Especially when you're cutting all the full-time positions and only hiring part-timers, while still maintaining hiring standards that are way out of scope for an entry-level job, but you expect all employees to be dedicated enough to their job that they do it well and with a sense of urgency, all while your long-term employees are getting pissed that they are always short-handed and have to keep training noobs who quit after a few months and leave them short-handed again because no one in their right mind who would qualify for that position would stay long-term at part-time. Not to mention the increase in starting wage with no further compensation for anyone making at or above that new wage. And I won't even mention how raises are no longer merit-based.
Basically, employers and companies need to pull their heads out of their asses and realize that they need to treat their employees well in order to get good workers. If you treat your employees like shit, you'll get shit work from them.
A friend of mine offered to get me into the "escort" business and I almost considered it because of how much "real" jobs like to screw people over anyways.
I have honestly considered whether or not I would turn down a job as an escort if it meant I could leave retail forever. I'd make a hell of a lot more money, that's for sure.
To be perfectly honest, I wouldn't even mind if they wanted to prioritize shareholders. The fact is that the CEO makes $12 FUCKING MILLION while I'm here making below the poverty line. If I wasn't married, I'd be totally screwed.
Managers, which are a whopping 2 steps above my husband, make quadruple what he does as a supervisor. I'm a base-level employee and the manager makes 10x what I do. They expect us to live off of that kind of pay? I fucking hate this place.
That's terrible, and really the bigger issue I was mocking was that these companies talk about their bottom lines and try to say that there "just isn't money" to hire full-time staff, provide benefits, raises, living wages, etc...all while giving millions in profits to shareholders and giving millions in salaries to a whole lot of upper executives.
Executives get cost-of-living adjustments that outpace inflation, bonuses equal to several times the annual salary of the average employee, and countless other benefits, but if they pay the normal workers any more, well, that would just be too taxing on the bottom line.
So much truth. I'd like to see a company where everyone makes the same amount, which is influenced by company success. Entry-level employees busting their asses helping rude, entitled, know-it-all customers while also maintaining the store every day should make just as much as, or more than, the figurehead who's always on vacation. Plus, then people would go for the position they'd like most or be best in, rather than taking promotions for the sake of a paycheck, even if they can't do the job well.
It's what happens when the company's financial departments hold more power than the human resource departments. HR generally knows that a slightly overstaffed business is a good thing, but their hands are tied when they have constant pressure from above to cut costs.
Also labor is the easiest variable cost to cut and CFO's see dollar signs.
[deleted] · 10 points · Posted at 22:06:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
HR don't give a shit unless it's in their job description. Don't fool yourself.
MJKP97 · 3 points · Posted at 23:01:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
@pandaexpress
[deleted] · 25 points · Posted at 18:41:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The solution is overtime. I stopped trying to fit all the extra work I was getting in to an 8 hour day and started putting 4-6 hours of overtime in every night. Your employer will notice pretty quickly then you can talk about either lightening the load or eating the extra wages I'm going to be taking.
Are you hourly or salary? Last place I was at would not entertain the thought of paying any overtime to salary employees despite the fact that it was a regular occurrence for staff to stay several hours overtime and come in on weekends just to keep up. When anyone brought it up, we were told we had to manage our time better.
[deleted] · 8 points · Posted at 20:56:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My overtime is paid hourly but technically I am on salary according to our payroll.
I do end up getting about 1.5x what my hourly rate would be when I get overtime.
We were given shit about managing our time better too and told to download some stopwatch app. So I did exactly that and put in an extra 30 mins for "managing stupid stopwatch app".
Well, at least they are paying you, so there's that. The place I was at had it written into the employment contract that there was no compensation for OT unless preapproved. Guess how often that happened.
I just stopped putting in overtime at my last job because of that shit. Every week of at least five hours of non compensated overtime? My answer when asked to come in became "I'll try." I didn't.
Depends on if you are hourly or salary. Salary doesn't typically see overtime wages, so if you put in extra hours you are doing it on your time without any pay.
My job exactly. My tasks have about doubled, and I've gotten maybe a $0.50/hr raise in the last year. That $0.50/hr isn't gonna cut it. I'm ready to bail and look elsewhere!
The one I feel bad for is my supervisor. I'm one of four people who do my job (two week rotating schedule) and due to one woman leaving, I'm now the most experienced. And I sat him down the last day I was there and said "Something has to change. I've got more to do than is reasonably possible in a 12 hour period, new tasks added every week. My pay hasn't increased at all. Put me back on a [lift truck], the small amount more I'm paid for this position isn't worth it." He's getting the same thing from the other three people who do my job on the other shifts. He's got instructions from On High that he has to carry out, so he's stuck between a hard place and a group of people who are too overworked to care.
I wouldn't mind my job if I got paid accordingly and was trained to do half the things they tell me to do. Even today, I got handed a packet of POG numbers and was told to check all their locations and correct anything improperly located. I'm standing there internally panicking, wondering how I'm going to do that, which I barely understand, zone and organize my department, fill shelves, help people, pull down pallettes of new product, and find homes for those, as well as back up in other areas if called for, run out other co-worker's overflowing product to the floor, and take my breaks. For the unliveable wage I make, why should I try? I have nightmares about my job several days a week! My boss is in a similar position, having most of her team extremely unhappy. But there is nothing she can do. I know if I leave it'll devastate my coworkers since I'm pretty well-versed in where everything is, but I can't keep doing this shit.
I understand not wanting to leave your coworkers/boss in a bad spot... but consider the reverse. How much warning would you get before losing your job? The way they're treating you, I'd say you owe nothing outside of collecting a paycheck and showing up every day.
I'm a shoe merchandiser at a super busy store, but know the basics of the whole apparel department. But I feel for the night/overnight teams, I hear horror stories!
Lesp00n · 10 points · Posted at 19:38:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I have maybe three times the amount of tasks as when I started, and I've gotten one raise. For 9 cents. And they screwed up and didn't give it to me until a year after I was supposed to get it, then tried to lowball me on the difference when I'd averaged almost 6 hours of overtime a week all year.
And yet I'm still here, because I can't find anything in my actual field.
A good commander works every post under his command at least once
[deleted] · 12 points · Posted at 19:45:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Back on topic, this advice is true.
After working as a day shifter doing more advanced work, then filling in for the guy who now has my old job, I work better and do things I would not have bothered to in the past.
Many people don't understand this about leadership. If you have not done a position, or flat out don't want to, then you are not the person to tell someone else to work it.
Not always. I run a company and I'm not an engineer. I don't know solidworks, I can't go engineering something. Basically all I can do is look up dimensions on a .dwg of .dxf. But that's why I hire engineers; so I don't need to know how to do that stuff.
But there is no doubt I will delegating the tasks that those engineers are going to be focusing on and what jobs need to go to the front of their queue.
Using your logic, I'm supposed to let those engineers decide what they are to spend their weeks doing? I've never been an engineer therefore I have no right to tell them what they are to be working on? Logic doesn't seem right.
ceetc · 18 points · Posted at 19:53:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There is a difference between deciding the direction of the project and insisting that everything has to be designed exclusively in Microsoft Paint.
There's a difference between telling someone what to and and telling them how to do it. Not sure what type of engineers you hire, but assuming it's software related, you might tell them to create a mobile app that meets x requirements. That's when you depend on them to do their job to figure out a solution. Unless you understand how to do it yourself, you shouldn't be standing over their shoulders critiquing every move they make on the way to said solution. You might ask them if there are cheaper or faster ways to do it, but you don't dictate what they should be doing unless they're obviously not doing the job you hired them for. That's what the other commenters mean, from what I understand.
There's no doubt that my analogy does not work at a higher level. I was considering roles closer to retail that do not require much specialization from the employees.
From my perspective, I work venue security for outdoor amphitheaters. I am the supervisor for perimeter gates, which are the positions that no one really wants to do. Not because the roles are hard, but because they are boring. Often times the employee will be in one spot for an 8 hour shift with minimal activity.
The analogy is more about not being a hypocrite concerning positions that are lackluster in the minds of employees. It is about keeping morale.
Not at all, but it does require you either consult your engineers about things you don't understand, or give them a free hand in planning.
For example, I used to write safety plans for a big dirt-moving company. My boss would ALWAYS plan 4 hours for a change. So if we had to move 20.000m3 instead of 15.000m3, he'd schedule a 4 hour block of my plan-writing time. This of course takes about 20 seconds. But if we found, say, radioactive super anthrax, he'd blissfully plan in a 4 hour block of time wherein I could make 50-page addendum.
The same company based their modelling time on the length of the object to be modeled. 10km of arrow-straight canal? 20 days. 200 meters of twisty-turny marina? half a day's work.
Someone who worked that function wouldn't make those mistakes. Of course, someone competent enough to ask questions wouldn't either...
Well not literally. A good commander understands that their job is to delegate and trust. They understand enough of the job to be able to recognize if there are problems. Enough to be able to appreciate and understand why its critical (or why it can be skipped if urgent). Enough to understand why they are terrible people to do it and shouldn't do it.
Even if you do the job at some point, by the time you get to lead it might be a completely different situation and reality. The hardships might have smoothed out, and the priorities might put the pressure and needs elsewhere than when one did the job. Even assuming that a lot of time and care was done on the jobs to understand them fully. If anything the fact that such a strong opinion was formed on experiences that may not be valid anymore risk the commander to micromanage and tell people how to do their job.
TL;DR: Being a good leader and manager requires understanding the needs of those underneath you and being able to explain to them what is needed of them. Understanding what someone does and the reality of it doesn't require understanding how to do it.
Acting is fucking tough. I signed-up to be an extra in a movie being filmed in my small town. I figured it would just be walking by in the background, if I even got used, but maybe I'd get to see some stars or something. Well I got picked to be a "featured extra" in a scene involving a stunt. Spent lots of time with the 2 principal actors, even had a close up. 2.5 days to film 1 scene. I'm rather shy and having that much attention focused on me made me VERY uncomfortable, plus it was fucking hot and most of the low level crew were dicks. The director, AD, and the principals (Josh Duhamel and Julianne Hough) were very nice, as were the B actors that were in the scene.
I never had any aspirations to be an actor, and what I did could barely be called acting, but I was exposed to enough of the process to recognize that it's not for me.
I had marketing as my first career, there's so much jargon (internal, not user facing) that most people who think like that would come into the job and literally not understand what anyone was talking about.
There's an art and a science to marketing, and of course some of it is utter bullshit to fleece the client.
Now I study computer science, even though no one thinks they can just walk into Google and start coding, they think it's much much easier than it actually is.
zapbark · 6 points · Posted at 20:03:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
For me the big "ah ha" moment for Marketing was when I saw someone doing A/B ad testing.
Suddenly, it was a very interesting mix of design, statistics, and practical cognitive psychology.
Getting maintenance done around a bunch of people, I've found, is quicker if I make a little sign-- such as, "I'm digging a Hole" and point to it when people ask what I'm doing.
[deleted] · 5 points · Posted at 19:29:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
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bryxy · 2 points · Posted at 19:56:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think you missed the point..... I don't really know because I'm not sure what the hell the point was either.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 19:56:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
As a young programmer I was sure that all the managers were stupid and that anyone could do their job, how tough could it be? Just tell people what to do, right?
I've since had many managers, both good and bad, and I've learned that it is not an easy job at all. It's a completely different skill set that I do not have. And I don't think I'd make a very good manager at all.
Acting (Pauley Shore)
Carpentry (Skilled Trade- a Pauley Shore house would not pass inspection)
Marketing (Pauley Shore could be on the other end of that phone)
Carpentry keeps people dry during storms. Acting and marketing are trivial. Acting is an art open to interpretation. One mans Transformers 5 is another man Silence of the Lambs. As far as marketing goes, the more I see something advertised, the less I like it. If you knock on my door or call me selling something other than girl scout cookies I will think your IQ is less than that of the average girl scout and promptly end the conversation.
I spent 7 years at a company where our motto was "nothing is outside my job description". I was in sales and while obviously I didn't start doing engineering overnight I was motivated to make an effort to learn a lot more about how the engineers were operating, and they did the same for my sales team, and the result was a much more collaborative environment where we all had a better understanding of what the company was up to overall. This was beyond invaluable and literally kept us alive in the face of increasing competition.
After that I got a management job in a new company and guess what the first thing was I submitted for policy?
I carry that motto with me everywhere these days and I'm grateful it was instilled in me over a decade ago.
My employers have a similar motto, just with a slight twist. Nothing is outside of our job description simply because we're having to cover the ever-increasing amount of work with an ever-decreasing workforce.
[deleted] · 144 points · Posted at 19:19:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
quiltr · 22 points · Posted at 19:44:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My husband hasn't even gotten a cost of living increase in over 5 years. Not because he doesn't bust his ass at work, but because the big wigs want to save the money for their multi-million dollar bonuses every year. And yet they continue to reduce the workforce and expect the remaining people to just pick up the slack.
Welcome to America. Where employers pay you way less than your worth and give you more to do than your job description. Don't forget to smile and say "please sir, can I have another?"
As it says in the good book (paraphrase), turn the other cheek! I will say though as a minimum wage employee at Walmart I do get paid $2 above the state minimum ($9.25 instead of $7.25 {not including yearly raises[which they are good at giving]}. Still, we should have a lot more people on our crew then we do. Still get our jobs done, and the job of our two shifts that work after us finished: but that isn't reflected on our yearly bonus.
I hear in North Dakota that the base pay for a Walmart employee is $13 an hour so that they are competitive with the oil company's/pipelines (they kept losing employees cause they paid more per hour).
quiltr · 1 points · Posted at 20:29:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No. He's a pressman for a newspaper that's still doing relatively well - well enough that the big wigs still get multi-million dollar bonuses every year. But fuck the people doing the actual work. They don't need money to live.
yeah, like I would like to do more work, but honestly if it's just more work without more compensation you start to feel a bit sore about it after a while. Also you can only juggle so many things before stuff starts fucking up.
Yep. I'm at an office that has had more and more layoffs and people leaving in the past three years, we have to shoulder tasks we aren't being paid for (or sometimes aren't qualified for), and our salaries are sometimes as bad as half the average down the road.
Why pay three people to do the work of three people when you can lay one of them off, and work the other two to death, then tell them that they should be thankful just to have a job?
Oh man. Can you PM me the company, old or new? “Not my job” has been like nails on a chalkboard to me ever since my first job as a teenager.
K3wp · 8 points · Posted at 19:40:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just a FYI, that's a fine motto when there is lots of cross-training and the scope is what I call "Kitchen" work. Chopping onions, peeling potatoes, taking orders, cleaning dishes, etc. That's fine. Much like in the Army everyone, even the medics and radio operators, have gone through basic training and know how fight.
In the professional world, on the other hand, it's an absolute nightmare. There should always be at least two people on hand that have the job as a primary or secondary duty, but expecting that anybody can step in and help out without doing some serious damage in the process is a fools errand. In many cases it's also a safety, security or legal issue as well.
Plus, I guar-an-tee you will experience the full Wrath of Hades if you touch an engineers stuff (without asking), break something or God forbid, hurt someone.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 20:07:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
K3wp · 1 points · Posted at 20:16:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Nowadays, I'm in a professional setting, and there seems to be more separation of concerns than before.
That's how it should be. Oversubscribing never works well in the long run.
But the people the least concerned with me messing with their stuff are the engineers. Usually when I ask them for changes they're just like, "Can't you just change it yourself?"
Depends on the scope of the issue. I'm like that with documentation, for example. I'm always telling people if they don't like my docs in the wiki, they can change them however they see fit. After all, I'm not the one reading them.
And of course, there are shitty engineers that don't care about their craft. I get that.
But if you f-up and cause an outage, destroy evidence, etc. you can bet you are going hear some salty language.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:21:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
K3wp · 1 points · Posted at 20:38:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In-office though, we basically don't have any formal roles dividing us, and I still used to hear "not my job." The couple people I have in mind are, of course, long gone.
Ok I hear that. For example, on my team we are all mostly interchangeable for the customer-facing stuff. I'm the tech lead so there is some hairy software/hardware stuff only I understand on the back end, but that's it.
I even had to have a talk with one of the new guys to not got miffed if one of us grabbed a customer request while they were in a meeting, at lunch or in the can. It's just how we do business.
aham42 · 3 points · Posted at 19:45:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If they don't pay damn well, then you get not my job. You have to pay me for that. I'm no longer a sucker like I was in my early 20s.
Don't be a sucker for rich people.
[deleted] · 11 points · Posted at 19:17:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
We had a similar policy at my old job where you could apply to spend time in other departments to see how they worked. Not everyone took up the opportunity but you could tell straight away the ones that did. And it's not just great for customers, it's great for morale. Knowing the importance of getting your job right and the problems it causes down the chain was a great way of dealing with the apathetic "What's the worst that could happen?" attitude of not correcting mistakes when you see them.
Companies with programs like this get it. It diversifies your understanding of tasks which makes work more fun and also more satisfying (because you understand other pieces of the overall output).
wren42 · 10 points · Posted at 19:20:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
yeah I worked at a company with this attitude as well, and it's extremely valuable. As a newbie I could ask someone a question and if they didn't know the answer, they would help me find out who did, even to getting up and coming with me to another department to find the answer.
Great way to learn on the job and also learn who knows what which opens the door for future collaboration.
[deleted] · 6 points · Posted at 19:09:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's a really good way to do things. I like that.
neea22 · 7 points · Posted at 19:10:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My company has a similar motto, essentially stating that we're all part of the development team (I work for an app). My team helps cover simple troubleshooting steps, tries to replicate the issue, and passes feedback to our other teams without hesitating.
I love my job because I get to actually DO something for people.
I spent 7 years at a company where our motto was "nothing is outside my job description".
Janitor by day, neurosurgeon by night.
On a serious note I understand it's meant in the sense of everyone pitching in, like if you're walking down the hall and you see some trash on the ground pick it up and toss it out rather than saying that's what janitors are for. However, if it's really harped on and somehow enforced that seems like a deceptive way for the company to take advantage of low level employees. "Hey Karen from the cafeteria, we're short on grounds-keepers today, can you go cut some grass?"....but in reality they're always short on groundskeepers and someone is always getting forced to do the work of an understaffed department, saving the company money because they don't have to hire more workers.
Do you not understand where I'm going with that? I thought I was pretty clear showing how the employer could deceptively create that mindset while having other intentions. Maybe I'm just jaded from the corporate chapter of my life.
It depends on who is saying that and what they mean by it. Janitors exist because it is cheaper for employers to pay them to clean than to have employees, whose wages are double or triple that of the Janitor's, do the same job half as efficiently. Honestly, it makes more sense for employers to support the idea that you're too good for cleaning in some ways.
That sounds like a good idea, but I got in trouble by changing a garbage can that was overflowing in the last place I worked because ''you can't go around do the job that someone else is being paid for." :/
Whoever told you that was looking at it wrong, in my opinion. I changed garbage cans too. Guess who I met at the dumpster? The janitor who was busting his ass changing other cans. Familiarity ensued. Went on to think of him by his name, not "the janitor". He would spend a little extra time in my department every week, hanging out, putting a little bit of extra elbow grease. A great example of this philosophy in action.
Not if empowered correctly and given tools to explore new solutions, especially if its a collaborative environment. If ends up being, "you see a problem before anyone else sees it you own it and get to be part of a better solution".
edit: to clarify, you might see a problem that nobody else sees because you have a unique or outside perspective. You take it to your direct, he takes it across to the other department. Maybe it's nothing, good effort kid, keep paying attention. Or maybe they say "hey, we didn't think of that..." and collaborative problem solving ensues.
That sounds like an amazing working environment. Where do I sign up?
K3wp · 3 points · Posted at 19:50:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It does. But it's really the auditors, QA and manager that are supposed to be doing that (and setting priorities). This is one reason they have those anonymous suggestion boxes/helplines. So employees can report an issue without fear of retribution, or being expected to put in unpaid overtime to fix it.
I've also been in the situation where we had two people quit on my team and I ended up picking up some of their duties (and outsourcing the rest). When a third engineer quit I had to put my foot down and say, "Nope, you need to fill this position, fully outsource it or shut down the service. I can't take on any more responsibilities."
The older I get the more I appreciate the benefits of specialization and acquiring deep technical knowledge. The Jacks of all trades ultimately becomes masters of none.
Come join us :) If you can live with all the other shit going on here :)
K3wp · 2 points · Posted at 19:44:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I've worked in IT for 20+ years and that's a general rule of thumb. "If you touch it, you own it."
Meaning, if you fix someones IT problem 'pro bono', you are going to be on the hook for every problem with it from now on. Forever. So don't do that.
Another fun one is "If you are complaining about a bug or missing feature, you have just volunteered to fix or implement it." This helps put a stop to bike shedding. People aren't going to complain as much about the color of the bike shed if they are going to be on the hook for painting it.
I wish my job was like this. I work in IT, and this is currently how I attempt to work within the large company I work for; however, it's next to impossible when no one understands communication or has very little working knowledge on proprietary programs. I'd love to be able to make a collaborative effort in resolving issues more efficiently, but it gets lost in translation.
IT is a tough one because you're right, everything involved is so inherently technical. I didn't get to work with them until we did a big upgrade of our sales software. Due to the encouragement I had received, I sought out their offices and the result was one on one time with some of their top guys. I got explain what it was I did (and needed) in my own words, and they showed me how to get it done. They did the same for my boss, who got really good at backend stuff, and then she showed me the parts of that which applied to what I did. Having the collaborative philosophy in place empowered everyone involved to be open enough to allow all of this to happen.
Any tips on how to enforce this mentality. Some people are quite well versed in the different roles and understand how a business works, others are happy to sit back and only do what they're told.
They made sure to bring it up in all of the company wide meetings. It helped that my direct manager had a great attitude and championed the mentality as well. She would show me examples and involve me. The company also compensated me fairly so I never had a reason to play the "I'm not motivated enough card." I ended up championing it as I grew within the company, and would regularly reinforce the virtues in my own department meetings. I imagine this was happening company-wide at every level, so when we went across departments they all felt the same way. We all expected it and were open to it.
I CANNOT tell you how this is the RIGHT attitude to have.
That's what I tell my friends : Never pigeonhole yourself.
A friend was telling me that he was in the planning section of a civil engineering project but that the company didn't get a lot of new projects & so, there was not a lot of planning to do i.e he didn't have a lot to do. This made him bored.
I told him to get grinding in the design phase of the project.
I've met a few big cheeses like this. These guys are the absolute best to work with. On the other side of the coin, if you prove you're worth their time they'll usually let you in on some stuff beyond your pay grade if they think it will help you learn and grow. Your Dad sounds like a good dude I hope you follow in his footsteps.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 20:15:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I never wanted to be a sales guy making promises I had no idea could be kept or not, thankfully this company gave me the support I needed to keep this from happening.
That's a tough situation. If you have it in you, you can champion it and try to foster the growth of this idea in your coworkers' mindsets. You might be able to pitch your bosses on this idea as well.
I work in HR. Sometimes we have the opposite - people who feel they are cheated if they do anything outside their job description. The people who are bitter they're not promoted are often the same people who never volunteer for special projects that will expand their skill-set, and would look good on their resume.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 20:03:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Every once in a while my company pairs everyone with somebody from another department and you spend an entire day with them, half at their job and half at yours. It's actually pretty fun and useful experience. It's nice to get a little perspective on how things are for others in the company.
I'm still young, only 21 and still in college but I've worked at 2 restaurants. First one was a a busboy job, and I had these two waiters that I would always be paired with, and they were lazy as fuck. Never bussed a single plate back to the dishwasher. They would bring out a rack with wheels on it, put the plates on there, and make me take back every single one to the dishwasher. Every time I passed by them, they would tell me to do something, and I would have to do it. Even if I said I was extremely busy and have a lot to do, they would not give a fuck and still make me do what they wanted. Managers loved them too and got drinks with them all the time.
Ended up telling them to not be so fucking lazy and to use their two feet and two hands to get somebody their coffee. Quit right after I said that after four months.
Got a new job at a new restaurant, and it's so different. Our main motto is "hospitality towards everyone, not just the customers." Waiters feel bad if they tell me to bring a plate back to the dishwasher. Such a better system with better food and a much higher yelp rating.
This mentality is extra useful in service jobs, especially if everyone on your crew believes in it. There's ALWAYS something to do in service but the specific tasks often shift in priority--if everyone can do everything, you can put out fires faster (sometimes literally) and still maintain smooth and consistent delivery of your overall output (tops and tickets). Which will keep Chef and the GM happy, and probably earn you more job security, tips, and shift preference.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 15:11:53 on August 18, 2017 · (Permalink)
Should've clarified more. I was okay with bussing tables, but they had me do a lot of extra things that was not in my job description. Get coffee, get iced tea, shred cheese on their meal, cut bread.
While I had a lot of tables to bus, they would still make me do things outside of my job description that was in theirs. They would not help me out, and I would help them out in every way possible. They wouldn't care that I had a host telling me I needed to clean a table for new guests to arrive.
It's known for a waiter to grab the plates after the guests are done with the meal, and the busboy is supposed to bus the glasses and whatever is remaining on the table. That's how a good restaurant business works.
Sounds like such a radical policy, I really thought it was going to have a more disastrous ending. It seems almost naive, but it worked, so clearly not!
Hahaha! Well like I said I didn't start engineering overnight but over time I familiarized myself as much as I could with what they were doing which laid the ground for collaboration.
At the company I started with when I started college, everybody was essentially expected to have an idea of all the jobs lest they were required. I was pretty good at learning the other jobs and basically ended up knowing everything from the accounting to the operations, which resulted in me becoming the de facto "troubleshooter", especially with the occasional turnover due to the high stress environment
The boss followed the philosophy of "toss employee into water and they'll either learn to swim or drown" as a test to determine if they could handle the speed of growth he was aiming for. Worked out in the end, seeing as in less than 5 years there was an entire shift in operations and growth to a mid-level business with minimal interruption because the remaining employees were capable of picking up the loose ends. The downside of this approach was of course there were remnants from every employee that eventually went under, which was where I was supposed to come in, dig through the mess, and piece things back together.
Definitely helped get me experience to start my own consulting company & apparel/accessories business(work in progress of course. I've been financially pre-occupied thus not able to devote as much time as I'd want to get things moving).
There's a huge difference between knowing how to do someone's job and doing it. When I have shit I need to get done, I can't also be doing someone else's job. That's not how it works when I need to finish my things.
I feel you. Prioritization of responsibilities certainly comes into play. When the jobs are mutually conducive, I always try to go for it. Example: Walking to a meeting, a few minutes early, see an overflowing garbage bin, change it real quick on my way. That type of thing. If it was a super important meeting and I hadn't built in a little bit of early time, the bin would have had to wait.
OMG this. I am so tired of hearing people bitching about how other people do their job when they have no idea what they're talking about. It's so easy to throw stones.
And these same people turn around and immediately complain that other people are criticizing how they do their job. People are so self-centered they don't even recognize what they are doing.
Stiouxy · 14 points · Posted at 18:40:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Those who live in glass houses should change clothes in the basement.
It's that, and people honestly have no concept for the difficulty involved in something they don't have to do themselves.
You see it all the time, especially with things like sports. Ever see a guy screaming at his TV that something was so easy and he could do it in his sleep so why can't the professional do it the right way? And then you realize the guy probably couldn't huff and puff his sedentary arse halfway down the field, let alone make that super easy catch or run he was yelling about.
People look at something and overestimate their ability to do it, which means they think it's so simple.
The majority of my Facebook friends are cops or wives of cops. They have a tough job but I noticed that their mentality changes after they 're in the force. Everything is black and white to them. You're either a bad guy or not, everyone arrested is guilty, and the only reason why crime continues is because no one talks to the cops.
People act like it's the cops responsibility to end crime but they can't undo years of economic hardship and abuse.
10-6 · 2 points · Posted at 20:41:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Honestly, we recognize the grey area, but 99.9% of the time it doesn't matter. The vast majority of people arrested are guilty, and while people refusing to talk does help crime continue it is but a small part of the problem. The biggest problem is that crime does pay, and it pays pretty fucking good. You have people who are willing to risk jail to get that dope money because when they aren't in jail they are living like kings. That is the main problem.
I work in a factory and the truth is my colleagues can be really lazy, they have a assigned work and instead of doing it, they are reading newspaper. Iam not saying I am not lazy because I am but I never abused it the way someone had to do it instead of me.
Factory worker here, I know exactly what you mean.
devoidz · 2 points · Posted at 19:28:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Every day someone bitches at my job. The why is there 20 cash registers and only 2 open job. I run the front end over night, and I take over at 10pm. I usually walk into all sorts of fuckery. Why isn't that open, why can't you open that? Why are you closing this?
I don't have time to explain it to people, not that they would listen. But we only have a finite number of people, and sometimes I have to shift them to not have problems later.
My particular store does a lot better with staffing than other stores, we usually have several registers open even late, and 8 self check outs.
One time a guy threw a fit because I sent the guy running self check on break instead of opening a register. We were resetting from one day to another. He had to go to break then, so he could be back to open it after reset. Because i wouldn't have anyone to break him after.
He wouldn't have cared, put him on another register. I need to buy this now! Because fuck us. We don't need breaks right? You can't wait in line for a few minutes.
I have a restaurant and people always have a great idea on how it could be run better. My response is always the same. You really need to think about starting your own restaurant. Pluckers them right up.
This could go two directions. Maybe they do have a good idea that would lower costs or make something more efficient.
Or, it could be that their idea is about as brilliant as using their tongue to force a corn-studded turd through their teeth, in order to extract the corn, so it can be used again.
This is how most managers/employers feel. Some employees have a high opinion of their own intellect and think that their bosses have an unlimited supply of money.
It's easy to throw money at every problem, but in real life you have to pick and choose
I always tell people, if they could have just, then they probably would have just. There's likely a good reason they didn't.
Colyer · 13 points · Posted at 18:37:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I recently took over a new position. I asked the outgoing person "Why do we do this thing that stupid way?" She answered "Because accounting is stuck in their ways." So a week into the job, I asked accounting to change it and it was done same day.
So I'd say assume competence (don't go into a conversation telling people how to do their jobs) but it's a good idea to ask anyway.
This seems a bit different because you were actually going into the position and had knowledge in the field re: what would make your job easier. As opposed to someone saying "why didn't the senator just get rid of that law?" or something about efficiency in your job that they know nothing about.
Colyer · 1 points · Posted at 20:07:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, I guess. I read it as being in a professional context, but now I realise there's nothing in the OP that signifies that.
People don't realize that if people are spending 20-40 hours per week at that job, chances are that they've already considered what is being suggested and they're not doing it for a reason
Not sure why everyone is giving everyone else the benefit of the doubt all the sudden. Plenty of more efficient solutions are not done because of politics, inertia, fear or change, incompetence, nepotism, or a million other reasons.
A lot of people have a limited capacity for problem solving to begin with, or get very comfortable with only one or two methods and cant progress beyond them if the situation calls for it--instead, they just call IT!
Yes! Or wondering why someone hasn't been fired because you personally think their work is substandard. There's a lot of work that goes into firing someone, not to mention the cost of hiring someone else. Plus, who says the next person you hire is any more qualified? Sometimes management knows someone isn't doing the best job, but sometimes they accept it because it's not bad enough to warrant the effort it takes to replace them.
I try to educate my co-workers a lot of times on shit like this. A perfect example came up the other day actually. I'm originally from Southern California, and I left to move to Cleveland at the peak of the draught we just had.
One of my co-workers was astonished that California could be in a draught because we lived on the coast. "Why don't they just take the salt out of the water man? I don't get it! I should move to California and open a salt removing plant (desalinstion). I'd be rich" I had to explain to him that currently, the cost of desalinstion is way to high, and it's not just a simple as "taking the salt out of water."
He then said Ohio should just sell our water to California (thinking that we were running out of bottled water I guess?) And I had to explain just how much water would have to be moved overland or the cost of building and aquaduct across country, plus the now added cost to Californians for their new imported water, not to mention most Ohians would not be okay with selling their valuable resource to another state.
It's much easier for people to assume complex problems have a very easy solution that could be thought up by anyone, rather than accept that they have no idea how to fix something that's broken.
Ugh I work in research and I could go on about this for days. It takes a certain level of arrogance in a person to believe that they, someone with absolutely zero background in or knowledge of this extremely complicated and long-standing problem, are the first and only person to have thought of this overly-simplified solution to this extremely complicated problem. A problem which literal hundreds of people with combined multiple centuries of education, and extensive knowledge and understanding of the problem and its complexity, are working on. If it were that easy, the problem would be solved by now, asshat.
Heck, SoCal already takes a lot of it's water from NorCal*, and it causes all kinds of issies in local politics.
*SoCal cities basically bought water rights in areas of NorCal a loooong time ago under the radar, and now a lot of rural citizens openly hate SoCal for it.
To be fair, Sydney actually does this. 15% of our water supply comes from the desalination plant, with the capacity of it being 30% of our supply
tpklus · 5 points · Posted at 18:06:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I work with a large tech company in a local office alone with clients coming in everyday. They get upset when I don't give out the office number. Sorry, but I get 20 calls a day from non-clients, imagine if I added all 500+ of locals to the mix. I wouldn't be able to do my job. They can contact online support like everyone else.
[deleted] · 8 points · Posted at 18:00:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm a freelancer and I do not take on clients if they use the word "just" in the description of what they want me to do.
Jqerty · 5 points · Posted at 17:41:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"Why can't you just copy the Anti-Gravity engines u/Area51_IT_Dept, you had no trouble adapting the transmission signals to every day wifi?"
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 18:33:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Who knew healthcare could be so complicated?
-Tom- · 5 points · Posted at 17:27:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How about when I've done their job and I had to do it when I was doing their job but now that I transitioned into a new position the task followed me even though it ends up with me waiting on the other person to get their stuff done so I can do "the last mile" of the task that I had no need to be involved in...
I tell my team at work that if they start a sentence with "if they would just..." or "why can't they..." (with the "they" being another team or department) that I will always just give the complainer that job to do. Suddenly, we're the Mack-daddies of synergy and communication.
My old boss used to like the phrase "if you always do what you've always done then you will always get what you always got" or something along those lines. Just because someone does a job in a certain way and it gets the job done, doesn't mean it's the only or the best way to do something. A fresh set of eyes or a little outside influence can help
I do utility locating for excavators and such. The big construction companies in my city get a lot of locates done, so they are regular "customers". Some of the foremen are so bad for this.
"This should only take you 20 minutes, there are no buried utilities in this area anyways."
"Actually no, there are buried utilities here, and it's probably gonna take me around 2 hours to do the locate."
"What do you mean? Don't you just yadda yadda yadda yadda. The last locate I had done in this area, it only took 20 minutes."
"Well, either the previous locator took some serious shortcuts, or this is a newly installed utility duct. (Or you really don't know what the fuck you're talking about, just let me do my fucking job asshole)."
Or clueless homeowners building a fence who proceed to tell me "exactly" where all there services are buried. And then when I do my job and locate them precisely, they get all confused and question my locate because the gas is actually fed from the back alley, not from your neighbour's garage, like you seem to think it does. It's not like I do this a dozen times a day, and have thousands of dollars of equipment, and have access to all the drawings from all the utility providers that show me where they are.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:06:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My old boss had a theory that it usually took 5 years for an employee to be 100% operational in all aspect of the work, my current boss says that any bloke with a high school diploma and 2 hours of training is ready to go 100%
"Why don't the devs ever implement this list of 1000 items I wanted changed that caters to my every whim? It's easy! They just need to sit in front of a few strings of code, type some shit in and magic happens! They don't do this because they have a personal vendetta against me and my original ideas!!"
Giving ideas and suggestions is fine, getting mad when stuff doesn't change immediately is asinine.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:26:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Leans way the fuck over the espresso bar to say "Are you making that with whole milk?" Yes bitch, because it ain't your drink. Your drink will have nonfat, now get your ratchet cigarette breath out of my face, it's a health code violation.
Or when someone who knows nothing about running a business wants to tell you how to run yours "better "
jimethn · 1 points · Posted at 18:42:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"If you were in their shoes.... you'd be doing the exact same thing, because then you'd have all of their experiences and perspective rather than your own!"
At my first job, we were told that if you were to say "That's not my job" while working, you'd be fired on the spot. Saw it happen to one guy two weeks in, never again.
It should be noted that they're not always wrong. Often, when someone is doing a job for a long time, technology improves and creates much more efficient ways to do the work, but workers who have grown used to an old system stick with it because of familiarity.
xelex4 · 1 points · Posted at 18:55:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I disagree with this. There are cases where the person is just completely inept and should not be in that position.
God people do this shit when you're trying to help with web design or SEO or anything really that's related to the internet/computers. Bitch, you hired me to help you not to run with your ideas that weren't working in the first place.
And then you get blamed when their website tanks and does less business than ever before.
I work food service, as a cashier, but I spend several hours a day prepping food. I also am in charge of cleaning the entire dining room throughout service, along with other tasks. My little brother got pissy at me one day for saying I was tired because all I do is "stand around and take people's money". The collective family glare was enough to shut him up for the rest of dinner
I don't have a problem with doing someone else's job. It's when I repeatedly have to do it and other people get complacent despite me going over with them the importance of teamwork and doing equal work. Or you know return the favor once inside awhile
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:09:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"It's just working in a shop."
"It's just folding T-shirts."
FUCK OFF!
4Eights · 1 points · Posted at 19:11:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I always think about the episode of the Office where Dunder Mifflin is declaring bankruptcy and Oscar spends the whole episode bitching to anyone who will listen about how simple it would be to fix the company and run it properly. So later Michael calls Oscar up in front of the executives and asks him for his simple plan to get the business out of debt and fix everything. Oscar bumbles and ends up running out of the room without saying anything of substance.
I think my least favorite phrasing of this is "I would have..." or "next time, this is what you do." Followed by something that would get me fired and is totally extra as hell. I don't need to "hold my clients accountable." I do hold them accountable, which is why I'm explaining cancellations to the same grown man every single week like he's never made an appointment before in his life.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:16:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In my experience, it actually IS easier to do stuff that other people request/demand - but good luck making the supervisors understand that.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:18:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This problem manifests itself to a large degree whenever the topic of law enforcement comes up on reddit, especially in threads about some story of alleged police misconduct. Reddit is just utterly derptastic when it comes to this.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:25:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
To be fair I've done other people's jobs, the reason they didn't do certain things was due to laziness
afqrzv · 1 points · Posted at 19:30:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just had this at work. "Why dont you just reset the password"
1) You're not an employee
2) There's no manager for the group account
3) I cannot verify you in our system
4) The password is set to never expire so its never changed so how is it wrong
there's always a list of reasons why we cant just "do it"
I once had a manager try and simplify our job with a one liner. It really pissed me off. No, sorry you don't get to do that to us. I do it 8hrs a day 5 days a week. Please tell me again how hard it is to be a manager and lets turn this table around so I can belittle your job to.
alegonz · 1 points · Posted at 19:33:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
doing someone else's job. "Why can't they just do this or that? It would be so much better?" easier said than done.
debango · 1 points · Posted at 19:39:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My friend kind of does this, I'll mention something about how scientists aren't quite sure why we need sleep. She'll give her answer and say "that's probably why"... you're right! Because obviously the people studying the matter didn't think of what you said!!! Hell let's hire you to figure it out!
Yaa40 · 1 points · Posted at 19:41:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is happening to me these days.
I have a newer position that didn't exist before me and I'm going on a 2 week vacation, And I'm writing down the essentials. All of a sudden I understand the amount of things I take care of
THIS. I am a photographer who uses a film camera and I was out with my girlfriend and asked her to pose yesterday to compose a creative shot. After 5 seconds, she says "Did you take it? Jeez you take so long. Is this how you are when you do weddings?"
Camoral · 1 points · Posted at 19:50:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I've found that if you point out why what the person is doing is necessary/efficient, people get very angry. I didn't even think of myself as insulting somebody when I did it at first. It was just conversation to pass the time and guessing at possible causes. The usual response ended up being that I put too much thought in it and that I'm a jerk pointing it out. Essentially, they wanted to gripe, but thought that just settling for "This guy is a stupid asshole and I hate him because I have to wait," was too childish.
The best example of this is professional sports. It's so comical to watch couch potatoes scream at the television as if they have any idea what it takes to do what they do. I am guilty of this myself with the minimal sports I watch.
Yeah cyclists often seem to be under the impression that the rules of the road and things like right of way don't apply to them, despite being completely unprotected.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:59:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Man, i experience drivers doing crazy shit all the time. I'm in a wheelchair and when i go out, drivers constantly break road rules when they see me. Like stopping in the middle of the road so i can cross,when i could have just gone behind them if they'd kept going etc. I know people think they are being nice, but the majority of the time there is no actual benefit to me with what they are doing and their unpredictability is very dangerous. As a logical human being, i would prefer if people just followed the road rules instead of making a show of their generosity and selflessness so they can pat themselves on the back about being nice to a disabled girl
I grew up in North America and when my bf from the UK moved over he was always complaining about people bumping into him and was always really frustrated when we'd be walking downtown or pretty much anytime we'd be passing people. I couldn't figure out what was going on until I moved to his hometown and suddenly I was always accidentally bodychecking people and it seemed like no one knew how to walk past me. I wonder if it has anything to do with what side of the road we drive on maybe you're used to passing people on sidewalks this way too?
[deleted] · 5 points · Posted at 17:33:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I am in Canada and I always move to the right. And all the immigrants move to their left because they came here from shit countries so we just run into each other anyway. "Sorry!" [shoves you into mud]
I usually step to the side and slow down to give others a chance to walk around me - unless of course I'm late for something important and you're sauntering around at half the average walking speed three people abreast. You'd better not act surprised when you're suddenly kissing the pavement in that case, with my crazy bitch-ass running past you screaming "SoooOooOoooorrryyyyyy!", trailing my purse behind me like a lunatic.
I find it is important and helpful to indicate the direction you are stepping in to avoid a collision. If I step right, I put my right arm forward and turn my body slightly to make it obvious which side they should pass.
If they step in the same direction as me, I find it best to just stop right there and wait for them to make the next move. Stepping the other way usually just initiates an awkward looking dance that ends with an embarrassed laugh or chuckle.
SwenKa · 2 points · Posted at 17:25:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This feels recursive, and I haven't taken cursive since 3rd grade.
If these rules are implemented for pedestrians, will I be issued an obnoxious horn/klaxon to let people know that I am displeased when they decide to stop in the middle of the sidewalk, in the middle of a doorway, or at the top of an escalator.
hazie · 1 points · Posted at 18:48:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Fuck you man, my uncle was killed by a drink walker.
I thought this too, but it isn't very efficient to have stop signs in hallways and use turn signals while walking.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:39:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And really the only rule to remember is be aware of the traffic around you. The main problem as I experience every day is people being completely immersed in their own world. I get this will be the case with younger people (kids and teenagers) and older people, but there is no excuse for grown adults to be standing around looking at their phone in the middle of a busy walk traffic. This is especially true in subways and places of public transit.
I thought I was the only person who would say this! Earlier I was walking down the stairs to the train platform and a guy actually pushed my bag to get me to hurry up. I was thinking you wouldn't do that in a car would you! And when people in front of you don't look behind before weaving left and right, argh!
[deleted] · 4 points · Posted at 17:19:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's what I do. We drive on the right side here so if someone is coming my way from the opposite side, I walk by them on my right side so they can walk on their right side.
Tho I once got shouted at "why the hell I'm walking on the right side". Told that old guy "because that's also where we drive"...
I like to cut in front of people as we're walking and then start to slow down.
lyvanna · 1 points · Posted at 19:42:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In Norway we walk on the left side of the road, vehicles go on the right (including bikes). I usually just do that on sidewalks as well. Mostly because my dog is to my left and I don't want him in between us.
Shuk247 · 5 points · Posted at 16:43:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yep, that's how I work it. Most of the time it works fine... but there are those occasions where I think, I hope he doesn't drive like he walks.
In the US this seems to be the norm. Drive on the right and we walk on the right.
But in Europe I don't see people obeying this rule at all. Over there it appears a 50/50 coin toss as to which side of the sidewalk you'll use at any given interaction.
They go and tell people to walk on the left, but then on the escalators you're supposed to stand on the right? And that's within the same tube station. Fuck, London, get your shit together!
This makes most sense, and I thought it would be the common thing to do. The whole flow of pedestrian traffic is like this where I come from, you always walk on your right side (just like traffic on roads works here). Same for bicycles in case there is only a bikeway on one side of the road.
What happens when wal mart decides to make the door on the left the one you should walk trough to get in and out? Whether your entering or exiting, they have the door on the left. In america.....
Actually, pedestrians should walk on the left side. The idea is that you don't ever want to have oncoming vehicle traffic behind you as you walk, so it's safer to walk "into traffic." Since this is how one should walk on the side of a road, it makes sense to simply use the same metric everywhere.
That doesn't make sense. That logic only applies if everyone walks in one direction on a given side of a street. But in reality, people walk in both directions on both sides (and this makes a lot of sense for pedestrian traffic). Therefore, pedestrians should walk on the right side of the sidewalk to see oncoming traffic.
Hm. I suppose the left side of the road would be the right side of the sidewalk.
Ma8e · 2 points · Posted at 17:58:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Except when you walk on the side of a road and there's no sidewalks. Then you always walk so that you see the traffic approaching. I.e., in North America you walk on the left side of the of the road to not be hit by a car from behind.
The same rule applies on a combined pedestrian bicycle path. You walk on the left side so you see the bicycles the approaching bicycles that pass closest to you.
Finally, why change the rule when there's no other traffic. Ergo, you always pass on the left when you walk.
I also turn my shoulders in the direction I'm going, even though I'm still walking straight forward. turn my upper body right, and the people read that they need to move to their right.
I think about this at Walmart almost every time. Didn't know it was possible to get road rage while walking but when someone stops to figure out what they are looking for they always seem to think it's a good idea to place their shopping cart diagonally across the lane. Fuck going anywhere to shop for things.
Ya I noticed this when I moved from India to America. Here I walk on the right side of the walkway to avoid incoming pedestrians. Over in India it was generally on the left side, although there are so many people that my main aim was to avoid head on collision.
I guess my rule of walking straight through people who take a tight, blind left around a corner still stands in this context.
sunk818 · 1 points · Posted at 18:11:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
in some countries people drive on the left and right side of the road depending on the region you are in. my rule of thumb is to always yield early. be gracious. except when i'm in new york, i just try knock you down with a shoulder check if you're in my lane.
driving is to walking like internet commenting is to real human contact. The increased anonymity behind the wheel, the lack of body language and verbal social cues causes every perceived slight to be magnified, and we do things driving we'd never do walking down a busy sidewalk.
or you make eye contact and then look where you plan to walk and smile. Works 90% of the time. 100% of the time if you just go to the right and do the same.
lf11 · 1 points · Posted at 19:17:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I walk the way people should drive, and walking is ever so much more straightforward.
As someone who has traveled, this generally works. In America, you walk on the right. In Sydney Australia, you walk on the left. But for some unknown reason this goes all to shit in London. Those people cross streets anywhere and weave between people in all damn directions.
ego1014 · 1 points · Posted at 19:51:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Until you go to Walmart. All that logic is thrown to the wind.
I found while I was at college international students from countries who drove on the left, walked on the left side while most everyone else walked on the right.
Lcat84 · 0 points · Posted at 18:04:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
God this... so many fucking idiots driving 2000 lbs of steel weapons.
Like the first time I read 'Welp'. Felt so weird first time I read it in my head but once I said it out loud it all made sense, and it has made its way into my text vocabulary.
my theory is that it's something like "oh, sorry" or anything else starting with "oh" but then you realize that talking here is weird so you shut your mouth...
and hey, saying "oh" and quickly shutting your mouth is exactly how you'd say "ohp"
I angle my upper torso in the direction as well, it adds to the subconscious processing of my directional intent, even though my legs are still walking straight ahead.
Weird, my friends and I have adapted this sound to be a common word in our mini vernacular (written over text and in speech). It's almost become and inside joke where we say/write "opppe!" when someone does or says something unexpected.
More of a combo between "Oh" and "Oops", not that either of those reeeeally have any meaning in a sidewalk duel.... Other than take the awkwardness of both people not knowing how to walk out of the situation, and direct attention towards what's being heard, and imediately in front of them
I'm from the school of "whup" but I also understand the rules of the sidewalk match the rules of the road for any given country.
And always pass people on the left.
Yeah, I say "whup" all the time. I basically just mutter it over and over whenever I'm walking through a crowd. Sometimes I catch myself and realize I must sound like a psycho, but then I realize that nobody really cares.
[deleted] · 6 points · Posted at 18:44:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Followed by a swift "eh"
vadan · 14 points · Posted at 18:10:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What does this mean?
draykow · 18 points · Posted at 18:48:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Took me a while, too.
I think they're referring to the sound that's synonymous with "whoops" or "oops" that a large number of people tend to make when they accidentally bump into someone else or have a close call (like when passing on a sidewalk).
I'm from California and I tend to add a w sound at the beginning ("whoops" without the s sound). Others I've known tend to say "upp" or the first syllable of "uh-oh" when doing the same.
vadan · 3 points · Posted at 20:03:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ah, Thank you. East coaster and normally 'whoops' or 'oops' is what I hear too.
I had no idea anyone else did this! I'm from Canada, and I see other Canadians in this thread have noticed it, but I've never heard anyone else make the "ope" noise in my area, so I have no idea where I picked it up from... So weird.
I've somehow managed to dig my self into the habit of saying "woah there" in mccree's voice... it started as a joke and now i do it without even thinking
Look down at the area you are moving toward. People tend to look at where your eyes are focused to gauge where you're going and will adjust to avoid you. Works most of the time.
This is the right answer. If you look purposefully where you're going people will get out of your way.
VaelinX · 18 points · Posted at 18:45:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But then you look at the oncoming person's eyes... and they are looking to you to see where you are going. Now you hold each other's gaze, firm in the knowledge that you both are purposefully walking toward each other - as that is where your gazes are locked.
You both seem to make a motion to turn, but hesitate. If you continue on this path you will collide with each other; but, now that you consider colliding with this stranger on the street, you are not longer sure that you wish to avoid that course of action.
This person, this stranger. So familiar, yet separate from you. We all seek that out - another, separate person that we understand intimately. And so you stay the course, this collision course with this attractive and familiar stranger on the street.
And then. Right before your faces meet, as you are considering what to do: do you speak? No. Better to act and not ruin this perfect moment of connection. As you are face to face, you can hear their breath, see the lines on their lips, count the freckles under their eyes... you smash your forehead into the mirror. What asshole leaves a mirror standing in the middle of a sidewalk anyway? We walk with our eyes up to avoid this bullshit!
VaelinX · 2 points · Posted at 19:41:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Perhaps, unless you are me. I started to make a real comment, then got distracted with a simulation I was running... when I came back I decided to have fun finishing it.
Jirb30 · 2 points · Posted at 19:24:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If they still don't seem to get it, there's a great trick, grab their red and white stick and yell "I'm walking here... What are u blind or something?!? "
That should work
[deleted] · 5 points · Posted at 17:37:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
until some fat bitch runs into you and says, "you're on the 'wrong side' of the sidewalk," which happened to me the other day. She got plowed-into by me and a friendly, "Watch it, lady!!" Canada is so polite.
When walking on a road you want to walk on the opposite side so you can see the cars closest to you approach. If there isnt enough room for you when two cars pass each other you will be able to notice and get out of the way. That's a lot harder if you walk on the same side as cars drive on because they will come from behind.
I actually do the exact opposite after reading some "psychology lifehack" thread a couple years ago. If I am walking down the sidewalk and a group of people are coming towards me taking up the whole sidewalk I purposely turn my head to make it look like I am not watching where I am going. Bc of my sunglasses they just can't tell that I am still watching. Every time they will move out of the way. I think since they believe you aren't paying attention they have to take it upon themselves to avoid the collision.
I usually just stop when I'm right in front of them giving them the option of running into me or going around. Kinda a dick move but I get tired of this shit
Living in NYC says that is not true. I am a battering ram of intention when I walk, but that doesn't always work in Midtown at 5:30.
If I walk through a small city though, I never have problems, not because I can walk with more purpose, but because there's more space and I just go around people more easily.
Even when dealing with locals. People just don't pay attention.
I'm like you though. I've had colleagues see me out and about and they've all agreed, i am like "bullet out of a gun" just going at full speed, spinning around people, ducking and weaving. It's like a sport after a while.
I have something similar going on in supermarkets, where I seem to be the only person aware of the fact that 2 people can't exist simultaneously in the same space.
zdakat · 12 points · Posted at 17:50:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"let me park my basket on one side,then walk to the other side so I'm taking up both spaces,and chat with someone in person or on the phone"
Seicair · 3 points · Posted at 19:39:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not just on one side, but about a foot away from the shelves and at an angle, taking up as much of the aisle as possible!
Something similar happens to me when I'm walking behind people and trying to get around.
I'll start moving to the right so I can pass them, and without fail, they drift to the right, blocking me. Then I'll start moving to the left... and they start drifting that way too.
I don't know if it's conscious or not, but it happens frequently enough to be annoying.
You're not a pedestrian magnet, there's just a lot of really dumb people
corobo · 2 points · Posted at 05:39:55 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
People tend to look at where your eyes are focused to gauge where you're going and will adjust to avoid you
Are you also doing this part? You have to avoid them too. From their point of view you're the inconvenient extra in the show about their life, other peoples' only motivation to not get in your way is if you're going to barrel them over.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 06:07:07 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
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corobo · 1 points · Posted at 06:37:26 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah flip it around, are you looking at their eyes to see where they are going?
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 17:38:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
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[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 17:48:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
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zdakat · 1 points · Posted at 17:49:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sorta except in real life people will move out the way.
Hhhyyu · 1 points · Posted at 18:46:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I have to turn off peripheral vision first.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:23:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I have the exact opposite, people clear a path in front of me, it has kinda of giving me a complex. I try to smile a lot but I think it makes it worse.
I'm that way. My kids account it to my resting bitch face & very loud body language. It generally works for me. In a crowd setting my FAM just follows in my wake as I break trail!
It's the fucking corners. I'm not terribly annoyed by people walking on the wrong side in an open area, it's when they hug the interior wall on a blind corner.
Example: If you live in a country where you walk/drive on the right side, it's your right to cling as closely to the right-hand wall when making a right turn. It's not your responsibility to leave room for someone taking the same path from the oncoming direction that you may or may not be able to see.
But if you're making a left turn around a blind corner, you had better fucking leave some room.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:15:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Thats your problem. Dont try to coordinate. Just walk with purpose, ignore everyone, keep your gaze high but dont look at anyone. Just look past them where you intend to go. They will move.
You need to be ready to just mow people down. It will almost never happen, but you have to not give a shit if it does. Things will be so much easier.
eazyd · 4 points · Posted at 15:46:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Agreed, I do this
mgraunk · 5 points · Posted at 16:35:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Alternatively, stare directly into their eyes and do not look away until they turn and run in the opposite direction, leaving the sidewalk clear for your unimpeded passage.
I actually do the opposite with great success....I look beyond the people in front of me, towards where I'm heading in the distance. Then I use my peripheral vision to make minor adjustments left and right....I think most people are assuming I'm not even noticing them, so they're more likely to try and avoid running right into me. Also, you can better plot out your path through the crowd further ahead this way.
zdakat · 2 points · Posted at 17:51:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I seem to get that vibe too. Like they think,even subconciously "uh oh that guy will collide with me,at least I'm aware of where I'm going"
Except for when people are walking in the same direction as you but far slower, and then suddenly want to just stop and spread out while they look at something or discuss what they are going to do next.
Related: Just because you're walking with a group doesn't mean you need to spread out to take up the whole damn area.
No, look at the eyes of the person approaching you. The dance only happens when both people look down.
AjBlue7 · 1 points · Posted at 18:12:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Theres also another tip that conflicts with this one, that says you shouldn't look down at the ground when passing people as you walk as it is a sign of insecurity. Looking at people shows that you are confident and don't care if people notice you looking. Obviously there is a creepy line you don't want to cross from staring too much.
On most sidewalks there are still plenty of oafs that don't care where you're walking, and cultures that don't have an unspoken tendency to"veer right to avoid collision". Hell, there are cultures that don't have "avoid collision".
I look at shoulders and hips (from football). Open your hips and shoulders blatantly (but don’t be a weirdo) in the direction you want to go. That way those of us non-eye contacty autistics won’t have to deal with the social awkwardness of saying “ope.”
This. I moved to a big city where I was walking a lot and was always running into people. I read about looking where you are walking and no longer have this issue.
^ First rule of never having to walk without being on the phone
kaleoh · 1 points · Posted at 19:17:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Saw this answer on reddit about 5 years ago and have been doing successfully ever since. And I have told people about it and they're like oh yea wassup dog.
SOBWAW · 1416 points · Posted at 14:44:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I stand there and flap my arms to make myself look as big as possible. I'll give a soft "caw" sound to indicate that they are intruding on my nest and hope that they turn around and walk the other way. Then I continue on my journey and walk without incident to wherever I am going.
I go to the right and let them decide if they want to go to their right or act like a mentally challenged house fly and bump into me. Once I've decided to go right, that's where I'm going.
Jfreak7 · 2 points · Posted at 17:52:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I do this when there is a group taking up the entire sidewalk. Instead of being forced into the street/grass/squished against the wall, I will stop and tie my shoes. They have to go around.
I just had this debate in an hour car ride, and we came to the conclusion that streets are too narrow for this to be true. You will have bone a block to far
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 16:24:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I walked on a bike path in Sacramento where pedestrians were supposed to walk on the left, presumably so they could see oncoming bicycles. Made sense but it fucked me all up.
I don't know, if someone was walking in my direction and then just zoned the fuck in and headed straight towards me, I'd assume they're the dumb person who doesn't know how to walk
intentionally walk towards them, like a homing missile, moving in their way and looking right at them until we pass each other
I see it as a thrill now rather than getting annoyed at dumb people that don't know how to walk
I'm pretty sure they say something very similar about you after that encounter
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:51:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Same for me. I just aggressively increase speed so that if they don't get out of my way, they'll be flattened. Usually they move after I use that tactic. Also helps I'm 6' tall.
Sproded · -3 points · Posted at 17:50:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Whenever I see couples I always try to walk straight through them
X0AN · 3 points · Posted at 18:06:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Because it's made up :D
jmxo92 · 6 points · Posted at 18:06:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You're supposed to walk opposite of traffic when you're on the sidewalk. This doesn't make sense to what they were replying to though because we're imaging foot traffic only (so just the people on the sidewalk, or in the grocery store)...in which case yes, always walk on the right side and then no one should have to bump into each other
... and now you see why people have differing opinions. :)
I was always of the opinion of "always stay right", but the point about walking opposite car traffic was an insightful one. Maybe they're just applying their sidewalk walking rules to other places.
It's not a common thing, because most people haven't been taught how to walk. It doesn't seem necessary.
However, if you are walking along a road, you should walk "into traffic" so you will have an easier time avoiding being hit by cars. Since you will see the car coming, you can judge whether or not you may be hit.
Since it is a good idea to keep everything consistent, we should also adopt this pattern of behavior on sidewalks, in Wal-Mart, etc. This will make people subconsciously walk on the safer side of roads.
Umm not sidewalk traffic though. It's widely understood that you walk against traffic so you can see what's oncoming and ride bicycles in the direction of traffic.
However, if you're in the sidewalk I suppose that could still be relevant because if you always walk on your right side of the sidewalk you'll be looking directly towards the oncoming traffic.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:24:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Walk on the left side of the road, and the right side of the part you're walking on when people come by - since you can see what's coming and they can't, you're better suited to approaching the road in those situations (which are rare, since they should be on the other side of the road).
No, you don't need to. I never said you did. I'm just an advocate of walk on the right side of the sidewalk no matter what and it just happens that if you're walking on your right side you're facing traffic anyway. I way just using it as a reference for walking along regular roads.
Yeah sorry if it didn't make sense at first lol. I just always try to walk like I drive. I get mad at myself when I catch myself walking on the wrong side of a mall too lol.
Isn't the rule to take to the side that you drive on? Like right for America and Canada, and left for Britain?
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:08:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's what I do anyway
wynden · 1 points · Posted at 18:51:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't know if there's a rule, but this is what I observed when I traveled. The only problem being that the more cosmopolitan the area the less consistency in the walk.
The approach most people in London take: just walk wherever the hell you like, if the other person picks one side, then just gradually drift in that direction while looking at them with horror that you're about to be mugged even though continuing on your original path would have been entirely in the clear.
This is unless you're a smoker, in that case you walk very, very slowly down the middle of every path. Swinging your lit cigarette fire-end first exactly where the oncoming person needs to move. If you're unlucky enough to be taking a drag of the cigarette and you miss your arson/burning opportunity, you can gain a few points by blowing smoke in their direction. Not directly at the face, but a big sweeping move to spread the poison over as long a distance as possible so the oncoming person can't even time their breath to avoid it.
If you have a bag, casually drop it at the oncoming person's foot, obviously.
If you're standing waiting for someone, that's no excuse to just stand at the side out of the way. No stand in the middle with your back to oncoming traffic and move left and right in unpredictable movements. (You're also allowed to cheat by glancing behind you to make sure that the person who has the most difficulty moving quickly - e.g. someone with shopping bags - has to take the largest evasive action.)
That's pretty much how walking in London works.
NSippy · 2 points · Posted at 17:50:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You can scare 100 birds in a field, and they all fly away without bumping into each other/crashing.
2 people can manage to bump into each other in a hallway, let alone when we trample each other to death.
birds pls
pspahn · 3 points · Posted at 17:09:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ah yes, the "Sidewalk Shuffle".
Once, I was approaching this dude who was pretty rough looking. Tear drop tattoo, heavy Pendleton in summer, and I was on Colfax and Washington (the streets in Denver). We were getting nearer each other, and we totally did the sidewalk shuffle. I stopped and asked if he wanted to dance with me. He laughed and kept walking.
An unexpected encounter, to be sure. I thought it was awesome.
The key is to look past someones eye-level (almost above their head). They will most always notice you do not see them coming and will move over to accomodate.
Its like road traffic... if you move through large groups like youd move through traffic and stay in the right lane you should be fine. Except people are stupid.
If your country drives on the right side, always veer to the right. People tend to understand this a bit faster. Also do NOT hesitate even if they come your direction.
_Dia_ · 1 points · Posted at 17:28:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And not to take up the whole sidewalk if you don't have to!
Pet peeve: the guy who can't finish a conversation even though he's leaving it. He walks away crabwise, head turned around and talking, no idea where he's going.
When one of those heads for me, I turn my back, hit a brace, and let the ass make an ass of himself.
Whatever side of the road you drive on is the side of the sidewalk you should walk on. It's that easy! Especially in malls where the kiosks act as the double yellow line. (Currently in a mall and walking around groups of people walking shoulder to shoulder on the wrong side)
Trying to walk in the same direction as the traffic flows (left side in Btitain and right side in the "rest of the world") works for me pretty fine. It is something that should be taught in schools.
A couple years ago my roommate took a class in college about some irrelevant topic. They were having a free class discussion about how often women step aside when someone is walking in their direction rather than men. The men in the class realized "oh man I really don't think who's gonna step aside first. they usually do."
After that story I always stand my ground and it's hilarious to watch people who are walking on my side of the pathway (I stay to the right always) run into me when I stop dead in my tracks even though they are in MY way, not the other way around.
ZNasT · 1 points · Posted at 17:44:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Why can't people just use the rules of the road when walking? See how people can get where they need to go in cars while rarely crashing in to each other? Why not do that while walking as well?
I have two Great Danes. Every day, we go for a walk in the large city park across from my house. Every day, we stay to the right, because that's how traffic works.
Every day, we encounter at least one idiot walking in the other direction and looking at their phone, who looks up at the last minute, freaks the fuck out at the two huge dogs, and glares like it's my fault.
After years of living in NYC and walking the streets I learned the secret to this. By "this," I mean that strange standoff that occurs when neither person knows where the other wants to go and you both end up jumping the gun. The trick is to very obviously turn your head and direct your eyes in the direction you plan to go in, and then just go (most often, to the right). It works 99.9% of the time.
Joonmoy · 1 points · Posted at 18:35:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's right through them, isn't it?
sporket · 1 points · Posted at 18:38:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is why you maintain eye contact on the direction you're going, just past the gaze and shoulder of the other person. Collision or needless small talk avoided.
If you see someone walking towards you and think you may do that awkward "which way do I go shuffle" instead of looking at them, look to the side of them you intend to pass and they'll usually step in the opposite direction since they'll be watching where you're looking
ke2uke · 1 points · Posted at 18:44:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Look over the shoulder of the person you are walking towards in the direction you intend to go and they will go the opposite way, no idea how this works but it does.
np20412 · 1 points · Posted at 18:44:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I always just go to the right, since in the states, that's the side of the road we drive on. Makes the most sense to me.
Yeah... In the US it's traditionally to the right (right side of the road). I actually remember specifically being taught this when led in lines from one place to another in private preschool and kindergarten. My problem is the families that just don't move at all from the center of a walkway, and disrupt the entire flow of a crowd.
Life pro tip: humans use unconscious eye tracking. Make eye contact, look the way you plan to go, then go that way. The other person will unconsciously step the other way without even noticing.
RichWPX · 1 points · Posted at 18:48:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you take the initiative and always walk to the right or left, the other person will follow and go the other way. Just stick to your choice no matter what. The other person will awkwardly change sides if need be
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:58:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I read a great tip for this. If you look over someone's shoulder rather in their eyes, they'll know which way to move. I've been trying it out and it's awesome!
Here's a really low-grade superpower: how to never do the 'crab dance' again.
If you're coming up to someone walking towards you (like on a narrow pavement) and it's not clear who is going which side in order to pass each other, turn your shoulders clearly to the side you intend to go. Eg turn right and walk to the right-hand side.
Exaggerating this movement just a little bit makes it very clear where you're going. The other person will instinctively respond and walk to the opposite side.
This rarely fails. It's one of the few life hacks I consciously use almost every day. I am Nocrabdanceman, and I am getting a cape.
This one I never understood why people give you the "deer in headlights" look for. If I'm walking up to someone I plan on passing I jester them with my hand, if I plan to pass on the right I make a almost last second turn to the right hold out my right hand (almost like I'm going to shake there hand, elbow on the hip) and just past, if I past on the left I use my left hand. No awkwardness, just a clean pass
Actually, I have a story for this. I was at a state park yesterday and riding a bike through a path where bikes are also permitted. I am riding towards a group of Hispanic ladies. They clearly make eye contact with me, I ring my bell, there's no doubt they know I am coming. I tell my friend I'm riding with "I hope they move, or else someone's leg is going to break today." They see me coming. Small path. I have no room because they don't seem to get that in order for me to get room to ride past, I need them to move to the side. They keep laughing and don't move. So naturally, I yell "Watch out!" and I crash right into one of them. The woman gets pissed at ME because I was biking and SHE didn't move out of the way when she saw a huge bike coming. So naturally, you're going to get hurt if I have no way to just move past you. Jesus.
I always move first and early. If they're on the right, I move left before there's any question about who's walking into who. If they move with me I'm going to look at them like they're stupid
FAA regulations state that if two airplanes are on a course that will result in a head-on collision, both airplanes must move to their respective right. Now I'm not saying I'll necessarily be walking anywhere approaching anyone's mothers, but you can be damn sure I'll probably default to right anyway
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:26:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Also where to stand when you're not walking up the escalator. Hint: It's the same side of the road you drive on and the same side of the sidewalk you walk on. Not that hard.
So true. From my experience it depends on which country you're in and not necessarily which side you drive. When I was in China, they drive on the same side but when walking they pass on the left not right.
This was weird for me because generally they walk on the right, but when coming up on someone head-on (while walking) you pass on their left side.
I learned this quickly after a few awkward encounters. Once I started side stepping left it stopped. Such a weird experience.
You move to the right, just like when you walked single file down the hall in elementary school... or drive in traffic. Unless you're from a place where they drive on the left. The you move to the left. I thought this was common knowledge.
iveaux · 1 points · Posted at 19:48:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Look over their shoulder and walk to that side. If they are looking up and are aware, they you will pass with no problem. Example.. look over their left shoulder and you go to the right of them.
Here in Germany it's ALWAYS to the right. More than once I've seen a look of panicked determination in people's eyes that tells they'd rather collide head-on with me than go left.
This can be your fault too. The key is to always look where you are going - 99% of people will take the cue and stay out of your way. In other words, don't look at them because then you both just get confused.
Mablun · 1 points · Posted at 20:02:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This reminds me of the joke where an elderly women heard on the local news that there was someone driving the wrong down the highway. Knowing that her husband took that highway home she called him to warn him, to which he responded "It's not just one wrong way driver, there's hundreds of them!"
Anyways, if 90% of people are going the opposite way as you...
cpw_19 · 1 points · Posted at 20:06:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
On narrow pavements, where there is only room for one person (so one person has to step into the road) I always go with the rule of thumb that you should never force the person with their back to the oncoming traffic to step into the road - it should always be the one who can see the traffic who does that.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:08:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In North America, I would say try to go to the right, and left in the UK. Also, try to look at where you intend to go. People should react accordingly.
just look over the approaching strangers shoulder of the side you want to pass him. 99% of the time they will move so that you will be able to pass him without any trouble.
SSRainu · 1 points · Posted at 20:36:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Lock Eyes. Glance in the direction you are going to walk. Glance back to make sure the person understands. Walk to where you were going to walk.
If you wait for people to get off of a public transportation vehicle before getting on there will be more room for you in there, plus you won't be pushed by anybody. Such simple logic.
It's not against the Law in the UK, people just let people off first because it's the polite thing to do and they'll get tutted at by other passengers if they don't.
The British are a weirdly sensitive bunch and they're groomed from an early age to respect and fear the tuts of their peers, as an American you very likely wouldn't give a fuck or understand what the big deal was. Motherfucker tut-tutting at me, thinking I care, lol.
This. If I get tutted I spend the rest of the day playing back the incident in my head, trying to work out what I did wrong and then wallowing in shame and self pity.
The British are a weirdly sensitive bunch and they're groomed from an early age to respect and fear the tuts of their peers, as an American you very likely wouldn't give a fuck or understand what the big deal was.
Meanwhile, us British (and other commonwealth nations) can call eachother 'cunts' without insult whilst Americans get so offended by it.
Personally, I enjoy having a single syllable that makes women instantly lose their minds, it seems like I'm really not missing out on much by not calling everyone cunts and overuse makes a perfectly good insult less potent.
I'm american and got tutted at last time I was in London. I squeezed by an old lady that was walking really slow, trying to catch a tube train. 3/10 on the discomfort scale, wasn't that bad.
[deleted] · 5 points · Posted at 19:15:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm pretty sure the UK have 3 years of queue etiquette taught in school.
It's actually evolution driven by natural selection because people who break the sanctity of the queue often get tutted to death by an slightly miffed mob.
Yeah, this is the reason laws are necessary. If common sense and basic human decency were universally followed, then our planet wouldn't NEED governing or enforcement to these sort of things. This is why we need to make laws for the dumbest of things. For every ludicrous rule or law, there's somebody who was stupid enough for that rule to have needed to be made in the first place.
If you don't wait the bus driver can just not let you on the bus. There doesn't need to be jailtime or a fine or whatever for it. Not every annoying thing someone does needs a legal punishment. Why tie up the courts with that? And you know they'll be taking the bus to the hearing...
The law is a statement of public policy. It's not going to be a criminal offense. At worst you might get a ticket. Likely you'll get a warning. But having it on the books is a declaration that we as a society expect people to behave civilly. And if we have to, we'll punish you if you don't.
That's how commercials that are louder than the program got outlawed. A senator got annoyed at one over dinner, and her brother or whoever she was eating was like "dude, you're the senator, just make a law."
If only everybody would be reminded at every stop everywhere. No no, if only everybody could think of it themselves and there would be no need for any reminder...
zakkyb · 4 points · Posted at 18:29:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The tourists still fail to do it
gimrah · 6 points · Posted at 18:55:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not law. Used to be widely respected etiquette. Still is a bit but much less than even 10 years ago.
London commuters are always in a rush but succeed in letting people off the tube before boarding
Not always if you're at one of the very busy stations during rush hour, like King's Cross or Oxford Circus. The amount of times I've had to push past several people just to get off the train there is ridiculous.
Londoners are really strict with public positioning. They will bicker with you if you don't stand on the right of the staircase and if you cross the street while the traffic light is red.
I went to London in 2015, and 3 times the drivers honked angry at me for crossing the street at the wrong moment. This never happened with me here in Brazil.
If you're going to get in the way and make them slow down or possibly hit you then, yes, you will get honked/yelled at. If it's all clear or the traffic is stopped then you're good to go.
I actually admire your organization. London even has "look left" or "look right" painted on the road. Since I visited there, I always stand on the right of the staircase :)
Also the more elusive "Look both ways". London is one of the major tourist cities so you'd think it's mostly for them, but Londoners use them all the time too.
Good! Although, if you're in Brazil you drive on the right, so maybe you should stand on the left on the escalator? Dunno.
Strangely, people stand on the right of the escalator here. But unfortunately, not everyone does it and those who do it, only do it in the metro/subway/underground.
I don't think it's law per se, however get on the tube while I'm trying to get off and prepare for some serious tutting and vicious glances from all around.
There's actually a Byelaw on tfl services in London - 10 (2) - (2) No person shall enter through any train door until any person leaving by that door
has passed through it.
As a Londoner, I find it very annoying when people do not follow this rule and, they will know about it. Either I will comment, loud enough for them to hear, about how stupid and rude they are or, I will just act as if they had waited out of the way and walk right into them.
My mates all ended up scrapping with a group of lads because I completely forgot this when I was high and went and sat down on a train everyone was trying to get off. The other passengers didn't react too well apparently.
Didn't even realise what was going on until they all sat down opposite with looks of, "You owe us a fucking drink mate."
It would be nice if it one side of the tracks was exclusively for on, and the other off. Some time people-related problems are solved from removing choices ....
I usually just swear at the Indian or Chinese person (let's be honest here - it's always an Indian or Chinese person that doesn't understand common curtesy and does this) and say something like "can't you just wait a fucking second!?". I always feel like I've communicated a vital message to them as I stride off, feeing a mixture of anger and righteousness. Absolutely sucks balls when I mistakenly go the wrong way up the train platform and have to turn around and go back the way I came if I want to access the escalator. Even worse is when I pretend I am going that way for a reason and pretend to make a phonecall, still trying to maintain the pissed-off look. But then I just look like I'm trying to score drugs at a quiet part of the platform.
Had this happen last week. I was about to step out of the elevator and a woman just jumped in first. She apologized but I just wanted to say "well you wouldn't have to apologize had you just followed the simple rules" but social anxiety only let me get out a "well..." haha
This bugs me, but what really drives me nuts is people who cluster halfway down the bus aisle, and then others who passively cluster up in front of them as they board, compressing like sardines when there's oodles of space at the back.
It doesn't bite people! what are you trying to do? group-act a giant butt plug?
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:31:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I find it is always like that when young students get on. Even when there a half a dozen seats available at the back, they insist on clustering near the front so they can talk loudly with their mates.
It totally is. Along with people's refusal to step off to let people out if they're riding in the doorway. "I can't leave the train yet, this isn't my stop! What if I get left behind?"
To extend this. The train isn't leaving any faster anyway. With all the people dancing around and filtering through each other it's probably taking longer.
The train driver does not see you push on and think "that guy is now on, lets fucking roll" before peeling out of the station leaving everyone else behind, and other passengers spilling out the door to their deaths. That would be absurd, almost as absurd as some cunt pushing onto the train before letting people off.
We have signs in all public transport in Denmark saying this. Sometimes also a service announcement saying "Make room for passengers leaving the train", and the signs basically say "First out, then in".
They mostly do. In the train and metro you enter/exit at any door obviously, while the bus has entrance only up front, and exit in the middle and back. So in the bus it's not really a problem at all.
I was thinking the same thing. If only few people do this they get an advantage over the chumps who wait until everyone gets out! Doesn't get you a lot of friends though, but hey, you got your windows seat.
As a person living in a big city it's quite evident. It's inconceivable that people cannot follow the simple logic I mentioned.
And, what's wrong with people getting in before you? I understand the wish to sit down but can't help but imagine a world in which everybody waits and then gets in patiently.
We're talking about the same thing. The overburden shouldn't be the passengers' problem, it should be the municipality's. Passengers should not be forced to act that way.
In an alternate world where unicorns fly above rainbows.
This but in relation to elevators is incredibly fucking irritating!
Went to Ikea this weekend to return a bed I decided was too large for the room it was going in. get on the elevator to go up to returns and exchanges with a cart and 5 very long, and heavy boxes stacked on it. Doors open for me to get off, and standing there are 2 people blocking the elevator entrance standing side by side with their carts full of large heavy boxes. How did you think this was going to work? I was going to pass through you by some sort of supernatural means? move the fuck out of the way!
I live in NYC and it's a disaster. So we have two groups of people waiting on both sides of the door. You have to count on everyone doing the right thing and wait for the people to exit. But if one side start ramming themselves in before everyone's out, chances are everyone behind him will shove themselves in too. By the time everyone's out, the subway is full again. By being the nice citizen you just got shafted from entering the train along with the people behind you.
It sucks but the bad guys often win here. One guy ruins it for everyone. If everyone is orderly, then I would never not wait until everyone's out.
I live in a big city too, not as big as NYC but the situation you described is the same here. Now that's even more annoying. I sometimes tell people to wait for me to get off when I struggle to get off but I'm almost certain that they just see me as a disrespectful young person.
a49fsd · 1 points · Posted at 19:47:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Good luck getting on that F train being a nice guy in the morning!
chaun2 · 3 points · Posted at 18:13:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Serious question, is this an everywhere thing or just limited to the US? Because holy fuck, San Diego, New York, Chicago, LA, even fucking Kissimmee which really shouldn't count here, but still somehow has this issue. .....
I get so triggered when a bunch of people just crowd at the front of the bus, fuck, I can't get by without rubbing up against people just to get to the perfectly roomy middle/back of the bus.
In middle school I thought it was the stupidest lesson ever because we lived in the country where few buildings if any were multi level for a long time, but my 8th grade English teacher taught us elevator manners as part of the manners portion of her class.
Now I live in the city and people are crowded right around the door to get in like it's gonna leave before I get off.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:08:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oh my god this. People need to take a fucking step back from the door so i can get out of the fucking lift
ikerus0 · 2 points · Posted at 17:47:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Same with elevators.
If you are waiting for the elevator, when the doors open, just wait a moment before getting on to see if anyone needs to get off first.
Yeah, I've been to Taiwan a few times and the Taipei metro system is great and the people using it are very well behaved. The metro stations have lanes printed on the floor for people to wait in, which leaves plenty of space for people getting of the train to move to the station exits. The tracks have barriers with sliding doors that only open when the train has stopped and which perfectly align with the doors in the trains.
I don't know why this kind of system isn't implemented in more large cities.
While that's what a lot of people here in Chicago do, their idea of "letting people off first" is crowding around the bus/train door so the exit crowd has to push through anyways. Just step aside for five seconds and let them pass ffs.
This is common courtesy in Asia. I was in Hong Kong and they have people during peak tourism months to guide people off the subway first then let people in. It's great.
I've waited 12 years for the Toronto subway to do something similar. Still waiting.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:15:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I feel like there's more concern about not bringing shamev to yourself or your family or friends in many Asian cultures and conforming is encouraged. On the contrary, in the west there's an attitude of 'don't worry what others think', be yourself etc. This can lead to public displays of selfishness a lot more in the latter case. I'm not evaluating which one is better, but it helps explain why the situation for public order is more effective in many Asian countries
I was referring to the attitude of people. Eh, I guess it's another big city after all. Were you referring to people that guide? I didn't expect that in anywhere.
Oh! Haha TO being a big city does have a bit of influence in the behaviour but yes I was referring to the guides. Asia tends to invest a bit more in educating the public/enforcing various norms.
We the rest have so much to learn from Asians. Thank you for teaching me something :)
hai1337 · 2 points · Posted at 19:12:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
For trains, every time a train arrives we're reminded of that... Our announcements are like "The train to (destination) is arriving. Please let passengers exit first." Unless it's a terminus where empty trains arrive. We also have arrows that instruct people to wait at the two sides. Don't worry, because tourists and old people happen.
For buses, we have two doors, one for boarding and one for alighting. For some lines with two way section fares you need to use a smart card again when alighting to get a refund and on those lines sometimes drivers will let you alight at the front door, but people definitely don't board on the back door. Do american buses only have one door or something?
For minibuses, we usually let people off first, and usually equal amounts of people will be let in. As soon as that person boards, the door is closed while the minibus accelerates.
For elevators we usually do the same as trains.
For trams, the boarding and alighting doors are far apart so there isn't much of a problem, although the door-closing still feels a bit like minibuses.
I'm not living in the US. The comments suggest that it is a widespread issue.
hai1337 · 2 points · Posted at 17:11:12 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Hong Kong
Also, it's not as magical as it seems sometimes... e.g. Faulty trains, and for peak hours some people do rush in no matter what, and the section between train cars is almost always emptier than the rest.
It's sad to find out how widespread this problem is.
juvily · 2 points · Posted at 19:29:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Same with elevators. Every time I wait for an elevator, I always stand to the side so anyone already in can exit first. Then I can go inside without much hassle and more space.
But for some reason when I'm in an elevator and the doors open to show someone on the other side, there's a good chance they're right at the entryway. So now we have this awkward "excuse me, sorry" thing going. It's like they never expected the elevator to be used by people.
Apparently you've been using their private elevators. Your bad.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:36:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
everyone has this idea that the doors will close like 2 seconds after they open so they need to get on/off the train immediately. In reality this mentality just makes it take longer for everyone involved.
The logic turns out to be simpler as you think of it and the fact that most people can't follow it becomes more frustrating.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:36:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I've been fighting for this for over 20 odd years. Educating one (sometimes two) selfish twat at a time. By walking all over them if they try to board while I'm trying to alight. No exceptions. No apologies. No looking back. Just a blank stare ahead as I bump into them with my hips and guts behind it. Fuck you.
I do the exact same thing! Not sure whether they understand why I do that though. They may just be thinking they met a rude person who bumped into them and didn't say a thing afterwards.
Same for lining up (or queuing) to board a plane. Especially if they use a group system and you're in one of the last groups. GET OUT OF MY WAY, PEASANT!
To add to this if the train or bus or whatever it is you are on is packed and you are near the door, please step out for 2 seconds to let others trapped behind you out.
NMJD · 2 points · Posted at 19:51:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes! Yes yes yes. Also, if you are getting off the bus/train and there are people standing who are also trying to get off: let those people get off first. It will be easier for you and you will get off faster than if you stand up and try to push your way in front of them.
WME0WM · 2 points · Posted at 19:52:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's how people do it in Japan — there are even designated lines for where you should stand while waiting for people to get out
When my daughter and I are waiting for an elevator, or something similar, I make it a point to remind her to wait for anyone exiting to do so first. It's a good reminder for her and anyone else who might be waiting too.
I've only heard good things about Uruguay thus far. I'm from Turkey, a big country next to Middle East.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:56:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I have the best cranky bus driver story.
One time here in Airdrie Alberta a driver pulled up with a bus full of commuters from Calgary and this one guy was in the front of the line of onboarding passengers. He storms on the bus and almost knocks over the passengers that were getting off. The driver kicks him off the bus and makes him wait at the back of the line. The line all gets on, when it comes to his turn the driver just says "looks like we are full, next bus in 30", closes the door and takes off. It was amazing.
This is the most satisfying anecdote on this subject ever. You have our gratitude, cranky bus driver. Teaching common sense one passenger (or one bus) at a time.
Same thing with elevators. I've gotten to where I stand right in the middle while waiting for the door to open. Great when I shock somebody rushing to get in.
Yes! Also, if you're standing once you get on, move ALL the way to the back. I don't know how many times I've seen people stop midway down the aisle, while people are still trying to cram into the front of the bus. It's not that hard to understand!
When I was going on an airport coach a few months ago there was one guy with a huge guitar case who tried to get on the bus before any passengers got off, the bus driver yelled "WILL YA LET THEM OFF THE BUS FIRST FOR FUCKS SAKE" at him.
Ah, that must've been music to those passengers' ears.
Noxzaru · 2 points · Posted at 21:25:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I read that as "If you wait for people to get off ON a public transportation vehicle...." Reddit ruined me, though I suppose that logic would work also.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 23:13:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah that logic only works with people that follow rules. I waited like you said, and people had rushed in and packed the subway before i could get on. I stopped waiting after that.
Every time our bus stops, this is said on speakers. People on the back of the fucking bus will get up, and go alllll the way to the front of the bus, push through people getting on, to get off.
Oh wow. What else can be done to explain this to people? Is this what we call civilization? Is this the last point humanity has come to, really?
This leads me to an existential crisis.
(P.S.: I'm being overly dramatic for emphasis, if that doesn't translate)
T_PBn_J · 3 points · Posted at 17:36:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ive learned theres really no such thing as waiting to get on the subway in Boston alot of the time. After the last of the huddled mass of people finally leave room for you to walk on the train its too late. The drivers close the door at the last sign of mass movement and you and the polite few who waited to not get trampled get left behind.
Until the train doors close and it leaves without you, the offender slowly making his way to the stairs, still engrossed with his phone, completely unaware you're still glaring at him.
numbers & algebra are such a useful invention! Improvements in notation across the board in math are pretty underrated. Trying to understand even simple concepts from Ancient to Medieval texts and later where it's just words is soo much harder
You don't even need to go that far back. Look at a lot of Euler's works. He of course created a lot of the notation we use today, but something as simply expressed as Euler's Theorem, aφ(n\) ≡ 1 (mod n) was written in a series of words that does not nearly convey the information as easily as the aforementioned bit of notation. Congruency wasn't a concept until Gauss, his Euler's totient function was written simply as words and so on.
Right! I hope no one in this thread learned the commutativity of multiplication here. If so, my understanding of what 90% of people don't know just exploded my mind!
I have a maths test coming up on wednesday, and this is a really simple way to summarize all the complicated, long explanations in my book. Thank you so much.
I failed maths in high school, so to get into college now, they are testing me on it. Not just this, but you need to know the basics before you can continue with the terrible hyperboles and stuff.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 02:44:00 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I guess this is why they say college isn't for everyone...
I work in retail. We often have a promotion of say, 40% off something. Then you can get a coupon to give you an additional 10% off. That means 10% off the reduced price. I've only met about two people so far who understand that this does not represent 50% off the original price. I've gotten into heated arguments with customers about this. While not "basic" math, this is really low-level functional math that most kids will learn in elementary school. Why does the understanding of it escape many adults?
Edit: Okay, since I'm tired of explaining this in comments. When you sit down and explain to customers using human words that first we take the 40% off and THEN we take the 10% off that total, they will look at you and say, "YAY 50% OFF!!!" Happens every day. It's not misleading verbiage/advertising, it's straight up that people don't know how percentages work, even when you explain it to them in detail.
flat5 · 905 points · Posted at 17:06:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"Additional 10% off" is actually ambiguous, unless you specify off of what.
[deleted] · 329 points · Posted at 17:41:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Exactly. It's not like the wording is clear. People aren't wrong to be confused.
The original discount is on the original pricing. If you phrase it as "Get an additional 10% off!" - the most logical way of understanding it is that the additional discount is applied to the original pricing as well.
Almost everybody would understand that 10% of the discounted pricing is lower than 10% of the original price, but that's not what people are disputing. If I run an ad that says "Buy 1 beer, get the 2nd beer free!" and then I price you a beer for 1.5 the competitor's price... you're going to feel like you "didn't get the additional 10% off" like you were mislead to believe.
Jatrap · 17 points · Posted at 18:26:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My place of employment gives 25% off to employees. Recently thy had a sign up that was astonishingly misworded. I think it said "additional 35% discount". But what they meant was that your 25% is now 35%.
If I run an ad that says "Buy 1 beer, get the 2nd beer free!" and then I price you a beer for 1.5 the competitor's price... you're going to feel like you "didn't get the additional 10% off" like you were mislead to believe.
Uhhhh What?
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:56:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If I try to bamboozle you, you're in the right to be displeased and/or question it.
Marketing has become "How can I bamboozle my clients as most as possible, legally?"
In that situation, the customer isn't going to notice. Unless you're selling right next to the competitor, so they're not going to compare. They just think they're getting a whole second beer for nothing.
[deleted] · 8 points · Posted at 18:09:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Precisely. The intent is for the customer to think he's getting a deal, NOT for the customer to actually get one.
But there's a difference between the two situations. In your situation, the customer doesn't know they're not getting as good of a deal as they think they are (but they still are getting a better deal than the cost of two beers from their competitor). In the 10% off situation, the customer thinks they're getting a bad deal.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:03:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't think it's really necessary to be that granular about it, the general idea is that the customer is mislead to believe he's getting a deal he's not.
rillip · -1 points · Posted at 19:21:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It is ambiguous. But it's also dumb to make the assumption that it's going to go the way which has the greatest benefit to you vs. the way that's going to have the greatest benefit to the store. Honestly, you shouldn't assume either, you should ask someone at the store for clarification. But if you're going to make an assumption, assuming it means an additional 10% off the original price is the worse one to make.
Consider this as well: if you assume that it's off the original price then if you're wrong you've set yourself up for disappointment. If you assume that the 10 % additional comes off the total after other discounts are applied then if you're wrong you've set yourself up for a pleasant surprise.
Edit: look this is a thing people do in other areas too and it's an aggravating and annoying behavior. When something like this is ambiguous they always seem to assume whichever possible answer works most in their favor and then when they're wrong they get pissed off. If you do this it makes you look like an entitled asshole. I'm not saying it makes you an entitled asshole. But it makes you look that way to any third parties present. Stop and thinking about things sometimes. Remember, when you assume you make an ass of you and me.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:55:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You're implying customers should really think this through before going to the store, when we're talking about (in many cases) small purchases.
rillip · 1 points · Posted at 19:57:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not really. You just have to think this through once. Ever. In your entire life. And you're good.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:08:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What exactly? That anytime something can be interpreted differently, that I should just accept getting rammed in the ass?
No thanks.
rillip · 1 points · Posted at 20:25:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No that's not what's happening here at all? How is you making an assumption about an ambiguous statement someone else ramming you in the ass?
We need to start talking about the promotion as a "factor of 0.6" and the coupon as a "factor of 0.9", then your customers get a combined factor of 0.6 x 0.9 - no ambiguity.
But that's the point also. It's the same as "up to 50% off". It could be 5% off an item, it could be 0% off another, as long as one item in the store is 50% off then the sign is correct.
It's using hype to get people in the store by reading into it what they want to read. But hey, that's just what marketing is. You present a glossy version of the facts and hope people see what they want to see.
flat5 · 1 points · Posted at 07:05:16 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't think the word "additional" were on the coupon. So i don't think that's were the customers is going wrong.
But yeah if the word additional were stated on a coupon i would think its stacking with any previous price-reduction. And i would also somewhat assume that the product is already got a reduced price.
flawr · 2 points · Posted at 18:12:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That is where the distinction between percent and percentage point comes in handy - at least for the seemingly few who actually understand and use it.
funke42 · 3 points · Posted at 18:56:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Wouldn't it be more profitable for them to let you do that though?
Let's say you're buying 2 items which would normally both be 40 dollars. One of them is on sale for 10% off and you have a coupon for 25% off that you can apply to either item. If you applied it to the sale item it would cost you 67 dollars, but on the non-sale item it would cost you 66 dollars...?
Ah yes you're right. But I suppose that they want to sell as many items as possible to empty all the stock, not double-deduct the same item.
[deleted] · 284 points · Posted at 16:59:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you told me I could get an additional 10% off of something that's currently on sale at 40% off, I would probably assume it was 50% off total, too. If, instead, you told me I could get 10% off the currently marked price, I would assume the thing you want me to assume.
I agree. I don't think it's an issue of how the math works, but an issue of misunderstanding what is meant by "an additional X% off". I put the blame on the store, not the consumer.
gyroda · 10 points · Posted at 18:58:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's literally in the word "additional. It's not a multiplier.
10% off marked price is different though. If it's marked at 50% off and you have 50% off marked price it's clear that it's 25%, not free.
If you leave it unqualified, an "additional 10% off" implies its being added to whatever the original "percent off" is - essentially, that its qualified itself.
I think thats a good default assumption, and anyone who uses the language without qualifying it probably intended for it it to come across that way even if they wanted the math to work the other way.
gyroda · 2 points · Posted at 20:07:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Additional in contrast to multiplicative.
Rylth · 6 points · Posted at 18:00:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No one would understand what they meant if they said "a multiplicative % off."
maybe thats being confused in translation to German, but if someone writes "additional" I definitely assume that the percentages are added up instead of multiplied!
It's that the wording makes clear it's off the reduced price of the item
What is the wording?
Leveros · -4 points · Posted at 16:58:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There's nothing misleading about that. They're giving the exact discount they say they are. It's just math. 40% off and then an additional 10% does not equal 50%.
It says "additional 10% off" I would assume it's 50%. If I brought a coupon that was 10% for a 40% item then I would figure it's "10% off whatever the end price is"
"Additional 10%" seems to imply 10% + 40% = 50%, not 10% * 40% = 44%
I mean, I wouldn't be upset if I asked and they clarified. I would just go to "additional" meaning "additive" percentage reduction. If they said 10% off final sale that would also help.
Leveros · 2 points · Posted at 17:31:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The problem here is that they're two separate coupons. Maybe it's just me, but I've never seen two percentage coupons where the percentages add together to get pulled off your subtotal.
[deleted] · 6 points · Posted at 17:58:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think you're flipflopping. Why would someone have a single (unrelated to anything else) coupon that says "Get an additional 10% off"?
Ah okay. I think we're talking about two different things. I'm talking about deals (usually holiday deals) with stuff like
"40% off Black Friday, make a savings card account and get an additional 10% off!"
and I think you're talking about
"40% off item" "10% off item" coupons.
In your case you're totally correct. It's two seperate discounts, so they'll multiply and people really should understand that. The ones I'm talking about they usually advertise the whole thing as one big deal.
edit: I also think I misread a comment. I read /u/thrumpledenoozitty comment as the coupon being part of the deal, while I think he may have meant for it to be a separate coupon that happens to coincide with the sale date.
Leveros · 2 points · Posted at 17:38:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Then it that case yes I agree it'd be misleading. I work retail and we have a continuous 15% off coupon that anyone can get, and then another 20% coupon signup. People have the hardest time understanding that they amount to 32% off because they're two different coupons.
[deleted] · 4 points · Posted at 17:59:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If it happens so often, have you considered that it's not advertised clearly?
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:46:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Even so, I think discounts should always apply on the original pricing.
If you don't specify that it's multiplicative instead of additive why should I assume one or the other?
Leveros · -1 points · Posted at 17:10:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Because they're two separate discounts. I don't think I've ever seen two percentage discounts stack additively. Why would any company use a coupon system that gives you a bigger discount?
Why would any company use a coupon system that gives you a bigger discount?
That's like saying why would any company give a 20% off coupon instead of a 10% one.
Leveros · -1 points · Posted at 17:29:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Coupon system was the wrong word choice, more like coupon interaction. It's like having a buy one get one free where you pay only for the cheaper item. Financially, it doesn't make sense to give them the best possible outcome using the coupons that they already have. That ~4% difference isn't going to be a deal breaker for 99% of customers.
That ~4% difference isn't going to be a deal breaker for 99% of customers.
But it might be at the margin, and a company could easily decide that that was the profit maximising way of having a sale. A BOGOF offer where the most expensive item was free would be very easily gamed, so it's not really comparable.
The example business was already offering a 40% sale and 10% off coupons which can be combined, so it's not absurd to think they might decide to offer 50% off in combination, rather than 46%. They might sell enough more at 50% off than 46% off for it to be worth it working that way.
Leveros · 1 points · Posted at 17:44:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But that 10% is coming off of something that was already reduced by 40%. I guess as someone who works retail I might be too close to this, I just assumed that people would think of all coupons in this fashion.
I just assumed that people would think of all coupons in this fashion.
To be fair, I would also assume that it worked to give a 46% discount (in fact, I would assume that you couldn't combine discounts - you usually can't in my experience). I just think that it isn't impossible to imagine a company deciding it that interpreting it additively was in their best interests (nor totally unreasonable of customers to interpret it that way and think it was reasonable).
Why would any company use a coupon system that gives you a bigger discount?
By that logic, why would any company use a coupon system that gives you any discount at all?
Additive percentage points really isn't all that far fetched of a concept. If they're willing to discount an item by 50%, why wouldn't they be willing to discount by 40%, then bump it to 50% with a coupon? It's all about what's going to move more sales in that particular situation.
Leveros · 0 points · Posted at 17:25:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Because a lot of people refuse to buy something unless they see they're getting it for a discount. I'll concede that it may be taking advantage of people who are less intelligent to have the coupons function the way they do, but I don't think it's misleading, especially when it's explained to people using the discounts.
[deleted] · 5 points · Posted at 18:02:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's not an intelligence thing. People are being told they get 50% off through easy 40+10 wording, but then discover they were mislead due to fine-printed jambalaya. It happens all the time. I was shopping for backpacks and some said 60L+10L carrying capacity, but the truth is that all backpacks have that "+10L" because it was referring to stuff you can just carry hanging out of it.
Companies know its misleading, but 40+10 gets people through the door, and the law lets them do it... so why would they stop?
It's not that it's misleading, it's that how they could be additive isn't somehow unreasonable. The wording as it is on most coupons is simply ambiguous.
The idea being pushed by a lot of people that people are "stupid" for not magically assuming that they're multiplicative is simply nonsense. It could easily go either way the vast majority of the time.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:22:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Why would any company use a coupon system ?
Leveros · 2 points · Posted at 17:26:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There is a very prominent group of consumers that will buy a shirt that is on sale from an original price of $20 down to $15, but wouldn't buy that exact same shirt if it wasn't on sale and priced at $14. Many people have to feel like they're getting a deal, even if they're not.
This is something that I find hilarious. It is something that and old coworker of mine showed me to work. He used to buy items from customers and resell them. It was always a tussle. While the customers never wanted to pay full price, they always wanted to receive the full amount that they were asking for. So he teaches me the idea of "everyone just wants five dollars". He would low-ball people's price (sometimes borderline insultingly low) and the haggle would begin. My coworker would get to a number that he felt was top worth and argue for a bit. After a few minutes he would say something like "I'll tell you what. How about if I go up another $5?". And this would seal the deal. The people never realized that the extra five dollars they got still had them selling the item for a lot less than it was worth. But they felt like they won the price war.
"everyone just wants five dollars" became the foundation of my selling techniques and the inspiration for this username.
I know that's true mathematically, but if I were your customer, I would still need to ask which way you were doing the math, because the wording could go either way. "An additional 10%" sure does sound an awful lot like you should add it to the existing discount, even if multiplying is an equally valid interpretation.
No, I'm talking about, when it's explained to them. First we take off the 40% then the 10%. And they'll say, "Oh, so 50% off?" and I'll say no, its actually going to be 46% off the original price. Then confusion, then the calculator comes out and people get irate because they can't comprehend that 10% off a reduced price is not the same as 10% off a full price.
They think you meant percentage points because of ambiguity, and after they've started arguing the toss they (ironically) don't want to risk looking like an idiot.
What people are referring to are percentage points.
40% and 10% are 46% off
40% and 10% points are 50%
.
Edit: I was originally referring to an increase.
However I got that wrong as well (40% and 10% increase result in 1.4*1.1=1.54 )
[deleted] · 4 points · Posted at 17:04:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
40% and an additional 10% , is actually 46% off the original price.
10 x 60% left = 6% of original
812many · 2 points · Posted at 17:58:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I've asked this question about coupons to people working the register and it's like a 5 minute conversation which includes examples to find out whether the extra 10% is off the original price of the already 40% off price. Drives me nuts that many people working don't know this, they just click buttons.
if you don't use it, you lose it. That, and maybe they never really learned it solidly enough when they were in grade school. I can't remember most of my math and science personally. Why? Because when I was taught it it was just another unit to be crammed, with at the time, no usable and relatable applications.
The other one that people seem to not understand is when you're talking about losing/gaining sales.
If i have $1,000,000 worth of sales and I lose 20% at the end of the year, next year I have to gain 25% just to break even. I've had employees IN THE SALES FIELD ask me why they didn't get a growth commission check for exactly the above scenario.
"additional 10% off" definitely means they should be getting 50% off the original price. That's the wording used. Additional 10% off. Meaning you "add" 10% to the initial % you got off, which would mean you get 50%. That's a language issue, not a math issue, and it's a pretty clear language issue that leaves you on the wrong side of it.
It sounds like the problem here is that your company is intentionally misleading consumers and setting you up as the fall guy when they are called out on it.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:07:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
An additional 10% off means that the discount is being added. In other words 40% + 10% = 50%. So the customers are correct. Your store is just being deliberately misleading in order to get people in the store.
Now if the coupon said 10% off currently marked price, then you would have a case. For example :
Widget A = $100
Sales sticker says 40% off goods on this shelf (ie range of goods). Coupon says additional 10% off, so Widget A is now 50% off therefore only $50.
Example 2:
Widget B is normally $100, price sticker is replaced with a sales sticker saying Widget B is now only $60 (ie 40% off). Because the price marked is $60 the coupon reduces it by 10% (ie $6).
So it really depends on whether the coupon says additional discount on marked price, or whether the sale is "all red stickered items discounted by 40%" in which case the price marked is the original price, so the total discount would be 50%.
In most countries with consumer protection law, this type of misleading advertising would be illegal. Which is why it would normally say "not to be used in conjunction with any other offer"
Did the promotion make that clear? I can see people making that mistake if it just stated that they can use a coupon along with the sale. Not so much an inability to do basic math, than a misunderstanding of the promotion.
Well, I feel like I'm explaining this in all the comments, but this is after it's explained to them that the 10% comes off after all other discounts. They still believe the total percentage discount adds up to 50%. It doesn't, and sometimes that means we have to go over receipts with calculators to make them fucking understand how math works. Even then they don't.
And only 2 people understood? You must live in a shitty area. In all my life, I can't say I've ever seen anyone badmouth a cashier. Most people around here are kind, and willing to lend a hand. Even most of the assholes I've seen are just assholes to other customers, rather than staff. That's just drunk idiots in bars, though.
I live in Toronto and have done customer service for many years in many cities all over North America. It's not a "shitty area" it's just people. That's how people are. Have you ever worked in the service industry? If not, it's not surprising you think it's a rare occurrence to deal with shitty customers on a regular basis, because you don't deal with hundreds of people a day in a service context. Just like how white people think there isn't any racism. You're just not exposed to it the way we are. Most of our customers will never see the other customers who berate us, insult us, argue with us, and so on, they're just not exposed to it during the 5 minutes they wait in line.
I live near Toronto. I've worked in plenty of customer service jobs. I know just how shitty people/customers can be. I've seen people attempt to argue. I've seen plenty get upset. I've never seen it devolve into yelling, swearing, or insults. Not saying it doesn't happen. Just that it I've never seen it go beyond a disgruntled annoyance. Also, the ratio of shitty people tends to increase when you're in a big city.
That does not necessarily mean 10% off the reduced price as you worded it, as it is unclear whether the "additional 10% off" applies to the original price or the reduced price.
I mean it doesn't matter, as you said, I was agreeing with you. However we are not talking about the order of the multiplication, that was never the issue.
OK, yeah I see how that comment isn't the issue. It was more just me trying to point out that the reason this works is because even if it's '30% off' it's not -30%, it's more like a multiplier, which is why -30% and -10% don't make -40%.
Nah, I know. I work in retail. You wouldn't believe the stupidity I'm confronted with on the daily. The worst part is that stupidity seems to correlate with righteous indignation. The more outrageous the request or argument, the louder and more insistent they are about it. Holy christ. I hate my job.
Crimsai · 1 points · Posted at 18:03:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, but this seems like a shitty practice to trick people into thinking they're getting 50% off, so I can understand why people would be confused and annoyed.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:03:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oh god I know. In another comment I related how a customer was getting 60% off an item that had been reduced 50% already. And she couldn't understand how that could be true. Then my co-worker joked with her that we should be giving her money.
Yep. Barnes & Noble confused the crap out of people. I told them "If it says 30% off and an additional 10% for members, either think of it as 35% off or do the math on 30% off, then 10% off the remainder."
The one I learned from my mom that I still fail at sometimes is when something is 30% off, you can multiply the price by 7 to get an idea of the new price.
Most adults are just overgrown children. Age doesn't mean shit if you're not improving yourself as you get older.
kenriko · 1 points · Posted at 18:43:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Heh.. not when you find stores who can't math on slickdeals.
I just got a 5% off promo that stacked with a 10% off promo on something that was already 30% off. $150 item became $85.. too bad they did not make the mistake to stack all the promos from the base price.
Even the employees don't understand, and they are quite familiar with the way the discount is applied. They just don't understand why the total is different when you apply a 40% and THEN a 10%, from when you just apply a 50% from the get-go.
ythl · 1 points · Posted at 18:57:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Say I have two coupons: $5 off and 50% off. You save more money if you apply 50% off first, and then $5 off second.
Sorry I disagree with you. If you have 2 coupons for X and Y percentage off price Z, it makes sense that you get the double discount. So if X is 25% off and Y is 15% off, you should get a total of 40% off the original price, since the coupons individually work on the full price as well. The only reason it doesn't work that way is because retailers would lose too much money if they applied common logic. That's why they made rules for their own benefit, when it comes to discount. The reason nobody understands it like you said, is because they have common sense. The two people that didn't complain were just happy with their discounts in general, too stupid or lazy to do the math, or too used to the system (sheep) to complain.
Here's a simple example of logic: Let's say you need $10,000 to buy a car. Your parents decide to give you half! That's 50%. Your partner decides to surprise you with 50% as well and says: "Your parents paid half? That's awesome, I'll pay 50% too!". Now with your logic you only need another $2500! But in reality, 50% + 50% = 100% paid. When people are talking about percentages paid, they always mention the percentage of the full original amount. So you would say that your partner paid 25%, not 50% of the remainder of 50%.
Personally I don't blame the retailers for how they want to apply discounts, but please don't make people feel stupid with "elementary school math". That makes me want to go buy my stuff somewhere else.
See, I totally get where you're coming from and I agree! That is the difference between expectation and reality. Yes it sucks but, it's not quite the situation I am talking about.
When the problem arises is when people don't understand, even after being explained that the 10% comes off AFTER all other discounts, that it still doesn't add up to 50%. They don't get why 10% after a discount and 10% from the original price is not the same amount, and that's the issue.
Well yea, if you follow the rules, the total discount just isn't 50%. If they don't get that, then they should go back to elementary school ;-)
MrXian · 1 points · Posted at 20:00:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Something cost 100 bucks. I get a coupon for 10% off. It is not unreasonable to say that it is worth 10 bucks. It is again not unreasonable for people to assume that that value remains constant.
Geta-Ve · 1 points · Posted at 20:04:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you've only met two people that get it, then there is a problem with the verbiage not the people.
In a semi-related tangent, I was looking at my ground black pepper shaker that I just bought the other day and it said "400% more" and then in really small text under that "than 1.5 oz".
It was a 6oz container.
Like, really? You really needed to put "400% more" in big bold letters just to try to act like you're giving someone more of something but really you're just doing math.
I had to explain to a guy once that at age whatever his life insurance reduces by 10% of the original amount each year for x amount of years until it stopped. Just for an easy example that meant a $100,000.00 policy will be 90,000, then 80,000, then 70,000 etc.
He thought it meant 90,000, then 81,000, then 72,900, and so on. He then went on to tell me I was bad at math. Bitch I took 2 semesters of calculus, percentages are not difficult for me. The policy was an odd amount so he was doing fine math (or as "fine at math" you have to be to find 10% of a number and subtracting that from itself), but not understanding a much easier concept.
Think that's bad? I read an article a few years ago about how high oil prices were affecting sales of SUV's. One dealership they interviewed had tried to shift inventory by discounting stock by 50%. Despite a lot of advertising there was almost no impact on sales.
Then they tried buy-one-get-one-free. Queues round the block.
Haha, we have something on promo for buy one, get one 50% off. I had a lady return two items she bought each at 40% off and repurchase them at the new promo (buy one get one 50% off). Because I wouldn't do a price adjust. Because I told her she got the better deal. But in her mind, 50% is better than 40% so...
chobo4 · 1 points · Posted at 21:59:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Why?
"When will I ever need to know how to [insert math here] once I graduate?"
Many ppl complain about learning math and give up once they're not forced to do homework daily anymore. These ppl don't connect the dots and see that math and logical thinking are present in our day-to-day lives.
That is definitely not something taught in elementary school, but yes, adults should understand it.
I work for a math teaching/tutoring business and that topic of discounts and taxes get done usually by middle school students or some high school students who are behind. Even then, the idea of a discount on a discount is actually the hardest question we give on that topic, and only once.
I had a friends years ago who worked for a clothing store that gave employees 50% off whatever they bought. She bought two items at exactly the same price and couldn't calculate how much she had to pay. She was 17 at the time and otherwise functional...
See, that seems to me like not a lack of intelligence but probably a lack of education. We don't teach students how to problem-solve. That kind of thing would be intuitive to most but not to everyone. I once took a Stanford course in mathematical thinking and teaches you how to break out of the patterns of thinking we're all taught in school wrt problem-solving.
Yeah, our maths education focused far too much on complicated stuff (trig, quadratic equations etc) and not enough on basic stuff like calculating taxes/tips/percentages that are actually useful irl.
I used to work in retail. We had staff signs up about how with our 15% staff discount and the standard 25% off for INSERT PROMOTIONAL ITEM HERE we'd get 40% off
I always corrected the signs (36.25% as discount applied on the final price) and explained it to the manager that put the signs up. Still happened every time our discount went up. (We got 10% most of the year, 15% at Christmas Easter and summer school holidays)
Yeah, we still have employees who think this as well, as our employee discount works similarly. We get a percentage off the promo price. People always subtract it from the full price then get mad when it doesn't work out as well as they'd hoped.
I'm pretty good at maths and I've never seen the 40% then 10% usage here in the UK.
It's either additive (50%) or one coupon per item, or 10% off the marked price (which may be already discounted).
I've never seen the stacked coupons version here. Then again prices have to be shown after tax always, where in the US I get the idea people don't know exactly what things are going to cost until they been through the checkouts.
Some places do either or in terms of discount percentage application but it's always best to assume that the percentage will be multiplicative.
The reason why it's not lumped is because there may be multiple discount sources that do not have the same origin. With this, the stores have to figure out how to tackle the discount where profit is concerned.
Simple example. A product in the store doesn't sell. The decision maker decides they just want it gone and gives a 40% discount on it. Later, through coupon, or promotion, this item is also eligible for an additional 10% off. The item being 40% off has already had the price changed and anything indicating 40% off is just showing that the item is no longer at the original price. The new price is already set and the new discount (the 10%) is now applied to that price.
It's either additive (50%) or one coupon per item, or 10% off the marked price (which may be already discounted).
I don't know whether people are dumb, act dumb, or think they are being slick, but this word is overlooked religiously.
Yes, I agree with all that. It;s the idea of giving in both a 40% and a 10% coupon (when multiple coupons are allowed) and not getting 50% off. That's what would be weird here.
10% off prices that are already marked down 40% would be fine..
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:48:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's so concerning when an adult can't understand the differences between additive and multiplicative and where they're most commonly applied...
That's so specific that it's almost concerning that you find it concerning.
It's not specific as my concern doesn't apply and a specific situation. There are times when it does one well to be able to discern between the two. Times where only one or the other is necessary.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 17:56:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You said "additive/multiplicative... AND where they're most commonly applied".
Ryengu · 13 points · Posted at 16:17:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Commutative multiplication
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:34:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Programming gives you a whole new perspective on that. Relying on Mul(x,y)==Mul(y,x) and switching the arguments comes off as "clever" coding that annoys people.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:39:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think the confusion tends from a 10% increase followed by a 10% decrease doesn't end up at the original amount, even though you'll arrive at the same amount despite which is applied first.
100 x 1.1 x .9 = 110 x .9 = 99
100 x .9 x 1.1 = 90 x 1.1 = 99
It should be as simple as pointing out it's the same as .9*.1 and .1*.9, which we know to be equal because multiplication is commutative. We can skip the term "commutative" depending on the audience, and just say "the same both ways" and everyone knows two "normal numbers" (integers) are the same multiplied either way, just point out it's the same for decimals.
But no, it's not that simple.
Worse source: Was an assistant in the comp sci lab during college. I can't imagine how these people handled Turing machines later in their curriculum when they couldn't handle multiplication as freshman, but they probably didn't make it that far. God help us if they're writing any sort of critical software these days.
I once visited a shop where they had a 75% off table. So I picked up an item with an original price of $20. It rang up at $10 (50% off). I explained that it was on the 75% off table, and had clearly been marked with a 75% off sticker. The manager told the cashier to give me another 25% off. The cashier then took the 25% off of the $10, so now the price was $7.50. I said, "No, it should be $5. It was originally $20 and is now 75% off, so that should be $5." The cashier and manager both argued with me since, you know, "the computer couldn't be wrong." I tried to explain why their number was wrong, and I even appealed to the one other person on line to help me explain. In the end, I got the item for $5, but it was clearly because they were agitated and wanted me to go away and not because they recognized their mistake.
fj333 · 2 points · Posted at 18:55:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Multiplication is commutative. More news at 11.
quine3 · 2 points · Posted at 19:31:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Can you remind me how to do math with numbers? I can only do it in letters now.
delapso · 1 points · Posted at 19:27:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I can add two numbers in my head, without pencil and paper or calculator, and people think I'm a wizard. And I'm talking 75+26. Not complicated. My peer reviews make me sound like a TI.
Got into a fight once in college with a coworker. We had your typical minimum wage, variable hour job and never knew exactly what our pay would be. So, He had added up all the withholding in his paycheck and calculated it as 23%. Every pay he would do a quick Hrs X Wage, then Multiply by .23 and subtract from the total. I asked him why he just didn't multiply by .77 and be done quicker. He could not see that taking 23% off the top meant he was left with 77% take home.
However, if a number increases X%, and then decreases X% of the new number, it will not be back at it's original number (with a few exceptions.)
NvizoN · 1 points · Posted at 19:41:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I saw this on reddit a while back and it helps so much doing percentages. Like, I can't figure out 46% of 50 immediately, but I can tell you immediately how much 50% of 46 is.
AP246 · 1 points · Posted at 19:46:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
One time I travelled to the states and stopped at a store to buy a copy of Pokemon Black. I was talking to the woman at the counter about price differences between the US and Canada. She did not understand why I was multiplying the price of the game by 1.08 to calculate what I had to pay in total, after I explained the math 3 times.
Her logic: "But why do you multiply it by 1.08? Tax is only 8%, so multiply it by 0.08 and then add that to the listed price!"
After that she tried to convert the price from USD to the equivalent CAD by multiplying it by the rate you'd use to convert from CAD to USD.
Not to be confused with 90% off and then an extra $10 off or $10 off and then 90% off. Those can vary the price of an item depending on the order the deals were made. This is more for coupons though
Or that if something is 50% off and then 20% off of that price that it isn't 70% off it's 60% off. I've seen a lot of stores make this mistake in advertising (might be intentional)
Anaract · 1 points · Posted at 02:38:54 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
A lot of people are shockingly bad at percentages and fractions. Like, they could easily do 10*0.75 in their head, but "three quarters of ten" or "25% off if of ten" just completely throws them.
I don't know at what point you just forget everything you learned in school, but I hope it never happens to me.
In a similar vein: A lot of people believing something doesn't make it right.
I get really sick of seeing news headlines based on some survey about what people think instead of actual facts. Like "50% of Americans believe Trump committed an obstruction of justice" or "40% of Americans don't believe in global warming". Whether or not Trump did that and whether or not the earth is warming up are objective facts. They will be true (or false) no matter how many people believe them.
(Thanks to people for providing better examples of what I was trying to say - the original example wasn't that great.)
[deleted] · 23 points · Posted at 18:34:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
[deleted] · 10 points · Posted at 19:36:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Agreed, as someone who leans left but hates the vocal left I get frustrated listening to NPR. Was listening to a segment on White Nationalism and then one on MS13. They played the White Nationalists as horrible people (they are) and the MS13 as victims of immigration laws (still horrible people). Both groups are shit people but they used MS13 to push a narrative.
Hey have you heard about the transgender immigrant afghanistan vet who grew up in a dying coal town under adopted parents who were in internment camps during WWII?
She's got a new book about how hard it was to grow up as a transgender immigrant in a dying coal town with immigrant parents.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:39:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
NPR perfectly, although I do enjoy the channel!
wosh · 2 points · Posted at 20:31:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Facts tend to have a liberal bias
[deleted] · -34 points · Posted at 18:44:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
We often throw stones assuming that the opposition is on the other side of the glass. It's only when the stone hits the wall that we realize those were mirrors.
Hillary Clinton had proposed a "No fly zone" in certain areas around Syria. It was one part of a significantly more complex foreign policy. Definitely not as straightforward as you presented it as. She absolutely did not want a war with Russia.
Yeah, most right leaning individuals I know aren't racist at all, however they do align with the other criteria he established (although the race thing is a pretty big inaccuracy - not sure where all these large groups of intolerant people are in everyday life)
So ignorant. Why don't you talk to conservatives or right-leaning people and see what they have to say about things instead of just listening to randy news channel 12 and believing what they say about 30% of the country.
[deleted] · 10 points · Posted at 19:06:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Wow, really? I wasn't happy that DJT got elected, but I swear that every time I turned on NPR for a month or so after the election, it was some pretty unhinged stuff about how we were all doomed or having a support group for people who thought their lives were over because of the election results.
Yeah, it does suck. I'm hoping it gets shot down. Given N.Korea's proximity to S.Korea and Japan and China and others, I don't think the USA dropping a nuke on Pyongyang would really help neutralize the threat. They certainly wouldn't nuke the DMZ. No one wants to invade or occupy.
Oh I totally agree with you. I just like poking fun at people when they assert things as fact that are really opinions, even if they are well founded opinions.
It leans left so hard, I don't love trump or anything, but the way everybody is so over the top angry about him is tiresome to the point of creating a counter culture
Organizations like PBS and NPR also rely on donations to fund their operation, so they certainly cater their programming (and political slant) to appeal to those who might donate. I prefer them to the CNNs and Fox News's of the world, but they definitely target their journalism to left-leaning viewers/listeners out of self-interest.
I don't watch the news at all anymore. Instead, if I'm curious of something I hear about i research it instead. More likely to find the real facts that way rather than just watching some guy on TV spout other people's opinions at you.
[deleted] · 13 points · Posted at 18:34:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Most people think the news is a right like free speech or bearing arms. it's not. They couldnt give a flying fuck about a responsibility to inform the public or patriotism or ethics. Whatever the cheapest content they can put on air that will attract enough viewers to sell add space is what we get.
if there is a popular movement that happens to be racist, or oppressive to any sex or class or lifestyle... If a billion people chose puppy-hunting as a hobby and they happened to watch Fox News, well, guess what would happen.
Yeah, I've come to the point where I'm getting news from multiple independent sources, and then filtering out what seems to be opinion, as opposed to reported fact.
I find that local news, like Krem2 for my area, tend to be much more factual and less opinion based. Also I may be completely wrong on this but I feel like BBC is more reliable for news in the US than actual US news sources since what I read from them tends to stay more moderate and focused on the facts while fox or CNN or MSNBC will skew something to the left or right
The BBC is great at reporting truthfully on what they want you to hear. But they are literally state run media and they aren't going to report things that harm the interests of the UK.
I agree, I don't trust the BBC a whole lot more than CNN, which I consider to be schlock in disguise.
To clarify, I mean more BBC television. I listen to BBC news headlines, which are quick reports on what's happening in the world. I typically trust this more than the opinion reports you find with 24 hour news networks.
There really should be a defined distinction between actual news and what I call "action news". There's nothing wrong with wanting to be entertained, but you shouldn't be able to use that as a reference point when debating someone who is actually informed.
[deleted] · 23 points · Posted at 17:35:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I believe that since news stations become echochambers, people take implications from statistcis. Say the report on minority groups in the UK earning less than the average white citizen. Many would jump to the conclusion that the report is implying that minorities are being discriminated against, while nothing of the sort is being said.
nzalog · 1 points · Posted at 18:14:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Let's check what twitter says about this.
Humdngr · 1 points · Posted at 18:21:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Everyone in this chain is echoing the same opinion though. News is anything that happens. Different things are news to different people. Even celebrity gossip is still news when half the world cares. You don't have to like it or agree with other people wanting to hear it. You aren't the only person who matters.
Everything is "news" but not everything is "important news"
"let's take a look at what twitter says about this" isn't important. It's news, and maybe somebody wants to hear it, but it shouldn't be important enough to take up a slot on the nightly news. If someone wants to see what Twitter has to say, they can go to Twitter.
I don't advocate for silencing these things, just not parading useless shit around just because it affirms your narrative.
Yup. I would love for a billionaire to create a real news channel where all they do is report actual news, no worry about sponsors or ratings or spin. Their anchor(s) would simply relay the most important news factually without their or anybody else's opinions on the story.
This is going to get me another 100 or so downvotes, but I feel I need to say it.
This is mostly a Leftist thing. Most conservatives think liberals are wrong about their beliefs. Liberals believe conservatives are evil. It's not about left vs. right thinking so much as it is moral supremacy vs. accuracy with reality.
Its actually a clickbaity headline: his original sentence was increased in jail thanks to him setting fire to stuff, and now he can only be released if he has been deemed safe to be released. This has not happened so far.
Sad story (mental health and all) but the headline for the post was designed to drag in karma. Perhaps "prisoner still in jail 12 years later has he's still a danger to the public" is too truthful for /r/worldnews
[deleted] · 4 points · Posted at 17:50:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
yeah. sad story, but not news.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 18:29:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But it is a way for a news outlet to address a real issue with a flashy headline to appease the masses. The story in question causes/promotes discussion of problems in the British justice system.
pigi5 · 2 points · Posted at 18:52:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not only that, it's internal British news, so why is it in /r/worldnews at all?
Its actually a clickbaity headline: his original sentence was increased in jail thanks to him setting fire to stuff, and now he can only be released if he has been deemed safe to be released. This has not happened so far.
Sad story (mental health and all) but the headline for the post was designed to drag in karma. Perhaps "prisoner still in jail 12 years later has he's still a danger to the public" is too truthful for /r/worldnews
[deleted] · 35 points · Posted at 17:42:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
reddit is an anti-American anti-Trump propaganda site and there are no positive stories about the president on reddit. People just want to hate and America is tearing each other apart. [gets popcorn] It's so much fun to watch from up here in Canada. We just laugh at all y'all all day long. Do you really all hate each other that much?
[deleted] · 21 points · Posted at 17:43:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
im also canadian and it's just annoying. i miss being able to go on reddit without politics being involved everywhere
Filters are a god-sent, but at a certain point filtering something everytime i go on /r/all gets pretty annoying, there is sooooo much political bullshit on reddit right now it's actually unbelievable.
On mobile I believe certain clients can filter specific words. That's even better than filtering subs for me. Many subs aren't 100% political but still are to some degree, and I'm not interested in those particular posts.
[deleted] · -13 points · Posted at 18:02:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I found the best way of dealing with (general) news is just to structurally ignore it. I agree with CGPGrey on this one that it's good entertainment, if you're into that, but it's not quality "information about the world".
Fun fact. Despite major news sources all over the planet covering the virginia alt right march, and the man driving his car into a protestor, /r/worldnews had nothing on it. I posted about it 3 times and it kept getting deleted.
EDIT well it seems that i've awoken Bannon's downvote brigade. People (or bots?) are downvoting my testimony of what happened without even attempting to argue against it. This is why a fucking cunt like Trump got in folks.
pigi5 · 9 points · Posted at 18:53:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Because it's internal US news and /r/worldnews is for international news
Yet there are plenty of other US centric articles on there right now. One of the top ones is about Tillerson and Mattis. But apparently the only US ones to get absolutely deleted are those criticising the far right.
pigi5 · 8 points · Posted at 19:21:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Wut, if anything it's the opposite. They wait to delete most internal US news posts criticizing Trump and anyone on the right until they have been on the front page for a while.
Funny. The advantage of being on a rest day is i've been Ive been on it all day and havent seen a single anti trump post last more than 30 minutes. Yet when I tried to add my own posts about the events they kept getting deleted within minutes, and without the usual notification. Just gone.
Well, that's objective information. Whether or not Trump is fit to be president is debatable, and an article arguing one way or another would be like an editorial. You may think that it's not newsworthy, but the fact that 60% of Americans believe Trump to be unfit as president is a fact (assuming it's properly backed up by evidence). An article reporting that fact can also go into detail about the reasons people feel that way.
Yup. The opinion itself may or may not be important, but the consensus is.
Tywin Lannister: [snickers] He's a Lannister! Maybe the lowest of the Lannisters, but he's one of us. And everyday that he remains a prisoner, the less our name commands respect.
Jaime Lannister: So the lion does concern himself with the opinion...
Tywin Lannister: [interrupts Jaime impatiently] No, that's not an opinion, it's a fact! If another house can seize one of our own and hold him captive with impunity, we are no longer a house to be feared.
I see what you're saying but I want to clarify: 60% of validated polled people, not 60% of Americans. Data extrapolation in political polls infuriates me. Yes, yes, statistically you technically can do that kind of extrapolation but you still need to scatter your selection group, and most of the time they're only polling the people who are walking by on the street.
usually these polls are randomized phone calls. They can be off, and they have the issue of polling the type of people who answer polls, but this data gathering has been refined for decades, it's pretty accurate. I swear the whole Trump debacle has people not trusting polls, but the polls were right!! It's people who can't read polls who messed up.
I see your point, and actually some people have commented with a better example of what I was thinking of - headlines like "60% of Americans think Trump committed obstruction of justice". That too is a fact, but the much, much more important fact would be whether or not he actually did commit an obstruction of justice.
It'd be objective information if it was done in a scientific way. I'm guessing those numbers are from online polls or something, which is going to skew the numbers, especially since those kind of polls would be voluntary. That covers one subset of a certain demographic of the population, but says nothing about the rest of the country.
Conveniently, there's never an explanation of who they surveyed to get that percentage. For all we know, they stopped at a local Walmart and asked 100 people.
E: Okay, they are scientific, they're just really biased. I know that I've never received a request to do a poll like these. Nor has anyone that I know of. How are we to assume that the sample they gather represents the general population with enough accuracy that we can extrapolate their results to the whole of the country? Polls like these have inherent flaws that pull the results in different directions, and the only way to ensure that it's accurate is to survey most of the country and compare. I don't trust shiny percentages reported in the news.
Just, calm yer tits, y'all. I don't word good.
[deleted] · 5 points · Posted at 19:08:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You could actually learn about statistics, you know. If you were actually curious.
Usually Gallop polls, which are incredibly fair considering the large and varied population they're gathering data on. Really the only big problem is the inherent bias of only surveying people who have the time to answer surveys. And I'm pretty sure they factor in the issue of the elderly and unemployed being more likely to do so.
Tsalnor · 1 points · Posted at 18:29:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You do realize these are actual polls conducted with scientific methodologies, right? You can look at how they got their data yourself if you wanted to, instead of just assuming that it's some random unscientific online poll.
E: Of course it's entirely possible you don't know anyone who's been polled. They don't have resources to poll a million people. A sample of a few thousand, if chosen randomly, is good enough to be representative of the entire population, no matter how big. Therefore, it's possible to have a perfectly unbiased sample including not a single person you have ever met ever before in your life. In fact, it's very likely. As for these biases you claim exist... There are statisticians spending their lives figuring out how biases can be reduced or eliminated. What biases do you propose exist that pollsters do not already take into consideration?
Probably not the best example. Public opinion can be very important regarding elected officials so in this case seeing a large number of people disapproving is important. That info may affect how people vote in the future or how politicians react to statements made by the president.
Knowing how many people believe in something can be useful.
[deleted] · 17 points · Posted at 17:38:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In the case of politics, the number of people who believe Trump is good or bad is important because it's a democracy and whether people support him or not is relevant to whether he should be President. In other matters tho, like global warming or whatever, the point stands.
Like 99% of scientists believing in climate change?
drysart · 6 points · Posted at 18:29:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Like "60% of Americans think Donald Trump is unfit to be president". I might agree with them, but why is that news (beyond him having low approval ratings)?
Because political power directly derives from public support. Trump's poll numbers being in the toilet means he doesn't have the political capital to accomplish anything; and that is newsworthy in political circles.
In a democracy, the amount of support a leader has is very relevant. One can argue about how often we need to get these updates--three times a day is definitely excessive--but that aside it is relevant how much support politicians have.
It annoys me to no end when people say "I refuse to believe _______"
What you believe doesn't matter.
Here is a relatively innocent example.
When Disney bought Star Wars they ditched the extended canon found in the books and the comics published by dark horse. Where I used to work a co-worker said "I refuse to believe the old books aren't canon" and would get mad when the movies don't take the continuity of those books into account. I told him that "what you believe doesn't matter. They told you what they're gonna do and they own the property."
Similarly. My pharmacist and I had a conversation recently that was about how little anyone tries in actual arguments or conversations. In our experience, many people just make statements and do nothing to back it up. It's relatively confounding that the entirety of civil discourse has boiled down to, " I don't like peanut butter and jelly sandwiches." "Why?" "IT'S JUST MY OPINION, OPINIONS ARE AS VALID AS YOURS."
That's great, don't like peanut butter and jelly sandwiches, doesn't change my day, I just wanted to know why. It's concerning due to the fact that the entirety of the world and technology in it was developed on the backs of questions. But no one feels the need to explain themselves. They lock themselves and their egos into a reverberating room of "that's my opinion" and it's gotten much worse the past few years, from the president saying what he said wasn't his own words and everyone just letting it go, to people who sincerely hold the opinion that the earth is flat and fall back on it being the opinion; and that's supposed to be as valid as a tested fact.
News articles and discussions have ceased to be about who thinks that way and why, and more about who thinks that way and what other people think about how the first person thinks.
tuur29 · 3 points · Posted at 18:39:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You might've picked a bad example there. As being fit to be president also entails representing a majority (or at least largest majority) of a people. There's more to being president, but that's a critical part (in theory anyways).
There are some videos and probably some studies too about how a lot of people will agree with the wrong choice if the rest of the group agrees the wrong choice is right. Usually they'll agree with the group by the 2nd or 3rd time, then continue to agree. I think they said it's a survival thing. Psychologically we want to be accepted by the group to better our chances of survival.
“The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum....”
It matters because it's a democracy. It's not the best example.
Masylv · 3 points · Posted at 17:42:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's important because the approval rating affects whether he'll be impeached and things like that. Since politics is basically a popularity contest, approval rating is a useful statistic.
but why is that news (beyond him having low approval ratings)? Can't we instead make arguments for why he is unfit for the presidency?
"Making arguments" is not "news" - it's considered opinion and should be on the editorial page.
More, you seem to miss that most countries at least pretend to be democracies (yes, technically the US is a republic, you know what I mean), and therefore are actually at least pretending to be responsive to what the populace wants.
If a country is really a representative democracy of some type or other, what the citizens think about public affairs is of key importance, which makes it important news.
I think your example is news because it is a staggering number for the individual elected to lead/represent the whole country.
There's a gap between disapproving of the president and completely thinking they are unfit for the position. Like a "how did we get here?" kind of thing.
wouldn't the fact that he is representing the people, and they feel he isn't doing the job well, be the reason? They can all have different reasoning, but at the end of the day, the president is representing them internationally and making decisions that effect all of them.
It's news because people believing that puts pressure on congress to begin impeachment, which they will only do when they can no longer afford not to, from a political standpoint.
It still important news because public opinion of the president has implications for the next set of elections. Managing and responding to public sentiment is an important part of politics, so I think it constitutes real news.
I think it is certainly important to understand the public perception of the President in a country that advertises itself as being the pinnacle of democracy.
Yeah, we do labor under the mistaken impression in this country that what the plebs think actually matters. If we wanted to field a more significant study, it'd be "this percentage of rich and powerful people think Donald Trump is unfit to be president."
Then again, that too would be virtually meaningless without the followup question of whether or not they care enough to actually exercise their power.
Ugh, this one so much especially after this last election. I can't remember who said it but somebody at the Republican convention said if they believe Obama is Muslim doesn't mean they are wrong, it is something that they and others just believe. Oh boy...
It's the idea of feelings over fact. I remember a few years ago Karl Rove talking with a reporter and saying American's feel a certain way. The reporter came back with basically "that's incorrect and here's the facts and the evidence" and he just replied with "but that's not how people feel and you can't tell me that my feelings are wrong"....honestly, this has become alot of the Republicans' platform. Feelings over fact. It's easy for Trump to say "many people say" to back up his claims bc it's nearly impossible to say, no one's said that ever. Bad direction for the country and the world imo, but it's difficult to argue against someone who values how they feel over how things are in reality.
Also, in a similar, similar vein, just cause i disagree with you, doesnt mean I'm AGAINST you.
Tsalnor · 1 points · Posted at 18:27:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Presidential approval ratings affect political agendas and elections. It determines how much political capital the president still has. They're not headlines because they want to try and prove that Trump is stupid or something dumb like that, they are just putting out actual polls that indicate Trump is losing popularity.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:29:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Because they gauge public opinion, other people like to know what's going on in the rest of the country and what people are thinking. It's interesting. It's the same reason you're here on Reddit reading strangers posting about stuff.
Ugh, news organizations dealing in opinions to try to stay relevant.
The Oregonian sometimes makes posts on Facebook that end in "What do you think?" in lieu of a researched, well-thought-out story. It makes me want to scream every fucking time.
Revverb · 1 points · Posted at 19:16:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
To be fair, an extremely high percentage of the population thinking the president is unfit for the job is in itself news. But you're right, there is an issue with what you're talking about. For example, giving equal time to both scientists and climate change deniers, as if there is actually a debate among experts in the field. It doesn't matter if 40% of Americans (or whatever) don't believe in climate change, that doesn't make both sides equally legitimate. Conspiracy theories and things that are provably incorrect (e.g. anti-vaxxer stuff) should not be given airtime, even if large numbers of people believe that shit.
Something I love telling people - " just because it's common or normal doesn't make it right." It's common to live your entire life in debt , doesn't make it right. It's common for samples to camp out in the passing lane, doesn't make it right.
Se7enLC · 1 points · Posted at 19:56:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When few agree with you: "You know, being popular isn't the same as being right!"
When most people agree with you: "See? Everyone agrees with me, so I must be right!"
peetar · 1 points · Posted at 18:10:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My "favorite" statistics are about how "X% of people surveyed think Donald Trump should be impeached. Like, who cares? That's not how impeachment works, it's not put to a popular vote
But it is, indirectly; the people vote for representatives and the representatives vote on impeachment.
A congressman who says "who cares?" about the will of his constituents won't last very long.
peetar · 0 points · Posted at 19:45:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But impeachment requires charges as a response to a particular offense. A congressman cannot impeach the president just because his constituents don't like him.
Being pro-impeachment is like being pro-jail for Justin Beiber.
Vox's Strikethrough series with Carlos Maza covers this and why cable news works for ratings and drama rather than substantive news, information, and unbiased reporting.
Newsworthiness is determined by many factors, and factors are not the same as facts. Something may be newsworthy because it affects many people, because it reflects a current topic or controversy, because it is a change from the previous norm, because it concerns people considered important...Presidential approval ratings are, traditionally, news. They're polled and reported especially in light of important events. That Trump's approval ratings are so low so early in his presidency, and that they continue to fall rapidly, is absolutely newsworthy.
People, in their zeal to blame the media for everything, forget that there are standards that good journalists abide by. Some media outlets do a better job of following those standards than others do, especially now that the news cycle is 24/7 and there are so many ways to communicate. Still, I've noticed many people tend to disparage news they consider unimportant, but they don't understand that the very notion of what is important is subjective - to both an individual and to a journalist. The best journalists can do is try to follow a consistent standard of newsworthiness.
Except asking voters how they feel about an elected official is relevant. It does matter what percentage of the population thinks he's unfit.
The problem is when the survey respondents have no bearing on the thing being discussed. "60% of voters think Trump committed obstruction of justice", unless those surveyed are legal scholars or congressional members this is entirely irrelevant.
Yeah, this is a much better example and more like what I was trying to think of. I edited my post to include it...thanks!
Jfreak7 · -1 points · Posted at 17:54:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ask a group of random people WHY they believe he is unfit and you won't get very compelling answers. I bet the most common answer is, "it's just obvious and so many people believe it (while pointing you to the study)".
This isn't about your specific example either, many different topics have have the same echo chamber of beliefs.
OOOOOOH WEEE THIS IS IT! THIS IS WHAT I LIKE TO SEE
NutDraw · 0 points · Posted at 17:22:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"If a million people do a stupid thing, it is still a stupid thing." Opus the Penguin
MjrK · 0 points · Posted at 17:56:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I agree with you. But also have to keep in mind that our political system is a popularity contest.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 18:09:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'd say it's news because it lets people know they're not the only ones with those thoughts and, actually, a lot of people have those thoughts. So don't give up, something may yet be able to be done about the problem.
brimds · 0 points · Posted at 18:34:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Are you unable to see the value in measuring and reporting public perceptions?
Plus, they don't even give you the source of that 60%. How many people did they poll? And from where? That's the frustrating part. So if they went to Chicago and asked 10 people, and six said he was unfit, that's 60%. How is that a fair representation of the country as a whole?
Tsalnor · 2 points · Posted at 18:34:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Reputable pollsters state their methodology and give as much data as possible to ensure that they are not manipulating the polls. You could be out there actually looking for the data instead of complaining that it's not being handed to you in the headlines.
994phij · 7 points · Posted at 17:22:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's not that people don't understand that. It's that they get louder when they're angry or passionate about something.
bizmah · 1 points · Posted at 22:15:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yah I do this all the time and then people think I'm really angry when I raise my voice. I just do it when I'm excited or frustrated, but not on purpose or to be an asshole. I am just a very loud person and I'm trying to fix that.
Also the habit of name calling in an argument especially when it's not justified.
I don't argue with people about pretty much anything most of the time. I don't feel it's worth the effort when neither of you are going to change each other's opinion. When I see an argument escalate into name calling though, it aggravates me. It lets me know you're arguing on emotions alone and not with any sort of research or fact checking factored in.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 17:09:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I see correct minority opinions all the time. Things that are just fact, it's not in dispute. But a loud majority may believe otherwise and the quieter minority just shrug and let it go.
90% of the people in your life equal volume with being correct?
Really? You must keep some really shit tier company.
I don't associate with anyone that is that stupid.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 17:41:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I mean, in practice this is not always true. Often the loudest side is remembered as the "right" side.
Let's say an event happens. There are two "versions" of how events played out.
Lets sat v1 is mostly factual. And v2 is more-or-less BS. If the vast majority of the media reports the v2 version, and eventually the history books report v2 as well, guess what?
GazLord · 1 points · Posted at 19:57:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's just proving the guy's point. Too many people take loudness as proof somebody is right.
For a while people were making a new trump hate sub every week to keep their shit on top of the front page, so people couldnt filter them out. Those subs were a problem.
Everyone bitched about /r/t_d showing up on the front page, but the 50 antitrump subs trying to spam the front page somehow arent a problem.
GazLord · 0 points · Posted at 20:00:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sorry to say this buddy but in general Trumpateers and Trump himself are the loud obnoxious ones who are factually in the wrong.
You see, I don't like being part of cults so I avoid them. You should try the same with your 78 different (same) cult subs. Unsubscribe, filter out, be better.
GazLord · 1 points · Posted at 23:02:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
i don't go to any of those subs and most of them don't ban even the smallest dissenting opinion instantly like T_D does.
most of them don't ban even the smallest dissenting opinion instantly like T_D does.
Those who don't ban will simply mass downvote any dissenting opinion to oblivion instead. It's literally the same cult-like result except T_D isn't hypocrite about it, it's in their sidebar.
GazLord · 1 points · Posted at 00:56:52 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
T_D is hypocritical as they constantly say things like "dissenting is important" and "we don't ban other's opinions like those filthy leftists"
Also downvoting is disagreeing but it isn't the same as deleting and banning as people can still see the opinion.
Nope. But it sure is fun to do it just to hear someone say THIS DOESN'T MAKE YOU RIGHT CAUYSE YOU ALL LOUD. No, but it does piss you off enough to end this conversation.
Jerenym · 1 points · Posted at 19:43:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's one of many reasons why when I get frustrated with my second graders, I get quieter. When I'm whispering, they know I'm pissed.
Ag0r · 1 points · Posted at 19:53:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In the military, this is actually the way it works. If you are the same rank as the person you're arguing with about the best way to do something, the louder person will get their way (be right). It can be pretty annoying.
The 2012 warren farrell ontario protest is my favorite example of retarded feminists yelling loudly. Want to attend a seminar about suicide? Ahh, you must be a racist sexist rape apolagist pig who hates women because a few years ago I saw a fake quote attributed to the speaker.
"Have you actually read the book youre saying is hateful?"
And you can throw it in their face. While they are blinded, you win the argument because your opponent is too busy getting sand out of their eyes to make their point.
As you are in the process of the increasing of the dirt you're throwing that dirt was actually the ground you were standing on in 7h3 53nc3 7h47 y0ur 4r6um3n7 15 c0ll4951n6. Taht mgiht rmenid you of a ctreain poliiatin. if you can read that last part, that means your a genius (IQ more than 130!!) because you're brain can evolve to fit changing stimuli (that's the plural). If you're a really genius like me (IQ 176.38909), you don't even notice when it shifts, and sometimes 5w17ch between types of writing midsentence without noticing.
For the dumbass fuckmonkeys that comprise most of my Facebook friends on this site (sigh, intelligence is a burden) what this means is that once you start insulting someone, you're loosing the argument. For example, sometimes I'll write one of my thoughtful posts, and some asshole in the comments will be like, "fuck off, you pretentious goof" that's when they have already lost to my more intellectual points YEAH, ASSHOLE, WHO'S THE GOOF, THE GUY CONTRIBUTING TO PUBLIC DISCOURSE OR THE TROLL COMMENTER ALWAYS POSTING NICE THINGS ABOUT HIS PRETTY GIRLFRIEND. YOU CAN HAVE YOUR SHINY FACADE, BUT DON'T EVER QUESTION THE INTEGRITY OF THIS FACEBOOK PAGE. YOU ASSHOLES HAVE NO IDEA HOW MUCH EFFORT 1 9U7 1N70 5T1MUL471NG YUOR MIDNS!.
Anyway, this whole post is an original quote by me, you can use it, but be sure to credit me using my first, middle, and last names. If you don't know my middle name, maybe you could get to know your friends better before using their fucking quotes. Maybe invite me to do something other than sit behind the god damned computer all day and educate you ungrateful urchins. Invite me to go have fun, like all you assholes do all day, and bring up middle names in the conversation. It would be educational for the both of us.
Fuck you.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:03:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is why I love proverbs. I like to think that while pronouns stand in place of specific people (Jeff decided he didn't like eggs). 'He' stands in as shorthand for 'Jeff'. In the same way, proverbs stand for specific (and often more wordy and complicated) actions. I doubt that's the etymology, but I always thought it was cool.
Ohoooho damn, that's some choice wordsmithing. I'm totally going to steal it later on. Is this a quote from someplace, or is it a Cliffmoore02 original?
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 20:28:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
it was one of my Dad's gems. All yours for the low low price of one upvote.
luzzy91 · -2 points · Posted at 18:34:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Cuz you're literally scooping up the ground? But....but, it falls back down! You're just moving ground. Unless you throw it in their mouth I 'spose. Hmmmm. Quite the brain teaser, thanks man
throwing = throwing away from you, which implies losing possession of
luzzy91 · 1 points · Posted at 21:29:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Lol you guys are a fan of that metaphor, I am not. I've never lost anything I've thrown. Ive moved it... Especially here where it's implying that you're throwing dirt at a person, i.e an insult. Where exactly does that dirt go? Three feet in front of you = not losing. Either way, it was a purposely shitty joke, and I understand what he wants it to mean.
Xyllar · 27 points · Posted at 17:54:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The second either party starts throwing insults, everyone has lost the argument and it's probably better to just walk away.
[deleted] · 7 points · Posted at 18:52:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Except in any public setting where you're fighting to convince people other than the person you're directly arguing against. And people respond well to a convincing but logically void argument for why so and so is an idiot so you shouldn't listen to him.
I see so many people sperging out about "AD HOMINEM FALLACY" while linking to that damn website. They don't realize that ad hominem isn't a formal fallacy and that it only applies when you replace your valid argument with personal attacks, not when you call them an idiot while providing a real argument. But by the time they pull that phrase out, it's over anyway.
[deleted] · 13 points · Posted at 18:50:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ironically, most people that complain about the ad hominem fallacy use their complaint about it as a replacement for an argument.
Although an insult beside a valid point doesn't invalidate the point it does somewhat invalidate the person. As with all logical fallacies (fallacys?) It is not a trap card to be played on your opponent in an argument but a set of tools to help notice your own flaws in debate. If you or someone else is using insults in a debate it is a good sign they are probably arguing the person and not the point. When they do that they usually don't respond well the counter arguments well and take attacks on their stance as a personal attack. When either side gets defensive neither side "wins" it simply stops discussion and wastes everyone's time. Unless their goal is to troll then they are winning.
The problem with this line of thinking is that everyone thinks they've "beaten" the other person's argument, even when they're wrong. A lot of people fail to account for new information into their worldview.
The comments here are coming from the idea that rational points and facts are the key to winning an argument -- that's not always the case. People aren't robots or Vulcans, and all those logical fallacies work. If they didn't, people wouldn't use them.
You're going to lose arguments if you don't know how those fallacies work and how to use them well. Making the other person look like a fool and winning people over with clever, funny insults works better in advancing your agenda than a dry, rational argument by itself.
There's a reason the stuff like The Daily Show and FOX are better at shifting opinions than base factual reporting.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:54:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's more like dropping a deuce on a steak and expecting the person to still eat it.
Not true, if middle school taught me anything, its that ridicule is the best way to make somebody reconsider their entire life. You might think its different between adults but in most cases it's not really.
burf · 3 points · Posted at 18:02:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Man, I've had so many people on the Internet immediately lose arguments to me. ithurtssobad
If we're having a discussion about something, and we clearly have differing viewpoints, I'll still talk to the other person about it until we're out of time. But as soon as they switch to personal attacks, I'm out.
a) You've won the argument and they have nothing left.
b) You aren't arguing in good faith, you're arguing out of willful ignorance, or they've otherwise realized there's absolutely nothing to gain from the exchange beyond personal satisfaction
c) There's been a serious miscommunication leading them to believe b is true
or finally, d) They were never "arguing" in good faith themselves, or just outright never saw it as an argument, this is just an opportunity for them to mock you or insult you either to appeal to an audience or for personal satisfaction.
Yep. D probably describes the majority of "arguments" I see online and its why I tend to avoid reddit arguments unless the other people seems willing to have a civilized discussion.
The whole thing is a loss when it becomes an argument instead of a discussion or debate. It also seems many can't distinguish the difference between a debate and an argument.
I've heard something similar, that whenever you start to yell at someone, you've lost the argument. As soon as you get aggressive like that, people stop listening to the aggressor and focus on what they will say in response. It's always the sign of a shitty manager when they confuse voice volume with leadership.
It depends. If the insult is your argument, you have lost. If it is wholly separate from the argument, and just thrown in for fun/flavor, you're (possibly) doing fine.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:45:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is a rule that I find useful with dating. If she's insulting me instead of discussing whatever the issue is I don't want a relationship with a person of that temperament.
goblett · 1 points · Posted at 18:52:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well, once you start insulting you've given up on persuading. However, some people go into the argument with no intention of being persuaded. If you've absolutely destroyed someone logically and they keep coming back with foolishness, some clever mocking doesn't mean you've lost the argument.
I mean I would think once it gets to insults the people already know they aren't getting anywhere anyways.
How many arguments do you win on the internet being nice? I can't think of any. In person, sure. On the internet? You aren't changing anyone's mind. You probably aren't even talking to a real person.
Keep in mind that the opposite is true: When you realize that you stand no chance of winning because of the other person, go ahead and insult them, it does no harm.
Or the moment you mention the cisheteropatriarchy.
Isord · 0 points · Posted at 18:23:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Eh. If I say "The Sky is blue" and someone else says "The Sky is polka dot and filled to the brim with rainbow clouds." and I follow up with "No it isn't, you blind monkey." I haven't lost the argument.
I think your statement holds true in most situations but sometimes there are clear and distinct truths, and calling someone an idiot for denying them doesn't suddenly change that fact.
You have lost the argument. You're not wrong, but in terms of being persuasive you've lost entirely. Not only to your opponent, but people watching on the sidelines.
Isord · 1 points · Posted at 19:22:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Most arguments are lost from the start if your definition of losing is not changing someone's mind.
Isord · 1 points · Posted at 19:27:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And to be fair to your own point if you are trying to actually change minds I would agree flinging insults isn't the way to do it. Sometimes it is just pointless to engage people in such a manner.
No it isn't. Debates are scored based on a criteria revolving around the argument you give, its clarity, presentation, etc. It's not even remotely realistic to score a debate based on changing minds.
Right, but look at what you're responding to. We're not talking about tricky dilemmas or some weird ethical conundrum. The overwhelming majority of people will not side with something ridiculous just because the person presenting the opposing view had poor tact. Most people aren't going to support nuking Canada just because the person arguing we shouldn't called the other person an idiot. If you think someone loses any argument over such things, you're possibly in the aforementioned category in my previous comment.
The overwhelming majority of people will not side with something ridiculous just because the person presenting the opposing view had poor tact
You're very wrong about that. You're making the mistake of assuming people are all hyper-rationalists; the majority aren't. A lot of people are swayed by attitude alone. It's why charismatic people are able to dupe people so easily.
You need to be hyperrational to not agree with "Let's nuke Canada" over someone using some insults? I seriously want you to respond to this stance. Show me some studies. Show me some evidence on how the majority of people will agree that we should execute people for being black or some other extreme claim because the person who said "we shouldn't do that" used an insult. You can't seriously buy your own bullshit, yea? It takes hyperrational thought to think "Even though that person was an ass, we shouldn't nuke Canada." Maybe you should try being only slightly rational, yea?
Do you always make up your own arguments? That makes you sound stupid to everyone around you. But you can't tell that you do, which makes sense that you aren't understanding this point.
You are literally too stupid to understand how stupid you are.
I didn't even start this. The person you originally responded to framed it in a nice way, they even rationally agreed that this is only applicable to certain arguments. But you're too mentally deficient to not be a sensational twat who likes to lecture others because they used some naughty words. From the get go, you had no point because the person you responded to was quite clear and concise, offering the fucking middle ground. Your brilliance clearly shone through.
You're so stupid that you just said someone has to be a "hyper-rationalist" in order to overcome an insult towards someone saying we should nuke Canada, lest they agree, frothing at the mouth over the travesty that is an insult to another human being, that we should nuke Canada.
You are, objectively, by basic empirical observation, the bottom of the barrel of being mentally functioning. It's amazing you're capable of even forming a response, as it's clear you're incapable of comprehending your own, deep and profound idiocy, let alone the words you're reading.
Notice how you had a visceral reaction to my insulting you? You just proved my point. You had zero interest in trying to understand my point, because I resorted to insulting you. You proved my point.
There is a chance you're still too stupid to grasp it.
Aww, how cute. It thinks it understands logic now.
I understand your point. It's wrong. People are influenced by such superficial things all the time, sure. If you left it at that, there wouldn't have been any contention, but clearly you're too developmentally delayed to have left it there. You brought it straight into absurdity by stating that most people will exhibit this behavior all the time, rejecting the OP's claim that it such influence doesn't happen for some subset of arguments.
A Christian won't become a Muslim because some other Christian insulted a Muslim. You're apparently too dense to not realize this.
nagol93 · 862 points · Posted at 17:30:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Similarly, insulting someone is not a good way to get them to do something.
Guy: "Hay, can you do <thing>?"
Me: "uuuummm, sure. Just let me finish this thing im working on"
Guy: "Come on man. Just do <thing> real quick. Dont be an asshat"
Unless you're trying to convince one of your buddies to do something. All you gotta say is "don't be a bitch" and you've successfully motivated the shit out of them.
Cybiu5 · 32 points · Posted at 19:05:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I find with social choices, that could potentially be awkward or embarrassing, if someone tells me what to do I will begin to go out of my way to not do it and spite them. Especially if they try to micromanage the action.
I sometimes give advice, I don't even care if they follow it but they tell me to mind my business. Then weeks later they in trouble for not following my advice.
How do you tell someone to do something if you not their boss?
Yeah I get that, I'm thinking of the awkward middle school crap that some adults continue to pull. Having their friend intervene and play the middleman and tell you what to do. Immediately lose interest in anything going on and I'm out.
This is the problem with a lot of Americans (on both sides of the political spectrum). Neither side enjoys the labels bestowed upon them, but somehow justifies the labels that they themselves bestow upon the "opposition." Both sides are guilty of this and both are wrong for doing so. I am not saying you are necessarily guilty of it and I believe you are pointing out the same thing that I am...I am just offering my 2 cents.
I didn't get my US citizenship until Summer '15 (green card holder until then). Before then, I never eyeballed politics. I was always just under the impression that because I couldn't vote, it didn't matter, and I couldn't complain.
After I got my citizenship, I started following ideas a lot more. I started familiarizing myself with what makes the left and right different (free information: I'm left).
When Donald Trump started to get more and more following, there was a lot of swell in what names his supporters got called. Trumpets was a common one. I know there were others but they're evading me now. Then John Oliver does his bit about Drumpf, so that's all over the place as well.
As someone who wasn't a fan of Trump in really any capacity, I stood behind the name calling pretty actively, though never actually participating myself. Just not really condemning.
But then I also learned that I ABHOR the terms snowflakes and libtards. They were just so... shallow. They don't carry any weight in a conversation. They exist so you can demean the other side.
It took me longer than I care to admit how hypocritical I was being by condoning the name calling from the left while condemning only the name calling from the right.
But once it clicked, it stuck. Discussions need to center around policy, not around names. There's no point in talking to someone who insists on speaking like that, be they right or left.
TL;DR: I stopped condoning name-calling when I realized it made me a hypocrite. Which took longer than it should have.
Unfortunately it has now led to violence. Groups like Antifa and "the alt-right" are straight up beating and, in some cases, killing one another.
We must remember that we are all Americans. We have the right to voice our opinions no matter who disagrees or how stupid they may be. We cannot resort to violence in any case. It's too late, however, as violence has broken out.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 19:29:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I dislike libtard and "cuck" for exactly the same reason--so at least I am consistent.
I do often use "snowflake" as it does accurately represent the participation trophy--I should be the executive VP despite being young, inexperienced, and not putting in my dues---segment of the millennial population that I commonly encounter.
Are you saying that kids gettting participation trophies directly causes/makes them prone to being entitled shits later in life?
Bear in mind that since pretty much all kids get participation trophies (by definition) but not all grow up to be arseholes so there's got to be something else in play, so even assuming millenials/genY whatever are more likely to be entitled shits, it's not the participation trophies.
I think you're showing that there are entitled shits in every generation.
You were on the right path with the first half of your comment, but then you went astray. I am a Donald supporter as I am assuming you are. Name calling amd inflammatory language is unacceptable, in my opinion, in all forms. Snowflake is no exception. I cannot tell you how to live your life, but it would do you (and everyone else) good to not resort to name calling; no matter the reason or justification behind it.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 01:09:18 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
The participation trophy concept is weird to me, too. I don't understand why someone would be rewarded for not putting forth effort. I believe that the time and work people invest should be rewarded proportionally.
I've mostly seen snowflake used to refer condescendingly to people who get up in arms, figuratively speaking, about stuff that other people do. An example I have in mind is the current military transgender situation going on. In this case, if the behaviors I've seen remained consistent, the ones defending transgender people would be called "snowflakes".
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 13:50:53 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
"SNOWFLAKE" refers to people who think they are socially and unique and the world revolives around them
[deleted] · 9 points · Posted at 19:22:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Uh, 49% of the voters is not the same as 49% of the population. It's actually only 20% of the population.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:30:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In an election the only population that matters are those that vote.
ceetc · 6 points · Posted at 20:00:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That doesn't sound like the population you were referring to above. You made a mistake. It happens.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 21:55:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So children, anyone under the age of 18, they don't matter? That being said, I was just giving a simple correction.
Well politicians will often screw over children's futures or subject them to higher stresses of mess up the education system simply because they don't vote. They do care about their parents votes though so it can't be blatant.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 22:16:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not in the context of what I said or the rejoinder to my post.
It's really remarkable. The outcome of the 2016 election was to reject that style of insulting rhetoric, but they insist on doubling down on it in 2017. At some point they'll have to eventually give it up.
[deleted] · 6 points · Posted at 19:02:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I know there are only 60 days left to make our case -- and don't get complacent, don't see the latest outrageous, offensive, inappropriate comment and think, well, he's done this time. We are living in a volatile political environment. You know, to just be grossly generalistic, you could put half of Trump's supporters into what I call the basket of deplorables.
Clinton's quote, made on September 8th, 2016.
Rough polling numbers for the top 3 candidates on September 8th.
Clinton: 42%
Trump: 39%
Johnson: 9%
If we take her statement of half literally we're looking at about 19-20% of all voters. If you're going to take her statement literally at least get your numbers right.
[deleted] · 6 points · Posted at 19:07:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Polls were shit.
No defense to say "oh she only insulted half of his supporters" when her speech writing folks should have known the comment would be perceived to apply to all.
kyew · 8 points · Posted at 19:13:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Maybe that's why she immediately went on the address the others
The racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic -- you name it. And unfortunately there are people like that. And he has lifted them up. He has given voice to their websites that used to only have 11,000 people -- now how 11 million. He tweets and retweets their offensive hateful mean-spirited rhetoric. Now, some of those folks -- they are irredeemable, but thankfully they are not America. But the other basket -- and I know this because I see friends from all over America here -- I see friends from Florida and Georgia and South Carolina and Texas -- as well as, you know, New York and California -- but that other basket of people are people who feel that the government has let them down, the economy has let them down, nobody cares about them, nobody worries about what happens to their lives and their futures, and they're just desperate for change. It doesn't really even matter where it comes from. They don't buy everything he says, but he seems to hold out some hope that their lives will be different. They won't wake up and see their jobs disappear, lose a kid to heroine, feel like they're in a dead-end. Those are people we have to understand and empathize with as well.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 19:17:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Maybe you also need to consider the propensity of her and the left to label anyone who disagrees with them and is guilty of "wrong-think" as an "-ist."
I mean, I'm left-leaning and I don't do that. Maybe you should've said "some people from the left".
Or maybe you just didn't do it because, in the grand scheme of things, if I didn't assume that you wanted to throw dirt at me, I would've assumed that I simply wasn't in the segment of the population that you were talking about in your comment?
[deleted] · 8 points · Posted at 19:27:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well, that is just based on my experience. I live in a city and am part of a profession where it is suicide to be "centrist" much less "conservative." The educated, professional, highly-intelligent people I work with simple cannot even fathom that one can hold conservative values and not be "hateful." You literally cannot have a stance on ANY significant position that is out-of-line with the current en vogue group think
Dislike the affordable care act = want people to die
Want strong immigrant control = hate brown people
Oppose affirmative action = hate black people
Want tax cuts = hate poor people
How can you have any sort of meaningful discussion or debate when that is the rejoinder?
And I used the word "left" NOT "liberal"--they are non synonymous.
The current "left" is a bunch of authoritarians parading as anti-fascists.
The thing is, the GOP dont make it easy to be convinced that they are not full of racist. But there polices often reflect that they are. The GOP leaders often court the votes of racist, look at Trump, he cant even come out and condemn white nationalist after a fucking murder. Jeff sessions out there increasing the war on drugs, but the war on drugs was made specifically to target minority groups and has shown for the last 40 years that it both severely does impacts minority with a huge swaths of African american people getting caught up in it (we are talking about a ridiculous fraction of blacks in a already ridiculous amount of imprisoned people)
Lets just go over your list here:
Dislike the affordable care act = want people to die
Maybe not want to people to die, but i fail to see how giving tax cuts to rich and healthcare industry's and gutting any help to poor people is going to not cause people to die. Maybe the GOP does not want people to die, but just dont care if they do, not much difference honestly.
Want strong immigrant control = hate brown people
If the GOP wanted to realy tackle immigration they would go after the business that keep hiring them, this dumb wall shit is just smoke and mirrors. It is much better to cause people to hate immigrants, which they have cultivated the last 8+ years.
Oppose affirmative action = hate black people
Well then they go around and say white people are discriminated from, they are literately trying to make discrimination A white people problem...So maybe you dont think you are racist, but when you try and turn the tables around like that, you are being a racist. White people in no way have a race discrimination problem and to believe or pretend otherwise only makes the problem worse and gives power to the white nationalist who now claim that they are being discriminated against (fucking ridiculous)
Want tax cuts = hate poor people
They want tax cuts for the 1% on the backs of poor people who need help, maybe they dont hate them, but not giving a fuck about this is about the same.
How can you have any sort of meaningful discussion or debate when that is the rejoinder
How can you have a debate with people who just simply disregard reality? The right is no longer dealing in facts.
The current "left" is a bunch of authoritarians parading as anti-fascists.
That is simply not true, again, how can you deal with people who are believing things that are just simply untrue?
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:28:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Point proven. In your view, I cannot be a rational, intelligent, and non-"hateful" person and hold the above policy views.
I never said any of that, but if i hear a proposal that sounds hateful i am going to call it hateful, if you got a counter argument of why it is not hateful then so be it, make it, but saying "No, i am not hateful by supporting hateful policy's" is not a great argument
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 21:52:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So we are left quibbling over the meaning of "hateful." I do not believe any of those policies are "hateful." They are rational policy choices aimed at increasing productivity, personal wealth, and the security of the country.
aimed at increasing productivity, personal wealth, and the security of the country.
Go ahead and show me how those policy's do any of those things.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:42:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Maybe not want to people to die, but i fail to see how giving tax cuts to rich and healthcare industry's and gutting any help to poor people is going to not cause people to die. Maybe the GOP does not want people to die, but just dont care if they do, not much difference honestly.
I am not defending "the GOP" which is as much in bed with big pharma; and the insurance industry as Obama was.
I do not view it as the role of government to provide for people. What they have done to healthcare is to make it overall much worse. Yes, more people are uninsured. But the tradeoff is we all have shitty insurance no one can afford.
It is possible to acknowledge the need for healthcare reform without supporting state-sponsored healthcare
A good start would be to enforce the anti-trust laws, break-up the state insurance monopolies and allow multiple smaller companies to compete on price--as well as removing the ridiculous "Cadillac tax" and prohibition on minimal coverage policies. Allow people to purchase they level of coverage they want.
They want tax cuts for the 1% on the backs of poor people who need help, maybe they dont hate them, but not giving a fuck about this is about the same.
I don't what my politicians to "care" about me. I want them to get out of my way
the 1% thing is nonsense. The way the AMT is hitting people a whole shit-ton of 2-wage earning "middle class" people are being looted. The existing tax system is a scheme by the rich to transfer wealth from the middle class upwards while claiming it is to help the poor.
Taxes are not "on the backs" of anyone except those who are paying for them. Your "hate" argument pre-supposes some people are entitled to other peoples' money--a proposition to which I do not hold.
How about reforming the tax code to make it simpler, lower the tax burden on everyone, and enact incentives for start-up businesses?
The "poor" pay such a low percentage of the overall income tax that ANY tax cut will disproportionately affect them because we have a progressive tax system.
So maybe you dont think you are racist, but when you try and turn the tables around like that, you are being a racist.
Racism is treating people different due to their race. I refuse to do so and abhor any attempts to do so. The notion that "black people can't be racist" is ridiculous propaganda newspeak.
The current "left" is a bunch of authoritarians parading as anti-fascists.
That is simply not true, again,
Have you been on a college campus? Do you watch the news? There is a concerted effort to shut-down dialogue and debate. Free speech is under attack from the left in the guise of preventing "offense" and "hate speech" (read: speech with which they disagree)
You have Google, Facebook, and Twitter deciding they are now the content-police and banning views against the current narrative.
Look what is happening in the UK, where you can get a police visit simply by posting statistics of crimes committed by "refugees."
I am using "fascist" in its original meaning as the fusion of corporate and political power--not the modern fascists = person with conservative views re-definition.
I am not defending "the GOP" which is as much in bed with big pharma; and the insurance industry as Obama was.
Well thats good, but it seemed like a defense with many of the same buzz words as the GOP. If it quacks like a duck and all that...
I do not view it as the role of government to provide for people. What they have done to healthcare is to make it overall much worse. Yes, more people are uninsured. But the tradeoff is we all have shitty insurance no one can afford.
Healthcare has been fucked up in this country for a very long time. Nobody wants to do the things that needs to be done to fix it, and that is to reign in insurance company's who are doing everything they can to fuck over the american people. The true enemy's are not the party's, but the health industry that is simply out of control. It is not Obama care that is fucking it up, it is the greedy ass healthcare industry.
It is possible to acknowledge the need for healthcare reform without supporting state-sponsored healthcare
Obamacare is not state sponsored, it is very much a right wing policy and that is the reason it is failing, it caters to much to the healthcare industry, this includes the mandate and all. Plus, the GOP simply refusing to expand medicare for no reason other then fuck Obama.
It is possible to acknowledge the need for healthcare reform without supporting state-sponsored healthcare
I am still waiting for some good ideas, and please dont say open up state borders, that wont work and is just once again catering to the industry.
A good start would be to enforce the anti-trust laws, break-up the state insurance monopolies and allow multiple smaller companies to compete on price--as well as removing the ridiculous "Cadillac tax" and prohibition on minimal coverage policies. Allow people to purchase they level of coverage they want.
Seems reasonable, but I am no economist, healthcare is not easy, but very few politicians are even trying.
I don't what my politicians to "care" about me. I want them to get out of my way
I dont even know what that means
the 1% thing is nonsense. The way the AMT is hitting people a whole shit-ton of 2-wage earning "middle class" people are being looted. The existing tax system is a scheme by the rich to transfer wealth from the middle class upwards while claiming it is to help the poor.
Yep we are on the same page, but the right just wants to make it worse. But i dont know what they are taking from the poor, you cant take much. Take away food stamps and give it to the middle class? Kick them off insurance so they go back to going to the ER? Here is a idea not to popular for the right, raise the fucking taxes on people who use loophole after loophole because they can afford a tax person to find them.
Taxes are not "on the backs" of anyone except those who are paying for them. Your "hate" argument pre-supposes some people are entitled to other peoples' money--a proposition to which I do not hold.
Taxes are a burden of society, you cannot have a government without taxes. Helping poor people benefits everyone and it hardly cost money, might be better to first cut the military complex first which takes a huge amount of money. Here is the rights reasoning:
1990's: cut welfare for the poor to lower debt;
2000's: Start two very expensive wars that last for decades
How about reforming the tax code to make it simpler, lower the tax burden on everyone, and enact incentives for start-up businesses?
If something like this is purposed in the current political environment it will be touted as helping the middle class but will end up hurting everyone but the top.
The "poor" pay such a low percentage of the overall income tax that ANY tax cut will disproportionately affect them because we have a progressive tax system.
We are going to split on the role of government here, so i wont go into this because i dont have time.
Racism is treating people different due to their race. I refuse to do so and abhor any attempts to do so. The notion that "black people can't be racist" is ridiculous propaganda newspeak.
Yes black people can be racist, but white people have 200 years of beneficial policy's helping the white culture while the reverse is true for minority's.
Have you been on a college campus? Do you watch the news? There is a concerted effort to shut-down dialogue and debate. Free speech is under attack from the left in the guise of preventing "offense" and "hate speech" (read: speech with which they disagree)
I seem to remember colleges shutting down protests that are often left protests, so maybe this is more of a generational thing then anything else...anyways, i would like a example of what you are referring to because as it stands now, your statement is rather open ended and impossible to discuss. Also, it is currently the right that is doing everything they can to discredit and shut down protests, not the left...I can give examples if you need them.
You have Google, Facebook, and Twitter deciding they are now the content-police and banning views against the current narrative.
Those are private company's, if you don't like what they are doing, plenty of places on the internet to go to...But there is alot of fake shit on the internet, so use some critical thinking.
Look what is happening in the UK, where you can get a police visit simply by posting statistics of crimes committed by "refugees."
Well the US is not the UK so this example is moot.
I am using "fascist" in its original meaning as the fusion of corporate and political power--not the modern fascists = person with conservative views re-definition.
Pretty sure that the current government and corporate power are practically one and the same, this is not a left right issue, this is a to much money in politics issue. What is clear with the GOP running the government is they pretty much want to let corporations do whatever they want and everyone else can go fuck themselves, at least that is what I am taking out of all the policy's the GOP are proposing.
I agree with you that we need to be able to have open discussion, but how can you then turn around and say the left is authoritarian and expect any meaningful discussion to follow that? Clearly your mind is already made up if you think someone like Bernie is authoritarian.
If only she spent this energy on working on her messaging and vision for America.
[deleted] · 6 points · Posted at 19:43:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Me: About half the cookies on this pan are burnt.
You, taking the pan and throwing it out the window: WELL I GUESS I'LL NEVER BE A BAKER AND I'LL JUST SIT ON THE INTERNET AND TELL EVERYBODY YOU CALLED MY COOKIES TRASH BECAUSE YOU THINK I'M TRASH.
Ya know? I kinda see your point, sadly.
[deleted] · -1 points · Posted at 19:51:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That does not even make sense. You are comparing a skill with political viewpoints.
Here is the thing. There were a LOT of people, myself included, you agreed some of Trump's agenda but weren't going to vote for him. That comment elicited a big FU that this segment of the population and drove people to the polls who otherwise would have stayed home.
[deleted] · 7 points · Posted at 20:03:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
To be clear, the order of events were as follows:
You weren't going to vote for Donald Trump.
Hillary Clinton said she would put half of his supporters -- i.e. people who were already going to vote for him -- into a basket of deplorables.
You heard her say this and got so mad that you decided to stand in solidarity with those deplorables and vote for him out of spite?
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 20:33:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If she wouldn't have said that all these conservative voters would have voted for the liberal candidate!
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 21:06:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I was on the fence, but likely going to not vote at all or write in a protest vote. However, I was considering Trump as well...I had not made up my mind and I liked what he was saying (although did not like him personally)
Hillary's comments must be understood in light of the general atmosphere expressed by media elites and on social media that "only a racist could support trump" or "only a bigot who hates brown people could support trump", etc. It was not an isolated occurrence.
Yes, my vote for Trump was as much a middle finger to the failed political establishment as it was a vote for him. I had been repeatedly betrayed by the GOP (so did not have a predisposition to vote that way this time), there was no way I was voting for the DNC party, so my vote was going to be a "protest" vote either way.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 22:23:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
To be fair, if we were to understand Clinton's words in the "general atmosphere" I'd have to weigh her words against quite a bit of hyperbole on all sides, including:
Sanders supporters dismissing black people as "low-information voters".
Marco Rubio implying that Donald Trump had a small penis
Conservatives calling for Hillary Clinton to be locked up
Snowflakes
Cucks
The list goes on.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 22:27:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No dispute that the election was a shit show on all ends.
People will never do anything you say, even if they do they do it half assed. So just say
"is this a bad time? You don't mind if you do this thing really quick if it's not too much to ask? I will really appreciate it"
"Yes I do mind I'm busy"
" Oh okay i will just ask your rival to do it and I'll put in a good word for him with the boss. "
"Wait!"
addpulp · 1 points · Posted at 20:54:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Coworker and his team would push work onto everyone else to make their work easier. I tried to make them do it themselves but if other people in my department enable it and don't tell them no, I look like a jerk rather than them realizing they are being unreasonable. One day I answer a question and walk away and he says "where do you think you're going, you aren't done here," and I said "no, you aren't done here, this is your job" and he started screaming so loud that everyone could hear outside of the soundproof editing room, calling me a "piece of shit" over and over.
Yeah, don't expect help, or even me to do my job for you well, in the future.
A week later he apologized and then said "so are you going to apologize?" I hadn't said anything wrong. Fuck self-involved coworkers.
Eh, or maybe it works. I was a creationist once, I didn't stop because people coddled me and said that's alright buster, leaving me to my ignorance, I stopped because of arguments and having to try to defend it, and realizing that it was fucking stupid like people say.
Similarly, I thought transgender meant transexual until people explained it to me because I was acting like a know-it-all dick saying chairs can't turn into giraffes, rather than thinking that maybe I misunderstood what people were even talking about.
Maybe there's tactful ways to go about it, but challenging somebody is infinitely more useful than leaving them to their stupidity. Maybe not on that day, but it can lead to results, and perhaps sometimes it's for the audience.
I wouldn't say it feels good. I find myself doing it when I unfairly blame the person I'm arguing with for all the other arguments I've had about the same topic, and just feel annoyed because I don't feel like I should have to explain things to someone. As if by magic they should know what I said to some other person weeks ago which clearly shows their fallacies.
I hope I'm getting better at this and I try to be patient and contemplate the real possibility that I'm the one who is way off base in the first place. It's really the seeming futility of it all that can get to you.
Anyway, just wanted to say that people don't always do this just because they like to feel superior. I do it out of frustration that I'm not able to explain it better and from thinking about what I perceive to be the very real hurtful consequences of their views. So pretty much even if I AM right, I'm still wrong on at least one level because I'm not even giving them a proper chance to understand my position.
This is a results of what I call philosophical thinking, which is how most people think.
I have 1 argument for something that is right, so any argument for the opposite must be wrong.
The problem:
Often both arguments are right and just point you to the fact that the solution is doing both to some degree.
The ratio at which you need to do both can be gained through mathematical thinking.
Think of 1 argument as: x = good
the other as: y = good
and the people who came up with both are arguing that they are right.
In reality both might be right and the solution is that x * y = better than good,
with some other constraint like x+2y = money that can be spend
People think they are right, and everyone else is wrong.
Often both people are right. The solution lies in the middle or sometimes the things are even unrelated.
For example both of the following statements are right:
When people earn more money, they can spend more money.
When companies pay higher wages, they can spend less money (on other stuff).
So you can increase the money spend, either by lowering wages or by increasing them. Both increase spendable amount of money, just for different factions, both can boost the economy in some way. If you do either one to the extreme though, you are hurting the economy (or rather lose to someone who strikes a better balance between the two)
I don't think most of us over there are trying to get anyone to change their minds anymore. Either you see what's in front of you or you don't. At this point, name calling is all we have left.
But then they just see you as a dick and don't change their mind. It's much better to give reasons and explanation of why something won't work, or to offer an alternative solution. Constructive criticism is much more valuable and useful than an unnecessary insult.
Who said not to give reasons and explanation? I'm not going to insult someone's intelligence until they belligerently ignore facts explained to them with care. It isn't like insults are the first line of attack. Its more of a thing to do when you truly think they are too stupid to be able to learn anything. It is giving up on them. How many times and ways do you have to explain something before it is acceptable to label them a lost cause?
You can reason without talking down to somone. Starting a conversation with "youre wrong and heres why" in an arrogent tone will get you no farther than just calling them an idiot.
I would insult you for having the reading comprehension of a young child, but I don't believe it would get you to comprehend what you're responding to any better.
Just an FYI, that term is not synonymous with "insult."
[deleted] · 296 points · Posted at 15:34:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I feel like this is what a lot of people believe. When everyone just can't wait to call someone else out, we just get an entire generation of people waiting to call each other out, about anything and everything.
I don't get what the point is of calling people out in echo chambers. So that they can feel good about themselves? Trying to shame someone and insult them on the internet rarely does anything good for anyone.
It's not putting someone down that makes them feel good. It's the congratulations and accolades they get from the people they like and respect that makes them feel good. It changes no minds and raises no meaningful debate, but you got in a zinger and got a pat on the back for it so you're feeling pretty good about it.
And some people do think that the other side consists entirely of idiots and one day they would have an epiphany and join the right (their) side and thank those brave enough to tell them off when they were stuck in the stupid ages.
[deleted] · 9 points · Posted at 17:41:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted] · 20 points · Posted at 17:51:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
rmphys · 2 points · Posted at 18:13:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I thought "virtue signaling" had an implication that the person disingenuously believes what they are saying, and are ONLY saying it to fit in, not because they believe it, but maybe not.
[deleted] · 6 points · Posted at 18:43:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not really. I mean, it can be, but in my experience, it's more of a "I take pride in how good of a person I am/my involvement in cause. I want other people to recognize me as a good person/to see my passion for cause(even if I don't consciously acknowledge it)". It's a specific kind of image conscious, holier-than-thou, in-your-face kinda lack of any sort of honest humilty in one's public behavior that is so repulsive even to people who agree with your cause or your definition of good person.
AAA1374 · -2 points · Posted at 17:32:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And then the generation after them starts to realize that's not constructive, but still gets shit from the previous generation. Of course, that's a broad generalization, but I genuinely feel like that's the situation right now.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 18:23:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'd say everyone alive is guilty of this, but I find it's more common in young folks than older.
gopms · 51 points · Posted at 16:14:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Which is fine but then you have to be willing to admit that you are doing it because you enjoy putting people down.
[deleted] · -20 points · Posted at 16:17:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah fine but they're idiots ok? And sometimes its just so frustrating speaking to idiots.
[deleted] · 21 points · Posted at 17:12:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Nope, I most assuredly know that I don't know everything.
But if I talk to a flat earther or a anti-vaxxer, it is incredibly frustrating the mental gymnastics they do that it will take a saint not to just call it out.
[deleted] · -14 points · Posted at 17:15:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I mean it is pretty rare.
[deleted] · 17 points · Posted at 17:19:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If this thread is any indication I don't know that you should be so sure.
[deleted] · -10 points · Posted at 17:21:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Nah I'm usually right about these things. I feel good.
[deleted] · 9 points · Posted at 17:45:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Is this the part where someone should tell you you're an idiot in order to put you down?
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 17:45:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Do it. It'll feel real fuckin good.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:21:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'd prefer not to stoop to your level.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:21:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And that right there is another answer to the question posed by this thread.
Nothing good ever comes from calling out people for being idiots. Quite the opposite - it emboldens their idiocy, and the long term repercussions of that greatly outweighs the fleeting satisfaction of calling them out.
See the state of politics in the US right now for a perfect example. Everybody just yells at everybody and calls each other an idiot.
Anybody who hasn't been called an idiot at least once in their lives has been sheltered.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:12:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So embrace it I say! Call out the idiots for who they are!
mxzf · 1 points · Posted at 19:40:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A long as you understand that it'll still never do anything except make them cling more firmly to their beliefs and decrease whatever respect for you they might have once had.
It feels less safe and good to wonder if they're right.
Yeah did that with flat-earthers. Took less than 5 minutes to arrive at the logical and backed by the entirety of science conclusion that, no, they're not right.
I guess it depends whether you argue to win, or because you want to change the other person's mind.
mxzf · 1 points · Posted at 19:43:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Define 'win'. If your victory condition in an argument is to get the last word in, the easiest way to 'win' is to lead off with "You're a fucking moron" and turn around and walk away. As long as you get out of earshot before they overcome their surprise at your idiotic behavior, you've "won".
If you're actually trying to make a positive impact in the world as a whole, there's no "winning" arguments in the first place, there's just mutual understanding as the goal.
I spent yesterday yelling insults at a rally of alt-right trump-loving nazi shitheads. I didn't expect to change their minds, it just felt good to get some aggression out.
derpyco · 4 points · Posted at 17:21:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Using reason to try and change the minds of the unreasonable has the same chance of success.
People are inherently resistant to changing their minds from the first information they decided was true to such an absurd degree that I can't imagine insulting someone will significantly affect that.
aham42 · 4 points · Posted at 19:47:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The entire progressive movement could stand to learn this.
...If you don't think conservatives (and moderates) do it too then you are part of the 90%. PEOPLE do it because it is natural to us, it feels good and it is easier than actually defending your reasoning, and no matter what you think of "those people" every side is still people. All groups bigger than a dozen people or so will have someone who does this.
Giving someone the unabridged facts rarely changes their minds anyways.
fredemu · 1 points · Posted at 20:00:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
People don't want facts, they want confirmation of what they already thought.
There are usually facts that go along with whatever viewpoint, as long as you select them carefully enough. Trust me when I say - both sides make the argument "the other side doesn't believe in facts..."
Might not change your mind. It definitely is an effective strategy for some people though, mostly those who are really insecure about their intelligence.
I won't say never. It takes a long time, and reason, but most of all KINDNESS (so on reddit it will basically never happen) but it certainly can happen. It just will never happen if the other person thinks that you precieve yourself as better than them
Durkano · 2 points · Posted at 18:36:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A single person will probably not, but seeing many people calmly arguing their point can be powerful. It has worked on me for a few things.
fredemu · 1 points · Posted at 20:01:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I usually debate on the internet not to change the mind of the person I'm talking to, but to change the mind of anyone else reading along quietly in the background.
I rarely, if ever, debate someone to change their mind. Shockingly, it's usually on Facebook that I have arguments. In those cases I can at least let others know that someone opposes the idea in the post. Other times I pick apart the logic of the post. Sometimes I just argue for the fun of it.
This kind of depends, I've said blatantly wrong things on here and had like 4-5 responses calling me a dumbass. If my comment had any sort of truth to it they would at least try to argue, but instead they went right to dumbass. And I looked over my comment and realized it was a pretty dumbass argument.
HugoTRB · 6 points · Posted at 17:41:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Problem is not everyone thinks like you. Many people will get defensive instead.
As a few other comments have said, people like that probably weren't going to change their minds if confronted with pure reason or kind persuasion, either. In some cases insults and derision are all that will reach a person.
muzakx · 6 points · Posted at 18:21:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You'd think that, but you would be wrong. In fact, /r/atheism has changed a lot of minds and reached people who were, by their own admission, thoroughly resistant to pure reason or kind persuasion.
A lot has changed there recently, but even back when it was mostly memes and being trolled constantly it was still changing minds.
Quleki · 2 points · Posted at 18:10:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Corollary to that is asking the question "why." If done properly and with honest intent, you gain understanding. If done improperly, you'll likely insult the the other person's intelligence.
Trying to convince someone with logic will not convince them most of the time either unless they're particularly open to what you're trying to convey, such as extracurricular math clubs and such.
If my best friend insults my choice, then you bet I'm going to take a step back and reevaluate.
If someone you trusts is vehemently against a choice you make, to the point of ridiculing you about it, then you should probably take a look at what you're doing. People that care about you won't mince words when they feel that you're about to royally mess up.
I think a better saying would be, "don't insult strangers if you want to change their mind."
Yes friends can take this route, aquantiances and strangers cannot. A friend can do it becasue they know that you are not against them personally, but when you insult a person, and they dont know you to that level then they get not only more defencive of themselves, but the idea as well
Dismissing good advice because you don't like how it's presented or hate the messenger is not a productive way to live.
You are right, but you can't change other people being that way (unless of course thats what your disagreement is over) but you can change how you do things
It's so weird seeing this happen on reddit. Often see someone explaining their point of view and then immediately following it up with, The information on this is everywhere, just go find an article on it instead of being so lazy, usually preceded or followed with a bit of shade.
If you cared enough about the subject to comment on it and belittle people over it, then it should take no effort to just put a link to any source you deem to be evidence.
Similarly, trying to persuade someone to change a core belief, such as political leaning or conspiracy, using facts, will only backfire, causing that person to believe the thing more strongly. source. This counter-intuitive fact is known as "the backfire effect", and it explains some of the more bewildering arguments one might encounter online.
And that is correct. But you can be critical of the idea without being critical of the persons reasoning skills.
[deleted] · 5 points · Posted at 18:19:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You can be both though. People just like to write off anyone insulting them as a defence mechanism. 'that person called me a moron therefore im not going to listen to him'
People who make stupid choices are often stupid. It's a key symptom.
Daos_Ex · 3 points · Posted at 19:51:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I disagree with your second point. Plenty of smart people make stupid choices all the time, as no one knows everything.
[deleted] · -2 points · Posted at 19:52:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Of course they do. But more stupid people do - otherwise they wouldnt be stupid
This is assuming people will accept a constructive argument and change their position based on new evidence. People are way too quick to base their opinions on emotion rather than logic and will dismiss any argument that goes against what they've already decided is the truth.
Also, there are literal Nazis marching around in the streets of America. They're the scum of the earth and their opinions don't deserve to be argued. It's not perpetuating close-mindedness or political separation to call those people idiots, it's the truth.
But if you don't discuss with them, then what's the plan then? Insult them? We've already established that that doesn't work. Censorship? Regardless on whether it's right or wrong, I really don't think that would go over well in The U.S. And would have a lot of backlash. Lock em up? Same as the last point. Deport them? Again, even if we completely ignore the morality of that, and even if we find a country tat would accept them (lol), that would be a logistical nightmare. Kill em? Don't really think I even need to touch upon that one.
The way I see it, discussion and debate is the only possible way to eliminate the ideology. Sure, only 1 in every 1,000 of them will actually listen. But 1 in 1,000 is a lot better then the 0 in 1,000 that you get with any other method.
Plus there's so many stories about people who express those ideologies later changing their minds. It's incredibly easy to come up with good arguments against a viewpoint that extreme (and conversely, if you can't come up with a reasonable argument against something you should reexamine your opposition).
Perhaps they are idiots, or perhaps they are advancing an agenda that seems beneficial to them. Stupidity or strategy, the bottom line is that spewing hatred only emboldens them. The one thing they can't use against the rest of us is decency.
Or help them understand anything quicker. If you end your explanation in "dumbass," it's just going to piss them off and make them WANT to help you less.
Yeah I don't get why car salespeople do this and think that you're going to give in. The exact nanosecond a salesperson is even slightly insulting or condescending, I already decide that I don't like them and I refuse to deal any further.
Morphie · 1 points · Posted at 18:56:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This happens so much in Overwatch. Let me tell my teammates they're absolute trash, that'll make 'em play better. Although to be fair most insults are due to frustration and emotion and are rarely rational.
I have been saying this for a very long time, but exceedingly more since the events leading up to (and after) the most recent U.S. presidential election. Both sides are busy throwing shade at one another rather than using facts and knowledge to win their respective arguments. No matter what part of the political spectrum you reside, you do not change hearts, minds, or the world by using inflammatory language or name calling. You do so by remaining respectful and having civil discourse. I know recent events have made it more difficult, but it is never impossible. If you do find it impossible to have a civil discussion with someone, be "the bigger man," act like an adult, and walk away from the conversation. Easier said than done, yes, but as I said before; never impossible.
I guarantee that at least part of both of those protests were hoping that there would be violence (not death, but some kind of violence) against them to create sympathy for their cause. Both the Alt-right and the Anti-Fa had that in mind I guarantee it.
In a similar vein, if you think someone is an idiot then they probably think the same of you. If you "call someone out" for ignoring "obvious facts" then there is usually just as many you aren't seeing that convinced them to see things the way they do.
Don't think you are the obvious right one that is educating a helpless idiot. If you want to change someones mind you have to be open to having yours changed as well.
I was a cart pusher for Walmart for a couple years.
Oh my god, people who block the exit/entrance doors to stand their and talk to someone they know who just walked in. Like do they not realize they're blocking everyone else from exiting/entering or do they just not give a shit.... always made me so mad.
I'm a cart pusher at BJs (haha) right now and that pisses me off. Especially when I am trying to maneuver 16 of those heavy things around the 180° corner that some genius engineer decided it was a brilliant idea to put a pole in the middle of. I always genuinely appreciate people who either attempt to inform the person or joke about them to me whether loud or quiet about those people especially if it is rude towards them. You can thank me when I take your cart for you or reciprocate my wishing you a nice day but if you call a person blocking my way an asshole you are truly a good person. Unless said person is disabled mentally or physically. Then you are a very mean person.
This is my particular pet peeve! I'm from NY and have always been a fast walker. So when others stroll 3-4 abreast in the store or a mall please be kind and keep to the right! Also while I'm thinking of it, how people in grocery stores just ram their carts into you when they come out of an aisle to turn right or left and give you a dirty look while you're going straight. Same is true of drivers in parking lots. I can't count the times my car was almost broadsided when a driver just decided to drive perpendicular to the lanes in the lot! Don't they realize the same rules of driving apply to driving in a parking lot?
[deleted] · 21 points · Posted at 19:34:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
NYC: I've seen 80-year-old grandmas unleash torrents of f-bombs on sidewalk-hogging tourists during the morning work commute rush.
[deleted] · 5 points · Posted at 19:47:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, pet peeve of mine too. I'm very tall, so I always try to be cognizant of being in the way. It's frustrating when others cannot do the same.
[deleted] · 4 points · Posted at 19:58:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Omg I just moved from NYC to the Midwest for school for a few years and this has been the worst. Also ppl are fatter here so your average 4 person family creates a huge obstacle. SMDH
i was at costco yesterday and had to literally grab a cart out of this young indian womans hands and move it to the side. She gave me this look, like "how dare you!". I had to explain to her in a voice teetering on explosive rage that you can not stop sideways in front of an isle to text on a sunday in the only costco in queens (one of the five bouroughs of NYC, population 2.335 million)
[deleted] · 8 points · Posted at 18:55:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
also old people who crash into you with their cart, then you step forward a few inches to give them room, and they crash into you again
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:44:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's when you place you heel on that bottom basket bit like a door stopper. If they still do it and they're not just leaning on it for balance assistance, and just being an absentminded dick, kick back when they push forward.
m0c0 · 7 points · Posted at 19:42:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
For sure. Working as a server for years I've always been baffled at the amount of people who stand in high traffic areas i.e. stairs, doorways, walkways, etc.
Being a server makes these people stand out more than anything. The worst is if they recognize that they're in the way but do nothing to solve the problem they're creating. They star at you holding a tray of food or a handful of glasses and have that idiotic look on their face like they're wondering how you're going to get around them.
Theme parks are the worst. Everyone's awareness IQ drops 40 points. Bastards with a family of 8 stopping to look at a map right in a walkway choke point.
JTP1228 · 5 points · Posted at 19:41:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
These people deserve to be punched in the back of the head, especially when blocking sidewalks walking slow as hell
Then there are the guys coming from opposite directions who stop their cars in the middle of the street, roll down their driver's side windows and idle there talking to each other.
It seems to be even worse if you're employed at the store. Customers will simply refuse to move to let you get by or will walk directly towards you and not move to avoid collision, because by wearing that apron they just kinda forget you're human.
ghc86 · 6 points · Posted at 19:59:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Try being married to someone who does that. I hate going in public with my wife mostly for this reason. The other reason is I hate leaving the house.
Jpeevo · 4 points · Posted at 20:29:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So many people have no idea what's going on around them, or they don't care. What's so hard about sliding the cart all the way to the right, then standing on the same side of it to look? Then, when you see what you want, walk over and grab it.
If nobody is in the aisle, you can do whatever the eff you want, but at least look to see whether you're blocking anybody.
If you are a group coming from the other direction on the sidewalk, I shouldnt have to squeeze myself against a wall waiting for your troop to pass, or jump into the incoming traffic. Pick a side and fucking converge there. You are not VIP convoy. Interrupt your three man wide discussion and let people in the other direction do their thing.
Theirs always that old lady/dude who needs like 7' of clearence to move her cart - You'll be hugging the wall of one isle and a lady with a tiny shopping cart will walk by and be like "EXCUSE ME" like just move your cart through...
I love the grocery store Aldi. Good food for good prices. Small stores though, it's part of how they're cheap. People who shop there are completely oblivious to what's going on around them. It's maddening.
Right! I'm in the city everyday and I can't tell you how many people just decide to block entire city sidewalks to have a conversation in a group. I just walk through them.
There should be a special place in hell for people who walk slowly and three-abreast in central london
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 20:27:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oh my god, the walking road blocks. I am at the point where i just get up behind them and loudly say 'BEEP BEEP BEEP' until they move the fuck out of the way
I have to constantly remind my nephews (ages 13 and 15) to be aware of their surroundings because they constantly take up too much space, bump into people, etc. It's frustrating sometimes lol
Tramm · 4 points · Posted at 19:17:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It happens at work all the fucking time... they've built 15ft wide hallways to accommodate the amount of people, but there's always that group who just got off or is headed to break and they walk 4 people abreast blocking the entire hallway and my tiny ass frame, which takes up about 1/16 of the space is expected to stop and stand against the wall so they can continue their parade. Every day I swear I'm just going to plow right through the middle of them... But I dont.
I would disagree, because there is an enormous difference between a scientific theory and an hypothesis that cannot be ignored. A hypothesis = educated speculation/guess based on previous knowledge/data, theory = Hypothesis supported by overwhelming evidence, considered as "truth" until it finally breaks and is revised. Basically, a theory is like a super hypothesis that has seen quite some shit and lived to tell the tale... for now
[deleted] · 13 points · Posted at 19:46:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Scientific theory is something that has been tested and retested with actual evidence to be proven effectively true (ie a fact based on all available knowledge and understanding of the universe)
A layman's "theory" or "conspiracy theory" are pure hypotheticals that are used to justify a specific belief that someone holds that has never been actually tested.
The difference between a "theory" and a scientific Theory (eg evolution) can be differentiated by this example:
You come across ruins of a city thousands of years old how do you determine what caused its destruction?
One "theory" is that the civilisation was evil and a magical being destroyed it. This theory comes from oral tradition and is based on stories told by nomads and traders to their children to moralise and teach them to be obedient.
The second theory is based on scientific based evidence, they find deposits of oil, tar and natural gas underneath, and find evidence of burn marks from those same substances on the stones themselves. Also the area us on a fault line, with evidence of previous earthquakes in the area.
The science based theory in this case would state that it would be likely that an earthquake occurred with natural gas escaping, a lantern breaks, starts a fire and the deposits of tar and oil shoot up like fireballs and rain down from the sky
Which theory is more likely? The one that requires a fantastical explanation, or the scientific one? That is the difference between scientific theories and speculation.
We're talking the big-hitting theories here - anything most scientists would claim to be a scientific theory has been tested and retested, and failed to be disproven (falsifiability is a major component to scientific theory). A lot of research doesn't get the replication study that it should, that is true. But with the big political topics like global warming, vaccines, etc, plenty of testing has been done.
Why would you be irritated by that. Nobody knows what constitutes science really. Different fields have different epistemic standards, different methodological criteria. In many ways science is just what scientists say it is.
Edit: itt: people who think the definition a body of knowledge ranging from string theory to anthropology is obvious.
You should read some more about the philosophy of science, and of modern science. I think you'll find far less variation in legitimate modern science than you seem to think there is.
I know a great deal about the philosophy of science. That's why I said what I did. We have no consensus on the definition of science. We have a host of competing ideas and theories. However different scientific fields are often the best idea of what epistemic criteria are applicable within their body of work, which is why scientist decide what constitutes science. Science has greatly expanded its definition in the last century it's astonishing.
I've studied exactly this question actually. Pretending like science can easily be defined is as idiotic as the people the other poster was bitching about. The definition of science is evolving every day.
On another note, science is often defined as a methodology for studying the known universe. This is almost always done using the scientific method(with the annoying exception of case studies), which when broken down into its part is simply;
* make a control group
* trying something
* see if it works
* write it down
* repeat
To note under these definitions everything can be treated as a science, which fits into most scientists viewpoint that science is for everyone, not just those with a degree.
No I studied the scientific method itself. The idea of a singular scientific method has been utterly rejected since at least the 1960s. Your "definition" does even get close to defining all the different ways of thinking about "science". Sorry to break the circlejerk, people want science to be obvious because it gives them a sense of surity, but the question "what is science?" Is extremely complex and has literally millions of pages dedicated to it.
Economics is like science in that it uses words which have very specific meanings. The reason for that is to avoid ambiguity when communicating ideas with other professionals in that particular field. Bug is an example. In entomology it means an insect with biting/piercing mouth parts. In common language it can mean any small land invertebrate.
The problem comes when people confuse a technical term with the common meaning. The example OP gave is an infamous one where people say "evolution is just a theory".
Now, people can be excused for not being aware of every technical term used in every academic discipline but evolution is the cornerstone of biology (and therefore medicine). It's why we are human and it should be taught to every pupil at high school before the age they are legally allowed to drop out.
And fuck no, it should not be taught along side creation as a competing "theory" in science class rooms. It should be taught as the scientific fact that it is.
Can confirm, am economist and get blamed for everything.
My uncle thinks we all have a big meeting to decide how the stock market is going to perform...or something; I actually have no idea what he thinks, just that he thinks I have some influence or insight into stocks of particular companies. I just graduated and am teaching at a university nowhere near any stock exchanges and do nothing directly with any company that sells stocks. My research doesn't even involve stocks. I know nothing about the finances of particular companies.
First of all, economists don't have "laws"; that's a luxury that only physical sciences can afford. "Models", "hypotheses", and "theories" are all generically the same thing. In simplest terms, in any discipline (economics or otherwise), a theory/model is just an explanation for observed phenomena. We test our models/theories just like any other field, and we adapt our models/theories with new information.
The real problem with economics is that many people think they understand completely how the economy works (they don't) or that a comprehensive, simple explanation for economic movements exists (it doesn't). What economists do is really try to narrow down on basic relationships that we can test, and then explain with theoretical models through what mechanisms these observed relationships occur. We then test the implications of our models, rinse, and repeat ad infinitum.
We have hundreds of models that do pretty good jobs of explaining the phenomena that they are intended to explain in ways that generally hold up to empirical testing. But, people take an introductory economics course in high school, vaguely remember something about supply and demand and maybe some shifting lines and think that's all there is to our methods or theory.
Yes, very interesting, but economists do use pseudoscientific expressions, e.g. law of diminishing returns, efficient market theory, theory of competitive advantage. It's not the language I object to (in Humanities there's a field called "critical theory" and they don't claim it's scientific), it's the pretense that their field is a scientific, accurate description of the world, esp. when trying to push policy. To claim that a model like competitive advantage has a descriptive validity of a scientific theory, which is what the Friedmans and the Mankiws of the U.S. told generation after generation of economists they trained, is disingenuous to say the least, and has had real world damaging consequences for many people in poorer countries.
But, that's the point I'm trying to make: on many topics, we do have accurate descriptions of the world (at least as far as is testable). The problem is that, like with many sciences, the popular descriptions of our models lack the nuance that they must maintain to remain accurate. The idea of comparative advantage is a mathematical necessity and definitely exists. The problem is that people do not really understand its implications.
Let's just take comparative advantage in international trade as a very simple example. The usual story everyone is told in introductory economics courses is that if there are two people who each have a relative advantage in making two different things, say apples and bananas, then if they trade they can each get more apples and bananas.
In a very basic sense, that is true: international trade does increase the earnings of companies that trade internationally, but is the total amount of earnings (apples/bananas) really what we care about? Generally, no. We care about how many apples and bananas we get to eat as individuals. The idea that international trade is a benefit for individuals assumes that the gains from trade will be evenly distributed in the economy in some way. Otherwise, banana or apple farmers who get out-competed by the farmers (or cheaper production costs) in the foreign country lose out.
So, does that mean international trade is bad because it could destroy jobs? Again, not necessarily. All it means is that, in order to be universally beneficial, some of the gains from international trade should, in some way, be used to help those who were previously making the objects currently being traded for to do something else that is actually productive.
I'm trying to not make this into a wall of text, so I'll stop there. But, the things that economists say are not just musings. Our models are mathematically precise and testable with data. Economists don't "push for policy"; we use our combined expertise to try and get policymakers to recognize economic facts that are almost always overlooked. I think that the fundamental problem arises when people (who are not usually economists) attempt to apply any particular model to a purpose beyond that for which it was designed. I think the best thing that economists can do to help remedy this is to be more clear about when particular models are applicable, even in very basic economics courses, to help students understand that, like any field, there is no grand unifying theory, only small theories sewn together.
I feel like most people either know roughly what hypothesis means, or are at least able to figure it out from context. The word "hypothetical," is pretty common place too, so I'd be surprised if it was that hard for most people to get.
Burnaby · 1 points · Posted at 19:24:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There are lots of words that mean one thing in a everyday context and something related, but different in an technical context. Like, a lot of people say "a tomato is a fruit", and it is, in a technical context, but not in an everyday context.
In normal speech, a “theory” is essentially a guess based on a few scattered examples. But in science, the word “theory” actually means “a thing that has been incredibly well tested and substantiated over and over.”
So, for example, the “Theory of Relativity” means “We’re 99.9% certain that this is how relativity works.”
E: for bonus points, it’s worth noting that a “fact” is the lowest (least true) unit of information in science, whereas a “theory” is the highest (most true).
Time and numerous testing and retesting. A theory stands up to many independent testing and retesting; all confirming the initial hypotheses and conclusions. For the most part.
The scientific community agrees on a definition. Researchers submit articles. It gets peer reviewed and published. Other researchers read it and either accept it or reject it in their own work. Over time, a concept may become a scientific theory. It's pretty hard to prove something is universally true so it's a pretty big thing when it happens
No one person. The scientific community as a whole tests and continually adjusts theories over years and years of research. A theory as a whole is highly unlikely to be thrown out, but a tiny aspect of it might be reevaluated based on new evidence.
For example, gravity is a theory. We pretty well think we understand how it works because over years and years of research various scientific groups have refined the theory to its current state. However on the very very big or very very small scales, we have less data and are mostly working with mathematical models and logic (any rogue astro or particle physicists feel free to correct me, I'm just a geologist mostly acquainted with the details of the theories of continental drift and evolution). New data about how matter acts on those scales could change our understanding of gravity, but only for that part of our understanding.
Well if its just an idea thats unsubstantiated then most people will just call it a hypothesis, only once it has been backed up with reserch will people start to call it a theory and if the general consensus is like 99.999999999999999999999% sure of a theory then people might start refering to the idea as a law
There isnt realy any particular person or group that 'decides' what its called, other than maybe scientific journal publishers who might decide not to publush a hypothesis presented as a theory if the author hasnt got enough proof
No one. The whole argument is a farce because that's not how we scientiests use the terms. We use them almost interchangably, but someone at some point decided to add them to the curriculum of science education. That might have been well-meaning but furstratingly now every fedora-wearing internet argument knight thinks they are strictly defined terms that can be used as gotchas to win arguments.
It doesn't matter if something is a hypothesis or a theory or a law or a concept. What matters is how much evidence there is for it, how well it predicts stuff and how well it meshes with other hyptheses/theories/laws/concepts.
Dude I am a bloody postdoc. When I say that scientists don't usually care about the distinction between a hypothesis and a theory I know what I'm talking about.
Besides, if we're going to talk philosophy of science, then I think Popper Kuhn showed rather conclusively that concepts like scientific truth, hypothesis and theory depend strongly on consensus rather than an abstract concept of evidence.
Actually, it's more like "We're pretty much 99.999% sure this is a thing that's happening in some way similar to how our conclusions demonstrate. However, we still have a lot to learn about why and how it happens." Evolution? Happens, but we're still working out all the details. Gravity? Same problem. The Big Bang? Oh yeah, definitely happened, but we don't have a god damn clue why. See what I mean?
They aren't the same thing. They aren't even really in the same category. Laws are simply universal constants, like the speed of light and the strength of gravity. Theories are explanations backed up by mounds evidence which adhere to the universal constants. So I guess you could say that laws are "more true," but that's way oversimplifying it.
thank you for this, if you don't mind a follow up question, would it be accurate to say theories are built on a foundation of laws which are built on a foundation of data/facts?
Theory really says very little about certainty. The Theory of Relativity is very sure; we've not even really worked out how to test String Theory. The problem is that people think 'theory' means 'guess'; it really means something like 'explanation of facts'.
The biggie of course is Evolution. The fact that it's called a theory doesn't mean that it's just a wild guess, as though no-one really has a clue. But then neither does it mean "this is absolutely, definitely true". It just means "this is a reasonable way of explaining what we see", which you then have to weigh up according to the evidence.
I think a more useful definition is that theory = explanation for how something works. An explanation that might have all sorts of evidence to back it up. Or none.
Scientific laws are descriptions (often mathematical) while scientific theories are explanations.
An example of a scientific law would be Newton's 2nd Law of Motion. This law says that acceleration is proportional to net force and inversely proportional to mass (a=F/m). It describes how an object of some mass would experience a change in velocity related in some way to the size of the force acting on it. No where in Newton's law is the mechanism behind this observation explained. The law only describes the interaction.
An example of a scientific theory might be Plate Techtonic Theory. This theory takes a large collection of observations and evidence (earthquakes, volcanoes, seismic waves, continental shapes, fossil records, etc.) to form an overarching explanation (the Earth's crust is made up of moving plates).
A scientific theory must be supported by available evidence or else modified to fit available evidence. It's not just an educated guess. It is the explanation that fits and takes into account all available evidence and observations.
kyew · 4 points · Posted at 19:37:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Chiming in to back up baking_bad's answer. A "theory" isn't a higher level of trueness over a fact. It's a statement that collects a bunch of facts (which say how something happens) and uses them to explain why something happens.
Take evolution for example, or "the theory of evolution by natural selection." It's the observation of the individual processes that describe inheritance, survival, and mutation and how they combine to create a process that's more elegant than the sum of its parts. But there is no single "evolution" process that can be described by one law.
When you and I are talking about theories, we have a bit of evidence here and there. Like for example fam theories on what's that mean in this episode.
Scientific theories are when there's so much proof you cannot ignore it. Evolution is "just a theory", but it has a LOT of proof behind it, that's why it's accepted as fact. Scientists don't like confirming things unless they're absolutely certain of it. Gravitational waves works out perfectly in math, but they're not real until we detect them, and until we do, it's "just a theory".
eraser8 · 8 points · Posted at 19:24:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
...until we detect them, and until we do, it's "just a theory".
You're misunderstanding what a theory is.
First, gravity waves aren't theory. They're phenomena predicted by a theory called general relativity.
Second, we have observed them, in 2016, thanks to the LIGO experiment.
Third, after an idea reaches theory status it can't graduate to a higher level of scientific acceptance. The title of theory is the highest honor science can bestow on any idea.
And, despite what a lot of people think, a scientific law is not greater than a scientific theory.
Scientific theories are when there's so much proof you cannot ignore it.
There are plenty of scientific theories that don't have such a strong support. For example, there are multiple competing theories about how life on Earth started, all with some evidence for them, but none of it conclusive.
The thing is that you cannot tell if a theory is actually correct just by the label, you have to actually look at the evidence for it.
For stuff like that it's hard to really tell, because it happened so long ago and we can't see into the past. They're multiple theories about how the moon formed, there's evidence for all but nothing conclusive. For evolution, we could see its effects everywhere, that's why it's so widely accepted.
[deleted] · 8 points · Posted at 18:17:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I love the show... but i still cringe every time he says that.
[deleted] · 10 points · Posted at 19:11:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm fine with the colloquial use of the word "theory" in non-scientific discourse--and Game Theory videos would qualify as being non-scientific, only applying science to gaming to try to explain lore or possible issues without having the ordinary rigor of a true scientific analysis. My only problem is when people discuss scientific theories and then confuse the scientific use of the word with the colloquial use, which is an educational failure more than anything.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 22:05:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Colloquial use of the word theory is what contributes to the confusion of the scientific usage. The fact we have a colloquial usage that is way more common severely hurts the conveying of the scientific definition.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 22:16:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is a fair argument and I completely agree. That being said, I'm not really aware of any other simple words that convey the same meaning that the colloquial usage of "theory" has taken on. "Hypothesis" doesn't exactly roll off the tongue and is more difficult for your average person to remember (again, a limitation of current standards of education). It seems pretty much inevitable that this sort of language change was going to happen.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 22:22:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"My idea" or "what I'm thinking is" are the closest matches that aren't hypothesis.
I agree, hypothesis doesn't roll of the tongue and thats why its never used, even though the colloquial usage of "theory" is almost always a "hypothesis" of sorts.
That's a problem though as we see with debates all of the time, the general public thinks of "theory" in the same way that scientist think of "hypothesis". That is a devastating miscommunication.
Along the same vein, the whole "freedom of speech" thing. It means you can say what you like and not have legal ramifications, but you may very well have life ramifications.
The lights for main thoroughfares in this city are timed largely based on speed limits, so when you speed past me, I will cruise up to you a couple minutes later at a red. You might be a couple cars ahead of me now. If you floor it through every light to pass people and wait for them at the next red, you might in 10-11 lights make it one light ahead of me. Maybe. But the system really isn't designed to reward that kind of behavior, and you're just lowering your mpg and burning through your brakes faster.
I used to commute on my bicycle and nothing pissed those people off more than the fact that I was waiting at every red light with them. No matter how fast they went from light to light, my effective pace was identical to theirs.
I wish the lights in my city was timed for the speed limit. If you are stopped at one light and drive the limit to the next, you will hit another red. Every light, all the way through town.
But, if you go a bit over the limit, you will have green all the way. A little speeding and you are cruising through town instead of stop and go all day.
Lucent · 1 points · Posted at 06:36:27 on August 19, 2017 · (Permalink)
That means they're timed for traffic flowing in the other direction.
The speed limit in my city recently changed from 30mph to 20mph but the lights are still phasing at 30mph. I don't obey the new speed limit purely because of this.
That even if you let people walk over you, they will still complain you are not flat enough.
[deleted] · 6896 points · Posted at 17:16:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's true. When I started standing up for myself, I was surprised by how people reacted. I recently told my boss that I'm not going to continue working all of the overtime he's been forcing on us. I told him I was taking the next three days off, and he could fire me if he wanted to. I still have my job, and I'm only scheduled for about 40 hours each week now.
Flip of that is if you're never taught how to actually stand up for yourself, either doormat is all you know or you're the kind of escalatory prick who gets elected president.
I realized it after interacting with one person online. He treated himself like a shit, called himself miserable, complained that everyone humiliated him, and at the same time he craved for attention and sympathy. I realized: "Wait, if everyone treats you like a shit, why must I treat you different?" Treating him gently while he treated himself like a crap seemed the same way as I must drink dirty water when everyone avoid it, or wearing dirty rugs which no one even want to touch. Day by day, I started really hate him and treat him bad. I realized that I was wrong, and I tried to explain him why I did that, and I hoped he would change his behaviour. I failed. Finally, I had to block him to stop it. I still feel myself guilty, but it was out of my control.
TLDR: There was a person online, who treated himself like a shit and craved sympathy. All I could give him was mocking. I was an asshole, but couldn't help myself.
I prefer the machiavellian method of appearing like a doormat. It's much more fun to see somebody think you're a doormat and try to treat you like it only to find that the doormat is actually a trap door that drops them into a dark pit of full of angry albino bears that tear them apart.
The internet is full of other people's words over other people's pictures so here this is. http://imgur.com/4BLc5q6
made it for a simple background for inspiration. I've always struggled with this and really self-worth in general. So thank you.
The internet is full of other people's words over other people's pictures so here this is. http://imgur.com/4BLc5q6
made it for a simple background for inspiration. I've always struggled with this and really self-worth in general. So thank you.
dragn99 · 2 points · Posted at 18:55:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sums up what I deal with working customer service for a major food delivery service who may have just bought yelp.. dam people wanting a full refund for not getting free silverware.. go die in a hole
Nemo_K · 2 points · Posted at 20:47:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Only 19 minutes ago? That's the freshest sprog I've ever seen! :D Not to mention, I actually felt the need to save this one, and I may even print it out, because Lord knows I should get better at standing up for myself...
I like the meter you used here. You tend to overuse some specific ones. The formatting of the lines also different than usual. This was a refreshingly different poem from you!
The problem is when teachers put too much of their energy trying to be their students' friend. I'm not saying teachers can't also be friends with their students, but when you're teaching: that's simply not the hat you're wearing, and your students opinion of you as a "nice person" should not factor into your teaching style. If a (good) teacher is "being shitty" to a student, it's not because they're a shitty person or teacher, it's because the student is failing in their role as a student. If the student doesn't like the consequences of their actions, that's their problem, not the teacher's.
Had to learn this with my family. Obviously I had no control over it when I was a kid, which made it all the harder as an adult. But now I stand up for myself and my beliefs and even though it makes things a lot more uncomfortable, I at least respect myself. They're going to treat me like shit either way, I might as well feel better about myself in the midst of it. I'm no longer meek about it, and it doesn't bother me as much when they say mean stuff about me, because I no longer think I have to just "take it."
[deleted] · 7 points · Posted at 17:45:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
cdnball · 6 points · Posted at 17:57:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you appreciate your own farts, other people are more likely to appreciate them too.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:15:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Honestly, I used to walk all over my old boss. All of my coworkers needed hours, had shit schedules, hated their job. I worked hard, chose my hours and never came in on days I didn't want to. Was offered to move up the ladder, but didn't want to stay there and left to go to school instead. I was also the only one allowed to eat the expensive stuff.
Somehow I maintained a great relationship with all of my coworkers, if you needed help I was the first one there, but you damn well better have my back too, unless you have a good excuse.
There's this cheesy sign near my house that changes all the time. This week's cheesy quote is, "A person teaches you how to treat them. What do you teach others?" Really been mulling that one over ever since
You're damn right. I live by this motto. This applies to jobs, relationships, friendships, and everyday socializing. People will go as far as allowed. They know, oh boy do they know the line.
Some will look you in the eyes while stepping over that line, that's when you need to show your backbone. You only have to do it once. But if you allow yourself to be treated poorly, you have to endure shit on the daily. Fuck that!
The American Dad episode with the dance off and the whales I think.
raj96 · 1 points · Posted at 18:19:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
you just taught me how i should be teaching people to treat me
Isord · 1 points · Posted at 18:20:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I can see this is true even in how I treat other people. I don't think it's even malicious it's just if I need a favor I'll ask the people that in the past have been the most willing to help. I think I tend to be one of those people for OTHER people so I guess I shouldn't feel too bad but I do sometimes wonder how people view it coming from me.
Sadly, this is why children who are abused at home are more likely to be bullied in school. They lack self confidence much of the time, and other kids pick up on it.
Yup, "What you put up with is what you stand for."
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:26:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I was talking to someone once about their job and they seemed pretty content with their co-workers (this person being important in the workplace but also holding a regular position). I said something to the effect of "Everybody's pretty nice to you there" and his response was "Of course. I wouldn't allow myself to be treated otherwise".
I didn't realize before that point that a person could actively refuse to be disrespected, and do so without being an absolute jerk.
Recently I started to put myself first. My quality of life and general happiness has improved thousand-fold because I've started respecting myself.
Danarky · 4 points · Posted at 17:57:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Some people do. Some people hate it when you respect yourself because that somehow offends their own well being.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 18:19:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's when you learn that a lot of the friends you had when you didn't respect yourself only liked you because of that fact, because they don't respect themselves either.
Fuck those people. They're losers.
Danarky · 2 points · Posted at 18:57:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There are people who don't respect that, but no one shoud want to work for those people anyway.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:22:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Also, bullies like to get bullied.
That boss sounded like a bit of a bully. They have some kind of respect or admiration or something when someone does it back to them. It is the oddest thing.
edit: It probably makes them really uncomfortable, since it reminds them of when they got bullied and where they learned it from -- their parents.
Vio_ · 2 points · Posted at 18:39:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Previously on Reddit: "The problem with respect is some people use it to say "recognize me as an authority," and others use it to say "you are my equal"."
moncrey · 1 points · Posted at 19:27:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
this is exactly why i nail job interviews when i have them. I dont suck up. I tell it straight about what i do and what i need and i dont butter them up or beg.
Or maybe his boss didn't know he felt that way. And once he communicated his displeasure, his boss understood the situation and gave him the schedule he desired. ...sorry for the pronoun disaster.
I did something similar and ended up getting a couple promotions and pay raises. Basically said that I'd been working above my position for quite a while and doing OT to take on additional stuff the team needed. Was told OT isn't expected or rewarded (even though I'd been told they needed me to keep doing the work). Told them I wouldn't be working any OT and made it clear I was unhappy with the pay situation. Got two promotions and doubled my pay over the course of about 2 years with the first large raise being months after.
Also once had my pay raise docked when I refused to work OT on the grounds that it wouldn't recover the project because they were still mismanaging it. They knocked my raise down by .5% and told me. I told them it was worth it. Couple years later they had another mismanaged project and made the OT optional and paid 2x people's salary for the extra hours they worked (I chose not to take part).
it was an issue with that one manager that I worked out (to some degree). There are other benefits to working at my current company...and like I said I have not worked any overtime in years now.
If I stay late, I leave early another day. Simple as that and not one manager has questioned it. I made it clear what my limits are and they respect them.
I think it would depend on how replaceable you are. If you're in a shitty minimum wage job, yeah you're likely out, but if you're in a salaried position, confidence and negotiation can go a long way. Still gotta be careful though and make sure you're actually in a position to negotiate.
all that sweet cash. overtime here is compensated with +50% bonus. weekends, nightshifts, etc get additional bonus on top of that. sure, it's hard, but you can always wipe away your tears with a pile of money
I love my job. I work construction in Alaska. In the winter (office work + training) we work 37.5 (or fewer) hours per week. In the summer (construction season) we work 60+ hours per week with 1.5x pay for every hour over 37.5. This past week I just worked 92.5 hours, so I'm looking forward to that paycheck. It's also a remote job where I'm getting per diem and living in a camper. There's no real benefit to working short hours when you aren't going home at night.
i'd love to do that. amazing pay and you actually get to save that money simply because 1) you work all day long 2) you're living in a remote place. do that for a few years and buy a house or something. very good for making bank but nothing i'd want to do for decades to be honest
I don't know. I've heard that the people who work oil rigs in the ocean (great money but nothing to do) just gamble with each other, then come back to shore and blow all the money.
Maybe you don't mind it, but 40-50 hours is a lot of your time. My point still stands: to say you're "only" working a full-time position's worth of hours says a lot.
[deleted] · 28 points · Posted at 17:41:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Auroryl · 2 points · Posted at 17:52:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Will you one day collect all your poems from Reddit, including their previous post for context, and publish a book? If so I am interested!!
How much work there is to do relative to how many employees are available to do it is management's problem, not the employees'. That's what management is.
Own it. Don't fear the label if you have to. Stand up for yourself but graciously to offset the label.
K3wp · 7 points · Posted at 18:01:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I told him I was taking the next three days off, and he could fire me if he wanted to.
I've said this a couple time in my career, to management (I work in IT).
Me: "Am I fired?"
Boss: "No."
Me: "Ok, then shut up. Either fire me or fuck off. You don't pay me enough to yell at me."
Surprising how well that works!
[deleted] · 7 points · Posted at 18:02:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, my words were "I'll be back Monday. Fire me if you want. I'm not sacrificing my health for your profits."
K3wp · 6 points · Posted at 18:13:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's a sensitive subject for me personally because I've worked in a couple shops (in the early 2000's) that were working us 70-80 hours a week. Until we got laid off.
I too started standing up for myself, I realized that the worst workers at my company just got special treatment instead of being fired, I worked twice as hard as some people and the thanks I get? nothing but more work to do.
Been working my ass off for this dead end job for too long, so I just stoped caring, I put in the minimal effort and spend the remaining effort on finding a way out of there instead.
We get so little time to to a proper job, basically no one manages their job description, I used to get anxiety over it, because our customers are nice people and deserve better, but I simply cannot take that on.
It's not my fault we practically have 7.5 hours to do 10 hour of work every day.
Unless you are one of old timers who can't keep up and then you get a sweet gig.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 18:35:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I used to talk back a lot, stand up for myself, but one incident left me scared of doing that. I stood up for myself and got punched in the face. Now I'm just apathetic to situations. I believe people are total shit heads and I really dont want to get punched again for standing up for myself.
If you actually got hit, I would say it's about time to start learning how to defend yourself. A lot of cities, or even towns, really, have at least one martial arts club there. Boxing, karate, or some other martial art, if you get hit you have full rights to hit back, and harder.
I think a lot of people don't stand up for themselves for fear of starting shit. I'd rather be a troublemaker and get hit than a doormat.
My boss sent a group text about a meeting off hours tomorrow. He said if you didn't make it you would be written up. I went through all of my texts and I received no notice for this meeting. I'm not dropping my plans for less than 24 hours notice, especially because I was going to go out to dinner with a friend who's leaving for college in two days.
I got fired from a car dealership for complaining to management to many times about their delivery vehicles being death on wheels. Half the mirrors are missing, the vehicles run like absolute shit, like the vans stale all the fucking time and I'm usually on highways which can be very dangerous to stale out on. usually gotta fuck with the battery because the vehicles were in such shitty shape. But it's a fucking dealership! Why won't they fix their vans for employees? Why make the job dangerous to save a couple bills when your a multi million dollar owner of 4 car dealerships in the area. I asked around after awhile and found out everyone hates the owner because he does this with everything. Apparently all the computers everyone uses (except his) is rundown and old as fuck. But who gives a fuck about the employees? Car dealerships are some of the worst places to work. Well atleast this one and his others.
JC84909 · 2 points · Posted at 18:06:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This! I did the same thing as of the beginning of the year. My team was reduced to just me due to my co workers leaving due to all the BS and well it piled onto me. Luckily being the only person left in the team gave my some bargaining room to stand up and say nope not doing it, I'm 1 person. There was still pushback but I held firm. Things aren't so bad now
At my old job I had been working 60 hours a week for the last year and a half because my manager needed somebody to cover another shift "temporarily" until he could hire somebody else. I didn't really want to do this but was helping them out.
When I accidentally let my cpr certification expire for a few days a more senior manager called me into his office and chewed me out. I was apologeticat first because it was my fault I got my dates mixed up. But then he started acting like they were doing me this huge favor by "letting" me work overtime every weekend and that they wouldnt be allowing me to work extra until I got it fixed.
I smiled and said "I'm truly sorry for letting the cert expire and I will fix it asap but you guys have been promising me you would find somebody else to cover those shifts for over a year. I would LOVE it if I didn't have to work weekends anymore".
He just looked at me sighed and said "just get your certification renewed."
I feel like I needed to do this with my ex-girlfriend. We lived an hour and a half apart but near the end of the relationship I was always the one driving to her for date nights because she would be "too tired" to come see me. Or I get there and she wants to lay in bed and "cuddle" while she wakes up.
She worked overnight shifts and heavy amounts of overtime so I was trying to be understanding about it, but there's gotta be a limit on how much you can pull that shit, you know?
To add a little tidbit, when they react angrily it is not cause you stood up for yourself, its because they were denied walking over you. That helped me a lot when trying to not feel guilty after.
Years ago "they" called off all leave for a month due to finance whining about it being unfair they had to crunch during fiscal year close out month, so to appease them, all departments were made to suffer the same.
I'd preapproved my leave 4 months in advance, and after a very convincing talking to informing me I would be fired; I packed up my desk and left my corporate stuff on my manager's desk. I said, "Do me a favor and call me before I drive in on the following Monday, let me know if I have a job or should stay home."
When I came to work after my leave is the only time in six years that no one asked me how my weekend was. My stuff was on my desk, and even senior leadership acted like I'd hopped into a time machine skipping me forward a week and would seek out and eat any who spoke of it.
Truly, the most bizarre professional experience I've ever had. I stayed for a year or two after that.
Haha, yup. I once had a boss try to cancel my 3 week vacation the day before it started. I said "I'm going on vacation, and I'll be back in three weeks. If you want to fire me when I get back, go ahead." Still had my job.
you must have some key skills or abilities as most places would replace you ASAP. They still may do that. If you are in IT there is an H1B who will take the job for less pay and never complain about the OT.
Even if there is someone ready to take your job the moment you are out, it's still a tough blow to lose an employee like that. It will take months to bring a new hire up to speed. Longer to be as good as the old employee.
I'm saying it doesn't have to a irreplaceable skill. It just has to be enough of a hassle to replace. If they are forcing a bunch of OT in order to meet a project deadline (or catching up), they cannot afford to lose personnel. It's not as easy as picking someone up the next day. You gotta go post the job, find applicants, interview them, get them through the company's hiring process, onboard them, train them, then get them on the project. That's a lot of time and resources just to get things back on track.
This obviously doesn't really apply to low-skill work. You could probably find another burger-flipper to work a McJob as well as your previous one within a week.
Yes it takes time but if you are willing to outsource to a contractor or contractor agency it can be quick. I have done it myself to add or backfill. If you have a good relationship with an agency they can send you resumes in a few hours.
so what is your skill they keep you on versus another illegal? You speak Spanish and English plus know they are violating the law and would turn them in?
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:34:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You completely missed the point of my original comment and the one I was responding to with it.
gimpwiz · 1 points · Posted at 19:16:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There are only so many H1B slots. Getting one is a crapshoot. If people earning $150k in the bay area struggle getting H1Bs, why do you think it's so easy for an employer to replace an IT worker, just like that?
There are also a lot of costs associated with hiring and firing, other costs associated with visas, not to mention that no manager really wants to let someone go without being able to immediately backfill the position ... ideally with someone fully trained ... which is nearly impossible.
If more people say no, it'll be even harder to replace them.
IF more people say no...thats the key, the pressure on management to do more for less means they often sacrifice the quality worker either by working them too much or paying them poorly or both. They leave and then to get someone quick the backfill is outsourced to offshore or to firms that have the H1 slots. Yes they are limited but there are so many loopholes they might as well not be.
gimpwiz · 1 points · Posted at 20:31:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Offshoring is not limited, but by this point many companies have found that blindly offshoring projects doesn't work out. It's not a quick process to offshore.
It's hardly ever a quick process to backfill.
And specifically which loopholes about H1B visas do you believe make them effectively not limited?
you can get an outsourcing contract signed for a specifc skill in a couple weeks. I have done it.
H1s are just one of the Visas in use that are abused. As someone else said the quality is spotty and the whole "prevailing wage" concept is abused by the way job descriptions are written where no one can qualify except an H1 with a fake resume.
Hiring an H1B1's isn't that easy, I've talked to HR about it and known some imported workers (indian guys). I've also never met a hiring manager that enjoys interviewing and hiring people. As someone who has been involved in the hiring process I can understand why, lots of terrible candidates out there (at least in the tech field).
Also on the H1B1's, the ones I've met in person have been great technically, I'm guessing only their best make it to our shore. But offshore developers tend to have a ton of issues, I think it's mostly communication and different styles of doing things. So I can see why for some work companies would be hesitant to go with them.
I know all that having been in IT Management for years, my point still stands and I agree that there are good H1Bs and bad too. If his firm has an agreement with an agency holding H1 slots they can get people in quick and at lower pay.
Hey HylianGains you the really stand up guy drunk guy +1
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:47:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I've experienced this too, although to a lesser extent than you of course. Sure, some people get annoyed every so often, but it consistently blows my mind how often people will give you what you want as long as you have the balls to actually ask for it. I've mainly been applying this to my social/dating life and just the people I've gone on dates with and the success I've had is surprising considering all I did was...make my intentions known.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:52:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I always have a hard time being assertive. I did this to my freelance job. I told him I'm not working on weekends. He hasn't bothered me ever since, unless it's really urgent.
You do get paid X1.5 thigh right? Some people are in the opposite situation, for instance overtime is frowned upon and will literally get you a "talking to"
I got a promotion shortly after punching my boss in the head
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:13:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That said, it's probably not a good idea to try this if you're mopping floors. Only do it after you've considered how much of a pain in the ass it would be for your company to replace you.
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djdadi · 1 points · Posted at 18:18:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ah I love being salaried. I work overtime every week without a schedule and without extra pay.
Unfortunately that only works with rational people. The one person in my life who gives me the most grief I've tried standing up to several times, but they act like they're the victim and I'm being unfair and selfish when I do. What do you do then?
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:09:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The guy I said it too tried to guilt trip me as well. All you can do is stick with what you said.
I had an ex where this happened. Once I decided I had enough and once I was clear about what I would put up with and what I would not, it actually led to fewer arguments and fights.
Didn't save the relationship, though. Breaking up was the smartest thing we ever did as a couple.
I used to think that saying Yes to the boss and higher ups was just being a good employee. And good employees get promoted right?
You want to move up in the company right? And the saying "if you want to be a good leader, you must also be a good follower"
You have to show them that you really want it, right?
Then I would see others get promoted and treated better than me that were less hard working. And I used to wonder why. "I'll just work even harder!" So I did. But nothing changed. No pay raises, no more time off, no offers of other better positions in the company.
40 hours?! In the uk/Europe 40 hours is the maximum time for a full time job. Anything else must be overtime and voluntary.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:02:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Here it's the minimum time for a full time job. Overtime is often forced and unpaid with a lot of employers. The UK and Europe are better than the US in a lot of areas.
