Oaks: “The time-honored principles of relying on and trusting the Lord and His servants are questioned by some.”
actually means: "Stop thinking critically about stuff, just do what the ignorant people in the past have done and simply trust us. Why are you making it so hard for us to control you these days?"
I left organized christianity and struck out on my own. I consider my present self to be much more christian than past self. I am far more at ease now. I am far more empathetic to suffering. The New Testament is the only base text I need. I don't need a community to prop me up. When you are part of a flock you are a sheep.
This drives me fucking insane. Every chance they get they bind themselves to god like they're inseparable. Any time they say "the Lord and his servants," all I hear is "church leaders" with a gun held to the head of all post-Mormon religious belief.
I know. When I try to talk to my spouse about any of my concerns it always turns into a conversation about following God and Jesus and not the leaders so they choose to focus on that.
There I am looking confused because I have said nothing about our father. My beef is with the institution, not the idea of Jesus! I can get behind most of what that guy was all about. It's all the extra stuff that's tacked on by the leadership that I have a problem with. But in their mind the two things seem inseparable to the point that if one is questioned then they can shift focus to the other.
And that's where the problem lies, to Mormons believe God and the prophet/apostles are the same. Because God would never let a prophet or apostle lead the Mormon church astray. God speaks through the prophet, therefore they are the same. That is why once you start questioning the prophet, tbms assume you also question God. By questioning God, you don't have the right to have an opinion on the mormon church anymore.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 05:31:13 on February 6, 2019 · (Permalink)
There I am looking confused because I have said nothing about our father.
How dare you use your further light and knowledge to make decisions for your own life. We and ancient scribes know much better what you should do with your life.
mushbo · 20 points · Posted at 16:21:43 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
Why are you making it so hard for us to control you these days?"
Right. Oaks wants to have his cake and eat it too.
We speak for God, so trust us, dammit.
And also
Stop believing that we're perfect and can't make mistakes! Sometimes we speak as men of our time, and by that, I mean sometimes the dead leaders spoke as men of their time, but me, right now, I'm definitely speaking for God.
The church can't even follow that advice! Why not double down on Lamanites, a young Earth, Masonic ordinances as corruptions of the "real" ones and "civil rights as Communist plot derp" when the world takes those things to task instead of abandoning their leaders' teachings?
“When you are asked a difficult question, such as a puzzler about Church history, be honest and, if necessary, say you don't know. But then be sure to say what you do know: ‘I know that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God’."
When my kids ask me something I'm unsure about the first thing I do is say, "Hey. I don't know. Let's look that up." I don't profess my feelings about an unrelated topic.
That statement also stood out to me as particularly idiotic. "If someone challenges your brainwashing with historical facts, just deflect and regurgitate the programming."
Also it isn't "honest" to say you don't know if you do know and the truth just isn't flattering to the church. As if anything bad for Mormonism is just "unknowable."
It's not wise of them to push the Smith thing. When I started thinking that maybe the church "wasn't accurate" (couldn't allow myself to think it was "untrue" at that time, yet) Smith was one thing I was more than happy to toss aside as long as the modern prophets were doing better.
Heck, even as a kid it annoyed me how often people talked about Smith and basically ignored every prophet since. Technically they were just as important, right? But you only ever heard about one.
With as often as they speak about Church history causing people to lose their faith... they must be seeing some extremely ugly statistics in their Thursday meetings. It’s literally all-hands-on-deck for the Q-15 to try to stem the tide of disaffected members.
I’m enjoying the show from my new found vantage point... burn baby burn!
[deleted] · 25 points · Posted at 15:16:18 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
That's my guess too. From $32B in liquid stock assets to untold billions in real estate speculation, the Q15 are gearing up for the end times (the end of the profitable church). They're in full cost-cutting mode. No more pageants nor scouting, conscripted janitors, a two-hour block to maximize existing buildings, reorganizing stakes and carving stake offices out of existing ward buildings, and calling senior missionaries to work at church-owned businesses. The only things they never balk at is the bills they so willingly cough up to Kirton McKonkie.
The bind they find themselves in now is their ridiculous spending on temples. That extravagance is unsupportable. A real sign-o-the-times will be when they shutter an underutilized temple.
Right?! I think if I was TBM and heard all of this talk about church history, I'd want to know more. Not stay away from it. I honestly didn't know there was any controversy around church history until I went down the rabbit hole. In fact, I was once talking to a TBM about the controversy around Joseph Smith and she said, "what controversy?!" This was years ago and I think every TBM must know that there IS controversy but maybe not know WHAT that controversy is...
I would instantly get online and research for what I shouldn't be researching for. I don't like it when people tell me they're hididng something from me, and I should just ignore it.
[deleted] · 17 points · Posted at 15:33:46 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
The real challenge with those meetings (not that dealing with disaffected members isn't hard) is that they require at least one of them to be off-site and telepresence in. They do this for security reasons as if they don't trust god to protect their pharisee asses.
So the real challenge of these meetings is some old guy fumbling around to get his face to show up on screen and the audio to work. It usually takes at least 20 minutes. It doesn't help that they change up this role so nobody does this more than once a year.
I love how he is clearly training parents to gaslight THEIR OWN CHILDREN. The fuck is that?
"When asked a difficult question, such as a puzzler about church history... say you don't know. But then be sure to say what you do know: 'I know that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God'."
Everyday these so called 'apostles of God' show me that this isn't about religion but making money and hiding the truth from millions.
It's remarkable how he can say this stuff with a straight face.
"Hey Dad, I just learned that Joseph married a 14 year-old, lied about practicing polygamy, and was a treasure digger con-artist. What's up with that? Oh, and he falsely claimed to translate the hoax Kinderhook plates, and the Book of Abraham."
"I don't know, son. But here's what I do know - Joseph was a prophet of God. I know this because it feels right."
You know, every time I read something about Oaks, I kind of roll my eyes and say to myself this is just to be expected from him. He's an old, mean, stodgy man. But then I remember -- this one's a SMART, EXPERIENCED man, not some fumbling bumpkin. When he says "research is not the answer," he knows exactly what he's doing. He KNOWS that smart people DO RESEARCH on most of the important things in their lives -- that's just what responsible adults do. May I just postulate that President Oaks doesn't want responsible, smart, intelligent people to be in the church -- he wants grunts.
Oaks himself has talked about "revelation" as leaders making decisions and those being the Lord's decisions because they're called by him. These people are invested. They have their ways of rationalizing, same as literally every member who has given a blessing or retconned a warm fuzzy as an unmistakable message from God to inspire lifelong commitment.
Research is absolutely the answer. Oaks, in so many words, is admonishing these adults to double down, embrace their ignorance, and forget the question.
[deleted] · 28 points · Posted at 14:17:45 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
“When you are asked a difficult question, such as a puzzler about Church history, be honest and, if necessary, say you don't know. But then be sure to say what you do know: ‘I know that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God’."
The old fall back on testimony strategy...this is why discussing church history with my TBM family feels like repeatedly hanging my head into the wall.
EXACTLY. I finally had to get down to that when talking to my TBM family. I don't just have some issues with policies or some uncomfortable parts of church history. I literally don't believe JS was a prophet. At all.
Hey when you get looking into warped histories of second or third hand accounts, of course you’ll find some concerning stuff that may or may not be true, just remember that Joseph Smith was a prophet and don’t worry about it!
That’s the typical answer I get when I explain where I’m coming from when it comes to church history. TBMs don’t understand or don’t want to understand that it’s the foundational stuff.
