๐๏ธ KforKaspur ยท 218 points ยท Posted at 02:48:05 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
So in magic the gathering there are viable decks that use the discard mechanic, there are a few mechanics in place to minimize tempo loss when you discard, Magic has selective discard as well as random discard, I think hearthstone should have the two as well. Look at a card like Succubus, 2mana 4/3 discard a RANDOM card, what if you took away the random aspect? It would see a lot more play and still have a downside, now look at a card like Doomguard this is an example of a card that needs random discard to be balanced, if you could choose the cards you discarded it would ensure you could keep your power overwhelmings for lethal and make doomguard more consistent. There are other mechanics as well one being Madness where you can cast a card and have it still count as a discard, sometimes madness saves you mana on cards and you GAIN tempo from discarding them.
All im trying to ask is why can't hearthstone have both? There is a deck archetype clearly still being worked on with the release of Malchezaars Imp and its clear blizzard wants it to be a thing, I personally think with the inclusion of selective discard it CAN be a thing, even without any more synergistic card releases.
TL:DR// What if you could choose the cards you discarded for some of the discard cards?
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Waphlez ยท 360 points ยท Posted at 02:52:40 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Because Blizzard uses "random" as a crutch so they can keep the UI as simple as possible. It's why we don't have choose multiple targets, or abilities on minions that you manually activate. Instead we get random targets and Inspire.
TukeDuke ยท 119 points ยท Posted at 07:14:07 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
So Blizzard may not want to change UI more complex for the sake of better gameplay. Fine let's leave it as simplistic as it gets. But why on sweet earth does every random effect have to be fully random?
Imagine if Succubus said: "Discard your highest mana card" Bam! Strategy involved. Imagine if Doomguard said "Discard 2 spells." A little bit of creativity compared to always full random.
But no, always full random in EVERYTHING. Play Doomguard, randomly discard your other Doomguard, looks like the tournament prize money goes to another person.
brianbezn ยท 51 points ยท Posted at 09:22:56 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
doomguard is pretty strong, why should they make it stronger?
the advantage of the randomness is that you reward or punish players that understand odds and taking risks, randomness makes the game more entertaining/takes longer to get you bored, at the cost of sometimes not having the best player as a winner. See it like this, if you played confessor and always spawned a 5/5 games would get same-y a lot sooner than getting a random legendary. The flip side is that sometimes you are winning by a little against a weaker player, get a cho and lose the game.
As it is a card game randomness will always exist, so it is like a slider on how entertaining and how competitive do you want the game to be. Any option is valid, the hs team went down a path that favours entertainment a lot more than most card games, and it might be the reason for their success. So if you don't like getting screwed by randomness there are a lot of games that have a lot less of it.
[deleted] ยท 40 points ยท Posted at 10:03:27 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
His doom guard response probably wasn't a good example but I also think they could make discard be less random without adding a bunch of UI
brianbezn ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 10:08:25 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
i feel that randomness and "hand manipulation" is considered a part of the discard theme in this game, if they want to make discard good they will make their strengths (tempo/initiative) stronger rather than removing weaknesses.
[deleted] ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 13:21:10 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
brianbezn ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 13:29:46 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
but it is less entertaining, and the dev team of hearthstone values entertainment a lot higher than most card games at the cost of competitiveness
MizuhashiParsee ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 19:55:13 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Nah, discard's RNG isn't entertaining. It's just "man if I discard this one specific card I'm going to throw my laptop out the window".
Thunderkleize ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 20:26:40 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Well, if it were me, I probably wouldn't be playing random discard cards if 25% of the time I had to throw my computer out a window. That seems like not such a great risk-reward scenario.
ZeusAlansDog ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 13:47:02 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Plus the cards are overstatted to compensate for the unpredictability. A 5/7 with charge should not cost 5 and allow you to pick which cards you toss. Hell, it's easy enough to work around as is.
brianbezn ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 13:54:03 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
if they let you choose the cards the only way people wont start complaining about warlock is if they remove charge, and without charge that card is so much more boring
ZeusAlansDog ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 13:55:04 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Yep. I think the moral here is that someone is always going to complain about something.
asdfsdf2f23 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:52:08 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
That kind of randomness isn't particularly entertaining though. It never feels good for the player playing the discard, and the person on the other end rarely gives a shit either.
