The rumors were correct: the Mormons are trying to change the narrative of Joseph and the Book of Mormon from “translated” to “dictated”.

Dictation? Holy gaslighting Batman!

Whenever I’ve dictated something. It’s something I wrote myself...

For 179 years this book has been examined and attacked, denied and deconstructed, targeted and torn apart like perhaps no other book in modern religious history—perhaps like no other book in any religious history. And still it stands. —Jeffrey R. Holland

Sometimes you just gotta manipulate some of the facts to keep that trend alive.

I don’t understand how dictated is better for them?

When it comes down to it, I don't think most TBMs care if JS dictated or translated the BoM. TBMs have a testimony in the truthfulness of the BoM, it makes them feel warm and fuzzy. The vocabulary surrounding the how the book came to be doesn't matter, because TBMs have faith it is a book from God.

So where does the talking salamander fit in again?

Convert here....when I started taking the missionary discussions/going to church I had to learn a whole new vocabulary. Vision, translate by the power of God, Stake Center, Fireside, Heavenly Father, Priesthood, Melchizedek, Aaronic, garments, ordinance, sealing, patriarch, sacrament, repent, petting 🤮, how to pray “properly”, eternity, funeral potatoes, all the whack ass BoM names, etc etc etc.

DICTATE/DICTATION were never on the list of new vocabulary. Not once. It doesn’t even fit into the Mormon file in my brain. I have to attempt to add it, to stretch the boundaries of my 30 year old Mormon vocab file to make it fit.

This is total bullshit.

[deleted]

So Hales is branching out from proving that Smith Jr was a serial adulterer through his illegal polygamous and polyandrous marriages and moving on to try to reconcile the BoM as fiction.

Good job, Brian! You will get even more people to leave the church through your shitty and unbelievable excuses!

To be fair, someone could both translate and dictate at the same time.

If it wasn't translated, why were the plates needed at all?

[deleted]

Maybe "channeled" would work.

Wow.

This corporation literally has no dignity.

What will they say when it’s proven he didn’t know enough to dictate it either?

Here’s the article

http://www.ldsliving.com/Why-Joseph-Smiths-Dictation-of-the-Book-of-Mormon-Is-Simply-Jaw-Dropping/s/89568

Well, ya know... Reformed Egyptian is mighty hard to read....

"Hi, we're here from the moving company. We got a call about some goal posts."

I thought they were moving away from the narrative that the BOM was historically true. Why does ‘dictated’ vs. ‘translated’ matter in this sense? Wouldn’t ‘dictated’ double down on the historical truth claims?

Nevermo here: Isn't the whole head in the hat thing in the church essays?? Or am I remembering wrong?

But can't people just say now "if it was dictated correctly" Vs what they usually say "translated correctly"

Prophet, seer and dictator.

They backed far away from him being the Author.

They backed far away from knowing who the Lamanites are.

​

Maybe leadership has taken to wearing hats again but forgot to take out the rock before putting them on their head?

Would somebody kindly explain to me the difference between dictating the plates and translating the plates. I'm aware of the definitions of each word, but for some reason I cannot understand how this is a big thing when it comes to Joseph Smith and the plates. Thank you in advance!!

Hard to believe people who have spent their entire lives trying to defend and teach that Joseph translated the plates will now have to do a 180 and believe he “dictated” the plates.

I'm afraid you are in error. The record shows that Joey dictated the story while looking in his hat and using his magic rock. IIRC, It is not firmly established that the plates were even present while Joey dictated the story. The church has no explanation if or how the alleged gold plates influenced Joey's utterances at all. That "church" basically implies that Joey had some kind of mystical communion with them. If you read carefully, the golden plates could have stayed buried and Joey could have done his Vulcan mind-meld with them anyway.

And yet they still don’t realize that they’re even more fucked by the “God dictated the BoM to Joseph in the hat” method than by a potentially flawed/fuzzy translation.

Now they’re stuck with steel and horses and silk and wild castrated oxen. Life will find a way.

Can someone explain the controversy to me? I feel like I was always taught that he both translated AND dictated the plates. What is actually going on here?

BOM was supposed to be "absolutely correct" and was not mistranslated, as was always vehemently stated by the members of the ward I grew up in, and is backed up by the book itself.

Any change to this admits only one thing, if you still want to believe, then you now have to believe GOD IS JUST A TROLL! He screwed with the original translation, stating it was correct, let us believe that for a long ass time, and then came back like "LOLs gAIZE!!! I GOTTED U!!!"

That's God now.

Man, fuck Brian Hales!

Link? I looked for it but it seems they took it down. I want to show my mom. Her shelf is close to breaking I think this could give it some good cracks.

So after this oh-so-impressive translation or dictation or whatever - why did Joseph try and go up north and sell the rights to the copyright of the book? Which angel was it that told him to do that?

gimme a break

Fuckin...Holy clickbait, Batman...

Brian Hales = knows a lot = seems stupid

What does this serve whether it was translated?

It must be exhausting to be Brian C. Hales.

So if Joseph dictated through the stone that we still have, why doesn't the prophet now use it and dictate some more? I think most TBMs will get to this place and cause a lot of issues.

