Because they have to hype up the Phasma novel, (available at any bookstore, probably in clearance by now)

I think JJ Abrams tried to build her up, and Rian felt like he had to continue with it. And the funny thing is, JJ Abrams is back for Episode 9, and will have to pick up threads created by Rian in TLJ.

But yes, Phasma seems like a waste. They certainly did not need a rather well known actress for that role when we don't see the face at all.

Well Boba is a piece of shit hyped character too, and she is basically in the same role. But yeah, dumb to have her do a bunch of media considering her role.

The actor may be but the character isn’t. I agree with you about the marketing thought. Phasma is terrible and I’m glad they don’t spend much time with that character.

Shockmaster!

You mean her eye?

There was a rumour I heard somewhere that the movie was supposed to be longer but when they cut it down, they took out all of Phasma stuff except for what we ended up getting.

I 100% believe they created her character to sell toys because she has cool chrome armor. She was collectively in these two movies for like ten minutes and then she just died. It's bullshit. $$$

That's kinda what Hollywood does. They stand in front if cameras and say nice things for life karma.

Then they do whatever they were gonna do anyway.

Just watch them. This is literally their only play. At best they "donate" to something.

I agree with you to an extent, but in 5-10 years, who is going to remember the promotional material that surrounded the movie? I too was ultimately underwhelmed by her appearance, but it didn't really bother me like it did in The Force Awakens. The Last Jedi was already packed to start with, I don't think it really needed to be further inflated with fan service.

You know a lot of people complain about Rey being too powerful(and I agree), but I wish more people would bring Poe up in the same conversation. He is so insanely good in an X-wing that he makes the previous movie's dogfights look like people playing Rogue Squadron on a keyboard. This trilogy has a serious case of spectacle creep imo. The bigger and bigger Star Destroyers are emblematic of this.

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What doesn’t make it work is everything about the first half of the movie being completely talentless. Genuinely felt like I was watching some day time sci-fi series with better CGI. Second half was clearly better but had some poor segments and just weird decision making.

Can we get a source on this?

Sorry man, just don't trust you

Fair enough, but a lot of people can obviously see that the movie doesn't exist. Neither side is right or wrong here.

big, if true

Do you understand? It's all in your head.

Actually, a recent interview from Rian revealed that he didn't put them in the movie because they wouldn't really have had anything to do. They would have been Snokes Guards, but he felt that since they were formed by Kylo that it would have been a waste and too much emotional baggage for Kylo in that moment on top of everything else.

Which does make me happy, since it's very likely we ARE going to finally see them in the next movie, especially with J.J returning.

And Kylo will probably need them to establish his rule over the New Order.

(I'm mostly just assuming that they're back at base or on other missions at the time of this movie.)

Just wait for Part 3 of Rian's Trilogy; Rose Wars: The Knights of [getting their butts kicked by a mechanic]

Knights of Ren deleted scene

Theres gonna be 2 years of Knights of Ren talk and then they dont end up in the movie at all. An incoherent Trilogy.

Literally this

I mean did you read the opening scroll?

They are probably leading the charge to take hold of the rest of the galaxy.

You wouldn't expect Snoke and ALL the First Order to have been in the situation in the movie because that would mean they have like 50 guys left.

They straight up wasted Finn

I want to know when the hell they are gonna kiss. Knowing Disney, there's a chance it could happen.

Ditto this for Rey and Finn. The strongest aspects of FA were totally wasted in TLJ.

They only have like 2 scenes in TFA, don't they? The escape from the star destroyer, and then the Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure scene when Poe explains how he survived because he fell out of his armor TIE Fighter when he hit the floor.

I'm not even gay but I'd even settle on a gay porn parody of Finn and Poe just to see them on screen together again

This guy went from hero of a generation of fans to the weird dude drinking out of a scope bottle on the subway.

Truer words, fightonphilly.

I have to say a Luke Skywalker fight scene was high on my list of anticipation for this film, something they could have easily accomplished.

That was the original plan, Rian felt it wasn't good enough.

Agree with everything you said. And being a girl, I must also say I found Rey to be a total Mary Sue. The agenda behind this movie is so transparent when you see the results. Disney, Rian Johnson, Kathleen Kennedy and Kiri Hart have killed Star Wars.

Well said.

I think they missed a huge oppurtunity with the mind connections scenes with kylo and rey. The fact that is was set up by snoke was a let down. They could have kept up that struggle between them longer and kept fans guessing to the mystery of it. A lot of missed character development oppurtunities. I personaly like kylo as super emo, as it shows he isnt mature and struggles to find his place, but whatever. Now he wants to be a ruler, cop out plot that is lame.

It honestly feels similar to r/the_donald sometimes with the alternative facts they have going on in there

That's a very accurate assessment, I've heard The_Donald bans people for disagreeing, that's exactly what r/StarWars does

Kinda feels like all fandoms are like this these days. You love it or you gtfo. Apparently its like this entering the fandom.

It’s just so badly written. I can’t believe Disney shot the movie on essentially a first draft.

Overwritten.

I'm honestly more interested in the conflict between Maz and Outpost Workers Local 3344353; how did negotiations breakdown? Was there a strike? Who shot first? Is the union corrupt? Do they get dental?

This is exactly what I thought while watching it for the first time. The entire thing screams PS2-era cutscene, right down to the way she says “find the master hacker” and immediately leaves.

That entire side-plot is easily my biggest criticism of the movie. I enjoyed the rest of movie, but that part was just so jarring and didn't feel like Star Wars at all. Its worsened by the fact that the entire secret mission ended up being worthless from the start.

Snoke getting killed off right away with little to no backstory given was pretty disappointing for me as well. We assume knowledge of the dark side of the force and the Sith die off with the death of the Emperor, yet he seemingly appears and is able to take command of the remnants of the galactic empire. A simple 5 minute clue to his origins and how he came to discover the ways of the force would have been nice, instead he just felt like cannon fodder and never demonstrates the true extent of his power.

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I can hear the Skyrim quest sound perfectly after reading this.

Wow. Yeah, there was definitely something off about that scene and it really annoyed me the first time I saw it, but you just made me hate it so much more.

And the comment implying them fucking was wholly unnecessary.

It's the glaring pacing issue in this movie. I like what it attempted to do; add nuance to Star Wars, flip tropes, a new locale. Problem was it took too long, some of the b story's "points" was ham fisted and fell flat, prequel esque CGI, and the A story was SO much more interesting. Very little of it felt natural

What they should've done was have Maz overlooking the clean-up/repair of her cantina and state her age and location as reasons she can't help them. After naming a few people who could do it, she asks where Han and Chewie are. They tell her of his death. Maz is taken back by it visibly upset. A foreman/worker comes up behind her and asks what they should do about something constructiony and angrily waves him off. She turns back to Poe and Co. to forget the people she just named but to instead go after that casino guy (THE best man she knows) whom he owes a debt to Maz.

Wish we could have just skipped that side quest and spent more time on the main plot quest.

I always hated how they don't even find the codebreaker. They just happen to be put in a jail cell with someone who happens to also be an expert codebreaker.

A cheap sidequest at that. No plot whatsoever, just go and do this

Yeah, that seals the deal for me. The fact that they were doing reprisals against a newspaper one month before TLJ’s release and “reached out” to get a critic to repent ... yeah, Disney has a chokehold on critics. There’s no possible way they could have legitimately like it in those numbers.

Too many plot holes and pointless twists. Disney surely know how to screw it up with a heart of profit. Just suck this money printing machine dry.

With The Last Jedi, it's easy for reviewers and critics to focus on the things they like and just leave out all the terrible things. It has the makings of good things (darker, subversive themes, good acting performances, great cinematography) all in service of a terrible story. But all they have to do is just tilt their review one way rather than the other and it's easy to do.

All of the heavily-subscribed Youtube reviewers are forever suspect now that Disney has so much more power. Without the early access and perks, they would lose out significantly and no one will stand up for them the way old media stood with the LA Times.

Disney actually reached out to Angry Joe? Is there acutal proof of this? I am really suprised by this.

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Rey can't lose or look inferior. It's also why she'll be a better, wiser Jedi master than Luke, Yoda and the entire old Jedi council put together.

