CMV: esports should not be considered sports.

I think you're making a mistake by using Ancient Greece's classification of sports as your reasoning. The term has evolved over time. Chess is recognized as a sport by the International Olympic Committee. Fishing is recognized as a sport. Many people consider poker to be a sport.

If those things are considered sports, then it's unfair to the eSports competitors that they cannot be granted the same recognition.

I'll preface this with the fact that I follow traditional sports a great deal, and esports not at all...

"Competitive gaming" is analogous to "esports". I think everyone understands that the e- prefix suggests the clear difference between this activity and what one would naturally consider a sport. That is, the contests are performed electronically on a shared screen or multiple screens, either in person or over the Internet. The sports part of it- other than it being more marketable than "competitive gaming"- is probably more useful to signify the organization and scope of what it has become.

Rather than living room battles of friend vs friend, it has grown to vast leagues and tournaments, with carefully structured teams and large prizes. The audience, too, is much different. It is no longer the friends waiting their turn in on your couch, but tens of thousands of people packed into arenas or otherwise watching online.

To me, the aspect of "sport" that this term denotes is not regarding the physical ability or athleticism, but the spectacle of the events.

Bowling, Golf and Archery are all considered sports and all require a very minimum amount of basic activity. Furthermore they don't require the physique of something like football as they are mostly technique based. You can argue that being in better shape might be of consequence to archery (though it's still 90% technique), but with both Bowling and Golf it's basically superfluous. Golf is so non-contingent on external factors, people say you are basically stuck with your swing your entire life, and that the challenge of improvement with Golf is essentially overcoming your own imperfections. Additionally taking 3 large steps and rolling a ball is also minimalistically intensive. So the idea that sports require some sort of full body action is not valid.

As it relates to Esports, the amount of physical mechanical acuity required to make things happen on screen at a level that is competitive is comparable to both archery and golf as well as bowling. It requires minimal physical movement but the technique is essential to being good. You can't just haphazardly bang on a keyboard and win either, so there's also something to be said about hand eye coordination. Furthermore the best Esports players average between 230-300 actions per minute.

Lastly, and most quantifiably. Esports is physical enough to sustain injury. More than anything else, the fact that a player has enough movement to sustain injuries that inhibit performance is probably the best quantifying factor in this argument. You can say there's a lack of movement all you want, but becoming injured and impaired is a direct consequence of movement.

the point being that physical activity was beneficial to the overall mind and psyche.

If the ultimate point is that the activity benefits your mind and psyche, then why wouldn't we consider e-sports to be sports?

The argument always comes back to whether the operative term in the word "sport" is the competitive aspect or the physical aspect.

I'd argue the competitive aspect is the more important part, evidenced by the fact that we already define activities that require minimal physical activity (such as golf, or bowling) as sports. And we don't define certain very physical activities as sports no matter how much physical ability is required as there is no competitive aspect (such as jogging).

As far as the physicality of esports, it varies from video game to video game. Just as the physical requirements for curling and sportfishing are very different to the more physically demanding sports.

For this example I will use Starcraft Brood War in Korea, which is the original eSport. While FPS eSports was developing in the west simultaneously out of the Mountain Dew Dorito chips trash talking gamer image, eSports in the east was intimately linked with real sports.

The way sports are run in Korea are such that you'll have a major company owning a franchise, such as SK Telecom or Samsung, or KT "Korean Telecom" Rolster. These franchises span across multiple professional sports. Imagine if the New York Yankees in addition to their Major League Baseball Team had a NHL Hockey Team, NBA Basketball team, NFL Football team and they were all called the New York Yankees. This is how many professional sports teams in Korea are, only their franchises also included eSports teams as well, for starcraft, sudden attack, counterstrike, kart rider, etc...

For example SKT T1 - their korean site looks much better

Now these professional organizations are run the same way that any other major sports organization is structured and run. With scouts, coaches, rosters, training squads. The korean head of esports KeSPA is a korean Congressman and is mentioned in the same breath as other sport charimen, and for a while the Korean Air Force had it's own starcraft team Air Force ACE so that progamers could do their mandatory military service and continue their careers.

Keep in mind this has been going on since about 2000ish in Korea. This has been on mainstream television on 2 24 hour tv channels dedicated to 'esports' contents (one of them pretty much is just a Go / Baduk channel tbh though)

Now that's to set the stage as far as context is concerned.

As far as the physical aspect of it, starcraft is a highly mechanical sport. There is a physical limit and cap to what you can do called APM and back in brood war, having less than 400 APM would be the equivalent of being a slower soccer player.