SERGEANTMCBUTTMONKEY ยท -24 points ยท Posted at 10:51:55 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Stop wasting your energy m8 the "DAE rng=bad because raynad hates knife juggler xD?" is way too strong on this sub.
brianbezn ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 11:02:15 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
i feel people should know what they would be giving up in order to make hearthstone more fair and competitive, and every answer is valid as long as they know that. Reynad knows that, and he talked a couple of times about it, of course he and competitive players, logically want the game to cater their desires, which is fine, but people sometimes people just say randomness is bad because all the big competitive players usually don't like it.
Redd575 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 18:07:33 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
IMO this is where MtG has the advantage. For folks like me who enjoy complexity and interactions MtG is just the more diverse game. Partly because the nature of it vs HS and partially because it has had time to mature.
Overtalk ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 14:13:04 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
There are examples of not totally random RNG. For example, Enter the Coliseum.
ateter ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 11:04:58 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I think something like that might be coming in Karazhan.
Radiodef ยท 31 points ยท Posted at 04:01:03 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It's funny because all the random effects actually contribute to making the game obscure and complicated to understand.
_MadHatter ยท 10 points ยท Posted at 04:49:36 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
How so?
Radiodef ยท 64 points ยท Posted at 05:10:50 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Probability is notoriously hard to understand intuitively. More math makes the game more complicated.
ICAA ยท 10 points ยท Posted at 07:30:07 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It doesn't though. That statement is only true for players who try to think ahead. Casual players can understand very well what the word random means and how the card works. They don't need to work out the math beforehand.
ciberciv ยท 22 points ยท Posted at 08:13:08 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Being a casual player doesn't mean not trying to win, and an understanding on basic probability at least makes it way easier. Turns out statistics is the less intuitive part of Mathematics, even at a basic level
Fyrjefe ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 21:40:05 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
complicated != complex. You guys might not be arguing about the same thing, here.
Kratos982 ยท -18 points ยท Posted at 08:15:59 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Probability is not really hard to understand. Its not like any random card in HS follows the Gaus distribution or some pseudo-random distribution. They are just RANDOM. You intuitively know how to increase your chances of a good outcome. Mathing it out doesnt really make a difference, its just RANDOM after all.
colgatejrjr ยท -6 points ยท Posted at 09:03:40 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
AFAIK Blizzard has never confirmed that every random effect is uniformly distributed among all possible outcomes. (Nor has any player gathered a statistically significant sample of various effects to test them?)
antm753 ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 11:12:16 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
"The next card/minion/spell you play costs 0 and is discarded instead of played"
Xayde1994 ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 20:13:16 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
this is actually a smart and realistic way to implement non-random discard
antm753 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 13:09:25 on August 5, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It can also either give you the option to discard or force you to, depending on whether the effect lasts until end of turn or just until the next card you play that game, like with Dragon Consort.
brianbezn ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 09:12:45 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
you have to consider hs is available in phones, to make it feel good you'd need a complete overhaul of the ui
Megido_ ยท 27 points ยท Posted at 10:17:25 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Play card with discard. Black screen edge effect, dark card shimmer, 'choose card to discard'. 'Play' card you want to discard, it flies into the middle and explodes.
Is this really some stupidly complicated thing? Obvs discards that could happen on your opponents turn need to stay random but this deck is always going to be really swingy if its 1/x chance of discarding something important or 1/x chance of discarding something that summons itself for massive tempo.
brianbezn ยท 13 points ยท Posted at 10:28:54 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
well, remember when we didn't get the extra decks? it is the same game we are talking about.
[deleted] ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 20:34:51 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Sometimes it feels like simple negligence on the part of blizzard. They don't design anything in the entire company with future updates/features in mind.
Look at the appear offline function in battle net. Blizzard is one of the largest and most successful game devs IN THE WORLD and we will never get that function because they decided to cut corners when they designed battle net.
Schelome ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 10:42:52 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Well, I think the positioning matters cards like cone of cold or betreyal were meant to be the response to multiple targets. But that idea had its own problems and seems to have been mostly abandoned. Which leaves positioning cards in a really weird legacy support state.
TrollingPanda-_- ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 16:11:08 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Why dont we have "deal 3 damage evenly split among all enemy characters" cards?
Morgoth788 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 18:53:52 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
because 3 damage can only be evenly split among all enemy characters when there are 1 or 3 of those, any other case would not work because HP has no decimals in Hearthstone
TrollingPanda-_- ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 19:18:36 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Well I mean as best as it could I guess. So if there are 2 people, it could hit 1 place randomly.
Xayde1994 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:12:42 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
that is a more complex description
one of the key characteristics of this game is how simple card texts are (their interactions could be insanely fucked up, but that's anoth topic). you may not like it, but that's probably not going to change
TrollingPanda-_- ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:27:10 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Cant they make cards like flame juggler a choice then? Battlecry deal one damage would make me a lot less pissed than battlecry deal 1 damage to a random enemy minion. The whole RNG effect of it makes you salty when it hits the right card, but nobody cares when it is a choice.
