or Qt or whatever.
it's not a company, but a free software project centered around contemporary art - besides this being a fairly niche "market", we don't put a lot of attention to social media. I don't know if anyone even still have the passwords to this twitter account to be honest... what matters is that there are are installations out there that run on this. Of course you have less art installations in the world than Discord users, but that's completely besides the point.
BCosbyDidNothinWrong ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 13:05:07 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Listen pal, QT does not have blurry fonts.
(Also the advantage and economics are not lost on me, it's more about a program gaining traction but optimization never taking place)
codemonkey14 ยท -8 points ยท Posted at 04:48:01 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
You're a dick about it, but you're right. Hardware is cheap compared to development costs.
i9srpeg ยท 18 points ยท Posted at 08:41:57 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
If you have 1M users, that's 1M sticks of RAM your users need to buy. Not cheap at all.
cowinabadplace ยท -8 points ยท Posted at 12:13:18 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Slack is valued at billions of dollars. The market is hot so if you wrote competing better software youโd win. Go get โem.
As a user, I donโt give a shit. Iโd happily give my IDE 8 GB, my browser 1 GB, and my chat app 1 GB if theyโll do the job well, and they do so I donโt care. I have lots of RAM. Working software is way more useful than RAM. Having formatted code in my chat app is way more useful than RAM. Having integration with my other tools is way more important than RAM.
GenericsMotors ยท 11 points ยท Posted at 13:33:03 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)*
LOL, they're probably grossly overvalued, like a lot of other "disruptors" in Silicon Valley.
I also find the suggestion that the best quality software will always win hilarious, because that's a load of bullshit.
I have 16GB on my work machine and between multiple IDE instances, a DB server, profiling tools that are very CPU/RAM intensive, and other background processes, I couldn't give two shits about formatted code in a chat app if it slurps up a full precious GB of RAM.
cowinabadplace ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 17:08:26 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I have 32 GB. I don't understand why you'd skimp on a work machine. It's a rounding error.
Chat is definitely one area where the best app has won. There have been numerous competitors in the space and Slack has overturned every incumbent. I was sceptical in the beginning but I'm a believer now. Terrific tool.
GenericsMotors ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 17:40:37 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I'm not skimping, the machine belongs to the company I work for. 16GB isn't low end either.
What of folks working in developing countries? Not everyone has the ability to waste money on more ram just to run a resource hog of a chat app on their already constrained dev environments.
cowinabadplace ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 21:24:10 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Yeah if you have no control over that, I guess it does suck.
SpaceToad ยท -4 points ยท Posted at 08:42:31 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
How ancient is your pc that discord runs slow for you? Itโs a much better experience than any of the other clients Iโve used for video chat and screen sharing.
crescentroon ยท 12 points ยท Posted at 06:49:56 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
this is a stupid meme. i can run discord on my chromebook.
daymanAAaah ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 18:19:55 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Running it on a 4gb MacBook here with no issues.
I really wonder the people who circlejerk about RN and Electronโs day job is. A startup doesnโt have all the time and resources to build native for every platform.
๐๏ธ arushofblood ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 23:26:03 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
It sounds like you have very strong opinions about the performance of our client! As you seem to be an expert, might I suggest https://discordapp.com/jobs :)
topher_r ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 14:04:49 on July 29, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Open up your API for custom clients and watch everyone put desktop Discord to shame. Or perhaps that's why you don't allow custom clients.
๐๏ธ arushofblood ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 16:22:33 on July 29, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
If you have better ideas about building our clients, or you want to open up our API, might I suggest clicking that jobs link? Then you can get paid to put us to shame!
topher_r ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 16:48:37 on July 29, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
That's a bit of a weak deflection. You know what external devs want, why not do it? Besides, I have a pretty comfortable job at the moment :)
๐๏ธ arushofblood ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 16:55:35 on July 29, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I donโt think itโs a weak deflection. Discordโs product is fundamentally the client + service. With only less than 50 engineers supporting our millions of users, we canโt satisfy everybody, so of course some people are going to be upset that we donโt service their exact needs. I feel very lucky that I work on a product that people feel strongly enough about that they would continually try to defend their viewpoint on the Internet. If you care that much, why not leave your job and come here? Thatโs what I did :P Discordโs product didnโt fit my exact use case, so I joined the team.
topher_r ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 16:58:16 on July 29, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
But the thing preventing us writing a custom client is your terms of service, nothing technical. Enough of the API is available for anyone to do it, so the limitation seems mostly arbitrary.