This is exhausting. Some of the faster players would essentially be playing Flight of the Bumblebee on the piano for 30-40 minutes, except on a keyboard along with a mouse along while also having to deal with the strategic competition portion of a game. There was a Day9 Daily where he talked about trying to get really fast APM and just coming out of a game completely drenched in sweat over how hard that is to do. I remember back when the first foreigners (non koreans) were trying to go to korea to train with the korean teams, the korean players would make fun of them for being out of shape physically. Why? Because if you were a fat out of shape western stereotype basement gamer that meant you physically would not be able to keep up with the competition. You physically would be left in the dust and you wouldn't have the stamina to stay mentally sharp and physically at your peak.

So when you say there is no physical training, I have no clue what you are talking about because in Korea, that is taken as seriously as the baseball team

Until you have video game competition where you just plug into somebody's brain rather than having them manipulate something physically like a baseball bat, golf club, tennis racket, or mouse and keyboard, I'd say eSport deserves to be considered Sport.

The fact that they label themselves as e-sport seems to heavily imply that they recognize themselves as a subcategory of sports: one where electronic equipment is involved. As long as they clarify that their sport is an e-sport, and they call themselves competitive/professional gamers rather than athletes, I don't see a problem with the nomenclature.

Video game players are likening themselves to elite athletes without the same amount of training it takes to become a true athlete

Source for this? I can't imagine any context where a professional gamer claims he's an athlete in gaming and isn't laughed off the stage.

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Playing a video games is not a physical activity, but professional esports player and professional sportsmen have the same job: They compete with each other for the entertainment of viewers.
A lot of people do not understand what it is to be a professional sportsman. You're not paid a lot because you're very skilled and strong, you're paid a lot because you provide good entertaiment.
ESPN doesn't deal in sport as a physical activity, it deals in sport as an entertainment, this is why they stream League of Legends.

I think by calling esports actual sports, we are undermining the importance of physical activity.

Can you explain your thought process behind this?

They don't call them sports

They call them esports. Nobody is arguing email is different than mail cause of course it is that's why it's called a different thing

The only reason for government classification to call it a sport is that there are permits for travel visas based on being an athlete. It's just a formality

There have been plenty of good responses so far about the physical dexterity needed to play games at a high level, but something I don't think has been addressed yet is WHY we need them as "sports." This isn't just to be trendy and say, "Oh, yeah, we're athletes too, see how legitimate we are?"

In some countries, like Russia, there's not an official government recognition of eSports as an actual legitimate job. This makes it impossible for people to get visas and travel throughout Europe to compete in tournaments. I don't have the article on hand right now so I'm a little foggy on the details, but I'm pretty sure this is what happened to Diamond (and others) from League of Legends. He lost his job, his team, everything because of visa issues and countries deciding "He's just doing this to play games, it's not a real job" despite him probably making more than them. Thus the push to define them as regular sports, which has been established as a real profession over centuries. No country is going to say that "athlete" is not a real profession in this day and age.

ESPN shows poker and chess. You may think of those as more of a game than a sport but what about hunting or fishing? What about golf? Where do you draw the line that decides the level of physical exertion necessary for something to be considered a sport?

I think by calling esports actual sports, we are undermining the importance of physical activity. Why not just simply call it what it is: "gaming?"

What do you think the real difference between a game and a sport is? Esports are only really talked about at a professional level; if I go online to play a game of Counter Strike with some internet strangers, or even with friends, I doubt you're thinking of esports. Similarly if I go and play Basketball with some people or friends it's normally referred to as a pick-up game, not a sport. Both Basketball and Counter Strike become sports when played competitively.

The above is largely semantics, as is the argument in general, but there are also legal ramifications to recognizing a sport officially. Players in recognized sports in the US are able to obtain visas to play their sport in their team's country. In esports, this allows formation of multinational teams that can practice with consistently fair ping.

Out of curiosity - in your opinion, do you consider Professional Drone Racing a sport? Or is it an eSport? Both? Neither?

I ask because your answer may influence how best to approach trying to CYV.

In Greek culture, sport was hugely emphasized for the physical benefits it gave.

And if we were sitting in Athens 2500 years ago I'd probably agree. In the 21st century however there's lots of different ways of looking at what a "sport" is. Should e-sports be considered a sport by a charity trying to get kids healthy? No. Neither should horse dressage or clay pigeon shooting, both of those are olympic events. Should they be considered a sport by ESPN? Yes, because they're a competition that attracts large audiences and is growing rapidly.

I think by calling esports actual sports, we are undermining the importance of physical activity

No, everyone is well aware of the importance of physcial activity and this does nothing to change that.

Video game players are likening themselves to elite athletes without the same amount of training it takes to become a true athlete.

Do you know the time it takes to be an elite athelete in every sport? Do you also know the training it takes to become a top player in esports? Some superstars appear at 17-18 and yes it takes them time to develop but they can still be top players.