Xayde1994 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:51:29 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
sure they can, but it would be too strong
antm753 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 13:21:59 on August 5, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Why not "deal 8 evenly split and rounded down"?
No enemy minions -> 8 damage to face
1 Minion -> 4 damage Cobra Shot
2 or 3 minions -> Consecrate
4 or more minions -> 1 damage Consecrate
There, a scaling aoe or reach spell. Now give it to priest, please! Pally already has Avenging Wrath RNG!
Jjkiiii ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 17:50:03 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Arcane missiles
pcs8416 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 18:09:45 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
That's not what Arcane Missiles does.
[deleted] ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 11:10:22 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
3 mana 1/5 "You always discard the leftmost card"
1 mana 1/2 Battlecry: "Scramble your hand"
There. I just enabled Discardlock.
snuffrix ยท 9 points ยท Posted at 13:52:40 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Scramble your hand isn't nessecarily OP, but it's a bullshit mechanic that ruins peoples reads.
fonse ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 15:18:37 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
/u/kibler's favorite mechanic.
[deleted] ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 13:53:50 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
The main idea was to use them together if you want to change the leftmost card if it's something high cost that you really need to save - you can.
snuffrix ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 03:21:25 on August 5, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Yeah, I understand the idea, just suggesting a draw back to that kind of design.
varyl123 ยท -2 points ยท Posted at 14:22:12 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
In most tcg you can shuffle your hand. Why not in ccgs?
1fiercedeity ยท -5 points ยท Posted at 14:43:41 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Who's reads? If it screws up your opponent's read on your hand it is great in my opinion. As for yourself, you have all the info needed to play around any outcome.
rydor ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:13:34 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Lot's of UI's read for you. Very helpful to know if he's been holding a couple of cards since turn 1.
snuffrix ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 03:22:37 on August 5, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
No, you lose important info. If you're asking who even reads then you have no high level experience and no understanding of the importance of the mechanic currently. Watch Thijs and Firebat, they count cards on stream all the time. They narrow down pretty accurately what the opponent probably has in certain sections of their hand based on reads, and position lets them keep track of when these reads get played.
1fiercedeity ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 03:58:02 on August 5, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
I would welcome the ability to return some secrecy to my hands with open arms. I'm sure high level players could adapt just fine. I don't watch streamers, but that is only because my dying laptop can't handle 1080p anymore and I find it impossible to read the red on red health values at less than 1080p. =(
If you are afraid of every deck running shuffle cards, which I think is a valid concern, it could always come with a drawback like being a spend all your mana card
And I guess I phased things poorly. Instead of who's reads I sold have said "Are you referring to your opponent's perception of your hand, or your own strategizing."
snuffrix ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 12:16:57 on August 5, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I'm not afraid of decks, let alone every deck running that type of card. I just don't think it's an interesting mechanic. It's a crappy function for the person who does it, for a cost of being really annoying for your opponent for no good reason. Like, no one wins.
How exactly do they adapt to a play like that? You literally just do without. I can't read their hand effectively and then that's it. That level of skill is gone and the benefit to the game as a whole is my opponent got to control their discard in a stupidly clunky way, or they don't draw the right card and they did it just for no reason. Even if it used up all their mana it's still stupid. It's just crappy design.
1fiercedeity ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 13:27:48 on August 5, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I see what you mean. By adapt I had control v. Control in mind in which they may still continue go hold on to the card(s) for several turns, which would give you time to reassess which cards they are.
Fake_Credentials ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 00:02:08 on August 5, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Those are some shitty mechanics and cards.
Deepandabear ยท -8 points ยท Posted at 05:39:51 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Discovering cards allows choice.
frostedWarlock ยท 20 points ยท Posted at 06:02:28 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Discover uses the same UI as the mulligan and Tracking.
Deepandabear ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 07:15:40 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
How does this make my point any less valid?
vonBoomslang ยท 13 points ยท Posted at 07:39:16 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It's a UI made to handle 3-4 cards, not 10.
Shinigami936 ยท 17 points ยท Posted at 08:03:38 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
They don't even need a new UI. They can just give a red border to the cards in your card to indicate you need to discard, and to discard you just drag a card onto the board like normal.
Deepandabear ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 12:18:10 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
But you can still design a card that allows this mechanic, just 3 cards chosen at random where 2 will be discarded. It would be similar to tracking, but from the hand and not the deck.