๐๏ธ arushofblood ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 17:05:05 on July 29, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
No, the thing preventing us from allowing custom clients is 2 things:
1) we donโt have a public API and an API designed around public use. Iโm certain that you and I would agree that the mechanics of twitterโs public API and private API are different. If you feel strongly about launching a public API, please apply :)
2) Discordโs fundamental product is BOTH the UI experience and the server side processing. To say that we are just one is a simply a misunderstanding of our business. Do you play video games? Do you expect to be able to connect to StarCraft without Blizzardโs meticulously crafted UI? So I fail to see how weโre any different here. However, our clients are FAR from perfect. I can tell you at least 10 major iOS bugs right now, and many more missing features. We have a small team for many reasons, but the drawback to it is that we cannot make every single person happy. If you have ideas about improving the performance of our clients, or you want to optimize our clients so that they perform better in certain use cases, once again, please apply :)
ThirdEncounter ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 02:44:54 on July 28, 2018 ยท (Permalink)*
I have strong opinions, too! May I apply as well?
๐๏ธ arushofblood ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 17:26:02 on July 28, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Yes, please! We are always looking for more excellent engineers :)
spacejack2114 ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 01:29:24 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Chrome/ium -> More Tools -> Create Shortcut
Why don't all the people complaining about Electron apps do this?
I use about two native apps, the rest are all the same web apps everyone complains about but I only have one Electron app installed and that's VSCode.
lanzaio ยท -5 points ยท Posted at 00:00:39 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
This circle jerk is fucking pathetic.
[deleted] ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 09:36:47 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)*
[deleted]
[deleted] ยท -3 points ยท Posted at 21:28:49 on July 26, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
BCosbyDidNothinWrong ยท 24 points ยท Posted at 21:50:25 on July 26, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
You think Bill Cosby did nothing wrong? He's one the most prolific serial rapists in history you sick fuck.
GrayGhost18 ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 22:07:53 on July 26, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
DAMN. Hit em with that turn around.
IronBlock ยท -10 points ยท Posted at 00:35:55 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Haha GOTTEM because Electron has a YYYUUUUUGE memory footprint, right? Did I get the joke? It's huge, right?
Talran ยท 13 points ยท Posted at 04:25:45 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Like it isn't even a joke, it's a disease on modern software development practices.
IronBlock ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 17:23:35 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
So how do you feel about Docker?
AwesomeBantha ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 02:58:56 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I just started Electron today, my app is already 128MB large...
Any general tips on reducing the file size?
GenericsMotors ยท 11 points ยท Posted at 13:37:29 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
rm -rfthe project folder, problem solved :)oorza ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 15:32:20 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
The time you save using Electron will be paid back, and more, trying to get your application to work in a way that won't kill users' computers. Just use a more mature, performant GUI toolkit.
scumbaggio ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 19:31:36 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Obviously I'd like lighter-weight software too, but the alternatives to discord (Teamspeak and Mumble) are really unintuitive to use. Personally I'd prefer a simple-to-use electron app over a convoluted light-weight app. If a better-designed UI is easier to accomplish using electron, I'll take it.
oorza ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 20:32:58 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
My point wasn't that it wasn't easier to get shit done in Electron, it obviously is. But building a UI is the first step in a long road to having a functional GUI application, and if you figure the time spent implementing the core logic of the application is roughly the same, you're trading time up front getting the UI assembled for time on the back-end making the application perform well. If you are happy with the performance of Electron, then it's a good trade, but if you are gonna wind up in a situation where people start bitching about your app and you want to make them happy, the time saved up front is gonna come back when you have to reimplement things in native GUI code, profile your application and refactor parts of it, etc. Again, if you don't care about the performance implications, it's probably a good decision to use, but it seems more and more applications are built with it and then you see blog posts about the Herculean efforts developers have had to take to make it perform as to users' expectations.
scumbaggio ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:37:17 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
That's a good point, it is a trade-off and it's different for each project
AwesomeBantha ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:18:28 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
No, it won't.
