Heart of Man (KH2), Heart of Worlds (KH1), true Kingdom Hearts (BBS). It's possible that the Heart of Worlds in KH1 is the same as the true Kingdom Hearts in BBS, but we're not sure.
I'm inclined to disagree with the idea that KH1's Heart Of All Worlds is True KH, considering the way Xehanort's Heartless gathered world hearts to coalesce the Heart behind the door (you can see the process in silhouette in the end of KH1 shortly before fighting him). This is in a similar manner to Xemnas gathering person hearts for his Heart Of Men.
If future games are to be believed, the Heart Of All Worlds would need to have a X-blade either formed or near it or something I would think, if it were True KH. Otherwise Xehanort wouldn't need to go through his 5-backup-plans shenanigans to summon it from the depths using the X-blade later in the series
I really bet they did. Shit go so convoluted by BBS. I really think they didn't think the first one would become so big and had to write the story on the fly after the first game.
It has a truly convoluted plot, although the theme and base story isn't nearly as bad. Multiple things have been retconned and changed to fit later titles. Some things still make no sense, and I doubt it ever will.
But it is still fun. It is still nostalgic. The gameplay is still (in most games) really good. And for some (most of the people in this sub, I would reckon), convoluted plot is a feature not a bug.
We are sure. The Kingdom Heats of worlds in KH1 is not the same as the true Kingdom Hearts.
Ansem, Seeker of Darkness made an artificial Kingdom Hearts out of the hearts of worlds that fell to darkness/fell to the Realm of Darkness, Xemnas made an artificial Kingdom Hearts out of the hearts of people, and then there's the true original Kingdom Hearts that used to be the source of all light way back in the Age of Fairy Tales, but it was lost to the darkness, and only reemerges from the darkness it was lost to whenever the X-blade is reforged.
I think it's like heaven. There is one heaven and Xehanort keeps trying to create his own cause the real one is to hard to get into.
Kingdom hearts 1, was trying to use the hearts of the world's and the 7 pure hearts to create one. Which instead seemed just to create an open door between the dark realm and the real of light.
Kingdom Hearts 2 was a man made (nobody) version or Kingdom Hearts made by capturing freed souls from the keyblade. Which ended up being stop and was hard to do.
Now Xehanort is going the legit way of 13 of dark and 7 of light fighting with keyblade and the clash will create the true x-blade. Not the weak one created in BBS. To actually get into Kingdom Hearts.
The door at the end of KH1 was a door from the Realm of Light, where they still were but at the very edge, into the Realm of Darkness. All of the world hearts had been moved into the Realm of Darkness, where they'd formed a Kingdom Hearts. When Xehanort opened the door, the light from the Kingdom Hearts came through first and destroyed him as the hearts escaped back into the Realm of Light, then a legion of Heartless started pouring through from the Realm of Darkness because the door was still open.
We have not seen the true kingdom hearts. We've only seen the Hearts of Worlds Kingdom Hearts(KH1), Hearts of Man Kingdom Hearts(KH2), and the Kingdom Hearts(DDD) isn't the true kingdom hearts either. In DDD, Xehanort himself states that the true Kingdom Hearts hasn't been seen again since the keyblade war.
To my knowledge there's the actual true Kingdom Hearts, which always exists and requires the ฯ-blade to open. It is possible to create a fake Kingdom Hearts by bringing together enough hearts to form it. The Kingdom Hearts from KH1 was made by uniting the hearts of worlds while the Kingdom Hearts from KH2 was made by uniting the hearts of people.
The true Kingdom Hearts is basically the Akashic Records. You don't need to build it, it's already there. It's the supernatural and eternal underlying union of all hearts which together create reality. You can't build it, you can only open the way to it, and that's what the X-blade is for.
The Kingdom Hearts of World's hearts is, you rip out some world's hearts, they clump back together in a moon shape.
The Kingdom Hearts of People's Hearts is the same, but with people's hearts.
This is correct
ELI5 is appreciated, have an upkey
Weewer ยท 13 points ยท Posted at 20:21:22 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
It's actually somawhat explained in the journals in DDD if I'm not mistaken.
KH1 has the heart of all worlds. If you look at the darkness behind the door, you actually see a silhouette of the heart shaped moon in the back, it's very hard to notice.
KH2 has the heart of man. It's the big moon Xemnas was making.
BBS has the true kingdom hearts. It's the moon Xehanort almost summons.
As I recall, true Kingdom Hearts is where all hearts come from, and then they are subdivided within the heart of all man and the heart of all worlds.
There's 3 of them actually. Ansem, Seeker of Darkness made an artificial Kingdom Hearts out of the hearts of worlds that fell to darkness/fell to the Realm of Darkness, Xemnas made an artificial Kingdom Hearts out of the hearts of people, and then there's the true original Kingdom Hearts that used to be the source of all light way back in the Age of Fairy Tales, but it was lost to the darkness, and only reemerges from the darkness it was lost to whenever the X-blade is reforged.
I thought there were 3? One for the hearts of all men one for the hearts of all world's and one true kingdom Hearts for the hearts of all men and world's
Why do you think its called Kingdom Hearts 2 and not 4?
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 05:08:46 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Honestly the less you think about it the more metaphorical and fairy tail like it feels, and I like that a lot more than over explaining details sometimes in media personally (depending on context of course, Midichlorians and Mickey's shirt in 0.2 are the most extreme examples I can think of.)
Artpray ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:21:23 on April 7, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Our statistics show that by this time next week, Xehanort will take up 100% of the galactic population; which is good for my re-election campaign, because as you know, I'm half Xehanort myself!
The other dudes (Ventus) heart rests inside Sora. When Soras nobody was created, the heart of Ventus had influence, causing the nobody to take the form of Ventus.
Meoang ยท 60 points ยท Posted at 01:16:45 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
The true reason Xehanort became one with the darkness. He had to go to Atlantica and learn all those songs. Now he really want to balance all that happy joyful music with his own punk rock band.
Up until today it made sense to me. Roxas and ventus arnt the same, there is alot of xehanort vessels, and Ansem the wise is not Ansem SOD. But I just found out Ventus was a dandelion somehow during the keyblade war.... WHAT!? Seriously im ignoring union cross's story, please dont bring up some long convoluted explaination why in KH3 Nomura.
Having such a lore heavy KH game as a pay to win mobile title was stupid. The game is long winded, repetitive and boring and takes a good 300 stupid missions to get to the good stuff. I can even appreciate re:coded despite it having virtually nothing to do with the overall story but I absolutely hate UX. No idea how people can defend that game.
I can't even defend it. Nor could I coded other than it being very experimental which I can respect. The other games? Love them to death with the exception of COM. An odd game that shows that gameplay and story need to be at similar qualities for the series to work. The story was nice. Besides the fact that Sora wants to fight everything that moves but besides that I liked playing as Riku for once. But now I have DDD. I can play Riku for days.
And SE should respect their fan base enough to not make horrible cash grab games. I've been very on board with the entire series until that game and how badly it was executed. KH3 is no doubt going to be one of the best games ever created but UX has left a bad taste in my mouth.
[deleted] ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 05:18:05 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Thank you. I thought I was the only one who was this frustrated by it.
Square is just awful about this stuff. They're really out here trying to charge people nearly full price for a game that came out a year and a half ago in the Royal Edition of FFXV. And people are eating it up.
Don't get me started on how much I hate the unfinished mess that is ffxv and the overabundance of milking that has been done to it over the past year. Seeing what is happening to FFXV makes me extremely nervous for KH3 and has me debating if I want to support SE in the future.
Ventus being a Dandelion is easy to explain. Basically, he originated in The Age of Fairy Tales, but was catapulted through time to the Birth by Sleep era.
How or why Ventus shifted through time is the mystery that's intentionally being left out for now.
I guess my question is does that add anything to the story? Nomura has plenty of plot threads to tie up by the end of 3 why add this random one to the list unnecessarily also why add more time travel when most people already hate what time travel there is and agree ot makes the plot even more messy
Actually yes, Ventus inclusion in The Age of Fairy Tales makes perfect sense. Why is his Station of Awakening The Keyblade Graveyard? why does Eraqus not want Ventus to know the truth about himself? why did Master Xehanort want to teach Ventus specifically as a student?
Ventus originating from a different era is not Young Xehanort time travelling messy. Ventus is basically Captain America. Captain America isn't from the present but circumstances got him to the present timeline. I struggle to understand why Ventus being in the past is "messy".
How does he time travel. According to KH time travel rules you have to have a body and present in that future. Is there an old ventus? If not how has he not aged in all this time? How is he the only dandelion who knows how to time travel? How come before Xehanort splits his heart and he loses memories he states he isnt strong enough to fight all the heartless xehanort send his way if he is an ancient keyblade weilder who was supposed to be a dandelion leader? Did his time travel wipe his memories? Also why is Lauriam a keyblade weilder but his nobody cant use a keyblade like soras nobody can? A lot of questions are added that need to be answered and for virtually no reason other then mystery. I was fine with this for a lot of other things in the series but adding this plot thread so late into the game cycle and in a microtransaction mobile game makes me lean toward ignoring the plot thread altogther. I was fine with Ventus being some young guy with a predisposition to weild a keyblade that xehanort just finds. He doesnt need a long convoluted backstory.
Jesting aside, that's fairly comprehensive for a rather random plot thread on Nomura's part. If he actually resolves all of this in KH3, I will genuinely be impressed.
(Also, on a side note regarding the rules of time travelling...I feel like they're broken all the time and are too complex.)
The Kingdom Hearts series was actually pretty straight forward for the MOST part with some confusing elements here and there. Kingdom Hearts Dream Drop Distance ruined THAT however.
How was ddd mostly about answering plot holes lol, that title opened up an entirely new bag of worms. The confusion about KH2, in my opinion, mostly came from the abundance of people who played the game without playing chains first since a lot of people thought it was a side story.
BbS was the title that brought the confusion over if Ventus and Roxas were the same people, who Vanitas was, and furthered the confusion about who heartless ansem and Xemnas were because they turn out to be kinda Terra and kinda Xehanort (I'm still slightly confused on this one myself). DDD was the title that brought up some weird time travel and shoehorned in a bunch of things at the very end of the game like organization 13 being able to grow hearts, how they were all turning into Xehanort, and some other weird things like how kid Xehanort was able to time travel by leaving his heart behind. Like, DDD and Bbs, answered some plotholes from kh2 for sure, and I liked the games, but in my personal opinion they made the story a bit more convoluted.
The confusion about KH2, in my opinion, mostly came from the abundance of people who played the game without playing chains first since a lot of people thought it was a side story.
I didn't say confusion, I said plot holes. KH2 opened up a ton of plot holes by changing the story about keyblades, giving riku two keyblades, having Riku fall to the darkness again, indicating that the keyblade warriors of the past weren't that long ago, etc. Birth by Sleep and Re:coded fixed most of those, DDD fixed a little bit more (about what Xehanort's deal was and why the Organization was following a stupid plan).
Okay but minor plot holes like that don't make the story exceedingly difficult to follow, which is what the original comment was talking about. Assuming the person played com, kh2 has a fairly straight forward plot. Once you jump in, you wonder who tf Roxas is, which eventually gets answered in the game itself. Everything else is relatively simple. Org 13 is attacking and want hearts, they are the other version of heartless, Xemnas is the nobody of the dude who Ansem was a heartless of, go stop their evil because you're the hero. There's barely any question of why people look alike because there are no obnoxious copy characters like all the xehanorts, ventus, and vanitas.
The organization following a stupid plan wasn't a plot hole of kh2. In that game, the organizations plan wasn't even stupid, it was just evil i guess. It was ddd that introduced that nobodies can grow hearts, which is the reason the organizations plan was stupid. Then they introduced the convoluted time travel sub plot that explained why they were following the stupid plan, while at the same time pretty much making a lot of the stuff that happen prior to ddd insignificant because so much of it was apparently planned.
KH2 had plot holes but that didn't stop the majority of the story from being relatively straight foward. DDD and bbs fixing small plotholes doesn't give it a free pass for introducing a bunch of obnoxious stuff that confused the vast majority of people playing the games.
The organization following a stupid plan wasn't a plot hole of kh2. In that game, the organizations plan wasn't even stupid, it was just evil i guess.
Not really. You're shown from the beginning that there's a peaceful way for a Nobody to regain its heart, which makes all the "we have to start fights" stuff not make sense.
Okay but minor plot holes like that don't make the story exceedingly difficult to follow, which is what the original comment was talking about.
I guess, sure. It still introduced a lot of inconsistencies.
Not really. You're shown from the beginning that there's a peaceful way for a Nobody to regain its heart, which makes all the "we have to start fights" stuff not make sense.
What way are you talking about?
And yeah I agree with you that Kh2 had some inconsistencies.
In fairness, Re:coded does make that worse, by showing that Yen Sid and Mickey were aware of it, and thus that it was possible to figure this out on their own.
I thought to time travel you had to leave your body behind, hence hooded man at the door of Destiny Island (which I'm pretty sure is Ansem). Then you can go and grab people from other times.
Well throw in Sora and Vanitas and say "Not relatives" and it would be perfect.
