Mother saw me looking at the ces letter and scheduled an appointment with the stake president. Wish Me Luck

[deleted]

Isn't is funny how seeking answers to questions is a bad thing?

If only she caught you looking at porn or another 'serious sin'. That would just be an interview with the bishop. Looking at the CES letter is clearly much worse in the eyes of members.

Soo my SP is on the fairmormon.org board of directors... This is gonna be fun

www.fairmormon.org/authors/lynch-john

Just stick to 4 things.

1) First vision

2) Book of Abraham

3) Polygamy

4) Book of Mormon

Study the CES letter relative to those 4 and watch the mental gymnastics fly.

Problem here is that the SP isn’t going to sit down with you and go over doctrinal concerns. It will be an emotionally manipulative meeting focused on making the OP feel guilty and unworthy. Facts won’t matter here, as much as we all get a burning in our bosom at the thought of a teenager schooling an SP with facts. As much as you could school the SP, facts won’t be a part of his meeting.

My advice, go in with a printed copy of "letter to my wife". Let him walk you through it and take notes on the book/printout itself. Ask him what things he things are valid issues and which ones are not (as well as the why and why not).

Update! I am good, I still hate the church. Just like you all said, bishop just strayed away from the questions and went to tell me that you are living forms of the devil. Man, how I hate him.

If you don't want to play along, then ask the SP to provide answers to the questions in the CeS.

Why can’t parents just let us make our own choices with our agency? Best of luck to you!

You've. Done. Nothing. Wrong.

Anything he says that is along the lines of "don't question, just have faith" or anything else like it is an insult to your god-given intelligence. There is nothing wrong with asking questions, and then following the evidence to it's natural conclusion.

Honey, under the circumstances, you should not be posting pictures of yourself in this forum. You are, I assume, still dependent on your parents, and there's no point in exposing yourself to potential conflict if it's not necessary.

Don't record the meeting; it's illegal in your state.

Don't see this as a way to convince the SP that you're right. Don't see this as a way to convince your mom that you're right. There's no need to go there with either of them. You're not going to convince them. Much as it would be satisfying to win imaginary points though a debate approach, it's not a good long-term strategy for your relationship with your family. And your relationship is important, at least until you are self-supporting. (I'm NOT saying here that you have to agree with them, or believe what they want you to believe. I'm just saying that de-escalating the situation, rather than creating more drama, may be best for your future.)

I would advise listening to what the SP has to say. Not because he's going to convince you of anything (once a shelf is broken, it's not likely to get put back together). Just because it's the easiest way to avoid conflict, which you don't need right now. Don't make this a debate. Let him do most of the talking. You don't need to say a lot. Responses like "hmmm", "huh!", and so on, with a pause afterwards, are just fine. Don't feel like you need to fill any silence; a quiet, calm demeanor can be helpful. Non-committal responses like "I will take your thoughts into consideration." can be useful. Echoing back what was said to you can be good: "So, you're saying that some non-church web sites may have inaccurate information. Hmmmm. <pause>" Identifying the feeling being expressed can be useful: "I can see that you are very concerned for my future. <pause>" Shutting down things you don't want to discuss is ok; this often works best if you change the subject as part of your response. "I'd rather not discuss personal sexual issues. Tell me about the website you run." You can set boundaries by repeating the boundary over and over again. You don't need to explain further. "I am happy to listen to what you have to say, but I prefer to take it all in and think about it rather than sharing my immediate feelings. <pause, let him respond>" "I am open to hearing your thoughts on the church. I am not here to debate anything. <pause>" "I don't want to debate specific items of doctrine. <pause>" "I am not here to debate you. <pause>" You can shut down any nonsense if you like. "I want to be clear, I am not interested in drinking alcohol or getting tattoos." "This is not about a desire to rebel."

You don't need to promise to do or not do anything. You can end the meeting with "I appreciate the concern you and my mom have for me. I know you are acting out of love. I will take what you've said under consideration."

Good luck. And take that picture down!!!

Remember also to recognize authority fallacies for what they are (might want to review this particular flavor of logical fallacy before going in). It's amazing how few arguments are left when you don't allow them to say it's true because "someone in authority" said so.

Just remember the burden of proof is not from you to them. The burden of proof is from God...through his representatives to act in his name here on Earth.

TL/DR: It's not your fault the church is full of lies.

