It's actually armistice makes the arms grow stronger
mhatt ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 02:18:26 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Your take makes sense. OP's take, on the other hand, doesn't. People don't start acquiring a taste for children as a result of abstaining from normal sexual relations with consenting adults. This is worth pointing out because this catchy little slogan draws attention away from the real problems that led to abuse: e.g., too much trust in authority figures and institutions leading to lack of accountability (and to attracting perverted people to those positions), and systemic coverups designed to protect individuals and institutions (at least in the short term).
It really is. I've never seen so much bitterness as any time Utah or Mormons are brought up on reddit. I love living in Utah, I love living in Provo, and the Mormons here are generally pretty great people.
Itagu ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 00:30:14 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Honestly besides my husband's ex wife and her family, and as an atheist, Mormons tend to be cool and helpful people. Oh and missionaries when you say that you are atheist . They don't like that.
I'd imagine a lot of states are that way. Everyone bitches about it but most never leave. I'm totally in that category because I have all my family here and then I'd just be bitching about another state. But I'm happy here either way so it's all good.
I live in Indiana and back when Pence made the law about businesses being able to deny service to anybody they want it was a shit show on reddit. People came out of the woodwork claiming that Indiana is some unlivable shit hole, which it's not.
Sure, it's not the perfect state, but it is a great place to live and has a lot of great reasons to stay. And as you said, I've lived in multiple other states and you just find other things that you can complain about in any state.
You don't hear a lot about Indiana to be honest. It tends to mostly stay under the radar. Out of curiosity, what makes Indiana a great place to live?
ElKurto ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 21:34:42 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
The state government functions. Local citizens are pretty involved on local government. State economy is relatively solid and is diversified, so the boom-bust cycle of particular industries doesn't ruin the whole state economy. We have some of the best universities in the country: Notre Dame, Purdue, Ball State, Butler, and (obviously) Indiana University. Auto racing was basically invented here. Many other reasons.
My gf is from Fort Wayne. I'm from California but have spent a lot of time all over Indiana from Bloomington to Gary to Martinsville to Elkhart (yeah everywhere). Let's just say it's all a matter of perspective.
u/ElKurto covered it pretty well, but it's also nice to be within driving distance of so much. It's the center of the Midwest, so Chicago, Indianapolis (obviously), Cleveland, Cincinnati, Detroit, Louisville, Milwaukee, and Saint Louis are all within a reasonable driving distance away.
I've lived in multiple towns in Indiana and they have been very caring communities and welcoming. It was just a good place to grow up and my wife and I plan to raise our kids here as well.
You can find decent food. Most of Utah valley is Mormon. SLC and park city are much less so.
Mormons aren't bad people. I've left the church, but my two closest friends out here are Mormon and are really good people. Some of their ideology is harmful to others, and the theology is inconsistent and doesn't hold up to the archeological, historical and scientific evidence we have, but it's like everything else.
There are good people and bad people of varying degrees in it.
I'd disagree with the other answer you got. Food is probably where Utah suffers the most. It's not a very diverse place and I feel like most 'ethnic' restaurants cater to the taste buds of the mormon population (think funeral potatoes and casseroles).
But the outdoors are incredible and there are good people.
Nope.
It just doesn't compare swishswish. There are 5 korean bbqs, a ramen bar, a jewish deli, and half a dozen taco trucks within a couple minutes of me. I'm spoiled now.
Betos, Cupbop, Red Iguana, Blue Plate Diner, Greek N Go, Bruges, and Davanza's still have my heart though.
edit: I'm in California
oussan ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 08:00:14 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Mmmm... Cupbop. Truly, Utah does not have enough Korean food, but I love me some Cupbop!
I dunno. I've been to Thailand and other places and there are a couple good eating establishments that are pretty authentic in Utah county, though you've got to do done driving to get to each one.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 02:02:08 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
TBH, if you tell them straight up "I'm not interested in Mormonism," then you might not be able to tell the difference between Mormons and regular people minus they don't drink and their sex jokes are masked to look like it's all in jest.
Unlike Catholic girls, many Mormons really are innocent virgin types though, so getting laid is harder.
Unlike Catholic girls, many Mormons really are innocent virgin types though, so getting laid is harder.
That's not been my experience. List my virility to a rather persistent LDS girl, and some of my out of state friends have success with the Poophole Loophole and the Provo Float when they're out here.
Of course, YMMV.
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 05:52:01 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
some of my out of state friends have success with the Poophole Loophole
Yeah, I don't buy it. That's 100% myth. No Mormon has ever used that. As far as their church is concerned, even being naked in the presence of someone else is just as bad as sex, and they don't have levels of bad for sex, with vaginal being the worst. I've lived here my entire life and the only place I've ever even heard of that was from out of staters saying it's totally a thing here.
Provo Float
This one especially. "It's not sex if we don't move, so we don't have to see the bishop." Mormons believe that you have to see your bishop if you have particularly sexually thoughts about specific people. I don't think the Mormon float flies.
If your friends are telling the truth (hint: they're not, which is sad in itself) then it's more than likely a non-mormon girl who also believes that shit and thinks they're getting off doing it with a Mormon.
I know a couple LDS guys who've used both of those. My girlfriend and a couple of other female Mormon friends went and confessed to the bishop that they'd had premarital sex. The two that did oral, etc had to wait a year before they could go to the temple again and had to tell the bishop everything they had done sex wise.
The one who just had penetrative sex only had to go a few months, as did another female friend of mine and my old roommate because they got into some heavy petting and grinding. There is definitely a scale, though where the stuff a person does falls on that scale changes from Bishop to Bishop.
Yeah their teachings regarding that stuff are strict, and obviously it's a rationalization that doesn't technically work, but people use it. Just like you can go to a bar and find mormons from a couple towns over there drinking so they don't get caught.
People are people, and Mormon, Catholic, or Buddhist there are going to be those who break the rules of their religion and they aren't necessarily going to tell their Bishops about it.
Edit: context
zeronexx ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 21:42:08 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
There's no getting around the Mormonism. I had TWO separate groups of people solicit at my door just yesterday, pushed pamphlets through my door and knock endlessly. Food is the worst of any state I've been to. Only good things: stuff is pretty cheap, but so are the people; everyone feels entitled to EVERYTHING and they'll get mad and blame you when you deny them what they think they deserve. I would say if 100 IQ is average, Utah average is no more than 80. Only come here for the view, but always have an escape plan; this place is NOT for living unless you're brainwashed by Mormonism and fine living with the absolute WORST drivers ever.
Truth be told it's a fine state to live in. Great food can be found throughout Salt lake valley, especially downtown and Sugarhouse. Lots of fun bars downtown. Tons of things to do outdoors. Low crowds when shopping on Sunday's. And Mormons are super nice people even if a little judgmental.
All and all I love living here and I am not Mormon.
zeronexx ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 23:08:43 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Guess I'm not allowed an opinion. So glad you are though! No wonder you live in Utah.
He insinuated you were a negative person, then provided positive life experiences that countered your comment. How is that him stopping you from having an opinion?
Then you go on to insult the state again, proving his remark on your negativity. Are you sure it's the people around you with a low IQ? You've heard the saying "if everyone you meet is an asshole, you're the asshole", no?
[deleted] ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 00:55:19 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I've already decided. You're an extremely negative person, and it comes off in the way that insinuate that the people disagreeing with you are "dumb" or "brainwashed". Utah isn't perfect, but it's a damn good state and there are damn good people living here.
[deleted] ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 02:40:25 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
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[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 02:47:14 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
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[deleted] ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 03:17:31 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Having an opinion that negative doesn't automatically make a person negative or a pessimist, it can be drawn from observation and facts which I have done to conclude my own opinion of this place. I'm moving in six day and am VERY excited to be going to a better state. Peace friend.
Nor really. I get disgusted looks for smoking, but no more than I got in California or Australia, and if I ever find a dude I like banging enough to ring, gay marriage is legal and most Mormons that disagree with it do so in silence. I even had a couple out managers at my last job, and the only reason one got any hate was because she was a bitchy meth head. But that's Walmart for you.
I live right off of campus in Provo and BYU students are some of the most entitled people I've ever known. I feel oppressed just driving through campus.
THANK YOU. I'm a former catholic as well and I've always side eyed people who blame the vow of chastity for the pedophilia in the church. I think the church attracted pedophiles to begin with bc of the way they would turn a blind eye. Somebody who isn't a pedophile isn't going to suddenly become one if they are abstinent (if anything I'd think they would just seek out a prostitute).
[deleted] ยท 13 points ยท Posted at 23:44:35 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
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[deleted] ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 00:53:54 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Well done, Father-to-be. In seminary now?
Jordoom ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 01:01:31 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Thanks! God willing.
Nah, still discerning, but pretty strongly leaning towards it. I've only been Catholic since Easter 2014, so it might be a little longer yet, since that's like the bare minimum of time that most seminaries will accept you.
I'm currently a little torn between the Jesuits and being a diocesan priest, but I'm leaning more towards Jesuits and am in early talks with the vocations director for the Jesuits here in Canada. I've got an interview coming up soonish.
rosts ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 02:25:34 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Well, shouldn't we expect the priesthood to have much higher standards?
Shouldn't God effectively weed out the shitstains from serving him?
If you're no more moral than anyone else, why should we bother with you?
Jordoom ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 12:47:47 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Well, shouldn't we expect the priesthood to have much higher standards?
Absolutely we should, and that's kind of what I was trying to say when I said, "one instance is one too many", etc. In the Bible, Jesus says that if anyone would prevent children from coming to Him or causes them to stumble (and certainly, a priest betraying trust in this terrible way would fit that bill), He says, "it would be better for you if a great millstone were fastened around your neck and you were drowned in the depth of the sea." This isn't necessarily a literal proscription for the death penalty for pedophilia, but it does display the anger, heartbreak, and seriousness that Our Lord would feel towards these people.
However, today, the Catholic Church is perhaps the gold standard when it comes to child protection and abuse prevention. The Church has trained millions and millions of priests and adult volunteers to recognize signs of abuse and to prevent abuse. Millions of Catholic children have also undergone age-appropriate training in this area, thanks to the Church. There are now independent annual audits, and the Church has worked with child welfare experts, child psychologists, and abuse experts to continue to address prevention.
Enough cannot be said about the courage of those men and women who suffered abuse from their priests. It is by their coming forward that this has come to light, which has lead to all of these prevention methods being put in place. They've literally saved lives with their bravery, and I do not know if we, as a Church and as a society even if you're not a member of the Church, could ever thank them enough.
Shouldn't God effectively weed out the shitstains from serving him?
No. This is an example where human free will comes in. The Catholic Church is generally much more "picky" about who it ordains (which does sort of exacerbate our "priest shortage" here in the west, but most bishops and vocations directors seem to think that is a valid price to pay to ensure the sort of spike that happened in the 60s-80s never happens again.)
If you're no more moral than anyone else, why should we bother with you?
The Church is Holy by virtue of being wedded to Christ. It is He who makes her holy, not the fallible men and women who make her up. Additionally, it is a Christian tenet that all men have and will fall short of the glory of God. The existence of sin, even terrible sin, in the world and in the Church, is an evidence for our need of a Saviour, not against. I'm not trying to convert you, merely answering your question with what I genuinely believe, but you should "bother with" the Church because she was hard-won by Jesus Christ on Calvary.
Saying that it does helps the church promote a sexual deviancy narrative that allows child molesters to go unpunished and homosexuals to be unjustly persecuted.
FTFY
rosts ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 02:19:40 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I think it's two things. Pedophiles become priests to get easy access to children, but I also believe a few priests will molest boys from nothing but sexual frustration.
Look at some Muslim countries. Women aren't allowed to show any skin at all, and men aren't even allowed to interact with them. So what happens? Bacha bazi. A bizarre child prostitution where the boys dress like women to arouse the frustrated men.
Ahaha, it's so bad, it looks like a dairy company logo.
[deleted] ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 19:38:22 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
The new one? Nah, it's pretty cool. That's a particular Mountain that the city sits under. It's really quite a sight. I don't live there but it's a nice drive through.
You got me wrong, what I mean is that the vexillology behind that flag seems ridiculous and over elaborate. Usually, in flags, mountains are represented with triangles, that's not a flag design, that's a Logo design fit for an enterprise located in Provo.
A good flag should mostly be simple, easy to identify at a distance and overall elegant in simple shapes.
This is a bit ridiculous, but if it was voted by the people, well, my opinion is meaningless, I don't even live there.
[deleted] ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 19:51:24 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
โIf I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.โ
gainsaw ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:01:33 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It reminds of the Shout triple action stain remover logo
neogod ยท 9 points ยท Posted at 22:15:22 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
They've got google fiber. That automatically puts them in the top 5 best cities in America. I've seriously tried to convince my wife to move there, but we already live in Utah. It's a step up if you're coming from anywhere else in the state (besides St George, maybe).
I grew up in Utah and never had any issues with Mormon friends. No one judged us. No one said they weren't allowed to hang out with us because we weren't Mormon. The bad part was Sunday's when none of or friends could go out and play, but for the most part it's not as bad as most people believe.
Sorry I thought you asked where for some reason. Yes it's salt lake county
Jubguy3 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 21:39:19 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I had a friend who went to Davis high school who was not mormon and she got bullied endlessly. I am lucky enough to live in salt lake city, I know like maybe 10% mormon kids.
[deleted] ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 21:19:41 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
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๐๏ธ greeperfi ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 22:08:49 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
If you have a family Orem is a great place to live; it's very family oriented though a lot of the socializing is church related. Utah and the Salt Lake Valley is awesome especially if you like outdoors. People are friendly though the Utah Valley (Provo, Orem etc) is a little cliquish. NonMormons sometimes find it difficult getting ahead in a company where their management is Mormon because there is a strong church bias. I find the people here to be warm and friendly. Salt Lake is much more diverse so if Orem is too homogenous for you, it's not too bad of a commute.
It's just a very homogenous area, lots of Mormons, very little diversity. The Mormons seem to live in this bubble and if you don't fit their mold it can be a pretty lonely place.
If you're Mormon and you enjoy the company of mormons you'll be fine. Otherwise it's a pretty difficult place to grow up but the real estate is cheap and the skiing is good.
It's lonely unless you find other people that aren't mormon which honestly isn't that hard. Source: lives in Provo and works in orem
neogod ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 22:23:30 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
It's not nearly as bad as the rest of the state. You'll get your typical Mormon sensibilities and weirdness, but nobody will judge you as long as you don't make it obvious that your not lds. I live in a small community (300 or so people) 140 miles from Orem and the church has their hand in everything, my son can't play with most kids his age because their lds parents won't let him and my work schedule is created so that I get no holidays or Sunday's off because I don't go to the church. They have been, very politely, trying to blackmail my family into becoming lds.
Orem is the absolute shit compared to most of Utah, and you've got more than one In and Out Burger and are near Google Fiber, so your internet should be pretty great.
Edit
My advice is this, don't curse in public, be kind to and at least talk to the missionaries when they come to your door (me and my wife feed them because the church makes them pay for their own food and they are usually young and without money), and just try to be a good person. You'll probably never get harassed.
jaeke ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 04:27:35 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Small town of 300 what town? I'm from Goshen so about 30 miles south of Provo.
Remembering to PM me and I'll help you move in and buy you lunch. There's great people everywhere, there's just a lot of crappy people around them too.
So many missionaries. And all your neighbors inviting you to church. And being talked about behind your back. Also, bad drivers, but besides that it's pretty nice.
Source: Have lived here for 10+ years, and a ex-mormon
Then you're about to be a stranger in a strange land. That opinion will be unpopular, and will work against you.
Utah (and Provo or Orem in particular) are VERY different culturally then Seattle. People there talk a lot more and are far more socially conservative then up here. It's a different vibe, a different set of ideals, and if you go into it wrong, it can be painful.
[deleted] ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 22:12:55 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Those last four will help. The rest are going to be interesting. Kinky is fine, just keep it quiet. Those other three will get you ostracized if mentioned in the wrong group or context.
Send me a PM, if you like, and I'll give you a better idea of what this culture is really like.
Lol, It's really not as bad as people make it seem. Orem compared to Provo is "ghetto", but every place has an area like that. Act like you belong and you will.
Only time I'd really worry about this segregation everyone is talking about would be at your workplace. Even then it's still rather rare.
Their church does still play a roll in local politics, unfortunately. Even then, it's nothing life altering lol.
Let's see... if you're planning on attending school, don't even bother glancing at BYU if you're not LDS. Besides, UVU is better cough.
If the religion is one of concerns... it shouldn't be, lol. You will occasionally meet the extreme on the spectrum ofc though :P
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 22:15:27 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Well, maybe ghetto wasn't the right word lol. The pockets of older residential areas just look... unkempt I guess. I've never feared for my life, or felt unsafe.
Though he says don't even glance at BYU it's the reason Provo is what it is and Orem is a mostly older town that doesn't have nearly the amount of development.
I visited provo a few months ago, the thing that weirded me out the most was that every single couple had like 5 or more kids and where like 20 years old. I feel like the gave up on recruitment so they're just breeding followers.
The Hooper/Clinton/Roy area isn't bad. I'm just hoping that's Kent's is still having a sale on their Best Damn Apple Ale, because I'm a cheap alcoholic.
Update: Best Damn Apple Ale $10 for a 12 pack.
Ben_ji ยท 11 points ยท Posted at 17:01:40 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I honestly don't get this. I've been in Provo multiple times. They're nice people. They don't go walking around preaching and judging like everyone likes to make it seem. It's a nice place.
That's precisely the difference. I lived there for 6 years while my wife and I were going through college and were still in the church. Even when we were Mormons we thought Provo was awful. Then we realized it was all a cult and the atmosphere of that town just got worse. Provo residents in general suck.
Worf65 ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 23:45:24 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
As a lifelong Utahn I might be able to explain. They're very nice people on a professional or causal just passing through level. If you live there you quickly discover that they are highly judgmental and uptight. If it was just a small fraction of the population you could just let it go and not care but when its nearly everyone you meet it gets very difficult. I've had attempts at going to see movies with coworkers ruined because the movie was PG-13, its very difficult to have an event where there might be alcohol without scaring everyone off. They won't let their kids play with nonmember children and they don't date non members (again they are "nice" so they won't tell you that's why but the innocent little 6 year olds who haven't learned to lie yet will admit that its because you don't go th the same church). It can be a very isolating experience living here as a non Mormon.
Yup I'm exmormon and I'm still friends with a lot of mormons who don't know I don't believe. it's hard because I can't really be open about it without potentially harming my relationships with them. Mormons, especially Utah mormons, tend to socialize only with people in their church.
Worf65 ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 02:35:23 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
tend to socialize only with people in their church.
This is why I've basically never had a social life. Their lives revolve around church and various church activities.
I literally have no clue what you're talking about, besides the alcohol. I live in probably one of the most Mormon cities in Utah. (Like 95% Mormon). All my buds go to R rated movies all the time. people date outside the church all the time (though it's just for fun and nothing comes of it).
Ever been a designated driver? Drinking isn't fun if you're the only one not drunk.
Worf65 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 14:14:03 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It sounds like you've managed to find a healthy amount of Jack Mormons where you're at. The one most worried about movies at a previous job was a 29 year old man but all the Mormons in the group had similar concerns for several pg-13 movie suggestions and I was the only non mormon from side of town at work, 30 miles from any of the others so an after work event nearby was my best bet but it was always derailed. The vast majority that I've met are very strict on those things, especially the dating. They only date to marry so they only will date a non mormon if they think they can convert them (or I've met a few who will go on first dates so someone will take them out and pay for everything, then break it off citing the church, no they didn't do this to me but the pattern was pretty obvious). I also wasn't talking about places where they could be the only one drinking, I was talking about events where it might be common for it to be an option but not drinking focused, like having beers at a BBQ.
I'm an non Mormon living in Provo. Yes the place is beautiful but are Mormons really that bad
Doesn't matter how crazy their religion is the people are the nicest and most kind to people I've ever met. No one has ever talked me nor pressure me into the church ever. The amount of kindness put me into a great environment and is actually one of the reasons why I am out of depression. I have no clue what you guys are talking about, the people here are harmless.
Salt lake is awesome! There is a ton of cool things up there to do. And I find that the people up there are pretty easy to deal with compared to the people in Utah valley.
Edit: I got a bunch of messages that put the heat on me because they thought I was talking about people of the LDS faith. I was speaking about people in general. Over the last couple of years of living here, I have noticed that people are generally self-absorbed and apathetic towards others... Regardless of religion or such things. I think that its just the culture. That's just my opinion though.
[deleted] ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 16:51:39 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
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4trevor4 ยท 12 points ยท Posted at 17:45:21 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Living in Logan is alright if you are fine with being a hermit.
I've been all over the world thanks to the military, I visited American Fork in 2010 when I got out of the military and decided that this area of Utah is one of the nicest areas I've ever been to so I decided to up and move from Pennsylvania where I'm originally from. Living here spoils you, I think that YOU need to travel more to realize how lucky you really are.
I was just down there for the Cruz rally yesterday, I was in AF but moved to Ogden last year so I'm pretty used to the non-Mormon folk again. I forgot how rude the people of Provo are, same goes for AF tho.
edit: i should add that i don't support Cruz, i actually just went because my grandmother wanted to go.
[deleted] ยท 12 points ยท Posted at 22:27:11 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
For people out of the loop. The Mormon Church recently issued a new policy forbidding the children of gay parents from being baptized. Before 1978 the Mormon Church prevented Blacks from having the priesthood, which in turn prevented them from being able to access the temple, which in turn prevented Black families from being together in Heaven. The Book of Mormon Teaches that black skin is a curse and a sign of sin. The Church and modern prophets teach that our skin color is a direct sign of our obedience in the preexistence and is a direct indicator of our capacity to progress. Meaning white is best. Black is not. The church is also incredibly sexist, delivering sermon after sermon on the progression and path of a man and his eternal life but having almost NOTHING regarding women. The mother in heaven is not to be spoken of or talked to and the men marry multiple wives for the eternities to populate their planets. A women's role in the church is to disappear.
The Church proactively whitewashes its own history and by its own words into a more "faith promoting" version of history. This results in the members being incredibly ignorant in regards to the actual history of the church such as not knowing the book of abraham is not a literal translation as admitted by the church, not knowing that Joseph Smith had multiple conflicting accounts of the first vision, and for it supposedly taking place in 1820 not a SINGLE record by anyone is to be found regarding this claim to see god before 1832. Not even his journal or parents or anyone in the town or anywhere. Also the Priesthood restoration claim first showed up in in 1834, 4 years after the foundation of the church, they backdated the story to 1829 to make it more believable. Joseph Taught a trinitarian view of the godhead and it evolved over time. Also he married other women who were married to the tune of 34 wives. one of which he forced by telling her that an angle with a flaming sword threatened his life if she did not marry him and he promised her and her family eternal life and exaltation if she did.
