I wonder how your family would have responded if you had asked " what do you think of this quote from Bill Cosby?"
Then, after they gave their "Ooo, that's so creepy" replies, you had said "Oh. Oops. My bad, that was Elder Ballard. Sorry. Anyway, what did you think of the quote, again? Remind me."
kevinrex ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 23:39:22 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Yes, try that next time with a creepy quote like one from Pres. Kimball about Lamanites turning white and delightsome in the INdian Placement Program. Speaking as a man.
makjae ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 20:20:17 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
๐๐๐๐
sunkist82 ยท 63 points ยท Posted at 19:21:57 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
This quote disgusts me every time I see it! What a disgusting pig.
[deleted] ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 01:56:18 on December 18, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted] ยท -33 points ยท Posted at 19:55:25 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Why is it disgusting to encourage men and women to present themselves in a way that is pleasing to the other sex?
RuhRose ยท 10 points ยท Posted at 00:14:21 on December 18, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
He's not just encouraging "men and women to present themselves in a way that is pleasing to the other sex". He's belittling those who choose not to wear makeup for whatever reason, saying that they would be beautiful with lipstick, but without, they look like men. How others choose to present themselves is none of his business. Perhaps he's attracted to lipstick, not all men are. My husband HATES it. Just because that's how you prefer others to look, doesn't give you a right to ask for it or judge others for not meeting it.
[deleted] ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 00:17:22 on December 18, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Yeah, I get it now. Thanks for your comment. There are deep threads below where I try to understand it all.
[deleted] ยท 18 points ยท Posted at 21:27:07 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Because women are being told their real face isn't good enough. It's one thing to look neat and clean and wear attractive clothes, but telling someone they need to put paint on their face is sending a sick message. So my advice to Ballard re: lipstick. You first. Or better yet, put some tape over that mouth. It's not too complicated, and very pleasing.
[deleted] ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 21:29:42 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
How should women who avoid makeup compete for the attention of men with other women who wear makeup?
[deleted] ยท 14 points ยท Posted at 22:37:31 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Here is the second instance of you twisting things up.
Deepythoughts never brought up women not wearing makeup pursuing men. You did.
You made this a competition.
You assumed women wanted to pursue men and that lipstick makes them better at gaining male attention. Not always true.
You completely avoided Deepythoughts' main point: that advising lipstick is reifying patriarchal capitalist beauty standards, and that it is applied unequally and unfairly. Men don't have to wear lipstick.
Gotcha question #2 -- are you really looking to be taught how to flirt with men and dress attractively without makeup? Are you really asking us to share how we seduce people bare-face? No? Then it's not an honest question. It's a question with the assumption that it's impossible and that makeup is a necessary evil, therefore Bednar's just being helpful.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:45:33 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I am trying to translate this into a reference frame that I will understand. Men compete for the attention of women, and I assumed that women to the same for men. Not saying that is always true, just asking from a frame that I can relate to.
As far as "patriarchal capitalist beauty standards", I don't know what to say. I respond to what my brain considers beautiful in an involuntary fashion.
I'm not asking "gotcha" questions here.
[deleted] ยท 10 points ยท Posted at 22:58:18 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Yes, people compete for sexual partners. But not all women are competing for men. Some women want female attention, some women want no attention at all, some women only want the attention of their spouse.
Again, the issue is a religious leader telling women to wear makeup from a podium.
Diving into his word choice, "be a little charming" has a lot of undertones to it. The charming is for everyone's benefit. He's not telling them to put on lipstick and flirt at a stake dance. He's saying that should be an ambient part of their lives.
His tone and word choice are basically telling women to be pretty for everyone. Aka, be better decorations.
Some of that is subtext, which can be harder to understand.
These are much more honest questions. Before were definitely gotcha questions.
[deleted] ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 23:01:09 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Not trolling you here. REALLY. I'm glad for what you have written, and appreciate the thought that went into it.
I was never asking gotcha questions. If we were sitting across from each other, you could have seen that, but text is a limiting communication medium.
[deleted] ยท 10 points ยท Posted at 22:08:54 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I get plenty of male attention bare faced. I wear lipstick when I want to be left alone because it makes me look older and bitchier in an ice-queen sort of way. Also, you are making people defend never wearing makeup when what we are all saying is that for a spiritual leader to get up on a platform and tell women to wear makeup is sickening. That's his spiritual advice. Put pigment on your face to simulate the look of orgasm (that's the original purpose of lipstick) in order to please the men.
Quit sea lioning.
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 22:15:04 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
What is "sea lioning"? I haven't hear of that.
[deleted] ยท 13 points ยท Posted at 22:22:41 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Basically maintaining this overly civil demeanor while persistently requesting proof or evidence of really obvious stuff.
It's obvious to anyone that a spiritual leader telling women from the pulpit to wear lipstick to look pleasant to men is messed up and misogynistic.
You're flipping the script, changing the goalposts of the argument, while being all polite about it so we feel bad about not giving you more and more and more proof and evidence and explanations.
You win if we get mad. You win if we get tired of providing every new burden of proof you place on us. You win if we disengage.
There is no way for us to win because you'll keep moving the goalposts.
It's manipulative and bad logic. Stop.
Anna3254 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 22:29:00 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
๐๐ผ๐๐ผ
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:36:45 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
How would you recommend that I make an honest question, so as to avoid the appearance of Sea Lioning?
[deleted] ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 23:00:45 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
"Is this a request for information or setting up a debate because I think people are over-reacting?"
Example:
What are your reasons behind saying "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas"? I've never really thought about it.
Instead of this:
Why do you have a problem with people wishing others a Merry Christmas? I'm being honest here, I really want to know. (no you don't)
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:04:41 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Just something to consider. I didn't set anything up for debate. I didn't make any claim, except to state the perspective that I was coming from and how that perspective limited my understanding. This limited understanding informed my questions.
No where in the entire thread did I say someone was wrong. If I disagreed, I kept it to myself.
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 23:08:29 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
OK done.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:08:55 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Cool.
[deleted] ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 22:27:29 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I'm not trying to "win". I am trying to understand. Some men are trying to understand what women go through in the church. I have asked sincere questions in a respectful manner. I haven't flipped any script. I am just trying to understand. Some folks have helped with thoughtful replies, for which I am grateful.
I honestly don't know what you mean by moving any goalposts. I have made no claims, but have only asked questions, in an effort to understand. I mean you no hostility.
[deleted] ยท 10 points ยท Posted at 22:41:54 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)*
And here is more "sea lioning".
You aren't asking honest questions. You are asking gotcha questions. I went back and added where they were gotcha questions.
If you were trying to understand, you would ask, "Can you explain why being told to wear makeup feels demeaning? I've never worn makeup and don't understand your perspective".
You never once asked anything remotely approaching this. All your questions were clever questions with underlying assumptions that leave no winning option.
So, now that I've done a close reading on this entire comment thread, offered you resources to educate yourself, did a rhetorical analysis on your entire M.O. here, and suggested more helpful questions that a person who honestly wanted to learn would use, there are a few options:
You copy and paste my example question, it gets answered, but we all know that's being a smart ass and you trying to win malicious compliance style.
You digest my example question and come up with a new one in your own words and actually listen to the responses you get without more gotcha questions.
You ask another gotcha question.
You say nothing.
At any rate, I've indulged this long enough. Do what you want. If you can't see how Bednar's remark was just disgusting, then I don't know what to say.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:54:37 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Can you explain why being told to wear makeup feels demeaning? I've never worn makeup and don't understand your perspective.
Not trying to be clever here. I'm not asking gotcha questions. The user laineypc just now gave me a great insight.
I'm not sure how you arrived at what my assumptions are.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:29:13 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Also, what may be "really obvious stuff" to you may not be so obvious to me. Would you prefer that I misunderstand you?
