I am a former Bishop who has been been down the rabbit hole for 1 year and sent this e-mail below to my Stake President. I guess there is no going back now...thoughts?

Very very good and more concise than my letter! You are clearly coming from a sincere place.

It is not just the sexist polygamy and shocking polyandry; its not just the 100 years of institutional racism; its not just the false translation of the Book of Abraham and Kinderhook Plates; its not just the lack of archaeological, anthropological, and linguistic evidence for the Book of Mormon; it's not just the un-explainable anachronisms within the Book of Mormon; it not just the confusingly identical FreeMason & LDS Temple ordinances; its not just the contradictory versions of the First Vision; its not just the confusing timeline fact of the First Vision, and angelic appearance of John, Peter, James and John being left out of the Book of Commandments; its not just that Joseph Smith disobeyed every rule in Section 132; its not just the mind-blowing Mark Hoffman affair; not just the worst terrorist attack in US History (Mountain Meadow Massacre); not just the ungodly and un-Christlike fear and persecution of LGBT members...it is obviously the shear weight of all of it combined that makes me doubt. I hope that makes sense.

That's the paragraph that we all include. I was bemused and amused to find that every person who read my letter said, "I already knew all that stuff and I'm fine with it... how did you not know that stuff? Maybe they were teaching things differently when you went to church." It's a blatant lie. They literally scan over that stuff and have this vague dark cloud arise that they use as blinders. They do NOT know that stuff. What is usually true is that they are aware that there's something they heard about that once [OR never heard of it] but think there are probably answers to it and they're positive they could solve it if they did a little research. = putting it on the shelf. I am so tired of people looking at a list like that and literally saying "I know all that and I have no issue with it." BULLSHIT!

a chocolate colored egg rock that he put in a hat and that it glowed the words until the scribe wrote them down

This should be enough for most rational people right there. I mean, seriously, your whole religion is founded around a guy looking at a magic rock in a hat ? Fucking please.

First off, I empathize with your distress. If you were anything like me (like many of us), the LDS church was one of the most (if not THE most) important things in your life. For me at least, every major life decision was made while considering what my duty to the church was. Your plans for the future, plans for your children, plans for you and your spouse were wrapped up in your duty and life in the church.

To be faced with the prospect that something you have devoted so many hours, tears, sweat, and dollars too is a fraud is a terrifying and earth shattering concept so, let me say, you are not alone.

I know that you are desperately looking for some piece of information that makes all of your issues fit within the framework of a "true church".

I am sad to say that it doesn't.

If I can be clairvoyant enough to predict your Stake President's response (if there even is one). He may "counsel" you to stop looking so much into these issues. Stop reading "church history and anti-Mormon literature" and instead focus on reading the BOM, fasting, praying, and (of course) paying your tithing. He may tell you that those issues you have are just Satan trying to deceive you. He may tell you that happiness can only be found within the church, and that life without the church is filled with sorrow and despair. He may try to deflect from church doctrine and history and instead focus on all the "Good that comes from the church". He may talk about the church's emphasis on "Families". He may hold your family spiritually hostage and point out that if you leave, you won't have your wife in the next life.

And, he may just not respond at all.

Only you can decide whether that response is satisfactory to you. It wasn't satisfactory to me, nor to many/most/all of the people on this forum.

What I can tell you is that life is so much better when you aren't shackled down to a false belief. When you come through the tunnel and see the light for the first time, you are amazed that you ever bought into it in the first place. Suddenly, you become your own man, seeing the world anew. It was a shock to me that "the world" isn't a depraved place filled with sorrow. It is just people who are trying to do the best they can with what they have. People who are happy and people who are sad (just like in the church).

I found out that having an occasional beer or glass of wine can be a truly enjoyable experience. And sharing a glass of alcohol can be a quick way to break down barriers and make new friends.

I found out that I can spend time with people I actually enjoy being around rather than basing my friendships on belief.