Am I going crazy or is there absolutely no mention of the golden plates in the text of the article at all?

http://www.ldsliving.com/Why-Joseph-Smiths-Dictation-of-the-Book-of-Mormon-Is-Simply-Jaw-Dropping/s/89568

Wooooooooooooooooooow

Mother fuckers.

Or just rightfully deliver it as it is. Joseph was the author.

Isn't plagiarism still plagiarism even if it's dictated? /s

I think this is a somewhat sidestep in the right direction -_-

but

It's my hope that maybe MAYBE in 10ish 20ish years we can finally end these vague charades as a religion and move forward with a full blow reformation...

One that is inclusive of all sexes, genders, and persuasions Recognizes love as the pillar of our religion And one that apologizes for our organizations past transgressions.....

Pipe Dreams are fun.

If that happens I'd be happy to come back....until then Fuck OFF TSCC

"Why Joseph Smiths Scrying of the book of mormon..."

Peering into a stone and seeing shit is called "Scrying" Brian Hales , you know that nonsense conmen used to trick the gullible.

So it's not "translated" anymore its "dictated"? That's A HUGE FUCKING DIFFERENCE!!!

Why did he even need the plates then?! Even more then the rock in the hat...this makes no sense.

Here's why it's jaw-dropping - it has led to numerous deaths, rapes, suffering, pain, family quarrels/division, garments, and much more unfortunate side effects. All because of Joseph Smith.

I love how comments have to be sent...you can't just comment and have them show up.

Here's a link to the actual article:
http://www.ldsliving.com/Why-Joseph-Smiths-Dictation-of-the-Book-of-Mormon-Is-Simply-Jaw-Dropping/s/89568 with the whole, 'He never had his last paragraph repeated' BS that is always spouted. All the players in the BOM are dead so we can't get the truth from them, but given what all of JS's neighbors said about him, I have often wondered how many people were involved in writing the Book of Mormon. In one John Dehlin interview it was stated that the list included Lucy Mack and that Emma knew about it.

That’s insane. Man. Guess we will see how far they take it.

So, how are they going to spin the non-existent gold plates?

Could somebody give me a TLDR of the article?

How could an uneducated 12 year old dictate a book...

Does anyone a link to this article? I'm finding it difficult to search the site without becoming angry

I don't know what to think.

It's astonishing that Mormons can be lead astray so easily!

Created by Joseph could be more accurate, but probably the guy who wrote A view of Hebrews need to have his copyrights.

who the hell is Brian C. Hales?
I never heard of him...
fairmormon says he's an anesthesiologist that's best known for writing a book about mormons. great, cause that's what I look for in an anesthesiologist: being an author of religious books.

Brian C. Hales is a Utah-based anesthesiologist and author. Perhaps his most prominent work, thus far, is Modern Polygamy and Mormon Fundamentalism: The Generations after the Manifesto. He received his medical degree from the University of Utah and did his residency at the University of Kansas Medical Center.

Dr. Hales served a mission for the church The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and has been a member of the Mormon Tabernacle Choir .

His other books include The Priesthood of Modern Polygamy: An LDS Perspective (with J. Max Anderson), The Doctrines of Mormon Fundamentalism (with J. Max Anderson), Is Fundamentalism Fundamental?, Light: The Physical and Spiritual Nature of Light, The Veil, and Trials: Understanding and Overcoming. He also operates a web site at mormonfundamentalism.com.

Brian Hale’s is so deceiving that he had fooled himself to believe the lies

Just like JS convinced himself to believe his own lies

Hale’s like JS

Instead of translated or dictated they should just used the word inspired. Before I left I was thinking how much better it would be if they just admitted it wasnt real history but an inspired work.

That was, of course, before I new everything else was rubbish too.

Still doubling down on the “un educated, country bumpkin dumb shit theory”.

Still taking Emma’s “word” as the Gospel truth! Both JS and Emma are documented liars!! They both lied through their dam teeth about polygamy and I’m sure many other facts.

Now the fact that they were lying for the lord is some how ok but nonetheless they lied and they lied convincingly. (Just got to know when they are lying)

So Maybe they were trying to start a church to make a living????

Joseph was a convincing con man. I.e. Joseph: to Heber (Kimball) “I need to have your dear wife as my (inset number ) wife it is the lords commandment!!” After much fretting and despair, Heber; says “ok you can have her!”

Joseph “it was just a test”. Heber “oh thank god”. Joseph: “but I will take your teen age daughter”. Heber: oh no problem!” Thanks for the salvation.

The simplest most plausible explanation is that they formed a church cobbled together with ideas they liked and most importantly ideas that sold to people of that era. Now since it got off the ground It has been modified and tweaked so that it will continue to sell. History sells. History and artifacts sell. History, artifacts and mystic explanations sell even better!!

Preaching is a damn good way to make a living if you have the talent to talk, and inspire. Joseph, and the current leaders, have all of those talents in spades!

The product is polygamist sex, spiritual prowess( you can know shit and be guided by god!) and pure political power. Add in some salvation for the masses and by god it is some good shit!!

This angers me

Un-fucking-believable.

Jaw dropping?

Isn't that click bait??

Isn't this proof that Leaders know TSCC is a complete fraud? I say it is!

They have always said that he dictated it to someone who was writing it down. Rock-in-hat or plates. Your claim is void. Did you even read the article? lol.

First rule of argumentation: Know what the fk you are talking about.