๐๏ธ PascalsRiskAversion ยท 800 points ยท Posted at 06:28:08 on December 24, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
On my mission, there was a special leadership meeting held where dozens of district and zone leaders had a meeting led by the assistants to the mission president. They got the meeting going with a solemn prayer and then hit us with a big new revelation right from the church HQ. We were to instruct our investigators to pray about the church and if god wanted them to join, they would have a dream that night in which they would see the face of Jesus and that would be a sign that god wanted them to be mormon. The APs let that sink in for a moment and then asked an elder what he felt in his heart. The elder said that he felt the spirit very strongly in support. The APs seemed flustered and asked another elder who proclaimed a burning in the bosom over this new plan. The APs then said "Ok, who all here is feeling a stupor of thought or bad about this?" and motioned his hands upwards as if he expected the whole room to raise their hands. Nobody did. After some hemming and hawing, the APs stumbled through an explanation of what they were doing. Apparently, they thought this would be a brilliant exercise in recognizing positive and negative confirmations of the spirit. They had made up the story about the plan from HQ and expected everyone to have a dark, anti-spirit feeling about it because it was false. MANY elders were distraught and confused about why they felt "the spirit" confirm something that wasn't true. I didn't feel anything other than "welp, here's another bit of busy work that will be abandoned in a few months like all the others."
Months later, this and other experiences would lead me to the inevitable conclusion that the "spirit" is just our emotions telling us what we already believe or want to believe. In a cascade of collapse, my shelf would end up on the floor and I would be headed home early.
grove_doubter ยท 236 points ยท Posted at 06:52:26 on December 24, 2018 ยท (Permalink)*
Those APs were fools.
Ben Franklin said, โTricks and treachery are the practice of fools that don't have brains enough to be honest.โ
Their trick backfired on them. Let's hope they learned something from it.
You did.
Good for you!
๐๐๐
Anna3254 ยท 31 points ยท Posted at 08:10:59 on December 24, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
That quote reminds me of a certain joe smith ๐ค
Yonefi ยท 9 points ยท Posted at 15:28:11 on December 24, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I love me some Ben Franklin. The quote is ironic because Franklin once wrote in his diary about how he essentially uses cognitive dissonance to trick a nemesis into becoming a trusted associate.
nehor90210 ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 17:06:50 on December 24, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Was that the one about how he'd convince them to do him a favor, like lending him a book? It's hard to hate someone you're also doing favors for, I guess.
Yonefi ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 19:25:40 on December 24, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Thatโs exactly right.
It creates cognitive dissonance.
On one hand I donโt like this dude, on the other I loaned him my rare and expensive book.
Why would I do something nice for someone I hate.
That doesnโt make sense, therefore one of the most be false.
Well I clearly loaned him the book therefore I most not actually hate him.
grove_doubter ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 18:00:44 on December 24, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
If you have a ref for this Iโd love to read it.
Yonefi ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 19:25:28 on December 24, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Itโs in a chapter in a great read called โYou are now less dumb.โ Seriously check out a copy from your library. It was a book, that when reading it by chance during my transition, that really helped me out of the church. Itโs chapter 3
grove_doubter ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:02:00 on December 24, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Are you referring to his Autobiography?
_thefutureisnow ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 04:37:51 on December 25, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
It looks like he's referring to a book by David McRaney - the same guy who does the You are not so Smart podcast.
Yonefi ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 17:46:47 on December 25, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
So, the original story comes from Franklinโs autobiography (I wrote diary originally, but it was his autobiography). But I was referring to a brief explanation along with the psych and cognitive biases are detailed in the Ramsey book.
Word2daWise ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 15:06:56 on December 24, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I love that Ben Franklin quote! Thanks!
grove_doubter ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 15:08:22 on December 24, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Incredibly apt for LDS leadership, isn't it?
Word2daWise ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 15:10:53 on December 24, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
No kidding. And also for the MLM-mongers in the church, or the people who posture in ways to try to get "promoted," or the con-artists who set up investment scams. I met wonderful and good people in the church, but the ratio of oddballs and dishonest manipulators qualifies it for a "Ship of Fools" nomination.
AbeReagan ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 15:45:54 on December 24, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
They just really believed that the spirit would testify of truthfulness
CultZero ยท 438 points ยท Posted at 06:33:51 on December 24, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Actually tests the Spirit
Spirit fails the test
surprisedPikachu.jpg
Thethirdtoken ยท 28 points ยท Posted at 16:27:57 on December 24, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Elder, you didn't have enough faith to not feel the spirit, keep praying and paying your tithes.
Bigfoot_Cain ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 18:36:06 on December 24, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
There's ALWAYS a way to spin it!