[deleted] ยท 10 points ยท Posted at 22:37:59 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
It's obvious to every human on the planet that telling women to wear lipstick is rude.
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 22:42:06 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
It wasn't obvious to me. I was often given advice on how to appeal to women.
laineypc ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 21:32:38 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
By being who they are and not worrying about men who are looking for women who wear makeup?
[deleted] ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 21:40:33 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Have you found that to be effective?
Comparing it to the male perspective, because that may help me to understand, can I offer a comparison? Men are expected to approach women (women almost never invite men on dates). Should men who don't care for this convention just sit back and wait for women to approach? Would this be effective for them to keep things how they (these men) would prefer them?
laineypc ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 22:09:19 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I found it effective to leave the church where no boy would date me because I was not conventionally attractive and because I didn't understand how they didn't seem to appreciate my many fine qualities. Life on the outside was much better in that regard.
I don't know what would be effective for men who want women to chase them. I do know that sitting back and waiting for anything in life is not a good strategy, you have to use the bait that attracts the fish you like.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:13:53 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
That's a helpful insight. I have been trying to understand women's perspectives, but it's hard when my inquiries are met with hostility (not talking about you, personally).
[deleted] ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 21:42:34 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Also, I really don't think men notice who is wearing makeup. We just respond to those we find attractive; it's involuntary. Do you think that women who wear makeup know this, and exploit it in men?
I have never picked a partner based on how awesome her face looks wearing make up. I've dated women based on personality, their kick ass ability on skis/climbing gear/bikes, compassion, drive, and kindness. Good looks and attraction are an awesome bonus, especially in a long term relationship. However, I would never presume to tell my partner how to appear to others to be more "pleasing" to me or anyone else. Advice like this is the spiritual equivalent of cat-calling and should be called out no matter who says it.
[deleted] ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 04:29:57 on December 18, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I agree that this kind of comment was offensive coming from who it did. That being said, the magazine stands are full of articles on women improving their personal appearance. I didn't understand the disconnect until someone finally answered what I was asking, rather than trying to read between the lines, looking for an agenda.
Comments like that yours, "that being said..." About women's mags are why people keep assuming you have some douchey agenda. It doesn't come off as genuine discussion, but just a defensive "I hear you, but you're wrong." Women's articles don't have the same impact on LDS women's lives as a member of the Q15. It's not just comparing apples and oranges, and it's apples and rocks. One set is a bunch of shallow magazines targeted towards fashion and selling make-up. Of course they're going to show new products and think up ways to sell their product. The other is a supposed prophet, inspired to lift up the church members. You expect stupid, product and sexist driven bullshit from the magazines, not the so-called man of god. There is no disconnect.
[deleted] ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 04:53:53 on December 18, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
The phrase "that being said" is a shorthand for "looking in a broader context which may or not be relevant to my point". Is there another phrase that I should use that would not sound legalistic or pretentious?
I have not said that anyone is wrong, nor anywhere else in this entire topic. When I disagreed, I kept it to myself.
[deleted] ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 04:56:28 on December 18, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
At the risk of causing greater offense, I feel like even though I genuinely wanted to understand, a certain cohort of commentators CHOSE to take offense, and pilloried me for making sincere inquiries. Only one person, laineypc, bothered to ACTUALLY ANSWER what I was asking. She helped me really get it. Most others just wanted someone to hate on.
"That being said" is a contradictory transition - used to directly contrast or counter something you've acknowledged already. Ex: I love apples. That being said, I almost never eat them
Here's how it reads to those of us "choosing" to take offense:
"The prophet shouldn't tell women how to wear makeup. That being said, women's mags occasionally DO tell women how to do it, so I can't tell the difference between the two."
Can you really not discern the different impact on a woman's life a cheap magazine and the leader of her spiritual connection to god would have on a woman of Faith's life? You acknowledge every answer given, and then keep making equivocations and qualifiers. It's those snarky comments that make everyone keep thinking you're being disingenuous and just trying to cause problems.
[deleted] ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 05:16:48 on December 18, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Yes, I get what you are saying. You are coming late to the conversation. I was describing for you, in retrospect, the issues that I was trying to walk through in understanding the controversy.
Consider: "My Danish colleague is a shorter guy. That being said, most Danes tend to be taller." That is an example of the context-broadening transition that I used, which I am explaining a second time.
What other clarifications could I make? I don't want to argue, and am not going to do so with you. That's not why I came to this thread.
Comparing short Dane's to tall Dane's, and liking apples but not eating them is a far cry from comparing a prophet to a fashion magazine. That's the disconnect we're all having, that you don't seem to grasp. It's not just different leagues of expectation and decorum, it's different planets. There isn't any broadened context that makes sense to compare a supposed prophet with a cheap fashion marketing machine.
[deleted] ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 05:24:11 on December 18, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Yes, I understand that now. (You're still down-voting.) Are you done now?
[deleted] ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 05:19:22 on December 18, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
And really classy there, you down-vote my replies directly to you (it tallies the same time your comment appears). I'm not down-voting yours.
[deleted] ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 23:13:36 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
He tells women that they look like men without makeup, that's just fucking insulting. It's all about what Ballard wants. I would agree with your comment in another context, but not with a pretty sexist quote from Ballard like this.
[deleted] ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 23:15:54 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
You are coming late to the discussion, but I get it now. Context that he has no experience as a woman. Just like a woman has no business telling a man what a "real man" is. I get it.
There are some deep threads here. I just wish someone would have walked me through it instead of treating me like some sort of attacker.
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 23:33:37 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Sorry, I am a bit late lol. I did feel bad for you watching the other commentors. That's the name of the game on reddit: downvote and attack first, ask questions later. I know how you feel, even on the exmo sub I'll get ripped apart asking a simple question without malice.
[deleted] ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 23:35:45 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Some folks here still have an us-versus-the-world attitude.
You can take the boy out of the cult, but you can't take the cult out of the boy.
[deleted] ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 23:44:22 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Because not everyone likes the opposite sex? Because not everyone is interested in intimacy at all? Because not everyone needs to be in โsave the human raceโ mode like endangered giraffes? Mainly because we arenโt going extinct any time soon and donโt have a need to have anyone put reproduction as their highest priority in which they would need to have good appearances to attract a mate??
Use some critical thinking skills. It really isnโt as exhausting as you may assume it is.
[deleted] ยท -12 points ยท Posted at 20:36:11 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I don't think the quote applies to everyone. We're all different. Could some find it useful? Sure they could. Should I be offended at sincere advice that I don't find useful for my lifestyle? (To be clear, I would not find such advice offensive or controversial.)
laineypc ยท 16 points ยท Posted at 21:46:24 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
When my daughter was in 3rd and 4th grade, she decided she wanted to wear makeup. I reluctantly agreed. We've made it a point not to emphasize looks, to emphasize relationships, interests, abilities, accomplishments, persistence, resilience, etc. She wanted to buy new make up almost every week. She tried all kinds of looks. Up until end of 4th grade, tried to be pretty, tried to compete.
Today my daughter is 11 and has decided she is nonbinary. Changed pronouns to they/them, changed their name to a boy's name, is pleased when someone reads them as male, is dreading puberty.
I don't know why this change happened when it did, but I worry that at some point they decided they could not make it as a girl, after trying all that make up and girly looks.
The message that girls and women ought to make themselves pleasing and conforming to men's and society's beauty standards which are unreachable for many, even with lipstick, is patriarchal and damaging.
I donโt know your child, but I do know that when someone is feeling that their gender identity doesnโt match what they were assigned at birth, often they will try hard to conform to their assigned gender before coming to terms with themselves, as a way of trying to fit in, meet expectations, or denial.
I do agree that beauty standards for women can be extremely damaging. Personally, itโs taken a lot for me to feel comfortable in my own skin without makeup. However, speaking as a faraway internet bystander, blaming your childโs gender journey on beauty standards and makeup and โnot being able to make t as a girlโ seems to disregard the validity of trans people as actually being what they say they are.
