PirateX84 ยท 1336 points ยท Posted at 15:39:47 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
It is kinda funny how everyone was hoping for more information on Snoke, but TLJ is like "Tough shit, here's Luke Skywalker drinking fresh milk from a space-ocean-cow-giraffe."
I saw the movie last night and the screen kept freezing (got a free voucher tho) and the whole theater cracked up when it froze on his goofy milk covered face
The headcanon that my friends and I have is that the milk scene is the first and only time Luke actually did that. He just wanted to get rid of Rey that badly.
I saw somebody here describe it as Luke thinking to himself "what would that little green shit yoda have done when I first met him on dagobah? How about I squeeze this crusty alien tit and make direct eye contact while I drink its milk. Perfect. Just like I was trained."
Iโm in the same boat just along for the ride, no matter what I enjoy it, but for people that do care about smoke, are you damn mind readers and can see into the future?? How do you know in the next movie they wonโt touch on it, you donโt, I get that thereโs unanswered questions, I want to know Things too, but wait to make your assumptions that theyโll never be answered once the trilogy is over, please and thank you
I think, respectfully, you might be missing the brunt of the criticism (both of the way they chose to play that and the film in general). It's not that we need every element in the movie explained, or that the movie has to match preformulated 'fan theories' or notions of how things should play out (and the situation is therefore not really rescuable by IX, even if its Snoke Backstory: the Movie).
I'll start from a distance. Like many of us, when I first saw TFA I was disappointed by how it was basically a rehash of ANH and of the original trilogy in general, but I got over this partially by telling myself that Kathleen and JJ had some tricks up their sleeves and future installments would take the series in creative, exciting directions which would justify extending the saga past episode 6. I thought Snoke's character would be a great way to do just that -- here's a major, awesomely designed, powerful character shrouded in complete mystery, with all avenues open, endless possibilies. I was sure that the direction they'd take Snoke would set apart the First Order from the Empire, the new Dark Side from the Sith, the new plot lines and dilemmas from the old, and give the new trilogy some much needed creative raison d'etre. I didn't have a fan theory about Snoke (though I did have a 'this is what I'd do,' like I think we all did), and I wasn't married to the idea that Snoke had to be how the new films distinguished themselves from the old -- but it did seem like the biggest opportunity. And this approach has strong antecedents in serialized mediums like comic books, where the heros stay largely unchanged from story to story, but a well realized and varied cast of villains keeps the whole endeavor fresh and interesting.
It didn't happen: not from Snoke, and not from anywhere else. Sure, the movie was not a rehash of TESB, but it was largely just variations on the same old themes, permutations of the same small bag of ideas. The First Order is just the Empire again. The Resistance is just the Rebels again. The central conflicts are all conflicts we've seen before, or minor riffs thereof. Luke isn't Yoda or Obi-Wan, but he largely develops along the same lines. Kylo isn't Darth Vader or AOTC/ROTS Anakin, but he also largely develops along the same lines. Rey and Kylo's relationship isn't a carbon copy of Luke and Vader's, but its not exactly at a great distance from that, either. And yes, some elements are new (Poe's character arc, for instance) but these feel tangential and are more-or-less confined to the less integral subplots.
Not that I'm trashing TLJ: I mostly really enjoyed it, it was fun and action packed and tense and emotional. But throughout all the sound and the fury, and the cheering crowds and the roar of starship engines, there was an ever-present and unmistakable screech of the creative bucket dragging across the bucket of the proverbial well. Rian's an exceptional person to have at the wheel and he gives it his all, but there's no disguising that creatively this series is running on empty. Snoke's non-reveal reveal, to me and perhaps to many fans though I couldn't say, is where this was most obvious and most distressing. To put it another way: if the Snoke reveal indicates the caliber of Kathleen Kennedy's hand before they announced the release dates (!) of the still-unwritten trilogy, and I'd argue that it does, then they should have spent more time writing and plotting the damn things.
Holy cow, thanks for taking the time for replying with a thought out response but Iโll have to read it after work, give me a couple hours to respond :)
reehdus ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 09:57:39 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
But wouldn't you just say Snoke isn't exactly a carbon copy of the Emperor but he follows the same mould?
If he followed the same mold, sure, but I was expecting him not to. This is more or less the point.
Let me get at this another way: I think when JJ and Kathleen told Rian Johnson that they were bluffing with Snoke and had no idea what to do with the character, and that his presence in TFA wasn't part of some clever set-up but rather caused by JJ just not being able to think up anything else, Rian made the right decision to kill him off like he did. The problem is that they never should have put Rian in that position in the first place. And its not just Snoke (even though he's the most obvious example), it's all over the film.
reehdus ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 03:17:07 on December 21, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I agree. Though I have no problem with removing Snoke and Phasma and limiting Maz's screentime, it looked like they were adding characters for the sake of symmetry with the old trilogy. Even Poe, who was actually supposed to die in TFA but they kept on due to the actor's performance, bloating the cast to much larger. Couple this with the existing OT members, how do you manage so many stories?
I definitely see your point, Iโd like to think I can see and agree with both sides to an extent, Iโm just more of a passive movie goer and I like to just enjoy things for what they are, but you seem more articulate and well thought out with your thoughts on the film than most youโd have to admit that.
Acespear ยท 11 points ยท Posted at 03:45:23 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
To be fair TFA itself never tries to create the mystery. No character ponders who this Snoke person is. I think fans have been trained by Marvel that everything ties to everything else, the dude with a beat up face HAS to be someone we know. I am happy we didnโt get a Darth Krayt situation but there is always the EU. I do look forward to the Canto Blight anthology explaining the backstory of every person in the casino though.
I don't think everyone was necessarily disappointed that Snoke didn't turn out to be someone we know, but rather that we never found out ANYTHING about him. We know all about Anakin Skywalker's descent into darkness and his return, but we have no idea how Snoke convinced Kylo Ren to turn to the dark side. We don't know how the First Order came about under the nose of the New Republic, and we don't know how Snoke is so powerful. I think they could have explained that satisfactorily in just a couple minutes if they really wanted to.
As for Canto Bight, I will be interested to read up on all those backstories. I was a bit disappointed that we didn't see any familiar aliens though. Not necessarily the same people, but we didn't see any species we'd seen before to indicate "Hey, this is the same universe as the rest of Star Wars!" The creators of the background characters, especially in the prequels, put in tons of work to create cool, interesting characters, and they just ignored all of those.
hanklea ยท 12 points ยท Posted at 06:59:05 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
We didnโt find out the details about Anakinโs fall to the dark side and how the Emperor rose to power until we got the prequels though. In the OT they never felt like they needed to explain it because THAT story was about Luke being the primary protagonist and it being his story. They filled in the gaps later.
And yeah sure Iโd love to know more about Snoke and how he seduced Kylo Ren to the dark side. I think it would be really interesting and add to the world.
But for the purpose of this particular story those details arenโt important. Interesting? Yep. Relevant? Maybe. Important to the story of Rey as the primary protagonist of the series and her story? Not so much. These are details that can be filled in later if there is a demand.
You make good points. As to your last point, it was very clear there was demand though. Immediately after TFA, a lot of people were asking about Snoke and his background. That could have warranted a minute or so of background. Maybe when Luke's describing why he confronted Kylo Ren, for instance. I don't know when the best time would be. But they easily could have and should have explained it, since there clearly was demand for it.
hanklea ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 07:37:41 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I donโt disagree with you... they could easily have edited out some of the casino stuff for this. And I am hoping that they might do this in the next film but if they donโt I understand why. You have to draw a line and edit stuff out somewhere or else you start having GRR Martin levels of superfluous backstory fluff in there. I guess in TLJ they decided that Finn and Poeโs character arcs were more important to the overarching storyline than filling in the Snoke/Kylo backstory. Letโs hope that pays off.
We didnโt find out the details about Anakinโs fall to the dark side and how the Emperor rose to power until we got the prequels though.
People seem to be forgetting that we didn't know jack shit about anything from the OT. All the background badassery and building-up of characters came from books, comics, and other media including the prequels later.
Acespear ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 07:55:26 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Iโd have to watch again but I donโt think we know anything about the emperor. Not even his name. He is just the emperor. We find his connection to Vader but other than that there isnโt much. That is about on par with Snoke.
You're right. If you watch the OT by themselves, remove all knowledge that you know from the decades of world building and try to watch only those movies, we really didn't know much of anything.
The Emperor was just the Emperor. He was the big bad guy. Hell, we didn't even know he had force powers until ROTJ, iirc. We just knew he was somehow powerful and that Vader served him.
People seem to be forgetting that we didn't know jack shit about anything from the OT.
I really don't think anybody is forgetting that. That was also a time where we knew nothing of this story. We also knew those were episodes 4,5,6 and they provided enough context to understand what had happened.
Now that we have 40 years of story, and now after the first 8 chapters, we really know nothing of the guy that facilitated the exile, and ultimate death of Luke Skywalker.
Mysterious Big Bad worked back then because we got thrown into this space story. We understood each characters role in that world. With years of context, the same just feels off to me if we view this as a 9 part story. Sure, we could get a bridge movie, or maybe JJ will expand on the plot lines he hinted towards in VII.
Having complex and well structured protagonists is important to me. Kylo Ren is an amazing villain, and more context about his fall would only add to that. I think there was enough time in this film to at least delve into how Snoke came into power after ROTJ.
Acespear ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 08:01:53 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
The lack of familiar aliens was annoying to me too. I just wanted to see an Ithorian or some other alien that looked familiar. I accept bigger galaxy but just a few thrown in would be nice. I didnโt memorize all these species names and appearances for nothing!
Why are you crying that other people disliked the movie you liked? I personally thought it was terrible. I'm glad someone enjoyed it. This entire thread is just you crying
_Mellex_ ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 21:21:18 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
It's so brave to like a film ๐
[deleted] ยท 10 points ยท Posted at 18:28:49 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
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[deleted] ยท 12 points ยท Posted at 19:09:29 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Tensions are running high. Next week or even next month I think we will see less finger pointing and more real discussion. I
The milk scene was the most pointless of the franchise
webu ยท 17 points ยท Posted at 20:38:04 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
The Max Rebo Band would like a word with you.
Also that scene shows us that Luke has been living off of the land & is perfectly content to continue doing so. It shows us that he wants to be on that island so much that he's willing to drink that shit.
I actually thought it was a simple way of instantly shattering Rey's REALLY high perception of "Master" Luke. If you watch her expressions leading up to that, she's really curious what Master Luke is doing with these creatures.
OP is all about that, gotta accept that soy boys are into this direction.
Holovoid ยท 539 points ยท Posted at 22:33:24 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Its funny you bring up Darth Plagueis. In a 3-minute monologue by Palpatine, we learned more about this dude who never appears on screen than we did about Snoke in 2 movies.
yoshi570 ยท 356 points ยท Posted at 23:55:14 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Ironic.
chrt ยท 99 points ยท Posted at 04:43:27 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
StarBarf ยท 47 points ยท Posted at 03:40:22 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Ignore the prequel trilogy for a second. Would you have been upset at the end of ROTJ that you didn't know barely anything about The Emperor before he died?
All we need to know about the Emperor in the OT is that he's the big baddie. Nothing else is essential because it's the introduction to the universe.
The ST takes place 30 years after the Rebels defeated the Empire, now suddenly there's a new Emperor very similar to the old one. Naturally, folks are going to have basic questions about this new Emperor like: "Where did he come from? How did he gain so much power? Luke, Han, and Leia appear to know quite a bit about him, so why were they unable to stop him over the past 30 years?"
The film's unwillingness to even approach tackling these questions is confusing, because it makes it seem like our heroes just sat on their asses and did nothing for 30 years while a new Empire arose from under them.
Well, Luke and Han did kind of sit on their asses and do nothing. Luke vanished after what happened with Ben and tried to renounce the Jedi ways. Han split from Leia after what happened with Ben and returned to being a rogue and smuggler. It seems like Leia is the only one who kept trying to be a leader and a hero and she was too busy with the New Republic to try and go after this shady Snoke dude. Where would she even begin?
They heard of him through other people? Why is this such a difficult concept to understand or believe in? My god, yโall need a play by play of the thirty years in between the original trilogy and this trilogy? Yโall need every detail on Snokeโs rise and exactly how Leia and Han found out years ago? What a bloody waste of screentime that would be, when there are more current pressing matters.
charkid3 ยท 13 points ยท Posted at 07:47:08 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
yeah, it was really important to go ransack a casino
That casino was where they found Benicio Del Lockpicker, who is the ENTIRE REASON the First Order was able to find out the Resistanceโs plans, which directly led to Holdo speedforce-ing into Snokeโs ship, which is what allowed Rey to escape and Finn and Rose to escape as well. Also, Canto Bight showed us those poor children who, at the end, showed the important message that there are downtrodden people who support the Resistance (meaning that the flame burns on) and that there are other Force users out there who could be trained to be Jedi some day. And also, Benicio Del Lockpicker is most certainly gonna show up again, so they had to introduce him as well.
charkid3 ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 18:22:06 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Any of the other ships, you know those ships that ran out of fuel and fell behind and just got blown up? They could have turned around and speed forced into Snoke's ship. What is your argument against this? Finn and Rose wouldn't have even had to be on their ship if not for the Casino scene. Rey could have found countless other ways to escape. The children part is too shoe horned in but sure, let's go with that this is important to the movie. Could have chosen any other way to introduce them into the movie.
Then honestly the characters should be even more curious about Snoke's background than we are. Luke watches the last of the Sith be destroyed and then this guy shows up and corrupts his pupil and then Luke doesn't even care to look into where he came from? For all we know there's a whole planet of Snokes waiting in the wings to take over the galaxy.
Surely you can see why discovering the source of Snoke's power/knowledge is a huge point of interest for people.
Holovoid ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:56:23 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
They heard of him through other people?
I know when I go around corrupting Jedi in training that's ALL I talk about at the bar that night.
Youโre right, Snoke has absolutely NO followers who could potentially let it slip about him. And bad guys never intentionally want their reputation to spread so that people may fear them or want to join them. Bad guys care nothing about fame or power! How very silly of me to forget that Snoke was a one-man show who absolutely wanted to keep his plans to take over the galaxy 100% a complete secret!
I would love a trilogy that takes place between RotJ and TFA. Matter of fact that's what I wanted but instead I got ANH 2.0 and ESB -2.0. The Battle of Jakku looks way more interesting than anything that happens in either movie. The Rise of the New Republic interestinf. Instead we got you know that thing that your heroes fought for in the OT? That's gone now and you don't get to see it. Oh and we're resetting everything to go.back to the rebellion vs empire 2.0. We xould have done any number od unique things but no we're going to make the same conflict. And we're not even going to tell you about how the evil guy came to power.
It means the Republic did but not our heroes. Leia was fighting them all along.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 10:59:30 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
We know that he is bad though. We know that grown men shit themselves upon learning that he's dropping by for a visit. We know that a brigade sized element of soldiers were probably standing around for five hours just to have a formation for his shuttle landing.
Zre6iT ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 06:45:02 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
That may be true, but it's incredibly frustrating that will never know basic answers about this new universe unless we read a bunch of supplemental materials. That's a failure of worldbuilding. Supplemental material should enhance our understanding of the universe, not explain essential facts we had no way of knowing before.
[deleted] ยท 21 points ยท Posted at 06:16:21 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
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Sattorin ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 12:23:04 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
The first thing you hear about The Emperor is that he has dissolved the Senate, erasing the last vestige of the Old Republic and putting full control in the hands of the territorial governors.
From that single line it's clear that he assumed power in some kind of galactic republic and has just finished consolidating his power.
They didn't have to have that line in ANH. It didn't impact the Luke/Vader plot in any way. But god damn it, it was world-building backstory to help you understand why the universe is the way that it is. And both TFA and TLJ are like "nah, just try not to think about why things are the way they are".
kalenrb ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 15:57:24 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I couldn't put it better myself. A single line tells us everything we need to know because it is a simple, familiar setup. In history, democracies fall to tyranny all the time.
How a single subfaction of the crumbling empire was able to achieve a military might beyond that of the empire is counter intuitive. In TFA it seemed Snoke would be the key to that. But in the end they just ignored all of it.
comm_pope ยท 29 points ยท Posted at 04:14:37 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
At the end of ROTJ, we knew the Emperor was the head of the empire, evil, Vaderโs boss, and dead. At the end of TLJ, we know Snoke is the head of the First Order, evil, Kyloโs boss, and dead...
In episode IV, it is said that the senate has been dissolved and Palpatine now has complete control over the empire. Through that, we are told that the Empire didn't come to be through some revolution but through a democratic election - similar to how Hitler came to power.
Meanwhile, Snoke is some guy with a big fleet that destroys some planets and appears to have complete control over the galaxy.
arnathor ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 08:19:27 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
IIRC the name โPalpatineโ is never used in the OT.
Holovoid ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:58:06 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I believe it was first used in the novelization for ROTJ, correct.
Regardless, even that was more backstory than Snoke received.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 04:38:59 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Okay: I interpreted the words that u/dudleymooresbooze typed above to mean that they are a fringe group in TFA, and through their successful assault now reign over the galaxy in TLJ.
The opening crawl kind of implies it. As does the constant "we're all that's left" talk by the Resistance. If there's anyone in the Galaxy standing in Snoke's way, Rian and JJ did a good job of making sure we never heard about them.
JJ showed us the galactic government blowing up along with their pretty large fleet, but we got no background on it.
kalenrb ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 16:02:50 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
What you describe is exactly what I would expect for the ST, but that is not the case. It is clearly stated in the crawls. All the more reason why backstory is super important.
If the ST just started with a new republic flourishing and Luke training young Jedi in his academy we wouldn't need backstory because that is the natural progression you would expect after ROTJ. You want o start somewhere else? Fine. But give us an explanation!
In addition to the other comments Rey also says that all the major systems will fall within weeks.
Blookies ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 01:17:18 on December 21, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Information is carried in extra-movie content. The First Order surprised the galaxy with the size of it's fleet immediately following the destruction of the New Republic and the fight on Takodana. The following days are spent traveling to and capturing major planets that are in disarray without their leadership.
Star Wars is a saga, we have a third movie in this trilogy left. Plus who knows what they will sprinkle in elsewhere(maybe we hear about snoke in the Han movie). Maybe we have a huge reveal thatโs being planned(or maybe not!). TLJ isnโt a stand alone movie where Rogue One could have been. I personally enjoyed the movie, like that a lot of things are unanswered and look forward to the next movie.
Yeah but who cares what we learn about Snoke now.... he is cut in half. If we learn anything, it'll be in reaction to the confusion everyone has right now.
StarBarf ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 09:57:54 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
There are other ways to take complete control over a government. I feel like you're being influenced by the PT a little too much here. Hell, the whole point of the prequel trilogy was to provide the details of how he came to power because there aren't any in the OT. We could be dealing with something similar here, who knows? And as others have said, this is a saga, you can't expect all of the answers in this single chapter. More may come in IX in regards to Snoke. Look at all of the history and flashbacks we got in VIII. Nothing is to say that we won't delve deeper in to the rise of the First Order in IX in order to make it come full circle. The beauty of the OT to me is that when you finish watching one, it feels complete, but then you get excited about the unanswered questions they each leave behind and what's to come in the next installment.
Snoke had to have come from the empire. The first order didn't pick up a random person to lead them. He rose from within the old empire. Other than that who cares about his story
That's a completely different situation. We aren't given any other background, so the Empire is the status quo, and it makes sense that there's an Emperor. He has wacky new Force powers, but that makes sense given that Vader kneels to him.
For the sequel trilogy, we know everything that preceded this, except the ~30 year gap between RotJ and TFA. We know that the Rebellion successfully destroyed the Empire, and they're interested in reinstating the Republic. Suddenly, some guy took over, killed the Republic, and established himself as ruler of the galaxy. He also somehow turned Ben Solo to the dark side, and we are given no information as to how that happened.
We know that the Rebellion successfully destroyed the Empire, and they're interested in reinstating the Republic. Suddenly, some guy took over, killed the Republic, and established himself as ruler of the galaxy.
All we know is some dude declared himself Emperor, established the Empire, dissolved the senate and now rules the galaxy.
He also somehow turned Ben Solo to the dark side, and we are given no information as to how that happened.
Obi-Wan tells Luke that Darth Vader killed Anakin, but not why or how and it's never actually explained in the OT at all.
Pretending that the situation with the Star Wars universe is the same now as it was for the OT is a little weird. We can accept the Emperor as the status quo, because nothing else has happened in Star Wars before that. Now, we know a lot more about Star Wars and its timeline, and that leaves large questions about Snoke's origins and rise to power.
Yes, Obi-Wan doesn't tell Luke about the explicit details of Anakin's fall to the dark side. But we didn't know Anakin at all then. We know Kylo's parents (extensive details on them), and we know his Master well too. How he could fall to the dark side with those influences is unexplained and could use some explanation.
But Luke being a bad teacher would just make Ben a subpar Jedi, not a darkside user. We don't know what brought him to the dark side. Luke's inability to teach may have made it EASIER for him to be tempted by the dark side, but we don't know what actually brought him there.
Sattorin ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 12:14:40 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Would you have been upset at the end of ROTJ that you didn't know barely anything about The Emperor before he died?
In ANH you learn that the Emperor has dissolved the Senate, erasing the last vestige of the Old Republic and putting the regional governors in control of their territories. That single line shows that the Emperor (somehow) took control of a republican government and has just finished fully consolidating his power.
And you already know that Darth Vader is the ultimate badass of the Universe from ESB, and then you have this scene at the start of RotJ where the commander in charge of the Death Star's construction meets Vader. The commander guy has no problem talking to a giant 8-foot black-clad half-robot death machine who kills officers that disappoint him... but he basically shits himself when he hears that TheEmperor is coming.
And then he arrives at the second Death Star with the most badass tyrant king theme song in history, with hundreds of fighters flying just as a ceremonial display, and hundreds of troops at attention where he lands. And Vader, the toughest motherfucker around, kneels to await his arrival.
You didn't know a lot of facts about the Emperor at the end of RotJ, but you knew who the fuck he was.
I have no idea who Snoke was, how he came to power, or how his government operated, or how he was successful with a whiny brat for an apprentice and an incompetent buffoon as the head of the military.
Holovoid ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 23:00:20 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Or how he apparently is super powerful in the Dark Side.
You are using the hated prequels. Hated for too much shit going on and not enough focus to berrate the lack of backstory for snoke. The emperor was literally a hologram for 1 movie and sat on a chair for the other. The movie doesn't need to tell us everything only what's necessary
IV tells us that he came to power democratically and has dissolved the rest of the government. We don't know how snoke got power which is important.
Holovoid ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:02:42 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I actually like parts of the prequels. I know they get a lot of shit but most of my complaints about it have to do with poor writing, direction, and contrivance.
I love the massive worldbuilding the prequels did.
That being said I also liked The Last Jedi...just disappointed that this big mysterious guy who just so happens to be powerful in the Dark Side of the Force somehow created a faction as powerful as the Galactic Empire out of the fractured remains of said empire was basically written off as "Yup he was a dude and now he's dead."
This makes the story super disjointed from the OT then.
lukeetc3 ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 06:37:14 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
It's funny you bring up Palpatine, the guy we had no backstory on until an entire trilogy was made which everyone viciously criticized as being unnecessary backstory that didn't need to be told.
Because it didnt. The Empire was the status quo when we are introduced to the universe. Snoke wasn't. The status we left the universe in was that the emperor was dead but now suddenly some new guy is in charge who corrupted Ben Solo whixh leads to a ton of other stuff. It's rational that people want to know more about him.
[deleted] ยท -30 points ยท Posted at 23:58:19 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
But that film was boring AF and that scene shows how stupid Anakin is. He should OBVIOUSLY realize that itโs very clear that Palpatine is way too knowledgeable about the dark side of the force
bubbas111 ยท 14 points ยท Posted at 00:41:05 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Isn't that the exact scene that makes anakin realize that palpatine is too knowledgeable about the dark side of the force? Anakin is the one who snitched on palps to Windu. Anakin just thought he would be arrested as is the Jedi way.
I believe he figures it out in the scene directly after that when Palps is basically like "Jesus kid, I'm the Sith Lord. Go tell the Jedi. How the hell have you not figured this out, I've been taking about Sith Legends and my master teaching me about the force and lots of evil shit for weeks now."
Revenge of the Sith was boring as fuck? What in the fuck is going on around here? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. It's easily the best episode of the prequels and that one scene is one of the best scenes from the prequels.
[deleted] ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 00:41:48 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
While I agree with you, maybe he did. Maybe he did and he liked that, or was conflicted by the realisation?
What? That story is literally what convinced Anakin to turn to the dark side. Plagueis had the power to create life and stop his loved ones from dying. Anakin wanted that power, so he turned to the dark side. That is essential to the plot.
The STORY of Plagueis is integral to the story. He doesn't actually show up in the movies, so how would his character be important?
It's like in Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows. There's the story of the three brothers who cheated death. Those characters don't matter at all, but the story is what the entire book revolves around. Saying it doesn't enrich the plot at all makes absolutely no sense.
Caiden019 ยท 291 points ยท Posted at 15:34:13 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I've made the argument before that they started setting her up as the hero the minute we met her. She's using the force before she knows what it is. She's been doing it her whole life because it just comes naturally to her.
But that's not exclusive to Rey. Just about every force sensitive in the galaxy passively uses the force. They still need guidance in controlling it. Both Luke (space Jesus 2.0) and Anakin (the literal embodiment of the force) needed someone to guide them in controlling it. Even after Luke had been introduced to the force and began understanding what it was, it was still difficult for him to do even simple things like pull his lightsaber. Why doesn't Rey follow similar limitations?
xepa105 ยท 95 points ยท Posted at 20:54:03 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Why doesn't Rey follow similar limitations?
She doesn't? She caused a rift in the rock their were standing in and then later literally cut a rock in half with her lightsaber because she couldn't control her powers. She was immediately pulled to the Dark side of the island because she can't control it. She got bamboozled by Kylo/Snoke through their force connection because she doesn't know how to control it/close it off.
She is a great fighter and pilot, but had never really used the force directly to her advantage unless it was to pull the lightsaber to her in TFA. Her lifting rocks to save the resistance was her first really powerful use of the Force. Before then she had duped one dumb stormtrooper and had resisted Kylo Ren's mind invasion, which wasn't really done consciously, she simply resisted it, without knowing it would work.
Caiden019 ยท 46 points ยท Posted at 21:00:57 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
but had never really used the force directly to her advantage unless it was to pull the lightsaber to her in TFA.
We see her defeat Kylo's attempt to pull the saber out from the snow, we see her actively use mind trick on someone, and resist another users influence. Three things that has required some level of training for every Jedi we've seen.
xepa105 ยท 61 points ยท Posted at 21:10:08 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Like I said later in that same post, her defeating of the mind influence was not because she knew what she was doing specifically, she just resisted; Poe resisted too earlier in the movie, but since he's not strong in the force, it was useless for him. Also, the mind invasion thing was introduced in TFA, so it's not like we've seen it too much to know the ins and outs of it.
The lightsaber in the snow is also one where she was not doing it because she knew what the force was or whatever, it wasn't something controlled, just like all her uses of the Force in TFA.
I mean, Luke used the Force to guide two proton torpedoes into the opening of the Death Star without more than a speech about the force and half an hour of training from Obi-Wan, but somehow Luke's incredible affinity with the Force is never questioned the same way as Rey's is.
I'm pretty sure using the force in that case is pretty much the same as trusting your judgement. He's a good marksman in a ship as pointed out by the womp rat story. It's just him trusting himself instead of relying on the computer. If the force was required to guide them in they never would have gone on the mission or at the very least never sent the other two runs first.
Mind Invasion is in the EU. I think it is called legends now. Jacen (Ben's eu counterpart, uses it)
Caiden019 ยท -6 points ยท Posted at 21:17:22 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I mean, Luke used the Force to guide two proton torpedoes into the opening of the Death Star without more than a speech about the force and half an hour of training from Obi-Wan, but somehow Luke's incredible affinity with the Force is never questioned the same way as Rey's is.
Luke still had more introduction to the force and his sensitivity to it than Rey, he is the son of the embodiment of the force, he is canonically the most powerful force user to have ever lived, and he wasn't even going to try it until Obi-Wan pushed him to. Rey just saw someone do a mind trick and thought "That was cool. Guess I'll try" and it just works.
xepa105 ยท 23 points ยท Posted at 21:25:24 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Right, so Luke in ANH shows that training isn't all that necessary to use the force, not well, at least. Luke is obviously powerful in the force naturally, and was able to use it in ANH, but Rey is powerful too without knowing it. And again, it's not like she uses it at all until after Kylo tries to invade her mind, which is the point from then on where she begins trying to use it. It's not beyond reason that Kylo's attempt to break her mind made her feel the force more so than she ever had. Which she then used to trick a stormtrooper, and let's not act like that's incredibly difficult
Rey definitely uses the force a few times in TFA before she meets Kylo Ren.
She's using the force before she knows what it is. She's been doing it her whole life because it just comes naturally to her. It's hidden in alien language without subtitles, but she uses the Jedi Mind trick to get BB-8 from the Junker. When Finn is passed out after the TIEs attack, she uses the Force to wake him up, just like Obi-wan does to Luke on Tatooine. She uses the force to line up Finn's shot in the Falcon. When she frees Finn from the Rathtars, she says "that was Lucky!" In my experience, there's no such thing as luck. Rey definitely does not suddenly become powerful with the Force. When she tells Luke "Something inside of me has always been there, but now it's awake" (or something like that) she isn't saying that she suddenly has this power, she saying she suddenly realized she has this power.
xepa105 ยท 10 points ยท Posted at 21:41:49 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Yeah, I agree with that. The point is, she's not consciously using it. Much like how Luke isn't consciously using it when he's racing through beggar's canyon on his T-16. They are both incredibly attuned with the force without knowing it early in their lives.
so Luke in ANH shows that training isn't all that necessary to use the force, not well, at least
And Rey uses it pretty well for only a few hours worth of knowledge around it. Luke was aware he was a force sensitive for several years and he could barely pull a lightsaber to himself. Something Rey does against another force user.
and let's not act like that's incredibly difficult
We've only seen people at the level of at least a Jedi Knight use mind trick in the past which takes at least a decade of training for the average user.
[deleted] ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 06:08:05 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
To play devil's advocate, if you were just watching ANH for the first time and didn't know star wars at all, you wouldn't know he's the son of the literal embodiment of the force.
This installment is shitting on the idea of force blood. That's part of the point. It's a democratization of the force.
NRDL ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 01:06:41 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Let's not forget that her mind link in TFA with Kylo backfired on him, and SHE actually got information out of his head. That's the easiest possible justification for any specific competence with force powers, and the one I subscribe to.
maglen69 ยท 12 points ยท Posted at 23:03:33 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
cut a rock in half with her lightsaber because she couldn't control her powers.
That's more because she was swinging a lightsaber, badly I might add, than she was using her powers.
Regarding that rock-lifting. I'm not entirely convinced it really was Rey who did it. She seemed surprised when the rocks suddenly moved, and it didn't really look like she was concentrating on making anything happen at all (which it looks like she's doing most other times she's using the force). So, might be far fetched, but could it have been Luke who did it? He wasn't dead yet by that point.
tbar310 ยท 11 points ยท Posted at 22:55:30 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I'm thinking Leia and/or Luke may have helped her. I mean, Yoda nose-booped Luke with his walking stick and started a fire with lightning.
Snoke talks about this. There is some kind of strange balance at play. She rises along with Ren. Luke and Vader purified and balanced the force after long years of imbalance because of the sith (and the Jedi), possibly opening the doors to stronger force sensitives than ever before.
Caiden019 ยท 102 points ยท Posted at 20:36:04 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I'm not a huge fan of that story point. I understand that they are trying to develop on the mystery behind the force, but it sort comes off as lazy way to develop Rey without actually developing her.
Isn't her whole deal kind of, "I have this power and I don't understand it." I've never felt like I needed more explanation than that she has been force sensitive her whole life and has a passing enough knowledge of the jedi to start trying things once she realizes that she has the ability.
Caiden019 ยท 40 points ยท Posted at 20:58:11 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
That's fine. I've got no issue with her starting to develop her abilities. The problem is that we see her doing fairly impressive things in the force well before anyone got her to understand what the force is and how to control it. Even the embodiment of the force needed formal training to do simple actions in the force.
How about Luke deflecting bolts without being able to see pretty much right after meeting Obi-wan? I seem to remember Anakin winning a pod race as a child against opponents with better pods and less honor? And why do people have to learn to use the force at the same rate? It's totally conceivable that some people take to it faster than others, like as in life.
Luke failed using the force to deflect the blasters at first though. Not to mention you can hear the remote moving around which makes it easier to deflect.
Caiden019 ยท -7 points ยท Posted at 00:13:24 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
In terms of learning quickly no one should be faster than Luke or Anakin.
That's narrow thinking and I'm glad Rey and the ST aren't limited by it.
Caiden019 ยท 16 points ยท Posted at 00:42:29 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Anakin is literally the force itself and Luke is canonically the most powerful jedi to ever live. If Rey is learning faster than them then she needs a reason.
Luke is canonically the most powerful jedi to ever live
You must be thinking of the old EU. That's not part of the new canon.
Both Luke and Anakin knew nothing of the Force or the Jedi until somewhat later in life. Rey grew up idolizing the Jedi. Yoda tells Luke that simply believing and doing is by far the most part of using the Force, not training. Anakin didn't know to believe, and Luke didn't believe, whereas Rey always believed, and knew stories of the kind of things you can do with the Force, so she was already leagues ahead.
You gotta pay less attention to the fan theories of how these things work, and go by what the movies themselves tell you - particularly, what's explained by the greatest Jedi master. It's all there for you to see if you pay attention instead of trying to apply your own rules to it.
You must be thinking of the old EU. That's not part of the new canon.
It's G-Canon and Disney hasn't tried to change it.
Rey grew up idolizing the Jedi. Yoda tells Luke that simply believing and doing is by far the most part of using the Force, not training.
Pretty sure most Jedi on the order believed in the force and they still needed a decade or so of training before anyone considered them competent force users.
[deleted] ยท 10 points ยท Posted at 01:43:57 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Luke himself explicitly says he's never seen potential/power of that degree except in Ben and Rey.
For claiming I should look at the screen maybe you should open your ears. He never said never. He said Rey didn't hesitate in the face of the Darkside just like Ben and he feared what might happen. He was afraid Rey would turn like Ben did.
Pretty sure he was not on Dagobah with Yoda for a decade.
Luke is also part of the Skywalker blood line and Canonically the most power force user in history. He is going to advance faster than the average force user and his training was nowhere near complete when he left Dagobah.
No, that's not canon. What's canon is that he says he's only seen that kind of power once before (before Rey), in Ben Solo. And yes, he did say that, I just got out of the theater from seeing it again. Canonically, Rey and Ben are more powerful than Luke, in his own words.
He's talking about the power to go into the darkness without hesitation. He fears that it could spawn a second person like Ben. Someone highly adept with the force and on a war path. It's no reason to believe that they are actually stronger than him, especially after he made fouls out of both of them.
No, he's not talking about temptation to the dark side, he's talking about their raw power, which is why those are the words he used. Stop ignoring what's in the actual movie to cling to your baseless complaint. You're trying so hard to find flaws where there aren't any that you're ignoring what's in the movie itself, and doing mental gymnastics to dismiss what's actually on screen.
Yeah, Luke was canonically the most powerful Jedi to liveโuntil another surpassed him. I mean, did you think that NO ONE would ever be more powerful or Force sensitive than him? That no one in history would ever have more raw power than him? Heโs only the most powerful until he isnโt. And thatโs how it always works. Right now Rey is powerful as hell but there will come a day when another surpasses her in power. Itโs inevitable.
Caiden019 ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 06:32:40 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I mean, did you think that NO ONE would ever be more powerful or Force sensitive than him?
Considering how absurd his progression as a Jedi is? Yes. As an avid fan of Dragon Ball Z, I don't want Star Wars to become DBZ. Make a power ceiling and stick to it.
Iโm sorry but thatโs ridiculous and it makes Luke seem like a Gary Stu. Like, why should he randomly be the power ceiling for a force that is SO strong and unique and ancient? A force that will exist throughout the universe for all time? Please. Give me a break. Thatโs like saying that no wizard can ever be as powerful as Dumbledore. Dumbledore was OP as hell but one day, someone will surpass him (just as Dumbledore surpassed the previous greatest wizard: Merlin). This is just yโall being salty that your personal favorite character is being overtaken by someone else.
Because it's not. If you want to redefine what "canon" means, away from what the current owner/purveyor of the story has, then sure, anything can be canon to you, and the word becomes somewhat meaningless.
I actually think that is one of the things I really like about this trilogy. I appreciate that these new storytellers are taking the handcuffs off of the force and giving it space to be a little bit unpredictable again. The more we think we know about how the force works, the less interesting it becomes.
I don't. Being a powerful force user feels less like weighty life decision and more like a convenient super power now. I'm personally sick of superheros with easily obtained OP powers, we see enough of it in Marvel and DC.
Caiden019 ยท 32 points ยท Posted at 21:20:51 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I disagree. I like a lot of knowledge and lore that was put into the force in the EU. But that's personal preference.
narwi ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 09:25:23 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
It is not taking "handcuffs of the force". This is fundamentally changing what and how of force and force users. Suddenly the only thing that matters is power, the force users are no longer adept of a mystical force but mere strongmen. This idiotism is also reflected in Luke's surprise how he of a legendary bloodline could not build up a training academy.
The problem is that her natural ability means she doesn't have to work for anyrhing which makes for boring character development. The second problem is that with the exception of things like breathing, nothing comes natural to people. People need to experience things to learn. Some learn quicker than others but everyone has to learn.
Her character development isn't rooted in how good she is at the force. It's rooted in her struggle of identity. I'm not defined by what I do at my job or my hobbies and skills. I'm defined by my relationships and thoughts and actions.
No you're defined by all of those things. Matter ot fact, if someone was writing you as a main character for a book; your job, hobbies, and/or skills would definitely come up and might even be the first thing people would learn about you other than name.
The point is that her super force abilities that she never actually learned how to use are used as deus ex machinas like 3 times in TFA. It makes her boring because nothing can stop her. She has had two opportunities to kill Kylo Ren, essentially a sith who is more powerful than Vader and she has had one days worth of training. Kylo had years and perhaps even a decade of it. And when she had the first opportunity to kill him she had never even held a lightsaber before. There are explanations for why she survived but Kylo should have been able to pull the saber from her hand. Luke was able to pull a saber from snow after getting slashes across the face by a wampa after only a year of practice. Kylo should have been able to do it after a decade of actual training against a woman who had none.
No you're defined by all of those things. Matter ot fact, if someone was writing you as a main character for a book; your job, hobbies, and/or skills would definitely come up and might even be the first thing people would learn about you other than name.
The point is that her super force abilities that she never actually learned how to use are used as deus ex machinas like 3 times in TFA. It makes her boring because nothing can stop her. She has had two opportunities to kill Kylo Ren, essentially a sith who is more powerful than Vader and she has had one days worth of training. Kylo had years and perhaps even a decade of it. And when she had the first opportunity to kill him she had never even held a lightsaber before. There are explanations for why she survived but Kylo should have been able to pull the saber from her hand. Luke was able to pull a saber from snow after getting slashes across the face by a wampa after only a year of practice. Kylo should have been able to do it after a decade of actual training against a woman who had none.
NRDL ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 01:05:11 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Thinking about this, I got a very Voldemort-Harry parallel in my mind.
I loved TLJ and TFA but this is my one major problem with this trilogy as a whole. Everyother movie has made a point of showing that strength in the force without training means nothing, as people can't control it with any degree of accuracy or intent. It took Luke at least a year to learn how to move objects using the force. Anakin (the chosen one, born of the force) couldn't do shit all besides his reaction time and intuition (untrained force potential).
Oyul ยท 26 points ยท Posted at 22:25:19 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
We donโt know how long Luke was training with Yoda. It could have been days, weeks or months, really.
Besides, are people forgetting that Luke started out as a sheltered farm boy? Rey grew up alone and has been fighting to defend herself since she was a child. If she wasnโt good at it, sheโd be dead or starving.
Sorry, but it seems like no one questions improbable leaps in ability of skill (fucking anakin blowing up battle ships as a 10 year old) until itโs a woman. Iโm not buying that this is a grievance coming from a genuine place.
But it wasnโt hated for that reason. It was hated for other reasons: boring, bad dialogue, etc. No one was ever like โDamn that Anakin, what a Gary Stu! So fake! A child would never be able to do that!โ
It's established that he's an amazing pod racer. He's 8 and he's basically racing in Formula 1. He can do this because of his insane force potential.
Rey is scrappy, but she hasn't been given any explanation into how force sensitive she is. Anakin with no training was an amazing pilot. Rey with no training is an amazing pilot, skilled duelist, a skilled force user, expert marksman with a blaster, etc. She's handed everything. It's not gender it's bad writing.
Unless Leia and Han spent ages getting to Bepsin and then ages once they got there before Vadar sprung the trap, Luke wasn't on Dagobah for long at all. A matter of days, not weeks.
I think the main point is that it seems Rey has like little to no flaws. She is just excellent at everything. Whereas when Anakin is discovered, we are given the impression from a Jedi we have been with in the story, that he is the literal embodiment of the force. So that would lead us to believe he is going to be very skilled, just not trained. Rey, especially when we are given the idea that her parents meant nothing, is exceptional in most things we see in the films, so it just seems kind of uninteresting that she is just too good at too much.
She's naive. She bought Finn's lie about being in the Resistance. She thought Luke would wade in with a laser sword and destroy an army. She thought Kylo Ren was going to turn back to the light.
She's insecure about her parents throughout TFA and the first half of TLJ. To the point she tries to do dumb things like go back to Jakku, and diving into the dark side cave.
She freaks out when she touches the lightsabre in TFA, reacting purely out of fear to run away.
But the problem is that she is so good at every skill her naive nature doesnt matter because she can get out of any situation she is thrown into. Contrast that with Luke who would have died 3 times over at the battle of yavin alone had it not been for other people saving his ass. And the same thing happens in ESB where he only survives because others save him due to his deficit of skill. Rey beats Kylo after knowing about the force for a few hours. Luke gets his ass kicked after training with two master jedi. And then gets it kicked again the next movie.
I don't do much dating given I've been married for 12 years and have kids. But hey, if someone having to make her do a handstand and move some rocks would make her more flawed than being an emotional idiot, then power to you.
Well yeah, seeing her actually struggle to do the things she does would make her more flawed. At least in the way people care about.
No one is saying "Rey is literally the embodiment of perfection in every aspect of life and she has never once done anything wrong", they're saying that within a couple weeks Rey's reached levels that took even the most powerful of Jedi years to attain. It's ridiculous, makes every past Jedi look stupid and weak, and it plays out like a bad fanfic.
How is she exceptional in most things and without flaws?
Sheโs very clearly fearful, naive, hopelessly optimistic to the point of her own detriment at times, stubborn, and temperamental. She doesnโt necessarily think things through all the time, she just lashes out and reacts instinctively (I think this has been ingrained in her due to her rough upbringing).
Sheโs good at fighting because she had to be, growing up alone on Jakku. She trained with her staff.
She knows how to fix and fly things because thatโs all the entertainment she had on Jakku.
Sheโs also good at certain things because without even realizing it, sheโs been using the Force to help her. Before she realized what it was, it was just this uncontrollable part of her that she wasnโt aware of. It just sort of...leaked out and helped her (such as convincing people to do things, aiding her flying and fighting, etc).
Alright, to make this a non-gendered conversation, I have problems with power creep in male characters in these movies. The whole mind-reading ability given to Kylo Ren and Snoke is way OP and not consistent with previous canon. Luke's ability to literally astral project across the galaxy is insanely OP and is something Lucas would never have even considered putting in a movie.
I must have missed that message about how the force works. Luke is mentioned as having a problem with control and concentration. It's stated that Jedi need to start their training young, but it's unclear whether this is because of how long the training actually takes or whether because the Jedi ran like a cult that brainwashed their members and that's easier to do to kids.
MattTVI ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 01:31:35 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
How did the Jedi from a "thousand" generations ago learn to use the force at all with no one around to train them?
How did anyone ever become a Jedi? At some point, someone had to figure out how to use the force without knowing what it was and having no one to teach them or there would be no Jedi.
Rey grew up dealing with dangerous situations. Luke probably didn't have much opportunity or need to hone his latent force abilities on a moisture farm. Much like language, maybe the best time to learn is as a child, which is why the jedi recruit so early anyways.
Caiden019 ยท 27 points ยท Posted at 20:54:01 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
But she wasn't actively using the force till TFA. Every force user we've seen so far has needed some form of guidance in order to actively use the force.
Plenty of force sensitives live their lives without knowing it and will die without using it.
It's "wax-on wax-off" She wasn't actively using the force, but she was forced to flex those muscles in a more instictive way. When she was finally taught what the force was, then things naturally just became clearer to her. She was forced to learn how to use the force passively, which made her much better at using it actively later on.
But why is she so adept at using it actively before anyone even taught her how? We've never seen a force user do something like that and we've followed the stories the two most powerful force users to ever live.
Who knows what Anakin was doing with the force the first week after he was taught how to meditate? They sort of skip that part. Also, I already went over Luke's relatively safe upbringing, which resulted in less latent force use as a necessity.
More formal training, yes. However, he was so much younger than she was. She had years of passive "training" just from her upbringing. Maybe this is the real reason the Jedi were so keen to pluck away younglings in the first place. Maybe if they reach a certain age, under certain conditions, they start using the force actively without training. The real point of the training is to avoid allowing them to fall to the dark side, not to show them how to use their powers.
But that's really not how the force works. Like I said, some people will go their entire lives without ever using the force despite being force sensitive. If it wasn't for Luke's influence, Leia probably would have never known she was force sensitive.
The Jedi train children because it's easier to instill Jedi values into them and dictate their upbringing.
Those who go their entire lives do so perhaps because they are never faced with an event that requires the force connection to manifest itself. Rey was faced with such events. Either way there had to have been someone at some point who used the force actively without having been trained, otherwise who would have started the order in the first place? Who trained the trainer?
Honestly, I'm not sure the chicken/egg metaphor works here. The force came first. As I understand it, it's eternal. Somebody HAD to be the first one to start using it. Somebody had to have figured out what it was at some point. If the first Jedi could do it, then why shouldn't the Last Jedi be able to figure it out?
I was talking more in how the Jedi came to be. We have no idea how the order started. Did someone just naturally learn the force and pass it on or was the force itself the first teacher?
To the person that learned it? Potentially nothing. In the current lore we really don't know how much the force itself impacts a persons life. The force could simply be a part of nature that people learned to manipulate over time. Or it acts on it's own and had influence on the creation of Jedi and Sith.
The very first force users likely had very weak control of the force, but noticed there was something there. Learning to control it was likely something that occurred over generations, eventially evolving into the Jedi and Sith as we know them. If there was some ancient God-like "First Jedi", we probably would have heard about them in the lore. But we haven't, meaning Rey is just magically the fastest learning, most naturally gifted force sensitive the SW universe has ever seen and is exactly what everyone is complaining about.
When the series so far has every force user ever require extensive training to achieve mastery and all of the sudden Johnson makes up a magic uber warrior it is lazy writing, plain and simple. This isn't dragonball Z. Star Wars didn't need "Force Inflation" to be entertaining.
This is actually something we haven't been shown before. It's a person with a very strong connection to the force, who has reached adolescence in a situation where they are constantly forced to utilize their force connection to survive without training. How is this not fertile story ground? What's wrong with expanding the universe into places it hasn't gone before?
You keep bringing up the growing up in a harsh environment thing, but that is not unique to Rey. Having to fight doesn't mean she is the only force sensitive to have had a rough childhood. Anakin was a slave, who used his force sensitivity to compete in pod races. Luke was a farmer who used his force sensitivity to become a top notch pilot. I'm sure plenty of the students in TOR had rough childhoods. Ahsoka was nearly enslaved at 3 years old. Force users git good at stuff they do. Fighting is no different than flying or anything else requiring good reflexes.
But yes, her connection to the force is the strongest of anyone we have ever seen given her lack of training. And again I'm going to call it force inflation. Producer needed a force capable hero to compete with the genetically gifted and extensively trained Kylo Ren? Just make one up who is shocker the most gifted we have ever seen! I'm not saying the chosen plot is impossible (its fiction), just lazy. For a character that the producer seems to want to make a "nobody", giving her this much power without working for it makes her completely unrelatable.
Anakin could have developed along the same lines as Rey if he hadn't been picked up when he was. Luke didn't really need to be able to bullseye womp rats in his t16 to survive. Surviving as long as she did without Jedi training or intervention could easily allow somebody with a connection to the force to develop the abilities she has shown. Also, she has yet to compete with Kylo on an even field. His training does clearly give him the edge.
Eh. Agree to disagree. Nearly all of the viewers who dislike the film agree her powers are too strong given her training. Your rationalization of how she achieved such power is just that. Your rationalization.
It really comes down to 1 of 2 scenarios:
1) The writers sat down and said "hmm... lets create a hero who is more gifted than anyone before. We can explain it in the final chapter by revealing her origins and how it shaped her into greatness." In this case, the source/explanation for her exceptional abilities will be revealed in Episode IX and I'll eat my foot. Even if this is the case, I would feel they did a very poor job foreshadowing/alluding to this possibility in the first 2 films.
2) The writers wrote the script, thought little of her exceptional abilities, and the viewers complained that she is OP. In this case, the explanation for her abilities will be completely overlooked in Episode IX, because there is none; and any theorizing to explain her abilities is just grasping at straws in an attempt to backfill a hole caused by a lazy writing decision.
Every force user we've seen so far has needed some form of guidance in order to actively use the force.
The Clone Wars cartoons prove this to be false. There are several force sensitive children throughout Star Wars and some are even shown to be using it as infants. Even the kid at the end of TLJ pulls the broom to him.
Caiden019 ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 22:21:19 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Those kids had been introduced their training. As we see from the Padawans in Episode 2 they start learning pretty early. Honestly I didn't notice the kid when I first watched it so I would have to go back to be sure. Regardless it falls under same issues I have with Rey. Why have these limitations suddenly changed?
As for limitations, there aren't necessarily limitations that actually exist. What some may find difficult others may find easy. It could very well come down to just how strong ones faith is and how attuned to the force they are. Rey has nothing but the force and she hasn't for her entire life. Suddenly she's focusing on using it and it's working. I'm not sure why there has to be some artificial ladder one has to climb to use the force.
I'm not sure why there has to be some artificial ladder one has to climb to use the force.
Because until recently that's all we've seen. People had to grow with their abilities. No way ANH Luke was ready to go up against any moderately trained force user.
Only because he is a good pilot and for a short period. Not to mention he got hit... well r2 did. He was dead if Han didn't show up.
AceJon ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 01:48:55 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Why have these limitations suddenly changed?
Because the force awakened.
jjack339 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 03:49:04 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Anakin was using the force as a kid. That is why he was the only human who could do pod racing. He had no training, he was just using it as part of his nature.
Just about every force sensitive in the galaxy passively uses the force.
I mentioned this already. Force sensitives (especially those that are strong in the force) "accidentally" use the force. They don't actively try to manipulate it, it just happens.
I mean he probably had to fight tusken raiders or at the very least they're a threat to him. He carries a rifle pn Tatooine for a reason.
narwi ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 09:28:39 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
And an alternative universe is born where Luke did not hunt womp rats in a speeder or race skyhoppers in canyons. Maybe JJ and Rian just paid as much attention to Star Wars as you seem to do.
Luke force pulls his light saber at the beginning of Empire without Ben ever teaching him how to do that. Not every Force skill is taught. Some are figured out.
Caiden019 ยท 47 points ยท Posted at 21:22:56 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
But that's several years after he learned about his force sensitivity. He's aware of what his is capable of and has started exploring it. Rey just sees things and then tries them out a few hours later and they work flawlessly for her. Luke still struggled to pull the saber.
When you started school were you able to read before some of your classmates? Were some classmates in contrary more adept in math or science or another subject?
Thereโs your answer
Caiden019 ยท 16 points ยท Posted at 22:01:53 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Luke is just as adept if not more in the force than Rey. His canonically the most powerful force user to have lived.
No. He's just as strong in the force, if not more, than Rey. He probably barely used it instinctually as a boy. She's probably been using it a lot unconsciously her whole life. She probably has a natural affinity for USING the Force in certain ways that Luke doesn't, even if he's stronger.
What? Where does this come from with just what we have from the OT? Rey isn't force projecting herself. That she can lift rocks without first running through the forest with Yoda on her back doesn't prove much.
Lol, why can't we read "Luke is the most..." As an opinion? And what sense of powerful does he have in mind? And the stuff Luke has done under Lucas's control pales in comparison to the prequel Jedi.
Because it's not really a subjective concept. How funny something is is a subjective concept, but story details are not. When J R.R. Tolkien says that Aragorn ruled long and the kingdom prospered he means it. It wasn't meant to be taken as an opinion.
Luke has done under Lucas's control pales in comparison to the prequel Jedi.
It was the 70's and 80's the technology and general film making were different.
I actually like this point about JRR Tolkien and Lucas. I don't think objective/subjective is the right distinction here. Maybe positive/evaluative, but whatever. A term like powerful is not very clear, whereas length of reign is. And maybe I give less credibility to Lucas's claims like this than I do Tolkien. When Lucas evaluates Luke's power, I have a hard time knowing what he means.
This all said... You say we couldn't get the kind of power levels of the prequels with the technology in the 70s. From the films, then, our ability to measure Luke's power is hampered... Consequently, comparisons to new force users is hampered, as we CAN do more than the OT, technologically. Rey is not as powerful as the Prequels trilogy jedis. She's not jumping, flipping, reflecting blaster shots, she gets cut by a praetorian guard, etc. She can lift rocks, many of them, but this is like an entry level task for jedis, re ESB.
What about within OT? Well, within the OT, we never see Luke do things like lifting an entire X wing, and we see Yoda doing this. We see that he fails pretty hard at lightsaber mastery, until RoTJ battle against Vader when he's channelling the dark side.
George Lucas says Luke is most powerful. How do we make sense of this given Luke's in-OT comparisons and across franchise comparisons? We'll have to translate markers of OT power to PT power to capture that Luke is most powerful (I think a stupid route) or say Luke can do all that PT stuff and we just didn't see him do it (I think this is a weird way to go). Or have to say that Luke has a different kind of power from expressive force ability (jumping, lifting, sabering, etc). I prefer this last interpretation myself.
Now how does this relate to Rey. As said above, she can't do or doesn't do the things force users in the PT do, and we have the tech to show that. Furthermore, that luke is super powerful now or at the end of the OT (or whatever Luke-state Lucas was referring to when he made the claim) has nothing to do with how fast he learned the force or whatever. Rey learns some things quickly and others not.. I mean, have you seen or read Jonathon Strange and Mr Norrel? There, one person is naturally gifted with magic, and another is capable through arduous study. Why can't this be the case here? And if you look closer, Rey is not OP. She relies on her blaster, gets cut up fighting one guard while Kylo takes on like 5 at a time, knocks the millennium falcon down a bunch, misses with her blaster, fails to properly interpret Kylo Ren's intentions/conflict, can't resist force users throwing her around or reading her thoughts (snoke), and can't jump around. Like, what the hell are people talking about when they say she's too powerful?
He wrote the series. If Peter Jackson told me Aragorn never became king I would laugh in his face. If J R.R. Tolkien came back to life and told me it I would accept it as the new canon (follow by several questions of course).
But he didn't write TFA or TLJ. There's a difference between Jackson interpreting stuff that has happened in the books and writing a sequel. It's a bit like all the things J.K.Rowling has said about what happens after Deathly Hallows since finishing the Harry Potter series. When she said it was a mistake for her to put Ron and Hermoine together, does it make it canon that Hermoine wouldn't find Ron attractive?
Also how important canon consistency is compared to telling a good story? They don't have to be mutually exclusive, but there will be times when it will be a choice between respecting every element of the canon and the author telling the story they want to tell.
Iโm not saying she knows that itโs the force. Did you even watch the movie? Rey even said that she had felt the force in her her whole life and only now has it become truly awakened lmao
nideak ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 12:17:29 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
it's only truly been awakened now, but she's been using it her whole life, so it was like, half awake before?
Weโre shown it several times. Did you even read OPโs post? They outline when Reyโs used it before she even knew the Force was a thing. Without her even realizing it, sheโs been using it to influence people and aid her skills.
She clearly didnโt โjust talkโ when she convinced that alien thing to give up BB-8. She also wasnโt โjust luckyโ when she saved Finn from the Rathtar or when she fired a blaster at Maz Kanataโs place and suddenly knew how to aim very well. The camerawork and her expression are intentionally set up to show us that something odd is happening when she suddenly starts firing the blaster. Itโs telling us โIsnโt this odd? Isnโt this kind of weird?โ on purpose.
Okay. Let's say that is the case even though I don't remember any of it. That just makes her a shitty character. Is Rey in trouble? She'll just use the force that she has had no training in and only learned about 5 minutes ago. Captured? Just mind trick that guy even though she has no way of knowing what that is or if it's possible. Fighting a dark jedi? She's more powerful. She is more powerful than Luke is at the end of return of the Jedi and he had years of training and practice. He had seen the force put to work by two Jedi Masters and two Sith. She didn't even know it was real before Han told her and she mind tricks a guy.