Danyboyblue ยท 10 points ยท Posted at 18:13:38 on December 24, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Sounds like the whole district was masturbating and not praying hard enough.
WhoreoftheEarth ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 16:57:39 on December 24, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I guess I already had my doubts about the spirit then. If they had told me that all the investigators would have that experience I would've thought it was bull shit.
I remember always asking people about how they got their answer to know it was true and thinking a lot of them were weird and I didn't think they qualified as much of an answer or even a spiritual experience. That was one shelf item for me. Denying others spiritual experiences made me question why mine was any more valid than theirs.
Verdurous-Gearhulk ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 19:44:03 on December 24, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Hahaha, got a great chuckle outta me
beardeddragonborn ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 19:44:13 on December 24, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Oh perfect
AncientMaize ยท 108 points ยท Posted at 06:53:44 on December 24, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Mission leaders love to do gimmicky shit like that. It's how they show off THEIR supposed "faith." My favorite will always be telling to "never set our baptismal goal lower than our highest month of baptisms" (which directly contradicted the missionary guide).
Without realizing it, those morons were actually testing who would go along with leaders and who would challenge leaders.
๐๏ธ PascalsRiskAversion ยท 24 points ยท Posted at 07:29:30 on December 24, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
What does the missionary guide say about setting baptism goals? I forget
thrawn77 ยท 24 points ยท Posted at 09:58:06 on December 24, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I can't remember. Guess it was to keep things realistic?
But I was always vocal that it was pointless to set a goal. As it's not like anything you can do will change what your investigators want to do. But then again this may have been why I didn't baptise anyone.
[deleted] ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 16:51:39 on December 24, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
GuccciSocks ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 18:33:12 on December 24, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I was in Vancouver and would put 0. I was an AP at the time and the other APs got real mad haha
Seemseasy ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 16:38:44 on December 24, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
'Keep things realistic' does not sound like something the missionary organization I was in would get behind.
WhoreoftheEarth ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 17:01:42 on December 24, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
No they do that because otherwise missionaries, my self included, set goals that they feel inspired to achieve but they will never really reach. Then their logical brain thinks. Wait but I was inspired to set that goal but we didn't reach out. How did that happen? Was I really inspired?
Goldang ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 18:56:05 on December 24, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
In our mission, it was common for leaders to say, "A goal not written down is only a wish" when they wrote down the district goals each week.
I started saying, "writing a wish down doesn't make it a goal." Sadly, that didn't stop them from making unreasonable
wishesgoals.WhoreoftheEarth ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 17:04:30 on December 24, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I know! I was more a fan of set goals that are within your control and let the things that are not come as they will. I learned after my mission so many things that would've been so good on my mission from sales. Then I realized, oh I want doing service, I was just an unpaid salesman for TSCC.
Seemseasy ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 16:37:21 on December 24, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I recall PMG pushing for baptism commitment in the first discussion.
WhoreoftheEarth ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 17:05:31 on December 24, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Oh we took it to the next level and thought, we could challenge them in the first contact!
Goldang ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 18:56:35 on December 24, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Or even before you met them!
TW-RM ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 15:55:56 on December 24, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
That's what I thought. They actually expected people to oppose their leaders?? Was this the first day they had been Mormon?
Silver-creek ยท 69 points ยท Posted at 10:35:30 on December 24, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I remember on my mission I was teaching an investigator and I told her right then and there that we are going to pray and wait until we feel the spirit confirm the church is true right here right now.
We got on her knees and prayed and waited..and waited..and waited some more and nothing happened. It was pretty awkward. I was following the mission rules and everything.
beats_on_repeat ยท 19 points ยท Posted at 14:46:55 on December 24, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
We called this a Pray Now โข
choose_the_rice ยท 10 points ยท Posted at 16:42:41 on December 24, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I did this once but the difference was, I felt "The Spirit" emotions and our investigator did not. That was awkward.
WhoreoftheEarth ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 17:10:15 on December 24, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Yeah I hated the missionaries that taught my friend because she kept asking about God. She was athiest. And they were like pay right now and good will tell you the church is true. My super TBM self was like that's never going to work. She prayed, "um, God if you exist let me know the church is true and that you exist, I guess. " Then looked up at me and the missionaries and the stupid elder was like, so? And she just said so what I didn't feel anything. Then she told me after they left to never talk to her about church or God ever again. I'm glad the missionaries were stupid now that I'm out we can be friends again. Before that I couldn't handle having a conversation without talking to her about God.
BtroldedKallaMik ยท 47 points ยท Posted at 06:32:51 on December 24, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Wow, they had the balls to do that. Glad it backfired.
Sansabina ยท 37 points ยท Posted at 13:02:10 on December 24, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Fucking gold.