You go, non-binary kid! I hope you continue to have gender affirming experiences. Itโs a hard road that youโre on, but itโs absolutely worth it to live as truly yourself!
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 21:50:15 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Thanks for your heartfelt and informative reply.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 21:55:05 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Do you think that advice to hetero girls/women from a heteronormative perspective should be kept out of public view? Should beauty advice (for those who want such advice) be considered offensive by those who don't desire such advice?
laineypc ยท 10 points ยท Posted at 22:42:12 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I think all girls and women benefit from a more balanced weighting of the value of conventional physical beauty and the contrivances being sold to us in trying to attain the unattainable. For those who are naturally and exceptionally physically attractive, they also have burdens imposed by this unhealthy emphasis, as well as unearned opportunities and advantages.
Why did this old man decide this advice about looks was at all useful to women? Why not say "ladies, believe in yourselves, you can do great things" "take care of yourself, if mama ain't happy, ain't nobody happy"... something. We know about lipstick already. We got that figured out. Trust us.
[deleted] ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 22:51:03 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I get that point. I sometimes found it offensive when a woman presumes to tell me what a "real man" is. As if she had ever been a man and had the pressures that men endure. From that standpoint, I can see why his comment was offensive.
I'm a bit surprised that it has taken so long for this simple point to be made. It's all I was looking for, instead of hostility for asking the question.
I have female siblings that are very pretty, everyone of them with great bodies, I have been told I'm pretty (female)... maybe it's because we won a genetic lottery in looks. I don't know, everyone has their own taste.
BOTH my parents (never mo) ALWAYS emphasized education, kindness, inclusion of all, defending the unwanted/underdog. Looking "pretty" NEVER made the list or was in the discussion.
Sure, you can put lipstick on, etc (I rarely wear make up)... my looks or lack are genetic...I didn't do anything...
My education/intelligence, kindness, morals are what make me me...and I can and did earn and work to gain them. If I have to look good to catch a mate..f#ck that. They should see me (the internal me). The outside gets old, wrinkles, gravity, etc.
So an apostle advice about looking pretty is not helpful, it's harmful, and really shows what HE as a male human non divinely inspired values.
[deleted] ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 23:23:42 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Yeah, I get that now. (lots of other discussion before your comment)
Probably neither men nor women should comment on the challenges of the other sex. There is too much room for misunderstanding.
laineypc ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 01:10:32 on December 18, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I think the hostility is coming from a sense that you are trying a bit of a hijack the topic to get to your agenda, which seems to be your feeling that there are double standards- it's ok that women can presume to tell men how to be men, but it's not ok for men to tell women how to be women. Since we're all exMos here, perhaps we can agree that we're glad we don't have to listen to people we used to trust with "spiritual authority" over our lives and that today we find their pronouncements no longer relevant, at best.
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 04:27:46 on December 18, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I agree that it's great that we don't take arguments from authority here. I certainly don't.
I didn't have an agenda beyond (genuinely) trying to understand what all the fuss was about. It wasn't until very late in the conversation that I understood that it was the context of the statement and the presumption of the speak that was offensive. You, Laineypc, were the one who eventually made that clear. You were the only one who actually answered what I asked, rather than trying to read between the lines. I tried to speak clearly, and you were the only one who heard me clearly.
[deleted] ยท 9 points ยท Posted at 22:35:22 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)*
Here is the first instance of you moving the goalposts.
Bednar says: Put on a little lipstick.
Sunkist says: this quote disgusts me.
You say: why is it disgusting to encourage men and women to present themselves in a way that is pleasing to the other sex?
That's not what Bednar said, and that's not what Sunkist said.
Bednar was talking to women. He told them specifically to wear lipstick and look a little charming. He doesn't tell men to wear cosmetics or to try to be charming. He is telling women to charm men, as a spiritual authority.
Sunkist was expressing revulsion at the speech act here: a spiritual authority using an imperative to tell women to wear makeup and charm men.
You twisted Bednar's words to include men, and Sunkist's words to make it look like she was disgusted at reasonable advice.
Gotcha question #1
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:47:57 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Right. I am trying to understand, form a male perspective, what women would find offensive about that. I was oftenly (and currently) told how to change my behavior, appearance, etc to appeal to women. I wanted to understand why advising women in that way would be offensive.
[deleted] ยท 10 points ยท Posted at 22:54:53 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
They told you things like shower, don't smell bad, wear colors that look nice on you, tuck in a shirt.
Telling women to wear lipstick is telling them that 1. Their face isn't okay as is after basic grooming, and 2. That they need to sexualize themselves.
Which, yeah, wearing lipstick can be sexy. It's completely inappropriate for a religious leader to tell his congregation to be more sexy. It's similar to Michael Scott suggesting someone to undo their top blouse button.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:56:04 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I agree with that.
[deleted] ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 23:04:04 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:08:09 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Trying from my perspective, I do find it offensive when women proffer opinions on what constitutes manhood of "healthy masculinity". So I can see why his comment was offensive. It wasn't the advice as much as the presumption on his part. Would you say this is close to correct?
Thanks for laying it out for me.
[deleted] ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 23:27:44 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:30:36 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Thanks again for laying it out. I learned something today.
I wish the other commentators had your kind attitude and patience.
Manungal ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 00:41:19 on December 18, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
If YouTube makeup tutorials are any indication, the average teen today wears more makeup than early 2000's drag queens.
Hell, it was a right of passage to wear foundation 3 shades too dark. If your face and your neck are the same ethnicity, will they even let you in highschool?
For those that don't understand, it is sexist because it's one sided and reinforces the idea that women are only valued for appearance. Did he have appearance tips for the brethren? Didn't think so.
I rarely wear makeup. On another note, when I read what the OP posted I kept thinking about the times I've been asked to smile.
5thNephi ยท 20 points ยท Posted at 20:23:10 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
reminds me of the time Faust said something to women who maybe thought of themselves as unattractive, encouraging them to wear makeup - "even and old barn looks better with a fresh coat of paint" -
adriyo ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 00:00:23 on December 18, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Oh I had heard that when cosmetics started to become more popular the prophet at the time said that. Either way, that's fucked up and whoever said that can fuck right off.
๐๏ธ heckisme ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 20:23:32 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Yikes I remember hearing that
GoGo_MAE ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 01:13:05 on December 18, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
If itโs that simple, you put on some fucking makeup Ballard
So sexist. I never heard general authorities tell the bros that they are looking a little too girly lately and need to spray on a little more Old Spice (or whatever it is men do to be more manly)
gwynrose ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 08:58:46 on December 18, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
During family scripture time?? Jesus fucking Christ, I highly doubt Christ gave a shit about a womanโs appearance!! Oh wait, they subconsciously worship joseph smith... actually heโd fuck anyone in the name of the Lord so that argument falls apart. Theyโre just sexist and control freaks.
๐๏ธ heckisme ยท 17 points ยท Posted at 18:59:24 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Youโd be surprised. They laughed and thought it was cute. I was bamboozled and didnโt know how to respond to that, because to me the sexism is so apparent.
The church teaches that women are subordinate to men so it makes sense that you feel that way.
[deleted] ยท -17 points ยท Posted at 19:56:59 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Why is this controversial? Why not encourage men and women to present themselves in a way that pleases the opposite sex?
Would you find it offensive to advise men to spend time talking with and listening to women? What about advice on a man's appearance?
๐๏ธ heckisme ยท 19 points ยท Posted at 20:04:05 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Why should women be obligated to wear something that changes their appearance?
The fact that you think saying women SHOULD wear make up is equivalent to โtalking with and listening to womenโ is so incoherent that Iโm not sure I can have a productive conversation with you.