Wobalf ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 01:57:23 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
That's not what we're shown though
ThePilot ยท 17 points ยท Posted at 21:58:31 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
That's a good example of Luke learning how to control the Force on his own, but I think one way or another we have to agree that the rate Rey progresses is beyond what Luke did.
After reading comments about this, I think having her progress so rapidly was a mistake. Despite fan theories and retcons on the topic, the movie itself doesn't give a satisfying explanation (yet). This makes Rey's power a distraction to the rest of the movie and ultimately a bad storytelling choice.
That's not to say I disliked The Force Awakens or The Last Jedi. They were both really good movies.
The movie flat out tells you that she has massively raw force sensitivity as does Kylo. Luke talks about how much it frightens him. She has greater force potential than even Luke himself. She has massive potential, therefore she progresses faster.
ThePilot ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 22:34:46 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
We also have Snoke saying she's some sort of light side avatar. Neither is a particularly satisfying explanation. It's good enough for consistency, I guess.
Anakin had raw force power but he still needed lots of training. It's just crazy to me that Rey is preforming these crazy impressive feats after a few days. You can have raw power, but it still needs to be honed with training and practice.
There are not a ton of crazy impressive feats, to be honest. She withstands Kylo Ren's mind control and force convinces someone to let her free. She's not a former farmer, she knows how to fight. And if you rewatch the fight scene in TLJ, she sucks with a lightsaber, taking on one or two guards while Kylo Ren wipes the others off the floor. Does she learn fast? Yes. Does she have raw power? Yes. So what? She clearly fails at falling into temptation. I'd argue the only reason she was able to defeat Kylo Ren in TFA is because Kylo Ren is fucked up internally and externally and she channels the darkside.
I actually agree with you about the TFA fight. I would love if the dark side thing was true. I really wish they went a little further with the whole temptation thing.
And the feat that pushed it over the edge for me was the rocks at the end of TLJ. She hadn't really practiced any telekinesis but suddenly is able to practice feats that rival Yoda in the PT and OT. I can accept that she is strong, maybe even the strongest ever, but I just think it's poor storytelling to have her be so strong so fast.
If you can accept this that is fine, but I just doesn't sit right with me. I really makes me wish TFA and TLJ could have had some time between them but that blame is on JJ not Rian.
I am so with you on the time distance between TFA and TLJ. I blame JJ for this as well. She had some telekenesis stuff at least in TFA -- lightsaber? I get moving a lot of boulders out of the way is a bit intense, quicker than we're used to. But I'll settle with the interpretation that she had this stuff just out of reach and now has been able to tap into it. Also, I like the interpretation here that the force has many different sides, and mastering lightsabers and lifting rocks is only one. Not sure if you have seen legend of Korra or the last Airbender series. But Korra has a super easy time mastering three elements and then the fourth is super hard. A similar story could be said about Rey. She's really adept at this stuff, but terrible at control, at the more spiritual elements, at reading others intentions, etc...
I have seen Korra and that is an interesting idea. I would love if the movies gave her something that she had a bit more trouble with. I just hope they can squeeze it into one more movie.
She was also able to beat him in TFA because he had a hole in his stomach from being shot by Chewbaccas bowcaster - a weapon which they demonstrated multiple times in the film was super powerful. Also he toyed with Finn and got his shoulder sliced too.
Now I'm no fighter, I'm a fairly average dude, but put me in a ring against the mountain from game of thrones but he's had a hole blown in his stomach and his shoulder sliced and I reckon I win that fight.
Or, we just accept that holy shit Rey learns shit more quickly than Luke did? Why does this make her OP? Luke is not necessarily the fastest learner of the force in the Galaxy... He's just one we are familiar with.
ThePilot ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 03:22:51 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I donโt think anyone would care if she learned faster. I think what threw people for a loop is that she displayed more power in the first 24 hours after learning about the Force than Luke did for 5 years. Itโs confusing to the audience and distracted from the main point of the movie.
They could have toned back on the Force powers a little and nothing of value would be lost, but Iโm guessing they wanted to depict her as Kylo Renโs equal.
Yeah I was kind of assuming it was like music, some people take years of training to be decent at a single instrument while other people can pick up a piece of taut wire and be able to make a song from it. Not everything has to be taught by professionals, it makes sense that some people would just figure it out, that's what the Jedi had to do in the first place.
That is a good point, but we see some of the same from Luke.
His piloting skill is talked up in ANH. Are we to assume he's a good pilot because he trained or because he has a natural connection to the Force?
Obi-wan has him deflecting blaster shots during his first lesson. It's mere hours after he even hears about the Force for the fist time. He uses the Force to guide the torpedoes and destroy the Death Star less than a day later.
He pulls his lightsaber from the snow in the Wampa cave before he meets Yoda. We really have no idea how long he actually trained with Yoda. It couldn't have been that long.
Caiden019 ยท 77 points ยท Posted at 15:51:24 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Are we to assume he's a good pilot because he trained or because he has a natural connection to the Force?
Little column A, little column B. I'm sure most of his natural skill comes from the force, but he also clearly enjoys flying and probably worked to become a better pilot.
Obi-wan has him deflecting blaster shots during his first lesson. It's mere hours after he even hears about the Force for the fist time. He uses the Force to guide the torpedoes and destroy the Death Star less than a day later.
That's the passive skill I was talking about. The force guided Luke in destroying the Death Star and guided Anakin in winning the Podrace, but neither of them were ready to start using mind tricks on people.
He pulls his lightsaber from the snow in the Wampa cave before he meets Yoda. We really have no idea how long he actually trained with Yoda. It couldn't have been that long.
He has difficulty doing so and by then he has been aware of his force sensitivity for a few years. His training with Yoda helped hone some of his skills but he still got his ass kicked by Vader and Vader wasn't even trying.
He didn't really start showing true skill with the force till Episode 6 and even then he still had a lot to learn.
When Yoda raises the X-wing Luke says "I don't believe it" and Yoda tells him "that is why you fail." That fixes half of Luke's problems right there. When we see Luke in Return of the Jedi he's confident to the point of cocky.
Rey already believes in herself because she knows that power has been there her whole life.
The believe in oneself argument doesn't really work at explaining the insane speed at whoch she develops her abilities. Other before her, even 'believing in themselves' still needed quite some training before being able to do half of what she is capable to do.
She's OP and given the little boy in the end with the broom, it seems they want to change the canon of how the Force works. I'm fine with that if there is an explanation (like the Force being extremely more present than in the past or something) but as of right now, it just contradicts the previous movies
[deleted] ยท 16 points ยท Posted at 19:48:16 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Maybe there's a limit of sorts as to how much force is 'available'. The Jedi are gone so instead of spreading a finite resource among hundreds if not thousands, who are trained extensively in harnessing it, there's only the raw and untrained people. So when Rey goes to lift the rocks out of the way of the cave, there's a ton of force "available" to her because the only ones tapping into it are her, Luke, and Kylo Ren.
I really like this explanation I have to admit. Great point!
[deleted] ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 20:15:13 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Thanks! The beauty of the force is that it lends itself to hand-waving "this is what it does" explanations. Also, the story writers are usually pretty good about not writing themselves into corners. So it's easy to come up with viable theories!
Thats the Sith rule of two, developed by Dart Bane from the teachings of Dart Revan. Of course thats the EU and no longer canon so who knows if they have something similar now.
jdawg254 ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 04:18:49 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Following that, it almost makes sense that a โForce wealth gapโ led to the downfall of the Republic. All of the elite Jedi and Sith were drawing so much of the Force that there was little left for average Jedi to defend themselves during Order 66.
I have a somewhat similar head canon. I've assumed based on the force awakening that there aren't many force users being born right now so the force is making up for those low numbers by making them more powerful. I don't see it as a resource that's available to them in your sense of it, but again more like the force is in abundance inside these people because there are so few. Luke only found like 12 padawans in the whole galaxy. So yea that's my take on it.
tbar310 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:57:54 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Anakin was cocky as hell, and he needed years and years of training
_Mellex_ ยท 24 points ยท Posted at 16:08:54 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
They brought in martial artists to train Daisy Ridley, and then forgot to show the part in the movie where she becomes proficient at using a lightsaber. She's with Luke for less than a day and she's already swinging that shit like she's Qui-Gon.
what about the scene where she's practicing using her staff (which we've seen her kick ass with), and then is like "hey what if I try this lighstaber here, I bet a lot of the principles of fighting with these two weapons are the same"
we see Finn fight reasonably well with a Lightsaber and he has no connection to the Force. Sabine is fighting with the Darksaber and has no connection to the Force.
mtfoobwy ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 17:45:58 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
There was a whole episode dedicated to Sabine training with the darksaber.
they spend like 2 minutes training and 10 minutes on Kanan dropping the harsh reality of their circumstances on her
Caiden019 ยท 32 points ยท Posted at 16:46:47 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Lightsabers are vastly different from any weapon. The blade is weightless which means you have little to no perception of where the blade is while it's out of your field of view. Prior fighting ability can help, but someone untrained with a saber is more likely to cut of their own arm than hit their target.
you're right, but footwork, reaction, timing, etc would be similar.
Watch the fight with the guards again. She's great at breaking free from holds. It would absolutely make sense that a young woman living all alone on a lawless planet like Jakku would know how to escape some guy grabbing her or she'd be dead by now.
Snoke probably would have wrecked her.
Elliott2 ยท 9 points ยท Posted at 19:32:53 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
says who? pretty sure thats never really discussed outside of legends and iirc george himself said they have weight..
Qweasdy ยท 17 points ยท Posted at 20:46:07 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Kanan in Rebels teaches Sabine how to use a lightsabre onscreen and makes a point of talking about how strange/difficult it is and that they have some strange characteristics for duelling
Elliott2 ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 20:53:50 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
That's funny, everything in what you just said was wrong.
Rebels has canonized how lightsabers behave like it or not. Lightsabers have weight to them, the blade is actually heavier than you would expect until you get in tune with the sentient crystal inside it. Also lightsaber blades are drawn to each other, making lightsaber fighting an exercise in manipulating the bind.
I just did. They only talk about the crystal when mentioning weight. Even if there was weight to the blade it would be incredibly light which causes the same issue since a vast majority of the weight is in the hilt.
She's with Luke for less than a day and she's already swinging that shit like she's Qui-Gon.
You should really watch the movie again if that's the impression you got. Rey clearly struggles during her fight with Snokes guard and it's very obvious she has a lot to learn about fighting with a lightsaber.
She's already practically a master with the staff when we first meet her in TFA, from having to fight with it to survive.
Once you're highly adept at combat, the specific nuances of individual weapons are just minor details. It's the general aptitude that matters most, and she had that before the movie started.
I was thinking it has to do with the balanced aspect of the Force. There are so few Light side Force users that the major amplitude of the few Dark side users causes a Newton's 3rd Law effect. Every force is met with an equal and opposite force.
When Kylo used the Jedi mind trick on Rey in TFA, she was introduced to his sheer strength, and is thus that strong. She obviously has an inclination to the Force otherwise she wouldn't have been able to fight it in the first place, but she's the Chosen one here after all.
I think there might be something about their connection (which I'm not convinced was caused by Snoke) that lets her tap into something in Kylo, I don't want to say his training exactly, but something. Kind of like what you said, he makes her stronger.
She does progress a little too fast...but then again, you could argue that she should progress the fastest. Unlike Luke or Anakin, she's had to be a fighter her whole life. Even without the Force, she's great with a staff and smart/clever on her feet. She's probably subconsciously tapped into the Force a lot more because she's been in a lot more fights.
She also accidentally gets into Kylo Ren's mind as he's actively using the Force, which may have shown her a lot in a really short amount of time. And she sees him in action first-hand. Luke really doesn't see much blatant awe-inspiring use of the Force until he meets Yoda.
Hereโs my take on it. Luke was a skeptic. He doubted his abilities, he doubted the force. As a result, it was harder for him to learn.
Rey grew up in a time where Luke Skywalker was a legendary hero. Where the Jedi ways were idolized. She fully believed in the power of the force, and when she learned she had this power, she fully opened herself to it. Which allowed her to learn faster.
Anakin was pod racing before he met anyone. He flew a spaceship and destroyed the CIS droid mastership through "luck".
Chirrut in Rebel One is explicitly stated not to be a Jedi, yet has enough of a command of the force to navigate melees and storms of blaster fire.
There's precedent.
YungTris ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 21:25:34 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Its been answered by snoke "Light rises to meet the dark". She is not by any sense a master. But the force has been increasing in here since childhood so that the her being the light could rise to mee the dark, kylo ren. It is a bit of anomoly how quiclkly she has been able to use these different abilities, but its not impossible to think that she could be talented enough to pick these up very quickly or understand what she could do with the power within herself. Luke may have been the most powerful jedi of his time and still struglled. But he was only the most powerful as he was the only one. If you pay attention he was by no means a jedi master at all. Just as Luke says, he was a legend. Barely defeating vader by tapping into the dark side and exploiting the conflict between light and dark within him, only to be easily defeated by the emporer.
I understand their explanation for her abilities. I just think it's kind of dumb. Even the power that was meant to rise up and face Sidious (The pinnacle of Sith teaching) still had to go through years of training.
Perhaps because sidious was well trained and precise with the force Luke's innate abilities require training to be on par with that precision. That would explain reys almost explosive use of the force so quickly, to combat the unfocused and erratic force use by kylo ren
maglen69 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 23:02:44 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
And she had troubles getting pebbles to move and all of a sudden she can move boulders. Dozens of them at once?
Both Luke (space Jesus 2.0) and Anakin (the literal embodiment of the force) needed someone to guide them in controlling it.
Anakin was an extremely experienced pod racer at the age of 9. I think that has something to do with The Force.
Even after Luke had been introduced to the force and began understanding what it was, it was still difficult for him to do even simple things like pull his lightsaber. Why doesn't Rey follow similar limitations?
In TFA we see that Rey is already an experienced fighter. She has had an extremely rough childhood and has been forced to fend for herself. Luke, on the other hand, has just been living as a farmer. He probably wasn't in a single fight for the first 19 years of his life.
Anakin was an extremely experienced pod racer at the age of 9. I think that has something to do with The Force.
That's the passive ability I was talking about. Being influenced by the force without realizing it.
In TFA we see that Rey is already an experienced fighter. She has had an extremely rough childhood and has been forced to fend for herself. Luke, on the other hand, has just been living as a farmer. He probably wasn't in a single fight for the first 19 years of his life.
And? Fighting doesn't really translate into force ability.
And? Fighting doesn't really translate into force ability.
It does translate into handling a lightsaber, though. But now, as I read your comment again, I realize that you're talking about telekinetically pulling the lightsaber, and not fighting with it.
But Luke gives you the answer directly in the movie:
I've seen this raw strength only once before. It didn't scare me enough then - it does now.
That, to me, implies that Rey (and Kylo) are stronger with the force - at least while untrained - than Luke himself were as a teenager.
That, to me, implies that Rey (and Kylo) are stronger with the force - at least while untrained - than Luke himself were as a teenager.
I don't think that implys they are stronger than him, just generally strong. G-Canon still has Luke as the most powerful force user in history and Disney hasn't tried to change it.
B00rad ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 04:45:34 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
After the ending of TLD I can see how he might still be the most powerful force user but it certainly seems like Snoke was powerful than him. And Kylo and Rey seem to have more power but they aren't trained.
Snoke was scared shitless of Luke. He makes it pretty clear in TFA that if Luke returned they were fucked. The only impressive thing Snoke did was create a force connection. Luke created a force projection across the galaxy.
B00rad ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 04:36:28 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I think you're missing the point of Rey and Kylo. The point is that they are exponentially more powerful than any force users we've seen (except Snoke and maybe "the senate"). Things that should be difficult are easy for Rey. Kylo uses the force in ways we didn't even know were possible. Their insane power is an important part of their character.
The point is that they are exponentially more powerful than any force users we've seen
They haven't done anything that tops Anakin, Yoda, Obi-Wan, Sidious, Windu, Vader, or Luke.
Things that should be difficult are easy for Rey.
That's the issue.
Kylo uses the force in ways we didn't even know were possible.
He stops a blaster bolt. We haven't seen it before, but with our general knowledge of the force, it is well within the realm of possibility for a gifted force user.
Luke is still the most powerful force user in history. The canon hasn't been changed (yet).
Luke had an entire lecture about this in the movie itself, that apparently you missed the point of.
The idea that the power of the Force is limited to the specific religions of the Jedi and the Sith, rather than inherent in the Force of the universe, is vanity.
Yes, training accelerates the process, but it's not the source. The source is the Force itself.
I don't think that was the point he was trying to make. I think he was talking about the idea behind Jedi and Sith to be fundamentally flawed. That the force is balance and no one side can claim it.
You're thinking too narrowly. The concept applies broadly. The Force is inherent in the universe itself, and the power it gives comes from the Force itself, not from Jedi or Sith teachings.
You gotta pay less attention to the fan theories of how these things work, and go by what the movies themselves tell you. It's all there for you to see if you pay attention instead of trying to apply your own rules to it.
The Force is inherent in the universe itself, and the power it gives comes from the Force itself, not from Jedi or Sith teachings.
Well yeah. That has been a concept in Star Wars for a long time. But everyone, including the man you are referring to, needed guidance in the force to actively control it till now.
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 01:45:54 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I think you should be allowed to like the movie if you want, I accept that many people enjoy this film for many different reasons the same way that many of us donโt like the film for many different reasons. Also I donโt feel that the humor is the same as the previous films, Iโd welcome rogue one style humor not your mother jokes
Yeah, I noticed a trend that I also saw in Guardians of the Galaxy 2, where one character would speak dramatically for a minute, there'd be a pause, and then someone else would interject with a joke. It fit in a comedy like that, but in the case of TLJ, it just derailed all the scenes and took the drama out of everything. Jokes in Star Wars to me were always brief moments of comic relief that you smirked or chuckled at before getting back into the action. In The Last Jedi, they dominate the scenes and destroy any sense of tension. Compare "That's not how the force works!" to the gags in TLJ.
Banjoe64 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 04:33:32 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Itโs Marvel type humor... which is fine for those movies... I๏ธ quite enjoy guardians of the galaxy. But Star Wars is a different type of movie. I๏ธ still thought many of the jokes in TFA were somewhat forced but not on the level of TLJ.
There have been jokes throughout Star Wars, but I definitely agree that the humor in this movie felt different. There was so much more snarky little jokes in otherwise serious scenes that Made it feel kinda overkill to me. To me, Rogue One had the perfect amount of humor but also serious dramatic scenes, while in TLJ it just didn't feel that way.
Matthemus ยท 11 points ยท Posted at 00:27:28 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
This was the only issue I had too. Small humorous moments are common in the movies, but some of those moments felt so forced in TLJ.
Double pun intended.
It got to the point where I couldn't tell if Kylo is supposed to be making a joke when he's talking to Rey about her parents when he calls them trash like three times in a row.
[deleted] ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 02:20:56 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I'm half and half on the humor in Last Jedi. Some of it I was dying at. I laughed when Kylo yelled in the ATAT and then Hux just repeats him at the top of his lungs. Also got a lot out of Luke brushing his shoulder after getting shot up. That stuff was all funny to me. What I didn't like was the cutesy gag humor. Like BB8 piloting an ATST(I suck at vehicle names don't kill me) and the CGI midget rolling around in gold coins.
The OT was a brand new thing, nobody was expecting to the level of depth or knowledge on the lore that we expect today. Weโve all pretty much grown up steeped in this universe. To treat a mysterious powerful figure like snoke in the same manner that the emperor was treated in the OT is a nice excuse, but a complete misread of the audience/fan base imo. They couldโve added in at least one line to explain things a bit. Iโm sure weโll be hearing more, and this will be fine once 9 is out, and will stand the test of time, just shitty for these 2 years.
oskopnir ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 17:59:49 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
The excuse that they treated him like the emperor in the OT makes no sense, because in this case there is a back story. They can't just ignore all the other movies and spawn this guy out of nowhere, just to kill him off because his role as placeholder for Ren is finished.
I, for one, haven't accepted Rey's Parents story. In episode VII, during her visions when she first encounters Luke's lightsaber, she has a vision of her younger self crying, while she watches a ship leaving Jakku. That doesn't lead me to believe that her parents sold her for drinking money, if they had a nice ship to leave the planet with.
I think it was either misdirection of Kylo to help motivate her to join him, or something that Snoke put into their mind to put all this into motion.
Artif3x_ ยท 34 points ยท Posted at 21:44:49 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
The door's open for Abrams to retcon that, if he wants, but I think Johnson's given the story inertia along a certain vector, and Abrams would have to turn that needle pretty far to make that work.
Exactly. TFA's questions were all fun: Who is Snoke? Who are Rey's parents? But those aren't deep questions that tell us things about the universe and the force. TLJ raises much more interesting questions like "how does the force affect everyone, not just the Skywalkers" and "how do you learn from your failures" and "what does it take to be a leader" and "how do you know if something is worth fighting for". To me, these questions are farrrr more interesting than the TV cliffhanger questions of TFA. I still like that movie but it doesn't seem to deepen the franchise in any way, it's kinda just a fun adventure story 30 years after RotJ. TLJ on the other hand is taking themes that have always been in Star Wars, mainly failure, and expanding on them and taking it to new heights. Could some of those storylines be streamlined into a tighter film? Absolutely, but the backbone of this film is just as strong as the backbone in the prequels and it executes it's ideas far better than the prequels did. TLJ is not a perfect movie, but when you look how the questions it's asking directly correlate to how it treats it's characters (the theme of the film literally drives the character arcs), this is the most mature and daring Star Wars movie since Empire. Best movie since Empire? I think RotJ/RotS still hold that spot but TLJ is a crazy good addition to the universe. I'm so glad we get to discuss these deeper meanings rather than more of the thin "what's this character's backstory" questions we got with TFA
Thank you. So many of the problems with this trilogy started with TFA.
VTKajin ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 06:46:44 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
A lot of people I've talked to who didn't like TLJ would've rather had Rian do the entire trilogy than have JJ start. I liked TFA but so many people's problems with TLJ are actually with TFA.
Gholer ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 01:26:36 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I think it would be really easy to introduce her true family.
Artif3x_ ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 14:57:11 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I do also, but not if her family is one of the named families from the OS. Doing so would gut the theme of TLJ, and judging by Johnson's and Abrams's supposed level of communication during the production of TLJ, I don't think Abrams will go that route.
Now, if they decide to introduce her parents as completely new characters...there's something I think is not only possible, but likely.
Well Johnson already turned the needle pretty far. I don't see why JJ can't do the same.
Artif3x_ ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 15:03:57 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I think it's a case of not pulling the same trick twice. It would be like repeating the same joke more than once. It wouldn't be received well.
jjack339 ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 03:47:40 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
yep. the door is still open. It would be very plausible for her to find out who they really were and they just say Ben lied.
It reminds me in game of thrones when Danaenarys is convinced she cant have kids. Then Jon snow ask "who told you that?" She says "the witch who killed my husband" Jon then replies "That does not sound like the most reliable source of information"
people tend to dismiss this when making the โrey said who her parents areโ argument. this is important.
jace255 ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 03:10:20 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
True, but neither character has authoritative knowledge of the truth. And there are logical inconsistencies in the story that Rey's parents lived and died as Jakku locals.
Rey's vision of a ship leaving doesn't add up. Either her parents sold her and left the planet, and therefore didn't die on Jakku, or the people they sold her to immediately left her on Jakku. Why would they buy her and immediately abandon her?
My own theory is that Kylo wanted Rey to believe that her worst fears about her parents were true, so she would be more vulnerable to the idea of joining him in that moment.
Yea I mean thatโs not definitive whatsoever. Pretty much exactly what you would say trying to cover something to an interrogator. One of those lines that seems to convince us, but is light weight and can easily be twisted.
drumdeity ยท 14 points ยท Posted at 00:25:44 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I haven't watched TFA in a while, but I don't think the parents were necessarily the owners of that ship... It could be a bus, taxi, or something similar
Gholer ยท 13 points ยท Posted at 01:29:03 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Kylo said her parents were buried in a pauper's grave on Jakku. This isn't really what seems to happen in the force vision given to Rey when she touches the lightsaber. There is a ship taking off into the atmosphere. This would imply that she was left there by them for another reason.
I wouldn't mind another answer to this one (as long as it's not too convoluted), but I would rather focus on who Rey has chosen to become going forward. I felt like TFA focused on her past, TLJ focused on who she is, and hopefully EPIX will focus on who she will become.
When I rewatched TFA the other week before TLJ, the ship that flies away from Jakku and young Rey looks very similar to the First Order transports that are also used in TFA. Could just be coincidence, but who really knows?
Gholer ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 01:25:46 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I think we're going to have to chalk that one up to a new director wanting to do things his way, and not particularly caring what was established in the previous movie.
Gholer ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 03:05:33 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
You don't think Kylo's nature would be to try and mislead Rey into thinking she might have nowhere to go?
Like someone else said previously he does push her gently in that direction previous to that, but im sure weโll see it resolved in the next one
sortiv ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 02:55:50 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I've heard the ship argument multiple times. The problem is, just because they're on that ship doesn't mean it's their ship. They could have been dead broke and sold Rey just to scrounge together enough credits to buy their way onto some expedition off world where they tried to scavenge, etc. They might have returned years later, penniless and defeated, completely forgetting or not caring about or just unable to find or care for the daughter they left behind. And so they end up dead on Jakku, never reunited with Rey and maybe never wanting to be reunited.
So again, just because Rey's parents are on that ship doesn't mean they own it or that they're wealthy.
Yup. I'm reminded of ESB, when Vader tells Luke he is his father. In ROTJ, George Lucas had Yoda confirm this to Luke, on the evidence that viewers needed to believe what the bad guy was saying.
Yoda was to sit this one out, but he was added after consultation with child psychologists made George Lucas decide he needed an independent character to confirm Darth Vader's claim that he is Luke Skywalker's father
I firmly believe Kylo was lying as a subversion to this trope and in Episode 9 that will be revealed.
Agreed. I think the whole Snoke thing was done very cleverly. If they do another trilogy, they can tie Snoke's identity and origin into that one, making it seam together better.
2-3uv ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 12:30:57 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
came here to say that
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 13:25:18 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
And after that vision, Maz, who apparently has an answer for everything, tells Rey that whoever she's waiting for, they're not coming back. To me this was a clear indication that her parents were nobodies and in line with the theme of TLJ: let the past die.
You and many people are totally missing the point of a lot of people's frustration with snoke. I don't care who he was or where he came from, and that's not what I'm upset about. What I am upset about is that they established this character to be an all-powerful, all knowledgeable master of the dark side and leader of the mighty first order.
How can they just kill him off in a way that makes him look so foolish and weak?
This is a man who brought the powerful Kylo ren to a knee just from a hologram and had him cowering in fear, a man who can manipulate people with the force without even being there in person.
And we're supposed to accept that he wouldn't have seen Kylo turning that saber to him? I don't buy it for a second and it totally ruined that character. Complete waste in my opinion.
spinky342 ยท 41 points ยท Posted at 18:25:30 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I agree with a lot of criticisms of the movie but at least they attempted to explain the killing of snoke and how kylo's thoughts were tricking him.
Sith rarely see the inevitable betrayal of their apprentices coming. Palpatine did not sense how close Vader was coming to betraying him, and Snoke was focusing too much energy on Rey to notice what Kylo Ren was doing, and so he didn't have enough time to react before it was too late and that blade was extending.
Apparently he wasn't reading Kylo's mind well-enough, as most Sith don't. And regardless of what he was doing with the lightsaber before, that's not where his attention was. How else can a sith master fail other than letting his guard down for a moment? In a way, I think that's how they all failed.
Artif3x_ ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 15:31:36 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
That's just it, everything in that scene was telling us Snoke wasn't distracted, or letting his guard down. He was laser-focused on Kylo's mind at the moment of his death; narrating Kylo's thoughts aloud. The idea that Kylo could pull off a stunt like igniting the saber through that kind of scrutiny just makes no sense.
maglen69 ยท -2 points ยท Posted at 23:10:35 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Sith rarely see the inevitable betrayal of their apprentices coming.
When I brought up the Rule of Two in a good way this sub bashed me by saying Snoke and Ren weren't Sith.
Ah, well I agree with you. Snoke probably had some sort of Rule of Two thing going on here, and even if Ren didn't consider himself a Sith, that doesn't mean Snoke didn't. Will Ren keep with the Rule of 2? I don't know, but I think it is pretty hard to deny that Kylo Ren was functionally an apprentice of Snoke from some time before the beginninf of TFA until a certain point in TLJ.
[deleted] ยท 28 points ยท Posted at 19:08:03 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
It doesnโt make him look foolish and weak. Watch it again. Snoke canโt read thoughts, only intentions. Kylo Ren is the big bad. Now we have an unhinged half a Sith in control of a major military force with no plan or discipline. How can you not love that?!?!
Oh, I love everything about Kylo. I think he's a great character and they did an excellent job with his development in this movie. I'm just disappointed in Snoke's uninspiring death
Defguru ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 01:05:27 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Same. While I heavily enjoyed Kylo Ren in both movies, and look forward to him in Episode IX, I would have liked Snoke, too, lol.
Snokeโs death was a huge part of Kyloโs character development. He was a essentially just a foil to Kylo and was ultimately unimportant to plot in either move. He served his purpose, I just donโt get why a bunch of people need to see him be super powerful and involved, Kylo is clearly the important antagonist here and his death directly fed into making him a more interesting character.
Artif3x_ ยท 9 points ยท Posted at 22:09:57 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
What I am worried about happening with Kylo in place as Ep. 9's Big Bad is that his character is so wonderfully conflicted most of the time that he'll not be able to fill the slot of the main antagonist. You can't have a Big Bad who's waffling on whether to be bad or not, and I didn't see anything in his actions after he refused to torpedo his mother that led me to believe that inner conflict had been banished by his attack on Snoke. If anything, that killing of Snoke could be seen as a redeeming act! His fight against Skywalker was too tied up in their old baggage to represent his passage into the pure dark side.
It feels to me like we're going into a very difficult script for Abrams to write. If I were him, I'd be looking for an overarching reason for all these dark side personalities to keep popping up and being so powerful, and introduce the audience to something new. Snoke's past is a fertile place to find something like that.
Kylo is being set up to lose control of the FO to Hux. Hux is a zealot. We're seeing what I hope is set up for Hux to take over from Kylo and watch the FO become more than he can control, such that even he is sickened by what he sees.
It preserves the conflict within him as he watches his actions come to their natural conclusion.
Artif3x_ ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 15:02:34 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
You know, I was thinking along the same lines today. Kylo's just usurped power, and while Hux is saying, "The supreme leader is dead. Long live the supreme leader," they've spent two movies showing how much Kylo and Hux hate each other. I'm expecting Hux to use the shock of Snoke's death to try and wrest power away from Kylo and install himself as the new Leader. I doubt we'll see them cooperating much in Ep. 9.
Again, that doesn't make for a very good Big Bad. Distracted, infighting enemies are weak. Ep. 9 needs a powerful, focused, purposeful villain, and unless they just glaze over the power transition, I don't see how Kylo can be it.
Oyul ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 23:00:56 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Eh, to me I donโt think thatโs interesting at all. Snoke doesnโt need an explanation. Weโve seen hundreds of characters like him in fantasy stories - we already saw this character in the OT. I donโt think weโd gain anything from his backstory. We certainly didnโt glean anything interesting from Palpatineโs backstory: an evil old fuck gets more evil and hella ugly, the end. Snoke was just another device TFA used to reference back to the OT to make people feel nostalgic. People complained about that and now complain when the new movie makes a point of its departure from the old tropes. Seems to me you could do a lot with a character like Kylo, no reason to think that theyโve written themselves into a corner. Honestly, a protagonist/antagonist like Kylo is a million times more interesting than another big bad overlord.
Artif3x_ ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 15:24:50 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Oh, I'll agree Kylo's the best thing about the new series. He's my favorite character by far, and I'm excited to see him take more of the spotlight in Ep. 9. I'll go so far as to say he's the only new character that's interesting. You need a certain type of character to be the main antagonist, and Kylo doesn't fit that mold...yet.
Kylo needs to tap into something bigger to amp up his threat level. He's just not that much of a danger in his current state. Sure, he's in control (if Hux doesn't oust him at the first opportunity) of the First Order, but Hux could do that just as well, and wouldn't be nearly as indecisive about squashing the Resistance.
He's not even a threat to Rey, who's shown an absurd level of competence in anything she tries, including beating him in a lightsaber duel with zero training. Yawn. Just sit back and watch Rey's magical expertise solve everything. Deus ex. Sorry, Kylo, you lose.
Give me uber-Kylo. I want him tapping into what made all these other dudes so damned potent. Where's the Sith books? Let's watch Kylo pull a warship out of the air with the Force. Let's see some red eyes on him! Make me believe there's no way Rey can take him (gotta lol at that, given her absurd skill level).
noble77 ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 08:54:56 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Because Kyle is honestly a little bitch. Not likeable one bit. Seems like just about everyone in this movie was so whiny now that I think about it.
Artif3x_ ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 22:03:05 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
You're right. Snoke went out like a punk after a major display of force power, surrounded by guards trained to deal specifically with close combat threats to his person, and after he said Kylo's mind was completely open to him. That's the issue I have. I have no issue with the events themselves, just the technical details of how the script was structured.
If we posted a "how should Snoke have died" thread, how many minutes would it be until someone posted a better way to resolve that scene?
The OP could probably come up with it fairy easily if such a post came up. I refuse to believe that even those that liked the movie thought the writing was a strong point.
The movie was meh to me. Good moments and bad moments.
But I was fine with how they killed Snoke.
TBH, the writing has never been the strong suit of star wars. If you talk to people that don't like the movies for reasons other than "they're weird" one of the biggest complaints is plot holes, lazy writing, and forced drama.
If I want good writing in Star Wars, I'll read the books. The movies have never really offered it. But they offer great visuals and a manageable plot.
jdawg254 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 04:39:19 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Do they have any new canon books really? ive done some looking all I see are re writes of the movies.
Once the announced the books weren't cannon anymore after Disney bought Star Wars, I stopped looking. So I'm sorry, I don't know.
I know that revan, Bane trilogy, plagueis, and grey jedi books were amazingly well written. And I'll always have them.
Artif3x_ ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 15:13:25 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
One thing I've noticed from the people who liked-to-loved the movie, even among the professional critics, is that they focus on the Jedi plotlines. I agree those parts of the movie were pretty damn good, with lots of needed surprises for both new and old fans. There were some problems in the details (like Snoke's death), but for the most part, the quality was really high.
What they don't say is, "Wow, that Canto Bight subplot really made the movie for me!" or, "Rose is the best Star Wars character, ever!" In short, they're cherry-picking; focusing on what they liked about the movie and shuffling the glaring missteps of the movie off to the side and pretending they don't exist, like going to a party and finding your ex is also there, so you spend your time on the opposite side of the room (but what a great party!).
Give me the reviews that lay out what genius the space-chase was, or how Finn and Rose's plot was a masterwork of scriptwriting. Take the movie as a whole, make the case, and still put a "5 of 5 stars!!!" rating on it. Do it with a straight face. Maybe then I'll have some respect for the result.
Fair point, to which the counter argument is Vader had served palpatine with excellence for 20+ years and he had no reason to doubt Vader at all. It's what made Vader's return to the light so climactic.
Snoke spent 1.5 movies berating Kylo for being so "conflicted" and how much pull to the light he sensed in him. He had reason to be wary and still fell for such a simple trick
To be fair, he has been SUPER gaslighting Ren for multiple years and had basically manipulated events up until the very moment he was killed. Everything until the second that Ren turned the blade on him was a calculated part of his plan. He would have no reason to doubt the follow through.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 11:44:58 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Exactly. Vader was loyal to the Empire to a fault. Kylo is only loyal to himself. The FO to him is just a weaponized extension of the anger he feels at everything.
xtra_ore ยท 36 points ยท Posted at 19:40:49 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Also, Palpatine was clearly lost in the pleasure he was getting from torturing Luke and Vader hadn't responded to the first couple of calls for help from Luke too.
And Snoke was lost in the pleasure of seeing one of two major threats to himself about to be snuffed out and his total domination of those around him. The look on Snoke's face as he thinks Ben is about to kill Rey is almost...orgasmic. He's getting off on his power trip. And it's his undoing. I loved it. Pride, hubris, arrogance.
Snoke explained that he stoked Ben's conflict purposefully to make Rey believe he could be redeemed. During that scene, Snoke released Kylo from his influence and so expected him to be entirely dark.
[deleted] ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 19:26:35 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Doesn't that kind of prove my point? The Emperor was the "final boss" of the WHOLE trilogy without having any backstory. Snoke was killed in the second movie setting up Kylo Ren as the main antagonist for the third movie. Now, if Kylo dies at the end of IX, it will mean more for the trilogy now that we saw him go from whiny wanna-be to evil bastard.
He's unstable and he's conflicted. Vader was trying to kill Luke moments before saving his life. Anakin went from reporting who Sidious was to murdering children in an afternoon and went from trying to save Padme to nearly choking her to death in like a two minute span.
Artif3x_ ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:20:21 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Vader was half machine. That lack of organic mass made him uniquely qualified to handle a heavy dose of lightning from the Emperor and toss him into that hole. Luke couldn't have done it, as we could see by what that lighting was doing to him. Palpatine tried to lightning the crap out of Vader, and Vader took a ton of it and was still able to lift Palpatine up and drop him down that shaft. The scene and the story demanded that it be Vader. The irony was that Palpatine made the suit to torture Vader, and it gave him the tools to end Palpatine's life.
Very neat and tidy story work.
hulibuli ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 05:52:42 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Also the fact that he was saving his goddamn son, tossing all worries for his personal wellbeing aside.
If panicking mother can lift a car to save their kid in full adrenaline rush, I can accept Vader tossing the Emperor into the sin bin.
Banjoe64 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 00:32:23 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
That scene was MUCH more climactic than Snokeโs death
VTKajin ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 04:14:18 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Because it was the end of the trilogy and everything was leading up to that moment. Snoke's death is more of a game changer than a culmination, and that's okay.
Banjoe64 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 04:29:54 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
His point was that Snokes death wasnโt any sillier than the emperors. My point was that the emperors death was climactic and snokes was not. It felt... hollow? Idk. Seemed like a waste and a silly way to die
VTKajin ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 04:31:43 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I mean, if you think so, that's that. Different perspectives and opinions are inevitable and totally valid.
Depends how he comes back. I'm not suggesting he strolls back in all sewn up and is still in charge. Could be a force ghost type situation. Maybe he can take the force ghost thing even further and occupy another body. Maybe he's done this many times before. Maybe this is all part of his plan. I guess what it comes down to is that I'm NOT OK with this aspect of the story if he's never mentioned again. It would seriously diminish my enjoyment of the new trilogy...maybe to the point of tainting it beyond repair. And I can't believe that will be the case. For an epic space fantasy that is all about the lore of the Jedi and Sith, to have a super-strong force wielding being (who has apparently been around the block) to just be killed off with no further explanation is unthinkable to me. Surely he'll either be back in some form, or we'll find out some information that explains what the heck he was all about.
I don't think he was all powerful. He was manipulative.
The scene where kylo brings Rey to snoke he says something like " I knew you would do that,I intentionally confused you and linked you two together". That for me felt like a straight up lie. Theyve already establish the guy as manipulative and he said something like this afterward which is suspicious and Kylo was already confused,easy call Snoke. Also, the connection between the two kept going after his death which I find suspicious. There is also the thing where he says exactly what Kylo does as he does it like he is actually reading his mind or whatever. It
Felt like a bad magic trick to me.
Tri_77 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 06:43:08 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I thought that having Ren kill him was at least one outcome he had planned for. The whole movie, and I think TFA as well, he is constantly berating Ren for having a pull to the light side of the force. By having him murder his master, Ren fully bought into the sith rule of two and fully embraced the dark side.
Snokes endgame was never extremely clear, but to me it seemed like he wanted to make the dark side of the force as strong as possible and every outcome from the encounter in his throne room would lead to that. Kylo killing Rey and still following snoke is a favourable outcome, as they will have the means to kill Luke then and then they are the only two force users left. The same is true if snoke had seen his attack and killed both Rey and Kylo, as then he is still the most powerful dark side force user and also can kill Luke. The third option is how the movie played out and like I said before it is the sith rule of two in action.
Snoke fell into the same trap that Palpatine did: he knew what was going to happen.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 13:27:38 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I get that frustration but I don't think it was a waste. From a storytelling perspective, Snoke only existed to drive Kylo's character forward. In dying, he did more to develop that villain than if he had stayed alive. He served his purpose and died in true Sith fashion
he believed himself to be unbeatable and was so arrogant that he couldnt see his apprentice betraying him right in front of his eyes. they had a good idea but they shouldve given him some more backstory through something like characters talking about how he raised the first order or gained so much power.
You're speaking in terms that either I have to understand your point or I'm dead wrong.
People have gotten mad when I've compared him to Palpatine, but they are almost interchangeable between ESB/RoTJ and TFA/TLJ. I never once cared or felt like I needed Palpatine's backstory.
How can they just kill him off in a way that makes him look so foolish and weak?
He dies almost the exact same way as Palpatine - He's gloating that he won and he's killed by his apprentice while torturing the hero.
Again, I'll repeat myself here, I don't care about snoke's backstory. I don't feel like you need palpatine's in the OT. I say it again because you mentioned it again in your second paragraph.
And in regard to your first sentence, I feel like people don't understand the point. That's the frustration. It has nothing to do with his backstory. The execution was poor. And it's not directly comparable to the Emperor's death either. Vader found the light inside himself. Kylo just flat out betrayed him.
And given Snoke's constant berating of Kylo and how much conflict he supposedly sensed in him you'd think he would have seen this coming. Emperor had the utmost faith in Vader
And given Snoke's constant berating of Kylo and how much conflict he supposedly sensed in him you'd think he would have seen this coming.
Kylo had also given Snoke some reasons to trust him. Kylo killed Han Solo and supposedly brought Rey to Snoke. Not to mention that Snoke was arrogant (which has probably been mentioned here before).
Artif3x_ ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:14:43 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
And again, you're right. Snoke was clearly threatened by his apprentice Kylo to never have an audience with him without his cadre of Jedi-killers in tow. Those guys even drew weapons on Kylo at one point to prove they meant business.
Kylo was clear in his thoughts, there was no more conflict in him. Snoke says he can sense that Kylo is about to strike down his enemy, he just never considers it might be him.
nutsotic ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 18:09:53 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
How was Sidious death any better? He was tossed down a hole.
You and many people are totally missing the point of a lot of people's frustration with snoke. I don't care who he was or where he came from, and that's not what I'm upset about. What I am upset about is that they established this character to be an all-powerful, all knowledgeable master of the dark side and leader of the mighty first order.
And yet Palpatine's backstory was unknown until almost 2 decades had passed from RotJ's release. That's NEVER been a complaint against that film.
What changed?
How can they just kill him off in a way that makes him look so foolish and weak?
Because he WAS foolish.
This is a man who brought the powerful Kylo ren to a knee just from a hologram and had him cowering in fear, a man who can manipulate people with the force without even being there in person.
He beat his dog and the dog finally snapped.
And we're supposed to accept that he wouldn't have seen Kylo turning that saber to him? I don't buy it for a second and it totally ruined that character. Complete waste in my opinion.
Can you people read at all? For the third time, I DO NOT CARE what Snoke's backstory is, nor palpatine's in the OT. I don't even have an issue with Kylo killing snoke. I just think the delivery was weak and uninspiring. It's my opinion and the opinion of many others here. If you don't agree, that's fine
Having a opinion doesn't make it free from examination. I get it: you're upset that Snoke read the entire situation and had the players wrong. That bothers you because you think it should have been something more, as if Snoke is so powerful that he deserved a different death. Snoke thought so too, and look where it got him.
Whitesofa ยท 181 points ยท Posted at 19:01:50 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
If you hated Luke contemplating killing Ben, then I don't know what to tell you. Maybe you should see it again.
If you think that Rian Johnson blew up everything that JJ Abrams laid out, you should watch The Force Awakens again.
If you are upset about how quick Rey becomes a kick-ass hero, you aren't looking for answers in the right place
Itโs funny.
You start out telling people to accept that you like it and that no one is wrong then then go ahead and subtly tell everyone they are wrong.
Maybe people do not need to see it again or look in the right place. Maybe they just didn't like it and you should accept that.
Brio_ ยท 65 points ยท Posted at 23:44:58 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
This is what people who like the movie on reddit do. They complain about people who don't like it telling them what they should think, then tell people who don't like it what they should think.
TL;DR - We all just have different opinions... nobody's wrong. (Now here's paragraph after paragraph of why you're all wrong!)
Such a brave hot take. I'm glad someone was finally able to speak up and get this off their chest because we certainly don't have pages and pages of the exact same posts over the last several days.
I think the argument he makes is valid. Because its fine if the movie wasnt to your taste, but don't make an argument trying to bring the movie down when everything made sense.
The film team took a lot of time figuring everything out to make sure that everything made sense considering all 8 previous movies. Therefore I believe most things people point at are chooses the team made, not mistakes.
You can argue on these chooses but its kind of hard 'cause it would change most if not all of the movie. And that is great. It means the movie ties everything together. It is why the movie is rated 95% on rotten tomatoes. It has depth and complexity, yet its quite enjoyable and easy to listen.
If you hated Luke contemplating killing Ben, then I don't know what to tell you. Maybe you should see it again.
You took that out of context. I said my opinion changed the second time I saw it. I don't know what to tell you if you didn't like it. I can see that point of view on Luke's Character because I initially didn't like it. Maybe I wasn't clear.
If you don't like TLJ fine, I just want to discuss it without being told I'm in denial
Whitesofa ยท 41 points ยท Posted at 19:12:14 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I didn't take it out of context.
Maybe people do not need to see it again to change their opinion. Maybe once is enough for them.
cutting and pasting one sentence from a paragraph is literally taking it out of context, but whatever.
I didn't tell anyone their opinion is invalid if they don't see it again. I'm just saying my opinion on parts of the movie changed the second time I saw it. maybe I was unclear
Whitesofa ยท 25 points ยท Posted at 19:39:57 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Cutting and pasting only highlights where to look. The entire post is above to read.
But that's fair. It is not easy to always get your point across the same to every single person on a message board. Someone like me may take it in a way you did not mean.
NordJitsu ยท -15 points ยท Posted at 19:08:38 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
He said thereโs all kinds of valid reasons to dislike it but he doesnโt agree that Reyโs training is one of those valid reasons. Heโs allowed to have opinions about other peopleโs opinions.
And I agree with him.
Whitesofa ยท 34 points ยท Posted at 19:10:37 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
telling someone they need to see it again is not accepting their opinion. It is saying they are wrong and if they view it again they may understand.
He can have his opinion but others can have theirs too.
NordJitsu ยท -9 points ยท Posted at 19:14:05 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Of course. And heโs allowed to have an opinion about your opinion. He listed a bunch of reasons where heโll โagree to disagreeโ, like Snokeโs backstory. But thereโs some things he doesnโt agree are good reasons not to like it. Thatโs okay.
What if I said, โIf you want to say you donโt like apples for their flavor or texture, fine, but donโt tell me theyโre not nutritious.โ
Whitesofa ยท 24 points ยท Posted at 19:20:10 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
That's all fine. I never said he cannot have his opinion.
But don't tell people no one wrong and to accept all opinions and then say, if you think X then you need to watch again or you need to look in the right place.
Where it really goes too far is when people act like the reaction wasn't even mixed and that people who disliked it are just a few very vocal EU fans and a fleet of bots with fake reviews.
drod2015 ยท 43 points ยท Posted at 21:51:03 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I did some math in another thread.
TLJ User ratings...
IMDB is currently 7.8/10 (from 144,151 ratings)
Metacritic is currently 4.8/10 (from 3,520 ratings)
Fandango is currently 4/5 (from 23,281 ratings)
RT Audience is currently 3.3/5 (from 118,209 ratings)
You can average all of these ratings out to 7.24/10.
For comparison, the same math gets you...
8.26/10 for TFA
8.47/10 for ANH
8.48/10 for ESB
8.29/10 for ROTJ
Even disregarding the possibility that the second biggest sample size for TLJ has had some tampering via bots, I'd say overall acceptance of TLJ isn't too far off. Especially for an entry that makes some bold moves in an otherwise pretty traditional saga.
Edit:
Adding ratings for the prequels and R1 for completion's sake (and for /u/NealKenneth)
6.6/10 for TPM
6.6/10 for AOTC
6.2/10 for ROTS
7.9/10 for R1
What's really interesting is that ROTS was averaging 7.6 till I added RT's data. That brought it down to 6.2. I think the vast majority of people would rate ROTS over AOTC. Goes to show the data may not align with public opinion, especially on a film that handles sensitive subject matter.
Drunoctis ยท 16 points ยท Posted at 23:17:32 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Not sure what you're saying but all i know is that IMDb is huge and uses their own scoring algorithm for a reason. They know shady voting is a thing so they have some kind of filtering for new accounts that only voted once, or keep giving 1 stars maybe? We don't really know the actual process but still it has to be the best way to see audience actual reaction.
It's scoring a full point lower on average than the worst of the four that you did the math on, which is significant. How did the prequels and Rogue One score by the same metrics?
Also I can't help but notice that, the larger the sample size, the lower the score is. If these ratings are being brigaded by people who have a negative opinion, wouldn't the opposite be true?
Very cool of you to do the math and update your post, good work! However I disagree with your analysis.
The ratings would seem to show that this film is being rated closer on average to the prequels than the original trilogy. That on it's own would be confirmation that reviews are genuinely mixed.
But here's the killing blow, which I didn't explain too well before.
If I was someone running fake bots review accounts: I would target the smaller pools. 1000 fake reviews has a lot more impact on a rating that only has 5000 reviews versus 1000 fake reviews on a rating that had over a 100000.
Therefore, if the theory were true, you would expect to see the ratings with smaller pools having a lower score. In fact, the opposite is true. The lower the amount of reviews, the higher the score.
So essentially there is greater evidence for fake positive reviews than fake negative reviews. Not that I believe there really is more than a handful of either!
drod2015 ยท 10 points ยท Posted at 22:32:00 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
you would expect to see the ratings with smaller pools having a lower score. In fact, the opposite is true. The lower the amount of reviews, the higher the score.
But TLJ's lowest score comes from the lowest sample size (Metacritic, 4.8/10, 3,520 ratings) and the highest score comes from the highest sample size (IMDB, 7.8/10, 144,151 ratings).
jdawg254 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 04:30:33 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
If you look at rotten tomatoes though it got a pretty rough audience score, Im not saying one is right over the other
-Edited removed sentence about one site as you used more than one.
This is a really great comment, thanks! I too noticed that when you look across multiple platforms it's not that far off the standard. Sure it's closer to the Prequels, but the way news articles talk about 'extreme backlash' you would think it was getting 1/10 across the board.
discobob1 ยท 31 points ยท Posted at 20:13:34 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Well...they are in the heavy minority, and there is a lot of bot manipulation going on. Just go look at the IMDB score. It's sitting at a 7.8 with the vast majority of votes at 8, 9, or 10. Then it tapers off gradually to 2. Then a huge jump at 1. A 1? Really? Then ALL of the "most helpful" reviews are all 1-3 stars. All of them. Again. Really? There's some botting/brigading going on.
And calling it 10/10 isn't? It's not about objective ratings. It's about how people enjoyed the movie. If I experienced utter disappointment I would probably give it 1/10. I bet the movie ruined some people's days.
10/10 is a bit out there too, sure. But, I can't help but be a lot more tolerant/sympathetic for people who get hyped and excited about a thing they like, compared to people who get upset and insulted about a thing they didn't like. Like, if they hated the movie that much that it ruined their day and they need to vent for hours, maybe there's something else at play?
They have the right to rate and say whatever they want, but I have the right to think they're a miserable pain in the ass.
discobob1 ยท 27 points ยท Posted at 21:47:01 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
There's certainly some of that, but that doesn't explain why the vast majority of IMDB users apparently like (or love) the film, yet literally all of the "helpful" comments are laughably negative and overly dramatic. And don't get me started on the fact that many of those reviews were posted days before the movie even premiered. I know because I looked them up on Tuesday/Wednesday out of curiosity.
-RMNZR- ยท -2 points ยท Posted at 23:37:02 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
It premiered on the 13th here in Norway, and most of what I've seen on IMBb is dated 14th? Get your facts straight :)
EDIT: Recon I'm getting downvoted because I was "rude", but honestly, I'm just pointing out the fact that the movie premiered in some countries on the 13th, so I don't understand what's wrong with reviews being posted on the 14th.
Do you think TLJ is really a 1? Cos that's ridiculous
kmoros ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 04:05:58 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Nobody's opinion is seriously a 1/10. They are only voting as such to drag down the average.
Nzash ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 00:33:13 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Yeah yeah, Russia and the hacker known as 4chan are behind the movie having bad scores on imdb, RT and metacritic.
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 21:35:22 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I think people are very upset and leaving an extra negative review to try to get the attention of the people who can change the direction of IX.
However, I'm willing to bet Disney and everyone involved are not going to let negative reviews affect their gravy train. There's likely serious botting or collusion with IMDB to keep the score above terrible without being seen as clearly fake.
I thought it was a 4/10 Star Wars film a 7.5/10 individual film should it have been outside the established universe. But it is Star Wars and it's stopped me from finishing the Aftermath books and lose all hope for the series. It's just depressing now and I totally would have rated it a 2/10 on IMDB to let Disney know how much it was a betrayal of the characters, of the rules in the universe, and of the fans' trust.
I'm pretty sure that even if it displays all of them equally, the score in IMDB weights the scores in a way that is meant to help prevent bots from having as large as effect. I don't know the details, but that is one reason most trust that score more than a lot of movie review scores. Also, in this particular case, the CinemaScore is high, which makes me think that most people liked it.
I know there are legitimate criticisms of the movie and a significant number don't like it (most of which probably do have legitimate gripes), but it does seem that most people do like the movie.
not very few but not anywhere close to 50/50. the people that disliked it make up a disproportionately large amount of people that engage online about the movie. The box office is bananas and it got an A Cinema Score (the only legit fan score).
Just a passive observation. It has appeared to me that in this sub more of the people who liked the movie are the ones shitting on those who did not like it's opinions. Granted there's a few I didn't like it so your wrong attitudes floating out there as eell, but seems to be more so the first set being grumpy and dismissive. I have only seen a sampling size though, so I could always be wrong.
Boom9001 ยท 110 points ยท Posted at 15:41:59 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Also worth noting that pointing out things you didn't like doesn't necessarily mean you dislike the movie as a whole.
You can nitpick the entire movie and still say you enjoyed it while watching it. Some people get enjoyment out of looking at things to improve movies in theory. I'm one of those types, but I still had an amazing time on viewing.
You just settled my inner conflict. I thought that there was something wrong with me for enjoying it as much as I did haha.
Boom9001 ยท 12 points ยท Posted at 20:40:31 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Deconstructing movies can be fun. Hell one movie that is a great example of this for me was Pacific Rim. It's a movie with so much problems with plot holes and issues in how they got Giant Robots to fight Godzillas. But during the film it's just about having fun and ignoring that.
Exactly. Itโs all ultimately moot because if you enjoyed it personally, what does it matter what anyone else thinks? There are plenty of garbage movies (BvS is a great example) that I absolutely love just because I have fun watching them, and no ones opinion about what part of the garbage spectrum the movie falls on will change that for me.
Boom9001 ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 19:22:52 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Yeah but you can still discuss the movie and things you didn't like about it without therefore saying the movie is trash.
Totally agreed, anyone wanting to talk about movies should be able to criticize freely and take criticism freely.
Tacodude ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:56:10 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Exactly. I recognize that there is stuff in this movie that absolutely does not work. But the themes and big ideas the movie has about the Force, and Kylo/Rey have me excited for future movies. On a macro level, I connected with the film.
Boom9001 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:50:44 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Right and that's what fun. After the fact it's easy to point at a few things you think could have been different. But that saying that doesn't mean the movie is shit.
95Mb ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 21:28:11 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Yep. I enjoyed The Last Jedi. Did I see a lot of things that could've been done better, absolutely! That doesn't mean I didn't see things that were done perfectly.
Vythan ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 12:57:00 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Thanks, this makes a lot of sense and is basically where I'm at. I have a very long laundry list of issues with the movie to the point where in theory I should've hated it. Somehow, though, I walked out of the theater having really enjoyed the time I spent watching it. It's a bit surreal, honestly.
It kind of reminds me of my reaction to Mass Effect 3; I have a lot of issues with that game, but somehow it's still my favorite installment in the trilogy.
I thought it was better than the first, I didnt roll my eyes half as much, the music was good(first one had terrible music), the action was fun. And it had some fun moments.I came in expecting a story telling dumpsterfire but knowing id be entertained if the music was good the action was fun and had atleast a few enjoyable character moments like po and bb-8 reuniting. But I tear it apart because I love the original trilogy and nothing gets better by riding disneys dick. Infact doing that is what allows them to be lazy and treat star wars story telling like their bitch so people can just mindlessly buy more star wars products.