Philliphobia ยท -2 points ยท Posted at 09:43:16 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
isn't that how zoobot will work though?
[deleted] ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 10:04:42 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
No zoobot is random
naryn ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 11:42:00 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Zoobots random.
viluns ยท 15 points ยท Posted at 07:19:18 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I think it's because it's in the core design on the game. The game was meant to be simple so in can be easily (and swiftly) played on mobile devices. I did wrote about that yesterday on in this subreddit. - Rose-tinted glasses
Otterly_Delicious ยท 40 points ยท Posted at 03:30:22 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
There is a card that lets you select which card you want to discard. It's not a warlock card though. The hunter card "Tracking" lets you see 3 cards, draw one and discard the others.
Deepandabear ยท 14 points ยท Posted at 05:41:44 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
This is the closest thing yeah, unfortunately they don't activate discard mechanics because the cards are discarded from the deck and not the hand.
kagantx ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 18:39:01 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
That's not really discard, It's card selection. The cards you lost were never in your hand.
siirka ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:08:35 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
But they're not in your deck afterwards.
Ghasois ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:10:47 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Discard doesn't mean from your hand. Magic just uses that way. Other games call the graveyard the "discard pile" or something similar to that.
Shoulderraven ยท 25 points ยท Posted at 08:10:28 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
How about, "Discover a card from your hand to discard" gives a choice of 3 random cards from your hand and you can choose the one you want to discard. It works with the current UI and gives a little more control over the discard mechanic.
Or maybe a mid range or legendary card with changes your random discards to "Discover a card from your hand to discard"
Edit. Have it only work if you have 3 or more cards in hand cause im not sure if discover allows 2 or 1 options
Eatnofoodbutrice ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 13:41:50 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I'm pretty sure it would allow two as that's exactly what Raven Idol does.
vegarrr ยท -4 points ยท Posted at 15:11:26 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Not true. Raven Idol gives you a choice between a minion or a spell. But you get to pick between three minions or three spells when played.
greg_kennedy ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 16:08:04 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
He's saying initially, you are presented with a choice of two "cards": discover a minion, or discover a spell. So the UI still works with two cards.
vegarrr ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 17:38:03 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You are right. I misunderstood, my bad.
Edit: but tbf that's the choose one mechanic and not discover, isn't it?
KKlear ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 09:08:26 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Eh, it's still kind of clunky.
Alexbrainbox ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:55:07 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
A rewrite to make it a bit less clunky:
Battlecry: Discover a card from your hand. Discard it and keep the others.
helix400 ยท 22 points ยท Posted at 07:08:34 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Hearthstone is intentionally kept simple. It's a baby MagicTCG.
What you're requesting is an advanced feature well beyond where the designers want the game to go.
๐๏ธ KforKaspur ยท 9 points ยท Posted at 07:13:38 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Ah I can imagine that would be the case, it can't hurt to want though. Who knows maybe one day.
romagia ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 11:49:11 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Non-random discard doesn't strike me as a particularly advanced feature.
Zalaiya ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:38:34 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Keyword, particularly. When we deal with Blizzard, we have to deal with Fischer-Price levels of simplicity, unfortunately.
asdfsdf2f23 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:58:30 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
They have cards with much, much more complexity than what it would take for that.
Stalking_your_pylons ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:09:56 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Warning: Boom Bots may explode.
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 16:20:13 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Hearthstone has been around for about 2 and a half years MtG has been around since 1993. In both games every set brings new mechanics and slight variations on old mechanics. Of course there are going to be things "missing" from hearthstone. You need to keep design space open for future releases. I am sure at some point we will get more effects that deal with cards in hand.
helix400 ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 16:38:38 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
The format is one problem. Magic works well in a table format, it allows you to do all sorts of things you can't easily do online. Instants is the most obvious example.
Hearthstone is intentionally dumbed down for a cell phone interface. 7 minions max per player on the board. 10 cards max per hand. No graveyard. No enchantments. No selective discard. No tutoring. No hand disruption. Johnny cards are rare. Just to name a few.
The other problem is Blizzard's target audience. They intentionally keep the game simple to serve them. So it's just minion combat on the battlefield, not much more. Hearthstone will always be a baby Magic TCG, because that best serves the largest audience that gives Blizzard money.