Members are controlled in everything we do. To doubt is to fail. To question is to sin. They have actively taught at General Conference and on sundays to avoid researching church issues. It is a cult. We had suicide pacts in the temple prior to 1990 where we mimed slitting our own throats rather than reveal our handshakes we took from free masonry to get into heaven. My secret name is hyrum and by telling you that i can't be with my family in heaven.
A brief summary of issues with the Church can be found here: Letter to a CES director. Other than the letter the Debunking section is a masterpiece of investigation and critical thinking against members of FAIR who develop apologetic arguments and support for the church.
Jopomo ยท 33 points ยท Posted at 22:50:25 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
I used to be Mormon, I grew up in the church and know it very well, not just the doctrinal teachings but the actual attitudes and realities of living in a 90% mormon community in Utah. I don't believe in what the church teaches, I don't believe in any god. So believe me when I say that this guy is getting REALLY radical with this post.
There's a weird trend for people who leave the church to get really vocal and extremist about opposing it, which I think is kind of ironic considering these are the same things they reject in how the church operates, so let me try to address some of this stuff with a more rational outlook.
Denying blacks the priesthood (basically a fuller type of membership in the church) was the church's policy until the 70s. The church addresses this history openly, I had a few Sunday school lessons about it. I'm not trying to defend it, because it is clearly a hypocritical practice and was an early evidence for me that the church is not infallible, but it was a product of its time. In the twenty plus years I lived immersed in the church I never once heard anything disparaging said about blacks. The church doesn't have a good track record with equality, but there is no real racial discrimination at play there, at least not where I grew up, and some high ranking members of the church are black or even African natives. I've never heard anyone claim skin color has an impact on your ability to progress, just that it's a reflection of the choices of your ancestors.
The church's teachings are inherently unequal as far as gender goes, but the church by no means draws women as a secondary partner. The teaching, at least in modern times (it was probably a huge deal more sexist back in the days of polygamy, a really seedy part of the church's history) is that women have a role that is different but no less important than men. They are equal partners with different responsibilities, which is why marriage is crucial. Is it a little sexist? Yes, but it doesn't come off as at all discouraging toward women. Hell every general conference (the big semi annual address to the church as a whole) has a few women speakers. I've known plenty of female mormon business owners, my direct family among them, all very confident empowered people who would probably reject something that felt like it was disparaging them.
As for Joseph Smith, it's pretty up in the air. He did a lot of questionable things and likely told a lot of lies, but records conflict and the history is murky. The church is sure of their version of events, as is the parent comment here, but it's far from clear what the realities are in a lot of cases. Joseph Smith was definitely a polygamist though, and I highly doubt the bulk of his claims. The church has a really gray history in my opinion.
Members are not overly controlled. They pay a tithe of ten percent, which is admittedly steep, they abstain from alcohol, drugs, premarital sex, and a few other things. They regularly attend church. Other than that, they are free to live their lives as they see fit. I didn't leave the church because I felt restricted or like some kind of prisoner, it was a matter of belief. That kind of doubt is, by the way, accepted and even encouraged. Church authority figures advised me to find my own answers, and didn't react badly to my decision to leave.
Basically, like any major organization it has a sometimes sketchy history and some sides to it I'm not fond of, but the mormon church isn't some big secretive organization out for power and wealth. I think it's run and maintained by basically good (if misguided IMO) people. I don't support it, but I hate it when people paint it out as this evil force of religious authority. If you focus on the negative of any group, it looks like a horrific perversion. Reddit is a site with racist subgroups that often condones abuse and persecutes the innocent, but we don't embargo the site. Lets not fall into straw man biases.
ArTiyme ยท -2 points ยท Posted at 02:06:15 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
We have the documents to show that Smith was convicted of Treason and Conspiracy of murder, Inciting a riot, Glass looking, and there are more things he was charged with but fled. The only thing miraculous about him was his ability to escape from custody but I imagine he had help. So he was a pretty shitty guy.
Probably included in the official Gospel Library app. Hot links you directly to any Reddit comment thread that hits /r/all and has /r/exmormon posters in it so you can do your part to fight evil by hitting blue arrow buttons. Truly we live in a marvelous day and age when the machinations of Satan can be thwarted with the click of a mouse.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:35:14 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I love my church and I will say this: my life is nothing without my faith. What do you accomplish by attacking the Lord's Church? Or any church for that matter? You only further the Adversary's agenda, and fall deeper into your own misery.
I spent 15 years outside of the church and then returned. My story is much like the prodigal son. I have tasted both walks of life. I am very happy with what the Lord has done for me after I returned to the Church.
I have many life experiences that have given me testimony of the divinity of the Church. You should leave the church alone because it has only done good for many, and there is much in the world which would wish the light of good be extinguished and tarnished.
As if that was what the Church wanted when they laid out their policy. My question is: why are same sex couples sending their ward's to a church they can't conform to? The whole purpose of the church is to perfect the Saints. Their parents obviously don't want to follow the prophet if they want to have same sex marriages.
Gay people aren't "sending"their kids, they would be allowing them.
Why are Catholics sending their wards, or Baptists, or atheists, or smokers or drinkers or petiole who had or have premarital sex or what have you? Because some missionaries dropped by and taught the kids, or their friends invited them or any of a thousand other possibilities, the kid decided to join, and the parents decided to let the kid pursue what they believe in.
Also, there are quite a few people who believe the teachings of the church are true, except in the case of the teachings regarding homosexuality just as there are those who believed the teachings were true except in the case of the teachings regarding black people.
Check out the August 17, 1949 First Presidency message, or these scriptures in your book of Mormon, or this from the Eternal Marriage manual, or this, or this.
Or maybe you're talking about men still being sealed to multiple women in heaven? Talk to your bishop and ask them if a man can be sealed to another woman if his current wife dies or look up hire many wives Dallin H. Oaks is sealed to. Look up how many wives Joseph Smith Jr. had in life, or Joseph Fielding Smith or Heber J. Smith.
No he's not. Go look up the stuff I linked and mentioned, or look up the things he mentioned, or read the cited material on the race and the priesthood essay or the essay on polygamy.
ArTiyme ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 20:34:05 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
See, you call him bitter, but you seem to be awfully defensive about criticisms of LDS. I mean, you'd think if your beliefs were really that sound, they could stand up to criticism without your feelings getting hurt. And it's not like he's lying. It's not exactly a secret about how racist the Church was or how shitty of a person that Joseph Smith was and they he was clearly a con-man and invented the Church to gain power. You guys all know that and still believe it for some reason.
He is lying. And your perception of Joseph Smith is wrong. Joseph Smith was a prophet of God and restored the Church of Jesus Christ. And his legacy continues to grow today.
ArTiyme ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 22:11:45 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Yeah, I could ignore history and pretend Hitler was just an artist, but it doesn't make me right. Same thing with Smith. He was a liar and a cheat, incited violence, and abused women and children. He was a terrible terrible person.
Oh yeah sure, if I had a mob strip a baby out of my arms and tar and feather me you would call me abusive too?
ArTiyme ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 22:27:32 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Well, if you abused women and children, yes I would. That's why I call him an abuser, cause he did. Regardless of whether or not you had a bad experience that doesn't change what you've done.
ArTiyme ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 22:42:51 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Well you could just look up his extensive criminal record. But wait, there's more! There was Fanny Alger who was likely underage, and his 30 other wives, some of which were as young as 14, and his wife spent her life denying that he was ever polygamous, so he was cheating on her. So there are more than a few forms of abuse including spousal abuse and child abuse and pedophilia. And that's a very incomplete list. If you do any kind of research you can find out all sorts of things. But I doubt you will because you prefer ignorance.
Yeah because everything that you read online is true, isn't it?
ArTiyme ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 22:51:29 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Wow. Could you be more hypocritical? Your criticizing my research which has evidence behind it, while saying you believe a guy found some gold tablets and talked to god because you read it in a book and the only evidence is that he claimed he did. You're fucking delusional.
I do not have to bring proof to a discussion of Faith. Faith is the belief in that which is unseen but which is true. I am better for it.
ArTiyme ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 23:07:51 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Faith is gullibility. It's not a virtue. Every religious person has faith that they are correct, and you can't all be. So either most of you are wrong, or all of you are. What's more likely? That you just happen to be taught the correct religion out of thousands of potential other beliefs, or that you're part of the 999/1000. Just saying statistically, you're probably wrong, and from an empirical standpoint, you're most definitely wrong. And you buffer that with "faith" and pretend it's ok. It's not.
This was the very basis of Joseph Smiths question to God... which Church is right? Christ answered that none were that were then on the Earth. Christ then restored his Church through Joseph.
So by my faith, I believe that in post 1830 Earth, The Church of Jesus Christ of LDS is the only true church on earth... although many churches have a portion of the truth.
Pre 1830 it would have been the Church christ began in Judea running to the death of the apostles, and prior to that it was the Jewish faith Prior to Christ's advent, and prior that it was the Israelites who followed Abraham. And prior that, those who followed the prophet patriarchs leading after Noah, and prior that it was those who followed the teachings of Adam and his righteous posterity.
Ever one else will have the chance to hear the Gospel in the spirit world after they have passed this mortal coil. There they can still choose to follow Christ, but they cannot do any further works of Righteousness, but will be judged according to the knowledge which they did have while on Earth when they were alive.
So we are that 1/1000.
ArTiyme ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 23:25:48 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Every single religious person can make nearly that exact same argument and claim they are the 1/1000 too and they'd be just as correct as you. So really, you're just claiming that every religion is the 1/1000. And if that's the case, the ones that say Smith was a blasphemer are totally correct, which then invalidates your religion. So you've got a huge problem.
Every other religion is an off shoot or sect of another establishment.
Mormonism is pretty original.
ArTiyme ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 23:34:49 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
...what? You just listed a bunch of religions that you're an offshoot from and then claim originality? Hell, not even the book of Mormon contains much original material, it's just stuff from the bible. Not to mention just because you guys are "original" by claiming that Jews made an impossible journey and Black people are cursed, it's not always a good thing. Because you know, impossible and racism.
You haven't read the Book of Mormon then, or any other books the Church has produced.
ArTiyme ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 23:38:47 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Not most of it no, but I know the figure. And no, I wouldn't read what the Church produces. I already told you that it was founded by a liar and a con-man, why would I listen to people who hold that person in high regard? That would make me an idiot. You don't take neo-nazi's very seriously because they think they are correct.
In that case, I should just say "I have faith that Joseph was a fraud". According to you, that would absolve me of any need to provide proof.
But since that line of reasoning is bunk, we will provide evidence. Joseph coerced women by telling them an Angel had commanded him to marry them, saying that if they did marry him that they and their families would be assured a place in heaven, but if they didn't the Angel would return to strike him down with a flaming sword (check out Helen Mar Kimble's diary).
He sent men on missions and married their wives while they were gone. In total, he married 11 women who already had living husbands:
*Lucinda Pendleton Morgan Harris
*Zina Diantha Huntington (Jacobs)
*Presendia Lanthrop Huntington (Buell)
*Sylvia Porter Sessions Lyon
*Mary Elizabeth Rollins Lightner
*Patty Bartlett (Sessions)
*Marinda Nancy Johnson (Hyde)
*Elizabeth Davis (Brackenbury Durfy)
*Sarah Maryetta Kingsley (Howe Cleveland)
*Ruth D. Vose (Sayers)
*Elvira Annie Cowles (Holmes)
You can confirm a good bit of this using the sources cited in the LDS.org essay regarding polygamy.
Also, Hitler killed millions. And you compare that to Joseph smith?
ArTiyme ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 22:33:09 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
No. I was just saying that I could also ignore history and pretend that Hitler wasn't so bad like you're doing with Smith. I was just demonstrating your ignorance using a simile, which is taking two different situations and using them comparatively to highlight something about the other. I'm only explaining this because you apparently need it literally spelled out for you.
I know what a simile is. Your pride is what drives you to attack something that you don't understand. You attack the prophet of the Lord and say he is evil. But you have no proof and no basis for such an attack. Joseph Smith has done more for our world we live in now than you realize due to YOUR ignorance. And Satan pulls your puppet strings to entice you into attacking what has only been a good influence on the world, and a man who has seen the very God who you are made in the image of. One day you will have to answer that God for the words you write now.
ArTiyme ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:46:05 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
ArTiyme ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 23:05:14 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Likely is was a process over around a billions years before a simple type of RNA formed from organic materials found in shallow water that could reproduce and evolution took over from there. It's not been proven, but that's the only explanation that works from what we've observed in nature.
Then why do you exist? Or do you believe your life has no purpose?
ArTiyme ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 23:15:21 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I exist because I can, and my purpose is whatever I make it. If you claim you have a higher purpose than that, you're just making assumptions and asserting it is true and that doesn't make it true at all. Any other purpose that you claim is imposed on you by some divine being is just something you believe exists, you can never demonstrate that you actually have that purpose.
I appreciate your honest answer. But I choose to believe that we are sourced from the divine. And that we have a divine future if we live worthy of it.
ArTiyme ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 23:29:23 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Look, having beliefs is fine. But think that a con-man, murderer, conspirator for murder and thief is the person you think your god would choose to relay a divine message means you think your deity is rather incompetent. I sure as hell wouldn't choose that guy, it would (and does) discredit everything that leaves his mouth. Based on that fact alone you should call bullshit on Smith and his story, but you have many more other reasons that I already gave today to realize that Smith lied to you and you're just gobbling it up.
Sounds to me like you have your own issues to deal with.
As I said, my church has turned my life around. That is proof enough for me.
ArTiyme ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 23:35:42 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Whatever it sounds like to you is irrelevant. And maybe your church did, but you've seen the evidence of what a horrible person Smith was. You can't deny that anymore.
ArTiyme ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 23:40:28 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
And there you go. Intentional ignorance. I will say go back and read the links but you won't. You're being stupid on purpose because you like you beliefs even if their untrue. That's just plain dishonest. Are you saying you're a dishonest person? And want to stay one?
Looks like every arrest was never met with a conviction. Results inconclusive.
ArTiyme ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 22:54:37 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
If you actually read, it's because he fled the state. Several states. Several times. He was convicted several times, for treason for instance, and escaped custody. So not only are you being morally reprehensible, you're just plain wrong. You know, if you actually read some things, you might learn.
None of their rant has anything to do with the picture.
ArTiyme ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 21:22:54 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Well the context is that Provo has a very high Mormon population and I'm assuming the guy who made the comment is familiar with that, and the sticker is referencing them.
ArTiyme ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 21:38:12 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Well I'm just explaining why he decided to chime in. It's not like it was a video of a bunny doing a backflip and he's like "As an Ex-mormon, there are problems with the church..."
Except it is like that. Their comment is irrelevant. They claim to be clarifying but all they're doing is going on an angry rant without even saying anything to address the subject of the picture. Now you're desperately trying to defend them for some reason.
ArTiyme ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 22:17:14 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I'm just explaining that he feels like there is a connection between the photo in Provo and his feelings on the Mormon church. That's all. And considering the amount of Mormons here in the comments, I'd say he was pretty spot on.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:19:50 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
There isn't a connection. Their rant has nothing to do with those photo. They in no way even address the subject of the photo. All they do is go on a rant based on the title. They claim that rant is clarifying things when in reality it is completely irrelevant.
ArTiyme ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:30:55 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Ok. Say it is irrelevant. So what? It's not like he's wrong and whatever the reason he felt the need to post it anyways. Oh well.
And none of that changes the fact that it's irrelevant. I pointed out it was irrelevant and you proceeded to downvote me and try desperately to defend their rant. It's bullshit to start your comment with "for anyone out of the loop" and then go on an irrelevant rant. I'm not going to sit and watch people spew bullshit.
ArTiyme ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:48:03 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Well see, that's what you think, and I disagree. And you wouldn't give a shit if he wasn't attacking your beliefs and was 100% correct. The only argument you can make is that it doesn't really connect to the above photo, but he thought it did, and since you're here, I think he was right. Also, I'm not downvoting you, that's other people who think that your argument is stupid.
Oh, so now because I call someone in their bullshit I must be a Mormon? Is that the argument you're going with? Can only Mormons call people on bullshit now? Why are you so desperate here? You are doing anything you can to defend this guy's bullshit rant, including making things up about me. You are embarrassing yourself.
They went on an irrelevant bullshit rant. I called them on it. You are now attempting to attack me to defend them. It's pathetic. I'm done here.
ArTiyme ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 23:21:43 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
The only "bullshit" you're calling out is that you think it's irrelevant. And yes, because of that argument it leads me to believe you're a mormon because other than that, there is no reason to get upset about whatever made the poster think that it was relevant. And if you think I'm embarrassing myself just for disagreeing with you and I have a valid reason for it, then you need to get off your pedestal before you fall and break something.
McCromer ยท -3 points ยท Posted at 19:40:58 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
Found the current mo that can't take criticism.
Edit: Carc made a good point replying to me and I am keeping this post up so users can see.
carc ยท 11 points ยท Posted at 19:46:04 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
I embrace criticism. I just think it's funny that this person is apparently so butthurt by religion as to vomit all over threads that are only just vaguely related to mormonism (read: Provo city). I wouldn't stand the same for spasmodic attacks on Islam or Judaism.
McCromer ยท 14 points ยท Posted at 20:11:21 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
That actually is a good point. I hadn't thought of it that way.
Found the TBM who still hasn't read the gospel topic essays on LDS.org and still doesn't know that the book of abraham is not a literal translation.
But go ahead and defend the institution that tells you that you can be with your family forever as long as you obey them and their racist and homophobic ways.
"suffer the little children and forbid them not, for of such is the kingdom of god". Hypocrite.
[deleted] ยท -16 points ยท Posted at 19:44:17 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I used to be one of these People. Served my mission in Indiana. Married my wife in SLC temple. I was serving as Ward Mission Leader when i read the CES letter.
carc ยท -4 points ยท Posted at 20:16:41 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
And because you gave up your faith, you want to drag down others with you? People who find joy and peace in the core teachings of the church?
I have no issue with people having religion. I have issue with that religion lying and deceiving its members into a more "faith promoting" version of history. Its dishonest.
It's manipulative and wrong. I appreciate that you are not sitting idly by and ignoring the greater issue, even if others are trying to shut you down and suggesting you should. I am glad there are still some people who are not afraid to do the right thing.
Seems like you're letting it all drag you down and infuriate you still. Grab a beer and watch some basketball. Stephen F. Austin is flirting with another upset. I guarantee it's way more fun than worrying about a religion that is apparently in your past.
Seems like you're letting it all drag you down and infuriate you still. Grab a beer and stop worrying so much about what other people are doing. I guarantee it's way more fun than spending your limited free time worrying about assuming that you know what everyone else is thinking and thinking you are the boss and telling them what they should be doing.
You may be assuming a bit too much about me here...
In my experience, leaving mormonism is about as hard as you make it on yourself. Be confident in who you are and be comfortable with yourself in that it just wasn't right for you. Live the life you want to live, be the kind of genuinely good person that will likely put many church members' artificial kindness to shame, and be honest with those around you about both the distance you'd like to have from the church, as well as the comfort that distance gives you. Sure, there will be push-back. There always is.
Making a big deal about leaving it behind and trying to drag down others with you isn't going to help anyone around you or yourself through the process.
Like I said, I think everyone who doesn't feel the church is good for them could be much better off by grabbing a beer, doing something they enjoy, and growing comfortable with not feeling bad about that all.
Dwelling on the dealings and history of a church that caused any of that grief will only allow the grief to further linger.
Source: Raised Mormon, even served 15 days of a mission, grandfather was in the 70, father was a bishop, mother has unhealthy obsession with all things the church.
ArTiyme ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:20:15 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Some people can let it go. I personally believe that religion has gone un-criticized for entirely too long and it's caused quite a few problems in all kinds of different faiths. I don't have a problem with people having beliefs until those beliefs are detrimental to others.
ArTiyme ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 20:36:42 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
And, on top of everything, you guys believe in a clearly man-made religion that promises it's followers thing it can't possibly deliver on. From my perspective, that's pretty shitty, so why wouldn't I want it to stop?
EDIT: I just realized I misread your comment. I thought you were asking why you should stop speaking up, and I was saying you shouldn't. I realize now you are saying why wouldn't you want those lies to stop.
I agree with you.
ArTiyme ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 00:53:10 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Haha, no worries. Simple misunderstanding. Happens to us all.
carc ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 19:52:05 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I'm fine with it, really. Have been for like 10 years. Why are you trying so hard to attack the belief system of others?
Because that belief system attacks homosexuals and those who leave the church. That belief system controls politics in the state of Utah and there are many of us here who won't tolerate bigotry and racism.
But really its about honesty. The church is not honest. You can believe in whatever you choose, but to have a church lie and distort its own record to promote a more faithful version and to demand so much in return isn't right.
As a mormon you should know how much the church requires, that choice should be made on the basis of honesty. Not the whitewashed version the church promotes.
[deleted] ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 20:12:02 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
I correct incorrect beliefs whatever and whenever.
Whether that's people believing in fortune telling, astrology, alchemy, homeopathy, anti-vaccination, climate change as a hoax, blah blah blah.
Your religion isn't any different. There is nothing about religion that makes it special or protects it from criticism that we would level at any other belief on the planet. Every political, scientific, whatever idea ever formulated is open to attack and ridicule except, apparently, your religion.
Bullshit. Religion is just an idea. And a poorly thought out one too, lacking any solid evidence whatsoever and most religions have some really horrific shit in their history if not still ongoing.
Derbl ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:23:03 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Because the deluded members don't keep the bullshit faith (that joe smith made up in plain view) to themselves.
From the mountain meadows massacre to the malheur occupation, mormonism has had real, tangible, negative consequences for those whose minds are not infested with it's bullshit and that's why many stand in opposition to it, the same as we stand in opposition to scientology, catholicism, and other cults.
It's an elective, collective mental illness that you're selling - nothing more.
You are right. But I think the "elective" portion is debatable. They don't make it feel all that elective in some cases.
LFK1236 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:46:01 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
That is interesting, but it doesn't really provide any context at all to the sticker or to Provo (which I can work out is a town in the U.S.). I learned something, but it didn't put me in the loop, as far as I can tell.
Nope, definitely just as dumb. You have let yourself become so consumed with anger that you are unable to express it in a healthy or reasonable way. Either grow up or get help.
No, really. You went on an irrelevant rant because you'd rather be angry than reasonable. You pretended to be adding to the discussion when you did nothing of the sort.
I started a discussion separate from the thread and thats it. Anytime to bring up a hate group and its accurate history is a good time. You are the one who can't get over it. Downvote and move on.
So yes, your rant was irrelevant to the post and you admit it, yet you pretended it wasn't. The fact that you think Mormons qualify as a hate group is ridiculous. Do you even know what a hate group is? You are showcasing far more hatred than they are. Honestly you should seek professional help to deal with the amount of anger inside of you.