Generally speaking Young and Master ARE truly the same character. One is a young man the other is an elderly bastard.
This same logic applies to Terranort, Ansem Seeker and Xenmas, since they're from the same source body. The biggest question is that Young Xehanort looks like Terra despite not being biologically related. Unless we're suppose to assume that possessing somebody's body through the heart also causes some level of physical transformation aside from hair and eyes.
Beejsbj ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 04:23:44 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Well ven's heart in sora's body made roxas look like ven
Well obviously they're different, Roxas smiles,Ventus doesn't.
Those guys on the bottom though.....its like the designers just got lazy and copy/pasted everything. Look at all the white hair and one case of baldness.
Terrible.
[deleted] ยท 32 points ยท Posted at 18:35:33 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
But all you need to know is this evil old man keeps trying to open a gateway to the soul of the universe for unlimited power and a bunch of kids keep stopping him
[deleted] ยท 14 points ยท Posted at 22:14:04 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
[deleted] ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 02:50:20 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Congratulations! You're now about on the same level as half of the people who have played all of the game!
The Xehanort's look more like a family. Xehanort BBS is the grandpa, Xemnas/Ansem are his two sons. Then Terranort and Young Xehanort are his grandsons.
I think the Roxas and Ventus thing wouldโve been easier to accept if they at least had dramatically different clothing. At a first glance in the games it takes a second to differentiate them cause the color schemes are so similar.
Shouldโve given Ventus maybe just a mostly black outfit as a complete contrast to Roxasโs mostly white.
And yes I know that Venโs outfit is meant to represent the duality of Light and Dark, but that can be given up for the sake that he looks identical to another character.
[deleted] ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 23:22:29 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Me explaining the origin of my son's name to confused non game type people: "It's a video game with Disney characters and a bunch of pointy hair people." Anything more than that and they start getting super confused.
I would argue that people seem to overcomplicate DDD than it actually is. To sort of summarize time travel, look up stable time loop. What clicked for me was the tv tropes page. Specifically the picture.
Now some extra rules. You have to get rid of your body to do it. And anything you change is forgotten in memory but not by heart. So your fate is altered. Not changed. If your destined to die, it won't change. I think you may change how you die(or how the fate spells out) but even then technically you never did since it's always has been.
So in another sense time travel doesn't work in the traditional sense. If I go back in time and tell myself how to tie my shoes and go back, I have begun a loop. Forget the timeline that started it. Now no matter what, I get help from my future self to tie my shoes and grow up to time travel to tell myself to tie my shoes. Hell forget that there was a timeline that even started it as with this its just always has been this way.
In KH logic, I won't remember being told that by my future self or about time travel but the act of me being helped decided two things: I will now work on tying my shoes and I will go back in time(and also get rid of my body) to help me tie my shoes so the loop can continue. If I don't got back then I start a paradox. What happens during a paradox? Well either shit just goes on like normal or everything explodes. In KH we don't know what happens in paradoxes or if they are even possible.
Ventus wasn't even introduced yet when KH2 came out though. Roxas looks like Ventus because Ventus' heart is resting inside Sora; so when Sora became a Nobody, it ended up looking like what was inside him.
The 5 Students of the most powerful Keyblade Master go to war with eachother, each forming their own private army, destroying the universe.(Game: Kingdom Hearts X)
The pure hearted children of the world then rebuild universe.
A long time later two keyblade masters (The good Master Eraquis, and the evil Master Xehanort) are teaching their students (Eraquis has Aqua and Terra | Xehanort has Ventus)
Xehanort splits his student's heart into a dark side (Vanitas) and a light side (Ventus) in order to form the ultimate keyblade (The X blade) to unlock true Kingdom Hearts.
Ven, Aqua and Terra stop him and Vanitas. (Game: Birth By Sleep) and Master Xehanort possesses Terra as a last ditch effort to survive (Forming the fan named "Terranort")
Terranort wakes up on a world with amnesia in the care of a kind scientist named "Ansem the Wise" on a world called Radiant Garden (Hollow Bastion).
Ventus his damaged heart fused with a little boy named Sora to heal.
Aqua gets lost in the realm of darkness (Aqua's time in the Realm of Darkness is the main storyline of the Game: KH 2.8)
Fast-forward many years and a new trio of young heros (Sora, Riku, Kairi) get chosen to wield keyblades and have to stop the posessed Terra/Xehanort who has stolen the kind scientist Ansem's identity, then ripped his own heart and body into two separate evil entities named "Ansem, Seeker of Darkness" and "Xenmas" (with his 13 henchmen, Organization 13), respectively. Both with amnesia but obsessed with finding or creating Kingdom Hearts.
At some point Kairi's heart gets put into Sora. Sora gets turned into a Heartless, which forms a Nobody (Roxas), and releases Kairi's heart, forming the glitch "memory witch" Nobody, Namine.
Namine takes Sora's memories and makes them into another person (Xion) Sora forgets all of Castle Oblivion (Game: Chain of Memories) but Xion dies.
Roxas works for Organization 13 but is recaptured and Sora is put to sleep in a giant machine to reintegrate him. Namine is lso reintegrated back into Kairi.
After defeating both Terranort entities, the new trio (Sora, Kairi, Riku) and their allies (Yen Sid, Mickey Mouse, Axel, various Disney characters, etc) discover the two halves of Posessed Terra/Xehanort have reformed once again and he is forming an evil organization consisting of 13 of himself from various time periods(Game: Dream Drop Distance), so they decide they must rescue the original trio (Ventus, Aqua, and Terra), and anyone else that could be an ally (Roxas and Namine, Xion) to stop him once and for all (Game: KH3).
Carlver ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 22:42:30 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Thanks for the explanation, that was great. Just a question, if roxas is ventus nobody, and namine is kairi's nobody, then we still don't have sora's nobody right?
I believe Roxas is Sora's Nobody. Nobodies' names come from their original name scrambled with the letter X so
Sora + X = Roxas,
Lea + X = Axel,
Ansem + X = Xemnas.
Xion is the only outlier because she's technically a replica of Roxas and doesn't have an actual original counterpart. I think the only reason Roxas looks so much like Ventus is because Sora's heart was fused with Ventus' at the time.
Can't remember how much of this is real or just fan theory, but I think Xion is basically Sora's memories of Kairi that Namine steals.
Xion's non-X name is "No. i". In mathematics, i often refers to the "imaginary number" so it's a sort of reference to the fact that Xion doesn't really exist... even more so that regular Nobodies.
[deleted] ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 23:42:42 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
No, Roxas is Sora's nobody. He looks like Ventus because he has Ventus' heart. Having Ven's heart doesn't make him Ven, though. In the KH universe, a person consists of a body, a heart, and a soul/spirit/mind. The heart is the part containing a person's inner light and darkness (i.e. emotions and moral compass).
The soul is the life force, personality, and individuality. Ventus' soul is still inside his body, and Roxas has his own soul unique to himself (which is why in DDD Sora tells Roxas he deserves to exist). The body is just the physical vessel for the soul and heart.
In a strange turn of events, Roxas has Sora's body, which looks like Ventus' but actually isn't Ven's body. When Kairi turns Sora back into a person in KH1, he technically doesn't have a body anymore. This really showcases how Nomura is basically making everything up as he goes, and it's not worth trying to think too deeply out.
I'm not even sure if "Sora technically doesn't have a body thing" was ever confirmed by Nomura\anyone who has the authority to confirm it. The logic of heartless and nobodies would mean that he indeed doesn't have his original body, because that's what Roxas is. But since it wasn't explained or confirmed then we're kinda just left to theorize.
KH2 didnโt really say anything about them being different. Even at the time of BBS, Nomura hinted they may have the same heart.
But in Dream Drop Distance, Sora says Roxas should be his own person. Which leads people to believe Roxas is his own person separate from Ventus. Itโs kind of a weird dabate people have. Both have good points. It could go either way I feel.
That's not the same thing because Axel and Lea are basically (if not actually) the same person. Roxas and Ventus are two different people. Plus Axel was Lea's nobody, whereas Roxas was Sora's not Ventus'. If he identifies as being Ventus then it's the same as Roxas being inside Sora, just inside a different person. He still wouldn't be his own person.
Nah, because his memories would fit with ventus. Ventus doesn't have the same incompatibility that Sora does.
As far as being Sora's nobody - he was also mixed with pieces of kairi, and has ventus's heart, which is why he acts like ventus. He is far and away not a standard nobody, which is a huge part of his character arc.
He was never truly happy as a nobody. There was always something bringing him down, and usually it was being a nobody. Allowing him to become whole with someone he's compatible with would solve that problem, so his life is more than constant sadness and pain.
How are their memories compatible? And what incompatibility does Sora have? The only common ground of Ventus's memory and Roxas is their relationship with Lea/Axel which for Ventus, isn't much in the grand scheme of his story.
The incompatibility that makes Roxas hate Sora for being the one to exist, and makes Sora tell Roxas he should be separate. Unlike axel and Lea, they don't identify as the same person.
Ventus is compatible because he has a convenient Gap in his memories, similar emotions, similar body. Roxas wouldn't feel so much that he was having an out of body episode.
Sora doesn't have much of a relationship with namine, either, nor does kairi, but the chain of memories still links them. Roxas had ventus's heart when he befriended axel.
I don't see anything in the games that points to Roxas hating Sora. He was a little bummed when he had to cease his current existence so that Sora could wake up, but Roxas saw that as the right thing to do. The end of Kingdom Hearts 2 even shows the Roxas and Namine are together as long as Sora and Kairi are, and that there was no hatred between Sora and him.
Sora is the one that believes Roxas should be his own person because he just good-natured like that. Not because Roxas hates him for joining back up.
Also saying Axel and Lea don't identify as the same person is a bit of a stretch. He was Lea, and then he turned into the nobody Axel, and now he's Lea again because he's whole again. I see where you're coming from but Lea and Axel share the same memories because they had the same consciousness, whereas Ventus and Roxas do not.
I think you're saying that Ventus's gap of memory can be filled in with Roxas's memory but that would still leave Roxas or Ventus in the backseat, just like Roxas is with Sora now. They can't both be in control of the body.
If Ventus was in control than Roxas still wouldn't have the free will to go where he pleases, the only difference is he'd be in a body that looks like him. The only solution to give Roxas free will would be to get him a body of his own.
I don't remember Roxas saying that he hated that Sora gets to exist. IIRC he said something along the lines of Sora being lucky that he gets to exist. But I don't think the word hate was mentioned in the epilouge in relation to Sora or the situation.
Sora and Roxas are two distinct people/minds, that is true. But Ventus and Roxas are also two different people. Just because their "wills are the same" doesn't mean they're the same person. Roxas did have Ven's heart but he had his own consciousness, otherwise he would've had Ven's memories. They don't have the same consciousness, so I don't think merging them would work without erasing part or all of the other.
And i misread your part about axel and lea, my bad.
Edit: There's also no precedent in the KH universe of completely erasing somebodies mind/merging to people into one. The closest I can think of is Xehanort and Terra, and as we've seen Terra still exists inside of Xehanort. I'm not saying that it's impossible, just that there's no precedent for it.
There's also no precedent in the KH universe of completely erasing somebodies mind/merging to people into one.
Lea's Heartless and his Nobody.
All I'm suggesting is that Roxas's pieces fit together with Ventus's more than they do Sora's.
Like with the Lingering Will and Terra -- are we to imagine that Terra's pieces are better off on their own than whole? Then why do the pieces of a person long to reunite?
but he had his own consciousness, otherwise he would've had Ven's memories.
I don't see how this follows. There's been periods where Sora didn't have Sora's memories, that didn't turn him into a different person. Just like Roxas didn't become a different person when he started receiving Sora's memories.
But Ventus and Roxas are also two different people. Just because their "wills are the same" doesn't mean they're the same person.
Roxas is, for most intents and purposes, Ventus's nobody with some of Sora's memories. His appearance is from Ventus, his personality is much closer to Ventus's, and he would mesh better with Ventus than Sora, similar to how Axel meshes with Lea. BbS hints that his connection with Axel is linked to Ventus's friendship with Lea.
Honestly, the best future for Roxas is to reunite with Ventus, and have Ventus just treat Roxas's memories as "the time he became a Nobody", like how Lea treats Axel's memories.
Beejsbj ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 00:08:39 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Roxas is, for most intents and purposes, Ventus's nobody with some of Sora's memories
He is still Sora's nobody. He has a connection to Sora thats more than just "some memories". He could wield Sora's keyblade, thats way more than just something you get from "memories". Yes, i know he weilds Ventus's too but so does Sora, doesn't make Sora Ven's nobody.
His appearance is from Ventus, his personality is much closer to Ventus's, and he would mesh better with Ventus than Sora
Other than the appearance bit, this is the furthest from the truth. Roxas is super different from both Sora and Ven in terms of personality, he is brooding ((even during happier moments, he still has a melancholic feel, the VA pushes this difference between Ven and Roxas a lot, its very apparant when you hear them both during the last scene of DDD with Sora)) and not happy go lucky like Ven and Sora, who are far more closer to each other than they are to Roxas.