I found out that I have so much more time to spend with my family when I don't have 6 hours of meetings each weekend.

I found out that I don't have all the answers. I found out that there are some questions where the only appropriate response is "I don't know". I found out that science's greatest strength isn't that it "Knows everything" (it doesn't) but that it is constantly revising and changing its position to stay consistent with facts.

Last thing, you expressed a fear of "resigning" from the church. You don't have to. I haven't, and I don't have any plans to do so in the future. My name is still on the rolls. My wife still attends and I attend with her out of support. The bishop of her ward knows I am an atheist apostate and doesn't ask me to do stuff. When they do ask me to do a calling, I tell them "no".

I interact with the church as much (or as little) as I want to, and so can you.

I wish you the best.

Fantastic letter, nice job. Please let us know if you get a response.

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Hi! I like the question about the 116 pages. It's very incriminating.

Very well said and thought out. You won't be getting those answers. The good news is, it's not so bad here on the outside.

Good stuff. I enjoyed the read.

I like all of these points except for number 1.

The idea that a computer algorithm can give a definitive answer about authorship is, to me, debateable. Anyone able to read can see similarities. I will grant you that. But the same process of comparing phraseology and word usage and style and the like using a computer has also been used by BYU to claim that each author in the BoM is a unique and separate individual.

My point is that just because someone determines parameters for such a program and analyses it with a Computer does not make it some simple slam dunk of science. Any such computer program should first be used against known literary works as a test of calibration. For example, can that same algorithm differentiate between Canterbury Tales and the Ormulum (another work written in Middle English)? Can it disntinguish a book by Hemingway from a fake Hemingway manuscript? Can it see as identical an early work by Shakespeare with a later one? I have never seen proof that such programs are capable of this. Which makes such an exercise little more than, "these books sound similar aaaaaaand yep, my computer that I programmed agrees".

Anyone who reads both sources (the BoM and the Late War for example) will see strong similarities. But wht does that mean? Certainly there are large portions of the BoM that do not appear in the other works you listed.

To be brief, I think there are far more compelling evidences against the BoM than word print analysis. The massive amount of contradictory archaeology is a big one. People seem to shy away from this but I don't understand why. For the BoM to be true, it would be like finding that under the ruins of Rome we find massive amount of ruins of the Han Empire (ancient Chinese empire) that must have coexisted with the Romans.

Now, would such a discovery be impossible? I suppose in some sense not. The physical laws of the universe don't make it impossible. But it is so mind blowingly unlikely as to easily be seen as impossible by anyone who gives it a moments thought.

This is how likely it is that ancient Hebrews co-occupied Mayan lands at the same time as they Mayans without leaving a trace. It is just as likely as ancient Han co-occupying Rome at the height of Roman power. It is so nonsensical, it should be immediately dismissed by everyone.

That to me is more compelling. But otherwise I found the list a strong rhetorical gauntlet.

And this!!!! "Since we still have Joseph's seer stone, why dont the Brothern put it in a hat and ask it where the Book or Mormon actually took place?"

Stake President (ignoring everything you said): Well, of course, challenging the Lord's true church only comes about because of pride and sin.

That is the response I got. I hope you get a better one! At the very least, the SP will have one more item to try and support on his shelf.

Really great letter! Nicely done how you boiled it down to 10 points that are meaningful, yet substantiated with facts, not just emotion-fueled (such as, why are the q15 such homophobic pricks? That would not have been helpful.) looking forward to hearing any follow up.

And you hit on my number one problem. Not a single issue, but ALL of them, combined together.

thank you for sharing this.

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A paragon in every aspect. Wow. Nice to read that your wife is as reasonable as you appear to be.

We do have our fair share of assorted lists and letters of all shapes, stripes, and sizes--many of us seem to feel compelled to write one after all, whether or not we actually do--but I particularly like yours for its just-right combination of length and heft. Thank you.

a chocolate colored egg rock that he put in a hat and that it glowed the words until the scribe wrote them down exactly as they appeared and would not disappear until they were written down perfectly

why did the original manuscript of the Book of Mormon ... need to be edited, corrected, updated, and altered in 3,000+ places?