It's just not worth talking about the church with TBMs. They always fall back on their feelings and personal experiences. I used to say that there's nothing I could learn about Joseph Smith that would change how I view him about a prophet..... Hahahahaha 🤣
All the really culty stuff has been covered, so I wanted to point out this quote:
“For example, the voices of young mothers who had great difficulty managing children during a 3-hour block of meetings on Sunday was an important consideration in reducing our worship meetings to two hours and Primary’s duration commensurately.”
This is such a load of crap. The new changes aren't helping young mothers. The difficult part of church has always been Sacrament meeting. Making Primary shorter doesn't help mothers unless they themselves are in Primary. For many stay-at-home moms (and stay-at-home dads, too), Primary is the only time they get away from their kids all week. And, now, in exchange for this shorter block, these young moms are saddled with the extra work and guilt associated with attempting to corral their squirrelly kids at home and trying to have meaningful gospel study.
Women whose husbands are in the bishopric will still be wrangling their children throughout sacrament meeting while their husbands look on comfortably from the rostrum.
It’s like that one quote: “ If we have the truth, it ought not to be investigated. If we have not the truth... same thing.”
Javelou · 19 points · Posted at 15:16:40 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
“We are taught to love our neighbors, but it is not easy to love and live with those who have different standards and sometimes challenge us and our standards in a persuasive or even threatening way,” he said.
Right?? Speak for yourself, Oaks. It’s not hard to love others who are different from us. It’s really not.
JComX5 · 2 points · Posted at 19:41:58 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
It's like he's talking about THE CHURCH the ones who actually have different standards and challenge ours not just in a threatening way, but in a legal way.
When you are asked a difficult question, such as a puzzler about Church history, be honest and, if necessary, say you don't know. But then be sure to say what you do know: ‘I know that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God’.
Yeah, teach your kids to not be inquisitive and thought stopping techniques.
There are all kinds of applications for this mode of thought.
"If you ever find yourself doubting the moon landing, be honest and, if necessary, say you don't know. But then be sure to say what you do know: I know the earth is flat."
Each time they bring this up, I'm reminded of the age-old, universal principle:
If someone is actively and aggressively discouraging you from seeking truth, that person is not your friend. Your ignorance gives them leverage, and leverage is not necessary in a healthy, honest relationship.
“Conversion to the Lord precedes conversion to the Church. And conversion to the Lord comes through prayer and study and service, furthered by loving patience on the part of spouse and other concerned family members.”
Ok, so not a popular thing here but my husband and I still believe in God and Jesus. Our conversion to the Lord is what led us out of the church. We realized that the Lord wouldn’t exclude children from receiving baptism because their parents are homosexual. The Lord doesn’t care if a man has a beard. That shouldn’t prevent somebody from serving the Lord. The Lord isn’t going to say it is okay for church leaders to lie to members of his church about anything. The Lord doesn’t care if I wear pants to church. The Lord doesn’t care if I take the sacrament with my left hand. So I have to say, my conversion to the Lord prevented me from continuing my conversion to the Mormon church.
attended a stake conference once, where jesus was mentioned in 1 talk in 2 hrs. literally! that was nail in the coffin for me.
people converted to the lord don't play mental gymnastics with historicity shit and doctrinal arguments all the time.
the quest for perfect understanding is the booby prize, but it sure is fun to litigate against these blowhards I suppose.
funny thing is that oaks (mr. legal researcher) spent his entire life researching - so he is advocating to do the exact opposite of how he spent his entire life.
as a "seer" he sure didn't see very well 30-40 yrs ago.
and a special witness of jesus christ - he sure doesn't witness very much.
Interestingly enough John, I was just doing some "research" and happened to be reading this summary of a similar visit Jeff Holland had with young, married couples. Complete with cheesy scripted questions from the audience, anecdotes that don't reflect reality, and "advice" on how to handle doubts. This is seriously their strategy??!?
He's probably the next President of the Corporation.
[deleted] · 5 points · Posted at 15:56:25 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
The information age will kill organized religion once the indoctrinated die off.
The truth will set us free.
[deleted] · 6 points · Posted at 17:46:53 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
Ugh. This article makes it really difficult for me to not be angry with my parents for their continued support of the church.
My parents know full well that Mormon teachings about gay people emotionally and mentally destroyed me for years and pushed me to the brink of suicide at a very young age. They know that a lot of LGBTQ+ people actually have died over those teachings. They know that people still go through this every time one of these assholes gets up at conference and goes on another tirade against LGBTQ+ people. I have confronted them about these things and they have admitted to knowing about them and have even admitted to dreading the GC talks on LGBTQ+ issues. I get frustrated but I know they are deeply indoctrinated and I try to be as understanding as possible.
But then something like this comes along and it’s just like, what the actual fuck?! This isn’t a simple thought terminating cliche. This is one of their highest leaders outright telling them not to research their own church that they donate massive amounts of time and money to. This is their leaders explicitly telling them not to search for truth. I don’t know how to be understanding of outright choosing to remain willfully ignorant while they know people are suffering at the hands of TSCC.
The photos of the audience looked like they could've been taken in Utah County (lots of white people). I'd guess that many of these young couples are from the Morridor and in Chicago for grad school or for a first job out of college and they'll jump at their first chance to move back to the comforts of a community that looks and thinks like them and doesn't challenge their beliefs. So basically he was speaking to people more like himself, "Hang in there, there's a McMansion waiting for you in Draper when you're done with dental school."
RaCaRWE · 3 points · Posted at 15:29:03 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
"When you are asked a difficult question, such as a puzzler about Church history, be honest and, if necessary, say you don't know. But then be sure to say what you do know: ‘I know that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God"
“For example, the voices of young mothers who had great difficulty managing children during a 3-hour block of meetings on Sunday was an important consideration in reducing our worship meetings to two hours and Primary’s duration commensurately.”
🙄
Edit: It gets worse.
The General Authorities, he added, value “the experience and voice and wisdom” of the sister leaders, particularly the General Officers of the auxiliary presidencies.
“These sisters were consulted frequently on the important developments announced during the last year, and their advice was embodied in all of them.”
This is going to backfire on them big time. People tend to do exactly the opposite of what they're told to do when presented like this. Curious people at least.
“We are taught to love our neighbors, but it is not easy to love and live with those who have different standards and sometimes challenge us and our standards in a persuasive or even threatening way,” he said.
Umm, not that hard to love and live with people who aren't my clones. And those neighbors are right about you-know-what.
Also interesting how he throws young mothers under the bus as the reason why church was suddenly changed to two hours, after 100+ years. Cuz the moms were having a hard time with their kids!
I usually don't get mad about dumb shit these old fogeys say, but this one got me. The fact that your average TBM could read this and say, "yeah there's nothing wrong with this," shows how brainwashed and conditioned the so-called "Church" has people. Amazing the long-reaching effect Joe Smith and other false prophets continue to have on so many people. Fuck "the Church."
I suggest that research IS the answer, as long as they are doing it together. But then again, I'm not trying to hold on to these young adults by every means possible either, so......
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 18:05:52 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
Can we just have like one day....ONE...DAY... where the church doesn't say or do something that makes me throw up in my mouth a little?
WOW! I'm too lazy to look it up, but I can remember a teaching where people can know if a prophet or apostle is speaking the truth when it aligns with the standard works. Where in the scriptures has it ever said to stick your head in the sand and not search for truth?
"You did not study it out in your mind.."
"Seek and ye shall find.."
"If any of you lack wisdom.."
"Impossible to be saved in ignorance.."
This isn't just false doctrine, it's false doctrine even according to Mormon doctrine. The part that cracks me up the most though is the next paragraph where he mentions studying is important. Maybe I was taught wrong, but I always thought study and research went hand-in-hand.