Boom9001 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 21:27:10 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Right you don't have to say it was perfect. And the actual issues should be pointed out. But pointing out a movie has flaws doesn't mean it wasn't enjoyable.
VTKajin ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 04:19:19 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I've seen a lot more aggression and dismissal from the "didn't like it" camp, tbh. Not that there isn't any from the "liked it" camp.
PNWCoug42 ยท 19 points ยท Posted at 15:48:53 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
It has appeared to me that in this sub more of the people who liked the movie are the ones shitting on those who did not like it's opinions.
I was told I wasn't a "genuine Star Wars fan," what ever that means because i enjoyed the movie. I've been watching the movies since the early 90's and read most of the original EU, not sure what more I could do other then have watched the movies when they first released to be a "genuine Star Wars fan."
[deleted] ยท 80 points ยท Posted at 16:05:27 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
[removed]
SwenKa ยท 28 points ยท Posted at 17:39:17 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I'd imagine most anti-TLJ posts are downvoted before they make it very far, which makes it hard to find a decent place to talk about criticisms.
Wow. That's not how my page looked over the weekend and the past few days.
SwenKa ยท 34 points ยท Posted at 20:05:55 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Not sure how it was over the weekend, but between yesterday and today, it's all "Did anyone catch this?", "Best performances ever!", "We aren't giving ____ enough credit!"
And then a hundred, "Guys, please quit hating!" threads.
Speaking for myself I like the movie a lot. I wasn't able to see it until Sunday because I was traveling. When I came back and got on reddit to see what people were saying nearly every post and comment was about how it had "ruined" star wars or about the fan divide. I was very very surprised.
It goes in cycles. Hate/like/hate/like. For TFA it was initial 'like', then the 'dislike' backlash came. For TLJ, it's initial 'dislike', then the 'like' brigaders. It happens every time, and for every fandom.
Ugh- I avoid ever commenting in this sub because of stuff like that. But I can assure you as someone who has been watching the movies since they were available on VHS in the 80โs (since I was born the year ANH came out) and being always stuck playing Leia since I was the only girl in the neighborhood when we all played imaginary games since we didnโt have video games even- youโre just as much a โgenuine Star Wars fanโ as me or the guy that spends his weekends dressing up as member of the 501st to visit sick kids in the hospital or the other guy that spends all day making Prequelmemes.
That being said- I found some parts TLJ that I really loved. There were some lines I think that will stand the test of time for all fans and of course some parts I thought that sucked.
We were never going to have every plot issue wrapped up into a neat little package. IMHO-think that would ever happen was setting yourself up for disappointment as a fan of the franchise, and not knowing how J.J. Abrams influence as Exec Producer works.
Just the fact that in order to defend TLJ you have to spend 6 lines on your SW credentials shows that there are a lot of people attacking or more often implying that if you liked the movie you aren't a true fan.
bobakm ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 20:53:21 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
that or you're the other direction and it's just your head cannon. sigh.
Just a passive observation. It has appeared to me that in this sub more of the people who liked the movie are the ones shitting on those who did not like it's opinions.
Yeah, no. I can't tell you how many times I've been told "That's not Luke's character" by someone. And don't just look at the posts, look at the votes.
And the amount of times I have seen people who like the movie saying why people did not like it, and why they are wrong, giving reasons that are not the reasons. I have also noticed my comments saying what I dislike getting more downvotes than comments where I put what I liked. Not saying that my experience is the only experience, it that people who disliked it haven't been asses as well, just my experiences with it.
Hell, even Yoda was affected by his failure. Nobidy moves to Dagobah by choice.
It's also like Luke's exactly the same kind of conflicted individual he always was in the movies.
nideak ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 01:10:58 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
correct me if I'm wrong, didn't Yoda go into exile, until it was time to help? Like, if help ever came along, he wouldn't be like "screw you, I'm a failure I want nothing to do with you!" ?
I don't know, because we never got that sort of interaction with Yoda. He just goes off into exile, never to be heard from again. I guess it's just my "headcanon" that he would have trained someone if they came along, looking to help fight the empire. But you're probably right, Yoda would have acted exactly like Luke in TLJ, had he been given the opportunity.
Nah dude. There's a whole conversation between Yoda and Obi-Wan where Yoda is hell bent on not training Luke. Obi-Wan had to convince him. And as far as we know, Yoda didn't do shit for 30 years besides rot in his swamp.
nideak ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 12:16:23 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Oh, there is?
So Yoda says to Obi-wan "I'm a failure, so I won't train Luke?"
And Obi-Wan is like "nah man, failure's cool! that's how we learn"
I'm sure some on both sides of the argument feel the same.
There's a totally different feeling to being dismissed for liking something as opposed to being dismissed for hating something though. As someone who dislikes the PT but really loves the ST, I've been on both sides.
[deleted] ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 15:38:50 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
"Luke has always been conflicted, used the dark side in the past, had little training, could easily have swayed by fear for the split second he admits, is wrecked by that failing and its consequences..."
DOWNVOTE!DOWNVOTE!DOWNVOTE!
Caiden019 ยท 16 points ยท Posted at 16:53:50 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
"Luke has always been conflicted, used the dark side in the past, had little training, could easily have swayed by fear for the split second he admits, is wrecked by that failing and its consequences..."
That's pretty much his entire character arc in Episode 6. Why retell it?
Aside from the fact that plenty of people didn't seem to get the point before? Because time has passed, and that part of his character has caused some fairly significant consequences to occur.
It also provides a parallel to him and Kenobi. Kenobi failed a student, reluctantly tried to fix it with the next. Luke failed a student, reluctantly tried to fix it with the next.
It also provides a parallel to him and Kenobi. Kenobi failed a student, reluctantly tried to fix it with the next. Luke failed a student, reluctantly tried to fix it with the next.
That's fine. I'm perfectly ok with Luke needing to face failure. It's been a long time and he was far from a perfect person. But his failure wasn't ultimately because of an inability to teach Ben. It's because he had a moment of weakness, one that he already faced before.
Luke already had to make this hard decision. He was told by his masters that darkness had to be destroyed. That Vader could not be redeemed. Luke came close to following, but at the last moment he stopped himself. He believed that there was always hope for someone to turn back from the darkside.
I'm fine with the character traits they wanted to give him in the film. I just think the way it was told deteriorates his character.
Luke already had to make this hard decision. He was told by his masters that darkness had to be destroyed. That Vader could not be redeemed. Luke came close to following, but at the last moment he stopped himself. He believed that there was always hope for someone to turn back from the darkside.
Luke did not almist kill Vader because he was told that he was irredeemable. He almost killed Vader because Vader threatened to go after his sister (a sister Vader found out about because Luke failed to keep her out of his thoughts), and used his rage to fight back. The only thing that stopped him was when he realized how alike they actually were, and backed away from the dark side. THAT was his major fight, not pushing back against Yoda and Obi-Wan.
30 years later, he noticed the darkness growing in Ben, and by looking into his mind, he was afraid of what he saw, and had a moment of weakness (which he didn't even follow through on, and was ashamed of even as it happened). Unfortunately, that happened at the exact wrong moment in time.
There is no way any of that is against Luke's character. He had dipped into the dark side before, he had a moment of weakness before. He was coming from the exact opposite direction on this one, from gradually believing that Vader was good to gradually believing that Ben was bad. Just because he succeeded in one doesn't mean ge'd fail in the other
But that falls under the same concept. He allowed himself to act in emotion and weakness and almost made a huge mistake. But he instead kept his resolve and turned Vader away from the Darkness. What was it about Ben that had to be so different in his eyes?
Again I don't have an issue with Luke having moments of weakness or failure. But he's been to a similar crossroad before. We've seen him cast aside his lightsaber and stand by his family even if it meant losing his life. Give him a different challenge to face.
In both cases, Luke reacted in the very same way. He gave in to the dark side, then backed away from the edge. He didn't strike down Vader, he didn't strike down Kylo. He looked at his reaction bith times and was ashamed. The difference is the way the decision played out, which I think makes it perfectly valid to look at.
We knew this was coming as far back as The Force Awakens, at least in general terms. We knew a student turned against him. So not only are they copying Luke's failure, they're also copying Kenobi's. They also both have different results. Anakin joined his dark mentor, Kylo killed his.
Because in 6 Luke got over it in 1 fight and after that all was well in the world. In the case of Ben, it broke him. That's an actual consequence to the conflict.
Luke was more honest with himself and the audience in the line where he admits his shame than he was in the entire throne room fight in 6.
Luke saw growing darkness in Ben. When he looked inside, it scared him for that split second.
Ben was the exact opposite of Vader. Vader he assumed was evil, and only sensed the conflict after he found out he was his father. Ben, Luke assumed was good and trained him, then found out how deep the darkness went.
"Luke has always been conflicted, used the dark side in the past, had little training, could easily have swayed by fear for the split second he admits, is wrecked by that failing and its consequences..."
Thanks. I mean, I don't think Luke has been a "everything is good or bad" since at least the cave on Dagobah, when it was literally shoved into his face.
what if Rian Johnson's goal was to make PT and ST fans see eye to eye?
95Mb ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 21:35:26 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
A lot of your post comes off abrasive, fyi. Be the change you want to see.
Argyrius ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 09:53:13 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
That's not my impression at all. The amount of holier than thou attitude posts and smug jokes about people who didnt like it is huge. Both sides have people who are being dicks about it.
Brio_ ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:39:07 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
That's just bullshit. People who don't like it are giving reasons why they don't like it. People who like it are telling people who don't like it that they're wrong.
Bohrdumb ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 21:50:48 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
This is accurate to a point. The first few hours were very much the opposite so people may be overly defensive at this point. Nobody is feeling good.
Well by now people on both sides have made asses of themselves.
Bohrdumb ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 22:14:05 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Very true. But I'm most disturbed by the post I read about how its Rey's fault Kylo went to the dark side. I unsubscribed from the sub for a bit after that.
Hmm I never seen that idea. I don't find any idea or personal stance offensive or wrong, I just could not stand when people on either side post the reasons why people of the opposing side felt they way they did and why those opinions were wrong. An example, a guy who liked it posted everyone who disliked it thought it wasn't enough like the originals and needed to accept change. Fair enough, but there are many reasons to like or dislike it and no one person knows how everyone feels. I'm cool with both sides and any reason for or against.
Bohrdumb ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:22:43 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Well you're wrong and here are my 62 points why...
I'll admit I got into it with some folks but usually try to work out why their support was errant. Like you can't claim you dislike it because X if x isn't actually what happened.
If you give reasons, and accept others reasons, then absolutely. Though...some people just like or dislike stuff because they do..not always a reason is present, which i I'm cool with too.
Maybe. But I see a lot more of the dislike crowd pulling out the "true fan" card. Maybe not overtly, but there is a lot of undertones to what they say about "ruining the past movies" or "ruining Luke" that implies IF ONLY everyone was a fan like they were they'd understand how it was ruined.
People get defensive and annoyed about that. I know I do. It's not just people not liking the movie, it's people claiming that it's destroyed the whole franchise.
JakalDX ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 21:53:19 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
My Facebook is full of people savaging the movie and acting like people who enjoyed it know nothing about anything. The whole reason I came here is because I feel like a dunce for liking it and it's nice to see that other people liked it too.
Anyone who thinks you're wrong for liking it is a putz. I disagree with most of your points, but Star Wars has in my opinion, always been about the personal perspective. What it means to the individual. How it resonates with them.
That being said, I'm one poor finish from IX making me write off the ST as badly as I did the PT, but if you're loving it, more power to you.
SwenKa ยท 76 points ยท Posted at 17:36:35 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
With this movie, I've written it off, I have no positive outlook for IX. My only hope is the off-shoots. I loved Rogue One, here's hoping the next ones are great.
Same. I didn't like TFA, but it left enough time for TLJ to salvage the trilogy. It's a lost cause for me now. I'll watch IX only to for the characters, I don't care about the story anymore.
The only way I can really describe it is that it just isn't Star Wars. It feels more like a generic action movie that was generated by some kind of action-movie-making algorithm by Disney. I've written off the ST but I have hope for Solo since Rogue One was so good as a standalone.
Banjoe64 ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 00:28:17 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
ii feel like solo would be difficult to get right from the get go because of who itโs about and who isnโt playing him. It would also be incredibly easy to take the easy way out while making this film and explain how he met chewie and Lando, obtained the falcon, and made the Kessel run along with something to do with Jabba (and probably Boba) at this breakneck pace of an action movie. ii mean ii hope itโs good but Iโm not gonna lie and say Iโm confident.
Yeah I definitely see the difficulty in getting it right. Rogue One was a once-off with brand new characters whereas Solo will have to build on characters we already love. Hopefully they can learn from the sequel trilogy's mistakes
Banjoe64 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 02:25:19 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
At this point Iโm convinced Gareth Edwards should do all the Star Wars films.
Did you watch the prequels before the OT? I was beginning to think that everyone who grew up with the prequels liked TLJ.
SwenKa ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 01:59:17 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Nope, saw the originals before. I was 9 when Phantom Menace came out, so by then I'd seen IV and VI at least once each, and V like a dozen times.
Nzash ยท 16 points ยท Posted at 00:34:42 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I'm pretty much done with Disney's MarvelWars as well, however I'll probably watch ep9 just to see what happens with Kylo.
Adam Driver is the only reason to keep watching this mess at this point, he's really doing a fantastic job.
Used to think Hux might be interesting but he turned into a really comical version of a space Hitler buffoon who's a total loser and clown, feels extremely childish.
SwenKa ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 00:45:51 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Adam Driver is the only reason to keep watching this mess at this point, he's really doing a fantastic job.
Given the material he's given, I think it's a decent job. Would really love to see more of that internal struggle and conflict come out, but it's lower on my list of gripes. To really rate his performance I'd need to rewatch TFA and TLJ, but I don't know that that will happen again soon.
The problem with TLJ is that there's nothing to look forward to in 9. No Carrie Fisher. Luke's dead. No exciting mystery to solve. What's the point?
VTKajin ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 04:18:22 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Uncharted territory? The apprentice has become the master and both he and the other main character (Rey) are deeply conflicted and inexperienced, and yet the fate of the Galaxy rests in their hands. Kylo is a fantastic character and I want to see how IX will wrap up his story. I also want to know what Rey's role is in all of this ultimately. If that doesn't excite you... oh well, I suppose.
Banjoe64 ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 00:24:45 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
ii loved rogue one as well and would be excited for the off shoots... except that the next one is Han Solo origins....
Of course he is, itโs his greatest shame. Itโs like Obi-Wan telling Luke that Vader killed his dad, not that he sliced his arms and legs off and left him to die in the most painful way burning to death.
Yeah I don't think anyone has a problem with people likng the film but damn do they go crazy if you say you didn't.
That is where the fight is coming from
Caiden019 ยท 58 points ยท Posted at 15:45:01 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I've got no issue with people who liked it. Everyone has a right to their opinion. It's the "lol all fanboys want to do is cry. You can never please them." or the "Anyone who like this film is an idiot." people that I can't stand.
[deleted] ยท 28 points ยท Posted at 16:12:30 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Fanboys do blow things way way out of proportion, letโs not pretend that they have a normal slate of expectations when walking into a Star Wars film lol. Denying that is just naive. Yes maybe expectations should be different because it is Star Wars, but that doesnโt change the reality.
Episode 9 could be the greatest movie ever made and since it is a NEW Star Wars film it would still be massively hated.
[deleted] ยท -2 points ยท Posted at 16:11:16 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
"Stupid fanboy, you're just pissed that your fan theories weren't true!"
Nah I'm pissed that the story wasn't that great, it was loaded with awkward bad humor and dialogue, had a casino scene straight out of Harry Potter, and apparently cruisers can demolish dreadnaughts shields be damned.
maglen69 ยท 22 points ยท Posted at 23:09:12 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
"You just didn't understand it".
No, I understood it and I didn't agree with the way it went and all the plot holes and terrible side stories.
Banjoe64 ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 00:37:15 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Thereโs really nothing to misunderstand... itโs not a โdeepโ movie. And not being โdeepโ isnโt what I๏ธ think makes it bad.
Come on now. By FAR it is the smartest star wars movie there is. I am not saying you ahve to like the plot or themes or whatever, but to even deny that it isn't the deepest and smartest Star Wars movie is a joke.
Banjoe64 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 17:28:16 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Iโm seriously not seeing that at all man. The story arc of Palpatines takeover in the prequels is smarter than TLJ. Itโs like they tried to be โdeepโ but fell flat. Besides, Star Wars isnโt really supposed to be deep. Itโs supposed to tell a good story and i donโt think TLJ accomplished that.
VTKajin ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 04:24:30 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I can agree with some of your reasons for disliking it, but ultimately the GOOD easily outweighed the bad for me.
wiifan55 ยท 71 points ยท Posted at 19:04:59 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
The downvotes are likely because you oversimplified or else mischaracterized most of the complaints against the film, which is a common trend on here amongst those who did like it.
You are getting downvotes because you've grouped all of the people who criticize the film into one fanatical hivemind which attacks anyone and everyone who enjoyed the film. That simply isn't true. There have been SO many threads on this subreddit in which the topic is "Everyone is hating on this film because their fan theory wasn't true" or "People need to stop whining about the movie and attacking the people who did like it," when there simply aren't that many people doing that. Many people are fed up with how many threads there are completely misrepresenting any criticism against the movie.
Stop using straw man as an argument. You're conflating most of the people who disliked the film as rude assholes whose fan theories didn't come true. That's not the case.
I don't see how anything she does in this film is out of the realm of her established abilities. She kicked some ass and moved some rocks. This is an issue how?
It was established in TFA she is good at fighting. We see her train with the lightsaber. What the fuck else do we need?
Luke: "Rey, you have trained for 1,000,000 hours with the lightsaber...you are now ready to actually fight with it!"
Come on people, get a clue.
Remember when Star Wars was praised for it's economical, tight and "show don't tell" storytelling? Yeah, me too. Now everybody needs a fucking textbook of answers and reasons as to why anything happens in these films.
So what exactly is the problem with Rey kicking some as in this film? Because she "wasn't trained enough"? Trained in what? The Force? You don't need to be a Jedi to use the Force. This is known lore. You don't even need to be a Jedi to use a lightsaber. This is known lore.
Why is somebody who isn't a Jedi who is deft at kicking ass and can handle a lightsaber such sacrilege to you people? It's never been established in the film that only Jedi Knights are capable of using a lightsaber. If fact, the CONTRARY was explicitly stated.
General Grievous was not a Jedi nor was a he Sith and he knew how to use lightsabers just fine.
No one said anything about lightsaber fighting. It's force abilities.
This is an issue cuz she has no training and training has been established as a vital part of using the force with proficiency.
Luke trained with Obi Wan and then underwent rigorous extended training with Yoda. After all that, we was barely able to lift an X-wing. Rey is told that the force exists and gets 3 lessons from Luke, and she individually levitates a huge pile of boulders.
Like I said, this only matters because it was established to matter in every star wars movie.
"I used to bullseye womp rats in my T-16 and they weren't much bigger"
No wait you're right, hitting a target with accuracy after years of practice while also being the son of the Force incarnate is probably the same as a nobody levitating thousands of pounds of rock with her mind after learning about the Force 2 weeks earlier.
See this reply I graciously typed up for someone else:
"WHAT? That's a totally arbitrary and nonsensical comparison. The Force isn't about enhancing your own abilities....
So you're saying that Rey has to be, what, really good at picking up rocks to be able to lift boulders with the Force????
The Force is about tapping in feeling, emotion and harmony. Rey focused on her love for her friends to lift the rocks."
And for the record, I love how people will call on one throw-away line of exposition to justify defending Lukes instant skill with the Force but totally ignore and purposefully misrepresent the exposition and context with Rey just to shit on her character.
And also for the record, if shooting rats in a hole with a little ship is enough to get you a position as a fighter jet pilot in the most important life or death mission of the Rebellion then surely it can be forgiven Rey is deft is at fighting, as was shown, and can lift rocks with The Force...which doesn't need past experience to accomplish. This notion that you need, like, a background in certain actions to use the Force for something is laughable and the definition of making shit up to complain about.
How you don't see the difference between someone having the Force help them do things human beings are already capable of and using the Force to lift thousands and thousands of pounds of rock is completely beyond me.
Hitting a target with a torpedo is still possible without being in tune with the Force.
Making literal tons of boulders float in the air is completely impossible without the Force.
One of these Force feats is clearly more impressive than the other. Can you guess which? Think real hard and maybe you can see why people are bitching about Rey being way too powerful.
I think that flying in a fight jet during a massive battle and using the force to push a missile into a hole that was canonically stated as being nigh impossible is much more unbelievable than standing still and moving some fucking rocks to help save your friends. But fuck me right, with my logic?!
You know what's logical? Providing proof for half-assed claims, because I've never heard that he pushed the missiles in with the force and the movie doesn't imply that it's how he did it (Han says the shot is "one in a million", not "Wtf how did you do that?" and there are several other rebel pilots looking to make that same shot).
Also, the "massive battle" is basically over when Luke makes the shot so it's not like he's distracted by enemy ships.
Are you kidding me? You can't be serious? Good god, you are aren't you? Luke using the Force to make the shot is like, one of the most famous scenes in the entire fucking franchise. And you're gonna play dumb about it.
You people will actively rewrite, misrepresent and blatantly lie about the originals films just to support your hatred for the new ones. This takes pathetic to a whole new level.
ratcaper ยท 56 points ยท Posted at 19:15:47 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
For me it was just the bad writing. If the exact same things you mentioned here happened, but the writing had been better, it would've been amazing.
I didn't like or hate it, I just thought it was weird.. I mean, so much filler and no real content...
iwiggums ยท 13 points ยท Posted at 20:27:51 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
This. I don't really mind any of the major plot points at all, I can even probably get over Luke losing all optimism and somehow deciding to kill his own student... yeah maybe not.
BUT the writing is about as sound as a dude covered in vaselines' grip on a wet catfish. If that wasn't so, my opinion of the movie would improve drastically.
I mean Luke didnt decide to kill him, he thought about it for a brief moment, then it passed. Its his greatest shame. Is it really unbelievable that he would have a moment of weakness, when he had a vision of all the pain and suffering Ben would cause? Many Jedi have struggled with dark impulses, including Luke himself. Of some of the flaws in this film I dont think that is one of them.
iwiggums ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 01:29:41 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
It was super filler! Nothing of any real significance happened besides Luke came back and then became a force ghost. Finn was off doing nothing for 2/3 of the film, all of his actions were so inconsequential BUT he appeared in a number of outfits so Disney can now sell lots more Finn action figures!
VTKajin ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 04:01:04 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
If TLJ was filler than so was ESB lol
ratcaper ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 10:11:02 on December 21, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Yeah the whole Finn arc was super weird and came down to nothing - the master coder didn't have any impact what so ever. Their capture was meaningless because they didn't get killed or learned any thing from it.
All it did was give purpose to the shot of the force kids in the end.
[deleted] ยท -2 points ยท Posted at 02:57:15 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
โThis is the one criticism of this film I canโt tolerate.โ
That kind of arrogant, holier-than-thou attitude is childish. Youโre not that important - get over yourself. No one cares if you personally canโt tolerate it. Itโs not relevant to anyone but you. People can like or not like the film for any reason(s), and communicate that in any way.
I didnโt like TLJ at all but I respect your opinions and Iโm glad youโre free to give them. I may disagree, but toleration is not something I concern myself with. You shouldnโt either.
The reason the Emperor worked without a deep character history in the originals is because the Star Wars universe was still new. There weren't 7 previous films to build from. Snoke is lazy writing. There wasn't anything creative or interesting about his character. He was a complete throw away.
I'm not sure why anyone cares about Rey's parents. I hope they dont even go into it in the third film. I hope she isn't Ren's sister, but they certainly hint at it... With this newest installment, it seems anyone can be a Jedi if they close their eyes and think hard enough. Being trained and studying the ways of the force is pointless now.
I don't understand what people like about Rey, other than her being an attractive woman with a British accent and a light saber. Her character arch compared to Luke's in the original trilogy is flat. What is her character arch? I'm not sure she even has one. OP even mentions in the post that she has always been this way. Thats boring and lazy writing. What makes characters interesting in films is how they change. She's just always been this way? Maybe one of you can educate me because I don't understand what makes her so popular other than what I just mentioned.
I have to ask. If the Jedi are celibate and don't pass on their connection to family then how does the Skywalker family even exist? How is Leia such a powerful force user that she can resurrect herself from the dead? These new movies are ripping apart all the world building that George Lucas was so good at.
Don't even get me started on the story with with Luke and Kylo Ren. What a missed opportunity. I don't understand why they wouldn't build up their relationship more. I wish I got to see Luke training Ren and what made him join Snoke and the dark side, then the parallels between him training with Snoke and Rey training with Luke. It would have given so much more gravity to everything that was going on, but the film has glaring pacing issues and everything seems to happen at light speed. None of these scenes breath. No moments really feel earned.
The humor in this film wasn't as good as the originals. If anything it felt even more dumbed down for children. People like to say Star Wars films are for kids and not for adults, but the originals did a pretty good job at not feeling this childish. Look a movies like the Incredibles, it does a great job of appealing to both adults and children, so I'll never understand the star wars is for kids argument. Isn't it rated PG-13?
I'm not sure how people think the one liners in this film compare to the originals, but I thought they weren't as strong compared to things like: "Thats no moon" "I am your father" "Never tell me the odds" Maybe one of you can give me one of the epic quotes from this last film I already forgot about. I will admit at least Yoda had some decent ones, but its Yoda. We expect some great quotes from the master.
I don't think Rian Johnson understands Star Wars and I'm really disappointed disney is going to let this guy make his own original trilogy in the star wars universe. This franchise is ruined and it only exists now to make money off of the fans by using cuteness, bad jokes, and pretty action scenes. There is no artistic integrity with these new films, just greedy business men that want to sell you crap.
I just went on a rant, so hopefully this makes sense. I'm happy you enjoyed it though! I hope I don't come across as a giant ass hole. May the force be with you!
Yep, people creating posts explaining to me how her being on jakku has made her a good fighter is for one bad storytelling and two not explained in either film at all. Her character has no depth or growth whatsoever, people seem to be acting like we're idiots for not assuming her upbringing taught her all of this. Well hate to break it to you films aren't meant to make you assume growth that already happened, they have to show in the movie itself, or explain it to us that it already which they have not yet. Another of the many reasons this movie was disappointing and offered no additional depth to the universe, if anything it caused the story to be trapped and head in a more linear fashion.
This franchise is ruined and it only exists now to make money off of the fans by using on cuteness, bad jokes, and pretty action scenes. There is no artistic integrity with these new films, just greedy business men that want to sell you crap.
holy crap have you listened to JJ Abrams, Gareth Edwards, or Rian Johnson talk about Star Wars?
The last interview I read with Rian Johnson, he is quoted saying he had to figure out why Luke was on the island and why he didn't want to leave. This is not good. That means Disney has no outline for this new trilogy. They don't know where they are going with the story. It's obvious with how this film ties into The Force Awakens. So many missed opportunities. So many things that ruin the lore from the originals.
Just look at how Rian handled Luke. In the original trilogy, Luke had the courage and was willing to sacrifice his life to convert Vader back to light. Yet in this movie it's revealed he is so fearful of the dark side that he is tempted to kill the son of his twin sister and best friend in his sleep just because he's shown tendencies of going towards the dark side?...
Having Luke being this fearful coward that has basically lead to this state where he is a hermit disconnected from the force didn't make much sense to me at all. There is literally nothing in the original trilogy that would lead you to believe the character development in Luke that Ep. 8 went with.
It would have been far more worthwhile to have Luke betrayed by Kylo during his training and in thwarting the attack Luke comes close to killing him almost submitting himself completely to the dark side. The guilt of his desire to kill Kylo and fear of his close descent to the dark side lead him to cloister himself and await the arrival of Kylo's balance in the force
He can't join the fight directly because in facing Kylo and possibly killing him he would become something far worse and darker. A true Sith overlord
jdawg254 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 05:01:51 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
That kinda reminds me of a book from the no longer canon universe, The one where luke is training Jaina solo to fight Jace solo because Luke knows he cant do it without going to the dark side.
It's in Legacy of the Force. I believe it was Fury. Luke discovers that Jacen was torturing Luke's son Ben in the Embrace of Pain, an old Yuuzhan Vong device, attacks Jacen in retribution and almost kills him but then stops because he realizes it would turn him to the dark side.
My problems with TLJ:
1. Leia will die at the hands of Kylo, not! She dies by the hands of other Tie fighters, not! She survives space with (surprise twist) the Force.
2. Luke will train Rey, not! He wants nothing to do with the force, not! He agrees to giving 3 lessons, not! He only gives 2.
3. The Jedi books gets destroyed by Luke, not! They get destroyed by Yoda, not! They were actually taken by Rey and are safe aboard the Millennium Falcon.
4. Luke dies from blasters, not! Luke dies from Kylo's saber, not! Luke dies from... (what???? cough heart attack cough)
Totally. I thought the movie was taking an amazing turn, which would have coincided with Carrie's untimely demise and helped out planning for episode 9. Instead, no balls and random ass force levitation. ffs
lost_mail ยท 25 points ยท Posted at 18:02:45 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I agree with your first point, and Leia should've died with the attack on the bridge.
Carrie Fisher has portrayed Leia very well. It was gut wrenching seeing Kylo getting ready to fire, deciding not to, and then have to witness his wingmen carry out the deed when he'd chosen mercy. The hopelessness and remorse he'd feel.
It left a great impression on me seeing Leia supposedly die, sucked into the void of space. I felt really sad, with a thought of "So this is how it ended", it felt complete.
Until she pulled herself back towards the ship and it went into a feeling of ridiculousness and that it was a bit over the top. It was beautiful the way it was up until that point.
Yeah the rest of her performance was good and it wouldโve been a waste out of that perspective to kill her.
Oyul ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:07:50 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I thought she was one of the best parts of the new film. Her flying through space was a bit odd at first but I think cemented the idea that sheโs actually a fucking powerful force user, and that there are people who use it in ways beyond waving lightsabers and moving rocks. Sheโs Kyloโs mother, sheโs Darth Vaderโs daughter... fuck yeah sheโs amazing.
Naildd it. I felt like Rian was shouting PSYCHE! over and over. Was really stupid.
Oyul ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 23:09:54 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I feel like people are only feeling this because they know Fisher is dead and thought TLJ would write her out and were expecting it any time she was in peril. She only had one real death scare.
The vast majority of the problems I had with the movie come down to that one thing: Rian was more focused on twists and surprising the audience than making sure the movie was actually well thought out. There's multiple plot lines that amount to twist after twist negating themselves, as well as meaningful moments reduced to nothing by smug jokes.
Thatโs not true. He wouldnโt have expected those things to happen if they werenโt portrayed as having happened in the film just to reveal that they didnโt happen that way. Itโs not just fair criticism but an accurate depiction of every plot โtwistโ in this shitty movie
Yeah in a movie where people move things with their mind, ever connected universe, light speed, laser swords, destroying planets.
People really didnโt complain with Darth maul came back even though he got cut in half and fell 400 feet lol
People donโt die in stuff like this
Let's just bring back Mace Windu. He only fell off a building after all. The emperor too, he only fell down a shaft. How about everyone aboard both Death Stars? Tarkin, Boba Fett, everyone. After all, people don't die in stuff like this. :)
Well hey, at least it's good to know there were zero casualties in this fictional story. Silly First order, firing their green neon lasers at our beloved characters. Don't they know people can't die in space?
Seriously dude. You got nothing to argue this. You're just being an ass now.
Where does the confidence to tell me why I expected Leia to die come from? What do you know that the rest of us donโt, oh wise one? I expected her to die because she got sucked out into space unprotected.
A lot of those were simply assumptions from before the film. Carrie Fisher dying? People expected Leia to. People also expected Luke to train Rey lol.
Citadelix ยท 66 points ยท Posted at 19:07:55 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
but but, the emperor in the OT didnโt have a backstory!
Itโs different now, due to the addition of the other movies, there needs to be an explanation of some reason why this man is so powerful and what was occurring in his life while he let Darth Sidious and Vader rule the Galaxy.
[deleted] ยท 30 points ยท Posted at 20:19:28 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
[removed]
Brio_ ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 23:40:24 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Wait, are you telling me after 8 movies maybe some things would need explaining that didn't need explaining in the first couple movies? Crazy!
VTKajin ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 04:03:51 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
There does. But it doesn't need to be in TLJ itself because that's to satisfy fans of the lore. A novel would do the job just fine.
[deleted] ยท -3 points ยท Posted at 02:38:23 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
What's "necessary" is entirely subjective. Rose, Holdo, the Codebreaker, and all the screentime they received were completely unnecessary and could have been replaced with better plot points.
Like maybe explaining where Snoke came from because it might actually be a really huge deal for the main characters to know in case Snoke wasn't alone and there are other Sith-like people out there.
bigtec ยท 35 points ยท Posted at 18:35:29 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Jedi aren't celibate they just can't form connections.
You can like this movie all you want, that's fine but I don't like this movie. A lot of what you're saying I have the opposite opinion.
You liked that whole Luke contemplating killing ben thing but I hate it because it goes against his character in the OT. He bent over backwards and almost died to redeem his father, a mass murderer and Sith Lord and also a dude who cut off his hand and someone he barely knows like at all but now he's suddenly okay with the idea of killing his nephew who has yet to do anything wrong at all?
And I'm sorry but the force doesn't work that way. You cant just believe the force into doing what you want, you need a teacher to show you how to harness that power. Even Anakin Skywalker needed to be TAUGHT how to use the force. Being force sensitive allows people certain passive advantages like faster reflexes and very limited precognition but Rey shows absurd control of the force like telekinesis and mind control then overpowering a way more experienced force user with no training whatsoever. There had to be SOME explanation but in this movie it's revealed that there isn't. She's just super powerful for no reason. Btw idgaf she's a girl, not saying you'd make that argument against me but I'm just putting that out there.
I actually like the humour and I don't mind it Even if it is marvel like.
I don't mind that her parents were nobodies but then why the hell were they even hyped to be this big reveal in TFA? The same with Snoke. why were they trying to make it seem like he was this powerful mysterious dark side user if all he does is die like a bitch in the next movie?
Again you can like the movie and I won't attack you for it but at the same time I hated it.
VTKajin ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 04:05:43 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
You can dislike the movie all you want, as long as everyone who did (along with everyone who liked it) realize that it's all opinion.
Oyul ยท -7 points ยท Posted at 23:31:49 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Seems like youโre angry that the story didnโt go the way you expected and wanted it to and got carried away by fan theories and ignored what the film actually told us. Reyโs parents werenโt hyped in TFA. They were just a device to keep her on Jakku when she had the wits and resourcefulness to leave virtually any time she wanted. She has abandonment issues, and her arc is about moving on and finding belonging elsewhere. But people so desperately wanted her to be the child of someone important that they projected all kinds of theories and ignored that the filmโs themes which were all but spelled out by Maz.
Also Luke was not ok with murdering his nephew. As he explains in the film you just watched, he contemplated it for a split second then decided against it. Luke struggled with the dark side in the OT. Itโs not breaking character to say he still does momentarily. Luke only helped his own father after heโd battered him to a bloody pulp and was about to murder him at a point when Vader was helpless. Luke walking back from that dark edge was an iconic moment. Him about to kill his sleeping nephew was a reference to that moment, as was his decision to not go through with it.
And blah blah blah, Rey is too powerful. Not a criticism usually lobbed at Male force users, even when they demonstrate greater powers with less training. Anakin can pod race at 10 and blow up battle cruisers his first time in a fighter, and Luke can go from farm boy to ace pilot using the force to blow up the Death Star in the space of, what, a few days? Weeks? Rey is not allowed to be prodigiously strong?
It has nothing to do with her being a girl. I also thought she seemed way overpowered (and PS- my favorite Star Wars characters are Ahsoka and Ventress.) It's the fact that she got next to no training and is far more powerful than Anakin and Luke at the same spots in their training.
What if I said, โIf you want to say you donโt like apples for their flavor or texture, fine, but donโt tell me theyโre not nutritious.โ
Talidel ยท 19 points ยท Posted at 20:38:11 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
It wasn't nutritional. It was junk food.
The most plastic scraped off the floor and mass produced junk food that you can buy.
NordJitsu ยท -6 points ยท Posted at 20:42:31 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
You missed the point. Heโs allowed to have an opinion on which criticism are valid and which are not.
Talidel ยท 16 points ยท Posted at 20:50:34 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Indeed, I feel you missed the point that every one is entitled to have an opinion on an opinion.
Though if you want to call a burger an apple, I'm going to point out you are wrong. If you want to claim that in your opinion a burger is an apple, well I'm still going to tell you you are wrong.
Opinions aren't facts, and an opinion can be wrong. The point in places like this are to provoke discussion, and well nothing gets people talking like wild statements of fact.
Read this thread. Look at what's being downvoted. I come to an agreement with someone and it's downvoted. People are going into my post history and downvoting me. This if fucking crazy
kmoros ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 04:25:57 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
You gotta remember that ultimately you are in the Star Wars subreddit. The first day or two was maximum hate, but eventually people who don't like it leave and its once again more hardcore star wars fans, who of course will lean positive on the movie.
We could go on without these useless condescending threads right? You don't have to dismiss all criticism with an "I don't care and neither should you" attitude while asking people to respect your view
whoa you totally missed my point. I'm saying I don't relate to your criticism, not that it's wrong. If your criticism is based on your personal feelings, It can't be wrong.
As someone who did not enjoy The Last Jedi but desperately wants to, I feel compelled to reply to this...and I seek to do so respectfully, as you requested and as we all deserve. It's really not worth fighting with internet strangers over a movie.
So I'm gonna go through your post point by point and give my thoughts, no matter how short or long they may end up being. Before doing so let me preface this by saying I am honestly really glad there are people out there who liked or even loved the movie, I'm actually really jealous of you and I certainly respect your opinions and don't look down on you for liking the movie. I also acknowledge that I know this post wasn't necessarily directed at me personally, but I will be responding as if it were for the sake of my comment.
Snoke's backstory might have been important to you
I wouldn't say that Snoke's backstory was necessarily IMPORTANT to me, I was just curious. And I'm not really upset that we didn't get his backstory, I'm just generally upset with how his character was handled, specifically in TLJ. In TFA Snoke was mysterious and terrifying and I was fascinated by him. But we were never really given a reason to hate him in either film. For me at least, I never felt like he was pure evil, just that he was the mastermind and authority behind the First Order. This lack of hatred built towards Snoke takes a lot of weight out of his death that would otherwise be there.
If you needed Rey's parents to matter, that's fine
This is another thing that I'm actually not particularly upset with. In fact, I am totally fine with Rey's parents being nobodies. However, once again I am not okay with how it was handled, specifically in TLJ. Obviously TFA left us all wondering who her parents were, and it was fully expected that it would be revealed in TLJ. And throughout TLJ it was teased that it was going to be revealed and the entire time this curiosity is mounting and I'm so sure that it was going to be something huge, only for it to be totally meaningless. Why bother building all that mystery and curiosity (that was already there from TFA) only to have it be nothing?
If you hated Luke contemplating killing Ben, then I don't know what to tell you
Me either, this was perhaps the one thing I enjoyed about how Luke was handled in TLJ.
f you hated the humor, that's fine too, but I don't understand why everyone was fine with it for 8 other movies
This is the one point you made that I do take great issue with. Suggesting that the humor in TLJ is similar to the humor in any other Star Wars movie is laughable (except MAYBE for TFA).
For starters there is a lot more humor throughout TLJ than in any other Star Wars film to date. But the quantity of jokes is not my biggest issue, but it is the jokes themselves. The movie literally starts with a gag between Poe and Hux that is cheesy and drags on for far too long.
This brings me to my biggest problem with the jokes and it is broken down into two major parts:
A. There is joking between the light and dark side, good guys and bad.
I'm sure many will argue that there was joking between good guys and bad guys in previous movies, and I would agree. However, in this movie it sucks all the tension out of these scenes, whereas in previous films it served to enhance the intensity.
A friend of mine brought up a good point, why should we be afraid of or respect the First Order when Poe himself clearly doesn't right off the bat in this movie (or when Rey asks Kylo to put on a shirt..)? You can argue that it's "within his character" but it doesn't change the importance of the fact that it sucks the tension out of the interactions between these opposing forces.
B. Jokes in TLJ are gags, they require set-up and IMO it is not executed well (I could see almost all of the jokes/funny moments coming from a mile away). They also last longer than they should (i.e the Poe and Hux scene at the beginning). Compare this to previous Star Wars films (especially the OT) where almost all (if not all) funny moments were quick quips or had no words at all but were merely facial expressions/droids being cute.
I can totally respect that people love TLJ but I can't believe anyone who doesn't think the humor fell flat on it's face at many moments.
From here on I either agree with the rest of your post or I simply don't understand what you're trying to say.
I will point out though that a lot of the moments where you think Rey was using the force (Jedi Mind trick on the junker, waking Finn up, lining up Finn's shot)... I'm pretty sure she wasn't, or that fact just flew over my head somehow.
Lastly I will say you missed what are two of my biggest problems with this movie.
Leia flying through space back into the ship. Now I'm not here to argue if this is even possible in the world of Star Wars, that's a whole other thing. The whole execution of this moment was just terrible and cheesy and made me shake my head in disappointment. Especially cause I thought "hey, this is a pretty good way to kill off Leia, and awww there doing a heart felt scene where we witness her final moments" followed by "....what the actual fuck was that".
Now this is my biggest problem with the movie. Luke's death.
No, not the fact that he died...I fully expected that. But the way it was handled was awful IMO. I think it just could have been executed better, I don't have an answer as to how...I'll have to think more on that. But the biggest problem with it is the fact that we got no heart felt moment, not a single heartstring was tugged on, he simply vanished and that was it.
All that being said. I will be going back for my second viewing sometime after Christmas. I rarely see movies twice in theaters, especially not when I didn't enjoy them... so understand that while I didn't enjoy this movie, I still love it because it is a Star Wars movie and Star Wars is a franchise that I hold near and dear to my heart.
TL;DR- I didn't like TLJ. I felt that the execution of most of the movie was poor, especially when it came to humor. My biggest problems in order are how Luke's death was handled, humor being poor and not that funny anyways, Leia flying back to her ship after she was surely dead. And all that said I'm still seeing it a second time and buying it when it comes out on DVD.
As a genuine fan of the Prequels, I have come to accept that people have a right to their reactions to the movies though I still find myself disappointed when they try to explain that the films were objectively bad and it isn't possible to like them.
One of the most pertinent themes in this film was the idea of not being too precious about the past. The Books of the Jedi, Anakin's lightsaber - it's important to be able to let go.
I just envy you for loving the prequels. I wish I could, but to me they're mediocre. Not terrible, but mediocre.
I liked TLJ though, and I can't wait to watch it again in a week or so.
What is really important to me, and I really appreciate is that you included "for me." That's a doorway we can walk through together :-)
For me I found them to be epic and stirring but there are elements I personally didn't feel were executed well. I want to believe in the romance but I felt like it was a little too contrary.
I'll keep my dislike simple. They added a new force to the franchise. I'll call it space gravity. Bombers (in space) that need a gravity like force to deploy weapons, and cannons that now appear to have trajectory arcs. Star wars barely does anything to earn the science part of sci-fi as is, but that was just too much for me. We now have gravity that binds everything together, 'the force' that binds everything together, and now another space gravity that binds everything together. If they needed so much binding in their universe they should buy some duct tape.
Space gravity was in the OT buddy. Seriously go watch them again. So was space audio and space explosion fire balls. So was humor (bad and good), kiddie shit (bad and good), story beats for the sake of filling time, as well as negative fanboy reactions to all of that.
Do you think they had Luke drinking the milk in almost an echo of how Luke felt when he met Yoda. Disappointed. Rey and Luke were both expecting a great hero/warrior but instead they find some weird hermit who makes them feel uncomfortable. Btw. I liked TLJ.
I like Snoke's "Darkness rises, and light to meet it" idea. Rey is the balance necessary to counteract Snoke and Kylo
Caobei ยท 12 points ยท Posted at 20:32:56 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
The simple test for me is this.
Is this series being treated with the same care, craftsmanship, intensity, as say The Lord of the Rings? I want a Star Wars that is close to that. The story, plot, and pacing should be as good or better than the CGI, use of the force or explosions. I don't see that happening yet.
"Frodo Baggins has vanished. In his absence, the sinister DARK DOMINION has arisen from the ashes of Mordor and will not rest until Baggins, the last Ring Bearer, has been destroyed.
With the support of the SHIRE, Samwise Gamgee leads a brave FRIENDLINESSSHIP. He is desperate to find his friend Frodo and gain his help in restoring peace and justice to Middle Earth."
Artif3x_ ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 21:42:30 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I'd like to think after a hundred years creative improvement, we could produce a better story than J. R. R. Tolkien. I've certainly read better books than LOTR.
OP you literally just told us all "that doesn't make either of us wrong" then tried to tell everybody who disliked the film why they're wrong. How you don't realize you're being a hypocritical, passive-aggressive dick is beyond me but I pity anybody that has to put up with your shit irl.
Up front, I'm a Special Effects Artist and I got my degree in Entertainment Design because of my love of SW, the years I spent enthralled in behind the scenes books and reading EU novels. The last three films have looked and felt much more like the OT, the performances were good and the art direction and production design work very well. These are huge improvements over the prequel trilogy. Many films are just as convoluted these days, but considering the resources available, these new SW films should have been a lot better examples of the craft. I respect your opinion, but you haven't really defended your point. I'd like to try and explain:
I just think you should consider the idea of "liking" a film, vs. the idea that it's a well-crafted project in the context of the medium. These are two different things, you can like whatever you want. If someone challenges you on that, they've likely taken that to mean that you think it's a good film. You can't argue that with the things you've cited. The main plot points are essentially usable, it's the way they were strung together, and there was a lot of unnecessary fat.
The execution of story elements is sloppy and heavy-handed, too literal and too much exposition in dialogue. The same major plot points (that you explain how you liked) could be hit by a complete re-write, one which flows much better, is more subtle, develops characters more, establishes better motivation, trims a ton of fat, and produces a much more elegant example of film making.
I personally think that considering the resources, the fans and the franchise deserved such a film. That's the source of my frustration.
I think people are entitled to like things that are empirically bad, or dislike things that are empirically good. What we like and dislike is subjective and part of who we are as people, so understandably that's often close to our heart, and we take it personally when it's questioned. With that in mind, the film could be improved technically, and I think everyone would like it more than they already do, or don't. That was all I was saying.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 06:22:23 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
This isn't opinion wars, I'm talking about the criteria by which we measure the medium. We use criteria to judge many different things in the context of their own medium, this is no different. Classic, good examples of film making have established qualities, some are deliberate, some were accidents, but they've caused the medium to grow. We teach these fundamental things to people learning to work in the medium, because you must know the rules before you can break them.
Many people like bad films, they can be quite likable. They can be great in that context. All I'm saying is that confusion can happen when people don't separate these two things. Everyone's free to like or love anything, but you can't defend it as empirically good on that idea alone. To try and use criteria by which we measure quality in film making, TLJ does not score that highly. That's all I'm saying.
bcarter12 ยท 18 points ยท Posted at 20:53:02 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
If you accept that we hated it why did you just write a novel telling us how we're wrong?
Dude, you don't need my or anyone else's approval or validation to like a thing. I'll go as far as saying I'm glad you like it. The more people that like it, the more people there are in the world who are happy about something. I wouldn't wish for you or anyone else to feel as miserable about TLJ as I do.
So if you think that rey doesn't need to be "someone" to be "something" so to speak, why do you think luke kept on asking her "who are you?"
To me it seemed like he was maybe asking her who parents were, maybe he was just startled that someone that age with that much power had stayed off his radar for so long. Interested on your take
Well does Luke really have the same perspective of the Jedi or force users we do? He himself if is part of a lineage of powerful force users and so is the fourth most powerful force user heโs ever met, Kylo. With Rey being so powerful he probably thought what we did.
Part of me totally doesn't buy the sold for drinking money line. Doesn't seem to match up with the flashback we saw in TFA and yeah it would be cool to have a nobody be powerful enough to compete in the big leagues with the skywalker lineage but seriously, as powerful as Kylo? Doesn't have me convinced.
Edit: what I mean to say is it totally wouldn't be past a dark side force user to lie and tell her something that isn't true (think "I can save the one you love") in order to try and get her to join up. Either way, really well written movie in my opinion.
until that point she hadn't told Luke about her connection to the Force. Luke wanted to know why she was sent instead of an officer in the resistance, like Poe.
Ros96 ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 02:57:56 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I would also like to point out the 'plot hole' that people tend to point out if Luke went to Ach-To to die then why did he leave a map to him. It was the map he used to find Ach-To not left for people to find him they just called it the map to Skywalker as that's where he could have possibly been.
The man who gave the map to Poe was a guy who worshipped the force so it could be possible that he and Luke found the place together by studying old texts or he simply found it after Luke told him thatโs where heโs going. Really not a plot hole at all, people just donโt know who that guy is.
"If you hated the humor, that's fine too, but I don't understand why everyone was fine with it for 8 other movies."
I don't know. Nothing in Star Wars has ever felt as unapologetic as that first scene with hux and poe. You don't make a character completely forget his essence just to make a joke work. It felt...slapstick.
I still loved the movie, but there are certain scenes that make my head spin with questions as to why.
bigtec ยท 9 points ยท Posted at 18:35:35 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Jedi aren't celibate they just can't form connections.
You can like this movie all you want, that's fine but I don't like this movie. A lot of what you're saying I have the opposite opinion.
You liked that whole Luke contemplating killing ben thing but I hate it because it goes against his character in the OT. He bent over backwards and almost died to redeem his father, a mass murderer and Sith Lord and also a dude who cut off his hand and someone he barely knows like at all but now he's suddenly okay with the idea of killing his nephew who has yet to do anything wrong at all?
And I'm sorry but the force doesn't work that way. You cant just believe the force into doing what you want, you need a teacher to show you how to harness that power. Even Anakin Skywalker needed to be TAUGHT how to use the force. Being force sensitive allows people certain passive advantages like faster reflexes and very limited precognition but Rey shows absurd control of the force like telekinesis and mind control then overpowering a way more experienced force user with no training whatsoever. There had to be SOME explanation but in this movie it's revealed that there isn't. She's just super powerful for no reason. Btw idgaf she's a girl, not saying you'd make that argument against me but I'm just putting that out there.
I actually like the humour and I don't mind it Even if it is marvel like.
I don't mind that her parents were nobodies but then why the hell were they even hyped to be this big reveal in TFA? The same with Snoke. why were they trying to make it seem like he was this powerful mysterious dark side user if all he does is die like a bitch in the next movie?
Again you can like the movie and I won't attack you for it but at the same time I hated it.
Iโm fairly certain Jedi consider sex to be a connection.
Edit: actually let me step up and say I was wrong here. Jedi are allowed to have sex, according to George Lucas (makes no sense George), but not allowed to have families or possessive relationships. So itโs basically a swingers club and thereโs an abortion clinic in the Jedi temple.
Her parents were hyped to be a big reveal in TFA on purpose because they wanted us to feel what Rey feels. Iโm astonished that more people donโt realize this.
Movie 1: Rey is all excited and nervous and in anticipation to find her parents. Sheโs in denial about their true trashy natures and she hopes theyโre great, amazing people who had to leave her for Good Reasons. We feel the same way! Even though Maz Kanata tells her the truth, Rey refuses to listen and so do we.
Movie 2 Part A: Rey has to admit that her parents were actually nobodies. Her childish and naive hopes and fantasies were just that: fantasies. Sheโs been sticking her head in the sand and now that sheโs admitted it to herself, she feels stunned and hurt and upset. So do we.
Movie 2 Part B: Rey comes to accept that she can make her own path without her parents. She doesnโt need loving parents or a famous last name or legacy at all to believe in herself and be a hero. She accepts her destiny and begins to believe in herself. And weโre supposed to do the same; weโre supposed to accept that our obsession with her parents was foolish and pointless (just as Ben tells her โYour obsession with your parents is your greatest weakness, itโs holding you back!โ) and that we had our priorities wrong. Itโs REY who matters, not her parents.
Unfortunately, a lot of fans seem stuck at Movie 2 Part B. They canโt get over it. They seem to think we were tricked when, in fact, we were just mislead on purpose for storytelling purposes. Itโs done in every book and movie (i.e. J.K. Rowling leading us and Harry to believe that Sirius Black is a murderous maniac for much of The Prisoner of Azkaban). Iโve simply never known a bunch of people to get so pressed over what is, essentially, a basic storytelling device. JJ Abrams signed off on every decision Rian made and Maz Kanata basically told us the truth in TFA; people need to face that this was the plan all along.
imissgsp ยท 10 points ยท Posted at 21:49:44 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Nice way of justifying it and spinning it back to me like I'm at fault for somehow expecting a movie to follow its lore. Lmao try again next time bud
Seriously, whatโs this insane obsession with backstories all of a sudden? No one ever cared before with literally dozens of important characters. Now all of a sudden weโre all gonna die if we donโt know every minute detail of Snokeโs life.
Yeah I always thought that was what the books/cartoons were for. Did people expect Snoke to launch into a monologue about his life?? I mean it was pretty clear what was going on, the fact he had the imperial guard, had that massive ship, the FO being on Jakku. He was obviously some type of Sith hiding in the outer rim.
Yeah, like the universe is a BIG ASS PLACE. Obviously Snoke just crept in once it seemed like there was peace and then once Luke (his last threat) vanished, Snoke fully appeared. He was a boring and stereotypical alien villain and even if we had gotten his backstory, people would not have been impressed. He had about as much intrigue and gravitas as Ronan the Accuser (which is to say, none at all). And just as Ronan wasnโt the true villain of GotG but Thanos was, Snoke was merely a red herring. He was never the true villain, Kylo Renโs internal conflict and chaos is. Iโm surprised so many people want a boring and clichรฉ backstory on Supreme Leader Red Herring.
imissgsp ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 07:04:28 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Questions no one's asking. Good one. They took subplots from the last one. Shit all over them, created new subplots with new characters no one cares about and then redacted our favorite characters to cameos. But yeah everyone's asking who's Yoda's parents ya right
Why can sooo many other movies be criticized so easily but this one cant? If you set up multiple important plot points people are going to expect a journey about it. The first movie set up reys background, the first order rising to power led by snoke, finns defect, kylos background. Somehow we got next to none of that! Like am i watching lost here? Two lines and a scene that literally made no sense to for reys background? No background for snoke and no explanation of any semblence of a goal other than having kylo as a sidekick? Then he gets jobbed without a fight? Finn got no development. Poe got some weird development. Purple haired ladys character didnt quite make sense. Phasma was a major player in the first order - got jobbed again, probably permanently. Fine. Ship chase was so boring. Good lord. The jokes were not funny. Not even compared to the 40 year old original. Porgs... i hate when they pull stuff like this in movies but whatever.
There were great parts! Loved luke, loved kylo, loved the visuals, liked the hacker guy until he had no sound purpose other than having screentime.
The problem i and many others have is the complete denial of any major faults in this film. The sw universe has so much to pull from now, its crazy that you can make a movie where next to nothing (other than luke) of consequence happens.
The movie felt a lot like this passage im writting! Scattered and lazy!
Last thing. Not sure whos idea it was to have so many fake outs in the movie, but it was played out after the second.
Artif3x_ ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 21:39:24 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I'm fine with people's opinions, yours in the first half of this post included. I'm also fine with you ignoring the movie you just watched and making stuff up out of thin air in the last half of this post, in an effort to salve whatever emotional wounds you've taken from reading too many negative viewer comments.
The idea that Rey is not just competent but is super-proficient at everything she tries the first time she does it somehow because she is using the Force the whole time has no basis in the actual movie, which is always clear about when force powers are being used. You pointing out stuff that could be is no more revelatory than me saying that Rey could still be a Skywalker or a Kenobi, and Kylo's just lying to her. I'm ignoring the script and intent of the story when I say that--I know she's not, but it could be!
Rey could have used mind trick on someone before she even met Kylo Ren! She could have woken up Finn after the TIE attack! She could have used the Force to line up Finn's attack! Yoda could have visited her in the Jakku desert and trained her to be a Jedi! Look, I can do it, too!
VTKajin ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 03:54:52 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I'm being nitpicky about your post here, but the only special lineage in SW is Skywalker. Being a Kenobi is equivalent to being no one.
For me, it was because much of the acting seemed extremely forced and unnatural. There were undoubtedly moments of brilliance: Laura Dernโs characters jump to lightspeed, Roseโs sister dying, Finn flying into the BFG, the various sides of LUke and Rey and Kyloโs internal battles. These moments were far to few and far between, and to me feel disjointed from the rest of the film.
Iโm currently thinking that this may actually have come down to last minute edits that changed the tone of the film.
Oscar Isaacsโ performance seemed very hallow and unnatural imo. He definitely didnโt seem like someone with an agenda, or the outward tenacity to pull off a mutiny. Nowhere on TLJ did his performance match the tone of his scenes- yet in Suburbicon he was able to command the scenes he was in. The guy can act, and Iโm a huge fan of his, but I wasnโt feeling it. (I did however appreciate how he was basically Maverick from Top Gun. I was waiting for a variation on โyou can be my wingman anytimeโ after he realizes heโs wrong).