Either believe in super powers (and the super powers are somehow real) or don't. They cannot have it both ways.

At some point it must become incumbent upon tscc to provide answers as opposed to leaving members to speculate and figure out this stuff on their own.

Great letter OP! Keep us posted.

This is incredible! Saving for future reference. Please update us in a future post with his reply. The spirit™ is telling me that you will be resigning your membership in the near future due to your stake president’s inability or unwillingness to answer these questions. Best of luck to you.

I love putting this back on the ecclesiastical ladder letting these move as far up as they can get. Minds need blown and people need to see that the messiness goes forever.

If your SP has not been entirely robbed of his ability to reason you might find yourselves discussing the batshit craziness of it all over a few beers somewhere down the line.

However, if he is already aware of the issues and prefers to continue in blissful ignorance, your well written letter will unlikely have any impact and you are merely farting against the wind.

I understand your sincere desire for answers. I also wrestled for years trying to find answers that would lead me back to full belief in the church.

Eventually I concluded every one of those questions can be answered with ‘Joseph smith made it up.’

Once I found that answer, suddenly everything clicked into place. The pieces all came together and it all made sense.

This is wonderfully articulate and detailed. It's also concise, and while it asks for reasons, it does not attack.

Please let us know what happens. I asked for explainations about three years ago and got the dodge ball, other than an email from Bishop Jerkface offering to meet with me to discuss a long list of things I was surely failing to do (reading scriptures, living the WOW, whatever). He assured me it would be a "kind" meeting. I did not feel it deserved the courtesy of a response.

I don't see a way out of the rabbit hole for you. Not because you're not open to it, and not because your SP might come down on you. There's no way to unsee things once you see them. There's no way to reconcile that a church that has lied for many generations is anything close to being a "true" church.

I admire you for sending the email. I hope your SP reads the things you cited.

Perhaps less doctrinal and more corporate strategy related, the church's adversarial approach to LGBTQ is disturbing. Suicide in UT is the leading killer of youth. Perhaps leadership can rationalize that its heavy-handed approach has no impact. Still, you'd at least hope that leadership would tread lightly until more research can be done and its impact analyzed. These men are unworthy of the power with which they've been entrusted.

I love putting this back on the ecclesiastical ladder letting these move as far up as they can get. Minds need blown and people need to see that the messiness goes forever.

Amazing letter!!!!! I am currently sitting as an Elders Quorum president. Going through the motions and it's killing me. I manage though. Very Brave of you! Let us know what happens!

Excellent letter. Please let us know what the stake president’s response is.

I just loved this: "If the seer stone was a real urim and thumin and Joseph was a seer and revelator...then when the original 116 pages of the Book of Mormon translation were lost/stolen, why didn't Joseph Smith use the seer stone in his hat to find out where this valuable treasure (word of God) was located?"

Very good letter.

I unfortunately think your response is to be threatened with a court of love if you don't shut up.

I hope that doesn't happen.

Very impressed with your words my friend. They are like a stone cut out of mountain.

These are really not questions. They are statements of fact that suggest Mormonism is what the Bible warned against; following false prophets.

Exceptional

The Late War

Giggity!

By what measure are you calling MMM the "worst" terrorist attack in our history. Shouldn't that go to the other 9/11 the one in NY? More people died.

You haven't cut the umbilical cord yet, but chopping at it with a machete won't help. After being out for more than 2 decades and seeing the journey of so many, there is certainly a pattern. Just about every dyed in the wool believing acolyte spends the second part of their transition trying to disprove what they learned in part one. It is tough. I basically disproved the church over about a 2 week period and then spent the next 2 years trying to disprove what I learned in 2 weeks.