Beat Poe, beat Finn, killed Snoke, killed the majority of the red dudes. The only people Kylo hasn't beaten are Rey and Luke. And Luke wasn't even there anyway.

Not only is he around for no reason, he's presumably been around since the OT or before considering how old he is. What was he doing then? Did Sheev know about him? Was he biding his time? The answer is that no one who made this movie cares.

They just made a new dark side user out of thin air to kick this whole new plotline into motion. So in other words, this entire plot of the new trilogy is founded entirely on... nothing. Contrivance and convenience. Making money. There is no context given to how and why his character exists or why he's doing what he does and how he fit into this established universe.

This sums up everything wrong with TFA and TLJ. Plot is an after thought. Money is the only motivation, which makes the casino scene that much more hypocritical.

He's nobody. Same as Rey.

Well,

1. Rey is nobody.
2. Snoke is nobody.
3. Finn is nobody.
4. Phasma is nobody.
5. Rose is nobody.
6. DJ is nobody.

(Add to list freely who is next nobody without orgin)

He might as well have been one of the nameless troops that got slaughtered, except they built him up to be more significant than that, than just some anybody common goon. They built him up to be a big deal, hung the lampshade and establish the mystery of who this foreign dark side user could be, and they did nothing with him. He was just a disposable character that they gave undue hype and gave him a face and name and got tricked so easily. What a waste.

This was the only damn thing I was looking forward to after the TFA rehash and they threw Snoke away as if he was meaningless after building him up to be THE villain. They created mystery and teased the origins of the most powerful force user ever and then tossed it aside. What a wast indeed.

Star Wars: The Last Nobody

If Snoke was Jar-Jar

Meesa nobody, Annie

He was just a disposable character that they gave undue hypeHe was just a disposable character that they gave undue hype

Gwendolyn is just as mad.

I'm still with the theory that Snoke is that brave youngling who greets Vader. And revealing his story in the next movie is an easier trick that in the SW:Last Jedi, actually. It's just about Ren visiting Supreme Leader's private quarters and turning them upside-down.

Rey leaves the fight with the guards without a scratch.

Uhhh, ackshually, she gets a tiny scratch on her arm. 10/10 TLJ is a masterpiece confirmed.

What's Rey's arc in this trilogy?

Rey is Nobody™

Really though, catching the blaster’s, well blast, was one of the coolest uses of the Force I’ve ever seen

Right? Look at how bad ass this sith lord is! oh yeah he was trained by Luke and Snoke 2 insanely powerful people. Okay now watch him fail in situations he probably shouldn't be like fighting an untrained girl!

Honestly, I would feel so much better about the next movie (and this one) if he'd just kicked Rey's ass after killing Snoke. They've done terrible at establishing Kylo and the First Order as an actual threat.

For real. I was excited for him.

Now I am just wondering why Rey keeps sparing his life.

TFA nerfed him when he lost to Rey. I really think having her beat him was a bad decision. Ending it on a draw as the ground parts would have been better, and wouldn't have made Kylo come off so weak

Considering Jedi and sith can deflect blasts with ease, stopping one mid air with the force probably isn't as difficult as it seems. Just a very visually impressive and intimidating display of the force which is what kylo was all about. Why waste energy and concentration locking a blaster bolt mid air when you can just deflect it.

That was also really the only time he's taking on regular soldiers while at full strength.

I choose to believe he saw Poe and was expecting it the entire time, just to show off how dark side powerful he is to everyone

TFA INTRODUCED A NEW MOVE: STOPPING BLASTER BOLTS. WHY DID THEY ADD THISS??? IT COMPLETELY DESTROYS THE STAR WARS UNIVERSE. WHY DONT THE JEDI ALWAYS STOP EVERY BLASTER BOLT??? /s

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Huh. Maybe there's a limited amount of force points in the universe, and now that Rey's getting force points, they're coming out of Ren's total.

Lost Starkiller Base

Hell even in TFA Snoke himself literally doesn’t give a shit about it. Personally even with a massive ship that is literally your shipyard/armory/barracks/motor pool id still be fucking livid that a fucking solar system killing planet sized weapon base was destroyed, but he just shrugs it off so I never got the sense that it was such a massive deal. Plus, Snoke was never there, so from that it’s implied he’s hiding in their actual base.

The plan

They didn’t know that the capital ship was the only one being tracked until Rose and Finn got to the Supremacy. They assumed that the FO was able to track the entire fleet through hyperspace, and thus couldn’t go anywhere. This is why they start using the Raddus as cover for the transports (although why it took 75% of the entire Resistance blowing up before Holdo covered the fleet with the ship make no sense)

The reason why Finn and Rose get away on a transport is because they probably figured the FO wouldn’t notice a tiny blip flying away when they’re wholly focused on the Resistance leadership.

I thought the plan was that the small transports were cloaked so they would try and get to Crait undetected. The cruiser would then lead the pursuing fleet away.

I ask as at the start of TLJ we learn....The First Order Reigns! How? When did this happen? In the 8 hours between the two films??

I think they "reign" by virtue of being the only group in the galaxy with a large enough fleet. In TFA it is mentioned (IIRC) that after the empire was defeated and the republic reinstated, the question of a large centralized military/fleet was a big sticking point and that it was decided that the republic wasn't going to have a large fleet and that each planetary system was going to have their own military.. or something like that.

So with the new republic fleet gone, the FO now has the means to fly around and boss around whoever they want, without anyone being able to say anything about it... So they can fly around, collect taxes, take what they want, install puppet governments, etc. essentially a similar setup to a lot of ancient empires.

This was answered in the film. The base was shielded against bombardment and they sent out a call for help.

I guess the film divides people for different reasons.

It's almost impressive how virtually anyone can find something to hate in this movie. It's like a universal bonding experience.

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See: The Clone Wars TV show. Lucas contributed or oversaw every single episode. Every storyline. Every character arc. A team of talented writers and directors made sure to reign in some of his extreme ideas but you can go watch some of the more acclaimed episodes in there and you can see the magic of the Star Wars brand. You can’t replicate that kind of magic by tossing out George Lucas’s ideas and concepts.

They did, every major plot point was from his own story treatments. Luke being an angry hermit, the Skywalker falling to the dark side, the killing of the master, that’s all in there. Granted, different names (Kylo Ren was supposed to be an assassin called Talon working for “Uber” (Snoke) that converts Ben Solo (Skywalker) to the dark side, Kira (Rey) being a scavenger that is force attuned and tries to bring the Skywalker back to the light) and different details but the same overarching narrative.

Agree.  I felt that Force Awakens drops some hints that Finn is force sensitive which could have been a cool story arc for him.  Instead we get nothing.  Spends most of the movie on some pointless side quest where he learns about war profiteering and that war can somehow be won without destroying the enemy.

The Star Wars writing team would rather elevate the status of women over that of a non-caucasian man. Hell, they even invented a non-caucasian woman to shit all over Finn at the same time. Take that patriarchy!

Finn sucks in TFA. He's one of the few things I didn't like about that movie. In TLJ though...damn. He got done dirty. What a shit character.

Nah, Finn needed to be neglected more in this movie. Like cut out 99% of his scenes. Got way too much screen time.

Except their space ships just get bigger and bigger and impossibly BIGGER. Hey guys, I know we keep getting defeated and going in to hiding, but don't worry, you'll all have slick space Nazi uniforms and ships the size of goddamn planets.
What do the Rebels do in the meantime? Jerk off and eat Tide pods while flying around in their intergalactic trash cans?

And they somehow control the entire galaxy after blowing up five planets. What the hell.

Yes! This is my biggest problem with BOTH of the movies. Kylo Ren walks off his ship after murdering an entire village of people with his bad ass helmet and his cool and calculated demeanor. Gets blindsided by a blaster shot, stops the round in mid fucking air and unleashes his gnarly ass sounding and looking lightsaber to the shoulder of a terrified Poe... And Poe's response "so do you start talking first or do I"

HOW AND WHY WOULD YOU FUCKING RUIN THAT MOMENT AND MOOD!? WHY! You make this supposed badass look like a clown.