Laura Dernโs character was so obviously set up to be a plot twist (cold calculated/suspicious character isnโt actually evil: has fleets best interest at heart / random cop-out) that I couldnโt help but watch her character go through the paces.
John Boyegaโs only instance where his performance seemed to match the tone of the film was where he was going to sacrifice himself for the resistance (he almost got the ending he deserved).
Kelly Marie Tranโs character felt incredibly 1 dimensional to me, I personally could not relate to her, nor could I feel any empathy towards her actions.
Mark Hamill knocked it out of the park, like his Luke in this film or not - the dude brought his A game.
Daisy Ridley and Adam Driver both gave incredible performances.
Decado7 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 04:09:51 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
This is a really good post, particularly what you said about Rey. Some of the other character arcs aside, I did feel that Rey suddenly became this evolved hero, but what you said about Force Awakens was so true.
I haven't come to the opinion that I really liked or disliked the movie. I need to think about it more plus also see it again. One thing that really did disappoint me however is how the Rebel Alliance as I knew and loved it is basically gone - or rather, has been reduced to ten people or so.
It's possible that the story needed to have the slate wiped clean or we'd be enduring a never-ending struggle of the same nature as the movies before, but i guess it will become clear where the series is going when the third movie is released.
It's painful not having a preview akin to the end of a Netflix series!
wetz1091 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 04:56:56 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Am I the only one that doesn't buy that her parents are nobodies? I think Kylo was lying.
Notworld ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 05:43:08 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
What if I hate that there was no Knights of Ren?
I liked Rey's parents being "nobody", but that's about it. I would have liked to see her get some kind of training. I was pretty much okay with her higher than average power level in TFA (except her using a Jedi mind trick), but other than that it was all okay even if she was a bit of a Mary Sue. But with TLJ they went so far with it and it made her character uninteresting. She's so good and so strong and so great that she isn't even slightly tempted to join Kylo when she has reason to do so that make sense. What was the point of showing us her get pulled to the dark side when she was on the island earlier if she wasn't even going to be at least some what tempted by the dark side.
There's no point in arguing about humor preferences but the reason I didn't like it is because it just seemed out of place most of the time (like the very first scene).
And I get what you're saying about Snoke, but in the context of this new trilogy a character like that does need a backstory. In the OT the Emperor didn't need one because you just needed to know he was very bad and very powerful. With Snoke we need to know where he came from because it doesn't make sense for a being like that to just appear in the context of the OT leading up to the new movies. I like that they killed him, I didn't expect it and it's pretty cool that Kylo is now the main bad guy. It just seems so hollow and lazy not to give us some kind of information on him.
Anyway, I'm not trying to tell you how to feel or say you're wrong, I guess I'm just venting. Oh and I thought they ruined Luke's character. And I hated the casino planet and everything about those scenes. Okay that's all. I guess I'm full of hate. Next stop, dark side.
she uses the Jedi Mind trick to get BB-8 from the Junker.
You may be right but I saw that as more of a territorial thing that the scavengers all had their own territories and you don't go grabbing stuff in someone else's area of claim. It was to me showing the fact that Rey was someone people had learned not to screw with. (IE she can handle herself) and that idiot trying to nab BB8 in her territory knew he had best better back off if he didn't want to get sticked upside the head.
If you are upset about how quick Rey becomes a kick-ass hero, you aren't looking for answers in the right place
People are looking at this issue the wrong way around. Rey's struggle has never, ever been about gaining power to do something. Rey never wanted to become a Jedi because she actually wanted to, she did it because her real struggle is to have a feeling of belonging.
Anakin's struggle was about love, which is why the main point of episodes 2 and 3 was hiding and protecting the ones he loved with the power he had, while hiding it from the Jedi Order. Power came easily to Anakin because from a narrative perspective, his struggle was about his inability to protect the ones he loved, not gaining power in the first place.
Luke's struggle was about becoming a Jedi, which is why all the trials and tribulations he had to go through, throughout the original trilogy, was about him learning to become a Jedi. His struggle to gain his power is much more emphasised because that was his goal. He wanted to go out on adventures and defeat The Empire etc. so that's why it took so long for him.
So far, both protagonists for the PT and OT have wanted power to do something. For Anakin it was to protect Padmรฉ, and for Luke, it was to defeat The Empire.
Rey wants to belong somewhere. She spent the best part of twenty years on Jakku, beholden to somebody who didn't actually give a shit about her, with the promise that maybe her parents will come back for her. She leaves Jakku and hopes to find a home with Han and The Resistance, only to have Han snatched away from her, right when she was finding her place. Then TLJ comes along, and she thinks she can find a place with Luke, but he doesn't want to train her, so she thinks that maybe her place is trying to redeem Kylo Ren, but that's rejected too.
For Rey, getting power is not part of her struggle, and it never was. She doesn't want power, she wants to belong somewhere, and she's clinging to whoever she can and whatever she can to give her purpose and somewhere to call home.
In the end, I believe her story will end where she either becomes able to stand on her own, or build her own home around her, taking control of her own life and actually making decisions about what she wants, not what she believes is expected of her.
Fans seem to forget these crucial details, and instead focus on power levels, like we're watching an episode of Naruto/DBZ and all that matters is about how powerful a character is, not how that power plays into the narrative being told.
You summarized so much and so well a lot of what I feel with all the criticism arround TLJ.
I'm with you on liking the movie, actually I loved it.
It'ss almost as if all those star wars fans hating on the movie and on Rian didn't deserve the movie they got...
[deleted] ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 23:25:11 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
VTKajin ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 03:51:51 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
lol
tycllns ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 01:01:09 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Snoke was a threatening villian yes but I don't think he was that interesting. I don't think he is dead though. It seemed far too easy.
I'm not even a huge fan of the movie and I didn't give a damn about Snoke. Him getting cut in half and paving the way for Kylo Ren was the best thing he did.
For me, I really liked it. There was a lot wrong with it, I could spout the same things everyone has said about the casino planet and some of the humour and I agree that it was unnecessary. But this movie left me speechless on several occasions- the lightsaber explosion, the kamikaze light speed, the Luke fake out deaths, Yoda etc. I am able to look past the problems, and if you hate it then I see your arguments as completely valid.
I see a lot of people saying that Palpatine's weak back story (just a few lines of dialogue like Snoke, until the prequels and books) and cheap death (tossed into the Pit of Misery, Dilly Dilly!) are excusable because Star Wars was new and/or fun.
I agree to a point, but I get it. The bigger thing to take from is Star Wars has never been known for it's great writing. Every movie has major plot holes, forced drama, cheap jokes, and inconsistencies within in their own trilogies, let alone the whole universe.
Star Wars has been and always will be about one thing, first and foremost: fun. These are fun movies.
The action is fun.
The cinematography is fun and exciting.
The energy is high.
So many characters are doing so many things, even if it's busy work.
Laser guns.
Laser swords.
Ships with lasers.
Big explosions.
Fast paced vehicles.
Space Samurai dueling.
Magic powers (force)
While there is the occasional plot twist in these films, they typically aren't original or well-written. The movies are typically obvious in their plot.
Some negative things that are noticeable throughout the movies or in the past:
Whiny Characters: Luke in the OT, Anakin in the PT, C3PO in everything
Reused Plot devices: 3 death star-ish destructions (4 if you include Anakin blowing the federation ship to stop droids)
Everyone's related: for such a large universe, so many of the characters that are super important are also super-related, making the universe seem smaller
Plot holes: Every movie has got em. But Star Wars has a lot, and a lot of it has to do with how capable tech and force powers make everyone. They don't often explain a lot of the tech in the movies, which leads to many plot holes such as trees smashing chicken walkers, but large blasters not doing the trick. Or in TLJ, the rebel ships are smaller and faster, yet never escape or get further away and the first order never calls in more destroyers to jump ahead of their location.
There's a lot wrong with Star Wars from a critical perspective. Always has been. There is no "Dark Knight" in the Star Wars universe, meaning a movie that is so good, it transcends the trilogy or saga within which it takes place.
So back to my original point of Palpatine vs Snoke in terms of back-story and death, if you tolerate it for Palpatine, you should tolerate it for Snoke. Otherwise, it may be that your nostalgia is letting you get away with some special pleading.
I'm not saying you are right or wrong for liking a movie. I'm saying that from what I've been reading, a lot of people here are not being consistent with their critiques or arguments for things they did or didn't like.
I didn't hate it, I just felt that TFA and Rogue One were much better, especially Rogue One. The acting by Mark in this new one almost ruined the entire movie for me, it was cringeworthy to say the least. And Finn's overacting is awful too, I dont know how he ever got that role. I'm not looking for Oscar performances but damn they're almost B movie quality actors to me.
To me it's like the prequels in that sense, but also it's goddamn great unlike them
VTKajin ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 04:27:18 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
TLJ has been competing against RotS in my heart for favorite SW movie.
kadeus21 ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 22:33:21 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
For sure. Prequels were hamstrung by weird vision, terrible acting and lackluster story
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 06:00:59 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
The script for for the actors was horrendous in the prequels, but the story itself in my opinion is the best of star wars, palpys manipulation of the galaxy was great and somehow made politics seem exciting and tense.
Couldn't agree more with every single thing you said. Well done.
cerebrix ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 00:33:11 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Way to make this post about yourself.
I'm sorry but. I dont know you. Nor do I have to respect you, or your opinion.
respect is EARNED not given.
If you find conflicting opinions upsetting. again, thats more about you than anything else.
if other people's opinion of a star wars movie is upsetting enough to make you post about it.
you don't need to be on reddit. you need to call a physician.
because worrying this much about strangers,
IS NOT NORMAL
tycllns ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 00:59:29 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
You seem to be upset, maybe just take a break from the internet for a while. Maybe go outside or volunteer at an old folks home. We're all rooting for you over here.
Great post and I could not agree more. Just wanted to piggyback on one thought: Rey's parentage. Rey coming from nothing is wonderfully in line with Luke's "The force should be for everyone" sentiment. Obviously this thread of inclusiveness is a running theme throughout the movie, underlying the ending of the stable children. The Resistance will need to draw upon these nobodies to win, rather than rely on old super stars of Skywalkers, Solos and Organas.
A reveal of Kenobi or Skywalker heritage would only undercut one of the film's main themes and would have felt out of place. "The force needs to be for everybody, not just an elite few" "Uh yeah about that, I'm a Kenobi." Um no.
Good for you. I hated the film because it is a shit film. If you decorate shit or apply some deeper meaning to it, in the end itโs still shit, so here we are.
VTKajin ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 04:00:16 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I loved the film because it isn't a shit film. See how that works?
VTKajin ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 04:27:50 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Thanks for the congrats. I am really happy to like a good film.
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 00:23:23 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I was actually okay with the Luke/Kylo story of this movie. What I wasn't ok with was the weird misadventure that Finn takes accomplishing nothing and doing really nothing for the entire film. It would be way easier to explain the seed of love for the rebellion than some weird offshoot story. If anything the main jedi/sith story was the best part of this movie. And sorry but the space sorceress Leah should have just been dead instead of the weird force pull back into the ship. And the whole mutiny thing just didn't feel star wars, but I digress.
You listed some high-level points about the Rey/Kylo/Luke story arc.
Fine. Those are fine. A movie with those overall story points would be well received. Overall the Rey/Kylo/Luke movie was pretty good.
The issue is that the other half of The Last Jedi suffered from horrendous pacing, non-sensical b-plots, and universe breaking changes to the logic of Star Wars.
Things like Laura Dern, Casino planet, Poe Mutiny, Rose, Finn, Del Toro, the space chase, running out of gas...
Notice that you didn't mention any of them in your topic.
Those items were bad. They sunk what could have been a decent Star Wars movie. If you want to completely ignore them, like you did in this post, that's fine I guess.
Me, I guess I'll wait for the fan edit to see what could have been.
HaiImDad ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 04:57:19 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I agree. Comoletely. How do you feel about the possible finn, rose couple? I was really getting into the rey/finn thing. Through the whole movie, they are thinking of each other. Finn was gonna escape the resistance to find her.
I prefer Finn and Rey. Honestly I agreed worth OP but I low-key didn't like Rose's character.
1206 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 09:36:02 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Nope. This movie held a deep contempt for Star Wars. If you liked it then something is up.
yiggaman ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 18:22:12 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
People should remember that Anakin was a nobody as well. She is extremely powerful for no reason just like Anakin.
Artif3x_ ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 21:56:51 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Except that it's canon that Anakin was immaculately conceived by the Force itself and Rey's parents were "nobody"? How should they be considered remotely equivalent?
yiggaman ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 22:18:35 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
We donโt know whatโs gonna happen yet letโs wait for the end of the story to truly have criticism of whatโs going on
Artif3x_ ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 22:23:44 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Both of those points I've made are canon facts. I'm not sure what you mean to resolve by waiting to point them out?
yiggaman ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 22:40:05 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Iโve only watched the movies and read the Vader comics so excuse my lack of knowledge. Iโm just saying that for now Rey is a nobody just like Anakin was introduced as a nobody but maybe the story will reveal otherwise just as it did with Anakin even though with Anakin it was much sooner revealed
Artif3x_ ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 15:25:55 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Anakin wasn't introduced as a nobody. He was introduced as the embodiment of the Force's will; kinda the opposite of nobody.
yiggaman ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 16:02:55 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Negative
Artif3x_ ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 16:18:31 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Ok, so how many other immaculately conceived nobodies do we have to compare him to?
yiggaman ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 16:19:30 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
They didnโt know who his father was when he was introduced. They found out some scenes later but he was initially just a kid who was strong in the force
Artif3x_ ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 16:21:19 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
QUI-GON : The Force is unusally strong with him, that much is clear. Who
was his father?
SHMI : There was no father, that I know of...I carried him, I gave him
birth...I can't explain what happened. Can you help him?
yiggaman ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 16:21:53 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I don't know why you would think that prior to the sequel trilogy since that's literally the major plot point of all the first 6 movies and confirmed by Lucas himself.
Of course it doesn't make sense anymore now because Disney f*cked that up, but that was the case before.
Anyway my new headcanon is that the prophecy only repeats itself over time and that there isn't one but several chosen ones over the time (every time balance needs to be restored basically).
Rey is the new one for this time period (this matches with what Snoke says about her and also explains her incredible ability with the Force).
Unfortunately this is not official at all but that's the best I found from now
Artif3x_ ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 21:57:54 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Again, you're just making things up to make the story be whatever you want. Spare us.
yiggaman ยท -3 points ยท Posted at 18:39:50 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Anakin being the chosen one is kinda stupid because here we are and Ben Solo actually balances out the force with Snokes death. Thatโs just what happens when people make movies and have no idea it will still be relevant 30 years later. Rei is just powerful for no reason and thatโs ok with me. Iโm sure we will find out more in the next movie. To truly judge these characters you really have to wait for the next 10 movies, books, and comics to come out. Thatโs just how Star Wars is. Maybe Rei was created from a Jedi through the force like how Anakin came to be, then left with a couple of nobodies who sold her. We donโt know whatโs gonna happen yet lol. All you can do is wait for the trilogy to end. No point in getting worked up about an unfinished story.
Same as I said earlier concerning Anakin being the chosen one, You can't just cancel the canon of previous movies because the new ones aren't able to be consistent with it smh.
He definitely is. Disney fucked that up but that doesn't change the fact that Anakin is the chosen one
I appreciate the thread. I think I'm in the camp that I liked the movie, however I think I'm at 55%/45%. I liked it, came out of the theater in a positive mood, but I have a hard time reconciling a lot of the choices made with this film. Conversely I loved TFA - a fun reboot that was just a romp around the galaxy.
I agree, I don't need Reys parents to be somebody (though if her lineage was historically Sith that would have been cool probably, maybe Snoke recognizes a familiar aura and tempts her with the power of her ancestors, RIP opportunity). It feels like wasted screen time with the "whos muh parents" subplot, though. So much screen time was dedicated to "my parents", and then it's just revealed as "oh, they're nobody". Well, ok then, so you're like most force users. I'm fine with that, but on rewatch it makes those scenes in TFA and TLJ feel weaker to me since it feels like filler.
I think I also personally have a problem with Hux. Since all his accomplishments are off screen, we're just presented with the red-headed step child that is the play toy of whatever Sith is in charge. And, somehow, this guy became the Admiral of the now greatest navy in the galaxy. The First Order feels all the weaker by extension because of this. There is no Tarkin or Krennic, certainly no EU Thrawn. There is no imposing military official that carries a mutual respect with the Sith mystic in charge as with Tarkin and Vader, or the ruthless ambition that we see from Krennic that's actually on screen. We get Hux, who routinely embarrasses himself in front of the people who look to him to lead them to victory. I wished/hoped a strategist would have been introduced, who Hux is directly beneath, and we see Hux as the plaything still but we get his ambition as he tries (and comedically fails) to surpass the person above him. I also think it would have been a stronger point for Poe's character development to have defeat be served to him from the smiling face of somebody genuinely better than him, as opposed to the Holdo "I know General Organa places 100% trust in you but I'm not going to give you any information because I'm not going to give you any information" plot where he at times looks hysterical.
VTKajin ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 03:56:01 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
The thing about Rey that's been established in TLJ is that she's been searching for purpose and wanting to be special. That's why she was pining over her parents so much until now.
Nobuoz ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:20:02 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
You can like it you can have your headcanon with Rey or whatever character you want, just don't force it on other people please the last part of your post about rey and jedis is bs.
I definitely don't entirely disagree with you on this. Everyone has their own reasons for liking or not liking something. I did love the movie, but it definitely had some glaring flaws, not just coming from me as a fan of Star Wars, but from a general storytelling perspective. Some of those sorry issues being the ones you mentioned.
Snoke: All through TFA, he is built up (seemingly intentionally) as this super mysterious, immensely powerful, and menacing villain. Everyone immediately started going nuts (a little overboard really) with theories and speculation on who this mysterious, super powerful leader of the First Order might be or where he came from. We waited two years for some kind of answers, just to watch him get thrown out Darth Maul style. Star Wars movies have a history of killing off big Villains prematurely. Considering he is responsible for so much in this new trilogy, we need some more answers on him. I get that they can't logically answer all of them in this movie and it fit in, and would be fine if they decide to do it in a book, but they should at least give us some backstory. Where did he come from? The First Order is a remnant of the Empire. Why did they just let this seemingly random person come waltzing in and take control, instead of a prior Imperial veteran? Where does he get all of his resources to run the First Order? What happened to his body? Why does he hate Luke so much in the first place? Too many questions unanswered.
I've already gone on kind of long, so I'll shorten this up. It just felt to me like J.J. set up a lot of stories and mysteries in TFA that Rian just wasn't interested in exploring. The Knights of Ren for instance. Also, how the frick did Maz get Luke's lightsaber? She just basically pulls a Destiny on us and with a"we don't have time, I'll tell you later" then we get nothing, which, admittedly, is more of an issue with TFA. They should have just taken a minute to answer that one right then. They have a lot of questions still to answer.
Also, I feel your arguments about Rey are a little flimsy. Her understanding of other languages could come from her living in a salvage yard among tons of other races, where she picks up other dialects. She doesn't mind trick the junker into giving her BB-8, she more so just points a knife at him and threatens him. She didn't use the Force to wake Finn up, she just shook him awake. The first time we really actually see her access the Force in the movie is in Maz's Castle when she finds the lightsaber, which is right after the First Order blows everything up, which plays right into Snoke's darkness rises, and light to meet it quote. That was such an evil act, the Force needed to amp up Rey's abilities to match and balance the evil. Don't get me won't, I absolutely love Rey as a character. Luke was pretty much the exact same, other than being the child of Anakin of course. Some Farmboy that displayed no real power or potential until he was stolen away on some crazy adventure by some old space wizard. Sounds a little like Rey, minus the old space wizard.
Sorry I went on so long. Point is, I do love the movie and don't really disagree with you at all. Like it or don't, for whatever reasons, I don't care. But to me, I could tell this movie and TFA were made by two different directors. It was blatantly obvious in some of the mistreatment of the story.
jcsatan ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:55:25 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Agreed on everything other than being fine if Rey was a Skywalker. I was of the camp that she was of Kenobi lineage, which I'm coming around to as being a bad idea. However, I would've been insanely upset if she was just Kylo's sibling/cousin.
My biggest thing about how he wrote Luke is that Rey is so heartbroken this entire film. She really needed someone to help her understand the force, understand and find out her lineage, understand this entire mess with Kylo among other things.
Rey was relying on him to help her and when Yoda finally helps Luke understand that itโs ok to fail and the Jedi canโt lose her, he never communicates that to Rey. I know Kylo got an apology from Luke but Rey also needed one just as much. He refused to help her. I felt like most of the movie this amazing woman is in tears just seeking anyone to talk too about the force, Kylo and his stuff and everything thatโs going on.
Luke should have done more and I donโt think a Lucas Luke (if there is such a thing) would have done something like that.
Iโm also thinking heโs going to right a lot of these wrongs in episode 9. I hope.
It's well established kylo was subservient to snoke, as vader was to the emperor. The question both had were "why did they choose to?" And with vader they go over it. And in the originals the emperor didn't even exist until empire, vader seemed to be the big bad
If you hated the humor, that's fine too, but I don't understand why everyone was fine with it for 8 other movies.
That's because it didn't exist like this in the other movies. There was humor, but each movie took itself seriously (with the possible exception of Rogue One). These modern jokes feel out of place in the Star Wars universe, and I absolutely hate that.
I donโt believe that Rey is nobody. I think that Kylo was breaking her down and making her feel alone and abandoned so that she would find an identity in joining him.
Think about it, using the force (especially the light side of the force) is all about being able to calm your mind. Where better to calm your mind then the middle of the desert with no one around for miles?
All great points OP. My issue with TLJ is the horrible side plot for Rose and Finn. They are both great characters, but everything happening on the casino planet was really reminiscent of Episode 1, and was a pure waste of screen time - time that could have been used to pace what felt like a rushed ending.
I just can't understand how someone thought that was a good idea. Poe's "blow it up" disobedience was already established, and they could have cooked up the transports away/light speed into the star destroyers right away and gotten on with much more interesting plot - the slow slug of the rebel ships being chased was just dumb.
That extra time could have been used to slow down Rey-Luke training, give Luke and Leia more time, or allowed for a battle inside the base on the salt planet before Rey saves them in a much more climatic ending.
I liked 80% of the movie, but that casino planet was the worst thing I've seen since Jar Jar.
flobo09 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 07:36:47 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
The thing is, the 6 previous movies gave us a complete story.
The books / EU expanded on the movies but you didn't need them. You had a complete basic story with the 6 movies.
There wasn't one character or event where you thought "where the hell did that / he comes from ?"
With episodes 7-9, it's no longer the case.
No political context given for episode 7, no backstory for snoke.
Meaning the story is totally incomplete without books.
And i can't accept that.
I will read the book, but that should not be necessary.
This is is reason i really dislike the way the movie was made.
(I also totally disagree with the way they handled Luke, Ray & the Jedi ghosts and think it's totally against established canon but that's a totally different thing and more pov).
Why it mattered for me (and I hope this might explain why some people are so torn about this) is because I usually need some information and backstory for characters to matter. Since I know absolutely nothing about Snoke, I never really cared about the guy and therefore he didn't feel menacing. Which meant that the whole story lacked tension.
I get what the movie TRIED to say. But you need your audience to connect with the characters in order for the audience to root for them, to cheer for them, to feel sympathy for them. That doesn't work when you don't know enough about the characters, because then, they're only names with a face.
Who was Snoke and why should I care about him? Seems he's just some old dude sitting on a pedestal. How powerful is he really? What are his goals? Why did he chose Kylo and how did he find him? I know almost nothing about that, which means that the whole "Kylo turned dark" storyline feels superficial to me. And therefore, the whole big story point with him vs. Rey had no weight for me. Which made the movie boring because I never cared about the central point in the first place.
I don't want to harp on you and I definitely agree that I should let you love the movie, that's fine. But I'd like to shed some light as to why all those missing details aren't just minor plot holes, they are VITAL for some of us to actually get invested in the story. It's what all those big series like Breaking Bad, The Sopranos, The Wire et al. have been doing for the past 20 years. And it's what I've become to expect from good storytelling on the screen. And yes, you can do this in a movie. You don't need to spend 2 hours introducing a character. But you need to give us something to make us care about them.
I didn't like the movie, but not because of any of the decisions that you mentioned. I hate the fact that the entire movie is based around the idea that the First Order and Resistance ships move at exactly the same speed for 16 hours. That is just absurdly lazy writing. Also, Finn and Rose's mission added absolutely nothing to the plot, other than to have Benicio Del Toro in the movie. The twists about Snoke, Luke, and Rey's parents are fine and welcome, but such lazy writing is really disappointing to see in such a high caliber film.
With the humour it has been decent in the past 7 films (including TFA), the humour with those films was more subtle and normal compared to TLJ where they went out of their way to include it. There were much more โgagsโ which did not fit the movie.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 10:55:44 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
If Rey was using the force her whole life then why was there an awakening?
Disagree about the comedy. I think the reason people disliked the jokes was that they were too contemporary or undercut an otherwise emotional or poignant moment. I didn't find it too distracting but I noticed the difference
This is a fantastic post and perfectly addresses some of the common critiques. I wish it also included an explanation for why we needed to spend so much time in Canto Bight...
I didn't mind Canto Bight the second time because I wasn't so worried on getting on with the main story. It is good character development for Finn and gives you a reason to care about Rose.
It was shocking coming home at 1:00 AM on Friday and reading the reactions, but I guess that's going to be how it goes.
There was no way Rian Johnson was going to make everyone happy, so he made the best movie he could. I appreciate that. I'm just glad I'm one of the people who liked it.
Huh...It was probably my favorite Star Wars movie yet.
Everything was executed perfectly! Well, all except Leia flying through space..kinda weird. But even that was cool, we finally got to see undoubtedly that she is indeed Anakin's offspring, too, not just a badass princess/general.
Some people are determined to hate stuff that other people like. That's the rub.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 21:55:24 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Rey and Kylo are sensitives chosen by what Qui-Gon called "The Living Force". Back in the day there were tons and tons of force sensitives spread throughout the galaxy and even then The Force chose to create Anakin. By the age of 10 he was good at literally everything he did because he was assisted by The Force. Rey NEEDS to be able to confront Kylo. The Force demands balance and if Rey wasn't able to keep up with Kylo then it wouldn't achieve that.
The Star Wars movies never really had bad villains...until now.
Snoke is the worst villain by far. Coming into TLJ, he had so much potential and he ends up dying like an idiot.
VTKajin ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 03:51:23 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
That's the problem. He's not the villain, you were just led to believe he was.
Alyxra ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 00:22:26 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
The reason her being a nobody annoys me is because she's just as powerful as Kylo. Kylo is ONLY that powerful because he's Anakin Skywalker's bloodline who was LITERALLY conceived by the force.
You can be a powerful nobody, but you can't be on the level of the Force Jesus bloodline unless you've got years and years of experience over him.
Simply put, if you aren't from a super powerful Force Jesus bloodline created by the Force, you shouldn't be as powerful as one (unless you have fcking 900 years of experience like Yoda)
abrknl ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 01:20:13 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I'm pretty sure that whatever issues I had with TLJ can be fixed with the fan edit I intend to do, I felt it went on for 30 minutes too long anyways. Every issue except for one: not enough Rey. The only real problems I had were with Canto Bight and the kid at the end.
"The Jedi were celibate. They didn't pass on their connection to the Force to their kids. Every Jedi that existed was just born that way without explanation, but the Jedi were dedicated to finding them and training them. Had Rey been born 100 years sooner The Jedi would have found Rey as a toddler and trained her and we would not be having this discussion."
It wasnโt a good movie. Whether you liked it or not is a different story. It kept building up and then deflating without proper climax. Literally nothing happened. Nothing has changed from the end of TFA except that Snoke is dead, which doesnโt matter cause Kylo is now Supreme Leader. Rey better be manifested by the Force or else most of the movie content from all 7 other movies was rendered worthless
VTKajin ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 03:52:42 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Letโs see. We found out Vader is Anakin, first of all. Thatโs a huge one. But youโre not really looking for examples, are you? That was a rhetorical question, right? One designed to make a point without all that pesky effort of supporting your point.
VTKajin ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 04:29:32 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
No, I am looking for examples, so I can tell you what happened in TLJ and how that compares to what happened in ESB, rendering your criticism moot.
We found out Rey is actually just no one and Kylo has become the supreme leader of the First Order. That's two huge examples.
mlozano88 ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 21:27:26 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Regarding Rey's parents: that makes so much sense. People are disappointed JUST LIKE REY IS. Rian you freaking genius. He made us feel what Rey feels. Disappointed in Luke and disappointed in the truth about her parents.
Drajel ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 01:30:56 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I love your explanations here. I personally loved the movie. I just wanted to say one thing. The Jedi are by no means celibate. Sex is fine for the Jedi order. Attachments are not. So sex good, love bad. It's weird but whatever.
For some reason people love to be cynical, it almost as if they want to hate ep8. I'm with you- most SW films are very fun and enjoyable movies to watch, and I hate that people have to try and dissect them and ruin the movies for themselves and other people.
That's not what I said. I'm saying people are being cynical because they pick out tiny inconsequential details they don't like and complain about them constantly, like "the terrible jokes ruin the movie" unimportant stuff like that. If you complain constantly about tiny stuff like that then you are just trying to hate the movie.
Agreed. Listen, I'm no conspiracy theorist, but it has to be almost a fact that Disney has internet support from some sort of apparatus. Not saying OP is one. But something is fucked up with the force here.
The context of the Sequel Trilogy was that the Emperor was killed 30 years ago. Then The Force Awakens starts up and there's an Empire and an Emperor again and they're fighting a scrappy band of Rebels. Without a single moment of explanation in two movies.
[deleted] ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 08:42:54 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
a new hope was different
it was lucas first attempt to please the people who followed the books
[deleted] ยท -3 points ยท Posted at 03:10:24 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I actually didn't like the swearing. I felt that saying damn, hell, and even God speed should not have been in. This is a completely different universe and I don't believe of Earth's religions should be brought up.
To be fair, Rotten Tomatoes loved this movie. It's sitting at 93%. It's the nerds who brigaded it and took it down. Those of us who loved it can't be bothered to make an account and review it there.
shivering ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 01:21:37 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
You're so brave!
Ziaki ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 04:53:28 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
My only issue with Rey's parentage is that we wasted two years theorizing and getting hype.
Saved comment
PirateX84 ยท 1336 points ยท Posted at 15:39:47 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
It is kinda funny how everyone was hoping for more information on Snoke, but TLJ is like "Tough shit, here's Luke Skywalker drinking fresh milk from a space-ocean-cow-giraffe."
LateDentArthurDent42 ยท 367 points ยท Posted at 16:13:13 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I expect Disney to sell bottles of that stuff by new years
๐๏ธ tyrannustyrannus ยท 348 points ยท Posted at 16:28:27 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I can't wait to drink it and give someone a smug look as it dribbles down my beard
_StanleyYelnats ยท 222 points ยท Posted at 16:41:51 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I saw the movie last night and the screen kept freezing (got a free voucher tho) and the whole theater cracked up when it froze on his goofy milk covered face
lame_corprus ยท 70 points ยท Posted at 20:21:48 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Holy shit this is funny
Iamhighlife ยท 197 points ยท Posted at 19:43:48 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
The headcanon that my friends and I have is that the milk scene is the first and only time Luke actually did that. He just wanted to get rid of Rey that badly.
thespeedster11 ยท 213 points ยท Posted at 22:28:24 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I saw somebody here describe it as Luke thinking to himself "what would that little green shit yoda have done when I first met him on dagobah? How about I squeeze this crusty alien tit and make direct eye contact while I drink its milk. Perfect. Just like I was trained."
NothappyJane ยท 97 points ยท Posted at 00:42:34 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Trolling is 100% one of the qualifications of a jedi master.
Ros96 ยท 19 points ยท Posted at 02:59:31 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
That's why they regarded me as crazy old Ben the wizard!
pummkineater ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 11:52:12 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
....... From a certain point of view
WalkwayElectronics ยท 65 points ยท Posted at 20:44:40 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
You can take the boy outta the farm, but you can't take the farm outta the boy!
cosmicandshit ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 06:56:59 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
This comment totally made me okay with that scene now. He's from a fucking farm like how did I forget this
Neutronium95 ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 03:01:12 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I initially thought that it revealed the biggest secret in the series. Where does blue milk come from?
Illidan1943 ยท 59 points ยท Posted at 19:06:12 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I want to milk it myself in Disneyworld
๐๏ธ tyrannustyrannus ยท 51 points ยท Posted at 19:10:59 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
oh man is there a suggestion box for the new Star Wars land?
jamntoast3 ยท 23 points ยท Posted at 21:11:19 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
"don't squirt your parents, kids!"
[deleted] ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 00:51:50 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
as someone who owns stock in Disney, I can't wait that
smellsliketeenferret ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:29:41 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Just a shame it wasn't blue really...
trkoiz ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 03:52:25 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Let's face it we'd all buy it. Like when Bethesda put nuka-cola in targets for a week, that shit ran out in a day
NavyBuck ยท 29 points ยท Posted at 22:04:20 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Interesting, I saw it as more of a space-ocean-manatee-walrus
ExplorerIV ยท 11 points ยท Posted at 23:37:17 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Iโm in the same boat just along for the ride, no matter what I enjoy it, but for people that do care about smoke, are you damn mind readers and can see into the future?? How do you know in the next movie they wonโt touch on it, you donโt, I get that thereโs unanswered questions, I want to know Things too, but wait to make your assumptions that theyโll never be answered once the trilogy is over, please and thank you
ForgetfulFunction41 ยท 19 points ยท Posted at 04:54:42 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I think, respectfully, you might be missing the brunt of the criticism (both of the way they chose to play that and the film in general). It's not that we need every element in the movie explained, or that the movie has to match preformulated 'fan theories' or notions of how things should play out (and the situation is therefore not really rescuable by IX, even if its Snoke Backstory: the Movie).
I'll start from a distance. Like many of us, when I first saw TFA I was disappointed by how it was basically a rehash of ANH and of the original trilogy in general, but I got over this partially by telling myself that Kathleen and JJ had some tricks up their sleeves and future installments would take the series in creative, exciting directions which would justify extending the saga past episode 6. I thought Snoke's character would be a great way to do just that -- here's a major, awesomely designed, powerful character shrouded in complete mystery, with all avenues open, endless possibilies. I was sure that the direction they'd take Snoke would set apart the First Order from the Empire, the new Dark Side from the Sith, the new plot lines and dilemmas from the old, and give the new trilogy some much needed creative raison d'etre. I didn't have a fan theory about Snoke (though I did have a 'this is what I'd do,' like I think we all did), and I wasn't married to the idea that Snoke had to be how the new films distinguished themselves from the old -- but it did seem like the biggest opportunity. And this approach has strong antecedents in serialized mediums like comic books, where the heros stay largely unchanged from story to story, but a well realized and varied cast of villains keeps the whole endeavor fresh and interesting.
It didn't happen: not from Snoke, and not from anywhere else. Sure, the movie was not a rehash of TESB, but it was largely just variations on the same old themes, permutations of the same small bag of ideas. The First Order is just the Empire again. The Resistance is just the Rebels again. The central conflicts are all conflicts we've seen before, or minor riffs thereof. Luke isn't Yoda or Obi-Wan, but he largely develops along the same lines. Kylo isn't Darth Vader or AOTC/ROTS Anakin, but he also largely develops along the same lines. Rey and Kylo's relationship isn't a carbon copy of Luke and Vader's, but its not exactly at a great distance from that, either. And yes, some elements are new (Poe's character arc, for instance) but these feel tangential and are more-or-less confined to the less integral subplots.
Not that I'm trashing TLJ: I mostly really enjoyed it, it was fun and action packed and tense and emotional. But throughout all the sound and the fury, and the cheering crowds and the roar of starship engines, there was an ever-present and unmistakable screech of the creative bucket dragging across the bucket of the proverbial well. Rian's an exceptional person to have at the wheel and he gives it his all, but there's no disguising that creatively this series is running on empty. Snoke's non-reveal reveal, to me and perhaps to many fans though I couldn't say, is where this was most obvious and most distressing. To put it another way: if the Snoke reveal indicates the caliber of Kathleen Kennedy's hand before they announced the release dates (!) of the still-unwritten trilogy, and I'd argue that it does, then they should have spent more time writing and plotting the damn things.
ExplorerIV ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 04:56:04 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Holy cow, thanks for taking the time for replying with a thought out response but Iโll have to read it after work, give me a couple hours to respond :)
reehdus ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 09:57:39 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
But wouldn't you just say Snoke isn't exactly a carbon copy of the Emperor but he follows the same mould?
ForgetfulFunction41 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:52:34 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
If he followed the same mold, sure, but I was expecting him not to. This is more or less the point.
Let me get at this another way: I think when JJ and Kathleen told Rian Johnson that they were bluffing with Snoke and had no idea what to do with the character, and that his presence in TFA wasn't part of some clever set-up but rather caused by JJ just not being able to think up anything else, Rian made the right decision to kill him off like he did. The problem is that they never should have put Rian in that position in the first place. And its not just Snoke (even though he's the most obvious example), it's all over the film.
reehdus ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 03:17:07 on December 21, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I agree. Though I have no problem with removing Snoke and Phasma and limiting Maz's screentime, it looked like they were adding characters for the sake of symmetry with the old trilogy. Even Poe, who was actually supposed to die in TFA but they kept on due to the actor's performance, bloating the cast to much larger. Couple this with the existing OT members, how do you manage so many stories?
ExplorerIV ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 08:52:54 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I definitely see your point, Iโd like to think I can see and agree with both sides to an extent, Iโm just more of a passive movie goer and I like to just enjoy things for what they are, but you seem more articulate and well thought out with your thoughts on the film than most youโd have to admit that.
Acespear ยท 11 points ยท Posted at 03:45:23 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
To be fair TFA itself never tries to create the mystery. No character ponders who this Snoke person is. I think fans have been trained by Marvel that everything ties to everything else, the dude with a beat up face HAS to be someone we know. I am happy we didnโt get a Darth Krayt situation but there is always the EU. I do look forward to the Canto Blight anthology explaining the backstory of every person in the casino though.
Nerdybeast ยท 9 points ยท Posted at 05:59:19 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I don't think everyone was necessarily disappointed that Snoke didn't turn out to be someone we know, but rather that we never found out ANYTHING about him. We know all about Anakin Skywalker's descent into darkness and his return, but we have no idea how Snoke convinced Kylo Ren to turn to the dark side. We don't know how the First Order came about under the nose of the New Republic, and we don't know how Snoke is so powerful. I think they could have explained that satisfactorily in just a couple minutes if they really wanted to.
As for Canto Bight, I will be interested to read up on all those backstories. I was a bit disappointed that we didn't see any familiar aliens though. Not necessarily the same people, but we didn't see any species we'd seen before to indicate "Hey, this is the same universe as the rest of Star Wars!" The creators of the background characters, especially in the prequels, put in tons of work to create cool, interesting characters, and they just ignored all of those.
hanklea ยท 12 points ยท Posted at 06:59:05 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
We didnโt find out the details about Anakinโs fall to the dark side and how the Emperor rose to power until we got the prequels though. In the OT they never felt like they needed to explain it because THAT story was about Luke being the primary protagonist and it being his story. They filled in the gaps later.
And yeah sure Iโd love to know more about Snoke and how he seduced Kylo Ren to the dark side. I think it would be really interesting and add to the world. But for the purpose of this particular story those details arenโt important. Interesting? Yep. Relevant? Maybe. Important to the story of Rey as the primary protagonist of the series and her story? Not so much. These are details that can be filled in later if there is a demand.
Nerdybeast ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 07:30:04 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
You make good points. As to your last point, it was very clear there was demand though. Immediately after TFA, a lot of people were asking about Snoke and his background. That could have warranted a minute or so of background. Maybe when Luke's describing why he confronted Kylo Ren, for instance. I don't know when the best time would be. But they easily could have and should have explained it, since there clearly was demand for it.
hanklea ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 07:37:41 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I donโt disagree with you... they could easily have edited out some of the casino stuff for this. And I am hoping that they might do this in the next film but if they donโt I understand why. You have to draw a line and edit stuff out somewhere or else you start having GRR Martin levels of superfluous backstory fluff in there. I guess in TLJ they decided that Finn and Poeโs character arcs were more important to the overarching storyline than filling in the Snoke/Kylo backstory. Letโs hope that pays off.
The_Mighty_Tachikoma ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 07:42:22 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
This. Specifically:
People seem to be forgetting that we didn't know jack shit about anything from the OT. All the background badassery and building-up of characters came from books, comics, and other media including the prequels later.
Acespear ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 07:55:26 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Iโd have to watch again but I donโt think we know anything about the emperor. Not even his name. He is just the emperor. We find his connection to Vader but other than that there isnโt much. That is about on par with Snoke.
The_Mighty_Tachikoma ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 08:03:02 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
You're right. If you watch the OT by themselves, remove all knowledge that you know from the decades of world building and try to watch only those movies, we really didn't know much of anything.
The Emperor was just the Emperor. He was the big bad guy. Hell, we didn't even know he had force powers until ROTJ, iirc. We just knew he was somehow powerful and that Vader served him.
TheCrudeDude ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 17:36:25 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I really don't think anybody is forgetting that. That was also a time where we knew nothing of this story. We also knew those were episodes 4,5,6 and they provided enough context to understand what had happened.
Now that we have 40 years of story, and now after the first 8 chapters, we really know nothing of the guy that facilitated the exile, and ultimate death of Luke Skywalker.
Mysterious Big Bad worked back then because we got thrown into this space story. We understood each characters role in that world. With years of context, the same just feels off to me if we view this as a 9 part story. Sure, we could get a bridge movie, or maybe JJ will expand on the plot lines he hinted towards in VII.
Having complex and well structured protagonists is important to me. Kylo Ren is an amazing villain, and more context about his fall would only add to that. I think there was enough time in this film to at least delve into how Snoke came into power after ROTJ.
Acespear ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 08:01:53 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
The lack of familiar aliens was annoying to me too. I just wanted to see an Ithorian or some other alien that looked familiar. I accept bigger galaxy but just a few thrown in would be nice. I didnโt memorize all these species names and appearances for nothing!
Cuban_Beefcake ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 03:46:33 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I kinda assumed that was a moof. Making Luke a moof milker lol.
Solidsnakemode ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 05:18:01 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
You just don't become an evil force user with an extreme hatred for the Jedi out of nowhere tho but fuck me for wanting more.
guareber ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 07:41:27 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I truly don't know why we expected it. JJ does this shit on every single project he's involved in. Alias, Lost, Super8, Fringe, etc etc etc.
I truly liked the movie (even if I have several issues with it) but I'm seriously worried for EP9 with JJ as a one man band.
AnalCreampies4Jesus ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 01:10:53 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I was the only one in the theaters laughing at that part. That fat thing, just sitting spread out, not giving a fuck.
OxfordWhiteS197 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 04:51:36 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
He shoulda sucked on the nipples instead of squeezin em
JarrettTheGuy ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 05:08:09 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Mmmm, warm
SlottedPig1 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 06:33:21 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Luke is a farm boy after all.
_Mellex_ ยท -18 points ยท Posted at 16:10:43 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
They didn't want to add even 30 seconds of backstory because it would bog down the scenes. Laughable, really.
๐๏ธ tyrannustyrannus ยท 47 points ยท Posted at 16:17:17 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
this is the stuff I'm talking about
[deleted] ยท 40 points ยท Posted at 18:05:55 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
๐๏ธ tyrannustyrannus ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 18:17:10 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
saying I disagree with an opinion isn't dismissive.
saying your opinion is wrong, or stupid, or that you are in denial is dismissive.
[deleted] ยท 14 points ยท Posted at 18:23:26 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
[deleted] ยท 17 points ยท Posted at 18:26:38 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
[removed]
never_fucking_giveup ยท 12 points ยท Posted at 19:15:44 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Why are you crying that other people disliked the movie you liked? I personally thought it was terrible. I'm glad someone enjoyed it. This entire thread is just you crying
_Mellex_ ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 21:21:18 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
It's so brave to like a film ๐
[deleted] ยท 10 points ยท Posted at 18:28:49 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
[deleted] ยท 12 points ยท Posted at 19:09:29 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Tensions are running high. Next week or even next month I think we will see less finger pointing and more real discussion. I
ObliviousFriend ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 19:12:25 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Don't count on it.
The_BromanEmpire ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 16:45:45 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Just wait it out. Hate doesn't last as long as love and passion, as cheesy as that sounds. These guys will burn out eventually.
Gileriodekel ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 18:54:08 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
How long did it take for people to stop hating the prequels?
tinyturtletricycle ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 19:20:42 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I actually thought I liked 2 and 3 OK, but our family rewatched them to prepare to TLJ and I actually like them less now.
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 19:10:06 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
For me about 10 years. I still canโt watch the first half of Phantom Menace but I enjoy the fan cuts on YouTube.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 04:00:49 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
VTKajin ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 04:08:31 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Huh? TLJ didn't say anything the fans haven't been saying for a while. Which is why I really liked that line in TLJ.
๐๏ธ tyrannustyrannus ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 18:55:14 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I still hate them but I don't brigade every post where someone says they do
Gileriodekel ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 18:59:35 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
So the answer to /u/The_BromanEmpire statement is that hate may last as long as love and passion.
Regardless, TLJ movie came out less than a week ago. People are still expressing and developing opinions about it.
Whenever I talk to people about the prequels IRL, I never fail to get told that they're shit.
_Mellex_ ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 21:20:15 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I'm not allowed to think something is laughable? Okie dokie then.
bobbyjs1984 ยท -8 points ยท Posted at 20:28:53 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
The milk scene was the most pointless of the franchise
webu ยท 17 points ยท Posted at 20:38:04 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
The Max Rebo Band would like a word with you.
Also that scene shows us that Luke has been living off of the land & is perfectly content to continue doing so. It shows us that he wants to be on that island so much that he's willing to drink that shit.
Flamma_Man ยท 10 points ยท Posted at 22:11:00 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I actually thought it was a simple way of instantly shattering Rey's REALLY high perception of "Master" Luke. If you watch her expressions leading up to that, she's really curious what Master Luke is doing with these creatures.
Is this some Jedi thing? Wait, what is he doing?
Oh. Oh no.
TheKomuso ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 00:40:13 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
OP is all about that, gotta accept that soy boys are into this direction.
Holovoid ยท 539 points ยท Posted at 22:33:24 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Its funny you bring up Darth Plagueis. In a 3-minute monologue by Palpatine, we learned more about this dude who never appears on screen than we did about Snoke in 2 movies.
yoshi570 ยท 356 points ยท Posted at 23:55:14 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Ironic.
chrt ยท 99 points ยท Posted at 04:43:27 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
It's not a story the writers would tell you.
Superfan234 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 13:38:40 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Maybe in the EU...
Tyrathius ยท 45 points ยท Posted at 05:50:21 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
He could develop other characters, but not himself.
Gholer ยท 14 points ยท Posted at 01:21:59 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Alanis Morissette style ironic.
Defguru ยท 254 points ยท Posted at 01:03:16 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
"Have you ever heard the story of Snoke the Wrinkly?
"No."
"I thought not. It's not a story Rian Johnson would tell you."
I_DONT_HAV_H1N1 ยท 33 points ยท Posted at 05:11:41 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Itโs a JJ legend...
StarBarf ยท 47 points ยท Posted at 03:40:22 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Ignore the prequel trilogy for a second. Would you have been upset at the end of ROTJ that you didn't know barely anything about The Emperor before he died?
GoodGrades ยท 90 points ยท Posted at 05:14:14 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
All we need to know about the Emperor in the OT is that he's the big baddie. Nothing else is essential because it's the introduction to the universe.
The ST takes place 30 years after the Rebels defeated the Empire, now suddenly there's a new Emperor very similar to the old one. Naturally, folks are going to have basic questions about this new Emperor like: "Where did he come from? How did he gain so much power? Luke, Han, and Leia appear to know quite a bit about him, so why were they unable to stop him over the past 30 years?"
The film's unwillingness to even approach tackling these questions is confusing, because it makes it seem like our heroes just sat on their asses and did nothing for 30 years while a new Empire arose from under them.
RomanovaRoulette ยท 9 points ยท Posted at 06:24:40 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Well, Luke and Han did kind of sit on their asses and do nothing. Luke vanished after what happened with Ben and tried to renounce the Jedi ways. Han split from Leia after what happened with Ben and returned to being a rogue and smuggler. It seems like Leia is the only one who kept trying to be a leader and a hero and she was too busy with the New Republic to try and go after this shady Snoke dude. Where would she even begin?
Jakerod_The_Wolf ยท 9 points ยท Posted at 07:11:53 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
And all that happens because of snoke who we know nothing about or how he accomplished it. How do they even know who he is is one of my questions?
RomanovaRoulette ยท -8 points ยท Posted at 07:16:13 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
They heard of him through other people? Why is this such a difficult concept to understand or believe in? My god, yโall need a play by play of the thirty years in between the original trilogy and this trilogy? Yโall need every detail on Snokeโs rise and exactly how Leia and Han found out years ago? What a bloody waste of screentime that would be, when there are more current pressing matters.
charkid3 ยท 13 points ยท Posted at 07:47:08 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
yeah, it was really important to go ransack a casino
RomanovaRoulette ยท -4 points ยท Posted at 07:50:29 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
That casino was where they found Benicio Del Lockpicker, who is the ENTIRE REASON the First Order was able to find out the Resistanceโs plans, which directly led to Holdo speedforce-ing into Snokeโs ship, which is what allowed Rey to escape and Finn and Rose to escape as well. Also, Canto Bight showed us those poor children who, at the end, showed the important message that there are downtrodden people who support the Resistance (meaning that the flame burns on) and that there are other Force users out there who could be trained to be Jedi some day. And also, Benicio Del Lockpicker is most certainly gonna show up again, so they had to introduce him as well.
charkid3 ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 18:22:06 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Any of the other ships, you know those ships that ran out of fuel and fell behind and just got blown up? They could have turned around and speed forced into Snoke's ship. What is your argument against this? Finn and Rose wouldn't have even had to be on their ship if not for the Casino scene. Rey could have found countless other ways to escape. The children part is too shoe horned in but sure, let's go with that this is important to the movie. Could have chosen any other way to introduce them into the movie.
Jakerod_The_Wolf ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 15:26:36 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
And none of that required ran sacking the casino.
ripplewho ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 10:25:20 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Then honestly the characters should be even more curious about Snoke's background than we are. Luke watches the last of the Sith be destroyed and then this guy shows up and corrupts his pupil and then Luke doesn't even care to look into where he came from? For all we know there's a whole planet of Snokes waiting in the wings to take over the galaxy.
Surely you can see why discovering the source of Snoke's power/knowledge is a huge point of interest for people.
Holovoid ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:56:23 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I know when I go around corrupting Jedi in training that's ALL I talk about at the bar that night.
RomanovaRoulette ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 23:06:22 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Youโre right, Snoke has absolutely NO followers who could potentially let it slip about him. And bad guys never intentionally want their reputation to spread so that people may fear them or want to join them. Bad guys care nothing about fame or power! How very silly of me to forget that Snoke was a one-man show who absolutely wanted to keep his plans to take over the galaxy 100% a complete secret!
Jakerod_The_Wolf ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 15:22:01 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I would love a trilogy that takes place between RotJ and TFA. Matter of fact that's what I wanted but instead I got ANH 2.0 and ESB -2.0. The Battle of Jakku looks way more interesting than anything that happens in either movie. The Rise of the New Republic interestinf. Instead we got you know that thing that your heroes fought for in the OT? That's gone now and you don't get to see it. Oh and we're resetting everything to go.back to the rebellion vs empire 2.0. We xould have done any number od unique things but no we're going to make the same conflict. And we're not even going to tell you about how the evil guy came to power.
Trogdor_a_Burninator ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 09:28:12 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
It means the Republic did but not our heroes. Leia was fighting them all along.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 10:59:30 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
We know that he is bad though. We know that grown men shit themselves upon learning that he's dropping by for a visit. We know that a brigade sized element of soldiers were probably standing around for five hours just to have a formation for his shuttle landing.
Zre6iT ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 06:45:02 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
This ^
The_True_Zephos ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 07:42:05 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
The aftermath novels help explain the gap.
GoodGrades ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 13:43:29 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
That may be true, but it's incredibly frustrating that will never know basic answers about this new universe unless we read a bunch of supplemental materials. That's a failure of worldbuilding. Supplemental material should enhance our understanding of the universe, not explain essential facts we had no way of knowing before.
[deleted] ยท 21 points ยท Posted at 06:16:21 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
Sattorin ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 12:23:04 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
The first thing you hear about The Emperor is that he has dissolved the Senate, erasing the last vestige of the Old Republic and putting full control in the hands of the territorial governors.
From that single line it's clear that he assumed power in some kind of galactic republic and has just finished consolidating his power.
They didn't have to have that line in ANH. It didn't impact the Luke/Vader plot in any way. But god damn it, it was world-building backstory to help you understand why the universe is the way that it is. And both TFA and TLJ are like "nah, just try not to think about why things are the way they are".
kalenrb ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 15:57:24 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I couldn't put it better myself. A single line tells us everything we need to know because it is a simple, familiar setup. In history, democracies fall to tyranny all the time.
How a single subfaction of the crumbling empire was able to achieve a military might beyond that of the empire is counter intuitive. In TFA it seemed Snoke would be the key to that. But in the end they just ignored all of it.
comm_pope ยท 29 points ยท Posted at 04:14:37 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
At the end of ROTJ, we knew the Emperor was the head of the empire, evil, Vaderโs boss, and dead. At the end of TLJ, we know Snoke is the head of the First Order, evil, Kyloโs boss, and dead...
The_Funki_Tatoes ยท 61 points ยท Posted at 04:24:05 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
In episode IV, it is said that the senate has been dissolved and Palpatine now has complete control over the empire. Through that, we are told that the Empire didn't come to be through some revolution but through a democratic election - similar to how Hitler came to power.
Meanwhile, Snoke is some guy with a big fleet that destroys some planets and appears to have complete control over the galaxy.
arnathor ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 08:19:27 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
IIRC the name โPalpatineโ is never used in the OT.
Holovoid ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:58:06 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I believe it was first used in the novelization for ROTJ, correct.
Regardless, even that was more backstory than Snoke received.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 04:38:59 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
[removed]
GoodGrades ยท 25 points ยท Posted at 05:15:26 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
The opening line of Episode VIII is "The First Order reigns."
dudleymooresbooze ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 10:57:13 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Yep, that would do it.
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 07:19:58 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
[removed]
narwi ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 07:27:36 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
You just interpreted it to mean something that simply doesn't follow in plain English.
jerrycasto ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 07:32:38 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Okay: I interpreted the words that u/dudleymooresbooze typed above to mean that they are a fringe group in TFA, and through their successful assault now reign over the galaxy in TLJ.
Is that clearer?
awesomesauce88 ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 05:14:36 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
The opening crawl kind of implies it. As does the constant "we're all that's left" talk by the Resistance. If there's anyone in the Galaxy standing in Snoke's way, Rian and JJ did a good job of making sure we never heard about them.
Vinnys_Magic_Grits ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 14:02:30 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
JJ showed us the galactic government blowing up along with their pretty large fleet, but we got no background on it.
kalenrb ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 16:02:50 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
What you describe is exactly what I would expect for the ST, but that is not the case. It is clearly stated in the crawls. All the more reason why backstory is super important.
If the ST just started with a new republic flourishing and Luke training young Jedi in his academy we wouldn't need backstory because that is the natural progression you would expect after ROTJ. You want o start somewhere else? Fine. But give us an explanation!
Jakerod_The_Wolf ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 07:09:03 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
In addition to the other comments Rey also says that all the major systems will fall within weeks.
Blookies ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 01:17:18 on December 21, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Information is carried in extra-movie content. The First Order surprised the galaxy with the size of it's fleet immediately following the destruction of the New Republic and the fight on Takodana. The following days are spent traveling to and capturing major planets that are in disarray without their leadership.
ieataquacrayons ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 04:35:56 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Star Wars is a saga, we have a third movie in this trilogy left. Plus who knows what they will sprinkle in elsewhere(maybe we hear about snoke in the Han movie). Maybe we have a huge reveal thatโs being planned(or maybe not!). TLJ isnโt a stand alone movie where Rogue One could have been. I personally enjoyed the movie, like that a lot of things are unanswered and look forward to the next movie.
ClericalNinja ยท -2 points ยท Posted at 13:19:49 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Yeah but who cares what we learn about Snoke now.... he is cut in half. If we learn anything, it'll be in reaction to the confusion everyone has right now.