I'm not full of anger like you are. I'm not letting anger control me life like you are. I'm not letting anger take precedence over reason like you are.
carc ยท 11 points ยท Posted at 20:12:36 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Until you actually live here, and realize it's actually pretty amazing. Skiing, snowboarding, hiking, rockclimbing, four-wheeling, shooting, etc. So many outdoor activities. And SUPER wide streets!
I came out here for school and stayed because of the aforementioned reasons, and the fact the tech industry is booming out here.
Too hot for me. I prefer Alaska. But I do love visiting Utah. People here on Reddit haven't been outside their parents basement so they probably think Utah has laws against sodomy or something and think the whole state is a backwards fundamentalist Mormon town. Glad to know that stereotyping is okay as long as the victims are presumably white...
As a Non Mormon, Mormons are the nicest and most harmless people I've ever met. It created a healthy environment in Provo and it really helped my depression. I don't know what the people in this thread are talking about. Nobody is preaching shit or pressuring people.
No actually, im just pointing out the problems with the blind unwarranted hatred of people in a religion you "enlightened" people seem to not take the time to understand...
I work in finance. I know Goldman has a massive MO operation there too, so not only can you be outside all the time, you can also make decent money (it's MO, but it's still Goldman).
If you are able to ignore some of the cultural issues and judgmental people, Utah (specifically the Wasatch Front) is a great place to live. A utopia for outdoorsmen, relatively modern infrastructure, 4 seasons with no real extreme, extremely safe, surrounded by sexy mountains, and growth is booming.
It is closer to summer highs around 90-100F and winter lows around 5-15F (without wind chill) here in the Salt Lake valley. Although even with your temps, I wouldn't say those are too extreme. Albeit, they are on the far end of both spectrums. Otherwise, we don't have anything serious going on besides the occasional blizzard and wind storm.
It can't be that simple. Men don't become pedophiles due to abstinence. I suppose it could be that men with that disorder are drawn to the church for abuse opportunities and/or for other reasons. Clergyman is apparently a career with a relatively high proportion of psychopaths (people unable to feel empathy), so perhaps some subgroup of them are pedos.
McBralee ยท 14 points ยท Posted at 16:21:25 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Potentially as well, paedophiles may look to the church as a way of defeating or surprising their disorder which may be due to earlier socialisation that creates the church as a bastion of morality for them. Obviously then the power that the church can grant individuals and as you said a large proportion may be psychopaths (source needed) could easily create a subculture of paedophillia
artgo ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:41:16 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
But isn't one of the problems how many decades these sex problems go unreported. A lot like domestic violence.
Maybe it just became a trend to report it at the church... so the reporting is skewed. What about orphan homes and foster homes that don't have ties to the church - maybe the reporting did not change?
So what you are saying it: families create an environment of pedophiles and psychopaths.
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 19:39:31 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Not sure where you're getting that statistic from but the entire reason the global Catholic Church is in a sex abuse crisis is because the scale and extent of the abuse of hidden so long and so well. Teachers don't have the same power of authority or internal support network of fellow pedophiles to assist in concealing their crimes so it would not be surprising to me if they had 'statistically' higher offending rates as they are much, much more likely to be caught.
I would be extremely skeptical of quoting "higher rates" against an organisation built on secrecy.
10% of children reported inappropriate behavior by teachers. There are 50 million students in the US right now, lets be realistic and knock that down to the average abuse rate which is 4%. that means right now in the US 2 million children have been abused by school teachers - not many arrests of school teachers have there been? That's because they are very well protected.
To normal people there is a line. On one side there is normal sexual behavior, and on the other side is the taboo (pedophilia, incest). In some churches the line encompasses every sexual act (until married). Masturbation is a deadly sin, so what's wrong with diddling a kid? It's all taboo to them. There is no line.
I understand that. So the question is why they'd be raping kids rather than jacking off if they're just regular guys who aren't pedophilic; I'm guessing pedophiles are drawn to the career.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:00:50 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It can't be that simple. Men don't become pedophiles due to abstinence.
Well, maybe it can be that simple. Years of sexual repression and confusion might wear down a person's healthy opposition to paedophilia. It's not that it makes priests attracted to kids, but kids become the unfortunate outlet due to being easy targets.
Now you're left with the question of how a priest could think that molesting and/or raping kids is better than jacking off if not a pathological pedo.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 07:02:54 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You're assuming paedophilia only occurs in explicitly insane people. Maybe it's an uncomfortable reality that some 'normal' people aren't too far from committing it and it can be developed with the right circumstances.
I don't know for sure why paedopriests do what they do, just saying I can see this is a possibility.
Most offenders are family members who have no restrictions on their reproduction, they just choose to abuse their own children - which makes your view fall flat.
ArTiyme ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 20:24:37 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Actually, it could be for the very same reasons that it happens in family settings. And family doesn't necessarily mean parents, there's a reason for that whole creepy uncle stereotype. Who do people generally allow unrestricted access to their children? Their church leaders and siblings.
And teachers, police officers, babysitters, doctors, dentists.
ArTiyme ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 20:42:20 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You don't really allow Police Officers unrestricted access to your children, do you? And if your kid is spending copious amounts of time with a doctor, there's usually a reason for that. Some of the others, we've seen how it goes wrong.
Police officers often visit schools and have the authority to pickup your kid from the street. anything can happen while your child is alone with a doctor too.
You sitting in the kids classroom, watching your child when they are outside, in the doctors office at all times or sitting there watching your kid get their teeth done? These are professions people don't even think twice about.
[deleted] ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 06:50:45 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
We're talking about priests not family members. They could be different systems.
ArTiyme ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 20:25:25 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I immediately took it as a reference to the Catholic Church.
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 19:57:03 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I think you are wrong. "Fondle" has a very specific cogitation.
[deleted] ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 20:33:50 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I suppose it could be that men with that disorder are drawn to the church for abuse opportunities and/or for other reasons.
That is probably indeed the case. E.g. about 2% of catholic priests are pedophiles. Compared to 0.1% or so in the general population (note: the numbers regarding this are generally very questionable and depend on definition, methodology and so on). That's quite a correlation.
Men don't become pedophiles due to abstinence.
Depends on what you mean by "become". Of course there is no direct effect that forces abstinent men to abuse children, but it indeed seems to increase the risk. A significant portion of child molesters aren't pedophiles (depending on what source you use maybe half are). So it's not unlikely that prudery does indeed increase the risk of children getting molested.
I guess it could increase the risk... but on what planet is jacking off worse than rape or molestation? Is that what I'm supposed to believe these priests & their protectors believe?
I am very curious as to where the 2% and 0.1% numbers come from. Give me a source that says Catholic priests abuse children more frequently than other groups because every single source I've read (Newsweek, BBC, Washington Post [point #3], The Guardian) says that abuse is either at the same levels as other men or lower (compared to other religious denominations as well as different public school systems [CBS]) within the Catholic Church. I haven't ever read an actual primary source comparing abuse inside/outside the Catholic Church that didn't show lowered levels of both sexual predators and cases of abuse. The Church definitely did and is still probably covering up and that's where I believe the true root of the problem is, but I feel like conflating a cover up with the idea that priests are more likely to be abusers is dishonest and doesn't help anyone.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 05:55:07 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
The 2% figure is what pope Francis said. It already linked that. IIrc it's based on a study that was published some time before he quoted it.
The overall figure is hard to find out. It's certainly below 5% (was an upper limit, probably much lower), the author of the 5% figure now estimates it at 1%:
Now, with more data and better methodology, he has revised his figure down to about 1% of the population, though he makes clear this is still only an educated guess.
"If we use a very strict definition and say paedophilia refers only to the attraction to pre-pubescent children [then it] is probably much lower than 1%," he says.
I have to admit that the 0.1% figure is an estimate that I once read in a German newspaper (IIrc it was an article about a study), so sorry, I can't find the source right now. At least not in English.
The point is that 2% is much higher than most estimates for the overall population.
bjt23 ยท -5 points ยท Posted at 16:58:24 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I don't know man, they can't masturbate either. It messes your brain up if you go like that for too long. I'm guessing if I went 20 years without jerking it I'd be all sorts of insane.
I don't buy it. You're telling me you would sexually abuse children if not allowed to ejaculate? That is utter madness. That is not normal. These aren't random guys; these are guys with particular traits being drawn to an ideology & associated position of authority over others.
bjt23 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 18:11:21 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I'm not saying I would tomorrow, or even ever. I'm just saying that after 20 years I'd be a little nuts, maybe different people go nuts in different ways.
So you are saying you are a dangerous sexual predator unable to control yourself if you don't get to do certain things? You should be locked up.
bjt23 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 19:24:09 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I'm saying everyone is. Most people get some sort of release every couple years at least so that's why we aren't overrun with serial killers, bestiality, incest, and child abuse.
I don't know about you but I have never decided that the best way for me to "release" is to abuse a child or harm people, someone should go ahead and take a good hard look at you if you think that is a reasonable response.
bjt23 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 20:18:30 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
No it isn't a reasonable response, I wasn't saying it was. What I was saying is that sexual repression causes child abuse.
That isn't true at all because if it was true then it wouldn't be a worldwide issue from parents to teacher to government officials. There is zero basis for reality in your assertion unless you think it is a reasonable response to not having sex.
bjt23 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 20:29:44 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Sexual repression isn't a requirement for parents, teachers, or government officials. Only priests.
Yes, different people: namely people with the brain disorder pedophilia. And why would they rape rather than jack off if, as you suggest, they're regular guys?
bjt23 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:19:08 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Because they're told jacking off is evil and makes you burn in hell?
They're also told that of adultery. Perhaps they're thinking kids don't have souls (indeed they don't) & thus it doesn't count as adultery.
bjt23 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:07:14 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Maybe when you put objectively terrible things on the same level as their own version of terrible things, you run the risk that all morality will look optional if it can't be held to? Like how when kids try pot and don't go insane like they were told would happen, they assume all the stuff they've been told about other drugs like heroin is also a lie.
I understand the second sentence but not quite the first.
bjt23 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 00:41:19 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Say your morality system puts all sexual activity on the level of rape, whether it's touching yourself or violently attacking someone else. They are all extremely evil under your morality system. One day you decide this is a system you can no longer abide by. However, since you see all sexual activity as morally equivalent, you do not have the aversion to rape that other people do. To you, it is no better or worse than masturbation.
Yes; some of those guys must be in that kind of frame of mind. I'm reminded of a Christian convicted murderer I saw on a prison documentary. He explicitly says it's just as bad to steal a cracker as it is to kill someone (& I think Biblical Jesus does use that kind of perverse all or nothing language at times while threatening eternal torture.)
bjt23 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 00:55:24 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I don't think the Catholic Church teaches that kind of absolutism anymore, but then again most priests aren't pedophiles and there are of course differing schools of theology within the church. Still, there's nothing in the Bible about priests not being able to marry, it just seems like they're needlessly creating problems for themselves.
The Jesus character in the Bible talks about sexual lust like it's among the most evil things around, so it's not super hard to see how they get such a warped perspective.
[deleted] ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 18:35:09 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
We're not naturally driven to reproduce in the interest of the species (sex drive is more primal & evolved without a concept of species), but that's a side discussion. And I'm left wondering why these guys would rape and/or molest rather than jacking off if they aren't pedos.
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 23:22:55 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It is from 1985, yes. As you can see by following the link provided, it is still used in this form. You can confirm this by checking the Gospel Library app as well.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:42:43 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
While his suggestion of what to do with religious people is detestable, his use of "hung" and "was not" are consistent with today's use. Especially was not. Weren't is literally a contraction of those two words.
You're right. I find myself correcting people on this a lot, because the consensus in psychology is relatively newly developed: pedophilia is an ingrained condition a small percentage of people are born with. That said, not all child molesters (pervs) are pedophiles, nor are all pedophiles child molesters. Child molesters are represented in all sorts of livelihoods (e.g. sandwich chain spokesperson). The problem with the priesthood is that it has been routinely covered up and enabled by charlatans to save the Church from embarrassment.
Jordoom ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:53:31 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
The problem with the priesthood is that it has been routinely covered up and enabled by charlatans to save the Church from embarrassment.
This is a half-truth. The problem is it both the Catholic Church, other churches, and even secular institutions unfortunately fell under the sway of the opinions of then-experts who asserted that offenders could be successfully rehabilitated and sent accused priests off for treatment, rather than reporting them to police, which resulted in a temporary spike in recidivism.
Now, my purpose here isn't to say, "Hey, they did it, too!" That doesn't help anyone and doesn't help victims. The Church should have been wiser, smarter, more sensitive than everyone else. There is a great deal of repentance and healing that needs to be done, and, yes, a solid degree of shame deserved on the part of Catholics and reparations deserved for the victims.
But this wasn't some thing that the Catholic Church "cooked up" or only the Catholic Church did. Everyone did it. Certainly, the Catholic Church was the largest institution, but it was not the only.
ArTiyme ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 20:27:59 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You say that, but you can't be sure. Plenty of people do fucked up things when they have opportunity and desire, and nothing reinforces desires like years of pretending you don't have any.
A "joke" that a lot of people believe to be true, including the OP based on his title. I enjoy dark offensive humor, just not when it's used to give you plausible deniability.
Before someone defends the mormons by saying they are not a cult. They had suicide pacts in the temple before 1990 where we swore to god to kill ourselves rather than reveal our secret handshakes we stole from free masonry to get into heaven. My secret name is Hyrum. By telling you that i won't be able to be with my family in heaven. We still promise our lives to the church in the temple but we don't mime slitting our throats anymore.
Not sure why you're being downvoted, that's all totally accurate.
Edited to add: in this interview, LDS Apostle Jeffry R. Holland first denies then confirms that the penalties were part of the temple ceremony. He says that they weren't enacted if someone revealed the signs and tokens, but rather of they revealed their promise with God.
However, prior to the changes in 1990 the penalties read thusly (emphasis added):
"We, and each of us, covenant and promise that we will not reveal any of the secrets of this, the first token of the Aaronic priesthood, with its accompanying name, sign or penalty. Should we do so; we agree that our throats be cut from ear to ear and or tongues torn out by their roots."
"We and each of us do covenant and promise that we will not reveal the secrets of this, the Second Token of the Aaronic Priesthood, with its accompanying name, sign, grip or penalty. Should we do so,ย we agree to have or breasts cut open and or hearts and vials torn from our bodies and given to the birds of the air and breasts of the field."
"We and each of us do covenant and promise that we will not reveal any of the secrets of this, the First Token of the Melchizedek Priesthood, with its accompanying name, sign or penalty. Should we do so,ย we agree that our bodies be cut asunder in the midst and all our bowls gush out."
Over time, the wording was changed to soften the graphic descriptions. Prior to 1990, they read thusly (emphasis added):
"I, โโ (think of the new name) do covenant and promise that I will never reveal the First Token of the Aaronic Priesthood, together with its accompanying name, sign and penalty. Rather than do soย I would suffer my life to be taken."
"I, โโ (think of the first given name), do covenant and promise that I will never reveal the second token of the Aaronic Priesthood, together with its accompanying name, sign and penalty. Rather than do soย I would suffer my life to be taken."
"I covenant in the name of the Son that I will never reveal the first token of the Melchizedek Priesthood or sign of the nail, with its accompanying name, sign or penalty. Rather than do soย I would suffer my life to be taken."
As you can see, the graphic descriptions were removed, but the end result is the same: don't reveal the signs, tokens, or their names or forfeit your life.
In 1990, after a conducting a survey regarding the temple ceremonies in 1989, the penalties and motions that accompanied then were completely removed so that it read as so:
"I ________, (think of the new name) covenant before God, angels, and these witnesses, that I will never reveal the First Token of the Aaronic Priesthood, with its accompanying name and sign."
"I _________, (think of the first given name) solemnly covenant before God, angels, and these witnesses, that I will never reveal the Second Token of the Aaronic Priesthood, with its accompanying name and sign."
"
I solemnly covenant before God, angels, and these witnesses, in the name of the Son that I will never reveal the First Token of the Melchizedek Priesthood or Sign of the Nail, with its accompanying name and sign."
Because its unpleasant to read for mormons and most people just don't care. So hiding the truth and not caring about a group that believes in mandated racism and that homosexuality is a sin close to murder becomes the norm, and the group continues to exist.
People might care if they knew how much the church distorts its own history to the members, effectively stealing the lives and money of an otherwise great people. The members are the victims, the church is the abuser.
obvious downvote by a clueless mormon who still believes. when i left i posed this same question to my hardcore believer father, basically asking him 'how can the endowment be straight revelation from god, and yet the church continues to amend and change it as they see fit?' wont the angels up there be like, woah you got the wrong version you cant come in. god is the same yesterday today and forever blah blah blah but he was wrong about that first draft.
You mean its troubling to find out that President Young taught in the temple that God is literally adam only for it to be declared as blasphemy in General conference years later? Yesterday's prophet is today's apostate.
Or how the priesthood didn't exist in the church until 1834 and was backdated to 1829 in Doctrine and Covenants but is missing from the original book of commandments? Or how the angles were at first unnamed and then later embellished?
Or how there is no record prior to 1832 by ANYONE inside or outside of the church in smiths town or family or even by himself regarding the first vision which is claimed to take place in 1820? Or how there are multiple accounts of the first vision but we only teach the 1838 version?
Yeah it falls apart rather quickly. I'm glad you got out.
Provo, Spain? Mr. Stanwyk's parents Marvin and Velma of Provo, were unable to attend the wedding. Those are three names I enjoy; Marvin, Velma, and Provo.
I hate to break it to you, but by commenting you're now fighting for upvotes like those other idiots. You don't have to be religious to be a damn hypocrite.
Well not really about finding out we were both in a cult, no. But in terms of our marriage its never been better! I love my wife and she loves me and surprise, we left the church. Bam
But yeah leaving the church sucks. Its hard to stand up for investigative and critical thinking, its harder when the church itself admits the book of abraham to be a non literal translation. Its hard to not wonder what the CES letter says when the prophets start getting controlling about researching on the internet. When the church starts to admit for itself the things i thought were once anti are true, its hard not to wonder. Read the essays on Lds.org.
Thats lds.org. Its not some anti mormon trick. Its the church. Go ask your bishop or stake president if you don't believe me. Read these essays carefully as bednar advised the CES. The church admits what i thought was anti but apparently is the truth. How much more is out there waiting to have essays written about?
When I left the church I wanted to tell all of my mormon friends and family about the stuff I had discovered. I wanted to tell the internet and preach against mormonism just like you're doing.
It just made me an angry and bitter person. I cut it out of my life completely and don't care about it and life is so much less stressful and more peaceful.
I'm still living in Utah and i have it affect me and those around me. So i'm against its dishonesty. Thats it. you can believe in all of it, i find it beautiful. Just be honest. (edit the honest bits aren't so beautiful...)
How do you feel knowing that black people were less valiant in heaven and that they have less potential than whites?
Sounds real christ like right?
carc ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 19:58:54 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Musings and speculation from misguided leaders from many years ago, especially when not speaking for the church, are not official doctrine. Everyone knows it but you. You say it as if it's preached at the pulpit. It is not.
'And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people, the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.'
Alma 3: 6
'And the skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a curse upon them because of their transgression and their rebellion against their brethren, who consisted of Nephi, Jacob and Joseph, and Sam, who were just and holy men.'
2 Nephi 30: 6
"...their scales of darkness shall begin to fall from their eyes; and many generations shall not pass away among them, save they shall be a white and a delightsome people."
NOTE: THE TERM 'WHITE' WAS CHANGED TO 'PURE' IN 1981.
3 Nephi 2:15
"And their curse was taken from them, and their skin became white like unto the Nephites."
Jacob 3: 5, 8-9
5 Behold, the Lamanites your brethren, whom ye hate because of their filthiness and the cursing which hath come upon their skins, are more righteous than you; for they have not forgotten the commandment of the Lord, which was given unto our fatherโthat they should have save it were one wife, and concubines they should have none, and there should not be whoredoms committed among them.
8 O my brethren, I fear that unless ye shall repent of your sins that their skins will be whiter than yours, when ye shall be brought with them before the throne of God.
9 Wherefore, a commandment I give unto you, which is the word of God, that ye revile no more against them because of the darkness of their skins; neither shall ye revile against them because of their filthiness; but ye shall remember your own filthiness, and remember that their filthiness came because of their fathers.
1 Nephi 12:23
23 And it came to pass that I beheld, after they had dwindled in unbelief they became a dark, and loathsome, and a filthy people, full of idleness and all manner of abominations.
1 Nephi 13:15
15 And I beheld the Spirit of the Lord, that it was upon the Gentiles, and they did prosper and obtain the land for their inheritance; and I beheld that they were white, and exceedingly fair and beautiful, like unto my people before they were slain.
Mormon 5:15
15 And also that the seed of this people may more fully believe his gospel, which shall go forth unto them from the Gentiles; for this people shall be scattered, and shall become a dark, a filthy, and a loathsome people, beyond the description of that which ever hath been amongst us, yea, even that which hath been among the Lamanites, and this because of their unbelief and idolatry.
Moses 7:8
8 For behold, the Lord shall curse the land with much heat, and the barrenness thereof shall go forth forever; and there was a blackness came upon all the children of Canaan, that they were despised among all people.
Moses 7:22
And Enoch also beheld the residue of the people which were the sons of Adam; and they were a mixture of all the seed of Adam save it was the seed of Cain, for the seed of Cain were black, and had not place among them.
Abraham 1:21-24,27
Now this king of Egypt was a descendant from the loins of Ham, and was a partaker of the blood of the Canaanites by birth.
From this descent sprang all the Egyptians, and thus the blood of the Canaanites was preserved in the land.
The land of Egypt being first discovered by a woman, who was the daughter of Ham, and the daughter of Egyptus, which in the Chaldean signifies Egypt, which signifies that which is forbidden;
When this woman discovered the land it was under water, who afterward settled her sons in it; and thus, from Ham, sprang that race which preserved the curse in the land.
Now, Pharaoh being of that lineage by which he could not have the right of Priesthood, notwithstanding the Pharaohs would fain claim it from Noah, through Ham, therefore my father was led away by their idolatry;
Your life will be so much easier and less stressful. I promise. I know I'm just some random shmuck on Reddit, but giving up on trying to inform others about mormonism made my life much less stressful and it made my mood lighten immensely over time.
The vast majority of people want to be openly in a sexual relationship with someone at some point in their lives, whether that means getting married or just having a partner or whatever. In doing so, they have disqualified themselves from becoming a priest because priests are required to abstain.
Therefore, these people are eliminated from the pool of potential priests, leaving only people who are fine with never openly being in a sexual relationship with another person. This increases the percentage of pedophiles in the pool of potential priests.
Eh if I'm not mistaken the percentage of pedophile priests roughly tracks with the general population, it's just that it's even worse because (1) they're in a position of authority, (2) there were instances of coverups. I get what you're saying, but I think it's one of those things that make sense in theory but doesn't actually play out in practice
Fair enough. I believe the theory stated probably accounts for some increased percentage, but there are obviously a lot of other factors so it certainly isn't cut and dry. They probably don't let obvious weirdos become priests regardless... It's definitely hard to get good data for statistics on this. You are definitely right that there are other factors which make it more scandalous.