Some sports are more competitive and take more training than others, making it to the top of a big sport takes a lot of effort but making it to the top of a smaller sport requires less effort. Esports are new and therefore the competition is growing and not at its peak, 50 years ago top athletes played at an international level at multiple sports. Today this would be unheard of because the time you have to invest simply means you can't play two sports at the highest level.

Esports do not demonstrate physical skill, only mental skill. Their maneuvers with the mouse and keyboard or controller are not impressive at all to me.

Not all sports are particularly impressive to me, not all sports equally emphasise physical and mental aspects. That isn't an argument they aren't sports, just that you don't like them. The speed and precision required my most e-sports is at a very high level that you won't be able to replicate without years of practice. It minght not impress you but it's still worthy of note.

ESPN is discussing deals to stream League of Legends on their channel.

Do you think ESPN was thinking about the Greek ideals of sport or the fact they would make money? Esports are growing, fast. Tournamnets are worth millions of dollars in prize money and attracting a viewership that most regular sport channels would kill for. There's money in it and therefore the "sport" channels will incorporate it because if they don't someone else will.

In the end it's not that different from when "extreme" sports began to become more popular, esports aren't the same as most sports, but niether is gymnastics or diving or clay pigeon shooting. All of these things however are "played" competively and have people that are interested enough to follow them. They are also best presented in a sports style with tournaments, live commentary, analysis etc.

Darts is widely considered a sport, but I'd hardly say the majority of darts players are athletic in the traditional sense of the word.

It requires a great deal of hand-eye coordination, but so do esports. I'd say if you consider one a sport, it'd be hypocritical not to do likewise to the other.

It seems to be just a matter of definition. If, in your understanding, the category "sports" must include only activities which are based in physical athleticism or physical dexterity, then esports are not sports, and that seems to be the consensus among the main sports organizations, such as the IOC and SportAccord, although the latter recognizes activities such as chess, bridge and go, as mind sports.

Definition according to SportAccord

Their maneuvers with the mouse and keyboard or controller are not impressive at all to me.

But to some people it is. Enough to pay to see games. Enough to have 6mil$ prizes for top players. Who cares how it's labelled? It's a game, played in teams, that people want to watch. In that sense, it is the same as football or basketball.

First of all, "not impressive to me at all" is entierly subjective so how would one going about changing that? The input speed for something like starcraft certainly seems impressive to me? You seemed focused on the idea that certain physicality is less valid than other forms? Is a marathon runner less of an athlete because they can't throw like quarterback? Is a golfer less of athlete than a baseball player or visa versa depending on what muscle groups they work? A Starcraft player certainly has more developed hand muscles than a line backer.

Secondly, I'd like to point out that the push to get esports recognized as sports has little to do with cultural attitudes and much more to deal with legal definitions. Take for instance the case of Leffen, a Super Smash Bros. Melee player who was denied entry into the US because "Melee isn't a sport." The current push is to get recognized as athletes in a legal sense more than a cultural sense. This sentiment is not just founded on "feeling" like esports are sports but also that these visas have been already extended to chess players.

Cheerleading is called a sport, so why can't exports be one too?

I feel like at lest in the modern day that sports are more about watching people or teams compete at something than physical activity. The classic sports are physical because everybody has a body and can work towards at competing better with minimal equipment.

Older sports like football(soccer) just need a ball and something to mark goals, but newer sports like hockey, lacrosse (I know the Iroquois played way back when but it is really pretty modern in the western word as a sport) need more complex equipment to compete, making money and technique more important. Esports could just be all money and technique and a continuation of the trend

It's NOT a sport, that's why we have the distinction, the 'e' on the front. It shares some parallels with sports, but it's not so we call it something different.

What about recognizing esports as sports solely for the sake of allowing its players to be able to travel to other countries to compete? I know esports players have been delayed, or denied from going to other countries, that under an athletes visa.

From Wikipedia:

In 2013, Canadian League of Legends player Danny "Shiphtur" Le became the first pro gamer to receive a United States P-1A visa, a category designated for "Internationally Recognized Athletes"

There are laws and rules that an "official" recognition of an eSports grants, in the US we have a visa program that makes it easier for a sports team to get the best players.

League of Legends pro teams recruit players from other countries just like a soccer or hockey team might.

Until there's a gaming or entertainment visa, we should continue to regard it as a sport.

Their maneuvers with the mouse and keyboard or controller are not impressive at all to me.

Archery and sharp shooting are sports as well. Is that impressive to you?