StarBarf ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 09:57:54 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
There are other ways to take complete control over a government. I feel like you're being influenced by the PT a little too much here. Hell, the whole point of the prequel trilogy was to provide the details of how he came to power because there aren't any in the OT. We could be dealing with something similar here, who knows? And as others have said, this is a saga, you can't expect all of the answers in this single chapter. More may come in IX in regards to Snoke. Look at all of the history and flashbacks we got in VIII. Nothing is to say that we won't delve deeper in to the rise of the First Order in IX in order to make it come full circle. The beauty of the OT to me is that when you finish watching one, it feels complete, but then you get excited about the unanswered questions they each leave behind and what's to come in the next installment.
cosmicandshit ยท -4 points ยท Posted at 06:59:41 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Snoke had to have come from the empire. The first order didn't pick up a random person to lead them. He rose from within the old empire. Other than that who cares about his story
Nerdybeast ยท 23 points ยท Posted at 06:04:49 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
That's a completely different situation. We aren't given any other background, so the Empire is the status quo, and it makes sense that there's an Emperor. He has wacky new Force powers, but that makes sense given that Vader kneels to him.
For the sequel trilogy, we know everything that preceded this, except the ~30 year gap between RotJ and TFA. We know that the Rebellion successfully destroyed the Empire, and they're interested in reinstating the Republic. Suddenly, some guy took over, killed the Republic, and established himself as ruler of the galaxy. He also somehow turned Ben Solo to the dark side, and we are given no information as to how that happened.
The_Mighty_Tachikoma ยท -5 points ยท Posted at 07:48:19 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
All we know is some dude declared himself Emperor, established the Empire, dissolved the senate and now rules the galaxy.
Obi-Wan tells Luke that Darth Vader killed Anakin, but not why or how and it's never actually explained in the OT at all.
Nerdybeast ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 08:10:49 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Pretending that the situation with the Star Wars universe is the same now as it was for the OT is a little weird. We can accept the Emperor as the status quo, because nothing else has happened in Star Wars before that. Now, we know a lot more about Star Wars and its timeline, and that leaves large questions about Snoke's origins and rise to power.
Yes, Obi-Wan doesn't tell Luke about the explicit details of Anakin's fall to the dark side. But we didn't know Anakin at all then. We know Kylo's parents (extensive details on them), and we know his Master well too. How he could fall to the dark side with those influences is unexplained and could use some explanation.
The_Mighty_Tachikoma ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 05:42:44 on December 21, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Luke never even passed his own jedi trials, how is he going to teach someone else how to do so?
Nerdybeast ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 06:32:53 on December 21, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
What? Are you sure you replied to the right comment?
The_Mighty_Tachikoma ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 09:18:19 on December 21, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I was responding to this part:
Nerdybeast ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 18:24:21 on December 21, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
But Luke being a bad teacher would just make Ben a subpar Jedi, not a darkside user. We don't know what brought him to the dark side. Luke's inability to teach may have made it EASIER for him to be tempted by the dark side, but we don't know what actually brought him there.
Sattorin ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 12:14:40 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
In ANH you learn that the Emperor has dissolved the Senate, erasing the last vestige of the Old Republic and putting the regional governors in control of their territories. That single line shows that the Emperor (somehow) took control of a republican government and has just finished fully consolidating his power.
And you already know that Darth Vader is the ultimate badass of the Universe from ESB, and then you have this scene at the start of RotJ where the commander in charge of the Death Star's construction meets Vader. The commander guy has no problem talking to a giant 8-foot black-clad half-robot death machine who kills officers that disappoint him... but he basically shits himself when he hears that The Emperor is coming.
And then he arrives at the second Death Star with the most badass tyrant king theme song in history, with hundreds of fighters flying just as a ceremonial display, and hundreds of troops at attention where he lands. And Vader, the toughest motherfucker around, kneels to await his arrival.
You didn't know a lot of facts about the Emperor at the end of RotJ, but you knew who the fuck he was.
I have no idea who Snoke was, how he came to power, or how his government operated, or how he was successful with a whiny brat for an apprentice and an incompetent buffoon as the head of the military.
Holovoid ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 23:00:20 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Or how he apparently is super powerful in the Dark Side.
PermaDerpFace ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 04:43:11 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Darth Plagueis? I haven't heard this story
Nerdybeast ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 06:05:40 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I thought not. It's not a story the Jedi would tell you.
The_Mighty_Tachikoma ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 07:43:30 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
We also never learned anything about Palpatine until the prequels(IF you're sticking purely to films as you seem to be).
JohnnyReeko ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 08:40:18 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
To be fair that was the fifth film that Palpatine was in and it was like 25 years after he was introduced.
fapmesideways ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 12:00:03 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
This comment is so true that it hurts.
Vinnys_Magic_Grits ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 13:24:21 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Yes, the constant exposition of the prequels is something to aspire to. /s
FishMcCray ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 04:09:15 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
You are using the hated prequels. Hated for too much shit going on and not enough focus to berrate the lack of backstory for snoke. The emperor was literally a hologram for 1 movie and sat on a chair for the other. The movie doesn't need to tell us everything only what's necessary
Jakerod_The_Wolf ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 07:18:43 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
IV tells us that he came to power democratically and has dissolved the rest of the government. We don't know how snoke got power which is important.
Holovoid ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:02:42 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I actually like parts of the prequels. I know they get a lot of shit but most of my complaints about it have to do with poor writing, direction, and contrivance.
I love the massive worldbuilding the prequels did.
That being said I also liked The Last Jedi...just disappointed that this big mysterious guy who just so happens to be powerful in the Dark Side of the Force somehow created a faction as powerful as the Galactic Empire out of the fractured remains of said empire was basically written off as "Yup he was a dude and now he's dead."
megamanxzero35 ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 02:29:25 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Maybe that just proves Snoke isnโt important to the story being told in this trilogy?
GoodGrades ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 05:16:10 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
This makes the story super disjointed from the OT then.
lukeetc3 ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 06:37:14 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
It's funny you bring up Palpatine, the guy we had no backstory on until an entire trilogy was made which everyone viciously criticized as being unnecessary backstory that didn't need to be told.
Jakerod_The_Wolf ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 07:17:18 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Because it didnt. The Empire was the status quo when we are introduced to the universe. Snoke wasn't. The status we left the universe in was that the emperor was dead but now suddenly some new guy is in charge who corrupted Ben Solo whixh leads to a ton of other stuff. It's rational that people want to know more about him.
[deleted] ยท -30 points ยท Posted at 23:58:19 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
But that film was boring AF and that scene shows how stupid Anakin is. He should OBVIOUSLY realize that itโs very clear that Palpatine is way too knowledgeable about the dark side of the force
bubbas111 ยท 14 points ยท Posted at 00:41:05 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Isn't that the exact scene that makes anakin realize that palpatine is too knowledgeable about the dark side of the force? Anakin is the one who snitched on palps to Windu. Anakin just thought he would be arrested as is the Jedi way.
BowieKingOfVampires ยท 15 points ยท Posted at 01:08:08 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I believe he figures it out in the scene directly after that when Palps is basically like "Jesus kid, I'm the Sith Lord. Go tell the Jedi. How the hell have you not figured this out, I've been taking about Sith Legends and my master teaching me about the force and lots of evil shit for weeks now."
etacarinae ยท 32 points ยท Posted at 01:01:45 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Revenge of the Sith was boring as fuck? What in the fuck is going on around here? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. It's easily the best episode of the prequels and that one scene is one of the best scenes from the prequels.
[deleted] ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 00:41:48 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
While I agree with you, maybe he did. Maybe he did and he liked that, or was conflicted by the realisation?
whats_a_hokie ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 02:44:33 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Make Anakin Great Again.
CheezStik ยท -4 points ยท Posted at 02:51:15 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
And yet, even with knowing his backstory, it doesn't really enrich the plot of that movie in any way. So there's that.
Nerdybeast ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 06:07:13 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
What? That story is literally what convinced Anakin to turn to the dark side. Plagueis had the power to create life and stop his loved ones from dying. Anakin wanted that power, so he turned to the dark side. That is essential to the plot.
CheezStik ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 06:33:30 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
You're describing information about a Force power, not the importance of an actual character to the story
Nerdybeast ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 06:40:26 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
The STORY of Plagueis is integral to the story. He doesn't actually show up in the movies, so how would his character be important?
It's like in Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows. There's the story of the three brothers who cheated death. Those characters don't matter at all, but the story is what the entire book revolves around. Saying it doesn't enrich the plot at all makes absolutely no sense.
Caiden019 ยท 291 points ยท Posted at 15:34:13 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
But that's not exclusive to Rey. Just about every force sensitive in the galaxy passively uses the force. They still need guidance in controlling it. Both Luke (space Jesus 2.0) and Anakin (the literal embodiment of the force) needed someone to guide them in controlling it. Even after Luke had been introduced to the force and began understanding what it was, it was still difficult for him to do even simple things like pull his lightsaber. Why doesn't Rey follow similar limitations?
xepa105 ยท 95 points ยท Posted at 20:54:03 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
She doesn't? She caused a rift in the rock their were standing in and then later literally cut a rock in half with her lightsaber because she couldn't control her powers. She was immediately pulled to the Dark side of the island because she can't control it. She got bamboozled by Kylo/Snoke through their force connection because she doesn't know how to control it/close it off.
She is a great fighter and pilot, but had never really used the force directly to her advantage unless it was to pull the lightsaber to her in TFA. Her lifting rocks to save the resistance was her first really powerful use of the Force. Before then she had duped one dumb stormtrooper and had resisted Kylo Ren's mind invasion, which wasn't really done consciously, she simply resisted it, without knowing it would work.
Caiden019 ยท 46 points ยท Posted at 21:00:57 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
We see her defeat Kylo's attempt to pull the saber out from the snow, we see her actively use mind trick on someone, and resist another users influence. Three things that has required some level of training for every Jedi we've seen.
xepa105 ยท 61 points ยท Posted at 21:10:08 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Like I said later in that same post, her defeating of the mind influence was not because she knew what she was doing specifically, she just resisted; Poe resisted too earlier in the movie, but since he's not strong in the force, it was useless for him. Also, the mind invasion thing was introduced in TFA, so it's not like we've seen it too much to know the ins and outs of it.
The lightsaber in the snow is also one where she was not doing it because she knew what the force was or whatever, it wasn't something controlled, just like all her uses of the Force in TFA.
I mean, Luke used the Force to guide two proton torpedoes into the opening of the Death Star without more than a speech about the force and half an hour of training from Obi-Wan, but somehow Luke's incredible affinity with the Force is never questioned the same way as Rey's is.
Jakerod_The_Wolf ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 07:28:29 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Luke doesn't use the force to guide them. He uses the force to know when to fire. Or at least that has always been my interpretation.
xepa105 ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 11:01:11 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Maybe so. Either way, it does feel like something beyond the scope of the "Force 101" lesson that he got from Obi-Wan in the Falcon.
Jakerod_The_Wolf ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 14:59:56 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I'm pretty sure using the force in that case is pretty much the same as trusting your judgement. He's a good marksman in a ship as pointed out by the womp rat story. It's just him trusting himself instead of relying on the computer. If the force was required to guide them in they never would have gone on the mission or at the very least never sent the other two runs first.
iCaliban13 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 18:14:51 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Mind Invasion is in the EU. I think it is called legends now. Jacen (Ben's eu counterpart, uses it)
Caiden019 ยท -6 points ยท Posted at 21:17:22 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Luke still had more introduction to the force and his sensitivity to it than Rey, he is the son of the embodiment of the force, he is canonically the most powerful force user to have ever lived, and he wasn't even going to try it until Obi-Wan pushed him to. Rey just saw someone do a mind trick and thought "That was cool. Guess I'll try" and it just works.
xepa105 ยท 23 points ยท Posted at 21:25:24 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Right, so Luke in ANH shows that training isn't all that necessary to use the force, not well, at least. Luke is obviously powerful in the force naturally, and was able to use it in ANH, but Rey is powerful too without knowing it. And again, it's not like she uses it at all until after Kylo tries to invade her mind, which is the point from then on where she begins trying to use it. It's not beyond reason that Kylo's attempt to break her mind made her feel the force more so than she ever had. Which she then used to trick a stormtrooper, and let's not act like that's incredibly difficult
๐๏ธ tyrannustyrannus ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 21:36:53 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Rey definitely uses the force a few times in TFA before she meets Kylo Ren.
xepa105 ยท 10 points ยท Posted at 21:41:49 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Yeah, I agree with that. The point is, she's not consciously using it. Much like how Luke isn't consciously using it when he's racing through beggar's canyon on his T-16. They are both incredibly attuned with the force without knowing it early in their lives.
Caiden019 ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 21:35:45 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
And Rey uses it pretty well for only a few hours worth of knowledge around it. Luke was aware he was a force sensitive for several years and he could barely pull a lightsaber to himself. Something Rey does against another force user.
We've only seen people at the level of at least a Jedi Knight use mind trick in the past which takes at least a decade of training for the average user.
[deleted] ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 06:08:05 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
To play devil's advocate, if you were just watching ANH for the first time and didn't know star wars at all, you wouldn't know he's the son of the literal embodiment of the force.
Caiden019 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 06:11:53 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Why does that matter? We know he is now. We have an established lore.
Jakerod_The_Wolf ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 07:28:51 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
She didn't even see anyone do it.
WildlyOnTopic ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 15:34:21 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
This installment is shitting on the idea of force blood. That's part of the point. It's a democratization of the force.
NRDL ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 01:06:41 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Let's not forget that her mind link in TFA with Kylo backfired on him, and SHE actually got information out of his head. That's the easiest possible justification for any specific competence with force powers, and the one I subscribe to.
maglen69 ยท 12 points ยท Posted at 23:03:33 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
That's more because she was swinging a lightsaber, badly I might add, than she was using her powers.
flipdark95 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 03:28:37 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Jedi use the force in combination with training to control their movements with a lightsaber.
RadioactiveIguanodon ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 21:24:44 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Regarding that rock-lifting. I'm not entirely convinced it really was Rey who did it. She seemed surprised when the rocks suddenly moved, and it didn't really look like she was concentrating on making anything happen at all (which it looks like she's doing most other times she's using the force). So, might be far fetched, but could it have been Luke who did it? He wasn't dead yet by that point.
tbar310 ยท 11 points ยท Posted at 22:55:30 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I'm thinking Leia and/or Luke may have helped her. I mean, Yoda nose-booped Luke with his walking stick and started a fire with lightning.
CatManDontDo ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 05:07:05 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Yeah but that's fucking Yoda
flies_with_owls ยท 102 points ยท Posted at 20:33:20 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Snoke talks about this. There is some kind of strange balance at play. She rises along with Ren. Luke and Vader purified and balanced the force after long years of imbalance because of the sith (and the Jedi), possibly opening the doors to stronger force sensitives than ever before.
Caiden019 ยท 102 points ยท Posted at 20:36:04 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I'm not a huge fan of that story point. I understand that they are trying to develop on the mystery behind the force, but it sort comes off as lazy way to develop Rey without actually developing her.
flies_with_owls ยท 52 points ยท Posted at 20:51:58 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Isn't her whole deal kind of, "I have this power and I don't understand it." I've never felt like I needed more explanation than that she has been force sensitive her whole life and has a passing enough knowledge of the jedi to start trying things once she realizes that she has the ability.
Caiden019 ยท 40 points ยท Posted at 20:58:11 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
That's fine. I've got no issue with her starting to develop her abilities. The problem is that we see her doing fairly impressive things in the force well before anyone got her to understand what the force is and how to control it. Even the embodiment of the force needed formal training to do simple actions in the force.
kollider13 ยท 25 points ยท Posted at 00:09:46 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
How about Luke deflecting bolts without being able to see pretty much right after meeting Obi-wan? I seem to remember Anakin winning a pod race as a child against opponents with better pods and less honor? And why do people have to learn to use the force at the same rate? It's totally conceivable that some people take to it faster than others, like as in life.
Jakerod_The_Wolf ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 07:26:03 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Luke failed using the force to deflect the blasters at first though. Not to mention you can hear the remote moving around which makes it easier to deflect.
Caiden019 ยท -7 points ยท Posted at 00:13:24 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
In terms of learning quickly no one should be faster than Luke or Anakin.
Backwater_Buccaneer ยท 23 points ยท Posted at 00:35:02 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
That's narrow thinking and I'm glad Rey and the ST aren't limited by it.
Caiden019 ยท 16 points ยท Posted at 00:42:29 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Anakin is literally the force itself and Luke is canonically the most powerful jedi to ever live. If Rey is learning faster than them then she needs a reason.
Backwater_Buccaneer ยท 21 points ยท Posted at 00:48:18 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
You must be thinking of the old EU. That's not part of the new canon.
Both Luke and Anakin knew nothing of the Force or the Jedi until somewhat later in life. Rey grew up idolizing the Jedi. Yoda tells Luke that simply believing and doing is by far the most part of using the Force, not training. Anakin didn't know to believe, and Luke didn't believe, whereas Rey always believed, and knew stories of the kind of things you can do with the Force, so she was already leagues ahead.
You gotta pay less attention to the fan theories of how these things work, and go by what the movies themselves tell you - particularly, what's explained by the greatest Jedi master. It's all there for you to see if you pay attention instead of trying to apply your own rules to it.
Caiden019 ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 01:00:59 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
It's G-Canon and Disney hasn't tried to change it.
Pretty sure most Jedi on the order believed in the force and they still needed a decade or so of training before anyone considered them competent force users.
[deleted] ยท 10 points ยท Posted at 01:43:57 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
[removed]
Caiden019 ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 01:59:37 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
For claiming I should look at the screen maybe you should open your ears. He never said never. He said Rey didn't hesitate in the face of the Darkside just like Ben and he feared what might happen. He was afraid Rey would turn like Ben did.
Luke is also part of the Skywalker blood line and Canonically the most power force user in history. He is going to advance faster than the average force user and his training was nowhere near complete when he left Dagobah.
Easilyremembered ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 05:50:35 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Not OP, but โIโve only seen raw power like this once before, in Ben Solo. It didnโt scare me then. It does now.โ
Backwater_Buccaneer ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 06:12:37 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
No, that's not canon. What's canon is that he says he's only seen that kind of power once before (before Rey), in Ben Solo. And yes, he did say that, I just got out of the theater from seeing it again. Canonically, Rey and Ben are more powerful than Luke, in his own words.
Caiden019 ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 06:22:05 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
He's talking about the power to go into the darkness without hesitation. He fears that it could spawn a second person like Ben. Someone highly adept with the force and on a war path. It's no reason to believe that they are actually stronger than him, especially after he made fouls out of both of them.
Backwater_Buccaneer ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 06:35:38 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
No, he's not talking about temptation to the dark side, he's talking about their raw power, which is why those are the words he used. Stop ignoring what's in the actual movie to cling to your baseless complaint. You're trying so hard to find flaws where there aren't any that you're ignoring what's in the movie itself, and doing mental gymnastics to dismiss what's actually on screen.
RomanovaRoulette ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 06:27:57 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Yeah, Luke was canonically the most powerful Jedi to liveโuntil another surpassed him. I mean, did you think that NO ONE would ever be more powerful or Force sensitive than him? That no one in history would ever have more raw power than him? Heโs only the most powerful until he isnโt. And thatโs how it always works. Right now Rey is powerful as hell but there will come a day when another surpasses her in power. Itโs inevitable.
Caiden019 ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 06:32:40 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Considering how absurd his progression as a Jedi is? Yes. As an avid fan of Dragon Ball Z, I don't want Star Wars to become DBZ. Make a power ceiling and stick to it.
RomanovaRoulette ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 06:42:28 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Iโm sorry but thatโs ridiculous and it makes Luke seem like a Gary Stu. Like, why should he randomly be the power ceiling for a force that is SO strong and unique and ancient? A force that will exist throughout the universe for all time? Please. Give me a break. Thatโs like saying that no wizard can ever be as powerful as Dumbledore. Dumbledore was OP as hell but one day, someone will surpass him (just as Dumbledore surpassed the previous greatest wizard: Merlin). This is just yโall being salty that your personal favorite character is being overtaken by someone else.
ItsABiscuit ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 02:59:58 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Why?
CatManDontDo ยท -5 points ยท Posted at 05:05:57 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
It's established that Obi-Wan opened Luke's senses for that exercise to impress Han
Easilyremembered ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 05:40:35 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Wtf are you talking about? Where is this established?
CatManDontDo ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 13:14:32 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Lucas' novelization and the Radio Drama
Easilyremembered ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 14:54:03 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Neither of which are canon...
So it is an interesting theory for sure. But not โestablished.โ
CatManDontDo ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:01:57 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
The novel written by Lucas isn't established
Easilyremembered ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:08:44 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
yes, that is my point.
CatManDontDo ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:16:59 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
That was supposed to have a question mark. Why would his own novel not be part of the canon?
Easilyremembered ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:32:00 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Because it's not. If you want to redefine what "canon" means, away from what the current owner/purveyor of the story has, then sure, anything can be canon to you, and the word becomes somewhat meaningless.
CatManDontDo ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:39:03 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I guess I'm just old. In my head anything that came from Lucas himself was held above anything that comes after.
flies_with_owls ยท 34 points ยท Posted at 21:06:38 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I actually think that is one of the things I really like about this trilogy. I appreciate that these new storytellers are taking the handcuffs off of the force and giving it space to be a little bit unpredictable again. The more we think we know about how the force works, the less interesting it becomes.
HamstersAreReal ยท 27 points ยท Posted at 23:07:12 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I don't. Being a powerful force user feels less like weighty life decision and more like a convenient super power now. I'm personally sick of superheros with easily obtained OP powers, we see enough of it in Marvel and DC.
Caiden019 ยท 32 points ยท Posted at 21:20:51 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I disagree. I like a lot of knowledge and lore that was put into the force in the EU. But that's personal preference.
๐๏ธ tyrannustyrannus ยท 12 points ยท Posted at 21:34:38 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
there's a lot more time to explain things in the novels of the EU
Caiden019 ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 21:37:34 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I'm not saying one is better than the other, just that I like the lore of the force to be a bit more direct than mystical.
LitchedSwetters ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 01:08:22 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
So since they did it in the EU they have to do it in the new films? If that's the case, The Last Jedi should've been called Dark Force Rising
Caiden019 ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 01:24:36 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I never said that. I just said I preferred it.
narwi ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 09:25:23 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
It is not taking "handcuffs of the force". This is fundamentally changing what and how of force and force users. Suddenly the only thing that matters is power, the force users are no longer adept of a mystical force but mere strongmen. This idiotism is also reflected in Luke's surprise how he of a legendary bloodline could not build up a training academy.
Jakerod_The_Wolf ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 07:23:59 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
The problem is that her natural ability means she doesn't have to work for anyrhing which makes for boring character development. The second problem is that with the exception of things like breathing, nothing comes natural to people. People need to experience things to learn. Some learn quicker than others but everyone has to learn.
flies_with_owls ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 11:51:18 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Her character development isn't rooted in how good she is at the force. It's rooted in her struggle of identity. I'm not defined by what I do at my job or my hobbies and skills. I'm defined by my relationships and thoughts and actions.
Jakerod_The_Wolf ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 14:56:35 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
No you're defined by all of those things. Matter ot fact, if someone was writing you as a main character for a book; your job, hobbies, and/or skills would definitely come up and might even be the first thing people would learn about you other than name.
The point is that her super force abilities that she never actually learned how to use are used as deus ex machinas like 3 times in TFA. It makes her boring because nothing can stop her. She has had two opportunities to kill Kylo Ren, essentially a sith who is more powerful than Vader and she has had one days worth of training. Kylo had years and perhaps even a decade of it. And when she had the first opportunity to kill him she had never even held a lightsaber before. There are explanations for why she survived but Kylo should have been able to pull the saber from her hand. Luke was able to pull a saber from snow after getting slashes across the face by a wampa after only a year of practice. Kylo should have been able to do it after a decade of actual training against a woman who had none.
Jakerod_The_Wolf ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 14:56:30 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
No you're defined by all of those things. Matter ot fact, if someone was writing you as a main character for a book; your job, hobbies, and/or skills would definitely come up and might even be the first thing people would learn about you other than name.
The point is that her super force abilities that she never actually learned how to use are used as deus ex machinas like 3 times in TFA. It makes her boring because nothing can stop her. She has had two opportunities to kill Kylo Ren, essentially a sith who is more powerful than Vader and she has had one days worth of training. Kylo had years and perhaps even a decade of it. And when she had the first opportunity to kill him she had never even held a lightsaber before. There are explanations for why she survived but Kylo should have been able to pull the saber from her hand. Luke was able to pull a saber from snow after getting slashes across the face by a wampa after only a year of practice. Kylo should have been able to do it after a decade of actual training against a woman who had none.
NRDL ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 01:05:11 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Thinking about this, I got a very Voldemort-Harry parallel in my mind.
YojimboSon ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 02:53:13 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
He also says he originally thought โSkywalkerโ was the light rising to meet Kylo, which sort of contradicts that idea.
jewnior109 ยท 32 points ยท Posted at 21:50:11 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I loved TLJ and TFA but this is my one major problem with this trilogy as a whole. Everyother movie has made a point of showing that strength in the force without training means nothing, as people can't control it with any degree of accuracy or intent. It took Luke at least a year to learn how to move objects using the force. Anakin (the chosen one, born of the force) couldn't do shit all besides his reaction time and intuition (untrained force potential).
Oyul ยท 26 points ยท Posted at 22:25:19 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
We donโt know how long Luke was training with Yoda. It could have been days, weeks or months, really.
Besides, are people forgetting that Luke started out as a sheltered farm boy? Rey grew up alone and has been fighting to defend herself since she was a child. If she wasnโt good at it, sheโd be dead or starving.
Sorry, but it seems like no one questions improbable leaps in ability of skill (fucking anakin blowing up battle ships as a 10 year old) until itโs a woman. Iโm not buying that this is a grievance coming from a genuine place.
IamTheSpookMan ยท 23 points ยท Posted at 23:44:40 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Right. No one thought the 8 year old blowing up a capitol ship and stopping an entire army was weird.
kevinwc ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 05:00:14 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
You're literally comparing this to the most universally hated Star Wars movie.
RomanovaRoulette ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 06:37:49 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
But it wasnโt hated for that reason. It was hated for other reasons: boring, bad dialogue, etc. No one was ever like โDamn that Anakin, what a Gary Stu! So fake! A child would never be able to do that!โ
IamTheSpookMan ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 05:03:45 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Ok first off the Clone Wars movie is so much worse. Secondly I'm replying to the person above me.
rickarooo ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 07:58:19 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
It's established that he's an amazing pod racer. He's 8 and he's basically racing in Formula 1. He can do this because of his insane force potential.
Rey is scrappy, but she hasn't been given any explanation into how force sensitive she is. Anakin with no training was an amazing pilot. Rey with no training is an amazing pilot, skilled duelist, a skilled force user, expert marksman with a blaster, etc. She's handed everything. It's not gender it's bad writing.
ItsABiscuit ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 03:06:35 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Unless Leia and Han spent ages getting to Bepsin and then ages once they got there before Vadar sprung the trap, Luke wasn't on Dagobah for long at all. A matter of days, not weeks.
bluwafflehoarder ยท 14 points ยท Posted at 01:32:21 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I think the main point is that it seems Rey has like little to no flaws. She is just excellent at everything. Whereas when Anakin is discovered, we are given the impression from a Jedi we have been with in the story, that he is the literal embodiment of the force. So that would lead us to believe he is going to be very skilled, just not trained. Rey, especially when we are given the idea that her parents meant nothing, is exceptional in most things we see in the films, so it just seems kind of uninteresting that she is just too good at too much.
ItsABiscuit ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 03:15:15 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
She's naive. She bought Finn's lie about being in the Resistance. She thought Luke would wade in with a laser sword and destroy an army. She thought Kylo Ren was going to turn back to the light.
She's insecure about her parents throughout TFA and the first half of TLJ. To the point she tries to do dumb things like go back to Jakku, and diving into the dark side cave.
She freaks out when she touches the lightsabre in TFA, reacting purely out of fear to run away.
She has weaknesses and makes mistakes.
Jakerod_The_Wolf ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 07:48:59 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
But the problem is that she is so good at every skill her naive nature doesnt matter because she can get out of any situation she is thrown into. Contrast that with Luke who would have died 3 times over at the battle of yavin alone had it not been for other people saving his ass. And the same thing happens in ESB where he only survives because others save him due to his deficit of skill. Rey beats Kylo after knowing about the force for a few hours. Luke gets his ass kicked after training with two master jedi. And then gets it kicked again the next movie.
rickarooo ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 08:04:53 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
She's not wise. That's it.
She never fired a blaster before and was hitting dead center on her second shot.
She can pilot the millennium falcon after just jumping in it.
She can take on Kylo Ren and those red guard guys in a lightsaber duel with no formal training.
She can use the force incredibly well with no formal training.
She can do it all so easily.
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 10:32:11 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
ItsABiscuit ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 10:35:51 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I don't do much dating given I've been married for 12 years and have kids. But hey, if someone having to make her do a handstand and move some rocks would make her more flawed than being an emotional idiot, then power to you.
ripplewho ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 10:57:16 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Well yeah, seeing her actually struggle to do the things she does would make her more flawed. At least in the way people care about.
No one is saying "Rey is literally the embodiment of perfection in every aspect of life and she has never once done anything wrong", they're saying that within a couple weeks Rey's reached levels that took even the most powerful of Jedi years to attain. It's ridiculous, makes every past Jedi look stupid and weak, and it plays out like a bad fanfic.
RomanovaRoulette ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 06:36:14 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
How is she exceptional in most things and without flaws?
Sheโs very clearly fearful, naive, hopelessly optimistic to the point of her own detriment at times, stubborn, and temperamental. She doesnโt necessarily think things through all the time, she just lashes out and reacts instinctively (I think this has been ingrained in her due to her rough upbringing).
Sheโs good at fighting because she had to be, growing up alone on Jakku. She trained with her staff.
She knows how to fix and fly things because thatโs all the entertainment she had on Jakku.
Sheโs also good at certain things because without even realizing it, sheโs been using the Force to help her. Before she realized what it was, it was just this uncontrollable part of her that she wasnโt aware of. It just sort of...leaked out and helped her (such as convincing people to do things, aiding her flying and fighting, etc).
Jakerod_The_Wolf ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 07:42:26 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Anakin was already established as a good pilot. All he did was fly well and get lucky once. He didn't suddenly force pull the ship out of orbit.
425FourTwoFive ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 02:48:40 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Alright, to make this a non-gendered conversation, I have problems with power creep in male characters in these movies. The whole mind-reading ability given to Kylo Ren and Snoke is way OP and not consistent with previous canon. Luke's ability to literally astral project across the galaxy is insanely OP and is something Lucas would never have even considered putting in a movie.
ItsABiscuit ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 03:05:04 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I must have missed that message about how the force works. Luke is mentioned as having a problem with control and concentration. It's stated that Jedi need to start their training young, but it's unclear whether this is because of how long the training actually takes or whether because the Jedi ran like a cult that brainwashed their members and that's easier to do to kids.
MattTVI ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 01:31:35 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
How did the Jedi from a "thousand" generations ago learn to use the force at all with no one around to train them?
How did anyone ever become a Jedi? At some point, someone had to figure out how to use the force without knowing what it was and having no one to teach them or there would be no Jedi.
KommieZombic ยท 28 points ยท Posted at 20:49:16 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Rey grew up dealing with dangerous situations. Luke probably didn't have much opportunity or need to hone his latent force abilities on a moisture farm. Much like language, maybe the best time to learn is as a child, which is why the jedi recruit so early anyways.
Caiden019 ยท 27 points ยท Posted at 20:54:01 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
But she wasn't actively using the force till TFA. Every force user we've seen so far has needed some form of guidance in order to actively use the force.
Plenty of force sensitives live their lives without knowing it and will die without using it.
KommieZombic ยท 22 points ยท Posted at 20:59:41 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
It's "wax-on wax-off" She wasn't actively using the force, but she was forced to flex those muscles in a more instictive way. When she was finally taught what the force was, then things naturally just became clearer to her. She was forced to learn how to use the force passively, which made her much better at using it actively later on.
Caiden019 ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 21:02:49 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
But why is she so adept at using it actively before anyone even taught her how? We've never seen a force user do something like that and we've followed the stories the two most powerful force users to ever live.
KommieZombic ยท 15 points ยท Posted at 21:07:06 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Who knows what Anakin was doing with the force the first week after he was taught how to meditate? They sort of skip that part. Also, I already went over Luke's relatively safe upbringing, which resulted in less latent force use as a necessity.
Caiden019 ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 21:21:16 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
It would still be more training than Rey got in TFA.
KommieZombic ยท 15 points ยท Posted at 21:24:38 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
More formal training, yes. However, he was so much younger than she was. She had years of passive "training" just from her upbringing. Maybe this is the real reason the Jedi were so keen to pluck away younglings in the first place. Maybe if they reach a certain age, under certain conditions, they start using the force actively without training. The real point of the training is to avoid allowing them to fall to the dark side, not to show them how to use their powers.
Caiden019 ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 21:28:53 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
But that's really not how the force works. Like I said, some people will go their entire lives without ever using the force despite being force sensitive. If it wasn't for Luke's influence, Leia probably would have never known she was force sensitive.
The Jedi train children because it's easier to instill Jedi values into them and dictate their upbringing.
KommieZombic ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 21:31:43 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Those who go their entire lives do so perhaps because they are never faced with an event that requires the force connection to manifest itself. Rey was faced with such events. Either way there had to have been someone at some point who used the force actively without having been trained, otherwise who would have started the order in the first place? Who trained the trainer?
edit: typo
Caiden019 ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 21:38:43 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Chicken or the egg? Jedi teachings go back a long long way.
KommieZombic ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 21:55:04 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Honestly, I'm not sure the chicken/egg metaphor works here. The force came first. As I understand it, it's eternal. Somebody HAD to be the first one to start using it. Somebody had to have figured out what it was at some point. If the first Jedi could do it, then why shouldn't the Last Jedi be able to figure it out?
Caiden019 ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 22:00:20 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I was talking more in how the Jedi came to be. We have no idea how the order started. Did someone just naturally learn the force and pass it on or was the force itself the first teacher?
KommieZombic ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:06:56 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
More importantly, what's the difference?
Caiden019 ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 22:13:17 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
To the person that learned it? Potentially nothing. In the current lore we really don't know how much the force itself impacts a persons life. The force could simply be a part of nature that people learned to manipulate over time. Or it acts on it's own and had influence on the creation of Jedi and Sith.
wakerider47 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 02:35:11 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
The very first force users likely had very weak control of the force, but noticed there was something there. Learning to control it was likely something that occurred over generations, eventially evolving into the Jedi and Sith as we know them. If there was some ancient God-like "First Jedi", we probably would have heard about them in the lore. But we haven't, meaning Rey is just magically the fastest learning, most naturally gifted force sensitive the SW universe has ever seen and is exactly what everyone is complaining about.
When the series so far has every force user ever require extensive training to achieve mastery and all of the sudden Johnson makes up a magic uber warrior it is lazy writing, plain and simple. This isn't dragonball Z. Star Wars didn't need "Force Inflation" to be entertaining.
KommieZombic ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 02:40:48 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
This is actually something we haven't been shown before. It's a person with a very strong connection to the force, who has reached adolescence in a situation where they are constantly forced to utilize their force connection to survive without training. How is this not fertile story ground? What's wrong with expanding the universe into places it hasn't gone before?
wakerider47 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 03:19:06 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
You keep bringing up the growing up in a harsh environment thing, but that is not unique to Rey. Having to fight doesn't mean she is the only force sensitive to have had a rough childhood. Anakin was a slave, who used his force sensitivity to compete in pod races. Luke was a farmer who used his force sensitivity to become a top notch pilot. I'm sure plenty of the students in TOR had rough childhoods. Ahsoka was nearly enslaved at 3 years old. Force users git good at stuff they do. Fighting is no different than flying or anything else requiring good reflexes.
But yes, her connection to the force is the strongest of anyone we have ever seen given her lack of training. And again I'm going to call it force inflation. Producer needed a force capable hero to compete with the genetically gifted and extensively trained Kylo Ren? Just make one up who is shocker the most gifted we have ever seen! I'm not saying the chosen plot is impossible (its fiction), just lazy. For a character that the producer seems to want to make a "nobody", giving her this much power without working for it makes her completely unrelatable.
KommieZombic ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 03:36:49 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Anakin could have developed along the same lines as Rey if he hadn't been picked up when he was. Luke didn't really need to be able to bullseye womp rats in his t16 to survive. Surviving as long as she did without Jedi training or intervention could easily allow somebody with a connection to the force to develop the abilities she has shown. Also, she has yet to compete with Kylo on an even field. His training does clearly give him the edge.
wakerider47 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 04:01:39 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Eh. Agree to disagree. Nearly all of the viewers who dislike the film agree her powers are too strong given her training. Your rationalization of how she achieved such power is just that. Your rationalization.
It really comes down to 1 of 2 scenarios:
1) The writers sat down and said "hmm... lets create a hero who is more gifted than anyone before. We can explain it in the final chapter by revealing her origins and how it shaped her into greatness." In this case, the source/explanation for her exceptional abilities will be revealed in Episode IX and I'll eat my foot. Even if this is the case, I would feel they did a very poor job foreshadowing/alluding to this possibility in the first 2 films.
2) The writers wrote the script, thought little of her exceptional abilities, and the viewers complained that she is OP. In this case, the explanation for her abilities will be completely overlooked in Episode IX, because there is none; and any theorizing to explain her abilities is just grasping at straws in an attempt to backfill a hole caused by a lazy writing decision.
ItsABiscuit ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 03:17:41 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
How do you "know" how the force works, based on what we've seen in the movies to date, and remembering the old EU has been demoted from being canon?
Coding_Cactus ยท 21 points ยท Posted at 22:14:47 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
The Clone Wars cartoons prove this to be false. There are several force sensitive children throughout Star Wars and some are even shown to be using it as infants. Even the kid at the end of TLJ pulls the broom to him.
Caiden019 ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 22:21:19 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Those kids had been introduced their training. As we see from the Padawans in Episode 2 they start learning pretty early. Honestly I didn't notice the kid when I first watched it so I would have to go back to be sure. Regardless it falls under same issues I have with Rey. Why have these limitations suddenly changed?
Coding_Cactus ยท 10 points ยท Posted at 22:30:33 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
This infant Rodian is using the force.
As for limitations, there aren't necessarily limitations that actually exist. What some may find difficult others may find easy. It could very well come down to just how strong ones faith is and how attuned to the force they are. Rey has nothing but the force and she hasn't for her entire life. Suddenly she's focusing on using it and it's working. I'm not sure why there has to be some artificial ladder one has to climb to use the force.
Caiden019 ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 22:33:19 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Because until recently that's all we've seen. People had to grow with their abilities. No way ANH Luke was ready to go up against any moderately trained force user.
ItsABiscuit ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 03:18:51 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
He evaded Vadar in a dogfight.
Jakerod_The_Wolf ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 07:38:39 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Only because he is a good pilot and for a short period. Not to mention he got hit... well r2 did. He was dead if Han didn't show up.
AceJon ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 01:48:55 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Because the force awakened.
jjack339 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 03:49:04 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Anakin was using the force as a kid. That is why he was the only human who could do pod racing. He had no training, he was just using it as part of his nature.
Caiden019 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 03:52:13 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I mentioned this already. Force sensitives (especially those that are strong in the force) "accidentally" use the force. They don't actively try to manipulate it, it just happens.
Jakerod_The_Wolf ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 07:36:20 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I mean he probably had to fight tusken raiders or at the very least they're a threat to him. He carries a rifle pn Tatooine for a reason.
narwi ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 09:28:39 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
And an alternative universe is born where Luke did not hunt womp rats in a speeder or race skyhoppers in canyons. Maybe JJ and Rian just paid as much attention to Star Wars as you seem to do.
working878787 ยท 46 points ยท Posted at 21:15:16 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Luke force pulls his light saber at the beginning of Empire without Ben ever teaching him how to do that. Not every Force skill is taught. Some are figured out.
Caiden019 ยท 47 points ยท Posted at 21:22:56 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
But that's several years after he learned about his force sensitivity. He's aware of what his is capable of and has started exploring it. Rey just sees things and then tries them out a few hours later and they work flawlessly for her. Luke still struggled to pull the saber.
Blackshirts98 ยท 11 points ยท Posted at 21:52:16 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
When you started school were you able to read before some of your classmates? Were some classmates in contrary more adept in math or science or another subject? Thereโs your answer
Caiden019 ยท 16 points ยท Posted at 22:01:53 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Luke is just as adept if not more in the force than Rey. His canonically the most powerful force user to have lived.
widget1321 ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 01:56:53 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
No. He's just as strong in the force, if not more, than Rey. He probably barely used it instinctually as a boy. She's probably been using it a lot unconsciously her whole life. She probably has a natural affinity for USING the Force in certain ways that Luke doesn't, even if he's stronger.
Caiden019 ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 02:04:21 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Until Disney explicitly tries to change the canon (and hopefully they do it logically) Luke is the power ceiling.
WildlyOnTopic ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 03:23:53 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
What? Where does this come from with just what we have from the OT? Rey isn't force projecting herself. That she can lift rocks without first running through the forest with Yoda on her back doesn't prove much.
Caiden019 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 03:43:33 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Lucas has said that Luke is the most powerful force user in history.
Mr_Times ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 04:32:37 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
He also said Jar Jar is the key to all of this...
Caiden019 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 04:34:52 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Jar Jar help lead the motion to get Sidious emergency powers which would lead to him taking over The Republic.
Mr_Times ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 04:36:23 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
He also said Mace Windu being alive is fine by him. All I'm saying is George has said quite a lot in his day.
Caiden019 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 05:01:38 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Why not? We've seen both Anakin and Luke fall incredible heights and turn out fine before.
Blackshirts98 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 07:58:36 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
He is alive how dare you question it
WildlyOnTopic ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 03:56:52 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
He said a lot of things.
Caiden019 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 03:57:27 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
He did, and it still falls under canon.
WildlyOnTopic ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 05:53:57 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
He also said Jar Jar Binks was a funny character. Is that canon?
Caiden019 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 05:56:49 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
One thing is in regards the actual story. The other is his opinion as the writer.
WildlyOnTopic ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 06:04:14 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Lol, why can't we read "Luke is the most..." As an opinion? And what sense of powerful does he have in mind? And the stuff Luke has done under Lucas's control pales in comparison to the prequel Jedi.
Caiden019 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 06:10:02 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Because it's not really a subjective concept. How funny something is is a subjective concept, but story details are not. When J R.R. Tolkien says that Aragorn ruled long and the kingdom prospered he means it. It wasn't meant to be taken as an opinion.
It was the 70's and 80's the technology and general film making were different.
WildlyOnTopic ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 15:09:07 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I actually like this point about JRR Tolkien and Lucas. I don't think objective/subjective is the right distinction here. Maybe positive/evaluative, but whatever. A term like powerful is not very clear, whereas length of reign is. And maybe I give less credibility to Lucas's claims like this than I do Tolkien. When Lucas evaluates Luke's power, I have a hard time knowing what he means.
This all said... You say we couldn't get the kind of power levels of the prequels with the technology in the 70s. From the films, then, our ability to measure Luke's power is hampered... Consequently, comparisons to new force users is hampered, as we CAN do more than the OT, technologically. Rey is not as powerful as the Prequels trilogy jedis. She's not jumping, flipping, reflecting blaster shots, she gets cut by a praetorian guard, etc. She can lift rocks, many of them, but this is like an entry level task for jedis, re ESB.
What about within OT? Well, within the OT, we never see Luke do things like lifting an entire X wing, and we see Yoda doing this. We see that he fails pretty hard at lightsaber mastery, until RoTJ battle against Vader when he's channelling the dark side.
George Lucas says Luke is most powerful. How do we make sense of this given Luke's in-OT comparisons and across franchise comparisons? We'll have to translate markers of OT power to PT power to capture that Luke is most powerful (I think a stupid route) or say Luke can do all that PT stuff and we just didn't see him do it (I think this is a weird way to go). Or have to say that Luke has a different kind of power from expressive force ability (jumping, lifting, sabering, etc). I prefer this last interpretation myself.
Now how does this relate to Rey. As said above, she can't do or doesn't do the things force users in the PT do, and we have the tech to show that. Furthermore, that luke is super powerful now or at the end of the OT (or whatever Luke-state Lucas was referring to when he made the claim) has nothing to do with how fast he learned the force or whatever. Rey learns some things quickly and others not.. I mean, have you seen or read Jonathon Strange and Mr Norrel? There, one person is naturally gifted with magic, and another is capable through arduous study. Why can't this be the case here? And if you look closer, Rey is not OP. She relies on her blaster, gets cut up fighting one guard while Kylo takes on like 5 at a time, knocks the millennium falcon down a bunch, misses with her blaster, fails to properly interpret Kylo Ren's intentions/conflict, can't resist force users throwing her around or reading her thoughts (snoke), and can't jump around. Like, what the hell are people talking about when they say she's too powerful?
widget1321 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 02:20:43 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I never said otherwise.
ItsABiscuit ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 03:20:49 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
What the source for that? Is it part of the old EU?
Caiden019 ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 05:04:24 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Lucas said Luke is the strongest force user in history. His comments spawned the movement in the EU that turned Luke into a super God.
ItsABiscuit ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 05:24:51 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
So Lucas said it, but it's not shown in the movies or any of the canon material? I don't know if that makes it canon or not.
And as of the sale to Disney, Lucas isn't the one who decides what's truth and what isn't.
Caiden019 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 05:30:00 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
He wrote the series. If Peter Jackson told me Aragorn never became king I would laugh in his face. If J R.R. Tolkien came back to life and told me it I would accept it as the new canon (follow by several questions of course).
ItsABiscuit ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 05:40:41 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
But he didn't write TFA or TLJ. There's a difference between Jackson interpreting stuff that has happened in the books and writing a sequel. It's a bit like all the things J.K.Rowling has said about what happens after Deathly Hallows since finishing the Harry Potter series. When she said it was a mistake for her to put Ron and Hermoine together, does it make it canon that Hermoine wouldn't find Ron attractive?
Caiden019 ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 06:28:33 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I think it comes down to a fundamental question. Do we overwrite the canon of the creator because it is in new hands?
Personally I would say no, but that's just me.
ItsABiscuit ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 07:10:56 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Also how important canon consistency is compared to telling a good story? They don't have to be mutually exclusive, but there will be times when it will be a choice between respecting every element of the canon and the author telling the story they want to tell.
vontasben ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 10:21:42 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
What's the source on Luke being the most powerful Force user ever?
I'm not aware of any "in universe" comparisons, did I miss it or was this info conveyed in interviews, etc?
_gr4m_ ยท 17 points ยท Posted at 22:08:19 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Yeah, but none of my classmates did advanced quantum mechanics first day at school before even learning to read.
WildlyOnTopic ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 03:22:03 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Neither is Rey.
Blackshirts98 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 22:22:28 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
It wasnโt her first day lol, sheโs been using the force her whole life
nideak ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 01:13:39 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
????
Blackshirts98 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 01:15:52 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
It wasnโt just like sheโs just starting out with the force, sheโs has an insane amount of raw power
nideak ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 02:19:55 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
where is it shown that she's been using the force her whole life?
Doesn't Maz Kanata have to EXPLAIN TO HER what the force is?
Blackshirts98 ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 03:31:23 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Iโm not saying she knows that itโs the force. Did you even watch the movie? Rey even said that she had felt the force in her her whole life and only now has it become truly awakened lmao
nideak ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 12:17:29 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
it's only truly been awakened now, but she's been using it her whole life, so it was like, half awake before?
Blackshirts98 ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 13:13:52 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Sheโs always known something is there but only now is itโs power or potential final unveiled
RomanovaRoulette ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 06:30:47 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Weโre shown it several times. Did you even read OPโs post? They outline when Reyโs used it before she even knew the Force was a thing. Without her even realizing it, sheโs been using it to influence people and aid her skills.
Jakerod_The_Wolf ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 07:33:05 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Did she? Or did she just talk to people?
RomanovaRoulette ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 07:35:34 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
She clearly didnโt โjust talkโ when she convinced that alien thing to give up BB-8. She also wasnโt โjust luckyโ when she saved Finn from the Rathtar or when she fired a blaster at Maz Kanataโs place and suddenly knew how to aim very well. The camerawork and her expression are intentionally set up to show us that something odd is happening when she suddenly starts firing the blaster. Itโs telling us โIsnโt this odd? Isnโt this kind of weird?โ on purpose.
Jakerod_The_Wolf ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 15:12:05 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Okay. Let's say that is the case even though I don't remember any of it. That just makes her a shitty character. Is Rey in trouble? She'll just use the force that she has had no training in and only learned about 5 minutes ago. Captured? Just mind trick that guy even though she has no way of knowing what that is or if it's possible. Fighting a dark jedi? She's more powerful. She is more powerful than Luke is at the end of return of the Jedi and he had years of training and practice. He had seen the force put to work by two Jedi Masters and two Sith. She didn't even know it was real before Han told her and she mind tricks a guy.
Wobalf ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 01:57:23 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
That's not what we're shown though
ThePilot ยท 17 points ยท Posted at 21:58:31 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
That's a good example of Luke learning how to control the Force on his own, but I think one way or another we have to agree that the rate Rey progresses is beyond what Luke did.
After reading comments about this, I think having her progress so rapidly was a mistake. Despite fan theories and retcons on the topic, the movie itself doesn't give a satisfying explanation (yet). This makes Rey's power a distraction to the rest of the movie and ultimately a bad storytelling choice.
That's not to say I disliked The Force Awakens or The Last Jedi. They were both really good movies.
working878787 ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 22:25:28 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
The movie flat out tells you that she has massively raw force sensitivity as does Kylo. Luke talks about how much it frightens him. She has greater force potential than even Luke himself. She has massive potential, therefore she progresses faster.
ThePilot ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 22:34:46 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
We also have Snoke saying she's some sort of light side avatar. Neither is a particularly satisfying explanation. It's good enough for consistency, I guess.
Practicalaviationcat ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 23:20:07 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Anakin had raw force power but he still needed lots of training. It's just crazy to me that Rey is preforming these crazy impressive feats after a few days. You can have raw power, but it still needs to be honed with training and practice.
WildlyOnTopic ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 03:21:39 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
There are not a ton of crazy impressive feats, to be honest. She withstands Kylo Ren's mind control and force convinces someone to let her free. She's not a former farmer, she knows how to fight. And if you rewatch the fight scene in TLJ, she sucks with a lightsaber, taking on one or two guards while Kylo Ren wipes the others off the floor. Does she learn fast? Yes. Does she have raw power? Yes. So what? She clearly fails at falling into temptation. I'd argue the only reason she was able to defeat Kylo Ren in TFA is because Kylo Ren is fucked up internally and externally and she channels the darkside.
Practicalaviationcat ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 04:40:30 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I actually agree with you about the TFA fight. I would love if the dark side thing was true. I really wish they went a little further with the whole temptation thing.
And the feat that pushed it over the edge for me was the rocks at the end of TLJ. She hadn't really practiced any telekinesis but suddenly is able to practice feats that rival Yoda in the PT and OT. I can accept that she is strong, maybe even the strongest ever, but I just think it's poor storytelling to have her be so strong so fast.
If you can accept this that is fine, but I just doesn't sit right with me. I really makes me wish TFA and TLJ could have had some time between them but that blame is on JJ not Rian.
WildlyOnTopic ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 06:00:57 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I am so with you on the time distance between TFA and TLJ. I blame JJ for this as well. She had some telekenesis stuff at least in TFA -- lightsaber? I get moving a lot of boulders out of the way is a bit intense, quicker than we're used to. But I'll settle with the interpretation that she had this stuff just out of reach and now has been able to tap into it. Also, I like the interpretation here that the force has many different sides, and mastering lightsabers and lifting rocks is only one. Not sure if you have seen legend of Korra or the last Airbender series. But Korra has a super easy time mastering three elements and then the fourth is super hard. A similar story could be said about Rey. She's really adept at this stuff, but terrible at control, at the more spiritual elements, at reading others intentions, etc...
Practicalaviationcat ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 08:31:53 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I have seen Korra and that is an interesting idea. I would love if the movies gave her something that she had a bit more trouble with. I just hope they can squeeze it into one more movie.
JohnnyReeko ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 08:46:51 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
She was also able to beat him in TFA because he had a hole in his stomach from being shot by Chewbaccas bowcaster - a weapon which they demonstrated multiple times in the film was super powerful. Also he toyed with Finn and got his shoulder sliced too.
Now I'm no fighter, I'm a fairly average dude, but put me in a ring against the mountain from game of thrones but he's had a hole blown in his stomach and his shoulder sliced and I reckon I win that fight.
Kaffegrut ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 17:01:10 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
As long as you dont ask him what he did to your sister ypu should be fine.
WildlyOnTopic ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 03:16:51 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Or, we just accept that holy shit Rey learns shit more quickly than Luke did? Why does this make her OP? Luke is not necessarily the fastest learner of the force in the Galaxy... He's just one we are familiar with.
ThePilot ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 03:22:51 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I donโt think anyone would care if she learned faster. I think what threw people for a loop is that she displayed more power in the first 24 hours after learning about the Force than Luke did for 5 years. Itโs confusing to the audience and distracted from the main point of the movie.
They could have toned back on the Force powers a little and nothing of value would be lost, but Iโm guessing they wanted to depict her as Kylo Renโs equal.
Likesorangejuice ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 17:17:29 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Yeah I was kind of assuming it was like music, some people take years of training to be decent at a single instrument while other people can pick up a piece of taut wire and be able to make a song from it. Not everything has to be taught by professionals, it makes sense that some people would just figure it out, that's what the Jedi had to do in the first place.
๐๏ธ tyrannustyrannus ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 21:21:17 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
exactly
[deleted] ยท 11 points ยท Posted at 22:09:45 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Anakin is a podracer when no child his age should be able to manage that, though, IIRC.
rumanchu ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 04:40:27 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
The only human podracer, too.
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 11:18:17 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
And, however groan-inducing it may be, he manages to destroy that trade federation ship by "luck" (cue Obiwan re there being no such thing as luck).
๐๏ธ tyrannustyrannus ยท 55 points ยท Posted at 15:43:47 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
That is a good point, but we see some of the same from Luke.
His piloting skill is talked up in ANH. Are we to assume he's a good pilot because he trained or because he has a natural connection to the Force?
Obi-wan has him deflecting blaster shots during his first lesson. It's mere hours after he even hears about the Force for the fist time. He uses the Force to guide the torpedoes and destroy the Death Star less than a day later.
He pulls his lightsaber from the snow in the Wampa cave before he meets Yoda. We really have no idea how long he actually trained with Yoda. It couldn't have been that long.
Caiden019 ยท 77 points ยท Posted at 15:51:24 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Little column A, little column B. I'm sure most of his natural skill comes from the force, but he also clearly enjoys flying and probably worked to become a better pilot.
That's the passive skill I was talking about. The force guided Luke in destroying the Death Star and guided Anakin in winning the Podrace, but neither of them were ready to start using mind tricks on people.
He has difficulty doing so and by then he has been aware of his force sensitivity for a few years. His training with Yoda helped hone some of his skills but he still got his ass kicked by Vader and Vader wasn't even trying.
He didn't really start showing true skill with the force till Episode 6 and even then he still had a lot to learn.
๐๏ธ tyrannustyrannus ยท 54 points ยท Posted at 16:13:09 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
When Yoda raises the X-wing Luke says "I don't believe it" and Yoda tells him "that is why you fail." That fixes half of Luke's problems right there. When we see Luke in Return of the Jedi he's confident to the point of cocky.
Rey already believes in herself because she knows that power has been there her whole life.
le_GoogleFit ยท 33 points ยท Posted at 19:33:03 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
The believe in oneself argument doesn't really work at explaining the insane speed at whoch she develops her abilities. Other before her, even 'believing in themselves' still needed quite some training before being able to do half of what she is capable to do.
She's OP and given the little boy in the end with the broom, it seems they want to change the canon of how the Force works. I'm fine with that if there is an explanation (like the Force being extremely more present than in the past or something) but as of right now, it just contradicts the previous movies
[deleted] ยท 16 points ยท Posted at 19:48:16 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Maybe there's a limit of sorts as to how much force is 'available'. The Jedi are gone so instead of spreading a finite resource among hundreds if not thousands, who are trained extensively in harnessing it, there's only the raw and untrained people. So when Rey goes to lift the rocks out of the way of the cave, there's a ton of force "available" to her because the only ones tapping into it are her, Luke, and Kylo Ren.
le_GoogleFit ยท 11 points ยท Posted at 19:51:35 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I really like this explanation I have to admit. Great point!
[deleted] ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 20:15:13 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Thanks! The beauty of the force is that it lends itself to hand-waving "this is what it does" explanations. Also, the story writers are usually pretty good about not writing themselves into corners. So it's easy to come up with viable theories!
Regendorf ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 04:53:12 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Thats the Sith rule of two, developed by Dart Bane from the teachings of Dart Revan. Of course thats the EU and no longer canon so who knows if they have something similar now.
jdawg254 ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 04:18:49 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Darth Bane was right
iGotRippedOff ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 22:45:56 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
So you're saying she will get weaker as more people (presumably) tap into the force in future movies?
tacodude64 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 23:17:10 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Following that, it almost makes sense that a โForce wealth gapโ led to the downfall of the Republic. All of the elite Jedi and Sith were drawing so much of the Force that there was little left for average Jedi to defend themselves during Order 66.
mehanotherparalyzer ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 10:39:48 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I have a somewhat similar head canon. I've assumed based on the force awakening that there aren't many force users being born right now so the force is making up for those low numbers by making them more powerful. I don't see it as a resource that's available to them in your sense of it, but again more like the force is in abundance inside these people because there are so few. Luke only found like 12 padawans in the whole galaxy. So yea that's my take on it.
tbar310 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:57:54 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Holy shit that's a good theory
HamstersAreReal ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 23:13:18 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Anakin was cocky as hell, and he needed years and years of training
_Mellex_ ยท 24 points ยท Posted at 16:08:54 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
They brought in martial artists to train Daisy Ridley, and then forgot to show the part in the movie where she becomes proficient at using a lightsaber. She's with Luke for less than a day and she's already swinging that shit like she's Qui-Gon.