Edit- also let's not forget Lea met Ventus once, for a few minutes, 10-12 years ago, it's very likely he forgot Ventus. It explains why he doesn't recognize Roxas. Though maybe he subconsciously got close to Roxas because of Ven but he obviously didn't remember him.
Other than the appearance bit, this is the furthest from the truth. Roxas is super different from both Sora and Ven in terms of personality, he is brooding
Ven was broody in BbS too.
and not happy go lucky like Ven and Sora
When he is put into shitty circumstances. Like when Ven discovered the X-blade plan.
who are far more closer to each other than they are to Roxas.
And of those two, Roxas is closer to Ventus, which was my point.
BbS retconned Roxas so that he was formed in the shape of Ventus, emotionally and physically, despite being made from Sora's body and memories. Reuniting with Ventus would also give him a clearer continuity of memory, as opposed to trying to reconcile two simultaneous lives.
Beejsbj ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 15:39:14 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Ven was broody in BbS too.
When he is put into shitty circumstances. Like when Ven discovered the X-blade plan
Ven showing a range of emotion doesnt make him "broody". Roxas had his happy moments too. Sora had very broody moments too. But Sora and Ven are more dominantly happy go lucky and have a child like/innocence/pure vibe. Which Roxas doesn't give off.
Roxas is one of my favorite characters, Ven is meh to me. id hate it if Roxas dissolved into Ven(or even if Roxas was revived, we dont need to fix every bad thing thats happened). Also if that happened Ven would be able to Dual wield using his and Sora's KBs.
Reuniting with Ventus would also give him a clearer continuity of memory, as opposed to trying to reconcile two simultaneous lives.
Its interesting you used "reunite" here. I mean after Ven's heart goes back to him. Roxas should stop looking like him. he is still technically Sora's nobody, his name is "Roxas". If he does join Ven. what happens to Sora, he doesnt have a body anymore? wheres Sora's nobody? Would he lose half his strength again? If sora turned into a heartless again, would a new nobody be formed? Do we know Ventus hasnt been seeing the world through Sora? hearts store memories, so the continuity of memory thing may not hold up if Ven can experience Sora's memories.
What about Namine? she and Kairi seem fine with "trying to reconcile two simultaneous lives."
You seem too keen on trying to get rid of the conundrum of having 2 look alike characters with a band-aid fix.
Roxas was brooding the whole time because his life sucked the whole time. We barely ever see him in a comfortable place, and when we do, he's happy with his friends.
If ventuss heart goes back to ventus, there's little reason to believe Roxas would still be distinct from Sora. Roxass unique construction was (1) what made him different from how axel and Lea identify as the same person, and (2) what caused the near constant misery of being himself. Like the other nobodies, or like body dysmorphia, the most likely way to heal them is to let them change who they are, fundamentally, to match who they wanna be. Roxas was in pain because the parts of him that were Sora conflicted with the rest, and he therefore had no solid identity at his creation to build off, like the other nobodies did.
Namine is pretty clearly shown with atrociously low self esteem. It's odd to say shes "just fine" when by all appearances , she's been completely subsumed and never wanted to exist in the first place.
I'm not trying to get rid of the characters because they "look similar". I'm pointing out that roxass main source of drama was a direct consequence of his fundamental nature, and turning him back into an incomplete being is hardly likely to help.
Beejsbj ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 17:00:16 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Roxass unique construction was (1) what made him different from how axel and Lea identify as the same person
Yes, i agree. but his unique construction( as in his unique Nobody-ness) isnt much related to Ven's heart being in him(other than appearance). Its mostly due to the fact that Sora was alive(and namine and Xion were messing with Sora's memories) and functioning while Roxas was born, he didn't get access to Sora's memories like Axel did Lea's. His was in pain because he DIDNT know who like other org members did(like axel) he was rather than "the parts of him that were Sora conflicted with the rest". THat's why he connected with Xion, because she too didn't remember her past. i remember that point being a distinct point to which axel said something along the lines of "you know, you two are quite similar".
He was only using Sora's keyblade at the start. Ven's heart, other than appearance, plays very little part in what made Roxas a unique nobody(also maybe other than allowing him to feel emotion).
Even when separated Sora's heart was stilll getting Roxas's memories during COM (like twilight town) even though Sora himself couldn't access em. He can't "leave" Sora to go to Ven just cause they look alike and because you think they have close personas (lets not forget they share facial expressions and voices so theres a bias when trying to relate Roxas and Ven's Personas). Roxas is far more fundamentally connected to Sora than he is to Ven. with regards to access to Keyblade, memories, powers, body, heart.
turning him back into an incomplete being is hardly likely to help.
If by this you mean Roxas living independantly of both Sora and Ven, then yes. I personally dont think that should happen either. He should stay within Sora forever(maybe gain an identity within Sora, if anything) seeing that last shot of Sora(cutting to roxas) looking at Kairi(transitioning to namine) at end of kh2 was one of my fav, happy ending/end goal scenes.
if by incomplete you mean staying within Sora, i disagree. I think hed be far more Incomplete with Ven
Roxas is far more fundamentally connected to Sora than he is to Ven. with regards to access to Keyblade, memories, powers, body, heart.
Roxas is far more fundamentally connected to Sora than he is to Ven. with regards to access to Keyblade, memories, powers, body, heart.
Fullstop no. His heart is Ventus's heart. He's never shown as identifying with the memories he does receive from Sora, unlike the other Nobodies -- he instead treats them as strange dreams, not memories. That's why he's incompatible with Sora -- he fundamentally identifies as someone else. We're never shown that incompatibility in regards to Ventus. His body is shaped to be Ventus's -- it's made from Sora's atoms, sure.
And access to Keyblade? He accesses Ventus's Keyblade too, and Sora only has the ability to wield because of Ventus touching his heart.
Yes, i agree. but his unique construction( as in his unique Nobody-ness) isnt much related to Ven's heart being in him(other than appearance).
That was retconned once Nomura introduced Ventus and said he was the cause of Roxas being a unique Nobody with emotions.
Beejsbj ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:21:13 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
right, if HIS heart is ventus's heart, he would have always been able to seamlessly wield it from the start. but it took Xion's death to trigger the ability. Also didnt DDD bring up the point that every nobody eventually grows their own heart? that was mostly made the case because of Roxas, he probably grew his own heart, that is not Ven or SOra.
he's never shown as identifying with the memories he does receive from Sora, unlike the other Nobodies
the fact he weilds Oblivion and Oathkeeper are plenty enough to disprove that. both of those keychains come from people sora is deeply connected to, Riku and Kairi.
Or how about his reaction to Riku going "cmon, is that all you got?"
he instead treats them as strange dreams, not memories. That's why he's incompatible with Sora -- he fundamentally identifies as someone else.
thats mostly because it was a unique situation, because of the existence of Xion and the problems Naimine caused.
His identity crisis is not that he identifies as someone else, his identity crisis was that he didn't know who he was, he started out blank for crying out loud. he himself went to seek Sora.
That was retconned once Nomura introduced Ventus and said he was the cause of Roxas being a unique Nobody with emotions.
except having Ven's heart isnt the only unique thing to the Nobody named Roxas, its also the fact that his heartless was made to "stop" being a heartless, and the fact that his somebody was running around and living. those parts didnt get retconned, actually ven's hearts existence doesnt really retcon anything, so idk why you brought that up.
Also if we keep going by your arguments, then Vanitas should reunite with Sora.
That's not an if. Nomura said Roxas has Ventus's heart, and it's why he can feel emotions.
Or how about his reaction to Riku going "cmon, is that all you got?"
And then immediately reacts as if he didn't know where that came from.
As in, he's acting exactly like as if he had two different, conflicting personalities inside him.
That's a major point of KH2, that Roxas and Sora do contain those personalities, but don't identify with them. If they identified with them, they wouldn't be confused about why they're reacting the way the other would -- it would feel natural, like it does for Axel/Lea.
thats mostly because it was a unique situation, because of the existence of Xion and the problems Naimine caused.
His identity crisis is not that he identifies as someone else, his identity crisis was that he didn't know who he was, he started out blank for crying out loud. he himself went to seek Sora.
And still, by the end, did not identify as Sora. He saw Sora as a separate person. As does Sora.
except having Ven's heart isnt the only unique thing to the Nobody named Roxas, its also the fact that his heartless was made to "stop" being a heartless,
Which is why he has a detached link to Sora. If Sora had remained a Heartless for longer, perhaps Roxas would have been shaped by Sora more than Ventus -- but he wasn't.
actually ven's hearts existence doesnt really retcon anything,
It retcons that Roxas literally did have a heart the whole time, as opposed to just having a weird relationship with Sora and Kairi.
Also if we keep going by your arguments, then Vanitas should reunite with Sora.
I mean, possibly. The game and novels are pretty clear that Vanitas was shaped by Sora, even if he was made from pieces of the original Ventus's heart, and Ventus and Vanitas clearly don't identify with each other when reunited.
Perhaps if they had reunited in a more peaceful way, they could, but they didn't.
If we were going strictly by materials, then Roxas, Xion, Namine, and Vanitas would be split into pieces and shared between Ventus, Sora, and Kairi. We're shown that the strict materials aren't the whole picture -- that there's personalities on top of it -- and while we're shown that some people aren't compatible with them, we're not told that all three are incompatible.
It's possible that Nomura has Roxas just be his own person, but it would kind of rely on asking the audience to forget how much distress Roxas's nature gave him, or asking them to ignore how someone who had a complete being would act different than someone who did (and thus be a different character).
Having Roxas's personality fuse with Ventus would have less conflict.
Lea and Isa (Saix's Somebody) were walking past a depressed Ventus, chatting about something I don't recall right now.
Ventus and Lea then get into a mock fight using their "toy" weapons. (Lea's Frizbies and Ventus' Wooden Keyblade)
Really they meet rather briefly in Radiant Garden and have some fun. Lea and Isa (Saix) were friends too, but in 358/2 Days their initially close nobody forms kinda fall out as Axel and Roxas' friendship grows.
Roxas was created when Sora's heart left his body, yes. He is officially Sora's Nobody.
However.
He has Ventus's heart within him, and because of that, his body and identity are much closer to Ventus's, to the point that you could easier compare Roxas and Ventus with Axel and Lea, than you could Roxas and Sora.
Pretty much -- he has some of Sora's memories (mostly of his adventure in KH1, from what we know), he has the essence of Sora's body (but it's been shaped into Ventus's form), and he was technically created from Sora -- but he's basically Ventus, not Sora.
There's also the whole deal with Kairi being in the mix a little bit too. Roxas, Namine, and Xion are all this mishmash of parts of Sora, Kairi, and Ventus -- which really makes the whole shipping of Roxas with either of those two very strange. They're essentially siblings, if not clones.
That's cause they're not spinoffs, as commonly misunderstood. They're completely integral to the plot, they're just on portable systems so everyone assumed they were spinoffs.
It's really not confusing. Like, if you've never played the games or only played 1 and 2, maybe. But if you've played them all, or at least read a well written synopsis, it's not that hard to understand.
I know you're being sarcastic and all, but while I agree with you that the story is a convoluted mess, it IS understandable if you play all the games. Miss one however and you're screwed.
[deleted] ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 01:43:21 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I feel like that annoying know it all in 6th grade that everyone hates when he says this, but I feel like I have a pretty solid grasp on the everything.
Was actually just having a discussion with my wife about this, so itโs funny to run across this meme!
In my mind, there is only 1 true plot whole.
<<<<<<<SPOILERS>>>>>>>
โVANITAS SHOULD NOT LOOK LIKE ADULT SORA BECAUSE SORA WAS 6 WHEN VANITAS WAS AROUNDโ (end screaming)
Beejsbj ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 04:38:11 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Yea but that's what sora would grow up to be. That's how his physical body would change. It's not like Vanitus personally went to see Sora and copy paste his face in the first place.
It's poorly written, but really not that confusing or hard to follow if you just play all the games in the order that they came out in (which is incredibly easy to do now since they're on one system), but most people don't really care about understanding it and just wanna make the same jokes over and over
There was a point in time where all the complaints were justified because the games were split across so many consoles, but that hasn't been the case for years.
Roxas and Sora, Vanitas and Ventus... All of their hearts are connected.
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 06:49:21 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I always kinda assumed Ventus's heart went inside of Roxas when Sora became a heartless. I mean it makes sense. When someone's heart is weak they enter a coma like state for a while, like Ventus at the end of BBS. And Roxas took a long time to wake up, which was unusual for a nobody. Also, he could wield a keyblade, had human emotions, looked exactly like Ventus and not Sora, seemed to bond very quickly with Axel (who he probably subconsciously remembered as Lea), didn't have Sora's memories but could still function, and finally, when Sora became a heartless a second heartless did not appear representing Ventus's heart. Shouldn't another one have appeared since there were two hearts inside Sora? Of course, this would depend on whether or not Ventus's heart was residing within Sora's body or Sora's heart. But all the same, I still think Ventus = Roxas, the only difference being Roxas was still technically Sora's nobody and possibly couldn't gain access to Ventus's memories (that one depends on if memories are stored in the body or the heart but I'm pretty sure it's the body). Like, you can say they're different people, but if they have the same heart is that really true? Can you say all those other guys are really all Xehanort if you reject that Ventus and Roxas are the same person?
elgity_ ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 02:39:00 on March 12, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
It's still confusing for me ๐
mrP0P0 ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 19:49:18 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Well they arenโt ACTUALLY the same person. They are derivatives.