I was also pissed when he removed his helmet. He should have never taken that thing off. Ever . The helmet worked. In the beginning of TLJ when he destroys it for good is when I knew the movie was completely fucked beyond recognition. The jokes in front of the all powerful first order makes the first order worthless. The first order is not a threat. They are a completely incompetent army headed by a whiny and non intimidating fool.

Considering the empire was toppled over by teddy bears, I've never found the empire a focus to worry about.

I know I'm guilty of this, but everyone's so just fucking aggressive about their opinions on it and it stops being fun to talk about. Downvotes are thrown around everywhere and everyone thinks they have the O B J E C T I V E take on the movie, and both sides claim they are on the unfairly represented part of the circlejerk. You can spend 10 minutes typing out your thoughts, and depending on who sees it, it might just be shredded to the bottom of a thread and buried, and you just waste your time and mental energy. Shit, that's happening in this comment thread.

And then you get the wackier political people that are simply mad at female characters tagging in to random r/movies threads and it becomes even lamer and more annoying because I have to read these nutty rants on how The Last Jedi hates men or something in between the actual debate.

Edit: Just look at the Galactic Civil War going on in sorted by:new or controversial to see how liberally the downvote button gets used in TLJ threads, sometimes for the most innocent posts.

Whenever I see a post now with TLJ in the title I make a quiet "....uhhhh" sound and I don't click on it.

yeah I'm done with it. I understand both sides, I see some people that are hung up on specific things that have been easily explained, it's like they want to hate it.

It really is. I'm pretty close to the middle. I really loved some aspects of it but the gripes I have run pretty deep too, but yeesh it's like there's no straddling the fence on this one and so many times logic is just out the window. Also the amount of times I've seen people complain about the bombers not realizing that once an object has velocity, it will remain moving through the vacuum at that velocity, has been monumentally frustrating.

Funny how when this happens to Star Wars in /r/movies people will finally see the stupidity of it all but when it happens to Batman V Superman, all hands on keyboards and shit all over that movie no matter what.

Which makes sense when you have a movie with as much hype as this one that nails a lot of things and makes a lot of mistakes. For some the rose collered glasses for Star Wars outweighs everything. For others flaws were minor enough and the strengths (like Kylo) carried the film to something good if not great. For others the flaws were to frequent or to glaring to enjoy the film as a whole.

So yeah, the discussion we see is what we should expect with the film we got. If this movie was amazing like Empire Strikes Back the conversation would be very one sided on the pro side. If it was abysmal like your least favorite prequel the criticism would be incessant. Instead we are see very mixed reactions and that can be explained by a popular franchise with a movie that has great elements and weaker elements.

I think the crowd that loved it slightly outnumbers the crowd that didn't like it. At least on reddit. And when you have such large camps of polarizing opinions it drowns out a lot of the nuanced discussion.

I do think there is a lot of good discussion happening in long form by critics on podcasts and youtube. Those are fun. But on forums like reddit its harder to have enjoyable discussions about it, either critical of or in praise of.

It's only exhausting insofar as the fervid TLJ lovers feel the need to spend all their time attacking anyone who didn't enjoy these massive plot holes.

Especially when there is a dedicated subreddit for this.

Just go to /r/StarWars if you want to discuss instead of saturating this sub.

In a universe with droid labor is everywhere, even on a backwater dirt farm like Tattoine, how is it an uber-wealthy casino planet has Dickensesque street urchins for labor?

and BB-8 has a coin slot/launcher?!

I for the life of me can not figure out what the original purpose of this would be. How does this tool help BB-8 repair starships? The answer is that Rian Johnson probably didn't even think about that. People like to hate R2's rocket boosters from the prequels but at least it kinda makes sense that an astro droid would have something like that.

edit: grammer

Wait, so the entire conflict on the unnecessary casino planet was due to a parking violation?

Yes. The rebels fought PARKING COPS and destroyed a CASINO because they couldnt find a parking lot...

It was a cool visual, but star wars is about dog fights and imposing capital ships

And it defeats the purpose of a Death Star.

actual peril

I agree. It was Rian thinking he was smarter than Star Wars. He wasn't.

they didn't use force powers - why?

Rian. They're sorry, their force powers are tired.

it's terribly forgettable.

It seemed more like a Samurai film than Sci-fi, someone needed to lose an arm (Kylo or Rey)

if you give the protagonist super powers you have to give the antagonist proportional power, otherwise it's bad fiction

Rey is a true disappointment from a heroic standpoint, she has no trials, she just yawns, and all her opponents fall to dust.

She is the Jesus of the SW universe at this point.

it's bad fanfiction.

No comment.

I said MANY times in the original thread that the fight scene was horrible. Got downvoted to hell for it. But if that had any bearing on other people seeing your post and the wisdom contained within then I am happy.

I can't agree with you more on your points. Ask anyone what the most memorable scenes were from The New Hope and many will list the Darth Vader/Obi-Wan scene as #1. TLJ has zero redeemable qualities as a stand-alone film. As a bridge in the middle of a trilogy, it's the worst effort I've ever seen. If this wasn't Star Wars a third film would not be made.

Han Solo explains how the Millennium Falcon (and any ship travelling at lightspeed) can get through the First Orders defensive shielding (As Admiral Ackbar calls it) Because shields keeps anything traveling less than lightspeed from getting through.

He used it for the first time lightspeed as weapon. It is JJ flapdoodle from TFA.

He refers to it as a "fractional refresh rate" which means that rather than being a continuous wall of energy, it is produced in pulses (from the shield generator) and every X amount of time, there is a small window of opportunity to pass through it, but of course, you have to be going really fast meaning lightspeed or more.

Have you seen how short a distance they go to stop in and out of hyperspace in past Star Wars moves? It's completely idiotic.

So, you can weaponize lightspeed as long as it is possible to break through defensive shielding.

I agree that this technique breaks Star Wars . This opens up the possibility to just dropping a hyper-drive on something (or anything) and shooting it off like a missile. No more need for space fighters. Just send a horde of hyper-drive enabled bombs (Photon torpedoes from Star Trek) at whatever you want to destroy. And here's why it's really too way dangerous someone who directed Star Trak has an influence. Because Star Trek has sensors (hyperspace tracking) and defensive lightspeed weaponry systems that would generally render "Fighters" and "Destroyers" as we know them useless in battle.

And we got it "omnium gatherum" Star Wars as a final product...

Wasn't the villain Snoke and then Kylo himself? After Snoke died, Rey and Kylo fought together temporarily because they had to get rid of the guards. Maybe they didn't use force powers because it wasn't necessary. 2 jedi vs normies is one sided without them. I don't think it was supposed to be a close fight. More to show them alternately fighting with and against each other.

Did you notice the scene where Rey is fighting off 3 knights with one light saber? Ren is fighting 2 and needs help with the second one even though he can stop lazers with his hand and kill his seemingly omniscient and nearly omnipotent boss.

Also i didn't notice this before,

When the sea is full of garbage, it's hard to keep track of every piece of trash.

Literally, just so that she could have a scene in the movie. There is no other reason.

Well I can say definitively that that is not Maz Kanata.

"All are welcome. (No fighting.)," a mantra written in a hundred different languages on a wall beyond Maz Kanata bar.

Here is source https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/books/2016/07/08/maz-kanata-star-wars-aftermath-life-debt-exclusive-excerpt/86839668/

And now we see her as a warrior. In a war. Shoots from various weapons. (Yes fighting.) Like in a video game cutscene.

Seeing as the makers of the TLJ had no knowledge whatsoever of even (ignore) the existence and content of an episode 7.

Insanity . . .

I'm liking Stormy more and more. Might be time to give her a shot at the Star Wars trilogy. She is a MUCH more experienced director than Rian Johnson.

I've said many, many times, he is a green director. Fox learnt their lesson with Josh Trank, I wonder if Disney has learnt the same ?

There's just so many decisions in this movie where Johnson made the wrong choice, going for the boring, lame plot branch. Kylo and Rey couldve teamed up like you mentioned, either both evil or both good (Kylo joining the rebels to defeat the FO), not killing off Snoke or at least giving him a better death, not killing off Luke or at least giving him a better death, giving Leia a proper send off instead of a lame subversive superwoman scene.... It just goes on and on

I very easily overlooked that moment because a couple minutes before that, Phasma and co literally had their laser cheese cutters on Finn and Rose's necks, the ship gets attacked, and then Phasma walks in from another room.