I am making demo software that will be run on several expo/conference screens. I already have most of the components built in HTML/Vue so there's no point reinventing everything in another framework I don't know when it's pretty easy just to port stuff over.
Even if we made it a web app (which is not likely or convenient since we would have to host different sites for different clients, and internet access is spotty), it would still be run in Chrome or Chromium so overall the impact wouldn't be too bad.
I don't know of any other options short of NWJS, which seems to have a lot less support.
netsrak ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 21:21:01 on July 26, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Do you think we could ever hide servers we are in to save some space on memory?
Eirenarch ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 22:08:07 on July 26, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I just want to say that I am super impressed with Discord (using it on Windows desktop only since I am still a Windows Phone user). I never believed such a dynamic and flashy (images, animations, links) app can be built with Electron while staying responsive. Slack, which is essentially the same feature set is visibly slower to the point where I can see it drawing components on the screen and I am in many more Discord channels than Slack channels and there are more users and activity in my Discord channels. I don't know how you do that magic but keep doing it.
P.S. please add an option to send a message with ctrl+enter instead of enter. I need this badly.
jiffier ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 07:36:15 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Fair enough. Now, if 10 years from now you can still say the same, I'll jump to Electron.
enygmata ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:56:41 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Why are you happy about that?
๐๏ธ arushofblood ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 00:04:43 on July 28, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Sorry, not sure which part you're asking about, so I'll try to answer as best I can understand.
I'm happy about Electron because it allows us to bundle a native app without sacrificing developer speed. Our millions of users can attest that the performance drawbacks of Electron is not significant enough to impact their usage and ability to run CPU-intensive video games while running our app. There are a lot of other Electron-specific gains I can't speak to because I'm not an Electron developer :)
I am happy with React because it has ushered in a fascinating renaissance in front end development inspired by the amazing work the FP/FRP community has already been doing for decades.
I am happy with code share because it means I have less work to do :P
dancemethis ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:04:02 on July 26, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
And user data and metadata.
NiveaGeForce ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 07:35:12 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)*
When will you guys start threating modern Windows as a first-class citizen, and use React.Native there too? There are also millions of Windows tablet users that would appreciate that. Or at the very least, give us a PWA.
This is one of the few reasons why I rarely use Discord.
FINDarkside ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 13:50:51 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I don't think PWA would be any better, possibly even worse. It would still need a browser to run, and that's where the Electron overhead comes from. If I open Discord in browser, it actually seems to use more memory than the electron app.
NiveaGeForce ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 14:34:53 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)*
It's not just about memory, but OS integration and idle overhead, since a PWAs on WinRT/UWP can be suspended in the background.
https://blogs.windows.com/windowsexperience/2018/05/24/announcing-windows-10-insider-preview-build-17677/
Edge is very resource efficient on Windows. That said, the best option would be React Native.
zarandysofia ยท -36 points ยท Posted at 20:39:29 on July 26, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
At the expense of user experience. Corruption at its core.
thenumberless ยท 32 points ยท Posted at 20:51:43 on July 26, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
โCorruption,โ really?
Eirenarch ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 22:33:23 on July 26, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
This is another name for JavaScript.
zarandysofia ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 23:37:07 on July 26, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
All the web.
mrkcsc ยท 27 points ยท Posted at 20:50:31 on July 26, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Like most things in software - everything is a trade off.
Using Electron allowed us to move super fast and get off the ground with a very small team in the early days (and we are still quite small all things considering) and focus on other core user facing product features.
That being said, from day 1 we have always deeply cared about performance as a team and (in my opinion) Discord is quite performant (try quickly resizing dragging the window) and not distinguishable as an Electron app without close inspection.
keepitnoqui ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 21:44:59 on July 26, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
The only other Electron application Iโve used is Atom, which runs horrendously slow on everything Iโve used it on. Confidently agree Discord has found a way to make it perfectly fast and snappy enough.
invisi1407 ยท 10 points ยท Posted at 22:12:08 on July 26, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Ditch Atom and join the VSCode club. Much faster editor and super awesome too.