Couldn't help but notice that Oaks is gesturing with his left hand in all 3 photos in the article. Maybe that's a symbol he's speaking as a man, and he gestures with his right hand when speaking as an apostle?
Additionally, many members — “and you are surely among them” — live in areas where they are a small minority. Each day they associate, and are sometimes governed by, persons who have “radically different” beliefs and standards.
DEMOCRATS! I can’t believe TBM’s have to live under them!
yauguts · 1 points · Posted at 15:40:19 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
That's what I was thinking. Research is not the answer, but if you insist on researching, then the Gospel Topics Essays are the only research you need to do. The problem with that strategy is that there is enough "truth" in those essays to make shelves come crashing down. That's what the priesthood ban essay did to me. It was the ultimate mind f#ck. Wait a minute, I though the prophets were infallible and could never lead us astray? And now they were just racist men not speaking for God on that issue. Well if prophets could be wrong about something so important all the way long past the Civil Rights movement, then what else could they be wrong about? For me, it meant that it was time to find out for myself... and down the rabbit hole I went.
The essays are more than enough for most to leave the church. If someone goes into them with their hardhat and safety vest they may be safe, but any member who unexpectantly stumbles into them is going to be in real trouble.
That's why I'm pleasantly shocked they linked the articles. My only thought is that Oaks, or whoever reviewed this article, is so ignorant to believe that nothing can lead a member astray and/or believes the gospel essays actually provide soundproof arguments, decided to site them in the naïve hopes that they'll actually settle a member's faith crisis.
This same talk was posted in /LatterDaySaints and everyone agrees that faith and not studying is the answer. It makes me sick that these guys can go up and blatantly try to cover up the issues and there are still people following it blind
This is like when the Catholic Church used to say only priests were allowed to read the Bible. How about he tell all the people over there at FAIR that research is not the answer.
A different analogy: A company hides the fact that they've lied to the IRS, Lied to their employees, lied to their customers and obfuscated their history. They tell Wall Street, Investors, employees and customers to please ignore their fraud, deception and illegal business practices because they have great corporate messaging and branding, they also contribute around 2% of total income to charity and do some good things which are highly publicized in press they own.
I have not read the church news in a VERY long time, but reading this is like a Xinhua news propaganda piece with Xi Dada visits an orphanage or something like that -- " As subzero temperatures in the region have snagged headlines over the past several days, for local Latter-day Saints the joy of hosting a member of the First Presidency was perhaps augmented on Saturday by warmer temperatures, which made the early February conditions feel almost pleasant."
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 21:15:14 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
Once again, proof positive that they all know it is crap. If they believed all of it they would be happy for people to research it, because in the end, it will ultimately withstand scrutiny. Problem is, it does not withstand scrutiny. It’s horseshit made up by a sexual predator and con man.
Coming from the same guy who said "it's wrong to criticize church leaders, even if the criticisms are true", why am I not surprised. Worst part is that people actually fall for that bullshit.
I just want to point out that Oaks is NOT saying to not do any research - he's saying that research is not the answer to a marriage between two people who have different values. Which I would tend to agree with. I mean yeah, Oaks, whatever, the guy's got his issues, but it doesn't serve us or our community to mischaracterize what he says because then it's easier to trash him.
I think you are the one who's mischaracterizing him actually. He wasn't referring to fixing random marital issues, he was referring to fixing your spouse's testimony specifically after they've learned some troubling facts about the church. In which case research, if the church was actually true and honest, would in fact be the correct thing to do to resolve those issues. If your spouse's belief that the earth is flat or that you shouldn't vaccinate your children is causing some strain on you and your relationship how could you argue that researching those subjects together isn't the correct course of action?
He acknowledged that some Latter-Saint couples face conflicts over important values and priorities. Matters of Church history and doctrinal issues have led some spouses to inactivity. Some spouses wonder how to best go about researching and responding to such issues.
“I suggest that research is not the answer,” he said.
Yeahhh your interpretation only works if you remove the context of the rest of the paragraph between that line and Oaks' response. He is talking about couples who are in conflict specifically due to matters of Church History and doctrinal issues. He's telling people not to research any issues that are contributing to their spouse's faith crisis. He's literally telling people to be willfully ignorant to things that are causing their spouse's mental/spiritual/emotional distress.
I don't know how anyone could interpret it otherwise.
I'm assuming that when you say you agree with the sentiment, you mean you don't think research is the ultimate fix. Which, I mean, no one would disagree with that. In fact I don't think anyone was ever thinking "research will save my marriage." But how would research hurt the effort? Doesn't attempting to understand your spouse's perspective help even a little in finding common ground?
Oaks isn't trying to temper expectations, he's literally trying to discourage research, and it is absolutely not the first time he's done so.
Saved comment
Sansabina · 209 points · Posted at 13:13:57 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)*
actually means: "Stop thinking critically about stuff, just do what the ignorant people in the past have done and simply trust us. Why are you making it so hard for us to control you these days?"
heywhatareyoudoing · 148 points · Posted at 15:29:10 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
No one's questioning the Lord - we're questioning YOU and your organization, old man. Stop equating yourself with the Lord.
victory4satan · 68 points · Posted at 15:54:58 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
This!!!!!! 🙌 I never questioned "the Lord." I questioned a freaking organization started by a con man!!!
WhichWayzUp · 10 points · Posted at 00:06:25 on February 6, 2019 · (Permalink)
Yeah but also I've got to admit that trying multiple times a day to have a conversation with Jesus turned out to be invariably one-sided.
curioboxfullofdicks · 5 points · Posted at 02:17:20 on February 6, 2019 · (Permalink)
I left organized christianity and struck out on my own. I consider my present self to be much more christian than past self. I am far more at ease now. I am far more empathetic to suffering. The New Testament is the only base text I need. I don't need a community to prop me up. When you are part of a flock you are a sheep.
butt_thumper · 31 points · Posted at 18:18:28 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
This drives me fucking insane. Every chance they get they bind themselves to god like they're inseparable. Any time they say "the Lord and his servants," all I hear is "church leaders" with a gun held to the head of all post-Mormon religious belief.
SkittleSandwich · 22 points · Posted at 18:27:18 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
I know. When I try to talk to my spouse about any of my concerns it always turns into a conversation about following God and Jesus and not the leaders so they choose to focus on that.
There I am looking confused because I have said nothing about our father. My beef is with the institution, not the idea of Jesus! I can get behind most of what that guy was all about. It's all the extra stuff that's tacked on by the leadership that I have a problem with. But in their mind the two things seem inseparable to the point that if one is questioned then they can shift focus to the other.
Ferelwing · 10 points · Posted at 18:47:55 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
3 card monty scheme. "Follow the Queen" but they've already palmed it.
FHL88Work · 10 points · Posted at 19:17:44 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
"whether from my own mouth or the mouth of my servants, it is the same. "
Thanks Joseph, for giving yourself and all those who came after you this (usurped) authority.
=P
dwindlers · 3 points · Posted at 06:11:24 on February 6, 2019 · (Permalink)
> "whether from my own mouth or the mouth of my servants, it is the same. "
But they also reserve the right to use "speaking as a man" whenever it's convenient.
whiteLamanite · 2 points · Posted at 21:29:03 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
And that's where the problem lies, to Mormons believe God and the prophet/apostles are the same. Because God would never let a prophet or apostle lead the Mormon church astray. God speaks through the prophet, therefore they are the same. That is why once you start questioning the prophet, tbms assume you also question God. By questioning God, you don't have the right to have an opinion on the mormon church anymore.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 05:31:13 on February 6, 2019 · (Permalink)
ISWYDT
MorticiaSmith · 25 points · Posted at 15:08:29 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
How dare you use your further light and knowledge to make decisions for your own life. We and ancient scribes know much better what you should do with your life.
mushbo · 20 points · Posted at 16:21:43 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
That sums it up right there.
doubledoublehelix · 15 points · Posted at 17:47:05 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
Right. Oaks wants to have his cake and eat it too.