They might have been using satire. Some people use an odd sense of humor thatโs almost indistinguishable from their personal beliefs. They included men in there too.
Or they really think men and especially women should present themselves solely to appeal to the opposite sex, in which I totally agree with you. Women should be able to look and dress for themselves without being judged for it, no matter how they choose to appear, although Iโd hope it includes proper hygiene if theyโre in a place to afford it.
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 20:29:59 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I didn't say, nor do I think, that people should behave SOLELY to appeal to the opposite sex. (Should I really have to make such a legalistic statement in a discussion?)
I think women are and should be free to do as they will. If they WANT to appeal to men, there are certainly practices that will help them in that regard. Why should advice to that end be considered offensive or controversial? (I get it, some women dislike men and have no interest in them. For women who want to appeal to men, they may value such advice.)
๐๏ธ heckisme ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:23:08 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I sure hope theyโre joking lol, & I agree with your hygiene point
[deleted] ยท -9 points ยท Posted at 20:26:00 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I don't think anyone is obliged to do anything like that. There is a BIG difference between saying that you SHOULD do something and saying that you MUST do something. Do you think that men should do nothing for their appearance to appeal to women?
Not all men like to talk about things like women do, but encouraging them to do so will help them socialize with and relate to women in a way that appeals to women. Why is this controversial?
๐๏ธ heckisme ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 21:02:33 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Yep, I think men should present how they want. Beard? Cool! No beard? Nice! It literally isnโt my business. Clothing too, people should dress how they like.
[deleted] ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 21:13:02 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Do you think that there are things that men can do that, in general, that would improve the way women see them, and make them more appealing to women? Not saying universally, just generally. Would that kind of advice be controversial, let alone "offensive"? Or do you find the tastes of (most, not all) men offensive?
๐๏ธ heckisme ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 23:54:16 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
โDonโt wander around looking like menโ Is not helpful advice, itโs an abrasive order. From an authority figure in the church.
[deleted] ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 23:59:52 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
And also a healthy dose of presumption that he was the right one to deliver the "advice".
๐๏ธ heckisme ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 00:02:02 on December 18, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Do you think women without lipstick look like men? Do women with glop on their faces appeal more to all men? If so what's wrong with men that they have to have a woman all glopped up in order to find her attractive?
The controversy and offense arise from (among other things) the following issues:
1. The quote objectifies women. The sentence prior to the OP's quote tells the man-folk to wake up and look around. This is immediately followed by the "you beautiful girls" bit. This quote teaches that men are to act (look) and women are to be acted upon (be looked at) and should make sure they are properly prepared to be acted upon (lipstick). It's frankly sickening.
2. Ballard had just addressed the "problem" of porn. This frames the quote in the context of objectifying women and, consequently, creepifies the quote into a not-so-subtle support for rape culture.
3. The fact that a super-annuated man with "authority" - whose ancestors and religious tradition celebrated polygynous relations between old men and young women - is the one telling women that they need to make themselves pretty for men to eye-rape them is beyond disgusting. It's the fetid icing on the shit-show cake.
I could go on, but I think I'll leave it at that. If you still can't understand how or why the quote is offensive, I recommend that you should take a course or two from a womens-studies professor at a reputable university (e.g., not BYU).
[deleted] ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 22:16:50 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Thanks for your thoughtful and detailed reply. It's very informative.
[deleted] ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 20:23:19 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Wow! I must have hit a nerve. So many down-votes, but no replies.
And getting a "fuck you" instead of being told why your opinion is wrong is another favorite of mime.
[deleted] ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 21:57:01 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I try really, really hard to be respectful and considerate. Even when I ask sincere questions, like here, trying to learn something, people respond with name-calling. It's discouraging.
You can't be truly considerate(gatekeeping! gatekeeping! JK, I only cite fallacies ironically) in anyone's eyes when your question is challenging in nature. It goes both ways mind you and is a hard mindset to break, especially if you're fresh out of a culture that has molded you to think that way that way in order to protect the system/ideals.
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 04:31:29 on December 18, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Yeah, I see that now. As I mentioned in another thread, many users on this board have an us-versus-the-world mindset.
You can take the boy out of the cult, but you can't take the cult out of the boy.
Anna3254 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 22:35:01 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
๐ป look! I found the worlds smallest violin and itโs playing just for you!
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 22:48:41 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Thanks for that. Some other commentators are providing great insight.
Saved comment
AhenobarbusTextor ยท 97 points ยท Posted at 19:54:32 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I wonder how your family would have responded if you had asked " what do you think of this quote from Bill Cosby?" Then, after they gave their "Ooo, that's so creepy" replies, you had said "Oh. Oops. My bad, that was Elder Ballard. Sorry. Anyway, what did you think of the quote, again? Remind me."
kevinrex ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 23:39:22 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Yes, try that next time with a creepy quote like one from Pres. Kimball about Lamanites turning white and delightsome in the INdian Placement Program. Speaking as a man.
makjae ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 20:20:17 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
๐๐๐๐
sunkist82 ยท 63 points ยท Posted at 19:21:57 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
This quote disgusts me every time I see it! What a disgusting pig.
[deleted] ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 01:56:18 on December 18, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
https://imgur.com/a/0oCCDKg
sunkist82 ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 04:30:39 on December 18, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Yup. Still a pig!
[deleted] ยท -33 points ยท Posted at 19:55:25 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Why is it disgusting to encourage men and women to present themselves in a way that is pleasing to the other sex?
RuhRose ยท 10 points ยท Posted at 00:14:21 on December 18, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
He's not just encouraging "men and women to present themselves in a way that is pleasing to the other sex". He's belittling those who choose not to wear makeup for whatever reason, saying that they would be beautiful with lipstick, but without, they look like men. How others choose to present themselves is none of his business. Perhaps he's attracted to lipstick, not all men are. My husband HATES it. Just because that's how you prefer others to look, doesn't give you a right to ask for it or judge others for not meeting it.
[deleted] ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 00:17:22 on December 18, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Yeah, I get it now. Thanks for your comment. There are deep threads below where I try to understand it all.
[deleted] ยท 18 points ยท Posted at 21:27:07 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Because women are being told their real face isn't good enough. It's one thing to look neat and clean and wear attractive clothes, but telling someone they need to put paint on their face is sending a sick message. So my advice to Ballard re: lipstick. You first. Or better yet, put some tape over that mouth. It's not too complicated, and very pleasing.
[deleted] ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 21:29:42 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
How should women who avoid makeup compete for the attention of men with other women who wear makeup?
[deleted] ยท 14 points ยท Posted at 22:37:31 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Here is the second instance of you twisting things up.
Gotcha question #2 -- are you really looking to be taught how to flirt with men and dress attractively without makeup? Are you really asking us to share how we seduce people bare-face? No? Then it's not an honest question. It's a question with the assumption that it's impossible and that makeup is a necessary evil, therefore Bednar's just being helpful.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:45:33 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I am trying to translate this into a reference frame that I will understand. Men compete for the attention of women, and I assumed that women to the same for men. Not saying that is always true, just asking from a frame that I can relate to.
As far as "patriarchal capitalist beauty standards", I don't know what to say. I respond to what my brain considers beautiful in an involuntary fashion.
I'm not asking "gotcha" questions here.
[deleted] ยท 10 points ยท Posted at 22:58:18 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Yes, people compete for sexual partners. But not all women are competing for men. Some women want female attention, some women want no attention at all, some women only want the attention of their spouse.
Again, the issue is a religious leader telling women to wear makeup from a podium.
Diving into his word choice, "be a little charming" has a lot of undertones to it. The charming is for everyone's benefit. He's not telling them to put on lipstick and flirt at a stake dance. He's saying that should be an ambient part of their lives.
His tone and word choice are basically telling women to be pretty for everyone. Aka, be better decorations.
Some of that is subtext, which can be harder to understand.
