I have been frequenting this sub less than I usually do due to the influx of negativity and mainly just enjoy the few positive posts that are on the sub talking about KH3 while ignoring the circle jerking
I just wanna enjoy talking about my favourite series tbh
So it's okay to attack individuals who are just disappointed, saying they are "circle jerking?" Nah, that's not being toxic at all. It's literally putting a video game above a person's opinion, nothing wrong with that.
I think OP is fine with constructive criticism about the plot and shortcomings of the game but to say there isn't a group of people on the sub peddling toxicity and negative comments about the game is ignorant. That is the very definition of a reddit circle jerk.
Btw, read some of the op's other comments. He's perfectly fine with people with legitimate criticisms being attacked and the sub just being in his image.
Which comment did I exactly say I was fine with people legitimate criticism being attacked with? In fact I made this comment 4 days ago when I got sick of people generalizing others as one kind of people, people can do it but the sub has been filled with much negativity as of late
Like u/Brandon3oh5 said, I’m fine with constructive criticism
You mean comments constantly at the bottom, rightfully downvoted, that barely anyone sees? Sure. That doesn't amount to "circle jerking." If not that, then you are taking criticism too harshly.
I see dozens of posts per day highlighting the same criticisms over and over. We can all acknowledge what the game did wrong without coming off as toxic.
Saying why KH2 is better because of XYZ has nothing to do with how KH3 could've been better. That's all OP is saying.
I see dozens of posts per day highlighting the same criticisms over and over.
That is how you increase your chances of the developers seeing the criticisms. There is nothing wrong with that.
Saying why KH2 is better because of XYZ has nothing to do with how KH3 could've been better. That's all OP is saying.
I see those comments, and how exactly is that not relevant? Is KH3 not a part of the same franchise? Is comparing mediums part of the same series not okay now? Why would you give a pass to something that should build upon its predecessor? Why should you accept less or pay for something you feel isn't an improvement?
It's no different than the people claiming you have to play all games to enjoy KH3. Previous games in the same franchise will always be relevant in discussions.
It's irrelevant because they clearly came into KH3 knowing full well they wanted to end the Seeker of Darkness saga so the story and plot were constructed to complete that story and tie loose ends with the characters involved. You're entitled to your opinion on whether you liked it or not but knowing full well that the next games won't derive plot points from KH3, it is kind of irrelevant to complain for the devs to "change."
Again, I'd like to reiterate your opinion matters here but to say the subreddit hasn't changed from January 27th to now is just wrong. People here, not you, are making it their mission to devalue someone else's positive opinions about KH3. I loved the game because it's Kingdom Hearts and I'll treat it as that. I am not a fan of ranking or comparing things I love because psychologically it'll bring a negative connotation to one.
Did you find the gameplay to have taken a step back? Sure, it wasn't that hard on proud but I thought that the actual mechanics in-game were great. As a strict kingdom key user thanks to the upgrade system, I loved second form and didn't use the attractions at all once I found out I can sift through them.
Technicality: I am not well-versed on these things but I can say I enjoyed the verticality a lot. The game felt very responsive to me and transitions from cutscene to action was seamless.
Can't speak too much about presentation because I'm not sure what you mean but I guess I'm in the "Disney Worlds Lover" camp so I liked them a lot too.
Gameplay is solid, mechanics fine, mostly responsive - just in need of a fair amount of balancing between options. Links, Attractions are too overpowered in general while Firaga spam is optimal for most bosses and Thundaga spam is all you need for mobs.
Presentation would be graphics, soundtrack, world design, etc. I don't think there's any issue with presentation.
Razhork · 44 points · Posted at 16:46:49 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
I don't mind criticism whatsoever, but what grinds my gears is particularly that you're unable to express any aspect that you adore about KH3 without the obligatory response "KH1 & 2 are so much better, here is 21 reasons why".
When I state something I like, I'm not necessarily seeking discussion whether something is better or not.
Honestly this is what I have experienced at times at first when I wanted to say what I liked about KH3, I just want to enjoy KH3 as my happiest gaming moment
X7Strife · 11 points · Posted at 17:05:15 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
It's the other way around too really...When you criticize KH3, people are like "the other KH games did it badly too" and I'm just like "Whether that is true or not, could we pls stay on the topic and judge the game on its own?"
Both sides can be very unreasonable at times.
Razhork · 11 points · Posted at 17:24:53 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
My point isn't directed to the discussion of criticism itself - just that you can't post anything without being scrutinized by other users.
I do agree with your point though. It's odd when users point to older games doing something worse whilst discussing aspects of Kingdom Hearts 3. It does however become relevant when older games are brought up in the discussion, but a game should be able to judged on it's own merits as well.
It does however become relevant when older games are brought up in the discussion,
So why can't the bring it up and make it relevant?
Your logic doesn't make sense. You're asking people to only ever use points that have already been brought up, which means nothing ever gets brought up and the discussion never happens.
Razhork · 8 points · Posted at 18:15:30 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)*
It's more that with recent discussions, a lot of the time if someone says "I dislike X feature from Kingdom Hearts 3" then another user will follow up "Well, X feature was worse in Kingdom Hearts 2" what does that add to the discussion?
Oh man, a much older title did it worse than the most recent title? Then what? Are we in agreement, or did you just want to take a jab at KH2?
It's more in-line with that. Now that I look at my old comment, it feels a bit too generalized, but it's more related to unnecessarily shitting on other titles although they're not relevant to the discussion or adds any value to the discussion.
Edit: Also, it was literally just a example. You could swap "KH3" and "KH2" for virtually any other title, it's just the one that sprung in my head at the time of writing this comment.
Because other people already brought it up. It just seems weird to me to be upset at "Disney World story integration" when it's never exactly been a major part of the series. I understand complaints about lack of FF characters, but again, we didn't see nearly the same level of supposed outrage in DDD (or even BBS), and there are decent enough reasons for them to move away from FF characters- Nomura only ever used "his" FF characters, hasn't properly led an FF game recently (FFXV is very much Tabata's game), and the last of his FF games was released over a decade ago. Furthermore, KH now has its own huge cast of characters to draw on; KH1 had 4 KH-original characters, but by the time of KH2 we had well over a dozen, and by the time of KH3 we had double that.
Or I've seen complaints about the worlds, world diversity, or not having multiple visits, and there are some fair points in there. But many of the worlds in this game are honestly fantastic, and some of the worlds/multiple visits in the earlier games aren't as great as people were making them out to be (i.e. Halloweentown is basically a long, thin corridor of small mob fight areas, a couple rest/indoor areas, and three boss fight locations).
Or people complain about game length, when How Long to Beat numbers show that KH3's normal clear time is within throwing distance of KH1 or 2 (and it has less cutscenes than KH2, so comparatively more gameplay).
Again, while some of the difficulty complaints are fair, KH3 Proud is comparable to KH2 Proud in terms of difficulty. And that's a perspective bought up by people like Bizkit047 as well, and he certainly "knows" the games better than many people here. The big difference is just having more tools early on, so you don't have the same earlygame struggle, but endgame KH2 Proud is no less of a breeze than KH3 Proud. Especially now that the game has been out for a while, if you know about the difficulty complaints and want more of a struggle, EXP Zero is available right away and can provide a good challenge (but still very manageable if you go for chests, keyblades, upgrades, etc.).
Bizkit047 has been more and more disappointed as he continues to play the game. He has voiced this in his streams. The balance is horrendous, it amounts to not much more than Firaga spam being your optimal strategy.
Edit: Toxicity is downvoting when I've said nothing incorrect ("balance" is objective, Firaga is more powerful than Melee) and am very much adding to the discussion. The irony.
Yeah, he's been more vocal about complaints over time, and he's praised a ton of the other aspects of the combat. And the comment on Firaga doesn't negate the specific point above about Proud in KH2 vs KH3 in terms of relative difficulty.
Oh I agree, don't worry. Bizkit047 is incredibly fair about his criticisms. It's main issue is balance, which can be fixed. We just have to hope Osaka sees the criticisms and adjusts appropriately.
Look at some of the fair opposing comments and see all the downvoting. Proof there is toxicity on both sides.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:32:06 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
It's because your opinion is wrong lol. That's the biggest issue here imo. Just because they prefer Kh2 when you say you think kh3 is better they feel like their opinion is invalidated so they attack to make themselves right. It's silly, there no true answer to which game is better.
Heck I saw someone say they prefer DDD to Kh2 lol.
Everyone has an opinion and everyone's opinion is right to them. We shouldn't fight but instead have a conversation and agree to disagree.