We speak for God, so trust us, dammit.
And also
Stop believing that we're perfect and can't make mistakes! Sometimes we speak as men of our time, and by that, I mean sometimes the dead leaders spoke as men of their time, but me, right now, I'm definitely speaking for God.
Tidderring · 12 points · Posted at 17:23:32 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
Time-honored? No way— Martin Luther was when?
PaulFThumpkins · 17 points · Posted at 15:24:42 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
The church can't even follow that advice! Why not double down on Lamanites, a young Earth, Masonic ordinances as corruptions of the "real" ones and "civil rights as Communist plot derp" when the world takes those things to task instead of abandoning their leaders' teachings?
zionisfled · 5 points · Posted at 22:04:46 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
maybe we'd trust the Lord more if he stopped choosing liars to lead us
ReverseBaptism · 174 points · Posted at 14:15:03 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
“When you are asked a difficult question, such as a puzzler about Church history, be honest and, if necessary, say you don't know. But then be sure to say what you do know: ‘I know that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God’."
When my kids ask me something I'm unsure about the first thing I do is say, "Hey. I don't know. Let's look that up." I don't profess my feelings about an unrelated topic.
SUPinitup · 144 points · Posted at 14:22:57 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
Kids: why is the sky blue?
Oaks: I don't know but I know that clouds are white.
Kids: Uhhhhhhhh thanks (gets on Google and learns why the sky is actually blue).
cogman10 · 42 points · Posted at 14:33:14 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
More like "why is the sky blue" "I don't know, but I believe Nelson is a prophet!"
rth1027 · 26 points · Posted at 15:51:47 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
I don’t know but do know with every fiber of my being clouds are made with white crayons.
Tidderring · 7 points · Posted at 17:24:41 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
Thought it was white cotton fluff :)
PM_ME_YOUR_TODODEKU · 5 points · Posted at 17:43:31 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
Dang I thought it was ice cream
mastercommander81 · 6 points · Posted at 17:45:24 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
COTTON CANDY
Tidderring · 6 points · Posted at 17:45:31 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
❤️🍡🍧🍨🍦
oldeport · 19 points · Posted at 16:00:33 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
We may never know why the sky is blue in this life, but that's only because it's not pertinent to our salvation.
HealMySoulPlz · 17 points · Posted at 14:42:13 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
Make sure to ask "why isn't the sky violet" as your follow-up question.
LatterDaySmackdown · 10 points · Posted at 17:24:00 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
By studying the life and teachings of Joseph Smith from approved church manuals, you will know and understand why the sky is blue
lol-ko-kau-beam · 2 points · Posted at 19:31:11 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
For those curious, it's basically because air is blue.
12hangrymen · 27 points · Posted at 14:24:51 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)*
;lk
FullClockworkOddessy · 18 points · Posted at 15:11:27 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
Two of the most important sentences for a child to learn are "No" and "I don't know."
MorticiaSmith · 8 points · Posted at 15:11:19 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
I have learned many things myself doing this message.
I just learned some things about gravity and we recreated Newtons law and dropped a penny and a rock from the landing.
victory4satan · 9 points · Posted at 15:56:50 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
I never knew how freeing it would feel to say, "I don't know" after my whole life of "knowing."
mastercommander81 · 5 points · Posted at 17:46:49 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
Ramen 🙌
Valiant_Steed · 6 points · Posted at 18:26:24 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
That statement also stood out to me as particularly idiotic. "If someone challenges your brainwashing with historical facts, just deflect and regurgitate the programming."
PaulFThumpkins · 5 points · Posted at 21:09:19 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
Also it isn't "honest" to say you don't know if you do know and the truth just isn't flattering to the church. As if anything bad for Mormonism is just "unknowable."
cloistered_around · 3 points · Posted at 00:04:59 on February 6, 2019 · (Permalink)
It's not wise of them to push the Smith thing. When I started thinking that maybe the church "wasn't accurate" (couldn't allow myself to think it was "untrue" at that time, yet) Smith was one thing I was more than happy to toss aside as long as the modern prophets were doing better.
Heck, even as a kid it annoyed me how often people talked about Smith and basically ignored every prophet since. Technically they were just as important, right? But you only ever heard about one.
YukonCornelius00 · 1 points · Posted at 08:07:09 on February 6, 2019 · (Permalink)
And what if a kid's question is about Joseph Smith's legitimacy as a prophet? Still okay to say you don't know?
Labans_Severed_Head · 230 points · Posted at 13:09:26 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
I feel like Oaks' statement on research is just a nuanced way of saying: "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain."
Bednar_Done_That · 108 points · Posted at 13:31:31 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
With as often as they speak about Church history causing people to lose their faith... they must be seeing some extremely ugly statistics in their Thursday meetings. It’s literally all-hands-on-deck for the Q-15 to try to stem the tide of disaffected members.
I’m enjoying the show from my new found vantage point... burn baby burn!
[deleted] · 25 points · Posted at 15:16:18 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
KoolAidRefuser · 3 points · Posted at 20:39:32 on February 6, 2019 · (Permalink)
That's my guess too. From $32B in liquid stock assets to untold billions in real estate speculation, the Q15 are gearing up for the end times (the end of the profitable church). They're in full cost-cutting mode. No more pageants nor scouting, conscripted janitors, a two-hour block to maximize existing buildings, reorganizing stakes and carving stake offices out of existing ward buildings, and calling senior missionaries to work at church-owned businesses. The only things they never balk at is the bills they so willingly cough up to Kirton McKonkie.
The bind they find themselves in now is their ridiculous spending on temples. That extravagance is unsupportable. A real sign-o-the-times will be when they shutter an underutilized temple.
victory4satan · 20 points · Posted at 15:52:12 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
Right?! I think if I was TBM and heard all of this talk about church history, I'd want to know more. Not stay away from it. I honestly didn't know there was any controversy around church history until I went down the rabbit hole. In fact, I was once talking to a TBM about the controversy around Joseph Smith and she said, "what controversy?!" This was years ago and I think every TBM must know that there IS controversy but maybe not know WHAT that controversy is...
distant_diva · 10 points · Posted at 16:21:46 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
My thoughts exactly. More curious, truth seeking people will see this an invitation to find out what all the fuss is about lol.
seventhvision · 9 points · Posted at 17:38:23 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
I would instantly get online and research for what I shouldn't be researching for. I don't like it when people tell me they're hididng something from me, and I should just ignore it.
distant_diva · 7 points · Posted at 17:45:54 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
Same here! That's why I'm here :)
[deleted] · 17 points · Posted at 15:33:46 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
The real challenge with those meetings (not that dealing with disaffected members isn't hard) is that they require at least one of them to be off-site and telepresence in. They do this for security reasons as if they don't trust god to protect their pharisee asses.
So the real challenge of these meetings is some old guy fumbling around to get his face to show up on screen and the audio to work. It usually takes at least 20 minutes. It doesn't help that they change up this role so nobody does this more than once a year.
FullClockworkOddessy · 28 points · Posted at 15:08:10 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
And they're so far removed from gay culture that they don't even know who Barbara Streissand is, much less the Streissand effect.
Tidderring · 7 points · Posted at 17:21:11 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
From the photo— not a big crowd.
usernameretired · 4 points · Posted at 19:58:55 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
and isn't it amazing - out of millions people in chicago, they can only get upper middle class white transplants from the mountain west to show up.
this looks like a country club meeting from 1950.
the faces on these people make me cringe. the only person relaxed is oaks who seems to relish the spotlight.
