What a mess. But if that isn't indicative of Mormon teachings in general, I don't know what is.
Polygamy is forbidden in the BOM, which Joseph Smith "translated."
But it was okay for Joseph to practice polygamy because God told him to in a newer, better revelation that said the purpose of polygamy is to produce children.
But Joseph Smith disobeyed and didn't have any kids with his extra wives. Oops.
Actually that's a good thing because it means he totally didn't have any sex with those girls/women, especially the young ones!
Anyway, the polygamy thing is all behind us. We don't do that anymore.
Except as a reward for all of eternity in heaven.
"..a house of order, saith the Lord God, and not a house of confusion."
And plural "wives" were required to be virgins, per Joseph Smith's Doctrine and Covenants. Except he disobeyed his own commandments and "married" (meaning, had affairs with) women who were already married, including mother/daughter pairs.
By the time Brother Joseph came up with this revelation, he had largely abandoned the practice of hooking up with married women. This was his practice early on (1838-1841), possibly because he wanted a situation of mutually-assured destruction if anyone should tattle on him.
My favorite part is god added the caveat that if emma objected to more wives, it didn't matter and joe could marry more anyway.
mooh2001 ยท 23 points ยท Posted at 14:43:27 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
It was REALLY important to God that Joseph Smith get those extra wives!
Rukanth ยท 10 points ยท Posted at 15:50:55 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Nothing like a marriage where you can't see other men and your great great great grandmother gets nothing better to do than stare out a window introduced to polygamy from the ripe uneducated age of a few years shy of 18, learning how to be a single mother to 10 children, staring out a window never having them around #tendermercies
Shocker shocker how even within polygamy the only people who go for it seem to be the men who think they'd get the three wives, and not the fodder who'd probably be told to give the GAs and Bishops first pick as the early mormon missionaries had on an offnote. On a more humorous note, Joseph Smith also had (shocker), never gotten a legal marriage license for normal marriages, let alone polygamous marriages, and on a few other notes seemed to avoid certifications for just a lot of other stuff as well outside of the religion. The infamous Kirkland bank he founded failed certification as well and i'm pretty sure if you go through random things you'll stumble into them out as well.
The reason you can't really erase Polygamy, now matter how hard they could try is because a lot of people and/or early settlers came from them, possibly multiplying like rabbits with exponential growth, you have one man, having 5-8 kids for his wife, now add in a couple more wives, and 5-8 kids for each of those wifes. Say what you want about Brigham Young's racisms but at least on a plus side compared to Joseph Smith he at least tried to put a cherry on top of a dungheap for the wives and at least gave some a house and place to live in as part of the exchange. Not really anything for the kids though unless you came from one of the favored wives families though. If you think 8 kids is too hard to spend time with adequately, try adding in 55 wives and at least a 100+ kids living all across the country for him to figure out and the polygamous wives were basically single mothers trying to raise swathes of mormon swarms of children with the 'father' figure primarily just coming like once a year to diddle and that was basically the full depth of the marriage while they stared out the window, (likely knowing that he would be literally leaving off to visit one of the other wives and not stay and help, visiting a new wife every week whenever he wanted if he wanted.
Briggy had 56 kids and 55 wives source. If those women had been in monogamous marriages they would have collectively given birth to over 400 children. Polygamy historically results in lower fertility rates, the Mormons were no exception.
exmono ยท 18 points ยท Posted at 07:04:35 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Except men are allowed to be "sealed" to multiple women, as long as all but one are divorced from you or dead.
I remember a big stir when I was a kid over a lady in my family ward getting remarried after her husband died (this was multiple years later and the marriage wasn't exactly 'happy' anyways, so I can see now why she would want to remarry.) And was technically sealed to two(gasp) men.
actually, in order for her to get sealed to the second man, she would have had to get a sealing cancellation from her first husband. Men don't need this cancellation. In fact if a man has a living ex-wife and wants to get remarried he only needs a sealing "clearance" to get sealed again, while his wife would need a sealing "cancellation".
After a woman dies, if she has been sealed to a first husband, gets a sealing clearance and has been sealed to a second husband, she can be then be sealed to all men to whom she was married.
Sealing of Deceased Members Deceased Women.A deceased woman may be sealed to all men to whom she was legally married during her life. However, if she was sealed to a husband during her life, all her husbands must be deceased before she may be sealed to a husband to whom she was not sealed during life. This includes former husbands from whom she was divorced. handbook 1 3:6:1
From there, its pretty much 'god will figure it out'.
Thank you for the knowledge bomb. 40ish years in the tribe and never knew that. What a fricking mess. Makes me more comfortable in my assertion that if there is a God, and if that God is worthy of the name, it will 100% understand and not punish my choice to set all this shit aside and just try to be a good person while I'm here. If all this haphazard temple work is just creating a bigger and bigger puzzle for God to solve, My glory should be a piece of cake to figure out.
"Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones."
Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.
Worthy and single in the CK? lets look to the prophets!
"In the spirit world there is an increase of males and females, there are millions of them, and if I am faithful all the time, and continue right along with brother Brigham, we will go to brother Joseph and say, โHere we are brother Joseph; we are here ourselves are we not, with none of the property we possessed in our probationary state, not even the rings on our fingers?โ He will say to us, โCome along, my boys, we will give you a good suit of clothes. Where are your wives?โ โThey are back yonder; they would not follow us.โ โNever mind,โ says Joseph, โhere are thousands, have all you want.โ --Heber C Kimball JoD Vol 4 p. 209 1857
FairMoron says it's not about health, it's because God said so. God also said for you to build me a mansion house at your own personal expense. Then he wants you to serve a mission in a far away land. Don't worry, I'll watch and take care of your wife while you're gone ;-)
exmono ยท 42 points ยท Posted at 07:03:04 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
That's right. Because morality comes from god. And whatever god says must be moral. Even if that means doing immoral things like killing children who make fun of you, or cutting off a drunk man's head, or grooming children behind closed doors with eternal punishment on the line, or "marrying" the nanny without your wife's knowledge, or causing the gay kids to kill themselves. Because you can't be good without religion.
Rukanth ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 17:34:22 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
The older and more populace a religion has and familiarity to the locals, the easier it is to sell to the locals. Christanity offsplits, even though it has some signs that the Jewish people may have been "his chosen people", were interestingly enough the oldest, but they're probably more pelicular yes, but rich pelicular being shrewd with money and even more restricting rules out. I've heard stories that people who try to convert to their religion are heavily discouraged (except in extreme cases of marrying in with heavy desire from the married in person), as it involves.... Snip Snip AAHHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHEOWUIRQORUEWQIOPUROQWEIUPR!...., so very few people want to join, and yet Jerusalem is a hotbed since it has three mainstream religions all split off there and historical basis for all of the old testament based religions and significance to many of the biblical figures that served as prophets/leaders for each. From Judaism, Christanity, and Islam. Other major religions like Hinduism in india and Buddism/taoism in Asian countries do their own thing. There's very little appeal for someone out in those countries to want to convert to christanity if they're already happy with what they have.