Makaronas21 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 16:37:58 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
"advanced feature" it's not even close to an advanced feature just another simple mechanic mechanic
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 18:34:12 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
MasterGaltar ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 01:07:15 on August 5, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
To be fair, that's more of a factor of the completely incompetent UI design on MTGO. It is a fine game to play online, but since it is a direct port of a paper TCG, it's quite a bit harder to do anything unique with animations on cards, or voice lines, or what have you, just because they would have to retroactively apply the changes to literally tens of thousands of cards.
Fen1kz ยท -16 points ยท Posted at 09:33:51 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
yeah. let's not request features at all, silently sucking blizzards cock. good idea!
Exormeter ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 10:53:14 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You don't minimize tempo, you minimize card advantage. 4/3 for 2 mana is pure tempo, but at the cost of two cards.
rtwoctwo ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 14:02:01 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
Whenever someone asks for new mechanics for Hearthstone, I always come back to this, and not just for discard.
I want a card that says, "Battlecry: Give a Minion in your hand +1/+1."
Or a spell that says, "Target spell in your hand costs (0) for this turn only."
And yes, then you could add, "Discard target card in your hand."
EvilCheesecake ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 16:49:31 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I don't see a significant difference between your second suggestion and Preparation. Your spell lets you cast cards in a different order but doesn't let you Auctioneer into a spell to reduce. But they're so close that I don't see the benefit of adding such a similar card to the game.
rtwoctwo ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 18:54:11 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Sure, but that was just an example.
Imagine something like a 3/3 minion for 4 with: "Battlecry: Give Target Spell in your hand "Freeze all enemy minions." So now you have a body AND a "free" Frost Nova.
The are a huge number possibilities when you start thinking about it.
EvilCheesecake ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:18:59 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Isn't that the same as adding a Frost Nova to your hand that costs 0, unless they have a Counterspell up, when it's even worse?
Targetting cards in hand is a cool idea but you're not providing good ideas for how to use it.
rtwoctwo ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 20:20:51 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It's not the same at all.
For one, you acknowledge that there's a difference when interacting with Frost Nova.
For two, suppose you give the Frost Nova effect to a Fireball, but find yourself having to use the Fireball to clear a single minion; the Frost Nova is wasted. A 0-cost Frost Nova could be used EXACTLY when you need it, every time.
And, again, these are just ideas that pop into my head. I'm sure the guys who actively design cards can think of different implementations.
EvilCheesecake ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:33:59 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I agree with you that there are gameplay differences but I disagree that any of those differences are interesting enough to add a complex new mechanic to the game over just making a similar card using existing mechanics.
Ditocoaf ยท 9 points ยท Posted at 03:15:28 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I wanna see a card that says "Whenever you discard while this is in your hand, lose the leftmost card instead of random". Or something to that effect.
It'd add a bit of strategy to hand manipulation, which could be really interesting.
UristMcGold ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 17:46:11 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Wouldn't see play, probably. Only if it has very good stats ,if it's a minion or some sort of really good bonus effect, if it's a spell.
chumppi ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 12:30:25 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I believe we'll see these features in the future, as well as searching through your deck and graveyard.
IceBlue ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 16:33:47 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I would be okay with selective discard IF it was a required. In other words, you can't play the card unless you have a card to discard.
Jjkiiii ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:28:07 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
This^
RaoulWolfoni ยท 18 points ยท Posted at 03:25:35 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Because in Blizzard's book, fun = random.
SERGEANTMCBUTTMONKEY ยท -21 points ยท Posted at 10:48:49 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Yeah how would Blizzard ever get the idea that randomness makes a game more fun seeing how there have been ABSOLUTLEY no successful games ever that involve random chance right? Jesus Christ the anti rng circlejerk on this subreddit is so fucking stupid.
Bohya ยท 11 points ยท Posted at 10:57:23 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
RNG can be fun when taken in moderation. Blizzard goes full overboard with it and it end sup making the game overall less enjoyable for people over the age of five.
anrwlias ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 19:35:06 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
There's a lot of echoing in the chamber. Really, the people who have the most at stake on this issue, which is to say pro players, are the smallest segment if the audience but, because they are the most visible and vocal players, they are able to influence the perceptions of "serious" gamers who fancy themselves as mini-pros. But, yes, the RNG hate gets very overblown. Fortunately, Blizzard seem to understand that vocal positions aren't necessarily healthy positions.
EvilCheesecake ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 17:02:14 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
There are games that use randomness to create a positive gameplay experience but there is already randomness in deckbuilding games: drawing random cards.
If you want a game where skill in deckbuilding and play is rewarded, you have to carefully control the average and maximum power of your random effects, because if you don't then games will be decided by randomness often enough that skilled players won't play your game due to their inability to control their win rates through skill.