What did they expect from kids that had been raised from birth to trust and believe in every crazy idea that Joe Smith came up with.
ActualCase4 ยท 35 points ยท Posted at 10:51:21 on December 24, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Stupor of thought nicely describes the modus operandi of all APs and ZLs Iโve ever met.
GrayWalle ยท 22 points ยท Posted at 14:29:18 on December 24, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
The elevation emotion) is real, but it has zero ability to confirm truth.
seerstoners ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 15:43:12 on December 24, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Iโve been reading a lot about this since Bill Reel talked about it in his excommunication. Explains a lot!
bsee_xflds ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 22:11:35 on December 24, 2018 ยท (Permalink)*
An experience with Elevation emotion from FLDS cult. When Rulon Jeffs died I was limping into priesthood meeting with twisted ankle. I was asked directly, do you support Warren?โ The moment I said โyesโ the pain was gone and I walked the rest of the day without pain. That was a sign to me Warren was where it was at.
Edit: reading about elevation emotion on Google, Iโm not sure thatโs the right term for this. Probably just an adrenaline rush.
UFfan ยท 11 points ยท Posted at 12:28:32 on December 24, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
How did going home early work out for you?
Gatorfan
๐๏ธ PascalsRiskAversion ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 21:49:26 on December 24, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Mixed bag. In hindsight, I should have just gone to the beach every day and dared them to send me home. But then again, I wanted to show that by leaving early I was making a statement about how seriously I took my disbelief. Otherwise they could just chalk me up as lazy. It was only 2 months early fwiw
gvsurf ยท 10 points ยท Posted at 14:39:36 on December 24, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Thank you for that. Really. I still have moments when I wonder if โgood feelingsโ were actually some truth confirmation. They werenโt, thank Zeus
acuteot07 ยท 12 points ยท Posted at 15:44:06 on December 24, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I hate to do this but ๐
This is what happens when 20 year old virgins are forced to do nothing but church
thatgayguy12 ยท 10 points ยท Posted at 16:12:18 on December 24, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I remember being at a conference. We were all patiently awaiting the Prophet himself to come and sit down.
Then at one moment everyone stood up, my heart soared, I felt a flood of emotion that could only be described as the spirit! And in my mind I was saying, 'this is the spirit testifying that this is the Lords prophet!'
But false alarm, the prophet wasn't coming, so after a few minutes of everyone realizing that the prophet wasn't coming out yet we all sat down...
That dug at my testimony a bit...
WhoreoftheEarth ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 17:15:45 on December 24, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Yeah this would be more fun to do then yelling opposed at general conference. Just have a bunch of people stand up and look forward where the prophet is supposed to come in then watch as the rest of the sheep follow.
ray-payola ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 22:18:58 on December 24, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Adding to this, I would love to see The Wave at conference in my lifetime.
Scousette ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 13:07:00 on December 24, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
'Burning in the bosom'? Isn't that indigestion??
RealDaddyTodd ยท 13 points ยท Posted at 13:21:46 on December 24, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Acid reflux. Take an omeprazole.
Sage0wl ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 13:43:14 on December 24, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Hilarious!
ruffkillahkess ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 15:03:33 on December 24, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
All โThe Spiritโ is, is emotivism. Thatโs it. Mormons basing their morals and beliefs off the way things, and other Mormons, make them feel.
seerstoners ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 17:48:05 on December 24, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
You make a great point. Elevation emotion is also a huge psychological tool of the church. Itโs literally a burning in the bosom and positive emotional swelling sensation caused hormonally when we perceive of or imagine a good deed or act of kindness. The problem is that you can create this elevation emotional state even when you lie to them or presented a completely false representation of a good deed.
WhoreoftheEarth ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 17:13:06 on December 24, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
And basing their big life decisions on their feelings. It ducked with my head enough that I finally got out to get away from the "spirit"
CorporateSoleless ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 15:44:17 on December 24, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
The spirit doesn't matter. The LDS church teaches that when someone in authority over you tells you to do something then it is the same as God telling you to do it. No questions asked. No explanations given. No apologies made.
Your own moral compass or critical thinking skills are irrelevant.
Broofturker71 ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 13:29:35 on December 24, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Whoa! Brilliant.
SLC_Ghostwriter ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 17:17:35 on December 24, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I remember a day where I saw what I assumed was a couple sitting on their porch and felt "inspired" to tract at their house. Turned out they weren't a couple and were very much not interested. A day or so later I joked to my companion (he was one of the good ones) "Hey elder, remember that time the spirit deceived me?" and it became our running joke anytime we got a door slammed in our face.
microsuperman ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 19:06:48 on December 24, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
This reminds me of Holland's talk wrong road or something like that. I forget the title.