Unloyaldissenter · 51 points · Posted at 13:44:41 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
*Oaks waves hand*
"These are not the droids you are looking for"
Youth with google on their phone: "Actually, those look exactly like the droids we are looking for"
Readbooks6 · 41 points · Posted at 14:23:22 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
I try to work the phrase "I was curious so I googled it" into my lessons at school at least once a month.
Hopefully, many of my 800 students will remember to google when they hear something that strikes them as strange.
FHL88Work · 3 points · Posted at 19:22:21 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
You have 800 students? How on earth do you manage bathroom breaks for all of them?
(I don't know why I assumed you were an elementary/middle school teacher. Sorry for assuming your profession.)
Readbooks6 · 3 points · Posted at 19:37:25 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
Ha! You are not wrong
I'm an elementary school teacher/librarian. It's the best job in the school. Part of that is because I don't have to worry about bathroom breaks. :)
AgtSquirtle007 · 25 points · Posted at 14:23:57 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
Who are you going to believe?
Your wise, faithful, chosen-by-God-himself leader?
Or your own eyes?
krakatak · 0 points · Posted at 23:32:12 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
FTFY
That's a hell of a burn you inflicted right there.
trying_to_believe · 15 points · Posted at 17:17:04 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
:P
Tidderring · 6 points · Posted at 15:34:25 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
1# Mormon-definition :)
konkeydong · 2 points · Posted at 21:10:38 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
But he keeps asking me "What is wanted?"
sambean25 · 79 points · Posted at 14:23:52 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
I love how he is clearly training parents to gaslight THEIR OWN CHILDREN. The fuck is that?
"When asked a difficult question, such as a puzzler about church history... say you don't know. But then be sure to say what you do know: 'I know that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God'."
Everyday these so called 'apostles of God' show me that this isn't about religion but making money and hiding the truth from millions.
voiceafx · 26 points · Posted at 17:34:34 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
It's remarkable how he can say this stuff with a straight face.
"Hey Dad, I just learned that Joseph married a 14 year-old, lied about practicing polygamy, and was a treasure digger con-artist. What's up with that? Oh, and he falsely claimed to translate the hoax Kinderhook plates, and the Book of Abraham."
"I don't know, son. But here's what I do know - Joseph was a prophet of God. I know this because it feels right."
What a mind wank.
istherenootherway2 · 2 points · Posted at 19:08:20 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
This is literally Steven C Harper's faith story https://mormonhistoryguy.com/2014/03/13/podcast-7-first-vision/ About 10 minutes in..
LilBner · 73 points · Posted at 13:02:14 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
Oaks is going to sink away into the memory hole like McKonkie did. His way of "mormoning" isn't sustainable.
[deleted] · 25 points · Posted at 14:58:49 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
Hubby and I were talking about this yesterday. If Oaks ever takes control, there will be an even larger exodus of members.
heywhatareyoudoing · 15 points · Posted at 15:29:33 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
I think Nelson will probably outlive him.
sukui_no_keikaku · 18 points · Posted at 15:34:59 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
Must be taking his Vitamins.
tenpeanuts · 17 points · Posted at 18:10:11 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
With his right hand
sukui_no_keikaku · 8 points · Posted at 18:35:32 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
Anything else would be sinister.
HumanRaisedByHumans · 7 points · Posted at 17:20:02 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
In pill form. That's important.
schleppenheimer · 51 points · Posted at 14:13:44 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
You know, every time I read something about Oaks, I kind of roll my eyes and say to myself this is just to be expected from him. He's an old, mean, stodgy man. But then I remember -- this one's a SMART, EXPERIENCED man, not some fumbling bumpkin. When he says "research is not the answer," he knows exactly what he's doing. He KNOWS that smart people DO RESEARCH on most of the important things in their lives -- that's just what responsible adults do. May I just postulate that President Oaks doesn't want responsible, smart, intelligent people to be in the church -- he wants grunts.
SUPinitup · 21 points · Posted at 14:19:36 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
The meek, submissive, and humble or in other words "grunts" are exactly what they want.
waway_to_thro · 52 points · Posted at 13:03:15 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
What a hobgoblin, he must know it's false right?
FullClockworkOddessy · 37 points · Posted at 15:09:30 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
You don't worry about people looking for something unless you know that it's there to be found.
PaulFThumpkins · 14 points · Posted at 15:28:46 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
Oaks himself has talked about "revelation" as leaders making decisions and those being the Lord's decisions because they're called by him. These people are invested. They have their ways of rationalizing, same as literally every member who has given a blessing or retconned a warm fuzzy as an unmistakable message from God to inspire lifelong commitment.
istherenootherway2 · 2 points · Posted at 19:12:14 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
I thought "the Lord's ways are not Oaks' ways, neither are His thoughts Oaks' thoughts."
NiceAtheist · 9 points · Posted at 15:08:42 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
I don't think so, as hard as that is to believe.
OralOperator · 10 points · Posted at 14:55:31 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
Yes
ImTheMarmotKing · 1 points · Posted at 21:39:26 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
No he's unfortunately very sincere
RaceofDeceivers · 47 points · Posted at 14:21:54 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
Research is absolutely the answer. Oaks, in so many words, is admonishing these adults to double down, embrace their ignorance, and forget the question.
namtokmuu · 31 points · Posted at 15:00:12 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
I guess “study it out in your mind” is now anti-TSCC doctrine!
usernameretired · 3 points · Posted at 20:08:24 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
totally, no point even going to firesides like this anymore... because it's research
eavana · 4 points · Posted at 18:58:18 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)*
My response to him: "Is this not how J.S. started his whole
religioncult?! By 'researching' the Holy Bib and other faiths?"Such a backwards formula I'm glad I no longer guzzle down mt throat by these people.
sim48860 · 30 points · Posted at 13:00:18 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
That answer is based on decades of polling research erh um I mean prayer and temple attendance.
FullClockworkOddessy · 12 points · Posted at 15:13:39 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
To paraphrase the great philosopher Capt. Jean-Luc Picard what use has God for a market research agency?
victory4satan · 5 points · Posted at 15:57:48 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
Hahaha!! 🤣
[deleted] · 28 points · Posted at 14:17:45 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
“When you are asked a difficult question, such as a puzzler about Church history, be honest and, if necessary, say you don't know. But then be sure to say what you do know: ‘I know that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God’."
The old fall back on testimony strategy...this is why discussing church history with my TBM family feels like repeatedly hanging my head into the wall.
kylo_hen · 16 points · Posted at 15:11:04 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
But what if that's thing I'm questioning???
victory4satan · 9 points · Posted at 15:48:33 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
EXACTLY. I finally had to get down to that when talking to my TBM family. I don't just have some issues with policies or some uncomfortable parts of church history. I literally don't believe JS was a prophet. At all.
ChrbmFlamigFleshSwrd · 3 points · Posted at 21:14:20 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
All the foundational "truths" are fraudulent: JS, first vision(s), BoM, restoration, priesthood...
razerrr10k · 2 points · Posted at 08:18:22 on February 6, 2019 · (Permalink)
Hey when you get looking into warped histories of second or third hand accounts, of course you’ll find some concerning stuff that may or may not be true, just remember that Joseph Smith was a prophet and don’t worry about it!
That’s the typical answer I get when I explain where I’m coming from when it comes to church history. TBMs don’t understand or don’t want to understand that it’s the foundational stuff.