DerNalia ยท -3 points ยท Posted at 23:06:07 on July 26, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Vscode and atom are both garbage compared to vim
invisi1407 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 05:51:56 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Bla bla bla, religion. You have your preference, I have mine, others have theirs.
LewsTherinKinslayer3 ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 03:39:55 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Bruh vim sucks compared to ED.
DerNalia ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 08:55:03 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
what's ED?
Elite: Dangerous?
LewsTherinKinslayer3 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 11:57:53 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Ed is the standard editor.
https://www.gnu.org/fun/jokes/ed-msg.html
JAPH ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 21:27:04 on July 26, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Can't say I've ever had any UX issues with Discord.
mrkcsc ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 20:04:21 on July 26, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
This is correct but not really related to React Native!
[deleted] ยท -6 points ยท Posted at 20:15:31 on July 26, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
๐๏ธ arushofblood ยท 11 points ยท Posted at 20:22:55 on July 26, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
React and React Native certainly have their drawbacks, as we've detailed a lot in the blog post. However, we think that the pros of RN (speed of development and iteration, for myself, mostly) more than makes up for its drawbacks :)
BCosbyDidNothinWrong ยท 15 points ยท Posted at 20:52:46 on July 26, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
So the pros for you make up for the cons to the user?
๐๏ธ arushofblood ยท 21 points ยท Posted at 21:03:58 on July 26, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Certainly there are tradeoffs. However I would say that our app adoption suggests that at the very least, most of our users do not find that the cons that you point out terrible enough that they would abandon our app :)
BCosbyDidNothinWrong ยท -5 points ยท Posted at 21:16:12 on July 26, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Congratulations on making an application that sends text over the internet and just barely avoids being so bloated and slow that your users would rather isolate themselves from other people than use it.
๐๏ธ arushofblood ยท 22 points ยท Posted at 21:24:58 on July 26, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Actually we support shit posts, love notes, gifs, mp3 files, emojis, and even bitmoji too!
BCosbyDidNothinWrong ยท -21 points ยท Posted at 21:48:54 on July 26, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
That's telling that you consider comments about ridiculous bloat and performance to be shit posts.
PikaTools ยท 14 points ยท Posted at 00:54:52 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
They were saying they support you
BCosbyDidNothinWrong ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 02:53:23 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
It wasn't exactly subtle
gbalduzzi ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 21:18:45 on July 26, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
If it's so simple, why I know discord but I don't know your messaging application?
BCosbyDidNothinWrong ยท 15 points ยท Posted at 21:52:59 on July 26, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean. Do you think that I need to write a chat program to prove that discord is bloated and slow, or do you think that because discord is popular, that must mean that it is not bloated and slow?
[deleted] ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 23:12:06 on July 26, 2018 ยท (Permalink)*
[deleted]
Kasuist ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 03:18:03 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
It doesnโt really though. When you have a product that is the best at X people will use it no matter what, even if it falls short in other areas.
Itโs not that people donโt care. You just have to read through the comments to see here that they do. Itโs that there isnโt much better alternatives out there.
Using Facebook as an example. Lots of people complain about it, but until a better alternative comes along, people will just put up with the privacy issues.
spacejack2114 ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 01:32:32 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Yes, in fact, you do after all that big talk.
BCosbyDidNothinWrong ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 02:54:48 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
There are already dozens of chat apps programs created over the last three decades that aren't bloated and slow.
spacejack2114 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 03:19:52 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Which obviously don't have any of the features that anyone from this century wants - including you, apparently.
ComputerScienceDoggo ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 21:28:54 on July 26, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Perhaps he uses another messenger.
Jethro82 ยท 9 points ยท Posted at 20:59:54 on July 26, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
What are the react native "cons to the user" that you're referencing?
BCosbyDidNothinWrong ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 21:16:53 on July 26, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I think it's more on the electron side of things.