It's not about health, but if a study shows that alcohol is bad for you or that coffee contains chemicals that, in large enough doses, can be carcinogenic, then that is totally evidence that Joseph was a prophet. But it's not about health guys. /s
If "science" confirms what we already thought to be the case, then that's just an added bonus! But generally science cannot be trusted. The only certain method to discern truth is to close your eyes and focus all of your psychic energy into telepathically perceiving what a ghost is telling you. Because ghosts are very reliable sources for accurate information!
If Mormon God is setting random litmus tests to prove the "faithful", Mormon God is a Pharisee. And an asshole.
maizy20 ยท 47 points ยท Posted at 06:58:24 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Caffeine is A-okay if it comes carbonated and sugary, ala Coke. If it comes warm in any form it's forbidden. Oh, except hot chocolate, which is warm, sugary AND caffeinated. That's okay. For some reason. God works in mysterious ways.
My mom always said because coffee and tea had harmful ingredients in them, and then listed off all the bad things that are in them . probably off some senile old Mormon woman blog
Rukanth ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 23:26:03 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
The disappointing thing is that Green tea is actually quite healthy, and rich and chock full of Antioxidants. If you get a hold of Matcha or a green tea powder too too, that stuff is known for being the superfood of gods with like 10x more, it's a bit hard to get used to the taste of vegetal green teas out at first and it's a very tempermental for first time brewers since green tea is very finicky and precise much more than black teas where just a smidgen too hot or 20 seconds too long and you can have a beautiful cup go from soft and sweet to bitter and astringent. If you get the chance though a good green tea with lemon or a Arizona Tea is delicious. I never got Monster drinks since those legitimately have one of the worst forms of raw caffeine in those, plus they're sugary and marketed to kids and risk takers.
Now, i'm ordinarily not a fearer of cafeine and i've accidentally guzzled going from shocked to 1 to barely buzzed after 12 cups of coffee in accidental day without noticing anymore, and outside of staying up for several hours (and typing out a couple mammoth behemoth sized blocks of texts and doing homework), coffee just makes me think a lot honestly once you get used to it. Brewed Tea's caffeine seems to be much more mellow and seems to naturally regulate the decline, there's a peak of energy, but it mellows softly and you don't ever crash on it. Caffeine from a Coffee tends to be intense at first and it's true there's a bit of a crash, i hear about the general rule is to try to stay away and keep coffee to the mornings before 2 pm.
If you look into all the cases where Caffeine has been deadly though, are when it's artificially taken out and concentrated, such as forms such as straight up "caffeine pills" and/or highly concentrated energy drinks. You drink a few cups of coffee and your'e fine, you drink green tea and it's been linked to health benefits, (and, Coffee may or may not, interestingly enough have a link to reducing risks of Alzheimer and/or depression.) Although incidents from (caffeine), are very rare, it's kinda like water, a cup or two is good for you.
And you should be fine anywhere in the 1-3 cups daily range and most people don't even get their 8 cups of water in a day. But in the cases of caffeine overdoses, it was extreme cases of people taking caffeine pills with the caffeine equivalent of 225 CUPS of coffee in a handful of pills/various unlabeled 'diet pills', or a lack of labels on energy drinks. A typical Cup of Coffee has about 50-80 mg of caffeine in a drink, a cup of black tea is about 2/3rd of that at 30-50 mg, a cup of green tea can be low as 20-30 mg, and a cup of hot chocolate (doubt anyone drinks it for the caffeine), has a (basically negliable) amount of like 0 - 5 mg.
The daily dose where you're fine i hear maxes out at about 400 mg from what i've heard of caffeine. That's about 5 - 8 cups of coffee a day (and barely enough people even get their 8 cups of water a day, so you should be fine), 8 - 15 cups of tea and you should be fine. But with energy drinks, you can have as much as 200 mg in a little tiny 12 oz soda can and hit the danger limit with a little kid without even noticing it with two brightly colored, pop colored energy drinks and get overdoses with as little as 3.5 monsters drinks and numerous count with caffeine pills. in all the dangerous accounts of caffeine, they (ironically), feature the raw, cracked caffeine added directly and hidden to drink where you have no guarentee on how much you're getting.
Coffee cases and tea overdoses are basically unheard of, unless you're drinking copious amounts of like 30 a day, plus you have to brew it and to get to that point even of the most concentrated stuff you'd have to go out of your way. Most people are gonna be fine with a daily joe of maybe 1-2 cups of coffee and it's been linked to health benefits. 3+ is pushing it, and 5-8+ is really when you shoullld probably take a step back, but that's more than generous. In all of the thousands of years we've been drinking it, there's scarcely a time, coffee and/or green tea cases are basically unheard of. And even among energy drinks they're still relatively rare and/or involve heart conditions, but they almost universally all involve energy drinks and/or caffeine pills, those are the real targets that should be getting attention. Instead of getting the stable, naturally releasing form of caffeine they get cracked rushes from easily accessible, colorful bright pop colored drinks targeted at kids and risk taking teenagers (oh the days), who can overdose on them without even trying in as little as 2-4 drinks passing the 400 mg of caffeine limit going over into the 400-800 mg danger zone without even trying while you'd need a kid to brew and drink a whole Carafe of coffee (maybe two or three), to get to that point and they'd probably stop by the second cup or so.
Energy drinks though and caffeine pills, even if (lds approved) forms of caffeine are ironically the forms with the most risks and a (huge) majority of all the caffeine death cases in the US, even with thousands of years, few are due (solely) to coffee, and in the cases energy drinks and/or caffeine pills, in all the cases i could find are the main marks when people go out. It's too easy for a young kid to go ahead and overdose on an exhorbitant amount drinks thinking it's fine but in those 3 pop can sized drinks get 600 mg of caffeine and get the equivilent of drinking 12 cups of coffee's worth in 3 little pop cans. Not to mention that's just the caffeine, say what you want but energy and soda caffeine always seems to have intense rises and crashes to me while teas seem to release it much more mellow and gradually while coffee is still a powerful jolt, yet seems to have a little mellowed back. Maybe that's just me speaking out, but 40 mg in a energy drink with 2667% of your daily dose of B12 and 667% of B6 in half a can does not sound right to me.
Rygar_ ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 19:06:54 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
More like Diet Coke! Many in my family drink only diet sodas. If many actually researched the shit this can do to you compared to the benefits of coffee or green tea. I guess God wasn't able to see the affects the coke brothers would have on the world.
Thanks for posting this. During my two decades of TSCC, I heard so many varying reasons and this but not that... It's just all so ridiculous. What about caffeine free soda etc? What about decaffeinated coffee? No cuz it's brewed? What does brewed have to do with anything? You can cold brew, so... It just gets so convoluted and many degrees removed from the original text... From beginning to end, pointless.
TL, DR: Drinking Coke is shameful but our original prophets fucked 14 year old virgins... Get on board or go to hell.