Aeric180 · 13 points · Posted at 18:02:21 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
I think most of us who really loved it are just avoiding the cluster of hate for now. If we get a few more super bosses and a Critical Mode, it'll be my favorite in the series!
The magic is amazing, I love how interactive the party is in battle, the Disney characters were A+, the transformations felt great and made it so the keyblades felt different instead of just stat boosts, the plot had some extremely satisfying parts, the worlds were so huge and fun to explore (it really emphasized this for me when I went back to KH1 to do an Anthology playthrough and the world's are done in like 20 minutes lol)
So I think the bandwagoners just need time to clear out, and hopefully the fans will give the game another chance and see that while it's not perfect, it's still damn good.
[deleted] · 18 points · Posted at 17:11:29 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
I adored this game. There were disappointing moments, but the parts I liked, I really freaking liked. I'm just left feeling there could've been a little more of that to begin with.
I think you're letting the vocal minority get to you. There's def a lot of silent people who enjoyed the game to it's fullest. I personally liked the game and had a lot of issues with it. People want to voice their criticisms because they waited so long for the game. Even if it was a misguided wait. I'm talking about the "i've waited 13 years crowd" when in reality it was only a 5 or 6 year wait which is still pretty long. There's still plenty of excited people waiting on the next saga and what the story holds next.
There's nothing wrong with voicing criticisms though. People are certainly allowed to feel frustrated just as you are allowed to not want to see the negativity. I think people just want KH3 to be best it can be and it can come off as blunt or even outright toxic at some points. Either way there's nothing wrong with engaging in discussion about why the game could be better is the point i wanted to get across.
I think it’s pretty balanced between enjoyment and disappointment. Majority of people felt both. Including myself.
& most, not all, of the complaints are reasonable. A lot of issues that everyone always responds have been present throughout the series are especially strong in this title.
[deleted] · 30 points · Posted at 16:35:16 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
I love the base game already, sure some things are lacking like 100 Acre Wood and other things could have be done better but I really love the combat and the dialogue in KH3
I definitely want DLC like Critical Mode and some extra content to do
So a long standing series shouldn't look to improve itself? There's nothing wrong with criticizing long-standing issues. You even admit they are issues. That's what's funny.
Stop trying to make those with criticisms look toxic. They aren't, you are. And I'm someone who gave it a great review: https://redd.it/aoycu1
It's only going to get worse man. More and more people are finishing the game, and feeling disappointment.
Razilup · 6 points · Posted at 17:23:51 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
Believe it or not, it is actually beginning to calm down I think. The further we get from the release, it seems to be improving!
I think the only thing in this game I didn’t like has to do with the end- which in most basic terms, I felt was rushed and that certain important things were just glossed over. That most likely is just a personal peeve, and I can totally accept that.
This game is quite amazing though, despite its flaws! It’s definitely one of my new favorites!!
Yeah it’s weird. Some criticism is valid but I feel like some people are so up at the game’s throat not recognizing any of the things it did well. The negatives were very minimal for me. Give me a critical mode and I’m set to be honest. End game content like an arena and some bosses is also welcome too.
izuuaaf · 10 points · Posted at 16:57:35 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
Welcome to reddit!
drepsx3 · 4 points · Posted at 18:08:07 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
Video game discussion in general. People always hate on something
I wholeheartedly agree with you! KH3 wasn't perfect, and I could name some flaws. But it's not terrible. Heck, I thought it was fantastic! It exceeded alot of my expectations despite the flaws. I've heard some people on this post say that criticism is fine, and yes. Normal criticism is fine. But saying, "This game was awful! 0/10!" and then attacking people who like KH3 is not fine. Fortunately I've only seen that a handful of times. But it's still there which is annoying. I guess at the end of the day it's all preference. You can have negative opinions and heck I'm sure there are people who genuinely hated it or were dissatisfied with it. But don't attack those who liked it. As for me. The only thing I really want now is a NG+! So I can re-experience the game, but enjoy all my keyblades that I've collected!
[deleted] · 5 points · Posted at 19:31:17 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:45:16 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
I think you're right, I haven't been able to talk about this to my friends because they either aren't interested in the series (I still send them Sora selfies) or I don't want to share spoilers.
Yeah they're bringing me down a lot tbh. I mean I take issues with some of the game, but people are being pretty terrible about the whole thing. It'll end up dying down in a few months at the least.
I hope time will be kinder to this game like it was for KH2 (I remember the flak it got, and now it's widely considered to be the best in the series). But then I remember that I once wished the same for the reception of FFXV, and that never really happened.
Well that’s also the royal edition I’m assuming that comes with a lot of the initial stuff that was cut. Also comes with the episode dlc for the boys iirc right?
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 20:26:08 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
Yeah I don't mind having a discussion but some people on here are really off-putting. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and it should be respected but damn some people are acting like their opinion is fact. If i was to say that I actually enjoyed attraction flows there will be someone telling me why attraction flows are game breaking. Or if I said I found the gameplay challenging enough it would trigger a lot of people.
It's like just because they found the game bad they can't see anyone else enjoying it. On the other hand you have some people who won't let you say something against kh or you get down voted to hell. I love this series and this sub but I've been put off recently. Hopefully it will get to a point where it equalises and isn't so divisive.
Meanwhile I'm just gonna carry on enjoying the game as I play my level 1 run while all the salty people run their mouths on here. I'll be back later when it's hopefully a bit more civil.
I know this doesn't apply to the majority of people here and they share the same feelings as me. But unfortunately it's the loud minority that ruin this sub. I don't mind people expressing their opinions but people constantly bashing the game is ruining the experience for me. I'm not saying you should stop or not post if you hate it, I just don't like to read that much hate so I'll be stepping away tbh
GameDial · 3 points · Posted at 20:34:54 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)*
I browse this sub way less now than what I did before release. I just can't stand toxic subreddits where people give me 20 reasons for why my opinion is wrong.
[deleted] · 4 points · Posted at 17:32:23 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)*
Most of it isn't hate, it's criticism. The only "hate" here is coming from those accusing fans with legitimate complaints of being "toxic." It in itself being toxic.
And look, I'm someone who gave the game a great review (shameless plug): https://redd.it/aoycu1
For the amount of disappointment this game brought to a huge majority of us, I would say the toxicity is surprisingly low. Very few personal insults, most in broad terms with someone saying people are stupid for being disappointed. But that's really not that bad compared to other fandoms.
Don't look at negativity towards certain aspects of the game as toxic. I still really like the game but it's extremely cathartic to come to this sub and talk about my problems with the game with other people that have been playing the series for as long as I have.
Look at the front page of this sub right now. There's not a single post that's negative about KH3. In fact there's one that's highly upvoted saying they liked the combat of 3 better than 2.
I think its pretty annoying when you look at a KH3 appreciation thread that got any significant traction and the bottom of the comments is 100% always some dude saying "Don't worry it gets worse" or "KH3 sucks lets admit it". Some people don't know how to live and let live.
No but they exist and are very common. Its pretty shitty to tell someone that they are wrong for liking something or that they will eventually be as bitter as you might feel.
Edit: not you specifically but the commenter, for clarity
You get the same comments on criticism threads that praise everything or attack those with criticisms. It goes both ways, so just ignore it and carry on.
I sincerely think its worse to bring someone down because you're upset than to argue in favor of the game when someone else is criticizing it. I agree both are annoying when the criticism is a real discussion, but telling someone the game is shit when they're just posting about how much they like it is pretty ridiculous.
A response like "KH3 is shit" is certainly uncalled for. But that's because it adds nothing to the discussion. If someone elaborates on their criticisms, and is being calm and civil, there's nothing wrong with it.
Cool, you're okay with him claiming legitimate criticism that hurts no one is a "shitshow" and you think you aren't toxic? What is your definition of "toxic?" Mine is anyone calling out human beings over a video game.
Because there are people who have nothing good to say about the game which is straight up nonsense.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 17:15:16 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
I mostly loved the game, but the ending annoyed me and that has affected my feelings overall. I'm guessing a lot of people walked into the sub feeling the same way. It's also easier to talk about the things that went wrong than the things that right.
What I don't get is the fanatical KH2 devotion. It was a fun game to play, but that's when the plot started to get screwy and there were some really bad worlds like the return to Atlantica and good lord The Lion King. Port Royal was fun if you could get past the contrast of Sora, Donald, and Goofy's bright cartooniness against the real world backdrop, but that was a lot to get past.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 22:09:50 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)*
What I don't get is the fanatical KH2 devotion. It was a fun game to play, but that's when the plot started to get screwy
The plot started getting screwy as early as Chain of Memories the moment Tetsuya Nomura decided to introduce the Organization. I remember thinking even way back in 2005 while playing KH2 (didn't have a GBA, so couldn't play CoM) that the inclusion of the very concept of Nobodies was a terrible decision on his part, and with every single game since then he has only added more and more superfluous narrative junk - the Unversed, the Keyblade War, Dream Eaters, the impossibly vague Mark of Mastery Exam and even more vague Power of Waking, Xehanort and Organization XIII 2.0, and so on and so forth.