๐๏ธ tyrannustyrannus ยท 51 points ยท Posted at 16:31:42 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
what about the scene where she's practicing using her staff (which we've seen her kick ass with), and then is like "hey what if I try this lighstaber here, I bet a lot of the principles of fighting with these two weapons are the same"
we see Finn fight reasonably well with a Lightsaber and he has no connection to the Force. Sabine is fighting with the Darksaber and has no connection to the Force.
mtfoobwy ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 17:45:58 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
There was a whole episode dedicated to Sabine training with the darksaber.
๐๏ธ tyrannustyrannus ยท 9 points ยท Posted at 18:29:18 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
they spend like 2 minutes training and 10 minutes on Kanan dropping the harsh reality of their circumstances on her
Caiden019 ยท 32 points ยท Posted at 16:46:47 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Lightsabers are vastly different from any weapon. The blade is weightless which means you have little to no perception of where the blade is while it's out of your field of view. Prior fighting ability can help, but someone untrained with a saber is more likely to cut of their own arm than hit their target.
๐๏ธ tyrannustyrannus ยท 40 points ยท Posted at 16:56:18 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
you're right, but footwork, reaction, timing, etc would be similar.
Watch the fight with the guards again. She's great at breaking free from holds. It would absolutely make sense that a young woman living all alone on a lawless planet like Jakku would know how to escape some guy grabbing her or she'd be dead by now.
Snoke probably would have wrecked her.
Elliott2 ยท 9 points ยท Posted at 19:32:53 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
says who? pretty sure thats never really discussed outside of legends and iirc george himself said they have weight..
Qweasdy ยท 17 points ยท Posted at 20:46:07 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Kanan in Rebels teaches Sabine how to use a lightsabre onscreen and makes a point of talking about how strange/difficult it is and that they have some strange characteristics for duelling
Elliott2 ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 20:53:50 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
yeah this only thing i would remember
jgtengineer68 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 22:01:36 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
That's funny, everything in what you just said was wrong.
Rebels has canonized how lightsabers behave like it or not. Lightsabers have weight to them, the blade is actually heavier than you would expect until you get in tune with the sentient crystal inside it. Also lightsaber blades are drawn to each other, making lightsaber fighting an exercise in manipulating the bind.
Caiden019 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:07:22 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
The crystal has weight. Not the blade itself. Also I wasn't specifically talking about a lightsaber dual, just handling one in general.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:11:09 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
[removed]
Caiden019 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 22:17:38 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I just did. They only talk about the crystal when mentioning weight. Even if there was weight to the blade it would be incredibly light which causes the same issue since a vast majority of the weight is in the hilt.
aimoperative ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 05:28:03 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Not really weightless. Kanan describes it as holding a conduit of power when Sabine mentions how it's heavier than it looks.
narwi ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 09:30:35 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
That does not work even marginally liek that, not even with real swords that are far more similar to quarterstaffs than lightsabers.
mr_sprinklzzz ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 00:28:15 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
You should really watch the movie again if that's the impression you got. Rey clearly struggles during her fight with Snokes guard and it's very obvious she has a lot to learn about fighting with a lightsaber.
roboroller ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 06:26:47 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
It's established in the first 30 minutes of The Force Awakens that she's already an extremely profecient fighter with a melee weapon.
Backwater_Buccaneer ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 00:43:38 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
She's already practically a master with the staff when we first meet her in TFA, from having to fight with it to survive.
Once you're highly adept at combat, the specific nuances of individual weapons are just minor details. It's the general aptitude that matters most, and she had that before the movie started.
iProbablyKnowNothing ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 21:11:46 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I was thinking it has to do with the balanced aspect of the Force. There are so few Light side Force users that the major amplitude of the few Dark side users causes a Newton's 3rd Law effect. Every force is met with an equal and opposite force.
When Kylo used the Jedi mind trick on Rey in TFA, she was introduced to his sheer strength, and is thus that strong. She obviously has an inclination to the Force otherwise she wouldn't have been able to fight it in the first place, but she's the Chosen one here after all.
Caiden019 ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 21:25:06 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Is she? Pretty sure Anakin is the only chosen one to exist.
iProbablyKnowNothing ยท 13 points ยท Posted at 21:29:55 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Protagonist. Guess I was looking for protagonist.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 11:23:09 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
A prophecy, misread could have been.
Freckled_daywalker ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:52:28 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I think there might be something about their connection (which I'm not convinced was caused by Snoke) that lets her tap into something in Kylo, I don't want to say his training exactly, but something. Kind of like what you said, he makes her stronger.
boobityskoobity ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 22:47:32 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
She does progress a little too fast...but then again, you could argue that she should progress the fastest. Unlike Luke or Anakin, she's had to be a fighter her whole life. Even without the Force, she's great with a staff and smart/clever on her feet. She's probably subconsciously tapped into the Force a lot more because she's been in a lot more fights.
She also accidentally gets into Kylo Ren's mind as he's actively using the Force, which may have shown her a lot in a really short amount of time. And she sees him in action first-hand. Luke really doesn't see much blatant awe-inspiring use of the Force until he meets Yoda.
Godsfallen ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 01:55:16 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Hereโs my take on it. Luke was a skeptic. He doubted his abilities, he doubted the force. As a result, it was harder for him to learn.
Rey grew up in a time where Luke Skywalker was a legendary hero. Where the Jedi ways were idolized. She fully believed in the power of the force, and when she learned she had this power, she fully opened herself to it. Which allowed her to learn faster.
ItsABiscuit ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 02:58:32 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Anakin was pod racing before he met anyone. He flew a spaceship and destroyed the CIS droid mastership through "luck".
Chirrut in Rebel One is explicitly stated not to be a Jedi, yet has enough of a command of the force to navigate melees and storms of blaster fire.
There's precedent.
YungTris ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 21:25:34 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Its been answered by snoke "Light rises to meet the dark". She is not by any sense a master. But the force has been increasing in here since childhood so that the her being the light could rise to mee the dark, kylo ren. It is a bit of anomoly how quiclkly she has been able to use these different abilities, but its not impossible to think that she could be talented enough to pick these up very quickly or understand what she could do with the power within herself. Luke may have been the most powerful jedi of his time and still struglled. But he was only the most powerful as he was the only one. If you pay attention he was by no means a jedi master at all. Just as Luke says, he was a legend. Barely defeating vader by tapping into the dark side and exploiting the conflict between light and dark within him, only to be easily defeated by the emporer.
Caiden019 ยท 9 points ยท Posted at 21:31:17 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I understand their explanation for her abilities. I just think it's kind of dumb. Even the power that was meant to rise up and face Sidious (The pinnacle of Sith teaching) still had to go through years of training.
GrotesqueGroccer ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 12:34:07 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Perhaps because sidious was well trained and precise with the force Luke's innate abilities require training to be on par with that precision. That would explain reys almost explosive use of the force so quickly, to combat the unfocused and erratic force use by kylo ren
maglen69 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 23:02:44 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
And she had troubles getting pebbles to move and all of a sudden she can move boulders. Dozens of them at once?
ItsABiscuit ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 03:21:12 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Size matters not.
silkysmoothjay ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 04:03:40 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Were the pebbles moving intentional, or were they incidental to her tapping into a massive amount of Force power?
SnackAttack_Schweiz ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:09:48 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Im upvoting Space Jesus lol
FleshPrinceOfBelAir ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:51:09 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Anakin was an extremely experienced pod racer at the age of 9. I think that has something to do with The Force.
In TFA we see that Rey is already an experienced fighter. She has had an extremely rough childhood and has been forced to fend for herself. Luke, on the other hand, has just been living as a farmer. He probably wasn't in a single fight for the first 19 years of his life.
Caiden019 ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 00:15:33 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
That's the passive ability I was talking about. Being influenced by the force without realizing it.
And? Fighting doesn't really translate into force ability.
FleshPrinceOfBelAir ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 01:40:18 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
It does translate into handling a lightsaber, though. But now, as I read your comment again, I realize that you're talking about telekinetically pulling the lightsaber, and not fighting with it.
But Luke gives you the answer directly in the movie:
That, to me, implies that Rey (and Kylo) are stronger with the force - at least while untrained - than Luke himself were as a teenager.
Caiden019 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 02:01:55 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I don't think that implys they are stronger than him, just generally strong. G-Canon still has Luke as the most powerful force user in history and Disney hasn't tried to change it.
B00rad ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 04:45:34 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
After the ending of TLD I can see how he might still be the most powerful force user but it certainly seems like Snoke was powerful than him. And Kylo and Rey seem to have more power but they aren't trained.
Caiden019 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 04:55:22 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Snoke was scared shitless of Luke. He makes it pretty clear in TFA that if Luke returned they were fucked. The only impressive thing Snoke did was create a force connection. Luke created a force projection across the galaxy.
Russelsteapot42 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 00:04:00 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Remember how she says that she's been in the tree with the books before?
She's clearly channeling some past life thing.
kollider13 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 00:05:41 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
So I guess this is more of a Force Awakens complaint than a Last Jedi complaint?
Caiden019 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 00:13:49 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
For the most part.
B00rad ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 04:36:28 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I think you're missing the point of Rey and Kylo. The point is that they are exponentially more powerful than any force users we've seen (except Snoke and maybe "the senate"). Things that should be difficult are easy for Rey. Kylo uses the force in ways we didn't even know were possible. Their insane power is an important part of their character.
Caiden019 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 05:00:21 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
They haven't done anything that tops Anakin, Yoda, Obi-Wan, Sidious, Windu, Vader, or Luke.
That's the issue.
He stops a blaster bolt. We haven't seen it before, but with our general knowledge of the force, it is well within the realm of possibility for a gifted force user.
Luke is still the most powerful force user in history. The canon hasn't been changed (yet).
Solidsnakemode ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 05:19:59 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
She has the books now bro. She is gonna a total expert by next film.
Caiden019 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 05:20:55 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Can't wait for Rey to become the equal of EU Luke. Force god here we come.
ArrrGaming ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 14:47:28 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Remember that time in TLJ where Luke nearly shits a brick about how powerful Rey is? Or did you not seeTLJ yet??
Backwater_Buccaneer ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 00:38:11 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Luke had an entire lecture about this in the movie itself, that apparently you missed the point of.
The idea that the power of the Force is limited to the specific religions of the Jedi and the Sith, rather than inherent in the Force of the universe, is vanity.
Yes, training accelerates the process, but it's not the source. The source is the Force itself.
Caiden019 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 00:40:53 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I don't think that was the point he was trying to make. I think he was talking about the idea behind Jedi and Sith to be fundamentally flawed. That the force is balance and no one side can claim it.
Backwater_Buccaneer ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 00:48:56 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
You're thinking too narrowly. The concept applies broadly. The Force is inherent in the universe itself, and the power it gives comes from the Force itself, not from Jedi or Sith teachings.
You gotta pay less attention to the fan theories of how these things work, and go by what the movies themselves tell you. It's all there for you to see if you pay attention instead of trying to apply your own rules to it.
Caiden019 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 00:57:43 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Well yeah. That has been a concept in Star Wars for a long time. But everyone, including the man you are referring to, needed guidance in the force to actively control it till now.
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 01:45:54 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
[removed]
Caiden019 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 01:54:23 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Luke needed guidance was on the screen.
Backwater_Buccaneer ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 01:57:44 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Rey is more of a natural than Luke.
Caiden019 ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 02:02:53 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I know. That's the issue. Her abilities come from nowhere.
Backwater_Buccaneer ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 06:13:09 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
No more so than Luke's or Anakin's.
Caiden019 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 06:23:27 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Anakin is a being born of the midiclorieans and Luke is his son. It's a dumb plot device, but its an explanation.
Backwater_Buccaneer ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 06:33:30 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
An explanation isn't needed. The "why" doesn't matter, and as we saw in the prequels a shitty explanation can actually detract from the story.
gaslightjoe ยท 86 points ยท Posted at 17:31:07 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I think you should be allowed to like the movie if you want, I accept that many people enjoy this film for many different reasons the same way that many of us donโt like the film for many different reasons. Also I donโt feel that the humor is the same as the previous films, Iโd welcome rogue one style humor not your mother jokes
johncarter10 ยท 62 points ยท Posted at 21:39:57 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Yes. The Rogue One humor was way more my style. TLJโs didnโt work at all for me.
Banjoe64 ยท 67 points ยท Posted at 00:22:50 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Rogue one humor was much more in tune with classic Star Wars. A bit more subtle and believeable. I๏ธ squinted my eyes at many of the lines in TLJ
WallScreamer ยท 15 points ยท Posted at 04:28:51 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Yeah, I noticed a trend that I also saw in Guardians of the Galaxy 2, where one character would speak dramatically for a minute, there'd be a pause, and then someone else would interject with a joke. It fit in a comedy like that, but in the case of TLJ, it just derailed all the scenes and took the drama out of everything. Jokes in Star Wars to me were always brief moments of comic relief that you smirked or chuckled at before getting back into the action. In The Last Jedi, they dominate the scenes and destroy any sense of tension. Compare "That's not how the force works!" to the gags in TLJ.
Banjoe64 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 04:33:32 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Itโs Marvel type humor... which is fine for those movies... I๏ธ quite enjoy guardians of the galaxy. But Star Wars is a different type of movie. I๏ธ still thought many of the jokes in TFA were somewhat forced but not on the level of TLJ.
Weltall548 ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 01:33:49 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Rogue One might be the funniest in the series
throwaway19473917 ยท 42 points ยท Posted at 22:55:08 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
There have been jokes throughout Star Wars, but I definitely agree that the humor in this movie felt different. There was so much more snarky little jokes in otherwise serious scenes that Made it feel kinda overkill to me. To me, Rogue One had the perfect amount of humor but also serious dramatic scenes, while in TLJ it just didn't feel that way.
Matthemus ยท 11 points ยท Posted at 00:27:28 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
This was the only issue I had too. Small humorous moments are common in the movies, but some of those moments felt so forced in TLJ.
Double pun intended.
It got to the point where I couldn't tell if Kylo is supposed to be making a joke when he's talking to Rey about her parents when he calls them trash like three times in a row.
[deleted] ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 02:20:56 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
The jokes were too much and too extreme.
LavenderGoomes ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 23:57:47 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I've seen this movie twice and I have no recollection of "your mother" jokes. Which joke was it?
gaslightjoe ยท 16 points ยท Posted at 00:04:19 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Poe just before he hangs up with hux says something about his mother, maybe not wanting to talk with him? Something like that
kogent-501 ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 00:44:32 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I must have missed the scene where kylo slays snoke not with a lightsaber but a sick yo momma joke
AceJon ยท 13 points ยท Posted at 01:52:57 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Did you miss the actual "and his mother" joke in TLJ?
kogent-501 ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 06:27:50 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
It apparently slipped my mind.
inFINN1te ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 04:32:37 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I'm half and half on the humor in Last Jedi. Some of it I was dying at. I laughed when Kylo yelled in the ATAT and then Hux just repeats him at the top of his lungs. Also got a lot out of Luke brushing his shoulder after getting shot up. That stuff was all funny to me. What I didn't like was the cutesy gag humor. Like BB8 piloting an ATST(I suck at vehicle names don't kill me) and the CGI midget rolling around in gold coins.
YojimboSon ยท 27 points ยท Posted at 22:31:49 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
The OT was a brand new thing, nobody was expecting to the level of depth or knowledge on the lore that we expect today. Weโve all pretty much grown up steeped in this universe. To treat a mysterious powerful figure like snoke in the same manner that the emperor was treated in the OT is a nice excuse, but a complete misread of the audience/fan base imo. They couldโve added in at least one line to explain things a bit. Iโm sure weโll be hearing more, and this will be fine once 9 is out, and will stand the test of time, just shitty for these 2 years.
oskopnir ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 17:59:49 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
The excuse that they treated him like the emperor in the OT makes no sense, because in this case there is a back story. They can't just ignore all the other movies and spawn this guy out of nowhere, just to kill him off because his role as placeholder for Ren is finished.
Ham_Sammich ยท 73 points ยท Posted at 20:32:55 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I, for one, haven't accepted Rey's Parents story. In episode VII, during her visions when she first encounters Luke's lightsaber, she has a vision of her younger self crying, while she watches a ship leaving Jakku. That doesn't lead me to believe that her parents sold her for drinking money, if they had a nice ship to leave the planet with.
I think it was either misdirection of Kylo to help motivate her to join him, or something that Snoke put into their mind to put all this into motion.
Artif3x_ ยท 34 points ยท Posted at 21:44:49 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
The door's open for Abrams to retcon that, if he wants, but I think Johnson's given the story inertia along a certain vector, and Abrams would have to turn that needle pretty far to make that work.
A-Bronze-Tale ยท 16 points ยท Posted at 23:27:49 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I mean, Johnson's movie has undone/changed/ignored a lot of things from TFA. I'm not saying Abrams will do the same, but who knows?
AceJon ยท 48 points ยท Posted at 01:51:50 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Has it? Or has it undone the fan theories that came out of TFA?
VTKajin ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 03:59:12 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
The foundations in TFA were poor. What Rian has done in TLJ can be undone but they're much more solid.
LitchedSwetters ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 17:32:57 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Exactly. TFA's questions were all fun: Who is Snoke? Who are Rey's parents? But those aren't deep questions that tell us things about the universe and the force. TLJ raises much more interesting questions like "how does the force affect everyone, not just the Skywalkers" and "how do you learn from your failures" and "what does it take to be a leader" and "how do you know if something is worth fighting for". To me, these questions are farrrr more interesting than the TV cliffhanger questions of TFA. I still like that movie but it doesn't seem to deepen the franchise in any way, it's kinda just a fun adventure story 30 years after RotJ. TLJ on the other hand is taking themes that have always been in Star Wars, mainly failure, and expanding on them and taking it to new heights. Could some of those storylines be streamlined into a tighter film? Absolutely, but the backbone of this film is just as strong as the backbone in the prequels and it executes it's ideas far better than the prequels did. TLJ is not a perfect movie, but when you look how the questions it's asking directly correlate to how it treats it's characters (the theme of the film literally drives the character arcs), this is the most mature and daring Star Wars movie since Empire. Best movie since Empire? I think RotJ/RotS still hold that spot but TLJ is a crazy good addition to the universe. I'm so glad we get to discuss these deeper meanings rather than more of the thin "what's this character's backstory" questions we got with TFA
I_Fail_At_Life444 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 06:35:24 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Thank you. So many of the problems with this trilogy started with TFA.
VTKajin ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 06:46:44 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
A lot of people I've talked to who didn't like TLJ would've rather had Rian do the entire trilogy than have JJ start. I liked TFA but so many people's problems with TLJ are actually with TFA.
Gholer ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 01:26:36 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I think it would be really easy to introduce her true family.
Artif3x_ ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 14:57:11 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I do also, but not if her family is one of the named families from the OS. Doing so would gut the theme of TLJ, and judging by Johnson's and Abrams's supposed level of communication during the production of TLJ, I don't think Abrams will go that route.
Now, if they decide to introduce her parents as completely new characters...there's something I think is not only possible, but likely.
Practicalaviationcat ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 23:36:42 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Well Johnson already turned the needle pretty far. I don't see why JJ can't do the same.
Artif3x_ ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 15:03:57 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I think it's a case of not pulling the same trick twice. It would be like repeating the same joke more than once. It wouldn't be received well.
jjack339 ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 03:47:40 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
yep. the door is still open. It would be very plausible for her to find out who they really were and they just say Ben lied.
It reminds me in game of thrones when Danaenarys is convinced she cant have kids. Then Jon snow ask "who told you that?" She says "the witch who killed my husband" Jon then replies "That does not sound like the most reliable source of information"
Same applies here.
๐๏ธ tyrannustyrannus ยท 31 points ยท Posted at 20:37:09 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
she says they are nobodies before Kylo does
Ham_Sammich ยท 35 points ยท Posted at 21:00:24 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Hmmm, I remember Ben pushing her into that line of thinking.
copernicuslanding ยท 11 points ยท Posted at 02:54:22 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
people tend to dismiss this when making the โrey said who her parents areโ argument. this is important.
jace255 ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 03:10:20 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
True, but neither character has authoritative knowledge of the truth. And there are logical inconsistencies in the story that Rey's parents lived and died as Jakku locals.
Rey's vision of a ship leaving doesn't add up. Either her parents sold her and left the planet, and therefore didn't die on Jakku, or the people they sold her to immediately left her on Jakku. Why would they buy her and immediately abandon her?
My own theory is that Kylo wanted Rey to believe that her worst fears about her parents were true, so she would be more vulnerable to the idea of joining him in that moment.
YojimboSon ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 02:48:52 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Yea I mean thatโs not definitive whatsoever. Pretty much exactly what you would say trying to cover something to an interrogator. One of those lines that seems to convince us, but is light weight and can easily be twisted.
drumdeity ยท 14 points ยท Posted at 00:25:44 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I haven't watched TFA in a while, but I don't think the parents were necessarily the owners of that ship... It could be a bus, taxi, or something similar
Gholer ยท 13 points ยท Posted at 01:29:03 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Kylo said her parents were buried in a pauper's grave on Jakku. This isn't really what seems to happen in the force vision given to Rey when she touches the lightsaber. There is a ship taking off into the atmosphere. This would imply that she was left there by them for another reason.
YojimboSon ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 02:51:09 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
The force vision was not perfectly accurate in a few ways, but I agree, anyone that thinks her past is resolved is off their rocker.
Apocabutts ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 02:03:56 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I wouldn't mind another answer to this one (as long as it's not too convoluted), but I would rather focus on who Rey has chosen to become going forward. I felt like TFA focused on her past, TLJ focused on who she is, and hopefully EPIX will focus on who she will become.
MastrPrototypee ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 03:26:57 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
When I rewatched TFA the other week before TLJ, the ship that flies away from Jakku and young Rey looks very similar to the First Order transports that are also used in TFA. Could just be coincidence, but who really knows?
Gholer ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 01:25:46 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Same. I didn't buy that story from Ben at all.
StrictlyFilthyCasual ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 20:51:20 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I think we're going to have to chalk that one up to a new director wanting to do things his way, and not particularly caring what was established in the previous movie.
Gholer ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 03:05:33 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
You don't think Kylo's nature would be to try and mislead Rey into thinking she might have nowhere to go?
StrictlyFilthyCasual ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 03:08:21 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
She's the one who first says they're nobodies. He's not misleading her.
RaiderofTuscany ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 03:50:35 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Like someone else said previously he does push her gently in that direction previous to that, but im sure weโll see it resolved in the next one
sortiv ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 02:55:50 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I've heard the ship argument multiple times. The problem is, just because they're on that ship doesn't mean it's their ship. They could have been dead broke and sold Rey just to scrounge together enough credits to buy their way onto some expedition off world where they tried to scavenge, etc. They might have returned years later, penniless and defeated, completely forgetting or not caring about or just unable to find or care for the daughter they left behind. And so they end up dead on Jakku, never reunited with Rey and maybe never wanting to be reunited.
So again, just because Rey's parents are on that ship doesn't mean they own it or that they're wealthy.
ItsABiscuit ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 02:55:51 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
That was the space bus. They were off to spend their coin at the local dive.
starwars_and_guns ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 03:51:42 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Yup. I'm reminded of ESB, when Vader tells Luke he is his father. In ROTJ, George Lucas had Yoda confirm this to Luke, on the evidence that viewers needed to believe what the bad guy was saying.
I firmly believe Kylo was lying as a subversion to this trope and in Episode 9 that will be revealed.
FinishTheSente ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 04:21:37 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Agreed. I think the whole Snoke thing was done very cleverly. If they do another trilogy, they can tie Snoke's identity and origin into that one, making it seam together better.
There's more to Rey's parents though, no doubt.
GoodGrades ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 05:17:47 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
This would kill the message of TLJ though
2-3uv ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 12:30:57 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
came here to say that
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 13:25:18 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
And after that vision, Maz, who apparently has an answer for everything, tells Rey that whoever she's waiting for, they're not coming back. To me this was a clear indication that her parents were nobodies and in line with the theme of TLJ: let the past die.
buddhabash ยท 142 points ยท Posted at 17:51:16 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
You and many people are totally missing the point of a lot of people's frustration with snoke. I don't care who he was or where he came from, and that's not what I'm upset about. What I am upset about is that they established this character to be an all-powerful, all knowledgeable master of the dark side and leader of the mighty first order.
How can they just kill him off in a way that makes him look so foolish and weak?
This is a man who brought the powerful Kylo ren to a knee just from a hologram and had him cowering in fear, a man who can manipulate people with the force without even being there in person.
And we're supposed to accept that he wouldn't have seen Kylo turning that saber to him? I don't buy it for a second and it totally ruined that character. Complete waste in my opinion.
spinky342 ยท 41 points ยท Posted at 18:25:30 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I agree with a lot of criticisms of the movie but at least they attempted to explain the killing of snoke and how kylo's thoughts were tricking him.
ominousgraycat ยท 61 points ยท Posted at 19:02:34 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Sith rarely see the inevitable betrayal of their apprentices coming. Palpatine did not sense how close Vader was coming to betraying him, and Snoke was focusing too much energy on Rey to notice what Kylo Ren was doing, and so he didn't have enough time to react before it was too late and that blade was extending.
Wh0_The_Fuck_Cares ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 03:17:28 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
He has ears. He should be able to hear a rusty af saber rattling around on a metal chair right next to time.
๐๏ธ tyrannustyrannus ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 19:39:47 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
good point!
Artif3x_ ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 22:12:09 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Snoke just slapped Rey around with that same lightsaber, and he was narrating Kylo's thoughts in real time when he was killed!
ominousgraycat ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 22:29:56 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Apparently he wasn't reading Kylo's mind well-enough, as most Sith don't. And regardless of what he was doing with the lightsaber before, that's not where his attention was. How else can a sith master fail other than letting his guard down for a moment? In a way, I think that's how they all failed.
Artif3x_ ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 15:31:36 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
That's just it, everything in that scene was telling us Snoke wasn't distracted, or letting his guard down. He was laser-focused on Kylo's mind at the moment of his death; narrating Kylo's thoughts aloud. The idea that Kylo could pull off a stunt like igniting the saber through that kind of scrutiny just makes no sense.
maglen69 ยท -2 points ยท Posted at 23:10:35 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
When I brought up the Rule of Two in a good way this sub bashed me by saying Snoke and Ren weren't Sith.
Can't have it both ways.
ominousgraycat ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 23:14:34 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Ah, well I agree with you. Snoke probably had some sort of Rule of Two thing going on here, and even if Ren didn't consider himself a Sith, that doesn't mean Snoke didn't. Will Ren keep with the Rule of 2? I don't know, but I think it is pretty hard to deny that Kylo Ren was functionally an apprentice of Snoke from some time before the beginninf of TFA until a certain point in TLJ.
[deleted] ยท 28 points ยท Posted at 19:08:03 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
It doesnโt make him look foolish and weak. Watch it again. Snoke canโt read thoughts, only intentions. Kylo Ren is the big bad. Now we have an unhinged half a Sith in control of a major military force with no plan or discipline. How can you not love that?!?!
buddhabash ยท 23 points ยท Posted at 19:22:36 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Oh, I love everything about Kylo. I think he's a great character and they did an excellent job with his development in this movie. I'm just disappointed in Snoke's uninspiring death
Defguru ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 01:05:27 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Same. While I heavily enjoyed Kylo Ren in both movies, and look forward to him in Episode IX, I would have liked Snoke, too, lol.
GARRGHGANhunter ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 03:55:23 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Snokeโs death was a huge part of Kyloโs character development. He was a essentially just a foil to Kylo and was ultimately unimportant to plot in either move. He served his purpose, I just donโt get why a bunch of people need to see him be super powerful and involved, Kylo is clearly the important antagonist here and his death directly fed into making him a more interesting character.
Artif3x_ ยท 9 points ยท Posted at 22:09:57 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
What I am worried about happening with Kylo in place as Ep. 9's Big Bad is that his character is so wonderfully conflicted most of the time that he'll not be able to fill the slot of the main antagonist. You can't have a Big Bad who's waffling on whether to be bad or not, and I didn't see anything in his actions after he refused to torpedo his mother that led me to believe that inner conflict had been banished by his attack on Snoke. If anything, that killing of Snoke could be seen as a redeeming act! His fight against Skywalker was too tied up in their old baggage to represent his passage into the pure dark side.
It feels to me like we're going into a very difficult script for Abrams to write. If I were him, I'd be looking for an overarching reason for all these dark side personalities to keep popping up and being so powerful, and introduce the audience to something new. Snoke's past is a fertile place to find something like that.
sweatpantswarrior ยท 10 points ยท Posted at 00:47:04 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Kylo is being set up to lose control of the FO to Hux. Hux is a zealot. We're seeing what I hope is set up for Hux to take over from Kylo and watch the FO become more than he can control, such that even he is sickened by what he sees.
It preserves the conflict within him as he watches his actions come to their natural conclusion.
Artif3x_ ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 15:02:34 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
You know, I was thinking along the same lines today. Kylo's just usurped power, and while Hux is saying, "The supreme leader is dead. Long live the supreme leader," they've spent two movies showing how much Kylo and Hux hate each other. I'm expecting Hux to use the shock of Snoke's death to try and wrest power away from Kylo and install himself as the new Leader. I doubt we'll see them cooperating much in Ep. 9.
Again, that doesn't make for a very good Big Bad. Distracted, infighting enemies are weak. Ep. 9 needs a powerful, focused, purposeful villain, and unless they just glaze over the power transition, I don't see how Kylo can be it.
Oyul ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 23:00:56 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Eh, to me I donโt think thatโs interesting at all. Snoke doesnโt need an explanation. Weโve seen hundreds of characters like him in fantasy stories - we already saw this character in the OT. I donโt think weโd gain anything from his backstory. We certainly didnโt glean anything interesting from Palpatineโs backstory: an evil old fuck gets more evil and hella ugly, the end. Snoke was just another device TFA used to reference back to the OT to make people feel nostalgic. People complained about that and now complain when the new movie makes a point of its departure from the old tropes. Seems to me you could do a lot with a character like Kylo, no reason to think that theyโve written themselves into a corner. Honestly, a protagonist/antagonist like Kylo is a million times more interesting than another big bad overlord.
Artif3x_ ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 15:24:50 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Oh, I'll agree Kylo's the best thing about the new series. He's my favorite character by far, and I'm excited to see him take more of the spotlight in Ep. 9. I'll go so far as to say he's the only new character that's interesting. You need a certain type of character to be the main antagonist, and Kylo doesn't fit that mold...yet.
Kylo needs to tap into something bigger to amp up his threat level. He's just not that much of a danger in his current state. Sure, he's in control (if Hux doesn't oust him at the first opportunity) of the First Order, but Hux could do that just as well, and wouldn't be nearly as indecisive about squashing the Resistance.
He's not even a threat to Rey, who's shown an absurd level of competence in anything she tries, including beating him in a lightsaber duel with zero training. Yawn. Just sit back and watch Rey's magical expertise solve everything. Deus ex. Sorry, Kylo, you lose.
Give me uber-Kylo. I want him tapping into what made all these other dudes so damned potent. Where's the Sith books? Let's watch Kylo pull a warship out of the air with the Force. Let's see some red eyes on him! Make me believe there's no way Rey can take him (gotta lol at that, given her absurd skill level).
noble77 ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 08:54:56 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Because Kyle is honestly a little bitch. Not likeable one bit. Seems like just about everyone in this movie was so whiny now that I think about it.
Artif3x_ ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 22:03:05 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
You're right. Snoke went out like a punk after a major display of force power, surrounded by guards trained to deal specifically with close combat threats to his person, and after he said Kylo's mind was completely open to him. That's the issue I have. I have no issue with the events themselves, just the technical details of how the script was structured.
If we posted a "how should Snoke have died" thread, how many minutes would it be until someone posted a better way to resolve that scene?
A-Bronze-Tale ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:23:09 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
The OP could probably come up with it fairy easily if such a post came up. I refuse to believe that even those that liked the movie thought the writing was a strong point.
amishlatinjew ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 00:47:32 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
The movie was meh to me. Good moments and bad moments.
But I was fine with how they killed Snoke.
TBH, the writing has never been the strong suit of star wars. If you talk to people that don't like the movies for reasons other than "they're weird" one of the biggest complaints is plot holes, lazy writing, and forced drama.
If I want good writing in Star Wars, I'll read the books. The movies have never really offered it. But they offer great visuals and a manageable plot.
jdawg254 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 04:39:19 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Do they have any new canon books really? ive done some looking all I see are re writes of the movies.
amishlatinjew ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 06:28:14 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Once the announced the books weren't cannon anymore after Disney bought Star Wars, I stopped looking. So I'm sorry, I don't know.
I know that revan, Bane trilogy, plagueis, and grey jedi books were amazingly well written. And I'll always have them.
Artif3x_ ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 15:13:25 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
One thing I've noticed from the people who liked-to-loved the movie, even among the professional critics, is that they focus on the Jedi plotlines. I agree those parts of the movie were pretty damn good, with lots of needed surprises for both new and old fans. There were some problems in the details (like Snoke's death), but for the most part, the quality was really high.
What they don't say is, "Wow, that Canto Bight subplot really made the movie for me!" or, "Rose is the best Star Wars character, ever!" In short, they're cherry-picking; focusing on what they liked about the movie and shuffling the glaring missteps of the movie off to the side and pretending they don't exist, like going to a party and finding your ex is also there, so you spend your time on the opposite side of the room (but what a great party!).
Give me the reviews that lay out what genius the space-chase was, or how Finn and Rose's plot was a masterwork of scriptwriting. Take the movie as a whole, make the case, and still put a "5 of 5 stars!!!" rating on it. Do it with a straight face. Maybe then I'll have some respect for the result.
BaggierBag ยท 22 points ยท Posted at 17:55:35 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
How could they kill off the Emperor by just panhandling him and throwing him down a pit by his own apprentice, making him look foolish and weak?
buddhabash ยท 56 points ยท Posted at 18:53:03 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Fair point, to which the counter argument is Vader had served palpatine with excellence for 20+ years and he had no reason to doubt Vader at all. It's what made Vader's return to the light so climactic.
Snoke spent 1.5 movies berating Kylo for being so "conflicted" and how much pull to the light he sensed in him. He had reason to be wary and still fell for such a simple trick
flies_with_owls ยท 20 points ยท Posted at 20:42:17 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
To be fair, he has been SUPER gaslighting Ren for multiple years and had basically manipulated events up until the very moment he was killed. Everything until the second that Ren turned the blade on him was a calculated part of his plan. He would have no reason to doubt the follow through.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 11:44:58 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Exactly. Vader was loyal to the Empire to a fault. Kylo is only loyal to himself. The FO to him is just a weaponized extension of the anger he feels at everything.
xtra_ore ยท 36 points ยท Posted at 19:40:49 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Also, Palpatine was clearly lost in the pleasure he was getting from torturing Luke and Vader hadn't responded to the first couple of calls for help from Luke too.
I_Fail_At_Life444 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 06:32:57 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
And Snoke was lost in the pleasure of seeing one of two major threats to himself about to be snuffed out and his total domination of those around him. The look on Snoke's face as he thinks Ben is about to kill Rey is almost...orgasmic. He's getting off on his power trip. And it's his undoing. I loved it. Pride, hubris, arrogance.
CmdrMobium ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 21:22:33 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Snoke explained that he stoked Ben's conflict purposefully to make Rey believe he could be redeemed. During that scene, Snoke released Kylo from his influence and so expected him to be entirely dark.
[deleted] ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 19:26:35 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
BaggierBag ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 20:09:40 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Doesn't that kind of prove my point? The Emperor was the "final boss" of the WHOLE trilogy without having any backstory. Snoke was killed in the second movie setting up Kylo Ren as the main antagonist for the third movie. Now, if Kylo dies at the end of IX, it will mean more for the trilogy now that we saw him go from whiny wanna-be to evil bastard.
idrawshapes ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 01:00:14 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
But why is he a bad guy NOW? Why was it that he didn't want to kill Leia before but now he does?
apgtimbough ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 02:39:21 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
He's unstable and he's conflicted. Vader was trying to kill Luke moments before saving his life. Anakin went from reporting who Sidious was to murdering children in an afternoon and went from trying to save Padme to nearly choking her to death in like a two minute span.
Artif3x_ ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:20:21 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Vader was half machine. That lack of organic mass made him uniquely qualified to handle a heavy dose of lightning from the Emperor and toss him into that hole. Luke couldn't have done it, as we could see by what that lighting was doing to him. Palpatine tried to lightning the crap out of Vader, and Vader took a ton of it and was still able to lift Palpatine up and drop him down that shaft. The scene and the story demanded that it be Vader. The irony was that Palpatine made the suit to torture Vader, and it gave him the tools to end Palpatine's life.
Very neat and tidy story work.
hulibuli ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 05:52:42 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Also the fact that he was saving his goddamn son, tossing all worries for his personal wellbeing aside.
If panicking mother can lift a car to save their kid in full adrenaline rush, I can accept Vader tossing the Emperor into the sin bin.
Banjoe64 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 00:32:23 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
That scene was MUCH more climactic than Snokeโs death
VTKajin ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 04:14:18 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Because it was the end of the trilogy and everything was leading up to that moment. Snoke's death is more of a game changer than a culmination, and that's okay.
Banjoe64 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 04:29:54 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
His point was that Snokes death wasnโt any sillier than the emperors. My point was that the emperors death was climactic and snokes was not. It felt... hollow? Idk. Seemed like a waste and a silly way to die
VTKajin ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 04:31:43 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I mean, if you think so, that's that. Different perspectives and opinions are inevitable and totally valid.
creepyeyes ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 06:26:09 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
They didn't have the Emperor's corpse make a funny face though...
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 11:47:25 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Death is not glamorous
fleakill ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 03:07:51 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
It was more that he completely underestimated Kylo Ren just as Luke did, and both paid a price.
hansleftleg ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 19:54:38 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
How do you know Snoke has really gone? I strongly suspect we haven't heard the last of him.
RossSpecter ยท 27 points ยท Posted at 21:44:55 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I'm really hoping that long held shot of his corpse with the tongue stuck out means that he's very dead and will not come back.
This movie put so much work into setting Kylo as the head of the FO, and to have Snoke come back would completely undermine that.
hansleftleg ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 22:05:17 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Depends how he comes back. I'm not suggesting he strolls back in all sewn up and is still in charge. Could be a force ghost type situation. Maybe he can take the force ghost thing even further and occupy another body. Maybe he's done this many times before. Maybe this is all part of his plan. I guess what it comes down to is that I'm NOT OK with this aspect of the story if he's never mentioned again. It would seriously diminish my enjoyment of the new trilogy...maybe to the point of tainting it beyond repair. And I can't believe that will be the case. For an epic space fantasy that is all about the lore of the Jedi and Sith, to have a super-strong force wielding being (who has apparently been around the block) to just be killed off with no further explanation is unthinkable to me. Surely he'll either be back in some form, or we'll find out some information that explains what the heck he was all about.
ryner1228 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 05:29:44 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I don't think he was all powerful. He was manipulative. The scene where kylo brings Rey to snoke he says something like " I knew you would do that,I intentionally confused you and linked you two together". That for me felt like a straight up lie. Theyve already establish the guy as manipulative and he said something like this afterward which is suspicious and Kylo was already confused,easy call Snoke. Also, the connection between the two kept going after his death which I find suspicious. There is also the thing where he says exactly what Kylo does as he does it like he is actually reading his mind or whatever. It Felt like a bad magic trick to me.
Tri_77 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 06:43:08 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I thought that having Ren kill him was at least one outcome he had planned for. The whole movie, and I think TFA as well, he is constantly berating Ren for having a pull to the light side of the force. By having him murder his master, Ren fully bought into the sith rule of two and fully embraced the dark side.
Snokes endgame was never extremely clear, but to me it seemed like he wanted to make the dark side of the force as strong as possible and every outcome from the encounter in his throne room would lead to that. Kylo killing Rey and still following snoke is a favourable outcome, as they will have the means to kill Luke then and then they are the only two force users left. The same is true if snoke had seen his attack and killed both Rey and Kylo, as then he is still the most powerful dark side force user and also can kill Luke. The third option is how the movie played out and like I said before it is the sith rule of two in action.
submortimer ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 08:38:23 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Foolish? No.
Weak? Certainly not.
Enough hubris to kill an elephant? Oh yeah.
Snoke fell into the same trap that Palpatine did: he knew what was going to happen.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 13:27:38 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I get that frustration but I don't think it was a waste. From a storytelling perspective, Snoke only existed to drive Kylo's character forward. In dying, he did more to develop that villain than if he had stayed alive. He served his purpose and died in true Sith fashion
Dragshisballsz ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 21:05:42 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
he believed himself to be unbeatable and was so arrogant that he couldnt see his apprentice betraying him right in front of his eyes. they had a good idea but they shouldve given him some more backstory through something like characters talking about how he raised the first order or gained so much power.
๐๏ธ tyrannustyrannus ยท -3 points ยท Posted at 18:11:52 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
You're speaking in terms that either I have to understand your point or I'm dead wrong.
People have gotten mad when I've compared him to Palpatine, but they are almost interchangeable between ESB/RoTJ and TFA/TLJ. I never once cared or felt like I needed Palpatine's backstory.
He dies almost the exact same way as Palpatine - He's gloating that he won and he's killed by his apprentice while torturing the hero.
buddhabash ยท 19 points ยท Posted at 18:49:06 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Again, I'll repeat myself here, I don't care about snoke's backstory. I don't feel like you need palpatine's in the OT. I say it again because you mentioned it again in your second paragraph.
And in regard to your first sentence, I feel like people don't understand the point. That's the frustration. It has nothing to do with his backstory. The execution was poor. And it's not directly comparable to the Emperor's death either. Vader found the light inside himself. Kylo just flat out betrayed him.
And given Snoke's constant berating of Kylo and how much conflict he supposedly sensed in him you'd think he would have seen this coming. Emperor had the utmost faith in Vader
๐๏ธ tyrannustyrannus ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 18:53:51 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I get what you are saying I just don't agree with you
buddhabash ยท 9 points ยท Posted at 18:58:48 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Fair enough
_Knightmare_ ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 21:32:20 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Kylo had also given Snoke some reasons to trust him. Kylo killed Han Solo and supposedly brought Rey to Snoke. Not to mention that Snoke was arrogant (which has probably been mentioned here before).
Artif3x_ ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:14:43 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
And again, you're right. Snoke was clearly threatened by his apprentice Kylo to never have an audience with him without his cadre of Jedi-killers in tow. Those guys even drew weapons on Kylo at one point to prove they meant business.
1-123581385321-1 ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 21:59:10 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Kylo was clear in his thoughts, there was no more conflict in him. Snoke says he can sense that Kylo is about to strike down his enemy, he just never considers it might be him.
nutsotic ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 18:09:53 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
How was Sidious death any better? He was tossed down a hole.
๐๏ธ tyrannustyrannus ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 18:32:11 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
and literally did nothing to defend himself
le_GoogleFit ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 19:39:21 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Vader died because he was electrocuted by Sidious while killing him
๐๏ธ tyrannustyrannus ยท -3 points ยท Posted at 19:42:27 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
yeah but it didn't stop Vader from throwing him in the hole
JahWontPayTheBills33 ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 23:34:47 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
How is that the same as โdid nothingโ? Iโm starting to really not like your logic, youโre sketchy
VTKajin ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 04:15:47 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Well, surely Sidious could've done something more. But Lucas retroactively made him a great character. He wasn't all that originally.
sweatpantswarrior ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 23:53:48 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
And yet Palpatine's backstory was unknown until almost 2 decades had passed from RotJ's release. That's NEVER been a complaint against that film.
What changed?
Because he WAS foolish.
He beat his dog and the dog finally snapped.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubris
buddhabash ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 00:31:04 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Can you people read at all? For the third time, I DO NOT CARE what Snoke's backstory is, nor palpatine's in the OT. I don't even have an issue with Kylo killing snoke. I just think the delivery was weak and uninspiring. It's my opinion and the opinion of many others here. If you don't agree, that's fine
sweatpantswarrior ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 00:49:20 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Having a opinion doesn't make it free from examination. I get it: you're upset that Snoke read the entire situation and had the players wrong. That bothers you because you think it should have been something more, as if Snoke is so powerful that he deserved a different death. Snoke thought so too, and look where it got him.
Whitesofa ยท 181 points ยท Posted at 19:01:50 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Itโs funny.
You start out telling people to accept that you like it and that no one is wrong then then go ahead and subtly tell everyone they are wrong.
Maybe people do not need to see it again or look in the right place. Maybe they just didn't like it and you should accept that.
Brio_ ยท 65 points ยท Posted at 23:44:58 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
This is what people who like the movie on reddit do. They complain about people who don't like it telling them what they should think, then tell people who don't like it what they should think.
streetsbehind28 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 15:18:35 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Not that you're generalizing
MisterArrogant ยท 23 points ยท Posted at 03:14:23 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I was going to point out the same thing:
TL;DR - We all just have different opinions... nobody's wrong. (Now here's paragraph after paragraph of why you're all wrong!)
Such a brave hot take. I'm glad someone was finally able to speak up and get this off their chest because we certainly don't have pages and pages of the exact same posts over the last several days.
ryner1228 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 05:18:45 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I think the argument he makes is valid. Because its fine if the movie wasnt to your taste, but don't make an argument trying to bring the movie down when everything made sense.
The film team took a lot of time figuring everything out to make sure that everything made sense considering all 8 previous movies. Therefore I believe most things people point at are chooses the team made, not mistakes.
You can argue on these chooses but its kind of hard 'cause it would change most if not all of the movie. And that is great. It means the movie ties everything together. It is why the movie is rated 95% on rotten tomatoes. It has depth and complexity, yet its quite enjoyable and easy to listen.
Whitesofa ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 13:51:11 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
All fair.
Someone down voted you but you are trying to make a reasonable point so have an upvote.
๐๏ธ tyrannustyrannus ยท -18 points ยท Posted at 19:07:37 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
You took that out of context. I said my opinion changed the second time I saw it. I don't know what to tell you if you didn't like it. I can see that point of view on Luke's Character because I initially didn't like it. Maybe I wasn't clear.
If you don't like TLJ fine, I just want to discuss it without being told I'm in denial
Whitesofa ยท 41 points ยท Posted at 19:12:14 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I didn't take it out of context.
Maybe people do not need to see it again to change their opinion. Maybe once is enough for them.
๐๏ธ tyrannustyrannus ยท -14 points ยท Posted at 19:16:15 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
cutting and pasting one sentence from a paragraph is literally taking it out of context, but whatever.
I didn't tell anyone their opinion is invalid if they don't see it again. I'm just saying my opinion on parts of the movie changed the second time I saw it. maybe I was unclear
Whitesofa ยท 25 points ยท Posted at 19:39:57 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Cutting and pasting only highlights where to look. The entire post is above to read.
But that's fair. It is not easy to always get your point across the same to every single person on a message board. Someone like me may take it in a way you did not mean.
The-Arrow-of-Time ยท 16 points ยท Posted at 21:55:32 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
You are a such an idiot wow.
NordJitsu ยท -15 points ยท Posted at 19:08:38 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
He said thereโs all kinds of valid reasons to dislike it but he doesnโt agree that Reyโs training is one of those valid reasons. Heโs allowed to have opinions about other peopleโs opinions.
And I agree with him.
Whitesofa ยท 34 points ยท Posted at 19:10:37 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
telling someone they need to see it again is not accepting their opinion. It is saying they are wrong and if they view it again they may understand.
He can have his opinion but others can have theirs too.
NordJitsu ยท -9 points ยท Posted at 19:14:05 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Of course. And heโs allowed to have an opinion about your opinion. He listed a bunch of reasons where heโll โagree to disagreeโ, like Snokeโs backstory. But thereโs some things he doesnโt agree are good reasons not to like it. Thatโs okay.
What if I said, โIf you want to say you donโt like apples for their flavor or texture, fine, but donโt tell me theyโre not nutritious.โ
Whitesofa ยท 24 points ยท Posted at 19:20:10 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
That's all fine. I never said he cannot have his opinion.
But don't tell people no one wrong and to accept all opinions and then say, if you think X then you need to watch again or you need to look in the right place.
NealKenneth ยท 136 points ยท Posted at 16:14:22 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Where it really goes too far is when people act like the reaction wasn't even mixed and that people who disliked it are just a few very vocal EU fans and a fleet of bots with fake reviews.
drod2015 ยท 43 points ยท Posted at 21:51:03 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I did some math in another thread.
TLJ User ratings...
You can average all of these ratings out to 7.24/10.
For comparison, the same math gets you...
Even disregarding the possibility that the second biggest sample size for TLJ has had some tampering via bots, I'd say overall acceptance of TLJ isn't too far off. Especially for an entry that makes some bold moves in an otherwise pretty traditional saga.
Edit:
Adding ratings for the prequels and R1 for completion's sake (and for /u/NealKenneth)
What's really interesting is that ROTS was averaging 7.6 till I added RT's data. That brought it down to 6.2. I think the vast majority of people would rate ROTS over AOTC. Goes to show the data may not align with public opinion, especially on a film that handles sensitive subject matter.
Drunoctis ยท 16 points ยท Posted at 23:17:32 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Not sure what you're saying but all i know is that IMDb is huge and uses their own scoring algorithm for a reason. They know shady voting is a thing so they have some kind of filtering for new accounts that only voted once, or keep giving 1 stars maybe? We don't really know the actual process but still it has to be the best way to see audience actual reaction.
NealKenneth ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 21:55:20 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
It's scoring a full point lower on average than the worst of the four that you did the math on, which is significant. How did the prequels and Rogue One score by the same metrics?
Also I can't help but notice that, the larger the sample size, the lower the score is. If these ratings are being brigaded by people who have a negative opinion, wouldn't the opposite be true?
Drunoctis ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 23:10:23 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
"The larger the sample size, the lower the score is"
That's not true at all? What?
UnknownFiddler ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 22:11:47 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Lots of the negative posts are from bots, which explains the very very high number of reviews.
maglen69 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:05:32 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
This is highly suspected ( and probably true) but hasn't been proven yet.
NealKenneth ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 22:23:58 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Very cool of you to do the math and update your post, good work! However I disagree with your analysis.
The ratings would seem to show that this film is being rated closer on average to the prequels than the original trilogy. That on it's own would be confirmation that reviews are genuinely mixed.
But here's the killing blow, which I didn't explain too well before.
If I was someone running fake bots review accounts: I would target the smaller pools. 1000 fake reviews has a lot more impact on a rating that only has 5000 reviews versus 1000 fake reviews on a rating that had over a 100000.
Therefore, if the theory were true, you would expect to see the ratings with smaller pools having a lower score. In fact, the opposite is true. The lower the amount of reviews, the higher the score.
So essentially there is greater evidence for fake positive reviews than fake negative reviews. Not that I believe there really is more than a handful of either!
drod2015 ยท 10 points ยท Posted at 22:32:00 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
But TLJ's lowest score comes from the lowest sample size (Metacritic, 4.8/10, 3,520 ratings) and the highest score comes from the highest sample size (IMDB, 7.8/10, 144,151 ratings).
jdawg254 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 04:30:33 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
If you look at rotten tomatoes though it got a pretty rough audience score, Im not saying one is right over the other
-Edited removed sentence about one site as you used more than one.
Caliwroth ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 09:49:46 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
This is a really great comment, thanks! I too noticed that when you look across multiple platforms it's not that far off the standard. Sure it's closer to the Prequels, but the way news articles talk about 'extreme backlash' you would think it was getting 1/10 across the board.
discobob1 ยท 31 points ยท Posted at 20:13:34 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Well...they are in the heavy minority, and there is a lot of bot manipulation going on. Just go look at the IMDB score. It's sitting at a 7.8 with the vast majority of votes at 8, 9, or 10. Then it tapers off gradually to 2. Then a huge jump at 1. A 1? Really? Then ALL of the "most helpful" reviews are all 1-3 stars. All of them. Again. Really? There's some botting/brigading going on.
endlessmeow ยท 37 points ยท Posted at 21:18:51 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Or people are voicing their opinions? I might just create a RT account to add my negative rating as well and share my thoughts.
AngryAlt1 ยท 42 points ยท Posted at 23:29:47 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Hot take: While obviously it's perfectly reasonable to dislike this movie, calling it a 1/10 is fucking delusional.
thespichopat ยท 12 points ยท Posted at 05:29:16 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
And calling it 10/10 isn't? It's not about objective ratings. It's about how people enjoyed the movie. If I experienced utter disappointment I would probably give it 1/10. I bet the movie ruined some people's days.
Just FYI, I gave it a 7 on the first day.
AngryAlt1 ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 05:38:46 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
10/10 is a bit out there too, sure. But, I can't help but be a lot more tolerant/sympathetic for people who get hyped and excited about a thing they like, compared to people who get upset and insulted about a thing they didn't like. Like, if they hated the movie that much that it ruined their day and they need to vent for hours, maybe there's something else at play?
They have the right to rate and say whatever they want, but I have the right to think they're a miserable pain in the ass.
discobob1 ยท 27 points ยท Posted at 21:47:01 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
There's certainly some of that, but that doesn't explain why the vast majority of IMDB users apparently like (or love) the film, yet literally all of the "helpful" comments are laughably negative and overly dramatic. And don't get me started on the fact that many of those reviews were posted days before the movie even premiered. I know because I looked them up on Tuesday/Wednesday out of curiosity.
-RMNZR- ยท -2 points ยท Posted at 23:37:02 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
It premiered on the 13th here in Norway, and most of what I've seen on IMBb is dated 14th? Get your facts straight :)
EDIT: Recon I'm getting downvoted because I was "rude", but honestly, I'm just pointing out the fact that the movie premiered in some countries on the 13th, so I don't understand what's wrong with reviews being posted on the 14th.
thrillho145 ยท 15 points ยท Posted at 23:24:11 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Do you think TLJ is really a 1? Cos that's ridiculous
kmoros ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 04:05:58 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Nobody's opinion is seriously a 1/10. They are only voting as such to drag down the average.
Nzash ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 00:33:13 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Yeah yeah, Russia and the hacker known as 4chan are behind the movie having bad scores on imdb, RT and metacritic.
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 21:35:22 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I think people are very upset and leaving an extra negative review to try to get the attention of the people who can change the direction of IX.
However, I'm willing to bet Disney and everyone involved are not going to let negative reviews affect their gravy train. There's likely serious botting or collusion with IMDB to keep the score above terrible without being seen as clearly fake.
I thought it was a 4/10 Star Wars film a 7.5/10 individual film should it have been outside the established universe. But it is Star Wars and it's stopped me from finishing the Aftermath books and lose all hope for the series. It's just depressing now and I totally would have rated it a 2/10 on IMDB to let Disney know how much it was a betrayal of the characters, of the rules in the universe, and of the fans' trust.
discobob1 ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 21:44:44 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Drama much?
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 21:48:48 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
discobob1 ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 21:50:19 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Many of the IMDB ratings are bots, too. Just look at the user names on some of those reviews...
widget1321 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 02:33:46 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I'm pretty sure that even if it displays all of them equally, the score in IMDB weights the scores in a way that is meant to help prevent bots from having as large as effect. I don't know the details, but that is one reason most trust that score more than a lot of movie review scores. Also, in this particular case, the CinemaScore is high, which makes me think that most people liked it.
I know there are legitimate criticisms of the movie and a significant number don't like it (most of which probably do have legitimate gripes), but it does seem that most people do like the movie.
KoolAidDrank ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 23:50:20 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
not very few but not anywhere close to 50/50. the people that disliked it make up a disproportionately large amount of people that engage online about the movie. The box office is bananas and it got an A Cinema Score (the only legit fan score).
WillzyxTheZypod ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 18:01:22 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
One point of clarification: "Jedi Knights aren't celibate - the thing that is forbidden is attachments - and possessive relationships."
Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/1989505.stm
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 11:28:25 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
So they hit it and quit it I guess?
ANegativeCation ยท 242 points ยท Posted at 15:25:10 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Just a passive observation. It has appeared to me that in this sub more of the people who liked the movie are the ones shitting on those who did not like it's opinions. Granted there's a few I didn't like it so your wrong attitudes floating out there as eell, but seems to be more so the first set being grumpy and dismissive. I have only seen a sampling size though, so I could always be wrong.
Boom9001 ยท 110 points ยท Posted at 15:41:59 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Also worth noting that pointing out things you didn't like doesn't necessarily mean you dislike the movie as a whole.
You can nitpick the entire movie and still say you enjoyed it while watching it. Some people get enjoyment out of looking at things to improve movies in theory. I'm one of those types, but I still had an amazing time on viewing.
bcmarettig ยท 15 points ยท Posted at 20:22:49 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
You just settled my inner conflict. I thought that there was something wrong with me for enjoying it as much as I did haha.