Ugh. I'm sorry. I hope you come out alright on the other side. Remember he has no actual power over you. Your parents only have legal power over you, they can not control your thoughts and one day you'll get to make your own choices.

Ugh...

Someday, you will be living on your own and won't come under mom's jurisdiction. Truly a beautiful thing when that happens. Until then, we're rooting for you to get through this.

There are a lot of different ways to go about this depending on your situation. The very fact that a meeting was scheduled indicated your mother is not a reasonable person, so it might possibly be in your best interest to play dumb and say you found it interesting but non-convincing, then go through the motions of membership until you can move out.

Unless you think raising a shitstorm is worth it. If so, unload on him. Don’t let him feel like knowing about Joseph Smith’s fraud and sexual predation is something you should feel guilty about. YOU shame HIM for participating in the fraud and lying to those under his stewardship

Return and report!

" My mom is freaking out, you know if I was reading that the earth was flat she would not have blinked and eye because the evidence shows it is round. But her freaking out about me reading the CES letter is kinda the reaction I would expect if she were afraid I was going to find out the church is not true"

If you are a believer in Jesus Christ, emphasize it . Don't put up with any false accusations of you not believing in God. Rather, put their feet to the fire by challenging their inconsistent, and always-changing, doctrine.

Among the questions to ask:

• Alma 7:10 - Why do even at least some Mormon leaders admit that Jesus Christ was born in Bethlehem (which is the factual truth)? Scholars agree Bethlehem was not a suburb of Jerusalem.

• Related to that, why does the church celebrate Christmas in December, when just a few years ago at GC none other than David Bednar claimed that "we know by revelation that Jesus was born on this date [April 6]?

• Alma 34:35 - Why does the church believe in second chances for people who didn't believe, through baptisms for the dead, when this passage seems to contradict it?

• 3 Nephi 9 - Is this the same Jesus Christ that so loved the world that He was willing to die on the cross for the sins of everyone?

• Deuteronomy 13:5 - Does Joseph Smith's "King Follett Discourse" coming only weeks before his death give credence to the Biblical prophecy that Joseph Smith got what he had coming? Read thoroughly and closely examine the first 12 or so verses of Deuteronomy 13.

• Why is Kolob never mentioned anymore within the church, not even during sacrament meetings?

I may have missed it, but when is the appointment?

I like the idea of acting uninformed and going through the CES letter and asking for help in reconciling the information (or better yet, go through the church essays, since nobody can claim they're antiMormon).

Just remember you are surrounded by the good wishes and strength of every single person here. I wish we lived closer so some of us could be in the hallway, the parking lot, or at the nearest pizza place, waiting for you. I would surely be part of that group.

You are in the right. You have done nothing wrong. There should never, ever be a situation where seeking for information and truth is discouraged or condemned.

Hang in there - we care about you!

Yo shit, that's literally my greatest fear as a 16 year old. That and them sending me to conversion therapy afterwards.

Don't be afraid to point out any manipulation tactics he uses. Trying to get you back in line with fear, guilt, threats, invalidating your concerns etc--so common.

"President, I want to serve a mission and the Elders/Quorum Pres/whomever told me to check it out so I would be prepared because this is what I will face every week in the mission field."

It will be alright cousin. I’ve not been in your exact shoes because I’m ex Jehovah’s Witness, but I know how hopeless a position of none belief in your parents religion feels. Stay strong, and one day this will be a distant memory.

Stay strong my friend

You also have the option to just say no. Or just not say anything.

Tell the stake president he used to have the light in his eyes and in appearance. Not lately though. Then follow up with a Spousal Abuse question.

Sorry. I just hate this church so god damn much.

I haven't read everyone else's responses yet, but I think the most important thing is just to stay calm. I know in the Mormon culture one might think "oh shit! The Stake President!" but just remember he's just another guy with an opinion. Since the church isn't true, his priesthood is make believe, and his "authority" over you or anyone else is vaporware. It literally doesn't exist, unless you pretend that it exists and grant him power over you. That doesn't mean to be rude to him, confront him, or anything else. Just stay calm and talk to him like you'd talk to anyone else. You don't have to bow and scrape to the man, but that doesn't mean it's right to be a dick to him either. He's probably some guy that lives not all that far from you, has a day job, mows his lawn on the weekends, fucks his wife from time to time, and just tries to get through life the best he can, like the rest of us. He just happens to imagine that the Creator of the Universe picked his name out of a hat and gave him a little authority.

Be confident. That's how they get you. They make you feel weak. You are not.