It's so funny that The Catholic church in the past declared homosexuality as "unnatural", but the only thing that is unnatural is abstinence. I do not trust anyone who willingly gives up sex, least of all priests.
I have literally never heard of Provo before this post. Why is it so bad. Everyone keeps saying it's the people, but what about them?
[deleted] ยท 10 points ยท Posted at 20:09:24 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
ArTiyme ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 20:39:00 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Except for the people above who have lived there and say that crazy Mormons make the place terrible to live in. And for some reason, you, as a mormon, don't see that. Seems like we're putting the pieces together.
Skoull ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:09:26 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Really everyone acts like Provo is full of militant Mormons preaching on the streets. Yeah there's a higher Mormon population there but Jesus it's not like 99% of them care what you're doing or what you believe in.
It's always been a Reddit circle jerk to act like Mormons are a huge group of creepy degenerates from Utah... But other religious groups... Ahh whatever... Let's make fun of the minority! It's okay because they're white!
Wait... I live in Provo. Is Provo well known enough that people know which state it's in without SAYING which state it's in? This surprises me a lot, actually.
[deleted] ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 19:35:43 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Can confirm.
Source: Was raised Mormon, and I and many of my male friends are massive pervs.
I think you're having a laugh if you honestly think all these Catholic clergy are truly celibate 100% of the time. There are nuns and housekeepers to be banged.
Notice how Protestant clergy are allowed to marry and have their own families, hence they don't end up fondling anything with a pulse because their urges are healthily fulfilled.
Saved comment
MrCatEater ยท 320 points ยท Posted at 17:40:35 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I've always said Abstinence makes the arm grow stronger, glad to know I'm not the only one with this take.
iktomi3 ยท 21 points ยท Posted at 18:56:59 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Wait. You eat cats?
MrCatEater ยท 33 points ยท Posted at 19:04:39 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Only every day.
ryanpilot ยท 11 points ยท Posted at 23:25:49 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Hey! I like cats! Only I never can finish a whole one.
thinkfast1982 ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 23:41:51 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Kittens give Morbo gas
spagettyo ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 23:50:03 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Gordon Shumway?
alliewinkler ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 19:54:13 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It's actually armistice makes the arms grow stronger
mhatt ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 02:18:26 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Your take makes sense. OP's take, on the other hand, doesn't. People don't start acquiring a taste for children as a result of abstaining from normal sexual relations with consenting adults. This is worth pointing out because this catchy little slogan draws attention away from the real problems that led to abuse: e.g., too much trust in authority figures and institutions leading to lack of accountability (and to attracting perverted people to those positions), and systemic coverups designed to protect individuals and institutions (at least in the short term).
FapMaster64 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:27:46 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I hear that.
Dank-Sinatra ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 21:49:26 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
well, the forearms at least
[deleted] ยท -3 points ยท Posted at 18:25:53 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
Michamus ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 18:47:59 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Yes, that's generally how child rape ends up.
reggie991 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 19:14:03 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Oh fuck... I shouldn't have laughed at that, but I did.
gzzh ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 18:46:04 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Probably cause of the fondlers.
i_reddited_it ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 20:22:51 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I thought it was all the masturbation.
MrCatEater ยท 9 points ยท Posted at 21:17:41 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I mean that's implied.
[deleted] ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 22:23:17 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Y'know, all the difficulty people have fathoming life without constant sex can be summed up in one word:
JARED.
sonofop ยท 101 points ยท Posted at 17:21:41 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Funny picture, thread is cancer.
Sgt_Colon ยท 39 points ยท Posted at 17:48:49 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Ready the popcorn, I'm going in.
guineapig_69 ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 19:54:56 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Love this show
velligoose ยท 22 points ยท Posted at 22:45:26 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It really is. I've never seen so much bitterness as any time Utah or Mormons are brought up on reddit. I love living in Utah, I love living in Provo, and the Mormons here are generally pretty great people.
Itagu ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 00:30:14 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Honestly besides my husband's ex wife and her family, and as an atheist, Mormons tend to be cool and helpful people. Oh and missionaries when you say that you are atheist . They don't like that.
SwishSwishDeath ยท 38 points ยท Posted at 18:02:08 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Yeah, reddit Utahns sure love to bitch about the state.
Really, it's pretty k here. Not perfect, but nowhere is. And I say that as a bisexual smoker.
kerred ยท 21 points ยท Posted at 18:57:58 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I love living in SLC :(
barcodescanner ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 04:29:34 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Polygamy Porter FTW.
gizzardgulpe ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 05:25:18 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Delicious.
Prison_Vape ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 01:08:26 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Man, I've lived all over. I LOVE living here in Utah.
bloodmonk117 ยท 9 points ยท Posted at 18:08:24 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I'd imagine a lot of states are that way. Everyone bitches about it but most never leave. I'm totally in that category because I have all my family here and then I'd just be bitching about another state. But I'm happy here either way so it's all good.
ldclark92 ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 20:17:43 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Exactly.
I live in Indiana and back when Pence made the law about businesses being able to deny service to anybody they want it was a shit show on reddit. People came out of the woodwork claiming that Indiana is some unlivable shit hole, which it's not.
Sure, it's not the perfect state, but it is a great place to live and has a lot of great reasons to stay. And as you said, I've lived in multiple other states and you just find other things that you can complain about in any state.
sequestration ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 20:49:09 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You don't hear a lot about Indiana to be honest. It tends to mostly stay under the radar. Out of curiosity, what makes Indiana a great place to live?
ElKurto ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 21:34:42 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
The state government functions. Local citizens are pretty involved on local government. State economy is relatively solid and is diversified, so the boom-bust cycle of particular industries doesn't ruin the whole state economy. We have some of the best universities in the country: Notre Dame, Purdue, Ball State, Butler, and (obviously) Indiana University. Auto racing was basically invented here. Many other reasons.
stcwhirled ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 22:49:14 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
My gf is from Fort Wayne. I'm from California but have spent a lot of time all over Indiana from Bloomington to Gary to Martinsville to Elkhart (yeah everywhere). Let's just say it's all a matter of perspective.
She moved here not vice versa...
ldclark92 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:21:03 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
u/ElKurto covered it pretty well, but it's also nice to be within driving distance of so much. It's the center of the Midwest, so Chicago, Indianapolis (obviously), Cleveland, Cincinnati, Detroit, Louisville, Milwaukee, and Saint Louis are all within a reasonable driving distance away.
I've lived in multiple towns in Indiana and they have been very caring communities and welcoming. It was just a good place to grow up and my wife and I plan to raise our kids here as well.
Itskaseyface ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 00:51:42 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I sold everything and moved across the country to get out of Indiana. That being said I still am proud to say I'm a Hoosier.
[deleted] ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 19:36:39 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I think Mormonism is as dumb as everyone else who left, but I"m still in Utah because it's much better than every other state I've been to.
Besides Colorado.
y-a-me-a ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 20:56:19 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
There is a bumper sticker of a Colorado flag with the text "Free Moab".
stcwhirled ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 23:00:02 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
So two states?
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 01:59:41 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Not including Colorado. Besides it. Meaning it and Utah beat all the others.
California has amazing beaches and forests, but 65% of the country is not only desert, but the ugliest desert outside of shitty Nevada.
Thewilltosucceed ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 04:33:35 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I dunno, I like the Mojave. I think it's pretty.
sequestration ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 20:49:44 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Is it easy enough to get around the Mormomism? It is a geographically beautiful state and has good weather. How is the food?
Thewilltosucceed ยท 11 points ยท Posted at 21:16:52 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
You can find decent food. Most of Utah valley is Mormon. SLC and park city are much less so.
Mormons aren't bad people. I've left the church, but my two closest friends out here are Mormon and are really good people. Some of their ideology is harmful to others, and the theology is inconsistent and doesn't hold up to the archeological, historical and scientific evidence we have, but it's like everything else.
There are good people and bad people of varying degrees in it.
Edit: added historical
L_Ron_Hubby ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:00:47 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I'd disagree with the other answer you got. Food is probably where Utah suffers the most. It's not a very diverse place and I feel like most 'ethnic' restaurants cater to the taste buds of the mormon population (think funeral potatoes and casseroles). But the outdoors are incredible and there are good people.
SwishSwishDeath ยท 9 points ยท Posted at 22:20:24 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Go eat a Betos burrito then tell me our food is lacking, peasant.
L_Ron_Hubby ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 22:36:20 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Haha I do love Betos. I lived in Utah my whole life, it's my food too.
SwishSwishDeath ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 22:41:53 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Okay so we have a good base, what about El Matador?
L_Ron_Hubby ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 22:51:40 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Nope. It just doesn't compare swishswish. There are 5 korean bbqs, a ramen bar, a jewish deli, and half a dozen taco trucks within a couple minutes of me. I'm spoiled now. Betos, Cupbop, Red Iguana, Blue Plate Diner, Greek N Go, Bruges, and Davanza's still have my heart though. edit: I'm in California
oussan ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 08:00:14 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Mmmm... Cupbop. Truly, Utah does not have enough Korean food, but I love me some Cupbop!
L_Ron_Hubby ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 19:14:46 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Poop gold, friend!
stcwhirled ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 22:52:55 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Yeah I mean it's all a matter from perspective but Utah is definitely at the bottom of the culinary food chain here in the states.
Thewilltosucceed ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 04:30:06 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I dunno. I've been to Thailand and other places and there are a couple good eating establishments that are pretty authentic in Utah county, though you've got to do done driving to get to each one.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 02:02:08 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
TBH, if you tell them straight up "I'm not interested in Mormonism," then you might not be able to tell the difference between Mormons and regular people minus they don't drink and their sex jokes are masked to look like it's all in jest.
Unlike Catholic girls, many Mormons really are innocent virgin types though, so getting laid is harder.
Thewilltosucceed ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 04:27:10 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
That's not been my experience. List my virility to a rather persistent LDS girl, and some of my out of state friends have success with the Poophole Loophole and the Provo Float when they're out here.
Of course, YMMV.
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 05:52:01 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
Yeah, I don't buy it. That's 100% myth. No Mormon has ever used that. As far as their church is concerned, even being naked in the presence of someone else is just as bad as sex, and they don't have levels of bad for sex, with vaginal being the worst. I've lived here my entire life and the only place I've ever even heard of that was from out of staters saying it's totally a thing here.
This one especially. "It's not sex if we don't move, so we don't have to see the bishop." Mormons believe that you have to see your bishop if you have particularly sexually thoughts about specific people. I don't think the Mormon float flies.
If your friends are telling the truth (hint: they're not, which is sad in itself) then it's more than likely a non-mormon girl who also believes that shit and thinks they're getting off doing it with a Mormon.
Thewilltosucceed ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 14:30:22 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
I know a couple LDS guys who've used both of those. My girlfriend and a couple of other female Mormon friends went and confessed to the bishop that they'd had premarital sex. The two that did oral, etc had to wait a year before they could go to the temple again and had to tell the bishop everything they had done sex wise.
The one who just had penetrative sex only had to go a few months, as did another female friend of mine and my old roommate because they got into some heavy petting and grinding. There is definitely a scale, though where the stuff a person does falls on that scale changes from Bishop to Bishop.
Yeah their teachings regarding that stuff are strict, and obviously it's a rationalization that doesn't technically work, but people use it. Just like you can go to a bar and find mormons from a couple towns over there drinking so they don't get caught.
People are people, and Mormon, Catholic, or Buddhist there are going to be those who break the rules of their religion and they aren't necessarily going to tell their Bishops about it.
Edit: context
zeronexx ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 21:42:08 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
There's no getting around the Mormonism. I had TWO separate groups of people solicit at my door just yesterday, pushed pamphlets through my door and knock endlessly. Food is the worst of any state I've been to. Only good things: stuff is pretty cheap, but so are the people; everyone feels entitled to EVERYTHING and they'll get mad and blame you when you deny them what they think they deserve. I would say if 100 IQ is average, Utah average is no more than 80. Only come here for the view, but always have an escape plan; this place is NOT for living unless you're brainwashed by Mormonism and fine living with the absolute WORST drivers ever.
a-dark-passenger ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 21:52:05 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Omg you sound like such an optimistic person!
Truth be told it's a fine state to live in. Great food can be found throughout Salt lake valley, especially downtown and Sugarhouse. Lots of fun bars downtown. Tons of things to do outdoors. Low crowds when shopping on Sunday's. And Mormons are super nice people even if a little judgmental.
All and all I love living here and I am not Mormon.
zeronexx ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 23:08:43 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Guess I'm not allowed an opinion. So glad you are though! No wonder you live in Utah.
SwishSwishDeath ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 00:32:41 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
He insinuated you were a negative person, then provided positive life experiences that countered your comment. How is that him stopping you from having an opinion?
Then you go on to insult the state again, proving his remark on your negativity. Are you sure it's the people around you with a low IQ? You've heard the saying "if everyone you meet is an asshole, you're the asshole", no?
[deleted] ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 00:55:19 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
SwishSwishDeath ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 01:22:31 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I've already decided. You're an extremely negative person, and it comes off in the way that insinuate that the people disagreeing with you are "dumb" or "brainwashed". Utah isn't perfect, but it's a damn good state and there are damn good people living here.
[deleted] ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 02:40:25 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 02:47:14 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
[deleted]
[deleted] ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 03:17:31 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
OneDaftCunt ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 03:39:36 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
yeahokay.gif
a-dark-passenger ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 01:27:15 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You can have your opinion. I just think it's a very pessimistic outlook. I wasn't trying to stop you, just counter you with my opinion.
Chill out friend :)
zeronexx ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 02:25:30 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Having an opinion that negative doesn't automatically make a person negative or a pessimist, it can be drawn from observation and facts which I have done to conclude my own opinion of this place. I'm moving in six day and am VERY excited to be going to a better state. Peace friend.
a-dark-passenger ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 02:30:34 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I hope you find a place you that lets you see the world in a positive light, I mean that sincerely. Hope it treats you well!
squrr1 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 23:59:23 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Do they scream when you smoke them?
SwishSwishDeath ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 00:42:42 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Damn, shoulda had the foresight to see that coming.
Itagu ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 00:35:38 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I love Utah! The only thing I don't like is that the Mormon church runs the state but yet they ignore/deny the fact that they do.
All I wanna do is buy wine and not have to go to a specific store before 7pm to do it. Is that so wrong?
SwishSwishDeath ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 01:18:08 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Yeah that's the only thing I hate about this state. But it seems to be getting more coverage so hopefully change is on the horizon.
Coral_Bones ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 22:18:29 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
That's social suicide...
SwishSwishDeath ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 22:24:45 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Nor really. I get disgusted looks for smoking, but no more than I got in California or Australia, and if I ever find a dude I like banging enough to ring, gay marriage is legal and most Mormons that disagree with it do so in silence. I even had a couple out managers at my last job, and the only reason one got any hate was because she was a bitchy meth head. But that's Walmart for you.
Coral_Bones ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:36:34 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
"Silence" as in talk about it behind your back thou :(
SwishSwishDeath ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 22:40:29 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
People are always going to do that though, no matter who you are or what you do. Best you can do is surround yourself with good people :)
sleauxbreaux42 ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 03:12:02 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I live right off of campus in Provo and BYU students are some of the most entitled people I've ever known. I feel oppressed just driving through campus.
SwishSwishDeath ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 03:14:20 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Isn't that just college campuses in general?
sleauxbreaux42 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 03:32:45 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
That's... probably true. I've just had the religion aspect shoved down my throat for so long that I kinda jumped to that. Fair point, fair point.
[deleted] ยท 77 points ยท Posted at 20:37:38 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
apollopotamus ยท 21 points ยท Posted at 21:42:00 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
THANK YOU. I'm a former catholic as well and I've always side eyed people who blame the vow of chastity for the pedophilia in the church. I think the church attracted pedophiles to begin with bc of the way they would turn a blind eye. Somebody who isn't a pedophile isn't going to suddenly become one if they are abstinent (if anything I'd think they would just seek out a prostitute).
[deleted] ยท 13 points ยท Posted at 23:44:35 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
[deleted]
[deleted] ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 00:53:54 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Well done, Father-to-be. In seminary now?
Jordoom ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 01:01:31 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Thanks! God willing.
Nah, still discerning, but pretty strongly leaning towards it. I've only been Catholic since Easter 2014, so it might be a little longer yet, since that's like the bare minimum of time that most seminaries will accept you.
I'm currently a little torn between the Jesuits and being a diocesan priest, but I'm leaning more towards Jesuits and am in early talks with the vocations director for the Jesuits here in Canada. I've got an interview coming up soonish.
rosts ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 02:25:34 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Well, shouldn't we expect the priesthood to have much higher standards?
Shouldn't God effectively weed out the shitstains from serving him?
If you're no more moral than anyone else, why should we bother with you?
Jordoom ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 12:47:47 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Absolutely we should, and that's kind of what I was trying to say when I said, "one instance is one too many", etc. In the Bible, Jesus says that if anyone would prevent children from coming to Him or causes them to stumble (and certainly, a priest betraying trust in this terrible way would fit that bill), He says, "it would be better for you if a great millstone were fastened around your neck and you were drowned in the depth of the sea." This isn't necessarily a literal proscription for the death penalty for pedophilia, but it does display the anger, heartbreak, and seriousness that Our Lord would feel towards these people.
However, today, the Catholic Church is perhaps the gold standard when it comes to child protection and abuse prevention. The Church has trained millions and millions of priests and adult volunteers to recognize signs of abuse and to prevent abuse. Millions of Catholic children have also undergone age-appropriate training in this area, thanks to the Church. There are now independent annual audits, and the Church has worked with child welfare experts, child psychologists, and abuse experts to continue to address prevention.
Enough cannot be said about the courage of those men and women who suffered abuse from their priests. It is by their coming forward that this has come to light, which has lead to all of these prevention methods being put in place. They've literally saved lives with their bravery, and I do not know if we, as a Church and as a society even if you're not a member of the Church, could ever thank them enough.
No. This is an example where human free will comes in. The Catholic Church is generally much more "picky" about who it ordains (which does sort of exacerbate our "priest shortage" here in the west, but most bishops and vocations directors seem to think that is a valid price to pay to ensure the sort of spike that happened in the 60s-80s never happens again.)
The Church is Holy by virtue of being wedded to Christ. It is He who makes her holy, not the fallible men and women who make her up. Additionally, it is a Christian tenet that all men have and will fall short of the glory of God. The existence of sin, even terrible sin, in the world and in the Church, is an evidence for our need of a Saviour, not against. I'm not trying to convert you, merely answering your question with what I genuinely believe, but you should "bother with" the Church because she was hard-won by Jesus Christ on Calvary.
Thewilltosucceed ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 21:50:00 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
FTFY
rosts ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 02:19:40 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I think it's two things. Pedophiles become priests to get easy access to children, but I also believe a few priests will molest boys from nothing but sexual frustration.
Look at some Muslim countries. Women aren't allowed to show any skin at all, and men aren't even allowed to interact with them. So what happens? Bacha bazi. A bizarre child prostitution where the boys dress like women to arouse the frustrated men.
Here's a recent short documentary: https://youtu.be/j2C3JBdv520
Ben_ji ยท 122 points ยท Posted at 15:47:32 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
God, I hate Provo.
Kylesawesomereddit ยท 102 points ยท Posted at 17:30:29 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
How could the city be bad with a flag
[1] like this?[1]
[deleted] ยท 62 points ยท Posted at 17:38:14 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
thought u were joking, but looks that really was their flag
here is the current one
and here are all the submissions when they decided to change it
JeremyR22 ยท 75 points ยท Posted at 17:44:37 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I wish they'd picked this one:
http://provomayor.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Screenshot-2014-05-21-11.41.09.png
[deleted] ยท 68 points ยท Posted at 18:10:42 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
This one is a thing of beauty.
http://provomayor.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Screen-Shot-2014-07-01-at-1.55.00-PM.png
[deleted] ยท 16 points ยท Posted at 18:35:30 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Reminds me of this.
jettrscga ยท 12 points ยท Posted at 19:57:56 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I mean, you can't really argue with that flag unless you're a god damned communist. It's got all the right words and a fuckin stallion and everything.
[deleted] ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 20:15:59 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Even comrades love a majestic stallion.
Whiskey_Jack ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 02:13:36 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I mean, they are native to the Eurasian steppes. Probably more Russian than American.
jumbojet62 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 01:28:47 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
That flag has the best words.
GoGoGadgetPants ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 20:11:24 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Something napoleon dynamite created
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:44:09 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
These comments are making me laugh so hard.
I cannot let myself believe this is real.
There's no way.
[deleted] ยท 15 points ยท Posted at 20:18:55 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
http://imgur.com/p4xDLaW
This submission was pretty good but it looked too much like the old flag.
Kylesawesomereddit ยท 15 points ยท Posted at 17:41:08 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Current one is much nicer, but it doesn't have the wow factor of the old one, you know?
JeremyR22 ยท 27 points ยท Posted at 17:43:24 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It has Wow Factor in the same way a steaming pile of shit on the floor in Walmart does:
"Wow, who the fuck did that?!"
laikamonkey ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 19:06:41 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Ahaha, it's so bad, it looks like a dairy company logo.
[deleted] ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 19:38:22 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
The new one? Nah, it's pretty cool. That's a particular Mountain that the city sits under. It's really quite a sight. I don't live there but it's a nice drive through.
laikamonkey ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 19:49:10 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You got me wrong, what I mean is that the vexillology behind that flag seems ridiculous and over elaborate. Usually, in flags, mountains are represented with triangles, that's not a flag design, that's a Logo design fit for an enterprise located in Provo.
A good flag should mostly be simple, easy to identify at a distance and overall elegant in simple shapes.
This is a bit ridiculous, but if it was voted by the people, well, my opinion is meaningless, I don't even live there.
[deleted] ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 19:51:24 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
โIf I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.โ
:D
laikamonkey ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:04:48 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Ahaha, exactly, it also kinda reminds me of that frontpage post the other day about the 'Boaty McBoatface' name for a serious research boat.
You give the people too much power of choice, sometimes that's what happens!
[deleted] ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 20:18:36 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Which is retarded. Ships need badass names.
jumbojet62 ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 01:30:06 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Like Boaty McBoatface
Gorfoo ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:21:45 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
But the old one looked like a laundry detergent logo!
JoeShmoe49 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 21:04:07 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Was one of the submission requirements that your flag had to be created in ms paint?
GoldenAthleticRaider ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:50:29 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
That'd be a fantastic logo for like a coffee company or something.
Brianfiggy ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:12:13 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Some clearly trying to bring back the confederate style
NewbornMuse ยท 9 points ยท Posted at 18:29:43 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Fuck me, that looks like some vitamin supplement.
JeremyR22 ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 17:38:28 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It may as well say:
Provo: Vexillologists hate us!