BB-8 was our Mary Sue all along.

It says a lot when an astromech soloing a battalion is less discussed than the various other plot contrivances

Also that top rips off and there's pretty much only room for BB8 in there.

man leave Yondu out of this

He's the deus ex machina

It's so hard to actually cover everything the movie did wrong. It's such a mess

Astromechs have been shown to fly space crafts in the movies and TV shows.

Yes, if only the Empire had developed some kind of dedicated strike craft capable of outpacing capital ships and equipped with armaments specifically designed to penetrate the shielding of heavy vessels.

Alas, the First Order's over-reliance on slow yet paradoxically fragile dagger shaped ships proves once again to be its downfall.

If star destroyers were a game unit in starcraft 2 nobody would build them cause they would cost a lot, do nothing and have lots of weaknesses. The whole idea that a large fleet cannot destroy a small force in front of them screams convenient writing.

Well Kylo and his wingmen did do all that damage, but his wingmen were both destroyed during the attack. It’s possible that they’re trying to retain as much of their fleet as possible, seeing as their next step in conquering the galaxy.

And why couldn't those star destroyers just jump ahead of the cruiser, negating the whole "stern chase"

Agreed, all his videos on TLJ are really well done. I highly recommend watching!

These are excellent. The best critique of TLJ I've come across.

The whole thing is a pretty incredible dressing down of the entire movie. But part 2 really gets to the heart of why the B and C plots of Poe, Finn and Rose are not only useless, fucking garbage, but in the end it's played off as some sort of joke about how humiliating Poe is as a character. It's pretty much Rian Johnson fighting against the tide of episode 4's themes about following your heart and instinct.

it makes sense for a human to have flaws and change.

That only makes sense if you don't understand meaningful filmmaking and Jake's arc in TLJ.

i think you said 'poe' a couple times you meant 'finn'

I whole heartedly agree with everything you said and this is coming from someone who loved the movie. Besides a certain unceremonial death, my biggest issue with the movie was the actual dialogue, star wars has it's own kind of dialogue that's very opera-esque and not very formal but this movie suddenly has goofy dialogue. It's weird nitpicks but when ren and rey have one of their force talks, their dialogue completely ripped me out of the movie and made me think "why are they talking like that?"

(The dialogue went something like:

REY: this isn't a good time to do this.

KYLO: yeah.)

Also those cheesy jokes and one liners and the swearing just ruined what wouldve been a fantastic star wars movie that could have been besides empire. Give it time, the movie definitely will be held in high regard by fans but it's the writing and cheap jokes that will always hold it back from being great and imo that definitely felt like studio interference. I'm sure Rian had the freedom to do fight scenes the way he liked so I will criticise the slow motion luke dodges from the very end of the film as cheesy. They could've executed that idea in so many better ways than crappy matrix slo mo dodges.

This is basically what I've been saying. It's not a bad star wars film. It's a bad film, period.

I recently watched Logan and I cried. Don't laugh. That's how you send off a beloved character.

The current star wars seems like it was made by people who honestly dislike the fans and the culture that sprung up around it. Like they can "take a break" and dish out high budget trash cause they think fans are too stupid to care.

Perhaps they are right. I'm not one of those hardcore fans so it's no hair off my nose. I dislike this film only cause as a writer I get irrationally upset when I notice poor writing from people are are supposed to be better than me.

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Legitimately terrible. The only good part was with Yoda.

Yeah your totally right about the Disney part.. The first 20 minutes i literally felt like i was watching a parody instead of the actual movie a couple of times.. The tone was waaay off, even the more serious moments got immediately dismissed by the "humurous" comments by characters, even Luke.

There wasnt an Epic feeling to this movie at all, aside from the epic failure.. I even understand what they tried to do with Snoke (so caught up in his rage that he failed to notice the sword next to him shifting) but the while scene was doomed to fail with that weird MTV video set of a room they shot it in (it was like a freaking Daft Punk music video) and the fact they give Snoke ANY backstory that explains WHY he is so angry..

This captures most of my issues with the film. It just wasn't Star Wars at all. Back to the novels for me. Jacen Solo>all

Yeah...what was the point of the Jedi tree and sacred texts? Where did that come from?

I still don't understand what lessons 2 and 3 were.

Chewie was a chauffer the whole movie.

The OJ chase thing really bugged me. The entire movie was watching the cops chase the white bronco....really slowly.

When trying to kill the battering ram on the planet, Rose crashes into Finn. They were picking off every one of those ships 1 x 1 like they were flies yet Finn gets through even though he is by himself and Rose is able to knock him out which means she got through too? Also, how fast were they going? Those speeders didn't have airbags yet Finn was able to walk away basically unscathed. Rose had enough strength to sit up and kiss Finn right before she collapses? How did they get back so fast too?

If they knew that the FO wasnt monitoring for smaller ships, why not deploy earlier? Aren't they transport ships which kind of implies that they have lightspeed?

I saw they tried to force romantic tension, but it missed badly. It also makes no sense as the events of TFA happened just days prior to this forced romantic tension. Why would Rey feel anything positive toward someone when she saw him blow out Finns spine and just dueled mere days ago?

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I think the romance overall was just really poorly done, and only thrown in because "its star wars! We have to have romance somewhere in there." Finn and Rose felt sooooo forced, especially after how obviously Finn likes Rey. To me it felt like a fan fic where the author wantes to ship everyone together - Finn x Rey, Finn x Rose, Rey x Ren, Leia x Holdo???

There was one scene where it could have been implied, but it was overall lacking and more substantive in the reviews, than in the film itself.

The most apparent 'romantic tension' is when Rey becomes embarrassed when she witnesses the swole sith. Their nightly force communications seem like secret liasons akin to Romeo/Juliet (with a protective father figure in Luke forbidding them). Rey is also a bit too eager to 'save' Ren from the darkside... her rashness is a rather romantic notion - especially because he was complicit in the murder of trillions of people just a week before. Ren saved Rey from Snoke (while also furthering his own ambitions). Their fight scene against the imperial guard was obviously choreographed - which is totally fine - but it seemed a bit like a ballet dance in that respect. There's probably a bit more, but I think that is all pretty fair evidence of romantic tension

I think they were trying to write Kylo as a deconstruction of an abusive partner. The whole "you're nothing, but not to me" scene is a classic representation of psychological abuse. Or, in laymen's terms, he's a "nice guy" who they show negging Rey.

Absolutely agree.

no one is ever truly gone

The movie definitely had some muddled messaging. We're supposed to believe Poe made a mistake taking out the dreadnought but your point stands. They would have been destroyed. We're supposed to believe Finn made a mistake in trying to sacrifice himself to destroy the battering cannon, but without Luke showing up everyone definitely dies. I don't know that Finn's gamble would have succeeded but a slim chance is better than no chance. Rose's action is bizarre.

“The crazy thing is, I had no perspective on these tweets. I had no perspective in terms of how big a group of people this was, even what they were upset about specifically," Johnson revealed. "Over the next few weeks, I was able to contextualize it and feel much better about it. But at the time, I thought, ‘Oh my god, does everybody hate this? Did I totally mess up, was I wrong?’ And I had a very dark hour of the soul…because I had no context for this.”

Johnson referred to being inundated with those hate tweets as a "hellish hour," yet eventually came to grips with the naysayers being in the minority.

Ignoring the hatred was easier said than done, with Johnson admitting, “When even 5% of the people are saying, ‘You ruined Star Wars, I hope you die,’ that’s what you’re going to listen to.”

When asked point blank if he'd change any of his decisions, Johnson merely stated, "No, I don't think so."

He added, “I don’t even know what that kind of approach would be. You have a way that you tell stories…you just do that.”

“There’s nothing I’ve read or seen that’s made me think, ‘Oh god, I did kind of mess that up, I would’ve done that differently if I could go back,'” Johnson confirmed. “I still genuinely believe in all the decisions I’ve made.”

Obviously, to come out and say you messed up isn't good but the lack of self-awareness this guy has regarding his own film shows he's the wrong man for the job. Period.