KH3 had the impossible task of resolving all of these extraneous plot threads, but it's hard to feel sorry for it when this is exactly what the creators wanted. KH2, in contrast, like u/TheDapperChangeling says, only really had the Nobodies/Organization to contend with. And even then, KH2 did a pretty poor job juggling everything and everybody, but it was the (relatively) early days of the franchise so we were prone to forgive SE. Nearly a dozen games later, and them continuing to make the same mistakes - not just narratively but gameplay-wise, too - is starting to wear thin. Moreover, not only does KH3 repeat the mistakes of the past, it also does by far and seemingly inarguably the worst job telling its story of any game in the franchise.
EDIT:
But I mean the game gave me the first ship I've ever considered legitimate(ly compelling) in the franchise's history (Sora/Rapunzel 5EVER!!!), so it's not all bad, not by a long shot.
KH2 was preceded by two games, so the expectations were lower. It's lows were there, but the highs were so much brighter, due to having only two games to compare it to, and one of those being that card nightmare. I.E. Lion King (I don't know why you have a beef with that), WTNW, Mulan, Twilight Town, there was so much good about that game. More importantly, it improved on everything KH1 put before it. Better combat, more worlds, more options, flashier gummies, everything!
Cut to now, and KH3 has to live up to, what, 12 games? And to be frank, it falls short on a lot of issues. The combat is almost as simplistic as KH1, the pacing is the worst yet, player choice in your 'builds' is just gone, less worlds than KH1. It shines in some aspects, certainly, such as graphics and the sheer size of the worlds, but the fact that it's moved backwards in so many aspects is just awful.
This is, of course, to say nothing about the subjective aspects such as preference in story, or worlds.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 19:43:24 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
The Gummi ship system in II was my favorite by far. It was on rails, but I like the rails and it was flashy and didn't feel as awkward as I. I was a kid when The Lion King came out and I was obsessed with it for years. The lion models were awkward, the voice acting was awful, I hated Sora's design and thought the keyblade sticking out of his mouth was stupid, and the dialogue at the end where Pumbaa's like "I need to make sure people know we're friends or else I might die," followed by everyone laughing was the worst.
Mulan's world felt empty and bland to me, but people here seem to love it so :shrug:.
I really wish there would have been something similar to WTNW or End of the World. Keyblade Graveyard didn't really compare plus there was no reason to hang out there after you go through it the first tiem.
Alright, fair on the Lion King. I just was always so blown away that they actually fucking did it, and how fun the movement was. I've always had a thing for 'quadrupeds wielding swords in their teeth' (edit: Which I'm VERY aware is dumb, but I just love it.), so I kinda dug that, as stupid as it was, but yeah...fucking....Pumbaa...
Subjective aside, the point remains. That's why the devotion to KH2. People are either not aware, or not admitting, KH2 isn't that much better, it just had less expectations on it.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:54:49 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
Er...sorry, I got so wrapped up in venting about The Lion King that I didn't really say that I mostly agree with you. I'm still settling down on my initial feelings on III, but have been looking at II with a critical eye for the past 14 years.
If you think it's bad here, go look at r/fallout. It's an absolute New Vegas circle jerk over there and they'll crucify you for thinking any different.
Please don't tell me you actually think Fallout 76 is a good game? it is literally objectively a bad one, on a technical and content level. You can like it, that's fine, but it is a bad and exploitative game.
Not sure why that matters since I never mentioned 76, and your attitude of your post is exactly what I'm talking about. But to answer your odd question, no, I don't think 76 is good.
...nooo... if I did, go to an earlier version of the page and link it...
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 20:46:10 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
I think it seems to be with anything nowadays that people seem to complain and criticise about something new. I absolutely loved KH3 and think it was a better game than KH2 (vanilla) and on a par with KH1. It’s definitely up there with one of the best games I’ve played and I’ll try to not let the negativity get to me. I also loved FFXV which got a hell of a bashing and I try and avoid negativity as best as I can to allow myself to enjoy the experience.
I waited feverishly for MGSV to come out and was obsessed with the series. That game was a massive letdown because they took out so much of what made Metal Gear what it is. Observing this negativity towards KH3 is confusing to me because it's basically just KH2 with improved everything. I'm not saying it's a better game, but the format is...again I'm saying this as an outsider... Perfect. It's exactly what you expect from a kingdom hearts game. I'm over halfway through it I think (just got to Pirates) and I'm really enjoying it. Actually it's objectively more polished than FFXV and I think that game is hated on too much as well, so I'm really having a great time with KH3.
We aren't going to change each other's opinions but all I'm getting at is I hope this sub can get to a place of positivity soon!
The thing is, criticising a game / being critical of something doesn't prevent this sub from being a 'place of positivity', and promoting that idea is harmful in itself as it prevents honest discussion. We're subbed here because we love the series as a whole; that's why people are quick to judge KH3, because of how much it means to the majority of us. If we didn't care, there wouldn't be so many people giving their honest reviews. If it was any other game, we'd just play it, say 'eh' and move on.
Very few people have been 100% negative. I myself (as I've said in a previous comment on another post) absolutely loved the game/music/dialogue/graphics/etc, but it didn't meet my expectations in other areas; the writing and pacing were exceptionally poor, which was my main issue, but there were a good handful of other problems as well which I won't rehash here.
At the end of the day, making a post to criticise the people who are criticising the game isn't any better, especially just to tell everyone you're going to unsub. Everyone has things they liked and disliked about KH3 (I seriously doubt there's a single person who is 100% one way or the other), but because the game is so fresh right now and because we waited so long for it, it's understandable we're looking at it from under a magnifying glass.
You're allowed to like the game just as much as people are allowed to be disappointed in it. Obviously, given the choice, every fan would much rather be happy with KH3 than let down by it.
What you’re observing is the transition from hype/speculation to experience/criticism. The bar was set unbelievably high, and in many regards it did clear it, but in other aspects it failed.
Since we know the series will continue, we want to make sure our voices get heard. Keep the level design and the unique world stories, they were great! Stop shafting the female protagonists, it looks and frankly is really bad. Hopefully, a Final Mix solves some issues, while others are addressed in the next game.
I like KH3 and The Last Jedi, maybe I'm just easy to please but I think nowadays everybody thinks they have to be critical of stuff in order to feel intelligent (especially the stuff that Disney is putting out) but they end up losing sight of just enjoying the stuff they're supposedly fans of.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:14:17 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
Even as a fan, you should never lose sight of thinking critically about a product. Just because it's from a franchise you love doesn't mean you'll like it or that it's good by default. You can also like something while acknowledging its flaws. Or dislike a product that's critically acclaimed.
Part of being an adult is knowing when to use critical thinking and when not to, for me if I'm playing a game usually it's because I want to have fun. If picking apart every last detail of a product is going to spoil my fun then I'm not going to do that. It's something I felt recently about the latest Pokemon releases, it's a complete regression in terms of mechanics, gameplay and content but I still had a blast with it because I just let myself enjoy it. Obviously you're entitled to judge something you've paid good money for any way you see fit but if you don't let yourself have fun you're always going to be wasting your money. So while you're not wrong some people just want to enjoy themselves without giving a second thought to the technical merits of a product.
Part of being an adult is knowing when to use critical thinking and when not to,
When talking about a financial investment, it is very much appropriate to use critical thinking. Not to mention that is part of the reason this sub exists: to discuss both the positives and negatives of the series we love.
From a certain point of view. I guess I just see video games and movies as art rather than a financial investment but that's clearly where we differ as people.
Ya , I agree with you as well , it's very off-putting . I can agree with some of the negativity, but the thing is, it was like this for the previous games, too - they were ultimately made great in the final mixes . We even saw this happening in 2.8, where they didn't have a critical mode and added it later in the final mix, yet people still look at first releases and expect them to be the same as the finished copies . I feel like in order to make the perfect game, SE normally releases a good one, and then makes a perfect game later as a FM . But now the community has become spoiled with all the nice FMs we have... I believe that ultimately, it is just a vocal minority, but it's still hard to watch them endlessly complain.