[deleted] ยท -4 points ยท Posted at 22:52:18 on July 26, 2018 ยท (Permalink)*
[deleted]
Devirichu ยท 35 points ยท Posted at 10:15:38 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)*
There must be some kind of input missing fr
Blocks_ ยท 27 points ยท Posted at 14:59:23 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
It's so funny to me that it's not some weird Unicode that crashes Discord. It's "ah rarissa sag".
CakeOnceAYear ยท 9 points ยท Posted at 14:49:48 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Is there anything significant about that string?
Devirichu ยท 18 points ยท Posted at 15:40:47 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)*
There must be some kind of input missing fr
ReallyAmused ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 00:59:31 on July 28, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I can't reproduce this bug. I wonder if it's with spell-checking. Have you tried turning that off?
ThirdEncounter ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 02:46:58 on July 28, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
...and then back on?
Devirichu ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 08:13:17 on July 28, 2018 ยท (Permalink)*
There must be some kind of input missing fr
ReallyAmused ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 09:25:47 on July 28, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Unfortunately, we only support 10.10+: https://support.discordapp.com/hc/en-us/articles/213491697-What-are-the-OS-system-requirements-for-Discord-
:(
Devirichu ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 09:32:01 on July 28, 2018 ยท (Permalink)*
There must be some kind of input missing fr
Devirichu ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 11:07:43 on July 28, 2018 ยท (Permalink)*
There must be some kind of input missing fr
ReallyAmused ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 17:36:45 on July 28, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
The weird thing is that we use NSSpellChecker, and as far as I can tell, it should be supported on 10.9... https://developer.apple.com/documentation/appkit/nsspellchecker
samjmckenzie ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 12:51:31 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
You should probably report this with their bug reporter or their equivalent of that.
Devirichu ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 13:04:18 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)*
There must be some kind of input missing fr
samjmckenzie ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 14:50:07 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
https://support.discordapp.com/hc/en-us/articles/115000465492-How-to-Report-Bugs
They provide 3 different ways to report bugs. The best one seems to be to join their official tester server where bugs will be reviewed by "bug hunters". It's not a public issue tracker, but it should do.
oorza ยท 20 points ยท Posted at 15:34:15 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
"How not to get bug reports from your users by making it difficult" 101
samjmckenzie ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 15:37:23 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Sending an email really isn't that difficult.
oorza ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 17:49:38 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
It's significantly harder if you (as the user) want to track progress, want confirmation your bug was accepted, need to interface with the engineer fixing the bug, or don't want to expose your email address to the service. It's significantly harder if you (as the engineer) want to inform the user of progress, need to interface with the user reporting the bug, need to get the reporter to confirm a fix, etc.
There's more to reporting issues than sending a note down a mine shaft, never to be heard from again.
๐๏ธ arushofblood ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 18:01:57 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Actually, if you join our Bug Hunters server you can see our *public* bug tracker. They do not go into an abyss, we have two people full time and a bunch of community volunteers managing this community. As an iOS dev at least 40% of my team each week is spent paying attention to and engaging with this community. It's thanks to these Bug Hunters that we can ship so many apps safely and quickly :)
samjmckenzie ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 18:04:10 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
All of those things would be nice to have, but that wouldn't stop me from reporting a bug (and I doubt it stops most of their users from doing it).
You can use one of the other two options that were listed.
PS: Someone from Discord just replied to one of the comments saying that you can track the progress of the bug in their bug hunters channel.
Devirichu ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:15:45 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)*
There must be some kind of input missing fr
๐๏ธ arushofblood ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:22:49 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Hi there! We do have a public issue tracker. It is located within our Bug Hunters community https://support.discordapp.com/hc/en-us/articles/115000465492-How-to-Report-Bugs). I do not manager the Bug Hunters so I can't speak to exactly why it seems "hidden" behind a public community but my guess is that we need the guarantee and proof that someone will do, at the very least, the work of joining the community and reading the FAQs before reporting things. However, there is no requirement that you engage in this community in order to submit bugs. We just have a system that is centralized and works well for us, and yes, is 100% public and transparent.