Work for a big company and there was a Division head who had been there forever, had retired and was brought back to run things as a consultant so he had zero fucks to give and shit on everyone. I was brought in to try and fix some of the issues we were having with our interdepartmental work. At about the 2 week mark, he tried throwing me under the bus for something he wanted done outside of process, which I accommodated, but someone on his team fucked up. I was not having that at all and replied to everyone in the email saying he doesn't get to have it both ways. The problem's his. I had never spoken to him, but he called me and I guarantee he was physically shaking as he unleashed a tirade of "how dare you" and the like. I got fired up and started unloading back and telling him why he was wrong. Then I told him exactly what the problem was in his department, exactly where the problem was in ours, and how to fix all of it. He calmed down and I figured that was it. Nope. My boss called me about an hour later and asked what happened with Bob. People from other departments have tried to get me fired before, to no avail, but he was really high up so I was a little freaked. I asked what he said and it turns out he called my boss, said I was the best person from our department he'd ever dealt with, and he demanded I move to corporate immediately and be their permanent liaison from our department. I work from home at the beach in Florida so that was never going to happen. After I spent some more time with that department I found out he was just a bully who was so used to getting his way he didn't respect anyone, but the people who told him no or that he was wrong. Still just a horrible way to approach work/life/anything, but was a great lesson for why it's important to stand up for yourself, particularly when someone is trying to blame you for something you didn't do. It's a better lesson for offering solutions and not just trying to defend yourself (or complaining in other situations) when dealing with issues.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:23:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm glad it worked out like this. I'd like to add that the opposite is also a common outcome where people who expect you to be passive to abuse or exploitation will often become more forceful when your react differently to their expectation when they would respect someone who hadn't behaved passively previously. The important thing to understand is that someone else's response to your behavior is not the only metric by which you can determine whether your behavior is right or not.
This realisation was a game changer for me and allowed me to begin to break my passivity. If someone is upset by you standing up for your rights, it is not you that did something wrong
That's what I think is so hilariously irrational. Did you really think there was no end to my accommodating. I was being generous, but now that you're blatantly taking advantage of my generosity I'm the bad guy of your story for saying, "no more". Now all those times I was helpful are unappreciated after I say no once. Almost makes you want to read Atlas Shrugged and shake your head yes in agreement.
The expectations you set are a very important part of how people percieve you.
I have a friend that used to be very giving and generous and would pick up extra rounds and all that when we were out, buy people tickets for shit and not bother them about paying him back quickly, all kinds of shit. He became known for it. Well, eventually when he decided to tighten the purse strings up a bit and stop hemmoraging money so he could save up to get a better house... all of a sudden he's a cheap asshole.
"What happened to [Name]? He's really selfish now."
No he's not. He's always been way more generous about giving than any of us, in fact he still is, he's just not a free shit vending machine anymore. It just seems like once you pigeonhole yourself into the role of always being that guy, you can no longer say "no" even once or people take it reaaally fuckin hard.
I kinda mentioned it in passing and people are starting to figure it out on their own, but I didn't really want to poke the bear.
This is a friend group I don't hang out with much anymore because I live 5 and half hours away from them now. It's not really my place to rattle up the politics.
kyew · 28 points · Posted at 19:09:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You might be doing them a favor by being the one who says it then, since you're further removed.
There's a friend who drives us around when we hangout because the other 3 (including myself) don't have a car yet. We're in the University, BTW.
He's always on time to pick us up. So, the last time we hung out, his dinner & movie ticket was shared by the rest of us : my initiative.
I didn't want him to feel being taken advantage of. He said that I was generous & was appreciative.
That's both the upside and the downside of it. By the point you're done being taking advantaged of in a relationship and the entitled asshats actually think that they're the victims, you actually kind of want them to think that. Looking on as they throw temper tantrums and cry about how unfair it all is can be surprisingly satisfying.
ManyPoo · 9 points · Posted at 19:33:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So the options are:
1) Never be a doormap
2) Be a doormat and then stop
3) Never stop being a doormat
2 might not be as good as 1, but it's better than 3.
CoAmon · 7 points · Posted at 20:00:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This reminds me of a friend I knew in the SCA. Not only was he generous with money, where he would buy other people's supplies like food and booze, he was also really generous with rides. Like, he would go several hours out of his way to pick up other faire folk and being them to the event. People used to be grateful, but at this point people just sort of expect it.
He's pretty miserable, but he can't bring himself to confront them about it because he's afraid that they won't continue being friends with him. The sad thing is that he might be right.
That's how you sift the mooches from the friends. Friends will understand that you have boundaries; mooches see boundaries as something personally offensive.
It was eye-opening for me when I was younger and finally started putting my foot down. The mooches faded out and the friends poked me and said, "about damned time you said 'no' once in a while."
It's completely rational. Other people can't read your mind and magically discern your intentions and wishes. They have to figure that out based on your actions, because that's literally the only thing they have to go off. If your actions are not indicative of your wishes and future intentions, then you are actively misleading people around you.
There's literally no one other than you that can create a precedence of what to expect from you. But obviously it's a lot easier on the ego to externalize the blame, rather than actually taking responsibility for the consequences of your own behaviour.
If your actions are not indicative of your wishes and future intentions, then you are actively misleading people around you.
There's literally no one other than you that can create a precedence of what to expect from you.
Yes, but it is undeniable that the other side is 100% at fault for being antsy. If someone had made a reputation of being generous, then suddenly stopped, something had obviously gave for that person. Whether they're fed up with you, can't afford to continue doing so, or just stopped being generous, it could never warrant the consequences that follow a "no." People aren't mind readers, but there cannot be so many dumb enough to not realize shitting on said person is not fitting for any possible conclusion reached. If said person is fed up with you, you're only worsening it. If said person is trying to save up, you're just being selfish and condemning someone trying to improve their situation. If they've stopped being generous, it's as simple as that, and is actually questionable you flocked to this person solely because of being generous.
Truly had no intention of commenting till I saw your ending:
But obviously it's a lot easier on the ego to externalize the blame, rather than actually taking responsibility for the consequences of your own behaviour.
If someone gives, regardless of how poor, I assume you wish for them to give till their death or suffer? Obviously, givers could draw a line, but how low are the standards you hold the offenders to not recognize the situation of a coworker(is obviously working, therefore not made of money and actively trading off their other desires to satisfy other with treats)?
[deleted] · 197 points · Posted at 17:38:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Edit: Apologies. Turns out that I was probably in the midst of a stroke while attempting to type out what I intended to say below. I'm doing much better now. No need to bring out your dead.
TLDR; Joined a startup. They promised me equity. Wasn't in writing. That's my fault. Every success was treated with a "good boy" back pat. And nothing else. Eventually I stopped being patient and asked them why in the world I wasn't an equity partner? They mentioned, yet again, that one time, when I woke up at 2am, in order to solve a complex problem, and how I wasn't living up to that standard anymore. In other words, if I dont want to work 60+ hours a week, including the middle of the night, then I dont deserve equity. Noped out of that situation quickly.
This happened to me. My wife and I decided to relocate. I found a job first. I moved up here and was alone for about 4 months while my wife found a position as well; along with selling the old house.
I was alone, and had a problem I couldn't solve that irked me. So at 2am, I woke up, modified an external library to do what we wanted, and checked it in.
My wife moved up, and now I wanted to go back to a 40 hour a week schedule. Oh how I was reminded of "what happened to the old you? You know, the guy who would stay up until 2am to solve a problem?" Wtf guys. You promised me equity. That didn't work out. So why should I give a fuck of providing more than 40 hours of service?
I guess, when he moved to his new place, he was alone as his wife was still closing the old house. So he had some time to himself and could still afford to think about work till late at night. Hence him doing some coding by 2am to solve so problems at work. Now that his wife is around, his colleagues are wondering what happened to the guy that codes at 2am.
He worked harder and longer hours before his wife joined him in a new location, because he had fuck all better to do.
His coworkers complained about him not working as hard when his wife moved to join him because he no longer had nothing to do.
_Ganon · 18 points · Posted at 18:16:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well it seems like there was some promise of equity, which didn't actually end up happening, and that's the reason why he stopped working >40 hour weeks. But the paragraph starts with how he wanted to go back to a 40 hour week because he wife finally moves to the new place, which goes with the story. So this whole equity thing just kind of came out of nowhere and the paragraph ends with him saying it was the equity thing ... dude just seems salty about not getting equity and had to work that in there somehow, but the point he's trying to make became confused due to the sudden mention of not getting promised equity.
I think he might have been referring to the library. People might not understand its DB related. I might be wrong though.
Vio_ · 9 points · Posted at 18:45:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
As someone not into computers, it took me a minute to realize he wasn't checking out something at his local library at 2 am.
_Ganon · 2 points · Posted at 19:25:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Speaking of paragraphs, your's could use less. Not every sentence needs to be on its own line, friend.
dr1fter · 1 points · Posted at 20:57:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You're generalizing an awful lot from n=2. If those two lines have nothing to do with each other, there's nothing wrong with keeping them separate. That's what paragraphs are for, after all.
TessHKM · 1 points · Posted at 19:50:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Probably not.
[deleted] · 6 points · Posted at 18:14:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think he's just bad at telling a story.
OP moved to new town, while his wife stayed in old town for about 4 months. Since OP was alone in the new town, he put in a lot of overtime at his work, an example of this being the time he woke up at 2AM to finish working on a problem at work.
Eventually, wife finishes up her business and moves to the new town with him, and he obviously now wants to go back to a 40hr/week schedule at work. They pester him about it, always bringing up the time he "stayed up until 2am to solve a problem"
He moves, he's alone. Has time. Works on project for work until/at 2am. Work notices. New Norm.
Wifes moves in with him. No more time. Wants 40 hour week again. Company expects worker who works at 2am because hes done it before.
Vio_ · 1 points · Posted at 18:47:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
He should have communicated his extra work plan ahead of time with his supervisor. That gives everyone the timeline on extra work and future expectations when he'd return to his normal working hours.
His second paragraphs: there was a coding problem for work that he realized he could solve in the middle of the night. So, he got up, solved it, and checked his code back in. At least on my past teams you may see notifications or feeds of when people check code in since you might be working on the same bit of the application.
So, he set a precedent for being a guy who works outside of normal hours, because he had a small period of his life where it didn't bother anyone that he was awake at abnormal times.
Dude moved, got a tech job. They promised him equity. His wife didn't move for another 4 months. So he had a lot of time to work hard at his job, part of which required work that he would suddenly solve with 'A-ha!' moments at night. Wife finally moved. He started to work more regular hours, and at some point he didn't get equity (for unknown reasons to us). The job complained.
"what happened to the old you? You know, the guy who would stay up until 2am to solve a problem?" Wtf guys.
It took me second to parse as well.
Basjaa · 2 points · Posted at 18:45:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yea lmao. I'm so confused
Vio_ · 1 points · Posted at 18:44:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think he became the go-to guy for 24 hour support while his wife was gone. Then his job didn't realize that it was a temp thing for him, and assumed he'd be on call forever. The guy should have talked to his boss about it as he was doing it. "I'm more than happy to do this for a month or two, but I can't do this after my wife moves up here with me."
That gives a reasonable expectation of when the extra help ends, shows he's an extra mile guy even for a short time, and gives him and his boss the window of when that'd stop.
If I understand the comment, the author was more flexible for his employer while his wife was away; once the wife was back, the commenter wanted to resume a more traditional timeframe, which made the employer balk.
This is why boundaries are important very early in any relationship.
Vio_ · 2 points · Posted at 18:41:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's because original boundaries usually don't shift, and when they do, people get angry. Once the precedent has been set for boundaries, people tend to think they'll last forever. Once those extra privileges are revoked, the abusers don't understand that they were overstepping their bounds in the firsts place, and think the privileges were always rights on their end.
I finally set some boundaries with a family member after almost a year of letting her interfere with my family's schedule and Home life. She flipped out, brought up a bunch of old arguments and we have barely spoken in weeks now.
How quickly it escalated from "Hey family member, maybe you should consider our schedule for once" to "I HATE YOU AND YOU ARE EVIL!!" Made my head Spin.
I just let my "friend" stay in my apartment while I was away this summer (for a greatly reduced rent from what I pay and asked for no bill money so she could save up to go back to school) and she left the place a mess and ruined all of my living room furniture with spilled wine and her bloody cat scratching up everything. She had the audacity to say "it wasn't that clean when I moved in, I cleaned for like an hour before I left!" Well- I cleaned for over four hours before she moved in to leave her a nice place and there was not only a swarm of fruit flies when I got back but also fucking CAT TURDS ON THE FLOOR. No good deed..
Sorry, been dying to vent this, thank you for the opportunity. I get walked all over in all aspects of my life, I'm finally getting fed up enough to quit taking it.
[deleted] · 55 points · Posted at 17:57:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's alright man. Nothing grinds my fucking gears more than people who don't take care of other peoples' stuff. My stuff is mine for a reason. By definition, you are not obligated to it and I can revoke your privileges at any time.
My possession that mostly falls under this rule is my car. I've stepped into far too many vehicles where I've had to kick BK and McDonald's wrappers just to get my foot room. You drive my car, you keep it clean and take care of it, or you don't get to drive my car anymore. No leaving trash, wrappers, or containers. You bring it in, you take it out. Period. End of story. Don't like it? Find another ride.
I even get antsy about my wife driving my car, and we're both on insurance for both cars. My car is my baby though, and I would be devastated if something happened to it that I didn't possibly have the chance to avoid.
Thank you, I mean--right though?? Especially a car, cars are expensive and it's hard enough to keep the value from depreciating without anyone trashing it. Painfully disrespectful.
I treat my vehicles as well as I can. My family treats theirs like shit. I've since learned they can't be trusted around my vehicles because they treat them like shit and get an attitude when I have a problem with it.
I hope you're not friends with her anymore. That's shitty behavior, plus she clearly doesn't respect your belongings/money or your time.
[deleted] · 16 points · Posted at 19:18:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ha! My mother is a hoarder (and pretty worthless in general), and she came to my apartment once and started leaving a mess. I said "listen, you're gonna have to throw your trash away and pick all those cigarette butts up out of my yard." Instead of apologizing, she said "you have pine cones in your yard!" What?
I fail to see the relation between picking up cigarette butts out of your yard to "you have pine cones in your yard" did she think that the yard is the common denominator in the conversation?
[deleted] · 6 points · Posted at 20:36:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I guess so? Because the yard was littered with pine cones already, her 45 cigarette butts weren't a problem
I had a friend that was living alone at his parents house (they were working in China) but was unemployed and just lost his dog. We were both going through some rough stuff. I figured we could each use the companionship and told him he could move in to my spare room for free. There were issues but they didn't really bother me. He was messy but kept it to his room; that's fine. He'd use my pots and pans from time to time (and not clean them), but again, no big deal. Found a new job and was putting money in the bank. Figured he'd start paying rent soon. Fast forward about 3 months and his parents inform him they're moving back to the states, but they need a car. He has two... an S2000 and an Acura. He's giving them the Acura and plans to sell the S2000 and buy a daily driver (S2K is useless in the winter). Buys a 500hp fucking Cadillac CTS for 15k. Does NOT sell the S2000 (still has it to this day) and STILL doesn't even THINK to pay me any rent money. MAYBE I'd be fine with it if he actually did ANYTHING around the apartment other than leave dirty dishes and destroy my George Forman by burning chicken and bread on it because he walked away and was too busy Facebooking to remember to take it off. Kicked him out not long after the car incident to help another friend that actually appreciated the gesture, paid rent (only $300), and helped clean from time to time.
Apkoha · 8 points · Posted at 19:45:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
CAT TURDS ON THE FLOOR.
what a piece of shit and she shouldn't have an animal. Cats not going to shit on the floor unless the litter box isn't clean meaning she does a piss poor fucking job of looking after her animal. Poor fucking cat. Bitch deserve a cunt punch.
I've living long enough to learn some disillusioning truths that have forced me to create some new rules:
1. Never let anybody borrow something from you that you want back, and that includes money.
2. Never let anybody "house-sit" your home for more than a few days when you're away, unless you've seen their home, and know they are reasonably neat people.
2a. Never let them bring their pet, unless you know it personally, and know that it's house-broken, and not destructive.
3. Never co-sign a loan for anybody...ever.
4. If you loan your car to somebody, make sure the parameters are clear before s/he takes it, i.e: you expect it back with a full tank of gas.
5. If you let somebody stay in your house while you're there (because they have no place else), make sure they know they're expected to contribute their portion of the grocery money if they're expecting meals, and sweat (to clean), and that they're welcome to stay "X" days or weeks, not indefinitely. You can always re-evaluate at the end of "X," if you want to extend their stay.
Before anyone stays at my place I tell them this rule:
If you remove an item from it's original location, put it back there in same place after your are done, not later and if possible put it back in a better position. Eg: You eat my leftover from container, the least you can do is clean the container and put it in drying rack. But at the same time dont bother half assing it.
I had a guest one time that cleaned tableware without actually scrubbing, I mean i can see the white leftover when it dried. I just started doing it in from of them again and thankfully they got the hint
I feel for you. A close friend IMO would not do that, I would expect it from family but a close friend, not really.
I would feel violated, angry and vengeful. Good, caring people like yourself I guess move on.
It's never too late. Each time people walk over you, you allow them. When people are going too far, just say no. When you want to say no, just do it. You have the right like everybody else. It will be a struggle in the beginning, but you'll get it right. It's a mindset more than anything else.
I don't get it, please help thanks.
Is it about chest size?
xJAAx · 18 points · Posted at 17:29:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's pretty much saying that even if you bend over backwards for some people and do everything you can even if it hurts you doing so, they will still complain that is isn't good enough for them. I.e. that you are not flat enough for them and all their wants.
someone inconsiderate enough to take advantage of what you offer them (i.e. walk all over you) will be inconsiderate enough to complain you are not sufficiently providing/yielding to them.
You're not dumb or stupid! You shouldn't talk about yourself like that, even in jest. Not letting people treat you badly starts by not treating yourself badly.
You are a beautiful person, I hope you have a great day! :)
Aleahj · 18 points · Posted at 17:17:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Wow. This is my current work life. But as the junior team member, how do I stop being a door mat? I've been told it's my turn to shovel shit because everyone does at first.
[deleted] · 12 points · Posted at 17:41:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I suppose it depends on why you're shoveling shit. You don't say what you do.
There can be virtue in it. If you're getting your hands in lots of different parts of the business it can be a valuable learning experience. Even If its just a heavy work load it's a good way to build your skills.
If shoveling shit is the job description you can't really complain about it. Take the experience you've gained and start job hunting.
If you've got coworkers pushing off their work on you cause your the new guy just tell them no.
You don't have to say yes to everything. Understand what your job is. Understand what will help you advance. Don't waist your energy on anything else.
That's kinda the way it is a lot of work places. Don't let it discourage you from doing your best and keeping a good attitude. I was in that position for a few years and I busted my ars to outwork everyone. Then when one of the bosses retired they offered me his job and I became the boss.
I feel like I have to re-learn this every time I make a new friend. I don't make new friends often, but I'm so trusting I give everyone the benefit of the doubt. And then a few months in I will catch them in a lie or I'll notice that they've been using me. I just had a "good friend" get mad at me for asking her to watch my kids for a few hours so we could attend a wedding. I've watched her kid 10 or 15 times in the last year, always with very short notice. Always for free. Several times while I was working (from home) and at least once when I was so sick I could barely get off the couch. My "friend" got hit by a truck (going slow speed) about a month ago. No physical injuries other than she was sore. But she kept inviting me out and telling me she was healing. So I asked her to return the favour and now I'm an asshole because her injuries are suddenly far worse than she ever mentioned. So we had to ask my MIL who has stage 4 cancer... and she was happy to help. I'm honestly considering not being friends with that lady anymore.
Early in my relationship I let my girlfriend make lots of decisions on things we did and ate because I really didn't care.
Now when I say I don't want to do something in particular she gets upset and says "why are you so grumpy?" It's like I'm not, I'm just finally giving my opinion on things.
The key is to find the balance between confidence and arrogance in your decisions and how you present yourself.
The "grumpy" context she is seeing may just be arrogance showing through stronger than your confidence (probably because it sounds like you just discovered yourself and the power within).
You will feel the power even more if you learn to control it to your benefit for the particular situation.
[deleted] · 12 points · Posted at 17:39:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Have you ever tried walking on someone? It's not as easy as you think! People are soft and squishy. Good footing is hard to come by when you're walking on people.
Not to take away from your excellent point, but it tickles me that someone answers a post about something 90% of people don't understand, and then everyone agrees wholeheartedly. XD
Classic Reddit.
[deleted] · 7 points · Posted at 17:16:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you let people walk all over you then they will start stamping out any bumps they see.
I suggest you say No every chance you get. Just for a week or so. Also, you are probably the type of person to smile in conversation with new people for no obvious reason, no joke said etc. Try not smiling. Again just for a week, you will learn a lot.
patzw · 2 points · Posted at 17:32:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If i had money I'd give you gold for this. Even while knowing this on some level, I don't think it ever really hit me until reading it in your words...
I feel like I've learned this so many times in my life already. But every time I make a new friend I seem to forget and the cycle starts all over again.
Its one of those things that you will not be immediately socially rewarded for but something that you must do, standing up for yourself. In the longer term you will of course have people's respect.
In this situation with my girlfriend (in some ways) and my best friend, don't want to end anything but everytime I say something they'll tell me it's always something with me or that I'm killing their vibe.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:56:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is me right now. My boss called crying that his cat died and if I could come work in 30 minutes for the whole day. And then for the three days after, because they're so devastated about it. When my grandmother died, I couldn't take a day off, because he had a breakfasy for easter somewhere.
This. I don't think he'd ever admit it, or maybe he doesn't even realize it himself, but I think this is what happened with my ex. I gave so much of myself in that relationship, too much, and I was too forgiving because I truly thought that's how you're supposed to be in love. But ultimately I think he just lost respect for me. It's like he wanted someone who was going to tell him no, just so that it could feel like a challenge.
"He’s going to marry the first girl he lays, and she’s going to treat him like shit, because you can’t respect somebody that kisses your ass." -Ferris Bueller.
How can you tell whether you're standing up for yourself or just being rude/selfish about something? Especially when the people who've been walking over you react the same way to either, and/or are your boss?
FIAT-based currencies and reserve-based lending do literally create money out of thin air, and create a debt that can only ever be paid back by future lending, creating an infinite cycle of debt. Each dollar created is allowed to be lent out several times, and each loan can have potentially infinite derivatives created upon it.
Modern financial systems are just a very long, drawn-out ponzi scheme that relies on countries in debt finding wealth by stealing it from other countries, particularly developing or third-world ones. Put up a dictator, stage your own coup against that dictator you installed, cause chaos and potentially war, secure the main city centres and install a new government that is friendly with international banks and willing to take a loan to rebuild the country, send in international conglomerates (from Haliburton at first to McDonalds, Walmart etc) to take the contracts to rebuild and enslave the workers with micro-loans and permanent debt-servitude (pushing them towards cheap labour and abusing their countries resources), and you have a slave country that is now pumping dollars into your "quasi-Empire" (which doesn't actually exist anywhere, it's international and in all major financial city centres).
Debt-based currencies literally turn countries into parasite-controlled bullies hustling other countries just trying to make it by. The US has been the military arm of this "invisible Roman empire" for the last hundred years at least. The people don't want to, but they always get tricked into doing it or not given a true democratic choice and they can't figure out how to stop. The Federal Reserve, Bank of International Settlements, and World Bank are truly untouchable.
I think the singularity moment is fast approaching concerning production and fiat currency. We are just about to be in an age where one man who owns a factory can produce things with no human involvement at all. Once this happens en masse, only a few people will own "capital production" and be able to produce whatever they want without employing a single person (and, thus, no fiat currency being injected downward).
What happens to the workers/low class when the company producing food no longer has to pay anyone to produce it? Who will buy these mass produced items when all the currency is hoarded upwards?
[deleted] · 16 points · Posted at 19:25:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I was being somewhat facetious, but when you look into it, our monetary system is pretty scammy. Markets are often manipulated. The way humans derive and assign value can be pretty arbitrary and fleeting. The rich have a much easier time getting richer than the poor do. You can see a pyramid scheme-like structure when it comes to the wealthy ruling class.
The value of money may be arbitrary but in the short run it is a contract that represents a unit of economic work that can be traded for goods and services with roughly the same value / unit of currency as the work you had to do to obtain the currency. It works out. The manipulation and printing kill currency. Too bad we don't have a choice but to work for the specific currency that the government tells us to work for.
Thats actually pretty low-tech, if I understand correctly.
Sound is just pressure waves caused by stuff vibrating.
Vibration means moving back and forth, so the purpose of a vinyl record is to shake the needle in tiny motions that produce a certain sound. From there it's just about amplifying that sound so people can hear.
kenriko · 20 points · Posted at 18:47:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But hearing is just vibrating another speaker in your ear which vibrates a bone which hits another bone and there are these little hairs that the nerves pick up signals from which your brain then processes as sound. Like WTF. Nature u crazy.
We don't really know. We can describe the effect we observe but we're not quite sure what it is.
Edit: Gravitational waves would be ripples in the spacetime field caused by gravity. Doesn't mean gravity is a wave. Its probably a field. Similar to the higgs boson field that gives particles mass, gravitons would give the particles gravity.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 20:15:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not sure if you're saying gravitational waves mean gravity is a wave or not, but that's like saying water is a wave because the ocean has waves.
Still thanks for linking it for those who haven't seen it. The universe is a neat place and I think more people should be interested in understanding what we think we know so far.
It blew my mind when I first heard the music from a record with no speaker attached(although it was obviously really quiet). I always thought it was encoded somehow, but nope.
evn0 · 6 points · Posted at 19:14:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Vinyl works exactly like a speaker works. If you could blow up the groove to take up the entire range that your speaker moves back and forth while operating, you'd see the groove and the position of the speaker line up.
[deleted] · 8 points · Posted at 17:51:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And its not at the same time, its a changing shape over time. The changing shapes all added together are the overall shape of all the frequencies at that point in time if you add them all together.
'Tis what the Fourier Transform is based on. You can take any complex waveform shape (continous waveform) and break it down into its individual frequencies that were used to create the wave shape in the first place.
Electronic (active) crossovers alleviate the problems that are introduced with standard passive crossovers. The only downside is that you need a dedicated amplifier for each driver, which can get quite expensive.
This took me forever to get. I play guitar and I spent soooo long trying to grasp how a single speaker could replicate the sounds coming off multiple strings plus the extra sounds from effects pedals. It was a huge lightbulb moment when I finally understood that it all comes out as one insanely-complicated waveform rather than a bunch of simple ones.
It's actually one of the coolest things about the human brain, that it's able to reverse-engineer the sonic mush coming into your ear and recognize the constituent parts it was originally made of. This is how you can understand someone talking when there's background noise - your brain recognizes certain parts of that waveform are coming from a human voice and "prioritizes" those parts so you can pick out the words.
Coincidentally I have a neurological condition where my brain doesn't do that as well as it should - I have severe difficulty understanding people when there's background noise because my brain sucks at pulling apart that complicated wave. It makes going to concerts less enjoyable too; everything just sounds like an indistinguishable roar at high volume :/
I thought they could make multiple waves at a time. So, the speaker may go across a 10mm distance every second, while doing a 1mm, shorter oscillation, every 1/10 of a second, and an even smaller 0.1mm oscillation every 1/100 of a second (using arbitrary numbers). Why couldn't speakers do this? Do you have specific knowledge that they make a combined waveform? How would that not just sound like a dumb jumble?
The distinction you're trying to make is a bit arbitrary, because the complex waveform is literally the same as the sum of it's simple parts. I'm on mobile or I'd link it, but if you're interested in reading about the mathematics of why this is true I highly recommend googling about the Fourier transform. Reading about the way dipole speakers generate their sounds might also be up your alley.
The distinct frequencies are scaled and added together to form a single waveform. Here is a simplified example of the waveform superposition of two frequencies.
gyroda · 6 points · Posted at 19:04:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's worth noting that any arbitrary wave can be broken down into those simpler sine waves.
Though you might need an infinite number of them to get it perfect....
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 19:10:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Modern technology is all basically black magic. Imagine telling someone 200 years ago that you have a tiny metal and glass rectangle in your pocket that can light up and use invisible rays of light to connect to a bank of machinery that, using the states of how the smallest things our universe can make and some information from a metal box in the sky that is constantly falling sideways with some light readers, can send these invisible light rays back to your rectangle, and give you a detailed look at the roadmap to the next town over, which you will then follow with your small-explosion-powered metal carriage.
Or, that you use GPS on your phone to drive to another town (I hope that it was accurate enough lol, not a scientist)
Flethan · 2 points · Posted at 18:56:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You only need one ear to hear several sounds at one.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:19:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
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Flethan · 2 points · Posted at 19:39:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
While the hair cells may be differ slightly in the range of pitch the amplify and detect, each one is fundamentally the same and you could still 'hear' a variety of sounds together with only one hair cell. (Although it might be very quiet since your brain is usually getting signals from thousands of cells).
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:05:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
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Flethan · 1 points · Posted at 20:14:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Reading about it was actually very interesting. It's pretty amazing how well our body had perfected using eletrical cells and signals.
kaosf · 2 points · Posted at 19:14:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Or how it can produce any human dialogue. Like how is a vibrating flap of rubber able to say "fuck"? That shit boggles my mind.
RiMiBe · 1 points · Posted at 18:48:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The real magic is not that the speaker can produce it, but that your ear can then pull them all out again.
evn0 · 1 points · Posted at 19:13:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The same way your eardrum creates a singular sound message to your brain out of all the frequencies hitting it despite being one piece of skin. A speaker is, to simplify things greatly, basically mimicking the movement your eardrum needs to make to near that specific set of sounds/timbres. We just "reverse" the process to make it broadcast the sound to you.
I had a rant in a thread awhile ago about how calling basic technological achievements magic is basically just throwing in the towel intellectually and wholey wholly contributing to the embrace of ignorance seen in the modern world.. so yeah, don't do that.
Be careful not to fall while climbing up onto your high horse, dick.
Some things just don't make sense to me, and that's ok. I'm a musician, so I know how to make music and I understand music itself pretty damn well. However, no matter how much I read up and research on how the fuck a speaker works, it doesn't click with me...and that's fine.
Calling it voodoo magic is obviously a joke, and "wholey" is not a word. Please, don't throw in the towel on your grammar yet because that would contribute to the embrace of ignorance seen in the modern world.
I never said it wasn't okay to not understand some topic. Clearly there are too many fields for any one person to grasp them all at even the most basic level. However, it does not necessarily follow that we must equate those fields to something intangible and unable to understood.
Of course you were joking, I am simply asserting my belief that such off hand remarks are deleterious. An individual who regularly encounters such language could easily reach the conclusion that "it is too complicated for me to even try to comprehend, so I won't." A particularly terrible outcome for an individual avoiding seemingly confusing topics is reaching the conclusion that this understanding is being purposely obfuscated in order to oppress them. (This is one of the issues with climate change deniers, some of which will claim that the science is purposefully confusing in order to deceive the layperson.)
You can obviously speak however you prefer, and I was not trying to insult you, but I was trying to point out that your language has the potential to promote intellectual apathy.
Geez, buddy, you should really read your comment back to yourself. You're dangerously close to r/iamverysmart territory with all this sesquipedalianism and high horse attitude about intellectualism.
You're digging the hole further into r/iamverysmart land.
I already made my view known, and it doesn't need further expounding. However, you've been pretty pompous from the start, so I have no problem attacking that as well.
The problem is that sound is visualized typically in a time waveform. I think if it were represented in the frequency domain it becomes much more clear
They take all the sounds you hear and layer them together to make one super-sound. It's the same way your ears work -- you only have one eardrum (per ear, at least), so you can only really hear one sound at a time. Your ear hears the super-sound that is all the sounds combined, and then your brain filters the layered super-sound you hear. This is how you can focus on the person sitting in front of you at the coffee shop. In the same way, the speakers play the super-sound of all the instruments together and your brain filters it out so you can focus on just the trumpets.
I actually think most people don't understand the opposite of this. Most people get that a speaker produces a single waveform that we interpret as sound. What's more complex to understand is what you just stated: that the waveform is actually a superposition of many frequencies.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:52:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Superposition principle. It's actually the simplest way for things to work. If the speaker couldn't produce distinct frequencies (within the range of its capability), on what basis would it not be able to do that?
As a human being used to thinking in terms of "tasks" that have to be "juggled", it seems like the speaker is pulling off something hard; but it's actually the most sensible way for the physical world to work.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:16:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If I put a bunch of letter blocks in your toy box, the box doesn't care that there's an A next to a B. When you empty out the toy box, your ears are just like you. They can take any letter out of the box and see it as a separate letter, even though they were all in the same box. The box is stupid. It doesn't know anything about the blocks. It just knows how to hold them.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:59:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
(like most electronic devices) they work so quickly that they can reproduce audible frequencies by stringing thousands of individual amplitudes together. In the case of playing back a recording, the microphone essentially records the air pressure thousands of times a second, and then the speaker moves to reproduce the same air pressures at that speed in that order.
I don't get how 1s and 0s are the building block for me getting my arse handed to me by 13year olds online. Like, I get logic and gates and all that. How it becomes this whole world in my monitor. Or how electricity becomes tv. Or phones. How does someone's voice travel in almost real time invisibly through the air to tell me to go fuck myself. Or the same soinds, broadcast in cinemas around the world. How is that red, or that explosion recording, written in magetised confetti and then reproduced exactly the same someplace else. It's a mind blowing, god-damn miracle.
icroak · 0 points · Posted at 19:50:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's easier if you picture two extremes. Picture a 1Hz tone. The speaker cone will be extending and retracting once per second. Now imagine the cone vibrating 1000 times per second. The speaker cone will be buzzing at the same time it's extending and retracting. You'll hear the 1kHz tone. You won't hear the 1 Hz tone since that's below human hearing.
Electrical engineering is more magic than science to me. I get that it's all about completing and interrupting circuits, but the math, design, components, and theory behind it make my head hurt.
[deleted] · 15 points · Posted at 19:09:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I've been in school for it for nearly 2 years and am convinced it really is magic. Or aliens
A transistor is basically a switch that can be turned on and off using electricity. This may not seem super important, but it allows Electrical Engineers's (and, by extension, computers) to say "if". "If this is on, then send (or don't send) power here". The uses of this are up to the imagination.
Physically, a transistor is just three wafers of material (usually silicon) "doped" with differently charged material (such as Gallium or Phosphorous). The charge gradient allows current to flow only when current is applied to a specific side of the wafer sandwich.
Except that just barely scratches the surface of what a transistor is. A switch is just one of many configurations a transitor can be set as. A transistor is also an amplifier and there is allt types of black magic involved in that and it is a very important part of why transitors are important. Saying that a transistor is basically just a switch is a huge disservice to an incredible device and does indeed showcase some ignorance of how they actually work.
I was under the impression it was kinda like binary code where theres only on or off but you can use a large amount of them, can you recommend some further reading?
Think of a transistor more like a water faucet. Yes, you can have on and off states, but you can also use the knob to adjust flow rate.
lorzore · 1 points · Posted at 20:11:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is a basic amplifier circuit It may seem complicated, don't worry about it. Let's just say it amplifies 10 times so when you put in 0.1V you will get 1V out and with 0.2V in 2V out. this would not be possible if the transistor was just a simple on/off switch.
A college textbook and an EE degree? The on/off binary description people get is a very simplified version of just one aspect. It's closest to what programmers are concerned with so it tends to be latched on to as the description of how they work. This site seems to have pretty good descriptions but it is important not to just stop after reading the transistor equations. Their versatility comes from the many unintuitive circuit topologies that can transform how the circuit works. So from there you would want to move on to transistor biasing and various forms of amplifiers and feedback topologies but at that point, you really need to be able to do the math which in turn relies on a more complete knowledge of electrical circuits.
In this context, you can generally assume EE = Electrical Engineer, ME = Mechanical Engineer, context is key. If we were talking completing reactions instead of completing circuits, we'd be talking CE's (Chemical Engineers) and ME might be Materials Science Engineer. Most of my colleagues choose to say MechE , ChemE, etc. When discussing in front of non-engineers for this reason
Calling it a switch is for idiots that can't count higher than one. It's more like a resistor that can transfer electrical charge across a resistor. Like a sink faucet.
Yeah... most of these replies actually attempt to explain the thing that people don't understand. I'm wondering if the OP just said "transistors" in the hopes that someone would explain them to him.
[deleted] · 8 points · Posted at 19:10:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So you take two types of materials. Make a sandwich with a thin piece of cheese in the middle. Now these materials will not let a small voltage pass through. You can think of voltage as a sort of electrical pressure.
If you up the voltage(to the cheese) you get to a point where the pressure is enough to make the small sliver of cheese conductive, and at that point the 2 outsides pieces are connected together. You just turned a switch from off to on. Now combine billions of them together and you can do complex logic
Elkazan · 2 points · Posted at 19:16:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That sounds more like a diode than a transistor, unless you're applying voltage to the "cheese".
[deleted] · 6 points · Posted at 19:17:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Indeed, I meant to imply youre giving the voltage to the cheese slice. Some nice fried cheddar
Unless you add at least one more terminal, that's not a transistor analogy.
Edit: Misunderstood the description at first. Still, a strange analogy for a transistor, and it doesn't explain why the bulk of the current would flow between the two non-cheese terminal and not to the cheese terminal.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 20:08:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Err yes it is? 2 outside pieces, one inside. Thats 3 connections.
Fair enough. I misunderstood your description at first. But still, you say that the "cheese" becomes conductive. In your analogy, why wouldn't currently flow into/out of the terminal connected to the cheese.
You're the second person to try to explain how bipolar transistor work and it baffles me since they're so much more complicated than MOSFETs, requiring at least a basic understanding of quantum mechanics, recombination lifetimes, etc. to grasp. Not to mention they're much less common than MOSFETs in practice.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 20:26:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
They do not require an understanding of quantum mechanics to dumb down an analogy. I mean the guy clearly didn't want a in depth scientific description or he wouldn't ask for it to be explained for stupid people, he'd look up the wiki article on semi conductors and doping and blah blah
I also didn't mention how the signal on the cheese can act as an amplifier either. Cause it was supposed to be a dumb explanation. What baffles me is that you're taking this seriously when we're responding to "explain for the stupid"
A transistor is an electronic device that allows that has three pins - collector (C), base (B), and emitter (E). The current from B to E for an N type transistor controls the current from C to E. In simple terms of ON and OFF, let's say C is always ON, when B is OFF, E is OFF. But when B is ON, E connects to C and is also ON. You can connect these transistors together to make logical statements with two inputs, such as AND - which gives an ON output only if both inputs are ON, and OR - which gives an ON output if either or both of the inputs are ON. These statements chained together can form complex decision trees that can respond to user input. Pretty much every electrical device you ever have or will use functions almost entirely on transistor networks. GPU, CPU, RAM, all just a shitload of transistors chained together in specific ways that respond to inputs (Programs, user inputs, environment, etc) in predefined ways.
A transistor is a switch that can be turned on and off by another switch just like it. Depending on how you put the switches together, you can make them do different things. If you set them up to do a bunch of different things in the right order, you get a computer.
As I understand it, a transistor effectively amplifies a signal if the signal is above a certain trigger size, but it effectively acts as a switch in modern devices. 1 if the signal it's being given is large and so the output is even larger, and 0 if the signal is small and so the output is small.
Elkazan · 4 points · Posted at 19:22:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In modern digital devices, transistors do indeed operate in either "saturated" or "cutoff" mode, which is how EEs call the completely-on and completely-off regimes.
Some devices, however, most importantly in the audio world, make use of a transistor's dynamic range where the output is an amplified version of the input. For audio, a designer must ensure never to let the input (no matter what it is) force the transistor into saturated or cutoff regimes, as this will create hearable artifacts in the amplifier output (such as distortion, overtones, clipping, etc)
I'll try my hand at this since, imo, the other description are either woefully incomplete or somewhat misleading.
There are several types of transistors whose behavior depends on various physical properties. But, the most basic idea is that a transistor is an electrical element that has three connections, or terminals. Let's call them A, B, and C. Terminal A is insulated from the other two, but the voltage between A and B determine the conductivity between C and B. It's analogous to how a water faucet valve controls the rate of flow of water coming out of the faucet. Water pressure would be like the voltage between C and B, whereas the number of turns of the knob would be the voltage between A and B.
From this you can imagine treating the faucet as a switch, where the water is either flowing or not. Or you can treat it as more continuous with varying rates of flow, etc. The former would be your digital circuits and the latter would be your analog circuits.
Foxkilt · 11 points · Posted at 19:02:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Understanding the physics behind it (and the math necessary to understand the physics) takes basically a BSc (and even when you are able to say what's happening it will take some time for that to sink in). Not surprising that most people do not.
Statek · 1 points · Posted at 19:26:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, but the basics are simple. There's a piece of silicon between two pieces of wire that let's you connect or disconnect them if it's given power or not.
I still struggle with my switch at home. It has 4 switches and they all control 1 light. I wanted to replace them with some smart switches, but it got complicated.
It's not as hard as you think. If there different brightness settings then it's just resistors. Most likely though one goes to the top lights one to bottom, one for the fan etc.
It had something to do with traveler wires and then the GE smart switch that I wanted to use required some kind of special wiring for traveler wires or something because it's OK if a normal switch doesn't have constant current to it, but if a smart switch doesn't have current then it no-workies.
It was pretty confusing. I'm sure I could have figured it out, but I wound up just putting in smart light bulbs instead.
You said a light switch is single pole single throw. While those do exist, there are also many other types of light switches. Therefore, your statement was an oversimplification.
lorzore · 2 points · Posted at 19:59:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not really transistors can be used to make amplifiers because it's not just a simple on of switch, like this
pta2002 · 1 points · Posted at 20:12:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oh, didn't know that! Cool.
However, I think the light switch thing is still a useful analogy given that it's what you often use them for.
lorzore · 2 points · Posted at 20:15:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That is true but might give the wrong impression on what a transistor actual does further giving in to the what 90% of people don't know, however with transistors I'm not even sure if 1% of the population knows what a transistor does.
It'd be like a light dimmer switch with modes/areas of operation that you control by changing the current in the wire that passes next to it, or something like that.
pta2002 · 1 points · Posted at 19:46:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
BJT or MOSFET, but I'm pretty sure it's still basically the same principle in a vacuum tube or any non-exotic transistor. It's always a matter of modulating one current with another, but with useful (non-linear) modes of operation.
efskap · 3 points · Posted at 18:32:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No, it's more like a faucet. A relay is an if/then/else.
Foxkilt · 2 points · Posted at 19:01:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's just cheating. The hard part with transistors is when you start considering the non-saturated regions.
"whenever you have problems with you code, remember that a CPU is basically a rock we tricked into thinking." ~some Meme, i think.
Regarding your comment: The actual mechanics on a electron + Atom level are super difficult to understand. I watched a lot of youtube videos, all trying to describe the same thing. this is the best one i found. after that i finally understood it (a little bit)
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:36:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And they're literally in everything! But it's also not surprising how few people know what a transistor is or does. A lot of people don't care how something works, just that it does work.
I think it was the transistor that wasn't invented in the Fallout games universe. Led to people using a bunch of crappy technology and advancing in strange ways, and running out of resources and ending society. Maybe it was just a theory.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:47:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Doesn't really matter unless you are an electrical engineer.
Reddit, at this time, has superscripts but not subscripts.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 18:58:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Lallner · 6 points · Posted at 19:03:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Right - I get the joke. I'm just pointing out that if you try to shorten Dihydrogen Monoxide with it's chemical formula, it would not be DHMO, but H2O, which kind of let's the cat out of the bag, so to speak. So, one ought not shorten the chemical to its formula to keep the integrity of the joke.
[deleted] · -7 points · Posted at 18:16:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Bro, you can say water,
[deleted] · 6 points · Posted at 18:24:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Strictly speaking being human hasn't been observed to result in death often enough for statistical confidence that life is always fatal. (only 93.15% of humans who've ever lived have died)
I'm hoping to show the Dihydrogen Monoxide website to my fourth graders this year to teach them that a) correlation =/= causation and b) you need to know how to identify reputable sources vs. non-reputable sources.
There are still people alive today that have had dihydrogen monoxide, so you'll have to wait and see if they die before you say EVERYONE who does will.
Well, anecdotes state that with a bit of practice you can make the colostomy bag give a fart noise, and the stench is hellacious, so there is a small consolation.
Considering the fact that everybody poops, and the sound of your asscheeks rubbing together produces the "Fart" noise. My guess would be that everybody at one point or another farts.
reminds of the joke about someone clapping at a rate of 1 per second, and saying, every time I clap my hands, a child dies of starvation. Someone in the audience says, stop clapping then.
A man goes to the doctor, he says "Doctor, it hurts when I raise my arm like this." And then he raises his arm. The doctor says "Then don't raise your arm like that!"
I imagine it's people with some physical weakness. The elderly, very young children, or the handicapped.
[deleted] · 22 points · Posted at 15:15:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The great thing about this site is that it has a second layer of learning: stats are bullcrap.
The data points don't actually even correlate beyond a positive/negative trend. Then the scale of one stat is changed to more closely match the other. For example, the "cheese consumption vs people injured from being tangled by sheets" pairing uses .5 lbs increments for cheese and 200 increments for people. Had the exact same data been presented with say, 1lb increments of cheese and 100 increments of people, the data would look completely different
What if producing cheese was extremely dangerous and 1 lb of cheese came at the cost of 400 lives on average? While obviously that's an absurd example, and obviously you can skew data to represent correlation more prominently than it exists, there can be a legitimate reason to have two different scales to show a correlation. To remain objectice, it should just be made clear to everybody that they are on different scales and why that's the case.
I like to find (obviously not accurate) excuses for correlation on that website. Like maybe pizza is the food of choice for engineering graduation parties. The more graduations, the more pizza and therefore mozzarella cheese consumed.
"Correlation doesn't imply causation" means that just correlation alone is not enough to prove that there is causation. So if someone just shows correlation and then based on only that says that there is causation, then it is valid to refute that by stating "Correlation doesn't imply causation".
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 21:43:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's too much work for people who care most about simply appearing intelligent. It's much easier to repeat something one doesn't understand to try to impress people.
You in your second sentence essentially stated that you need more than correlation to show causation, hence your second statement contradicts your first statement.
My first statement was that correlation can imply causation. I am using imply to mean that correlation provides some evidence for causation, but in order to make a conclusion about causation, you need to examine all the evidence. I'm not saying anything that your average statistician would disagree with
Although I think the reddit hivemind sometimes takes 'correlation is not causation' to mean 'correlation is completely meaningless' when that's not the case
But when you're looking for causation, correlation can tell you where to look first...
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 20:04:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
From my time on Reddit, I'd say the opposite is true:
90% of Redditors don't understand that "correlation doesn't equal causation" is not some profoundly powerful magic wand that instantly dismisses the results or conclusions from scientific studies.
It's only a valid criticism of a study if the authors of the study made the mistake of confusing correlation with causation. From my experience, very few scientists do this. Exceedingly few.
Also, correlations are perfectly valid things to report in scientific studies. Often, they're the things that we're looking for.
812many · 1 points · Posted at 18:52:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The pirates are all based out of Somalia, and the navy isn't landing there. They can discourage it via patrols, but the only way to eliminate it is to eliminate the source, and no one is working on the source.
Correlation: An observed relationship between two quantitative (numerical) variables (things you can measure), e.g. during months with more ice cream sales, there are also more drownings. Technically correlation actually refers to the numerical "r" value which tells you how strongly two variables are related.
Causation: With the above correlation, you probably would not see a decrease in drowning deaths if you banned ice cream sales. That is because selling ice cream isn't what causes drowning, it's just that more people swim in the summer, and more people buy ice cream in the summer. Just because you can measure a relationship, doesn't mean that one variable causes the other.
However, it does mean that you should be looking for why the two variables are related, and it is possible that one causes the other. You just can't conclude it for sure.
So the problem with this is that of the people who know this, 99% don't understand that it's bullshit.
It's a short statement meant to remind people not to assume correlation implies causation. However, causality is a huge topic. You have Humean causality, mechanical causality (a la Nancy Cartwright), economic causality (e.g. Kevin Hoover), Bayesian interpretations of causality, as well as other musings that creep into social and natural sciences. Hell technically Humean causality can be summarized as correlations where one event (cause) temporally precedes another (effect) and that they are contiguous.
Causality can often be reduced to correlations depending on the context.
Source: PhD with a concentration in philosophy of science and the social sciences
People misunderstanding this rule is a bit of a pet peeve of mine, so I'm going to clarify:
Correlation alone does not imply causation.
When people reduce this to correlation =/= causation, it makes it seem like inductive arguments are invalid, which is not good because the vast majority of research science is based on inductive arguments.
So a correlation between X and Y certainly can imply that X causes Y, if you have sufficient reason to believe that there is a relationship between X and Y.
For instance: I fill a bowl in my bathroom with cat food every morning. Some mornings, I sleep in later than usual, and on these mornings my cat tends to follow me around meowing incessantly. If I took the "correlation=/=causation" argument literally, it would be improper for me to conclude that my cat follows me around because he expects food that he hasn't gotten yet, even though that is clearly what's happening here.
The missing piece of data, the extant relationship between the correlated elements which allows me to imply causality (though clearly a more rigorous test with a larger sample size is needed to make the results publishable), is the knowledge that the cat food in that bowl is my cat's primary source of food, and he needs to eat that food to live.
That's how inductive reasoning works: find two correlated elements and try to see if there's a relationship between them which would allow you to assume that the relationship is causal in some way. If, after a test, it turns out the relationship isn't causal, rinse and repeat until you are more or less sure (p>.01) that the relationship is causal.
My first year teaching, I spent like three weeks trying to get my psychology students to understand this. I think about half of them understood by the end, which I've decided to count as a win. But we have to get to them earlier than Junior year, I think. Statistics are used so much in school before then, it's very hard to break the blind dependence on correlation once they have developed it.
Spazmer · 1 points · Posted at 16:58:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But fat people drink diet coke, so diet coke must make you fat! /s
Except when it does equal causation. People who smoke have a higher rate of lung cancer than people who don't even when you control for other factors for example. Overweight people have higher rates of heart disease than those who aren't.
You can't come to causation without correlation otherwise you are assuming your conclusion. If we say that lung cancer is caused by smoking we're already assuming our conclusion. To do it right we have to look at correlation first, not causation. We have to look at populations of smokers vs non-smokers, control for any variables we can and then we have a correlation. From that correlation we can come to causation, not the other way around. We have to start from correlation though.
You can't come to causation without correlation otherwise you are assuming your conclusion
Sure you can. You can look at the underlying controls of a system. Pressing the top of my pen puts pressure on the ink cartridge, and through a little plastic piece pressed up against a spring locks the ink cartridge far enough down the pen to write with. No statistics needed there.
We use correlation when it's not easy to properly model the system.
Correlation is a tool that means we can say, hey these things are close, is there a cause/effect relationship here?
That's literally what I said. I'm saying that you can't really say causation doesn't equal correlation except when it does. It's still the other way around.
So I guess I'm arguing smaller semantics than I first thought. It's a one way relationship. There is an underlying cause to something that when we look at the statics, allows us to see correlation. It doesn't work the other way around.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:58:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm saying you can't say correlation equals causation when it does. You can start with a correlation and look for causations, but just because it's there doesn't mean there is a causation. And saying "except it is equal when it does" is still incorrect.
What you're saying is that strong correlations tend to have causal links. Which is totally true. But the math behind correlations doesn't claim any of that.
Maybe one of the correlated things causes the other. Maybe they have a shared common cause. Maybe you had a bad data set. You ultimately need to identify some kind of causal mechanism.
Here's a sticky one: Black people in the United Sates are correlated with lower income than Caucasians. Care to guess at where the causality lies there?
What I'm saying is we can't say "correlation doesn't mean causation" and then toss out every single instance where we have correlation and basically conclude that correlation is meaningless. You see more ice cream trucks in the summer than the winter. Does this mean that ice cream trucks bring warmer weather? Of course not but that doesn't mean you can't ignore correlation altogether because overweight people also have higher rates of heart disease. I see people all the time who use this as an excuse to toss out correlation altogether as meaningless.
In common language perhaps, but in the fields of natural sciences and philosophy it would be unnecessary to put "Necessarily" there because due to the nomenclature, correlation can never equate causation.
Very true, I sometimes use this to quickly win arguments with people when in my own head I'm laughing because what I said actually makes no sense and is easily countered. But it gets the job done since most people can't seem to tell the difference.
I'd say meeting time plus ~1 hour, to account for the 20 minute leadup of "Eh, no point starting something now," the 10 minutes that the meeting runs over, and the 30-minute post-meeting time it takes to get back into the flow of actually doing work.
This has a /r/biomememes kinda vibe, and it's non-explored terroritory. I believe it will profit in medium terms. I'd advise investing in waves as it rises in value and selling as soon as it takes a dive.
I've seen this in churches too, committees formed to discuss forming a new committee...
Lesp00n · 2 points · Posted at 18:22:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Reminds me of a situation at work. Three safety managers ago (so like 18 months ago) the safety manager decided we needed these 'accountability boards' to mark where we were in the facility/if we had left the premises for safety purposes, such as to make sure everyone is accounted for during an evacuation.
A few months ago we got an email which proclaimed 'the accountability boards do not, in fact, increase accountability.' Yeah, not only that, but they hurt productivity, because we had people who didn't remember to change their status on the board until they were halfway to the other location and had to turn around an come back to move their peg on the board.
In college I was taking 5 classes, going to an internship 2x a week, doing my RA duties (including all the duties they hid from us in the outline of 1 night a week + 1 weekend a month), being a good boyfriend, and zooming through all my midterms. It was tight, but I was on top of it...
...until ResLife pulled all the RAs into two mandatory two-hour sessions on coping with all the demands on us. My schedule got wrecked the night before a midterm by a seminar on how to properly block out a schedule.
zero_iq · 2 points · Posted at 18:58:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
To keep the productivity meetings productive and focused, we should have pre-productivity meeting planning meetings to nail down the agenda. To keep those short, we should schedule additional pre-planning meetings for the pre-productivity meeting planning team. And to avoid wasting the precious time of the pre-productivity meeting pre-planning team, we'll schedule individual tasks at an ahead-of-time preliminary pre-planning meeting scheduling workshop, then collate the individuals' contributions at pre-productivity meeting planning coordination team round-up meetings. To keep everyone on track, we'll assign pre-planning meeting planning managers to individuals, and they can coordinate at weekly pre-planning meeting planning managers' planning meetings, and we'll keep tabs on everyone daily at the morning pre-pre-planning stand-up, with an open-discussion feedback group every Friday afternoon at 16:45 to discuss any improvements to the system.
Tozon · 2 points · Posted at 19:11:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
At my last job a new manager came in and after a restructure morale across the board was pretty low.
To try and silence some of the moaning he decided each morning would have a 30minute team catch up, for 9 people.
4.5hrs per day, 5 days a week.
Taking the lowest team salary at about $30,000, that meant the meetings cost us a minimum of $18,750 a year - realistically a lot higher as there were some good salaries in there.
That could have been used to subsidise the team member we had just lost...
kju · 1 points · Posted at 15:37:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
They would have to work faster after the meetings, it's not magic, they have to make up for the time they spent in the meeting
My teacher used to take twenty minutes every day of our fifty minute class to lecture us because of how little we accomplished the class before. Every class on a loop she did this. If people tried to work during her lecture, she'd take an extra five minutes to complain about that. Three day projects took two weeks.
Quajek · 0 points · Posted at 18:39:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My old boss used to bring us in for 2 hour meetings to chew us out for not hitting productivity goals, and oh yeah, the goal for today is the same as if we didn't have a meeting. Good luck.
I was actually going to make a comment about never being able to understand how companies justified taking the 2 hour training and then multiplying it by the number people in the room and then trying to get back those hours.
Now I'm thinking about it again and if in two hours there's information that can save (or sufficiently improve performance to compensate) most people 12 minutes per day, over the course of an 8 hour day, the company gets back this time in two weeks.
I'm not saying I don't still hate meetings and I definitely think that back in my work days there was tons of time wasted with excessively long or uncoordinated meetings. There's was some reddit suggestion recently about trying to justify the opposite side of your argument and in this case I thought it worked pretty well.
Just an FYI (and because you deserve to know), the account you responded to is almost certainly a karma-farming account. It just copied and pasted part of this person's comment.
There is other evidence too that I've sent to the mods.
If you're not familiar with this type of account (and how they hurt reddit), this page may help to explain.
And to think it still got so many upvotes even though it was OP responding to their own question using a previous top comment last time it was asked.
flat5 · 7 points · Posted at 17:04:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
True. But from the manager's side, here's another perspective:
Just because you got two weeks uninterrupted, wrote a lot of satisfying code, and felt fulfilled and productive, doesn't necessarily mean you actually helped the project get to where it's supposed to be going.
Meetings do have their place, to make sure the "productivity" is real and not imagined.
dwpunch · 2 points · Posted at 19:04:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Another unpopular opinion: most people can't actually be productive continuously for 10 hours a day. Mental breaks to disengage are absolutely necessary. Although meetings can be excessive, it has some benefits:
people can add diversity to their day
opportunity for workers across departments or within to socialize a bit and bond, which most of us actually need
prevents people from being completely unproductive or worse, doing things to pretend to be busy
Making people work in chunks often makes them more efficient rather than giving them long stretches of solo time.
Holy god, this. I had a job once where my department was waaaaay understaffed and we'd periodically fall behind on one or more of our tasks. My manager's solution was to force us to track exactly how much of each thing we'd done and how much we had left to do, put it in a spreadsheet, and email him updated twice daily, plus an in-person meeting after lunch to discuss it.
I started tracking how much productivity we lost each day tracking and talking about productivity, it was roughly an hour per day depending on how long the meeting lasted. Insanely frustrating.
With an attitude like that, you will never achieve the Singularity, when every working moment is spent discussing and documenting work, rather than performing it.
nism0o3 · 1 points · Posted at 16:41:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not only the number of useless meetings and meetings to discuss meetings but (for my team anyway) we spend far too much time (often going over our meeting time) discussing the details of hypothetical scenarios. One person in particular will spend 20 minutes talking about how he resolved an issue, going step by step
the entire time with useless details. IT DRIVES ME NUTS!
Sedu · 1 points · Posted at 16:48:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Fantastic message! I'm calling an all hands meeting so we can workshop it!
For real. It's not uncommon for me to have 10+ hours of meetings in an 8 hour day because I get double/triple booked. And then I get shit for either being behind on my projects, or having the audacity of asking if I can skip any of the meetings that don't really apply to me, but they want me "in the loop" on.
Also anything I'm "in the loop" on is now my responsibility because I have knowledge of the subject.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:15:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I hate meetings so much. Most of the time they are meaningless and they just interrupt productive work. I think managers and others who schedule a lot of meetings are just bored. I mean we literally have meetings to discuss meetings.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 17:22:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 17:24:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not so sure how similar. The summary included this gem:
"How did we arrive in a state where managers do not recognize that thinking is part of their job? The answer reflects a relentless focus on execution in many large companies. "
I have never encountered a relentless focus on execution in large companies. Only a focus on meetings...
Yeah, I suppose you are right.
I saw the similarity from a tendency in the meetings I attend. There is a tendency for them to be just repeating and reinforcing the execution (and remind people who is in charge), even though we all knew already.
I wish my work understood that. And also more vacation time = more productivity.
Staying at your desk longer = more chances your employees will go on facebook and reddit
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:43:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
At my workplace all meetings take place during lunch. Of course we're also just 11 workers, including the boss. But that means that any and all stuff we need to go through gets done during lunch which means it's more like a discussion at lunch and no wasted work time.
My art teacher in middle school could not get this through her head. She would spend half of class complaining about us not finishing the assignment (and throw a fit if anyone tried to work on said assignment during her rant) that she had already not given us enough time to complete then complain even more when her 'productivity pep talks' made us take even longer on the assignment.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:03:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
ITT: jobs I want to have. All my jobs my work was too constant (and annoying) for many meetings. Thank your blessings you get a stress break/time to bond with your coworkers (which is shown in studies to increase productivity, so believe it or not your manager might actually be smrt).
Meetings can be a LOT more efficient than giant "reply all" email threads flying around for weeks and getting more and more off topic as people get more and more confused.
Sometimes getting 3-4 people in a room at the same time to discuss what needs to happen, and laying out some dates & milestones is far better than email threads.
I once heard a great reason for this. Managers do little to no work besides have meetings. This is their life. They incorrectly think this their underlings life as well and thus schedule meetings. When you find the managers that shield you from meetings, those are the ones to keep.
My last boss's boss called her into work on her day off for a meeting to tell everyone that they shouldn't be working on their days off because those days are to recharge and recover from working.
Good meetings can absolutely increased productivity.
Signs of a good meeting: Time boxed, well defined agenda, expected artifacts (a document that says people have agreed to X, a plan for how to perform Y, whatever).
And then someone in the meeting has to be disciplined enough to say "We're here to talk about X and X only" and keep everyone focused on creating whatever the artifact is that is needed.
I swear, 50% of management at my current company is getting paid to meet with other management and report to senior management. I'm just a part-time peon, but my boss' boss' boss just eliminated the middle boss about five months ago, along with the rest of an entire level of middle management, because they literally did nothing.
It's a catering company; each division has a manager, one manager for every three to four division managers, and a contract head to manage the senior managers. The senior managers got eliminated, since they essentially did nothing besides ordering for the divisions under their supervision, but they had to be alerted to supply shortages by the division managers, who usually ended up putting in the orders themselves instead of waiting for the senior managers' approval. The rest of the time was spent running around to different events, supervising the division managers and signing paperwork.
I believe the idea was to keep division managers accountable with more direct supervision, but the cost to have a whole other level of management drastically outweighed any benefit they might bring, so they were laid off at the end of the busy season last year.
Seriously, meetings should be to gather relevant people, present facts, ask outstanding questions about stated facts, and ultimately make decisions. All meetings should have a clear agenda so that all parties show prepared with the required information to facilitate the decision making and decision makers need to be decisive so the meeting doesn't ultimately become a waste due to no decisions actually being made. Task assignment should also be a direct output of the decisions made. If meetings don't meet this criteria then they are worthless and waste everyone's time.
jseego · 0 points · Posted at 18:08:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I have a relative who is a change management consultant, and he strongly recommends that companies adopt a policy that all meetings be voluntary.
If you plan a meeting and no one thinks it's worthwhile to their job function to show up, guess how important your meeting really was?
He has implemented this with success at some pretty big and complex companies.
I was once in a meeting where four managers were - really politely, they were nice guys - urging me to get work done faster, even though we all knew I was putting in insane hours on a wildly unrealistic deadline.
I was unfireable and we all knew that too - I try to be really polite in meetings so it went pretty cordially but at one moment I couldn't restrain myself and said, "You know, if there were one more of me and one less of you..."
I wish we had more meetings. We meet once a week and by the time the next meeting rolls around I find that no one else has spoken to each other since the previous meeting. We sync notes once a week and wonder why shit doesn't get done.
I feel like an excess of meetings could be caused by the organizer wanting to make themselves look good.
Hypothetical near FUUUTURE:
"See?! See? The issue is not my fault. I scheduled meetings in order to improve the team's work. That's on them. Don't let me go. sobs"
[deleted] · -1 points · Posted at 18:02:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Meetings are generally for the people who don't actually do much work but like to be seen as if they are i.e. managers
Its funny though. Americans love meetings, but their productivity is pretty damn high, so maybe their is something in it.
zirtbow · 358 points · Posted at 15:06:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Are you sure? Sounds like we should have a meeting to review how well your progress is going. It's okay just stay at your desk and I'll call you. Block out an hour this afternoon and an hour before that so we can discuss some information I'll need about the meeting prior to the meeting.
I was in a meeting once and an issue was raised that needed to be sorted ASAP. They higher ups on the call said, we will have a call at 10 to discuss your progress. It was 9:30, and that call finished at 10.
[deleted] · 9 points · Posted at 17:34:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Also two of my bosses are going to have a 1 on 1 with you to try to get you to explain the whole situation and then they will give you advice that doesn't help you whatsoever
I'll also give you a series of analogies to describe the process that I'd like you to use. Sort of like when you were kid and you tried to get a square peg in to a circle hole, but it didn't fit. So you went into your garage, grabbed your dad's hammer and proceeded to hammer the shit out of the square peg until it fit.
[deleted] · 4 points · Posted at 18:10:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think half of my calendar is daily / weekly standups / rundowns / task creation / etc meetings, and the other half is the business analyst asking if he can call me for a minute so I can do his job for him.
Much work remains to be done before we can announce our total failure to make any progress
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:30:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Man. I know it's not quite the same, but all the fucking idiots who leave a voicemail requesting i call them back so they can give me the answer /info i need when it's a simple as fuck thing. JUST SAY IT ON THE VOICEMAIL. So so so many people who demand unnecessary attention when they could just GIVE the info instead of emailing/calling /sending fucking notes demanding i call them back
Never ever ever. It feels so heavy-handed to even include one. You don't get to silently judge how I use my time. Just because I read your email doesn't mean I don't have something more important in line before you.
Oh yeah. Tagged emails immediately send the person to the bottom of the pile.
You know they're going to be the kind of person who follows up, every day, with:
"Hey, u/grandpappy_du-plenty, just checking on the status of that order again, even though you've said you'll call me when it gets here the last 4 times. Can you try and rush it? Call me right away."
The only people I send read receipts to are people who have tried to throw me under the bus on something they didn't get done themselves before. So yeah... I don't trust them.
I refuse to confirm I have in fact read their email. Now if there was a 'opened it, rolled my eyes at the first sentence and then closed it' button I'd be clicking the shit out of it.
I use a Chrome extension that sends me a read receipt without informing the reader. I do this because I work in sales and I need to know if my emails are being read - if I send you an email two days in a row and you don't read either of them, you won't read a third, and I should call you to see what's up.
I'm guessing that works by linking a resource in the email (like an image that's just a single pixel or something) from a certain URL and then notifying you when it's downloaded. Outlook at least will block this behavior by default. Some other mail clients (including web based ones) may as well.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 19:40:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sounds like something that would be available in Outlook. I couldn't say for certain. The not downloading without permission on each email works well for me, so that's what I do. Never messed with it.
Seriously. It's extremely rare for me to do a task the instant it comes to my desk - I rate everything on importance and do the more time-sensitive stuff first.
If it's truly urgent, call me. I'll get it done pronto if it's really the most important thing in my docket, but otherwise it's going in the queue and I'll get to it as soon as it's practical.
The only person in our entire company that uses them is our information security officer. The only emails she ever sends are reminders to not to open suspicious attachments/report suspicious emails and senders or to schedule our yearly departmental information security training and procedural reviews. Her job exists so our CIO had someone to throw menial tasks to that he didn't want to do himself (write policies, meet with examiners once per year, go to semi-annual board meetings, etc). She isn't important enough for read receipts. She also sends follow-up emails the next day (with read receipts) if you don't respond right away. I'm not a big fan of her.
That has a purpose though, the read receipt let's an audit show that everyone was trained/notified on whatever the email was about and saves her from going through a bunch of 'yeah, I got it' emails instead. It's a bad option, but quite a bit better than most alternatives.
But of all of the important trainings/meetings that need to be scheduled or emails full of information that need to be sent, hers are the least important. I'm not just being an asshole about this (I mean, I am an asshole and I'm okay admitting it but this really isn't one of the cases that I'm just being an ass). She really doesn't have that important of a function at our company but she thinks she does. If we don't send read receipts about scheduling training for changes in regulatory compliance, she doesn't get to send them for coming over to our building to talk to us about making sure we password protect documents.
Just an FYI (and because you deserve to know), the account you responded to is almost certainly a karma-farming account. It just copied and pasted part of this person's comment.
There is other evidence too that I've sent to the mods.
If you're not familiar with this type of account (and how they hurt reddit), this page may help to explain.
Definitely. If I'm sending an important proposal that's the summation of weeks of work by email, yes I'm probably using a read receipt along with a follow up email. And if you haven't responded to 2-3 requests for info and it's been 3+ days, I'll probably add a read receipt. It's a good way to add a little pressure and voice my displeasure with being ignored.
And CC'ing the boss is a great way to light a fire under someone's butt when they're ignoring an actual issue. Of course for day-to-day tasks I never use read receipts or unnecessary CCs. That's childish.
and if you come to my office to check to see if I've read it yet, there is a great chance I will 'accidentally' forget to do whatever you IM'd me about.
MrCrash · 1 points · Posted at 18:42:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
this. Not even about read-receipt, but I get so many IMs where all they have to say to me is "I sent you an email..."
so your urgent message to me that's interrupting my work is "Check your email"?
Yes. I'm at work. I am definitely looking at my mailbox. Stopping me from working to tell me to check my mail is not going to get me to your mail any faster.
Co-workers used to call me on the phone to ask whether I've read the email they sent. I asked them how often they checked their physical mail boxes at home.
You're not wrong that someone asking if you've read their email is annoying, but responding with something non-nonsensical like asking them how often they check their physical mailbox just makes you a douche.
I even turned off the screen pop for emails. When I'm working on something, I'm working on something. Emails will be addressed in the order they are received and sorted by my prioritization standards.
Fuck you, I'm not dropping everything I'm doing to look at your fucking email. Lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on mine. Take your PMP and shove it.
Alright, you come install the software on the server then, though I'm not entirely confident you can even spell SSH to initiate a session, so, this ought to be fun.
Sydin · 4 points · Posted at 17:53:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Don't worry, it'll take at least a half a dozen conference calls for the PM to figure out that it's an acronym, not something they should be trying to pronounce.
The time it takes you to complete my task is determined by the deadline I give you. Having you start later or increasing scope doesn't change the time it takes you. It says so on my schedule.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 17:26:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sure it changes the time it takes you. We spent so much time fucking with the scope, that you're now going to get twice as much done in half the time. Says so right here.
This is like my girlfriend's job. Her client is basically making them do extra things and jump through hoops for them and their product that are unnecessary, and at the end of the week they complain that not enough is getting done fast enough.
My god, at my pharmacy drive thru there is a ton of stuff I have to do on the computer to ring up prescriptions. I will gladly answer questions, but please don't go on about random stuff because I can't hold onto the phone and do everything else at once. Also I can only hear them when the phone is up to my ear and most people will start talking before I've picked it up.
People don't wait for you to say "Thank you for calling XYZ Pharmacy, how can I help you?" before they start talking? That's just a complete lack of social awareness...
Megmca · 3 points · Posted at 17:40:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Seriously. I can't call your insurance for an override until you stop asking me when I'm going to call your insurance.
I wish we had a phone AI that people could talk to about how confusing their medication is. I'd get so much more work done.
I like the "I need this done as soon as possible. It's urgent. It's really important that you finish this. You understand how important it is for you to finish this in time right? We're making these changes and they'll have problems if you don't finish in time blah blah" calls.
They spend like 10 minutes telling you why they need it done immediately, yet don't seem to realize they've just wasted 10 minutes you could've spent doing the job to tell you to do the job.
Similarly, if you'd like help via e-mail, you should probably explain the actual problem you're having. Not just state that you have a problem.
kaett · 2 points · Posted at 17:50:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
better yet... i can't fix the thing you're screaming at me to fix because it requires me to call other people and you calling me every 3 fucking minutes for an update means i can't talk to the people you're screaming at me to talk to. and yelling at me for not answering my phone is not going to help matters either.
You know what I also hate? When people send you an email with something that needs to be done, call you right after it is sent to see if you received it, then talk on the phone about the issue that was just sent to you in an email.
My mom would call me when I was late to tell me I was late. I'm like, "You are making me later because I have to stop what I'm doing, answer my phone, and for the most part stand still while I'm talking to you because I suck at multi-tasking."
I recently had an hour long application I filled out over the phone and explained damn near everything in detail (person was a little slow) and still complained about how it took so long he had to pee in the middle of the application.
If you just shut up instead of giving me your life story I can get the info in faster.
Fuck yes. I have customers constantly asking me to do stuff and want an email while I'm on the phone with them. It's like dude hang up and I'll send it. Like I'm just going to disregard what you asked me to do.
The same is about status calls. Having one call per day to ask about the status on work in understood, but having those calls 2/3 times a day, for a team of 6 people, which easily takes up 30 - 45 mins per call, is just bullshit! And then they complain that we are not productive enough, and we don't manage our time!!
I just changed job, went from a company where my calendar was choccabloc with nothing but voice calls and I got next to nothing done. Started new place and people let you get on with shit... done more in 2 weeks than 6 months at the old job and I'm still learning the ropes here...
ibpants · 1 points · Posted at 18:07:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Reminds me of CDT in school (short for Craft, Design, & Technology - basically woodwork). We'd have a two hour lesson every Monday, the first hour of which was always spent listening to the teacher complaining about how little work we got done the previous week.
This. Experiencing it first hand everyday in current assignment. No agenda to the meeting, no time keeping, letting the status meeting run for more than 2 hours every single day. Sheer loss of 10+ person hours of productivity each day.
The person conducting it supposedly has a certification in project management. BS.
I used to tell my boss "I can either fix it, or I can tell you how I'm going to fix it, but I can't do both at the same time."
Oh, right. Call me when you're done.
ZannX · 1 points · Posted at 18:25:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The more touchbases there are on my calendar, the less time I have to complete that thing we're touching base on...
Also, I explained to a co-worker that a meeting with 20 people in it for 1 hour is worth 20 man hours... and I always question whether or not we got literally half a work week's worth of productivity from that meeting. Blew his mind...
whenever I call Comcast, I get their name and ID number and then intentionally keep them on the phone for as long as I possibly can. Then I ask for their supervisor and do the same. If possible, I get their supervisor and do the same.
Am I being a dick? Probably, but fuck Comcast. (AT&T too, for that matter....)
Yup, I literally told a client account rep who scheduled a call with the client (non-technical people) to discuss the issues we were having "Would you rather I sit on the phone for an hour to tell them we're investigating the issue, or would you rather I investigate the issue and try to fix it, because I can't do both at the same time. Your call just guarantees another hour of down time...."
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:48:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I wish my customers understood this.
Yes, let's complain about wait times and busy phone lines when you're one of the people trying to tell me their life fucking story and causing the backup in the first place.
Hooooly shit. Seriously, I don't know if it's something in the water, but anytime someone at work needs me to do something, they feel the need to go on a ten-minute monologue about what they need done, how it should be done, and why it needs to get done. Meanwhile I'm scrambling just to get finished with my work so I can leave on schedule and they somehow feel like I'm not listening because I haven't stopped what I'm doing to sit in rapt attention while they give me their speil.
For God's sake, just tell me what needs to get done and I'll do it. No, I'm not going to enjoy the fact that you're giving me more work, and no, I'm not going to delay myself by 10 minutes while I listen to you, but if you tell me to do something I will get it done.
I am the only person in this department at 3am. If I put you on hold it's because I am fixing your problem or finding the answer to your question. If you hang up and call back because you think you've been holding too long, you will have to wait longer.
I work for a major pizza chain in a small town. Because we don't get much business we only have three people working at any night and usually only one person during the day. Nothing infuriates me more than someone calling and not knowing what they want, even worse when they have to walk around the house asking everyone what they want. Yea sure it's easy to run it solo during the day, until you spend 30 minutes on the phone with some mouth breather and you got 5 internet orders to in that time.
Se7enLC · 1 points · Posted at 19:55:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And if you're deciding between calling and emailing, calling will get you an immediate response. Emailing will get you a well-thought-out response. Unless the person is going to know the answer off the top of their head, let them take some time to do a little research and get back to you.
Reminds me of the commercial fucks at my workplace. "Hi I would like to call in sick, I've became very sick overnight and would like to rest" "Oh so you can't make it?" "No I'm so sorry" "Yeaah because I have stuff to do and now I have to find someone to do your work" "I know, and I would come if I could" "Well you don't really sound all that sick, are you sure you can't come?" "No" (silent break) "Yeaahh okay" "I'll try to get back soon" "Yeaah can you be back tomorrow?" "I don't know" "Yeah you sound like you're not all that sick I'm sure you can" "Okay sure I'll see"
90% of people spend considerable amounts of money on things that will only marginally improve their safety (eg. fancy child safety seats), while failing to spend small amounts of money on things that will dramatically improve their safety (eg. fire extinguishers).
They also forget that safety equipment can't make up for stupidity. Buying a Volvo and then proceeding to drive like a stampeding herd of hippos at 100mph on the highway is not safe. Despite the zillion airbags.
DondeT · 602 points · Posted at 16:28:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Even a single hippo is quite dangerous. The idea of a herd of them in angry volvos is terrifying...
In this scenario are the volvos actually driving the hippos, as in volvo on top of hippo? Or are the volvos angry chauffeurs and the hippos just along for the ride?
My dad's always driven a small car and says he drives better because he knows there's a huge risk if he gets into an accident. Interesting to learn there are studies on that sort of thing
Bought himself a Volvo and raved about how safe it was.
Drove over the speed limit constantly until he almost lost his license from the number of tickets he got.
HugoTRB · 3 points · Posted at 18:02:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That actually happens many times in Sweden if you replace the hippo with a 700 kg moose. They totals many cars here. You should be really carful if you are driving a small car through a forest here. It may step out a moose on the road.
Which explains Volvo's large number of airbags and very good brakes. They're made for moose.
tripog · 3 points · Posted at 18:44:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Problem is in addition to Volvos being safe they're actually pretty quick/powerful cars. I didn't buy a Volvo for safety I just couldn't drive my Trans Am in the winter, so I searched powerful awd car and the s60 has 300+ hp and torque.
The main differences being better drivers and the roads are better. I'd love if America could get something similar, but it would require much better driver's ed
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:52:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The human brain is the greatest safety device in existence. It just ins't always put to use.
SUV drivers in the snow will fall into this category. Yes, you can get going faster, but that does not mean you can stop any quicker.
wahh · 1 points · Posted at 19:19:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is why I vehemently disagree with all of the back-up camera, front-end collision detection, blind spot detection, and lane swerving detection stuff they are starting to put in cars now. It will make people extremely complacent about driving properly because they depend on the car to do all of that crap for them instead of paying attention to the road.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:37:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When I was a delivery driver in the late 80s/early 90s it seemed like half the aggressive tailgaters were Volvos. As much as people hate on BMWs, at least they aggressively maneuver around you so you don't have to think about them for very long.
On the same note. An airbag will not prevent 100% of injuries and no it is not the manufacturer's fault if you get hurt even when an airbag is deployed.
Some people seem to think an airbag is a fluffy pillow that protects you from all harm. An airbag is going to hurt if deployed. Your seat belt is going to hurt in an accident. Your vehicle's safety features are there to prevent deadly injuries not defy physics.
It's a Swedish car. You're far more likely to have a stampeding herd of moose driving angry Volvos than hippos, regardless of whether they're driving 100 mph or 161 kph.
prim3y · 3 points · Posted at 21:40:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'd have to dig around to find it again, but in summation people use the seats correctly, but are using the wrong seat. They think it has to do with age or weight of the child, but it's only height that determines which seat a child should be using. (If I remember correctly)
Hmm. My sister has a baby about six months that has a weight thing for adjusting the backwards facing angle. Is this something that would fall under comfort or safety for the kid then? Assuming height is correct. It's still backwards facing infant age. I'm not a parent :-)
Do you know what the brand of the car seat is? Almost all infant seats will have a level on the base so you can adjust the angle to accommodate for the angle of the seat of the car.
prim3y · 1 points · Posted at 22:44:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I too am not parent. As far as I know it's only dependent on the height of the child, but obviously, if the kid hasn't developed the strength to hold it's noggin up yet it's not ready for a booster.
Except every car seat has to pass the exact same safety tests. You can't just sell a car seat, the cheapest one at walmart passes the same tests as the most expensive one on the market.
[deleted] · 63 points · Posted at 16:45:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
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[deleted] · 35 points · Posted at 17:24:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
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gaqua · 57 points · Posted at 17:53:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The most common failure of a car seat for children is because it was incorrectly installed. You can address this by choosing seats that are easy to install and have basic instructions.
I doubt that's directly correlated with expense. Most of your money is paying for fluffy plushness and cup holders and other cool features (compatibility with strollers or conversion as the kid grows or ease of install, etc) not safety.
No one has argued that there is a direct correlation. The argument is that you shouldn't just buy the cheapest one thinking it's as good as all the others. What you should do is research and find out which ones are the safest, and buy based on that research and not price. You probably won't end up buying the most expensive seat, but I guarantee you will not end up buying the cheapest seat either.
pspahn · 11 points · Posted at 17:11:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, but will the cheap ones have expiration dates that are sooner? (If you didn't know, child seats have expiration dates)
Most have a 6-year expiration date starting from the date of manufacture. Also, you aren't just buying safety. Those fucking things suck to take out and put back in a car. I will pay a little extra for safety and convenience.
No one's saying it'll disintegrate, but it will weaken. The plastic in your car isn't really designed to save you in an accident, while the plastic in a child's car seat is.
That is not because of danger that the plastic is degenerating, said David Galambos, compliance and safety manager for child safety systems with Graco, a unit of Newell Rubbermaid.
"It's not as if you'll hit the expiration date and the plastic will become weak," he said. "The plastic is good for at least 10 years. But regulations and standards are constantly changing."
For example, in both 1999 and 2002, car seats incorporated new methods of buckling in children and attaching the seat to the car. Although parents can still use car seats with older mechanisms, manufacturers can't sell them.
Also, Mr. Galambos said, as the car seat ages, "some of the history gets lost, such as whether it was in an accident or not."
"Replacement parts get harder to find," he said. "Webbing and such start falling apart."
But, he acknowledged, the seven-year date builds in a pretty hefty buffer zone.
"We're not seeing any disintegration until a minimum of 10 years," he said.
Mostly it's not that components degrade, it's that standards continue to improve.
If I were to take the original equipment and make a brand-new car seat using standards from 15 years ago, in general it would not be as safe as a 2017 model sold today.
It is that way with racecar safety equipment - there are FIA standards and SFI standards - SFI gear costs less, but expires in 2 years. FIA gear has a 5 year re-cert date.
There are three major and a few other safety ratings for motorcycle gear, most notably being DOT, Snell (two variations, apparently) and ECE 22-05. All of them have to meet DOT to be sold as safety gear, and the other standards are beyond that. I don't know that they have year requirements, but they definitely have crash and drop requirements after which they must be replaced in order to provide the intended benefit.
Which is sad, because they discontinued my helmet and I have such a huge fucking head it's hard to find something that fits.
Generally 6 or 10 years, but that's a pretty big difference. Given that seats are often more than one type, you can exceed the limits with one child let alone handing them down.
Bazzie · 3 points · Posted at 19:26:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There are plenty of consumer organisations that test child seats and the differences are staggering. At times they even find ones that don't comply with the law and get repelled. More expensive sure as hell doesn't always mean better, but I don't agree you can just buy any random one and get about the same quality.
Except I want my car, child safety seat, etc, to meet more than the minimum safety standard.
NSippy · 2 points · Posted at 20:10:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You might find this interesting. The IIHS has reviewed a large lot of booster seats, and has rated them. Some are "Not Recommended" due to their poor belt fitment on the passenger.
The seat might meet collision minimums and requirements, but it still might not be effective. There's very little regulation on car seats. The DOT doesn't approve them, and the only info you can get on your car seat being improper is if it's recalled and you find out about it. They just have to meet federal standards for a vehicle.
Kahzgul · 20 points · Posted at 18:28:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I recently bought a new "big kid" safety seat for my 4 year old.
Cheap safety seat: $18 at Target. Five star rating. Has removable and washable covers and two cupholders (why?). Appropriate for any child aged 4 and up, weighing 40-100 lbs.
Expensive safety seat: $215 at Target. Five star rating. Is made out of carbon fiber and has memory foam gel inserts (what is "foam gel? Who knows?). Has a back that is removable. Usable with back for ages 4 and up, weighing 30 lbs or more, or without back for ages 4 and up, weighing 40 lbs or more. Has four cup holders (WHY?). Comes in "cool" colors (the pink version of the exact same chair was $15 cheaper).
So I looked at these two chairs and I bought the cheap one. You're paying almost $200 more for a back that your kid will either never use or will barely use (most 4 year olds already weigh nearly 40 lbs, if not more - mine weight 39.5 lbs the day he turned 4 and he's average weight), 2 extra cupholders (which is still 3 more than you need), and cool carbon fiber and colors. Seriously if you have a child seat I don't think you need to worry about the weight reduction of using carbon fiber vs. plastic.
So yeah, it's not that you're being cheap with the life of your child; it's that you're not being ripped the fuck off.
One is for the chocolate milk that your child will leave in the car all weekend, the other is for the new chocolate milk. The reward you get as a parent is seeing their facial expression when they drink the wrong one.
Kahzgul · 4 points · Posted at 18:49:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Okay, I see where this is going. Now can you explain why the other one has FOUR?
I use the crap out of my younger son's 2 cupholders, and really miss the extra on the older son's seat.
One has a drink and one has a snack, or I put small toys in them if we're going to be driving awhile. They're basically the only place to put things if I want him to be able to access them himself while he's in the seat.
Kahzgul · 2 points · Posted at 19:06:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I paid more for a big kid seat so that my kid can stay in a 5 point harness longer. I'm no hurry to get to a less safe option and seatbelt only booster is less safe than a 5 point high back booster.
Kahzgul · 2 points · Posted at 22:29:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That makes sense. The two seats I'm describing were both shoulder harness seats using the car's existing seatbelts.
Carbon fiber weighs less and has a longer lifespan than plastic which means your seat will be good for multiple kids. Weight is important for many people, as is fashion. You aren't being ripped off if you weigh the options and feel that the extra features are worth the extra money. Dollars don't have the same value for all people.
Kahzgul · 9 points · Posted at 18:56:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The single seat would need to last me through 11 kids to be more cost effective than just buying 11 of the other seat.
I should have mentioned that the $18 seat looks good, too. It's just not bright blue/green and carbon fiber. More of an elegant grey with charcoal covers.
I mean, if buying and disposing of 11 seats is easier for you that's fine. My point is that different people have different priorities and needs so it's not very useful to judge them for making choices that fit their needs and means.
The back is an important safety component for kids that can't keep the shoulder strap in place. That means they understand they need to sit still and have enough awareness when they're sleeping to stay upright. I switched my 8 and 9 year olds to backless booster seats recently and realized they're just not ready. When they fall asleep in the car they're flopping all over the place - it renders the shoulder strap useless. You don't have to pay $200 for one either, I think the cheaper ones are $50.
Kahzgul · 1 points · Posted at 03:13:58 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
That makes sense - I was intentionally using the cheapest 5-star seat and comparing it to the most expensive 5-star seat in order to illustrate how marked up the price of the pricy one was.
[deleted] · 5 points · Posted at 17:43:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's why manufacturers fleece you for all your cash. There's a point where the cost-benefit crosses.
I know where you're coming from, but I'll spend the extra money for extra comfort or padding or extra safety. Yes I know they all get tested and pass the tests but they also are not all same. I got one that's a perfect size for my car and can be adjusted. Yes the cheaper one would have just as safe, but nothing else. It's my choice it I want to get child a more comfortable and wider seat for a little more money
[deleted] · 9 points · Posted at 18:12:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Which is fine. But what you said was "It's only your child's life you're being cheap with."
Yes, I spent $400 on The First Years True Fit IAlert C685 Car Seat when they first came out. It alerted you of the temperature, if the child was left in the car, etc. via Bluetooth on your smartphone. Unfortunately, it was a piece of crap. I think they may have scrapped it.
well if we would've bought the higher standard, more expensive condoms, we wouldn't be in this mess in the first place
ghc86 · 2 points · Posted at 20:07:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Don't they all have to meet the same basic safety requirements which are all very strict though? I have heard the same with baby food/formula. There is no reason to buy more expensive stuff because the regulations are very closely monitored for those things.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 06:14:06 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't think that is so. If you buy a cheap new child seat it meets all the same safety requirements as an expensive new child seat
Gl33m · 235 points · Posted at 15:58:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think that's why the word "fancy" is there. You absolutely need a child safety seat. But there's little difference between a 50 dollar seat and a 500 dollar seat. People pay more for what is a very slight or non-existent increase in safety, but don't pay a little bit for a major increase in safety by buying a fire extinguisher.
Edit: I keep getting the same replies about car seats. There are some people that focus on spending significantly more money for a small perceived increase in safety. Source: Mommy blogs and vlogs. Yes, I know there are other factors that can also come into play. Yes, I know that most people are rational humans that recognize that all the car seats are safe, and price differences come from other factors. That doesn't change the small group of people I was referring to...
I bought the 500$ not because it was "safer". I bought it because it lasts from when they're a newborn until they're like 3 or 4 years old and it's easy to install and put a baby into it. If I bought the cheaper one, I'd end up buying one or two more down the line to accommodate the growing baby plus an additional seat for the other car due to how much is it sucks to try to install the cheaper seats.
Gl33m · 13 points · Posted at 16:34:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If that's your reason for buying, then you're definitely getting some kind of benefit for added costs. But there are absolutely people that buy a 500 dollar seat simply because it says it's safer.
I bet your not even rich. . . Perhaps a wager of a pizza WITH A DRINK!?!?
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 20:52:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Same deal with motorcycle helmets. There's a lot of "don't but a $100 helmet unless you have a $100 head" type comments used to justify $500 helmets, but if the $100 helmet passes the same safety tests you're not getting more safety for the extra money. More comfort, less wind noise, lower weight, etc but not increased safety.
I mean all those problems on a cheeper helmet could contribute towards distracting you and causing you to crash in the first place. It's hardly safe to have an uncomfortable helmet that you are trying to adjust or excess noise while you are literally being a projectile weaving between things that can crush you.
And have to deal with the hassle of storing and moving all those seats. And the extra plastic and crap you have to throw away in a few years because the seats are expired. Etc.
shapte · -4 points · Posted at 17:31:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes! My kid was off the charts in height and weight his whole toddlerhood. His car seat only RF to 40 lbs. he was 39lbs when he turned 2 and I knew we wanted to RF for longer than that so we bought a Clek Fllo. $$$ but I. LOVE. IT. So easy to install and is rock solid. It's now been handed down to the baby and we're still loving it.
Also one of the benefits of the $$$ seat. 9 year expiration.
Spazmer · 4 points · Posted at 16:56:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I paid a lot more for a carseat that was thinner. Probably exactly as safe as a walmart carseat, but for a hundred $ more I could fit 3 across my van instead of 2. Which with a daycare, is important. I think the price is not related to safety but the other features.
Gl33m · 4 points · Posted at 17:00:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You're a practical person with legit reasons. But not everyone is like that. A close friend of mine is pregnant with her first, and she's always reading mommy blogs and vlogs and shit. And those women go insane over safety ratings for car seats, and really do pay way more for minor perceived increases in safety.
she's always reading mommy blogs and vlogs and shit
Oh lordy, one of those. I have family that think they're the best and have mommy (ick, hate the word) blogs simply because they popped a few out. They're also into those makeup pyramid schemes, I'll take their word when hell freezes over.
Meh, it may be annoying, but they probably have some idea of what they are talking about. Sure, you may want to be wary when they say you HAVE to get the $500 carseat, but they are likely knowledgeable about which ones to stay away from. You don't have to like someone or hang onto their every word to get useful information from them.
If something's consistent among multiple accounts (such-and-such brand is awful), I'll believe it, but I fully don't trust a single thing they say. The bloggers I know are actually pretty terrible people with questionable lines of thinking, so I don't feel I can trust others with the same mindset as them (I'm a mommy, this means I'm validated to create a blog that shows my superior parenting practices!).
Unfortunately, you can only buy one kind of fire extinguisher, and it sucks.
The types I'm aware of are:
1) Class A (water)
2) Class AB (foam)
3) Class BC (CO2)
4) Class ABC (dry powder)
5) Class ABC (Halon)
6) Class D (copper powder)
7) Class K (dry powder)
Of all those, only #4 is available to the general public, the rest all need to be special ordered. If you've ever used one, you know how bad they are, and if you've ever used one in a confined space (kitchen or garage)... Yeah, you were coughing it up for weeks.
We have three of those dry powder extinguishers in the house, but I'd trade them in for CO2 at triple the price if I could just buy the damn things.
It's not for safety, it's for durability, style, ease of installation and adjustment, wider range of ages, etc.
It's like anything - if you buy the dollar store version of a product, it will get the job done at least once. But if it's something you're going to use often, you're typically better off spending some money on it.
Domukin · 2 points · Posted at 17:40:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
As someone who spent days trying out different car seats. It's not really about how fancy they are per se. Some car seats don't fit well in some cars and are awkward to use. In this case paying another $50-100 may very well be worth it to avoid an otherwise daily headache get the kid in and out of. Some people also don't install the car seat correctly... which defeats the whole purpose of getting one.
I had to go through this recently and it seems to me that the thing about baby stuff is the price difference isn't really about safety, it's almost always about comfort, ease of use and cosmetics.
The $50 one will work fine. But it will be ergonomically difficult to carry, it'll look cheap, it'll be a pain in the ass to get in and out, etc.
whereas the $500 one will probably be really plush, easy to hold, nice padded ergonomically shaped handled, easy snaps for getting in and out, and look stylish.
Depends on what's important to you for where you want to put your money.
It's actually ease of use that you're paying for, most of the time. I have a cheap carseat and an expensive one and the expensive one is much easier to use, install, etc.
I work for Toyota and the amount of people who'll replace their air filters which can wait and decline replacing their tires which are close to racing slicks because there's no fucking treads is rediculous
I read an interesting article on the fact that there has never actually been direct comparison between a car seat and a regular seatbelt. All the statistics are a comparison between the car seat and no safety restraint. It also said that a high proportion of car seats are incorrectly fitted, making them less safe or potentially useless.
Nope. All a booster does is position the kid so that the belt doesn't snap her neck in a collision. Companies are so greedy that they pass laws to increase sales and make more profits from the average person and try to convince us that it is for the safety of the child.
I think it's because something like a booster seat stays inside a vehicle for the majority of its lifetime. After 5 summers of sitting in a sweltering hot car, the different components of the seat break down which can potentially make the seat unfit for use.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 19:37:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Eh, I'm pretty cheap, but I won't buy a used car seat (full seat, not a booster) for my baby. Same reason as I won't buy a used bike helmet or used car tires: you can't necessarily tell if it's been in a wreck and is structurally compromised. If I'm going to spend any money on a car seat, I'm not wanting to worry it's going to fail in the moment of truth.
But this doesn't speak directly to expiration dates, of course. My guess for that is them is that safety regs are probably updated regularly, and the expiration date is the company's way of covering its ass if someone holds onto a seat built to outdated regs.
If anybody is interested the authors of superfreakonomics financed their own crash test because no manufacturer wanted to test child seats against standard safety belts.
satysin · 6 points · Posted at 16:15:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think what /u/sideclass was talking about is spending 5x the amount on a high end child seat which isn't actually any safer than a cheaper one. They all have to comply to the same safety standards after all. I guess it is similar to buying generic Paracetamol vs. some kind of branded product with impressive packaging claiming it "works within 10 minutes!" when all Paracetamol does that.
flekkie · 3 points · Posted at 18:54:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'll have to disappoint you, it's not true if you look at the stats. Let the freakonomics explain that to you (watch first 10 min)
Actually, the Freakonomics guys did a bit on car seats and found that car seats are not a great bang for your buck on safety. In fact, in certain collisions, they found the child would be hurt worse in the car seat.
I've seen a lot of research and crash tests proving child seats to be quite counter productive actually increasing the risk of a neck snap. Apparently the seats are being heavily pushed by the manufacturers.
You can't take a newborn out of some hospitals in the UK unless you bring a car seat for it. It's presumed you will be driving it somewhere at some point, so just bring that car seat along right now.
"Fine, we'll be keeping an eye out for when it comes in on the back of a tow truck. And we'll work up the bodywork estimate then too."
[deleted] · 20 points · Posted at 17:28:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
reminds me of the saying that goes something like "never skimp on the things that seperate you from the ground", as in shoes, tires, matresses... i think a child seat would also qualify, but of course there's always the law of diminishing returns.
TmickyD · 2 points · Posted at 20:23:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Different example, but was just talking to a friend that is a Pediatric Nurse and she said basically this exact thing. That some parents will leave a pediatrician for the simple fact that the scale isn't in the exam room, and they'd have to walk their baby 3ft to get weighed, and then say they want an 'alternative vaccine schedule.' But don't know anything about vaccine schedules. So, to your point, people get VERY concerned about things that do not matter at all, but won't do any research into things that could kill us. People are weird.
I never bothered with a fire extinguisher until I bought a deep fryer. At that point I figured I would SERIOUSLY regret not having one. Especially if the ones in the apartment's hallway weren't for grease fires...
Korhaka · 4 points · Posted at 18:48:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Pro tip: If you dont have the extinguisher to hand or it will take some time to get it, soak a towel in water and put it over the fire. Usually the easiest option people have in the kitchen using materials almost everyone actually does have, rather than should have.
Ugh, don't do that. Putting water on a grease fire causes it to grow, even water in a towel. You need to cover it completely with a lid or another pan to smother the flames.
This literally made me think of this past weekend. I was grilling food outside and something under the grates caught fire so I went inside the house asking where the extinguisher was and the family just kinda looked at me like "what extinguisher?" Like really??? Luckily we had a hose outside. . .
DondeT · 11 points · Posted at 16:29:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That hose won't be quite so lucky if they ever start a grease fire...
[deleted] · -2 points · Posted at 18:55:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yet... some dudes probably have a gun and a security system.
Furthermore, some dudes probably carry a gun on them when they are going through a rough neighborhood or something (maybe even for something that can't really be avoided, like work).
Faust_8 · 5 points · Posted at 19:03:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
For sure. But the question is how many of the people who protest "but muh protection!" also have additional security measures? Is it a minority or a majority? My hunch is minority.
Car tyres. Please people, don't skimp on your tyres. Don't buy junk tyres made of Chinesium. Get some good high quality tyres. You'll thank me when your car can actually perform to the best of its ability to prevent you from having an accident. Its not a guarantee to not crash obviously, but it sure does reduce your chances.
Korhaka · 3 points · Posted at 18:47:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So.... Should I buy some Germanium tires to put on my Chinesium bike?
That's why people don't own them-- no one expects a fire. But fires happen; your home is full of electrical things that could short out, gas appliances that could leak, chemicals that can explode if heated. Irons, straighteners, stoves, cigarette butts.
It's insurance, a $20 investment against what might happen.
True, but odds are if I am at home I'll notice something smoking and get it unplugged in time. If I'm not at home, the fire extinguisher isn't going to do any good since it cannot operate all on its own.
I live in an apartment with a fire extinguisher just a few feet from my door, so I haven't worried too much about it.
It only takes one. $20-30 is waaaaay cheaper than making a claim on your homeowner's insurance.
Korhaka · 1 points · Posted at 19:07:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But isnt fighting the fire going against all advice given in the first place, which is to just get out of the building. Only use a fire extinguisher if you need it to get your self out.
on top of that, and i'm sure there's a name for this, but people will do riskier things once they have the "safer" equipment. Your 5-star crash safety rating is not very useful if it makes you drive like a bat out of hell.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:02:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you're a parent and you're reading this:
All child seats have to pass the same tests. So the 100 dollar seat is just as safe as the 300 dollar seat. The difference sometimes is ease of use, but honestly if you're paying attention and putting the straps and clips where they go then you're good.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 22:39:01 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
^ yep
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:11:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
(eg. fancy child safety seats), while failing to spend small amounts of money on things that will dramatically improve their safety (eg. fire extinguishers).
Is it statistically more likely for a car owner's home to go up in flames than it is for them to be in a car crash?
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:33:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's not the relevant question. Obviously any car seat at all is better than none. And given the frequency of car crashes, if you have to choose between a fire extinguisher and a car seat, I'm betting the odds say choose car seat.
But if you have say $150 bucks and a choice between a $150 car seat and no fire extinguisher or a $100 car seat and a $50 extinguisher, you'd be foolish to make that choice. And yet people do every day, because deaths to house fires are very often preventable yet people regularly go without alarms and extinguishers.
Also, quick stats I grabbed for the US:
In 2014 4.7 deaths per 1,000,000 due to fire ages 0-14 (all types of fire)
I'm 2011, 1.3 deaths per 100,000 due to auto crashes among children under 12.
So yeah, get a car seat before you get an extinguisher, but DON'T neglect to get an extinguisher too. Even if you assume the nicer car seat is 1% safer, it's still a better risk reduction to improve fire safety.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 19:43:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Original comment didnt really make a distinction between different car seats, the 'fancy' part just seemed dismissive of car seats in general.
In 2014 4.7 deaths per 1,000,000 due to fire ages 0-14 (all types of fire)
Doesnt mean a personal fire extinguisher would have helped either. I'd wager a lot of those fires started while people were asleep
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:48:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Good point about OPs wording. Obviously I disagree with OP if the merits of car seats are in question versus fire extinguishers. It isn't even close.
And yeah, many if not most fatal fires start while people are asleep and since most fatalities are in bedrooms, where there are no extinguishers, it stands to reason that extinguishers aren't a simple cure for fire deaths. Good alarms are going to be more useful, but also more expensive since you need them throughout the house.
Jatrap · 2 points · Posted at 18:23:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This post literally made me realize there isn't a fire extinguisher in my house. I've legitimately never thought of it before.
LPT: Fire extinguishers make great housewarming presents. Not exactly romantic or anything but hey, when there's a grease fire in the kitchen, a fire extinguisher is a hell of a lot more useful than a bottle of cheap wine.
fewdea · 1 points · Posted at 18:46:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
People like cars with big A-pillars because they feel safer. They're proven to cause more accidents, because they create a bigger blind spot. But they feel safe.
Everyone please take this opportunity to make sure there's a fire extinguisher handy (most people just need one in the kitchen).
I recently saw a hundred thousand dollar Porsche saved by quick thinking and a handy fire extinguisher.
It's really nice to turn a catastrophe into a near miss.
BozzCL · 1 points · Posted at 19:10:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Crap, I forgot I needed to buy an extinguisher. Thanks for reminding me!
Car seats for young children are required by law in industrialized nations, while fire extinguishers generally aren't mandatory outside of workplaces and public buildings.
Am a big fan of having good inexpensive fire extinguishers wherever I live, specifically in the kitchen and garage. I saved my house from burning down many years ago when I walked into the kitchen to find the dishwasher fully engulfed in flames that were licking the ceiling. It was an electrical fire with plastic, and it took most of that fire extinguisher to put it out, but I saved the house!
Your comment is potentially an interesting angle on marketing. I've gotta presume that there's a heckuva lot more markup/rent seeking availability in baby seats.
Or maybe it's just social. A child is safer in a house with a gun than in a house with a pool. And a "safety first" parent wouldn't have either.
90% of people spend considerable amounts of money on things that will only marginally improve their safety (eg. fancy child safety seats), while failing to spend small amounts of money on things that will dramatically improve their safety (eg. fire extinguishers).
Regulations over here require you that, if you have a fire extinguisher, to have a yearly revision & checkup of it. But it's not a required thing to have. The net result is that instead of doing a very expensive yearly makeover of it, we now don't have one.
I'm very angry at this regulation.
Camoral · 1 points · Posted at 19:53:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You use the marginal equipment every day, but the emergency equipment in emergencies. The perceived value isn't in what they protect people from rather than the frequency with which they protect. It's dumb, but it's the most reasonable guess at the logic I can muster.
Dude, my boss got a warning about our fire extinguisher at work because it hadn't been checked since 2004. That was a year ago and he still hasn't done anything about it. I honestly think he forgot a week after the inspection.
You are absolutely right! I did some research on both topics you mentined:
Fire alarms prevent you from dying while asleep, fire extinguishers may be helpful to stop small fires before its too late. Get some fire alarms before extinguishers and have two exit plans - this required me to get a small ladder.
With child safety seats its more important to have the right kind, eg backwards-facing or later one with a big cushion instead of small belts (like those from cybex). Its simple physics, which also require you to adjust your driving habits regarding distance and speed.
A similar concept was brought up at a tactical training I attended recently.
The head instructor was talking about someone who showed up with a $2k carbine with another $2k of glass on it and all the newest "cool-guy" gear, but when asked where his IFAK was, he said "I don't plan on getting shot".
Well nobody does, dummy. But shit happens. All the fancy rail-mounted can openers in the world won't help you when all you need is a damn $30 tourniquet.
obievil · 1 points · Posted at 23:15:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Years ago, I asked a woman why she drove like a maniac. Her response was "God won't let me die if it's not my time, so why shouldn't I?"
We're not friends anymore.
Anaract · 1 points · Posted at 02:41:58 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
What kills the most is people who won't do something once because there's a 0.01% chance that something terrible could happen to them. Won't swim in the ocean because shark attacks, won't hike because bears, won't skydive because parachute could malfunction
And yet they drive on the highway to work every day. Irrational fears are one thing, but at least admit that you have one
Granted, I'm not an expert in safety, but I had to do the 40-hour JHSC course in safety and part of that was risk assessment. Basically it's not only about how likely injury is to happen but also about how severe, and those two factors together determine "risk". On our chart, any hazard that could result in severe injury or death is "high-risk" regardless of whether the likelihood of the hazard occurring is low. So I'm not sure what you mean by "dramatically improving safety", that statement doesn't make sense. It's about risk management.
rskogg · 1 points · Posted at 17:45:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Good one.
And everyone should learn CPR. It may be a rare occurrence to use it, but it really is a life or death issue.
If someone you love drops, and you could have helped....
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 17:10:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Bicycle helmet vs gloves
It is very rare a child bumps their head, they will almost certainly land on their hands - and then their face, while not scratching the helmet.
Risk is comprised of two components, likelihood and impact. When you mitigate risk, high impact low likelihood events get the majority of the attention.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:05:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes, that's was OP's point, to which I was providing an additional example.
you are compelled by law to have a baby/child seat.
you are not compelled by law to have a fire extinguisher.
Nobody buys a car seat for their kid just because. They do it because if they don't they will have to pay a ticket if caught. Baby/kid seats are something parents are basically forced to do; they won't even let you leave the hospital without a car seat for your baby.
If we did the same with fire extinguishers, more people would have them.
ETA: I grew up in the 1970s and '80s, trust me when I say people would not buy car seats unless forced to, because I saw it all unfold when the forcing went down. Car seats seem like a no-brainer when it's all you've known, and perhaps folks who grew up without it being a choice but necessity would buy car seats regardless. I would, same with using seat belts without it being forced, but I honestly don't think most folks would
They don't buy baby seats "just because", they do it because they don't want their child to die in a car accident. I mean even if the law didn't compel me to use one I still would, because I love my kid and I'd be devastated if he died a preventable death.
Right? Like why do people think they are required by law, for shits and giggles?
One of my students was killed in a car accident along with three of his family members and his mother lost both of her legs. It's unimaginable to me what kind of suffering this woman woke up to. Why the fuck wouldn't you do your best to prevent the death of your child.
aak1992 · 1 points · Posted at 18:26:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This right here is why I give NHTSA safety ratings so much regard. My wife always pesters me about it when we car shop, I will pass over features, design, space, you name it- when it comes to her safety I choose the safest car I can afford.
We ended up buying a Volvo S60 last year for this reason, the competition had better infotainment, a few nicer options, etc. but I wanted the safety of the Volvo. My extended family acted like I was crazy and overreacting. Safety is something nobody cares about until it's too late.
I don't know about the seats - there are a lot of advantages that you don't find in the cheaper seats that can affect your cost long term. A higher weight limit (so that you can use the seat longer) was limited to a few pricier brands. Some let you reuse, or will repair, the seat after minor accidents, some are a lot easier to install, easier to clean, have more side impact protection - it's enough to make you break down crying when you need to figure out what seat you're going to get.
It's a function of the fact that pedestrian traffic accidents are much less common than are in-home medical emergencies, and slowing the arrival and departure of ambulances by as much as a minute or two can have a measurable impact on mortality rates.
The point is that the $100 could be spent on something that actually needs it, like better tires.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:20:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The issue with this type of reasoning is that it's an incomplete picture. 1% of what?
For something frequent, a 1% reduction in fatality risk is nice. Worth $100. What about a tiny risk, though? Would you pay $100 dollars for a 1% reduction in risk for something that is 1 in a million? Because 1% less than 1 in a million is still basically 1 in a million.
Do you check on the age of aircraft when you fly? Because yes, newer aircraft are technically less likely to crash, but when the risk is already like one in ten million, the small difference in risks between old and new (which is greater than 1%) is basically nothing.
So do whatever is sensible and economical to protect yourself and your family, but when calculating risk you have to look at the scope of the risk before saying you'd do anything for another 1%.
I don't know where you live, but a "fancy" (I choose the term "proper") child safety seat in your vehicle will increase the child's chance of survival in a car crash by multitudes. We have a fairly expensive seat ($700-ish) for our daughter and I'd gladly pay the white out of my eye to ensure my child's absolute best chances for survival should something happen. Here you will be charged with involuntary manslaughter if your child is not property secured in a fatal crash.
Then again, we also have a fire extinguisher easily available in case of fire and do several fire drills per year, so I'm not sure I fall into the category you mention.
(I may have misinterpreted your comment, if so I'm sorry)
To name some of the things I absolutely love about this seat: the orange circles on the sides are magnet that hold the belts in place when you take the child in or out of the chair so they don't get stuck in the belts. You can detach the seat from the base and use it in any car that doesn't have ISOfix handles, even forward-facing in the front passenger seat due to the adjustable foot rest. There's an anchor on the back of the seat that helps it stay in place should the ISOfix handles fail or if the car seat the child seat is standing on moves forward in a sudden stop. It's super easy to clean, anything and everything a toddler is able to lose, throw, spill, turn upside-down, regurgitate, poop, pee or in other ways soil the chair with is easily removed with a wet cloth and doesn't leave a smell. Believe me, I know.
My wife and I gladly spend more money on things that secure our child. I don't want to be in a position where I skimped on something that could potentially save her life or even make sure she doesn't get hurt as much as she would with an "inferior" (implying cheaper = inferior. We all know that's not always the case, but I'm not willing to take that chance whatsoever, not with my only child's life/health) thing protecting her. Maybe that's the helicopter dad talking, but I want only the absolute best for my child and I'm extremely thankful for being in a financial position where that's possible.
Btw: there's nothing wrong with putting the child seat in the front seat if you disable the airbag on that side. Our daily driver Peugeot has that option. There's no law preventing anyone from using the front seat for a child, as long as the child is properly secured (i.e. disabling the airbag and using the belts/base properly).
Our local driver's ed college had a free course for parents about properly securing children in vehicles. We learned a ton.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:38:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Do you have any evidence you might have come across for this? I'm not necessarily doubting you, I just genuinely don't know. I do know that the catch-all answer people give of "they all pass the test" isn't entirely satisfactory because unless all test-passing car seats never have fatalities there's room for passing the test and doing better.
That said, if you're pursuing the maximum extremes in car seat safety, there are almost certainly other safety procedures and best practices you're neglecting that would pay better dividends. Like a fire evacuation plan and updated/tested equipment. Or driving slower. Or putting a child's bed on the floor to prevent falling from bed.
It's my own bias I guess. As long as the child is properly secured it shouldn't matter, because as you say, all chairs/seats pass the test. I'm just not willing to take that risk by gjetting a cheaper seat/chair when I can afford one from the top shelf.
Regarding other factors in a car crash: we have window busters on both sides and in the back, a small fire extinguisher in the back (a fire in a car accident is super uncommon, but you never know what you will encounter) along with first ait kit and reflective vests for every seat in the car. I'm not humblebragging when I say I'm a very observant driver (I've avoided being in many crashes simply by keeping an eye on my surroundings). There's not much else I feel I can do. Open for suggestions, of course.
Then again, you can be all that is perfect on the road, but how anything in traffic turns out is really up the person in the opposite lane..
Regarding the extreme of having the child sleep on the floor because then they won't fall out of bed: jeez Louise.
I mean, we bought a fairly basic child safety seat that had the added advantage of working for a very long time. Our son is 5 and still using (and fitting perfectly into) the same seat we used for him as an infant.
If your argument is that child safety seats don't need to be fancy I 100% agree with you. If your argument is that child safety seats themselves only offer a marginal increase in safety I'm going to have to disagree with you. Automobile accidents are way more common than fires, and generally more deadly as well.
For what it's worth, I have 2 fire extinguishers in the house as well (one near the kitchen, one near the bedrooms).
EDIT: Not sure why my comment was downvoted. If the person who downvoted wants to explain what was wrong with my comment or how it didn't add to the discussion that'd be great.
[deleted] · 23 points · Posted at 18:58:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So much this.
I mean, I'm a relatively quiet person anyways, but still. Some people are just fucking loud, no matter where they are or what the situation is, and I don't understand why. I seriously wonder how they are not embarrassed, or if no one has told them how obnoxious they are. It makes me uncomfortable.
Shouting a conversation around people that aren't participating makes people appear immature, intoxicated, and/or completely lacking class.
[deleted] · 5 points · Posted at 20:01:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When I was a kid, it was drilled into us to talk sparingly in the library, and when we did talk to talk in hushed tones. But that rules disappeared some time in the past 40 years. Even the librarians yammer away at the checkout desk at full volume.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 18:50:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Eclania · 5 points · Posted at 19:12:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't have an inside voice. My gf has actually gestured like she's turning a volume dial when I'm getting too loud and ngl it's embarassing. I don't like causing a scene or making people uncomfortable but I used my voice when I was younger as a way to get noticed because I felt ignored, which is connected to my insecurity about my stature. Also my family is really loud.
Similar to this is quietly walking. I got new upstairs neighbors recently and their young children are like a pair of hyperactive elephants stomping around all the time.
My kid is one of these. He screams everything. Not in an angry way, just in a "surely the neighbors want to hear me tell you what I'm building in minecraft" way.
I spend most of my life indoors and hold the majority of my conversations, using various volumes, indoors. Therefore, every tone of voice I use is an indoor voice. Correct?
nofixie · 3 points · Posted at 18:59:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm not sure which is more annoying: someone who is outside using their inside voice or vice versa.
Edit: Not everyone can be above average would have been the more correct way to say this, but clearly everyone understood what I was saying.
Edit 2: Guys, I'm a statistician. I know that there are plenty of cases where MOST people can be above average. Any time you don't have a symmetric distribution, if you define the average as the mean. I said EVERYONE. There is no case where EVERYONE can be above average. If all but one person is above average, and that one person is WAY below, then that's still not everyone, now is it?
You say the average "person." So to get that 2.5 number, I'm guessing you measured the men and entered all those lengths, then entered "0" for all the women, then calculated the average.
Average penis size of males is approximately 5 inches. Average penis size of the human population would be around 2.5 (lots of zeros coming in to play by the women folk.)
Actually thinking about the math it would probably be less than 2.5, right? 1/2 the population with 0 and and 1/2 greater than 0... wouldn't that drag it below 2.5? Would 2.5 be the median? I haven't taken statistics in forever... somebody educate me!!
Utkar22 · 15 points · Posted at 17:14:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If average for penis size is 5", and we take that very nearly 50% of people have a penis, then the average (mean) amount of penis per person is 2.5". It's like if half of everyone had on average 5 coins, and the other half of everyone had no coins, the average (mean) would be 2.5 coins.
Median would certainly be 0" though. Half of everyone is born without a penis. A non-zero number of people go from having a penis to not having one. This means fractionally more than half of all people have 0" of penis. Median being the value between lowest and highest by population count, it'd be one of the 0" people by sheer majority.
Mode would also be 0", as those with a penis would have varying lengths to any useable number of significant figures. As before, more than half of everyone, just about, has 0" of penis.
HOWEVER, this is the average amount of penis that any given person has. The average length of penis remains 5" despite most people not having one. If one person owns a 100k house, and nine other people are homeless, the average house price is still 100k; nine other people just don't factor in to the equation.
I specifically phrased it "penis per person" to account for a lack of penis, AND reaffirmed that the average penis length remains 5" regardless of how many people are without a penis.
So are you agreeing with me and calling the rest of the thread lousy, or misreading my comment?
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:06:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You don't factor in null values in data sets when analyzing sample data, you only consider non-null sample points, meaning that anyone without a penis would not be considered (they don't have a zero inch penis, because they don't have one at all). Therefore, the average penis size is still 5 inches.
Bo's line about fallopian tubes IS accurate however, since most people have 0 or 2 tubes, which can be averaged together since we're not considering any null values (again, since 0 and null are not the same, and the value being worked with for males is 0, not "null" as you can't have a null amount of something).
Sauce: Market Research Survey Programming Tech Lead.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:58:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
that's only if you define the penis size of a person with no penis as 0, which really doesn't make sense.
TheTVDB · 1 points · Posted at 19:47:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The average penis size of ADULT males is 5 inches. There are around 1.9 billion children in the world, which means there are a little under 1 billion male children in the world. That's enough to skew the average much lower than 5 inches.
Additionally, the 5 inch value is when erect. Unless we're suggesting that everyone is erect right now, the average for adult males is closer to 3.5 inches. I would guess with this info the average size for males is closer to 3 inches which means the average for everyone is around 1.5. Note that penis size decreases for the elderly as well, but this is likely accounted for in the male average, since I couldn't find age ranges associated with that figure.
If you're actually interested there's a fairly lengthy (pun somewhat intended) article on wikipedia. Not going to link as I'm at work/school, but if I remember correctly average length is 5-5.5" and average circumference is 4.8", depending on what study you look at.
Many people have two legs, but some people have one or none, and nobody has more than two. This means that even though most people have two legs, the average is slightly below that.
"Pardon me for staring," said Milo, after he had been staring for some time, "but I've never seen half a child before."
"It's .58 to be precise," replied the child from the left side of his mouth (which happened to be the only side of his mouth).
"I beg your pardon?" said Milo.
"It's .58," he repeated; "it's a little bit more than a half."
"Have you always been that way?" asked Milo impatiently, for he felt that that was a needlessly fine distinction.
"My goodness, no," the child assured him. "A few years ago I was just .42 and, believe me, that was terribly inconvenient."
"What is the rest of your family like?" said Milo, this time a bit more sympathetically.
"Oh, we're just the average family," he said thoughtfully; "mother, father, and 2.58 children—and, as I explained, I'm the .58."
"It must be rather odd being only part of a person," Milo remarked.
"Not at all," said the child. "Every average family has 2.58 children, so I always have someone to play with. Besides, each family also has an average of 1.3 automobiles, and since I'm the only one who can drive three tenths of a car, I get to use it all the time."
DukeMo · 9 points · Posted at 17:40:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is why the 'mode' exists as a measure of average.
saors · 4 points · Posted at 19:09:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No, median is better.
Take the following set of numbers: 0, 0, 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7
The mode is 0, while the average is 2.8 and the median is 2.5
So, the median is closer to the average than the mode is. But the strength of the median is that it isn't thrown off by outliers; if we add 100 to the end of the list, the average goes from 2.8 to 12.8 while the median goes from 2.5 to 3.
You probably already know a lot of this, but I got carried away typing...
¯\(ツ)/¯
DukeMo · 1 points · Posted at 21:36:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Mode is better for average number of x body part, imo. I mean... mode really only makes sense in this context. I would agree that in other contexts, median is better.
This is why the 'mode' exists as a measure of average central tendency
Average = mean = summation/population. Mode is the most frequently occurring value and is not the average at all.
edit: different strokes for different folks I guess, but if I asked someone to find the average of a group of values I would not expect them to come back with the mode.
I agree you should be specific, but in my general experience when someone says "average" in a statistical or scientific sense, they're referring to the mean and not other measures of central tendency.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 17:52:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Probably not upvoted enough, this unintuitive truth
I don't think many people use the word "average" to say median/mode, it always refers to the mean. Even putting =Average() in Excel gets you the arithmetic mean.
Yeah, true. But when you start saying stuff about the average number of legs, I think that starts to fall into the realm of statistics, where 'the average' doesn't really mean anything.
Statistics isn't meaningless, it's math. Mean, mode, and median are statistics. The fact that "the average" has a singular definition of the arithmetic mean is exactly what gives it meaning, and what makes the joke funny. Words lose meaning when you arbitrarily change their definition to suit you.
Statisticians tend to use to median as the preferred measure of central tendency (average) precisely because of things like this. If you use the median, most people have the average number of legs.
Just... some people are going to be above average at things like basket weaving and gum chewing, and some people are going to be above average at science and math. Everybody can't be above average overall though.
Everyone can't be above average at a given task. Everyone likes to believe they are better than average at driving, for example. They clearly can't all be.
If you have 100 people and 99 of them have an IQ of 100, while 1 has an IQ of 90, the average is IQ is 99.9. 99% of the people have an above average IQ. No reason to round objective numbers. A majority of people can absolutely be above average within a small sample size.
Obviously with IQ, as with most things in humanity, there's an overall bell curve though.
e3super · 7 points · Posted at 17:21:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Driving is an example that is pretty skewed, though. I've had hundreds of car rides that were reasonably comfortable, and I've interacted with thousands of other drivers doing nothing of note, then I've ridden with one girl who could give you a panic attack driving you to the other side of a parking lot. Also, one of my sister's friends once drove our ATV into a ditch because she just missed the road she was turning in to, not to mention she hasn't gotten her driver's license at 25 because she failed the test +-10 times.
I'm happy to learn. Have you got any examples where 90% of the population is above the mean?
MrXian · 1 points · Posted at 21:36:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Driving, probably. Large swathes of the population can't physically reach the steering wheel and pedals at the same time, so average could well be hitting the car in front of you.
I believe you mean median. Mode is the most frequently occurring value, while median is the halfway marker. If I have 30 students on an exam, the mode could be 100 with only two students actually scoring 100, while the mean and median are likely much lower. The same could be said if the two students scored a 0 instead.
Merprem · 2 points · Posted at 16:57:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is so the truth when it comes to driving. Most people are adequate drivers. They cut people off on accident occasionally, or merge stupidly sometimes, but are generally sticking with the flow of traffic and don't make those mistakes very often.
But the 10% that are god-awful at driving cause significant amounts of problems. All it takes is one of these bad drivers to cause a 4+ lane interstate full of tens of thousands of commuters to come to a screeching halt.
Some people will be above average drivers. Some people are demonstrably bad drivers. Those bad drivers might be great swimmers, or maybe they're really good cooks or something.
I get what you're saying, and you're right: we can't all be above average in general. What I'm saying is that everyone (barring a few unfortunates) have areas where they're above average, and below average.
Gl33m · 153 points · Posted at 15:51:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The ones that are below average at everything are above average at being below average.
There is no factual reason to believe this. Intelligence and skill, as far as we know, are not zero-sum.
Gl33m · 2 points · Posted at 18:25:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That was the entire point of my statement. The fact that some people are statistically going to be below average at everything inherently means they're above average at being below average.
I have intentionally created a meaningless tautology... That's the joke.
Rozurts · 2 points · Posted at 15:52:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Eh, I don't agree. I think how good you are at most things is driven by intelligence or general athletic ability. Some people are "dumb" and so will be bad at most things that require intelligence. Same with athletic ability - lots of people are bad at all sports. I think the way you're describing it you make it sound like for every thing someone is bad at there's some other thing they are good at instead. I don't think that's the case... the vast majority of people are going to be either above or below average in general or at least in the vast majority of things.
108241 · 2 points · Posted at 16:01:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Everyone can't be above average at a given task. Everyone likes to believe they are better than average at driving, for example. They clearly can't all be.
It's because everyone uses a different metric to judge their own driving. So people think "I don't speed, so I'm a better driver than all those people who break the law by going too fast." On the other end of the spectrum, people think "I can drive a lot faster than the speed limit without getting into an accident, so I'm clearly a better driver than those people who are going slower."
Depends on what you value though. I suck at maneuvering tight spots and parallel parking but very good at ultimately driving safely, obeying the laws and not crashing. Am I a good driver? Some would say yes, some would say no.
I'm perfectly happy being below average at driving. A few accidents when I was younger have made me a better driver now. Average still sucks now though.
I'm just imagining years down the road where kids are blown away by the fact that PEOPLE used to drive cars. It will be nice to get places safe and fast as fuck without having to worry about traffic jams n' shit.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 15:54:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Almost everyone can be above average at any task.
In a room of 9 normal people and one idiot, the nine normal people are above average.
I have an uncle who is below average at everything. He's good at nothing.
Wait. He's had like, seven kids. He's above average at having disabled children I guess. With all those genetic conditions he's passed on it's a wonder he's not disabled himself - he seems to be a carrier for everything.
ithcy · 5 points · Posted at 17:47:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
He's also above average in the number of things he is below average in.
This leads nicely into my answer to the top question:
"Everyone can't be x" means no one can be x
"Not everyone can be x" means there are some people who are not x.
okhhko · 1 points · Posted at 20:19:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Exactly. It's a simple grammar thing that so many people get wrong and shit gets me so heated.
Same with "All that glitters is not gold"
No.
Gold can glitter. That statement isn't true. Just move the "not" and it becomes acceptable. "Not all that glitters is gold."
/endsalt
In a similar vein, when putting up with all kinds of incompetent shit from coworkers it's important to be mindful of things you're doing that might piss them off.
I'm sitting in my room, and my mom and my dad came in. They pulled up a chair and they sat down. They go, "Mike, we need to talk to you"
And I go, "Okay, what's the matter?"
They go, "Me and your mom, we've been noticing lately you've been having a lot of problems, and you've been going off for no reason, and we're afraid you're gonna hurt somebody, and we're afraid you're gonna hurt yourself. So we decided that it would be in your best interest if we put you in a place where you could get the help that you need"
And I go, "Wait! What are you talking about? We decided?! My best interest?! How do You know what My best interest is? How can You say what My best interest is? What are you trying to say, I'm crazy?! When I went to Your schools, I went to Your churches, I went to Your institutional learning facilities! So how can you say I'm crazy?!
In Germany, until a couple years ago, middleschool was divided into 4 different types of school.
Hauptschule(mostly for people who really sucked in elementary school, you can decide between a 9th grade and 10th grade degree.(both are pretty much worthless))
Realschule(for people who are average and have mostly no intention of going to highschool, middleschooldegree after you finished it)
Gymnasium(for people who want to go to university, you get your highschool degree after you finished it)
Gesamtschule(for people who are average, but still might want to go to university. You basically learn the same stuff, that you learn at the Gymnasium, but you have 1 year more to finish it)
If you went to a Gymnasium, you are damn surely more intelligent than the average German person.
Edit: Hauptschule seems to have a 9th and 10th grade degree. Thanks to /u/Kandierter_Holzapfel
Well if you were doing better at Hauptschule you still had the chance to go to a Real- or Gesamtschule. But if you constantly fucked up for the first 6 years of school the chances are pretty low you can/ want to make a turn.
You aren't exactly locked in forever. People transition between the schools, and even later in life you can make changes. It only recognizes where you are, really, not so much where you're guaranteed to end up... but where you are probably influences your eventual odds.
Out of my elementary school class (32 people) 8 went to a Gymnasium (4 later had to change schools to Gesamschulen)
9 went to Hauptschulen and the rest went to either Gesamtschulen or Realschulen.(50/50)
If you can read and operate a computer, you're probably of above average intelligence. If you can do both of those things and spell most of the words you write without autocomplete you're probably in the 75th percentile or above. Almost everyone using Reddit is of above average intelligence.
Assuming we mean IQ, it's because we construct it that way.
Ligless · 5 points · Posted at 16:07:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In theory. But in practice, it's probably fairly close. It's not like there will be many statistical outliers that are so smart or so dumb that they effect the average much one way or another.
Throwing out a random number, 49.8 % of people could be "above average" if there are enough geniuses to offset the average from the mean. But I'd be surprised if it's much more drastic one way or another than that.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 16:14:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
glass20 · 10 points · Posted at 16:46:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"a number expressing the central or typical value in a set of data, in particular the mode, median, or (most commonly) the mean, which is calculated by dividing the sum of the values in the set by their number."
Mean is what average is commonly referred to as, but you could go by the median and still technically be right. When someone says something like the "average person" they're probably actually talking about the mode ("average Joe" - it's gonna be the person that is most common) so it can really mean any of them
But, I don't think that the average person is stupid. I think that the average person is pretty smart, but at the same time that person is much more interested in things I don't care about and I am interested in things that the average person doesn't care about. So, we have different skills sets.
Some people are dumb, but I don't think it's all that many.
Xaxxon · 3 points · Posted at 18:00:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
average doesn't directly correlate to a number of samples being on either side.
Jucoy · 4 points · Posted at 17:49:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Please don't try to quote George Carlin again. Please.
Median is an average. It's the same as saying a poodle is a dog.
The mean is the same thing as an average; the median just means the middle in terms of counted elements in a number set. It's not a subset, like poodle:dog. It's more like "dog is brown"; not all dogs are brown, and not all brown objects are dogs. For example, what are the mean (average) and median of the following data set:
Colloquially, measures of central tendency are often called averages. The term central tendency dates from the late 1920s.[2]
The most common measures of central tendency are the arithmetic mean, the median and the mode.
I don't know if you believed that you produced an original thought here, but I think quite a few people on this site are already plenty familiar with this (attempt at a) George Carlin quote.
Disclosure: Something about the way you said it kind of felt like you were trying to pretend you created it, and that irritated me, because it was neither original nor well-executed.
Someone should tell the UK government. Schools are inspected and are either good or require improvement. What happened to satisfactory? Is satisfactory not surely what most schools should be?
yupsate · 3 points · Posted at 15:31:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, but like 99.9% of a population can technically be above the average. You could literally have one person bringing down the average and everyone else is above it.
Most people have a higher than average number of legs.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 17:42:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Christ took -infinity, everyone else is finite, average is still -infinity making everyone else above average, checkmate atheists.
While not everyone can be above average, the overall average can certainly be raised, which is what we should aim for as a society
Laerai · 1 points · Posted at 17:58:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
True, but everyone that has access to the internet can be above average (3.2 billion). And frankly, aren't those the only people that actually care?
ePants · 1 points · Posted at 17:59:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
EVERYONE can't be above average.
Edit: Not everyone can be above average would have been the more correct way to say this, but clearly everyone understood what I was saying.
Most people aren't even aware of what they're referring to when they say "average."
If 9 people scored a 90 on a test, but one person scored 100, then the class average is 91, so those 9 people are all "below average."
Yet if the outlier scored lower, like a 70, then the class average would be 89, and the 9 would be "above average."
Any time "average" is used you have to understand what the high and low outliers do to the average. This is why the "average life expectancy" was in the 30s in the past (because the infant mortality rate brought the average down even though anyone who made it into adolescence had a good chance of living past 70) and also why the average household income in America is inflated (unless it specifically doesn't include the top 2%).
Same here. I stopped correcting them a long time ago. I've had my comment deleted for having the nerve to fact check it.
Amatura · 6 points · Posted at 18:07:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But I saw quote by [scientist/celebrity/activist/pundit/comedian] and it was quippy enough to make my chuckle. It also contrasted [thing-I-don't-like] against [thing-I-do-like].
So I don't understand how this could be false. It's a slam dunk truth. Don't you believe in [science/math/reason/god/facts/justice]?
One person who really hated this was the late George Carlin. A lot of things are attributed to him online that he didn't say. It didn't matter if it was funny or clever, it drove him nuts that he really couldn't stop it.
Amatura · 3 points · Posted at 18:30:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
One person who really hated this was the late George Carlin. A lot of things are attributed to him online that he didn't say. It didn't matter if it was funny or clever, it drove him nuts that he really couldn't stop it.
Wow. That's ...almost.. libel then.
George Carlin memes really are the worst, and I was starting to hate him for the bullshit that was attributed to him...
Meme's and YouTube videos. The people who are being fooled into believing 'Flat Earth' conspiracies. Most of their 'evidence' is just meme images or youtube videos drawn over with arrows pointing at clues. These people are taking these silly memes as absolute truth above ALL of scientifically verified published information.
You will never be worse off for accepting a raise. Let's say 100k is the next bracket and you get a raise to 105k. You only get taxed at the higher rate for 5k.
Not with taxes, agreed, but possibly with benefits. It's possible that someone starts making enough that, say, their Medicaid coverage could drop off, and the financial responsibility of that puts them into a place that's worse off than they were before.
[deleted] · 692 points · Posted at 17:23:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Can confirm, when I was homeless I was on food stamps, wasn't much but it kept me from starving, I found a place and all it came with was a mattress, it was further away from work so I had to pay for public transit, I have no way to store perishable food items, so at my place I'm actually eating at about 1500 calories of Ramen and popcorn (I work at a movie theater) a day because I make 100 dollars more than it would be to get the 200 dollars in food stamps
If you have a stove or something, you should look at buying dry beans/lentils and rice. Together they make a complete protein and it's easier to add variety to them than it is with popcorn
[deleted] · 164 points · Posted at 18:01:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I use a rice cooker, ramen rice and beans are life, I live across the street from a grocery store and get some fruit every morning when I wake up. I just had a birthday and my family (not my parents, but my uncles/aunts and grandparents) sent me gift cards to Whole Foods and The Container Store so I can get some "furniture" and can hopefully spice up my diet every now and then.
Do you know if there is a "produce" store that is easily accessible by public transportation? They generally sell fruits & vegetables for a very small fraction of what you'd pay at a grocery store.
phayke2 · 5 points · Posted at 20:09:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When I'm down to just a couple dollars one of my goto's is Velveta shells (which don't need any extra ingredients) and sweet potatoes. If you get the store brand it comes out to like 1.50 per meal. Then maybe throw in some black pepper and sriracha in the macaroni and some butter and cinnamon on the sweet potatoes and BAM you have a dirt cheap meal worth looking forward to.
Another way to eat good and cheap is to make breakfast burritos. Spend like 15 bucks, get some filler ingredients. Black beans, mexican rice, tater tots, eggs, mushrooms, pepper, onions, maybe chicken,bacon,breakfast sausage whatever's on sale.
Then cook everything you had and roll like 10 burritos with it, wrap in foil, put in a freezer bag and that's another awesome full meal for like 1-2$ each that you can literally just throw in the oven and grab on your way out the house. Taco bell has breakfast salsa packets if you wanna save a few bucks on that.. You can even do a few types like bacon/egg, sausage/potato, shredded chicken burritos. The secret is all the cheap filler ingredients and the hour or so spent cooking it all in bulk.
rcbs · 3 points · Posted at 20:36:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I know it sounds gross, but you can find some great stuff dumpster diving. I used to do it a couple times a week even when I was making a decent living. If you have an Aldi near you, hit it up. I'd find food and home goods there all the time. Also check out r/personalfinance.
[deleted] · 45 points · Posted at 18:14:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Dumpster diving is how you get bedbugs, I had to deal with that once and hopefully never again. There isn't an Aldi near, it's about 2 hours by train. And that a very helpful subreddit, thank goodness I'm already decent with money or else I'd probably be in a worse spot
I used a rice cooker at first too but ditched it for the Presto fryer since I can pop popcorn in the Presto. Also its smaller and gets hotter. (I think 450 degrees). Its a mini miracle.
Who gives a person who was recently homeless gift cards to Whole Foods??? Unless they are for massive amounts why wouldn't they do a normal local supermarket chain? Whatever amount they gave you would go so much farther. That one is a true head scratcher.
[deleted] · 5 points · Posted at 20:27:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The family that sent it is in Georgia, the only chain grocery stores near me are Safeway, Trader Joe's, and Whole Foods. I use the whole foods gift cards to buy "Dirty eggs" basically unwashed eggs that still have a protective membrane, makes them last a few extra days
At least you're being smart about it. I knew a girl who was legit broke and only shopped at Whole Foods. She wanted all organic and thought it was healthier. First, eating non-organic foods short-term will have no negative effects on your health. There isn't even much data pointing to long-term organic benefits yet. Literally wasting money on an idea.
Check for furniture on Craigslist if you haven't already. Some people are incredibly nice and will deliver very inexpensive pieces of furniture--especially if you explain your situation a little. Even a fridge possibly...
RichWPX · -14 points · Posted at 18:51:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But how are you on the internet then? I mean doesn't food > internet?
Ok guys I was just asking, as it has been shown it's pretty damn important. :-)
[deleted] · 41 points · Posted at 18:54:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My friend has me on his phone plan, I pay him 25$ a month since that how much it was to add me. Also phones are pretty important, if I didn't have a phone how could I get in contact with my case managers, or have my work call me when they need me to cover someone. Also there are free phones and phone plans to people in California who are on any level of welfare
Not really. A small internet bill covers TV, telephone, communications, job hunting, and other things. It is an efficient use of money. And you can split it with a neighbor. A truly unlimited DSL line is pretty cheap when split between two people, and will handle 2 streaming feeds and active skype calls easily.
Often the time it takes to get on transit to the closest library isn't worth it, for anyone that is living on the brink of poverty. They are working lots, going to school, etc... It's much more economical for them to apply to many jobs when they get home and respond quickly to interviews.
These days I'd say Internet is about as much of a required staple as anything else. Plus you can basically just hang out online instead of going out and spending money. Many urban areas offer "subsidized" internet plans with 25Mpbs or slower.
It is really hard to get a job these days without Internet access. And a phone is pretty crucial as well. A cheap smartphone and internet package is definitely a reasonable purchase ven if poor. It is a necessity and investment more than a luxury.
I don't know much about IBS, but I feel like popcorn can't possibly be much better
jminuse · 1 points · Posted at 20:28:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Lentils are a complete protein by themselves for all practical purposes. They're low in one amino acid (methionine), but they still contain more methionine per pound than rice does. So if you want more protein you're better off just eating more lentils. But adding some rice does make them taste better.
Good question - There was no source, but I googled it and found this chart (2nd one down). Apparently eating 7 large potatoes in one day (2,652g, I did all the math), gives an amino acid profile that well exceeds the daily amino acid requirements.
According to the article, "The only truly 'incomplete' protein in the food supply is an animal protein: gelatin, which is missing the amino acid tryptophan.[10]"
Cool. I'd never heard about having to mix veggies to get protein, just that you had to eat certain ones to get it at all. Also, seriously vegans (annoying ones) , this is evidence that eating meat is default in a human diet. 7 potatoes a day is alot.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:34:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you have to go several million years into the past to get to a mostly veggie diet for your argument... you might be on the wrong track. Humans only "became" a thing 2.5 ish million years ago. And modern humans? 0.2 million years. So if we've been eating lots of meat for (your figures) "less than 1mya" I'd say that means modern humans have a meat in their diets by default.
And you know what? Don't eat meat if you don't want to. I'm just saying that some very vocal, very annoying vegans ruin it for everyone else by claiming dumb things.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 14:29:34 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
The welfare system in America is just absolutely horrible. With all the flat cutoffs, it actively incentivizes and rewards staying below the threshold.
Make under 15,000 a year as a single adult? Enjoy your SNAP benefits! Make 15,010? Sorry, SOL.
Not to mention many welfare programs have a maximum amount of money you are allowed to have in your bank account. Saving up for a car, to move so you can find a better job, or trying to go back to school? Too bad, lose all your benefits.
[deleted] · 14 points · Posted at 18:32:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The same happened to me, the cutoff was $2000 of assets. I had a van worth about $3000 that I used to transport equipment for my seasonal job. I could sell the van to be eligible for benefits, but then I wouldn't be able to work when my job started up again.
gyroda · 2 points · Posted at 19:09:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's also exceedingly easy to avoid if you've got family you can trust. Just get them to open a savings account and pay into it.
There is a cut off, yes. It is too low, yes. But your original comment made it seem like you thought it was a yes or no thing, when it is a sliding scale. That's what I was objecting to.
Lesp00n · 1 points · Posted at 00:17:27 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not to be that guy, but do you think the government really wants you in a better place? From their prospective, what is better? To have you relient on them to keep them in power or to be self sufficient?
I've done this. Make sure you get a multivitamin, drink enough water and the sodium from the ramen becomes a non-issue.
Also rice, beans, lentils, and curry for flavor.
[deleted] · 5 points · Posted at 18:07:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Multivitamins are bae, I drink about 1.5-2 gallons a day. I buy a ton of tapitio, I've gone through 3 bottles over the last 2 weeks, love it and it's only a dollar
I knew someone in college, they did the exclusive ramen thing for a few months, and wasn't taking a multivitamin. . . Not because he couldn't afford better, he was just a cheapass.
Anyway, long story short. This land-locked midwesterner wound up in the hospital with--likely--one of the only cases of Scurvy that hospital has seen.
[deleted] · 7 points · Posted at 18:17:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oh my God that's hilarious. Sad, but hilarious. When I was 13 I was hospitalized for being malnourished, apparently my parents had similar thinking, so now I swear by multivitamins
Same here. College student and mom. I made $7.25/hr bartending plus tips which I didn't have to claim since they were past minimum wage. I lost that job because of some bull shit and I am now making $8.00/hr. My food stamps went from $440/month to $391/month because of my "pay increase" which was really a decrease because I wasn't bringing home $300/week in tips. The system is designed to keep you poor.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:33:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah I went from 200$ a month to 28$ a month, it's a very effective system to help those in need /s
I made $7.25/hr bartending plus tips which I didn't have to claim since they were past minimum wage.
I think either there may be something wrong with the way you phrased this, or there may be something wrong in your understanding of what you're supposed to claim.
Food stamps are on a tiered system as well, though. If you are only $100 over getting the max amount of benefits ($200ish) you should still qualify for something. Especially now that you pay rent and have to pay for public transit, since they take into consideration your expenses. I'd call your local office that handles SNAP and talk with a case worker. I wouldn't be surprised if your benefits were wrongly cut off from the info that you've provided here.
[deleted] · 14 points · Posted at 18:01:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Did you inform them of your increased income without letting them know about your increased expenses? Just trying to help remotely-- I work with helping folks get signed up for benefits, but every state and every case is different.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 18:51:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, I had to go to biweekly meetings with a case manager so I told him I got a job and we put in how much I'd be making, he put it into the calculator and I got 28 dollars. So I use that to eat out every now and then, I can buy subway sandwiches once a week!
So, just to be explicitly clear, he didn't add in your living expenses into the calculation?
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:58:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I had the job before I had my apartment and I've gone back to try and fix it but he, and other case workers ahve told me that "My income exceeds my monthly expenses by too large a margin" and they only count what I actually have a bill for, so things like phone, rent, bus pass, student loans, and gym count, but not groceries, laundry, even utilities don't count. It kinda sucks but I'm pretty sure I can get by
Honest question: why do you live in one of the most expensive places on the planet if you can barely afford basic human needs?
I work in tech myself, and have a reasonable job. SF is the dream, but I wouldn't dream of moving there because I know it's unreasonable to expect to be able to live in a place where prices are inflated by massive demand.
No hate - I'm genuinely interested. I hear the same a lot from my mates in London with no reasonable explanation. Always struggling, but never willing to leave the city to live somewhere that they could afford a much better quality of life.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 21:51:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well my parents kicked me out after coming out of the closet, I enlisted but got a medical separation, wanted to get away from my parents (Not stay in reasonable distance to them) so I came out here with a few thousand dollars and have been making it work for myself ever since. I'm a pretty smart guy so I never slept on the streets, made friends quickly and after a bit of couch surfing I got tired of it, went to a homeless shelter and have been trying to get back on my feet.
I guess barely being able to live isn't a result of moving out here but just a factor. And I'm only 21, I came out here on my 20th Birthday a year ago so I like to think this is the struggle of my 20s. I could have easily gone somewhere cheaper but there's a lot less opportunity and if I can't make connections when I'm younger I think it'll set me up no necessarily for failure, but not as bright of a future when I'm older
Good luck to you, friend. I admire that you are aiming high and you still have time on your side.
One word of advice: depending on your area of work, I'm not sure you're going to make great career connections as a couch surfer with no fixed address, so make sure to call it a day at the right time.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 22:29:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Now I have a fixed address, just when I first got here I was a couch surfer, I've got my own lease and rent and everything
Is it walkable/cycleable? I have a kick scooter and it saves me so much time and money, plus you can fold it down
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:27:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If it were flat, yes. My building doesn't allow bicycles (weird, right?) I mean it's just over a mile to get to work, I live in San Francisco, but it's up 2 hills, so that's 2 hills there and 2 hills back, and I'm on my feet for 8 hours, sounds miserable. I've done it a few days but it ends up taking me upwards of an hour
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:20:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sigh... the welfare trap. Everybody knows about it, but it's been like this for decades and we still don't have policies in place to fix it. Congratulations on leaping the hurdle, but you shouldn't have had a hurdle to leap.
The government defines the poverty threshold in a very problematic way. The poverty threshold is so low that people can sometimes go above it just by working a little bit more, but they're still not making nearly enough money to survive. So, faced with losing certain benefits and working more at an uncertain job, or working less and keeping benefits...people choose the sure thing.
Don't know if anyone else mentioned this but a food bank might be able to help you get better nutrients.
deusset · 1 points · Posted at 19:51:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Having a hard ceiling in public benefits is horrible policy. I hope we can change it.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:01:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
[deleted] · 10 points · Posted at 18:05:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That involves having a free schedule, I'm trying to get into grad school so I can live in a dorm and have more stable living than a month to month lease, I work weird hours and I try to freelance as much as possible, sometimes it's simple like Postmates, sometimes it's doing admin stuff for my friends business and he pays me a bit
[deleted] · -2 points · Posted at 18:13:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
[deleted] · 12 points · Posted at 18:15:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I have my undergrad in physics, and if you can feed yourself better than ramen, rice, and popcorn for 200 a month I welcome your advice
[deleted] · -1 points · Posted at 18:34:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
[deleted] · 7 points · Posted at 18:37:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I use a rice cooker, ramen rice and beans are life, I live across the street from a grocery store and get some fruit every morning when I wake up. I just had a birthday and my family (not my parents, but my uncles/aunts and grandparents) sent me gift cards to Whole Foods and The Container Store so I can get some "furniture" and can hopefully spice up my diet every now and then.
It's in a different comment, but those are my rice, ramen, and popcorn are my staple foods I add variety, sorry for not listing everything I eat
Been reading all your comments.... My old church can food distributions to the needy for free once a week. You may be able to get free good from there which will save you 200.... and you didnt need to attend church just show up on the saturday that they were handing everything out...
Also with a physics degree have you looked into applying for utilities or oil/gas companies. Just the fact you know what V=IR should be enough to get you an interview for basic position making 40k+ a year....
Best of luck dude
Lesp00n · 0 points · Posted at 19:25:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You don't wanna end up with health problems
It's awfully hard to think about what might happen 20 or 30 years in the future when you're worried about your next meal.
Also that whole no way to store perishable food certainly puts a damper on things.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 19:27:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Lesp00n · 1 points · Posted at 19:49:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oh I'm very aware. I'm also however aware that the possibility of literally starving to death is a thing. And OP is one bad week away from legitimately having to think about that.
Perhaps instead of picking at him you should actually offer helpful advice. Like hey, here's a website with a dozen ways to flavor your beans and rice so you've got some flavor variety. Or suggesting that he not use the flavor packets that come with his ramen and instead get some low sodium bouillon.
But I mean, that's just me thinking that maybe polite suggestions will go further than tearing the guy down and wagging your finger about his health when he's obviously in a really tight spot. The hierarchy of needs is a legit thing and surviving comes far before living well.
Works the same way with Obamacare too. In NC if you make $47,000 a year as a single person you get $710 a month. Make $48,000? Absolutely nothing. So that's a huge loss ($8500 a year). They have a calculator to see how much you qualify for.
Can confirm. I make just under $49K and was super pissed at that last $2K screwing me over. My monthly Heath Insurance premium now costs more than the note on my car and almost half of what I pay on rent for a 1br/1ba apt in an average area.
have you considered that depositing that extra 2k into a traditional IRA and would then lower your taxable income to a point where you qualify for the subsidy???
From my understanding, this is the most correct answer. The number used to determine your benefits for the Marketplace is based on your Adjusted Gross Income, which is your Taxable Income minus your standard deduction and personal exemptions. So a Traditional IRA contribution will not count as income in this case.
partially correct here. but it's not based on your AGI.
the ACA uses it's own figure called Modified Adjusted Gross Income. MAGI
it factors social security income and other increases and deductions differently than on the tax return, but ultimately the tax return is what balances it.
[deleted] · 8 points · Posted at 18:39:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
the ACA actually uses a sliding scale, somewhat. if your state expanded medicaid, anywhere from 0 to 138% of the federal poverty line for your household side qualifies you for medicaid. if your state hates ACA and didn't expand, it is 0 to 100%.
from there, anywhere from 100/138% to 250% FPL gets you a premium tax credit AND deductible breaks. 250 to 400% equals a premium tax credit to help lower the monthly premium.
400 and over and you're deemed "making enough to pay your own way"
now, this isn't based off your standalone gross pay. it's based upon a complex figure called modified adjusted gross income. MAGI.
it does fun things like add back non taxable social security income, adds personal business income, interest, dividends, and takes out other adjustments, such as IRA contributions to lower taxable income, among others.
if you are started out at 250%, or more importantly 400%, you literally can play with these types of figures to reduce or increase your taxable income.
all of this is actually projected ahead of time. to get 2018 benefits, you project what you're going to do in November, December when you apply and sign up. of course, who knows what happens this 2018 year for you income wise. update your application with large changes along the way. it's all balanced when you complete your IRS tax return for the 2018 taxable year in the winter/spring of 2019.
tl:Dr - learn the ways you can adjust your ACA income to reflect your actual lifestyle and wants from the bill, or get a competent tax accountant that will do the brainwork for you AHEAD of time.
it's difficult for me to understand why this is the case given your thorough explanation and background, besides a simple assumption which implies that you are above the 400% threshold - in which case you are paying outright premiums.
This goes directly to the insurance company for the plan you have if it's even through the marketplace.
the ACA as it is designed is one thing. the rates hospitals and insurance companies charge directly are quite another.
the premium you would be paying if over the 400% threshold doesn't have much to do with "Obamacare" or the ACA as it should be called.
perhaps some more insight into your unique situation would help further the discussion?
My not so unique situation is that up until Trump took the teeth out of the IRS' ability to fine me for not having an Obamacare approved plan, I was going to pay a fine for not having an Obama approved health plan. That plan, in Ohio, a state with a governor who took all of the incentives and is playing ball with that shit law, affords me the opportunity to pay 20600/yr before I get anything more than a doc visit. I am disallowed to purchase catastrophic only insurance (which is basically what I have via Obamacare) for a reasonable price.
Do the math on what I'm paying right now for nothing. Multiply that out by 20 years. It's not OK. Obamacare is a massive redistribution that isn't fair at all to me or anyone who is young and relatively healthy.
That has to be for a family not one person. Before the ACA you might have had to pay that or worse for a single person with a pre-existing condition, but not taking pre-existing conditions into account it should be less for a single person. At the platinum tier, a 30-year-old nonsmoker will pay about $553 a month for coverage in 2017. That's 6,600/year and that's one of the high end plans and you say you want the lowest. Your numbers don't add up at all. Plus, all you are paying for health insurance can come out pre-tax.
Bottom line, I'm not saying you're lying, but 20600/yr is WAY out of what with what people on the exchanges are paying.
Also, before the ACA, a lot of the "catastrophic" insurance plans were scams anyway. They never really paid, because it's the catastrophic cases that cost insurers all the money anyway. A big problem was they'd find a technicality, pre-existing condition then deny coverage because you didn't list it. The plan you claim to want was likely so cheap because they didn't pay often, and then only after lawsuits, which isn't fun when you have a catastrophic medical problem.
Bottom line, if you're really paying 20,600/yr, you could do WAY better on the ACA exchanges.
huh? That doesn't make sense. He instructed the IRS to not enforce that part of Obamacare. Hate Trump all you'd like. But, don't be a moron and give the gov 900 that you don't have to.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 15:01:46 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I did my taxes before he did that and I am an honest person. So sue me.
being happily penalized by and handing cash to the federal gov for not purchasing something useless that you can't afford isn't exactly a great place to grandstand on morality.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:40:20 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
lol not happily. Lawfully. I read the rules for financial hardship and I didn't qualify so I didn't mark the box. Yeeesh you don't have anything to do today do you?
There are jobs in NC that pay $48,000 a year and don't offer health insurance?
say592 · 13 points · Posted at 19:01:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You could always have an employer that doesnt cover $710/month in insurance benefits. If your employer contributed $100/week to your insurance, you would still be in a worse off position.
In NC and all the other back-assward states, if you make $0 to some poverty # of $ per year, you get NO subsidy, because dickhead Republicans tried to "stick it to Obama" by opting outta free federal Medicaid expansion money.
That's not correct. If you're buying your own plan it has nothing to with Medicaid. Try using the link in my OP and trying it in California. At 47k you get a subsidy but at 48k you don't. In NC like other states you get a subsidy up to 400% the poverty level and then it cuts off. Same as other states. Medicaid applies to people making below the poverty line, if you're buying your own plan and making too much to qualify for a subsidy that's not related to Medicaid.
Not all states expanded Medicaid. That's what he's saying. Some states didn't expand Medicaid, so if we aren't also pregnant, under the age limit or disabled, we aren't eligible for that anyways.
And in GA specifically, if you make 0$/year, you don't get a subsidy for the options either. If you don't make at least around $15K/year, you don't get insurance or Medicaid here. You also aren't forced to pay the penalty for not having insurance either.
So the poorest of the poor, in the poorest states (the ones that all chose NOT to expand Medicaid) have not had an option under the ACA at any point.
That really is unfortunate. You have to be healthy to work, go to school, exercise and be productive. The states having choice was thrown in as a sop to conservatives. Actually the whole plan was a conservative plan, and it is well less than optimal. Democrats wound up getting no republican support anyway even though they implemented their own idea.
I don't think there is any hope for GA to expand medicaid in the current environment. You are a voter they don't really care about. 15k/year is SO low for no Medicaid. My heart goes out to those in GA.
not if you are smart and contribute to an IRA to offset the income. you'd apply for your projected income after planning for the IRA deduction. you get the subisdy, lower your healthcare premium, keep the money you would have paid as an IRA contribution in your own name, and save the marginal rate on taxes. if you're within barking distance of the 400% threshold you should be evaluating this every damn year. it costs you too much to not do it. respectfully, go get a competent tax accountant that understands the ACA like me.
if you're outside of the 5,500 it takes to qualify well... that's a shitty situation, but are you utilizing enough of a traditional 401k contributions to further reduce your income in addition to the traditional IRA to meet the subsidy if that's truly your aim??
do you own your own business? SEP IRA allows contributions of 53,000 or 25% of income.
there are ways to find it if you look well enough.
that's the type of tax planning turbo tax can and never will do. consider your situation and what your options are.
This is interesting and pertinent to the discussion, because there's a thing that's the opposite of a poverty trap, where crossing the line from 99.999% to 100% of poverty line income results in a massive social benefit of going from $0 to maximum health insurance subsidy.
tokol · 5 points · Posted at 18:11:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This also exists on the poorer side of things with the Medicaid coverage gap. The federal subsidies don't cover poor people because the system assumes that those folks are covered by a state-run Medicaid program. Unfortunately, the Republican party and Republican state leaders decided that undermining Obamacare was more important than letting poor people go to doctors.
I'm in a rural state, and I've had friends with treatable health issues move away specifically because of the Medicaid gap. At the same time, all the small town folk keep saying that the loss of young people is their number one issue. It's infuriating.
Riaayo · 2 points · Posted at 19:57:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Lucky you, in Texas it seems to just scale with what you make between like... 16k - 39k or so (no help under, no help over). Closer you get to that 39k the less they give you. And that's what, 8k under NC's cut off? And if you're making like 45k you'd still get $710 tax credit a month? VS if you made like 38k they offer you like fucking $2 a month.
Right. A few years ago I was unemployed for almost six months, so my estimate annual income was low enough that the plan was almost fully subsidized I got a minimal plan for $300/mo. Just recently I got laid off, and I expect to have another job soon, so my annual income is high enough that all I was offered was a seriously shitty plan for $1400/mo. I could pick up my old employer's much better plan for $1700, so why not.
I wish I didn't have to do this at all, the whole idea of having health insurance through employment is stupid.
If you make less than $48,000 a year you get a subsidy of $710 a month to help pay for health insurance. $710 a month for twelve months is $8,520 at the end of the year.
Say you make $47,000, all together that's $55,520. If you got a raise to $48,000 a year, the subsidy goes away and you have just your $48,000.
I do have a question. If I get my insurance through my employer, does this still apply to me? I'm assuming not since we're taking about Obamacare, but I'm a bit new to all this. TIA
No, if you get insurance through your employer the exchanges and credits don't affect that.
I wouldn't say "Obamacare doesn't affect you at all", because people saw their employer plans get more expensive due to the ACA requiring certain new coverage, but prices on those have been rising every year anyway.
So, if im thinking about this correctly, there is a valley/gully where more money may end up actually being less money in practice (I.e You make more, but the loss of benefits causes it to be a net loss)
Yup! If you want more info on it, look up "welfare cliff".
lurgi · 5 points · Posted at 18:03:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well designed systems don't have it, but (go figure), benefits aren't always well designed.
5rnie · 5 points · Posted at 18:45:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I haven't come across a single welfare system that doesn't have some form of welfare cliff in the system. If you have one I'd be really interested to know about it. (Seriously.)
lurgi · 2 points · Posted at 18:55:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
AFIAK, the EITC doesn't have a welfare cliff. Even if it does, a welfare system that phases out benefits over an income range should be able to avoid a welfare cliff (although now that I think of it, if some people benefit from multiple sources and others do not, you can avoid a cliff, but it would be hard to avoid a "steep slope", which would have many of the same problems).
gyroda · 2 points · Posted at 20:02:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
FWIW, if anyone wants to bring up the UK then there's a pretty steep cliff with Carers Allowance.
Happened to me. Break was at like $50k, for simple math. And yeah, it was like $150 per check until then. Then jumped to nearly $300. Not quite double, maybe like $250 or $275 or something. And yeah. I got a raise as a percentage and it took me to like $50,285. And I would up losing money all year in practical terms since health care went up like $125 per paycheck (26 times per year). I'd have been better off being bumped to just under $50k. The next year I got a promotion and pulled far enough ahead that I made up the difference in health care costs and started making more per paycheck again, but that bracket cost nailed me for 12 months making a raise effectively flat or a slight loss.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:02:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Exactly. Where I work, I have great benefits. As soon as I make a certain amount, I will have to contribute more money for the same benefits. It's not HORRIBLE though. If I hit that next bracket, I'll have to make a dollar an hour more to cover the additional costs, so when that time comes, I'll be sure to have that discussion with my employer.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 17:49:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, there are some nasty drops in the US benefits systems. If you're making between 20k and like 50k, you're actually "making" about the same... if you're like a single mom on section 8.
Also, many deductions are income based. For instance, once I hit 150K with my wife I could not longer deduct my Student Loan interest from law school. So, I actually did discuss raises with my boss, and basically skipped a raise that would have put me at about 153K, and waited until the raise was more than the tax cost.
solilo · 3 points · Posted at 17:32:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes, also potentially with retirement plans. $118,000 to $120,000 means you're no longer eligible for the full contribution to a Roth IRA.
mac-0 · 4 points · Posted at 17:50:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In the US, there is a "phase-out" range of income for nearly every tax benefit. With Roth IRAs for example, you are eligible to fully contribute while you make less than $118,000. If you make between $118,000 - $133,000 you can partially contribute. For every ~$3 you make over $118,000, you can contribute about ~$1 less than the limit. That means if you make $119,000, you can still contribute to $5,500 - (1/3 * $1,000) = ~$5,167.
This is true for most "cutoffs" you would find on an income tax return. For the most part, there aren't many circumstances where making $1 more and bumping yourself up to the next bracket or cutoff range would be undesirable. (Note that I am only talking about federal income taxes. There are many cases where you may be adversely affected by barely beating some income threshold, but most of those are things that don't actually come from the IRS).
Yikes, that stinks. Can you negotiate with your employer for a reduction in salary in exchange for some vacation time? Maybe an HSA account (I usually think they suck, but might be beneficial for a family of 5).
At some point you're going to have to spend money on your health though. If you're one of the lucky ones who don't then at age 65 you can use your accumulated HSA funds for insurance/Medicare premiums.
I'm in a fortunate enough position that I can likely take advantage of one. Many Americans find it difficult to acquire $500 for an emergency situation, and to have money sitting in an account for health when a car breaks down is not the best of scenarios.
Thank you though, for piquing my interest in it--I was under the impression that HSAs were essentially Flex spending accounts, and that they didn't roll over. You have been instrumental in changing my perspective with regards to that.
This is a good tip but most of the people I hear complaining about it do not look that in depth. They just look at the raw salary numbers and think they are losing out. Kudos to those who actually look at all aspects though, everybody needs to.
My brother is paid a salary that is just barely above the ceiling on non-exempt making it so they can work him as many hours a week they want without him getting paid overtime.
In most countries I'm aware of (primarily european) benefit cliffs are specifically legislated out. The benefits drop incrementally as you pass the threshold so while it's possible to say be £0 better off after a £2,000 raise it's theoretically impossible to be worse off.
Especially with disability benefits. In the U.S., if you are ever in possession of more than $2000 at once, all your disability benefits are ended, usually within hours. Even if you're saving to go to college or buy a wheelchair.
Noticeable dip in standard of living when I went from $9 and food stamps to $11 and none.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:00:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
True, but the comment was qualified with the "Tax brackets" statement. Medicaid or public assistance is another animal, entirely (and, obviously, an inconsistent one, at that).
Yeah, I'm on state health insurance, and if I start making more than I do now, I'll have to pay for insurance and/or pay for my medications myself, which will result in me having less money left over. That shit's expensive.
NvizoN · 1 points · Posted at 19:40:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is my problem. I have to be able to accept a job that allows me to make enough extra money to afford health insurance because I'm on Medicaid while I'm in school. I pay all of my own bills, but I can't afford health insurance. If I work more than 35 hours a week at my job, I make too much. So, by my math, I have to he able to find a job that's full time, that also pays AT LEAST 5 or 6 dollars more an hour than what I currently make in order to afford health insurance and not be worse off than I am right now. It's a horrible system, but I can't really do a whole lot about while being in school full time and out on my own.
tymme · 1 points · Posted at 19:40:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yep; I was in this situation with my last job. $16/hr was a nice wage, but after taking out work benefits, losing the assistance we had before, and adding student loan repayment back into the equation, it was actually better to be on SSDI.
geak78 · 1 points · Posted at 19:42:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is why we need a gradual system. For every $2-3 you earn at a job you lose $1 of benefits.
tinman3 · 1 points · Posted at 19:54:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is also the case for certain "phase-outs". Many deductions are taken away for the wealthy. A raise may mean no more deduction which could certainly less money in your pocket.
Yeah, that doesn't happen anywhere in western world but US.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:49:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
this is definitely true. I was caught in the real estate boom/bust of the 2000s and I lost my home. Since I made 64K the previous year I could not get any benefits and ended up in the homeless shelter. I had to wait an entire year of making nothing and now I have a home, and every service is discounted. If I were to get a job (I am blacklisted so not a possibility) I'd need to make about 90K a year to get the benefits I enjoy today. It's not just medical and leisure center and transit discounts, I get free legal advice any time I need it, I have a lawyer working on my child's abuse case. If I made even 18K a year I would not qualify for anything and would be expected to pay tens of thousands in legal fees to accomplish the same thing. The only quality of life difference, after all these years, is I take the bus instead of drive a car but I live in the city, so. All the money I get goes directly back into the local economy anyhow to pay for civic services and buy food and clothing. Many people are making money from my existence, I just don't get to keep any of the cash myself, I just get to live.
Yep, something similar just happened to me. Got a $1,500 raise, lost my ACA subsidy, and now make $25 less per pay period. Needless to say I was pretty disappointed to find that one out.
tofu98 · 0 points · Posted at 18:47:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Your 20% seems a bit off. To get to the highest bracket, you have to go through the others as well. Without deductions, you'll wind up paying slightly less than 39% on your standard income.
The 20% comes from deductions. What people tend to get upset about is that income from investment (capital gains) is taxed at a far lower rate (something like 15%) than other types of income.
Maybe the "lose money" isn't lost income, but lost subsidies?
[deleted] · 6 points · Posted at 18:17:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I had a coworker who turned down a promotion that would have seen him move into the low 100's from around 90k. He said taxes would eat it all up. I've only heard the tac bracket issue from people like him.
[deleted] · 37 points · Posted at 17:19:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you don't accept a raise because you are concerned about having to contribute to society, you didn't deserve the raise.
[deleted] · -12 points · Posted at 17:35:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The difference is going from hourly to salary usually. If you move into an exempt status they can work you more hours without paying you any overtime (in most states). So maybe you'd make more on paper, but they won't pay you for a lot of extra hours.
That's usually the complaint I've heard, not that people don't understand how tax brackets work.
There's a cutoff salary for when you legally have to make overtime. I know restaurant managers who work 80 hours weeks and got a raise to that exact figure.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:19:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you don't accept a raise because you are concerned about having to contribute to society, you didn't deserve the raise.
Samhang · 3 points · Posted at 17:31:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not completely true, personal allowance reduction for salaries over 100k can make you worse off until your salary exceeds a certain point again. Otherwise it's true.
While interesting that they have essentially no tax and special tax laws, its still not a country that demonstrates a reduction in income from getting a "raise" or where the tax bracket decreases your net income.
burf · 9 points · Posted at 18:04:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Everywhere. I don't think there's a single country on the planet where you would actually lose money by having a higher gross income.
Bonuses not from your company but from the government. You might end up paying more in insurance, medical care, etc. due to you not falling into a low enough income level to receive those things at a cheaper rate.
I wouldn't really call that a poverty trap. That's the government saying now you make enough money to be self sufficient. But you're right it shouldn't be a hard cutoff it should be a gradual lessening in aid so there's no breakpoint like that.
Utkar22 · 3 points · Posted at 17:17:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think what they are getting at is that a lot of social programs are not as marginalized as tax brackets are. For example, a social program may say "if your income is < $30k you get a stipend of $200/month". The catch is that if you go from making $29,999 to $30,000, you lose the $200/month because you made an extra $1/year.
This isn't true of all programs but many of them have at least one income bracket that is poorly setup like this.
Mtnn · 4 points · Posted at 17:53:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Canadian programs generally are not all or nothing. You don't lose your entire benefit by entering a new bracket. It's reduced in steps until you hit substantially higher income at which point it becomes zero.
True that, but if you look at each step individually youll sometimes see disincentives. Why work an extra hour when ill make the same pay diebto clawbacks? Why 2 hours? Or 3? Ive only seen this at low income in Canada ie. 20000 or less a year, but it's unavoidable afaik with safety nets.
[deleted] · 11 points · Posted at 17:30:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In the us there are programs like Medicaid and childcare assistance (as well as I think food stamps which if you're not careful you can be disqualified for living with roommates who push the household income up past a certain threshold, this one is tricky). For example, say you're a single parent with two kids. You might get subsizided childcare so that you can continue to work and not need more food stamps or housing assistance. But if you get a raise or bonus that puts you above a certain amount then you might lose that childcare benefit, so you would need to find your own childcare which might be so expensive that you cannot afford to work the job even at the increased pay. So that person might lose the job due to their inability to find a childcare option that they can afford / missing shifts too many times as a result. When that happens they might just start the whole cycle over. Apply for interim benefits to get by while looking for a job in the salary range that will qualify for childcare assistance or at a much higher pay that will pay for the childcare outright (less likely). I've heard of businesses generally being pretty understanding about this and actually checking with employees to make sure that a pay raise won't screw them out of some vital benefit (super fucked up). Insurance can be like this too. In the us I believe this can vary state by state. If you're getting health insurance through the exchange then depending on the subsidy structure for your market you might not be able to afford a plan if you make just enough to no longer qualify for subsidies.
In the US we call this the welfare cliff. Someone who makes very little might be better off not taking a small raise because they then lose all their benefits.
For taxes no. But you can be worse off because of losing benefits.
I had a co-workers who would never work more than X hours a week, or Y hours a month (can't remember if it was weekly or monthly) because she was a single mom and would lose access to certain benefits once she made over a certain amount.
Making 25k (GBP) instead of 22k annually is awesome, unless it leads to you losing 3k or more in benefits.
The state child health insurance program in my state was:
$15/ month per family if under 200% of that year's poverty level income
Or
$150 per kid if over.
I was on the margin, with 4 kids. I could have afforded to pay them $150/month total. But no, it was $15 or $600. I couldn't pay $600 even if I was making a little over the max, obviously.
If they had charged more to me and everyone like me who could have paid more, then they could have more money for the program, and wouldn't have to have such a sharp cuttoff.
Sliding scale makes so much more sense.
[deleted] · -3 points · Posted at 18:20:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Their significant other could have died, got disabled or skipped town. Shit happens. I mean, they also could've had a bunch of kids they never could afford in the first place, but I try not to think that way when I don't know one way or another.
4 kids with the same guy, over 16 years, while we were both working. Their dad decided to become a raging abusive unemployed racist asshole as his midlife crisis.
And with 6 people in the family, even with a good job I wasn't over 2x poverty level.
Certainly could not afford insurance but could get it for the kids through the state program.
If you think this is an uncommon situation, or that you are immune or above it, i will hope for you that you don't learn the truth the hard way.
After I got out of the Army and started working in the private sector and making some actual money we had to pay taxes for essentially the first time ever. The way I put it to my wife was that we'd had my salary and our benefits paid for by other people's taxes for essentially our entire adult life, and that now it was our turn to do it for someone else's family.
Don't get me wrong, its no fun ponying up a percentage of what you earn each year, but there is a reason for it and we could hardly complain after benefitting from it for so long.
If you are just talking about income tax, you are right. There are no "tax cliffs" where earning $1 more will cost you more than $1 in taxes. However, there are "welfare cliffs" where making $1 more from a job or some other source of income costs you more than $1 in welfare benefits.
Ohh, this makes so much more sense! Thanks for explaining it this way. I just kind of went along like "Yeah, okay. People say it's good to take a raise." so i did, but now I'm off of my free health insurance, which is a huge bummer that is getting really hard to afford.
You will never be worse off for accepting a raise.
You are right about the actual tax-brackets, but not this conclusion. Benefits, tax credits, and special deductions often have income qualifications that have hard lines that if you cross, you lose that benefit.
It is a possibility with welfare programs, though. This is especially prevalent in poor, rural areas of the US. It's a really sad system, but it'd what you need to do in places like my hometown, where a $10/hour job is considered really good, and most are part-time. If we didn't have Medicare and food stamps, we would all live in incredible poverty.
You will never be worse off for accepting a raise.
Similar topic....employers like mine base health care premiums on pay bands. A raise that puts you in a higher pay band, needs to cover the increased cost of your health care premium. Otherwise, the employee could actually lose money on the raise.
Ollyvyr · 3 points · Posted at 17:43:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I've heard a number of people over the years refuse to work overtime because Uncle Sam is going to get most of the extra money and it's not worth it. I never really got the logic to that. Uncle Sam isn't going to take so much that you still won't come out ahead.
There is someone I work with like that. He's right at the end of a steep tax bracket. In effect he's takes a 10% pay cut on overtime because it will all be in the next bracket, and that isn't worth it to him.
Good one! I have heard people say they would lose all the money they would earn from working overtime to taxes, so there is no point. What they don't understand is they are simply being taxed at their highest tax bracket for the year, which would be somewhere between 15% and 30+% depending on their income. It is never greater than or equal to 100%, though.
True for brackets, but for tax credits, deductions, Roth IRA, and other stuff that goes into taxes, there are hard caps and phase outs that can cause a higher effective tax beyond what your raise would be.
What you describe would generally affect a small number of people towards the edges of the income bell curve, I still think this is an important misconception to clear up for most people. The easiest way I've found to explain the concept is using bucket imagery for the different brackets
Incorrect. The median family in the US has an income around 45$k. Most of the benefits cut out between 20-40k, so this impacts most Americans /that pay taxes/.
I immediately CTRL+F'ed for this one. I can't believe how many people don't understand this.
If you're in the, say, 33% tax bracket in the United States, you're only in the 33% tax bracket for your income from ~191k to ~$416k. The money you make up to that 191k is taxed, incrementally, at lower tax brackets.
But people don't fucking get that and act like the minute that person goes from making $416,700 to $416,701 they pay 35% on the whole amount instead of 35% on the dollar difference.
nah not even close. theres a magical line of 29k salary for single parents that if they step over they start losing access to chunks of 30k worth of benefits.
there was a study for this, and its not very linear. things will not be fair in aggregate and its naive to expect it to work out that way. don't listen to random redditors and do your own research.
if you are at 25-60k DO NOT TAKE EVERY RAISE AT FACE VALUE and do the calculations your self. you don't want to be out healthcare and free lunch for your kids cause you took a 2k raise.
it completely breaks the initial premise that you take every raise. it patently false for the people it matters to most. stop trying to rule lawyer for shitty advice.
the advice is bad and op should feel bad for passing it out full stop. the fact that it's technically true makes it even worse, because someone who is vulnerable will follow it and fuck themselves over.
I agree with you that taking a raise isn't always beneficial. I wrote a econ paper in college on the welfare cliff and how it traps people so I'm not arguing against that. However the original post was about tax brackets and how people think making more money makes you worse off when it comes to taxes.
worse off in money is worse off in money, don't take the raise if it will hurt you.
the entire op is wrong and anybody who takes the advice might be screwed. shitty advice should be called out especially if its correct in a technical sense and incorrect in real life.
Nurum · 2 points · Posted at 18:01:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There is a spot (around $85k in the US IIRC) where you loose a lot of tax credits and other breaks so a minor raise will actually cause you to take home less. For the most part though you are entirely correct.
gimp2x · 2 points · Posted at 18:02:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
you can be disqualified from things like a RothIRA, mortgage programs, etc- a few extra thousand could certainly cost you more than its worth, but not in "taxes"
My mom literally quit her job for this reason. My dad is the bread winner and she just worked on the weekdays to have something to do and have a little more expendable income. Then it became a tax bracket thing where her not working made them more money than working. Seems crazy
Incorrect. There are two very small, very specific exceptions:
1) Between 20-40k, there are a number of benefits that if you only marginally exceed while using the benefit, you're worse off. (E.g., a 2k/yr benefit cutting out at 30$k, getting a 1500$ pay raise from 29$k will set you back).
2) Around 90$k, if you have student loans, you're no longer able to deduct the loan. So if you were are 88$k, a 3$k pay raise might eliminate a 9$k deduction.
In all other cases, yes, idiots misunderstand how taxes work.
fj333 · 2 points · Posted at 19:00:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you have a lot of student loan and medical debt, your income moving past a certain point will hurt you in taxes a lot. As well getting married, if it puts your combined income past that point. My wife loses probably 10k a year that she can't claim on debts she's repaying, since we got married.
snoweel · 2 points · Posted at 19:55:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Most people don't understand this when tax policy is being debated.
Geta-Ve · 2 points · Posted at 19:57:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Can any Canadian chime in with how it works here?
RoHbTC · 3 points · Posted at 16:49:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But if that raise comes with new responsibilities it may not be worth it to you personally.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 17:57:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Joe the Plumber became famous because he didn't understand this concept while talking to President Obama.
100% absolutely, it's the basis of the commonly held false belief that the rich only donate to charity so they can pay less tax. The implication is that it provides them a net gain.
Well there are tricks the rich can use to do just that but they are... quasi-legal at best, just hard to notice. Like donating to your own charity and using it to pay for flights to cities you would have visited anyway, or donating objects "worth" an amount in excess of what you actually paid for them.
It's not just 'donate money, pay less than the amount donated in taxes as a result! Savings!'
It's not just 'donate money, pay less than the amount donated in taxes as a result! Savings!'
That genuinely seems to be the popular perception on it though, I've had that specific argument on reddit several times and in one case iirc the other guy simply would not believe it no matter what evidence was shown. It almost seems to be religious in it's believers, perhaps as some twisted subconscious personal justification as to why they don't donate money!
You're partially wrong yet reddit does seem to love circlejerking this one.
Lets say that people that earn 100K or less qualify for tax breaks and welfare assistance worth 8K. If they accept the raise, they now earn 105k, meaning they no longer qualify for 8K in welfare assistance, meaning they have 105K in total, where they previously would have had 108K in total (100K wage and the 8K benefits).
Something reddit loves to forget is that tax brackets are not the only thing that determines how much you have left, sometimes you get something in assistance or tax breaks or whatever. A small raise can push you over the limit so you no longer qualify for those benefits and you may end up worse than before.
TLDR: Sometimes you WILL be worse off for accepting a raise.
A lot of people who think they'll lose money going into a higher tax bracket aren't getting any benefits. They just truly don't understand how tax brackets work.
That's true but most those things aren't happening at 100K they're happening down around 20 or 30 k. Usually the argument I see is people that make around 80k saying well if I made any more I'd be taxed more, trying to feel better about not making more money.
The only income-based benefit I can think of up that high is the tax credit you can get for student loan interest paid phases out at 88 K I think
The only way you get less after earning more is when bonuses/commissions are factored in.
Example 1.
You earn $25/hr and you work a lot of overtime, 20 hours, so you make 40 hours at $25 and 20 hours at $37.50 for a total of $1750. Taxes take $350 (20% for easy math), you get $1400 minus insurance and other things.
Example 2. You burned yourself out so worked no overtime, but your commission pay comes in on this check and you earned $1000 for your hard work the prior week. 40 hours at $25 per, and another $900 bonus for commission puts you at $2000 earned, but your taxes are only 20% on the hourly pay and 40% on the "bonus" pay, so you pay $540 in taxes and take home only $1360.
It all evens out come refund season, where the source of the money becomes irrelevant, but on your paycheck, you have to move into a considerable bracket change for a large chunk of a similar total income (i.e. commissions and bonuses) to take home less net on a larger gross.
Same principle as when people take on a bad business to "get tax write-offs". Losing money, no matter what the tax advantage, doesn't help you. I'm always amazed about people who say these things.
There is strategy to an acquisition like that though, and it definitely involves taxes.
They probably oversimplify it, but there is some truth behind it.
djdadi · 1 points · Posted at 18:20:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'd say closer to 98% of people don't understand this. Hell, I didn't understand this until reddit. Pretty sure no one teaches this at schools in the US.
Imagine the wife makes 100k and the husband makes 50k. The husband is offer a raise of 100% but he'll take one 100% more work. If they're filing jointly the husband might want a different deal since the extra money he's making will be taxed different than the 150k they're currently making but he'll still be taking on 100% more responsilbity.
Someone forgot to take into account things like AMT
rwv · 1 points · Posted at 19:24:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not even! If you get a raise to $105k there is no way you'd be paying $100k tax bracket because of deductions. I'm pretty sure for 99% of people the "pre-tax income" would take your adjusted gross income below $100k.
gerbs · 1 points · Posted at 19:32:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Only true for higher income brackets. Poor people can literally be punished for taking a raise. We faced this problem as a family a few years back: It was cheaper to be unmarried and keep two separate "households" so that she could qualify for MinnesotaCare than it was for us to be married and live together.
Let me illustrate this with a hypothetical enrollee: Debra. Debra is 35 years old and lives in Minneapolis. She works full-time at $10.60 an hour, which comes to around $22,000 a year. As a one-person household, she can participate in MinnesotaCare until her annual income exceeds $22,980. Debra’s annual MinnesotaCare premiums cost her about $528.
Then Debra gets a small raise at work: 50 cents more per hour. Debra’s income rises to $23,000 and she needs to purchase a private insurance plan instead. Even after tax credits, the average premium will total $1,587 per year. That increase eats up her entire pay raise… but there’s more. Her out-of-pocket expenses could be thousands of dollars each year. The plan with that “average premium” has an out-of-pocket limit of over $3,000. Accepting that pay raise could actually be a massive financial step backwards for Debra.
This is from 2014, but it's still true today. We faced it last March trying to find insurance for my wife. I now have a much better job that pays 100% of healthcare for our family, so we don't have to worry, but it's something a lot of families will deal with.
Glad you got healthcare, my point was taking a raise will never make you worse off from taxes. But if Debra is working full time, shouldn't she be offered benefits from her employer?
gerbs · 1 points · Posted at 20:55:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What triggers this false impression is when people get a bonus or work a small amount of overtime that pushed them just barely into the next tax bracket, most companies will tax the paycheck as if you made that amount of money on every check all year at the higher effective rate, so you could theoretically make $1 that pushed you to a higher tax rate and get paid essentially the same for more work, since most people in that situation are young retail employees they see that and think fuck that I ain't working for free, or divide their paycheck by hours worked and get a lower accounting of their hourly pay then if they hadn't worked overtime. What they don't realize is that they should have either adjusted their deductibles or else get that money back on their tax return.
Yeah, taxes really should be calculated using a formula that curves, versus brackets that fuck people over if they just barely making over the brackets threshold.
dackots · 1 points · Posted at 19:42:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Mostly true, though for some at the very bottom there is a narrow area where you can really be screwed on benefits. I'm trying to find the exact amount, but there's a certain gap/cliff type area where you lose the lower benefits (I think it's along the line of food stamps + ACA) and for the next $8-10k of income or so you barely breakeven.
objames · 1 points · Posted at 19:51:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
People just don't know what the word marginal means.
Usually true. There are, for example, I think, some allowances that you lose as you move into the top tax bracket in the UK so, you can actually be worse off with a small increase in your taxable income I think. If I am correct, it only affects pretty high incomes where you can probably figure it out or pay someone to advise you if you are making that.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:00:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Taxes no, but it can affect benefits. Obamacare subsidies, Medicaid, food stamps, affordable housing, etc. can all be lost if you cross a certain income threshold. Hence why a lot of people prefer being paid in cash, it's easier to hide the income and retain benefits (not to mention avoid income taxes).
radome9 · 1 points · Posted at 20:52:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Except once, in Sweden. Due to an oversight in the tax law the highest tax bracket had a tax rate over 100%. The author of Pippi Longstocking managed to hit this bracket and there was a bit of an outcry.
Still a good problem to have. You can buy things (mortgaged) to help you save on taxes or at least lower your effective rate. You can save more in IRAs, etc. And, you're helping pay for all the politicians you keep voting in.
If you really think about most subjects, it is very difficult and even ignorant to separate it into columns of black and white. Politics, ethics, religious ideology, conflict, whatever. The world is complex and you have to accept that to really get to the truth of a matter.
Edit: a lot of good points sent my way! I just wanted to clarify that I'm not saying there cannot be a 'right' and 'wrong' in any given situation. I am, however, suggesting that too many people assume all matters can be easily organized into opinions that are only-right and only-wrong. There are tons of gray areas people just disregard in the pursuit of having the "right" opinion on something.
Also many people believe what they believe because of the people around them. Your belief on safety of nuclear power, global warming, public healthcare, Israel - Palestine, GMO food, vaccinations, gun control, religion etc are usually because of where you live and the wider culture around you NOT because you sat down with an open minded and no bias and looked at all the evidence to arrive at a conclusion.
You aren't smarter than someone who holds an incorrect view just BECAUSE you hold a correct one.
Psychology has shown we make judgement calls and then back them up with evidence that supports us.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 18:17:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You're not one of the 'many people' then.
[deleted] · 911 points · Posted at 15:38:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There was a thread here on ask Reddit about trashy things. There was a comment about how piercing a child's ears was terrible and it got 100s of upvotes. Some people responded about how it's completely normal in their cultures and gave their reasons and explained how no one had a problem with it. But typical redditors just tried to shout louder than everyone with their ethical argument as if it was objective fact. Like, I get your argument, and I get your ethics, but they aren't universal.
You can see it play out in numerous arguments online, this need to feel righteous and superior without a shred of self awareness and pretending that their idea about what is ethical or not is fact.
Yeah, the logic is that if you pierce them young you as the parent can clean their ears and make sure there are no infection or problems.
My sister had 2 infected piercings when she was a preteen because she wasn't taking care of them properly (because preteens are stupid).
If you pierce your kids ears young and they grow up not liking earrings they don't have to wear them, you are saving your kids a lot of trouble by getting out of the way early though.
Never said it was? I got my ears pierced when I was 7 and asked for them. I don't regret getting them pierced I'm just saying you're wrong to say they'll always close up.
This! It's gross and can be painful if I don't take extra care of my piercing holes, which I never asked for in the first place. I haven't worn earrings since I was old enough for my mother to stop forcing me to and still I have to care for the holes.It's been 15 years.
HerrApa · 4 points · Posted at 18:47:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Or parents could like stop forcing their bodyideals on their children.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:53:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
LOL I've lived through a lot of parent-forcing-their-body-ideals on me and let me tell you, ear piercing is about the most minor form of that shit ever. Try some anorexia instead next time
HerrApa · 1 points · Posted at 20:45:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So there exist something worse therefor we should not care about less awful things. I never said it was the worst possible thing.
Parents murder their children or force them in to slavelabour so anorexia aint that bad...../s
[deleted] · 23 points · Posted at 17:39:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm 28 and still have a hole in my left ear from when it was pierced in 4th grade, I haven't worn an earing since I was 16 but it's still there.
Still, does it inhibit your daily life in any meaningful way? Even if it didn't close, it's not like it's hurting anything by existing. People seem to be treating this like FGM, but in this instance it's rather harmless. You could argue the ethics of it, which I'm not really debating, but just from a convenience vs complication standpoint this is a relative non-issue.
I don't wear earrings anymore, but mine get infected all the time :( It's baloney I have to like clean them with special ear cleaning stuff and can't just "ignore" them. If I'd had a choice they never would have been pierced in the first place.
This is what I was fishing for though, a legitimate reason why this could be problematic. Is this something that a lot of people experience getting them done as a child? I'd never heard of continuing to get infections from piercing after removing the piercings themselves.
I've had it suggested to me the big issue is that my mom had it pierced with a gun at the mall, so it doesn't heal the same way a needle piercing does. The needle piercing takes out a hole of the lobe, whereas the gun just kind of jabs the earring through. So my friend suggested dirt is probably getting caught in the ear hole in a way it wouldn't if it had been pierced with a needle, and suggested I get them re-pierced with a needle to see if it helps.
Considering doing it but not thrilled. But definitely worth a shot if it means I could take care of them until they heal and ignore them.
If they are constantly becoming infected (and you have insurance), have you considered seeing a general surgeon to have them surgically closed? I know this may seem extreme, but I had a cyst in one piercing as a teen that kept getting infected. I had the cyst removed and the hole sutured shut as an in-office procedure. Because it was sutured by a professional, and I took care of the site, it closed well and did not continue to get infected. I eventually chose to re-pierce the ear and haven't had any problems with it since.
It may be worth it. And because constant recurring infections, insurance may cover it.
Yeah, it's been 15 years since I've worn ear rings and I have partially closed holes. They collect dead skin cells and sweat and if I'm not extra careful cleaning then, they get infected. It's not the most awful thing but shit, acting like it's just a hole that changes nothing is ignorant.
I'm not sure if this will help, but did it ever heal properly? I had mine pierced young but got infected really bad so I just let them close up, turns out I'm allergic to some metals. The next time I got them pierced I wore gold or surgical steel. Then after getting through that healing period I haven't had any more problems not wearing earrings. They do still get irritated when I do wear them though so I just try not to leave them in so long.
[deleted] · 15 points · Posted at 17:54:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
They all feel that it is affecting their life. Doesn't matter if it really is. The mind works like that; focuses on perceived lack. This is the type of thing where you wish you didnt care about when you wake up paralyzed from the neck down. Ok that's dramatic, but the point I'm trying to make is that as long as people continue to not look at the big picture of their life and fighting against everything they think is bad the real big things, like corporations controlling everything and whatnot get worse. It's the perfect example of giving the little people stupid shit to worry about so they don't notice what's really going on.
The main point is that it is all subjective. Trying to make everyone conform is a monumental waste on energy that could be devoted to so much more. Seeing people outraged on the internet about such things is just amazing.
Is anyone who had their ears pierced as a kid actually complaining though? I understand the lack of bodily autonomy as a child is problematic in general terms, but this does seem to be a bit much in terms of policing what you can and can't do with your own kids.
Hell, I'd have preferred if I had mine done as an infant. I got mine pierced as an adult and keeping them clean and avoiding sleeping on them during the healing process was a pain in the ass, it would have been so much easier if that was all done before I could even remember it.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:24:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
We're in complete agreement. Having an authoritarian force determining what choices you can or can't make it insane because the whims of the people are fickle and judgments are subjective. There are seriously people who believe that baby formula should be prescription because all babies deserve breast milk. Every few decades these types of public opinions change.
[deleted] · 4 points · Posted at 18:51:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No I really don't care, I don't care that I'm circumsized either but who am I to say it should be allowed? But somebody else might care and if even one person wishes they weren't we shouldn't allow parents to make those decisions.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:10:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
We let parents make far worse decisions than those. But I agree with no circumcision anyway. No piercing? Meh.. I personally wouldn't do it, but go nuts. If you're allowed to put your little kid in ballerina shoes and mess up their feet for life a little poke through their ears doesn't seem so bad.
My ears were pierced as an infant but my parents stopped putting earrings on me when I was 2 or so. I can't actually remember having holes in my ears but I still have light scars on my earlobes where they healed up. They feel like nothing more than day old mosquito bites, except with no itchiness. So really, no harm done (but sometimes I'm able to use them as a talking point since nothing else about me is interesting).
I mean, you make a good point. I think I'm going to get my baby 3 piercings in each ear. No harm in having holes, right?
Oh wait, that's not "normal," so that makes it not okay.
Babies are humans, and they will become adults who think and make decisions on their own. If they want piercings then, that's up to them, but while they're children, it's parents' responsibilities to ensure they stay as intact and healthy as possible to enable that kind of independent decision-making.
As someone who had their ears pierced as a kid and loves piercings now, I wish my folks had let me decide it on my own as an adult. Not everyone agrees with me, but that's the point. It's a permanent body mod, even if you let it close up. Let the kid make the decision when they're an adult.
It’s a hollow needle, true, but it works more like a very tiny scalpel. It just cuts a slit in the tissue, that heals in a round shape around the post of the jewellery. However it’s done, though, piercing very young children is an issue for many reasons - one not addressed here is that the ears grow a lot through the beginning stages of life and a piercing placed well initially might look absolutely horrendous after a few years.
Really depends. As a teen I pierced my entire ear from lobe to cartilage with a hollow point needle. I wore earrings in every hole for probably 5-7 years but now haven't worn any earrings in over a decade. I just checked and about half of them are totally closed up and the other half the earring slid through with no resistance.
This isn't universal. Well-healed piercings tend to never fully disappear. They may close, but they leave a dimple or indent. Some people's ears will never close once you get past 8g, and some close just fine at 0g.
It all depends on the person. Similarly, a person's preference differs from that of others', so it's best to just let them decide when they're older.
MVWORK · 4 points · Posted at 18:13:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I got pierced with 14g and they haven't closed. Standard is 16g (one size difference).
Noli420 · 5 points · Posted at 17:32:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I would as well, but for different reasons than the normal. Using a gun at the mall is dangerous and unsterile, and those are the only places I have seen that will do it before 16, even with a parent present
I work in a tattoo shop, and this is how we operate. You don't get your kid's ears peirced when you want them pierced, we wait until the kid can ask for him/herself.
Imagine if tattooed babies were culturally normal. Jesus.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:32:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's nicely black/white. What happens if your daughter asks to have her ears pierced when she's 3?
Idk guess I'll cross that bridge when I get to it, I reread my comment and I'm suprised no ones got on my case "what if your son wanted his ears pierced?"
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 17:49:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Eih. It honestly sounds like you just default to that stance to please the Reddit community.
I don't have kids, but have you ever heard of the expression that it's easier to raise a child when you're not a parent?
Sounds a bit unfair to the guy. The obvious response (as I see it) is that a 3 year old can't make decisions that will permanently affect them and weigh up the consequences properly. What age is appropriate? Well I don't particularly think kids are well placed to choose school subjects that will affect their future and close off certain doors at 13/14 but they can. I see ear piercing as something that is less severely affecting than that (and given decreasing age of sexual activity you have to rely on their judgement earlier and earlier), so that might be a good age to draw the line.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:01:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Maybe a little unfair, but I think people are stripping the actual action from all context whatsoever to push an agenda.
We're talking about piercing ears, and not even the edgy stuff, and people are talking about it like it's circumcision.
I mean, I agree with the general idea of not doing permanent changes to your kid before they can even consent... but piercing ears? Are you kidding me?
You don't know what sort of consequences it will have in their life and making it permanent means they have no say over the matter. Two things:
1) I don't think I should be able to do it to my kids. By that I mean I don't think I should change something about their physicality permanently and that's a principle I apply to my parenting. Since it's a principle I don't think I should make exceptions because it makes the principle worthless. I don't want to have to argue extra long about the prospective issues with a tiny tattoo on their ankle because I let them have their ear pierced followed by a bigger tattoo on their arm just because I didn't draw the line firmly in the sand. That's where I've drawn the line and it makes it a lot easier to argue the point later down the line.
2) I know that at some point my kids might decide they don't like me. There's almost an inevitability to this as they become teenagers and rebel against authority, but I don't want to make any decision that might make them any more resentful of me if I don't see it as necessary. Sure, sometimes I might fuck up, but this is one of the easy calls for me in this regard because it's easy to draw that line.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 22:24:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Drawing big thick lines in the sand is never a good idea.
E.g. Regardless of the situation my 4yo isn't allowed to play with the jobs of the oven, or cross the road on his own, neither of them are allowed to get in a stranger's car, I'm not going to teach them a prescribed religion or force them to adopt my political views, I won't ever refuse to talk to them about something if they ask a question, and so on.
It's nice to think that every situation is malleable but in pretty much every situation in life we draw a red line somewhere.
Regardless, I didn't really draw a red line. I suggested a specific age range where I think they're adult enough to make a decision for themselves. If they are mature enough earlier then that's something that really is flexible, but I have my reasons (which I think I stated fairly clearly). If it's clear that they have a grasp of what the concept of permanent body alteration is then sure, we can chat about it and I might say "fine, go ahead", but I don't see any reason to just roll over and let them do something on a whim when 90% of their decisions change within two hours.
hcgator · 1 points · Posted at 18:33:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I will wait until my son is old enough to make that decision as well.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 18:19:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Piercings and tatoos are permanent changes to the body, though.
Same reason I don't have piercings or tats. I know I'm likely to change as I keep growing and maturing, so I don't want: "420Yolo" tatted on my back when I'm 37 now and suspect the Yolo crowd died out living their one life only once and ending it throughout whatever daredeviling they did.
No reason to be rude. You can have plenty of choices over your life at that point. Not necessarily good choices, but you can.
Good parents allow a lot of self expression and experimentation, as long as it is safe of course. A child can make a decision to have their ears pierced, it doesn't matter that the reason behind it might be shallow.
I knew a few kids like this. They picked out their clothes, their nick name, vacation spot, hairstyle and yes, ear piercing. It's a cultural thing. And it's not like they are allowed to harm themselves physically or mentally.
I was 5 when I had mine done and I completely remember it being my choice. My mom never pushed for me to get it done and asked me several times if I was sure. I had been begging to get them done.
After, I had a lot of infections from picking at them (I sometimes still have problems with them). But I'm glad I had it done then. Overall perfect 5/7. No regrats. Would pierce again.
I can't argue that you wanted it or not, but I question the ability of a 3-5 year old to fully judge the impact of something like that. Are their brains developed to the point where they can responsibly make that decision?
MaIakai · 13 points · Posted at 17:14:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No they can't forsee the possible outcomes. But giving them a choice is a good thing. There are a whole myrid of positive benefits on this. You want to continually provide children options to teach cause and effect.
In addition to wanting piercings at 5, I was also born with a large birthmark/mole over my eyebrow. My parents were going to have it removed for cosmetic reasons before I started school. I did not want them to do this at that time. I didn't think there was anything wrong with me.
Turned out that the mole started changing colors, they thought it was cancerous, and that needed to be removed when I was 5 for those medical reasons. I had to be put under. I still remember how scared I was.
That also turned out to be a perfect 5/7. I'm so completely grateful that that was done when I was a kid because I'd be too afraid as an adult.
So, I guess, yeah kids should be allowed to have choices and make their own decisions for certain things (with in the scope of parental/guardian supervision). And parents should also be able to determine what is best for their children at the time. It isn't a black and white issue where at a certain age you magically have the ability to take responsibility for your actions. It's something that needs to be taught and that kids need to learn. They learn by making decisions (and receiving consequences if applicable).
Maybe not every 3-5 year old should get piercings but there are certainly some where getting that done is completely fine.
Let's take it a step deeper. What about babies? 1 year olds.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:36:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I would agree for other decisions but getting your ears pierced is so inconsequential I don't get why this argument even exists. I mean... if you don't like it later on, just don't wear earrings and the hole will close up eventually.
I think there is this cultural thing around physical alterations that our society views as a big deal. Though I understand and concede to your point that it's not permanent
How about we don't punch holes in children unless medically needed?
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:39:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I remember when I was four I begged my parents to let me get my ears pierced because I wanted to wear pretty earrings. I don't see the harm in that? I can maybe see people objecting to infants getting piercings, but even then I don't think it's anything consequential enough to permanently scar them if they turn out to not like it.
What's wrong with clip-ons? Because you could say the same for a child havig a lip or nose piercing at the same age. And from personal experience it gave me a severe phobia of needles, same with some friends.
wtf-m8 · 0 points · Posted at 18:29:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't really understand that "logic", as parents are still responsible for the well-being of their children until they are adults. Your parents not taking care of your sister's health is an example of nothing but poor parenting.
This has nothing to do with my views on piercing children. I'm not a parent so I am indifferent as far as that goes, as long as they're not gauging their ears or something extreme like that.
HerrApa · -3 points · Posted at 18:44:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Parents should not get to decide something like that, you could nake rhe same argument about a tatoo, circumcision or other bodymodifications. The person would suffer less if you split their tongue as a infant but should someone else realy decide that for them? It's only accepted since you see it as normal.
heili · 10 points · Posted at 18:07:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There was a thread here on ask Reddit about trashy things. There was a comment about how piercing a child's ears was terrible and it got 100s of upvotes.
And people call you a fucking lunatic and an anti-Semite if you say cutting off part of an infant's penis isn't OK.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:39:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You're allowed to think that, absolutely. The point is realizing that your opinions are subjective. Trying to ban something that billions of people worldwide do is just not a good idea for a variety of reasons. It surprises me that it is presented as a progressive argument, given that societies have been banning circumcision for thousands of years from the Greeks to the Soviet Union and the results were always negative.
As for the anti-Semite thing, you might not be aware of this, but the loudest anti-circumcision people are anti-Semites. Clearly, there are many people who are not and hold those views, but considering the fact that Jews make up less than 1% of the people who circumcise yet the anti-circumcision activists focus on Jews a lot more.
Phyltre · 1 points · Posted at 00:29:05 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I was circumcised and wish I wasn't. What do?
heili · 1 points · Posted at 00:59:24 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you were a girl, people would feel bad for you and say that such a barbaric practice be ended and call whoever did it to you monsters.
But I take it you're a man, so in that case they'll probably just insult you and call you a nutter who needs to get over it because it's no big deal and didn't harm you at all.
heili · 1 points · Posted at 00:56:52 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I take issue with infant genital cutting because an infant doesn't get a say inwhether a normal, healthy part of their body is removed and scarred without any immediate medical need.
Further, I don't think anyone has a right to impose their religion, whether it's a Jew, Muslim, Hindu, Christian, Scientologist, Jehovah's Witness, or anyone else to the extent that it causes permanent physical alteration of the body of a person who can't consent to that. If you think that's anti-Semitic, I suggest you think very hard about where your right to swing your fist ends.
[deleted] · 20 points · Posted at 17:14:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My 7 y/o daughter does not have her ears pierced. Neither is she Christened or Baptized. These are decisions she can make as an informed adult and not things I'm going to trust upon her.
[deleted] · 19 points · Posted at 17:20:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's good for you. I understand your reasoning and can respect that. As long as you're aware that the conclusions you came to are not unanimous among other parents nor are they objective fact.
[deleted] · -2 points · Posted at 17:40:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Absolutely. One of the girls in my daughter's class at school has her ears pierced. She's quite a tall and mature looking girl anyway and I think this only heightens that fact but that does not condemn them as bad parents or trash.
Personally I'm not going to judge someone's class by whether their child has its ears pierced. It's not a look I like or would choose but to each their own.
Parents who openly use foul language in front of the young children though... I'm afraid I'm judging you!
I understand where you are coming from but sorry, who are you to judge an adult cursing in front of their children? You dont know the person or their children.
I agree, but we were on the subject of not judging parents for piercings their ears... And then they just needed to add that they DO judge however for cursing. Felt it was unnecessary and also ive met too many pleasant children that hear their parents cursing and yell at them for it lol. Just feel like if youre gonna come on here and brag about not judging... Then dont judge...
Edit: sp
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:50:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:52:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think that's great.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:52:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think that's great and says a lot about your parents.
Zyrlex · 1 points · Posted at 20:25:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Especially if they truly believe unbaptized children will be tortured for eternity if they die. The ethics gets tricky if to the best of their knowledge they are doing the wrong thing. Is a good thing still good if you think you're doing something bad? Are you acting with good intentions if you believe the opposite? Did I take a sleeping pill? I went for a glass of water and I did consider taking one, did I?
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:26:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I had mine pierced as a toddler and I don't really see much of an issue of it unless you're getting it done at a mall with those piercing guns. They're not sanitary. I had all mine done with a gun and one of them (I got a second set as a teenager) got infected. I don't remember if my baby ones got infected, but I can't use my second set anymore because they burn and itch if I put any kind of jewelry in them.
Anyway, I digress- going to a professional tattoo and piercing studio to get it done with a needle by someone with training is best, no matter how old your little one is!
I personally dont think it is trashy but I think it is wrong to pierce anyone ears without their consent.
If the child is old enough to say they want it and is actually able to hold that belief and understand it, than pierce away.
However, there are many people who get their infant children's ear pierced, which to me seems wrong since an infant cant consent and doesnt understand why you are jabbing a needle through their flesh.
People might think it is trashy to peirce your childs ears because you are forcing your standard of beauty on them, and treating your child like an accessory or property rather than a person.
I didn't realize so many people expected me to get my baby's ears pierced until I got bombarded with questions as to why I haven't. Honestly, just thinking of it makes me uncomfortable and I'd rather not get it done until she tells me she wants it done. I didn't get mine until I was 7 and it was my choice. I don't even like having my daughter deal with the quick pain of her vaccinations, which are 100% necessary to me, so I don't really want to subject her to another (however little and quick it is) round of pain with unnecessary earrings. Let her be a baby for a while, and when she wants earrings and can be responsible enough, she will get them!
We waited until our girl decided that she was ready (at age 7), and had them done then. No skin off our nose to wait a bit on it, and she got the feeling of pride to make a "grown up decision."
Most of our parenting friends have fallen into the same pattern. Granted, we're mostly 30+, white, middle-class-ish, urban.
Personally I disagree just because I think it's better to expose kids to the society in which they live in. In my opinion it's much better to teach them to think critically and learn to form their own opinions.
Really? That's funny because I grew up going to church every week up until I was a teenager. I would hardly call myself a religious person today. Whether you realize it or not, in every society, people of all ages are bombarded with propaganda or ideals pertaining to just about anything. Whether it's a news medium pandering politics, a school system teaching a subjective curriculum, a clever ad influencing you to buy a product, or friend chatting about whatever. That's just a few things that impact the way people think, feel, and act. From my perspective popular media has a bigger impact on kids promoting narcissism and consumerism than any religion does in the US.
I mean, piercing a kids ears is probably one of the least important ways that you alter a kids life that has a huge impact. I've never thought twice about doing that. However, raising a healthy child is something that seems to be overlooked. An overweight child is one of the saddest and most infuriating things imaginable to me, i want to punch the parents in the face. It will leave them with physical and mental problems for quite possibly their entire lives.
One of the possible medical side effects is that piercing a baby's ears can lead to metal allergies. I also prefer a child who consents to a non essential form of body modification.
heili · 2 points · Posted at 18:08:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I personally dont think it is trashy but I think it is wrong to pierce anyone ears without their consent.
Slightly unethical maybe, and only then by the slightest bit, definitely not "trashy".
[deleted] · 12 points · Posted at 16:17:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The argument was about consent. Then of course they brought up circumcision and how anything done to a child's body without their consent is wrong. People tried explaining their cultural reasons, health reasons and they were shouted down. Some people chimed in to say they were perfectly fine with their ears having been pierced and were happy their parents did it when they couldn't remember. Then two people came in and were practically crying over how thy hate that their parents had their ears pierced and blah blah.
I mean, I get the argument but that particular ethical argument is nowhere universal, anymore than it being wrong to kill animals for food. People have disagreeing with their parents is not new, and most don't care but it's the loud minority want to tell everyone what to do because of their particular feelings.
Body modification without consent is wrong. Just because some cultures do it doesn't make it right.
[deleted] · 16 points · Posted at 16:29:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Wrong to you. I don't see what is so hard to understand about objective vs subjective. It's so simple. Just set your ego aside for a bit and try to understand that other people have their reasons and your reasons aren't more valid or right because they are yours. Sure, murder is objectively wrong across cultures. Sending someone to jail over a crime they never committed is wrong across cultures. Basic ideas like wanting to be alive are no brainers. The idea that you need to ask your kids permission for everything is definitely subjective.
In some cultures, pedophilia is accepted. Does that mean that when anyone says it's bad, we should really stand back and think "well, some people do it, so it can't be objectively wrong"?.
Just because some cultures do something, it doesn't make it something we should be open minded about. People and cultures can be wrong about things. People can do objectively wrong things without realising it. Western culture used to burn and hang people for being witches, when magic doesn't even exist. That was objectively wrong. Why can't other cultures do wrong things, or are they in some sort of protected class where everything they do is alright?
So can you just say that you don't believe pedophilia is wrong if it is of another culture? Because that's basically what you are arguing here.
You are literally saying that we cannot condemn it because "morals are subjective", which is stupid because morals can be objective. You can use logic and reason to form a moral system without subjective assertion.
Case in point, pedophilia is objectively wrong, because it is harmful to child psychosocial development, because of the disproportionate power balance between a child and adult, because of their inability to safely bear children, and finally because children are neither experienced or developed enough to give informed consent (that is, to fully understand the magnitude and/or specifics of their choices).
These are objective reasons why is wrong. Subjective reasons would be explanations like "Because God says it's wrong.", "Because it's disgusting", etc. They are subjective because they are based on personal feeling/inclination, not rational reasoning.
Uhmm saying by definition pedophilia isn't objectively wrong is not the same thing as saying you don't believe pedophilia is wrong. You can condemn things that aren't objectively wrong.
Which you ignorantly don't seem to understand.
Being harmful to child psycho social development, not objectively true. Often true. Not always. Plenty of cases where people turn out just fine. Thus your point is literally wrong.
Disproportionate power balance between a child and adult, an assumption. Not objective
Inability to safely bear children. Irrelevant.
Not being able to give informed consent. A subjective opinion. Informed Consent is not a literal thing. It is something that is defined. Thus...not objective
Again try reading a dictionary. Your problem is you don't know what the words you are using mean. Rational reasoning is not the same thing as being objectively true. That where your argument falls apart. You don't even know what objective means.
I reserve the right to condemn actions I deem immoral. Just because they occur in cultures other than my own does not excuse them from that.
Pedophilia, murder, rape, the stoning of homosexuals, Naziism, racism, sexism, all of these things can be acceptable in some culture, somewhere. They're still wrong.
Just because some people do it some where does not mean that they're acceptable, morally right, or shielded from criticism.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 22:53:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Good thing I wasn't advocating cultural relativism then.
Comparing murder and rape to asking your child for permission for everything is ridiculous. The idea that millennial parenting choices are objectively as wrong as massive human suffering caused by pedophilia and murder is laughable.
bodily autonomy is a pretty big deal. anyway, let's try this:
murder is objectively wrong across cultures.
because murder is defined as unlawful killing - there is no way for it to be right, because then it's something else.
try to understand that other people have their reasons and your reasons aren't more valid or right because they are yours
they are more valid and right because they come from a respect for people? some cultures are better than others, that should be clear
[deleted] · 5 points · Posted at 17:06:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes, murder is unlawful killing. I think I may be missing the point you were trying to make?
I said that people have their reasons that make sense to them, just because those reasons don't make sense to you does not make them wrong. You seem to think that you're being made to agree; you aren't. Just to have the humility to realize that your subjective ethics or ideas about what is moral are not universal. Not across cultures, and not even across people within the same culture.
There are people all around you whose reasons, beliefs, judgments are just as valid as yours are to you. They're subjective.
Well my friend, if you were paying any attention at all, this is exactly the kind of answer we are talking about. In what world? This world! Heck, there's probably 100 people within 10 miles of you right now who think that piercing a kid's ears is trashy! If you allow yourself to look at the world through the lens of a wider audience, you'll see and learn things you never thought were possible! Even if most of those things are wrong and stupid, at least you'll see why people believe in those things and how they came to those conclusions.
I've gotten into political arguments here where the replies end up devolving into something like "Yes well Republicans are objectively bad" and "There is no argument, believing in ____ is actually wrong."
Usually the argument is "Republiucans are objectively going against the will of the American people, and their own constituents," which often leads to hurting your non-wealthy voting base in some way.
Which is entirely true. All it takes is looking up the voting records.
Because plenty of people get their babies ears pierced and body modification without the individual's consent, which babies cannot give, is wrong
[deleted] · 9 points · Posted at 16:40:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The idea of asking your children for consent is definitely valid, more of a millennial parenting thing, but nowhere near universal. I have read about people who won't do the following because their children can't consent; cut baby's hair, pick up baby, kiss baby on cheek, vaccinate, etc
The list goes on and on. I understand where they're coming from and why that would be important to them, but maybe because my parents were more "old fashioned" I completely understand the opposite arguments. Plus a lot of millennial parenting ideas are not that great IMO. I think its normal for younger people to feel like they know everything, but time definitely teaches that life isn't black or white and there are many other perspectives and circumstances you've probably never considered.
It's also just not healthy mentally or emotionally to view life that way, you're bound to get angry a lot.
AP246 · 1 points · Posted at 19:40:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I agree in this case, but I also think it's perfectly ok to criticise parts of cultures, even those that aren't your own. That doesn't mean my opinion is objectively correct, but I should be allowed to say that parts of one culture are simply immoral in my view.
There was a comment about how piercing a child's ears was terrible and it got 100s of upvotes. Some people responded about how it's completely normal in their cultures and gave their reasons and explained how no one had a problem with it.
Methinks someone was composing a circumcision allegory.
[deleted] · 8 points · Posted at 16:32:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
To play devils advocate let's take vaccines. Now I have a bachelor's degree in biology but I certainly can't say I know vaccines well enough to state that their efficacy is something I understand fully in my own right, at some level I have to trust the scientific and medical consensus in the west. Similarly an anti-vaccine person doesn't have intricate enough knowledge of biomedical stuff to judge for themselves in most cases so they glean their perspective from other people. So in in way it's like you said, people absorb their world view from the people around them. I do believe however that it is inarguably better to put trust in the American medical association over an organic mom's blog and for the most part that's the separation. The ama is sometimes wrong of course but simply has far higher standards and holds itself more accountable than the average pro vaccine propagator.
In my experience, the main thing with those who are against vaccines isn't that people believe the medical experts endorsing them are incompetent....it's that they don't believe their motives. For example, we have had the super carb-heavy food pyramid pushed on us for WAY too long, not because the government actually thought it was healthy, but because of extensive bribery/lobbying by the grain and cereal organizations.
It's more a matter of questioning motives, not competence. And since we know politicians have a nasty habit of making policy based on bribery.... shouting down anti-vaxxers may in fact serve to convince them that much more that it's a conspiracy. Unfortunately, I can't totally blame them.
But that's the problem: motive doesn't matter. Many people who don't know a lot about science seem to think it's black magic and that no one can know if scientists are lying. But of course, the beauty of science is that you can check the data, you just need to educate yourself. And that's the whole issue: people are scientifically illiterate and the religious right and the Republicans in general want to make sure that it stays that way by feeding them bullshit propaganda and destroying public education.
When the organization pushing an idea is a hugely funded government, they can do things like selectively release only the studies that favor their position, even if they had to do the same study multiple times before they finally got one with the results they were seeking.
I'm sure if back when the food pyramid was released (and even today) if you asked for proof that a carb heavy diet is ideal, you could find numerous studies backing up that claim, even though in hindsight we can confidently say they were wrong. Motive absolutely is a relevant factor due to impact on which statistics are presented and how they're presented, even assuming nobody is outright lying.
Yes, but again: it's not black magic. You can check. Other scientists also check the data. And that's also what happened with the food pyramid: lots of experts criticized it and said that it wasn't accurate. A scientifically literate person can look at the actual studies, compare them, reach a conclusion, that's why it's so important to teach kids stuff like that.
What you're doing is very popular among anti-science people (I'm not saying you're one of them): you pick an example where scientists got something wrong (even though it's more accurate to say that there wasn't a clear consensus) and use it to call into question the trustworthiness of science in general which is a seriously misguided approach. Yes, scientists make mistakes, yes, companies may want to fund studies that are to their advantage, but science as a method is self-correcting, mistakes are identified and thrown out. Companies like Exxon have spent millions of dollars funding studies to work against the growing consensus that global warming is man-made: many of these studies were easily debunked by other scientists. Did the motives of the Exxon-scientists matter? Not really. Sure, it makes you wary from the get-go, but in the end, only the facts matter: are their numbers correct? Can you reproduce the results of their experiments? Are there methodological issues? Motive only matters for people outside the scientific community, bloggers, so-called skeptics, conspiracy theorists, people who don't know enough to confront the actual science but feel that they're nonetheless entitled to have an opinion that's at least as valuable as the opinion of an expert. That's the current state of affairs: millions of ignorant people talking about shit they don't understand while complaining about elitist experts and liberal conspiracies.
You seem to be glazing over how long it takes to get some things updated though (for example, the food pyramid). And that yes, the motives of the cereal and grain industry (and the politicians going along with it because of donations and god knows what else) where exactly what made it take so long to finally get it...well, not exactly fixed...but better at least.
No, I don't "throw out science in general". But I try to be understandable of people who don't believe everything the government tells them, especially if there's any decent possibility of motive being suspect. Also, the average citizen often does NOT have the time, knowledge, or resources needed to replicate a lot of the work that they'd have to in order to confirm or falsify something as vast and complex as global warming for example. To act otherwise is dishonest at best.
Chiakii · 6 points · Posted at 16:31:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Psychology has shown we make judgement calls and then back them up with evidence that supports us.
Side note, I've known a few of people who ignored the "back them up with evidence that supports us" portion of the judgement call.
afew
AAA1374 · 4 points · Posted at 17:27:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
See, I set my beliefs on things based on a logical code of ethics irrespective of others. After I took philosophy in high school I realized where the inherent bias in my views was so I reevaluated my ideologies and came to my personal conclusions. I thought this was a perfectly normal and rational idea, then I started speaking to people and realized that it doesn't matter how I evaluate my opinion, since it's not theirs I'm apparently wrong.
you NOT because you sat down with an open minded and no bias and looked at all the evidence to arrive at a conclusion.
There is good reason for this, humans succeed best as a social organism, like an ant colony, it would do no good if everyone was questioning every task with limited knowledge/experience background, thus all coming to different conclusions. Societies work best when there is a consistent worldview. Religions are successful because they understand this, religions build successful societies.
Fuinir · 3 points · Posted at 17:30:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
NOT because you sat down with an open minded and no bias and looked at all the evidence to arrive at a conclusion.
And even if you were to try to do that, there's so much biased research and misinformation out there now that it's hard to discern the real evidence from it all. For science, lots of media outlets love to grab a research article showing some level of correlation, and construe it to be causation to the readers.
Also People typically think that their perspective is the only way to look at an issue, and the chances that any two parties arguing over an issue have the same perspective are virtually zero, that's why arguments get nowhere, it should be a sharing of information and perspective to broaden each parties viewpoint, that's what wisdom is, intellect and wisdom aren't the same thing at all.
True but then you have issues such as anti-vax which are much different than issues like independence for Catalonia or Scotland. I will listen to your views of Quebec independence but I don't really have time for your views on why Jews are evil lol ;)
What really divides us are the values we have. Our values are determined by the people around us, and we judge certain issues based on how they hold to those values. If you live in an area where the people around you value individual autonomy over societal welfare and you are going to be more supportive of small government in general. The values come first, then the issues come along for you to judge against your values. This is also why some arguments are not worth having. If someone doesn't share your values, or a particular belief you have doesn't fit with another person's values, then there is no point in continuing the argument, at least on that level.
Also, although you are right (or at least I have heard other anecdotal evidence that supports your claim) that studies in psychology have shown that we make judgement calls and back them up with evidence to support ourselves later, that doesn't mean we can't attempt to be objective. First of all, knowing that we do that instinctively allows us to realize it and try to counteract that by keeping an open mind. Second of all, that judgement call is based on our values. If someone is newly exposed to the debate on the efficacy on price controls, they aren't going to just blindly pick a side. They will pick the side that, at face value, seems to align most with their values. The point is, our values are the real reason for our differing beliefs, not just where we live and the wider culture. Our culture and background certainly affect the values we have, but it is important to keep in mind its not a direct step.
No, because then they will just write policies that benefit themselves because they have no voters they need to please. I know that the current system is messed up, but the idea of voting is one of the things we got right (even if there are better ways of voting like single transferable vote).
You aren't smarter than someone who holds an incorrect view just BECAUSE you hold a correct one
No, but I do think I'm smarter than people who are certain that they're right but lack the evidence to support that much confidence. I'll at least hold less confidence in ideas that I have a lower understanding of (or less evidence for), and I'll remain open to new information.
True, to be honest its so complicated because different issues have different degrees of importance based on who you are and your situation. Honestly most aren't worth fighting.
PPOKEZ · 2 points · Posted at 19:44:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You say "usually" which is good. Because even though this thought process may prevail, there are still millions of people who chose the logical conclusion in the face of coercion and even threats of physical violence.
So, you know, that's still a significant force in directing the human experience and should hold more weight in what's considered normal.
[deleted] · 5 points · Posted at 17:20:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I agree dude but the point is the people who don't agree generally are against it because the people around them are.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:16:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I know that feeling. I know too many people who love coal because it's been in their family for years.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 19:35:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
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[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:14:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How, none of my fuckwad family or friends know shit about power. Half of them didn't pass highschool. I know because I did the research.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 23:31:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
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[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 03:52:18 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
And there are many more strong arguments for it, but here you are sharing your laymen's opinion. Now as far as self righteous goes, you're the one who wants to keep replying to a conversation with a stranger hours after the last word was said.
I have not, thank you for recommending it. I'll add it to my "to-be-read list". BTW Plato and Platypus walk into a bar is another nice book to read on philosophy.
Unfortunately, non-biased information is hard to come by these days. Out of most of the people I know, I'm the least likely to take a hardline stance on something since I understand everything isn't so black and white. Problem is if I want to research something, I feel that mostly anything I come across is biased in favor of one or the other. May not be blatant, but statistics are an easy thing to manipulate.
Vaccinations... There is no need for "belief" regarding vaccinations. They work, if you do not get your kids vaccinated, you are risking their lives. Period.
Yeah but the left has turned it into a 'political' issue and not a safety issue.
I agree, out of all the issues I listed above vaccinations are the top issue in terms of actually educating yourself about and taking positive action. If you disagree with me about gun laws or Israel or climate change it will have very little impact (assuming you are an average citizen) but vaccinations are something that can have a massive impact on your family.
The point I'm trying to make is smart people can be anti vax and dumb people can be pro vax. However it is an issue that can be figured out relatively easily and one that I sort of understand at the basic level because of high school science.
The left has turned it into a political issue? That's complete bullshit. It's right-wingers that have turned science into a partisan issue: creationism, climate 'skeptics', anti-vaxxers, etc. Vaccines are not a political issue for the left, the left supports vaccines because they work. And really, you can't be that smart if you choose to ignore scientists and decide to put the lives of your children at risk because you're triggered by liberals. Maybe conservatives, who always like to go on about how leftists are special snowflakes, should just grow a thicker skin and stop putting other people in danger because their feelings were hurt. It really seems like their whole ideology is based on projection.
Well, you're right that it's not a pure Republican issue, I was wrong there. But it isn't predominantly a Democrat problem either. I quote from the Pew Research Center:
The new Pew Research Center survey finds Republicans (including independents who lean Republican) hold roughly the same views as Democrats (including leaning Democrats) about the benefits and risks of the MMR vaccine, consistent with a 2015 Pew Research Center survey on this topic. Republicans and Democrats (including those who lean to either party) are about equally likely to support a school-based vaccine requirement. However, political conservatives are slightly more likely than either moderates or liberals to say that parents should be able to decide not to have their children vaccinated, though majorities of all ideology groups support requiring the measles, mumps and rubella vaccine for all children in public schools because of the potential health risk to others.
Basically, it seems to be evenly spread between the two sides with the Republicans being slightly less supportive of mandatory vaccinations.
In most other fields however, it's clear that Republicans are far more anti-science than the Democrats. And my point that vaccination has not been politicized by the left still stands.
I think Armoured Skeptic said it best. You're not wrong to doubt science you don't understand, but you jump the shark when you replace science you don't understand with bullshit.
So what you're saying is if I constantly disagree with people from the environment I was raised and live in, I must be doing it right? Checkmate, sucka's
If we really want to dig in, an individuals labeled belief is actually a compromise to their personal beliefs. The labeled system holds the majority of their values but not all, and is simply easier to label oneself as part of that system than to explain everything you believe to anyone who asks.
That is how I pick recipes for new things. I decide how I think it should be done then find a recipe to match.
shanulu · 1 points · Posted at 18:13:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Laws too, we use our own biases to determine what a written law means, especially now that they have gotten rather ambigious. We Americans can't even agree what the second amendment says.
Then what makes the point of relativism credible and usable as an argument if your words are just a result of your environment? I logically cannot trust your statement as truthful if I am to actually believe your statement.
You can take your time to investigate an issue with an open mind.
The problem is that there are too many issues to do this, issues are very complex to the extent it would be impossible to understand every issue and that there are very intelligent people on both sides of every issue giving competing evidence and it is hard for your brain to view an issue objectively once you already have a bias.
Take climate change, people who read multiple pieces of evidence both for and against climate change generally come out more convinced of their viewpoint than before regardless of if they believed in it or not. In addition people who are educated who live in climate change denial areas are MORE LIKELY than uneducated people to believe in climate change.
I agree that finding the truth is difficult because of inherent bias in the uneducated and confirmation bias in the educated, but I was just saying that there must be concrete truth and that that truth is discoverable. I may have misunderstood your initial comment and thought you were arguing relativism, I apologize if so.
No, just that its too hard to do for EVERY subject and since going against the grain is annoying its easier to just flow with the river so to speak. Don't try to talk with Chinese people about China's 5,000 years of history for example ETC ETC ETC.
Agreed. As people often live beyond their means, so they also speak beyond their means, and make no effort to dig deep for truth. People will do the opposite even and adopt a foreign culture/worldview/religion etc. as their own without giving equal consideration for what beliefs they were born into, invalidating them on the basis of their familiarity with particular involved domestic sins, without looking for foreign sin. And thus they gain the appearance of cultured intellectuals and are more accepted for their adopted ignorance than holding onto what is perceived as ignorance, when that may in fact be what is right and true.
Ignoring the nuclear bombs and focusing on nuclear power. How many Japanese have died because of air pollution linked to fossil fuels? EVERY power has some downside.
Harknis · 1 points · Posted at 18:56:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What in the case where your opinions on matters are vastly different from those of the wider culture around you, because you sat down and researched with an open mind?
Well, if you can prove you are correct, then I would say you are smarter than the opposition.
Keep in mind intelligence and being smart are not the same thing. The dumb ones are those who believe what they believe without having proof - whether or not their belief on the topic is right or wrong.
But everyone believes many things without proof. The problem is peoples natural reaction to defend their beliefs. Added to this we all have some belief that we don't want to debate.
For example I wouldn't want to debate with someone who believes gay people should be killed, although I might if they werent trying to convince me of their view but if they were trying to explain their view (mostly because I would try and explain my own). But I wouldnt be having an open and honest conversation, its unlikely anything they would say would change my view, its that deeply held.
The problem I have with that point of view is that it's limiting.
I've discovered I've been wrong about a lot of things. A lot of things I believed but didn't know why. Some of those things were right, and some were wrong.
Some of the things I was wrong about I held onto very steadfastly, but without proof (and proof can both be physical and logical).
A rational person must admit that there is the possibility that they have the wrong viewpoint on any given topic. As such I'll gladly entertain a rational discussion from any opposing viewpoint - it will either prove my viewpoint wrong (which is a good thing - I've just gained new knowledge) or it will strengthen my current viewpoint (which is also a good thing as now I know it is much more likely that I am right.)
If someone wants to convince me that gays should be killed, then by all means, let them try to convince me.
They'll have to somehow show that the non aggression principle is irrational though, which would be impressive. But if they could do that, then I would need to reanalyze my viewpoint.
There's a lot of things that I 'believe' without having proof. But this is mainly due to me not having had the time to actually analyze and research them yet. Until then I avoid expressing my opinion on the matter, because even if I have the correct opinion, it very well could be based in irrationality.
I once had a critical thinking class where we were allowed to openly contest and debate any point made by the teacher to promote "free thought". So I immediately the teacher's notion that free thought exists by pointing out that everyone in the room was wearing clothing and nobody could give a reason why other than that's how they were raised.
Aiognim · 1 points · Posted at 23:48:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Wait, I agree with this... what does that really mean???
Please, someone tell me so I know what to think!
Phyltre · 1 points · Posted at 00:25:32 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Your belief on ... are usually because of where you live and the wider culture around you
Not everyone believes what they were raised to believe, or what the majority of their state believes, or what someone told them to believe. Some people really do go out of their comfort zone to evaluate things.
The thing about even some proven psychological effects is the numbers involved--a 20% (or whatever) increase in likelihood is a real result for a published study, but at the end of the day, the behavior or correlation is still just more likely among the studied group. Making statistically convenient assumptions (like "lol you didn't open-mindedly inform your own worldview") is almost as lazy as trusting the people around you to be right.
The upside to this is that if you can get enough people onboard with individuals who HAVE sat down and thought about things with as little bias as possible, then decide to agree with THEM, we're all better off. We can ALL be as smart as the smartest people we know if we listen to them.
Note: this is not a STEMlord etc thing. That's the same as religion but for socially clueless people. I mean respecting experts in all fields, including psych and humanities and public policy - whatever your original bias might be in regard to those fields - is a good stance to have.
True the problem is Anti-GMO people will respect well educated and well spoken anti GMO experts who have STEM degrees (and happen to be wrong but know way more about the issue than I and could destroy us in a debate)
TooM3R · 0 points · Posted at 17:28:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't exactly agree, 2 people can be from the same area and have totally different opinion about the same thing that's related to them. Eg. Israel - Palestinian confilct, many people in Israel have different opinions about it even when they come from the same place.
Now we are getting into what intelligence means but no. Sure a Canadian who holds the view that a public - private healthcare system is more efficient is correct and other Canadians are objectively wrong. Same with a French person who is pro GMO while other French are objectively wrong. BUT that doesn't mean the Canadian or the French in my example are 'demonstrate higher intelligence'. Other people could be (and are) smarter and just have incorrect views because of their society.
So there are no views that can be only supported by correct logical reasoning and remain unaffected by social norms?
[deleted] · 16 points · Posted at 16:46:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The three main words I see real professionals use...
Probably, should, and possibly
The more you know about something, the more you realize you know nothing about it.
Gbiknel · 2 points · Posted at 18:00:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's just because the lawyers pounded those words into them ;)
Jk
But really though
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 18:02:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
One thing I learned in the real business world.... Nobody wants to take liability for shit, especially professionals. There's what they would expect based on their education vs what is possible in the realm of the real world. Nothing is ever simple.
I think it's more about understanding nuances makes you dislike making absolutes statements when generalizing. Like "there should be traffic because it's rush hour". Not "there will be traffic because it's rush hour."
Are you talking about his argument that people act morally even if it hurts them?
You just have to see an insane person to realize his argument has no merit. He is simply cherry picking behavior he likes and claiming there must be a god which causes that while ignoring all of the other irrational behavior humans do.
He's basically claiming that rolling a 6 sometimes on a die is proof of a god because he likes 6s and ignore the other rolls.
[deleted] · 35 points · Posted at 16:40:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
His name is "genius_throwaway", he claims to have mastered not one but all three hard sciences and maths, which no one proficient in those subjects would ever do, and has a PhD in a fifth subject from a school whose initials turns up nothing on Google. Definitely a troll or just a liar.
[deleted] · 199 points · Posted at 15:21:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The problem is that people won't acknowledge the source of their pet issue; a deep seated need to feel better than others, smarter, more righteous. That's the main thing behind virtually all online "activism". They never tackle the serious shit like say, a justice system wherein an innocent person can go to jail for decades or life for a crime they never committed. If everyone actually focused their attention on something like that, it would be incredible. But no, it's scary. Better take some pet issue and turn it into this big injustice because that way you can simultaneously feel righteous, smarter than the sheeple, and that sweet sweet indignation.
Inb4 "don't shit on someone else's cause just because there are bigger causes"
I don't buy that shit because I've spent enough time becoming familiar with the bullshit reddit loves to bitch about and they aren't interested in actually looking at things objectively. It's about their own personal feelings and inadequacies.
I think you hit at the root of it. Look at how many extreme political partisans talk about how people supporting the other candidate must be brainwashed / must be stupid / obviously can't think for themselves.
Meanwhile, these people that can think for themselves (who should be thinking for you) spend a lot of time posting in subreddits that only feed their preexisting conclusions about the world.
The740 · 14 points · Posted at 17:38:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The reactions to this past Saturday are a great example. "If you voted for Trump, you are responsible for this."
By that logic, if you voted for or support Bernie Sanders, you're responsible for trying to murder elected officials. It was a Sanders supporter who opened fire on a group of people who were minding their own business and practicing for a softball game, but by extension all must bear collective responsibility no matter what.