I hope this guy gets removed because only then will I pay to watch SW films.

Johnson often explained how his film was going to push forward and deal very little with the past

Without understanding the past, the present makes no sense and there is no future you fucking moron.

God, this dude is really sold on Canto Blight being the most amazing idea ever. Lmao. I’ve seen Johnson’s films but this dude is a straight hack

he would help craft his film's novelization

I have a bad feeling about this....

explorations of the fascinating world of Canto Bight

Oh, crap....

As Mike said - "It's the cinematic equivalent of Homer Simpson's makeup shotgun"

Oh no I can't believe this is canon and yet it is. So The First Order not only lost an entire planet-sized base, it's also lost a ship with a crew over 200,000? And the Supremacy, destroyed later in the film, had a crew of over two million?

What is going on in this galaxy? Where are all of these people coming from, and why doesn't it mean anything when they are lost?

Leia was just hypocritic in that opening scene. She sends people on the, literally, suicide mission and then is holding Poe responsible for them to die? Come on.

You want to tell me you didnt send several submarines (if only one is enough to destroy the whole ship) just because you knew you had to get through only one and knew that single one wont make it through so you sent several?

Can I get a source on those numbers?

http://www.indiewire.com/2018/02/jj-abrams-star-wars-last-jedi-women-1201929593

JJ think fans are “threatened” by female characters. What a joke. I have no Hope for Episode IX now.

Or just have Yoda appear on Snoke's ship and blow the reactor. TFA just renders the plot of the original trilogy as unnecessary.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DWWMb9JX4AEnmnd.jpg

I thought the projection wasn't physically tangible?

In canon it was explained that because of a little kerfluffle^tm, Vice Admiral Holdo had accidentally left her Savers card in her other Volvo;

leaving the Rebels unable to fillup

Well they assumed they'd just be able to hyperspace to wherever they were going. And then it turned out they were being tracked through hyperspace so they wouldn't be able to do that.

They wanted to get fuel from another planet because its cheaper as that planet doesn't have tax their fuel as much but they probably took a few detours on the way there and now they really regret not just getting fuel before leaving off

It’s really funny that when a team is made up of 100% female members, people say “wow that’s great diversity” when it’s actually the complete opposite of diversity.

Let’s be clear, modern feminists do not want “diversity” they want women to win, and they want men to lose.

And TLJ fanboys still say that Rose wasn't made for the sake of diversity.

It's obvious none of these people (Hart, Kennedy) have any concept of what makes Star Wars Star Wars. They have brought the franchise to a standstill. TLJ introduced some of the shittiest characters to ever appear in SW and that list includes Jar Jar and blue frickin' elephants.

"Kathleen Kennedy founded the group in 2012 when she succeeded George Lucas as president of Lucasfilm, putting Kiri Hart, a former film and TV writer, in charge of the unit. Ms. Hart’s first move was to make the story group entirely female"

He could save others but not himself. #LucasTheWise

I had to look up the "Ms. Hart's first move was to make the story group entirely female" bit. I couldn't believe it. Well; https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/22/movies/star-wars-last-jedi-women-run-universe.html

Wow. Just...wow. Between Kathleen "girls can't identify with Luke Skywalker" Kennedy, Rian "ask me about my feminist agenda" Johnson, and Kiri "actually the opposite of diversity" Hart, the agenda behind this movie is incredibly clear.

I'd like to mention that I'm a girl, and I find this unbelievably fucked up.

I'm not against that, I just want the story to be good

It's because the Jedi are the Patriarchy that must be destroyed. They've led the galaxy into war for thousands of years. Only the women can save us now.

He comes to this conclusion after his experience with Kylo Ren and also cites the Jedi as responsible for creating Darth Vader. His solution is then to exile himself and die, because in his mind, no Jedi then no Sith… or something like that.

Darth Sidious, Darth Plagueis, Darth Maul, Count Dooku, General Grievous...They were all the Jedi's fault because don't tell us what to do mmkay!

Does Luke really think that by going into exile, the Snoke problem will go away on its own? Not only did Snoke poach his students but he builds a massive galaxy conquering army while Luke sits idly in his island drinking walrus milk.

I reject everything that happened or was said on that island as bullshit that is an insult to my intelligence. I refuse to even consider it anything more than the lazy writing of incompetent, ignorant and self righteous morons.

It’s evident that R.Johnson struggled to find a good reason of why Luke had exiled himself in the island and this was the best he could do.

It's obvious that they decided certain events would happen, then contorted, contrived and smashed together an ill conceived plot to fill a narrative around these events. The plot, writing and themes were unnatural, disjointed and nonsensical. The more you think about it, the less sense it makes. Which is why people who don't think are the only ones that enjoy TLJ and cannot explain why they enjoy it.

I'm still with the theory that Snoke is the youngling who greets Vader second before Vader ignites a lighsaber. His mutilations suggest a deep-to-shallow strike from lower jaw to nose bridge and forehead, like a tip of lighsaber ripping his face open. If that child was a first victim in a massacre, that could be a sole reason he survived. Also explains Snoke's obsession with Skywalkers.

So, nope, it was actually jedi and siths who made Snoke -- and on so many levels.

“Its time or the Jedi to end” because Luke feels the Jedi are causing more harm that good?

Yes, he said that. But also:

"Every word of what you just said was wrong. The Rebellion is reborn today. The war is just beginning. And I will not be the last Jedi."

You know. I can understand how he probably could have gotten fed up with the whole thing. With losing students. Even with thinking of killing Ben. Ok, I get it. But for eff's sake - every lesson from all the movies tells us that if there is a Sith or Dark side user - you meet them. You confront and kill them once identified. In TPM - Darth Maul appears. Jedi seek to identify him with the purpose of killing him. AOTC - Jedi know Dooku has turned. They confront him. ROTS - they kill Dooku and identify Palpatine. ANH, ESB, ROTJ - its all about confrontation until Luke senses good and stops short of killing Vader to save him and himself from the dark side. But in TLJ - all that goes out the window because Luke's suspicions about Ben were true. So he feels guilty and cuts himself off from the Force along with the reasoning that the inherent conflict between Light and Dark is the problem. Again - with this notion - it all but surrenders the galaxy to the Dark Side. Not even Yoda's pep talk can move Luke. It goes against his character and is a sloppy disjointed completion of a character arc that Rian had no use for.

[deleted]

Yes, Luke dying is just cheap storytelling - as if trying to gut-punch the audience with shock tactics rather than meaningful writing. Johnson tries his hardest to replicate Yoda and Obi-Wan's death without comprehending what their deaths meant to the overall series. These films, if treated like mythology, are meant to show what it means to be spiritually fulfilled. Luke dying and sacrificing himself is fine but without tying it to some greater purpose, it means nothing. In this way, the accusations of this film being corporate nihilism beneath it all has merit to it.

To make matters worse, I don't think Rian Johnson understands this and consequentially, he won't learn from it either. I feel like the circle he is in tells him he made no mistakes. People like Joseph Gordon Levitt, the film critics who he showered with adoration on premiere night, Lucasfilm Storygroup, and Kennedy are informing him he did nothing wrong and shouldn't strive to do any better in the future (simply because they see nothing wrong here).

But what irks me most is his comments infer that he thinks Star Wars needs to grow rather than himself. He's always constantly defending himself or making excuses in a way that an amateur screenwriter or cheese fan fiction writer would defend their work. It's as if he wants to greedily take this franchise and shape it in his image. It's the literal definition of bullshitting.

I feel the same. It's like a bad dream that we'll never wake up from. 40 years of the most beautiful thing ever, completely destroyed in 150 minutes.

God I wish they would just throw all the copies of this movie down a dark hole and never speak of it.

I'm kinda hoping they at least leave some hints that it was all a 'broom girl's dream - like Rey is actually just a kid who has heard about Luke and the Rebellion and creates a fantasy story based on the original trilogy. They've invested too much so it won't happen. but JJ was involved with alternate dimensions, time travel and 'they were dead!' in Trek/Fringe/Lost so there is a smidgen of hope.

she in fact basically forces him to the ground with his own fathers lightsaber displaying she has supremacy in fighting

Spot-on.

It'd be like Vader following around Yoda for 2 hours just asking for training.