Hearthstone's developers have shown with their game design decisions that to them, fun random moments are worth the cost of lessening the effect of skill, and while the game has retained a number of skilled players despite these designs, it has also lost potential skilled players over them. Adding more random elements, especially with higher variance, is going to tip that balance towards driving skilled players away.
jnpg ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 06:01:07 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
what if, they're currently designing cards that state- "you choose the cards you discard". this would allow more people to play discard, because now you have a choice. i just hope they keep it rare or something so it doesn't overwhelm.
V-nagandr ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 06:15:50 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
That would just further dilute the deck with minions that need to be in play for you to be able to play your overstated Discard minions. Are you going to wait for turn 6+ to play your Doomguard just so you can choose what to discard (by that point, you might not even have any choices anyway) or are you going to play Doomguard when you need it on turn 5?
Would you play this new minion just so you can drop Succubus on turn 3 and have a selective discard? That ends up being a rather bad play because you're essentially just playing an Injured Blademaster that also discards a card. You can argue that you can now play Succubus + 1 drop, but eh. It doesn't seem worthwhile at that point and you'd have to assume you have the new minion + Succubus + 1 drop + turn 1 play. It just wont work for how aggressive the current Discard cards are designed.
Funny_Monsters_40 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 10:05:46 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It wouldn't take anything away from what Discardlock has now, and in my opinion adding more levels of strategy as you described is always a good thing, no matter what the deck.
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 07:16:24 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I think if it is introduced it shouldn't go to warlock, it doesn't feel chaotic enough. Maybe it should be a shaman or mage mechanic or neutral. I would also love to see a return mechanic where you don't discard the card but add it it your deck, probably in druid. There is so much unexplored space in this game and that is good, it makes me hopeful for its future!
FourWindsMagi ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 11:01:37 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted] ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 12:04:09 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Synergy isn't everything, classes have a certain feel and warlock feels chaotic and out of control, they act with their eyes only on the intent without thinking about the damage caused and are willing to take some pain if it furthers their goals. The reason I said shaman and mage is they try to control themselves in the face of the uncontrollable, they know what they are doing will have a toll but also control themselves to mitigate or direct it.
FourWindsMagi ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 13:53:58 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
that is very flavourful, and I like your reasoning. It makes a lot of sense thematically, I just think that a warlock legendary could do really well with an effect like "you may choose your discards". Other then that your point is very well thought out.
_oZe_ ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 08:25:59 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Discoverard!
Fashion_Hunter ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 09:14:04 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
"Discard the card to the far left or right of your hand" and just make it pop up on screen like discover.
Nnekaddict ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 09:54:59 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Right now, I'd say, it'd be way too strong to select the cards you discard since there are cards that are useful being discarded. The randomness makes it so the mechanic is a risk where you want to rely on it while not being 100% sure of the outcome.
Bohya ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 10:55:37 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Because it's to make the game simpler. Brain dead simple...
Dimecang ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 17:18:41 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Tracking
how-doesthis-work ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 03:31:21 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Streamlines the process, arguably balance reasons (soul fire and doom guard would have been even better)
Maybe they'll make a card with battle cry: you now choose what to discard for this game.
Obviously the discard mechanic would be much much better if you could choose what to pitch.
V-nagandr ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 06:09:43 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
The OP does mention that certain cards should remain with the random discard (like Doomguard), but a card like Succubus is just terrible without selective discards.
how-doesthis-work ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 06:20:41 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Thanks for pointing that out, glossed over it a bit.
I'm not sure where a card like succubus or dark bargain would fall under competitively if you can choose what to drop. My concern would be the cards catapult from really bad to amazing with something like fist. A 2 mana 4/3 that deals 4 random damage would be a nice turn 2. Of course there's no way to know for sure. While testing I think it would be quite a bit more difficult to decisively decide which cards are bad enough to have controlled discard and which aren't.
V-nagandr ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 06:31:34 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
4 random damage with a 2 mana 4/3 might be too strong; it's hard to tell without actual practice, since it requires two specific cards, one of which is dead without Discard outlets and it might end up hitting something irrelevant anyway.
Dark Bargain would probably still be too bad. We don't see Assassinate get any play and this one costs 1 more mana, also costs 2 cards, can only be used if there are 2+ minions, AND it's random.