These are much more honest questions. Before were definitely gotcha questions.
[deleted] ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 23:01:09 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Not trolling you here. REALLY. I'm glad for what you have written, and appreciate the thought that went into it.
I was never asking gotcha questions. If we were sitting across from each other, you could have seen that, but text is a limiting communication medium.
[deleted] ยท 10 points ยท Posted at 22:08:54 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I get plenty of male attention bare faced. I wear lipstick when I want to be left alone because it makes me look older and bitchier in an ice-queen sort of way. Also, you are making people defend never wearing makeup when what we are all saying is that for a spiritual leader to get up on a platform and tell women to wear makeup is sickening. That's his spiritual advice. Put pigment on your face to simulate the look of orgasm (that's the original purpose of lipstick) in order to please the men.
Quit sea lioning.
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 22:15:04 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
What is "sea lioning"? I haven't hear of that.
[deleted] ยท 13 points ยท Posted at 22:22:41 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning
Basically maintaining this overly civil demeanor while persistently requesting proof or evidence of really obvious stuff.
It's obvious to anyone that a spiritual leader telling women from the pulpit to wear lipstick to look pleasant to men is messed up and misogynistic.
You're flipping the script, changing the goalposts of the argument, while being all polite about it so we feel bad about not giving you more and more and more proof and evidence and explanations.
You win if we get mad. You win if we get tired of providing every new burden of proof you place on us. You win if we disengage.
There is no way for us to win because you'll keep moving the goalposts.
It's manipulative and bad logic. Stop.
Anna3254 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 22:29:00 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
๐๐ผ๐๐ผ
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:36:45 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
How would you recommend that I make an honest question, so as to avoid the appearance of Sea Lioning?
[deleted] ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 23:00:45 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
"Is this a request for information or setting up a debate because I think people are over-reacting?"
Example:
What are your reasons behind saying "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas"? I've never really thought about it.
Instead of this:
Why do you have a problem with people wishing others a Merry Christmas? I'm being honest here, I really want to know. (no you don't)
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:04:41 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Just something to consider. I didn't set anything up for debate. I didn't make any claim, except to state the perspective that I was coming from and how that perspective limited my understanding. This limited understanding informed my questions.
No where in the entire thread did I say someone was wrong. If I disagreed, I kept it to myself.
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 23:08:29 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
OK done.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:08:55 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Cool.
[deleted] ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 22:27:29 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I'm not trying to "win". I am trying to understand. Some men are trying to understand what women go through in the church. I have asked sincere questions in a respectful manner. I haven't flipped any script. I am just trying to understand. Some folks have helped with thoughtful replies, for which I am grateful.
I honestly don't know what you mean by moving any goalposts. I have made no claims, but have only asked questions, in an effort to understand. I mean you no hostility.
[deleted] ยท 10 points ยท Posted at 22:41:54 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)*
And here is more "sea lioning".
You aren't asking honest questions. You are asking gotcha questions. I went back and added where they were gotcha questions.
If you were trying to understand, you would ask, "Can you explain why being told to wear makeup feels demeaning? I've never worn makeup and don't understand your perspective".
You never once asked anything remotely approaching this. All your questions were clever questions with underlying assumptions that leave no winning option.
So, now that I've done a close reading on this entire comment thread, offered you resources to educate yourself, did a rhetorical analysis on your entire M.O. here, and suggested more helpful questions that a person who honestly wanted to learn would use, there are a few options:
You copy and paste my example question, it gets answered, but we all know that's being a smart ass and you trying to win malicious compliance style.
You digest my example question and come up with a new one in your own words and actually listen to the responses you get without more gotcha questions.
You ask another gotcha question.
You say nothing.
At any rate, I've indulged this long enough. Do what you want. If you can't see how Bednar's remark was just disgusting, then I don't know what to say.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:54:37 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Can you explain why being told to wear makeup feels demeaning? I've never worn makeup and don't understand your perspective.
Not trying to be clever here. I'm not asking gotcha questions. The user laineypc just now gave me a great insight.
I'm not sure how you arrived at what my assumptions are.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:29:13 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Also, what may be "really obvious stuff" to you may not be so obvious to me. Would you prefer that I misunderstand you?
[deleted] ยท 10 points ยท Posted at 22:37:59 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
It's obvious to every human on the planet that telling women to wear lipstick is rude.
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 22:42:06 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
It wasn't obvious to me. I was often given advice on how to appeal to women.
laineypc ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 21:32:38 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
By being who they are and not worrying about men who are looking for women who wear makeup?
[deleted] ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 21:40:33 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Have you found that to be effective?
Comparing it to the male perspective, because that may help me to understand, can I offer a comparison? Men are expected to approach women (women almost never invite men on dates). Should men who don't care for this convention just sit back and wait for women to approach? Would this be effective for them to keep things how they (these men) would prefer them?
laineypc ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 22:09:19 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I found it effective to leave the church where no boy would date me because I was not conventionally attractive and because I didn't understand how they didn't seem to appreciate my many fine qualities. Life on the outside was much better in that regard.
I don't know what would be effective for men who want women to chase them. I do know that sitting back and waiting for anything in life is not a good strategy, you have to use the bait that attracts the fish you like.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:13:53 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
That's a helpful insight. I have been trying to understand women's perspectives, but it's hard when my inquiries are met with hostility (not talking about you, personally).
[deleted] ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 21:42:34 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Also, I really don't think men notice who is wearing makeup. We just respond to those we find attractive; it's involuntary. Do you think that women who wear makeup know this, and exploit it in men?
theyear1200 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 01:58:15 on December 18, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Seriously, this isnโt a place for sexists. Go back to the red pill.
[deleted] ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 04:24:05 on December 18, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I don't understand how that comment is sexist. Maybe I didn't make myself clear or you didn't understand what I meant.
MountainMoments ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 00:54:10 on December 18, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I have never picked a partner based on how awesome her face looks wearing make up. I've dated women based on personality, their kick ass ability on skis/climbing gear/bikes, compassion, drive, and kindness. Good looks and attraction are an awesome bonus, especially in a long term relationship. However, I would never presume to tell my partner how to appear to others to be more "pleasing" to me or anyone else. Advice like this is the spiritual equivalent of cat-calling and should be called out no matter who says it.
[deleted] ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 04:29:57 on December 18, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I agree that this kind of comment was offensive coming from who it did. That being said, the magazine stands are full of articles on women improving their personal appearance. I didn't understand the disconnect until someone finally answered what I was asking, rather than trying to read between the lines, looking for an agenda.
MountainMoments ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 04:41:30 on December 18, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Comments like that yours, "that being said..." About women's mags are why people keep assuming you have some douchey agenda. It doesn't come off as genuine discussion, but just a defensive "I hear you, but you're wrong." Women's articles don't have the same impact on LDS women's lives as a member of the Q15. It's not just comparing apples and oranges, and it's apples and rocks. One set is a bunch of shallow magazines targeted towards fashion and selling make-up. Of course they're going to show new products and think up ways to sell their product. The other is a supposed prophet, inspired to lift up the church members. You expect stupid, product and sexist driven bullshit from the magazines, not the so-called man of god. There is no disconnect.
[deleted] ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 04:53:53 on December 18, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
The phrase "that being said" is a shorthand for "looking in a broader context which may or not be relevant to my point". Is there another phrase that I should use that would not sound legalistic or pretentious?
I have not said that anyone is wrong, nor anywhere else in this entire topic. When I disagreed, I kept it to myself.
[deleted] ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 04:56:28 on December 18, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
At the risk of causing greater offense, I feel like even though I genuinely wanted to understand, a certain cohort of commentators CHOSE to take offense, and pilloried me for making sincere inquiries. Only one person, laineypc, bothered to ACTUALLY ANSWER what I was asking. She helped me really get it. Most others just wanted someone to hate on.