ChrbmFlamigFleshSwrd · 1 points · Posted at 09:26:20 on February 23, 2019 · (Permalink)
JS is a prophet alright, a false one. It really isn't even worth discussing with mo's.
nameyouruse · 7 points · Posted at 15:47:25 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
"I KNOW THAT THE CHURCH IS TRUE"
anongirluser · 6 points · Posted at 17:32:48 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
"You chose to be baptized!"
Mediocratic_Oath · 13 points · Posted at 18:11:54 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
"Mother, I was eight. I also chose to leave teeth under my pillow for a fairy."
victory4satan · 7 points · Posted at 15:50:02 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
It's just not worth talking about the church with TBMs. They always fall back on their feelings and personal experiences. I used to say that there's nothing I could learn about Joseph Smith that would change how I view him about a prophet..... Hahahahaha 🤣
distant_diva · 6 points · Posted at 16:35:03 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
The personal experiences are always "too sacred to share" bullshit.
krakatak · 24 points · Posted at 13:15:58 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
The most shocking party about the article was the direct link to the Gospel Topics Essays. I expected a link to the top of lds.org and that's it.
Bednar_Done_That · 36 points · Posted at 13:25:52 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
Yeah. A link to the essays but with instructions that “research is not the answer” ... I cannot believe I used to revere this asshole.
I can’t wait until this guy gets to sit in the big chair... his ego will be uncontainable. Should make for some great cringe !
krakatak · 15 points · Posted at 13:31:10 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
He will do more to drive people out of the Church than Helen Mar Kimball.
FullClockworkOddessy · 5 points · Posted at 15:14:45 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
Might even give Pervy Joe a run for his money.
krakatak · 1 points · Posted at 23:31:01 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
That'd be quite the feat.
namtokmuu · 12 points · Posted at 14:57:06 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
In a sense he is already in the Big Chair. The first press conference showed who was driving...I think.
krakatak · 2 points · Posted at 23:38:09 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
It's worse you're an adult convert. How the hell did I not know better?
heywhatareyoudoing · 9 points · Posted at 15:30:54 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
There is a closet dissenter working for Church News.
voiceafx · 5 points · Posted at 17:37:19 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
Hey, if they want to show up in search results instead of "anti" sources, they need to SEO those essays and create backlinks.
Uncorrelated_AF · 22 points · Posted at 14:26:01 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
If one believes in a god, it’s insulting to think that said god wants his people to shut off the 🧠 to find truth.
runsamuelrun · 22 points · Posted at 15:01:33 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
I was just hanging out with my TBM parents and my Dad said, “Google is the devil.” 😆
temple_baby · 23 points · Posted at 15:42:37 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
All the really culty stuff has been covered, so I wanted to point out this quote:
“For example, the voices of young mothers who had great difficulty managing children during a 3-hour block of meetings on Sunday was an important consideration in reducing our worship meetings to two hours and Primary’s duration commensurately.”
This is such a load of crap. The new changes aren't helping young mothers. The difficult part of church has always been Sacrament meeting. Making Primary shorter doesn't help mothers unless they themselves are in Primary. For many stay-at-home moms (and stay-at-home dads, too), Primary is the only time they get away from their kids all week. And, now, in exchange for this shorter block, these young moms are saddled with the extra work and guilt associated with attempting to corral their squirrelly kids at home and trying to have meaningful gospel study.
victory4satan · 11 points · Posted at 16:00:47 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
I know. This part made me roll my eyes. Like really, that's why you shortened church? Since when has TSCC ever really cared about women and mothers?
dfinetherelationship · 7 points · Posted at 16:35:43 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
Women whose husbands are in the bishopric will still be wrangling their children throughout sacrament meeting while their husbands look on comfortably from the rostrum.
istherenootherway2 · 3 points · Posted at 19:20:48 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
I thought God told them to do the 2 hours? /s Not surveys of women and Whispering Wendy
temple_baby · 5 points · Posted at 15:58:06 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
I suppose the only time it does help is that 6 months between when babies start walking and are old enough for nursery.
ChrbmFlamigFleshSwrd · 1 points · Posted at 21:21:38 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
I never understood why kids under X age even go to sacrament meeting. Shouldn't they just go directly to nursery/primary?
Kolob_Bob · 21 points · Posted at 15:02:51 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
It’s like that one quote: “ If we have the truth, it ought not to be investigated. If we have not the truth... same thing.”
Javelou · 19 points · Posted at 15:16:40 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
“We are taught to love our neighbors, but it is not easy to love and live with those who have different standards and sometimes challenge us and our standards in a persuasive or even threatening way,” he said.
Good grief.
dfinetherelationship · 10 points · Posted at 16:31:15 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
Right?? Speak for yourself, Oaks. It’s not hard to love others who are different from us. It’s really not.
JComX5 · 2 points · Posted at 19:41:58 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
It's like he's talking about THE CHURCH the ones who actually have different standards and challenge ours not just in a threatening way, but in a legal way.
legaladolt · 5 points · Posted at 16:01:01 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
What I need to put next time my mom comes by asking me to come to church with them or suggests talks and devotionals I’ve already read.
Mollyapostate · 17 points · Posted at 14:35:18 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
Research is not the answer. Just buy overpriced books that the General Authorities publish by ghost writers they get rich from.
cogman10 · 17 points · Posted at 14:31:38 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
Yeah, teach your kids to not be inquisitive and thought stopping techniques.
GrayWalle · 13 points · Posted at 14:55:37 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
The gaslighting is strong.
BroBrotherton · 14 points · Posted at 15:02:08 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
They have no respect for members and no shame.
iwgbot · 11 points · Posted at 14:27:09 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
I'm caught up on "Latter-Saint couples". Is that the new verbiage? Latter-Saints?
HumanRaisedByHumans · 12 points · Posted at 17:23:57 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
They'll keep cutting parts out to their own demise...
Latter-day Saint
Latter-Saint
LatSaint
Lataint
Taint
gvsurf · 12 points · Posted at 14:43:54 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
Hmmm. Like the research he didn’t do before he gave that talk
moltenbeetle · 3 points · Posted at 00:42:47 on February 6, 2019 · (Permalink)
or to become a god damn judge
apostatizeme · 12 points · Posted at 16:06:02 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
This shit cracks me up. Don't look in to it. Don't think about it. Say you don't know. Then, TESTIFY that you KNOW it's true. Oh god the cultiness.
ChrbmFlamigFleshSwrd · 2 points · Posted at 21:23:02 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
Right, WTF!?
oldeport · 10 points · Posted at 16:12:22 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
There are all kinds of applications for this mode of thought.
"If you ever find yourself doubting the moon landing, be honest and, if necessary, say you don't know. But then be sure to say what you do know: I know the earth is flat."
butt_thumper · 10 points · Posted at 18:29:35 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
Each time they bring this up, I'm reminded of the age-old, universal principle:
If someone is actively and aggressively discouraging you from seeking truth, that person is not your friend. Your ignorance gives them leverage, and leverage is not necessary in a healthy, honest relationship.
sensationalsundays · 8 points · Posted at 18:52:03 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
“Conversion to the Lord precedes conversion to the Church. And conversion to the Lord comes through prayer and study and service, furthered by loving patience on the part of spouse and other concerned family members.”