Kylesawesomereddit ยท 11 points ยท Posted at 17:40:19 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Although it has inspired some hilarious redesigns on /r/vexillology
Roflkopt3r ยท 11 points ยท Posted at 18:34:20 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
There are tons of them on /r/vexillologycirclejerk.
Kylesawesomereddit ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 18:39:44 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Haha I love these so much
gainsaw ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:01:33 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It reminds of the Shout triple action stain remover logo
neogod ยท 9 points ยท Posted at 22:15:22 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
They've got google fiber. That automatically puts them in the top 5 best cities in America. I've seriously tried to convince my wife to move there, but we already live in Utah. It's a step up if you're coming from anywhere else in the state (besides St George, maybe).
twitresho ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 23:28:43 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I love St. George but the Internet is not so good
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 00:01:30 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
neogod ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 03:01:12 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Fuck, that's spectacular. I pay $70 for 15 but really 5 download.
and_one_more_thing ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 22:20:10 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Man, I'd rather live somewhere I love than have extra bandwidth.
neogod ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 22:55:56 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You must not have 90s era download speeds then.
and_one_more_thing ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 22:58:01 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Feels like it sometimes. My cell phone has better bandwidth than my Comcast service, even with only 1 or 2 bars.
neogod ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:10:07 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
My cell phone is more than 10x faster than the best internet service I can get for my house. They both cost the same too.
[deleted] ยท 16 points ยท Posted at 17:48:02 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I was born and raised in Orem as a nonMormon and boy that was rough. :-(
Ben_ji ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 20:49:08 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I've heard horror stories from friends with nonlds kids. It's straight up seggragation, 50s style, huh?
8oz_of_sweet_heroin ยท 11 points ยท Posted at 21:39:10 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I grew up in Utah and never had any issues with Mormon friends. No one judged us. No one said they weren't allowed to hang out with us because we weren't Mormon. The bad part was Sunday's when none of or friends could go out and play, but for the most part it's not as bad as most people believe.
stcwhirled ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 22:43:59 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Nice try LDS PR.
I_EAT_GUSHERS ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 23:14:03 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Were you in Salt Lake county?
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:33:00 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
Thewilltosucceed ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 04:35:45 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
So yes? No?
8oz_of_sweet_heroin ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 04:41:29 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Sorry I thought you asked where for some reason. Yes it's salt lake county
Jubguy3 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 21:39:19 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I had a friend who went to Davis high school who was not mormon and she got bullied endlessly. I am lucky enough to live in salt lake city, I know like maybe 10% mormon kids.
Specken_zee_Doitch ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 20:12:41 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Orem! ... Yeah fuck Orem.
[deleted] ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 21:19:41 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
๐๏ธ greeperfi ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 22:08:49 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
If you have a family Orem is a great place to live; it's very family oriented though a lot of the socializing is church related. Utah and the Salt Lake Valley is awesome especially if you like outdoors. People are friendly though the Utah Valley (Provo, Orem etc) is a little cliquish. NonMormons sometimes find it difficult getting ahead in a company where their management is Mormon because there is a strong church bias. I find the people here to be warm and friendly. Salt Lake is much more diverse so if Orem is too homogenous for you, it's not too bad of a commute.
Specken_zee_Doitch ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 21:34:50 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It's just a very homogenous area, lots of Mormons, very little diversity. The Mormons seem to live in this bubble and if you don't fit their mold it can be a pretty lonely place.
If you're Mormon and you enjoy the company of mormons you'll be fine. Otherwise it's a pretty difficult place to grow up but the real estate is cheap and the skiing is good.
Cciamlazy ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 22:09:10 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It's lonely unless you find other people that aren't mormon which honestly isn't that hard. Source: lives in Provo and works in orem
neogod ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 22:23:30 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
It's not nearly as bad as the rest of the state. You'll get your typical Mormon sensibilities and weirdness, but nobody will judge you as long as you don't make it obvious that your not lds. I live in a small community (300 or so people) 140 miles from Orem and the church has their hand in everything, my son can't play with most kids his age because their lds parents won't let him and my work schedule is created so that I get no holidays or Sunday's off because I don't go to the church. They have been, very politely, trying to blackmail my family into becoming lds.
Orem is the absolute shit compared to most of Utah, and you've got more than one In and Out Burger and are near Google Fiber, so your internet should be pretty great.
Edit
My advice is this, don't curse in public, be kind to and at least talk to the missionaries when they come to your door (me and my wife feed them because the church makes them pay for their own food and they are usually young and without money), and just try to be a good person. You'll probably never get harassed.
jaeke ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 04:27:35 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Small town of 300 what town? I'm from Goshen so about 30 miles south of Provo.
molodyets ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 05:34:49 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Sorry the people in your town suck at being Mormon.
molodyets ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 05:33:24 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Remembering to PM me and I'll help you move in and buy you lunch. There's great people everywhere, there's just a lot of crappy people around them too.
fireashes ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 07:22:49 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I also came here for job. Seems nice people around. When people find out you dont want to join church on sundays, things go south.
Coral_Bones ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:23:58 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
So many missionaries. And all your neighbors inviting you to church. And being talked about behind your back. Also, bad drivers, but besides that it's pretty nice.
Source: Have lived here for 10+ years, and a ex-mormon
GeneralKang ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 21:27:55 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Oh, you poor sonofabit...
Question 1: Are you LDS?
[deleted] ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 21:41:52 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
GeneralKang ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 22:02:27 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Then you're about to be a stranger in a strange land. That opinion will be unpopular, and will work against you.
Utah (and Provo or Orem in particular) are VERY different culturally then Seattle. People there talk a lot more and are far more socially conservative then up here. It's a different vibe, a different set of ideals, and if you go into it wrong, it can be painful.
[deleted] ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 22:12:55 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
GeneralKang ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 22:27:19 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Woof. Okay...
Those last four will help. The rest are going to be interesting. Kinky is fine, just keep it quiet. Those other three will get you ostracized if mentioned in the wrong group or context.
Send me a PM, if you like, and I'll give you a better idea of what this culture is really like.
stcwhirled ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:42:20 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I think you're going to have more of an issue not being LDS.
Omnibus-Prime ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 22:02:09 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Lol, It's really not as bad as people make it seem. Orem compared to Provo is "ghetto", but every place has an area like that. Act like you belong and you will. Only time I'd really worry about this segregation everyone is talking about would be at your workplace. Even then it's still rather rare. Their church does still play a roll in local politics, unfortunately. Even then, it's nothing life altering lol. Let's see... if you're planning on attending school, don't even bother glancing at BYU if you're not LDS. Besides, UVU is better cough. If the religion is one of concerns... it shouldn't be, lol. You will occasionally meet the extreme on the spectrum ofc though :P
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 22:15:27 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
Omnibus-Prime ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:41:46 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Well, maybe ghetto wasn't the right word lol. The pockets of older residential areas just look... unkempt I guess. I've never feared for my life, or felt unsafe.
But no, that's one of the nicer areas
molodyets ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 05:36:35 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Though he says don't even glance at BYU it's the reason Provo is what it is and Orem is a mostly older town that doesn't have nearly the amount of development.
M00glemuffins ยท -3 points ยท Posted at 20:26:46 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Indeed. So glad my wife and moved away from that wacko town and out of that wacko cult. The only sane place in Utah is Park City.
biggy_d1 ยท 9 points ยท Posted at 21:18:42 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Salt lake too, just hipsterry
zeronexx ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 21:43:44 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Moving away with my husband in t minus 6 days; could not be more happy!!
tnastylax ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 21:51:36 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I visited provo a few months ago, the thing that weirded me out the most was that every single couple had like 5 or more kids and where like 20 years old. I feel like the gave up on recruitment so they're just breeding followers.
JonnyArcho ยท -8 points ยท Posted at 16:57:30 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Yes, and I'm not too fond of rest of the northern half of Utah either.
Mavuska ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 17:06:05 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Hill AFB ftw.
shitty_punctuation ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 18:57:25 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Sr-71 blackbird muthafuckas!!!!
SwishSwishDeath ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 18:38:51 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
The Hooper/Clinton/Roy area isn't bad. I'm just hoping that's Kent's is still having a sale on their Best Damn Apple Ale, because I'm a cheap alcoholic.
Update: Best Damn Apple Ale $10 for a 12 pack.
Ben_ji ยท 11 points ยท Posted at 17:01:40 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Park City or bust.
whasa_whasa ยท -3 points ยท Posted at 19:44:45 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I vowed never to visit Provo again. It's been over 7 years now since.
[deleted] ยท 13 points ยท Posted at 20:04:53 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
whasa_whasa ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:05:32 on March 23, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Wouldn't step foot into your border of weirdness.
jek39 ยท -2 points ยท Posted at 17:04:31 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Yea, I prefer swiss too
Heretic_flags ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 00:39:00 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
live here now, shoot me in the face
alomjahajmola ยท 9 points ยท Posted at 17:06:18 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
anyone else see the reflection that looks like a penis just below?
Sphexi ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 18:24:38 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
YES, noticed that as well.
iktomi3 ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 19:00:27 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
K. Y'all see dicks where you're not supposed to see dicks too often... what's up with that?
Sphexi ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:11:14 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
What are you suggesting?
TazakiTsukuru ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:22:53 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Oh shit, didn't see that one!
I thought you meant the reflection of the clouds and street light above the sticker
PimpMyGloin ยท 27 points ยท Posted at 19:06:33 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
WARNING WARNING
REDDIT HAS BEEN TRIGGERED
Jubguy3 ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 21:39:42 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Mormor maymay
smokedemon ยท 39 points ยท Posted at 16:40:54 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I live in Provo... I love how pretty it is, but sweet Jesus I hate the people.
JakJakAttacks ยท 52 points ยท Posted at 18:03:43 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I honestly don't get this. I've been in Provo multiple times. They're nice people. They don't go walking around preaching and judging like everyone likes to make it seem. It's a nice place.
ScaledDown ยท 54 points ยท Posted at 18:11:15 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I would imagine visiting and living there are 2 totally different beasts
blamb211 ยท 12 points ยท Posted at 18:54:42 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It really is. I've been visiting Provo my whole life, then lived there for a couple years. Would not live there again.
zeronexx ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 21:47:22 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Exactly this. I loved it the first month, then downhill FAST after that...
M00glemuffins ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:28:33 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
That's precisely the difference. I lived there for 6 years while my wife and I were going through college and were still in the church. Even when we were Mormons we thought Provo was awful. Then we realized it was all a cult and the atmosphere of that town just got worse. Provo residents in general suck.
Worf65 ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 23:45:24 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
As a lifelong Utahn I might be able to explain. They're very nice people on a professional or causal just passing through level. If you live there you quickly discover that they are highly judgmental and uptight. If it was just a small fraction of the population you could just let it go and not care but when its nearly everyone you meet it gets very difficult. I've had attempts at going to see movies with coworkers ruined because the movie was PG-13, its very difficult to have an event where there might be alcohol without scaring everyone off. They won't let their kids play with nonmember children and they don't date non members (again they are "nice" so they won't tell you that's why but the innocent little 6 year olds who haven't learned to lie yet will admit that its because you don't go th the same church). It can be a very isolating experience living here as a non Mormon.
jumbojet62 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 01:55:53 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Yup I'm exmormon and I'm still friends with a lot of mormons who don't know I don't believe. it's hard because I can't really be open about it without potentially harming my relationships with them. Mormons, especially Utah mormons, tend to socialize only with people in their church.
Worf65 ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 02:35:23 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
This is why I've basically never had a social life. Their lives revolve around church and various church activities.
Notorious_Dave ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 05:39:01 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I literally have no clue what you're talking about, besides the alcohol. I live in probably one of the most Mormon cities in Utah. (Like 95% Mormon). All my buds go to R rated movies all the time. people date outside the church all the time (though it's just for fun and nothing comes of it).
Ever been a designated driver? Drinking isn't fun if you're the only one not drunk.
Worf65 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 14:14:03 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It sounds like you've managed to find a healthy amount of Jack Mormons where you're at. The one most worried about movies at a previous job was a 29 year old man but all the Mormons in the group had similar concerns for several pg-13 movie suggestions and I was the only non mormon from side of town at work, 30 miles from any of the others so an after work event nearby was my best bet but it was always derailed. The vast majority that I've met are very strict on those things, especially the dating. They only date to marry so they only will date a non mormon if they think they can convert them (or I've met a few who will go on first dates so someone will take them out and pay for everything, then break it off citing the church, no they didn't do this to me but the pattern was pretty obvious). I also wasn't talking about places where they could be the only one drinking, I was talking about events where it might be common for it to be an option but not drinking focused, like having beers at a BBQ.
Qwik_Sand ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 21:08:49 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Thank you!! I've lived and grown up here for 17 years and they are not bad people at all.
Notorious_Dave ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 05:41:34 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It's just the mindset of people. If you come in hating everyone you're going to hate everyone.
Boosted801 ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 19:49:32 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
you'd have to live in the area to understand, i left and moved north to Ogden where the people are more friendly to non-Mormons.
Sparrowhawk_92 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 20:44:16 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Welcome to my home town. As a non-mormon native I've met a lot of pretty great people here.
Capt_Gingerbeard ยท -3 points ยท Posted at 18:31:02 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Maybe it's all the concentration camps for teens.
http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2015/4/21/abuse-utah-residential-youth-treatment-facilities.html
[deleted] ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 19:58:25 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Could be their reputation for psychologically abusing children, but maybe that's just me.
Qwik_Sand ยท 26 points ยท Posted at 21:06:57 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I'm an non Mormon living in Provo. Yes the place is beautiful but are Mormons really that bad
Doesn't matter how crazy their religion is the people are the nicest and most kind to people I've ever met. No one has ever talked me nor pressure me into the church ever. The amount of kindness put me into a great environment and is actually one of the reasons why I am out of depression. I have no clue what you guys are talking about, the people here are harmless.
stcwhirled ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 22:55:17 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
And that's how the conversion begins. Good luck!
jumbojet62 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 01:57:50 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You've obviously never lived in the Midwest.
zeronexx ยท -8 points ยท Posted at 21:50:00 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You must just be in this wormhole of a place in Utah I've never been to. People here are selfish scumbags, brainwashed and inbred.
[deleted] ยท 29 points ยท Posted at 16:42:07 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
smokedemon ยท 17 points ยท Posted at 16:47:40 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
Salt lake is awesome! There is a ton of cool things up there to do. And I find that the people up there are pretty easy to deal with compared to the people in Utah valley.
Edit: I got a bunch of messages that put the heat on me because they thought I was talking about people of the LDS faith. I was speaking about people in general. Over the last couple of years of living here, I have noticed that people are generally self-absorbed and apathetic towards others... Regardless of religion or such things. I think that its just the culture. That's just my opinion though.
[deleted] ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 16:51:39 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
4trevor4 ยท 12 points ยท Posted at 17:45:21 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Living in Logan is alright if you are fine with being a hermit.
Ratboy2078 ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 18:56:11 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Hey, Logan can be fun. It has three whole bars!!
willworkforicecream ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 19:34:29 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Did anyone else get that batshit crazy doomsday prepper flyer in the mail?
Ratboy2078 ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 19:47:34 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Yeah that was hilarious. I love how it basically said that we have any where from a few days to a couple of years before the world ends
squrr1 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 00:05:27 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I'm disappointed I don't know who my benevolent overseer is. Seriously, who gives out such awesome advice for free?
AbsoluteHogwash ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 18:58:02 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I'm heading there in a few hours. What do?
Verenom ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 21:13:23 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Turn back.
Idwadd1104 ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 21:25:07 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It won't be cool if the church keeps buying out any non Mormon establishment to keep the area around the temple "sacred"
CuriosMomo ยท -8 points ยท Posted at 19:00:14 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It's really not though. You need to travel more.
๐๏ธ greeperfi ยท 16 points ยท Posted at 19:08:14 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Hmmmm, well I flew 400k miles last year and have been to 20 countries in the last 24 months alone, so not sure that's really the case.
tylerjohnson009 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 20:11:01 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
REKT
Boosted801 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 19:47:39 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I've been all over the world thanks to the military, I visited American Fork in 2010 when I got out of the military and decided that this area of Utah is one of the nicest areas I've ever been to so I decided to up and move from Pennsylvania where I'm originally from. Living here spoils you, I think that YOU need to travel more to realize how lucky you really are.
SmiteVVhirl ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 18:26:43 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Living in Park City always warped my perception of the rest of utah.
Boosted801 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:50:17 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Park City reminds me of Aspen, I never feel like I'm in Utah when I have to head to PC for something.
M00glemuffins ยท -2 points ยท Posted at 20:29:07 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
IMO Park City is the only sane place in the whole state.
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 02:42:19 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I'm mormon...
and I hate provo too. uhtards... its a word among us for a reason
Erekai ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 04:50:55 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You hate me? :'(
Michamus ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 18:48:53 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Ah, there's a joke about Provo.
Why are all the tech companies flocking to Lehi and growing north? Because they got a glimpse of Provo.
a-dark-passenger ยท -2 points ยท Posted at 21:54:25 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
That's a terrible joke. It's not even a joke it's more like an observation
Boosted801 ยท -2 points ยท Posted at 19:45:58 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
I was just down there for the Cruz rally yesterday, I was in AF but moved to Ogden last year so I'm pretty used to the non-Mormon folk again. I forgot how rude the people of Provo are, same goes for AF tho.
edit: i should add that i don't support Cruz, i actually just went because my grandmother wanted to go.
[deleted] ยท 12 points ยท Posted at 22:27:11 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
DownvoteThisUsername ยท -5 points ยท Posted at 23:13:43 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Hope you have a better day, 'Take It Personal' guy
iwaswrongonce ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 23:26:53 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
As you wish, /u/DownvoteThisUsername
DownvoteThisUsername ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 02:03:20 on May 5, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Why thank you kind sir! ;)
Wumaduce ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 19:48:54 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Does anyone else see an upside down dick in the paint under the sticker?
Vatrumyr ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 19:52:36 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Absence makes the heart go yonder.
How dare you say that to me.
Oh wait this isn't /r/JonTron
deadpeaple2 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 21:51:13 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It's an upvote-downvote Tug-Of-War. -5, -3, -1, 0, -1, 1, 0, etc.
soapergem1 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 22:22:09 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
This was funny the first time I heard it... probably 10 years ago. "Repost" is an understatement.
astromono ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 04:33:21 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Every generation rediscovers the same old jokes, it appears.
MrSleepin ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 02:14:03 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
All they have to do is repent...and all is forgiven.
BednarsBoner ยท 19 points ยท Posted at 19:22:19 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
For people out of the loop. The Mormon Church recently issued a new policy forbidding the children of gay parents from being baptized. Before 1978 the Mormon Church prevented Blacks from having the priesthood, which in turn prevented them from being able to access the temple, which in turn prevented Black families from being together in Heaven. The Book of Mormon Teaches that black skin is a curse and a sign of sin. The Church and modern prophets teach that our skin color is a direct sign of our obedience in the preexistence and is a direct indicator of our capacity to progress. Meaning white is best. Black is not. The church is also incredibly sexist, delivering sermon after sermon on the progression and path of a man and his eternal life but having almost NOTHING regarding women. The mother in heaven is not to be spoken of or talked to and the men marry multiple wives for the eternities to populate their planets. A women's role in the church is to disappear.
The Church proactively whitewashes its own history and by its own words into a more "faith promoting" version of history. This results in the members being incredibly ignorant in regards to the actual history of the church such as not knowing the book of abraham is not a literal translation as admitted by the church, not knowing that Joseph Smith had multiple conflicting accounts of the first vision, and for it supposedly taking place in 1820 not a SINGLE record by anyone is to be found regarding this claim to see god before 1832. Not even his journal or parents or anyone in the town or anywhere. Also the Priesthood restoration claim first showed up in in 1834, 4 years after the foundation of the church, they backdated the story to 1829 to make it more believable. Joseph Taught a trinitarian view of the godhead and it evolved over time. Also he married other women who were married to the tune of 34 wives. one of which he forced by telling her that an angle with a flaming sword threatened his life if she did not marry him and he promised her and her family eternal life and exaltation if she did.
Members are controlled in everything we do. To doubt is to fail. To question is to sin. They have actively taught at General Conference and on sundays to avoid researching church issues. It is a cult. We had suicide pacts in the temple prior to 1990 where we mimed slitting our own throats rather than reveal our handshakes we took from free masonry to get into heaven. My secret name is hyrum and by telling you that i can't be with my family in heaven.
A brief summary of issues with the Church can be found here: Letter to a CES director. Other than the letter the Debunking section is a masterpiece of investigation and critical thinking against members of FAIR who develop apologetic arguments and support for the church.
Jopomo ยท 33 points ยท Posted at 22:50:25 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
I used to be Mormon, I grew up in the church and know it very well, not just the doctrinal teachings but the actual attitudes and realities of living in a 90% mormon community in Utah. I don't believe in what the church teaches, I don't believe in any god. So believe me when I say that this guy is getting REALLY radical with this post.
There's a weird trend for people who leave the church to get really vocal and extremist about opposing it, which I think is kind of ironic considering these are the same things they reject in how the church operates, so let me try to address some of this stuff with a more rational outlook.
Denying blacks the priesthood (basically a fuller type of membership in the church) was the church's policy until the 70s. The church addresses this history openly, I had a few Sunday school lessons about it. I'm not trying to defend it, because it is clearly a hypocritical practice and was an early evidence for me that the church is not infallible, but it was a product of its time. In the twenty plus years I lived immersed in the church I never once heard anything disparaging said about blacks. The church doesn't have a good track record with equality, but there is no real racial discrimination at play there, at least not where I grew up, and some high ranking members of the church are black or even African natives. I've never heard anyone claim skin color has an impact on your ability to progress, just that it's a reflection of the choices of your ancestors.
The church's teachings are inherently unequal as far as gender goes, but the church by no means draws women as a secondary partner. The teaching, at least in modern times (it was probably a huge deal more sexist back in the days of polygamy, a really seedy part of the church's history) is that women have a role that is different but no less important than men. They are equal partners with different responsibilities, which is why marriage is crucial. Is it a little sexist? Yes, but it doesn't come off as at all discouraging toward women. Hell every general conference (the big semi annual address to the church as a whole) has a few women speakers. I've known plenty of female mormon business owners, my direct family among them, all very confident empowered people who would probably reject something that felt like it was disparaging them.
As for Joseph Smith, it's pretty up in the air. He did a lot of questionable things and likely told a lot of lies, but records conflict and the history is murky. The church is sure of their version of events, as is the parent comment here, but it's far from clear what the realities are in a lot of cases. Joseph Smith was definitely a polygamist though, and I highly doubt the bulk of his claims. The church has a really gray history in my opinion.
Members are not overly controlled. They pay a tithe of ten percent, which is admittedly steep, they abstain from alcohol, drugs, premarital sex, and a few other things. They regularly attend church. Other than that, they are free to live their lives as they see fit. I didn't leave the church because I felt restricted or like some kind of prisoner, it was a matter of belief. That kind of doubt is, by the way, accepted and even encouraged. Church authority figures advised me to find my own answers, and didn't react badly to my decision to leave.