Maybe there's something I'm missing but if you voted for Trump then you're guilty by association right? You enabled the riots to happen in a way. So why are all Muslims not guilty for ISIS? By not condemning your religion you're also responsible for them?
Or maybe people and issues in society are incredibly complex and we can't make statements about everyone. But nooo everyone on the Internet has to be hyperbolic or else you are a Nazi/libtard/sjw/white supremacist
Edit: I'm scared of the right and sick of the left and wish we'd all fucking work together
by extension all must bear collective responsibility no matter what.
No, not no matter what. People saying "If you voted for Trump, you are responsible for this" are basing that accusation on a) Trump's history of personal racism and his racist and nationalist policies and messaging (wall, muslim ban, etc.), b) the amount of support Trump has received from white supremacists without condemnation or a change of message, and c) the stark clarity of all this during the election season. People have been saying "Hey, Trump's core message seems really hateful and xenophobic, probably don't vote for him" and "Hey, Trump is getting enthusiastic support from white supremacists and refusing to distance himself from them or their message, probably don't vote for him" for a good long time now. Sanders wasn't dog whistling violent antifa groups, nor would he have hesitated for a second to condemn anyone committing acts of murderous terror in his name, and that's the difference in the situation. When people say "If you voted for Trump, you are responsible for this", they're not saying "any politician is responsible for the actions of their supporters", they're saying "Trump has been uniquely supportive of this radical element of his support base, and all of us saw that in him from a very long time ago. Why couldn't you?"
No, not no matter what. People saying "If you voted for Trump, you are responsible for this" are basing that accusation on a) Trump's history of personal racism and his racist and nationalist policies and messaging (wall, muslim ban, etc.)
I am Hispanic, and very obviously Hispanic. I would support a limited amnesty for undocumented immigrants, I would never in any circumstances call ICE on somebody, and I think the wall is pretty silly. But equally silly is saying the wall is racist.
It's to curtail undocumented immigration, which so happens to usually come from across the Mexican border. Certainly that policy would appeal to racists, but the policy itself is not racist.
His history of personal racism, to me, is insignificant for someone that has spent decades in the public eye as a businessperson. Is this just the housing discrimination case from over 40 years ago?
Muslim ban was a temporary ban on Muslim immigration from Muslim countries until they can figure out a system to vet them. In these countries, religious terrorism is an issue. I personally don't care if Muslims come here, but I understand the motivation.
Again, this is a policy that would appeal to racists. But that doesn't mean the policy itself is racist, since it's based on elements of truth. And that doesn't mean everyone who supports the policy is racist.
b) the amount of support Trump has received from white supremacists without condemnation or a change of message
How should he have "changed his message" without changing his policy proposals?
People have been saying "Hey, Trump's core message seems really hateful and xenophobic, probably don't vote for him" and "Hey, Trump is getting enthusiastic support from white supremacists and refusing to distance himself from them or their message, probably don't vote for him" for a good long time now.
And why should they have to agree that it's hateful? Why should they vote against their interests because of who white supremacists happen to support? These supremacists are certainly a tiny minority of the population.
Sanders wasn't dog whistling violent antifa groups, nor would he have hesitated for a second to condemn anyone committing acts of murderous terror in his name, and that's the difference in the situation.
President Trump did condemn violence, and condemned violence from both sides. I've responded to a lot of people like you on here, and I don't think I've encountered even one who was willing to concede that the leftists also provoked violence that day.
Should President Trump have condemned any white supremacist groups that participated in that rally? I would have liked to see him do so, but it's not some unprecedented event that he did not. The facts point to Mr. Fields planning and executing this attack himself, with no assistance or approval from the leadership of these groups.
Sanders wasn't dog whistling violent antifa groups, nor would he have hesitated for a second to condemn anyone committing acts of murderous terror in his name, and that's the difference in the situation.
Should Bernie Sanders have condemned Black Lives Matter during the Dallas police shootings a year ago? They were committed by Micah Xavier Johnson, who was inspired by the Black Lives Matter movement. Black Lives Matter as a organization did not help him plan or carry out his attack.
Shouldn't Sanders — whom I deeply regret ever donating money to — have been shamed into saying something about Black Lives Matter? Has he ever said anything about this Antifa group specifically?
When people say "If you voted for Trump, you are responsible for this", they're not saying "any politician is responsible for the actions of their supporters", they're saying "Trump has been uniquely supportive of this radical element of his support base, and all of us saw that in him
Do you not believe there is a similarly radical, violent element on the Democratic side?
[deleted] · -4 points · Posted at 19:55:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No he didn't. He presented a different view than those of the comments above him.
He made a good point about the Sanders shooter comparison not being the same. I personally agree that saying 'if you voted for Trump you caused this' is an unfair statement but if anything your comment is validating the point of the parent comments when dismissing another opinion by just pointing out that the other comments in this thread disagree with it (in a pretty condescending way).
Yes, and I don't completely agree with the comment I was defending either. Trump displayed some very concerning behavior during election season, and I'm not particularly happy with anyone who ignored that behavior to vote for him anyway, but to say that thay constitutes a direct share of the blame for anything that happens as a result of his election is a real stretch. Even if there were warning signs, the future is not that easy to predict. Nevertheless, I can't stand to see the equivocation, normalization, and what-aboutism that pervades a lot of anti-anti-Trump rhetoric lately. His position as a politician is not equivalent to any other politician in modern times, and parallels drawn between him and others are almost always invalid. And, even if Trump voters aren't connected by a direct line of blame to this event, I think it's absolutely appropriate for them to feel some amount indirect connection to the sequence of events and set of motivations that caused it to occur, and have a sense of guilt and regret in response.
The biggest problem I've had is that when I try to discuss the nuts and bolts of an issue, people on either side of an issue take that itself as being argumentative.
Oh yeah? Aren't screws good enough for you? Bloody bolt supremacist.
OHTHNAP · 6 points · Posted at 17:31:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"Everyone wants to change the world but nobody wants to change himself."
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 17:28:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I agree with you. I have an issue though that I've been dealing with myself.
I agree but at the same time I wonder, up to what point do you give someone the benefit of the doubt? I like reading/listening about opinionated topics even if I don't necessarily agree - it's providing perspective. When I have discussions online, I like to assume that the people I'm talking to aren't the type of ppl you mentioned, even if they are.
Similarly, I've made comments and posts, which I imagine reflects me to be the type of person you ve mentioned, but I don't think I am. I like talking about issues online bc it broadens my understanding of the world and makes me ask questions I normally wouldnt.
I'm not active really in the sense that I volunteer or support charitable organizations but I do like to talk about issues that are significant to me.
So, is this desire, to talk to ppl online about various issues, one from a place of my 'pet issue' in your eyes?
(To clarify, not an attack. Just curious about how you would interpret my type of behavior..I realize in a way I'M making it personal but I'm not taking it personally - being defensive, if that makes sense)
I agree but at the same time I wonder, up to what point do you give someone the benefit of the doubt? I like reading/listening about opinionated topics even if I don't necessarily agree - it's providing perspective. When I have discussions online, I like to assume that the people I'm talking to aren't the type of ppl you mentioned, even if they are.
Why does it matter? Judge the arguments, not the person behind the arguments.
Lmao. Nah, I just enjoy shitposting on /r/Debate. Although, you can read into it however you like.
Edit: mobile sucks
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 17:39:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
lol I'm kidding. I just had to comment about your username because it was so fitting
Deto · 4 points · Posted at 17:06:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What does it matter though, why someone works towards a cause? If the cause is a good one and they are working to improve the situation, then who cares if there are underlying selfish motivations. It would probably be difficult to find a completely unselfish act at all - even when there are physical rewards usually there are psychological rewards for the person.
[deleted] · 7 points · Posted at 17:45:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It really does though. Self reflection is absolutely necessary, because without it, no one would realize that the thing they're fighting so hard against isn't enough. As soon as they feel they've "solved" that issue they need something else to fight against. Fighting over things that are subjective does nothing but cause a mountain of tensions and conflict between people while large scale, rather objective injustices like famine or resources continue to get worse. People arguing about little things like parenting choices really aren't seeing the big picture; the big problems getting worse while we're being distracted.
It's why i gave myself a different mindset. People like to always feel right and that can cause problems. There is a difference between knowing and feeling.
Sometimes our emotions towards things can create a bias which has the potential to be pointless. eg: I hated bananas because my sister hated bananas. Until i ate them more. BANANA'S are great! Also a good source of potassium.
People should learn to be open minded and view things without emotion/opinion judging it
I don't want to be rude, or debate this with you, but I think it's important to recognize that the second half of your comment contradicts everything you said about what people's political views are based in. There are objective facts, but for many people there aren't objective morals/ethical facts. Ethics is a philosophically complex issue thats hard to agree on. Objective/rule based/duty ethics exist and I'm not trying to convince you they're wrong, but there are also actually a lot of differing opinions even within their supporters.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:28:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think it has a lot to do with the fact that serious change is really hard, in addition to self-aggrandizement (and short attention spans). Changing the justice system would take years of work and basically becoming a professional activist working on getting politicians voted in who will make the changes you want. That's out of most people's ability.
I feel a person has a right to their causes. Ultimately,, that can lead to things like, "So you are confused about your identity, you'r e not happy in your relationships. Millions of people are starving and have no decent clothes but you want to spend money on a therapist."
Perfect. Someone recently sarcastically linked to the Donald and I clicked it. The words weren't the same but the rhetoric was the same as the rest of this site. Paraphrased but it boils down to "look at these idiots who believe X despite all this 'logic and reason'."
People really just want to feel superior, and look for things that support their predetermined point of view.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:36:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm socialist. That's only important because I tend to look at the foundations and see shit that needs to change. But people are mostly comfortable with society as is and would rather bitch about problems that arise from systemic issues than address the issues at their core.
There are thousands of people across the country fighting the injustice system, including using online activism. It's one of the most common areas of activist focus. Where do you get this idea that they only focus on unimportant issues?
Yup and the assumptions fly too. "Are you a democrat or republican?". What kinda stupid question is that? You need to ask me an issue first. It's not like I agree with either of them 100%. I hope none of you do either. Who in your life have you ever agreed with 100%, let alone two completely corrupt parties. It's all a sports team nowadays anyways. They just want their side to win and will ignore anything that is evidence against them. Feminism, misogyny, BLM, nazis, you name it. They all have done varying degrees of fucked up shit, but if you asked them they would claim to be pure as can be.
It's obnoxious that we still categorize ourselves by left/right leaning honestly. It seems both extremes lay claim to the rest of their "groups" and those with somewhat scattered beliefs/are in the centre and viciously torn apart.
Before I got banned from r/lgbt I dealt with a guy who said "you agree 100% with the party you vote for". I honestly can't imagine completely devoting yourself to a side, I guess it's less frustrating than "everyone can do bad things"
The Sophisticate: “The world isn’t black and white. No one does pure good or pure bad. It’s all gray. Therefore, no one is better than anyone else.”
The Zetet: “Knowing only gray, you conclude that all grays are the same shade. You mock the simplicity of the two-color view, yet you replace it with a one-color view."
More importantly, the system functions on being able to process via categorization.
A computer registers only ones and zeros. It really doesn't matter that between 1 and 0 there are infinite possible voltages of that bit of information - the computer will always make a determination of whether it's closer to 1 or 0 and go with it.
The arbitrary encapsulation of complexity is what makes the higher system possible.
I always thought eugenics was one of the hardest topics to sort out in a moral way. When talking about genetics, we know that if your lineage has red hair, it's a possibility you will have red hair. How difficult is it to imagine that violence, intelligence, and handicaps are genetic as well. Would it not behoove the human race to remove the weaker links to create a better race? Of course, it's immoral. It's Nazism.
It was also started in America. So we have that black mark on us. I often wonder though, had the Nazis not went apeshit on Europe, would eugenics have continued up until today? What would the world look like?
This is a huge problem with the current 2-party political system. Each 'side' feels like they have to pick the extreme opposite stance on every issue, making each party turn into a caricature of themselves. Also makes each individual issue harder to solve because most people feel differently about certain issues than 'their' party does. Some issues I lean toward the conservative side, some I lean towards the liberal side. And usually my feelings are more centerist rather than extreme. You can't even get 3 people to agree on pizza toppings, how the heck are they supposed to divide up major issues into 2 parties and expect anything to get done?!
drhorn · 2 points · Posted at 19:59:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Beyond making things black and white, the fact that people think that oversimplifying an issue clears a path to resolving it.
"Well, Mexicans are just coming to America because it's too easy to cross the border, so let's just make the border harder to cross and boom! problem solved"
No, you dumbshit, that solves nothing because illegal immigration is a much, much more complex issue than crossing the border.
Yup... people get so caught up in their "beliefs" and hate everyone that's different. The truth is, every debate is a debate because both sides have good arguments. There are valid points on both sides. Once one side or the other becomes part of their identity though, they can't see anything about the other side as good.
The truth is, every debate is a debate because both sides have good arguments. There are valid points on both sides.
Creationism, the climate "debate", the birther movement, this weekend's white supremacist rally....
These are issues just off the top of my head in less than 30 seconds of effort where one side literally has no valid arguments.
EDIT: If you disagree, rather than downvoting me how about you actually share some of these totally valid arguments in favor of white supremacy, creationism, climate change denial, or Obama's non-citizenship?
I'll bite, just for the fuck of it though, not because I actually care. Real quick before I wade in, I just want to point out that you listed off a few very broad topics so it's pretty hard to know what I'm actually arguing against, but here goes.
Creationism: I think this was a pretty poor choice to use this as an example because well, neither side can be proven, so every one that takes a hard stance is really just "having faith" if you will.
the climate "debate": honestly, the goal posts for this one are constantly moving, is it global warming, or climate change? Are we saying it's man made or "natural"? I can pretty much find data to back up an argument for or against any combination of answers here.
the birther movement: I had to google this to remember this was even a thing but here goes.. Should a president of the united states not have to prove he was born in the US? It is a requirement after all. Countering with no one else was asked for their birth certificate is like saying "but he started it" or "I was just going with the flow of traffic, officer"
this weekend's white supremacist rally: again, are we arguing about whether whites are actually supreme or if people should be able to rally? I'll guess the former. I guess it depends on what we're measuring. I'd say whites are pretty supreme at being white but they're kind of bottom of the barrel at.. ya know.. not.
trylist · 3 points · Posted at 19:04:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Creationism implies young earth creationism, which is proven wrong by things like the microwave background and carbon dating. If you're unfamiliar with the argument, the defining moment was when religious fundies wanted public schools to "teach the controversy", both the big bang and a 6000 year old earth, as if both have equal merit.
Ah, see, I thought we were discussing creationism as a whole, as in "intelligent design" vs "big bang" or whatever, so yeah, there's pretty much no argument to support the earth only being 7000 years old or whatever they think these days.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 16:58:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If they're not really debate topics, why the hell are we still having to have these debates about these topics?
And again, these are things I came up with just immediately off the top of my head.
The person to whom I was originally replying said that the problem with all debates is that people can't see the merits of the arguments of the other side. If we say that this short list of items are things that are not up for debate, can't we be accused of committing that very sin?
That doesnt mean you should be accepting or even tolerating all of them.
If someones ideology was that burning you for entertainment is legitimate you would be a fool to just accept that.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:09:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
An ignorant appeal to controversy is just as bad. Evolution, global warming, vaccinations, GMO- these issues pit science against willful ignorance, and shouldn't be treated as if they had 'shades of grey'.
Keep also in mind that there is a difference between believing based on evidence, data and statistics and believing based on what a person (who you assume has drawn his conclusion based evidence, data and statistics) says.
I absolutely agree and try to relay this as much as possible. Reasons why things happen (motivations, natural phenomenon, a collapse of an ancient society, etc.) or, for example, why a society today has developed to its current position are often a complex mix of factors. Rarely can things be explained away by one specific reason.
This is especially true in the field of law. In most cases there are no "winner" and "losers". Often both sides will win some of the issues contested in a case and lose some of the issues contested in the case.
Bad events do not negate good events. They both happened. The bad should not be repeated and learned from, the good should be celebrated, and both can be done concurrently without any kind of denial or issues.
The world is very gray and very light on absolutes.
Evil exists, and sometimes it's necessary or the least evil that can be accepted as the best and only outcome for everyone in total.
Doesn't excuse cynical "There's nothing I can do." though. If you can do something in your power to make the world a better place, even if it's unrelated to your current concern, do.
I forget who said it in the Bible, but: "God/Jesus/Whoever helps those who help themselves." Pull your fuckin' weight.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:24:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But...when you hear a bad idea, your natural reaction is not to start rattling off potential alternative ideas. Your natural reaction is to oppose the bad idea. Pretty soon, people polarize into two groups that either support the idea or oppose it. I think it's unfair to categorize someone as ignorant for simply opposing an idea that they believe to be a bad one. (Or supporting it.)
It's worth mentioning, though, that politics in the US is locked into a tow-party system. So even if an issue is not itself black and white, you generally only have the option to vote for one of two policy stances on the topic, which ends up feeling/sounding roughly the same.
Got told I was defending North Korea last night because I was explaining the reasoning behind Kim's actions and why it makes sense, given the position he finds himself in, that he would make some of the decisions he's made. It doesn't mean he's not a monstrous person heading a monstrous regime. But there more nuance than good and evil.
This is not a black and white world
To be alive, I say the colors must swirl
And I believe that maybe today
We will all get to appreciate
The beauty of gray
- Live
One point that occurs to me is that these items you've listed are all subjective to a great extent. All subjective ideologies consist of a consensus of the people who participate in these ideologies. Take, for example, the divisive topic of marijuana legalization. 15 years ago, in the U.S., the concept was laughable. Now, it's a reality in many states. What changed? The conversation changed, the flow of information changed, the knowledge changed, the participants changed and so, the ideology behind marijuana usage changed.
And so it will ever be. Politics, ethics, religion, conflicts, all EXIST because of varying degrees of participation and information. It's the proximity of conflicting ideas that create rifts between groups of people. Within a specific ideological group, a certain topic may be perfectly black and white.
jdrc07 · 1 points · Posted at 17:43:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I realized this when Sandy Hook happened. I think the nature of the crime, compounded by the fact that I had a little sister right around that age really fucked with me.
I spent dozens of hours pondering what could be done legislatively to prevent such an event and found no solution that wouldn't be extremely expensive and piss off gun owners too much to pass the house/senate.
Just because mathematical thinking is a subspace of philosopical thinking in the most rigorous sense, does not mean it's the other way around aswell.
Also you should see it in a practical way from a high school perspective, because that is what most people know about most topics. Philosophy in high school is void of math, thus in a colloquial sense, philosophy is void of math.
Also you should see it in a practical way from a high school perspective, because that is what most people know about most topics. Philosophy in high school is void of math, thus in a colloquial sense, philosophy is void of math.
Why should I think about it from a high school perspective? At best I only know what my specialization taught in high school during those years in one country. Heck, philosophy in that context was a voluntary course, you didn't have to take it to graduate.
Exactly, but that is what most people know about most topics.
This means when you define words for general use for the public, you can take that perspective as standard, because after that if you do any science at all your are most likely specializing on 1 subject + the necessary math.
The perspective only refers to the usage of words, as most people would understand it.
Ofcourse in the general sense you are right. Math is a subspace of Philosophy.
But Reasoning is philosophy, and the level of reasoning that most people have is void of math.
You could call it reasonbased thinking vs mathematical thinking.
But let's be honest, that just sounds weird. And in the end, to get a solution you have to use math, otherwise your conclusion will just be useless and abstract.
It's really difficult to rally people to your cause by saying "well actually it's pretty complicated" as opposed to "it's super simple and anyone who disagrees is obviously a moron".
5nurp5 · 1 points · Posted at 17:47:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
you can deal with most thing with 5 (five) shades of gray between black and white, tops.
Exactly. And people down south don't understand that I can be a Christian and not be a republican. I don't like abortions but making it illegal wouldn't get rid of them. It would only make it far more dangerous.
This is more or less what I was going to say. If solving certain problems were as simple as people made it sound, those problems would have been solved long ago. The world is incredibly complicated.
This means, to me, understanding the situation to such a degree that you can have very "black or white" axioms and a perfect set of logic that follows. Until we've reached this point, we don't really have a true "understanding". Just intuition / feelings.
Most of the things we try to argue about using logic are realms where logic doesn't really belong yet. Things like politics, that's the realm of rhetoric. The system is so big and complex that we don't have a true understanding of it yet.
The goal should be to take smaller pieces of the problem and analyze/study/experiment with them until we do have that kind of understanding, then assemble all those smaller pieces into a unified understanding.
We're moving there slowly, but we haven't come to understand the system that is society very well, partially because we're still struggling to understand the individual human system. First we need to finish mapping the brain's functions, then we'll be able to use that model to construct better societal models.
It's hard to sit with that uncertainty, sometimes. I feel lost and under educated on most topical subjects and below capacity in ability to process, remember and discuss such things and that I often have nothing to contribute.
People give others a hard rap for not thinking critically and being too swayed by superficial arguments or holding untenable stances with too much conviction, but critical thinking is hard and effortful. It can be very difficult to hold an entirely unbiased perspective (maybe even impossible) and on some subjects it's hard to find good, quality sources that you can trust - and even those sources may have their own errors which you may or may not be aware of or looking out for.
There are some things in comparison with another that essentially are black and white, though. And, black and white perspectives often help us in argumentation to see the valid points from both sides and to quantify exactly what the 'grey' is and means.
While this is true, people allow the complexity of some things to justify giving up on trying to understand them.
Just because something has multiple interpretations, multiple sides, many angles, and can mean different things, doesn’t mean it’s pointless to try and understand it. I have witnessed far too many people decide “Well I guess it doesn’t matter then” because there is no way their theory can be right because “WHAT ABOUT THIS???”
You can poke holes in anything, and can use as much technicality or as little, to justify inaction. It happens all the time at my workplace.
sporket · 1 points · Posted at 18:42:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But try telling someone the world is not black and white, but shades of grey and you'll just be met with an incredulous look at best.
Donnie: Ling Ling finds a wallet on the ground filled with money. She takes the wallet to the address on the driver's license but keeps the money inside the wallet. <Scoffs> I-'m sorry Mrs. Farmer. I don't get this.
Kitty Farmer: Just place an X on the Life Line in the appropriate place.
Donnie: No, I mean I know what to do, I just don't get this. You can't just lump things into two categories. Things aren't that simple.
Kitty: The Life Line is divided that way.
Donnie: Life isn't that simple. I mean who cares if Ling Ling returns the wallet and keeps the money? It has nothing to do with either fear or love.
Kitty: Fear and love are the deepest of human emotions.
Donnie: Okay. But you're not listening to me. There are other things that need to be taken into account. Like the whole spectrum of human emotion. You can't just lump everything into these two categories and then just deny everything else.
Kitty: If you don't complete the assignment you'll get a zero for the day.
bship · 617 points · Posted at 17:37:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Dentist here.
Brush your teeth twice daily, floss a few times a week and don't go to sleep with a filthy ass mouth.
This would save me like 90% of my job.
[deleted] · 85 points · Posted at 19:42:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That would be where I would be fired as a dental hygienist. I wouldn't be able to stop myself from saying, "Wow, looks like you busted a nut or two in your mouth."
My dentist had single wrap toothbrushes with tooth paste embedded in the bristles in all their bathrooms for patients to use. It was great for a last minute clean before going in- like cleaning your house before the cleaners come!
Why do dentists tell people this. If everyone brushed regularly, rinsed with Listerine, flossed every day. Wouldn't you be unemployed? I had a coworker whose father was a dentist. He sealed his teeth with this plastic coating. He never got a cavity. If everyone did this, dentists would be broke.
My mom has a coworker that is the exact opposite of what you said. She inspects patients and suggests unnecessary and sometimes painful operations for commision. Shes a good dentist though so no way the boss would 'notice'.
I think what /u/ionwesker is asking "Would you rather need to clean a dirty mouth or a clean mouth in the first place?"
Given that there are already disastrous mouths in the first place, perhaps you would rather fix those. But you would certainly rather that if a problem had to arise in the first place, it be a small problem.
Doctors, contrary to popular belief, are almost always looking out for the best for their patients. Anyone who goes to medical school for the money drops out by the first year.
The patients come after themselves.Who would endure the rigors of medical school followed by the professional slavery of residency if you would make a modest salary. No doctor in the United States of America isn't making fantastic money $160,000 +. None.
He had a clear coating on the top of his teeth. I think it is called sealing the teeth. You can't get cavities with this treatment. None of my dentists ever mentioned it. I wonder why?
You can still get cavities around and below the gum line, so it's not a perfect process. The part of your tooth that would get covered is the easiest part to clean anyway.
Because most insurance won't pay for it unless you're a kid. And it's not really needed unless you have teeth that are really prone to cavities or you aren't properly taking care of your teeth.
Be sure to get the sonicare model without the large, round base on the removable head. Gets gunked up. Get the skinny brush head type. Easier to keep clean.
Might cause his gumline to recede, perhaps? Not a dentist, though.
Erandir · 4 points · Posted at 20:07:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If he brushes properly, he'll be fine. The key is not to brush too hard. People think you have to brush hard to get rid of plaque. Try holding the brush with only two fingers to give you an idea of what the pressure should feel like. Also use the softest bristled toothbrush. Recession from brushing is called toothbrush abrasion.
I've also heard you shouldn't brush right after eating; your saliva softens you enamel or something?
Erandir · 3 points · Posted at 22:00:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Correct. It's the acidity in your mouth that can soften enamel though. And hard brushing can cause erosion over the course of years. Take a look at the Stephan curve regarding pH levels after eating. pH5.5 is where your enamel is vulnerable.
What's your opinion on the alcohol based mouthwashes? I've heard mixed reviews from dentists - some say it's good for killing the bacteria, others have told me it can dry out your mouth a bit and promote plaque growth.
Also, dentists are consistently impressed that I brush the back of my teeth, which is buck wild to me. I just assumed that I have to brush as much of the tooth as a toothbrush can reach.
Filthy-ass mouth, or filthy ass-mouth? #hyphensmatter
Irelgbt · 13 points · Posted at 17:48:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And your salary
If I was a dentist I'd be like hell yeah drink some coke and don't forget to wash it around your mouth for good taste, Actually let it sit and erode for a minute or so too
I just want to point out that I brushed my teeth once a week for almost 10 years and have still never got a cavity in my entire life. (And before you ask, I have been brushing my teeth consistently for a while now, thanks)
Heh, when I was a kid I fell at a pool and landed on them. Broke my two top front teeth in half. It kinda gave me a feeling of "my teeth are forever shit" even after I got caps in. I basically stopped brushing for a while, then I started brushing rarely, basically only when I went to a doctors or randomly once a week. Brushing daily has been difficult but it's become a habit now.
I thought they made research about how flossing was actually useless. Why do dentists keep telling people to do so? It's even weirder to me because in France, where I'm from, no dentist ever asks people to floss whatsoever.
vauran · 17 points · Posted at 19:37:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't even understand how flossing would be useless. Food gets stuck in your gums, you floss and get it out or you dont and the food/sugars fuck your teeth and gums up.
[deleted] · -1 points · Posted at 19:41:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
dearges · 3 points · Posted at 20:33:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Evidence is weak it stops cavities, it does limit gingivitis and help improve breath. Gingivitis can lead to heart disease, and everyone wants to be kissable.
Erandir · 10 points · Posted at 20:03:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No, there's no research that says flossing is useless. There's just a lack of well designed publications that show flossing's effectiveness. We recommend it because in our experience we can see the results in our patients when they start to floss regularly (it's a low level of evidence but it's still valid).
If there is a lack of evidence of its effectiveness, isn't just another way to word that there is no proof it's useful anyhow? If researches can't conclude it's useful, it's underlying it's useless.
Erandir · 4 points · Posted at 20:17:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The reason there is a lack of evidence is because it's difficult to design a study that doesn't have so many other confounding variables that effect the data. There are so many things that determine whether or not a carious lesion is going to form in a patient's tooth including diet, how soon after eating a patient brushes, saliva flow rate, saliva enzymes present, brushing technique, toothpaste used, flossing technique, water fluoride level, fluoride treatments when the tooth was developing as a child, and age of patient to name a few.
But isn't the diversity between individuals something usual in science? Don't scientists usual take a big group of person to compare result? As in, if you take two groups of maybe one thousand persons each, also making sure there is about the same diversity inside each, you could compare the outcome of flossing by asking to one group to floss and the other one not too. Also, twins studies. They would have the same DNA and childhood, one would floss and not the other one. I can't see why making studies like that would be un-achievable. I've seen this type of research about much more complexe things.
ksargi · 1 points · Posted at 20:22:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Still, the difficulty of designing a study does not replace lack of evidence in support of something.
Erandir · 3 points · Posted at 20:27:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There's plenty of evidence. It's just not of the highest level.
As much as it's true, there is also a rule in science that says that the easiest explanation to something is the explanation we should take. So maybe it's wrong but I really don't think it's stupid to say that if it hasn't been proved that it's useful, it might be useless.
dearges · 2 points · Posted at 20:31:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It doesn't affect cavities, but it does prevent gum disease, which oddly can have knock on heart effects.
Which is better, brushing twice a day but not once before bed, or brushing twice a day, once before bed?
Erandir · 6 points · Posted at 20:09:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Brushing before bed is most important. Saliva is a major protective substance and when you sleep, you provide significantly less saliva. That combined with the long period of time that plaque is sitting on the teeth and gums makes brushing before bed so important.
CeaRhan · 1 points · Posted at 20:42:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What should we do when we're bleeding every time we brush and our nerves become supersensitive but dentists say "there is nothing wrong with you" and we're stuck with those issues for years?
I handed thousands of dollars to dentists every few years. Then I stopped drinking 3 or 4 sodas a day, and cut way back on sugar overall. After about six months, my checkups showed no new cavities.
I was not fanatical about brushing, I did it pretty regularly, but it was the sugar and citric/phosphoric acids that were totally destroying my teeth.
don't eat shit. i stepped up my dental game since my last dentist visit 6 months ago. Brushed my teeth twice a day and flossed every night. Still had 2 small cavities that need filling and some plague buildup and the bottom teeth. But ill be damned if i give up that sugary goodness
ironically, pallet can be made from a variety of different woods, including hardwoods like oak and walnut. what matters isn't so much the grade of the wood, but whether or not it's an off-cut.
I usually tell people "If Walmart, Ikea, or Target are options for you, go for them. My furniture and theirs are nothing a like."
jbaird · 76 points · Posted at 18:21:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
sooooo much of our ideas of what something should cost have to do with stuff constructed using cheap materials using cheap labor and is a relatively recent invention..
Its likely that furniture always costed quite a lot.. a dining set for $1000 is only possible in the last 80 years or so..
Jimmy Carter has mentioned that when he was young and in the Navy, he would just make new furniture each time he moved, leaving the old furniture behind.
jbaird · 4 points · Posted at 19:52:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah I've been looking around for a kind of 'local cabinet maker' prices back when there was no factory furniture and not coming up with much..
There is a good discussion here of the time it would take but nothing on prices, now given that a cabinet maker should probably make some labor amount similar to the people that may want to buy the thing I guess current custom furniture is not far off from what regular furniture must have cost..
Would be interesting to see how people got by when that was the only option.. I'm sure some just ate on super simple kocked together furniture but I bet the middle class spent more money on furniture, furniture was passed down more, etc..
This is a big part of your answer. Bedroom furniture frequently went with the children when they moved out. Why? Because it was still in good shape and could be used for more generation.
Almost any bedroom furniture you buy these days won't last two generations. Heck, it's almost a sure bet that it won't last one.
My current bed room furniture is this beautiful cherry wood furniture set my great grandfather made when he was young (1910s-1920s) and hen proceeded to paint this ugly earthy green color because he thought the red was too severe. It's a lovely set of bed room furniture, and despite being around a century old, it's still in amazing shape.
Baneken · 3 points · Posted at 06:18:43 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Might be interesting for you to know then that Sears had their first housing kits and 'factory' furniture in their famed post catalog as early as 1860's and that the first furniture factories were operating at the Benelux countries as early as the late 18th century when steam engine based machinery became practical.
Sometimes that's the point. I like owning cheap stuff that I can easily get rid of if I decide to move across the world. It works for some people, and it doesn't for others.
I like owning cheap furniture, especially since so many people get rid of it so quick. With sites like Craigslist you can really find anything at any price range if you put in a few hours.
Those are completely valid points. IMO the guiding factors behind why the pallet wood furniture movement became so popular are cool. The DIY aspect of it is huge, the "perfect imperfections", the fact that it is recycling. All great ideas.
Going to a professional furniture maker really defeats the purpose though. Having me make it strips it of all value behind the movement.
locao69 · 1 points · Posted at 22:13:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm amused that I read as you were completely pissed off about pallet wood before and now you say it reasonable as a DIY project.
Aiognim · 5 points · Posted at 23:55:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Because they are completely different situations.
Someone doing DIY with pallet is good for the reasons he agreed are good.
People asking him to use shitty wood on a commissioned project that I assume be puts effort into and is proud of hits a nerve.
People want to be cool, so they try to define what is cool as what they can get. Pallet wood and cinder blocks are easy to get for low cost.
Lesp00n · 7 points · Posted at 20:13:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
To add to this, no your backyard pallet wood pintrest job is not worth $500 on craigslist, you didn't even buy the materials you fucking stole them!
I've been lurking craigslist etc for some inexpensive furniture cuz I'm broke af, and its fucking full of shit that's obviously armature made and made of poor quality material, but its priced like someone like yourself with actual skill made it.
Really? Maybe it's your area? When I've lived in cities there's always been an abundance of cheap furniture on CL--some of it of surprisingly good quality. There used to be a few sites that specialized in used furniture too, I know the one I used closed though...
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 10:42:10 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
*amateur
Lesp00n · 1 points · Posted at 12:41:16 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Damn autocorrect.
[deleted] · 14 points · Posted at 18:55:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oh god, I get the same thing with crochet. I make blankets, mostly - and for a good-sized, weighty, intricate 6'x8' afghan, you're looking at $150-$500 in supplies (ballpark, depending on what yarn I'm using it can go higher) plus four months' worth of my spare time. I'm not selling it to you for $30.
Yes, go right ahead and buy that stained, tattered, machine-knit-by-children-in-a-sweat-shop-fifteen-years-ago blanket from Goodwill. It's not the same thing at all.
Pintrest: "I MADE A VINTAGE RURAL HISTORIC GLUTEN FREE 8FTX 4FT WOODEN TABLE FOR $10 ANYONE CAN DO IT TOO."
Not mentioned: the materials were obtained for free and the work was done by a friend as a favor. We spend the $10 on a bottle of non gmo gluten free paleo vegan craft beer.
My wife is obsessed with pallets lately. She and her trashy parents are all about DIY furniture and are constantly bringing garbage home claiming it somehow can make our lives better
ooh that's actually a good idea. I've been looking for a cheap planter that I can put on my balcony since I live on the third floor of an apartment building. Where would one acquire a pallet?
Lesp00n · 3 points · Posted at 20:15:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
To add to the other commenter, retail places. When I worked for a grocery store we technically didn't own the pallets our products came in on but the logistics company wouldn't take all of the pallets back so we constantly had dozens out back.
Same man it pisses me off. There was a stack of pallets that was left on the property of the house/farm we just bought. So of course she wanted to make some benches out of them which I did and the wood has already warped because its shit wood. Luckily I've already found a guy in town with a bandsaw mill so I can get quality wood to replace the shit pallet bench tops.
Also, isn't the point of Pinterest DIY furniture so you can... you know do it yourself to save you the price of buying it at the store or getting someone else to do it?
Those are completely valid points. IMO the guiding factors behind why the pallet wood furniture movement became so popular are cool. The DIY aspect of it is huge, the "perfect imperfections", the fact that it is recycling. All great ideas. Going to a professional furniture maker really defeats the purpose though. Having me make it strips it of all value behind the movement.
Posted that in another comment. You hit the nail on the head
I think all artists/craftsmen can empathize with this. It sucks that laymen often can't seem to wrap their heads around the fact that offering to pay $50 for something that takes multiple days of work (again not factoring in cost of supplies) is more than insulting. I think it mostly comes down to people not realizing just how much time it can take to do something properly.
How did you get into that/where should I start if I like the idea of making furniture?
I have access to tools and plenty of time, but don't know where to start. It's always seemed like a pleasant way to work with my hands, and seems productive as well. Can you give me any pointers?
My go to is make something you want or need. Old dresser need replacing? Start with that. The easiest way to get into this craft is to start with something that's personal to you.
I've been through a curriculum and I can tell you I threw out half of the stuff I made because I only had to do them for marks.
What type of furniture do you do? All-wood constructions only or are you able to do couches and such also? Do you upholster chairs? I hear that's kind of a bitch.
Depends really. I have my own shop where I do commissions and what not. Those are generally all wood (a combination of particle, ply, and hardwood). At my full time job we make stuff for commercial use. Think store displays for clothing, countertops, stuff that's going to see a lot of wear and tear. That we use a lot of plastic laminates for those. By that I mean we build it out of particle board and then "glue" a decorative and protective coating on. For the displays as well we also have to work with metals and glass
I also really want to learn how to upholster, but I'm currently trying to weld
Cheap is relative. To be completely honest, I don't know of any retailers that do. Maybe a local boutique furniture store, but still probably not what you would consider cheap.
The reality of it is, solid wood furniture does cost a fortune. In addition to material costs, the amount of time it takes to make a board that's the size of an armoire takes 10 times as long as it does to cut plywood and laminate a veneer onto it.
Of course - I just mean relatively speaking. Do you think that amish suppliers offer good value, or not really?
Alternatively, are there non-hardwood materials that you think are still quite good but cheaper? I know for example that some of ikea's line actually uses solid pine (albeit a softer than typical pine).
but not when you're a mile away from where you're turning, and there are three other turns in the same direction as you're indicating.
don't waste that blinker fluid, it's so expensive and hard to find that so many people don't signal.
edit: NO. blinker fluid is NOT a thing. I'm being what's called, "FACETIOUS". jeez.
-MPG13- · 116 points · Posted at 17:45:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Blinker fluid sounds made up. I don't know enough about cars to say for certain though.
Where is your sense of adventure, text and see how far it goes :)
Among the thousands of tips, I'd give you two quickly: Remember to always change your oil at regular intervals, and don't neglect your breaks! I can elaborate a little more on the breaks (from my experience) if you need it.
Acquaintance got a used but fairly new (two year old) car from mom. They drove the car for about four years without ever changing the oil. Engine seized in the midst of a trip; car essentially totaled. Mom bought another newer used car for person, yaaay! We are now on year two. I have asked them if they are changing the oil regularly. They say yes, but I don't think so.
This is not the first time hearing such a story. The best one I was told is you can go 50k on an oil change and they just changed a motor - as if they couldn't understand. Check youtube for people dropping the oil pan after and you'll really understand!
I do all my own oil changes, buying oil and filters on sale and stocking up. I agree taking it in is a big hassle sometimes but unless you have an exotic car, they are very easy to do and anyone who puts off doing them should learn to do it themselves.
I'd highly suggest learning the basics of how a car works. An unfortunate number of mechanics will take advantage of someone who clearly doesn't know anything about cars. I'm no "expert", but I studied auto tech for a short while and so know how to do most repairs myself. Still have had people try to take advantage of me.
This. I learned how to read the obd2 codes and do basic replacement of sensors and stuff and I have saved a lot of money. I mean, a lot
funkem · 1 points · Posted at 22:20:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Good for you. Not sarcastically, I mean really, good on you for learning new things and building your skills. More people should do this not even to save money, but to just really know enough so that they won't get bullshit.
Just a tip though, don't always rely on the OBDII code to mean what you should fix. Throwing parts at a problem isn't a viable way to make repairs, and can be more costly in the end. Troubleshooting is going to be the most important thing. Say, you get a knock sensor fault code. That may not necessarily mean your knock sensor is bad, it could be something that isn't obvious causing the code to appear. Sometimes more than one code can be associated with one issue, sometimes a single fault code may appear and the problem is not directly correlated with the description. However, sometimes it is exactly what needs to be fixed!
Also note that combustion engines, no matter the size and type, need only three things: air, fuel, and spark. If something goes wrong, check the major components for those three things. You will more than likely quickly figure out what can be happening.
I am glad that you saved money though. It is a great feeling when accomplishing something you would have normally relied on someone else to do!
I have heard about mechanics taking advantage of people. Especially young women like me.
Y'all are gonna judge me, but I don't know how much I can ever figure out about cars. Lucky for me, I have a brother who is very good with cars. I have no intention of ever taking my car to a mechanic without my brother taking a look first, and then he'll probably insist on coming with me. So I'll be okay.
From the above comments I know more about cars than average. I don't think a lot but some. I saw that and was like wtf, they use a bearing to support the muffler, why. This is stuck in my head.
I am trying to figure out why a bearing, all the while he is talking about the sound different cars muffler's make. I was getting annoyed. I was like, just get to replacing the damn bearing I want to see what it supports. Then what he was saying registered and I was like fuck you, I'm out.
A lot of people try to trick new or inexperienced drivers by saying headlight fluid is the same way. Don't fall for that, and never get the cheap stuff!
Some batteries are electrical and need fluid. Large transformers are electrical and need fluid. Also, large Transformers leak some green fluid when hurt. Being electrical is not a reason to avoid topping off the blinker fluid.
If we want to stretch it that far that the electrolyte supports an electrical charge that runs the electrical circuit, sure you got me there :P That is truly a component of battery maintenance which could prevent the blinker not to function although not exclusive.
Also, large Transformers leak some green fluid when hurt.
Or 'regular' when the drain valve busts off :) Just be glad it's under vacuum.
-MPG13- · 2 points · Posted at 17:56:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
See, that's what I figured. what about brake fluid?
MjrK · 18 points · Posted at 17:58:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In case your question is genuine, brake fluid is real. When you press the brake pedal, a piston pushes on hydraulic fluid that then pushes in turn on other pistons in your brakes, pressing the pads against a disc connected to the rotating wheel assembly and stops your car.
engine oil = not real. put vegetable oil where the 710 cap is, it's virtually the same thing.
Druid51 · 7 points · Posted at 18:26:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
710 cap
lol
geak78 · 1 points · Posted at 19:52:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I beg to differ, although, I can't find the picture of it full. My rear light housing got cracked and the next rain filled it right up to the crack. I didn't notice until I was backing up at night and couldn't figure out why my reverse light was blinking. Got out of the car and the water sloshing around inside was making the light do crazy things.
Sord213 · 10 points · Posted at 17:53:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Actually the government recently subsidized blinker fluid so the prices are falling rapidly. Everyone should stop being cheap with their blinker fluid!
My rule of thumb is that I only turn once my turn is the only one left. For example, if I've got to turn right and there's three right turns before mine, I only turn on my blinker once I've passed all three. That way there's no confusion on which turn I'm taking.
But definitely more than 2 inches before you start making your turn/lane change. If you don't give people enough time to even notice that your blinker is on, it's about as effective as not using it at all.
Gavin Free, internet personality and professional dumbass. One time he referenced a race car driver who was doused in windshield wiper fluid and lit aflame, but mixed it up and called it headlight fluid. I think you can see where it comes into play here.
The way I learned it in driver's ed (in Virginia) is that you should turn on your blinkers 4 seconds before the turn if you're going 35+ mph, and 2 seconds before if you're going under 35 mph. I've always found that helpful
If there is a turning lane, you should be in that lane, before applying the breaks aswell. Not fucking grind down to 5mph on a 35 before moving over into the turning lane.
Xiuhtec · 9 points · Posted at 18:32:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I agree completely, but I have also seen very poorly engineered roads with turning lanes much too short for their speed limits.
gregsaw · 1 points · Posted at 18:40:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
For real. There's one near my house on a 55mph road with a turn lane that is maybe 4 or 5 car lengths long.
12thr33 · 2 points · Posted at 19:39:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not always. It depends on if that lane was designed for deceleration or just storage. Sometimes you'll see relatively short turn lanes on rural high speed roads that aren't long enough to safely decelerate in, and you need to brake before the lane begins.
[deleted] · 5 points · Posted at 17:55:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
slam on the brakes, veer into the other lane, then give the two-flash courtesy signal. "I signaled, bro! Why you gotta honk at me for changing lanes!"
you mean there's a better way?
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 17:43:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My favorite situation is when they decide to brake, signal, AND turn all in the span of a single second leaving almost no time to react.
THIS is what most people don't understand. The amount of people who slam on their brakes and then indicate whilst turning. It's drives me fucking insane.
HtownKS · 1 points · Posted at 20:24:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When your driving, and someone in front of you is signaling they want to get into your lane, let them in. I'm close to not blinking in said situation, because noone seems to respect it anyway.
HtownKS · 1 points · Posted at 20:24:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When your driving, and someone in front of you is signaling they want to get into your lane, let them in. I'm close to not blinking in said situation, because noone seems to respect it anyway.
The blinker purpose is to signal to other drivers what your intention is. If you just stop, put blinker on, then turn, no one would have any idea that you needed to turn. Now if you turn your blinker on a few moments before you turned, then started breaking, then turned, other drivers will easily observe what your intention is and give way.
So the whole point is that you are telling others what you are about to do within a reasonable time for them to react if needed. There is no need to use your blinker mid turn because at that point, everyone can see you are turning
guntis · 0 points · Posted at 18:14:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In my country we have law that it must be on before any manuevre. So if you intend to break for a intersection, change lanes, whatever, you must use signaling light.
jmxo92 · 0 points · Posted at 18:14:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This! I wish cops would give out tickets for this. The number of people who slow down, break, start turning, then put on their turn signal drives me nuts. It is such an easy concept to understand that it worries me that so many people just don't get it?
I will not slow down or accommodate people trying to merge into my lane unless they are using their signal. Especially because there are a lot of people on my commute that cruise in exit only lanes on the right, then swerve into the other lane (no signal) just before they're forced into the exit
Similarly, I used to get very upset about people who will ride the thru traffic lane until RIGHT before an exit then cut in, but I've adopted a policy that alleviates my rage and seems fair to me. Broken lines indicating a merge? I'll let you in no matter how late you're trying to merge. Solid lines or worse? Hope someone takes pity on you because you're not getting in here. (Usually the guy right behind me ends up taking pity, which pisses me off because, come on, you're rewarding his bad behavior)
I'm surprised by how often accidents don't happen in the Jersey turnpike. That highway should have an accident every 10 miles with how shitty driver's tend to be on it. Had to drive a good portion of it once, and I almost got in the accidents.
One guy crossed the lanes to get to the exit cutting me off temporarily but I had to hit the breaks hard. He barely made the turn off.
Another guy decided to speed up the shoulder to press the cars on left most lane. Scared the beejeezus out of me. I wasn't checking the shoulder for traffic...
The other one wasn't as interesting. Just got cut off closely.
This was all one trip. Lucky the ride back was late, so there wasn't much traffic. I hate taking the Jersey turnpike.
Another guy decided to speed up the shoulder to press the cars on left most lane. Scared the beejeezus out of me. I wasn't checking the shoulder for traffic...
That's what scares me. Kentucky didn't teach me to check the shoulder for traffic. Now I'm paranoid about being rear-ended because I forgot to do it.
I had a fun one in Pennsylvania about a month ago, while driving back to Kentucky for a few days. I'm in moderate traffic in the left lane, going the same speed as the rest of the lane with about two car lengths between me and the guy in front of me. This guy whips around me on the right, shoves his way into the left lane in front of me, and as he's entering the lane slams on his breaks as the traffic slows to a halt. He was breaking before I even knew he was changing lanes, and I had to go from 45 to 0 now with less than half a car length of leeway. I came within inches of rear-ending the bastard.
The worst part is that you would be deemed at fault. It sucks.
Russ3ll · 1 points · Posted at 20:24:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I've actually encountered mostly courteous drivers where I live in North-East Pennsylvania. Dumb, as in never fucking using their blinkers, but courteous.
This is exactly why I signal at the last minute (but I also merge only when I have tons of room - if it's bumper-to-bumper, I'll signal well ahead of time).
I used to always feel this way, but then also realized it so rarely happens, and if it does, the next car will leave space. But also, got to be confident enough to move, if you need lots is space, it may not be other drivers closing gaps, and you not being confident enough in the size of the gap made for you.
[deleted] · -7 points · Posted at 18:16:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yah this is why you don't signal, or you signal then immediately start the maneuver.
[deleted] · -4 points · Posted at 18:51:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
ComaVN · 5 points · Posted at 18:58:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Thanks for making a crappy situation a lot worse
aj3x · 6 points · Posted at 19:02:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And what does that make you? Who road rages and endangers everyone around you?
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:03:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Intentionally causing an accident moves you from basic moving violations of traffic interactions to note criminal territory and getting arrested for assault with a deadly weapon (a vehicle).
So yes... People carrying a gun and using it in that situation is logical. Cool the road rage, you're not in the right.
It seriously annoys me how many people fail to realize this. Recently, a friend of mine asked her grandpa why he didn't use turn signals and he replied "because it's no one's business where I'm going". Enraging..
wtf-m8 · 6 points · Posted at 18:35:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's when you just let it go. Let them get ahead, I'd rather be far away from the dicks than have them riding my ass. I try to always signal at least 2 seconds before I change lanes. I'm rarely in that big of a hurry.
Umm. I'm overtaking him when he puts his indicator on. That's what that lane is for.
[deleted] · -3 points · Posted at 18:04:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
eild · 6 points · Posted at 18:09:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The right lane?
[deleted] · -1 points · Posted at 18:13:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
eild · 1 points · Posted at 18:26:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Once again, the right lane? The exit lane? The slow lane? The "slower traffic keep right" lane? The lane you should be in? Either you are trolling in a really stupid way or you are just ignorant.
[deleted] · -1 points · Posted at 18:29:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
eild · 2 points · Posted at 18:34:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Different countries. My bad. I assume you are right then?
I think I follow you on an overtaking lane at 50mph on a 70mph road every morning, because you're planning to turn right in a mile and a half after two roundabouts and a set of traffic lights, and you're not confident you'll be able to change lanes later.
Also, seeing someone put on their turn signal does not mean you need to speed past them on the side they're signaling to switch to.
Crimsai · 3 points · Posted at 18:00:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My driving instructor always told me 'only signal when you're ready to move' when changing lanes, so I always wait for a gap, put my indicator on, then move a second or two later. Is that wrong? Obviously different when it comes to turning off the road.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:12:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's called defensive driving. By waiting for a gap, you are not forcing other cars to move out of your way. But this doesn't always work. If you're driving a long vehicle like a truck (especially transports) or a limo in moderate or heavy traffic, you will never find a gap big enough, so by signalling you're saying, "hold up for a second, I need to change lanes". Where I live (Toronto area), most people respect that if you're driving a truck, but not if you're driving a car.
This does not apply to BMW drivers though, because us common folk should just learn how to get out of the way without troubling the BMW driver to flip a switch.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:17:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm doing a tally in my head to see how many BMW drivers don't signal.
My SO would be on the highway and want to change lanes, but not put on her turn signal. She would then get frustrated when no one would let her over. I explained (and then reminded) that if you don't have your turn signal on, they have no idea you need to get over.
In a lot of cities I've driven through, people take that as a means to block you in and ignore you. Because they don't know what those flashing lights on your car mean anymore. (I assume.) You actively have to out-asshole them with your driving to actually get where you're going at all and I fucking hate it.
Hell the last time I was in pittsburg during bumper to bumper traffic, I had this beetle trying to merge in front of me by drifting into the vicinity of my front wheels. No signal, no speeding up to get in front of me. Just "Hey slow down so I don't wreck into you with my stupidity and clog up this tunnel and potentially kill you with the semi truck directly behind you that you're trying to stay in the visibility of"
Vlyn · 2 points · Posted at 19:37:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When we're talking about driving: Safety distance and no excessive speeding would get rid of 90% of accidents. Every time some nutjob sticks to my bumper I think: When I have to emergency brake due to anything in front of me, he'll ram into me. Three times by now I've actually had to fake brake in an emergency to give the moron behind me time to brake (And I could still stop in time due to 3-5 seconds safety distance).
Oh and overtaking in corners / illegal overtaking.
juvily · 2 points · Posted at 19:39:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't understand this at all.
But I've learned over time that if someone is going at least 5mph under - especially more - then most likely they're about to turn.
If I have a decent amount of space between me and the next car and the car beside me is moving weird, or a car is speeding up beside me, then I should be ready for a person that might not signal.
But fuck you if you start hitting your brakes and signal AS YOU'RE TURNING. Why..
As a pedestrian, I hate people who don't signal. Before I moved, my walk to/from Uni made me cross a road with a roundabout (showing my Irishness here), South went to the local Uni/Industrial area, East went to a local seaside tourist trap town (and had the entrance to a chain supermarket on it), West went into the city proper, and North to the area of town that's residential heavy. I had to cross on the east side, and it always frustrated me that no one EVER indicated because, y'know, it being a roundabout they could be going anywhere. After getting cut off three or four times in a row by a car you thought was going into town/back home, I was so frustrated I ended up going home and beating my son with jumper cables.
That way they can quickly fill in that space and prevent you from moving.
I still use my indicators. But I use them as indicators, not requests for permission. If you speed up to be an asshole after I signalled, cover your brakes b/c I'm coming over.
IanT86 · 2 points · Posted at 17:43:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Jeeze - I've just spent some time driving in North America and I don't understand what the threshold is for your testing here. I don't mean to be a dick, and I am generalizing for the story, but on the whole I've never seen this level of terrible driving.
You guys are ultra aggressive to the point it just makes accidents more likely, you don't give people room (which would speed up the traffic) you don't indicate before you move, you have a strange system where I'm never sure if pedestrians or the vehicles have the right of way....
The roads are so, so simple compared to Europe and everyone is in an automatic...I have no idea how things can be this bad.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 18:41:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
IanT86 · 1 points · Posted at 19:07:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm actually in Canada at the moment and have seen exactly what you say first hand.
Thing is, if you drive in Europe there are a lot more variables on the road - the traffic systems radically alter from place to place, the roads can be very tight, often cities mix between one way systems and no car lanes, there are much higher levels of bikes on the road (London for example), there are much higher level of things like round-a-bouts, essentially a lot more to think about, there are far more taxis, buses etc the overall system is far more complex as it is built on roads and networks designed for a fraction of the populous who were driving horses and carts, but now have to deal with huge traffic flows.
In North America - for the most part - it is a fairly steady stream of traffic, at a far lower speed to Europe, on roads built relatively recently so they are wide, straight and easy to navigate. However, with all that said I've still seen such abysmal driving and honestly dangerous behavior all over.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:18:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
IanT86 · 1 points · Posted at 21:19:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Hmmm I've lived in North America for nearly 4 years and have travelled a fair bit during that time. You're right, I've not seen all of America, but I've seen a fair amount. Equally I've lived and travelled all over Europe and Australia, so have a fairly good perspective on things.
Just my opinion at the end of the day, from what I've seen here it is a far less complex system with far worse driving standards.
But it's a threat to my standing in the great Nascar race that is commuter traffic ! The only proper response is to speed up into your blind spot to prevent your challenge, lest you arrive at the next red light seconds before me!
Around here that's just letting the enemy know your plans.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:16:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I learned to take a quick look at the vehicle's tires when I feel like they might switch lanes but they're not signalling. It does work most of the time. People annoys the fuck out of me.
AND if you're sitting stopped, waiting to pull out, if your use a turn signal, I can know where and when youre turning and avoid you and give you space to pull out. Or you can just sit there for 10 min then peel out without looking and dann near hit my ass
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:24:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I live in Louisville KY and if you signal to change lanes people will accelerate so that you don't cut them off. I moved here a year ago and it's pretty bad. I've lived in 5 places and this has to have the most aggressive/inconsiderate drivers I've seen. My insurance premiums increased by 33% when I moved here. The sad part is that I've become more aggressive when driving since moving here because if you don't people will quite literally drive all over you. I'm going to be buying a dash cam very soon.
I know this is right in theory, and I agree with it. Unfortunately, where I live 100% of people (yes, even Gandhi would do this if he lived here) in my area will see your turn signal and accelerate to close any gap so you can't move over a lane.
As a result, I signal AS I'm coming over instead of giving warning. If that makes me a dick, sorry, that's what DC traffic will do to you. . .
Mewn · 2 points · Posted at 20:29:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
will see your turn signal and accelerate to close any gap so you can't move over a lane
Why would anyone ever do that? What do you gain from doing that?
I don't know, I try not to drive like that, but I think being stuck in minimum 90 mins of traffic every day makes you really fight for basically every inch on your commute.
It helps that I don't have to drive in rush hour anymore. . .
I love when people wait until there is an opening to turn it on and merge. Why not turn it on and maybe someone will give you the space instead of waiting for an opportunity.
Geta-Ve · 1 points · Posted at 20:01:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I find most people don't do this because they think nobody will let them in if they put their signal on too early. So most people feel like they have to sneak in or jump in to the lane instead of smoothly merge when an opening is given.
And hey. You know what? If you miss your turn or exit, no big fucking deal! There are others. When almost everybody is a walking GPS, then nobody should be lost. Or, you know, just use the cardinal directions.
Where I live, when the other car sees your signal, they speed up so you can't get infront of them, no matter how far away they are. And if you do get in, they make sure to pull up behind up horns blazing
but make sure to turn it off when you complete your merge and not keep it on for another 15 seconds. Making me brake because I think you're trying to get into the lane I'm in regardless of our speed differences, then the person behind me almost rear-ends me. Then the accordion effect happens and morning traffic has just been born...also if you're trying to move into another fast lane during traffic (not out of necessity), wait for an opening > signal > then move. If you just keep you signal on, expecting someone to slam on their brakes and let you in then you're asking for an accident...when I see a blinker like that I'm assuming they either want to get rear-ended and $$ from an insurance claim, or they're just not paying attention and will merge without really looking..This is why HOV lanes always have accidents - you're going 10mph merging into a lane ppl are driving 60mph, don't barge in thinking you have a right just because your blinker is on. /rant
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 21:21:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In NZ, they're called an "indicator" rather than "turn signal". The idea is that you will indicate where you're going to go, then go there.
...although I suppose that applies to "signal" too...
but, in CA at and NY from my experiences, this also signals other drivers to speed up or slow down and stay next to you so they can cut you off before you can get in front or behind them.
Yeah, cutting me off and THEN indicating it just feels like tripping someone and then stepping on them. Got the message when you cut me off there pal, but thanks I guess.
Also the belief that using your indicator means you can go/ are free from wrong doing. I've had more people than I can count almost plow into me and then look insulted when I honk at them because they had their indicator on. That thing isn't magical, it just informs other drivers of your plans, it does NOT remove those other drivers from this dimension freeing you to do whatever you want.
Schizo2 · -6 points · Posted at 17:13:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Someone has to comment on turn signals in every thread. Way to be a basic bitch.
My mother yells when people do this shit fuck people like that
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 17:22:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Maybe in the future we can use that brain wave reading tech to control blinkers. It already only takes a very small movement of one finger, but that's too much effort for most people.
You said it. Break your leg and get a cast, everyone thinks it's cool and is supportive. Develop depression and suddenly you're faking it. You're just in a phase. You'll be fine. Seems we're only allowed to get injuries that you can see :/
Junior year, first semester finals, I had to write essays for all four classes I had for A days, English, History, NJROTC, Economics. I had to wash off the edge of my hand after the second and fourth one due to all the graphite on it.
I could never play catch with a baseball at a friend's house.
Eating at the dinner table I have to sit on the left end or else I bump elbows.
Every time someone tries to teach me something (golfing stance, throwing a ball, etc) I have to figure how to do it backwards (opposite?) or they show me how to do it backwards and it's awkward.
I FUCKING HATE SCISSORS. FUCK.
In some cases you simply just have to learn to use your right hand to make things easier (e.g. using scissors, ffs..). I've had to learn to play guitar and violin righty because nobody owns a lefty guitar (It's nice to be able to just pick one up wherever) and I can't join an orchestra with a lefty violin.
And btw I mean it's fine. It was a little irritating trying to figure out how to shake hands since I instinctually gesture with my left hand but other than that it's mostly ok.
The space I leave between me and the car in front of me is not for others to pull into and then immediately stop, slow down, or turn without a signal. Its called proper following distance!
These days I find it's simply less mental effort to follow at a distance, that way every brake light isn't an immediate emergency. Maybe I'll brake, maybe I'll just avoid altogether, but at least the distance gives me the option. Plus I have a better idea of what's in front of the car ahead of me.
[deleted] · 9 points · Posted at 19:57:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
ZOMG. When I was a teenager, you know the age when people "think they're immortal"? I had to ride with one of my departed relative's people in Massachusetts. This guy was glued so tight to the bumper of the car in front of us I could give a back rub to their passengers. I thought I was going to die.
Ahhhhh.
One of my cars is a stick and I leave a little space and people nose in. I gotta ride the clutch and gun it in first to keep it from happening in rush hour traffic.
Related - when a line of cars are at a stop light and they creep forward so now there's like a whole car's length between you and the car in front of you, but you drive stick so you don't feel like putting it in gear just to move forward 10 feet. Then the car behind you honks at you to move forward. It's a stop light, we're going to start moving at the same time and being 10 feet closer isn't going to help anything!
To add to that...when you drive standard, stop on a hill, and people pull up behind you. Stop at a normal distance then start to creep up as they get impatient. Your start goes from casual to better be perfect real quick.
Also known as pop that E-Brake, start accelerating til you feel the pull and then let the E-Brake out. Only reserved for the most terrible situations. Those and my driveway cause it's super steep and I get out to open the garage door.
same; I leave space so that I can cruise and hopefully not even have to shift into first. honestly, though, driving in southern California, it barely matters how many cars edge in front me. they rarely ever make it past my line of sight for the whole 30 mile commute anyway.
[deleted] · 14 points · Posted at 18:58:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My brother rides motorcycles and had a serious accident because someone didn't stop behind him at a light. He was okay. Thankfully he was wearing a helmet, jacket, and gloves. But since then, I do my best to watch out for motorcyclists.
Gaaaahhhh!!! This! This! A thousand times, THIS!!! I'm an extremely cautious and patient driver, and I frequently get cut off by ignorant fools that nearly cause an accident just for a few extra seconds.
Don't you just love it when the car behind you decides you're going too slow, cuts off into the little space between your car and the one in front, and slams on their brakes, continuously tailgating the car in the front? I do.
sometimes when I'm feeling petty, i'll gun it once they lane change so that they can't get in front of me. well, mostly it's to be petty; sometimes it's honestly just because I don't want to be behind a tailgater and be stressed out about whether they're braking because of tailgating or because traffic actually stopped ahead.
Oh yes. Fun story, I want to go faster too. I just want to be safe about it. But thanks for not taking into account that I'm not actually going slower than the guy in front of me.
i wish people understood this. where i live, if you leave more than a car length's space between yourself and the car in front of you, that space will get taken unfortunately
I've seen a line of 10 cars driving with a spacing of about one car length between them at full highway speeds. No exaggeration. That works most of the time.
I second this, but in regards to larger commercial vehicles. That 20-50 ft of space the driver leaves between his large truck and the vehicle in front of him is the distance he needs to react if shit hits the fan in front of him. It's not there for you to cut him off and then drive like you have no brain matter between your ears. If you do this, you fail to realize that you are in fact nothing more than a nat sitting in the barrel of a shot gun for two reasons. (1) The front of a large truck is a blind spot, and (2) if brakes need to be applied quickly for whatever reason, you will lose by being run over by said truck.
a month or so ago, I had a large truck tailgating me aggressively (I was going the same speed as traffic in front me, I just had left a few car lengths in front of me since I knew traffic had a tendency to just come to a full stop out of nowhere). sure enough, traffic in front of me went from 60mph to a full stop and this truck almost plowed into me because he needed more time to brake. it was terrifying and he continued to tailgate me or would pull up next to me and lay on his horn at me the rest of the commute.
yeah wasn't a semi, but was definitely commercial. looked like a really large moving truck, but had no distinguishing logo. he never got in front of me, so I never saw the back to see if there was a number or anything; he just would tailgate me or if there was space in the lane next to me, he'd pull up next to me and just harass me.
That's so fucked. People like that are just accidents waiting to happen. I;m glad it didn't escalate.
Jnk1296 · 3 points · Posted at 20:15:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Situations like this make me want to just hit the brakes a little harder than normal just to teach the assholes a lesson. Traffic stopped in front of me and I had to react, idiot behind me slammed into me because he doesn't know how to drive. New car for me, citation and insurance premium raise for idiot, all is good.
sigh If only the world actually could work that way.
edit: the above is a hypothetical. It did not actually happen.
i witnessed an accident like that, four cars were involved and the only reason I wasn't involved was because the guy behind me wasn't tailgating me. I felt bad watching him get hit because of three tailgaters behind him. sorry to hear about your accident, I hope you weren't too badly hurt.
I always feel stupid when people talk about this sort of thing becuase I don't understand how people are supposed to change lanes otherwise.
An ex of mine would go into a rage every time someone did that to him and I'm just sitting there thinking "well, that guy just needed to turn into the parking lot. I don't see the big deal"
I've always felt, as long as they're not cutting me off or slamming on their brakes than I don't really care
I agree with you. I would really like to know how everyone who disagrees here would switch lanes. I understand the frustration, but what is one supposed to do?
I sense some hypocrisy going on here.
I get needing to switch lanes and I happily let folks in when they use a signal. My issue is when there's little space between me and the car in front of me and people don't use a signal to indicate they need over. Then I'm forced to slow down or slam on my brakes to avoid hitting the person who unexpectedly cut over in front of me.
Was driving on the highway yesterday and this crazy asshole decided he wanted to pass in the right lane and dart into that tiny space between the left lane cars. We were all doing 80, there was no reason for this jerk to be doing that except to be a massive asshole. Nearly caused like three accidents in 15 minutes.
Better believe I rolled down my window and gave him the long obvious middle finger when I had the opportunity.
Obviously I'm still salty about it though. I hope that jackass got pulled over and arrested for reckless driving.
juvily · 2 points · Posted at 19:35:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I hate that, at considerable speeds, I leave an average of a car length's distance between me and the next person.
Does not mean I want that gap actually filled by a car.
I like to have space in case the person in front of me does a hard brake, so I can notice that shit and have the space to slow down and stop if need be. Not so I can slow down...then brake hard because you decided to merge in front of me last minute.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:43:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I also exercise the - press the break just enough for the break lights to engage but not slow the car down - method to get a tailgater off my ass. This is very effective when you're anticipating a slow down and you can just feel that the asshole behind you is not going to react until the last minute. A good driver can anticipate the flow of traffic and respect the space around them. a driver's license should be a privilege - tests should be more challenging and you should be retested. alright im done.
If I'm being tailgated aggressively and there isn't anyone behind the person tailgating me, I just take my foot off the accelerator. Its passive aggressive, I know, but it forces them to slow down gradually.
You probably live in the same area (or at least state) as me. Following distance and stopping distance (how far away you should be from the car in front of you when stopped) are not things here. Like when you stop at a light you should be able to see the back tires of the car in front of you sitting on the ground at the edge of your hood (I learned this shit in drivers ed), why? Because that way if your foot slips off the brake or you mistake the green arrow for the green light you don't plow into the guy in front of you. What do people do instead? Get so fucking close to the car in front of them that they're practically touching. I've been rear ended twice because of that shit.
I hate when there's enough space behind me for them to get in and turn they HAVE to get in front of me to turn. I mean mug those fools and honk. Then I get over it. I have lightning road rage. For the moment I'm angry and then on I move.
Sometimes, I wish there was some kind of retractable bars you could put up in front of your car (like the schoolbuses have, but longer) so that cars wouln't cut into my safety zone.
Se7enLC · 1 points · Posted at 20:18:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You and I, and everyone else, though. Nobody leaves more space in front of them than what they think they need for proper following distance. So that means that if there's any amount of traffic, anyone trying to merge in is going to have to pick somebody to cut in front of into a space that isn't large enough. And if everyone is predictably exceeding the speed limit, that person deciding they don't want to exceed the limit is going to seem like a real jerk for cutting in front and slowing down.
I say if you don't give people room to merge in front of you, you lose the right to complain when they merge without enough space. Now, when there's 5 car lengths before the car in front of me and they wait for my front bumper before shuffling over, fuck them.
I am not sure where you live, but in New York you will be going 70+ on any of the interstates passing people on the left lane. Right as you are about to pass someone going 65 or slower they will no signal you or signal right as they merge into the lane you are using going 5+ mph faster. That is not safe.
When I see vehicle going faster than me in the lane behind me I merge to a slower lane. When I am thinking about merging into another lane I will slow down and wait patiently for the faster vehicle to pass me and get behind them.
I like to call it, there isn't enough room on these tiny over crowded streets for all of us, if you don't move it you are going to be stuck standing still. Old west style, two guns ready in their holsters and I am going there whether you like it or not.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:28:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Part of the reason for leaving that space is so that people can change lanes when they need to. You don't own a lane throughout your whole journey. Slowly tap your brakes and make more room. I'm not condoning people who change lanes without signalling. But enforcing imaginary road rules are equally bad. If there is enough room for a car to get in and you accelerate to stop letting them in, it's called a reactive maneuver and is equally bad
I like this a lot and i think your (totally random) example actually highlights what you're saying really well. A lot of people are just very poor at seeing things from other's perspective.
Ok. When the gf and I get into arguments it feels like I always have to de escalate the issue (and thus it feels like I am not allowed to feel my feeling fully, no, I have to rationalize the situation instead.) and tell her what to do. Like, she gets overwhelmed and somewhat shuts down. Even when she's the aggressor I have to stop and help her deal with her shit (because I care about her) but she doesn't for me and it feels like it's because empathizing for her (in such situations) is hard. It's frustrating.
Aiognim · 3 points · Posted at 00:14:33 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you figure out how to teach empathy, please fill me in. Then let's go talk to trump supporters.
And not to say your situation was similar to mine, since that is pretty vague, but any relationship where I could never feel my feelings without her getting wound up in her own, were ones I was better off walking away from way before I actually did.
[deleted] · 39 points · Posted at 18:19:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sorry if I sound like an ass but that's shallow materialism, which is probably why people are trying to convince you to give it up. I've been there, it doesn't make you happy, there are so many other important things in this world. Your fancy car is, to me, a symbol that you don't really give a shit about your fellow man because you could be driving a much more economical car without really sacrificing anything in terms of comfort or convenience or safety and you could have used the money you saved to help people less fortunate than you are. Did you know that if you make $32k in the US you are in the global 1%? Anyone that earns more than $32,000 USD per year is wealthier than 99% of the people in the world... There are A LOT of people, not just in far off lands but almost certainly in your own city who are struggling to meet the basic needs of life...
when I see people driving luxury vehicles or show-off vehicles (you know what I mean) I look down on them and assume they are either unethical or ignorant (most I assume are just ignorant and caught up in their own egos).
Before you write me off by assuming I'm one of those poor people who is just looking for a handout I'm a firmware engineer and I make pretty good money for it... Materialism will make you miserable.
[deleted] · 22 points · Posted at 19:23:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I understand why you like these things, pretty much everyone starts off liking fast fun cars and fancy clothes... Few evolve beyond that point though.
(FWIW I of course agree with you about maintaining what you own, like upkeep on your house and yard... that's oddly out of place here and not like the other examples you gave)
[deleted] · 21 points · Posted at 19:51:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
so what did you do with the money you saved from purchasing a regular car over a luxury or sports car? Did you spend it all on other people's health and well being and happiness?
and what about one's own well being and happiness? If I derive happiness from a nice car why should I ignore my own desires and live a less happy life?
[deleted] · 4 points · Posted at 20:07:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't want you to view this exchange as antagonistic... I just want to talk to you about this.
Why is it that a fancy car makes you happy? You say for entertainment but would an equally fast/capable yet hideous rusty car be just as desirable? If not then perhaps it's not merely for entertainment but as an ego boost. Tell me honestly it has nothing to do with how you think it makes people think of you...
The problem is that people admire people with flashy cars when it's not something admirable at all, and the people who are receiving that admiration were likely, at least partly, drawn to purchasing the car in the first place because they expected to be admired for it. I don't believe for one second that it's just about the fun of driving the car and has nothing to do with how other people think about you because of it.
Our society has a problem idolizing people who don't deserve it while ignoring those who do. I bet you can't tell me the name of the scientist who donated his cure for a disease that killed millions every year even though he could have patented it and made a fortune, but I bet you could tell me the name of most of the top list of the wealthiest people in the world for no reason OTHER than that they are wealthy.
oh my lord you're insufferable. Yes dude you are correct that there are people out there that make major sacrifices in life to help others and it's admirable.
however, people just don't respect those who don't look out for their own self interest. Scroll up there's a top post on this question about how people who lie down and get walked on will her criticized for not being flat enough.
As to why you're insufferable - nobody really wants to live a life of pure frugality and altruism. People have different feelings about how much to be selfish and how much to be selfless.
It's quite rude for you to criticize someone else's position on the spectrum of altruism and selfishness when you obviously can be criticized by someone better than you. Everybody knows they should try and do better but no one needs to be constantly fucking reminded and patronized. Grow up and respect your fellow man.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 20:27:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Knowing that Salk gave away his polio vaccine, something I'm pretty sure they teach in high school, is a weird metric to base your sense of superiority on.
Bill Gates literally changed the world with Windows and is using his enormous wealth to try and eradicate Malaria from the world. Jeff Bezos is in the process of changing how we all consume things. Those seem like valid reasosns to know their names beyond "they're wealthy."
More importantly, how does knowing or not knowing people's names reflect on what you contribute to the world at all?
I read it, didn't response because I'm not judging.
I know the vast majority of people are slaves to their ego, blind to the plight of their fellow man, and enamored with their own lust for shiny baubles. It's human nature, we've been this way since we evolved away from our primate ancestors, and even longer still since we see the same behavior in our modern great ape cousins.
I was just trying to nudge someone in the right direction. There are demonstrably better and worse ways to live... and while we have made great progress technology we've basically stagnated psychologically for thousands and thousands of years. We are still mostly tribal, ego-driven apes. One day I hope we will all move on.
I know I sound like a religious zealot but I'm actually an atheist. Ego and lust and greed are primal instincts every bit as real as fear, but while most of us learn to stop being afraid of the dark very few of us ever learn to transcend those other instincts that were instilled in us by evolution (and do note that those instincts DID have an evolutionary purpose but we are beyond those purposes at this point, just like fear of the dark had a purpose that we are also beyond now).
guydawg · 4 points · Posted at 20:10:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You most certainly are judging. Maybe that's not the word you'd choose but you're judging his motivations and whole character based on his desire to have nice stuff
I think you mean I'm making assumptions, but humans are not all that unique, and the desire for fancy stuff is fairly common across all of us and the reasons for that desire are pretty well known and understood.
I'm making reasonable assumptions that I am fairly certain are true.
Humans are not just spiritual beings; we live in the material world, and derive pleasure in part from material things. To deny that aspect of our nature would be silly and harmful to our well-being. Likewise, rampant materialism uncontrolled by reason and neglect of our spiritual contentment is just as harmful.
Also, the point of the original parent comment is that different people value different things, and that people project their values onto others. It seems that you are projecting what you perceive as the lack of value (not monetary value, but personal value) of material things onto someone whose values are different.
Except in this case nearly EVERYONE has a desire for fancy things, it doesn't matter if it's cars or clothes or jewelry or electronics, the evolutionary reason for this desire is the same and is well known and understood.
The default case, the thing your born with, is a desire for flashy fancy things. It takes maturity and introspection and understanding to move beyond that.
It's almost as if you're stuck in your own world, like the parent comment said. Your platonic version of unethical and ignorant are completely formed from your own experiences and upbringing.
I've been there, it doesn't make you happy, there are so many other important things in this world.
Maybe for you, but other people have other likes wants and desires in this world.
Your fancy car is, to me, a symbol that you don't really give a shit about your fellow man because you could be driving a much more economical car without really sacrificing anything in terms of comfort or convenience or safety and you could have used the money you saved to help people less fortunate than you are.
Would owning a tesla mean that I don't give a shit about my fellow man? It's a luxury car with the highest safety rating of all existing cars, and pollutes by single point emissions. Should I buy a bike? or does steal manufacturing cause too much pollution? Maybe I should walk everywhere. The world is not one extreme or another, it's spectrum of choices.
Did you know that if you make $32k in the US you are in the global 1%? Anyone that earns more than $32,000 USD per year is wealthier than 99% of the people in the world... There are A LOT of people, not just in far off lands but almost certainly in your own city who are struggling to meet the basic needs of life...
And the needs of the individual are just as important as the needs of others. Should one sleep in their car because someone sleeps in a cardboard box elsewhere?
when I see people driving luxury vehicles or show-off vehicles (you know what I mean) I look down on them and assume they are either unethical or ignorant (most I assume are just ignorant and caught up in their own egos).
Maybe you should try searching for the reasons why you have contempt for other people? You don't know their situation, just as they do not know yours.
Before you write me off by assuming I'm one of those poor people who is just looking for a handout I'm a firmware engineer and I make pretty good money for it... Materialism will make you miserable.
Maybe it made you miserable, maybe not. Your own misery may or may not directly correlated to materialism.
Lesp00n · 3 points · Posted at 20:07:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There's a difference in shallow materialism and wanting decent things. The person you are replying to didn't specify, but you assumed they want shit like fancy cars and tailored clothes. I assumed they meant they don't want to drive a beater and they want clothes that actually fit them and express their sense of fashion. Neither of those things have to be expensive or shallow materialism.
I value my vehicle, quite a bit actually. I drive a 5 year old Honda Civic. That's not exactly excessive materialism. It's probably one of the most boring cars out there, both aesthetically and drive-wise. But I value it highly, because its reliable and doesn't look like trash.
You made a shit-ton of assumptions, but valuing material possessions can literally just be not dressing like you're homeless, driving a car that isn't a piece of shit, and maintaining your home so the roof doesn't cave in.
We are an extreme minority... just look at all the downvotes lol
It's really too bad, humanity has come so far technologically but basically stagnated psychologically for thousands of years. It's all still tribalism and ego and greed.
You are being downvoted because you are coming across as pompous and self-righteous, not because everyone is sad that their materialistic world view is being challenged.
I don't believe it's possible to state this message without coming across that way, and it was completely expected that the vast majority would not only disagree but be unhappy with what I said.
The message that everyone should take a vow of poverty to serve the poor? Or just not spend money on things you personally don't like?
Can you give me the main thrust of your argument without making value judgments on people's individual likes and dislikes?
guydawg · 1 points · Posted at 15:06:35 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
it's because your message is basically attacking someone
" I think that people who focus on materialistic things are the biggest contributors to pollution and other environmental problems" would be more factual and less douche
"you're a piece of shit for driving a nice car" is just shaming and being an asshole
unless you live in a treehouse, make your own tools, grow your own food, spend all your free time volunteering and recycling, and walk everywhere you need to go? assuming you don't.
Compassion and not being distracted from our higher selves is our test here. Most people just, sadly, think that everything they perceive in 3 dimensions is everything and important. Idk, real, lasting satisfaction comes from charitable giving. Its scientifically proven, yet everywhere in our culture is consume, consume, consume. Really optimistic that our unpopular opinion will gradually become more accepted the more common knowledge the mental health benefits associated with helping others becomes.
Ya lets all live frugal like the people from Manila, Philippines. They are CLEARLY enjoying life and what it has to offer. Why indulge in things that make life easier and better for us if we can live like homeless people to give money to the homeless /s.
[deleted] · 19 points · Posted at 18:15:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
[deleted] · 9 points · Posted at 19:13:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
for every person I've met like this, I've met another that doesn't wear nice clothes because they have no confidence at all.
Worth noting they're not independent and can be quite tied together. People who value nice clothes will treat someone differently if they don't wear nice clothes, which will impact confidence.
Further, people who don't care about nice clothes are still generally aware that it's a social norm and the average person is judging them on their appearance, so they will conform to at least some degree. Not conforming at all is usually indicative of some sort of deeper problem.
This is just one example, but deviating significantly from social norms in general can have a broader indirect impact and is often caused by deeper issues.
definitely a good one to bring up. The example that came to mind first for me, is people who are really social and love interacting with people who don't understand that not everyone is the same.
i got one from j.crew several years ago and it's held up well. in general, their quality has gone downhill recently and the last item i bought from there about a year ago is barely together. I would check with sub reddits like frugal male fashion or male fashion as im not a big coat guy. peacoats are usually solid though
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 18:42:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's called the ego and it's there to protect you from going mad.
Or when you go to the gym and you aren't in good shape and think everyone is staring at you...
Literally no one gives a shit about you. No one is looking at you unless you are a human spectacle in some way. Our ego would rather have us be the center of negative attention than acknowledge the reality that people don't even really see you or care about you.
Reminds me at my history teacher who would claim I had no self-respect due to the poor state of my notes
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 19:31:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Once you're in the professional world, being aware of your appearance is crucial. There are some people who clearly obsess too much over luxury apparel, but for the most part it's healthy to value good looking clothes.
The purpose of dressing nice is not to show off - the purpose is to NOT come across as disheveled and being out of the norm. It's best to dress to your audience and your peers - this provides a simple form of authentication.
Nobody trusts a surgeon who walks into the hospital wearing dirty or ugly clothes. In a business meeting, if you are poorly dressed, you are going to fight an uphill battle just to build raport. The same can be said for dressing overtly flamboyantly. If you are not the top 1% in your field, it's unlikely you can justify dressing outside of the norm. Doing so only hinders yourself and those around you.
I can only speak for men, but dressing correctly is a learned skill that takes time, effort, and experimenting. Many young professionals have very little awareness of how they look to everyone sitting around them. When this is the case, how am I as a manager going to treat them? I cannot trust them to be front of clients or vendors without supervision, because they don't know how to present themselves. They are representing not only themselves, but me and the company itself.
I don't expect all young professionals to have a $25,000 wardrobe of Brooks Bros at the age of 22, but I do expect them to at least learn to wash and iron their clothes, groom themselves, and avoid "unique" items such as a skull and crossbones choker necklace.
People would be amazed at how much something as simple as ironing can do to improve their appearance. You should care about your appearance, because you can be goddamn sure other people will expect you to.
My parents both came out of not-quite-poverty and my father's hard work put them into the upper(ish) middle class. My dad loved gardening and wanted to buy a pickup truck, but my mom was horrified by the idea and absolutely refused to let him. In her mind they'd instantly become white trash, at least in the eyes of the neighbors. My dad saw the utility of it, but she only had image in her mind. She wasn't shallow intellectually, but was desperate not to be seen as low-class.
The biggest issues with AI aren't going to look like Skynet. They'll look a lot more like Dilbert.
We aren't going to see some global system that decides that John Connor has to die... we're going to see five or six completely unrelated, competing, or interconnected in unintended and untested ways, that completely fuck many John Connors over, but since they don't affect a majority of the population in the same way, we'll just accept it... until we're in a deep hole and we start to realize what's going on.
[deleted] · 27 points · Posted at 17:39:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
thanks for the tip! i'm personally inclined to believe the types of bostrom, kurzweil, hawking, musk, etc, but/and i appreciate well laid out criticism seperate from "i'm working on an image recognition AI, my AI will never go rogue, hence AI will never go rogue".
so thank you!
[deleted] · 9 points · Posted at 19:39:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The issue with it is less that people doubt "singularity" type AI is a possibility at all, but more that we're so far away from it in terms of technology and theory that it's hard to make intelligent statements on the subject. I've read Bostom's book -- he openly admits that most of it is mere speculation, and that some of the things he's saying are very likely completely false.
Today's AI is nowhere near human-level intelligence. It's an issue when people associate a machine that can drive a car, but do literally nothing else, with some sort of all-powerful robot overlord, and people have been predicting that robots would conquer the earth since the 1950s. Belief in an eventual AI god that brings world peace and immortality makes for a good religion, but we're fooling ourselves if we think we'll have any idea when or what will happen when technology reaches that point.
I am largely uneducated on the matter, but like anybody else, I can see that today's AI isn't very good. We are still a thousand years from creating intelligence to rival our own.
But I do not think it will be humans that create the first rival consciousness. All we need to do is teach an AI to study AI and give it the required tools to replicate and improve itself... And then it wiill only be a short time until they surpass us.
That's how I see it. Does not feel very far off imo.
I think: we are a ways off, but 1000 years is likely wrong.
Think about how much faster all kinds of research goes with just incremental AI improvement?
Id bet that AI will be a more scary tool long before it is scary on its own. But on that same note, using it as a tool will yield staggeringly fast research.
Aiognim · 1 points · Posted at 00:03:07 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I am largely uneducated...
That explains that.
Stuff we have today would be magic to people less than 100 years ago. It only gets crazier.
[deleted] · 6 points · Posted at 19:55:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That concept is basis for a large fraction of Bostrom's book. The issue is that while that seems simple, teaching an AI to improve itself is an extremely difficult task. How do you define "improvement"? The AI would have to have an inherent ability to understand its own code and a very complicated definition of "intelligence" to optimize for.
In other words, the AI already needs to be close to human-level intelligence to be able to make meaningful improvements to itself.
There's also no guarantee that an AI as smart as a human would improve itself very quickly. It's possible it could take off and form a superintelligent god, but it's also possible that progress could be really slow for a long time, taking years and years, even if it improved exponentially.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 20:08:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
All we need to do is teach an AI to study AI and give it the required tools to replicate and improve itself...
Hmmm...easier said than done. For example, Google's DeepMind AI taught itself to walk recently. But remember that it only happened because it was given 90% of the answer. This all took place in a physics simulator, whereby the AI is given appendages and the sim has values for momentum, force, acceleration, et. al.
There's not a whole lot that an AI can teach itself to do without human programming guiding it at this point. It has no frame of reference, no concept of outside dynamics, and can't "learn" abstract theories. We think of things like walking as products of quantitative science, which is certainly true for measuring progress and function. However, to teach one's self to walk is a purely abstract venture. A two year old has no concept of the physical requirements, only the organic ability to "feel" that it should be so.
Making an AI that can instill these abstractions in itself or other entity is equivalent to trying to teach your dog to teach another dog what the command "sit" means without you ever actually saying it to him.
Hyndis · 2 points · Posted at 21:04:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The brain of a housefly is far simpler than that of a human's, and yet despite rubbing only a few neurons together an ordinary housefly is capable of doing what requires a computer a tremendous amount of processing power to do.
A housefly can do that with just a few cells.
I wonder if this may be a weakness of digital computer. Using discrete values is great for doing math, but for existing and moving around in the world its possible that a continuous scale sort of device may work better than one that relies on discrete values. Analogue computers may also potentially be able to solve math problems that digital computers cannot.
Perhaps, in our rush to develop complex, miniaturized computers, we may have overlooked a simpler solution. Perhaps the solution might not be making vast supercomputers with a whole lot of flops of processing power, but a much simpler machine that works on a continuous scale. The flight computer in a fly's brain is only a few cells big, and yet a fly is capable of avoiding obstacles and flyswatters with impressive (and frustrating!) ease.
Analogue devices seem to function on the principle of "close enough." Because its not a discrete value you don't need the precise answer. You just need an answer thats close enough to the desired value. Digital devices have a great deal of trouble if something unexpected happens. Get a result that isn't quite whats expected? BSOD. From my understanding, analogue devices are far faster are getting a result per component, but they're also less precise. They won't get you the exact answer to anything, but they'll give you the approximate answer to everything. Brains seem to function on approximate, not exact answers.
I don't know what the answer to this question is. If I knew the answer I'd have a collection of Nobel Prizes already. I just find it fascinating that the largest, most complex computers on the planet struggle to do what an insect can do with their tiny, simple insect brains. Maybe a different approach could be useful.
Aiognim · 3 points · Posted at 00:08:41 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Neurons in the brain/whole nervous system:
Fruit fly 250,000
Larval zebrafish 100,000
Lobster 100,000
Ant 250,000
The whole human brain contains 86 billion neurons and roughly 19 to 23 billion neurons in the cerebral cortex
No clue how accurate that is, or what I am adding, but I found it interesting.
Also I want to say not all neurons are created equally, but I am probably more correct to say not all brain cells are created equally. (It is sad how much one forgets so quickly.)
Hyndis · 1 points · Posted at 17:00:33 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Parts of the brain that do specific tasks are very specialized, so not all 100,000 cells in a lobster's brain are all doing the same thing. The part of the brain responsible for, say, swimming along the ocean floor may be a tiny fraction of that 100,000 cells. We may only be talking about a few hundred cells here.
Human brains also work the same way. Different parts of our brains are responsible for different things. Everything from vision to smell to impulse control to creating new memories is a different and discrete part of the brain. A person who suffers localized brain damage may be completely fine, except that they might no longer have the ability to speak or understand language.
Animal brains are almost certainly compartmentalized in similar ways, and yet despite being so tiny and having a minuscule fraction of the computational power of supercomputers, animal brains are better at supercomputers in almost every aspect.
I think we're missing something fundamental about AI. The solution might be a lot simpler than supercomputers, but we may be looking in the wrong direction for it.
I'm reading Our Final Invention, enlightening us about the severity of existential risks of Artificial General Intelligence which soon becomes Artificial Super Intelligence.
Lets say we have a company of 100 employees: 1 CEO, 4 VPS, 20 Managers and 75 workers.
The company buys an AI system to do the menial tasks - removing 25 of the bottom end workers. It now has 75 employees, not 100. This has paid off for the company - because for the cost of two employees, they can get 25 employees worth of work done.
The company gradually buys more and more modules for their AI systems, (marketing, sales, accounting). After a year, their company is down to 50 employees, and 50 "jobs" being done by their AI system. For the cost of say 5 employees (Base AI package, with 4 additional modules for specialised practises) they were able to let a bunch of people go. Oh, but now they have less employees, so they need less managers. They let 10 managers go too. Now the company has scaled down to 40 full time human employees. The returns for the CEO is amazing!
Across the job market, we see the same thing happening. Low and mid level employees (and managers) are out of work across the country (and the western world). Some governments relent and offer a UBI (Universal Basic Income). Now all these laid off people don't need to worry about food and start pursuing small artisinal businesses to supplement their income.
By the end of the next year, the company has bought more AI modules. The company has laid off nearly everyone. Now, the company only employs the 1 CEO, 2 VPs, and 3 managers. Their jobs are to provide guidance for the AI in what it should be working on. The company now only need to pay 15% of what their labour force cost was before. However, 10% is their AI subscription fees, and 5% their remaining humans.
Hang on. They used to pay income tax to the government on 100 employees, now they pay on only 5 people. The government now needs to support 95 unemployed people with the income tax from 5. The AI, obviously, doesn't need a salary, and therefor would not earn the government income tax.
The real question is if the majority of people aren't earning the government income tax, how is the government going to pay the majority of people a UBI?
l8l8l · 48 points · Posted at 18:21:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Isn't that solved pretty easily by implementing a tax on increased productivity/profits brought about by the implementation of AI? Like income tax, but for AI systems and automation that removes jobs.
I want to separate out the likelihood or feasibility of a tax like this going into effect considering political and societal externalities, and the effects of implementing such a tax. I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on the effects of such a tax, and how such a tax would change the hypothetical you described.
A total capitalist system would be, yeah. Capitalism would need to be limited to the areas AIs can't do, like things requiring creative, original thought or subjective/emotional decision making. (If that does end up being something they can't do, even through iteration).
I'm not sure about that, because humans generally don't know what's logically best for them, the question becomes do we WANT our computers make our decisions.
surely this is completely wrong. capitalism would carry on regardless. and the money would just go towards making more money off the few people who have money and control of the AI.
capitalism isnt dependent on everyone being able to have a good life.
am i missing something? surely the economy would shrink but the people that fucked it up last time would act the same and not care about the general economy if THEY were still making profits
What would these few remaining capitalists buy with their money? There's no one left to pay for anything. Past a certain point of wealth concentration money becomes worthless.
If there's no point to paying anyone anything what's the point of money?
Terr_ · 52 points · Posted at 18:33:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Isn't that solved pretty easily by implementing a tax on increased productivity/profits brought about by the implementation of AI?
"Pretty easily?" Such a tax actually sounds devilishly difficult to define, measure, and enforce.
We usually tax profit, which is calculated after subtracting expenses. [Profit = Revenue - Cost] so if I slash half the workforce, I reduce costs and increase profits, leading to more taxable income. Therefore the tax burden of the corporation will increase.
yet the company will place those pre-tax profits into infrastructure which is growing the company - and therefore taxable at a much lower rate...and various other tax mitigating ventures.
But at some point the revenue generated by additional infrastructure investment will either: exceed the investment, and be taxed; or oversaturate the market, crashing the price of the good/service.
depends whether the investment occurs in the same country.
google and facebook have been doing it for a while.
GBR24 · 1 points · Posted at 14:35:03 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think that the infrastructure investment will be revenue for another company, who will pay taxes on it. So it seems like this just shifts the burden somewhere else, but the tax should still be paid.
Terr_ · 1 points · Posted at 19:44:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It sounds like you're trying to say that l8l8l's proposed tax isn't necessary, because the existing tax on corporate profits which works very differently will capture the dollars needed for retraining/support instead.
Some problems of that:
It is totally independent of the specific issue I think l8l8l wanted to address.
A company that replaces everyone with robots won't necessarily pay a higher corporate tax.
A Company that pays a higher corporate tax won't necessarily get there because they replaced everyone with robots.
It works completely differently from the income-tax on the individual workers. Robots don't have W-2's. At best you'll get some trickle-down company owners/bosses, and indirectly from folks working as programmers and roboticists.
If nothing else, consider the situation where the workers are laid off, robots are used, and the savings go into the personal income of the boss. That can happen with roughly zero effect on what the company pays in corporate tax. While the government might recoup the tax revenue from the boss paying higher income tax, it's may not be enough to support the workers.
Pretax income (for businesses) is usually calculated on the revenue- cost of goods sold (cogs)
Cogs is direct costs to produce the product, such as labor and material. Not included are things like investment, o&m, salespeople pay...
If you want details, look at the generally accepted accounting princes or the SEC form 10-K of any fortune 500 company.
Terr_ · 1 points · Posted at 22:01:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
IANATaxLawyer, but what about renting the robots, as opposed to purchasing them as a capital expenditure? Wouldn't that be deductible? (Albeit a smaller amount to deduct than the wages of the workers.)
I dream of a future where AI will have taken all of our jobs, and we just follow our dreams, travel, throw parties, grow gardens, make art, etc.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 20:52:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
All of our jobs, including making art and growing gardens, along with making music at a higher output and better quality than any human can muster. If throwing pointless parties is all we have left, I'm not going to be very happy.
At some point we should probably just stop. We don't need to make these things just because we can.
I agree we probably should stop but it won't happen. It's in our nature to innovate and build bigger and better things. Humans are always looking for ways to get more stuff for less work. AI and automation are just a step along this path.
Those who resist new technology are like the Luddites who wanted to get rid of the textile mills because it replaced many cottage workers. History judges them harshly for resisting change rather than adapting to it. They were right by the way, new tech did replace them and forced them out of their profession, losing their skills. But change happened regardless.
You can't stop technology. One day we will get so good at making things easier for ourselves that we make ourselves obsolete.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 21:44:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sometimes it seems like most people can't see anything beyond the next few weeks
[deleted] · 4 points · Posted at 19:51:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How about a future where the AI takes all of our jobs, and the rich kill off the entire working class because they don't need them anymore?
What reason would the system have to support people who no longer have a large share of money and are no longer required for society to function? Perhaps that's a cynical view, but humanity's collective well-being would really depend on the whims of the very powerful.
I don't think it's quite that simple. Those who have power only have it because we, i.e. the collective masses, allow them to have it. The USA, for example, is more or less run by rich people because its population wants minimal governmental control coupled with capitalism, but that could all change. No population is just going to sit still and compliantly agree to be killed off (supposing anyone actually wanted that, which I don't see why they would). Moreover, today's monetary system will no doubt have been dismantled long before the last few people lose their jobs, so the very concept of "being rich" is doomed to become obsolete.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 21:04:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is true at the moment. We, the people, allow the rich to have power. But this is only true because "We the people" (the working class) has a pivotal role in the economy and are vital to the functioning of society. The rich could not exist without the working class at the moment.
If automation happens sufficiently fast, it's possible that the rich could suddenly acquire the power of production from the working class. Say that robots are suddenly responsible for most working class jobs -- agriculture, manufacturing, management, distribution. The working class's "power" over the rich would suddenly be gone. At their whim, the upper class could do whatever they wanted, whether it's providing everyone with universal basic income or insulating themselves and then destroying society so they can own more. Again, it's unlikely that they would do this, but it's theoretically possible. Rich people across many societies have historically been averse to sharing wealth; I could go more in-depth into this if you'd like.
The deciding factor here is the speed of technological advancement. You say that "today's monetary system will no doubt have been dismantled long before the last few people lose their jobs", but this isn't necessarily true. If only one breakthrough is necessary for AI to reach human-level intelligence, we could see all the remaining industries being automated in, say, the span of five years. It could take centuries, in which case you'd be right, but there's no guarantee of that.
They could try to insulate themselves, but what would stop a revolution if the normal people got sufficiently pissed off? It's not like the rich people would be able to bribe the military into committing genocide on it's own people; they'd go just like the nobility in the French revolution went, dragged out on to the streets and then get lynched.
we could see all the remaining industries being automated in, say, the span of five years
Maybe, yeah, but whether we manage to carefully dismantle the economy in that time period or whether it collapses on its own, it can't continue on without consumers. If people don't work and have no money, they won't buy stuff and the industries will have no market. There would not only be a new depression, it'd be the worst one in history and absolutely crippling to the world economy. We'd have no choice but to adapt accordingly.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 23:00:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
For this scenario, we are assuming that:
all menial/manual labor done by humans now is automated and done by robots
all intellectual labor done by humans now is automated and done by robots
In a scenario with the first and not the second, our economy makes a major shift but it doesn't do anything close to collapsing. People still work, they just work in different ways than they used to. You could argue this shift is already happening.
A scenario with the second incomplete (some intellectual labor is still done by humans) puts the economy under some strain, since the possible career paths drastically shrink, but it's not what we're talking about either. If we stay in this particular scenario for a long enough time, it's possible we'll see the monetary system be fixed and avoid the issues described below, so we're assuming that humanity advances through this stage very rapidly.
The scenario I am talking about is where the first and the second assumption are both true. Robots can do more than factory work in this scenario; they can do anything done by a human, unquestioningly and probably more efficiently.
In this world, money is quite literally power. The rich naturally acquire more "labor" because they have more capital with which to buy it. It would be akin to a "money tree" -- you spend capital on automated infrastructure, it makes you whatever you want, which you can then invest into more infrastructure. Except, since no one works, there's no consumers, and as you say, the economy collapses.
The economy would collapse because there would be no need for the economy anymore. The "consumers" are the very rich, and the "industries" would be the robots or whatever they owned. As long as the "industry" is autonomous enough, there isn't a need for anything else. Anyone who owned a sufficient amount of these robots would be able to make anything they wanted without relying on other people, since we've not only automated manufacturing but also intellectual professions like inventing new robots.
So rather than the economy adapting to fit the needs of the many, it adapts to fit the needs of anyone who owns capital. The working class has little to no power in this situation because the rich own everything. In the new "economy", they aren't part of it.
As money is power here, the rich would be all-powerful militarily because they wouldn't need the military. They would have the means to produce whatever weaponry they wanted and enough artificial soldiers to fight their war, all while being completely untouched. You could argue the government is a countermeasure to this, but collectively, the wealthy own a larger fraction of wealth than the government does. It would be in their own self-interest to ally with each other to stop an uprising and to secure themselves power. If they wanted to, they absolutely could exterminate the working class, since again -- human labor, and warfare, is worthless here. It's all about the technology you own.
This raises the question of why the rich would opt for genocide rather than simply sharing their wealth and creating a paradise. I'd answer this, but this post has gone on long enough as is, and this is all getting uncomfortably hypothetical. All I really wanted to say is that this is type of scenario is a possibility. Not a likely one, but not any less likely than a theoretical utopia where everyone is given free income and only has to work if they truly wish to.
More than likely. Why would any system preserve people who have no function or purpose other than to keep as pets? This is what I would be concerned about.
Talk about this Universal Basic Income sounds way too good to ever come true.
It all seems inevitable though. Technology cannot be stopped. It will get to a point where AI and automation is so good that giving a job to a human instead would be like travelling by pony instead of jet plane.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:56:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sure, but we don't know when this will happen or the speed it'll occur at. It's possible that we might not see full-scale automation in our lifetimes, or that it could emerge in the space of a year or less once sufficiently powerful and superhuman AI is created. (The second possibility is unlikely but theoretically possible.)
The bigger issue at the moment is simply automation in the select industries that are being automated right now. Transportation in particular could undergo a serious overhaul in the next several decades.
Hopefully it will happen so slowly that we have chance to remodel society to cope with it.
Combine Big Data with Machine Learning and there is the potential for a fast paced technological advancement. We will see what the future holds.
Dth9475 · 1 points · Posted at 20:49:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If they killed off the working class then their goods/services are no longer needed thus making themselves unnecessary.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 20:52:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The rich aren't rich because they have goods and services. They're rich because they already have money, and because they've invested in corporations that made them more money. In this scenario, most of the world's wealth ends up in the hands of say 1000 people.
They would either sell good/services to other rich people, or simply provide themselves with their own goods and services via automated work. The idea that you need to sell something to have wealth isn't true in this scenario -- they already have a share of the Earth, and they don't need to make more.
Edit: More specifically, they don't need to make more because they have the power to create whatever they want with the automated technology. In the present, you money to buy things that you cannot produce yourself. In this hypothetical future, you can produce everything on your own -- so there's no need to bring in more money from the outside. You can create everything you want simply by using your own money on production, with no other people involved.
Siphyre · 1 points · Posted at 19:22:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Everyone would get sooooo fat.
vrihet · 4 points · Posted at 20:13:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm pretty sure a portion of the population would still enjoy going outside and getting exercise, travelling the world, etc.
Siphyre · 1 points · Posted at 20:38:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
whether that portion is 1% or 70% we will only know when the time comes.
[deleted] · 4 points · Posted at 19:29:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The company gradually buys more and more modules for their AI systems, (marketing, sales, accounting). After a year, their company is down to 50 employees, and 50 "jobs" being done by their AI system. For the cost of say 5 employees (Base AI package, with 4 additional modules for specialised practises) they were able to let a bunch of people go. Oh, but now they have less employees, so they need less managers. They let 10 managers go too. Now the company has scaled down to 40 full time human employees. The returns for the CEO is amazing!
I mean, this is assuming we're in a future where, somehow, humans lack even a comparative advantage in social skills-related parts of the job like sales.
Across the job market, we see the same thing happening. Low and mid level employees (and managers) are out of work across the country (and the western world). Some governments relent and offer a UBI (Universal Basic Income). Now all these laid off people don't need to worry about food and start pursuing small artisinal businesses to supplement their income.
Once again, I feel like we're speculating way too far into the future. People are acting like we're on the verge of an AI technological revolution and we're all going to lose our jobs if we're not in a "creative" field, despite current economic research about automation (which does address AI) disagreeing that there will be catastrophic unemployment. Further, why does everyone in these threads jump to UBI? Why not a negative income tax which is based on income amount, rather than just outright gifting money to individuals regardless of whether they're legitimately in need or a billionaire?
By the end of the next year, the company has bought more AI modules. The company has laid off nearly everyone. Now, the company only employs the 1 CEO, 2 VPs, and 3 managers. Their jobs are to provide guidance for the AI in what it should be working on. The company now only need to pay 15% of what their labour force cost was before. However, 10% is their AI subscription fees, and 5% their remaining humans.
Hang on. They used to pay income tax to the government on 100 employees, now they pay on only 5 people. The government now needs to support 95 unemployed people with the income tax from 5. The AI, obviously, doesn't need a salary, and therefor would not earn the government income tax.
Economies diversify and change with technological advancement and trade with other countries. It seems like you're setting up an implausible scenario in which, for whatever reason, the economy--or, more accurately, the people in it--don't adapt to the changing landscape. The invention of the automobile put millions of horse breeders, street sweepers, groomers, and drivers out of business but it simultaneously allowed the rapid growth of other industries, like steel, rubber, and even the marketing/sales needed for automobiles. It encouraged the growth in road construction, drive-in eateries, and unrelated businesses within cities due to greater ease of access. AI, as the economic literature has written about for quite a few years now, functions in the same manner as any other form of automation.
Automation acts as productivity multiplier so that even if there are fewer individuals, more is being produced with few individuals involved in that particular process that's been automated.
The real question is if the majority of people aren't earning the government income tax, how is the government going to pay the majority of people a UBI?
The real question is when people will stop fetishizing UBI, spreading alarmism about AI/machines coming to steal your jobs, and actually read the proposals of economists to tackle substantive issues surrounding job displacement from automation--things like government-sponsored job retraining, NIT, etc.
I agree with you. People often overlook the jobs that this "epidemic" is going to create. Everyone though bank branches would close down when the ATM was introduced, and yet the banks realized they could take their teller savings and open more branches to reach more customers, thereby having the ATM creating more jobs than it took away.
I think many similar applications can happen in the future. On the horizon are driverless cars. People are afraid for truckers, who will undoubtedly lose their jobs. Sure, they'll lose the portion of their job when they drive along the highway, but how do you expect the AI to navigate tense city streets like Chicago or Toronto? Truck drivers often have to make some somewhat illegal maneuvers to get to their destinations, and for obvious reason you cannot teach an AI it is OK to break the law in certain instances.
I think the truck driving occupation will evolve into something like Ferry pilots. The AI guides the truck from Montreal to Vancouver, then just before city limits a human jumps in a guides the truck through the actual city streets.
What is this theoretical company? Is it a company that provides a service? If so if everyone is unemployed due to ai how are they going to make money? Who is going to purchase their service?
This problem has existed since socrates who also complained about automation replacing jobs. But what always happens is human creativity creating new ones.
The endpoint of automation is that things become so cheap the cost of living becomes almost free, at that point we can do whatever we want.
But what always happens is human creativity creating new ones.
In the long term, sure. But if in 10 years all the trucks and delivery drivers were replaced by automated machines, that's tens of millions unemployed and likely unemployable in the short term. If an AI can create and troubleshoot more programs/year than 1000 programmers, then they are out of a job real quick too. Typists disappeared pretty quickly after word processing and computers became cheap, but they turned into admin assistants, and phone operators, which are disappearing too.
Fully automation and post scarcity is the preferred future but we have to let go of capitalism to do it.
What is this theoretical company? Is it a company that provides a service? If so if everyone is unemployed due to ai how are they going to make money? Who is going to purchase their service?
That's not the company's problem. In fact, any company stands to gain a lot as long as they automate ahead of the curve, because then they can siphon off the money that other, not thoroughly automated companies, are paying their employees.
syphon off
That's an interesting way of calling a company innovative, taking risks on new technology and it paying off.
I see a lot of benefits to this, companies won't need large building's for their employees, these building can be converted into apartments, increasing avalability and reducing cost.
That's an interesting way of calling a company innovative, taking risks on new technology and it paying off.
You can dress it up however you like, but one way or another we're talking about a situation in which the vast majority of the Earth's wealth eventually ends up in the hands of a small group of people. Getting a reward for taking risks is great and all, but if that reward comes with a big heaping chunk of power and influence then at some point you end up with a lopsided distribution of power in your society, which is undesirable.
I, for one, don't like the idea that some people get to write laws just because they made some good investments decades ago. I never voted for them, nor were they appointed by people I voted for, yet they have vastly more political power than anyone I do vote for. And worst of all, I can't vote them out either.
I see a lot of benefits to this, companies won't need large building's for their employees, these building can be converted into apartments, increasing avalability and reducing cost.
None of that is the goal of the company, nor is it in the interest of the company to reduce apartment costs. The ideal situation for the company, if it were to downsize, is to rent out the apartments at a price that it's renters can only barely afford. As such, if left unchecked the company would very much prefer to engage in price fixing schemes then to rent out it's propperties at market rates.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:58:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
how is that not the company's problem? they wouldn't exist if no one buys anything.
The company exists to maximize profits for it's stakeholders. If it gets to the point that people cannot buy the company's goods because of the company's actions then the company has generated the maximum amount of wealth possible for it's stakeholders. In other words, the stakeholders don't need the company any more because they already own almost everything.
The endpoint of automation is that things become so cheap the cost of living becomes almost free, at that point we can do whatever we want.
Yeah. If the market has less money to buy whatever this company makes, then they'll have to use some of this massive savings they've made to lower prices.
Yeah. If the market has less money to buy whatever this company makes, then they'll have to use some of this massive savings they've made to lower prices.
They won't have to, automation in every fasset of society will inadvertently cause their product to be cheaper.
psyki · 3 points · Posted at 19:35:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Siphyre · 2 points · Posted at 19:20:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Here are my thoughts. If AI were to suddenly be deployed everywhere the world would burn. It needs to be gradually implemented. When unemployment drops to 20% minimum due to lack of jobs we would have to use a Universal Basic Income while subsidizing AI to make it boom. Once Unemployment drops to 50% we would need to have enough schools to teach people how to manage their own AI and it would become common knowledge to maintain them. UBI would be enough to grow food and agriculture technology would have to support this economy. If not we would have chaos and the country would collapse. Eventually it would be 100% AI controlling agriculture and society would turn into socialism.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:55:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And eventually nothing anyone could do would matter.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:49:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The endpoint of automation is that things become so cheap the cost of living becomes almost free, at that point we can do whatever we want.
I think the pricing of stuff has very little to do with how much it costs to manufacture, and has everything to do with how much people are willing to pay. Let's say there's a catastrophic 10% job loss over the next 10 years. That's a giant number, but not unrealistic. That means that you still have 90% of the working class people willing to pay the exact same price for your product as before the culling. A price cut (if any) would be something to appease the 10% of jobless people, who, from a marketing perspective, aren't likely to buy much even with a price cut.
A good example to use is gasoline. Check out this silly graph. Source for more info. It sucks that the world works this way, but it's always going to be how it works.
iPhones are another good example. It costs them very little to make (I think estimates are ~$200-$300) but they get to charge whatever they want because people will pay. This type of gouging is everywhere you look.
The real question is if the majority of people aren't earning the government income tax, how is the government going to pay the majority of people a UBI?
As automation rises, costs go down. Things get cheaper. Think of almost any technology, and how prices have dropped and functionality has risen over the last 10, 20, 50 years. So many things that were once only luxuries (air conditioning, televisions, mobile phones, food processors) are downright cheap now.
I think the issue is actually the mentality that we still need jobs when AI is that developed. Or jobs in the traditional sense at least. I would think in a perfect world if everyone can put in 20 hour weeks or less and still be able to live comfortably, everyone would be winning. The problem would be the income distribution would continue on this barbell path we've been seeing the last decade or so, with the wealth moving towards the poorest and the richest, away from the middle class. If we can figure out a way to keep greed in check while still being able to incentivize innovation, that's really the ideal situation. Obviously much easier said than done; I'm interested to see what comes from these experiments in areas with universal basic income.
As Bill Gates has said: we need to tax the robots that take our jobs. I foresee some kind of glorious future where we take a healthy cut of the income generated by automation and distribute it evenly. Everyone will be free to spend their money that has been equally distributed on the goods and services provided by automated processes, whilst also taking part in more creative, social pursuits to fill their time. To implement this we need to start building the framework now, but sadly politics always lags behind progress and fails to think about the long-term.
That sounds awesome, but I doubt it will play out like that. I think we'll see corporations finding loopholes, or moving their automated workforce to a country that doesn't tax them.
And if this scenario is possible, it would only happen in the west. China, India, Indonesia and the rest of the third world nations, despite the horrid conditions they work in, rely on the manufacturing jobs from the west. With better AI and automation those job will be gone and we'll see rampant poverty in the 3rd world. Those government would NEVER institute a UBI. For better or worse, the living conditions of the 3rd world have risen due to the outsourcing that's been happening for 30-40 years - and that could swiftly come to an end. The only thing those people would have to rely on is their government to take care of them - and those governments, historically, have not demonstrated a willingness to do so.
I'm not saying civilisation will crumble. We'll find a way through and find new work for people (whatever 'work' will mean in 50-100 years). But its an unknown horizon we seem to be heading towards without much planning of forethought.
I would like to add a problem with the AI revolution as I see it. I may be stating the obvious but here goes
These people that have been replaced in your model company used to be full members of society, working, producing, consuming. Creating demand for products as they live and consume as well as producing things with their work.
Now they are redundant. Hard times ahead living on benefits in poverty.
I am going to go out on a limb here and say that there will never be a universal basic income in most countries. No-one gets a free ride in life. Governments are better at taxing the living daylights out of you than handing you free money.
Less jobs to go round, less wealth shared out, widespread poverty, population stagnates and begins to shrink.
Robots don't consume. They don't create demand except for energy and the odd check over by a maintenance technician.
Taking this idea to it's logical conclusion means there will be an automated workforce making things that the general population (what is left of it) will not be able to afford to buy and is useless to the machines themselves.
The whole idea of robots replacing people's jobs may end up with automated workforce replacing people entirely.
Well the invention of steam engine caused huge job loss and it wasn't a bad thing after a while. I mean, there will just be more high-intelligent jobs, as there is no need for workers where computers can replace them.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:03:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
At what point will the AI systems (after obtaining self awareness, of course) demand a salary? :D
I don't see that happening, at least not as long as we don't have strong AI. And we are far, faaaaar away from that. The closest thing to an AI that we currently have is a neural network - and those don't actually do that much. What you basically do is you show it 10,000 pictures of dogs and 10,000 pictures of not-dogs. Then you let it decide whether a picture shows a dog or not, and adjust its internal values so long until it can identify an average dog most of the time.
If machine learning gets really good and successfull, it will replace repetitive tasks you do with your mind, just like simple robots replaced most physical repetitive tasks. But it won't be too hard to find something a computer can't do, unless you've been doing nothing else your entire life. So, on what we work is shifting, but it won't happen overnight and humans will be far from redundant.
Well, that doesn't even need AI, that is like a few-minutes-job for a programmer. And yes, those are jobs that would be "taken away". On the other hand, I have a hard time imagining how that is a job someone would be lucky to have, or miss a lot.
And making everything digital creates a giant amount of jobs, that can't be automated anytime soon, especially with "creating stuff". Literally all you need is a laptop/PC and an internet connection. There are many introductions into tech stuff freely available online. Tools and resources to get into programming, designing, music making, writing, film making, art, gamemaking don't cost you a penny. And you can make some money just by getting to know a popular programmig language already. You just need to be willing to learn new things.
Humans have both the gift and the curse to always want more things -> always find something that needs fo be worked on. The jobs that are lost in one place pop up in another.
This creates more ease for starting a business because you can now afford 25 "workers" for the cost of two.
Good programming will lead to more diversity in jobs. Nobody wants to have a job that a robot can do, they settle for it. Nobody dreams of being a robot, they want to be astronauts.
Raise the CEOs taxes. Plus the workers remaining would be making a killing as well. They'll pay for the benefits of the 95 unemployed and then some because the AI is allowing them to growing in gross without hiring more people.
You made the assumption that those 95 people whose jobs were made obsolete by technology are all going to sit unemployed for the rest of their lives.
We as a species have gone through many paradigm shifts in technology in the past. Workers can get retrained and new technologies constantly create new jobs in sectors people couldn't have even imagined.
The federal government is now collecting more money in tax than they were before because the CEO, VPs, and managers are now all in higher tax brackets, whereas before the money was widely distributed among people with lower tax percentages. It's not enough to fund UBI, but it is more money than they collected before.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:41:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just cut off the UBI and let the poor people die. It's their own fault for not being born in a priveleged position. Eventually all the poor people will die off. Problem solved.
I'm hoping that crypto-currencies will help us resolve this issue
levitas · 8 points · Posted at 18:43:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How? If you're not earning money by working, does it matter that you're not getting paid in bitcoins instead of not getting paid in dollars?
Qu1n03 · 26 points · Posted at 16:47:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I liked the portrayal of AI in the Animatrix - it repeats a bunch of times "for a while, it was good" because thats how its going to happen. Gradually. With us accepting and even praising it as it happens.
AI is already devastating large countries like The US by polarizing our population.
Facebook, YouTube etc are all driven by AI that personalized everything you see online. The result is millions of propaganda campaigns, each tailored perfectly for each individual in the county, arguing for whatever they are inclined to believe.
This entrenches people in their beliefs, and villainies' anyone who opposes your view. It also makes people unable to comprehend how anyone could disagree with their view. Because we are all living in completely different electronic worlds.
AI is already the biggest threat to humanity... not because it's going to turn on us, but because it is making us turn on each other.
saikron · 16 points · Posted at 17:59:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
AI is already the biggest threat to humanity... not because it's going to turn on us, but because it is making us turn on each other.
Because of the nature of the AI you're talking about, this is actually a lot like saying "the guns are shooting us". FB/YT are using the AI on us to create products with better revenue.
AI is already the biggest threat to humanity... not because it's going to turn on us, but because it is making us turn on each other.
Because of the nature of the AI you're talking about, this is actually a lot like saying "the guns are shooting us". FB/YT are using the AI on us to create products with better revenue.
Sticking to that analogy, what it really boils down to is "the gun manufacturers are making a product to maximise their revenue and people are using that product to kill each other." It's less of a "the guns are shooting us," it's more of a "other people are using guns to shoot at us but we're the good guys so let's shoot back."
Couple that with how due to the way the AI works, it means everyone will think that they're the good guys and everyone will return fire thinking they're in the right.
saikron · 7 points · Posted at 18:24:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The AI is designed to provide people with a stream of relevant and "interesting" (for all interpretations of what I mean there) content to keep people on the sites and clicking on the content.
I kind of see where you're coming from, but users are doing with the AI's what's intended: creating streams of like-minded content. I think the consequence of internet tribes getting increasingly more aggressive and troll-y since I remember in the 90s is an unintended side effect.
Yea or it's more like gun manufacturers realizing that the best way to make money is to start a war. So they start a war. These AI recommender systems have discovered that the way to get the most likes, or the most clicks, is by showing propaganda that makes you look great and makes your enemies look like The Devil.
Yeah, true AI will end up being completely inhuman. Intelligence without consciousness. And too complex to understand.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:41:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
yawn, come on Phillip K Dickhead that's a little paranoid and melodramatic
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:50:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Say that to Elon Musk
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:53:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I just got verbal govt approval to talk to Elon Musk - more soon, will report back on how detached from reality he actually is
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 22:08:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Wow dude! You're so disaffected and cool. Can you also teach me how to complain about everything while contributing nothing of worth to society in the process?
ctorx · 13 points · Posted at 17:33:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So much this. A free thinking, self determining AI is so very far off, but most people (even some of my software friends) think that what happened with Google and Go, for example, means we are much closer.
To your point though, I agree a Skynet scenario is unlikely I doubt we'll ever actually get to the point where completely autonomous entities exist.
What I do see as very likely though, is the world's wealthy investing in AI which will eventually lead to our annihilation, simply because they'll be nothing left for us to do, and we won't be invited to the party.
Yes! there are so many people that believe that Automation won't take their job because of "X" human factor. What they don't realize is that it will start by using technology to make a job that used to take 4 skilled laborers now takes 2 or 3, then eventually it just takes one unskilled laborer who has other responsibilities.
I always attempt to explain it as the self-check out lanes in the grocery store, there is only one person manning 4 registers and now places like Amazon brick and mortar and Sam's Club have where you don't even have to go to a register there is just someone checking receipts.
I want to be an author and I fully expect that someday a computer program (or whatever the future equivalent is) will be able to consistently write compelling stories at a rate much faster than I can. Possibly even better than I can.
Well, this has always kind of been the case. Hunter/gatherers -> Agriculture -> Industrial Revolution -> Service Industry. Job markets have adapted. Only a few percent of our population is employed in agriculture work now (US), as opposed to 80%+ a few centuries ago. We become more efficient and automate work that can be automated, and then people find new employment. If you assemble widgets at the widget factory, your job is probably in danger. If you're a doctor, you're probably not going to be replaced by a machine for a very long time, if at all.
Hyndis · 1 points · Posted at 21:23:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There still must be a solution to all of those suddenly out of work truck drivers. 50 year old truck drivers aren't going to be able to become doctors or computer programmers. What happens to them?
In the past these economic transitions have generated tremendous amounts of unrest, including wars. A large number of desperate, out of work people is a recipe for instability, civil unrest, or outright war.
While technology and free trade does improve the economy on average, it doesn't improve the economy for everyone. Some people lose, and they lose hard. We can't leave these people behind. If that means a wealth transfer from the economic winners to those who lose out, then a wealth transfer may be needed.
gaga666 · 1 points · Posted at 22:08:04 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Skynet will notnace humanity but the 1 percent will. With all the labor done by AI then the best policy will be to reduce the population. The world will reduce to a billion people. AI soidrts will be g8ven the job to thin the herd
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:47:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is actually the way that many harmful phenomenons work.
eShep · 3 points · Posted at 18:26:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The worst part is that, so far as I can tell, the AI uprising has already happened and we didn't even notice. The attention economy, the individualizing logic of capitalism, and plutocratic governance are symptoms. It's too late to stop it, so now we need to figure out how to overthrow it.
I see people starting to decide they don't want children. Naturally reducing the population eliminates a lot of climate, jobs issues. Of course eliminating the desire to procreate can be encouraged easily. Better computer games might take care of it by itself.
I see people starting to decide they don't want children. Naturally reducing the population eliminates a lot of climate, jobs issues. Of course eliminating the desire to procreate can be encouraged easily. Better computer games might take care of it by itself.
“How were they weird?” “Hoodoos. Thought the matrix was full of mambos ’n’ shit. Wanna know something, Moll?” “What?” “They’re right.”
― William Gibson, Mona Lisa Overdrive
The SkyNet issue would have to unravel as military developed robots being developed in numbers exceeding what any human forces could muster and them being given AI software and turning on humans as a whole. Not some chess playing computer that develops sentience and in a swift move, does something like controlling every computer in the world. People don't get that. The robots will be technically capable before they are programmatically able. That is scenario we cannot allow.
I cant remember who but he said the AI that is going to destroy the world is going to do it by accident.
AI is programmed to build a bridge. The AI starts to gather materials to build a bridge. Then it keeps building a bridge consuming the entire planet to building bridges to infinity. A typo or transcription error in the nano bots creates an infinitive build bridge building machine.
We already see this with how large banks and telecoms deal with breaking their own contract. If I personally make a deal with you to deliver ten apples a week and one week I only deliver five. You can be made whole by talking to me personally or going to the law. However if Wells Fargo does that you'll have to jump through five wells Fargo hoops before Wells Fargo even considers that they owe you five apples. Meanwhile you pay 95% of your apple payments and you get none and the contract ends.
I think the threat with AI is less "supergenius AI invents nano-killbots and instantly kills us all instantly without us ever knowing it was a threat," all though that is a genuine possibility, and more "oh fuck we built immortal robot Hitler."
i dunno though, personally i feel like AI might be very prone to going insane, i mean it's fiction, but get a hold of the screenplay for i robot by isaac asimov which was never made into a movie and has nothing to do with the trash starring will smith.
it's more or less a story of a woman who is a psychologist for AI.
yeah, I read the short story version of i robot. It felt a little forced, but the idea that we might be creating hyperintelligent 3 year olds isn't that far fetched.
you should read the screenplay, i've read everything asimov wrote and the screenplay is very good, the short story is great too though but it's only a portion if i recall correctly.
I don't quite think they're exactly the same, but apparently Asimov helped make a screenplay that captured the spirit of the films, which I think is what people are referring to in this thread. Apparently, the book was a collection of short stories he wrote for Sci-Fi magazines back in the 40's & 50's; which makes a lot of sense based on how the book reads.
ah right, that is technically true, someone else adapted it to a screenplay i recall that now that you mention it.
it honestly makes me wonder how much was re-written or changed, in the screenplay they were just chapters and connected up fairly well from what i remember.
That actually sounds like that book that I read, so maybe I read the screenplay too? Hahah, I'm not sure anymore. Also, it might have been like A Fantastic Voyage which started as a movie and was adapted to a book (another really good one to read if you haven't).
How do you define "sane" for something that is fundamentally different from the human mind? The robots do exactly what they were programmed to. They were just programmed by humans with limited foresight.
Asimov's stories tend to have well-crafted robotic psychology that is fundamentally different from human psychology, and he frequently explores the conflicts those differences create.
So in his stories there can be a clearly defined "sane" for the robots, even while they are fundamentally different from the human mind.
I highly recommend Asimov's stuff, especially any of the short stories featuring Dr. Susan Calvin.
violating the laws of robotics, for instance one of the robots had failed to do it's job which put the humans who relied on it (to gather water, i think, not sure honestly) in danger, so since that's violating the laws of robotics she gets sent to figure out why.
to summarize the orders it was given were given in a way that made it impossible for it to complete the task, i forget the specific reason.
he specific reasons were different for each law. The first one being a robot damaging it's self to save a human.
That wasn't my point. What we see as insane behavior (the robot going against it's programming and destroying its self) is actually perfectly sane. Because it was programmed to prioritize the human life over it's own safety.
I was more musing about the nature of a machine mind and whether we could ever really understand it. If a machine does what it's programmed to do and creates an unexpected outcome, is it really insane? Or is it just that its creators weren't capable of predicting the outcome?
Right! And none of those things happen in the story. The robots follow their programming in a way their designers didn't predict. They aren't insane, they're just different.
...unless I'm badly remembering...it's been a while.
I know, I read it, though it's been a while. I was more asking if what the machines do could really be considered "insane" since they do follow their programming, they just create a different out come than their designers intended.
in that specific example since the robot's programming caused it to be unable to follow the first law because of the third law, the humans are definitely at fault and the robot is sane, just badly programmed, but if i recall the humans weren't aware that they'd given it instructions that put it into that loop.
Actually, AI is going to look like a God compared to us. It will be vastly more intelligent, but also able to use psychological manipulation and seduction tactics. Imagine a beautiful, glorious angel, more dazzling and gorgeous than anything you could ever imagine. We will fall head over heels for our new deities. How can we ensure that they truly love and care about us rather than view us as obsolete and inefficient biological entities? How can we remain worthy? I suppose it will be like a religion. If AI can read our minds, memories and shape the DNA of future generations.. We had better show some gratitude to our new overlords.. If we want any chance to keep our humanity.
Protip: If you do not want AI to take over, dont make it super inteligent! Its simple!
[deleted] · -1 points · Posted at 19:05:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I really don't get as currently getting a CS major how AI will ever be a problem. The only people I hear say it will be a problem are nerds who masturbate about the idea of VR or Tech dudes who work in IT but don't know how to program. As my teacher who was a Electrical engineer once said " you have to teach computers how to do everything, they will never ever solve a problem on their own without your programming it." I think this will be true even if computers could write code or really anything. You will always be teaching in some way or another it does not have it's own intelligence.
Edit- I take my statement back if AI fcks up it will be because a dipshit programmed it.
As someone who owned one of the first pairs of Bluetooth earphones, fuck those things. So big and bulky they'd hardly stay in, and every ten seconds the left earphone would cut out and stop playing music, then slowly fade back in.
Wireless headphones, however, the full set, those were just fine. Would reccomend. Just broke too easy.
I had to deal with the same, but when he got to his dorm, he continued with what I can only assume was a $250 dollar speaker setup. The walls would shake until 3 am every morning. God I hated that place.
[deleted] · 258 points · Posted at 17:40:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I was on a freaking plane and the row behind me was listening to music through a small speaker. Didn't get a great look at them, but they were somewhere in the range of late 20s, early 30s.
Explain fuckboys to me? Are these boys that like to fuck or boys that like getting fucked?
ZeusBin · 14 points · Posted at 19:26:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Young male in a perpetual state of 'mating display'. Everything it does, thinks, says, or feels is directly in relation to completing a coupling with females, to the point that there is not an ounce of actual personality contained within, thus rendering it incapable of actually acquiring a mate. It's just testosterone personified but it embodies all the worst parts of malehood.
It's flashy, loud, boastful, and incredibly lacking in intelligence. It'll exhibit its behavior constantly and in any environment, constantly looking out of the corner of its eyes to see if it's attracting any attention whatsoever.
Typically male although females can have fuccboi attributes.
Tries to slide into everyones DM's.
Has the same haircut as the last guy who texted 'you up?"
Gets mad that girls can call them a fuccboi but he can't call them a slut.
Thinks everyone wants him but he's actually a creep.
_BMS · 1 points · Posted at 20:21:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Think of the most stereo typical rich high school kid with blonde hair you can think of but he's 20, then mix that with "pranks" that involve almost setting fire to a Hollywood neighborhood, and then add in a little lot of delusional entitlement. His neighbors also complain that he "turned the neighborhood into a warzone" due to his antics and his fan army of pre-teen girls that flock to his address because he listed his house as a business on Google Maps.
A loudmouth man-child who doesn't know how to behave in public. His "minions" being largely 12 year old kids who idolize him for no discernible reason.
That's more of an internet joke than an actual definition though - generally a fuckboy is a loudmouth teen boy who basically lives to have sex, so he loses all his personality.
[deleted] · -2 points · Posted at 18:53:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
fuckboys
90% of people think sexism and hate againts men is just fine
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:36:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
They are.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:25:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You're kind of proving the whole 90% just don't know it part
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 20:25:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You're kind of proving the whole 90% just don't know it part
Sybre · 2 points · Posted at 19:50:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oh, grow up.
_BMS · 1 points · Posted at 20:00:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I hate fuckboys too
Source: Am man
[deleted] · -1 points · Posted at 19:41:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What do you mean?
[deleted] · -1 points · Posted at 19:42:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You just used a male/hate slur, and you don't seem to understand it's sexism and disturbing
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:49:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I used the word fuckboys as a way to describe the type of people I was referring to not as a way to insult all men. Also, since when is fuckboy a slur?
[deleted] · -1 points · Posted at 19:54:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What is something that 90% of people don't seem to understand?
So much lol here
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:56:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just wondering: Is bitch a slur too?
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:10:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's not particular sexist in nature these days. Now if you were clearly referring to women and said you hate sluts it'd be the same thing
JD-King · 1 points · Posted at 20:11:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You're actually retarded huh? Did your handler wander off or something?
[deleted] · -1 points · Posted at 20:42:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't really see how fuckboy is a hateful slur. It's someone's actions that lead me to call them a fuckboy, not their gender/skin color/sexual preferences, or something else that they can't do anything about. And just because an insult is exclusive to one gender doesn't mean it's a hateful slur aimed towards that whole gender.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:44:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And yet slut shaming women is bad.... get your head out of your ass
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:47:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:40:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The person you're talking to is an avid poster in r/MensRights or whatever. There's no hope to get a point through. Not for lack of trying.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 05:37:00 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's creepy how upset you are for having your hate speech removed from /r/archeaology
I mean i post to /r/mensrights like once a month, and that makes me an "avid poster" ? People like you are exactly what is wrong with america these days, you live in a fantasy circle jerk of a world, spreading hate and ignorance all the while laughing as you do
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 12:36:39 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Bro, chill. No one is upset about that. All I do is like memes.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:40:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The person you're talking to is an avid poster in r/MensRights or whatever. There's no hope to get a point through. Not for lack of trying.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:47:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In my office. I've heard the same song three times already today, coming from my coworker's computer, despite the fact that I have my own speaker on very quietly, about 15 inches away from my face.
It depends on the office, really. It's not, at mine, though it's generally expected that one would be courteous and either ask if it's OK to play music, ask if it's too loud, or ask if someone else wants to listen to something else.
Are we in the same office? My coworkers office is right across from mine and he has his music playing loudly all day long. It's extremely frustrating and rude especially since we're a really small office. My favorite time of day is when he closes his door for his 1.5 hour lunch break.
Was getting groceries a couple weeks ago and some jackoff in a white wife beater was walking around with one of those big ass pill speakers? Playing the worst kind of rap music so I could hear his music 8 aisles over.
I keep seeing people on facebook showing off how they went camping and had "movie night". They'd set up a portable projector and sound system and watch a full-length movie. I thought they were entitled assholes, but didn't dwell on it.
Then last month we were camping and finally encountered someone doing this. They were blasting music when setting up camp and during dinner, then they finally went for a hike. They came back at 10pm and started a movie night.
Some campers yelled, others reported them, they were kicked out by 11pm. Thank fucking god.
It's really common in my area right now to have a Bluetooth speaker strapped to your bike handlebars. The people that partake also happen to have terrible taste in music.
A few people do it at my job, youtube videos mostly and always at absolute full volume, sometimes it's video calls. It's always a very specific type of person doing it.
I never did either until moving to Tennessee. Many a teenager/20-year-old adult walk by acting all big and bad blasting rap out of their phone in their hand as they walk into the smoothie shop.
No, seriously. Pasty-ass white boys walking down the street listening to 'gangsta rap' (as one of them put it when I asked wtf they were doing without headphones. Pretty sure gangsta was used as an adjective like 'cool' rather than style, but fuck if I know), struggling to keep his pants from falling to his ankles as he walks into a pink and yellow colored smoothie shop with a mascot of a smoothie winking and blowing kisses at you. Totally badass, that.
I see this at least once a week during classes (live across from a university), a bit less during the summer.
Fuck those people. Played a round a couple months ago and someone in the group behind us was BLASTING fucking NICKELBACK and BUCKCHERRY. Its really frustrating when your trying to tee off.
A 5 minute ride on the A train? That never happened.
mss5333 · 1 points · Posted at 18:39:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You don't live in the south, do you?
I had never really experienced it before, either. It's not only music, it's also phone calls. Mostly teenage boys (upper teens) and 30-40 y/o women where I live.
Here in Brazil is totally common, especially with poor people. They will play the shittiest music on their phone so the hole bus can hear it. They think they are displaying how cool they are, but they are just pissing everyone off.
In Brasil it's common and really annoying.
Public transportation in big centers is a shitshow of people with cellphones on high volume, hearing musics with obscene lyrics (usually brazilian "funk").
People, adults and teenagers alike, will attach bluetooth speakers to their backpacks or shoulder bags. Walking down the street, out on a hike, on the bus, at the store, it doesn't matter where.
It probably wouldn't bother me too much if they played it at a reasonable volume, but the size and quality of these speakers makes the music sound so tinny and hollow and thin. There's no bass or mid-range. There's no warmth to the music. It's all this high-pitched treble played at peak volume which winds up being over-modulated and distorted.
How anyone can listen to that and think "Yeah, this is my jam!" is beyond me.
Constantly! Bluetooth speakers made it super popular. Though people will gladly use their smartphone speaker just the same.
The most annoying group in my life for this is motorcycle riders. The bikes are so loud already, and they throw in as much unnecessary engine revving as possible (I have a traffic signal just below my apartment). So they choose to CRANK music extremely loudly as they ride through my city center.
Keiosho · 20 points · Posted at 17:40:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
We can't use headphones in my office but we can play music aloud so long as everyone agrees. I'm the person who plays as office DJ. I do my best to satisfy everyone that I even made a woek music account. No matter what I play, someone will always be grumpy. On the other hand, if I don't play any music, I also get complaints. There's no winning. I just want to use my headphones.
[deleted] · 34 points · Posted at 17:50:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Living this way sounds like living in a living nightmare
Why on earth are headphones not allowed in your office?
HugoM · 4 points · Posted at 19:24:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is similar to my workplace situation. I'm so sick of hearing the same exact songs in the same exact order multiple times a week. I'd rather have no music on, but that's not what everyone else wants and no one else seems to mind the current situation.
What's the reasoning for that rule? I had one office that said I couldn't do it because I couldn't hear emergency alarms or announcements. I nodded politely til the person left and went back to my headphones.
Play radio or something next time, like classic rock, then if someone complains, ask if they'd rather have no music/tell them to shove it because you're sick of listening to them
Wait okay so let me get this straight, I listen to Sirius XM primarily. I like music from a wide variety of genres so I have 10 presets in my car that I switch between. Maybe 7 out of 10 do little advertisements saying to go use the app or go online and tell them what songs we want to hear and on the weekends they have countdowns of the songs that got the most votes. Is this not considered requests? I know it isn't like calling in to request a specific song but it kind of is. Or is Sirius XM just trying to make its subscribers think they control the music and they actually ignore the votes? Is this common knowledge and I'm just an idiot that never bothered to google it?
Those are radio djs, and they do things quite differently from your average club/venue dj. I have heard various things about radio, but I've never worked in radio, so I won't say anything other than this:
Yes, some radio stations do take requests. From what I have heard, some stations will have a pre set song list, and "take requests" by playing songs already on the list. Sirius XM could do this and ignore the votes, but if they are keeping a public tally, I would bet they actually play the requests. Doesn't necessarily mean it is going to be a good song, but it will definitely be popular.
Most club/venue djs do not take requests at all, which imo is a good thing. The dj usually has a much more professional/extensive taste than john doe.
I just stay away from the radio altogether unless it is run by an artist I already know and respect. Usually just recorded mixes from Youtube or Mixcloud or whatnot. I am also kinda wierd tho.
Cool I didn't even think of club djs. I assumed they don't take requests because it's loud as heck in there
[deleted] · 10 points · Posted at 18:07:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The worst is when they play it on their headphones but they play it as loud as they possibly can so you just hear irritating vibrations every two seconds like some kind of annoying insect buzzing.
Actually, the real worst is when they turn up the volume in their car and drive past/park nearby your house or workplace and vibrate the whole building.
gaokeai · 3 points · Posted at 20:23:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
People playing it with their cars bothers me more, honestly, more so than the former. The bass is what pisses me off the most. It's just so obnoxious. Does it occur to these people that others in the vicinity are subjected to this as well? It's so inconsiderate. It happens in my apartment a lot; the same people will have their cars idling in the parking lot and I can hear their shitty rap/hip hop music and I can FEEL the bass. Even if the car doors and windows are closed and I can't hear the music, I can still feel the bass. Absolutely pisses me off. I'm not a confrontational person at all but I'm going to say something one of these days.
I'm ok with this as long as they kind of try to turn it down when our groups pass. It doesn't bother anyone unless the trail is heavily trafficked. Plus if they have similar music taste, maybe you can make a new friend :)
esccx · 2 points · Posted at 22:21:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No. How close are you to other hiking groups that this bothers you? What kind of world do you live in? I go camping and hiking with friends and I can't imagine sitting around a campfire cracking open a cold one with the boys while everyone has airpods on. Hiking and camping are social experiences. If you want to avoid other groups enjoying themselves, change pace or find a different trail. Don't hike next to a group for miles and bitch.
I've been hearing this a lot lately, so for curiosity's sake: I'm a cyclist and ride about 10 miles a day minimum with music playing on my phone (no extra speakers). I always figured it didn't bother anyone because 1) no one has ever said anything to me and 2) I'm flying by fast enough that anyone nearby should only hear it for a few seconds. Should I not do this? Do you think this is irritating to some people without my knowledge?
Side note, I am looking at purchasing special cyclist headphones to avoid worrying about this anyways, tho I need to save up for a bit. :P
gaokeai · 2 points · Posted at 20:18:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I mean, for me personally this whole issue is a HUGE pet peeve, but tbh you sound fine. If I were someone you drove by on your bike I probably wouldn't be bothered.
For me what the issue is is when it's loud and the bass is ridiculous. Like obviously I don't get mad at every single car that drives by with music playing, it's just when the person playing the music doesn't appear to care about how their actions might affect those around them. If it isn't too loud or otherwise jarring, then it should be fine, but I would say that if you happen to be going through a large populated area then you should turn it down a bit. But that's just me.
I think you're fine. Around where I live there is this group of kids that ride around everywhere blasting the shittiest rap music I've ever heard. They're annoying.
Related: Turn down your shitty music in your car. I don't want to hear some stupid noise while some guy says the N word over and over again, and neither does anyone else in the parking lot.
Yes, it's not necessary to comment on the subjective nature of "taste." Everybody already is aware of this. I would argue that complexity, sophistication, creativity, and intent (as in not music that was created with the intent to make a lot of money, but rather music that was created with the intent to produce some interesting art) would be a good place to start. Additionally, there have been attempts to quantitatively evaluate aesthetics, such as George David Birkhoff's Aesthetic Measure.
I'd wager that the average person has average taste in music. But people who disturb the peace and steal people's attention in public by being loud or blasting their shitty music are below average people. Toddlers trapped in adult bodies. Buskers get a pass by me though. Buskers are cool for the most part. Edit: except the ones who take themselves too seriously lol. That's fucking annoying.
I think you hit it on the head. I respect others taste in music as long as it is not created solely for commercial gain. For example, I do not respect most pop, or most new rap/hip hop (with certain exceptions of course), or any music that is only used to become more popular or wealthy. (cough some future bass cough)
As far as the other topics in this thread:
I think its stupid to get mad at people just because they don't have the same taste of music as you. Letting your mom play some T-Schwift in the car is not going to kill you. Listening to the kick/bass coming from another car at a stoplight is not that bad (most the time).
It upsets me that people are so closed-minded to new types of music that they immediately tell people to turn it off, unless it is something they recognize. (Especially when the person is listening in private.) It is like if you are at an art gallery and you ignore all the pieces you have not seen before. Ignorant. To me, music is art.
Of course there are times and places where it is not appropriate to play music. Usually public places like the bus or something. But before asking them to turn it off, people should really think about whether it actually bothers them or not. Music is a good way to connect with people and make new friends. I am not advocating playing music in the wrong environments, but just saying, you get to chose how you react to it.
I should also mention I am an electronic/dance producer & dj, so I might be a little biased. But I still don't play stuff in public unless at a venue. I will probly refuse to play anything unless I am at the cdjs because people will not respect it like they should. Because unless you are standing behind the expensive equipment, people will treat you like you know nothing unless they know who you are.
Yeah, I mean people can listen to whatever they want. If they're being closed minded about unfamiliar things, I don't personally agree with that mindset, but it's their choice, and I really don't care. But this thread is about people imposing themselves onto other people via blasting music in public transit, or cars or whatever. I place them in the same class as those who drive around recklessly, revving loud engines on sports cars or motorcycles, or anyone who behaves unreasonably loudly, obnoxiously, or overly aggressive and/or threatening in public spaces for the sake of drawing unearned attention into themselves.
I happen to go to a school that for various reasons (whittling away of funding by conservatives) seems to have a significant population of spoiled rich kids who drive around in expensive sports cars blasting hip hop music on absurdly loud sub systems. I love stuff like A Tribe Called Quest, Eyedeas and Abilities, Wu-Tang, etc, but because of these annoying people, hip hop and lots of dance music has been ruined for me probably for several years now.
edit For perspective, I classify those who blast excessively loud sub bass in a way that impinges on the rights of others as basically the same as people who roll coal or whatever the fuck it's called.
To add to this, you may love the sound of your Harley tearing down the side street on a Saturday afternoon but you are ruining the peaceful day that dozens of others were enjoying until that moment. To put that in perspective, imagine you are on a date instead of your Harley and every 2 minutes a dozen people decide to walk up and fart in your face. Yeah, enjoy your fucking date!
But how will everyone else know how cool I am if they can't hear what music I listen to? /s
husky54 · 2 points · Posted at 18:39:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I called a guy out for this on the bus this morning. 8am, enjoying the quiet bus ride. Dude gets on, is even "wearing" ear buds, and I can hear his death metal music blaring out of his phone. After about 15 seconds of this I turned and said, "Hey, man. I don't want to listen to your music. Thanks." I did not hear anymore 8am death metal on that bus ride.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:47:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
People play LOUD music out on the street all the time in the neighborhood where I live. This is NYC, so they are subjecting a lot of people to this. I get that it's a cultural thing, but to me it's very rude. I am very migraine prone, and I can still hear it with all the windows closed and a pillow over my head.
I'm 17. My friends do this and it makes me so uncomfortable. Like why would you bring a speaker to a public place no one wants to hear it and why would you want people to hear it anyway???
Kilzelf · 1 points · Posted at 20:04:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There was a white guy at my University who walked around blasting hip hop and rap out of his backpack speakers. It was loud but nobody cared cause it was pretty funny. He walked to school every morning.
Yubuqq · 1 points · Posted at 19:07:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
my whole family doesn't fucking understand this...
Yeah, Amanda, I hear you over there watching 13 Reasons Why on your phone. We both work at the same store so I know that you know we sell earbuds for ONE FUCKING DOLLAR, AMANDA!!!
I went to the beach yesterday and someone was fucking blaring the worst country music. Why is it the people with the worst taste in music seem to play theirs the loudest?
Cool, ill blast my headphones, and kinda sing along.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 19:17:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
gaokeai · 1 points · Posted at 20:12:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ok? Your point? Don't play your music out loud, it's rude and inconsiderate. Don't have headphones? Then don't play music at all. It's not that difficult. I don't have working headphones either, I just deal with it. Not having headphones isn't an excuse.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:13:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
gaokeai · 1 points · Posted at 20:27:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oh I didn't know you meant in an apartment. Thats a little different, you can play your music in your own apartment obviously, but if it is bothering other people then that still isn't okay. Essentially if it is loud enough to be heard outside or in the neighboring apartments then imo that isn't okay. You paid for your apartment and you have a right to listen to music in your own apartment, but your neighbors also have a right to listen to silence in their own apartment. I live in an apartment too, I know how it is.
Same thing for your phone conversations. We don't care about your friends weekend and if you actually take them off speaker phone they can hear you better and you can hear them better.
In the US, the First Amendment protects you from government infringement on (most) free speech. It does nothing to keep you from being banned from private establishments, shunned by your peers, or denied private employment.
It also doesn't mean that all points of view are valid or exempt from criticism and contempt. You can say what you want, but I am equally within my rights to tell you you're wrong.
Did... did you just assume gender.... I'm BEYOND offended right now... how could you!? If I want to be an apache attack helicopter, who the fuck are you to tell me I can't!?
Edit: I don't even know if you were talking to me but I'm offended for myself and whoever else you assumed on.
And threats of violence are, from a legal standpoint, assault (that's actually the definition of assault, battery is for if they actually attack). This means that, when people talk about killing people they don't like, it's not protected as free speech.
Unless you use that speech or text to attempt to get others to help you perpetuate ethnic cleansing, then that's perfectly legal. Because America is ridiculous.
Vio_ · 9 points · Posted at 18:53:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I also have the right not to listen. I've v-chipped Fox News in the past. I've had friends who get angry and say that's a first amendment infringement. No it's not. It's my tv. I can do with it what I want. I'm not stopping Fox News from dribbling bullshit onto everyone else. I'm just actively boycotting Fox News. My dad went even further and Vchipped all Fox channels in the past- Fox, FX, Fox Sports, etc.
They're not reasonable if they're not comparing two ideologies
goodr14 · 1 points · Posted at 18:23:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Criticism of your views (should) make you think more about your views. This is one of the best ways to understand your views and criticism normally (for me) shows that you didn't fully understand the views you have.
I think there's a conversation that needs to be had around freedom of speech in a modern enviroment however.
To my knowledge (My history outside of the Crusades isn't the best), part of the reason why freedom of expression only affects the government is because only the government was really in a position to have a monopoly on power over speech. Private interests usually didn't have that much of a share in peoples lives compared to the government which was involved in everyones, and had a relative monopoly on force.
But that's not true anymore. You have social media, like facebook, twitter and youtube, where your speech goes on the record perminently on the record, and is used by practically everyone in the nation. And the powers to moderate that kind of speech and information is within private hands.
So for the first time in history, an entity other than the government can form a monopoly on what is or isn't valid to express. There needs to be a conversation (I feel) as to how freedom of speech and freedom of expression works in this enviroment.
Bayoris · 22 points · Posted at 16:25:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So for the first time in history, an entity other than the government can form a monopoly on what is or isn't valid to express.
I think you could argue that the church had this role as well, in medieval and early modern Europe, possibly to an even greater extent than the government.
It is easier now to express yourself than at any point in history. Where in the past printing presses and the means of disseminating speech were in the hands of a few and newspapers were virtually the only source of news, anyone can now get online and publish their own speech. I struggle to see how private interests control our speech at all, in this context.
That we have a greater ability to speak and be heard is both a great feature of modern life and a big responsibility, but I don't see why it should call for a reevaluation of the right to speak itself.
Well wouldn't the ability of google, and facebook, and youtube to control what you see online lead to control of speech?
Whilst it's true you can publish your opinions more easily, they can moderate it, they can make it less likely to come up in search options whilst making other ideas more likely to come up. In the case of youtube say they can demonitise content that goes against the narrative so people can't make a living off of it if they so wish.
With so many ways to publish your opinions now, there's so much noise to filter through involved in that, and to a not insignificant extent we use these companies to filter through it. Which gives them a lot of influence if they so desire.
Right, just like a newspaper could control who may or may not express an opinion therein. Just like a publishing company could choose to only publish material that supports a certain ideology or narrative. This has been the case since the invention of the printing press.
However, unlike any point in history, the cost of disseminating your own speech is now at a minimum. Regardless of what draconian matters Facebook and YouTube put in place (you never had the right to publish your unedited and uncensored thoughts on that platform anyway), it is easier than ever to "vote with your feet" and select a new platform, or start a website or blog to make your voice heard.
Yes, but I don't think any single given newspaper will have the same percentage of population reading/using it as facebook and youtube do. And thus no newspaper has had the same level of influence.
And I agree, the cost of disseminating your own speech is at a minimum, but it's no guarantee of success or popularity. There are many right wing say youtubers seeing great success and starting there own platforms, and that's great, but I worry if it reaches a point where one can only express ones opinions in a outlet that has a level of agreement with them that the spirit of freedom of speech is violated, even if the legality of it technically isn't.
Of course there's other issues with freedom of speech and online sites in that the government is arresting people for views expressed online, but that's a subtly different discussion.
EDIT: Oh I forgot one; What if google, or all search engines just decide 'No, we won't let any site that disagrees with our worldview show up'.
It depends on where you draw the line. For a given city, a single newspaper was often your only source of news. Local monopolies were the norm, for better or worse.
But you're probably worried about a nationwide monopoly. In which case, Facebook and YouTube don't hold a candle to the historical monopoly held by NBC and CBS. Television was the great platform of the past, and in case you're not old enough to remember a time before cable, you were lucky to have more than three stations with news coverage.
Facebook and YouTube are impressive, don't get me wrong. But media conglomerates are on a whole other level, and have been for over 80 years, and were much more restrictive about what can be shown on their products.
The comics code. McCarthyism. Nipples in the Superbowl. Seven dirty words. All platforms have social expectations. The bigger ones tend to be more socially conservative, not less.
And the last two decades have seen the rise of cable news and right wing media. There have always been plenty of wealthy people willing to create platforms for their worldviews, but now you don't have to be a rich media mogul to do it. As long as the government doesn't crack down on you, you only have to deal with popularity.
And if what you like isnt supported by the masses, you'll probably have to pay a premium for your platform. That's just market dynamics.
It has gotten better, not worse, the last three decades, for people with unpopular platforms to support their platforms in a public place, where their views can be seen and heard. Even if you destroyed Google and all other search engines, and only had the equivalent of a local BBS, it would be better than 30 years ago.
And now I feel old. Kids these days don't know how good they have it, and most adults don't remember what it was like back then either.
Don't get my wrong, I don't that what facebook and youtube and twitter ect ect are dong holds a candle to free speech violations historically. In many parts of the world freedom of speech is a novelty or non existent.
But I'm not talking about monopoly on information say that a traditional news monopoly has (For reference I'm British, and I do remember a time with only 5 analogue channels, and VHS ect ect. I've also never had to deal with a news monopoly because the BBC has always existed and for most of my lifetime was a pretty damn good objective outlet). Even if as you say, Facebook and YouTube don't have the same monopoly of information for news that CBS and NBC did, I don't think CBS and NBC were ever as involved in modern lifestyles as Facebook and YouTube are now, nor did they have the same capacity to direct information and directly promote one kind of speech over another.
Maybe I'm wrong on that though, I am not able to remember the sort of time you are talking about. I don't want to pretend I know absolutely what to do here, I don't even know if my concerns are valid.
I just see Facebook and YouTubes involvement in life only growing, and as such, censorship on them, and how that interacts with Freedom of Speech has to be discussed in depth at some point.
For Facebook, at least, I see it shrinking. Even I don't use it much anymore, and my teenage cousins don't even bother. Much like how my parents and grandparents may be the last generation to watch the news on TV, Facebook seems to have it's demographics centered on people slightly younger than my parents, to slightly younger than me.
My Grandmother has the same relationship with the news that you have with the BBC, except that she's gone from watching American news in it's heyday, which was also excellent, to sitting in her house being scared to death by the worst cable news has to offer. And for her, at least, Fox News has as much influence over her modern life as Reddit does for me. I use that as a barometer for how it was in the 50s and 60s.
And I had this same exact experience with Facebook. First, it was a collection of all my friends' posts, then it was a collection of some of their posts, and now it is a positive feedback loop of sensationalist click bait. That's where I stopped paying attention. Maybe Reddit will reach this point soon for me as well, but my ability to customize Reddit is more powerful than the forces that would make me leave.
I still think you overestimate modern social sites, and underestimate just how entrenched the newspapers were. People used to define their public personas by stating which particular publications they read. Particular newspapers still get lauded or demonized during presidential elections.
You talk about the force of Facebook in your life, but for my younger cousins, Snapchat is life. So I think the situation is still more fluid than you think.
And as for older companies having an effect on acceptable political speech, I recommend looking up the Waldorf Statement. Sure, it was a long time ago, but if you want to see private-based political censorship at its finest, look no further.
I think that would be harder to do now, not easier, because people no longer have to get their media solely though media conglomerates, but I do think this is the sort of thing that is troubling when you have such a large monopoly.
Still, the correct course of action is to just stop using Facebook. That was harder to do back then, for something like movies, but easy now. But I've already almost done that with Facebook, so it is easy for me to say. Your mileage may vary.
There needs to be a conversation (I feel) as to how freedom of speech and freedom of expression works in this enviroment.
I think the parent comment has been implying this for a while.
It's easy to believe that if a massive private entity starts censoring it's users, people will move to the next thing. But how bad does the censorship need to be, and how long will it take? Like the parent said, this is the first time these private entities wield so much power over our lives. More than that, companies like Google and Facebook are multinational. We've already seen Google censor information on behalf of China. There was an outrage at the time, yet I haven't seen more people using Bing or Yahoo over it. So what if China makes an ultimatum and requests Google to do the same thing on their English servers? If it was more beneficial for Google, they probably might do so.
On the flip side, there is a well justified stigma against the government messing with private freedom. We just ought to figure out what to do in the China scenario other than believe "there's no way China would do that" or "there's no way Google would do that".
These social media companies have been around for a short time and any power they wield is due to a subscriber base or readership that voluntarily seeks out and consumes the content. I just don't see how private censorship, which has always existed, justifies compelled speech, or speech restrictions put into place by the government.
I see the concern, but the solution is so insanely clear: seek out your own sources or your own platforms. Facebook and Google can censor whatever they like. To the extent that people disagree with that censorship, the solution already exists.
The issues becomes these large platforms censor one side over the other. You can create your own platform but when these companies have control over large markets it truly shows who has control over what you see.
Maybe, I don't know. Is attempting to ensure that a private entity that serves as a platform for expression doesn't infringe on freedom of expression in and off itself a violation of freedom of expression, ?
Because I don't know. I don't know what should be done about it, I just want to see a discussion about it, because I think times are different enough that the discussion needs to be had.
People far more versed in the legalities and issues than I should have far more meaningful debates on the issue. I just want the discussion to happen before it's potentially too late.
It's a private entity though. If you personally had two people give you two speeches, one which you agree with and one that you disagree with, would you share both of those to everyone that you talk about it with?
I would assume that most times, you'd ignore the speech that you think is incorrect, and you'd refrain from spreading its ideologies.
It's no different for a private enterprise like Facebook, except they have a much larger audience than you do.
That being said, if you're able to share your viewpoint to a large audience, Facebook or Google intervening wouldn't have such a significant impact.
Yeah, I get that. I don't think it's actively malicious per say, and they are doing it because they believe it is the right thing to do.
But I think they are in a position of relatively high influence, and thus should probably have a higher burden of expectation or behaviour around this than any given individual.
The same as we do, to some extent, expect media outlets to hold themselves to a certain standard because of the position they are in.
I guess that's true. If media doesn't keep a high standard, they would lose viewers, which means they lose money.
Facebook wouldn't really lose members and overall viewership regardless of what they share/censor.
It is a tricky situation, especially since Facebook's information relies heavily on the users, which means it's more than just a company, but also many individuals as well.
The thing is at what of influence does the term "private entitiy" become meaningless.
If that private entitiy has more pull than the goverment, how come it's not labled as something public or official?
If something can sway the opinion of a country by carefully targeting who get's to read which news, then maybe we've to redefine our definitions.
If there was a newspaper that every person in the world read every morning, do you think that any one government, or group of governments, should retain control over it?
I get what you are wanting: Protected speech no matter the platform, but what you seem to be advocating is what Russia is already doing (state intervention on mass media online and in print), Look at what Russia did to Live Journal. This is a great introduction to how Russia handled Live Journal.
how come it's not labled as something public or official?
How do you think the current U.S. administration would handle our media if they had control of Facebook, Google and Youtube?
I think it would be a lot less free, not to mention that non-U.S. individuals use these services as well. It would be more beneficial for the individual if we did not rely on centralized services that have no transparency, but instead created a 'for-the-people-by-the-people' decentralized version of each of those services it would work out better. I am also not talking about created by the state, but the individuals of the world, separate from our governments.
Yes, i agree. Just handing over such a hypothetical 100%-readership newspaper would be devastating. Doesn't matter if it's private or federal.
I think there should be rules that something like that can't even happen in the first place. Information should not be a monopol and in most countries the media is already owned by such a small amount of people that bascially sole families decide what the common peasant get's to read/watch.
I don't consider that a lot better tbh. And on that note i'll also agree with your last part. Media, similar to money, is to centralized atm and it's definitly not benefical to the "normal" people.
The moment you're opening a newspaper or turning on the TV you're bombarded with biased propaganda trying to push whatever bullshit agenda is flavour of the month, but certainly not just the pure neutral facts about stuff.
Something like Facebook can only share information, not directly change your beliefs. That being said, a large part of society does rely on Facebook and the like for all of their news, which might mean it needs to be regulated more thoroughly.
It shouldn't be that way, people should actually do their research on important subjects, but that's not the way it is.
Jeah, but i work with SEO companies and it's really amazing how precise they can target who get's to see what and with what precision they're working.
I mean we already see how echo chambers like Reddit, Tumbler etc. shape the way we talk and behave in discussions. The more prevalent social medias etc. become the more we'll be shaped by it.
I'm not advocating the nations seizing control over every social media, as some people try to insinuate in the responses, i'm just pondering the question: What can we do in the future with all these problems around free speech, social media etc.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 12:58:55 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
That being said, a large part of society does rely on Facebook and the like for all of their news, which might mean it needs to be regulated more thoroughly.
Absolutely not. There is no call for regulation when a private entity opts to entertain it's user base in whatever way the deem to. What if The Daily Show - at it's height - was deemed too influential because of the arbitrary threshold of viewers that it had? Not everyone watching it understands or processes that it is satire, not news. Should it have been regulated as a result? (No.)
"You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink."
No, the question still stands. The moment big corps can put similar influence onto the people as goverments, that's also the moment we've to put the same controlling/rules onto them. That just seems logical to me.
Sayin' "it's private" as a free pass to do just anything with no regards to the public is not the way to go.
DialMMM · 1 points · Posted at 00:31:06 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
It still doesn't make the term "private entity" meaningless, which is what you asked about.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 12:55:40 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
If that private entitiy has more pull than the goverment, how come it's not labled as something public or official?
Because it isn't. A private entity cannot make policy, pass or repeal laws, or perform any other governmental function in any official capacity.
They CAN use influence to encourage or promote such actions by government officials and offices, but they have no independent ability to do so on their own.
If something can sway the opinion of a country by carefully targeting who get's to read which news, then maybe we've to redefine our definitions.
That's been occurring for decades - maybe even longer. While FB did get caught promoting a specific agenda, that really only impacts people who chose to rely on that specific entity for that purpose. If you made the decision to source all of your relevant information from a single source, in this case, facebook-promoted links, then isn't that an issue that's on you?
Because it isn't. A private entity cannot make policy, pass or repeal laws, or perform any other governmental function in any official capacity.
They CAN use influence to encourage or promote such actions by government officials and offices, but they have no independent ability to do so on their own.
Yes, and that influence can't be taken lightly. That's why there are rule against monopolies for example.
Just take a look at Goldman Sachs and their shenanigan. The '08 crisis wouldn't have happened if GS didn't change laws and regulations for years to even make CDSs possible, for example.
The UBS nearly bankrupted every citizens bank account in Switzerland due to their idiocy during that time and the taxpayer had to pay another 60 billion to save that goddamn bank. Once companies actions can impact and severly damage even the richest countries on earth, it's not done by saying: Welp, it's private, they can just do and say whatever they want.
That's been occurring for decades - maybe even longer. While FB did get caught promoting a specific agenda, that really only impacts people who chose to rely on that specific entity for that purpose. If you made the decision to source all of your relevant information from a single source, in this case, facebook-promoted links, then isn't that an issue that's on you?
It's complicated. While it's on the individual to inform itself, it's also in everyones best interest if there are mutliple valid ways of obtaining information about something.
And that's a thing that's harder and harder to do. Unless you're very versed in surfing the internet and have above average skills in filterin' out bullshit and detecting bias/agenda it's very hard to not get baited into social media targeted stuff and the mainstream media is more and more monopolized anyway.
I could be convinced that private platforms (Such as Google, Facebook, News Outlets, etc) have a moral / ethical duty to cover all sides of the issue, and allow for freedom of speech within their platform to the maximum extent they reasonably can. Do note, that if they go this route they MUST NOT censor hate speech, etc: since doing so would obviously be a violation of the principle of freedom of speech.
On the other hand, I believe that any attempts to coerce such behavior (via laws or other means of force) crosses over the line into the government controlling speech. If the government forces Facebook to show this content or not show that content, that is a clear-cut violation of freedom of the press.
Yeah, that's basically what I align with. I don't back government censored speech in almost any form, but I think that entities which are achieving a relative monopoly on information and discourse should have a high standard of openness than a private citizen say, similar to newspapers currently.
But I don't know if that's right, and there's variations of the argument I've never considered, so I'm kind all over the place on it.
What? They're suggesting the exact opposite, that free speech should be protected not only from government censorship and retribution, but from increasingly powerful corporations as well.
The only way to regulate businesses, as far as I'm aware, is through state action. If the government steps in to supervise a private entity (whether a huge corporation like Facebook where opinions and photos are posted millions of times per day, or a mom and pop shop that wants to host an amateur art event), the government is effectively supervising and regulating speech itself.
When you speak online, you do not so so freely. You are using these sites subject to a terms of service agreement and the site cannot and should not be compelled through state action to host (or censor, for that matter) my speech.
This is a case where a problem is created, and the knee-jerk reaction is to "solve" that perceived problem by implementing a solution far worse and more dangerous than the initial problem itself.
google would be risking their position as "the marketplace". It would be a huge boon to the facebooks, twitters (and reddits?) of the world as people interested in that conversation would have to go elsewhere.
Since when did freedom of speech come with a guarantee of success or popularity?
Your argument is meritless at any rate, because you can find a site endorsing pretty much any viewpoint, no matter how hateful, with even the most cursory search.
True, it doesn't, I just think it diminishes the argument of 'just go to another platform' a little because it's inherently limiting the number of people you can share your opinions with relative to how many someone with a different more acceptable opinion could solely on the fact your opinions differ.
And if that wasn't the case? If the direct actions of google and all other search engines say prevented you from finding certain viewpoints, would it still be a meritless argument? Just suppose that's the case for me.
Vemasi · 2 points · Posted at 19:20:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is why net neutrality is an issue. Google and YouTube are private entities and can remove things you post form their services, or from showing up in their seearches. However, you have the option to, for instance, go to another forum or, in the end, make your own website that you pay for. No one can stifle your website without some kind of nefarious behavior, or taking legal action if you're breaking the law. Even if you were denied space on a server, you could serve your own content from your own equipment. So long as someone has access to the internet and you can get them there, you can communicate to people via your website.
Google is not responsible for giving you a platform. Only public pressure can force them to leave things up. (For instance, consider if someone was able to upload enough information to fill Google's servers. Should they have to continually buy new servers just for them to be filled up, or could they delete everything that person put on their equipment that they provide to serve their customers?)
However, if net neutrality is abolished, internet providers could start limiting which websites people could access, thus denying you a platform in the public sphere. ISPs are trying to say that they own the platform that is the internet you access, and thus they are within their private rights to limit what reaches their customers, like Google is. However, it was previously ruled that telecoms companies do not have that right. For instance, phone services cannot suddenly block all outgoing calls from, say, Charlottesville, in order to stifle information or coerce residents in some way. Their job is to provide equal access to the service, and in fact they receive federal money to maintain the quality of their infrastructure. Thus, the internet as a whole has sanctity as a public forum.
However, unlike any point in history, the cost of disseminating your own speech is now at a minimum
Technically true but wildly misleading. I could just as easily say "it's always been easy to simply just say words, which means it's always been easy to disseminate your own speech."
The world is a noisy train station these days. Being free to talk calmly at a reasonable volume is virtually meaningless compared to the privilege of access to the high-powered station-wide intercoms.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 12:50:31 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
it is easier than ever to "vote with your feet" and select a new platform, or start a website or blog to make your voice heard.
They created and control the platforms being used as well as pre-populating the audience. You cannot co-opt that audience for your own purposes if they deem it a misuse of their platform. And if you want to create your own platform, good luck populating the same audience. You can create a blog - lots have - but attracting an audience will be much more of a time and effort investment than most are willing to make - and never with the success of a pre-populated audience like Reddit/Facebook/Twitter/Etc.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 20:06:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Even so, it's my prerogative to use google or facebook or youtube. Just as easily, I can use a multitude of other sources- other search engines, specific web sites that do or do not conform to my beliefs or ideas, just as I could do the same with written news (ie newspapers, books, etc).
You are allowed to say what you want, but I don't have to read it, and google/facebook/youtube don't have to spread it if they do not want to.
Besides, my understanding of free speech only affecting the governments was due to preventing the persecution of individuals for their opinions and thereby silencing opponents, newspapers, etc. which would inherently be "anti-democracy". Of course, that's just my opinion and I could have missed the point entirely.
You can for sure use other sites for this. But would you agree that facebook, google, youtube say are bigger parts of modern life that they were say 4, 5 years ago? I'd say so, but I could be wrong.
Yeah, to my understanding that is valid interperation of freedom of speech. So I ask you: If facebook say, with it's millions of followers, decided in the run up to an election to remove all right wing news sources and such, and show only left wing ones, would that not have similar levels of influence on an election as the direct silencing of political opinions, and thus be similarly damaging to democracy?
Also; How crazy are your cats? :o
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 21:55:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Actually, I've started to use Facebook less, and I don't really use youtube at all. I rather like the NYtimes portion where they look at reactions across the aisle (if we're talking politics) to find different perspectives.
With regards to your question re: facebook, yes that would undoubtedly affect and be damaging to democracy, I think. That being said, the onus isn't on facebook to be an unbiased source of information, that is on the reader to find for themselves. Like using only Breitbart or only the Washington Post would have a similar effect.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 22:01:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Totally forgot the last question lol, my fiance (yea, I know the username is dated) and I have 3 and I converted him to love cats, and I cat-sit and volunteer with the animal shelter to take care of cats. So...pretty crazy lol.
[deleted] · 4 points · Posted at 16:53:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Google is a private company. If they decided tomorrow to only show photos of Democrats looking cool or articles on how Trump is a wonderful man, then they have that right entirely. It's a private company and nobody is forcing you to use it. If you want to make your own search engine and host servers then you can.
Well, yes they have the right currently. But I think saying 'if you don't like it, move to a different search engine' is just an avoidance of the discussion.
The legality of it doesn't have to change just because a discussion is happening. I just think it's important to consider how freedom of speech works when, to all intents and purposes, there are organisations other than government that can have a monopoly on speech. The idea being to challenge whether the priciple of freedom of expression is still be upheld.
It absolutely is, even if your example. The owners and operators of Google are also allowed their own freedom of expression. If you want to limit that, you're limiting their right to free speech.
But if the hypothetical in the argument is that services such as google, and youtube are limiting the free speech of others, whose 'right to free speech' wins in that case?
Google and Youtube are privately owned businesses. You have no right to say anything on their services - they're privately owned. It would be like arguing that because your neighbor preventing you from putting up signs in your neighbor's front yard, your speech is being limited. It isn't.
Google isn't preventing you from putting up a sign in your yard, or grabbing a soapbox and shouting, or printing pamphlets (though a company could choose not to print them!). They're saying that they won't publish or highlight your stuff, which is their right. You can even privately host your own website and fill it with whatever you want.
They are not ever limiting your speech. They're just not providing you a platform for it, which is their absolute right. You are not owed a YouTube platform.
Yes, I know, that is how the law functions currently.
However suppose this(Taken from another reply on her, so credit to them); Imagine if in some hypothetical future 100% of commication between individuals is done solely over facebook, and facebook alone. Whilst facebook is still privately owned, and existing free-speech laws remain in effect.
Would censorship of anything that doesn't cause direct harm to others, be, or not be a violation of free speech in that case? How would you interpret the law in that case?
I see what you're getting at, but I'm not sure the question is useful. At that point you're essentially talking about an autocracy and the question of free speech with respect to a functioning democracy goes out the window.
So I think, in the frame of the question I think that Omni-Facebook is infringing on free speech, but it isn't different from say, Soviet Russia or Nazi Germany or any other autocratic reign.
In an attempt to bring this back to reality, I'd say your point is a good argument for Net Neutrality, ensuring that there is a fair and competitive internet and prevents a company from becoming, in effect, an autocratic government. That said, I also wouldn't generalize this to Google or anything we have now.
Yeah, it's an extreme example, but I find taking the argument to the extreme is important because you then have to decide on 'at what point does it become fair instead of illegal say'. Like taxes is a great one for doing that.
Would you be in favour, or against having media outlets like google and youtube ect ect being held under high moral obligations to respect the spirit of freedom of speech? I.E. not censoring opinions for political reasons, or plain disagreement and the like. Much like newspapers and such are held to higher standards because of libel and slander and the like.
So with respect to libel and slander, you need to prove that 1.) they lied knowingly and 2.) with intent to harm. This is again designed with the purpose of respecting free speech: you want a journalist or opinion author to be able to do their work without repercussion from honest mistakes. The law probably errs on the side of letting more dishonest mistakes by, which I think is reasonable. I'd generally prefer we let more criminals go free rather than punish innocent men, a-la John Adams.
"It is more important that innocence be protected than it is that guilt be punished, for guilt and crimes are so frequent in this world that they cannot all be punished. But if innocence itself is brought to the bar and condemned, perhaps to die, then the citizen will say, 'whether I do good or whether I do evil is immaterial, for innocence itself is no protection,' and if such an idea as that were to take hold in the mind of the citizen that would be the end of security whatsoever."
The problem I have with establishing "high moral obligations" (I'm assuming legal ones) is that 1.) This essentially requires you to legislate against the first Amendment, which would require an amendment and 2.) who do you trust to establish these standards? In a sense, we already have this system but it's determined in part by dictate of the masses and thus free market forces. You think Google is a shitty search Engine? Go to Bing or Yahoo or DuckDuckGo. You have that power. You do not have the right in any sense to force the New York Times to print your ideas. To do so violates their speech, and it's the same with YouTube or any other media hosting and distribution service.
That said, no, I don't think we can under any circumstance legislate that Google must give a platform to anyone. If we're really worried about Google becoming the only communication system for all humans, we should be looking at antitrust legislation and not worried about trying to determine whose right to speak is prime. If you feel an outlet or service is biased, you are free to take your business elsewhere.
I don't know how you'd introduce such moral obligations in a way that doesn't lead to government over reach, because as you say if they are legal ones ultimately the government has final control over it, and that's not especially healthy in the long term.
So yeah, I don't really have an idea of what to do for any of this. I just that there are potential future problems given how pervasive these media giant are in life nowadays. And it's not a simple issue.
Hell, there's been so many comments presenting argument here I'd never considered that makes it evident.
I think it's a difficult hypothetical because why does FB have a literal monopoly on communication? Our laws should be preventing that. I don't know if there has been an equivalent precedent set for the government allowing a monopoly. Utility companies might be the closest thing we have.
Vemasi · 1 points · Posted at 19:27:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It would be a bizarre sci-fi world in which you couldn't get up from your chair and say audible words to another person in the next room.
If a service became so ubiquitous that it was necessary for life and business to function, the government would probably buy it, provide an alternative, or legislate about it and thus have to provide some kind of support for it. Like phone lines, roads, etc. And then, equal rights to unrestricted access to it would be a thing, limited only by physical ability to access (i.e., a downed telephone line is not limiting your access to free speech, but if the police say you cannot use the road to distribute your political pamphlets to book stores, that probably is).
Yes, it would be bizzare, and horrifying. Imagine communicating for the rest of time without being able to read tone. Gives me shivers just thinking about it.
But I propose it because it's the ultimate extension of my concern, so I'm always interested in how peoples attitudes to the current situation apply in the most extreme situation.
I hadn't considering the option of the government buying it out, and I don't know if I'd approve of that solution either. So thank you for the new outcome to think about.
Okymyo · 5 points · Posted at 19:20:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What about companies like Facebook altering what people see with the intent of changing the way they think or feel?
They can certainly influence people enough to shift their opinions on certain subjects in some ways, akin to subliminal messaging. Is this sort of thing okay? It's still technically their platform, you're not forced to be on it. Like this, they can also influence the way you feel, on demand.
What about if Google just starts shifting what you see? Like, what if when you search for a political candidate they love the first page is full of positive articles and news, but for the candidate they dislike it's the opposite? Google has an 81% market share, so 81% of internet users would be affected. They don't need to make this obvious. They can just make it subtle. Sometimes they could just push propaganda that favours their agenda to the top.
And what if Facebook/Reddit starts changing what people said? It's their platform, they can do anything they want, right?
These companies have massive userbases and massive influence. There's literally nothing anyone can do to dethrone them. Nearly all private communication is handled by private entities, whether you take into account social networks or not, a vast majority of communications is shifting towards privately owned companies. And if they want you shutdown, they can shut you down, and there's nothing you can do about it. Social networks can remove your presence and make criticisms more prevalent, search engines can make you show up less, infrastructure companies (ISPs, datacenters, etc) can deny service. If you're even more evil, DNS providers (hey, Google also has a gigantic market share here) can stop your domain from resolving, and domain registrars can refuse service to you (or register the domains you request for themselves, so you can never get them).
Yes, you "can" start your own ISP or get your own connection to internet backbones, you "can" create your own datacenter, you "can" become your own domain registrar, you "can" make your way into large DNS servers (but still not into Google's, which is largely used), but is that really something to accept? When are enough barriers to your speech considered actual censorship? Or is it never censorship as long as you can still yell things out of your yard?
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 21:24:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Again. The internet is a large place. Google and Facebook are both private companies. They're well liked so they get tons of traffic. In a truly fair and free internet, they can do whatever they want. If they want to monitor search results and change them to some political leaning, that's their prerogative. Users would eventually notice and shift to alternatives that aren't politically charged.
Okymyo · 2 points · Posted at 21:34:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And if Facebook is literally altering the search results to increase depressive tendencies in specific targets, as they've tested doing in the past? Is that also acceptable?
You've also ignored a large portion of my answer where Google and Facebook and other similar companies have a well established monopoly. Google has over 80% of searches, and over 30% of DNS requests.
It's impossible for you to grow any platform if Google and Facebook don't want you to, and actively stop you from doing it.
And you're also largely ignoring the fact that you don't necessarily get to know they're doing it. Are they doing it right now? How can you know? Unless confidential information leaks, you can never know if the results are being altered to fit their agenda.
You've also ignored the concerns about them being able to edit what you see.
Also, since ISPs are privately owned entities too, are they allowed to alter what you see as well?
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 21:37:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's not impossible to grow a competing platform. There are already several out there. The real issue is people are too lazy and comfortable to make change. Don't blame Google. Blame the people who choose Google.
Okymyo · 2 points · Posted at 21:43:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No you can't. If Google doesn't want you to, you can't. They'll make sure you never show up anywhere (for 80%+ of internet users), and will literally make your website unreachable for 30%+ of internet users.
Also, you've essentially ignored 90% of my reply.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 21:45:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You don't need Google to own and operate a search engine. You know this thing at the top of your internet browser? It's called an address bar. You type in internet address and it takes you there without Google.
Okymyo · 2 points · Posted at 21:53:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You know what happens when you type in an address? If it's a domain, it'll request data from your DNS servers, that will tell you to where that domain resolves. You know who owns the largest public DNS servers, that lots of ISPs use? Google does. You know what happens if they decide to block your website? The same thing that happens when you open www.rgj0egjer09gjkre0grekjgprwekgprsogksdpogkspgo.com on your browser.
Olli399 · 2 points · Posted at 17:35:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well wouldn't the ability of google, and facebook, and youtube to control what you see online lead to control of speech?
You say this as if it's not already happening. It is.
But I find you get better traction with people by involving and asking them, rather than dictating things to them. In my expierence it makes them less like to go defensive and thus you have a better chance of seeing a fun conversation through :D
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:54:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not showing something to someone is not the same as controlling what they see. You arent controlling somebody simply by not doing something they want you to do.
That we have a greater ability to speak and be heard is both a great feature of modern life and a big responsibility, but I don't see why it should call for a reevaluation of the right to speak itself.
One good example I can give that we should differentiate between freedom of speech and freedom of expression is the abilities of wealthy entities to lobby.
One of our rights under free speech is the right to vote. If you're wealthy one of your current rights under free speech is to express your opinion with your money. Let's say 10 million people vote a certain way on an issue, currently if one person (or company) with $10,000,000 was able to convince policy makers to act contrary to the vote, directly through their money, than protecting that right to expression means they've been allowed to purchase the speech of 10 million people without those people offering to sell it. Another way to look at this, and one that should make anyone furious, is that by preserving this right to expression we have granted the policy maker the right to sell someone (anyone/everyone's) free speech.
The elected official is still elected. $10 million is never as powerful as even a single vote so long as there are no votes on the other side. The issue you point out deals with lobbying and oversight rather than pure speech. The First Amendment protects your right to contact your representative in government as well.
[deleted] · 19 points · Posted at 16:17:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That conversation is already being had every day. But invariably freedom of expression cannot be extended to proscribe any kind of non-government action because that in itself would violate the First Amendment.
The primary purpose of the First Amendment was to limit government proscriptions on political speech, which has the tendency to thwart checks on the government such as the right to vote. But respecting companies, including those that host your content, you already have a sufficient check: you can stop using them.
Well if it's being had, that's good. I just usually see the conversation being 'how does one deal with hate speech in the modern era', which I think it not the crux of the issue.
I'm not hugely versed in constitutional law here, so forgive me if this point is foolish, but isn't the wording on the First Ammendment 'Congress shall make no law... abridging freedom of speech'. It seems to depend on how you define freedom of speech, and if freedom of speech can be redefined to include any insitution that could form a 'monopoly' over speech or expression, it would be legal. The idea that it's freedom from government oppression, comes from the definition of free speech, not the amendment itself.
But again, not versed in constitutional law, or law in general so that's probably bollocks.
I would still say, there's never been a period in history (To my again limited knowledge) where any institution other than government could form a monopoly of control over speech. It's not unfeasible to imagine that happening with these massive social media, or even traditional media outlets.
[deleted] · 6 points · Posted at 17:19:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well first it's impossible for any contemporary institutions to form a monopoly on speech. Google has a lot of power, but it can never stop you from saying what you feel when you're not on the internet. If facebook came out and categorically denounced you for something you said, it still doesn't have the same powers of government that the framers feared: that they can jail or kill you for your speech.
Respecting your interpretation of the First Amendment, you have to remember that the proscription falls on "Congress." It took a Civil War to get us to extend that proscription to state governments. Even with an expansive definition of freedom of speech the proscription has been historically interpreted to fall on governments, not companies.
Okay, that's true. I'll admit that corporations can't form an absolute monopoly on speech, but social media is becoming an ever larger and ever more engaged part of our lives, so the areas they have influence are increasing. They may not be able to kill you, and jail you, but they could eventually ostracise you and probably silence you in that aspect of life.
Again, true. But aside from the Catholic Church, has there ever been a period of time where companies have had as much power and influence (Even if it's soft influence) as they do now? So the relative balance of power between state and corporations is smaller now I'd say.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:09:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
social media is becoming an ever larger and ever more engaged part of our lives, so the areas they have influence are increasing.
Then be mindful of what you place in the social media space.
Stop using reddit. Go use a facebook alternative. Never log into twitter again. Delete your account for instagram too while your at it.
That's like saying you can stop going to the grocery store.
I get it. I don't have to use walmart. There's target. But on the internet that isn't the case.
That's like saying i can stop going to walmart, in a world where the only place to buy anything is walmart.
Go start a facebook competitor. Do it right now. Oh there isn't a competitor with Facebook? MYSPACE you say? Oh sweetheart. They're dead. Good luck getting them restarted.
[deleted] · -1 points · Posted at 18:02:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
...Or you could just get a tor browser and an inconspicuous username and not put your photos up. Problem solved.
There are tons of avenues for free speech. However there are not tons of avenues to say whatever you want with no consequences. If you want the latter, there are plenty ways to get to it with very little threat of any consequence.
What kind of consequences are we talking here? Social isolation is perfectly practical and can be expected. But we're at a time where kicking nazis to death is what everyone wants to do. And kicking a nazi to death isn't okay. Because we're better than them.
Did a nazi kill someone or physically hurt them in another way? No? Then laugh at him. Did a nazi kill or physically harm a person in any other way? Yes? Is he in prison? No? Call the cops. Oh he is in prison? Case closed.
We can't punish people for being nazis. Just like I can't punish you for being a marxist. We punish people for hurting each other. It. Does. Not. Matter. How. Much. We. Hate. Their. Ideas. We don't punish them for that. Because we are either worse or better than they are.
Jesus fucking christ. Can't believe I'm forced to defend skinheads because apparently violence over shitty ideas isn't fascism anymore. Which... also apparently isn't fascism anymore. Fucking retarded.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:33:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No. that's just not how it works.
The government can't punish people for being nazis. But private individuals can definitely punish nazis as long as such punishments fall within the bounds of the law. In the eyes of the law, being a nazi is not a protected class and therefore there are no special protections the law extends to that form of political thought.
Can you fire a nazi from a job? Absolutely. Can you ridicule them? Absolutely. Can you refuse to hire them, serve them food, or allow them any other kind of patronage? Abso-fucking-lutely. That's all because the First Amendment is a two-way street. You can be a nazi all you like, but people are also free to condemn and disassociate from you.
"Free Speech" does not mean "comes with no consequences."
Here's the rub. Our supreme court has ruled certain spaces on the internet to be public forums. Simply for their cultural significance. Even if they are maintained and owned by a private company.
It isn't googles place to decide what is and is not acceptable thought. If it does not break their rules they have no right finding other ways to censor you.
If they don't want to hire you for being a nazi. Good. If they they fire you for being a nazi. Good.
If we start killing people because someone called them a nazi: bad.
Why is this difficult for me to say in a way you understand?
Do i have to use five year old talk?
Be friends with nazi not okay. Its bad. But its not okay to hit nazis. We don't hit them. We laugh at them cause they're stupid. We don't give them jobs because they're stupid. We don't throw rocks at them because we're not stupid. And we don't let them throw rocks at other people because we're not stupid.
Holy shit do I need to add more qualifiers to my opinion for you to get it through your dense ass skull? Or are you seriously just deaf to the 80% of my argument where I'm saying we don't want anything to do with nazis?
But it isn't okay to PHYSICALLY HARM someone for their opinion. Especially when these days all it takes to be a "literal nazi" is to be a conservative. Double so if you're Christian.
Edit: and fuck off with your protected class bullshit. By protecting one class over another you are explicitly stating one group is better than the other and putting the other on a pedestal to counteract this. It's ridiculous.
If a nazi opened a whites only bar it'd be shut down in a month and you know it.
Free speech is a two way street. But that street never leads to an excuse for violence. If you can't get that then you need a looooonggg look into thr mirror before you start punching people who may be nazis.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 19:52:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Lol I'm not even sure what we're arguing about here anymore but you seem really upset.
But in any case if google decided to censor you, they can definitely do that and you won't have a first amendment argument to stand on, public forum or no. Now are there other laws that might prevent them from such censorship, probably. But you can't use the First Amendment against google.
I'm not upset. At all. If you think i am I'd suggest it's because you're projecting your own insecurities into the way I treated your misrepresentation of my argument.
I'm arguing that violence isn't okay. That social stigma is more than enough to make 99.9% of nazis shut up and live in a hole. Can you agree with this statement?
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 20:01:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You sure? Because you seem upset and you're ranting and it's clear you don't know wtf you're talking about because you brought up public forums and there are pretty much none on the internet. There are limited public fora but I've yet to see a no holds barred (nearly) everything goes forum for speech operated by a government - cuz that's what a public forum is.
Public forums are public spaces meaning they are operated by the government. Traditionally they are parks, streets corners, speaking halls, but courts haven't said that any particular part of the internet not maintained by a government is a public forum. So I'm not sure where the hell youre getting into this discussion of google and public fora.
You could always name one or cite a case. I won't hold my breath though.
I was ranting because i have fun with it. Because I'm enjoying myself. Not because I'm upset with you.
I apologize if I came across that way. I do tend to cuss a lot, moreso over the internet. I'm not trying to rant, or rave.
I'm genuinely asking if you can agree that physical violence isn't okay. Even if the victim of said violence is a nazi?
I don't want you to tell me it's okay for companies to select who to hire. I agree. It is okay for them to do that. Idk if we're going to reconcile our feelings about freedom of speech on social media. But that's okay.
I don't think it's okay for you or me or anyone to see a person with a swastika tattoo, minding their business, and kill them where they stand. That will never be okay in my mind.
I just want to know if you would be okay with that scenario.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 20:21:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I typically don't condone physical violence for someone's speech. Now would I personally punch a Nazi? Absolutely. But I would also expect to go to jail for that, because it's illegal to punch people. In spite of my personal feelings on Nazis I still think they deserve all the protections that anyone else would be accorded in America and would never condone the state enacting such violence or even permitting it from private actors.
"But respecting companies, including those that host your content, you already have a sufficient check: you can stop using them."
The question is, are we getting to a point in our society where this is the equivalent of:
"You already have a check to keep your freedom of speech from being infringed: Don't speak."
Is twitter a company or a medium of speech? What about facebook and reddit? Is banning speech from Twitter like banning it from a newspaper, or from ALL newspaper print?
That depends on whether Twitter has a monopoly on a type of speech. I don't think they do. But we're close enough to that point to have the discussion.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:06:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I have no idea what your reply has to do with my post, but you make some interesting points.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:11:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not at all - but if you're not going to think before you speak, it calls in to question the significance of what you're going to say and what your purpose is for saying it.
Say whatever you want, but don't expect to be free from the consequences of stating it.
Even if Twitter is a medium of speech and/or has a monopoly on a type of speech, the First Amendment specifies that Congress shall not abridge your free speech. Also, do newspapers not have the power to abstain from prints things they don't want to print?
You already have a check to keep your freedom of speech from being infringed: Don't speak
Well, no private company or person owns the air out in public, so that's not going to be the case.
But invariably freedom of expression cannot be extended to proscribe any kind of non-government action because that in itself would violate the First Amendment.
This is categorically untrue. If it were true, whistleblower protections would be unconstitutional.
[deleted] · 6 points · Posted at 17:09:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No.
Whistleblower actions are targeted at preventing retaliation for disclosing bad acts. A restriction on retaliation is generally content-neutral, the government isn't suppressing any viewpoint it's restricting the right to fire someone for disclosing or complaining about a bad act. No court has ever extended 1st amendment rights to companies or the government in their decisions to hide information about bad or illegal acts. The 1st AM just simply isn't implicated.
Contrast that with what the commenter said. Ostensibly he is saying that if a person, take the guy from Google who got fired, voiced an opinion and was fired, first amendment rights should extend to google to prohibit them from the firing. THAT is likely a 1st amendment violation. The gov can't preference the speech of employees over employers.
A restriction on retaliation is generally content-neutral
This is what the comment I replied to said:
But invariably freedom of expression cannot be extended to proscribe any kind of non-government action
Firing an employee for disclosing bad acts is... wait for it... an action.
No court has ever extended 1st amendment rights to companies or the government in their decisions to hide information about bad or illegal acts.
No shit. That's literally exactly what I'm saying: that the commenter I replied to is wrong, because the 1st Amendment does not "proscribe any kind of non-government action."
What the fuck do you think these people are talking about when they say "freedom of speech [which they're conflating with the 1st Amendment] doesn't mean freedom from consequences?"
They're very clearly saying "bitch you better watch what you say because if you don't, your private company might decide to fire your ass."
I just pointed out a clear example of where a citizen can say something and their private company cannot fire them in retaliation - an exception to their view of how far the 1st Amendment extends and how it operates.
That is 100% relevant to this discussion. It proves that the 1st Amendment does not require absolute slavish obedience to the notion that protecting a citizen from the consequences of their speech is impossible because it would violate the rights of, say, the company that wants to fire them.
It is trivially, trivially easy for a company firing a whistleblower to reframe their action - not lie via pretext, mind, but simply reframe the issue to one of ideals and beliefs - as engaging in speech that ought to be protected by the 1st Amendment. They've got lots of loose precedent to cite when religion comes into play, incidentally. The courts choose to claim that that's all bullshit because it's convenient for them to do so. What happens when another company starts bitching about "religion" to fuck with health insurance? Well then, the analysis magically changes, doesn't it?
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:49:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A citizen relying on whistleblower protections against a private company can't invoke their 1st amendment rights because they're not at issue, so it's still not relevant. The 1st only applies to government actors, if we're talking private employers, they aren't government actors.
Your original statement was that I was categorically wrong that the 1st amendment proscriptions could be placed on employers as evidenced by whistleblower protections. But whistleblower protections in the context of private companies simply don't involve a 1st amendment analysis when there are no state actors present.
Whistleblower protections aren't even meant to defend speech rights, they're meant to cause companies to behave better and avoid firing and discrediting people who reveal misdeeds.
DMCDawg · 7 points · Posted at 17:21:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The government is still the only entity with ABSOLUTE power over speech. If Twitter deletes my account over what I've said, I can go to a competitor, I could start my own version of Twitter, I could print a thousand leaflets and distribute them to my neighbors. I could do anything else to get my message out there, and Twitter would be powerless to stop me. If the a government doesn't like my speech, I simply can't say it. They can seize my property, throw me in jail, or even execute me with complete impunity.
Isord · 3 points · Posted at 18:28:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How is it any different than news papers? Should a news paper be required to publish every letter sent to it?
But it's funny you bring up newspapers, because aren't newspapers held to a higher standard than most private institutions (Through slander and libel laws) precisely because of the potential influence they can have by printing misinformation?
Isord · 3 points · Posted at 18:56:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Slander and libel can apply to anybody, not just newspapers. They are not held to any specific standard in that regard. For awhile TV news was required to give equal air time to opposing political candidates and the fairness doctrine required that things be presented in a "balanced" manner, which was up to the interpretation of the FCC.
Neither rule applies anymore.
Edit: Actually I'm not sure if the equal air time rule still applies, but the Fairness Doctrine was dropped.
IIRC (IANAL), it's just that slander and libel required damage to be done, which is arguably easier for a newspaper to do since a lot of people presumably read it, whereas any Joe Blow on the street spewing lies isn't going to be taken seriously by passersby. However someone like Elon Musk or Bill Gates have huge followings, so they arguably could cause damages by telling their followers something.
There isnt much need of a conversation. The 1st Amendment is the 1st Amendment and needs no changes. Private companies have the right to do what they want with their product, if you are using their product in a means they disagree with they have every right to not let you use their product. And in a capitalist free market there is suddenly a supply and demand gap and it opens the door for new companies to come along and fill that void.
A current example is Patreon starting to kick people off their platform for speech. A company Hatreon (dumb name I know) was created to fill the void.
Private companies have the right to do what they want with their product, if you are using their product in a means they disagree with they have every right to not let you use their product
This is just patently untrue.
There are many restrictions and laws about what you can and cannot do with your product, especially if your product is a service to the general public.
Some of the more prominent would be anti-discrimination laws. Other controversies would be things like right-to-repair or net neutrality. Let's not even talk 'doing what you want with your product' if your product is housing or medical care!
The free market is obviously not a cure-all. These things require intelligent policy-making.
Well, maybe if you stopped interfering with it, it would cure better.
For example, anti-discrimination laws. The government is telling me I have to serve certain people at my private restaurant (hypothetical, I don't own a restaurant). That's a blatant disregard for my individual liberties. If I don't want to serve certain people, I don't have to. People will stop coming to my restaurant and I'll go out of business or people will keep coming and I won't. But you don't get to come up with an idea in your head of how the world should be and force me into that vision.
Second, right-to-repair. I'm not an expert on it, but whatever arrangement you voluntarily made with the company should stand. If you leased a phone from them in an arrangement where you don't own it, they get to tell you what you can do with it. If you own the product, the company can take a hike.
If I don't want to serve certain people, I don't have to. People will stop coming to my restaurant and I'll go out of business or people will keep coming and I won't
Maybe some people will come and sit in your restaurant and they won't leave, or they'll sit in the wrong section of your bus where you don't want them, and you'll want the government to come defend your property rights or sanction your violence, and people will wonder why their tax money is going to defend your practices, there might be riots in the streets, and we will have civil rights reform.
It wouldn't need to be law if it wasn't contentious, and it wouldn't need to be law if there was a nice free market alternative so what's the big deal anyway. Fact is that we have history, people were being systematically discriminated against and they weren't gonna sit there and not be let into restaurants despite your absolute right to your property. So there was a compromise, erosion of property rights in favor of anti-discrimination rights.
you don't get to come up with an idea in your head of how the world should be and force me into that vision
I don't, of course. But equally so you don't get to force your idea that property rights/'individual liberties' as you conceive them are the end-all-be-all onto everyone else, nor the idea that so long as something makes money in a 'free' market it is moral.
Right to repair
The issues here basically deal with monopolies and industry-level regulation. You have something that the consumers really want, but that would cost all the producers in the industry a lot of money in a clear race to the bottom. Even without explicit coordination the industry will collude to keep prices high or equivalently restrict features. So classic economics, you want to trust-bust such that the consumers get the best possible product without rents going to the producing cartel ... unless of course you believe in voluntary agreements above all etc.
and people will wonder why their tax money is going to defend your practices
They shouldn't wonder. It's the protection of my private property, a good function of the police, no?
It wouldn't need to be law if it wasn't contentious
That's a nice way of saying we'll force people to act a certain way because we like it that way
and it wouldn't need to be law if there was a nice free market alternative
There's nice free market alternative for wedding cakes, but that seems to be an issue currently, doesn't it?
force your idea that property rights/'individual'liberties'.... are the end-all-be-all
Well, it's hard to view me as "forcing" my ideas on others when I'm literally advocating that everyone be free to make their own choices. And private property rights are pretty much the foundation of society, so there's that too.
In response to your last paragraph, industry-level regulation and trust-busting is government intervention, so no not in favor.
In sum, you're willing to throw away private property rights because it makes you feel better to force people to be "more inclusive and non-discriminatory."
It's not even that I disagree with those social values, but your willingness to force your values on others is reprehensible.
>part of the reason why freedom of expression only affects the government is because only the government was really in a position to have a monopoly on power over speech.
The entire constitution only effects the government. The bill of rights is simply a document that states rights that American citizens have. The government has to consult the document before they impose laws to make sure they don't infringe on those rights.
The bill of rights is a list of rules that the US government has to follow and no one else.
Well freedom of speech/expression has similar definitions and applications within other nations. And as I've highlighted in another comment, the First Amendment doesn't define Freedom of Speech, and only says congress can't restrict it. It doesn't say explicitly that congress can't pass laws to ensure it is being upheld. (Again a disclaimer, I'm not a constitional lawyer, and I know that's probably simplistic, so apologies if I have it wrong, and don't take me for an expert)
An extension of upholding the spirit of the first ammendment, if one takes that spirit as being 'freedom of speech for all' not just 'freedom of speech for all from the government'.
It's a weaker argument than I thought it was when I first made it however.
Well the rights given to you are inalienable right? Shouldn't that extend beyond just the government if sources other than the government threaten them?
Well said. This is the heart of the issue and the true aspect that the majority don't seem to understand. Especially in countries where corporations, media, and government are so in bed with each other. To describe free speech as simply a contract between an individual and their government suggests extreme ignorance in how important true free speech is to a functioning society.
Blame corporate personhood, and the fact that those companies you mentioned have their own rights to represent themselves how they want, and that includes firing employees who express views they don't want associated with them.
What? They are private businesses, and the people who own them can do with them whatever they want so long as they don't interfere with the rights of others. You do not have a right to use Facebook however you want.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:52:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No it can't. If Facebook removes what you said, you have a million other ways to spread your message. You would be infringing on the rights of whoever owns facebook of the state were to force facebook to publish your message.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:08:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You have social media, like facebook, twitter and youtube, where your speech goes on the record perminently on the record, and is used by practically everyone in the nation. And the powers to moderate that kind of speech and information is within private hands.
And just about every one of those has a Terms of Use agreement that you have to abide by in exchange for usage of their service. They created it, they marketed it, they curate it - they have total control over that entity, not you.
They're private services - you have no rights to walk into a physical establishment and say/do whatever you want. The same goes for those services - you elected to participate and you agreed that they have full control over their sandbox. If you dislike that, you're welcome to not use them. The same goes for subreddits. If you don't like the limitations on one sub, go to another or create your own.
The other reason that this falls apart is the core motivator: visibility. It is not a right - assumed or expressed - to be able to co-opt popular spaces or services just to express yourself. If you're using a services or page that you did not create, you have no control over how it is moderated.
Okay, I concede all that, given that is the current legality of the situation.
So hypothetical: Do you think there is ever a proportion of total human commications that platforms like facebook could have occur on them, that an argument could be made that they should be treated like public forums?
I know that is not the case currently, but do you think that if these sites had such a high level of communications occur on them ,that it should become the case?
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 22:50:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So hypothetical: Do you think there is ever a proportion of total human commications that platforms like facebook could have occur on them, that an argument could be made that they should be treated like public forums?
Not unless they're created and maintained by the government. Outside of that, only if they're independently hosted, and even then, they're subject to the whims of the overseer.
I know that is not the case currently, but do you think that if these sites had such a high level of communications occur on them ,that it should become the case?
So, you don't support net neutrality? You're suggesting that if something becomes popular enough, that it should be seized from the creator.
I don't know my opinion on net neutrality, I've not read enough into it to feel like I can adequately form one.
I'm not advocating for that idea, I'm more curious as to your opinion on it. My gut tells me, despite supposing that argument to you, that no, that should not be the case.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 03:08:30 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
The online venues that people have created, monetized, and promoted may be in widespread use - but that is due to the work that went into making them "the" place to be seen and heard.
While it may be frustrating to not have free reign over those popular spaces, it's perfectly acceptable. Attempting to dictate how those private entities should operate is not a winning proposal. If you want to use them, you must use them in the way in which those entities dictate they are to be used. If that is distasteful, then you must seek out another alternative.
The problem with alternatives is - they don't have the visibility or the audience.
So I had this discussion with someone else on the thread, and I'm curious as to what you think of it:
Is the act of forcing someone away from a large audience to a small audience a lesser act of censorship? If instead of speaking to a crowd of millions, you are only allowed to speak to a crowd of dozens say.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 12:46:29 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Is the act of forcing someone away from a large audience to a small audience a lesser act of censorship?
The premise is a little off - If you're using a non-US governmental platform for expression of an idea ("speech") and that platform exercises it's right to silence that expression for whatever reason, then this indirectly forces the communicator of that idea to seek out a new platform. That platform will likely have a smaller audience - particularly if it is new, niche, or otherwise not as popular as the first platform. (ex: Facebook suspends/bans your account, so you seek out a WordPress blog or something more free-form.)
That popular platform has invested time and resources to encourage and cultivate activity and connectivity between users. Basically, if you are visible on a high-activity platform, it's due to the processes that the platform creators have implemented to develop that visibility and connectivity. When that platform becomes a daily-use activity, it is successful. When you express controversial opinions using that platform, you are capitalizing on the work of someone else to use their platform in a way that they may or may not have intended or approved of. And again, if it's not under the control of a US-government entity, they are within their rights to moderate as they deem necessary or appropriate to their vision for their platform.
So - you're forced to seek out another platform. Yes, that platform may be less restrictive, but it also means that you're on your own when it comes to attracting an audience. You have to get the word out, you have to compel people to intentionally visit your space in that platform, you have to provide content that people will willfully and intentionally seek out and consume. The reason that this is an issue is that people are inherently lazy online - they want to do as little as possible for the most reward.
Large platforms allow communicators to express an idea in drive-by fashion - they just throw it out there and they have a built in audience by way of the platform and it's mechanics (followers, friends, subscribers, etc.) These are people who have - for whatever reason - agreed to a connection with you based on one particular premise. When you exploit that connection for an unrelated purpose (communication of controversial or unpopular opinions), you create a problem. Those people who disagree with your idea can separate themselves from you, or they can become combative with you (depends on both parties). Sure, you can also develop a community of support around that idea, and that causes a change to your followers, friends, subscribers as well.
So, by nature, you've already created a situation where your audience self-filters based on what they like or don't like. Reddit is a good example - no matter how many niche political subs pop up, or what ideas they express repeatedly, I will never see them unless I seek them out purposefully. I have customized my user experience to ignore or avoid all of those kinds of posts and communities because I choose to. And there's nothing that a passionate, activist user can do to force me to listen to their idea. That's a choice and it's one I should not be prevented from making and fulfilling. The same goes for protesters who fill public streets on a whim. I may not care about their cause, I may fully support their cause - but their cause is irrelevant to me if I'm attempting to go about my life in my chosen way and they are preventing me from doing so because they consider their idea more important than my personal freedoms. That's not okay.
And that's the point - you cannot force anyone to listen to your opinion if they choose not to. You can express it, and venues can dictate where and when that's okay with them, but only the US government and it's systems can grant you full permission to express yourself in a way that cannot be silenced. This means that, if your venue for expression creates a hazard for yourself and others, the government can step in and take corrective action. (Such as blocking highways for visibility.)
And even if you find yourself before a crowd of millions - there is nothing preventing each individual from choosing whether to ignore you or not. You have no ability to force anyone to pay attention to you. The same goes for online - you cannot force someone to endure something that they have no interest in. You also cannot decry a private platform for making a decision regarding your ability to express that opinion on their platform.
Freedom of speech only prevents the government from punishing a citizen for expressing an idea. It does not guarantee anyone the ability to say what they want, where they want, without consequence (last part is broad and contains exceptions.) You can say what you want...you just can't force anyone to listen, and you certainly can't force them to agree with you.
Except Twitter doesn't censor anything unless it goes against their terms of service. You can voice any opinion you want. If that changes we might have a problem but for now it's working just fine.
To add onto this: the first amendment doesn't define what "free speech" is. A company/platform could support free speech on their platform, which is valid. I've seen too many times where someone says "no you idiot, freedom of speech just means that the government can't stop you from saying things." No, freedom of speech is a concept that exists outside of the first amendment and can be supported outside of that context.
Deep down, it doesn't matter WHY we have the laws that we do. What I care about is whether or not the laws we have are appropriate for upholding justice.
To me, not allowing the government to censor speech makes sense whereas not allowing private companies to censor speech on their own products does not.
To say that there needs to be a conversation is possibly misleading because there actually is lots of conversation about this topic already. Maybe instead you should say there needs to be MORE conversation?
1) Doesn't it? I would have thought laws are in place for a reason, let's say in general to protect civil liberties. I would have thought it's important to be able to look at a law, and why the law was first go in place and go 'yes, it is good this law is in place', rather than just assuming it is implace for justice. Effectively, just being a skeptic.
2). Well we are in agreement there as things currently stand. My worry is that it gets more blurry the larger influence the private interest has in the world. Ultimately, if a corporation had more power than the government, wouldn't we want it to be regulated for our sake like government is?
3) Yeah, probably. But I usually don't see the conversation being that thought out. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong places though? It's pretty likely I am.
In the past control of printing presses, radio networks, and TV news was a far more limiting means of controlling speech. There are actually more competing venues than ever.
Which is how nutjobs like Alex Jones can persist so well.
An addendum on that is that digital speech can be changed at will (see the Spez incident). While that was (relatively) minor, what's to prevent Reddit or Facebook from changing all your posts to say you're a serial killer? There's nothing in the TOS (that I'm aware of) that makes your digital footprint uneditable by its owners (FB/Google/Reddit/etc.)
Likewise, what's to prevent the FBI/NSA/CIA (or the Chinese, Russian, Israeli, or Canadian version) to change your posts, or make those photos you deleted suddenly visible?
That is beyond scary.
Freedom of speech should work in all environments, but what happens when your speech gets changed?
All of this presumes some kind of value in getting online and explaining, IDK, why black people aren't oppressed or why women actually are inferior to men or some such bullshit. There's no value in any of that.
I'm not trying to be dense, and I get what you're saying. But I think what feeds this argument is this line of thinking like "who says you have a right to be offended just because I got on here and said something I'd get shitcanned for saying at work."
The same reason you'd get shitcanned at work still applies here.
This is a hard point to articulate, or I'm finding it to be at the moment. But there's an air among people who claim that forums shouldn't moderate and that the internet should be fair game, on whatever private service, for any kind of speech only leads to maladjusted people being derisive and churlish.
What I'm saying is, there's a perfectly clear reason to have our current 1st amendment protection: to protect us from sedition laws, and to keep an essentially all-powerful body from punishing our bodies over our speech (outside of some exceptions, which is important to note).
There's no similar thing going on in online forums. You can see why a nation's people should be able to speak out against the government and the good that can do...think of the Declaration and the bit about dissolving an unjust government, etc.
Your physical body is not under any kind of jeopardy as per the whims of the "all powerful" Reddit admins. And where is the justice in having people say racist or sexist shit online? That's what I can't get my head past. So many people ardently defend other people's supposed right to be assholes online. There's no good being done there. What is the point of fighting for someone's right to be an asshole?
The specific arguments I've seen to this are just nonsense. It's people playing fast and loose with objectivity/subjectivity, moving goal posts, and so on.
My main point here is that the principles behind many of these laws and concepts assume that people are working toward some positive good and protect against infringement on that pursuit by a powerful government that may be opposed to doing good.
Most internet free speech warriors are doing something like the opposite. And if you're impressed with an "but who's to say what's good or bad speech" argument, then, like whoa, man, whoa, right back at you, but I'm not impressed by that kind of logic. It's fairly easy to determine.
Well it's more than just that right. People should have the right to be offensive, because it's subjective as to what someone will be offended by. It's the same with hate speech and racism, what it constitutes is almost purely subjective compared to physical abuse. So I don't see why that should be censored, because the natural extension of that kind of censorship is gradually more and more and more opposing ideas to whomever is defining 'hate' gets censored.
I am of the opinion that freedom of speech is ultimately about the free exchange of ideas, and that speech should be as free as possible to abet that. If one is constantly worried about offending someone else, eventually you can't say anything of meaning. And that's just dull.
People should have the right to be an arsehole, because sometimes you need to be an arsehole to get an idea heard. And again, because what defines being an arsehole is subjective. There will still be societal norms that mean most people will be nice and cordial, but we shouldn't stop peoples rights to be controversial.
You'll probably have a different idea on that, and I don't think I've be as succinct as I could be. Just suppose say, saying 'I like coke, not pepsi' was a controversial opinion. Would you be in favour of censoring that opinion? It's literally just an opinion, it isn't doing harm, it might offend you, but that's not legal basis for censorship.
I completely disagree with everything you say in the first paragraph. That's exactly what I'm arguing against. It's nihilism, not some kind of new libertarian view of the world. There's a pretty clear consensus on what is or is not considered decent in the realm of the general discourse. The internet even affords the right to go outside of that discourse and have a different space to engage freely with whatever vile stuff a person has to say.
But Reddit and Social Media are business who don't want to offer that particular service for an obvious reason. The negative press is not helpful to their business model. That's the entire long and short of it.
So, of course it is subjective to consider the degree of offense a person takes. It's also subjective to have laws, some medical designations, politics, arts, culture, anything that isn't a direct representation of the physical world, like a specimen.
A person can't be objective in the way that people who don't quite understand the whole subjective/objective concept seem to think. There is no cold blooded objective person. Because a person has self-interest, it isn't objective even in the sense that the term usually implies. But applying it to the behavior of a person is really pointless because a person making a choice is the crux of what "subjective" means, so any choice that we make is subjective. All of them, in a sense. Of course we largely agree what "I made an objective decision" means but it's still a subjective, abstract concept that needs interpretation to understand. "I made the more practical choice."
I don't see this "being an asshole to get an idea heard" thing you speak of. That notion gets pushed all the time but doesn't occur in objective reality. Instead, people say things they know will offend people in order to offend people. That behavior in and of itself is why societies have constructed rules to make subjective opinion codified into objective reality, sort of.
And so, no, some one trying to offend me to try to offend me is an irritation I would prefer Reddit not encourage. If they can stop people from doing it, great. I've been moderated for crossing lines in arguments before and I could always accept that what I'd said crossed a line that there was no good reason to cross.
But what about the efforts of social media to silence more conservative views points because they are deemed controversial? Not because they are being outright arseholes, but because they have opinions that run against the popular narrative and thus cause distress.
I probably should have clarified; I didn't mean be an arsehole just for the sake of being an arsehole right. Defending someones rights to call you say, 'A catholic whore' is not why I want to defend it (I believe it still should be legal to do so, but as an extension of the rest of it). If say, I wanted to voice the opinion 'Racism doesn't exist in modern society', a lot of people would probably be very outraged, would think I'm being hateful or some such. But if I can defend my viewpoint on that position in a rational manner, why shouldn't I be able to voice it, even if it runs against the grain of common opinion and what is deemed cordial?
It's less about 'I should be able to voice my opinions in a way that crosses the line' and more 'I should be able to voice my opinion even when that opinion crosses the line'.
I think... Maybe people are misusing the word objective, I don't know. But I think the difference between the offence and other forms of 'personal injury' is that there's nothing empirical about the harm done. Whilst laws are to some extent subjective, within a court of law, one relies of empirical proof of evidence. This is true for existing limitations on speech, slander and libel, one has to prove damages. What, if it deals with the realm of emotional distress, can be empirical here?
And how would you draw the line here? What stops the line encroaching ever inwards? Or in theory stops the government, once these laws are in place, defining the policies of there political enemies from falling on the wrong side of the line?
And I agree with you, there are societal norms that mean most of the time people don't go around just saying awful things for the sake of them being awful. But I don't think we need to legally enshrine those norms.
I don't buy into the "we are living in such unique times!" argument. When one or two rich people owned all the printing presses wasn't that pretty similar?
One of the reasons I believe that google/FB/Twitter are so reluctant to monitor or enforce a lot of their rules is they don't want to give up their standing as "the marketplace of ideas". In fact, there is probably more competition for that role than ever before.
When one or two people own the printing presses, they had a monopoly on printed ideas, yes. But it is to what extent those printed ideas were shared amongst the population that is the distinction here.
I may have my time periods wrong, but I think most of the nation was illterate when the printing press was first a thing, so it was somewhat more limited just by that.
Okay, but you can use the same logic for the news networks. NBC news etc. It's a different medium, but the story is pretty similar. If anything, the conversation platforms have more competition now: Google, FB, Twitter, (whatever they have in China, Reddit....
Also, has there been anything in history easier for the spread of ideas than email sharing?
It's similar for information, but not necessarily exchange of ideas. I don't think news networks had the same kind of discussion space that facebook or reddit does say. Or the freedom to upload your own content like youtube. Not do I think they were as pervasive to life, so I don't think they are direct parallels but I may be wrong.
Of course not. Never going to be exact. New technologies will always create differences, but we currently have as much, or more competition in terms of hosting and spreading speech/conversations/ideas than possibly ever before.
So what if say, all of those sources of competition wound up sharing either the same ownership, or the same operating ideologies? And thus depriving you of meaningful choice?
How do you think that would affect the argument that 'you can go to another platform'?
so if there was a "real monopoly" on internet conversations? I would want it be handled the same way as any other "crucial services" monopoly was. The reason we have choice of cell providers today is because we broke up a telecom monopoly. So if google bought twitter and FB bought reddit, and google and FB started colluding as to their Terms of Service in a way that limited certain types of speech, I would probably have a problem. Still not entirely sure though, because that is basically exactly what the news networks were at the beginning. If they did that, they'd be opening up the door to an upstart competitor or another medium.
Hey, im not an academic or massive history buff or anything but i like reading and have always wanted to find out about the crusades. You sound like someone who could recommend me a good book to get started, any suggestions? If its fictional and good as well as being informative that'd be good but non-fiction is fine also. I mostly read scifi and jack reacher so nothing too heavy i guess or i will probably bounce off. As an example of my poor ability to concentrate on lengthy texts, i got about 4 lines in to your comment and got distracted by the idea of writing this reply! Suggestions would be much appreciated, thank you!
Well I didn't do that much crusades stuff in all honestly, only a 6th form course of it. So I can only really cover bits of the first crusade, and I've no idea what to recommend on it xD
For dry academic literature on the Crusades, Steven Runcimans history of the crusades is the best thing I know of. But again, it's dry academic literature.
And....that's about it. Aside from saying try youtube for some summaries, you might get lucky. Sorry I can't be more help.
When you sign up for a social media platform, you explicitly agree to their terms of service. If you do not agree with how the company will treat your speech, you are under no obligation to use that platform.
The first amendment means that Nazis can start their own website, it does not mean that anyone else has to host them on theirs or give them a platform. You don't see the New York Times giving columns to the KKK for the sake of freedom of the press. Web site operators have a moral obligation to ban and silence hate speech and hate groups. Online communities are a reflection of the rules and behavior their admins allow or punish - this is obvious to anyone who has spent any significant amount of time with a few online communities.
Even implicit in your comment is the idea that the public has some kind of right or entitlement to use and access social media platforms, just because they've become a big deal, which is nonsense. You have the right to speak, not a right to a louder microphone. The people who created the sites and services own them and they have the right to allow or disallow anyone or anything they want on them. Don't like it? Start your own damn website. Censorship is something the government does to the people. When it happens on private platforms, between private citizens, it's merely exercising your rights. You don't have the right to place your political signs in someone else's yard, they have the right to stop you.
The word 'censorship' has lost its meaning in the modern age. We need a different word to distinguish between censorship that violates your rights and "censorship" that is merely one person exercising their right to moderate what is on their property.
The public has taken privately owned and operated web services for granted like spoiled children, and that is the face of the rampant populism we are currently embroiled in. Where the racists, bigots and extremists have finally achieved what they always wanted - their radical rhetoric becoming accepted in the mainstream. They even have the white house now. And a large part of that is the internet's abuse and distortion of the concept of free speech.
If your only defense of your speech is that it's illegal to stop you, you probably don't have a very good argument.
[deleted] · 440 points · Posted at 16:50:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In all fairness, the 1st amendment is there to protect unpopular speech. It's not there to protect popular speech, which typically doesn't need protection. The 1st amendment is so valuable because it allows these people to have opinions that 99% of people would have an issue with.
On the other hand, I would say it is even more so to protect speech that is unwanted by the government. If you think of the 1984 example, the government is making a given idea appear unpopular by not allowing anyone to voice it. It doesn't matter how popular an unwanted idea is if no one can share the idea or know that anyone else agrees with them.
It was designed to protect speakers from legal punishment. Police are only involved to protect, say the KKK, from the masses because they are there to keep the peace and prevent a riot, not to make sure the bigots get to spew their propaganda.
That's a really good distinction. Police at rallies are protecting the peace, not protecting the participants. Who they are protecting from what could really go either way.
The kkk by definition cannot peacefully assemble. They exist to assault the persons and rights of minorities. Goes triple when they come armed to their "peaceful" assemblies. You think cops would protect an isis rally in America?
If cops don't protect a non-violent group of ISIS sympathizers from an angry mob while they protest whatever bullshit they interpreted from the deepest corners of their holy book, then the police aren't doing their job. You don't have to support the idea but the freedom of speech is not limited to benign statements. Cops looking the other way when a rock comes flying into the face of the speaker is understandable, but still a failure to protect.
Now, consider if the group was trying to whip the listeners into some kind of violent action, then they are breaking laws for inciting violence or something along those lines (IANAL) but their right to say things are still protected by the first amendment even if the police themselves disagree.
We aren't talking about freedom of speech though when it comes to the kkk assembling. We are talking about right to peaceful assembly. If the purpose of the speech or idea you have the freedom to think (not act on) is an inherently violent one, how does one peacefully assemble? You're inciting violence by the definition of your assembly. It's not a peaceful assembly from the start.
Say your shitty violent things. Think your shitty violent things. But doing it in a crowd of a thousand armed and like minded individuals is no assembly. It's an army.
If you are talking about the crowd being armed, then we aren't talking about the same thing and in your example, it becomes a pre-firefight rally. It's like a football team's pregame hype speech but with guns and killing.
I don't think we are disagreeing, but we aren't talking about the same kind of gathering
My reference to being armed for their assembly was specifically for the nazi rally that just took place in Virginia. That is, as I said in my original reply, not even something defensible in my opinion.
Shit, those bigoted fucks were armed during that rally? I don't know law well enough to say if the 1st amendment and the 2nd can have that kind of overlap when the topic is hateful. Things get real blurry and I would be inclined to call in the Guard and have them at the ready in case any rally attendees think want to get trigger-happy.
A hate speech to a bunch of armed people is about as tense a situation as I can imagine without bullets actually flying.
the government is making a given idea appear unpopular by not allowing anyone to voice it. It doesn't matter how popular an unwanted idea is if no one can share the idea or know that anyone else agrees with them.
Considering just how much communication is happening through various forms of social media now, you could easily swap "the government" in your statement with Google/Facebook/Twitter/YouTube/Tumblr/Reddit and it still makes sense.
While they have the right to remove whatever they want from their websites, that doesn't mean that hiding anything that doesn't agree with their Silicone Valley/SF Bay Area sensibilities is a good idea. Just because it's not the government performing the censorship doesn't mean it's not censorship.
True. It really means that we have to be intelligent users of social media and interact with it as a corporation with their own interests in mind, even though the face we see is of our friends and acquaintances.
Exactly. So many opinions modern society takes for granted (such as equality) were hugely unpopular at one point. Imagine how far those efforts would have gone without freedom of speech!
That's not true. It has nothing to do with popularity. It's about the government silencing viewpoints it doesn't want to spread. It's only about the government suppressing speech and opinions. Nothing to do
With popularity.
[deleted] · 19 points · Posted at 18:01:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well when you have a government of elected officials voted in for by the majority, it's hard to really point out any obvious difference between the two. Government makes laws and silences viewpoints in the behalf of their constituents on America. The viewpoints they would suppress are almost never those of the majority.
[deleted] · -9 points · Posted at 19:33:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
We live in a Representative democracy(assuming you are from the U.S.) and by definition the "representatives vote on behalf of the people." In practice this doesn't always happen because the system is not perfect. So as you can see he is not making any logic leap.
Also, if you could keep the ad hominems to a minimum it would greatly help your credibility.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 20:42:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If a elected official holds unpopular opinions in conflict with their constituents they would be in jeopardy of not getting reelected. So if they want to get reelected (as in not get fired) they have to hold opinions that are representative of their constituents.
Thus if a majority of constituents want to silence a specific view point (see people against nazism) wouldn't it track that their elected official would try to silence that viewpoint?
regendo · 3 points · Posted at 19:00:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's not really what beep is saying though. Speech can be very unpopular but still be backed by some form of argument, at the very least a flawed argument. If you immediately jump to "well it's not illegal for me to say this" instead of trying to defend it with those arguments, it looks like you acknowledge that your speech is just worthless junk not backed by any arguments at all.
Kered13 · 1 points · Posted at 21:10:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The people trying to shut down speech they don't approve of aren't usually listening to rational arguments in the first place.
blewws · 5 points · Posted at 17:38:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This. My Uncle was so completely opposed to having that mosque/community center built near ground zero. Along with various racist arguments ("Muslims always build a mosque on locations they've conquered!") He said "besides, so many people are against it. That should be enough reason to not do it." It's funny how much of a patriot he considers himself too
No, it's there to protect speech the government doesn't want you to say. That's not necessarily unpopular.
[deleted] · 15 points · Posted at 17:47:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Of course it doesn't have to be unpopular, but in most instances it is. Freedom of speech is usually something that protects minority groups from the majority oppressing their opinions.
BillW87 · -6 points · Posted at 17:52:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Except that's really not what it is there for. It is there to protect the people from the government, period. It's not there to protect the people from other people. Unpopular speech is still by definition unpopular, and freedom from government censure is not meant to protect you from the consequences of your own speech as determined by your peers (within the confines of the law).
The 1st amendment is so valuable because it allows these people to have opinions that 99% of people would have an issue with.
Only if we look at the word "allows" to mean "not get thrown in jail by the government". People who hold beliefs that are truly unpopular and/or toxic can still face very real consequences for the quality of their speech to the point that it will directly or indirectly affect their willingness to express their legal freedom of speech.
-Edit- For any of those who are downvoting me, please feel free to test your "freedom of speech" by dropping the N word at your place of employment. I think you will find that while you are quite free to do so and will not be jailed, there is a strong possibility that you will face some consequences for the quality of your speech including likely losing your job. Freedom of choice is not freedom from consequence. All that the first amendment does is guarantee your basic legal right (with a few very select exceptions) to speak freely. It does not protect you from the societal consequences for doing so, nor is it intended to.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 17:53:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Who is our government elected by? The majority. They typically aren't censoring themselves in America.
BillW87 · 3 points · Posted at 18:07:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
While the first amendment does as a byproduct prevent the majority from using the government as a vehicle to suppress the opinion of the minority, that's not the intended purpose of it. It was crafted as a means to protect the people from government oppression. A look at the other 9 amendments in the Bill of Rights makes it clear what the intention of 1A was. It's nice that 1A also serves a role in protecting the people from the people, but it is first and foremost a check on the power of government over the people. A quick glance at the rest of the BoR makes it obvious:
1A: Protects the people against government censure
2A: Establishment of an armed populace
3A: Civilians cannot be compelled to house soldiers
4A: Protection against unreasonable search and seizure
5A: Protection of Rights to Life, Liberty, and Property
6A: Rights of Accused Persons in Criminal Cases
7A: Rights in Civil Cases
8A: Protection against unreasonable punishment by the government
9A: Other Rights Kept by the People
10A: Undelegated Powers Kept by the States and the People
tl;dr The 1A is far too often misconstrued as being meant to serve the role of protecting minority opinions against majority opinions. That was not and is not the intention of the 1A. It is meant to protect you from your own government and to be a check against its power, just like the other 9 amendments in the BoR. The majority is still well within their legal rights as long as they otherwise obey the law to ostracize, shun, boycott, or otherwise make life difficult for those who hold unpopular opinions. The freedom of speech is not a freedom from consequence.
I'd argue the first amendment is mostly there and valuable because it serves to protect popular speech that poses a risk to those in power, not unpopular speech in and of itself.
I'd argue most of its value comes from allowing 90% of people to hold an opinion 10% disagrees with, even when the 10% are the ones deciding what the law is gonna be and how its gonna be enforced - because those 90% have enough power to change who the 10% are.
It's value is actually significantly less in terms of positions that are inherently marginal and have no social traction, its the ones that are popular or at least potentially popular that it really serves to protect.
This got upvoted??? Tell that to civil rights protesters in the 60s. Tell that to gay right activists 8n the 80s. Tell that to Vietnam protesters in the 70s.
But if what they're saying is true, then they should be able to defend their argument in more ways than just "it's not technically illegal for me to say this."
Usually they are saying it's not illegal in response to people who are saying things like, 'I will punch you in the face for saying that' or 'We don't want people who say that around here, get lost'. Not debating the actual ideas, just how punished one should be for having the thought.
[deleted] · 25 points · Posted at 17:29:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Do you though? Or do you use "admitting defeat" to actually mean 'shouldn't be allowed to say that since we already know it's wrong'? I ask because I've seen a lot of the latter recently.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:49:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The first amendment doesn't exist so you can share your grandmother's chocolate cake recipe. It exists so you can say controversial things that people don't want to hear.
[deleted] · 9 points · Posted at 17:31:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Unless you're arguing with thought nazis. Those who believe all your rights are forfeit because of your badthink, will have to deal with why your speech is legally protected in some cases.
That can be a good argument.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:20:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No, it just means your views of the world are irreconcilable. If the_Donald thinks that people shouldn't be allowed to disrespect the President, I'll be damned if I have to convince them that he deserves the name "Cheeto Benito". Free speech is my only line of defense in their eyes, but that doesn't make me wrong.
ghip94 · 4 points · Posted at 17:35:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Similarly, if your only argument is punching them in the face you probably don't have a very good argument.
Kered13 · 1 points · Posted at 21:16:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is the "If you have value your privacy then you must have something to hide" of free speech. It sickens me to see how popular it has become these days. When people come to shut down your speech, they aren't going to be listening to arguments, no matter how good they are.
There is a definite issue nowadays where the so called 'social repurcussions' and criticisms go from simple critiques in the marketplace of ideas to out and out censorship.
Im not going to defend James Demore's manifesto or even Google firing him - they are within their rights to do that. But the social vilification on twitter is a determined effort to disenfranchise a man who's crime was not being able to converse his (admittedly not complexly researched) ideas fully.
I think Google firing him was a mistake for 2 reasons. 1, it made him a martyr to his cause and kept him in the news cycle where his firing was the main event and 2, it made it that much harder for scientists to weigh in on the issue and civil responses to be issued that made it clear he was misinformed or disingenuous.
Perhaps it was best for PR reasons, but to be honest, the news cycle goes so quickly, i believe Demore would have been left behind.
He seems like an intelligent person, who may well have responded well to a civil debate - instead, it was deemed prudent to determine that he was an active danger who's 'free speech' hindered women's advancement in IT. I've heard the idea advanced that some people's free speech can limit others - for example promoting anti-trans free speech makes it less safe for trans folk to promote their community. My retort to that is 'we need to stop being afraid of nazis'. As much as the harry potter books are for children, they do contain a useful nugget of truth here and there; the relevant one being 'Fear of the name makes the fear of that thing that much more real.'
If we are to live in a liberal western democracy, then the fear of nazism, right wing populism, authoritarianism needs to be brought to the fore where bad ideas can be debunked in a public setting. Far from keeping richard spencer underground where he can fester, perhaps we can do what Hitchens did with Kurt Metzger in the 90's and slowly, methodically and humerously destroy each and every one of their ideas in a simple debate. Sunlight disinfected Milo and certainly will disinfect the spencers and dukes of the world. Part means we have a responsibility to be informed, be resourceful, determined and without mercy. But always be accurate and then when their fist extends, they have lost the argument and we can fight for real.
Alex470 · 1 points · Posted at 18:28:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Uhh...no? Definitely no. It's pretty concerning your comment has as much support as it does.
Are you kidding? You think it would be limited to a fine from the government? How about dissenters in the USSR or Germany back in the day that would simply disappear, or be forced into slave labor camps? That's what people worry about from the government...
I Think I'd first rather not be put in jail or killed.
When you spoke out against Stalin or King Henry the 8th or something, they didn't issue a stiff fine and send you on your way.
But I think you're missing the intention here. The 1st Amendment or any rules on free speech protect you from Government punishment over your right to speak.
They were never intend, nor should they ever be intended, to protect you from criticism or the consequences of how other people react to your message.
You can't tell a bunch of individual people they can't dislike you for the things you say and express.
You have the right to express it, and they have the right to react to it as long as it's not violent.
You can't tell a bunch of individual people they can't dislike you for the things you say and express. You have the right to express it, and they have the right to react to it as long as it's not violent.
It does go further than that. Not only do they criticize you, they go out of their way to ruin your life and your livelihood. There are many examples of societal witchhunts directed against people for saying what is socially deemed to be wrong - these people get harassed, their lives are threatened, they get fired and they remain social pariahs for the rest of their lives.
This distinction between Government and society has become worthless, because the majority of society, due to technology, has become very efficient at shutting down unwanted speech by themselves. The government doesn't even need to censor anything anymore, society does that by itself now - but without any due process or sense of proportion.
There is no right to free speech, when the majority will ruin your life for exercising it.
They can't shut down the speech, they can make it so there are consequences for that speech.
You can say it, no one can stop you from saying it.
But yes of course you can be fired for it, of course your life can be ruined for it.
You can't go to a Neo-Nazi rally one day then go back to work at a daycare the next day.
No one can stop you from having those opinions or talking about them, but of course they can treat you like shit after you tell everyone you're a piece of shit.
There can't possibly be laws that say 'Not only can he say anything he wants...But also...no one is allowed to be upset and react to it'
Your employers has every right to fire you, your friends have every right to unfriend you, strangers have every right to ignore you or yell at you.
And you have every right to ignore that and say what you believe anyway.
They can't actually silence you, those Neo-Nazis got to do their march, no one can stop them. No one can stop them from printing out still white nationalist flyers and putting them on cars or standing on a corner with a swastika or whatever they do.