CWhiz45 ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 21:40:14 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I love KH but it gets the Final Fantasy treatment. I don't even bother trying to explain it to someone new to the series. I just tell them to play the first game and if they enjoy it I'll get back in touch with them to explain the rest.
...that was a spoiler for me, oops! Iโve only played I and II and frantically playing catch up with the other games because I couldnโt play them for the longest time.
BUT?! This is still funny!
(Long story short, abusive ex fiancรฉ was terrible with money, I couldnโt find work for 5 years, he accused me of being materialistic and after we broke up, I bought the rest of the games and handhelds right before Square Enix released the 1.5+2.5 bundle. Another oops.)
is there like... a video or something.. that explains this series? cause iโm lost beyond all hope
edit: iโve played through kh1, chain of memories, and kh2. i know have 1.5+2.5 remasters. can i now play the games chronologically even though iโve never played the other ones?
[deleted] ยท -6 points ยท Posted at 18:42:01 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
A large part of it is that the lore is fragmented into so many games, released over such a long period of time, and split across so many different consoles. It doesn't help that the handheld games are seen as more "side" games. Side games typically only contain a little extra side story. But in the case of the KH franchise, they contain vital parts of the narrative.
I feel like the main concepts of the series aren't too complicated but there's so many side details and poorly defined elements that it becomes overwhelming. Part of this is because Nomura just doesn't explain things well or says one thing but then comes up with a weird exception to the rule.
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 01:45:57 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Exactly. Every single game is important. I feel sorry for the people getting downvoted into oblivion because they really do understand whatโs going on but the people who have played KH 1 and KH 2 only and refuse to play the others are as lost as a ball in high weeds.
[deleted] ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 18:54:17 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I still need to play the PS4 rereleases so I dunno how faithful the cutscenes are (I'm buying a PS4 only because of Kingdom Hearts and Digimon haha). I have the DS games, though. I really like Re:Coded's ability matrix system haha
See I don't currently mind that the side games are relevant to the story since they're easy to play on the same console. It just really sucked when back in the day when you couldn't buy all the systems to play the games.
The #1 biggest offender is chain of memories. That was a direct sequel to KH1 on a different system, and the re release of that game on ps2 came out after kh2.
So many damn people without game boys played KH2 without playing chain of memories and were confused as hell because square just had to make the game boy kingdom hearts a true successor. In that one situation, I wouldn't have minded that game being just a dream, or something else that would have made it not relevant.
![[Media] When people say Kingdom Hearts isn't confusing](https://i.redd.it/es8ey9uxskk01.jpg){kind=link}
Atreides27 ยท 416 points ยท Posted at 18:13:29 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
put a picture of the real Kingdoms Hearts and the Hearts of Man Kingdom Hearts beside each other and say "Kinda not the same but they're the same"
jetaluskipro ยท 142 points ยท Posted at 18:18:33 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Correct me of I'm wrong but Kingdom Hearts os the heart in the sky from BBS and the Hearts of Man Kingdom Hearts is what Xemnas tried to make, right?
sticktoyaguns ยท 215 points ยท Posted at 18:30:04 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Jesus I thought I understood this game until these comments... There's two kingdom hearts?
Welp guess I gotta replay the whole series again.
HayzerUnlimited ยท 108 points ยท Posted at 18:36:10 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Isnโt it 3? Kingdom hearts 1 with the kingdom hearts at the end
SilhouetteOfLight ยท 183 points ยท Posted at 18:38:49 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Heart of Man (KH2), Heart of Worlds (KH1), true Kingdom Hearts (BBS). It's possible that the Heart of Worlds in KH1 is the same as the true Kingdom Hearts in BBS, but we're not sure.
EnlightenedModifier ยท 53 points ยท Posted at 18:48:37 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I'm inclined to disagree with the idea that KH1's Heart Of All Worlds is True KH, considering the way Xehanort's Heartless gathered world hearts to coalesce the Heart behind the door (you can see the process in silhouette in the end of KH1 shortly before fighting him). This is in a similar manner to Xemnas gathering person hearts for his Heart Of Men.
If future games are to be believed, the Heart Of All Worlds would need to have a X-blade either formed or near it or something I would think, if it were True KH. Otherwise Xehanort wouldn't need to go through his 5-backup-plans shenanigans to summon it from the depths using the X-blade later in the series
Caliburn0 ยท 27 points ยท Posted at 20:34:17 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
It's not the same. Mickey says so in 0.2.
ThatGuyQuentinPeak ยท 44 points ยท Posted at 02:37:49 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Sometimes I think square makes this shit up as they go.
HerpityMcDerpity ยท 27 points ยท Posted at 03:28:14 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I really bet they did. Shit go so convoluted by BBS. I really think they didn't think the first one would become so big and had to write the story on the fly after the first game.
ThatGuyQuentinPeak ยท 28 points ยท Posted at 03:29:48 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Why do we like this game so much? I mean itโs the most back asswards convoluted mess in the entire video game world, but yet still so lovable.
therealradriley ยท 9 points ยท Posted at 05:45:29 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
You fight monsters with Donald Duck thats why
ThatGuyQuentinPeak ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 16:44:09 on March 10, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Donald, you mean the same Donald who keeps casting freeze on Vexen in CoM? That Donald?!
[deleted] ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 05:10:00 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
It's because Kingdom Hearts... Is light!
[deleted] ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 06:21:41 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Because despite how convoluted it is you can still kinda make sense of the whole thing. And there's really nothing else quite like it.
Caliburn0 ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 11:35:10 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
It has a truly convoluted plot, although the theme and base story isn't nearly as bad. Multiple things have been retconned and changed to fit later titles. Some things still make no sense, and I doubt it ever will.
But it is still fun. It is still nostalgic. The gameplay is still (in most games) really good. And for some (most of the people in this sub, I would reckon), convoluted plot is a feature not a bug.
Floggered ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 18:17:45 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Because we just want our trio of trios to be happy again :'(
Edit: Actually there's 5. What's with Nomura and groups of 3 in this?
Sora, Riku, Kairi
Axel, Xion, Roxas
Terra, Aqua, Ven
Donald, Goofy, Mickey
Can't forget about Sora, Donald, and Goofy either tho.
NightmaresInNeurosis ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 10:51:54 on March 11, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Where's the love for Hayner! Pence! Olette!
Floggered ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 15:18:51 on March 11, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Overshadowed by the 500 times we're gonna hear Sora.. Donald.. Goofy.. in KH3.
CaptainUnusual ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 07:12:53 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Because it's bright and colorful and fun
eskimo_bros ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 10:15:57 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Whoa, it's not necessarily the worst. Metal Gear has to be up there.
ShawnS26 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 15:48:21 on June 12, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Honestly that's the main reason I love it. Disney shit is just a bonus.
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 22:39:58 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
[removed]
zernoc56 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 18:12:51 on March 24, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Sort of like George Lucas, โI may have gone too far in a few placesโ
ZaHiro86 ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 03:48:56 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Sometimes?
nightNarcisist ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 15:38:56 on March 15, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
They kinda had to. KH1 was originally meant to work as a standalone title.
Elfdemon ยท 13 points ยท Posted at 22:43:53 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
We are sure. The Kingdom Heats of worlds in KH1 is not the same as the true Kingdom Hearts.
Ansem, Seeker of Darkness made an artificial Kingdom Hearts out of the hearts of worlds that fell to darkness/fell to the Realm of Darkness, Xemnas made an artificial Kingdom Hearts out of the hearts of people, and then there's the true original Kingdom Hearts that used to be the source of all light way back in the Age of Fairy Tales, but it was lost to the darkness, and only reemerges from the darkness it was lost to whenever the X-blade is reforged.
TheMattInTheBox ยท 14 points ยท Posted at 18:40:59 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
and true Kingdom Hearts is only really able to be summoned by the x-blade?
Elfdemon ยท 9 points ยท Posted at 22:45:05 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Yes. The true original Kingdom Hearts only reemerges from the darkness it was lost to whenever the X-blade is reforged.
CycloneSweep ยท 21 points ยท Posted at 21:26:01 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I think it's like heaven. There is one heaven and Xehanort keeps trying to create his own cause the real one is to hard to get into.
Kingdom hearts 1, was trying to use the hearts of the world's and the 7 pure hearts to create one. Which instead seemed just to create an open door between the dark realm and the real of light.
Kingdom Hearts 2 was a man made (nobody) version or Kingdom Hearts made by capturing freed souls from the keyblade. Which ended up being stop and was hard to do.
Now Xehanort is going the legit way of 13 of dark and 7 of light fighting with keyblade and the clash will create the true x-blade. Not the weak one created in BBS. To actually get into Kingdom Hearts.
HayzerUnlimited ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 18:39:27 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Yeah this, lmao i was to lazy to type it out so thank you sir
KrytenKoro ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 20:35:26 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
The Ultimania said it wasn't.
well___duh ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 02:26:00 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Is there something official that says all of this? I seriously don't remember any of this in the games, even in any of the journal entries.
NeverPulledOut ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 09:01:22 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Please, someone answer him. I'm on the same boat.
Trankman ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 19:52:24 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Also wasn't the door at the end of KH1 a door that lead to darkness that had the actual door to kingdom hearts in it or something?
Elfdemon ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 22:44:41 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
No, the artificial Kingdom Hearts made out of the hearts of worlds that fell to darkness resided behind the Door to Darkness, not through it.
CouchAlmark ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 16:15:50 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
The door at the end of KH1 was a door from the Realm of Light, where they still were but at the very edge, into the Realm of Darkness. All of the world hearts had been moved into the Realm of Darkness, where they'd formed a Kingdom Hearts. When Xehanort opened the door, the light from the Kingdom Hearts came through first and destroyed him as the hearts escaped back into the Realm of Light, then a legion of Heartless started pouring through from the Realm of Darkness because the door was still open.
dixonjt89 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 23:14:25 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
We have not seen the true kingdom hearts. We've only seen the Hearts of Worlds Kingdom Hearts(KH1), Hearts of Man Kingdom Hearts(KH2), and the Kingdom Hearts(DDD) isn't the true kingdom hearts either. In DDD, Xehanort himself states that the true Kingdom Hearts hasn't been seen again since the keyblade war.
wonderbrian ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 07:10:17 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Wait I thought Kingdom Hearts was light
sticktoyaguns ยท 12 points ยท Posted at 18:48:13 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Why are you doing this to me
Dr_Sasquatch ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 03:13:50 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Hold up when did the one from 2 and BBS become different? Did I miss something from the games?
HayzerUnlimited ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 03:15:57 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Yes one was created in two by the hearts of the heartless Sora killed BBS is the true kingdom hearts
Dr_Sasquatch ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 03:37:15 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
When was this distinction made?
HayzerUnlimited ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 03:44:49 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Someone else commented it on this thread somewhere i would say go read his, Iโm to tired to type all of it out
DarkMarxSoul ยท 9 points ยท Posted at 19:59:15 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
To my knowledge there's the actual true Kingdom Hearts, which always exists and requires the ฯ-blade to open. It is possible to create a fake Kingdom Hearts by bringing together enough hearts to form it. The Kingdom Hearts from KH1 was made by uniting the hearts of worlds while the Kingdom Hearts from KH2 was made by uniting the hearts of people.
nickoswar ยท 9 points ยท Posted at 19:56:41 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I'm with you on this. I thought it was just kingdom hearts. Where it's this man and world kingdom hearts coming from???
KrytenKoro ยท 54 points ยท Posted at 20:37:09 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
The true Kingdom Hearts is basically the Akashic Records. You don't need to build it, it's already there. It's the supernatural and eternal underlying union of all hearts which together create reality. You can't build it, you can only open the way to it, and that's what the X-blade is for.
The Kingdom Hearts of World's hearts is, you rip out some world's hearts, they clump back together in a moon shape.
The Kingdom Hearts of People's Hearts is the same, but with people's hearts.
skieth86 ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 21:39:15 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
This is correct ELI5 is appreciated, have an upkey
Weewer ยท 13 points ยท Posted at 20:21:22 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
It's actually somawhat explained in the journals in DDD if I'm not mistaken.
KH1 has the heart of all worlds. If you look at the darkness behind the door, you actually see a silhouette of the heart shaped moon in the back, it's very hard to notice.
KH2 has the heart of man. It's the big moon Xemnas was making.
BBS has the true kingdom hearts. It's the moon Xehanort almost summons.
As I recall, true Kingdom Hearts is where all hearts come from, and then they are subdivided within the heart of all man and the heart of all worlds.
David_the_Wanderer ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 21:17:28 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I can't find an image of this. Could anyone help me? I can't believe I never noticed it!
Weewer ยท 17 points ยท Posted at 21:18:47 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Heart of all worlds
Someone on Reddit pointed this out to me a while ago as well.