Basically, like any major organization it has a sometimes sketchy history and some sides to it I'm not fond of, but the mormon church isn't some big secretive organization out for power and wealth. I think it's run and maintained by basically good (if misguided IMO) people. I don't support it, but I hate it when people paint it out as this evil force of religious authority. If you focus on the negative of any group, it looks like a horrific perversion. Reddit is a site with racist subgroups that often condones abuse and persecutes the innocent, but we don't embargo the site. Lets not fall into straw man biases.
Karl_Marxxx ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 01:04:17 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
As a non-member, thank you for offering an even-handed perspective on the matter.
bone-dry ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 00:45:32 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Thank you for voicing a rational ex Mormon view
ArTiyme ยท -2 points ยท Posted at 02:06:15 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
We have the documents to show that Smith was convicted of Treason and Conspiracy of murder, Inciting a riot, Glass looking, and there are more things he was charged with but fled. The only thing miraculous about him was his ability to escape from custody but I imagine he had help. So he was a pretty shitty guy.
M00glemuffins ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 20:30:35 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Have an upvote, somebody must have put up the 'anti-material' bat signal and the TBM's are pouring in.
BednarsBoner ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 20:31:52 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I'm only upset that i was never invited with this bat signal while i was an active member. Is it a phone app now?
M00glemuffins ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 20:34:42 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Probably included in the official Gospel Library app. Hot links you directly to any Reddit comment thread that hits /r/all and has /r/exmormon posters in it so you can do your part to fight evil by hitting blue arrow buttons. Truly we live in a marvelous day and age when the machinations of Satan can be thwarted with the click of a mouse.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:35:14 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
Thewilltosucceed ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 21:20:40 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
He may well be bitter, but what he's saying is accurate.
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 02:43:45 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
well kinda...
but its also not related to the subject at hand.
Pizzaguyj ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 21:58:19 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
No he isn't. He is bending many things, especially the role of skin color and women.
Cl0s3tStoner ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 22:17:55 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
deleted What is this?
Pizzaguyj ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 22:27:21 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I love my church and I will say this: my life is nothing without my faith. What do you accomplish by attacking the Lord's Church? Or any church for that matter? You only further the Adversary's agenda, and fall deeper into your own misery.
Cl0s3tStoner ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 22:32:56 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
deleted What is this?
Pizzaguyj ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 22:36:47 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I spent 15 years outside of the church and then returned. My story is much like the prodigal son. I have tasted both walks of life. I am very happy with what the Lord has done for me after I returned to the Church.
I have many life experiences that have given me testimony of the divinity of the Church. You should leave the church alone because it has only done good for many, and there is much in the world which would wish the light of good be extinguished and tarnished.
Cl0s3tStoner ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:07:08 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
deleted What is this?
Pizzaguyj ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:11:27 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
As if that was what the Church wanted when they laid out their policy. My question is: why are same sex couples sending their ward's to a church they can't conform to? The whole purpose of the church is to perfect the Saints. Their parents obviously don't want to follow the prophet if they want to have same sex marriages.
Thewilltosucceed ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 00:25:30 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Gay people aren't "sending"their kids, they would be allowing them.
Why are Catholics sending their wards, or Baptists, or atheists, or smokers or drinkers or petiole who had or have premarital sex or what have you? Because some missionaries dropped by and taught the kids, or their friends invited them or any of a thousand other possibilities, the kid decided to join, and the parents decided to let the kid pursue what they believe in.
Also, there are quite a few people who believe the teachings of the church are true, except in the case of the teachings regarding homosexuality just as there are those who believed the teachings were true except in the case of the teachings regarding black people.
Cl0s3tStoner ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 21:37:10 on March 22, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
deleted What is this?
Thewilltosucceed ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 23:27:38 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
Really?
Check out the August 17, 1949 First Presidency message, or these scriptures in your book of Mormon, or this from the Eternal Marriage manual, or this, or this.
Or maybe you're talking about men still being sealed to multiple women in heaven? Talk to your bishop and ask them if a man can be sealed to another woman if his current wife dies or look up hire many wives Dallin H. Oaks is sealed to. Look up how many wives Joseph Smith Jr. had in life, or Joseph Fielding Smith or Heber J. Smith.
Edit: spelling
Pizzaguyj ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:29:27 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
How is this spousal abuse?
Thewilltosucceed ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 23:35:15 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Where did he say anything about spousal abuse?
Pizzaguyj ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:47:50 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Got my Posts mixed up.
But yeah that first guy is just plain wrong and I feel sorry for him.
Thewilltosucceed ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 00:19:09 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
No he's not. Go look up the stuff I linked and mentioned, or look up the things he mentioned, or read the cited material on the race and the priesthood essay or the essay on polygamy.
ArTiyme ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 20:34:05 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
See, you call him bitter, but you seem to be awfully defensive about criticisms of LDS. I mean, you'd think if your beliefs were really that sound, they could stand up to criticism without your feelings getting hurt. And it's not like he's lying. It's not exactly a secret about how racist the Church was or how shitty of a person that Joseph Smith was and they he was clearly a con-man and invented the Church to gain power. You guys all know that and still believe it for some reason.
Pizzaguyj ยท -2 points ยท Posted at 22:02:02 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
He is lying. And your perception of Joseph Smith is wrong. Joseph Smith was a prophet of God and restored the Church of Jesus Christ. And his legacy continues to grow today.
ArTiyme ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 22:11:45 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Yeah, I could ignore history and pretend Hitler was just an artist, but it doesn't make me right. Same thing with Smith. He was a liar and a cheat, incited violence, and abused women and children. He was a terrible terrible person.
Pizzaguyj ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 22:24:41 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Oh yeah sure, if I had a mob strip a baby out of my arms and tar and feather me you would call me abusive too?
ArTiyme ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 22:27:32 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Well, if you abused women and children, yes I would. That's why I call him an abuser, cause he did. Regardless of whether or not you had a bad experience that doesn't change what you've done.
Pizzaguyj ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:31:05 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Care to elaborate how he abused anyone?
ArTiyme ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 22:42:51 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Well you could just look up his extensive criminal record. But wait, there's more! There was Fanny Alger who was likely underage, and his 30 other wives, some of which were as young as 14, and his wife spent her life denying that he was ever polygamous, so he was cheating on her. So there are more than a few forms of abuse including spousal abuse and child abuse and pedophilia. And that's a very incomplete list. If you do any kind of research you can find out all sorts of things. But I doubt you will because you prefer ignorance.
Pizzaguyj ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 22:44:45 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Yeah because everything that you read online is true, isn't it?
ArTiyme ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 22:51:29 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Wow. Could you be more hypocritical? Your criticizing my research which has evidence behind it, while saying you believe a guy found some gold tablets and talked to god because you read it in a book and the only evidence is that he claimed he did. You're fucking delusional.
Pizzaguyj ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:59:20 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I do not have to bring proof to a discussion of Faith. Faith is the belief in that which is unseen but which is true. I am better for it.
ArTiyme ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 23:07:51 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Faith is gullibility. It's not a virtue. Every religious person has faith that they are correct, and you can't all be. So either most of you are wrong, or all of you are. What's more likely? That you just happen to be taught the correct religion out of thousands of potential other beliefs, or that you're part of the 999/1000. Just saying statistically, you're probably wrong, and from an empirical standpoint, you're most definitely wrong. And you buffer that with "faith" and pretend it's ok. It's not.
Pizzaguyj ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:21:48 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
This was the very basis of Joseph Smiths question to God... which Church is right? Christ answered that none were that were then on the Earth. Christ then restored his Church through Joseph.
So by my faith, I believe that in post 1830 Earth, The Church of Jesus Christ of LDS is the only true church on earth... although many churches have a portion of the truth.
Pre 1830 it would have been the Church christ began in Judea running to the death of the apostles, and prior to that it was the Jewish faith Prior to Christ's advent, and prior that it was the Israelites who followed Abraham. And prior that, those who followed the prophet patriarchs leading after Noah, and prior that it was those who followed the teachings of Adam and his righteous posterity.
Ever one else will have the chance to hear the Gospel in the spirit world after they have passed this mortal coil. There they can still choose to follow Christ, but they cannot do any further works of Righteousness, but will be judged according to the knowledge which they did have while on Earth when they were alive.
So we are that 1/1000.
ArTiyme ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 23:25:48 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Every single religious person can make nearly that exact same argument and claim they are the 1/1000 too and they'd be just as correct as you. So really, you're just claiming that every religion is the 1/1000. And if that's the case, the ones that say Smith was a blasphemer are totally correct, which then invalidates your religion. So you've got a huge problem.
Pizzaguyj ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:31:45 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Every other religion is an off shoot or sect of another establishment.
Mormonism is pretty original.
ArTiyme ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 23:34:49 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
...what? You just listed a bunch of religions that you're an offshoot from and then claim originality? Hell, not even the book of Mormon contains much original material, it's just stuff from the bible. Not to mention just because you guys are "original" by claiming that Jews made an impossible journey and Black people are cursed, it's not always a good thing. Because you know, impossible and racism.
Pizzaguyj ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:36:41 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You haven't read the Book of Mormon then, or any other books the Church has produced.
ArTiyme ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 23:38:47 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Not most of it no, but I know the figure. And no, I wouldn't read what the Church produces. I already told you that it was founded by a liar and a con-man, why would I listen to people who hold that person in high regard? That would make me an idiot. You don't take neo-nazi's very seriously because they think they are correct.
Pizzaguyj ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:49:34 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I am done.
Thewilltosucceed ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 04:18:55 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
In that case, I should just say "I have faith that Joseph was a fraud". According to you, that would absolve me of any need to provide proof.
But since that line of reasoning is bunk, we will provide evidence. Joseph coerced women by telling them an Angel had commanded him to marry them, saying that if they did marry him that they and their families would be assured a place in heaven, but if they didn't the Angel would return to strike him down with a flaming sword (check out Helen Mar Kimble's diary).
He sent men on missions and married their wives while they were gone. In total, he married 11 women who already had living husbands:
*Lucinda Pendleton Morgan Harris *Zina Diantha Huntington (Jacobs) *Presendia Lanthrop Huntington (Buell) *Sylvia Porter Sessions Lyon *Mary Elizabeth Rollins Lightner *Patty Bartlett (Sessions) *Marinda Nancy Johnson (Hyde) *Elizabeth Davis (Brackenbury Durfy) *Sarah Maryetta Kingsley (Howe Cleveland) *Ruth D. Vose (Sayers) *Elvira Annie Cowles (Holmes)
You can confirm a good bit of this using the sources cited in the LDS.org essay regarding polygamy.
Pizzaguyj ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:30:13 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Also, Hitler killed millions. And you compare that to Joseph smith?
ArTiyme ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 22:33:09 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
No. I was just saying that I could also ignore history and pretend that Hitler wasn't so bad like you're doing with Smith. I was just demonstrating your ignorance using a simile, which is taking two different situations and using them comparatively to highlight something about the other. I'm only explaining this because you apparently need it literally spelled out for you.
Pizzaguyj ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 22:41:39 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I know what a simile is. Your pride is what drives you to attack something that you don't understand. You attack the prophet of the Lord and say he is evil. But you have no proof and no basis for such an attack. Joseph Smith has done more for our world we live in now than you realize due to YOUR ignorance. And Satan pulls your puppet strings to entice you into attacking what has only been a good influence on the world, and a man who has seen the very God who you are made in the image of. One day you will have to answer that God for the words you write now.
ArTiyme ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:46:05 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Smith_and_the_criminal_justice_system
https://questioningmormonism.wordpress.com/2011/08/12/208/
He was evil. We have proof.
Hahaha you probably feel stupid for that now. Actually, probably not because you're going to ignore the proof.
I love the irony here of calling me ignorant. You don't even realize what YOU believe, yet I'm the ignorant one. That's a laugh.
My biggest regret is that when you find out you're wrong, I won't be able to say "I told you so."
Pizzaguyj ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:49:18 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
If I am wrong, then what is right? Do you have an answer to that?
ArTiyme ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 22:56:21 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
That's a pretty vague question. Right about what? Mormonism? Religion in general? Morality? What are you referring to?
Pizzaguyj ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 23:01:07 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
What is your answer to life?
ArTiyme ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 23:05:14 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Likely is was a process over around a billions years before a simple type of RNA formed from organic materials found in shallow water that could reproduce and evolution took over from there. It's not been proven, but that's the only explanation that works from what we've observed in nature.
Pizzaguyj ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 23:12:32 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Then why do you exist? Or do you believe your life has no purpose?
ArTiyme ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 23:15:21 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I exist because I can, and my purpose is whatever I make it. If you claim you have a higher purpose than that, you're just making assumptions and asserting it is true and that doesn't make it true at all. Any other purpose that you claim is imposed on you by some divine being is just something you believe exists, you can never demonstrate that you actually have that purpose.
Pizzaguyj ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:24:27 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I appreciate your honest answer. But I choose to believe that we are sourced from the divine. And that we have a divine future if we live worthy of it.
ArTiyme ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 23:29:23 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Look, having beliefs is fine. But think that a con-man, murderer, conspirator for murder and thief is the person you think your god would choose to relay a divine message means you think your deity is rather incompetent. I sure as hell wouldn't choose that guy, it would (and does) discredit everything that leaves his mouth. Based on that fact alone you should call bullshit on Smith and his story, but you have many more other reasons that I already gave today to realize that Smith lied to you and you're just gobbling it up.
Pizzaguyj ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:34:00 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Sounds to me like you have your own issues to deal with.
As I said, my church has turned my life around. That is proof enough for me.
ArTiyme ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 23:35:42 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Whatever it sounds like to you is irrelevant. And maybe your church did, but you've seen the evidence of what a horrible person Smith was. You can't deny that anymore.
Pizzaguyj ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:37:24 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I see no evidence.
ArTiyme ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 23:40:28 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
And there you go. Intentional ignorance. I will say go back and read the links but you won't. You're being stupid on purpose because you like you beliefs even if their untrue. That's just plain dishonest. Are you saying you're a dishonest person? And want to stay one?
Pizzaguyj ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:49:00 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I am done.
ArTiyme ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 23:51:30 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Well, that's a pretty clear answer. Sorry that you want to be that way.
Pizzaguyj ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:51:01 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Looks like every arrest was never met with a conviction. Results inconclusive.
ArTiyme ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 22:54:37 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
If you actually read, it's because he fled the state. Several states. Several times. He was convicted several times, for treason for instance, and escaped custody. So not only are you being morally reprehensible, you're just plain wrong. You know, if you actually read some things, you might learn.
Cl0s3tStoner ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 22:19:09 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
deleted What is this?
Pizzaguyj ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:28:28 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Care to elaborate? New temples are being opened every year. That doesn't sound like a diminishing legacy.
Cl0s3tStoner ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 22:34:10 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
deleted What is this?
Pizzaguyj ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 22:43:17 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It is true that tough times are ahead for the Lord's saints. And that has been prophesied.
Cl0s3tStoner ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 01:30:29 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
deleted What is this?
GoonCommaThe ยท -4 points ยท Posted at 21:20:51 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
None of their rant has anything to do with the picture.
ArTiyme ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 21:22:54 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Well the context is that Provo has a very high Mormon population and I'm assuming the guy who made the comment is familiar with that, and the sticker is referencing them.
GoonCommaThe ยท -3 points ยท Posted at 21:35:57 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You're reaching.
ArTiyme ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 21:38:12 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Well I'm just explaining why he decided to chime in. It's not like it was a video of a bunny doing a backflip and he's like "As an Ex-mormon, there are problems with the church..."
GoonCommaThe ยท -4 points ยท Posted at 21:55:42 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Except it is like that. Their comment is irrelevant. They claim to be clarifying but all they're doing is going on an angry rant without even saying anything to address the subject of the picture. Now you're desperately trying to defend them for some reason.
ArTiyme ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 22:17:14 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I'm just explaining that he feels like there is a connection between the photo in Provo and his feelings on the Mormon church. That's all. And considering the amount of Mormons here in the comments, I'd say he was pretty spot on.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:19:50 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
GoonCommaThe ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:28:05 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
When did I become a Mormon? How desperate are you that you feel the need to make things up about me to defend bullshit rants?
GoonCommaThe ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 22:29:26 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
There isn't a connection. Their rant has nothing to do with those photo. They in no way even address the subject of the photo. All they do is go on a rant based on the title. They claim that rant is clarifying things when in reality it is completely irrelevant.
ArTiyme ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:30:55 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Ok. Say it is irrelevant. So what? It's not like he's wrong and whatever the reason he felt the need to post it anyways. Oh well.
GoonCommaThe ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 22:34:07 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
And none of that changes the fact that it's irrelevant. I pointed out it was irrelevant and you proceeded to downvote me and try desperately to defend their rant. It's bullshit to start your comment with "for anyone out of the loop" and then go on an irrelevant rant. I'm not going to sit and watch people spew bullshit.
ArTiyme ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:48:03 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Well see, that's what you think, and I disagree. And you wouldn't give a shit if he wasn't attacking your beliefs and was 100% correct. The only argument you can make is that it doesn't really connect to the above photo, but he thought it did, and since you're here, I think he was right. Also, I'm not downvoting you, that's other people who think that your argument is stupid.
GoonCommaThe ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:18:07 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Oh, so now because I call someone in their bullshit I must be a Mormon? Is that the argument you're going with? Can only Mormons call people on bullshit now? Why are you so desperate here? You are doing anything you can to defend this guy's bullshit rant, including making things up about me. You are embarrassing yourself.
They went on an irrelevant bullshit rant. I called them on it. You are now attempting to attack me to defend them. It's pathetic. I'm done here.
ArTiyme ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 23:21:43 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
The only "bullshit" you're calling out is that you think it's irrelevant. And yes, because of that argument it leads me to believe you're a mormon because other than that, there is no reason to get upset about whatever made the poster think that it was relevant. And if you think I'm embarrassing myself just for disagreeing with you and I have a valid reason for it, then you need to get off your pedestal before you fall and break something.
McCromer ยท -3 points ยท Posted at 19:40:58 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
Found the current mo that can't take criticism.
Edit: Carc made a good point replying to me and I am keeping this post up so users can see.
carc ยท 11 points ยท Posted at 19:46:04 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
I embrace criticism. I just think it's funny that this person is apparently so butthurt by religion as to vomit all over threads that are only just vaguely related to mormonism (read: Provo city). I wouldn't stand the same for spasmodic attacks on Islam or Judaism.
McCromer ยท 14 points ยท Posted at 20:11:21 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
That actually is a good point. I hadn't thought of it that way.
velligoose ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:50:02 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
His rage-boner is throbbing so hard I can feel the heat through my screen.
GoonCommaThe ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 21:21:24 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
The rant had nothing to do with the picture.
BednarsBoner ยท -7 points ยท Posted at 19:38:28 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Found the TBM who still hasn't read the gospel topic essays on LDS.org and still doesn't know that the book of abraham is not a literal translation.
But go ahead and defend the institution that tells you that you can be with your family forever as long as you obey them and their racist and homophobic ways.
"suffer the little children and forbid them not, for of such is the kingdom of god". Hypocrite.
[deleted] ยท -16 points ยท Posted at 19:44:17 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
BednarsBoner ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 19:46:37 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
How does it make you feel to know that the book of abraham is not a literal translation?
Go ahead, its LDS.org. Bednar spoke with CES a few weeks ago and all these essays will be coming to a sunday lesson near you.
https://www.lds.org/topics/translation-and-historicity-of-the-book-of-abraham?lang=eng
Cl0s3tStoner ยท 10 points ยท Posted at 19:53:56 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
deleted What is this?
BednarsBoner ยท 9 points ยท Posted at 20:04:16 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I used to be one of these People. Served my mission in Indiana. Married my wife in SLC temple. I was serving as Ward Mission Leader when i read the CES letter.
carc ยท -4 points ยท Posted at 20:16:41 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
And because you gave up your faith, you want to drag down others with you? People who find joy and peace in the core teachings of the church?
BednarsBoner ยท 10 points ยท Posted at 20:19:31 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I have no issue with people having religion. I have issue with that religion lying and deceiving its members into a more "faith promoting" version of history. Its dishonest.
sequestration ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 20:55:48 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Amen to that.
It's manipulative and wrong. I appreciate that you are not sitting idly by and ignoring the greater issue, even if others are trying to shut you down and suggesting you should. I am glad there are still some people who are not afraid to do the right thing.
LoudGuyUpFront ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 20:37:07 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Seems like you're letting it all drag you down and infuriate you still. Grab a beer and watch some basketball. Stephen F. Austin is flirting with another upset. I guarantee it's way more fun than worrying about a religion that is apparently in your past.
sequestration ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:58:57 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Seems like you're letting it all drag you down and infuriate you still. Grab a beer and stop worrying so much about what other people are doing. I guarantee it's way more fun than spending your limited free time worrying about assuming that you know what everyone else is thinking and thinking you are the boss and telling them what they should be doing.
BednarsBoner ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:05:40 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Leaving mormonism is a lot harder than you would think. See /r/exmormon for a while and it doesn't take long to understand.
LoudGuyUpFront ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 18:20:11 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You may be assuming a bit too much about me here...
In my experience, leaving mormonism is about as hard as you make it on yourself. Be confident in who you are and be comfortable with yourself in that it just wasn't right for you. Live the life you want to live, be the kind of genuinely good person that will likely put many church members' artificial kindness to shame, and be honest with those around you about both the distance you'd like to have from the church, as well as the comfort that distance gives you. Sure, there will be push-back. There always is.
Making a big deal about leaving it behind and trying to drag down others with you isn't going to help anyone around you or yourself through the process.
Like I said, I think everyone who doesn't feel the church is good for them could be much better off by grabbing a beer, doing something they enjoy, and growing comfortable with not feeling bad about that all.
Dwelling on the dealings and history of a church that caused any of that grief will only allow the grief to further linger.
Source: Raised Mormon, even served 15 days of a mission, grandfather was in the 70, father was a bishop, mother has unhealthy obsession with all things the church.
ArTiyme ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:20:15 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Some people can let it go. I personally believe that religion has gone un-criticized for entirely too long and it's caused quite a few problems in all kinds of different faiths. I don't have a problem with people having beliefs until those beliefs are detrimental to others.
ArTiyme ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 20:36:42 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
And, on top of everything, you guys believe in a clearly man-made religion that promises it's followers thing it can't possibly deliver on. From my perspective, that's pretty shitty, so why wouldn't I want it to stop?
sequestration ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 21:00:53 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You shouldn't.
ArTiyme ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 21:03:40 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Well that like, just your opinion man.
sequestration ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 00:32:37 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It's the same as yours...
EDIT: I just realized I misread your comment. I thought you were asking why you should stop speaking up, and I was saying you shouldn't. I realize now you are saying why wouldn't you want those lies to stop.
I agree with you.