This is what's so frustrating. Even if you peg a mormon down on the issue like the OP does, eventually they just say,
"The prophet says no coffee and no green/black tea, so that's what I don't drink. End of story. It doesn't matter why."
They don't actually care why they have to follow all the rules, they just know they get a warm fuzzy feeling when they complyobey utilize their agency wisely.
Well in a way theyโre right, it doesnโt matter why. If you can figure out the logic of the rules then there is no need for a prophet to pass them down because ostensibly everyone would have the same chance at figuring them out. Itโs only because they make no sense that God needs a prophet to tell his โchildren whom he lovesโ the rules he arbitrarily made up in order to live with him again.
I really wish the last line on that post said something the effect of .... โI am looking for further light and knowledgeโ
[deleted] ยท 18 points ยท Posted at 05:31:05 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Well, when you put it like that....lol. I remember the first time I tried to explain this to someone. I was so embarrassed at how easily they poked holes in my explanation. I had some great cog dis over that way back when. Ahhhh, memories.
When I was planning my wedding to my NeverMo (now ex)wife, it was awkward trying to explain to the wedding planner the restrictions for my side of the family that are TBMs. It was just a matter of making sure they could accommodate everyone, but I could tell she baffled by the nonsense.
-Mormons teach that the point of the Word of Wisdom [now] is basically just staying away from anything addictive. You still canโt have a beer though, even if youโre not an alcoholic. But you can have a soda, even though sodaโs addictive.
-The original Word of Wisdom didnโt say anything about addiction. Joseph Smith didnโt translate it from some ancient text; it was exactly what he meant to say. Didnโt he know the word โaddictionโ?
-Why do Mormons think this addiction doctrine is special? Everyone knows being addicted to something isnโt healthy. The Word of Wisdom went from being a list of things to stay away from to being a safe, broad statement.
-Mormons like to compare the Word of Wisdom to Jews and the Law of Moses. Iโve never heard a Jew jusify the Law of Moses as merely abstaining from things that are addictive. Jews seem to have at least stick to their original list. They didnโt have to change Mosesโ words, but Mormons have to change Joseph Smithโs words.
-Not everything that is addictive is a consumable. Like greed being an addiction to, say, money. The church hoards billions of dollars even though thereโs poverty-stricken countries in the world. The church itself is addicted to money.
Y_Me ยท 9 points ยท Posted at 14:27:17 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
just staying away from anything addictive.
But not sugar, which is surprisingly addictive. Eat all of that shit you want. My TBM family has even said they can't give up eating junk food because it's the only "pleasure" they have. If it wasn't self inflicted stupidity, I would actually feel bad for them.
Gjynah ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 15:49:55 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I heard that world of warcraft breaks the word of wisdom because itโs addictive when I was growing up.
Anyone with even a bit of metaphysical chemistry knowledge knows that tannic acid reacts with coffee molecules and heat to damage the soul, while tannic acid reacts with chocolate molecules and heat to protect against dementors. So itโs totally different, see?
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:02:15 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Hahaha! Can you imagine if somehow chocolate became a WOW food mormons had to give up!? I know a few people who would definitely have some doubts then. But of course obedience to the WOW is not a logical argument but it's a fun thought experiment.
[deleted] ยท 10 points ยท Posted at 12:11:10 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Itโs about isolating the people socially. Each of the main WoW beverages that are ruled out have an association with social activities. Banning them makes the TBM church-goers peculiar and forces them to become more insular when they donโt fit in with outside society.
Health was just the sales pitch. Nobody needed โrevelationโ to tell them being a drunk was bad for you, even in 1850. And all those substances are perfectly fine in moderation.
apawst8 ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 15:53:54 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Itโs about isolating the people socially. Each of the main WoW beverages that are ruled out have an association with social activities.
Exactly!!
When gentiles want to meet each other in the morning, what do they meet for? Coffee
When British gentiles meet in the afternoon, what do they call the meeting? Tea.
What's a common meeting place for after work, before dinner? "Let's meet for (alcoholic) drinks"
i have a strong suspicion that in the 19th century economics played a major part in it. they wanted to limit disposable spending of the membership so they could have those funds available to the church.
Agreed! Alcohol is not the issue. The goodness of the entire bevvie is what is important. Allegedly the French drink red wine and apparently benefit from it. It's good anyway. Beer is an incredible accompaniment to a nice lunch or dinner, because of its digestive fermented goodness. In fact, the reason we eat and drink fermented things is because they are GOOD for us. I mean, come on, if you're talking about health, such bevvies IN MODERATION are the BEST!
I'll channel my inner TBM to justify this silliness:
(TBM) Prophets clarified that "hot drinks" really mean tea (specifically, the tea plant) and coffee, regardless of temperature. They never mentioned caffeine. Hot chocolate, herbal tea and soda do not have these, so they don't violate the WoW. (/TBM)
Nevermind the fact that caffeinated soda was banned from BYU and members had a long standing belief that caffeine was against the WoW, which they were never corrected on for decades.
The WoW is a perfect example of the legalistic and pharisaical nature of Mormonism.
But remember . . . mild drinks made of barley are good. But not beer which is a mild drink made from . . .
[deleted] ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 16:16:34 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I remember a couple years ago, my coworker smugly told me, "the church officially said it was ok to drink caffeinated soda... I've been drinking it for years," as if he somehow knew it was ok all along.
Around that same time I asked my parents almost explicitly what you wrote in this post (gold!) and they were stumped, dad started spouting bullshit about how coffee is bad for you, yada yada, while ignoring the effects of sugar on the body, etc.
In the end, I came to my own conclusion on the matter:
*They drink soda because it's sweet and they love the taste. That's it.
*
Coffee and tea are largely an acquired taste. They're bitter/somewhat bland drinks (not my delicious La Barba), and many people (especially sweet tooth Mormons) don't like it, and understandably so.
The WOW was only a suggestion and not a requirement until Heber Grant and prohibition era. A lot of people had these vices. I recall reading an excerpt from Joseph F Smith wanting to quit tabacco. He was in the first prez at the time.
My great grandmother journal recounts a story were the ladies got together for a card game and drank coffee. Heber Grant dropped by to visit his cousin unannounced, mormons are good at that. All the women pushed the coffee to my great grandmother. Heber grant looked at her and upon leaving said WOW is ok in moderation with one cup, but a dozen cups might be overdoing it.
I dont know. Mormons are good at letting things slip in that shouldn'. If it prohibits this then imagine how good we be if we add in extra stuff to live the higher law. Like coke, caffeine, chocolate chips cookies, etc against WOW. or like byui honor code vs byu
[deleted] ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 15:29:30 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
And they found some loop hole to drink brewed cocoa beans, or some shit that barely has flavor. Literally the same process (French press) , but not coffee. Smh.
yaxi67 ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 16:12:37 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Stupid set set of rules that are total fiction and have no bearing on anything of any importance.
jogboy ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 16:59:25 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
It's fascinating to see how the ideas change over time. I found a diagram in an old geneology book that implied that tea and tobacco would keep you out of the Celestial Kingdom, and that alcohol would take you all the way down to Telestial.