It is tough. Tough to know that you have been lied to from birth, lived in a society based on an elaborate fabrication and been both emotionally and sexually repressed, all the while praising the prophet and the current "god led" leaders. I am certain it is even harder for you, a man who has spent so much of your time and energy working for the church, and all that you sacrificed in time away from your loved ones, money and every other sacrifice you made.

Best advice? You will be angry, if you aren't already. don't let it consume you. there is so much good in the world and so much outside the walls of the cult that can inspire and lift you up. And as you already know, you are not alone. Be assured that we see you as courageous and a man of strong character to do what you have done. Take pride in that.

And be with your family, don't keep them out of your struggle. I was lucky to get out with my family. So many have lost so much in the effort. Our thoughts are certainly with you. Best of luck and may your future be bright and fulfilling.

Leaving the church will not be the biggest mistake of your life. It may be the hardest thing you’ll ever do, but it is never wrong to learn and follow the truth. Good luck dude. We’re here for ya when/if the SP gives you unsatisfying nonanswers and/or gets offended by you even asking and insists the devil is influencing you to say all this.

Nicely stated. It’ll be interesting to hear his response.

Just curious, how was MMM a worse terror attack than 9/11? The number of deaths is drastically different. Or are you saying it’s the worst American on American attack?

I'm not as eloquent a writer as you, but I met with my Bishop yesterday to tell him of my intentions of leaving the church. One thing he said stuck out to me because I am having a "crisis of faith". He said, and I quote, "there is no logical or scientific explanation to know..." and he went on to talk about Joseph Smith and the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon.

I just can't. Seriously.

When they tell you that JOD is not approved by the church: https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/6et1mn/undeniable_proof_that_the_journal_of_discourses/

Am writing you tonight lowly of heart and spirit. Am reaching out to you asking for your help in keeping me from making the biggest mistake of my life...resigning my membership from the church!

Sounds to me like you on the road of no return. I sent my letter in with several examples like you. My one concern, in light of these listed concerns, it doesn't bother them!! Nephi murdering a man to steal from him does not bother them! I couldn't reconcile with them and they with me. It was a no-win situation.

I would share with my Wife some of the things that Bothered me. She finally told me to stop coming to Church.

Very concise and well-worded letter. But I'm not a fan of putting the responsibility of your actions on someone else's shoulders. If you have questions, then it's your responsibility to find answers. And if you can't find adequate answers, then that needs to be enough justification to determine your actions.

Great list of questions, same thoughts and qustions as my list, I hope there are answers, but I'm afraid we will never get answers. I heard new Church policy is avoid difficult questions. Oaks Ballard

Really great. Actually considering approaching my TBM husband with these questions and working my way up to CES letter.

Standing ovation! This was fun to read.

I never understood the racism - God/Jesus would never have treated any of his children any differently than another. Obviously it was man-made, don't care if that was society at that time - it was not the way of the Lord.

I really appreciate the way you wrote this- it very well says what I would like to say. I’m saving it for future reference.

Very good. Isn't it amazing how much time is wasted unraveling the mind control that has us entrapped from a very young age. About the same timelines for me as well. I hope we can all be free from it soon. Remember your sp is just a guy down the street and you are much more "aware" than he is. Here's to truth!

so foreign to what I was taught as a child and taught as a missionary

I think so too. Especially the principle of repentance. When you are perfect, no repentance is necessary, I guess.

Bishop

You have captured many of the issues. Mine is the Elijah appearance. How can one apostate named Warren Cowdery write a third person account of an angel restoring Sealing powers with out Joseph or Oliver EVER admitting to the event and it becoming the central point of all ordinances in the entire church? Ask your Stake President to find ANYTHING taught by JS regarding the event. You will find more teaching of men living on the moon than of the Elijah visit.

Excellent. Sadly, it is foregone he will have nothing I am afraid.

I had no idea that there has been computational text analysis done on the BOM and those other books, that's really cool. I have to go look that up

As said below...the Church has absolutely NOTHING to offer us, it's all an ELABORATE DECEPTION. Carry on Brother, you're not wrong.