David_the_Wanderer ยท 11 points ยท Posted at 21:25:29 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Oh god, I see it now. IT'S BEAUTIFUL!
kodran ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 22:20:20 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
no, it's made of LIGHT!
_jvc123 ยท 9 points ยท Posted at 00:13:56 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Light? But why....
disintegrates
bonusswoosh ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 03:14:10 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
WHEN YOU WALK AWAY
kodran ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 00:24:30 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
*Things happen. Then suddenly DDD releases and a somewhat coherent series gets fucked up".
Elfdemon ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 22:47:56 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
That was me lol
You can also see the artificial Kingdom Hearts made out of the hearts of worlds on the cover of the game.
kodran ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 22:17:47 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
It's actually 3. BBS is the real KH. KH1 was the heart of worlds' KH. the heart-shaped moon in KH done by Org XIII is the Hearts of Man KH.
Elfdemon ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 22:43:13 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
There's 3 of them actually. Ansem, Seeker of Darkness made an artificial Kingdom Hearts out of the hearts of worlds that fell to darkness/fell to the Realm of Darkness, Xemnas made an artificial Kingdom Hearts out of the hearts of people, and then there's the true original Kingdom Hearts that used to be the source of all light way back in the Age of Fairy Tales, but it was lost to the darkness, and only reemerges from the darkness it was lost to whenever the X-blade is reforged.
KrytenKoro ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 20:35:08 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Three, actually.
72Challupas ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 06:19:20 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I thought there were 3? One for the hearts of all men one for the hearts of all world's and one true kingdom Hearts for the hearts of all men and world's
FamousOutcast ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 00:30:10 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Why do you think its called Kingdom Hearts 2 and not 4?
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 05:08:46 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Honestly the less you think about it the more metaphorical and fairy tail like it feels, and I like that a lot more than over explaining details sometimes in media personally (depending on context of course, Midichlorians and Mickey's shirt in 0.2 are the most extreme examples I can think of.)
Artpray ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:21:23 on April 7, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
3 I think
TheVongolaX ยท 11 points ยท Posted at 19:07:30 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
You're wrong. There are 3 kingdom hearts that have been shown.
Kh1: Heart of Worlds.
Kh2: Heart of Living things.
KhBBS: True Kingdom hearts, brought forth by X-Blade.
Atreides27 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 18:31:45 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
you are correct. Then the Heart of Worlds Kingdom Hearts is the one from the end of the original KH.
SirLocke13 ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 21:59:34 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Same same...
...but different.
seeohseekayes ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 12:38:14 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
But still same!
SoulExecution ยท 212 points ยท Posted at 18:55:04 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Heโs Xehanort, heโs Xehanort, IโM Xehanort! Are there any more Xehanorts here I should know about???
Semicolon7645 ยท 118 points ยท Posted at 19:08:39 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Meow...
sable-king ยท 63 points ยท Posted at 20:54:58 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
"KEYBLADE"
DrLuigi123 ยท 36 points ยท Posted at 23:52:19 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
"It's-a me, ITALIAN XEHANORT!"
_jvc123 ยท 36 points ยท Posted at 00:18:13 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Terra-nort: "I am Apprentice Xehanort."
Sora: "But we already have an Apprentice Xehanort"
Apprentice Xehanort: "That gentleman is right. Do not try and steal my position."
Terra-nort: "I am the version of you before you got amnesia."
Apprentice Xehanort: "Wait, I have amnesia?"
white_android ยท 20 points ยท Posted at 00:34:24 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Everyone: "...."
SuperiorKunivas ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 03:53:29 on March 29, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
"DARKNESS"
vanasbry000 ยท 29 points ยท Posted at 21:33:12 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I'm half-Xehanort on my mother's side.
witchywater11 ยท 23 points ยท Posted at 22:52:18 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I can see the resemblance.
imguralbumbot ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 22:52:29 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Hi, I'm a bot for linking direct images of albums with only 1 image
https://i.imgur.com/B3mPCJI.jpg
Source | Why? | Creator | ignoreme | deletthis
AscendingEagle ยท 18 points ยท Posted at 20:35:00 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I knew it! I'm surrounded by Xehanorts!!
Semicolon7645 ยท 25 points ยท Posted at 22:18:36 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Context
SoulExecution ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 22:53:41 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Oh my God, I never knew someone actually made that!
Semicolon7645 ยท 9 points ยท Posted at 23:19:03 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
It's one of greatest pieces of art from this generation.
_youtubot_ ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:19:11 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Video linked by /u/Semicolon7645:
Info | /u/Semicolon7645 can delete | v2.0.0
GeorgeLuasHasNoChin ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 15:15:07 on June 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Gunner's mate First Class Philip Xehanort!
Roxas420 ยท 224 points ยท Posted at 18:24:02 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
We're all xehanort!
Rutgerman95 ยท 169 points ยท Posted at 18:28:16 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Except you, /u/Roxas420, you're Sora.
Silver_Saint7 ยท 38 points ยท Posted at 18:36:17 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I thought he was Aquaventus! GAH!
dethmstr ยท 29 points ยท Posted at 18:42:08 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
No silly. He's actually the evil Vanitas.
[deleted] ยท 14 points ยท Posted at 19:48:28 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
i dont know why this made me laugh as hard as it did
skieth86 ยท 10 points ยท Posted at 21:41:02 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
The evil Vanitus, otherwise known as light Ventis+aqua+Sora+Kiri!+(plus maby Nortikins)
xnerdyxrealistx ยท 34 points ยท Posted at 19:39:50 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
We are all Xehanort on this blessed day!
the_undine ยท 21 points ยท Posted at 19:58:39 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Speak for yourself.
[deleted] ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 04:46:37 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I am all Xehanort on this blessed day!
everyoneisxehanort ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 19:53:09 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Everyone is Xehanort
MrBuckstar ยท 15 points ยท Posted at 20:35:33 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I'm already half Xehanort!
JonBarnett182 ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 00:44:17 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Our statistics show that by this time next week, Xehanort will take up 100% of the galactic population; which is good for my re-election campaign, because as you know, I'm half Xehanort myself!
bluedragggon3 ยท 23 points ยท Posted at 19:00:31 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
"We're all Xehanort now" -Xehanort 76
captaintaco2345 ยท 16 points ยท Posted at 20:41:51 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Are there any other Xehanorts I should know about?!
[deleted] ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 04:46:51 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Meow
ReallySaltyPeppers ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 18:46:48 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I am also Xehanort
biglineman ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 22:39:09 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I'M XEHANORT!!
Veilmurder ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 10:07:38 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Everyone is Sora, everybody else is Xehanort
MightyPrinceVegita ยท 139 points ยท Posted at 18:27:50 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
This is the reason I donโt try to explain this game to my friends.
uh_oh_hotdog ยท 191 points ยท Posted at 18:47:50 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
My reason is that I still don't fully understand it myself.
LolTacoBell ยท 9 points ยท Posted at 23:13:00 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Same. I didn't get that Roxas wasn't that other dude now I'm confused.
AleudeDainsleif ยท 41 points ยท Posted at 23:29:39 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
The other dudes (Ventus) heart rests inside Sora. When Soras nobody was created, the heart of Ventus had influence, causing the nobody to take the form of Ventus.
Meoang ยท 60 points ยท Posted at 01:16:45 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I just want to see Disney characters.
Gildedglory ยท 11 points ยท Posted at 03:31:38 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I play it cuz I want to see the other characters
nightNarcisist ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 15:45:28 on March 15, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
You mean the, uh, TWEWY characters?
adsq93 ยท 24 points ยท Posted at 02:59:12 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
So Roxas is Soraโs nobody which took the form of Ventus?
Rocky323 ยท 15 points ยท Posted at 03:13:44 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Correct.
molon-labe7 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 00:09:57 on May 12, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
This makes sense, but could it actually be that Roxas was just Ventus with amnesia? My head hurts.
Lucenia ยท 105 points ยท Posted at 19:37:21 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
The bottom image makes all the Xehanorts look like theyโre performing an enthusiastic musical number.
sable-king ยท 53 points ยท Posted at 20:57:24 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Master and the Norts
SlntThunder ยท 19 points ยท Posted at 20:47:08 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
The true reason Xehanort became one with the darkness. He had to go to Atlantica and learn all those songs. Now he really want to balance all that happy joyful music with his own punk rock band.
Gildedglory ยท 13 points ยท Posted at 03:33:27 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
The Xehanhort-Ginyu Force.
Carvool ยท 37 points ยท Posted at 21:33:02 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Oh but don't forget - - THIS still isn't the same character.
musicaldigger ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 05:58:58 on June 21, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
why does he look so gross in that pic??
galacticcyrus ยท 91 points ยท Posted at 18:35:51 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
haha, very funny op, photoshopping Ventus' face on Roxas. I see through your tricks!
Whiteclover000 ยท 46 points ยท Posted at 19:37:19 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Up until today it made sense to me. Roxas and ventus arnt the same, there is alot of xehanort vessels, and Ansem the wise is not Ansem SOD. But I just found out Ventus was a dandelion somehow during the keyblade war.... WHAT!? Seriously im ignoring union cross's story, please dont bring up some long convoluted explaination why in KH3 Nomura.
HopBender ยท 37 points ยท Posted at 01:22:48 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Having such a lore heavy KH game as a pay to win mobile title was stupid. The game is long winded, repetitive and boring and takes a good 300 stupid missions to get to the good stuff. I can even appreciate re:coded despite it having virtually nothing to do with the overall story but I absolutely hate UX. No idea how people can defend that game.
LordDeathkeeper ยท 24 points ยท Posted at 03:06:38 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
At least Re:Coded was just trying to be a fun DS game first and a KH story second. I can totally respect it for that.
bluedragggon3 ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 05:10:07 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I can't even defend it. Nor could I coded other than it being very experimental which I can respect. The other games? Love them to death with the exception of COM. An odd game that shows that gameplay and story need to be at similar qualities for the series to work. The story was nice. Besides the fact that Sora wants to fight everything that moves but besides that I liked playing as Riku for once. But now I have DDD. I can play Riku for days.
rice_bledsoe ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 03:14:06 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
mobile gamers are a whole nother breed.
HopBender ยท 10 points ยท Posted at 03:27:04 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
And SE should respect their fan base enough to not make horrible cash grab games. I've been very on board with the entire series until that game and how badly it was executed. KH3 is no doubt going to be one of the best games ever created but UX has left a bad taste in my mouth.
[deleted] ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 05:18:05 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Thank you. I thought I was the only one who was this frustrated by it.
uncertaintyengine ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 15:04:07 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Square is just awful about this stuff. They're really out here trying to charge people nearly full price for a game that came out a year and a half ago in the Royal Edition of FFXV. And people are eating it up.
HopBender ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:50:06 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Don't get me started on how much I hate the unfinished mess that is ffxv and the overabundance of milking that has been done to it over the past year. Seeing what is happening to FFXV makes me extremely nervous for KH3 and has me debating if I want to support SE in the future.
Myhotgirlaccount ยท 14 points ยท Posted at 05:49:46 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
nani the fuck......im just gonna try to forget i saw this til i learn what X is all about...lord knows im not playing a game on mobile
AlphaBaymax ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 08:12:57 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Ventus being a Dandelion is easy to explain. Basically, he originated in The Age of Fairy Tales, but was catapulted through time to the Birth by Sleep era.
How or why Ventus shifted through time is the mystery that's intentionally being left out for now.
Whiteclover000 ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 14:53:17 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I guess my question is does that add anything to the story? Nomura has plenty of plot threads to tie up by the end of 3 why add this random one to the list unnecessarily also why add more time travel when most people already hate what time travel there is and agree ot makes the plot even more messy
AlphaBaymax ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 15:17:25 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Actually yes, Ventus inclusion in The Age of Fairy Tales makes perfect sense. Why is his Station of Awakening The Keyblade Graveyard? why does Eraqus not want Ventus to know the truth about himself? why did Master Xehanort want to teach Ventus specifically as a student?
Ventus originating from a different era is not Young Xehanort time travelling messy. Ventus is basically Captain America. Captain America isn't from the present but circumstances got him to the present timeline. I struggle to understand why Ventus being in the past is "messy".
Whiteclover000 ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 15:35:22 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
How does he time travel. According to KH time travel rules you have to have a body and present in that future. Is there an old ventus? If not how has he not aged in all this time? How is he the only dandelion who knows how to time travel? How come before Xehanort splits his heart and he loses memories he states he isnt strong enough to fight all the heartless xehanort send his way if he is an ancient keyblade weilder who was supposed to be a dandelion leader? Did his time travel wipe his memories? Also why is Lauriam a keyblade weilder but his nobody cant use a keyblade like soras nobody can? A lot of questions are added that need to be answered and for virtually no reason other then mystery. I was fine with this for a lot of other things in the series but adding this plot thread so late into the game cycle and in a microtransaction mobile game makes me lean toward ignoring the plot thread altogther. I was fine with Ventus being some young guy with a predisposition to weild a keyblade that xehanort just finds. He doesnt need a long convoluted backstory.
nightNarcisist ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 15:51:29 on March 15, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
You ask this, yet he still hasn't aged after 10 years of sleeping according to KH3D.