MountainMoments ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 05:08:40 on December 18, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
"That being said" is a contradictory transition - used to directly contrast or counter something you've acknowledged already. Ex: I love apples. That being said, I almost never eat them
Here's how it reads to those of us "choosing" to take offense:
"The prophet shouldn't tell women how to wear makeup. That being said, women's mags occasionally DO tell women how to do it, so I can't tell the difference between the two."
Can you really not discern the different impact on a woman's life a cheap magazine and the leader of her spiritual connection to god would have on a woman of Faith's life? You acknowledge every answer given, and then keep making equivocations and qualifiers. It's those snarky comments that make everyone keep thinking you're being disingenuous and just trying to cause problems.
[deleted] ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 05:16:48 on December 18, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Yes, I get what you are saying. You are coming late to the conversation. I was describing for you, in retrospect, the issues that I was trying to walk through in understanding the controversy.
Consider: "My Danish colleague is a shorter guy. That being said, most Danes tend to be taller." That is an example of the context-broadening transition that I used, which I am explaining a second time.
What other clarifications could I make? I don't want to argue, and am not going to do so with you. That's not why I came to this thread.
MountainMoments ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 05:22:04 on December 18, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Comparing short Dane's to tall Dane's, and liking apples but not eating them is a far cry from comparing a prophet to a fashion magazine. That's the disconnect we're all having, that you don't seem to grasp. It's not just different leagues of expectation and decorum, it's different planets. There isn't any broadened context that makes sense to compare a supposed prophet with a cheap fashion marketing machine.
[deleted] ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 05:24:11 on December 18, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Yes, I understand that now. (You're still down-voting.) Are you done now?
[deleted] ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 05:19:22 on December 18, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
And really classy there, you down-vote my replies directly to you (it tallies the same time your comment appears). I'm not down-voting yours.
[deleted] ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 23:13:36 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
He tells women that they look like men without makeup, that's just fucking insulting. It's all about what Ballard wants. I would agree with your comment in another context, but not with a pretty sexist quote from Ballard like this.
[deleted] ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 23:15:54 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
You are coming late to the discussion, but I get it now. Context that he has no experience as a woman. Just like a woman has no business telling a man what a "real man" is. I get it.
There are some deep threads here. I just wish someone would have walked me through it instead of treating me like some sort of attacker.
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 23:33:37 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Sorry, I am a bit late lol. I did feel bad for you watching the other commentors. That's the name of the game on reddit: downvote and attack first, ask questions later. I know how you feel, even on the exmo sub I'll get ripped apart asking a simple question without malice.
[deleted] ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 23:35:45 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Some folks here still have an us-versus-the-world attitude.
You can take the boy out of the cult, but you can't take the cult out of the boy.
[deleted] ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 23:44:22 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
You said it perfectly, I couldn't agree more.
bluediamond ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 13:21:29 on December 18, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Yeah, he could have easily said, โmen, donโt go around looking like women. Grow a mustache. Itโs that simple.โ
But for some reason the burdenโs on the woman to look less androgynous.
RavenWinters56 ยท 25 points ยท Posted at 20:26:54 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Because not everyone likes the opposite sex? Because not everyone is interested in intimacy at all? Because not everyone needs to be in โsave the human raceโ mode like endangered giraffes? Mainly because we arenโt going extinct any time soon and donโt have a need to have anyone put reproduction as their highest priority in which they would need to have good appearances to attract a mate??
Use some critical thinking skills. It really isnโt as exhausting as you may assume it is.
[deleted] ยท -12 points ยท Posted at 20:36:11 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I don't think the quote applies to everyone. We're all different. Could some find it useful? Sure they could. Should I be offended at sincere advice that I don't find useful for my lifestyle? (To be clear, I would not find such advice offensive or controversial.)
laineypc ยท 16 points ยท Posted at 21:46:24 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
When my daughter was in 3rd and 4th grade, she decided she wanted to wear makeup. I reluctantly agreed. We've made it a point not to emphasize looks, to emphasize relationships, interests, abilities, accomplishments, persistence, resilience, etc. She wanted to buy new make up almost every week. She tried all kinds of looks. Up until end of 4th grade, tried to be pretty, tried to compete. Today my daughter is 11 and has decided she is nonbinary. Changed pronouns to they/them, changed their name to a boy's name, is pleased when someone reads them as male, is dreading puberty. I don't know why this change happened when it did, but I worry that at some point they decided they could not make it as a girl, after trying all that make up and girly looks. The message that girls and women ought to make themselves pleasing and conforming to men's and society's beauty standards which are unreachable for many, even with lipstick, is patriarchal and damaging.
lavendargiraffe ยท 9 points ยท Posted at 23:05:21 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I donโt know your child, but I do know that when someone is feeling that their gender identity doesnโt match what they were assigned at birth, often they will try hard to conform to their assigned gender before coming to terms with themselves, as a way of trying to fit in, meet expectations, or denial. I do agree that beauty standards for women can be extremely damaging. Personally, itโs taken a lot for me to feel comfortable in my own skin without makeup. However, speaking as a faraway internet bystander, blaming your childโs gender journey on beauty standards and makeup and โnot being able to make t as a girlโ seems to disregard the validity of trans people as actually being what they say they are. You go, non-binary kid! I hope you continue to have gender affirming experiences. Itโs a hard road that youโre on, but itโs absolutely worth it to live as truly yourself!
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 21:50:15 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Thanks for your heartfelt and informative reply.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 21:55:05 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Do you think that advice to hetero girls/women from a heteronormative perspective should be kept out of public view? Should beauty advice (for those who want such advice) be considered offensive by those who don't desire such advice?
laineypc ยท 10 points ยท Posted at 22:42:12 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I think all girls and women benefit from a more balanced weighting of the value of conventional physical beauty and the contrivances being sold to us in trying to attain the unattainable. For those who are naturally and exceptionally physically attractive, they also have burdens imposed by this unhealthy emphasis, as well as unearned opportunities and advantages.
Why did this old man decide this advice about looks was at all useful to women? Why not say "ladies, believe in yourselves, you can do great things" "take care of yourself, if mama ain't happy, ain't nobody happy"... something. We know about lipstick already. We got that figured out. Trust us.
[deleted] ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 22:51:03 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I get that point. I sometimes found it offensive when a woman presumes to tell me what a "real man" is. As if she had ever been a man and had the pressures that men endure. From that standpoint, I can see why his comment was offensive.
I'm a bit surprised that it has taken so long for this simple point to be made. It's all I was looking for, instead of hostility for asking the question.
Brutusnlester ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 23:18:32 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I have female siblings that are very pretty, everyone of them with great bodies, I have been told I'm pretty (female)... maybe it's because we won a genetic lottery in looks. I don't know, everyone has their own taste. BOTH my parents (never mo) ALWAYS emphasized education, kindness, inclusion of all, defending the unwanted/underdog. Looking "pretty" NEVER made the list or was in the discussion. Sure, you can put lipstick on, etc (I rarely wear make up)... my looks or lack are genetic...I didn't do anything...
My education/intelligence, kindness, morals are what make me me...and I can and did earn and work to gain them. If I have to look good to catch a mate..f#ck that. They should see me (the internal me). The outside gets old, wrinkles, gravity, etc.
So an apostle advice about looking pretty is not helpful, it's harmful, and really shows what HE as a male human non divinely inspired values.
[deleted] ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 23:23:42 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Yeah, I get that now. (lots of other discussion before your comment)
Probably neither men nor women should comment on the challenges of the other sex. There is too much room for misunderstanding.
laineypc ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 01:10:32 on December 18, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I think the hostility is coming from a sense that you are trying a bit of a hijack the topic to get to your agenda, which seems to be your feeling that there are double standards- it's ok that women can presume to tell men how to be men, but it's not ok for men to tell women how to be women. Since we're all exMos here, perhaps we can agree that we're glad we don't have to listen to people we used to trust with "spiritual authority" over our lives and that today we find their pronouncements no longer relevant, at best.