And he changes into black clothes upon her arrival. How angsty

The controversial opinions are the ones saying it's good, unfortunately.

"i liked it"

-50 karma

This nigga...

Listen...

• First of all, none of that about the truth about God was even in his movie, not even in the subtext (since when is there God in Star Wars? I guess since we have characters saying "godspeed" now). Second, is he saying Snoke was Sith? And Kylo? And the Knights of Ren? Not just dark-side users, but Sith? Did he think this through? Of course he didn't. Also, he is framing Luke's choice in Empire as a mistake. "What I couldn't do in Empire was let my friends just die?" You mean to tell me Luke would look back on turning Vader, defeating the Emperor through freaking love, and saving his friends and the galaxy as a bad decision? Shoot, he can continue helping the Resistance without bringing back the Jedi order. Just don't train any new Jedi you dope.

I knew something was wrong when I looked at their dialogue and realized I could interchange any of the lines,” he said. There wasn’t conflict between them.

• So, does he realize he could just write them differently? They barely knew each other in TFA, so I don't know, write some conflict? WRITE SOME CONFLICT THAT'S YOUR JOB. How about further exploring the consequences of Finn's upbringing as a First Order Stormtrooper and let that introduce some fraying between him and Poe. They've never done a mission together so let's see what would happen if they had to try to work together. We already know and care about these characters. This would be called actual character development (and it would mirror Han and Leia getting to know each other better and working through conflict in ESB to come out with a deeper relationship). Don't just throw a random Rose in there. And dear god it is blindingly obvious he just threw that kiss in there without taking the time to make sure his actors had chemistry or to develop any sort of romance in his script. He is a bad writer. Bad. Fanfiction.

• So for the sake of the story, Luke is better off dead. For the sake of Rey, he's better off dead. Well, isn't that what Luke wanted all along? And didn't Rian just say that Luke's justifications were just a cover for guilt? So if someone mistakenly wants to die because they feel bad, and then in the end they die alone on an island as they had planned, doesn't that make them right that they were better off dead? Or at least doesn't that make this thing a tragedy?

Wtf so a huge part of the movie is Luke being a little twat running away as he has guilt over wanting to kill his nephew.

And he rationalises it all by saying he has to end the Jedi to end the dynamic cycle of hate" between the Jedi and with?

THEN WHY THE FUCK DOES LUKE DO A 180 AT THE END OF THE FILM?! what was the fucking point of this film!?

Luke literally says he isn't "the last jedi, the rebellion is reborn" etc to kylo rennat the end of the film.

So the entire plot point of Luke being a titty milk sucking hobo ending the Jedi was moot. Well done Rian, this really was a smart move

the truth about God can rise from elsewhere

I can't even begin to tell you how wrong this is. What a SMUG fucking asshole.

The big gloss that he’s putting over the whole thing is: “The Force does not belong to the Jedi. This ongoing dynamic between the Jedi and the Sith just keeps renewing itself and just keeps feeding the fire. It’s time for this old religion to die so that the truth about God can rise from elsewhere

Holy shit Rian. It's time to stop.

Finn needing somebody else to go [to Canto] with who would actually challenge him and push him

...

The Kiss was something that felt right to me that I stuck to, to make my heart lift.

Rian, that wasn't your heart.

---

the possibilities are more varied and more exciting with him having passed on into the next realm.

#Force Ghost RainStorm

Every time Johnson offers more of an explaination of why he did what he did, the dumber it becomes. Dude thought Canto Bight was boring in the beginning and then lost his mind at the end. The rest, oof. Man, I wouldn’t be suprised to see a do over with the kindness of money Disney has after Episode 9’s numbers slump from the lack of interest

What......

I wish nothing but ill for Rian Johnson, in this life and the next.

I like his answers and I appreciate his point of view

If my experience tells me anything. Critics and directors never admit they are wrong.

Lover would imply reciprocation though.

The entire side plot with Finn had literally no effect on the story since they got caught anyway.

I think the side plot had several points, all undermined by the shallow story-telling.

1. It makes a meta point to the audience that these types of heroic excursions don't always work out. But every heroic excursion after that works out fine, they just needed to "subvert expectations" for a bit.

2. It makes the point that there are bad people profiting from the war. The Resistance and First order both put money in their pockets. So, we should cheer for the Resistance. Anyway it was making a point.

3. Subverting more expectations that DJ would be like Han Solo.

4. Finn and Rose apparently fell in love?

5. Mainly, it's to prove Poe should have listened to Holdo because by doing this side quest he inadvertently costs many lives of people we don't know or care about and who don't impact the story. Then Poe is placed right in command after Holdo dies, so.

You have learned that the world is not black and white and that there is child a d animal abuse. Important political things, you know? We need to be spoon fed lame politics in movies now.

I still can't fathom how 91% of critics enjoyed this film and gave it a 8.1/10. If RT wants any credibility, they need to ban all of those critics giving Disney films unbelievably glowing reviews for terrible films.

My favorite review so far:

not good, far too many plot holes; biggest one for me is: Ren why join snork ? who is Snork and where did snork come from ? not good enough.

I kind of want to see the Resistance and the First Order say, "You know what, we both got our asses kicked and our armies almost completely wiped out. Let's have a truce." I mean, who needs to control an entire galaxy, anyway?

We can focus on more subtle, behind the scenes conflicts (think Star Cold Wars), rather than constant Hitler speeches and planets blowing up. Maybe this is a better area to go for episodes 10-12, but I'd still like to see it.

Yea this film felt very "final". Like where can they even go for here? Is anyone invested in watching Rey beat Ren? She's already beaten him TWICE! Luke is gone, Han is gone, Leia (sadly) is also gone. Seems like they wanted Leia/Ren to be the final confrontation which they can no longer do (unfortunately.

How did Kathleen Kennedy allow two movies that were so disjointed?

Death Solar System

BROOM BOI MFERS

Out of all criticisms this is by far the worst I see. You have to have a complete lack of imagination to not see where the story can go from here at all. Like fine don't like the movie but come on that was not a very final ending, It would be like saying A New Hope had no room for a sequel.

Build another Death Star, Starkiller Base whatever!

Isn't that the point though? The first two movies mimic the storyline of the original trilogy (TFA much more overtly than TLJ): Orphan on a desert planet gets pulled into an adventure after finding a droid, she encounters a former Jedi who has been turned to the dark side by a mysterious puppet master, she and her friends work to defeat a massive, planet destroying weapon, then she seeks out a curmudgeonly former Jedi Master for training, goes to the heart of the enemy knowing it puts her at big risk, but ends up appealing to the former Jedi through a connection to get him to kill the puppet master.

Except the point in the throne room is where things diverge: Anakin Skywalker turns back to the light side after killing the emperor. Kylo Ren remains on the dark side after killing Snoke. Rey fails to turn him, and he continues to try to get her to join him to take down the good guys and together rule the galaxy.

It's hard to see where things go from here because things can no longer follow a familiar path. The next movie is what would happen if the Rebels hadn't defeated the Empire, if Darth Vader didn't turn back to Anakin Skywalker but instead took the Emperor's place. It'll be: What happens if the force didn't get balanced?

Went from pragmatic leader and rival/counterpart of Kylo, to a Star Scream self-serious butt of jokes. So lame.

I saw Hux as an over the top, almost cartoonish character in TFA. TLJ only amplified that.

I actually love the relationship between Kylo and Hux. That moment when Hux starts reaching for his gun before Kylo wakes up is such a great moment. I prefer his character in TLJ to just being a fairly generic evil leader, although I feel like they could have found a balance somewhere in the middle.

If you notice, Kylo Ren made the exact opposite transition and went from annoying emo teenager to a more composed and adult-like character that's far easier to take seriously.

I'm not sure what that really means though, if anything.

“Your momma”

Young adult extremism is all too familiar to us these days, yet instead of using Hux as a commentary on young radicalized extremists, they turned him into a stupid looking clown.

That was my only major gripe with this film. I wanted him to become an ambitious grand admiral or something, constantly rivalling with Kylo.

I actually think they mishandled him in TFA and TLJ fixes it a bit.