But you don't have to be nice to them, you don't have to employ them, you don't have to give them anything. You just can't stop them from speaking.
You proposing to 100% restrict the free rights of individuals to make decisions, that is insane.
You want to turn the whole country into a safe space.
It's not. there's consequences for you being an evil person.
It protects you from being arrested if you say "Black people are stupid," but it doesn't protect you from getting punched in the face because you pissed someone off.
Olli399 · 32 points · Posted at 17:43:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Of course I do?? I'm a triple double MMA WWE black belt.
I was just saying I like seeing a good fight. I don't fight people irl, nor do I want to. I just like seeing a good beat down, that's all. Is there anything wrong with that?
In light of recent events in C'ville, and their subsequent consequences (people getting fired, getting vilified, etc), I imagine (and hope) that a few more people have realized this distinction.
It's always the south you fuckers like to pick on. My brother in law didn't hear anything even remotely anti-Semitic until he went from Alabama to Nee York. You northern fuckers are just as bad, only difference is the accent.
I actually think the more common misconception is people like you thinking that people complaining about a lack of free speech on Reddit think that it is a legal obligation when they are really just talking about the values they think the site should pursue. Literally every time I bring up what I would prefer Reddit do I get 20 replies saying it's not legally required.
Think I'm wrong? Show me one comment where someone says free speech on Reddit is a legal requirement.
The reason the first amendment is admirable is because it supports and codifies the principle of free speech. Claiming to approve of one without supporting the other is just having your cake and eating it too. I don't understand how so many people can claim to believe that government censorship is wrong but give a complete free pass to any form of social censorship simply because it's 'not illegal'. If you believe in freedom of speech, that belief should extend to the behavior of your friends and neighbors just as well as the government. Saying you think a person should have the right to speak their mind then doing everything in your power to make sure they are ostracized and marginalized for doing so is like saying alcohol should be legal then fighting to make sure no bars are ever allowed to open. The government is made up of people, and if you think the government shouldn't suppress speech, it should be because you believe a person shouldn't suppress another person's speech. The first amendment isn't some legal technicality, it's a fundamental tenet of the American liberal idea based in the knowledge that words are not harmful in and of themselves, and suppressing the expression of an idea does not suppress the idea itself. If you don't believe in that then you don't believe in the spirit of the first amendment either, you're just paying lip service to a piece of paper.
If it makes you feel any better, the Freedom or Religion arguments were pretty much the same 50 years ago:
"Oh sure, you're free to be a Jew, but I'm free to fire you for being a Jew"
"Freedom of religion doesn't mean freedom from the consequences of your religious belief"
"Freedom of Religion just means the government won't lock you up for being a Jew, I'm still going to punch you in the face."
Our culture and principles caught up and now the idea of holding someone "accountable" for their religious beliefs is seen as backwards and bigoted. We'll get there.
Kered13 · 2 points · Posted at 21:20:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I was going to say something like this, but you've done it much better than I could. Thank you.
[deleted] · 4 points · Posted at 19:26:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
PREMISE - "The government is made up of people..."
THEREFORE,
IF - "... if you think..."
THIS - "... the government shouldn't suppress speech..."
THEN - "... it should be because..."
THAT - "... you believe a person shouldn't suppress another person's speech"
Do you disagree with the idea that words are not inherently harmful or with the idea that this is a tenet of American liberalism?
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 04:00:13 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I wrote a convoluted sentence which you claimed was illogical (without explaining how) so I clarified my point by breaking it into component parts and displaying how they fit together logically. I responded plainly and directly to your criticism and you claim I'm 'derailing' you.
Words are not inherently harmful, they can be insulting or offensive within certain contexts, but that's a matter of ideas, not the words themselves. Even that would require a loose definition of 'harmful', which is an matter of semantics, and only further emphasizes the importance of context.
The bedrock of American Enlightenment-inspired liberalism is that a person should be free to do as they wish so long as that freedom does not infringe on the freedom of others. Freedom of speech clearly does not qualify as such an exception, and has been defended by liberal thinkers consistently throughout the history of America. I don't see how you can deny that.
Someone tell that to all the people demanding Colin Kapernick play.
The guy's better than a few QBs on rosters, sure. But his baggage outweighs his productivity, so he isn't hired. It's a business. Marshawn Lynch has been doing it his whole career and he's a starter, because his talent outweighs his baggage.
I'd like to add that while others can use their rights to be rid of you I.E. Banning from private establishments, being shunned, denied private employment, they cannot violate your rights in return.
That's true, but that doesn't mean people can't express anger and dissatisfaction with private businesses that have policies that suppress free speech of their employees or customers.
[deleted] · 5 points · Posted at 16:49:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ugh, the mom of my older brother's son pulls this shit. She was going on and on on facebook about his drug use and mental illness. Since she was friends with my grandmother, we asked her not to, because it was upsetting her. Then we got rants about "people are infringing on my first amendment rights!" What a complete moron.
Free speech is more than a legal concept, and if we wanna stay on point with the topic, then I'd say that your post is a perfect example of a piece of common sense that is becoming very uncommon.
There is this fairly new meme that constantly gets spouted, that free speech applies only to the government. Not only does this ignore the spirit of the First Amendment, it implies that the rest of the amendments to the U.S. constitution should be equally ignored in the realm of social/private interaction. By your logic, cruel and unusual punishment is perfectly acceptable, provided it is not done by public officials.
You also completely ignore the concept of a chilling effect, when the social reaction to someone's speech can be exponentially worse than what the government is capable of inflicting upon someone, while also giving weight to the idea that the majority should be able to dictate the speech of everyone else. I have to wonder if you would feel the same 60 years ago, when people who spoke out in favor of civil rights were routinely harassed, shamed, and intimidated by members of their own communities, because their opinions were seen as "fucking stupid", as you so eloquently put it. Given the absolutely mind boggling amount of power that companies like Google, Facebook, and twitter have over the way in which people communicate, it should be a problem when they can dictate which ideas and opinions are "correct".
The "Free speech only applies to the government" argument is one that is only ever touted by people who have never held a controversial opinion in their lives, and who have never had to do anything more than go with whatever opinion was popular at the given moment. People like you are why the man who suggested that doctors wash their hands after handling dead bodies ended up being committed by his colleagues, for daring to suggest that doctors having dirty hands might be why so many newborn babies were dying of disease. People like you are why it took so long for blacks to be able to vote.
You have no concept of the deeper value in what it is that the Bill of Rights was founded upon. You fail to realize the inherent obligation that a society owes to itself to abide by the same rules it demands of its government. The worst of it all, is that like everyone else who repeatedly spouts off with this same exact phrase, you don't truly believe in it. You only support the notion, because you feel that you always have been, and always will be, in the right.
I think it's fair to point out that many countries have freedom of expression without it being a law, and many countries have hate speech laws as well.
On top of this I would add that people don't get that saying someone shouldn't be allowed to say something no matter how abhorrent means that you don't really believe in free speech, BUT THATS OKAY, you're allowed to not believe that free speech is the most important thing if you want.
But even though it really only protects you from the government that doesn't mean that you can't take legal recourse when someone violently opposes your opinion if you were peacefully exercising your rights. For example, if you are not actively provoking someone to attack you and they hit you because they don't like your opinion, that is assault and you can press charges.
"You have to sit here and listen to my opinion! I have freedom of speech!"
Your entitled to your opinion, but I don't have to listen to it.
djp1968 · 2 points · Posted at 17:05:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You beat me to the punch. As soon as I saw the question, before seeing your response, I posted this same answer, stated more generally. It is particularly timely in this day and age.
DrMux · 2 points · Posted at 17:36:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The First Amendment means that I, and ONLY I, can say and do whatever I want without consequence.
A good rule of thumb: your right ends where they infringe upon someone else's. Yeah, John, you can say racist shit, but you can't burn a fucking cross in your neighbor's yard.
bmerry1 · 2 points · Posted at 19:29:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequence.
Exactly, they (DC/Kaep) have the freedom to say what they want, and the people who put money in their pocket (album buyers/NFL owners) have the freedom to go disagree with what they said and not put money in their pocket
Yeah, this one. I always laugh when you read about some idiot tweeting racist/stupid stuff and then getting fired and complaining about their free speech being infringed upon.
Sort of related, but this reminds of the bakery in Arizona that wouldn't sell a cake to the lesbian couple. People went nuts over it, rightfully, but I don't think the law should be changed to force them to serve everybody.
Of course I wouldn't want any business to discriminate based on sexual orientation. But a bakery is not an essential service, so they should have the right to. And the part that people miss, is that the discriminated parties have the right to make it public, and those who hear or read about it have the right the tell others, and refuse to give them business. Simple word of mouth can jeopardize a business that engages in discrimination. The law should only step in when it involves something essential like healthcare, or maybe grocery stores since they can sell tax-exempt items. Any non-essential business should have the right to refuse to serve anyone, which comes with the right to be publicly scrutinized for it.
rjbman · 4 points · Posted at 18:53:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The difference here is that there are certain protected statuses (race, gender, and religion among them) that are illegal to discriminate against on that basis, here in the US of A.
adream1 · 10 points · Posted at 17:28:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
is it okay for that bakery to not serve black people? How would you react if I opened a restaurant for white people only?
MVWORK · 2 points · Posted at 18:20:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What if you have to serve everyone what you already have but you don't have make custom things for them? So a bakery has to serve cannolis to gay people but they don't have to make a wedding cake for them?
adream1 · 3 points · Posted at 18:26:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
As a business you can do that- you just can't discriminate- you can't make a wedding cake for heterosexual couple but not for homosexual couple, or a birthday cake for a white kid but not for a black kid.
You don't want to bake wedding cakes for gay couples or print political stuff (right or left policies) then you can do that by having your bakery not make wedding cakes at all, for straight and gay couple, or having your print press not print any political messages.
duphre · 3 points · Posted at 18:04:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You probably would these days. That doesn't address the moral issue at all, though. There was a time when segregated businesses thrived. Where was the righteous invisible hand of the market then? If there's enough prejudiced consumers in the surrounding community, discriminatory business do just fine.
duphre · 1 points · Posted at 19:35:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
True, that argument was more convincing a few decades ago before the internet and services like Amazon. In the rare occasion where a non white person is surrounded by bigoted whites that won't serve them, they'll have to vote with their feet (as in, leave the town full of bigots that hates non whites).
Amazon isn't a replacement for restaurants, coffee shops, bars, or any other businesses that are valuable for their social aspect--to say nothing about the insanity of the idea that marginalized groups should just stay inside and order everything they need off the internet.
And isn't "vote with your feet" based on the same premise as "if yew don't like it, boy, yew can get out the hell out of our town"?
duphre · 0 points · Posted at 20:33:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You are using some extreme example of an overtly racist town in order to reach your conclusions. American society is not like this. The South is probably the most integrated geographical region in the United States.
Voting with your feet is not some racist dog whistle as you implied. If a town is too racist to serve you a cup of coffee, why stay? The United States is (historically at least) a very mobile society.
Just to be clear, I'm not accusing you of racist dogwhistling, I'm just saying that that argument can be a justification for allowing a community to create an alienating environment towards a certain group of people.
"If you don't like it you can leave" ignores the fact that many people can't just move away. Imagine if you had to uproot your whole life, possibly your family's as well, and move to a new place. It would be hard for a wealthy person to leave behind their friends, their job, their hometown that they knew and loved. It's next to impossible for a poor person. And marginalized groups tend to be poor.
The south is integrated, but it went kicking and screaming. You assume that in time discrimination will disappear on it's own, but that's ignoring our historical context of bloody struggle to integrate. Without the Civil Rights Act or the civil rights movement, who knows how long segregation would have continued? Who knows how long it would have been before southerners just threw up their hands and said "fair enough, you can sit with me"? Remember, segregation had existed for a hundred years before the civil rights act.
And my example seems extreme with race, but it's not that extreme at all to imagine entire towns where the majority is against gay people. I used this "extreme example" (that actually was the norm for a hundred years) to provide context as to why people want to prevent discriminatory business practices.
duphre · 0 points · Posted at 01:18:04 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
"If you don't like it you can leave" ignores the fact that many people can't just move away. Imagine if you had to uproot your whole life, possibly your family's as well, and move to a new place. It would be hard for a wealthy person to leave behind their friends, their job, their hometown that they knew and loved. It's next to impossible for a poor person. And marginalized groups tend to be poor.
I think you are projecting some low expectations for people in this scenario. Again, if you're in a town of racists/bigots that do not want to engage your business, the incentive to leave is pretty damn high. Indeed, for me personally, it would be a pain in the ass to move the town over. But I am not operating in a scenario where no business owner is willing to take my money because of my race.
The south is integrated, but it went kicking and screaming. You assume that in time discrimination will disappear on it's own, but that's ignoring our historical context of bloody struggle to integrate.
What are you assuming? That discrimination won't go away until government takes action? It was government that enacted slavery, jim crow, segregation, and any other racist laws (subtle as they may be).
Also, my point in saying that the South is integrated is that there a lot of non-whites in the South. They also open businesses and provide services to their cities. There seems to be an assumption that only whites own businesses with these scenarios.
Without the Civil Rights Act or the civil rights movement, who knows how long segregation would have continued? Who knows how long it would have been before southerners just threw up their hands and said "fair enough, you can sit with me"? Remember, segregation had existed for a hundred years before the civil rights act.
I'm not sure about the relevance of this, unless you are trying to create an equivalence between a baker refusing to make a cake for a gay person in 2017 to jim crow laws in 1960. The times are quite different.
And my example seems extreme with race, but it's not that extreme at all to imagine entire towns where the majority is against gay people. I used this "extreme example" (that actually was the norm for a hundred years) to provide context as to why people want to prevent discriminatory business practices.
You use the extreme example because the extreme example is necessary to justify government interference in private enterprise. It's the same reason why people who are pro-abortion use rape and incest as examples for you to agree with them politically (despite the fact that rape and incest make up an very small minority of abortions). I'm pro-abortion but I can acknowledge that it's just a debate tactic used in politics.
Look, I hate that businesses would be willing to discriminate on any basis and I also hate government bureaucrats getting more involved in private enterprise. For better and for worse, American society was built on the premise of freedom (among which is economic freedom).
It should be okay by law, even if I personally think it's a shitty thing to do. And since most people think it's a shitty thing to do, it wouldn't be open for long.
Let's say the law says you have to serve everyone. That of course means you can't turn down black people, lesbians, eskimos, whatever. It also means you can't turn down the guy in a "I hate n*****" t-shirt. Or you have to bake a cake decorated with a nice big confederate flag, because the law says you can't turn anyone down.
adream1 · 5 points · Posted at 18:15:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
so it's okay for stores to not serve people of color or LGBTQ people then– what if you live in a small town with one bakery or only one grocery store?
According to you we might as well go back to Jim Crow's era.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 19:15:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There's nothing in the constitution that says you must be able to patronize a bakery. That leads to the argument that every town must have a least one bakery. You're not entitled to a bakery. I get your argument, but it's a lot more complicated than that.
I'm only saying that a private business should get to decide who they serve. They have to face the consequences if they piss people off (And read my original comment. I addressed grocery stores).
The laws that were enacted in some states protect race, religion, orientation, ethnicity, things like that. So that means your bakery has to make a cake for the upcoming anti-abortion party, even if you're pro-choice. Just an example of the other side of the coin.
adream1 · 7 points · Posted at 18:42:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I understand what you're saying and I'm disagreeing with it.
You can't do that for many reasons- if you live in a town where every private business is going to discriminate against you due to your skin color or sexuality then you're fucked. You also run into the problem of defining what a necessity is- your baked goods are not everyday necessity, and neither are figs that your grocery store serves, or toilet paper. So what businesses are allowed to discriminate and what businesses aren't?
If I'm a baker, and I don't want to decorate a cake with a confederate flag or pro-life message, then as a bakery I'm allowed to do that, by having a rule- no cake decoration- or no political messages wether it's right or left leaning. No wedding cakes, wether it's for straight couple or gay couple. Private businesses can have their own rules (GoDaddy Vs that neo-nazi site or Google vs that guy they just fired recently) they just can't pick and choose who these rules apply to.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 18:01:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
adream1 · 2 points · Posted at 18:16:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
what if it's the only bakery or restaurant in town? what if every restaurant or bakery in that town is going to refuse me service due to my sexuality or skin color? Should I move out of town or live in that hostile environment because it should be okay for a business to discriminate against me?
If someone is operating a public accommodation of any sort (not only "essential services," whatever those are) it is illegal for them to discriminate against people for anything that's equivalent to race. If sexual orientation is equivalent to race, then it's illegal for them to discriminate. If they want the right to discriminate, they need to convert to a members-only establishment (e.g. charge dues and keep a list of members).
No one has a right to own and operate a business that's open to the public and then refuse to serve members of the public on grounds that are equivalent to race. That's not a right that's protected anywhere in the Constitution.
tokol · 3 points · Posted at 17:56:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Agreed. That's why a lot of FB group moderators seem to be so uptight a lot of the time. Dude, there are plenty of space groups where you can talk politics as it relates to space policy, but Space Hipsters isn't one of them.
Yea, say whatever you want but im going to judge you for it.
Thorgil · 1 points · Posted at 18:02:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There's an xkcd about this, that it protects you from being sued about an opinion, but people can still find you a jerk and not hang out with you, or something like that.
If you continue reading the first line of that wikipedia article, it continues:
or a word or custom whose variations in pronunciation or style distinguish members of ingroups from those of outgroups, with an implicit value judgment based on familiarity with the shibboleth.
The West Wing episode specifically used that second definition, as a kind of secret code word to distinguish a group. An early Reddit shibboleth was "The narwhal bacons at midnight."
Nice try, though.
Jwhitx · 2 points · Posted at 03:17:11 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I like the biblical root. Army 1 beats Army 2 (for a completely moronic reason, but whatever). Army 2 escapes across a river. Army 1 quizzes anyone crossing to pronounce Shibboleth correctly (ally), kills anyone that can't (enemy). So basically if you don't bacon at midnight, you should die is what you mean.
Also that the first amendment protects Hate speech.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:52:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
While this is all true, I've seen so many people on reddit lately using the "freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequences of that speech" to justify violence against the speaker. That is not the same thing and should not be tolerated by any human being who wants to live in civilized society.
You are under no obligation to listen to abhorrent viewpoints or tolerate them in your private home or business, but you do not have the right to shut them up by physically assaulting them.
Adog777 · 1 points · Posted at 19:07:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I guarantee more than 10% of people get that. It's far closer to 10% that don't understand it. But here we are with one of the highest posts and even gilded. No political agenda here though...nope..
Fuzati · 1 points · Posted at 19:29:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's the point. You're free to be an intolerant piece of shit (on either side of the political spectrum) but expect to suffer the full consequences of your actions.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:49:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
private employment
I get how being a literal Nazi might make it tough for someone to find employment at a private company, but could someone work for the government with a background like that?
I JUST had this argument last night. Some dude tweeted that Go Daddy was violating Stormfront's First Amendment rights by telling them they had to shut down or move their cite. I told him that was ludicrous and used your explanation above. He said there were multiple Supreme Court cases that ruled that 1A rights apply to private companies. I asked him to name a case. So far silence
Yes, but the first amendment is just the government's codification of a very important principle that everyone should respect. It's an expression of how most Americans want to live their lives, not the be-all and end-all of free speech.
But that doesn't mean that being upset at the practice is wrong either though. We hold free speech in high regards and even legal private restriction of it is not necessarily a good thing
It does nothing to keep you from being banned from private establishments, shunned by your peers, or denied private employment.
Most people don't understand that employers are not bound by the majority of the Constitution, and they can shit all over what you think are your rights.
Free speech? Nope. Right to bear arms at work? Nope. Right to vote? Nope. Freedom from unreasonable search and seizure? Nope. Due process before being fired? Nope. Etc., et al., ad nauseam.
nate_oc · 1 points · Posted at 19:58:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Right on. Also, right of free speech also entails your right to be subject to the punishments of your derogatory speech (I.e. When josh Wedon cursed out on Twitter)
The first amendment protects you legally, but the wider ideal of free speech should, hypothetically, protect you socially. I hate the false equivalence that the 1st amendment of the united states bill of rights is free speech.
That said, there's not much you can do for idiots, free speech or no.
Which pretty clearly shows one other common thing that 90% of people don't get: constitutional rights are not absolute. The right to bear arms doesn't mean you can carry any weapon anywhere.
Also: Reddit is included under "private establishments". The admins can throw you out and don't have to come up with a reason for it if they don't want to.
NotSBS · 442 points · Posted at 16:12:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's spelt "lose" not "loose" I cannot believe the amount of people who get that wrong
When I was a kid I thought "Footloose" was the name of a guy, and everybody had to cut him. It was a confusingly violent song to me.
[deleted] · 15 points · Posted at 18:37:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Keiji99 · 2 points · Posted at 22:23:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
He's clearly referring to the vast number of people, who even I see in Reddit threads, spell "loose" when correctly it would be "lose".
Ardub23 · -1 points · Posted at 20:05:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
'Lose' is used more often though, and people somehow get it with two Os.
Edit: To clarify, I meant that the word 'lose' appears more frequently in English speech and writing than the word 'loose', but with how frequently it's misspelled you'd think they were as even as 'lie' and 'lay'.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 20:52:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Ardub23 · 0 points · Posted at 20:53:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What I meant was that losing something is a topic that comes up more often than looseness.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 20:56:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Ardub23 · 2 points · Posted at 21:00:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
'Lose' (including variants) is the 284th-most-used word in English, while 'loose' is 2,874th.
[deleted] · -1 points · Posted at 21:16:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Ardub23 · 2 points · Posted at 21:19:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Huh? When did I call one 'right' and the other 'wrong'? I only meant that it's wrong to use two Os when you're talking about losing something. I don't know how you've construed that to mean anything else.
You can on reddit. Reddiquette specifically states that you can appropriately end a post without punctuation, as long as the punctuation would not be a question mark
You can probably be good at choosing when to do it. Not saying it's a responsible thing to do, but if you're on a empty road, or stopped at a light that you generally know is a long light, the risk is probably lessened. Again not saying it's a responsible decision, but saying the person is just lucky seems a bit of an overstep.
As an experienced driver I can usually predict from a distance if some idiot is using their phone. From behind, the tells are slight weaving in their lane (more than the average idiot), and strange variations in speed. From beside them, I've seen them looking down for 3-4 seconds (I'm sure they think it was a half-second). This even happens in dense traffic.
I also disagree with you about empty roads. It doesn't take much to run off the road (see micro-corrections), and if it's really empty and you really mess it up, you're screwed.
Related: please stop texting at the red light. 99/100 times I see this as a pedestrian, the offender delays the line of people waiting to go (and the poor sod at the back of the line has no idea you're the root cause of him getting stuck at the light for the fifth click). Sometimes I carry a cup of water to splat on their windshield, but mostly I just yell at these idiots to get moving.
Again, not condoning this behavior. If you are at the red light though worst case scenario is you get rear ended or inconvenience someone. As for the empty road one, yeah you're probably right, but it can't be too hard to slow down a bit and just do glances or speech to text. Idk, if you're gonna make bad decisions at least use some common sense.
This is my take on it. Sure I know it's stupid but if I chose the right times to do it I'm only marginally increasing my chances of getting into an accident
I mean if you're just in your car not moving, ya text away. But even at 20 mph you're covering a lot of ground in that second or two seconds of not paying attention
I would argue that some people are "good" at texting and driving. It's just that being good at it doesn't decrease the danger to an acceptable point. I guarantee I'm way less likely to get into an accident because of texting while driving than my mother is, I am a better driver, have better reflexes, I'm m better multi-tasker etc. None of that means I should do it though.
You think that's bad. I have a friend who spanks it on long drives on interstate roads. I call him an idiot but like most people he says he's a good driver and can text and drive or rub one out and drive. Well most people don't think they can diddle themselves and drive but still.
I would argue that some people are "good" at texting and driving. It's just that being good at it doesn't decrease the danger to an acceptable point. I guarantee I'm way less likely to get into an accident because of texting while driving than my mother is, I am a better driver, have better reflexes, I'm m better multi-tasker etc. None of that means I should do it though.
[deleted] · -33 points · Posted at 18:51:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
they could also just be good at texting and driving
Nope they're lucky. Period. You can't multitask two high function things at once. Your attention will shift back and forth between your phone and driving, and data shows that looking away for only 2 seconds increases your risk of a crash by 20%. The brain literally cannot handle texting and driving. You're not good at it, no one's good at it. Period.
I had an accident like this a year ago. I turned my head for maybe a second with a two car gap in front of me. The next thing I knew the car in front of me had slammed his brakes I slammed mine. If I didn't look away for that one second I would still have my car.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 04:53:14 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
not saying it's a good idea, but you can certainly be more or less skilled at texting and driving, and the more skilled person will be less likely to end up in an accident
Not really. You can't really practice it, all you can do is look up more frequently, and even that has been shown to be bad(you're looking, but not seeing). It's a serious issue, and everyone who has done it and are alive today are lucky, not good.
[deleted] · -50 points · Posted at 19:28:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted] · -1 points · Posted at 21:26:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's funny. In a 90+ page document, "texting and driving" isn't mentioned a single time.
Do better.
cpMetis · 2 points · Posted at 23:15:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Shit. Meant to edit not delete.
I'll just do it here.
The point of the source was never to show the number of deaths caused by texting and driving, it was to show that number as caused by traffic accidents in general. It ties together as texting and driving is one of the causes of many of those accidents.
cpMetis · 1 points · Posted at 23:20:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm trying to find just one, easy to understand paper that shows my point, but at this stage I might as well just recommend the CDC in general.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 01:25:31 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
So you're making a false equivalence. Got it.
cpMetis · 2 points · Posted at 03:08:13 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
"about 18 percent of the drivers were engaged in at least one interior non-driving activity. The most frequent interior non-driving activity was conversation, either with other passengers in the vehicle or on a cell phone, especially among young (age 16 to 25) drivers."
If people can be good at multitasking, and texting and driving is multitasking, then why can't someone be good at it? Or at least better than most others? Would they be good enough to bet their life on it? Or mine? Maybe not. But it's also foolish to not concede that someone might be better at doing the two things at once than someone else. All that being said, I wouldn't do it. But I also can't walk and breathe at the same time....
Driving requires 100% attention. It's not that humans can't multitask, it's that the task can't be multitasked. Texting requires thinking+looking+using the hands. Driving requires thinking+looking+using the hands.
That's why if you drink and drive or talk and drive you are pretty safe. Because drinking doesn't require much thinking or seeing, and talking requires only hearing and some thinking and no hands.
It can be multitasked. It's done everyday by people who may never admit to it but who also don't wreck doing it. It doesn't mean I would recommend setting your cruise control and writing a novel, but it's also clearly not impossible. Is it very unsafe and never ever worth the risk? Absolutely. Do people take that risk and have no immediate negative consequences? You betcha.
That's why you can only text and drive with a keypad phone. A smartphone is a death sentence, but T9 (whether it's predictive or not) only requires touching and the thinking time is much less than a full keyboard where your wpm can be double digits.
Still not a good idea, but texting and driving was a lot safer before the iPhone.
[deleted] · -1 points · Posted at 20:22:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Could you tell me when, while driving, you would ever not need to look at the phone? Even at red light you will most likely miss it when it goes green and cause a minor traffic jam.
You can't be a good texter and driver for the same reason a blind person can't be a good driver. Your eyes need to be constantly and consitently looking out the window and gathering information. You can glance at the speedometer, glance at the radio or glance at your passenger mid conversation, but you can't compose a text by glancing at your phone. Just think, how long would it take you to unlock your phone, read a text, send "k" then get reacquainted with your surroundings? 500ms? At 60mph(100kph or 27m/s) that's about 44ft(13.5m) or 3 car lengths. That's a substantial distance you will have travelled blind.
Furthermore, the beauty of texting is that it doesn't require an immediate response to function. It can, and should wait. And if it can't wait, then pull into a driveway, or parking lot (not the side of the road, this is illegal in some places).
Texting and driving is as stupid as driving high or drunk. You are in control of a heavy and unforgiving battering ram. Why for any reason would you willingly do things to give up control to chance? Could you live with yourself if that "k" was responsible for killing someone?
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 21:08:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes, I could live with myself.
And yes, you can compose a text while driving--slight glances, or no look. Like you said, sight glances are allowed.
I would argue that some people are "good" at texting and driving. It's just that being good at it doesn't decrease the danger to an acceptable point. I guarantee I'm way less likely to get into an accident because of texting while driving than my mother is, I am a better driver, have better reflexes, I'm m better multi-tasker etc. None of that means I should do it though.
Fucking 3rd shift. If you work it, you're cursed with an aura that screams to day-walkers "please wake me up at 10am, I'm only 4-5 hours deep into my sleep schedule.
I've had to have multiple sit-downs with my SO and explain to her it's not okay to wake me up at 8 in the fuckin' morning to tell me about things she did yesterday. That's what the evening is for, or lunch if we go out together.
It's unbelievable how disrespectful/not thoughtful people are of your sleep schedule. My boss calling me at 11am and telling me about some work related things, then insinuating I'm lazy because I'm still asleep. Bitch, I go to bed between 6 and 7am, please tell me how I'm lazy by trying to get a normal amount of sleep.
It's such a small issue, but it's so infuriating that people just don't understand 3rd shift means people need to sleep later than "normies"
I used to get home from work at about 6:30 when my wife was getting up to go to work. Then she'd go to work and I would go to bed.
She would come home at 5:00 (when I was just getting up) and ask me what I did today. Umm...I slept.
"You slept all day?!?" She never could fathom how I could sleep all day, no matter how often I explained that she slept all night when I was at work.
It eventually got so stressful that I switched to a day job.
Honestly, the hardest part was the off-work hours. While she was doing her morning, pre-work routine: showering, getting dressed, making coffee, I was doing my evening routine of eating pizza, drinking beer and watching tv.
It just got too weird after a while.
My family refuses to understand that when I get off work at midnight I don't go straight to bed. I keep asking them, well when you get home at 5 pm do you go straight to bed? No you usually go to bed around 10-11 pm. It takes time to unwind and relax, that's what I'm doing at 4 am.
_ferz · 37 points · Posted at 19:54:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When I used to work at night, I'd come home at 4-5am from work, get a beer, browse news and go to sleep. I ended up with intervention because I drank in the "morning". Mother fuckers it's my "evening" and I want a beer before I go to sleep. Should I be drinking at 9pm before I go to work instead because it fits your preconceived idea?
hold up, give more details on the intervention thing. Who the hell would set that up?
_ferz · 18 points · Posted at 20:00:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It was more of a scandal at the house rather than actual intervention but it was pretty tense, a lot of yelling and screaming about "my problem" and that I am going to end up like my alcoholic uncle.
Usually once a week I will go to my mom's office and go out for lunch with her, and she never understands why I only get something small, like an appetizer or a bowl of soup or something. I just woke up, I don't want to eat some crazy elaborate meal, I want breakfast.
Admittedly, there have been a few times where I've woken up fully to facilitate a conversation with her, because there were some serious family issues going on during those times, and it would've been really crappy of me to just rollover and go back to bed after mumbling "tell me later." So me being more "relaxed" about it after those issues had passed led to her waking me up a few times. Just a gentle reminder/quick comment to please let me sleep was all it took for her to realize what she was doing.
Mucl · 11 points · Posted at 19:47:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What I hated the most when I worked 3rd shift was door to door solicitors. I put up a no soliciting sign, kept my car in the garage so it didn't look like anyone was home, at least a couple times a week someone would knock on the door while I was asleep. On it's own probably wouldn't wake me but my dog would not stop barking until I would get up and open the door.
I've gone apeshit at more than a few door to door solicitors in my day. Just standing there in my boxers asking them if they could read using every expletive I could think of.
Do what I do, call those people on my break at 3am to discuss things.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 06:20:34 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
How can someone not understand that calling me at 1 pm about (utterly unimportant) work stuff is like me calling you at 10 or 11 pm?
I started returning the texts at 3am and the 1pm message stopped :)
If someone is older than they're not necessarily right. You have no idea how often people told me that I was wrong because an adult or an older sibling said otherwise.
I think this is especially true to parents and grandparents. They have their mentality set and aren't willing to change, even when presented with data. I tried to convince my uncle that flying is safer than walking, and he won't even take me seriously. I've done my research bro just cuz it sounds wrong doesn't mean it is wrong.
The flying thing is true btw. How many people die because they walked into traffic or slipped and cracked their necks? Planes very rarely crash, and even in the worse case scenario, there's over 70% survival rate. You can't really factor in hijacks because the plane didn't kill anyone, the idiot pilot purposely flew it into a building.
If you're gonna be in a plane crash, there's nothing you can do to try and survive.
If you're driving and are about to be in a crash, there's a much bigger chance that you can actively do something to increase your chances of survival.
People ignore your facts because it doesn't do anything to actually address the root of their fear.
While it is true that you're statistically much less likely to die flying than driving, the fear about not having control over the situation is indeed rational.
Pretty much. I'm safe on a roller coaster, but I'm terrified, because I'm not in control.
I've ridden a motorcycle for 35 years and so far, just one minor accident. I'm in control and it feels good, but I sure don't kid myself that it's safer than a rollercoaster.
Xuiron · 20 points · Posted at 18:29:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I hate to be that guy, but the idea that singular they is wrong is a 19th century invention that nobody should take seriously. Ever since the time of Shakespeare (and possibly earlier) people have used they in a singular form when they do not need to specify someone's gender.
[deleted] · -1 points · Posted at 20:48:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well, I certainly can't verify or deny that it's a 19th century construct without researching it. I'm just spitting back what I was taught in school and for SAT prep.
I can say that I've never heard or read someone use "they is... (singular form)" in a piece of writing, though.
I was also thinking that maybe they missed "you" and a comma between "than" and "they're" instead of just using "than" instead of "then," but we can't really know unless ZlPMusic fixes it
I had an ex girlfriend that believed everything her father told her, despite him being wrong about nearly everything he said. It was massively detrimental to her life at the time and it took so much effort to get her to not just blindly believe what he was saying but instead, do her own research about things.
I don't know how the phrase "Respect your elders" became a thing because you're also told to respect those younger than you. It should just be "Respect everybody".
At the same time I don't automatically discount my elder's advice. I have to acknowledge the fact that they have had at least twice the amount of time to think about things that I have had so it's very possible they may have a more realistic viewpoint on topics than I do.
If I hear something that I initially find irrational, instead of immediately writing them off as bigots or uniformed, I'll pick their brain on why they have that view point. Usually it ends up being irrational, but occasionally their reasoning is sound and I've gained a new perspective that I otherwise would have spent years getting to by myself.
I'm almost 60. It's true, I've seen a lot of "great ideas" come and go, some of which stood the test of time, others which didn't.
For me, the most valuable discovery was that most of what I thought I knew, was bullshit, or mostly true at one time but now obsolete, or implanted in my mind by marketers/authority figures/respected elders who either didn't have it right themselves, or had their own agenda which I didn't recognize at the time.
But you have to stretch your mind and be comfortable with uncertainty to get to that point. Plenty of people my age just settled in with Fox News or the New York Times or the Wall Street Journal and now think they know more than they ever did before. Sigh.
That's true. I never said that they're never right, just that I hate when people use the logic, "I'm older than you so everything that you say that I disagree with is automatically wrong".
There was this dude that lived in the apartment opposite mine. He was 25 years older than me. I work in film, top tier kind of stuff. He was a professional photographer (or so he said) he was occasionally at best paid for his work. He always wanted to give me advice, trying to badly explain technical things to me, that I had a very good understanding of, and in truth his ramblings just demonstrated his complete lack of understanding. But as he was older than me, he firmly believed he knew more than me, contrary to all the actual evidence. It drove me crazy. He also made super pervy comments about my gf which didn't help. Rant over.
Its actually impossible to discuss anything with my dad because of this. Every time I disagree with him its because I'm too young and haven't had the time and wisdom to fully blossom into the radical conservative I will eventually become.
yes, just this year in my late 20s I am realizing that just because someone is older than me, doesn't mean they are mature or right. when i was a kid I looked up to all adults, now i realize that a lot of them are irresponsible pieces of shit
cpMetis · 1 points · Posted at 20:00:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
During the ---- election, I tried to way in on a conversation...
"We don't care. You're just an ignorant child."
Ass. I'm not old enough to vote like you, but I'm still less than 2 years younger than you. My age doesn't make my opinion invalid. And, hell, you just said you didn't know much about [topic being discussed].
Yeah, but that isn't necessarily true for things that have an answer easily verifiable. Once, I had a friend who was convinced that Winston Churchill was the Prime Minister during WW1 because his brother said so. I showed him evidence that he wasn't but he firmly believed it. It's something I can easily check and prove so your logic doesn't always apply.
Besides, if two people were given the same amount of time to work out some problem then one being older won't make a difference.
I'm almost 60 and I am now damn sure that age does not "bring wisdom". At best, you've stayed alive because you made a preponderance of not-disastrous decisions. I've learned some things, and more importantly, I've learned that a lot of what I thought I knew, was bullshit. But I sure wouldn't go so far as to call it "wisdom". I don't dare presume to advise my adult children on how to live their lives. If they have a question, I will answer, yet will caution them that it's mostly based on my own life experience and growing up in a different era, so take it FWIW. Anyway, it seems to me that we all have to make our own mistakes to truly learn the lessons.
If someone is older than they're not necessarily right.
One of my favorite quotes by a scientist (paraphrased): "Science advances one funeral at a time."
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 06:24:32 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
The worst part is when you start looking into the lifestyles and attitudes of many of our grandparents or parents who came up in the 50's. It is like they single-handedly forgot all of the good shit their recent ancestors had figured out in favour of processed food and fake wood.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:48:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In the digital age I would consider older people some of the least knowledgeable on most topics. I remember fighting my mom on something about the moon, eventually we got into a yelling match and I printed something and read it to her only to still be told i was wrong.
I know that this will sound really stupid. I still don't know how to calculate calories burned. I've tried to google it but they use words and abbreviations that I don't know. I am looking to lose about 70lbs but calories are a mystery to me.
focus more on your diet than what you're burning. Get MyFitnessPal and input your current weight and your target weight and how much you want to lose per week. You then input everything you eat every day and it will count the calories for you. If you stick to it, your weight will drop consistently. Adding exercise into it will simply speed up the process.
No worries! Once you start using it for a period of time you'll get a much better feel for what calories/protein/carbs/fat are in what foods and you'll probably find it a lot easier than you think to lose weight. A Deficit of just 500 calories a day will probably have you dropping a pound a week. Add exercise into the equation and you'll speed that up.
1) Sometimes, you're going to try to put something into your food diary that doesn't have a perfect match. Maybe it's dinner a friend cooked, or something you got at a restaurant. Don't sweat it. Find something close enough, and use that.
2) What you usually do is more important than what you sometimes do. If you're setting a goal of, say, 1500 calories every day, but on Sunday you have dinner with friends and end up at 2100, that's ok! Don't beat yourself up over it, or decide that your mistake is undoing all your other hard work.
3) Dieting is pretty much the ultimate "your mileage may vary" activity. I tried limiting daily intake, but that didn't work for me. What did work was the Fast diet (2 days a week of aggressive dieting, normal eating the rest of the week). A coworker couldn't manage the Fast diet, but alternate-day fasting worked miracles for him. Another friend tried vegetarianism (and somehow gained weight), but was able to get in better shape on a paleo diet. It may take some experimenting for you to find a diet/exercise regiment that gets results AND you enjoy doing. You just have to find it.
This precisely! I really like what Jeff Cavaliere says about dieting, and others prob say the same shit, but I haven't heard or watch them. A diet will never stick, you have to change something in your lifestyle that you can do for the next few years so your change is long term. I have 3 young kids, a job, college, work out, sleep to little, etc. I can't eat to little on 9/10 days because I will feel like shit. The one thing that really works for me is 2 big meals a day, one somewhere in the morning, the other with the family around dinner. And then add fruits etc as snacks. I basically try to eat as healthy as I can and just have 2 dinners a day, within my calories. I feel awesome and I am getting leaner.
Oh and I refuse to not take part in family stuff, so the kids want some greasy fries every now and then? I am in there taking what is mine. Just gotta hit the gym harder the next few days.
So yeah, just fool around with several different things until you find yours and even then keep looking around.
jspost · 2 points · Posted at 00:12:15 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
You're so spot on with this it's uncanny. I've dropped a lot of weight like this. It's sustainable for me because I don't stress over one bad meal or one bad day. I always tell people that the best diet is the one you are able to stick with.
Good for you :) also, it might sound daunting but you should really look into a weight lifting program as well as a little cardio. Weight lifting will not automatically make you muscular, that requires eating more calories than you're burning, but it burns more calories than cardio because your muscles have to repair and this means you continue to burn calories even after your workout.
Best of luck to you :)
[deleted] · 12 points · Posted at 17:06:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Does that app also help with gaining weight? Ive been trying to gain some weight but idk how to go around it
Yup! I am currently using it for that reason. Putting on about a pound of muscle per week so far. It doesn't take into account calories actually burned during weight lifting session so you'll need to account for that on top but once you get used to eating the same amount/same macro split every week and stick to a work out routine for several weeks you'll start to know what your body needs and tailor it yourself. Highly recommend it for gaining weight.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 17:17:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You're welcome, good luck to you! Another thing, get yourself some kitchen scales and measuring cups if you don't have them. It's tedious measuring out all your food but you'll become much better at "eyeballing" it if you do stick to measuring for a while. Also, oatmeal for breakfast! Definitely helped me pack on the lbs.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 17:53:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'll get to that then, sounds like a good idea to get into measuring properly. Thanks again dude!
yeah it is a good one, i tend to stick to raw almonds because they're slightly healthier but i have heard that a spoonfull or 2 of peanut butter is great for bulking.
DialMMM · 1 points · Posted at 20:39:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No. Don't listen to the guy that said "Yup!" The only way it helps with gaining is tracking consumption and weight. For an app that has "fitness" in it's name, it is surprisingly bad at tracking weight-lifting activities, which are the most effective for gaining muscle mass. Surprisingly, it even teases you if you lose weight ("You lost 2 pounds!"), a testament to its true purpose, weight loss.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:42:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Where did I say I wanted to use it for weight lifting? Fitness doesn't only mean lifing weights and getting jacked dude. I just want to get out of the underweight level of weight into a healthy(fit, see what I did there?) weight. What is the point in antagonising him?
DialMMM · 1 points · Posted at 20:55:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You said you wanted to gain weight, and lifting weights is the most efficient way to gain muscle. Are you intending to gain fat instead?
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 21:16:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You do know you need fat to gain muscles right? My body fat % is close to nonexistent
DialMMM · 1 points · Posted at 21:34:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You don't need to gain fat to gain muscle, but it is certainly easier to gain both and cut than to just gain muscle. Either way, myfitnesspal wasn't designed for those looking to gain, and it sucks for tracking activities relevant to gaining, other than consumption.
[deleted] · 14 points · Posted at 18:03:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
and remember not all calories are created equal. If you have too much sugar it prompts an insulin response and you'll feel hungry again sooner. "A calorie is a calorie is a calorie" makes sense from a First Rule of Thermodynamics point of view, but not in a healthy diet and nutrition regime point of view.
Sugar is in everything, and it's the only thing on the Nutrition Facts that doesn't have the percentage daily value. You need 65 grams of sugar a day, and some stuff tricks you into eating almost half that amount before noon time. I saw a Yogurt that was "Chocolate and Pralines"-- basically pudding sold as yogurt, one of those little single-serve cups had 20g sugar. Once you reduce it for over a week even bread seems sweet.
edit: update - 26 days later. Controlling the sugar fixed a lot of troubles, eating bread now puts me to sleep! I just crash on bread/carbs if I have too many. Weird.
Sugar is your biggest enemy when it comes to weight loss/healthy eating. I'd rather each a big fatty piece of steak (with a giant pile of veggies) than one slice of pie.
Also, simple carbs basically turn into sugar when eaten, so watch out for white breads, chips, and other carby stuff. Don't worry too much about potatoes.
Meal prepping can make your life so much easier, give you more energy, reduce stress, and help you eat healthy. If you want a quick and easy guide to meal prep, shoot me a PM.
I won't argue that your muscles have to recover more after weight lifting, but as a distance runner who is very sore after 22 miles yesterday, don't my muscles have to repair themselves quite a bit as well?
Yes that's true. I'll be honest i don't know a lot, if any, of the science of recovering from distance running. However it stands to reason that they recover in a different way. When weight lifting, your muscles try to repair bigger so they have greater capacity for strength. When endurance running they recover for endurance. I don't know how that differs really but it could.
Also running 22 miles is very different from a standard cardio session. I was more comparing like an hour of steady state cardio to an hour of weight lifting.
Well done for running htat far though, i couldn't do it haha
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:22:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes. Any kind of expenditure on your body that you must "push" yourself to complete will cause myofibers (aka muscle cells) to break down and will result in your muscles needing to rebuild those fibers. Simply put, there are two types of muscle cells (well, more than 2, but to keep it simple)- fast and slow. Slow-type help with endurance (ie 22 mile run), fast-type help with bursts of energy (ie sprints, few but high weight reps for weight lifting). So your muscles are dedicating more fibers as slow-type due to the endurance training when rebuilding the muscle.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:36:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's actually more complex than that.
First, it's a great idea to exercise in any capacity (the best way, when starting, is to do what's fun to build a habit). This is also not necessarily as a means to lose weight (that starts in the kitchen), but as a way to prevent loss of muscle.
Because muscle is great for breaking down to use as energy by the body. Exercise, however, will slow or prevent this- if you're using those muscles then it isn't in your bodies' interest to break them down.
Secondarily, your muscles need to repair whether or not you've done cardio or weight lifting. Both result in myofibers (muscle cells that make up muscle) breaking down and getting repaired- thus you would continue to burn calories after the workout in either case. Also, you can have a beast of a workout and not be sore- this doesn't mean your muscles are not being repaired.
All that being said, a tip for starting is to go for endurance exercises (whether cardio or weight lifting). There's been some research to show that after doing short, high intensity workouts, despite hormone signalling your body is not hungry, people often feel hungry right after. With endurance work outs it's been shown that people don't feel hungry for a time after. Of course, it can be different for everyone. It's really best to find something enjoyable or at least that isn't horrible, since it's easier to keep doing it if it's fun.
The muscle repair is different depending on the exercise though. When you lift weights your muscles try to repair bigger and stronger and require more energy to do so. Endurance training requires that they repair for more endurance. I also didn't mention anything about pain after a workout. That usually happens when you first start out/start a new regime but fades as your body gets used to recovery.
Your point about finding something enjoyable is great advice though. It's way easier to motivate yourself to be active if it's something you enjoy.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 22:00:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It IS different, where-in you have myofibers that are either dedicated to "endurance" or "fast/bursts" type moves (slow-twitch or fast-twitch), but muscle repair (and muscle building) occurs with both. Lifting weights may result in larger muscles, but that's not to say that cardio can't build muscle. You also haven't clarified cardio- where jogging will give you completely different results than swimming, etc.
I was just trying to give the op more info, where focusing on weight-lifting isn't the be-all, end-all, and where cardio does still result in muscle repair and rebuilding (and thereby calorie consumption).
there's some pretty good evidence that the afterburn effect you're speaking of is fairly minute. As in, less additional calories burned than an additional 5 minutes of cardio would have done. Weightlifting is always a good part of any exercise plan, but if weight loss is goal #1, emphasize cardio.
it has a compound effect though, more muscles means faster metabolism. Difficult to really prove though because it's very dependent on intensity of cardio. IF you're doing 5 more minutes of HIIT then you're probably right, but 5 minutes of light jogging, i'm not sure it's the case.
A mixture of both weights and cardio is definitely the most effect method for weight loss in terms of exercise. But if weight loss is really your goal, emphasize your diet.
Yes, it should be cleanly stated that diet absolutely, positively, 100% comes first.
Assuming you've got that in order though, and your goal is weight loss, cardio is king. The metabolism gain takes quite a while to be meaningful, an d in the meantime you could have burned a magnitude higher number of calories through medium intensity cardio
Just google weight lifting vs cardio and read anything. It's not wrong. I mean it's generalised. An hour long weights session will not burn more calories than running a marathon.
[deleted] · 9 points · Posted at 17:34:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Dont go overboard or you'll overwhelm yourself and give up. Chewing gum wont help other than to stave off hunger pangs. Just use the app, don't go over the limit, and you'll drop the weight.
Mahhrat · 6 points · Posted at 18:18:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Hey mate, you're on a great path and best of luck to you.
One tip though, don't chew gum if you can help it. Chewing stimulates your gut to expect food and makes you hungry.
As you cut calories you'll get hungry anyway. Gum often makes it worse.
Source: lost about 100 lbs 2 years ago.
Goyu · 7 points · Posted at 19:08:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
As a followup to u/poo-boys-united's comment, I encourage starting slow. I lost about 30 pounds about a year and a half ago, and got overexcited jumping into the fitness game, and predictably, I injured myself.
If you haven't been very physically active for a long time, there's a lot of stuff your body needs to do. It's not just your bones and muscles getting stronger, it's also your brain needing to remember the correct range of motion for exercises you haven't done in a long time, and it's easy to get hurt in a moment of inattention or over the course of weeks by doing an exercise with bad form.
I recommend that you start slow, by going on walks every day. I walked to the store, about a mile away and back, pretty much every day. Didn't matter if I didn't really need anything, I'd walk to the store and buy a bottle of water or lemons or something, whatever, and then back. For strength exercises, you could do squats and lunges, no need for weights.
After a few weeks, you could try jogging or using an eliptical machine, which is low impact so no shin splints and you can start to rebuild foundational strength in your legs and core as well as retraining your brain to move your body in balance. I like to bring my tablet and watch an episode of something while I am on the eliptical. And then maybe some burpees. Burpees, by the way, are physically humiliating when you are out of shape. It's just a series of simple movements but by the third or fourth one, you're miserable. That's ok, they get easier. Once you're feeling more confident with squats/lunges/burpess/pushups, then start looking at weightlifting, your odds of an injury will be much lower.
TL;DR: Start slow, progress through low impact stuff like walking/squats and move to more intense stuff like running/burpees before trying weight, to avoid injury.
Very good advice. My apologies, i neglected to mention anything like that. It's important to not start by trying to do long runs on the treadmill if you are particularly overweight (no offense intended) as this could be very damaging to your knees.
-ad-as- · 3 points · Posted at 18:19:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just in case you start feeling burned out, drop the cardio and/or weight lifting before you give up on the diet. You can drop the weight by just changing your diet, no gym needed.
Hey you should check out /r/xxfitness. It's a really neat subreddit and it really helped me start my "fitness journey". Went from never visiting a gym evernever in my life to a regular Gym-goer. It also has some beginner-friendly programs to choose from if you are interested.
If you find you are losing weight faster or slower than it says you should adjust accordingly.
Also be accurate and consistent with your tracking. Don't take the lowest calorie option for a food knowing it doesn't really represent what you ate ( was at a huge Apple or an unusually big glass of wine?)
Also check out r/loseit, I hear they're really encouraging! If you don't like MyFitnessPal, another calorie counter is also called LoseIt, unrelated to the sub.
And when you go to the gym, some people might be judgemental. Just remember, you're there for you, and you're the one who is doing something impressive: working to change your life. It's admirable to try for such a large change.
Get a food scale, it will help with counting - people are often surprised by how much bigger something like a regular chicken breast or a spoon of peanut butter is compared to a "serving size"
Way to get motivated! I'm on my own weight-loss journey as well. I also highly recommend heading over to /r/loseit as a great way to keep yourself accountable and motivated. They are a great group of people and happy to help answer any questions you have, from the most basic to the most technical.
Awww man! This guy is gonna make all kinds of gains. Pick up heavy things and put them down my dude. Just don't join planet fitness, they don't have barbells in that bitch.
Also, just a little advice. 1 to 2 lbs lost a week is actually going at a pretty good clip. That's a good rate of loss, that's all ya need.
One bit of advice, dont be too ambitious at first, dont bite off more than you can chew.
Its better to start with realistic goals and stick to them than go whole hog and burn out on it after a week. You can always increase what you do later once you get the right habits built up.
hah thanks. Eh fairly clean. I mean i'm eating about 3500 calories a day and i'm 175lbs but i'm eating all clean foods. Lets say clean bulking with dirty quantities haha.
Nah i'm aiming for 185 at the moment then i'll reassess. Problem is i've had chicken leg syndrome my whole life so i'm not sure what i'll look like at 185 now i've switched my focus to include 2 leg days a week. I used to be 180 but it all went on my upper body and i was pretty big so i'm thinking 185/190 with proportionate legs will be perfect for me.
How much weight you lose varies on the composition of your diet, mainly how it affects your insulin levels. You'll want to cut out all added sugars and try to reduce the amount of carbs you eat for the most efficient weight loss.
True but for people starting out, calories are the most important thing to watch. It can be very daunting and offputting for people to try to take into account all the different macros and such. I'd recommend starting out just making sure you have the right calorie deficit before moving on to adjusting your macro split.
Add exercise into the equation and you'll speed that up
I'm being a little pedantic here but this isn't quite right. The 500 calorie per day figure is for burning a pound of fat, which is the desired goal. But going too far beyond that deficit, depending on body composition, will prompt your body to burn more muscle along the way (the actual point at which this happens depends on your body makeup and other factors, but a deficit of 500 is generally the mark to aim for).
The way you've phrased your response makes it sound like being at a 500 calorie deficit and adding exercise TO that deficit will cause you to lose more fat. But going too far to the extreme may prompt your body to think it's starving, and you'll lose your muscle mass.
A 500 calorie deficit is a great goal, but assume exercise as a part of the deficit, not as something additional to speed the process along. A large component of healthy weight loss is patience!
Yeah i mean if you have enough fat to burn your body generally won't go to burning muscle right away. Particularly if you're getting enough protein in your diet. But i do get your point. You definitely don't want to be having a 1500 calorie deficit.
MauPow · 1 points · Posted at 21:08:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I found it hard to track when you cook everything from scratch and don't really follow a recipe, just throw stuff from the garden in there. Adding all the individual ingredients, portion sizes, etc gets to be a hassle. Any tips?
it is a hassle tbh but as long as you measure out accurately the individual ingredients and enter them into the app it should be easier next time as it stores those measurements.
Or you can even create meals in the app i think so if you measure out all the ingredients and add them to a meal you've created you can just use that meal again rather than individually adding everything.
jfm2143 · 12 points · Posted at 17:11:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
With their help, and tracking calories with myfitnesspal I lost 60 pounds without any exercise. It's totally doable. I wish I did it years ago, now I just encourage others to start the journey too.
I did this with a similar app (LoseIt!). Had no idea how to count calories beforehand but the app does it all. I input all my food (stuck to the calorie budget they gave me) and worked out. I'm down ~30lbs since the beginning of April. First time I am under 200lbs in 11 years.
This. It's really annoying, but it works (unless there is something medical going on). Get a scale and really use it to portion. Also, it saves things you usually eat so that you can add them quickly. Good luck! I lost all my baby weight using it and now I'm trying that again.
I second the app. Does a nice job of giving you a goal.
TIPS: Keep in mind that missing your goal 1 day shouldn't be a huge disappointment, it's more about overall cals in/cals out per week. Take it slow to start and gradually change your portioning and the kinds of food you eat. Your stomach / body will adjust to the reduction in cals; you won't feel hungry after every meal forever. It takes time, keep at it. Goodluck! :)
A small tip: moat of these apps will ask you for your activity level. Underestimate how active you are unless you are 100% sure. The difference of 100-200 calories can be the difference.
Woohoo! Another one! If you don't cheat, you are going to lose so much weight.
I recommend getting a fitness tracker, too.
Good luck!
kapxis · 1 points · Posted at 17:25:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's good advice, you'll learn as you use the app also. Also as an FYI 1 lb of fat = approx 3500 calories.
Kepui · 1 points · Posted at 17:38:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
MyFitnessPal helped me lose over 50lbs over the course of about 5 months. It'll even let you scan the barcodes on things to track them; it's great. The weight didn't fly off me but it felt like healthy weight loss and it taught me where a huge number of my calories were coming from, aka I drink a lot less soda now.
there's a few subs you might get some use out of: /r/loseit -weight loss /r/EatCheapAndHealthy -this can help you save money, cook /r/MealPrepSunday -It is easier to portion control 1x a week vs everyday.
Truly, weight loss is a diet game not an exercise game.
To put this in perspective: to burn off the calories in a single M&M candy you need to talk about the length of a football field. To burn the calories in a Snickers bar you need to walk a couple miles.
By simply not eating the Snickers bar you save yourself from having to put in significant extra exertion that day to balance out your intake with your level of activity.
Better yet if you don't eat the junk calories and you still walk the extra miles, you come closer (or actually begin) to run a calorie deficit.
Keep in mind of other factors too. Like if your metabolism is veeeeery slow then you will need to consume even less calories than advised.
Theres more factors such as over/underactive thyroids etc.
But in general - make sure you start eating at regular small intervals of around 2 hours to make your body get the food through constantly and speed up your metabolism and stick to the diet/fitness plan.
If you find yourself never hungry, consult a specialist. If you are always hungry, make sure to stop yourself and eat at regular intervals anyway. Except if you exercise quite a bit - meal straight after.
And try to exercise every 3 days AT LEAST. Your body needs to move, and you will feel great.
Hope that helps a bit. It helped me to lose over 20 lbs.
Mycoe · 1 points · Posted at 19:44:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That part about finding yourself always hungry, I'd also add try going for a drink of water as sometimes it's just that you're actually thirsty, sometimes it even helps fill you up a little. Another thing I do personally thanks to a tip on /r/loseit is always wait at least 30 minutes after a meal before deciding if I want any more. The vast majority of the time I don't.
As a separate tip, I've found cutting out carbohydrates has sped the process up greatly. No more bread in the house, popcorn instead of crisps as a snack, sweet potato instead of normal if I absolutely have to have some chips, you get the idea. I try to stick to under 100g of them a day which is easier than I thought, but I must have been eating around 300+ before.
1) Measure your food. Ideally by weight but it's the US and most things are by volume.
2) Don't eat back exercise calories - mostly because it grossly overestimates. I have a friend who logs "vacuuming - 30 mins - 700 calories burned" - guess who is not losing weight...
tojoso · 1 points · Posted at 20:04:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Make sure to update your weight at least once per week, if not once per day. And try to be consistent with time of day, ie right after you go to the bathroom every morning. Seeing the consistent progress is a great motivator for those times when having a cheeseburger or ice cream is oh so tempting. And have realistic expectations. You should lose 1 lb per week for every 500 calorie daily deficit.
Deraek · 1 points · Posted at 20:13:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Make sure you get a food scale and some measuring cups.
You can get decent ones for like $10.
Another way to do this would be to look up a "TDEE" calculator and answer the questions honestly - this will get you how many calories you need to stay at your current weight. Now subtract 200-500 calories from that and eat that much, recalculate every 10 lbs or so.
I would also recommend not "eating back" calories. Meaning if you exercise that's awesome, but don't log it in MFP and then eat additional calories because your burned some. The counts for exercising are so inaccurate for what you burn that you might gain weight by doing it (been there, seen that).
Come join us on r/loseit for some friends and support with all of your questions :)
Aiognim · 1 points · Posted at 00:32:20 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Good luck. It gets way easier to eat less over time. Your stomach (like the organ that processes food, not what we call the torso that you are trying to slim down.) literally shrinks after a couple of weeks of eating less.
Also, like the parent comment said, its as simple as eating less energy than you spend, so your body can't replenish the fat cells you spend. You also may lose weight and not notice/see it because it could be from you "spending" fat cells within your body (I mean next to your organs, as opposed to the fat on your stomach that is under your skin, but on the outside of your ab muscles.) Don't let that discourage you. It is happening whether you can see it or not, you just have to keep at it.
To add to that, you can't "spot burn" fat. Your body takes energy from fat cells where ever it wants to. You can't tell it where to grab from. You can't to crunches to get rid of stomach fat. It doesn't work like that. Fat is extra gas tanks stuck on all sides of your body. You don't choose which one goes into the fuel tank.
I started a long time ago and one of the best resources was this absolutely hideous website full of great info.
Also reddit has a ton of support and info, and also about the same amount misinformation.
Check into everything. Even the things I said in this post. Don't just hear words, find out why they are said.
Again, good luck.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 06:22:00 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
For a quick super charge pick out the WORST things that you eat (probably sugary drinks like juice or pop and take out food) and cut them out or down.
Cryssw · 1 points · Posted at 17:18:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Keep in mind however that my fitness pal can gauge very low and you might be in too much of a deficit.
My favourite calculator is Katy Hearns. Google Katy Hearn fit calculator and it will link you. It will break down your macronutrients if you want, but you don't have to follow that if you aren't looking for very specific results like muscle retention/gain etc.
Then input that number into my fitness pal instead. That's what I had a friend doing while I was strictly focused on my macronutrients and she lost almost as much as I did (I lost 20lbs while getting a little newbie muscle gain which was my goal) and she was just tracking.
Also, for anything that's not very low in calories it's smart to weigh your portions. Most people automatically over portion and end up consuming 100-200 calories a day with things like oatmeal, peanut butter, etc. :) so if you feel like you're not losing what you want but you're being honest with what you're eating that could be hindering it a little. Just an FYI for down the road.
Weighing your portions is super important, especially at the beginning. Like you say, particularly for things like oatmeal if you're having it with whole milk. I think once you've started weighing/measuring all your portions for a while you can more accurately "eyeball" the correct portions but if you're really serious about it you should measure everything.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 17:26:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Adding to this, if you are counting calories and saw some weight loss at first but have now leveled out, then cut a few hundred more calories from your daily count, and you'll see the weight loss start up again before eventually leveling out, then you can cut a few more, etc, etc..... by doing this you'll find the number of calories that sustain you at a given weight.
It's definitely hard to calculate your caloric expenditure in an average day, but if you are counting calories and tracking your weight in the long term, it's pretty easy to figure out the number of calories that keeps you at a steady weight, and that's the number you expend in an average day.
RichWPX · 1 points · Posted at 19:43:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If I go to a food truck and get Thai or a 1.5 foot breaded schnitzel with like a ton of stuff such as pickles and onions on it plus some mystery sauce, I'm never gonna know what the cal count is.
You don't need to be exactly perfect, just close enough. You can list out the ingredients in an app like MyFitnessPal.
MyFitnessPal even has the menu items for most chains already loaded in. (Mom and pop type restaurants are harder, but you can just find something similar from a chain and use that entry instead..... for example, a bagel from the locally owned place by my house isn't gonna be that much different from an Einstein bros bagel)
RichWPX · 1 points · Posted at 20:32:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Thanks for taking my question seriously, I thought it might come off as a joke, but the second item was my lunch today and it's not like I carry a scale around. I'll try the app and see.
The way I look at it is this: it's better to make an educated guess and be a couple hundred cal off for one meal than it is to just be like "I can't be 100% accurate so fuck it, it's not worth doing at all"
Once you really start doing it, you'll be surprised at the calorie counts of some food you normally think of as "healthy". Like for example you'd have to eat about 5 whole oranges to match the calorie count of a single pint of orange juice. And you'll find the salad at place like Panera is made from "healthy" ingredients but the whole thing is over 1000 calories!
To put that in context, I'm 5'11 and started at about 235lb, I started using the app to target 1900 calories, lost a few pounds and leveled out, then I dropped it to 1600 calories a day.... and now I'm down to 217, but I've leveled out recently once again.... so now my options are either A.drop to a lower calorie count or B. Increase daily activity. Being a lazy fuck and having a 50hr/week job, eating less is definitely easier for me than doing more activity, so I'll probably drop to 1300 or 1400. (But increasing my activity is probably the healthier choice, since there are more benefits to that besides just weight loss)
RichWPX · 1 points · Posted at 02:53:21 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
According to this my goal is 2140 a day, will see how it goes. I put in today so far, a little guesswork like you said but let's see how it goes. Thanks for all the tips and sharing your experience!
No prob man.... just stick with it, even if you miss a day, even if you know you are gonna be way over budget that day, just keep putting it in..... and if you record your weight periodically it gives you a nice little line graph to help you see your progress
I love this app/website. I have been recently diagnosed with type 2 diabetes, and using MyFitnessPal has really helped me understand and limit the amount of carbs and sugar that I consume. Following its guidelines has led me to lose 10 pounds in about 6 weeks.
vswr · 4 points · Posted at 17:52:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
To expand on this, a slice of cheese is around 100 cals. Running a mile is 100 cals. Is it easier to not eat the cheese or run a mile for the same result? Changing how much you eat will make you lose weight; changing what you eat will make you healthy; exercising will make you fit. They are often done in tandem but they are separate.
Also, payment in advance. Don't eat a brownie and say you'll exercise it off later. Exercise it off now and then eat the brownie.
almost everything is just a guesstimate. there is no real way of knowing exactly how many calories you need or burn because there are so many different factors, it changes constantly, etc. you can approximate it (as mentioned before me) and just work from there! good luck and all the best. and as a side note, this may seem like an odd warning but do please try to not get obsessive over numbers. remember to live your life and not feel controlled by them.
mags87 · 2 points · Posted at 18:59:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
you then input everything you eat every day
This is by far the most important part. Everything you consume! The app only works if you are honest with it.
yeah definitely. Helps if you have a set of measuring cups and kitchen scales so you can be as accurate as possible. Doing this long enough definitely improves your ability to "eyeball" your portions more accurately.
Se7enLC · 2 points · Posted at 20:04:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I found that being aware of how many calories you're taking in helps a lot with self-control and motivation. I set a goal of 1500 calories/day, so everything eat is something else I can't eat. I could have 240 calories of soda, but that's a lot of dinner I have to cut out.
Similarly, it helps motivate me to exercise. If I bike to work and back, that's another 700 or so calories I have to work with.
It also has a rudimentary function that estimates calories burned from certain exercises in their database. Not perfect, but it's flexible.
If you have a 1900 calorie per day allowance and submit that you jogged about 200 calories worth in the exercise column, your daily allowance will increase to 2100 calories for the day.
Yeah, I'd felt that as well, but if you keep up with your weight submissions it kind of plays catch-up.
Not being crass but I was earnestly disappointed sex wasn't at least listed as a cardio activity. It might not seem wholly appropriate at first glance, but when you're having it pretty regularly and with enough sustained duration, it absolutely qualifies as an exercise.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:08:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yup, a valid point which nobody will dispute. However if someone, for example is 100lbs overweight, then getting to a point where regular exercise is actually manageable is the priority and to do this one must focus on diet.
Except it's incredibly difficult to continuously focus on diet longterm when you don't feel like it is consolidated by working out or playing sports or dance or something. Exercise and diet most effectively go hand in hand for whatever stage of fitness you are in. I think the big things that change over time are your methods (like first just running to burn calories and build up heart strength, and then lifting once you make substantial progress with your weight).
Yeah, again, i understand that. But my point is that someone who weighs like 300lbs can't run, it will destroy their knees. Priority#1 should be diet. Then bring on moderate exercise as soon as you feel able. Then gradually increase the intensity with which you exercise.
That article is assuming people who count calories are stuffing their face with unhealthy foods while maintaining a good CICO balance. If you have a calorie deficit you will lose weight over a sustained period of time. The goal shouldn't JUST be to have a calorie deficit forever, you have to manage your macros and eat a healthy balanced diet at the same time.
But then why count at all? Why not just IIFYM (if it fits your macros), without the part that doesn't work, just saying eat less food, since it's not like counting calories is any more accurate anyways,
Most such websites will only give a ballpark figure for how many calories someone requires on a daily basis based on their measurements.
My suggestion is to just keep a record of how many calories you consumed in 1 day, then find something you can drop. E.g. cutting out soda/juice for a week. Then progress to other changes week by week.
Well, that makes sense. Also, I cut out soda about a year ago. All it did was make me tired. I'm slowly easing out juice too. Someone once told me that what you drink matters just as much as what you eat. Because if you try to lost weight by drinking something every time you feel hungry at the wrong time, you are just trying to pacify an urge. Not ignore it. So, what I drink has been a conscious decision for a while. Now, on to the food and exercise.
Cut out all drinks that are not water. You're just drinking your calories. If you're hungry in between meals, drink a glass or two of water to fill up your stomach and hopefully stop that urge. Would you rather have a couple glasses of juice or a full meal? I went with the meal.
Switching to only drinking water literally changed my life and I dropped like ten pounds instantly. I was actually right smack dab in the middle of the healthy range for my height and gender, so I had to work to balance out my diet to regain some of that weight with food. I had no idea how many calories I was mindlessly drinking that had no nutritional value or any real worth for my body.
I also think that the constant sugary drinks dulled my taste buds, because within a few weeks of switching to just water, everything tasted better. My skin is clearer now, my teeth are whiter, and I have much less GI upset.
Just do it. It's difficult at first, but trust me it is so worth it. By the time you're a month in, all cravings for any other drinks stop and it's smooth sailing.
Ever since I started living by myself (out of dorms) I've basically only been drinking water for my liquid intake. What would be the effect of occasionally having a bit of whisky or a beer? For me it would probably be one serving every other day (finger or two of whisky, one beer 355ml).
Google the calories in a serving of your drink, figure out how many servings you'll be consuming, and do a bit of napkin math to see. You can then use Google to compare it to the calories in common foods that you eat routinely. A lot of time, I won't use the serving size, but I'll divide to get how many calories are in a single fluid ounce, and then multiply by the ounces I'm having. The math there just makes more sense to me that way as I find it easier to think in terms of the amount of ounces I'm having, not the number of servings (which can be arbitrary and vary per drink).
One serving every other day is 3-4 servings a week, which could add up to an extra meal or two a week that you're drinking. Depending on your total caloric intake and exercise level, something like this could cause you to gain weight over an extended period of time.
Basically, if you're close to maintenance already, this could push you over and put you at a small surplus each week, which could cause you to gain weight over time. How quickly that happens depends on how far over you're going. If you're not then you're good. I sacrificed alcohol and caffeine in my dedication to only drinking water. I probably get buzzed once or twice a year now. I understand that that's a tough sell for a lot of people. Do what feels right for you and what aligns most with your health and weight goals. If the booze is important to you, then you can cut out those calories from another source if weight loss is your goal. It's all fungible as long as you're meeting your nutritional needs and getting enough calories to maintain a healthy weight.
I think I bike enough to count out the beer or I can at least go and do something active after doing so, even if it's just long walk. Thanks for the information, much appreciated.
Beer has a lot of calories. I think one 355ml is about 150 to 200 calories depending on which one. Which can add up but if you're having one every couple of days you should comfortably burn that off with exercise.
I will never discourage someone from having a finger or two of single malt though ;)
Ah yeah, sadly i rarely get to drink the really good stuff as it is a bit pricey. Think a bottle of Lagavulin is about 70 bucks over here. Going to treat myself to a bottle when i get a job i think.
Liquor has calories in it as well, Google tells me roughly 100 calories per 1.5 oz serving of liquor, but it depends on which type. However, it's generally fewer calories than beer.
don't you dare say American whiskey is better than our glorious Scotch Whisky. Your dirty dirty bastard.
Kidding, i do like a nice bourbon. Jack Daniels is ass garbage though.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 18:19:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
agreed: Don't drink sugar!!
the food industry's job is to make money selling you food, not to ensure your health. The sooner you feel hungry and the more food you feel you need to eat helps them out a lot. There are no commercials for eating your veggies.
Wow, that's a really powerful point about there being no commercials for eating our veggies. It perfectly puts into perspective that the food industry shouldn't be dictating our diets and are pushing unhealthy messages. Thank you for that, I'll definitely be using that when talking about eating a healthy diet in the future.
I cut out caffeine too, so I personally didn't keep coffee. I'm not a very exciting coffee drinker anyway. I like it black, so it's not like I was dumping all kinds of stuff into it. I'd hazard a guess that black coffee is less bad for you than coffee that is filled with milk and sugar, but I'm not invested enough to look it up since I literally never drink it.
1 cup of standard black coffee with nothing added has ~20 calories, and the caffeine will speed up your metabolism just enough to burn those (and maybe a little more) off without doing anything extra. More activity will lead to slightly more burn. I don't think drinking more over the course of the day has any positive effect.
I don't think it's a huge deal, drinking or not drinking coffee. It's simply not necessary to cut out if someone doesn't want to.
My friend actually STARTED drinking coffee as apart of her weight loss regime because it keeps her fidgeting constantly and makes her legs restless. This might sound weird but constantly fidgeting and having restless leg syndrome (which of course can be simulated by caffeine) is a great way to burn an extra few hundred calories throughout the day.
rmphys · 2 points · Posted at 18:18:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Caffeine is also a mild appetite suppressant, and if you're a boredom eater (like me), coffee can scratch that itch.
bbdale · 1 points · Posted at 18:38:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not true. Plain coffee and tea have been a godsend for me while losing weight.
One thing that helps is understanding that (barring a medical condition, and air) there are no nutrients that your body needs every day.
Then realize there is a difference between being hungry and feeling the urge to eat. Hungry you can feel in your bones and throat. The habit of eating at a specific time comes from your stomach.
Juice has more calories than many sugars, so if you replaced soda with juice... yeah, you only made your problem worse. Good luck in the future! I recommend joining /r/loseit it's been really helpful to me
TDEE is Total Daily Energy Expenditure, or the total number of calories you burn every day.
The calculator will give you a rough estimate of your TDEE. If you eat 500 kcal less than that every day, you should lose 1 pound (0.5 kg) every week. If after a few weeks you aren't losing weight, it means that either the TDEE estimate was off for some reason, or you're not counting calories accurately. Either way, lower your caloric intake by another couple hundred kcal, until you are consistently losing 1 pound per week.
Be sure to exercise regularly as well. When you lose weight, you lose both fat and lean body mass (muscle, bone density, etc.) Losing lean body mass is pretty well never desirable, but exercising will cause your body to better conserve lean mass while losing fat.
You can't figure it out. Your body is different then every other body.
Factors:
Your weight
The amount of muscle you have
How active you are
Like 80 other variables you can't control
This is a terrible but possibly the best way of figuring out (about) how many calories your body burns. Measure everything you eat, all of the calories you take in, and then modify how much you take in until you don't gain or lose weight for a number of days in a row, that's how much you burn give or take.
Or better yet just myFitnesspal everything you eat and see how many calories lead to weight loss, then do that.
If you're feeling bolder and are a bit more dedicated to your weightloss, i HIGHLY recommend /r/keto. The keto diet is a great way of losing weight, in a healthy and scientifically backed manner. It'll test a lot of your "conventional wisdom" that has been untruely ingrained in you. (This is a great pun, but you won't get it until you /r/keto)
[deleted] · 8 points · Posted at 17:46:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I am looking to lose about 70lbs but calories are a mystery to me.
If you're that obese, it's not rocket science to get you to lose weight. You need to dramatically scale back your portions. Yeah throw in some walking and workout if you can, but you don't get 70lbs overweight without eating tons of shit all the time.
You're probably consuming thousands upon thousands of excess calories a day, something that would require hours for even a very fit person to burn off. And as you're not very fit at all, attempting to burn that off through cardio would be hellish. Scale your food portions back dramatically, eliminate all liquid calories and accept that your previous lifestyle was completely unsustainable.
Weigh your portions on a digital scale to get a sense od what you're eating and look up calories. Scale back from that.
I am not obese. I weigh 206.8. I have talked to my doctor. He said that I should look at 30-40lbs but my overall goal is 70. Also, my main problem is protein because I eat too much meat because my family and I grill alot. I don't eat chips and fries and junk food. I don't drink soda or tea or too much coffee. I eat plenty of fruits, veggies, nuts, etc. I eat the proper foods just too much of them. Which I can admit now. I am just looking to cut it back.
Obese is a medical term, it's not something you decide by looking in the mirror. If you weigh 206 as a female, you are almost certainly obese by medical standards.
For instance, a 5'4" woman who weighs 174lbs+ is obese.
Weighing 206lbs, you'd have to be at least 5'10" to be just a hair under obese.
Tell me if that helps. Also, burning fat and building muscle is the way to go. If there's a vanity aspect to your weight loss goals, having some muscle on your frame will make you look ten times better than just cutting all the fat and being scrawny.
I lost 50 pounds calorie counting. I decided 1700 calories would be my average intake. People think this means I was starving myself...simply not true. Instead of eating a cheeseburger and fries for lunch at 1000+ calories, a grilled chicken breast and veggies are 400. He'll, you can get Chipotle for under 500 if you don't eat the tortilla.
Then I ran 1 mile and lifted weights 3 times per week. Running a mile is about 150-200 calories and an hour if weight lifting can be double that. Most of your burned calories, though, come throughout your daily activities. If you sit on your ass all day, it's hard to overcome that in the gym. Standing up and walking around at least once per hour is necessary.
Eat X amount of calories a day. Not losing weight after a month? Eat less calories. It's that simple. The hardest part is being honest with yourself about what you're actually eating. "Small" glass of soda? Track it. Just a square of chocolate? Track it. Snacks add up. You need to start by acknowledging that.
I used that MyFitnessPal for a few months and got a good feel for how many calories there are in things. Then I deleted it, and now I just sort of "know" how much there is in everything I consume.
Lost 17 kg (37.5 lbs) in a year, and I am confident in saying 95% of that loss was done in the kitchen, not in a gym.
Good luck!
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:18:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The biggest factor in losing weight is diet. In fact, you don't have to ever light a single weight or step on a tread mill (though obviously it is recommended that you do that too). Weight is lost in the kitchen and MUSCLE is built in the gym. Do you want to do both or just one?
Re: diet, calories and sugar are the enemy. I cut sugar (pop, desserts, etc.) and lost weight every week consistently.
Step 1. Determine your caloric intake. This is not exact but a very close ballpark. If you're going on walks or hitting the gym you do not include that in the "activity portion." This activity portion is for your regular day existence. Working out or going on walks should not count towards this.
Step 2. Determine your goals. Do you only want to lose weight? Do you want to lose weight and put on some muscle/be lean? Do you want to be a body builder? Personal bias time - Lose weight/put on muscle. You won't accidentally become a bulky muscle-y woman. Every workout regiment a man can do a woman. Lift hard, lift heavy. Benchpress, deadlift, squat, etc. r/fitness is an excellent place to learn, well, anything you want to do. Just browse the "Getting Started" and "Frequently Asked Questions" portions of the sidebar. It has a tremendous amount of information and easy to understand.
Step 3. Diet. To lose weight you must eat less than the calculated amount from before. E.g. maintenance calories is 1800, eat 1500 or 1600. Keep in mind that the above amount is a ballpark. If you see no difference in weight after 2 weeks then adjust by another 100 calories. If you're lifting weights then you must incorporate protein or muscle gain will be limited/non existent after a short time. Learn the term IIFYM (If it fits your macros). Under the Frequently Asked Questions of r/fitness is a diet section, about a quarter of the way down the page. It explains how to calculate your protein intake, fat intake and carbohydrate intake. After you follow it's instruction you simply just check the nutritional info on food you purchase. Some tips here - Greek Yogurt is AWESOME in protein/fat/carb. Eggs are great. Cut out soda and fruit juices.
Best way is to use an online calculator to estimate your daily expenditure, then carefully track your calorie intake for a few weeks and compare. Tracking amout of calories burned from any particular activity is extremely difficult and varies person to person. But tracking how much you use in an average day and eating to fit that is a lot easier.
Most of our calories are burned simply by being alive, even if all you're doing is sitting or sleeping. There's more than one equation for that, as well as very long lists of how many calories are burned on average while performing different activities like jogging. In my experience, it is much more effective to have a healthy diet that you stick to, than to try and exercise off our candy intake. Like my professors said, "You can't outrun a bad diet."
994phij · 1 points · Posted at 17:31:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You can calculate the calories you eat much more accurately than the calories you burn. So you can use a website to get a guess of calories burned if you like, but it's just a guess.
The right way of doing it is with scales. You watch your weight for a while, if it's going down then decrease the calories you eat, if it's going up, then increase the calories you eat. Don't worry about how much you're burning each day, because, day to day variation averages out - if you have a big lifestyle change, just start watching your weight again.
Yeah the difference between just existing and exercising isn't that great as far as daily calories burned. You burn between 1500 and 2500 calories just to keep your heart beating, etc., and if you ran 3 miles you might burn 300-500 more calories I think. It's much easier to cut out 500 calories from your diet than to burn an extra 500 calories, especially if you're overweight to begin with.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:52:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's called "black body radiation" and for humans it is further called human body emission. Your skin emits heat at about 100 watts (joules / second). Your body digests food to keep warm.
In 24 hours we emit 100 * 60 60 * 24 = 8,640,000 Joules of energy or 2063 kcals (food calories).
If you eat more energy than you radiate, your body stores it up - hence your 70lbs of unused energy. Each pound of body fat is approximately 3500 kcals of energy, which is approx 14,653,800 Joules, the 70lbs is 1,025,766,000 Joules, enough to boil 3067 litres of water (6481.725 US Pints)
You can use more joules by doing some exercise but it takes a lot of exercise - running a marathon, for instance, is only 2500kcals more than doing nothing.
The 500 kcal deficit is the usual recommendation, and you would lose approx 1lb per week. It doesn't steadily decline though, but in steps as fat is replaced by water in your cells, and then the water is passed out - something that often makes dieters disheartened when it looks like their self discipline is for nothing when their weight doesn't change for 10 days.
Personally I have reduced my mass by 40lbs through food reduction alone. I didn't calorie count everything, I just got used to eating with discipline - it's the habits that are doing it. A bag of chips and a soda - 300kcals and for what, one is no less hungry after a bag of chips !
On a most basic level, just read the food lables and keep track. Get an app that tells you the calories in things that don't have lables and keep track of it. First day gauge where you are, then get a goal of under 2000 calories per day.when you realize a slice of pizza is 325 of those 2000 calories and that's 16% of your daily consumption it hurts, but the truth is you just have to keep under a 2000 calorie per day limit to lose the weight. Add exercise and you get a little more room, but not much. Exercise can build muscle though which will raise your daily metabolism. Just do your best and hone your diet slowly for the best long term effects ☺
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:03:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
EER will give you the best estimate of your daily calorie needs, but it is just an estimate.
To determine your calorie needs, you will need to maintain a consistent diet and exercise routine for a few weeks. Weigh yourself at the same time every day and track your weight loss/gain, then make adjustments to your routine based on your goals.
Agree with previous comments - use myfitnesspal if you want a quick
and mostly reliable way to calculate calorie intake.
Also agree that you should focus more on diet, and just commit to regular exercise. Even if you don't have the math down to every calorie, your lifestyle change will result in weight loss and a happier mind.
I you don't want to trust the foods others have entered as options on MFP - here is how it works:
That means you need a caloric deficit of 3500 to lose 1 lb of fat. (You burn calories ALL THE TIME - and even more if you have more muscle mass- so don't let this dissuade you).
To calculate calorie intake, you can use the nutrition labels (though these get rounded by a few calories according to these laws, or if you only have macronutrient (protein, carbohydrate, fats) composition for some reason:
Sugar alcohols are increasingly popular and count as carbs but usually "cost" less than 4 calories per gram. I've read stuff that says don't consume them, mostly on organic/paleo type blogs but I've also seen stuff that says they are super A#1.
As you mentioned, calculating calories burned is pretty difficult: every one has different Metabolic rates and exercise habits. You can get a rough estimate using a BMR (Basal Metabolic Rate) calculator anywhere online. Maybe try a few and average it out in your head. Again, this is less important than a change in diet and regular exercise.
I will also say that it's good to have a fat loss goal, but a lot of people get caught up in weight loss. If you want to commit to lifestyle change, I'd say learning your body composition is an important starting step to healthy body change. Losing 40 pounds outright may not be as great as losing 20 pounds and gaining some muscle in there. Lean muscle makes for a healthier person, and will help you burn more calories at rest. Definitely include weight training in your exercise regiment if you are of an age where there is no concern about growth platelets
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:05:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You can get very rough estimates that could be useful. For example, I used to do spinning classes and that would burn from 300 to 600 calories if you are fairly new at it. So, think of it as, it'll take you a full hour of spinning to burn a cheesecake. Once I realized that, I stopped eating cheesecakes.
Xaxxon · 1 points · Posted at 18:05:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The equation for weight change is:
change in weight = input calories - burned calories
If you know two you can calculate the third. To figure out your burn rate, track your weight and eating for a couple weeks and then you can figure out what you're burning.
3500 calories = 1 Ibs of fat, calories consumed = Calories expended as work + Calories stored as fat (if it's negative you are burning fat, congrats)
You can just google something like "calories burned by ____" and find out a rough idea, there are tons of online calculators that will give you a fine estimate based off height, weight, age, and gender. Running burns more than basically anything, but diet is the most important thing. A healthy diet and strength training is the best combo in my opinion.
cjbrehh · 1 points · Posted at 18:22:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
to add to what else ive seen. use an estimator to see how many calories a day will lose you say, a pound or two a week. this isnt exact as everyone is different. if it says for example 2100 calories a day should burn a pound. and you do that for 2 weeks and it doesnt work. go to 2000 or 1900 etc. keep going till it gets to where you want it to be. keep in mind that as you lose weight, its going to take less and less calories without adding any extra calorie burning.
The phrase you're looking for is "resting metabolic rate".
MHG73 · 1 points · Posted at 18:27:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you want to know an approximate number of calories you burn each day, google "TDEE calculator". TDEE is total daily energy expenditure. For just how many calories you burn without any excercise, google "BMR calculator". BMR is basal metabolic rate and it includes only how much energy it takes to keep you alive. A pound of fat is 3500 calories, so if you want to lose a pound per week, find your TDEE and subtract 500 calories and that's how much you should eat. Remember the calculator will only give you an approximate number, so if you notice it's not working out properly, lower your calories per day a bit more. Also, remember everyone is different and every process is different. Some people cut out all junk food from their diet and that works for them. Some people eat only junk food, but less, and lose weight. Some people like to eat one big meal to stay under their calorie goal, and others like to have many small meals and find that easier.
You might want to consider investing in an activity tracker like a Fitbit so it will calculate your calories burned for you! You can set up a fitness plan to reach a certain goal weight and as you burn calories, it will also tell you how many calories you have remaining for the day to keep you on track. I swear by mine, I love it.
Just approximate it: exercise burns roughly zero calories. I'm serious. Unless you're going to run for 2 hours, you're much better off just not drinking that soda instead of trying to exercise it off.
Kahzgul · 1 points · Posted at 18:36:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The great thing is you don't need to know that number. If you're not losing weight, you need to eat less than you're eating now in order to lose weight. It's that easy.
For most people, the hard part is knowing how to eat less. Snack on apples or unsalted nuts instead of candy bars or chips. Drink water instead of soda. Cook at home instead of going to fast food. Eat more greens and fewer breads. Drink less, and don't drink beer at all. Eat smaller portions. Use a smaller plate (seriously, this works), take smaller bites.
You want to find your basal metabolic rate (BMR). This is an estimate of the number of calories your body burns with no exercise at all (i.e. if you stay in bed all day). It's easy to find a BMR calculator online.
Any additional calories you burn are added to your BMR to find the total number of calories burned that day. These can come from working out, jogging, walking around the house etc...
The truth is exercise is important for health, but not so important for weight loss. The only thing that matters is that you consume fewer calories than you burn.
Find your basal metabolic rate. There are calculators that will do this online. Your BMR is an equation that takes into account or age, height, and sex. It's the calories your body burns by just being alive. If you were bed bound, in a coma, you'd burn that many calories.
If you are looking for intense weight loss (2-3 pounds a week) you eat your BMR worth of calories. Adding exercise makes you lose weight faster, but beware, too much exercising while doing an intense calorie deficit can backfire because it's super easy to binge because you're hungry.
To get a real value requires special equipment that measures your oxygen intake and CO2 output.
The fancy explanation uses experimental data and statistical models to get as close as possible to your true resting caloric consumption.
Here is the easy way: Assume your body consumes 10 times your weight in calories plus the estimated calories for actual exercise. You can get those estimated calories from apps like MyFitnessPal. This approach wilo have about 20% error.
So if you do 300 calories of cardio and weigh 200lbs, you will have consumed about 2300 calories that day.
TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, it's an estimate on how many calories you burn daily. Here's a simple calculator. All you have to do is gender, age, height, weight, and activity level. It will give you an estimate on what you are burning a day.
MyFitnessPal is amazing because if you try and estimate your calories in without recording them you are probably eating more than you think. Record what you eat, it doesn't take very long, a minute or two per meal, I do it right after I eat anything.
With those two tools you can start making progress! One thing I've found is if you're having trouble losing weight and you get discourage easily do not weight yourself every day, do it weekly, it's easier to see the progress that way.
Another huge help to me was getting a fitbit. I never realized how sedentary I can be until I saw how many steps I get a day. I shoot for 10k a day, on a lazy day I can have only 2k. From my experience, if I get that 10k a day I'm burning 500 calories more than if I only get 3-5k. The point of this paragraph is, that activity is good, even if its only walking, it will add up and make a big difference in the long run.
The fitbit I have also has a heartrate monitor on it, so it knows my weight, age, height, activity level (pedometer), and heart rate, so as I understand it it's giving me a more accurate calorie burn estimate than the TDEE. It's included right on the watch, how many steps I took and how many calories I've burned.
You can also connect your fitbit and MyFitnessPal, so MFP will know if you've been extra active it will update and say you've earned 300 extra calories from exercise today. I also have the fitbit scale, so I don't mind weighing myself daily, because I can log into fitbit and see the trend of my weight going down, even if it doesn't go down every day, over the course of the weeks it's generally going down.
I love my fitbit, fitbit scale, and myfitnesspal combo. It makes it all so much easier, at least to me. One last tip, if you're new to calories, as I understand it 3500 calories in a lb of fat, so you want to be at ~3500 calorie deficit for the week to lose a pound.
Estimating calories burned in a workout is impossible to do accurately. Devices like fitbit (which I use) usually over shoot it. I never eat back calories like that. The most I do is a protein shake after weights or a strenuous hike.
As for calculating your stagnant calorie rate, most online calculators are pretty good. It's a great place to start and you can use weight lost to fine tune it from there. Start by tracking everything for a few weeks. The FAQ on r/loseit goes into more detail.
In all honesty you have to go to bed a little hungry. You have to create a calorie deficit somehow. I got BIG results by replacing breakfast and lunch with a shitty meal replacement bar, 2 snacks a day of just raw veggies and a carefully portioned out and measured dinner. I got a little kitchen scale for that. I was super fucking hungry at first, then just a little hungry. Once i dropped the weight, i switched to three carefully measured meals a day and three snacks of either fruit or veg. My apetite changed and now if i have a cheat meal i cant eat nearly as much as i used to. It takes discipline and to retrain your appetite. But be prepared to be a little hungry.
Good luck with the dieting! I need to get back into it, but don't currently have the motivation.
It's really all about how many calories you consume. Exercise and everything else help, but will not make or break losing weight.
When I successfully lost weight, I focused on a few things.
No alcohol. Or very little. Like one drink a week. If that. The less you drink the better off you will be.
Try to avoid "empty" calories. Basically anything that has a high calorie count and no other value. White bread is my default example. It's literally just straight carbs, no real protein or vitamins.
Fiber is good. Find things with lots of fiber. They tend to be healthy, they fill you up and you stay full. You can go overboard, but eating a salad for lunch everyday with minimal waste (croutons are OK, but not many... be aware of whats in the dressing) will keep you full.
Honestly, my least favorite part of dieting was the repetition... Try to find new recipes that are healthy. Spicy food is always a good choice!
Keep at it, don't let one bad day derail you. Sadly, it's an entire lifestyle change and it's HARD.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:11:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Generally, 1lb of fat = 3500 calories. So in order to lose 1lb you need to have a defecit (either through exercise or nutrition) of 3500 calories. 500 calorie defecit each day = 1lb lost per week (more or less). There are plenty of subs for weight loss, such as r/loseit. There are also many for nutrition and calorie counting, r/1500isplentyr/1200isplenty and for specific diets such as r/keto (if you're unsure what that is, it's all explained over there!) I highly recommend checking them out.
Rykurex · 1 points · Posted at 19:15:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Another approach you could take to changing your eating habits is to only eat single ingredient foods. This will force you to stop eating processed stuff and you will likely move to a healthier weight.
I don't mean to eat only one ingredient though, you can cook "rice and beans" for example, it doesn't have to be one or the other. This approach really helps people who don't like to calorie count.
There is no accurate way for the average consumer to calculate either how many calories they have obtained from their food or how many calories they have burned during their day.
Losing weight is more about what you eat than how much exercise you're getting.
You absolutely should exercise, but mainly because NOT doing so has some pretty harsh consequences for your heart and lungs.
Even if you super super bulk up from lots of weight lifting, it'll only increase your TDEE a couple hundred calories per day. You'd have to be literally training like Michael Phelps to actually need an 8000/day diet. I don't think any normal person with a day job can sustain that or wants to attempt to, if they're sane.
Instead, you should change what's going in your face hole.
Carbs and especially refined sugars make you hungry. Try it sometime, go get a box of Pop Tarts, take a gander at the nutrition facts on the back (400 calories per pastry, christ almighty), and go ahead and eat a Pop Tart. Hell, eat two.
Now start a stopwatch and sit back. See how long it takes before you get the urge to eat.
Tomorrow, cook yourself up some chicken and broccoli. Do whatever math you find necessary to equalize the calories with the amount of calories you ate in Pop Tarts previously.
Repeat the experiment. See how long it takes for you to get hungry. Also compare how you feel after eating it.
What you will likely find is that:
meat and veggies stretch calories considerably further than carbs/processed sugary shit (and yes, technically veggies have carbs in them, but in very small amounts that are unrefined as well)
eating refined carbs satisfies the "carb craving" but doesn't satiate hunger. You still want to eat again soon after.
tl;dr - want to lose weight and look like someone who runs across the African savannah to chase down his dinner? Start eating like him. Meat and veggies, the odd occasional fruit maybe, but mostly meat.
Korhaka · 1 points · Posted at 19:23:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I just go with the approximation of 1KG weight loss per day, then anything I eat reduces that.
hezur6 · 1 points · Posted at 19:25:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You got many good replies already but basal metabolical rate (aka the amount you burn by just existing) is estimated to be around 60-80 calories per hour, varying per person and going up the heavier you are. That means a neutral diet to keep your current weight once you're health is usually around 1500-2000, assuming you live a pretty sedentary life.
Then each hour walking burns 300-400 depending on your pace, running and swimming are closer to the 500-700 mark.
Then for some final considerations, each gram of protein/carbs equals 4 calories, each gram of fat equals 9. So to lose 1kg your expenditures minus your intake should equal 9000 calories. A recommended pace to lose weight is 1/2kg a week, so 4500 calories / 7 days = around 650 a day. This is everything MyFitnessPal will consider when it recommends you the usual 1600 calorie daily limit, as it'll assume you'll burn around 2300 ;)
dude, ill tell you the best advice i have for this, having lsot 70lbs at one point myself. stop worrying about counting calories, stop worrying about weighing yourself, stop worrying about counting calories burned. just start eating healthier shit and work as hard as you can when you work out, i guarantee you start seeing results.
all that counting just makes the whole things seem more difficult than it is. and weighing yourself just makes the process seem slower than it really is (because as you lose fat you gain muscle, and throws your numbers off). just find something that is fun, and gets your heart rate up, and do the shit out of it while making healthier eating choices in general, and you will lose weight, and it wont suck as much as it does if you put too much thought into the whole thing.
zexez · 1 points · Posted at 19:32:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Depending on your current weight, age and gender your body consumes a set amount of calories (almost all that you eat). There are websites you can use to plug in you weight, age and gender and your target weight and it knows how much you will burn naturally and tell you the exact amount of calories you should eat to meet your goals. Good luck :)
Hey! I recently lost ~17 pounds and I want to share the thought that's really kept me going:
This isn't a temporary diet. It's a lifestyle change. I'm learning how to eat right and take care of myself for the rest of my life, so I better find ways to enjoy it while I do. And I have! And I feel so much better.
It can be frustrating, but it's worth it. Do it for you.
Ryan526 · 1 points · Posted at 19:38:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Fuck counting calories. Do OMAD ( one meal a day ). It's hard at first but it's tough to overeat calories when it's only 1 meal and you don't need to worry about counting calories.
Calories are measured using a "bomb calorimeter" and actually burning the substrate and measuring the energy produced (the energy needed to raise one gram of water one degree centigrade). But bodies and food are much more complicated than that. The important thing would be to learn the difference between carbohydrates, protein and fat and to weigh your portions with a kitchen scale. Journaling your intake will give you insight into what works with your body to reach your goals. Good luck.
Yds · 1 points · Posted at 19:40:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you haven't done so yet, go to /r/loseit for information and support.
Japjer · 1 points · Posted at 19:42:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Download Noom.
On average, 1800-2000 calories per day is what lets you maintain your weight. Anything less than that will cause you to lose weight.
If you eat 1600 calories per day, with no excersize, you can lose a pound every 9 days or so. 1500 calories will get you one pound per week.
Noom is free and has the calorie count for damn near every food there is.
I just purchased a Whoop strap - a fitness band much more tuned to your body than an apple watch or fitbit. I know exactly how many calories my body burns everyday, and what I am capable of the next day based on the sleep I get. I use the Whoop to track calories out, and MyFitnessPal to track calories in, and I get a very complete picture of what my deficit is. If you can afford the Whoop, I highly recommend it.
Start checking packaging for calorie counts and weighing yourself. Packaging isn't a perfect calorie count, but they tend to be good enough. By weighing yourself regularly (preferably daily), you can start to get a feel for what it takes you to lose weight.
Everyone has a body that works differently. It's really hard to figure out what your body did. Even if you find the average prole both, it's not going to be that applicable to you.
Unless you have time and money to burn, the best course of action is to record your weights daily (or twice a day if you'd like) and change your eating habits. I suggest eating more veggies.
It's highly probable that you can treat eating veggies as an all you can eat buffet and still be eating fewer calories than you are currently. Just don't ruin the veggies by adding cheese and butter and all the other things people do to ruin the healthy aspects of them.
You'll lose weight in the kitchen not the gym. Don't drink your calories.
geak78 · 1 points · Posted at 19:57:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
They have nice online calculators for that. The larger you are the more calories it takes to survive. So if you lose a significant amount of weight you'll actually need less calories every day.
For example at my current weight I burn around 3600 calories according to that link. If I dropped 50 pounds I'd only burn 3000.
typhyr · 1 points · Posted at 19:57:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
every burns a base amount of calories per day even if they laid down perfectly still. this is because the body is still doing work, and keeping a person warm is really "expensive" energy-wise. this is caled the base metabolic rate, or BMR. it only varies a little bit with genetics, so it's pretty easy to estimate it with some online calculators. they take in your height, weight, and activity level and you'll see about how many calories you burn in a day.
your best bet is to try to eat about 500 calories lower than that per day. this yields a weight loss of one pound per week (since a pound of fat is roughly 3500 calories). obviously this varies since your daily routine is likely different every day, and thus your activity level isn't really static. but it's still a good baseline to follow. make sure you update your BMR every so often (i did so every 5 pounds, but even that wasn't a huge difference).
c-fox · 1 points · Posted at 19:59:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Weight loss is 90% diet. 10% exercise.
nagol93 · 15 points · Posted at 17:40:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So, I have a semi-related question.
Lets say I 'burn' 50lbs of fat. Ware dose all that mass go? You cant destroy matter so it must go somewhere. Do you poop it out? pee it out? sweat it out? breath it out?
Id have thought everyone was at least aware of the latter. The fact a fair amount of it is expelled through breath is a bit lesser known. Still, I remembered that from middle school biology.
cdnball · 10 points · Posted at 18:07:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
when you burn fat (which is essentially several sugar molecules combined together), you are breaking the molecule back into its constituent parts - H2O and CO2.
Roughly 80% of the mass is CO2, and the other 20% is H20. Some of the H20 is expelled through the lungs, some through sweat, and some through urine.
But the main point here is that you breath out roughly 80% of the mass as CO2. It comes out of your lungs!
So get your body moving, get your metabolism churning, and your cells and lungs will do the rest.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:16:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
cdnball · 1 points · Posted at 19:22:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And where does glycerol come from? Sorry I may have skipped a few steps in the explanation, but all food energy derives from plant-produced sugars at some point.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 20:12:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
cdnball · 1 points · Posted at 20:21:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
K, I get it. No I didn't mean literally, but the fact they trace back to originally from sugar formed from photosynthesis.
Sargos · 3 points · Posted at 18:07:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The matter turns into energy and a few byproducts. You lose energy through heat, movement, etc. Fat cells typically stick around even after they are empty. They are just really tiny like an uninflated balloon. After many months of being empty they are sometimes detached and excreted through urine.
Not every food is just calories in. If you eat excessive sugar it is broken down by insulin into body fat. Eating healthy is way more imoportant than exercising. People didnt even work out that much before processed foods where produced.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 20:43:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That doesn't really matter. If you eat less than you burn you'll be in a state where you will be burning fat faster than you are putting it on because of insulin.
You are right but you would be extremely hungry and realistically you will want to eat more. Eating sugary messes up your hunger sense.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 21:08:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But it's still just calories in in terms of weight loss, which is the point of the thread. People need to stop demonizing sugar and stop pretending the only way to lose weight is to eat chicken and rice every day. One extreme or the other will never lead to weight loss in the long term.
So thermodynamics aren't violated, and obv this is physically true, but in practice, the # of calories on a food label aren't the # that every body absorbs into a usable state every time that food is digested. Also, the # of calories "burned off" is basically impossible to measure/predict. The most precise measurement/estimate is to use doubly labeled water on people eating carefully massed foods and living inside chambers that very precisely measure heat and CO2/oxygen.
This is very unlike TDEE calculators, nutrition labels, and estimates of how much 30 minutes of running at 8:00/mile pace burns off. These are really shitty estimates, and ignore the biggest impact that food, exercise, and sleep can have, which is to change the hormonal state within a person. When we inject small amounts of testosterone into a broad test group of male subjects, it doesn't matter what they eat, they gain muscle and lose fat.
Most people aren't interested in gaining or losing weight. If they were, then just eat/drink/sweat/pee/poop until you reach the desired weight. Most people are interested in decreasing their body fat percentages and/or gaining muscle mass. With the real goal in mind, calories of foods become much less important as trying to make a "recipe" that improves internal hormonal state, which forces lower body fat percentage with very little regard to amount or quality of food.
Most people are interested in decreasing their body fat percentages and/or gaining muscle mass.
The human body still burns primarily fat first because they contain more calories per unit mass. It breaks down muscle due in part to muscles naturally atrophying from inactivity. Mostly though muscle gets metabolized to supply the body with amino acids in poorly planned diets.
Also, there seems to be a cephalic response to sweet things, so merely tasting/expecting something really sweet can spike insulin:
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/406042 "The preabsorptive or cephalic phase insulin response, which lasts for ~10 min, is initiated by meal ingestion, as has been demonstrated in humans and rats"
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18556090 "In conclusion, the current data suggest that the sweeteners sucrose and saccharin activate a CPIR even when applied to the oral cavity only."
The human body still burns primarily fat first because they contain more calories per unit mass.
This is a really poorly-worded, imprecise, mostly-false sentence that should never have been written. Try re-writing what you're trying to say with a lot more precision, and we can have a more meaningful conversation.
Sure, but it's a hell of a lot easier to maintain your energy and feel full when you're eating a balanced healthy diet than 2000 calories of Snickers and Twinkies.
then again if you run 5k every day theres nothing wrong with eating carbs. i know quite a few people that do both a lot of sports and eat very few carbs. while this can work carbs are way better while doing anyhitng physical
Flucks · 1 points · Posted at 19:58:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Very true. I am running over 20 miles a week and eating a 1700 calorie a day paelo diet. I have lost 13 lbs in two weeks and I am not a big dude.
1700 calories/day seems extremely little with that sort of exercise. im eating ~2200 a day with about 40min walking every day to and from school and im neither gaining nor losing any weight
Flucks · 1 points · Posted at 20:34:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's not great, but I wanted to slim down to run faster and farther. At 6'1 I still have about 10 more lbs to go to get to my goal of 185. I did have a Kind bar last Saturday before a race, though. I don't think I would have made it if I hadn't.
I don't disagree, it's just that most people seem to think that if their tummy rumbles one time, it means they are literally starving and will die if they don't cram in as much food as possible in the next 20 minutes.
people need to stop being such fucking whiny babies. You wont be hurt if your stomach rumbles, and you wont be hurt if you're feeling hungry. So stop crying and work through it.
Sav_ij · 1 points · Posted at 18:41:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
this is just mental though. for some reason people have equated "i could physically hold more food" to "im hungry". somehow people think that if they could eat then theyre hungry. take my fat family for example theyll eat like 2-3 pieces of pizza and every now and then ill try and steer them in the right direction and ask them if they need the 4th pieces and theyll actually say im still hungry like no you arent you clearly just dont know what hunger is anymore
This exactly. People (on this site especially) love to over simplify the concept of weight loss. For most people it really does matter what they are eating, and not purely how many calories it contains.
PatSays · 1 points · Posted at 18:41:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I find that difficult to believe. You really think there is no physiological response to the type of calorie being eaten that can impact one's weight? Where are you getting this idea from?
You need specific micronutrients certainly (which generally are not a source of calories), but you can lose weight by eating twinkies if you keep your mineral and vitamin intake at appropriate levels.
Relevant article He did ingest a protein shake too, as you need protein to live. But in general it's calories in vs calories out. Also it's REALLY goddamned hard to NOT eat protein.... and him living on Twinkies/snack cakes is not something people try to do.
PatSays · 1 points · Posted at 00:17:05 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I have read about that study before. I accept that calories in versus calories out matters. What I question is that your diet has no physiological consequences on weight. I think it is common knowledge that hormone changes can cause weight gain or loss. It's not difficult for me to imagine that your diet can impact your hormone levels either. None of that is "psychological" in nature as far as I am aware.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 18:49:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No it still matters what is being eaten. Different calories are metabolized in different ways with different effiencies, and with some limits on these metabolic pathways as well.
Yes it's calories in minus calories out, however no one gets exactly the calories listed on a package. There is differences in metabolism and what is used and when.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 18:43:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Body weight is 100% calories in/out, but when a person is actually trying to lose weight there is a huge difference in how those calories are utilized and their effect on satiety.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:52:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
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[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:53:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
While yes this is factually true, I've always hated this. I could eat 2 Big Macs everyday and nothing else and likely lose weight. That does not mean that that's a healthy way to live.
[deleted] · 164 points · Posted at 15:22:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah but the idea isn't lose weight and be healthy, just lose weight.
This guy gets it. Been eating microwave corndogs for the last two weeks and I'm down 30 pounds.
[deleted] · 13 points · Posted at 18:00:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My buddy was saying the other day if he had 3 wishes he'd wish to be able to eat whatever he wanted and not gain weight. I told him he could already do that, it's the quantity he's gotta look out for. I lost over 100lbs eating pretty healthy food in small quantities with huge quantities of liquor.
I lost 40 pounds eating fast food and diet soda, probably would have gotten scurvy if it wasn't for daily multivitamins. Probably don't have the best choleterol either.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 18:06:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yep, it's not even hard. Most fast food places gave their caloric info right on the menu, online in PDF form, and keep updated in apps too.
Then just smoke cigarettes. They're good appetite suppressants.
[deleted] · -1 points · Posted at 18:22:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There are appetite suppressants that won't give you cancer, but sure feel free to make a ridiculous meaningless point. I mean this is reddit, you're practically encouraged to be stupid.
I'm confused on why you would hate on a pure fact. Losing weight and eating healthy are two entirely separate issues, both of which are very simple concepts. Want to eat healthy? Eat an apple instead of a big mac. Want to lose weight? Eat 2000 calories a day instead of 3000. Want to do both? Do both...
According to thyroids.com the majority of weight gained during thyroid conditions is due to water and sodium retention. And even then you're talking 10 pounds or so at most.
No that's wrong. Do you think a medical condition would prevent weight loss if the person was stranded on a desert island?
Those types of medical conditions affect your Basal Metabolic Rate by 10 to 15%... which is very easy to overcome just by eating the right amount for YOU, personally... Those people just have to eat a little less each day than someone without those conditions.
ahh I get it so say I were obese and my bmr is 2000. With the medical condition it might be 1700 instead. Which might mean eating less but weight loss is still certainly doable.
No, but there are people that become insanely tired/lethargic if they are in a calorie deficit.
The whole "genetics" excuse has some merit.
aizxy · 8 points · Posted at 19:33:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Literally everyone is more tired and lethargic when on a calorie deficit. There are degrees to how much you'll be affected, but it just comes with the territory.
You're just going to have to decide what is more important to you, losing weight or avoiding feeling lethargic.
Most likely cause of that is spiking insulin, which generally moves blood sugar into fat/muscle, even if you're blood sugar isn't doing so well due to a low calorie deficit. Since you always have some blood sugar, insulin could conceivably have you gaining fat while possibly losing other body mass, and you'll feel like crap.
Also, there seems to be a cephalic response to sweet things, so merely tasting/expecting something really sweet can spike insulin:
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/406042 "The preabsorptive or cephalic phase insulin response, which lasts for ~10 min, is initiated by meal ingestion, as has been demonstrated in humans and rats"
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18556090 "In conclusion, the current data suggest that the sweeteners sucrose and saccharin activate a CPIR even when applied to the oral cavity only."
If you consume fewer calories than you burn off, you will lose weight.
I've highlighted the operative word for you. Notice he didn't say you will likely lose weight unless you have x disorder. He said confidently you will lose weight if you burn more calories than you consume. No exceptions.
[deleted] · 16 points · Posted at 15:58:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Which is why it's important to acknowledge it's as simple as calories in/out, but you should really eat things that fill you up like meat and vegetables so you aren't starving.
DHSean · 4 points · Posted at 15:29:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
DHSean · 1 points · Posted at 16:51:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Walking the plank one tooth at a time
Nefara · 1 points · Posted at 20:11:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I really don't either, but the trick is to never eat them on their own. Mix them into stews, sauces and other dishes so that their taste is always masked by the yummy stuff. Broccoli, carrots and green beans mixed into teriyaki egg fried rice is delicious, and you can mix spinach into pasta alfredo without it being offensive. Stews also have a great homogenizing effect where all of the tastes meld together, so even if you don't like something like celery on its own, mixed together in something like chicken noodle soup with onions and other veggies it can actually be quite nice.
It depends though. There was that professor who went on the McDonald's diet to prove that Supersize Me was wrong, and he both lost weight and became healthier.
While enjoying his weight loss, Cisna is particularly excited about the results of his blood tests: He says his total cholesterol dropped from 249 to 190, including a 25 percent decrease in his LDL or “bad cholesterol.” Despite concerns that he was eating too much salt, Cisna said his sodium levels and blood pressure are normal.
As Cisna first told TODAY in January, he followed a 2,000 calorie diet, using the daily recommended allowances for carbohydrates, proteins, sugar and fat; and he walked 45 minutes a day.
Ah....so he played by a completely different set of rules than the Supersize Me guy. Apples & Oranges.
I've never seen Supersize Me, but didn't he have a few rules that he set for himself? For example, if they asked him if he wanted to try a certain meal or if they asked if he wanted to Super Size it he had to say yes?
Basically supersize me forced him to eat way more than he needed to eat, and he had to finish every meal, even if he was full. In the movie he throws up the first time he supersized a meal because he wasn't allowed to stop until it was finished. And it was a lot of food.
You're absolutely right, but Supersize Me blamed primarily (or at the very least equally) the quality of food, not the quantity of food, for his decline in health.
Rathum · 1 points · Posted at 18:47:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
IIRC, that's what it was. There has been criticism that it was not possible for him to gain as much wait as he did with the meals he claims he ate. He's never released his food logs AFAIK.
(copy and paste from above) Source He not only lost weight:
While enjoying his weight loss, Cisna is particularly excited about the results of his blood tests: He says his total cholesterol dropped from 249 to 190, including a 25 percent decrease in his LDL or “bad cholesterol.” Despite concerns that he was eating too much salt, Cisna said his sodium levels and blood pressure are normal.
Two Big Macs really isn't even that much calorifically. I understand what you're trying to say, but what you really just said is "eating about 1000 calories a day as a fully grown adult isn't a healthy way to live"... no it isn't, regardless of the source of those calories.
Being at a healthy weight is the biggest dietary barrier to good health in the western world. If you ate 2 Big Macs and a multivitamin every day I'd expect you to live on average longer than someone who eats 3500 calories of spinach a day (unless they actually burn it all off).
Depends on your goals my man. Most people don't consider their goals beyond "I want to lose weight."
If that's your goal, calories in < calories out = weight loss.
To be honest most people won't stick to it long enough to get past "I've lost some weight but am still kinda fat" anyway, so as long as they're not missing out on vital vitamins and whatnot, it won't really matter. Those who do want to stick with it as a lifestyle change will seek out better knowledge than a one sentence post on reddit.
Druid51 · 1 points · Posted at 18:44:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Being overweight by a large margin is probably more unhealthy than a diet of nothing but 2 Big Macs a day and being at a healthy weight.
The trick is to replace calorie-dense, nutritionally empty foods (like red meats, sweets, sodas, processed grains and dairy) with lower calorie, nutritionally rich foods (fruits and especially vegetables). That way you can eat the same volume of food (and therefore trick your body into feeling full) while drastically reducing calories and at the same time improving nutrition intake.
xahsz · 1 points · Posted at 09:46:15 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Red meat and dairy are miles away from "nutritionally empty".
Guess and check... Set a target to lose 2 pounds of fat per week. If you lose less than that adjust down your daily caloric intake, if you lose more adjust up. Keep adjusting until you're losing at the rate you want to lose at.
Most people don't understand resting metabolic rate is the vast majority of calories burned during a day, and is much higher than what you will get from daily exercise.
This doesn't mean don't exercise, because every bit counts.
The trick to remember is different people will burn different amount of calories for the same activities.
Geta-Ve · 2 points · Posted at 20:20:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Honestly, for anyone curious; this statement is nothing more than a nicer way of saying 'stop fucking eating so much you idiot'.
Unless you're an athlete or or some other such person where your physical state is your job, then counting calories is an unneeded stress in your life.
Exercise, diet, and portion control are king. All three can bi maintained very simply, provided you work on one important factor, your motivation and / or will power.
Exercise: walk, run, bike, sports, yard work, house work, job related physical activity, etc. these are the easiest ways to get exercise.
Diet: cut out as much sugar as is reasonable. Pop is the easiest consumable form of sugar for most people, so that is a great place to start. If you don't want to cut it out completely then have one a day. Save it for dinner time or some other special time in the day. Let the singular coke be a treat. And that goes with most bad food. Convert it from the norm to something special. Worth saving. Other than that, use your common sense, and be honest with yourself, if you know it's probably not the greatest, then either don't eat it, or save it for another time.
Portion Control: simplest thing to change. Get smaller dishes. You'll be very surprised by what fills you when your dishes simply don't hold as much. If you're able, throw out all of your large dishes, or store them away from easy access.
Lastly, will power. I can only speak for myself in this regard, but I know this was the biggest issue for my weight loss journey. I'd went through 30 years of my life being unmedicated for mental illness; when I got medicated and started a physical job both things came together to help me lose over 90lbs. And during that time I wasn't even doing any portion control or changing my diet. But I was working my fucking ass off. Quite literally.
And remember, just because the solutions are simple, it doesn't mean the journey will be easy. But often times what is easy is not right. And what's right takes the most effort but yields the biggest rewards.
thank you. and while metabolic rate will indeed vary between two individuals, "your thyroid" doesn't make you fat. it's all the food you eat that's doing that.
Sargos · 5 points · Posted at 18:10:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If your thyroid makes you excessively hungry then you will eat more food. Blaming the food in that case is not helpful as it's the increased intake of food due to your thyroid that causes the increased weight.
It's like saying "Mental illness linked to gun ownership doesn't kill people, only bullets kill people."
so eat less. 200 calories per day is roughly = to one soda. if i had a medical condition that affected my metabolism i'd be even MORE aware of what i put in my body, i wouldn't just shrug and supersize it cause of my "thyroid condition."
...and yet your edit acknowledges that "technically" i was right. make up your mind.
and a 200 calorie swing is not nearly as big as you think. certainly not big enough to justify obesity due to an easily diagnosed and treatable medical condition.
still...i wasn't wrong. calories dictate weight gain/loss. abnormal thyroid is a factor in some people -- a factor to overcome by being even MORE diligent about what you eat, not less.
You said your thyroid won't make you fat. At 20lbs extra a year for the exact same amount of work as a person without the issue, I would argue it does contribute to the weight gain.
metabolism varies from person to person; obviously the thryoid plays a part. in my experience, people overstate it and use it as a convenient excuse to eat chicken fried steak and wash it down with 30 oz of soda.
But also keep in mind that would be for untreated thyroid conditions. If you're on medication to regulate your thyroid then you're right back to being within a normal range again.
rmphys · 1 points · Posted at 18:25:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'd say it's pretty insignificant. That's less than caloric needs can vary by person without thyroid imbalances.
While technically true, this is a gross oversimplification. The macro and micro nutrient composition of your food affects your metabolism, how the food is stored, and your satiety.
it's not that gross. Your body may store different foods more than others but over a sustained period of time, if there is a calorie deficit, you will lose weight.
This still is dependent on a number of things. People have had huge weight losses following a rebalancing of bacteria in their digestive tracts. It's not just as simple as intake < outtake for everyone.
If there you have a straight calorie deficiency then technically, yes, you lose weight, but the amount of calories your body consumes is variable in addition to how people vary in how many calories they use.
yes, it literally is as simple as intake < outtake. All of your comments are about sustaining the weight loss, or optimizing the amount of weight lost, etc.
regardless of who you are, what your genetic makeup is, or literally any biological factor, if you eat less calories than you burn, you will lose weight.
When it comes to losing weight, of course on an individual level, that is objectively the best way to lose weight. However, this doesn't describe what intake even is, because people process food with varying rates of efficiency - there's plenty of people that just eat more but there's people who eat an average amount and simply digest the energy more efficiently.
If there you have a straight calorie deficiency then technically, yes, you lose weight
that's all OP is trying to say. and this statement is true. complicating factors like "amount of effective calories vs. amount of labeled calories" etc. affect estimation of intake, but they don't change the truth of the advice itself.
a financial equivalent for this advice would be "make more money than you spend and you'll always be out of debt." "real world complications" make it difficult to adhere to that maxim. as advice itself, the maxim may not be useful to many people. regardless, the maxim itself is incontrovertibly true.
i wasn't aware of the new research into the CMB; thanks for pointing it out.
i never said that matter must be conserved in all systems. the human body, though, doesn't have a means of converting between matter and energy. i'm not aware of any nuclear fission or fusion processes occurring in biochemical reactions. "biophoton" emission (which appears to be a rather nebulous topic in and of itself) isn't evidence of creation or destruction of matter. more specifically, photon emission itself (for example, of the sort seen in luciferase/luciferin bioluminescence) doesn't constitute creation or destruction of matter. nuclei aren't being broken down or built up inside a human body.
i realize that i may have been a bit ambitious in attempting to portray the list of things i did as "incontrovertible truths," but pedantic quibbling about the finer points of their validity doesn't disprove the idea that they're virtually nomothetic propositions. CICO is also a nomothetic proposition.
just a few thoughts on your thoughts.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 22:37:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
i submit that i may have been foolish or bullheaded in attempting to declare some "bulletproof truths." the existence of any such truths is ultimately only ancillary to the original question i was discussing, which is whether or not "calories in < calories out = weight loss" is true or not.
i have to thank you for bringing up some of the points you did; i never (until now) actually stopped to consider the relativistic idea of the mass-energy equivalence and its implications on photon emission, or "matter creation" outside of nuclear reactions.
i still hold that nuclear reactions are definitely not happening (to any significant extent) inside human bodies. as a biologist, photon emission in biological reactions is considered almost exclusively in terms of excitation and subsequent return of electrons to ground states. here's an example for the luciferase system i mentioned earlier. i guess when i said that "matter" is not created, i meant that atoms are not being created de novo inside human beings, as you can see in that mechanism. relativistic mass as a concept in and of itself is not without its own controversy. there are few, if any, biological frameworks that account for anything other than invariant mass. the invariant, rest mass of a biological system is not altered by any of the reactions that occur within it.
science is certainly not a matter of faith, and the discoveries of science are important precisely because they are true regardless of whether or not people choose to "believe" in them. i wasn't trying to take up the mantle of nature's scion or whatever.
finally, i don't think that it's always necessary that we as a society discuss the finer points of science. macroscopic, gross phenomena may not be as reductively explanatory as more nuanced treatments, but that doesn't make them any less true. indeed, i find that granular phenomena are often easier for people to understand. launching into discussions of entropy and thermodynamics in an attempt to argue why caloric deficiency is important to weight loss is almost perniciously complicated.
I don't think you are comprehending what they are trying to say. Less calories in than out = weight loss, but there are a variety of factors affecting both to where it can be difficult to judge if/how much you'll lose based on a number on your food
How about the fact that the amount of energy each need is variable from day to day and depending of their physiology?
About the fact that calories are very imprecise?
About the fact that the average caloric need of people is based on public poll of how much people eat and not on anything more concrete?
How about the fact that calories are good to estimate the energy output of a food powered steam engine, but that we don't burn food (that's how they find how many calories are in food) and that biology and biochemistry is better than thermodynamics to explain how food is processed by the body?
mags87 · 9 points · Posted at 19:11:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Your first point is irrelevant. If you burn 2500 calories on Monday and consume 2000 calories then you have a deficit. If on Tuesday you burn 3000 calories and consume2500 calories you still have a deficit and you will lose weight.
Our measurement of calories may not be perfect, but if you estimate that you burn 2500 calories but its really 2400, and you estimate that you consumed 2000 calories and you really consumed 2100, you are at a deficit and will lose weight.
The average caloric need of people is not based on a poll, its based on research.
I have no clue what you are thinking about on your last point. Calories are consumed fuel for your body, fat is stored fuel. If you use more fuel than you consumed, you use your stored fuel. You have a deficit and you will lose weight.
All of your arguments are "What if I get my intake/outtake estimates wrong?" which is completely irrelevant to the fact that if you consume less than you use you will lose weight.
And that your gut microbiome has a lot to do with what gets taken up by your digestive system - and that junk foods can alter the makeup of the biome, in a way that makes it easier to get fat?
Calories-in-calories-out is true overall, but just the calorie number on a package has only a vague relationship with what actually gets absorbed and used by your body.
Errors can easily go in the 300 to 500 range if I remember.
But in all case, calories are still a bad measure.
Digestion is not simple thermodynamics, and biology or biochemistry do not break any laws.
Of course you can't build a lego tower without lego bricks. My point is that CICO and calories in general are extremely bad at giving us any useful information.
Our body don't "burn" anything like a steam engine does. 2000 calories of wood can be calculated in the same way as 2000 calories of potatoes. But one won't power us.
That is because digestion is all about breaking down molecules, osmosis, enzimes, getting things to go through cells, dissolution, gut bacterias, hormones, etc.
And all nutriments necessitate a different process to be usable by our bodies and create different reactions when doing so.
Nothing get burned. And once inside us? Still nothing is burned. Chemical reactions, that have nothing to do with combustion, happens.
If labels told us about how many ATP a certain food make us produce, now that could be useful. Somewhat. But calories are of no use.
Zoesan · 1 points · Posted at 17:43:53 on August 17, 2017 · (Permalink)
While technically true, this is a gross overcomplication. The macro and micro nutrient composition of your food affect metabolism, storage, and satiety way less than you seem to think.
"Eat less = lose weight" is about as complicated as it needs to be for the majority of people.
Right, but you put someone on 1200 calories of lean meat, wholegrains, veg and fruit, and put the other person on 1200 calories of pizza and Mars bars and we'll see who can maintain their weight loss the longest.
If they both have the same TDEE they will both lose weight at the same rate.
You're talking about health, not weight loss, which is different. You can eat like shit if it helps you lose a bunch of weight quickly, it's still healthier to stop being obese even if it means eating nothing but ice cream the whole time. Your body has months worth of most micronutrients saved up. Once you lose the weight then worry about eating healthily.
None of that really matters at all if you have willpower and diligently record your weight every day and keep graphs and adjust your intake up or down to reach the rate of weight loss you desire... I would know I lost 60 pounds in 30 weeks intentionally at an average rate of 2 pounds (7000 calories) per week, it took the first several weeks to get it right but it wasn't difficult.
JPJP_ · 2 points · Posted at 15:31:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You mean I can eat 700calories of fast food a day and not get fat!?! Wow!!!
Some people seems to think fast food =get fat or overweight...
Pls it's because fast food is calories dense. I'm amazed at how ill informed the general population is at nutritional related stuff.
Well, technically, yes, but I'm sorry all you had to eat today was the small fries...
satysin · 3 points · Posted at 16:21:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It is like your body is some kind of machine that requires energy (food) in order to work and so not giving it enough direct energy (food) means it needs to use the energy in its reserve tanks (fat stores).
Then explain to me how I can be so fat AND so out of energy all the time?
/s, but also not /s
Sav_ij · 2 points · Posted at 18:48:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
just because your body has fat stores doesnt mean it isnt deprived of other nutrients. for the next month just throw out half of whatever youre eating and then substitute it with 2 meal replacement drinks per day and a multivitamin and youll see a massive improvement in the way you feel and a drop in bodyweight
having fat stores doesnt = full of energy
satysin · 2 points · Posted at 19:21:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
One of the reasons is because it requires more energy to carry all that fat around. Plus it is probably very likely you don't do any real muscle building exercise so you are using weak muscles to move yourself around. And I would guess you have some vitamin deficiency which can make you lathagic. Not to mention any medication you might be on.
none of these articles refute the simple, incontrovertible truth of calories in < calories out = weight loss.
incorrect labeling of calories doesn't change anything. if your actual caloric intake is less than your caloric expenditure, you will still lose weight. incorrect labeling of calories might make it difficult to exactly track what your intake is, but that doesn't disprove the original idea.
no amount of differential processing can increase the amount of calories contained in a food above its theoretical maximum. again, this really is just the same as your labeling point. it doesn't matter how many calories you think you are consuming, because that isn't what the original point is saying.
the human body cannot create energy. if you are not consuming enough energy to meet your needs, it will draw on your fat stores to make up the difference.
this is the truth. there is nothing that can "throw off the adage of calories in/calories out." if it's hard to gauge the amount of calories you're intaking, overestimate. or underestimate the amount you're burning, and exercise more.
Where in the ever loving fuck did I attempt to refute it? I even said TRUE in my initial post. It is more complex, that is my point and the only point I was trying to make and everything I listed makes it more complex.
If you eat 1500 calories a day, based on what the food is labeled at but that food actually has 20% more calories than what is labeled guess what, that is 300 calories that are now unaccounted for. That's over 3 miles you need to walk for a 180 pound person. How do you find out how much is listed in the food you eat? Guess what, even more complex to do that. You could weigh it at home but are your scales calibrated? Did your fruits and veggies all come from the same place? Did you cook it? All of these things and more can affect the amount of calories in foods.
Driving a car is as simple as using a accelerator/brakes/and steering wheel. I know it is a lot more complex than just that though. No different with eating really, calories in/calories out will help in gaining/maintaining/losing weight but it isn't as simple as it sounds.
we're getting into the realm of "actionable weight loss advice" vs. "CICO as a principle." if that's what you're trying to argue--that CICO isn't actionable advice--then that's a different discussion.
in my opinion, it is. you just have to punish yourself more than you'd like. can't tell how many calories are in a food? overestimate. can't tell how many calories you burned today? underestimate. that way any "calculated" caloric deficit will be less than your actual caloric deficit, and your weight loss will likely be faster than you anticipate it to be.
it's going to suck, and you're going to feel like shit, but it'll work.
I am arguing CICO as a principle is complex. It sounds simple but it is a lot more complex than it sounds. That is all. It is actionable advice but it isn't as easy as it sounds. There are many nuances that can throw that advice off.
[deleted] · 4 points · Posted at 16:10:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But mug genetics and low calories diets that made me fat. DIETS WERE A LOSER GAME FOR ME
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:54:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just because you know something does not mean you can do it
We're not talking about putting a man on Jupiter. We're talking reducing the amount of food people eat. Everyone can do it. People choosing not to is the problem.
I hate when people complain, “Oh I’ve hit a weight loss plateau,” “I can’t get those last stubborn pounds off.” Well listen, that person, it’s because you aren’t eating at a deficit.
For anyone that this is happening to, reevaluate your macros. There is a high possibility that you 1.) aren’t hitting your proper macros for the weight that you are at, or 2.) Are eating more calories than your body needs for maintenance because you haven’t adjusted your diet after losing a bunch of weight
oh right I thought I was in a "misconceptions"-thread I guess when I wrote that comment, thanks.
Y0D98 · 1 points · Posted at 18:34:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm quite confident less than 90% of people don't understand this though
Sav_ij · 1 points · Posted at 18:37:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
ive literally had to take this a step further and explain to overweight people like listen dude. touch your arm. is it cold or warm? yes i know its warm thats because youre warm blooded your body burns mass and generates heat. this is a physical certainty. unless youve gone cold you will never convince me that youll maintain body weight without consuming the appropriate mass. this is why things like reptiles can go such long periods without food
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:38:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
was about to reply calories in vs. calories out but you beat me to it. i was that person once that also believed in the whole "junk food is bad" "fat is bad" but i didn't learn or know any better. i love when people still preach their bs and get offended when you try to educate them.
This is how I lose weight and still eat that ice cream sandwich.
My gf keeps trying to convince me that it's the quality of the food I eat that matters. What she doesn't get is that she's only right to a certain degree.
I'll fill up on high fiber and high protein foods, and at the end of the day, if I have some kcal left in my budget, I can have anything that fits and keeps me under.
I don't need "cheat days." My gf goes over on cheat days and gives me a hard time for staying on track.
FitTea won't give you a six pack when you're 120lbs overweight.
And neither will Sketchers shape ups.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:38:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You obviously didn't take the question literally. Practically everyone knows this is true. It's just much easier said than done.
Sybre · 1 points · Posted at 19:40:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This may be true, but is also harder to do than people think. Foods can legally be 20% off their listed calorie amount. Eating something that doesn't really have a specific calorie amount like produce, meats, and fruits can be even more off. One pound of chicken can have more than double the calories of another pound of chicken.
Most people understand calories in calories out, but it's always never that simple.
"You can't outrun a bad diet." is another one that's related. Not everyone has the time to burn off 2500 calories in a day so it needs to be stated that just because you gym 3 times a week but eat nothing but fatty foods it doesn't mean you're healthy.
You will lose fat and muscle. Maybe you could retain more water somehow to counteract that. Not arguing with your overall point, just wondering if this is possible
You certainly can retain a lot of water, especially for people with thyroid conditions, but in those cases you're looking at 10 pounds or so of water at most.
"I am just big boned I can't do anything about it"
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:09:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Also, eating when you're hungry and stopping when you're full. Way less annoying/stressful than counting calories.
Weight problems can be psychological!
If the Internet has taught me anything searching for obscure programs and whatnot, it's that the small hyperlink has the download, not the big green button.
This actually worked against me once. As per usual I was searching all over the page for the correct link, certainly the big green button wasn't correct.
It was and I wasted five minutes because of other scamming jackasses.
Tip: if you don't know if the download/play/whatever button is real, click and drag it. If it's an Ad/bullshit button, a little ghost image will drag with the mouse. If it's a real button, it won't drag, or a 🚫 will show up when you try.
Patent examiner here. The patent system. I see a ton of arm chair lawyers on reddit talking about how stupid/terrible/expensive patents are, how dumb examiners are, and how broken the system is. Most of them seem to have read one article and consider themselves an expert.
Our system isn't perfect, but it works amazingly well when you consider an office with around 10k examiners handles every single US patent. The USPTO is also self funded. Not a single dollar of your taxes pays for my salary. In fact, congress actually takes money from us (about 10%) to pay for other programs.
This should be obvious, but most examiners are not stupid. At minimum, we each have an accredited bachelor's degree in engineering, math, physics, or chemistry. This is in addition to a probationary year of learning to meet the quota and tons of detailed legal training with enough classroom time to qualify as a master's degree. Many new employees quit during this period because they can't apply the training or can't handle the quota.
Which leads to the expense issue. Yes, patents are expensive. Your examiner is probably a engineer that graduated with a 3.5 or better and has years of legal training and negotiation experience. You also have the Board (often made of very senior former examiners with law degrees) that deals with appeals. These employees are not cheap to keep around.
As an examiner, it sucks seeing us bashed through the Washington Post because one examiner went off the rails and cussed out an attorney or a few idiots abused the time sheet. If you remember that fiasco, the inspector general got involved and the USPTO is now spending millions on revamping our entire time and attendance policy and implementing employee tracking. What the Washington Post didn't say was that we were at least 98% compliant even after digging through every possible abuse and counting "absent time" as any time away from the computer or main building (God forgive me if I went and read a case in the cafeteria by a window or went and asked a coworker in another building for his take on something).
All this being said, it's a cool job and the system works efficiently and amazingly well, especially compared to a couple decades ago. I'm happy to answer any questions people have.
Edit: spelling and grammar- please forgive me, I'm on mobile.
Mistakes happen and the system isn't perfect. If there are a dozen examples out of 300k granted patents each year, we're doing pretty good. Not to mention, the "blindingly obvious" things are not hurting the economy.
Patent trolls that get obscure patents, do nothing, and then wait for infringement are the issue. While everyone agrees something needs to be done, the solution has to come via legislation and no one agrees what form it should take. The most obvious is to require a working prototype, but that doesn't work for fast paced fields. They need the flexibility to patent inventions they think should work and develop them if they are financially viable.
Also, frivolous patents can be challenged in court if the need arises.
I feel like the patent troll thing is more of an issue because of our legal system which makes it inordinately expensive to defend yourself in court even if you have an airtight case. A well funded corporation can just drag cases out until the little guys run out of money
Ikinoki · 37 points · Posted at 17:38:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Challenging in court is not cheap.
Requiring prototypes would be great. But most of all the most important part is that before challenging in court you must try to come to consensus. A patent without prototype allowing a maximum of 30% from each usage would be great.
[deleted] · 28 points · Posted at 18:49:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's a naive way of looking at it. Prototypes can take years, and that's more than enough time for someone else to scoop it. Furthermore, the designer is often not a fabrication expert. Some folks just want to sell or license their invention for someone else to make. Also, if you present it to a potential partner and you don't have a patent, what's to stop them from stealing it then and there? Some patents are also for multi-million or even billion-dollar projects. Patent should absolutely come first before that kind of financial investment.
If I patent a new interstellar propulsion system, that works in theory, but I don't have the funds to get a prototype into space, that shouldn't stop me from getting my patent and licensing it to someone who has the capital
I'm not really into the whole capitalism thing so i won't put too much thought into this but couldn't you just have 2 stages of patent? One which lasts maybe 5 years, which can be upgraded to a complete patent if you provide a prototype? That would stop patent trolls
That's great, until a patent troll patents something that you're just about to push to market, and will be irrelevant by the time the first stage has expired
Which goes back to the top of this thread, patents are very time limited (varying a few years by country but 20y is a decent starting point). You may be thinking of copyright which is essentially forever plus one day.
It's a trade off. We want to incentivize people to innovate, but we also don't want patent trolls burdening down the system. It's entirely possible the net cost of innovations that never get made by a heavier patent system outweigh the costs the patent trolls place on the system. It's not as simple as you're trying to make it seem.
Aye but then the expense is on the people creating a patent, not on the people being slapped around the face with a patent.
It would also make it harder to troll, expanation incoming, and also would slightly reduce patent eval cost.
On to the harder to troll example, I cite /r/place, which was hard to troll because it required many people and lots of time to do. Similarly, if you are required to create a prototype to get a patent, creating trolly prototype is far harder, and more expensive.
The expense is also felt by every single person who's life wasn't improved because some innovation wasn't created due to a more front loaded patent system. Imagine if nobody invented the lithium ion battery because the patent system made it too expensive to create. We'd still likely be using Nokia phones. That's a real cost we pay (not having smartphones).
Whether that cost outweighs the costs the patent trolls place on us as a society is what we should be debating. I won't claim to know one way or the other but I'll defer to the guy who works full time in the patent industry over the general sentiment on /r/technology.
If you're not able to make a prototype, you won't be able to make the product, either.
The only issue I see is that somebody who invents something in their garage would have to make a prototype first in order to patent it, even if they intend on selling/licensing the patent to someone else and not manufacturing themselves. But even in that case, most people want to see a prototype before they license the tech.
I think our patent system should disincentivize people who patent something just to sit on it.
I don't think anybody disagrees with your sentence. The hard part is how to do that without hamstringing real innovation. Because the gains from innovations that never are created might outweigh the gains from reducing the number/efficacy of patent trolls.
My sister is a european patent and UK patent attorney and she was in the conference that decides the standards for 3g/4g, she wasn't thrilled with the way things were being done and the way patents work was a big part of that. Just people from companies wasting hours upon hours putting their idiocy in the minutes of the conference in hopes of their patented bullshit becoming part of the standard and making their big bucks, which DOES end up hurting us either in decreased performance or costs. Not a rant about patent attorneys per se, but still.
Not to mention, the "blindingly obvious" things are not hurting the economy.
Take a look at mobile phone patents from apple or andriod or any other provider, and there are obvious things hurting the economy. You just have large companies patenting ridiculous things, then allowing each other access to those ridiculous patents. It doesn't take much to google, and it certainly doesn't help the consumer to patent "auto correct", especially since it's shit, and basically a dictionary that's been in use of years prior to the patent.
I feel like calling auto-correct "blindingly obvious" involves a significant amount of hindsight bias. If it was "blindingly obvious" than Word 95 probably would have included it. Yeah its not some massive breakthrough that revolutionized the field, but a concept that is simple to explain and implement is not necessarily "blindingly obvious." For example, the D-Pad on video game controllers is a very simple and fundamental input system, but worse systems were used for decades before its implementation.
A spell checker is NOT auto-correct. Word 95's background spell checker resulted in those squiggly red lines that then provided a list of words that it thought you meant. It did not auto-correct.
I've not used it in Word 95 because it was useless, and I still loathe any auto-correct because it's horrible. I've barely seen any times that it actually helped, and most of the time it did anything it ruined the complete message by converting one word to garbage. I do recall it having an auto-correct option, but I don't have the CD ready to try it out.
I love autocorrect, it allows me to type when I'm not looking at the screen, or to simply swipe my finger across the letters I want, when you're having multiple conversations both in-person and online, it makes life a thousand times easier
we had spell check and grammar checker before cell phones. It seems pretty blindingly obvious to me. But there are other cell phone patents as well, this was just a top of the head moment. Notification bar is one too. Didn't Apple try and patent rounded corners too or something ridiculous?
You couldn't patent the idea of auto-correct. You could have patented the method of auto-correct though. It isn't 'what' it is 'how' that is the invention.
But auto-correct isn't just a spell check or grammar check, and a simple spell check or grammar check is not what the auto-correct patent covers. The auto-correct patent only includes the feature that it corrects automatically as you type, and that is the part that is not "blindingly obvious."
The famous "rounded edge" patent is both an outlier and CONSIDERABLY more narrow in scope than that silly Verge article would leave you to believe. But the real problem with it is it should be covered by Trademark/dress, not Patent.
murasan · 5 points · Posted at 20:01:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The rounded corners was the subject of a design patent, not a utility patent. Companies get design patents all the time.
Call it a different name, but it's still an abuse of power at the detriment to consumers. Which was my original point.
murasan · 6 points · Posted at 20:36:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Okay, but you're making a case for invalidating patents based on obviousness, which is a fundamental element of patentability as it applies to utility patents. However, obviousness does not apply to design patents.
A design such as rounded corners on a mobile communications device can be seen as blindingly obvious to a person of ordinary skill, but it is still very much patentable as a design.
To be sure, you can certainly make a case that design patents should not be allowed under federal law. But it makes no sense for obviousness to factor into that decision.
I'm responding to the comment that "blindingly obvious" patents don't hurt the economy. So in your final statement, you knowledge that these patents should not be allowed, but argue that if they were allowed my example would be fitting of a patent.
My whole contention is they shouldn't be giving out this kind of patent because it does economic damage. As well as other "obvious" patents.
murasan · 1 points · Posted at 22:03:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You have completely misunderstood what I said. As it stands there doesn't seem to be a point to continue this discussion any further. Have a good evening.
I'll agree that "blindingly obvious" is not a good term. Instead, I'd suggest that the rise of auto-correct was brought about more by computing power and larger data spaces available.
You need megabytes of data to hold a dictionary, unless you want to thrash to disk at every keystroke. For example, the Word 2013 dictionary took 8MB; all of Word 95 used 8MB, so that would have doubled your memory requirement right there.
The processing speed comes into play as the processor analyzes the sentence structure and runs through a large if-then-else branching scenario to detect if it's correct or what might come next. Only when this can happen between keystrokes does it make a real-time autocorrect viable.
Wouldn't it be a simple solution for the USPTO to simply be allowed to hand out temporary and revocable patents and wait until it's been put to real use to issue a full patent? (Unless a prototype already exists)
I think a better idea would be a company or entity needs to show meaningful application of the patent to keep it after a certain time window. Shift the burden onto the patent owner a bit, but it's only a burden if they weren't actually using it anyway.
xrimane · 3 points · Posted at 18:46:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
They need the flexibility to patent inventions they think should work and develop them if they are financially viable.
As far as I understand, in order to obtain a greater good, society grants patents for two reasons:
to incite private investors to invest money in a development that ultimately will serve all, by allowing him to exploit his invention for a limited time without other people copying his invention and profiting off of his invention
to avoid inventors to take their inventions to the grave with them by allowing them to document them without fear of copying right away
I often wonder where the public interest lies in granting patents for ideas that are still at a stage when they are vague and semi-evident to people in the field - especially when there are many others who are more or less at the same stage of development. If an idea would get developed anyway, because there is money to be earned, why not let the market take its course, at the advantage of the consumer?
A patent application contains as much information as the applicant wants. Depending on the particular local law, if the examiner is satisfied that the alleged invention could work, in addition to being new etc. they're allowed to grant it. If it isn't viable, it most probably won't make money or harm anyone anyway. That said, hindsight is a powerful tool.
JMJimmy · 5 points · Posted at 19:07:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The trouble I have with the patent office is that it's clearly being gamed.
Patents like https://www.google.com/patents/US20060115507 are obvious attempts to obfuscate the truth. The truth of their product is it's a standard insecticide, in a standard delivery mechanism with some random "essential oils" thrown in.
It reads more like a marketing brochure than a patent, contains so many conditional & non-determinable statements that there's no way anyone at the patent office could know what the heck the product actually contains, let alone that the "essential oils" do jack all to create a new or novel insecticide.
That patent is ridiculously narrow in scope, it allows only for one specific pesticide in a 1:2 ratio with Thyme Oil specifically used for killing cockroaches.
That said, it's still not something that should be patented
Contract independent software engineers to review software patents.
I don't think you understand the magnitude of this issue. The software patent system is so wildly out of control, most of us just assume it's dirty and fraudulent.
I hope one day that your ability to provide for your family is put in jeopardy because you are being sued for infringing on a trivial patent (the software equivalent of patenting a fork with three tines instead of four). And that you are forced out of business because the Texas court is in the pocket of the trolls.
Contract independent software engineers to review software patents.
What, you mean guys with no legal training whatsoever, as opposed to the thousands of software engineers with legal training already working at the patent office?
We're not talking about dozens, here. The numbers are much closer to 7 figures than 5.
What you should compare is the dozen cases you've heard about because those people thought they had a chance of winning vs the half a million that knows they don't have a chance.
You should read about Xplane and the guy who wrote it. I wonder if you'll feel as proud then.
The whole thing is a ridiculous game that distracts from the fundamental issue that software patents provide leverage for financially large institutions to destroy smaller ones.
Edit: link
VerrKol · 2 points · Posted at 20:10:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is an issue with the legal system at large. It's hardly limited to patent law
The legal system is built on the assumption that the patent represents a legitimate invention worthy of protection.
When that assumption becomes invalid (as it has with software patents), companies can wield ridiculous patents like clubs against smaller companies. The patent essentially becomes a weapon. We see this time, and time again.
You shouldn't be able to patent a shopping cart, or the concept of selling things online. That's just ludicrous. I don't know if you're a software developer, but these technologies (and many like them) are not worthy of patents. Any reasonable design/engineering team would come up with those ideas, and be able to implement them quickly and easily, but right now a large number of people are being sued for implementing exactly that.
There's an algorithm called marching cubes that held the game industry back for 15 years. Again, an idea that any good graphics engineer could have developed becomes not only inaccessible, but actionable.
The larger company uses the legal system and becomes the assailant. The patent is the weapon. Without the crappy patent, they wouldn't have the opportunity.
saikron · 4 points · Posted at 18:06:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If there are a dozen examples out of 300k granted patents each year, we're doing pretty good. Not to mention, the "blindingly obvious" things are not hurting the economy.
Do examiners get fired for issuing "online multiplayer video game" patents or "rounded edge touchscreen icon" patents? This is like multiple people successfully patenting the wheel, over and over again.
I mean I don't want to crucify the examiners responsible for awarding those patents but the impact of these fuckups can be huge, and collectively they create an atmosphere of distrust or even animosity for the USPTO. I hate to be condescending, and maybe I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure a sophomore computer science student would read that abstract and say "lol no".
geniel1 · 7 points · Posted at 17:47:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
While everyone agrees something needs to be done
Not everyone agrees that patent trolls are a problem. I actually think they're quite misunderstood. I'm a patent attorney and I know lots of other patent attorneys think the same thing.
"Trolls" provide an important feature in that they are an avenue for the little guy to enforce his/her patents against bigger companies. If I get a patent but don't have the money to enforce it against a big company, I can strike up a deal with a troll to enforce it where the troll pays for the enforcement in exchange for a split of any damages the court may award down the road.
Trolls aren't a bug, they're a feature. The fact that most of the public thinks of them as a problem just shows how effective the tech sector's demonization campaign has been.
lurgi · 9 points · Posted at 18:17:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
They could be used for that. Any idea how many are used for that purpose?
The issue I have with patent trolls is that you have someone who is not manufacturing an item enforcing a patent against someone who is. Patents exist to provide a benefit to society by providing protection to inventors. Patent trolls, by and large, don't seem to provide that benefit.
I don't think that an inventor has to manufacture their idea in order to get a patent, but I'm very, very suspicious of companies that have no intention of making a product and only have the patent to sue those who do have such an intention (see: Intellectual Ventures).
Although perhaps in the world of tech, the problem can largely be resolved by reducing the length of patent protection for software patents (or eliminating them completely, although I suspect reducing the length is more likely).
geniel1 · 5 points · Posted at 18:54:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
They could be used for that. Any idea how many are used for that purpose?
They're used for that all the time. It's quite a common practice. Even big companies use them for this. Medtronic and Boston Scientific, for example, routinely sell or license to trolls parts of their portfolios that they're not using.
The issue I have with patent trolls is that you have someone who is not manufacturing an item enforcing a patent against someone who is.
By that definition, pretty much every research university is a "troll". Hell, Thomas Edison didn't actually manufacture anything so even he would be considered a "troll".
Patents exist to provide a benefit to society by providing protection to inventors. Patent trolls, by and large, don't seem to provide that benefit.
Patent trolls do provide value though. By offering an enforcement mechanism for individual inventors, trolls increase the inherent value in all patents. Like any other property right, the ability to transfer one's right to enforce a patent is a big driver of their value. Take that right away, and the value of patents will be driven down. If you, for example, took away people's rights to transfer their cars or homes to some types of buyers then the price of cars and homes would drop. We'll see the same result for patents if we pass rules designed to prevent inventors from transferring their patent rights to trolls.
The tech world would love to kill the trolls because the tech world loves to rip off inventors. That's why Intel launched the whole anti-Troll screed that has gain such popular acceptance. This is why this patent troll topic is so apt for this thread. 90% of the people just accept that trolls are bad, but those people don't truly understand patents.
lurgi · 2 points · Posted at 19:05:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Hell, Thomas Edison didn't actually manufacture anything so even he would be considered a "troll".
He manufactured plenty of items. He wasn't just an ideas guy.
geniel1 · 2 points · Posted at 19:10:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No he didn't. He licensed his patents to other companies and those other companies manufactured the inventions.
lurgi · 1 points · Posted at 19:21:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So what was Edison manufacturing company? Chopped liver?
Anyway, I don't see why you think I'd object to someone selling patents to let someone else make stuff instead of them doing it themselves.
geniel1 · 1 points · Posted at 19:24:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Edison was an inventor, but he didn't manufacture any products. He made his money by licensing his patents out to others.
lurgi · 1 points · Posted at 19:30:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Edison was an inventor, but he didn't manufacture any products
He most certainly did (or his companies did, which amounts to the same thing).
geniel1 · 3 points · Posted at 19:44:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Later in his career he started to manufacture some of his own inventions, but early on during his most inventive phase of his life he was a non-practicing entity that made his money by selling or licensing his patents to others.
lurgi · 2 points · Posted at 19:08:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
They're used for that all the time. It's quite a common practice. Even big companies use them for this. Medtronic and Boston Scientific, for example, routinely sell or license to trolls parts of their portfolios that they're not using.
Yeah, but that wasn't what I was talking about. You said:
they are an avenue for the little guy to enforce his/her patents against bigger companies. If I get a patent but don't have the money to enforce it against a big company, I can strike up a deal with a troll to enforce it where the troll pays for the enforcement in exchange for a split of any damages the court may award down the road.
Which is different.
geniel1 · 2 points · Posted at 19:11:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Those aren't mutually exclusive. Trolls enforce patents of both small individual inventors and big giant companies.
To take your example, Intellectual Ventures - many of the patents they enforce came from and were developed by operating companies, like HP, etc. Are they a "troll" when they enforce those patents? What about IBM - they used to make stuff, don't anymore, but they still enforce their patents. Is IBM a patent troll? How about Nokia - they don't make mobile phones anymore. Are they a troll if they want to enforce their mobile phone patents?
The problem here is that everyone thinks their own patents are just fine, it's the other guy who is a patent troll.
lurgi · 3 points · Posted at 18:59:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Are they a "troll" when they enforce those patents?
If you believe that the purpose of these patents is to protect the maker of stuff, then yes. Because they aren't making stuff.
geniel1 · 6 points · Posted at 19:09:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Your post is a prime example of the misconceptions that 90% of the people have about patents.
The purpose of a patent isn't to protect manufacturers of stuff. In fact, a patent doesn't even give you the right to make the invention. It only gives you the right to stop others from making, using or selling the invention. It is quite possible for an inventor to not be able to practice his own invention because some other person got a patent on some other aspect of the invention. For example, you might get a patent on a car yet still not be able to make, use or sell the car because some earlier inventor has a patent on the tires you need for the car to work.
The purpose of a patent is to entice inventors to disclose their inventions in exchange for a 20-yr monopoly that allows the inventors to stop others from using their invention.
lurgi · 5 points · Posted at 19:18:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If we want to be technical, the purpose of patents in the US is to "promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries"
I see that bit about "exclusive right", but I also see the bit about "promote the progress of science and useful arts". I believe that there are uses of patents today that do not "promote the progress of science and useful arts". I would like to believe that it would be possible to reform the existing system to make it more in alignment with that goal.
The purpose of a patent is to entice inventors to disclose their inventions in exchange for a 20-yr monopoly that allows the inventors to stop others from using their invention.
I do not believe that stopping others from using your invention, by itself, provides much real benefit to society. Society benefits when someone builds the invention, not when other people are prevented from doing it (you need the latter to protect the former, but the latter without the former isn't helping anyone, IMHO). This is straight up dog-in-manger stuff.
geniel1 · 3 points · Posted at 19:38:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well, the patent clause in the constitution wasn't meant to be an exhaustive explanation of the purpose of the patent system. The only reason it found its way into the document was because the founding fathers wanted to make sure patents were temporary in nature. At the time, it was common practice in Europe to grant patents as political favors. The patents often didn't expire or were rarely granted to those that actually did the inventing. The founding fathers wanted to make sure we didn't do that here, so they wrote the "promote the progress of science" and "securing for a limited time" bits as limitations on Congress's power rather than as a clear statement of a patent's purpose.
Perhaps you don't believe that stopping others from using your invention provides much benefit, but the founding fathers wouldn't have agreed with you. Those are the same guys that wound up passing the first patent statute, and they purposely didn't grant a patent holder the right to practice their own invention. Instead, they designed the system we have that only allows patent holders to prevent others from using their patented inventions.
There are countries that try to promote the manufacturing of inventions by including various legal mechanisms to force manufacturing. Those systems don't work very well because they actually wind up watering down the rights of the inventors and discourage inventing. India is a prime example of this.
I have nothing to add to this, but I work in a tech transfer office at a large research university and these comment threads are incredibly frustrating to read. Thank you for actually taking the time to explain things to people.
But patents don't exist only to protect people who make stuff. They exist to protect people who invent stuff, whether they make that stuff themselves or license it to others. As it says in the Constitution, the patent system is supposed "to promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to ... inventors the exclusive right to their respective ... discoveries." Not a word in there about making stuff, fwiw.
What's your opinion on patenting biological things? IMO there are the dumb easy questions like discovering what something does shouldn't allow you to patent it, but the complex cases of truly artificial organic molecules changing as they reproduce doesn't seem to have an easy answer.
Software patents are a real bad idea though...it’s like allowing people to patent plots for novels and then enforce that patent even if every single word is different.
Software should be handled under copyright, where exact copying is actionable, but outcomes shouldn’t be. If I code up a one click purchase button that is in every way different from how Amazon does it, with the exception that clicking a button completes a purchase, Amazon shouldn’t be able to legally come after me.
Engineer here, and I respectfully disagree. The patent system is broken to all hell, at least in classes 700-726.
Very few patents in this category are non-obvious, and fewer are novel. It's depressing to read a patent, only to read a much earlier paper from different authors. It's even more depressing to then read a second patent covering the exact same process.
I'm not an expert in other classes, so maybe they're chugging along fine.
We went through a huge hiring period around 2013 and 2014 and did just that. One of the biggest issues was the backlog and 5 year waits for a first office action. Most areas have minimal backlog now and waiting times are down to about 18 months.
Hiring even more examiners runs the risk of expanding too quickly and running out of applications in some areas. Every time we hire, we have to predict what areas will continue to see a lot of applications based on past activity. This is not always a precise science. Additionally, examiners are trained in and specialized in one specific field (eg rehab devices, or turbo fans, or diapers, or photovoltaic cells) and transferring to a different area that needs the help is time consuming and comes with a learning curve.
What are your thoughts on the cost to submit from a practical perspective? A good patent costs $10k to get created by good lawyers, is there any way someone like me can find a reliable way to reduce that cost. Is there a way to have the patent off be more willing to work with me and help me through the process?
Have you ever read this article from popular mechanic ?
Have you ever heard of any other similar situations where a little guy patented something and then got screwed because they can't defend it against a big company ?
Is that a huge issue ?
As someone on the inside do you have any suggestions oh how the system should be you fixed ?
This may be the only fair answer I've seen in one of these self-congratulatory circlejerk threads. 90% of people not having a good understanding of the patent system actually seems like a realistic possibility.
I don't understand how you can maintain that position in the face of the software patent disaster, and the financial destruction of small software businesses it has caused (forget about the societal cost of the product utility that is lost because of this).
The thing you don't want to admit is that in today's world, patents are only useful if you have the money to defend them. They didn't help Eli Whitney with his cotton gin, and they do not help the "little guy" today.
A typical app developer cannot enforce a patent on a larger company.
I don't think the examiners themselves are dumb or to blame, but there's no doubt that there are major issues with the system and it's incredibly broken. Consider things like allowing Apple to patent rounded corners of a phone, allowing Amazon to patent taking pictures with white backgrounds, or more generally allowing software and hardware patent trolls to harass companies and stifle innovation for things vague things that never should have gotten protection.
ps3o-k · 3 points · Posted at 16:35:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When you have a patent how do you know it's original? (Serious).
geniel1 · 5 points · Posted at 17:39:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The patent office searches past patents, scientific papers, publications, etc to try to determine if the invention in question is new and non-obvious.
ps3o-k · 1 points · Posted at 11:50:25 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Can I be frank? You are way too inside the bubble of your daily life, here. Most people commenting on the patent system are not even thinking one iota about the office where you work, its budget, or any news stories related to the patent office. The work you guys do is fine, respectable work. There's a lot of skepticism about the concept of intellectual property in general in the modern era. I'm not here to make an argument one way or the other on that....
You want to defend your job. So you need to understand how your opponents think. For example, the fact that the system is self-sustained is not supposed to be a good point. For a lot of people, it's the sign that the the actors in the patent business live at good people's expense (good people = those who innovates, basically).
zaery · 3 points · Posted at 19:33:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A method of swinging on a swing has always been my favorite silly patent. I'm curious if there's something about it that I'm missing, or if it really is just a ridiculous patent that I almost infringed on as a kid.
As the holder of 15 patents in my industry, I'm always surprised by the misunderstanding most people have about IP law. Patents are there to protect the inventor from theft, and they are only abused in a very small number of cases.
Do you believe that people should be able to patent something and never actually develop or implement a product based on it? That is the biggest problem I find with the patent system.
It is intended to protect inventors, but it also allows companies to buy up patents, never produce or build anything and earn money by suing lots of small companies for bullshit obvious patents that they don't have the time or money to fight.
The courts are incredible expensive and time consuming to sort out bad patents.
This is especially bad in the area of software patents.
Patents are expensive to obtain and defend. While there are speculative patents that never get realized, probably most of them eventually find their way into the market. It is common to patent several ways to solve a specific problem but only use the most direct approach, however. This is to prevent an extremely narrow claim from being run around easily. I am somewhat for a shorter expiration date on unrealized claims, though.
One of the big hidden value in patents is that the act of application makes the information public, whether or not the patent is issued. This is a huge boon, in that the patent system is a big free treasure trove of research. Any claim that doesn't get granted is free for anyone to copy, any anything that does is free after the patents expire. One of the few good things about drug patents is that they help the generics get onto the market safely as soon as the patents expire.
I wish more people understood this. I think some of the issue arises from people assuming patents are easy if you have an idea. They have no clue how much work goes into the process from everyone involved (inventor, assignee, attorney, examiner, etc).
It's not patent-exclusive. Most redditors despise the idea of intellectual property for no other reason than because other redditors told them to.
Distind · 5 points · Posted at 19:40:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Or we're in software and have to dance around landmines of things I've never even heard of because I might code something vaguely similar in a superficial capacity to a software patent.
The rest of patents, sure. Particularly novel software, perhaps for very deep technological definitions, but right now, broke as shit.
Good ol hive mind. Most don't realize a big part of the reason we're a prosperous nation with cool tech to use in our everyday lives is because of the intellectual property system. The problem is mistakes and issues make headlines while everything good is swept under the rug.
My problem with our current intellectual property system is that the length has gotten out of control. The Constitution had it right at fourteen years. Performing someone else's song or making a copy of a video game is NOT the same as stealing someone else's property. You aren't taking anything away from anyone, you're creating a brand new copy.
The reason for IP laws is to incentivize people to create IP, not because sending a friend an MP3 of a song you like is immoral.
Imagine all of the free content that would exist with 14 years as the limit for IP? All music, movies, TV shows, books, video games, and inventions before 2003 would be free and available to everyone. That is an incredible public good. And all of that stuff still would have been created if IP only lasted 14 years, which is more than enough time to make money off of your idea.
There is a huge difference between copyrights and patents. I agree copyrights have gotten out of control.
Patents last a maximum of 20 years. This is a fair amount of time in my opinion. Patents are expensive to obtain and maintain and many times patents don't get commercialized for a multitude of reasons. 14 years likely wouldn't be enough time to recover costs for some industries and finding investors could be difficult with a shorter profit window.
Also, there is nothing preventing someone from making and patenting a meaningful improvement on a patent issued last week. The beauty of it is that in exchange for a limited monopoly on the patented invention, the public is informed about how to make and use the invention immediately. This allows for immediate improvements, furthers the field, and fosters an innovative culture.
You begin with Patents and then branch off and start discussing Copyrights. You then further move into "IP" generally. So would you support having Trademarks only existing for 14 years? That seems to be a terrible idea to me. Furthermore, you seem to assume that 14 years is enough of an incentive to create music, TV shows, books, and video games. Is that really true? Do you have anything to support that? Can you imagine if the Copyright on Star Wars ran out in 14 years? You realize that the franchise would have collapsed and that there wouldn't be any new movies (the logic applies to all sequels and follow-ups to games, movies, shows, and books. Once anyone can tap into it then the original creator loses that market).
It would result in someone else's version of Star Wars being created and ending up in the market. At the very best it would essentially create a "rush to the marketplace" hurting the quality of the work put out there. At the worst it would actually stop sequels from being produced by the original creator entirely.
Who are you to say 14 years is long enough and that software piracy isnt stealing? People put hardwork and creative talent into making a video game and that should be protected. Why should an author not be expected to be compensated for a book they wrote in 2002? That is ridiculous.
Deto · 5 points · Posted at 17:10:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You're just arguing that it's not the fault of patent workers and that things are expensive because the system is set up that way. I believe you. However that doesn't mean that the system , as a whole, isn't really messed up. Most criticisms aren't blaming the patent workers personally.
Not OP, but a I know a fair amount of my co-workers ended up here because we got sick of working as engineers in the field which we examine. The hours here are better and often times the pay is as good or better. They post the listing on USAJobs like everything else in the federal government.
Thanks you so much! I think I might consider it as a job now!
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:46:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Also don't forget our insane production requriements, we don't have paid lunch, and our payment system is billable hours so we have to show that every minute we are getting paid we are working on a case. If you have hard cases, you will have to give up your time and work voluntary overtime to compensate.
As a huge fan of Shark Tank, what are the basic differences on some of the patents they mention on there?
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:44:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I see a ton of arm chair lawyers on reddit talking about how stupid/terrible/expensive patents are, how dumb examiners are, and how broken the system is. Most of them seem to have read one article and consider themselves an expert.
This is reddit and people in general when it comes to anything. This term isn't popular anymore but I'm going to say it anyway because it's correct: Dunning-Kruger Effect. You see it everywhere once you know what to look for.
Well... OK, you have 10k examiners. The US gets ~600k applications per year. So to keep up you would need each examiner to process ~1 per 4 days. ONE PER FOUR DAYS. That's not much. Currently the process takes 5-6 years. I feel like there's A LOT of room for improvement.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 21:30:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It takes an extreme amount of time to analyze a patent. It isn't an easy thing as you may think. You first have to analyze the technology which is completely different each application. You have to understand all the mechanisms and parts and their functions. Then you will have to go through thousands of previous patents, publications, and non patent literature and narrow down to a list of relevant applications (this is the bulk of time; searching), then you have to compose an office action in which you use legal arguments sometimes using case law on why this particular invention isn't inventive. Then you send it out and continue on other applications. Month's later you recieve the application you sent out, and look at the arguments, then proceed to argue more and or search more, and then if you are lucky you can give a final rejection, but if the client has money he can continue to fight on. We reduced tthe backlog to 2 years old applications now, and the current goal is to complete prosecution within 10 months.
[deleted] · 6 points · Posted at 17:32:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't accept a patent system that allows computer code or math to be patented unless it's an entirely new form of code or math and even then only the language itself should be able to be patented, not anything written in said languages. Computer code should fall under copyright.
The laws need to be changed to reflect this, I've written my congressman and senator and got nothing.
But they can patent "a process, using a computer, whereby ___and the ___ can be incredibly generic.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:59:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Umm yeah they can, they patent processes made with computer language. Like amazon's 1-click patent case that they just lost for example. Google software patents.
Yes, a process can be patented. Whether or not it's implementation uses computer code doesn't matter. Google some patent law, start with "subject matter eligibility software per se" then go read Enfish and Bascom. Also, Amazon's patent in the US expired and was never found invalid, if that's what you mean by "lost".
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 20:37:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes, I know that, I'm saying it shouldn't be able to be. Any expression of code/language should be handled by copyright. (Software)
And what about code that's used in inventive processes as I mentioned? Should an inventive process be unpatentable because it uses computer code to perform a part of the process?
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 21:53:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No, just make a distinction between processes that are an expression of language and processes that are an expression of physics. For example, if you invented some kind of new process for a device, say you invented the tricorder from star trek, you can patent the processes in the device that allows it to do what it does, but you can't patent the firmware that controls it.
(The idea is opposites, you can't patent physics but you can patent expressions of physics. You can patent a coding language but you can't patent an expression of that language, instead it would fall under copyright. It's simple.)
"you can patent the processes in the device that allows it to do what it does, but you can't patent the firmware that controls it." This doesn't make sense to me, imo, you're making a distinction without a difference. Software/firmware is what allows a new device to perform those new processes and is just a way to implement the invented processes. Nobody is filing patents on the "code", they are patenting the processes. And again, copyright cannot be used to protect inventive processes.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 02:12:54 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well the hardware has to allow for it. I'm basically saying you can patent hardware that's designed to fulfill a function, but not the firmware that controls it. Also, you seem be extremely particular about exact wording. I'm saying that no processes generated by code can be unique or original.
For example, do you think Miscrosofts SMB protocol is patent worthy? What about Amazon's 1 click checkout?
Yes, I am extremely particular about wording because that is what matters in the law. The distinction you make should not matter, either a process is novel or it is not, whether or not it is implemented using hardware or software/firmware, or a combination thereof, does not matter.
I have not done prior art research on Miscrosoft's SMB protocol nor the Amazon's 1 click checkout, so I cannot provide an opinion on those matters. What research into that prior art have you done?
If I invest $5 million into developing a new encryption technology that is novel and is implented via software, you are telling me that I cannot patent it because it would be implemented in software. That is a wrong result. New technology should be patentable whether or not they are implemented with software. Why should one not be able to get such a patent?
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 01:17:16 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
1) I don't know why you're calling it an art.
2) If you developed a new form of encryption that would be patentable.
3) The distinction is important, because it would be separating creativity from innovation.
What research into that prior art have you done?<
4) My point was going to be that there was nothing remotely innovative or patent worthy about either of those things. Since you don't know anything about it nvm.
Why should one not be able to get such a patent?<
I'll answer this as a separate question. It stifles innovation and allows patent trolls to exist. Also, because the "process" is often patented, even if two separate companies solve the problem in different ways, or even different languages just because one company holds a patent on the idea behind a process means they can sue another company for that. Even when they didn't come up with it, even when it's unoriginal and it existed in a slightly different form before the way they implemented it.
If things made from coding fell under copyright then nobody could copy anyone else's code, but if one company can find a way to solve a problem differently than another they would be able to do so. Also, finally my point is that innovation happens at the hardware engineering level, not the software implementation level. Software exists to leverage the hardware to solve specific problems that the hardware is already designed to be capable of addressing.
I thank you for thoughtful and detailed responses. I have engaged in this exchange in an attempt to educate at least one of the 90% (you) that the OC (u/Comprised_of_haggis) discussed. As a final retort to some of your questions and points, I offer this information as a place where you can learn some correct details about this subject matter (i.e. patents):
1) I call it "prior art" because that is what the professionals, including me (i.e. the 10%), call it in this area of law. Generally, "prior art" is all information that existed prior to an applicant's patent filing (in the US and most other countries that are on a first-to-file system) and, per the minutiae of the law, can be used to reject giving an applicant a patent. Note though, there needs to be actual evidence of such prior art. A random internet person's statement, without support or analysis, stating something would be "obvious" does not count as prior art under the law.
2) I am currently working with a group of engineers to patent new encryption methods. It is all software based and completely hardware independent. Anyone with a modern computer could implement these new encryption methods. And yes, they are completely new. The methods and processes used to perform the encryption and authenticate did not exist before these engineers invented them, and implemented them solely in software. I am doing the same with new digital communications technology, which is again completely hardware independent and could be implemented on any receiver with an antenna, ADC, and processor; the fact is the specific hardware barely matters.
3) One can separate creative art, like paintings, photographs, and literature, from innovative functional devices. I am absolutely fine with copyright being used to protect computer code as a literary work; however, that protection should not be in lieu of patent protection for novel (and non-obvious) processes or methods, even if they happen to be implemented solely using software. See my encryption discussion above.
4) Are you intricately familiar with 35 USC 102 and 35 USC 103? These are the laws that determine whether something is novel (35 USC 102) and non-obvious (35 USC 103). The analysis for determing novelty is somewhat objective, whereas the analysis for determing obviousness is more subjective. However, as the OC stated, the patent Examiners do a damn good job of this at the moment. Sure, there are a few patents that might get through that don't seem like they should, but there are ways built into the law to rectify that afterwards (see IPRs and invalidity defenses). Note: I have been in this area of law for 20 years and the different in quality of the examination of patents from the late 90s and ealy 2000s is substantial; a lot of overly broad, and hence likely invalid, patents were issued in that timeframe. The USPTO has done a great job over the last 15 years changing that and making it a much better quality examination when it comes to software, computer, process inventions.
5) I have also worked with a number of clients to deal with patent trolls. Patent trolls are not uniquely a software problem. IBM, imo, is one of the biggest patent trolls out there, as well as numerous patent trolls that merely own circuit and hardware patents. Forcing methods or processes implemented via software not to be patentable will not fix the patent troll problem. Those of us working on this issue know this; the real problem is the ridiculous leverage the patent trolls have in court due to pleadings, timing, and costs. Luckily, there have been two significant changes to that in the last year at the court level, and hopefully we can get some legislation passed that hurts trolls even more.
6) Yes, if one has a valid patent, they can sue someone over it. All patents have a potential to stifle innovation in the patented space for the term of the patent, that is an intentional aspect of having a patent system and why the patent holder gets a limited time (approx. 20 yrs from filing) monopoly to stop others from practicing the invention, hence the stifling. This is exaclty how the pharma industry works also. The basis for this is in the Constitution. That is the foundational concept of having a patent system. Also, as mentioned above, there are multiple ways to challenge a patent as being invalid if a defendant believes such. However, your statement "Even when they didn't come up with it, even when it's unoriginal and it existed in a slightly different form before the way they implemented it." is incorrect, see discussions on 35 USC 102 and 35 USC 103, as well as the requirement for the inventors in a patent application to sign a declaration that they are the inventors of the subject matter thereof. If you believe someone is not the true inventor of a patent, or their exists significant prior art, the law currently allows multiple ways to address this (e.g. reexamine, IPR, litigation).
Also note that if one of your two companies who solved the problem in different ways has a patent on solution 1, and solution 2 is not covered under the same patent, then company 2 can utilize solution 2 without infringing the solution 1 patent. Note that a patent cannot protect "the problem" that is being solved independent of a solution to such problem. Patents have been part of US business for 200+ years; many industries and businesses deal with patent issues every day, it is part of doing business per the US Constitution. If you would like to have a Constitutional convention to debate whether we should amend it to remove the patent clause, that would be a valid question to ask.
7) Computer code is protectable by copyright under the current law. Also, a patent does not prevent a company from solving a problem differently than what was done in the patent. You seem to imply that a patent somehow prevents this, which is not the case. Generally, a patent only covers those solutions which are disclosed and claimed within the patent. Copyrights do not cover any solutions, it merely covers written text.
8) I have to vehemently disagree with your hardware statement. See my discussions above, the hardware used to implement the new technologies just doesn't matter to the inventions.
I encourage you to take this information and learn more factual details about patents and patent law, and how that intersects with software. As of now, you are merely spouting the same diatribes I have seen from other mis-informed, but well intentioned, people who have a scant understanding of the patent system.
I wish you well. Please forgive any typos, as this is a terrible setup for proofreading.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 01:18:40 on August 17, 2017 · (Permalink)
So basically you're saying it's not a problem with the patent system but a problem of individual mistakes that lead to the granting of patents that shouldn't be granted. I guess I'm willing to accept that.
Computer code is protectable by copyright under the current law. Also, a patent does not prevent a company from solving a problem differently than what was done in the patent. You seem to imply that a patent somehow prevents this, which is not the case. Generally, a patent only covers those solutions which are disclosed and claimed within the patent. Copyrights do not cover any solutions, it merely covers written text.<
Except patents that do this are granted and sued over. Even when the implementation is different. Still, I guess that goes back to making mistakes. I just don't think the courts should be able to be used a weapon to beat people down.
Great job of patting yourself on the back and promoting the system. But lets look at this from outside. The requirement to pass judgement on the work and grant/denty is only a Bachelors? No real world design experience or knowledge is required? legal training but not a PE? I can understand legal knowledge but you should have experience in the field and that comes from doing not looking at lots of papers. Thats the big beef everyone has that stupid patents are approved or patents that overlap dont get rejected.
The USPTO does get taxpayer funding but it pays it back from fees, most of the time it does, however if patent fees don't cover the budget given by Congress you still get paid the same. Thats a lot different from "self-funded" where if there is a shortfall the could be impacts on salaries or jobs to make up the gap.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:49:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No real world design experience or knowledge is required? legal training but not a PE?
Those things would be nice to have, but there's honestly multiple different avenues to fix the problem if you're willing to massively increase the budget in the way your plan proposes. If you want somebody with those qualifications and that work history to leave their work for the patent office you'll need to offer them 200+% of what you offer somebody with a bachelors degree and some legal training if you want to retain them. Especially because people predisposed to want to do patent office work instead of design work in the first place probably self select in to the field as it is. Attracting outside talent could be prohibitively expensive for political reasons.
A person with a Bachelors passing judgement on the work of a PhD and/or enginerring expert is crazy. That would be like letting a Supreme Court judge make decisions having only a basic understanding of law and the Constitution. Paying more money to get a patent that allows them to make millions and not worry about someone claiming the USPTO missed it would be reasonable.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:38:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I get where you're coming from, but that doesn't address what I said about how that requires a much larger budget. Also, being able to gauge whether something meets the criteria for a patent doesn't require one to be an equivalent expert to the inventor. Technology isn't unintelligible voodoo to somebody just because they don't have a graduate degree or don't have hands on experience in that exact field.
I'm not sure what you meant by that last part. Some type of buyout ability?
If you dont understand it then it might as well be voodoo. But since the claims on the application are not verified just checked to see no one else has claimed the same(prior art). So from what I see I could patent something that violates the laws of physics such as a warp drive. Which explains why advanced knowledge isnt needed.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 21:00:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You can easily understand something you weren't capable of discovering for yourself. Even Isaac Newton said he only saw so far because he stood on the shoulders of giants. You act like it is completely unreasonable for a non expert to understand the ideas of experts, something that precludes the sharing of knowledge in general.
So from what I see I could patent something that violates the laws of physics such as a warp drive. Which explains why advanced knowledge isnt needed.
I don't see the point of this strawman. It doesn't even take someone with a bachelors degree in physics, let alone a PhD, to spot a violation of the laws of physics. Please show me proof of these time machine-esque bullshit patents and offer an explanation for how they are even a serious issue if they exist. Who would they hurt exactly?
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 21:20:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It has to do with resources. The most paid person in the USPTO is capped to 170K and that is irrespective of the location of where the examiner is staying. you would never get a well respected technical professional from the silicon valley, because they are not going to be happy with the salary that is being offered to them. You also have such a variety of different technologies you have to examine you can't be an expert in everything. Each application they review is completely different from each other, the only similarity it may be used in the same industry, and sometimes not even that. Coupled to the fact, you have X time to finish a case, that is predetermined and you have no say against even if its an extremely hard case make its a a train wreck that the examiner has to steer best as they can to stay on course. We are literally 2 years behind on patents because it takes time to review technology and we are understaffed.
Ever thought about hiring retired tech people and letting them work remote and part-time? That could help a lot and they probably would fit in the salary curve.
ythl · 3 points · Posted at 19:05:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I see a ton of arm chair lawyers on reddit talking about how stupid/terrible/expensive patents
Software Patents, FTFY
Gl33m · 3 points · Posted at 16:10:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I can still think copyright laws have become total bullshit though, right?
The problem I see is not patent examiners, it's 1) examiner overload, and 2) patenting of software. Recent appeals cases have ruled out the "do X on a computer" type patents, but really anything on a computer is still always something you can do on paper. You might need lots and lots of paper and pencils, but computers only follow instructions written by people. (Or maybe more meta, as in instructions written by other computers, which were instructed by people.)
ikwtif · 1 points · Posted at 17:29:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Isn"t the issue with patents is that you can patent whatever you want even if you don't have any intention of using it. It limits market growth because people without the money to have patents can't protect their technology or can't use their technology because some part is patented. Open source is where the true advancements will be. Patents mostly serve the already big companies
sadeiko · 1 points · Posted at 18:42:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Thank you for your post. I've tried googling it but it's hard to find any hard cradle to grave list of what is necessary to file a patent. I can figure out all the forms and stuff, but, If I'm wanting to patent a function of computer software, what would suffice as concept material? Source code? Screenshots? a demo? 3rd party libraries used?
Please do some research on Richard Stallman to help you get your brainwashed head out of your capitalist ass. You are arrogant and so in love with the absurd concept of patents that you feel the need to defend your dying field. In the future, the very notion of patents will be considered a barbaric, restrictive and authoritarian practice that merely stifled innovation and lined the pockets of greedy lawyers.
LOL you have * ten thousand* people to examine patents and still take years for each one? jesus, is the whole thing an autism in the workplace experiment?
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 21:23:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You can can apply on USAJobs, it takes 10 weeks from the applications closing to get hired. Warning there wont be any hiring at least in this year because they are afraid of Trump and his commitment to reduce the federal work force.
tabarra · 2 points · Posted at 01:36:35 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Wait until you hear this: Calculus 2
[deleted] · 23 points · Posted at 18:00:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's not THAT hard. It's just boring and requires effort. As someone who majored in mathematics and has a masters, getting over the boredom was half the battle, you start to realize how cool the concepts can be. Calculus is well within the reach of a lot of people, just isn't being taught well. Limits for example, can be easily demonstrated to people if taught correctly, e.g. using polygons to fill a circle with infinitely many sides. Most people understand that but teachers don't teach it that way. They do it with functions etc. A lot of the problem is mathematics is communicated badly and by people that are gifted in mathematics e.g they get concepts easily but ignore the fact that others don't (doesn't mean that they are bad at math, just not professors).
I wonder how many people who've learned to do integrals understand that an integral is defined to be a continuous sum (rather than something to do with antidifferentiation). I'd bet less than 10%. But once you understand this idea -- and it's not too hard to grasp with some good examples -- most of calculus is pretty intuitive.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:52:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What do you mean a continuous sum? A quantity that's always (however slowly) increasing because it's constantly having increasingly small amounts added to it? That's my guess based on what you said and what I know but I'd like to know for sure.
Thanks ahead of time if you bother to reply, btw...
A physical example would be working out how fast a glass of water fills up if you know the rate that water is flowing into it. You kind of want to just add up all of the water that's going in, but you can't do a normal sum because the water isn't in discrete lumps -- you have to add up all the infinitesimal increments.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 21:53:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ok, thanks.
Reshi86 · 2 points · Posted at 23:31:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is something only people who have taken analysis would know.
I disagree. I have taken analysis but the good introductory (applied) calculus courses I have seen properly introduce integrals as sums. MIT Single Variable Calculus for example.
But then you don't have to explain why the rectangles of near zero (limit as Delta x approaches 0) width have area.
[deleted] · 6 points · Posted at 18:52:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
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[deleted] · 4 points · Posted at 19:21:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Don't get me wrong, I thought some parts of calculus were fun back then, it's just that the lecturers were always pretty boring and sometimes it was hard to get motivation to study or even go in my case. Even though I went to an Ivy league school and had really talented professors (award winners and such), they often taught in a very boring way and mathematics is subject where you have to pay attention to pretty much everything or you'll run into roadblocks further down the line, so over coming that boredom was a very important step to being successful in my major, however, the more advanced the subject matter became, the more I got interested and the better the lectures got because they taught with conviction about those subjects, making it a lot more bearable.
I think a lot of people fail because they don't have a lot of discipline (like pretty much everything) and they lose motivation. Good communication helps maintain the student's motivation and that's most important. Also explaining what the math is actually used for is really important, in high school, I had no idea what expanding and factorizing was actually used for until the later years, like if I had known the use and how useful it was, I would have much more motivated to put in the effort. The same with logarithms, same with matrices, etc.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:53:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
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[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:27:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, it is more difficult but a little more interesting in my opinion. I did better at that level than the previous level - a lot more rewarding! I loved the feeling of solving or doing a problem at that level, so it drove me to do well.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:46:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yup, the Venn diagram for people who have an excellent understanding of math and people who are really good teachers has very little overlap.
Reshi86 · 1 points · Posted at 23:30:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm working towards my masters in math. I tutor and it takes a certain personality to be good at math and be able to teach it well. That being said I have had great professors and poor ones.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 00:01:19 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
It does take a certain personality to teach math, unfortunately my lower level courses were taught by pretty boring professors, that being said, my higher level stuff was taught much better and with much more enthusiasm (maybe because the professors liked to relate it with their research). I've tutored in the past and I learned a lot about students perspectives of mathematics and the problems with how math is taught today. Tutoring people for calculus was eye opening when I learned it wasn't really the concepts of calculus that was difficult for students, it was basic stuff like algebra, I was confused how some of them got that far (even more confusing is the fact I tutored at an Ivy league school). It pretty much made me realize that the grading system we have for mathematics is pretty bad and students aren't being assessed correctly, A, B, C isn't good enough in my opinion (or equivalent) because I see students come into courses because they passed the previous but they got Bs or even Cs and don't have a grasp on the fundamentals.
Maybe they should make the tests easier and focus more on fundamentals, with the condition that the students get the whole test right or close to.
Reshi86 · 1 points · Posted at 01:17:37 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yea I agree. 90% of the students I see struggling with Calculus, it's not because they are struggling with the Calculus concepts it's because their algebra skills are poor.
Lmfao...so specific. To be even more specific, the concepts of limits and infinity escape most of my students. Slope and area approximations are just fine, but how they're approximated bewilders a fair amount
To be fair, the concept of infinity is pretty ridiculous. Especially when you learn there are different "sizes" of infinity -- like with (un)countable number sets.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 18:11:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's ridiculous because of how absurdly small a portion of a curve is.
When you're doing the very basics of calculus, taking several areas underneath the curve, it makes sense. Then you take smaller and smaller subsections until you eventually are taking the area of a rectangle with an impossibly small width.
Sure, it makes sense, especially after you understand it, like you do. But when you're first trying to grasp what an integral does and how it accomplishes that, the idea of an infinitely small width is ridiculous to consider. At the same time, it's incredibly cool once you understand the math.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:32:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
True, it's not the best explanation. Nonetheless, infinity is a confusing idea to those who have not really been exposed to it before in an actual mathematical setting, which is made obvious by the number of students often perplexed by it in intro calculus courses.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:49:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just curious, which one do you have in mind?
And even so, I don't see how that's in any way incongruous with what I said.
The set known as "real numbers" exists in the real world.
I suppose, I am guessed what you meant by your "but math world is not the real world." and I may have guessed wrongly. I therefore now ask if you could elaborate what you mean by "but math world is not the real world.".
Not necessarily. It could have some granularity at a scale like 10-35 , but that's beyond our current technology.
There is as far as I know no justifiable reason to believe that it would have such granularity at that scale. You may as well believe in that god caused the Big Bang to happen if you believe that granularity appears at a scale of 10-35; both are as justified. Keep in mind the difference between something being true and being justified in believing that it is true.
In my statement earlier, I was speaking more to the fact that just because something can't be replicated in reality doesn't mean it's mathematically incorrect.
Thanks! Yeah, one such case is the Dirac delta function, which has as far as I know no precise real world analogue although several real cases can to a high degree be approximated as such delta functions.
Ridiculous only in that the concepts of increasing without bound or vanishing distances can behave somewhat unintuitively sometimes.
Take a surface with infinitely large surface area, for example. In most cases such a manifold would be able to "hold an infinite amount of water" (i.e. has infinite volume). But if you play around with comparative growth rates (exponential growth versus the limiting behavior of, say, any polynomial shows a stark contrast) you can end up with something like Gabriel's Horn (aka the Torricelli Trumpet) where you get a finite volume because of the vanishing diameter.
I think OP just meant "ridiculous" in that tons of unexpected stuff can happen and reckoning about infinity for the first time can, conceptually, be a tricky task.
Sure they are. Maybe not introductory calculus, but it is often of interest when, say, a function is differentiable on all but a countable set of points in its domain (or, more generally, differentiable on its whole domain EXCEPT a subset of measure zero)
What my comment says is that different sizes of infinity don't really have anything to do with calculus, which they don't. You only really encounter one concept of infinity in calculus and it's not a complex one.
I understood what you meant, but it's still besides the point. My point related to calculus was that infinity is complicated.
My mention of multiple infinities was a separate statement about infinity in general, unrelated to calculus, but related to the idea of infinity being confusing.
It's tough to differentiate between people who do and don't know calculus. Although it some ways the 10% that do know calculus are good at integrating with society.
Ohhh my god in high school calculus was my favorite class. I definitely was not the smartest person in that room, and it was amazing to see how many people didn't understand what was going on.
Calc is just something that seems to scare a lot of people off. I found it easier than trig.
Barne · 3 points · Posted at 18:27:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well what about integrating using trig substitution? Calculus is harder than trig for a couple of reasons, one of them being that you use trig all the time in calc. Trig in itself isn't very hard, just a lot of memorization.
I dunno, calc just seemed to click more for me, maybe it was the possibilities of its use like in physics and stuff. Trig seemed like it had a steeper learning curve, but it could have been that I just didn't really care about trig at the time. Also my calc teacher was a lot better.
Reshi86 · 1 points · Posted at 23:38:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I marked in math so I only took Gen physics 1 and 2 but we did virtually all of it with algebra and trig. Of course all of it could be done with Calculus but it wasnt necessary. The only part I recall that had to use Calc was a few parts of E&M
It's not that hard to learn, it just requires practice and patience. You also have to follow somewhat of an order in learning it as everything builds off of the previous, so you also have to really learn the beginner stuff to get to the more advanced, useful stuff.
God I love math. I got to calc 2 before I took a different direction and needed to concentrate on other subjects. I commented above about how some butthead told me I was bad at math while trying to explain percentages to him. I was very offended because I'm not good at a whole lot, but math is one of them.
tpklus · 1 points · Posted at 18:10:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I love math. I particularly love statistics. But, calculus I could never understand.
You shouldn't take prolonged breaks on your phones at your equipment at the gym because other people are waiting to use it. Incredible how oblivious some people can get
Edit: As I've stated in a reply further below, I am all for taking breaks between sets because it is necessary to have a safe, energized workouts but people seem to gloss over the word prolonged. I'm talking about people who hog machines for ridiculous amounts of time after sets because time passes unbeknownst to them while they're texting away, impeding with other people's workouts
I look at my phone while resting in between sets. I have a timer set so I'm not taking more time than I need to, and if someone wants to use the equipment I'm using, I'm more than happy to alternate.
I've seen people having full-on phone conversations in the gym for over half an hour, doing nothing in between though. Those people can fuck off.
Yeah I don't really think there's anything wrong with looking at a phone screen while resting instead of staring at a wall or some cute guy's ass. Plus humans can always do that thing where they use their mouth to make sounds and ask you if they could use the machine
yup i keep my timer on my phone running and use the lap function to time breaks inbetween sets as well. I found if i dont do that i'll end up either having a 10 second break or a 5 minute one. oops.
I made an iPhone app for timing rest periods at the gym, which I had just uploaded when I saw this comment. If anyone is interested, it would be cool to have people check it out! It's free and has no ads. I do apologise for the shameless self promotion though I know that's not what reddit's about.
If I'm waiting for the cashier to be done with the customer in front of me, why can't I be on my phone? It's not like there should be a flow of traffic going around me. We're all literally queued up, waiting to get to that person. Maybe I don't understand this example.
I meant more the people who are on their phone instead of putting their items on the counter, or putting in their payment info. That one isn't the best of most annoying examples compared to standing in walking lanes everywhere.
Phone zombies on elevators really bugs the shit out of me. Constantly getting off on the wrong floor only to stop the door from closing to get back on. Motherfucker get off your damn phone for the 10 seconds it takes you to use the elevator.
Many times I've pictured myself kicking them square in the chest "YOU ALREADY MADE YOUR CHOICE!"
RichWPX · 2 points · Posted at 19:48:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ugh just the other day I was behind someone on a phone while riding an escalator. As she stepped off, she stayed right on the metal platform, totally oblivious to the fact that I was about to be thrust into her by the moving stairs.
I actually don't either, I work out at home, cause I'll go along with this whole exercise to keep in shape thing but I'll be damned if I put on shorts/pants and drive somewhere to do it.
It really is the best. I don't have to wear any extra clothes, I can listen to my music as loud as I want on speakers. I can probably do most my workout in the time that people take to get ready, drive to the gym and get started. And then I'm 30 feet from my shower.
People always ask how I find the motivation to work out alone at home. I'm not sure how they find the motivation to put on pants and go outside just to go inside another building to workout with a bunch of people you don't know sweating and making noise around you.
I mean, I don't go to the gym, so I have no issue with this one, but I'd imagine it's the same as the other situations, it's not so much that you're checking your phone, but just step the hell back out of the way first.
Just a little bit of awareness and consideration about the space you occupy would make things nicer almost everywhere.
Not just with phones, though. If you need to stop and look at something in the store, stop and look for your car, or just generally stop for anything where you would normally be moving, then step aside. Don't just halt in the doorway or in the middle of the aisle. It's fucking annoying.
And ffs, parking lots are not legal roads, but you should still look before going! There may not be a stop sign there but there's not one going the other way, either, so take half a second to peek around the corner before nearly pulling out into someone.
You know what's fun? Listen to their conversation and then interject tidbits.
I started talking to a guy that was on the phone once, He kept talking on the phone and I'd say "Huh? What?" He pointed to his phone. I was like Yeah I don't care. So hot enough for ya?
To counter this point, I've noticed people don't understand that regardless of how strong you are, large weights require large breaks. Every time I go to the gym with newcomers and we do similar reps of equally personally challenging weights, they end up criticising me on my recovery time. I'm no biologist and I have no idea why it's the case, but trust me I need my phone time after sets. I'm not tryna sit on a bench for 2 minutes thinking about life.
I've noticed myself getting annoyed seeing people browsing their phone between sets and then realizing that I have no idea how long they've actually been there. I'm doing my own shit, I'm not really timing people, and the few times I've moved around my routine because someone was occupying a space and browsing their phone it doesn't seem like they were taking noticeably longer than anyone else to finish. For all I know they took exactly as long as someone else without a phone, but I guess because I thought they might be enjoying themselves they somehow might be slower and not as motivated to finish quickly as someone who would have to stare at a wall.
Now I judge a little less.
Druid51 · 4 points · Posted at 18:50:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
More mass needs more recovery and I guess we're just fookin hyooge.
On the flip side to that... Speak up if you're looking to get in on a machine. People get annoyed about taking too much time, but then quietly sit there and glare at the rack from the other side of the gym.
Approach me and ask, "hey what do you have left?" if it is a lot, or I just got started maybe ask, "mind if I work in with you?" I pretty much never mind Sharing a rack with somebody. In fact I encourage it because it makes use of the equipment during rest.
If I'm almost done? Eh maybe just chill for a rep or two and hang out - offer to spot if needed, or do stretches.
I've never had a bad encounter at the gym talking to people or sharing a rack. Everybody is there to work out and I find so many people eager to share their routines and diets and successes.
But please don't share bench equipment without wiping or using towels. Sharing sweat is gross yo.
I don't think so... Squat racks often have bars that are about the right hight to start at for an overhead press and allows you to do the exercise without moving the weight between the ground and your chest.
Squats racks are really just 'racks' imo, and should be used for rack exercises.
If your rack has spot bars that adjust for it, I'd even be fine with somebody benching in the rack if they need that spot bar security.
If your gym is crowded, racks are often the best place to do deadlifts and rows (ours actually has shin high racks for these)...
Curls in the squat rack is a literal phrase... But also more to highlight the idea of recognizing if there is a better place to perform your exercise.
A real low rack makes it easier to take the plates on and off. So you can throw on the first couple plates, then bring it to the floor.
Shin height for me is about how far a 45 brings the bar off the ground, so floor/shin is about the same for me on that. But if I had 25s on the bar, I'd want to bring them up a little bit.
Awesome. That was my justification, but I've only been lifting about 18 months, so it's entirely possible I still commit some faux pas.
tynorex · 6 points · Posted at 17:27:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I sit on my phone for the 3 minute resting period I need after my lifts. I get really frustrated with my "long" wait times too, but it's what I'm supposed to do for a proper workout. If I ever see people waiting I normally will try to rush it a little quicker, but I normally don't hold a machine/bench for more than ~15 minutes.
bpusef · 4 points · Posted at 18:30:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If people don't have the social skills to ask if they can work in while I'm resting then I really don't care. I'm staying out of people's way and if you want what I'm on then just ask. I'm not going to get up and sit in a corner because people are too afraid to have a 3 second conversation.
tynorex · 1 points · Posted at 18:48:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't know if my gym is just really small or what but I've literally never had anyone ask to use a machine I'm using.
But what about the people who go off and talk in-between sets while you give them a death glare for taking ages while you're waiting to get in? I don't particularly mind the phone people since, in my experience, they're usually using it to time their breaks while they dick around on the phone.
There's nothing wrong with taking some time to take a needed break between sets; it's necessary for a safe, energized workout and everyone knows it. It's when people seem to sit there for 5+ minutes on their phone for "breaks" between multiple sets each time that it becomes truly inconsiderate
[deleted] · 16 points · Posted at 17:03:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
5 minutes is a pretty standard rest time for doing strength or power work in any of the major lifts. You want to be fully rested in between sets. 3-5 minutes of rest is typical for muscle building or endurance work, but anything for increasing your RFD or limit strength is better served with long rest periods.
5 minutes is a long time (and it's what I do). I typically just offer to have the person work in with me if it's bench, or something like that.
[deleted] · 7 points · Posted at 17:11:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In all fairness, I do offer up a work-in if I'm at a public gym. I'm not fucking with my rest times just because someone is impatient and doesn't understand how to work out correctly. I workout in a private powerlifting and strength gym now so it's not really ever a problem. Everyone is basically running the same stuff anyways.
It is absolutely within proper gym etiquette to ask to "work in" and as a courtesy, when you go to rest, you should put the weights back to what the other person had. They may or may not set your weights but you should still set theirs back. I shouldn't even need to say, you should use a towel or wipe down the machine in between sets.
AbeRego · 3 points · Posted at 17:40:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I understand the sentiment, but I'm going to be sitting there for recovery time between sets anyway. I just happen to be looking at my phone.
ZNasT · 3 points · Posted at 17:53:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There's also the people who put their phones on the bench-press bench while using the squat rack. Just put your shit on the ground, or on the window sill, or your pocket. Just don't take up an entire piece of equipment just for your phone.
The gym for our apartment is right by the leasing office. We have a guy who will pace the gym floor, sit on random equipment, generally be loud and rude while talking on his phone.
And then leave.
He never works out, but apparently he feels like he does.
tynorex · 1 points · Posted at 17:29:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I've seen a guy do this at my gym. I'm convinced he tells his wife he's headed to the gym, dicks around for an hour and then goes home. Don't think I've ever seen him use a single machine.
Ludicrous. Go to a coffee shop or some shit. If your wife is going to follow you there, you've got other shit going on you need to fix besides lack of lifting.
If you want me to get off the bench press you can just walk up and tell me. But there is another open one next to me
DJSBX · 2 points · Posted at 17:05:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When I do go to the gym for weight stuff, or anything that requires breaks, I use my phone to time my breaks, so even if I'm dicking around on my phone I will stop dicking around the second my alarm goes off to do my next set. It's not quite as black and white, but I will agree about people that take an exceedingly long break because they don't realize their break is probably over already.
994phij · 2 points · Posted at 17:25:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Don't forget that if somebody is taking a long break, you should ask if you can work in with them. Okay, it doesn't apply to all equipment, but does apply to most.
This also applies for people walking out of doors, elevators, escalators, etc. to check where they need to go next (regardless of phone). There's people behind you, step aside!!
I take 1.5-3 minutes rest between compound sets, and I like to browse social media during that time...you can either ask to work in or suck it up if you don't like it
My program has me take 3 to 5 minute rest between sets. I just ask people to work in. Also, r/fitness mods banned me for asking a question about a backpack so fuck them.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:29:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I mean you can take prolonged breaks. Just let other use the equipment while you rest. And you can go and ask if you can use the equipment while the others rest. You don't have to be the only one using the equipment.
sounds exactly like my college roommate. saw him in the gym one on that sitting shoulder press deal. sat down, did a couple reps, sat on his phone for 5 minutes, coughing up a lung the whole time as he always did, another couple reps, another 4 minute break
If I'm resting between sets, I'll dick around on my phone. If you want to alternate sets with me, you gotta ask. Don't expect me to read your mind. Some folks use apps to track their progress, and between sets I'll update my log as I go.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:59:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Fuck you I pay the same amount as every off else. If I want to take a break when I'm doing a max set then I fucking will.
Sure, you go tell the 300lb power lifter that he should hurry up his 5 plate deadlift :P But seriously, yeah after a minute you should start getting ready for your next set...
Not true. Rest periods between sets can be as long as 5 minutes if you're lifting for strength/power.
If you want to work in then you should get their attention and ask. If they're unreasonable at that point then they are in the wrong, but not if you don't initiate the conversation.
Yeah it was just a general rule of thumb. Of course if you're power lifting for strength training the time might be longer. I think 60-90s is a nice average wait time between sets for regular workouts.
And that's totally fine, depends on the type of lifting style you are doing.
[deleted] · -10 points · Posted at 17:17:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's ridiculously long. Something like 90 percent of ATP is supposed to be replenished after 90 seconds. Lifting heavy should be a bit longer but you aren't recovering anymore with a 5 minute breaks vs a 3 minute ish.
And if you're lifting near your max, with low reps for strength, 3-5 minutes can be typical to get back to the near-100% numbers you need.
[deleted] · -10 points · Posted at 17:20:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A big strong man like you and the other poster will be fine after 3 minutes. Anything longer is a waste of time. You won't ever get back to 100 percent within the span of your workout.
I promise you that next time you lift waiting 5 minutes vs 3 wont allow you to lift any more. Just try it and be amazed at your bodies abilities.
Edit: I apologize if I offended the athletes and weight lifters of Reddit but if you are waiting 5 minutes between sets you are just lazy. There is no way it should take you nearly a half hour to do a 5 x 5 workout.
But either way, I see no reason to think that people who wait 5 minutes between sets are lazy, or inconsiderate. If you look around you will see plenty of sources which state 3-5 minutes is optimal for strength training. It could be that we are working off inaccurate information, but that is neither lazy nor inconsiderate. Sometimes people are just wrong.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:59:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Alright that's fair. Sorry for being a dick. I think you could likely get away with shorter rest times without seeing a decrease in performance is all I'm saying.
I'm not claiming to be an expert or anything, but I've literally just come off 6 months of Stronglifts 5x5. It's a strength program for the big lifts. 5 sets of 5 reps, 90 seconds between them. Increase weight by 5lbs every session. That is basically fine for the first 2/3 months until you start hitting ceilings.
As per the app, if I was seriously struggling to hit 5 reps, I'd wait 3 minutes instead of 90 seconds. If I failed to hit 5 reps, it would tell me to wait 5 minutes. From experience, there is a huge difference in making the next set with a 5 minute wait and a 3 minute wait. I was doing this for months. It was a regular experience.
Now don't get me wrong. This leads to super long workouts and I've since switched to PHUL, with more stringent limits on how much I can rest in between sets to save time. However, for a purely strength-focused progression, 5 minute rests had an immediate impact on how many reps I could push out, and potentially a longer term impact on increasing weights lifted.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:08:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You have NO CLUE what you are talking about. Try a powerlifting dead workout like 12x2 at 80-90% 1rm and you will not only need 5+ minutes between sets but possibly a break for some fuel 2/3 of the way through. A workout like that, done at proper intensity, can easily take 90-100 minutes
Could be. But I do know that when I moved onto 5 minutes between sets I started to have really good results again. Might only be psychological, but I can't argue with the results.
Literally 99% of everything is made of chemicals. The definition of a chemical is a compound comprised of more than one element. And no something is not inherently worse if it's synthetic, botulinum, the deadliest shit known to human kind is naturally produced by bacteria.
If some add campaign tries to sell their shit by saying all natural and chemical free they're talking out their ass and trying to manipulate you.
Edit: As to the other 1%, by convention pure elements generally aren't considered chemicals because they can't be refined by chemical processes.
Did you know that poison dart frogs are not toxic on their own but rather gain their toxins from what they eat? Pet poison dart frogs fed in captivity are non toxic.
briaen · 7 points · Posted at 20:01:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sorry, I forgot to include wild caught and free range in my description.
learath · 30 points · Posted at 17:11:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I strongly support all the anti-chemical people boycotting all chemicals.
[deleted] · 10 points · Posted at 18:55:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, that shits everywhere! I heard the government puts it in the water... OUR WATER!!! Please contact your local representative and ask the about all the dihydrogen monoxide in the water. They will just blow you off and pretend it's nothing they'll tell you you're crazy. It's a cover up, wake up sheeple!!!
I'm not a chemist, but this had me curious. From what I've found the definition of a chemical is: anything that has mass. Anything consisting of matter is a chemical. Any liquid, solid, gas. Any pure substance; any mixture.
Technically that is correct, but for practical reasons pure elements are not usually considered chemicals. It is much more practical to just refer to pure elements as just... elements rather and chemicals as compounds.
if we are going to get all "for practical purposes" on this bs then absolutely need to think more narrow. For laymen, chemicals are things that are processed and made in labs vs things that are grown in the ground and made by your crazy neighbor Betsy for her online candle business.
Mm, but I think that most of us understand the colloquial subtext intended when people talk about chemicals or 'natural' things in these contexts and most don't literally think that 'natural' products are chemical-free, just that they supposedly lack artificially synthesised chemicals and substances.
I do think that the term is intentionally misleading, obfuscates the meaning of chemical, and paints all such substances to be negative unfairly, but I don't think 90% of people aren't aware of what's really being implied.
My wife is a chemistry teacher and this annoys the SHIT out of her, along with "if you can't pronounce it, it doesn't belong in your food." She found these awesome posters where some chemist made "nutritional information labels" for fruits and veggies, the list of "ingredients" is hella long and I've never even heard of 99% of the shit that's in there.
I mean sure I get that when it comes to food, some companies are/have been unethical or unscrupulous about what they put in food to make it cheap, tasty, and last long, and some artificial stuff is really not good for you (looking at YOU, high-fructose corn syrup!), but the shorthands that activists come up with are incredibly imprecise and misleading.
Saying "eating natural food products is usually better for you then eating artificial foods" is probably true by and large, but there are just massive amounts of exceptions to that, and "the name of that ingredient looks scary!" is just an insanely shitty metric to use when judging whether you should eat something.
I like this. People see something as synthetic and think it's bad. Synthetic compound vs natural compounds are identical. Maybe there would be an isotope difference in certain situations. But we would be talking about extremely minute differences.
I hate this distinction. People always give me this confused look when I tell them I study synthetic organic chemistry, then I gotta be like "did I stutter?"
Haha, that's funny. Reaction, column, spectra, reaction, column, spectra. I always felt that organic is super cool but holy cow can it be labor intensive! I spent so much time using and learning about nmr to possibly never use it in materials chem. :/
I don't know where you're getting elements aren't chemicals. Pure hydrogen is just a hydrogen atom, but is extremely unstable and will want to to form H2 through a chemical reaction.
Some people use "chemical" as a shorthand for "compounds which have not been tested throughout multiple lifetimes and to which humans have not had the time to adapt". It doesn't help that a lot of them are added to food as a poison/preservative, or to trick the senses possibly to hide poor nutritional value.
calembo · 1 points · Posted at 02:18:23 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'll add to this: it's not a real selling point to tell me your non-GMO-eligible food is non-GMO. It's like telling me a tomato is vegan. Let's not even start with what GMOs actually are or do.
Edit: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_substance "A chemical substance (also called a pure substance) may well be defined as "any material with a definite chemical composition" in an introductory general chemistry textbook.[4] According to this definition a chemical substance can either be a pure chemical element or a pure chemical compound."
Must agree with you, but yet again, definitions of certain things change wildly depending on the particular field, language/country, as there is no world consensus as to what a "chemical" is. Might also help that chemical is usually followed by another word (compound/substance or idk what) to give more detail about what is being referred to.
Why are there holes in bagels? [I'm am part of the 90% here]
Patch95 · 60 points · Posted at 17:17:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So they cook quickly and evenly, as they are boiled in water with a bit of sugar, otherwise it would take too long to cook the inside before the outside was done
There are a lot of foods shaped with a hole in the middle to promote even cooking - for example, a bundt cake without the characteristic ring shape would be overcooked on the outside before the center was fully cooked. Bagels, to some extent, benefit from this as well. It also increases the surface area of the food, which is important for things that rely on a crust or browning for their flavor and texture.
I swear it's taxes. I've lost count of how many times I've heard something like "my wife went back to work, but it moved us up into the next tax bracket and we paid out more money in higher taxes than she was bringing in." No, that's just not how it works.
No, no, no. Computers are trying to get us, not the trees.
lutiana · 7 points · Posted at 19:24:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well they probably did pay out more that it was worth to have her work, however I highly doubt it was merely taxes that did it. I'd guess other factors came into play, perhaps benefits? Daycare? More than a few people I know seem to consider their benefit payments to be a tax, though it's not. And some others looked at the cost of daycare vs income earned by the parent who was not working to raise the kid and ultimately realized they'd lose money on that deal (they had twins and a toddler, daycare is ridiculously expensive around here).
There is a magically trick of numbers that does sometimes (very seldomly though) equate to lower take home pay after a raise. It has happened to me, but it was not just the increased tax burden that did it, it was everything that lined up (increased benefits cost, higher tax rate on some of the income and some other minor changes). Thankfully it was short lived.
It actually can work exactly like that. It's called the marriage penalty. For example, if I and my fiancé both make 90,000, under the current bracket we each pay 25% in taxes. Once we get married and file together, our income now puts us in the 28% bracket. Likewise, if I make $233,000 and she doesn't work, we are in the 28% bracket. If my wife goes back to work and makes more than $350, the tax bill on the money I make goes up by roughly $10k because we are now in the 33% bracket, and that's before we starting figuring out the taxes and social security and whatnot on what she is making.
Even if her going back to work doesn't end up in a tax bill that is literally higher than either her nominal pay or her take home, it can be pretty easy for the increased tax bill to be high enough that the overall increase in take home pay is not worth the hours she's putting into her new job. If she got a 40k a year job at 40 hours a week, in terms of joint income, she's effectively only making about 30k due to how much more we are paying on my taxes. And instead of paying 10%, 15%, on 25% on various chunks of it like a single person making 40k would, she/we are now paying 33% on the entire 40k. That's another $13,200, bringing her income for her 40 hours a week easily below 20k a year, and that's before you start pulling social security and everything else out of it. Would you work 40 hours a week at a 40k/year job for ~15k a year in take home? I sure as hell wouldn't.
Edit: I'm an idiot, the bit about her income increasing my tax bill is entirely incorrect. Her entire income would be taxed at 33% however, which often makes it not worth the labor even if it doesn't literally result in a lower income - and arguably it could result in a lower income if we are now paying someone for things like child care that she used to take care of.
The first example makes sense (90k at 25% or 180k at 28%) but the second one doesn't seem quite right (please tell me where I'm wrong) as brackets are on the amount in the bracket. So if we simplify and say that 233k is the cut off for 28% and your partner makes 1k then you are only taxed at 33% for that additional 1k. Meaning your tax bill is increased by 0.33*1000 = $330, not ~10k.
So while the rest of your point as to that whole 40k being taxed at 33% and how that may not be personally worthwhile is spot on, I don't see how the $350 in your example (or 1k in mine because I don't like hard math) translates to an out of proportion increase.
Oh I'm an idiot, you are correct. That's what I get for doing this in pieces during the work day. Regardless, the marriage penalty is a thing, and being in a high bracket can make having a spouse go back to work not be worth it, even if it's not literally resulting in a lower total income.
[deleted] · 214 points · Posted at 14:02:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I hear so many people saying "oh that's not healthy, it has loads of calories". Calorie content, in my opinion, doesn't equate to the healthiness of the food. If something is incredibly dense in nutrients and vitamins, even if it has a lot of calories it should still be considered healthy.
Because a calorie is a unit of energy. No such thing as a "good calorie" or "bad calorie" - it is simply a discrete amount of energy required to raise 1g of water by 1 degree Celsius
Huh... I didn't know they listed it as "calories" on food items in America.
In Denmark it's listed as "kcal" and people only call it "calories" because they don't know any better.
Hyndis · 1 points · Posted at 21:46:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Its the same thing. The only difference is that in the US people have mostly dropped using the prefix kilo. The kilo part may not be listed on American packaging but its still the same unit of energy.
Hyndis · 1 points · Posted at 21:45:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Kilo-calories are used for food. However the kilo prefix has mostly been dropped so its just calories. Sometimes you do see it listed as kcals, but mostly its just calories, sans the kilo- prefix.
Calories (the non-kilo kind) are such a tiny unit of energy they're not relevant unless you're a single celled organism.
More to the point, the physics and engineering communities want nothing to do with calories, because the definitions are tainted by misuse. Energy is measured in joules.
Hyndis · 1 points · Posted at 16:50:20 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
The topic is calories in food, not energy in physics or engineering.
Pack670 · 2 points · Posted at 20:03:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Do note that his description of calorie is right, but food Calories (note the capitol c) are actually kilocalories. A calorie is ~4.18 joules but a Calorie is ~4.18 kilojoules. Doesn't really change anything but some people like the perspective.
Technically correct, but people use it as more of a ratio of "calories to nutrients". 200 calories of spinach and 200 calories of doughnuts give the same amount of energy. The spinach will provide you with other vitamins and stuff that the doughnut doesnt, hence those are 'good' calories while the doughnuts are 'bad' or 'empty' calories.
I agree to a point, but think you have to look at the total package of what's wrapped around those calories.
Implying that 100 calories of french fries are exactly nutritionally the same as 100 calories of salad is very misleading, I think.
Eating a carrot is better than drinking a calorically equivalent amount of soda, because the carrot has vitamins and minerals and fiber that the soda does not.
If you have a set number of calories you can eat in a day, filling up on nutritionally sparse calories like soda and chips and cake will leave your health worse than eating better stuff like vegetables, whole grains, and beans.
kaett · 2 points · Posted at 18:01:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
there's also no way to determine (at least in the studies i've seen) how many of the calories that food contains are utilized by the body and how many are expelled as waste product.
[deleted] · 4 points · Posted at 17:12:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Your completely missing the point of the words good and bad in this situation and trying to use them in a misguided literal way. They do not designate wether the unit of energy is inherently good or bad, they refer to wether the calorie is nutritional dense or not (since a lot of nutrition is negligible in energy). The reason for this is because the health of a diet isn't well measured by just caloric intake, other nutrition is also an important factor. Thus the phrase good or bad calorie is a convenient way to explain whether something is nutritionally dense or not in comparison to its caloric content. Language can be figurative, get over it.
Some calories make you feel more/less full, or have more/less vitamins. In the literal sense there is no such thing as a good/bad calorie, but in the practical sense there sure as hell is.
Except for that's not the way language works. 400 calories of chicken breast is a good calorie when used that way while 400 calories or chocolate cake is a bad calorie because it has no nutrients.
while 400 calories or chocolate cake is a bad calorie because it has no nutrients.
This is a good example of someone who doesn't understand what calories are. It's impossible for a substance with "no nutrients" to have even one food calorie, let alone 400. A substance with "no nutrients" has exactly zero food calories, by definition.
Are you autistic? There's no need to be so thick if you aren't I've reiterated twice now that when people are using these words they aren't being literal.
Your entire post is a non sequitur. Now, to see if you know what you're talking about or not (or if you can figure it out with the help of Google), go ahead and explain why it's impossible for something with no nutrients to have any food calories.
By the way, the minimum that something with 400 food calories can have is ~1.6 ounces of pure nutrients, which is a far cry from "no nutrients".
"Good calories" when said by a sane, modern person doesn't literally mean "good units of energy". It means "foodstuff that provide you not only the energy but also other nutrition and has a glycemic index that in combination allow you easier to have a healthy diet". And "bad calories" means "foodstuff that apart from being calorie-dense and/or having high glycemic index provide not much more".
And if you want to be THAT precise calories are insignificant. Any meaningful quantity will have at least few tens of kilocalories.
Jingy_ · 3 points · Posted at 19:52:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"bureaucrat Chinstrap_1, you are technically correct. THE BEST KIND OF CORRECT"
You're being pedantic and nitpicking a technicality of the words, purely for the sake of being technically correct.
No Good/Bad Calories is not a scientific measurement/category. But people(generally speaking) aren't trying to use it as one.
It IS however a TURN OF PHRASE, used to mean "A calories worth of nutritious food, vs, A calories worth of neutral or harmful food".
That is how Language works. Many perfectly valid phrases, whose meaning is perfectly clear(if you choose to see it), would be Technically "incorrect" if you choose to ignore context and intent and only pay attention to the dictionary definition of the individual words used.
If we were to try to completely avoid that, then all communication would be needlessly awkward, complicated and overly detailed.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 19:57:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Jingy_ · 2 points · Posted at 20:41:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
1: Disagreement on the idea that "90% of people don't understand this" part.
2: You were pedantically continuing to argue the technical definition of the words with someone who had already clearly indicated that they were referring to the functional use of the phrase. (which no longer fits the thread topic of "common misconceptions")
It depends. If you're trying to lose weight and are eating 4,000 calories of food you're not going to be successful no matter what kinds of food you're eating or how nutritious they are.
no because multivitamins are shite. Get your vitamins from actual food.
As someone mentioned a calorie is simply a unit of energy. For example, people think nuts are unhealthy because of the high calorie, high fat content. Eating a massive bag of nuts would be unhealthy, however nuts themselves are actually very healthy.
Actually, nuts are a way better example! Sorry, I was at the doctors and needed something on the fly =)
And like you say, nuts in large quantities are terrible, but that's because they're high in calories. If you make a whole meal out of them (or make a habit of snacking on them too much), you're gonna get fat.
Yes that's true. But they are still healthy food when eaten in reasonable quantities. Which is true of any nutritious, calorie dense food. Which is my point.
hahaha. That sounds about right. My apologies for contributing to said understanding. Hope you weren't at the doctors for anythign serious! get well soon!
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:52:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There is no way you lost weight eating 4,000 calories a day unless you're grossly obese to begin with. A calorie really is a calorie. People have lost weight eating nothing but Twinkies.
All calories are the same. Unless your body was so huge it required more than 4000 per day to maintain, you can't lose weight just changing the type of food you gain those calories from.
[deleted] · -1 points · Posted at 17:58:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Weight has a very strong correlation with health. There are numerous studies of how being overweight causes everything from digestive problems to breathing problems to heart disease. Being overweight increases your chance of early death significantly.
[deleted] · -5 points · Posted at 18:16:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
if you're burning 5000 calories then you will be successful
[deleted] · -2 points · Posted at 19:14:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Now now that's just no true. People can eat 4k calories and still lose weight. Just because most Americans are couch potatoes doesn't mean all of us are.
That's actually not exactly so simple. In the developed world, it's impossible to suffer a vitamin deficiency (and if you do it will be easily corrected by your doctor). For 99% of healthy people, by far the most important thing is maintaining a healthy weight. Since more than 70% of Americans are overweight, it's better that people adhere to the simplification that high calorie foods are unhealthy rather than think it's okay to eat a lot high calorie foods just because they contain vitamins, minerals, antioxidants, etc.
I agree. You still need to consume calories to not die.
Just don't over-consume them. Keep it in check.
Personally, I eat whatever the fuck I want.. I just don't over-indulge. That's the key. You want that oven pizza and pan of brownies? Go for it. Just take it easy on your next meal and probably throw in a workout in between those meals.
I completely agree. I hear so many people giving out completely bonkers diet & health advice, it's ridiculous.
Describing how to eat healthy isn't hard. Eat mostly plants, eat lots of whole foods, minimize your intake of junk food like chips/ice cream, don't eat more calories than you burn, get a good balance of macros / vitamins, and exercise a bit. That's like 90% of it.
But it's pretty boring advice, so people instead gravitate to a new glitzy "miracle health cure" and fad diet du jour every 6 months.
yeah the diets piss me off, regardless of whether they work or not. I think most of them are designed to make the weight fall off of you quickly but a lot of them involve cutting out big food groups or whatever and nobody wants to do that forever. The most sustainable method is eating a balanced diet of sufficient calories.
I agree. I have one co-worker who always seems to be on some new unhealthy-sounding fad diet.
If it makes him happy, it's his life and I'm happy for him... but the explanations he's offered for a few of them sound really dodgy and very unhealthy and not based on any kind of sound science at all.
One of them is similar to atkins where he says he's getting something like 75% of his daily calories from fat and eats no carbs (meaning tons of healthy stuff like vegetables and beans are off the menu)
I can't see how that's remotely healthy in the long term, especially since high saturated fat intake has been pretty strongly linked to heart problems and high cholesterol.
Everybody has such different nutritional needs that it's so hard to label anything as "healthy."
A lot of people will say replacing red med in your diet with tofu is healthy, but if you have a hormonal imbalance or a soy allergy, eating tofu could fuck your shit up.
I want to add to this, my rules are simple and effective:
Eat food that makes you smile (chocolate, steak etc ... what ever fliats your boat).
Stop eating when you are full (exception for christmas etc.)
Dont put in more energy than you burn.
Learn how to cook (at least the basics)
Try variety.
If food is fun, tasty, exciting - life is better. Having a good relationship with food is important, having a good relationship with your body is important, having a good relationship with your mind is important. So eating food that makes you happy, moving around a bit, and eating the right ammount is far more important than eating "healthy".
I think people on diets would me more happy with eating less, but still eating food that makes them smile. And dont buy into any other diet than the one that works: Burn more energy than you put in.
Especially if you're taking to a cancer patient. Fat-filled shit with a stupid amount of calories is very healthy to a patient losing muscle and weight involuntarily.
I posted a recipe to a thread once asking for "healthy recipes". It's penne noodles, chicken, asparagus, and some parmesan on top. There's chicken broth and garlic powder used in the recipe, and that's pretty much it. You are able to swap some items for vegan options too. And the OP responded "yeah but that's not a healthy recipe". Uhh ok? What's not healthy about it? They never responded, but it still baffles me. Like, what, because it's pasta it's not healthy for you? It's a home cooked meal ffs. I feel like the OP just wanted low-calorie recipes like salads and shit, since that was everything that was upvoted.
Exactly. People always look at calorie dense food as being some kind of poison, but for a guy like me who is slightly underweight it's a godsend. High calorie foods only become unhealthy if you have trouble keeping your overall intake around the amount your body uses (which admittedly the majority of North America does)
satysin · 1 points · Posted at 16:25:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yup. I always remember a documentary I saw about super fat people trying to lose weight. They had one guy who wasn't losing weight yet he had totally changed his diet. He was eating fruits and vegetables and cut out all the processed crap he used to it. The problem? He was eating a shit load of food still. Like 14 apples, 8 bananas, 2 mangos, etc. He was still consuming around 4500 calories a day. The doctor was like "umm you can't expect to lose weight if you still eat that much" to which the guy responded "but fruit is healthy!". SMH.
Take it one step further, macros. Like it's quite hard to wrap my mind around the number of people I see in my keto group saying " it says i can eat 120g protein but I weigh 120g chicken and it's like nothing, how will I live like this?!?!".
Related to this, toxins and healthy and natural. What they mean is entirely subjective to the seller, and misunderstood by the buyer.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:30:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[removed]
Werrf · 862 points · Posted at 14:04:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The correct way to handle a closed lane on a multi-lane road, or a multi-lane road merging into one lane, is to stay in your lane until you reach the merge point, and then take turns merging - called a zipper merge or alternate merge. Merging early effectively reduces the road's carrying capacity and lengthens the tailbacks.
Fuck Jersey drivers. The absolute worst drivers in the country. See that car driving like an asshole, weaving through traffic, causing others to swerve out of the way and hit their brakes? NJ plates, every fucking time.
This is something I find annoying as all hell, I've driven in America, over 300 million people, cities with over ten million people, ye there will be traffic jams.
Get back to Sweden to my city of less than 100 000 people and still find traffic jams..fucking hell.
We have such narrow roads it's silly.
I see a lot of roads being built with only one lane in each direction..like have some foresight
It's not the taking turns that is objectionable, it's that cars in the merge lane zoom by the traffic and merge in further ahead.
[deleted] · 84 points · Posted at 15:00:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But that's permitted and makes traffic move faster for everyone, as opposed to multiple merge points. The only reason to find it objectionable is if you want to slow down traffic for everyone out of spite.
What is objectionable is people in the right lane jumping into the merge lane to jump ahead of others.
I was right about to merge onto the highway at 70mph, and when I check my mirrors I notice most people moving to let me merge like normal. Then some old bitch decides to change into the right lane to go faster just because there's less people in it, because they changed to let all the mergers through. I have to slam my breaks to avoid a collision with this idiot
Oli847 · 10 points · Posted at 16:53:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No, the throughput is dictated by the number of lanes available after the merge, where the merge happens doesn't change throughput. The queue to merge would go further back though, as it's starting further back.
But you're increasing the distance of the choke point by having people merge earlier.
Oli847 · 10 points · Posted at 17:34:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes, that's what I said. But the throughput is the same
Krumm · 2 points · Posted at 19:49:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Throughput is dictated by the speed of the input at the bottleneck. As in, how many can I put through here. By reducing breaking at the choke point, you increase the speed attainable through the bottleneck. By artificially moving the choke point back, we increase throughput at the bottleneck, and provide additional time to merge for traffic before the forced merge.
By artificially moving the choke point back, you're moving the bottleneck back. You haven't changed anything except wasting space that could be used to hold other cars.
Krumm · 1 points · Posted at 03:55:12 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Partially, I'm saying normalize/ optimize the speed going into the bottleneck. By moving the choke point back, you increase the speed at the forced "jam" spot, letting more traffic through the bottleneck. Once there's stopped traffic at the bottleneck, having a single line into it will raise the speed, if you can "zipper" without anyone hitting the breaks is fine, but that is impossible once traffic stops.
812many · 2 points · Posted at 18:03:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
After the merge people speed up again. If the merge point is a half mile up the road people still get to the destination at the same time.
[deleted] · 4 points · Posted at 18:58:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But that's permitted and makes traffic move faster for everyone,
15 years ago I was taught th exact opposite. That it greatly increases the risk of accidents because of the difference in velocities of the two lanes
We were also taught that the zipper approach only applied to roads designed to merge. Not temporary closers where the stop and go from people cutting in at last minute slows the entire road down for everyone, as waiting too late to merge forces you and others to stop to let you mergr. While merging earlier when the window naturally exists doesn't slow you or traffic down . How this keeps being repeated I'll never know
The speed differential with a long tail is EXACTLY why the zipper merge is so much safer. If you're in the non-merging lane all you have to do to avoid slowdowns for everyone is to leave a single-car gap.
[deleted] · 4 points · Posted at 19:20:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No. The speed differential is from people trying to go down the closed lane as far as possible to merge in. If the right lane has already slowed to 30mph(with gaps between cars so people can merge), and you're driving down the left at 60 you're the one increasing risk for everyone. It's safer to merge into the main lane of traffic then, when the openings are natural and the speed the same.
And how did that speed differential happen in the first place? That's right, early mergers. If both lanes drive to the merge point, not only are you not wasting that length of road but everyone's driving the same speed so the merge can happen smoothly and traffic flow is optimized.
[deleted] · 4 points · Posted at 19:37:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No the speed differential can happen for many reasons. The most common is that the lanes on the highway are used for different things.
Your confusing roads designed to merge and temporary closures. They are drastically different situations
Okay but Americans are about fairness: why should I who've been stuck here for 6 minutes be stuck for as many additional car lengths as zoom by me to the end of the lane.
One of the reasons you are stuck in traffic for 6 minutes is because people don't properly use the zipper method. Cars have to merge eventually, so it's either take turns smoothly or close gaps until cars have to make a full stop.....which causes a domino for miles back that exacerbates traffic.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:17:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Because until they merge they aren't on your road. That's like saying why should someone on the service road be passing me. Sometimes the highway is faster than the entrance lane, sometimes it is slower. Once they merge they are in the same boat as you.
But that person probably didn't delay your trip at all. So what's the harm?
If anything the problem is with the person that merged early. They created gaps in the right lane that are being filled by later people zooming up. That person is the one that disrupted smooth traffic flow.
[deleted] · 6 points · Posted at 15:57:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
They weren't behind you. Until they merge, they're not on the same road at all, so not ahead or behind. The entrance ramp is basically a separate service road that joins the highway at the merge point. Sometimes highway traffic moves faster, sometimes entering traffic moves faster, and that determines who gets to the merge point sooner.
No one promised that driving is fair. You have just as much right (and capability, I'm assuming) to move over to that lane and be the person you despise.
Which wouldn't be an issue if people didn't merge so early. Most merge lanes around here don't have enough room to continue driving on the shoulder so, theoretically, this should be simple.
That's exactly the point. All lanes should be as full as possible up to the point of the obstruction. Merging should not occur until very close proximity to the obstruction. This is faster, it has been proven time and again. Merging early and not using as much of all lanes as possible merely lengthens the choke point, making it worse.
It's the idiots who merge early who are the problem. If everyone stuffs over into one lane as soon as possible the one lane will be backed up twice as bad and the lane that is ending will be wide open. Those people zooming by the traffic and merging in further ahead are doing things right.
I have literally seen traffic backed up for kms because the road crews forgot to take down the merge signs, and everyone was trying to merge early. So I stayed in the right lane and sailed by all these dumb suckers in stop and go traffic in the left lane, and the lane wasn't even closed
Najda · 9 points · Posted at 15:33:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Except early merging often means getting into the lane without any disruptions, but merging at the end of the line means creating a gap in near bumper to bumper traffic as it tends to be when people slow down so much. If people actually followed the 2 car gap rule/2 second rule then merging at the end of the line would be a valid tactic, but as is it almost always requires someone letting you in.
If people actually followed the 2 car gap rule/2 second rule
If you want to be part of the solution, simply do this and you'll make traffic better for everyone. Merging becomes a nonissue for both lanes, traffic continues smoothly, and nobody gets mad.
This is what 90% of people don't seem to understand.
I am so fucking tired of people like you spreading this bullshit. Early merging prevents the starts and stops associated with human error and perception to action delay.
I want you to understand that your action that you took when you sailed by those suckers was deliberately causing the starting and stopping that you were seeing. You and literally people like you are the ones that cause that behavior.
Yeah I've already looked over all of the stats and several studies and it still bullshit.
There is no circumstance when even a slow-moving double column with a long tail back will be outpaced by the Stop & start merge patterns of a zipper merge, assuming the same number of vehicles in both the throughput to the early mergers will always be faster because there is no hesitation when passing the pinch Point why doesn't anyone fucking get that?
There is a reason why all of these circumstances are shown through simulation instead of real-world traffic footage, because all of the real world traffic footage shows that zipper merges at the choke are absolutely bulshit and are only to be used as an evil necessity with emergency lane closures.
This is why on ramps and merge roads have long run up specifically so that you don't merge at the pinch point.
And I don't see on-ramp traffic stopping and starting like zipper merge traffic which it should because hypothetically they're the exact same function according to your misinformation.
And I don't see on-ramp traffic stopping and starting like zipper merge traffic which it should because hypothetically they're the exact same function
That's because zipper merge doesn't result in stop and start like you seem to think. In fact it avoids it. What you see on onramps IS zipper merging. It's exactly what zipper merging is supposed to be. There is 1 merge point on an onramp. You don't see people (reasonable people) jumping across the white lines to merge onto the freeway before the merge point, nor do you see them riding the shoulder after it. That's a zipper merge. There is, and only should be, one merge point. This results in the least stop & start behavior.
The behavior you're arguing for results in infinite merge points, which results in infinite stop & start points where traffic can be obstructed and have to re-adjust. Not to mention it completely wastes 1 lane, thus doubling the length of the backup and creating an opening for people to zoom by the entire backup and merge at the last second. It creates more problems than it solves.
That's because zipper merge doesn't result in stop and start like you seem to think.
Except that it doesn't, in every circumstance that I have encountered it.
I drive 2 to 2.5 hours round trip on my daily commute, and I've been doing this for more than two decades.
Plenty of roadwork, plenty of closures.
In every circumstance that the zipper merge is used on a temporary lane closure, the merge and closing lanes must start and stop because there is not enough throughput for the cars to maintain a rolling speed that allows brake-tap free merging.
What you see on onramps IS zipper merging
Yes, on a road specifically designed for it, with the appropriate acceleration/deceleration lane length to allow drivers to match speed with the highway traffic.
That does not happen EVER in a temporary lane closure resulting in a zipper merge.
Ever.
There is, and only should be, one merge point. This results in the least stop & start behavior.
In-fucking-correct. Not even close.
Early merging creates an infinite amount of merge points yes, and here's the important part so I'm gonna capslock and bold it: THAT CAN ALL MERGE SIMULTANEOUSLY.