I think Blizzard should just take the leap and make a new keyword in the next expansion and try it out.
pisspotato ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 11:42:58 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
That would make discardlock pretty powerful, choosing to discard fist of jaraxxus or the newest card that gets played when discarded. Turn 2 succubus + that minion would be pretty op.
pisspotato ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 11:43:23 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I think it will become a 2 cost 7/6
K-Radack ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 11:49:31 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
If you could selective discard then you could play Malchezzars Imp on Turn 1, Succubus on Turn 2 and discard the new Silverware Golem, summoning it, AND draw another card. 8/9 worth of stats spread across three bodies on Turn 2 with zero downside is a bit ridiculous. Although this could still happen with the random discard effect, just less likely.
Hito_Z ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 12:18:51 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You want to put players into control of the randomness, what madness is this?
I do agree this needs to be implemented. Don't know if the devs are lazy, the tech isn't there yet or they just haven't thought about it.
My pick is the tech/UI issue. With the current tech I'd solve it with part of the Discover mechanic, if a card required you to pick and discard 1-2 card from hand. The problem is that when you play a card that requires some interaction before it resolves, it can't hit the board otherwise your opponent sees it before you decide what to discard and maybe you changed your mind and don't want to play it. By using discover mechanic you put desired cards to be discarded into the slot. The number of slot changes based on how many discards are required for the card to be played. Also, the card can't be played if you don't have anything to discard so that is also a downside which makes it balanced.
I made a mockup UI to give an easier illustration of what I meant. In that picture Void Walker would go into a slot. Depending on what card you play the number of slots could be increased/decreased so there's no confusion of how many cards you need to discard.
tlmadden_73 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 13:22:05 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I think they could have it, it would just have to be cost appropriately.
RANDOM discard should give you a bigger effect then selective discard.
If Succubus is a 2 cost 4/3, what would a selective discard version of it be? 3/3?
Soulfire is a 1 cost - do 4 damage. What would a selective discard version of it be? 3 damage?
Hito_Z ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 14:10:34 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
or it would just be a 2 mana 5 damage discard a card. here's the thing though, if you have selective discard you can't use those cards if there's nothing to discard. So it's a balanced downside.
tlmadden_73 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 14:39:08 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Hmm .. good point. This would be a good alternate cost structure along the lines of "Need a dragon in hand" and "Pay life" and "Overload"
I think Hearthstone could use some more alternate cost structures.
ryanmts ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 13:24:40 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
This game seriously need some UI updates to handle cases like this. Also, multiple targets.
Not having these options really eats a big portion of the design space IMO. And it's not impractical or confusing to do, really.
5-s ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 14:46:46 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Just come over to magic and play some Innistrad limited. One of the main decks in that draft format is madness right now, I just played a discard type deck this past week to great effect. You're not going to get this type of game play in Hearthstone, it's not meant to be as complicated as Magic.
mezzir ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 14:54:41 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Same reason we don't have effects like tapping in M:tG - keeping the UI as simple as possible. That said, I've thought for a while that you could make that work for non-targeting effects by dragging your minion to your hero. So like if the effect name was Channel (your hero channeling through a minion? Idk) you could have a minion that had 'Channel: freeze a random enemy character.' which you could activate instead of attacking, or just attack as normal. also now that I think about it, could call it Defend to make it a lot more intuitive what you have to do to enable the action.
EpixAura ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 15:53:29 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
With the newly released card, selective discard would be too broken. Imagine a turn 2 Malchaazar's Imp into Soulfire to summon the 3/3, destroy the enemy 2-drop and draw a card. Any low-cost selective discard would likely be too strong, even if the card effect itself was very mediocre, and a high-cost discard card would just get discarded before it could be played.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 16:15:51 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
If the game keeps going for 10+ years it probably will be a thing.
Think of all the mechanics in MTG that did not exist the first few years of the game's existence. You can't do everything immediately. You need to have mechanics to expand to and explore in the future.
Luraman ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 16:17:20 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
How about a battlecry that targets cards in your hand instead of minions? Wouldn't be clunky and could be used for more than just a selective discard.
StachTBO ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 16:41:52 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Selective discard would be perfect. It would give the game so many new options and create further strategy that has been lacking with all the randomness of late.
reddituser101010 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 16:56:57 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
T2 4/3 Battlecry: Summon a 3/3. Really?
Discard would be incredibly broken if you could choose what to discard.
Fitzbattleaxe ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 16:58:02 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
What are you talking about? Discard always hits Jaraxxus.
powerplayer6 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:54:31 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You misspelled [[Power Overwhelming]] :^)
hearthscan-bot ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:54:51 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
1 Mana - Give a friendly minion +4/+4 until end of turn. Then, it dies. Horribly.
Call/PM me with up to 7 [[cardname]] PM [[info]]
facetheground ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 17:02:04 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
A card that would let you Discover a card from your hand to discard would be a way to go without messing up Blizzards UI.
z0m813 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 17:39:06 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Soulfire: Discard a card that isn't Soulfire.