You're being disingenuous. It's not toxicity to voice criticism, what is toxic is to attempt to split the community by creating controversy with a topic that accuses people of causing a problem. That is what you are doing.
And to be frank, there is not a single negative topic on the front page. I don't know what your goal is, but I suggest not accusing decent human being of being toxic when there's no evidence of it whatsoever, at least of it being widespread.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 16:45:21 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)*
Were there things that you took issue with anywhere in those games? There's bound to be something even if it's small. Everything has problems, which is why I worded it that way. That doesn't mean it isn't satisfying at all
I never said they couldn't, but he was like "The only way I could picture someone being completely satisfied" and then listed off ways. I just said why it was satisfying to me.
Fair enough. It's presumptive of him to suggest something so subjective is impossible.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 20:29:40 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
But they're allowed to enjoy it. There might be people who loved it and thought it was a 10/10 and saw nothing wrong with it, they're as right as you are. It's all an opinion. The same way you don't have to see their point of view but you have to respect it.
I'm not saying you're saying this but the problem is when people tell others they're wrong for enjoying certain bits just because they personally didn't.
Everyone has an opinion and they are all valid. The problem is when we start taking our opinion and experience as fact and disregarding others who disagree.
No, it's just not everyone thinks that KH3 is perfect, and the fanboys can't stand it. That doesn't make it toxic.
I do love, even in your own little sum up here, 'People disagree with me, so toxic!'
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:47:59 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
A lot of people were disappointed by the game for very good reasons. You liked it and that's ok but the community being disappointed by a mediocre game isn't being toxic it's just legitimate. Now that you don't like the current atmosphere is understandable and leaving is your decision to make.
I think the game deserves the flak it’s getting. It could’ve and should’ve been better. I don’t think the game is going to be seen differently as time goes on, but I guess less people will be complaining about it.
There is just as many people praising the game as there is criticizing it. It’s just that this sub was generally positive but since they game came out more people have come here to discuss it, myself included. These new people are not as positive as the main stays.
Fair point. I do feel the majority of the sub wants to say the game is perfect, no flaws, but the more time passes, the more people finish the game, the more that seems to change.
Not yet, memes and good times still rise to the top so I wouldn't call it toxic, but people like you really aren't helping. Complaining about negativity is still spreading negativity
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 19:34:33 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)*
Idk what's going on with you guys but this game made me HAPPY and now I know some people will say "we have to point out the mistakes in the game so they can improve" but that's all you do guys you ONLY point out the bad sides and don't appreciate the good things in the game and motivate the conpany who did so much effort for this game.
Not gonna lie, I'm not sure who's feeling more attacked, me or you.
"Idk what's going on with you guys" gives me the feeling you think people with criticisms have some sort of unfathomable personality problem that needs to be corrected.
"but that's all you do guys you ONLY point out the bad sides and don't appreciate the good things" - Now you're putting words in my mouth, in other people's mouths, and ignoring the people who, while disappointed, have attempted to be civil and constructive.
So far, I've seen both sides. I've seen both sides attacked with the "Rose-tinted glasses" argument, both sides have members refuse to actually discuss and just throw out insults. If I'm choosing a side, I'm with the "Disappointed' crowd, but I'd rather not be lumped with the people who actually hate people for having a different opinion.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 21:22:33 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
"Some people will say... but that's all you do guys"
Forgive me for misunderstanding, but the way this is phrased makes it sound like "some say they're ok, but you're all bad." You swapped from third person (some people) to second person (you) which grammatically means you changed who you were talking about, and it sounded like you changed to generalizing "everyone."
Not to mention I feel you have it backwards. Most people with criticisms (that I've encountered. I try to gravitate towards the more reasonable posts) are reasonable and only a select few are outright venomous, but the way you phrased it suggests the opposite. And this may just be me, but both the end of your initial post and your response to me feel... rather aggressive.
Yunlihn · 26 points · Posted at 16:42:50 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
I just don't pay attention to the negativity. I enjoyed KH3 like other KH games, that's enough for me.
SoraForBestBoy · 9 points · Posted at 18:54:00 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
I have been frequenting this sub less than I usually do due to the influx of negativity and mainly just enjoy the few positive posts that are on the sub talking about KH3 while ignoring the circle jerking
I just wanna enjoy talking about my favourite series tbh
BirthBySorrow · -4 points · Posted at 20:20:24 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
So it's okay to attack individuals who are just disappointed, saying they are "circle jerking?" Nah, that's not being toxic at all. It's literally putting a video game above a person's opinion, nothing wrong with that.
Brandon3oh5 · 5 points · Posted at 20:45:18 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
I think OP is fine with constructive criticism about the plot and shortcomings of the game but to say there isn't a group of people on the sub peddling toxicity and negative comments about the game is ignorant. That is the very definition of a reddit circle jerk.
BirthBySorrow · -1 points · Posted at 21:15:42 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
Btw, read some of the op's other comments. He's perfectly fine with people with legitimate criticisms being attacked and the sub just being in his image.
SoraForBestBoy · 3 points · Posted at 03:27:34 on February 17, 2019 · (Permalink)*
Which comment did I exactly say I was fine with people legitimate criticism being attacked with? In fact I made this comment 4 days ago when I got sick of people generalizing others as one kind of people, people can do it but the sub has been filled with much negativity as of late
Like u/Brandon3oh5 said, I’m fine with constructive criticism
https://www.reddit.com/r/KingdomHearts/comments/apocwe/comment/egahmjk
And if you’re referring to this other comment
https://www.reddit.com/r/KingdomHearts/comments/aqm5tb/comment/egi03ak
I was more talking about people outright dismissing the entire narrative of the KH series, rather than the KH3 criticism
BirthBySorrow · -4 points · Posted at 20:53:18 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
You mean comments constantly at the bottom, rightfully downvoted, that barely anyone sees? Sure. That doesn't amount to "circle jerking." If not that, then you are taking criticism too harshly.
Brandon3oh5 · 3 points · Posted at 20:57:13 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
I see dozens of posts per day highlighting the same criticisms over and over. We can all acknowledge what the game did wrong without coming off as toxic.
Saying why KH2 is better because of XYZ has nothing to do with how KH3 could've been better. That's all OP is saying.
BirthBySorrow · -1 points · Posted at 21:01:31 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
That is how you increase your chances of the developers seeing the criticisms. There is nothing wrong with that.
I see those comments, and how exactly is that not relevant? Is KH3 not a part of the same franchise? Is comparing mediums part of the same series not okay now? Why would you give a pass to something that should build upon its predecessor? Why should you accept less or pay for something you feel isn't an improvement?
It's no different than the people claiming you have to play all games to enjoy KH3. Previous games in the same franchise will always be relevant in discussions.
Brandon3oh5 · 4 points · Posted at 21:10:50 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
It's irrelevant because they clearly came into KH3 knowing full well they wanted to end the Seeker of Darkness saga so the story and plot were constructed to complete that story and tie loose ends with the characters involved. You're entitled to your opinion on whether you liked it or not but knowing full well that the next games won't derive plot points from KH3, it is kind of irrelevant to complain for the devs to "change."
Again, I'd like to reiterate your opinion matters here but to say the subreddit hasn't changed from January 27th to now is just wrong. People here, not you, are making it their mission to devalue someone else's positive opinions about KH3. I loved the game because it's Kingdom Hearts and I'll treat it as that. I am not a fan of ranking or comparing things I love because psychologically it'll bring a negative connotation to one.
BirthBySorrow · 1 points · Posted at 21:19:01 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
It isn't only story: There's gameplay, there's technical aspects, there's presentation.
But fair enough.
Brandon3oh5 · 4 points · Posted at 21:24:47 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
Did you find the gameplay to have taken a step back? Sure, it wasn't that hard on proud but I thought that the actual mechanics in-game were great. As a strict kingdom key user thanks to the upgrade system, I loved second form and didn't use the attractions at all once I found out I can sift through them.
Technicality: I am not well-versed on these things but I can say I enjoyed the verticality a lot. The game felt very responsive to me and transitions from cutscene to action was seamless.
Can't speak too much about presentation because I'm not sure what you mean but I guess I'm in the "Disney Worlds Lover" camp so I liked them a lot too.
I'd like to hear your opinions, too.
BirthBySorrow · 1 points · Posted at 09:52:42 on February 17, 2019 · (Permalink)
Gameplay is solid, mechanics fine, mostly responsive - just in need of a fair amount of balancing between options. Links, Attractions are too overpowered in general while Firaga spam is optimal for most bosses and Thundaga spam is all you need for mobs.
Presentation would be graphics, soundtrack, world design, etc. I don't think there's any issue with presentation.