ArTiyme ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 00:53:10 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Haha, no worries. Simple misunderstanding. Happens to us all.
carc ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 19:52:05 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I'm fine with it, really. Have been for like 10 years. Why are you trying so hard to attack the belief system of others?
BednarsBoner ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 19:58:38 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Because that belief system attacks homosexuals and those who leave the church. That belief system controls politics in the state of Utah and there are many of us here who won't tolerate bigotry and racism.
But really its about honesty. The church is not honest. You can believe in whatever you choose, but to have a church lie and distort its own record to promote a more faithful version and to demand so much in return isn't right.
As a mormon you should know how much the church requires, that choice should be made on the basis of honesty. Not the whitewashed version the church promotes.
[deleted] ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 20:12:02 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
I correct incorrect beliefs whatever and whenever.
Whether that's people believing in fortune telling, astrology, alchemy, homeopathy, anti-vaccination, climate change as a hoax, blah blah blah.
Your religion isn't any different. There is nothing about religion that makes it special or protects it from criticism that we would level at any other belief on the planet. Every political, scientific, whatever idea ever formulated is open to attack and ridicule except, apparently, your religion.
Bullshit. Religion is just an idea. And a poorly thought out one too, lacking any solid evidence whatsoever and most religions have some really horrific shit in their history if not still ongoing.
velligoose ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:51:10 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
He's proselytizing with a vengeance.
Derbl ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:23:03 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Because the deluded members don't keep the bullshit faith (that joe smith made up in plain view) to themselves.
From the mountain meadows massacre to the malheur occupation, mormonism has had real, tangible, negative consequences for those whose minds are not infested with it's bullshit and that's why many stand in opposition to it, the same as we stand in opposition to scientology, catholicism, and other cults.
It's an elective, collective mental illness that you're selling - nothing more.
sequestration ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 21:02:09 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You are right. But I think the "elective" portion is debatable. They don't make it feel all that elective in some cases.
LFK1236 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:46:01 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
That is interesting, but it doesn't really provide any context at all to the sticker or to Provo (which I can work out is a town in the U.S.). I learned something, but it didn't put me in the loop, as far as I can tell.
GoonCommaThe ยท -6 points ยท Posted at 21:20:25 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
None of what you said has anything to do with this picture. We get it, you're angry. Irrelevant rants just make you look like an idiot.
BednarsBoner ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:01:27 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
True.
But not as dumb as refusing to baptize the children of gay kids right?
GoonCommaThe ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:11:39 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Nope, definitely just as dumb. You have let yourself become so consumed with anger that you are unable to express it in a healthy or reasonable way. Either grow up or get help.
BednarsBoner ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 02:04:46 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
This is the truth about the church and apparently you can't handle it.
GoonCommaThe ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 02:08:10 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It is completely irrelevant here. You let your anger take precedence over your reason.
BednarsBoner ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 02:10:18 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
not really.
GoonCommaThe ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 02:14:48 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
No, really. You went on an irrelevant rant because you'd rather be angry than reasonable. You pretended to be adding to the discussion when you did nothing of the sort.
BednarsBoner ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 02:37:32 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I started a discussion separate from the thread and thats it. Anytime to bring up a hate group and its accurate history is a good time. You are the one who can't get over it. Downvote and move on.
GoonCommaThe ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 02:57:13 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
So yes, your rant was irrelevant to the post and you admit it, yet you pretended it wasn't. The fact that you think Mormons qualify as a hate group is ridiculous. Do you even know what a hate group is? You are showcasing far more hatred than they are. Honestly you should seek professional help to deal with the amount of anger inside of you.
BednarsBoner ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 03:38:30 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You have problems
GoonCommaThe ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 03:40:15 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I'm not full of anger like you are. I'm not letting anger control me life like you are. I'm not letting anger take precedence over reason like you are.
a-dark-passenger ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 21:56:14 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Complaining about the rants doesn't look good either.
GoonCommaThe ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 22:12:11 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Oh yeah, fuck me for calling people out on their bullshit.
[deleted] ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 19:12:07 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
Cl0s3tStoner ยท 15 points ยท Posted at 19:54:19 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
deleted What is this?
pierdonia ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 00:42:50 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Yes, Reddit is known for being overrun by Mormons. Nothing negative about them ever gets upvoted
[deleted] ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 19:39:51 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
Cl0s3tStoner ยท 18 points ยท Posted at 19:49:36 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
deleted What is this?
Boosted801 ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 19:51:10 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
or they just move to Sugarhouse with the rest of the hipsters.
Thewilltosucceed ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 04:49:22 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
Because Provo and BYU aren't full of them at all./s
AgentFuckFace ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:06:15 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
No one wants to live in Utah.
carc ยท 11 points ยท Posted at 20:12:36 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Until you actually live here, and realize it's actually pretty amazing. Skiing, snowboarding, hiking, rockclimbing, four-wheeling, shooting, etc. So many outdoor activities. And SUPER wide streets!
I came out here for school and stayed because of the aforementioned reasons, and the fact the tech industry is booming out here.
The mountains are beyond beautiful.
MaximusLupis ยท 9 points ยท Posted at 20:39:44 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Too hot for me. I prefer Alaska. But I do love visiting Utah. People here on Reddit haven't been outside their parents basement so they probably think Utah has laws against sodomy or something and think the whole state is a backwards fundamentalist Mormon town. Glad to know that stereotyping is okay as long as the victims are presumably white...
Qwik_Sand ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 21:16:38 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
As a Non Mormon, Mormons are the nicest and most harmless people I've ever met. It created a healthy environment in Provo and it really helped my depression. I don't know what the people in this thread are talking about. Nobody is preaching shit or pressuring people.
8oz_of_sweet_heroin ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 21:47:36 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
But Reddit tells me there's a preacher on every corner, and I'll be spit on for not being Mormon! Are you telling me they're lying?
MaximusLupis ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 10:11:02 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Im telling you half of these people probably dont travel outside their hometown often enough to know what mormons are...
8oz_of_sweet_heroin ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 21:29:33 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You forgot this is Reddit, most of them probably don't leave their parents basement
Thewilltosucceed ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 04:51:14 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I've been preached at and pressured. Guess I'm nobody.
[deleted] ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 22:52:16 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
MaximusLupis ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 10:09:33 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
No actually, im just pointing out the problems with the blind unwarranted hatred of people in a religion you "enlightened" people seem to not take the time to understand...
stcwhirled ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 23:27:40 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
That's called a vacation...
iwaswrongonce ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:30:00 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I work in finance. I know Goldman has a massive MO operation there too, so not only can you be outside all the time, you can also make decent money (it's MO, but it's still Goldman).
Thewilltosucceed ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 04:51:45 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
MO?
iwaswrongonce ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 08:18:09 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Sorry, middle office.
[deleted] ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 21:59:06 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Obviously never been.
The good is great and the shitty sucks, like anywhere else.
But the good:shitty ratio beats most places I've ever been, and I've been a lot of places.
DaimyoValk ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 20:43:10 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
If you are able to ignore some of the cultural issues and judgmental people, Utah (specifically the Wasatch Front) is a great place to live. A utopia for outdoorsmen, relatively modern infrastructure, 4 seasons with no real extreme, extremely safe, surrounded by sexy mountains, and growth is booming.
Thewilltosucceed ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 04:54:16 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
No real extreme? Have you across sky stayed for a winter? You go from 70-90ยฐF summers to -10ยฐF winters.
DaimyoValk ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 10:48:27 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
It is closer to summer highs around 90-100F and winter lows around 5-15F (without wind chill) here in the Salt Lake valley. Although even with your temps, I wouldn't say those are too extreme. Albeit, they are on the far end of both spectrums. Otherwise, we don't have anything serious going on besides the occasional blizzard and wind storm.
Thewilltosucceed ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 14:20:14 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I'm down in Utah valley in the Springville/Mapleton area. It's hit <0ยฐ each year I've lived here. Course, that's only been ~3 years.
The_Withheld_Name ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 16:04:47 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It can't be that simple. Men don't become pedophiles due to abstinence. I suppose it could be that men with that disorder are drawn to the church for abuse opportunities and/or for other reasons. Clergyman is apparently a career with a relatively high proportion of psychopaths (people unable to feel empathy), so perhaps some subgroup of them are pedos.
tehspamninja ยท 58 points ยท Posted at 16:17:53 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You're taking a funny bumper sticker a little too seriously, I think.
Bejeweled_Bird ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 19:19:12 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Would it be funny if it said "All men are rapists"?
FarmerTedd ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 20:47:03 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
http://i.imgur.com/zbCFh62.gif
The_Withheld_Name ยท -29 points ยท Posted at 16:19:59 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Ok Donald.
Green8001 ยท -33 points ยท Posted at 16:46:32 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
He's being a total retard.
sequestration ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 21:09:52 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Why do you feel the need to use "retard" pejoratively when people have asked very nicely for you to be a little more considerate and when there are a million other better words that aren't shitting on a whole group of people at the same time?
McBralee ยท 14 points ยท Posted at 16:21:25 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Potentially as well, paedophiles may look to the church as a way of defeating or surprising their disorder which may be due to earlier socialisation that creates the church as a bastion of morality for them. Obviously then the power that the church can grant individuals and as you said a large proportion may be psychopaths (source needed) could easily create a subculture of paedophillia
artgo ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:41:16 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
But isn't one of the problems how many decades these sex problems go unreported. A lot like domestic violence.
Maybe it just became a trend to report it at the church... so the reporting is skewed. What about orphan homes and foster homes that don't have ties to the church - maybe the reporting did not change?
The_Withheld_Name ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 16:27:40 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I'm not seeing a proper science article with research on this but some reasonably reputable sites put out this career list for better or worse, http://www.forbes.com/sites/kellyclay/2013/01/05/the-top-10-jobs-that-attract-psychopaths/#3408988473c3
Bejeweled_Bird ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:20:29 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Teachers have a higher offending rates then priests and under your assumption how do you explain family members being the largest offenders period.
[deleted] ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 20:10:27 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Family members is easy.
It's opportunity. Same reason you're more likely to be killed by a family member. It's all about opportunity.
Bejeweled_Bird ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 20:24:00 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
So what you are saying it: families create an environment of pedophiles and psychopaths.
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 19:39:31 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Not sure where you're getting that statistic from but the entire reason the global Catholic Church is in a sex abuse crisis is because the scale and extent of the abuse of hidden so long and so well. Teachers don't have the same power of authority or internal support network of fellow pedophiles to assist in concealing their crimes so it would not be surprising to me if they had 'statistically' higher offending rates as they are much, much more likely to be caught.
I would be extremely skeptical of quoting "higher rates" against an organisation built on secrecy.
Bejeweled_Bird ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:52:25 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You forgetting Sandusky? The teachers union which is the most powerful union in California?
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2012/02/is_sexual_abuse_in_schools_very_common_.html
10% of children reported inappropriate behavior by teachers. There are 50 million students in the US right now, lets be realistic and knock that down to the average abuse rate which is 4%. that means right now in the US 2 million children have been abused by school teachers - not many arrests of school teachers have there been? That's because they are very well protected.
Ketherah ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 18:53:06 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
To normal people there is a line. On one side there is normal sexual behavior, and on the other side is the taboo (pedophilia, incest). In some churches the line encompasses every sexual act (until married). Masturbation is a deadly sin, so what's wrong with diddling a kid? It's all taboo to them. There is no line.
The_Withheld_Name ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:07:03 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I wouldn't want to put pedophilia in the same category as incest because incest can be consensual, unlike pedophilia, but your point is well taken.
stcwhirled ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:27:02 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
And /r/Wincest has arrived.
The_Withheld_Name ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:28:15 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I don't know what that is, nor can I bother looking it up. Are you suggesting I support incest?
Coolbreezy ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 16:32:06 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It's a great cover for people who don't want their families asking why they are not married and are hanging out with young boys.
mojofrog ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 12:17:27 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
or other men
The_Withheld_Name ยท -10 points ยท Posted at 16:33:53 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
-And people who 'hear' voices.
ABCosmos ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 18:02:59 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
They want sex, and they are using their position of power to get it from people who they can control and keep quiet and intimidated.
The_Withheld_Name ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 22:16:54 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I understand that. So the question is why they'd be raping kids rather than jacking off if they're just regular guys who aren't pedophilic; I'm guessing pedophiles are drawn to the career.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:00:50 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Well, maybe it can be that simple. Years of sexual repression and confusion might wear down a person's healthy opposition to paedophilia. It's not that it makes priests attracted to kids, but kids become the unfortunate outlet due to being easy targets.
The_Withheld_Name ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:05:22 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Now you're left with the question of how a priest could think that molesting and/or raping kids is better than jacking off if not a pathological pedo.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 07:02:54 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You're assuming paedophilia only occurs in explicitly insane people. Maybe it's an uncomfortable reality that some 'normal' people aren't too far from committing it and it can be developed with the right circumstances.
I don't know for sure why paedopriests do what they do, just saying I can see this is a possibility.
The_Withheld_Name ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 13:51:42 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I didn't say insane. They do however have a brain disorder though with some physiological similarities to bipolar, schizophrenia, & autism.
Bejeweled_Bird ยท -2 points ยท Posted at 19:21:28 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Most offenders are family members who have no restrictions on their reproduction, they just choose to abuse their own children - which makes your view fall flat.
ArTiyme ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 20:24:37 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Actually, it could be for the very same reasons that it happens in family settings. And family doesn't necessarily mean parents, there's a reason for that whole creepy uncle stereotype. Who do people generally allow unrestricted access to their children? Their church leaders and siblings.
Bejeweled_Bird ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:25:49 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
And teachers, police officers, babysitters, doctors, dentists.
ArTiyme ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 20:42:20 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You don't really allow Police Officers unrestricted access to your children, do you? And if your kid is spending copious amounts of time with a doctor, there's usually a reason for that. Some of the others, we've seen how it goes wrong.
Bejeweled_Bird ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 21:00:19 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Police officers often visit schools and have the authority to pickup your kid from the street. anything can happen while your child is alone with a doctor too.
sequestration ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 21:17:10 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
What?! Who lets these people have unrestricted access to their kids?
I can see a kid's babysitter having the most access. But they certainly rarely have total unrestricted access. And many people use nanny cams.
Bejeweled_Bird ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 21:22:00 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You sitting in the kids classroom, watching your child when they are outside, in the doctors office at all times or sitting there watching your kid get their teeth done? These are professions people don't even think twice about.
[deleted] ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 06:50:45 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
We're talking about priests not family members. They could be different systems.
Bejeweled_Bird ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 07:40:02 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Which would mean families are more dangerous than priests.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 08:06:06 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Uhh I don't see where you got that from or why it matters but whatever
thealphamike ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 16:20:16 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I think they're referring to other unwanted contact than just pedophiles for this area.
The_Withheld_Name ยท 10 points ยท Posted at 16:28:59 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
-You think "fondlers" refers to something other than sexual abuse of children?
Nerdburton ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:00:34 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I'm pretty sure that it's specifically referring to the people that have been going around in the Provo area groping young women.
The_Withheld_Name ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 21:33:42 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It specifically says "the church".
ArTiyme ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 20:25:25 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I immediately took it as a reference to the Catholic Church.
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 19:57:03 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I think you are wrong. "Fondle" has a very specific cogitation.
[deleted] ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 20:33:50 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
That is probably indeed the case. E.g. about 2% of catholic priests are pedophiles. Compared to 0.1% or so in the general population (note: the numbers regarding this are generally very questionable and depend on definition, methodology and so on). That's quite a correlation.
Depends on what you mean by "become". Of course there is no direct effect that forces abstinent men to abuse children, but it indeed seems to increase the risk. A significant portion of child molesters aren't pedophiles (depending on what source you use maybe half are). So it's not unlikely that prudery does indeed increase the risk of children getting molested.
The_Withheld_Name ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 21:32:57 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I guess it could increase the risk... but on what planet is jacking off worse than rape or molestation? Is that what I'm supposed to believe these priests & their protectors believe?
NightPain ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:16:05 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I am very curious as to where the 2% and 0.1% numbers come from. Give me a source that says Catholic priests abuse children more frequently than other groups because every single source I've read (Newsweek, BBC, Washington Post [point #3], The Guardian) says that abuse is either at the same levels as other men or lower (compared to other religious denominations as well as different public school systems [CBS]) within the Catholic Church. I haven't ever read an actual primary source comparing abuse inside/outside the Catholic Church that didn't show lowered levels of both sexual predators and cases of abuse. The Church definitely did and is still probably covering up and that's where I believe the true root of the problem is, but I feel like conflating a cover up with the idea that priests are more likely to be abusers is dishonest and doesn't help anyone.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 05:55:07 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
The 2% figure is what pope Francis said. It already linked that. IIrc it's based on a study that was published some time before he quoted it.
The overall figure is hard to find out. It's certainly below 5% (was an upper limit, probably much lower), the author of the 5% figure now estimates it at 1%:
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-28526106
I have to admit that the 0.1% figure is an estimate that I once read in a German newspaper (IIrc it was an article about a study), so sorry, I can't find the source right now. At least not in English.
The point is that 2% is much higher than most estimates for the overall population.
bjt23 ยท -5 points ยท Posted at 16:58:24 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I don't know man, they can't masturbate either. It messes your brain up if you go like that for too long. I'm guessing if I went 20 years without jerking it I'd be all sorts of insane.
The_Withheld_Name ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 17:23:52 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I don't buy it. You're telling me you would sexually abuse children if not allowed to ejaculate? That is utter madness. That is not normal. These aren't random guys; these are guys with particular traits being drawn to an ideology & associated position of authority over others.
bjt23 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 18:11:21 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I'm not saying I would tomorrow, or even ever. I'm just saying that after 20 years I'd be a little nuts, maybe different people go nuts in different ways.
Bejeweled_Bird ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 19:22:14 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
So you are saying you are a dangerous sexual predator unable to control yourself if you don't get to do certain things? You should be locked up.
bjt23 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 19:24:09 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I'm saying everyone is. Most people get some sort of release every couple years at least so that's why we aren't overrun with serial killers, bestiality, incest, and child abuse.
Bejeweled_Bird ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 19:38:14 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I don't know about you but I have never decided that the best way for me to "release" is to abuse a child or harm people, someone should go ahead and take a good hard look at you if you think that is a reasonable response.
bjt23 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 20:18:30 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
No it isn't a reasonable response, I wasn't saying it was. What I was saying is that sexual repression causes child abuse.
Bejeweled_Bird ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:22:59 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
That isn't true at all because if it was true then it wouldn't be a worldwide issue from parents to teacher to government officials. There is zero basis for reality in your assertion unless you think it is a reasonable response to not having sex.
bjt23 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 20:29:44 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Sexual repression isn't a requirement for parents, teachers, or government officials. Only priests.
Bejeweled_Bird ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:32:50 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Oh right the offending rate for parents, teachers and government officials is zero isn't that right?
sequestration ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 21:20:15 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Where did he say this was the only cause?
The_Withheld_Name ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 22:13:39 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Yes, different people: namely people with the brain disorder pedophilia. And why would they rape rather than jack off if, as you suggest, they're regular guys?
bjt23 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:19:08 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Because they're told jacking off is evil and makes you burn in hell?
The_Withheld_Name ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 22:26:57 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
They're also told that of adultery. Perhaps they're thinking kids don't have souls (indeed they don't) & thus it doesn't count as adultery.
bjt23 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:07:14 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Maybe when you put objectively terrible things on the same level as their own version of terrible things, you run the risk that all morality will look optional if it can't be held to? Like how when kids try pot and don't go insane like they were told would happen, they assume all the stuff they've been told about other drugs like heroin is also a lie.
The_Withheld_Name ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:30:43 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I understand the second sentence but not quite the first.
bjt23 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 00:41:19 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Say your morality system puts all sexual activity on the level of rape, whether it's touching yourself or violently attacking someone else. They are all extremely evil under your morality system. One day you decide this is a system you can no longer abide by. However, since you see all sexual activity as morally equivalent, you do not have the aversion to rape that other people do. To you, it is no better or worse than masturbation.
The_Withheld_Name ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 00:46:48 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Yes; some of those guys must be in that kind of frame of mind. I'm reminded of a Christian convicted murderer I saw on a prison documentary. He explicitly says it's just as bad to steal a cracker as it is to kill someone (& I think Biblical Jesus does use that kind of perverse all or nothing language at times while threatening eternal torture.)
bjt23 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 00:55:24 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I don't think the Catholic Church teaches that kind of absolutism anymore, but then again most priests aren't pedophiles and there are of course differing schools of theology within the church. Still, there's nothing in the Bible about priests not being able to marry, it just seems like they're needlessly creating problems for themselves.
The_Withheld_Name ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 14:00:50 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
The Jesus character in the Bible talks about sexual lust like it's among the most evil things around, so it's not super hard to see how they get such a warped perspective.
[deleted] ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 18:35:09 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
The_Withheld_Name ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:10:24 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
We're not naturally driven to reproduce in the interest of the species (sex drive is more primal & evolved without a concept of species), but that's a side discussion. And I'm left wondering why these guys would rape and/or molest rather than jacking off if they aren't pedos.
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 23:22:55 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
The_Withheld_Name ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:29:32 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I'm skeptical.
Bejeweled_Bird ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 19:22:45 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You forgot the part where the largest demographic of offenders are parents and family members.
[deleted] ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 19:05:22 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
Thewilltosucceed ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 21:31:06 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Where are you greeting that from? That is still a part of the law of chastity. Evidence: this and this.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 21:58:54 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
Thewilltosucceed ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:03:24 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It is from 1985, yes. As you can see by following the link provided, it is still used in this form. You can confirm this by checking the Gospel Library app as well.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:42:43 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
Thewilltosucceed ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 00:16:53 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
That isn't official policy or doctrine as far as I'm aware.
You might be interested in doing a search on "masturbation" as well as one with the words "in/after marriage" on LDS.org.
surfacing_cannibal ยท -11 points ยท Posted at 17:17:26 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You have to be crazy to belive in god (imo),so yea that fits,on another note they should be hung for it.
Maggie_Smiths_Anus ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 18:42:48 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
*Hanged. If you're going to spout how you're too intellectual to believe in a god try using proper grammar. Makes you look like less of a dumbass.
surfacing_cannibal ยท -2 points ยท Posted at 18:47:21 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
http://grammarist.com/usage/hanged-hung/ Was not using past tense.....dumbass.
Maggie_Smiths_Anus ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:23:34 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You weren't using past tense you fucking autist. The hanging hasn't happened yet.
Thewilltosucceed ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 21:33:01 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Was not is acceptable as is weren't. Weren't is the contraction of was not.
Maggie_Smiths_Anus ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 00:44:55 on March 23, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I meant his original comment he made that I replied to. Christ is everyone in this thread derelict?
surfacing_cannibal ยท -2 points ยท Posted at 19:31:35 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Real adult calling someone autistic wow go back to correcting people's grammar since you have nothing better to do. Go fuck yourself.