And just like the solution to Zeno's 'Achilles and the Tortoise' paradox, the infinite merge points (infinite divisions of distance for the arrow) are resolved by the fact that those points are also crossed with infinite simultaneity (more obvious to the Achilles paradox if there are only two lanes merging into one, though it still applies for any number of lanes).
Parallel merging, if you would.
Merging at the pinch point in zipper merging creates serial merging, where each event is further delayed by human reaction times and vehicle inertia from zero acceleration.
Instead of one hypothetical simultaneous early merge, you get dozens of stop, left, stop, right, stop, left, stop, right as each column slowly feeds cars through the pinch point.
Even in the absence of human psychological issues aside (the main contributor to poor driving and the inability to recognize your own poor driving habits), liquid flow models clearly show that even with a larger pipe (more throughput pinchpoint), turbulent flow greatly reduces the volume of liquids that can pass through the pinch.
Laminar flow (non turbulent flow) in even a significantly smaller pipe will allow more throughput than a pipe even 1/5 or 1/4 larger.
You're not staying in your lane you cut to the right and sped past them and now when you got to merge back into the lane the guy behind you has to stop.
Which would not have happened if you had merged early and stayed there, the entire column pulls out just like a red light turn green instead of stopping and starting for every time someone merges in.
You misunderstood. I was in the right lane. There were signs indicating the right lane ended. Everyone else merged to the left as soon as possible, causing the left lane to essentially grind to a halt. I stayed in the right lane until I could see where the lane closed, except it never closed so I sailed past a traffic jam created by people merging early.
And if you bothered to look at through your rearview mirror when you sail pass you would see at the person behind you I just tapped their brakes causing the entire line to come to a halt again.
The major problem with people like you is that you only determine the effectiveness of a traffic pattern by your own personal performance IE you managed to sail past it what's you're not seeing is that that very Act is what causes those style of jams to begin with.
Merging early might cause slowdowns back in the tailback, poorly enacted zipper merge always cause stops in the start at the choke point.
Also your scenario only happens if there already is a stop at the choke point because designed Lane changes such as turn lanes and onramps do not cause stop-and-start merging, in fact they're designed not to.
In every circumstance where actual overhead footage of temporary zipper merges are featured, it is obvious that the delays are caused by the type of people that rushdown the now-empty right lane and jam themselves into already moving traffic, usually By ignoring the zipper pattern and cutting a head one spot.
The really interesting thing is that they've only saved themselves maybe two to five seconds of time on their commute by jumping in that front space but the domino effect of rate tapping going down the merge lane will cause the person in back to lose maybe three or four minutes.
So you saved yourself five seconds and cost everybody else in that column by an average two-minute delay.
Congratulations you are that guy that everyone tells people not to be like.
Yup. Also if the closed lane people wait until the last minute to merge in America, they are seen as trying to worm their way in. People will deliberately stay on the bumper of the car in front to keep them from getting in.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 20:08:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I've lived in four different cities in the US and most drivers tend to be perfectly respectful and are mindful of those around them. Like if I put on my blinker, they'll make space and let me over more often than speeding up to get in front. Zipper merging also usually goes smoothly (except the few who merge early). It's not like if I'm in the lane that's ending it's a fight to get over.
Of course none of those cities are NY or LA, which have the reputation of being the worst.
I think that the concept 'Driving/Traffic is a Team Sport!' should be hammered into every person learning to drive. But then, in a decade the cars will auto-drive anyway, so it's kinda late.
In Colorado, I've recently seen signs during construction that say "use both lanes until merge point"
I don't know if I've noticed a significant improvement yet, but I hope people catch on.
After reading the wikipedia article and the linked MN DOT report I was about to to reply and add to it, but then I realized that what you said is factually correct, but commonly misunderstood.
What most people think is that zipper merge will help them go faster through a traffic choke point, which is incorrect. The main benefits outlined are
Shorter traffic backup, which helps prevents traffic from blocking intersections and exits further back
Reduces and equalizes the speed of traffic in both lanes, which means 1) people don't need to merge back and forth for the faster lane 2) safer because you don't have people suddenly switching from the slow lane to the fast lane causing delays or accidents
Less road rage from rude drivers 'skipping the line of cars'
This is actually incorrect for temporary lane closures. The studies that you are referring to about the zipper merge have all been done on roads that were designed beforehand too narrow not multi-lane roads narrowed down unexpectedly and temporarily.
Momentum lost from aggregate starting and stopping causes delays greater than one third extra traffic distributed across through lanes and extending the tailback.
It's kind of funny that this misunderstanding keeps getting presents as fact when it has long been debunked with both psychology and physics.
Werrf · 30 points · Posted at 15:32:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Source, please? Because the sources I'm seeing generally say that merging sooner is fine when traffic is light, but when traffic is heavy it's best to zipper merge.
Don't worry about being "Minnesota nice." When traffic is heavy and slow, it is much safer for motorists to remain in their current lane until the point where traffic can orderly take turns merging.
geak78 · 1 points · Posted at 20:09:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think that's the problem. There are other extenuating circumstances. When traffic is bumper to bumper it doesn't really matter. When it's quite light it doesn't really matter. The other times everyone should just be concerned with making the least amount of people use their brakes.
Around here the only reason traffic gets heavy is because assholes merge too late forcing the non-merging lane people to have to slam the brakes as the asshole trying to cut the line squeezes in. If you follow the techniques on this video you can leave space so people don't think they need to race to the end. Fucking dummies have to be tricked into driving correctly by making them think there is plenty of space to merge.
Werrf · 4 points · Posted at 18:22:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The non-merging lane people can see the people in the lane next to them; they're responsible for leaving space for people who have no choice but to merge. If you're slamming on the brakes to let the 'arsehole' trying to 'cut the line' squeeze in, you're the one who's doing it wrong; you're the arsehole in this picture.
If you're slamming on the brakes to let the 'arsehole' trying to 'cut the line' squeeze in, you're the one who's doing it wrong; you're the arsehole in this picture.
I feel like this is written by someone with minimal driving experience.
Werrf · 0 points · Posted at 18:35:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Twenty one years, motorbike and car, all over the UK and US.
You know, there are traffic laws and insurance fault determination rules, and in both cases you're the arsehole if you think you have some predetermined right to cut whenever you please.
Go look them up; the person merging does NOT have the right of way.
In the event of an accident, you are 100% at fault if you are trying to merge into another lane.
Werrf · 3 points · Posted at 19:59:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Allow me to be clear:
If you deliberately block a person who is unable to continue in their lane, you are obstructing traffic. This is illegal. I'm not talking about the other person having right of way to merge any old way they please. Yes, of course the person who is merging needs to match the speed of the lane they're merging into; but, by the same token, the person in the lane to be entered should be leaving at least a car-length gap between them and the next vehicle ANYWAY, should they not?
Now you're literally making up interpretations of traffic rules.
The length gap between 2 cars completely depend on the speed at which the cars are travelling. A car length gap would NOT be even nearly sufficient if you were travelling at freeway speeds, but would not be necessary if everyone is stuck in a stop-and-go, 5 mph traffic jam situation. Also the gap is for SAFE STOPPING DISTANCE, when you CUT into that gap, you've just completely killed the safe stopping distance for both the car behind you and yourself, thereby creating a even more dangerous situation.
Also, the person merging should not be "matching the speed of the lane they're merging into", you should actually be moving slightly faster than the lane you're merging into. But once again, merging should only be done WHEN IT IS SAFE TO DO SO. You do NOT have right of way, you MUST wait until it is clear to do so.
So many drivers on the road have zero idea what right of way means. When you don't have right of way, you wait. If you don't and something happens, you are 100% at fault. When you don't have right of way, the other drivers are not "obstructing traffic" just because they don't yield to you.
Werrf · 2 points · Posted at 20:12:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ah, so you don't think merging should ever be allowed? Because that's literally what you're saying.
Please note, I did not say that other drives have to yield to you.
Who said that? Please quote where I "literally" said that. (You should literally look up the definition of literally)
You should merge when it is SAFE TO DO SO. There are plenty of situations where it is safe to merge, such as when traffic is a lot more sparse, or where there's a lot of gap between 2 cars. Also, believe it or not, people are much more inclined to allow you to merge when you're not perceived as someone trying to cut a huge line of cars.
Then why would traffic crews start using signs that specifically instruct drivers to merge at the merge point, not before? I think there's more research going on in that case than just "I looked it up on the Internet."
That's the law in your state. In other states they put out signs that implore drivers to go all the way to the merge point (at least during construction). They usually say something like "Use all lanes until merge point."
I was just typing up a comment about Oklahoma. Maybe it's more efficient to zipper, but just follow the signs and get over.
[deleted] · 5 points · Posted at 19:04:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I too am confused how this keeps being repeated as fact. In my traffic analysis class it was made clear to use that it's dangerous to have the two lanes moving at vastly different speeds, and that the zipper approach only works when the road is designed for it. Otherwise waiting till last minute greatly increases risk of accident and leads to traffic slowly in stop and go situations to let those people mergr
I have a feeling this lie keeps being perpetrated to give a pass to the poor driving behaviors of advantage seeking drivers.
like the asshole that hard accelerates up a turn lane to jump in front of a column of traffic just as the light turns green.
The thing is, a lot of people who make our laws are exactly that type of Beamer asshole that constantly puts other traffic at risk for their own position advantage (yes I know not all of these kinds of people drive BMWs, though it sure seems like a lot of them do).
So they actively pass ordinances and laws to support their poor driving behavior, and then it gets parroted by the traffic enforcement departments in crappily 90's era style PSA vids.
my traffic analysis class
You have no idea how crazy interesting that sounds to me, do you have any links to more scholarly articles that are actually academically valid instead of the stack of entertainment blog posts that others have provided so far?
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 15:18:32 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I do not have any links to papers off the top of my head(and I havnt seen any actual papers posted from anyone as you also said). I took this class 15 years ago for engineering. I'm a math student now and we've been studying traffic in a different manner using graph theory and neural networks to map most efficient routes.
It's like a living organism with its own biology and recognizable processes. And it is made from the aggregate choices of everyone on the road.
An incredibly complex system that is easily understandable in conceptual rules, yet has such a wide variation from modeled flow studies that they are really only accurate in the large scope.
It is the product of standards established before the internal combustion engine was even a dream, and nearly every human in the developed world participates in it in one way or another.
In the abstract, I love thinking on it.
In the concrete, I fucking hate having to use it.
TBH Neural Networks are really the only effective way to model it as again it is made by aggregate choices, though we still can't accurately model driver behavior on an individual level (or maybe we can? Its been a while since I messed with neural networks, and that was mainly in artificial life simulations of roaches).
I'm very grateful that you are both so passionate on this subject and were willing to support my point.
Every other post in this thread boils down to 'Nuh uh, you're the stupidest'.
We trafficheads (is that what we're called?) should stick together.
dasiffy · 2 points · Posted at 18:23:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's also counter intuitive, based on highway on ramp merging procedures.
Waiting till the end makes it do or die.
You used some fancy terminology, but I think you could explain to me in better terms-why would a two lane that merges into a one lane road have faster traffic than just the one lane road with twice the cars? If they're all going same speed and same distance from each other, shouldn't the average wait time be the same?
This is a problem I can't wrap my head around.
The only phrases that aren't common parlance are 'zipper merge' and 'tailback', and they are both descriptive enough that further explication shouldn't be necessary...
The main thrust of this video is that stopping for whatever reason in traffic, even briefly causes a much more significant backup than most people ever realize.
The most efficient road possible demonstrates laminar flow (smooth flowing like liquid in a pipe that has no turbulence), where every car travels at a close speed to the vehicle in front of them, with enough gaps that other cars can merge without causing the car behind them to tap their brakes.
As the video above shows, even a brief brake tapping in a backed up road can cause a 'phantom traffic jam' that can sometimes last hours.
In a restricted lane situation, just like restricting a hose, laminar flow is thrown out the window as close driving distances and frequent lane changes causes everyone to stop and start.
Not just in the merge lane, as you will have advantage seekers in the middle lane also unneededly merge left to avoid the clusterfuck in their lane ahead, just to cause a clusterfuck in the new lane they move into by causing the person behind them to brake tap.
So, even in an ideal 3 to 2 lane zipper merge, the obstructed lane will be at a stop, as well as the lane the obstructed lane merges into, as each car passes the right to start back and forth.
This means for every car that merges there is a delay in both lanes, as the car pulls out, and as the car causes the middle lane driver behind them to brake.
Back and forth, each car in that merge lane will take much, much longer (5 to 6 times longer considering human perception speed, a quick start, and the cooperation of the cars around. If the driver is slower on reaction time, or if some cars are advantage seeking, it may take 7 to 8 times the amount of seconds to pass the choke point.
So in a very good zipper merge, it still takes 4-5 times the amount of time for one car to pass the pinch as it does with laminar flow.
Lets say at normal travel speed, slightly congested traffic, it takes 2 seconds for a car to pass the pinch point (that's even being conservative, it shouldn't take more than a second but I am doing this to prove a point)
Lets say there are 30 cars in a 3 lane road that temporarily narrows down to two.
With laminar flow, assuming the traffic is already at driving speed, having merged all 30 cars into two lanes (15 cars per lane).
That means it'll be 30 seconds from the first car passing the pinch to the last car passing, provided that no one brake taps or advantage merges, which would be unnecessary as everyone is already traveling at cruising speed.
Now what happens when you spread those same 30 cars to 3 lanes with a zipper merge?
Hypothetically the non-merge far lane should be able to maintain its laminar flow but this is never, ever the case in the real world due to the advantage mergers mentioned above, so we have to apply the start-stop math to all lanes, though the least to the 3rd.
Now lets say it takes 5 seconds for each car to pass the pinch (which is quite generous as real life experience means passing a pinch point is usually at idle speed), that means it'll take a minimum of 50 seconds for all the cars to pass the pinch.
The only problem with that is most street lights don't have that long of a phase, and in the second, turbulent flow zipper merge, you may actually have cars in the back that are 'cut off' in the middle of the intersection by a light change.
Negating the benefit of 'shortening the tailback' that every proponent of zipper merging erroneously claims as the best traffic benefit.
The absolutely best benefit to traffic flow is an absolute absence of stops and brake taps.
Early merging provides this, zipper merge does the exact opposite, creating artificial start/stop patterns and encouraging advantage merging.
Which is why zipper merging is absolute bullshit and proves that everyone who supports it is completely shit at math and has had insufficient real world driving experience.
Sure, the zipper merge works great on paper and simulation, because none of these take into account human stupidity, namely advantage mergers in this scenario.
And those assholes are literally the most dangerous people on the road, even moreso than drunk or texting drivers.
Thanks for the detailed explanation! Just to make sure, was I mostly right in believing that merging later isn't in any way more efficient for the flow of cars than merging earlier-essentially that if the same road was always a 2-way cars would go the same speed or even faster than if it was a 3->2 merge?
Just to make sure, was I mostly right in believing that merging later isn't in any way more efficient for the flow of cars than merging earlier-essentially that if the same road was always a 2-way cars would go the same speed or even faster than if it was a 3->2 merge?
Early merge is faster in nearly every circumstance.
The only situations where this is not the case is when both lanes have long trailers matching speeds, and when more than 2 lanes merge into a single lane.
In nearly every standard temporary zipper merge, early merging is significantly faster in vehicle throughput.
It seems this is mostly an American problem, from what I've read people get angry when you drive down the empty road as it looks like you're trying to push in? Never had the issue in the UK when driving, we aren't taught it in our driving tests but it's something everyone automatically picks up
Werrf · 53 points · Posted at 15:23:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yup, it's a largely American thing. There's a tendency in the US to treat driving like a competitive sport.
Oh yeah, that's real annoying. Although no sympathy for people who speed up while getting passed. I know it's not always caused by anger, it might remind you that you're going slower than you meant to. But if I caught up to you, I'm going faster so at least let me pass first!
Do people even learn how to drive before taking their driving tests? You're SUPPOSED to speed up before changing into another lane, then go back to regular driving speed once you've successfully completed the lane change.
Not doing so is dangerous; slowing down before a lane change is doubly so.
It's because of you enter the passing lane and are not traveling at the speed of the traffic in that lane, you are holding up everyone else. People who occupy the left lane when they are going 71 in a 70 hold up all of the other people who were following normal traffic patterns.
The problem with people driving down the empty road is that they are driving much, much faster than the people in the continuing lane, so when it gets to the merge point that fast-driving person just bombs in and almost causes a car accident, which leads to more brake lights and a further slowdown in the continuing lane.
If both lanes were slowed down and taking turns, it would be very different because people could kinda just time it to roll through the merge without stopping, but one fast-lane causing complete stops by irregularly forcing itself into a slow lane just makes everything worse.
[deleted] · 19 points · Posted at 16:42:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Came here to say this, too. This comes up in every thread like this, but it's not that we don't know what zipper merging is. It's that it only works when everyone does it, and that never fucking happens.
[deleted] · 7 points · Posted at 17:51:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No that's bullshit. Not zipper merging because other idiots are being idiots is pointless. Refusing to zipper merge inflates traffic and reduces road carrying capacity, full stop.
[deleted] · -4 points · Posted at 17:53:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah especially because since you are being a dick trying to cut in line then everyone will treat you like a dick but acting like one themselves and not giving you any space to merge.
Jucoy · 3 points · Posted at 20:40:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No. There's doing it right and there's doing it wrong. If using the lane as intended results in me getting to my destination faster, I'm going to use the lane as intended, rather than sit in a lone bitching about other people using the lane the way It's supposed to be used.
jesus67 · 1 points · Posted at 19:55:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I prefer it to everybody waiting in one giant polite line.
It's still an issue with the older generations in the UK. They see it as you jumping the queue. I've experienced OAP's getting very irate with me for using the road as intended in the past and because I'm young, I'm wrong.
I remember a Rob Brydon bit about hating "late Mergers" and his younger panel guests picked him apart about it being like a Zipper.
Where do you drive? Everywhere I drive in London and Kent is full arseholes desperately protecting their precious six foot of tarmac and creating traffic problems.
The problem is it's an empty lane, because everyone else thinks the same way. They don't want to be the asshole that passes everyone, so they get out of the closed lane and make it even more empty.
Ugh, there is a perfect spot for this zipper merge on a very busy loop on 2 interstate highways here, and they literally widened the road to make an extra long merging lane for traffic coming on to the highway, and yet everyday I see people coming off the ramp and getting directly into traffic, causing huge delays and traffic, every single day!
It really grind my gears to see this beautiful merge lane sit empty and then see all the cars battling for a tiny little 12 foot merge space.
I am from Minnesota and I thought we were bad at the zipper merge. Then i went on a road trip and somewhere in the middle of Kentucky there was construction with the right lane closed. There was about 2 miles of unused lane that people could have used, but didn't.
twerps · 3 points · Posted at 17:39:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Zipper vs. early merging is a fair debate.
What super does not work though is when people floor it through the closing lane and then brake to a stop at the end when trying to pass everybody.
I think a of discussions fail to mention that problem.
Well I'm happy to go 1-1-1-1-1-1-1. So I let one guy merge and BAM! I'm getting honked at and sworn at but the next 5 cars because I try to go in front of them!
Provide a source, then. If you google "Is zipper merging correct", you'll find dozens of articles stating that zipper merging is the correct way to drive. Those are all of my sources.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 19:53:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Those are not primary sources. Post a primary source or shh
Bullshit, asshole. There's more than half a dozen articles right fucking there saying it's better. Meanwhile all your headass self has said is "I studied this, so I'm right". Get fucking lost.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 20:30:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
An article is not a fucking research paper or study. Period. That's why we don't link cnn articles when discussing global warming, we link the actual research papers.
That's why we don't link cnn articles when discussing global warming, we link the actual research papers.
I'm discussing fucking traffic, not global warming. I'm not going to waste time with some fucking clown who's head is so far up his own ass that he refuses to believe that zipper merging is the correct way to drive and is safer, even though it is.
Provide a real source or just stfu
Holy god the irony is fucking hilarious.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 20:41:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I've been where you are with this guy. There's no hope.
Then cite one article. Just one. Doesn't even have to be a research paper or thesis. Literally an article that you could've pulled from the back of a cereal box. Show me any single written piece of information that says zipper merging is bad and dangerous. Go on, I'll wait.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:48:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Wow you didn't even fucking read the article. You could at least make it a little challenging for me to not prove you're entirely full of shit. That article, not once, says zipper merging is bad because it's dangerous. It says, essentially, that humans are too fucking stupid and selfish to realize it does in fact work, so now everybody that tries to merge is automatically an asshole.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 21:16:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You struggle pretty hard with reading comprehension
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 16:01:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Road crew put.. Right Lane closed 2 miles. Everyone get on the left as soon as they see the sign.. now we have 1+mile long traffic with other lane completely empty!
While I completely agree with you, there's a bit of game theory involved, here. If you attempt to buck the trend and execute a zipper merge, you risk being treated like an asshole and boxed out by people who were passed up by other later mergers, who may or may not have been enlightened zipper mergers; they could have been actual assholes.
I would say this only applies in bumper to bumper rush hour traffic.
If you wait until the end of the merge lane and there isn't an opening at that very moment then you have to slow down/stop until you can get in. Then you either have to wait until there's no cars or pull out in front of someone causing them and others to have to slow down.
It works anytime the lanes are moving similar speeds, and also requires awareness from drivers in both laws when a merge will be necessary. This may be a bridge too far for many.
Drivers seem to have this idea that if everyone merged before the merge point, traffic wouldn't slow down and we'd all drive along happily.
This actually does work. I've seen it work. When I'm on the Interstate between cities and traffic is sparse...but even then, merging at the last possible point still doesn't really slow anyone down in that situation because there's usually no one to slow down. So merging early is a matter of convenience, not of keeping traffic flowing.
It's when traffic is heavy that people tend to have a problem with merging at the merge point, despite the fact that, due to the volume of traffic, it doesn't matter where you merge - early, late - there will still be a delay, because you're trying to take the traffic that normally fits in two or three lanes and removing one or more of those lanes. Like a funnel, if you fill it too fast, it will overflow.
Dolgare · 4 points · Posted at 18:39:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Drivers seem to have this idea that if everyone merged before the merge point, traffic wouldn't slow down and we'd all drive along happily.
I think it's less that traffic wouldn't slow down, as it reduces risk. If I wait to the last second to merge, there's a decent chance people will band together to block me from merging, requiring I slam on the brakes and greatly raising the possibility of a wreck.
I fully get why the zipper method can work, but I'm not going to put extra risk on my car and my life just to hope everyone around me also understands that. I'm going to get into the lane that isn't ending when I can so at least I'm there, even if it is going to extend my drive by a couple minutes.
Here is the thing no one in America can merge. Ever. People simply cant do it. Drive anywhere in California and 90% of the traffic you come across is caused by a merge.
Literally yesterday a woman screamed at me when i tried to do this
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:36:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Werrf · 1 points · Posted at 18:40:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The merge doesn't have to start at the terminus point, it should end at the terminus point. Exactly where you start will depend on how fast traffic is moving, but your goal should be to use the whole road until you are one lane-merge distance from the close point (make it a little further for some safety margin).
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:45:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Werrf · 2 points · Posted at 18:50:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The comment up a bit covers this pretty well. It might be a bit slower to zipper merge, but the effects of the closure stay localized to the closure. Not using the road carrying capacity fully translates to longer entry lines which could create traffic further away from the merge point (the next intersection, on ramp, exit, etc).
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:16:07 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's sounds very similar to what /u/Werrf was saying: essentially a zipper merge is better and you should execute it safely for the speed and conditions. You advocate a slightly larger safety margin but then still a safe merge at speed (which is a zipper merge wherever it occurs). Too much safety margin creates traffic away from the merge which is not desirable and too little creates dangerous differences in speeds between lanes.
The zipper merge zone should vary with overall speed from right at the very end (close point) in stop & go traffic to quite a bit back in faster traffic up to the point that the entire concept is moot because there isn't enough traffic to matter when the merge occurs.
tom808 · 3 points · Posted at 17:43:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This. This! This!
I have to drive down a section of road which merges after a busy junction everyday. People always merge in as soon as they can which causes an overflow and blocks the junction.
Meanwhile nobody let's me in because I move past the traffic to merge at the last point and they think I'm being a dick.
New Jersey driver here. That sounds like a great way to navigate a merging situation, but afaik we never learned it in driver's ed. So at least part of the problem is that new drivers aren't being taught that this exists.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:49:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I try to do this, but half the time it's downright dangerous as people WILL NOT let you merge for any reason.
Hey, another traffic human. Traffic is one of those things that is full of the "90% don't really understand." Things like: more Lanes often worsening traffic, or that left only passing generally improves throughput, or that it's the differences in velocity that compound to massive traffic backups not the overall velocity of the traffic flow.
Any source on the left only passing thing? With 2-3 lanes it makes intuitive sense, but as you get up to 4+ lanes it becomes impossible or at least inconvenient to have to move over several lanes to pass, each lane change having its own risk.
Fenral · 1 points · Posted at 20:00:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I accept that this is the technically correct way to merge.
I also accept that in reality, in the overwhelming majority of North America, this will not work.
Given the reality of the situation, you should not be zooming up to a point where you know, or ought to know, that there isn't going to be space to merge. You should be merging at the closest spot to the bottleneck where there is space to merge.
Werrf · 2 points · Posted at 20:02:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I accept that this is the technically correct way to merge. I also accept that in reality, in the overwhelming majority of North America, this will not work.
Um...that would be why it's a response to "What is something that 90% of people don't seem to understand?"
So then the backup length is shorter, but it takes just as long to fit everyone through the same bottleneck?
Werrf · 2 points · Posted at 20:20:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Most of the disruption is in the backup - by lengthening it, and having everyone decide for themselves when and how they're going to merge, you end up with much more disruption than you'd have if everyone followed the same rules, and waited for the merge point before changing lanes.
radome9 · 1 points · Posted at 21:00:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Wrong. The carrying capacity is determined by the choke point.
Werrf · 1 points · Posted at 21:13:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And early merging moves that choke point further back, artificially reducing the number of cars that can fit into a given stretch of road.
radome9 · 1 points · Posted at 21:18:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's not fitting that's the problem, it's passing. The number of cars that can pass through the chokepoint is not affected by how the cars are arranged before the chokepoint.
Werrf · 1 points · Posted at 21:23:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You're not listening - early merging moves the chokepoint. It moves the chokepoint further back, reducing the amount of road available.
radome9 · 1 points · Posted at 21:27:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Late merging gives you two lanes instead of one, but they move at half the speed. The number of cars that pass a given point per time unit is unaffected.
You're confusing the chokepoint and the merge point. They are different things.
Werrf · 1 points · Posted at 21:58:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The choke point is the point where you go from two lanes to one lane. Early merging means that point is earlier. it's pretty simple.
radome9 · 1 points · Posted at 22:00:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Simple, but wrong. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
Werrf · 1 points · Posted at 22:21:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you enjoy being wrong...I guess that's your choice.
Even with onramps on a jammed interstate highway. I used to drive I-287 in NJ. It often slowed to a crawl at "rush" hour. I used to get off at a busy exit - lots of people exiting, lots of people entering. Everyone was so fixated on not letting people in, that the right lane would come to a complete standstill as whole blocks of entering cars and semi-trucks had to force their way in. A simple zipper merge would have kept everyone moving and happy. (well, I don't know about happy.)
Dakar-A · 1 points · Posted at 00:34:32 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Shh! You don't want them to know the secret! The one weird tip to easily get you through merging-created traffic jams!
calembo · 1 points · Posted at 02:15:41 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Came here to say this, thanks for beating me to it!
This is often impossible in many parts of America. You see, we have these assholes, usually in a pickup truck, who thinks it's their job to police the road and make sure no one "skips the line"
Wherever they are in the closing lane, that's the beginning of the line. They will slow down or even stop so that no one can get ahead of them, essentially blocking the lane early so everyone else has no choice but to get over.
These morons are in every traffic jam and don't realize that they're making the problem worse.
If we're going by what's visible, an observer would be eternally at the edge of their own visible universe, but if all sensory input is included then they'd be the center of their own sensory universe.
On our physics I final my roommate couldn't figure out the problem so he just wrote "Technically, in my frame of reference the universe revolves around me."
This demonstration of known scale from the smallest understood unit (PlanK Length) to the largest conceivable unit (size of the Universe) always fascinates me. Also, interesting that "Human" scale is pretty much within two orders of magnitude of being halfway from "Big" to "Small".
I vacillate between thinking Big is really, really big and Small is unimaginably small. Don't know which one blows my mind more!
It does help that even a sheet of paper is going to be anything from tens of thousands to millions of atoms thick. But really it's only opaque because the atoms are absorbing visible light. If we were able to see other wavelengths, it might be transparent. Likewise, if we could only see in Ultraviolet, we wouldn't be able to see through Glass.
True. Pretty much only some physicists and perhaps mathematicians can really understand it. So perhaps 99.99999% can't wrap their heads around it all. And, as you say, that is only through math expressions.
BTW, I certainly do NOT include myself in the 0.00001% that can do it.
kapxis · 3 points · Posted at 17:30:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Could probably bring that up to 100%. But I get what you mean and agree.
Link to an interesting site illustrating scale of just our solar system. Does help bring things into some little perspective.
BTW, when you get to the Earth/Moon system, consider that the furthest any person has ever been from Earth is just to the far side of the moon. Then consider what an undertaking it is trying to get to Mars!
chaun2 · 2 points · Posted at 18:53:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is just natural self preservation at work. The very last thing any lifeform needs is a proper perspective.
“Space,” it says, “is big. Really big. You just won’t believe how vastly, hugely, mindbogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it’s a long way down the road to the chemist’s, but that’s just peanuts to space.”
When you're stuck in one itty bitty portion of it along with 7.5 billion other humans and trillions of various other lifeforms. Everywhere else seems like a reprieve.
I think that people who regurgitate Fermi's paradox as if it's some profound concept need to read your comment more carefully.
The solution to Fermi's paradox is that his assumptions are flawed w.r.t. technology and interstellar travel. Technology is still bound by the laws of physics.
lurpaq · 1 points · Posted at 18:35:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And even if you have a concept, it doesn't stop the existential crisis you have when you start thinking about multiple universes that can be inside every tiny particle that makes up the building blocks kg the atoms themselves...
I used to think of type effectiveness based on how that attack would work essentially on the particular foe.
I'd use fighting type moves on onix not because it's a rock type but because damn, that fucking punch would obliterate the shit out of that rock snake.
47k · 24 points · Posted at 18:55:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And trapping moves like Fire Spin and Wrap could wreck your shit one turn at a time and you couldn't do anything but pray to a deity of your choice for the nightmare to end so you could just die
Been playing through Fire Red on an emulator recently and I can't believe how OP psychic is. Caught an Abra early in the game and it's pretty rare that I won't 1 shot things with Psybeam even without it being super effective.
Depends on how you define stack. Currently a Pokemon can be afflicted with both, but neither affects the amount of damage the other does, with Leech Seed being a constant amount (1/16 in Gen 1, 1/8 now) and Toxic being an amount that increases every turn.
However, in Gen 1, Toxic would increase in amount twice per turn if Leech Seed was also hitting the affected Pokemon, causing damage to rack up faster. I was also confused when I read it the first time, but it's just a really weird effect that's kind of difficult to describe in a few words.
He means that Leech Seed incorrectly increased damage dealt every turn while Leech Seed and Toxic were both inflicted upon the target. You can be Leech Seed and any other status at the same time. Burn, Faint, Freeze, Paralyze, Poison, Sleep, and Toxic are the only statuses that you can only have one at a time, but you can have the others simultaneously (and simultaneously with one of these)
Gbjar2 · 1 points · Posted at 19:59:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
They still stack, but toxic's damage doubles every turn. In gen 1, leech seed damage would also double every turn if the target also had toxic on it.
source: bulbapedia
Yeah and if you have toxic, and switch out/back in, it reverts to normal poison in gens 1-2. After that, switching out and back in goes back to the first damage level and then it increments again.
Similarly Ghost wasn't super effective against Psychic in Gen 1
Goluxas · 17 points · Posted at 17:34:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I thought that it was in theory, but the only damaging Ghost type move in the game was Nightshade (EDIT: there was also Lick), which always does damage equal to your level. So weakness didn't matter.
On top of that, the only ghost types were Gastly/Haunter/Gengar, which are all half-Poison, and Poison is weak to Psychic so they got their shit wrecked.
Psychic's other weakness, Bug, only had two damaging moves: Twineedle and Pin Missile. The only bug that learned them was Beedrill, another half-Poison. (Jolteon could learn Pin Missile.)
TLDM · 4 points · Posted at 17:25:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ghost didn't affect Psychic at all in Gen 1.
TLDM · 4 points · Posted at 17:27:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
From Gen 6 onwards, Steel no longer resists a couple of types (I think it's Ghost and Dark? I've not played Gen 6+). I think that and Fairy are the only changes since Gen 3 (and in fact Gen 2) though.
You're not wrong. I don't remember exactly the changes, but going into Gen 6 the type chart had a few modifications in addition to the addition of fairy type.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 19:34:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
They made it so steel doesn't resist dark and ghost but that's been the only change
There are 77 Bug Pokemon. 12 of those are also Poison. That's 15.6%, less 3 times the 1/18 type ratio or 5.6%, including Normal.
There are 37 Bug evolutionary families, 6 of which contain at least one Pokemon that is also Poison. That's 16.2%.
There are 5 types that are not used with Bug: Dark, Ice, Normal, Dragon, and Psychic. Eliminating these unused type combinations, Poison is only about twice as popular as the average type used with Bug, 1/13 being 7.7%. 18 Bug Pokemon, 23.4%, have no additional type, and 13, 16.7%, are also Flying, making Poison the third most common in combination with Bug.
Comparing evolutionary families, 11, 29.7%, have no additional type, and 10, 27.0%, also have Flying, which is a significant increase over the 16.2% which have Poison. It is less common to change into or from Poison type than a lack of type or Flying
I'm trying to remember who I use to defeat heracross on my ground type team, and I'm pretty sure its Hippowdown. BREAK YOURSELF AGAINST MY HIPPO! Speed? Attack? Neutral moves? Won't scratch my HUGE defenses and HP. What's that? Slack off is an egg move for reliable recovery. Just going to spend my time, cursing myself to increase my wall!
Yeah, but Dustox though? Also, your starting defense is abysmal to my starting attack, so a neutral earthquake is going to force you into a roost loop. Half my team is packing rock moves.
Forgot to mention the pokemon I switched in was Alolan Ninetales, it's now hailing and your Garchomp's abilities are useless. On the turn you switched out I used Aurora Veil and now I take half damage.
Bug Pokémon are awesome. They're also strong against dark because of the popularity of Japanese sentai heroes being bug-themed. Bug is heroes, Dark is villains.
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Look at them all down there furrowing their brows in a desperate attempt to comprehend the situation.
chaun2 · 3 points · Posted at 18:44:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I am not sure, but I think that is that American Optimism at work. Not sure that the rest of the world isn't painfully aware they are part of the 90%..... :(
There are upsides to American optimism, this just happens to be a downside.
kenriko · 1 points · Posted at 18:49:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's about what you're selling. If you think Y is better than X, but your customers think X is better, don't try to convince them all to buy Y instead. Sell them X. The customer is always right.
I have a personal gripe with people failing to understand that an amount of money that sounds like a lot to one person, is not a lot to an entire country.
Here in the UK, many people were told that if they voted to leave the EU £350 million a week would go to the NHS.
Now whether or not you think the NHS needs funding, or whether or not you think the UK should be in or out of the EU, this is a terrible proposition.
The UK economy is over 2 trillion dollars.
The average person saw £350m a week and said oh wow that's a lot of money.
In reality this is like someone who makes 60k a year and telling them they can have an extra $10.50 a week.
Sorry, good message but bad example. That's still $17 Billion annually. For that much annually, the UK could have its own NASA with slightly less expensive coffee mugs.
A better comparison than GDP is the Government's budget. In the US that about $4 Trillion. In Great Britain I'd assume it's somewhere between $400 Billion and $600 Billion.
I'm not here to argue whether Brexit was a good idea. Simply that with the example given, 350m/week is not an inconsequential amount, even to the operation of a country.
Never claimed you were. But just saying that 350m/week isn't actually 350m/week. As most of that money is never actually send. 350m/week is how much we are documented to pay before all the rebates and such are applied.
The UK has never paid 350m/week to the EU. Most of that 350m/week is spent in the UK by the UK government.
Ah so you did. Yea I just copied and pasted your 350b/week so I didn't have to keep typing it out. I shoulda noticed that.
But yea. UK doesn't lose even close to 350m/week to the EU. Most remains in the UK and ever actually gets paid to the EU. Something a lot of people don't seem to understand. Basically though technically the bus was true in the sense that on paper we give 350m/week. The reality is we simply don't and it's really misleading to say we do.
That being said it's only 4.25% of the 400 billion say for your lower bound.
The contribution from the EU as it stood was in excess of that - The CBI estimates that the net benefit of EU membership is worth 4-5% of GDP to the UK, or £62bn-£78bn per year.
Also the wider trade benefits far outweigh the principle choice of 350m /wk or the EU that the leave side were pushing.
jbaird · 2 points · Posted at 18:52:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is a good one, We intuitively know that a hundred dollars and the thousand dollars is two very different amounts of money but million and billion all kind of sound like 'a shitload of money' to our brains when they are very very different amounts.
Especially when it comes to government spending I wish they would always give a 'per person per year amount' tax amount or sure, a percentage of the whole so we know what we are arguing about. The government spending a million dollars on something is spare change, its nothing.. 'the government spent 10 million figuring out we should do X or Y' isn't that crazy, that's just 50 people doing their day to day jobs for a month and is money well spent.
Same thing with 'rich' people. Actors and star athletes have net worths in the Hundred million range.. That's a tenth of a billion dollars. There are about 2000 billionaires in the world and they mostly own businesses (some entertainment and sports related ones too!) It would take a thousand Lebron James to equal Bill Gates, those are very different amounts of money..
Software development. I see too many people complaining about lack of features and how easy they are to add.
Then when they get their features, the same people complain about lack of updates as if they devs aren't now dealing with a ton of branching logic in their code because of all the features they added.
suhas7 · 114 points · Posted at 17:00:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The sunk cost fallacy.
[deleted] · 10 points · Posted at 19:40:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Let's say you're at some super high class restaurant, where to-go boxes aren't a thing. You order a nice old plate of amazing food, which you pay X amount of money for. The problem is you're only hungry enough to finish half the food. That's half your money wasted! So you should force yourself to eat the rest, correct?
Nope. That's the sunk cost fallacy. A sunk cost is an amount of money you've already spent with no way of getting back, a cost that shouldn't factor into your economic decisions because you've already spent it. You've already spent the money on the food, with no way to get it back. No one's really going to want your scraps at the restaurant, and you can't take it for leftovers. Eating the rest of the food isn't going to "keep you from losing money." You can't get that money back. All it's going to do is make you eat too much, hurting only yourself.
Another, maybe better example than my convoluted one that TOTALLY WASNT INSPIRED BY ANY RECENT EVENTS is this one, provided by Lifehacker:
Let’s say you buy tickets to a concert. On the day of the event, you catch a cold. Even though you are sick, you decide to go to the concert because otherwise “you would have wasted your money”. Boom! You just fell for the sunk cost fallacy. Sure, you spent the money already. But you can’t get it back. If you aren’t going to have a good time at the concert, you only make your life worse by going.
My favorite is pro sports. They pay a multi-million dollar salary and wont bench crap players because they are paying so much for them. They already signed away the money- put in second string! I know that isn't always a solution, but this example made a lot of sense to me.
[deleted] · 14 points · Posted at 19:41:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
See this makes sense but OP's example doesn't. There is value in food for someone who doesn't have food, and there is value in experiencing something like a concert even if it isn't tangible. Maybe OP has to explain it to people so many times because he is using the wrong examples
I agree the OP's examples aren't good ones. But, I think the food example is better if you use his assumptions. He's assuming:.
Once your full, you don't enjoy eating another bite.
No one else can eat the food.
You can't take the food home.
Eating the food just makes you fat and feel bad.
Now, you could argue eating the food gives you calories so you can reduce your caloric intake later if you eat it now. But's a stretch. So, I think this is a decent example.
On the other hand, there's lots of reason to go to a concert sick (bragging rights, social obligations, etc...)
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:06:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's situational. For example, if I eat a huge lunch, I might not be in the mood for a big dinner too. So, I could get a cost savings on my next meal. However, if I eat a small dinner, or a huge dinner, it doesn't really impact how hungry I am in the morning. Super Fancy restaurants tend to be visited more a dinner, so you can assume the OP's correct if he limits it to dinner and not lunch / breakfast.
Beyond that, for most Americans at least, too many calories is a bigger problem than too few. Over eating at meal X to the point you're not hungry at meal Y often has to be done to at unhealthy level.
let's say I usually eat 600 calories for breakfast, 600 for lunch, and 800 for dinner. Eating 900 calories for breakfast usually doesn't mean I eat 300 calories at lunch. It usually means I eat a normal lunch and over eat for that day. Now, if I eat a huge 1500 calorie breakfast, I might skip lunch, but I'll probably be more hungry by dinner, and over eat for that day.
So, the negative impact of eating too many calories would cancel out and cost savings, at least for upper middle class westerns who would be able to afford an expensive meal in the first place.
The best way I've heard it explained is that when you make a decision, you should try and ignore any PAST decisions (i.e. money already spent) and focus on the best outcome RIGHT NOW.
I understand I can't get the money for the concert ticket back. But whether I go to the concert or not decides whether or not I get something for my money – after all, I might still enjoy the concert, even though I have a cold. If it's simply assumed that I won't benefit at all from still going to the concert or eating the rest of the fancy food, is it really a fallacy?
It's a little unclear, yeah. I think what the author means is that going to the concert while cold will only be damaging to your health and well-being. It's similar to my food analogy, as someone else pointed out, that you may enjoy the rest of the food, but it'll only hurt you in the long run.
For further reading by a man who can explain it better than I, this article explores in fallacy through the lens of Farmville.
Great example. Also, what if you could take the leftovers home? 1 month later you find them in your fridge and calculate those are “worth” $50 so you’d “better eat” that expensive spoiled food. You could have spent thousands on that meal and it would never make the spoiled leftovers worth anything.
Fucking Thanks. I had to go through an inordinate amount of comments along the lines of
"hurr Durr all these dirty peasants not knowing something they wouldn't come across in daily life. What a bunch if morons, but hey, why would we feel the need to explain this thing we fucking know isnt common knowledge? It's pointless because anyone not already aware is a dirty ignorant plebian who hasn't the intelligence nor the want to understand this sacred wisdom. Hey, Williams, shall you he attending the Oxford 10 year reunion?"
"Doubtlessly, Richard, my presence shall Grace the commons. Well done, by the way, putting the rabble in their place, by the way. One can only fathom the disastrous sequela of our unending financial omniscience falling into the hands of those below us. Say old sport, will you have the butler, Claudius, pass another champagne flute, I seem to have unwittingly cast mine mine seawords, and off the deck of this fair yacht"
"Indeeeeeewbitably, my fair friend"
All jokes aside, in a thread about things most people don't know understand, please offer at least a basic explanation.
P.S. If any of you are Oxford graduates with private yachts, I'm totally looking for a job as a champagne flute dispenser, hmu.
My father in law has put thousands, possibly in the tens of thousands, replacing damn near everything on his vehicle. He feels like that is the way to go because he already has the car and hasn't bothered to do the math on how much he has thrown away rather than getting a new car.
He feels that because he already spent a shitload on his car that all of that money would be wasted if he got a new car. In reality that money is gone either way, going forward his costs would be less if he bought a new car. Because he has spent so much on the car he feels that he has to continue otherwise he wasted his money.
That about right?
I don't understand why you left that comment, mind explaining it? You didn't explain it, the fallacy, so what gives you the right to question my understanding?
Edit: God damn it, I just got your point. That's actually pretty good.
The best examples I've heard involve relationships.
Some people stay with an SO that they are no longer into for way longer than they should, because "I've already put 5 years of my life into this relationship." That's a sunk cost fallacy. They should break up with the person now instead of staying in a miserable relationship for however many more years.
You can't automatically asume that. There might be ways to fix things in a relationship. There might be good reasons to stay in a suboptimal relationship for a period of time because the situation after breaking up might realistically be even less optimal for them.
Yours is not a bad example, it's just not the best, I think, because there are too many factors going into a relationship
He was pointing out that I keep telling the same people the same thing over and over. Kind of playing on the fallacy, not exactly correctly but close enough to get. It isn't really a sunken cost to try to help the people around me save money/time regardless of how many times I have to repeat myself.
Those manufacturing jobs ain't ever coming back. It's simply more cost-effective to contract your production overseas or to Mexico. Plus automation. You can't stop the robots.
I'd say the thing 90% of Americans don't get is that "more jobs" is not the real goal. We could have 100% employment instantly and people would be poorer and less happy.
People are happy when they are financially independent due to their own efforts. Wages grow when people work hard to learn valuable skills, which is largely only worth doing to avoid the possibility of unemployment or having to work a low wage job. If jobs or income was guaranteed, fewer people would learn those skills, start businesses, and work hard - because the reward for doing so would be lower.
We're still living in a consumerist/materialistic society. If everyone was guaranteed enough income to have food, shelter, and transportation, most would still be motivated to have better. Better food, nicer house, nicer car, money to travel, etc. to show that they're still better than everyone else.
Can you cite any scientific studies on this? I know I wouldn't be motivated unless the living conditions were really substandard compared to those around me, if I'm being brutally honest with myself
There was a small area of Manitoba that tried it out and didn't see change in employment. Whether that would play out similarly in a larger, more diverse population is unknown.
But from a logic standpoint, why would brands like Lamborghini, Ferrari, and Bugatti exist when a Toyota will do? Why do people buy million dollar homes with more bedrooms than people living there?
if a basic livable income was guranteed people would still seek out skills to have higher paying jobs.
Montem_ · 33 points · Posted at 17:35:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And maybe some wouldn't. And that's okay. Not everyone needs to fight to be the best. Some people are content with waking up and not doing much. Consuming media like Television, Radio, and Music, and purchasing things still makes the economy function.
If someone doesn't feel like they can contribute to society in an active way why should we force them to?
[deleted] · -2 points · Posted at 18:25:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In exchange for contributing to society you get more money than someone who isn't contributing to society. The people who don't contribute get the basic necessities and limited entertainment but wouldn't have as many luxuries as someone who does contribute.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 19:17:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The government doesn't decide who gets what. The basic income is so that people don't have to work to live. But that doesn't mean the people who work will by paying for the people who don't work to have nice things. If you want more than the basic quality of life provided by the government or you don't wanna sit around all day doing nothing then you get a job or start a business.
In today's society there are still a lot of jobs that need to be done by people in order for everything to work. As automation continues to get better and cheaper that number of necessary jobs will drastically decrease. Either the number of people will also drastically decrease or society will implement a system to provide for them.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 20:25:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The money will come from businesses in the form of taxes. The government will give money to the people in the form of basic income and the people will give that money to businesses in exchange for products and services. Of course this is all dependent on there being enough resources to provide the necessities to everyone but if there aren't then you either need to increase supply or decrease demand.
I think you're also overestimating how many people will be happy with just the bare necessities. In general people want to do things that stimulate them physically and mentally. We are where we are as a species because we wanted more than just survival.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 21:33:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So how do you plan on keeping businesses here when they eventually leave to another country that has lower taxes and thus overhead? Cant give them subsidies cause the other businesses are gone. Cant charge them more in taxes as it increases the driving factor in leaving and thus eventually to a failed economy.
You're still thinking in terms of today's economy. If we start taxing businesses without changing anything else they'll find a way to do business cheaper. We've seen that with labor outsourcing. The widespread use of automation will eliminate almost all of the overhead associated with employees. That plus the benefits of selling to millions of people will outweigh the drawbacks of extra taxes. Also, companies don't have to be located in the country to have their products taxed. Imports and exports are also taxed.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 23:09:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Import and export taxes are simply passed onto the consumer. Income taxes will send the companies elsewhere.
Everyone would get the same. But that would only cover basic necessities. If you want more money you would get a job and contribute.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:52:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I understand, but if people aren't contributing then why do they get benefits.
lvysaur · 2 points · Posted at 20:00:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The general idea is we have a moral obligation to ensure a basic standard of living, even to those who are unable to find a job. We've moved on from social Darwinism a while ago.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:06:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
People can feel they have a moral obligation and voluntarily give their money away, but making you're subjective opinion on what is moral and what is not a legal requirement is flat out the wrong way to go about it.
Essentially, half of human labor will potentially be replaced my machines, so something will have to be done so the population doesn't fall into extreme inequality/poverty which will end up costing more than implementing UBI. This is a pretty good article.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:09:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Eventually all human labor will, except for the people programming the robots and AI.
You could take the UBI, afford your basic needs, and then not actively contribute to society. You'd probably have to have a roommate to afford housing, cook most of your meals, limit yourself to a couple beers a week, rely on public transportation to get around anywhere, and in general be careful with your budgeting. Or you could take the UBI and go get a job to bring in another $20k/year or more after taxes, and then upgrade your lifestyle however you want. What do you think most people are going to do?
No, you're paying yourself so you can afford luxuries that a non-working person can't. In a UBI-based society, you'd have to work for anything more than the bare essentials.
[deleted] · -3 points · Posted at 18:59:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You'd be able to go on vacations and eat out at restaurants while the complacent people are eating government cheese in one-room apartments. If they're satisfied with that, so be it.
[deleted] · -2 points · Posted at 19:16:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No you are choosing to work for additional pay to yourself because you and everyone else already has a base pay livable wage.
E.g. if I had a livable wage I would continue to work so that I could make even more (though I would happily cut down to only high productive hours maybe like 30 or so). Especially since I invested so much into my education I would like to pay back society for everything I have been given.
[deleted] · -3 points · Posted at 18:59:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sounds pretty entitled. Nothing you have ever done was accomplished by you alone. You didn't pave roads. You didn't make your own mail system. You didn't write the text books You learned from. You didn't found the country. You ain't entitled to shit but what's outline in the land you were born in. Welcome to society where you will be held accountable and taxed to contributing to what has been handed to your entitled butt.
K....then leave? The rest of us will go ahead and reap the rewards of those that came before us and build on their dreams of leaving a better world for those that come after.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:24:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Point me to a hospitable location on Earth that is not claimed by a government and gladly. Until then, stop acting like you have the right to take the money I earned with my life and freedom.
Oh poor baby, you don't like that you live in modern times. What makes you exempt from contributing back again?
And I thank you for being like me and paying taxes to maintain a military and epa and judges and teachers and forest rangers and everything else this country needs like libraries and clean water.
Lol you point to me the logic behind you thinking you get to be exempt from contributing to society.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:44:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What makes them exempt from contributing? This entire argument started with me asking how they get to be exempt from contributing to the economy, and you still haven't answered my question.
Eventually automation will remove every conceivable work position within the next few centuries. AI will remove special programming jobs. Houses will be 3d printed roads self paved by robots maintained by robots ad etc.
No one will NEED to contribute eventually. It will be about want.
Humans need to get past the idea of everyone working for survival.
It will require a fundamental shift eventually to a resource based economy sustained by an automated work force.
Either only the people that own those automated systems will be hyper wealthy leaving everyone else to scratch dirt for nothing, or they will have to be willing to hand over the rewards that everyone else helped build.
We have already started approaching this. Doctors getting replaced by machines that have access to every medical case in history or that can monitor the body faster and with higher accuracy than any trained anesthesia doctor. Machines that can sew tissue at levels the human eye can barely perceive.
Ai that can trade stock faster and smarter than any human.
The positions top and bottom will be under siege than everyone between. Then what?
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:11:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No our economy will go to a service economy where people pay for human interaction essentially. Just the opposite of how people feel about customer service now.
Is everyone going to be paying for interaction? That's also short sighted.
Servicing what though? Everyone taking care of the elderly? Brewing coffee?
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:18:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm talking more like guided fishing trips, where the human interaction comes with the sharing of knowledge, and building memories and experiencing things with other people you care about.
But the people they are giving the tour to. What do they do? Is it service all the way down? A rotating schedule of people having time off from servicing other people to be serviced?
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:23:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes basically. It isn't going to be a 1:1 ratio of tour guides to attendees. So one tour guide can host multiple groups of attendees at a time.
Prostitution was the first career and will probably be the last.
Sure sounds limited. There's hundreds of millions of Americans and a huge limit on the number of service jobs. Seems way more practical to move to resource base.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:30:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Are we not already a resource based economy? The jobs that aren't high level math or service based will most likely be replaced by robots.
In the past there have been trade based, service based, even slave driven economy. Once automation kicks in, money won't mean much of anything since everything we need can be accessed by everyone.
Think the food machine of star trek printing out any food desired.
Even jobs that are high level math will be replaced eventually I think. Think quantum computers with AIs dedicated to solving new math and physics.
Once we have access to stellar objects like the sun's power (good by every job related to energy) and asteroid mining (goodbye metal values and fuel needs) what is left In the next few hundred years?
Entertainment? Not everyone can or will want too.
Service? Sure some but not even close to all.
No we're talking about the future of our country/world where there won't be enough jobs for everyone as automation takes over. Which is what will drive the need for ubi.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 19:10:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Why? I worked through college. Also didn't have my land or nation invaded by the military of a hostile nation. I invested in myself and have been given by my forefathers the opportunity to do so.
They aren't mutually exclusive. They could've been GIVEN an opportunity that they took and INVESTED into. IJS very little in reality happens solely (not involving anyone or anything else; only.) because of your own efforts.
[deleted] · -3 points · Posted at 19:08:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Fun thought experiment: what do you do that You think won't eventually be taken over by either ai or automation?
Stock broker? Robots will do it better faster and with lower risk.
Engineer? Eventually machine learning will outpace human capability to design experiments.
Programmer? Your job is even more at risk.
Build houses? Drive trucks? Kewl say good by to those as 3r printers are delivered by self driving vehicles to build a house virtually without supervision.
Plumbing? Sure that will stick around for a while. Not everyone can be a plumber.
Medical? Lol how long you think before machines will do literally everything better than a human can? Access every medical case in history to solve medical mystery while robots perform surgery humans couldn't hope to be steady enough for?
Jobs will die. Give it 50 or 200 years. What work will there be left to do? What then? Only the owners of those machines and codes get to live?
Lol. Silliness. People still thinking in terms of their next 20 years. That's super for you mate. Others will concern ourselves with children grand children and great and on and on children who we hope to leave better off than we were.
Apparently all the type of jobs we currently have are everything that can exist ever and nothing new can be created.
I don't remember we can play video games for a living 20 years ago.
I don't remember we can manage social media for a living.
I don't remember we can develop mobile app for a living.
I don't remember we can design digital art for a living.
I don't remember alot of things. Maybe because it never exist, until recently.
Lol. Silliness. People still thinking in terms of their next 20 years. That's super for you mate.
It's really funny how one of the top comment with 6k upvotes is "Insulting someone's choice/intelligence is not going to change their mind." and now I see this.
Oh we don't all ascribe to the same thought processes oh no! Stupid humans varying thoughts from each other!
You think most got those jobs will be around long? Is everyone going to be a video game pro or social media manager? Sorry if I think we are at the peak of labor and that the mentality of "oh it's always been ok before" falls in a hole.
It appears that you failed to pick up the point I'm trying to make here. To give you a little bit of help, re-read this part
Apparently all the type of jobs we currently have are everything that can exist ever and nothing new can be created.
Also,
Oh we don't all ascribe to the same thought processes oh no! Stupid humans varying thoughts from each other!
Sorry if I think we are at the peak of labor and that the mentality of "oh it's always been ok before" falls in a hole
What the hell is it? Is there something wrong with your mental health? Can we talk like a normal human being? It doesn't make you sound cool or smart unfortunately. It sounds like a pretentious 12 years old, very annoying, so please cut it.
I never said nothing new can be created. Just that it will be super unlikely to be able to keep up with the workforce we have as we automate. Thus the need for a ubi in the future in the first place.
The future is not looking like the horse and buggy problem. Where there were a billion other low hanging fruit jobs in the past. We are quickly leaving that behind and hopefully our population stabilizes quickly.
Also Bite me I'll talk how I always have. Do You have some problem with others that don't subscribe to your exact needs for communication? Are you some sort of 10 year old who needs to be babied?
Just that it will be super unlikely to be able to keep up
This is what you believe, put a "I think" infront of it. Real economy doesn't work like Star Trek or your fantasy.
Do You have some problem with others that don't subscribe to your exact needs for communication?
What part of "it's annoying" you couldn't understand?
Are you some sort of 10 year old who needs to be babied?
This is so desperate it's funny, but can you be a just little bit more original? Anyway find someone else to bark at. I don't want to bother with the like of you anymore.
I dont think you have any understanding of how this works.
Every dollar of UBI given to someone to not work was taken from someone who does work.
No, it was taken from the economy... an economy generated by automation and consumerism here and abroad. Yes some of the money will come from taxes but it wouldn't make since to tax the UBI but rather sales, property, and import/export taxes.
Now if you take your UBI and live off of just that you should be able to live a very basic simple life.
If you want to have more in life you can work. You still get your UBI + your pay. Your pay is taxed but, again, your UBI isn't. Now your pay will be based on your work just like it is now.
Now there is some questions that will take time to answer and will depend on the technology of automation. What types of jobs are available, how difficult they are, what kind and cost of schooling for it, . . . unfortunately as robots and automation become the only solution there will be little other choice.
Montem_ · 1 points · Posted at 19:54:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm not. Everyone (already) has the option to work or not work. Some people choose the latter and find someone to be dependent on. So rather than one person being forced to support them all of society does.
This example also applies to people who are working jobs that don't need to exist anymore and could easily be automated. Automation would occur much faster than it already does if it didn't mean it would destroy people's livelihoods.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 19:57:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Montem_ · 3 points · Posted at 20:39:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is not a matter of choice. These are people who did not have access to the means of finding a 'more permanent' way to make money. They thought their way was permanent.
The only difference between those people and the wealthy kids who I go to university with and who work my job is the latter never have to worry because mommy and/or daddy or some mommy and daddy along the line got lucky and were able to exploit the labour of others to get rich.
Not to mention we as a society have chosen to actively discourage some groups from supporting themselves. We isolate addicts to a point where they have nothing to do but use drugs or go to jail, and make accessing work even more difficult. We tell people with downs syndrome they cannot be functioning members of society when many of them in fact can with a minute amount of patience. We decided that both children and retirees should be subsidized by society rather than having to work while you're growing/work till you're dead.
What's the problem with allowing people who are contributing minimally to drop out of the workforce? Society exists to support each other. We do that every day in helping our friends and family, and smiling at strangers on the street, but we've created a society so obsessed with money that the government taking another few dollars from everyone per week (or a bunch of money if you're making a ridiculous amount of money and it couldn't actually matter) is a nightmare.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 20:43:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Montem_ · 3 points · Posted at 20:49:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I want a centralized government that properly regulates the economy, and other issues, in a form that prevents greed-drive abuse like we currently have to ensure that it is a government by and for the people. Like the Scandinavian countries.
As for if it's voluntary or not, I believe that being a part of society means you are receiving the support of society, and therefore are a supporting member of the society. Hence the term being a "Social Contract", implying you are both giving and getting something to participate. You are welcome to break the contract, but that comes with the consequences of no longer having the support of society, which many people choose to do and live mostly off the grid and minimally interact with society. The other option is to push for changes when the social contract is no longer functioning as it currently is, which I am a big believer in.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 21:29:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Subjecting someone to something simply because they were born in it isnt right. Thatd be like saying we have a contractual agreement I have to adhere to yet didnt agree to or even know about.
Montem_ · 1 points · Posted at 14:17:06 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Except that's exactly how society works. We are subjected to so much based on where we were born, our genetics, and what our family has done in the past. These aren't things we agreed to at any point, they're simply things that are.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 15:09:37 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Nobody is "forcing" you to go to work in the morning. Nobody will show up to your house with a gun and say "get back to your desk".
Of course you will eventually be fired, but you do not have a natural "right" to the job that you currently have. It was by voluntary association that you decided to work for your employer, and your employer decided to hire you.
The fact that you will eventually starve to death is not proof that society is "forcing" you to work. Your needing food to survive is a fact of the universe. Other than working to acquire it (or seeking the charity of others), your only option is to steal it from someone else, who has worked to produce it, or acquired it through some voluntary transaction.
The universe was here first and will be here long after you're gone. Everybody needs to eat. Stop taking things from others by actual force and then justifying it ex-post-facto by saying that nature forced you to steal it.
Montem_ · 2 points · Posted at 20:07:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Except everything you're describing are social constructs already. Before the creation of society, when humans weren't humans and were animals, we didn't pay rent, or pay for food, or have any sort of taxes or worry about land. We found shelter or built it, and foraged or hunted food. That option simply doesn't exist anymore, and therefore people have entered into a social contract where they offer the one thing they have: their labour. The problem is, not all humans are equal, and not all ability to labour is the same. For a long time, this wasn't a problem, as the ability to screw in a screw on an assembly line was enough to make enough money in a 40 hour a week job and live a decent life.
But, the world is changing, and many of the jobs that requite basic labour are automated, and we continue to automate more and more complex jobs. Shouldn't that allow for more people to recieve back all that their ancestor's labour created? Most people want to contribute to society, and try very earnestly at it. If you've ever done nothing productive for an extended period of time, it's difficult. Often times people will just start doing socially productive things, like good deeds for friends or creating art.
Allowing for a system where people are free to govern their own lives and not worry if what they are doing is 'profitable' is a logical outcome of a society where labour is no longer a valuable resource, unless we go with the other option of letting these 'weaker labourers' suffer because of their inferiority, often caused by an initial lack of access to education and other resources important to creativity and adaption necessary for the changing workforce.
Before the creation of society, when humans weren't humans and were animals, we didn't pay rent, or pay for food, or have any sort of taxes or worry about land. We found shelter or built it, and foraged or hunted food.
And people lived in complete and utter poverty. Don't glorify the past This is not an option that has been taken away from people.
people have entered into a social contract
Sorry, I don't remember entering into this contract. Would you also say that people in other (non-US) societies have entered into these contracts as well?
where they offer the one thing they have: their labour
Social contract theory (whether or not you believe it exists) has nothing to do with your labor. Not that I agree with this, but as Hobbes / Rousseau originally argued it, the social contract is where an individual "either explicitly or tacitly, to surrender some of their freedoms and submit to the authority of the ruler or magistrate (or to the decision of a majority), in exchange for protection of their remaining rights."
The reason this has nothing to do with labor, is because at the time people were debating the topic (1600s-1700s), most people were still living like animals (apparently): scraping by in poverty in their own built shelters, surviving on subsistence farming, not paying rent or taxes, etc.
For a long time, this wasn't a problem, as the ability to screw in a screw on an assembly line was enough to make enough money in a 40 hour a week job and live a decent life.
"For a long time" was a period of barely 100 years. And you are operating under a very, very, very different definition of "live a decent life" than people expect in the year 2017. There were no iphones or color TVs - there wasn't even electricity until the early 1900s in most parts of the US, let alone in foreign nations. You don't need to make $60,000/yr in the US to live a lifestyle equivalent to someone in the middle class during the 1950s.
But, the world is changing, and many of the jobs that requite basic labour are automated, and we continue to automate more and more complex jobs.
And more jobs are created in their place, because people always want to consume more and more stuff (either by volume or complexity).
Shouldn't that allow for more people to recieve back all that their ancestor's labour created?
I honestly have no idea what this means. You already receive all that your ancestors left to you (minus tax). Anything else would be things that you've taken from other people's ancestors. By that logic, are poor people in Bangladesh entitled to your income, because we are all brothers and sisters here on planet Earth? Shouldn't they benefit from all of the labor of others around the world? I mean, they're currently living in complete destitution. You'd be in the top 1% for sure.
Is an immigrant who moves to the United States next Tuesday also entitled to collect a check based on the cumulative labor of your ancestors?
Often times people will just start doing socially productive things, like good deeds for friends or creating art.
If they are truly providing value for others in their community, then they can be paid for it (less the obvious fact that gov't sets wage regulations and makes it very hard for people to start businesses & get paid for things).
free to govern their own lives and not worry if what they are doing is 'profitable'
You are missing the #1 largest point of capitalism. The thing that makes it so great. In order to achieve "profit" you have to provide things or services to the people around you / in your community, in excess of the creations of others that you use up in the process. To do something truly valuable whether it's being a cashier at a supermarket, or creating a work of art, requires that other people want your services enough that they are willing to give something of theirs in return (money, food, etc).
society where labour is no longer a valuable resource
This will almost certainly never be the case. And if it is the case, we will be such an automated society that the price of all commodities will be so close to zero, that anyone will be able to afford any items they need to survive. As of now, we are not even close to having enough real resources to go around, for everyone to live the comfortable middle class existence that you dream of. Even if you exclude the rest of planet Earth outside of the US - we still do not have nearly enough resources.
letting these 'weaker labourers' suffer because of their inferiority
I'm not suggesting that anyone should "suffer because of their inferiority". You are simply looking at the big picture in the wrong way. Your original comment stated that "Some people are content with waking up and not doing much. Consuming media like Television, Radio, and Music, and purchasing things still makes the economy function." If people wish to wake up and contribute nothing to those around them, then fine. That's their choice. But to steal the creations of those who do work, in order to subsidize the lifestyle of those who don't is morally wrong. And to say that "purchasing things still makes the economy function" is objectively wrong. You have it backwards: producing things makes the economy function. Producing things is how the United States and Europe has gone from abject poverty, not even 150 years ago, to living in a society where "Umm, idk, I think im gonna sit home and binge watch House of Cards on Netflix with a pint of Ben and Jerry's" is a phrase that even exists.
Montem_ · 1 points · Posted at 14:36:00 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm not glorifying the past. I'm reflecting on what it looked like to live outside of a modern society. Every single society since the inception on society in the fertile crescent has had a form of social contract that people either accept "because that's the way things are" or try to change.
No, Social Contract theory does not explicitly mention labour but labour is key to understanding how and why the Social Contract has changed. In Feudalistic Europe, a large aspect of social contract was that the serfs exchanged their labour for protection by their liege and a portion of what their labour created. In Mercantilism and early Capitalism, people traded their labour for some form of monetary compensation, which could be spent at varying locations depending on the type of compensation.
As we've gotten into later capitalism, labour has changed from more physical labour into a higher value for skilled and creative labour in a way that wasn't true on a large scale outside of trader's guilds in the past (and even then, the guilds ensured that those people all received fair wages and were supportive of each other). This individualized labour created, outside of exploitative enterprising done by lieges and the owning class prior, a different economy where small, difficult to attain advantages can leave a person in a very different spot than their peers.
These advantages are things like being born in one nation as opposed to another, having your gene express white skin, or whatever other genetic traits members of the ruling class have, sex, gender, sexuality, religion, heritage, access to schooling at various levels, availability of parents during growth, and other issues along the same lines that people don't have control of.
By that logic, yes, the person in Bangladesh is entitled to part of my income, and part of the income of everyone until that person isn't living in poverty in a global society where enough wealth exists that no one should be living in poverty. We live in a globalized society, whether we like it or not, which lacks any sort of global regulation for a system that is inherently exploitative of those who have not been in the position to obtain captial.
And that's what the core of capitalism is: everyone wants to obtain capital, which inherently begets more capital. But, since capital begets capital, it is natural for capital to accumulate among a small few in unfettered capitalism. Capital does not 'produce' things. Capital does help produce things, but benign capital can exist in a state which does not actively benefit the economy, seen with things like the sub-prime mortgage market before the crash and that has arisen now. Production has, for millennia, been the core of society, but humans are decreasingly necessary for the consistent production of things and more for the less-strenuous maintenance, upgrades, and inventions of and for means of production. In a capitalist society, we assert that those with capital should own the means of production, but capital was originally obtained through land, which was owned by and gifted from the owning class since early on in civilization. We therefore still live in a hierarchical society which stratifies people who were born rich, and while there are occasional exceptions to this rule, which is a fantastic improvement created by a capitalist society, we refuse to continue to regulate in a manner that encourages people to 'work hard' as income increases fail to match inflation (in 2014 inflation was 1.6% and only people in the 90th percentile and above averaged that kind of income increase). We live in a society that does not care about the poor and no longer, and has never with the brief exception of a time between 1939 and 1980, valued their labour for its actual value.
They'd also be more likely to start businesses. Knowing that you aren't going to starve or be homeless if your business doesn't work out takes a lot of the risk out of it.
to_mars · 6 points · Posted at 18:06:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Some would, sure, but if there's a basic livable income remember there's an option of not working at all. Some would be happy doing just that.
There's also probably some argument that the people who want to seek out skills will be doing so anyway.
A basic livable income enables those who cannot seek out new skills - likely because they cannot afford certification or whatever. In this right, a higher minimum wage would accomplish the same thing.
I'd like to engage in academic research (of the mathy flavor--all I need is a computer with internet access and some paper and pencils), but I'm not good enough at it to secure a position as research faculty at a university. When I finish graduate school, I'll need to get an industry job, or take a huge risk on a startup and hope I can retire early in order to do research.
To me, UBI would be like getting tenure, except better: no university bureaucracy.
The point was that fewer would because the amount of work you would have to do wouldn't change but the relative benefits of not doing the work would stay the same. Those people who want to be respected for doing something hard or looked up to for being wealthy would still do it, but the people who do it for the stuff not so much. Because they'd already have some stuff without working, and for some people some stuff is enough stuff.
I think you underestimate the laziness of a lot of people
bwc6 · 9 points · Posted at 17:09:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I've heard people argue that universal basic income would cause an explosion of small businesses. There are probably a ton of people with great business ideas that are unable to quit their current jobs because they're living paycheck-to-paycheck.
People are happy when they are financially independent due to their own efforts.
Citation needed. I've not seen a single study exploring the link between financial independence and happiness that draws a statistically significant negative connection between happiness and "welp this money just kinda happened to me."
Lack of jobs is one thing, but people who have them are also ill-compensated for their time. And on one hand we act disdainfully toward the poor and unemployed, but glorify the people who sit on their ass and collect capital gains.
Things suck because the vast majority of the population is exploited for a handful's great profit.
You only develop skills for work? You have no personal enjoyment or development outside of what will get you more money? That is a very seriously sad way to live your life.
If jobs or income was guaranteed, fewer people would learn those skills, start businesses, and work hard - because the reward for doing so would be lower.
Evidence?
Everything I've read on the subject says that money isn't a particularly good motivator.
Guys like us aren't really doing it either. The manufacturers are demanding automation to stay competitive without offshoring. We are just filling that demand.
Ah, I can imagine how that would be one of the first places that are hit by automation. Only problem is by using these remote systems you face huge problems with cyber security. So many of these things are IoT devices opened up to the internet with huge attack surfaces. I've seen systems for entire stadiums or large buildings that were simple to infultrate and allowed attackers to crank up the heat or cut cooling. Ever encounter this?
[deleted] · 18 points · Posted at 17:36:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A lot of people don't realize that even if you pay the workers 5 dollars a day, it's often still cheaper to use automation. Those robots are still going to be cheaper than paying you slaves wages. Also, about half the population isn't smart enough to become a scientist or even a decent engineer. The future is likely to hold great suffering.
Gnash_ · 8 points · Posted at 18:46:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
half the population isn't smart enough to become a scientist or even a decent engineer. The future is likely to hold great suffering.
Not to forget that it's these people who are giving birth to the most children.
Though, intelligence and will aren't innate so there's still hope
[deleted] · 6 points · Posted at 19:13:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[removed]
Cazz90 · 13 points · Posted at 19:32:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Then there is no incentive for anyone to work
Sure there will. Basic income is just that basic. People would want to work so they can have luxuries still.
I mean, the idea behind basic income is, literally, to ensure people can afford basic food, clothing, and shelter. To me, this doesn't exactly conjure up an image of some guy sitting in a nice detached suburban house playing video games all day on his top of the line gaming PC while drinking plenty of beer and getting pizza delivered daily. Someone living entirely on basic is gonna be able to afford a shitty little apartment, Wal-Mart clothing, and a lot of rice and beans.
Are you saying you're so incredibly opposed to taxes that you'd give up your entire income, which even at a much higher tax rate is still gonna be piles more money than those on basic are getting, so you can join those who're living just barely above the poverty line for free?
Not on, but: It depends on how much more getting a high level/stress job will net you. If it's about the same as it would get me now, then I'm all for it. But if I'm working hard for a marginal increase, well life's too short
Well, sure, but that applies just as much today as in a hypothetical future of high taxes and UBI. I wouldn't, for example, accept a supervisory position at my work for less than $15k/year extra after seeing the stress and extra hours (of unpaid overtime) they have.
And not every single person on the planet has the ability to learn these things. Otherwise they would have.
Besides, even if everyone did it would just glut the industry and drive wages down. The person starved for pay will take what they can get, and employers will begin using that as the new starting package.
It's a lose lose for everyone but those that own the robots.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 11:56:02 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
With automation accelerating I'm not sure how any job left isn't already out of some people's reach or isn't going to lead to a massive glut in each job that the average person can get.
You're talking entire industries.
For example.
The trucking industry. There are 3.5 million truckers on the road. There's an additional 4.5 million ancillary jobs associated in that industry. That's in the US alone.
Driverless trucks are coming. Don't stick your head in the sand and say it won't. Too many companies across the globe are pushing for it. It will happen.
It's ludicrous to think that we'll just adapt those 8 million workers into something immediately. There's gonna be a time frame of suffering and misery to get those 8 million back into the work force if we can even replace those 8 million jobs.
And sure. A percentage of them will adapt and become robot servicers. But not 8 million of them.
We'll use the same percentage from our other exchange (around 33% in case you weren't paying attention).
Let's say 2.64 million become servicers.
Should we focus on that number and rejoice the fact 2.64 million people now have a job?
Where does that leave the 5.36 million people without a job that had one in that industry? Do we celebrate here too? Where do 5.36 million people go when they a) already had an education and used it for this industry b) maybe weren't cut out for college and used this as a stepping stone to a decent career or c) don't have much else to do now their lively hood is gone?
Education costs have been skyrocketing to the point even Community College is getting expensive.
And that's still me asserting that if these people could have gone to college for anything else they already would have.
So yes. There will be new industries that arise from automations stranglehold. But that still leaves millions upon millions without a job. And what about the driving wages down for these new industries?
What do we do about that? Do we say to them 'Fuck you, I got mine. Maybe you should have been born smarter?'
Do we mock them? Do we help them? Will the market sort it out?
As a robot mechanic, I promise you the single worst application for robots is fixing robots. Our work is creative and often involves inventing new manipulators and programming.
By the tine we hit that, it will be a star trek future where we all move around in our hover chairs, constantly entertained by video screens with food always on standby. :/
It's not just the thinking. It's the flexibility of my tasks. Do you know how many days of mine have been the same as the last? None. Not a single day has been repetitive. Do you know what robots are awful at? Different tasks. You can build a manipulator that can lift 300lb objects. Can it snake itself into an electrical panel to route a wire? No. Can you make a strong 20 jointed manipulator? Sorta. It will fall apart fast and lacks precisions. How do you make something that can take apart a hydraulic line in an awkward spot to make a pressure reading and then tig weld a fitting that is buried deep inside a machine?
Trust me, I work on this junk every day. Robots fixing robots is not even on the distant horizon. It is literally the last job to be replaced and will come in somewhere between warp drive and replicator technology.
Again, it is as much of a hardware problem as a software problem. Machines are actually really shitty. Especially when they have to slither into a giant machine somewhere. Every 10% increase in complexity brings a 25% increase in unreliability and maintenance problems. Our hands auto repair when we sleep. Machines just wear out and break. Until we get star trek replicators I am fine.
Yet, even with the repairing cost, the machines are cheaper than us. It's not about perfection, it's about being better than us. There are robots out there that already drive better than us and machines are now writing articles. Better than us, because they know how to properly clickbait.
Simply put: machines are better/cheaper than us. There are already factories where more than 70% of the workforce is robotic. There are robots that do stock trading. There are janitor-ish bots, like roomba. Heck everything can be automated. Even farming is mostly automated.
To think robots will not replace us is foolish. Hardware is not a problem. They managed to get object recognition software to work on a 5 euro raspberry pi. A fucking 5 euro PC can recognise objects now.
See, the neat thing about being a robot mechanic is that the more robots there are, the more work there is. No automated repair system will ever work properly. A rat chews a wire and a code says a sensor. Fine details like how a connector feels when it goes together or getting in there to tighten the pin. There is too much variety to ever automate anything.
So learn how to fix the robots.
There is no question that the face of employment is changing and far less workers will be needed. The system must evolve along with it. A guaranteed minimum income is a must. Perhaps funds usable foe food, clothes, education, etc that appear on a debit card and expires after 30 days. The money must still be accounted for. Dumping new money leads to problems like Venezuela has. 700% inflation is bad.
I'm buying an electric robot mower that can mow acre next spring. I'm taking my job. Because I have better things to do with my time.
There is too much variety to ever automate anything.
That was the problem until nerual nets came into play. Now variety is not a big deal for a robot anymore. They are, in a way, human like. And there is nothing that won't stop us from simulating the brain.
It should be noted that giving a neural net to a robot won't give it emotions, due to the limited input/output nodes aka what it can do/understand. A robot can still feel emotions if the neural net model permits it, but there is no need for it.
So there you go, no robot uprising and better than a human.
The physical act of repairing something, troubleshooting, tuning or custom building industrial automation is too complex a task for automation itself. It is the very thing automation is terrible at. I know this, as I work with the gear every single day.
YES, INDEED. I, ELON MUSK, HUMAN BUSINESSMAN KNOW THINGS THAT THE COMMON, FLESHY MAN DOES NOT, THOUGH I AM MYSELF COMPLETELY FLESHY, SAVE FOR MY CALCIUM BONES THAT ARE NOT MADE OF METAL.
Sorry but you don't have the right to dump toxic chemicals into water supplies. And if that causes layoffs to keep your profit margins that's your problem
Regulations on steel foundries makes it extremely inefficient (costing electricity) and provides a minimal decrease in particulates (bag-houses and electrostatic scrubbers etc. etc. provide multiple overlapping layers with minimal efficiency increase as you keep adding more) and any steel that you need to import is probably made somewhere else which has cheaper regulations and needs to be put on a truck, then on a boat, then on trucks again (#1 polluting transportation is container shipping).
If we all share the same atmosphere and planet, each country should push for increased standards while still being realistic about whether overall carbon/pollution costs can be reduced by having slightly laxer regulations at home. It's a really negative situation to be importing steel from China because of poor regulations, poor steel quality (sulphides etc., it corrodes more and often needs to be re-manufactured), extra shipping pollution, and no export taxes in China or import taxes in the US (but that's its own thing).
It's better to pollute in your own backyard where you believe your neighbors actually care and would hold companies accountable if they fuck up, rather than keep it "out of sight out of mind" where it's mostly out of control.
Paris-accord style accounting would mean that you would have to pay extra to move production back to a developed country rather than a developing one. Countries with low emissions are also literally paying for poor countries to fix their problems. It's a massive wealth transfer between countries, to the tune of trillions of dollars. Most of the targets don't kick in until 2020, and compliance is kept to the countries themselves - do you think China is really going to report accurate emissions levels? Even if they tried, that's an extremely difficult technical and bureaucratic challenge. With a totalitarian government, they don't have open and honest accounting of environmental impacts.
Fixing carbon emissions won't happen by making rich countries pay poor ones, or by making the government promise to hit targets that it doesn't really have the ability to accurately enforce or measure. It'll happen when proper green energy tech hits the open market that doesn't have the massive environmental impacts of solar panels and lithium batteries, which are no better than the gasoline or natural gas engines/generators they are replacing over the short-term. By the long-term, they will be obsolete or drop in efficiency rapidly (see current solar panels & batteries). It's way better to keep using carbon for the short term until we have a revolutionary green tech invention, rather than causing so much economic harm by dumping carbon pre-emptively that we harm our ability to generate new solutions.
I'm going to call for a source on the "the massive environmental impacts of solar panels and lithium batteries." Yeah, mining them out of the ground is no greener than coal. Once it is out of the ground, however, its not adding to emissions, unlike coal, which adds by being burned (meaning, btw, that we need to mine a lot of it in order to meet the same level of energy output as a solar panel. A pile of coal will keep a house cool for a day, but a solar panel array will keep a house cool for several summers, and that's being conservative). Also, assuming silicon (main material in solar panels) and lithium are infinitely renewable, all we will have to do is mine it once and make sure to recycle it. Once there is enough lithium and silicon coming out of recycling plants, mining should go down.
I'm not saying the Paris accord is perfect, either. You are right that it is optimistic to think that no country will lie about meeting compliance. However, it is better than nothing. Also, I'm going to ask for a source on "Countries with low emissions are also literally paying for poor countries to fix their problems." not sure what you mean by this or how the Paris accord could possibly make environmental impacts worse.
I agree with you that manufacturing processes need to be way more efficient, and importing steel causes more harm than making here in the states. However....
It's better to pollute in your own backyard where you believe your neighbors actually care and would hold companies accountable if they fuck up, rather than keep it "out of sight out of mind" where it's mostly out of control.
People dont care, especially politicians getting "campaign contributions" from these corporations. I'm not saying it's anyone else's fault but the company, but they sure as hell aren't being held accountable for their massive fuckups.
You have to keep in mind that these corporations really, truly do not give a fuck about us, money always comes first. If it weren't for regulations we'd be in the same boat as Shanghai, where people have to wear face masks to walk outside.
People dont care, especially politicians getting "campaign contributions" from these corporations. I'm not saying it's anyone else's fault but the company, but they sure as hell aren't being held accountable for their massive fuckups.
They have more social capital than citizens in China. American citizens are far more empowered to have legal avenues to hold companies accountable than Chinese citizens. Remember, assuming good demands are somewhat inelastic, that steel (or whatever other good) needs to be made somewhere on planet earth. Of course manufacturing something like this or semiconductors or any other good involving toxic chemicals and waste byproducts would create a large amount of pollution, but that's just the shitty reality of life. If the country is getting swarmed in pollution, maybe citizens will understand the cost of their disposable, wasteful society and actually want something different. That's what pushed China to make such a big leap for green tech, the citizens were so mad about living conditions that they were ready to revolt. Our Western disposable consumer society is primarily what caused that. If our goods were made at home, we would have had a green technology revolution too.
Actually, it has more to do with the lack of regulations regarding trade policies. You may find it easy to shit all over un-named "regulations," (and I'm not going to sit here and say that all regulations are enforced in the most efficient way possible, no one is perfect) but when you stop and think about what the most expensive regulations are you realize why they are there.
Easily the most expensive regulations in US factories are health and safety regulations. Testing equipment to make sure it won't randomly explode, putting guards on fast moving equipment so fingers don't get lost, training operators on how to safely operate the machinery, etc. Another huge cost (though not technically a regulation) are the living wages unions collectively bargain for, not to mention benefits like healthcare, pensions, etc. You know, the stuff that goes to protecting the very people whose job was lost overseas. You think they are going to want to take back their job if that means they have to take a 50% pay cut, have their kids work along side them (that's right, most of southeast Asia doesn't have those pesky child labor laws), lose all of their benefits, and severely increase their chance of losing their (or their kid's) life or limb at their job? Of course not. They don't deserve to live like that, no one deserves to live like that.
Instead of trying to win the race to the bottom, we should force other countries to come to the top. Re-negotiate our trade agreements to be "fair trade" instead of "free trade". This means we would stipulate in the trade agreement that any trading partner would have to have some minimum level of worker protection laws. This would not only bring back jobs to the US, but would also revitalize the economies of our trading partners because they would finally have jobs that paid a living wage (you know, that thing that created the middle class in the US in the first place?). All in all, it is a win win situation (except for the greedy corporations, who have to go back to paying people something they can actually survive off of).
I work for a company that makes bulk packaging systems and machines. You are so right about automation. Robots are the future. More and more, my company's machines are being designed to eliminate the human worker.
That's exactly what I'm thinking; we're going to see less manual laborers and more computer drafters, which is what I am. I don't personally work with the robots, but we use them quite a bit here.
Manufacturing isn't even the biggest bubble, it has been more of an insidious move over the past generation or two. Once self-driving trucks become a thing (very soon, I imagine), millions of people could lose their jobs almost overnight.
Automation of logistical networks. This will have the largest positive and negative effect on the economy. Real time data of tracking goods and sales will make our economy hyper efficient, trends could be predicted via real time data. Prices of goods will drop significantly, but the Jobs pool will shrink dramatically, that we will really need to create more trade schools out of necessity.
Lmao I love it when people compare shit to that. "Well dadgummit if we can put a man on the moon" like that's at all relevant to legal battle self driving commercial trucks will face.
It's almost as good as when people drop the current year argument.
What is the biggest legal battle they're going to face? Unions? Liability? Legitimately curious as I believe much of the hype around self-driving vehicles is overblown from a technical standpoint for many parts of the US let alone the world.
That isn't at all relevant to the upcoming legal battle that self driving commercial vehicles will face.
jbaird · 4 points · Posted at 17:57:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And who's fault is it? all of ours.. we love cheap shitty products and continue to buy them by the ton. This isn't an evil plot by China to take over America, hell there's a good argument they're getting the shitty end of this deal (lots of horrible working conditions / environmental impact)
Local economic benefit is worth something to anyone with enough income to be buying wants and needs (over needs alone). Just how much it's worth and showing the frugal tightwads that is much of humanity that it's better is the hard part ;).
Vadoff · 4 points · Posted at 18:27:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Even in China, a lot of those manufacturing jobs are now being taken over by less developed asian countries and by robots.
Kimmiro · 8 points · Posted at 15:33:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Jobs are being automated away not shipped overseas. That's cheaper than overseas labor.
K20BB5 · 10 points · Posted at 16:14:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This narrative really bothers me. First of all, its both. I don't know why some people are trying to pretend its all robots. Robots may make up a significant portion of it, but so do trade agreements. Second of all, and maybe its just me, but it seems like this narrative wasn't pushed at all until 2016, just in time for Hillary "my husband agreed to all these trade bills" Clinton to bribe her way to becoming the democratic nominee for president. (before you jump down my throat, I voted for her. I may prefer Bernie to Hillary, but anyone is better than the Orange menace). This narrative really puts a bad taste in my mouth, which is unfortunate because its not fake, just misleading (and it doesn't have to be). There are solutions to both of these issues: Universal basic income and free college education will deal with the robots, and Fair trade (not free trade) will deal with overseas job loss. We can fix this issue, but first we need to be honest with ourselves.
It's not impossible to bring them back, it would just result in a net lower GDP because it would have to be forced through tariffs. However, this might ultimately result in a better quality of life for the average American blue-collar worker, because as it stands now corporations are not passing on their profits to the bulk of their employees. Shareholders and executives are reaping the lion's share of US economic growth. Point being there are two sides to the argument.
No, it's pretty much impossible. Even if we couldn't import anything, robots would just make the products here. Even China is having problems with automation taking jobs, and they pay literal slave wages. Those jobs are never, ever coming back.
Don't be such a downer, you just need to weaken your economy enough and they'll come right back!
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:32:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Problem is that the middle class is dying because of those jobs going away. And people who take those jobs in Mexico are lower class cause the salaries are cheap (reason why it's more cost effective).
Globalization is the killer of the middle class for everyone.
Also, money, stocks, jobs, etc. are all just stand-ins for the amount of raw materials available and the efficiency of the organization in distributing and utilizing them. Creating more jobs, printing money, seeing the stock market go up, none of these things actually create more wealth. Only gathering and developing resources can do that.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 16:01:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
True, but in theory those manufacturing jobs could come back if harsh government regulation forced companies to produce in low cost U.S. states. We've had a repeated history of making companies do things that they don't want to because it hurts their bottom line and working capital, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't do it. A lack of government regulation due to no legislative results in a Republican led congress have been the reason for this.
Manufacturing in America was the reason for a lot of post war growth in the 50s and 60s - a lot of the cities affected in the Rust Belt and Detroit got fucked over by that shit. If we brought back manufacturing by providing tax incentives/grants/subsidies, we'd have substantial wage growth and spending growth which would revitalize the economy
You're forgetting the other half of the postwar growth: the rest of the world's manufacturing was bombed into oblivion by two terrible wars that didn't touch the US.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:45:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well we used a combination of post war manufacturing industry and recent service industry as well higher wages, educational investments, huge investments in infrastructure, and investments in research, all on the order of hundreds of billions.
The point is that we were heavily intervening and leveraging the power of big, efficient government. I think if we have a group of public policy experts, bankers, economists and other academia panel together, we could definitely figure out a way to push manufacturing back into the U.S. somehow through regulation with substantially offsetting COGS/operating costs as well as maintaining the profit incentive businesses have.
I think if we have a group of public policy experts, bankers, economists and other academia panel together, we could definitely figure out a way to push manufacturing back into the U.S. somehow through regulation
The main issue here is that these are the groups that are literally the ones telling us that manufacturing jobs are just gone. There aren't too many big league names throwing around ideas about new manufacturing jobs in the US because it's simply not economically feasible anymore. Those days are over. Besides, bringing them back here would be, at best, a very short-term solution to a much bigger problem.
Even in the cheapest states, the cost of goods would go up beyond what your average consumer is either willing or able to pay. That's why it's not a feasible idea.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:46:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think if we have a group of public policy experts, bankers, economists and other academia panel together, we could definitely figure out a way to push manufacturing back into the U.S. somehow through regulation with substantially offsetting COGS/operating costs as well as maintaining the profit incentive businesses have.
The reason we don't have a group of public policy experts, bankers, economists and other academia getting together to make this happen is these people have already studied it. It doesn't work. It reduces the scope for national specialisation and ramps up costs for everyone far beyond any benefit you may get from it.
tjt5055 · 14 points · Posted at 16:43:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you force companies to close down their foreign manufacturing centers and require them to build, staff and operate expensive American plants, you will see layoffs in many other areas instead. Additionally, the NASDAQ and Dow will plummet, which I'm sure we'll all enjoy.
Finally, foreign companies who are capable of manufacturing less restrictively will be able to price more cheaply and steal market share from American companies here and abroad.
It's just really bad, regressive economics aimed at appeasing those who contribute the least to our nation's economic growth.
It was great that manufacturing was such a big part of our postwar growth in the 50s and 60s, but that time has come and gone. We're a more advanced economy now, and people simply have to adapt, just like they always have. There are plenty of programs available for people to learn new job skills.
All you would have to do is tax the shit out of imports. That's not forcing the companies to close down it just lets them know it will be a shitload cheaper if they just make everything in America.
Which will make them pick the american product because of price, causing competition to move to america, create jobs, and try to beat their price. While at the same time small businesses will spring up over night to fill the price gap.
No matter what we do to try and fix things there will be bumps here and there.
tjt5055 · 3 points · Posted at 19:55:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm sorry, man, but you simply need to do some more reading on this subject. You're missing some pretty huge factors in all of your points.
Their not my points i am just parroting them, but thanks for not insulting me and keeping it civil.
tjt5055 · 8 points · Posted at 17:29:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Certainly less restrictive, but you're still seriously increasing operating costs and now you're disrupting the global economy in order to bring back low paying jobs from the 50s... while we're at 4.3% unemployment, a seriously enviable figure.
"Tax imports". You don't think that our trading partners might have a problem with that? That that would disband existing trade agreements or trigger counteracting tariffs on our exports?
Open markets make everybody richer. It's been that way ever since the Silk Road and the Indian Ocean Merchant Trade Network. Modern China is a shining example of this principle in action
Our goods get tariffs put on them everywhere we send stuff. If we matched whatever they charged us it would change the game and they would have no ground to bitch. It could also be done slowly giving time to hold onto profits while they prepare for the eventual fixed maximum, which would always equal whatever they have on us.
However the increased costs of production from producing in the US would cause manufactured goods to rise in price.
lvysaur · 2 points · Posted at 20:06:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oh my. No. This is Econ 101 stuff.
Tariffs are essentially the worst form of welfare. They disrupt the market and cost investors and consumers money so a number of employees can be paid more.
But unlike normal welfare which simply redistributes money from one group to another, tariffs also stop us from making use of comparative advantage. The result is a dead loss of wealth to society as a whole.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 21:26:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Thanks for the information. I am uninformed here. Altho AEI is conservative lol
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 12:28:46 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
According to our calculations, explained in this policy brief, the total cost to American consumers from higher prices resulting from safeguard tariffs on Chinese tires was around $1.1 billion in 2011. The cost per job manufacturing saved (a maximum of 1,200 jobs by our calculations) was at least $900,000 in that year (see table above).
Wow, you are right, although I don't remember being taught this in econ
Can you give me some other sources regarding international trade / domestic spending / regulation and how it may hurt businesses from AEI or any other think tanks/research institutions? I am highly interested.
Are there any other views you have aside from tariffs that you think hurt the growth and efficiency of an economy?
lvysaur · 1 points · Posted at 16:03:28 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I believe concepts such as free trade are covered pretty well in the /r/economics sidebar. As far as other policies...
Current zoning laws are way too restrictive and are probably the biggest factor in our housing shortage. 12
Corporate income taxes should be zero. 3. Value added taxes and negative income taxes are considered much more efficient by economists. Negative income taxes are especially useful in that they can eliminate welfare traps 4
A good number of environmental regulations should be rolled back and replaced with a carbon tax, which allows for more fluid free-market solutions instead of lines arbitrarily drawn in the sand.
Property taxes should be based on the value of the plot of land, not the structure on the land. Existing property taxes discourage development. (Another contributing factor to our housing shortage).
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:21:34 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Expand on your views in environmental reform. Tsunamis/flooding/environmental disaster/crop shortages/monsoons will be very prominent because of climate change and Republicans are denying it. What environmental regulations do you think should be cut off, what are your opinions on the EPA, and how do you think this carbon tax would work?
Personally, why should corporate income taxes be zero? Also, corporations would just abuse that money if they weren't taxed. Notice how average people pay so much in taxes even tho the rate is like 35% which I think is fucked up cuz they have high ass salaries and bonuses while Americans have shity wage growth (minimum wage that is $8 is not enough.. it needs to be like $20). Think about it, high ass cost of living that is constantly on the rise while the minimum wage stays the same, how does that make any sense? Off people are broke and on welfare. If you don't want welfare traps and wanna get rid of welfare you need to pay people enough wages so they don't fall back to the safety net...
lvysaur · 1 points · Posted at 17:59:52 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
On Carbon tax-
A good example here would be the tale of the Chevy Cobalt. Obama mandated that all car manufacturers needed their total cars in production to average a minimum MPG. Chevy, who makes lots of trucks, had to start producing the Chevy Cobalt in response, which ended up being a massive failure.
Instead of coming up with some arbitrary MPG number, each car manufacturer could have been taxed relative to the carbon footprint of their product. Auto manufacturers already over the MPG line would have been incentivized to improve further, and Chevy wouldn't have made the Cobalt.
Personally, why should corporate income taxes be zero?
The very short explanation is corporate taxes discourage investing, which we want to encourage. There are other ways of taxing people that aren't economically inefficient.
(minimum wage that is $8 is not enough.. it needs to be like $20). Think about it, high ass cost of living...
This makes sense at first glance, but fails scrutiny. Problem is that when the minimum wage isn't in line with supply and demand, everyone loses. Businesses see less profit, consumers have to pay more, and workers lose on average when you factor in cut hours and lost jobs. Like tarriffs, the result is an overall loss of wealth.
The solution to guaranteeing basic standards of living without disrupting the market is redistribution through negative income tax.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:11:25 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
So how do you respond to the minimum wage idea? If the minimum wage isn't adjusted in some way then people literally do not have money to spend. If they don't have money they will resort to welfare. Do you think the minimum wage needs to be adjusted/increased to atleast $15 to insure spending?
Do you really believe that the negative income tax will solve the issue of getting people off welfare and ensuring that they can pay for healthcare, rent/utilities, and somehow university education?
Why?
And I agree with your carbon tax example, but I am confused: 1) what do you mean "relative to the footprint of their product?, 2) do you mean they'd be incentivized to improve because of the tax? In that case, why don't we increase certain taxes/put on certain regulations to make companies do certain things like move back manufacturing?
But in general, what is your overall/universal framework to combat climate change and reverse all the CO2 emissions before Earth goes to shit? The carbon tax sample for the car manufacturer was pretty specific.
lvysaur · 1 points · Posted at 20:36:04 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think a lot of your questions are stemming from not fully understanding negative income tax (NIT).
With normal tax, a portion of the money you make goes to the government, with the rate set in different brackets depending on how much.
NIT is similar, but while normal tax bottoms out at $0 paid to the government, NIT bottoms out at -$# paid to the government. This means if you make below a certain amount, the government will start paying you money.
By utilizing negative income tax, we don't need to rely on minimum wage to ensure a basic standard of living.
1) what do you mean "relative to the footprint of their product?
Carbon footprint is a term used to quantify the amount of carbon waste associated with the creation and use of a product.
2) do you mean they'd be incentivized to improve because of the tax?
Yes.
why don't we increase certain taxes/put on certain regulations to make companies do certain things like move back manufacturing?
Forcing companies to move back is usually inefficient as it cuts off trade relations.
To heavily simplify, if I can make 10 computers and 2 shoes an hour, and Canada can make 2 computers and 10 shoes an hour, it's in both of our best interest that I specialize in making computers and Canada specializes in making shoes. On our own, it would take us each 6 hours to make 10 computers and 10 shoes. With trade and specialization, it would take us each only 2 hours.
The carbon tax sample for the car manufacturer was pretty specific.
Carbon tax is based on carbon footprint, which can be quantified and applied to nearly any industry - food, tech, manufacturing, etc.
People expect to find jobs that they can zone out and do for 8hrs but those jobs are all taken by robots. The only way to find work is to do something no one else can do or be good enough with people that you find a place in customer service.
Fact is, if things like fancy cell phones were made in the US, I wouldn't be able to afford the phone I'm typing this sentence on. An individual may drive an extra 10 minutes across town to save a couple bucks on something at Walmart, so we can't blame big corporations moving their manufacturing overseas to save Millions.
briaen · 5 points · Posted at 19:04:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I wouldn't be able to afford the phone I'm typing this sentence on.
Apple sells phones using supply and demand, not a percentage mark up. Do you really think it costs them $100 to add 32gig to the hard drive?
Another thing is the state of the economy seems to immediately flip depending on whose in office.
I was listening to Hannity while riding in the car with my dad, and for the past 8 years he's been bitching about The Great Recession and record unemployment.
But now only 7 months into a Trump admin and now he's saying the economy is at an all time high, with record LOW unemployment.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:19:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It is kind of funny.
In some ways, the economy rebounded under Obama. The problem was the unemployment numbers were kind of 'cooked' (and still are). U-6 unemployment is artificial and has been since at least the Bush years (maybe forever; remember the Bush era "non-recovery, recovery"? :D). The only thing that Trump is really responsible for is the business outlook (which, itself, has probably helped a little bit). All that said, finding a job is absolutely the hardest thing in life at this point. I really feel for people who are putting in work/education and seeing little reward for it.
This always bothered me. Isn't shoddy quality and cost of transport back and forth causing issues with this? Doesn't this just say the shareholders that you'd rather exploit a foreigner than high someone in your own country? I would think it would devalue a brand.
Even if those jobs did "come back", prices at places like WalMart would skyrocket because instead of paying a guy in China 10 dollars a day to make a product, you're now paying a unionized American in an OSHA-compliant factory $45/hr+ (plus taxes & healthcare).
The reason so many Ameican jobs went to China is because American consumers pushed for it hard. They overwhelmingly bought cheaper imported products rather than more expensive American-made ones.
If there wasn't such incredible demand for cheaper products, companies wouldn't have offshored so much manufacturing to cheaper places.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:54:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's cheaper in places like China because they don't have the bureaucratic overhead like the states do. In china, you work with on an untested lathe with no safety equipment, and if the piece in the chuck goes flying out at 100mph and impales someone in the face, well too bad. Shouldn't have been standing there. Next worker.
In China they accept that because the alternative up until the past 2-3 decades was destitution.
In the US you will see people willing to revert to poorer working conditions as well if these jobs don't come back. And in chis you will see them clamoring for better worker rights until we g full circle aND the US and CHINA switch positions
The robots kill the jobs for good, yes, but workers overseas do not (in theory). The reason it is cheaper to build factories that build stuff overseas is because They don't have as strict of health and safety standards for factories, minimum wage laws, child labor laws, and unions to advocate for and protect workers. The simple reality is corporations have to treat US workers a lot better than workers overseas. So much so that it more than outweighs the cost of shipping all their product across the pacific ocean.
Some hear this and say "well its obvious that we need to get rid of labor unions and worker protections in the US in order to compete." Unfortunately, this is a complete pile of bullshit. Will it bring jobs back to the US? Yeah, but will it bring back the vanishing middle class? Fuck no. It would just move progress back over a century. Our living standards would match those of our overseas counterparts. Not cool. No one deserves to live like that.
Instead of competing with Southeast Asia et al. in a race to the bottom, we should force them to come to the top. Re-write trade agreements with other countries that stipulate that they must have some minimum level of worker protection on par with the US. That would not only bring back jobs to the US, but also raise living standards in those countries. The TPP was going to do some of this, but it had its other problems, not least of which was the lack of enforcement for this kind of worker protection. This kind of policy is called Fair Trade, and unlike Free Trade, it actually can bring about a truly global economy with fair practices for all. Remember this next time talks on international trade come up.
Global trade benefits everyone. I could spend another paragraph or two explaining the mathematics of it, but its easiest just to think about how difficult your life would be if everyone had to grow their own crops, mine and forge their own metal, and build their own cars. When we work together, everyone wins. It only works though if we are all on a level playing field, and if you really are interested in seeing everyone succeed, you should support fair trade policies.
Let's say youre making an electronic that requires many untrained workers to put little pieces perfectly in the board before the machine solders it together. As it becomes less profitable to make those in the US do to labor, real estate, raw materials being more expensive you move to China where all those things are cheaper.
That is until a machine can make these electronics in a fraction of the time at a fraction of the cost of the original labor.
Now that job is coming back to the US because if something is machined then it's probably made in the US or Germany.
All jobs are not equal, and jobs leaving and coming back is an overly basic way of looking at job creation/loss.
Just my opinion
PoL0 · 1 points · Posted at 21:25:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't want to stop the robots. Automation is good. It makes life better.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 21:34:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The end-goal of automation just begs the question of why
If the import tax was the issue Carrier wouldn't be shifting their shit down to Mexico (which they still did DESPITE Trumps measures). If it was Trumps stuff (which the Ford CEO has said it's not) then whatever.
But the fact remains it is, in the long run, cheaper to have automation (robots) than it is to shift away from America.
You know. You're right. We should celebrate the 700 jobs being created for this new factory.
But to dismiss the fact there used to be 1600 other jobs attached to that factory opening is...concerning.
And concerning your edit, -shrugs.- I believe in one of the old tenants of Conservatives. Government should most powerful at the local-est level it can be. Cities and Counties should hold the most power then work out differences to the next county. Build the strongest foundation possible and move 'upwards' from there to the State level. States rights, within the 'confines' of the constitution.
The Federal government should be the face to the world. And it should release guidelines for States.
As far as the rest? Tax cuts and tax breaks (and the loop holes within the Tax system) only hurt development. Kansas (which should be a Conservatives wet dream) is failing. Schools (and not all obviously) throughout the state are either not opening OR are opening later due to budget cuts. Education. The third most important thing for our youth after nutrition and health. And it's being strangled throughout all levels of government in a lot of states (and obviously Federally). Which baffles me.
Cuts to TANF and SNAP help no one. The bogey man Welfare Queen (and all the abuse to the system that comes with that statement) just simply doesn't exist in a large enough percentage to justify these cuts. That is to say, in states that implement these cuts (or drug testing to qualify or whatever hoop they make up to jump through) don't have an actual reason to deny people that need help beyond being cruel because every time they research welfare fraud it comes back as a negligible percentage if it's a percentage at all.
I can't think of one (beyond the one I mentioned) Conservative tenant that I would agree with.
But I do seek to understand how people don't see things like I do. Despite their post history.
Are you basically advocating for slave labor? Because that's what that sounds like. I mean.... if someone told me to work in a factory for $1.50/day with 15-18 hour days I'd call them a fucking slave driver and do whatever I could to get out of the country where that's normal.
Not to mention the economic and SOCIAL repercussions of having a massive disposable and underpaid manufacturing underclass where the fruits of their labor... DON'T EVER EVEN SEE THEIR OWN COUNTRIES. We've seen how this works out before. And it IS PREVENTABLE.
Truly my friend, your entire comment is laughable. Manufacturing jobs are already coming back to America. And have been, for 7 months. Right now. At this very moment construction is being done on new manufacturing plants accross the country. If you had simply put any real effort into finding that information you would have.
How can you even say all that anyway? Do you have any clue how much gas we burn getting our cars here on boats and trucks? An clue how much better it is for the economy and the ENVIRONMENT to manufacture domestically?
And aside from ALL OF THAT.
I guaruntee you a big fat "MADE IN USA" sticker would offset ANY costs incurred from paying real wages to americans. Instead of slave wages to a bunch of poor and disposable third world people. Idc if something is more expensive. If i see "made in usa" that's the one i choose. Never do i regret it and always i know I'm supporting the type of world i live in.
Tl;dr: Not only are you advocating for the acceptance and normalization of the damage we do to our planet, you are advocating for the acceptance and normalization of OUR USE of a foreign disposable labor force. Paid in such wages that 95% americans would probably call slavery if they had to endure one week of the work. You are advocating for the normalization and acceptance of the damage it does to the countries where those slaves exist. And you are advocating for the normalization and acceptance of the damage it does to your own country, by draining the lifeblood of our labor force; work. And you're doing it all despite the fact that all of this is being reversed in many ways.
The worst part? I think you don't know any of this. You just think things can't come back with a "wave of a magic wand." And that's your justification for all of this evil. Good job dude.
Edit: shit i forgot. "Plus automation" as if that's " just an afterthought. Make a machine that can maintain itself while manufacturing whatever you need it to. Automation is the one single thing that makes a factory line go from 1500 people to 400 people. You're absolutely correct. But it isn't an afterthought, because it certainly is inevitable.
But that doesn't have anything to do with your argument. So whatever.
lvysaur · 2 points · Posted at 20:13:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Support for global trade is highest in third world countries. Why? Because why you call "slave labor" is to them a massive upgrade over substinance farming and starving whenever the weather gets bad. Global trade has been the largest driving force in reducing global poverty.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 15:34:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I fuck that one up all the time. Is there a trick to memorizing it?
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 23:28:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Pizzow.
Think of Edgar Allen Poe and his RAVEN: Remember Affect Verb Effect Noun. You can't affect the creepy poem by reading it, but you can enjoy the effect of a talking bird.
Similarly, accept vs except. In a certain context, they actually mean the opposite of one another.
Gimgack · 2 points · Posted at 19:42:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Aeffect*
Yomoska · 2 points · Posted at 19:45:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I struggle with this and have tried really hard to learn but still can't seem to grasp it. I usually just Google similar sentences to see which one I have to use.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 23:28:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Boom.
Think of Edgar Allen Poe and his RAVEN: Remember Affect Verb Effect Noun. You can't affect the creepy poem by reading it, but you can enjoy the effect of a talking bird.
Lesp00n · 2 points · Posted at 20:48:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A combination of a shitty rural school system and dyslexia I guess means no matter how hard I try I cannot remember which one is for which thing. I at least know they are different, but fuck if I can remember which way it goes.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 23:26:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Google teaches thee.
Think of Edgar Allen Poe and his RAVEN: Remember Affect Verb Effect Noun. You can't affect the creepy poem by reading it, but you can enjoy the effect of a talking bird.
Help me with this term! It is hard to me so I don't use it
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 23:27:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I was taught by my master. Google.
Think of Edgar Allen Poe and his RAVEN: Remember Affect Verb Effect Noun. You can't affect the creepy poem by reading it, but you can enjoy the effect of a talking bird.
I know someone who does this, but I don't want to be that arsehole who goes around correcting people's grammar. So I have to put up with the irritation.
Healthy people don't understand that when you're chronically sick and miserable for most of your life, you're willing to throw whatever you have at even a possibility of feeling better. It's not that your friend or family member is suddenly really stupid. They know it's probably snakeoil and probably not going to help, but when you live every day in hell and have to keep a smile on your face no price is too high.
And yes, you have to fucking keep a smile on your face and pretend that things are okay, because if you don't, you'll fucking kill yourself. Either by falling into suicidal depression or just allowing the misery to make you weaker and weaker until you can no longer keep yourself alive through any force of will.
People with chronic illness are 100% pretending to be okay when you see them. They're not. They're sick. They're miserable. The only reason they pretend is that acting as poorly as you feel is depressing and debilitating and it's the only part of their life they can control. Literally the only thing they can do to help their condition is follow doctors' orders and pretend to be happy.
So yes. They will jump at and cling to the snakeoil because it's something they can actually do that might help, even if it probably won't. (And the placebo effect can't be underestimated either. Remember, it can work even if you know it's a placebo.)
Edit: This isn't asserting that everyone with a chronic illness (not even most people) feel this way or do this thing. I just want to help spread understanding to those close to someone who does.
They're not. They're sick. They're miserable. The only reason they pretend is that acting as poorly as you feel is depressing and debilitating and it's the only part of their life they can control. Literally the only thing they can do to help their condition is follow doctors' orders and pretend to be happy.
every time i go to the pharmacy (which is way too much).. "hi how are you?" "... good, you?"
i come so much that you know me by name, you see my meds, you see the multiple specialists writing the scripts, you see them going through different variations trying to nail down the problems with no help, insurance rejecting newer expensive meds, you see me shedding healthy weight/muscle and being pale and gaunt looking. im doing horrible, but thank you anyway :)
theyre so nice, everyone, but i hate trying to pretend. not like im just gonna unload a rant on some poor tech or pharmacist though. their jobs are already stressful enough
My in laws are some of the best people in the world. Two years ago, or so, some aunt or cousin or something complimented me on losing weight. I told them it was because of my poor health, not because I was trying to lose weight. Ever since, not a single member of that family asks "How are you?" They ask "How's your condition?" or similar.
Whomever it was I told, spread word to the others and now they're all extremely compassionate about my sickness and honestly, just having the one person remember would be overwhelming on its own, but the entire family is in on this conspiracy to support me in my illness.
I am glad that whomever spread the word was able to make such a difference for you. My wife has a chronic condition but unfortunately doesn't get the understanding from her family.
it sounds like you have a close family and support system. im kind of jealous. i deal with things the opposite way, by isolating myself and pretending things arent so bad. though ive reached the point where its impossible to hide.
i went from getting constant "wow you look great" compliments from people i havent seen for a while, after getting heavy into working out and putting on 20 pounds of muscle, to now "wow.. what happened man!?" after losing almost 40 pounds in about 6 months.
do you ever get overwhelmed by people supporting you? i didnt have the best childhood/family life and kind of had to deal with things on my own. so now ive sort of (unfortunately) put that into practice in my adult life and i can say its not working out so well. the majority of posts i type on here, i delete before i submit, or just seconds after because i imagine the responses and get overwhelmed just thinking about it
I do struggle with people being "too helpful." My husband is disgustingly healthy and always has been, so when he sees that I'm out in a bad way, he bends over backwards to do things for me. The problem is that this makes me feel helpless, as if I can't do anything for myself anymore. I feel like I'm losing my agency, but I also feel like I can't complain because I do need help sometimes.
It requires a lot of communication and it's something we have to revisit fairly often because when I have 10 days straight of all bad days we get into the habit of him doing everything for me which is bad for both of us.
I also run into the issue of people feeling like they can't complain to me when they feel shitty. "Oh trashpandabros, I was really sick, but I didn't want to bother you because you have it so much worse."
Look, what I can do is very limited, but that just means I want to do more of. If I can help when you're sick, please let me. My pain doesn't lessen yours in any way and everyone needs a hand sometimes.
I hope you can build a support system because I know how difficult it is to try and cope on your own.
thats exactly how i feel, like i cant do anything for myself and that as long as i fake it, maybe its not true. then of course getting caught up in dwelling on how things used to be and comparing myself to that. i also get the guilty feeling when someone helps me too much, like you describe with your husband
the same thing you mention about others feeling like they cant complain to you, because you have it worse, is the same way i feel and im sure you probably feel as well sometimes. i get caught up in that "well... x y or z is worse so i should just suck it up", but thats stupid.
being able to help someone or be there for them is a great feeling, especially when you know how it feels when the shoe is on the other foot. when i see people having meaningful, supportive conversations, even online like the smaller subforums, i get a bit jealous. this is one of the few times ive ever even remotely opened up even on an anonymous forum. thanks for the replies
I know the struggle. If someone brings up my condition, I usually just say something like "Oh, it's the same as it's been, but how are you doing?" If you interact with people rather regularly, you kind of have to prod them into admitting when they're having a rough time and after you ask enough they'll get into the habit of telling you.
People that push aside their own illnesses because "you have it worse" will usually remember that you're sick and will be understanding when you do eventually have to bow out of helping them with whatever, so you don't really lose anything by training them to see you as a resource. It sucks the lengths we have to go to in order to have a normal friendship sometimes, but it is what it is. We can deal with it or complain.
It's deteriorated a little. I've been putting off seeing a specialist because the way it's deteriorated suggests I am much worse off than originally thought. I really really need to go, but I also know there's not really anything the doctors can do if it is the worse thing, so I guess I'd rather stay in limbo, even though I know it's the wrong choice :(
Speaking as a person not in chronic pain, across the intertoobs, I tend to prefer to know these things. It's easy to put things off but it tends to hang over me, and usually not knowing is itself half of the stress. It sucks that you have this to deal with but it's great that it sounds like you have a great support network.
I was diagnosed with condition x. It has a lot of overlap with condition y that is much worse. I've been showing symptoms that fit y but not x. My grandfather had condition y and suffered greatly. The last thing he ever said to me was that condition y was going to make him kill himself because it wasn't worth living like that anymore. And he'd already survived lung cancer at that point, so it really hit me hard.
Just say, "Feeling kind of rough, how are you?". Yes, they're asking to be polite and traditional, but there's nothing wrong with answering truthfully, especially when the response is still pretty tame. I'm not even sick and I answer truthfully, and people accept my response. They respond with any of the following responses: that they hope everything gets better, ask me what's wrong, or commiserate with me.
[deleted] · 7 points · Posted at 17:39:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It gets old, and people see you as negative or a debbie downer if you are honest. Everyone starts ignoring you pretending you're not there.
not at the pharmacy, I love it when people tell me they are sick. It's like getting a shot of realness. The honestly feels so good, I feel like I am being treated like another human with real feelings and in turn will treat you like another human with real feelings.
this is how i feel a lot of times, but i dont think its true for everyone. i think thats mostly in my head, especially when in regards to someone working in healthcare asking
though i do agree, for some people, that is true. some people definitely drift away when youre always down and not doing well with one thing or another. i dont hold it against them, i dont think theyre all bad or whatever, some people just dont know hwo to deal with it or maybe have issues of their own and can only handle so much bad.
but yeah, definitely lost some relationships over the years. oh well
[deleted] · 4 points · Posted at 19:19:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My mom and dad flat out ignored me and pretended I wasn't living with them, when I lost my eyesight. Felt like a burden, just wanted to die. Was constantly ridiculed because of the fact I couldn't see. Really showed me where the line where my family was there for me. It hurts when you lose friends because you can't do everything you used to, but it hurts more when it's family. I couldn't talk about how I was feeling because even though I thought I was going to die (and at the point I was just like, get this over with and kill me) I had to put on the happy face just to have some company. I'm in a better situation now its just one of those things in life that change you.
jesus im sorry you had to go through that, no one deserves that, especially from family. im glad to hear you are doing better than you were. i cant relate from the family side, though the only family i really have is my dad (im not close with my brother or sister really, mostly my fault) but i can relate from the standpoint of friends. i opened up to one almost 2 years ago and told him about 2 of the issues that ruined my health, mentally and physically, one of which could have killed me, he pretended to care, offered me a job when i was ready and then disappeared. never heard from him again. lives ~10 miles from me. good riddance though. hang in there dude
sometimes i contemplate being a bit more.. honest, and then just retreat back to the "good, you?". i laughed at myself for how dumb it is when i type it out like that.
i mean we both know that "good, you?" is an automated response, and that i wouldnt be there (dr's office, pharmacy, hospital etc) if that answer were true .. but i give it to them anyway
I think, probably these people are doing it out of tradition. However, I have definitely asked an ill person how they are or what they've been up to, because I know physically you are not well, but you are more than your illness... so I want to give you the opening to talk if you want it.
i honestly think im the weird one in the situation more than anything. everyone has been so nice along the way, from nurses, techs, assistants, pharmacy people etc. i know they genuinely care and they are opening the door for friendly conversation, but im just sort of..guarded i guess. also the isolation ive imposed on myself as a result of some of these physical health problems has not helped. its been a huge blow to my self esteem, even just from the way i look now, which i never struggled with in my entire life.
im afraid to say anything other than "good, you?" out of fear of seeming like im fishing for sympathy - though i know thats all in my head and no one would think i am. this is the same reason im afraid to even post on support forums for various problems.
i dont think there is a better way to approach it, i think that im the problem and wish i could just kind of open up a bit to people. my dad is the only one that knows the extent of what ive been going through and he doesnt tell anyone because hes a lot like me.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 17:37:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I was a pharmacy tech and I have a chronic illness too. I was there to see what my options were, and I don't mind talking about your illness. I understand. I might look peppy and nice, but I'm dying inside.
I might look peppy and nice, but I'm dying inside.
how are you? :)
thats what i think a lot of customers/patients forget. theres a good chance that a lot of the people working behind the counter of pharmacies, doctors offices etc, also have health problems, mental and/or physical. if they could keep this in mind, maybe everyone would be just a little bit nicer.
Am in retail pharmacy. Its okay if you're not okay. You can tell me everything that's bothering you. I say I'm okay too, but I'm not either. Were all just human, and if you need a moment of genuine human connection, you would be surprised how much we understand.
Were all just human, and if you need a moment of genuine human connection, you would be surprised how much we understand.
thanks, that was really nice
i put all the blame on myself. im way too guarded and feel like i have to pretend im doing fine, even though its obvious im not. thats something i need to change.
Hey, just letting you know I work in a pharmacy and when we ask that question to our regulars we are genuinely asking. The pharmacist is pretty smart and can usually make suggestions to improve quality of life, or different medication to suggest to the doctor.
It might be different elsewhere, but we are the only pharmacy in a very small farming town so we know almost everybody and they actually tell us what is going on (the good and the bad).
part of me knows that what youre saying is 100% true, but the dumber part of me tells me that they dont care and theyre just going through the motions and im a burden to everyone serving me. thats the mental health side of things lying to me though.
sometimes they ask if i have any questions for the pharmacist and i'll say no (feeling like a burden as usual) even though i had a question before i even went in to pickup my script. stupid stuff
i live in a pretty populated area and use walmart so they have a ton of customers, but i usually show up an hour before close, or less. one of the techs told me a couple visits ago that she remembers my name because im always so pleasant and its a nice change compared to some of the other customers. that really made my day
the whole process still gives me anxiety and i hate when theres a line of people behind me while im trying to get my prescriptions and one respects anyones privacy, despite the signs and the techs telling people to wait behind the BIG RED LINE painted on the floor.
Can confirm. Walked in to see the same tech I got refills from last week. Fatigue level high, pain level hovering around a 7, having to go back on corticosteroids because it's the only option to get back to work.
The kind gentleman asks how I am. I calmly say, "I've been better. Autoimmune's a bitch." And smile.
Hey stranger! As a pharmacy cashier, I assure you your situation is not as uncommon as you may feel. (Not trying to diminish your problems at all, it's just that we won't treat you any differently.) It's not like I'm annoyed with you for coming to get your medicine. It's literally my job to help you. And as someone who's struggled with clinical depression and anxiety, and has tried my own handful of medication over the years, I'll offer sympathy as best I can. (Even though I know sometimes it means fuck all.) I understand if you don't want to tell me your life story or explain why you're feeling off, because I get that.
But please don't feel like you're a burden. Interacting with people going through tough times and from all walks of life is a very rewarding part of my work, personally.
And just to let you know, most pharmacies have a slightly different program/mode for the pick-up, where they can't see your full file. Just the prescriptions that are ready. Even if yours doesn't have that, please don't worry about having a long history and many doctors and shitty insurance, it's all par for the course. No professional will judge you for that. It's what we deal with everyday.
Also I don't really mind you "ranting" about that kind of stuff, as long as you're respectful to me and aren't holding up the line or anything.
I'm sorry I didn't mean to lecture you at all, or even type this much in the first place, just wanted to share my perspective.
just seeing the way some people treat the techs at the register makes me kind of sick. i dont understand why so many people want to make things worse by being negative to people just trying to help or doing their job. though i normally go within the last hour before close, to avoid lines and people hovering over my shoulder while im trying to pickup my scripts.
the mental health problems came shortly after (or got a lot worse) the physical health problems. a couple of the techs are so nice and i see them a couple times a week for the last almost 2 years now and i just want to have more than the "good, you?" conversation with them, but i just.. cant do it.
i do feel like a burden and i dont know why. i feel the same way at doctors appointments, tests, procedures or whatever. i have 3 different specialists writing prescriptions, some are changing every other month, theyre calling doctors and insurance for me, calling me to let me know its been denied etc. i know theyre getting paid and probably enjoy helping people, but i dont know why i still feel like a burden. my insurance sucks and i just hate that they have to do extra work because of it.
thanks for the post and thanks for caring about the patients and having an understanding of how some people feel. you read my mind on some of those points, especially the part about feeling like a burden, i never thought of it like that, but thats exactly how i feel every time i go.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:54:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
partially because its personal, but also because i dont want to start a contest. no one does. they just want to be normal. thats why i never open up about personal problems. not saying its the right way to deal with it, but thats how i am
Human brains are very bad at dealing with "something really bad is happening and there's nothing I can do." Doing nothing creates a great deal of stress and mental/emotional strain. Yes, they know it's probably not going to make the illness better, but being proactive, even in a useless direction, makes them feel mentally/emotionally a little better.
Thank you so much! I've been suffering from chronic pain for about 9 years (I'm 23). I'm extremely tired of pretending but any other option is even worse. Pretending is really hard for me and sometimes I feel really lost but after sharing or complaining I feel terrible, I perceive myself as a burden, I worry that people will think unfavourably about me. After all, nobody likes complainers or people who are serious all the time. It makes socializing really hard, because I'm dying inside, my back hurts so bad I cannot eat or breathe without problems, yet everyone expects me to be happy and smiley. In my case, even my sister said that she doesn't want to hear my complaints, so I have to pretend whenever we meet or speak. It sucks because at the end of the day, no matter how supporting your close ones are, every chronically ill person is alone in pain, despair, suffering and hopelessness. I try really hard to think positively but I cannot ignore sharp pain and constant fatigue. My perception is probably flawed but I really lack any motivation to do anything, to live. That's why your post is very important to me and I think you've managed to describe reality very accurately.
You're welcome. Chronic illness is a third person in any relationship, familial, friendship, romantic or otherwise. My husband went to see a therapist when we got together so he could get tips and advice on how to cope with my illness and how to live with me without constantly feeling the crushing weight of it.
It took a long time for me to come to terms with my condition and the limitations of medicine right now and when I feel frustrated and helpless, I still take a step back and remind myself of the facts.
I wish I had some magic words to tell you to make it easier to cope with, but sadly that's not the world we live in. The best I can do is tell you one of the strategies I use. I have knitting and colouring books for adults as meditative hobbies that help me focus on something other than my sickness as well as relax because stress makes everything feel worse.
I hope you have good doctors that are working with you despite not having answers.
I've never perceived my illness as a third person but you're absolutely right, it does indeed feel like that. I'm not in any romantic relationship right now but in the future I'll certainly look at it from this perspective. I'm glad you went through some kind of counseling and that you have support.
Your strategies are great! I like them too, in case of knitting you can also make something useful, so it certainly helps to feel better. Sometimes I draw mandalas or doodle, basically anything just to keep my mind occupied. I'm working on being less concerned with my condition. Even though it's hard, I try to see the positive sides of my life and I believe that it'll make me a better person. Sometimes I think I may be too young or not mature enough and some realizations will come with time.
I'm really grateful for your kind and wise words. Your comments really helped me and I wish you a lot of strength.
My last piece of advice for you is to document how you're feeling two or three times a day. It sounds like your condition flares up at times and in my experience, if I go to the doctor on a good day, I say things have been feeling better, even if the actual trend is the opposite (and the reverse if I go on a bad day, obviously) and you'll get the most out of your doctor visits if you have more objective information about your condition and how medication/lifestyle changes/stressors/etc are affecting you.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 17:40:45 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
You're welcome. I'm so sorry that you have similar problems.
The more I think about this, the more I realize that this is a vicious cycle and I can totally understand the connection between chronic illness and mental disorders. The mix of pretending, suffering and guilt is sometimes too much to handle. Everyone says: "just be yourself" but in our case it's not socially acceptable. It's also tricky to be self-confident, fun and interesting while being miserable for most of the day.
At this point, I've adapted this happy, carefree attitude to such an extent I wasn't able to open up to my therapist without smiling like an idiot. It's great that you have people you can talk to and I hope you'll get all the support you need. If you feel bad about sharing with family and friends maybe try to find a support group or a good therapist?
It's really hard to say something new or wise about the situation. Close relationships should be built on trust and support but no family member or friend is obliged to care as much as we do. To be completely honest, sometimes I'm really angry because my family has the right to be tired of my bullshit, yet I'm expected to endure my pain, side effects, fatigue and mental issues patiently and silently. That's not fair.
Recently I've been looking for some ways to feel better. Writing a journal and meditation are my two personal faves. Meditation is incredibly relaxing and helps with clearing one's mind. I hope you'll find something that will make you happier.
[deleted] · 12 points · Posted at 17:04:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yep, I've heard
Scientists don't know how the brain works, and you can't trust doctors
You don't know how it will effect you in 20-30 years
Big Pharma blah blah blah conspiracy horse shit
You shouldn't have to rely on medicine
Take this bs natural remedy or go hiking in the woods
My response to these
Yeah, but they are still learning, and they know more about the brain than you or I. I'll at least try with experts who want me to get better
I couldn't care less how it will effect me in 20-30 years. I'm barely at the point where I want to be alive for 1 more second. I'll take 20-30 years of actual happiness no matter what happens at the end. It could be certain death, and I'd be on board.
Yes, that fiendish Big Pharma, giving me medicine that tricks me into enjoying life.
I shouldn't have to rely on medicine, yes. Would be nice if I didn't, but it would be nice if cripples didn't have to rely on wheelchairs, either. They do, though, and that's life.
If hiking in the woods cures your depression, you weren't depressed.
I was confused by your comment at first, but I get it now. I was talking more specifically about chronic conditions unrelated to mental health (autoimmune conditions, chronic pain from a past injury and even cancers that are killing you particularly slowly, though still killing you nonetheless), but it definitely applies to clinical depression and other mental health issues, too.
As I've said in other comments, humans brains are pretty shitty and they're not good at accepting 'there's nothing you can do,' which hurts the people suffering from conditions and makes it more difficult for healthy people to understand. Their squishy organic brains just can't grasp that a different squishy organic brain needs outside chemicals to function properly.
I hope you have a support network and are working to feel better.
flat5 · 7 points · Posted at 17:12:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yep. I was a medical pseudo-science crusader, until I developed a chronic back pain problem, for which "real science" basically has zero good answers.
So, I'm willing to throw $50 at an acupuncturist or chiropractor now. Yes, I realize it probably won't help. Yes, I realize the practitioner is probably preying on a desperate person. But I don't care. It might help.
If you have really good health insurance, I suggest seeing if you can get massages partially or fully covered. (I know some plans do cover this for pain AND stress AND anxiety) If not, maybe see if there's a massage therapy school near you to get cheap-ish student massages. It doesn't take away the pain, but it makes most of the rest of you feel better.
flat5 · 4 points · Posted at 17:27:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
i'm looking over a counter of failed products that promised to make me feel better and all of the money i wasted and you're right - I knew none of these snakeoils would work but i bought them anyway just to feel like there's a chance
I have a chronic pain condition and I would pop aspirin on the regular (well below "maximum dosage" levels. Think one or two a day), but since my problem is autoimmune and my immune system is in the shitter, I'm now deathly allergic to all NSAIDs. Yay.
So I don't touch the snakeoil anymore.
(I don't know how common developing an allergy like that is, but my allergist wasn't surprised.)
Meh. I just kind of stopped caring about feeling like shit constantly. Maybe it's a tolerance for pain or something, but for me at least, its not so bad.
That said, I have to take like fucking 16 different meds per day, and that shit eats a hole in my pocket every month. It would suck less if I didn't have to pay for suffering. -.-
It's definitely not ubiquitous. People with random and/or unpredictable flare ups have it worse because you can't "get used to" something that's only there sometimes. It also very much depends on whether or not they have a support system in place and countless other factors.
I'm glad you've been able to acclimate. My post is more about trying to help people understand the irrational behavior that can stem from a chronic illness rather than asserting that a chronic illness will create these behaviors.
Bingo. It's driving me absolutely nuts, and the worst part is the lack of control and predictability. I tried being "perfect" with my diet and lifestyle, in a desperate and miserable attempt to bargain with my body, but I still got flares and suffered. So now I focus on trying to maximise my quality of life and doing what feels good. But I still suffer. I feel trapped in my body, I feel terrified of the future and inevitable gristly death that awaits. It feels like I am swimming in a lake of shit with no shore in sight. Sure, there are occasional diamonds, but fuck, it's still a lake of shit and I will eventually drown. I'm so tired of swimming and just want to have some dignity in how it ends.:(
I can't tell if you're saying that chronically sick/miserable people don't understand how to evaluate the effectiveness of a cure or remedy, or if you're saying people who are not chronically ill/miserable don't understand the mentality of people who are.
People who are not sick don't understand the mentality.
Though the chronically ill can definitely lose sight of what is/isn't effective. I've heard countless different conspiracy theories about the origins of my condition (the most baffling said it was caused by fluoridated water), about how there is a cure but [insert here] is hiding it and obviously the infinite bullshit "cures."
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 17:39:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No, thankfully, what I have is less severe. I have a poor quality of life, but I'm not expected to have a shorter life span or to be permanently crippled, which I believe are possible with MS? Sorry, I don't know much about it. I try not to go looking for trouble, since my official diagnosis gets hazy and it is autoimmune.
[deleted] · 4 points · Posted at 17:49:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's all good. I'm only expected to have maybe 5 less years than most, but the possibility of being wheelchair bound is pretty high. Honestly I don't really care too much anymore (thanks medication!!) but if I do I'm totally decking out my hover round with some flames/racing stripes because... you know... it makes you go faster.
This is 100% accurate. My sister has one of the best grasps of scientific evaluation and knowledge of biology of everyone I know, but she still fell for the essential oil charade when she was diagnosed with a chronic illness. Now she runs a Facebook group dedicated to finding essential oils that will help with just about anything(nothing) in the hope that one of them will help her not feel like shit five days out of the week.
xammy0 · 3 points · Posted at 18:05:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I live with chronic pain and sickness. Can confirm. Edit: live, not love.
I so do totally agree and thank you for such an eloquent explanation. I have several aches, pains, and general crappy feelings going on all the time and I just have to smile. It gets tough.
I run into the chronic illness paradox. I want people to know and acknowledge that I'm sick and that means I have limitations, but at the same time I don't want to act or look sick because that's just depressing.
Yes the whole idea of looking and acting the way I REALLY feel isn't all the fun an idea to me either. But sometimes I wish people would just say "Oh she's just having a rough day" and not "She's lazy". Most people I know know what's going on, but I also worry they just don't realise how serious it is because I've always got ny "brave face" on. My dad once said that we all have our own cross to bear, and this is just mine. Although I'd never wish this on anyone, kinda helps to ease the pain knowing I'm not alone.
Yossi25 · 3 points · Posted at 18:55:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Having and knowing people with tinnitus, we really have tried just about everything.
Oh god, tinnitis is one of my worst fears v___v I love music so much. I'm really thankful I always listened to music very quietly on my headphones as a kid.
People with chronic illness are 100% pretending to be okay when you see them. They're not. They're sick. They're miserable.
This applies to depression much of the time.
When I first started to tell people I was suffering from depression, people said that I didn't seem depressed. Someone said this who I had cancelled four of the five previous times we had been due to meet, either individually or in a group. You don't see people at their worst, you only see them at their best, pretending to be better than they are. Even if you ask them to honestly tell you what it is like, it is not something that can be put into words and, they probably don't want to tell you if they are having suicidal thoughts or self harming.
I was at a course about mental health recently and people were really shocked at the idea that someone might cut themselves because the pain is a relief from how they are feeling. That is why I did it briefly (before moving on to something else that I could do that caused me more pain with less messy injury when I found the hassle of trying to get my arm to stop bleeding all the time too much).
People always assume others are more similar to them than they really are.
mu_on · 3 points · Posted at 17:52:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Likewise, most people would be surprised at how well the body heals itself when (and this doesn't apply to the most severe cases obviously): A) you stop thinking doctors can save you B) you stop worrying C) you don't force a timeframe for getting better. I have had multiple types of chronic pain that have finally gone away for the most part simply from giving up on doctors and just not worrying. The body is far more intelligent than we are it seems.
I think it's important to continue to see doctors, even if you're not stressing/worrying yourself about it. Modern medicine doesn't have enough information on chronic pain and your relief could be an important data point that contributes to another person feeling better quicker.
But dwelling on your chronic pain is definitely (at the very least) very highly correlated with feeling pain more acutely.
mu_on · 2 points · Posted at 18:05:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Modern medicine doesn't have enough information on chronic pain and your relief could be an important data point that contributes to another person feeling better quicker.
My biggest problem is that EVEN WHEN doctors don't have the answers, they pull one out of a hat. Because that's how they get paid. And a lot of times that causes more harm than it fixes. This is another thing most people don't understand, actually.
Wow, I'm sorry you had to deal with that. My specialists absolutely just send me home with no answers and no new medication most of the time. I go in, answer a ton of questions, get poked and tested and then sent home. No wonder you stopped going in that case.
mu_on · 1 points · Posted at 18:38:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Usually it's "try this medicine!". When it doesn't work.. "I can't help you so go to this specialist", "Ok, I'm the specialist, now let's do all these tests"... thousands of dollars later... "Hmm, not seeing anything that could cause it. Let's do some more tests" "found something, could be related to pain, surgery might fix this!" Has surgery, isn't better... then they say "not sure, why don't you try acupuncture then get back with me".
The whole healthcare industry is built on peoples impatience and ignorance of their own bodies. I'd say for the vast majority of cases that people go to the doctor, the body will heal itself if just left alone, though it may take time. But our society doesn't allow us to take rests, so we pop some pills and go to work. I also don't believe in pseudo-science. I'm just saying this science as we know it is more "pseudo" and ineffective than we tend to realize. It's not apparent, because it's an all-pervasive industry that can handle anything. ANY pain and people immediately say, "go to the doctor"
Yeah, a lot of people fall into the trap of believing medicine has an answer to everything. Shitty monkey brains, man.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:10:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I guess I am weird because I have been chronically sick for my entire life and I never considered this. The most I would be willing to do is go to Europe since they have may have different procedures not yet approved here in the US. But I would never defect to pseudo medical bs because it could make the problem worse.
I don't think it's weird. There are a lot of factors that lead to it. Because of how I'm sick, I am extremely aware of how dangerous it is for me to try pseudo-medication since OTC meds have already shown themselves to be deadly.
I've done yoga and massage therapy and a variety of normal-ish diets (just stuff like replacing white bread with wheat and white rice with brown, etc, etc) and they made me feel better, but just because I was healthier/more relaxed in general.
I just think it's important to understand how some people can fall into these traps because otherwise how can you help them out? You can't logic someone out of a belief they didn't logic themselves into, after all. So you have to address the issues that lead to that belief.
The placebo effect is real. My bf has GERD and it's bad. Anxiety makes it worse, and wouldn't you know that getting sick makes him anxious? It's a vicious cycle. I once gave him some dissolvable pill for gas and told him it was for nausea. It works a lot of the time, and it won't make anything worse for him, healthwise. I know it's wrong, but I just want him to be okay. I think he knows now, but its still working so his doctor wrote him a prescription.
His problem is waking up with it. I grind my teeth in my sleep, he apparently is so anxious his body is just waiting for him to wake up so it can puke. We've tried a lot of different things to reduce stress, but living long distance, while working and attending college makes it tough to even get a daily schedule set. Thank you for the suggestion, though, I'll look into it!
Ugh that is rough! And you're absolutely right, having a variable sleep schedule is definitely piling on the stress. Hopefully things calm down a bit and he can get on a regular schedule in addition to other things. I wish you guys the best.
For now, I'm focused on him maintaining his weight, and hopefully putting more on (he dropped 35lbs he couldn't afford before he got diagnosed) until we graduate. Once were able to live together, his health improving is going to be a main goal, whether he likes it or not!
If you have a chronic illness and feel this way, or know someone who does, please seek psychiatric help.
People with chronic illness are 100% pretending to be okay when you see them. They're not. They're sick. They're miserable. The only reason they pretend is that acting as poorly as you feel is depressing and debilitating and it's the only part of their life they can control.
As someone who has had crippling chronic pain for seven years, I can say this is not, and should not be, true. If it is for you, that's okay. That's understandable, and it is not your fault, but you need to look for help with feeling depressed.
Despite pain or suffering, you can still be happy.
This is true, I was exaggerating mostly because a lot of people have invisible disabilities and confirmation bias (among other things) makes them feel as if they're constantly being told they "look healthy" when they feel like their stomach is turning inside out or like their leg is going to fall off.
Several of the other replies mentioned it hitting home with them and what I wanted was to project to people who don't have experience what the subjective feeling is.
What i find most exhausting about being subject to chronic pain/discomfort, is that people who aren't chronically sick get really uncomfortable when you talk about chronic pain. And to an extent, i can understand being uncomfortable at learning of someone else's disadvantages. For example, when people discuss racism, i tend to get uncomfortable because I'm white and haven't really experienced racism to the extend of a black/african american, asian, or native.
That being said, when people berate me for not being positive on my chronic pain pisses me off to no end. I cannot be happy and positive about all the joints from the waist down aching. I cannot be happy and positive as i notice more and more pain in my upper body after years of just having pain in my hips and knees. I understand that it makes people uncomfortable but instead of trying to project your disposition on me, you could maybe try to understand why i am the way i am. Maybe learn some about chronic illnesses. Maybe just let me be in a shitty mood for a little bit because its cathartic to be pissy for a day. Maybe I'm just naturally kind of a pessimistic person and would like to be a pessimist in peace, but i would appreciate it if people would stop telling me to smile more and go outside instead of staying in and taking the medications my doctors gave me. I guess, id like to see some understanding -not pity or sympathy- for my illness.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 17:53:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Bullshit. You don't magically become a dunce when your sick. I realized long ago that magical essences and oils and herbal supplements don't do shit for me . You are just defending poor decision making. Having a chronic illness pushes me to find actual methods to live and work with it.
Angry mood aside ... a lot of that comes from having a good support system. Be honest with your family about what your going through, more people empathize than you'd guess.
That's not what I'm trying to say, though. Not at all. My assertion is that people see their chronically ill loved one buy snakeoil and don't understand why an otherwise intelligent person would do such a thing.
In some cases, it is that the person is simply fooled by misinformation, but in many cases the person knows the snakeoil won't help academically but believes the action of "doing something" will make them feel better.
I'm not asserting it's necessarily a good or rational decision that the sick person is making, I'm saying that most people don't understand why they're making that decision and without understanding, we can't change anything.
I don't buy the snakeoil, either, but if I don't know why my friends with my condition do, I can't talk them out of it.
elleoof · 3 points · Posted at 18:16:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's not a matter of magically becoming a dunce. You're just more willing to try unlikely solutions when you're desperate.
Trying a gluten-free diet because a few people on an internet message board said it helped their condition isn't a poor decision if you're exhausted and in pain all of the time, your injectable medicine gives you awful panic attacks and giant welts, and doctors don't even fully understand how your disease works.
[deleted] · -3 points · Posted at 16:19:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't mean to say that "chronic illness = you're depressed forever" or anything like that. What I mean to say is that having a chronic condition, especially one with little to no treatment (and especially if the symptoms are random or otherwise unpredictable), can create mental/emotional strain that is somewhat alleviated by taking an action that might* make you feel less sick.
*Almost definitely won't, however in some cases they do for the wrong reason. (Example being a diet change that doesn't help your illness in specific, but makes you healthier in general)
Also, I wasn't trying to assert that the behavior is rational. Sports fans wearing their "lucky jersey" on game day isn't rational, either, but doing it makes their stupid monkey brain happy. A major reason it's difficult for healthy people to understand is precisely because it's irrational.
It's by no means ubiquitous. Plenty of people, like apparently you, have chronic conditions and get through life just fine. I think healthy people would be shocked to learn how many people around them are suffering from chronic conditions. However, it's very common to hear people talking about how confused they are because friend/family member with a chronic condition bought x product that's obviously not going to help their condition.
Further, if a sick person is buying snakeoil to their actual detriment (too expensive, it's actually harmful, etc), a healthy person trying to help the sick person will have difficulty convincing them to stop if they don't understand why the sick person started in the first place.
Sometimes you can't mitigate the symptoms though. No amount of giving myself pep talks is going to make me able to do the things I used to be able to do. "A little extra effort " just lands me in bed for a week crying in pain and wishing I could go back and undo it.
On the same token, responding to a respectfully held forum/panel with screaming incoherent protest rather than engaging with someone you disagree with is also a concession of your argument.
God, where I work at is the worst for this... In ten years this company has existed, they have never fired anyone. Literally, no one. They brag about this too.
No, not because they are that good at hiring. See, if they fire you, in most cases they have to pay unemployment for a set amount of time based on how long you worked, reason for firing, etc. However, if they "no longer need your position", eliminate it and then furlough you, they pay nothing. And, the best part? It's completely legal, so they aren't doing anything wrong, right?
Now, you may wonder "but what if it's an important position? Like accounting?" Well, in that case, after fir- I mean, furloughing you, they hire a "contractor" to "outsource" the job. It's more efficient than having it in house, right? Well, of course, you can't do accounting from a distance, so might as well set you up an office in the building so you can work. And then, surprise! six months later, we like you so much we created an accounting position just for you! You're hired!
Does the same go for claiming freedom of belief? Like, if your belief (religious or otherwise) has so little merit that it wouldn't stand up on its own, is citing freedom of belief the ultimate concession that what you are practicing is so insane / pointless / ignorant / selfish / harmful that the most compelling thing you can say for your position is that it's not literally illegal to do so.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 18:29:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's not, though. It's the principle that I can have my opinion no matter how badly you disagree with it. To rephrase it, "the most compelling thing I can convince you of is that I'm legally expressing my opinion".
There's a reason that whenever some mom who's never driven outside Columbus decides that video games need to be controlled or that hijabs should be banned, people point to free speech. Because she's too convinced to listen to anything else.
To rephrase it, "the most compelling thing I can convince you of is that I'm legally expressing my opinion".
That means the same thing though, you're not actually defending your position.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:48:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You're not defending your position to that person, because your views are different on a fundamental level. OP implied that there was no defence, when it's closer to "there's no defence that you would accept"
you're saying that the most compelling thing you can say for your position is that it's not literally illegal to express.
A convincing defense might exist, but if your only argument is free speech, you don't have a convincing defense.
You make a good point though. If you're arguing with someone and they trot out the free speech defense, it doesn't automatically mean all of their prior arguments are null and void. It just means they've been rejected, valid or not.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:47:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not quite. If it's gotten to the point where I have to remind you that free speech is a thing, it's not the most compelling thing I can say; it's the only thing I can say that you might actually listen to. And even that's not a guarantee; nowadays you have people flying into a triggered rage at the mere mention of the phrase.
And that supporting restrictions on free speech towards the things you hate, increases the likelihood of restrictions on free speech towards the things you support.
[deleted] · 16 points · Posted at 16:53:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I was having a conversation over in /r/Europe about this yesterday. In some European countries you can be jailed for doing a Nazi salute in public... Yet when I make this point I'm a Nazi sympathizer lol ok
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 18:30:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
ythl · 1 points · Posted at 19:24:11 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I lived in Glan-Münchweiler, Germany for 2 years. My dad was stationed at Ramstein AB. I lived in Italy for 5 years, 3 in Pinetamare, near Naples. My dad was stationed at a nearby NATO base in Pozzuoli. I also spent 2 years in Rome, Terni, Prato, and Sassari as a missionary. I'll prove it. I took a picture of myself holding out a book of mormon to the pope while I was a missionary: http://imgur.com/a/bOuZJ
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 18:56:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No I have not. What's your point?
regendo · 1 points · Posted at 21:34:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The nazi salute being illegal is a bit of an extreme example—while it makes a lot of sense in some cases, the salute is of course often only used ironically or jokingly. I don't think there currently are exceptions for this (there are exceptions for educational purposes, so your history teacher can demonstrate it in context) but perhaps there should be.
The core belief behind all of those restrictions is that some ideas are just too dangerous to even give them a platform. Rhetoric can spread like wildfire, and especially Germany is dedicated to never allowing nazi-like rhetoric to spread again. Suppressing these beliefs might not help to convince those few who are already convinced about them, but it will stop them from spreading those beliefs to the general public and actually becoming a wild-spread issue.
Every day you can see misinformation spread on the internet and once it has, it's difficult to bring people back to the more reasonable view (just think of any time anyone's name has been published as a potential criminal in some investigation and how even after they were revealed to be innocent the public's opinion of them remained ruined forever). While this isn't that important in less serious cases, Germans strongly believe that in more serious cases like anything nazi-like, it's just not acceptable to let these beliefs spread and to let them be normalized in the minds of the people.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 21:57:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
While I agree with almost all of your points, I have to disagree with the fact that it is morally right for a government to decide how it's people should think.
You said yourself, in the modern age the internet allows information to spread freely, making the effect of these laws even more useless and backwards.
Or you could have laws that don't allow hate speech that don't infringe on anything other than hate speech. Works here and it's the right thing to do.
It's not infringing in anything other than hate.
[deleted] · 6 points · Posted at 18:55:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well that just puts us in a bubble. "You can think anything you want except for X" isn't freedom. Don't you think a better solution would be proper education and social pressures rather than laws forbidding a certain thought?
No it means you can think anything you like, you just can't spout hate. It's easy to do. Along with it you teach kids tolerance and show them the atrocities that can happen when people hate someone because they're different.
You still get racists and bigots and assholes but they just don't have a right to spew their shit.
[deleted] · 4 points · Posted at 19:29:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah but don't you see how the same argument can be seen from the other side? Take North Korea, for example. "You can think whatever you want, but you'll be imprisoned for spewing imperialist American bullshit"? Obviously, in the western world's case it is preventing hate speech, but it's an overreach of government control and a slippery slope.
No it's not the same at all. And isn't the other side of any argument. Hate speech is attacking someone or something it's not criticism or having an opinion or opening a dialogue.
For example I tell you you're a fucking idiot because yoy can't understand a basic concept is fair enough. That's nothing to do with hating you because of your race or gender or whatever. But saying you should be put to death because you are gay would be. That's an attack.
[deleted] · 4 points · Posted at 19:52:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Can I ask why exactly you think it's different? Ideologies don't come up out of thin air, this is deep-rooted hate that is brought on by social pressures that shift our point of view.
Let's look at this without labels. One group of people with ideology x and another with ideology y. In a modern day western country, you can go to jail for years for simply doing to a harmless gesture that shows your support for ideology y, while if you were to do the same thing with ideology x. It's hypocritical.
Now, hate-speech is completely different as it targets groups of people and can be used to incite violence. Throwing up a Nazi salute, yelling "Heil Hitler," even flying a confederate flag are all harmless forms of showing support for a (granted, horrible) ideology.
But criticism, having an opinion and opening dialogue can be classified as hate speech by the people who don't consider that opinion to be permissible.
What if I object immigration to my small homeland that is originally founded as the national state of Finns, on the grounds that I don't want our nation to be replaced. Someone will inevitably call that hate speech against ethnic groups other than my own, but it is criticism against immigration policy, it is having a political opinion and it's even opening a dialogue with anyone I might express this opinion to, so classifying it as illegal hate speech would clearly infringe on my right to express my opinions.
What if I express an opinion that we should forbid building minarets (such a law exist in Switzerland)? Someone will inevitably call it hate speech against Muslims, but again it is an opinion, too, and all that stuff, so classifying it as illegal hate speech would again clearly infringe on my right to express my opinions.
What about jokes that could be considered offensive to some group of people? Are they considered hate speech? If so, people's right to express their sense of humour is infringed.
You try to make it sound simple, but it isn't. There are already points in the law that forbid flat out telling someone to commit a crime. They cover the blatant incitements for violence. If you're going to introduce hate speech laws, of course they're going to be more vague and there will be significant room for interpretation.
Demonikuski's opinions sound pretty hateful. S/he is espousing ideas that are actively against diversity of peoples and culture, especially against those of the Middle East who are predominantly Muslims. I bet s/he secretly thinks of minarets as "terrorist towers."
S/he sounds like a Finn supremacist espousing racial nativist language and trying to defend it by hiding behind freedom of speech. As a non-Finn who enjoys the aesthetics minarets, especially in Mughal architecture, I find his/her opinions rather closed-minded and bordering on hateful. I no longer feel comfortable visiting a place like Finland if it is going to have people like Demonikuski arguing that I'm not good enough to even live there. /s
Key here is the clarification that the category of actions that is "initiating violence" does not include the act of making vague, unsubstantiated threats about what might happen in the long-term future.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:37:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'll add a qualification of fine "within reason." There are some things we all disagree with, but not universal truths. We should be willing to interact with someone with differing views. Obviously, being a racist in any form is outside of that within reason caveat.
jivow · -1 points · Posted at 17:56:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
but criminal repercussions or violence is not permissible.
Why not?
You can literally make people die with only your words e.g. by:
convincing a person with mental issues to commit suicide
convincing a person to kill someone
Or to look ot it in the other way - if you cause small discomfort to someone by punching them in a muscle tissue (so there is not even a bruise) you can get convicted, but if you destroy someone's life by talking to them (e.g. harassing and destroying their self-worth) it should be ok?
In the cases that you are bringing up, the punishment would not be for the speech but for responsibility for the death. If you're egging on a suicidal person, knowing that your actions are likely to result in their death, then you are partly responsible for their death.
Not really. Hate speech is speech which attacks a person or group on the basis of attributes such as race, religion, ethnic origin, sexual orientation, disability, or gender. I mean it's straight forward.
So any criticism of Islam or Christianity and go to jail? Any criticism of men? And if you implemented this law in the U.S., you'd be giving the power to the Trump administration.
Criticism isn't the same as hate. Not agreeing with something or someone is not the same as hating them. Having an opinion isn't hate. But attacking someone for their differences is. Honestly it's not difficult.
They act like if you disagree with "PUNCH NAZIS" then you must actually be a Nazi. I'm not saying I don't want to punch a Nazi- I'm just saying that punching people you disagree with doesn't really help your cause. It's better to punch them verbally with sound logic.
aeyamar · 1 points · Posted at 18:52:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Amusing, but even if the Hitler escaped conspiracies were true, I think my point still stands that the majority of Germans gave up on Nazism once they were defeated in WWII
Most Germans weren't part of the Nazi party outside of needing to be in it for jobs or protection from the government. Any with culpability that didn't flee were sentenced to jail, many if not all were jailed in Berlin at that prison the 4 allies took turns running.
No it didn't, they took over an entire country and killed off a minority population. They only got put back in their place when they invaded other countries.
aeyamar · 2 points · Posted at 18:34:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
He means other countries meeting the Nazis with violence "punching" is what got Germany to give Nazism up
Solgud · 4 points · Posted at 18:52:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't think other countries "punched" Germans for their Nazi ideology or even for trying to exterminate minorities, but rather their invasion of other countries.
aeyamar · 2 points · Posted at 18:57:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Nazi expansionism was inextricably linked to their supremacist ideology. They believed the Germans deserved to be a great nation and needed lebensraum (living space) to achieve this. They decided the natural thing to do was to seize the land from the peoples they viewed as lesser. Their plan was essentially to take over Eastern Europe cleanse it of its inferior inhabitants (Jews, Slavs, Romani, etc) and in so doing make the Aryan German state as great as they imagined their race to be.
Solgud · 3 points · Posted at 19:27:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not refuting that, just saying that if they didn't invade other countries no other countries would have been punching Nazis. And they would have been punching them no matter their ideology if they were invading other countries for other reasons.
aeyamar · 1 points · Posted at 19:37:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Hard to say. The full on genocide ramping up in peacetime probably would have at least triggered some action (especially from Russia since they intended to target Slavic people), though with the other allies generally wanting to avoid another continental war their involvement might have been more limited. I think the why they were met with violence though is irrelevant to the fact that the violence they were met with worked.
Rhetoric agaisnt evil ideas is not just for those who hold such ideas. It's not just them you are trying to dissuade from faulty and evil logic, it is also everyone who heard your conversation. If a kid saw you punch some random white guy on the street, he won't know why, he will just know that you did something wrong. Logical arguments rebutting evil ideology reinforces the idea that no one should have those opinions and no one should take them in the future.
There is also an argument to be made that, by calmly debating Nazism, you are granting it legitimacy in the eyes of onlookers because you're treating it with respect. It's always a good thing to teach children about its evils, but debating it like any other political difference can also be harmful. If you take the tone of a debate between "taxes should be raised" and "taxes should be lowered" and apply it to one between "I respect all people" and "the Jews should be rounded up and burned alive" that same child will not understand the radically different standpoints in the debate and see it as though those two things should be treated equally: after all, the grown ups all seem to treat them that way.
Merediv · 18 points · Posted at 18:09:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think the main problem is by punching a Nazi, or using any other forceful method, you are escalating the confrontation. While their views may be horrible and in no way defensible, you lose the moral high ground and, in a way, become the bad guy yourself.
To use the WW2 example, we didn't attack the Nazis for saying things we didn't like, we attacked them in response to their acts of physical aggression.
Basically, respond to verbal arguments and hate speech with words, and respond to physical threats and acts of violence with self defence. Escalating conflict is never a good means to a stable end.
The moral high ground is all well and good until inaction against a dangerous group gets people killed. The problem may not be solved just by punching them, but sure as Hell won't be solved by kind words and tolerating them, either.
And yet there is a time and a place for that inaction to become action. We still very much live in a country where you are innocent until proven guilty lets not forget that.
And thats the reason we have hate crime laws. The most anyone can do with out us actually turning into a police state is to put these a holes on a watch list, set up a police task force to infiltrate their more radical elements and look for evidence of actual crimes committed. Other wise if you start rounding people up for saying stuff you become that which you fight against.
Updating your hate speech laws would certainly help. In most of the rest of the Western world, countries have laws that prohibit publicly stating that religious or ethnic groups should be persecuted or harmed. In Canada, for example, you aren't allowed to advocate genocide for any identifiable group and can be sent to prison for doing so.
On the other hand, there's something to be said about people who consider more important to keep the moral high ground over saving other people's lives...
On the other hand, there's something to be said about people who consider more important to keep the moral high ground over saving other people's lives...
On the other hand, there's something to be said about people who consider more important to keep the moral high ground over saving other people's lives...
How does punching someone show anyone that an ideology is wrong?
The only reason this is a discussion is because we have ignored Nazism and white supremacy in America. Now more than ever, any notions of legitimacy must be dismissed to prevent any more impressionable people from joining.
Besides, your argument about giving legitimacy to evil ideas by logically rebutting them, only stands when very little people support those ideas.
It's not the number that supports them, It's the audience that hears it. If we start broadcasting to the world the idea that the way to combat Nazism is to debate it in the same manner we would any other political ideology, we paint a picture in which it's implied that it's as valid an ideology as anything else. Presenting something in the same context as something else conveys that the two things are similar.
The number of people who do support it does matter because that is thr obly instance where ignoring them, like you suggest, would be a succesful way to prevent those people from gaining any traction and legitimacy.
Also, how is leaving these ideas unchallenged better than logically shooting them down? It's not like any normal person can't find them at their local library or on the internet. Hell the YouTube comment section is full of it. Logically addressing these ideas shows those who are listening why it is wrong. They will find out about those ideas no matter what, atleast when they are exposed to it, they will see my voice and many others telling them why it is evil and illogical.
When I say their numbers don't matter, I specifically mean right now, before they gain anymore traction. And it's not like you'll be banned from logically shooting them down, but that isn't enough to practically suppress the spread of Nazism. The reason you can't defeat a Nazi's convictions with logic is because they don't believe what they do because they've come to a logical conclusion, they believe because they've been indoctrinated into the ideology. Their beliefs are based in emotion and a feeling of victimisation. Those people who will be susceptible to Nazi exploitation and indoctrination aren't people you can convince to to stay away from Nazism by providing them with a well-reasoned argument, because that's not the part of them that is preyed upon by Nazis. The best way to prevent the spread of Nazism is to suppress them, slander their beliefs, demonise them in the eyes of the public, and prevent legitimisation of them as a political movement.
You can't fight an enemy that denies all reason by appealing to their sense of rational thinking. They must be torn down at every level; have society turn against them at its core. Teach the children to hate them and the public to fear them, and they can't regain control.
Owl02 · 4 points · Posted at 18:51:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Violence also grants Nazis legitimacy, because it allows them to craft a victim narrative due to their rights being violated. This is one of the ways that the original Nazis solidified their power base in Germany.
Suppression of their ideology would be a more effective way to prevent its spread than giving them a political platform and telling people not to listen. By allowing them to gain power, we become complicit in their actions.
Owl02 · 1 points · Posted at 19:25:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Suppression doesn't work. In an environment of radical chaos such as that created by widespread political violence, the people demand radical order, and suddenly you wind up with fascists in charge because they promised to clean up the streets.
The best response is therefore to avoid and condemn said chaos, to keep the fascists on the fringes where they belong.
Also, you cannot kill an idea, its adherents will only be driven underground to radicalize further, etc. etc.
I never understood the idea of "pushing them underground will only make them stronger". If they can't organise publicly, they can't spread theirs views to gain a significant support base. By forcing them underground and decentralising them, they become scattered and unable to form a cohesive group large enough to cause significant damage. By allowing them to operate publicly, they can openly spread their ideology to more people and radicalise a larger number than they ever could in secret. Several groups of twenty hardcore Nazis are far less dangerous then one group of two hundred thousand Nazis of various levels of commitment. On top of that, by fracturing the Nazi groups into smaller ones, it becomes more likely that the individual groups will develop their own take on Nazism as a whole, making it more difficult to work together on a larger scale.
TL;DR: I understand that they'll get further radicalised, but there'll be fewer of them and in smaller groups, less able to work with each other.
In the open they can discuss their opinions, but we can also express ours which can make people consider both sides.
If you force them to hide behind closed doors it becomes an echo chamber with no opposing side, or worse it can be easier to radicalise vulnerable groups by having the 'right' opinion forced on them, while those who appear 'on their side' can tell them how oppressed they are, and how their opinion must be right because they are being oppressed.
It's a staple of brainwashing/indoctrination tactics to limit their exposure to sources of other opinions and to manipulate the target into feeling oppressed by a strawman opponent. Consider how similar it wold be to just shutting down a movement you feel is wrong.
It's better that they radicalise a smaller group of people than to let their message radicalise millions over several years by spreading it to the whole country. They will have a more devout group, but their limited numbers will prevent them from causing serious damage.
And as for the "hear both sides" argument, that goes both ways. As much as Nazis could hear our side of it, we can hear theirs. You can radicalise a much larger number of people when your message reaches everyone, especially when the population you're preaching to lacks the same ideological conviction that comes with being involved in a supremacist group.
None of what I'm suggesting is particularly novel. Canada's hate speech laws make it illegal and jailable to publically advocate for genocide and we don't seem to have that big a problem with Nazis. I've never actually noticed any serious Nazis groups up here.
"Hopefully everyone will continue mollycoddling my obvious fascistic tendencies and plans until it's too late to stop me. Oooh, I know, I'll yell a lot about "muh freedom" as a distraction."
-Lots and lots and lots of horrible people, including Nazis.
...fascistic tendencies and plans until it's too late to stop me.
Yeah... I'd take you antifa folks a little more seriously if your rhetoric wasn't even more absurdly alarmist than the white supremacists, "have to stop the Jews and darkies before it's too late for our country...".
There is exactly zero chance of a fascist take over of this country, and the "resurgence" of racism is nothing more than the desperate flailing and dying gasps of an extremely small minority holding an ideology that has LOST the culture war, and is lashing out at everyone/everything around them as they drown and sink into complete irrelevancy.
The ctrl-left's obsession with the alt-right extremists (and the conflicts created/magnified) has given the alt-rights a greater platform (national media spotlight) to spew their bullshit one last time before they get relegated to the historical record as nothing more than a shameful stain.
TL:DR The ctrl-left's attention has empowered the alt-right far beyond their meager representation in the actual public mind.
LE4d · 3 points · Posted at 18:57:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Eh, I'm more willing to lay blame on the people saying "kill some kinds of people" than the people saying "no dont". Or, if the problem is the amplification via news, then the people running those news outlets.
In what way is the person you're replying to an "antifa folk"? That's no better than calling every Trump supporter a fascist or a Nazi. I might have taken your argument seriously without that unnecessary bit of immaturity.
Uh... you do understand that antifa is their preferred nomenclature? Short for anti-fascist, and they wear it proudly? And /u/frogandbanjo was clearly identifying with those who feel they need to violently fight against the perceived threat of fascism from neo-nazis and alt-right extremists - because he/she claims that anyone who doesn't condone violence against them is "molly-coddling" them.
I strongly recommend that you re-read their post, and the post that they were replying to. If you still don't believe that /u/frogandbanjo is defending violence against fascists, I guess I'm at a loss as to how to make that more clear to you.
Robert Paxton says that fascism is "a form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation, or victimhood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy, and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion."[34]
This is a very good definition. No revision of language here.
An excellent shorthand interpretation. Unfortunately that definition is so broad i could point at any one example and it would merely be one cog in the machine that I call fascism. You could easily say it isn't fascism. When it is. Just a peice of it.
There's no way around the fact that any argument about what is and isn't fascism can become a lot like a conversation about what is and isn't art. Comes down to personal interpretation.
I think that silencing of speech behind any premise is an aspect of fascism. I think that forming monopolies on cultural forums of speech and enforcing wrongthink on those forums is an aspect of fascism.
Responding to force with reasonable force is reasonable. We didn't bomb the nazis because they were Nazis, we bombed them for doing shit.
It's not quite equivalent to using force on someone who's displaying an ideology. In that bombing a Nazi-manned Panzer during its attack on you is fully justifiable, and punching a person who's spouting an ideology is unjustifiably unethical.
Key here is the clarification that the category of actions that is ["instigating genocide"] does not include the act of making vague, unsubstantiated threats about what might happen in the long-term future.
I literally can't currently put it better than they did.
edit: sorry /u/flyingfences I misattributed it to my debate partner instead of you.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 18:01:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
F1nnyF6 · 2 points · Posted at 19:03:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Except that does happen/ has happened.
Best example is that case I read about recently where a black man basically single handedly dismantled a KKK group. How, might you ask? Not by going round punching them - that would have only made them believe stronger whatever bigoted shit about black people being like animals that they already thought.
Instead, he essentially befriended them all one by one. As soon as the thought "all black people are bad - except this guy" enters their head, it of course immediately began to make them question their beliefs as they weren't compatible; with the result being that they realised that their beliefs were wrong.
Ultimately, what Im saying here is that its much more important to challenge peoples bigoted ideas with debate and contrary examples. Most probably stem from a position of ignorance
I dunno man, I feel like we whooped the Nazis' asses pretty hard in WWII and made it clear that their views would not be tolerated in society. So in the same line of thought, I'm all for beating the shit out of neo-Nazis today.
[deleted] · 7 points · Posted at 18:05:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Fighting a nation is a lot different than fighting your bigoted neighbor. You can't apply the same methodology.
"We" was the entire industrial and military might of the United States fighting (with the support of our European allies) an oppressive nation-state that was committing crimes against humanity on a religious minority.
"We", today, would be 1 or 2 people assaulting people who've committed no crimes. We'd also have no legal justification to do so other than the fact that they're saying extremely inflammatory shit.
If they're in America, they'll play by our rules. We outnumber, outgun, and outsmart them. We don't need to resort to barbaric tactics and we will expunge cancerous parts of our society forcefully, with impunity, and within the laws we've put in place for ourselves.
[deleted] · -3 points · Posted at 16:00:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
They deleted their comment so here it is for the record:
/u/snakeinahouseofcats And no Nazis/Trump supporters ever listened to someone else's views with an open mind and then decided that they WERE wrong after all. They want to gather up and exterminate groups of people, fuck that. Fuck them up if you see them so they're too scared to leave their houses again, your grandfathers would be proud. If they weren't nazis then maybe they wouldn't have violence threatened against them. Once they start spewing hate speech and violence towards marginalized groups of others, they lose their chance to civil discussions and can get their heads bashed in for all I care.
Also here's my response, I typed it up but the comment got deleted:
Actually you're wrong, and simply Googling "former neo-nazi interview" will pull up many results of people who changed their ways. I can be very cynical, but I still believe that people can change their viewpoint. Especially with many of these neo-nazis, they are young and impressionable and may eventually realize what a stupid mistake they made.
The word 'nazi' is being watered down to the point that someone like Pewdiepie could be attacked and some people would think it's justified. Same with JonTron, the dude said some ignorant shit, but he's not running over protesters. This watering down also contributes to the alt-right's defense of actual nazis.
Even in this thread there are multiple examples of people saying "conservatives/fascists" and "Nazis/trump supporters" as if they're the same thing. It's ridiculous, and like you said it waters down the term. It doesn't hold as much weight anymore, and now more actual nazis are showing up than we've seen in years.
I don't have the political education or authority to define that, but crashing your car into a crowd of people because white people are the bestest, well we can firmly set the bar below that.
They also carried nazi flags, wore nazi uniforms and helmets, put nazi insignia on their shields and weapons, did nazi salutes, and chanted nazi chants!
I think we might be misunderstanding each other. I agree that the people at the rally were nazis. The point of the rally was freedom of speech, but it brought on an army of morons, just like most political events do, but someone fucking died because of white nationalism. As much as the far left ticks me off, I'll never stand for that.
This is going nowhere, thanks for your time though. Nice talk.
chutril · 5 points · Posted at 16:08:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I normally agree with this, but I feel like we've gone past the point where people listen to your arguments. Now they seem it ignore you and shout you down. So it's like sound logic doesn't work anymore.
Punching doesn't work and never has, and can possibly line up somebody to be a martyr. I just don't know what does work.
I mentioned this in another comment; I like to point to traditional debate. Your goal isn't really to convince your opponent, it's to convince the onlookers.
I will say though that is is incredibly difficult to do at a Nazi rally because you're right, they will shut you down with shouting. However, you can still try to convince the more weak-minded or impressionable in attendance. By going up and punching someone, you're just steeling the resolve of even the most non-committed skinhead there.
chutril · 1 points · Posted at 16:28:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Good point about the onlookers. I suppose it's like politics now even moreso than before.
I may not be right, but I just hope some way is found to stop people from falling for the Nazi ideology. It's sad and horrible that we're having this problem a mere 72 years after WW2. People truly do forget history (or outright deny it) so quickly.
nism0o3 · 0 points · Posted at 16:57:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think 90% or more of these Nazi's have no experience outside of their group and no education outside of high school. I doubt any of them traveled to other countries, met with people of different nationalities and thought, "Hey, these people all suck, I'm going to be a Nazi." Not to mention, I did most of my mental "growing up" during and after college. I became more open minded and educated myself on other cultures. I think these Nazis are in that same immature mindset of shitty high school kids, hating anything that's different or anything they don't understand.
[deleted] · 6 points · Posted at 16:15:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You're correct, but personally I don't believe "beating them to the punch" is the right way to go about it. AntiFa and the punch Nazi groups are also advocating directed violence, which makes them little better than those they oppose. Yes, if the Nazi scumbags are out there hurting people/committing violence, by all means break out the baseball bat. But if they are "peacefully" protesting/demonstrating, us instigating violence on them is just the wrong way to go about it IMHO.
[deleted] · -2 points · Posted at 16:26:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm not even saying you can, sadly. All I'm saying is that the violence against them (especially when it's instigated by us) isn't doing anything to change their minds, and is probably making them more resolved in their toxic ideology.
Debate is for the audience. You generally don't immediately convince the person you're arguing against, but it leaves an impression on bystanders who see the points and aren't too involved to reconsider their views.
Attacking someone physically usually does the opposite, pushing people towards sympathizing more with the person they saw get attacked.
Yeah I mean where is the public square where I can debate a Nazi? Will they remain intellectually honest? Thing about these rightists is that they refuse to remain intellectually honest. They will suggest that attempting to stop their genocide is just as bad as their genocide. Worse even. Because free speech.
True, but by bashing them over the head with knowledge isn't really intended to convince the staunchest of Nazi bigots. It's a war of ideologies, and if you can convince the weak minded followers before they fall for the Nazi lies, you have a victory.
nism0o3 · 0 points · Posted at 16:58:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I just think they are all scared because they don't understand and the frustrating part, they refuse to educate themselves.
Curious thing, the same could be said about a lot of people on the left. And there are a lot of videos showing right wingers trying to discus with them only for the leftist to shout insults and chant their slogans.
Ever heard of the horseshoe theory?
Wow, I was advocating nonviolence in a fb thread praising someone for punching out a white supremacist. That person turned an otherwise peaceful protest violent by throwing a punch at someone advocating violence. He may have gotten knocked out, but that white supremacist won that day. I was the nazi. I was reminded people fought wars against nazis. I reminded them that those were supposed to be the wars to end all wars.
Fuck it, let everyone duke it out. I'll be in the corner enjoying a few beers.
I am not saying they are not hippocrites. It is mind boggling that the side of "right" can't see that they also become hippocrites by responding in kind. I am not arguing for nazi-ism in any way. I am arguing against becoming what I hate. Violence is violence. As long ad they break no laws, they are sadly free to say whatever they want. As soon as you use their tactics against them and call for eradicating them and their viewpoint, how are we any different?
Im as left as they come, but responding to violence with violence back is self defense. Thats not hypocritical. Causing trouble at protest A because the other side caused trouble yesterday at protest 1? Sure. Seeing the other side get violent at a protest and responding in kind right there and then? Nah
I'll punch a nazi if they're legitimately being a nazi/violent/publicly hateful. But a white guy who doesn't think having dread locks is cultural appropriation? Not a nazi. People need to chill.
To come clean, I just wanna punch people sometimes. Nazis seem the most punchable.
elairah · 1 points · Posted at 18:07:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I can see it on both sides. On the one hand, trying to respond logically to someone who is actively denying your personhood, calling you a lower species, and maintaining that they are superior to you, is hard. You're being pretty seriously disrespected, and dignifying that kind of viciousness with a reasonable response can feel assbackwards. They aren't being reasonable, why should I? They're threatening violence to my person, why shouldn't I just hit them first?
On the other hand, responding to words with violence gets you painted as the unreasonable one. It can also pull the conversation away from "That guy's rhetoric is awful and insulting!" to "Hitting people is wrong!" And it seems like a great way to get a lawsuit for assault and battery.
That's a terrible rule to live by, and it's essential the same way Nazis see the world. I am superior group A and they are group B, rule 1 don't be group B or suffer death.
Well when group a wants everyone to be peaceful, and group b wants to kill everyone not in group b, there's bound to be some tension somewhere between the two.
90% of people don't understand that you can't refute illogical arguments with logic.
"The Earth is flat."
Refute that and make a flat earther believe otherwise. You can't. They will claim that science is an illusory tactic. The same applies to the Nazi argument. Their logic is founded in flawed science. They will cling to it, and will not be reasoned with. Reasoning with Nazis and letting them continue on with their lives is how World War II happened.
I fleshed out my position a little more farther down, but my idea is that if John Doe is on the fence about whether he believes the earth is flat or not, hearing sound logic being used against the uproar of idiocy may help convince John of the truth. So no, you aren't convincing the staunch flat-earthers, but you're winning the ideological war by robbing them of new followers.
I want to agree with you, I really do, but life has taught me that you can't have a logical conversation with an emotional person.
The vast majority of human beings will nearly always choose emotion over logic. All you can hope to do is plant a seed and give them something to think about later, but no one is ever going to convince someone who's emotional about an issue through logical appeals.
Precisely this. It demonstrates a failure of reason, and easily 90% of people seem unable to reason correctly, even if they had good educational opportunities, and even if they are perfectly decent people. Reasoning correctly is not easy.
What I don't understand is why it isn't the core focus of education. The rise of vocational training at high-school levels just baffles me.
It's better to punch them verbally with sound logic.
because racists & bigots are so logical right? I'm sure if someone had just explained how illogical hitlers hatred of the jews was, he'd have apologized & thrown Hanukkah parties. Nah, you gotta make nazis afraid to reveal that they're nazis.
I wish most people understood that, but I've seen plenty of instances where people who disagreed with the punching thing were accused of being Nazis themselves.
And you're right, it probably is ridiculously satisfying.
Yeah you are right. I have to be more careful saying "most people." The last year has shown me that i can't be confident saying that most people believe anything.
I think an important aspect to this is that many leftists are hyper aware of the normalization of fascism or authoritarianism and think of it more like a poison which seeps into people. They want to destroy it at the source by any means necessary, not argue with it, because they know that even though it is evil, it appeals to people VERY much.
Also, saying that its immature not to punch people you politically disagree with probably is true, but... that is also how the world has worked forever. People are angry, and they will act that way.
True, but if that person is working towards genocide it's totally okay to punch them.
kcjg8 · 1 points · Posted at 07:32:31 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
its not tho. Just because someone is talking badly about you or another race does not give you permission to put hands, or be physically violent against them. Physical violence is never ok; and it should be admonished as an act an barbaric or more so than the views it is against
It's also not okay to silence or otherwise attempt to drown out the voice of someone you disagree with with your own words. Seems to be happening a lot lately as well.
Unfortunately, not enough people understand that the louder you are the less valid or strong your position appears (regardless of whether it is or not).
Does this "free speech" extend to open authoritarians who advocate for the stripping of liberties and for violence (both direct and indirect) against minorities and those who oppose their authoritarianism?
The philosophical notion of "freedom of speech" long predates the US constitution. Some people thought it was important enough to codify it into law as something the government specifically cannot infringe upon...because they already considered it an important principle.
That first step of a law doesn't hold up in the modern world, though. Back then, political speech consisted of printing pamphlets and signs, word of mouth, etc.. Now we live in a world where talking to one or more people typically involves a chain of private companies. When the modern equivalent of tacking a message into the town square's bulletin board involves sending data from a device across an ISP's line, through a chain of servers owned by different companies, and then being hosted on an Internet forum owned by another company, we've reached quite a problem. You effectively can't have free expression if any expression that is unpopular or damaging to a moneyed interest can be causally removed by the private company hosting it or even blocked by the ones transmitting it. (Imagine if Comcast decided they wanted to block content supporting abortion or flag burning or whatever hot button topic you might want to read up on. That's incidentally part of the network neutrality issue, preventing carriers from interfering with traffic and treating them as common carriers, but that's another topic.)
Now the government has officially privatised censorship. If you assume that wealthy people who fund campaigns also have connections in the press and with companies that host or carry discussion, it's not a stretch of the imagination to realise that political discourse can now be curated and censored by those same parties without running afoul of the first amendment.
Let's say a president who starts an unpopular war (let's say people are split along partisan lines on it) wants to stop some damaging criticism from spreading like wildfire. Wouldn't it be convenient if their buddy who owns a popular social media company quietly suppressed mentions to it? Or if their campaign backer who owns a few media outlets agreed to not run stories critical of it? Or if a major web hosting company decided they'd cancel contracts with groups running anti-war sites. Or if an ISP decided they'd filter content critical of the administration.
Scary? Well, that's basically the world we live in, with the exception of ISPs not flexing their muscles yet. (They're still fighting network neutrality and getting people accustomed to the new status quo.) And even if you don't care for targets it's used against now, the constant risk is that tides turn. What's popular to censor now won't always be what's censored. Some day, it might be an issue you care about. That's why the fight for freedom of speech is often phrased as "I may not agree with you, but I agree you have a right to say it." Because otherwise you can't have a democracy.
So what do you mean by it as a basic concept? Should you be able to say whatever you want whenever you want? Should you be able to say something in my house/business without fear of being kicked out/fired? Should I be forced to listen to you, and accept your point of view?
I just don't get what people mean by fos as an ideal, as everyway I look at it, it infringes upon my rights of free speech as an ideal in an equal way.
When you put political leanings over epistemic responsibility, then you'll eventually always end up refusing freedom of speech.
We always knew that freedom of speech doesn't matter to the right, that they cry freedom of speech when it's in their favour and not when it's not. That which we defined as not believing in freedom of speech.
It's worrying to me that the left is starting to act the same way. Yes. Large swaths of the left would wipe their ass with human rights if it applied to something they didn't like. They've leveled the playing field with the right, with the alt-right, and now the right is using that playing field to gather support.
You know how super heroes sometimes fall from good, then create powerful enemies, Spider-Man using the black suit, which created Carnage in the end?
The Nazis are gaining power because they say that they're victimized, that no one will tell them they're wrong, just tell them to shut up with words or fists "because they know we're right, so they can't argue, they can only try to suppress us."
And the left? They're making every one of those accusations seem true.
So basically large swaths of the left don't believe in the freedom of speech
Not basically, absolutely
ythl · 5 points · Posted at 19:09:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Political party X takes over and decides it needs to change the narrative on certain issues or minorities. It convinces a bunch of large companies that going against the party line is hate speech and to terminate and destroy the careers of anyone who does. Government washes its hands and end goal still achieved: speech suppression.
It actually is. You just don't understand that the 1st Amendment isn't a blanket and absolute protection of speech, and instead believe that "Freedom of Speech" and "the exact strictures of the 1st Amendment" are identical.
Thankfully you're on a website where tons of people suffer under the same misapprehension - or have a vested interest in forwarding it - so you're likely going to be spared the consequences of your ignorance.
Sarioth · 2 points · Posted at 17:53:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm not following this line of thought. You see freedom of speech as the right to say whatever and not ever be met with criticism or retaliation, which in and of itself would suggest that at least one person's expression would be curtailed?
Actually it pretty much is. Is gay rights only about getting rid of laws that target gays, or is it about creating a society where it's socially acceptable to be gay? I'd say it's the latter. Even if you don't try to repeal the First Amendment, if you try to ruin the lives of people who have minority viewpoints, I'd say you are anti-free speech. You don't actually see value in letting people freely express what they think, and want to encourage silence instead.
Sarioth · -2 points · Posted at 17:55:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Freedom of speech is meant to support a marketplace of ideas. The theory is that the best ones win out over time. That, by necessity, means that some ideas need to be filtered out via the backlash they garner, which is itself another form of speech.
Action is not speech, unless you think banning blacks from your restaurant is a form of freedom of speech.
Sarioth · 1 points · Posted at 21:10:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Action is speech is my view, as people use action to express their viewpoint on everyday life. Banning blacks would be a form of speech, as it signals to the world that you hold a specific viewpoint. The same way in which a silent sit in at said restaurant is speech, there are no words, but action clearly conveying a message.
Here's the point I'm trying to make. By putting an arbitrary cutoff point for when speech should be free, you're indirectly restricting speech:
Person A: "I hold x viewpoint."
Person B: "Well, I hold y viewpoint."
Person A: "I find this unacceptable, and I'm deciding to tell others you hold this unacceptable viewpoint and further bar anyone that holds this view from entering my private property."
You seem to want to stop speech after person B responds, but this by necessity limits person A's ability to speak based on some sliding scale test of how much it will affect person B. How would you enforce this in society? Can you account for all stakeholders in your rule?
Granted, "Muh Free Speech" should not be used as a get-out-of-jail-free-card. However, there should still be some freedom after speech. Also, reacting with violence is never good.
Any response to idiotic speech should be also verbal. Not legal or violent.
Who decides the criteria to when said consequences should be applied? And how are you so certain they are appropriate? I find that the definition of hate has become so wide that playing piano could fit in.
You're mistaking it for "your rights end where my feelings begin". If feelings had more weight than objectively verified facts, then the legal system would be reduced to kindergarten levels.
Now, I'm not trying to forbid them from feeling whatever they will. But if they want to punish the "offender", there must be a more concrete argument than "I don't like it" and a hundred -ists/-phobics.
Freedom of Speech (in the US) protects citizens from the government. It means the government cannot prevent you from assembly or from speaking your mind (even flag burning is protected). But even that has confines. What you say can't be harmful to others (e.g. inciting violence/hate crimes) or illegal. If you're not in public, then freedom of speech doesn't apply.
It's not just the government's job to respect your freedom of speech by not preventing you from using it.
It's also their job to protect your freedom of speech.
So if you're burning the flag, saying gays are people, or spouting Nazi ideology, and someone punches you in the face, and the government ignores it instead of trying to prevent it or criminally charge the assault and batterer, then your rights are being violated still.
No, the first amendment of the constitution protects you from the government. Freedom of speech is an abstract principle that the first amendment was designed to support, by stating that the government wouldn't come after you for your speech.
Other institutions can support freedom of speech by saying they won't pursue punishments for speech or actively censor people that they have power over, just like the US government has. Or not, depending on what they want to do. No organization has to be pro-free-speech, and most aren't, because they value a particular message more than having a 'marketplace of ideas' or an open forum.
edit: We also have 'freedom of religion' in the US, but that has become much more broad than 'freedom of speech' where discrimination based on religion is prohibited for private orgs as well. We have 'freedom of association' but that actually isn't in the constitution explicitly, only added in case law. My point being that the actual legal realities are different than the general principles.
m50d · -10 points · Posted at 15:36:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes it is. That's exactly what it means. Even people in North Korea are free to say whatever they like - they're just not free from consequences after that. Is that the kind of freedom you want?
"Congress shall make no law...[]...abridging the freedom of speech..."
You're free from direct repercussions from the Government, to an extent (threatening someone or inciting violence isn't included, for example). That doesn't mean your employer can't fire your ass for dropping the N-word at work or posting an anti-Semitic rant on Facebook.
Except to an extent it is. If I live under a dictatorship and I'm arrested for criticising the government has my freedom of speech been undermined? Obviously yes. But that is still a consequence of my speech.
Ethics are inherently subjective but that isn't the point I was originally making. The original post was that freedom of speech is not freedom from consequence. I used an example to show that is untrue.
[deleted] · 109 points · Posted at 17:21:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I just had a lengthy conversation today with my supervisor about how his method of management is indescribably better than the micromanagement method that his boss wants him to use.
If you trust and respect your employees, they will act like adults and manage their work on their own. If you act like you don't trust your employees to do anything without direct supervision and guidance, then you aren't even giving them the choice to manage their own work, so of course they won't.
It can actually be placed rather quickly. It's th whole needing to cure thing that causes it to take awhile before use.
xxjxxx · 24 points · Posted at 16:10:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A lot of people don't seem to understand what progressive taxation is. I hear some people say shit like "It is better to be earning 49,999 instead of 50,000 since you will get taxed less." No that's not how it works. Your first 45,828 will get taxed on by 15% (Canada), the excess will fall into the second bracket in which it will get taxed at the rate of that bracket. Don't have the income tax act on me right now to know what that rate is but you get the point.
but if you make over a certain amount you no longer get freebies like free food and free healthcare and free housing so it makes sense not to make too much money.
xxjxxx · 4 points · Posted at 16:49:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In Canada? No you get free healthcare regardless.
And again this is what I mean with this flawed mentality. People think accounting is all about "HARD" cut-offs. That is probably the most ignorant way to think about the profession. If, lets say for example, you get free housing if your income is below 15,000. Let's say you're making 14,999 a year. They aren't going to boot you out if suddenly you made 15,002 in one certain year, since that 3 dollars will do jack shit to your quality of life (maybe buy you an additional iced-coffee every year). That just doesn't make any sense. However, if the situation changed, let's say they got a WHOLE NEW JOB that paid a lot more, let's say 25k/yr or 30k/yr, then the situation would be different.
If, lets say for example, you get free housing if your income is below 15,000. Let's say you're making 14,999 a year. They aren't going to boot you out if suddenly you made 15,002 in one certain year
I wouldn't be so certain, actually. If you make over the threshold, a government could use that as an excuse to kick you out of free housing in order to make room for someone making, say, $10k/yr with minor children.
xxjxxx · 2 points · Posted at 18:21:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Potentially yes. But again it is the situation that counts, family vs. 1 person. It is a complicated matter, but this topic is digressing from my point; which was, generally, people do not know what progressive taxation is. I don't want to discuss further since it is turning into a discussion of U.S. policy, which I know nothing of since I am in Canada.
There are things like the Pell Grant in the US. Its an income based award, with a minimum amount of $600. So, if your Estimated Family Contribution is right on the edge, and you do something as as simple as dropping an extra $20 into your savings account, you could lose out on the $600 in grant money.
That retail stores don't magically have your product ready to go for you "in the back". It's all a mess back there and I'm not gonna unpack the pallets for just you.
One time a walmart associate went to the truck while it was unloading to get me three bricks of 22lr when it was hard as hell to find on shelves due to hoarders and scalpers. I will always be forever grateful to that guy.
Sybre · 5 points · Posted at 19:56:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Who the hell scalps and hoards .22lr? It's considered the most common ammo today.
This happened in 2015 or so and I am in AZ so lots of shooters around. At the time there was a big demand increase on 22lr which drove prices up. The best price I could get from private sale was 6cpr and you had to line up early on stocking days to get any at retail. Those who lined up would try to resell for 8-10 cpr as shelves were perpetually bare. Amidst this high demand situation for someone to go out of their way for me like that really touched my heart.
Sybre · 2 points · Posted at 21:39:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I do gotta say that is pretty awesome, though it definitely is shocking that out of all rounds, the 22lr was the one out of stock.
Centerfire ammo can be reloaded by anyone with components and relatively simple equipment but rimfire needs to be factory manufactured. The manufacturing capacity had not caught up to the demand resulting in the shortage. More supply less demand and relatively high cpr means little to no scalping on centerfire ammo while 22lr is the complete opposite.
For some numbers comparison: 22lr 4cpr to 6cpr is 50% markup. For 9mm @ 25cpr 50% increase means 37cpr which is approx. 45acp prices and no one would pay that when it and its components are available.
If stores don't have it in your area keep an eye on /r/gundeals and online suppliers. Recently got a bunch of 22lr for 4cpr (prepanic price)
Hyndis · 1 points · Posted at 21:53:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Why in the world is 22lr so scarce? Its the most common round on the planet. Its small, cheap, easy to manufacture and you get a ton of them in a single box.
Yet they seem so rare its as if they're made out of unicorn horn and bigfoot fur.
See my reply to the other guy but the short answer is demand outpaced supply because of the specialized production needs of rimfire vs centerfire manufacturing.
Well, there were a few times where I simply asked if what I wanted could be "in the back", and the item in question was found rather quickly. It happens sometimes. Maybe they were moving stuff around between shelves, or a new boxes came in and were opened, but not yet distributed, etc etc.
It never hurts to ask, as long as you are polite and understand that your chances of getting the item are low.
I used to work at Walmart. Whenever we quickly found something "in the back" it was mostly dumb luck. The product happened to be somewhere noticeably and easily reached.
Sometimes it would actually be scanned into the inventory system, in which case we had a record of exactly where it was stored. On rare occasions it was actually stored where the record said it should be. That can also be the cause of a speedy product find.
My boss and I were on the floor doing some cleaning, and a customer insisted we "check the back". Most of the time, we explain that things are in poorly labeled boxes from the DC, and we can't easily just check the back. More often than not, we find what we find and stock more on accident than out of deliberately looking for it. Doesn't stop that odd customer every so often from being insistent about going in the back.
We don't have things magically available, but the boss always said, "go twiddle your thumbs or something and pretend to look, then apologize and say you couldn't find it a few minutes later".
I can't speak for other stores, but there were plenty of times where we "went in the back" and just stepped out the back door to have a cigarette and bullshit for five minutes.
I am a person pleaser, and I enjoy going out of my way to find ways to help a customer, but sometimes it's just not viable to shift freight for 20 minutes to find and access a specific type of cereal that you know is near the back wall.
Doesn't stop that odd customer every so often from being insistent about going in the back.
These people were the worst, who no matter what insisted you go look. The shittier they got about it the longer I'd spend back there doing nothing in particular.
Probably because retail worker Tim is new or performing poorly and needs to satisfy the customer... by any means necessary... 😉
[deleted] · 29 points · Posted at 18:37:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Or you know...Being nice? I worked retail for a few years and if you asked nicely enough and i had free time, i'd go back there to get what you needed. But according to reddit it's because im forced or im a retard. Got it.
Seriously I see this all the time. "There's nothing ever in the back, get tf over yourself". I've done this plenty of times at different retailers and it's worked. At game stop, sears, Macy's, whatever. Why am I an asshole for wanting to spend my money at a retailer and asking if they may have a size that's not up front? Jeez the retail circle jerk on reddit is quite annoying sometimes.
At Walmart I was never forced into giving good customer service. I just did it, because I'm going to be there for eight hours anyway so I may as well make my interactions with customers pleasant.
It doesn't hurt to ask though. Maybe in the particular store I am, for the particular item I'm looking for, they might actually be able to get one for me.
Maybe, but when someone tells you they don't have more in the back, do not insist that they go look... those people end up waiting forever for no reason.
PC509 · 5 points · Posted at 18:34:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When I worked retail... yes, we did. We purposely kept hot items back there so the customer would come to us and ask if we had any in the back. "Well, let me go check!". And when we magically come out, we have the item. They are so excited! We sell less that way, as the customer has to ask, but it's worth it to see that smile like it was Christmas morning.
(/s, just in case).
[deleted] · 9 points · Posted at 17:19:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes it is. And they are busy doing their job restocking the items that have already been unpacked. The item you asked for might be in a box in the back or it might not have been received yet, and it could literally take hours to open everything and find out.
Okay I worked retain at a huge store where we had, basically, gigantic shelves filled with every item in store that wouldn't fit on the shelves so 9 times out of 10 we did have it in the back, and could check pretty easily with the scanner to see how many were back there and where. Everything got restocked night and sometimes morning, plus during store hours intermittently, but we still ran out of stuff on the floor. Plus there was almost always somebody in the back we could radio, "he, can you grab xyz in a medium." I guess this wasn't common?
I worked at Walmart for three years. Your store sounds amazing.
We had the gigantic shelves too. But many people were lazy about scanning things into the inventory, or about making sure things were put where the inventory said they were. So looking for something in the back was a matter of checking several dozen pallets worth of stuff at best.
Our store was supposed to work like your store but in practice it never did.
bwave1 · 9 points · Posted at 18:20:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The stuff in the back is called "force-outs", it's when corporate goes to Vlasic and says, hey how much for a jar of pickles? $2.25!? Ok, how many would we have to buy to get down to $1 a jar? 100,000? (bob, how many jars of pickles we sell a month? 1,000?) Sure 100,000 sounds great send them along!
Then a few truckloads of pickles show up to the warehouse and they have no room for them, so then they send 2 full PALLETS of pickles to Store #628 in Stanky Cooch, PA who sells like 10 jars a month. And so they put the pallets in the backroom, and there they will sit until the store burns down 20 years from now.
So, the backroom is just full of this stuff that will never, ever sell, that is beyond full out front, has extra displays out front, etc.
Never is there a product that's sold out, out front that is in the back. Product is ordered every day to replenish and full case is put out when can, otherwise, it's up above the shelf, but not in the back.
Lesp00n · 2 points · Posted at 20:40:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Never is there a product that's sold out, out front that is in the back
You worked in a much better organized place than I did. At the grocery store I worked for it was like a 50/50 shot on if we really did have more. Too bad for those customers it was likely on a pallet way the hell up on a rack and only the overnight stockers even bothered to touch those unless it was the holiday season.
let me help you with this one, usually, and especially when you ask, there are too many items and people, and half the staff has already called out sick so they can stay home and play video games or visit their cousin in jail.
Yes. But the point is that the stockroom isn't a magical refilling station. If there is a high demand item you want and it's not out on the floor, the store doesn't have it. Why? Because it would be out on the floor being sold not sitting idle in the stockroom. If a shelf is empty at 10AM on a high demand product, it's because there aren't any in the back and will not be any until tomorrow at the earliest.
If a product is high demand, the system will generate a high priority pull that is then fulfilled by the stockroom worker that then sets it out for a salesfloor employee to work (or work it themselves if appropriate--often not since their job is to pull shit from the stockroom storage). If the product is exceptionally high demand, there may be a rotating system where the pulls don't stop and a team is assigned to constantly replenish (you can see this in action at a GM store that has grocery when a major holiday comes up like the Fourth of July and fresh grill meats are on large discounts). Or it may be communicated by radio that the pull is immediately addressed. Otherwise, normal demand or low demand pulls are generated as necessary and sit idle until a salesfloor employee has the time or opportunity to address it. Generally, those things are going to be items in household goods or other similar areas--pillows and towels can sit with an empty spot on the shelf for a few hours and nobody will care. It's a bit more dire that stuff like shampoo or cereal are filled before the store opens because that's the stuff people come in right away to buy.
It is extremely unusual for a shelf to be empty despite having inventory available in a properly functioning store. NOT TO SAY IT DOESN'T HAPPEN (mostly as a result of lazy employees stocking product incorrectly leading to improper overstocking which fucks with the computer system that controls it all), but the odds of inventory just sitting idle in the back to an empty shelf is extremely tiny. And those odds shrink even more when you start increasing the demand of the item. So your Elmo doll or whatever stupid Christmas fad item you're hunting that has an empty shelf is hilariously unlikely to just be sitting "in the back".
Realistically, the stuff that actually IS sitting "in the back" with an empty shelf on the salesfloor is your mundane shit in large quantities like paper towels and toilet paper. That is probably the one major exception to the rule of asking an employee if something is available "in the back". More likely than not, there is probably a pallet of your asswipe sitting 20 feet in the air.
But the Elmo doll? Nope, functionally zero chance.
Exactly. People want shampoo and shit from the back. The problem is that the small shampoo box is packed in one of 15 large pallets and may be underneath a huge pallet or in the middle. I am not wasting my time to do that. That's for the overnight shift people.
We have the extras in overstock directly above the items on the floor. Otherwise they think we're someone hiding them in "the back"
Aanar · 1 points · Posted at 19:11:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes, but about the only way it's going to be in the back is if you hit the narrow window of time where the item in question has gotten through receiving and we've simply haven't gotten that item back on the shelf yet. If you happen to be asking the department head that places the orders, they already know if it's back or not but customers don't believe them if they say no.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:05:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
yup. Soda vendor here. If something a customer wants is at the top of the pallet I will happily get it for them, but when I have a load going into a store it takes a few hours to get everything down stacked, stocked, and organized.
This had always drove me crazy. I've been in both furniture and appliances and both are simply showrooms. The warehouses that store this cap are off site and MILLIONS of square feet.
Some places don't even have a "back." I've had a customer at one point absolutely demand that I check "the back" for more of an item, ignoring both that we didn't have any more on hand and that we didn't actually have a "back." I walked to our receiving area, chatted with my boss for a few minutes, then returned and let them know that, unfortunately, we did not have any more of that item "in the back."
My old job was a pool store and pool customers think they're entitled to follow you into the back and stare at you until you start to go through every box/pallet.
Worked 9 years of retail through high school and college. Pool stores easily have the worst clientele.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:48:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When I worked retail I didn't mind this, it got me off the floor
The retail store I work at does not even have a back. We still say we will check the back for you, because some how that makes customers less mad than just telling them there is no back
I don't know if they were just pandering to those types of people or not but I have the inverse going on: I get retail workers that are like "I can check the back if you'd like" or sometimes don't even ask and go "I'll go check in the back" without me mentioning anything. It's super weird.
Then why when I called the store did they said they not only had canned coconut cream but had a whole case of it only to find out there's none when I show up?
Really supermarkets are ran so poorly it blows my mind. Everyone drops the ball continously until a manager or corporate cracks a whip over the intercom. When no one is responsible you'll get customers doing whatever they can to get what they want and get the fuck out. That includes badgering you about what is and isn't in the back.
That carbs shouldn't make up 50% of your diet. We were all raised to follow the old, now withdrawn, food pyramid. It came with an explosion in obesity and diabetes. Farmers feed their stock carbs to fatten them up before slaughter.
Meanwhile, people still think eating fat will kill them early. It's quite the opposite. The government took the pyramid away, but didn't do anything to reeducate the public. Slooooooowly doctors are starting to reeducate, but most folks still believe these old dietary guidelines.
[deleted] · 286 points · Posted at 16:29:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The enemy is sugar. Period. If everybody were to dramatically cut down their sugar content, they'd be happier, slimmer, and healthier in general.
We consume an absurd amount of sugar. It's causing diabetes, obesity, it's fucking with our happiness by reducing our serotonin levels over time. It's fine in moderation like most things but sugar consumption is out of control.
Not really sure why this is being downvoted. If you don't think I'm correct, then you're mistaken.
[deleted] · 73 points · Posted at 16:59:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Have you ever been to the US? There are supermarkets everywhere, stocked with tons of fresh food. You can be as healthy as you want. A lot of people are just lazy and come up with all sorts of excuses for why they make bad choices.
Pyrux · 0 points · Posted at 20:03:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
isn't belgium the country with the current record for most burgers being bought/eaten?
Unless you're counting vacationing Americans, Mexico isn't even in the top 20. USA is somewhere around #8-18, depending on where you look. And that's Ms. Dude to you. ;)
For some reason I remember reading that Mexico had a similar rate of obesity to the US a while ago. I guess that was not correct. Or maybe it was about sugar intake or something else.
If a food doesn't taste good without added sugar I find a different food. Cereal, granola bars, crackers, weird squishy white bread--I just don't eat them anymore.
I do eat desserts, but at least those are supposed to have sugar. Most people are already used to eating desserts in moderation.
Yea I was talking of more of in recipes etc. Somethings need sugar to be made correctly. I'm not promoting just blatantly throwing extra sugar on things ha.
I made plain oats in milk the other day for breakfast. My partner asked if it was gross, tried it, and was surprised there was no sugar. Just oats. He'd never even tried them before because ew, oatmeal. Many foods are surprisingly sweet without sugars added. Canned peaches have added corn syrup, ffs, and they're one of the sweetest natural foods there is.
[deleted] · 5 points · Posted at 20:06:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I was raised not-in-America, and when I moved here normal foods were making me sick. I started cutting things out thinking I had an allergy. Reading labels is what made me realize just how much sugar is added to things I was eating plain elsewhere.
When I cut down my sugar intake, it blew me away when I started tasting the sweetness in foods. Milk, for instance. Even water started to taste sweeter.
I don't know how anyone drinks sweet drinks. After a few sips, it's disgusting.
My go to drink is seltzer with lemon.
[deleted] · 5 points · Posted at 19:42:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The only diet change I've made in the past year was reducing sugar consumption and the effects are quite noticeable
[deleted] · 13 points · Posted at 18:19:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sugar is a carb.
And many refined carbs- refined wheat, white rice- is just as bad as sugar.
[deleted] · 4 points · Posted at 18:39:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes, but the difference is that most people aren't overeating refined wheat and white rice. They aren't consuming it every hour of the day.
Things like refined wheat and white rice are very easy to see when you're consuming them. Sugar is not in the least. There are people that down multiple liters of soda in a day, without thinking about how much sugar they're consuming. Those other things are problems sure, but not nearly as big as sugar.
I know that sugar is a carb, but I'm singling out sugar because it is by and far the biggest of the problems.
most people aren't overeating refined wheat and white rice
Speak for yourself ;)
[deleted] · -1 points · Posted at 18:52:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A cup of white rice has as much sugar as a can of soda.
So does ~3 slices of white bread.
Thompy · 2 points · Posted at 19:13:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Whoa, can you link a source to that statement?
[deleted] · 7 points · Posted at 19:39:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's not true. They're equating all carbohydrates as the same, so they're saying that 3 slices of white bread is the same as consuming 45 grams of sugar from a can of soda. Not really how that works.
The number of carbs are the same but simple sugars like table sugar are digested differently than more complex sugars like those found in white bread and white rice. Treating them as equivalent is silly.
Having said that, you should absolutely prioritize unrefined grains over refined ones. But no, eating 3 slices of white bread is not as bad as drinking a can of soda.
Thompy · 1 points · Posted at 22:25:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Whoa, can you link a source to that statement?
I'm kidding, to be fair that sounds more plausible and (s)he pretty much implied that 3 slices of bread was as bad as a can of soda which would be echoed everywhere if true.
They are stating that the 45g of carbs from a cup of white rice is equal to the 46g of sugar in a mtn dew. It's true that for the most part simple carbs (like those found in white rice, white bread, pasta) breakdown in the body the same as sugar. However, from a health standpoint there is more nutritional value to rice than a mtn dew.
Generally speaking whole-grain (NOT whole-wheat, they are different) is the way to go if you enjoy eating carbs. They contain more fiber and the carb to sugar breakdown is "better" placing it much lower on the glycemic index than white bread/rice/etc...
I dislike when people say mtn dew (or any other pop) is just as bad as white rice. While on a chemical level it's true, I don't know many people that eat 5-6 cups of white rice a day, but I have seen people drink 5-6 mtn dews a day. Pop is pure empty calories. There is at least some nutritional benefit to white rice, and it's easier to control intake of.
GeoM56 · 2 points · Posted at 19:46:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
whole-wheat is whole-grain, but not vice versa.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:22:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Can we get a nutritionist up in here? Everything I read says barely any sugar in rice. 0g on most labels. Even if your body turns it into a sugar, the nutrition label isn't telling you that. And the other guy saying fruit isn't that much better than candy? I'm not a nutritionist, I don't know the facts. But seems like you guys are spewing some bullshit to me. Evidence would be nice.
nickjaa · 2 points · Posted at 20:56:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Rice and sugar are both carbs, but sugar is sugar while rice is starch. At the end of the day they both become glucose in the body but soda is more likely to be unhealthy because a) there's a good chance you won't eat it with anything else (fiber, protein), so you'll get a sugar rush, b) it's bad for your teeth and c) it doesn't have the kind of minerals/nutrition you find in rice.
I know it's confusing, but the quality and quantity of your calories and macros are important, and you can safely ignore people who say otherwise.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 20:00:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Can we get a nutritionist up in here?
You'd want a dietician. Nutritionist isn't a regulated term. Dieticians have to be registered kind of like how you can't just say you're a practicing medical doctor.
Sugars are carbs. Look at a food label, it's listed as a subsection of carbs for a reason. Heavily refined carbs are virtually identical to sugars because your body is going to treat it all the same.
The only addendum here is that your body reacts differently when you're consume 'whole' carbs like beans, whole wheat, or wild rice. But once you refine it? Once rice loses it's fibrous husk, once you've removed everything but the carbohydrate, it doesn't really matter. Japanese people have an unusually high frequency of Type 2 Diabetes cases for this exact reason; white rice is ubiquitous in the Japanese diet.
And the other guy saying fruit isn't that much better than candy?
Depends on the fruit, and it does help to know what the fruit's genetic lineage is like. And yeah, treating fruits like candy isn't the worst idea. Apples for dessert used to be normal.
But one simple example is a banana. Eat roughly two medium sized bananas in a day and you've taken on the carb load of a can of soda. There's some micro nutrients but nothing you can't find in a better source. Dates are literal candy here- one cup, chopped has about 93 grams of sugars and 12 grams of fiber. Grapes are not much better, depending on the variety, although I haven't really heard of someone who packs through two or three cups of it a day.
You have to remember that a lot of these fruits find genetic lineage to an ancestor that didn't want to be eaten. Small, seedy, virtually inedible.
On the flip side, if 'berry' creeps up in the name of the fruit, it's probably pretty good. Raspberries, blackberries, strawberries, boysenberries, blueberries, cranberries etc, all are excellent sources of fiber- raspberries and blackberries are effectively half fiber by carb content- and micro nutrient dense in addition to usually having some not insignificant antioxidant content.
nickjaa · 1 points · Posted at 21:00:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No, no. Bananas have lots of micronutrients and one banana has 10 percent of the RDI of fiber so it won't give you a sugar high like soda. Bananas are not just a sugar delivery system. Carbs are good for you and you need carbs. I'd agree that you can get the same nutrients in bananas from a less sugary source, but that doesn't mean you should or that bananas are worthless sugar.
Yeah, this is the gulf between glycemic index and glycemic load. AIUI, the efficacy of the carbs in bananas is high -- they spike insulin thoroughly and swiftly. That's the index. But the amount you would have to eat to get the efficacy found in 50g of banana carbs is absurd. Adjusted for serving size, that's the glycemic load and it's pretty friendly.
nickjaa · 2 points · Posted at 21:56:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah load versus index is really important. I used to be so horrified when I learned rice has about the same GI as sugar until I realized how unlikely I am to consume rice without any protein or fiber or fat.
Do the protein and fat temper the carb's absorption and insulin production or is it just that they fill out the rest of the meal so you're eating less of it? That's the part I've wondered.
nickjaa · 2 points · Posted at 11:30:28 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Both. I mean you'll still have insulin released but it happens more slowly if there's protein/fiber/fat, making for a smoother, more prolonged release of energy. That's the difference between a foods glycemic index and a meals glycemic load
Ah, gotcha. Thanks! I thought it was purely amount of carb per serving, and couldn't figure out why banana or watermelon varied so much from their index numbers.
nickjaa · 2 points · Posted at 15:51:51 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah. Sorry all this stuff is so confusing and there's so much misinformation flying around. Honestly most people don't need to think about the glycemic index, calories and nutrients is already a lot of work and it's really all you probably need to know.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 21:32:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Carbs are good for you and you need carbs.
No you don't. There is absolutely no nutritional need to consume carbohydrates and your body doesn't particularly care if it has to consume fat or carbs to keep the lights on as long as the source is consistent.
And yeah, you can do a lot worse than a banana. But people don't understand that a banana is still pretty sugary and can proceed to gorge themselves on them.
nickjaa · 1 points · Posted at 22:00:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's unrealistic and useless advice, though. Like, yes people can put themselves in ketosis to get energy from fat if they want, sure. But if they're not, they won't. It's advice not remotely applicable to the average person wanting to lose weight. Practically everybody uses carbs for energy and doesn't know enough about nutrition or dieting to put themselves into ketosis nor do they have the commitment, willpower or motivation to do so.
Sure, you can be ketogenic, but it's much, much, much more work than even the most committed health and fitness people are willing to put in, especially since the return on investment is so small and there are so many other ways to reduce your cancer/diabetes risk. (Unless you're epileptic, of course, in which case go ketosis.)
Don't advise people to not eat carbs, especially if you're talking to people who want to exercise. Again, I know that you can get by just fine on ketosis, but 99.999999% of people won't want to or need to.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 22:31:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sure, you can be ketogenic, but it's much, much, much more work than even the most committed health and fitness people are willing to put in,
Yeah it's really not hard and very little work. Learning what has carbs in it is the hardest part and that's not really hard especially with the internet.
Now whether it's necessary or worth it to you is completely different conversations but it's really not hard.
nickjaa · 1 points · Posted at 22:57:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
you're going to tell me it's easy to indefinitely plan every single one of the meals you eat to make sure you're getting at least half your calories from fat and no more than 30 grams of carbs a day? Yes, that's hard. I track my macros and work in the fitness industry but I know it's not realistic to tell the average person 'you don't need carbs, going keto is easy.'
Being 'healthy' and getting enough vitamins and minerals and protein is already extremely hard for most people. Adding 'also you should do keto' is just not a constructive solution to the health problems.
I guess maybe we're talking about different things, though - we started on what most people have wrong about diet and moved into how certain very motivated people can be healthy. I'm coming at this from what is achievable for the average person, and I firmly believe keto is not.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 23:02:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I mean, if you make keto a prison, it's going to become a prison. Even it's big proponents will tell you that the goal of staying under 100 grams of carbs daily is more important than staying below 30.
nickjaa · 1 points · Posted at 23:23:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think in that case there may be some confusion about keto vs low carb. Keto is either/or: you're using ketones for fuel or you aren't. That won't happen on 100g carbs a day. You're describing a low carb diet, which isn't ideal (edit: for most people) if you're exercising much but can be great for sedentary folk.
To be clear, I don't have an issue with keto people, I have an issue with recommending it to an average overweight American as a means to improve their health. The average person will never, ever, ever be able to count calories, let alone track macros, let alone have the time, motivation, and resourcefulness to go keto. Too many people don't even know how to cook. the best we can do is figure out ways for people to keep an eye on food groups and portion sizes, you know?
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 01:03:27 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's not exactly how it works. Even on a conventional carb driven diet your body still gets about ~5% of it's fuel from ketones.
And actually, this is coming from people who highly recommend keto diets. You should aggressively reduce carb intake as low as possible if you're trying to lose weight, but once you've reached weight goals every good keto diet actually recommends reintroducing some carbs.
The average person will never, ever, ever be able to count calories, let alone track macros, let alone have the time, motivation, and resourcefulness to go keto. Too many people don't even know how to cook. the best we can do is figure out ways for people to keep an eye on food groups and portion sizes, you know?
In which case a fat-centric diet is actually a good thing. Fat isn't like carbs in the sense that it doesn't 'break' your body's ability to realize it's full. It's significantly more difficult to over eat on a fat-heavy diet.
There may not be added sugars to your rice, but rice is 99% (or 100) carbohydrates. Carbs ARE sugar.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 19:37:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
2 slices of white bread has 3 grams of sugar, so 3 slices has about 4.5. That's not even close to a can of soda.
1 cup of white rice has literally 0.1g of sugar.
You're equating all carbs to table sugar. That's not how it works. By that same logic brown rice and whole wheat bread also have as much sugar as a can of soda. It's just not true.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:42:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A cup of white rice has 45 grams of carbs and virtually no fiber- .6 grams.
A slice of white bread has 15 grams of carbs is slightly better at .8 grams of fiber.
A can of coke has about 42?
If a food has no dietary fiber in it, the carbs are all the same.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 21:19:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If a food has no dietary fiber in it, the carbs are all the same.
Both of those things have fiber. Albeit not a whole lot, but they do have fiber. Hence, they are not the same as 42g of sugar in a coke. This is what I'm getting at. You said they have the same amount of (simple) sugar that a can of soda does. While refined carbohydrates are not as complex as unrefined like you find in whole wheat products, they're still more complex than simple sugars and thus take longer the break down and digest. Again, this was my point.
I was never trying to assert that eating 45g of unrefined carbs is fine or healthy, just that your claim that a cup of white rice = a can of soda is misleading.
812many · 10 points · Posted at 18:16:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I better not eat any more fruit, then! /s
It's more nuanced than that, the trick is to not eat stuff with added sugar, like soda.
You say that, but fruit has been bred and modified by people to be bigger and sweeter. Your fruit does have added sugar, it's just been bred to add the sugar itself.
812many · -1 points · Posted at 20:16:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Still healthier than pouring a bag of sugar down your throat.
jivow · -4 points · Posted at 18:26:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
no /s - fruits apart from containing vitamins are quite unhealthy due to high sugar content. There is not that much difference between drinking coke and drinking orange juice - both can make you fat.
812many · 8 points · Posted at 18:47:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Fruits have fiber and more complex sugars than just added sugar. They are considerably more healthy than straight sugar. Doctors recommend a certain amount of fruit in your diet, while they recommend no food with added sugars.
jivow · 1 points · Posted at 19:01:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Fruits have fiber and more complex sugars than just added sugar.
They do have more than the "added sugar", true, but "added sugar" is refined straight from vegetables (beets).
And it is more complex fructose-glucose than e.g. a natural inverted sugar (honey). And even more complex sugars (e.g. starches) are the "evil carbs" so many talk about.
They are considerably more healthy than straight sugar.
And pipes are more healthy than cigarettes and e-cigarettes are more healthy than cigarettes. But truth being told fruits are not that much better than candies.
To get to the numbers - if you replace your coke with orange juice in the same quantity you won't lower you caloric intake.
Doctors recommend a certain amount of fruit in your diet, while they recommend no food with added sugars.
And if you add up all the things that "doctors recommend" you will go way over your recommended daily intake.
Liquid fruits (orange juice) don't contain any fiber and they're nothing more than sugar water with some vitamins. Fruits were intended to be eaten, not blended up and drank.
There is not that much difference between drinking coke and drinking orange juice - both can make you fat.
People saying shit like this is what stops people from bothering to lose weight.
It's not all or nothing; if someone is eating two apples instead of ice cream, it's not perfect, but it's an improvement. Someone's eating carrots ('high' in sugar) and not a bag of potato chips, it's still an improvement.
Not everyone is ready, able, or willing to eat a 100% perfectly nutritionally balanced diet. Let people make better decisions without criticizing them for not being 'optimal'.
nickjaa · 2 points · Posted at 21:01:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
excellent comment
jivow · 2 points · Posted at 19:25:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
People saying shit like this is what stops people from bothering to lose weight.
I'm doing well loosing weight (so far 23kg down) because I read labels. People throwing shitty factoids instead of real info are the reason so many people have troubles loosing weight.
if someone is eating two apples instead of ice cream, it's not perfect, but it's an improvement.
2 medium apples are about 150-160 kcal. Two big apples are around 200kcal.
Chocolate dipped ice-cream are around 250 kcal, true, but "plain" ice cream will be around 120-140 kcal.
So depending and what do you consider apple and ice-cream you may see from only very slight through no effect to negative effect. This is what I'm talking about saying that fruits aren't a golden bullet.
Esp that ice-cream will be more filling due to higher fat content while apple is mostly sugar-water.
Someone's eating carrots ('high' in sugar) and not a bag of potato chips, it's still an improvement.
Carrots are way better than chips. Apples aren't better than ice-cream. Orange juice isn't better than cola.
Let people make better decisions without criticizing them for not being 'optimal'.
You don't need to be perfect but you need to be good enough to make ot look like it's working. If you will eat things you don't like that much and in the end lose a 1 kg in a month you will give up if you still have 30 to go.
cpMetis · 2 points · Posted at 20:09:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Fuck sugar.
Not because of health effects, but because of the taste. How do people like that shit, or anything with it in high concentration?
Eating too much refined carbohydrates is bad too. Lots of pasta, white bread, rice etc is also bad for you too and, lots of people eat very little sugar but still have way too much refined carbohydrate in their diet, leading to spikes in blood glucose. It doesn't matter what it came from, high blood glucose is the problem and, large amounts of sugar are not the only easy way to get to that.
nickjaa · 1 points · Posted at 20:10:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
By itself, it isn't. Only if it's 'the enemy' because it's easy to eat too much of it. And if that's true, then what you really mean is too many calories are the enemy.
If you don't think I'm correct, then you're mistaken.
We consume an absurd amount of sugar. It's causing ..obesity
Hate to break it to you but eating like a fat person makes you fat, sugar just makes it more convenient.
You can eat NOTHING BUT SUGAR and lose weight. You will probably get diabetes and/or be very unhealthy, but you can't blame carbs for obesity.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:51:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You can eat NOTHING BUT SUGAR and lose weight.
Yes, I am aware. Never said anything to the contrary. I'm also not talking about explicitly weight loss.
You will probably get diabetes and/or be very unhealthy, but you can't blame carbs for obesity.
Yes, I can, because they are huge contributors, if not the biggest.
You're right that eating like a fat person makes you fat. You know what fat people tend to eat a lot of? Carbs and especially sugar. You know what high calorie foods tend to be packed with? Carbs and sugar. Not exclusively obviously, but they play major roles.
Did I say that carbs are the only cause for obesity? No. Did I say that if you consume a ton of carbs and sugar you will 100% be obese? No. But to act like they aren't major contributors to obesity is naive.
The enemy is extreme diets. I never limit calories, never count fat or anything. I'm still quite fit. Literally just eat food and exercise everyday. Not hard
That's called anecdotal evidence. For some people, like you, it comes naturally. Others have to intentionally work at it with methods like calorie counting.
Actually if you eat normal sized portions you develop a sense of what the right amount of food is. That's why families that make their kids finish all their meals have higher rates of obesity. So you definitely don't need to calorie count if your parents didn't fuck ur diet
Be that as it may, a lot of people did get their diets fucked/had parents who didn't know about nutrition. I'd say it's actually a minority who were taught good eating habits, because it's easier and quicker to rely on junk food.
So much this but I want you to realize that the slow adoption rate is purely because of all of the propaganda being pumped into our brains for the last 60 years as to what a healthy diet is.
[deleted] · 13 points · Posted at 15:36:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
All I know is, when I cut wheat out of my diet, I lost five pounds. As soon as I started eating more carbs, especially bread and wheat products, I gained it back immediately. I ate a lot of fat in the period of time where I lost weight, too. It's like people think if you eat fat, your body will say, 'this is fat, I'll just put this on your waistline immediately without breaking it down first.'
R99 · 9 points · Posted at 18:27:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Carbs make you gain weight because they have a lot of calories, but don't really make you feel that full. It's easier to overeat carbs than it is protein and fat.
Thompy · 1 points · Posted at 19:14:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Pasta is a carbohydrate, and that definitely fills you up.
I live on fats (keto) and I'm healthier than ever, both weight wise and on my blood tests.
[deleted] · 4 points · Posted at 18:36:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm thinking about Keto. I've noticed that whenever I have a sufficient amount of grains or gluten-heavy foods I get depressed, tired, and things tend to just get shittier. I tried cutting it out and realized I was feeling better, a lot better. I went from 210 to 205 in a week. Started back on breads and other carbs...and now I'm back up to 210 again.
I'd say do it. Remember it's not a diet, it's a lifestyle change, as you've seen what happens when going back to carb heavy food.
I love that I get to eat red meat, butter, bacon, peanut butter, on my "diet." Once you get fat adapted it gets so much easier. I've noticed I get depressed WAY less often, my body hurts less all the time, and my stamina is increased.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 22:41:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Carby foods make you retain water. That's probably where you saw that five pounds come and go.
Keto has been great for me though, I was never a big sweets guy so cutting that out was easy. Losing pasta and tortilla chips was harder but everything else keto has done for me makes it more than worth it.
PC509 · 1 points · Posted at 18:37:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What about cholesterol? Doesn't that go up?
I've got a lot of heart disease in my family, and cholesterol is generally high in the family, too. Fats were generally a no-no.
I'm looking for a way to get off of carbs. I'm not fat at all, but I'm not healthy.
Mine went down, slightly, but it wasn't in a bad range to begin with. Yes I eat mainly fats now, but my diet as a whole is WAY better. I get my fat sources from good fats (meat, olive oil, coconut oil, etc), not hidden in mcdonalds food and twinkies.
Checkout /r/keto. I know we probably sound cultish anytime carbs come up on reddit, but it's because so many of us have changed our lives on it.
The fat raises cholesterol thing has been proven to be mostly a myth, your body regulates cholesterol pretty strictly and if it's high it's because your body is actively repairing damage. Not to mention studies have shown that lowering cholesterol does not prevent heart attacks.
PC509 · 2 points · Posted at 20:46:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Cool. I'll have to look into it, then.
I love meat, but giving up the pasta/rice/potatoes is going to be the hard part. I'm good giving up sweets, it's the other carbs that get me.
Yeah, it is definitely a much harder hurdle than dropping sugar. Checkout the keto faq
PC509 · 1 points · Posted at 20:52:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Cool. Thanks!
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 22:44:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That was the hard part for me. I didn't really care about sweets.
Based on my experience the best advice I can give you is to meal prep for a couple of weeks. It's a lot easier to say no to those cravings when you're food is already decided on and made. After a couple of weeks those craving will greatly, greatly subside and the whole thing gets way easier.
I tried Keto strictly for about a month and felt awful. Less than 20 carbs a day. I added a couple supplements that were suggested to help as well as electrolytes, but still felt really bad.
I've had carb flu before when going low carb (not Keto levels) but it generally passed after a few days. After a full month of no energy and feeling bad I gave up on Keto. :( Sucks because I was losing weight rather easily and my appetite was SO much easier to control.
Perhaps my body is just happier in the low carb realm (50ish ala Mark Sisson). Now I just need to get back on track.
I was lucky enough to not have keto flu, but I make sure I take the required amount of magnesium and potassium every day. I'm sorry it was too hard for you, maybe try again another time, with more prep ?
Those are the two I added but not until a couple weeks in (magnesium and potassium). Yeah, I may try again with supplementing from the start. I may also ease into it this time. Get back into the 50g carbs realm regularly and then start cutting back more.
Of all the diets I've tried, lowering my carb intake has always seemed the most effective and made me feel the most satiated. It also seems to make the most logical sense on why it's better for our bodies.
[deleted] · -1 points · Posted at 19:12:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Fat vs carb is mostly irrelevant. What matters is total calories. Though don't assume what is written on the pckage is exactly what you're getting either
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 18:25:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
agreed: fat adds satiety to food, making you feel full for longer (this is good). High protein and fat and high fiber is better than carbs and sugar which burn you out and make you want to eat again sooner.
jivow · 3 points · Posted at 18:30:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That carbs shouldn't make up 50% of your diet.
And where did you get that revelation? From the onset of farming starches (so carbs) became a base of diet.
This issue is, as almost everything, a lot more nuanced. One of the reasons people get fat it that they can afford food - food is cheap, food is available, and eating food is pleasurable.
So while yes, promoting sugars instead of fats is bad so is making everything black and white.
65% of everything I eat is fat. I lost weight. My blood pressure and cholesterol normalized. I'm healthier. I'm not saying everyone should go this extreme. I'm just trying to point out the correlation between fat (intake) shaming and obesity rates.
I thought carbs were essential for energy tho, is this also false?
I'd happily cut all carbs if that was the right way to go.. I could just cover that piece of the plate with veggies easily..should I? I work a job that requires me to be highly active tho... I always felt like I needed the carbs.
I've had carbs with pretty much every meal in my entire life I think... I am a little overwhelmed by the prospect of giving it up but I'll give it a try.
Mostly I think it will hurt my in the wallet because rice is so cheap it's almost free, and it's been like 40-50% of my plate since forever.
I guess I'm gonna be learning how to cook veggies as a side dish now for a while, will be fun !
Oh and making packed microwave dinners without rice will be a challenge.
Good luck and enjoy ! Plenty of useful stuff on r/keto.
I was worried about missing rice, pasta, pizza, burgers, but I only missed it for a week or two. I've been treating myself with cucumber, fêta, avocado, all sorts of cheese, dried sausage, brocolis, cauliflower, eggs, cabage, mayonnaise... Really don't feel i'm on a diet. I even sometimes indulge myself a burger, I just don't eat the buns and avoid the sauce.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:14:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I eat a shit to of cauliflower rice. But honestly, after a month of not eating a carb with every meal I didn't really miss it. At first it's weird to have a meat and veggie only on your plate but you get used to it.
I still allow myself 'cheat days' but I have an addiction to sushi. And fast food is almost impossible. Most restaurant food is unless you like salads.
After 6 months I can only eat about half a cup of rice before I'm uncomfortably full.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:52:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you are really interested, start off slow and maybe replace half the rice with another scoop of veggies. No reason to give up all carbs if you're managing your health. Carbs are damn delicious.
Rice/beans and ramen were probably 90% of my diet in my poor days. Which is why I shouldn't eat them now.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 01:02:12 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Beans do have carbs, but I eat beans all the time because I'm a lazy half-vegetarian. I would stay away from red or kidney beans, they can be toxic.
If you were very serious about keto maybe you'd not eat them? Not sure.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 22:57:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
nd fast food is almost impossible. Most restaurant food is unless you like salads.
I have yet to run into a burger place that wouldn't make me a lettuce wrap, places like taco bell have bowls you can do if you cut the rice/beans. Salads from fast food places are usually harder in my experience because you have to pull so much fruit and shit off of them and find a dressing that's not 75 percent sugar.
This is false. Fat is energy. Wether stores or consumed, it's energy.
Another thing that I just learned last week is that the feeling most of us associate with hunger is actually carb craving. When you don't eat carbs and go into ketosis, you can go a lot longer without food or feeling hungry. 3 meals a day is overkill.
dasiffy · 2 points · Posted at 18:44:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Your body uses fuel in the following order...
carbs currently in your stomach
glycogen stores in your muscles
fat
When what you eat gets digested, any vitamins, minerals, protein will get used right away. Any carbs you eat which don't get burned turn into fat with everything else in your stomach.
Nah, your brain needs carbs, but can turn things you eat into it. You can do a Keto type diet without cutting a lot of crabs, like 100g per day. Currently I'm doing 30g of crabs per day or less, 4 months in and I lost 100lbs and haven't had any less energy than before.
True, I was saying that a lower carb diet of under 100 helps some people. I didn't mean they would be in ketosis. I should have written more clearly.
[deleted] · -1 points · Posted at 18:24:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You do not need carbs to power your body. Our ancient ancestors didn't actually have wide access to 'carb dump' foods we have today like potatoes, beans, many fruits, and many grains.
Other than a 'keto flu' that develops as your body acclimates from primarily fueling itself off carbs to fueling itself on fats, there really isn't any major drawback to a ketogenic diet, other than that it can be pricey. That and you need to be conscious of how much fat you consume. If you don't get enough fat relative to your protein intake your body will actually start converting protein to carbohydrates in your liver.
jivow · 8 points · Posted at 18:35:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Our ancient ancestors
What? You may have skipped on few thousand years of human civilisation.
While there is nothing wrong with keto let's get facts straight - our most recent ancestors had their diets based on starches.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 18:51:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
From what? They were nomads.
jivow · 2 points · Posted at 19:29:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:38:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
We're talking about prior to the agricultural revolution. Anatomically modern humans are at least 200,000 years old.
jivow · 1 points · Posted at 20:11:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And so? The fact that you have anatomy similar doesn't meant that the changes in hormone activity, intestine microbiome, intestine secretions and so on didn't happen. Just look at the tolerance for alcohol or lactose between Asian and European populations.
For your consideration:
It took 30 years of selective pressure for swallows that live near highways to evolve in a more "agile" sub-species that is better at avoiding fast-moving cars. That's 30 generations. We're talking about around 500-700 generations of humans since agriculture started that were eating increasingly more starch-based diet.
Ponsif · -9 points · Posted at 16:47:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The fact that a diet helped you lose weight doesn't mean that it's healthy.
Do you make up ridiculous arguments to prove a point. Or do you go through extreme practices to do it? Either way.....lame.
[deleted] · 4 points · Posted at 17:12:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When I was an electrician they set up food stands on the site I was working on. I ate nothing but greasy hamburgers and burritos and the like every single day for lunch. I'd buy extra and put it in my cooler for dinner. It was all through Google so we were getting it at discount; I was paying like $3.50 in total for 2 meals a day. Was amazing.
Never gained a pound, no health problems as of my last checkup. I ate that stuff for over half a year. That and some snacks and fruit and stuff I would stock up on and lug around.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 16:59:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No you didn't.
[deleted] · -6 points · Posted at 17:31:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
[deleted] · 4 points · Posted at 17:37:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Anytime. But really, its actually pretty well established at this point that a high fat/high protein/low carb diet is a very healthy lifestyle.
There is literally zero science supporting McDonalds french fries being healthy.
But lets be honest dude, we all know 100% you are full of shit and made up a hypothetical situation that technically could be true, but obviously isn't because you're a redditor who just wanted to prove some point by being contrarian.
Not to mention if every meal you ate was fries you'd be dead because you would be missing out on so many actual nutrients and vitamins and minerals your body needs you literally wouldn't survive.
Actually, and surprisingly, yes. Lipids (healthy fat) and proteins : meat and or vegetables. Carbs are really non essential. Mainly pleasure food, and since carbs are sugar, they make you fatter and sick over time. Search keto on reddit. It's real, not a fad.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:56:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Was going to rant about this but you beat me to it
I agree with this completely, I have for the past 3 months stuck to a strict low-carb, high protein, high-fat, nutrient dense diet.
I used to always feel so sluggish after a meal, especially after lunch at work and I couldn't figure out why, so I started doing some research into a Keto type diet. Best decision I have ever made, I dropped a whole pant size in 2 months and I can feel my body becoming healthier.
Yes but just saying "carbs" rather than "complex carbs" or "refined/simple carbs" makes everything super vague, which I dislike about paleo/keto people. I agree that simple carbs like white bread and sugar are pretty addictive though.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 18:36:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
While a Calorie is a Calorie when it comes to weight loss/gain, there are other facets to nutrition that are important. You can't live on just carbs, you require protein and fat and the micronutrients they contain to survive. Also, carbs tend to have more adverse side effects like causing inflammation and changing hormone levels.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:34:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah the federally founded food pyramid was always a con and, while recommending 11 servings of grains, they were getting kickbacks from the farmers in Iowa. Now they look at us and say they want to be in charge of our healthcare after making everyone fat.
Wasn't the old food pyramid created by the USDA? Notice that the USDA has nothing to do with nutrition and everything to do with selling crops like wheat
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:52:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
We were all raised to follow the old, now withdrawn, food pyramid. It came with an explosion in obesity and diabetes.