Boom9001 ยท 12 points ยท Posted at 20:40:31 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Deconstructing movies can be fun. Hell one movie that is a great example of this for me was Pacific Rim. It's a movie with so much problems with plot holes and issues in how they got Giant Robots to fight Godzillas. But during the film it's just about having fun and ignoring that.
BarfMacklin ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 18:58:56 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Exactly. Itโs all ultimately moot because if you enjoyed it personally, what does it matter what anyone else thinks? There are plenty of garbage movies (BvS is a great example) that I absolutely love just because I have fun watching them, and no ones opinion about what part of the garbage spectrum the movie falls on will change that for me.
Boom9001 ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 19:22:52 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Yeah but you can still discuss the movie and things you didn't like about it without therefore saying the movie is trash.
BarfMacklin ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:29:55 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Totally agreed, anyone wanting to talk about movies should be able to criticize freely and take criticism freely.
Tacodude ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:56:10 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Exactly. I recognize that there is stuff in this movie that absolutely does not work. But the themes and big ideas the movie has about the Force, and Kylo/Rey have me excited for future movies. On a macro level, I connected with the film.
Boom9001 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:50:44 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Right and that's what fun. After the fact it's easy to point at a few things you think could have been different. But that saying that doesn't mean the movie is shit.
95Mb ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 21:28:11 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Yep. I enjoyed The Last Jedi. Did I see a lot of things that could've been done better, absolutely! That doesn't mean I didn't see things that were done perfectly.
Vythan ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 12:57:00 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Thanks, this makes a lot of sense and is basically where I'm at. I have a very long laundry list of issues with the movie to the point where in theory I should've hated it. Somehow, though, I walked out of the theater having really enjoyed the time I spent watching it. It's a bit surreal, honestly.
It kind of reminds me of my reaction to Mass Effect 3; I have a lot of issues with that game, but somehow it's still my favorite installment in the trilogy.
Sworn_to_Ganondorf ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 21:13:43 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I thought it was better than the first, I didnt roll my eyes half as much, the music was good(first one had terrible music), the action was fun. And it had some fun moments.I came in expecting a story telling dumpsterfire but knowing id be entertained if the music was good the action was fun and had atleast a few enjoyable character moments like po and bb-8 reuniting. But I tear it apart because I love the original trilogy and nothing gets better by riding disneys dick. Infact doing that is what allows them to be lazy and treat star wars story telling like their bitch so people can just mindlessly buy more star wars products.
Boom9001 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 21:27:10 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Right you don't have to say it was perfect. And the actual issues should be pointed out. But pointing out a movie has flaws doesn't mean it wasn't enjoyable.
pragmaticzach ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 01:14:38 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
This is true in theory but in reality nitpicking becomes an echo chamber of negativity followed by overreacting backlash from the other side.
There is no civil conversation or "nitpicking" on the Internet, at least not in an open forum like this.
ANegativeCation ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 01:44:34 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Well then good sir, I will see you in hell.
pragmaticzach ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 02:14:47 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Dilly dilly.
VTKajin ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 04:19:19 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I've seen a lot more aggression and dismissal from the "didn't like it" camp, tbh. Not that there isn't any from the "liked it" camp.
PNWCoug42 ยท 19 points ยท Posted at 15:48:53 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I was told I wasn't a "genuine Star Wars fan," what ever that means because i enjoyed the movie. I've been watching the movies since the early 90's and read most of the original EU, not sure what more I could do other then have watched the movies when they first released to be a "genuine Star Wars fan."
[deleted] ยท 80 points ยท Posted at 16:05:27 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
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SwenKa ยท 28 points ยท Posted at 17:39:17 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I'd imagine most anti-TLJ posts are downvoted before they make it very far, which makes it hard to find a decent place to talk about criticisms.
Hattrick06 ยท 11 points ยท Posted at 19:42:10 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Wow. That's not how my page looked over the weekend and the past few days.
SwenKa ยท 34 points ยท Posted at 20:05:55 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Not sure how it was over the weekend, but between yesterday and today, it's all "Did anyone catch this?", "Best performances ever!", "We aren't giving ____ enough credit!"
And then a hundred, "Guys, please quit hating!" threads.
Hattrick06 ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 20:11:12 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Speaking for myself I like the movie a lot. I wasn't able to see it until Sunday because I was traveling. When I came back and got on reddit to see what people were saying nearly every post and comment was about how it had "ruined" star wars or about the fan divide. I was very very surprised.
wholegrainoats44 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:24:11 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
It goes in cycles. Hate/like/hate/like. For TFA it was initial 'like', then the 'dislike' backlash came. For TLJ, it's initial 'dislike', then the 'like' brigaders. It happens every time, and for every fandom.
PNWCoug42 ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 16:45:52 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
My point was that you are blaming the pro-TLJ crowd for shitting on the anti-TLJ crowd when both sides have people who are shitting on each other.
disconnect27 ยท 14 points ยท Posted at 18:03:59 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Ugh- I avoid ever commenting in this sub because of stuff like that. But I can assure you as someone who has been watching the movies since they were available on VHS in the 80โs (since I was born the year ANH came out) and being always stuck playing Leia since I was the only girl in the neighborhood when we all played imaginary games since we didnโt have video games even- youโre just as much a โgenuine Star Wars fanโ as me or the guy that spends his weekends dressing up as member of the 501st to visit sick kids in the hospital or the other guy that spends all day making Prequelmemes.
That being said- I found some parts TLJ that I really loved. There were some lines I think that will stand the test of time for all fans and of course some parts I thought that sucked. We were never going to have every plot issue wrapped up into a neat little package. IMHO-think that would ever happen was setting yourself up for disappointment as a fan of the franchise, and not knowing how J.J. Abrams influence as Exec Producer works.
Hattrick06 ยท -7 points ยท Posted at 19:44:40 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Just the fact that in order to defend TLJ you have to spend 6 lines on your SW credentials shows that there are a lot of people attacking or more often implying that if you liked the movie you aren't a true fan.
bobakm ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 20:53:21 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
that or you're the other direction and it's just your head cannon. sigh.
LateDentArthurDent42 ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 16:16:06 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Yeah, no. I can't tell you how many times I've been told "That's not Luke's character" by someone. And don't just look at the posts, look at the votes.
ANegativeCation ยท 40 points ยท Posted at 17:12:11 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
And the amount of times I have seen people who like the movie saying why people did not like it, and why they are wrong, giving reasons that are not the reasons. I have also noticed my comments saying what I dislike getting more downvotes than comments where I put what I liked. Not saying that my experience is the only experience, it that people who disliked it haven't been asses as well, just my experiences with it.
HamstersAreReal ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 23:18:32 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
this. I'm not shitting on people who dislike it. I'm citing my reasons for disliking the movie, then getting attacked for it. Big difference.
Hattrick06 ยท 15 points ยท Posted at 19:46:53 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
By god it's as if 30 years and some pretty terrifying personal tragedy had an impact on the man.
They told us he'd changed. The new trilogy begins with "Luke Skywalker has vanished." That's very out of character for Luke.
LateDentArthurDent42 ยท 9 points ยท Posted at 20:58:14 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Hell, even Yoda was affected by his failure. Nobidy moves to Dagobah by choice.
It's also like Luke's exactly the same kind of conflicted individual he always was in the movies.
nideak ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 01:10:58 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
correct me if I'm wrong, didn't Yoda go into exile, until it was time to help? Like, if help ever came along, he wouldn't be like "screw you, I'm a failure I want nothing to do with you!" ?
I don't know, because we never got that sort of interaction with Yoda. He just goes off into exile, never to be heard from again. I guess it's just my "headcanon" that he would have trained someone if they came along, looking to help fight the empire. But you're probably right, Yoda would have acted exactly like Luke in TLJ, had he been given the opportunity.
I_Fail_At_Life444 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 06:26:26 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Nah dude. There's a whole conversation between Yoda and Obi-Wan where Yoda is hell bent on not training Luke. Obi-Wan had to convince him. And as far as we know, Yoda didn't do shit for 30 years besides rot in his swamp.
nideak ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 12:16:23 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Oh, there is?
So Yoda says to Obi-wan "I'm a failure, so I won't train Luke?"
And Obi-Wan is like "nah man, failure's cool! that's how we learn"
and Yoda is like 'oh okay fine" ?
I need to re-watch ESB.
Lifeofpeanus ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:55:15 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Same.
๐๏ธ tyrannustyrannus ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 15:33:19 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
That's fair.
I'm sure some on both sides of the argument feel the same.
There's a totally different feeling to being dismissed for liking something as opposed to being dismissed for hating something though. As someone who dislikes the PT but really loves the ST, I've been on both sides.
[deleted] ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 15:38:50 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
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LateDentArthurDent42 ยท 9 points ยท Posted at 16:19:41 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
A-frickin-men.
"Luke wouldn't have killed Ben!"
"Luke has always been conflicted, used the dark side in the past, had little training, could easily have swayed by fear for the split second he admits, is wrecked by that failing and its consequences..."
DOWNVOTE!DOWNVOTE!DOWNVOTE!
Caiden019 ยท 16 points ยท Posted at 16:53:50 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
That's pretty much his entire character arc in Episode 6. Why retell it?
LateDentArthurDent42 ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 17:01:46 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Aside from the fact that plenty of people didn't seem to get the point before? Because time has passed, and that part of his character has caused some fairly significant consequences to occur.
It also provides a parallel to him and Kenobi. Kenobi failed a student, reluctantly tried to fix it with the next. Luke failed a student, reluctantly tried to fix it with the next.
Caiden019 ยท 9 points ยท Posted at 17:21:16 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
That's fine. I'm perfectly ok with Luke needing to face failure. It's been a long time and he was far from a perfect person. But his failure wasn't ultimately because of an inability to teach Ben. It's because he had a moment of weakness, one that he already faced before.
Luke already had to make this hard decision. He was told by his masters that darkness had to be destroyed. That Vader could not be redeemed. Luke came close to following, but at the last moment he stopped himself. He believed that there was always hope for someone to turn back from the darkside.
I'm fine with the character traits they wanted to give him in the film. I just think the way it was told deteriorates his character.
LateDentArthurDent42 ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 17:36:23 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Luke did not almist kill Vader because he was told that he was irredeemable. He almost killed Vader because Vader threatened to go after his sister (a sister Vader found out about because Luke failed to keep her out of his thoughts), and used his rage to fight back. The only thing that stopped him was when he realized how alike they actually were, and backed away from the dark side. THAT was his major fight, not pushing back against Yoda and Obi-Wan.
30 years later, he noticed the darkness growing in Ben, and by looking into his mind, he was afraid of what he saw, and had a moment of weakness (which he didn't even follow through on, and was ashamed of even as it happened). Unfortunately, that happened at the exact wrong moment in time.
There is no way any of that is against Luke's character. He had dipped into the dark side before, he had a moment of weakness before. He was coming from the exact opposite direction on this one, from gradually believing that Vader was good to gradually believing that Ben was bad. Just because he succeeded in one doesn't mean ge'd fail in the other
Caiden019 ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 17:46:48 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
But that falls under the same concept. He allowed himself to act in emotion and weakness and almost made a huge mistake. But he instead kept his resolve and turned Vader away from the Darkness. What was it about Ben that had to be so different in his eyes?
Again I don't have an issue with Luke having moments of weakness or failure. But he's been to a similar crossroad before. We've seen him cast aside his lightsaber and stand by his family even if it meant losing his life. Give him a different challenge to face.
LateDentArthurDent42 ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 20:27:20 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
In both cases, Luke reacted in the very same way. He gave in to the dark side, then backed away from the edge. He didn't strike down Vader, he didn't strike down Kylo. He looked at his reaction bith times and was ashamed. The difference is the way the decision played out, which I think makes it perfectly valid to look at.
We knew this was coming as far back as The Force Awakens, at least in general terms. We knew a student turned against him. So not only are they copying Luke's failure, they're also copying Kenobi's. They also both have different results. Anakin joined his dark mentor, Kylo killed his.
sweatpantswarrior ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 23:47:42 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Because in 6 Luke got over it in 1 fight and after that all was well in the world. In the case of Ben, it broke him. That's an actual consequence to the conflict.
Luke was more honest with himself and the audience in the line where he admits his shame than he was in the entire throne room fight in 6.
๐๏ธ tyrannustyrannus ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 16:27:39 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
or "hey, Luke saw good in Vader but didn't see it in Ben"
LateDentArthurDent42 ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 16:30:59 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Luke saw growing darkness in Ben. When he looked inside, it scared him for that split second.
Ben was the exact opposite of Vader. Vader he assumed was evil, and only sensed the conflict after he found out he was his father. Ben, Luke assumed was good and trained him, then found out how deep the darkness went.
๐๏ธ tyrannustyrannus ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 16:35:50 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I like this point
LateDentArthurDent42 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 16:42:16 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Thanks. I mean, I don't think Luke has been a "everything is good or bad" since at least the cave on Dagobah, when it was literally shoved into his face.
Plus, it's a wonder he doesn't have Jedi PTSD
๐๏ธ tyrannustyrannus ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 15:45:17 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
that's exactly how I feel, thanks
AmethystOracle ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 20:06:54 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
This is also what it felt like to be a person who actually liked the Prequels in most Star Wars and Geek spaces online.
๐๏ธ tyrannustyrannus ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 20:09:37 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
what if Rian Johnson's goal was to make PT and ST fans see eye to eye?
95Mb ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 21:35:26 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
A lot of your post comes off abrasive, fyi. Be the change you want to see.
Argyrius ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 09:53:13 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
That's not my impression at all. The amount of holier than thou attitude posts and smug jokes about people who didnt like it is huge. Both sides have people who are being dicks about it.
Brio_ ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:39:07 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
That's just bullshit. People who don't like it are giving reasons why they don't like it. People who like it are telling people who don't like it that they're wrong.
Bohrdumb ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 21:50:48 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
This is accurate to a point. The first few hours were very much the opposite so people may be overly defensive at this point. Nobody is feeling good.
ANegativeCation ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 22:06:52 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Well by now people on both sides have made asses of themselves.
Bohrdumb ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 22:14:05 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Very true. But I'm most disturbed by the post I read about how its Rey's fault Kylo went to the dark side. I unsubscribed from the sub for a bit after that.
ANegativeCation ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:20:04 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Hmm I never seen that idea. I don't find any idea or personal stance offensive or wrong, I just could not stand when people on either side post the reasons why people of the opposing side felt they way they did and why those opinions were wrong. An example, a guy who liked it posted everyone who disliked it thought it wasn't enough like the originals and needed to accept change. Fair enough, but there are many reasons to like or dislike it and no one person knows how everyone feels. I'm cool with both sides and any reason for or against.
Bohrdumb ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:22:43 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Well you're wrong and here are my 62 points why...
I'll admit I got into it with some folks but usually try to work out why their support was errant. Like you can't claim you dislike it because X if x isn't actually what happened.
ANegativeCation ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:40:25 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
If you give reasons, and accept others reasons, then absolutely. Though...some people just like or dislike stuff because they do..not always a reason is present, which i I'm cool with too.
Hattrick06 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 19:40:22 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Maybe. But I see a lot more of the dislike crowd pulling out the "true fan" card. Maybe not overtly, but there is a lot of undertones to what they say about "ruining the past movies" or "ruining Luke" that implies IF ONLY everyone was a fan like they were they'd understand how it was ruined.
People get defensive and annoyed about that. I know I do. It's not just people not liking the movie, it's people claiming that it's destroyed the whole franchise.
ANegativeCation ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 21:20:22 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Can we agree some people on both sides suck?
JakalDX ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 21:53:19 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
My Facebook is full of people savaging the movie and acting like people who enjoyed it know nothing about anything. The whole reason I came here is because I feel like a dunce for liking it and it's nice to see that other people liked it too.
ANegativeCation ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 21:59:21 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I liked much of it. But I have no knowledge of any social media sites opinions other than reddit, and my personal experiences as such.
RedDevilsEggs ยท 87 points ยท Posted at 16:04:41 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Anyone who thinks you're wrong for liking it is a putz. I disagree with most of your points, but Star Wars has in my opinion, always been about the personal perspective. What it means to the individual. How it resonates with them.
That being said, I'm one poor finish from IX making me write off the ST as badly as I did the PT, but if you're loving it, more power to you.
SwenKa ยท 76 points ยท Posted at 17:36:35 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
With this movie, I've written it off, I have no positive outlook for IX. My only hope is the off-shoots. I loved Rogue One, here's hoping the next ones are great.
luigitheplumber ยท 48 points ยท Posted at 18:51:20 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Same. I didn't like TFA, but it left enough time for TLJ to salvage the trilogy. It's a lost cause for me now. I'll watch IX only to for the characters, I don't care about the story anymore.
HamstersAreReal ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 23:20:53 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I envy that you still like the characters. I don't even care about them at this point.
Kainelol ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 00:11:01 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I liked the Kylo story and Rey's part in it, Finn was going to be interesting then they wasted him on that side mission
SwenKa ยท 22 points ยท Posted at 19:00:49 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Definitely.
I need to rewatch the prequel trilogy, because while I was younger when they came out, it didn't feel so cobbled together and directionless.
To condense all my criticisms and feels about TLJ into a single sentence, I'd have to say that The Last Jedi just felt completely soulless and empty.
justdelighted ยท 19 points ยท Posted at 00:05:31 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
The only way I can really describe it is that it just isn't Star Wars. It feels more like a generic action movie that was generated by some kind of action-movie-making algorithm by Disney. I've written off the ST but I have hope for Solo since Rogue One was so good as a standalone.
Banjoe64 ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 00:28:17 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
ii feel like solo would be difficult to get right from the get go because of who itโs about and who isnโt playing him. It would also be incredibly easy to take the easy way out while making this film and explain how he met chewie and Lando, obtained the falcon, and made the Kessel run along with something to do with Jabba (and probably Boba) at this breakneck pace of an action movie. ii mean ii hope itโs good but Iโm not gonna lie and say Iโm confident.
justdelighted ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 01:55:39 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Yeah I definitely see the difficulty in getting it right. Rogue One was a once-off with brand new characters whereas Solo will have to build on characters we already love. Hopefully they can learn from the sequel trilogy's mistakes
Banjoe64 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 02:25:19 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
At this point Iโm convinced Gareth Edwards should do all the Star Wars films.
cetesastronomy ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 01:12:50 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Did you watch the prequels before the OT? I was beginning to think that everyone who grew up with the prequels liked TLJ.
SwenKa ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 01:59:17 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Nope, saw the originals before. I was 9 when Phantom Menace came out, so by then I'd seen IV and VI at least once each, and V like a dozen times.
Nzash ยท 16 points ยท Posted at 00:34:42 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I'm pretty much done with Disney's MarvelWars as well, however I'll probably watch ep9 just to see what happens with Kylo.
Adam Driver is the only reason to keep watching this mess at this point, he's really doing a fantastic job.
Used to think Hux might be interesting but he turned into a really comical version of a space Hitler buffoon who's a total loser and clown, feels extremely childish.
SwenKa ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 00:45:51 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Given the material he's given, I think it's a decent job. Would really love to see more of that internal struggle and conflict come out, but it's lower on my list of gripes. To really rate his performance I'd need to rewatch TFA and TLJ, but I don't know that that will happen again soon.
TooMuchButtHair ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 03:16:03 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
The problem with TLJ is that there's nothing to look forward to in 9. No Carrie Fisher. Luke's dead. No exciting mystery to solve. What's the point?
VTKajin ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 04:18:22 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Uncharted territory? The apprentice has become the master and both he and the other main character (Rey) are deeply conflicted and inexperienced, and yet the fate of the Galaxy rests in their hands. Kylo is a fantastic character and I want to see how IX will wrap up his story. I also want to know what Rey's role is in all of this ultimately. If that doesn't excite you... oh well, I suppose.
Banjoe64 ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 00:24:45 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
ii loved rogue one as well and would be excited for the off shoots... except that the next one is Han Solo origins....
WallScreamer ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 04:31:06 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Conversely, anyone that thinks someone is wrong for not liking it is also a putz.
John Check Cusack said it best in High Fidelity: "How can it be bullshit to state a preference?"
[deleted] ยท 29 points ยท Posted at 18:03:11 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
SilverSkywalkerSaber ยท 18 points ยท Posted at 03:14:47 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Of course he is, itโs his greatest shame. Itโs like Obi-Wan telling Luke that Vader killed his dad, not that he sliced his arms and legs off and left him to die in the most painful way burning to death.
Holty12345 ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 03:14:54 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Because he is ashamed he failed himself, the Jedi, his friends and Ben.
It works.
NealKenneth ยท 116 points ยท Posted at 15:40:08 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Yeah I don't think anyone has a problem with people likng the film but damn do they go crazy if you say you didn't.
That is where the fight is coming from
Caiden019 ยท 58 points ยท Posted at 15:45:01 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I've got no issue with people who liked it. Everyone has a right to their opinion. It's the "lol all fanboys want to do is cry. You can never please them." or the "Anyone who like this film is an idiot." people that I can't stand.
[deleted] ยท 28 points ยท Posted at 16:12:30 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
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bucksncats ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 17:24:48 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Their childhood was really asking for it
Lego_C3PO ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 03:21:15 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Rian Johnson didn't ruin my childhood...
Fucking polio did
Blackshirts98 ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 21:59:32 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Fanboys do blow things way way out of proportion, letโs not pretend that they have a normal slate of expectations when walking into a Star Wars film lol. Denying that is just naive. Yes maybe expectations should be different because it is Star Wars, but that doesnโt change the reality. Episode 9 could be the greatest movie ever made and since it is a NEW Star Wars film it would still be massively hated.
[deleted] ยท -2 points ยท Posted at 16:11:16 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
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๐๏ธ tyrannustyrannus ยท 29 points ยท Posted at 15:46:19 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
lots of people are telling me I'm stupid and in denial for liking it. The fight is on both sides.
edit: Just look at these downvotes for me stating what people have actually said to me
CoreyTrevor1 ยท 60 points ยท Posted at 21:08:21 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
"Stupid fanboy, you're just pissed that your fan theories weren't true!"
Nah I'm pissed that the story wasn't that great, it was loaded with awkward bad humor and dialogue, had a casino scene straight out of Harry Potter, and apparently cruisers can demolish dreadnaughts shields be damned.
maglen69 ยท 22 points ยท Posted at 23:09:12 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
"You just didn't understand it".
No, I understood it and I didn't agree with the way it went and all the plot holes and terrible side stories.
Banjoe64 ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 00:37:15 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Thereโs really nothing to misunderstand... itโs not a โdeepโ movie. And not being โdeepโ isnโt what I๏ธ think makes it bad.
Doobiemoto ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 17:24:18 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Come on now. By FAR it is the smartest star wars movie there is. I am not saying you ahve to like the plot or themes or whatever, but to even deny that it isn't the deepest and smartest Star Wars movie is a joke.
Banjoe64 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 17:28:16 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Iโm seriously not seeing that at all man. The story arc of Palpatines takeover in the prequels is smarter than TLJ. Itโs like they tried to be โdeepโ but fell flat. Besides, Star Wars isnโt really supposed to be deep. Itโs supposed to tell a good story and i donโt think TLJ accomplished that.
VTKajin ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 04:24:30 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I can agree with some of your reasons for disliking it, but ultimately the GOOD easily outweighed the bad for me.
wiifan55 ยท 71 points ยท Posted at 19:04:59 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
The downvotes are likely because you oversimplified or else mischaracterized most of the complaints against the film, which is a common trend on here amongst those who did like it.
DarthNihilus ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 02:49:20 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I love that you mentioned the reliance on mischaracterizing arguments. It's incredibly prevalent in these types of posts.
PM_ME_UR_STEAM_CASH ยท 15 points ยท Posted at 21:19:23 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
You are getting downvotes because you've grouped all of the people who criticize the film into one fanatical hivemind which attacks anyone and everyone who enjoyed the film. That simply isn't true. There have been SO many threads on this subreddit in which the topic is "Everyone is hating on this film because their fan theory wasn't true" or "People need to stop whining about the movie and attacking the people who did like it," when there simply aren't that many people doing that. Many people are fed up with how many threads there are completely misrepresenting any criticism against the movie.
HamstersAreReal ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 23:26:08 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Stop using straw man as an argument. You're conflating most of the people who disliked the film as rude assholes whose fan theories didn't come true. That's not the case.
ObliviousFriend ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 19:14:33 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Check youtube comments. It goes both ways.
LateDentArthurDent42 ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 16:11:04 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Yeah, no. People have been whining on both sides.
Londonforce ยท 16 points ยท Posted at 01:12:53 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
"Had Rey been born 100 years sooner The Jedi would have found Rey as a toddler and trained her and we would not be having this discussion"
Exactly, because she would have been trained. That's the issue.
ThePerson2525 ยท -2 points ยท Posted at 01:24:38 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I don't see how anything she does in this film is out of the realm of her established abilities. She kicked some ass and moved some rocks. This is an issue how?
It was established in TFA she is good at fighting. We see her train with the lightsaber. What the fuck else do we need?
Luke: "Rey, you have trained for 1,000,000 hours with the lightsaber...you are now ready to actually fight with it!"
Come on people, get a clue.
Remember when Star Wars was praised for it's economical, tight and "show don't tell" storytelling? Yeah, me too. Now everybody needs a fucking textbook of answers and reasons as to why anything happens in these films.
So what exactly is the problem with Rey kicking some as in this film? Because she "wasn't trained enough"? Trained in what? The Force? You don't need to be a Jedi to use the Force. This is known lore. You don't even need to be a Jedi to use a lightsaber. This is known lore.
Why is somebody who isn't a Jedi who is deft at kicking ass and can handle a lightsaber such sacrilege to you people? It's never been established in the film that only Jedi Knights are capable of using a lightsaber. If fact, the CONTRARY was explicitly stated.
General Grievous was not a Jedi nor was a he Sith and he knew how to use lightsabers just fine.
Londonforce ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 01:37:00 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
No one said anything about lightsaber fighting. It's force abilities.
This is an issue cuz she has no training and training has been established as a vital part of using the force with proficiency.
Luke trained with Obi Wan and then underwent rigorous extended training with Yoda. After all that, we was barely able to lift an X-wing. Rey is told that the force exists and gets 3 lessons from Luke, and she individually levitates a huge pile of boulders.
Like I said, this only matters because it was established to matter in every star wars movie.
ThePerson2525 ยท -4 points ยท Posted at 02:13:20 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Luke trained with a fucking remote for like an hour and managed to aim a damned torpedo into a tiny whole while flying through space....
And you wanna bitch about about Rey being able to use her natural fighting skills and moving rocks?
Londonforce ยท 9 points ยท Posted at 02:20:43 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
"I used to bullseye womp rats in my T-16 and they weren't much bigger"
No wait you're right, hitting a target with accuracy after years of practice while also being the son of the Force incarnate is probably the same as a nobody levitating thousands of pounds of rock with her mind after learning about the Force 2 weeks earlier.
ThePerson2525 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 11:34:13 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
See this reply I graciously typed up for someone else:
"WHAT? That's a totally arbitrary and nonsensical comparison. The Force isn't about enhancing your own abilities....
So you're saying that Rey has to be, what, really good at picking up rocks to be able to lift boulders with the Force????
The Force is about tapping in feeling, emotion and harmony. Rey focused on her love for her friends to lift the rocks."
And for the record, I love how people will call on one throw-away line of exposition to justify defending Lukes instant skill with the Force but totally ignore and purposefully misrepresent the exposition and context with Rey just to shit on her character.
And also for the record, if shooting rats in a hole with a little ship is enough to get you a position as a fighter jet pilot in the most important life or death mission of the Rebellion then surely it can be forgiven Rey is deft is at fighting, as was shown, and can lift rocks with The Force...which doesn't need past experience to accomplish. This notion that you need, like, a background in certain actions to use the Force for something is laughable and the definition of making shit up to complain about.
ripplewho ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 10:46:12 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
How you don't see the difference between someone having the Force help them do things human beings are already capable of and using the Force to lift thousands and thousands of pounds of rock is completely beyond me.
ThePerson2525 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 11:23:56 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
WHAT? That's a totally arbitrary and nonsensical comparison. The Force isn't about enhancing your own abilities....
So you're saying that Rey has to be, what, really good at picking up rocks to be able to lift boulders with the Force????
The Force is about tapping in feeling, emotion and harmony. Rey focused on her love for her friends to lift the rocks.
ripplewho ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 11:35:59 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
WTF are you even saying.
Hitting a target with a torpedo is still possible without being in tune with the Force.
Making literal tons of boulders float in the air is completely impossible without the Force.
One of these Force feats is clearly more impressive than the other. Can you guess which? Think real hard and maybe you can see why people are bitching about Rey being way too powerful.
ThePerson2525 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 11:54:28 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I think that flying in a fight jet during a massive battle and using the force to push a missile into a hole that was canonically stated as being nigh impossible is much more unbelievable than standing still and moving some fucking rocks to help save your friends. But fuck me right, with my logic?!
ripplewho ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 18:28:59 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
You know what's logical? Providing proof for half-assed claims, because I've never heard that he pushed the missiles in with the force and the movie doesn't imply that it's how he did it (Han says the shot is "one in a million", not "Wtf how did you do that?" and there are several other rebel pilots looking to make that same shot).
Also, the "massive battle" is basically over when Luke makes the shot so it's not like he's distracted by enemy ships.
ThePerson2525 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 13:02:57 on December 21, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Are you kidding me? You can't be serious? Good god, you are aren't you? Luke using the Force to make the shot is like, one of the most famous scenes in the entire fucking franchise. And you're gonna play dumb about it.
You people will actively rewrite, misrepresent and blatantly lie about the originals films just to support your hatred for the new ones. This takes pathetic to a whole new level.
ratcaper ยท 56 points ยท Posted at 19:15:47 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
For me it was just the bad writing. If the exact same things you mentioned here happened, but the writing had been better, it would've been amazing.
I didn't like or hate it, I just thought it was weird.. I mean, so much filler and no real content...
iwiggums ยท 13 points ยท Posted at 20:27:51 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
This. I don't really mind any of the major plot points at all, I can even probably get over Luke losing all optimism and somehow deciding to kill his own student... yeah maybe not.
BUT the writing is about as sound as a dude covered in vaselines' grip on a wet catfish. If that wasn't so, my opinion of the movie would improve drastically.
madworld2713 ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 01:23:52 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I mean Luke didnt decide to kill him, he thought about it for a brief moment, then it passed. Its his greatest shame. Is it really unbelievable that he would have a moment of weakness, when he had a vision of all the pain and suffering Ben would cause? Many Jedi have struggled with dark impulses, including Luke himself. Of some of the flaws in this film I dont think that is one of them.
iwiggums ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 01:29:41 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Yeah, you're right.
AgentWashingtub1 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:35:02 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
It was super filler! Nothing of any real significance happened besides Luke came back and then became a force ghost. Finn was off doing nothing for 2/3 of the film, all of his actions were so inconsequential BUT he appeared in a number of outfits so Disney can now sell lots more Finn action figures!
VTKajin ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 04:01:04 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
If TLJ was filler than so was ESB lol
ratcaper ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 10:11:02 on December 21, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Yeah the whole Finn arc was super weird and came down to nothing - the master coder didn't have any impact what so ever. Their capture was meaningless because they didn't get killed or learned any thing from it.
All it did was give purpose to the shot of the force kids in the end.
[deleted] ยท -2 points ยท Posted at 02:57:15 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
davebleedsblue ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 09:26:53 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
โThis is the one criticism of this film I canโt tolerate.โ
That kind of arrogant, holier-than-thou attitude is childish. Youโre not that important - get over yourself. No one cares if you personally canโt tolerate it. Itโs not relevant to anyone but you. People can like or not like the film for any reason(s), and communicate that in any way.
I didnโt like TLJ at all but I respect your opinions and Iโm glad youโre free to give them. I may disagree, but toleration is not something I concern myself with. You shouldnโt either.
Z0mbeyonce ยท 33 points ยท Posted at 21:27:19 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
The reason the Emperor worked without a deep character history in the originals is because the Star Wars universe was still new. There weren't 7 previous films to build from. Snoke is lazy writing. There wasn't anything creative or interesting about his character. He was a complete throw away.
I'm not sure why anyone cares about Rey's parents. I hope they dont even go into it in the third film. I hope she isn't Ren's sister, but they certainly hint at it... With this newest installment, it seems anyone can be a Jedi if they close their eyes and think hard enough. Being trained and studying the ways of the force is pointless now.
I don't understand what people like about Rey, other than her being an attractive woman with a British accent and a light saber. Her character arch compared to Luke's in the original trilogy is flat. What is her character arch? I'm not sure she even has one. OP even mentions in the post that she has always been this way. Thats boring and lazy writing. What makes characters interesting in films is how they change. She's just always been this way? Maybe one of you can educate me because I don't understand what makes her so popular other than what I just mentioned.
I have to ask. If the Jedi are celibate and don't pass on their connection to family then how does the Skywalker family even exist? How is Leia such a powerful force user that she can resurrect herself from the dead? These new movies are ripping apart all the world building that George Lucas was so good at.
Don't even get me started on the story with with Luke and Kylo Ren. What a missed opportunity. I don't understand why they wouldn't build up their relationship more. I wish I got to see Luke training Ren and what made him join Snoke and the dark side, then the parallels between him training with Snoke and Rey training with Luke. It would have given so much more gravity to everything that was going on, but the film has glaring pacing issues and everything seems to happen at light speed. None of these scenes breath. No moments really feel earned.
The humor in this film wasn't as good as the originals. If anything it felt even more dumbed down for children. People like to say Star Wars films are for kids and not for adults, but the originals did a pretty good job at not feeling this childish. Look a movies like the Incredibles, it does a great job of appealing to both adults and children, so I'll never understand the star wars is for kids argument. Isn't it rated PG-13?
I'm not sure how people think the one liners in this film compare to the originals, but I thought they weren't as strong compared to things like: "Thats no moon" "I am your father" "Never tell me the odds" Maybe one of you can give me one of the epic quotes from this last film I already forgot about. I will admit at least Yoda had some decent ones, but its Yoda. We expect some great quotes from the master.
I don't think Rian Johnson understands Star Wars and I'm really disappointed disney is going to let this guy make his own original trilogy in the star wars universe. This franchise is ruined and it only exists now to make money off of the fans by using cuteness, bad jokes, and pretty action scenes. There is no artistic integrity with these new films, just greedy business men that want to sell you crap.
I just went on a rant, so hopefully this makes sense. I'm happy you enjoyed it though! I hope I don't come across as a giant ass hole. May the force be with you!
InspectorBear ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 02:13:16 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Yep, people creating posts explaining to me how her being on jakku has made her a good fighter is for one bad storytelling and two not explained in either film at all. Her character has no depth or growth whatsoever, people seem to be acting like we're idiots for not assuming her upbringing taught her all of this. Well hate to break it to you films aren't meant to make you assume growth that already happened, they have to show in the movie itself, or explain it to us that it already which they have not yet. Another of the many reasons this movie was disappointing and offered no additional depth to the universe, if anything it caused the story to be trapped and head in a more linear fashion.
iceblendedtaro ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 16:33:06 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
https://youtu.be/sg29Sa6QFes this video might suit your taste. have fun watching xD
๐๏ธ tyrannustyrannus ยท -10 points ยท Posted at 21:31:37 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
enlighten us
holy crap have you listened to JJ Abrams, Gareth Edwards, or Rian Johnson talk about Star Wars?
Z0mbeyonce ยท 13 points ยท Posted at 23:23:28 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
The last interview I read with Rian Johnson, he is quoted saying he had to figure out why Luke was on the island and why he didn't want to leave. This is not good. That means Disney has no outline for this new trilogy. They don't know where they are going with the story. It's obvious with how this film ties into The Force Awakens. So many missed opportunities. So many things that ruin the lore from the originals.
Just look at how Rian handled Luke. In the original trilogy, Luke had the courage and was willing to sacrifice his life to convert Vader back to light. Yet in this movie it's revealed he is so fearful of the dark side that he is tempted to kill the son of his twin sister and best friend in his sleep just because he's shown tendencies of going towards the dark side?...
Having Luke being this fearful coward that has basically lead to this state where he is a hermit disconnected from the force didn't make much sense to me at all. There is literally nothing in the original trilogy that would lead you to believe the character development in Luke that Ep. 8 went with.
SafeDanger ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 00:48:25 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
It would have been far more worthwhile to have Luke betrayed by Kylo during his training and in thwarting the attack Luke comes close to killing him almost submitting himself completely to the dark side. The guilt of his desire to kill Kylo and fear of his close descent to the dark side lead him to cloister himself and await the arrival of Kylo's balance in the force
He can't join the fight directly because in facing Kylo and possibly killing him he would become something far worse and darker. A true Sith overlord
jdawg254 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 05:01:51 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
That kinda reminds me of a book from the no longer canon universe, The one where luke is training Jaina solo to fight Jace solo because Luke knows he cant do it without going to the dark side.
Skydiving_Dogsled ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 06:56:15 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
It's in Legacy of the Force. I believe it was Fury. Luke discovers that Jacen was torturing Luke's son Ben in the Embrace of Pain, an old Yuuzhan Vong device, attacks Jacen in retribution and almost kills him but then stops because he realizes it would turn him to the dark side.
CleverSpirit ยท 58 points ยท Posted at 17:14:33 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
My problems with TLJ: 1. Leia will die at the hands of Kylo, not! She dies by the hands of other Tie fighters, not! She survives space with (surprise twist) the Force. 2. Luke will train Rey, not! He wants nothing to do with the force, not! He agrees to giving 3 lessons, not! He only gives 2. 3. The Jedi books gets destroyed by Luke, not! They get destroyed by Yoda, not! They were actually taken by Rey and are safe aboard the Millennium Falcon. 4. Luke dies from blasters, not! Luke dies from Kylo's saber, not! Luke dies from... (what???? cough heart attack cough)
geekbyhall ยท 41 points ยท Posted at 18:00:54 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
My only issue was with #1. It was such a great scene and then she just comes back to life or whatever with the force and cheapened that entire moment.
Its_Snowing ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 02:42:19 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Totally. I thought the movie was taking an amazing turn, which would have coincided with Carrie's untimely demise and helped out planning for episode 9. Instead, no balls and random ass force levitation. ffs
lost_mail ยท 25 points ยท Posted at 18:02:45 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I agree with your first point, and Leia should've died with the attack on the bridge.
Carrie Fisher has portrayed Leia very well. It was gut wrenching seeing Kylo getting ready to fire, deciding not to, and then have to witness his wingmen carry out the deed when he'd chosen mercy. The hopelessness and remorse he'd feel.
It left a great impression on me seeing Leia supposedly die, sucked into the void of space. I felt really sad, with a thought of "So this is how it ended", it felt complete.
Until she pulled herself back towards the ship and it went into a feeling of ridiculousness and that it was a bit over the top. It was beautiful the way it was up until that point.
AmethystOracle ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:02:03 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
But her performance through the rest of the film was just fantastic - why waste it?
lost_mail ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 22:20:00 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Yeah the rest of her performance was good and it wouldโve been a waste out of that perspective to kill her.
Oyul ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:07:50 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I thought she was one of the best parts of the new film. Her flying through space was a bit odd at first but I think cemented the idea that sheโs actually a fucking powerful force user, and that there are people who use it in ways beyond waving lightsabers and moving rocks. Sheโs Kyloโs mother, sheโs Darth Vaderโs daughter... fuck yeah sheโs amazing.
Jurassic_Rabbit ยท 23 points ยท Posted at 17:52:42 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Naildd it. I felt like Rian was shouting PSYCHE! over and over. Was really stupid.
Oyul ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 23:09:54 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I feel like people are only feeling this because they know Fisher is dead and thought TLJ would write her out and were expecting it any time she was in peril. She only had one real death scare.
ripplewho ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 01:25:05 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
But it wasn't just the Leia stuff, it was throughout the entire movie.
Senecaraine ยท 14 points ยท Posted at 23:23:14 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
The vast majority of the problems I had with the movie come down to that one thing: Rian was more focused on twists and surprising the audience than making sure the movie was actually well thought out. There's multiple plot lines that amount to twist after twist negating themselves, as well as meaningful moments reduced to nothing by smug jokes.
๐๏ธ tyrannustyrannus ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 17:16:33 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
All fair criticism, I just don't relate to it
Blackshirts98 ยท -5 points ยท Posted at 22:00:58 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I wouldnโt even suggest that to be fair criticism. It was simply what he expected to happen yet it didnโt lol
JahWontPayTheBills33 ยท 12 points ยท Posted at 23:20:46 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Thatโs not true. He wouldnโt have expected those things to happen if they werenโt portrayed as having happened in the film just to reveal that they didnโt happen that way. Itโs not just fair criticism but an accurate depiction of every plot โtwistโ in this shitty movie
Blackshirts98 ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 23:56:46 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
And expecting Leia to die and Luke to train Rey were preconceived notions
Blackshirts98 ยท -4 points ยท Posted at 23:53:00 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Really lol? Did you expect Luke to die from the blasters? You only expected Leia to die like that cause what happened to Fisher.
idrawshapes ยท 13 points ยท Posted at 01:06:23 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I expected Leia to die like that because she got blasted into outer space.
Blackshirts98 ยท -2 points ยท Posted at 01:14:30 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Yeah in a movie where people move things with their mind, ever connected universe, light speed, laser swords, destroying planets. People really didnโt complain with Darth maul came back even though he got cut in half and fell 400 feet lol People donโt die in stuff like this
idrawshapes ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 01:20:45 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Maul should have stayed dead.
Let's just bring back Mace Windu. He only fell off a building after all. The emperor too, he only fell down a shaft. How about everyone aboard both Death Stars? Tarkin, Boba Fett, everyone. After all, people don't die in stuff like this. :)
Blackshirts98 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 03:28:03 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Well you do know that boba didnโt die right? And itโs true in Star Wars, comics, pretty much Hollywood people donโt just die lol.
idrawshapes ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 03:51:14 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Hollywood people don't just die?
SO MACE WINDU AND GUI GON JINN ARE ALIVE?!
Holy shit... Did anybody else know this?
http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/2013/10/tim-and-eric-mind-blown.gif
Blackshirts98 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 03:58:42 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Well Jinn is a force ghost and Mace is probably dead but I mean if you actually know about mace itโs possible for him to survive what happened lmao
idrawshapes ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 04:00:25 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
No no, they're both alive. they have to be. People don't die in stuff like this. You told me so yourself ;)
Blackshirts98 ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 03:29:58 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
How dare someone be able to survive outer space >:( I want my movie about space wizards, pirates, and nazis to be grounded in reality
idrawshapes ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 03:57:42 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Well hey, at least it's good to know there were zero casualties in this fictional story. Silly First order, firing their green neon lasers at our beloved characters. Don't they know people can't die in space?
Seriously dude. You got nothing to argue this. You're just being an ass now.
Blackshirts98 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 04:04:11 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
If you donโt understand that main/lead characters always can find a way back to life in film then I say again, youโre being ignorant
idrawshapes ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 04:07:18 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
You're right. You can literally do whatever you want in film. It's a story after all. Doesn't mean it's a good story though.
JahWontPayTheBills33 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 03:54:53 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Where does the confidence to tell me why I expected Leia to die come from? What do you know that the rest of us donโt, oh wise one? I expected her to die because she got sucked out into space unprotected.
Z0mbeyonce ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 23:46:26 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Did you see the movie? Because that's what happens in the movie.
Blackshirts98 ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 23:55:59 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
A lot of those were simply assumptions from before the film. Carrie Fisher dying? People expected Leia to. People also expected Luke to train Rey lol.
Citadelix ยท 66 points ยท Posted at 19:07:55 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
but but, the emperor in the OT didnโt have a backstory!
Itโs different now, due to the addition of the other movies, there needs to be an explanation of some reason why this man is so powerful and what was occurring in his life while he let Darth Sidious and Vader rule the Galaxy.
[deleted] ยท 30 points ยท Posted at 20:19:28 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
[removed]
Brio_ ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 23:40:24 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Wait, are you telling me after 8 movies maybe some things would need explaining that didn't need explaining in the first couple movies? Crazy!
VTKajin ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 04:03:51 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
There does. But it doesn't need to be in TLJ itself because that's to satisfy fans of the lore. A novel would do the job just fine.
[deleted] ยท -3 points ยท Posted at 02:38:23 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
ripplewho ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 10:39:25 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
What's "necessary" is entirely subjective. Rose, Holdo, the Codebreaker, and all the screentime they received were completely unnecessary and could have been replaced with better plot points.
Like maybe explaining where Snoke came from because it might actually be a really huge deal for the main characters to know in case Snoke wasn't alone and there are other Sith-like people out there.
bigtec ยท 35 points ยท Posted at 18:35:29 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Jedi aren't celibate they just can't form connections.
You can like this movie all you want, that's fine but I don't like this movie. A lot of what you're saying I have the opposite opinion.
You liked that whole Luke contemplating killing ben thing but I hate it because it goes against his character in the OT. He bent over backwards and almost died to redeem his father, a mass murderer and Sith Lord and also a dude who cut off his hand and someone he barely knows like at all but now he's suddenly okay with the idea of killing his nephew who has yet to do anything wrong at all?
And I'm sorry but the force doesn't work that way. You cant just believe the force into doing what you want, you need a teacher to show you how to harness that power. Even Anakin Skywalker needed to be TAUGHT how to use the force. Being force sensitive allows people certain passive advantages like faster reflexes and very limited precognition but Rey shows absurd control of the force like telekinesis and mind control then overpowering a way more experienced force user with no training whatsoever. There had to be SOME explanation but in this movie it's revealed that there isn't. She's just super powerful for no reason. Btw idgaf she's a girl, not saying you'd make that argument against me but I'm just putting that out there.
I actually like the humour and I don't mind it Even if it is marvel like.
I don't mind that her parents were nobodies but then why the hell were they even hyped to be this big reveal in TFA? The same with Snoke. why were they trying to make it seem like he was this powerful mysterious dark side user if all he does is die like a bitch in the next movie?
Again you can like the movie and I won't attack you for it but at the same time I hated it.
VTKajin ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 04:05:43 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
You can dislike the movie all you want, as long as everyone who did (along with everyone who liked it) realize that it's all opinion.
Oyul ยท -7 points ยท Posted at 23:31:49 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Seems like youโre angry that the story didnโt go the way you expected and wanted it to and got carried away by fan theories and ignored what the film actually told us. Reyโs parents werenโt hyped in TFA. They were just a device to keep her on Jakku when she had the wits and resourcefulness to leave virtually any time she wanted. She has abandonment issues, and her arc is about moving on and finding belonging elsewhere. But people so desperately wanted her to be the child of someone important that they projected all kinds of theories and ignored that the filmโs themes which were all but spelled out by Maz.
Also Luke was not ok with murdering his nephew. As he explains in the film you just watched, he contemplated it for a split second then decided against it. Luke struggled with the dark side in the OT. Itโs not breaking character to say he still does momentarily. Luke only helped his own father after heโd battered him to a bloody pulp and was about to murder him at a point when Vader was helpless. Luke walking back from that dark edge was an iconic moment. Him about to kill his sleeping nephew was a reference to that moment, as was his decision to not go through with it.
And blah blah blah, Rey is too powerful. Not a criticism usually lobbed at Male force users, even when they demonstrate greater powers with less training. Anakin can pod race at 10 and blow up battle cruisers his first time in a fighter, and Luke can go from farm boy to ace pilot using the force to blow up the Death Star in the space of, what, a few days? Weeks? Rey is not allowed to be prodigiously strong?
ripplewho ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 01:21:19 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Lmfao thank you for this, most ridiculous thing I've read all week.
Charinabottae ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 03:49:46 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
It has nothing to do with her being a girl. I also thought she seemed way overpowered (and PS- my favorite Star Wars characters are Ahsoka and Ventress.) It's the fact that she got next to no training and is far more powerful than Anakin and Luke at the same spots in their training.
flies_with_owls ยท -13 points ยท Posted at 20:46:27 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Maz told us specifically to stop caring about her parents. "What you seek isn't behind you."
JoyceHopper ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 03:02:02 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
That isn't what specifically means.
[deleted] ยท 46 points ยท Posted at 19:30:17 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
[removed]
๐๏ธ tyrannustyrannus ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:32:53 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
credit to u/nordjitsu
Talidel ยท 19 points ยท Posted at 20:38:11 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
It wasn't nutritional. It was junk food.
The most plastic scraped off the floor and mass produced junk food that you can buy.
NordJitsu ยท -6 points ยท Posted at 20:42:31 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
You missed the point. Heโs allowed to have an opinion on which criticism are valid and which are not.
Talidel ยท 16 points ยท Posted at 20:50:34 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Indeed, I feel you missed the point that every one is entitled to have an opinion on an opinion.
Though if you want to call a burger an apple, I'm going to point out you are wrong. If you want to claim that in your opinion a burger is an apple, well I'm still going to tell you you are wrong.
Opinions aren't facts, and an opinion can be wrong. The point in places like this are to provoke discussion, and well nothing gets people talking like wild statements of fact.
WheresTheSauce ยท 31 points ยท Posted at 21:01:43 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I see far more people completely shutting down people who disliked it than people who liked it.
๐๏ธ tyrannustyrannus ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 01:09:10 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Read this thread. Look at what's being downvoted. I come to an agreement with someone and it's downvoted. People are going into my post history and downvoting me. This if fucking crazy
kmoros ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 04:25:57 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
You gotta remember that ultimately you are in the Star Wars subreddit. The first day or two was maximum hate, but eventually people who don't like it leave and its once again more hardcore star wars fans, who of course will lean positive on the movie.
CheezStik ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 03:05:49 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Which is why you've been up voted by 20 people. Want to see the real unpopular opinions? Sort by controversial
WhoopingKing ยท 44 points ยท Posted at 15:49:24 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
We could go on without these useless condescending threads right? You don't have to dismiss all criticism with an "I don't care and neither should you" attitude while asking people to respect your view
๐๏ธ tyrannustyrannus ยท -3 points ยท Posted at 15:52:12 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
whoa you totally missed my point. I'm saying I don't relate to your criticism, not that it's wrong. If your criticism is based on your personal feelings, It can't be wrong.
LateDentArthurDent42 ยท -11 points ยท Posted at 16:10:21 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
It's interesting how you'd view this as condescending. Almost as if you didn't read it.
And, for the record, yes, that was totally meant to be condescending.
[deleted] ยท 28 points ยท Posted at 17:21:26 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
๐๏ธ tyrannustyrannus ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 17:54:56 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I don't think I'm being condescending. I'm saying it doesn't matter to me, and I can't relate to how it matters to you, but I accept that it does.
LateDentArthurDent42 ยท -6 points ยท Posted at 17:25:32 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
In 30 years, shit gets broken again. Those who forget the past, etc...
[deleted] ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 17:39:48 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
LateDentArthurDent42 ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 17:43:04 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
The bad guy you though was the bad guy wasn't actually the bad guy.
The Jedi didn't learn that all through the prequels. The fans are having trouble dealing with it in the sequels.
Lesser force users have survived being cut in half anyway.
salivatingsalmon ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 04:28:06 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
As someone who did not enjoy The Last Jedi but desperately wants to, I feel compelled to reply to this...and I seek to do so respectfully, as you requested and as we all deserve. It's really not worth fighting with internet strangers over a movie.
So I'm gonna go through your post point by point and give my thoughts, no matter how short or long they may end up being. Before doing so let me preface this by saying I am honestly really glad there are people out there who liked or even loved the movie, I'm actually really jealous of you and I certainly respect your opinions and don't look down on you for liking the movie. I also acknowledge that I know this post wasn't necessarily directed at me personally, but I will be responding as if it were for the sake of my comment.
I wouldn't say that Snoke's backstory was necessarily IMPORTANT to me, I was just curious. And I'm not really upset that we didn't get his backstory, I'm just generally upset with how his character was handled, specifically in TLJ. In TFA Snoke was mysterious and terrifying and I was fascinated by him. But we were never really given a reason to hate him in either film. For me at least, I never felt like he was pure evil, just that he was the mastermind and authority behind the First Order. This lack of hatred built towards Snoke takes a lot of weight out of his death that would otherwise be there.
This is another thing that I'm actually not particularly upset with. In fact, I am totally fine with Rey's parents being nobodies. However, once again I am not okay with how it was handled, specifically in TLJ. Obviously TFA left us all wondering who her parents were, and it was fully expected that it would be revealed in TLJ. And throughout TLJ it was teased that it was going to be revealed and the entire time this curiosity is mounting and I'm so sure that it was going to be something huge, only for it to be totally meaningless. Why bother building all that mystery and curiosity (that was already there from TFA) only to have it be nothing?
Me either, this was perhaps the one thing I enjoyed about how Luke was handled in TLJ.
This is the one point you made that I do take great issue with. Suggesting that the humor in TLJ is similar to the humor in any other Star Wars movie is laughable (except MAYBE for TFA).
For starters there is a lot more humor throughout TLJ than in any other Star Wars film to date. But the quantity of jokes is not my biggest issue, but it is the jokes themselves. The movie literally starts with a gag between Poe and Hux that is cheesy and drags on for far too long.
This brings me to my biggest problem with the jokes and it is broken down into two major parts:
A. There is joking between the light and dark side, good guys and bad.
I'm sure many will argue that there was joking between good guys and bad guys in previous movies, and I would agree. However, in this movie it sucks all the tension out of these scenes, whereas in previous films it served to enhance the intensity.
A friend of mine brought up a good point, why should we be afraid of or respect the First Order when Poe himself clearly doesn't right off the bat in this movie (or when Rey asks Kylo to put on a shirt..)? You can argue that it's "within his character" but it doesn't change the importance of the fact that it sucks the tension out of the interactions between these opposing forces.
B. Jokes in TLJ are gags, they require set-up and IMO it is not executed well (I could see almost all of the jokes/funny moments coming from a mile away). They also last longer than they should (i.e the Poe and Hux scene at the beginning). Compare this to previous Star Wars films (especially the OT) where almost all (if not all) funny moments were quick quips or had no words at all but were merely facial expressions/droids being cute.
I can totally respect that people love TLJ but I can't believe anyone who doesn't think the humor fell flat on it's face at many moments.
From here on I either agree with the rest of your post or I simply don't understand what you're trying to say.
I will point out though that a lot of the moments where you think Rey was using the force (Jedi Mind trick on the junker, waking Finn up, lining up Finn's shot)... I'm pretty sure she wasn't, or that fact just flew over my head somehow.
Lastly I will say you missed what are two of my biggest problems with this movie.
Leia flying through space back into the ship. Now I'm not here to argue if this is even possible in the world of Star Wars, that's a whole other thing. The whole execution of this moment was just terrible and cheesy and made me shake my head in disappointment. Especially cause I thought "hey, this is a pretty good way to kill off Leia, and awww there doing a heart felt scene where we witness her final moments" followed by "....what the actual fuck was that".
Now this is my biggest problem with the movie. Luke's death.
No, not the fact that he died...I fully expected that. But the way it was handled was awful IMO. I think it just could have been executed better, I don't have an answer as to how...I'll have to think more on that. But the biggest problem with it is the fact that we got no heart felt moment, not a single heartstring was tugged on, he simply vanished and that was it.
All that being said. I will be going back for my second viewing sometime after Christmas. I rarely see movies twice in theaters, especially not when I didn't enjoy them... so understand that while I didn't enjoy this movie, I still love it because it is a Star Wars movie and Star Wars is a franchise that I hold near and dear to my heart.
TL;DR- I didn't like TLJ. I felt that the execution of most of the movie was poor, especially when it came to humor. My biggest problems in order are how Luke's death was handled, humor being poor and not that funny anyways, Leia flying back to her ship after she was surely dead. And all that said I'm still seeing it a second time and buying it when it comes out on DVD.
AmethystOracle ยท 13 points ยท Posted at 19:11:29 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I quite agree with all your points.
As a genuine fan of the Prequels, I have come to accept that people have a right to their reactions to the movies though I still find myself disappointed when they try to explain that the films were objectively bad and it isn't possible to like them.
One of the most pertinent themes in this film was the idea of not being too precious about the past. The Books of the Jedi, Anakin's lightsaber - it's important to be able to let go.
FleshPrinceOfBelAir ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 00:04:43 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I just envy you for loving the prequels. I wish I could, but to me they're mediocre. Not terrible, but mediocre. I liked TLJ though, and I can't wait to watch it again in a week or so.
AmethystOracle ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 09:22:40 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
What is really important to me, and I really appreciate is that you included "for me." That's a doorway we can walk through together :-)
For me I found them to be epic and stirring but there are elements I personally didn't feel were executed well. I want to believe in the romance but I felt like it was a little too contrary.
snowballsteve ยท 15 points ยท Posted at 19:28:04 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I'll keep my dislike simple. They added a new force to the franchise. I'll call it space gravity. Bombers (in space) that need a gravity like force to deploy weapons, and cannons that now appear to have trajectory arcs. Star wars barely does anything to earn the science part of sci-fi as is, but that was just too much for me. We now have gravity that binds everything together, 'the force' that binds everything together, and now another space gravity that binds everything together. If they needed so much binding in their universe they should buy some duct tape.