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 04:27:46 on December 18, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I agree that it's great that we don't take arguments from authority here. I certainly don't.
I didn't have an agenda beyond (genuinely) trying to understand what all the fuss was about. It wasn't until very late in the conversation that I understood that it was the context of the statement and the presumption of the speak that was offensive. You, Laineypc, were the one who eventually made that clear. You were the only one who actually answered what I asked, rather than trying to read between the lines. I tried to speak clearly, and you were the only one who heard me clearly.
[deleted] ยท 9 points ยท Posted at 22:35:22 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)*
Here is the first instance of you moving the goalposts.
Bednar says: Put on a little lipstick.
Sunkist says: this quote disgusts me.
You say: why is it disgusting to encourage men and women to present themselves in a way that is pleasing to the other sex?
That's not what Bednar said, and that's not what Sunkist said.
Gotcha question #1
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:47:57 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Right. I am trying to understand, form a male perspective, what women would find offensive about that. I was oftenly (and currently) told how to change my behavior, appearance, etc to appeal to women. I wanted to understand why advising women in that way would be offensive.
[deleted] ยท 10 points ยท Posted at 22:54:53 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
They told you things like shower, don't smell bad, wear colors that look nice on you, tuck in a shirt.
Telling women to wear lipstick is telling them that 1. Their face isn't okay as is after basic grooming, and 2. That they need to sexualize themselves.
Which, yeah, wearing lipstick can be sexy. It's completely inappropriate for a religious leader to tell his congregation to be more sexy. It's similar to Michael Scott suggesting someone to undo their top blouse button.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:56:04 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I agree with that.
[deleted] ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 23:04:04 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:08:09 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Trying from my perspective, I do find it offensive when women proffer opinions on what constitutes manhood of "healthy masculinity". So I can see why his comment was offensive. It wasn't the advice as much as the presumption on his part. Would you say this is close to correct?
Thanks for laying it out for me.
[deleted] ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 23:27:44 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:30:36 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Thanks again for laying it out. I learned something today.
I wish the other commentators had your kind attitude and patience.
theyear1200 ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 01:56:08 on December 18, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Because women donโt exist for menโs pleasure, asshat.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 04:35:50 on December 18, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I never presumed that. Nor did I call anyone names.
bluediamond ยท 23 points ยท Posted at 23:13:17 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
This guy has never been Sephora. Make up is not simple.
Lotion, primer, foundation, finishing powder, eye liner, mascara, eye shadow, blush, and then lipstick.
And after all that, I still have to do my hair.
iidentifyastrump ยท 9 points ยท Posted at 02:21:16 on December 18, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
That's why I just look ugly instead. Less work
Manungal ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 00:41:19 on December 18, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
If YouTube makeup tutorials are any indication, the average teen today wears more makeup than early 2000's drag queens.
Hell, it was a right of passage to wear foundation 3 shades too dark. If your face and your neck are the same ethnicity, will they even let you in highschool?
bobbimorses ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 03:26:46 on December 18, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I'd like to see this guy try to do a damned winged eyeliner! Simple my ass!!
[deleted] ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 01:23:41 on December 18, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Lol hear hear
StarbucksApostasy ยท 38 points ยท Posted at 21:01:29 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
For those that don't understand, it is sexist because it's one sided and reinforces the idea that women are only valued for appearance. Did he have appearance tips for the brethren? Didn't think so.
Women in the church are one step above breeders.
freedbyme ยท 9 points ยท Posted at 22:39:14 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I thought we were the breeders.
laineypc ยท -6 points ยท Posted at 22:55:12 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
"we"? Who is we?
freedbyme ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 00:04:52 on December 18, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Clearly I'm pretty freshly out and was including myself in the collective Mormon women. Haha whoops.
laineypc ยท -3 points ยท Posted at 01:11:41 on December 18, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Haha and here I was figuring you were a dude.
potato_meatball ยท 13 points ยท Posted at 19:52:24 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I'm sorry, what now?
CrashingIntoTheSky ยท 14 points ยท Posted at 00:53:13 on December 18, 2018 ยท (Permalink)*
I left Mormonism years and years ago, but still have to remind myself, "You are under no obligation to look pretty."
I can count on one hand the number of times in my life that I've left the house without makeup on. It's a problem.
TeresaJean59 ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 02:05:32 on December 18, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I rarely wear makeup. On another note, when I read what the OP posted I kept thinking about the times I've been asked to smile.
5thNephi ยท 20 points ยท Posted at 20:23:10 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
reminds me of the time Faust said something to women who maybe thought of themselves as unattractive, encouraging them to wear makeup - "even and old barn looks better with a fresh coat of paint" -
adriyo ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 00:00:23 on December 18, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Oh I had heard that when cosmetics started to become more popular the prophet at the time said that. Either way, that's fucked up and whoever said that can fuck right off.
๐๏ธ heckisme ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 20:23:32 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Yikes I remember hearing that
GoGo_MAE ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 01:13:05 on December 18, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
If itโs that simple, you put on some fucking makeup Ballard
TheAshenWolfe ยท 14 points ยท Posted at 00:45:06 on December 18, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
FUCK THAT NOISE
Fucking sexist bastards
Fucking telling me how to look
Fucking telling me when and how to smile.
Lipstick is my fucking war paint.
It fucking gives me the connfidence to be me
Not something to fucking charm the men around me.
I am fucking force to behold.
How DARE you fucking assume I am not here to change the world.
I am worth more than my fucking smile
Fucking twat waffles think they know me
Brutusnlester ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 01:04:30 on December 18, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Love twat waffles! Never heard those stung together before! One of my new descriptors! Thank you. And yes, I get it and rage with you..
TheAshenWolfe ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 01:06:55 on December 18, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
It's my favorite insult! That and Thunder c*!$% But I try to avoid the c word ๐คฃ
tmikota ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 04:09:49 on December 18, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Upvote for twat waffles.
Praise_to_the_Pasta ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 23:14:03 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
How was this teaching received?
kevinrex ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 23:38:12 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Very well, except for this man, who wants to be a Drag Queen and wear lipstick and look like Dolly Parton.
bossdagen ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 00:01:31 on December 18, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Present him at the veil, and his request shall be granted.
kevinrex ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 00:02:29 on December 18, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
It shall be done.
TeresaJean59 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 02:03:32 on December 18, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Are you sure it's not someone who is a transgender person?
prc_04_ran ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 00:26:04 on December 18, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
My biggest shelf item:
I just don't think the "only true church" would discriminate against anyone.
AnticipatingLunch ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 02:20:14 on December 18, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Is it really discriminatory if God tells us theyโre really actually less important?
-Terrible TBM Hat
/s
prc_04_ran ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 03:20:39 on December 18, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Gosh I hear that logic from TBMs all the time, yet they still believe the "God loves everyone, no matter what" doctrine. It's just so hypocritical
MinaChemin ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 01:28:42 on December 18, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
So sexist. I never heard general authorities tell the bros that they are looking a little too girly lately and need to spray on a little more Old Spice (or whatever it is men do to be more manly)
gwynrose ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 08:58:46 on December 18, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Alright, sure!
puts on black lipstick and kisses my girlfriend
How's that? :)
mamasaid14 ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 00:56:10 on December 18, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Asshat.
RavenWinters56 ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 20:30:11 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
During family scripture time?? Jesus fucking Christ, I highly doubt Christ gave a shit about a womanโs appearance!! Oh wait, they subconsciously worship joseph smith... actually heโd fuck anyone in the name of the Lord so that argument falls apart. Theyโre just sexist and control freaks.
WnderWhenHeCumsAgain ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 22:41:31 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Offensive. But then again. Not surprised. ๐
Switch815 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 18:58:31 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I'm sure this went over well.