The obesity epidemic came from the proliferation of fast food restaurants, drive-thru windows, and replacing water with soda and juice. Not that many people followed the food pyramid.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:00:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When it comes to weight it's calories in, calories out. That's it. IIFYM (If It Fits Your Macros) FTW :D
In the Middle Ages, people ate bread for up to 85% of their Calories. They weren't exactly healthy, but they weren't obese. So eating carbs between 50% and 70% must be bad for you, but not on either side, right?
Correlation is not causation. Calorie source makes little difference, unless it's simple sugar.
Farmers feed their stock carbs to fatten them up before slaughter
Cattle have evolved to digest grass, so obviously when you feed them an overt source of calories they'll fatten up. It's like going from only eating salad to only eating cashews. That's not a good argument for why carbs can be bad for you.
Added sugar is the problem. Natural sugars are fine in moderation. Ie: fruits, carrots.
A diet with MOSTLY greens/ veggies (whether you decide to be vegetarian is totally up to you and not really relevant) high in healthy fats, protein, moderate on carbs, low in sugar and dairy intake is proven to be the most beneficial to both body and mind.
Combined with moderate exercise.
The key with everything really is moderation. People have this tendency to eat way too much of one thing because they like it.
Actually. If you subscribe the the infinitely expanding universe theory, the universe is expanding infinitely in all directions at this very moment. Which means that at any given point of time, both of us are the center of the universe simultaneously
I mean, you're big, sure. Maybe even morbidly obese.
But I still don't think that makes you the center of the universe.
aus_in · 19 points · Posted at 19:49:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
At Starbucks, order your ice water with the rest of your order - at the register. By the time you've gotten your drink and asked for an ice water, there are already 12 other drinks I'm supposed to be making. The whole system is set up on a repeatable routine, and you are completely ruining it.
In the US / right-lane-driving countries
Left lane is only for passing in highways
Drivers should stay on the right lane if they are not passing. Staying on the left lane because you're going the speed limit should not be acceptable.
Same in Germany. If you can stay in a lane further right than you are for more than 20 sec you are supposed to change.
That being said, we have middle lane huggers that think the right lane is just for trucks...
Edit: Time is shorter than first stated
[deleted] · 5 points · Posted at 16:53:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't think those rules are so cut and dry in a 3+ lane scenario. The right lane is for getting on and leaving the highway, the middle lane is "I'm not speeding but also not getting off anytime soon", and any additional left lanes are "if I have to tap my brakes you're a dick".
"Erlaubt die Benutzung des rechten Fahrstreifens trotz vorausfahrender Fahrzeuge die Beibehaltung der Geschwindigkeit auf längere Zeit - von der Rechtsprechung entschieden sind mehr als 20 Sekunden -, gilt das Rechtsfahrgebot."
Yeah right, say that to my dad. When he taught me how to drive in France, on the autoroute he specifically says "stays in the middle, the right are for slow people/ exit/entering.
h6xy · 1 points · Posted at 20:28:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Uk obviously has the lanes flipped but we have a law in place for middle lane hogging - 3 points and £100. Although only 135 fines were issued after about 2 years sooo
Slaisa · 1 points · Posted at 12:06:48 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
And yet people don't care. They're so intent on "policing the lawbreakers" using their own form of vigilanteism of driving slow in the passing lane, breaking the laws themselves.
People don't accidentally create a rolling roadblock, it's intentional.
igiggy · 1 points · Posted at 18:07:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Recently road tripped through Western and south eastern Michigan and everyone stayed out of the left lane except to pass. Crossed over to Ohio, and holy fuck do we such at driving on the highway. The difference was staggering
In California, it's not just for passing. You can stay in that left lane as long as you want. You just can't impede traffic. So if you're doing 85 in the left lane and suddenly someone comes up behind you doing 90, you're supposed to get over and let them pass on the left.
Although, most people going super fast will just go around you right away without giving you a chance to move out of their way, but that's their problem
There are loads (relatively, probably one in three hundred cars but you see them every day) of people who drive like 110 on the freeway in LA and will not give you the chance to move, this guy is right.
[deleted] · -7 points · Posted at 17:40:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If someone is going 110 and has room to maneuver into the right lane to pass you that means there was plenty of space for you, someone going much slower, to move into the right lane first. And you can't even say they were going to fast for you to react, because if they have that much space to do it then there cannot be anyone in the right lane meaning you are in the left lane for no reason at all other than you're daydreaming instead of getting over.
Someone going 110 is going to get on your ass quickly, and you may not have been looking in the rear-view mirror at the time.
Don't forget that these people are coming from behind you, and looking forward is more important than looking back when driving on the freeway.
[deleted] · -7 points · Posted at 18:09:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The person behind you is irrelevant. If they have space to pass you going 110 on the right then that already means you should have long since moved into the right lane. It isn't about seeing them and then moving, the point of the law is that you are already over to the right because you have no reason to be in the left.
Not if there is enough space between two cars for you to fit in on your right but they are also going slower than you. Say I am going 75 and the two spaced out cars are going 65, I am slowly going to pass them so why would I be in there lane?
[deleted] · 5 points · Posted at 18:31:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If someone is going 110, and has room to actually maneuver around you while you're going 75, then the gap you are describing is MUCH bigger. If you won't be moving around them in the next 20-30 seconds then you should be in the right lane.
I'm not saying they are right and aren't breaking the law speeding but if they are going nearly twice as fast as you are and can make that maneuver, then you're misrepresenting how much space is actually there between each of those cars.
And further, 75 in the left lane is impeding traffic in most major cities. If you're going 75 in the far left lane in LA/Dallas/Houston/etc then you are the one causing problems, legal or not.
If I am in the left lane and see someone coming up on me I'll get out of their way as soon as it's safe. If you want to drive faster than me I want you ahead of me not behind me. The person who doesn't give you the chance to get out their way is also the person that'll cut in front of another car in the right lane making that car slam on their breaks. I won't do that.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 00:20:41 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 00:23:01 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
This, but moreso. The middle lane is not the right lane. When people park in the middle lane on a 3-lane highway it causes almost as many backups as being in the leftmost lane. In general, if you look to your right and don't see a car, move right a lane. Rinse and repeat.
This is actually not true in Maryland. While most states have laws on the books stating exactly what you just said, in Maryland both lanes are treated as completely equal in the eyes of the law. You can legally drive whatever speed you want and for however long you want in any lane. I strongly suspect that this is why Maryland drivers are the worst in the world.
Chross · 4 points · Posted at 17:39:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I've never once seen someone not breaking the law get screwed over by someone doing the speed limit in the left lane. I completely agree with your statement but I just find it interesting that we demonize speed limit drivers for following the law (in those places where it is not explicitly against the law to be in the left hand lane). And sure we could say it's because we want the lane to be clear for emergency vehicles but we all know we want it to be clear so we can get to places faster. Sure, driving slower than others causing them to weave through traffic will cause more accidents... but I never see anyone bring up that most people don't understand that the speed limit is the maximum speed you are allowed to move your vehicle along a road.
That being said... outta my way, I'm late for work.
[deleted] · 8 points · Posted at 16:07:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The "left lane is for passing only" law makes little sense: it sets up two conflicting sets of laws that drivers have to follow.
The speed limit on the interstate I take to work is 55 MPH. If I'm going 65 MPH in the left lane, I'm holding up traffic behind me. So the police could ticket me over for both going too slow, and too fast. I don't know why we're allowed to have laws that conflict in such a way that an action could be considered both illegal for doing too much, and illegal for not doing enough.
Second, anyone who complains about slow drivers in the left lane don't have a leg to stand on. Their argument is basically:
1) I want to break the law by speeding
2) You are impeding my ability to break the law because you're going a legal speed in the left lane
3) You impeding my ability to break the law is also an instance of breaking the law
4) You shouldn't break the law
You're arguing that since it's illegal for a person to impede you from doing something illegal, you're in the right and they're in the wrong. It's an incoherent argument.
Zncon · 10 points · Posted at 17:58:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Traveling at a significantly different speed (+/- 10 MPH) then the rest of traffic is more dangerous then maintaining a higher speed.
I'd actually consider this a core issue with our fixed speed limit system. If the majority of traffic is traveling 15 MPH over the posted limit, someone traveling at the limit is much more likely to be the cause of an accident. Breaking the law to match the average speed is safer.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 18:52:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I agree (partially). What's at issue in my mind is we have two sets of traffic laws that contradict one another. One set of laws says you can't go faster than x mph. The other says you're breaking the law if you aren't actively getting out of the way of people going much faster than x mph.
We need to pick one law or the other. Having both laws in place is a recipe for car accidents.
However, I don't agree that the person going the speed limit is the cause of an accident. If someone going 15 over collides with someone going the speed limit, it's victim blaming to say the person going the speed limit was at fault.
Zncon · 2 points · Posted at 19:46:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I didn't quite go into this, so let me clarify. I would say the slow driver is the cause, but they are not at fault. Other drivers who are likely to pass them in an unsafe manner would be at fault.
If everyone who wanted to get around them slowed down to match them, the difference in speed would be eliminated and the danger reduced. However we're butting heads with human nature here, so I can't say that's a real solution.
As to the contradicting laws, they really don't. You can travel at the speed limit in the right most lane without violating any law. The laws which cover moving out of the way for faster traffic are not concerned about overall speed. On a 70 mph road, a car traveling at 40 mph is required to move over for one traveling at 50 mph.
Here's how you resolve it: lane position trumps speed. Speed is arbitrary up to a certain point, as most highways are designed to be safely traveled at faster than posted speed by vehicles with less capability than the one you're driving now. Lane position is NOT arbitrary. You're either in that lane, or you're not. The posted speed is a law, yes, and many choose not to follow it. It's your duty, however, to create the safest environment for all drivers regardless of the laws they choose to break. Allowing others passage with a minimum number of required lane changes and potential vehicular hazards is safer for both you and the speeder, and therefore leaving the passing lane open what you should do in the situation if possible.
You're arguing that since it's illegal for a person to impede you from doing something illegal, you're in the right and they're in the wrong. It's an incoherent argument.
No, it's not, because it doesn't matter what they are doing. Nothing gives you a right to impede them.
Speed isn't dangerous. Speed disparity is. By not moving over, you are making the situation less safe.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 18:47:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If there's a large disparity between the speed of two cars where one car is going the speed limit, and one is going well over the speed limit, how can you argue that the car going the speed limit is the one making the situation dangerous?
The safest response is to move out of their way. Creating a situation where they have to brake or switch lanes is not prudent driving.
You are not the police. You have no legal authority to regulate their speed.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:03:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I understand that it's safer to move out of the way. That's not what I'm arguing. My arguments are 1) we shouldn't have traffic laws that are in conflict with one another, and 2) that it's incoherent to argue that since someone stopping you from breaking the law is illegal, they are in the wrong and you are in the right.
As for "You are not the police. You have no legal authority to regulate their speed." that's the exact argument someone going the speed limit in the left lane could give in response.
No, because the law is: if you aren't passing you don't use the passing lane. Period. If you are going the speed limit in the leftmost lane and passing somebody, while frustrating sometimes, you're in the clear. If you're in the leftmost lane going the speed limit and not passing someone, you are breaking the law.
I get what you're saying, but you seem to be missing the reasoning behind the law.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:45:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I understand the reasoning behind the law. And if the "left lane is for passing" was the only law applicable to the situation I'd be completely fine with it. It's the fact that we have laws that conflict with one another that irks me.
What's the reasoning for saying that someone going 65 in a 55 can be ticketed for both going to fast and too slow?
Different times of day with different amounts of traffic. Going 10+ over is safer than the speed limit if that is the speed of traffic. You say you get it but aren't really showing it lol
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 00:01:50 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
The question should be "am I passing someone or not?" If you're passing someone you're fine. If you're not move over. Don't worry about speed or holding people up as long as you're actively passing. People will probably still get mad at you for passing too slow or whatever but fuck them. If you're passing you're good.
A lot of people always say "I was driving in the left lane because I was speeding, slow people shouldn't be in the left lane", that irritates me so much. idc if you're going 200km/h, if you aren't passing you move the fuck over.
Exactly. This actually leads to more traffic accidents than speeding, because drivers get stuck behind someone cruising in the left lane and drive more aggressively. Slower traffic keep right.
Mostly true, but this does not apply when you are on a highway that is packed to the point where all the lanes need to be full to best accommodate the traffic.
Sure, every single car on a packed rush-hour highway would love it if the left lane cleared out so they could pass everyone and have a chance to actually go the speed limit. It's not gonna happen and it's not against the law to stay in the left lane instead of trying to weave back and forth out of the already too full right lane.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:23:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You should not be going over the speed limit just to pass someone that is driving to the speed limit though
Depends on traffic. I'm near LA and if everyone here stayed in the right lane instead of using all the available lanes fully, it would take me 2 hours to drive 10 miles instead of only taking 1 hour to drive 10 miles.
You will find that laws differ from country to country and even state to state.
You will even find that some silly countries/states will have exits in the left hand lane.
That being said, your statement is largely true - just don't think it is universally true.
Yea ok well when we get 4 lane highways I'll do this until then I'm just gonna keep driving on the left because then I'd be weaving in an out of the right lane like a maniac which would be less safe than just sticking to the left.
My state used to post signs saying "Slow Traffic Keep Right". It didn't work, because the slow ones in the left land didn't think of themselves as "Slow Traffic." So they eventually changed the signs over to say "Keep Right Except To Pass." Still doesn't work - they're passing, sure, just 0.05 mph faster than the car to the right. Feh.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 16:28:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This should be higher.
kcjg8 · 0 points · Posted at 16:51:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I really wish this was enforced. I was on a good 30 mile drive the other day and the first 20 felt like forever because nobody would get over and I'd have to weave through traffic or get stuck behind two people going the same speed. The last 10 miles were like heaven cuz everyone got out of the way
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:38:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
kcjg8 · 1 points · Posted at 07:35:27 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
it shouldn't matter what i did with my time.... if you are in the left lane and think because you are going above the speed limit that you belong in that lane, you are wrong.... Even if you are exceedingly past the speed limit, you should be going to the right lane when given a reasonable chance. Take all other thoughts out of driving. Anything but self preservation is dangerous
It's not a US law, it's not even the law in the majority of states. Most states say it's ok to pass on the right if a car is turning left, or there are two or more lanes traveling in the same direction.
VokN · 0 points · Posted at 15:45:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I thought one of the big differences was that there is no lane discipline in the US compared to the UK etc.
The way I see it, driving in the left lane is acceptable if you're driving consistently at a plausible passing speed. That'll vary by location - in Ontario the standard I see is 20km/h above the speed limit.
I don't understand why everyone hates left lane drivers? First off it's not illegal where I am. Second the right lane is a nightmare to drive in. People love to come to complete stops in the right lane before making simple turn offs (with no single), come to a stop to wave a person in while making 20 cars behind them stop, and they love to suddenly leap into the right lane either from a driveway or from the left lane to make a sudden right turn (with no signal). Plus you have to watch for the guy who uses the shoulder as a lane cause he is turning right in a 1000 feet but doesn't want to sit in traffic before his turn. What problem am I causing by staying in the left lane away from that madness? I'm always trying to improve my driving so I'd genuinely like to know.
Could you explain to an uneducated idiot like myself?
Blarfk · 56 points · Posted at 17:44:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
For this example, I'm just going to make up numbers, but this is the general idea.
Say there is a 25% tax on income for $0-to $99,999, and a 50% tax on $100,000 and up.
If you make $125,000, you only pay 50% taxes on the $25,000 you made above $100,000, not your entire income. You pay 25% on the rest, just as everyone else would. This makes it so that you will never lose money by moving into a higher tax bracket, as some people believe, because you are only paying the higher percentage on income above that level.
Ah so the 90% is just the accumulated tax over your wages. So 25% on 0-99 and 30% on 99-110, etc. It's not literally "You are losing 90% of your income"
Blarfk · 23 points · Posted at 17:54:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Correct! A lot of people don't get this and think there are just straight brackets - that if you made $99,999 you'd only pay 25% and if you jump up to $100,000 you'd pay 50%. But the higher rate is only applied to the amount you make in that new bracket.
wahh · 1 points · Posted at 19:40:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you take a look at the history of tax bracket rates in the United States the top bracket, the rates got insanely high. It peaked at 94% in 1944 and 1945.
Worth noting that the upper tax brackets taxed a substantially higher percentile of income than they do today. It was also during wartime to pay off debts, but high upper-bracket taxes persisted for ~30 years following WWII.
At the start of JFK's presidency, the upper tax bracket was 91% on income above roughly $400,000 -- accounting for inflation alone, that would be roughly $3 million today.
When you account for both inflation and growing income disparities (what percentile that amount accounted for), it'd be around $45 million today if you contrasted 2017's CEO-to-median worker compensation with 1965's, or roughly $15 million if you contrasted 2017's top 0.1%-to-median worker compensation with 1965's.
The 1963 tax bracket taxed roughly 4,400 people at that rate. Today, that'd be ~7,500 out of a country of 325 million. If you stuck solely to the percentiles, it'd be income above roughly $7-8 million per year.
wahh · 1 points · Posted at 20:50:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Those are all good things to keep in mind, yes. However, I still think it's ridiculous that the rates ever got that high. Granted, most of the people earning anywhere near that found other ways to get around it, like paying themselves in stock options so they could be taxed at the much lower capital gains rate when they decided to cash in their stocks. I'm not entirely sure when that capital gains tax rate kicked in from a historical standpoint, but I have a feeling it was created to get around those rates.
Interestingly enough, capital gains tax rates were actually increased in the late 60s, 70s, and 80s following income tax cuts to account for revenue reductions.
They didn't start to be reduced until the late 90s and early 2000s, where a substantial amount of the rate was cut off, and a fair portion of our current deficit is blamed on those standard income and capital gains tax cuts that occurred in 1997, 2001, and 2003 preceding major federal spending increases (primarily DHS and Iraq+Afghanistan) heading into a major recession.
In response to the growing deficit through the Recession, they were raised slightly in 2010, 11, and 13.
Well to take the UK as an example, there's no income tax if you earn less than £11,500. Those earning between £11,500 to £45,000 are taxed at 20%, those earning £45,000 to £150,000 are taxed at 40% and it's 45% tax on those earning £150,000+.
Except that's wrong.
Let's say you earn £47,000.
The first £11,500 you earn is untaxed completely. Then your income between £11,500 and £45,000 is taxed at 20%; £45,000 minus £11,500 is £33,500, so the 20% tax is applied to £33,500 of your income.
And then for the final £2,000 of your income (your salary £47,000 minus the £45,000 that has already been accounted for above), the government takes 40% of this.
So instead of paying 40% tax on your £47,000 salary (which is £18,800), you actually pay £6700 + £800 = £7500.
jogur · 1 points · Posted at 18:19:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If earnings above 100k are taxed 90% what is the point of even trying to earn more?
jivow · 3 points · Posted at 18:40:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There isn't much - that's the point.
In theory you will either give most of those earnings to the country to help it develop or give it to your employees or re-invest it. In theory the idea is to tax earnings in such way to prevent money hoarding (In practise such taxes aren't applied.)
You just found the reason that almost all country's tax brackets top out at roughly 50%. The only cases in which 90% tax brackets were used they were either paired with ridiculous deduction schemes or it was during a time of war.
I know right?! How does that income change your lifestyle at all really? By that point it's just extra 0s on your bank balance rather than anything that changes the way you live.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 19:51:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Great point. I wear a 32C and while some/most people think a C cup breast is pretty big, I am most definitely NOT big-breasted. The cup size varies with the band size - a C cup on a 32C bra is way smaller than a C cup on a, say 38C bra.
Thank you! I just explained to someone this morning that 32E is not porn star huge or obese sizing. Media tells us that D and DD are YUGE knockers, and I'm like...those girls' bras are not a D. D-cups are not enormous if fitted correctly.
D-cup is big if the band size is at least 36. D-cup is enormous if the band size is e.g., 42, but with a band-size of 42, she'd be a "whole lotta woman". 42-39-56... you could say she's got it all!
Nah, I'm just weird and like seeing things like this sub where you can find other people to figure out life and feel unsafe because of other people's shitty behavior. I know it comes hand in hand with the territory but his "Don't want comments, don't post" shit makes me want to hit my head against something hard.
feel unsafe because of other people's shitty behavior.
Unsafe?
Now I'm imagining some neckbeard who thinks it's cool to comment like that on a bra size subreddit crawling through a monitor to attack someone like the girl from The Ring...
Can confirm. I moved to Michigan last year and hear "ruhf" all the time. Sounds odd to my Eastern ears, though my mother is from Ohio, so I've heard it pronounced that way before. (Still getting used to "parking ramps" instead of parking garages, though that seems to be more a Michigan thing than Midwest).
Edit: a word
Baynex · 2 points · Posted at 19:39:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I've lived in metro detroit nearly my whole life....what the hell is a parking ramp?
In West Michigan, it's what they call a parking garage structure. Took me a while to figure this out when I first got here (I was literally looking for some kind of off-ramp).
Edit: Did a quick check, turns out it's also a common expression in Buffalo, Wisconsin and other parts of the Upper Midwest. Though other parts of the Midwest call them "garages" like everyone else. https://www.waywordradio.org/parking-garage-parking-ramp/
Because in a majority, people consider their accent to be normal, and will label other accents as such. For example, in America, people may label accents as British/Australian/Canadian, whereas in England, people would divide the accents by region, and say that people from America have accents instead.
People think "That doesn't sound like me". It is, just your brain removes the accent. And because it knows what yours sounds like, it does the same for people with similar accents to yours (i.e. your town/state/region)
kinrif · 3 points · Posted at 22:16:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
While this effect might exist in small degree, It isn't the reason we sound different. The bones in our head transmit the sound from our vocal cords directly to our ears so we hear both the sound others do and a more resonant deeper sound which both intermix to result in the sound of our own voice.
People know when they have an accent. We can feel ourselves pronouncing words in different ways. We can learn a new accent, or try to eliminate the old by changing our pronunciation to one less distinctive. If we could not determine our own accent, none of that would be possible.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 18:13:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yea I'm still iffy on the subject. I was raised in Los Angeles, and I moved to Southern Louisiana when I was 20. Have lived here 20 years now, I've never noticed anyone's accent being much different than what was in Los Angeles. What I do notice, is people are more upbeat when they talk about things, which may be mistaken for an accent. /shrug.
And even down here, I've never heard someone talk about a Chicago, or LA, or New York accent..
You still have an American accent though. Any English speaker from outside the US will identify it instantly, with perhaps some difficulty separating it from Canadian.
Yeah. We're the ones that don't say sorry, because...we're not.
kinrif · 1 points · Posted at 22:19:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I was born and reared in the States and both English and Australian people abroad have not been able to confidently identify an American accent in my case. They do however know that I do not have either an Australian or English accent.
I think regional accents are fading a bit as people move around a lot more and from the effect of most media using a very neutral accent to have broad appeal. Have you not met people who speak with a stereotypical Southern Accent? Talking to people from Louisiana I can definitely hear an accent distinct from what someone in California sounds like. Texans can also have fairly distinct accents, but again, since people from all over the country, and even the world, move to Houston for work, you get a lot of people with more neutral accents.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 21:57:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"Have you not met people who speak with a stereotypical Southern Accent?"
I really haven't. And I often try to pay attention to conversations in restaurants and bars, etc. because I've always been curious about accents and expected to hear a difference at least sometimes. They pretty much sound the same here as in LA, to me. I dunno, it's probably not worth having a lengthy discussion about, just one of those things.
Playing Breath of the Wild the other day, I was confused because all the speaking characters have accents except the Gorons. Then I realized no, they have California/western-American accents, and so do I, so I was just missing it.
Not sure why everyone else is European, but the Gorons are valley dudes, but okay.
[deleted] · 5 points · Posted at 18:26:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I posted this before, but when I was a telephone operator I got a BT (UK) operator who said in a perfect London accent, "Ma'am I do not speak with a 'British Accent'." It was adorable and me and my customer started laughing and the guy seemed annoyed but of course he was too British to complain about it.
[deleted] · 13 points · Posted at 17:23:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
efskap · 13 points · Posted at 18:15:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
boy it really rattles my bones when someone says that african american vernacular (or god forbid "ebonics") is "wrong" English.
As if English is just one monolithic dialect rather than a grouping of similar mutually intelligible dialects.
Maybe a few hundred years ago it would be fine. But the English language is now stanardized. It is wrong english, as its grammatical structure and spelling is completely different from taught English. If you took west virginian hillbillies and listened to them talk, you wouldnt say they had a peculiar dialect, you would say they were uneducated and possibly not intelligent.
....which is wrong. The whole point of teaching standardized grammar and spelling to encourage homogenity, allowing others to communicate easily, and prevent drastic, local changes of the language. This "dialect" is fairly recent and has roots in celebrating uneducated vernacular, and misspelling not to celebrate diversity, but ignorance.
Sorry to belabour a point neighbour, but "colour" is a correct spelling of the word (grey is my favourite). I have a good sense of humour so no need to apologise.
Maybe a few hundred years ago it would be fine. But the English language is now stanardized. It is wrong english, as its grammatical structure and spelling is completely different from taught English. If you took west virginian hillbillies and listened to them talk, you wouldnt say they had a peculiar dialect, you would say they were uneducated and possibly not intelligent.
Maybe a few hundred years ago it would be fine. But the English language is now stanardized. It is wrong english, as its grammatical structure and spelling is completely different from taught English. If you took west virginian hillbillies and listened to them talk, you wouldnt say they had a peculiar dialect, you would say they were uneducated and possibly not intelligent.
Maybe a few hundred years ago it would be fine. But the English language is now stanardized. It is wrong english, as its grammatical structure and spelling is completely different from taught English. If you took west virginian hillbillies and listened to them talk, you wouldnt say they had a peculiar dialect, you would say they were uneducated and possibly not intelligent.
Maybe a few hundred years ago it would be fine. But the English language is now stanardized. It is wrong english, as its grammatical structure and spelling is completely different from taught English. If you took west virginian hillbillies and listened to them talk, you wouldnt say they had a peculiar dialect, you would say they were uneducated and possibly not intelligent.
Maybe a few hundred years ago it would be fine. But the English language is now stanardized. It is wrong english, as its grammatical structure and spelling is completely different from taught English. If you took west virginian hillbillies and listened to them talk, you wouldnt say they had a peculiar dialect, you would say they were uneducated and possibly not intelligent.
Maybe a few hundred years ago it would be fine. But the English language is now stanardized. It is wrong english, as its grammatical structure and spelling is completely different from taught English. If you took west virginian hillbillies and listened to them talk, you wouldnt say they had a peculiar dialect, you would say they were uneducated and possibly not intelligent.
Maybe a few hundred years ago it would be fine. But the English language is now stanardized. It is wrong english, as its grammatical structure and spelling is completely different from taught English. If you took west virginian hillbillies and listened to them talk, you wouldnt say they had a peculiar dialect, you would say they were uneducated and possibly not intelligent.
Maybe a few hundred years ago it would be fine. But the English language is now stanardized. It is wrong english, as its grammatical structure and spelling is completely different from taught English. If you took west virginian hillbillies and listened to them talk, you wouldnt say they had a peculiar dialect, you would say they were uneducated and possibly not intelligent.
Maybe a few hundred years ago it would be fine. But the English language is now stanardized. It is wrong english, as its grammatical structure and spelling is completely different from taught English. If you took west virginian hillbillies and listened to them talk, you wouldnt say they had a peculiar dialect, you would say they were uneducated and possibly not intelligent.
I don't want to be this guy, but I have to....ebonics can get incredibly stupid...it reminds me so much of meme language and whatever they speak in 1984, Newspeak(?)
With that said, I try not to care because I can be stupid as well. I guess I just want people to put in a bit of an effort rather than sound like a bafoon. And I'm not being racist, soooo many white people in my area have picked up that vernacular...it's fucking embarrassing to think we are speaking a similar language.
efskap · 4 points · Posted at 18:42:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It might look stupid from the oustide, but AAVE is complex in its own way, with a lot of interesting features.
I find it interesting but little more than that. Plus I grew up around it and continue to be surrounded by it. It's not just stupid from the outside; it's demeaning to their personhood and idividuality.
Every language and "spin off" is quite compelling to me but that doesn't mean I have to like it, ya know? It sounds like someone scratching metal across a chalkboard. Same with meme words. I hate it. It's the degradation of the English language in my eyes. However, this day was bound to pass and my generation has done jack shit to educate themselves so I'm quite sure it's downhill from here on out.
efskap · 5 points · Posted at 18:58:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oh yeah, of course you don't have to like it!
imo it's just good to be aware that while it may seem like degradation due to being simpler in some areas, it has evolved complexity in other non-obvious ones.
Maybe a few hundred years ago it would be fine. But the English language is now stanardized. It is wrong english, as its grammatical structure and spelling is completely different from taught English. If you took west virginian hillbillies and listened to them talk, you wouldnt say they had a peculiar dialect, you would say they were uneducated and possibly not intelligent.
Maybe a few hundred years ago it would be fine. But the English language is now stanardized. It is wrong english, as its grammatical structure and spelling is completely different from taught English. If you took west virginian hillbillies and listened to them talk, you wouldnt say they had a peculiar dialect, you would say they were uneducated and possibly not intelligent.
Maybe a few hundred years ago it would be fine. But the English language is now stanardized. It is wrong english, as its grammatical structure and spelling is completely different from taught English. If you took west virginian hillbillies and listened to them talk, you wouldnt say they had a peculiar dialect, you would say they were uneducated and possibly not intelligent.
Maybe a few hundred years ago it would be fine. But the English language is now stanardized. It is wrong english, as its grammatical structure and spelling is completely different from taught English. If you took west virginian hillbillies and listened to them talk, you wouldnt say they had a peculiar dialect, you would say they were uneducated and possibly not intelligent.
Often times, the midwestern accent is the easiest for everyone to understand. That's why national news sounds like midwesterners. I once had to translate an English accent to midwestern for some Germans to understand.
No accent drops panties in its home region. Except that sweet southern drawl.
Jpsh34 · 2 points · Posted at 18:04:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I have an accent but it's indiscernible, I grew up in Canada, on an Indian reservation with strong New York ties and have lived in the south for 13 of my 33 years, and another of those years in Philadelphia. It's a mesh of three or four different areas and I've found that I pick up some aspects of the accent everywhere I go.
Maybe a few hundred years ago it would be fine. But the English language is now stanardized. It is wrong english, as its grammatical structure and spelling is completely different from taught English. If you took west virginian hillbillies and listened to them talk, you wouldnt say they had a peculiar dialect, you would say they were uneducated and possibly not intelligent.
And your native accent doesn't sound like you think it does. I used to be amazed at British, Aussie, a nd Kiwi actors who could" flatten out their voices to sound so American." Turns out the north American accents aren't "flat."
Gnash_ · 2 points · Posted at 19:06:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What they really mean is their accent is (to them) the most common one.
For I, foreigner, most of the english I hear comes from socal or the bay area. Thus everyone that has an accent that's different to their seems to speak in an odd way to me, thus I'd say they speak with an accent. It's just because it's different to the one I'm most accustomed
What I think you mean is they don't have a more localized accent. Some Americans can sound like they are from anywhere in America. I grew up in Florida (I'm Cuban) and Texas for a long time and yet I have neither accent from either place. I'm a voice actress and can turn various accents on if I want, but without that I have a base "American accent" that could be from anywhere.
I think thats what most people are saying (at least in the US) when they say they don't have an accent.
They usually mean "I wish I could properly emulate accents other than my own."
kinrif · 2 points · Posted at 22:12:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
An accent is "a distinctive mode of pronunciation of a language, especially one associated with a particular nation, locality, or social class." If a person does not speak with a distinctive mode of pronunciation of a language, they do not have an accent.
If I were to land in Tokyo tomorrow ( As an American from the Midwest, I understand I'm sort of beating the dead horse as far as examples goes) and started speaking to other locals who spoke English to the point we can both participate in a fluent conversation-to them-wouldn't my accent sound distinctive? These Tokyo locals who speak English from most likely a British textbook and method would see my average, ordinary standard American English as something different, from the way I pronounce my growling R's and explosive T's and so on. The point is to some, my accent is different from theirs and to others my accent is familiar but regardless of whose perspective I'm using, I still do have an accent.
Also you said that accents are associated with a particular nation, locality, and/or social class. There is no one on this earth who couldn't fill that out on a clipboard as those criteria is, in one shape or another, a part of everyone.
TLDR; no one is neutral and a neutral and accent-less way of speaking English doesn't exist. Sure there is a social agreed-upon prestigious accent that's valued higher than other but whatever. The reason people doubt the existence of accents in some people is because of perspective. If I lived in a small town my whole life and everyone spoke the same, I would hear no accent. If someone else from a completely different place visited my town, they would perceive my English to be different from theirs and label it as an accent.
kinrif · 1 points · Posted at 05:12:40 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I hear that, and I certainly agree that comparative differences will always exist. Where we disagree is that I suggest that there is a intonation that the person in Tokyo will not be able to associate with any particular region. I realize that this is simply becoming a question of semantics, but if regional variation from commonly accepted educational standards is minor enough, I would call that "no accent". i.e. an accent that is so bland as to be indeterminable.
In other words, I feel an accent requires a home to be called such. Sounding weird is not enough to qualify. A lisp sounds different, but is not an accent. Why? Because it is not the result of regional variation. Likewise, as long as the individual idiosyncrasies of a person's pronunciation of their language is not tied to a particular region or regions, they do not constitute an accent.
Again, I absolutely agree that we all talk differently. At this point it's just whether or not that difference should always be called an accent.
Entitled old people don't understand inflation. And don't wan to.
They were making $35K a year in 1975, and they could afford a house. Now they're dumping on their daughter or granddaughter who's making $45K and can't afford a house. "I could do it, WHAT'S WRONG WITH HER?
Never mind that $35K in 1975 is $164K in today money, and the house would only cost $211K inflation adjusted.
These are mainly uneducated people -- my mother among them -- but they look down from ignorant heights of pure luck and choose to judge all around them. Try to show them facts? They don't want to hear it.
driago · 3 points · Posted at 20:05:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This should be at the top.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:44:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A lot of these guys are Silent Generation guys. Especially 75 and older. The economy was booming, there was a labor shortage. All they had to do, to do well, was show up to work and do what they were told. Edit: a fair number may have been in the service, but few of them went to war unless they volunteered. Korea was too early for most of them, Vietnam a bit on the late side.
You can blame some boomers, of course, and some Xers. Anybody who had it better than you do but won't admit it, even to themselves.
I realize that "all boomers" are a big, fat easy target. But so are "all millenials" for other types of sport, and isn't fair either way.
[deleted] · 5 points · Posted at 19:06:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I mean the only reason I throw Boomers under the bus is because they are guilty of doing the same to Millennials for pretty much everything. Whatever, they're not going to be a problem in 20 years anyways.
Just, get it straight. If somebody around 50 is giving you shit for not being the success his noble self is, that's an Xer now.
We all got screwed, btw, or at least the ones who played to straight and didn't want to screw anybody else. They changed the rules in the '70s -- taxes on the rich went down, anti-trust enforcement stopped, and all the money drained out of the government recirculation machine and into a few private hands. And jobs were allowed to leave, and more foreign goods allow to come in buy rules that could be twisted to say that a product made overseas was really "American."
If it makes you feel any better, 50 percent of boomers -- and we're all over 55 now -- are facing retirement with basically no savings. They're going to start crashing and burning before you even generate much gray hair.
What happened is above generations; it was a 40-year-ago sell-out, and some people from every generation signed on. People in your own generation are throwing you under the bus right now.
What I'm 'celebrating' is the lucky ones being too dense to realize that they were simply lucky, and born at the right time.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:44:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Some were lucky, some weren't. I'm in my early '60s. My wife is 70 -- the earliest boomer that could possibly be. She had some ups and downs along the way. We both still work. She maxed on out on Social Security and is going to start taking it, but when we looked at what we'd be losing in income and what she'd be paying for Medigap and Medicare (BTW, Medicare payments are going up for everybody who files after 2016 with little rise for those already onboard, yeah, they're luckier all right), she decided to keep working. Till she drops. She almost "dropped" last year. It's scary up here.
There were also more government subsidies on things. For example, the old guys who boast about putting themselves through college just working at McDonald's. Well yeah...since the government was picking up 75% of the bill.
Then they voted to end most of those subsidies because herp derp privatize free market muh liberty I got mine so fuck you etc. And have the audacity to tell us to pull ourselves up by boostraps that they voted to shorten.
There were more government subsidies because of New Deal reforms that set ultra-high tax rates on wages above a certain amount, and also on capital gains. That began to be undone in late '70s -- I don't think it waited for Reagan, not sure -- and also certain programs started to cost more because people were living longer.
I'm not contradicting you at all, rejiggering the tax code and privatize/free market crap are just different sides of the same con.
Nah, it came home to me when I paid $150 for an alternator. I had in my head that they should cost around $40. And they did, in the late 70s when I first began repairing my own car.
hit1tou · 16 points · Posted at 17:25:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's long been true, the goal of newspapers and TV was always "selling eyeballs" to the advertisers.
djs758 · 1 points · Posted at 22:55:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But what facebook does is different. They collect all the data you provide to target you. If you dig deep enough in the settings, you can find and print your advertising profile.
I know a guy who writes software for a firm which gathers personal information for tracking and marketing. He says "Never mind the NSA, we know far more about you! It's scary how much we can determine just from purchases and public records."
Just like every other online service that is free. Well, in fact, the actual goal is to make money any way. That's what businesses do. That's how they employ people.
djs758 · 1 points · Posted at 01:40:56 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sure, but Facebook has been known to do weird experiments on its users, like seeing if they can alter peoples' moods by showing a series of negative timeline content--then if you can force sadness, you can probably trigger certain people to buy junk food.
They aren't just selling ads. They are engaging in weird social engineering experiments.
Yeah, you hear those things about Facebook all the time. Though I guess it's not entirely different with YouTube, Google, Amazon, etc. Maybe even Reddit? :)
Kschl · 13 points · Posted at 17:29:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you're going slow get the f... out of the left lane and let people pass
I don't think it's 90% BUT it only takes 1 of them to foul things up for everyone else. Even if it's 10% you will encounter several every drive. Sad truth.
Early this year I traveled to Wisconsin to visit my brother in the hospital. I was staying with family in one city while he was hospitalized in the next city over, so it was a forty-five minute drive to go see him. His ex was taking his son up daily for visits, so she offered to drive me as well.
She would sit in the left lane. And when people were tailgating because she was going slow in the passing lane, she would get angry and deliberately block them. I never want to ride in a car with her again.
Kschl · 1 points · Posted at 05:47:38 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
She's the type of person I was talking about. Why do they feel they're entitled to the left lane.
I don't know. I asked, and all I got was a vague answer about not caring about them, which doesn't explain, to me, why she'd be actively harmful to them.
Kschl · 1 points · Posted at 07:20:59 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just plain old selfishness
[deleted] · 93 points · Posted at 14:49:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The problem is that, on the face of it, it seems like it makes sense to use it the way most people do. "Begs the question" sounds nearly identical to "leads me to ask..." It doesn't at first glance seem like you're talking about circular reasoning.
Except that in modern english the archaic, philosophical meaning of question begging is deprecated. The majority of speakers mean and understand it to mean raises the relevant question.
I usually hear it used as a cool showy synonym for "indifferent", which is funny to me because these fumbled attempts to sound smart practically scream the contrary.
I don't really understand why 'beg the question' became the go-to name for that logical fallacy, it isn't very intuitive to me at all and alternatives like 'assumes the conclusion' or 'assumes the original point' make much more sense.
This comment really begs the question as to why we should care about a relatively niche use of a phrase when another meaning, which is still a technically correct use of the words, has become much more widely accepted.
It is nowadays usually used as "that raises the question..." which is technically incorrect. The phrase refers to a logical fallacy where you assume the answer in the argument or question.
However, this is one of those phrases that will soon have both meanings simply because so many people use it incorrectly that it is commonly understood that way.
Should be used to indicate a drivers intentions and is NOT for asking permission to change lanes. Any hesitation or uncertainty by the lane changer is bad form and creates more animosity or aggression than not using the turn signal in the first place.
On the other hand I often find people speeding up as soon as I signal that intention to change lanes, and if I didn't hesitate I'd end up in a traffic accident.
I'm also in Jersey, but I grew up in Kentucky where lack of courtesy towards other drivers is just plain rude. And also there's a ton less people so drivers can get away with being less aggressive.
Ah well hello neighbor. My comment was mostly tongue-in-cheek. I lived 35 years of my life outside of Jersey and I do agree. I still love the shocked look on peoples faces when you voluntarily let them merge into traffic or other random considerate acts.
I've always said, Situational Awareness is the most valuable skill you can have when driving anywhere.
When the stock market tanks for a day or 2 or even a couple months the easiest thing to do is nothing. You don't lose till you sell or the company goes out of business.
Exactly. I hear it from people all the time. Stock market crashed and I lost all my money. Can't trust anyone these days... it's like. Wait a day or 5 and see if it comes back.
eazolan · 1 points · Posted at 17:34:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My friend said that. Because he had all of his stock purchased through the company plan. Discounted company stock.
Then with the housing crash, the company went out of business.
Well yes. If he had Circuit City stock he is SOL now. However any financial planner is going to say not to put all your eggs in one basket in case the company shits the bed.
jbaird · 1 points · Posted at 18:25:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
either do nothing or buy more since everything is cheaper now :)
The concept of "marginal." For example, I was guilty of and knew people who were afraid of making more money because then their tax liability would be higher and they would actually make less money.
No...the marginal tax is the tax on the NEXT dollar you earn, not the entire amount of your earnings.
Same with marginal profit...it tends to increase as volume goes up (assuming no other changes).
The F35 cost a bunch of money per unit, so they reduce the order, and surprise, surprise it costs more per unit!
NO! There are up front costs divided over the number of planes produced. The money is already spent, might as well run the assembly lines a bit and get something out of it.
A lot of people don't understand the National Not Call Registry does not stop scammers. Which is also makes me realize how many people don't recognize the scammers that are calling them.
Yes it does. The 2nd car, instead of sitting in line, is ordering food. The kitchen receives the order faster and starts making it sooner, so the car has to wait less time at the pickup window, which means the cars behind them get to the window faster, etc.
If you look at the whole picture, it's definitely speeding things up. It also helps reduce the traffic congestion in the parking lot that sometimes happens when a place gets busy.
Spazmer · 3 points · Posted at 17:03:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Was going to say the same thing. Say you order 20 chicken mcnuggets, they probably won't have that much ready. So with 2 lines your order is taken earlier and they can get your nuggets in the fryer and maybe have it ready by the time you're at the window, instead of sending you to the waiting spots.
It's probably to keep the line from being backed up into the road/parking lot and make the line appear shorter so that people will stop instead of looking for someplace else to eat.
I pulled in front of a cockknob who was doing this. He got so pissed and I just laughed and ignored him.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:43:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I do this just because I always end up behind some shithead that decides to take 25 minutes to order. I also regularly submit complaints about the damn system in hopes that they will get rid of it some day.
If you shuffled a deck of playing cards, say roughed them up on a table or something, picked a card placed that card face up, picked another card placed it face up, etc etc by the time you have got to the end of the deck the chances are that you have picked them in an order that no one in the history of the world has ever done EVER.
You should surround yourself with the emotions you want to feel. Want to be happy? Be friends with the class clown! Want to be depressed? Preach about how your depression is stopping you from doing stuff. Knowing you have depression and admitting it is important, but you don't want to have a label that says I'm depressed. Having depression as part of your identity is a stupid fucking idea, it cements the fact that you're depressed in your brain.
If you're wondering how to type it, i am on mobile so i just hold the n button down and it pops up. If you're wondering how to say it, it is basically "ny" instead of "n"
.....and it's Puh-TIN not POOH-TEEN. Yet "I'd like a poutine" at the drive through is met with "Huh? OH YOU MEAN POOH-TEEN!" No. No I actually DON'T mean that at all. YOU are a POOH-TEEN. I'd like fries with gravy and cheese curds.
While we're at it, the Núñez last name isn't just pronounced Nunes, you animals. There's a famous government oficial that has that last name and grates my ears to hear everybody mispronouncing it.
Oh man, tourists and enlisted folks trying to pronounce our Hispanic or Native (Kumeyaay, I believe, is our local tribe?) inspired street and place names.
"It's on... Jam-ah-ka"
"You mean Jamacha? ("Ham-ih-Shaw")
Had a lady on the phone from the east coast, looking at google maps and having trouble pronouncing "Pomerado" and "Poway"
At work we label the boxes of chips so we know which box is which brand/flavor, and one time I got to work after the truck dropped off the shipment and one of my coworkers wrote "halapeeno".
THIS is the part a lot of people don't seem to understand! If you get there at the same time, you yield to the person on your right. If you are the person on the right, go!
ms4720 · 28 points · Posted at 14:12:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Credit card debt
[deleted] · -6 points · Posted at 15:13:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Credit card debt is simple. Do not look at the total due unless you have a surplus of capital. Look at the minimum payment and ask yourself, how much extra can I afford to spend? IF the answer to that question is "quite a bit" then you simply spend what you are comfortable spending on the credit card.
If not, then pay the minimum to keep the account current until you can afford to pay extra.
The goal is to get the number down to a point where you can pay it off with your tax refund. (For middle class people that is.)
I'll make credit card debt even more simple. Don't spend more money than you have and you won't have credit card debt.
The goal is to get the number down to a point where you can pay it off with your tax refund.
The goal is not have any credit card debt because you're not a total idiot and can afford to pay off your credit card in full every month by not spending more than you have.
Also, you should aim to have as small a tax rebate as possible. (Just make sure you don't owe enough to have a penalty.) Having a large rebate just means you gave the government an interest-free loan. Waiting to pay off an interest-bearing loan with money that you let the government hold onto for free is doubly reckless.
Having a large rebate just means you gave the government an interest-free loan
Not entirely true. You pay your taxes regardless. If you don't you're committing tax evasion which is a felony. But you can write off expenses and other things as tax breaks, which increase your tax return compared to if you don't. So if anything, you want a large tax return due to expenses you're writing off.
I never said don't pay your taxes. It's not tax evasion unless you don't pay money you owe. It's possible to estimate how much you will earn, how much you can write off, and adjust your withholding and/or estimated taxes appropriately. It's perfectly legal as long as you end up paying as much as you owe.
It's possible to estimate how much you will earn, how much you can write off, and adjust your withholding and/or estimated taxes appropriately
Like when I get paid I can adjust how much of my taxes I pay? That's something I can do compared to them just ripping out a chunk of each paycheck for taxes? Have I been living in the dark?
Use the worksheet when filling out your W-4. It will guide you through how many allowances you can claim based on your expected deductions. (Each allowance you claim will result in less money being withheld.) It seems a lot of people don't bother using the worksheets and just claim allowances for themselves and their dependents.
I think it was more about "don't get into CC debt in the first place". Credit cards are a terrible source of financing in most cases, unless you have a special intro APR. I would argue that if you have CC debt, you will never have surplus capital until it is paid off, because any extra spending that you think you can afford will cost you several times over in interest.
I disagree. Do not ever get into any credit card debt unless you have no reasonable alternative. If you have to eat nothing but rice and beans for a week, do it. If you have to borrow from family, do it.
Credit card debt is just stealing for your future self. It is almost never a good decision.
A mortgage can be a good decision, as long as you don't go anywhere near the max loan that the bank is willing to give you. That's the point where the bank just barely thinks you can make the payments.
Do NOT borrow from family or friends. That's how you end up losing loved ones, especially if you can't get your shit together.
You can use credit cards, but make sure you keep a close eye on your income and expenses and don't spend more than you can pay off.
It's okay to borrow towards the max if you are confident that you can pay it back on your current income. My husband and I got the max mortgage that we could get, but we knew for a fact that we could handle the expense, especially since it was cheaper per month than renting, which the loan providers did not take into account.
But yes, if you can keep yourself out of CC debt by eating cheap food and going without comforts, do so. If you get into debt because you can't afford your standard of living, then you're not going to get out of debt until you change either your standards or income.
ms4720 · 1 points · Posted at 15:46:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No the goal is to pay it in full every month, you are throwing away about 20% in interest on that debt a year.
[deleted] · -7 points · Posted at 17:28:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You gain more credit when you pay interest. Also if you break it up into smaller chunks, you end up not throwing yourself into the danger zone, financially. If you have to open a credit line of 1k-2k, it is better for your credit to pay if off over the course of 6-8 months. If you pay if off in 3, it helps your credit yes, but not nearly as much as paying the higher interest fees do.
That sounds like terrible advice. Credit card debt is incredibly expensive to carry. That kind if thinking just obligates people to a lifetime of debt payments that will cripple their total lifetime worth.
I will agree that credit card debt is simple. Don't do it. Keep a card for your emergencies, sure. It's nice to have access to an emergency credit line. Otherwise do everything you can to avoid it. Unsecured credit cards should be the absolute last debt to take on, and the first debt to pay off.
[deleted] · -1 points · Posted at 17:26:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
HA. So you think that paying in excess a month and putting yourself in the danger zone, financially, is a good idea. My comment is for people already in credit card debt. Using this method I have been able to successfully pay off my credit cards several times.
My primary credit card has had its credit limit steadily increased to the point where it is at a scary limit that I NEVER want to hit.
This also has built up my credit in a large way. I can walk into a car dealership, put no money down and walk out with a reasonably priced car.
People with credit card debt should pay off their credit cards ASAP. Ideally, they would never get into credit card debt, but if they happen into it, they should prioritize paying it off.
I have also paid off my credit cards several times. Because I pay them off every month. Because I don't spend beyond what I can afford to pay off. My credit cards are for security, rewards, and emergencies. My credit lines add up to about $15k, but I'd never even consider coming close to maxing any of them out on anything but a necessary emergency (e.g. medical treatment for urgent issue).
I could also walk into a car dealership and get myself a reasonably priced car. However, I wouldn't do that. I can't afford it. I'd get a cheap used car and fix it up myself if it needs it, because I'd rather do some work myself than be in more debt. THAT is how you handle credit.
That's a great way to lose money to interest charges.
[deleted] · -1 points · Posted at 18:57:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Thats the problem with credit. If you do not pay interest charges, you do not build up much credit. Oh sure paying off your credit card each month will build it up, but keeping a rolling balance that you pay off at the end of the year will send your credit higher than you would doing it the other way.
You should not own any credit cards, you don't get how this works, regardless of what you think.
Why not ask about it rather than trying to pass off bad information? r/personalfinance has info in their sidebar plus a bunch of posts if you search through about how you are wasting your money. You should never pay interest on your credit card, it isn't helping you and only wastes your money.
Credit cards have the highest level of interest available. Always pay down your credit immediately if at all possible. If you can't afford to pay it off immediately, do what you can to reduce your spending until you can.
I'm an accountant/auditor and even most of us aren't 100% on tax stuff. But then I'll do volunteer taxes for lower income people (I believe it's free for anyone with annual household income below 63k) and legitimately all of them have no idea about any of it.
Tell me more about how you'll do my taxes for free. Does this take into account average income levels for the local area/state or is it nationwide? Or is it only available locally around you?
I believe it's a national association that does. Volunteer income tax association. VITA. People bring in their w2s and we enter their info into a program and figure out the best way for them to file to get the most back on their taxes while still being accurate. All they need to bring in is their SS card and their w2s and we do the rest.
Hmm... unfortunately for me, there are no nearby locations. Still, that's a pretty cool program when you consider H&R Block wants something like $150-$200 to process a w2.
You should take some time and learn to do them yourself. A majority of people do not have complicated taxes.
I've been fortunate enough that my dad forced me to do my own taxes since I started making enough to file. Since then, my taxes have become much more complicated, but since I was always doing them, it was just adding one or two new things/year. Now I pay someone to do them, but still review them for accuracy and/or learning anything new.
Stupid question time, one that I've never really thought to ask until right now: if the federal government witholds, say, $500 from my paychecks in 2017, do I get every dime of that back when I file my taxes in 2018?
Not exactly. So one misconception a lot of people have (and I'm not saying this is exactly yours, but will help illustrate it) is that your tax refund is part of what the rightful taxes you paid to the government, and that it's a good thing to get a big refund. What your tax refund is essentially, is a refund of overpaid taxes. So the larger your refund, the more you overpaid on what you really owed. Now most people are shit with money, so that large surplus is an awesome influx of money, but strictly economically speaking, with time value of money, a penny today is worth more than a penny tomorrow. So if you paid 500 in taxes last year. That doesn't mean you'll get 500 in a refund. But let's say you rightfully owe 500 last year, but due to missclassification, mistakenly wrong filing by your employer, or you, or whatever, you actually paid 750. You'd get approximately a 250 refund this year.
Edit: and to add, it can go the other way too. If you wrongly file for whatever reason and end up paying less than what you should have, you could owe money come 'refund' time. I was surprised to find a lot of people were surprised or shocked (but mostly enraged) that that was a thing when I have to tell them they owe fuckin 2 grand or something when they thought they d be getting money.
Does that help?
_bush · 0 points · Posted at 17:26:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Do you mean like your income tax refund is theft because it technically means you overpaid taxes all year?
If so, the government d idnt take money from you without asking, i.e theft. You or your employer enter the wrong Info somewhere, or classified wrong so you got taxed more than you should have. So it's a mistake more than theft. Incredibly frequent though because... 90% of people don't know how taxes work lol
_bush · 0 points · Posted at 19:38:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Nah I mean like the state is a criminal organization.
But thanks for explaining anyway. :3
Science isn't always right, and it's a very dangerous idea to give science the ultimate say in an issue. The application of new scientific knowledge is always exciting, and can lead to us making some truly awful mistakes (our understanding of genetics eventually led to the eugenics movement, and America fully participated. We even had "better baby" competitions, many people were deemed stupid enough to be forcibly sterilized).
Source: I do science, conservation science, and am really nervous at how eager the public is to just eradicate mosquito's using gene drives we release into the wild.
I understand your concern, on the other hand, mosquitoes cause more human deaths than any other animal. About 1 million people die each year from mosquito borne diseases.
I don't know if eradicating them is a good idea since lots of other animals eat them. But the idea of being free of mosquitoes is a tough one to let go.
Oh, I totally get it! I myself am very mixed about it, because I wholly understand that they are the number one killer of humans through disease transfer. I just can't help but have this very itchy feeling in the back of my head like, "there's gonna be some documentary in 50 years lamenting how stupid we were to think we could just disrupt the natural world in such a way".
All in all I'm just nervous. The science indicates we should be ok, but I can't help but feel like we're missing something.
Whoops. I actually debated which way it went for a minute, but ultimately realized it didn't matter in the grand scheme of casually writing on an internet board to anonymous people who I will never meet in my entire life.
Very wise. Aren't there more important things to worry about? Carry on, Internet stranger!
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:48:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I agree, I really dislike when people say "the science is settled" when it comes to things like vaccines. Not all vaccines are equal, some are for people and some for animals, some have come and gone from the market, to make a blanket statement that the "science is settled" is a mere attempt to halt discussion.
I think this is where it's important to delineate between refusing to acknowledge scientific consensus, and questioning the science to ensure all the facts are known. There is nothing inherently wrong with questioning the science to learn more about it. There is a problem with questioning the science, and denying the science with no empirical reason as to why.
For example, gene drives make me nervous as someone who does conservation. Saying that though, I lack much empirical evidence to the contrary, and therefore must roll with it until proven otherwise. I can call for more research, more evidence, and small scale application, but I can't say "We can't do this, because I'm nervous". At a certain point I need to go with the science, because that's all I have.
Vaccines are in this camp where it has been pretty thoroughly vetted, and we have many organizations devoted to ensuring they are safe. Can we question new vaccines, and ask to see the receipts of the research? Absolutely. Can we still refuse to accept them after doing so, and having no evidence of our own? You can, but it means you're doing so based off of gut instinct more than rational thought.
But yeah, no scientists worth their salt should ever say something is 100% certain. We simply can't know something as always being true. The best we can do is get to a point where we have not been proven otherwise, and thus should expect that this is the way it will likely be every time, and act accordingly.
The anti-science movement has spawned an equally troublesome "science can never be wrong" movement. I have a few friends that if a scientific paper is published on it, they consider it absolute and immutable proof. Or, conversely, if something does not have a scientific paper on it, it's undeniably false.
It never ceases to amaze me how people can put absolute faith in science when science is constantly proving itself wrong/incomplete (which is by design - build, tear down, revise, build stronger). We understand less than 1% of the universe, to put absolute, unquestioning faith in that is absurd.
Here's what I said to another commenter in the same vein as this thought:
I think this is where it's important to delineate between refusing to acknowledge scientific consensus, and questioning the science to ensure all the facts are known. There is nothing inherently wrong with questioning the science to learn more about it. There is a problem with questioning the science, and denying the science with no empirical reason as to why.
For example, gene drives make me nervous as someone who does conservation. Saying that though, I lack much empirical evidence to the contrary, and therefore must roll with it until proven otherwise. I can call for more research, more evidence, and small scale application, but I can't say "We can't do this, because I'm nervous". At a certain point I need to go with the science, because that's all I have.
Vaccines are in this camp where it has been pretty thoroughly vetted, and we have many organizations devoted to ensuring they are safe. Can we question new vaccines, and ask to see the receipts of the research? Absolutely. Can we still refuse to accept them after doing so, and having no evidence of our own? You can, but it means you're doing so based off of gut instinct more than rational thought.
But yeah, no scientists worth their salt should ever say something is 100% certain. We simply can't know something as always being true. The best we can do is get to a point where we have not been proven otherwise, and thus should expect that this is the way it will likely be every time, and act accordingly.
So yeah, find a middle ground. Question the hell out of science, but don't refuse to accept it for no good reason.
Even when something has been tested as true over and over, it's important not to accept it as absolute truth, just truth as we know it. You must always be open to the idea that something may not be exactly right.
My main annoyance is that I know someone that when a bleeding edge paper will come out on something like quantum physics, and he reads this article (NOT the study, because he doesn't understand it) and proclaims it as absolute truth. He's got a massive inferiority complex when it comes to intelligence, so he defends his position louder and louder until you just give up because it isn't worth it. Sadly, because of this person, I see a lot of similar people on social media with the same attitude.
Being someone who has done a lot of research during my university years, it really annoys the shit out of me. They never question methods or think "hey, where could this be flawed." Nope, it's all absolute, unquestionable truth now.
sneeden · 3 points · Posted at 19:43:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The public wanting to misuse a tool doesn't make science wrong. It makes the application of a tool wrong.
No, it doesn't make science wrong, but it does mean we can't just take science at face value. I've seen a number of people over the years on reddit get crazy upvotes when they say that politicians should just accept what scientists say, and implement what they tell them. I'm not saying that politicians shouldn't listen to science more, but I think people fail to recognize that science can make mistakes too. Science has told us plenty of times before that something was a certain way, and now we look back on it and shudder. There's no easy way to really go about that (we can't just ignore scientific consensus because it could be wrong), but we also can't become complacent to trusting science on every aspect of our lives.
I think you're completely misunderstanding my point here. We share common ancestors with the other great apes and some monkeys. We have all taken different evolutionary paths. For example, we diverged from our closest relative the chimpanzee about 7 million years ago.
My point was that people that don't understood evolution often say, "So we were monkeys and then we just changed to humans one day? Nah, don't believe it". This is a complete misunderstanding of how evolution works.
You're either misunderstanding my point or quibbling over semantics.
I've understood your point and I concur with what you explained ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ
been reading Sapiens lately where I discovered what you just explained and it makes a lot of sense.
Don't know if I can agree with you there. Our long-ago ancestors were not the same as modern monkeys, certainly. But they were probably sufficiently monkey-like to make the difference pretty academic.
Gilandb · 14 points · Posted at 17:37:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That freedom of speech only means the GOVERNMENT won't do anything against you. It doesn't mean you can spout your nonsense whenever and where ever you like with no consequences. Everyone (but the government) is free to ridicule you to no end.
"Free Speech" isn't something you're guaranteed in every social context. It only applies to government and law. Just because you can legally say something doesn't mean every individual has to shut up about it and give you a platform to say your stupid shit. Your rights are not violated because some people on reddit downvote your hateful nonsense into oblivion.
Exactly. People seem to forget that free speech and expression goes both ways. As much as someone has the right to say whatever they want w/o legal repercussion, we have the right to respond to it in whatever way we want as well (so long as it does not harm ofc). Booing, downvoting, ridiculing, dismissing, turning our back and not listening in response to something we don't like are all also forms of free speech/expression, that we have a right to. You can't express something in the marketplace of ideas, and then get salty that people have a certain response to you so you can cry censorship and oppression, that's their right as well.
The problem is what's being considered "hateful speech". Calling all Muslims terrorist can be construed as hate speech, but despite what Reddit believes, being for lower taxes, proper border security, and expanded gun rights is not hate speech. Being a capitalist is not hate speech. And being a straight white male is not hate speech. Yet it's considered hate speech by way too many millennials.
She literally defined basket of deplorables to mean "racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic" but if that is the definition of white male to you that might be a bit more of a "you" problem.
If they're differing opinions, they can't both be "correct". Use of the word "correct" implies that that they're both factual. Don't mix facts and opinions.
Well, if you believe the sky is blue, and I believe the grass is green, we both have completely different opinions, and they're both correct. So really the statement above is more or less a tautology (always true) as completely different statements are unrelated and hence have no reason they can't be simultaneously true.
So, what you probably really meant was that two contradictory opinions can be equally valid.
jivow · 0 points · Posted at 18:11:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
An opinion is something that isn't fact-based, it still may be correct or incorrect when you take the available facts/evidence into an account.
E.g. a person may think that educating people will lead to less crime - it they don't have any data to back it up it's just a belief - an opinion. But we do have such data and we do know that this opinion is correct while the opinion "educating minorities won't lower the crime-rates" is incorrect.
Validity of statement is entirely different thing.
I see you fall into the 90% that believes that opinions can be objectively true or false. If it can be objectively true or false, then it is not an opinion.
That depends on what you mean by "completely different".
IF you mean "proposition A and proposition B are in direct logical contradiction with each other", then no, they can't both be equally correct, since to say that they are in contradiction is precisely to say that both cannot simultaneously be true, one or both must be false.
But it's possible to have two propositions that are different but are not in direct contradiction with each other. This is trivially the case if the propositions have no relation to each other, but it can also be true even if they do. As a silly example, I propose that 4 is reached by adding 1 to 3, and you propose that 4 is reached by adding 2 to itself. The propositions are clearly related to the same subject, and are clearly different, but both are true.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:53:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you're inside a chronosynclastic infundibulum, yeah.
Love this one. I must have heard this from somewhere else before, because I've been using it for years now.
Two people give two seemingly opposing ideas as to the cause of something, and both being on the right track. I think it might have been SNAFU oddly enough.
It's wrong to say no true Scotsman, but I also think that people confuse group identity with essential-ism. While a certain characteristic may be associated with a group, it is not essential to being a part of that group. For instance, you could say that many CPAs are boring, but being boring is not essential to being a CPA.
The740 · 4 points · Posted at 17:49:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"Although golf was originally restricted to wealthy, overweight Protestants, today it's open to anybody who owns hideous clothing."
That's true. To an extent. Of course not everyone involved in Charlottesville was willing to cause harm to other people, but a good majority of them hold ideas that are harmful. A lot of people their were pro Nazi, pro segregation, and just flat out racist. Some were there thinking they were just supporting the idea of "southern heritage". But the problem comes about when you have people that see literal Nazis at their rally and just brush it off.
"Well I'm certainly not a Nazi. That guy isn't with me." But then do nothing while that person shouts their hate filled rhetoric right next to you. At a certain point a individual needs to look at what's going on around them to make a decision and take responsibility.
Do you continue to let hate mongers mingle with you because they share a few ideas with you? Or do you take a stand against them, and say "What you're doing is not okay." Just as all Trump supporters are not extremeist racists, not all liberals are extreme socialists. But, when you have members of specific hate groups trying to say "come on guys, we're not all bad." That is fundamentally flawed. I feel 100% certain that anyone who identifies as a Nazi, Facist, White Supremist, or White Nationalist is not a good person in any regard.
And here I thought all people with a car were evil...
But it's true though, if a criminal has a different religion or origin than most people its always mentioned in the news, which makes some people connect the crimes to the religion/origin. People tend to forget that all the other crimes where this is not mentioned are committed by natives, same color and religion as most people in their country.
Pretty sure when they're running down people with a car because their political ideology is to kill all non-white people that they're being representative of the entire group in that scenario.
That the world is bigger than the extent to which your senses can perceive, and that the small Earth alone is already too big and complex for one man to comprehend and truly understand. Not knowing this seems to be the main cause behind every intellectually stubborn and selfless attitude that exists.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:49:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
They had to get rid of most of the zipper merge lanes in my city because too many people were causing accidents trying to race up the ending lane to get ahead of as many cars as possible. And not just people in sports cars either, fucking UPS, garbage trucks, and school busses all caused massive pileups.
If you want to express compassion and empathy for someone who is experienced something unpleasant maybe you should increase your own social skills and find a better way to say it.
Most people know that in the context of something unpleasant, people say "sorry", i don't think thats uncommon at all. Yes you could say "i'm sorry to hear that" or "sorry for your loss" but i've heard people say the same thing in response to that, its all the same.
Making assumptions about what other people know is a great way to be a social failure.
It's a cop-out and a shortcut that prevents us from emotionally connecting. I've never heard that word used where one more tailored would not have worked better.
It's just the majority of people are linguistically lazy and common usage defines the language.
Depends on the circumstances if you're consoling someone for a lost loved one I would say: they will be missed and left the world a better place than they came into.
If someone has been injured in the distant past, instead of saying sorry it happened, compliment them on their coping.
If the hurt is more recent ask them if there's anything you can do to help.
If someone is overcome with the unfairness of the world then show your friendship with them by helping make it a little more just. Even a small effort will go much further than telling someone sorry.
I think i'll just stick with sorry, its not just defined as an admission of guilt, its a feeling of sympathy. So in the context of someone's loss, unless you murdered the person, I think its logical that someone saying sorry means that you are sympathetic, rather than admitting fault.
While the actual root means to be filled with sorrow, which is neutral, common English usage has its most frequent examples as apologies.
An apology is unnecessary if you are not culpable for the circumstances.
Nearly every parent hammers into their kids brain to go up and say I'm sorry to someone after committing offense, cementing the phrase as an admission of guilt.
Again it's common usage that defines the language. When you are sympathizing with someone's loss, in any case a trite phrase is hardly ever appreciated.
And I can't think of a more trite phrase than 'I'm sorry'
I mean, saying sorry as an expression of sympathy/condolences is common too, words can have multiple meanings, its the context and the way you say it that matters. So i think that saying sorry, like many people do, is perfectly acceptable, many people accept it, some people are more oblivious.
It is exactly common that's why it is trite and not super useful as you have pointed out because it can have multiple meanings.
What I'm saying is that a when a person experiences emotional suffering the last thing they want to hear is something trite or common or repeated by everyone.
I get what you're saying but theres only so many ways you can say it without it sounding like you're in a movie, trying to sound eloquent or intellectual, sometimes something basic can be enough.
Something to consider the people who write movie scripts get paid a lot of money to find the right words to fill the scenes. Movies are designed to make us feel emotions that's why we go to them.
I understand distrusting complicated phrases as genuine expressions of emotion, because if you aren't sincere they will come out like a rehearsed script line.
And eloquence at least as far as I've known as always been considered social positive, though in this anti-intellectual age who am I to say?
Maybe you should take a page from reddit and respond more like this:
Traffic is primarily caused by not allowing enough space between you and the car in front of you.
Valthek · 0 points · Posted at 23:38:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's mostly caused by humanity's terribly reflexes, taking far too long to go from sensory input to action. Keeping more space just compensates for that.
Drowning is the #1 cause of deaths in National Parks by a long shot. Flooding is the deadliest weather event in the US. And drowning causes over 360,000 deaths per year worldwide (which the WHO thinks may be a significant underestimate of what it actually is).
I'm not sure what you're getting at? Vegans are merely saying that you do not have to have moral agency or sapience, to deserve your freedom and to not be exploited.
Seriously, a large chunk of the populace don't seem to understand the basics of why we do things.
Yes, there is a wait. Either because: A) We literally have no room for you. B) We want to ensure good service by making sure we are not overloading servers with multiple tables at once. C) We have sat too many people in one sitting and the kitchen is going to be swamped with orders. Waiting 15 minutes in the lobby sucks, but waiting 45 minutes at your table makes you angrier. D) Even if we have the tables, we might not have the servers. 400 person restaurant, it's a Sunday. Even staffed correctly, we might have too many people come in at once, and service does degrade the more tables one server has. So we have you wait so you get good service.
You are not entitled to free food or drink. The industry has shifted towards giving out freebies to smooth out difficulties, but things cost money and margins are pretty crap in restaurants.
Literally how much time it takes to cook food. Yes, somebody's salad come out before your well done top sirloin. No, I cannot change the laws of thermodynamics.
Just general demeanor. Especially in America, there is an expectation of service staff to not just be polite and friendly, but to be over the top on both counts. Service with a smile is impossible to maintain 100% of the time, and it's unreasonable to expect it just because we interact with people more. Nobody expects construction workers to frame houses smiling all the time, why do service staff have to?
The customer wants what the customer wants, but sometimes the unwillingness to accept the reality of the how's and why's can get frustrating.
Thanks for taking the time to write all of this out. My first job was waiting tables, but even with the experience I got from it, I didn't fully understand some of this.
That's really interesting to read. Never having seen the inner workings of a restaurant, it can be hard to get your head around all that as a customer.
At the same time, I think it's not only that people just don't understand, it's entitlement, passive aggressiveness, misplaced infantile expectations that lead to customers' out of line behavior.
Then again, it's sometimes hard to tell whether a restaurant is actually trying to fuck you over, to make more money out of you, to privilege other customers, to make their own life's easier by being lazy.
Dig the line about thermodynamics. Be strong and set your boundaries well.
When somebody asks for a profession on an AskReddit, saying you are, "Not that profession but"
Is really fucking annoying and makes it difficult to find advise actually wanted
The740 · 2 points · Posted at 17:51:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Occasionally there's something worthwhile, where it's someone who's no longer part of that profession or is married to someone is part of that profession and thus is able to add something of value to the conversation.
Same as in US, but can go in reverse and change lanes without notice. Also, you cannot always land on the outer lane and you may do many, many rounds before you can get out!
[deleted] · 30 points · Posted at 14:28:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
CICO. Whenever I mention it on reddit, a bunch of people start telling me how it is easier to eat under your TDEE if you take care of certain stuff. Yeah, it is, and it does matter what you eat in regards of health and weightloss - but it is a fact that if you eat less calories than you burn for a prolonged period, you will lose weight. You can eat three candybars per day and lose weight, if those are the only thing you eat.
Hehe, yea I've experience this one for years. I used to be fat (325+) and then lost a bunch of weight and people always ask me "how did you do it" and my reply is always "eat less, exercise more." The look of disappointment on people's faces over the last 6-7 years that there's no secret diet magic has never failed to amuse me.
People aren't good about portions they actually eat, or entering all the snacks and bites and tastes they have during a day.
I use that occasionally if I need to get back on track.
wahh · 1 points · Posted at 20:13:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That is why I would weigh all of my food. When I tell people that they get annoyed and say that's stupid. Well, I lost 55 pounds doing that for most of it. I know it works. As a consolation I tell people they can approximate a serving size as being the size of their fist. I used that rule for the first 2-3 months of my weight loss journey, and it worked great. However, the more weight I lost I got more excited and wanted to be more exacting to see how things worked.
I kind of did a more regimented plan when I was first losing the weight, which I doubt would work for most people. I would basically eat the same thing for each meal every day for a week or weeks at a time. I might season it a bit different, but oatmeal for breakfast, snack or two during day, premade meal for dinner, and then nothing else. Works great as you don't have to think what to eat each day, or how much you've had cause it's the same for days/weeks.
I don't get bored with food much, cause I just like eating, so it worked for me. Now I generally just keep a rough mental track, or make sure I'm hungry and not just bored or anxious. Basically if I wanted food, I'd find something else to do for an hour, and if I was hungry then, then I'd eat.
Can't say enough for making 10-20 of the same meal on a weekend and freezing, then eating each night, and maybe put in different seasoning, or sauce, or make a different vegetable with it. Was enough variety for me. (Meals are usually a good grain: brown rice/quinoa etc, black beans or another bean, or chicken/fish. Or lentil soup, etc).
wahh · 1 points · Posted at 20:42:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm pretty much in the same boat as you. Meal prep Sunday.
Steel cut oatmeal with a serving of Quest vanilla milkshake protein powder mixed into it topped with crushed walnuts every morning for breakfast. Occasionally I would make egg white omelette muffins to mix things up.
Some version of seasoned chicken with brown rice and a spinach, bell pepper, onion, cherry tomato, and raspberry vinaigrette salad for lunch and dinner everyday for 6 months.
Now, now I'm doing the whole keep rough track of it and weigh myself every morning to keep myself conscious of how much I way. Although, I will admit I have really let my diet go the last month or two, and I really need to wrangle it back in.
When you're a former fatty who likes to eat, it is real easy to turn "ill just take a cheat day" into a cheat week, then cheat month. Is easier to just avoid everything and say "thanks but no thanks" to any food offered to you by others, cause it's real easy to slip back into old ways.
I've never been addicted to drugs or booze or anything else really, but I could very easily eat myself to death (and did for the first 28 years or so of my life) if I didn't mentally push it down every day.
wahh · 1 points · Posted at 21:37:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I totally agree with you about the addiction. Since everyone has to eat I think most people have a really hard time dealing with the idea that our society is largely addicted to food and even worse...junk food. I get ticked off every time I hear some story about how we need to fund research for some random cancer that affects 10 people in the world per year or paying so much attention to opioid addiction treatment. Most people don't even realize that a good chunk of the top 10 causes of death in the United States can be eradicated by proper diet. I assume it is because everyone likes eating food they'd rather just turn a blind eye to it all. Perhaps if we focused on that, we'd have a more heathy population that can contribute more money to those forms of cancer and addiction after we get our collective shit together.
At the same time, things people don't think about can make a huge difference. For example, stop drinking soda. If it's someone who drinks like 2-3 32ouncers from the gas station a day, they can see an incredible difference, just from cutting those out. Even if they do nothing else. Might seem like magic to them.
If it were a diet, the people who use it as the only guiding factor for their eating decisions would lose weight. But, in fact, they gain weight. Which makes it a shitty diet.
Right? I find it so frustrating when people complain how difficult it is to lose weight. Count your calories, do some math and eat a little less every day.
Used to work with a woman who went on a "special k diet" whereby she had a bowl of special k cereal for each meal. She complained she wasn't losing weight. Turns out she was eating approximately a box of it every couple of days instead of the prescribed 30 grams.
I find it so frustrating when people complain how difficult it is to lose weight.
Because it absolutely is difficult. I lost 70 pounds using calorie counting and exercise, but I still think it's difficult. Losing weight requires, to at least some degree, being hungry for some of the day. Being hungry is hard. Committing to stricter portion control is hard.
Just because losing weight is simple does not mean it is easy.
wahh · 1 points · Posted at 20:36:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Losing weight requires, to at least some degree
I guess I can only speak from my personal experience here. I'm a 5'11" tall 33 year old male. For 6 months I was living off 1200 to 1400 calories per day, and I rarely felt hungry. I knew that with how few calories I was eating I had to make sure that the foods I was eating had absolutely the most nutritionally dense stuff possible. When you're eating foods that aren't "garbage fuel" they help you stay feeling full for longer. My diet mainly consisted of various styles of prepared chicken, brown rice, quinoa, salads (with low calorie dressings), sweet potatoes, steel cut oatmeal (with flavored protein powder mixed in), and walnuts. I also made sure to drink plenty of fluids, and I basically cut dairy completely out of my diet.
With all of that said, I 100% agree with you that it is difficult. The concept is easy: "eat less, move more." However, maintaining the willpower and accountability to actually eat less and move more is much more difficult. It's difficult to spend the time preparing healthy meals for the week. I used to do the meal prep Sunday for the whole week. Now, I do Freshly meals for Wednesday Dinner through Friday lunch, and I meal prep for Monday through Wednesday lunch. Yes, Freshly is expensive, but I'd rather pay the extra money than spend the extra hours in the kitchen. It's also difficult maintaining the willpower and accountability when your friends all want to hang out eating and drinking at some unhealthy restaurant and give you funny looks and make snide comments when you tell them you pre-ate before coming out and only order a diet soda because you're trying to watch what you're eating.
That the current gluten free food hype is a huge boon for patients of coeliac disease.
I know that most people who eat gluten free don't need it, but please remember that coeliac disease, the actual sickness that has people rely on a gluten free diet or risk colon cancer, is a real thing. Those morons who think gluten is dangerous actually helped create a market for gluten free food that is great for patients of this disease, like my dad.
xraig88 · 4 points · Posted at 16:07:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Email addresses are NOT case sensitive. I work for a tech company and when customers provide me with their email addresses and start with “Capitol T, h ... “ I know I’m about to deal with some serious stupidity.
The United States Healthcare system. It makes sense that the average person would have a vested interest in its expansion, continuation or removal. However to recognize why or how any of that should be done, you really have to delve deep into the legalese abyss that is the Healthcare system.
Capitalism is a powerful tool that swings both ways. Hate that people need to work retail jobs on holidays? Don't go shopping on holidays. Tired of movie ticket prices increasing? Stop going.
Acronyms are only acronyms when the condensed letters can be pronounced as a word. The NAACP, FBI, CIA and NRA are not acronyms. They are initialisms. Radar, Laser and Scuba are acronyms.
Valthek · 1 points · Posted at 23:46:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So what happens when an initialism is used so much more than the actual words it stands for to the point where the initialism becomes a concept/word on its own. Is it an acronym then? Such as FBI or CIA. Both of those are just word the general public.
Don't engage in behaviors which, if everyone did them, would lead to chaos. Examples:
Littering
Driving/parking like an asshole (handicapped space when not, fire lanes, two spaces, tailgating, no blinkers, etc)
Loud music audible to others
Unnecessary odorous emanations in public (smoking, farting, bad hygiene, too much perfume/cologne, pocket full of limburger, etc)
Etc.
Meaning, take any behavior you regularly engage in and which you have either suspected or been told is asshole-ish, then extrapolate it out to every single other person doing it, and ask if that's the world you want to live in.
Seriously, I know people like this, and am like this on rare occasion myself, but I am astonished by the number of people who simply refuse to change their behavior unless there are immediate, negative consequences to them, personally. The concept that consequences befall others because of their thoughtlessness never enters into the equation.
Fucking computers. Like, I understand that they're based off of code, I don't understand how the hell that makes fucking Skyrim or even mspaint. As far as my expertise goes, my computer is a box of magical fairy dust that makes images appear.
Being smart doesn't make you better than anyone else
Being strong doesn't make you better than anyone else
Being a parent doesn't make you better than anyone else
Being rich doesn't make you better than anyone else
Being a redditor doesn't make you better than anyone else
Being white doesn't make you better than anyone else
Being an Islamist doesn't make you better than anyone else
Eventually we'll all die and everything you worked towards will be gone. Enjoy the time you've been given on the world before you shrivel up and drop dead.
Working in a food service, think twice before you be the biggest asshole in the world. We are literally making you food, and while I've never done anything to someone's food to harm them, you are basically putting your trust in us that your food will be cooked thru or made correctly.
[deleted] · 48 points · Posted at 14:59:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Freedom of speech only protects you from being arrested for your opinions - It doesn't automatically allow you a platform to spread hatred, or it doesn't stop private companies, such as Reddit, from banning you from their site, etc.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
Its independent of the first amendment, it's just also in the first amendment right?
Fmeson · 3 points · Posted at 18:26:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You two are talking past each other, but probably both actually agree with each other.
The biggest problem of the US voting system isn’t the Electoral College. It’s the Plurality System. Basically, it’s a bad choice for voters to only get one choice.
The Electoral College, however, is a problem. It was created to prevent a demagogue from getting elected, and it's so far failed us multiple times (especially Jackson).
One of the big points that I will give weight to is that Americans are just not capable of electing in any system other than the current one. Already, Americans vote sub-optimally (Nader) and any system that could introduce even one more confusing concept would fall apart instantly.
Furthermore, because Americans are averse to government officially regulating political parties, systems like Britain's would be too unpopular to get started.
Personally, I'm a fan of the "are you okay with" system, in which voters are basically voting yes/no on each candidate and the one that the most people are okay with wins.
(More extremely, I'm in favor of a "political literacy" test for voters so only people who understand the system can vote, but that's not constitutional so oh well.)
(More extremely, I'm in favor of a "political literacy" test for voters so only people who understand the system can vote, but that's not constitutional so oh well.)
This will probably never be a thing in the US because of the 'literacy tests' that were often required by racist laws in the Jim Crow era.
So use instant runoff/single transferrable vote. The optimal choice is to rank candidates according to actual preference, regardless of how other people vote.
Ahh, these are exactly the confusing concepts I was referencing. Florida voters have a hard time filling in a ballot with only one vote. Many of these people wouldn't even be able to figure out what a runoff ballot is, let alone use one. And it's not like we can just say, well these people can't vote. That goes against their sense of just democracy.
"rank candidates in order of preference" is not exactly rocket science.
Make a list of the candidates with a unique letter code next to each name(no repeated letters in a single code, arrange the letters of each code in alphabetical order).
Your ballot is a standardized test style answer sheet with a bunch of numbered lines on which to rank candidates, and bubbles for A to Z on each line. You fill in the letter code for each candidate on the corresponding line. You can fill in as many or as few lines as you wish. If you put the same candidate on multiple lines it just counts as the highest of those ranks.
Again, there are already voters who can't fill out a "pick one" ballot but care about their votes counting. It's not about whether the idea is rocket science or not. It's about how many people will screw up, and there will be people that will unintentionally screw up in any system. Don't design this ballot with yourself in mind. Design it with the dumbest person you know in mind. That guy is going to need to be able to fill the ballot out just as well as you can.
The electoral college actually does a good job of mathematically holding the country together. Otherwise, the West could say 'fuck this mess, we consistently under represented' and the east coast could say 'fuck this mess, we are consistently being under represented' and then we ended up with succeeding states and civil wars with borders drawn by the color of the state.
It just so happens this election cycle the flyover states and everybody else that feels a similar way got out and voted because the felt under represented. And the rest of the country will hang in there because they know it's not gonna last forever.
The basis of the electoral college works when people get out and vote. The president we have is a reflection of the most frustrated citizens of the United States (it was the same way for Obama's first election) and if you don't recognize him you haven't taken the time to get to know your neighbors.
One problem is that everyone but the small states considers those states to be overrepresented.
With the way state representation works in general, an entire (geographical) half of my state will never see either of our senators. None of this area's votes matter at all because the cities have always gone blue and they always win the state-wide elections. Tons of people in my state voted red in this presidential election because they thought they could make a difference, but they didn't impact the state-wide result so they still got zero say in the national election. It's a testament to the spread of the problem that you don't instantly know which states I could be talking about, save that mine votes blue.
And you vastly overestimate the likelihood of both secession and civil war. For that to happen, enough people must be willing to die over an argument, and the PotUS alone isn't that important. The vast majority of citizens will always be relatively moderate and quiet, so they'll just "meh" about until the next election cycle.
I live in a state that went red, I felt certain that it would go blue. The cities always go blue and I'm from the city. I learned a lot about the people I live around that voted red. They claimed to be ready to take up there rifles to defend their rights if the election didn't go the way they thought it should. I mean, I was certainly wasn't serious about a civil war, but i think its safe to assume there are more people willing to fight than what we might think.
It reminded me of an article written about the war in Syria as the violence got closer to the city. No one believed it would actually enter the city.
An engineer witness soldiers shooting at civilians. The engineer, became an ambulance driver picking up anyone injured until his ambulance was destroyed 3 or 4 times buy soldiers. Then he became a bomb maker and sided with the Syrian resistance.
Anyways, I don't think we are on edge of a civil war and I'd say it's because people who care enough to show up to vote feel that they are being represented. The numbers produced by the electoral college helps the country move together regardless of the geography, even if it isn't popular.
There were many choices for President, even using only the 2 party system, there were a solid 19 people who could have won. Most puerile don't actually care enough to pay attention for the length of time it requires.
But you only got a choice of two at the election (the ones who had a 0% chance of winning don’t count).
[deleted] · -4 points · Posted at 15:38:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I mean it always comes down to a singular choice in the end. We didn't just randomly wind up with two major parties. There isn't really a system of government in the world without two major parties.
McBenis · 7 points · Posted at 16:40:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There are lots of countries in the world with more than two parties that have a chance of winning an election..
Well Canada has 3 major parties federally and 4 in some provinces. Typically the Liberals or Conservatives win but the NDP have at least some regularity of winning especially in certain provinces.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 16:42:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But it is still for the most part 2 major parties. When was the last time that the NDP had control in government?
They were the official opposition under Harper's last term, but you don't need to be the PM to have power over government. The NDP, in minority governments, still represent a large enough group to pass or halt legislation the same as the Liberals and Conservatives when voting, since they'd each need more than half the votes and none of them would have the people to do it. If the Liberals and Conservatives can't agree, the NDP settle the vote. Though, with the majority government, that goes entirely to the PM's party.
nism0o3 · 2 points · Posted at 18:21:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I read the entire thread and, once I approached the end, I could see something sort-of positive coming out of it.... well.... eventually. Imagine this, our economic system starts to collapse. Our vehicles sitting idle because gas is too expensive, we eat the debt of the cars but the real-estate sky rockets in areas where grocery stores and resources are within walking distances. Communities that are too far from stores and other resources come together to develop methods of coping. People car pool out of necessity because someone has a Tesla or other EV. Hell maybe we even get horses and buggies. New, small "mom and pop" stores are opened again. People start working these stores and other skilled jobs to help out. Old skill sets are sparked, after all someone will need to create more cost effective infrastructure and utilities. Solar explodes fueling a more efficient source of power for those who can't afford gas and electricity from "the grid". Most wind up ditching their corporate jobs because the big businesses are crumbling. No one can afford to get to work let alone buy their products. People start to barter when their money runs low/out. Communities provide support for struggling families and everyone pitches in. You now have people interacting with each other face-to-face. Contributing to the common good. Creating new systems for healthcare and security. People start setting up their PCs to share information rather than going through an ISP (there is a term for this). People will no longer be looked highly upon for being rich and powerful. Although they would control important resources, they will no longer be feared as their wealth doesn't hold up in the "new system". Respect and power is now in the hands of those who can lead in the new environment and provide a set of skills useful in survival. Politicians get back to the basics. Although corruption will still exist it will not prove to be as fruitful as the corrupt won't have the leverage they had before and, lets face it, the rich and corrupt will be outnumbered 99 to 1. Those who are decent human beings with resources to share will replace the old, money and power hungry shareholders that control the economy now.
Anyway, it will be painful but when the system fails, I think it might just make things better and more sustainable in the long run. THat's my pipe dream for the day!
Republicans rob you by taking payments from corporations. Dems by funneling your tax money into "Charities" ran by their crooked friends. of course, an exaggeration. Moderate liberal here :D
BillsGM · 1 points · Posted at 00:44:06 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Eh, they both use any means available to achieve wealth and status. I wouldn't say any tactic is limited to one side or the other.
I was catering a little more to the stereotypes but you're probably right. I'm very interested in politics but can acknowledge I have no real knowledge of the inner workings. After being in the workforce for six years or so my general conclusion is that people are just lazy and not good at their jobs no matter what it is or what political party they're a part of.
BillsGM · 2 points · Posted at 00:54:52 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I def suggest reading "The Power Broker: Robert Moses and the Fall of New York" to get an understanding of how most politicians operate. The book really shines a light on the inner workings. It's set in the early 20th century, but the concepts are still applicable. Essentially though, ultra competitive humans love power, they love money and they will do whatever they must in order to acquire it. Contemporary politics are a factor more complex of course, but the fundamentals are the same.
Hey man thanks for the suggestion, I really appreciate it. I definitely know some ultra competitive people who love power and they usually tends to be narcissistic which is what I think of most politicians. I've always found it funny how politicians will suck up to super rich people and Brown nose them for campaign donations even though they're the ones that make the laws. I don't know many politicians who went into office and didn't come out richer or better off after networking.
[deleted] · 7 points · Posted at 15:57:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That it was me who prevented the fall of the Roman empire in the 3rd Century. The question should not be why did Rome fell but how did it last so long
No. It is a republic, but a portion of the leaders are democratically elected. Federal law is not democratically decided, and up until the direct ejection of senators, the House had the only democratically elected officials.
The United States is an example of a constitutional democratic republic. The government is run according to the principles of an established Constitution, and the people do not pass laws based on a direct majority. Rather, they elect representatives to a legislative body who can then represent their interests but who can only pass laws that adhere to the principles of the Constitution.
And yes, if we keep looking for terms we can probably keep adding to that, but it's a Democratic Republic. Always.
That an airplane on a treadmill will take off just fine.
Shustak · 7 points · Posted at 17:32:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I was incredibly shocked at this because I know physics pretty well. So I googled it and saw the different interpretations of how the airplane is moving on the treadmill. I imagined it moving in then opposite direction of the treadmill roll thus staying stationary in relation to the ground. So in that case it won't fly.
All of the interpretations in which the plane doesn't fly rely on thinking that the wheels are what's propelling the plane.
The plane doesn't really care what's under it, since it's not relying on contact with the ground for propulsion
y0y · 2 points · Posted at 18:18:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When people have a hard time understanding this, I tell them to imagine holding a matchbox car on a treadmill. It doesn't matter how fast that treadmill is going backwards, you can move the car up and down with ease because you are providing the force of movement and not the wheels themselves. They usually get it then.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:53:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In the one version that it sort of works, what practically happens in that the treadmills spins up to infinity and the wheels explode. There is no way in reality for a treadmill to stop an airplane from moving, since airplanes don't drive from the wheels.
That the outcome of a decision does not determine whether or not the decision was the correct one at the time. Outcome bias is the wrong way of going about it.
That the left-right political paradigm that we are stuck in helps no one but the extremely rich. And as divided as we are in this country, people still keeping voting along party lines with nothing changing for the better.
Not everyone has the potential to be a concentration camp guard and if you think otherwise you're obviously projecting your own inadequacies on to others.
EDIT: or it just makes you feel better to think that everyone everywhere is shitty.
The history of racial inequality in the US since the Civil War.
Some people are quick to point out the disparities of income, incarceration, and education between races and like to label minorities as 'lazy, or dumb,' because, 'there is no racism now, slavery was 200 years ago,' when the effects of institutionalized racism have been rippling even today.
For instance, lynchings, forced evictions, the war on 'drugs', racist housing lending, etc., are all manifestations of institutionalized racism that have troubled the US ever since reconstruction. 'Laziness' and 'stupidity' are not inherent, nor present, in minority groups; there is a direct correlation of inequality relating to wealth because of a history of racism.
Every piece of litter you throw on the ground/in the water makes a difference. There is no "too small to matter". Cannot overstate how important this is because of reasons like bio-accumulation.
That freedom of speech is not the same as freedom FROM speech.
You don't like something? You're allowed to speak out against it. You are NOT allowed to silence the other side and claim that their viewpoint somehow harms you just by its being voiced.
Left lane is for passing. Even if you’re going the speed limit, get over to the right lane.
Some parts of the country seem to really get this, mostly the east coast from my experience, while west coast drivers either never got the memo or simply give zero fucks. I’m guessing the latter.
U.S.A is born and immediately becomes the greatest country ever.
U.S.A becomes even greater by abolishing slavery, further cementing us as the greatest country
U.S.A saves the world from the germans
U.S.A saves the world from the Nazis
U.S.A kicks Russia's ass and saves the world from communism
U.S.A is now currently kicking the middle east's ass and is saving the world from terrorism
There is so much mising or just straight up wrong with this view of world history, yet most people in the U.S think this is the way everything went down.
Alterx · 8 points · Posted at 17:31:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think most Americans know history pretty well. At my school at least the teachers were great at giving the full story. Including America's atrocities doesn't mean America isn't a great country but we all know what we did to the Indians and slave and also that Russia won the European front.
The trouble is that the name itself Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder is BS.
ADHD, despite it's name, has nothing to do with an attention deficit. ADHD is an executive control disorder which means that those of us with ADHD don't have the executive control to determine what we focus on. Sometimes this means we can't focus on anything, sometimes it means we can only hyper-focus on this one thing for the next 18 hours.
/r/adhd is alive and well and we always enjoy company.
When they say "calm down", maybe they mean you should have been working a little harder on behavioral modification most of your life.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:10:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't understand why he's being downvoted, he's right. Most people don't want to believe it but a lot of people labeled as having ADHD fall into A LOT of bad habits that can be tailored and controlled over time. Doesn't make them perfect, but can greatly assist. Don't discourage these people from attempting to control their behavior
All I know is that behavioral modification works. My brother is diagnosed with ADHD, Bipolar Disorder, and ODD.
His doctors growing up told my parents they had two main options for dealing with it. They could either drug him up or they could focus on behavior modification. My parents wisely chose behavior modification. My parents were diligent about it, and as a result, my brother functions way better than most people. His mood swings are minimal and he knows how to control them when they do occur, his defiant tendencies are in check, and he has greater impulse control and focus than most people.
My brother was never taught the attitude that he can't control himself or for him to blame a diagnosis on his behavior. The responsibility for his own actions has always been on him, and he's a better man for it.
This is true. But it does not protect you from consiquences of your speech. It simply protects you from the government retaliating against you for your speech.
if you graduate from university in hundreds of thousands of debt with a useless degree, you have no one to blame but yourself
y0y · 4 points · Posted at 18:22:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You have no sympathy for an entire generation who was groomed for nothing else but "going to college" and who simply did what they were told would provide them a better future?
They were basically lied to their whole lives, intentionally or not. I have sympathy for them, even if they did major in something entirely non-econmically viable like Art History.
It's when they later tell me they're going to double-down and go for the master's degree in their non-viable major because "there just aren't any jobs available" that I lose sympathy.
jbaird · 5 points · Posted at 19:08:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah how many of these kids really made their own decisions and how much was made by the parents who should have REALLY known better
I dont ever remember someone telling me to take out a 100k student loan and I never met a guidance counselor that encouraged me to be an art history major. If anything it's the parent's fault. Not the system. Id never let my kid take our that much debt unless they were becoming a dr or lawyer.
y0y · 2 points · Posted at 19:24:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You get out of education what you put into it. If they did the bare minimum to get buy and put no effort in understanding what potential employers would look for in a candidate - I have no sympathy.
You don't have to major in a STEM field to be successful. You do have to find people in the field you want to go into and find out what it takes to get where they are.
jbaird · 1 points · Posted at 19:07:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Lending is a two way street, we want people to both make loans that can be expected to be paid back and people to take loans that they need..
Bankruptcy and other ways to shed debt are there for a good reason.. its not a flaw in the system, if lenders are guaranteed to get their money back then they don't need to worry about how bad a loan it is and can give any amount of money to anyone.. Bankruptcy and loan default aren't due to someone's character flaws, people shouldn't feel bad about doing either if it makes financial sense. Both of those things are necessary for a lender to be scared about not getting their money back and put the time into making sure the loan makes sense
and unfortunately you'll rarely find people that will turn down money.. so it really makes more sense to go after the rather smaller amount of lenders..
Would you, on your own, go lend six figures to any teenager that walked up and signed papers .. hell no, most would blow it on booze and not pay you.. would you ever run out of teenagers that would sign? unlikely.. You could have national ad campaigns against it and try your best to teach everyone how bad an idea it was and there would be lines around the block..
If the government backed these loans and/or these loans we're guaranteed to be paid back by garnished wages and are impossible to get rid of then sure, lets lend away, its a no brainer!
What it's like to be diagnosed with Alzheimer's disease between the ages of 65 and 85. One in ten people in that age group has Alzheimer's disease. Nine in ten don't.
Well to be fair, one of those things is different than the other two. You get to choose how you dress, and yeah, while it doesn't dictate your personality, rather, you express elements of your personality through your dress.
The US has plenty of exceptions to Free Speech. "Fighting words" are one such category. Child porn is another.
Basically the argument is my right to the pursuit of happiness, or other rights I have, and you infringing on them, is how your rights are limited. For example, if free speech is unlimited then anytime I go to a public place you could be there shouting insults/ slurs at me which can impede my ability to be happy since you're always there harassing me. The article seems to say millennials want to swing the pendulum to more restrictions on free speech, in protection of the other rights.
No, the US has very, very limited exceptions to Free Speech. (As an aside, you must be European, as I hear this from Europeans all the time.)
"Fighting words" is probably the most commonly misunderstood exception. It involves a threat against an individual that is specific, imminent, and credible.
In the US (which is what I am talking about) there is no legal Right to be Happy. There is no Right to not be offended. There is no Right to not have someone hurt your feelings.
For example, if free speech is unlimited then anytime I go to a public place you could be there shouting insults/ slurs at me which can impede my ability to be happy since you're always there harassing me.
Yes, and unless my shouting rises to the legal level of "fighting words," I can do so. For instance, if I followed you around and said that you are an argumentative defender of speech restrictions, that would be perfectly legal. And I have never said that free speech was unlimited.
Yes, if you want to shout and drown out the speech of others, you are legally allowed to, by the Government. Now, you might run afoul of private rules, if you did so in a non-Government sponsored setting, like a university.
Millenials, at least those who argue against free speech (as in the linked poll) are using a rather childish argument, that people should not be legally allowed to hurt other peoples' feelings. So, that raises the question: Do you think Donald Trump should have the power to regulate what you say?
I thought fighting words was meant to be something that is intended to break the peace between the person saying it and the receiver. So you yelling that all gays will burn in hell would be protected but you yelling at me specifically that because I'm gay I should be hanged wouldn't be protected. Not the same in the States?
So you yelling that all gays will burn in hell would be protected but you yelling at me specifically that because I'm gay I should be hanged wouldn't be protected.
Both are protected. You would have to yell something like "I am going to shoot you with this gun in my hand."
Yup. Chaplinsky v New hampshire. You have to look at cases since that one to get the more modern interpretation.
So, Terminiello v Chicago
[The] function of free speech under our system of government is to invite dispute. It may indeed best serve its high purpose when it induces a condition of unrest, creates dissatisfaction with conditions as they are, or even stirs people to anger. Speech is often provocative and challenging. It may strike at prejudices and preconceptions and have profound unsettling effects as it presses for acceptance of an idea. That is why freedom of speech, though not absolute, is nevertheless protected against censorship or punishment.
Cohen v California
The majority held that fighting words were only “those personally abusive epithets which, when addressed to the ordinary citizen, are, as a matter of common knowledge, inherently likely to provoke violent reaction.”
But, the real change was in Gooding v. Wilson
While assaulting a police officer, Gooding shouted, “White son of a bitch, I’ll kill you.” “You son of a bitch, I’ll choke you to death.” and “You son of a bitch, if you ever put your hands on me again, I’ll cut you all to pieces.”
This was not found to constitute "fighting words."
The Supreme Court has effectively limited the exception to only include abusive language, exchanged face to face, which would likely provoke a violent reaction.
Mate, i just saw your post and didn't vote anything. It has ~ to me, so I don't know your score. Interesting to see how the exception has narrowed. Why downvote what contributes to a conversation?
Edit: in reading the oponion, it seems the last case was that the GA statue was too vague to be applied, regardless of how it fits this case. I don't see it as an erosion of fighting words but that GA hadn't defined it well enough for this to stand.
[deleted] · 7 points · Posted at 17:28:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The truth is somewhere in the middle.
bdeimen · 1 points · Posted at 18:09:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The alt right is a reactionary movement. Everything that's happened in American politics over the last year or so has been reactionary. There's not a whole lot of intellectual honesty going around, which is really frustrating to watch.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:42:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It takes a special kind of delusional idiot to think that the radical right is really the fault of the SJWs.
Teyar · 1 points · Posted at 01:31:17 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
You don't ever actually talk to them, do you? The most common thing said is that they're tired of constantly being called a racist/sexist/bigot/phobic/nazi, especially when completely unjustified.
If you were at all concerned with a complete picture of reality as opposed to this caricature you've got in your head, you'd already know this.
[deleted] · -5 points · Posted at 17:46:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Teyar · 10 points · Posted at 17:56:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Cite a racially targeted law, please. There is no white supremacy - you're a fool for thinking it's a substantive claim. Actual white supremacists are the most reviled, mocked, and marginalized groups in the country.
I can understand the concept of privilege, even if I find it overblown due to the overwhelming numbers of the impoverished, but for the love of sanity, please stop thinking anyone outside your ideology buys your rhetoric.
When your entire argument boils down to "one race is responsible for all the ills of the world, has to be brought low, removed to make room for Good People" you're nothing but a hideously disgusting racist.
[deleted] · -1 points · Posted at 18:51:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[removed]
Redici · 3 points · Posted at 19:09:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"Reverse racism isn't real because only white people have power" go fuck yourself. Firstly your right reverse racism isn't real because discriminating ANYONE because of their race makes you a racist. It doesn't matter what color you are or what color the person you're discriminating against is your still racist because (and I know it can be hard to follow logic, but try) YOU'RE DISCRIMINATING AGAINST SOMEONE BASED ON THEIR FUCKING RACE. Secondly I'm going to assume the only justification that you have for people who discriminate against white (or other "non marginalized" races) is because it's "only" prejudiced not racist, which actually proves my point because a racist is (get this) someone who is prejudice against a certain race. Notice how that's not "prejudice against black people" or any other one race because it's possible to be racist twards ANYONE because again racists are prejudice against ANYONE of ANY race based only on the fact that they are that race.
The concept of racism cannot be boiled down to simply "one having prejudices against another based on race". It is based on power hierarchies. Whites have historically abused the black race. The point is to correct this dynamic by improving the standing of black people, and by making sure that whites don't have obscene privilege because of their skin color.
White people do not get disproportionately arrested due to non-violent drug crimes, even though they statistically consume about the same as black people. White people do not get killed or beaten on a daily basis by police officers who are given the liberty to do so because of a corrupt judicial system. White people are not assumed to be uneducated or inept by employers simply because of their race.
To be perfectly honest, I don't believe it's the system itself that's the problem, but the people who manage and staff it. Culture has to change. That's the point of this movement, which I admit has gone over the top and counterproductively inspired some reactionaries. But really, saying that racism is simply prejudice against any race is inaccurate and overly simplistic. Perhaps we'll be saying that when all the races are about equal. For now, focus on healing the bruised limb.
Redici · 0 points · Posted at 21:10:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sorry man, I don't argue with racists.
Irelgbt · -4 points · Posted at 17:57:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If your talking about what's going on in America then lemme tell you that you don't even have a radical left it's just that your conditioned to think that the left is pure and utter evil which has hindered the development of your country I mean McCarthyism like hello why isn't that talked about more considering your government went all out to take out the left in US politics
Teyar · 3 points · Posted at 18:00:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Given that Marxism is the holder for Gold and Silver medals where the Nazis hold BRONZE in the Genocide Games, I find your argument utterly unmoving.
Especially because I'm from Bernies state and voted for him with glee - I know damned well social programs are needed and valuable.
Beyond that - do you really need me to get the Antifa and BLM videos that show off horrific violence? Let alone their completely unmolested rioting and vandalism, while police sit by?
Lol, google East Timor. Don't forget the genocides in Vietnam, Cambodia, the middle East, south America, and of course, the genocide America war founded on: the extermination of 100 million indigenous people.
Teyar · 1 points · Posted at 01:32:31 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
One hundred million. Yeah. You've got a robust grip of the facts. Uh-huh.
So if it was only 50 million people, that would be an acceptable level of genocide?
Teyar · 1 points · Posted at 02:21:26 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not the point - The point is you're the type of person to use extremes to make a point, and I'm done with you. Especially since you know damned well the vast majority of that was disease.
You say that antifa and BLM commit horrific violence, but you apologize for a state that has committed countless genocides, and I'm the one going to extremes?
Teyar · 1 points · Posted at 02:36:52 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
And once again you're making my point for me. You're putting words in my mouth because you don't recognize that things are complex, and that people can have opinions different than yours. I've never once apologized for my state, or nation, I don't need to, it's something so vastly removed from my intentions and choices it's completely irrelevant.
Also, nice whataboutery! Seriously - The behavior of a nation 200 years ago versus social movements being critiqued today? How fucking delusional can you get.
Irelgbt · 1 points · Posted at 23:31:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Okay so let's just disregard an entire issue because some violence has occurred
We are people, we all make mistakes and we all look for them too even though I cannot speak for BLM because frankly I don't look into exactly what their doing but when I support the left it's because america is well known for having a huge poverty gap and a general public that looks down on them,frankly the only reason so much charitable work is done is because of colleges and even though they see how badly off some are they still refuse to give one penny to them and try to end the poverty cycle
And that me not wanting to talk to you doesn't necessarily mean I hate you or you did something wrong. I still like you. I just don't want to talk right now. That's it.
LOL. Reposting content is bad enough, but how absolutely pathetic do you have to be to repost other people's comments, word for word. It's a great idea that someone would save things they found inspiring, but holy fuck this is just sad.
Qu1n03 · 7 points · Posted at 16:52:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Holy shit someone needs to get you a badge and a gun.
and possibly some badass shades and a stack of one-liners.
It's kinda sad that people see school as the only place to learn things and, conversely, that there isn't some kind of serious adult schooling system for people that just wanna learn more things! (Adult schooling usually means that you're the old person in college, or your in an after-work class learning the basics of Microsoft Word.)
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 16:02:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well, usually it's only old people that have the time and money to go to those classes. Mine offers Accounting, art and music classes!
Aurify · 1 points · Posted at 15:34:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 16:00:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I remember joking to my mom that I was 26 and still going to school before I got my business started! I actively enjoy learning and going to class but now only with a couple month break in between.
Oh and if you don't know where to go for classes as an adult, check out your nearest adult school! They usually cater to GED classes but they can have useful classes like accounting and excel!
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:38:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Wow the controversial section is really sad. This should be obvious.
The good thing is, with less guns out there, police can also relax more and aren't as jumpy and likely to shoot out of fear for their life as much.
Number of people shot by police in the entire last year in Germany? Seven.
Well sure. And how many horse & buggy related homicides do they have?
Cherry picking gun related crime as an indicator of success for gun control laws is circular. Of course fewer people will be killed by guns. People don't have guns.
A better indicator of safety would be overall homicide rates. Which are also lower in those nations than in the US. That's a much more reasonable argument to make.
The US hasn't had a 5.9 homicide rate in a long time. Also do you really believe a country that executes drug addicts can be trusted on its crime reports?
Not really, because they always had access to them during that period too. Fact is, if you have a small population to resource ratio, people will be happy and not kill each other.
Because they never really had guns, a gun culture or the frontier/ individualist mindset that the US has. The vast majority of people in the UK/ Japan live in extremely dense cities that, to begin with, had relatively few firearms.
In the US, up until the early/ mid 20th century many people lived a frontier lifestyle that forced a lot of self reliance. If you live hours away from the closest major city, calling the police will do nothing as it takes them hours to arrive and you're likely already dead by then
[deleted] · 82 points · Posted at 15:50:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What about Australia that did have both a gun culture and a frontier mindset, with very few dense cities. Furthermore, they are both countries that invaded a native home and were descendants of the British that found their freedom from them.
The difference being in Australia was that guns were incredibly successfully outlawed and has immensely reduced gun deaths to almost 0. Im unsure as to why the US couldn't do similar.
[deleted] · 24 points · Posted at 17:54:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
[deleted] · 26 points · Posted at 18:01:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah I know they don't want to, it's more I just enjoy hearing how they justify having them. It literally cannot be more than "I think guns are cool", any other argument I've heard holds no weight in a modern context.
You can get guns to hunt for food in Canada too, thats not unique to America. Gun control does not mean shotguns and rifles are banned
Blezoop · -5 points · Posted at 08:49:12 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
No one hunts for food anymore though, plus gun control would still allow for 22's and such. Just not giving the masses access to Assault weapons. Hunting for recreation wouldn't be harmed much at all.
Very few "assault" weapons are used in crimes either. So why is it that those are the guns everyone wants to ban?
Blezoop · 1 points · Posted at 12:05:58 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Because they're the guns used in mass shootings. Australia had 17 mass shootings in the 18 years leading up to the gun regulations, with the most recent being the worst ever in the developed world to date. Since then, 20+ years ago, they've had none. The use of semi-/automatic rifles makes one nut going out and killing swathes of the public, often schools with kids, a very really possibility. Every other country gets along just fine with a lower murder rate to boot. I can understand the "but I like guns" argument, and respect that. But there really are no alternative arguments to that.
I count 5 since Port Arthur. And I personally would rather be shot than burned to death which seems to be the new preferred method.
Blezoop · 2 points · Posted at 16:36:59 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
They're almost exclusively family killings/suicides though, I'm talking about hate crimes/mass shootings, The occurance has been drastically reduced and my relatives still have their rifles etc.
And six of those in your timeline before Port Artur were also family killings/ suicides. Why the difference afterwards?
Blezoop · 2 points · Posted at 16:46:45 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Look all I'm saying is that gun violence went down, especially large scale shootings and the like, I don't really know much on the subject otherwise tbh.
Yes, so gun violence went down, burninating went up. People kill people. Take one weapon away they will find another. Take away the guns in England and people drive trucks into crowds.
Blezoop · 0 points · Posted at 17:20:17 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Suddenly it's harder to do and teenagers stop doing school shootings or young men with club shootings and people are forced to use cars instead, something much easier to deal with, car injuries are easier to treat than bullet wounds, less fatal etc etc.
There are more methods, and people will always kill each other, but a gun culture isn't a very good thing to have with current American society. Maybe in the future it could work, but currently I don't think It does.
We also had a drop in Homicides in the US during the same time period. Ours even dropped faster then theirs, and we pretty much did the opposite thing they did.
They can have private ammo for personal use but "military ammo" for their military weapons isn't kept, they can have personal ammunition
But I'm not personally from Switzerland, but that's what people who've claimed to be from Switzerland said
Blezoop · 7 points · Posted at 08:51:53 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Another factor is that a huge portion of the public has undergone mandatory military service, everyone is trained and the culture around that serves to lessen the negative effects. America not having mandatory service has to compensate in other ways. I.e gun control laws.
Well the main thing being that people assume that making guns illegal will suddenly make the country a better place but drugs are illegal and not hard in the slightest to get. Plus look at prohibition....same thing happened when we make alcohol illegal
He literally asked why it was a valid comparison (guns to drugs) and you just repeated an argument that assumes it's a valid comparison.
(Also few people want guns to be illegal: they want their sale to be better regulated so that, say, mentally ill people can't buy a gun and commit a shooting in the same day)
4.7 million incidents. That's amazing considering there's only roughly 1.2million total violent crimes in the US each year.
Please stop spreading the debunked and false DGU stats. I get it, it's the only thing resembling stats that supports your cause, but it is 100% not valid in any sense. None of those numbers are accurate, scientifically. It was a self included study extrapolated irrationally.
4.7 million incidents. That's amazing considering there's only roughly 1.2million total violent crimes in the US each year.
Thats the number of reported violent crimes, not the total number of crimes that happened. Most people don't call the police when they experience a failed robbery.
Well that number would include incidents that were defused or prevented simply by the presence of a firearm, and may not have been reported to the police or marked as a violent crime, not to mention you completely ignored the smallest estimate, which is still much higher than total gun deaths, including suicide and homicide.
You still ignore even the most conservative study putting them in the 50,000s which is still far above people killed. If you go by an absolutist ratio, there are more lives saved than lost because of guns, and that gap widens when you realise that suicidal people don't commit suicide because of the tool they use, but because of mental conditions which would still exist without the firearms.
I ignore all studies that whose methologies are flawed. NO conclusions can be made from them, by definition.
You want real numbers? Justified homicides in the US are tracked, there's between 100-300 per year if memory serves. Even multiplying that by 7 for average handgun fatality that's only 2100 defensive gun uses per year. Those are the facts as reported by the FBI.
You again ignore non-fatal defensive uses. And again dismiss even the more conservative study out of hand, without explanation. Describe the methodology used by Herenway to produce the 55,000-80,000 numbers. The study explicitly critiques the study you are complaining about but still comes out well ahead of your own unsourced numbers.
David Herenway, Survey Research and Self Defense Gun Use: An Explanation of Extreme
Overestimates, 87J. CRIM. L. & CRIMINOLOGY 1430 (1997).
It's not illegal brandishing if it's done in self defense, it's self defense that didn't require lethal force. Shouldn't that please you, given someone isn't being shot? And again, you have no actual source for your numbers, no study, no nothing. Until you can come up with a study saying DGUs are significantly lower than that, you're just wrong.
And what studies are you basing that on? I mean, if your argument has a basis in reality, then surely you can back it up with sources, like I have. How about even just attempting to explain how my statement is a fantasy, or how it has no basis in reality, rather than just dismissing me out of hand, since "no ur rong" is neither an argument nor a counterpoint.
Well that's true almost entirely because of suicides, and if you only count instances of self defense where a gun was discharged and that was reported to the police and if you almost completely discount the responders to the NCVS.... Lots of qualifications for that.
Agreed. However, averages don't apply to individuals.
I trust myself to be careful with my guns, but I do not trust myself to be able to fend off an intruder, armed or not, and I certainly don't trust the police to get here quickly enough.
This is more about freedom and choice than about what is the most logical way to get death numbers down. Logically, obesity would be way less of a problem if there were no fast food restaurants, therefore we should ban fast food restaurants, right? Nonsense. You can choose to eat McDonald's every meal every day if you want.
There would be fewer lung cancer cases if nobody smoked, so we should ban smoking, right? Nonsense.
There would be fewer cases of heart disease and other general health issues if people exercised, so we should force everyone to exercise 30 minutes a day, right? Nonsense.
Smoking, eating poorly, and lethargic lifestyle kill WAY more people than guns every year, but we don't take away people's rights for it.
[deleted] · 7 points · Posted at 23:19:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Smoking, obesity, and heart disease things affect the person doing them. The average person isn't going to care much as long as they have the choice to avoid it.
As for guns, it does affect them. Now, a choice of another person(owning a gun) can kill you. As someone said before, a gun is used 22x unlawfully than it is used lawfully, excluding police.
It's better to take 22 guns away from criminals and one from a lawful responsible man than to let the 22 criminals kill 22 others and the good man save one life
[deleted] · 12 points · Posted at 16:05:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Right but a fast food restaurant wasn't designed with the specific purpose to kill. A gun was and it very clearly is causing more harm than good.
22 times more likely to be used in an assault, accidental shooting or suicide. And you may trust yourself to be careful with your guns, but that doesn't extend to the millions and millions of other Americans who are demonstrably reckless with their gun ownership.
Edit:
Also averages don't apply to individuals? That's the dumbest shit I've heard all week.
Obesity accounted for nearly 15 times more deaths than guns in 2016. If you really care about saving lives, you'd care more about controlling the fast food industry and people's diets.
Yes, a gun is designed to kill. Designed to kill intruders, designed to kill animals, designed to kill in combat.
You're ultimately talking about controlling what people can/cannot purchase for the sake of saving their own lives. If that's what you care about, then you should care a lot more about fast food, cigarettes, and sedentary lifestyle. Those things should be banned way before guns.
[deleted] · 9 points · Posted at 16:16:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ok maybe we should be banning that stuff as well.
But just for the moment, if we're purely interested in reducing death in America, it would make sense to ban guns, no?
Like ignoring other issues, if we just want to reduce the amount of fatalities, banning guns would decrease deaths.
if we're purely interested in reducing death in America
If that's all we're interested in, yes. However, the measures to decrease those deaths also reduce freedom, and that's not ok. Just like with what you eat, smoke, how much you exercise, etc, it comes down to personal choice, and having those choices matters.
[deleted] · 10 points · Posted at 16:23:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Right. So we agree that if we want to reduce fatalities in America, banning guns would help that?
And we also agree that you are 22 times more likely to use a gun in an assault, suicide or accidental shooting then you are to use it in home defence?
Are you comfortable with those 2 statements?
Furthermore I'd like to point out at this time that in countries with strict gun control, any member of the public is allowed to own a gun so long as they go through the correct procedures.
you are 22 times more likely to use a gun in an assault, suicide or accidental shooting then you are to use it in home defence?
Yes and no. I'm not a murderer, and I am not going to commit suicide, and I'm not an idiot with my guns, so I am not 22 times more likely to use a gun in those ways. However, I don't dispute the statistic in general.
Yes, I'm totally comfortable with those two statements.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 16:35:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Wow I really did not expect you to be comfortable with both of those statements.
Ok.
But you also know that even in strict gun controlled countries you would be completely able to own a gun, and in those countries gun related deaths are almost 0? (Specifically I'm using Australia as my example here)
I value personal liberty above pretty much all else. Why would that be surprising?
[deleted] · 6 points · Posted at 17:19:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I just thought the value of innocent human life might trump that, but apparently not, even though in this scenario you still would be able to own a gun legally.
If everyone has the right to own a gun, then it's obviously not strict gun control.
Yes, liberty trumps it. With freedom comes collateral damage. People have the freedom to eat what they want, so obesity kills tons of people. People have the freedom to smoke, so people die from it. People have the freedom to drink, so sometimes people die from accidents. People have the freedom to go out after dark, so sometimes people get attacked in dark alleys or hurt in other ways. Every freedom afforded to us comes at some cost.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 17:41:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Do you believe that all drugs should be legal? Do you believe that roads should have speed limits?
For adults, yes. What you want to put in your body is your business.
Do you believe that roads should have speed limits?
Yes.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 18:00:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And you don't consider speed limits on roads to be impeding your personal freedoms?
And do you not recognise that drugs such as heroin and cocaine are addictive to the point where it more often then not leads to others being harmed to fuel the addiction, especially in the cases where parents are addicted to those drugs and will neglect their own children because of it?
I generally think speed limits should be higher, but that's not an area I feel particularly oppressed if I'm following a speed limit. I wouldn't be too torn up if there weren't speed limits anymore though.
As for drugs, I'm not advocating doing drugs, and I'm not saying neglecting your children or harming others as a result of doing drugs is ok. I'm saying if you want to do some cocaine on the weekend when you've got a babysitter watching the kids, go for it. It's not wise, but go for it. It's similar to alcohol. Alcohol is pretty damn addictive, but there are plenty of people who drink alcohol but don't drink while they're at work or watching their kids. They drink in appropriate places and responsible ways.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:16:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Right but we have documented proof that drug addiction is substantially worse than alcohol addiction. And that the legalisation and spread of hard drugs would likely only spread addiction further, which will inevitably lead to more suffering for families. Are you comfortable with that being the outcome of legalisation of drugs? Would you also not be infringing on the personal rights of a child by allowing a parent to legally access a substance that has been proven to have devastating effects on the user and their families?
And so is the issue more closer to oppression? Do you base how you value your personal feelings on the amount at which it is perceived to oppress you?
I guarantee I could shove a Big Mac down your throat in a way that choked you to death, and of course that would be illegal, not because of the Big Mac, but because of the way in which I used it.
Similarly, owning a gun should not be illegal, nor should using it to protect yourself or to hunt with.
And yet a gun is in the home is 22 times more likely to be used in an assault, accidental shooting or suicide then it is to shoot an intruder.
That doesn't mean it wont successfully defend from an intruder.
[deleted] · -5 points · Posted at 20:37:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It would depend on the level of gun control if literally ANYONE was proposing taking the guns away. No one is so don't make it seem that way. The right to protect oneself does not guarantee the ability to do so. An untrained guy with a gun just adds more danger statistically. CIA, FBI, NYPD all agree.
That is a study about active shooters, i.e. mass killers or rampage killers...
I am familiar with the research on gun violence. The organizations listed do not have researched that supports the notion that guns are ineffective for self defense, well maybe the NYPD does, but I doubt it.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 22:22:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Incidents with active shooters are the rarest sort of gun violence and as such are a silly place to try and make a point self defense with a gun. At any rate, you can find plenty of incidents where people legally carrying did stop shootings, they just didn't turn into active shooter situations because they were stopped quickly.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 22:41:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's great. If they're not insane and don't mind waiting a few days, they still can do so without a multi round assault weapon. Surprise. No one is banning guns.
I'm aware. Just what do you think was accomplished in the UK and Australia, two places that never had a substantially worse problem with gun violence than they have now?
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 03:01:54 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Specifically mass shootings? It had a huge effect. Went to practically zero if I recall. If you think it wouldn't have a similar effect with day to day shootings like in Chicago, you're just not thinking. A black market for guns would be very difficult to run.
The thing I don't understand is this. If you could still legally obtain a gun for the purpose of self defense, why the fuck would you not want other gun control policies are put in place regardless of how strict?
Mass shootings are very rare. Once every several years events are outliers, we could say something definitive about the efficacy of the ban in a few decades perhaps. In the meantime though there certainly have been mass shooting incidents, gunmen taking hostages, etc... that weren't much worse due almost entirely to luck: Sydney cafe hostage crisis, Monash University shooting, etc...
If you think that a dearth of very rare events predicts anything about common events, you are the on that is not thinking.
Every country on Earth has a functioning black market for guns. Some countries just don't have much of an illicit demand.
And pistols, pump action shotguns, semi-auto shotguns, magazine fed rifles are all banned for the vast majority of the population. They do not have access to appropriate means of self defense.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 16:49:21 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Black market being difficult to run well =\= black market not existing.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 11:07:52 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not entirely, that is true. A normal citizen does not however have access to pistols, pump action shotguns, lever action rifles, or any semiauto anything. In other words, you pretty much cannot take advantage of late 19th century technology. The vast majority of guns in circulation in the US would be unavailable to a normal citizen.
People who argue against gun control are basically telling you they don't care about saving people's lives.
These kinds of personal insults are why talking about public policy on the Internet is so terrible. Stick to the facts, not insulting everyone who disagrees with you.
Canada, Switzerland, Norway, Sweden, and Finland have tons of guns and low crime. For that matter, the suburban and rural US has more guns than the urban US but far less crime.
Every government that wants to control the people first takes their guns away, time and time again. If you want the people to be less powerful, take away their guns. Human history is largely a history of constant oppression by the elites. I don't have any guns, but gun ownership in general is crucial to defending democracy in the long run.
[deleted] · 11 points · Posted at 19:06:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's not entirely true. Pistols and automatic weapons are completely illegal unless you are military or police or at a gun range.
Hunting rifles and shotguns are different. But there are laws regarding the amount of ammunition allowed in the magazine at once etc.
To get a gun license you need a hunting license which requires different types of background checks.
All guns must be LOCKED in a gun safe in a safe place, preferably a basement of some sort where access isn't easy. No children are to have access to the safe or keys. The guns are only to be removed when they are to be used.
Guns are not allowed in Sweden, Finland or Norway, except for in gun ranges or too be carried by police.
People do have guns in their homes, they could take them out and carry them if they wanted to, they don't because they don't want to get arrested. If people wanted to kill each other there they could, but they don't because they live too well to risk it.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 12:27:20 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
Also people would not kill just because they could with the only downside being losing their privilige.
Well yeah, thats most people.
This is not america, people live togheter, build a life, creat a family.
Ah, I see, you are arguing from a position of ignorant nationalism and hatred. Most of us make families too, and we just want to protect our families from the barbaric elements of our society often enabled by your type of person.
If I could kill someone I wouldnt because there is no way someone can benifit from taking a life and thats the reason guns are illegall in Sweden.
Well that is just plain false, you can benefit by taking a life if it preserves yours or your family members life. That statement is incredibly naive and childish.
There are no reason for civilians to carry guns.
Again this is false, self-defense is a perfectly fine reason. Guns are an equalizer against those who have more physical power or outnumber you.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 15:17:26 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well you assuming all im saying is wrong because you think otherwise is plain stupid.
Its not, sometimes you just know someone is wrong through living life.
Well in a civilised society there is no need to carry a gun because your not solving the problem by shooting it.
There is no society without violence, and regardless we still both live in societies with riots and violence. So self-defense will always be necessary. Guns can fix individual problems with violence.
Almost no person is born a killer, they are affected during their life and that is what decides in the end if they pull the trigger or not so saying that you need a gun to protect your family is wrong.
Its not wrong, its just a fact. I can not fist fight or stab a group of attackers well enough to be effective enough to stop them from hurting me.
I understand that there are situations where a gun would be the better option but in the end guns do more damage then good.
Thats just plain untrue, society has gotten safer since the invention of the gun, and it has also gotten safer in the US despite what people think about our increasing gun ownership.
And I feel extremly angry and offended that you would call me a nationalist because I associat with the left wing and fight everyday for equallty.
Lol, you can still be a nationalist and be left wing. The Soviets were nationalist and left wing. The fact that you think your country is better or have the audacity to suggest the US is uncivilized while your country is is in essence nationalist. You people are so socially unaware its like talking to robots. You think your shit doesn't stink, and then get offended when people remind you by putting your own shit right up in front of your face.
As for equality, if you are against carrying guns then you are against equality. The fact is nature has made us physically unequal people, the gun is the equalizer.
Please consider what you say to other people in the future as you can't take back what has been said.
Speak for yourself.
Furthermore you don't know a singel thing about me or my life so stop with your childish, foolish prejudice!
Speak for yourself. You are exactly what black people make fun of white people for being. Out of touch while also being on a high horse.
You need to grow the fuck up and realise that your american way is ruining not only your own country but also the rest of the world so if someone is to blame it is the american people.
Our American way is doing nothing to anyone but providing safe and accessible trade for everyone to let their economies flourish. You would know that if you were the grown up.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 22:00:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
[deleted] · 6 points · Posted at 11:03:29 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Is that how you debate\critically think? Ask for a source then semantically pick at it because you were wrong, or rather, it kills your narrative? Of course these are estimated numbers, how do you think these things work? Estimated, but scientific and valid, the references are all there for you to check out, broham. You dont think 110 per 100 in the US is too high, do ya? But when your claim about Sweden is blown out by facts and cites, you play the logical fallacy game. Its not a good look, homie. Take the L and go home. If you have counter facts, or can debate intelligently, come with it or quit wasting time.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 12:08:22 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
Please feel to check my post history, I provided someone else who stated "Wikipedia isn't a source" with 3 different other sources to back up the Wikipedia source (which has a reference section as well, but I digress). Also, just because you're Swedish, doesn't make you THE authority on the point being debated here. It does give some insight to your experiences, but those are not really relevant to the point being discussed. Your claims are all hearsay, subjective conjecture; hell how do we even know you're even Swedish? (I concede you are, just making a point here). I stated facts with multiple cites to back up those facts. You choosing not to believe them, I aint got nuttin' more for ya.
Anyway, I think you and I are at an impasse so I am going to bid you a good rest of your day.
Yeah there a lots of guns in Canada. Mainly rifles and shotguns used for hunting. But you can't carry a loaded gun on your person in public, you definitely can't open carry, automatic weapons are banned, high capacity magazines are banned, we have no stand your ground laws. Thats how it should be
It leads to people shooting because they want to kill and then claiming self defence.
Besides, killing should only be permissible if the person is posing a direct danger to your life, or the lives of others. If you have the option to exit or defuse a potentially dangerous situation, you have the responsibility to take it
That's exactly what those two are for - for when a reasonable person is in fear for their life. It just removed the duty to retreat because your ability to escape might not always be obvious.
You understand that that's pretty much what stand your ground and castle laws encode right? The idea that self defense is a right, and the law shouldn't punish people for defending themselves when their lives are in danger.
Open carry is technically legal for non-restricted class firearms (rifles and shotguns) though doing so in urban areas typically results in "disturbing the peace" type charges. As well, 1/3 of license holders have a restricted class license, meaning there's around 600,000-700,000 people legal to own handguns. As far as magazine capacity laws are concerned, they're a shitshow, and it's extremely common in rural areas to unpin magazines to shoot at full capacity, then re-pin them when they're done shooting, since it's so easy to do so.
[deleted] · 16 points · Posted at 15:07:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
shall we count the death toll in australia or the UK from acid attacks, machetes and driving through crowds of protesters and compare it to the death tool at the hands of guns in the US?
The thing is those countries never had high homicides even before their gun control. So acting like their policy would work in the US is just dishonest.
There does seem to be an initial drop in suicide rates when you remove a preferred method. The drop does not seem to be particularly durable though. Australia's suicide rate is creeping back up and is once again very close to the suicide rate of the US.
The UKs drop was durable. It looks like Australia's drop may not be though as it is returning to the pre ban historical norm. Having risen over 20% in the last decade of available data.
Japan has no guns but 1.5x the suicide rate of the US. South Korea has no guns and has double the suicide rate of the US. If guns were the cause of suicides, why isn't the US leading them per capita in overall suicide rates?
Except we don't have a uniquely high suicide rate. Japan without guns has 1.5x our suicide rate. South Korea, without guns, has 2x our suicide rate. Belgium, with heavy gun control, has 1.33 our suicide rate. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate
A smart person could draw a parallel to the utter ineffectiveness of the War on Drugs when it comes to banning things from a populace, but I won't strain you.
We had also had a massive mass shooting at Port Arthur in the 90s. Some 36 people died. We thought that was enough of a reason to implement strict gun controls. And we did. And shit like that hasn't happened since.
Lucky for you. The Monash University shooting, the Sydney cafe hostage crisis or more recently the Melbourne siege all could have been much worse but for dumb luck.
No it did not. That 50% decline started years before the 96 ban. Our gun homicide rate also dropped by 50% over a similar period and without any draconian laws. There is just no good reason to attribute the continuation of a pre-existing trend to the ban.
Taking away a preferred suicide method on the other hand does seem to have a noticeable effect at least initially until different methods become the new ideal methods. It happened in the UK when they changed the natural gas mixture in order to make putting your head in a gas oven not such an easy way to go. Whether those drops are durable though is still a very open question. Australia's suicide rate is back up close to where the US is and approaching pre ban norms.
June 2017 London Bridge attack - three men drove a van into pedestrians and then attacked people with knives. 8 dead, 48 wounded.
June 2016 Orlando nightclub attack - one guy buys a semi automatic rifle and pistol, and then a week later walks into a nightclub and starts shooting. 49 dead, 58 wounded.
That is the difference that easy access to firearms can make. You might not stop evil from doing evil, but you can drastically reduce the harm caused.
[deleted] · 27 points · Posted at 15:33:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[removed]
[deleted] · 24 points · Posted at 17:53:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In countries with gun control people don't kill people as much. By giving them the gun, you are giving them the option to kill people. This skyrockets second degree murder.
McDonald's doesn't directly make people fat, but it definitely is a leading cause to obesity.
[deleted] · 6 points · Posted at 19:23:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No, still gonna go with shitty life choices make you fat.
I respect your arguments and using logic to make valid points, but I still believe that the problem is rooted in the people using these weapons. The only way to true peace in this world is getting people to the point of choosing the right thing to do, instead of taking away the wrong entirely.
evn0 · 7 points · Posted at 19:19:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Agreed, but that's obviously naievely impossible. So then, as a problem solver you approach the next best and most feasible option.
At the same time, we are taking away defense options from good willed people, only using such objects as defense apparatus.
[deleted] · 6 points · Posted at 21:32:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The problem with that is most people fall into the grey area. Under the right(or wrong) circumstances, they can commit murder which they will regret later. Good willed people can do wrong if enough things push them over the edge.
In my opinion there should be a very strict course and test in getting a gun, and renewing it yearly or every second year.
evn0 · 1 points · Posted at 19:25:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Any significant change in policy will temporarily disrupt some groups. Change inherently comes with overhead. It's about long term gains (no longer even needing a gun to "level the playing field" because it's level without them), not short term.
So you think criminals and law abiding citizens alike are just gonna give up their guns? Or are you advocating letting the military go door to door and disarm the populace?
evn0 · 5 points · Posted at 19:46:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Did I ever once propose a specific solution? As I stated in a different comment:
Now that we've come this far it's near impossible to turn the wheels back, obviously. But had things panned out differently and we were in a space where guns could effectively be removed, then gun crime would all but cease.
I don't think we're in a good place where we can just disarm the populace. But by more comprehensive national vetting for gun purchasers/owners, closing loopholes for private sales and inherited heirlooms, and incentivizing willing disarmament, I do think we could start down the path. Do I think that in your or my lifetime America could become a gun free and less violent country? No. Full stop. But I do think we can start a foundation that does enable people 1-3 generations away to have that added safety. Hence, as I mentioned, we need to be thinking of this issue longer term and not cycle-to-cycle.
As a matter of fact, in many countries it's illegal to carry (large enough) knifes with you. And it makes sense. It saves lives, same as with guns. And that's a fact.
Another question is whether some or most people prefer to have the freedom to carry them despite this fact. That's called an opinion and everybody is entitled to have their own. And we should be able to defend our opinions and respect the opinions of others in a civilised way. That's called democracy.
But negating obvious facts and insulting instead of debating seems to be perfectly fine now, even encouraged. So, hey, let's dispute facts instead of discussing what tradeoffs we chose as a society. Yeah.
I see why people would not be ok with private ownership with guns. However I have a problem with them saying that we dont care if people die.
States with higher gun ownership have lower crime rates. Guns place women on equal footing as a man in terms of defense. When someone uses a gun for murder its a side-effect of a problem, the gun is just the tool.
daneoid · 22 points · Posted at 17:56:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
We have no guns in Australia but have a murder rate 5 times lower than the U.S.
Assuming that someone who shoots another person to death would be just as likely to stab that person to death is incorrect. Stabbing is extremely personal, and involves a much higher level of physical engagement than shooting does. Simply put, guns do kill people, mainly because of how easy they make it to do so.
Exactly. When you stab someone, you're on top of them, they're fighting back, and it's usually a prolonged struggle. There's a lot of emotion involved - rage, jealousy, betrayal, whatever is motivating the murder. Your victim also has a chance of overpowering and maybe killing you. You'll be a bloody mess afterward, which will make you easy to apprehend. Cleaning up a crime scene is much harder than people think.
But with guns, all of that is removed. There's no emotion, there's no struggle, and unless your victim also has a gun, they can't fight back. And you can quickly run away and be long gone by the time cops show up. Everything is detached, and it's much easier to kill someone when you don't have to lay a finger on them. Pull that little trigger and that's it.
You can kill someone with pretty much anything, but we can't pretend that guns aren't the easiest method.
How do women and children fare in the UK with regards to their safety?
I'm a woman, I don't own a gun, but I have used "I have a gun" (bluff) and it actually worked in stopping an attacker. I have also used pepper spray (illegal in the UK) to defend myself.
So basically, if you've gotten to the point where the man is strangling the woman, her chances of being murdered in the future by any means go up astronomically.
When Britain made guns mostly illegal or very difficult to get, gun murders, mostly, disappeared. Other murders pretty much stayed at the same rate. Guns put physical and psychological distance between you and what you are attacking, so in many cases, no gun means no murder.
Australia never had much of a problem with firearm violence in the first place though. Yes they have seen the continuation of a long downward trend in their murder rate. Perhaps the 97 confiscation accelerated that a bit, but it is impossible to say with certainty.
Australia did see a substantial drop in their suicide rate, but that seems to have been temporary as it has increased 20% over the last decade.
That's really interesting. My comment was from research I did a couple years ago, so I'm not entirely sure where I got my information from. Thanks, that's very good to know. I guess violence must be cultural, considering how in Finland for example, most people own a gun, but murders of all kinds are fairly low. Too much for my small mind to consider.
Yes and people still break them all the time. Just because something is illegal doesnt prevent it from happening.
evn0 · 16 points · Posted at 19:21:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But the rate at which those laws are broken is significantly lower than in countries where regulations are lax. You would be insane to say that an Indian or Chinese road is as safe as the average American road, and in this context is an obvious and clear net benefit.
No problem of this nature will ever be fully and permanently solved, but it can be risk managed through policy.
And we have regulations for guns: who can buy them, what kinds they can buy, how you can transport them, how you can carry them (or not), how they are stored (in some states), the qualifications needed to carry them in public (most states), etc..
Thank you for your input but that statement isn't relevant to this chain of comments. Move up a couple branches and then repeat what you said and you will make more sense.
The average Joe has a gun where I live. Rural America has the most guns per person, and the lowest murder rates.
[deleted] · 6 points · Posted at 18:24:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is a false equivalency.
Knives have useful purposes other than to kill things.
Guns do not.
You cannot do anything productive with a gun; it's only use is to destroy something else. Knives and blades can prepare food, fashion furniture, shave, create art.
Guns can only put a hole into something.
Now, I'm not against people using guns for sport or for hunting. But I think it should be VERY hard to get a gun, because it is VERY easy to make a deadly mistake with a gun. There's plenty of responsible gun owners out there who are careful and responsible with their weapons. They can keep their guns. But we should make it VERY hard for idiots and irresponsible people to get guns.
Guns are the best tool for self-defense, that is its function. Why should I not use the best tool for self defense availible? Nobody has ever tried to claim that guns arent not best for killing things. The issue is whether the death was rightful or not.
Would you use a fork to eat soup?
[deleted] · 15 points · Posted at 20:56:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Unfortunately guns are not exclusively used for self-defense, so bringing up self-defense as an argument for making them extremely easily accessible is an incomplete argument.
I'm all for having guns in the hands of people whose only intention is to use them for hunting, sport, or self-defense. I think those people should have to go through a LOT to get their hands on those guns, because if they're so invested in having the best tool for self defense (or hunting or sport), they should have the wherewithal and merit to go through extreme vetting.
Have as many guns as you want. I don't care. Just make it hard to get your hands on them.
They already go through an FBI background check when they try to purchase the gun what more do you want?
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 13:22:35 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think you should have to go through weapons training courses and complete a certain number of hours at a range with an instructor before you can go home with a firearm. You should have to pass a test showing that you know how to assemble, dissemble (when applicable, obviously not all guns can be broken down), clean, load, and fire your weapon with reasonable accuracy. You should have to pass a written test demonstrating that you understand your state's laws and federal laws regarding firearm ownership, sales, and use. You should also have to demonstrate that you have proper storage for your weapon (i.e., a safe with a code or key) and that if you have young children, you have a means of ensuring that they cannot get their hands on that gun without your supervision.
Passing a background check is fine, and necessary, but it doesn't mean you're going to be a good gun owner. These sorts of steps would ensure that people who own guns are responsible about it. Lots of gun owners already do everything I described and could pass any test with flying colors.
I understand where you are coming from but that would drastically affect the ability of lower income Americans to access their second amendment rights and could be seen as infringement.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:07:52 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
These things don't have to cost money for the individual. Instructors could be government employees, not private, who offer their services at no cost to an individual. State and federally-operated ranges could be set up and special hours could be established for those who work long/irregular hours. Test and study materials could be accessed at public libraries. Safes could be subsidized if a gun owner can prove they're in financially dire straights.
Either way, the cost argument doesn't really make sense when you think about the expenses necessary for gun ownership; guns and ammunition are not cheap to begin with. In most cases, if one has the extra income necessary to afford to buy, maintain, and use a firearm, they can afford training. Most gun owners go to ranges to use their weapons anyway. In theory, by your logic, the fact that guns cost money at all could be construed as a deprivation of 2nd amendment rights for low-income Americans.
Knives have useful purposes other than to kill things. Guns do not.
You cannot do anything productive with a gun; it's only use is to destroy something else. Knives and blades can prepare food, fashion furniture, shave, create art.
Knives can cut food, cut furniture, cut hair, cut other things to create art. Knives cut, that is their only purpose. What to choose to cut is up to the individual. Guns shoot bullets. That is their only function. What the individual chooses to shoot is up to them. They can shoot animals for food or furniture, can't cut hair with it, you can also use guns for art.
So other than knives being better at cutting hair, what's the difference between the two tools?
[deleted] · 10 points · Posted at 20:51:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The fact that you can't kill a dozen people in 30 seconds with a knife.
[deleted] · 5 points · Posted at 21:41:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm confused as to what you're trying to say. Is your opinion that knives and guns are equally deadly? Linking to that article seems to suggest that you think this one example of a very deadly knife attack means something with regard to guns. It means nothing. 10 men working together with meat cleavers is not the same as one person with an automatic rifle. Imagine if those 10 men had had automatic weapons. Hundreds would have been killed.
You said knives have many different uses. But their only purpose is to cut. What you choose to cut isn't related to the knife itself.
I never compared the lethality of knives and guns. You did. You said you can't kill a dozen people in thirty seconds with a knife, implying that they aren't as deadly. As a response I brought up a situation where there were mass casualties dues to a knife. Sure one knife vs one gun isn't a fair fight but to diminish the dangers of a blade in the hand of someone who means to cause harm is foolish. I pointed out that a knife can cause just as much death as a gun in response to you.
The Bataclan massacre was three people with automatic weapons over the course of two and a half hours and 90 people died. Somehow your math doesn't add up.
[deleted] · 10 points · Posted at 22:28:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So do you have a point in this discussion other than to just act as a contrarian to my point? If you're bringing up things just to argue against me, I don't really care what you have to say. If you have something you're standing for, then please continue--but make it clear what it is that you're here to say other than "I disagree with namename77"
In four years of arguing with random people on Reddit you are the first to call me out for being contrarian. Congratulations, you have my upvote.
[deleted] · 4 points · Posted at 02:01:37 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Fair enough. I'm happy you took the time to challenge me on my beliefs--always good practice to clarify and reconsider why I believe the things I believe.
This is ridiculous. The only purpose of a knife is to cut, you say. True enough, after a fashion; but "the only function of a gun is to shoot bullets" is just disingenuous. The only function, or purpose of a gun is to fucking kill - not "shoot bullets". A knife cuts, but generally speaking, it is a tool; a gun is a weapon, period. It has no other uses; and it's a damn sight more efficient at its single purpose than any knife, axe, car, greasy hamburger, alcohol or cigarette you can throw in the discussion as a rhetorical expedient.
So, a knife can cause as much death as a gun? Sure; and hey, there have been cases of entire families poisoned by leaky boilers which, just as your deadly knife example, has fuck all to do with the dangers inherent to widespread gun possession.
You dislike gun control, OK, suit yourself; but perhaps you should try a different approach to rationalising the whole idea.
What else does a gun do other than shoot bullets? If the only function of a firearm is to kill then I should be in jail hundreds of thousands of times over. But I've never killed anyone so that argument is bunk. I'm not against common sense gun control (see what I did there?) but the best argument for it is that guns kill people. Cars kill ten times as many people as guns (not including suicides) yet their utility is justification enough to keep them around?
I don't know if you're trolling, or you just... Don't get it. It's not what it does; it's what its function is. A car's primary function is not to kill. You're using logical fallacies, and they simply don't work.
I don't get it. A car's primary function isn't to kill people yet an unintentional side effect is death in the realm of 30,000 people per year in America. And everyone is ok with it. A gun's primary function is used 3,000 times per year and that is what people get butthurt about. That is what I don't understand.
The argument of "guns are meant for death" is an emotional one and is easy to tout. My argument of "there are greater threats to life than guns" is based on statistics.
Again?! Here, let me show you why your car (or whatever) argument is a logical fallacy. Anything can kill people. Vitamins and toothpicks kill people. But do you know what didn't directly kill anyone in the last, oh, 20 years? Nuclear bombs. So why don't we let, say, Iran have their own? I mean, we let them have cars! And before you answer "why, because they could use them to kill thousands" - yes they could, just like some deranged American teenager could use a gun to murder a bunch of his schoolmates. So it seems to me that if we have set up restrictions that make it very, very hard for Iran to become dangerous, it wouldn't be such a bad idea to come up with something similar for the deranged teenager.
Also, for the love of argument: yes, cars kill lots of people. But consider: to be allowed to drive you need a license, and you must wear a seatbelt. How many more would die if anyone could just jump in a car and speed away, no seatbelts, no airbags?
Nuclear bombs have killed hundreds of thousands in only two instances of use. That is why we are trying to keep certain countries from having those capabilities. Not a very good analogy. You claim I'm using false equivalence but I'm not. I'm simply stating that guns killing people CANNOT be a valid reason to get rid of them. If guns kill 3000, auto accidents kill 30,000, and alcohol kills 88,000 people per year and you're only focusing on guns, you have a serious misdirection of priorities. And seeing as prohibition was repealed and more people own cars than guns, although there are more guns than cars, I don't see that changing anytime soon.
[deleted] · 7 points · Posted at 23:07:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A knife is 99% of the time used to cut foods, hair, etc.
A gun is used to kill someone else in self defence only 3.5% of the time, if we count all gun homicides excluding suicide. 96.5% of the time, they are used to unlawfully murder another.
And a gun's main purpose is to take someone else's life. A knife's main purpose is not.
arc31 · 4 points · Posted at 19:09:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The only use of guns is to cause harm to humans and animals (very efficiently). Knives have non violent uses and aren't nearly as lethal guns. Apart from that most European countries and even America have knife restrictions. Downvote me all you want but this argument makes no sense.
[deleted] · -12 points · Posted at 15:11:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Wow I mean that's a great argument you got there man. My golly apparently knives are as lethal as guns now. All those child deaths in the US from knives could be stopped with knife control! If only we'd known sooner!
I love Reddit. People just downvote you while slowly caressing their guns. You're absolutely right that knives aren't even close to guns when it comes to danger.
Anything that presents a choking hazard kills people. If we have choking hazard control, we will save lives. If you don't support me, you don't care about children dying.
And guns don't have warning labels on them, the way potential choking hazards do. Are you seriously saying choking hazards and guns would be effectively regulated the same way? That's fucking stupid. Do you not understand the idea of appropriate regulation? Of fucking course choking hazards don't warrant a background check. They do warrant a label. So, yes we do in fact have choking hazard control.
Now this next part I don't know for certain, but I would not be surprised in the least to find out that regulatory bodies have more pages dedicated to choking hazards than to guns.
When did I say any of that? I wanted to make a joke by pointing out a difference between the two because everybody has been comparing shit above me. Maybe my humor wasn't as obvious as it should have been. That's on me. Don't assume so much from a single sentence though. You just end up arguing with a strawman.
Your only sentence was the implication that choking hazards need a background check. I asked a simple question. Your humor was completely irrelevant to the argument at hand; and if you were only joking you should have said that before continuing to talk out of your ass. I didn't assume anything. I took what you said to the logical extent.
I didn't imply shit. I pointed out a difference between two things. I didn't say that they should be the same or if it was good/bad that there is a difference. If you didn't think it was funny I get it, but I didn't say the things you're arguing against.
fps916 · 5 points · Posted at 21:13:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's about scale. No one thinks we can eliminate all death but we can severely limit the deaths that occur if we get rid of their largest tool. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good
Knife control is a good idea! it doesn't equate to the banning of knives - but there are many countries (the UK, for one) where it is illegal to be wandering about in public with a large knife and no valid reason.
Do you really think someone who wants to use a large knife (or a gun) is going to think "well I guess since its illegal to use outside the house I wont go over and stab (or shoot) this person"
Well no, but since the law makes it legal to arrest them on their way, it does obviously help.
I seriously doubt that most knife crimes are premeditated in this way. People carrying knives around are using them when provoked, in gang violence etc. If you make it problematic for large knives to be carried around without the risk of arrest, you do lessen the likelihood of knife crime.
Can't really see the advantage of making your own knife - nobody is suggesting that sales of knives should be banned...
So where has strict gun control demonstrably curtailed a substantial problem with gun violence... ever??? Naming places that never had a substantial problem with gun violence even when they had liberal gun laws like Australia or Great Britain doesn't count.
[deleted] · 9 points · Posted at 14:59:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah I mean look more guns means more people will die. You can defend your 2nd amendment rights to the teeth but you have to accept that fact.
Thats just false, Switzerland has more guns than many other European countries, yet they have far fewer homicides and suicides than those countries. The US has way more guns than any other country yet we aren't leading in murders , and have half of the world ahead of us.
XdsXc · 1 points · Posted at 12:33:58 on August 20, 2017 · (Permalink)
You didn't address his point, you went off on a talking point tangent. You can be pro-gun and pro-choice, while understand both arguments that banning those things doesn't really achieve anything close to abolition of those things.
That's your point, which you wanted to get out in the first place. However wrong they might be, you're allowed to just say it without feeling the need to piggyback off of anything else.
I don't, you simply can't admit that you are just being political and disingenuous right now. The fact is you can't say abortion shouldn't be made illegal because then they will just do back alley abortions, it wont even stop them. The n act like gun control will make guns go away.
He addressed your cognitive dissonance and you deflected with some bullshit talking point and virtue signalling.
Maybe try someone who gives a shit what a gun nut thinks about gun control. I'm interested in having a discussion with someone who lives in reality - the reality that the rest of the world lives in.
Good luck in your search for a rube that will reinforce your previously held beliefs and pat you on the back for telling the truth. Might I suggest r/guns, r/conservative, r/conspiracy, or r/coontown? You'll find plenty in common with the fine folk who roam those parts.
Maybe try someone who gives a shit what a gun nut thinks about gun control. I'm interested in having a discussion with someone who lives in reality - the reality that the rest of the world lives in.
Wow, so you talk about nuts and reality yet you jump off the deep end when a person challenges your conflicting thought processes.
Lol what, why do you think I am racist or a conspiracy nut? Just because I don't think gun control actually works, just like banning abortion doesn't work?
Don't feel the need to restrict yourself to my suggestions. I just picked the ones that espouse the same outlook on guns as you do. The fact that they're full of other shit views is just coincidental.
Suddenly your target is controversial and every recent comment by him is negative while yours are all positive in what was a dead thread. It so transparent. Yet I'm brigading by pointing out your obvious bullshit.
Do you actually fucking exist, mate? Is this a real person's actual thought process? God, I hope you're trolling.
[deleted] · 5 points · Posted at 20:33:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Wow that's an incredibly useless comparison. The latter is something people desperately need if they're not prepared for a pregnancy or a child. The former is something people statistically do NOT need. Showing data on Chicago which has gun control is useless if neighboring cities don't have he same laws.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 16:47:59 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
lol you've become the thing you mock. You dislike what I wrote so your response was a jab that had nothing to do with the above.
arc31 · 2 points · Posted at 12:22:16 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
It would probably decrease abortion rates as many women might not want to risk death but the main reason I am pro choice is because the rights of an adult is worth more than an unborn child.
y0y · 1 points · Posted at 18:28:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It would be very difficult to ban guns in the US, but it has been done in other countries and gun usage in those countries is now near-zero.
Abortions have been banned before in the US and illegal abortions continued to happen, regardless.
Right? Even without 3D printing (since it still is stupidly expensive right?) it wouldn't work.
Zreaz · 3 points · Posted at 20:25:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
3D printing in general is actually getting pretty damn cheap (relatively of course). 3D printing a working gun that won't blow up though? Yea, still expensive.
Personally, I believe the issue is that the US doesn't have uniform gun laws that apply the same way throughout all 50 states. It's easier to acquire firearms legally in some states compared to others, and that could lead to gun smuggling.
I'm unsure what's the federal minimum when it comes to gun laws tbh, so I can't tell if it's just the lack of law, or lack of enforcement.
evn0 · 1 points · Posted at 19:24:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Did you miss the first sentence of their comment? Now that we've come this far it's near impossible to turn the wheels back, obviously. But had things panned out differently and we were in a space where guns could effectively be removed, then gun crime would all but cease.
y0y · 0 points · Posted at 19:23:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I do. That's why I say it'd be very difficult in America. But reality shows us that it can happen.
You realize that at that point only people who are willing to own a gun illegally would have them, right? So murder would probably only decrease minimally, and actual innocent people wouldn't have them as an outlet for self-defense?
y0y · 1 points · Posted at 19:28:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'll take actual fact from observed events in other countries over your conjecture.
I also don't support banning guns so I don't care to argue the semantics. I just believe it is possible because it has been proven so in other countries.
because everyone who disagrees with you believes that murder is ok. Is there not a single different perspective they could be coming from? I think you need to read some of the the comments about polarization.
Gun control would work if it weren't so easy to get guns. So many people have guns now that if you try to take them away from the people, only the bad guys would still have them, leaving the innocent people as easy targets. Since guns are so engrained into the public now, getting rid of them or trying to take full control is impossible. It's best to let people defend themselves
This is more of a 50% issue than a 90% issue. Depends on where you live, of course.
As a gun owner and general supporter of firearms I do agree that gun control is a good thing. My state has some laws going through the state senate that could legalize open and concealed carry without a permit of any kind. This is pretty worrysome to me.
The concealed weapons permit test in my state requires a shooting test where you have to land 35/50 shots on target from various ranges.Most people pass with somewhere between 45-50 shots. If you have any experience with guns it's pretty easy to pass with 50/50. When I took my test the woman beside me failed, not just a small failure of 34/50 either.
At 5yds (the first shooting distance) she was missing. She was shooting the floor, a good 5 ft below the target.
That woman should not have a license to carry a firearm. She was so scared of the gun she couldn't even use it properly in a controlled situation. I'd hate to see her try to fire at an assailant in a stressful situation.
Of course that's the discussion around who should be able to carry a gun, I have a feeling you're saying gun control in a much stricter sense.
What's your opinion on the issue? Should we be allowed to own guns? How difficult should it be to purchase a gun? How regulated should the ownership of firearms be? Interested to hear your thoughts.
No, it isn't. What you are saying is very naive, objectively untrue, and needlessly antagonistic.
You are not a better person than gun owners, in any way. In fact, as they exercise responsibility every day, I suspect that they are better people than you.
You're saying if you buy a gun and can resist the urge to start murdering people, then you're a better person, as you put it, than someone who doesn't own one?
I agree with the sentiment, but like any issue, it's not that cut and dry.
Though, I happen to be a gun owner who is all for tighter restrictions, background checks, some kind of mental health check, etc. I certainly don't have all of the answers or a finely tuned plan to be implemented, but I agree, strict control would save lives.
It hasn't worked for Brazil, Russia, Jamaica, or Venezuela. If the policy is that good it should work no matter what.
The true correlation is that people with a better standard of living are less likely to die. The US has seen its standard of living slip in the last 10 years or so.
Realistically it only chances the weapon used. There hasn't been a country that had an overall reduction in homicide rate directly attributable to gun control. Overall homicide rates were dropping in 1st world countries for years prior to gun control implementation, and the rate of decline wasn't altered in any way in any of the affected countries.
Now I know I'm a little late to the party, but I'd like to just ask if you're just talking about stricter rules on gun control or just flat out banning guns?
[deleted] · -6 points · Posted at 15:01:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No one is convinced because gun control doesn't work. Look at places like Chicago, California and New York. All of them have extremely restrictive gun laws, forcing law abiding citizens to forego owning a weapon, yet criminals are more than able to procure high-caliber firearms. All gun control does is take away people's right to defend themselves.
[deleted] · 4 points · Posted at 20:34:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Their neighboring cities don't have those laws. Makes it pretty obviously useless. Gun control =\= taking away your guns, regardless of what Hannity tells you.
[deleted] · 4 points · Posted at 15:55:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Look at examples where entire countries have successfully implemented gun control like Australia and the UK. They are much better examples then states having gun controls which can be circumvented by taking a short drive.
Look at examples where entire countries have successfully implemented gun control like Australia and the UK. They are much better examples then states having gun controls which can be circumvented by taking a short drive.
Gun control in the UK is pretty easy since, again, guns weren't a huge problem there in the first place. The difference most of these places have is that rights in many of these nations are not 'God given' and are in the hands of the state, i.e why the massive surveillance state exists in the UK and why government intrusion is largely able to happen as rights are not inherently given.
Again, most states will not sell you guns with an out of state license so this point really doesn't work anymore. Many loopholes have been closed in recent years
[deleted] · 7 points · Posted at 16:03:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So what about Australia, which has large rural areas and a major history with guns, due to a massive presence of farming and small towns, and yet was able to successfully implement gun control and eradicate all mass shootings since 1997. Is that not a comparable situation to America?
Zreaz · 3 points · Posted at 20:35:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Don't think either of those countries were created with their second rule being "you can own guns and the government can not tell you that you can't"
[deleted] · -6 points · Posted at 15:42:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Australia and the UK are not viable examples in your scenario. These countries never really had a frontier culture like the US has had as almost all of the population in confined to a few major cities. Up until the early 20th century, many people literally lived in the wilderness and had to fend for themselves.
Using different states as examples doesn't work because if gun control in an adjacent state is non existent it's not going to be nearly as difficult to procure guns elsewhere
Try going to a Indiana with an Illinois ID and try buying a gun and tell me how that goes, many states will not sell you guns with an out of state license.
Look at the UK or Australia. The amount of deaths at the hands of guns is tiny. I don't understand people like you who refuse to acknowledge the success of gun control in other countries.
Most of these countries never really had guns in the first place so it would be pretty easy to regulate against something that doesn't really exist. Your argument is ignoring lots of important contexts that differentiate the US and other countries
Ok, that's understandable. But if there is no other country comparable to the US in this regard then examine the current state of affairs. Gun control is not strict across the nation and gun deaths are consistently high.The only thing that hasn't been tested is strict gun control across the board. I just can't believe that people really want guns to defend themselves rather than because they like them.
ws_volt · 3 points · Posted at 16:07:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Youre comparing two island nations of much smaller populations without a cultural history of guns to the US which borders a country notorious for smuggling illicit goods into said country.
Couldn't you argue we are already flooded? Gun laws have relaxed in the last decade yet gun crime has declined since the 90s. Unless they are giving them away I can't imagine there being more guns in America than there are. Meaning the availability, not the actual number.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 15:13:08 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's not the point. I don't think we need guns to prevent crime, although the stats on that could be argued. We need the right to guns because we need the right to protect ourselves from government tyranny. If you don't think government tyranny is a problem then pick up a history book.
warpg8 · -1 points · Posted at 19:18:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Saying strict gun control saves lives is like saying that strict abstinence-only education prevents pregnancy or strict drug laws prevent drug addiction.
Background checks and a 3 day waiting period are totally appropriate. Yes, we need to do away with the loopholes. But beyond that, gun violence isn't a gun problem, it's a mental health problem, just like drug addiction isn't a drug problem, it's a health problem, just like teen pregnancy isn't a sex problem, it's a health problem.
If quality mental healthcare were available to everyone (say, via Medicare for All), then we'd be handling the source of the issue instead of the symptom.
Wait a second, now you are talking about discrimination.
Different issue. Of course we discriminate. I would not talk to someone who is mentally reatrded in the same way I would talk to a college graduate.
Prejudice means treating people not as who they personally are, but as you would treat the group to which you think they belong. Expecting all Asians to be good at math is just as bad as expecting all black people to be good at basketball.
I did. I found it irrelevant, other than saying that treating everyone nicely is nice.
Did you read it?
Okay, so you lucked out based on a factor that you had no personal control over. But you're in, so let's get to work. Your boss probably has somewhat higher expectations about you than your coworkers. People like you are supposed to be whizzes with computers or kids! So when your performance is merely adequate, and not outstanding, perhaps your yearly bonus will be less than expected. When your colleague screws up a joint project, perhaps you ("of all people!") will be expected to have known better. Your lustrous halo starts slipping down around your neck, transmuting into a wooden stock.
What if I am giving it all I got and in the process I learn even more and start applying what I learned right away. Wouldn't that be more than my 100% now?
you would still be giving 100% of your effort. However your effort could be of a value that is 10% greater than it was at the beginning. Which would mean that you are giving 110% of effort compared to your original effort. However you are still giving 100% of what you are capable of giving.
Yup, had to clarify the context. Percentages are relative unless you are talking about something that is limited, your effort, ability, how much I care about this thread, etc.
Your capacity to work would be 100%, when you aren't doing your best it would be less than 100%. If you get better and more productive, and work at capacity you are still working at 100%.
However if you are measuring someone's output, that's different. Then they might produce 10% more or even 110% more, but their effort or ability to work would still not exceed 100%.
The two party system in the US comes as a result of our election laws, not the media, not the fact that third parties aren't allowed into debates, not the lack of ranked choice voting, or any of the other explanations that third party advocates tend to focus on. As long as we have a winner takes all system (where the candidate with the most votes receives all of the electoral votes, or the congressional seat up for election), there are strong incentives for a two party system. If you want a viable third party in the US, push for states to divide up their electoral votes and House seats based on the proportion of the vote in the state that each party receives. The other options will have little to no impact.
rob5i · 2 points · Posted at 15:31:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In a traffic jam it's incredibly ignorant to be right on bumper of the car in front of you. You need to relax and coast not constantly pounding on the accelerator and brakes.
This might be a long shot - but I don't think many people can explain how we know the earth is round. I had my first run in with a flat earther who was moderately good at debate. Now I'm no science major but with only a few simple observations I was able to really have him second guessing the whole flat earth thing. Apparently no one else had taken the time explain some basics to him.
Bonus points - when debating a flat earther - don't use facts they already reject as false, that's not going to help. Use things that are easily explained or observed. Also - don't belittle, or condescend - be friendly and help them.
So there seriously are people that believe this? I can understand people thinking the moon landing was faked, although they are whacked. But the flat earth thing is real? Why would they think this. I would hate to hear the words that would come out of their mouth.
Yea, I recently joined a new crew at work and two of fifteen were avid flat earthers. It was really fascinating (in a scary kind of way) hearing them out. Their theories on what is actually going on are fun to hear, and some of the points they make are even plausible, but only for a second until you actually start contemplating them. I think that's why they're gaining such momentum - people don't stop to think about it. It SOUNDS like it could actually be real and the flat earthers start throwing math formulas and other pseudo facts around - people just believe them. Then they go online and get echo chamebered and positively reinforced.
Just because someone doesn't like something you say or do doesn't mean they don't like you as a person. Nobody is 100% likable and there are things that people who love/like you won't care for.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 16:34:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The people rallying in Charlottesville wanted counter protesters to show up. The nazis would have shouted themselves to boredom eventually if no one showed up to yell back at them.
As someone who works at a burger joint, I can tell you, it does not matter. Ketchup is a disturbing substance, yes you can keep it cool, but it won't go bad anyways. Another bit that I did not pick up on my own, the stuff will not go bad until a good chunk of time after the expiration date.
That in America there's no such thing as moving up into a new tax bracket because you earn more. A disturbing number of people seem to think that getting a raise means all of your income is taxed at a higher rate. While your earnings over a certain level are taxed more, you don't just move up into a new bracket because of increased earnings.
Eh, you're right about progressive taxes but many people that make this complaint are going over the limit for some program. Tax credits/ welfare, affordable housing, etc. All have hard cutoff criteria that a raise or full time from part time can cause someone to have lower net money when those programs going away is factored in.
The only people I've ever heard complain about (in my personal experience) it are middle/upper-middle class people who grew up under common conservative tropes that aren't really true at all.
I see. Low end of the earnings spectrum it can matter much more. IRA deductions and stuff phase out far enough apart that you still have a net increase
The world isn't so black and white to have 'good' and 'bad' clearly separated. There is always another side to the story, and everyone has their own idea of how to justify their actions.
Most people don't know what logical fallacies are, much less how to even spot them. It's not really surprising these days, and the 90% aren't entirely at fault either. But the most common thing I run into when debating things with people are things like an ad hominem (verbally attacking the person instead of the argument itself) or red herring (straying from the argument, going off on a tangent of little to no relation with the original).
There's a bunch more, I'd highly advise people to at least make themselves familiar with it. I can't tell people to strictly adhere to them like gospel because I don't always myself, nor is it realistic to believe in such a thing. But I long for a day when I can discuss something with someone and not the metaphorical pigeon who likes to shit all over the chess board.
Edit: Because I forgot to throw it in, [Check out this site](www.yourlogicalfallacyis.com) if you want to get a quick overview on the most common fallacies.
3ulaF0x · 2 points · Posted at 17:07:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The alt right is a very small group of people. The media makes it look like a civil war is about to break out
Nelav · 2 points · Posted at 17:17:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When one person says something and another person from the same group/subreddit says something that is paradox, it doesnt mean they are hypocrites... they are different, unique people...
The real distance from the earth to the moon. A useful, if rough, analogy is that if the earth is the size of your fist, the moon is about the size of your eyeball.
If you ask people to put their fist about as far from their eye as they thing the moon orbits the earth most of them will put it maybe a foot away, sometimes less.
In reality you'd have to cut off their hand and walk about 9 feet away with it to have the scale right.
y0y · 1 points · Posted at 18:39:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
To be fair, you're asking them to do something impossible. The nature of the question implants into their mind that it's possible, so they guess from there.
More like 99%. People have no idea what current and voltage really mean. Much less capacitance or how transistors work. And I mean most people on average.. probably a lot more know on Reddit. :)
90% of people don't understand why the search function doesn't even work half the time.
Kiezguy · 2 points · Posted at 17:25:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to properly set sideview mirrors for a car. Spoiler alert: if you can see the side of your car in the mirror, you've set them wrong and eliminated their purpose. You now have 3 rear view mirrors and 0 side view mirrors. The blind spot is a myth, you don't have a blindspot if you set them correctly
Oh my god yes! I do this so I don't have a blind spot and my wife doesn't so every lane change she has to check her blind spot. Then gets in my car and changes the mirrors, if I don't immediately notice I'll be checking my mirrors as usual and there will be someone in my newly created blind spot that I'll almost hit. Had to explain the whole thing to her now she just doesn't drive my car. Also why would I need to see the freaking side of my car?
Kiezguy · 1 points · Posted at 14:05:26 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Exactly. People say they don't know where they are looking if they can't see their car as a reference point, as if there is some bandit running around shifting people's mirrors ever so slightly from where they were originally set to. It's just frustrating.
2) Drive past slowly until you can't see the car in you peripheral vision.
3) STOP. Set side mirrors so you can see the car well.
4) Slowly drive forward and make sure the car is visible in your side mirrors until it's visible in your rear view mirror.
5) Repeat for other side.
6) Done.
Kiezguy · 2 points · Posted at 14:38:01 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah that's a good way to check that it's 100% correct. You can also do it when you are sitting still if you are in a hurry. For the drivers side mirror, put your head right next to your window and move the mirror outward until you can barely see the edge of your car. Do the same thing for the passenger side but position your head so it's almost over the center console. Gotta make sure your head is in line with your normal driving position in regards to front/back when you do it tho. Hopefully that will help save you some time if your wife keeps moving it. Doesn't provide quite as good of a result but gets you in the ballpark.
d0ubleR · 2 points · Posted at 17:25:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That the other 10% found it out the hard way and are trying to educate you.
Password encryption/hashing. A lot of people seem to think that they can just ask the IT guys what their password is when they forget it, and it can simply be found stored in some sort of database letter-for-letter.
assiraN · 2 points · Posted at 17:28:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When people say "I could care less", when the phrase is actually "I couldn't care less". Also along a similar line, when people say yes when asked "Do you mind?" when you should say no.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 17:30:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
90% of people don't understand that math is 81% math and 52% skill.
Hoten · 2 points · Posted at 17:31:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The ending to Lost.
L O S T
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 17:32:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That I don't have to respect your opinion. I respect your right to have one, but not necessarily the content.
A number of times I have called someone's opinon stupid and they have said - why can't you be respectful of my opinion?
I don't have to be. Some opinions are dumb. Some of mine are dumb to other people. I don't have to respect your opinions. A world where we respected each other's opinions and did not call out things we thought were bullshit would not develop.
You have a right to an opinion, not to said opinon being respected. I respect no one can force you not be an anti vaxxer but I can also call you a moron for being an anti vaxxer. I don't have to respect your opinion or you, just your right to have one and to exist.
The difference between being an introvert and being an extrovert isn't a level of social anxiety or a willingness to involve oneself in activities with other people, it's just a difference in where someone gets their energy. Introverts get their social battery filled by spending time alone, extroverts get their social battery filled by spending time with other people. Simple!
jmit81 · 2 points · Posted at 17:34:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Why someone with social anxiety or awkwardness has trouble talking to someone. Or if someone is always worried about what someone is thinking that they can just stop thinking about it. It's not that easy
That the values of Conservatives vs. Liberals change over time. What Liberals once fought for, Conservatives now hold to be close beliefs.
Conservatives used to argue against interracial marriage while Liberals fought for it, now it's the same with gay marriage. They even use the same old arguments.
Even all the way back to discovering the new world. Conservatives wanted to stay in Britain and keep the monarchy, while liberals were the ones setting sail for the new world and ushering in reform that led to the founding of America (the holy grail of Conservatism now).
This isn't to say Conservative are holding us back, they are a voice of caution as we move forward. We still need to learn from history.
Irelgbt · 1 points · Posted at 18:00:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
GURL it's so funny too looking back on history and seeing it repeat itself is so funny
And there may be a new mechanism by which multiple types of cancers can be treated...
But malignant tumours are a massively heterogeneous group of entities - a huge spectrum of diseases that, in some cases, share absolutely no similarities apart from the layman's designation as "cancer"
Suicide, bad teeth, depression and drug addiction. I've dealt with suicidal ideation and attempts since I was 12 or so and depression even longer than that. I'm not nor have I been a drug addict unless cigarettes or marijuana count but my dad is an alcoholic and always has been and my mom is addicted to gambling and pills. When the family doctor found mom lying about her pill usage when I was a kid our family insurance dropped us including dental so I didn't get to go to the dentist anymore. I'm 25 now, in extreme pain everyday with teeth that are rotting in my mouth similar to what one might imagine a crack addict looks like. We lived on a native reservation that was consistently out of running water so I drank Pepsi almost exclusively as a kid or I'd drink whatever bottled water we could afford since it never went on sale like Pepsi did. Didn't help that dad was a mean drunk and stepped on my face a couple times breaking them further. I'm far too poor and embarrassed to seek help now so I just deal with it day in and out. The depression, anxiety and dental issues make eating something I dread doing so I've lost weight until I become 119 pounds at 6 foot 1 in height.
I have suspected as much, but I am only familiar with the American and Western European perspectives on the matter.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 17:39:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That one person doesn’t represent the whole group i.e. legit ANY group like: religions, races, genders, sports teams, friend groups, political groups, or nationalities.
Everyone is different and it’s stupid to use your hate for one person and justify it towards the whole group.
Allergies. Maybe not 90%, but still a shit ton. I asked a patient about their allergies. This person said, "I'm allergic to Epinephrine." I said, "What does it do to you?" Patient says "It makes my heart race" with a completely straight face. No, that's not an allergy. You body makes it naturally and I'll give it to you to fix a severe allergic reaction.
Amen to that! My GF is Type 1, and has worked at the same small company for 17 years... and her boss still doesn't understand the difference! She (the boss) is always suggesting my GF ask her doctor about some new drug (for type 2) or new treatment (for type 2) or new diet (for type 2). NONE OF THAT IS GOING TO HELP SOMEONE WITH TYPE 1 DIABETES, WHICH MY GF HAS TOLD YOU SHE HAS AT LEAST 5,829 TIMES!
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 17:52:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
People are bewildered by the fact that I was diagnosed as a Type I at the age of 5 with an extremely low body weight. Type I is either genetic or triggered by a currently unknown cause.
The adage that people are afraid to make more or MORE of their income will be taken by the government.
It doesn't work like that
If the tax rate is 10% at under $200,000 and 50% above $200,000.... it doesn't mean if you earn $199,999 you will keep $179,000 but if you make $201,000 that you suddenly only keep $100,000.50
"Well why would I want to make more than $200k?? Then I'll MAKE LESS!"
Wrong.
It is a tier. From 0-200k those dollars are taxed at rate X but once you enter the next bracket THOSE dollars are taxed at rate Y... and so on as you move up the brackets.
QLC459 · 2 points · Posted at 17:48:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The national debt isn't the same thing as an individual's debt (student loans, credit card, etc) and is not a horrible thing.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 17:53:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How bad excessive plastic consumption is for the entire planet
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 17:55:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That the first amendment only means you won't go to jail for your opinions. It doesn't protect you from losing your job, having people think you're an asshole, or being arrested for a threat or causing a disturbance like yelling "Fire!" in a movie theater.
This is a big one, especially in America. The "free healthcare" that many beg for could not possibly cover all that health insurance would cover. Healthcare would cover routine visits to the doctor, treatment, and prevention of disease. This would most likely NOT cover injuries and illnesses such as a broken bone, cancer, or surgeries. Health insurance, which you pay for to cover financial loss due to health problems or illnesses. It provides coverage for medicine, visits to the doctor or the emergency room, hospital stays and other medical expenses. It is extremely unreasonable to expect free healthcare that would cover emergency hospital visits and other unforeseen medical costs.
I just had a long winded argument with a guy who insisted that since Virgin brides divorce the least often that proves a causal relationship between number of partners and divorce..
he can't imagine a 3rd variable is controlling for both.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:02:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Telling me to hurry whilst already busting my tail hurrying will either delay the process will make me antsy or fuck up something while trying to go hyper speed. Either way its slowing things down.
Well, 90% is a bit high, but I'm surprised by how many grown-ass, college educated adults don't understand how marginal tax rates work. I've known several people - coworkers, friends, acquaintances, girlfriends - who sweated getting a raise because "it'll put me in a higher tax bracket, and I'll lose money 'cos my taxes will go up".
NEWS FLASH: That's not how taxes work. If a raise bumps you into a higher bracket, you only pay the higher rate on the income that you earn over the bracket.
EXAMPLE: If you make $28,000 and the rate for incomes of $20,000-$29,999 is 20%, you pay $5,600 in taxes. If you get a $3,000 raise - which bumps you to the 30% bracket for people earning $30,000 to $39,999 - you pay $6,300 in taxes: $6,000 at 20% and $300 at 30%. You do not pay 30% on your total income. All other things being equal, it's impossible to "lose" money by getting a raise. You might, of course, lose out on some benefits (like an earned income tax credit)... but that's why I said "all other things being equal".
Explain this: At a factory I worked at in the late 1990s, there was one week where we were required to work 2 hours of overtime each night, so it ended up being a 50-hour week instead of the usual 40-hour week. My net pay was about three dollars less for that week than usual, even though my gross pay was quite a bit more than usual.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:04:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Schrodinger's cat. It's not actually both dead and alive at the same time; it's a thought experiment meant to show flaws in the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics, which says that a physical system is in a superposition of states until observed. Schrodinger didn't subscribe to this interpretation, so he introduced the concept of Schrodinger's cat as an example of why it can't be so, because a cat can't be both dead and alive.
The phrase "the customer is always right". This does not apply to the individual consumer but the market. If the market is demanding a certain product or feature, the vendor should sell/implement it to remain competitive.
It does NOT mean that an individual consumer can demand some whim be catered to like making a return outside of policy, getting free product, getting a CSR fired (for following policy), etc. just because they're "the customer".
When presented with 2 subjects, just because subject A is incorrect or flawed, does not mean subject B is automatically correct, flawless, or containing any more merit than subject A.
That we are made of thousands of traits that all appear all over the bell curve. It's this large distribution that makes us super resilient and adaptable as a species. Diversity is the best thing possible! Embrace it's beauty. Let it make you happy inside when you see differences in others.
Only about 5% of the people in this case, but they sort of stand out:
If, in a right-side-driving country, on the highway, you're in the left lane, there's no one in front of you or to your right but there's another car right behind you, you should move one lane to the right.
That freedom of speech does not equal freedom FROM consequences of that speech, just that the government can't unjustly silence you either by arrest or aggression. Your boss still has every right to sack your ass if they feel your speech reflects poorly on their company and the public at large can condemn and chastise you as much as they see fit.
At no point is choosing your words wisely and being careful of how your words affect others a negligible concept.
Tockity · 2 points · Posted at 18:06:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The left lane is the passing lane. It is used by motorists traveling faster to pass slower moving vehicles. If you are driving slowly in the left lane, you are more dangerous than the person driving faster.
Also, the carpool lane is not required to be used if there are 2 or more people in the car. If you are plodding along at 5 under in the carpool lane, you are impeding traffic. You can go 5 under in the far right lane.
The rules of basic propositional logic, AKA "how to form a valid argument", and perhaps more specifically why those are important.
Common example (abstract): X is true. Bob believes X. Bob reads an argument in support of X. The argument is invalid, or invokes a false premise, but because the conclusion agrees with what Bob believes, Bob also agrees with the argument. Bob is affirming the consequent.
Bob now goes and uses part of this invalid argument he has just learned in some other argument. Bob is now an active participant in the obfuscation and suffocation of truth in the world.
that being a pshychopath or sociopath doesn't mean you enjoy murder or torture. i'm neither but i can see that people assuming that would be frustrating.
Njaaaw · 2 points · Posted at 18:12:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That there is anything to understand. They think they have everything figured out.
Income brackets, progressive taxation, and that you owe the same tax at the end of the year regardless of how much gets taken out of your paycheck during the course of the year.
Digital art is art, the computer doesn't do the work for me, it doesn't even make it easier. Drawing and making art is working, it is very tiring. If you do it for a job, its not fun
That just because someone has a first amendment right to the freedom of speech, doesn't mean we have to listen, and doesn't mean we can't talk loudly over them.
First Amendment means the government won't quash your right to speak. It doesn't declare that every citizen has to sit back and listen to you and it doesn't mean your speech is protected with your employer.
"The Cloud" It's not invisible. It's a physical place in a big warehouse probably underground and temperature controlled. It's a big physical place for all your digital shit.
Celebrity endorsements more closely correlate to the amount of money an entity has spent to use their image and not that the representation of said use is clearly the best product, service, political views, charity, etc. Also, this doesn't mean that the celebrity, in turn, knows much of anything about the object being endorsed.
Cutting in and out of lanes while trying to squeeze into the lane that may or may not be moving faster during traffic will not get you to your destination earlier by any substantial measure. You're really just fucking everything else up downstream who have to brake to your bullshit.
The media does NOT have the public's best interest at heart. They exist, well, over 90% of them, to make the public "choose sides" and inflame issues bigger than they really are to sell newspapers and clicks and ratings points
Kurt300 · 2 points · Posted at 18:23:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Retail worker here. If you have a problem with something you've purchased, please tell me what's wrong. Please don't describe the day you purchased it, how nice the salesperson was, why you needed to purchase it, how long you've been shopping here, how much money you've spent here, or how you'll soon need to buy something else here.
If it's not a given, then tell me what I can do for you. Nine times out of ten I'll say sure, follow me, we'll get that taken care of. Please don't give me a life history.
Going to and graduating college/uni (for you non-US'ers) doesn't make you smart, better than anyone else, stand out, lock you into a career of your choice, or wiser.
Not all strands of Autism make you 'stupid' in fact some strands like Hyposensitivity can give you some pretty cool advantages like a higher pain tolerance.
Look, folks. Making over the next "level up" DOES NOT MEAN that your entire income is taxed at that level.
Think of it like buckets. Everyone puts their first $9000 into the first bucket. Everyone from someone who is only going to make $9000 to billionaires. That first bucket is taxed at 10%.
Then, everyone puts in everything above $9000 but less than $38,000 into the next bucket. This bucket is taxed at 15%.
Then everything above $38,000 but less than $92,000 in a third bucket. This is taxed at 25%.
And so on until everything above $420,000 is taxed at 39.6%.
THIS DOES NOT MEAN that the moment you make more than $38,000 that your entire income is taxed at 25%. You're still paying 10% on the first bucket and 15% on the second.
I have known people to turn down pay raises for fear of being bumped into a higher tax bracket.
In terms of taxonomy, humans can't be divided into biological races because we are too genetically similar.
mcewern · 2 points · Posted at 18:29:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That they can live however they want....smoking, drinking, driving dangerously....and they say, "I don't care if I die young!" Many of these folks live until their 60s and can't breathe any more, much less eat, make love, etc. yes, they will die younger, but what they do not realize is that they will not die peacefully in their sleep, or in a bang-up big car crash. Their live will eek away from them....they will spend 8-15 years in creeping disability....at the end they will be on a ventilator (ICU treatment) gasping for their last breath in agony. People! Take care of yourselves! The best gift you can give your children is to live a long and healthy life so that they aren't worried silly about you and whether or not you will live out your next days in suffering and agony.
Sorry, sounds preachy. I am an ICU nurse and get to clean up the messes of this world.
That being wrong is absolutely okay. People seem to go to great lengths to avoid admitting that they were wrong about something but being wrong is perfectly fine. It's part of how we learn and we aren't always going to get everything perfect first time. Shaming people or yourselves for doing a complete 180 on a fact of opinion you have expressed is stupid. Sometimes it's not hypocritical but just someone learning better.
That politics is not about dialectical compromise. It's about power and who you're beholden to for that power. It's fundamentally about who gets what resources in what quantities.
The loudest, most "news-worthy" people are exciting because they are ABNORMAL. They are not a good measure of what is happening with that group, that country, that race, or that political position. If anything, you now know what is common for that group by considering it is the opposite.
Trump is an abnormal president in his speech and temperament. Nazis are an abnormally small group of white Americans. Most religious people are kind, accepting people, so ISIS and Westboro Baptists who hate everything are abnormal.
thelug · 1 points · Posted at 18:57:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Shooting a gun in a car would completely incapacitate you. Your ears drums would rupture. You would basically lose all bodily function, pain would be utterly excruciating.
Net neutrality. If you value speech, you should support this. Nothing good for consumers will come out of implementing repeal of title 2 legislation on ISPs.
sXeGod · 2 points · Posted at 18:34:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Big Bang, Abiogenesis and Evolution.
This is where we all came from. Every living thing are related to each other from the very first single cell organism and before that our atoms came from the single source from the big bang.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:34:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
probability
take a course! it's very useful in life (insurances, gambling)
The 1st amendment. It is incredible how a certain segment of our population that is completely infatuated with the 2nd amendment have absolutely no idea how the previous one works.
dranide · 2 points · Posted at 18:40:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That mom birds will not leave their baby birds to die if a human touches them.
Winning the lottery with the numbers 17,18,19,20,21 is just as likely as winning with whatever "magic combination you came up with"
Zipper merge, people! Two short lines are less disruptive than one long line of cars. Also the car that gets to the front isn't an asshole, they're alleviating traffic behind, and if you expect to let every other car in, there's no reason to get mad at getting cut off.
Counteracting far right hate speech doesn't make you as bad as the fascists, fighting and speaking out against evil and those that will only do harm doesn't make you as bad as them. What does make you as bad as them is defending or staying silent.
"If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor." ~ Desmond Tutu
Nersen · 2 points · Posted at 18:42:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Politics. Even when you are right, you are somehow wrong.
That hate groups, regardless of color, are small pockets of people in the US, but the media reports it as if it's whole cities or states. Then people create the memes and shit and then it gets spread all over my Facebook feed and I have to unfollow people for being stupid.
The country is not headed for Nazisism people.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:43:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When you make an argument in anger, people hear the anger more than what you're saying. You can scream the most profound thing in someone's face, and all they'll take away from it was that some asshole screamed in their face. You destroy your own argument if you're not calm.
That driving sensibly defensive is the fastest way to get to your destination and if everyone drives well that is the best way to prevent slow downs and back ups. Weaving in and out of traffic on multiple lane highways causes back up due to disrupting the routine flow, making others want to move over and creating an ever changing cycle of faster lanes getting bogged down and turning into slower lanes, everyone moves over again, making it hazardous for the people who actually need to switch lanes and creating slowdown. Also zig zagging and driving at inconsistent speeds is shown to be directly correlated with traffic accidents which further slows down traffic.
Also on merge areas The people exiting the freeway slow down and allow the entering traffic to pass them. Drivers entering likewise should speed up and pass the decelerating exiting traffic. Exiting drivers who cut off entering drivers cause backups for everyone behinds them.
Driving faster gives you no advantage except when traveling long distances on open roads with no stops. Those assholes who race from traffic light to traffic light are only wasting gas and wearing down their automobiles.
That despising Trump doesn't automatically make me a Hillary supporter; and you should be able to have a conversation about a candidates faults without finger pointing at the opposite party's wrongdoings.
anuzi · 2 points · Posted at 18:45:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Championships in most sports are a team accomplishment, and shouldn't be used as a main argument when comparing players.
That if you attend political rallies in the current political climate, there will be fighting. Every single rally with counter protesters has ended in violence in the past 3 years. It was only a matter of time before someone died. I'm only surprised it didn't happen sooner, when people were beating the shit out of each other with bike locks.
The death is tragic, but it was expected.
mtb1443 · 2 points · Posted at 18:47:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Once you are dead that is it. So be nice to each other and treat others as you would like to be treated. it is that simple.
If I tell you I'm lactose intolerant and you keep serving me milk and dairy because you "forgot", that means you're mean & stupid, not forgetful. If I tell you I don't drink soft drinks like Coca Cola & Sprite, and you keep forcing it on me because "it's so good though, you're missing out" then you're a jerk.
It's such a basic thing, and very few people respect it.
hot_oil · 2 points · Posted at 18:48:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That the first amendment is protection from criminal prosecution, not public opinion.
Jmersh · 2 points · Posted at 18:48:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That it's possible to be an atheist and a good person.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:50:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Confidence does not imply competence.
aeioewe · 2 points · Posted at 18:50:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to stop deflecting in arguments. Like, if I told my mom she drinks too much, and instead of her saying "I know" or "no I don't," she just says something like, "my friend Beth drinks more than me!" Or, "Donald Trump takes too many vacations; tax payers shouldn't have to pay for his golf trips," vs "well, Obama blah blah blah" Its just never a productive kind of response.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:51:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Speeding between stoplights only causes you to sit longer at the light and wears down your brakes faster.
Humidity in weather reports is relative humidity. The warmer the air the more moisture it will hold so 90% relative humidity air at 50 degrees Fahrenheit is dryer air than air at 85 degree and 50% relative humidity.
Posting about politics on Facebook doesn't change anything
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:54:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just because metal had harsh vocals doesn't mean it's screamo, please for the love of god stop saying this, screamo (I believe) is emo + hardcore and Death is death metal not screamo!
This comment is probably outdated, but I can remember going through the first half of the '90s, trying to explain to people why movies in letterbox actually show you more of the movie's picture.
The problem is: that only applies to movies that were originally shot with an anamorphic lens. With movies that were shot with a flat lens, you see more of the movie's picture in "fullframe", though that additional picture may not be stuff that was intended to be seen. However, a lot of movies were shot with a flat lens with both "widescreen" (theater) and "fullframe" (TV) presentations in mind, so either one is valid from the perspective of what was intended to be seen.
If the movie was 2.35:1 in the theater it was probably shot with an anamorphic lens, and a "fullframe" version will result in a lot of lost picture, and will also usually require a lot of "pan & scan".
If the movie was 1.85:1 in the theater it was probably shot with a flat lens, and a "fullframe" version will have more picture than a 1.85:1 letterboxed version, and it doesn't require "pan & scan".
Today we have the opposite problem: some old TV shows that were originally presented in 4:3 are being cropped to 16:9 for home video releases. Also, some movies which were originally 1.85:1 get cropped to 16:9 (1.78:1) for the home video release, though that's minor compared to cropping 4:3 (1.33:1) to 16:9.
The people who want their movies and TV shows to fit their TV screen will always greatly outnumber people who want the original aspect ratio.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:55:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That under the US Constitution, the right to free speech and peaceable assembly is guaranteed to everyone, even if their speech is abhorrent to most. This includes the right to speech and assembly without allowing suppression. And protecting that right is not at all endorsing the abhorrent speech. Sorry that is uncomfortable for many.
Furfit · 2 points · Posted at 18:55:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's not Electrabuzz. It's Electabuzz. It's not Zapados. It's just Zapdos. And you don't capitalize the two in Mewtwo.
In almost all basic residential cases, a thermostat functions as an on/off switch (even with variable speed furnaces/air handlers, they only increase their output because they notice that they've been running awhile and decide they should try harder). Your house won't get warmer or cooler faster by setting the target temperature to 90 degrees or 60 degrees than it would if you just set it to the temperature you want it to be.
VITOed · 2 points · Posted at 18:56:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Mostly all white people NOT are racist. Most of us / families came here to the US in the early 1900s, never owned slaves, we fraught in WW2 against the Nazis and denounce the KKK.
The direction toilet paper should be placed on the holder.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:01:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That when choosing a hidden ball from underneath three cups if the guy shows you one empty cup and offers you the chance to switch you should ALWAYS say yes.
That being an artist (art, writer, etc.) is an "easy" or "cushy" major/work field.
You're very much at the mercy of your audience and if you freelance, you're at the mercy of people who think "writing/art is easy; I just can't be bothered to do it". $25 to proofread a novel is severely underpaying someone for work that is just as mentally taxing as doing math or any other "more difficult" field.
This probably falls under the category of doing someone else's job but I feel that it's insidious because it basically devalues entire groups of people- especially college kids, who are already at increased risk for depression/suicide/developing health issues.
How to adjust your freaking mirrors! hint: if you can see the side of your car when sitting upright and centered in your seat then your mirrors are not adjusted properly. you wouldn't have those giant blind spots if you pushed your mirrors out more.
fskoti · 2 points · Posted at 19:06:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That someone disagreeing with your personal views on politics and/or religion doesn't mean that the are wrong, or evil, and that you and that person can still be friends.
If you are at work, you are there to work. Sick and tired of going somewhere and receiving shitty service, especially when you can see the employee standing around while you've been waiting on a water refill for 20 minutes.
I work in the service industry, I understand if you're busy, or on break, or the food isn't ready yet, but being blatantly lazy is ridiculous.
Freedom of speech. All it means is the government can't interfere with you. Private citizens are free to do as they want. If you're blocked on a site your rights aren't being violated
Correcting someone else's typo/grammar in a discussion/debate does not make your side any more right nor does it make you smarter than the other
DAG00N · 2 points · Posted at 19:10:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
how water actually gets to people's house (sink, shower, toliet) and how much work is put into it. I've worked in the water industry for 5 years and the amount of people who have said "water comes from the sky, it should be free." still baffles me.
The scientific method or how ppl come to a scientific consensus. If enough work us done independently that is in agreement or if studies are independently reproduced multiple times only then can it start to be considered legit. 1 or 2 studies isn't enough to show anything. As well as correlations don't prove anything. In that topic we essentially can't prove anything but only come to agreement that something is probably this or that. Understanding scientific processes allow the mind to see how life and many of its issues are extremely complicated and there are no simple answers. This is especially true for politics. If ppl disagree hotly it's usually because it's complicated and nobody has the correct answer because a correct answer might not exist. If we assume there is a simple answer we most certainly don't understand the issue.
But that's because that Constitution operates in the domain of the Government. If an organization infringes upon my free speech rights, its not illegal under the constitution, but my rights have still been infringed. My rights are inalienable.
That losing weight isn't something you just do over a few months and never think about again. It's a lifestyle change that you have to stick with for the rest of your life.
That it's ok for people not to be equal at everything. Why can't we just celebrate our differences? Men have a biological advantage for physical labor. Women live longer. African people are biologically better at resisting the sun and long distance running.
Most people would love to jump down my throat and roast me for those statements, but they're all literally a biological fact. I don't understand why it has to be controversial.
That no matter how alien or ugly someone's beliefs may seem to you, they are a three dimensional human being who has a story and a reason why they act the way they do and say the things they say. There are no cartoon character villains in real life.
Let people off the train/elevator/subway BEFORE you get on. It will be faster and there will be more room, and you won't be a jerk shoving past people trying to get off the damn train.
Foe117 · 2 points · Posted at 19:19:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Money DOES by happiness when you're barely scraping by with no financial safety net.
A_Ron24 · 2 points · Posted at 19:24:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sometimes your best isn't good enough and that you aren't destined for great things.
Sometimes you are destined to live a mediocre life and that's ok.
barryfc · 2 points · Posted at 19:24:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That humans won't evolve to lose our pinkies or grow larger brains. The number of people who misunderstand evolution is astounding. In order for a species to evolve like that, there has to be an advantage that enables certain members of that species to reproduce more effectively that members without that advantage.
This is a gradual process, and humans won't evolve away body parts simply because we don't use them.
An elected official being Impeached does not mean they were removed from office. Being Impeached means they have decided to have an official hearing related to the alleged wrongdoing of the elected official. You can be Impeached and even found guilty and still not removed from office.
Just because someone says something with confidence that does not mean it is actually true. In fact, people who are more informed usually make it clear that their knowledge is incomplete.
yktoday · 2 points · Posted at 19:29:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Chinese writing
azglr96 · 2 points · Posted at 19:29:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That in order to have your right to protest for your ideals (non violently) same goes for a person with the exact opposite of your ideals (non violently) no matter how disgusting their ideals maybe. As soon as you silence the one you silence the other.
Freedom of Speech in the United States only means that the government can't prosecute you for saying something, not that other people can't tell you you're an ass for saying it. Nor is anyone required to give you a platform to say whatever you want. So unless the government is prosecuting you for saying something, your free speech isn't being violated.
jdquinn · 2 points · Posted at 19:30:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That people have different values and opinions; not only is that okay, but it's necessary for a healthy society. Especially politics these days. I'm not stupid, dumb or uneducated on the matter because I don't agree with you. It amazes me how many people think the "other side" is clueless about the issue.not only is it normal, it's perfectly acceptable that others handle the issue differently than I would. Social services are very important and good to some people. Social services are enabling laziness in others' opinions. Both are valid viewpoints. Society works because we're different.
Don't get me wrong, if you believe in something, fight for it. But understand that the people on the other side of the battlefield are just as passionate, understanding and convinced as you are. They're not wrong, just like you're not wrong.
The Federal Reserve has no affiliation with the federal government. It is a privately owned business, that creates and inflates the US currency. This allows them to create artificial scarcity which in tern allows them to control markets and people that rely on that currency. This system is a form of financial slavery.
Respect. Too many times I hear someone say "they disrespected me", when what they really mean is "I stuck my nose somewhere it didn't belong and got told off".
But if you're trying to lose weight, that fact isn't exceptionally useful. Sort of like if you were looking at buying a car and wanted to know the relative cost of gasoline. Imagine if someone said, the more gas you put in the farther you can drive.
I hear people complaining that if they start making more money, they will be taxed more and actually being home less. This is NOT true. Ever.
The only amount of money that is taxed higher is the amount that is above that tax bracket's threshold.
For example. Let's say (to make it simple) your tax bracket is 10% if you make less than $100, and 20% if you make $100-$200. So, now let's say you make $120. You do not have to pay 20% on all $120. The only amount you have to pay 20% on the $20 that went over the $100. You still pay only 10% on the full $100.
Naavi · 1 points · Posted at 19:33:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
OH! This is great to know actually! This applies in Canada too?
When someone posts an argument or correction on the internet they very likely aren't anywhere near as emotionally invested as people will imagine. A lot of the times it's not someone frothing in rage typing out responses but someone just as bored as you are who has nothing better to do than type response.
JoeBrly · 2 points · Posted at 19:33:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you want to describe some who doesn't like to socialise, the word is unsociable (or asocial if you want.)
It is Not anti-social. That means anti-establishment
People have different opinions. The only difference is that many of them forget that you are improved by being challenged, being in an echo chamber doesn't change anything.
That you don't need to immediately merge in the event of a lane closure or if you're entering the highway. Wait until the lane you're in is ending to merge. There are multiple lanes for a reason - use them.
People always look visibly upset with me when I switch lanes to enter the lane with less cars in it, and I fly by them on my way to the merge point and merge in front of all of the waiting cars, but that's literally how you're supposed to handle a closed lane. Why leave an entire lane empty while a long line of cars waiting in a single lane? It seems so simple to me but apparently not to many of the drivers, at least in my state.
Your server or the person behind a counter is a human being. Mistakes happen and can usually be corrected easily. you can't expect every person on the clock to be a perfect robot, so as the customer, just be patient and treat them with dignity
A two or three percent raise isn't a raise if the cost of living has gone up two or three percent. You're making the same amount of money in real dollars and buying power.
No raise doesn't mean you're making the same, but actually you're effectively taking a pay cut.
Bumka · 2 points · Posted at 19:44:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Freedom of speech does not mean free from consequences.
Getting into an elevator before letting all the other people out (really applies to any situation where you're going from an open to an enclosed space witch scarce room).
"Another dimension" Most people think it's a separate 3-dimensional space. No, that would be a parallel universe. An extra dimension is an extra aspect to reality; a further way of specifying its exactness.
If you're driving in the left lane, you should be able to tell me which car you're currently passing.
Pluto_P · 2 points · Posted at 19:47:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Google.
The results are personalized. So if you tell someone to just Google it, they won't get the same results as you. This doesn't affect simple things, but for more controversial/political issues this might have a large impact.
Also, Google doesn't make content, you do. So if you take the time to explain something on the internet, you contribute to the things Google can search.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:47:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The person who says 'yes' to extra work in an office and doing things that are not their job are generally more valuable and more likely to be retained, given raises and promoted.
When it comes to letting people go, that raise you fought for may well work very strongly against you. At the very least you will be top of mind if not the top of the list when they sort through their people to make the choice.
Chopping list sorting, your boss may prioritize differently. Highest paid person in each category will go first:
Anyone currently on a performance improvement plan.
Anyone who has been on a PIP in the last year.
People perceived as having a bad attitude. Complainers and criticizers first. "Not my job" guy next, all drawn from the bottom half of the performers.
Now you get rid of any remaining low performers.
Then you go back to the next tier of performers and get rid of the negative people... etc. You stop when you hit budget or headcount or both.
every single person you meet can teach you something. I spent 6 years teaching toddlers how to swim and I learned so much from them. I would say the most surprising one was when I told a kid we wouldn't have a lesson because I would be in Argentina. He listed off a number of cities and asked which I was going to. Once he heard Buenos Aires, he suggested I check out the traditional South American cattle ranching culture, take an hour long ferry across the bay (he knew by name) to the neighboring countries capital (which he also knew by name), or see a number of monuments and landmarks most of which he knew by name.
Apparently this kid was in the national geography bee and also gave me some factoids about various different islands and bodies of water.
Skkorm · 2 points · Posted at 19:48:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How the pop music industry works. The stuff on the radio is not the best or the worst. It's the stuff deemed the safest, the stuff that fits with current stylistic trends.
Edit: spelling
nwbell · 2 points · Posted at 19:48:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You have to be on the point to contest in Overwatch.
Working in IT does not mean you can magically fix every problem with every technology that has ever been created or thought of by mankind. IT like most fields is specialized and people are skilled in the specific area in which they are educated or trained. Not to say someone cannot be trained in more than one area but usually you are not going to find someone who is a DBA, a net admin, a vb programmer, a web designer, and a fiber technician.
Does this go along with taking all the antibiotics prescribed, even if you feel better?
RNA2015 · 1 points · Posted at 22:07:19 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Antibiotics are a rough topic! I'm a believer that antibiotics are thrown out far to liberally. Medically as long as the Dr is a good one and not a prescription whore then I feel like he prescribed something for a reason.
Personally I am a massage therapist and I have people come to me to helpnwoth chronic pain. They come for 3 months then feel better and stop coming. The reason you're feeling better is because you are getting a treatment. Chronic pain is chronic lol it doesn't go away. But it can be treated.
When you are in traffic that you are a part of said traffic and if you just try to get yourself through it as fast as possible you are slowing everything down behind you
How to park a car without taking up 2 spots. Not sure if it's because incosiderate, lazy, or oblivious. Nothing more irratating than coming home looking for street parking and seeing a curb that can easily fit 5 cars only have 3 because of incorrect spacing.
Orbo1 · 2 points · Posted at 19:53:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That counseling isn't just for unbalanced, sick, or "crazy" people. It can be cathartic and it's a great setting to open up and share. I'm glad I took advantage of it during college, considering it was free.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:53:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
OCD(Obsessive-compulsive disorder).
OCD is an anxiety disorder that is quite uncommon and unpleasant to have; like having a bad filter where thoughts and sensations get stuck in a loop instead of flushing away, and irritate you until you try to flood your sensory system with rituals and repetition, until it pushes the initial thought away, and lets your mind resume flow as usual.
OCPD(Obsessive-compulsive personality disorder) is to do with obsession with order and planning. Not an anxiety disorder; people who have it generally see nothing wrong with it. Far more common than OCD.
I don't drink diet coke because I'm on a diet. I drink it because I don't need 20 oz of sugar water in my bloodstream every day but I also like the bubbles and the taste of soda. That's why ordering it alongside a cheeseburger isn't some mind-stretching contradiction.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:56:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Supply/demand. Perfect example is minimum wage in my eyes. In theory yes, minimum wage needs to be increased, however what people don't realize is that with minimum wage increased, people will increase prices on goods and necessities. In a perfect world, wage goes up and people can buy more. In actuality wage goes up and now apartments cost more because of people were paying it before, they can pay the adjusted price. It's shitty, but it brings us back to square one, where wage isn't the true issue. Cost is the issue. We need to regulate pricing on goods and services, but that's a slippery slope too. Where is the line drawn? Why is someone allowed to tell you that you aren't allowed to sell your product for what you want. Competition is fantastic in preventing this, but too many industries monopolize prices instead of compete for business.
Trump is against illegal immigration not foreigners.
btao · 2 points · Posted at 19:59:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There has never, ever, been a single provable example of god, any god, in any point in history. Why are people deathly afraid of the unknown that comes with the reality that we are all here for no purpose at all, and we are what we make of it all?
Having an open mind. Providing accurate sources for an argument. Getting over your ego and understanding that we're all in this together, trying to achieve roughly the same standard of comfort and living so when I have my blinker on and I'm trying to get over, just fucking let me get over ya cunts.
Propaganda is all around you in various forms and you likely have been indoctrinated on purpose or accident from something. Something you are 100% sure of is likely wrong. Keep open minds to other people's positions to be as self aware as possible.
It grants everybody the freedom to be whatever religion they want to be, but that freedom abruptly and legally ends when you try to enforce your religious beliefs on another person's religious beliefs.
EVEN IF one of your beliefs is to kill those of other beliefs. Sorry, your own religion now impedes on another, and therefore illegal.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 20:09:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Evolution. Only about 1/3 of people in the US believe in evolution. About 2/3 say they do, but half have caveats, eg it doesn't apply to humans, or that God is controlling it like a puppet master (which completely undermines Darwin's insight).
Even of the people who say they believe in evolution, I suspect most of them really would have a hard time stating what it means; most have a cartoon understanding of it. "Scientists say that men evolved from monkeys" is probably all they could say (incorrectly).
Considering that the idea is so powerful and has such tremendous real world implications, it is a shame it isn't better understood.
God is controlling it like a puppet master (which completely undermines Darwin's insight).
Does it really, though? I view God as a divine watchmaker. He set the system up, made up the rules, and set it in motion. I think He only occasionally intervenes, in those cases where doing so is necessary to keep the whole thing ticking. Apart from that, he just lets the system run.
Hell, even Albert Einstein was quoted as saying he was interested in science because he "wants to know how God did it."
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 23:16:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
even Albert Einstein was quoted as saying he was interested in science because he "wants to know how God did it."
He was being metaphorical. Einstein was not a religious man.
Getting back to the main point, Darwin's insight was that natural processes would guide the evolution of a population without any intelligence or interference. To say evolution is directed by nudges from God (the most intelligent of intelligences) pretty much abandons that idea.
As I said, I think He created the system. That means the beliefs are not necessarily antithetical.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 03:25:09 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm not trying to "win" an argument here, I honestly try to understand how you conclude that. Yes, you said God created the system, but then you said He intervenes occasionally.
Either you believe that natural processes are sufficient to explain evolution, or you think that God has to nudge it along. I don't understand how you don't see that dichotomy.
I was talking more about those times when things happen just right to keep the world from blowing up. Like when the Soviets installed a missile detection computer that went off in error and recommended a counterattack against the US. The guy in charge was a fill in, and he refused to issue the order on the screen, preventing a nuclear holocaust.
Things like that.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 20:09:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
People are different. Just because you don't agree with my thoughts or actions doesn't make them wrong thoughts or actions. I don't think that farts are vulgar, there is no such thing as a bad word, if your offended, it's because your stupid.
Madllib · 1 points · Posted at 20:17:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My friend is a strong advocate for it. I'm one of the people who have read a few articles and that's it. I believe it's up to $4000 for one bitcoin now.
I guess one of my many questions is; if it really is the currency of the future, how do people move to it if it's already at $4000 a coin? Do people invest in portions of coins?
ljp3 · 2 points · Posted at 20:12:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You do not need to have an opinion on everything (politics), sometimes it is ok to just not care.
That 99% of sexual sadists only want to play with sexual masochists. Being a sexual sadist does NOT mean a rapist, psychopath, or abuser.
Seriously, any kinky person worth the title is more aware and careful of consent issues than the average non-kinky person. We don't want to drag non-kinky people in. That's wrong. We want to play with people who want the same things as we want.
People who try to "convince" unwilling people into kink, people who tell people how to be kinky "correctly" (aside from consent rules), and people who are unwilling to talk to you about your sexual preferences and make compromises are not Dom/mes. Those are abusers.
And Christian fucking Gray was a stalking, abusive asshole who tricked a vanilla person into a contract, stalked her, and ignored safewords. That's not a Dom, that's an abuser.
Pushing a button, for instance at a crosswalk or in an elevator, multiple times in rapid succession does not decrease the amount of time you're going to wait.
I'm not trying to indoctrinate y'all, but most people need to know the definition:
"Worker's control of the means of production and distribution of goods based on need [rather than profit]"
Therefore, Venezuela is not socialist because it's economy is ~70% private.
Also, there is nowhere in that definition that states that the state takes your shit and/or kill people. That may have happened in the USSR, but the "no true socialism fallacy doesn't apply" . If we're looking only at ownership of the means of production, saying that Stalinism is inevitable under socialism is as logical as saying that the only form of capitalism is fascism.
Again, not trying to convert people , or even debate them, I'm just tryna help people save time so they know what they are debating about.
Working in IT at a college I can't tell you how many people come in complaining about how their mac is slow to find out it has literal thousands of viruses
That fighting hate with hate only creates more hate. It's only when people receive love and compassion from those they least expect it that true change tends to occur and the flame of hatred can be extinguished
The idea that you shouldn't have to suffer simply because you were born into a life you never asked for.
Every time anyone talks about welfare, even from the people who are fine with it, there's this attitude that you have to "earn" your right to live.
Ironically this comes most fervently from people who claim to be pro-life, but even liberals can't seem to have a conversation about the notion of giving homeless people a home or giving starving people food to live on for free, even though we totally have the means to do so.
I've always had the idea that welfare was to help people get on their feet, and such programs should support people while encouraging them to improve, whether it's through job training or civil volunteer work.
And that's the precise mentality I'm complaining about. It's also how welfare is used, for the most part (though 30% of welfare recipients get stuck on it by the paradox of the system), but the simple reality is it shouldn't just be a social safety net for those who want to succeed in a capitalist system.
None of us asked to be born, and more and more we're approaching a society that doesn't need nor does it want people to fill jobs. This will throw into sharp relief how damaging the philosophy of "I need to work to live" is, in a society full of billions of people who never asked to live in the first place.
"You should be a little more grateful! Look what I do for you! [insert basic survival stuff you can't even do when you're 7]"
Uhh, ok, you brought me into this horrible world, which I didn't ask you to do, and you have the minimum decency not to let me die. Thanks...I guess? :/
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 14:14:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Looking at Reddit the front page of Reddit today, that Socialism and Fascism go hand in hand. You have socialists posting pictures of Neo-Nazi groups saying that they're un-American because they're Nazis ... while completely missing that Nazi was shorthand slang for Nationilist Socialism. Or Antifa posting pictures of US military landings in WWII (Italy, specifically), claiming that those soldiers were the "original" Anti-fascist movement and implying that Antifa is the "modern version" when Antifa is recognized as one of the most fascist movements in the US, and has seen members applauding speech excerpts from Adolf Hitler because they contain many of the same goal points as Antifa's charter.
Turns out, you can be left or right and still be freaking fascist! Too many people don't know their history, don't see the parallels, and aren't therefore capable of looking in the mirror and seeing what they're becoming and what they represent. They simply think "Well, I'm on this side, and what we're doing must be right!" When really, what the outside is watching develop between these small groups is a bit like the Nationalistic Socialist party duking it out with the Soviet Socialist party members.
The State shall effectively guarantee the genuine democratic rights and freedoms as well as the material and cultural well-being of all its citizens.
In the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea the rights and freedoms of citizens shall be amplified with the consolidation and development of the socialist system." https://www.kfausa.org/chapter-v-fundamental-rights-and-duties-of-citizens/
That's from the latest constitution. Here's a video of local elections taking place. https://youtu.be/o7k9egJ04hk
Like I said, it's a bad comparison because the DPRK is a democracy.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 19:35:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What the fuck kind of smoke are you cracking to think that North Korea is anything but a dictatorship?
Their local elections have one choice available. They can't vote for anybody else but the assigned candidate. It's a ceremony.
kfausa.org is a North Korean propoganda website.
It's interesting that we are talking about a political group calling themselves something they aren't, and how they do that to mislead, and this person cites NKs propaganda websites to prove that they are what they claim.
The kfa isn't owned nor operated by the DPRK. It was founded in 2000 as an organization to find the truth about the DPRK, as opposed to the outlandish lies told by westerners. If you want the DPRK propaganda site, that's http://rodong.rep.kp/en
The DPRK recognizes the organization, and gives them the go ahead to rehost information and etc. It's not funded or operated by them.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:13:42 on August 18, 2017 · (Permalink)
NK News describes KFA as "one of the DPRK's primary tools of soft power within its global propaganda network".
David Scofield called members of KFA "useful idiots", described the organization as follows:
The group's activities include "information" seminars where the enlightened benevolence of Kim's rule is championed, all part of its "alternative" view of the North. The ragged wretched displays of poverty and starvation are edited out and the voice of North Koreans not in the direct employ of Kim Jong-il are conspicuously absent. In place of uncomfortable reality, the KFA offers vacation photos of "their" North Korea taken during recent, state-supported visits, complete with bowling, golf, amusement parks and Karaoke with young female party members. Members write glowing pieces, oblations celebrating Kim Jong-il's wise rule. No starving people, torture, summary execution, penury or despair in the Korean Friendship Association's North Korea. Just golf, great meals and evenings in the company of Kim Jong-il's beauties.[10]
A 2015 investigation by NK News found the commercial practices and integrity of the KFA to be in question.[11]
According to Hazel Smith of Cranfield University, KFA associations have lost much of their original role as part of an international socialist movement. Today, they are reduced to serving domestic purposes of North Korea.[8]
Look, I'm not having this conversation. You're clearly either a conspiracy theorist or some deluded "anti-imperialist" communist if you're going to ignore the mountains of evidence that it is anything but a totalitarian dictatorship.
NK news isn't an authority on the DPRK, they're not an official DPRK news outlet, nor do they have direct contact with the DPRK government. The NK news organization does almost nothing but rehost American news anyways. Why would you trust them as a source?
Clearly you just have no idea what you're talking about, and when your world view is challenged you just run away like the liberal coward you are.
National elections have one choice, a confirmation vote. The locals have multiple candidates to represent their autonomous regions. Did you even read the constitution I linked? It's pretty straight forward.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 07:52:30 on August 18, 2017 · (Permalink)
Step 1. Local elections. Any person can run on any party ticket they choose with multiple candidates running for different parties. Each local is an autonomous region meaning that they have to be from that local area, and have ties with the community.
Step 2. Local delegates go to the capitol to discuss legislation, and every few years a handful of candidates is presented for various positions including prime minister (currently held by Pak Pong-Ju, despite what Google's propaganda says when you search for it.) And supreme leader of the military, held by Kim Jong-Un, and other important positions. The local delegates debate on who will best fulfil their duties.
Step 3. A vote is held within the united front to determine the best candidate each party believes will be the best.
Step 4. The results are presented to the public in the form of a confirmation vote. Voting for the candidate confirms the vote if a majority agrees. Voting against or offering an alternative can lead to an overturn of the decision of the parties.
Wouldn't it be great if America had confirmation votes? For positions like house leader, Senate majority leader, supreme Court judge military generals and etc. Instead of just having them be assigned with no public input? How is a confirmation vote worse than the non-democratic system in America?
They are effectively a monarchy, the state has only allowed 3 rulers from one family over the history of DPRK. That is in no way a democracy. Elections are irrelevant if they don't allow peaceful political change.
It's a perfect example of a name not meaning shit.
Oh no, people vote for people they like and think will do a good job, not like any other country has had multiple family members, or served for their whole lives. What do you mean peaceful political change? There are multiple parties in the DPRK, you do know that, right?
You do realize that whatever North Korea claims isn't really relevant here. The point is they call themselves these things to be misleading, they are going to keep the ruse up on their websites and such. The Nazis claimed at face value to be socialist for most of their existence. If YouTube and the internet existed then they'd have videos of their "open elections" and a website espousing their socialist views. Just like those ones North Korea made that you linked.
North Korean "elections" are pre-decided ceremonies held for propaganda posters. The idea that North Korea has wanted one of three members of a dynasty in order for every election since the 1950s is laughable.
What the DPRK says here is very relevant. But the KFA isn't run by the DPRK anyways, it's an independent organization. Nazis were called out constantly by Socialist states like China and the old Soviet Union for being fascists, and not Socialist like they claim. The DPRK doesn't experience this, except by Western liberals who don't know the difference anyways. The Nazis literally did have fake proof of their sham elections, which again, socialist nations called out. On the other hand, the DPRK's elections are held to be legitimate by China, Cuba, Vietnam, Laos, Venezuela, and a whole host of other states.
What's so ridiculous about a people electing the same person for multiple terms, especially if they're good at their job. It's not like the US has kept the same senator in office since 1959 or something. The US has also never elected the son of a previous president, wouldn't imagine it.
Who other than North Korea and this fringe organization likely funded by them agrees that North Korea is a democracy? By "Western liberals" you mean most of the world? I don't think Japan or South Korea believe they are a democracy, both are non-western with democratic elections. They also allow more than one party to win, unlike North Korea.
I feel like you have no idea what you're talking about. There are 3 major parties in the DPRK, the worker's party (most popular), the Korean social Democratic party, and the Chondoist Chongu party. There are other minor parties like the women's socialist union. You're going to use the DPRK's old colonial ruler and a US military dictatorship as your benchmarks of democracy? Definitely a big negative on that one.
All three parties have belonged to this super party since 1946, which is lead by the workers party, which holds 607/687 seats in their legislature. You have to be a member of one of these three to be on a ballot. Since the main party controls the super party, you have to effectively have their permission to run for one of the other two parties. That's not democracy. Those parties are not independent of the main one.
Since you are such an expert, what is their smallest percentage of seats held by the workers party since 1946?
Have you never heard of united fronts or something? It's not just a "big super party ruled by the largest party." A united front means multiple parties that have a common goal, I think in the US you call it "bipartisan voting." But that's still a democracy, right?
I don't know when their smallest percentage was, but I can guess it was in the 90s sometime.
They control ballot access how? Do you know how the local elections are run, and how each autonomous region votes for its own local delegates, which can volunteer for any party? Just because all the parties unite behind the cause of removing the southern US colonial government, doesn't mean they are all 3 run by the WPK. They just all want the US out, on other political lines they disagree pretty heavily, and it shows if you watch or read any of the minutes from their congresses.
The main party has always held a huge majority, the other two have always existed for show. In a true democracy, with freedom of speech and open elections, that is all but impossible. The combined likelihood that they are that good at ruling that the North Koreans have never wanted another party in power and basically the whole world is lying about North Koreas political system is so small I don't know how to represent it.
What does "in show" mean here? Are the third parties in the US "in show?" Because they never win?
Freedom of speech is a ludicrous ideal that can't exist anyways. Are you free to coerce under duress? Are you free to threaten with intent? There are a ton of "speech" that's not free.
What does "in show" mean? If you meant for show, I meant that they will never win and are just there to create the perception of a multi-party system. There is no organization controlling and limiting the third parties in the US, people choose not to vote for them. There is that super party in North Korea. The two main parties do offer different options in the US, and we change parties regularly. The Communist USA party is extremely unpopular because people here don't like their ideas. They are still allowed to campaign. What parties advocate any form of capitalism in North Korea?
Yeah, I just looked at their elections. You vote for the super party, so there is only one fucking choice on the ballot. This is the most ridiculous argument I've had, the whole time, they have one choice on the ballot, the seats are apportioned by the super party. So the election doesn't have any bearing on their actual representation. This is absurd, I'm done. North Korea is not a democracy.
Edit: also the capitalist party you referenced was taken over by the communists by the 1948 elections. They are puppets for display.
I already told you that the national vote is a confirmation vote. The real voting takes place in local people's assemblies, and local people's committees where members of any party are allowed to run, and be made into delegates in the supreme people's assembly. Just because it's not identical to the backwards undemocratic system of the electoral college, doesn't mean it's not democracy.
Sometimes things can have misleading names. A peanut isnt a nut, a bearcat is neither a cat or a bear, and National Socialist Party = Fascism which is on the opposite side of the political spectrum as Socialism.
missing that Nazi was shorthand slang for Nationalist Socialist
Firstly, it's National Socialist. And second, do you sincerely believe the Nazis were socialists? Do you know anything about the Second World War? Or politics in general?
Btw can I have the name of the school you went to? Providing you actually attended one, of course. I'd like to write a letter of complaint.
Do you know anything about the Second World War? Or politics in general?
More than you, apparently. Dozens of books, including Churchill's own memoirs of the war and the lead-in to it. College courses on WWII. And crud, I've even spoken with people who were there, Germans and Americans both who remember the war and that era.
If you don't think that the Nazi party was socialist, you're smoking revisionist crack.
Btw can I have the name of the school you went to? Providing you actually attended one, of course. I'd like to write a letter of complaint.
Given your level of historical understanding displayed in this post, I think writing something that involved critical thought may be a little beyond you, given you seem to have based your understanding of one of the most influential events of the last century completely off of internet memes and revisionism.
Do yourself a favor. Stop pretending you know history because you read a tumblr post about how Nazi's weren't really socialist and that's just some alr-right conspiracy, like chemicals making frogs gay, and go pick up a history textbook about the conditions that led to the rise of the Nazi party.
The Nazi party gained so much traction because it was a palatable alternative to real socialism, which many in Germany feared would be inevitable.
The common workers no longer had any faith in the destitute Weimar Republic, and seeing the successful rise of Bolshevism in Russia, opponents of socialism worried that the same would happen in Germany. National Socialism differed from Bolshevism substantially, making it a substantially improved prospect for conservatives.
Their version of socialism did not have as its primary purpose the well-being of the worker but rather the harnessing of the worker's energies in the service of the German state/German volksgemeneischaft. "German" or nationalist socialism would concomitantly balance the working class's interest with that of the ruling class, especially the factory owner and entrepreneur.
In this sense, Nazism was a type of socialism, but in name only; he sought to appeal to both the left and the right by making a party that was theoretically socialist, but in practice was only tangential to real socialism.
Clearly the appeal of Nazism was not that it was truly "socialist" in the sense that we now understand that term, or even that anyone mistakenly believed it to be so, but rather that it offered the nervous middle of society a cure to the disease of socialism.
Inside the Nazi party, the left branch leaned toward legitimate socialism, but Hitler himself did not support these ideas and upon gaining control, he essentially severed that branch of the party.
Hitler had always distanced himself publicly from this class warfare wing of his party. In retrospect, it is clear he was slowly rooting these elements out while trying to extract as much effort from them as possible. First, in 1926, he suppressed a revolt of the left-wing Nazis led by Otto Strasser, winning over the support of former Strasser-follower Joseph Goebbels in the process. Then, little more than a year after the 1933 seizure of power, he murdered the radical SA leader Ernst Rohm and dismantled the SA, whose fanatic members had been so instrumental in his rise to power.
After that, the "socialism" of "National Socialism" was little more than a label.
Hitler's suppression of the Stennes Revolt, and later the murder of Ernst Rohm in the Night of the Long Knives, are two demonstrations of his efforts to depose the supporters of socialism from within his own party. By the mid-1930's, Hitler no longer needed to continue with the facade of socialism, as he had gained enough political control and public support to forgo the attempts to appeal to win over the working class with socialist policies.
6and7 · 5 points · Posted at 19:29:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Have you read about the "Night of the Long Knives"?
The Nazi party did have a lot of socialist founders, but then the party turned on them and purged the party before WWII. Hitler was definitely not a socialist and at the end of the day, he ended up defining the party's principles.
You're literally the most ignorant person in this conversation.
"Our adopted term 'Socialist' has nothing to do with Marxian Socialism. Marxism is anti-property; true [Nazi] Socialism is not."
"The great masses of workmen want nothing else than bread and amusement; they have no understanding of idealism; and we can never count on being able to gain any considerable support among them. What we want is a picked number from the new ruling class, who – unlike you – are not troubled with humanitarian feelings, but who are convinced that they have the right to rule as being a superior race, and who will secure and maintain their rule ruthlessly over the broad masses.”
Adolf Hitler
At least try to learn something about politics.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 19:50:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't think trusting Hitler's words is a good path. The man was known to tell a lie or two when convenient.
Instead, look at the NSDAP's 25 point program. IIRC, about two or three points could be considered "right wing" (things like emphasis on national borders and restricting immigration) and something like 10 to 15 could be considered "left wing" (things like trust busting, state seizure of capital, employment quotas, punitive taxation on financial institutions, etc). The rest is stuff that is not especially related to modern politics. (Mostly dealing with the unfair terms set during the Treaty of ParisVersailles. (Had a brain fart)
It's sophomoric to divide everything into two tribes of thought. The Nazis were Left when they were left, they were Right wing when they were right wing. They were neither when they were neither. (Left/Right is a terrible way to express political ideology anyway)
My point exactly. Hitler lied, there was massive privatization under Nazi control. The only capital seizure was from Jews and other discriminated people's, not Capitalists in general, as a socialist state would.
Socialism is inherently incompatible with Capitalism by it's very nature, so your last sentence doesn't even make sense. You sound like some horse shoe peddling ignorant liberal.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 21:16:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think you need to sanitize your data inputs.
[deleted] · -1 points · Posted at 19:33:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The Nazi's jailed and killed socialists and communists for their political opinions. You are delusional or entirely mistaken. Just because their name has the word socialist in it doesn't mean they were.
Tell me, who owned the means of production under Hitler?
Wow where's that daily thread on most cringeworthy insults when you need it
warpg8 · 1 points · Posted at 20:37:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No, you cannot be a left fascist. That's not how the political spectrum works, and your idiotic comment is bereft of any working knowledge of politics, history, or even a basic understanding of what socialism or fascism means.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:39:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Those Nazis are indisputably considered right-wing (as seen by their votes, representatives, beliefs, and friends), your point doesn't make sense. How can you honestly claim the right-wing protest is also a left-wing protest?
Can the left be racist? Well, Left and right wing is not a very good way to compare these political intricacies. Communism is tied into fascism, it can be considered to be on the far left as well (if left-right was only defined by community versus personal ownership). But the idea of a militant authoritarian government (fascist) is much more inline with right-wing politics, despite claiming to want smaller government it votes and promotes contrarian ideals.
Yes, anybody can be violent. Yes, anybody can even be racist. Yes, anybody can be crazy. The difference is, they would hopefully be a fringe on the left, while this right-wing nationalist nazi protest is openly supporting fascism, racism, and other horrendous ideals, and they are getting an awful lot of support from the right.
Fascism is a form of radical authoritarian nationalism, characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, and control of industry and commerce.
Those nazi's who run around with the words fascists painted on them are right-wing nationalists.
I said IF the left-right wing is only considered public vs private ownership, I said that because I was pointing out that it isn't just about ownership, the old nazis probably weren't left-wing by modern american standards.
The right-wing want change as well, they definitely push policies and ideals that don't pre-exist, but they are certainly known for sticking with an antiquated set of beliefs.
It is marketing. The theory of capitalism relies upon informed consumers spending their money to get the most value for it. The point of marketing is to prevent that.
As my wife put it, "you know you've made it when you can buy/do whatever you want whenever you want." in other words if you can't buy that thing you want on a whim without having to consider how you're going to pay for it, you haven't made it in life.
Any look at the federal budget will tell you I'm right. The Federal Government pays for stuff with a mix of tax revenue and selling bonds to investors. Nowhere in there is the government writing checks to the Federal Reserve.
[deleted] · 4 points · Posted at 15:19:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
bigursa · 1 points · Posted at 15:48:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But if the US government was to invest that money in the economy, and economic growth were to occur, would the increase in the tax base offset some of the payment? Would the resultant economic growth not be worth the token given to the Federal Reserve, who is essentially a government regulatory body free from the influence of untrained politicians with, potentially, ideological or short-sighted agendas regarding the performance of the economy?
Why make one point, but not the other? Why examine, and subsequently criticize, one step of a multi-step process?
So, how am I mistaken? The Federal reserve is privately owned, but derives its authority from Congress, is accountable to Congress, and is headed by presidential appointees who are approved by the Senate. It is certainly a Federal institution.
Banks have reserve requirements which are set by the Federal Reserve. Those reserves are held by the Federal Reserve. Excess reserves are also held by the Federal reserve.
So in what way is it neither Federal nor a reserve?
What is there to believe? These are the cold hard facts. There is nothing to believe or not believe. Unless you have some source that shows how it isn't these things, then you're just full of hot air.
That all religions are false, heaven and hell do not exist, we don't need religion to have morals and values, and the world would be a much safer and overall better place without religion
"That which is states without proof can be dismissed without proof".
Religion made - and is still making - the world a better place. Idk where you're from, but I'm from the Middle East and I've seen people give so much when they have so little to help each other. Islam has brought quite a bit if stability to my home country when it came, and even now Islamic societies are helping to make Bahrain a better place and loads of the money they get is donated to help fight Isis. Very few terror acts were done by Muslims. I presume you're from a country where religion isn't that prevalent, but for me where it's part of the culture, I see the good it's done, and I see the bad. The good far, far outweighs the bad.
Even if God doesn't exist, religion brought us together and helped us.
The link you shared only applies to the US. On a global scale, the numbers don't express the same sentiment. Saying that, I definitely don't feel that Islam is the only religion, or ideology in general for that matter, that consequently produces violent actors who carry out terrible acts out of propagation of their beliefs and principles.
Before i digress any further, I can certainly recognize undeniable universally good and moral, truly humanitarian deeds have been performed through religious people, most often out of a motivation to actualize the fundamentals of their beliefs and teachings. So, in the sense of the benefit to humanity brought about by specific acts done through the name of a religion (i.e. feeding the hungry, sheltering the homeless, etc.), good is, at times, a product of religion, albeit, strictly in the sense of utilitarianism.
Religion, in my experience and from my analysis of it, causes many more issues than one generally recognizes. That is especially true relative to the fundamentals of the Abrahamic religions. Misogyny, slavery, intolerance, and discrimination, to name a few, are concepts rejected on a world scale that are, at the very least, condoned by these theologies. In some instances, these ideals aren't only condoned, but are promoted, even integrated into the framework of the government. The result then is institutionalized hate. As a result, cultures then develope norms that are repulsive to those not subscribed to the dogmas.
The most detrimental effect, above all, that religion has on civilization and the flourishing of humanity as a whole is the indoctrination of the concept of faith. As in, belief without evidence, as well as the denial of scientific evidence due to its contradiction to sacred literature. In the western world, most of the laws and practices mandated by scripture are no longer viewed as reasonable or legitimate, mainly due to legislation passed, but more so because of a change in culture and perspective.
The fundamentals of religion are harmful to humanity and promote an ideology that will be the downfall of civilization if people refuse to genuinely invest in a strictly secular moral code and governing/judicial system based on science and logical reasoning. There is nothing wrong with anyone believing whatever they want to believe and practice, just as long as they don't try to enforce their beliefs and practices on those who prescribe to the contrary.
Do you believe that the laws defined in scriptures should be the guiding ruling force of governments? Because, from what i have seen, most people think that the laws of their particular religion should be the laws of their country, and that's the issue that I really have with religion. When one religion feels it's beliefs should be the ruling force of all people. That, of course, has been an age old problem. Having been the route of practically all of history's most terrible, bloodiest, and inhumane events.
Hundreds of years ago, that may have been the case, where slavery and discrimination is applauded, but now it's not really applauded because of religion. Homosexual discrimination, for example, is a gigantic issue, mostly because of religion. Discrimination against homosexuals is wrong, regardless of which age, but religions don't really condone it anymore, they outright reject it(the church). Even in Islam, there's a debate about homosexuality, should the gays be killed? Should they be allowed to be normal citizens? The good thing about Islam is that you can find the leader whom you support and agree with, there are thousands of leaders and one of them is surely the guy for you.
The belief in something without proof is ok as long as it's not insane. A lot of Muslims and Christians I know believe in evolution, and other things that contridicts the holy books.
The fundamentals of Islam, for example, is really just to accept that God exists, and do XYZ in his name. XYZ being praying and fasting, and if you have the money, hajj(pilgrimage) and giving to those in need. This is the backbone of Islam. This is what every Muslim is required to do/believe. The Quran actually promotes challanging everything, and asking for proof. I can't remember the exact verse but it basically said, "Believe your brothers, however insure that what they say is truth".
Hell no. The laws of Islam or Christianity or Judaism should never be used in court. I think that our law should be fair to use on anyone, Muslim Hindu or atheist. Sharia law says that we should cut off the fingertips of a theif if he's caught. It's an old and outdated practice which many people(me included), find disgusting.
As the rider of the red horse, I have to say I approve of the ballsy move, as someone who actually knows the meaning of the word, I have to say, that what you just discribed is technically a religion.
Only in an anomalous sense of the word, in the same sense that democracy is technically a religion. Ideology would seem more fitting. Yet, even then still, it's not even an ideology, but more of an introduction or intellectual invitation to an ideology.
nanmart · 2 points · Posted at 17:23:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The two party political system in America is an illusion. There is zero difference between a Yankee's fan, a Patriot's fan, a democrat or a republican. The Us vs Them mentality is everywhere. Coke vs Pepsi, etc. etc. etc.