๐๏ธ arushofblood ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 18:03:08 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Hi there! Our public issue tracker is located within the "Bug Hunters" community linked to by /u/samjmckenzie (thanks!). That is the best place to get issues reported and triaged, and you will be able to track the progress of your issue there.
tdifen ยท 12 points ยท Posted at 20:18:44 on July 26, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
So are they using React Native only for IOS? I'm not a React Native dev but I was under the impression that it worked well enough in Android to be fine for production. What is the alternative? Just build a native app?
๐๏ธ arushofblood ยท 36 points ยท Posted at 20:23:41 on July 26, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Yep, only in iOS. Our Android app is in Kotlin :)
valtism ยท 11 points ยท Posted at 23:43:01 on July 26, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
What is the benefit of using react native if not for cross platform?
๐๏ธ arushofblood ยท 19 points ยท Posted at 23:50:18 on July 26, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
We do use React Native cross platform, the distinction here is that we share code between our Desktop app and our iOS app.
Jaycuse ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 01:10:16 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I would argue that using react native cross platform, and sharing js/react component code are two different things. It sounds like you share some code but from what you are saying you are just using react native for ios. Unless I misunderstood something.
๐๏ธ arushofblood ยท 11 points ยท Posted at 03:18:59 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I think traditionally when people think of a "React" app these things are included:
In our apps the last 4 pieces are all shared, the only one that isn't is the first.
Jaycuse ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 07:37:20 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
React and react native are not the same thing.
[deleted] ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 09:15:34 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)*
[deleted]
[deleted] ยท -7 points ยท Posted at 10:00:45 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
oorza ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 15:35:01 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
You're trying to be an annoying pedant and failing.
Eirenarch ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 22:18:24 on July 26, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Isn't it possible to use React Native for desktop Windows to speed things up?
๐๏ธ arushofblood ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 22:30:15 on July 26, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
We use React on Desktop, which has similar fundamental principles. Our common libraries are agnostic to either platform such that we can share all of our business logic (Redux/Flux stores, action creators, data fetching, etc) but all View logic is custom.
oorza ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 15:35:52 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I think what he meant was: can you use
react-native-windowsto generate a native UWP/WPF app instead of using electron?๐๏ธ arushofblood ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 16:08:38 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
We have not explored this option and if is not on our road map to do so. Our desktop electron app and web app are backed by the same react components and it seems unlikely we would change that.
oorza ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 16:13:07 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
You would only have to change the innermost view layer, everything else should be share-able between the other react codebases.
occz ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:52:14 on July 26, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Are you planning on going full react native or are you content with developing and maintaining the versions separately?
๐๏ธ arushofblood ยท 17 points ยท Posted at 21:00:02 on July 26, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
We will continue to re-evaluate using RN with Android. As of right now the performance on Android isn't good enough on low end devices, particularly because we support a very wide range of Android devices whereas our iOS users tend to lag only 1 or 2 hardware generations behind. To be honest it is hard to say -- my gut feeling is that adding React Native to an existing native app is pretty difficult, and we are pretty happy as is maintaining both apps separately.
duckwizzle ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 04:28:18 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)*
Hmm Kotlin. What made you choose that over Java?
Edit: what's with the downvotes? I was just asking a question not being snarky...
[deleted] ยท 15 points ยท Posted at 21:15:31 on July 26, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Insane that alone two people can build and maintain the iOS app! I'm very impressed!
Excalibur457 ยท 17 points ยท Posted at 04:44:53 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
It's impressive but it shows. The iOS app lacks quite a few features that make desktop great.
๐๏ธ arushofblood ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 17:28:09 on July 28, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
The sad truth of being a 2 person team :( but if youโre interested in helping us be even more impressive, might I suggest checking out discordapp.com/jobs??
Excalibur457 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 17:48:52 on July 28, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I would love to work with you guys but I don't know much full stack and am not really interested in web dev. If you're hiring interns/temps/junior devs I'd gladly come aboard though :D
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:07:53 on July 28, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
What development do you do, if not web dev? Just curious.