Colieoh ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 18:17:34 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I even got told growing up that herbal teas weren't ok at all, because it was still called tea and tea was bad. I was even afraid to drink honey lemon tea, which to me is literally just hot water, lemon juice and honey. No actual tea.
Chai corrupted me. It's the whole reason I left the church. Definitely the chai.
My gad this is wonderful. I have been searching for something that is mostly harmless but clearly critical and this is gold to me. Thank you so much for sharing this. I am legit smiling.
All those explanations are confusing. Todayโs apostles would simply tell you this: Because we say so.โ
Mormonism โinfantizesโ members. The most confident and accomplished men and women become submissive and ignorant when it comes to LDS church leaders.
wtf1962 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 00:14:04 on August 3, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
the irony of this has been crossing my mind lately, as the medical community is now saying that coffee and tea are both good for you. specifically, coffee drinkers live longer than non-coffee drinkers. so, old joe screwed up that revelation too. but i guess that's what happens when you get your marching orders from a white salamander. ๐
Growing up as a non-mormon in a heavily Mormon area there was always a rumor that caffienated soda was considered bad until a Mormon bought Pepsi Co. and then the bishop got a magical message from God that it was ok. I doubt this is true but a funny story none the less.
I also remember my mom always having extra Sprite around at my birthday parties for my LDS friends so that they wouldn't feel out of place.
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 02:42:30 on August 3, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
It is just made up. Joseph Smith's first wife was upset because the men were spitting their tobacco on the floor and she had to clean it up. So Joseph came up with the word of wisdom to get back at his wife for raising a fuss. It targeted tea and coffee which the women loved. Today's version has more to do with preserving the Mormon cocaine - sugar.
Dino_47 ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 14:55:28 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
WoW is basically so men don't get drunk and beat their wives, because anyone who drinks alcohol becomes an alcoholic and becomes violent, and then their whole family begins to drink hard liquor casually and oh, the water was so unhealthy back then that alcohol was the only option, so if the leaders back then drank some alcohol, it must've been because the water was dirty.
Iโm going to need a works cited list and less โI thinkโ wording, back to the drawing board.
This literally only works for people who havenโt been around drinking and just hear about it.
apawst8 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 15:55:25 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Nit: I think most TBMs still won't drink herbal teas.
Those that do, their explanation is that the ban on tea is a ban on drinks made from the tea plant. Only black and green teas are made from the tea plant. Herbal "teas" don't contain tea leaves at all. They are merely called "tea" because they are brewed the same way.
I have a book from the 1960's written by some GA. Basically it's about fermentation, just like the Jews aren't to eat levened bread. Coffee and black tea supposedly are slightly fermented before processing. But, beer ferments, and the original WoW allowed for it, so there's that....
apawst8 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:31:38 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Should also be pointed out that the Word of Wisdom literally says beer is permitted (mild drinks made from barley).
its like waking up and consciously acting retarded. Well if you want to be a particular people... you may be particularly special person! Maybe even retarded. maybe not. I don't know. Not like I don't love my special sister... thing is she acts with more integrity than many with healthier bodies. Leaves me wondering about all the special beliefs people have, and why they are so special... to them. Its like the "Special gene". if you fall for that... special... is especially soo.... special. or is it particular...
chastepaste ยท 229 points ยท Posted at 05:24:19 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
What a mess. But if that isn't indicative of Mormon teachings in general, I don't know what is.
Polygamy is forbidden in the BOM, which Joseph Smith "translated."
But it was okay for Joseph to practice polygamy because God told him to in a newer, better revelation that said the purpose of polygamy is to produce children.
But Joseph Smith disobeyed and didn't have any kids with his extra wives. Oops.
Actually that's a good thing because it means he totally didn't have any sex with those girls/women, especially the young ones!
Anyway, the polygamy thing is all behind us. We don't do that anymore.
Except as a reward for all of eternity in heaven.
"..a house of order, saith the Lord God, and not a house of confusion."
NoMoreAtPresent ยท 86 points ยท Posted at 06:33:16 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
And plural "wives" were required to be virgins, per Joseph Smith's Doctrine and Covenants. Except he disobeyed his own commandments and "married" (meaning, had affairs with) women who were already married, including mother/daughter pairs.
japanesepiano ยท 16 points ยท Posted at 16:17:47 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
By the time Brother Joseph came up with this revelation, he had largely abandoned the practice of hooking up with married women. This was his practice early on (1838-1841), possibly because he wanted a situation of mutually-assured destruction if anyone should tattle on him.
No_Engineering ยท 34 points ยท Posted at 14:03:32 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
My favorite part is god added the caveat that if emma objected to more wives, it didn't matter and joe could marry more anyway.
mooh2001 ยท 23 points ยท Posted at 14:43:27 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
It was REALLY important to God that Joseph Smith get those extra wives!
Rukanth ยท 10 points ยท Posted at 15:50:55 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Nothing like a marriage where you can't see other men and your great great great grandmother gets nothing better to do than stare out a window introduced to polygamy from the ripe uneducated age of a few years shy of 18, learning how to be a single mother to 10 children, staring out a window never having them around #tendermercies
Shocker shocker how even within polygamy the only people who go for it seem to be the men who think they'd get the three wives, and not the fodder who'd probably be told to give the GAs and Bishops first pick as the early mormon missionaries had on an offnote. On a more humorous note, Joseph Smith also had (shocker), never gotten a legal marriage license for normal marriages, let alone polygamous marriages, and on a few other notes seemed to avoid certifications for just a lot of other stuff as well outside of the religion. The infamous Kirkland bank he founded failed certification as well and i'm pretty sure if you go through random things you'll stumble into them out as well.
The reason you can't really erase Polygamy, now matter how hard they could try is because a lot of people and/or early settlers came from them, possibly multiplying like rabbits with exponential growth, you have one man, having 5-8 kids for his wife, now add in a couple more wives, and 5-8 kids for each of those wifes. Say what you want about Brigham Young's racisms but at least on a plus side compared to Joseph Smith he at least tried to put a cherry on top of a dungheap for the wives and at least gave some a house and place to live in as part of the exchange. Not really anything for the kids though unless you came from one of the favored wives families though. If you think 8 kids is too hard to spend time with adequately, try adding in 55 wives and at least a 100+ kids living all across the country for him to figure out and the polygamous wives were basically single mothers trying to raise swathes of mormon swarms of children with the 'father' figure primarily just coming like once a year to diddle and that was basically the full depth of the marriage while they stared out the window, (likely knowing that he would be literally leaving off to visit one of the other wives and not stay and help, visiting a new wife every week whenever he wanted if he wanted.
NearlyHeadlessLaban ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 23:12:41 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Briggy had 56 kids and 55 wives source. If those women had been in monogamous marriages they would have collectively given birth to over 400 children. Polygamy historically results in lower fertility rates, the Mormons were no exception.
exmono ยท 18 points ยท Posted at 07:04:35 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Except men are allowed to be "sealed" to multiple women, as long as all but one are divorced from you or dead.