Razhork · 44 points · Posted at 16:46:49 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
I don't mind criticism whatsoever, but what grinds my gears is particularly that you're unable to express any aspect that you adore about KH3 without the obligatory response "KH1 & 2 are so much better, here is 21 reasons why".
When I state something I like, I'm not necessarily seeking discussion whether something is better or not.
SoraForBestBoy · 12 points · Posted at 18:54:15 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
Honestly this is what I have experienced at times at first when I wanted to say what I liked about KH3, I just want to enjoy KH3 as my happiest gaming moment
X7Strife · 11 points · Posted at 17:05:15 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
It's the other way around too really...When you criticize KH3, people are like "the other KH games did it badly too" and I'm just like "Whether that is true or not, could we pls stay on the topic and judge the game on its own?"
Both sides can be very unreasonable at times.
Razhork · 11 points · Posted at 17:24:53 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
My point isn't directed to the discussion of criticism itself - just that you can't post anything without being scrutinized by other users.
I do agree with your point though. It's odd when users point to older games doing something worse whilst discussing aspects of Kingdom Hearts 3. It does however become relevant when older games are brought up in the discussion, but a game should be able to judged on it's own merits as well.
X7Strife · 2 points · Posted at 17:38:52 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
I see your point of view and agree completely. I just mentioned it, because this was something that I had just noticed quite often too
Gregamonster · -7 points · Posted at 17:57:08 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
So why can't the bring it up and make it relevant?
Your logic doesn't make sense. You're asking people to only ever use points that have already been brought up, which means nothing ever gets brought up and the discussion never happens.
Razhork · 8 points · Posted at 18:15:30 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)*
It's more that with recent discussions, a lot of the time if someone says "I dislike X feature from Kingdom Hearts 3" then another user will follow up "Well, X feature was worse in Kingdom Hearts 2" what does that add to the discussion?
Oh man, a much older title did it worse than the most recent title? Then what? Are we in agreement, or did you just want to take a jab at KH2?
It's more in-line with that. Now that I look at my old comment, it feels a bit too generalized, but it's more related to unnecessarily shitting on other titles although they're not relevant to the discussion or adds any value to the discussion.
Edit: Also, it was literally just a example. You could swap "KH3" and "KH2" for virtually any other title, it's just the one that sprung in my head at the time of writing this comment.
AnimaLepton · 9 points · Posted at 18:27:42 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
Because other people already brought it up. It just seems weird to me to be upset at "Disney World story integration" when it's never exactly been a major part of the series. I understand complaints about lack of FF characters, but again, we didn't see nearly the same level of supposed outrage in DDD (or even BBS), and there are decent enough reasons for them to move away from FF characters- Nomura only ever used "his" FF characters, hasn't properly led an FF game recently (FFXV is very much Tabata's game), and the last of his FF games was released over a decade ago. Furthermore, KH now has its own huge cast of characters to draw on; KH1 had 4 KH-original characters, but by the time of KH2 we had well over a dozen, and by the time of KH3 we had double that.
Or I've seen complaints about the worlds, world diversity, or not having multiple visits, and there are some fair points in there. But many of the worlds in this game are honestly fantastic, and some of the worlds/multiple visits in the earlier games aren't as great as people were making them out to be (i.e. Halloweentown is basically a long, thin corridor of small mob fight areas, a couple rest/indoor areas, and three boss fight locations).
Or people complain about game length, when How Long to Beat numbers show that KH3's normal clear time is within throwing distance of KH1 or 2 (and it has less cutscenes than KH2, so comparatively more gameplay).
Again, while some of the difficulty complaints are fair, KH3 Proud is comparable to KH2 Proud in terms of difficulty. And that's a perspective bought up by people like Bizkit047 as well, and he certainly "knows" the games better than many people here. The big difference is just having more tools early on, so you don't have the same earlygame struggle, but endgame KH2 Proud is no less of a breeze than KH3 Proud. Especially now that the game has been out for a while, if you know about the difficulty complaints and want more of a struggle, EXP Zero is available right away and can provide a good challenge (but still very manageable if you go for chests, keyblades, upgrades, etc.).
BirthBySorrow · -2 points · Posted at 20:01:44 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)*
Bizkit047 has been more and more disappointed as he continues to play the game. He has voiced this in his streams. The balance is horrendous, it amounts to not much more than Firaga spam being your optimal strategy.
Edit: Toxicity is downvoting when I've said nothing incorrect ("balance" is objective, Firaga is more powerful than Melee) and am very much adding to the discussion. The irony.
AnimaLepton · 4 points · Posted at 20:08:19 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
Yeah, he's been more vocal about complaints over time, and he's praised a ton of the other aspects of the combat. And the comment on Firaga doesn't negate the specific point above about Proud in KH2 vs KH3 in terms of relative difficulty.
BirthBySorrow · 1 points · Posted at 20:13:02 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
Oh I agree, don't worry. Bizkit047 is incredibly fair about his criticisms. It's main issue is balance, which can be fixed. We just have to hope Osaka sees the criticisms and adjusts appropriately.
BirthBySorrow · 1 points · Posted at 20:47:37 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
Look at some of the fair opposing comments and see all the downvoting. Proof there is toxicity on both sides.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:32:06 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
It's because your opinion is wrong lol. That's the biggest issue here imo. Just because they prefer Kh2 when you say you think kh3 is better they feel like their opinion is invalidated so they attack to make themselves right. It's silly, there no true answer to which game is better. Heck I saw someone say they prefer DDD to Kh2 lol. Everyone has an opinion and everyone's opinion is right to them. We shouldn't fight but instead have a conversation and agree to disagree.
Aeric180 · 13 points · Posted at 18:02:21 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
I think most of us who really loved it are just avoiding the cluster of hate for now. If we get a few more super bosses and a Critical Mode, it'll be my favorite in the series!
The magic is amazing, I love how interactive the party is in battle, the Disney characters were A+, the transformations felt great and made it so the keyblades felt different instead of just stat boosts, the plot had some extremely satisfying parts, the worlds were so huge and fun to explore (it really emphasized this for me when I went back to KH1 to do an Anthology playthrough and the world's are done in like 20 minutes lol)
So I think the bandwagoners just need time to clear out, and hopefully the fans will give the game another chance and see that while it's not perfect, it's still damn good.
[deleted] · 18 points · Posted at 17:11:29 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
I adored this game. There were disappointing moments, but the parts I liked, I really freaking liked. I'm just left feeling there could've been a little more of that to begin with.
Happy_Craft14 · 1 points · Posted at 17:44:13 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
This is me
int18wis8 · 9 points · Posted at 18:42:30 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
I'm one of those silent people that enjoy the hell out of KH3. Quietly sending support vibes to you, OP.
FreezingPeanuts · 15 points · Posted at 16:42:39 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
I think you're letting the vocal minority get to you. There's def a lot of silent people who enjoyed the game to it's fullest. I personally liked the game and had a lot of issues with it. People want to voice their criticisms because they waited so long for the game. Even if it was a misguided wait. I'm talking about the "i've waited 13 years crowd" when in reality it was only a 5 or 6 year wait which is still pretty long. There's still plenty of excited people waiting on the next saga and what the story holds next.
There's nothing wrong with voicing criticisms though. People are certainly allowed to feel frustrated just as you are allowed to not want to see the negativity. I think people just want KH3 to be best it can be and it can come off as blunt or even outright toxic at some points. Either way there's nothing wrong with engaging in discussion about why the game could be better is the point i wanted to get across.
LawdUhmusddy · 21 points · Posted at 17:34:20 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
I think it’s pretty balanced between enjoyment and disappointment. Majority of people felt both. Including myself.
& most, not all, of the complaints are reasonable. A lot of issues that everyone always responds have been present throughout the series are especially strong in this title.
[deleted] · 30 points · Posted at 16:35:16 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
SoraForBestBoy · 3 points · Posted at 18:54:29 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
I love the base game already, sure some things are lacking like 100 Acre Wood and other things could have be done better but I really love the combat and the dialogue in KH3
I definitely want DLC like Critical Mode and some extra content to do
Zuluwarrior69 · 4 points · Posted at 16:38:38 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
100% agree and happy cake day btw!
dark1150 · 4 points · Posted at 18:41:58 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
"Give it a couple months, the negativity will die down as the most vocal ones get stuff off their chest first"
That's usually how it goes with a kh main game. Go back to the boards when kh2 came out and it was ragged on just like kh3 is now.