Excalibur457 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:05:49 on July 28, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Currently I'm in mobile but not really passionate about it. I've been trying to get into blockchain/DLT dev, been looking into Solidity a lot lately. Doing something backend or relates to software architecting would be ideal for me.
geordano ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 00:23:01 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Just curious, I guess when you guys started off, Flutter wasn't a thing, but did you take a look at it lately? any opinion you could drawn?
mrkcsc ยท 12 points ยท Posted at 01:34:02 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
We think Flutter is pretty cool but since our main app codebase is already written in React, writing our mobile apps in flutter would not let us leverage code sharing between that primary codebase.
It would let us leverage code sharing between the mobile code bases but for us thats less compelling that the allure of not having to re-write business logic :)
zippoxer ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 14:01:57 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Do you think that if Flutter for the desktop was a viable option, you would've favored it over React?
I know that Flutter for the desktop is a work in progress right now.
mrkcsc ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 17:50:28 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Possibly - while it's hard to say for sure - if Flutter for Desktop is very compelling and one could turn back time to before we had written any code - it might be a great tool for the job.
The only particular hesitation I might express is that Google does not have a great track record of sticking with their projects/initiatives and I would be concerned that in one or two years they shift focus away from the project in favor of something else.
Most of our decisions - and I think this is a good approach generally - are made in the context of what already exists, what the other trade-offs are and also what interests those who will be building the products and features :)
swervesf ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 15:28:56 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Wow, really cool to see a blog post about react native! I hope Discord does more in the future because this really helps as a somewhat new react-native dev.
Just saw your job postings & I wish you had internship roles; seems like a pretty great environment for devs
geodel ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 00:26:47 on July 28, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Huh, as if they could have done the right thing and develop app with native OS APIs.
๐๏ธ arushofblood ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 00:35:44 on July 28, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
React Native is simply a framework around Native OS APIs :) All "React Native Views" are actually Native views. So yes, thank you, we are doing the right thing!
geodel ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 00:40:47 on July 28, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
So there is no Java script no Electron involved anywhere?
ReAn1985 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 01:46:02 on July 28, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Electron, no. The JavaScript orchestrates the construction and manipulation of native iOS ui elements. It is not html.
๐๏ธ arushofblood ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 17:24:13 on July 28, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
There is JavaScript in the iOS app. JS acts as a โwrapperโ of sorts around the Native APIs (more complex than that of course, but there are blog posts better at explaining this than me tapping away on Reddit mobile). Iโm not aware of there being Electron on iOS at all, given that Electron is a wrapper for Desktop apps.
tonefart ยท -9 points ยท Posted at 04:16:41 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Why discord doesn't have the proper decision making leads. Hybrid mobile apps are for those who want to deliver half assed apps.
i_spot_ads ยท 10 points ยท Posted at 13:03:22 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
what did you ever deliver something that was useful to millions of people? Did you ever write anything fully assed with your C/CPP/Rust
Blocks_ ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 15:50:42 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
While I don't agree with tonefart, asking if someone if they've done something better than someone else doesn't make their compaints any less valid. Asking if tonefart has delivered something useful to millions of people isn't a good argument at all to his argument of Discord not having proper decision making leads.
Apologies if my comment is hard to read.
devperez ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 16:03:26 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
You're absolutely right. I can get mad at Manning for making a shit throw without being able to make that throw myself.
Blocks_ ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 16:13:51 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I'm not sure if I'm missing a joke here, but of course you can get mad at someone for making a bad throw.
devperez ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 16:14:40 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I was using a shorter analogy to agree with you.
zellyman ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 16:32:55 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Yeah but when you get mad at Manning for making a weird throw that ends up being a touchdown and the only thing you've ever played is soccer you just kinda look whiny and out of your element.
dancemethis ยท -10 points ยท Posted at 23:06:22 on July 26, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Now's a good time as any to either go honest, and become Free Software... or cease, OpenFeint 2 - Privacy Boogaloo.
Tooves ยท -21 points ยท Posted at 03:23:40 on July 27, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
https://discord.gg/KeYB73V
join. well laid out channels uses way less ram
haykam821 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:41:29 on July 30, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
No, donโt even check what this is