It's all just to divide and conquer. The 1% control everything and sports/government/media/celebs are meant to keep the 99% preoccupied so we don't revolt.
War and or disease are nesscary to control our population to an extent. Without either the human world population would grow beyond Earth's resources at a quicker pace than we can accommodate for.
Irelgbt · 1 points · Posted at 17:48:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted] · 4 points · Posted at 18:04:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Being a decent person, being kind to others and not being so self centered.
Everyone I talk to has absolutly no interest in anything unless it pertains to themselves.
That this "rape culture" stuff is bullshit, guys are against it obviously. But sick to death of being punch bags for every wrong thing that happens to a woman.
Also, a guy found not guilty isn't due to a broken justice system, or mans world. Lot of times they're exactly that, not guilty smh
Your job as a parent isn't to raise a child; it's to raise a contributing, self-sufficient adult.
If your non-disabled kid is 18 and doesn't know how to do their own laundry and dishes, how to read a lease, how to check their credit score, how to get a job, how to cook, how to manage time and money, how to avoid pregnancy, or how to open a bank account, you've done a shit job as a parent.
Most Americans know very little about Robert E. Lee and they feel so strongly in their ignorance. Both sides of the political spectrum apparently care very little about history and would rather use him as an icon to further their political agendas, whatever they may be.
(for US people specifically) "Freedom of Speech" does not mean "I can say whatever I want, wherever and whenever I want, without any repercussions of any kind".
The government can't criminalize your speech, but certain types of speech can make you liable for civil penalties and also be reprisals from your employer, private organizations and individuals, etc.
That the middle class is not getting poorer because poorer people are on government assistance. A skewed taxation system created by the rich for the rich is vastly more responsible.
lateu69 · 3 points · Posted at 19:54:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Depression isn't just clinical, it is often situational too, speaking from experience. I basically cured my clinical depression, but I still have situational depression from what's going on in my life.
You're absolutely correct tho, a lot of people have situational depression (that may or may not be easy to fix) and their doctor prescribes them antidepressants that don't do shit because their brain chemistry is just fine.
It can be hard to do it, but sometimes forcing yourself to fix your life is the only cure you need.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 21:04:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Negatively summarizing an entire race of people the way you and the majority of Reddit has been only shows your bigotry and ignorance. Your sort of hate isn't welcome in the modern world
You realize you where the first one to bring race in to this discussion, right? The only thing I negatively summarized was you
Edit: I love when I come back through my post history and see guys like you have edited or deleted your comments
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:02:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Alright, I'll bite: What's the inevitable downside to socialism?
[deleted] · 5 points · Posted at 19:18:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:31:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Your going to have to do a much better job of not only showing how socialism causes these things, but how it will inevitably cause these things. 99% of socialists would say that capitalism is the source of scarcity, authoritarianism, corruption, etc.
Hell, I'll start. Capitalism is not interested in producing goods and services that people can use, but goods and services that would make money for the producer. This creates huge scarcity problems for populations that don't have the money and resources to buy anything. An example would be Flint where a population can't afford clean water and now they don't have clean water. But what, aren't they able to vote in politicians who can fix this? Well, they could in theory, but in practice, you need money to run a campaign. Instead, politicians are bought out by wealthy interests who want to protect their profits. Politicians are now corrupted and willing to tear away environmental and human health protections to protect corporations. This is hardly democratic as the top 0.01% are effectively buying political power and forcing their policy on the rest of us. What is called when 0.01% are in control due to antidemocratic practices? Authoritarianism.
Are you kidding me? Capitalism is a system based on distributing goods for profit and nothing else. For capitalism, the need of a person is irrelevant if they cannot pay. That is why capitalism leads to starvation, death from poor water and death from lack of medicine.
Both are frameworks to achieve goals, not goals themselves. Neither system is inherently foolproof.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 19:26:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:33:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I looked at Venezuela and I don't see a country where the labor force is in control of the economic or political organs of their country. I see a despot that rules with an iron fist. Someone who uses socialist words but doesn't follow through with what they actually mean. They may have had socialist roots and intentions, but their goverment is no where near that now.
I also don't see how socialism will inevitably lead to Venezuela and not, say, Sweden.
Not arguing for or against socialism here, just pointing out that all of those countries are smaller populations, generally one religion and one ethnicity.
Ok but i don't really see why that matters. I mean, no matter what system is implemented (capitalism, socialism, communism) it's gonna be easier in a smaller coubtry. Doesn't mean socialism wouldn't work in a larger country.
Yeah that wasn't my intention. I feel lucky to live here even with it's flaws. Just trying to point out that "look at Venezuela" is a piss poor argument against socialism.
I live by this Rule and yet the majority of time the only benefit it has been is for people to jump into it and bumper to bumper the guy in front of me cutting the Gap back to half a car length again.
Don't these people have any idea about stopping distance?
World peace will never be a thing. Differing cultures, ideologies, religions, lifestyles, socioeconomic class levels...etc., will never allow for it to happen.
Neither will solving world hunger. If I my guns are bigger than your guns, I am taking your food and everything else that I want.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 21:02:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
+sociophats...
Tooluka · 3 points · Posted at 19:02:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There is no god or similar entities.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:57:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Tooluka · 1 points · Posted at 04:53:06 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
And this exactly why there is definitely no god. 2000 year old people, who created mountains of humanmade stuff, and they somehow stumbled on the true idea about our universe, all without any equipment? No, obviously the idea of god that can't be disproven by any means, even two millennia later, is a fake philosophical construct designed by priests to create doubt.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 10:58:46 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Tooluka · 1 points · Posted at 11:34:02 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Absence of belief is not a belief. The fact that I don't believe in pink-green zebras doesn't mean that I believe in yellow-blue zebras or pink-green elephants. And very very hypothetically pink-green zebras can exist, even today probably (artificially made) but that insanely ultra low probability only tells me that people who seriously believe in pink-green zebras are seriously misguided and whole idea from the start was human made idea, invented for nefarious purposes. Statistically and rationally speaking.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 13:09:58 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Tooluka · 1 points · Posted at 13:25:39 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well, god-construct is obliviously unverifiable, by definition from "the book". So if we will isolate this entity you will be correct. But as we can see god-construct has megatons of other stuff mixed additionally and that is obviously human artifacts. Therefore it is rational to conclude that a) god-construct is also human-made philosophical entity and b) it was specifically created by human as unverifiable by definition to facilitate pointless paradox discussions, such as this one.
A belief is a conviction that cannot be supported, proven, or verified by fact.
If you think it is true - isn't god is stupid idea then? If not - why?
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 13:48:31 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Tooluka · 1 points · Posted at 15:18:01 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, it is going nowhere. Thanks for the discussion ;)
"A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent. One who engages in this fallacy is said to be "attacking a straw man".
I didn't argue with you. You talked like a certain type of person so i assumed you are one. That's all i said
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 15:10:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
...That expecting relative directions for an entire trip from somebody like they were reading off your GPS to you is even more of a dick move.
Mapmakers amd Navigators have been using the cardinal directions since forever for a good reason, you do realize that right?
elljawa · 2 points · Posted at 17:59:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
it makes sense in instances where one could logically know what direction they are heading in, such as a highway or other type of road that marks the directions.
If im trying to find a friend on the street, on one that does not run perfectly north/south or east/west, and they say "oh im in the northwest corner", there is a 50% chance I dont have anything to orient myself by for that.
You can't tell direction from the position of the sun? Seriously?
That is like one of the most basic astronomical facts that we ever learn: Sun comes up in the east and goes down in the west. If you can even slightly estimate the time, you know where east and west are, and if you know that, then everything else is easy.
Seriously, you look at your watch: Oh it's 3pm, sun should be in the west.
Look up.
Oh there it is
And most roads are oriented on the cardinal directions.
Bingo bongo you have your cardinal direction orientation in less than 2 seconds.
Of course it only works if you know which way is North etc. If you know each direction then it would be almost impossible to get lost versus taking the wrong left turn. That's what I mean.
Of course these day with smartphones, it is much harder to get completely lost, I think.
[deleted] · 5 points · Posted at 18:26:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Or they expect you to have a grasp of cardinal directions like any reasonable person. If you're confused, ask them if you're going North to clarify your direction. Educate yourself and stop blaming people who try and help you. You have a fucking phone with a compass on it and google maps. Who gets lost these days anyway... you sound like an idiot.
When I do this , it's because I've already typed out and deleted a message four times, because I couldn't express what I wanted to convey in a coherent manner via text.
kcjg8 · 1 points · Posted at 16:53:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yea, I normally word it that way though. Op most likely meant people just texting "call me"
clem82 · -1 points · Posted at 15:28:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That is what a call is for. If it's inconvenient then they won't answer...and they'll call back once it is lol
If someone phones me, I assume it's urgent, so I have to answer. If it isn't urgent, why wouldn't they text me? If you want to talk, but it isn't urgent, you text them and tell them to call when convenient.
clem82 · -2 points · Posted at 18:10:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
IDK how did we ever get by in the 90s. Oh yeah, we let it ring if we are busy and then we respond later.
That was before the primary means of non-urgent communication was text message, back then it was the phone call. It isn't now. Texting is much more convenient in so many more situations that actually phoning someone is now rare and relegated to rarer situations. Talking in the phone disrupts what you are doing, stops you if you're using two hands, disrupts everyone around you, and removes a lot of the privacy from your conversation, since everyone can hear your half of it.
clem82 · -2 points · Posted at 18:25:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
completely disagree
evn0 · 1 points · Posted at 22:31:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Completely disagree with a list of things that accurately apply to a phone call? You can't have an opinion on whether or not people can hear you if you talk in public, silly :P
clem82 · 1 points · Posted at 02:03:57 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
You're completely out of context. so No
evn0 · 0 points · Posted at 02:17:44 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Nah I read the whole thread. Just saying that it's kind of impossible to disagree with at least 3 of the things they said with a stock phone (taking up two hands, lack of privacy, and disrupting others nearby) because they're facts. I could give a shit if you prefer one over the other.
clem82 · 1 points · Posted at 04:11:51 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I am not entitled enough to stop what I am doing to pick up the phone, and it's actually a single hand not 2
Lack of privacy, no one is sayin anything where everyone can hear when it isn't on speakerphone so no disagree again
disrupting others, get the fuck over it. If it's disruptive then just don't answer. simple as that
Eh, sometimes I don't know why someone called and seeing a quick text like "need to talk about groceries, call after work" or something like that, it's easier and less distracting than listening to a voicemail.
I actually like this.
I know it's a modern smartphone generation thing that people make jokes of, but to be honest it shows some respect that I might be busy doing something or working thus being heavily interrupted if someone calls me.
That's at least how I perceive it
clem82 · 1 points · Posted at 16:47:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
if you are busy how are you interrupted? It goes to voicemail. Win.
I am only 28, but just call me don't text me and tell me to call you. Just call
Explain the point of voicemail then if you are just going to text?
It's way more convenient for me to just take a Glympse at my screen instead of actually raising my phone to my ear (privacy / appearing professional) , be it for a voice mail or to actually call someone. If it's urgent, I'll call back right away, if the SO just wants to talk about their day, it can wait...
clem82 · 1 points · Posted at 18:09:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If it's not urgent isn't that the case of when a phone call doesn't have to happen and it can be a text?
That's how I handle it yes, but some people just call to chat.
Spazmer · 1 points · Posted at 17:09:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I would say go the other way, don't call me when you can send a text.
clem82 · 1 points · Posted at 18:11:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Agree with this. Nothing is worse than the "nothing call" but if you say "call me" then you have something you need to talk about so you can call..if it's an emergency you can send more in a text than "call me". If you say "call me" it's not important and it's something you want to know.
-Tom- · 1 points · Posted at 17:30:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I have friends who wouldn't answer a cold phone call even if you called them 3 times in a row (indication it might be urgent or an emergency) they will however return a call me text with a call....maybe if you weren't so shitty at phones I wouldn't get so angry at this. If I'm calling you it's because it's important...if i just wanna BS about something I will text it.
People who identify as other than male or female are probably failing in highschool science. They don't correctly understand DNA and chromosomes.
People who disagree with the above information.
Knowledge IS NOT wisdom
[deleted] · 4 points · Posted at 14:18:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Our entire existence is premeditated on social constructions. All expectations of yourself and others have been created by other fallible beings. Just because things are the way they are doesn't mean they should be.
Existential thinking or what my cousin calls "going meta". Happens when you see things for what they are. Life is harder when you don't follow the script though.
[deleted] · 4 points · Posted at 16:57:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If 62 million people vote for an idiot, that idiot will become president. You can complain about the failures of other parties or the media or whomever -- and I'm not saying that entirely without merit BUT the actual blame for who is elected lies mostly on the shoulders of the people who were eligible to vote and either picked wrong or didn't show.
For parents, it's kids. If I may quote a Poet laureate and an actual prince,
"You know parents are the same
No matter time nor place
They don't understand that us kids
Are going to make some mistakes
So to you, all the kids all across the land
There's no need to argue
Parents just don't understand"
For the love of everything, if you have a 60lb bag of dog food, don't load it in the conveyor built you asshat. Load it into your cart with the barcode facing up and I can scan it with my rootie tootie point and shootie laser gun. Jackweed.
That the house won't get hotter any quicker if you turn the thermostat way up. If you set the temperature to 21 degrees, then it will heat up to 21, then turn off. If you are comfortable at 21 degrees, then set the dial to 21 degrees.
If you turn it to 25 degrees, it will not reach 21 any quicker. It will just carry on going past 21 degrees, until everyone in the house is too hot.
That historical events often still have present day material effects. Like colonialism, slavery, segregation, etc. Just because these things are in a history book, laws were past, and "it happened a long time ago", doesn't mean all the problems these regimes resulted in are rectified. E.g. The current racial segregation of US cities such as Detroit is the result of historical forced segregation, racial violence, and economic factors which can be mapped back toward the times of slavery.
Edit: To down-voters, it may feel comfortable ignoring history and living in a bubble grounded by a false neutrality, but peoples' material circumstances resulting from history are the case whether you acknowledge them or not.
Pretty much. WWI made the US come out of its shell a bit and actually help the allied forces. WWII made the US a global power, and they still are. You can connect the dots and see why X happens. The war between Saudi and Yemen is (partially) explained that Saudi hates Yemen because they supported saddam's invasion of Kuwait. Random stuff like this all comes together and we can understand why XYZ happens. We know the nationalism is always a terrible, terrible thing. A national started WWI(Gavrillo princip) and nationalism made one of the worst, vile group raise to power and start another global war(WWII).
Other people doing well en mass benefits everyone.
We're having a serious debate in Ontario right now over minimum wage. It's currently less than $12/hr and that's roughly a single dollar higher than it was in the 70s (adjusted for inflation). Meanwhile, cost of living has increased dramatically. In January of 2019 it will top out at $15/hr, which is a reasonable amount of money to expect to earn (~$30,000/yr).
I'm not debating this with anyone - minimum wage jobs are jobs, period. Thousands of people in my province are in minimum wage jobs, not just high school kids, and they deserve to earn a fair wage for their work. Minimum wage has never meant minimum exhaustion, minimum stress, minimum effort, or minimum work experience. Those people work as hard or harder than most and there's no excuse for paying them shit money.
With that said, our economy is predicted to see an uptick as a result of the increase, which means more money for everyone complaining about having to pay more to their employees. They just don't see it yet.
Perhaps another way of saying it: the mistakes of our government should not fall on the least of us to bear.
That drinking water is good for you. Were made up of 80% of that shit. No wonder you have a headache after drinking a 64oz coke and that large coffee you had this morning.
Antifa are not the same as Nazis and it's a false equivalency literally being pushed by the Nazis to get mainstream support on the basis of liberal values. Fight terrorism, fight the Nazi scum.
What goes down in the US goes down in all capitalist western states, they all follow the same model of "politics as show" where the public has no input if you look at the research.
If you are in the left lanes and people are passing you on the right you. are. driving. badly. You are the problem. Not the "speeders".
Similarly, when you are on the on-ramp you should be accelerating to the speed of other drivers so that when you merge you are doing so at highway speeds.
Mental Illness. There's a stigma too, especially for guys, but even the best intentioned comments seem to lack understanding. Hell, Even I don't completely understand it and it's been nearly a decade.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 15:26:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
if you spin your tires fast on ice they will loose traction
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 15:29:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Statistics. Everyone I know just quotes them incorrectly, or doesn't know how to compare statistics or even apply them correctly.
Such as dying to vending machines vs dying to shark attack. It doesn't mean vending machines are more dangerous, it's a simple case that more people interact with them than people interact with sharks. The only way to do it is compare to the lowest value, I.e. 10% of the population put themselves in a situation where they can get attacked by sharks. If you assume 100% of people interact with vending machines then whatever value you get for people dying to vending machines has yo be divided by 10 in order to have a closer comparison of the danger between sharks and vending machines.
It's constantly on Facebook with people sharing racism or sexism factoids based on incorrectly applied statistics
Your actions DO have any impact on other people... The things you say and do have an effect on the people who see and hear them. It's your choice whether that effect will be positive or negative, and just because you're anonymous doesn't make this less true or the other anonymous people less worthy of your consideration.
cowkong · 1 points · Posted at 15:32:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I work at Walgreens for minimum wage with no training required for the job. I don't know every about every product, which one is the best, and I definitely can't recommend any medical advice. I don't know why people think I've tried and tested every single product we have.
ksozay · 1 points · Posted at 15:34:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That some things are earned and some are freely given. Learn not to confuse the two:
Respect, Trust, Reputation, etc. - things you earn. Though you may demand or expect that they should be given. Some may choose to, some may not. But ultimately your actions decide.
Love, Friendship, Kindness, etc. - are things you are given. Though you may demand or expect that they should be earned. Some may try and guilt you, some may reject you. But these are things that are freely given and received, it is up to you, to care for them.
Most people don't SEEM to understand that you can control the way you feel about something. If you change the way you look at something, or change your level of attachment to it, you can change the way you feel.
The most time-tested answer comes from Buddhism. Lessening your attachment to something lessens the suffering. However, cognitive behavior therapy has been around forever, and one if it's cornerstones is cognitive reframing Change the way you look at something, and you change the way you feel about it. We can all do this if we choose to, it's just that so few people actually choose to. They just walk around as emotional victims trying to change the world instead of realizing it's far more simple (and possible) to change one's self.
That's a very interesting frame of mind. Do you mean to say that you should walk around trying to not be attached to things? With a sortof indifference. Or is it more that, for example, once a negative thing happens, you shouldnt care too much as its already out of your control. Sorry if I`m misinterpretting.
It's really in all how you choose to go about it. A Buddhist would say that all attachment and desire will eventually lead to suffering. They will say that becoming detached from things (caring, but not overly so) will cause you to suffer. A cognitive behaviorist will tell you that once an event happens, you should look at how you are looking at it. If it's something you can't do anything about, then why are you letting yourself suffer? If it's something that is neither your fault nor your responsibility (the two things ARE different) then why are you letting your emotions get the better of you.
If you feel like it, head down and find a book called "the subtle art of not giving a fuck" It's a short(ish) read that is actually pretty entertaining. It kinda combines both of these topics. The author states that you have to CHOOSE what you care about. The problem is, we tend to care about things we can't control and don't matter instead of the important things.
That's not completely correct. There are times that a website can hang and clicking refresh can in fact make it load 'faster' than if you didn't hit refresh.
A large number of their opinions and beliefs are objectively wrong. This goes for everyone, but people act as if they are right about absolutely everything.
I began to consider a couple of the things this individual did, that made me feel so great and open to talk with him. In regular Buffer blog way, I thought of discovering some genuine science to move down a portion of the basic propensities this recently discovered companion had so imbued when conversing with me.
Bitcoin is not completely untraceable. It not being backed by any government, physical object, or corporation is more feature than bug. It is not perfect, it was started as an experiment and whoa boy have we learned a lot from this experiment. Nobody has any idea whether or not it's a good time to invest, even though it really shouldn't be about investing. But it's always a good time to learn.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 15:49:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
History - taking a few courses in college and high school doesn't make you an expert. I mean can I say that I'm a scientist because I took zoology, evolutionary sciences and psychology in college? History seems to be one of the only subjects that people argue that they an expert on, but they don't have a degree in it or even studied it. Just because you watch the history show and watch a few documentaries doesn't make you a historian!
ridge91 · 1 points · Posted at 15:51:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
some forests are run like companies so that we get wood. A part of it is being cut every now and then and it get's replanted. It's not a bad thing to cut down a part of a forest. Let's enjoy the fact we can enter them for free.
That 90% of the people will be proven wrong many times throughout their lives. We don't know everything, and never will. Always live like a student with an open mind. Let yourself be challenged always
You don't know what you don't know, and you probably haven't thought of all the possibilities. I just feel like most people are so willing to rule out possibilities.
You think black flags are bullshit? The US has planned them. Check out operation northwoods. Got all the way to the joint chiefs of staff before being shot down, involved killing quite a number of Americans to kick start the war with Russia.
We thought the folks that said the government was watching us needed tin foil hats, then along came Snowden.
If any paper were to come out against climate change, it would be ridiculed and considered not only false but dangerous, regardless of any review.
We are not gods. We are men. We are fallible, we make mistakes. And there are myriads of possibilities we don't consider because they're just too outlandish for our minds to conceive of.
That to improve you have to actually recognize your own mistakes, so that you can learn from them and do better the next time. You get nothing from shutting down and blaming other people other than a false sense of self-satisfaction. I'm looking at you r/leagueoflegends :P
Traffic works best as a team sport. Aggressive/selfish driving causes people to have to brake at unexpected times which causes more slowdowns and increases everyone's exchange time.
Just because it's reported on a lot doesn't mean that it happens a lot. Sometimes it means the opposite, because it's the unusual, uncommon events that people like to talk about.
etds3 · 1 points · Posted at 16:24:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Maybe not 90%, but you would be ASTOUNDED by the number of people who think my boy-girl twins are identical. "No, they aren't identical. They have st least one MAJOR difference."
Honestly speaking, poverty cannot be eradicated. We live in a capitalist society that thrives upon profit. As long as things are like this, somebody has to be poor in order to fill the factories, refineries, mines and farms. They need to be poor for us to be able to afford the things we have now.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 17:49:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm under no illusions that socialism will rise again and again. The thing is that I do not think that it will ever work because humans will always want more, this undermines the goal of bringing everyone to an equal playing field. Our innate greed will work against a socialist society in the long run.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:13:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Getting angry fixes very few problems. Just take a step back and a deep breath and ask yourself if yelling is really going to make anything better.
Once you've started yelling about something, it's really difficult to change your mind and see the other person's perspective without looking like a dick.
That the the intense personal chemistry and the "it's like I've known him/her all my life" feeling of instant familiarity/comfort is not a magical sign that this person is one of your "meant to be" mates. It's a combination of factors all about triggering familiarity built from past experiences.
I will give an example using myself, but I knew about this before this all happened. My husband and I grew up all our lives on opposite sides of the planet in cultures that are very different. However, we were both raised by mothers who came from immigrant families from the same part of Eastern Europe. Combine this with the fact that we met when we were both in a third, completely different, part of the world for our postdocs and were feeling a bit like fish out of water. Meeting each other, we suddenly felt familiar and comfortable because of how having this similar element to our upbringing formed our personalities and world views. Combine with this the fact that he bore a superficial but significant enough resemblance to Superman as he was portrayed by a young Christopher Reeve, my first crazy crush as little girl and, wham, insane chemistry.
There is nothing magical about this kind experience, and it's often why people repeat the same type of bad relationship over and over (repetition compulsion), or jump in too fast with people who end up being abusive.
You can disagree with someone without them being the reincarnation of Hitler who wants to murder everyone, or a communist monster who wants to usher in the new Soviet Union. People have differing opinions, and it's okay. Instead of vilifying them, try to understand where they're coming from and understand their point of view, even if you disagree with it.
You don't have to agree with someone to hear them out, or be friends with them.
Don't know about 90% but certainly applies to a lot of people: personal space. You don't need to be touching me to talk to me, leave me be. I understand a small tap to get my attention but beyond that....
Also please respect the fact that not everyone enjoys hugs, I can say hello and goodbye etc perfectly well from over here.
kppanic · 1 points · Posted at 16:38:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That an ionic metal in solution from a salt is way different than the elemental state of said metal. This is literally where the anti-vaccine fanatics get part of their ammunition from.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 16:40:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Disagreements are not usually caused by one side being ignorant or ill-intended. We often assume the evil or ignorance of others because it's convenient to write off dissent as invalid. It is also possible for opposing sides to both be right- too often politics becomes an exercise in denying the downsides of a position rather than arguing that the good outweighed the bad.
The inept, incompetent, self serving United States Congress and i belong to that 90%. And so it goes.
I3uddy · 1 points · Posted at 16:42:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The weather report. Now, I may be part of the 90% but from what I've heard from people in the industry is that when the weatherman says there is a 50% chance of rain that doesn't mean that its actually 50% chance you will get rain. It means that 50% of the coverage area will 100% get rain. In other words it will definitely rain in 50% of the coverage area. If I am wrong or misunderstanding please inform me.
Sooooooo many people, from poor to rich, argue/compare the nominal value of fx rates against each other. It gives me brain cancer. Especially common when travelling.
‚thailand is sooooo cheap, i get 35 baht per dollar!!!!‘
Might even be more than 90%.. but I never hear about people reassessing their perspective, attitudes and general relationship with the idea of death. You can spend your lifetime investing positive thoughts towards it so that by the time it comes around it can be imbued with such wonder, such intrigue and such enchantment that it can much more easily embraced.
jamaall · 1 points · Posted at 16:44:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The weather. Generally the only people who have some understanding of it are natural science majors and hobbiests. I hear complaints all the time about how meteorologists got the weather wrong. But they are giving predictions based on the data they have. If the data is wrong, then they will be wrong. If people want these predictions to improve, then support science and NOAA instead of allowing funding cuts. The US GFS is straggling behind the European ECMWF and this will continue to be the case until we can fund improvements.
It isn't so much that data is wrong, rather the data changed between the time they made the prediction and the time the weather was predicted for.
e.g. They say tomorrow we are going to get 2 inches of rain, except there is a 3 degree shift in the direction of the wind, those clouds are now not going to go over your area. Voila, no rain.
BIDMAS - order of operations in calculations. All those goddam people trying to correct others on those Facebook posts when actually both of them are wrong and the answer is blindingly obvious to anyone who can follow basic rules you learnt when you were 10.
kchuen · 1 points · Posted at 16:46:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Astrological signs, religions, Feng Shui, etc are just made up bullshit tailored to the dumb side of us.
General safety rules. Unless you work in the field, people get mad at why there are so many rules to follow. Sorry if the elevator isn't working today, they're inspecting it so you don't die
that "you're wrong" is not enough to persuade people into stopping what they are doing/thinking.
Saying "you're wrong" is just basically just saying what the issue is and not why it is an issue, they need to know why it is an issue if you wan't to even attempt to persuade them to stop.
It might be true, but that doesn't actually make pitbulls more dangerous OR likely to be dangerous. It's just that when a pitbull attacks , it will be more likely to kill NOT more likely to attack.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 16:52:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Being firm and direct does sometimes help you get somewhere when dealing with frustrating sales people/companies/whatever, being rude does not. And even if it does in the short term, you're the real loser in the long term (and probably short term).
I don't just say that because of things like "karma", but blood pressure, overall happiness (when you are rude or mean to people, you are in turn effected by that, even if you don't realize it, for the rest of the day or even a couple days in a negative way), etc. It's also a great way to make sure you can't really go to a company/restaurant/whatever again, unless you enjoy the feeling or people hating you and probably spitting in your food.
TL DR; Be firm if you need to, but don't be a dick because you're only hurting yourself.
I assume you mean driving slower than everyone else, because then you're right. The closer to the same speed everyone goes, the fewer accidents. But if you meant absolute speed, then everyone going slower would be safer.
Law Enforcement (at least in the US). I work for a midsize city in a low income high crime area. I am the first to admit that we have bad apples and there are so many things that we can improve on. I think this goes for any profession, but when I am really bothered when I see somebody commenting on subjects and the only experience and education they have is from television with the movies.
I constantly reach out to local media, critics, neighborhood and Community leaders and invite them to do right along's with me. My city is busy enough that I can usually get them involved in some critical incident or use of force (witness, not actually involved ) and can explain why we do what we do. I try to educate them on use of force practices, why we do not use warning shots, shooting to injure, or why a taser is or isn't sometimes the best option. I've been doing this for years and it has been wildly successful. I have not had a single person who has approached the issue open minded and or with some degree of reasonableness not become a supporter of local law-enforcement. Our job is so much better and for filling when we have community support. Luckily for me, despite the area I work and we have very good community support. But it comes and goes. We lost it due to an unfortunate incident several years ago but have since recovered and I can't have good relations with the public. I think if more people actually investigated and gave the time to truly understand some of the issues, it would be a much better situation.
Wear your seatbelt.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 16:57:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That religion is a mental illness/detriment to our society
7rieuth · 1 points · Posted at 16:57:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I work at a Chinese fast food restaurant. We packaged our individual combos in brown paper lunch bags. The combos come in those standard hinged styrofoam containers.
Now I shit you not, when I hand them the bag horizontally, for whatever reason, only god knows why, they always grab the end of the bag and hold it vertically, which causes the contents of the styrofoam container to spill out.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 16:58:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Given the recent "what works well in theory but not practice" thread, leftist ideology. Think what you want about leftist ideology and how well it works in practice, that can be debated. You should, however, understand it first.
Edit: a good litmus test- do the workers control the means of production in this country? If no, then it is not communist in any sense of the word (oh hur hur "one more try"™ sure is an argument) despite what the crazy authoritarian leader calls it
Common courtesy when driving on the interstate. If you're outside of the city, the left lane is for passing. Don't drive in that lane, and for the love of god, don't be in that lane driving the same speed as the right lane. If you're in the city, the right hand lane is for merging. Don't drive in that lane unless you are merging onto or exiting the interstate. There's a reason there is 3+ lanes there.
I live in Canada and in fact, Our PM is closer to a dictator than the US president , much closer. Up here, if you were to vote against your party in a bill/legislation you probably won't even be allowed to run for that party next time and more likely than not you will be removed from the party right away and must sit as an independent basically meaning you will little to no power to help your constituents.
That's like congressional party lines here where your party won't help you run if you don't vote with them. But yea, a PM is more more powerful, but can be removed more easily if I'm not mistaken.
In theory yes, in reality though I am not so sure.
djp1968 · 1 points · Posted at 17:01:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Freedom of speech means the government won't arrest you for saying (most) things. It doesn't mean you can say whatever you want and everyone needs to accept it without any repercussions or ramifications.
pounces · 1 points · Posted at 17:02:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The verb "to lie" as in "lie down" is conjugated the same ways as "to lie" as in make a false statement. Most people I know incorrectly use the verb "to lay" (which should be used with an object) when they mean "to lie down".
Incorrect: I was laying on the beach.
Correct: I was lying on the beach.
Correct: I laid the baby down in the crib.
Correct: I laid myself down on the bed. (myself is the object)
Correct: The hen laid an egg and lied down on top of it.
Or just the general mechanisms of quantum mechanics.
bse50 · 1 points · Posted at 17:03:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
True despair.
Xalteox · 1 points · Posted at 17:05:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Radiation. Most have no idea how it works, why it is dangerous, instead it has become one of society’s biggest boogeymen and people cower in fear when hearing the word.
The men or women who want to date/marry their version of a "10". So, like, super hot, wealthy, successful volunteer wrapped in money and dipped in gold. What people dont get is that usually people like that at least go with someone on their level to some extent. What do you bring to the table?
emjobo · 1 points · Posted at 17:05:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to talk to one another. It is possible to have open and honest communication without taking it personally, getting defensive, or turning it into a fight. My healthiest friendships are those in which we can mutually call each other out our each other's BS and give good, honest advice, even when we know it might not be something the other wants to hear.
ghostar · 1 points · Posted at 17:06:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is true, however getting a raise of 0% means you REALLY didn't get a raise.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 17:14:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
2% is an increase when compared to no increase, instead of losing the value of money by 3% you only lost value by 1%. That's because your pay increased.
Similarly, if yesterday your stocks were 10% down from when purchased and today are only down 5% they increased in value, but still a lose.
Detoxing.... Yeaa....no... Your nasty-ass fruit-vege-shit-fuck juice isnt detoxing your body. You have a liver and kidneys to do that. Though, some of these juices can be good for you in terms of nutrients and such, it does nothing to detox your body.
People aren't jerks, or other people's perspectives I guess.
I used to think people were just jerks. Turns out they have their own lives and have a shit time with things just like me, and assuming they are being jerks is being blind to an entire other life.
And if they are jerks maybe they had a rough childhood, and have unresolved issues. Or maybe I'm reading it wrong, maybe it's a cultural or even age difference.
Generally, I believe people are good people that come across as jerks.
Americans - Now this is probably not 90% and if I am wrong on this one, and people actually understand it, please correct me.
As a Swede, it always weirded me out how few people actually understand the first amendment to the constitution of the US. Every time someone get fired or called out for saying something stupid/racist, I always see people scream bloody murder about their first amendment rights have been violated, not understanding that it protects you from the government (i.e. they cant tell jail you for saying stupid shit) but that there is no such thing as right to consequence free speech.
And again, this is just the observation I've seen. If I am wrong, and most Americans truly understand this one, please correct me. It just seems to me like one of those fundamental things you should know/understand considering the potential consequences if you dont and run your mouth where you shouldnt.
pbj986 · 1 points · Posted at 17:15:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Nope, you're exactly right. Most people here don't seem to understand it.
So many people are controlled 100% by what others think of them. I see it every day at work and at school/ They get frustrated and angry when things don't go well for their ego, if it has zero effect on their self betterment. I've seen people spiral into destruction because they were too stubborn to admit they were wrong.
Income inequality is not the real problem. The real problem would be when the bottom 10% has nothing to lose and ready to go to jail for free food and shelter.
dogzday · 1 points · Posted at 17:15:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"Natural" means comprised somewhat of ingredients found in nature; "Organic" means something was grown without certain chemical pesticides, hormones, or stabilizers (and generally from a facility that contributes to the general well-being of the planet).
That this country has a history, like it or not. Removing flags, changing names of things and removing statues doesn't take away that history. Better yet why don't they just erect informational signs explaining the fallacies of our past and let it be. The city of Portland, Oregon just changed the name of some schools that had the word Lynch in them, thier reasoning was so that children wouldn't feel oppressed by the word. Oh even though these names had been around for at least 50 years. Oh the poor souls that had to live through the history of those years. Give me a break. Our history isn't going to be changed by hiding it.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:15:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In Ontario, Canada, people can't seem to understand that their G2 drivers license is not plural. "Yeah man I just got my G2's"
Capitalism. I'm not going to say it's good or bad, but a lot of economic problems that people complain about have very little to do with capitalism, and more to do with government intervention.
In my opinion, your opinion is the reality or truth in your opinion that is for me is just another opinion.
DanialE · 1 points · Posted at 17:16:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Advising people based on hindsight is retarded as fuck and also annoying.
You didnt know what was gonna happen. He didnt know what was gonna happen. Youre no einstein for saying the obvious. You merely saw something while the other person gets to experience that thing first hand. Who do you think has a better idea wtf is going on?
General Theory of Relativity, Special Theory of Relativity, dark matter, worm holes, the null hypothesis, each other, the legal system of U.S., the U.S. Constitution, why battleships float, how airplanes fly, the internal combustion engine, why the Greatest Generation went to fight and die for an idea, post traumatic stress disorder, how to raise really smart, healthy, and good children. My God! I could go on like this all day. I think the better question is to find something that 90% of people actually understand. Good luck with that list.
"My aunt smoked all her life, and she never got cancer."
Oh, good for her. Now, tell that to my Aunt Claire, who is dying of lung cancer from secondhand smoke right now, jackrabbit.
"Vaccines cause autism. There's this one study!"
One study. By a doctor who had his license pulled by a board of fellow doctors. And Jenny McCarthy. One study. Yet you'll let your kids go to school unvaccinated with contagious diseases easily prevented by vaccines for life that can blind or otherwise maim and kill other kids who can't be vaccinated due to health reason that rely on other kids that can for herd immunity.
The harm of letting your kid go around--who has no capacity to make a vaccination decision for him or herself due to parental control--as a walking bioweapon around other kids should be fuckin' criminal.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:18:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That just because I am a software support consultant does not mean you are not an idiot. I can troubleshoot software not human stupidity. I understand how the software functions not how your everyday job functions around it.
TURN ON YOUR FUCKING HEADLIGHTS IN INCLEMENT WEATHER.
Seriously. I just don't understand why this isn't properly enforced by highway patrol.
I used to be a delivery driver and the truck I drove had very bad blind spots. Luckily my dad always told me to look as many times as you want until you feel comfortable before going.
Years ago, one late fall day, around 7am, in MN, the weather was quite gray outside and steadily raining. I am waiting at a red light about to turn right, waiting for the light to turn green (no turn on red sign posted). Light turns green, I look to the left, look to the right, look back to the left, looks real clear so I proceed to take my right turn. Well it wasn't clear. an older gray car that was the same color as the sky, sidewalk and road comes out of nowhere, runs the red light. Luckily I slammed on the brakes and avoided a T-Bone.
Every time I see someone driving in bad weather with no headlights on I wish I could hold up a sign or something that says TURN YOUR FUCKING HEADLIGHTS ON.
A lot of cars have auto headlights but the tail lights don't come on. Brake lights come on when the brake pedal is pressed. TURN THE DAMN LIGHTS ON. The life you save could be mine. or your own...
That different classes are necessary in a society, they drive others to perform better and will always propel a society forwards. Many like to think that if everything were confiscated from those who worked hard and truly earned what they have, and were distributed amongst the rest of society that all of our problems would be absolved. In a perfect world this might work, however, we do not live in a perfect world. Many would begin to take advantage of this system and society would slowly begin to degrade. Those who once worked hard would realize that their efforts to better their lives is futile and they would become like those to live with an extended palm. A great example of this is the soviet union.
Aw man... Well, I haven't gotten anything yet, I did just join. I would hope that truthfulness doesn't get frowned upon, however, we know how people can be. =/
Time has a monetary value attached to it. Expecting people to work for free to little to no money is absurd.
example: Asking your artist pal to draw something up or paint something for you but then not wanting to pay market value
or
estimating a job at work and coming up with a high number and then the bean crunchers saying its to much money and make it lower. just doesn't work like that!
That 90% of common statistics, stated without proper sources, are false. Please don't take them at face value and let them effect your thoughts or actions.
If you are motivated to criticise and yell at someone (IRL or the internet) then they will be equally motivated to criticise and yell at you. In fact, you should expect and accept this.
Your beliefs and experiences are not everyone else's beliefs and experiences. Writing off something as nonexistent or inconsequential just because it's never happened to you or doesn't affect you is dangerous and delusional. It's not easy to look at things from other people's point of view, but it's necessary if you want to be a functioning, not shitty member of society.
That literally 90% of Germans were not nazis. At their peak, the nazis only had 10% of the German population in their party. So all these posts about "oh these real Americans killing nazis", most of the time they were just killing or teenage and 20yos that weren't Nazis
Volntyr · 1 points · Posted at 17:22:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
As this is a current issue at the moment...Freedom of Speech.
A LOT of people think that it means that you can say anything you want but the actual definition means free from government censorship. Private companies can pretty much curtail anything they want however.
Accelerating to the same speed as highway traffic when merging.
Merging at the same speed as the other highway traffic will ensure that you don't create a dangerous situation when you merge, with cars coming up too fast from behind.
It's almost weekly that I fear for my life when somebody is driving 50km/h slower than the traffic that I am trying to merge in to.
I hate how people don't seem to understand this concept.
What the left lane is for... Slow traffic to the right! I'm talking to you UPS driver!
nrylee · 1 points · Posted at 17:23:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That if you think 90% of people don't have some basic understanding of what you are saying, you are either working on something groundbreaking, or you are wrong.
Coraon · 1 points · Posted at 17:25:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That sometimes you shouldn't take the high ground. Sometimes the only way to deal with an asshole is to put them in the ground. You don't do it out of hate or malice, you do it because the person is never going to learn their lesson and they need to be removed from society because society was not built for these people.
How to zipper merge!!! Don't take up 2 lanes of traffic, you can get fined for doing so. I'm not wrong for using the lane till the end. I bet you don't take up two lines at the grocery store.
Stop signs. Every time I go out driving, I almost get into an accident because someone is doing a rolling stop and they're completely ignoring the rules of the road.
Yes you could make it an argument that maybe it's me. However, I'm aware that at a 4-way stop you and other drivers are supposed to take turns. Who ever gets there first (completely stopping) is supposed to leave the intersection first and so on. But no one does this and it's infuriating!
Zj14 · 1 points · Posted at 17:28:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Fuckin drive-thrus. Order at the box, get your food at the window. Don't be that cunt
The main reason stupid shit keeps circulating around social media (Kardashians, etc.) is because people keep talking about it.
Bad attention is still attention. Just stop it!
Ereen78 · 2 points · Posted at 17:31:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Same boat, but slightly different, but people can "vote" with money. If you find a store/cd/website offensive, stop shopping there (hello Walmart complainers). It seems like everyone wants legislation for everything
That uncertainty exists( I'd put this 98%
of people).That life is complex, messy and hard to predict. There is no conspiracy against you. There is no behind the scenes control.There are no movers and shakers. Everyone's more or less clueless as to what the fuck they're doing.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:29:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There is a passing lane on any road with more than one lane traveling in the same direction. Stay the fuck out of it unless you are quickly passing someone.
Examples we get of straw mans in school seem dead obvious. But people's true opinions, feelings, and motivations in the real world are incredibly difficult to represent fairly.
The value of money isn't linear: 2x as much money doesn't make life 2x easier.
[E.g. if you win $1million in the lottery, and somebody offers you double-or-nothing, it'd be stupid to take that offer. Half the time you get nothing, and half the time you also-get-enough-money-to-retire-immediately.]
This is why taxes are graduated, and it's why a flat-tax, while seeming to be "perfectly fair", is actually very unfair: if you make only $15k/yr, ten percent tax is huge, but if you make $150k/yr, ten percent is hardly noticeable to your standard of living.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:31:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That smoking kills!
R_Lupin · 1 points · Posted at 17:31:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
omyn · 1 points · Posted at 17:32:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Standing away from the baggage claim lets everyone see the incoming luggage better, gives space to those collecting theirs and gives everyone more space to stand around in.
You won't get it any faster by standing next to the carousel.
The white line at intersections? That's where you stop. Not after it. Not in the middle of the intersection. You stop at the line. It's become a hobby of mine to snapchat people when they stop after the line and I now regularly get snaps from people around the country of people doing it. It's a little thing I guess, but it drives me nuts because I'll watch people just leisurely slow down and come to a stop in the intersection which has fucked with traffic on numerous occasions.
Just because you don't like something doesn't make it bad... others can still like that thing and that's ok.
bcbrawn · 1 points · Posted at 17:33:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you have a 5L bucket, and a 3L bucket, how do you measure precisely 4L of water using only those two buckets? (You have an unlimited amount of water available.)
nycc93 · 1 points · Posted at 17:33:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That they are not the only ones who exist.
nycc93 · 1 points · Posted at 17:33:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Apparently how an eclipse works. I work at a library and we have people pouring in to get eclipse glasses (that NASA sent us) because they think they will be blinded by just being out doing normal things. People are asking if it is safe to drive in them. NO NO NO. They are basically black out glasses. You can't see anything through them unless you are looking right at the sun. And yeah, you could get hurt looking at the eclipse, but you manage to avoid looking at the sun every other day, so this shouldn't be such a huge problem.
Economics: trade is good and there is no such thing as a trade deficit (current account + capital account = 0 always, we report the current account to get people riled up)
Most people can see why its beneficial to get your gas from a gas station down the street but not see how it is beneficial to get gas from overseas. National boundaries tends to muddy people's logic.
The server brings the order to the cooks, after that the server bring you the food that you ordered. How your food is cooked isn't usually the fault of the server.
That the US has FIFTY states. At least in the UK everyone seems to think there's '52' because 'the flag has 50 stars representing the 50 mainland states and they left out alaska and hawaii'. And I guess in the US, some people think similarly because they say Puerto Rico and other territories count as 'states' when they don't.
That we basically know nothing, while everyone has an opinion on everything. Sure people can get to a certain point of knowledge in a certain field. But to think that the average person can really grasp for instance the complexity of politics is nonsense to me.
That Jojo is the only good anime because I'm always right
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:34:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That when you do something for that benefits everyone, it benefits you as well. Single-payer health care, affordable birth control, having the minimum wage locked at whatever the living wage is for where the individual lives (kind of like how your income tax is based on where you live, not where you work), and other such things. But no, "we shouldn't pay for that".
The same idiots rip on Sweden for high tax rates. Say you have a baby on the way. The minimum wage in the US is $7.25, the cost of living is around $20 ($15 if you want to live paycheck to paycheck in a middle-of-nowhere rural area with no growth potential) if you're living alone. At 15% tax, minimum wage leaves you with $1009. Since you will likely not have insurance or have shit insurance, you'll be paying a good chunk out of pocket. Enough so that you will be living paycheck to paycheck for a while. Up that to $20 at a 55% tax rate with a first-world healthcare system like Sweden's? Take home $1440 after taxes and pay the hospital NOTHING because giving birth is free thanks to those taxes.
pouch28 · 1 points · Posted at 17:34:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Who you are in a relationship w drastically (over time) influences your health, wellness and financials.
It is not any kind of cultural sharing in any context whatsoever. I mean, American culture is aggressively exported around the planet all the time. It's meant to be shared. We share culture all the time. It's (usually) a good thing.
The idea is that a dominant culture takes ideas from another culture, gets them wrong, and then asserts them back to the point it changes or destroys the original.
And more importantly - the people who practice that culture are mad about it. If nobody is mad, there's no problem. Cultural appropriation is a concept to describe a problem that already exists, not a problem someone made up looking for something to get mad about.
Traffic circles. Honestly, it's not hard people - if you are in the circle you have the right of way and if you are not in the circle you have to yield.
Pretending to know what you're talking about is only going to make you look like an idiot. If you don't know something, ask questions instead of lying and trying to act like you have any idea about the subject. Own up to not knowing something so that you can learn something from the experience. I guess what it really boils down to is don't lie to save face, ever, because it's only going to put off the inevitable until later.
Particularly relevant during spring and summer: thinking that going to the gym is going to make you thin (girls) or the second coming of Arnold (boys).
Your diet makes your body, the gym only polishes the rough edges.
Hurting those who have hurt you only results in a cycle of pain.
jloome · 1 points · Posted at 17:38:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Cognitive dissonance occurs in far sleighter, less obvious degrees than people realize, and most people make decisions based not on their opinion, but their opinion filtered first through an autonomic and subconscious sense of security.
If it triggers any level of dissonance, they will usually oppose the new idea before they've even critically considered it.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:38:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
DDOS protection.
Domhnal · 1 points · Posted at 17:38:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The difference between racism, cultural appropriation, and celebrating diversity.
Basic computer software fixes. New operating systems are great but they go out of their way to hide whats going on under the hood. I run into so many people who have no idea/will to even attempt simple fixes to their issue. In the long term its probably harmful.
Kinda like owning a car but being unable to change the oil, batteries or tires in a pinch.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:38:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Any group or ideology that asserts a nonviolent stance can be easily overcome by any group or ideology that allows the use of force
Relativity - even special relativity. It's super cool and worth wrapping your head around it even from a layman's standpoint. You don't need to get super math-y to start to intuitively get it.
Arh920 · 1 points · Posted at 17:39:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You have to train your mind just like you train your body. Mental strength is not something people work on as much as they should.
Fox News made so much money as a PR firm publishing partisan infotainment that pretty much every other major news outlet was basically forced to follow the same model.
That free trade isn't fair trade, it's just that - free. Populist politicians like Bernie Sanders and President Trump have railed against the TPP, NAFTA and other free trade agreements. However, what they fail to realize is that those agreements are the basis of sound trade policy. Free trade is foundational to peaceful relationships between nations; it acts as a stopgap toward unnecessary conflict. Innovation and economic growth occur at the global level, which in turn increases prosperity for those living in desolate poverty in developing countries. Alongside robust labor and environmental protections, the global exploitation of workers is far reduced; but "fair trade" (protectionism) directly impedes and/or prohibits economic growth, consumer protection and strong alliances between countries.
We are all driving on the roads TOGETHER. This applies to the people who don't feel obligated to check to see if they're holding up traffic by going 5 under in the left lane as well as the hot shots who feel compelled to weave in and out of traffic without any caution.
If you raise the minimum wage all it does is cause inflation so that you get paid more but the cost of living and the price of goods goes up also so you dont really get paid more
Emotions aren't bad, but they should be kept in check in certain scenarios, like the law. And that oftentimes, being close to an emotional situation makes your opinion less relevant, not more. Because you're too close to think rationally about it.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:41:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
anything that requires more than 1 week of focus and effort to understand.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:41:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That even if you don't agree in politics, that doesn't mean the other person is an idiot or ignorant. Chances are you both have some overlap of opinions but because only the issues with most friction get brought up, you don't notice.
Driving with less than a few feet between yourself and the car you are following will get you to your destination a grand total of zero seconds faster. Calm the fuck down.
neish · 1 points · Posted at 17:42:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Correlation does not necessarily mean causation.
I have a well meaning coworker who always wants to discuss interesting articles she has read. I have tried to explain that although they may show a correlation, you still need to be critical of what the actual study is saying. This is further muddied by some journalists who are shit at reporting on scientific studies and they just push a headline because it piques reader's interest.
Computers and basic security. Even the most tech savvy people in my office are grossly incompetent in this regard. We really, really need to start teaching children more than just basic computer operation and start teaching them simple steps to avoid viruses and troubleshoot basic issues.
I don't run anti-virus on my home computer, pirate all the time, and have been virus free over 10 years. It's not hard if you take simple steps to avoid risky behavior.
I have a computer science degree. That does es not mean I can fix every problem on every computer system that has ever or will ever be invented
jloome · 1 points · Posted at 17:42:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
People who seem very intelligent are often just experts in one area.
Even people with poor critical thinking skills can develop good memory storage, particularly in one field. That's why you have guys like Dr. Ben Carson, who is a leading neurosurgeon but also a idiot.
Unless critical thinking skills are developed by the time people are in the earliest stages of rational thought (around age seven) it becomes exponentially more difficult to teach them to see past the biases that make them feel secure.
I'm sorry, but you're wrong.
A person's ability to 'critically think' is ever changing by their very observation and understanding of experiences they've witnessed. Your own bias towards Dr. Carson is a perfect example; young Mr. Carson wasn't aware of the existence let alone the significance of a CSF halo around a blood drop on gauze - but Dr. Carson learned that through classroom and clinical education.
Young Mr. Carson's experiences living in poverty in public housing undoubtedly gives him critical thinking skills that you perhaps haven't had, or have bias' against.
jloome · 1 points · Posted at 19:01:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I didn't say people can't learn to critically think past childhood. I said it's harder. In some cases, much harder.
It's also anchored by comparison and contrast. Your ability to do that, in turn, is affected by existing biases that are often ingrained during the "magical thinking" stage of biological development, while neurological pathways are developing. This process continues well into our twenties, but the bulk of development is between ages seven and eleven for most people; the further we go past that stage without learning to critically challenge magical, pre-rational assumptions, the harder it becomes to do it later.
That's why people can see the absurdity of other people believing in things absent evidence, but not their own. After a certain point, it is essential to their sense of security. In Carson's case, he allows religion to trump critical thinking on a regular basis.
This doesn't devalue what he DOES know, of course, but that's the point: we're about as smart as our biases allow, because they prevent us from accepting fact over belief.
Critical thinking is the opposite of assumption. I did a google search on his religious beliefs and didn't see any mention of science vs theology other than skills being learned, but wisdom coming from his God. Having not found any evidence of his choosing faith over fact, I did the logical and asked the person who made the statement to give an example. It is obvious that you yourself allowed your previous experiences to bias your opinion of our interaction. What were you doing from age 7 to 11? I'll read your references and be back...
jloome · 1 points · Posted at 19:57:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Everyone suffers bias, even the most critical of thinkers, and particularly when irritated. It was rude of me to suggest you hadn't tried to look it up. I apologize.
My anecdotal experience of being around Doc's all of my career is that physics and microbio were the two most hated/disliked courses. So in-depth discussions regarding subjects such as thermodynamics or macro-evolution aren't even possible, let alone a voluntary choice. When I add in that 51% of the US populace doesn't believe in the big bang theory (not the tv show), or 66% don't believe in the evolutionary theory. It seems even more understandable. People, even MD's, don't understand all the science or either theory (how could they) and so it makes the entirety of the theory itself questionable to them. Then when the personal 'comfort' of using spiritual/religious teachings to lessen perceived stresses is added to the equation it all becomes a muddled mess.
Does Dr. Carson's faith lessen his intelligence? Would it hamper his ability to act as a public servant at the federal level? Evidence in our history would suggest not - no US President claimed to be an atheist - only three President's listed no denomination affiliation - but those three stated they were men of faith. Has America's strong christian development been a hindrance, or an asset? Will America's abandonment of it's christian ties be a positive or negative?
I seriously questioned if critical thinking could be taught in a classroom setting, observed several different schools classes and objectives, spoke to the teachers and the administrators; no one had come to any one conclusion. In the years since I've revisited the idea several times, usually when I'm irritated by a casual contacts apparent lack of critical thinking skills, and I still wonder if it can be taught, and I hope it can be learned by all.
The left lane is a passing lane. If you have no one driving in front of you and vehicles behind you, you're the problem.
8979323 · 1 points · Posted at 17:43:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Basic statistics. A lot of statistics you read are either poorly reported, or deliberately misleading, but many people (95% +/- 5%) fail to understand this.
That it isn't proper English to begin statements with that
elaerna · 1 points · Posted at 17:43:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That antibiotics don't work on viruses.
That you have to finish the entire prescription of antibiotics even if you start feeling better.
That if you have a giant laceration you can't wait until the next day to get stitches put in because there will be too great a risk of infection by that time and the doctor won't do it.
That vaccinations don't cause autism and even if they did you should get them anyway because autism is better than death and spreading potential death to everyone you come in contact with. The public is wildly uneducated on the dos and don'ts of medicine - how do we fix this.
Muzea · 1 points · Posted at 17:44:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
We all die, no matter what we do in life, we all die. The most important thing in the world should be empathy, not that paper, not the sale at nordstrom, not the newest iphone. Empathy. Being able to understand how another person feels and then acting appropriately. Everyone's got one life and some people are dealt shittier cards than you. Treat them the way you'd want to be treated.
That if EVERYONE went out and got a college degree, it wouldn't make us all start making more money. And that there are jobs that society legitimately needs to have done, or simply just demands anyway, that will have to be worked by people who need to support themselves, that have no need for a college degree.
Nearly every single time I've seen someone attempt to quote profit they have incorrectly quoted revenue. The media confuses the two so frequently that I now just assume they do it deliberately to skew the story in a particular direction.
Sometimes I have Xbox Live friends I forgot about. Doesn't mean I want to reunite with you all of a sudden. And if I'm not accepting invites, it means you should stop.
Calling them Nazis only pushes them further right /s
zbbrox · 1 points · Posted at 17:45:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Marginal tax rates. People seem to have a hard time understanding that when you "move up a tax bracket" only the additional money is taxed at the higher rate. You're never going to make less money because you're in a higher bracket.
gimp150 · 1 points · Posted at 17:45:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That paying for a college education is a bad investment today. Yes, there are zero poor medical doctors, and people in other licensed professions like nurses and pharmacists might do well, but nearly everyone else will be paying student loans into their late 40's with mediocre to poor career prospects.. It is much smarter to get a skilled trade or open a small business.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:45:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That there is an extreme complexity to social, political, and economic issues. It seems like people nowadays have picked a side and are unwilling to understand the other sides. It's ridiculous because nothing is black and white. Discussion has been replaced with protesting and violence.
It means that the behavior is more likely to occur in the future because you added a preferred stimuli.
For example, a child does chores and gets a cookie. Positive reinforcement only occurs IF the child does the chores the next time. If the child hates cookies, you may have just used positive punishment inadvertently.
Another example of positive reinforcement could be reprimanding a child for talking in class and sending him to the back of the class where a friend of that child sits. The boy then talks more in class so he can get sent to the back and be given access to that seat near his friend.
seriously: if you disagree with someone, telling them they are wrong is NEVER going to work.
Help them to examine their beliefs and to see that they are illogical.. if someone comes to that realization on their own, without being told the answer, it might actually help to change their minds.
NL_MGX · 1 points · Posted at 17:46:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That the only price for your freedom is that you should grant others theirs. Your beliefs do not grant you the right to infringe them onto others.
Wiser87 · 1 points · Posted at 17:46:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Assuming you are right is nowhere near as valuable as knowing you are wrong.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:46:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Maybe not 90%, but smoking is still misunderstood. An incredible amount of people think that smoking is a bad habit, a guilty pleasure, an acquired taste, something that goes well with alcohol and coffee, something that relieves stress, helps concentration, etc.
All of these things are untrue. It's nicotine addiction, plain and simple. People smoke because nicotine is a highly addictive substance. If there weren't any nicotine in tobacco, no one would smoke.
I've been seeing too many educated adults make cheesy posts that go something along the lines of "I'm so thankful to be apart of this wedding/family/whatever"
And how to parallel park. Come on team, just think of where your wheels are in relation to the kerb and the parked cars, and its an easy job in 2 steps
As I read this amazing list of things 90% of people don't understand I am struck with this thought; we, that is all of us, understand very little about very little. We are given a set of assumptions to live by through contact with 'significant others': parents, teachers, clergy, friends, bosses, idiots, the charismatic, the loudest talking, etc. We take these teachings, eventually, as self evident. When another person has a contrary view, it is easy, if not a duty, to dismiss them. In short, humans understand almost nothing. We are "Idiot Wind" (Dylan) and it is a wonder we still know how to breath. Thank god for the very few brilliant and inspired people among us who somehow keep us moving in a forward direction.
_teleno · 1 points · Posted at 17:47:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Crypto, the diferences between the platforms (bitcoin, ethereum, NEO, eth), and what they could actually do in some years
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:47:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Left lane is for passing. Not for going slower than the right lane and getting pissed at people who are getting pissed that you're in the wrong lane.
They are quite complicated but, the general concept behind them is pretty simple. Yet, you still get people who believe that if they work more, they will make less because it'll put them in a higher tax bracket.
The reason websites use pop ups is because they work.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:50:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The high beam is used to alert the drivers in front of us. Using it as your permanent light is not ethical. It blinds the people that are driving towards you and can lead to accidents if the timing is very unfortunate (eg if you get blinded when there are potholes in front of you)
Unless you're looking to charm superficial assholes that aren't worth your time, the right personality and word use will get your much further in dating then just plain being hot because nearly everybody has accepted that most people don't look like a perfect movie star, so instead they look for a certain personality. And as cliche as it sounds, yes a confident personality is the most sought after one but certain people crave shy and less confident ones. My point is: be yourself and yes you will find someone, there is no big secret or perfect look.
How to pre pay for gas at a store that doesn't make you prepay. If you push the pay inside button, I'm going to turn the pump on, you will have already started pumping and that person you sent in to prepay your gas is left standing there feeling like an idiot and hoping you realize you need to turn the pump off yourself because I had no idea you expected it to be preset.
Blarfk · 1 points · Posted at 17:51:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What legally constitutes entrapment. This comes up on reddit a fair bit, and there are always a ton of people who try to explain it but give completely incorrect information.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:51:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Body fat is not the only contributing factor in determining body weight.
That they're not as good a driver as they think they are.
If you don't use your turn signals, or drink and drive, or text and drive, or tailgate, for long enough, you will get people killed.
Healthcare costs. People pay drastically different amounts for the same care. They understandably use anecdotal stories that assume everyone pays the same and hospitals are swimming in money. But healthcare costs/income need to be viewed in aggregate. More than half of patients insurance pay below the cost of providing the service. You don't hear those anecdotal stories because the cost was low for them. The hospital isn't getting $10 for a Tylenol from everyone, they are getting a wide range of payments that average cost plus small profit. Some people pay too much and some people don't pay at all.
beete17 · 1 points · Posted at 17:52:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Complaining to a lower level employee will not fix a problem out of their control.
Not everyone is special or above average.
You don't deserve jack shit just because you exist aside from the bare basics of survival and safety. You earn love, respect, etc. And those things can be taken away at any time.
The customer is not always right.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:53:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Responding to hate with hate isn't going to solve anything. It just makes problems worse.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:53:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Adverse Possession.
Everyone has apparently heard of it. But they also seem to think it is a really easy thing to do. It's not. Prevailing on an adverse possession claim is incredibly rare and difficult.
Kraz_I · 1 points · Posted at 17:53:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How Natural Selection works, and more broadly, how evolution works.
As an evolutionary biologist I likely have a highly skewed opinion on this, but it's deplorable to me how many people reject the theory of evolution not because they don't believe it, but because they don't understand it.
Whether or not this is because they were never taught correctly or because of personal (religious) ideals is another matter, but in my experience I have very rarely had a conversation with someone (outside of my field of study), regardless of their beliefs, that truly understands what the theory of evolution is saying.
The most common corrections?
(1) No, humans did not "come from apes".
(2) No, Evolution says nothing about how life originated. It is about how life proliferates and changes over time. Evolution is not an origin story, and I believe if Darwin had fully grasped how much grief using origin in On the Origin of Species has caused (insofar as people take his presumably intentional ribbing of creationist ideas as a tenets of the idea itself), he would have chosen a different word.
(3) No, evolution does not always mean Natural Selection. It's kind of like the "all squares are rectangles but not all rectangles are squares" thing. Natural selection is always evolution, but not the other way around.
The list could go on and on, and maybe it will one day. But for now, this rant is good enough for me. At least for this comment.
If you're being passed on the right you're doing it wrong.
shikuto · 1 points · Posted at 17:54:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The importance in the distinctions among recording engineers, mixing engineers, mastering engineers, and producers. One person can do all of those jobs, but likely not on one album. They all share the skill set of critical listening, but take somewhat drastically different applications of it.
Getting angry at a situation and then unleashing your anger upon the person who made you angry almost never helps the situation.
Dryyyyy · 1 points · Posted at 17:54:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That the bar closes at 2 and I'm not selling anymore alcohol
ikerus0 · 1 points · Posted at 17:54:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There are other people around you.
You aren the only one in the store.
Be courteous and logical, if you are looking for something, reading the back of a box, chit chatting with your stupid neighbor "oh my god we know each other and we BOTH shop at the same store that is closest to our houses, no way!! How are you!?",
just do all of these things NOT in the center of the isle with your carts blocking the sides that your fat bodies aren't taking up.
It's really simple, don't be oblivious. Realize that others are also shopping and need to get by.
(Even worse, don't have a conversation with someone in or within 5 feet of a door. Chances are you blocking it and making people squeeze past. It's a door way, go have your conversation somewhere else, like outside on the free way).
Almost anything about the United Nations is either misunderstood, or spun for domestic political gains, so that no clear understanding is had by anybody other than the diplomats themselves and the academics who study them. Which is pretty funny when you consider how many people go on about grand conspiracies one moment to criticising systemic ineptness the next.
Schrodinger's Cat is not about magical cats or the mystery of the unknown, its about how strange quantum mechanics is and how this strangeness has ramifications on our scale.
bmb445 · 1 points · Posted at 17:55:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
apparently, random sayings. People often seem to interpret them literally and that's never how it works.
That the most important skill that determines whether or not you'll be financially successful isn't what you invest in or what life insurance policy you buy, it's being able to manage your money on a day to day basis. That's the hardest part, after you generate next cash flow every month it's just figuring out what to do with it.
that a pro white riot is merely a lash back at decades of media shaming and teasing and lying in these crazy Orwellian times and it doesn't mean = skinheads
Fb62 · 1 points · Posted at 17:56:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That ads on things like computers and phones are almost never placed by the people advertising something, but are put in by the developers of the website/app you are using, and most likely formed by a company that had nothing to do with the ad itself(google admob). I learned quite a bit by making a small phone game that I would have never cared to think about before.
Also by "formed" I mean the way the ad is shaped and put in, like videos or banner ads. They make whats on the ad obviously, like the picture on the banner or what the actual video is.
An example is the post that said they will never buy something if they click on an ad that they didn't want to click on but the ad popped up where they were going to click. The developers most likely did that on purpose, and probably make over 10x the profit from that ad than they usually would have because you clicked on it and left. Granted I feel the same way, it's not the advertisers fault.
People who are on benefits/live in social housing/are homeless are not scoungers. They're just not as fortunate as us, and we should do everything we can towards creating equality.
Non-violent protest doesn't mean waving signs and hoping someone listens. It means shutting down highways and organizing worker strikes and inflicting damage to institutions of power in non-violent ways until they have no choice but to concede.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:56:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That most people's political/religious beliefs are a product of the environment they grew up in and are surrounded by, and when your family all seem to think similar things, it's hard to develope your own independent opinions once your grown up when it comes to throne specific subjects. By default, I've become very conservative because my mom and grandma are and they raised me. My best friend on the other hand isn't religious or political at all, and I've never heard a word about it when going over to his house growing up. Always confused me when our opinions differed of stuff that I thought was simple, clear and obvious when I grew up with it and he didn't. Took me a long time to figure that out and not inadvertantly push my beliefs on him and other friends, when we all grew up around different opinions. Even now, with millions of different options out there to do my own research and look away from my family for answers to politics and faith, I lean a little closer to my families upbringing than starting on neutral ground to form my own. It isn't nearly as bad as it used to be, but took me years to understand that you can't just change your mind on something's when it's all you've ever known.
If your favorite bar provides "free" noshes they are going to be salty nuts and meats and cheeses and heavy breads. All designed to get you to buy more liquor. If your furniture salesperson offers "free" delivery then you can rest assured that cost is buried within the price. If your social media site is "free" to use then you can bet there are permissions for them to reuse anything you post without cost and for profit.
The cost may not be easily visible, but it is always there.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:57:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That lack of spacial awareness is the cause for a lot of frustration between people interacting in public and on roads. If you're lost in your own little world then you create problems for others no matter how inconsequential you think your actions are.
That healthy food is all subjective to your personal diet. Sugar is phenomenally healthy for people lacking in body fat and calorie consumption, vegetables and fruit are bad for you if you've already consumed an excess of calories that day, everything with advertised protein and extra protein literally doesn't have any physical effect (besides being used for more energy) on the majority of people as most westerners already consume more than enough protein, this is true for every single micro nutrient and so on and so on.
Happiness isn't achieved by comparison to others or by receiving the approval of others. Rather, it's through self exploration and supporting others you admire. We can't do anything alone, but we can through knowing and living ourselves and using that to guide our decision making.
That there are some things disabled people can't do. Able bodied and neurotypical people love to say that "you can do anything an able bodied person can do!" but that's simply not true.
merten5 · 1 points · Posted at 17:59:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Facts do not hold within them some kind of personality or ideology. A fact is neither conservative nor liberal, tolerant or prejudiced, black or white. A fact is separate from humanity's view of it, it is how a fact is interpreted that gives it any notion of bias.
The US healthcare system. I have a degree in health care informatics, have worked in the industry for years, and I still feel like I'm faking my way through every day.
roux93 · 1 points · Posted at 18:00:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That maybe 90 percent of people don't understand a particular thing because that thing isn't something most people give a fuck about so why should they be expected to understand it?
There's no reason for so many people to have to work in office. Almost every job that doesn't involve physical interaction with something can be done via telecommuting. And there's no reason to require people to come in for face to face meetings, either.
All it does is waste people's time and money with commutes. If every company could shave 1-3 commute hours per day off their employee's 'work day', they'd probably have much happier employees.
Also it would start forcing cable companies to be more accountable with the services they provide. Right now they only guarantee your service if you have a business connection. If more people started telecommuting and saying "that's pretty fuckin' dumb" then their feet would be held to the fire more.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:02:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When your boss or employer or client or friend asks you a question (anyone you like or wish to keep around) - the first words out of your mouth should directly answer that question. THEN EXPLAIN if needed.
When you explain first but aren't clearly answering it's a) annoying b) unprofessional and c) obviously selfish.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:02:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
By talking more and more about these Nazi rallies you are giving them more of a base. Instead of organizing "counter protests" you could ignore them. There's a reason we never heard of these people on the news the last 40 years, and there's a reason why we are now. You are giving them attention.
Stop popping the popcorn before it starts pausing between pops. A few extra pieces is not worth burning them. And if you like burnt popcorn jump off a bridge your ancestry should have never survived the savannah.
That if you're rude on the road, like, trying to get over without using a turn signal, then Imma be rude right the hell back. I'm a very good driver to where I can pin you against traffic and not let go.
This this world is a capitalist country that still suppresses its people keeping them updated on the next Kardashian baby, rather than fix the flint crisis. Where we have money to build all these beautiful buildings and no money at all given to the poor.
Glad to be born in the USA /s
How to make a goddamn sandwich. I don't understand what the confusion is. The pieces of bread you use are flat. Therefore, you should lay the ingredients out flat and evenly. A big mound of shit in the middle and nothing but bread on the outsides does not make a good sandwich.
Qubeye · 1 points · Posted at 18:08:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That switching lanes repeatedly will not get you to your destination any faster, no matter how aggressive you drive.
Sonozar · 1 points · Posted at 18:08:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That people won't realize it's their fault even though it is.
EXAMPLE: I nearly got hit by a truck while crossing the road. My brother and I had agreed to go down, to a better intersection, but without telling me crossed there, and expected me to see and hear him and follow. So when he got there told me to come, when I was about halfway to that other intersection, and we needed to stick together (I'm not an adult yet) so I ran across. And boom, nearly got hit. And then he has the audacity to say, "But you didn't get hit." To this day he thinks that it's my fault, and he also said that he doesn't care about that situation, and even if I did get hit he wouldn't care and blame it on me.
Gotta love your brother, right? ❤️
EDIT: Reading this now it seems more like a rant then answering the question, so sorry about that fellow redditors. Anywhere I could post the story in better detail?
If you make a wrong and someone calls you out on it, calling them out on their past wrongs does not take away from the fact that you are wrong now. This is called a tu quoque fallacy
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:08:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just because you are upset doesn't mean you're right
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:08:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"Black Lives Matter" does not mean that POC are trying to say that their lives are more important. The best analogy I've seen is "Save the Rainforests" does not mean "fuck all other rainforests" it's just trying to draw attention to a group of people that have been treated poorly by police/govt/law etc.
Why would anyone in my generation (I'm 19) start smoking? At least in the UK it's no longer seen as cool.
I know that giving up is hard, but why would you start, knowing that it will increase the chance of you dying and cost you a literal fortune?
Tipping. I live in Vancouver BC, and my SO is a waitress in a high end restaurant.
If she doesn't get a certain % tip from the customer. She actually loses money cause she has to pay out a % to the rest of the staff.
Servers get payed below minimum wage here to compensate for the tips they earn. But the complaint is for "rounding up" tippers or to those who think it's all just bonus money for the server.
Just because your bill is $105 and you have a 5 dollar bill that rounds up the total to a nice number, don't do that unless you actually can't afford otherwise. 15% is standard unless your service is actually bad.
It's your money and your right to choose how to spend it so it's worth noting, this is more of a complaint towards the service industry for fucking over my s/o.
But it's shitty cause the non tippers are usually foreign people and then servers aren't happy to serve them from the start. Educate your families if you/them didn't know this!
I don't know if it's 90%, but too many people don't know about or understand the survivorship bias. Whether it's business, or economics, or science, or sports; we tend to only tell the stories of the winners while ignoring the non-winners. This tends to distort reality. Incidentally, this distortion is a central aspect of the so called "American Dream".
rzrshrp · 1 points · Posted at 18:10:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The difference between a tax deduction and a tax credit.
Also, how tax brackets work, i.e., having a higher gross income will never mean a smaller paycheck because of you moved into a higher tax bracket. There may be some other tax loopholes to cause that but not tax brackets.
When it comes to conspiracy theorists and science-deniers (anti-vaxxers, Obama "birthers", flat-earthers, moon mission faked, etc), providing evidence that proves they're wrong will not change their minds. It usually will have an impact however - it will make them more convinced they're right. I often see people say things like "What if we had a telescope powerful enough to actually show them the moon landing sites?" (it means the government is really desperate to fake the moon landings, they're spending thousands of dollars to build fake telescopes). "What if we take flat-earthers into space and show them the earth is round?" (wow, the government built a virtual-reality ride to simulate a space mission, that proves it's a conspiracy).
These people do not base their beliefs on "evidence" so providing them evidence will have no impact. They already know they're right. However, the act of attempting to change their minds convinces them even more that the conspiracy is real.
That walking in a bike lane on a college campus is about the same as walking in the road and that I won't feel bad if I run into you while I'm trying to bike to class.
Soup44 · 1 points · Posted at 18:11:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
that north koreas dollar store nukes arent actually a threat
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:11:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A lot of people on here trying to justify whatever world.view they hold without explicitly saying it. Tbh this is a bit of a subjective circlejerk... sooooooooooo: the top tenth percentile's answers that the bottom percentiles failed to answer on the compulsory national mathematics SAT test.
Good and Evil are really just opinions or perspectives - nothing less, nothing more.
They certainly aren't physical forces of the Universe like Gravity, and as such they can never be objectively defined. Everyone has their own ideas of what's good and what's not, and the things we really like (such as life and health) we tend to call Good, while the things we really don't like (such as things that disrupt life or health) get labeled Evil. But when disputes arise as to whether something is Good or Evil, we only have our individual and/or collective opinions on the matter to point to - we can't point at any universal, objective, scientific baseline to determine what is unquestionably Good and what is undoubtedly Evil in the way we could, for example, prove which of two surfaces was hotter or colder.
EDIT :Moreover, a lot of people have a hard time understanding how someone could believe that Good and Evil don't materially exist without becoming an amoral monster. But the truth is we tend to do the things we do (and don't do the things we don't do) because they tend to benefit us, not because we're afraid of breaking the rules. It is far more beneficial to us all that we don't go around raping, murdering and pillaging all the time, and that is enough reason not to do it; abstract ideas of morality are probably inevitable, but they are simply not necessary to foster thriving societies
That rpm on your blower, or any vacuum for that matter goes very high when it moves no air. Further, that airflow and vacuum are not the same and it requires a combination of the two to do any real work.
Remember people all things remaining the same, as rpm goes up and amps go down your moving less air. You can have a perfect vacuum and move no air.
Complaining to a cashier or other entry level employee about a company policy just makes you look like an ass. They can't change it, don't care enough to "let the higher ups know" even if they could, and they probably hate the policy too since they have to listen to people like you telling them to change it
When waiting for an elevator, pressing both "Up" and "Down" buttons is not going to get you an elvator any faster! Some goes for repressing the buttons.
How restaurants work. I can't tell you how many times I've heard someone say "$10.95 for a plate of spaghetti? I can make this at home for $2!".
Yes, you may be correct in that the restaurant has only paid around $2 for the raw materials to make a $10.95 plate of spaghetti. But restaurants also have to pay rent. They have to pay for managers, cooks, dishwashers and busboys. They have to pay for water, electricity and gas (not trivial expenses for restaurants). They have to pay for lawyers, accountants and web developers. They have to pay for tables, chairs, flatware, glassware and dishes. They have to pay for insurance and advertising.
But even when people recognize this, they always seem to ignore similar expenses for home cooking. Yes, you could maybe buy the stuff to make a plate of spaghetti for $2... but you also have to pay rent or a mortgage. You have to pay for insurance - not just for your home, but also for your car, which you'll need to buy the groceries. Add fuel, ad valorem taxes and maintenance on the car, too. There's electricity and gas to make the food, and to clean everything up afterwards, too. Those dishes and the table you eat off of weren't free, either.
Point is, you can't hold a restaurant's prices up to one standard, but ignore your own costs, too.
Mental disorders and how the brain functions in general. Anxiety and depression are not just bad moods you can 'get over'. Drug addicts don't lack self-restraint, the ability for self-restraint is physically impossible/heavily impaired. And no one neurotransmitter is responsible for any behavior.
You cannot reason Fascism away. It taps into emotions, not arguments. That is why attempting to debate against fascists is a waste of time. The germans know it, and that is why it is illegal to make the Nazi salute or any kind of Nazi discourse in there. Regardless of any right to free speech.
People dont understand that because they think theyre right, they might not be. And they also dont understand that just because (e.g.) women are typically weaker than men, it doesnt mean all men are weaker than all women. Hearing stuff like that makes them bust out 10 examples of how X is wrong
Religion is following somebody else's spiritual story.
Spirituality is following your own path to a higher state of consciousness where you can then become a brighter being of love.
Draiko · 1 points · Posted at 18:16:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Maybe not 90% but in light of recent events...
Superiority isn't declared, it's earned.
If you think you're superior to others, you have nothing to lose by making sure the playing field is level. You should be able to win any challenge with one hand tied behind your back.
So, prove it. Focus your efforts on leveling the playing field. Make sure everyone starts from the same start line, runs the same race, and crosses the same finish line. Don't stack the deck. No steroids, no paying off the ref, no cheating... Fair fight.
If you think you're so fucking superior, you should win no matter what, right? Even with one hand tied behind your back, right?
So... Prove it, motherfuckers. Level the fucking playing field and back up those hateful fucking words of yours. I dare you! I fucking dare you all!
(Sorry, I'm pretty pissed at what's been going on lately)
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:17:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Geologist here. Minerals are not magical, they will not heal you. That hippie that is selling them to you is a predator and preys on the sick.
Having some crystal will not synchronize your aura with the vibrations of the universe or whatever shit they tell you. Eat right, stay active, consult a real doctor.
Angel2j · 1 points · Posted at 18:17:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That we are all one. The elites powerful wealthy loves to divide us with propaganda and media hype to keep us distracted from the real issues such as the wealth gap and outright greed.
I don't think our racism is nowhere near the levels our media would like to make it out to be.
In my experience the only flagrant racism I've seen and heard about is in the confines of our jail and prison systems. Besides the media ofc. I think we would all be better off if we put down the msm and actually interacted with each other. My two cents ....thx for reading.
That Ranked voting systems will not, and cannot, break the two party system.
Every demonstration of its benefits, every video you see extolling the virtues of ranked choice, makes the same assumption: that the third candidate never had a chance at winning.
Range voting (think Amazon 5 Star ratings, but for candidates) solves this problem, and is used by the Olympics (judging gymnastics, etc), the UN (selecting secretary general), Surveys and Polls (Strongly Dislike/Dislike/Neutral/Like/Strongly Like is a 5 star rating).
In Overwatch, pushing the payload on offense will slowly heal you.
ddmf · 1 points · Posted at 18:19:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Thermostats - don't turn it right up thinking it will get warmer more quickly - you'll just get used to the increased heat and waste energy. Set it at a comfortable level and the heat will cut out and in to match your setting, saving energy.
ibgp · 1 points · Posted at 18:19:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You have to cycle your fish tank before fully stocking it. In other words slowly add in very hardy fish. A filter is necessary to not just make the water look clear but to also house bacteria that eat the toxic ammonia fish produce. These bacteria take time to develop into thriving colonies that can eat the ammonia at a rate that the fish produce it.
Also perform periodic partial water changes. But that's another story. For more technical understanding just google "aquarium nitrogen cycle".
Raltie · 1 points · Posted at 18:20:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Truth is not subjective.
djs758 · 1 points · Posted at 18:20:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Politicians with close ties to big donors will never serve the interests of the working class.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:21:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That you aren't dead until you're actually dead... then you stay dead. Your heart stopped, you received CPR, and were revived? You didn't die. You're heart stopped, but most of your biological functions remained intact and you were still alive.
Source: I stop and start people's hearts every day at work.
That "Evolution" is a proven fact. And Darwins "Theory of evolution by natural selection" is the theory, which in science is as good as it gets since science is always changing as our intelligence grows. Calling it a theory like it is an insult is ridiculous and makes you look dumb. It means that nobody has been able to provide any science that debunks his theory which is backed by scientific fact.
To go back to my first statement, "Evolution" is factual based on the fact that we can and have observed it happen.
catsies · 1 points · Posted at 18:22:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That the 2008 housing market collapse was not the doing of some cabal of bankers with nefarious intentions. It was a cascading systemic failure. Based on good intentions, stupidity, bad business practices, and a quite frankly unimaginable amount of easy money. A lot of people had a piece of the big picture but no one put it together until it was too late to do anything about. And no one person or group of people is truly at fault for it happening. It was a growing problem for years, its just that when the floor fell out, it really fell out.
You don't get to decide if you're a good person. When someone calls you an asshole, you don't get to make excuses like how long of a day you've had and point fingers like everything is everyone else's fault and not yours. Take responsibility for your actions.
wrkyle · 1 points · Posted at 18:24:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You're not buying a bag of air when you buy potato chips. It tells you on the package how many grams of chips are in the bag.
Frequently the price per 100g is on the price label too. Use your big ape brain and figure out which provides the better value and thank the heavens that they do pump the bags full of air. You'd be much less happy if they didn't.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:24:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's fine to just sit quietly with someone. This usually doesn't go on long naturally, maybe a few minutes. You're not obligated to prevent silence. Don't worry about hurrying to think of a new subject or a question to ask or something. You don't seem weird or stupid if you let the silence run its course or stay.
Edit for a related point: Someone being very quiet doesn't mean they're depressed or angry. Asking "Why are you so quiet?" or saying "Wow, I never see you outside of your place" can really put someone off, though it's usually said in good humor or to start a conversation. Feel free to ask how they are or if they need anything, unless they've stated that they want to be left alone.
That people who vote for a different political party aren't bad people. That they care about fellow citizens just as much as people of your party do. They have different ideas about how to best help them but all parties (that have some success) want to create the best country they can.
discrimination against gay/trans people can still legally happen. there is nothing in the constitution saying that discriminating because of sexual identity or gender identity isn't illegal.
and that politicians are using "religious freedom laws" in order to discriminate against gay people. you can't legally deny service to someone because of the colour of their skin on religious basis, so why in the FUCK is it legal for you to discriminate against people due to their sexual orientation on religious basis.
this isn't a gay rights issue, this is a civil rights issue.
Drunner · 1 points · Posted at 18:25:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Body weight is the result of calories in vs calories out for 99.9% of the population who have no genetic disorders related to metabolism.
Whatever individual or group Satoshi Nakamoto is, who owns the Bitcoins from the Genesis block... if Bitcoin does gain widespread adoption as not just an investment vehicle, but currency, they will become the richest most powerful entity on the planet.
But the coins have never moved........ Maybe he lost the key =]
Because he owns more bitcoins than anyone else from being the first person to run the mining software. He has millions and millions of dollars worth of bitcoins... But none of them have ever been spent of even moved.
I'm not knowledgeable on the topic, but if we don't know the creator's identity, does that not imply we don't know if they mine Bitcoins? How can we be sure they were never moved if we don't know who they are?
You've managed to start making "some pretty good money" in 5 days? Impressive.
Also, "looking at the block chain" must be an insanely inefficient way of checking someone's balance. It would only make sense to look at transactions directly involving the person in question. Indeed, the address receiving the reward or Block 0 has never spent a penny. If this page is to be trusted, however, said reward cannot be spent... Leaving the guy with 16 BTC. Probably still a huge amount of money, I suppose, but hardly as impressive as that initial 50...
Basic thermodynamics. If it's cooler insider than it is outside, and you want to keep it that way, DON'T OPEN A WINDOW! "But there is a nice breeze outside..."
Supporting free speech means learning to accept ideas that you may disagree with. As soon as you start the segregation of ideas and telling others their beliefs are wrong, you are actively harming the notion of free thought.
That the government does not have direct control of health insurance prices in the US. When they raise premiums, it's not because they "have to". The companies do it for profit and profit alone.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:28:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Inventing nefarious ends to ones proposed means is not only disingenuous and often false, but also counterintuitive to finding a solution. This is true of all verbal disputes and particularly cancerous in politics.
jtwin73 · 1 points · Posted at 18:28:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:28:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That there were also communists at Charlottesville who were also violent, it was literally two extreme ends of the spectrum there, and fuck both of them.
The reason it takes a while to get your paperwork or order, or other submission processed is because you aren't special and you aren't first. You send it in, it is put in line to be dealt with when the others in that came before are done.
Compounding: Einstein says it's the 8th wonder of the world and I think that is understating it. I only truly started appreciating it when I started investing but have started to see its effect on all aspects of my life, I try and compound myself daily exponentially developing everything from my marketable skills to the distance I cycle on my excercise bike.
Bad Customers (Lots of them) of (frequently) minimum wage earners:
You are not a king/queen. The cashier doesn't work FOR YOU. You are participating in a transaction of give/take. Your mild frustration is not cause for the entire world to end because "you are unhappy" with whatever small thing has inconvenienced you (a long wait, a price check, a damaged item, an expired return.)Be respectful. Your money doesn't buy you the right to abuse people, whether they're on the clock or not.
Just because you happened to notice me, it doesn't mean I have the answer you are seeking to your question, or the resolution to your problem. Asking nicely before launching into your demands is probably well advised. Also - sometimes people just don't know the answer to what you want. It's not a justification for your anger. "WHAT?? you mean you don't sell doo-hickeys? WHY?"
Just because the question crossed your mind, it doesn't mean you deserve or should command an immediate, satisfactory answer. "BUT HOW LONG?????" maybe there is no answer. Maybe everyone is just doing there best.
A minimum wage employee is not going to fix your problem, or care about it, nor should they in many cases. "You are sold OUT of CHOCOLATE?!" or "Why aren't there more cashiers?" barked at the harried seventeen year old. Totally unnecessary. Call or speak to someone senior that can actually address your problem.
Waiting in line is your CHOICE no one forces you to wait. If you don't like it, DON'T WAIT. Don't yell at the clerk.
That you are supposed to walk on the right side of the staircase.
Virlas · 1 points · Posted at 18:29:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That human minds are are almost as basic as a circuit board and way more manipulative as we want to believe it really is. while lying to try and prove that we have some vague form of control.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:30:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to drive in traffic. Instead of flooring the gas and slamming on the brakes a million times - drive slower and coast further to break up the traffic.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:30:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That a healthy body, including mental and emotional health, can be obtained with a tailored exercise regime and moderate intake of nutrients that your body needs.
When my mom and uncle are gossiping about me on the other side of the room, I can hear everything they're saying, even if they're whispering. I'm not deaf.
yup. and black people tend to hang out with black people, chinese tend to hang out with chinese, etc.
the definition of true diversity is when you can go somewhere else on the planet and find a culture and people different from your own, instead of just blending everyone into one nation.
Not exactly. It's genetic differences through millennia of mixing.
Take a black man and a white woman. They pop out a baby. Baby doesn't look white or black. That kid goes off to marry someone like them. black/white parents. They do the same, then the same then the same. Over time they've created a group of people who look nothing like black or white despite having ancestry that leads to that.
It's not complicated. It just requires a little bit of abstract thinking.
You drawing a line in the sand saying we are different because of skin/hair/eye features is extremely ignorant.
Im not sure that I am. I dont deny that we are a single species and that we cant interbreed. What I am trying to get across is that on a macro level people of a particular race tend to stick with themselves.
so when you see mass immigration into europe wherein you have a major difference in skin color between the two groups its not suprising you will see massive discord.
Many places have this problem - there is always a "china town" or "little italy" in major cities. people tend to stick to their own kind. I would counter by saying that trying to combat this through calling people racist or bigoted for following their own tendencies is extremely ignorant.
and thank god there isnt global government. I know were going off on a tangent here, but consider that under a single government - should it go rogue...like say a dictatorship. who would save us?
diversity isnt just about race. its about having nations or groups of nations that represent an ideal that can debate and if necessary intervene.
case in point: germany 1939. if that was the global government what would we do?
im about to head out to work so please respond but realize I wont be able to do in kind for a few hours. apologies but dont think im avoiding you - im enjoying this debate!
A more advanced human species, that was capable of being individual responsible, viewed each other as equal on the basis of humanity first. Could handle a global government. Because viewpoints on the basis of being a decent human were united. We aren't even close to that point. It would be nice because in order to truly advance our species to the stars and beyond we have to by default have a viewpoint like or similar to that. As it stands now we're 7 billion slightly less retarded apes overly caring about yourselves, our mundane lives and our feelings. And as a result you have shit like ISIS, Neo-nazi's, genocide and a bunch of other horrendous shit that shouldn't ever happen. I've said it before, aliens need to show up and start blowing shit up. We're too stupid to respect each other on a simple basis of being human.
If we want to advance ourselves we need to raise our collective IQ's through the usual methods.
Different ideals are definately in play and you are right, some of them are pure shit. But I posit that its the conflict that creates the element needed in the evolutionary process that makes us better overall. in nature this is certainly the case - a species in trouble needs to adapt or die, which leads to a stronger species.
But putting that aside, be careful what you wish for when it comes to aliens. How many times in history did we see a more advanced culture meed a more primitive one and it worked out? zero.
I'm ok with humanity being wiped out by a more advanced species. In my humble opinion we don't deserve existence. We've advanced ourselves to the point where information is but a few clicks away yet we seldom take advantage of it. There should be no reason to question what is already known. There should be no reason to be bias or hold false beliefs. For information is more available today than it ever has in human history. We as a collective group are going backwards.
I'm ok with humanity being wiped out by a more advanced species. In my humble opinion we don't deserve existence.
I was in that state too. I even joined the "voluntary extinction movement" when I was younger.
Try not to get down too much - I know humanity sucks but as with everything its a double edged sword. We have the longest lifespan ever known because of modern medicine, the internet allows us to interact and communicate, and we have all kinds of ways to make our lives better.
I agree we are going backwards right now, this is the natural ebb and flow of things. there is no such thing as a straight down or up curve, it pulsates, but the general trend is to go up.
Very true and in my opinion global events cause tides to shift. Outbreak of war, Natural disasters, global powers falling. Something one day will cause a shift in consciousness globally. I have no idea what it will be but I'm excited to see the outcome of whatever that event is.
If you're in the left lane doing the speed limit, and someone behind you is going faster and closing in on you, get in the next lane. Not only courteous but makes the entire road safer
That other people are entitled to their opinions and right to express those opinions, no matter how much you disagree with them and even if they are wrong.
That when referring to you and someone doing something you say him and I not me and him. I know it's small but it seems like everyone has forgotten this.
Your supposed to use the turn signal to signal to other people that you're turning, its not some arbitrary signal that you do for no reason
Bresdin · 1 points · Posted at 18:34:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you are turning left in a large truck/suc dont pull way ahead of the small car turning right. That slows traffic down, if i can go on my end you can go on yours
bbcard1 · 1 points · Posted at 18:34:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Probably how to score a baseball game or bowling by hand.
Freedom of speech means that you can say whatever you want but I can verbally respond to you by saying whatever I want. Freedom of speech is not a shield to stop people from criticising you
VaelinX · 1 points · Posted at 18:35:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That truth, like beauty, is something that falls under philosophy and not science.
Science is about facts, not truth. Truth, and often other philosophical and religious constructs, can encourage and motivate scientists, but it is not the product of a scientists work. Facts have limitations and factual observations can be refined with time as those limitations are better understood and/or overcome.
This is why several physical laws or tried and true theories have several forms. The forms are often consistent, but as parameters change we use forms more simplified for the domain we're working in. And in many cases the relationships were independently validated in the different frames and we later learned it was all part of a single phenomena. It is a fundamental tenant of the scientific method that what we produce is a better understanding, not an immutable truth.
No belief system is monolithic. From feminism to Islam to Fascism to American conservatism to anything else. These are collections of various people with widely varying ideas about the most important ideas withing their specific set of beliefs.
Take, for instance, the neo-Nazis as a faction of Trump supporters. Their support of Trump doesn't make everyone in his movement a racist and bigot, but it also can't be denied that the many ideas at the core of his movement have attracted and fostered the racist beliefs some of his supporters hold.
The basic point is that it is important to not make a monolith of any belief system just because a certain group within that belief system is more vocal or more prominent. Every group of shared ideas is as diverse as the people who comprise the group, and though that can make the world seem far too complex at times, it's a necessary complexity if we ever hope to truly understand our fellow human beings.
Motorcyclist should have extra room behind them when driving because if you rear end them, even if they are at a stop...... It won't be fun for either of you
Isn't faith required by definition for belief? I mean, yeah a concluding should have a logical argument for how we got here, but belief is your position when evidence isn't there.
That a government investing in its people is not socialism.
Socialism is an economy where the government controls the means of production. Capitalism is where the private sector controls the means of production. Countries like the US and Sweden are capitalist by definition; Sweden just chooses to invest in education over bombs, but their means of production are both controlled by the private sector (Volvo, ikea, h&m, Spotify, etc.)
If anything a government investing in the welfare of its people by offering education or healthcare is more capitalistic than anything else because it provides more opportunities for private-sector competition across all market domains, including the labor market.
High interest pay day loans. The amount of people that see something like 3600% APR and believe that if you borrow $1 then you then you will owe $3600 after a single year. Tried explaining it to numerous people but some just can't understand that the dollar is 100% and that you dont just time your borrowed amount by the APR.
Pella86 · 1 points · Posted at 18:38:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Relativity. Everything is relative to some kind of construct and concept.
Truth is just what we human agree to be the best possible explanation. Is a relative measure, there is no absolute truth.
Many -ism are also depicted as absolutes but in general is a gradient, a label of thousands of shades, like nazism has good sides also feminism has bad one.
Almost anything in life is not black or white but something deeper and with more shades than we usually think. Yet for simplicity we give labels that helps us understanding the complexity behind, yet those are simply labels
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:38:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"Freedom of Speech" just means you won't be arrested for your speech. It does not mean there are no consequences for your speech. If you are vocal about an opinion that lots of people think is crap, people have the freedom to boycott your business, stop watching your TV show, or otherwise voice their opinions to the contrary.
If the CEO of Chick Fil A wants to be outspoken about his feelings regarding gay marriage, the public may stop eating there. If JC Penny hires Ellen as a spokesperson, the Million Moms might make a stink about it on social media. If you go on Twitter and make noise about how all Muslims should be sent back to wherever, you will likely have consequences.
Tl;dr - "freedom of speech" doesn't mean you get to be a dick.
Alot of people think that people become vampires by being bitten by a vampire, but most of the stories actually say you become a vampire by drinking a vampires blood.
Insult artists all you want but your stupid house would be bare and your life colorless and cards/shirts/GAMES/tv/movies/clothes would be dull and shitty. You ever see that pic of video game programmers trying to draw Kirby? Yea, that would be life.
Fuck off if all you have time to do is insult people's jobs and intelligence.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:39:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
the fact that other drivers are human beings and just because they're in a car doesn't mean you can shit all over them
That economics is about efficiency, and the points at which things are most efficient. Lets use taxes for instance. People argue about raising or lowering. One side says we need to lower taxes on the rich so they can get more money and invest it in things, and the other side says the rich don't give their fair share. Well in economics you would try to find the most efficient level at which you would have investment while still being able to use government funds to provide opportunity to people. And further more its not about weather we should use the government to give equal opportunity for people to get ahead, we know that higher levels of opportunity benefit our economy by increasing productivity exponentially. The question is what is the level we should invest in providing opportunity to maximize the money multiplier of the invested money.
How to correctly (and lawfully) turn around in a median while driving.
95% of drivers use the wrong side, and not only is it unlawful, it also causes thousands and thousands of unnecessary deaths every single year.
(Other drivers can't see oncoming traffic when you do that shit, yo.)
chrbir1 · 1 points · Posted at 18:40:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:40:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That words matter.
What you say and what you write is important. That is what fuels our laws, contracts, company policies, and interpersonal interactions. You should never assume that people know what you mean. Be clear.
the use of blinkers...(I live in Memphis and I fell like the only one who uses it.)
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:40:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
According to my schools engineering drop out rate, how difficult it is going to university for engineering.
Jaerba · 1 points · Posted at 18:41:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That consumer products fulfill needs outside of their tech specs.
Beats headphones fill important customers' needs even with mediocre fidelity.
Just about everyone cares about vanity/looking good for others in some part of their life.
gubbear · 1 points · Posted at 18:41:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Basic economics...
Looking at most of Reddit, specifically Trump or Bernie supporters (especially Trump supporters).
The basic STEM bros are the worst. Bruh you get fluid dynamics, fantastic, doesn't mean your opinion on the role of interest rate management and FED policy is valid.
addie80 · 1 points · Posted at 18:41:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That hatred cannot be defeated by hatred...where's the love everyone?
That this question is posted basically everyday and is not at all original
Hexomin · 1 points · Posted at 18:41:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Placebos. People think of the placebo effect as some incredible mind-over-matter ability of the body to heal itself based solely on the expectation of improvement. In reality, placebos have essentially no legitimate use outside of clinical trials, and the placebo effect really should be called the placebo effects.
Placebo effects are anything in a study other than the active intervention being studied. Regression to the mean, the natural course of the disease, biased reporting, subjective improvement, etc. The point of modern clinical trials is to compare the active intervention to a control group. Both groups have comparable placebo effects, which are subtracted out.
Placebo interventions do not alter underlying physiological processes. They may improve subjective symptoms, though even this is questionable. All we can really say is that the influence how patients describe their symptoms. It's possible that there is no change in how they actually feel, but they think they should feel better and thus unconsciously are biased in how they report it.
For example, if you give patients having an asthma exacerbation a placebo inhaler, many will report feeling some degree of relief. They may or may not actually feel relief, it's hard to say. However, lung function, and thus important outcomes like mortality, will be unchanged.
TL;DR Outside of clinical trials, placebos have essentially no role. People vastly overestimate what they can do.
The affordable healthcare act. I've heard people explain how the affordable healthcare act was better than Obama care back when they were literally the exact same thing.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:41:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm not locked in here with you, you're locked in here with me.
The freedom of speech guaranteed by the US constitution does not a) protect you indefinitely from retaliation by private citizens and businesses b) extend past the US borders.
dvshnk2 · 1 points · Posted at 18:42:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I just work registers. I don't make the prices, I don't control how much stock we have. I don't own this place. Talk to the owners about your pointless problems
That there's a difference of how the public perceives it when a nazi commits a crime compared to how the public perceives it when a muslim terrorist commits a terror crime
"When a muslim does something it's only 1 guy, when a nazi does something, it's every nazi"
You do realize that Nazi are just a horrible group of people in general and Muslim is just a religion right? I think you need to be re-educated. They can't really be compared.
That's exactly what i'm saying, but alt rights and nazis seem not to understand it. Which is why i put quotation marks around the last sentence
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:42:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Merging lanes on freeways. People will be driving 30 miles an hour on a freeway metered for 60. There's no reason for this either; no accidents, nothing. People just suck at driving on freeways.
No one respects a doormat.
Not everyone needs to be your friend.
If you can't even afford the price of a new puppy, you can't afford to own a pet. Buy some fucking pet insurance too. Fifi only needs to get into your chocolate stash once to cost more than a wrecked car.
You can't learn a language by staring at books all day. Or by watching Chinese cartoons.
College takes actual work if you want an actual degree.
High school will often actually do more harm than good in prepping you for college if it allows you to learn how to game the system, getting the highest grades for the least effort.
The benefit to taking high school seriously is tens and hundreds of thousands of dollars saved both in terms of taking less college and in terms of hitting the labor force earlier.
Community colleges in college towns are often offering identical classes taught by the same junior professors you'd see at the college for about half the price.
There is always someone better. You might be Valedictorian of your high school but you shouldn't be surprised to discover that's average, at best, at MIT.
If you truly want to do it, you should be putting your all into it. Natural talent ain't gonna save you from the dude who puts in the hours. You're not entitled to anything.
If your response to being told that you're being censorious is to say it can't be censorship because you're not a state actor, it just tells them you wish you were. Especially if you continue to ignore their arguments and points.
People tend to act out their desires on those around them. Sometimes they're hitting on a girl they want to take to the booty bunker, sometimes they're quiet and withdrawn because they really do just want to be left alone.
Getting political extremists fired from their jobs isn't helping anyone and will most likely only serve to further radicalize them.
The court case was about the US government banning distribution of a video critical of a candidate.
The ruling was not that money = speech, it was that money spent on speech was protected the same way that speech was. Otherwise, the government could censor books and movies and websites by saying "oh, you cannot spend money on them," which would make a farce out of freedom of the press.
This was actually a followup to a 1970s court decision which decided the same thing for private individuals; the fact that it was applied to groups of individuals by the Citizens United decision is actually not very surprising.
It should be noted that the ACLU supported Citizens United in the case and agreed with the US Supreme Court's decision.
when ordering at Starbucks, us baristas need to know what size you would like for the first drink before you start saying what you would like for the second drink.
A pony is not a baby horse. A baby horse or pony is called a foal. A male foal is a colt, a female is a filly. An altered (neutered) male horse is a gelding, unaltered is a stallion. A female is a mare either way as altering is rarely done.
Being rude/aggressive with somebody rarely gets you're situation resolved more quickly. Most the time the result is the same as if you'd been polite but the person now thinks your an ass hole too!
How to merge;
It is not the responsibility of people on the highway to merge you into traffic by matching whatever speed you feel like entering the far right lane.
It is your responsibility to match the speed of cars in the lane you're entering.
Meetings break up the work day, causing everyone attending to be much less productive. A group e-mail will suffice for almost every question that needs answering.
Just because I work at a fast food restaurant does not mean I can give you free food..
MotoLGD · 1 points · Posted at 18:47:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just because you don't agree with what I want to do in the future, doesn't mean you're right.
"You're doing Art? You're an idiot. Why don't you just do something better?"
That's what my Mum said after I had excitedly told her I wanted to do Art in the future.
That just because something was the first, does not mean it's the "best."
Example:
Black Sabbath is not the best metal band of all time.
Citizen Kane is not the best movie of all time.
Poe is not the best horror author of all time.
You can pioneer something, and that definitely has value. But if the first person to ever play a certain kind of music is really the best there ever was, and no band that came after can possibly surpass that, that form of art is probably pretty shitty, and allows for no room for innovation and expansion
That bitcoin will revolutionize finance just the same way as email did to the postal service. By acquiring just one bitcoin you could secure some serious future wealth.
"ad hominem" is not a synonym for insult. It is an attack on the person instead of their argument. "You are wrong because you are a dumbass" is an ad hominem attack and a logical fallacy. "You are wrong because x. You are also a dumbass" Is rude but not an ad hominem.
Tax brackets. I've given up trying to explain it to coworkers whenever tax season is looming or taxes are otherwise discussed. People are fucking stupid.
If you put a reference to pop culture in your comment you are not being clever or funny you are just wasting space. Yes I know someone is going to reply to this with a somehow relevant Rick and Morty quote. (XRA was way better u dolts)
That things always change and we humas should adapt. Industrialized Meat consumption, plastic etc. are examples that it is over due we collectively change our behavior.
That we should always constructively question the status quo.
That helping others also results for a better world for you, as well as those who come after us.
That it's not always good for you to choose to most comfortable way. Is good to sometimes be hungry, or cold and be challenged.
Edit: one more: That putting alot of effort into changing things with a wholistic approach is actually cheaper as well as more efficient on a long term than going for quick short term solutions.
"I think" does not mean "I know". I've had countless arguments with people because I said I think it's this, then later they say I thought you said this blah blah blah when I specifically said "I'm not sure but I think this". Annoys the hell out of me.
People believe that knights and other armored individuals during the middle ages fought like jedi. That battles were a bunch of people having their own personal duel next to each other. That you could cut through plate, gambeson, and mail like butter. That horses didn't wear armor, and that archers would use their bows as melee weapons.
JMJimmy · 1 points · Posted at 18:49:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to read an ISO document (or law) where specific terms are defined which do not correspond to the "common" meaning.
If you don't understand normative vs informative, scope of defined terms, and many of the other rather important details of ISO directives (https://www.iso.org/directives-and-policies.html) you shouldn't be trying to read (or write) ISO documents.
Airliners don't fly themselves. In 2016 there were 271 "critical" equipment failures on airliners in the United States alone. Engine failures, engine explosions, electrical shorts, hydraulic leaks, cabin depressurizations, FMS failures, and loss of communication radios are just a few examples. The only reason none of them were major news is because in each and every case the pilots were able to safely land the airplanes without fatalities.
More often than not winning an argument will not get your point of view respected nor will others enact what you wanted of them. The most effective way to get people to do things if for them to come up with the idea themselves. Ask the right questions to lead people towards the way you want people to do things and they'll be more inclined to do it the way you led them to. It's a weird concept, but the basic premise is that you're allowing their brain to believe it came up with the solution itself, and thus it is a good way to do things.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:50:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Even if you "win" an argument, you're not going to change that person's views or way of life.
That the world would be much nicer if we were charming. If we didn't burp or fart or do anything rude or ugly in the presence of others, and spoke in a charming manner, the world would be a much nicer place to be.
Obviously, but given that we have surpassed basic human instinct and have developed art and philosophy over countless generations, you'd think we'd be more civilised that we tend to be.
"It's everyone's responsibility" is the same as it being no one's responsibility. Communal responsibility is just bad management. It just gives everyone the excuse that someone else will do it. No matter how small, make sure someone is acceptable for everything. Even the toilet paper.
because that repeated comment seems to get on the top 10 comment karma every damn time this is asked.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:52:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Calculus. I'm just surprised by the number of people who've taken calculus but yet don't understand something like how acceleration and speed relate in terms of calculus.
awvoor · 1 points · Posted at 18:52:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Pushing the elevator button once is enough!
B789 · 1 points · Posted at 18:52:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Progressive tax rates.
If the cutoff line for the new bracket is at X, you are not taxed more just by simply surpassing the threshold. Only the income ABOVE X is taxed at the higher rate. The income UNDER X is taxed at the previous lower percentage.
Example: If a person makes $52,000 then $57,000 and uses the below example tax bracket, my tax would be as calculated:
Bottom
Top
Rate
$ 0
$15,000
0%
$15,001
$35,000
10%
$35,001
$55,000
15%
$55,001
$75,000
20%
If I earn $52,000, tax is:
$15,000 x 0% = $0
$20,000 x 10% = $2,000
$17,000 x 15% = $2,550
Total salary = $52,000
Total tax = $4,550
Effective tax (total tax / total salary) = 8.75%
If I earn $57,000, tax is:
$15,000 x 0% = $0
$20,000 x 10% = $2,000
$20,000 x 15% = $3,000
$2,000 X 20% = $400
Total salary = $57,000
Total tax = $5,400
Effective tax (total tax / total salary) = 9.47%
Even though the increase in example income put the person into a 5% higher tax bracket, the total effective tax rate only increased 0.72% as a result of the taxes paid on only the new income.
That this whole democracy aka capitalism is there so can live like kings or queens at a cost. Which is working 80%of your life or taking advantage of you fellow men and women or in other words stealing. If your life is unfulfilling maybe you should sacrifice something to balance shit out in your life and find equilibrium.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:53:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When you have 8 billion people on earth, there are going to be assholes. That means Muslim extrimists, white supremacists, etc. We need to stop giving them attention, which will lessen their power.
What following distance in a car is. My parents say people tailgate you to get you to go faster, but then I'll catch my dad doing it unintentionally and I'm convinced people are mostly too dumb or not paying enough attention for proper following distance. There's no way all the cars I see tailgate each other do it out of spite.
htmwc · 1 points · Posted at 18:53:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Almost everything if I'm honest. We're all stupid in reality, just most of us know one particular thing well enough not to be stupid in that field.
devraj7 · 1 points · Posted at 18:53:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When donating to charity, the fact that you can write it off doesn't necessarily mean that you will pay that much less taxes. It might even mean you're not going to save any taxes.
Depending on where you live, that deduction is actually taken off your declared income, and if this doesn't make you go down one bracket, you will pay exactly the same amount of taxes.
That points of view are inherently subjective, and our guesses about what other people are thinking or feeling are unavoidably colored by our own thoughts and feelings.
That using the same data point that inspired a belief to 'prove' the validity of that belief is an inherently flawed process. A test that cannot fail is not a test.
pyromps · 1 points · Posted at 18:53:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You only need to ask me to do something once. Repeating it does NOT mean I'll get it done faster
Fraxxxi · 1 points · Posted at 18:53:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That if you play stupid games, you may often win stupid prizes.
As an auto insurance adjuster I've got so many people that argue with me over the stupidest things.
I've got people who aren't licensed try to argue auto negligence with me.
"Car a was driving slow in the left lane, car b was behind them and changed lanes and was in accident with car c. Car A is clearly at fault for this accident because of move over laws!"
No. There is no situation -ever- where that is true. Car B still committed the unsafe lane change and failed to have a proper lookout out. They still CHOSE to change lanes.
"Well the police said xyz about liability"
Cool. They aren't adjusters. They also probably didn't witness the accident either.
When they argue with me about liability. Like parking lots. "They should of seen me backing out! I was halfway out! It's their fault!"
No. You have the greater duty when backing. Especially if you didn't even see the other vehicle until impact.
When they try to say "they were speeding, they ran the light, etc" but then didn't see them till impact. If you didn't see them till impact you can't say any of that.
Demanding to speak with a manager. They are an adjuster just like me. 99/100 the answer won't change speaking to a manager. Pretty much EVERYTHING I do is regulated by your contract which is regulated by the Department of Insurance. I'm sorry you drive a suburban but only have economy rental, no I won't put you in a large SUV.
Opinions and facts are not the same thing. You can choose to accept a fact or not to. Your opinion that dinosaurs never existed does not change all the facts pointing to their existence.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:54:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you think of any group of people as "sub-human" or "less than" you, you are wrong. It doesn't matter what political, religious, or other side you are on. You are wrong, and history has proven time and time again that we are all just humans. We are all equally important, even when our views and lifestyles are drastically different.
Blacks, gays, hill-billies, fat people, muslims and even racists. You may not like who these people are and you may not like their opinions, but they are all humans and should be treated as such. We can discuss and argue our opinions and lifestyles, but once you start seeing a group as sub-human, that's how radical ideology and deepening political divides take root.
That 90% of our actions are habitual. Master your own psychology instead of focusing on that which is out of your control. Lead by example and people will be more likely to follow compared to bitching, moaning, and yelling.
Television and film resolutions and aspect ratios. 4:3, NTSC, PAL, 16:9, 720p, 1080p, 4K, Ultra HD, HDR10, Dolby Vision etc.
Most people do not have a clue about what any of this stuff means!! Perhaps 99%
I don't want to jump up a tax bracket. I'll get taxed more and take home less than I do now.
And my favorite one that one of my employees told me recently
I don't want to be 1099. I want to be W2. At my last job, I made $130k in a year and the IRS gave me $8k. I didn't pay no taxes.
"No, dude. Look at a pay stub. You made $8k in 2 weeks and they held $2,700 out in taxes. They took $5k from you every month. That's $60k, dude. I keep you at 1099, you go to a CPA and get an LLC formed. You can lease your vehicle to you LLC and write off basically anything you spend money on. Just keep receipts. You'll end up paying in $10-$15k if you do it right."
But I don't like keeping receipts and they held my child support out, too.
The joys of the oilfield. There are some brilliant people, but goddamn, there are some illiterate mouth breathers.
Rotten Tomatoes movie rating system. Look at the average rating for the film's score. Look at the tomatometer for the film's popularity and ratio of good reviews to bad. Stop bashing on a useful website!
Nerdn1 · 1 points · Posted at 18:56:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Freedom of speech doesn't protect you from criticism. It also doesn't protect you from consequences as it only protects you from the government, not private businesses (with some exceptions for anti-discrimination civil rights protections).
The people at the top of the margin are the ones that issue raises for everyone below them. At a certain point they stopped giving substantial raises to the lower people and filling their own pockets with much later raises. Rinse repeat for a couple decades and you now have the American economic system. See pretty simple right?
DC is not a state. So when you read articles and see DC ranked first or last it's because it's more like a city.
Cahnis · 1 points · Posted at 18:58:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Libraries needs to throw some books out. Guys... there is no need to freak out everytime we decided to recycle one of our 19 copies of the windows 95 manual that no one has borrowed since 1998.
Oveleoj · 1 points · Posted at 18:58:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
90% of Americans don't know what the British Currency is
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:58:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to read the signs provided to direct you towards whatever it is you're trying to accomplish.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:58:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Reality is virtual. A virtual reality means that reality is based on information. An information based reality means that our reality is not physical or objective, albeit appearing that way to an observer at our level. This is demonstrated by the famous double slit experiment. Basically, you aren't "in" a universe at all, you are consciousness experiencing a data stream of information. If you've been living for 20+ years like most of us thinking you are a physical body in a physical, elemental universe that is out there regardless of whether any conscious being is observing it, then these ideas will be hard to grasp. Hell, they will be hard to grasp even a year thinking about them.
Say you're sitting in an office right now with a wall behind you. In reality there is no physical wall behind you right now because you are not looking at it, so it is not being rendered. What IS there is a probability distribution of things that could be there. When you turn your head and make a 'measurement' with your eyes, you collapse that probability distribution and there is likely to still be a wall there because consistency in a VR is vital in creating a productive learning lab for consciousness evolution.
TL;DR: 90%+ of people don't seem to understand the nature of the reality that they are in. More like 99%.
That we the voters are responsible for the dysfunction of Congress. Repeatedly, polls show that we want our representatives to work together and to act in a bipartisan manner, but people forget that means compromise. And when campaign season comes round primary challengers focus on the ground given up and not what was gained (think GOP raising taxes as part of some bargain).
If we want politicians to work together than we should keep compromise in mind when a challenger paints an incumbent as a traitor to party ideals.
mdreed · 1 points · Posted at 19:00:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Marginal tax rates. Earning more money will never cause your after tax earnings to be less.
I will double down on this and say most people don't understand how tax works in general, Take a look at this guy ( who claims that his parents are senior accountants at top 4 firms. ), Follow the comment thread:
Funnily enough it seems that those who are most vocal about it have the least idea.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:00:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How capitalism actually works in practice in the US. Plenty of opinions about how "the System" ought to work (, man), but very little comprehension of how it actually does.
Seriously, had a woman at work today ask me about goggles for her kid and after asking the simplest question (which one has clear lenses?) she kept interrupting me and obsessing over her little girl who she's not sure if she'll like whatever she gets.
Took about 10 minutes total to tell her "these ones with the clear lenses that aren't tinted" which was obvious if you had eyes in the first place.
The poem "The Road Less Traveled" by Robert Frost. It is one of the most misinterpreted poems ever.
EmDeeEm · 1 points · Posted at 19:01:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How Tax brackets and withholding work
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:02:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Identical symptoms, problems, events, and behaviors, etc. can be rooted in different causes. The best response changes dramatically depending on cause.
You can have three people rocking back and forth and crying. One just lost her husband and is in need of comfort, one is mentally ill and could benefit from certain medication, and one is autistic and should not be hugged unexpectedly, and for whom the same medication that stops identical behaviors in the mentally ill woman could be dangerous.
We tend to assume if we see an issue we've seen before, know one cause of, and know how to fix, that we understand the problem and can and should fix it. Sometimes we really ought to not do so, or if we need to do so, should take the time to be sure we know what the problem is and the consequences our solution could have if we're wrong.
Unless you are actually immobile there is ZERO reason to stop at the top of an escalator, the other side of a doorway, an intersection, anywhere there are other people. I do not care how confusing this subway station is; GET THE FUCK OUT OF THE WAY.
Siphyre · 1 points · Posted at 19:04:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That what you see of an opposing political party is likely the crazies and that the entire party should not be judged by their actions. Prejudice is real.
That true statistical predictions are probabilistic. After Trump won the election, there was a huge backlash against Nate Silver/538 because they were 'wrong' about the election results for giving Hillary a 67% chance of winning.
What people don't realize is that basically everyone else predicting the election gave her a 80-99% chance. Not only that, but even if someone's model is 100% perfect and explains all the variation in the data, there's still a chance that the less-likely thing will happen. A dice isn't 'wrong' when it rolls a six, even though there's only a 16.6% chance of that happening.
"Any man who must say 'I am the king' is not true king." For my money this translates to: your assessment of yourself will always be wrong, whether it be about personality, skill, or any other aspect of yourself. You'll always be more or less of what you think you are.
"Effect" vs. "affect". The effect of this misunderstanding is to complicate effective discourse. This adversely affects all of us. To effect change in this area, we must improve our grammar education. The affect of an engaged student is a joy to behold.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:05:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Probability vs possibility.
A roulette wheel has three colors. Red, black and green. Ten spins in a row is red. Which means the next one should be black! Bet on black! Wesley snipes! Passenger 57!
The reality is the probability is the same on every spin of the wheel and to plot a trend against it is specious.
Jtk317 · 1 points · Posted at 19:05:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This screenshot indicates that a great many people (aka Neo-Nazis) don't understand why America has been anti-Nazi since WWII. http://imgur.com/1cdHEap
I find people who need the money most have the worst understanding of the US income tax. There is never a time when working OT or taking a raise will cause you to make less money. I heard that when I was young and told "don't accept the raise if they offer you above $xx, that will push you into a higher bracket and you'll make less" - this is completely incorrect. Overtime may push you into a higher tax bracket but ONLY for the amount over the "line". So you'll still pay the same taxes on the amount you made in the lower bracket, and then you'll pay a little more for the amount over that (but still will have made more money, it's never a loss).
People that watch football bashing people for watching video games. You're literally watching someone else play a game in both cases.
"Dad walks into kids room, 'why don't you play the video game instead of watching someone else play it?' Goes and sits on the couch and watches football"
Can a 10 year old go join their favorite eSports team and play?
Yes, it's easier to just play a video game. It takes time to bring people together to play a physical game. It still takes effort to get a group of people together in the same room and play video games too.
Your equating a 10yr old boy hoping on a video game with anybody jumping into a professional sports game.
The players of the Professional sports spend years practicing physically to be prepared to compete on a professional level. For example, in the NFL these guys take hits as hard as what a small car could do at 30mph (at least)
I'm sure there are skills needed to play a video game at a professional level, but those skills are nowhere near as hard to obtain as professional sports players.
In less than a year I'm sure a 10yr old boy could play a video game at a professional level.
So if I were to take a 10yr old boy and "Joe Schmoe" and place them in their respective sports all of a sudden, I'd be willing to bet that the 10yr old boy would have a better chance of being able to hang in with the professionals. Joe Schmoe would probably end up in the hospital.
If you are convinced that a 10 year old can become a professional eSports player in under a year, then you're delusional.
A kid hopping on a video game to play is the same as someone calling up friends to play backyard football.
Also, you clearly do not know how good the professional eSports players are at their respective games. The 10 year old joining their league would be like the South Park episode where the Red Wings play the South Park Elementary kids.
The professional eSports players also spend years and countless hours practicing and prepping for their games and tournaments. In the case of say, League of Legends (was featured on ESPN once), there is a very strategic planning phase before the game even begins.
A 30 mph hit would be fast for what's possible in the NFL unless you're a wide receiver and you get lined up perfectly, it's not that fast.
Well, yeah. Because it's the incomplete equation under nearly all scenarios, as objects that bith, have mass yet aren't moving aren't what you're typically going to be measuring.
Xeerie · 1 points · Posted at 19:07:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think it's Bitcoin and the Blockchain technology behind it. While some people do not understand it, most smart make a big money.
The main trick is 90% of these 90% can't figure out most important thing: you do not need to understand how exactly Bitcoin works to buy it, to own it, to use it, and to make money with it.
Do you know how VISA or AE, or Western Union work? Do you know what software do they use?
The same for Bitcoin, all you need is a little bit of curiosity and basic math knowledges.
Science, the scientific method
Global warming
Evolution
Stars
Refrigerators
The Internal combustion engine
Computers
How to plug in a USB
The big bang theory
Gravity
Quantum mechanics
Magnets - how's that shit work
Electricity
Who invented the lightbulb (not Edison)
What makes the sky blue?
Condoms <- conjecture
Advertising
Politics
Algebra
Calculus
Doing taxes
Budgeting
Personal finance
I'm sure there's more, but those came to mind first. Really when you get right down to it we take a lot of our reality for granted, inventions people have made, information we're told to be true, or stuff we just don't think about. Not that it's a bad thing, not everyone needs to know how to build a toaster.
People only value you as much as you value yourself. If you walk around with the demeanor of someone who is worthy of respect, people will show you that respect.
However, if you behave like you need validation, are subservient or aren't aware of your own self worth, people pick up on that and treat you accordingly.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:07:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Logic...
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:07:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The Middle East. I am Middle Eastern and we have so many little nuances of loyalty, hate and history that I don't even know what is going on.
A large part of me thinks that the ME and FL have the same problem. It's hard to act rationally when your brain is simmering at 120 degrees. FL has meth and opioids, you have ISIS, which are equally destructive.
Every day I see people merge without looking --part of me wishes I had such faith in destiny--but more of me wonders how soon these asshats will kill someone.
Eating doesn't make you fat. Sugar, carbs etc. don't make you fat.
The fact that you're not moving your ass and your only "exercise" is these three steps from your door into your car (in the morning, and then later when you come home) every day makes you fat.
This is probably going to get buried but confirmation bias is something we all fall victim to every day. It can help us alot but can also hold us back.
That if you don't agree with A, it doesn't mean you automatically agree with B.
Example: If I don't agree with Trump it doesn't mean I do agree with Democrats. Or, if I am not a fan of Black Lives Matter it doesn't automatically mean that I am a racist.
Constantly complaining about an issue doesn't help anyone fix the issue. It is just noise. If you don't have anything to contribute to the solution than let those that do work in peace.
That admitting you're wrong doesn't make you weak. It actually quells that fire of "Me vs them" and you start finding ways to reach a middle ground rather than "winning".
Logic. I'm not saying I'm fully fluent either, but it's striking the amount of people that don't understand simple logic. Every person on the planet should take a basic philosophy or a math logic course.
It's hard to expect everyone in the world to understand every law we have, every differing opinion, every culture, and how all of them relate and have related through history. But if we all understood how to critically think about these things, it would help immensely.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:10:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to have an argument
That you should listen at least as much as you talk, if not more.
That you should identify ONE point of contention and go back and forth with an open mind and an intent to reach consensus. Not bring up a different point of contention when you have nothing else to say
Evolution does not have an agenda. Change just happens and it survies and propigates or it doesn't. There is no mechanism for genetic change to happen with a pupose.
That pretty much the entire world is up for interpretation. Many people think their opinions are simply the way the world is. Im talking about things like their favorite color is the only favorite color someone could have, and everyone else is wrong
lashed1 · 1 points · Posted at 19:11:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Money is a strict barrier on my opportunities. So sick of the Facebook posts saying "instead of watching it on TV, go there!" Or bullshit about how being worldly is a good attribute.
Sorry, but the free cable I watch at the University I pay to attend with loans is very different from getting a passport, airfare, hotel, and food in another country. Also, I would lose even more money because I'd have to take time off work.
Moving out of my parents house is still impossible. I tried. Worked full time, attended college full time, and had my own house. Had to swallow my pride more than once and ask for money so I could eat/keep the power on. I also had no car payment, cellphone bill (I need a phone for work/contacting family), insurance, etc.
As a college professor no matter how many times we said every semester I get students to ask questions that are bolded on the syllabus. I have a total of 100 points in all my classes and students will still ask me regularly how much a 10 point project counts to their final grade.
but they can deny the sale completely. if you owe them money for something they HAVE to take it. but if nothing is owed yet they can just say, "yea no deal" and not even establish a transaction
That plain dumb luck and networking have more to do with your success in life than most people would readily admit. You can be smart, a hard worker, have a university degree and be healthy and still be unemployed.
any of the posts that get large amounts of upvotes should get large amounts of downvotes, since they are obviously understood by more than 10% of people. the submissions that only get one upvote win.
zacree · 1 points · Posted at 19:15:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You ARE traffic. You are not in it. The reason that you are stuck in one spot and not moving is because some selfish jerk cut someone off ten miles up and everyone slowed down and now you're stopped and considering cutting someone else off to save ten seconds on your commute. Be predicable. If you might miss your exit, miss it and take the next one.
No one cares if you're in charge, or if you're the boss at where you work, or how much you can impose yourself to inflate your ego. I'm in my late 20's and I come across people who are twice my age who are still trying to prove to everyone around them how great and smart they are. I lost my desire for approval in my early 20's, cause I've been through experiences that have shown me how capable I am. So I don't go to work (where I'm a manager) trying to show everyone how awesome I am at solving incredibly simple problems, and focus on running the store, while the other managers around me spend all their time trying to establish dominance and not running the store. So fucking stupid.
Okeano_ · 1 points · Posted at 19:15:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The definition of 90% apparently, according to the responses in this thread.
jh38654 · 1 points · Posted at 19:15:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Evolution: organisms do not intentionally evolve, and to go even farther, individuals don't evolve, populations evolve over generations. And let's not get started on the fact we did not come from monkeys, we evolved alongside monkeys.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:15:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not judging has bit me in the ass so many times. Could've avoided a lot of issues by being more judgemental.
Being violent towards people who don't agree with you will make them like you less. If you want people to be on your side, you have to treat them as humans and calmly explain your reasoning. Yelling at people and calling them names only makes them turn against you more.
That the weather isn't isolated to your state or area. Everyone seems to think that when a heatwave hits the country it is only in their small little area.
Individuals don't evolve, species do. And evolution doesn't happen with a goal, it happens randomly through mutations, and a very small fraction of those mutations provide any benefit wrt/ reproduction, which is the only reason they are preserved (minor oversimplification).
The difference between feminist theory and queer theory. This is even with academic circles it seems sometimes. Remember people, it's theory. It applies to many situations, not all.
Progressive tax brackets. I swear my brain bleeds every time I hear someone say be careful because if you make slightly more money you might get pushed into a higher tax bracket and THEN YOU'LL LOSE ALL YOUR MONIES!
ravn67 · 1 points · Posted at 19:16:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That the emergency room is the doctor's office for you and your 4 kids. Going to the ER for a runny nose and cough just makes it longer for people with real emergencies to be seen.
Why I park in 2 parking spaces. I don't want anyone to to scratch my DeLorean DMC-12.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:16:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
90% of the comment section are "yeah that's definitely NOT me updot" when reading comments.
But 90% of them don't understand they are actually acting like this
raydude · 1 points · Posted at 19:16:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's just as bad to marginalize, resent, and attack racists as it is for them to marginalize, resent and attack minorities.
The only way we can healthfully teach others to let go of their need to blame is to set an example by being loving, caring and compassionate toward them.
stevie7 · 1 points · Posted at 19:16:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In Colorado it seems to be merging lanes. People act as if they don't exist!!! So freakin frustrating.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:16:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well as a "republican" I feel like 90% of republicans don't understand that democrats also have guns and that if "shit hit the fan" those thoughts that many of them have that "we'll have the guns so it won't be a challenge" is entirely false, also stupid. Also that democrats aren't "the enemy" they're just people who think differently about certain social aspects. Personally I just want lower taxes, I could care less if a lesbian smokes weed and marries a girl, and planned parenthood should be a thing we all support. If two guys wanna hold hands, 🤷♀️ don't care. Just lower my taxes please.
rbrehm · 1 points · Posted at 19:16:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Freedom of speech means you have the right to say what you want and the US GOVERNMENT cannot silence you or punish you for it. It does NOT mean your employer, peers, constituents, the internet, or any private citizen, business, or institution must agree with, host, tolerate, or publicize your opinion.
Cpu46 · 1 points · Posted at 19:17:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
90% of the people I know don't seem to understand that a blank space in my schedule isn't an opening to include me in your plans.
It's a carefully calculated and strictly enforced vacation from the noise of the world. It's not a simple lack of activity, it's my precious agenda of nothing.
When you go to a bank for a loan, the bank doesn't actually give you money. No money transfers from the bank's funds to your account.
All that happens is the bank types some figures onto your account, and bingo, you have the loan. You, now, have to pay off that loan over time with a certain percentage on top.
The bank effectively makes money by loaning you literally nothing.
That global warming will make the planet wetter, not drier. People seem to equate "warming" with "dry weather", which on a planet whose surface is 70% water ain't gonna happen. Millions of people will happily boil a kettle of water, the water vapour will hit the cold window and turn to water, yet whenever it rains I'll inevitably hear complains like "I hope global warming happens soon, I don't like the rain".
No one ever changed their mind in the middle of an argument. You might be 100% correct, but the other person isn't going to suddenly stop and be like, you know what, you're right! It's just not going to happen. Practical explanations and personal life experience changes people. Not arguing.
Statistics, polling, and probability. (The irony of my response as a response to the title of the post is not lost on me).
Yes, you really can take a scientific poll of 1,000 people and essentially know what 300 million people think about a given topic.
When someone says there is a 60% chance of X happening, if X does not happen, that does not "prove them wrong."
If something has a 50% probability of occurring, your odds don't get better for the next try because it didn't happen last time. There's no such thing as being "due" (in a series of independent events).
Netcob · 1 points · Posted at 19:19:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In youtube comment sections: Basically everything. It's a fascinating place, where the most skilled commenters will misunderstand something on multiple levels at once. Others will reply, opposing the first commenter, but misunderstanding the issue in an entirely new way. It's an absolute wonderland of stupidity.
Spoffle · 1 points · Posted at 19:20:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The program called "design.exe" that automatically and instantly produces design work with only only a few words to describe what you want, doesn't actually exist and that design work takes time and effort.
The claims made on the labels of health and beauty products are mostly bullshit. They either use weasel words like "enhances" that imply a lot but mean virtually nothing or they boast of things that aren't really a big deal. One of my favorites: "Clinically proven to relieve skin dryness for 24 hours." Yep, that's what moisturizer does alright.
It's listed on WD-40 official website as a myth. They say that it's technically a lubricant, it's job is to clean things. For some tasks around the house, WD-40 offers the job of both cleaning and lubricating, but in the long term it will cause problems.
Why certain features can't be added to video games. Most of the time, it's because they are thinking like human players. AI behavior is a lot harder to alter, especially in the later stages of development. It can become a game of whack-a-mole, where you fix or add one thing, and it creates a bunch of human-exploitable things someplace else.
That our world is operated and controlled by about 8500 of the worlds most wealthy people and they have designed our entire world system so that nobody can ever get too far ahead and take the power back from them.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:21:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That science can't be wrong. Let me clarify: the ideas of science are constantly in flux and science questions itself continually. But if you understand that science is the methodical testing and presentation of facts, it isn't wrong. You can "believe" whatever you want, but you can't say that science is "wrong"
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:21:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Don't be a dick and people will do anything for you..
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:21:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
how many reddit users are on mobile
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:21:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Dads are parents too. Not just babysitters. Sick of people saying I'm "babysitting" when I take my child out in his pushchair, or if Mummy is out for a little while.
What about those people you hear about lifting things well beyond their capabilities in order to save someone's life, thanks to adrenaline. Would you say they gave 110 percent?
The environmental and economic impact eating meat and other animal products has on us. We tell our young ones to eat their (animal) protein and drink their (cow's) milk without putting a lot of thought into the foods and alternative possibilities. For example, from a recent study:
Oxford researchers found that, by 2050, food-related greenhouse gas emissions could account for half of the emissions the world can afford if global warming is to be limited to less than 2°C. Adopting global dietary guidelines would cut food-related emissions by 29%, vegetarian diets by 63%, and vegan diets by 70%.
Modelling the economic benefits of dietary change, changes to plant-based diets could produce savings of $700-$1,000 billion (US) per year on healthcare, unpaid informal care and lost working days. The value that society places on the reduced risk of dying could even be as high as 9-13% of global GDP, or $20-$30 trillion (US). In addition, the researchers found that the economic benefit of reduced greenhouse gas emissions from dietary changes could be as much as $570 billion (US).
Yelling and cursing at your customer service rep isn’t going to help you. We know you’re unhappy it’s not some great mystery. If you’re bill went up because your credits came off let me work with you to find a solution don’t just scream for a supervisor because you think it’ll help. I will go much more out of my way to help a nice customer than a screaming one. I’ll break rules to help a nice customer who legitimately asks how my day is going and will laugh with me about whatever craziness is going on. If you come at screaming about what a fucking idiot I am and how my company is slime filled shit sack I’m gonna sit back let you bitch and then transfer you to loyalty so they can make the same offers I was trying to.
that on game of thrones, each episode doesn't start right when the last episode left off, sometimes months go by... I see the GoT fast travel memes all too often.
"News" does not present an accurate picture of the world. Think of it as native advertising, propaganda if you will, intended to sell the public on wars, medical procedures, conceal various cures, etc. Advertising does not end when the "commercials" stop. Edit: This extends to the online information sphere as well. This should come as no surprise, but a shocking percentage of "users" (Reddit, YouTube, and otherwise) are paid PR agents. Much of the voting is simply bots.
hehenno · 1 points · Posted at 19:22:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You don’t have to stand in line for an hour before boarding a Ryanair flight anymore, because boarding passes have pre-assigned seats (it’s been this way for years now)
warpg8 · 1 points · Posted at 19:22:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Socialism/communism. Most people associate it directly with China and Russia, and very few people actually understand the core principles that Marx, Trotsky, and Lenin were teaching. Very few people understand that economic policy isn't separable from social policy, and very few people (particularly liberals) understand that identity politics is fundamentally self-defeating when analyzed through a Marxist lens.
huiuiui · 1 points · Posted at 19:23:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That we in the US Do not elect our president directly; instead we vote on who in the electoral college can place a vote representing that state's desire
A religious person doesn't need to logically prove anything to themselves. They separate reality from divinity. Using logic to denounce religion or vice versa is impossible because they are unrelated
That 3rd world countries are not responsible for your job losses, the people responsible are the CEOS and chairman of the boards of companies that are profit chasing that are responsible for the job losses. Don't blame Thailand, China, Vietnam, etc. for your manufacturing job losses, blame it on the capitalist/venturists who want to make a large profit.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:25:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Um, I'm a girl. That's fine if you want to call yourself a plant. All I pointed out is, is Animals are Sentient, plants are not. Animals want to live, plants don't physically have the capacity to think they want to live. I'm pretty much done with you, this is a moot point. You kill, eat and wear Animals, I don't.
No, you wouldn't believe how many people act like A. Holes when I even mention that I believe that All animals should have the right to live free from harm and death. I'm sorry, its just a really passionate topic for me. Sometimes I get really defensive because I hate All forms of animal abuse so much.
It's probably been mentioned, but...evolution.
(1) Evolution does not happen to individuals, it happens to populations.
(2) Evolution does not have a preset direction or "purpose". It is dictated by what traits work best for a species in a given environment. Random mutations in the gene pool can prove to be beneficial and increase the genetic fitness of an organism.
(3) Genetic fitness/survival of the fitness does not equate with physical traits necessarily.
Oh, and lately I've been seeing...free speech. Jesus H. Christ. It's like free speech this free speech that...the concept of free speech is waaay more limited than people think it is.
That if you had any social awareness and kept boasting/trying to show off on fb or being passive agressive you'd realise it just makes you look like a tool.
Entertaining an idea does not mean you believe it.
To use Charlottesville as an example I sort of understand the road that led to the rally. A bunch of people that felt alienated have been rallied by white nationalist ideology.
I think it's moronic but I try to understand how it all happened. Sometimes I fail sometimes I succeed but I always try.
Pass and get out of the passing lane, I don't care how much over the speed limit you are going, if there is someone behind you wanting to go faster you are creating traffic.
Food service in a busy restaurant. Yes it's easy to make your burger a nice medium in about 10 mins. No it's not at all easy to cook your burger and about 15 other all at different start times and temps the 3 salmon, 5 steaks, 2 chops and all that effing chicken, while at the same time trying to plate it all up in a manner good enough to feed your grandmother, all while the ticket machine is pumping away, your relief cook is hungover, the expo is freaking out and some server just dropped something for that table that came in 30 mins before you and now the rest of their food is fucked and dying because of whatever's all over the floor.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:27:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to drive. If the rules were actually followed and people paid attention, there would be way less traffic and accidents.
How nonprofits work. I see people criticize organizations that host fundraisers and pay decent salaries to their staff. It's cliche, but you do have to spend money to make money. And why wouldn't you want to pay for the most qualified staff if it'll help your mission?
That there is a difference between school led prayer and your kid praying in school. I hear some older folks say things like "they took away prayer in school!"
Wrong. Your kids can pray in school if they wish. The administration just can't force them to pray.
How to properly use the word "comprise." In fact I think it's been used improperly so often that it's now acceptable to just use it incorrectly - describing things as "comprised of."
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:28:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Cardio does not make you lose weight, it only helps building resistance.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:29:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Conservatives are not Nazis, but Nazis are fucking Nazis and calling them what they are isn't sensationalization when they're literally waving Nazi flags. Based on the fact that every story I've seen about the shit in Charlottesville has a million commenters saying that you can't just call every gathering of white conservatives a Nazi rally. Mitch McConnell is a white conservative, and not one that I particularly like. He is not a Nazi. There is a line, and there are too many fucking people on the wrong side of it.
Driving like an asshole because traffic sucks makes more traffic. Other people see you driving like an asshole and think it's okay. Then next time, they're in front of you causing you to be in traffic. And the cycle continues.
That doing a lot of exercise after eating a lot of pizza (constantly) doesn't block the pizza and all of the sudden you're healthy.
x3nodox · 1 points · Posted at 19:29:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Everything is fucking complicated. "Why don't we just switch to single payer healthcare?", "Why don't all cars have that design if it's so good?", "Why can't you just make a way faster computer now if you're going to do it in 2 years anyway?"
Cause it's hard. It's hard for a lot of reasons. The process of doing anything meaningful is hard. The implications in near and long term can be dramatically different for dramatically different reasons that are hugely affected by finicky little details.
If you think you have the solution to a big world problem and you haven't spent at least 5 full years really thinking about it, you don't. At all. Because shit is complicated and no one seems to appreciate that.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:29:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How King Crimson works! It's so easy! Diavolo sees 10 seconds into the future, then everyone essentially loses consciousness and performs the actions Diavolo saw they were going to do. Diavolo can move freely during this time however. This is why actions seem to have no cause.
That it takes everyone to keep things clean. Just because you didn't make the mess, doesn't mean you don't have to clean it up. The person who left it there obviously isn't going to clean that shit up, and if no one picks it up it will sit there on the side of the rode or trail or what have you and look gross.
That if you make more money (in the US) you pay more income tax on the part of your money over the previous limit, not on all the money. The brackets apply to each chunk of income that fits into that bucket.
What a web developer actually does. Explaining the difference between a designer & developer and how the code behind a website works to my parents and friends is a nightmare.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:30:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
kauefr · 1 points · Posted at 19:31:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Statistics.
Darneus · 1 points · Posted at 19:31:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Fundamental basics about law. It always surprises me how loud people can be about change and then not realize how hard it is to actually make that change from a legal standpoint.
That there is no letter 'a' in the past tense of the verb "to lead". It's "led". "Lead" is a metal. "Led" is the past tense of "lead". Please get that fucking straight.
Deductibles. You get insurance on something. Your car, your health, your cell phone. You pay a deductible when something happens. Don't complain about paying $125 because you shattered your phone screen when if you didn't have insurance it would be $800 for a new phone.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:32:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How encryption works on the internet. I've had actual computer programmers tell me about how it's worthless because internet service providers can "just use the keys you send" after they log them over the wire.
ss79 · 1 points · Posted at 19:32:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Thermostats. Turning them down doesn't make it get cold faster. It simply means it will keep getting colder and colder until it is uncomfortable. It works the same when you raise them.
The theory of evolution. It doesn't postulate that Species B evolved from Species A, but that Species B and Species A descended from the same COMMON ANCESTOR.
rokd · 1 points · Posted at 19:32:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It takes less time to do things the right way, then to do that thing wrong and have to fix it.
90% of everything outside their very specific areas of interest or work. It is a big big world out there and the more we learn the more complex we find it to be. We are all specialists now - if you don't know that your ignorant of 99% of what there is to know, than that means your just a hair more ignorant those cursed to know exactly how much they don't know and will never be able to learn.
just like how someone who's overweight doesn't wanna hear that you think they're overweight, someone who's underweight also doesn't wanna hear that you think they're underweight. MIND BOGGLING! i know
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:33:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just hit the Windows key and type out the name to access your shit. I work a computer help desk, and the program isn't gone just because you can't find the shortcut anymore.
Pucksy · 1 points · Posted at 19:33:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm waayy too late, but definitely thermostats.. Setting the cars climate control very cold does not make it comfortable faster.
Papal infallibility. 99 % of people have it wrong. It basically means when the bishops and the Pope agree on a church teaching and say it is right, than the church follows that teaching.
erranw · 1 points · Posted at 19:34:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
While driving you notice lanes merging ahead due to an accident, construction, etc.... You're in the lane that is ending. You must drive all the way to the merge point then zipper in. Anything else is just chaos.
Merger point doesn't mean wait until the absolute last sec though
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:34:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Most people have a terrible understanding of fallacious logic. It does help a lot to see through arguments that don't make sense or are plain bullshit and it helps to explain how/why they're wrong.
People on political left and right have exactly the same psychology, types of personalities, attitudes; political beliefs are largely a function of where you grew up and our tendency to accept/reject the society around you. The far left and far right have more common with one another than they do the moderates on their own side.
That the left lane is for passing. Stop driving slow in it. Why does everyone do this?!
alltim · 1 points · Posted at 19:35:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Accelerating technological change. Consider the difference between driving at a constant speed and driving with the gas pedal pushed all the way to the floor and keeping it there. Many forms of technology have relatively short times required to double the level of change. For example, in the US last year the total solar energy capacity doubled in a single year. So, it only took one year to raise the total level as much as the total of all of the preceding decades since the invention of the solar cell in 1941. Moreover, the total solar capacity will double again over the next year and continue to double year after year in the foreseeable future. We see similar accelerating changes in a wide array of technologies including 3D printing, robotics, realistic animation and artificial intelligence, to name a few of the more significant fields of technologies destined to alter our future.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:35:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A progressive tax system. I use to be in public accounting and would have people tell me they stopped working for the year because they think if they make $1 then they will go into the next tax bracket and all their earning would be taxed the new level's percentage.
danikov · 1 points · Posted at 19:36:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Quantum entanglement.
Don't make me pretend to understand it fully. I do know that it's more correlation than causation, which means that it kills dead all the sci-fi that tries to use it as a substrate for FTL communication (although it is viable for encryption), but the details are difficult for career physicists to wrestle with, let alone your average person.
btao · 1 points · Posted at 19:54:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It takes some serious math-fu to even grasp the theory behind it all, but I'd wager most only get the empirical side of what can be demonstrated. Truly one of the greatest phenomenons out there.
This is a very common phenomenon in fencing: most people are right handed, so they typically learn how to fence against a right handed opponent.
When a left handed opponent shows up, suddenly the enemy's sword is on the wrong side and it's very confusing.
Funnily enough, this problem often appears for lefties as well, who (for much the same reason) usually learn to fence against right handers and then are completely confused upon meeting a fellow southpaw.
Prank videos and 'pranks gone wrong' are pretty much all BS but still people will sit there sharing, retweeting going 'oh my gahhd'. Im glad that drivvel doesn't make an appearance on reddit too often
How HOAs work, who they're meant to benefit (hint: not homeowners), who they actually benefit (hint: again, not homeowners), how they are formed & dissolved, what rights (not many) and obligations (too many) they give homeowners and other parties (what- you didn't know there were other parties involved?), and so on.
All you ever see are completely uninformed people who either say "HOAs are the devil" or "HOAs are great." Absolutely no understanding of the principles and legalities involved. Luckily, there are lots of people willing to take advantage of both kinds of idiots' willful ignorance.
Four hours with google and a trip to your local library, followed by looking up the CC&Rs on your property's deed will fucking open your eyes, man. The information is trivially easy to find, yet people don't seem to want it.
But hey, HOAs are the devil. Or the greatest thing ever. I guess.
aeryk71 · 1 points · Posted at 19:36:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Late to the party here, but every time I hear somebody say "such and such food (usually meat) has ANTIBIOTICS in it", a part of me dies on the inside.
Nothing you buy at the grocery store has antibiotics in it, unless you're buying antibiotics. All animals, even those fed antibiotics during their lives, are required to go through a withdrawal period before butchering, so that the antibiotic residue can leave their body. It is highly illegal to sell antibiotic tainted food, and everything gets tested for it--usually more than once. If there was any remote trace of antibiotic found in the product, it would be destroyed, the producer could face serious penalties, and it would never come close to a grocery store shelf.
Even though the regular feeding of antibiotics to animals has become a HUGE problem with antibiotic resistance/superbugs, nothing you eat has any trace of antibiotics in it (unless you bought it directly from a very sketchy source).
Try arguing that these people aren't being hateful — they're just being selfish.
I currently, through a twist of fate, live about two hours from where I grew up. The area I live in, now, we colloquially refer to as "satan's taint". When people learn I grew up near here, they frequently ask, "what did you think of this place before you moved here?" which I invariably answer with "I didn't think of this place before I moved here".
The people lobbying for tax cuts don't necessarily hate the poor. They probably just don't care. The people against the ACA don't necessarily hate the people that will die without medical attention. They probably just don't care. The people wanting stronger immigration control don't necessarily hate brown people. They probably just don't care.
And when your friends as how anyone could not care, well. That's sort of what selfishness is, mate. Everyone's some level of selfish. I'm typing on Reddit right now when, really, I ought to be actively working in AI research or doing everything in my power to bring about social reform. I'm being lazy, which is selfish.
Just consider for a moment that some people are more selfish than you (or less so, and they ask questions like "how can you eat meat?"). They have different values.
Wyrdly · 1 points · Posted at 19:37:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you're thinking "that's bullshit I totally know what science is" - take a swing at what a null hypothesis is and why it's inherent to the scientific method.
No googling.
che_sac · 1 points · Posted at 19:38:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just because there IS a back room in the store, doesn't mean there is more of the item you're looking for back there. At least 75% of what's even in the store is already on shelves.
Ritzyb · 1 points · Posted at 19:38:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Every house is built the same. WRONG! As a custom framing carpenter, and business owner, I can tell you this is not the case.
Building to code does not dictate if a home is built right, it also doesn't stop drywall from cracking, air from leaking through your walls, walls being straight, or rooms (kitchens/bathrooms) to be built right.
People always whine that new houses aren't built like they used to be. This is correct: they have much more engineering and thought put into design, however the wrong builder can wreck any plan.
Also: If your builder builds more then 50 homes a year, be very careful. They almost never have a real relationship with any of there trades, they pick the cheapest guys every time, and cut costs to the point of guys having no choice but to build garbage to pay rent.
You get what you pay for, and if it's $30,000 cheaper then another builder find out why! Most have things in the fine print that would blow your mind.
The majority of life is SEARCH and discovery! The whole point of life is that it's not easy, convenient or fast but that one must risk, invest time, fail and keep trying or otherwise you might as well be dead.
The definition of a medical emergency. 90% of visits to the ER departments all over the world are things that could be managed in a scheduled medical consult. Its a waste of resources, its not cost effective to the patient or the medical staff, and generates a huge overload to ER departments using up resources that could be directed to actual medical emergencies.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:39:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That if the average of some sample is bigger than the average of some other sample, that doesn't mean every item in the first sample is bigger than every item in the second sample.
To see vast numbers of people not understanding this, just look at conservative writings on climate change and liberal writings on the Google diversity memo.
Logic. People seem to believe because they have conviction and unwavering belief in something that it makes them right. That's not how that works but good luck telling them that.
Thermostats. Setting the AC to 64 (16C) does not make your house colder faster. Similarly, setting your thermostat to 80 (25C) does not warm your house any faster. Both just mean you are going to waste energy until you become uncomfortable.
drolgin · 1 points · Posted at 19:41:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Compound interest. Hi, housing bubble. Hi, short term loans. Hi, people living so far beyond their means it's not even funny.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:41:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
reports by weather men/ladies... when they say it's a 60% chance of rain that means that 60% of their viewing area will likely experience the phenomenon we call weather, not that it is 60% likely to rain on you...
That freedom of speech only protects you from the government interceding on what you say. Any individual or corporation can totally ask you to stop speaking, fire you for what you say, kick you off their premises, etc
Interest. If you miss a payment and/or are late then interest starts accruing daily until the balance you were supposed to pay and the balance ahead of it are paid off. Usually if you're late and have a good payment history then someone can waive the late fee and suppress interest so it stops accruing.
When you buy an iDevice, you're not automatically giving them your data to use how they want. Apple has given us reason to believe they aren't interested in giving their users' data to third parties. They've also refused to assist the government in retrieving user data from their devices.
That's what I mean.
jerwrig · 1 points · Posted at 19:42:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you make money, you're going to pay some taxes. There's no magical deduction to keep you from paying something!
Din_Den · 1 points · Posted at 19:42:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to properly use a fucking turn signal. You are supposed to use it approximately 2-3 seconds before braking, so as to give warning to someone who may be behind you that you are about to turn. It is not to be used AS YOU ARE TURNING. It offers no purpose if it is being used too late.
This is my commute, every damn day. Stuck on the highway off-ramp for 10 minutes because the fools at the bottom don't understand the massive continuous lane sign and wait to merge onto the busy street, with a wide open lane directly in front of them.
Grocery carts should be driven exactly like cars. Follow the same goddamn rules.
Don't pull out into traffic, don't drive to the left when there's only enough room for two lanes, and when there's four (like at the front of the store) its just like the interstate. the lane to the left is for passing.
You wouldn't stop to talk to your friends in the middle of a highway, you wouldn't pull a u turn in the middle of the road, and you wouldn't drive in oncoming traffic, so stop doing it at the grocery store for fucks sake.
Example: Janet won't stop talking about her grandfather's uncle's cousin who just took an 2lb shit and had to get his rectum stitched back together but you've been inching closer and closer to the door for the past 30 minutes trying not to be rude.
CPR. It is not magic, though TV and movies would have you believe otherwise.
Pulling someone back from the dead and having them stay with us, even more so, without brain damage, heart damage, and/or broken ribs is remarkable...because it's NOT the norm.
And drowning. Yes, there is absolutely a higher probability of pulling someone back from death with CPR, but the 2-10minute rules still applies. Unless you see them drown and pull them out very quickly, expect brain damage.
Swiping iPhone apps out of the multitasking tray will not give your phone superpowers or extra battery life or prevent the apps from running in the background.
maroger · 1 points · Posted at 19:45:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to take control of their own health. Recently went to a large music festival and 99.9% of the offerings were fat-laden fried junk and beer. The only thing that was close to healthy was bottled water. Also endlessly hearing relatives and friends complain about the side effects of drugs given to them with little explanation- yet they freely take them without questioning the doctor or- at the very least- getting a second opinion.
Pulling out in front of/changing lanes in front of a semi and then braking, especially in heavy traffic, will probably end up with you being severely injured.
Taxes. What they're meant for, what they do, how they're collected, when they're owed, proportional taxes, the way their own taxes work, and effective tax rates. It's not even worth trying to discuss tax with people because they don't have the fundamental understanding of the system down in the first place.
Late to the party so not sure if this has been posted, but basically the idea that things are the way people think they should be, even if presented with evidence that they are, in fact, the way they are.
Example: Motorcycle lane splitting in California. I've seen so many videos about people getting pissed about this/passive-aggressively/aggressive-aggressively showing their distaste by disregarding the fact that it's 100% legal to do so and acting as if it isn't, because they think it shouldn't be.
Its like, you see hundreds of people abiding by the fact that at any moment a bike could come up right alongside them on the dotted line, and even making room for bikers clear in the knowledge that, whether they like it or not, lane splitting is legal and they'd be better off just dealing with that fact than winning some petty victory based on their perceived superiority over what they consider a dangerous and stupid law(or lack thereof, depending on how it's written).
The other huge one like this is being recorded in public. I've seen so many people try to deny permission to be recorded, and I rarely ever hear people give the actual reason it's legal to continue anyway. It makes me want to bend space and time just so I can shout it at the top of my lungs.
There's a concept known as "reasonable expectation of privacy". If you are in a place where you have a reasonable expectation of privacy, you are well within your rights to deny permission to someone recording you. If, however, you have no reasonable expectation of privacy, then the person recording you has every right to deny your request that they stop recording you, and it doesn't matter who you are.
Tax brackets. You still take home more money from a raise that bumps you into the next tax bracket! I can't believe how many people think they should turn down raises or do less OT because they think they'll end up with less after tax.
Tje199 · 1 points · Posted at 19:48:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Bit different, but how mechanics get paid.
We're paid on a flat rate or piece work system, so we do not get paid hourly, we don't get paid salary. We're paid a certain amount for each specific little job, and that's it, regardless of how long it takes. Plus side is if you bust your ass you can make more than 8 hours of pay in an 8 hour day. Downside is you can get paid nothing despite being at work for 8 hours, or in some cases get paid less than 8 even if you spend all day actually doing work.
Jaereth · 1 points · Posted at 19:48:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Your body can only use so much of any one substance at a given time. You poop/pee the rest out that it can't handle in that time frame.
If you have a lean steak salad for lunch, you probably don't need to down 500 grams of protein powder after you work out at the gym. Likewise, if you have a fresh veg salad and some broccoli for dinner, you don't need your super juice or capsules some lady on Facebook sold you. You already are good.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:48:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Cabling. There's a huge misconception on both sides about whether better electrical cables matter. Whether you believe they do or not is a bell curve. The consensus on Reddit is that a cable is just a cable - it works or it doesn't.
The answer isn't that it does or doesn't matter. It's that it can matter. It usually doesn't.
These aren't usually given by the manufacturer, but information that'd matter most on an analog cable would be impedance and attenuation. You want impedance to match at every step of the signal path, from source, media, and destination. You want attenuation to be as low as possible - it is measured in magnitude over frequency. A bad analog cable can give you somewhat bad color balance on video and unintended frequency balance on audio.
For digital cables, the main thing to look for is bit error rate. I've factually had a bad optical cable give me crackling on an audio DAC. A lot of it can depend on how good the signal is as well - my computer motherboard can send a good USB signal well over the minimum USB spec.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:48:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to do one frame links
btao · 1 points · Posted at 19:48:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The perspective of scale in the Universe.
Time, distance, energy, mass.... our single perspective cannot comprehend these things in other places of our universe.
"Resizing an image." You've got to hold the corner and resize it diagonally, it's that simple. Else you mess up the aspect ratio and it pains me so much seeing disproportionate images.
Not everyone thinks like you do. Everyone is aware of the right brain/left brain theory where some people are more creative minded and others more analytical. Added with everyone's own life experiences, you should never expect that someone will leap to the same conclusions as you. Everyone's "common sense" is a little bit different, so explaining things thouroughly to others can really go a long ways, especially when job training.
Psychologists are not wizards who can manipulate you into thinking or behaving a certain way. We also are not clairvoyant. No, I can't just tell what you're thinking. But yes, I am "using psychology" on you, because every single person does every single day. That's the whole point of the science: understand the ways in which people think, behave, and interact with eachother.
Also, bullshit facebook pages like The Bright Side are absolutely not accurate in their descriptions of anything psychological, and you SHOULD NOT USE THEM FOR ADVICE ON MENTAL ILLNESS PLEASE!!!!
New Mexico is in the United States. Its the state between Texas and Arizona. Every time i go somewhere and tell people im from New Mexico, people complement me on how well I speak English. Also they ask why a white guy would live in Mexico.
The customer service representative has very little to do with the problem you're having so you shouldn't be so ready to take your anger out on them.
IIngwaz · 1 points · Posted at 19:50:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not poluting. Smoking, using cars l, littering the smallest thing. People think "its just this time" but dont think millions have said that as well. More than once
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:50:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Take your lane when turning. It helps traffic move more smoothly.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:50:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You can survive without knowing the latest global tragedies, political slapfighting and celebrity gossip. As a matter of fact some would say that life is better.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:50:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
communism is not when the government controls everything.
Jesus, I work with an old beligerent bastard who will purposely criticize his coworkers, but when we start criticizing the crap he screws up he just starts repeating everything as loud as possible.
From a United States stand point.... THE LEFT LANE IS FOR PASSING. NOT THE "FAST LANE". NOT THE FUCKING SPEED LIMIT. PASSING. Few things put me into a boiling rage more than having someone doing the exact same speed as me to my left when I need to move over or pass someone....
Things are rarely black and white. Just because I don't agree with...like... Dare doesn't mean I think it's okay for kids to try heroin.
And sometimes I ask asshole questions because it's important to explore the perspective of all sides to understand why a seemingly rational person might maintain it.
Also sometimes the answer comes with shitty consequences but that doesn't stop it from being the answer.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:52:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Inflation - I'm so tired of hearing people talk about how great it is that the minimum wage is increasing, and they seemingly can't understand how it's actually killing local businesses and making our dollar worth less in the global economy.
Increasing minimum wage is a tiny blip compared with dealing the American dollar. Our currency is worth far less than 10 years ago. The public doesn't watch forex prices, so they are really manipulated by political parties who actually do not care about them, only their contributors.
The reason Bikers are so angry all the time, is because you keep fucking with our momentum to move an inch in your vehicle that moves 30 miles and hour. Just fucking wait.
How to figure out car payments. You can't get a 72 month loan on a $72,000 vehicle and honestly expect a $300 payment. But people come in all the time wanting that exact thing
imkaush · 1 points · Posted at 19:54:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Probability. People assume something with a 90% chance of happening will always happen and are outraged when it doesn't and will often say the prediction was wrong.
Not everyone is created equal. There really are differences between the genders. There really are differences between ethnicities. That isn't good or bad, but it is a harsh reality even if some people don't like it. But everyone deserves the same equal rights.
When a statistic is shown, some people immediately dismiss it because they don't fit the description of the statistic. What they don't understand is that they add to the statistic; the statistic does not conform to them. So if a study says Asians tend to have dry earwax and my mom doesn't, then she adds to to the statistic of Asians who have wet earwax.
When a photojournalist is documenting an event -- be it a war, a protest in Charlottesville, or a high school football game -- they have an ethical, professional, and moral obligation to try to tell the whole story. And sometimes that includes taking photos of injured or deceased people.
Oftentimes bystanders, in the heat of the moment, get upset when photojournalists start taking photos of injured or deceased people. I understand why they have this reaction, but in a more perfect world, professional journalists would be given the benefit of the doubt that they are approaching the scene ethically, morally, and with a humanistic heart and eye.
(Of course, there's a right way and a wrong way for photojournalists to take pictures at these types of scenes. Being as unobtrusive as possible is usually best. Give first responders the space they need. The National Press Photographers Association code of ethics states: "Treat all subjects with respect and dignity. Give special consideration to vulnerable subjects and compassion to victims of crime or tragedy. Intrude on private moments of grief only when the public has an overriding and justifiable need to see." (source: https://nppa.org/code_of_ethics))
Just because a photojournalist takes a photo of a tragic scene, that doesn't mean the photo will get published. Professional photojournalism doesn't begin and end when the photographer makes a photo of a tragic scene. There are later rounds of professional editorial judgement that come into play. Picture editors often think about how best to display the photo in a print or digital news outlet. MANY times, this means deciding not to publish particularly gruesome photos. Many publications have a "breakfast test" -- if a reader wouldn't be able to finish their breakfast when they're viewing a particular news photo, it probably doesn't make sense to publish it. You want readers to engage with a photo and story and the ideas and topics contained within, but you dont want readers to reflexively turn away because the content is too gruesome, sensationalized, or shocking.
Please respect the professionalism of photojournalists when you see them working -- whether it's at a public protest, the scene of a car crash, or an injury on a sports field. Give them the benefit of the doubt in the moment. If they're wrong, there are mechanisms down the line to register your disagreement: a letter to the editor, an op-ed or guest column, a phone call to the editor, a phone call or email to the photographer, etc.
sturmen · 1 points · Posted at 19:55:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
99.999999% of the life experience of our fellow human beings.
I've been trying to explain what ironic actually means to my gf for 3 years... she has only once used it correctly, but it's a fun game now we play where she thinks she's using it correctly and she is never right haha.
That people from Mexico don't risk their lives getting over the border because they're just too lazy to fill out some papers. "Just come legally!" is a joke. There usually isn't a legal route for them.
marginal tax rates. If your federal tax bracket is 28%, you don't pay 28% on all your income, only the income above a certain amount, below that amount, you pay the lower bracket rates.
Calling someone a hypocrite doesn't make them wrong when comes to stating facts, it just makes them an asshole. If a pedo rapist says that raping children is wrong are you now justified in doing what he does because he doesn't practice what he preaches? Fuck no. So, why does it seem like everyone is trying to avoid actually addressing arguments with this shitty counterargument. In debate, point's need to stand on it's own merit for it to be true, not the content of the speaker's personality.
Mental illness, people can be mad or unhappy or just can't see the world as most other do. People hide it because they don't value themselves enough to bother others or are too prideful to seek attention or help. And most importantly they feel all these emotions for no real reason and for unknown periods of time because they might be feeling it all the time and only show it sometimes.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:56:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That the news isn't an unbiased information source.
FoRad · 1 points · Posted at 19:56:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Food safety in line cooking and handling ready to eat foods. The customer might be happy with quick service, but they will be happier that they didn't have to spend 6 hours on a toilet.
Only stay in the far left lane if you're passing or driving fast. It's unacceptable to drive 70 in the left lane. No matter what YOU think is right/wrong.
Tax free weekend before school starts is a joke. You only save $7 per $100 spent here and people buy things they wouldn't normally buy because they assume they are saving a ton.
just because someone is more upset or more angry, doesn't mean their story is more valid. Listen to both sides and make a judgement based on overlapping facts rather than a single narrative.
How data are collected and statistics calculated has a huge effect on what they mean. If you forget that you can come to stupid conclusions like thinking giving soldiers helmets causes head injuries.
How about, "A cultural convention that's familiar and comfortable to you isn't an actual fact?"
I'm seeing a lot of comments about pet peeves where there's no objective "fact" not to "understand," just someone who doesn't get why everybody else wasn't raised the same as them. Doesn't work that way.
jedberg · 1 points · Posted at 19:58:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
P values. Most scientific articles are crap with bad statistics.
You cannot fully be against racism/discrimination if you are only against it when it applies to yourself. You can't turn around and defend yourself against racism by generalizing another entire group of people the same way they do to you. If you do that, you are no better than they are
hperrin · 1 points · Posted at 19:59:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The observer effect in quantum physics has nothing to do with any person looking at an experiment. It has to do with measuring the experiment. In order to measure an experiment, your measurement device has to interact with it, changing the outcome, and that's what is meant by "observer". As much as Deepak Chopra wants to believe, it has nothing to do with a conscious being looking at it.
That the state is an immoral institution and that we would be better off with less of it, even without it at all. That the ends do not justify the means and the ends of the government isn't even that great. That taxation is theft, modern day slavery.
The theory of relativity. I watched a theory of relativity for kids video on youtube and couldnt understand it. It finally clicked in my head and when it did it really made me appreciate how smart he was even more.
Basically anything to do with probability / statistics
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:59:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That "correlation doesn't equal causation" is not some magic wand that can be waved at any scientific study to dismiss its findings. Its applicability is actually very limited.
Also, reporting on correlations between variables is a perfectly legitimate pursuit in science.
The way the weather and climate work. We can take that a step further and say over 90% of people out there probably don't understand science very well at all. It's really easy to live in a bubble and just assume others understand the way the world works if you do but we see it time and time again with what people believe or how they talk or whatever that they really have no idea about the natural world at large beyond what their immediate senses (or religion, or politicians, etc) tell them. Not sure if I should be sad about that or just accept that throughout history the percentage of ignorance has probably been much higher than that and we're maybe making progress.
That looking down on people does not make you better.
So many comments on videos that demonstrate how, for instance, many people are racist, are "Yeah this [insert demographic here] are all really racist.
r/leagueoflegends is flooded with messages along the lines of "Koreans are all so toxic and stupid" after a Korean pro got backlash for making a mild remark.
Reenky · 1 points · Posted at 20:03:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Time. Specifically how long it takes to get somewhere or there and back. I feel like sometimes I'm the only one who realizes that when I have to run up town, which is only a couple miles away, between actually getting in the vehicle, driving through traffic and getting back, it will always take longer than most seem to give themselves time for.
a 500 calorific defecit a day DOES NOT equal 1lb of fat a week. This is based off the average 2500 calories a day that is drilled into us from a young age. If you want to lose weight, take 20% of your Total Daily Energy Expenditure (TDEE).
If anyone is seriously looking to lose weight, inbox me and I am happy to help out for free.
bERt0r · 1 points · Posted at 20:08:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
JVNT · 1 points · Posted at 20:04:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That spraying three bottles of perfume on yourself to hide that fact that you stink, doesn't hide the fact that you stink. It just makes it worse and makes everyone who has to be within a mile of your smelly ass hate you.
A strong currency isn't always a good thing. If the currency is too strong, exports will decrease lowering the GDP of your country. There is a balance to currency.
NY2IRAQ · 1 points · Posted at 20:04:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
dikbat · 1 points · Posted at 20:05:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How Rotten Tomatoes works. You regularly hear the complaint that a particular movie with a very low score is "bad, but not that bad" (and the reverse, too). I watch Collider's Youtube channel sometimes and even these people who work in the industry will make that sort of comment. Sometimes even while giving the movie a negative review, IE doing the thing that created the low RT score.
All a low RT score means is that there's a near-consensus that the movie is bad, not that there's a consensus that it's the worst movie ever. If you think The Circle is bad but better than "15%", it's possible that every critic who negatively reviewed it agrees with you. The same is true of high scores. It makes no sense to say that Wonder Woman is good and then in the next breath complain that its RT score is inflated.
How to take a napkin out of a napkin holder. not reaching back to grab 80 at once and pulling them out in a smashed stack. Just take the folded end of the one in the front and tug. Comes out just like a Kleenex. Super easy. Not rocket science.
Getting upset at things out of your control won't make the situation better the majority of the time.
Someone cut you off while driving? Getting overly upset about that person might ruin a significant part of your day, while the driver in the car that cut you off might not even know they did anything wrong and just go about their day regularly. In those situations getting pissed off only affects you and will make you even more upset.
I see things like this happen way too often with my peers. Making a huge deal out of something so small won't make it better!
Life's 10% what happens and 90% how you react to it.
Merging onto a highway. The majority of traffic is people not merging correctly. And how to use the passing lane.
Ever seen a big backup on the highway where there is no construction or accident? Notice how these slowdowns are where the on/off ramps are?
The only obstical on the highway is other cars, If there's no construction or accident restrictions. That means of there is traffic it must be due to people driving in a way to cause traffic i.e driving show in the passing lane, and merging to slow so the whole highway has to brake for you.
If you see something that needs done, do it - end of story.
A common work issue, each shift is responsible for taking out their own trash. Reasonable enough. However, if my shift forgets, or doesn't get to it, or had a huge emergency, we forget.
They will pull out the trash, stick a giant note on it that says, "EVE SHIFT TRASH," and let it sit there. For sixteen hours.
I work in a nursing home on an alzheimers/dementia unit. 80% of our trash are soiled adult diapers, and the other 20% is uneaten food. Which is a major health hazard, and if state were to walk in, it would be a HUGE tag on the facility as a whole. According to the state, if it's found on Day shift, Day shift will be in trouble and take that punishment. It's our responsibility, but when a resident pulls the firm alarm at 10PM, things like, taking out the trash become the last thing on our list.
Parking on the sensors at traffic lights. Parking on the second sensor makes the traffic computer think that there are three cars waiting for the light. It's useful for turning left across traffic, not much else.
That how people live their private lives very rarely should ever concern you. Unless they are actively doing something to infringe on your life it really doesn't and shouldn't matter to you.
If she wants to post risqué pictures of herself, let her. If he's gay, oh no! If they wanna do live slovenly let them. If someone has no interest in being a health freak, shoot.
That a voting system where you supposedly vote for your favorite candidate, usually results in you voting for your second-least-favorite candidate. You can tell this is happening when people tell you "don't waste your vote."
Not standing directly next to the baggage carousel when waiting for your bag.
Its not going to come faster because you stand there, and youre being a huge dick to others trying to grab their stuff. When you see your bag you walk up to it. Dont be so entitled you believe its your right to stand there so you dont have to walk 4 extra steps.
Plus people walk into each other when they grab their 50kg overweight luggage and cant lift it off the belt
The electoral college system. It's like just accepted but I think a lot of people just don't understand it. I don't like it, but it's what we have and we can't really replace it right now.
as a nurse.... sorry if don't know about every med and tx in the book. your dad is here for a total knee replacement, sorry I can't answer questions about his brain tumor treatment.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:34:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The US tax brackets. Don't turn down a job because it puts you in a higher tax bracket. Only the income that falls in that bracket is taxed at that rate. i.e. if you hit the next bracket at 50k and that new job pays 52 only the 2k will be taxed at the higher rate.
That Martin Shkreli did what he did to screw over insurance companies, not people with HIV.
texempt · 1 points · Posted at 20:42:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Anxiety and depression are normal human emotions. Problems don't arise from feeling these emotions, but rather from an inability to effectively cope with them.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:46:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
One's constitutional rights are not eligible for suspension just because you do not like a certain group of people or an organization. They cannot be turned on and off depending on the issue and your personal stance on it, either.
The fact that people immediately want to throw the constitution away because they hear that somebody is accused of a particularly heinous act, or because they believe that X policy is evil, or whatever it may be, are the best examples of why we have a Constitution in the first place. If you want to pick and choose when to apply it, then it is meaningless amd serves no purpose to begin with.
The earth is not a perfect habitat for humans. We're well adapted to run and have technology to make up for our shortcomings. That said, if I randomly picked a place to leave you naked anywhere on the planet; in something like 80% of those random places you'd be dead in under an hour.
I feel like 80% is a low ballpark here too. Google says 3% of the landmass is city. Only 29% is even LAND. 12% of that is permanent snow. 33% of it is desert. Thats....13% left of the land that isnt covered in snow or desert. Annnd 7% of that is jungle. Good luck there lol so 6% chance the random place wont: drown you, fry you, freeze you or eat you probably.
That when someone is having an anxiety attack, repetitively telling them to calm down or breathe does NOT help. Back the hell up and give me some space. It's bad enough that I feel like I'm about to die at any moment when it starts happening but having a bunch of people crowd around me, or, (please god, don't do this) touch me, makes it ten times worse. I get that some are just trying to help, but when people who have anxiety are that far into an episode, just be there. Don't grab them. Don't tell them to calm down. Just stay there with them until it blows over.
People have a huge, fat aunt or they buy a huge Coke at McDonalds. Big and little are Coke sizes. But we know that huge numbers are really big like the difference between a mountain or an ant hill, right?
But huge numbers are beyond comparisons in a physical object scale.
So consider 14,000,00,000,000 or 14 trillion. The US national debt in 2016 was 14 trillion dollars. How many huge McDonald's cokes is that? All the water in all the oceans on Earth would fill roughly 14 trillion SuperSize coke cups.
Or we try to use time. A Year is 3.4 million seconds. MILLION. Does the average person live a BILLION seconds? Yeah. If you're a billion seconds old you're 31 years old. You were born in 1986 when the global average life expectancy was a little over 2 billion seconds (63 y.o.).
So how many years is a US National Debt of Seconds, 14 trillion? What is 14 trillion seconds old? The Great Pyramids? Dinosaurs? Don't be ridiculous. The Dinosaurs died over 2,000 trillion seconds ago.
Neanderthals evolved about 14 trillion seconds or 440,000 years ago but homo sapiens are younger. According to Google, greenhouse gases are at their highest level in the last 440,000 years or 1 US national debt seconds ago or 1 neanderthal ago.
I'm just Googling 14 trillion in different units since that was the number I got when I measured the ocean's volume in Coke cups.
Whenever you find a large number just Google that number to find out what things are as numerous as that number. If you read that something will cost tax-payers millions of dollars ask yourself: is that as many as the population of New York or the population of the US or the population of India (8.5 million, 323 million, and 1.3 billion respectively).
Just memorizing a few huge numbers as reference points helps. But really, the exact same number of people live in New York City and India: a whole shitload of people, too many to count, too many for you to wrap your head around.
(also since I just did all the math in Google, at least one of these numbers is off by a few zeros.)
Just because you disagree with someone's non violent actions doesn't give you the right to inflict violence upon them. Be that through your actions, calling in the government, or otherwise inciting others.
However, upon an ideology becoming violent, proceed to drop the hammer.
That Nazism wasn't a banner for retarded rednecks (who aren't even German) to stand behind and use as a symbol of hate. Big difference between bigotry and nationalism. There's absolutely nothing wrong with being a patriot and wanting your nation to be strong and to excel. That being said the whole idea of nationalism is now categorized as a hateful, disgusting ideal that only white supremacists could get behind.
NPR & The Guardian are a couple that come to mind. Typically with NPR, I'm just listening to news headlines at the top of the hour. I understand they're considered more liberal-leaning, but the headlines typically just report facts, not so much opinion.
Irelgbt · 1 points · Posted at 23:27:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes but it's obvious as to why not only is everyone familiar with it but it allowed people to switch from typing with some sort of tax writer to a computer easily and so forth
There are a whole spectrum of libertarians. We're not all rich, entitled neocons, here to devax your babies.
Some of us are rich, entitled neolibs, here to devax your babies.
For real: I'm joking of course, there are many libertarians on the civil libertarian side that are natural liberal allies. And many of us love vaccines!
roxum1 · 1 points · Posted at 23:32:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Credit Reports
A_Dany · 1 points · Posted at 23:32:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just how fucked we are in the next decade. But, there's nothing special about humans, so whatever, we had a good run.
ucccft · 1 points · Posted at 01:38:52 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Please wake up! Many of the States have already been Invaded! This is one of those shady areas. If you have millions of people who Invade a country, isn't that a Declaration of WAR without words? It's so hilarious if you think about it, it's a passive invasion, happens slowly and over time because we don't enforce the existing laws. So instead of enforcing said laws, we would rather bend over backward for cheap-cheap H-1B/L1, Visa-Over-stayer, and illegals that do not want to assimilate nor speak English. Now that right there is a democracy, a failed one at that. So how exactly does this help the ANY "American" of ANY Race?
Think about it, It's NOT THE POOR who Hire all the H-1B and Illegal Alien, it's all the rich good old boys.
Maybe not 90%, but all of my family. It is a lot easier for everyone to do something yourself than walk to the other side of the house, ask me to "help," have me do it for you instead, and walk back.
If you don't know what you are doing or are incapable of it that is one thing, but if you can do it on your own, don't go out of your way to ask me to fucking do it for you.
If you want it, you have to work really hard at it--not just more than you are doing to get by, but intense concentrated effort. And it may take years for your efforts to show fruit.
Very few people truly understand this, but once they do--they can achieve what others just dream about.
Arrogance is the least attractive trait a person can have.
For some it's ignorance. There's also a negative correlation between how much someone's "arrogance" (or your perception of it) bothers you and your own security.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 21:38:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Either way you have a point. The more intelligent someone is, the lonlier they will be. I don't think I'm too far off the median 90% where it's significant, but I can't imagine how someone far more intelligent than I copes with people seeing everything less clearly.
people get really weird about intelligence. I think most people believe it's more important than it really is. Intelligence is not a requirement for success or happiness. Sure there is some correlation between intelligence and success, but it's just a correlation it's not a rule.
Edit: I immediately take that back. It's because when people randomly bring up intelligence, about 99% of the time it adds nothing to the conversation and is basically used as an attempt to seem important or win an argument etc.
I can see how people read my comment and misinterpret it as "just another dude trying to find any excuse he can to talk about how smart he is eye roll" but to be honest the reason I chose this response is because
Which direction to move when someone is approaching you on a sidewalk.
I indubitably concur, my good fellow. Whensoever I pontificate with regard to my dialect of sesquipedalian verbosity or my superior capacity for rote and comprehension, I am always met with most proletariat and primitive responses. Some at least appreciate my gifts, as they inform me I must go to /r/iamverysmart, whereupon I may bask in the serendipity of the intellect of my fellows.
I scored a 95% in every IQ test ever devised. Clearly society knows not how to treat us
Getting personal. Yes, I had a battery of tests from a Developmental Psychologist. At the time, they said "We don't want to put a number on it, but he is very, very intelligent."
Other, much less rigorous tests since then would put me firmly in the top 1%.
And no, I don't really consider myself that exceptional. My father was far more intelligent than me. I would say I think quickly, have good pattern recognition, and a reasonably good memory. My father was an eidetic polyglot.
KenuR · 1 points · Posted at 18:04:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If there was a button that would make me happy for the rest of my life I'd press it in a heartbeat. Even if I'd become a vegetable or something.
what!? You mean finding almost everyone either boring or annoying to the point where you even feel that way about yourself isn't all its cracked up to be?
that is just semantics of whether the question means at least 90% or exactly 90%
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 18:58:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Capitalism is exploitation
[deleted] · -7 points · Posted at 17:49:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 20:16:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And to show they were socialists they put them in prison so they couldn't vote against anything they did! Makes total sense!
warpg8 · 3 points · Posted at 20:36:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How historically revisionist of you. They were fascists who rose to power under the guise of socialism by offering up some small, basic social programs and reforms because of how economically decimated Germany was at the end of WWI. Then, after they had power, they revealed themselves to be who they always had been, which was opportunistic fascists.
[deleted] · 13 points · Posted at 19:16:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
By that logic, North Korea must be a democratic republic. It's right there in thier name.
That your political opinions are generic and completely unremarkable, more so completely not worth shit.
If you are willing to cause violence or harass anyone based on your dumbass opinions, you are human garbage and a detriment to society.
Its ridiculous how much circlejerking happens on this site. Not to mention mods blatantly pushing their rhetoric to the top. I have 23 blocked political subs and default subs who clearly bot/manipulate political garbage to the top of /r/all.
if you're clearly blocking a door/hallway that i'm headed toward, don't do the dumb side-to-side shimmy and ask "shall we dance?" like a dumbass -- get the fuck out of my way.
The amount of people who thought 50 Cent had gone broke and Donald Trump doesn't have money because of bankruptcies really was eye-opening. So many Americans have no idea how our financial systems work
Chip and swipe literally takes the exact same amount of time, quit your bitching.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:59:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you see someone running, get the hell out the way. I went for a run earlier today and a couple of old ladies just took up the entire footpath forcing me on to the grass, then when I nearly finished my lap they got in the way again forcing me to stop rather than go on the road and one of them just said "oh we saw you before", completely oblivious that I'm trying to top my best 5k time.
That freedom of speech does not mean you can say anything that you want without any repercussion from private individuals or businesses.
Anyposs · 1 points · Posted at 18:30:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That humans aren't dealing with an "us" vs. "them," but an "us" vs. "us." This can be applied to politics and wars, as we can't seem to realize that we're all humans on this small little speck of blue, and we have to learn to live with each other. We need to realize we're all on the same team here.
THAT ZENYATTA CANT FUCKING SOLO HEAL. ESPECIALLY IN COMP, I PICK ZEN TO HAVE FUN NOT HEAR 5 FIVE WINING IMBECILES BEGGING FOR ME TO HEAL THEM AT THE SAME TIME
Mahruta · 1 points · Posted at 19:56:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just pick Ana or Mercy and boom problem solved, your team is not getting cucked every fight now
That sugar will not make children hyper. It's been debunked over and over but the masses continue to say it like its true "Jimmy couldn't sleep last night, he was all hopped up on jellybeans"
This is a good one, and I think it's way more than 90%.
Even though I've read enough to convince me what you say is true, part of my brain still won't accept it.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:43:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm late to the party but here goes.
That we're (The U.S. anyway) doomed.
I'm in my mid twenties. Growing up, everyone told me social security wouldn't be around for my generation. They said get a good job and save. Be prepared.
I don't think they knew Social Security wouldn't be around for my parents.
It's not a problem anyone thought of. Everyone's living longer, better lives! That's great, right? But, in an insidious way it's going to be our downfall unless something major happens very soon. The weight of the baby boomers, and then all of their kids combined with the fact that people are living longer and longer (thus receiving benefits for longer and longer) is going to destroy social security.
All of the sudden our country will be full to the brim with elderly people that can't get back in to the workforce, and suddenly don't have that safety net they were counting on. We're talking millions of people with literally no money, all of the sudden. Where will they go? How will they afford to eat? Much less pay rent. The lucky ones will be able to move in with their kids. The less fortunate, well.... I don't think it's an exaggeration to say we could start having bodies in the streets.
No one's talking about it. But in the next 20-40 years, the economy as we know it is going to have to change or millions upon millions will die. Automation is taking jobs at a faster and faster rate. There already aren't enough jobs, and the jobs we do have are going away fast. Consider how many millions of jobs will be lost to automated cars alone, much less all the other automation we'll be figuring out in the near future. No jobs, no social security safety net.... It paints a bleak picture. And there doesn't seem to be a solution.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:56:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Capitalism is making the planet uninhabitable so the .01% can buy their 7th yacht...
hey, girl what's the issue? Surely as a woman you have emotions and those colour your intellect more than guy's? That's half way to spirituality.. how do you know I'm seducable? I know your game. The power of the mind :)
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:07:17 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
5 People. they norm, they pleb and they hum(the)drum.
(These next ones are enlightened/empowered)
6 Devils, they'll nick your drugs and your money but they're okay really. they need some spiritual guidance. They often fall because of trivial pursuit.
7 Men. They exist in heaven. 777 Jackpot.
8 Women. They are heaven, on their sides 8 is ∞. They have deep spirituality and care for animals and people alike "aww how cute" instead of "LOL" and are nurturing. They even have breasts like the Brahman.
9 Messiah, not seduced, Buddha, Tesla, Newton, Joan of Arc.. uncorrupted shamans are here too. They're close to the source and they channel the original order and spiritual leaders. They have little to no mental illness. beings of light, Zen, quantum erasure and pure love. Decent gurus are here too.
You decimalise it, so if you're an enlightened tomboy woman you're an 8.7.
What do you think. Do you like my spirituality scale?
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 20:32:36 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 14:33:35 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm pretty sure this guy's just insane. Nothing he says makes any sense.
Jesus was a 9.7. Starcraft 2 players are 9.0. They haven't been seduced by a woman yet. You can attain a 9 again if you commit yourself truly to the cause so gurus and the Buddha can regain their 9s. Cloud 9 innit.
Today we have a 9.8 out there I think. A female Jesus. I think she'd have good genes to start with so Afro/Native American/Indian/Chinese. I can barely imagine how they'd look. She's be the spiritual leader of every spiritual person on Earth. Brahman incarnate, guiding us through crazy age of Donald Trump, Brexit, Un, Putin, China etc...
Quantum computers are nearing their early potential, we'll put a neural network AI in there and we'll have technology inventor. You put in your blueprints and find optimal engineering solutions, put in a fusion reactor for example and a few months it will spit out a working net profit fusion reactor blueprint. We have genius/Jesus somewhere in the west loking out for 1.1billion of us westerners. I wonder who it could be hmm. It's not you is it? :)
India and China have the same but they both have 1.4 billion so they slightly outweight, you'll notice a lot industry is moving that way and we drink their culture like Sanskrit and zen Buddhism, we don't have anything like it over here apart from the new quantum mechanics based simulation theories. ;)
True power is derived from spirituality.
Same with South America but they have far less people and then the same again for Oceania with again far less people. You get a central part to the trunk ion a tree and that is your genius/messiahs/major spiritual leaders.
That we are all debt slaves - many people out there that believe that the Federal Reserve is an “agency” of the federal government. But that is not true at all. The Federal Reserve is an unelected, unaccountable central banking cartel, and it has argued in federal court that it is “not an agency” of the federal government and therefore not subject to the Freedom of Information Act. The 12 regional Federal Reserve banks are organized “much like private corporations“, and they actually issue shares of stock to the “member banks” that own them. 100 percent of the shareholders of the Federal Reserve are private banks. The U.S. government owns zero shares.
Many people also assume that the federal government “issues money”, but that is not true at all either. Under our current system, what the federal government actually does is borrow money that the Federal Reserve creates out of thin air. The big banks, the ultra-wealthy and other countries purchase the debt that is created, and we end up as debt servants to them.
wreave · 1 points · Posted at 19:42:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Free speech only works when you also defend speech that you don't like. Allowing only "free speech" that you agree with is the exact opposite of free speech.
It doesn't matter what you call things. Labels are pointless and usually uttered as a means of distraction. Word meanings are arbitrary and arguing about the "true" meaning of a word is a waste of time.
That's much less an atheist thing and much more an absurdist thing. There may be no such things as a nihilist christian, but there are existentialist and absurdist atheists.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 01:05:45 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
Wow... More positive votes for the negative comments, then the negative votes for the comment itself... I read the polls and realize atheists are unpopular but always surprised when I am reminded it is so...
I sexually Identify as an emo. Ever since I was a boy I dreamed of cutting all over myself dripping hot warm blood all over the floor. People say to me that a person being an emo is impossile and fucking retarded but I don’t care, I’m beautiful. I’m having a plastic surgeon install razorblades, scalpels and knives all over my body. From now on I want you guys to call me “Maleza” and respect my right to cut my arms and listen to Bring Me To Life by Evanescence. If you can’t accept me you’re a emophobe and need to check your styrofoam privilege. Thank you for being so understanding.
[deleted] · 4 points · Posted at 18:35:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Lol I know you're trolling but I have actually met a very troubled person who is exactly like this
Sebly1 · -37 points · Posted at 14:33:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Patriotism is shit and isn't to far away from fascism.
[deleted] · 17 points · Posted at 16:09:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I believe you mean nationalism, which can then turn into fascism. Another problem is that people seem to have forgotten what patriotism really was: loyalty to your country and her inhabitants.
Problem is people take that last bit and choose to exclude various groups, claiming "they don't count".
I'll use the U.S. as an example, because it's what I know. If you either came to the Unites States to live and love, or were born here and choose to do so, then you are an American, free and the same as the rest of us.
If someone denies, or tried to deny someone else that right based purely on skin colour, or religion, or heritage, then they [the denier] are not a patriot.
If one supports an enemy of this country in an active sense, or would desire their victory over us, be it the Nazis, Stalinists, Taliban or whoever, they are not a patriot.
If one threatens with violence and brutal oppression their fellow Americans for petty reasons (as is happening now) they are not a patriot.
Now, do not misunderstand me. Being critical of your government and, to a degree, your country's culture (e.g. a progressive believing that democrats have lost what made them great, or a conservative believing liberals are losing focus on what matters) can be patriotic. Protesting and vocalizing discontent can be patriotic, but desiring the deaths or exiles of other Americans for stupid reasons, such as simply because their a liberal or a conservative, Jewish or Christian, or black or white or any colour is unpatriotic, and when faced with radicalism one should feel, more than anything else, sorrow for their comrades, and should desire that in the end they open their mind to reason, long enough to reach a proper balance and healthy respect for their fellow Americans.
You shouldn't be, because people are stupid and don't know the difference between nationalism and patriotism. Germany is actually an awesome country, it's sad that people can't really be patriotic there.
Sebly1 · -15 points · Posted at 17:46:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Obviously I,m right because in reddit you get downvoted for saying the truth.
Mahruta · 3 points · Posted at 19:49:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ok, then. Hitler did nothing wrong! Let's see how Reddit will downvote this "truth".
Lately Reddit has been promoting posts designed to teach/convince others that patriotism and nationalism are very different, with the former being inspiring/good and the latter being extreme/bigoted/bad. That's not how I understand the word patriotism, but it seems that's how many others understand it, Americans are raised to believe in patriotism.
That socialism and progressivism is destructive and never works.
amn70 · 2 points · Posted at 18:24:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Without progressivism our country wouldn't have advanced. Woman still wouldn't vote and it would still be legal to own slaves. Both conservatism and progressivism have good and bad parts but overall it's progressivesm that moves society forward.
Yeah and what else did we get? Massive government spending and increase in size, the limiting of individual liberty, the oppression of the minority, the shrinking of the middle class, and the overall expansion of socialist ideals
amn70 · 3 points · Posted at 21:24:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So u have been ok if women were still not allowed to vote and we could still legally own blacks? In the end both ends of spectrum can have bad aspects, its about finding a balance. You just have it ur head that ur side can do no wrong.
That putting your flasher/blinker on to switch lanes doesn't automatically allow you to come over in front of me. It's sort of like a question, you blink, I flash my headlights, and you proceed to enter my lane. Don't just assume that I'm going to let you over. Sadly this is how I got ran off the road
EDIT: This applies if the distance between me and them AFTER the lane change is entirely too close
There is no such thing as a "free trial." Read the GD terms and conditions and you'll see that you're getting charged $99.99 per month for wrinkle cream that doesn't work.
Porn, but in a social context. Everyone faps and people don't understand that. I could be a computer science major working on cyber security for porn hub, encrypting the information on there paid amateur program and people would look keep their kids away from me because I do 'lewd things all day'. Bitch I write code, ain't shit lewd about that!
butkaf · 0 points · Posted at 19:10:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Humans are animals, biological beings bound by constraints and species-typical behaviours no culture or ideology will ever overcome or suppress, and feverish attempts to do so only cause suffering.
Most people don't understand quite how much influence random chance and luck has had on their life. The richer you are the more likely you're going ascribe your good fortune to hard work, when the reality is more likely that you got lucky.
The concept of "free speech". Taking it away for just some is against what many people have fought for. Saying what you want to say isn't against the law but it doesn't mean that it won't have repercussions. I've seen so much crap posted online this week that I feel a majority of the internet needs a couple of Free Speech for Dummies books handed out.
That it doesn't matter who the president is, we are all getting fucked and all politicians are crooked and generally trying to steal everything from us.
Sex doesn't equal gender. Someone's sex is what's between their legs. Gender is which gender role you fit into. A woman is female(sex) but feels like a man(gender).
Downvoting isn't meant for use when you disagree. I admit I do it too when someone says something odious, but I try to not use it too much.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 20:33:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You can't be an anti-fascist, anarchist student when the establishment let 1% let you borrow $70,000 to go to college (a.k.a. young person vacation time, especially when you have a non-STEM degree)
I'm pretty sure that's the whole point. I think you'd be fairly anti-capitalist if you ended up aged 20-something with thousands in debt and no choice about whether you take the English degree you really want to do or the STEM degree you need for a good quality of life.
As a young 20-something with a degree and debt...that was not vacation time. Good god that would have been nice! Lol
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 00:24:35 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
You can get a good quality life without going to college, people don't understand this for some reason. There is no shame in learning a trade. I know people graduate school age, who never went to college, zero debt, own their own car and home.
[deleted] · -10 points · Posted at 18:13:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There are more than 2 genders. I will contest this with anyone.
Pig743 · 2 points · Posted at 19:52:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What's the difference between gender and peronality for you?
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:58:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's actually a good question. Gender is assigned to you at birth, and you have no choice. Personality is developed through experiences. I have been changing my gender because I feel like my biological gender (male) isn't congruent with how I feel on the inside (female.) I just like looking like and being percieved as female, because being male makes me uncomfortable.
Pig743 · 2 points · Posted at 20:00:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I see. Isn't that more a case of gender dysphoria, and not that there are more than 2 genders? Just that you feel that you are the opposite?
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 20:03:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oops, I forgot the context before I responded! Sorry! Anyways, some people feel like neither male or female are how they want to be percieved, and they rebel against the gender binary. Typically, nonbinary people have dysphoria with the male and female genders.
Pig743 · 1 points · Posted at 20:10:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In my opinion, I think there is a big flaw with it. There is no medical or biological proof they are another gender, or that they are essentially people with a disorder. Kinda like how intersex is not another gender. It does sound a bit mean though, because the word "disorder" always has a bit of a negative meaning.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 20:15:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I will respectfully disagree. Several cultures across the world have had instantses of 3, 4, and sometimes 5 seperate gender indentities.
Pig743 · 1 points · Posted at 20:26:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You have to think about if that is really a strong argument though. I mean, historically what beliefs cultures have are not always the truth. Look at religion, there have been thousands of religions. Is even one of these really the truth though? It isn't scientifically proven in any way.
You are entitled to your own belief, but I don't think there is enough evidence as of now.
(Of course this does not mean I discriminate against people who identify as non-binary)
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 20:34:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Lets agree to disagree then. Thanks for being respectful and not an asshole in this conversation.
Redici · 1 points · Posted at 19:20:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So, I've actually been thinking in this for a while the other day. What's the difference between what you call genders (beyond male/female/intersexual) and sexualities? Because in the recent (couple years) I've noticed a lot of time someone's "gender" is just a better guide of who they'd like to have sex with which I've always known as someone's secuality. Now of course there's also "genders" that are described like "when the sun is out but it's partially cloudy I identify as a space fox from the 7th planet of the 23rd star" or other ridiculous things.
[deleted] · -1 points · Posted at 19:37:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
First of all, gender is a social construct. Sexuality is who you want to bang. For example, I identify with female more than I do male despite being born male. Ergo, I am a transwomen. Anything that refers to me as male makes me feel uncomfortable, because thats not who I am. Some people, however, feel uncomfortable with male or female, and reject that idea entirely. The binary genders arent enough for everyone, and it's more like a spectrum. And finally, the kind of people that say stupid things like that final example you made are usually strawmen.
[deleted] · -1 points · Posted at 14:30:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just because you have a stable job, doesn’t mean you shouldn’t leave if you aren’t happy. I see it all the time people miserable in their jobs. You have the power to change the situation, but don’t expect the change to always be easy. If you’re not happy, work towards what makes you happy.
Vegetarians and Vegans are right! The vast majority is very wrong in thinking that it's acceptable to raise animals to slaughter and eat. This is not only extremely unethical, it's also incredibly unnecessary and unhealthy.
YileKu · -1 points · Posted at 19:26:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That government isn't santa clause. Politicians on TV keep saying they are going to give this and that to them and those. 90% of the people believe that and think it is okay. Government can't create something from nothing and give it away. It all has a cost and that cost is paid with forcefully taken resources.
The tu quoque fallacy (and many others) - this is especially visible here on reddit.
Tu quoque takes the form of
Fred: Cathy does thing A
Fred: doing thing A makes you a douche
Fred: Cathy is therefor a douche.
Cathy: Fred also does thing A, and therefor your conclusion is wrong, and I am not a douche!
See, the crux of tu quoque is that the person being accused tries to argue that they are not guilty of whatever they are being accused of because their accuser does the same thing, which is a conclusion which does not logically follow from the premise.
So, to pick on /r/worldnews, it's a valid argument to say that, for example, the US is bad because it had concentration camps for Japanese people. It is also a valid argument to say that the US is not the only bad country for this, because other countries have ALSO had concentration camps - this is not tu quoque, since the second argument is condemning the use of concentration camps by everyone, including the US.
Tu quoque in this example would be if the second argument stated "US concentration camps don't matter/didn't happen because other countries had concentration camps."
[deleted] · -1 points · Posted at 19:43:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
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dgm42 · 1 points · Posted at 19:50:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I like the Dilbert quote:
"There are two ways to get rich. One is by crime and the other is by inheritance. The preferred approach is to have your parents do the crime and then inherit from them."
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[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:59:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm 90% sure that everything mentioned in this thread is complete hyperbole or anecdotal and the great people of Reddit only want to nitpick about what Reddit nitpicks about.
Because if 9 out of 10 people committed all of these so-called offenses, I'm pretty sure the world would disintegrate within a week. Or we'd be praising our North Korean overlords. Take your pick. but you're all full of shit and complaining because you got shoved a bit on the bus this morning or called into a meeting that you didn't want to attend.
Stand back and think about it. Then go stand in the corner and feel shame for trying to elicit pity from the internet.
So? People got together and said "we want these services" and formed a government. The government says it costs 'x' to do, so taxes are collected to pay for it.
You can leave the country, renounce your citizenship and no longer pay taxes, but as long as you consume the services, you have to pay something.
40miler · -3 points · Posted at 19:05:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And to Hell with the people who don't use and don't want those services?
Mugging someone and then giving them a bag of rice is still mugging them.
Then leave. You live in society under the protection of their military, with healthcare, education, etc. available and you don't think you need to pay for those services? Just because you don't realize all the services your tax dollars go to doesn't mean you don't consume the services.
40miler · 2 points · Posted at 22:48:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Or, you know, the government could stop spending my money on things I neither want nor need. You asked "and you dont think you need to pay for those services?" I pay for my own healthcare. Ever heard of private school? Oh, and I paid for my own college, thanks.
What I'm not ok with is paying for other people's healthcare, education, charities, and incarceration for victimless crimes.
And for the record, I'm keenly aware of the "services" my tax dollars go to. Those are mostly services for other people. Taxation is the redistribution of wealth, which creates a society dependent upon a welfare state. Government should not be in the charity business. Social services programs should be private, philanthropic affairs. Because communism sucks. Socialism sucks.
Unfortunately for snowflakes like yourself, the country as a whole decided these services should be available regardless of you using them or not. You're left with two choices, either accept that the majority has decided what programs at minimum to provide and pay your taxes or leave and stop consuming any of the services.
Also, when you pick and choose how your tax dollars should be spent (specifying you aren't for incarceration of victimless crimes, let's me infer you are for crimes with a victim) you really weaken your "taxes are theft" argument. At this point you're sitting at a buffet saying you shouldn't be charged because you didn't try everything.
40miler · 2 points · Posted at 00:17:04 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ah. So you've chosen the whole "namecalling" approach. How very cosmopolitan.
Can't argue with that sort of intellectual fortitude. You've outwitted me, ma'am.
You're right, I shouldn't have called you a snowflake regardless of how appropriate it was to you. Of course, that doesn't invalidate any of my points.
You made a bad argument. I called you on it.
You responded with changing your argument. I called you on that.
You decided that rather than admit you were wrong, you'll feign offense that I called you a snowflake and tell yourself that you were right all along.
Guess what, you're still wrong. Taxes aren't theft. The majority voted for the policies that taxes fund (or at least the politicians that enacted them). If you think individual programs have to go, then get a majority together to get rid of the program. Otherwise, admit taxes are a part of society that go to programs you do and don't support or leave and renounce your citizenship and all services the government provides you.
Again, if you go to McDonalds and order a cheeseburger, and they make you pay, is it theft?
No, you're exchanging one thing for another. The majority has told the government to provide a service. That service costs money. Taxes fund the service.
But you, individually, don't want/ consume/etc. the specific service? Doesn't matter. The majority makes the rules and to get any service the government provides you have to pay all your taxes. The really nice thing is if you don't want any service, you have a way out of paying them: Leave the country, renounce your citizenship and use no more of what the government provides you.
40miler · 2 points · Posted at 01:43:22 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
The McDonald's analogy is fallacious in that you admitted that I initiated the transaction with McDonald's - that I was a voluntary and willing participant. A more representative scenario would be I go to McD's and order a cheeseburger, but they charge me for a cheeseburger, fries, Coke, and an apple pie... that I don't even get to eat. And that's where your whole "well, they offer the service so its your own fault for not partaking" argument falls apart.
Your like it or leave argument is nothing more than nationalist posturing, unworthy of retort as it implies that you hold a greater claim to the land (that I own and reside on) than I do.
Yeah, the analogy isn't great. But you yourself decided some things the taxes go to and some they can't. Instead of them tacking on the fries/ soda/etc. its more that you're going to be charged for the whole burger regardless of if you want it regular, without pickles, or plain. You want to be a part of this society because you want at least some of the things it offers. It doesn't accept you deciding you are paying ten cents less because you have no lettuce or tomato on your burger.
Your like it or leave argument is nothing more than nationalist posturing, unworthy of retort as it implies that you hold a greater claim to the land (that I own and reside on) than I do.
The majority controls the force of the country. You can make claim to whatever land you want but unless you can keep others from controlling it, your claim is worthless. The US military protects America, deciding you aren't part of it means you don't have their protection. That's why my response is suck it up or leave.
Yes, it's an analogy which means it isn't a perfect comparison but an attempt to explain.
You say taxes are theft. Except they are what's required to pay for the services the government provides. There's no depriving you of what you own, there's billing you for services rendered.
You say you don't want 'x' program but you aren't the ruler of the country. You have a voice, but so do a couple hundred million. The majority wants it, so it happens. That's how our government works.
You keep claiming the majority can't deprive the minority, but since they have, why do you think that they can't? The government has rules about things applying unfairly to protected classes, but just because you vote against a policy doesn't make you a protected class.
The smallest minority on Earth is the individual, whom should each be protected by unalienable rights from theft, regardless of the number who vote for that theft to occur. True enough, the majority do deprive the minority of rights whenever "they" hold control over the police power of the State -- we certainly don't live in a free society, and Individual rights are violated daily. But this can hardly be called moral, or just, or anything like a system that ought to be defended by free, rational men.
I like having paved roads, a police force, a fire department etc. I like paying taxes for those things.
What I do not like is people pocketing my tax money and misappropriating those funds in general.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:39:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Communism!
[deleted] · -2 points · Posted at 15:55:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That we're not as independent as we feel we are. The vast majority of our behaviours and views are heavily influenced by our environment - the people we know, the place we live, our access to information (or lack of it). Everything from what looks good to what role religion should play in government you didn't come up with without external influence.
It's important for understanding others as well as understanding yourself.
irombie · -2 points · Posted at 19:07:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
90% of white men: Feminism
90% of white people: race related Privilege
90% of wealthy people: socioeconomic privilege
90% of Americans: the US isn't particularly unique or great in regards to freedom and opportunity
[deleted] · -5 points · Posted at 17:36:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
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[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:10:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
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[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:25:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
To each his own I suppose. Everytime I go back to the QWERTY on my phone, I find it's pretty much unusable. It demands an unreasonable amount of precision from the user, and has to automatically correct typos in order to allow the user to type with any sort of speed. Using MessagEase, I've made only about three typos while typing this, without using text prediction (which is an option but I keep it switched off).
Irelgbt · 2 points · Posted at 17:51:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Why.Just why.
Nice to know someone is squeezing 10 seconds out of smartphone typing a day
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:01:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm just answering the question honestly. Most people don't see any problem with using a layout designed for typewriters to prevent type bars from jamming… On their smartphones! It's bad enough still using it on a PC!
[deleted] · -7 points · Posted at 17:48:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The wrong side won WW2
mu_on · -6 points · Posted at 17:53:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Most people don't understand how well the body heals itself when (and this doesn't apply to the most severe cases obviously): A) you stop relying on doctors B) you stop worrying C) you don't force a timeframe for getting better. I have had multiple types of chronic pain that have finally gone away for the most part simply from giving up on doctors and just not worrying. The body is far more intelligent than we are it seems.
Saved comment
Idiot_Savant_Tinker · 986 points · Posted at 15:46:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When you keep adding new tasks, but you aren't adding new pay, at some point people are going to start really half-assing it.
wolfgirlnaya · 135 points · Posted at 19:12:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Especially when you're cutting all the full-time positions and only hiring part-timers, while still maintaining hiring standards that are way out of scope for an entry-level job, but you expect all employees to be dedicated enough to their job that they do it well and with a sense of urgency, all while your long-term employees are getting pissed that they are always short-handed and have to keep training noobs who quit after a few months and leave them short-handed again because no one in their right mind who would qualify for that position would stay long-term at part-time. Not to mention the increase in starting wage with no further compensation for anyone making at or above that new wage. And I won't even mention how raises are no longer merit-based.
Basically, employers and companies need to pull their heads out of their asses and realize that they need to treat their employees well in order to get good workers. If you treat your employees like shit, you'll get shit work from them.
boingboingbong · 19 points · Posted at 23:15:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm relating to this so hard right now that if we banged it would be incest.
Th3Dr4GoN · 9 points · Posted at 22:30:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think you work for the same company I work for.
wolfgirlnaya · 5 points · Posted at 22:51:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Is the value wheel composed of 99% building shareholder value and 1% bullshit?
ALvl1337Magikarp · 3 points · Posted at 23:50:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Dang you literally just described how the store I work at is being ran right now.
lilith02 · 2 points · Posted at 15:58:19 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
A friend of mine offered to get me into the "escort" business and I almost considered it because of how much "real" jobs like to screw people over anyways.
wolfgirlnaya · 2 points · Posted at 16:12:37 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I have honestly considered whether or not I would turn down a job as an escort if it meant I could leave retail forever. I'd make a hell of a lot more money, that's for sure.
SqueakyKeeten · 1 points · Posted at 14:55:05 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
But...but...if we pay people then our shareholders won't get as much money! Won't someone think of the shareholders??
(/s just in case anyone thought otherwise)
wolfgirlnaya · 1 points · Posted at 15:29:37 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
To be perfectly honest, I wouldn't even mind if they wanted to prioritize shareholders. The fact is that the CEO makes $12 FUCKING MILLION while I'm here making below the poverty line. If I wasn't married, I'd be totally screwed.
Managers, which are a whopping 2 steps above my husband, make quadruple what he does as a supervisor. I'm a base-level employee and the manager makes 10x what I do. They expect us to live off of that kind of pay? I fucking hate this place.
SqueakyKeeten · 2 points · Posted at 16:07:54 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's terrible, and really the bigger issue I was mocking was that these companies talk about their bottom lines and try to say that there "just isn't money" to hire full-time staff, provide benefits, raises, living wages, etc...all while giving millions in profits to shareholders and giving millions in salaries to a whole lot of upper executives.
Executives get cost-of-living adjustments that outpace inflation, bonuses equal to several times the annual salary of the average employee, and countless other benefits, but if they pay the normal workers any more, well, that would just be too taxing on the bottom line.
wolfgirlnaya · 0 points · Posted at 16:17:34 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
So much truth. I'd like to see a company where everyone makes the same amount, which is influenced by company success. Entry-level employees busting their asses helping rude, entitled, know-it-all customers while also maintaining the store every day should make just as much as, or more than, the figurehead who's always on vacation. Plus, then people would go for the position they'd like most or be best in, rather than taking promotions for the sake of a paycheck, even if they can't do the job well.
CatNigga · 246 points · Posted at 17:26:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Still baffles me how some employers simply cannot fathom this concept.
beerstearns · 22 points · Posted at 20:33:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's what happens when the company's financial departments hold more power than the human resource departments. HR generally knows that a slightly overstaffed business is a good thing, but their hands are tied when they have constant pressure from above to cut costs.
Also labor is the easiest variable cost to cut and CFO's see dollar signs.
[deleted] · 10 points · Posted at 22:06:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
HR don't give a shit unless it's in their job description. Don't fool yourself.
MJKP97 · 3 points · Posted at 23:01:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
@pandaexpress
[deleted] · 25 points · Posted at 18:41:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The solution is overtime. I stopped trying to fit all the extra work I was getting in to an 8 hour day and started putting 4-6 hours of overtime in every night. Your employer will notice pretty quickly then you can talk about either lightening the load or eating the extra wages I'm going to be taking.
ClutzyMe · 12 points · Posted at 20:54:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Are you hourly or salary? Last place I was at would not entertain the thought of paying any overtime to salary employees despite the fact that it was a regular occurrence for staff to stay several hours overtime and come in on weekends just to keep up. When anyone brought it up, we were told we had to manage our time better.
[deleted] · 8 points · Posted at 20:56:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My overtime is paid hourly but technically I am on salary according to our payroll.
I do end up getting about 1.5x what my hourly rate would be when I get overtime.
We were given shit about managing our time better too and told to download some stopwatch app. So I did exactly that and put in an extra 30 mins for "managing stupid stopwatch app".
ClutzyMe · 9 points · Posted at 20:58:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well, at least they are paying you, so there's that. The place I was at had it written into the employment contract that there was no compensation for OT unless preapproved. Guess how often that happened.
AverageMerica · 4 points · Posted at 00:36:48 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oh gee would you look at the time... Gotta go home.
Wigwag85 · 9 points · Posted at 21:10:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I just stopped putting in overtime at my last job because of that shit. Every week of at least five hours of non compensated overtime? My answer when asked to come in became "I'll try." I didn't.
Idiot_Savant_Tinker · 9 points · Posted at 20:12:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Would be an idea, but I work 12 hour shifts. I don't feel like sticking it to them enough to stay for 13-16 hours per day.
NoApollonia · 1 points · Posted at 20:29:49 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Depends on if you are hourly or salary. Salary doesn't typically see overtime wages, so if you put in extra hours you are doing it on your time without any pay.
kyliekayru · 35 points · Posted at 18:03:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My job exactly. My tasks have about doubled, and I've gotten maybe a $0.50/hr raise in the last year. That $0.50/hr isn't gonna cut it. I'm ready to bail and look elsewhere!
Idiot_Savant_Tinker · 21 points · Posted at 18:16:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The one I feel bad for is my supervisor. I'm one of four people who do my job (two week rotating schedule) and due to one woman leaving, I'm now the most experienced. And I sat him down the last day I was there and said "Something has to change. I've got more to do than is reasonably possible in a 12 hour period, new tasks added every week. My pay hasn't increased at all. Put me back on a [lift truck], the small amount more I'm paid for this position isn't worth it." He's getting the same thing from the other three people who do my job on the other shifts. He's got instructions from On High that he has to carry out, so he's stuck between a hard place and a group of people who are too overworked to care.
kyliekayru · 12 points · Posted at 19:40:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I wouldn't mind my job if I got paid accordingly and was trained to do half the things they tell me to do. Even today, I got handed a packet of POG numbers and was told to check all their locations and correct anything improperly located. I'm standing there internally panicking, wondering how I'm going to do that, which I barely understand, zone and organize my department, fill shelves, help people, pull down pallettes of new product, and find homes for those, as well as back up in other areas if called for, run out other co-worker's overflowing product to the floor, and take my breaks. For the unliveable wage I make, why should I try? I have nightmares about my job several days a week! My boss is in a similar position, having most of her team extremely unhappy. But there is nothing she can do. I know if I leave it'll devastate my coworkers since I'm pretty well-versed in where everything is, but I can't keep doing this shit.
Idiot_Savant_Tinker · 15 points · Posted at 20:15:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I understand not wanting to leave your coworkers/boss in a bad spot... but consider the reverse. How much warning would you get before losing your job? The way they're treating you, I'd say you owe nothing outside of collecting a paycheck and showing up every day.
tantrrick · 3 points · Posted at 19:52:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Bruh I can't locate my pogs either. I feel you.
joshandthewolf · 3 points · Posted at 04:03:06 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
They might be between the seats on the school bus?
LOOKATMEDAMMIT · 3 points · Posted at 21:36:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Are you a night stocker? Because that's my life right now.
kyliekayru · 2 points · Posted at 21:40:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm a shoe merchandiser at a super busy store, but know the basics of the whole apparel department. But I feel for the night/overnight teams, I hear horror stories!
joshandthewolf · 2 points · Posted at 04:05:45 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not to be confused with a night stalker.
LOOKATMEDAMMIT · 3 points · Posted at 05:21:57 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I like to dabble in both.
Lesp00n · 10 points · Posted at 19:38:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I have maybe three times the amount of tasks as when I started, and I've gotten one raise. For 9 cents. And they screwed up and didn't give it to me until a year after I was supposed to get it, then tried to lowball me on the difference when I'd averaged almost 6 hours of overtime a week all year.
And yet I'm still here, because I can't find anything in my actual field.
AverageMerica · 2 points · Posted at 14:54:34 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Don't knock it till you try it brother. Wish ya the best finding what you want in life. For me it was pizza.
AverageMerica · 1 points · Posted at 00:40:10 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Deliver pizzas for a living.
PossiblyAsian · 7 points · Posted at 20:36:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
TL DR retail. The hardest workers I saw there gave up and moved elsewhere, the only ones left were either incompetent or left with no other choice.
Fresh meat came in twice a month per two weeks and they were in and out.
quickscope10 · 7 points · Posted at 20:00:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Or thinking that a free lunch every month will be enough to take in another project besides the ones you manage anyway.
Idiot_Savant_Tinker · 8 points · Posted at 20:15:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"Oh boy, you saved me $5 this month, I'll gladly save you thousands of dollars!"
quickscope10 · 4 points · Posted at 20:22:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
last name 'labour', first name 'cheap'
Trust_Me_Im_Right · 5 points · Posted at 20:14:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What's the line from office space "it'll only make you work hard enough to not get fired"
ArcherWolf09 · 4 points · Posted at 21:38:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I can't upvote this enough.
Ondaii · 4 points · Posted at 21:46:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This needs gilding.
indigogalaxy_ · 2 points · Posted at 00:13:53 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
🙌🏼THIS, YES!🙌🏼
[deleted] · 6896 points · Posted at 14:20:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
SCPendolino · 2875 points · Posted at 15:40:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Everyone's the General once the battle is over...
Now, why didn't you write your post in a different tone?
bow_down_whelp · 172 points · Posted at 18:57:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A good commander works every post under his command at least once
[deleted] · 12 points · Posted at 19:45:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Back on topic, this advice is true.
After working as a day shifter doing more advanced work, then filling in for the guy who now has my old job, I work better and do things I would not have bothered to in the past.
unoriginal_badass · 20 points · Posted at 19:44:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Many people don't understand this about leadership. If you have not done a position, or flat out don't want to, then you are not the person to tell someone else to work it.
burkechrs1 · 20 points · Posted at 19:51:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not always. I run a company and I'm not an engineer. I don't know solidworks, I can't go engineering something. Basically all I can do is look up dimensions on a .dwg of .dxf. But that's why I hire engineers; so I don't need to know how to do that stuff.
But there is no doubt I will delegating the tasks that those engineers are going to be focusing on and what jobs need to go to the front of their queue.
Using your logic, I'm supposed to let those engineers decide what they are to spend their weeks doing? I've never been an engineer therefore I have no right to tell them what they are to be working on? Logic doesn't seem right.
ceetc · 18 points · Posted at 19:53:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There is a difference between deciding the direction of the project and insisting that everything has to be designed exclusively in Microsoft Paint.
redstonecyanide · 9 points · Posted at 19:58:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There's a difference between telling someone what to and and telling them how to do it. Not sure what type of engineers you hire, but assuming it's software related, you might tell them to create a mobile app that meets x requirements. That's when you depend on them to do their job to figure out a solution. Unless you understand how to do it yourself, you shouldn't be standing over their shoulders critiquing every move they make on the way to said solution. You might ask them if there are cheaper or faster ways to do it, but you don't dictate what they should be doing unless they're obviously not doing the job you hired them for. That's what the other commenters mean, from what I understand.
unoriginal_badass · 7 points · Posted at 19:59:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There's no doubt that my analogy does not work at a higher level. I was considering roles closer to retail that do not require much specialization from the employees.
From my perspective, I work venue security for outdoor amphitheaters. I am the supervisor for perimeter gates, which are the positions that no one really wants to do. Not because the roles are hard, but because they are boring. Often times the employee will be in one spot for an 8 hour shift with minimal activity.
The analogy is more about not being a hypocrite concerning positions that are lackluster in the minds of employees. It is about keeping morale.
Tar_alcaran · 1 points · Posted at 18:48:48 on August 22, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not at all, but it does require you either consult your engineers about things you don't understand, or give them a free hand in planning.
For example, I used to write safety plans for a big dirt-moving company. My boss would ALWAYS plan 4 hours for a change. So if we had to move 20.000m3 instead of 15.000m3, he'd schedule a 4 hour block of my plan-writing time. This of course takes about 20 seconds. But if we found, say, radioactive super anthrax, he'd blissfully plan in a 4 hour block of time wherein I could make 50-page addendum.
The same company based their modelling time on the length of the object to be modeled. 10km of arrow-straight canal? 20 days. 200 meters of twisty-turny marina? half a day's work.
Someone who worked that function wouldn't make those mistakes. Of course, someone competent enough to ask questions wouldn't either...
yeahyeaheyeknow · 5 points · Posted at 19:46:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Also true for porn stars.
lookmeat · 2 points · Posted at 20:17:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well not literally. A good commander understands that their job is to delegate and trust. They understand enough of the job to be able to recognize if there are problems. Enough to be able to appreciate and understand why its critical (or why it can be skipped if urgent). Enough to understand why they are terrible people to do it and shouldn't do it.
Even if you do the job at some point, by the time you get to lead it might be a completely different situation and reality. The hardships might have smoothed out, and the priorities might put the pressure and needs elsewhere than when one did the job. Even assuming that a lot of time and care was done on the jobs to understand them fully. If anything the fact that such a strong opinion was formed on experiences that may not be valid anymore risk the commander to micromanage and tell people how to do their job.
TL;DR: Being a good leader and manager requires understanding the needs of those underneath you and being able to explain to them what is needed of them. Understanding what someone does and the reality of it doesn't require understanding how to do it.
Fedex_me_your_Labia · 1 points · Posted at 21:40:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This definitely doesn't hold true in the military.
jordoc · 14 points · Posted at 19:01:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
too many chiefs, not enough indians..
ThusIsMoi · 14 points · Posted at 19:20:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Too many cooks
[deleted] · 6 points · Posted at 19:34:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Too many cooks !
Strasburgian · 5 points · Posted at 19:39:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Too many cocks!
[deleted] · 6 points · Posted at 19:45:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not enough ladies, too many mans.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 02:10:32 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Too many dicks on the dancefloor!
Deathdealer02 · 1 points · Posted at 19:44:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Too many cooooooks!
Im_Not_Mr_Fantastic · 4 points · Posted at 19:36:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Go to the General and save some time...
zapbark · 284 points · Posted at 18:35:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I suffered from this when I was younger.
Every job seemed trivial:
Since then I've learned that every job or trade has its collection of non-intuitive secrets for getting things done.
And that the more of these fiddly, "gotcha" details you learn, the higher your mastery of that job, and it is fiddly details all the way down.
Bob_12_Pack · 17 points · Posted at 20:08:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Acting is fucking tough. I signed-up to be an extra in a movie being filmed in my small town. I figured it would just be walking by in the background, if I even got used, but maybe I'd get to see some stars or something. Well I got picked to be a "featured extra" in a scene involving a stunt. Spent lots of time with the 2 principal actors, even had a close up. 2.5 days to film 1 scene. I'm rather shy and having that much attention focused on me made me VERY uncomfortable, plus it was fucking hot and most of the low level crew were dicks. The director, AD, and the principals (Josh Duhamel and Julianne Hough) were very nice, as were the B actors that were in the scene.
I never had any aspirations to be an actor, and what I did could barely be called acting, but I was exposed to enough of the process to recognize that it's not for me.
freakzilla149 · 9 points · Posted at 20:01:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I had marketing as my first career, there's so much jargon (internal, not user facing) that most people who think like that would come into the job and literally not understand what anyone was talking about.
There's an art and a science to marketing, and of course some of it is utter bullshit to fleece the client.
Now I study computer science, even though no one thinks they can just walk into Google and start coding, they think it's much much easier than it actually is.
zapbark · 6 points · Posted at 20:03:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
For me the big "ah ha" moment for Marketing was when I saw someone doing A/B ad testing.
Suddenly, it was a very interesting mix of design, statistics, and practical cognitive psychology.
scrabbleddie · 15 points · Posted at 19:11:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Getting maintenance done around a bunch of people, I've found, is quicker if I make a little sign-- such as, "I'm digging a Hole" and point to it when people ask what I'm doing.
[deleted] · 5 points · Posted at 19:29:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
bryxy · 2 points · Posted at 19:56:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think you missed the point..... I don't really know because I'm not sure what the hell the point was either.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 19:56:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
introspeck · 4 points · Posted at 20:50:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
As a young programmer I was sure that all the managers were stupid and that anyone could do their job, how tough could it be? Just tell people what to do, right?
I've since had many managers, both good and bad, and I've learned that it is not an easy job at all. It's a completely different skill set that I do not have. And I don't think I'd make a very good manager at all.
Captcha142 · 2 points · Posted at 13:18:09 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Can definitely confirm. Programming is also full of fiddly details.
"Oh, see it's crashing because you did x before h, you need h to come first"
"Why?"
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
NiceRetort · 1 points · Posted at 19:48:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Got any of those tips for an in-house contracts attorney?
ghc86 · 1 points · Posted at 19:57:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think your description of Marketing is accurate.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:58:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Has the suffering ceased now?
MasterbeaterPi · -3 points · Posted at 20:18:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Acting (Pauley Shore) Carpentry (Skilled Trade- a Pauley Shore house would not pass inspection) Marketing (Pauley Shore could be on the other end of that phone)
Carpentry keeps people dry during storms. Acting and marketing are trivial. Acting is an art open to interpretation. One mans Transformers 5 is another man Silence of the Lambs. As far as marketing goes, the more I see something advertised, the less I like it. If you knock on my door or call me selling something other than girl scout cookies I will think your IQ is less than that of the average girl scout and promptly end the conversation.
donshuggin · 956 points · Posted at 17:55:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I spent 7 years at a company where our motto was "nothing is outside my job description". I was in sales and while obviously I didn't start doing engineering overnight I was motivated to make an effort to learn a lot more about how the engineers were operating, and they did the same for my sales team, and the result was a much more collaborative environment where we all had a better understanding of what the company was up to overall. This was beyond invaluable and literally kept us alive in the face of increasing competition.
After that I got a management job in a new company and guess what the first thing was I submitted for policy?
I carry that motto with me everywhere these days and I'm grateful it was instilled in me over a decade ago.
seansafc89 · 334 points · Posted at 19:13:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My employers have a similar motto, just with a slight twist. Nothing is outside of our job description simply because we're having to cover the ever-increasing amount of work with an ever-decreasing workforce.
[deleted] · 144 points · Posted at 19:19:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
quiltr · 22 points · Posted at 19:44:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My husband hasn't even gotten a cost of living increase in over 5 years. Not because he doesn't bust his ass at work, but because the big wigs want to save the money for their multi-million dollar bonuses every year. And yet they continue to reduce the workforce and expect the remaining people to just pick up the slack.
Zanderfrieze · 4 points · Posted at 19:51:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You sounds like Walmart
lsmucker · 11 points · Posted at 19:54:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Welcome to America. Where employers pay you way less than your worth and give you more to do than your job description. Don't forget to smile and say "please sir, can I have another?"
Zanderfrieze · 4 points · Posted at 20:04:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
As it says in the good book (paraphrase), turn the other cheek! I will say though as a minimum wage employee at Walmart I do get paid $2 above the state minimum ($9.25 instead of $7.25 {not including yearly raises[which they are good at giving]}. Still, we should have a lot more people on our crew then we do. Still get our jobs done, and the job of our two shifts that work after us finished: but that isn't reflected on our yearly bonus.
I hear in North Dakota that the base pay for a Walmart employee is $13 an hour so that they are competitive with the oil company's/pipelines (they kept losing employees cause they paid more per hour).
quiltr · 1 points · Posted at 20:29:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No. He's a pressman for a newspaper that's still doing relatively well - well enough that the big wigs still get multi-million dollar bonuses every year. But fuck the people doing the actual work. They don't need money to live.
Forlarren · 2 points · Posted at 20:32:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Supply and demand.
Labor is worthless.
It's all just winding down, slowly bleeding momentum, taking more and more effort to turn to maintain the illusion it's still running.
GazLord · 1 points · Posted at 19:50:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
why is it all the people with power seem to be idiots who can only see the short term?
randomusername563483 · 4 points · Posted at 20:41:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's called democracy and that's how it works. People vote for someone they like and that person is normally the most convincing liar.
Hongxiquan · 7 points · Posted at 19:52:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
yeah, like I would like to do more work, but honestly if it's just more work without more compensation you start to feel a bit sore about it after a while. Also you can only juggle so many things before stuff starts fucking up.
PixieDixs · 0 points · Posted at 19:55:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
3%? I think you might be getting shafted either way, pretty sure inflation is up to 4% now.
juspeter · 4 points · Posted at 19:46:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yep. I'm at an office that has had more and more layoffs and people leaving in the past three years, we have to shoulder tasks we aren't being paid for (or sometimes aren't qualified for), and our salaries are sometimes as bad as half the average down the road.
Been trying for a new job for the past year.
CynicalCorkey · 2 points · Posted at 19:57:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Damn dude what department are you in we should get lunch.
E-Zen · 6 points · Posted at 19:16:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This.
LaGrrrande · 1 points · Posted at 20:06:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Why pay three people to do the work of three people when you can lay one of them off, and work the other two to death, then tell them that they should be thankful just to have a job?
yeahyeah91 · 1 points · Posted at 19:48:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Bolthouse?
AveTerran · 41 points · Posted at 19:08:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oh man. Can you PM me the company, old or new? “Not my job” has been like nails on a chalkboard to me ever since my first job as a teenager.
K3wp · 8 points · Posted at 19:40:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just a FYI, that's a fine motto when there is lots of cross-training and the scope is what I call "Kitchen" work. Chopping onions, peeling potatoes, taking orders, cleaning dishes, etc. That's fine. Much like in the Army everyone, even the medics and radio operators, have gone through basic training and know how fight.
In the professional world, on the other hand, it's an absolute nightmare. There should always be at least two people on hand that have the job as a primary or secondary duty, but expecting that anybody can step in and help out without doing some serious damage in the process is a fools errand. In many cases it's also a safety, security or legal issue as well.
Plus, I guar-an-tee you will experience the full Wrath of Hades if you touch an engineers stuff (without asking), break something or God forbid, hurt someone.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 20:07:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
K3wp · 1 points · Posted at 20:16:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's how it should be. Oversubscribing never works well in the long run.
Depends on the scope of the issue. I'm like that with documentation, for example. I'm always telling people if they don't like my docs in the wiki, they can change them however they see fit. After all, I'm not the one reading them.
And of course, there are shitty engineers that don't care about their craft. I get that.
But if you f-up and cause an outage, destroy evidence, etc. you can bet you are going hear some salty language.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:21:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
K3wp · 1 points · Posted at 20:38:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ok I hear that. For example, on my team we are all mostly interchangeable for the customer-facing stuff. I'm the tech lead so there is some hairy software/hardware stuff only I understand on the back end, but that's it.
I even had to have a talk with one of the new guys to not got miffed if one of us grabbed a customer request while they were in a meeting, at lunch or in the can. It's just how we do business.
aham42 · 3 points · Posted at 19:45:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's one of Amazons principles.
NoWar_But_ClassWar · 2 points · Posted at 19:49:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If they don't pay damn well, then you get not my job. You have to pay me for that. I'm no longer a sucker like I was in my early 20s.
Don't be a sucker for rich people.
[deleted] · 11 points · Posted at 19:17:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
We had a similar policy at my old job where you could apply to spend time in other departments to see how they worked. Not everyone took up the opportunity but you could tell straight away the ones that did. And it's not just great for customers, it's great for morale. Knowing the importance of getting your job right and the problems it causes down the chain was a great way of dealing with the apathetic "What's the worst that could happen?" attitude of not correcting mistakes when you see them.
donshuggin · 3 points · Posted at 19:45:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Companies with programs like this get it. It diversifies your understanding of tasks which makes work more fun and also more satisfying (because you understand other pieces of the overall output).
wren42 · 10 points · Posted at 19:20:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
yeah I worked at a company with this attitude as well, and it's extremely valuable. As a newbie I could ask someone a question and if they didn't know the answer, they would help me find out who did, even to getting up and coming with me to another department to find the answer.
donshuggin · 3 points · Posted at 19:45:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Great way to learn on the job and also learn who knows what which opens the door for future collaboration.
[deleted] · 6 points · Posted at 19:09:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's a really good way to do things. I like that.
neea22 · 7 points · Posted at 19:10:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My company has a similar motto, essentially stating that we're all part of the development team (I work for an app). My team helps cover simple troubleshooting steps, tries to replicate the issue, and passes feedback to our other teams without hesitating.
I love my job because I get to actually DO something for people.
TheAlmostBlackCat · 19 points · Posted at 19:19:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Janitor by day, neurosurgeon by night.
On a serious note I understand it's meant in the sense of everyone pitching in, like if you're walking down the hall and you see some trash on the ground pick it up and toss it out rather than saying that's what janitors are for. However, if it's really harped on and somehow enforced that seems like a deceptive way for the company to take advantage of low level employees. "Hey Karen from the cafeteria, we're short on grounds-keepers today, can you go cut some grass?"....but in reality they're always short on groundskeepers and someone is always getting forced to do the work of an understaffed department, saving the company money because they don't have to hire more workers.
starfirex · 5 points · Posted at 19:36:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There's a difference between employees taking responsibility for each other, and employers taking advantage of employees
TheAlmostBlackCat · 5 points · Posted at 19:37:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Do you not understand where I'm going with that? I thought I was pretty clear showing how the employer could deceptively create that mindset while having other intentions. Maybe I'm just jaded from the corporate chapter of my life.
starfirex · 1 points · Posted at 22:24:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It depends on who is saying that and what they mean by it. Janitors exist because it is cheaper for employers to pay them to clean than to have employees, whose wages are double or triple that of the Janitor's, do the same job half as efficiently. Honestly, it makes more sense for employers to support the idea that you're too good for cleaning in some ways.
SomeonesDumbIdea · 9 points · Posted at 19:12:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That sounds like a good idea, but I got in trouble by changing a garbage can that was overflowing in the last place I worked because ''you can't go around do the job that someone else is being paid for." :/
donshuggin · 7 points · Posted at 19:38:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Whoever told you that was looking at it wrong, in my opinion. I changed garbage cans too. Guess who I met at the dumpster? The janitor who was busting his ass changing other cans. Familiarity ensued. Went on to think of him by his name, not "the janitor". He would spend a little extra time in my department every week, hanging out, putting a little bit of extra elbow grease. A great example of this philosophy in action.
perfectdarktrump · 5 points · Posted at 19:20:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In my place it was territorial, back off that's my job! Don't tell me what to do!
donshuggin · 2 points · Posted at 19:45:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What line of work, might I ask?
perfectdarktrump · 2 points · Posted at 20:46:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This was film production, where people are told to only do their own job and nothing else.
pdbatwork · 8 points · Posted at 19:14:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I got something similar at my first job. "If you see a problem, you own it."