You have the truth on your side, make us proud!!!

Should have told her you were looking at porn. Safer.

Good luck. From one exmo teen to another.

"If we have truth, [it] cannot be harmed by investigation. If we have not truth, it ought to be harmed." 

President Reuben Clark

Since When is investigating your beliefs a bad thing?

Oh, thats right... Always.

Keep questioning friend and follow your own truth, not that of others.

Here are a few topics outside the CES letter which I am sure he is versed in. I would lead by asking him if the LDS manuals are honest.

Define honesty first. Use their own definition found here:

Lying is intentionally deceiving others. Bearing false witness is one form of lying. The Lord gave this commandment to the children of Israel: “Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour” (Exodus 20:16). Jesus also taught this when He was on earth (see Matthew 19:18). There are many other forms of lying. When we speak untruths, we are guilty of lying. We can also intentionally deceive others by a gesture or a look, by silence, or by telling only part of the truth. Whenever we lead people in any way to believe something that is not true, we are not being honest.

Then ask him about these:

The Lorenzo Snow manual on tithing is completely false.

https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-of-presidents-of-the-church-lorenzo-snow/chapter-12-tithing-a-law-for-our-protection-and-advancement?lang=eng

The rain never happened or the prophesy. The whole thing was made up. http://mormonarts.lib.byu.edu/works/windows-of-heaven

The movie was made to get people to pay tithing when the church was struggling financially. Lorenzo went to St. George but never prophesied rain. Also, you can pull up weather data and see that the drought continued for years afterwards. So, the church made a movie and committed financial fraud to get people to pay and the story remains in lesson manuals to this day.

For added fun, here is his patriarchal blessing: http://lds-church-history.blogspot.com/2013/01/lorenzo-snow-1836-15-december.html

Gordon Hinckley

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1991/10/our-mission-of-saving?lang=eng

"Not one of that company ever apostatized or left the Church because every one of us came through with the absolute knowledge that God lives for we became acquainted with him in our extremities.’” (Manuscript in my possession.)"

That is utter bullshit, a lot of people left. In fact two of the captains left. Here is a link to the Nebraska Historical society of the tail of one of those captains who not only left but SUED Brigham Young to get his stuff back.

http://www.nebraskahistory.org/publish/publicat/history/full-text/NH1983Ahmanson.pdf

Lastly, I would read the Lowry Nelson letters.

http://thoughtsonthingsandstuff.com/lowry-nelson-exchange/

Ask why the LDS essay on blacks and the priesthood says it was not taught doctrine when the letters from the First Presidency clearly say it was doctrine.

Finally, if you could go back in a time machine to 1948, what side would you take? Would you listen to the prophet on blacks and the priesthood or the world? How can you tell the will of god when the prophet is wrong?

Good luck!

Do you have to go? I mean, unless you want to. But, could you tell your mom, I don’t want to do this, I don’t feel comfortable with this, please don’t try to force me to do this, etc. i know I’ve been an adult too long and an exmo too long to remember what this stuff is like, so maybe saying no isn’t an option? If you don’t want to go, I would try to avoid doing it.

Like mentioned earlier, stick to a few of the topics and take a hand written list to help keep the conversation on topic. Be genuinely interested in his responses. It’s always good to be informed on any topic, especially since it sounds like your family won’t be apostatizing any time soon. Having a well articulated response has been the best way to get my family to respect my position.

Definitely record it!

So how’d it go?

I don't think that is an encounter that you can win. All the people who are sharing talking points are being unrealistic because a word from the SP and your parents can make your life difficult. It's my humble opinion that this is your time to keep your head low. Just say that you were curious and that you are really skeptical of the motives of its author. In a couple of years when you are free of the authority of your parents, you can run the black flag up the mast and live your life on you own terms.

You got this...you’ve done nothing wrong and your SP has no power over you, he is just another dude. Remember that when you go see him.

Mormon version of Rehab? Going to see the SP?

He can't change your mind, he can't force you to believe in anything, you are going to get guilt tripped. If you still live with your parents and they require you to go to church fake it for now until you are old enough to bounce the hell out

They're going to try and make you feel like a bad person. Stand your ground and ask him to look at it with you.

1. They talk in circles, recognize it and call him on it. 2..He may want to know where you got the CES Letter. 3. If a recording pops up it will be obvious where it came from. You have all of with you, Peter.

Good luck. Stan will be with you in spirit.