Fireplay5 ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 08:15:37 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I remember a big stir when I was a kid over a lady in my family ward getting remarried after her husband died (this was multiple years later and the marriage wasn't exactly 'happy' anyways, so I can see now why she would want to remarry.) And was technically sealed to two(gasp) men.
Bloody hypocrites.
LDSatheist ยท 16 points ยท Posted at 13:16:29 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
actually, in order for her to get sealed to the second man, she would have had to get a sealing cancellation from her first husband. Men don't need this cancellation. In fact if a man has a living ex-wife and wants to get remarried he only needs a sealing "clearance" to get sealed again, while his wife would need a sealing "cancellation".
psychcatlady ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 14:32:12 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
What would happen to the first husband, the one who died? Would he be alone in the afterlife since he is no longer sealed to the woman?
No_Engineering ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 14:49:24 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
After a woman dies, if she has been sealed to a first husband, gets a sealing clearance and has been sealed to a second husband, she can be then be sealed to all men to whom she was married.
Sealing of Deceased Members Deceased Women. A deceased woman may be sealed to all men to whom she was legally married during her life. However, if she was sealed to a husband during her life, all her husbands must be deceased before she may be sealed to a husband to whom she was not sealed during life. This includes former husbands from whom she was divorced. handbook 1 3:6:1
From there, its pretty much 'god will figure it out'.
MuzzleHimWellSon ยท 9 points ยท Posted at 16:07:41 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Thank you for the knowledge bomb. 40ish years in the tribe and never knew that. What a fricking mess. Makes me more comfortable in my assertion that if there is a God, and if that God is worthy of the name, it will 100% understand and not punish my choice to set all this shit aside and just try to be a good person while I'm here. If all this haphazard temple work is just creating a bigger and bigger puzzle for God to solve, My glory should be a piece of cake to figure out.
No_Engineering ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 16:08:58 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
"Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones."
MuzzleHimWellSon ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 16:35:46 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Exactly.
LDSatheist ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 15:10:05 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I think he would get assigned a new wife in the CK (as long as he makes it there). There are binders of women in the CK ready for the pickings.
No_Engineering ยท 13 points ยท Posted at 16:10:44 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Worthy and single in the CK? lets look to the prophets!
"In the spirit world there is an increase of males and females, there are millions of them, and if I am faithful all the time, and continue right along with brother Brigham, we will go to brother Joseph and say, โHere we are brother Joseph; we are here ourselves are we not, with none of the property we possessed in our probationary state, not even the rings on our fingers?โ He will say to us, โCome along, my boys, we will give you a good suit of clothes. Where are your wives?โ โThey are back yonder; they would not follow us.โ โNever mind,โ says Joseph, โhere are thousands, have all you want.โ --Heber C Kimball JoD Vol 4 p. 209 1857
has-it-a-name ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 15:21:52 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
should add after bullet 4 -But the next 4 prophets all had lots of kids with lots of wives
Rygar_ ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 19:03:39 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
JS had mastered the pull out method. A man of many talents for sure.
socalledDNA ยท 86 points ยท Posted at 05:27:34 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Squeakmaster3000 ยท 27 points ยท Posted at 13:24:49 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Yeah, tithing is โoptionalโ We just wonโt let you get married in the Temple and youโll be subjected to the judgment of all who know you.
NotfeelinitinID ยท 52 points ยท Posted at 05:14:39 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
๐คธ๐ผโโ๏ธmental gymnastics๐คธ๐ผโโ๏ธ
Notyour5thWife ยท 9 points ยท Posted at 11:47:03 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
You could win a gold medal with those gymnastics.
tringerninjer ยท 47 points ยท Posted at 05:47:25 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
FairMoron says it's not about health, it's because God said so. God also said for you to build me a mansion house at your own personal expense. Then he wants you to serve a mission in a far away land. Don't worry, I'll watch and take care of your wife while you're gone ;-)
exmono ยท 42 points ยท Posted at 07:03:04 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
That's right. Because morality comes from god. And whatever god says must be moral. Even if that means doing immoral things like killing children who make fun of you, or cutting off a drunk man's head, or grooming children behind closed doors with eternal punishment on the line, or "marrying" the nanny without your wife's knowledge, or causing the gay kids to kill themselves. Because you can't be good without religion.
Rukanth ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 17:34:22 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
The older and more populace a religion has and familiarity to the locals, the easier it is to sell to the locals. Christanity offsplits, even though it has some signs that the Jewish people may have been "his chosen people", were interestingly enough the oldest, but they're probably more pelicular yes, but rich pelicular being shrewd with money and even more restricting rules out. I've heard stories that people who try to convert to their religion are heavily discouraged (except in extreme cases of marrying in with heavy desire from the married in person), as it involves.... Snip Snip AAHHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHEOWUIRQORUEWQIOPUROQWEIUPR!...., so very few people want to join, and yet Jerusalem is a hotbed since it has three mainstream religions all split off there and historical basis for all of the old testament based religions and significance to many of the biblical figures that served as prophets/leaders for each. From Judaism, Christanity, and Islam. Other major religions like Hinduism in india and Buddism/taoism in Asian countries do their own thing. There's very little appeal for someone out in those countries to want to convert to christanity if they're already happy with what they have.
atapirofdoubt ยท 10 points ยท Posted at 15:31:10 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
It's not about health, but if a study shows that alcohol is bad for you or that coffee contains chemicals that, in large enough doses, can be carcinogenic, then that is totally evidence that Joseph was a prophet. But it's not about health guys. /s
tringerninjer ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 15:46:38 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
If "science" confirms what we already thought to be the case, then that's just an added bonus! But generally science cannot be trusted. The only certain method to discern truth is to close your eyes and focus all of your psychic energy into telepathically perceiving what a ghost is telling you. Because ghosts are very reliable sources for accurate information!
heartbrokenandgone ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 16:32:44 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
If Mormon God is setting random litmus tests to prove the "faithful", Mormon God is a Pharisee. And an asshole.
maizy20 ยท 47 points ยท Posted at 06:58:24 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Caffeine is A-okay if it comes carbonated and sugary, ala Coke. If it comes warm in any form it's forbidden. Oh, except hot chocolate, which is warm, sugary AND caffeinated. That's okay. For some reason. God works in mysterious ways.
genericwhiteman18 ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 15:11:31 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
My mom always said because coffee and tea had harmful ingredients in them, and then listed off all the bad things that are in them . probably off some senile old Mormon woman blog
Rukanth ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 23:26:03 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
The disappointing thing is that Green tea is actually quite healthy, and rich and chock full of Antioxidants. If you get a hold of Matcha or a green tea powder too too, that stuff is known for being the superfood of gods with like 10x more, it's a bit hard to get used to the taste of vegetal green teas out at first and it's a very tempermental for first time brewers since green tea is very finicky and precise much more than black teas where just a smidgen too hot or 20 seconds too long and you can have a beautiful cup go from soft and sweet to bitter and astringent. If you get the chance though a good green tea with lemon or a Arizona Tea is delicious. I never got Monster drinks since those legitimately have one of the worst forms of raw caffeine in those, plus they're sugary and marketed to kids and risk takers.