[deleted] · 4 points · Posted at 16:42:25 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
BirthBySorrow · 1 points · Posted at 21:08:00 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
So a long standing series shouldn't look to improve itself? There's nothing wrong with criticizing long-standing issues. You even admit they are issues. That's what's funny.
Stop trying to make those with criticisms look toxic. They aren't, you are. And I'm someone who gave it a great review: https://redd.it/aoycu1
You are causing more harm than good.
TheDapperChangeling · -1 points · Posted at 19:25:18 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
It's only going to get worse man. More and more people are finishing the game, and feeling disappointment.
Razilup · 6 points · Posted at 17:23:51 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
Believe it or not, it is actually beginning to calm down I think. The further we get from the release, it seems to be improving!
I think the only thing in this game I didn’t like has to do with the end- which in most basic terms, I felt was rushed and that certain important things were just glossed over. That most likely is just a personal peeve, and I can totally accept that.
This game is quite amazing though, despite its flaws! It’s definitely one of my new favorites!!
FromAutumn2Ashes · 6 points · Posted at 18:19:40 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
Yeah it’s weird. Some criticism is valid but I feel like some people are so up at the game’s throat not recognizing any of the things it did well. The negatives were very minimal for me. Give me a critical mode and I’m set to be honest. End game content like an arena and some bosses is also welcome too.
izuuaaf · 10 points · Posted at 16:57:35 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
Welcome to reddit!
drepsx3 · 4 points · Posted at 18:08:07 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
Video game discussion in general. People always hate on something
BirthBySorrow · -1 points · Posted at 19:23:08 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
Point to the negative topic on the front page (other than this one). I'll wait.
Jckspacy · 5 points · Posted at 18:07:13 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
I wholeheartedly agree with you! KH3 wasn't perfect, and I could name some flaws. But it's not terrible. Heck, I thought it was fantastic! It exceeded alot of my expectations despite the flaws. I've heard some people on this post say that criticism is fine, and yes. Normal criticism is fine. But saying, "This game was awful! 0/10!" and then attacking people who like KH3 is not fine. Fortunately I've only seen that a handful of times. But it's still there which is annoying. I guess at the end of the day it's all preference. You can have negative opinions and heck I'm sure there are people who genuinely hated it or were dissatisfied with it. But don't attack those who liked it. As for me. The only thing I really want now is a NG+! So I can re-experience the game, but enjoy all my keyblades that I've collected!
[deleted] · 5 points · Posted at 19:31:17 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:45:16 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
I think you're right, I haven't been able to talk about this to my friends because they either aren't interested in the series (I still send them Sora selfies) or I don't want to share spoilers.
KarmaCharger5 · 10 points · Posted at 16:40:37 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
Yeah they're bringing me down a lot tbh. I mean I take issues with some of the game, but people are being pretty terrible about the whole thing. It'll end up dying down in a few months at the least.
Nomar_95 · 8 points · Posted at 16:41:00 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
I hope time will be kinder to this game like it was for KH2 (I remember the flak it got, and now it's widely considered to be the best in the series). But then I remember that I once wished the same for the reception of FFXV, and that never really happened.
ClayXros · 4 points · Posted at 19:01:30 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
I don't understand why, the game is amazing in its own right.
Nephyllem · 1 points · Posted at 20:00:56 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
Well 15 had a slew of issues that weren’t consumer friendly is the issue there.
ClayXros · 1 points · Posted at 21:14:02 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
Oh they must have been fixed I'm the Steam version then cause I've seen nearly no issues
Nephyllem · 1 points · Posted at 21:15:33 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
Well that’s also the royal edition I’m assuming that comes with a lot of the initial stuff that was cut. Also comes with the episode dlc for the boys iirc right?
ClayXros · 1 points · Posted at 09:18:53 on February 17, 2019 · (Permalink)
Yuuuuup
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 20:26:08 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
Yeah I don't mind having a discussion but some people on here are really off-putting. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and it should be respected but damn some people are acting like their opinion is fact. If i was to say that I actually enjoyed attraction flows there will be someone telling me why attraction flows are game breaking. Or if I said I found the gameplay challenging enough it would trigger a lot of people. It's like just because they found the game bad they can't see anyone else enjoying it. On the other hand you have some people who won't let you say something against kh or you get down voted to hell. I love this series and this sub but I've been put off recently. Hopefully it will get to a point where it equalises and isn't so divisive.
Meanwhile I'm just gonna carry on enjoying the game as I play my level 1 run while all the salty people run their mouths on here. I'll be back later when it's hopefully a bit more civil.
I know this doesn't apply to the majority of people here and they share the same feelings as me. But unfortunately it's the loud minority that ruin this sub. I don't mind people expressing their opinions but people constantly bashing the game is ruining the experience for me. I'm not saying you should stop or not post if you hate it, I just don't like to read that much hate so I'll be stepping away tbh
GameDial · 3 points · Posted at 20:34:54 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)*
I browse this sub way less now than what I did before release. I just can't stand toxic subreddits where people give me 20 reasons for why my opinion is wrong.
[deleted] · 4 points · Posted at 17:32:23 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)*
[deleted]
ClayXros · 1 points · Posted at 19:04:38 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
Most of the hate surfaced in the past month, it is dying down shockingly fast
BirthBySorrow · 1 points · Posted at 19:36:03 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)*
Most of it isn't hate, it's criticism. The only "hate" here is coming from those accusing fans with legitimate complaints of being "toxic." It in itself being toxic.
And look, I'm someone who gave the game a great review (shameless plug): https://redd.it/aoycu1
Photo_Evangelist · 7 points · Posted at 16:48:01 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
For the amount of disappointment this game brought to a huge majority of us, I would say the toxicity is surprisingly low. Very few personal insults, most in broad terms with someone saying people are stupid for being disappointed. But that's really not that bad compared to other fandoms.
Don't look at negativity towards certain aspects of the game as toxic. I still really like the game but it's extremely cathartic to come to this sub and talk about my problems with the game with other people that have been playing the series for as long as I have.
Look at the front page of this sub right now. There's not a single post that's negative about KH3. In fact there's one that's highly upvoted saying they liked the combat of 3 better than 2.
MushroomVII · 3 points · Posted at 18:37:02 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
I think its pretty annoying when you look at a KH3 appreciation thread that got any significant traction and the bottom of the comments is 100% always some dude saying "Don't worry it gets worse" or "KH3 sucks lets admit it". Some people don't know how to live and let live.
Photo_Evangelist · 1 points · Posted at 19:05:56 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
Key word there is "bottom". Those comments are not highly upvoted
MushroomVII · 3 points · Posted at 19:25:13 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
No but they exist and are very common. Its pretty shitty to tell someone that they are wrong for liking something or that they will eventually be as bitter as you might feel.
Edit: not you specifically but the commenter, for clarity
TheDapperChangeling · -3 points · Posted at 19:26:30 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
Which doesn't that kinda prove it's a 'KH3 is perfect' circle jerk?
BirthBySorrow · 1 points · Posted at 20:16:55 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
You get the same comments on criticism threads that praise everything or attack those with criticisms. It goes both ways, so just ignore it and carry on.
MushroomVII · 3 points · Posted at 20:24:56 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
I sincerely think its worse to bring someone down because you're upset than to argue in favor of the game when someone else is criticizing it. I agree both are annoying when the criticism is a real discussion, but telling someone the game is shit when they're just posting about how much they like it is pretty ridiculous.
BirthBySorrow · 3 points · Posted at 20:29:08 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
A response like "KH3 is shit" is certainly uncalled for. But that's because it adds nothing to the discussion. If someone elaborates on their criticisms, and is being calm and civil, there's nothing wrong with it.
MushroomVII · 1 points · Posted at 20:38:58 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
Agreed
The96thPoet · 4 points · Posted at 20:14:11 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
Don't worry, it's already calmed down a lot. This place was a COMPLETE shitshow a few days ago.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 20:38:34 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
BirthBySorrow · 0 points · Posted at 20:51:21 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
Cool, you're okay with him claiming legitimate criticism that hurts no one is a "shitshow" and you think you aren't toxic? What is your definition of "toxic?" Mine is anyone calling out human beings over a video game.
The96thPoet · 1 points · Posted at 23:32:38 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
ok
BirthBySorrow · 2 points · Posted at 20:50:03 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
Calling opinionated criticism a "shitshow." Do people really think it's okay to attack people for their opinions? How is that not true toxicity?
The96thPoet · 1 points · Posted at 23:33:19 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
Because there are people who have nothing good to say about the game which is straight up nonsense.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 17:15:16 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
I mostly loved the game, but the ending annoyed me and that has affected my feelings overall. I'm guessing a lot of people walked into the sub feeling the same way. It's also easier to talk about the things that went wrong than the things that right.