SuperiorKunivas ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 03:58:05 on March 29, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I knew there was a reason I liked him so much.
Jesting aside, that's fairly comprehensive for a rather random plot thread on Nomura's part. If he actually resolves all of this in KH3, I will genuinely be impressed.
(Also, on a side note regarding the rules of time travelling...I feel like they're broken all the time and are too complex.)
Themysteriouspootis ยท 59 points ยท Posted at 20:36:56 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I guess the game's plot isn't....SIMPLE AND CLEAN.
Clyde_froge ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 00:06:37 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Haa!!!!!
kuropikaneko ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 21:54:25 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
If I could afford Reddit Gold, I would give it to you.
Girthquake42 ยท 6 points ยท Posted at 23:22:00 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
!redditgarlic
garlicbot ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 23:22:14 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Here's your Reddit Garlic, kuropikaneko!
/u/kuropikaneko has received garlic 1 time. (given by /u/Girthquake42)
I'm a bot for questions contact /u/flying_wotsit
Carvool ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 23:17:03 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
!redditsilver
XxAndrew01xX ยท 37 points ยท Posted at 19:52:50 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
The Kingdom Hearts series was actually pretty straight forward for the MOST part with some confusing elements here and there. Kingdom Hearts Dream Drop Distance ruined THAT however.
KrytenKoro ยท 14 points ยท Posted at 20:40:58 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I think you mean KH2.
KH DDD, like BbS and Re:coded, is mostly about answering the plot holes KH2 left open.
109234071982 ยท 27 points ยท Posted at 21:19:29 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
How was ddd mostly about answering plot holes lol, that title opened up an entirely new bag of worms. The confusion about KH2, in my opinion, mostly came from the abundance of people who played the game without playing chains first since a lot of people thought it was a side story.
BbS was the title that brought the confusion over if Ventus and Roxas were the same people, who Vanitas was, and furthered the confusion about who heartless ansem and Xemnas were because they turn out to be kinda Terra and kinda Xehanort (I'm still slightly confused on this one myself). DDD was the title that brought up some weird time travel and shoehorned in a bunch of things at the very end of the game like organization 13 being able to grow hearts, how they were all turning into Xehanort, and some other weird things like how kid Xehanort was able to time travel by leaving his heart behind. Like, DDD and Bbs, answered some plotholes from kh2 for sure, and I liked the games, but in my personal opinion they made the story a bit more convoluted.
KrytenKoro ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 22:59:17 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I didn't say confusion, I said plot holes. KH2 opened up a ton of plot holes by changing the story about keyblades, giving riku two keyblades, having Riku fall to the darkness again, indicating that the keyblade warriors of the past weren't that long ago, etc. Birth by Sleep and Re:coded fixed most of those, DDD fixed a little bit more (about what Xehanort's deal was and why the Organization was following a stupid plan).
109234071982 ยท 9 points ยท Posted at 23:37:14 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Okay but minor plot holes like that don't make the story exceedingly difficult to follow, which is what the original comment was talking about. Assuming the person played com, kh2 has a fairly straight forward plot. Once you jump in, you wonder who tf Roxas is, which eventually gets answered in the game itself. Everything else is relatively simple. Org 13 is attacking and want hearts, they are the other version of heartless, Xemnas is the nobody of the dude who Ansem was a heartless of, go stop their evil because you're the hero. There's barely any question of why people look alike because there are no obnoxious copy characters like all the xehanorts, ventus, and vanitas.
The organization following a stupid plan wasn't a plot hole of kh2. In that game, the organizations plan wasn't even stupid, it was just evil i guess. It was ddd that introduced that nobodies can grow hearts, which is the reason the organizations plan was stupid. Then they introduced the convoluted time travel sub plot that explained why they were following the stupid plan, while at the same time pretty much making a lot of the stuff that happen prior to ddd insignificant because so much of it was apparently planned.
KH2 had plot holes but that didn't stop the majority of the story from being relatively straight foward. DDD and bbs fixing small plotholes doesn't give it a free pass for introducing a bunch of obnoxious stuff that confused the vast majority of people playing the games.
KrytenKoro ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 12:28:51 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Not really. You're shown from the beginning that there's a peaceful way for a Nobody to regain its heart, which makes all the "we have to start fights" stuff not make sense.
I guess, sure. It still introduced a lot of inconsistencies.
109234071982 ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 18:04:30 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
What way are you talking about?
And yeah I agree with you that Kh2 had some inconsistencies.
KrytenKoro ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 18:07:18 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
The way Roxas did it.
In fairness, Re:coded does make that worse, by showing that Yen Sid and Mickey were aware of it, and thus that it was possible to figure this out on their own.
The Organization screwed themselves.
DahnVersace ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 00:51:59 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I thought to time travel you had to leave your body behind, hence hooded man at the door of Destiny Island (which I'm pretty sure is Ansem). Then you can go and grab people from other times.
109234071982 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 01:15:50 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
That's probably right actually. I don't know why it would be leaving just your heart behind.
XxAndrew01xX ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 21:17:26 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
And created more messes actually. For example, its messy time travel plot that makes ZERO sense.
TheMalythian ยท 14 points ยท Posted at 18:30:51 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
...that difference between Ansem, SoD and the other 'Norts is jarring
Xikar_Wyhart ยท 10 points ยท Posted at 21:25:53 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Well throw in Sora and Vanitas and say "Not relatives" and it would be perfect.
Generally speaking Young and Master ARE truly the same character. One is a young man the other is an elderly bastard.
This same logic applies to Terranort, Ansem Seeker and Xenmas, since they're from the same source body. The biggest question is that Young Xehanort looks like Terra despite not being biologically related. Unless we're suppose to assume that possessing somebody's body through the heart also causes some level of physical transformation aside from hair and eyes.
Beejsbj ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 04:23:44 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Well ven's heart in sora's body made roxas look like ven
suthlkdragn ยท 10 points ยท Posted at 19:16:11 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I just beat the Sora story in KH:DDD, and boi, that ending. Trying to beat Ansem with Riku, but ga damn.
yeaman912 ยท 10 points ยท Posted at 20:04:37 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Well obviously they're different, Roxas smiles,Ventus doesn't.
Those guys on the bottom though.....its like the designers just got lazy and copy/pasted everything. Look at all the white hair and one case of baldness.
Terrible.
[deleted] ยท 32 points ยท Posted at 18:35:33 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
[removed]
AmantisAsoko ยท 23 points ยท Posted at 22:03:21 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Here's the plot in two paragraphs https://www.reddit.com/r/KingdomHearts/comments/82zgof/media_when_people_say_kingdom_hearts_isnt/dvebq61/
But all you need to know is this evil old man keeps trying to open a gateway to the soul of the universe for unlimited power and a bunch of kids keep stopping him
[deleted] ยท 14 points ยท Posted at 22:14:04 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
[deleted] ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 02:50:20 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Congratulations! You're now about on the same level as half of the people who have played all of the game!
AmantisAsoko ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 22:23:58 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Thats on you buddy
DahnVersace ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 00:37:53 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
The Xehanort's look more like a family. Xehanort BBS is the grandpa, Xemnas/Ansem are his two sons. Then Terranort and Young Xehanort are his grandsons.
BroItsLogan ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 14:49:00 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I think the Roxas and Ventus thing wouldโve been easier to accept if they at least had dramatically different clothing. At a first glance in the games it takes a second to differentiate them cause the color schemes are so similar.
Shouldโve given Ventus maybe just a mostly black outfit as a complete contrast to Roxasโs mostly white.
And yes I know that Venโs outfit is meant to represent the duality of Light and Dark, but that can be given up for the sake that he looks identical to another character.
[deleted] ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 23:22:29 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Me explaining the origin of my son's name to confused non game type people: "It's a video game with Disney characters and a bunch of pointy hair people." Anything more than that and they start getting super confused.
bluedragggon3 ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 05:32:49 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I would argue that people seem to overcomplicate DDD than it actually is. To sort of summarize time travel, look up stable time loop. What clicked for me was the tv tropes page. Specifically the picture.
Now some extra rules. You have to get rid of your body to do it. And anything you change is forgotten in memory but not by heart. So your fate is altered. Not changed. If your destined to die, it won't change. I think you may change how you die(or how the fate spells out) but even then technically you never did since it's always has been.
So in another sense time travel doesn't work in the traditional sense. If I go back in time and tell myself how to tie my shoes and go back, I have begun a loop. Forget the timeline that started it. Now no matter what, I get help from my future self to tie my shoes and grow up to time travel to tell myself to tie my shoes. Hell forget that there was a timeline that even started it as with this its just always has been this way.
In KH logic, I won't remember being told that by my future self or about time travel but the act of me being helped decided two things: I will now work on tying my shoes and I will go back in time(and also get rid of my body) to help me tie my shoes so the loop can continue. If I don't got back then I start a paradox. What happens during a paradox? Well either shit just goes on like normal or everything explodes. In KH we don't know what happens in paradoxes or if they are even possible.
Matthew0337 ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 21:20:03 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Now that I look at it, all the xehanorts look a lot like eachother.
roron0a ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 21:43:01 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Looks at Ventus & Roxas eyes,yep totally different. Looks at Xemnas & Co hands....yep definetly the same lol
victrin ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 15:13:09 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Sora, Ventus, Roxas and Xion walk into a bar...
thewookie34 ยท 18 points ยท Posted at 19:18:05 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Wait ventis ans roxas arent the same? Fuck I really didnt pay atrention durinf KH2
churly92 ยท 56 points ยท Posted at 19:30:37 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Ventus wasn't even introduced yet when KH2 came out though. Roxas looks like Ventus because Ventus' heart is resting inside Sora; so when Sora became a Nobody, it ended up looking like what was inside him.
zinko101 ยท 29 points ยท Posted at 20:36:13 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
This is the most concise explanation and it's still this long and confusing
thewookie34 ยท 10 points ยท Posted at 19:31:14 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Ummm I dont remember shit I guess.
churly92 ยท 16 points ยท Posted at 19:33:43 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
That's ok, I played Dream Drop Distance and barely understand what happened there. Getting into KH3 will really mean diving into the KH wiki lol
AmantisAsoko ยท 54 points ยท Posted at 21:35:33 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
No need, here you go:
The 5 Students of the most powerful Keyblade Master go to war with eachother, each forming their own private army, destroying the universe.(Game: Kingdom Hearts X)
The pure hearted children of the world then rebuild universe.
Terranort wakes up on a world with amnesia in the care of a kind scientist named "Ansem the Wise" on a world called Radiant Garden (Hollow Bastion).
Ventus his damaged heart fused with a little boy named Sora to heal.
Aqua gets lost in the realm of darkness (Aqua's time in the Realm of Darkness is the main storyline of the Game: KH 2.8)
At some point Kairi's heart gets put into Sora. Sora gets turned into a Heartless, which forms a Nobody (Roxas), and releases Kairi's heart, forming the glitch "memory witch" Nobody, Namine.
Namine takes Sora's memories and makes them into another person (Xion) Sora forgets all of Castle Oblivion (Game: Chain of Memories) but Xion dies.
Roxas works for Organization 13 but is recaptured and Sora is put to sleep in a giant machine to reintegrate him. Namine is lso reintegrated back into Kairi.
Carlver ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 22:42:30 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Thanks for the explanation, that was great. Just a question, if roxas is ventus nobody, and namine is kairi's nobody, then we still don't have sora's nobody right?
mAssEffectdriven ยท 14 points ยท Posted at 23:00:56 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I believe Roxas is Sora's Nobody. Nobodies' names come from their original name scrambled with the letter X so
Sora + X = Roxas,
Lea + X = Axel,
Ansem + X = Xemnas.
Xion is the only outlier because she's technically a replica of Roxas and doesn't have an actual original counterpart. I think the only reason Roxas looks so much like Ventus is because Sora's heart was fused with Ventus' at the time.
AmantisAsoko ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 23:31:42 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Basically this. Roxas was a kinda hybrid Sora/Ventus Nobody, because Ven's heart is fused with Sora's.
I think Xion was actually made of Sora's memories though, during CoM
NabsterHax ยท 9 points ยท Posted at 00:06:55 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Can't remember how much of this is real or just fan theory, but I think Xion is basically Sora's memories of Kairi that Namine steals.
Xion's non-X name is "No. i". In mathematics, i often refers to the "imaginary number" so it's a sort of reference to the fact that Xion doesn't really exist... even more so that regular Nobodies.
[deleted] ยท 8 points ยท Posted at 23:42:42 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
No, Roxas is Sora's nobody. He looks like Ventus because he has Ventus' heart. Having Ven's heart doesn't make him Ven, though. In the KH universe, a person consists of a body, a heart, and a soul/spirit/mind. The heart is the part containing a person's inner light and darkness (i.e. emotions and moral compass).
The soul is the life force, personality, and individuality. Ventus' soul is still inside his body, and Roxas has his own soul unique to himself (which is why in DDD Sora tells Roxas he deserves to exist). The body is just the physical vessel for the soul and heart.