Ok, so not a popular thing here but my husband and I still believe in God and Jesus. Our conversion to the Lord is what led us out of the church. We realized that the Lord wouldn’t exclude children from receiving baptism because their parents are homosexual. The Lord doesn’t care if a man has a beard. That shouldn’t prevent somebody from serving the Lord. The Lord isn’t going to say it is okay for church leaders to lie to members of his church about anything. The Lord doesn’t care if I wear pants to church. The Lord doesn’t care if I take the sacrament with my left hand. So I have to say, my conversion to the Lord prevented me from continuing my conversion to the Mormon church.
usernameretired · 1 points · Posted at 20:37:50 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
attended a stake conference once, where jesus was mentioned in 1 talk in 2 hrs. literally! that was nail in the coffin for me.
people converted to the lord don't play mental gymnastics with historicity shit and doctrinal arguments all the time.
the quest for perfect understanding is the booby prize, but it sure is fun to litigate against these blowhards I suppose.
funny thing is that oaks (mr. legal researcher) spent his entire life researching - so he is advocating to do the exact opposite of how he spent his entire life.
as a "seer" he sure didn't see very well 30-40 yrs ago. and a special witness of jesus christ - he sure doesn't witness very much.
FuckTheFuckOffFucker · 8 points · Posted at 16:00:47 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
Interestingly enough John, I was just doing some "research" and happened to be reading this summary of a similar visit Jeff Holland had with young, married couples. Complete with cheesy scripted questions from the audience, anecdotes that don't reflect reality, and "advice" on how to handle doubts. This is seriously their strategy??!?
https://www.lds.org/church/news/elder-holland-answers-questions-from-young-married-latter-day-saints-in-anglican-oxford-chapel?lang=eng
carnivorouspickle · 6 points · Posted at 15:23:25 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
What respected institutions and leaders are questioning the existence of right and wrong?
NNArielle · 2 points · Posted at 19:41:12 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
You're forgetting that Oaks believes gender, gender roles, and heterosexual marriage are part of the right and wrong equation.
2sacred2relate · 6 points · Posted at 14:34:17 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
He's probably the next President of the Corporation.
[deleted] · 5 points · Posted at 15:56:25 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
The information age will kill organized religion once the indoctrinated die off.
The truth will set us free.
[deleted] · 6 points · Posted at 17:46:53 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
Ugh. This article makes it really difficult for me to not be angry with my parents for their continued support of the church.
My parents know full well that Mormon teachings about gay people emotionally and mentally destroyed me for years and pushed me to the brink of suicide at a very young age. They know that a lot of LGBTQ+ people actually have died over those teachings. They know that people still go through this every time one of these assholes gets up at conference and goes on another tirade against LGBTQ+ people. I have confronted them about these things and they have admitted to knowing about them and have even admitted to dreading the GC talks on LGBTQ+ issues. I get frustrated but I know they are deeply indoctrinated and I try to be as understanding as possible.
But then something like this comes along and it’s just like, what the actual fuck?! This isn’t a simple thought terminating cliche. This is one of their highest leaders outright telling them not to research their own church that they donate massive amounts of time and money to. This is their leaders explicitly telling them not to search for truth. I don’t know how to be understanding of outright choosing to remain willfully ignorant while they know people are suffering at the hands of TSCC.
schleppenheimer · 3 points · Posted at 17:56:40 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
Amen. A million times, amen.
LeoMarius · 6 points · Posted at 18:41:12 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
If someone tells you not to verify what they are telling you, you are being scammed.
platofzion · 6 points · Posted at 17:13:11 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
The photos of the audience looked like they could've been taken in Utah County (lots of white people). I'd guess that many of these young couples are from the Morridor and in Chicago for grad school or for a first job out of college and they'll jump at their first chance to move back to the comforts of a community that looks and thinks like them and doesn't challenge their beliefs. So basically he was speaking to people more like himself, "Hang in there, there's a McMansion waiting for you in Draper when you're done with dental school."
RaCaRWE · 3 points · Posted at 15:29:03 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
"When you are asked a difficult question, such as a puzzler about Church history, be honest and, if necessary, say you don't know. But then be sure to say what you do know: ‘I know that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God"
WOW....
tk_smoothie · 3 points · Posted at 15:48:17 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)*
“For example, the voices of young mothers who had great difficulty managing children during a 3-hour block of meetings on Sunday was an important consideration in reducing our worship meetings to two hours and Primary’s duration commensurately.”
🙄
Edit: It gets worse.
The General Authorities, he added, value “the experience and voice and wisdom” of the sister leaders, particularly the General Officers of the auxiliary presidencies.
“These sisters were consulted frequently on the important developments announced during the last year, and their advice was embodied in all of them.”
Edit 2: Oh boy.
"The priesthood presides in each.”
distant_diva · 5 points · Posted at 16:19:52 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
This is going to backfire on them big time. People tend to do exactly the opposite of what they're told to do when presented like this. Curious people at least.
usernameretired · 1 points · Posted at 20:36:11 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
wise diva.
voiceafx · 3 points · Posted at 16:39:18 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
Early in my "faith crisis," my parents gave me a book, written by Oaks, about the proper role of science as it relates to faith. I forget the title.
Ironically, that book did as much to push me away as anything. Mormon epistemology has issues.
SisMcChurch · 5 points · Posted at 18:13:51 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
“We are taught to love our neighbors, but it is not easy to love and live with those who have different standards and sometimes challenge us and our standards in a persuasive or even threatening way,” he said.
Umm, not that hard to love and live with people who aren't my clones. And those neighbors are right about you-know-what.
Also interesting how he throws young mothers under the bus as the reason why church was suddenly changed to two hours, after 100+ years. Cuz the moms were having a hard time with their kids!
Pilot963 · 3 points · Posted at 18:18:52 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
This is a beautiful thing.
The Twelve and Seventy on the defense.
We have come a long way fellow Heathens.
Life is good.
Three-eyed_seagull · 3 points · Posted at 18:48:18 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
"Some people without brains do an awful lot of talking, don't they?"
-The Scarecrow, The Wizard of Oz-
Beuponme · 4 points · Posted at 23:16:39 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
The woman on the stand wearing a blue sweater IS NOT BUYING IT.
unkuver · 1 points · Posted at 03:39:11 on February 6, 2019 · (Permalink)
So true. Arms folded with a look of disgust! I don’t know who she is, but I’d take her discernment over his any day.
fuckthisthat · 3 points · Posted at 15:30:04 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
Ignore learning. Forget about it. No one needs to learn. Just be a sheep and follow.
Back to church. /s
Longtrekker · 3 points · Posted at 15:38:40 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
I usually don't get mad about dumb shit these old fogeys say, but this one got me. The fact that your average TBM could read this and say, "yeah there's nothing wrong with this," shows how brainwashed and conditioned the so-called "Church" has people. Amazing the long-reaching effect Joe Smith and other false prophets continue to have on so many people. Fuck "the Church."
RekrahCreative · 3 points · Posted at 16:28:54 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
the lady on the left! I scrolled in to screenshot that. her face is fantastic. I'm dying of laughter. I hope others there had the same face!
unkuver · 2 points · Posted at 03:35:51 on February 6, 2019 · (Permalink)
Came to say this. So funny. She looks thoroughly baffled... like, WTF is he talking about?
CaptainMacaroni · 3 points · Posted at 17:16:24 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
Leaders in TSCC be like
doogie_hoog · 3 points · Posted at 17:20:15 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
I suggest that research IS the answer, as long as they are doing it together. But then again, I'm not trying to hold on to these young adults by every means possible either, so......
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 18:05:52 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
Can we just have like one day....ONE...DAY... where the church doesn't say or do something that makes me throw up in my mouth a little?
white_washin_4dayz · 3 points · Posted at 18:10:27 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
WOW! I'm too lazy to look it up, but I can remember a teaching where people can know if a prophet or apostle is speaking the truth when it aligns with the standard works. Where in the scriptures has it ever said to stick your head in the sand and not search for truth?
"You did not study it out in your mind.."
"Seek and ye shall find.."
"If any of you lack wisdom.."
"Impossible to be saved in ignorance.."