๐๏ธ tyrannustyrannus ยท 11 points ยท Posted at 19:36:40 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I saw an image from one of the visual dictionaries that explained they were launched from the racks by electromagnets
KoolAidDrank ยท 10 points ยท Posted at 23:46:41 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Space gravity was in the OT buddy. Seriously go watch them again. So was space audio and space explosion fire balls. So was humor (bad and good), kiddie shit (bad and good), story beats for the sake of filling time, as well as negative fanboy reactions to all of that.
robsmithuk ยท 10 points ยท Posted at 20:02:05 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Do you think they had Luke drinking the milk in almost an echo of how Luke felt when he met Yoda. Disappointed. Rey and Luke were both expecting a great hero/warrior but instead they find some weird hermit who makes them feel uncomfortable. Btw. I liked TLJ.
MisterManatee ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 02:00:29 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I like Snoke's "Darkness rises, and light to meet it" idea. Rey is the balance necessary to counteract Snoke and Kylo
Caobei ยท 12 points ยท Posted at 20:32:56 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
The simple test for me is this.
Is this series being treated with the same care, craftsmanship, intensity, as say The Lord of the Rings? I want a Star Wars that is close to that. The story, plot, and pacing should be as good or better than the CGI, use of the force or explosions. I don't see that happening yet.
mutually_awkward ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 20:52:42 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Star Wars will never be Lord of the Rings and George Lucas certainly isn't JRR Tolkien.
Caobei ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 21:17:29 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I agree but the original story definitely had a longer story arc. My wish is for them to reach that versus the low-hanging superhero formula.
*typo
ratioprosperous ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 02:23:05 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
"Frodo Baggins has vanished. In his absence, the sinister DARK DOMINION has arisen from the ashes of Mordor and will not rest until Baggins, the last Ring Bearer, has been destroyed.
With the support of the SHIRE, Samwise Gamgee leads a brave FRIENDLINESSSHIP. He is desperate to find his friend Frodo and gain his help in restoring peace and justice to Middle Earth."
๐๏ธ tyrannustyrannus ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 21:40:00 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
nor do I want it to be
Artif3x_ ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 21:42:30 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I'd like to think after a hundred years creative improvement, we could produce a better story than J. R. R. Tolkien. I've certainly read better books than LOTR.
mutually_awkward ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 22:38:01 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Considering that you think LOTR was written 100 years ago, I don't care at all what you'd like to think.
Artif3x_ ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 15:27:25 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
63 years ago. My bad. I bask in the warmth of your regard again.
๐๏ธ tyrannustyrannus ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:36:12 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
oh boy you should head over to /r/TheHobbit
Caobei ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 21:08:32 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I won't even dip my toe in that, lol!
CaptainDawn ยท 33 points ยท Posted at 18:23:46 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Pretty much every thread on this sub is "Well we liked the movie!"
Piss off with these shitty condescending threads.
๐๏ธ tyrannustyrannus ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 18:33:10 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
yeah the thread is "I liked the movie" and 100's of people telling OP why he's wrong
ripplewho ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 01:30:52 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
OP you literally just told us all "that doesn't make either of us wrong" then tried to tell everybody who disliked the film why they're wrong. How you don't realize you're being a hypocritical, passive-aggressive dick is beyond me but I pity anybody that has to put up with your shit irl.
CaptainDawn ยท 18 points ยท Posted at 18:37:15 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Because we're tired of these threads.
๐๏ธ tyrannustyrannus ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 18:38:45 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
you don't have to read them
A-Bronze-Tale ยท 10 points ยท Posted at 23:30:09 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Then who are you making this thread for besides yourself? Just type it and send it to yourself next time you need to get something off your chest.
CaptainDawn ยท 15 points ยท Posted at 18:40:37 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
And you dont need to make another one because the same thread has been made tons of times already.
TechnicallyMagic ยท 21 points ยท Posted at 18:59:07 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Up front, I'm a Special Effects Artist and I got my degree in Entertainment Design because of my love of SW, the years I spent enthralled in behind the scenes books and reading EU novels. The last three films have looked and felt much more like the OT, the performances were good and the art direction and production design work very well. These are huge improvements over the prequel trilogy. Many films are just as convoluted these days, but considering the resources available, these new SW films should have been a lot better examples of the craft. I respect your opinion, but you haven't really defended your point. I'd like to try and explain:
I just think you should consider the idea of "liking" a film, vs. the idea that it's a well-crafted project in the context of the medium. These are two different things, you can like whatever you want. If someone challenges you on that, they've likely taken that to mean that you think it's a good film. You can't argue that with the things you've cited. The main plot points are essentially usable, it's the way they were strung together, and there was a lot of unnecessary fat.
The execution of story elements is sloppy and heavy-handed, too literal and too much exposition in dialogue. The same major plot points (that you explain how you liked) could be hit by a complete re-write, one which flows much better, is more subtle, develops characters more, establishes better motivation, trims a ton of fat, and produces a much more elegant example of film making.
I personally think that considering the resources, the fans and the franchise deserved such a film. That's the source of my frustration.
๐๏ธ tyrannustyrannus ยท -2 points ยท Posted at 19:17:09 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
yeah thanks for explaining that to me
TechnicallyMagic ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 23:28:05 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I think people are entitled to like things that are empirically bad, or dislike things that are empirically good. What we like and dislike is subjective and part of who we are as people, so understandably that's often close to our heart, and we take it personally when it's questioned. With that in mind, the film could be improved technically, and I think everyone would like it more than they already do, or don't. That was all I was saying.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 06:22:23 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
TechnicallyMagic ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 17:43:13 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
This isn't opinion wars, I'm talking about the criteria by which we measure the medium. We use criteria to judge many different things in the context of their own medium, this is no different. Classic, good examples of film making have established qualities, some are deliberate, some were accidents, but they've caused the medium to grow. We teach these fundamental things to people learning to work in the medium, because you must know the rules before you can break them.
Many people like bad films, they can be quite likable. They can be great in that context. All I'm saying is that confusion can happen when people don't separate these two things. Everyone's free to like or love anything, but you can't defend it as empirically good on that idea alone. To try and use criteria by which we measure quality in film making, TLJ does not score that highly. That's all I'm saying.
bcarter12 ยท 18 points ยท Posted at 20:53:02 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
If you accept that we hated it why did you just write a novel telling us how we're wrong?
Gunstar_Green ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 01:36:51 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I accept that you like it.
Dude, you don't need my or anyone else's approval or validation to like a thing. I'll go as far as saying I'm glad you like it. The more people that like it, the more people there are in the world who are happy about something. I wouldn't wish for you or anyone else to feel as miserable about TLJ as I do.
Luke_Lafreniere ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 01:26:08 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Jedi were not celibate they were just not allowed to have attachments so relationships are frowned upon.
Obi1DidntHave2Die ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 02:51:35 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
So if you think that rey doesn't need to be "someone" to be "something" so to speak, why do you think luke kept on asking her "who are you?"
To me it seemed like he was maybe asking her who parents were, maybe he was just startled that someone that age with that much power had stayed off his radar for so long. Interested on your take
daoogilymoogily ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 05:43:10 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Well does Luke really have the same perspective of the Jedi or force users we do? He himself if is part of a lineage of powerful force users and so is the fourth most powerful force user heโs ever met, Kylo. With Rey being so powerful he probably thought what we did.
Obi1DidntHave2Die ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 06:27:34 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Part of me totally doesn't buy the sold for drinking money line. Doesn't seem to match up with the flashback we saw in TFA and yeah it would be cool to have a nobody be powerful enough to compete in the big leagues with the skywalker lineage but seriously, as powerful as Kylo? Doesn't have me convinced.
Edit: what I mean to say is it totally wouldn't be past a dark side force user to lie and tell her something that isn't true (think "I can save the one you love") in order to try and get her to join up. Either way, really well written movie in my opinion.
๐๏ธ tyrannustyrannus ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 13:23:11 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
until that point she hadn't told Luke about her connection to the Force. Luke wanted to know why she was sent instead of an officer in the resistance, like Poe.
Ros96 ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 02:57:56 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I would also like to point out the 'plot hole' that people tend to point out if Luke went to Ach-To to die then why did he leave a map to him. It was the map he used to find Ach-To not left for people to find him they just called it the map to Skywalker as that's where he could have possibly been.
daoogilymoogily ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 05:41:11 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
The man who gave the map to Poe was a guy who worshipped the force so it could be possible that he and Luke found the place together by studying old texts or he simply found it after Luke told him thatโs where heโs going. Really not a plot hole at all, people just donโt know who that guy is.
magnetic_velocity ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 04:43:23 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Solid post!
random91898 ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 09:42:57 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Proceeds to tell people who didn't like it why they're wrong
Pot, meet kettle.
agentfaux ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 11:04:21 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I don't know. Nothing in Star Wars has ever felt as unapologetic as that first scene with hux and poe. You don't make a character completely forget his essence just to make a joke work. It felt...slapstick.
I still loved the movie, but there are certain scenes that make my head spin with questions as to why.
bigtec ยท 9 points ยท Posted at 18:35:35 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Jedi aren't celibate they just can't form connections.
You can like this movie all you want, that's fine but I don't like this movie. A lot of what you're saying I have the opposite opinion.
You liked that whole Luke contemplating killing ben thing but I hate it because it goes against his character in the OT. He bent over backwards and almost died to redeem his father, a mass murderer and Sith Lord and also a dude who cut off his hand and someone he barely knows like at all but now he's suddenly okay with the idea of killing his nephew who has yet to do anything wrong at all?
And I'm sorry but the force doesn't work that way. You cant just believe the force into doing what you want, you need a teacher to show you how to harness that power. Even Anakin Skywalker needed to be TAUGHT how to use the force. Being force sensitive allows people certain passive advantages like faster reflexes and very limited precognition but Rey shows absurd control of the force like telekinesis and mind control then overpowering a way more experienced force user with no training whatsoever. There had to be SOME explanation but in this movie it's revealed that there isn't. She's just super powerful for no reason. Btw idgaf she's a girl, not saying you'd make that argument against me but I'm just putting that out there.
I actually like the humour and I don't mind it Even if it is marvel like.
I don't mind that her parents were nobodies but then why the hell were they even hyped to be this big reveal in TFA? The same with Snoke. why were they trying to make it seem like he was this powerful mysterious dark side user if all he does is die like a bitch in the next movie?
Again you can like the movie and I won't attack you for it but at the same time I hated it.
daoogilymoogily ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 05:45:42 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Iโm fairly certain Jedi consider sex to be a connection.
Edit: actually let me step up and say I was wrong here. Jedi are allowed to have sex, according to George Lucas (makes no sense George), but not allowed to have families or possessive relationships. So itโs basically a swingers club and thereโs an abortion clinic in the Jedi temple.
RomanovaRoulette ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 06:21:20 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Her parents were hyped to be a big reveal in TFA on purpose because they wanted us to feel what Rey feels. Iโm astonished that more people donโt realize this.
Movie 1: Rey is all excited and nervous and in anticipation to find her parents. Sheโs in denial about their true trashy natures and she hopes theyโre great, amazing people who had to leave her for Good Reasons. We feel the same way! Even though Maz Kanata tells her the truth, Rey refuses to listen and so do we.
Movie 2 Part A: Rey has to admit that her parents were actually nobodies. Her childish and naive hopes and fantasies were just that: fantasies. Sheโs been sticking her head in the sand and now that sheโs admitted it to herself, she feels stunned and hurt and upset. So do we.
Movie 2 Part B: Rey comes to accept that she can make her own path without her parents. She doesnโt need loving parents or a famous last name or legacy at all to believe in herself and be a hero. She accepts her destiny and begins to believe in herself. And weโre supposed to do the same; weโre supposed to accept that our obsession with her parents was foolish and pointless (just as Ben tells her โYour obsession with your parents is your greatest weakness, itโs holding you back!โ) and that we had our priorities wrong. Itโs REY who matters, not her parents.
Unfortunately, a lot of fans seem stuck at Movie 2 Part B. They canโt get over it. They seem to think we were tricked when, in fact, we were just mislead on purpose for storytelling purposes. Itโs done in every book and movie (i.e. J.K. Rowling leading us and Harry to believe that Sirius Black is a murderous maniac for much of The Prisoner of Azkaban). Iโve simply never known a bunch of people to get so pressed over what is, essentially, a basic storytelling device. JJ Abrams signed off on every decision Rian made and Maz Kanata basically told us the truth in TFA; people need to face that this was the plan all along.
imissgsp ยท 10 points ยท Posted at 21:49:44 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Nice way of justifying it and spinning it back to me like I'm at fault for somehow expecting a movie to follow its lore. Lmao try again next time bud
daoogilymoogily ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 05:44:34 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Who are Obi wanโs parents? Who are Palpatineโs parents? Darth Maulโs? Mace Winduโs? Who the fuck are Yodaโs parents?!?
RomanovaRoulette ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 06:14:34 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Seriously, whatโs this insane obsession with backstories all of a sudden? No one ever cared before with literally dozens of important characters. Now all of a sudden weโre all gonna die if we donโt know every minute detail of Snokeโs life.
daoogilymoogily ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 06:25:29 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Yeah I always thought that was what the books/cartoons were for. Did people expect Snoke to launch into a monologue about his life?? I mean it was pretty clear what was going on, the fact he had the imperial guard, had that massive ship, the FO being on Jakku. He was obviously some type of Sith hiding in the outer rim.
RomanovaRoulette ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 06:40:42 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Yeah, like the universe is a BIG ASS PLACE. Obviously Snoke just crept in once it seemed like there was peace and then once Luke (his last threat) vanished, Snoke fully appeared. He was a boring and stereotypical alien villain and even if we had gotten his backstory, people would not have been impressed. He had about as much intrigue and gravitas as Ronan the Accuser (which is to say, none at all). And just as Ronan wasnโt the true villain of GotG but Thanos was, Snoke was merely a red herring. He was never the true villain, Kylo Renโs internal conflict and chaos is. Iโm surprised so many people want a boring and clichรฉ backstory on Supreme Leader Red Herring.
imissgsp ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 07:04:28 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Questions no one's asking. Good one. They took subplots from the last one. Shit all over them, created new subplots with new characters no one cares about and then redacted our favorite characters to cameos. But yeah everyone's asking who's Yoda's parents ya right
WalkwayElectronics ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 20:43:08 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
BUT WHAT'S HER MIDI-CHLORIAN COUNT????
Superneutrals ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 02:49:30 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Why can sooo many other movies be criticized so easily but this one cant? If you set up multiple important plot points people are going to expect a journey about it. The first movie set up reys background, the first order rising to power led by snoke, finns defect, kylos background. Somehow we got next to none of that! Like am i watching lost here? Two lines and a scene that literally made no sense to for reys background? No background for snoke and no explanation of any semblence of a goal other than having kylo as a sidekick? Then he gets jobbed without a fight? Finn got no development. Poe got some weird development. Purple haired ladys character didnt quite make sense. Phasma was a major player in the first order - got jobbed again, probably permanently. Fine. Ship chase was so boring. Good lord. The jokes were not funny. Not even compared to the 40 year old original. Porgs... i hate when they pull stuff like this in movies but whatever.
There were great parts! Loved luke, loved kylo, loved the visuals, liked the hacker guy until he had no sound purpose other than having screentime.
The problem i and many others have is the complete denial of any major faults in this film. The sw universe has so much to pull from now, its crazy that you can make a movie where next to nothing (other than luke) of consequence happens.
The movie felt a lot like this passage im writting! Scattered and lazy!
Last thing. Not sure whos idea it was to have so many fake outs in the movie, but it was played out after the second.
Artif3x_ ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 21:39:24 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I'm fine with people's opinions, yours in the first half of this post included. I'm also fine with you ignoring the movie you just watched and making stuff up out of thin air in the last half of this post, in an effort to salve whatever emotional wounds you've taken from reading too many negative viewer comments.
The idea that Rey is not just competent but is super-proficient at everything she tries the first time she does it somehow because she is using the Force the whole time has no basis in the actual movie, which is always clear about when force powers are being used. You pointing out stuff that could be is no more revelatory than me saying that Rey could still be a Skywalker or a Kenobi, and Kylo's just lying to her. I'm ignoring the script and intent of the story when I say that--I know she's not, but it could be!
Rey could have used mind trick on someone before she even met Kylo Ren! She could have woken up Finn after the TIE attack! She could have used the Force to line up Finn's attack! Yoda could have visited her in the Jakku desert and trained her to be a Jedi! Look, I can do it, too!
VTKajin ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 03:54:52 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I'm being nitpicky about your post here, but the only special lineage in SW is Skywalker. Being a Kenobi is equivalent to being no one.
dustytraill49 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 02:35:53 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
For me, it was because much of the acting seemed extremely forced and unnatural. There were undoubtedly moments of brilliance: Laura Dernโs characters jump to lightspeed, Roseโs sister dying, Finn flying into the BFG, the various sides of LUke and Rey and Kyloโs internal battles. These moments were far to few and far between, and to me feel disjointed from the rest of the film.
Iโm currently thinking that this may actually have come down to last minute edits that changed the tone of the film.
Oscar Isaacsโ performance seemed very hallow and unnatural imo. He definitely didnโt seem like someone with an agenda, or the outward tenacity to pull off a mutiny. Nowhere on TLJ did his performance match the tone of his scenes- yet in Suburbicon he was able to command the scenes he was in. The guy can act, and Iโm a huge fan of his, but I wasnโt feeling it. (I did however appreciate how he was basically Maverick from Top Gun. I was waiting for a variation on โyou can be my wingman anytimeโ after he realizes heโs wrong).
Laura Dernโs character was so obviously set up to be a plot twist (cold calculated/suspicious character isnโt actually evil: has fleets best interest at heart / random cop-out) that I couldnโt help but watch her character go through the paces.
John Boyegaโs only instance where his performance seemed to match the tone of the film was where he was going to sacrifice himself for the resistance (he almost got the ending he deserved).
Kelly Marie Tranโs character felt incredibly 1 dimensional to me, I personally could not relate to her, nor could I feel any empathy towards her actions.
Mark Hamill knocked it out of the park, like his Luke in this film or not - the dude brought his A game.
Daisy Ridley and Adam Driver both gave incredible performances.
Decado7 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 04:09:51 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
This is a really good post, particularly what you said about Rey. Some of the other character arcs aside, I did feel that Rey suddenly became this evolved hero, but what you said about Force Awakens was so true.
I haven't come to the opinion that I really liked or disliked the movie. I need to think about it more plus also see it again. One thing that really did disappoint me however is how the Rebel Alliance as I knew and loved it is basically gone - or rather, has been reduced to ten people or so.
It's possible that the story needed to have the slate wiped clean or we'd be enduring a never-ending struggle of the same nature as the movies before, but i guess it will become clear where the series is going when the third movie is released.
It's painful not having a preview akin to the end of a Netflix series!
wetz1091 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 04:56:56 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I feel the same way.
Triple-Deke ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 05:28:03 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Am I the only one that doesn't buy that her parents are nobodies? I think Kylo was lying.
Notworld ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 05:43:08 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
What if I hate that there was no Knights of Ren?
I liked Rey's parents being "nobody", but that's about it. I would have liked to see her get some kind of training. I was pretty much okay with her higher than average power level in TFA (except her using a Jedi mind trick), but other than that it was all okay even if she was a bit of a Mary Sue. But with TLJ they went so far with it and it made her character uninteresting. She's so good and so strong and so great that she isn't even slightly tempted to join Kylo when she has reason to do so that make sense. What was the point of showing us her get pulled to the dark side when she was on the island earlier if she wasn't even going to be at least some what tempted by the dark side.
There's no point in arguing about humor preferences but the reason I didn't like it is because it just seemed out of place most of the time (like the very first scene).
And I get what you're saying about Snoke, but in the context of this new trilogy a character like that does need a backstory. In the OT the Emperor didn't need one because you just needed to know he was very bad and very powerful. With Snoke we need to know where he came from because it doesn't make sense for a being like that to just appear in the context of the OT leading up to the new movies. I like that they killed him, I didn't expect it and it's pretty cool that Kylo is now the main bad guy. It just seems so hollow and lazy not to give us some kind of information on him.
Anyway, I'm not trying to tell you how to feel or say you're wrong, I guess I'm just venting. Oh and I thought they ruined Luke's character. And I hated the casino planet and everything about those scenes. Okay that's all. I guess I'm full of hate. Next stop, dark side.
Doright36 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 08:45:50 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
You may be right but I saw that as more of a territorial thing that the scavengers all had their own territories and you don't go grabbing stuff in someone else's area of claim. It was to me showing the fact that Rey was someone people had learned not to screw with. (IE she can handle herself) and that idiot trying to nab BB8 in her territory knew he had best better back off if he didn't want to get sticked upside the head.
That1chicka ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 09:13:16 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
What he said... really. Agree 100%
GojiFanboy91 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 10:11:27 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I like your style, bro.
findthehalflings503 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 14:44:43 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Doesn't really sound like you want to accept people hated it
๐๏ธ tyrannustyrannus ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 15:18:31 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Because I explained why I liked it?
Bananasonfire ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 15:28:40 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
People are looking at this issue the wrong way around. Rey's struggle has never, ever been about gaining power to do something. Rey never wanted to become a Jedi because she actually wanted to, she did it because her real struggle is to have a feeling of belonging.
Anakin's struggle was about love, which is why the main point of episodes 2 and 3 was hiding and protecting the ones he loved with the power he had, while hiding it from the Jedi Order. Power came easily to Anakin because from a narrative perspective, his struggle was about his inability to protect the ones he loved, not gaining power in the first place.
Luke's struggle was about becoming a Jedi, which is why all the trials and tribulations he had to go through, throughout the original trilogy, was about him learning to become a Jedi. His struggle to gain his power is much more emphasised because that was his goal. He wanted to go out on adventures and defeat The Empire etc. so that's why it took so long for him.
So far, both protagonists for the PT and OT have wanted power to do something. For Anakin it was to protect Padmรฉ, and for Luke, it was to defeat The Empire.
Rey wants to belong somewhere. She spent the best part of twenty years on Jakku, beholden to somebody who didn't actually give a shit about her, with the promise that maybe her parents will come back for her. She leaves Jakku and hopes to find a home with Han and The Resistance, only to have Han snatched away from her, right when she was finding her place. Then TLJ comes along, and she thinks she can find a place with Luke, but he doesn't want to train her, so she thinks that maybe her place is trying to redeem Kylo Ren, but that's rejected too.
For Rey, getting power is not part of her struggle, and it never was. She doesn't want power, she wants to belong somewhere, and she's clinging to whoever she can and whatever she can to give her purpose and somewhere to call home.
In the end, I believe her story will end where she either becomes able to stand on her own, or build her own home around her, taking control of her own life and actually making decisions about what she wants, not what she believes is expected of her.
Fans seem to forget these crucial details, and instead focus on power levels, like we're watching an episode of Naruto/DBZ and all that matters is about how powerful a character is, not how that power plays into the narrative being told.
filipemsbaptista ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 15:49:30 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
You summarized so much and so well a lot of what I feel with all the criticism arround TLJ. I'm with you on liking the movie, actually I loved it. It'ss almost as if all those star wars fans hating on the movie and on Rian didn't deserve the movie they got...
[deleted] ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 23:25:11 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
VTKajin ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 03:51:51 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
lol
tycllns ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 01:01:09 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Snoke was a threatening villian yes but I don't think he was that interesting. I don't think he is dead though. It seemed far too easy.
ironkumara ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 00:21:58 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I'm not even a huge fan of the movie and I didn't give a damn about Snoke. Him getting cut in half and paving the way for Kylo Ren was the best thing he did.
SheCalledHerselfLil ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 02:25:31 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I didn't care about Snoke's backstory. But my feeling is they should have written him out of The Force Awakens, not told me the back story.
Killing him off in TLJ is the next best thing I guess. Glad he's gone. Pretend he never existed.
Chocolate-spread ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 21:07:33 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
For me, I really liked it. There was a lot wrong with it, I could spout the same things everyone has said about the casino planet and some of the humour and I agree that it was unnecessary. But this movie left me speechless on several occasions- the lightsaber explosion, the kamikaze light speed, the Luke fake out deaths, Yoda etc. I am able to look past the problems, and if you hate it then I see your arguments as completely valid.
amishlatinjew ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 01:10:35 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I see a lot of people saying that Palpatine's weak back story (just a few lines of dialogue like Snoke, until the prequels and books) and cheap death (tossed into the Pit of Misery, Dilly Dilly!) are excusable because Star Wars was new and/or fun.
I agree to a point, but I get it. The bigger thing to take from is Star Wars has never been known for it's great writing. Every movie has major plot holes, forced drama, cheap jokes, and inconsistencies within in their own trilogies, let alone the whole universe.
Star Wars has been and always will be about one thing, first and foremost: fun. These are fun movies.
The action is fun.
The cinematography is fun and exciting.
The energy is high.
So many characters are doing so many things, even if it's busy work.
Laser guns.
Laser swords.
Ships with lasers.
Big explosions.
Fast paced vehicles.
Space Samurai dueling.
Magic powers (force)
While there is the occasional plot twist in these films, they typically aren't original or well-written. The movies are typically obvious in their plot.
Some negative things that are noticeable throughout the movies or in the past:
Whiny Characters: Luke in the OT, Anakin in the PT, C3PO in everything
Reused Plot devices: 3 death star-ish destructions (4 if you include Anakin blowing the federation ship to stop droids)
Everyone's related: for such a large universe, so many of the characters that are super important are also super-related, making the universe seem smaller
Plot holes: Every movie has got em. But Star Wars has a lot, and a lot of it has to do with how capable tech and force powers make everyone. They don't often explain a lot of the tech in the movies, which leads to many plot holes such as trees smashing chicken walkers, but large blasters not doing the trick. Or in TLJ, the rebel ships are smaller and faster, yet never escape or get further away and the first order never calls in more destroyers to jump ahead of their location.
There's a lot wrong with Star Wars from a critical perspective. Always has been. There is no "Dark Knight" in the Star Wars universe, meaning a movie that is so good, it transcends the trilogy or saga within which it takes place.
So back to my original point of Palpatine vs Snoke in terms of back-story and death, if you tolerate it for Palpatine, you should tolerate it for Snoke. Otherwise, it may be that your nostalgia is letting you get away with some special pleading.
I'm not saying you are right or wrong for liking a movie. I'm saying that from what I've been reading, a lot of people here are not being consistent with their critiques or arguments for things they did or didn't like.
Edit: I suck at formatting...
bobbyjs1984 ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 20:28:28 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I didn't hate it, I just felt that TFA and Rogue One were much better, especially Rogue One. The acting by Mark in this new one almost ruined the entire movie for me, it was cringeworthy to say the least. And Finn's overacting is awful too, I dont know how he ever got that role. I'm not looking for Oscar performances but damn they're almost B movie quality actors to me.
nobody99356 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 03:11:58 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I think the main problem with Finn is the fact that his entire subplot in this movie was absolutely pointless. I liked him in the last one.
kadeus21 ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 16:06:44 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
The best thing about the movie is that it took risks. If you liked it or not it at least did not play it safe
lame_corprus ยท -2 points ยท Posted at 20:25:10 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
To me it's like the prequels in that sense, but also it's goddamn great unlike them
VTKajin ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 04:27:18 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
TLJ has been competing against RotS in my heart for favorite SW movie.
kadeus21 ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 22:33:21 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
For sure. Prequels were hamstrung by weird vision, terrible acting and lackluster story
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 06:00:59 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
The script for for the actors was horrendous in the prequels, but the story itself in my opinion is the best of star wars, palpys manipulation of the galaxy was great and somehow made politics seem exciting and tense.
benihanasteak ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 16:36:30 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Thank you for this, I've been meaning to write something like this after realizing that, yeah, TLJ was great imo.
mickstranahan ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 01:42:34 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Couldn't agree more with every single thing you said. Well done.
cerebrix ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 00:33:11 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Way to make this post about yourself.
I'm sorry but. I dont know you. Nor do I have to respect you, or your opinion.
respect is EARNED not given.
If you find conflicting opinions upsetting. again, thats more about you than anything else.
if other people's opinion of a star wars movie is upsetting enough to make you post about it.
you don't need to be on reddit. you need to call a physician.
because worrying this much about strangers,
IS NOT NORMAL
tycllns ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 00:59:29 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
You seem to be upset, maybe just take a break from the internet for a while. Maybe go outside or volunteer at an old folks home. We're all rooting for you over here.
๐๏ธ tyrannustyrannus ยท -2 points ยท Posted at 00:38:05 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Wow this thread got crazy
TheBackSpin ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 18:46:45 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Great post and I could not agree more. Just wanted to piggyback on one thought: Rey's parentage. Rey coming from nothing is wonderfully in line with Luke's "The force should be for everyone" sentiment. Obviously this thread of inclusiveness is a running theme throughout the movie, underlying the ending of the stable children. The Resistance will need to draw upon these nobodies to win, rather than rely on old super stars of Skywalkers, Solos and Organas.
A reveal of Kenobi or Skywalker heritage would only undercut one of the film's main themes and would have felt out of place. "The force needs to be for everybody, not just an elite few" "Uh yeah about that, I'm a Kenobi." Um no.
starecontest ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 20:00:21 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Good for you. I hated the film because it is a shit film. If you decorate shit or apply some deeper meaning to it, in the end itโs still shit, so here we are.
VTKajin ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 04:00:16 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I loved the film because it isn't a shit film. See how that works?
starecontest ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 04:04:35 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Yeah, congrats, you like a shit film.
VTKajin ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 04:27:50 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Thanks for the congrats. I am really happy to like a good film.
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 00:23:23 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I was actually okay with the Luke/Kylo story of this movie. What I wasn't ok with was the weird misadventure that Finn takes accomplishing nothing and doing really nothing for the entire film. It would be way easier to explain the seed of love for the rebellion than some weird offshoot story. If anything the main jedi/sith story was the best part of this movie. And sorry but the space sorceress Leah should have just been dead instead of the weird force pull back into the ship. And the whole mutiny thing just didn't feel star wars, but I digress.
GamerChef420 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 00:37:48 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
The Emperor was the true villain of the OT, not Vader.
SheCalledHerselfLil ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 02:20:31 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
You listed some high-level points about the Rey/Kylo/Luke story arc.
Fine. Those are fine. A movie with those overall story points would be well received. Overall the Rey/Kylo/Luke movie was pretty good.
The issue is that the other half of The Last Jedi suffered from horrendous pacing, non-sensical b-plots, and universe breaking changes to the logic of Star Wars.
Things like Laura Dern, Casino planet, Poe Mutiny, Rose, Finn, Del Toro, the space chase, running out of gas...
Notice that you didn't mention any of them in your topic.
Those items were bad. They sunk what could have been a decent Star Wars movie. If you want to completely ignore them, like you did in this post, that's fine I guess.
Me, I guess I'll wait for the fan edit to see what could have been.
HaiImDad ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 04:57:19 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I agree. Comoletely. How do you feel about the possible finn, rose couple? I was really getting into the rey/finn thing. Through the whole movie, they are thinking of each other. Finn was gonna escape the resistance to find her.
GingerWendl ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 05:05:29 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I prefer Finn and Rey. Honestly I agreed worth OP but I low-key didn't like Rose's character.
1206 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 09:36:02 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Nope. This movie held a deep contempt for Star Wars. If you liked it then something is up.
yiggaman ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 18:22:12 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
People should remember that Anakin was a nobody as well. She is extremely powerful for no reason just like Anakin.
Artif3x_ ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 21:56:51 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Except that it's canon that Anakin was immaculately conceived by the Force itself and Rey's parents were "nobody"? How should they be considered remotely equivalent?
yiggaman ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 22:18:35 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
We donโt know whatโs gonna happen yet letโs wait for the end of the story to truly have criticism of whatโs going on
Artif3x_ ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 22:23:44 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Both of those points I've made are canon facts. I'm not sure what you mean to resolve by waiting to point them out?
yiggaman ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 22:40:05 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Iโve only watched the movies and read the Vader comics so excuse my lack of knowledge. Iโm just saying that for now Rey is a nobody just like Anakin was introduced as a nobody but maybe the story will reveal otherwise just as it did with Anakin even though with Anakin it was much sooner revealed
Artif3x_ ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 15:25:55 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Anakin wasn't introduced as a nobody. He was introduced as the embodiment of the Force's will; kinda the opposite of nobody.
yiggaman ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 16:02:55 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Negative
Artif3x_ ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 16:18:31 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Ok, so how many other immaculately conceived nobodies do we have to compare him to?
yiggaman ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 16:19:30 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
They didnโt know who his father was when he was introduced. They found out some scenes later but he was initially just a kid who was strong in the force
Artif3x_ ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 16:21:19 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
QUI-GON : The Force is unusally strong with him, that much is clear. Who was his father?
SHMI : There was no father, that I know of...I carried him, I gave him birth...I can't explain what happened. Can you help him?
yiggaman ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 16:21:53 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
ThAnks for proving my point.
๐๏ธ tyrannustyrannus ยท -3 points ยท Posted at 18:24:46 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
before all the comments about Anakin being the "chosen one"
I think that whole prophecy was BS and there never was or will be a chosen one. Everything Luke told Rey about the Force would back that up.
le_GoogleFit ยท 15 points ยท Posted at 19:42:26 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
You can't just cancel the canon of previous movies because the new ones aren't able to be consistent with it smh
relincuish ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 21:33:53 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
๐๏ธ tyrannustyrannus ยท -5 points ยท Posted at 19:44:36 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I've thought that since leaving Revenge of the Sith in 2005.
le_GoogleFit ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 19:49:43 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I don't know why you would think that prior to the sequel trilogy since that's literally the major plot point of all the first 6 movies and confirmed by Lucas himself. Of course it doesn't make sense anymore now because Disney f*cked that up, but that was the case before. Anyway my new headcanon is that the prophecy only repeats itself over time and that there isn't one but several chosen ones over the time (every time balance needs to be restored basically). Rey is the new one for this time period (this matches with what Snoke says about her and also explains her incredible ability with the Force). Unfortunately this is not official at all but that's the best I found from now
Artif3x_ ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 21:57:54 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Again, you're just making things up to make the story be whatever you want. Spare us.
yiggaman ยท -3 points ยท Posted at 18:39:50 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Anakin being the chosen one is kinda stupid because here we are and Ben Solo actually balances out the force with Snokes death. Thatโs just what happens when people make movies and have no idea it will still be relevant 30 years later. Rei is just powerful for no reason and thatโs ok with me. Iโm sure we will find out more in the next movie. To truly judge these characters you really have to wait for the next 10 movies, books, and comics to come out. Thatโs just how Star Wars is. Maybe Rei was created from a Jedi through the force like how Anakin came to be, then left with a couple of nobodies who sold her. We donโt know whatโs gonna happen yet lol. All you can do is wait for the trilogy to end. No point in getting worked up about an unfinished story.
le_GoogleFit ยท 9 points ยท Posted at 19:43:11 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Same as I said earlier concerning Anakin being the chosen one, You can't just cancel the canon of previous movies because the new ones aren't able to be consistent with it smh. He definitely is. Disney fucked that up but that doesn't change the fact that Anakin is the chosen one
๐๏ธ tyrannustyrannus ยท -6 points ยท Posted at 18:40:27 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
why do people keep spelling it Rei?
yiggaman ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 18:42:06 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Idk But who cares because you know who Iโm talking about
JoyceHopper ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 02:45:37 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
This guy writes a whole comment responding to you and all you do is throw a barb at him for a spelling error. You're incredibly smug.
๐๏ธ tyrannustyrannus ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 13:24:18 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
come on, I'm seriously wondering. I've seen this over and over, I'm just wondering. This thread got so fucking nasty and acusatory
Reisz618 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:44:34 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Rotten Tomatoes approved just fine, the fans on there were split.
JFTActual ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:53:31 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Balance in all things... the force, the fandom, the will of the blades.
StaticSnapshot ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 21:36:40 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I appreciate the thread. I think I'm in the camp that I liked the movie, however I think I'm at 55%/45%. I liked it, came out of the theater in a positive mood, but I have a hard time reconciling a lot of the choices made with this film. Conversely I loved TFA - a fun reboot that was just a romp around the galaxy.
I agree, I don't need Reys parents to be somebody (though if her lineage was historically Sith that would have been cool probably, maybe Snoke recognizes a familiar aura and tempts her with the power of her ancestors, RIP opportunity). It feels like wasted screen time with the "whos muh parents" subplot, though. So much screen time was dedicated to "my parents", and then it's just revealed as "oh, they're nobody". Well, ok then, so you're like most force users. I'm fine with that, but on rewatch it makes those scenes in TFA and TLJ feel weaker to me since it feels like filler.
I think I also personally have a problem with Hux. Since all his accomplishments are off screen, we're just presented with the red-headed step child that is the play toy of whatever Sith is in charge. And, somehow, this guy became the Admiral of the now greatest navy in the galaxy. The First Order feels all the weaker by extension because of this. There is no Tarkin or Krennic, certainly no EU Thrawn. There is no imposing military official that carries a mutual respect with the Sith mystic in charge as with Tarkin and Vader, or the ruthless ambition that we see from Krennic that's actually on screen. We get Hux, who routinely embarrasses himself in front of the people who look to him to lead them to victory. I wished/hoped a strategist would have been introduced, who Hux is directly beneath, and we see Hux as the plaything still but we get his ambition as he tries (and comedically fails) to surpass the person above him. I also think it would have been a stronger point for Poe's character development to have defeat be served to him from the smiling face of somebody genuinely better than him, as opposed to the Holdo "I know General Organa places 100% trust in you but I'm not going to give you any information because I'm not going to give you any information" plot where he at times looks hysterical.
VTKajin ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 03:56:01 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
The thing about Rey that's been established in TLJ is that she's been searching for purpose and wanting to be special. That's why she was pining over her parents so much until now.
Nobuoz ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:20:02 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
You can like it you can have your headcanon with Rey or whatever character you want, just don't force it on other people please the last part of your post about rey and jedis is bs.
MayDay521 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:22:43 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I definitely don't entirely disagree with you on this. Everyone has their own reasons for liking or not liking something. I did love the movie, but it definitely had some glaring flaws, not just coming from me as a fan of Star Wars, but from a general storytelling perspective. Some of those sorry issues being the ones you mentioned.
Snoke: All through TFA, he is built up (seemingly intentionally) as this super mysterious, immensely powerful, and menacing villain. Everyone immediately started going nuts (a little overboard really) with theories and speculation on who this mysterious, super powerful leader of the First Order might be or where he came from. We waited two years for some kind of answers, just to watch him get thrown out Darth Maul style. Star Wars movies have a history of killing off big Villains prematurely. Considering he is responsible for so much in this new trilogy, we need some more answers on him. I get that they can't logically answer all of them in this movie and it fit in, and would be fine if they decide to do it in a book, but they should at least give us some backstory. Where did he come from? The First Order is a remnant of the Empire. Why did they just let this seemingly random person come waltzing in and take control, instead of a prior Imperial veteran? Where does he get all of his resources to run the First Order? What happened to his body? Why does he hate Luke so much in the first place? Too many questions unanswered.
I've already gone on kind of long, so I'll shorten this up. It just felt to me like J.J. set up a lot of stories and mysteries in TFA that Rian just wasn't interested in exploring. The Knights of Ren for instance. Also, how the frick did Maz get Luke's lightsaber? She just basically pulls a Destiny on us and with a"we don't have time, I'll tell you later" then we get nothing, which, admittedly, is more of an issue with TFA. They should have just taken a minute to answer that one right then. They have a lot of questions still to answer.
Also, I feel your arguments about Rey are a little flimsy. Her understanding of other languages could come from her living in a salvage yard among tons of other races, where she picks up other dialects. She doesn't mind trick the junker into giving her BB-8, she more so just points a knife at him and threatens him. She didn't use the Force to wake Finn up, she just shook him awake. The first time we really actually see her access the Force in the movie is in Maz's Castle when she finds the lightsaber, which is right after the First Order blows everything up, which plays right into Snoke's darkness rises, and light to meet it quote. That was such an evil act, the Force needed to amp up Rey's abilities to match and balance the evil. Don't get me won't, I absolutely love Rey as a character. Luke was pretty much the exact same, other than being the child of Anakin of course. Some Farmboy that displayed no real power or potential until he was stolen away on some crazy adventure by some old space wizard. Sounds a little like Rey, minus the old space wizard.
Sorry I went on so long. Point is, I do love the movie and don't really disagree with you at all. Like it or don't, for whatever reasons, I don't care. But to me, I could tell this movie and TFA were made by two different directors. It was blatantly obvious in some of the mistreatment of the story.
jcsatan ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:55:25 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Agreed on everything other than being fine if Rey was a Skywalker. I was of the camp that she was of Kenobi lineage, which I'm coming around to as being a bad idea. However, I would've been insanely upset if she was just Kylo's sibling/cousin.
skywalkerr69 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 02:18:32 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
My biggest thing about how he wrote Luke is that Rey is so heartbroken this entire film. She really needed someone to help her understand the force, understand and find out her lineage, understand this entire mess with Kylo among other things.
Rey was relying on him to help her and when Yoda finally helps Luke understand that itโs ok to fail and the Jedi canโt lose her, he never communicates that to Rey. I know Kylo got an apology from Luke but Rey also needed one just as much. He refused to help her. I felt like most of the movie this amazing woman is in tears just seeking anyone to talk too about the force, Kylo and his stuff and everything thatโs going on.
Luke should have done more and I donโt think a Lucas Luke (if there is such a thing) would have done something like that.
Iโm also thinking heโs going to right a lot of these wrongs in episode 9. I hope.
GelatoCube ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 03:03:45 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
It's well established kylo was subservient to snoke, as vader was to the emperor. The question both had were "why did they choose to?" And with vader they go over it. And in the originals the emperor didn't even exist until empire, vader seemed to be the big bad
starwars_and_guns ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 03:49:14 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
That's because it didn't exist like this in the other movies. There was humor, but each movie took itself seriously (with the possible exception of Rogue One). These modern jokes feel out of place in the Star Wars universe, and I absolutely hate that.
Cimmerian_Barbarian ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 03:57:46 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Donโt even debate it. This is that rare, special time to enjoy a new STAR WARS movie in packed theaters with cheering audiences. Savor it!
prince_of_gypsies ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 04:42:04 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I've literally just saw the movie- are these seriously complaints people are having?! Fuck them.
Although I do agree on the humor. We've waited two years to see Luke's reaction and they just throw it all away for a cheep laugh?
Anyway. I fucking loved every second of it (except for the above and the casino design).
null_value ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 04:47:15 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I donโt believe that Rey is nobody. I think that Kylo was breaking her down and making her feel alone and abandoned so that she would find an identity in joining him.
daoogilymoogily ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 05:39:02 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Think about it, using the force (especially the light side of the force) is all about being able to calm your mind. Where better to calm your mind then the middle of the desert with no one around for miles?
barbandit87 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 06:19:26 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Ahh good, i'm not good with words, but 110% agree with you on everything.
dongwang ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 07:35:12 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Lol
UCBearcats ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 07:36:15 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
All great points OP. My issue with TLJ is the horrible side plot for Rose and Finn. They are both great characters, but everything happening on the casino planet was really reminiscent of Episode 1, and was a pure waste of screen time - time that could have been used to pace what felt like a rushed ending.
I just can't understand how someone thought that was a good idea. Poe's "blow it up" disobedience was already established, and they could have cooked up the transports away/light speed into the star destroyers right away and gotten on with much more interesting plot - the slow slug of the rebel ships being chased was just dumb.
That extra time could have been used to slow down Rey-Luke training, give Luke and Leia more time, or allowed for a battle inside the base on the salt planet before Rey saves them in a much more climatic ending.
I liked 80% of the movie, but that casino planet was the worst thing I've seen since Jar Jar.
flobo09 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 07:36:47 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
The thing is, the 6 previous movies gave us a complete story.
The books / EU expanded on the movies but you didn't need them. You had a complete basic story with the 6 movies. There wasn't one character or event where you thought "where the hell did that / he comes from ?"
With episodes 7-9, it's no longer the case. No political context given for episode 7, no backstory for snoke.
Meaning the story is totally incomplete without books.
And i can't accept that. I will read the book, but that should not be necessary.
This is is reason i really dislike the way the movie was made.
(I also totally disagree with the way they handled Luke, Ray & the Jedi ghosts and think it's totally against established canon but that's a totally different thing and more pov).
sinnerthefifteenth ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 07:41:41 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Omg what a post thank you for summing up how my head felt
AnatolianBear ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 07:58:42 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I am one of those who geniunely enjoyed the movie, but character contrast of OT luke and ST luke is crazy.
He forgave his father who slaughtered innocents across galaxy, destroyed planets and ruled with an iron fist because he saw the good in him.
Meanwhile he tried to assasinate 16 y o kid because he had conflict in his head and was manipulated by snoke.
I wont be getting convinced easily to this one.
RavelJests ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 09:12:00 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Why it mattered for me (and I hope this might explain why some people are so torn about this) is because I usually need some information and backstory for characters to matter. Since I know absolutely nothing about Snoke, I never really cared about the guy and therefore he didn't feel menacing. Which meant that the whole story lacked tension.
I get what the movie TRIED to say. But you need your audience to connect with the characters in order for the audience to root for them, to cheer for them, to feel sympathy for them. That doesn't work when you don't know enough about the characters, because then, they're only names with a face.
Who was Snoke and why should I care about him? Seems he's just some old dude sitting on a pedestal. How powerful is he really? What are his goals? Why did he chose Kylo and how did he find him? I know almost nothing about that, which means that the whole "Kylo turned dark" storyline feels superficial to me. And therefore, the whole big story point with him vs. Rey had no weight for me. Which made the movie boring because I never cared about the central point in the first place.
I don't want to harp on you and I definitely agree that I should let you love the movie, that's fine. But I'd like to shed some light as to why all those missing details aren't just minor plot holes, they are VITAL for some of us to actually get invested in the story. It's what all those big series like Breaking Bad, The Sopranos, The Wire et al. have been doing for the past 20 years. And it's what I've become to expect from good storytelling on the screen. And yes, you can do this in a movie. You don't need to spend 2 hours introducing a character. But you need to give us something to make us care about them.
xxcrazzydudexxx ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 10:09:37 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I didn't like the movie, but not because of any of the decisions that you mentioned. I hate the fact that the entire movie is based around the idea that the First Order and Resistance ships move at exactly the same speed for 16 hours. That is just absurdly lazy writing. Also, Finn and Rose's mission added absolutely nothing to the plot, other than to have Benicio Del Toro in the movie. The twists about Snoke, Luke, and Rey's parents are fine and welcome, but such lazy writing is really disappointing to see in such a high caliber film.
KungFuKenny7 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 10:46:38 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
With the humour it has been decent in the past 7 films (including TFA), the humour with those films was more subtle and normal compared to TLJ where they went out of their way to include it. There were much more โgagsโ which did not fit the movie.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 10:55:44 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
If Rey was using the force her whole life then why was there an awakening?
Superbrownman1981 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 12:56:20 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Vader was the true villain of the OT??! Someone better tell Lucas and Kasdan....
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 13:02:00 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I didnt liked it or hated it I am in middle.
farm_ecology ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 14:20:51 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Ill be honest. I might accept that you liked it, but I dont understand why.
It was such an objectively terrible film, im just confused what about it made you go "ahhh, that was enjoyable."
๐๏ธ tyrannustyrannus ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 15:19:56 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I feel the same way about liking it. That's what I meant this thread to be but it turned into something else
Androktone ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 15:00:29 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Disagree about the comedy. I think the reason people disliked the jokes was that they were too contemporary or undercut an otherwise emotional or poignant moment. I didn't find it too distracting but I noticed the difference
EDIT: was not as terrible as the prequels' jokes
alphamiller ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 18:31:26 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Ugh. Why removed?
xH0U53x ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:47:58 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Well put sir. I fully agree with you.
Answer348 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 21:10:11 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
This is a fantastic post and perfectly addresses some of the common critiques. I wish it also included an explanation for why we needed to spend so much time in Canto Bight...
๐๏ธ tyrannustyrannus ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 21:14:47 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I didn't mind Canto Bight the second time because I wasn't so worried on getting on with the main story. It is good character development for Finn and gives you a reason to care about Rose.
ElusiveZatchmo ยท -2 points ยท Posted at 15:46:40 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I really appreciate your post. You've put into words what I've struggled to all weekend. Thank you.
๐๏ธ tyrannustyrannus ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 15:49:39 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
thanks.
It was shocking coming home at 1:00 AM on Friday and reading the reactions, but I guess that's going to be how it goes.
There was no way Rian Johnson was going to make everyone happy, so he made the best movie he could. I appreciate that. I'm just glad I'm one of the people who liked it.
never_fucking_giveup ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 19:13:53 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
This sub is trying so hard to prop up this movie, guys it sucked ass
Z0mbeyonce ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 23:36:46 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Preach. So many fan boys cant take off the star wars goggles. I wanted to like it too :(
VTKajin ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 04:02:13 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I can fully explain why I thought TLJ was mostly good. Or maybe you just can't accept that your opinion isn't fact?
JoyceHopper ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 02:44:38 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
This post especially is so smug.
"Sorry you guys didn;t get what you wanted (a decent film) but I enjoyed it and I don't care and let me like it and youre wrong."
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:37:04 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
You can like it but that doesnโt mean it didnโt suck
RepineRaven ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 23:26:12 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
People really didn't enjoy it?
Huh...It was probably my favorite Star Wars movie yet.
Everything was executed perfectly! Well, all except Leia flying through space..kinda weird. But even that was cool, we finally got to see undoubtedly that she is indeed Anakin's offspring, too, not just a badass princess/general.
discobob1 ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 20:11:42 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Some people are determined to hate stuff that other people like. That's the rub.
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 21:55:24 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Rey and Kylo are sensitives chosen by what Qui-Gon called "The Living Force". Back in the day there were tons and tons of force sensitives spread throughout the galaxy and even then The Force chose to create Anakin. By the age of 10 he was good at literally everything he did because he was assisted by The Force. Rey NEEDS to be able to confront Kylo. The Force demands balance and if Rey wasn't able to keep up with Kylo then it wouldn't achieve that.
B4rberblacksheep ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 20:36:58 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Hear hear! People circlejerked themselves into such a frenzy this was inevitable.
BlaineAllen ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:48:50 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
The Star Wars movies never really had bad villains...until now.
Snoke is the worst villain by far. Coming into TLJ, he had so much potential and he ends up dying like an idiot.
VTKajin ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 03:51:23 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
That's the problem. He's not the villain, you were just led to believe he was.
Alyxra ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 00:22:26 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
The reason her being a nobody annoys me is because she's just as powerful as Kylo. Kylo is ONLY that powerful because he's Anakin Skywalker's bloodline who was LITERALLY conceived by the force.
You can be a powerful nobody, but you can't be on the level of the Force Jesus bloodline unless you've got years and years of experience over him.
Simply put, if you aren't from a super powerful Force Jesus bloodline created by the Force, you shouldn't be as powerful as one (unless you have fcking 900 years of experience like Yoda)
abrknl ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 01:20:13 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I LOVE you explanations! :) ๐
gosudarstvenny ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 04:02:10 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I'm pretty sure that whatever issues I had with TLJ can be fixed with the fan edit I intend to do, I felt it went on for 30 minutes too long anyways. Every issue except for one: not enough Rey. The only real problems I had were with Canto Bight and the kid at the end.
I still love it though.
Termsndconditions ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 08:55:07 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
"The Jedi were celibate. They didn't pass on their connection to the Force to their kids. Every Jedi that existed was just born that way without explanation, but the Jedi were dedicated to finding them and training them. Had Rey been born 100 years sooner The Jedi would have found Rey as a toddler and trained her and we would not be having this discussion."
This.
hey_muldoon ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 02:22:43 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Dude. Yes.
Thank you. Iโm going to share the fuck out of this.
JahWontPayTheBills33 ยท -2 points ยท Posted at 23:10:05 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
It wasnโt a good movie. Whether you liked it or not is a different story. It kept building up and then deflating without proper climax. Literally nothing happened. Nothing has changed from the end of TFA except that Snoke is dead, which doesnโt matter cause Kylo is now Supreme Leader. Rey better be manifested by the Force or else most of the movie content from all 7 other movies was rendered worthless
VTKajin ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 03:52:42 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
What changed in ESB from ANH exactly?
JahWontPayTheBills33 ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 03:58:22 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Letโs see. We found out Vader is Anakin, first of all. Thatโs a huge one. But youโre not really looking for examples, are you? That was a rhetorical question, right? One designed to make a point without all that pesky effort of supporting your point.
VTKajin ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 04:29:32 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
No, I am looking for examples, so I can tell you what happened in TLJ and how that compares to what happened in ESB, rendering your criticism moot.
We found out Rey is actually just no one and Kylo has become the supreme leader of the First Order. That's two huge examples.
mlozano88 ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 21:27:26 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Regarding Rey's parents: that makes so much sense. People are disappointed JUST LIKE REY IS. Rian you freaking genius. He made us feel what Rey feels. Disappointed in Luke and disappointed in the truth about her parents.
๐๏ธ tyrannustyrannus ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 21:41:07 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
JJ had to be in on that too
Drajel ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 01:30:56 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I love your explanations here. I personally loved the movie. I just wanted to say one thing. The Jedi are by no means celibate. Sex is fine for the Jedi order. Attachments are not. So sex good, love bad. It's weird but whatever.
AntiMage_II ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 04:17:53 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
No, it was pretty goddamn awful. No amount of apologism for the piss-poor writing will change that.
cosgrove360 ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 19:51:56 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Omg I never realised that about Rey.... Thatโs so cool!
Unkn0wn_Ace ยท -3 points ยท Posted at 23:07:51 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
For some reason people love to be cynical, it almost as if they want to hate ep8. I'm with you- most SW films are very fun and enjoyable movies to watch, and I hate that people have to try and dissect them and ruin the movies for themselves and other people.
JoyceHopper ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 02:46:42 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
"Anyone who doesn't like what I like is cynical and filled with hate"
Unkn0wn_Ace ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 04:11:42 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
That's not what I said. I'm saying people are being cynical because they pick out tiny inconsequential details they don't like and complain about them constantly, like "the terrible jokes ruin the movie" unimportant stuff like that. If you complain constantly about tiny stuff like that then you are just trying to hate the movie.
KoolAidDrank ยท -4 points ยท Posted at 23:44:03 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Amen amen! Preach brother! This has been my sentiment on TLJ. I've been baffled by so many people that liked TFA who hated this movie.
๐๏ธ tyrannustyrannus ยท -3 points ยท Posted at 23:59:55 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/617/851/56d.gif
JoyceHopper ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 02:57:49 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
You're so smug holy fucking shit
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 06:02:23 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Its weird when people feel the need to defend an inevitable billion dollar grossing film like its some sort of defenseless child lol.
JoyceHopper ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 06:11:49 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Agreed. Listen, I'm no conspiracy theorist, but it has to be almost a fact that Disney has internet support from some sort of apparatus. Not saying OP is one. But something is fucked up with the force here.
๐๏ธ tyrannustyrannus ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 13:40:48 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
or maybe I just liked the movie and wanted to have fun discussing it without the barrage of insults, brigade of downvotes, and personal accusations.
it's going to be a long 12 months before Solo comes out
PanOfCakes ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 06:26:46 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
Well that was agressive...
Also jedi arent celibate, they can have sex (or the biological variation thereof) with whomever they want. They just cannot form attachments.
[deleted] ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 00:54:17 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
All I'm saying is there a basically only two main characters who were allowed to keep their British accents. She's a Kenobi forsure
[deleted] ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 01:31:46 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
SheCalledHerselfLil ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 02:23:05 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
The context of the Sequel Trilogy was that the Emperor was killed 30 years ago. Then The Force Awakens starts up and there's an Empire and an Emperor again and they're fighting a scrappy band of Rebels. Without a single moment of explanation in two movies.
[deleted] ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 08:42:54 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
a new hope was different
it was lucas first attempt to please the people who followed the books
it works
Ewok_Adventure ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 15:19:23 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
If you want the galaxy to feel bigger then you should be upset that Luke, Leia, and Chewbacca are still around in these movies
๐๏ธ tyrannustyrannus ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 15:22:46 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I definitely was annoyed about Chewie in ROTS
[deleted] ยท -3 points ยท Posted at 03:10:24 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
I actually didn't like the swearing. I felt that saying damn, hell, and even God speed should not have been in. This is a completely different universe and I don't believe of Earth's religions should be brought up.
๐๏ธ tyrannustyrannus ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 13:20:54 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
"damn fool"
"there'll be hell to pay"
"I'll see you in hell!"
NordJitsu ยท -8 points ยท Posted at 19:07:19 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
By the way the negative fan reviews on Rotten Tomatoes are probably fake
๐๏ธ tyrannustyrannus ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 19:11:03 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
let's be serious here, there are lots of people who definitely didn't like this movie.
therinlahhan ยท -10 points ยท Posted at 19:19:26 on December 19, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
To be fair, Rotten Tomatoes loved this movie. It's sitting at 93%. It's the nerds who brigaded it and took it down. Those of us who loved it can't be bothered to make an account and review it there.
shivering ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 01:21:37 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
You're so brave!
Ziaki ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 04:53:28 on December 20, 2017 ยท (Permalink)
My only issue with Rey's parentage is that we wasted two years theorizing and getting hype.