Now, i'm ordinarily not a fearer of cafeine and i've accidentally guzzled going from shocked to 1 to barely buzzed after 12 cups of coffee in accidental day without noticing anymore, and outside of staying up for several hours (and typing out a couple mammoth behemoth sized blocks of texts and doing homework), coffee just makes me think a lot honestly once you get used to it. Brewed Tea's caffeine seems to be much more mellow and seems to naturally regulate the decline, there's a peak of energy, but it mellows softly and you don't ever crash on it. Caffeine from a Coffee tends to be intense at first and it's true there's a bit of a crash, i hear about the general rule is to try to stay away and keep coffee to the mornings before 2 pm.
If you look into all the cases where Caffeine has been deadly though, are when it's artificially taken out and concentrated, such as forms such as straight up "caffeine pills" and/or highly concentrated energy drinks. You drink a few cups of coffee and your'e fine, you drink green tea and it's been linked to health benefits, (and, Coffee may or may not, interestingly enough have a link to reducing risks of Alzheimer and/or depression.) Although incidents from (caffeine), are very rare, it's kinda like water, a cup or two is good for you.
And you should be fine anywhere in the 1-3 cups daily range and most people don't even get their 8 cups of water in a day. But in the cases of caffeine overdoses, it was extreme cases of people taking caffeine pills with the caffeine equivalent of 225 CUPS of coffee in a handful of pills/various unlabeled 'diet pills', or a lack of labels on energy drinks. A typical Cup of Coffee has about 50-80 mg of caffeine in a drink, a cup of black tea is about 2/3rd of that at 30-50 mg, a cup of green tea can be low as 20-30 mg, and a cup of hot chocolate (doubt anyone drinks it for the caffeine), has a (basically negliable) amount of like 0 - 5 mg.
The daily dose where you're fine i hear maxes out at about 400 mg from what i've heard of caffeine. That's about 5 - 8 cups of coffee a day (and barely enough people even get their 8 cups of water a day, so you should be fine), 8 - 15 cups of tea and you should be fine. But with energy drinks, you can have as much as 200 mg in a little tiny 12 oz soda can and hit the danger limit with a little kid without even noticing it with two brightly colored, pop colored energy drinks and get overdoses with as little as 3.5 monsters drinks and numerous count with caffeine pills. in all the dangerous accounts of caffeine, they (ironically), feature the raw, cracked caffeine added directly and hidden to drink where you have no guarentee on how much you're getting.
Coffee cases and tea overdoses are basically unheard of, unless you're drinking copious amounts of like 30 a day, plus you have to brew it and to get to that point even of the most concentrated stuff you'd have to go out of your way. Most people are gonna be fine with a daily joe of maybe 1-2 cups of coffee and it's been linked to health benefits. 3+ is pushing it, and 5-8+ is really when you shoullld probably take a step back, but that's more than generous. In all of the thousands of years we've been drinking it, there's scarcely a time, coffee and/or green tea cases are basically unheard of. And even among energy drinks they're still relatively rare and/or involve heart conditions, but they almost universally all involve energy drinks and/or caffeine pills, those are the real targets that should be getting attention. Instead of getting the stable, naturally releasing form of caffeine they get cracked rushes from easily accessible, colorful bright pop colored drinks targeted at kids and risk taking teenagers (oh the days), who can overdose on them without even trying in as little as 2-4 drinks passing the 400 mg of caffeine limit going over into the 400-800 mg danger zone without even trying while you'd need a kid to brew and drink a whole Carafe of coffee (maybe two or three), to get to that point and they'd probably stop by the second cup or so.
Energy drinks though and caffeine pills, even if (lds approved) forms of caffeine are ironically the forms with the most risks and a (huge) majority of all the caffeine death cases in the US, even with thousands of years, few are due (solely) to coffee, and in the cases energy drinks and/or caffeine pills, in all the cases i could find are the main marks when people go out. It's too easy for a young kid to go ahead and overdose on an exhorbitant amount drinks thinking it's fine but in those 3 pop can sized drinks get 600 mg of caffeine and get the equivilent of drinking 12 cups of coffee's worth in 3 little pop cans. Not to mention that's just the caffeine, say what you want but energy and soda caffeine always seems to have intense rises and crashes to me while teas seem to release it much more mellow and gradually while coffee is still a powerful jolt, yet seems to have a little mellowed back. Maybe that's just me speaking out, but 40 mg in a energy drink with 2667% of your daily dose of B12 and 667% of B6 in half a can does not sound right to me.
Rygar_ ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 19:06:54 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
More like Diet Coke! Many in my family drink only diet sodas. If many actually researched the shit this can do to you compared to the benefits of coffee or green tea. I guess God wasn't able to see the affects the coke brothers would have on the world.
mrryancampbell ยท 26 points ยท Posted at 07:59:06 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Thanks for posting this. During my two decades of TSCC, I heard so many varying reasons and this but not that... It's just all so ridiculous. What about caffeine free soda etc? What about decaffeinated coffee? No cuz it's brewed? What does brewed have to do with anything? You can cold brew, so... It just gets so convoluted and many degrees removed from the original text... From beginning to end, pointless.
TL, DR: Drinking Coke is shameful but our original prophets fucked 14 year old virgins... Get on board or go to hell.
GrimRipper211 ยท 27 points ยท Posted at 11:45:49 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
It's a loyalty test! Gosh Dangit! Now shut up and let me finish my Red Bull /s
Misspellled ยท 14 points ยท Posted at 13:47:00 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
This is what's so frustrating. Even if you peg a mormon down on the issue like the OP does, eventually they just say,
"The prophet says no coffee and no green/black tea, so that's what I don't drink. End of story. It doesn't matter why."
They don't actually care why they have to follow all the rules, they just know they get a warm fuzzy feeling when they
complyobeyutilize their agency wisely.Soylent1981 ยท 12 points ยท Posted at 14:24:39 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Well in a way theyโre right, it doesnโt matter why. If you can figure out the logic of the rules then there is no need for a prophet to pass them down because ostensibly everyone would have the same chance at figuring them out. Itโs only because they make no sense that God needs a prophet to tell his โchildren whom he lovesโ the rules he arbitrarily made up in order to live with him again.
HolyBonerOfMin ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 16:03:26 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Slam fuckin dunk
aclays ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 16:50:49 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Read that in napoleon dynamites voice lol
New_random_name ยท 23 points ยท Posted at 05:13:11 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I really wish the last line on that post said something the effect of .... โI am looking for further light and knowledgeโ
[deleted] ยท 18 points ยท Posted at 05:31:05 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Well, when you put it like that....lol. I remember the first time I tried to explain this to someone. I was so embarrassed at how easily they poked holes in my explanation. I had some great cog dis over that way back when. Ahhhh, memories.