What I don't get is the fanatical KH2 devotion. It was a fun game to play, but that's when the plot started to get screwy and there were some really bad worlds like the return to Atlantica and good lord The Lion King. Port Royal was fun if you could get past the contrast of Sora, Donald, and Goofy's bright cartooniness against the real world backdrop, but that was a lot to get past.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 22:09:50 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)*
The plot started getting screwy as early as Chain of Memories the moment Tetsuya Nomura decided to introduce the Organization. I remember thinking even way back in 2005 while playing KH2 (didn't have a GBA, so couldn't play CoM) that the inclusion of the very concept of Nobodies was a terrible decision on his part, and with every single game since then he has only added more and more superfluous narrative junk - the Unversed, the Keyblade War, Dream Eaters, the impossibly vague Mark of Mastery Exam and even more vague Power of Waking, Xehanort and Organization XIII 2.0, and so on and so forth.
KH3 had the impossible task of resolving all of these extraneous plot threads, but it's hard to feel sorry for it when this is exactly what the creators wanted. KH2, in contrast, like u/TheDapperChangeling says, only really had the Nobodies/Organization to contend with. And even then, KH2 did a pretty poor job juggling everything and everybody, but it was the (relatively) early days of the franchise so we were prone to forgive SE. Nearly a dozen games later, and them continuing to make the same mistakes - not just narratively but gameplay-wise, too - is starting to wear thin. Moreover, not only does KH3 repeat the mistakes of the past, it also does by far and seemingly inarguably the worst job telling its story of any game in the franchise.
EDIT:
But I mean the game gave me the first ship I've ever considered legitimate(ly compelling) in the franchise's history (Sora/Rapunzel 5EVER!!!), so it's not all bad, not by a long shot.
TheDapperChangeling · 2 points · Posted at 19:33:31 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
It's actually pretty simple.
KH2 was preceded by two games, so the expectations were lower. It's lows were there, but the highs were so much brighter, due to having only two games to compare it to, and one of those being that card nightmare. I.E. Lion King (I don't know why you have a beef with that), WTNW, Mulan, Twilight Town, there was so much good about that game. More importantly, it improved on everything KH1 put before it. Better combat, more worlds, more options, flashier gummies, everything!
Cut to now, and KH3 has to live up to, what, 12 games? And to be frank, it falls short on a lot of issues. The combat is almost as simplistic as KH1, the pacing is the worst yet, player choice in your 'builds' is just gone, less worlds than KH1. It shines in some aspects, certainly, such as graphics and the sheer size of the worlds, but the fact that it's moved backwards in so many aspects is just awful.
This is, of course, to say nothing about the subjective aspects such as preference in story, or worlds.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 19:43:24 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
The Gummi ship system in II was my favorite by far. It was on rails, but I like the rails and it was flashy and didn't feel as awkward as I. I was a kid when The Lion King came out and I was obsessed with it for years. The lion models were awkward, the voice acting was awful, I hated Sora's design and thought the keyblade sticking out of his mouth was stupid, and the dialogue at the end where Pumbaa's like "I need to make sure people know we're friends or else I might die," followed by everyone laughing was the worst.
Mulan's world felt empty and bland to me, but people here seem to love it so :shrug:.
I really wish there would have been something similar to WTNW or End of the World. Keyblade Graveyard didn't really compare plus there was no reason to hang out there after you go through it the first tiem.
TheDapperChangeling · 3 points · Posted at 19:51:15 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
Alright, fair on the Lion King. I just was always so blown away that they actually fucking did it, and how fun the movement was. I've always had a thing for 'quadrupeds wielding swords in their teeth' (edit: Which I'm VERY aware is dumb, but I just love it.), so I kinda dug that, as stupid as it was, but yeah...fucking....Pumbaa...
Subjective aside, the point remains. That's why the devotion to KH2. People are either not aware, or not admitting, KH2 isn't that much better, it just had less expectations on it.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:54:49 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
Er...sorry, I got so wrapped up in venting about The Lion King that I didn't really say that I mostly agree with you. I'm still settling down on my initial feelings on III, but have been looking at II with a critical eye for the past 14 years.
TheDapperChangeling · 1 points · Posted at 19:58:16 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
No problem mate. I get it.
DJdos_cero · 2 points · Posted at 20:19:44 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
If you think it's bad here, go look at r/fallout. It's an absolute New Vegas circle jerk over there and they'll crucify you for thinking any different.
BirthBySorrow · 0 points · Posted at 20:36:45 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
Please don't tell me you actually think Fallout 76 is a good game? it is literally objectively a bad one, on a technical and content level. You can like it, that's fine, but it is a bad and exploitative game.
DJdos_cero · 3 points · Posted at 20:38:14 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
Not sure why that matters since I never mentioned 76, and your attitude of your post is exactly what I'm talking about. But to answer your odd question, no, I don't think 76 is good.
BirthBySorrow · 0 points · Posted at 20:40:29 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
There's no attitude. You are assuming. I even said it's fine to like it, and that's why I asked: to not assume.
DJdos_cero · 2 points · Posted at 20:41:42 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
Lol, you edited your comment after mine to add that in to not look like a dick. Nice try.
BirthBySorrow · 1 points · Posted at 20:56:47 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
Waiting for you to prove your bs accusation.
DJdos_cero · 2 points · Posted at 20:57:32 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
I'm on the mobile app with no access to a computer. I'll get to your request eventually.
BirthBySorrow · 0 points · Posted at 20:43:48 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
...nooo... if I did, go to an earlier version of the page and link it...
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 20:46:10 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
I think it seems to be with anything nowadays that people seem to complain and criticise about something new. I absolutely loved KH3 and think it was a better game than KH2 (vanilla) and on a par with KH1. It’s definitely up there with one of the best games I’ve played and I’ll try to not let the negativity get to me. I also loved FFXV which got a hell of a bashing and I try and avoid negativity as best as I can to allow myself to enjoy the experience.
Solid_Panda · 2 points · Posted at 21:06:50 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
I waited feverishly for MGSV to come out and was obsessed with the series. That game was a massive letdown because they took out so much of what made Metal Gear what it is. Observing this negativity towards KH3 is confusing to me because it's basically just KH2 with improved everything. I'm not saying it's a better game, but the format is...again I'm saying this as an outsider... Perfect. It's exactly what you expect from a kingdom hearts game. I'm over halfway through it I think (just got to Pirates) and I'm really enjoying it. Actually it's objectively more polished than FFXV and I think that game is hated on too much as well, so I'm really having a great time with KH3.
Thief-Noctis · 2 points · Posted at 21:17:06 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)*
The thing is, criticising a game / being critical of something doesn't prevent this sub from being a 'place of positivity', and promoting that idea is harmful in itself as it prevents honest discussion. We're subbed here because we love the series as a whole; that's why people are quick to judge KH3, because of how much it means to the majority of us. If we didn't care, there wouldn't be so many people giving their honest reviews. If it was any other game, we'd just play it, say 'eh' and move on.
Very few people have been 100% negative. I myself (as I've said in a previous comment on another post) absolutely loved the game/music/dialogue/graphics/etc, but it didn't meet my expectations in other areas; the writing and pacing were exceptionally poor, which was my main issue, but there were a good handful of other problems as well which I won't rehash here.
At the end of the day, making a post to criticise the people who are criticising the game isn't any better, especially just to tell everyone you're going to unsub. Everyone has things they liked and disliked about KH3 (I seriously doubt there's a single person who is 100% one way or the other), but because the game is so fresh right now and because we waited so long for it, it's understandable we're looking at it from under a magnifying glass.
You're allowed to like the game just as much as people are allowed to be disappointed in it. Obviously, given the choice, every fan would much rather be happy with KH3 than let down by it.
Hypno_2-11 · 3 points · Posted at 18:45:18 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
I’m glad I’m not the only one feeling like this
The_Jarwolf · 3 points · Posted at 18:56:38 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
What you’re observing is the transition from hype/speculation to experience/criticism. The bar was set unbelievably high, and in many regards it did clear it, but in other aspects it failed.
Since we know the series will continue, we want to make sure our voices get heard. Keep the level design and the unique world stories, they were great! Stop shafting the female protagonists, it looks and frankly is really bad. Hopefully, a Final Mix solves some issues, while others are addressed in the next game.