As far as government goes: esports might as well be sports. whether you think "sport" should be designated for physical activity (which I would, despite watching more dota than football these days), the function of both of them is roughly the same. they need visas and other things like that just as as "real sports" do. It just makes more sense for a government to add it to the sports laws than make whole new legislation for them.

and for espn making deals with lol: they already made deals with poker, golf, and nascar. so there is precedent that they just want to showcase good competition over physical activity

An important thing to keep in mind is that a large purpose of getting the legal distinction of being a "sport" is to assist in acquiring visas for professional level players. Sometimes getting the authorization to travel has proven to be difficult, particularly in Europe, and has prevented some players from competing. I think that's why Russia recognized it as a sport. I don't think the industry really view itself as a sport, hence the name E-sport.

There are those who view it as something similar to a sport, but I think they are in the minority. And some of the elite players will practice upwards of 14 hours a day, just an FYI.

I don't necessarily disagree with your conclusion, but I take issue with some of your reasoning, specifically:

Video game players are likening themselves to elite athletes without the same amount of training it takes to become a true athlete. The mental training may be similar, but in actual sports, mental and physical training are emphasized. Esports do not demonstrate physical skill, only mental skill. Their maneuvers with the mouse and keyboard or controller are not impressive at all to me.

How are you quantifying how much training these people are doing? Top tier players play ~14 hours a day. The fact that it's not physically demanding means they spend that much more time honing their skills. Professional swimmers aren't swimming 14 hours a day, because they would die if they did.

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Should racing be a sport? There's a reason it's called Moto sport and why competitive gaming is called esport

Sports are valuable for their Greek definition, but that is not the only value of "sport". A lot of it is about team work and individual skill, pushing the limits of humanity. Tiddlywinks or Quarters or bocce ball fit your definition but not my definition. Which definition is sportier?

If no delta, please clarify your argument.

P.S. golf

There are many different classifications of "sports", where "sport" is the broad category and "esport" would be the subcategory.

For example, there is nothing inherently sporty about sitting in a car and making left turns for 500 miles but it is still difficult and a physical competition so we call NASCAR a "motorsport."

Skydiving isn't inherently sporty but it does take physical skill so we call it an "extreme sports."

There's nothing inherently sporty about sitting on a jet ski or standing at the wheel of a boat or fishing but it does take some sort of physical ability so we call those "water sports."

In the same way that it does take some sort of physical ability to be so good on the controls that you could beat the best players in the world at a video game. So, yes, esports will never be as physically demanding as your classic sports but that's why we give it a subcategory.

Essentially, we already make the distinction that not all sports are created equally so we subcategorize them to avoid any confusion.

Their maneuvers with the mouse and keyboard or controller are not impressive at all to me.

Have you ever tried your hand at these games against players of even moderate skill?

Esports do not demonstrate physical skill, only mental skill.

What is hand/eye coordination if not a physical skill? How about twitch shooting or micro management?

Video game players are likening themselves to elite athletes without the same amount of training it takes to become a true athlete.

This has literally never happened.

For all intents and purposes classifying professional esports as a sport is perfectly valid. The only reason for doing so is for travel Visas anyways.

Shooting is an olympic event, and does not directly involve athleticism.

Not to presume ignorance on your part, but have you ever attempted to play any sort of high APM video game versus a good opponent? Take Super Smash Brothers Melee for example. There is a lot of physical practice you have to put in to attain the level of control that these players have over their in game character. Consider the video, then realize that not only were those inputs rapidly executed, but due to the precision of the game engine, if they had accidentally brushed over another button in any of those sequences, they would have likely lost their life rather than take the opponent's. This requires an intense dedication to both physical practice, and an incredible awareness of the game engine and what any character can do in game at any given time from any given position, as well as an ability to cognitively 'read' your opponent's habits and strategies. Think of it like a martial arts competition where players are only fighting with their fingers. Just because there's some arbitrary amount of physical exertion you deem 'impressive' to you personally doesn't mean there isn't physical exertion happening. A top melee player "Hax" even had to get hand surgery after his intensely technical playstyle essentially crippled his hand. Do you not define Golf as a sport simply because it's not as physically strenuous as football? Golf is a primarily mental game, which requires a disciplined physical practice to understand the fine motions of your own swing, but little other physical practice. Similarly many Esports are primarily mental games which require a disciplined physical practice of the fine motions of your manual digits.

Sports aren't lauded because of the physical benefits they provide to their practitioners, that's called exercise. Are we going to pretend it's healthy to be a pro boxer or pro American football player? These players regularly suffer extreme bodily trauma that impairs them further as people than if they'd never done the sport at all. Sports are respected because we see people doing things that we personally know we aren't capable of and it impresses us. Just because you have no personal access to understanding what is so impressive about attaining the mastery required to play top level competitive video games doesn't mean it's not there.