Maggie_Smiths_Anus ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 19:37:45 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Haha so mad because you've been proven an idiot.
Thewilltosucceed ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 21:41:29 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
While his suggestion of what to do with religious people is detestable, his use of "hung" and "was not" are consistent with today's use. Especially was not. Weren't is literally a contraction of those two words.
lostpasswordnoemail ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 18:38:01 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Except it doesn't because fucking pervs are pervs with or without a reason.
Teh_Slayur ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 19:36:07 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You're right. I find myself correcting people on this a lot, because the consensus in psychology is relatively newly developed: pedophilia is an ingrained condition a small percentage of people are born with. That said, not all child molesters (pervs) are pedophiles, nor are all pedophiles child molesters. Child molesters are represented in all sorts of livelihoods (e.g. sandwich chain spokesperson). The problem with the priesthood is that it has been routinely covered up and enabled by charlatans to save the Church from embarrassment.
Jordoom ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:53:31 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
This is a half-truth. The problem is it both the Catholic Church, other churches, and even secular institutions unfortunately fell under the sway of the opinions of then-experts who asserted that offenders could be successfully rehabilitated and sent accused priests off for treatment, rather than reporting them to police, which resulted in a temporary spike in recidivism.
Now, my purpose here isn't to say, "Hey, they did it, too!" That doesn't help anyone and doesn't help victims. The Church should have been wiser, smarter, more sensitive than everyone else. There is a great deal of repentance and healing that needs to be done, and, yes, a solid degree of shame deserved on the part of Catholics and reparations deserved for the victims.
But this wasn't some thing that the Catholic Church "cooked up" or only the Catholic Church did. Everyone did it. Certainly, the Catholic Church was the largest institution, but it was not the only.
ArTiyme ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 20:27:59 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You say that, but you can't be sure. Plenty of people do fucked up things when they have opportunity and desire, and nothing reinforces desires like years of pretending you don't have any.
PimpMyGloin ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:02:47 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It's a joke.....
EngageInFisticuffs ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 21:03:38 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
A "joke" that a lot of people believe to be true, including the OP based on his title. I enjoy dark offensive humor, just not when it's used to give you plausible deniability.
PimpMyGloin ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 21:16:00 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Bro, look at the subreddit you are on.....
stcwhirled ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 23:24:18 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
For a second, seemed like it was /r/butthurt
BednarsBoner ยท -5 points ยท Posted at 16:50:00 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Before someone defends the mormons by saying they are not a cult. They had suicide pacts in the temple before 1990 where we swore to god to kill ourselves rather than reveal our secret handshakes we stole from free masonry to get into heaven. My secret name is Hyrum. By telling you that i won't be able to be with my family in heaven. We still promise our lives to the church in the temple but we don't mime slitting our throats anymore.
Thewilltosucceed ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 18:48:17 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
Not sure why you're being downvoted, that's all totally accurate.
Edited to add: in this interview, LDS Apostle Jeffry R. Holland first denies then confirms that the penalties were part of the temple ceremony. He says that they weren't enacted if someone revealed the signs and tokens, but rather of they revealed their promise with God.
However, prior to the changes in 1990 the penalties read thusly (emphasis added):
"We, and each of us, covenant and promise that we will not reveal any of the secrets of this, the first token of the Aaronic priesthood, with its accompanying name, sign or penalty. Should we do so; we agree that our throats be cut from ear to ear and or tongues torn out by their roots."
"We and each of us do covenant and promise that we will not reveal the secrets of this, the Second Token of the Aaronic Priesthood, with its accompanying name, sign, grip or penalty. Should we do so,ย we agree to have or breasts cut open and or hearts and vials torn from our bodies and given to the birds of the air and breasts of the field."
"We and each of us do covenant and promise that we will not reveal any of the secrets of this, the First Token of the Melchizedek Priesthood, with its accompanying name, sign or penalty. Should we do so,ย we agree that our bodies be cut asunder in the midst and all our bowls gush out."
Over time, the wording was changed to soften the graphic descriptions. Prior to 1990, they read thusly (emphasis added):
"I, โโ (think of the new name) do covenant and promise that I will never reveal the First Token of the Aaronic Priesthood, together with its accompanying name, sign and penalty. Rather than do soย I would suffer my life to be taken."
"I, โโ (think of the first given name), do covenant and promise that I will never reveal the second token of the Aaronic Priesthood, together with its accompanying name, sign and penalty. Rather than do soย I would suffer my life to be taken."
"I covenant in the name of the Son that I will never reveal the first token of the Melchizedek Priesthood or sign of the nail, with its accompanying name, sign or penalty. Rather than do soย I would suffer my life to be taken."
As you can see, the graphic descriptions were removed, but the end result is the same: don't reveal the signs, tokens, or their names or forfeit your life.
In 1990, after a conducting a survey regarding the temple ceremonies in 1989, the penalties and motions that accompanied then were completely removed so that it read as so:
"I ________, (think of the new name) covenant before God, angels, and these witnesses, that I will never reveal the First Token of the Aaronic Priesthood, with its accompanying name and sign."
"I _________, (think of the first given name) solemnly covenant before God, angels, and these witnesses, that I will never reveal the Second Token of the Aaronic Priesthood, with its accompanying name and sign."
" I solemnly covenant before God, angels, and these witnesses, in the name of the Son that I will never reveal the First Token of the Melchizedek Priesthood or Sign of the Nail, with its accompanying name and sign."
There have been further changes since 1990.
BednarsBoner ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 18:52:37 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Because its unpleasant to read for mormons and most people just don't care. So hiding the truth and not caring about a group that believes in mandated racism and that homosexuality is a sin close to murder becomes the norm, and the group continues to exist.
People might care if they knew how much the church distorts its own history to the members, effectively stealing the lives and money of an otherwise great people. The members are the victims, the church is the abuser.
stuntinoneverybody ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 17:01:16 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
obvious downvote by a clueless mormon who still believes. when i left i posed this same question to my hardcore believer father, basically asking him 'how can the endowment be straight revelation from god, and yet the church continues to amend and change it as they see fit?' wont the angels up there be like, woah you got the wrong version you cant come in. god is the same yesterday today and forever blah blah blah but he was wrong about that first draft.
BednarsBoner ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 18:58:04 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You mean its troubling to find out that President Young taught in the temple that God is literally adam only for it to be declared as blasphemy in General conference years later? Yesterday's prophet is today's apostate.
Or how the priesthood didn't exist in the church until 1834 and was backdated to 1829 in Doctrine and Covenants but is missing from the original book of commandments? Or how the angles were at first unnamed and then later embellished?
Or how there is no record prior to 1832 by ANYONE inside or outside of the church in smiths town or family or even by himself regarding the first vision which is claimed to take place in 1820? Or how there are multiple accounts of the first vision but we only teach the 1838 version?
Yeah it falls apart rather quickly. I'm glad you got out.
Cl0s3tStoner ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 19:51:09 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
deleted What is this?
BednarsBoner ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:53:18 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
50 Problems With The Mormon Church
Brother Jake Explains: Mormonism is Not a Cult
[deleted] ยท -11 points ยท Posted at 18:30:45 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
Cl0s3tStoner ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 19:52:28 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
deleted What is this?
M00glemuffins ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 20:36:11 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Says the blindly following believer who questions nothing.
Sylvester_Scott ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 19:47:58 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Mormonism: You're soaking in it.
ghotiaroma ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:00:19 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Cracking up the 50 and older crowd :)
Sylvester_Scott ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:02:14 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
The mormon younglings don't "soak?"
ghotiaroma ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 07:40:13 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I assume you were referencing the Palmolive commercials where the catch phrase made it big.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzmTtusvjR4
Sylvester_Scott ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 17:11:22 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I knew what you meant, but this is a totally different thing.
[deleted] ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 21:57:06 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I think they call it "floating" for some reason.
Sylvester_Scott ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:18:53 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Maybe the next generation will call it, "dipping."
Peluchenuts ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:03:00 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
http://i.imgur.com/Ww2YOYg.gif
Lolomelon ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 21:26:27 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Abstinence makes the wand grow harder.
allysakaitlyn ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 21:33:52 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
The clouds reflected in the window looks like a bra/boobs. Coincidence? I think not.
altie29 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 21:46:29 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
http://youtu.be/84u5k4bboU4
unclefishbits ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:46:20 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Provo, Spain? Mr. Stanwyk's parents Marvin and Velma of Provo, were unable to attend the wedding. Those are three names I enjoy; Marvin, Velma, and Provo.
mattboise1227 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:42:52 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
With fondlers like these, who needs sanctuaries?
gorguts87 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:47:53 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Ball Fondlers
_IndianaGroans ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 00:17:17 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Are there actually almost 5000 people who haven't heard this saying before or still find it funny?
I first heard this over 20 years ago... and hundreds of times since...
elbitjusticiero ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 00:18:01 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
There's a penis in the red paint of the car and it looks like a pair of testicles smashed against the glass.
Subliminal fondling I guess.
Prison_Vape ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 01:07:15 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Where in Provo?
BudgetBinLaden ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 04:11:07 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I know it's not for everyone, but I personally don't mind a full bush.
KuolemaaOdotellessa ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 04:20:42 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Me_irl
infractus96 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 04:33:16 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
dam bro do u vape
molodyets ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 05:29:35 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Where was this? I don't recognize that building in the background?
Catheo-ShatteredHand ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 09:27:34 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I think this should be posted in /r/Ireland :P
cantgetoutnow ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:17:51 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Haha, yeah...stop fooling yourself. Abstinence is a really stupid and naive idea.
Faps_McTickle ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 19:45:28 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
The amount of religious people blindly fighting the upvotes are why I am an antitheist. It's a funny joke, you caustic ignoramuses.
Edit: and they have Reddit accounts too. YouTube as well, no doubt.
Jaytaxman ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 20:47:47 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I hate to break it to you, but by commenting you're now fighting for upvotes like those other idiots. You don't have to be religious to be a damn hypocrite.
Faps_McTickle ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 20:53:07 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Reread my post. It wasn't a complaint about people fighting for upvotes, it was about brigading funny posts.
FuckingShitty_Reddit ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 21:31:10 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You hate religious people because you're worried about someone else's internet points? Sad.
Faps_McTickle ยท -3 points ยท Posted at 21:33:51 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
An obtuse observation.
FuckingShitty_Reddit ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 21:40:13 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
/r/cringe.
/r/justneckbeardthings.
/r/iamverysmart.
Faps_McTickle ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 22:00:20 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
This is why you have no friends.
FuckingShitty_Reddit ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 22:34:43 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
No. I don't have any friends because the entire town knows I'm on the sex offender registry.
Faps_McTickle ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:38:51 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
touche
[deleted] ยท -8 points ยท Posted at 19:54:19 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
[deleted]
[deleted] ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 20:38:36 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Faps_McTickle ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 20:04:17 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
So close.
Edit: their autocorrect
Jordoom ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 23:56:43 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You find the sexual abuse of children to be funny?
BednarsBoner ยท -8 points ยท Posted at 16:51:43 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
50 Problems With The Mormon Church
http://cesletter.com/Letter-to-a-CES-Director.pdf
For the mormons who feel that the church is honest with them. I challenge that.
Down voting won't make the church true. But you keep going ahead.
dugernaut ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 21:21:57 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
What are you mad at? Did a pretty mormon girl break your heart?
BednarsBoner ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 21:55:14 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
No my wife and i are both happily out of the church.
Thehealeroftri ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 22:24:00 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You don't sound happy. You sound bitter and vengeful.
BednarsBoner ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 22:29:36 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
Finding out that i was in a cult was kind of a bummer. Bear in mind i mean in the cult in the sense;
http://www.lifeaftermormonism.net/group/researchingmormonism/page/mormon-temple
http://cultdefinition.com
dugernaut ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:13:36 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
You don't sound happy.
BednarsBoner ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 22:23:09 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Well not really about finding out we were both in a cult, no. But in terms of our marriage its never been better! I love my wife and she loves me and surprise, we left the church. Bam
But yeah leaving the church sucks. Its hard to stand up for investigative and critical thinking, its harder when the church itself admits the book of abraham to be a non literal translation. Its hard to not wonder what the CES letter says when the prophets start getting controlling about researching on the internet. When the church starts to admit for itself the things i thought were once anti are true, its hard not to wonder. Read the essays on Lds.org.
You can find them here. https://www.lds.org/topics/essays?lang=eng
Thats lds.org. Its not some anti mormon trick. Its the church. Go ask your bishop or stake president if you don't believe me. Read these essays carefully as bednar advised the CES. The church admits what i thought was anti but apparently is the truth. How much more is out there waiting to have essays written about?
http://cesletter.com/Letter-to-a-CES-Director.pdf
Thehealeroftri ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 22:28:07 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
When I left the church I wanted to tell all of my mormon friends and family about the stuff I had discovered. I wanted to tell the internet and preach against mormonism just like you're doing.
It just made me an angry and bitter person. I cut it out of my life completely and don't care about it and life is so much less stressful and more peaceful.
BednarsBoner ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:45:57 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
I'm still living in Utah and i have it affect me and those around me. So i'm against its dishonesty. Thats it. you can believe in all of it, i find it beautiful. Just be honest. (edit the honest bits aren't so beautiful...)
Maggie_Smiths_Anus ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 18:44:17 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
So brave
[deleted] ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 19:41:53 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
BednarsBoner ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 19:44:24 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
How do you feel knowing that black people were less valiant in heaven and that they have less potential than whites?
Sounds real christ like right?
carc ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 19:58:54 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Musings and speculation from misguided leaders from many years ago, especially when not speaking for the church, are not official doctrine. Everyone knows it but you. You say it as if it's preached at the pulpit. It is not.
BednarsBoner ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 20:03:18 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
2 Nephi 5: 21
'And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people, the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.'
Alma 3: 6
'And the skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a curse upon them because of their transgression and their rebellion against their brethren, who consisted of Nephi, Jacob and Joseph, and Sam, who were just and holy men.'
2 Nephi 30: 6
"...their scales of darkness shall begin to fall from their eyes; and many generations shall not pass away among them, save they shall be a white and a delightsome people."
NOTE: THE TERM 'WHITE' WAS CHANGED TO 'PURE' IN 1981.
3 Nephi 2:15
"And their curse was taken from them, and their skin became white like unto the Nephites."
Jacob 3: 5, 8-9
5 Behold, the Lamanites your brethren, whom ye hate because of their filthiness and the cursing which hath come upon their skins, are more righteous than you; for they have not forgotten the commandment of the Lord, which was given unto our fatherโthat they should have save it were one wife, and concubines they should have none, and there should not be whoredoms committed among them.
8 O my brethren, I fear that unless ye shall repent of your sins that their skins will be whiter than yours, when ye shall be brought with them before the throne of God.
9 Wherefore, a commandment I give unto you, which is the word of God, that ye revile no more against them because of the darkness of their skins; neither shall ye revile against them because of their filthiness; but ye shall remember your own filthiness, and remember that their filthiness came because of their fathers.
1 Nephi 12:23
23 And it came to pass that I beheld, after they had dwindled in unbelief they became a dark, and loathsome, and a filthy people, full of idleness and all manner of abominations.
1 Nephi 13:15
15 And I beheld the Spirit of the Lord, that it was upon the Gentiles, and they did prosper and obtain the land for their inheritance; and I beheld that they were white, and exceedingly fair and beautiful, like unto my people before they were slain.
Mormon 5:15
15 And also that the seed of this people may more fully believe his gospel, which shall go forth unto them from the Gentiles; for this people shall be scattered, and shall become a dark, a filthy, and a loathsome people, beyond the description of that which ever hath been amongst us, yea, even that which hath been among the Lamanites, and this because of their unbelief and idolatry.
Moses 7:8
8 For behold, the Lord shall curse the land with much heat, and the barrenness thereof shall go forth forever; and there was a blackness came upon all the children of Canaan, that they were despised among all people.
Moses 7:22
And Enoch also beheld the residue of the people which were the sons of Adam; and they were a mixture of all the seed of Adam save it was the seed of Cain, for the seed of Cain were black, and had not place among them.
Abraham 1:21-24,27
Now this king of Egypt was a descendant from the loins of Ham, and was a partaker of the blood of the Canaanites by birth. From this descent sprang all the Egyptians, and thus the blood of the Canaanites was preserved in the land. The land of Egypt being first discovered by a woman, who was the daughter of Ham, and the daughter of Egyptus, which in the Chaldean signifies Egypt, which signifies that which is forbidden; When this woman discovered the land it was under water, who afterward settled her sons in it; and thus, from Ham, sprang that race which preserved the curse in the land. Now, Pharaoh being of that lineage by which he could not have the right of Priesthood, notwithstanding the Pharaohs would fain claim it from Noah, through Ham, therefore my father was led away by their idolatry;
Thehealeroftri ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:25:33 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Ironically enough it seems like Exmormons study the Book of Mormon exponentially more than Mormons do.
You're not "Happily Out" if Mormonism encompasses all of your thoughts and actions still. Just cut it out of your life completely and ignore it.
BednarsBoner ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 22:28:11 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I wish it was that easy.
Thehealeroftri ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 22:29:46 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Your life will be so much easier and less stressful. I promise. I know I'm just some random shmuck on Reddit, but giving up on trying to inform others about mormonism made my life much less stressful and it made my mood lighten immensely over time.
BednarsBoner ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 22:48:17 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
We all take turns against anti intellectualism at some point. Its bigger than just mormonism.
Put your shoulder to the wheel; push along,
Do your duty with a heart full of song,
We all have work; let no one shirk.
Put your shoulder to the wheel.
Thewilltosucceed ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 21:56:58 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
"Musings and speculation"
Really? That was doctrine. Check out the August 17, 1949 First Presidency message, or the December 15, 1969 First President statement.
Or the various verses in the book of Mormon that show it.
Internet_Wanderer ยท -2 points ยท Posted at 16:54:38 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Neeeeeeeeeed this sticker!!!!
LegendaryWarriorPoet ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 21:14:28 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Lmao if abstinence caused molestation most of Reddit would be even more like Jared fogel
SublimeMachine ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 00:59:56 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
The vast majority of people want to be openly in a sexual relationship with someone at some point in their lives, whether that means getting married or just having a partner or whatever. In doing so, they have disqualified themselves from becoming a priest because priests are required to abstain.
Therefore, these people are eliminated from the pool of potential priests, leaving only people who are fine with never openly being in a sexual relationship with another person. This increases the percentage of pedophiles in the pool of potential priests.
LegendaryWarriorPoet ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 04:08:43 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Eh if I'm not mistaken the percentage of pedophile priests roughly tracks with the general population, it's just that it's even worse because (1) they're in a position of authority, (2) there were instances of coverups. I get what you're saying, but I think it's one of those things that make sense in theory but doesn't actually play out in practice
SublimeMachine ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 04:29:29 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Fair enough. I believe the theory stated probably accounts for some increased percentage, but there are obviously a lot of other factors so it certainly isn't cut and dry. They probably don't let obvious weirdos become priests regardless... It's definitely hard to get good data for statistics on this. You are definitely right that there are other factors which make it more scandalous.
chambertlo ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:51:36 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
HAHAHAHA.
It's so funny that The Catholic church in the past declared homosexuality as "unnatural", but the only thing that is unnatural is abstinence. I do not trust anyone who willingly gives up sex, least of all priests.
thrashmo92 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:25:08 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
TIL what succinct means.
Succinct - adj:briefly and clearly expressed
frank89909 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:42:20 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
So - they're anti-church, or anti-abstinence, or what?
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 21:54:16 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Car vandalized in 3...2...1...
ywie ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:24:48 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
No worse abomination than a liberal Christian.
brheas ยท -2 points ยท Posted at 16:51:44 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Must be Warren Jeffs' van.
[deleted] ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 19:43:46 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
SirawesomesauceIII ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 19:53:18 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I have literally never heard of Provo before this post. Why is it so bad. Everyone keeps saying it's the people, but what about them?
[deleted] ยท 10 points ยท Posted at 20:09:24 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
ArTiyme ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 20:39:00 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Except for the people above who have lived there and say that crazy Mormons make the place terrible to live in. And for some reason, you, as a mormon, don't see that. Seems like we're putting the pieces together.
Skoull ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:09:26 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Really everyone acts like Provo is full of militant Mormons preaching on the streets. Yeah there's a higher Mormon population there but Jesus it's not like 99% of them care what you're doing or what you believe in.
MaximusLupis ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:36:40 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
It's always been a Reddit circle jerk to act like Mormons are a huge group of creepy degenerates from Utah... But other religious groups... Ahh whatever... Let's make fun of the minority! It's okay because they're white!
fastal_12147 ยท -5 points ยท Posted at 16:53:54 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
surprised they didn't scratch their windows with that edge
coifox ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 20:05:56 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
That seems so fucking true, after the movie Spotlight, my wife is on an awareness trip about this on everyone who will listen.
Good cause I guess, and it distracts her from her recovery of her leukaemia. So that's nice, I guess.
[deleted] ยท -14 points ยท Posted at 16:38:00 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)*
[deleted]
[deleted] ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 18:10:30 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 18:19:05 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
pansconne92 ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 20:35:17 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Funny picture, thread is cancer.
sleauxbreaux42 ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 22:10:17 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Wait... I live in Provo. Is Provo well known enough that people know which state it's in without SAYING which state it's in? This surprises me a lot, actually.
[deleted] ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 19:35:43 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Can confirm.
Source: Was raised Mormon, and I and many of my male friends are massive pervs.
BednarsBoner ยท -4 points ยท Posted at 20:23:58 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
50 Problems With The Mormon Church
Brother Jake Explains: Mormonism is Not a Cult
CES Letter
Political_Analyst ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 22:04:04 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I thought it said "Absence Makes the Heart Grow Fonder". I thought wrong.
charina91 ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 00:58:57 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
So damn true. Bishops interviewing young girls for worthiness to go to the temple, asking explicit sexual questions. Happened to me.
theBergmeister ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 01:06:04 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
In the absence of a healthy prayer and devotional life, this holds true.
sunommy ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 01:35:13 on March 21, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
That is perfect! Where can I get one?
uss_intega ยท -4 points ยท Posted at 18:29:06 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I just spit my drink all over my phone, well done
Eddie_Hitler ยท -2 points ยท Posted at 22:06:36 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
I think you're having a laugh if you honestly think all these Catholic clergy are truly celibate 100% of the time. There are nuns and housekeepers to be banged.
Notice how Protestant clergy are allowed to marry and have their own families, hence they don't end up fondling anything with a pulse because their urges are healthily fulfilled.
beardyzve ยท -6 points ยท Posted at 18:29:48 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
TIL what succinct means.
Succinct - adj:briefly and clearly expressed
robot_turtle ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 18:52:48 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
OP has the best words
pooperdooper ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 21:23:17 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
:(
[deleted] ยท -2 points ยท Posted at 22:56:28 on March 20, 2016 ยท (Permalink)
Ooooh, cuz of the religion thing. I mean, that's not how that works, but I get it.