Ultimately there’s a big issue for all the villains outside Kylo Ren in that their motivations aren’t personal or relatable enough. Making him the butt of the joke gives him some real motive if he ends up going wild in the next movie.

This ties in to what I realized is one of my big problems with the humor in the movie. The humor in Star Wars has always been laughing with the characters, not at them. Hux is reduced to a "look at this idiot" character instead of actually doing something with him and actually making it seem like he could stand up to Kylo.

Also, why go this route with a villain? Why choose to go for a cheap laugh instead of a dramatic antagonist that also ads layers to kylo.

Fuck disney with their non stop laughs. Imagine if disney made lord of the rings.

Gandalf: Fly you fools.

Aragon after contemplating for a sec to help the big G or not: Well, you heard the wizz guy, let's go.

I wouldn't mind Leia surviving in space if there were a reasonable explanation but Rian Johnson's reasoning was "because shes a badass muthafaka" i have totally lost all respect for him as a professional director and will boycott his trilogy!

[deleted]

The success of star wars films is predetermined these days. Unless they put out an utter bomb, getting overshadowed by some other big releases is no big deal.

Because nothing fucking happens! A movie that starts and ends at the beginning of the fucking race. Disney should’ve bit the bullet, fired Johnson and remade this ducking movie because if they continue to say “fuck it” than Star Wars is going to lose its momentum. A business that meticulously plans out marvel movies is shitting out Star Wars movies with no reason but money.

Because they have to fight in the next movie...

That's all I got.

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Having Rey turn would've been the biggest twist and shock in the franchise since we found out who Luke's father was. It also would've fit perfectly in the theme of having to leave the past behind and forge a new future. Rey didn't necessarily have to believe she was joining the dark side but be convinced that she and Kylo could join up to create something new and better. It really would've been an amazing risk for them to take, but I would've loved to have seen it play out.

I thought they were foreshadowing Rey's fall to the dark side with that scene where she goes to it on Ach To. I got that sense too. It's a bit of a meme but the biggest decisions in Star Wars happens to Luke and Anakin because they discover something about their families. Rey wanting to be apart of that and going to Ren would have made that scene actually powerful. Cause the identity of her parents at the end of the day doesn't matter, even though The Force Awakens really tells us she's really really special for a reason, but what she does with the information like Anakin does when he discovers his mother is killed and then tries to find a way to stop death itself is more important. The movie really drops the ball on this as well as Rey's past. She didn't come from nowhere. She had to be someone's kid.

I keep thinking of the scene in Autumn Sonata where Liv Ullman confesses to her mother all these horrible things, the hatred she has for her mother, and I wonder why we were denied a scene where Rey has that sort of catharsis.

That's what makes it a compelling decision, it IS what she should want. But her compassion for the relationships she's already built on the Rebel side make it so she can't follow through with his offer. Psychologically, it's much easier to stick with what you already have when you're faced with a particular decision. Not every human can tell what'll be best for them. Plus, there's no way she could trust Kylo with what he was saying. Yes he saved her life but he also KILLED HIS DAD.

As I recall Kylo Ren was still going to destroy the resistence as part of the "kill the past" thing, and that's what she took issue with.

I guess it's because, for inexplicable reasons, he is still hellbent on destroying the Resistance right that moment. I think it would have made more sense for him to let the puny Resistance go. Since he's let go of the past he also shouldn't be trying to kill his mother anymore, he doesn't need to, he has supposedly reached ascendance. And it was always Hux whose main focus is on destroying the Resistance, while Kylo has been primarily focused on his path of becoming, and Rey.

Especially due to Luke seeing how "willing" she is to fall to the dark side. Although in my opinion we don't really see her tempted by the dark side.

That is an interesting point. But Rey still holds her values and is still an essentially good person. She has people she cares about in the resistance and Kylo wants to destroy that.

Rey is on the Light side, whatever her reasons. She doesn't want to turn to the Dark side even if it is for benevolent reasons. She wants to bring peace, not rule with an iron fist.

"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely." -John Dalberg-Acton

Uh because Kylo Ren is clearly insane and goes against everything Rey believes in. Her excitement over meeting someone in the resistence (Finn early in TFA) and her awe at meeting Han Solo pretty firmly cement her as committed to the rebellion. Her hope was that Ben would join her but she has no desire to join the dark side. At the end when she's reunited with Finn we see that he and the resistence are her family. Esp when she and Poe finally meet, it's like in that moment, on the Falcon, she's home.

I mean Ben did kill Han, who Rey saw as a father figure. So essentially you're asking why Rey won't hook up with the guy that murdered her dad.

Like did everyone forget about Han dying or something?

If you look at the concept art books for the force awakens it’s clear that the story board artists had a more expanded and free form idea of this universe and really did a lot of stuff that would have expanded the universe and would have made for compelling imagery.

It’s just J.J. Abrams sort of cut all of the interesting stuff and kept it super super super simple, which is disappointing

I had a roommate in college that clued me on the novels post-ROTJ

Such a shame they didn't just adapt the books, with a few tweaks.

He projected through the Astral plane and then died from..... exhaustion?

Yeah what the fuck is that about? Not a huge Star wars fan so i haven't seen/read anything other than the films but for years I've heard how fucking incredible Luke is supposed to be from fans so i was pretty hype about a star wars film with Luke Skywalker in it. I feel so let down. Luke shoulda been The main character and focus of these films with Rey as the dumb noob padawan secondary character.

isn't the point that nothing could live up to that? in films none of the jedi have been shown to be able to take on an army head to head.

I just finished it myself. I would like to add:

Why does the First Order give a shit about 400 rebels? Are they annoying? Sure but in the grand scheme of things they're a drop in a massive lake.

The shitty OJ chase sequence.

The Finn/Rose plot that goes nowhere

Hackerman felt like a rip-off of The Keymaster from Matrix Reloaded.

The Leia flies through space thing which was nonsensical.

The Kentucky Derby at a Casino where they have "8 hours" to find this hackerman but they have enough time to talk about how evil the place is.

Why didn't the glasses woman just tell them the name of the guy with the red rose lapel?

If rose/Finn took a trip into lightspeed with one ship, didn't they have others? Why not deploy their transport ships earlier? Why not tell Poe? What was the secret? Who was he going to tell?

The shit Rey training montage. Those imperial soldiers should have kicked her ass easily.

Luke projecting through the Astral plane and then dying from.....exhaustion?

Luke being a total bitch the whole movie (needs to be repeated) It's Luke Skywalker! He should have been able to take out all those AT-ATs by himself.

Luke drinking blue milk from some aliens' tit? Really?

When the cruiser got ripped apart, how did the silver stormtrooper get thrown all the way through a doorway so that she could dramatically walk back through smoke in dramatic fashio yet Finn and Rose barely moved?

Deus Ex Machina when moment when Finn and Rose were going to die but we're saved last minute.

When did Benicio del Toro talk to The First Order commander? He was with Rose and Finn the whole time.

BB-8 in the AT-ST was cool.

Edit:. Need to add some more

What was the point of the Jedi tree and sacred texts? Where did that come from?

Chewie was a chauffer the whole movie and added nothing to the movie.

The OJ chase thing really bugged me. The entire movie was watching the cops chase the white bronco....really slowly.

When trying to kill the battering ram on the planet, Rose crashes into Finn. They were picking off every one of those ships 1 x 1 like they were flies yet Finn gets through even though he is by himself and Rose is able to knock him out which means she got through too? Also, how fast were they going? Those speeders didn't have airbags yet Finn was able to walk away basically unscathed. Rose had enough strength to sit up and kiss Finn right before she collapses? How did they get back so fast too?

If they knew that the FO wasnt monitoring for smaller ships, why not deploy the transport ships earlier? If they are transport ships doesn't it imply that they have lightspeed?

Rey spends 1/2 the movie asking to be trained but then rebukes the little that Luke has to say but she becomes a Jedi Master after some meditation and a trip to the LSD pit?

When Rose and Finn escape the jail, why wouldn't they put the lid back on the sewer tunnels?

reach out....

...with your feelings.

I immensely disliked the movie but i would disagree about Kylo Ren. He's the most interesting character in the new trilogy but also in the whole saga. He's a complex villain and i think Driver plays him incredibly.