In a strange turn of events, Roxas has Sora's body, which looks like Ventus' but actually isn't Ven's body. When Kairi turns Sora back into a person in KH1, he technically doesn't have a body anymore. This really showcases how Nomura is basically making everything up as he goes, and it's not worth trying to think too deeply out.
DahnVersace ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 00:46:51 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I'm not even sure if "Sora technically doesn't have a body thing" was ever confirmed by Nomura\anyone who has the authority to confirm it. The logic of heartless and nobodies would mean that he indeed doesn't have his original body, because that's what Roxas is. But since it wasn't explained or confirmed then we're kinda just left to theorize.
Marcoscb ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 12:34:41 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Just to nitpick, Aqua's game is 0.2. 2.8 is the collection containing DDD remastered, 0.2 and Back Cover.
c3dge_88 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 06:01:17 on March 22, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
wait wait wait. how did sora become a nobody? is it because of when he became a heartless in kh1?
TrickstarEX ยท 10 points ยท Posted at 19:31:21 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
KH2 didnโt really say anything about them being different. Even at the time of BBS, Nomura hinted they may have the same heart.
But in Dream Drop Distance, Sora says Roxas should be his own person. Which leads people to believe Roxas is his own person separate from Ventus. Itโs kind of a weird dabate people have. Both have good points. It could go either way I feel.
KrytenKoro ยท 12 points ยท Posted at 20:40:21 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Could just mean "separate from Sora", which would work with him fusing with Ventus.
DahnVersace ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 00:47:51 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
If Roxas fuses with Ventus then he's still not his own person.
KrytenKoro ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 12:29:36 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
He would be if he identified with being Ventus -- which is similar to Axel and Lea.
DahnVersace ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 14:25:11 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
That's not the same thing because Axel and Lea are basically (if not actually) the same person. Roxas and Ventus are two different people. Plus Axel was Lea's nobody, whereas Roxas was Sora's not Ventus'. If he identifies as being Ventus then it's the same as Roxas being inside Sora, just inside a different person. He still wouldn't be his own person.
KrytenKoro ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 14:50:37 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Nah, because his memories would fit with ventus. Ventus doesn't have the same incompatibility that Sora does.
As far as being Sora's nobody - he was also mixed with pieces of kairi, and has ventus's heart, which is why he acts like ventus. He is far and away not a standard nobody, which is a huge part of his character arc.
He was never truly happy as a nobody. There was always something bringing him down, and usually it was being a nobody. Allowing him to become whole with someone he's compatible with would solve that problem, so his life is more than constant sadness and pain.
DahnVersace ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 14:56:07 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
How are their memories compatible? And what incompatibility does Sora have? The only common ground of Ventus's memory and Roxas is their relationship with Lea/Axel which for Ventus, isn't much in the grand scheme of his story.
KrytenKoro ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 15:52:07 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
The incompatibility that makes Roxas hate Sora for being the one to exist, and makes Sora tell Roxas he should be separate. Unlike axel and Lea, they don't identify as the same person.
Ventus is compatible because he has a convenient Gap in his memories, similar emotions, similar body. Roxas wouldn't feel so much that he was having an out of body episode.
Sora doesn't have much of a relationship with namine, either, nor does kairi, but the chain of memories still links them. Roxas had ventus's heart when he befriended axel.
DahnVersace ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 16:11:23 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I don't see anything in the games that points to Roxas hating Sora. He was a little bummed when he had to cease his current existence so that Sora could wake up, but Roxas saw that as the right thing to do. The end of Kingdom Hearts 2 even shows the Roxas and Namine are together as long as Sora and Kairi are, and that there was no hatred between Sora and him.
Sora is the one that believes Roxas should be his own person because he just good-natured like that. Not because Roxas hates him for joining back up.
Also saying Axel and Lea don't identify as the same person is a bit of a stretch. He was Lea, and then he turned into the nobody Axel, and now he's Lea again because he's whole again. I see where you're coming from but Lea and Axel share the same memories because they had the same consciousness, whereas Ventus and Roxas do not.
I think you're saying that Ventus's gap of memory can be filled in with Roxas's memory but that would still leave Roxas or Ventus in the backseat, just like Roxas is with Sora now. They can't both be in control of the body.
If Ventus was in control than Roxas still wouldn't have the free will to go where he pleases, the only difference is he'd be in a body that looks like him. The only solution to give Roxas free will would be to get him a body of his own.
KrytenKoro ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 16:27:35 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Didn't he explicitly say he hated him that Sora got to exist, at the end of his prologue?
Not Sora as a person. Hating the situation.
Right. They don't identify as the same person.
That's the opposite of what I said.
That's not what I'm suggesting. I'm suggesting them becoming the same person, not a situation like Ventus-Vanitas or Riku-Ansem.
What I've been suggesting is that since Roxas's heart is Ventus's, their wills are the same.
DahnVersace ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 16:39:27 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I don't remember Roxas saying that he hated that Sora gets to exist. IIRC he said something along the lines of Sora being lucky that he gets to exist. But I don't think the word hate was mentioned in the epilouge in relation to Sora or the situation.
Sora and Roxas are two distinct people/minds, that is true. But Ventus and Roxas are also two different people. Just because their "wills are the same" doesn't mean they're the same person. Roxas did have Ven's heart but he had his own consciousness, otherwise he would've had Ven's memories. They don't have the same consciousness, so I don't think merging them would work without erasing part or all of the other.
And i misread your part about axel and lea, my bad.
Edit: There's also no precedent in the KH universe of completely erasing somebodies mind/merging to people into one. The closest I can think of is Xehanort and Terra, and as we've seen Terra still exists inside of Xehanort. I'm not saying that it's impossible, just that there's no precedent for it.
KrytenKoro ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 16:57:53 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Lea's Heartless and his Nobody.
All I'm suggesting is that Roxas's pieces fit together with Ventus's more than they do Sora's.
Like with the Lingering Will and Terra -- are we to imagine that Terra's pieces are better off on their own than whole? Then why do the pieces of a person long to reunite?
I don't see how this follows. There's been periods where Sora didn't have Sora's memories, that didn't turn him into a different person. Just like Roxas didn't become a different person when he started receiving Sora's memories.
That's exactly what that would mean.
TrickstarEX ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 21:53:45 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I agree, in all honesty itโs up in the air. And Sora is probably one of the least knowledgeable characters in the series anyways lol.
KrytenKoro ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 20:39:44 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Roxas is, for most intents and purposes, Ventus's nobody with some of Sora's memories. His appearance is from Ventus, his personality is much closer to Ventus's, and he would mesh better with Ventus than Sora, similar to how Axel meshes with Lea. BbS hints that his connection with Axel is linked to Ventus's friendship with Lea.
Honestly, the best future for Roxas is to reunite with Ventus, and have Ventus just treat Roxas's memories as "the time he became a Nobody", like how Lea treats Axel's memories.
Beejsbj ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 00:08:39 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
He is still Sora's nobody. He has a connection to Sora thats more than just "some memories". He could wield Sora's keyblade, thats way more than just something you get from "memories". Yes, i know he weilds Ventus's too but so does Sora, doesn't make Sora Ven's nobody.
Other than the appearance bit, this is the furthest from the truth. Roxas is super different from both Sora and Ven in terms of personality, he is brooding ((even during happier moments, he still has a melancholic feel, the VA pushes this difference between Ven and Roxas a lot, its very apparant when you hear them both during the last scene of DDD with Sora)) and not happy go lucky like Ven and Sora, who are far more closer to each other than they are to Roxas.
Edit- also let's not forget Lea met Ventus once, for a few minutes, 10-12 years ago, it's very likely he forgot Ventus. It explains why he doesn't recognize Roxas. Though maybe he subconsciously got close to Roxas because of Ven but he obviously didn't remember him.
ThatGuy642 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 02:24:53 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Roxas is literally Sora's physical body walking around too. Kind of hard to say that's anyone but Sora.
KrytenKoro ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 12:24:30 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Like I said, he has Sora's physical body materials, but they're in the shape of Ventus and he has Ventus's heart and personality coloring it.
It's Sora's body poured into a Ventus-shaped mold.
Beejsbj ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 04:16:09 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Exactly!
KrytenKoro ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 12:27:19 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Ven was broody in BbS too.
When he is put into shitty circumstances. Like when Ven discovered the X-blade plan.
And of those two, Roxas is closer to Ventus, which was my point.
BbS retconned Roxas so that he was formed in the shape of Ventus, emotionally and physically, despite being made from Sora's body and memories. Reuniting with Ventus would also give him a clearer continuity of memory, as opposed to trying to reconcile two simultaneous lives.
Beejsbj ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 15:39:14 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Ven showing a range of emotion doesnt make him "broody". Roxas had his happy moments too. Sora had very broody moments too. But Sora and Ven are more dominantly happy go lucky and have a child like/innocence/pure vibe. Which Roxas doesn't give off.
Roxas is one of my favorite characters, Ven is meh to me. id hate it if Roxas dissolved into Ven(or even if Roxas was revived, we dont need to fix every bad thing thats happened). Also if that happened Ven would be able to Dual wield using his and Sora's KBs.
Its interesting you used "reunite" here. I mean after Ven's heart goes back to him. Roxas should stop looking like him. he is still technically Sora's nobody, his name is "Roxas". If he does join Ven. what happens to Sora, he doesnt have a body anymore? wheres Sora's nobody? Would he lose half his strength again? If sora turned into a heartless again, would a new nobody be formed? Do we know Ventus hasnt been seeing the world through Sora? hearts store memories, so the continuity of memory thing may not hold up if Ven can experience Sora's memories.
What about Namine? she and Kairi seem fine with "trying to reconcile two simultaneous lives."
You seem too keen on trying to get rid of the conundrum of having 2 look alike characters with a band-aid fix.
KrytenKoro ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 16:00:43 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Roxas was brooding the whole time because his life sucked the whole time. We barely ever see him in a comfortable place, and when we do, he's happy with his friends.
If ventuss heart goes back to ventus, there's little reason to believe Roxas would still be distinct from Sora. Roxass unique construction was (1) what made him different from how axel and Lea identify as the same person, and (2) what caused the near constant misery of being himself. Like the other nobodies, or like body dysmorphia, the most likely way to heal them is to let them change who they are, fundamentally, to match who they wanna be. Roxas was in pain because the parts of him that were Sora conflicted with the rest, and he therefore had no solid identity at his creation to build off, like the other nobodies did.
Namine is pretty clearly shown with atrociously low self esteem. It's odd to say shes "just fine" when by all appearances , she's been completely subsumed and never wanted to exist in the first place.
I'm not trying to get rid of the characters because they "look similar". I'm pointing out that roxass main source of drama was a direct consequence of his fundamental nature, and turning him back into an incomplete being is hardly likely to help.
Beejsbj ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 17:00:16 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Yes, i agree. but his unique construction( as in his unique Nobody-ness) isnt much related to Ven's heart being in him(other than appearance). Its mostly due to the fact that Sora was alive(and namine and Xion were messing with Sora's memories) and functioning while Roxas was born, he didn't get access to Sora's memories like Axel did Lea's. His was in pain because he DIDNT know who like other org members did(like axel) he was rather than "the parts of him that were Sora conflicted with the rest". THat's why he connected with Xion, because she too didn't remember her past. i remember that point being a distinct point to which axel said something along the lines of "you know, you two are quite similar".
He was only using Sora's keyblade at the start. Ven's heart, other than appearance, plays very little part in what made Roxas a unique nobody(also maybe other than allowing him to feel emotion).
Even when separated Sora's heart was stilll getting Roxas's memories during COM (like twilight town) even though Sora himself couldn't access em. He can't "leave" Sora to go to Ven just cause they look alike and because you think they have close personas (lets not forget they share facial expressions and voices so theres a bias when trying to relate Roxas and Ven's Personas). Roxas is far more fundamentally connected to Sora than he is to Ven. with regards to access to Keyblade, memories, powers, body, heart.
If by this you mean Roxas living independantly of both Sora and Ven, then yes. I personally dont think that should happen either. He should stay within Sora forever(maybe gain an identity within Sora, if anything) seeing that last shot of Sora(cutting to roxas) looking at Kairi(transitioning to namine) at end of kh2 was one of my fav, happy ending/end goal scenes.
if by incomplete you mean staying within Sora, i disagree. I think hed be far more Incomplete with Ven
KrytenKoro ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 17:08:29 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Fullstop no. His heart is Ventus's heart. He's never shown as identifying with the memories he does receive from Sora, unlike the other Nobodies -- he instead treats them as strange dreams, not memories. That's why he's incompatible with Sora -- he fundamentally identifies as someone else. We're never shown that incompatibility in regards to Ventus. His body is shaped to be Ventus's -- it's made from Sora's atoms, sure.
And access to Keyblade? He accesses Ventus's Keyblade too, and Sora only has the ability to wield because of Ventus touching his heart.
That was retconned once Nomura introduced Ventus and said he was the cause of Roxas being a unique Nobody with emotions.