This isn't just false doctrine, it's false doctrine even according to Mormon doctrine. The part that cracks me up the most though is the next paragraph where he mentions studying is important. Maybe I was taught wrong, but I always thought study and research went hand-in-hand.
FaithInEvidence · 3 points · Posted at 19:50:06 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
This reaffirms my belief that the general authorities are not honest men.
B-Goat · 2 points · Posted at 17:26:18 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
...no words can express the idiocy of that statement.
zionisfled · 2 points · Posted at 17:52:06 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
I hope that wasn't his motto as a lawyer
gutenfluten · 2 points · Posted at 19:21:02 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
Couldn't help but notice that Oaks is gesturing with his left hand in all 3 photos in the article. Maybe that's a symbol he's speaking as a man, and he gestures with his right hand when speaking as an apostle?
Kishkumen567 · 2 points · Posted at 19:44:25 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
DEMOCRATS! I can’t believe TBM’s have to live under them!
yauguts · 1 points · Posted at 15:40:19 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
“...some Latter-Saint couples...”
Interesting new terminology.
thisismy_username__ · 1 points · Posted at 16:21:50 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
Gross.
SeerStoneInMyChefHat · 1 points · Posted at 16:26:45 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
Barf
PixelSoda · 1 points · Posted at 16:51:05 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
One of these days, soon, the board will liquidate everything and cash-out.
the70sdiscoking · 1 points · Posted at 17:24:26 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
I'm surprised they even brought attention/hyperlinks to the essays.
ngryjonny · 3 points · Posted at 17:40:02 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
That's what I was thinking. Research is not the answer, but if you insist on researching, then the Gospel Topics Essays are the only research you need to do. The problem with that strategy is that there is enough "truth" in those essays to make shelves come crashing down. That's what the priesthood ban essay did to me. It was the ultimate mind f#ck. Wait a minute, I though the prophets were infallible and could never lead us astray? And now they were just racist men not speaking for God on that issue. Well if prophets could be wrong about something so important all the way long past the Civil Rights movement, then what else could they be wrong about? For me, it meant that it was time to find out for myself... and down the rabbit hole I went.
the70sdiscoking · 3 points · Posted at 17:52:57 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
The essays are more than enough for most to leave the church. If someone goes into them with their hardhat and safety vest they may be safe, but any member who unexpectantly stumbles into them is going to be in real trouble.
That's why I'm pleasantly shocked they linked the articles. My only thought is that Oaks, or whoever reviewed this article, is so ignorant to believe that nothing can lead a member astray and/or believes the gospel essays actually provide soundproof arguments, decided to site them in the naïve hopes that they'll actually settle a member's faith crisis.
lost-in-translation- · 1 points · Posted at 18:35:37 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
So how many talks have they done now about "hard questions" in the last month? 4? Really sounds like they are concerned.
Run_all_night_EU · 1 points · Posted at 18:42:31 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
Oh my holy fudgecicles.
ratfash · 1 points · Posted at 19:06:50 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
what # wife is Kristen Oaks?
usernameretired · 2 points · Posted at 20:41:56 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
2
ratfash · 1 points · Posted at 21:11:43 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
so, plenty of room to grow /s
Jeffro_the_exmo · 1 points · Posted at 19:28:21 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
This same talk was posted in /LatterDaySaints and everyone agrees that faith and not studying is the answer. It makes me sick that these guys can go up and blatantly try to cover up the issues and there are still people following it blind
rock-n-white-hat · 1 points · Posted at 19:41:28 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
This is like when the Catholic Church used to say only priests were allowed to read the Bible. How about he tell all the people over there at FAIR that research is not the answer.
FletchShepard · 1 points · Posted at 20:35:54 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
A different analogy: A company hides the fact that they've lied to the IRS, Lied to their employees, lied to their customers and obfuscated their history. They tell Wall Street, Investors, employees and customers to please ignore their fraud, deception and illegal business practices because they have great corporate messaging and branding, they also contribute around 2% of total income to charity and do some good things which are highly publicized in press they own.
inthefreezr · 1 points · Posted at 20:41:24 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
I have not read the church news in a VERY long time, but reading this is like a Xinhua news propaganda piece with Xi Dada visits an orphanage or something like that -- " As subzero temperatures in the region have snagged headlines over the past several days, for local Latter-day Saints the joy of hosting a member of the First Presidency was perhaps augmented on Saturday by warmer temperatures, which made the early February conditions feel almost pleasant."
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 21:15:14 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
Once again, proof positive that they all know it is crap. If they believed all of it they would be happy for people to research it, because in the end, it will ultimately withstand scrutiny. Problem is, it does not withstand scrutiny. It’s horseshit made up by a sexual predator and con man.
zionisfled · 1 points · Posted at 22:08:37 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
I think oaks must have a tattoo somewhere that says ”time-honored principles”
billywob · 1 points · Posted at 22:15:54 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
It really is something for them to say that.
Anonymocoso · 1 points · Posted at 22:57:08 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
You should repost this to /r/streisandeffect
birdernerder · 1 points · Posted at 23:03:18 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
Coming from the same guy who said "it's wrong to criticize church leaders, even if the criticisms are true", why am I not surprised. Worst part is that people actually fall for that bullshit.
moltenbeetle · 1 points · Posted at 00:45:11 on February 6, 2019 · (Permalink)
seek me (with approved sources only) and ye shall find me
jpba1352 · 1 points · Posted at 00:45:51 on February 6, 2019 · (Permalink)
"President" Oaks. President is not the appropriate title for scum.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 02:15:46 on February 6, 2019 · (Permalink)
Certainly not the response a truth-holding organization would provide.
kaplocks815 · 1 points · Posted at 02:38:10 on February 6, 2019 · (Permalink)
I thought this said Professor Oak and was wondering what advice a Pokemon researcher had on faith-threatening questions
LillyPie88 · 1 points · Posted at 19:29:47 on February 6, 2019 · (Permalink)
Is there a copy of his complete talk somewhere?
nevruary35th · -1 points · Posted at 18:18:41 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)
I just want to point out that Oaks is NOT saying to not do any research - he's saying that research is not the answer to a marriage between two people who have different values. Which I would tend to agree with. I mean yeah, Oaks, whatever, the guy's got his issues, but it doesn't serve us or our community to mischaracterize what he says because then it's easier to trash him.
TheLeapist · 6 points · Posted at 19:46:00 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)*
I think you are the one who's mischaracterizing him actually. He wasn't referring to fixing random marital issues, he was referring to fixing your spouse's testimony specifically after they've learned some troubling facts about the church. In which case research, if the church was actually true and honest, would in fact be the correct thing to do to resolve those issues. If your spouse's belief that the earth is flat or that you shouldn't vaccinate your children is causing some strain on you and your relationship how could you argue that researching those subjects together isn't the correct course of action?
butt_thumper · 4 points · Posted at 20:50:54 on February 5, 2019 · (Permalink)*
Yeahhh your interpretation only works if you remove the context of the rest of the paragraph between that line and Oaks' response. He is talking about couples who are in conflict specifically due to matters of Church History and doctrinal issues. He's telling people not to research any issues that are contributing to their spouse's faith crisis. He's literally telling people to be willfully ignorant to things that are causing their spouse's mental/spiritual/emotional distress.
I don't know how anyone could interpret it otherwise.
I'm assuming that when you say you agree with the sentiment, you mean you don't think research is the ultimate fix. Which, I mean, no one would disagree with that. In fact I don't think anyone was ever thinking "research will save my marriage." But how would research hurt the effort? Doesn't attempting to understand your spouse's perspective help even a little in finding common ground?
Oaks isn't trying to temper expectations, he's literally trying to discourage research, and it is absolutely not the first time he's done so.