NeverMo here with a question....what's the Mark Hoffman affair?

Nice username.

I love putting this back on the ecclesiastical ladder letting these move as far up as they can get. Minds need blown and people need to see that the messiness goes forever.

Well written. How long ago were you released as Bishop?

Do you have a source for the linguistic calculation computer on question #1? I'd LOVE THIS!

I'm right here with you, in similar shoes at the moment. I've been in (and currently am in) church leadership most of my adult life. If it wasn't for my wife and kids I would have dropped the church right away. But I'm taking my time with their best interest at heart. When my shelf broke, it was just destroyed. I've had a completely open mind to mending it but the only thing that makes sense is it's all a fraud. All those uninspired callings I had to give, priesthood blessings that didn't come to pass, inspiration that obviously wasn't, justifying my strong testimony of the BOM despite trying moroni's promise every time i read, justifying the church on racism, lgbt, polygamy, etc. All my cognitive dissonance departed in a single, heartbreaking moment that i can only compare to losing a family member. Then, came a mental peace and clarity that I've never felt. Great letter. I wish you the best in your journey. You're not alone.

I can’t help but think that polygamy came to a halt because of the law (Utah, you want to be a state, don’t you?)....and I can only guess blacks having the Priesthood came about because of the law... lawsuits maybe??

What is your source for point number 1?

His response will be interesting. The CES letter really got people to think. Funny as Gerald and Sandra Tanner have been teaching this stuff for 40 years. Mormonthink.com has a ton of good info, also predating CES. The discourses of Brigham Young took my belief in one weekend as it shows completely that BY was not a prophet.

This is an EXCELLENT summary, and your distress is well reflected here. There are NO satisfactory answers within the traditional "one true church" narrative of the LDS church. The very best you can get to is that maybe Joseph was removed as a prophet because he was starting to become corrupted by power (the "fallen prophet" concession). But that doesn't work for me and it doesn't explain why Section 132, the racist principles, the temple covenants, and the Book of Abraham are all still very much doctrine.

Remember it's the church who said it's either ALL true or a it's a fraud. I didn't create the binary proposition, but I was heartbroken to find out that it was most definitely not all true. Best of luck to you, Bishop!

Hate to be the negative Nellie but:

Really great content with too many adjectives and adverbs, many of them inflammatory. Don’t get me wrong —

I hope SP reads the entire email.

Courageous person you are. I've missed your other posts, hope family doing ok..

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Doesn't it seem logical that a tbm will say, "it doesn't matter how the plates were translated? Whether by U&T or by the stone in the hat. It's still obviously the word of god if he's looking in the hat. He can't be copying any text. There must be divine inspiration. Especially when compared to Emma's accounts of how he spelled out words he didn't know while looking in the hat." I think if you believe in the notion of an almighty god that has power to do anything. Thats not that weird at all? Preparing to talk to someone about all this, so I'm trying to go in prepared.

Response: "Dear Brother flaminsord, exactly how long have you been addicted to pornography?" /s

Your letter is thoughtful, intelligently written and powerful... I am saving your post to share with my wife someday (when she is ready). Thank you for sharing this. All the best to you and your family!

Wow, bishop, lay off the masturbation.

Sincere question... in your opinions... was JS just bat shit crazy to have NOT said “Just kidding! Just kidding!” when he was about to be tarred and feathered? Makes no sense to me for a guy who made it all up to say, “Go ahead, pour hot tar all over me” if he made it up. Your input would be appreciated ;)

This is a well thought out letter. I'm saving it for later. We will be drafting up something for our families and this has some great points. Keep us posted on his response.

Huh. I hadn't ever thought about #5.

Awesome letter. Can I share this?

Could you point me to a link or a site for your first bullet point? Id like to see that. I browsed through all three of those books and could see all the similarities, but I would love to see some hard data. Thanks in advance. And very well written. 👍🏼