Soylent1981 ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 14:32:57 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
When I was planning my wedding to my NeverMo (now ex)wife, it was awkward trying to explain to the wedding planner the restrictions for my side of the family that are TBMs. It was just a matter of making sure they could accommodate everyone, but I could tell she baffled by the nonsense.
MormoNoMo67 ยท 17 points ยท Posted at 10:49:58 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Itโs simple understand when you view it like thisโฆ
It isnโt about a health code or revelation from God, it is about strict adherence to whatever the leadership of the church says to do.
It is a symbol of your blind obedience and social conditioning , not about health.
grove_doubter ยท 13 points ยท Posted at 08:25:04 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
This is pure genius.
I've never seen the circular, illogical reasoning of the WOW better demonstrated than with this meme.
SamsquatchOR ยท 14 points ยท Posted at 11:48:45 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
-Mormons teach that the point of the Word of Wisdom [now] is basically just staying away from anything addictive. You still canโt have a beer though, even if youโre not an alcoholic. But you can have a soda, even though sodaโs addictive.
-The original Word of Wisdom didnโt say anything about addiction. Joseph Smith didnโt translate it from some ancient text; it was exactly what he meant to say. Didnโt he know the word โaddictionโ?
-Why do Mormons think this addiction doctrine is special? Everyone knows being addicted to something isnโt healthy. The Word of Wisdom went from being a list of things to stay away from to being a safe, broad statement.
-Mormons like to compare the Word of Wisdom to Jews and the Law of Moses. Iโve never heard a Jew jusify the Law of Moses as merely abstaining from things that are addictive. Jews seem to have at least stick to their original list. They didnโt have to change Mosesโ words, but Mormons have to change Joseph Smithโs words.
-Not everything that is addictive is a consumable. Like greed being an addiction to, say, money. The church hoards billions of dollars even though thereโs poverty-stricken countries in the world. The church itself is addicted to money.
Y_Me ยท 9 points ยท Posted at 14:27:17 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
But not sugar, which is surprisingly addictive. Eat all of that shit you want. My TBM family has even said they can't give up eating junk food because it's the only "pleasure" they have. If it wasn't self inflicted stupidity, I would actually feel bad for them.
Gjynah ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 15:49:55 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I heard that world of warcraft breaks the word of wisdom because itโs addictive when I was growing up.
gabbagool ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 16:00:44 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
mormons hooked me on wow.
Gjynah ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 16:23:37 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Same, haha
2oothDK ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 14:08:18 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
That's the beauty of having living prophets and modern day revelation! /s
DocBeetus ยท 13 points ยท Posted at 12:31:39 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Itโs all about the tannic acid!
KarlDenke ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 13:44:21 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Canโt tell you how many times Iโve heard my parents use this argument.
N620JH ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 17:22:41 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Canโt tell you how many times I used the tannic acid argument on my mission, since thatโs what they taught us in the MTC.
They lied to us and used us as kids to go spread their lies. Fuckers.
famedpretzel ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 15:27:56 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
This is the way it was eventually explained to me, so itโs dumb because itโs a non issue ingredient?
Apricot-tree ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 17:01:15 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Itโs a bad argument because it is completely wrong. For an exceedingly detailed analysis of this issue, see: https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/66pnw0/abcs_of_science_and_mormonism_t_is_for_excerpt/
aclays ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 16:52:44 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Huh, they might be interested to know that chocolate has tannic acid too!
DocBeetus ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 22:47:54 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Anyone with even a bit of metaphysical chemistry knowledge knows that tannic acid reacts with coffee molecules and heat to damage the soul, while tannic acid reacts with chocolate molecules and heat to protect against dementors. So itโs totally different, see?
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:02:15 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Hahaha! Can you imagine if somehow chocolate became a WOW food mormons had to give up!? I know a few people who would definitely have some doubts then. But of course obedience to the WOW is not a logical argument but it's a fun thought experiment.
[deleted] ยท 10 points ยท Posted at 12:11:10 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
Squeakmaster3000 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 13:26:49 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Precisely ๐
lineskogans ยท 10 points ยท Posted at 13:51:18 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Itโs about isolating the people socially. Each of the main WoW beverages that are ruled out have an association with social activities. Banning them makes the TBM church-goers peculiar and forces them to become more insular when they donโt fit in with outside society.
Health was just the sales pitch. Nobody needed โrevelationโ to tell them being a drunk was bad for you, even in 1850. And all those substances are perfectly fine in moderation.
apawst8 ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 15:53:54 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Exactly!!
When gentiles want to meet each other in the morning, what do they meet for? Coffee
When British gentiles meet in the afternoon, what do they call the meeting? Tea.
What's a common meeting place for after work, before dinner? "Let's meet for (alcoholic) drinks"
gabbagool ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 16:11:44 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
i have a strong suspicion that in the 19th century economics played a major part in it. they wanted to limit disposable spending of the membership so they could have those funds available to the church.
PoggioBracciolini ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 14:06:19 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Agreed! Alcohol is not the issue. The goodness of the entire bevvie is what is important. Allegedly the French drink red wine and apparently benefit from it. It's good anyway. Beer is an incredible accompaniment to a nice lunch or dinner, because of its digestive fermented goodness. In fact, the reason we eat and drink fermented things is because they are GOOD for us. I mean, come on, if you're talking about health, such bevvies IN MODERATION are the BEST!
aLittleQueer ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 05:37:19 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Perfect summary. LOL
Beefster09 ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 07:14:58 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
https://i.gifer.com/4EV4.gif
kiwirish ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 10:00:43 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Relevant /r/exmormon Vizzini
KarlDenke ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 13:56:17 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Iโm dying over here.
mrryancampbell ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 07:55:45 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Lmao
2sacred2relate ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 14:16:54 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I'll channel my inner TBM to justify this silliness:
(TBM) Prophets clarified that "hot drinks" really mean tea (specifically, the tea plant) and coffee, regardless of temperature. They never mentioned caffeine. Hot chocolate, herbal tea and soda do not have these, so they don't violate the WoW. (/TBM)
Nevermind the fact that caffeinated soda was banned from BYU and members had a long standing belief that caffeine was against the WoW, which they were never corrected on for decades.
The WoW is a perfect example of the legalistic and pharisaical nature of Mormonism.
Bishop-Stan ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 15:16:01 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
But remember . . . mild drinks made of barley are good. But not beer which is a mild drink made from . . .
[deleted] ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 16:16:34 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I remember a couple years ago, my coworker smugly told me, "the church officially said it was ok to drink caffeinated soda... I've been drinking it for years," as if he somehow knew it was ok all along.
Around that same time I asked my parents almost explicitly what you wrote in this post (gold!) and they were stumped, dad started spouting bullshit about how coffee is bad for you, yada yada, while ignoring the effects of sugar on the body, etc.