๐๏ธ heckisme ยท 17 points ยท Posted at 18:59:24 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Youโd be surprised. They laughed and thought it was cute. I was bamboozled and didnโt know how to respond to that, because to me the sexism is so apparent.
All_Unknowning ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 19:16:44 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
It is sexism... if it was said by anyone but one of the lords anointed on this earth. /s
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 01:23:11 on December 18, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I feel so sick to my stomach reading that.
iamveriesmart ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 01:07:53 on December 18, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Do you have a link to the source?
alicenotinwonder2 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 01:09:18 on December 18, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Whenever they play this on Infants on Thrones I die laughing!
iidentifyastrump ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 02:22:37 on December 18, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
When did he say this?
leftinatree ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 01:18:52 on December 18, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I like the quote almost as much as I liked the '60s song "Wives and Lovers" by Jack Jones.
Hey, little girl, comb your hair, fix your makeup,
Soon he will open the door.
Don't think because there's a ring on your finger
You needn't try anymore.
For wives should always be lovers, too.
Run to his arms the moment he comes home to you.
I'm wanting you. . .
Day after day there are girls at the office
And men will always be men.
Don't send him off with your hair still in curlers;
You may not see him again.
For wives should always be lovers, too;
Run to his arms the moment he comes home to you.
He's almost here. . .
Hey, little girl, better wear something pretty
Something you'd wear to go to the city
And dim all the lights, pour the wine, start the music,
Time to get ready for love.
It was good advice in the 60s and nothing's changed.'
Except for the presence of those idiot PC snowflakes.
TeresaJean59 ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 02:06:20 on December 18, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I'm a snowflake now.
baklanchik ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 05:27:56 on December 18, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
The church teaches that women are subordinate to men so it makes sense that you feel that way.
[deleted] ยท -17 points ยท Posted at 19:56:59 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Why is this controversial? Why not encourage men and women to present themselves in a way that pleases the opposite sex?
Would you find it offensive to advise men to spend time talking with and listening to women? What about advice on a man's appearance?
๐๏ธ heckisme ยท 19 points ยท Posted at 20:04:05 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Why should women be obligated to wear something that changes their appearance?
The fact that you think saying women SHOULD wear make up is equivalent to โtalking with and listening to womenโ is so incoherent that Iโm not sure I can have a productive conversation with you.
RavenWinters56 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 20:15:16 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
They might have been using satire. Some people use an odd sense of humor thatโs almost indistinguishable from their personal beliefs. They included men in there too.
Or they really think men and especially women should present themselves solely to appeal to the opposite sex, in which I totally agree with you. Women should be able to look and dress for themselves without being judged for it, no matter how they choose to appear, although Iโd hope it includes proper hygiene if theyโre in a place to afford it.
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 20:29:59 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I didn't say, nor do I think, that people should behave SOLELY to appeal to the opposite sex. (Should I really have to make such a legalistic statement in a discussion?)
I think women are and should be free to do as they will. If they WANT to appeal to men, there are certainly practices that will help them in that regard. Why should advice to that end be considered offensive or controversial? (I get it, some women dislike men and have no interest in them. For women who want to appeal to men, they may value such advice.)
๐๏ธ heckisme ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:23:08 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I sure hope theyโre joking lol, & I agree with your hygiene point
[deleted] ยท -9 points ยท Posted at 20:26:00 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I don't think anyone is obliged to do anything like that. There is a BIG difference between saying that you SHOULD do something and saying that you MUST do something. Do you think that men should do nothing for their appearance to appeal to women?
Not all men like to talk about things like women do, but encouraging them to do so will help them socialize with and relate to women in a way that appeals to women. Why is this controversial?
๐๏ธ heckisme ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 21:02:33 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Yep, I think men should present how they want. Beard? Cool! No beard? Nice! It literally isnโt my business. Clothing too, people should dress how they like.
[deleted] ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 21:13:02 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Do you think that there are things that men can do that, in general, that would improve the way women see them, and make them more appealing to women? Not saying universally, just generally. Would that kind of advice be controversial, let alone "offensive"? Or do you find the tastes of (most, not all) men offensive?
๐๏ธ heckisme ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 23:54:16 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
โDonโt wander around looking like menโ Is not helpful advice, itโs an abrasive order. From an authority figure in the church.
[deleted] ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 23:59:52 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
And also a healthy dose of presumption that he was the right one to deliver the "advice".
๐๏ธ heckisme ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 00:02:02 on December 18, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Exactly
MinaChemin ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 01:26:55 on December 18, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Never heard general authorities tell the bros that they are looking a little too girly lately and need to spray in a little more axe
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:59:02 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Yeah, I get it now. It wasn't the "advice" it was the context and the source.
๐๏ธ heckisme ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 00:01:52 on December 18, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
And the delivery, which was condescending. Plus the point communicated previously that women shouldnโt be obligated to wear make up.
zaffiromite ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 06:15:36 on December 18, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Do you think women without lipstick look like men? Do women with glop on their faces appeal more to all men? If so what's wrong with men that they have to have a woman all glopped up in order to find her attractive?
AhenobarbusTextor ยท 9 points ยท Posted at 22:12:27 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Dear u/moving_on_7723,
The controversy and offense arise from (among other things) the following issues: 1. The quote objectifies women. The sentence prior to the OP's quote tells the man-folk to wake up and look around. This is immediately followed by the "you beautiful girls" bit. This quote teaches that men are to act (look) and women are to be acted upon (be looked at) and should make sure they are properly prepared to be acted upon (lipstick). It's frankly sickening. 2. Ballard had just addressed the "problem" of porn. This frames the quote in the context of objectifying women and, consequently, creepifies the quote into a not-so-subtle support for rape culture. 3. The fact that a super-annuated man with "authority" - whose ancestors and religious tradition celebrated polygynous relations between old men and young women - is the one telling women that they need to make themselves pretty for men to eye-rape them is beyond disgusting. It's the fetid icing on the shit-show cake.
I could go on, but I think I'll leave it at that. If you still can't understand how or why the quote is offensive, I recommend that you should take a course or two from a womens-studies professor at a reputable university (e.g., not BYU).
[deleted] ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 22:16:50 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Thanks for your thoughtful and detailed reply. It's very informative.
[deleted] ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 20:23:19 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Wow! I must have hit a nerve. So many down-votes, but no replies.
MissBubbly17 ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 20:30:07 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Because the internet knows not to feed a troll.
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 20:33:46 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I'm not trolling. I have asked sincere questions about the topic at hand in a respectful manner.
The_Tapir_is_Back ยท -2 points ยท Posted at 21:44:53 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I disagree with you, therefore, you must be a troll.
[deleted] ยท -2 points ยท Posted at 21:48:26 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I see that "logic" here often, unfortunately.
The_Tapir_is_Back ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 21:54:00 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
And getting a "fuck you" instead of being told why your opinion is wrong is another favorite of mime.
[deleted] ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 21:57:01 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I try really, really hard to be respectful and considerate. Even when I ask sincere questions, like here, trying to learn something, people respond with name-calling. It's discouraging.
The_Tapir_is_Back ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 00:31:36 on December 18, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
You can't be truly considerate(gatekeeping! gatekeeping! JK, I only cite fallacies ironically) in anyone's eyes when your question is challenging in nature. It goes both ways mind you and is a hard mindset to break, especially if you're fresh out of a culture that has molded you to think that way that way in order to protect the system/ideals.
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 04:31:29 on December 18, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Yeah, I see that now. As I mentioned in another thread, many users on this board have an us-versus-the-world mindset.
You can take the boy out of the cult, but you can't take the cult out of the boy.
Anna3254 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 22:35:01 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
๐ป look! I found the worlds smallest violin and itโs playing just for you!
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 22:48:41 on December 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Thanks for that. Some other commentators are providing great insight.