Lavitz63 · 2 points · Posted at 16:43:25 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
Reminds me of The Last Jedi
Doriuz2-ImBackBaby · 4 points · Posted at 17:19:33 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
except TLJ is actually bad
DreddShift · 2 points · Posted at 17:16:13 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
I like KH3 and The Last Jedi, maybe I'm just easy to please but I think nowadays everybody thinks they have to be critical of stuff in order to feel intelligent (especially the stuff that Disney is putting out) but they end up losing sight of just enjoying the stuff they're supposedly fans of.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:14:17 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
Even as a fan, you should never lose sight of thinking critically about a product. Just because it's from a franchise you love doesn't mean you'll like it or that it's good by default. You can also like something while acknowledging its flaws. Or dislike a product that's critically acclaimed.
DreddShift · 1 points · Posted at 18:39:09 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
Part of being an adult is knowing when to use critical thinking and when not to, for me if I'm playing a game usually it's because I want to have fun. If picking apart every last detail of a product is going to spoil my fun then I'm not going to do that. It's something I felt recently about the latest Pokemon releases, it's a complete regression in terms of mechanics, gameplay and content but I still had a blast with it because I just let myself enjoy it. Obviously you're entitled to judge something you've paid good money for any way you see fit but if you don't let yourself have fun you're always going to be wasting your money. So while you're not wrong some people just want to enjoy themselves without giving a second thought to the technical merits of a product.
BirthBySorrow · 1 points · Posted at 20:06:39 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
When talking about a financial investment, it is very much appropriate to use critical thinking. Not to mention that is part of the reason this sub exists: to discuss both the positives and negatives of the series we love.
DreddShift · 1 points · Posted at 15:29:18 on February 17, 2019 · (Permalink)
From a certain point of view. I guess I just see video games and movies as art rather than a financial investment but that's clearly where we differ as people.
felover43 · 2 points · Posted at 17:43:45 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
Ya , I agree with you as well , it's very off-putting . I can agree with some of the negativity, but the thing is, it was like this for the previous games, too - they were ultimately made great in the final mixes . We even saw this happening in 2.8, where they didn't have a critical mode and added it later in the final mix, yet people still look at first releases and expect them to be the same as the finished copies . I feel like in order to make the perfect game, SE normally releases a good one, and then makes a perfect game later as a FM . But now the community has become spoiled with all the nice FMs we have... I believe that ultimately, it is just a vocal minority, but it's still hard to watch them endlessly complain.
BirthBySorrow · 2 points · Posted at 19:19:15 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
You're being disingenuous. It's not toxicity to voice criticism, what is toxic is to attempt to split the community by creating controversy with a topic that accuses people of causing a problem. That is what you are doing.
And to be frank, there is not a single negative topic on the front page. I don't know what your goal is, but I suggest not accusing decent human being of being toxic when there's no evidence of it whatsoever, at least of it being widespread.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 16:45:21 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)*
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KarmaCharger5 · 6 points · Posted at 16:54:40 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
No one can be entirely satisfied with anything, but with the sum of it's parts KH3 was still very satisfying.
TheDapperChangeling · 1 points · Posted at 19:34:20 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
I was entirely satisfied with 2.
I was entirely satisfied with other games as well, such as the Middle Earth games, Divinity Original Sin 2, Resi 2 Remake.
So, you might wanna look into a doctor or something if you're never satisfied.
KarmaCharger5 · 2 points · Posted at 19:38:22 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
Were there things that you took issue with anywhere in those games? There's bound to be something even if it's small. Everything has problems, which is why I worded it that way. That doesn't mean it isn't satisfying at all
TheDapperChangeling · 1 points · Posted at 19:39:56 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
Alright, that makes more sense.
Honestly, I do agree the word of the day for KH3 is unsatisfying. Maybe 'Let-down', but I'd never say it's a bad game. You won't find many who would.
BirthBySorrow · -1 points · Posted at 19:25:04 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
To you. Those not satisfied have as much right to voice it.
KarmaCharger5 · 6 points · Posted at 19:26:50 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
I never said they couldn't, but he was like "The only way I could picture someone being completely satisfied" and then listed off ways. I just said why it was satisfying to me.
BirthBySorrow · 1 points · Posted at 19:38:34 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
Fair enough. It's presumptive of him to suggest something so subjective is impossible.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 20:29:40 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
But they're allowed to enjoy it. There might be people who loved it and thought it was a 10/10 and saw nothing wrong with it, they're as right as you are. It's all an opinion. The same way you don't have to see their point of view but you have to respect it. I'm not saying you're saying this but the problem is when people tell others they're wrong for enjoying certain bits just because they personally didn't.
Everyone has an opinion and they are all valid. The problem is when we start taking our opinion and experience as fact and disregarding others who disagree.
dinoconservative · 1 points · Posted at 17:12:19 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
I would not use the word "toxic". Toxicity would be like gas lighting people and organizing raids on individuals with controversial opinions.
I would use the word "contentious".
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:36:33 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)*
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[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:47:05 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)*
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[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 18:53:41 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)*
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TheDapperChangeling · 1 points · Posted at 19:27:48 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
Dude, every post you've made has been saying how the games perfect, and everyone who doesn't like it is a hater.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 19:29:53 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)*
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[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 21:22:25 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)*
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BirthBySorrow · 1 points · Posted at 19:34:13 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
Where?
TheDapperChangeling · 2 points · Posted at 19:24:20 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
No, it's just not everyone thinks that KH3 is perfect, and the fanboys can't stand it. That doesn't make it toxic.
I do love, even in your own little sum up here, 'People disagree with me, so toxic!'
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:47:59 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
A lot of people were disappointed by the game for very good reasons. You liked it and that's ok but the community being disappointed by a mediocre game isn't being toxic it's just legitimate. Now that you don't like the current atmosphere is understandable and leaving is your decision to make.
jflowers321 · -1 points · Posted at 16:52:18 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
I think the game deserves the flak it’s getting. It could’ve and should’ve been better. I don’t think the game is going to be seen differently as time goes on, but I guess less people will be complaining about it.
TheDapperChangeling · 1 points · Posted at 19:28:44 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
The fact that you're at the bottom kind of proves that this guy's wrong. If anything, it's a 'KH3 is perfect' circlejerk.
jflowers321 · 1 points · Posted at 19:38:47 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
There is just as many people praising the game as there is criticizing it. It’s just that this sub was generally positive but since they game came out more people have come here to discuss it, myself included. These new people are not as positive as the main stays.
TheDapperChangeling · 2 points · Posted at 19:41:17 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
Fair point. I do feel the majority of the sub wants to say the game is perfect, no flaws, but the more time passes, the more people finish the game, the more that seems to change.
spoonybends · 0 points · Posted at 19:16:52 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
Not yet, memes and good times still rise to the top so I wouldn't call it toxic, but people like you really aren't helping. Complaining about negativity is still spreading negativity
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 19:34:33 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)*
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BirthBySorrow · 1 points · Posted at 20:10:25 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
So many things wrong with this comment I don't know where to begin.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:24:25 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
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BirthBySorrow · 1 points · Posted at 20:26:35 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
Considering you are practically attacking anyone with criticism, yes you are.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 20:32:32 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
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BirthBySorrow · 0 points · Posted at 20:42:19 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
Then you have selective memory because the majority with criticisms say they enjoy the game, but are dissatisfied with certain aspects.
JET_Zanber · -1 points · Posted at 21:15:09 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
Not gonna lie, I'm not sure who's feeling more attacked, me or you.
"Idk what's going on with you guys" gives me the feeling you think people with criticisms have some sort of unfathomable personality problem that needs to be corrected.
"but that's all you do guys you ONLY point out the bad sides and don't appreciate the good things" - Now you're putting words in my mouth, in other people's mouths, and ignoring the people who, while disappointed, have attempted to be civil and constructive.
So far, I've seen both sides. I've seen both sides attacked with the "Rose-tinted glasses" argument, both sides have members refuse to actually discuss and just throw out insults. If I'm choosing a side, I'm with the "Disappointed' crowd, but I'd rather not be lumped with the people who actually hate people for having a different opinion.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 21:22:33 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
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JET_Zanber · 0 points · Posted at 21:44:28 on February 16, 2019 · (Permalink)
"Some people will say... but that's all you do guys"
Forgive me for misunderstanding, but the way this is phrased makes it sound like "some say they're ok, but you're all bad." You swapped from third person (some people) to second person (you) which grammatically means you changed who you were talking about, and it sounded like you changed to generalizing "everyone."
Not to mention I feel you have it backwards. Most people with criticisms (that I've encountered. I try to gravitate towards the more reasonable posts) are reasonable and only a select few are outright venomous, but the way you phrased it suggests the opposite. And this may just be me, but both the end of your initial post and your response to me feel... rather aggressive.