In the end, I came to my own conclusion on the matter:
*They drink soda because it's sweet and they love the taste. That's it. *
Coffee and tea are largely an acquired taste. They're bitter/somewhat bland drinks (not my delicious La Barba), and many people (especially sweet tooth Mormons) don't like it, and understandably so.
Janinjajones ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 12:42:37 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Totally a mind fuck. This is a perfect summary. Brother Jake explains this perfectly as well.
https://youtu.be/GBEqpJXPvIM
maestramama1025 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 15:15:05 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
That was awesome!
Kolob_Hikes ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 13:57:46 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
The WOW was only a suggestion and not a requirement until Heber Grant and prohibition era. A lot of people had these vices. I recall reading an excerpt from Joseph F Smith wanting to quit tabacco. He was in the first prez at the time.
My great grandmother journal recounts a story were the ladies got together for a card game and drank coffee. Heber Grant dropped by to visit his cousin unannounced, mormons are good at that. All the women pushed the coffee to my great grandmother. Heber grant looked at her and upon leaving said WOW is ok in moderation with one cup, but a dozen cups might be overdoing it.
padmoosen ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 14:13:13 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
When did โhot drinksโ means coffee and tea? Like when was that an official declaration?
Kolob_Hikes ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 15:42:22 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I dont know. Mormons are good at letting things slip in that shouldn'. If it prohibits this then imagine how good we be if we add in extra stuff to live the higher law. Like coke, caffeine, chocolate chips cookies, etc against WOW. or like byui honor code vs byu
[deleted] ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 15:29:30 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Such utter bullshit.
Drink up, heathens.
gabbagool ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 15:58:04 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
and then there is alcohol where the text says beer is ok.
alicenotinwonder2 ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 16:03:53 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
And they found some loop hole to drink brewed cocoa beans, or some shit that barely has flavor. Literally the same process (French press) , but not coffee. Smh.
MuzzleHimWellSon ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 16:08:38 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Circle jerk.
yaxi67 ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 16:12:37 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Stupid set set of rules that are total fiction and have no bearing on anything of any importance.
jogboy ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 16:59:25 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
It's fascinating to see how the ideas change over time. I found a diagram in an old geneology book that implied that tea and tobacco would keep you out of the Celestial Kingdom, and that alcohol would take you all the way down to Telestial.
Colieoh ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 18:17:34 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I even got told growing up that herbal teas weren't ok at all, because it was still called tea and tea was bad. I was even afraid to drink honey lemon tea, which to me is literally just hot water, lemon juice and honey. No actual tea.
Chai corrupted me. It's the whole reason I left the church. Definitely the chai.
PoggioBracciolini ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 13:54:34 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
The left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing!
(Note, the left and right in this usage of the traditional expression are purposely reversed!!!)
PoggioBracciolini ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 14:07:02 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
PECULIAR is not the half of it. ;)
doncasias ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 17:16:26 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Iโve never heard it more succinctly summarized. Thanks for this. It made me laugh!!!
Jupperware ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 17:19:26 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
My gad this is wonderful. I have been searching for something that is mostly harmless but clearly critical and this is gold to me. Thank you so much for sharing this. I am legit smiling.
1kaladinstormblessed ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 18:16:15 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Checkmate Atheists
mlperiwinkle ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 18:16:20 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I'm exhausted from all the mental gymnastics and now need caffeine to recover
kevinrex ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 21:01:25 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I'll give you some further light and knowledge. Get out of Utah now!
DoubtingThomas50 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 23:52:14 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
All those explanations are confusing. Todayโs apostles would simply tell you this: Because we say so.โ
Mormonism โinfantizesโ members. The most confident and accomplished men and women become submissive and ignorant when it comes to LDS church leaders.
wtf1962 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 00:14:04 on August 3, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
the irony of this has been crossing my mind lately, as the medical community is now saying that coffee and tea are both good for you. specifically, coffee drinkers live longer than non-coffee drinkers. so, old joe screwed up that revelation too. but i guess that's what happens when you get your marching orders from a white salamander. ๐
Tirestoressmellfunny ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 00:45:18 on August 3, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Growing up as a non-mormon in a heavily Mormon area there was always a rumor that caffienated soda was considered bad until a Mormon bought Pepsi Co. and then the bishop got a magical message from God that it was ok. I doubt this is true but a funny story none the less.
I also remember my mom always having extra Sprite around at my birthday parties for my LDS friends so that they wouldn't feel out of place.
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 02:42:30 on August 3, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
It is just made up. Joseph Smith's first wife was upset because the men were spitting their tobacco on the floor and she had to clean it up. So Joseph came up with the word of wisdom to get back at his wife for raising a fuss. It targeted tea and coffee which the women loved. Today's version has more to do with preserving the Mormon cocaine - sugar.
Gadianton ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 13:24:28 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Seems like you could make a pretty funky looking Venn Diagram out of this.
islnddance1 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 13:11:58 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
This is exactly the way I learned it too!
Dino_47 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 14:52:59 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
No need to be confused. TSCC has explained the entire purpose for the WoW in this 3 minute lds.org video. https://www.lds.org/media-library/video/2017-03-0120-the-word-of-wisdom-and-the-temperance-movement?lang=eng
Dino_47 ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 14:55:28 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
WoW is basically so men don't get drunk and beat their wives, because anyone who drinks alcohol becomes an alcoholic and becomes violent, and then their whole family begins to drink hard liquor casually and oh, the water was so unhealthy back then that alcohol was the only option, so if the leaders back then drank some alcohol, it must've been because the water was dirty.
famedpretzel ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 15:43:53 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Iโm going to need a works cited list and less โI thinkโ wording, back to the drawing board.
This literally only works for people who havenโt been around drinking and just hear about it.
apawst8 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 15:55:25 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Nit: I think most TBMs still won't drink herbal teas.
Those that do, their explanation is that the ban on tea is a ban on drinks made from the tea plant. Only black and green teas are made from the tea plant. Herbal "teas" don't contain tea leaves at all. They are merely called "tea" because they are brewed the same way.
takeaganderortwo ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 17:59:49 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Reading this now
whiskyred ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 18:13:04 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Makes sense to me! ๐ณ
DamnedLDSCult ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:01:43 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I have a book from the 1960's written by some GA. Basically it's about fermentation, just like the Jews aren't to eat levened bread. Coffee and black tea supposedly are slightly fermented before processing. But, beer ferments, and the original WoW allowed for it, so there's that....
apawst8 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:31:38 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Should also be pointed out that the Word of Wisdom literally says beer is permitted (mild drinks made from barley).
Ilovelucymacksmith7 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:56:42 on August 2, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
its like waking up and consciously acting retarded. Well if you want to be a particular people... you may be particularly special person! Maybe even retarded. maybe not. I don't know. Not like I don't love my special sister... thing is she acts with more integrity than many with healthier bodies. Leaves me wondering about all the special beliefs people have, and why they are so special... to them. Its like the "Special gene". if you fall for that... special... is especially soo.... special. or is it particular...