Natgeochan64 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 17:50:54 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Because if you could choose what cards to discard they'd have to nerf all the discard cards. Warlock at least the way I see it would be very very strong.
LilGriff ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 17:56:34 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Perhaps keeping an element of the randomness and still give some sort of choice is making discard operate like [[Tracking]] or Discover: 3-4 cards from your hand are randomly selected and you choose one to discard.
hearthscan-bot ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 17:57:05 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
1 Mana - Look at the top three cards of your deck. Draw one and discard the others.
Call/PM me with up to 7 [[cardname]] PM [[info]]
xSTYG15x ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:33:25 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Because they want it to be a more casual game. They think RNG = fun, and thinking/strategy = not so much fun.
ItsDominare ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:01:13 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I'm going to stop you right there. These games are not comparable.
Fapple_ ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 05:20:26 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I think part of the problem would be the stat lines. If you look at succubus for example, if you allowed the player to choose their discarded card, it would instantly become a staple in zoo and let them snowball even faster. The reason it doesn't see play is because losing a random card really sucks.
If you were to lower the stats to compensate for the ability to pick the discarded card, the card might be more along the lines of a 3/3, possibly a 4/2.
A 2 mana 3/3 with selective discard probably wouldn't see play, but a 2 mana 4/3 with selective discard would be insane.
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 07:19:00 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I dont think succubus would see play regardless. The issue with 4-3 is it dies to 3 damage, and that is every 2 mana spell and 3-2 minions which every competitive deck has.
Lexeklock ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 07:09:45 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I don't think even at 4/3 with selective discard it would see play.
Totem golem is good because it's hard to deal with in the early game because 4 hp.
On the other hand spending 2 cards, no matter what to have the minion be traded by a war axe or a 3/2 is sill not good enough.
I might argue that 1 card is more precious than 1 overload because for zoo, 1 card costs 2 life and 2 mana. The only difference is that you pay overload cost right away, while you can play other cards as zoo and pay the cost later in the game.
๐๏ธ KforKaspur ยท -2 points ยท Posted at 05:47:03 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Yea but in zoo, you're losing ammo, cards are crucial in any deck, especially one that runs low cost cards and usually plays more than 1 per turn which leaves that at a deficit already, let alone paying an additional card just to play another. I feel that discarding a card is about as balanced if not more so than totem golem and its overload.
Youreat3 ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 06:49:06 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I don't think I've ever seen zoo run out of ammo.
priestqq ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 08:13:17 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
So you have never played any control deck ever?
Youreat3 ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 09:59:16 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I mean, their hero power ensures they have at least two cards to play a turn and that's of they are topdecking. That's why all zoo is good as it is.
priestqq ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 10:03:48 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
If you have board control and your opponent is only drawing low value cards late game. Then its irrelevant whether they draw one or two they still still not have enough steam. Zoo is not a lategame control deck so it HAS to end the game in the midgame.
priestqq ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 12:42:57 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Also, stop downvoting me just because you know nothing about zoo...
Youreat3 ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 13:57:06 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Lol
FlamerBreaker ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 11:37:19 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Simply put, because selective discard would be too strong. Randomly discarding from your hand is the cost you're paying for playing cards with incredibly good tempo. You make a great play, but you risk losing something.
If you could also select what you discarded, the cost be incredibly minimized and it would be even more overpowered than the overload mechanic in the current meta. You would discard some bad card and then refill your hand from the hero power or cards that allow you to draw, every turn.
You would be playing above-tempo minions for no cost.
NiandraL ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 08:15:14 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I never saw the point in discard decks because either you're getting rid of stuff that might be good or you intentionally put bad cards in your deck as fodder which also seems terrible
I still wouldn't want to play a discard deck with your idea but I think it's pretty good and better than the current implementation
Talsorn ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 10:49:34 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You would never put something in that's "bad" over something that's "good" as fodder. As long as you intend to win by the time you get through your entire deck, the quality of the cards you're discarding isn't really important. All that's important is that you don't run out of gas, and the new 1/3 Imp should hopefully help keep your hand from drying up.
hilariouslijah ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 09:09:14 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
The technology just isn't there yet.
[deleted] ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 16:56:37 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Technology isnt here yet, will confuse new players, etc.
DreamInvoker ยท -6 points ยท Posted at 05:28:52 on August 4, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
People rope out on turn 3. The average HS player is not quick witted enough to make decisions like these.