Well now you can request to have your mom in all private meetings with leaders. So, given that it is highly likely he’s going to ask you about your porn habit, tell him you want your mom in the room with you, just like the new policy says.

Then let him try anything!

Make sure she’s in that room with you. Be confident and speak the truth.

Ootl, what’s the ces?

Or you could sneak out and go get food instead

How are you doing tonight? Are you okay?

You don’t have to say shit. Just make him talk.

Just ask why Ballard and Oaks lied about the church never covering anything up in November's Face To Face.

This is a real question I want answered.

Will get link.

Edit:

Here is the link: https://www.lds.org/broadcasts/face-to-face/oaks-ballard?cid=HP_SU_19-11-2017_dPFD_fBCAST_xLIDyL1-B_&lang=eng

Go to about 46:30. Ballard says the church has never covered anything up and specifically is speaking about the first vision when on the JSPapers website you can literally see where J Fielding Smith cutting it out of the journal.

Also, why doesnt the Priesthood heal people? Why don't children at the hospital in SLC not die because of the priesthood ministering? There should be a statistical difference.

I wish I could be in that interview. I'd pay money for a sincere face to face interview with someone like that.

Yes, absolutely take Mom, Stand tall and strong. May her eyes be opened also.

Good luck man! My .02:

• If your SP brings it up, "Doubt your doubts" is equivalent to "doubt yourself." I cannot imagine that a loving god would want you to doubt your own intelligence and conscience.
• DON'T let him turn this into a worthiness interview. The church hiding information, like Joseph Smith banging every girl in town, has nothing to do with your "sins."

I’m so jealous, I wish the internet, r/exmormon, Mormon Stories, and the CES letter had been around before I gave in to the social pressure to serve a mission. Those things might have given me the courage to say no, and saved me from another 15 years in the church.

Please record it! If he is on the board of FairMormon and says anything off the wall or wrong it will be really important to have that recording.

Please record if possible. Fairmormon is a joke.

Good luck <3

Let us know what happens, if you're comfortable. Kudos to you for searching for real answers.

YOU ask HIM questions. He and TSCC have lots of explaining to do.

The stake president is more nervous, these guys have no answers for anything brought up in the CES letter.

Holy fuck. This kind of shit makes my blood boil.

My heart hurts for you. Hope it went well.

Good luck! Update us mate!

1- Think about taking your picture off the post. 2- Say as little as possible to the SP and your Mom about it. 3- You’ve done nothing wrong and it’s not your fault the church isn’t true.

Don't argue any doctrinal points with him. You will probably get buried. Just say you prayed about the truthfulness of the CES letter and received a burning in your boob that it was true. Say that you NEVER had that feeling when praying about the Book of Mormon. Stick with that as it is very hard to argue with one's feelings.

Then tell your SP to take a shot at disproving the CES letter. Many have tried...all have failed. Tell him to take his time and get back to you.

Good luck.

I can tell by the look on your face that you are awesome. Truly!

Good luck!

Go directly to SP. A total bishop flyby.

Don’t tell him anything

You got this man. I believe in you! Reminds me of when my SP called me in to talk to me about not going on my mission. It was very uneventful, unless you count his many tears, and emotional bearing of testimony. Hopefully your will be the same. Good luck! -edit, spelling

Oh honey, you’re a good kid. Never let them crush your curiosity and desire for the truth.

It boggles my mind that reading the CESLetter is now reacted to the same way as if you had committed a sin. Interview with SP? Why? The parents can’t address “anti Mormon” information? Really?

... I wonder if he is okay.

Mother be like "Quick! Let's get a man to bully the kid into doing what we want!"

They escalate this to the SP's that quickly? What ever happened to chain of command, return n' report type stuff?

Non consensual interview. :( Good luck bro!

Go with the attitude that you want to hear both sides of the story and you'd love to hear what he has to say. But make sure he understands, at the end of the day, that he is not going to have the last word. You are going to continue your investigation by reading and asking others.

"I appreciate your input and I'll let you know how it goes. I've got my work cut out for me."

Priesthood leaders only have the authority you give them. He is just another dude. He eats, sleeps, and poops just like anybody else. You may be a young man, but you are still a man. A man who is free to think and ponder and question, and perhaps most importantly, free to doubt.

Good luck, buddy. You're doing nothing wrong. You're looking for answers to a concerning history.

I like the tie orientation. It's like a symbol of what you want to do to yourself right now.