Beejsbj ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 20:21:13 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
right, if HIS heart is ventus's heart, he would have always been able to seamlessly wield it from the start. but it took Xion's death to trigger the ability. Also didnt DDD bring up the point that every nobody eventually grows their own heart? that was mostly made the case because of Roxas, he probably grew his own heart, that is not Ven or SOra.
the fact he weilds Oblivion and Oathkeeper are plenty enough to disprove that. both of those keychains come from people sora is deeply connected to, Riku and Kairi.
Or how about his reaction to Riku going "cmon, is that all you got?"
thats mostly because it was a unique situation, because of the existence of Xion and the problems Naimine caused.
His identity crisis is not that he identifies as someone else, his identity crisis was that he didn't know who he was, he started out blank for crying out loud. he himself went to seek Sora.
except having Ven's heart isnt the only unique thing to the Nobody named Roxas, its also the fact that his heartless was made to "stop" being a heartless, and the fact that his somebody was running around and living. those parts didnt get retconned, actually ven's hearts existence doesnt really retcon anything, so idk why you brought that up.
Also if we keep going by your arguments, then Vanitas should reunite with Sora.
KrytenKoro ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 11:51:45 on March 12, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
That's not an if. Nomura said Roxas has Ventus's heart, and it's why he can feel emotions.
And then immediately reacts as if he didn't know where that came from.
As in, he's acting exactly like as if he had two different, conflicting personalities inside him.
That's a major point of KH2, that Roxas and Sora do contain those personalities, but don't identify with them. If they identified with them, they wouldn't be confused about why they're reacting the way the other would -- it would feel natural, like it does for Axel/Lea.
And still, by the end, did not identify as Sora. He saw Sora as a separate person. As does Sora.
Which is why he has a detached link to Sora. If Sora had remained a Heartless for longer, perhaps Roxas would have been shaped by Sora more than Ventus -- but he wasn't.
It retcons that Roxas literally did have a heart the whole time, as opposed to just having a weird relationship with Sora and Kairi.
I mean, possibly. The game and novels are pretty clear that Vanitas was shaped by Sora, even if he was made from pieces of the original Ventus's heart, and Ventus and Vanitas clearly don't identify with each other when reunited.
Perhaps if they had reunited in a more peaceful way, they could, but they didn't.
If we were going strictly by materials, then Roxas, Xion, Namine, and Vanitas would be split into pieces and shared between Ventus, Sora, and Kairi. We're shown that the strict materials aren't the whole picture -- that there's personalities on top of it -- and while we're shown that some people aren't compatible with them, we're not told that all three are incompatible.
It's possible that Nomura has Roxas just be his own person, but it would kind of rely on asking the audience to forget how much distress Roxas's nature gave him, or asking them to ignore how someone who had a complete being would act different than someone who did (and thus be a different character).
Having Roxas's personality fuse with Ventus would have less conflict.
icrispyKing ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 21:26:30 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Ventus and Lea knew eachother? Before org 13 and becoming roxas and axel?
[deleted] ยท 5 points ยท Posted at 22:48:05 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Yes, they become friends in BBS
icrispyKing ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 22:56:11 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I don't remember that. Hmmm
Wellsargo ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 23:34:24 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
It happened when Ventus was in Radiant Garden. Lea was play fighting with some kid and they had an exchange IIRC.
KittyLilith ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 23:52:30 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Lea and Isa (Saix's Somebody) were walking past a depressed Ventus, chatting about something I don't recall right now. Ventus and Lea then get into a mock fight using their "toy" weapons. (Lea's Frizbies and Ventus' Wooden Keyblade)
Wellsargo ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 00:44:24 on March 10, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Ahhh. Thanks for the clarification. It's been a while since I've done a playthrough of Ventus's story on BBS
NabsterHax ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 00:12:42 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Really they meet rather briefly in Radiant Garden and have some fun. Lea and Isa (Saix) were friends too, but in 358/2 Days their initially close nobody forms kinda fall out as Axel and Roxas' friendship grows.
icrispyKing ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 00:15:03 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I've played all the games a bunch. But been a while since I did all of BBS. Thanks for the update! :)
eric5949 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 20:56:00 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
The fuck? I thought Roxas was soras nobody?
Edit: Holy shit, I knew I was missing story by not playing the spinoffs, but wow. I'm missing everything.
KrytenKoro ยท 10 points ยท Posted at 20:59:36 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Roxas was created when Sora's heart left his body, yes. He is officially Sora's Nobody.
However.
He has Ventus's heart within him, and because of that, his body and identity are much closer to Ventus's, to the point that you could easier compare Roxas and Ventus with Axel and Lea, than you could Roxas and Sora.
Pretty much -- he has some of Sora's memories (mostly of his adventure in KH1, from what we know), he has the essence of Sora's body (but it's been shaped into Ventus's form), and he was technically created from Sora -- but he's basically Ventus, not Sora.
There's also the whole deal with Kairi being in the mix a little bit too. Roxas, Namine, and Xion are all this mishmash of parts of Sora, Kairi, and Ventus -- which really makes the whole shipping of Roxas with either of those two very strange. They're essentially siblings, if not clones.
AmantisAsoko ยท 10 points ยท Posted at 22:02:08 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
That's cause they're not spinoffs, as commonly misunderstood. They're completely integral to the plot, they're just on portable systems so everyone assumed they were spinoffs.
If you want a summary of them in a paragraph or two check out this post https://www.reddit.com/r/KingdomHearts/comments/82zgof/media_when_people_say_kingdom_hearts_isnt/dvebq61/
[deleted] ยท -9 points ยท Posted at 21:40:13 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
KittyLilith ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 23:50:38 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Oh boy you're gonna have massive problems going into KH3 then.
My advice? Play all of the KH games, or jump ship now, it's only going to get worse for you otherwise.
Wmnplzr480 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:12:16 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I'm still betting on them being the same person.
TwilightVulpine ยท 7 points ยท Posted at 21:20:25 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I'm almost sure they are just making it up as it goes.
OneRandomVictory ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 04:31:00 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Now throw Vanitas (Ventus but not Sora) and Sora (Roxas but not Vanitas) to make them more confused.
Rocky323 ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 03:17:49 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
It's really not confusing. Like, if you've never played the games or only played 1 and 2, maybe. But if you've played them all, or at least read a well written synopsis, it's not that hard to understand.
Unklefat ยท 9 points ยท Posted at 19:33:06 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
No, you're wrong! The story line is beautiful and isn't a convoluted mess! If you even played the games you'd get the story!!!! /s
KittyLilith ยท 12 points ยท Posted at 23:53:44 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I know you're being sarcastic and all, but while I agree with you that the story is a convoluted mess, it IS understandable if you play all the games. Miss one however and you're screwed.
[deleted] ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 01:43:21 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I feel like that annoying know it all in 6th grade that everyone hates when he says this, but I feel like I have a pretty solid grasp on the everything.
Was actually just having a discussion with my wife about this, so itโs funny to run across this meme!
In my mind, there is only 1 true plot whole. <<<<<<<SPOILERS>>>>>>> โVANITAS SHOULD NOT LOOK LIKE ADULT SORA BECAUSE SORA WAS 6 WHEN VANITAS WAS AROUNDโ (end screaming)
Beejsbj ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 04:38:11 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Yea but that's what sora would grow up to be. That's how his physical body would change. It's not like Vanitus personally went to see Sora and copy paste his face in the first place.
Colourblindness ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 11:41:20 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Or did he? Time travel rules says that Sora wouldnโt remember if he did ;)
HaouLeo ยท 4 points ยท Posted at 18:58:15 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Man isnt this getting old
passxit3 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 22:52:23 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
It's poorly written, but really not that confusing or hard to follow if you just play all the games in the order that they came out in (which is incredibly easy to do now since they're on one system), but most people don't really care about understanding it and just wanna make the same jokes over and over
There was a point in time where all the complaints were justified because the games were split across so many consoles, but that hasn't been the case for years.
italianspitfire ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 01:53:24 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
AMEN
darkbreak ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 04:31:01 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Honestly, in my opinion, Ven and Roxas are the same person.
Dawknight316 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 18:24:24 on May 17, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Roxas and Sora, Vanitas and Ventus... All of their hearts are connected.
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 06:49:21 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I always kinda assumed Ventus's heart went inside of Roxas when Sora became a heartless. I mean it makes sense. When someone's heart is weak they enter a coma like state for a while, like Ventus at the end of BBS. And Roxas took a long time to wake up, which was unusual for a nobody. Also, he could wield a keyblade, had human emotions, looked exactly like Ventus and not Sora, seemed to bond very quickly with Axel (who he probably subconsciously remembered as Lea), didn't have Sora's memories but could still function, and finally, when Sora became a heartless a second heartless did not appear representing Ventus's heart. Shouldn't another one have appeared since there were two hearts inside Sora? Of course, this would depend on whether or not Ventus's heart was residing within Sora's body or Sora's heart. But all the same, I still think Ventus = Roxas, the only difference being Roxas was still technically Sora's nobody and possibly couldn't gain access to Ventus's memories (that one depends on if memories are stored in the body or the heart but I'm pretty sure it's the body). Like, you can say they're different people, but if they have the same heart is that really true? Can you say all those other guys are really all Xehanort if you reject that Ventus and Roxas are the same person?
mellywheats ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 13:02:25 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Where is the second roxas from? I dont think iโve seen him before, i havent played all the games yet so iโm just curious
gab_owns0 ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 16:26:11 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
That's Ventus from Birth by Sleep
mellywheats ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 17:51:27 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Ty ty
cloudywolf2288 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 14:48:39 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Holy shit!!! This is great!!
elgity_ ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 02:39:00 on March 12, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
It's still confusing for me ๐
mrP0P0 ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 19:49:18 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Well they arenโt ACTUALLY the same person. They are derivatives.
CWhiz45 ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 21:40:14 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I love KH but it gets the Final Fantasy treatment. I don't even bother trying to explain it to someone new to the series. I just tell them to play the first game and if they enjoy it I'll get back in touch with them to explain the rest.
enchantressnine ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 23:09:00 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
...that was a spoiler for me, oops! Iโve only played I and II and frantically playing catch up with the other games because I couldnโt play them for the longest time.
BUT?! This is still funny!
(Long story short, abusive ex fiancรฉ was terrible with money, I couldnโt find work for 5 years, he accused me of being materialistic and after we broke up, I bought the rest of the games and handhelds right before Square Enix released the 1.5+2.5 bundle. Another oops.)
TrippySnake ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 22:45:51 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Has anybody ever said KH isnt confusing?
FeelTheWrath79 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 23:40:22 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Cloud and sephiroth?
soepie7 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 12:35:06 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I thought that Roxas looked like Ventus because the remains of Ventus's heart resides in Sora's, making them kinda the same character.
c3dge_88 ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 05:47:53 on March 22, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
is there like... a video or something.. that explains this series? cause iโm lost beyond all hope
edit: iโve played through kh1, chain of memories, and kh2. i know have 1.5+2.5 remasters. can i now play the games chronologically even though iโve never played the other ones?
[deleted] ยท -6 points ยท Posted at 18:42:01 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
uh_oh_hotdog ยท 16 points ยท Posted at 18:49:41 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
A large part of it is that the lore is fragmented into so many games, released over such a long period of time, and split across so many different consoles. It doesn't help that the handheld games are seen as more "side" games. Side games typically only contain a little extra side story. But in the case of the KH franchise, they contain vital parts of the narrative.
Kostya_M ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 19:42:10 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I feel like the main concepts of the series aren't too complicated but there's so many side details and poorly defined elements that it becomes overwhelming. Part of this is because Nomura just doesn't explain things well or says one thing but then comes up with a weird exception to the rule.
[deleted] ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 01:45:57 on March 9, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Exactly. Every single game is important. I feel sorry for the people getting downvoted into oblivion because they really do understand whatโs going on but the people who have played KH 1 and KH 2 only and refuse to play the others are as lost as a ball in high weeds.
[deleted] ยท -1 points ยท Posted at 18:54:17 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
[deleted]
purplewolfie ยท 3 points ยท Posted at 19:05:00 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
You dont actually need those though. The relevant information is in the rereleases on ps4. Meaning the cutscenes from both games are in the rereleases
PKKittens ยท 0 points ยท Posted at 19:08:30 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
I still need to play the PS4 rereleases so I dunno how faithful the cutscenes are (I'm buying a PS4 only because of Kingdom Hearts and Digimon haha). I have the DS games, though. I really like Re:Coded's ability matrix system haha
purplewolfie ยท 1 points ยท Posted at 19:11:07 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
Same. I boughtt a ps4 specifically for ps4 rereleases
109234071982 ยท 2 points ยท Posted at 21:37:09 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
See I don't currently mind that the side games are relevant to the story since they're easy to play on the same console. It just really sucked when back in the day when you couldn't buy all the systems to play the games.
The #1 biggest offender is chain of memories. That was a direct sequel to KH1 on a different system, and the re release of that game on ps2 came out after kh2.
So many damn people without game boys played KH2 without playing chain of memories and were confused as hell because square just had to make the game boy kingdom hearts a true successor. In that one situation, I wouldn't have minded that game being just a dream, or something else that would have made it not relevant.
speedx77 ยท -7 points ยท Posted at 19:17:38 on March 8, 2018 ยท (Permalink)
If you played the games it is not confusing.