Yes the rest of the movie is bad.

In TFA we just blew up their big base, yay we were heroes

Then in TLJ I guess it didn't matter Cuz they bigger than us and our resistance is small now . Hmm makes the blowing up star killer base kinda pointless now huh?

I bet next movie they bring back smoke, which would make his death in TLJ feel like a cheap gimmick

"Oh ha made u look!"

It's like what the walking dead is known for now, using cheap gimmicks and or cliffhangers

I was curious at how accurate these recollections were, until I remembered the TLJ Defense Force is never this coherent.

Spot on. These are the arguments that consistently get made by the film critics and pro-TLJ fanboys (as opposed to anti-TLJ fanboys aka most of us here in this thread).

They ignore that almost every reason listed is an ad hominem attack or logical fallacy rather than an actual defense. There are a few that are fair points....but only against the more rabid and extreme anti-TLJ arguments. Otherwise, people are just attacking because they're attempting to defend their emotional attachments. It's fine if they like the film. Just don't pretend it's well-written and that its dissenters are missing some finer point or hating for the sake of hating.

This list is too accurate. You are going to end up giving them ideas. It bothers me that you don't know the difference between your and you're though. Just nitpicking!

(36.) Bonus Reason: You're insane for giving that many critisms on a movie and need professional help.

(37.) Bonus Reason: You're biased.

(38.) Bonus Reason: You only hate on the movie because it is easier to hate on it than it is to love it.

(39.) Bonus Reason: You haven't given the movie enough thought

(40.) Bonus Reason: It's a kids film, so you should let your critcisms slide.

i shouldnt have to read the damn books just to understand the movie

This is kind of happening with Star Trek: Discovery in terms of something being more polarizing to fans than anyone else.

Cause Trek fans have given up hope to the point that they have embraced the McFarland knockoff.

First Contact was pretty good!

The Abrams movies definitely did — and were just as divisive for us Trekkies.

The recent films and Star Trek Discovery have created a massive fandom divide. As big or bigger than Star Wars has now

Just have them put Luke Skywalker in it.

I feel like Wrath of Khan and Undiscovered Country did and still do, with First Contact a distant third.

Oh God no.

!redditsilver

Like one thing Disney has been big on is being consistent and like movie was super inconsistent. Did anyone notice that? Like one of my major problems was that all the characters were being really OOC save for like Chewie and BB-8

I still enjoyed TLJ, and also TFA and Rogue 1 to some extent, but you are spot on with your criticism on Disney falling "flat." I'm not gonna say it doesn't "feel" like a Star Wars movie because they still do to me. But I agree with many that these films are missing Lucas's imprint. Hard to explain, but they almost feel too gritty and they lack that majestic atmosphere that Lucas was able to capture, IMO. I think Disney is missing Lucas's input, and I wish they were able to arrange something where he is still in charge of certain aspects of these films. Maybe I'm just spewing nonsense, but that's my take.

What makes it worse is how fervently people defend this film. They talk about how great Rey and Ren are and how they are excited to see the next film. None of them can give a detailed response as to what they enjoyed about the film.

Fire EVERYONE involved, apologize, and completely start over with a blank slate and maybe then will I go see another Disney Star Wars movie.

Execute Order Rian-6

Amazing analogy :D

Vader is Vader entirely because he is afraid!

Rose: Not Fighting what we hate, saving what we love

Finn: Thats what I was doing, I literally was sacrificing myself to save the resistance. They are dying in the background. Also Holdo just did the same thing to save the resistance, and Luke is about to do the same thing to save the resistance. What is the message here?

Holdo: because I said so.

That's not it. Poes message was that being a hero isn't about being flashy. In the first five seconds of the movie you see him act like the flashy resistence hero he's been groomed to be his whole life. He plays up to a part and associates brazen and risky action with heroism. Holdo and Leias message to him by the end was that sometimes you have to learn when to fall back or make a sacrifice to ensure the greatest survival of your people. Holdo sacrificed herself, and then on Crait, Poe ordered everyone to fall back even though you could tell he didn't want to. It taught Poe about what true heroism is. Finns lesson was that there isn't a "good" and "evil" in the sense that a defected Storm Trooper would think, and that there isn't moral retribution simply from switching sides when the coffers of the wealthy grow fat from conflict and the little people suffer. That finding meaning beyond wanting to end your enemy is key to winning the fight. When he was about to sacrifice himself, it wouldn't have done anything. He would have died trying to get a vengeance he'd never find, because by the time he hit the cannon he'd have been vaporized anyway, and you could see in his line at that moment, something like "I can't let them win" that he'd lost the meaning of what the whole fight was about.

I feel like you're simplifying poe's lesson a little. He sacrificed dozens of lives to destroy that drednaught. His lesson was to value life, and consider the cost of battle, even in victory.

Poe, Finn, and Rose's lessons all contradict each other at that pivotal moment. That was the point where I about threw up my hands wondering what the fuck this movie was supposed to be about because it just felt like a ton of disconnected scenes and ideas.

Different types of authority and roles?

To me it seems like, overall, you should respect the authority of those that, time after time, have proven to have your best interests at heart as well of those of the entire galaxy (Leia, Holdo), not to mention share your values and ideas but also challenge those who undermine you and continually show disdain for you (Phasma).

[deleted]

Whether it’s the prequel, sequel or original trilogy, there’s no right answer as to which Star Wars film trilogy is the best.

Uhmmm??? The OT set the bar and was the best obviously. The prequels fell short of that bar. TFA was a poorly done JJ rehash of the OT and TLJ ignored the bar and decided a dumpster fire painted with SJW themes would be more entertaining.

The fact that the director needs to continuously explain and defend so many elements from the film shows how poorly executed it was. He also seems to be clueless as to how flawed the film actually is:

“There’s nothing I’ve read or seen that’s made me think, ‘Oh god, I did kind of mess that up, I would’ve done that differently if I could go back,'” Johnson confirmed. “I still genuinely believe in all the decisions I’ve made.”

What an oblivious moron. If he can't even admit to basic logic and continuity errors then the next film is doomed.

Man, Rian Johnson is such a tool. Apparently, he thinks he's God's gift to cinema or something lol.

“There’s nothing I’ve read or seen that’s made me think, ‘Oh god, I did kind of mess that up, I would’ve done that differently if I could go back. I still genuinely believe in all the decisions I’ve made.”

Can somebody please compile all the most intelligent and well thought out fan-ideas and criticisms (and I guess there are hundreds by now) from these discussions and send them to disney/Johnson/Kennedy.

Hahaha but the internet is eternally at stage 2.

They killed the franchise with TLJ as far as I'm concerned. I don't even care what happens in the next one. They'll kill off Leia, Chewie, R2, C3PO and then orgasm because of all of the subverted expectations. Then Rian will start his own trilogy and it will go a little like this:

Episode 4/7/10: Orphaned child on an out of the way planet suddenly finds themselves on an adventure on the Millennium Falcon. The orphan then discovers the force is with them and teams up with the rebels against an evil mask wearing antagonist and their shadowy emperor. They then set off to destroy a Death Star.

Episode 5/8/11: After they destroy the death star the orphan will seek out an elder master on a far away planet while the rebels are suddenly on the run and find themselves on a white planet making a stand. Elder master will join the force as orphan returns to save the rebels. Rinse and repeat while Disney rakes in Billions.

Chewie will be bested in gladitorial combat by a Porg

They better fucking not

a lot of shit has to have happened where i go Meh about the Falcon, but I'd rather it got destroyed than everyone else killed tbh.

I honestly don’t know if this is parody or not.

That's what I thought after the first scene. I thought I had bought tickets to a parody by accident. Nothing since then has convinced me that this wasn't a parody. How else do you explain the RT score, opening week box office and raving reviews.

why park on the beach on the Casino Royale planet. Of course that would be illegal!

Rose doesn't know what parking spots are.

Why not just tell Poe what the plan was?

Because he's a mean little boy!

Super Leia was utterly embarrassing

It was a disappointment to her memory.

Why Luke wasn't force-teleported himself into Snoke’s chambers and cut the heads off of Snoke, Huxx and Kylo

Or why doesn't Yoda force lightning Snoke while he's blowing Kylo