Where Holland pretty much says that "the spirit" can and will lie to you. But for your own good. As long as you can twist it to mean the church is true.
Teandcum ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 15:28:09 on December 24, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
The APs didn't feel the spirit because they weren't following the mission rules enough. /s
acuteot07 ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 15:44:31 on December 24, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
They must have been masturbating for sure
echofar ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 16:59:13 on December 24, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Well shit. This story makes me want to rejoin the church and do this in sunday school.
PatientConcern ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 17:59:22 on December 24, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Supposedly there was a similar incident in my mission before I arrived. During a zone conference, one of the APs got up and solemnly announced that word had just come down from Salt Lake that the practice of polygamy was being reinstated. A hush fell over the room. One missionary known to be a brown-noser got up and bore his testimony about how excited he was to have the opportunity to follow living prophets. Another, who was known to be a horn dog, said how excited he was to have the opportunity to marry additional women. The AP who made the announcement walked over to this elder and started yanking his leg and said, "See what I'm doing here, Elder?"
It wouldn't surprise me if there was some Mission President training where they were encouraged by Salt Lake to do something like this. I don't see any way my MP would have gone for it otherwise. He was Norman Hancock's SP in Arizona and the person who's probably most responsible for the reason we have the ability to resign our membership today and not ask to be excommunicated.
AllByMyZelph ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 15:10:16 on December 24, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Prima facie evidence that the Mormon church is a cult.
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 17:20:35 on December 24, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Conformity wins out over rationality. Duh.
Goldang ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 18:53:51 on December 24, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
It's really quite simple.
The elders all felt The Spiritโข because their leaders (the APs) gave them direction, and you are always supposed to sustain your leaders, even if the leader is wrong. So The Spiritโข confirmed to the elders that they should do the wrong thing.
Verdurous-Gearhulk ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 19:43:48 on December 24, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Oh man, this is the fucking best. I love this story.
Numsuccles ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 20:11:04 on December 24, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
One time our AP's , during ZC training, gave each group a picture of Christ in the Red Robe then instructed us to tear it up and walk all over the pieces. This was to teach us about what we were doing if we didn't work hard or something. Quite the wake up call.
whipofgodtofriends ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 20:28:55 on December 24, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Hahaha thanks for the laughter!!! Hee hee hee
bsee_xflds ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 22:19:54 on December 24, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Is there evolutionary value to trusting our emotions and hunches?
๐๏ธ PascalsRiskAversion ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 23:32:58 on December 24, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Sure is! But like anything of value it can be used to manipulate and exploit others.
kevinrex ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 23:49:52 on December 24, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Oops, how do you spell "backfired". Those AP's made a bet on common sense, but the Church is built on "obedience" being the first law of heaven. So of course they'll OBEY what HQ says!
kevinrex ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 23:50:40 on December 24, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Excellent story, u/PascalsRiskAversion Mind if I ask where this occurred, which mission? Just curious to see if it was a foreign area or not.
๐๏ธ PascalsRiskAversion ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 02:27:37 on December 25, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Vina del Mar, Chile, 98-2000
badcatjack ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 04:05:32 on December 25, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
How did the APโs think this wouldnโt be a problem? They presented this to a group that has been beaten into obedience.
maltosekincaid ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 05:13:45 on December 25, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
A few young dudes + negligible life experience = this
GordonBWrinkly ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 16:59:56 on December 24, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
This is a great illustration of the power of suggestion in feeling "the Spirit." In this case because it supposedly came from church HQ, and the APs primed them with the right questions about feeling the spirit, they felt it (or at least they said they felt it).
Al-Rei ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 17:34:14 on December 24, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Maybe everyone in that room was worthy enough to feeling the confirmation of an untrue and by NOT feeling the Spirit confirm that it wasnโt true they can know the truth by later realizing they canโt differentiate the BS from the BS haha
cloistered_around ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 18:39:09 on December 24, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
So kids who have been trained to believe and obey pretty much anything a higher up told them to do did just that--and the leaders were surprised?
Seems to me like they just wanted to make a scapegoat of some poor missionary and let all the others feel superior for "getting it right." Backfired awfully.
StartingAnew123 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:44:34 on December 24, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
This. I feel like this concept is the single biggest one that holds the church together and would just as quickly break it apart.
Chrysop5 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 00:07:55 on December 25, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Lol! They unintentionally disproved the "truth test" of TSCC.
tripmcneely_alright ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 00:15:30 on December 25, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Brings back memories of missionaries getting all gimmicky to try to woo the mission president. Classic
Crazybluecat ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 16:20:31 on December 24, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Hee hee, I thought the same about some people, "how in the world did they get to go to the temple"?