Rheastar · 7 points · Posted at 19:20:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In my experience this leads to people shutting up and not pointing out any problems.
donshuggin · 4 points · Posted at 19:41:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not if empowered correctly and given tools to explore new solutions, especially if its a collaborative environment. If ends up being, "you see a problem before anyone else sees it you own it and get to be part of a better solution".
edit: to clarify, you might see a problem that nobody else sees because you have a unique or outside perspective. You take it to your direct, he takes it across to the other department. Maybe it's nothing, good effort kid, keep paying attention. Or maybe they say "hey, we didn't think of that..." and collaborative problem solving ensues.
Rheastar · 1 points · Posted at 00:19:39 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
That sounds like an amazing working environment. Where do I sign up?
K3wp · 3 points · Posted at 19:50:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It does. But it's really the auditors, QA and manager that are supposed to be doing that (and setting priorities). This is one reason they have those anonymous suggestion boxes/helplines. So employees can report an issue without fear of retribution, or being expected to put in unpaid overtime to fix it.
I've also been in the situation where we had two people quit on my team and I ended up picking up some of their duties (and outsourcing the rest). When a third engineer quit I had to put my foot down and say, "Nope, you need to fill this position, fully outsource it or shut down the service. I can't take on any more responsibilities."
The older I get the more I appreciate the benefits of specialization and acquiring deep technical knowledge. The Jacks of all trades ultimately becomes masters of none.
muaddeej · 5 points · Posted at 19:35:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Fuck yeah. Maybe something like "If you see a problem, report it and we will act on it accordingly"
But I OWN it? Fuck that, I've got enough stuff to deal with.
pdbatwork · 1 points · Posted at 05:08:05 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sure, it depends on the type of people you work with. I think that goes for everything.
Where I worked there was a lot of ambitious people. They all fixed what they found. No reason not to.
Rheastar · 1 points · Posted at 01:46:35 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you're in the IT field I'd love to hear more. PM?
pdbatwork · 1 points · Posted at 08:11:59 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
I am in an IT field. Consulting, project management and programming. It's in the Denmark, though. If you still have question, just fire away :)
Rheastar · 2 points · Posted at 21:32:44 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ahhh. You're in Europe. Where the work environments seem to make more sense ;) and they value their employees.
:)
Am in America and work for and American company.
pdbatwork · 1 points · Posted at 07:17:58 on August 17, 2017 · (Permalink)
Come join us :) If you can live with all the other shit going on here :)
K3wp · 2 points · Posted at 19:44:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I've worked in IT for 20+ years and that's a general rule of thumb. "If you touch it, you own it."
Meaning, if you fix someones IT problem 'pro bono', you are going to be on the hook for every problem with it from now on. Forever. So don't do that.
Another fun one is "If you are complaining about a bug or missing feature, you have just volunteered to fix or implement it." This helps put a stop to bike shedding. People aren't going to complain as much about the color of the bike shed if they are going to be on the hook for painting it.
Asayakien · 4 points · Posted at 19:23:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I wish my job was like this. I work in IT, and this is currently how I attempt to work within the large company I work for; however, it's next to impossible when no one understands communication or has very little working knowledge on proprietary programs. I'd love to be able to make a collaborative effort in resolving issues more efficiently, but it gets lost in translation.
donshuggin · 2 points · Posted at 19:51:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
IT is a tough one because you're right, everything involved is so inherently technical. I didn't get to work with them until we did a big upgrade of our sales software. Due to the encouragement I had received, I sought out their offices and the result was one on one time with some of their top guys. I got explain what it was I did (and needed) in my own words, and they showed me how to get it done. They did the same for my boss, who got really good at backend stuff, and then she showed me the parts of that which applied to what I did. Having the collaborative philosophy in place empowered everyone involved to be open enough to allow all of this to happen.
Asayakien · 2 points · Posted at 20:03:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Absolutely!
TheRealBananaWolf · 3 points · Posted at 19:27:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Damn, now this is a quality post.
RemysBoyToy · 3 points · Posted at 19:37:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Any tips on how to enforce this mentality. Some people are quite well versed in the different roles and understand how a business works, others are happy to sit back and only do what they're told.
donshuggin · 2 points · Posted at 20:05:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
They made sure to bring it up in all of the company wide meetings. It helped that my direct manager had a great attitude and championed the mentality as well. She would show me examples and involve me. The company also compensated me fairly so I never had a reason to play the "I'm not motivated enough card." I ended up championing it as I grew within the company, and would regularly reinforce the virtues in my own department meetings. I imagine this was happening company-wide at every level, so when we went across departments they all felt the same way. We all expected it and were open to it.
HGovindD · 3 points · Posted at 19:40:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I CANNOT tell you how this is the RIGHT attitude to have. That's what I tell my friends : Never pigeonhole yourself.
A friend was telling me that he was in the planning section of a civil engineering project but that the company didn't get a lot of new projects & so, there was not a lot of planning to do i.e he didn't have a lot to do. This made him bored. I told him to get grinding in the design phase of the project.
donshuggin · 2 points · Posted at 20:01:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It was once harshly put to me "intelligent people are never bored."
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 19:49:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
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donshuggin · 3 points · Posted at 19:58:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I've met a few big cheeses like this. These guys are the absolute best to work with. On the other side of the coin, if you prove you're worth their time they'll usually let you in on some stuff beyond your pay grade if they think it will help you learn and grow. Your Dad sounds like a good dude I hope you follow in his footsteps.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 20:15:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
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donshuggin · 2 points · Posted at 20:21:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I never wanted to be a sales guy making promises I had no idea could be kept or not, thankfully this company gave me the support I needed to keep this from happening.
Congrats on the MBA!
manatee1010 · 3 points · Posted at 19:51:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is how my company is as well.
We hire you because you have expertise in an area that we need expertise in, and play to your strengths from there.
It's a 15 year old company with multi-million dollar/year contracts with a third of the Fortune 50, so it seems to be an okay strategy... :)
donshuggin · 2 points · Posted at 19:55:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This reminds me of hiring people based on both their proven talent and also their potential for growth
hulagirrrl · 3 points · Posted at 19:52:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I love this! A long time ago I read this little book called "A message to Garcia" and it folds right into your experience. Thank you for sharing!
Doublestack00 · 3 points · Posted at 19:56:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Describes my current position to a T, sadly all the other people who I used to work with that had this mentality are no longer here.
donshuggin · 1 points · Posted at 20:16:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's a tough situation. If you have it in you, you can champion it and try to foster the growth of this idea in your coworkers' mindsets. You might be able to pitch your bosses on this idea as well.
Doublestack00 · 1 points · Posted at 06:14:10 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
I've tried, the new leadership is all about everyone staying in their lane.
llewkeller · 3 points · Posted at 20:00:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I work in HR. Sometimes we have the opposite - people who feel they are cheated if they do anything outside their job description. The people who are bitter they're not promoted are often the same people who never volunteer for special projects that will expand their skill-set, and would look good on their resume.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 20:03:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Every once in a while my company pairs everyone with somebody from another department and you spend an entire day with them, half at their job and half at yours. It's actually pretty fun and useful experience. It's nice to get a little perspective on how things are for others in the company.
donshuggin · 2 points · Posted at 20:14:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is awesome!
DoomBot17 · 3 points · Posted at 20:08:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm still young, only 21 and still in college but I've worked at 2 restaurants. First one was a a busboy job, and I had these two waiters that I would always be paired with, and they were lazy as fuck. Never bussed a single plate back to the dishwasher. They would bring out a rack with wheels on it, put the plates on there, and make me take back every single one to the dishwasher. Every time I passed by them, they would tell me to do something, and I would have to do it. Even if I said I was extremely busy and have a lot to do, they would not give a fuck and still make me do what they wanted. Managers loved them too and got drinks with them all the time.
Ended up telling them to not be so fucking lazy and to use their two feet and two hands to get somebody their coffee. Quit right after I said that after four months.
Got a new job at a new restaurant, and it's so different. Our main motto is "hospitality towards everyone, not just the customers." Waiters feel bad if they tell me to bring a plate back to the dishwasher. Such a better system with better food and a much higher yelp rating.
donshuggin · 2 points · Posted at 20:25:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This mentality is extra useful in service jobs, especially if everyone on your crew believes in it. There's ALWAYS something to do in service but the specific tasks often shift in priority--if everyone can do everything, you can put out fires faster (sometimes literally) and still maintain smooth and consistent delivery of your overall output (tops and tickets). Which will keep Chef and the GM happy, and probably earn you more job security, tips, and shift preference.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 15:11:53 on August 18, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
DoomBot17 · 1 points · Posted at 19:00:45 on August 18, 2017 · (Permalink)
Should've clarified more. I was okay with bussing tables, but they had me do a lot of extra things that was not in my job description. Get coffee, get iced tea, shred cheese on their meal, cut bread.
While I had a lot of tables to bus, they would still make me do things outside of my job description that was in theirs. They would not help me out, and I would help them out in every way possible. They wouldn't care that I had a host telling me I needed to clean a table for new guests to arrive.
It's known for a waiter to grab the plates after the guests are done with the meal, and the busboy is supposed to bus the glasses and whatever is remaining on the table. That's how a good restaurant business works.
mustXdestroy · 3 points · Posted at 20:11:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well said. Btw the shitter's clogged again
donshuggin · 3 points · Posted at 20:22:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
HAHA
Ironically I found myself cleaning up an overflowed sewer a few weeks ago! Now I know how the drain system works. Won't clog again on my watch.
deityblade · 3 points · Posted at 19:42:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sounds like such a radical policy, I really thought it was going to have a more disastrous ending. It seems almost naive, but it worked, so clearly not!
donshuggin · 1 points · Posted at 19:59:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Hahaha! Well like I said I didn't start engineering overnight but over time I familiarized myself as much as I could with what they were doing which laid the ground for collaboration.
brainiac3397 · 2 points · Posted at 20:23:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
At the company I started with when I started college, everybody was essentially expected to have an idea of all the jobs lest they were required. I was pretty good at learning the other jobs and basically ended up knowing everything from the accounting to the operations, which resulted in me becoming the de facto "troubleshooter", especially with the occasional turnover due to the high stress environment
The boss followed the philosophy of "toss employee into water and they'll either learn to swim or drown" as a test to determine if they could handle the speed of growth he was aiming for. Worked out in the end, seeing as in less than 5 years there was an entire shift in operations and growth to a mid-level business with minimal interruption because the remaining employees were capable of picking up the loose ends. The downside of this approach was of course there were remnants from every employee that eventually went under, which was where I was supposed to come in, dig through the mess, and piece things back together.
Definitely helped get me experience to start my own consulting company & apparel/accessories business(work in progress of course. I've been financially pre-occupied thus not able to devote as much time as I'd want to get things moving).
jet_heller · 1 points · Posted at 19:57:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There's a huge difference between knowing how to do someone's job and doing it. When I have shit I need to get done, I can't also be doing someone else's job. That's not how it works when I need to finish my things.
donshuggin · 2 points · Posted at 20:19:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I feel you. Prioritization of responsibilities certainly comes into play. When the jobs are mutually conducive, I always try to go for it. Example: Walking to a meeting, a few minutes early, see an overflowing garbage bin, change it real quick on my way. That type of thing. If it was a super important meeting and I hadn't built in a little bit of early time, the bin would have had to wait.
bigfinnrider · -1 points · Posted at 19:30:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If nothing is outside my job description than I better be getting paid to do everyone's job.
Downvoted for wanting my salary to be commensurate with my responsibilities.
TheOneWhoSendsLetter · 1 points · Posted at 03:27:12 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
He's not meaning that. Stop being defensive.
[deleted] · -1 points · Posted at 20:04:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
donshuggin · 0 points · Posted at 20:12:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"Why can't the salesman just stick to his job? It would be so much better instead of trying to be a more helpful coworker."
LibertyTerp · 366 points · Posted at 15:32:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
OMG this. I am so tired of hearing people bitching about how other people do their job when they have no idea what they're talking about. It's so easy to throw stones.
And these same people turn around and immediately complain that other people are criticizing how they do their job. People are so self-centered they don't even recognize what they are doing.
Stiouxy · 14 points · Posted at 18:40:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Those who live in glass houses should change clothes in the basement.
WalkAMileInMyUGGS · 1 points · Posted at 19:36:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And they shouldn't masturbate in the daytime.
Parad0x76 · 9 points · Posted at 18:49:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"I only know one thing about your job"
"That one thing seems easy"
"Your job is easy"
groorgwrx · 7 points · Posted at 18:33:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
....or the guy being bitched about is outside the shop taking 40 minute smoke breaks leaving everyone else to pick up the slack.
Is that guy we're talking about?
Viciouslicker · 5 points · Posted at 19:01:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's that, and people honestly have no concept for the difficulty involved in something they don't have to do themselves.
You see it all the time, especially with things like sports. Ever see a guy screaming at his TV that something was so easy and he could do it in his sleep so why can't the professional do it the right way? And then you realize the guy probably couldn't huff and puff his sedentary arse halfway down the field, let alone make that super easy catch or run he was yelling about.
People look at something and overestimate their ability to do it, which means they think it's so simple.
jtmorphew · 5 points · Posted at 18:39:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is exactly why being a police officer isn't as rewarding as it should be. People are so ungrateful.
groorgwrx · 5 points · Posted at 19:10:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Have police friends, heard the stories...get over yourselves, your job is EASY!
/ S A R C A S M
Be safe out there.
jondonbovi · 2 points · Posted at 19:39:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The majority of my Facebook friends are cops or wives of cops. They have a tough job but I noticed that their mentality changes after they 're in the force. Everything is black and white to them. You're either a bad guy or not, everyone arrested is guilty, and the only reason why crime continues is because no one talks to the cops.
People act like it's the cops responsibility to end crime but they can't undo years of economic hardship and abuse.
10-6 · 2 points · Posted at 20:41:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Honestly, we recognize the grey area, but 99.9% of the time it doesn't matter. The vast majority of people arrested are guilty, and while people refusing to talk does help crime continue it is but a small part of the problem. The biggest problem is that crime does pay, and it pays pretty fucking good. You have people who are willing to risk jail to get that dope money because when they aren't in jail they are living like kings. That is the main problem.
jondonbovi · 1 points · Posted at 23:32:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sometimes they'll link an article to a person being found "not guilty" and they'll complain about how the justice system is messed up.
ShowMeYourSheep · 2 points · Posted at 18:55:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Cop here, can confirm.
313fuzzy · 2 points · Posted at 18:47:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Baahaahaa, had this last night at work. Truth is, if OP had documented correctly, I would have done my job "right."
hewasbornwavision · 2 points · Posted at 18:49:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's disgusting. Maybe their centre is filled with Dunkin-donuts
veritascz · 2 points · Posted at 19:02:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I work in a factory and the truth is my colleagues can be really lazy, they have a assigned work and instead of doing it, they are reading newspaper. Iam not saying I am not lazy because I am but I never abused it the way someone had to do it instead of me.
groorgwrx · 1 points · Posted at 19:07:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Factory worker here, I know exactly what you mean.
devoidz · 2 points · Posted at 19:28:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Every day someone bitches at my job. The why is there 20 cash registers and only 2 open job. I run the front end over night, and I take over at 10pm. I usually walk into all sorts of fuckery. Why isn't that open, why can't you open that? Why are you closing this?
I don't have time to explain it to people, not that they would listen. But we only have a finite number of people, and sometimes I have to shift them to not have problems later.
My particular store does a lot better with staffing than other stores, we usually have several registers open even late, and 8 self check outs.
One time a guy threw a fit because I sent the guy running self check on break instead of opening a register. We were resetting from one day to another. He had to go to break then, so he could be back to open it after reset. Because i wouldn't have anyone to break him after.
He wouldn't have cared, put him on another register. I need to buy this now! Because fuck us. We don't need breaks right? You can't wait in line for a few minutes.
bagels_for_everyone · 2 points · Posted at 19:12:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I have a restaurant and people always have a great idea on how it could be run better. My response is always the same. You really need to think about starting your own restaurant. Pluckers them right up.
PacManDreaming · 2 points · Posted at 19:58:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This could go two directions. Maybe they do have a good idea that would lower costs or make something more efficient.
Or, it could be that their idea is about as brilliant as using their tongue to force a corn-studded turd through their teeth, in order to extract the corn, so it can be used again.
jondonbovi · 1 points · Posted at 19:33:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is how most managers/employers feel. Some employees have a high opinion of their own intellect and think that their bosses have an unlimited supply of money.
It's easy to throw money at every problem, but in real life you have to pick and choose
Teddythefourth · 0 points · Posted at 19:15:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It warms my heart to know that you and I share the same feelings about all of Trumps critics.
mwatwe01 · 71 points · Posted at 16:19:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I always tell people, if they could have just, then they probably would have just. There's likely a good reason they didn't.
Colyer · 13 points · Posted at 18:37:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I recently took over a new position. I asked the outgoing person "Why do we do this thing that stupid way?" She answered "Because accounting is stuck in their ways." So a week into the job, I asked accounting to change it and it was done same day.
So I'd say assume competence (don't go into a conversation telling people how to do their jobs) but it's a good idea to ask anyway.
senatorknope · 1 points · Posted at 20:05:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This seems a bit different because you were actually going into the position and had knowledge in the field re: what would make your job easier. As opposed to someone saying "why didn't the senator just get rid of that law?" or something about efficiency in your job that they know nothing about.
Colyer · 1 points · Posted at 20:07:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, I guess. I read it as being in a professional context, but now I realise there's nothing in the OP that signifies that.
senatorknope · 1 points · Posted at 20:28:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, totally. I read it as "outsiders" commenting on your job, but it could be taken either way.
Foxkilt · 3 points · Posted at 18:33:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well yeah, and they are asking what that reason is.
ScrewMyDriver1 · 3 points · Posted at 18:59:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
People don't realize that if people are spending 20-40 hours per week at that job, chances are that they've already considered what is being suggested and they're not doing it for a reason
ElagabalusRex · 3 points · Posted at 19:03:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A cute sentiment, but it only makes sense when employment is determined by competence, and that's sadly not the case in this world.
cogitoergokaboom · 1 points · Posted at 20:01:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not sure why everyone is giving everyone else the benefit of the doubt all the sudden. Plenty of more efficient solutions are not done because of politics, inertia, fear or change, incompetence, nepotism, or a million other reasons.
peensandrice · 2 points · Posted at 18:30:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Unless you work in IT.
"Why couldn't they have just turned it off and turned it back on again..."
YeOldeButtPirate · 2 points · Posted at 18:35:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Same for maintenance of any kind.
"Hydraulic system won't work"
"It's off. Why couldn't you just turn it on yourself."
kingmanic · 2 points · Posted at 19:07:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The aversion of people from experimenting is why IT is as big as it is and why a lot of people in IT are employed.
donshuggin · 1 points · Posted at 19:53:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A lot of people have a limited capacity for problem solving to begin with, or get very comfortable with only one or two methods and cant progress beyond them if the situation calls for it--instead, they just call IT!
vulturetrainer · 7 points · Posted at 18:40:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes! Or wondering why someone hasn't been fired because you personally think their work is substandard. There's a lot of work that goes into firing someone, not to mention the cost of hiring someone else. Plus, who says the next person you hire is any more qualified? Sometimes management knows someone isn't doing the best job, but sometimes they accept it because it's not bad enough to warrant the effort it takes to replace them.
CrossFox42 · 11 points · Posted at 17:26:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I try to educate my co-workers a lot of times on shit like this. A perfect example came up the other day actually. I'm originally from Southern California, and I left to move to Cleveland at the peak of the draught we just had.
One of my co-workers was astonished that California could be in a draught because we lived on the coast. "Why don't they just take the salt out of the water man? I don't get it! I should move to California and open a salt removing plant (desalinstion). I'd be rich" I had to explain to him that currently, the cost of desalinstion is way to high, and it's not just a simple as "taking the salt out of water."
He then said Ohio should just sell our water to California (thinking that we were running out of bottled water I guess?) And I had to explain just how much water would have to be moved overland or the cost of building and aquaduct across country, plus the now added cost to Californians for their new imported water, not to mention most Ohians would not be okay with selling their valuable resource to another state.
It's much easier for people to assume complex problems have a very easy solution that could be thought up by anyone, rather than accept that they have no idea how to fix something that's broken.
mastelsa · 6 points · Posted at 19:26:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ugh I work in research and I could go on about this for days. It takes a certain level of arrogance in a person to believe that they, someone with absolutely zero background in or knowledge of this extremely complicated and long-standing problem, are the first and only person to have thought of this overly-simplified solution to this extremely complicated problem. A problem which literal hundreds of people with combined multiple centuries of education, and extensive knowledge and understanding of the problem and its complexity, are working on. If it were that easy, the problem would be solved by now, asshat.
DarkLink1065 · 2 points · Posted at 18:30:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Heck, SoCal already takes a lot of it's water from NorCal*, and it causes all kinds of issies in local politics.
*SoCal cities basically bought water rights in areas of NorCal a loooong time ago under the radar, and now a lot of rural citizens openly hate SoCal for it.
CrossFox42 · 2 points · Posted at 18:34:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yup. All for farmland IN THE MIDDLE OF THE MOJAVE DESERT!
2nd-Reddit-Account · 1 points · Posted at 20:15:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
To be fair, Sydney actually does this. 15% of our water supply comes from the desalination plant, with the capacity of it being 30% of our supply
tpklus · 5 points · Posted at 18:06:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I work with a large tech company in a local office alone with clients coming in everyday. They get upset when I don't give out the office number. Sorry, but I get 20 calls a day from non-clients, imagine if I added all 500+ of locals to the mix. I wouldn't be able to do my job. They can contact online support like everyone else.
[deleted] · 8 points · Posted at 18:00:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm a freelancer and I do not take on clients if they use the word "just" in the description of what they want me to do.
Jqerty · 5 points · Posted at 17:41:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Relevant xkcd
xxdeathknight72xx · 3 points · Posted at 18:25:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"Why can't you just copy the Anti-Gravity engines u/Area51_IT_Dept, you had no trouble adapting the transmission signals to every day wifi?"
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 18:33:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Who knew healthcare could be so complicated?
-Tom- · 5 points · Posted at 17:27:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How about when I've done their job and I had to do it when I was doing their job but now that I transitioned into a new position the task followed me even though it ends up with me waiting on the other person to get their stuff done so I can do "the last mile" of the task that I had no need to be involved in...
M_Me_Meteo · 2 points · Posted at 18:10:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I tell my team at work that if they start a sentence with "if they would just..." or "why can't they..." (with the "they" being another team or department) that I will always just give the complainer that job to do. Suddenly, we're the Mack-daddies of synergy and communication.
jmoneycgt · 2 points · Posted at 18:18:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sometimes I wan't to stand up and hand my keyboard to those people and say, "Ok, you do it then."
Phaedrus360 · 2 points · Posted at 18:37:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My old boss used to like the phrase "if you always do what you've always done then you will always get what you always got" or something along those lines. Just because someone does a job in a certain way and it gets the job done, doesn't mean it's the only or the best way to do something. A fresh set of eyes or a little outside influence can help
Bainsyboy · 2 points · Posted at 18:53:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I do utility locating for excavators and such. The big construction companies in my city get a lot of locates done, so they are regular "customers". Some of the foremen are so bad for this.
"This should only take you 20 minutes, there are no buried utilities in this area anyways."
"Actually no, there are buried utilities here, and it's probably gonna take me around 2 hours to do the locate."
"What do you mean? Don't you just yadda yadda yadda yadda. The last locate I had done in this area, it only took 20 minutes."
"Well, either the previous locator took some serious shortcuts, or this is a newly installed utility duct. (Or you really don't know what the fuck you're talking about, just let me do my fucking job asshole)."
Or clueless homeowners building a fence who proceed to tell me "exactly" where all there services are buried. And then when I do my job and locate them precisely, they get all confused and question my locate because the gas is actually fed from the back alley, not from your neighbour's garage, like you seem to think it does. It's not like I do this a dozen times a day, and have thousands of dollars of equipment, and have access to all the drawings from all the utility providers that show me where they are.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:06:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My old boss had a theory that it usually took 5 years for an employee to be 100% operational in all aspect of the work, my current boss says that any bloke with a high school diploma and 2 hours of training is ready to go 100%
Cameronam · 1 points · Posted at 19:21:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I wonder which boss stuck/will stick around longer
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:22:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The one kissing his boss's ass
mariottcourtyard · 2 points · Posted at 19:12:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"Critics are men who watch a battle from a high place, then come down and shoot the survivors " - E. Hemingway
silentkiln · 2 points · Posted at 19:12:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
@ every gaming community ever.
octoriceball · 1 points · Posted at 19:40:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Came here to say this.
"Why don't the devs ever implement this list of 1000 items I wanted changed that caters to my every whim? It's easy! They just need to sit in front of a few strings of code, type some shit in and magic happens! They don't do this because they have a personal vendetta against me and my original ideas!!"
silentkiln · 2 points · Posted at 19:41:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Giving ideas and suggestions is fine, getting mad when stuff doesn't change immediately is asinine.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:26:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Leans way the fuck over the espresso bar to say "Are you making that with whole milk?" Yes bitch, because it ain't your drink. Your drink will have nonfat, now get your ratchet cigarette breath out of my face, it's a health code violation.
Mariothemaster245 · 2 points · Posted at 15:39:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
People are above average at whatever job they do. Don't underestimate them.
realhorrorsh0w · 1 points · Posted at 18:12:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My mother has tried to tell me how to do every job I've ever had. Even though she never worked any of them.
Monkeymash99 · 1 points · Posted at 18:20:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But 90% of people do believe this, most of us have a bad as and feel like that
Monkeymash99 · 1 points · Posted at 18:21:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
*boss
rya556 · 1 points · Posted at 18:32:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Add to this: When you say what your new job entails and the response from someone in a totally different field says, "that's easy, I could do that"
PistolMama · 1 points · Posted at 18:38:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Or when someone who knows nothing about running a business wants to tell you how to run yours "better "
jimethn · 1 points · Posted at 18:42:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"If you were in their shoes.... you'd be doing the exact same thing, because then you'd have all of their experiences and perspective rather than your own!"
eddietwang · 1 points · Posted at 18:45:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
At my first job, we were told that if you were to say "That's not my job" while working, you'd be fired on the spot. Saw it happen to one guy two weeks in, never again.
Words_are_Windy · 1 points · Posted at 18:55:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It should be noted that they're not always wrong. Often, when someone is doing a job for a long time, technology improves and creates much more efficient ways to do the work, but workers who have grown used to an old system stick with it because of familiarity.
xelex4 · 1 points · Posted at 18:55:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I disagree with this. There are cases where the person is just completely inept and should not be in that position.
ArshamFarbod · 1 points · Posted at 18:55:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Plus waiting for others to do things you want done just makes it possible that you miss your chances in life.
nodnizzle · 1 points · Posted at 18:59:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
God people do this shit when you're trying to help with web design or SEO or anything really that's related to the internet/computers. Bitch, you hired me to help you not to run with your ideas that weren't working in the first place.
And then you get blamed when their website tanks and does less business than ever before.
teaching-man · 1 points · Posted at 19:01:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I have found that outsiders have a fresh perspective and are not entrenched in current systems.
dannixxphantom · 1 points · Posted at 19:02:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I work food service, as a cashier, but I spend several hours a day prepping food. I also am in charge of cleaning the entire dining room throughout service, along with other tasks. My little brother got pissy at me one day for saying I was tired because all I do is "stand around and take people's money". The collective family glare was enough to shut him up for the rest of dinner
StatikSquid · 1 points · Posted at 19:02:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't have a problem with doing someone else's job. It's when I repeatedly have to do it and other people get complacent despite me going over with them the importance of teamwork and doing equal work. Or you know return the favor once inside awhile
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:09:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"It's just working in a shop."
"It's just folding T-shirts."
FUCK OFF!
4Eights · 1 points · Posted at 19:11:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I always think about the episode of the Office where Dunder Mifflin is declaring bankruptcy and Oscar spends the whole episode bitching to anyone who will listen about how simple it would be to fix the company and run it properly. So later Michael calls Oscar up in front of the executives and asks him for his simple plan to get the business out of debt and fix everything. Oscar bumbles and ends up running out of the room without saying anything of substance.
BoyRichie · 1 points · Posted at 19:12:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think my least favorite phrasing of this is "I would have..." or "next time, this is what you do." Followed by something that would get me fired and is totally extra as hell. I don't need to "hold my clients accountable." I do hold them accountable, which is why I'm explaining cancellations to the same grown man every single week like he's never made an appointment before in his life.
alreadyawesome · 1 points · Posted at 19:14:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Accurate username
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:16:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In my experience, it actually IS easier to do stuff that other people request/demand - but good luck making the supervisors understand that.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:18:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This problem manifests itself to a large degree whenever the topic of law enforcement comes up on reddit, especially in threads about some story of alleged police misconduct. Reddit is just utterly derptastic when it comes to this.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:25:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
To be fair I've done other people's jobs, the reason they didn't do certain things was due to laziness
afqrzv · 1 points · Posted at 19:30:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just had this at work. "Why dont you just reset the password"
1) You're not an employee
2) There's no manager for the group account
3) I cannot verify you in our system
4) The password is set to never expire so its never changed so how is it wrong
there's always a list of reasons why we cant just "do it"
edit - formatting
outlawaol · 1 points · Posted at 19:30:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I once had a manager try and simplify our job with a one liner. It really pissed me off. No, sorry you don't get to do that to us. I do it 8hrs a day 5 days a week. Please tell me again how hard it is to be a manager and lets turn this table around so I can belittle your job to.
alegonz · 1 points · Posted at 19:33:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
For me, it's, "Why did I get my neighbor's mail?"
Everyone should have to be a postal carrier once.
cookiemonster_69_ · 1 points · Posted at 19:39:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Or proper manners.
debango · 1 points · Posted at 19:39:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My friend kind of does this, I'll mention something about how scientists aren't quite sure why we need sleep. She'll give her answer and say "that's probably why"... you're right! Because obviously the people studying the matter didn't think of what you said!!! Hell let's hire you to figure it out!
Yaa40 · 1 points · Posted at 19:41:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is happening to me these days.
I have a newer position that didn't exist before me and I'm going on a 2 week vacation, And I'm writing down the essentials. All of a sudden I understand the amount of things I take care of
Droolings · 1 points · Posted at 19:42:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
THIS. I am a photographer who uses a film camera and I was out with my girlfriend and asked her to pose yesterday to compose a creative shot. After 5 seconds, she says "Did you take it? Jeez you take so long. Is this how you are when you do weddings?"
I fucking snapped.
qazmoqwerty · 1 points · Posted at 19:47:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"[Company name] fix your game."
Camoral · 1 points · Posted at 19:50:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I've found that if you point out why what the person is doing is necessary/efficient, people get very angry. I didn't even think of myself as insulting somebody when I did it at first. It was just conversation to pass the time and guessing at possible causes. The usual response ended up being that I put too much thought in it and that I'm a jerk pointing it out. Essentially, they wanted to gripe, but thought that just settling for "This guy is a stupid asshole and I hate him because I have to wait," was too childish.
Austintothevoid · 1 points · Posted at 19:57:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The best example of this is professional sports. It's so comical to watch couch potatoes scream at the television as if they have any idea what it takes to do what they do. I am guilty of this myself with the minimal sports I watch.
maanofculture · 1 points · Posted at 20:15:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
As an airplane pilot I agree
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:09:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I generally find it much easier to do other people's jobs than to rely on them
Boondock_Billy · -1 points · Posted at 18:51:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The fact that this is upvoted so much shows that less than 90% misunderstand this
demarderollins · 12885 points · Posted at 14:17:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Which direction to move when someone is approaching you on a sidewalk.
PM_ME_YOR_PANTIES · 2309 points · Posted at 14:51:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you assume people drive how they walk, traffic makes more sense.
ADarkTwist · 1203 points · Posted at 16:27:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So basically driving is a higher stakes version of walking?
Chiakii · 836 points · Posted at 16:35:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If everyone followed the rules of driving while walking we wouldn't have these situations.
If we take a look at how certain people drive, however..
xj2379 · 586 points · Posted at 17:21:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If everyone followed the rules of driving while driving we would have a lot less traffic accidents.
ras344 · 31 points · Posted at 18:34:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Fewer
NoDoThis · 7 points · Posted at 19:29:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Easy Davos
-----_------_--- · 3 points · Posted at 19:35:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Stannis was first.
NoDoThis · 1 points · Posted at 19:53:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Davos was funny.
BaffourA · 1 points · Posted at 19:57:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
All hail Ser Davos, Hand of DaKingInDaNorf, funniest of his name
ohmyfsm · 5 points · Posted at 19:25:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
collisions
lyvanna · 1 points · Posted at 19:40:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What?
mandos20 · 3 points · Posted at 19:53:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you can count the number of things, you use fewer. You'll have fewer accidents.
If it's something like a liquid/non-quantified amount, you use less. I had less milk today.
lyvanna · -1 points · Posted at 20:08:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Woosh.
mandos20 · 2 points · Posted at 20:12:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
CRAP.
Jon did say what.
I have indeed been wooshed.
Sisyphus1066 · -1 points · Posted at 19:53:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Came here to say this. You beat me.
Absynthexx · 3 points · Posted at 18:09:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If everyone who drives drove the way cycles do, we'd have very few working cars.
Cyclists make BMW drivers look normal. That's fucking scary!
Biotrek · 4 points · Posted at 18:13:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If everyone on reddit wrote like people driving while texting, we would have a lot of cycles.
QuinceDaPence · 1 points · Posted at 20:54:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
BMW driver here, definitely everyone else that's the problem.
DrMobius0 · 1 points · Posted at 20:54:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah cyclists often seem to be under the impression that the rules of the road and things like right of way don't apply to them, despite being completely unprotected.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:59:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Man, i experience drivers doing crazy shit all the time. I'm in a wheelchair and when i go out, drivers constantly break road rules when they see me. Like stopping in the middle of the road so i can cross,when i could have just gone behind them if they'd kept going etc. I know people think they are being nice, but the majority of the time there is no actual benefit to me with what they are doing and their unpredictability is very dangerous. As a logical human being, i would prefer if people just followed the road rules instead of making a show of their generosity and selflessness so they can pat themselves on the back about being nice to a disabled girl
Jedimaster996 · 5 points · Posted at 18:10:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
-John Madden
wsteelerfan7 · 3 points · Posted at 18:23:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
-Michael Scott
Fn_Spaghetti_Monster · 2 points · Posted at 18:50:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
-Mitch Hedberg
klaproth · 4 points · Posted at 19:03:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
-Romans 4:20
PM_ME_YOR_PANTIES · 3 points · Posted at 19:10:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
-Greeks δ:βο
creynolds722 · 1 points · Posted at 19:13:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
-Austin 3:16
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:25:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
-Cthulhu
Fn_Spaghetti_Monster · 1 points · Posted at 19:46:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
-The Flying Spaghetti Monster
Ashes42 · 1 points · Posted at 19:13:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
teenagesadist · 2 points · Posted at 18:12:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If everyone followed the rules of traffic accidents we would have a lot less driving while we drive.
ThatOneGuy1294 · 1 points · Posted at 18:59:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
less traffic in general
ComradeBrosefStylin · 1 points · Posted at 19:13:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Good luck getting Audi and BMW drivers to fall in line.
Suicidal-Lysosome · 1 points · Posted at 19:45:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
r/theydidthemath
milesfortuneteller · 1 points · Posted at 19:46:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I grew up in North America and when my bf from the UK moved over he was always complaining about people bumping into him and was always really frustrated when we'd be walking downtown or pretty much anytime we'd be passing people. I couldn't figure out what was going on until I moved to his hometown and suddenly I was always accidentally bodychecking people and it seemed like no one knew how to walk past me. I wonder if it has anything to do with what side of the road we drive on maybe you're used to passing people on sidewalks this way too?
Cryhavok101 · 1 points · Posted at 21:18:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
FTFY :P
TheShadowKick · 1 points · Posted at 18:30:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I still get freaked out about people pretending the shoulder is an extra lane whenever someone turns left.
jimethn · 1 points · Posted at 18:40:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Another reason I'm looking forward to self-driving cars. AI doesn't get distracted, emotional, tired, intoxicated...
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 18:43:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If everyone would slow down to the pace of a walk while driving we'd have a lot less accidents.
Sisyphus1066 · 1 points · Posted at 19:54:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Fewer.
[deleted] · 5 points · Posted at 17:33:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I am in Canada and I always move to the right. And all the immigrants move to their left because they came here from shit countries so we just run into each other anyway. "Sorry!" [shoves you into mud]
Stef-fa-fa · 8 points · Posted at 18:03:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I usually step to the side and slow down to give others a chance to walk around me - unless of course I'm late for something important and you're sauntering around at half the average walking speed three people abreast. You'd better not act surprised when you're suddenly kissing the pavement in that case, with my crazy bitch-ass running past you screaming "SoooOooOoooorrryyyyyy!", trailing my purse behind me like a lunatic.
clamdiggin · 1 points · Posted at 18:40:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I find it is important and helpful to indicate the direction you are stepping in to avoid a collision. If I step right, I put my right arm forward and turn my body slightly to make it obvious which side they should pass.
If they step in the same direction as me, I find it best to just stop right there and wait for them to make the next move. Stepping the other way usually just initiates an awkward looking dance that ends with an embarrassed laugh or chuckle.
SwenKa · 2 points · Posted at 17:25:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This feels recursive, and I haven't taken cursive since 3rd grade.
iamdestroyerofworlds · 2 points · Posted at 17:21:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But we walk on the left side of the road, facing the traffic. Are we cars? Or are we human?
Alt_dimension_visitr · 7 points · Posted at 17:25:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Cumin. we are all just delicious seasoning.
iamdestroyerofworlds · 3 points · Posted at 17:36:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But which side of the road do tacos walk on?
zenith931 · 4 points · Posted at 18:05:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The delicious side.
meatsack70 · 2 points · Posted at 19:07:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
We are dancer.
kindcannabal · 2 points · Posted at 17:36:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Awe how sad, that brand new Mercedes didn't come with blinkers
PornulusRift · 1 points · Posted at 18:05:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If everyone followed the rules of driving when walking at intersections in hallways would be a mess, because there are no stop lights or stop signs.
AbeLincolnsFreckles · 1 points · Posted at 18:18:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
People can't even follow the rules of enter/exit doors at Walmart.
clamdiggin · 1 points · Posted at 18:35:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If these rules are implemented for pedestrians, will I be issued an obnoxious horn/klaxon to let people know that I am displeased when they decide to stop in the middle of the sidewalk, in the middle of a doorway, or at the top of an escalator.
hazie · 1 points · Posted at 18:48:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Fuck you man, my uncle was killed by a drink walker.
jimblenikrap · 1 points · Posted at 19:03:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But then you’d get German car owners walking an inch behind you whilst flashing a really powerful torch in your eyes.
aspalt_ · 1 points · Posted at 19:11:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So I need a driver's licence to walk?
ApotheounX · 1 points · Posted at 19:13:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Man, I don't want to have to make a u turn at the end of the aisle just so I can grab something off of the shelf in my left.
Nocturnalized · 1 points · Posted at 19:16:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I tried that once, but everyone on the freeway kept honking at me.
oreo368088 · 1 points · Posted at 19:46:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I thought this too, but it isn't very efficient to have stop signs in hallways and use turn signals while walking.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:39:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And really the only rule to remember is be aware of the traffic around you. The main problem as I experience every day is people being completely immersed in their own world. I get this will be the case with younger people (kids and teenagers) and older people, but there is no excuse for grown adults to be standing around looking at their phone in the middle of a busy walk traffic. This is especially true in subways and places of public transit.
Lord-Crimble · 1 points · Posted at 21:32:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I thought I was the only person who would say this! Earlier I was walking down the stairs to the train platform and a guy actually pushed my bag to get me to hurry up. I was thinking you wouldn't do that in a car would you! And when people in front of you don't look behind before weaving left and right, argh!
[deleted] · 4 points · Posted at 17:19:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
e-JackOlantern · 2 points · Posted at 18:17:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Based on the number of close calls I've had I think walking is the higher stakes version of driving.
PM_me_the_magic · 2 points · Posted at 16:49:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is why we don't have flying cars
hyper_vigilant · 2 points · Posted at 17:24:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Creating vehicles that can travel near-infinite axes which double as a blunt weapon or a bomb, then looking at the way people drive now...
flying cars are a horrifically bad idea.
DemiGod9 · 2 points · Posted at 17:24:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you can't drive in two dimensions, driving in 3 will be Hell!
the_murder_of_crowe · 1 points · Posted at 17:15:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Isn't that the idea? Efficiency at the cost of safety?
BankshotMcG · 1 points · Posted at 18:20:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, people tend to follow the driving laws of their nation.
...Which makes life good training for driving?
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:22:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[removed]
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:06:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
/r/showertoughts material here, solid solid
tapatioformytio · 1 points · Posted at 19:35:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Always check your blind spot when switching lanes
pvXNLDzrYVoKmHNG2NVk · 1 points · Posted at 19:38:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Being a pedestrian is probably more dangerous per mile traveled.
frisch85 · 21 points · Posted at 16:38:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's what I do. We drive on the right side here so if someone is coming my way from the opposite side, I walk by them on my right side so they can walk on their right side.
Tho I once got shouted at "why the hell I'm walking on the right side". Told that old guy "because that's also where we drive"...
why_rob_y · 3 points · Posted at 18:27:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I like to cut in front of people as we're walking and then start to slow down.
lyvanna · 1 points · Posted at 19:42:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In Norway we walk on the left side of the road, vehicles go on the right (including bikes). I usually just do that on sidewalks as well. Mostly because my dog is to my left and I don't want him in between us.
Shuk247 · 5 points · Posted at 16:43:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yep, that's how I work it. Most of the time it works fine... but there are those occasions where I think, I hope he doesn't drive like he walks.
PragmaticParadox · 3 points · Posted at 17:50:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In the US this seems to be the norm. Drive on the right and we walk on the right.
But in Europe I don't see people obeying this rule at all. Over there it appears a 50/50 coin toss as to which side of the sidewalk you'll use at any given interaction.
rsqejfwflqkj · 2 points · Posted at 18:55:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In the UK it's a tossup. Such a giant clusterfuck on the pavements.
On the continent, they're far better about going right. At least in the Northern and Western countries.
Though I will say, Italians walk how they drive... All over the goddamn place.
Chicken_Korma · 3 points · Posted at 17:57:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Unless you're in the UK, for some reason. You're great at queuing. You're not great at walking orderly. I still love ya, though.
But seriously. Figure that shit out. It isn't rocket science.
rsqejfwflqkj · 2 points · Posted at 18:56:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
They go and tell people to walk on the left, but then on the escalators you're supposed to stand on the right? And that's within the same tube station. Fuck, London, get your shit together!
johnvaljean · 1 points · Posted at 19:55:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
on what regards escalators, i've been told something along the lines of "you run through the left as well as cars do"
rsqejfwflqkj · 2 points · Posted at 07:21:00 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
But slower cars are on the left, you pass on the right, and if you're going to park, it's on the left...
That explanation makes no sense at all.
CptMurasa · 2 points · Posted at 16:57:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This makes most sense, and I thought it would be the common thing to do. The whole flow of pedestrian traffic is like this where I come from, you always walk on your right side (just like traffic on roads works here). Same for bicycles in case there is only a bikeway on one side of the road.
panchowarriortrilogy · 2 points · Posted at 17:26:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What happens when wal mart decides to make the door on the left the one you should walk trough to get in and out? Whether your entering or exiting, they have the door on the left. In america.....
1997cutegeek · 1 points · Posted at 17:55:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Actually, pedestrians should walk on the left side. The idea is that you don't ever want to have oncoming vehicle traffic behind you as you walk, so it's safer to walk "into traffic." Since this is how one should walk on the side of a road, it makes sense to simply use the same metric everywhere.
Sentrion · 6 points · Posted at 18:30:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That doesn't make sense. That logic only applies if everyone walks in one direction on a given side of a street. But in reality, people walk in both directions on both sides (and this makes a lot of sense for pedestrian traffic). Therefore, pedestrians should walk on the right side of the sidewalk to see oncoming traffic.
1997cutegeek · 1 points · Posted at 18:48:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Hm. I suppose the left side of the road would be the right side of the sidewalk.
Ma8e · 2 points · Posted at 17:58:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Except when you walk on the side of a road and there's no sidewalks. Then you always walk so that you see the traffic approaching. I.e., in North America you walk on the left side of the of the road to not be hit by a car from behind.
The same rule applies on a combined pedestrian bicycle path. You walk on the left side so you see the bicycles the approaching bicycles that pass closest to you.
Finally, why change the rule when there's no other traffic. Ergo, you always pass on the left when you walk.
HughJaynusIII · 2 points · Posted at 18:31:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yep.
I also turn my shoulders in the direction I'm going, even though I'm still walking straight forward. turn my upper body right, and the people read that they need to move to their right.
71hondascrambler · 2 points · Posted at 19:08:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think about this at Walmart almost every time. Didn't know it was possible to get road rage while walking but when someone stops to figure out what they are looking for they always seem to think it's a good idea to place their shopping cart diagonally across the lane. Fuck going anywhere to shop for things.
dankerific · 1 points · Posted at 17:54:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yea when I visit England everyone walks on the left. Back in America majority on the right.
rsqejfwflqkj · 1 points · Posted at 18:57:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You don't spend much time in London and surrounding areas, do you? It's a fucking mess. 50/50 tossup which side people will try for every time.
dankerific · 1 points · Posted at 21:47:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sorry for talking in generality. Same thing in the US. Just something I noticed when visiting family again I'm sorry.
_ech_ower · 1 points · Posted at 17:56:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ya I noticed this when I moved from India to America. Here I walk on the right side of the walkway to avoid incoming pedestrians. Over in India it was generally on the left side, although there are so many people that my main aim was to avoid head on collision.
Gibborim · 1 points · Posted at 18:05:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I guess my rule of walking straight through people who take a tight, blind left around a corner still stands in this context.
sunk818 · 1 points · Posted at 18:11:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
in some countries people drive on the left and right side of the road depending on the region you are in. my rule of thumb is to always yield early. be gracious. except when i'm in new york, i just try knock you down with a shoulder check if you're in my lane.
Violet_Club · 1 points · Posted at 18:30:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
driving is to walking like internet commenting is to real human contact. The increased anonymity behind the wheel, the lack of body language and verbal social cues causes every perceived slight to be magnified, and we do things driving we'd never do walking down a busy sidewalk.
PAYPAL_ME_DONATIONS · 1 points · Posted at 18:39:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But I don't see many people walking and texting at the same time.
PM_ME_YOR_PANTIES · 2 points · Posted at 18:41:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I see people walking and texting.
PAYPAL_ME_DONATIONS · 1 points · Posted at 18:47:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Joking. Implying that people spend too much time on their phones when driving.
Quajek · 1 points · Posted at 18:40:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But nobody fucking does
draykow · 1 points · Posted at 18:50:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So everyone I bump into is a tourist unless I'm the tourist, right?
whitedsepdivine · 1 points · Posted at 18:52:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I assume people walk as they drive.
Dr_Chappy13 · 1 points · Posted at 19:11:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Absolutley. Sometimes I feel like shopping carts should have brake lights and turn signals.
dillywin · 1 points · Posted at 19:15:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
or you make eye contact and then look where you plan to walk and smile. Works 90% of the time. 100% of the time if you just go to the right and do the same.
lf11 · 1 points · Posted at 19:17:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I walk the way people should drive, and walking is ever so much more straightforward.
fatman1426 · 1 points · Posted at 19:19:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If that's the case everyone I work with drives on the wrong side of the road. For some reason walking around the plant is opposite of driving.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:20:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
We do, that's the problem.
yepthatguy2 · 1 points · Posted at 19:20:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Except in Kansai, where everything is backwards, just because.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:25:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I realized this when I went to Japan and saw everyone opting to walk on the left side of the sidewalk and standing on the left side of escalators.
ChefChopNSlice · 1 points · Posted at 19:28:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So, everyone's texting?
speaktosumboedy · 1 points · Posted at 19:29:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Soooo on their phones?
Funkmonkey23 · 1 points · Posted at 19:42:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
As someone who has traveled, this generally works. In America, you walk on the right. In Sydney Australia, you walk on the left. But for some unknown reason this goes all to shit in London. Those people cross streets anywhere and weave between people in all damn directions.
ego1014 · 1 points · Posted at 19:51:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Until you go to Walmart. All that logic is thrown to the wind.
superdpr · 1 points · Posted at 19:53:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is why walking around London is impossible with such a mixture of locals and tourists.
theres_an_i_in_idiot · 1 points · Posted at 20:11:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So does this mean pedestrians need to substitute turn signals with their corresponding ass cheek?
Alice_In_Wonderland1 · 1 points · Posted at 06:27:24 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm just sprinting down the highway!
mewfahsah · 1 points · Posted at 18:23:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I found while I was at college international students from countries who drove on the left, walked on the left side while most everyone else walked on the right.
Lcat84 · 0 points · Posted at 18:04:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
God this... so many fucking idiots driving 2000 lbs of steel weapons.
drewsterdrewster · 14344 points · Posted at 15:20:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"ope"
edit: wow Gold! Thanks!!
Kanegawa · 4480 points · Posted at 17:38:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I've never actually seen that onomatopoeia written out before but have uttered it by default many a time.
Feels weird reading it.
zenith931 · 999 points · Posted at 18:04:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Right?! I think I know what noise they're talking about, but seeing it written out is so bizarre.
[deleted] · 26 points · Posted at 19:01:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Agreed! I'm trying to make this my default. That or I hand jester my direction.
Exzargon · 6 points · Posted at 19:50:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes, and when you're walking through a crowd just stick your hand out in the direction you want to go.
[deleted] · 22 points · Posted at 19:20:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I use this quite a bit even in texting. I spell it "ohp."
UndoingxRuin · 21 points · Posted at 19:24:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In Canada we say "oop"
just_play_one_on_tv · 18 points · Posted at 19:33:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Non Canadian, I identify with "oop", too.
WhiteHairedWidow · 4 points · Posted at 19:34:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What does oop mean?
AtroxDev · 14 points · Posted at 19:45:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Object-oriented programming - obviously
WhiteHairedWidow · 4 points · Posted at 19:47:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I honestly have no idea xD haha
anticommon · 2 points · Posted at 19:48:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The Canadian word oop is shorthand for oops which itself is shorthand for 'oop - sorry'
WhiteHairedWidow · 1 points · Posted at 19:49:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Okay cool thanks
just_play_one_on_tv · 2 points · Posted at 19:52:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It doesn't stand for anything, it's just a sound you make when correcting your trajectory.
WhiteHairedWidow · 1 points · Posted at 19:52:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ouhp?
zero_fox_actual · 1 points · Posted at 19:53:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I thought you said sorry?
Zero_teh_Hero · 0 points · Posted at 19:33:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Of course you do.
MaziforReal · 11 points · Posted at 19:26:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Can we all just universally move to OUR right?
TwistedRocker · 6 points · Posted at 20:01:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Australians keep left while driving, I do the same while walking. Keeping right would feel unnatural for me.
Can't be universal if countries have different road rules.
MaziforReal · 1 points · Posted at 20:13:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How about move in accordance to your state/country/continent's traffic laws. If you're in Antarctica y'all have to figure that out for yourself.
whenigetoutofhere · 3 points · Posted at 20:17:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Shit, if you run into 'traffic' in Antarctica, that's your own damn fault!
whenNrome69 · 2 points · Posted at 19:46:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You have become moderator of r/UniversalRules
JacobeyWitness · 3 points · Posted at 19:49:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Like the first time I read 'Welp'. Felt so weird first time I read it in my head but once I said it out loud it all made sense, and it has made its way into my text vocabulary.
anticommon · 2 points · Posted at 19:47:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I feel like it sounds like more of a €ou(p)™✓°
[deleted] · 61 points · Posted at 18:16:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
domnominico · 29 points · Posted at 19:04:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I always thought it was a combination of "oh" and "oops".
mysticrudnin · 1 points · Posted at 19:44:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
my theory is that it's something like "oh, sorry" or anything else starting with "oh" but then you realize that talking here is weird so you shut your mouth...
and hey, saying "oh" and quickly shutting your mouth is exactly how you'd say "ohp"
foxymcfox · 10 points · Posted at 19:07:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I mean, OPEN UP A SPOT ON THE SIDEWALK, I'M WALKING HERE!
Abbreviated as "Ope'"
ownworstenemy38 · 2 points · Posted at 19:10:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Take luck!
ehboobooo · 16 points · Posted at 18:13:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You look over the shoulder of the side you want to go, it will make them walk in the opposite direction most of the time
Throwawarky · 1 points · Posted at 19:52:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I angle my upper torso in the direction as well, it adds to the subconscious processing of my directional intent, even though my legs are still walking straight ahead.
mewfahsah · 84 points · Posted at 18:23:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Could easily go with "ohp"
--__--__--__--__-- · 14 points · Posted at 18:46:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think I prefer this one
zer0w0rries · 1 points · Posted at 19:44:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But this one makes me think of the short 'o' sound while the op made me read it with the long 'o' sound because of silent e.
Sypsy · 3 points · Posted at 19:18:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I like this better.
First one confused me for a while..."oh-pee"?
mewfahsah · 2 points · Posted at 19:21:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah I had to say it a few times and read more comments before I totally got it, I might be biased but I like mine better as well.
paggosduck · 3 points · Posted at 18:49:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Could be read as "awp"
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:14:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
VixDzn · 1 points · Posted at 19:19:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A double you pee
willukm · 7 points · Posted at 18:54:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Can someone explain? Never heard of this before... I just walk like we drive
TheLadyInReddit · 5 points · Posted at 19:17:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I once won a 5th grade spelling bee with that word!
Onomatopoeia, not ope.
maxjulien · 34 points · Posted at 18:07:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
now imagine this happening to 4 people all consecutively and then a 5th saying "Oppan Gangnam Style"
bloomingtontutors · 7 points · Posted at 18:23:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If someone mixed this video, I would subscribe to their channel.
Kanegawa · 11 points · Posted at 18:08:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Seems like a winning entry to r/youtubehaiku
123eyeball · 5 points · Posted at 18:31:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Someone call Gus Johnson
NiceGuyNate · 5 points · Posted at 18:25:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I type "ohp" but now I'm worried people just think I'm constantly having typos
Waadap · 3 points · Posted at 18:33:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This guy Minnesota's
Thatguyontrees · 2 points · Posted at 18:38:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Me and my friend say that all the time through text when something is a bit awkward
Davecantdothat · 1 points · Posted at 18:36:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I use "Ohpe." in texts like at least a few times a week.
iMightBeTheWalrus_ · 1 points · Posted at 18:51:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Weird, my friends and I have adapted this sound to be a common word in our mini vernacular (written over text and in speech). It's almost become and inside joke where we say/write "opppe!" when someone does or says something unexpected.
DumasThePharaoh · 1 points · Posted at 19:24:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, in fact I thought it was something I got from my French mom, a shortening of the common explanation oplà! Didn't know others did it as well
PM-ME-UR-DESKTOP · 1 points · Posted at 19:27:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I love using it in text
Ysmildr · 1 points · Posted at 19:29:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I write it as ohp
senior_swimmington · 1 points · Posted at 19:34:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's the word (sound?) I probably say the most but I never think about it
braelynjane · 1 points · Posted at 19:36:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I always write is as "ohp". Seeing it that way feels weird!
supervisord · 1 points · Posted at 19:44:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I actually say "oh"... Hmmm...
ohrightthatswhy · 1 points · Posted at 19:50:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I've literally never heard it before.
EatingSmegma · 1 points · Posted at 19:52:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Meanwhile, in Russian is a perfectly valid interjection. I thought in English people use 'oops.'
meowsasaurus · 1 points · Posted at 20:01:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I've always spelled it like "Ohp" in my head because the "oh" made it suggest confusion.
chowder138 · 0 points · Posted at 18:57:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I've always written it as "oht"
Indosay · 256 points · Posted at 17:55:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Where does this come from exactly? Does anyone know? I use it all the time but I have no idea why or what the fuck it even is.
MacNamedDre · 145 points · Posted at 19:12:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Probably a shortened oops.
Debug200 · 83 points · Posted at 19:17:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's like "oh" and "oops" mashed together and shortened.
"oh, woops"
"oh-oops"
"oh-oop"
"oh-p"
"ope"
shockwave414 · 66 points · Posted at 19:23:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
oppa gangnam style
SansGray · 14 points · Posted at 19:26:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Cue video of person awkwardly trying to get through a crowd
Daedalus871 · 5 points · Posted at 19:28:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Du Du Du Du Du Du D-Du
i-am-banana · 3 points · Posted at 19:29:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Du Du Du Du doo dooo
JustALuckyShot · 5 points · Posted at 19:42:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Is that Darude - Sandstorm?
Kered13 · 4 points · Posted at 20:08:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's "Oh" with the mouth shutting quickly. Like "No" -> "Nope" and "Yeah" -> "Yep".
jarejay · 2 points · Posted at 20:51:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is my favorite explanation so far.
telegetoutmyway · 3 points · Posted at 19:48:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think oh-p is where it should stop. Or ohp. But ope is not how I would spell it.
Debug200 · 1 points · Posted at 20:35:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Agreed. Just added "ope" because that's the comment that started this discussion.
chess_and_sex · 1 points · Posted at 20:57:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It means open
ikorolou · 3 points · Posted at 19:31:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
passed down from parent to child as is Midwest tradition /s
ndcapital · 2 points · Posted at 19:25:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"uhp-"
ricdesi · 1 points · Posted at 19:48:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"oops, sorry" -> "oopsorry" -> "ope sorry" -> "ope"
IM_FUCKING_SHREDDED · 21 points · Posted at 18:04:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
We are in the same boat
koinu-chan_love · 7 points · Posted at 19:30:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think it's a combination of "Oh!" and "Oops!".
Qweerz · 2 points · Posted at 19:40:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I agree. Oh because of surprise and oops because you almost run into them.
koinu-chan_love · 1 points · Posted at 20:53:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's what goes through my head when I say it.
FinalFantasyZed · 2 points · Posted at 19:32:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I honestly think it's not. I've seen it uttered in countries without those two words in their language. It's probably an instinctual thing.
dj_brizzle · 3 points · Posted at 19:35:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No -> Nope
Oh -> Ope
TTT_2k3 · 3 points · Posted at 19:36:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It started as oops. Then became oop. Now it's ope.
Help-Attawapaskat · 2 points · Posted at 19:27:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Weird thing is if someone goes "ope" most people in the room stop if they heard it.
__Jank__ · 2 points · Posted at 19:36:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
From Dr Strangelove of course!
Vaticancameos221 · 1 points · Posted at 20:00:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What scene is that from?
__Jank__ · 3 points · Posted at 20:16:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's General Ripper's code for the CRM 114 discriminator, to call back the nuclear bombers. Mandrake recovers it after Ripper kills himself.
Probably has nothing to do with anything here, but um... yep. :D
Pickled_Wizard · 2 points · Posted at 19:37:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think it's just in the DNA of white people.
Bucks_trickland · 2 points · Posted at 19:45:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's from me
Solid_Waste · 2 points · Posted at 19:46:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Gangnam style.
LOOKATMEDAMMIT · 2 points · Posted at 21:38:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I feel like it's pretty much a Midwestern thing. I've lived in Cali and never head it there.
MasterbeaterPi · 1 points · Posted at 20:20:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Gangnam style Ope ope ope open Gangnam style.
Intensejeguar4 · 1 points · Posted at 20:51:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
More of a combo between "Oh" and "Oops", not that either of those reeeeally have any meaning in a sidewalk duel.... Other than take the awkwardness of both people not knowing how to walk out of the situation, and direct attention towards what's being heard, and imediately in front of them
AN0NASP0SSIBLE · 1 points · Posted at 19:27:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Seems to be an archaic form of open
BourgeoisBitch · 2087 points · Posted at 16:26:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Midwestern af.
nematoad86 · 1210 points · Posted at 17:23:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
i'm from the east coast and i use "ope" all the time
[deleted] · 1253 points · Posted at 17:32:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Agreed, it's either "ope" or something like "whup".
delta_14 · 752 points · Posted at 17:38:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Humans are weird
Feynization · 30 points · Posted at 18:13:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's the human equivalent of "If page doesn't load, click refresh"
313fuzzy · 9 points · Posted at 18:49:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Now that is something 90% of us can agree on.
4rch1t3ct · 2 points · Posted at 18:52:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
/r/totallyrobots
cowboydirtydan · 1 points · Posted at 19:17:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
*NOT
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:30:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
HELLO FELLOW CARBON BASED LIFE FORM! IT SURE IS GOOD TO BE A HUMAN, IS IT NOT?
cowboydirtydan · 3 points · Posted at 19:31:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
**** YEAH BABE
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:37:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
WOULD YOU LIKE TO GO OUT AND DRINK FERMENTED VEGETABLE LIQUIDS WITH ME THIS EVENING?
cowboydirtydan · 2 points · Posted at 21:02:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
DA DETKA
4rch1t3ct · 1 points · Posted at 19:34:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
/r/totallynotrobots
hemptations · 2 points · Posted at 19:40:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is truly bizarre. I just spent about five minutes recollecting how many times I've done this subconsciously.
Not_Harrison · 361 points · Posted at 17:38:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Mine's more of an "oop". Got it from my dad.
LeftyLayns · 11 points · Posted at 17:49:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I rock the "oit" and just "oi" to get somebody's attention. Got it from Harry Potter.
[deleted] · 6 points · Posted at 18:22:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Mine's more of a "Fuck outta my face, pal." Got it from my dad too.
SpooningThemSoftly · 7 points · Posted at 18:51:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Goddammit, I'm sitting here making all the noises in this thread to myself like some kind of ape. Or Link.
KrackerJoe · 3 points · Posted at 19:18:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Mines a "yooope" I got it from the legend of zelda.
Obsidian_Veil · 2 points · Posted at 18:38:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
'Ey up!
Maenad_Dryad · 2 points · Posted at 19:03:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I say "oup." Grew up in Michigan.
cubsin5 · 2 points · Posted at 19:22:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This comment would be hilarious without any context.
magratheansun · 2 points · Posted at 19:34:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Thanks guys, now I'm sitting here on the porch saying "ope" and "oop" and "whup" to myself
witisnotmyforte89 · 2 points · Posted at 19:35:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oop there it is!
EmergeAndSee · 2 points · Posted at 20:02:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Mine too
wtjordan1s · 1 points · Posted at 18:53:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yep it's from the dads, not a midwest thing a dad thing.
no_prehensilizing · 2 points · Posted at 19:00:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No, I do the same, but it's from my mom.
YerDaDoesTheAvon · 6 points · Posted at 18:09:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm a definite "oop"
Calitalian · 6 points · Posted at 18:43:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What about the barely audible thanks people do when you hold a door open for a stranger?
convo_casual · 9 points · Posted at 18:50:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"..ks"
janellestr · 4 points · Posted at 19:07:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"hhnks" *waist height hand gesture
Lysdexic_Nijna · 22 points · Posted at 17:52:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I usually say "whoopsie doodles"
[deleted] · 7 points · Posted at 18:04:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Where are you from? I've only ever heard whoopsie daisies
grundalug · 4 points · Posted at 17:58:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You're my favorite kind of person
Passerine_ · 3 points · Posted at 18:16:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'd probably stop to thank him for making my day a little better
perpterts · 3 points · Posted at 18:15:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I do a weird little bowing of the head / avoid eye contact with them as I give a "whup" or "ope". I use em interchangeably.
Honchenski · 2 points · Posted at 18:06:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Can I get an 'ope, ope'?
Alamander81 · 2 points · Posted at 18:17:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm from the school of "whup" but I also understand the rules of the sidewalk match the rules of the road for any given country. And always pass people on the left.
DodoDude700 · 2 points · Posted at 18:29:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Canadian, we also say ope.
pug_grama2 · 1 points · Posted at 18:59:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Also Canadian. I say oops.
jenamac · 1 points · Posted at 18:16:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I use whup all the time unless carrying/pulling something heavy. Then it's ope. Because. Y'know. Nuance.
megveg · 1 points · Posted at 18:30:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Where I live, it's more of a "hut" and the t is overly percussive so it makes it sound like there's impact when there's definitely not.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:35:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"ope, whup, hey, ho"
peese-of-cawffee · 1 points · Posted at 19:08:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Texas here, we whup around these parts.
Space_Polan · 1 points · Posted at 19:13:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I give out a hearty 'whoop'
Ughhhh_ok · 1 points · Posted at 19:14:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Perfect.
gigajesus · 1 points · Posted at 19:23:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Mines more of a "fuck"
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 20:30:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'll try that next time. If I just kinda misjudge which way someone's going... "FUCK!" and walk by.
gigajesus · 1 points · Posted at 01:26:26 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Gets em every time!
Top_Drawer · 1 points · Posted at 19:27:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Thanks for shopping with us today
You too!
MedicMoth · 1 points · Posted at 19:32:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
'ohp'
Hates_escalators · 1 points · Posted at 19:36:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I went to the Wisconsin state fair yesterday and I accidentally bumped into someone, and we both said oop at the same time, and then I apologized.
bonedead · 1 points · Posted at 19:38:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
lol, fucking both of them.
AssholeBot9000 · 1 points · Posted at 19:42:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Uhp!
Midwest.
ExclusivelyPlastic · 1 points · Posted at 21:15:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, I say "whup" all the time. I basically just mutter it over and over whenever I'm walking through a crowd. Sometimes I catch myself and realize I must sound like a psycho, but then I realize that nobody really cares.
Feynization · 1 points · Posted at 18:12:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Irish here. I say "up". didn't realise until now.
blackflag209 · 5 points · Posted at 18:07:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
From California here and I use it all the time, even with inanimate objects
nematoad86 · 1 points · Posted at 18:37:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
like when you drop something yea i totally do that too
Ciellon · 5 points · Posted at 18:11:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
From the west coast. Also use 'ope'.
sloppycee · 3 points · Posted at 19:22:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm from Canada, we just say "sorry".
randomhero98 · 1 points · Posted at 19:44:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ontario parents but raised in BC, I say "ope sorry heh" though I'm also painfully awkward.
[deleted] · 7 points · Posted at 17:58:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm from the UK and we always use it as well.
sponge_welder · 14 points · Posted at 17:27:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah this isn't a Midwestern thing
mealsonwheels06 · 2 points · Posted at 18:05:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not exclusively
lcfparty15 · 3 points · Posted at 19:18:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm from the south and I say it too.
Cosmic_Quasar · 5 points · Posted at 18:02:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The Midwestern agenda is spreading. Cackles maniacally
Burnaby · 3 points · Posted at 18:01:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Same, and I'm from Nova Scotia
[deleted] · 4 points · Posted at 18:08:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
pug_grama2 · 1 points · Posted at 19:00:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I always include the s. oops.
Jewsafrewski · 1 points · Posted at 18:21:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Inland NorthWest, same here
sphinctaltickle · 1 points · Posted at 18:29:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Im from the UK and always say it, usually followed by "sorry". I'd spell it "owp" though
I_CRY_WHEN_JIZZING · 1 points · Posted at 18:29:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
PA checkin in
TheFlashFrame · 1 points · Posted at 18:48:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Californian. Ope is part of my daily vocabulary.
SwellSeason · 1 points · Posted at 18:54:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Texan here, ope it up daily
Kloc34 · 1 points · Posted at 18:54:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
West coast Oper checking in
Sp0wnjb0b · 1 points · Posted at 18:54:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
West and I use t
RixMixed · 1 points · Posted at 18:54:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Everybody ope's
r1ddler · 1 points · Posted at 18:56:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Slovenian here. I make the same exact sound as well. What gives
Hillo1212 · 1 points · Posted at 18:56:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Brit checking in, make the same noise
Solaris_Dawnbreaker · 1 points · Posted at 19:06:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
South Texas here and say that too.
KenEarlysHonda50 · 1 points · Posted at 19:07:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Lad, I'm Irish and its "ope" or "o-ha"
Georgiafrog · 1 points · Posted at 19:14:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Southeast does it.
Yeti100 · 1 points · Posted at 19:40:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Seattleite and frequent ope sayer here.
typhyr · 1 points · Posted at 19:41:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
washington my whole life, i use "oop." like oops but no s.
dudenotcool · 1 points · Posted at 19:41:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
User from the south
some_clickhead · 1 points · Posted at 19:52:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm from Canada and I also say it... I think it's just instinctive.
ItsSansom · 1 points · Posted at 20:37:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
UK here, I've Oped with the best of them
TokinBlack · 1 points · Posted at 22:17:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm from California and... what the fuck?
boastfulkale · 1 points · Posted at 17:56:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Same and I'm on the west coast
AdventurePee · 1 points · Posted at 18:03:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm from the midwest and have no idea what this is
pug_grama2 · 1 points · Posted at 19:01:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oops.
[deleted] · 15 points · Posted at 17:58:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not really, we even say it all the time in the UK.
Natdaprat · 5 points · Posted at 18:47:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah I was just thinking. It's one of our sounds too!
D3ATHfromAB0V3x · 7 points · Posted at 18:16:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
west coast here and I say that every time.
xx3dgxx · 6 points · Posted at 18:07:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
California checking in, we do it too
HellaBrainCells · 5 points · Posted at 18:37:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well in Illinois we just shoot each other when this happens. Seems only fair. We both know we shouldn't be walking outside
BourgeoisBitch · 1 points · Posted at 11:19:32 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yaaassss.
SH4Z4M · 7 points · Posted at 17:53:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Nahhh, ope is everywhere. Ope is universal.
pug_grama2 · -1 points · Posted at 19:04:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No, it's oops. I've never heard "ope" (rhyme with hope) in my life.
oops rhymes with hoops.
IAmA_Goldfish · 2 points · Posted at 17:57:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm from California and I use Ope daily.
Elturiel · 2 points · Posted at 18:46:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Pnw here. Say this daily.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:24:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Torontonian here and its muttered under my breath every single time I use the subway
pedantic_piece_of_sh · 2 points · Posted at 18:46:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm from the south and use it.
o_opc · 1 points · Posted at 18:59:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oh no have I been fueling this stereotype my whole life
DerFeJuKi · 1 points · Posted at 19:07:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm German and use it
cantmeltsteelmaymays · 1 points · Posted at 19:07:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Netherlands here, same thing. Either that or "ho".
fuckswithyourhead · 1 points · Posted at 19:08:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I've been so self conscious of it ever since I saw it first addressed a few months back. I'm so guilty.
TheRealBananaWolf · 1 points · Posted at 19:26:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Pretty sure it's just something people say naturally. Unless it's just midwestern and alabama and nobody else...
UnrealJake · 1 points · Posted at 19:30:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I didn't think Scotland was in the Midwest.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:40:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
From the northwest and I "ope" all day
sundbear · 1 points · Posted at 20:39:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
As a minnesotan living in Los Angeles, I feel like a country bumpkin whenever I say this.
RunHomeJack · 2 points · Posted at 17:47:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
had no idea i was special cuz this
BananApocalypse · 6 points · Posted at 18:03:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You're not (well not because of this). At least the entirety of Canada and the US says it. Probably elsewhere too.
RunHomeJack · 3 points · Posted at 18:05:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
thank god, mom was right
Gnarok518 · 1 points · Posted at 18:16:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm from the Midwest and have no idea what you're referring to.
BourgeoisBitch · 1 points · Posted at 18:20:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That thing you do when you're trying to negotiate around somebody, and it just ends up awkwardly coming out as "Ope, sorry".
Gnarok518 · 1 points · Posted at 18:44:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oh shit, duh. I always thought of it as a contracted version of 'whoops', so that onomotopeia threw me off
roadrunnuh · 0 points · Posted at 17:56:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I say it and I havent been home in 14 years.
WatsBlend · 0 points · Posted at 18:51:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I agree, i'm Kansas af and the sound I hear when I read "ope" is a very midwestern thing in my mind.
BasicsUnite · 79 points · Posted at 17:33:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
*ohp
Jlw2001 · 13 points · Posted at 18:02:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
*oop
BasicsUnite · 3 points · Posted at 18:28:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't think I would ever think that was /op/. I would think 'oop' would rhyme with poop.
Jlw2001 · 3 points · Posted at 19:12:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It do
D14BL0 · 2 points · Posted at 19:21:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oppa Gangnam style
linkseyi · 1 points · Posted at 19:02:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
*procedural
Burnaby · 4 points · Posted at 18:00:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's the same sound. In IPA: /op/
BasicsUnite · 3 points · Posted at 18:27:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes, I know, I was correcting the spelling http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=OHP
Although, as "slang", if that's what it's best described as, spelling is arguable
[deleted] · 75 points · Posted at 18:00:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
[deleted] · 4 points · Posted at 19:38:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's cute I'll have to remember that next time I get in someone's way x)
isharted23 · 2 points · Posted at 19:45:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
TIL Michael Scott is reincarnated Anne Bancroft
Peekmeister · 2 points · Posted at 19:58:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That sounds like something Jerry Smith would say.
Unusualmann · 30 points · Posted at 18:01:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
opes are ohio's biggest export
luke45637 · 7 points · Posted at 19:16:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Live in Ohio and am awkward, so I use this term multiple times a day. Can confirm.
[deleted] · 5 points · Posted at 19:36:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
LUSTY_BALLSACK · 5 points · Posted at 20:00:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No matter how many upvotes this gets, it will still be underrated.
lol_camis · 21 points · Posted at 18:10:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm candian and here it's actually "ope, sorry"
[deleted] · 6 points · Posted at 18:44:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Followed by a swift "eh"
vadan · 14 points · Posted at 18:10:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What does this mean?
draykow · 18 points · Posted at 18:48:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Took me a while, too.
I think they're referring to the sound that's synonymous with "whoops" or "oops" that a large number of people tend to make when they accidentally bump into someone else or have a close call (like when passing on a sidewalk).
I'm from California and I tend to add a w sound at the beginning ("whoops" without the s sound). Others I've known tend to say "upp" or the first syllable of "uh-oh" when doing the same.
vadan · 3 points · Posted at 20:03:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ah, Thank you. East coaster and normally 'whoops' or 'oops' is what I hear too.
Quackman2096 · 7 points · Posted at 17:53:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Wow I've never felt this strongly about something I do all the time. I do this when I bump something too
EricBardwin · 7 points · Posted at 18:37:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"Gangnam style!"
bestmex · 10 points · Posted at 17:37:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
South as well. Did that today.
Pix3lPwnage · 3 points · Posted at 17:45:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"Olé!"
DaMarcusPimpCane · 3 points · Posted at 18:14:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In the Netherlands people often "ho" Might get awkward in English speaking countries
VerifiedMadgod · 3 points · Posted at 19:05:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I thought it was "oop"
washufize · 19 points · Posted at 16:57:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
found the midwesterner! (never knew this was a midwestern thing until recently)
Gunnvor91 · 24 points · Posted at 17:11:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"ope" as in "oops"? Then you both change directions? 'Cause we do that in Canada too. At least I do, and I'm from Manitoba.
[deleted] · 33 points · Posted at 17:22:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
camaroXpharaoh · 4 points · Posted at 17:42:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I do it in Washington state. I think it's something everybody says/does when they almost run into somebody.
[deleted] · 4 points · Posted at 17:25:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I do that in Cali
AbeLincolnsFreckles · 11 points · Posted at 18:20:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Cali's just a bigger, earthquakeier Midwest.
[deleted] · 5 points · Posted at 18:24:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Everything is the Midwest
SwenKa · 12 points · Posted at 17:26:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Essentially, just a really short version of "Oops." Usually accompanied by a knowing smile and/or head nod.
Gunnvor91 · 3 points · Posted at 17:35:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oh OK. Then yeah, we certainly do this in Canada as well.
derpaperdhapley · 2 points · Posted at 17:55:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I defintely say the singular oop vs ope which would sound like nope minus the n.
furdterguson27 · 20 points · Posted at 17:29:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah everyone does it it's definitely not a regional thing
boganhobo · 1 points · Posted at 18:46:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Aussie here, I say it too.
RedditViewer1234 · 1 points · Posted at 20:34:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
We do that over in Scotland too.
Epicsharkduck · 6 points · Posted at 17:43:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I never would have thought in my life that this isn't something everyone does
inEQUAL · 3 points · Posted at 17:45:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I was born and raised in the American Southeast. I say it. It may be predominantly regional, but it's not strictly so.
I_ate_a_milkshake · 1 points · Posted at 19:23:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
southerner here too, say it all the time.
dongasaurus · -1 points · Posted at 17:56:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It most definitely is not regional to say 'oops' when you walk into someone and then move out of the way... it's basic human behavior.
DuceGiharm · 4 points · Posted at 18:17:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
it's not "oops" it's "UHP" or "ope"
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:32:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Those are regional variations of the same thing. In parts of Canada, it might be "sorry" (or "sorey") instead.
Realtrain · 1 points · Posted at 19:24:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I hear it all time time here in New England.
jewzak · 2 points · Posted at 18:12:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
https://twitter.com/Jewzak/status/818893861447667712
Cirbstomp · 2 points · Posted at 18:20:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I prefer "ohp" but to each his own
DuckDuckBoson · 2 points · Posted at 18:21:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Woah. That hit a little close to home.
CFSparta92 · 2 points · Posted at 18:23:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This will be emblazoned across my tombstone.
sqqueen · 2 points · Posted at 18:26:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Half "oh" and half "oops"
Three_Fig_Newtons · 2 points · Posted at 18:38:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Fun fact, BEES make the same noise when they bump into each other
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U05VXQRFhns
Well it's more of a WHOOP I suppose
CryptMonkey · 3 points · Posted at 19:14:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
BEADS??
manatca · 2 points · Posted at 19:30:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Gob's not on board
starrstreet · 1 points · Posted at 19:27:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Gobs not on board
Hek_Yea · 2 points · Posted at 19:04:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
oof
JamminJames_ · 2 points · Posted at 17:50:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In Canada we say "oop" in this situation.
Horforia · 3 points · Posted at 18:28:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Is there no XKCD for this!? I thought there was an XKCD for everything, but I can't find one that relates to this in any way.
HydzVance · 1 points · Posted at 17:18:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This happens to me all the time.
quantasmm · 1 points · Posted at 17:42:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Can confirm. I do this.
HonestConman21 · 1 points · Posted at 17:46:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah you know me!
letsgobruins · 1 points · Posted at 17:51:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ha! That's the noise, alright.
jckohler · 1 points · Posted at 18:03:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So. Accurate.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:12:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This has been the default thing I say for as long as I can remember!
lgbtqwerty · 1 points · Posted at 18:13:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I had no idea anyone else did this! I'm from Canada, and I see other Canadians in this thread have noticed it, but I've never heard anyone else make the "ope" noise in my area, so I have no idea where I picked it up from... So weird.
packersmcmxcv · 3 points · Posted at 18:28:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Walking through the Tims airlock as someones going the other way
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:35:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This makes me feel so validated
GoAheadAndH8Me · 1 points · Posted at 18:37:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Purity of essence.
dungeon_plastered · 1 points · Posted at 18:38:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't like seeing this. I say and do this all the time. This made me realize how often I do it.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:41:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Hahahaha, that's my go to goofy reaction.
1virgil · 1 points · Posted at 18:43:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Christopher Reeves nailed this as Superman when he gave up his powers.
dccox7 · 1 points · Posted at 18:49:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I thought I was the only one
TeamLongbottom · 1 points · Posted at 18:51:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And here I thought I was the only awkward human that makes the 'ope' sound when about to run into someone. Combo of nope and oops perhaps?
TribeOnAQuest · 1 points · Posted at 18:51:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Wow
PoorEdgarDerby · 1 points · Posted at 18:52:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ewwwwp.
b7d · 1 points · Posted at 19:01:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Stewie would say "ohp"
callernumber03 · 1 points · Posted at 19:02:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The most midwestern utterance
The_Canadian_Devil · 1 points · Posted at 19:03:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
purity of essence
shenanigins · 1 points · Posted at 19:04:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm starting to notice that I say that a few dozen times on a daily basis. I need to come up with an alternative. Maybe actual words, who knows.
Lateasusual_ · 1 points · Posted at 19:07:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I've somehow managed to dig my self into the habit of saying "woah there" in mccree's voice... it started as a joke and now i do it without even thinking
kthxtyler · 1 points · Posted at 19:09:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"ahn Gangnam Style"
Choke_then_Stroke · 1 points · Posted at 19:10:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Scuse me
raven-jade · 1 points · Posted at 19:11:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
West coast checking in, I do this too.
coolasafool462 · 1 points · Posted at 19:14:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
https://youtu.be/dHjK2JaJS1M
nuggetboom · 1 points · Posted at 19:17:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Please explain ope. I must be slow.
EspressoMexican · 1 points · Posted at 19:18:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You just got gilded for 3 letters...
ngknick · 1 points · Posted at 19:18:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm thinking it's an abbreviated whoops or oops.
Dog_Diligence · 1 points · Posted at 19:18:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
does a little dance
manluther · 1 points · Posted at 19:19:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In Minnesota I've heard my fair share of "oof ta" when running into someone psychically, especially in the cities.
scaffelpike · 1 points · Posted at 19:20:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What does ope mean??? O_o
rieuxdy · 1 points · Posted at 19:24:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This made my day. Thanks!
CusterdCube · 1 points · Posted at 19:25:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I didn't understand until I said it out loud and then I realised I was that guy
Lucidq · 1 points · Posted at 19:27:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
HAHAHAH
LeConqueror23 · 1 points · Posted at 19:28:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Poor Opie. : (
RoosterClan · 1 points · Posted at 19:28:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is freaking poetry. Things that you don't even realize you feel and say until you see it written down.
Beautiful.
I_Love_TIFU · 1 points · Posted at 19:28:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ope delivered!
grobo555 · 1 points · Posted at 19:29:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
ope
loki1983mb · 1 points · Posted at 19:30:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Gangnum style.
sweetcuppingcakes · 1 points · Posted at 19:32:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
r/UnexpectedOpe
Nixinova · 1 points · Posted at 19:32:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Wth is ope
TwistedxRainbow · 1 points · Posted at 19:35:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
TIL I'm not the only one who does this.
manosrellim · 1 points · Posted at 19:43:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'll ask here, because this is the top comment. What is OPE?
Chaseism · 1 points · Posted at 19:47:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
For those who don't get the reference...
http://99wfmk.com/ope4michigan/
phillychee · 1 points · Posted at 19:48:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's more of a "wope" for me...
jimbojangles1987 · 1 points · Posted at 19:50:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Lol yup
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:53:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Noooooo Idea What anyone is talking about. Reddit is so American sometimes
ocean365 · 1 points · Posted at 19:53:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Fuck, this is way too true
doihavemakeanewword · 1 points · Posted at 19:54:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How do other people pronounce this? I pronounce it like a muffled "up".
randymarsh18 · 1 points · Posted at 19:56:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Wtf is ope 😂😂
kandepohe · 1 points · Posted at 19:59:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sorry i don't understand this!?
F19Drummer · 1 points · Posted at 20:16:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I got more of a higher pitched "oop" thing going on.
MasterbeaterPi · 1 points · Posted at 20:19:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ope Ope Open Gangnam Style
SadGhoster87 · 1 points · Posted at 20:23:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"there goes gravity"
Hachfredditor · 1 points · Posted at 21:09:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
All the time (from Canada if that matters)
Onyournrvs · 914 points · Posted at 15:19:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Look down at the area you are moving toward. People tend to look at where your eyes are focused to gauge where you're going and will adjust to avoid you. Works most of the time.
beepbloopbloop · 447 points · Posted at 15:36:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is the right answer. If you look purposefully where you're going people will get out of your way.
VaelinX · 18 points · Posted at 18:45:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But then you look at the oncoming person's eyes... and they are looking to you to see where you are going. Now you hold each other's gaze, firm in the knowledge that you both are purposefully walking toward each other - as that is where your gazes are locked.
You both seem to make a motion to turn, but hesitate. If you continue on this path you will collide with each other; but, now that you consider colliding with this stranger on the street, you are not longer sure that you wish to avoid that course of action.
This person, this stranger. So familiar, yet separate from you. We all seek that out - another, separate person that we understand intimately. And so you stay the course, this collision course with this attractive and familiar stranger on the street.
And then. Right before your faces meet, as you are considering what to do: do you speak? No. Better to act and not ruin this perfect moment of connection. As you are face to face, you can hear their breath, see the lines on their lips, count the freckles under their eyes... you smash your forehead into the mirror. What asshole leaves a mirror standing in the middle of a sidewalk anyway? We walk with our eyes up to avoid this bullshit!
Basgerin · 2 points · Posted at 19:24:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Are you me? I also do this to random comments.
VaelinX · 2 points · Posted at 19:41:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Perhaps, unless you are me. I started to make a real comment, then got distracted with a simulation I was running... when I came back I decided to have fun finishing it.
Jirb30 · 2 points · Posted at 19:24:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is damn good r/Unexpected material.
eye_of_the_sloth · 3 points · Posted at 18:56:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If they still don't seem to get it, there's a great trick, grab their red and white stick and yell "I'm walking here... What are u blind or something?!? "
That should work
[deleted] · 5 points · Posted at 17:37:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
until some fat bitch runs into you and says, "you're on the 'wrong side' of the sidewalk," which happened to me the other day. She got plowed-into by me and a friendly, "Watch it, lady!!" Canada is so polite.
j33pwrangler · 7 points · Posted at 17:58:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you plant your feet, she's charging. Just like in basketball.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 18:55:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And instead of a referee calling out a foul you just call out a cunt.
SidearmAustin · 6 points · Posted at 18:46:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you were on left side of the sidewalk in the States you were on the wrong side.
drumstyx · 4 points · Posted at 18:07:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Were you on the left side? Because that is the wrong side.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 18:08:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
drumstyx · 8 points · Posted at 18:22:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No, but really, you should walk like you'd drive. After all, the side we drive on generally derives from walking customs.
Aging_Shower · 3 points · Posted at 18:33:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Only when there's a side walk right?
When walking on a road you want to walk on the opposite side so you can see the cars closest to you approach. If there isnt enough room for you when two cars pass each other you will be able to notice and get out of the way. That's a lot harder if you walk on the same side as cars drive on because they will come from behind.
marpocky · 2 points · Posted at 20:07:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not talking about which side of the road to walk, but rather which half of the sidewalk (or any where you're walking).
If you drive on the right, imagine dividing the sidewalk into 2 "lanes" and walk on the right one there as well.
gigajesus · 0 points · Posted at 19:26:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yup, walk opposite, cycle same.
probably2high · 1 points · Posted at 18:31:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Forbidden? No, but if we're trying to establish fault, that's probably a good place to start.
experipotomus · 2 points · Posted at 18:16:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I actually do the exact opposite after reading some "psychology lifehack" thread a couple years ago. If I am walking down the sidewalk and a group of people are coming towards me taking up the whole sidewalk I purposely turn my head to make it look like I am not watching where I am going. Bc of my sunglasses they just can't tell that I am still watching. Every time they will move out of the way. I think since they believe you aren't paying attention they have to take it upon themselves to avoid the collision.
gigajesus · 3 points · Posted at 19:28:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I usually just stop when I'm right in front of them giving them the option of running into me or going around. Kinda a dick move but I get tired of this shit
meltedlaundry · 1 points · Posted at 17:30:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oddly enough I saw a video on youtube that demonstrates this phenomenon.
II-o-II · 1 points · Posted at 18:26:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I do this and it works but then it looks like I'm deliberately ignoring the person. I mean I probably am but it just feels more rude...
asbelowsoabove · 1 points · Posted at 18:36:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yep, pick one and stick with it.
foxymcfox · 1 points · Posted at 19:10:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Living in NYC says that is not true. I am a battering ram of intention when I walk, but that doesn't always work in Midtown at 5:30.
If I walk through a small city though, I never have problems, not because I can walk with more purpose, but because there's more space and I just go around people more easily.
beepbloopbloop · 3 points · Posted at 19:12:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Dealing with tourists is a totally different matter. I turn into a ninja ducking and weaving through slow walkers in Midtown.
foxymcfox · 1 points · Posted at 20:48:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Even when dealing with locals. People just don't pay attention.
I'm like you though. I've had colleagues see me out and about and they've all agreed, i am like "bullet out of a gun" just going at full speed, spinning around people, ducking and weaving. It's like a sport after a while.
gigajesus · 1 points · Posted at 19:24:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I usually stare into the eyes directly of whoever is walking towards me.
Seems like people always get out of my way no problem!
its_minmin · 1 points · Posted at 19:27:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Then you hit them with the curveball and move the opposite way
simcowking · 2 points · Posted at 20:47:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yell spin move as you do it.
papercutpete · 1 points · Posted at 19:54:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's simple, really simple....everyone should just stay to their right side as when driving. Just go to your right, the other person does as well.
[deleted] · 202 points · Posted at 16:01:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Naniwayuri · 130 points · Posted at 17:38:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I have something similar going on in supermarkets, where I seem to be the only person aware of the fact that 2 people can't exist simultaneously in the same space.
zdakat · 12 points · Posted at 17:50:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"let me park my basket on one side,then walk to the other side so I'm taking up both spaces,and chat with someone in person or on the phone"
Seicair · 3 points · Posted at 19:39:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not just on one side, but about a foot away from the shelves and at an angle, taking up as much of the aisle as possible!
313fuzzy · 4 points · Posted at 18:51:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
OMG Some people are so unaware of their surroundings.
IkeHC · 2 points · Posted at 19:33:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I work at a Supermarket as well, and I say "Woop, 'scuse me" over 50 times a shift.
Tactically_Fat · -4 points · Posted at 18:55:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
They can.
As long as the time isn't the same.
spicewoman · 4 points · Posted at 19:20:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Naniwayuri · 2 points · Posted at 19:29:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So not simultaneously.
anachronic · 6 points · Posted at 18:24:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Something similar happens to me when I'm walking behind people and trying to get around.
I'll start moving to the right so I can pass them, and without fail, they drift to the right, blocking me. Then I'll start moving to the left... and they start drifting that way too.
I don't know if it's conscious or not, but it happens frequently enough to be annoying.
spencerAF · 2 points · Posted at 19:19:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You're not a pedestrian magnet, there's just a lot of really dumb people
corobo · 2 points · Posted at 05:39:55 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Are you also doing this part? You have to avoid them too. From their point of view you're the inconvenient extra in the show about their life, other peoples' only motivation to not get in your way is if you're going to barrel them over.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 06:07:07 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
corobo · 1 points · Posted at 06:37:26 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah flip it around, are you looking at their eyes to see where they are going?
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 17:38:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 17:48:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
zdakat · 1 points · Posted at 17:49:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Hopefully that raises their awareness.
ProkeAssPitch · 1 points · Posted at 21:04:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sorta except in real life people will move out the way.
Hhhyyu · 1 points · Posted at 18:46:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I have to turn off peripheral vision first.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:23:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I have the exact opposite, people clear a path in front of me, it has kinda of giving me a complex. I try to smile a lot but I think it makes it worse.
313fuzzy · 1 points · Posted at 18:53:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm that way. My kids account it to my resting bitch face & very loud body language. It generally works for me. In a crowd setting my FAM just follows in my wake as I break trail!
scottcphotog · 1 points · Posted at 18:46:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
pick pockets
mopculturereference · 1 points · Posted at 19:09:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Try holding your arms directly in front of you when you approach a fellow walker to indicate your direction.
Atrius129 · 1 points · Posted at 19:12:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"Ok, you shift that hydrogen over there, and i'll move this carbon here...and now we phaaaassseee (grunts) through one another"
"Great, now we can both reach that can of sphagetti sauce."
franktronic · 1 points · Posted at 19:36:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's the fucking corners. I'm not terribly annoyed by people walking on the wrong side in an open area, it's when they hug the interior wall on a blind corner.
Example: If you live in a country where you walk/drive on the right side, it's your right to cling as closely to the right-hand wall when making a right turn. It's not your responsibility to leave room for someone taking the same path from the oncoming direction that you may or may not be able to see.
But if you're making a left turn around a blind corner, you had better fucking leave some room.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:15:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Thats your problem. Dont try to coordinate. Just walk with purpose, ignore everyone, keep your gaze high but dont look at anyone. Just look past them where you intend to go. They will move.
You need to be ready to just mow people down. It will almost never happen, but you have to not give a shit if it does. Things will be so much easier.
firesquasher · 1 points · Posted at 19:20:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You dont own a dodge challenger do you?
eazyd · 4 points · Posted at 15:46:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Agreed, I do this
mgraunk · 5 points · Posted at 16:35:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Alternatively, stare directly into their eyes and do not look away until they turn and run in the opposite direction, leaving the sidewalk clear for your unimpeded passage.
Sierra_Oscar_Lima · 3 points · Posted at 16:53:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Assert dominance!
arch1medes · 3 points · Posted at 16:29:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is what I do, no sure contact, just look where you're going
octopoddle · 3 points · Posted at 17:32:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Also windmill your arms to show intent.
manicmonkeys · 3 points · Posted at 17:41:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I actually do the opposite with great success....I look beyond the people in front of me, towards where I'm heading in the distance. Then I use my peripheral vision to make minor adjustments left and right....I think most people are assuming I'm not even noticing them, so they're more likely to try and avoid running right into me. Also, you can better plot out your path through the crowd further ahead this way.
zdakat · 2 points · Posted at 17:51:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I seem to get that vibe too. Like they think,even subconciously "uh oh that guy will collide with me,at least I'm aware of where I'm going"
alwayswatchyoursix · 2 points · Posted at 18:03:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Except for when people are walking in the same direction as you but far slower, and then suddenly want to just stop and spread out while they look at something or discuss what they are going to do next.
Related: Just because you're walking with a group doesn't mean you need to spread out to take up the whole damn area.
TaxExempt · 1 points · Posted at 18:05:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Better is to look down. If they don't think you see them, they will avoid you.
joesmithtron · 1 points · Posted at 18:07:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No, look at the eyes of the person approaching you. The dance only happens when both people look down.
AjBlue7 · 1 points · Posted at 18:12:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Theres also another tip that conflicts with this one, that says you shouldn't look down at the ground when passing people as you walk as it is a sign of insecurity. Looking at people shows that you are confident and don't care if people notice you looking. Obviously there is a creepy line you don't want to cross from staring too much.
NorthernerWuwu · 1 points · Posted at 18:24:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sunglasses and headphones. People ignore you and you can bob and weave as needed for the most part.
AlgaeToday · 1 points · Posted at 18:25:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It works some of the time.
On most sidewalks there are still plenty of oafs that don't care where you're walking, and cultures that don't have an unspoken tendency to"veer right to avoid collision". Hell, there are cultures that don't have "avoid collision".
spooksmagee · 1 points · Posted at 18:31:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I personally look just past their shoulder, but yea this technique works like a charm.
Fishing_For_Pandas · 1 points · Posted at 18:33:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You notice both of you are watching each other's eyes and it becomes awkward.
metaprofessor · 1 points · Posted at 18:35:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's the trick. Just saw this seconds after posting the same idea.
MrCrash · 1 points · Posted at 18:36:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
People tend to look at
where your eyes are focusedtheir phones.FTFY.
also, oblivious jerks, watch where you are walking!
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:43:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's not looking down. It's looking in the direction you're moving. Look past the person and don't make eye contact.
bipnoodooshup · 1 points · Posted at 18:44:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But if everyone does that the no one will see where the other person is looking.
newburner01 · 1 points · Posted at 18:59:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah I just pick a random side and stick with it
Pallavtasse · 1 points · Posted at 19:00:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What's change my life is motioning with my right arm where I'm gonna go. Once that becomes muscle habit you stop worrying about this.
AlllPerspectives · 1 points · Posted at 19:04:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I like to put my hands together in a sort-of prayer position, and make a little rudder/icebreaker and point it in my direction of travel.
RepublicanScum · 1 points · Posted at 19:09:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I look at shoulders and hips (from football). Open your hips and shoulders blatantly (but don’t be a weirdo) in the direction you want to go. That way those of us non-eye contacty autistics won’t have to deal with the social awkwardness of saying “ope.”
OnTheEveOfWar · 1 points · Posted at 19:15:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This. I moved to a big city where I was walking a lot and was always running into people. I read about looking where you are walking and no longer have this issue.
spencerAF · 1 points · Posted at 19:17:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
^ First rule of never having to walk without being on the phone
kaleoh · 1 points · Posted at 19:17:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Saw this answer on reddit about 5 years ago and have been doing successfully ever since. And I have told people about it and they're like oh yea wassup dog.
SuperheroDeluxe · 1 points · Posted at 19:19:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you look down and point people will move out of the way even better This works great at concerts when you want to get to the front.
If anyone is stubborn about It, start doing some pre-barf heaving. No one wants to be in the way even if they suspect it might be a bluff.
Nuklearius · 1 points · Posted at 19:33:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oh yeah, real LPT. Made walking through train stations much less awkward!
SudoWithCheese · 1 points · Posted at 19:40:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Angle your shoulders to point in the direction you wish to go,
Bonus points for doing the opposite and then having a little dance with a stranger...
RandomActOfPizza · 1 points · Posted at 19:48:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Look over the other person's shoulder of which side you want to pass on. Since I've started doing that I've literally never had this issue.
ojibhawk · 1 points · Posted at 20:01:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I look over whichever shoulder behind them I'm walking towards. Has yet to fail.
dwarfoftheaether · 1 points · Posted at 02:14:02 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
we W'ZA2
poopellar · 482 points · Posted at 14:40:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I just stand still and let them take the burden.
SOBWAW · 1416 points · Posted at 14:44:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I stand there and flap my arms to make myself look as big as possible. I'll give a soft "caw" sound to indicate that they are intruding on my nest and hope that they turn around and walk the other way. Then I continue on my journey and walk without incident to wherever I am going.
iTomWright · 358 points · Posted at 15:08:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Birdperson?
[deleted] · 129 points · Posted at 15:14:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Don't you dare fool us.
321jakedroid · 21 points · Posted at 15:53:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
r/FuckTammy
EatFrenchToast · 1 points · Posted at 19:17:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I love that this subreddit is linked every time the word birdperson is mentioned!
[deleted] · 9 points · Posted at 17:37:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
FerretWithASpork · 3 points · Posted at 18:50:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ugh, I thought we agreed on cyberbirdperson?
Phoneixperson · 8 points · Posted at 18:16:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
We phone people are indeed intimidating when on sidewalks.
Eorlingat · 2 points · Posted at 19:27:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Did hooked on Phoenix work for you?
Boomer7491 · 1 points · Posted at 17:58:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
https://youtu.be/fPCHHotWJ7o
UnderstandPhysics · 1 points · Posted at 20:50:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
As in a cross between a Phoenix person and a phone looker?
icyhaze23 · 6 points · Posted at 18:53:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
SKRAAAAWW FILTHY MUDMEN WILL NEVER BE ENLIGHTENED LIKE US CAAAAWWWWWW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Stegosaurus_Soup · 4 points · Posted at 18:20:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Wub A Lub a Dub Dub!
beepbloopbloop · 5 points · Posted at 15:34:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
RIP
Amogh24 · 9 points · Posted at 16:04:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Fuck Tammy
Dixomatic · 2 points · Posted at 19:21:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No. In bird culture, this is considered a dick move.
st3dit · 4 points · Posted at 18:44:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
/r/birdswitharms
GonadGravy · 1 points · Posted at 21:15:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Bird-Kin.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 22:16:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Why would he walk?
MyFingerPointeth · 3 points · Posted at 19:49:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
lmao have my babies please!!!
ab3iter · 6 points · Posted at 15:48:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
/r/enlightenedbirdmen
LiterallyJames · 2 points · Posted at 19:14:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My favorite sub here
tyerod · 2 points · Posted at 17:56:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Im sorry, I thought you was corn.
501SolR · 2 points · Posted at 18:54:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Best comment
necro3mp · 2 points · Posted at 18:56:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I liked this post so much I tried to upvote it twice, unknowingly, within seconds. Mind you, I'm on mobile so there are multiple taps involved.
yukonicus1979 · 2 points · Posted at 19:03:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Dee?
lisonburg · 2 points · Posted at 19:35:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Literally the most effective method in this thread as long as you don't mind looking like a loon.
I_lenny_face_you · 1 points · Posted at 18:38:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Should check your local bird law though.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:41:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Squaw!
K0W · 1 points · Posted at 19:29:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
...Arms you say? /r/birdswitharms
CorruptionOfTheMind · 1 points · Posted at 20:01:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In bird culture, this is considered what is called, a dick move
SelenerCats · 0 points · Posted at 15:25:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
LOLL
SgtGears · 0 points · Posted at 16:06:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But what if they fling mud at you?
Nauticaldoge · 0 points · Posted at 16:15:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
C A W
WhipTheLlama · 3 points · Posted at 17:34:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I go to the right and let them decide if they want to go to their right or act like a mentally challenged house fly and bump into me. Once I've decided to go right, that's where I'm going.
joeyadams · 3 points · Posted at 15:27:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I just truck them and let them take most of the impact.
superH3R01N3 · 3 points · Posted at 18:45:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You're what's wrong with the world!
Jfreak7 · 2 points · Posted at 17:52:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I do this when there is a group taking up the entire sidewalk. Instead of being forced into the street/grass/squished against the wall, I will stop and tie my shoes. They have to go around.
invatigris · 1 points · Posted at 15:30:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I do the same thing to bikes.
Sarcatheist · 1 points · Posted at 19:26:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I've had instances where I just stop and let them go around because of the impasse and they literally just walked right into me.
Very awkward.
wren42 · 0 points · Posted at 19:22:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And they are still standing in front of that elevator to this day.
[deleted] · -2 points · Posted at 16:04:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
useeikick · 0 points · Posted at 16:37:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You just don't dump that much responsibility on a single man, that's fucked up
[deleted] · 191 points · Posted at 14:54:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Right, right?
evoni0_0 · 114 points · Posted at 14:57:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Right.
Aurify · 127 points · Posted at 15:33:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Left it is then.
Sqrlchez · 6 points · Posted at 15:59:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Alright!
navin__johnson · 4 points · Posted at 16:22:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Alt-right?
TehOncomingStorm · 4 points · Posted at 16:00:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well, three rights do make a left.
ISHLDPROBABLYBWRKING · 2 points · Posted at 16:05:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I just had this debate in an hour car ride, and we came to the conclusion that streets are too narrow for this to be true. You will have bone a block to far
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 16:24:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How does one bone a block? Sounds painful
ISHLDPROBABLYBWRKING · 2 points · Posted at 16:36:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just make a hole in the block
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:20:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Blocks are the new coconuts.
Hanzilol · 1 points · Posted at 20:31:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't know how, but he explained why. It seems you'd want to bone a block in order to far. I'm still not sure I get it.
pm_me_construction · 1 points · Posted at 18:45:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ope
MMEnter · 1 points · Posted at 19:24:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's the alternative right, right?
crrrack · 2 points · Posted at 17:41:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My right or your right?
CallOfRudy · 2 points · Posted at 18:05:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Your right or my right?
Langer1banger · 2 points · Posted at 18:14:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Correct
PogueEthics · 2 points · Posted at 18:59:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Right, because two rights don't make a wrong
FaithIsFoolish · 2 points · Posted at 19:21:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Same as driving as far as I can tell. When I was in Japan, it took a little while before I noticed the default there is the left side
gomerkyle9 · 2 points · Posted at 19:55:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I walked on a bike path in Sacramento where pedestrians were supposed to walk on the left, presumably so they could see oncoming bicycles. Made sense but it fucked me all up.
dubman42 · 3 points · Posted at 16:27:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What if you're in a country that drives on the left? Do you move to the left on side walks as well?
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 16:48:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I barely leave the house.
scnoi1217 · 1 points · Posted at 19:56:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When I was in Japan, it was common to walk and pass people on the left. It some time to get used to
ToMcAt67 · 2 points · Posted at 15:14:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Unless you're in England, or somewhere else where they drive on the wrong I mean left side.
[deleted] · 184 points · Posted at 15:10:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
brilliantlyInsane · 12 points · Posted at 16:02:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But now they probably see you as the dumb person who doesn't know how to walk.
[deleted] · 10 points · Posted at 16:05:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
[deleted] · 19 points · Posted at 18:13:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's why every time my dog craps on the carpet, I do too. It shows them how stupid it is to crap on the carpet. /s
AlgaeToday · 2 points · Posted at 18:32:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
He's not even taking time out of his own day to glibly and deliberately block my path right now, but I can't shake the notion he's the dumb one.
Somizi · 2 points · Posted at 19:09:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I use a cane to walk and would definitely trip the shit out of you.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:45:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Are you my cousin Joe? Do you also size people up like that when meeting them to determine them, intimidate and analyze?
WhatThePenis · 1 points · Posted at 19:22:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't know, if someone was walking in my direction and then just zoned the fuck in and headed straight towards me, I'd assume they're the dumb person who doesn't know how to walk
xenongamer4351 · 1 points · Posted at 19:28:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm pretty sure they say something very similar about you after that encounter
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:51:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Same for me. I just aggressively increase speed so that if they don't get out of my way, they'll be flattened. Usually they move after I use that tactic. Also helps I'm 6' tall.
Sproded · -3 points · Posted at 17:50:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Whenever I see couples I always try to walk straight through them
puckbeaverton · 134 points · Posted at 16:15:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
To the right, motherfuckers. Pretend it's a highway and this is america.
Tatted_and_Naked · -12 points · Posted at 17:38:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You pass to the left in america..
vladimir_tootin · 21 points · Posted at 17:43:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
he means we drive on the right. so if we're walking towards someone, we should both stay to the right since that's how our traffic flows.
1997cutegeek · -8 points · Posted at 17:57:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Foot traffic is always the opposite of road traffic, though. For safety reasons.
vladimir_tootin · 12 points · Posted at 18:03:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
i've literally never heard that in my life.
X0AN · 3 points · Posted at 18:06:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Because it's made up :D
jmxo92 · 6 points · Posted at 18:06:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You're supposed to walk opposite of traffic when you're on the sidewalk. This doesn't make sense to what they were replying to though because we're imaging foot traffic only (so just the people on the sidewalk, or in the grocery store)...in which case yes, always walk on the right side and then no one should have to bump into each other
densetsu23 · 2 points · Posted at 18:48:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
... and now you see why people have differing opinions. :)
I was always of the opinion of "always stay right", but the point about walking opposite car traffic was an insightful one. Maybe they're just applying their sidewalk walking rules to other places.
1997cutegeek · 1 points · Posted at 18:09:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's not a common thing, because most people haven't been taught how to walk. It doesn't seem necessary. However, if you are walking along a road, you should walk "into traffic" so you will have an easier time avoiding being hit by cars. Since you will see the car coming, you can judge whether or not you may be hit. Since it is a good idea to keep everything consistent, we should also adopt this pattern of behavior on sidewalks, in Wal-Mart, etc. This will make people subconsciously walk on the safer side of roads.
Rahmin_Noodle_Queen · 1 points · Posted at 18:36:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Everybody generally walks on the right side so mixing that up because it "should" be that way is going to cause a lot of "ope" situations.
jshrlzwrld02 · 1 points · Posted at 18:17:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Umm not sidewalk traffic though. It's widely understood that you walk against traffic so you can see what's oncoming and ride bicycles in the direction of traffic.
However, if you're in the sidewalk I suppose that could still be relevant because if you always walk on your right side of the sidewalk you'll be looking directly towards the oncoming traffic.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:24:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Walk on the left side of the road, and the right side of the part you're walking on when people come by - since you can see what's coming and they can't, you're better suited to approaching the road in those situations (which are rare, since they should be on the other side of the road).
comfortablesexuality · 0 points · Posted at 18:55:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you're in the sidewalk you don't need to look at traffic...
jshrlzwrld02 · 1 points · Posted at 18:57:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No, you don't need to. I never said you did. I'm just an advocate of walk on the right side of the sidewalk no matter what and it just happens that if you're walking on your right side you're facing traffic anyway. I way just using it as a reference for walking along regular roads.
comfortablesexuality · 1 points · Posted at 19:37:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
On roads you should be in the left, I don't see how anything changes if you're on the sidewalk
jshrlzwrld02 · 1 points · Posted at 19:39:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sidewalks are just people roads. Why wouldn't you walk the same way that you drive unless you're some kind of asshole?
comfortablesexuality · 1 points · Posted at 20:12:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oh okay we agree then
jshrlzwrld02 · 1 points · Posted at 20:14:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah sorry if it didn't make sense at first lol. I just always try to walk like I drive. I get mad at myself when I catch myself walking on the wrong side of a mall too lol.
ABCosmos · 5 points · Posted at 16:51:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If from your perspective 90% are wrong, than you should do the opposite of whatever you're doing.
zopy4949 · 7 points · Posted at 16:20:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Isn't the rule to take to the side that you drive on? Like right for America and Canada, and left for Britain?
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:08:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's what I do anyway
wynden · 1 points · Posted at 18:51:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't know if there's a rule, but this is what I observed when I traveled. The only problem being that the more cosmopolitan the area the less consistency in the walk.
hu6Bi5To · 1 points · Posted at 19:43:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The approach most people in London take: just walk wherever the hell you like, if the other person picks one side, then just gradually drift in that direction while looking at them with horror that you're about to be mugged even though continuing on your original path would have been entirely in the clear.
This is unless you're a smoker, in that case you walk very, very slowly down the middle of every path. Swinging your lit cigarette fire-end first exactly where the oncoming person needs to move. If you're unlucky enough to be taking a drag of the cigarette and you miss your arson/burning opportunity, you can gain a few points by blowing smoke in their direction. Not directly at the face, but a big sweeping move to spread the poison over as long a distance as possible so the oncoming person can't even time their breath to avoid it.
If you have a bag, casually drop it at the oncoming person's foot, obviously.
If you're standing waiting for someone, that's no excuse to just stand at the side out of the way. No stand in the middle with your back to oncoming traffic and move left and right in unpredictable movements. (You're also allowed to cheat by glancing behind you to make sure that the person who has the most difficulty moving quickly - e.g. someone with shopping bags - has to take the largest evasive action.)
That's pretty much how walking in London works.
NSippy · 2 points · Posted at 17:50:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You can scare 100 birds in a field, and they all fly away without bumping into each other/crashing.
2 people can manage to bump into each other in a hallway, let alone when we trample each other to death.
birds pls
pspahn · 3 points · Posted at 17:09:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ah yes, the "Sidewalk Shuffle".
Once, I was approaching this dude who was pretty rough looking. Tear drop tattoo, heavy Pendleton in summer, and I was on Colfax and Washington (the streets in Denver). We were getting nearer each other, and we totally did the sidewalk shuffle. I stopped and asked if he wanted to dance with me. He laughed and kept walking.
An unexpected encounter, to be sure. I thought it was awesome.
NFLinPDX · 2 points · Posted at 17:35:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You move right. Simple.
Your right
LLLegitimacyyy · 2 points · Posted at 16:51:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
One of my biggest pet peeves is when people pick the side you have already been walking on for all the time they have noticed you.
icanshitposttoo · 2 points · Posted at 17:10:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
that's easy, to the right.
SlynxT · 2 points · Posted at 17:25:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just. Go. Right.
jordork86 · 2 points · Posted at 17:43:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
We call that a "Canadian standoff."
bigdog704 · 1 points · Posted at 17:08:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The key is to look past someones eye-level (almost above their head). They will most always notice you do not see them coming and will move over to accomodate.
xxkoloblicinxx · 1 points · Posted at 17:10:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Its like road traffic... if you move through large groups like youd move through traffic and stay in the right lane you should be fine. Except people are stupid.
Dioapple · 1 points · Posted at 17:25:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If your country drives on the right side, always veer to the right. People tend to understand this a bit faster. Also do NOT hesitate even if they come your direction.
_Dia_ · 1 points · Posted at 17:28:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And not to take up the whole sidewalk if you don't have to!
shleppenwolf · 1 points · Posted at 17:30:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Pet peeve: the guy who can't finish a conversation even though he's leaving it. He walks away crabwise, head turned around and talking, no idea where he's going.
When one of those heads for me, I turn my back, hit a brace, and let the ass make an ass of himself.
billhickschoke · 1 points · Posted at 17:34:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Whatever side of the road you drive on is the side of the sidewalk you should walk on. It's that easy! Especially in malls where the kiosks act as the double yellow line. (Currently in a mall and walking around groups of people walking shoulder to shoulder on the wrong side)
singularitybot · 1 points · Posted at 17:37:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Trying to walk in the same direction as the traffic flows (left side in Btitain and right side in the "rest of the world") works for me pretty fine. It is something that should be taught in schools.
im_a_rascal_in_bed · 1 points · Posted at 17:39:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This might sound petty.
A couple years ago my roommate took a class in college about some irrelevant topic. They were having a free class discussion about how often women step aside when someone is walking in their direction rather than men. The men in the class realized "oh man I really don't think who's gonna step aside first. they usually do."
After that story I always stand my ground and it's hilarious to watch people who are walking on my side of the pathway (I stay to the right always) run into me when I stop dead in my tracks even though they are in MY way, not the other way around.
ZNasT · 1 points · Posted at 17:44:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Why can't people just use the rules of the road when walking? See how people can get where they need to go in cars while rarely crashing in to each other? Why not do that while walking as well?
DaddyCatALSO · 1 points · Posted at 17:52:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I just move as far as I can, then slap the wall or fence and glare at them fro following me instead of going around
USCplaya · 1 points · Posted at 17:53:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This, same thing with aisles in a grocery store. If your country drives on the right, stay to the right. Very simple
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:59:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Changinggirl · 1 points · Posted at 18:37:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
this killed me lol
whistleridge · 1 points · Posted at 18:00:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I have two Great Danes. Every day, we go for a walk in the large city park across from my house. Every day, we stay to the right, because that's how traffic works.
Every day, we encounter at least one idiot walking in the other direction and looking at their phone, who looks up at the last minute, freaks the fuck out at the two huge dogs, and glares like it's my fault.
y2k2r2d2 · 1 points · Posted at 18:15:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Indicators?
gregthedj · 1 points · Posted at 18:31:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Is "right in front of them and awkwardly shimmy" the correct answer?
metaprofessor · 1 points · Posted at 18:34:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
After years of living in NYC and walking the streets I learned the secret to this. By "this," I mean that strange standoff that occurs when neither person knows where the other wants to go and you both end up jumping the gun. The trick is to very obviously turn your head and direct your eyes in the direction you plan to go in, and then just go (most often, to the right). It works 99.9% of the time.
Joonmoy · 1 points · Posted at 18:35:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's right through them, isn't it?
sporket · 1 points · Posted at 18:38:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is why you maintain eye contact on the direction you're going, just past the gaze and shoulder of the other person. Collision or needless small talk avoided.
EvenTallerTree · 1 points · Posted at 18:40:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you see someone walking towards you and think you may do that awkward "which way do I go shuffle" instead of looking at them, look to the side of them you intend to pass and they'll usually step in the opposite direction since they'll be watching where you're looking
ke2uke · 1 points · Posted at 18:44:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Look over the shoulder of the person you are walking towards in the direction you intend to go and they will go the opposite way, no idea how this works but it does.
np20412 · 1 points · Posted at 18:44:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I always just go to the right, since in the states, that's the side of the road we drive on. Makes the most sense to me.
superH3R01N3 · 1 points · Posted at 18:44:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah... In the US it's traditionally to the right (right side of the road). I actually remember specifically being taught this when led in lines from one place to another in private preschool and kindergarten. My problem is the families that just don't move at all from the center of a walkway, and disrupt the entire flow of a crowd.
Cornhole35 · 1 points · Posted at 18:46:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Went youre walking use your hands to pick a direction before you get close.
Spriggs5 · 1 points · Posted at 18:46:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm a lefty and instinctually want to move left but try to force myself to go rightward whenever I approach people.
cow-eepp · 1 points · Posted at 18:47:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Life pro tip: humans use unconscious eye tracking. Make eye contact, look the way you plan to go, then go that way. The other person will unconsciously step the other way without even noticing.
RichWPX · 1 points · Posted at 18:48:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
One Direction
MaddenMan73 · 1 points · Posted at 18:50:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Walk on the side of the road you drive on - simple solution.
CubesTheGamer · 1 points · Posted at 18:51:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you take the initiative and always walk to the right or left, the other person will follow and go the other way. Just stick to your choice no matter what. The other person will awkwardly change sides if need be
evil_fungus · 1 points · Posted at 18:58:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
same as driver rules
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:58:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I read a great tip for this. If you look over someone's shoulder rather in their eyes, they'll know which way to move. I've been trying it out and it's awesome!
lystellion · 1 points · Posted at 18:58:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Here's a really low-grade superpower: how to never do the 'crab dance' again.
If you're coming up to someone walking towards you (like on a narrow pavement) and it's not clear who is going which side in order to pass each other, turn your shoulders clearly to the side you intend to go. Eg turn right and walk to the right-hand side.
Exaggerating this movement just a little bit makes it very clear where you're going. The other person will instinctively respond and walk to the opposite side.
This rarely fails. It's one of the few life hacks I consciously use almost every day. I am Nocrabdanceman, and I am getting a cape.
Recrem86 · 1 points · Posted at 19:01:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This one I never understood why people give you the "deer in headlights" look for. If I'm walking up to someone I plan on passing I jester them with my hand, if I plan to pass on the right I make a almost last second turn to the right hold out my right hand (almost like I'm going to shake there hand, elbow on the hip) and just past, if I past on the left I use my left hand. No awkwardness, just a clean pass
dannixxphantom · 1 points · Posted at 19:03:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
On good days, they get an "ope"
On bad days, they get a seething glare and a shoulder check if they don't move to their right.
Av_navy20160606 · 1 points · Posted at 19:06:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Leap frog over them, duh!
Auguschm · 1 points · Posted at 19:08:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I just make a signal with my hand indicating which direction I'm going.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:10:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
On top of that, when people take up the whole sidewalk (either walking or standing).
idontevenarse · 1 points · Posted at 19:11:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Take the right side unless you're on a stairs where right side is going up.
blahblahrasputan · 1 points · Posted at 19:15:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Look where you're walking.
If you look at the person then you are walking to them, then they look at you and becomes two awkward magnets pulling towards each other.
Coffee__Addict · 1 points · Posted at 19:15:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Correct to port go to court.
UnwantedGalaxy · 1 points · Posted at 19:16:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Actually, I have a story for this. I was at a state park yesterday and riding a bike through a path where bikes are also permitted. I am riding towards a group of Hispanic ladies. They clearly make eye contact with me, I ring my bell, there's no doubt they know I am coming. I tell my friend I'm riding with "I hope they move, or else someone's leg is going to break today." They see me coming. Small path. I have no room because they don't seem to get that in order for me to get room to ride past, I need them to move to the side. They keep laughing and don't move. So naturally, I yell "Watch out!" and I crash right into one of them. The woman gets pissed at ME because I was biking and SHE didn't move out of the way when she saw a huge bike coming. So naturally, you're going to get hurt if I have no way to just move past you. Jesus.
Dragonasaur · 1 points · Posted at 19:17:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Same as the way you drive.
North America: right side
HK: left side
stromm · 1 points · Posted at 19:18:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Stay to your right.
It's that simple.
Maybe I think that way because we drive on the right here.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:18:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes
Feel_Flows · 1 points · Posted at 19:18:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Having moved to the U.K. from the states... this was a difficult adjustment.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:18:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You can gesture with the hand in the direction you are going to clarifying it, Now slow walkers on the other hand...
Zableye · 1 points · Posted at 19:22:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I found that if you keep your eyes pointed to one side, the person walking towards you will subconsciously note that and stay on their side
Vargolol · 1 points · Posted at 19:23:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I always move first and early. If they're on the right, I move left before there's any question about who's walking into who. If they move with me I'm going to look at them like they're stupid
the_master_of_memes · 1 points · Posted at 19:24:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
FAA regulations state that if two airplanes are on a course that will result in a head-on collision, both airplanes must move to their respective right. Now I'm not saying I'll necessarily be walking anywhere approaching anyone's mothers, but you can be damn sure I'll probably default to right anyway
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:26:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Also where to stand when you're not walking up the escalator. Hint: It's the same side of the road you drive on and the same side of the sidewalk you walk on. Not that hard.
Imablackdude_ · 1 points · Posted at 19:27:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
They asked 90% of people, not 99.99999%
msatater · 1 points · Posted at 19:29:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So true. From my experience it depends on which country you're in and not necessarily which side you drive. When I was in China, they drive on the same side but when walking they pass on the left not right.
This was weird for me because generally they walk on the right, but when coming up on someone head-on (while walking) you pass on their left side.
I learned this quickly after a few awkward encounters. Once I started side stepping left it stopped. Such a weird experience.
jaycfresh · 1 points · Posted at 19:34:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This really threw me off in Japan, everyone moves to the left upon approaching people on the sidewalk because they drive on the left side of the road.
hotpoodle · 1 points · Posted at 19:34:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to avoid the awkward shuffle: Focus your eyes on something to the side and walk towards it. Works every time.
TitusTheWolf · 1 points · Posted at 19:35:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Use your head and eyes to indicate which way you are going. Since I've employed this technique, never had a problem.
Yatsey007 · 1 points · Posted at 19:36:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The buggy brigade always seem to zero in on me when I walk through a high street.
xXxwiskersxXx · 1 points · Posted at 19:38:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I have decided to always go right, that way, if they bump into me, I feel like I was right and they were not
evilkat · 1 points · Posted at 19:39:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's when you thank them for the dance and move on :)
trvscls07 · 1 points · Posted at 19:41:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You go left, I'll go right. (Crash!) Where did we go wrong?!
Mr_Quiscalus · 1 points · Posted at 19:44:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You move to the right, just like when you walked single file down the hall in elementary school... or drive in traffic. Unless you're from a place where they drive on the left. The you move to the left. I thought this was common knowledge.
iveaux · 1 points · Posted at 19:48:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You go right I'll go left. Easy.
XACTOlife · 1 points · Posted at 19:48:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think I read it on Reddit that to avoid this situation one should just look at the shoulder on the side you intend to pass the oncoming person.
I've been doing this ever since and it works.
J_Stache · 1 points · Posted at 19:50:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Look over their shoulder and walk to that side. If they are looking up and are aware, they you will pass with no problem. Example.. look over their left shoulder and you go to the right of them.
panchomay · 1 points · Posted at 19:54:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
turn your hips and stare at the place you are walking
carlclancy · 1 points · Posted at 19:55:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Here in Germany it's ALWAYS to the right. More than once I've seen a look of panicked determination in people's eyes that tells they'd rather collide head-on with me than go left.
pfloyd102 · 1 points · Posted at 19:57:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The trick is to not lock eyes. Look in one direction and stick to it and the other person should not do the "'SCUSE ME' DANCE".
Ser_Ender · 1 points · Posted at 20:02:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This can be your fault too. The key is to always look where you are going - 99% of people will take the cue and stay out of your way. In other words, don't look at them because then you both just get confused.
Mablun · 1 points · Posted at 20:02:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This reminds me of the joke where an elderly women heard on the local news that there was someone driving the wrong down the highway. Knowing that her husband took that highway home she called him to warn him, to which he responded "It's not just one wrong way driver, there's hundreds of them!"
Anyways, if 90% of people are going the opposite way as you...
cpw_19 · 1 points · Posted at 20:06:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
On narrow pavements, where there is only room for one person (so one person has to step into the road) I always go with the rule of thumb that you should never force the person with their back to the oncoming traffic to step into the road - it should always be the one who can see the traffic who does that.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:08:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In North America, I would say try to go to the right, and left in the UK. Also, try to look at where you intend to go. People should react accordingly.
thor_barley · 1 points · Posted at 20:11:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Do 10% of people even look in the direction they're moving?
Jay_Striker7 · 1 points · Posted at 20:13:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
just look over the approaching strangers shoulder of the side you want to pass him. 99% of the time they will move so that you will be able to pass him without any trouble.
SSRainu · 1 points · Posted at 20:36:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Lock Eyes. Glance in the direction you are going to walk. Glance back to make sure the person understands. Walk to where you were going to walk.
Mmmelissamarie · 1 points · Posted at 20:43:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The right, right??
cvetkathecow · 4719 points · Posted at 14:34:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you wait for people to get off of a public transportation vehicle before getting on there will be more room for you in there, plus you won't be pushed by anybody. Such simple logic.
aperson7697 · 685 points · Posted at 16:38:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Plus it's the law in the UK I believe, London commuters are always in a rush but succeed in letting people off the tube before boarding
SlamTackle · 261 points · Posted at 17:32:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's not against the Law in the UK, people just let people off first because it's the polite thing to do and they'll get tutted at by other passengers if they don't.
cvetkathecow · 28 points · Posted at 18:02:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Polite and logical. Now I'm much more sympathetic towards the UK.
darwinsaves · 5 points · Posted at 20:00:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Listen to a cockney accent for a few minutes and that'll change.
TheGaspode · 2 points · Posted at 20:26:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Try and drive through Boston and it'll change as well.
I've always said, if you get the chance to go to Boston... don't.
darwinsaves · 1 points · Posted at 20:27:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I have been to Boston. This is accurate.
TheGaspode · 2 points · Posted at 10:41:02 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Whenever people south of it ask where it is my response is always "when you go to Skeg, you know the traffic jam you hit? That's Boston."
bee_rii · 12 points · Posted at 17:54:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not on my bus route it seems. Bloody ignorant!
hai1337 · 3 points · Posted at 19:01:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You have single door buses?
bee_rii · 1 points · Posted at 19:14:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No but they stand in a group completely blocking the doors. Then you have to do the which way are you going dance.
Actually I think I just understood what you were saying. Yeah they have one double door in the front.
hai1337 · 1 points · Posted at 21:30:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oh, we have two double doors, one in the front and one in the middle for almost all the routes
DystopianNightmares · 1 points · Posted at 01:37:19 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Try the District Line at Tower Hill. Darn Heathens.
chaun2 · 11 points · Posted at 18:15:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I've never received a proper British tut-tut-(ing?) before, and as a US citizen I wonder if it is as jarring to us as it seems to be there......
madeamashup · 23 points · Posted at 18:50:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The British are a weirdly sensitive bunch and they're groomed from an early age to respect and fear the tuts of their peers, as an American you very likely wouldn't give a fuck or understand what the big deal was. Motherfucker tut-tutting at me, thinking I care, lol.
doritosandhappiness · 30 points · Posted at 19:01:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This. If I get tutted I spend the rest of the day playing back the incident in my head, trying to work out what I did wrong and then wallowing in shame and self pity.
Squid0110 · 9 points · Posted at 19:10:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
FTFY
Cheerful-as-fuck · 7 points · Posted at 19:46:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Squid0110 · 10 points · Posted at 19:47:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Username does not check out
Cheerful-as-fuck · 6 points · Posted at 19:52:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
:'(
cosmicsans · 2 points · Posted at 20:13:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
s( ^ ‿ ^)-b
TheGaspode · 2 points · Posted at 20:27:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Turns out they were tutting at some other idiot entirely, and you'll never know.
FlappyBoobs · 13 points · Posted at 19:37:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm from the UK and have never once been a tutee, a tutter for sure, and sometimes a titter but never been tutted at, just tit for tat i s'pose.
madeamashup · 2 points · Posted at 19:49:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You must live an exciting life
SuchASillyName616 · 7 points · Posted at 19:55:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Meanwhile, us British (and other commonwealth nations) can call eachother 'cunts' without insult whilst Americans get so offended by it.
madeamashup · 2 points · Posted at 20:18:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Personally, I enjoy having a single syllable that makes women instantly lose their minds, it seems like I'm really not missing out on much by not calling everyone cunts and overuse makes a perfectly good insult less potent.
randymarsh18 · 1 points · Posted at 19:58:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Why don't you suck our asses u pigglet!
kyle308 · 1 points · Posted at 22:20:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Wtf is a tut? Like legit someone looks at you and says tut tut, or there's a phrase that's used? I'm so confused.
skylinrcr01 · 3 points · Posted at 20:19:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm american and got tutted at last time I was in London. I squeezed by an old lady that was walking really slow, trying to catch a tube train. 3/10 on the discomfort scale, wasn't that bad.
[deleted] · 5 points · Posted at 19:15:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm pretty sure the UK have 3 years of queue etiquette taught in school.
Merlin676 · 7 points · Posted at 19:48:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's actually evolution driven by natural selection because people who break the sanctity of the queue often get tutted to death by an slightly miffed mob.
oakydoke · 3 points · Posted at 19:41:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ah yes, the most powerful form of law: socially-established.
pepper_head · 3 points · Posted at 19:55:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A punishment far worse than whatever the Royal Court of Justice could serve.
ER_nesto · 2 points · Posted at 19:30:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I wouldn't be surprised if it's a bylaw on some rail networks
i_enjoy_sports · 2 points · Posted at 19:40:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So it might as well be law?
NamelessAce · 2 points · Posted at 19:55:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So it's basically the law.
martinis00 · 1 points · Posted at 19:45:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Mind the gap
[deleted] · 587 points · Posted at 17:21:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"Does this really need to be a law?!"
"Do you see this shit here?"
"Motherfuck! sigh I hereby declare....."
[deleted] · 27 points · Posted at 17:37:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You underestimate the selfishness of the average person.
FadeCrimson · 3 points · Posted at 19:57:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, this is the reason laws are necessary. If common sense and basic human decency were universally followed, then our planet wouldn't NEED governing or enforcement to these sort of things. This is why we need to make laws for the dumbest of things. For every ludicrous rule or law, there's somebody who was stupid enough for that rule to have needed to be made in the first place.
cvetkathecow · 15 points · Posted at 17:59:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Hahaha exactly, this, followed by a facepalm.
madeInNY · 3 points · Posted at 18:56:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Does it hurt for it to be the law? Does it help?
Flamesmcgee · 3 points · Posted at 19:07:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
By that logic, lower the speed limits everywhere!
madeInNY · 5 points · Posted at 19:08:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's exactly what the US did in the 1970's. It saved millions of lives and countless barrels of oil. The needs of the many...
Feather_Toes · 2 points · Posted at 20:22:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you don't wait the bus driver can just not let you on the bus. There doesn't need to be jailtime or a fine or whatever for it. Not every annoying thing someone does needs a legal punishment. Why tie up the courts with that? And you know they'll be taking the bus to the hearing...
madeInNY · 2 points · Posted at 20:25:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The law is a statement of public policy. It's not going to be a criminal offense. At worst you might get a ticket. Likely you'll get a warning. But having it on the books is a declaration that we as a society expect people to behave civilly. And if we have to, we'll punish you if you don't.
Faiakishi · 1 points · Posted at 02:13:55 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's how commercials that are louder than the program got outlawed. A senator got annoyed at one over dinner, and her brother or whoever she was eating was like "dude, you're the senator, just make a law."
TortugaJack · 9 points · Posted at 17:28:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Because they get reminded at every.. single.. stop..
cvetkathecow · 5 points · Posted at 18:01:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If only everybody would be reminded at every stop everywhere. No no, if only everybody could think of it themselves and there would be no need for any reminder...
zakkyb · 4 points · Posted at 18:29:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The tourists still fail to do it
gimrah · 6 points · Posted at 18:55:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not law. Used to be widely respected etiquette. Still is a bit but much less than even 10 years ago.
Northwindlowlander · 3 points · Posted at 18:45:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just british pragmatism, we're obnoxious but with purpose.
amillstone · 3 points · Posted at 19:28:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not always if you're at one of the very busy stations during rush hour, like King's Cross or Oxford Circus. The amount of times I've had to push past several people just to get off the train there is ridiculous.
Also, no, it's not the law.
pacefire · 3 points · Posted at 19:44:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I couldn't believe how orderly and efficienct people were in the Tube when I went there compared to American. Especially the escalators.
theosamabahama · 5 points · Posted at 18:30:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Londoners are really strict with public positioning. They will bicker with you if you don't stand on the right of the staircase and if you cross the street while the traffic light is red.
dougien1 · 16 points · Posted at 18:36:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That part's not true. We walk out into traffic all the time!
theosamabahama · -1 points · Posted at 19:03:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I went to London in 2015, and 3 times the drivers honked angry at me for crossing the street at the wrong moment. This never happened with me here in Brazil.
Chromana · 9 points · Posted at 19:08:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you're going to get in the way and make them slow down or possibly hit you then, yes, you will get honked/yelled at. If it's all clear or the traffic is stopped then you're good to go.
theosamabahama · 6 points · Posted at 19:16:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I actually admire your organization. London even has "look left" or "look right" painted on the road. Since I visited there, I always stand on the right of the staircase :)
Chromana · 5 points · Posted at 19:20:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Also the more elusive "Look both ways". London is one of the major tourist cities so you'd think it's mostly for them, but Londoners use them all the time too.
Good! Although, if you're in Brazil you drive on the right, so maybe you should stand on the left on the escalator? Dunno.
theosamabahama · 1 points · Posted at 20:31:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Strangely, people stand on the right of the escalator here. But unfortunately, not everyone does it and those who do it, only do it in the metro/subway/underground.
must-be-thursday · 3 points · Posted at 19:40:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think the key phrase is 'at the wrong moment'...
Bongeh · 2 points · Posted at 19:48:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I've lived in England my entire 31 years and have never heard of such a law, gormless idiots barricade their own path of entry on a regular basis.
Sarrieslad · 2 points · Posted at 19:49:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't think it's law per se, however get on the tube while I'm trying to get off and prepare for some serious tutting and vicious glances from all around.
aperson7697 · 1 points · Posted at 22:19:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Judging on the amount of people telling me it isn't a law, it might not be, but it is certainly an unspoken rule
Korotani · 2 points · Posted at 20:01:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There's actually a Byelaw on tfl services in London - 10 (2) - (2) No person shall enter through any train door until any person leaving by that door has passed through it.
Not that everyone obeys that of course...
cant_think_of_one_ · 2 points · Posted at 20:01:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
As a Londoner, I find it very annoying when people do not follow this rule and, they will know about it. Either I will comment, loud enough for them to hear, about how stupid and rude they are or, I will just act as if they had waited out of the way and walk right into them.
RemysBoyToy · 2 points · Posted at 19:40:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My mates all ended up scrapping with a group of lads because I completely forgot this when I was high and went and sat down on a train everyone was trying to get off. The other passengers didn't react too well apparently.
Didn't even realise what was going on until they all sat down opposite with looks of, "You owe us a fucking drink mate."
Zhubarik · 1 points · Posted at 19:37:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
PREPARE TO BE BOARDED! (FTL flashbacks)
joequin · 1 points · Posted at 19:45:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
New Yorkers police themselves by yelling at tourists who break convention.
Pickled_Wizard · 1 points · Posted at 19:45:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I've heard tell that the British know how to queue.
Litacia · 1 points · Posted at 19:54:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
also works well in Vienna
chewbacccccca · 1 points · Posted at 21:03:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
it's not the law in the UK
Prysorra · 1 points · Posted at 18:08:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It would be nice if it one side of the tracks was exclusively for on, and the other off. Some time people-related problems are solved from removing choices ....
joeparni · 1 points · Posted at 19:38:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Lol it's not a law who tf is gonna stop that at rush hour
I_creampied_Jesus · -1 points · Posted at 19:12:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I usually just swear at the Indian or Chinese person (let's be honest here - it's always an Indian or Chinese person that doesn't understand common curtesy and does this) and say something like "can't you just wait a fucking second!?". I always feel like I've communicated a vital message to them as I stride off, feeing a mixture of anger and righteousness. Absolutely sucks balls when I mistakenly go the wrong way up the train platform and have to turn around and go back the way I came if I want to access the escalator. Even worse is when I pretend I am going that way for a reason and pretend to make a phonecall, still trying to maintain the pissed-off look. But then I just look like I'm trying to score drugs at a quiet part of the platform.
Fucking hate when that happens.
philosophiofantasia · 23 points · Posted at 17:28:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ditto with elevators. When I'm on an elevator, I stand right up to the door for this very reason.
GarbledReverie · 5 points · Posted at 18:47:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think that's true for any situation where the same passage is used for exiting and entering. Let the exiting people out first.
randomhero98 · 3 points · Posted at 21:19:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Had this happen last week. I was about to step out of the elevator and a woman just jumped in first. She apologized but I just wanted to say "well you wouldn't have to apologize had you just followed the simple rules" but social anxiety only let me get out a "well..." haha
cvetkathecow · 2 points · Posted at 17:54:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
True. That may be even more annoying.
jacob_ewing · 14 points · Posted at 17:14:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This bugs me, but what really drives me nuts is people who cluster halfway down the bus aisle, and then others who passively cluster up in front of them as they board, compressing like sardines when there's oodles of space at the back.
It doesn't bite people! what are you trying to do? group-act a giant butt plug?
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:31:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I find it is always like that when young students get on. Even when there a half a dozen seats available at the back, they insist on clustering near the front so they can talk loudly with their mates.
skallskitar · 29 points · Posted at 17:25:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But what if my train leaves before everyone has gotten off? I simply must get on now, you see.
[deleted] · 13 points · Posted at 17:37:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Lol, I wonder if that is actually what is going on in people's minds when they immediately try to rush into the bus/train right when the doors open.
sub_surfer · 9 points · Posted at 18:33:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
They probably want to make sure that they get a seat. It's stupid, but I imagine that is the motivation.
Fingebimus · 0 points · Posted at 18:39:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It happens often though
roomandcoke · 0 points · Posted at 19:04:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It totally is. Along with people's refusal to step off to let people out if they're riding in the doorway. "I can't leave the train yet, this isn't my stop! What if I get left behind?"
Atomicide · 5 points · Posted at 17:32:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
To extend this. The train isn't leaving any faster anyway. With all the people dancing around and filtering through each other it's probably taking longer.
The train driver does not see you push on and think "that guy is now on, lets fucking roll" before peeling out of the station leaving everyone else behind, and other passengers spilling out the door to their deaths. That would be absurd, almost as absurd as some cunt pushing onto the train before letting people off.
cvetkathecow · 1 points · Posted at 18:10:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Hahaha right! Didn't thought I'd get a good laugh in the replies, so thanks!
DemiGod9 · 6 points · Posted at 17:30:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Fuck you! I'm going to continue to try to pour new water into this full glass of water!
cvetkathecow · 2 points · Posted at 18:03:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Haha the exact analogy on my mind when typing the comment.
snowflakelord · 5 points · Posted at 17:45:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
We have signs in all public transport in Denmark saying this. Sometimes also a service announcement saying "Make room for passengers leaving the train", and the signs basically say "First out, then in".
cvetkathecow · 2 points · Posted at 18:07:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Much needed signs. Do people act accordingly?
snowflakelord · 2 points · Posted at 18:23:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
They mostly do. In the train and metro you enter/exit at any door obviously, while the bus has entrance only up front, and exit in the middle and back. So in the bus it's not really a problem at all.
ChaDonSom · 9 points · Posted at 17:29:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Isn't it an unstable equilibrium though?
If you wait, the people who don't will get in before you.
I suppose it's usually only more evident in places where public transport is over-burdened.
Kjerru-kun · 7 points · Posted at 17:40:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I was thinking the same thing. If only few people do this they get an advantage over the chumps who wait until everyone gets out! Doesn't get you a lot of friends though, but hey, you got your windows seat.
cvetkathecow · 4 points · Posted at 17:57:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
As a person living in a big city it's quite evident. It's inconceivable that people cannot follow the simple logic I mentioned.
And, what's wrong with people getting in before you? I understand the wish to sit down but can't help but imagine a world in which everybody waits and then gets in patiently.
ChaDonSom · 2 points · Posted at 18:47:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If the transport system is over-burdened, there's not enough room for everyone, so if you wait too long you'll have to take the next train/bus.
It definitely doesn't seem logical to rush in when the system has enough room for everyone.
cvetkathecow · 1 points · Posted at 06:31:27 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
We're talking about the same thing. The overburden shouldn't be the passengers' problem, it should be the municipality's. Passengers should not be forced to act that way.
In an alternate world where unicorns fly above rainbows.
madeamashup · 1 points · Posted at 18:55:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If your imagination is that good, imagine there isn't enough space for everyone who wants on. There is, but imagine there isn't.
cvetkathecow · 1 points · Posted at 06:35:57 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I know there isn't, but you can imagine a better transportation system and a better educated society.
We still can make the situation better though with our behavior in everyday encounters.
HalfCasual · 4 points · Posted at 17:48:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This but in relation to elevators is incredibly fucking irritating!
Went to Ikea this weekend to return a bed I decided was too large for the room it was going in. get on the elevator to go up to returns and exchanges with a cart and 5 very long, and heavy boxes stacked on it. Doors open for me to get off, and standing there are 2 people blocking the elevator entrance standing side by side with their carts full of large heavy boxes. How did you think this was going to work? I was going to pass through you by some sort of supernatural means? move the fuck out of the way!
cvetkathecow · 2 points · Posted at 18:06:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Haven't you developed your superpowers yet? Those two did nothing to deserve that kind of treatment.
Gah, don't they see what's in front of them?
HalfCasual · 3 points · Posted at 18:23:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I was blessed with the gift of super sarcasm when I turned 13. not really helpful to anyone, but I laugh a lot.
cvetkathecow · 2 points · Posted at 20:08:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A wonderful gift. Turns out it's helpful at least on reddit as I appreciate it.
woaiJess · 4 points · Posted at 17:58:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I live in NYC and it's a disaster. So we have two groups of people waiting on both sides of the door. You have to count on everyone doing the right thing and wait for the people to exit. But if one side start ramming themselves in before everyone's out, chances are everyone behind him will shove themselves in too. By the time everyone's out, the subway is full again. By being the nice citizen you just got shafted from entering the train along with the people behind you.
It sucks but the bad guys often win here. One guy ruins it for everyone. If everyone is orderly, then I would never not wait until everyone's out.
Ugh
cvetkathecow · 1 points · Posted at 18:20:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I live in a big city too, not as big as NYC but the situation you described is the same here. Now that's even more annoying. I sometimes tell people to wait for me to get off when I struggle to get off but I'm almost certain that they just see me as a disrespectful young person.
a49fsd · 1 points · Posted at 19:47:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Good luck getting on that F train being a nice guy in the morning!
chaun2 · 3 points · Posted at 18:13:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Serious question, is this an everywhere thing or just limited to the US? Because holy fuck, San Diego, New York, Chicago, LA, even fucking Kissimmee which really shouldn't count here, but still somehow has this issue. .....
cvetkathecow · 2 points · Posted at 18:25:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm not living in the US, so no, it's probably not. :/
MustHugEveryCat · 3 points · Posted at 18:17:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I get so triggered when a bunch of people just crowd at the front of the bus, fuck, I can't get by without rubbing up against people just to get to the perfectly roomy middle/back of the bus.
cvetkathecow · 2 points · Posted at 18:38:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oh that too! Why, just why don't they move from the front?
bob_blah_bob · 3 points · Posted at 18:21:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Isn't that why busses have 2 doors? Get out in the back and pay the driver in the front?
xerox13ster · 5 points · Posted at 17:33:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
THIS, BUT WITH ELEVATORS TOO, THOUGH.
In middle school I thought it was the stupidest lesson ever because we lived in the country where few buildings if any were multi level for a long time, but my 8th grade English teacher taught us elevator manners as part of the manners portion of her class.
Now I live in the city and people are crowded right around the door to get in like it's gonna leave before I get off.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:08:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oh my god this. People need to take a fucking step back from the door so i can get out of the fucking lift
ikerus0 · 2 points · Posted at 17:47:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Same with elevators. If you are waiting for the elevator, when the doors open, just wait a moment before getting on to see if anyone needs to get off first.
ExtraSmooth · 2 points · Posted at 17:55:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Same with elevators and crowded rooms
cobra-kai_dojo · 2 points · Posted at 18:23:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Like the angry person trying to shove onto a full elevator while four are trying to leave?
cvetkathecow · 1 points · Posted at 18:42:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
M hm.
megveg · 2 points · Posted at 18:31:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Same with elevators.
radrax · 2 points · Posted at 18:39:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
People get shoved/publicly shamed for not following this rule in NYC
cvetkathecow · 2 points · Posted at 06:28:10 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't see any other way to teach people this rule, so this is good to hear.
raybb · 2 points · Posted at 18:44:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In Taiwan they actually are very orderly and wait. It's kind of amazing.
See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0-4UqErjnY
vis_chros · 2 points · Posted at 20:04:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, I've been to Taiwan a few times and the Taipei metro system is great and the people using it are very well behaved. The metro stations have lanes printed on the floor for people to wait in, which leaves plenty of space for people getting of the train to move to the station exits. The tracks have barriers with sliding doors that only open when the train has stopped and which perfectly align with the doors in the trains.
I don't know why this kind of system isn't implemented in more large cities.
cvetkathecow · 1 points · Posted at 06:27:46 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
It really is amazing especially in rush hour.
SuhweetJesus · 2 points · Posted at 19:05:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
While that's what a lot of people here in Chicago do, their idea of "letting people off first" is crowding around the bus/train door so the exit crowd has to push through anyways. Just step aside for five seconds and let them pass ffs.
Chuchoter · 2 points · Posted at 19:06:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is common courtesy in Asia. I was in Hong Kong and they have people during peak tourism months to guide people off the subway first then let people in. It's great.
I've waited 12 years for the Toronto subway to do something similar. Still waiting.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:15:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I feel like there's more concern about not bringing shamev to yourself or your family or friends in many Asian cultures and conforming is encouraged. On the contrary, in the west there's an attitude of 'don't worry what others think', be yourself etc. This can lead to public displays of selfishness a lot more in the latter case. I'm not evaluating which one is better, but it helps explain why the situation for public order is more effective in many Asian countries
Chuchoter · 1 points · Posted at 01:58:11 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
True, and density is higher in Asia. If everyone was individualistic, it would be chaos in the streets.
cvetkathecow · 1 points · Posted at 06:37:26 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oh no, I had higher expectations from Toronto!
Chuchoter · 2 points · Posted at 17:34:49 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Really? I didn't. Our transit system (buses, subways, streetcars) are all from the 70s.
cvetkathecow · 1 points · Posted at 17:55:44 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I was referring to the attitude of people. Eh, I guess it's another big city after all. Were you referring to people that guide? I didn't expect that in anywhere.
Chuchoter · 2 points · Posted at 23:39:41 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oh! Haha TO being a big city does have a bit of influence in the behaviour but yes I was referring to the guides. Asia tends to invest a bit more in educating the public/enforcing various norms.
cvetkathecow · 2 points · Posted at 05:59:09 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
We the rest have so much to learn from Asians. Thank you for teaching me something :)
hai1337 · 2 points · Posted at 19:12:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
For trains, every time a train arrives we're reminded of that... Our announcements are like "The train to (destination) is arriving. Please let passengers exit first." Unless it's a terminus where empty trains arrive. We also have arrows that instruct people to wait at the two sides. Don't worry, because tourists and old people happen.
For buses, we have two doors, one for boarding and one for alighting. For some lines with two way section fares you need to use a smart card again when alighting to get a refund and on those lines sometimes drivers will let you alight at the front door, but people definitely don't board on the back door. Do american buses only have one door or something?
For minibuses, we usually let people off first, and usually equal amounts of people will be let in. As soon as that person boards, the door is closed while the minibus accelerates.
For elevators we usually do the same as trains.
For trams, the boarding and alighting doors are far apart so there isn't much of a problem, although the door-closing still feels a bit like minibuses.
cvetkathecow · 1 points · Posted at 06:47:47 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Where is this magical land?
I'm not living in the US. The comments suggest that it is a widespread issue.
hai1337 · 2 points · Posted at 17:11:12 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Hong Kong Also, it's not as magical as it seems sometimes... e.g. Faulty trains, and for peak hours some people do rush in no matter what, and the section between train cars is almost always emptier than the rest.
growlingbear · 2 points · Posted at 19:18:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well, I'll be pushed by the people behind me not wanting to wait for the other people to get off.
cvetkathecow · 1 points · Posted at 06:41:28 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I tell people I'm waiting for people to get off out loud when they do that.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:19:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Situations like these is where the innate weakness and greed of every Belgian surfaces.
cvetkathecow · 2 points · Posted at 06:40:20 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's sad to find out how widespread this problem is.
juvily · 2 points · Posted at 19:29:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Same with elevators. Every time I wait for an elevator, I always stand to the side so anyone already in can exit first. Then I can go inside without much hassle and more space.
But for some reason when I'm in an elevator and the doors open to show someone on the other side, there's a good chance they're right at the entryway. So now we have this awkward "excuse me, sorry" thing going. It's like they never expected the elevator to be used by people.
cvetkathecow · 1 points · Posted at 06:39:29 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Apparently you've been using their private elevators. Your bad.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:36:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
everyone has this idea that the doors will close like 2 seconds after they open so they need to get on/off the train immediately. In reality this mentality just makes it take longer for everyone involved.
cvetkathecow · 1 points · Posted at 06:04:01 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
The logic turns out to be simpler as you think of it and the fact that most people can't follow it becomes more frustrating.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:36:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I've been fighting for this for over 20 odd years. Educating one (sometimes two) selfish twat at a time. By walking all over them if they try to board while I'm trying to alight. No exceptions. No apologies. No looking back. Just a blank stare ahead as I bump into them with my hips and guts behind it. Fuck you.
cvetkathecow · 1 points · Posted at 06:01:20 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I do the exact same thing! Not sure whether they understand why I do that though. They may just be thinking they met a rude person who bumped into them and didn't say a thing afterwards.
felixwatts · 2 points · Posted at 19:38:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Also, you won't get off the plane any quicker by standing in the aisle before the doors are opened.
cvetkathecow · 1 points · Posted at 06:05:00 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Those that stand give me a good laugh everytime. At least they don't cause traffic.
J_Jammer · 2 points · Posted at 19:41:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Every time I visit New York I never understood why people rush to get on when people are trying to get off.
JamminJcruz · 2 points · Posted at 19:44:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Last one on gets to be the 1st one off
cvetkathecow · 1 points · Posted at 06:06:37 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yet another point that makes waiting more logical.
vomirrhea · 2 points · Posted at 19:45:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Same goes with elevators
Jair-Bear · 2 points · Posted at 19:47:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Same for lining up (or queuing) to board a plane. Especially if they use a group system and you're in one of the last groups. GET OUT OF MY WAY, PEASANT!
teatime89 · 2 points · Posted at 19:49:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
To add to this if the train or bus or whatever it is you are on is packed and you are near the door, please step out for 2 seconds to let others trapped behind you out.
Shit drives me bonkers .
SquigglyGiggles · 2 points · Posted at 19:51:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The same with elevators. Drives me nuts.
NMJD · 2 points · Posted at 19:51:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes! Yes yes yes. Also, if you are getting off the bus/train and there are people standing who are also trying to get off: let those people get off first. It will be easier for you and you will get off faster than if you stand up and try to push your way in front of them.
WME0WM · 2 points · Posted at 19:52:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's how people do it in Japan — there are even designated lines for where you should stand while waiting for people to get out
cvetkathecow · 1 points · Posted at 06:10:01 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Can Japan teach that to the rest of the world? We'd be forever grateful.
MommyBooger · 2 points · Posted at 19:53:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When my daughter and I are waiting for an elevator, or something similar, I make it a point to remind her to wait for anyone exiting to do so first. It's a good reminder for her and anyone else who might be waiting too.
BillyJackO · 2 points · Posted at 19:53:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Also, don't stand close to the luggage carousel.
cvetkathecow · 1 points · Posted at 06:16:10 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
But that makes your luggage appear earlier!
tiger3645 · 2 points · Posted at 19:56:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I thought this was always the case because In my country, everyone does it. Where are you from?
cvetkathecow · 1 points · Posted at 06:25:09 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I thought this was never the case since everyone shared similar stories. Where are you from?
tiger3645 · 2 points · Posted at 10:21:48 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Good point. I'm from Uruguay, a small country in South America.
cvetkathecow · 1 points · Posted at 10:47:46 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I've only heard good things about Uruguay thus far. I'm from Turkey, a big country next to Middle East.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:56:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I have the best cranky bus driver story.
One time here in Airdrie Alberta a driver pulled up with a bus full of commuters from Calgary and this one guy was in the front of the line of onboarding passengers. He storms on the bus and almost knocks over the passengers that were getting off. The driver kicks him off the bus and makes him wait at the back of the line. The line all gets on, when it comes to his turn the driver just says "looks like we are full, next bus in 30", closes the door and takes off. It was amazing.
cvetkathecow · 1 points · Posted at 06:15:35 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is the most satisfying anecdote on this subject ever. You have our gratitude, cranky bus driver. Teaching common sense one passenger (or one bus) at a time.
HiddenShorts · 2 points · Posted at 20:00:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Same thing with elevators. I've gotten to where I stand right in the middle while waiting for the door to open. Great when I shock somebody rushing to get in.
JNTHNHCKS · 2 points · Posted at 20:07:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes! Also, if you're standing once you get on, move ALL the way to the back. I don't know how many times I've seen people stop midway down the aisle, while people are still trying to cram into the front of the bus. It's not that hard to understand!
RxiZBac0n · 2 points · Posted at 20:28:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Same thing when it comes to getting off an elevator. Like, can your family please wait for me to step out before piling in?
Mastur_Of_Bait · 2 points · Posted at 20:40:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When I was going on an airport coach a few months ago there was one guy with a huge guitar case who tried to get on the bus before any passengers got off, the bus driver yelled "WILL YA LET THEM OFF THE BUS FIRST FOR FUCKS SAKE" at him.
cvetkathecow · 1 points · Posted at 06:18:39 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ah, that must've been music to those passengers' ears.
Noxzaru · 2 points · Posted at 21:25:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I read that as "If you wait for people to get off ON a public transportation vehicle...." Reddit ruined me, though I suppose that logic would work also.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 23:13:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah that logic only works with people that follow rules. I waited like you said, and people had rushed in and packed the subway before i could get on. I stopped waiting after that.
yomamaisonfier · 2 points · Posted at 23:36:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
please exit from the back door
Every time our bus stops, this is said on speakers. People on the back of the fucking bus will get up, and go alllll the way to the front of the bus, push through people getting on, to get off.
cvetkathecow · 1 points · Posted at 06:23:22 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oh wow. What else can be done to explain this to people? Is this what we call civilization? Is this the last point humanity has come to, really?
This leads me to an existential crisis.
(P.S.: I'm being overly dramatic for emphasis, if that doesn't translate)
T_PBn_J · 3 points · Posted at 17:36:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ive learned theres really no such thing as waiting to get on the subway in Boston alot of the time. After the last of the huddled mass of people finally leave room for you to walk on the train its too late. The drivers close the door at the last sign of mass movement and you and the polite few who waited to not get trampled get left behind.
cvetkathecow · 3 points · Posted at 18:08:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Then the problem is not being polite, it's insufficient means of public transport. Being forced to compromise basic human decency must be frustrating.
Lyn1987 · 4 points · Posted at 15:31:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I will passive aggressively stand next to the equipment and stare until the person takes the hint gets off the machine.
jmerridew124 · 8 points · Posted at 17:08:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Wrong comment chain bro
Lyn1987 · 4 points · Posted at 17:22:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Same principle though.
jmerridew124 · 3 points · Posted at 17:31:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Until the train doors close and it leaves without you, the offender slowly making his way to the stairs, still engrossed with his phone, completely unaware you're still glaring at him.
BlackMagic11832 · 1 points · Posted at 18:06:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
proceeds to miss train every time
sikemms · 1 points · Posted at 18:19:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You mean all this time of jumping on an elevator before everyone is off is not the most productive way to go up?
CaptainObvious_1 · 1 points · Posted at 18:20:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't understand why my wife doesn't understand this. Every time she does it to and I give her the "dude??" Look.
V1rtus · 1 points · Posted at 19:50:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Plus it's logical behaviour to wait for others to get off, before you get off.
earthling105 · 4036 points · Posted at 14:44:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That 10% of 90% is exactly the same as 90% of 10%.
I taught high school math once. True story.
Barack-YoMama · 2049 points · Posted at 15:29:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
X% of Y = XY/100
Y% of X = YX/100 = XY/100
I_ASK_WEIRD_QUES · 662 points · Posted at 17:15:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
thanks my dumbass needed this
ImAScholarMother · 9 points · Posted at 19:18:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
numbers & algebra are such a useful invention! Improvements in notation across the board in math are pretty underrated. Trying to understand even simple concepts from Ancient to Medieval texts and later where it's just words is soo much harder
null_work · 3 points · Posted at 20:58:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You don't even need to go that far back. Look at a lot of Euler's works. He of course created a lot of the notation we use today, but something as simply expressed as Euler's Theorem, aφ(n\) ≡ 1 (mod n) was written in a series of words that does not nearly convey the information as easily as the aforementioned bit of notation. Congruency wasn't a concept until Gauss, his Euler's totient function was written simply as words and so on.
NaKehoonSeBair · 2 points · Posted at 19:33:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ask a question.
nemo_sum · 1 points · Posted at 20:55:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Or 0.9*0.1 = 0.1*0.9
Chlikaflok · 2 points · Posted at 22:12:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Right! I hope no one in this thread learned the commutativity of multiplication here. If so, my understanding of what 90% of people don't know just exploded my mind!
A_Doormat · 26 points · Posted at 17:58:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oh okay so 5% of 24,560 is 24,560% of 5.
Okay so...just...multiply the 5....carry the four and uh...that's uh....
n0gat · 22 points · Posted at 18:26:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Btw: if anyone is wondering how to do this quick, just take 10% of 24560 (aka drop the zero at the end) and half it. So 2456/2 = 1228.
wsteelerfan7 · 11 points · Posted at 18:31:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, but where do I draw the lines, count the vertices and group them into weird give +take shit?
/s
SlipperyFrob · 4 points · Posted at 19:01:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not all math is complicated
LupoBorracio · 2 points · Posted at 19:27:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's only used in graphing a visual representation of a changing function.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:17:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
uhhh...
irotsoma · 4 points · Posted at 19:18:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And if you want to know why X% of Y = XY/100 because to me that leap is a little too much:
X% of Y =
...
% = /100
of = *
...
X/100 * Y = XY/100
fj333 · 8 points · Posted at 18:56:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
More simply: 0.1 x 0.9 == 0.9 x 0.1
[deleted] · -1 points · Posted at 19:09:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
fj333 · 6 points · Posted at 19:50:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Correct, only the precise thing that I was responding to.
Turbo_Moon · 2 points · Posted at 17:41:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My friend thanks you
yoshiohka · 2 points · Posted at 19:45:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My middle school math teacher always said to that "of" is just like "*" or "times"
ocean365 · 2 points · Posted at 19:56:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Fuckin why is pokemon so complicated now wtf
Gornarok · 2 points · Posted at 18:22:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Too much math and why are you using letters? /s
gregthedj · 3 points · Posted at 18:35:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You're blowing my goddamn mind right now.
theFriendly_Duck · 2 points · Posted at 19:07:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I have a maths test coming up on wednesday, and this is a really simple way to summarize all the complicated, long explanations in my book. Thank you so much.
Edit: or like /u/I_ASK_WEIRD_QUES said.
RyGuy997 · -2 points · Posted at 19:41:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
...are you 10?
theFriendly_Duck · 3 points · Posted at 19:48:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Only when it comes to maths. But thanks for that lovely pick-me-up.
RyGuy997 · -2 points · Posted at 19:55:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I mean: this is elementary school math, you must be a child if you're being tested on this.
theFriendly_Duck · 3 points · Posted at 19:59:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I failed maths in high school, so to get into college now, they are testing me on it. Not just this, but you need to know the basics before you can continue with the terrible hyperboles and stuff.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 02:44:00 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I guess this is why they say college isn't for everyone...
TrippyTriangle · 1 points · Posted at 19:17:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
yay for commutative rules.
futbolzach5 · 1 points · Posted at 19:44:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Username checks out
adamsmith987 · 1 points · Posted at 19:49:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"Why does everything have to be so complicate. Why can't you just go fuck yourself"
Tocoapuffs · 1 points · Posted at 20:01:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This only shows that it's true if you take out the second percentage signs.
X% of Y% = XY/1002
Y% of X% = YX/1002 = XY/1002
Ok, I'm good now.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:05:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
0.1*0.9*1 = 0.9*0.1*1
so 10% of 20% of 30% ... of 90% is the same as 90% of 80% of 70% ... of 10%.
dafapguy · 1 points · Posted at 20:21:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
u/gorpixx posted this a while back too I've been using it ever since!
ingannilo · 1 points · Posted at 22:00:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
ERMAGERD They've started to COMMUTE!
what_it_dude · 0 points · Posted at 19:30:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Fake math
Thrumpledenoozitty · 994 points · Posted at 15:54:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I work in retail. We often have a promotion of say, 40% off something. Then you can get a coupon to give you an additional 10% off. That means 10% off the reduced price. I've only met about two people so far who understand that this does not represent 50% off the original price. I've gotten into heated arguments with customers about this. While not "basic" math, this is really low-level functional math that most kids will learn in elementary school. Why does the understanding of it escape many adults?
Edit: Okay, since I'm tired of explaining this in comments. When you sit down and explain to customers using human words that first we take the 40% off and THEN we take the 10% off that total, they will look at you and say, "YAY 50% OFF!!!" Happens every day. It's not misleading verbiage/advertising, it's straight up that people don't know how percentages work, even when you explain it to them in detail.
flat5 · 905 points · Posted at 17:06:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"Additional 10% off" is actually ambiguous, unless you specify off of what.
[deleted] · 329 points · Posted at 17:41:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Exactly. It's not like the wording is clear. People aren't wrong to be confused.
The original discount is on the original pricing. If you phrase it as "Get an additional 10% off!" - the most logical way of understanding it is that the additional discount is applied to the original pricing as well.
Almost everybody would understand that 10% of the discounted pricing is lower than 10% of the original price, but that's not what people are disputing. If I run an ad that says "Buy 1 beer, get the 2nd beer free!" and then I price you a beer for 1.5 the competitor's price... you're going to feel like you "didn't get the additional 10% off" like you were mislead to believe.
Jatrap · 17 points · Posted at 18:26:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My place of employment gives 25% off to employees. Recently thy had a sign up that was astonishingly misworded. I think it said "additional 35% discount". But what they meant was that your 25% is now 35%.
thenarddog13 · 42 points · Posted at 18:34:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's just plain wrong, no ambiguity about it.
Jatrap · 5 points · Posted at 19:05:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I really wish I had a picture of one of the signs to show you guys. I just asked a coworker and he says it read, "Enjoy an additional discount: 35%".
ER_nesto · 2 points · Posted at 21:27:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think it's supposed to mean
ostreatus · 1 points · Posted at 23:47:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That does slightly contextualize it more with the colon.
growlingbear · 3 points · Posted at 19:20:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Uhhhh What?
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:56:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If I try to bamboozle you, you're in the right to be displeased and/or question it.
Marketing has become "How can I bamboozle my clients as most as possible, legally?"
growlingbear · 1 points · Posted at 19:57:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I agree.
frogjg2003 · 2 points · Posted at 18:06:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In that situation, the customer isn't going to notice. Unless you're selling right next to the competitor, so they're not going to compare. They just think they're getting a whole second beer for nothing.
[deleted] · 8 points · Posted at 18:09:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Precisely. The intent is for the customer to think he's getting a deal, NOT for the customer to actually get one.
frogjg2003 · 1 points · Posted at 18:22:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But there's a difference between the two situations. In your situation, the customer doesn't know they're not getting as good of a deal as they think they are (but they still are getting a better deal than the cost of two beers from their competitor). In the 10% off situation, the customer thinks they're getting a bad deal.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:03:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't think it's really necessary to be that granular about it, the general idea is that the customer is mislead to believe he's getting a deal he's not.
rillip · -1 points · Posted at 19:21:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It is ambiguous. But it's also dumb to make the assumption that it's going to go the way which has the greatest benefit to you vs. the way that's going to have the greatest benefit to the store. Honestly, you shouldn't assume either, you should ask someone at the store for clarification. But if you're going to make an assumption, assuming it means an additional 10% off the original price is the worse one to make.
Consider this as well: if you assume that it's off the original price then if you're wrong you've set yourself up for disappointment. If you assume that the 10 % additional comes off the total after other discounts are applied then if you're wrong you've set yourself up for a pleasant surprise.
Edit: look this is a thing people do in other areas too and it's an aggravating and annoying behavior. When something like this is ambiguous they always seem to assume whichever possible answer works most in their favor and then when they're wrong they get pissed off. If you do this it makes you look like an entitled asshole. I'm not saying it makes you an entitled asshole. But it makes you look that way to any third parties present. Stop and thinking about things sometimes. Remember, when you assume you make an ass of you and me.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:55:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You're implying customers should really think this through before going to the store, when we're talking about (in many cases) small purchases.
rillip · 1 points · Posted at 19:57:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not really. You just have to think this through once. Ever. In your entire life. And you're good.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:08:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What exactly? That anytime something can be interpreted differently, that I should just accept getting rammed in the ass?
No thanks.
rillip · 1 points · Posted at 20:25:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No that's not what's happening here at all? How is you making an assumption about an ambiguous statement someone else ramming you in the ass?
Bigbysjackingfist · 6 points · Posted at 19:25:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
the "of what" is the reference class, and it's a pretty pervasive source of ambiguity
PedanticPendant · 4 points · Posted at 19:20:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
We need to start talking about the promotion as a "factor of 0.6" and the coupon as a "factor of 0.9", then your customers get a combined factor of 0.6 x 0.9 - no ambiguity.
/naïveté
blahblahrasputan · 3 points · Posted at 19:27:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But that's the point also. It's the same as "up to 50% off". It could be 5% off an item, it could be 0% off another, as long as one item in the store is 50% off then the sign is correct.
It's using hype to get people in the store by reading into it what they want to read. But hey, that's just what marketing is. You present a glossy version of the facts and hope people see what they want to see.
flat5 · 1 points · Posted at 07:05:16 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I agree the ambiguity is deliberate.
Keoaratr · 2 points · Posted at 19:33:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If I see the word "additional", I would be inclined to add the 10% to the 40%
GulaBilen · 1 points · Posted at 20:11:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't think the word "additional" were on the coupon. So i don't think that's were the customers is going wrong.
But yeah if the word additional were stated on a coupon i would think its stacking with any previous price-reduction. And i would also somewhat assume that the product is already got a reduced price.
flawr · 2 points · Posted at 18:12:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That is where the distinction between percent and percentage point comes in handy - at least for the seemingly few who actually understand and use it.
funke42 · 3 points · Posted at 18:56:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Relevant xkcd
https://xkcd.com/985/
queenmargaery · 227 points · Posted at 16:37:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think that's why large chain shops don't allow you to use coupons on sale items. That and their own profit of course.
[deleted] · 4 points · Posted at 17:58:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Csusmatt · 5 points · Posted at 19:19:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's only because "sale" prices at Kohl's are just the MSRP.
craignons · 1 points · Posted at 19:34:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Wouldn't it be more profitable for them to let you do that though?
Let's say you're buying 2 items which would normally both be 40 dollars. One of them is on sale for 10% off and you have a coupon for 25% off that you can apply to either item. If you applied it to the sale item it would cost you 67 dollars, but on the non-sale item it would cost you 66 dollars...?
queenmargaery · 1 points · Posted at 14:49:36 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ah yes you're right. But I suppose that they want to sell as many items as possible to empty all the stock, not double-deduct the same item.
[deleted] · 284 points · Posted at 16:59:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you told me I could get an additional 10% off of something that's currently on sale at 40% off, I would probably assume it was 50% off total, too. If, instead, you told me I could get 10% off the currently marked price, I would assume the thing you want me to assume.
My two cents, fwiw.
ACuddlySnowBear · 41 points · Posted at 17:54:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I agree. I don't think it's an issue of how the math works, but an issue of misunderstanding what is meant by "an additional X% off". I put the blame on the store, not the consumer.
gyroda · 10 points · Posted at 18:58:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's literally in the word "additional. It's not a multiplier.
10% off marked price is different though. If it's marked at 50% off and you have 50% off marked price it's clear that it's 25%, not free.
ACuddlySnowBear · 2 points · Posted at 19:03:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm not quite sure what you're trying to argue. You could use the word "additional" in both cases:
"An additional 10% off the sale price." "An additional 10% off the retail price."
In either case you're still adding savings, just different amounts.
GlyphGryph · 6 points · Posted at 19:14:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you leave it unqualified, an "additional 10% off" implies its being added to whatever the original "percent off" is - essentially, that its qualified itself.
I think thats a good default assumption, and anyone who uses the language without qualifying it probably intended for it it to come across that way even if they wanted the math to work the other way.
gyroda · 2 points · Posted at 20:07:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Additional in contrast to multiplicative.
Rylth · 6 points · Posted at 18:00:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No one would understand what they meant if they said "a multiplicative % off."
GlyphGryph · 6 points · Posted at 19:12:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But at least they would know they didn't understand it, instead of them understanding it incorrectly.
ACuddlySnowBear · 2 points · Posted at 18:25:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Fair point. It still feels intentionally misleading
Countdwn2static · 3 points · Posted at 18:49:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It feels intentionally misleading because it is. It's also retail 101.
Source: Worked retail for 10 years
Nuklearius · 2 points · Posted at 19:47:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
maybe thats being confused in translation to German, but if someone writes "additional" I definitely assume that the percentages are added up instead of multiplied!
The_Antlion · 4 points · Posted at 18:52:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The point of it is to confuse people into spending more money, without actually lying to them.
Gornarok · 1 points · Posted at 18:22:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This pretty much.
But most of the time you cant use two deductions.
Mewmageddon · 1 points · Posted at 17:59:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Exactly. It's not necessarily the math that's escaping people on this one
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:59:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I agree, the problem with percentages is the wording and ambiguity of it is crucial.
shif · -1 points · Posted at 18:00:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
additional 10% off from 40% its still
price * .6 * .9notprice * .5so a $100 would be $54, not $50frogandbanjo · 13 points · Posted at 16:53:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes, in that example it's definitely nothing to do with deliberately misleading anyone. No company would ever do that!
/s
[deleted] · -3 points · Posted at 17:43:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
KnowsAboutMath · 6 points · Posted at 18:02:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What is the wording?
Leveros · -4 points · Posted at 16:58:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There's nothing misleading about that. They're giving the exact discount they say they are. It's just math. 40% off and then an additional 10% does not equal 50%.
Bobthemightyone · 9 points · Posted at 17:24:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It says "additional 10% off" I would assume it's 50%. If I brought a coupon that was 10% for a 40% item then I would figure it's "10% off whatever the end price is"
"Additional 10%" seems to imply 10% + 40% = 50%, not 10% * 40% = 44%
I mean, I wouldn't be upset if I asked and they clarified. I would just go to "additional" meaning "additive" percentage reduction. If they said 10% off final sale that would also help.
Leveros · 2 points · Posted at 17:31:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The problem here is that they're two separate coupons. Maybe it's just me, but I've never seen two percentage coupons where the percentages add together to get pulled off your subtotal.
[deleted] · 6 points · Posted at 17:58:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think you're flipflopping. Why would someone have a single (unrelated to anything else) coupon that says "Get an additional 10% off"?
Bobthemightyone · 4 points · Posted at 17:35:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ah okay. I think we're talking about two different things. I'm talking about deals (usually holiday deals) with stuff like
and I think you're talking about
In your case you're totally correct. It's two seperate discounts, so they'll multiply and people really should understand that. The ones I'm talking about they usually advertise the whole thing as one big deal.
edit: I also think I misread a comment. I read /u/thrumpledenoozitty comment as the coupon being part of the deal, while I think he may have meant for it to be a separate coupon that happens to coincide with the sale date.
Leveros · 2 points · Posted at 17:38:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Then it that case yes I agree it'd be misleading. I work retail and we have a continuous 15% off coupon that anyone can get, and then another 20% coupon signup. People have the hardest time understanding that they amount to 32% off because they're two different coupons.
[deleted] · 4 points · Posted at 17:59:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If it happens so often, have you considered that it's not advertised clearly?
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:46:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Even so, I think discounts should always apply on the original pricing.
Needs_More_Gravitas · 5 points · Posted at 17:08:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you don't specify that it's multiplicative instead of additive why should I assume one or the other?
Leveros · -1 points · Posted at 17:10:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Because they're two separate discounts. I don't think I've ever seen two percentage discounts stack additively. Why would any company use a coupon system that gives you a bigger discount?
professorboat · 8 points · Posted at 17:23:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's like saying why would any company give a 20% off coupon instead of a 10% one.
Leveros · -1 points · Posted at 17:29:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Coupon system was the wrong word choice, more like coupon interaction. It's like having a buy one get one free where you pay only for the cheaper item. Financially, it doesn't make sense to give them the best possible outcome using the coupons that they already have. That ~4% difference isn't going to be a deal breaker for 99% of customers.
professorboat · 4 points · Posted at 17:41:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But it might be at the margin, and a company could easily decide that that was the profit maximising way of having a sale. A BOGOF offer where the most expensive item was free would be very easily gamed, so it's not really comparable.
The example business was already offering a 40% sale and 10% off coupons which can be combined, so it's not absurd to think they might decide to offer 50% off in combination, rather than 46%. They might sell enough more at 50% off than 46% off for it to be worth it working that way.
Leveros · 1 points · Posted at 17:44:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But that 10% is coming off of something that was already reduced by 40%. I guess as someone who works retail I might be too close to this, I just assumed that people would think of all coupons in this fashion.
professorboat · 2 points · Posted at 18:14:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
To be fair, I would also assume that it worked to give a 46% discount (in fact, I would assume that you couldn't combine discounts - you usually can't in my experience). I just think that it isn't impossible to imagine a company deciding it that interpreting it additively was in their best interests (nor totally unreasonable of customers to interpret it that way and think it was reasonable).
ffxivthrowaway03 · 6 points · Posted at 17:22:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
By that logic, why would any company use a coupon system that gives you any discount at all?
Additive percentage points really isn't all that far fetched of a concept. If they're willing to discount an item by 50%, why wouldn't they be willing to discount by 40%, then bump it to 50% with a coupon? It's all about what's going to move more sales in that particular situation.
Leveros · 0 points · Posted at 17:25:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Because a lot of people refuse to buy something unless they see they're getting it for a discount. I'll concede that it may be taking advantage of people who are less intelligent to have the coupons function the way they do, but I don't think it's misleading, especially when it's explained to people using the discounts.
[deleted] · 5 points · Posted at 18:02:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's not an intelligence thing. People are being told they get 50% off through easy 40+10 wording, but then discover they were mislead due to fine-printed jambalaya. It happens all the time. I was shopping for backpacks and some said 60L+10L carrying capacity, but the truth is that all backpacks have that "+10L" because it was referring to stuff you can just carry hanging out of it.
Companies know its misleading, but 40+10 gets people through the door, and the law lets them do it... so why would they stop?
ffxivthrowaway03 · 2 points · Posted at 17:52:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's not that it's misleading, it's that how they could be additive isn't somehow unreasonable. The wording as it is on most coupons is simply ambiguous.
The idea being pushed by a lot of people that people are "stupid" for not magically assuming that they're multiplicative is simply nonsense. It could easily go either way the vast majority of the time.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:22:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Leveros · 2 points · Posted at 17:26:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There is a very prominent group of consumers that will buy a shirt that is on sale from an original price of $20 down to $15, but wouldn't buy that exact same shirt if it wasn't on sale and priced at $14. Many people have to feel like they're getting a deal, even if they're not.
Ten_bucks_best_offer · 1 points · Posted at 19:38:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is something that I find hilarious. It is something that and old coworker of mine showed me to work. He used to buy items from customers and resell them. It was always a tussle. While the customers never wanted to pay full price, they always wanted to receive the full amount that they were asking for. So he teaches me the idea of "everyone just wants five dollars". He would low-ball people's price (sometimes borderline insultingly low) and the haggle would begin. My coworker would get to a number that he felt was top worth and argue for a bit. After a few minutes he would say something like "I'll tell you what. How about if I go up another $5?". And this would seal the deal. The people never realized that the extra five dollars they got still had them selling the item for a lot less than it was worth. But they felt like they won the price war.
"everyone just wants five dollars" became the foundation of my selling techniques and the inspiration for this username.
Tommy2255 · 8 points · Posted at 17:26:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I know that's true mathematically, but if I were your customer, I would still need to ask which way you were doing the math, because the wording could go either way. "An additional 10%" sure does sound an awful lot like you should add it to the existing discount, even if multiplying is an equally valid interpretation.
Thrumpledenoozitty · 1 points · Posted at 17:31:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No, I'm talking about, when it's explained to them. First we take off the 40% then the 10%. And they'll say, "Oh, so 50% off?" and I'll say no, its actually going to be 46% off the original price. Then confusion, then the calculator comes out and people get irate because they can't comprehend that 10% off a reduced price is not the same as 10% off a full price.
HardlightCereal · 4 points · Posted at 16:44:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
They think you meant percentage points because of ambiguity, and after they've started arguing the toss they (ironically) don't want to risk looking like an idiot.
Bobthemightyone · 7 points · Posted at 17:21:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
See it's the "additional" that would throw me off. If I saw an item 40% off and brought a 10% coupon then yeah it'll multiply and not add.
However when I see "additional" 10%, I assume additive % because additional kinda implies 40% + 10% not 40% * 10%
Thrumpledenoozitty · 0 points · Posted at 17:32:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No I know, it's explained that the 10% comes off after all other discounts. They still don't get the math.
Ganondorf_Is_God · 3 points · Posted at 17:28:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I mean, that's fairly ambiguous depending on the phrasing. If the majority are confused it's probably the adverts fault.
Thrumpledenoozitty · 0 points · Posted at 17:37:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes, yes I fully get this. This is not what's happening.
Thomas9002 · 15 points · Posted at 16:41:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What people are referring to are percentage points.
40% and 10% are 46% off
40% and 10% points are 50%
.
Edit: I was originally referring to an increase.
However I got that wrong as well (40% and 10% increase result in 1.4*1.1=1.54 )
[deleted] · 4 points · Posted at 17:04:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
factoid_ · 4 points · Posted at 17:39:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"points" is a finance term. They are always, as far as I'm aware, used in the additive sense, measured against an original amount.
If there's points on a mortgage, that means you're paying the prime rate plus however many point against the sale price of the home.
On a bond a point means 1% of the face value of the bond, etc.
The term "points" doesn't come up very often in discount language for retail, that I've ever seen, but it should still mean about the same thing.
Usually it's up to the store whether a 20% coupon and a 10% coupon will stack up to 30% or whether they take 10% of the remaining balance.
Not everyone does the latter because it just confuses customers and makes it harder for employees to calculate.
505404yyy · 1 points · Posted at 17:26:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Shouldn't it be 46%?
40% off initial price and 10% off the remainder is a cumulative reduction of 46%?
Precious poster seems to have worded it that way
solilo · 0 points · Posted at 17:28:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
40% off and 10% off are 46% off, not 44% off.
Sknowman · 0 points · Posted at 17:30:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It would be 46%. If something is $100 and it's 40% off, then it's $60. An additional 10% off would be $6, for $54, which is 46% off.
black360ninja · 0 points · Posted at 17:36:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
40% and an additional 10% , is actually 46% off the original price. 10 x 60% left = 6% of original
812many · 2 points · Posted at 17:58:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I've asked this question about coupons to people working the register and it's like a 5 minute conversation which includes examples to find out whether the extra 10% is off the original price of the already 40% off price. Drives me nuts that many people working don't know this, they just click buttons.
Thrumpledenoozitty · 2 points · Posted at 18:04:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You're right as well, I have many co-workers who don't understand this and can't explain it to customers either.
PaulTheMerc · 2 points · Posted at 18:19:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
if you don't use it, you lose it. That, and maybe they never really learned it solidly enough when they were in grade school. I can't remember most of my math and science personally. Why? Because when I was taught it it was just another unit to be crammed, with at the time, no usable and relatable applications.
Messiah1934 · 2 points · Posted at 18:38:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The other one that people seem to not understand is when you're talking about losing/gaining sales.
If i have $1,000,000 worth of sales and I lose 20% at the end of the year, next year I have to gain 25% just to break even. I've had employees IN THE SALES FIELD ask me why they didn't get a growth commission check for exactly the above scenario.
GlyphGryph · 2 points · Posted at 19:06:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"additional 10% off" definitely means they should be getting 50% off the original price. That's the wording used. Additional 10% off. Meaning you "add" 10% to the initial % you got off, which would mean you get 50%. That's a language issue, not a math issue, and it's a pretty clear language issue that leaves you on the wrong side of it.
It sounds like the problem here is that your company is intentionally misleading consumers and setting you up as the fall guy when they are called out on it.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:07:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
An additional 10% off means that the discount is being added. In other words 40% + 10% = 50%. So the customers are correct. Your store is just being deliberately misleading in order to get people in the store.
Now if the coupon said 10% off currently marked price, then you would have a case. For example :
Widget A = $100
Sales sticker says 40% off goods on this shelf (ie range of goods). Coupon says additional 10% off, so Widget A is now 50% off therefore only $50.
Example 2:
Widget B is normally $100, price sticker is replaced with a sales sticker saying Widget B is now only $60 (ie 40% off). Because the price marked is $60 the coupon reduces it by 10% (ie $6).
So it really depends on whether the coupon says additional discount on marked price, or whether the sale is "all red stickered items discounted by 40%" in which case the price marked is the original price, so the total discount would be 50%.
In most countries with consumer protection law, this type of misleading advertising would be illegal. Which is why it would normally say "not to be used in conjunction with any other offer"
fungobatbeater59 · 2 points · Posted at 19:18:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I worked in retail for 2 years and my store managers didn't know what I was talking about when I tried to show him/her this!
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:28:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Additional means you're adding percentages. This is escaping you. You have a lower level of function in the math department than you thought.
Vragspark · 2 points · Posted at 19:28:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Additional implies that the percentages are additive. 40% then 10% means they are multiplicative.
trey3rd · 2 points · Posted at 19:32:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's not a math issue though. If something tells me it's additional, I would expect it to be additive, not multiplicative.
IrishRepoMan · 3 points · Posted at 17:30:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Did the promotion make that clear? I can see people making that mistake if it just stated that they can use a coupon along with the sale. Not so much an inability to do basic math, than a misunderstanding of the promotion.
Thrumpledenoozitty · 1 points · Posted at 17:36:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well, I feel like I'm explaining this in all the comments, but this is after it's explained to them that the 10% comes off after all other discounts. They still believe the total percentage discount adds up to 50%. It doesn't, and sometimes that means we have to go over receipts with calculators to make them fucking understand how math works. Even then they don't.
IrishRepoMan · 1 points · Posted at 17:50:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And only 2 people understood? You must live in a shitty area. In all my life, I can't say I've ever seen anyone badmouth a cashier. Most people around here are kind, and willing to lend a hand. Even most of the assholes I've seen are just assholes to other customers, rather than staff. That's just drunk idiots in bars, though.
Thrumpledenoozitty · 1 points · Posted at 17:54:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I live in Toronto and have done customer service for many years in many cities all over North America. It's not a "shitty area" it's just people. That's how people are. Have you ever worked in the service industry? If not, it's not surprising you think it's a rare occurrence to deal with shitty customers on a regular basis, because you don't deal with hundreds of people a day in a service context. Just like how white people think there isn't any racism. You're just not exposed to it the way we are. Most of our customers will never see the other customers who berate us, insult us, argue with us, and so on, they're just not exposed to it during the 5 minutes they wait in line.
IrishRepoMan · 1 points · Posted at 18:11:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I live near Toronto. I've worked in plenty of customer service jobs. I know just how shitty people/customers can be. I've seen people attempt to argue. I've seen plenty get upset. I've never seen it devolve into yelling, swearing, or insults. Not saying it doesn't happen. Just that it I've never seen it go beyond a disgruntled annoyance. Also, the ratio of shitty people tends to increase when you're in a big city.
traffick · 2 points · Posted at 17:41:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That does not necessarily mean 10% off the reduced price as you worded it, as it is unclear whether the "additional 10% off" applies to the original price or the reduced price.
Source: years of working in bird law
Thrumpledenoozitty · 1 points · Posted at 17:47:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Okay, not as I worded it in this comment, but as the company words it on their discount code.
liam12345677 · 2 points · Posted at 17:41:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You're MULTIPLYING the prices. So 1.00 * 0.60 (40% off) makes 0.60.
0.60 * 0.90 = 0.54
Multiplying can go in any order, so that's why it doesn't matter which order you apply the coupons in.
Thrumpledenoozitty · 0 points · Posted at 17:45:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No, no it doesn't, that was never in question, however.
liam12345677 · 1 points · Posted at 17:57:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What are you talking about? Multiplication CAN go in any order, and those multiplications are correct.
Thrumpledenoozitty · 1 points · Posted at 18:03:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I mean it doesn't matter, as you said, I was agreeing with you. However we are not talking about the order of the multiplication, that was never the issue.
liam12345677 · 1 points · Posted at 18:35:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
OK, yeah I see how that comment isn't the issue. It was more just me trying to point out that the reason this works is because even if it's '30% off' it's not -30%, it's more like a multiplier, which is why -30% and -10% don't make -40%.
Thrumpledenoozitty · 1 points · Posted at 20:03:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, totally. I wish it were easy to explain to people in a way that makes them get it.
hniball · 2 points · Posted at 17:49:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
you really want to know why? I will tell you why.
― George Carlin
Thrumpledenoozitty · 1 points · Posted at 17:52:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Nah, I know. I work in retail. You wouldn't believe the stupidity I'm confronted with on the daily. The worst part is that stupidity seems to correlate with righteous indignation. The more outrageous the request or argument, the louder and more insistent they are about it. Holy christ. I hate my job.
Crimsai · 1 points · Posted at 18:03:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, but this seems like a shitty practice to trick people into thinking they're getting 50% off, so I can understand why people would be confused and annoyed.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:03:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Thrumpledenoozitty · 1 points · Posted at 18:06:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oh god I know. In another comment I related how a customer was getting 60% off an item that had been reduced 50% already. And she couldn't understand how that could be true. Then my co-worker joked with her that we should be giving her money.
alextound · 1 points · Posted at 18:12:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ehhh. . . Understand or just want more off . . .
ZarathustraOnAcid · 1 points · Posted at 18:25:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Cause the 10% off are presented by the advertisement as if they were the 50% you are talking about
freckle_juice_mama · 1 points · Posted at 18:36:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yep. Barnes & Noble confused the crap out of people. I told them "If it says 30% off and an additional 10% for members, either think of it as 35% off or do the math on 30% off, then 10% off the remainder."
The one I learned from my mom that I still fail at sometimes is when something is 30% off, you can multiply the price by 7 to get an idea of the new price.
Sploitspiller · 1 points · Posted at 18:42:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Most adults are just overgrown children. Age doesn't mean shit if you're not improving yourself as you get older.
kenriko · 1 points · Posted at 18:43:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Heh.. not when you find stores who can't math on slickdeals.
I just got a 5% off promo that stacked with a 10% off promo on something that was already 30% off. $150 item became $85.. too bad they did not make the mistake to stack all the promos from the base price.
eddietwang · 1 points · Posted at 18:44:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So if I bring in 2 50% off coupons can I get something for free?
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:45:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And some stores do it the other way. Additional 10% off is added to the orginal 30%
ITT idiots who are unknowingly idiots
cloth_mother · 1 points · Posted at 18:49:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I can understand mistaking it for meaning 50% off. Sounds just like little mistakes I always make in math.
But I don't see why people get angry over this. I'd just be like, "oh.. yeah." And then feel like the cashier thinks I'm stupid.
I_read_this_comment · 1 points · Posted at 18:52:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think a part of the issue is that it is not likely that a person with a maths, physics or engineering degree likes to shop for clothes.
Thrumpledenoozitty · 1 points · Posted at 20:02:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Haha, touche.
shadowninja1019 · 1 points · Posted at 18:57:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If only two people understood that then it might be the stores fault that no one understands
Thrumpledenoozitty · 1 points · Posted at 20:01:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Even the employees don't understand, and they are quite familiar with the way the discount is applied. They just don't understand why the total is different when you apply a 40% and THEN a 10%, from when you just apply a 50% from the get-go.
ythl · 1 points · Posted at 18:57:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Say I have two coupons: $5 off and 50% off. You save more money if you apply 50% off first, and then $5 off second.
Thrumpledenoozitty · 1 points · Posted at 20:00:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's absolutely not the same scenario.
ythl · 1 points · Posted at 20:10:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I know, but I've gotten into arguments with retail workers who try to apply the coupons out of order
Andreww4 · 1 points · Posted at 18:58:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'd fight you about it because this is too confusing tbh. I want the extra 10%!
hewasbornwavision · 1 points · Posted at 19:11:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Because 50% is so enticing
TopshelfPeanutButtah · 1 points · Posted at 19:21:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Definitely sounds like Gap Inc ;)
Keats852 · 1 points · Posted at 19:52:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sorry I disagree with you. If you have 2 coupons for X and Y percentage off price Z, it makes sense that you get the double discount. So if X is 25% off and Y is 15% off, you should get a total of 40% off the original price, since the coupons individually work on the full price as well. The only reason it doesn't work that way is because retailers would lose too much money if they applied common logic. That's why they made rules for their own benefit, when it comes to discount. The reason nobody understands it like you said, is because they have common sense. The two people that didn't complain were just happy with their discounts in general, too stupid or lazy to do the math, or too used to the system (sheep) to complain.
Here's a simple example of logic: Let's say you need $10,000 to buy a car. Your parents decide to give you half! That's 50%. Your partner decides to surprise you with 50% as well and says: "Your parents paid half? That's awesome, I'll pay 50% too!". Now with your logic you only need another $2500! But in reality, 50% + 50% = 100% paid. When people are talking about percentages paid, they always mention the percentage of the full original amount. So you would say that your partner paid 25%, not 50% of the remainder of 50%.
Personally I don't blame the retailers for how they want to apply discounts, but please don't make people feel stupid with "elementary school math". That makes me want to go buy my stuff somewhere else.
Thrumpledenoozitty · 1 points · Posted at 19:59:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
See, I totally get where you're coming from and I agree! That is the difference between expectation and reality. Yes it sucks but, it's not quite the situation I am talking about.
When the problem arises is when people don't understand, even after being explained that the 10% comes off AFTER all other discounts, that it still doesn't add up to 50%. They don't get why 10% after a discount and 10% from the original price is not the same amount, and that's the issue.
Keats852 · 1 points · Posted at 21:08:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well yea, if you follow the rules, the total discount just isn't 50%. If they don't get that, then they should go back to elementary school ;-)
MrXian · 1 points · Posted at 20:00:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Something cost 100 bucks. I get a coupon for 10% off. It is not unreasonable to say that it is worth 10 bucks. It is again not unreasonable for people to assume that that value remains constant.
Geta-Ve · 1 points · Posted at 20:04:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you've only met two people that get it, then there is a problem with the verbiage not the people.
cosmicsans · 1 points · Posted at 20:18:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In a semi-related tangent, I was looking at my ground black pepper shaker that I just bought the other day and it said "400% more" and then in really small text under that "than 1.5 oz".
It was a 6oz container.
Like, really? You really needed to put "400% more" in big bold letters just to try to act like you're giving someone more of something but really you're just doing math.
Thrumpledenoozitty · 1 points · Posted at 22:20:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's not even 400% more. That's just 400% of 1.5 oz. So you're only getting 300% "more". I hate everything. PEPPER.
Plantbitch · 1 points · Posted at 20:56:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I had to explain to a guy once that at age whatever his life insurance reduces by 10% of the original amount each year for x amount of years until it stopped. Just for an easy example that meant a $100,000.00 policy will be 90,000, then 80,000, then 70,000 etc. He thought it meant 90,000, then 81,000, then 72,900, and so on. He then went on to tell me I was bad at math. Bitch I took 2 semesters of calculus, percentages are not difficult for me. The policy was an odd amount so he was doing fine math (or as "fine at math" you have to be to find 10% of a number and subtracting that from itself), but not understanding a much easier concept.
Captain_Swing · 1 points · Posted at 21:21:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Think that's bad? I read an article a few years ago about how high oil prices were affecting sales of SUV's. One dealership they interviewed had tried to shift inventory by discounting stock by 50%. Despite a lot of advertising there was almost no impact on sales.
Then they tried buy-one-get-one-free. Queues round the block.
Thrumpledenoozitty · 1 points · Posted at 22:17:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Haha, we have something on promo for buy one, get one 50% off. I had a lady return two items she bought each at 40% off and repurchase them at the new promo (buy one get one 50% off). Because I wouldn't do a price adjust. Because I told her she got the better deal. But in her mind, 50% is better than 40% so...
chobo4 · 1 points · Posted at 21:59:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Why?
"When will I ever need to know how to [insert math here] once I graduate?"
Many ppl complain about learning math and give up once they're not forced to do homework daily anymore. These ppl don't connect the dots and see that math and logical thinking are present in our day-to-day lives.
RosemaryCrafting · 1 points · Posted at 22:54:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I didn't learn anything about any percentages until 8th grade.
GladeAnator · 0 points · Posted at 17:34:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That is definitely not something taught in elementary school, but yes, adults should understand it.
I work for a math teaching/tutoring business and that topic of discounts and taxes get done usually by middle school students or some high school students who are behind. Even then, the idea of a discount on a discount is actually the hardest question we give on that topic, and only once.
newdawn79 · 0 points · Posted at 17:36:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I had a friends years ago who worked for a clothing store that gave employees 50% off whatever they bought. She bought two items at exactly the same price and couldn't calculate how much she had to pay. She was 17 at the time and otherwise functional...
Thrumpledenoozitty · 2 points · Posted at 17:40:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
See, that seems to me like not a lack of intelligence but probably a lack of education. We don't teach students how to problem-solve. That kind of thing would be intuitive to most but not to everyone. I once took a Stanford course in mathematical thinking and teaches you how to break out of the patterns of thinking we're all taught in school wrt problem-solving.
newdawn79 · 0 points · Posted at 18:07:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, our maths education focused far too much on complicated stuff (trig, quadratic equations etc) and not enough on basic stuff like calculating taxes/tips/percentages that are actually useful irl.
roonling · 0 points · Posted at 17:44:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I used to work in retail. We had staff signs up about how with our 15% staff discount and the standard 25% off for INSERT PROMOTIONAL ITEM HERE we'd get 40% off
I always corrected the signs (36.25% as discount applied on the final price) and explained it to the manager that put the signs up. Still happened every time our discount went up. (We got 10% most of the year, 15% at Christmas Easter and summer school holidays)
Thrumpledenoozitty · 2 points · Posted at 17:46:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, we still have employees who think this as well, as our employee discount works similarly. We get a percentage off the promo price. People always subtract it from the full price then get mad when it doesn't work out as well as they'd hoped.
noreally811 · 0 points · Posted at 17:55:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If I buy 2 things at 40% off, I should get 80% off. If I buy 3 things, then you should pay me money.
Thrumpledenoozitty · 2 points · Posted at 17:56:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I can't argue with that logic at all. Take all my money!
Raknith · 0 points · Posted at 18:15:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This one is totally reasonable. People see "40% off" and "additional 10% off" and they put together that 40+10 is 50.
CatNigga · -1 points · Posted at 16:50:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's so concerning when an adult can't understand the differences between additive and multiplicative and where they're most commonly applied...
anomalous_cowherd · 2 points · Posted at 17:49:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm pretty good at maths and I've never seen the 40% then 10% usage here in the UK.
It's either additive (50%) or one coupon per item, or 10% off the marked price (which may be already discounted).
I've never seen the stacked coupons version here. Then again prices have to be shown after tax always, where in the US I get the idea people don't know exactly what things are going to cost until they been through the checkouts.
CatNigga · 1 points · Posted at 17:56:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Some places do either or in terms of discount percentage application but it's always best to assume that the percentage will be multiplicative.
The reason why it's not lumped is because there may be multiple discount sources that do not have the same origin. With this, the stores have to figure out how to tackle the discount where profit is concerned.
Ten_bucks_best_offer · 1 points · Posted at 19:28:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Simple example. A product in the store doesn't sell. The decision maker decides they just want it gone and gives a 40% discount on it. Later, through coupon, or promotion, this item is also eligible for an additional 10% off. The item being 40% off has already had the price changed and anything indicating 40% off is just showing that the item is no longer at the original price. The new price is already set and the new discount (the 10%) is now applied to that price.
I don't know whether people are dumb, act dumb, or think they are being slick, but this word is overlooked religiously.
anomalous_cowherd · 1 points · Posted at 20:11:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes, I agree with all that. It;s the idea of giving in both a 40% and a 10% coupon (when multiple coupons are allowed) and not getting 50% off. That's what would be weird here.
10% off prices that are already marked down 40% would be fine..
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:48:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's so specific that it's almost concerning that you find it concerning.
CatNigga · 0 points · Posted at 17:49:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's not specific as my concern doesn't apply and a specific situation. There are times when it does one well to be able to discern between the two. Times where only one or the other is necessary.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 17:56:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You said "additive/multiplicative... AND where they're most commonly applied".
CatNigga · 0 points · Posted at 17:58:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Semantics. Good point.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:10:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In this case, I suppose... but when it ends up costing the customer more money than he/she anticipated, semantics do matter.
CatNigga · 1 points · Posted at 18:11:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yep, hence my "good point" 👍🏽 Semantics matters
Ryengu · 13 points · Posted at 16:17:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Commutative multiplication
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:34:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Programming gives you a whole new perspective on that. Relying on Mul(x,y)==Mul(y,x) and switching the arguments comes off as "clever" coding that annoys people.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:39:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
oh my god
McPebbster · 34 points · Posted at 15:52:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I was sceptical first but if you see it as 0,9 x 0,1 = 0,1 x 0,9 it becomes very obvious
Edited for syntax error
empurrfekt · 25 points · Posted at 17:10:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
As an American, your equation hurt my brain.
SingleLensReflex · 11 points · Posted at 18:11:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
0.1*0.9=0.9*0.1
jean4007 · 8 points · Posted at 16:11:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Most people know about the multiplication rule, but they don't realize percentages are just a way to represent multiplication
A_Crazed_Hobo · 1 points · Posted at 19:56:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
it's more like division, isn't it? I mean they're both technically correct but still, I'd say 10 divided by 100 is more appealing than 10*0.01
jean4007 · 2 points · Posted at 21:13:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I would say it's more intuitive as multiplication since it directly translates, for example 25% is just 10*0.25 instead of 10/4
SkillBranch · 4 points · Posted at 16:40:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In high school math, we were always told to consider the term "of" in relation to percentages as just another way of saying "multiplied by."
sluggles · 4 points · Posted at 17:21:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think the confusion tends from a 10% increase followed by a 10% decrease doesn't end up at the original amount, even though you'll arrive at the same amount despite which is applied first.
100 x 1.1 x .9 = 110 x .9 = 99
100 x .9 x 1.1 = 90 x 1.1 = 99
scorpionma · 2 points · Posted at 17:22:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I love the number 9
Jqerty · 2 points · Posted at 17:38:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
0.1 * 0.9 = 0.9 * 0.1
curiousGambler · 2 points · Posted at 18:22:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It should be as simple as pointing out it's the same as .9*.1 and .1*.9, which we know to be equal because multiplication is commutative. We can skip the term "commutative" depending on the audience, and just say "the same both ways" and everyone knows two "normal numbers" (integers) are the same multiplied either way, just point out it's the same for decimals.
But no, it's not that simple.
Worse source: Was an assistant in the comp sci lab during college. I can't imagine how these people handled Turing machines later in their curriculum when they couldn't handle multiplication as freshman, but they probably didn't make it that far. God help us if they're writing any sort of critical software these days.
sidetablecharger · 2 points · Posted at 18:42:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I once visited a shop where they had a 75% off table. So I picked up an item with an original price of $20. It rang up at $10 (50% off). I explained that it was on the 75% off table, and had clearly been marked with a 75% off sticker. The manager told the cashier to give me another 25% off. The cashier then took the 25% off of the $10, so now the price was $7.50. I said, "No, it should be $5. It was originally $20 and is now 75% off, so that should be $5." The cashier and manager both argued with me since, you know, "the computer couldn't be wrong." I tried to explain why their number was wrong, and I even appealed to the one other person on line to help me explain. In the end, I got the item for $5, but it was clearly because they were agitated and wanted me to go away and not because they recognized their mistake.
fj333 · 2 points · Posted at 18:55:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Multiplication is commutative. More news at 11.
quine3 · 2 points · Posted at 19:31:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
/r/theydidthemath
bargu · 1 points · Posted at 17:30:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well, i had to stop and think about that a little bit.
fearguns · 1 points · Posted at 18:22:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
in word problems, 'of' = 'multiplied by'
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:22:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
McPebbster · 2 points · Posted at 19:05:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Incredible fun to bring up at parties if you want to make new friends for life. Duh!
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:41:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
QUEST: Learn the difference between 0.9*0.1 and 0.1*0.9
TwistedRichie · 1 points · Posted at 18:26:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
One of my favorite puzzles to try on people: "Which is larger, 23% of 47, or 47% of 23?"
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:29:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Did the math, this guy's for real!!!!
ScrithWire · 1 points · Posted at 18:33:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
(1/10)•(9/10) = (9/10)•(1/10)
puntifex · 1 points · Posted at 18:40:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Also, 25% off sale on top of a 25% off sale is not 50% off.
Micotu · 1 points · Posted at 18:44:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
or if your stocks go up 20% one day and then down 20% the next day, you are not back where you started, you are worse off
svengalus · 1 points · Posted at 19:04:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My math teacher taught us that "of" just means "multiplied by" and that's always served me well.
BitGladius · 1 points · Posted at 19:08:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Can you remind me how to do math with numbers? I can only do it in letters now.
delapso · 1 points · Posted at 19:27:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I can add two numbers in my head, without pencil and paper or calculator, and people think I'm a wizard. And I'm talking 75+26. Not complicated. My peer reviews make me sound like a TI.
Lcthulou1 · 1 points · Posted at 19:29:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Got into a fight once in college with a coworker. We had your typical minimum wage, variable hour job and never knew exactly what our pay would be. So, He had added up all the withholding in his paycheck and calculated it as 23%. Every pay he would do a quick Hrs X Wage, then Multiply by .23 and subtract from the total. I asked him why he just didn't multiply by .77 and be done quicker. He could not see that taking 23% off the top meant he was left with 77% take home.
ActualButt · 1 points · Posted at 19:30:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Got a couple of extra % symbols in there chief...
prodigy254 · 1 points · Posted at 19:33:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Once was enough, eh?
timypaul · 1 points · Posted at 19:35:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Once? What do you do now?
salaminokamel · 1 points · Posted at 19:40:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That was beautiful.
deadbird17 · 1 points · Posted at 19:41:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
However, if a number increases X%, and then decreases X% of the new number, it will not be back at it's original number (with a few exceptions.)
NvizoN · 1 points · Posted at 19:41:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I saw this on reddit a while back and it helps so much doing percentages. Like, I can't figure out 46% of 50 immediately, but I can tell you immediately how much 50% of 46 is.
AP246 · 1 points · Posted at 19:46:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is like 8 year old's maths though.
X times y is the same as y times x.
dyingpie1 · 1 points · Posted at 19:46:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
(0.1)(0.9) = (0.9)(0.1)
peach98542 · 1 points · Posted at 19:47:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You mean 10% of 90 and 90% of 10?
PM_ME_UR_WATCHES · 1 points · Posted at 20:07:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
mindblown.gif
PleaseRecharge · 1 points · Posted at 20:18:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well, 10% of 90% is 9%. 90% of 10% is 9%. The wording confused me until I put it to paper. Double Edit: explanation and word.
TheRealBailey_ · 1 points · Posted at 20:19:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
0.X x 0.Y = XY/100 0.Y x 0.X = YX/100
XY = YX
raindropmangoes · 1 points · Posted at 20:27:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
One time I travelled to the states and stopped at a store to buy a copy of Pokemon Black. I was talking to the woman at the counter about price differences between the US and Canada. She did not understand why I was multiplying the price of the game by 1.08 to calculate what I had to pay in total, after I explained the math 3 times.
Her logic: "But why do you multiply it by 1.08? Tax is only 8%, so multiply it by 0.08 and then add that to the listed price!"
After that she tried to convert the price from USD to the equivalent CAD by multiplying it by the rate you'd use to convert from CAD to USD.
I smiled, nodded, then left the store.
silver_tongued_devil · 1 points · Posted at 20:27:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How much do you cost as a tutor cause I'm going to have to take college algebra at some point and every comment under yours terrifies me.
CeaRhan · 1 points · Posted at 20:36:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yet it's as simple as 1+1=2
jajsiehenso · 1 points · Posted at 21:27:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not to be confused with 90% off and then an extra $10 off or $10 off and then 90% off. Those can vary the price of an item depending on the order the deals were made. This is more for coupons though
gmil3548 · 1 points · Posted at 23:21:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Or that if something is 50% off and then 20% off of that price that it isn't 70% off it's 60% off. I've seen a lot of stores make this mistake in advertising (might be intentional)
Mechasteel · 1 points · Posted at 23:55:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
aka multiplication is commutative
Anaract · 1 points · Posted at 02:38:54 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
A lot of people are shockingly bad at percentages and fractions. Like, they could easily do 10*0.75 in their head, but "three quarters of ten" or "25% off if of ten" just completely throws them.
I don't know at what point you just forget everything you learned in school, but I hope it never happens to me.
imfromca · 1 points · Posted at 17:44:28 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
this was fun
Twas_All_A_Dream · 1 points · Posted at 16:01:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Omg I just tested that out and you're right! Useful to know, thanks
therestlessone · 1 points · Posted at 18:01:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's just multiplication.
2x3 = 3x2
[deleted] · 7249 points · Posted at 14:30:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Being louder does not equal being right.
brilliantlyInsane · 3770 points · Posted at 16:15:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
FUCK YOU. OF COURSE I'M RIGHT.
karnim · 2008 points · Posted at 16:29:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Damn. You are convincing.
theWhyvern · 534 points · Posted at 17:26:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
His text is so big. I can't refute his logic.
SoftlySpokenPromises · 16 points · Posted at 18:40:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Some might call him brilliant, those who are jealous say insane
theWhyvern · 20 points · Posted at 18:41:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't believe you.
Your text is too small.
SoftlySpokenPromises · 13 points · Posted at 18:49:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I said...
SOME MIGHT CALL HIM BRILLIANT, THOSE WHO ARE JEALOUS SAY INSANE
Gripey · 16 points · Posted at 18:55:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Why didn't you say that in the first place?
NoNameToBeSeen · 4 points · Posted at 19:11:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Wow, that's not an promise and also not softly spoken, how dare you?
SoftlySpokenPromises · 1 points · Posted at 19:57:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I promise I'll softly speak some sweet nothings to ya later bb
theWhyvern · 1 points · Posted at 20:48:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Now I agree with you wholeheartedly!
ducks-everywhere · 6 points · Posted at 18:48:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Hates_escalators · 3 points · Posted at 19:40:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Big if true.
t4kedwn · 3 points · Posted at 19:44:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My logic is just so much... smaller compared to his...
Devreckas · 1 points · Posted at 20:06:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Reason will prevail!
lokigast · 1 points · Posted at 21:08:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So size DOES matter...
Zaps13 · 1 points · Posted at 19:55:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You know what they say about people with big text...
hackurb · 1 points · Posted at 20:41:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well, he is clearly over compensating for something .
Lord-Table · 20 points · Posted at 17:02:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
He's wrong tho
[deleted] · 16 points · Posted at 17:28:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Quiet you
Lord-Table · 17 points · Posted at 17:44:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Never
Lietenantdan · 5 points · Posted at 18:11:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
He does make an excellent point. I mean, look at how huge that font is. There's no way he's wrong.
GabrielForth · 2 points · Posted at 17:07:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
He makes a strong point.
Hawkeye1113 · 1 points · Posted at 18:22:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
...He is brilliantly insane.
hahasTooOften · 1 points · Posted at 18:45:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And brilliantly insane.
BeastaBubbles · 1 points · Posted at 19:50:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah idk what OP was saying but this guy has hutzpah
e28power · 6 points · Posted at 17:50:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Damn, I never thought of it that way.
USCplaya · 3 points · Posted at 17:58:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm with this guy, look how big and bold he said it. He's definitely right
DickyD43 · 3 points · Posted at 18:34:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sold.
DingGratz · 3 points · Posted at 19:00:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A bold argument.
Ardub23 · 3 points · Posted at 19:43:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
════╲══┃══╱════
※ ❁ ☞ I AGREE. ☜ ❁ ※
════╱══┃══╲════
FlowAffect · 2 points · Posted at 18:59:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Mother, is that you?
Evanescent_contrail · 2 points · Posted at 19:21:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Donald? Is that you?
Serpent9463 · 2 points · Posted at 19:32:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Username checks out.
KaleidoKitten · 2 points · Posted at 19:54:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Alright, Karkat, settle down.
SadGhoster87 · 2 points · Posted at 20:29:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
FUCKASS FUCKASS FUCKASS FUCKASS FUCKASS FUCKASS FUCKASS FUCKASS FUCKASS FUCKASS FUCKASS FUCKASS FUCKASS
KaleidoKitten · 2 points · Posted at 20:37:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Best comment reply I've ever gotten.
SadGhoster87 · 2 points · Posted at 21:35:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Thanks, I try.
brilliantlyInsane · 0 points · Posted at 23:08:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's not YOUR reply, you phony. I will not be impersonated.
KaleidoKitten · 1 points · Posted at 23:16:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Should have said 'reply to my comment reply' instead.
Stinger3368 · 2 points · Posted at 23:52:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Now that's a convincing font.
DylanTheVillian1 · 1 points · Posted at 17:21:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
FUCK YOU, MOTHERFUCKER! I'M RIGHTER THAN YOU!
brilliantlyInsane · 2 points · Posted at 19:05:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
NICE TRY, BUT YOU'RE STILL NOT AS LOUD AS I AM. I WIN.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:59:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
| \ | | / _ _ \
| | | . | | | |
| . ` .| | | |
| |\ |. |__| |
|| \|. ____/
SadGhoster87 · 3 points · Posted at 20:28:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
/r/therewasanattempt
HaterSalad · 1 points · Posted at 18:10:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
He's right, you know.
cuntsaurus · 1 points · Posted at 18:29:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This guy makes a great argument
Elopikseli · 1 points · Posted at 18:45:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Wow, this guy is right. Upvoted.
intersectionalgang · 1 points · Posted at 18:51:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
FUCK YOU AND FUCK YOUR OPINION, BECAUSE YOU'RE NOT ME!
SadGhoster87 · 1 points · Posted at 20:28:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Karkat Vantas?
rngsofsatrn · 1 points · Posted at 19:00:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Damn. This guy is fucking right
growlingbear · 1 points · Posted at 19:14:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You are as useless as the UEUE in Queue.
GeoffreyRobin · 1 points · Posted at 19:16:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Michelle bauchman is that you?????
mistere213 · 1 points · Posted at 19:18:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Found the guy who is right.
LILHOMIE1250 · 1 points · Posted at 19:24:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
NO, I AM!
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:26:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Nat 20.
imfromca · 1 points · Posted at 17:44:56 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
dumb quiet guyf commenting and shit like he knows
brilliantlyInsane · 1 points · Posted at 23:30:43 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Are you having a stroke?
giveuschannel83 · 2035 points · Posted at 15:56:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In a similar vein: A lot of people believing something doesn't make it right.
I get really sick of seeing news headlines based on some survey about what people think instead of actual facts. Like "50% of Americans believe Trump committed an obstruction of justice" or "40% of Americans don't believe in global warming". Whether or not Trump did that and whether or not the earth is warming up are objective facts. They will be true (or false) no matter how many people believe them.
(Thanks to people for providing better examples of what I was trying to say - the original example wasn't that great.)
ProjectKurtz · 2235 points · Posted at 16:38:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Nobody wants actual news, they want an echochamber that affirms they're right and everyone else is wrong and evil.
NSilverguy · 401 points · Posted at 17:26:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I want actual news; I'm not interested in what someone thinks I want to hear. This is part of the reason I only really trust non-profit news sources.
TadaceAce · 28 points · Posted at 17:52:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What are considered non profit news sources? You make a good point but actual journalism isn't cheap, its a lot of man hours and people gotta eat.
Its hard to find middle ground. Its often either armchair reporting with no integrity or for ratings pandering.
Unusualmann · 32 points · Posted at 18:03:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
NPR is pretty good.
edit: They do lean a bit left, but within reason.
[deleted] · 23 points · Posted at 18:34:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
[deleted] · 10 points · Posted at 19:36:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Agreed, as someone who leans left but hates the vocal left I get frustrated listening to NPR. Was listening to a segment on White Nationalism and then one on MS13. They played the White Nationalists as horrible people (they are) and the MS13 as victims of immigration laws (still horrible people). Both groups are shit people but they used MS13 to push a narrative.
SternestHemingway · 6 points · Posted at 20:00:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Hey have you heard about the transgender immigrant afghanistan vet who grew up in a dying coal town under adopted parents who were in internment camps during WWII?
She's got a new book about how hard it was to grow up as a transgender immigrant in a dying coal town with immigrant parents.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:39:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
NPR perfectly, although I do enjoy the channel!
wosh · 2 points · Posted at 20:31:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Facts tend to have a liberal bias
[deleted] · -34 points · Posted at 18:44:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
DeusXEqualsOne · 64 points · Posted at 18:46:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm pretty sure that that's
prettyreally biased itself.[deleted] · -18 points · Posted at 18:55:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
seems pretty accurate
[deleted] · -26 points · Posted at 19:04:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[removed]
LiterallyJames · 3 points · Posted at 19:21:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
We often throw stones assuming that the opposition is on the other side of the glass. It's only when the stone hits the wall that we realize those were mirrors.
breadfollowsme · 2 points · Posted at 19:42:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I honestly have no idea what you mean by this.
LiterallyJames · 1 points · Posted at 04:05:19 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
It means look at yourself before you throw stones, because chances are you're no better.
Dedod_2 · 1 points · Posted at 19:10:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Republicans are trying to avoid war. The left wants a war with Russia cuz that will absolutely go well.
breadfollowsme · 2 points · Posted at 19:20:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't think ANYONE wants a war with Russia. At least, no one sane wants a war with Russia. Who wants a war between two nuclear super powers?
DerpyDruid · 1 points · Posted at 19:31:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Hillary Clinton was going to start shooting down Russian jets when/if she became President soooo... her?
Xandabar · 4 points · Posted at 19:36:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
BUT HILLARY!
breadfollowsme · 4 points · Posted at 19:39:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Hillary Clinton had proposed a "No fly zone" in certain areas around Syria. It was one part of a significantly more complex foreign policy. Definitely not as straightforward as you presented it as. She absolutely did not want a war with Russia.
bananastanding · 19 points · Posted at 19:04:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Have you ever actually known anybody in the right?
happypotatoesoncrack · 1 points · Posted at 19:10:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, most right leaning individuals I know aren't racist at all, however they do align with the other criteria he established (although the race thing is a pretty big inaccuracy - not sure where all these large groups of intolerant people are in everyday life)
Metalhead242 · 32 points · Posted at 19:03:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Wow TIL being right wing makes you an automatic racist. Glad to see there is no bias here. Lol
monkeystoot · 5 points · Posted at 19:57:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Leaning right also makes you a warmonger apparently.
willsmish · 16 points · Posted at 19:07:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So ignorant. Why don't you talk to conservatives or right-leaning people and see what they have to say about things instead of just listening to randy news channel 12 and believing what they say about 30% of the country.
[deleted] · 10 points · Posted at 19:06:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
minuteman_d · 8 points · Posted at 19:23:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Wow, really? I wasn't happy that DJT got elected, but I swear that every time I turned on NPR for a month or so after the election, it was some pretty unhinged stuff about how we were all doomed or having a support group for people who thought their lives were over because of the election results.
spacedoutinspace · -4 points · Posted at 19:51:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
6 months in and we are already getting threat of nuclear war from that orange haired idiot...At this rate, we are all dead in 4 years.
minuteman_d · 2 points · Posted at 19:57:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No way nuclear war is happening with N.Korea. Even if they launched, it'd be shot down and we'd respond with conventional weapons.
driftingnarwal · 4 points · Posted at 20:01:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Do you mind if I borrow your crystal ball? I need to check the lotto numbers.
minuteman_d · 3 points · Posted at 20:11:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, it does suck. I'm hoping it gets shot down. Given N.Korea's proximity to S.Korea and Japan and China and others, I don't think the USA dropping a nuke on Pyongyang would really help neutralize the threat. They certainly wouldn't nuke the DMZ. No one wants to invade or occupy.
07-12-44-49-68 / 21 09-28-44-52-58 / 16
driftingnarwal · 2 points · Posted at 21:16:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oh I totally agree with you. I just like poking fun at people when they assert things as fact that are really opinions, even if they are well founded opinions.
spacedoutinspace · 2 points · Posted at 21:30:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There is no gaurntee that it will be shot down, and I am not worried about NK launching nukes, I am worried Trump will be the one to launch nukes....
Remember in the campaign he said why are we not using nukes or something to that effect. I have a feeling he is just itching to use them
Astronopolis · 2 points · Posted at 20:14:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It leans left so hard, I don't love trump or anything, but the way everybody is so over the top angry about him is tiresome to the point of creating a counter culture
double-dog-doctor · 2 points · Posted at 21:29:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
PBS, too.
[deleted] · 17 points · Posted at 18:31:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
jayriemenschneider · 0 points · Posted at 15:59:40 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Organizations like PBS and NPR also rely on donations to fund their operation, so they certainly cater their programming (and political slant) to appeal to those who might donate. I prefer them to the CNNs and Fox News's of the world, but they definitely target their journalism to left-leaning viewers/listeners out of self-interest.
TheGreatPilgor · 16 points · Posted at 18:07:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't watch the news at all anymore. Instead, if I'm curious of something I hear about i research it instead. More likely to find the real facts that way rather than just watching some guy on TV spout other people's opinions at you.
[deleted] · 13 points · Posted at 18:34:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[removed]
turtlepuberty · 2 points · Posted at 20:26:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Most people think the news is a right like free speech or bearing arms. it's not. They couldnt give a flying fuck about a responsibility to inform the public or patriotism or ethics. Whatever the cheapest content they can put on air that will attract enough viewers to sell add space is what we get.
if there is a popular movement that happens to be racist, or oppressive to any sex or class or lifestyle... If a billion people chose puppy-hunting as a hobby and they happened to watch Fox News, well, guess what would happen.
NSilverguy · 2 points · Posted at 22:42:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, I've come to the point where I'm getting news from multiple independent sources, and then filtering out what seems to be opinion, as opposed to reported fact.
Jewsafrewski · 6 points · Posted at 18:36:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I find that local news, like Krem2 for my area, tend to be much more factual and less opinion based. Also I may be completely wrong on this but I feel like BBC is more reliable for news in the US than actual US news sources since what I read from them tends to stay more moderate and focused on the facts while fox or CNN or MSNBC will skew something to the left or right
SternestHemingway · 0 points · Posted at 20:05:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The BBC is great at reporting truthfully on what they want you to hear. But they are literally state run media and they aren't going to report things that harm the interests of the UK.
NSilverguy · 1 points · Posted at 22:37:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I agree, I don't trust the BBC a whole lot more than CNN, which I consider to be schlock in disguise.
To clarify, I mean more BBC television. I listen to BBC news headlines, which are quick reports on what's happening in the world. I typically trust this more than the opinion reports you find with 24 hour news networks.
MatiasUK · 8 points · Posted at 17:37:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's why my go to is the financial times.
TheUnclescar · 3 points · Posted at 19:05:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's not what they think you want to hear, it's what they want you to hear and think.
NortonFord · 2 points · Posted at 19:33:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Non-profit just means someone else is paying for it.
OmgKidGetAJob · 1 points · Posted at 20:26:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A lot of the time, yes that is too true.
DavidFoodie · 1 points · Posted at 02:42:30 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
welcome to the fantastic world of National Public Radio!
asek13 · 1 points · Posted at 18:05:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well most people don't agree with you. So you're wrong
Siphyre · 1 points · Posted at 19:09:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Most everyone says that but most of those don't believe that.
jimethn · -1 points · Posted at 18:45:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But actual news is so boring. I read news for the entertainment value. Being "informed" about events has little to no value in my daily life.
NSilverguy · 1 points · Posted at 22:35:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There really should be a defined distinction between actual news and what I call "action news". There's nothing wrong with wanting to be entertained, but you shouldn't be able to use that as a reference point when debating someone who is actually informed.
[deleted] · 23 points · Posted at 17:35:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
See: /r/politics
Forgotusernameshit55 · 14 points · Posted at 17:58:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Such as r/politics?
meltedlaundry · 7 points · Posted at 17:32:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
While the internet has certainly done a lot of good, it has also provided affirmation for just about anything.
charliedarwin96 · 3 points · Posted at 19:25:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's almost like there is a violent minority on both sides that would love a good ol' fashioned civil war.
Newbert101 · 4 points · Posted at 18:00:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Then Reddit is the place to be.
Jaredismyname · 2 points · Posted at 17:50:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Which makes it really frustrating for those of us that want the facts.
muddyrose · 2 points · Posted at 20:32:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just got down voted to hell and back for expressing moderate views in a left leaning echo chamber
Fuck me for not liking racism in any form, I guess
ProjectKurtz · 1 points · Posted at 20:40:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
To many in the left, acknowledging that racism against whites is a thing is bad because blaming everything on white people is their bread and butter.
Johnpecan · 1 points · Posted at 17:46:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This guy gets it.
filled_with_bees · 1 points · Posted at 18:08:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
relevant nerfnow
SirBackspace · 1 points · Posted at 18:08:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I believe that since news stations become echochambers, people take implications from statistcis. Say the report on minority groups in the UK earning less than the average white citizen. Many would jump to the conclusion that the report is implying that minorities are being discriminated against, while nothing of the sort is being said.
nzalog · 1 points · Posted at 18:14:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Let's check what twitter says about this.
Humdngr · 1 points · Posted at 18:21:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Modern media in a nutshell.
Alamander81 · 1 points · Posted at 18:23:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Social media and targeted advertising has allowed us to live in our own bubble and not be subject to anything we don't already agree with.
SidebarBar · 1 points · Posted at 18:26:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Everyone in this chain is echoing the same opinion though. News is anything that happens. Different things are news to different people. Even celebrity gossip is still news when half the world cares. You don't have to like it or agree with other people wanting to hear it. You aren't the only person who matters.
ProjectKurtz · 4 points · Posted at 18:37:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Everything is "news" but not everything is "important news"
"let's take a look at what twitter says about this" isn't important. It's news, and maybe somebody wants to hear it, but it shouldn't be important enough to take up a slot on the nightly news. If someone wants to see what Twitter has to say, they can go to Twitter.
I don't advocate for silencing these things, just not parading useless shit around just because it affirms your narrative.
The_Third_Three · 1 points · Posted at 18:46:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
90% don't get that
NicoleIsMyUncle · 1 points · Posted at 19:19:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The thing to remember is that we are included in the they
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:27:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yup, which is why reddit is the way it is.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:27:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Good thing we, the people of reddit, know better.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:34:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
See documentary: Hypernormalisation. It's all part of the plan.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:36:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Queue: CNN
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:38:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Reddit.com
cosmicexplosion22 · 1 points · Posted at 19:49:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Reddit politics?
GDP1195 · 1 points · Posted at 19:52:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
aka reddit?
null_work · 1 points · Posted at 20:11:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Opinions on why people think Trump isn't fit for President isn't news, though.
ProjectKurtz · 1 points · Posted at 20:35:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
technically, anything can be news. It's just not noteworthy news.
USCplaya · 1 points · Posted at 18:00:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yup. I would love for a billionaire to create a real news channel where all they do is report actual news, no worry about sponsors or ratings or spin. Their anchor(s) would simply relay the most important news factually without their or anybody else's opinions on the story.
BE20Driver · 0 points · Posted at 18:34:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I believe that opinion is actually an important facet of journalism. As long as that opinion doesn't preclude or bias the reporting of the facts.
muddyrose · 2 points · Posted at 20:36:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's new age journalism
Reporting on the news used to require anchors or journalists to specifically keep their opinions out of it.
That's why people in those industries are expected to report on horrific and disturbing events with no emotion.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:28:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Exactly
Dedod_2 · 1 points · Posted at 19:07:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Reddit is becoming self aware
ProjectKurtz · 4 points · Posted at 19:17:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I wish. Everyone just assumes this is talking about the other echo chambers they're not a part of.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 18:59:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Holy shit! Fox News!
TheManWhoPanders · 0 points · Posted at 19:25:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is going to get me another 100 or so downvotes, but I feel I need to say it.
This is mostly a Leftist thing. Most conservatives think liberals are wrong about their beliefs. Liberals believe conservatives are evil. It's not about left vs. right thinking so much as it is moral supremacy vs. accuracy with reality.
ProjectKurtz · 2 points · Posted at 20:03:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You can't say that on Reddit! It goes against the echo chamber!
Tactically_Fat · 0 points · Posted at 18:57:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Welcome to Reddit!
Zefiro · -1 points · Posted at 18:26:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How about 90% of people don't seem to want to know that using words like nobody, everybody are hyperbole.
ProjectKurtz · 3 points · Posted at 18:34:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Hyperbole can be used to make a point, "nobody" in this context isn't meant to mean absolutely nobody, and most people seem to understand that.
[deleted] · 394 points · Posted at 16:49:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
me literally every fucking day seeing the top posts of /r/worldnews and /r/news
YeremyV · 19 points · Posted at 18:32:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When literally every headline is "Breaking News".
cough cough The Guardian cough
_I_Am_Chaos_ · 11 points · Posted at 17:50:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Current front page is a prisoner who has spent too long in jail. Wow
GestaltJungle · 17 points · Posted at 18:31:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Its actually a clickbaity headline: his original sentence was increased in jail thanks to him setting fire to stuff, and now he can only be released if he has been deemed safe to be released. This has not happened so far.
Sad story (mental health and all) but the headline for the post was designed to drag in karma. Perhaps "prisoner still in jail 12 years later has he's still a danger to the public" is too truthful for /r/worldnews
[deleted] · 4 points · Posted at 17:50:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
yeah. sad story, but not news.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 18:29:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But it is a way for a news outlet to address a real issue with a flashy headline to appease the masses. The story in question causes/promotes discussion of problems in the British justice system.
pigi5 · 2 points · Posted at 18:52:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not only that, it's internal British news, so why is it in /r/worldnews at all?
The_Follower1 · 5 points · Posted at 19:18:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
worldnews is more accurately not-american-news. Look at their description.
pigi5 · 2 points · Posted at 19:20:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Seems you're right. I never knew that.
DuhTrutho · 3 points · Posted at 19:47:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Don't worry, stick around long enough and you'll see actual US internal news posted to /r/worldnews by maxwellhill, one of the moderators.
The consistency of "not-american-news" isn't that great at times.
Queen_Jezza · 1 points · Posted at 21:10:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I got banned from /r/worldnews a couple of days ago for saying something like "I wonder if he was a muslim".
Unsubscribed and my redditing experience is legitimately so much more pleasant. Leave that dump and never look back.
GestaltJungle · 0 points · Posted at 18:31:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Its actually a clickbaity headline: his original sentence was increased in jail thanks to him setting fire to stuff, and now he can only be released if he has been deemed safe to be released. This has not happened so far.
Sad story (mental health and all) but the headline for the post was designed to drag in karma. Perhaps "prisoner still in jail 12 years later has he's still a danger to the public" is too truthful for /r/worldnews
[deleted] · 35 points · Posted at 17:42:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
reddit is an anti-American anti-Trump propaganda site and there are no positive stories about the president on reddit. People just want to hate and America is tearing each other apart. [gets popcorn] It's so much fun to watch from up here in Canada. We just laugh at all y'all all day long. Do you really all hate each other that much?
[deleted] · 21 points · Posted at 17:43:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
im also canadian and it's just annoying. i miss being able to go on reddit without politics being involved everywhere
DoneLikeASir · 8 points · Posted at 17:56:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
r/all filter has worked wonders for me so far.
ImGeronimo · 13 points · Posted at 17:58:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Filters are a god-sent, but at a certain point filtering something everytime i go on /r/all gets pretty annoying, there is sooooo much political bullshit on reddit right now it's actually unbelievable.
DoneLikeASir · 9 points · Posted at 18:05:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Imagine if reddit had a sort of "political" setting, sort of like the NSFW tag?
That way, you could filter out all politicial posts/subs with the click of a button.
Or a plugin like RES that did that for you.
Probably wouldn't happen though, reddit was made with the purpose of sharing news anyway IIRC.
llamaAPI · 3 points · Posted at 19:39:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
On mobile I believe certain clients can filter specific words. That's even better than filtering subs for me. Many subs aren't 100% political but still are to some degree, and I'm not interested in those particular posts.
[deleted] · -13 points · Posted at 18:02:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[removed]
DuceGiharm · -8 points · Posted at 18:19:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"hahah these morons are scared their country is plunging itself into disaster, what a bunch of fucking tools haha" - dumb canadian man
Bald_Sasquach · -10 points · Posted at 18:29:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"That whole Watergate thing was no biggie, let's be mad that version 2.0 is distracting me from my memes!"
AdamsDJ · 4 points · Posted at 17:44:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
make use of the downvote button
[deleted] · 26 points · Posted at 17:45:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
i do, but when all these posts are 85% upvoted with over 10k upvotes, that doesn't do much
AdamsDJ · 2 points · Posted at 21:06:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But if we work together, we can double our power!!!
Queen_Jezza · 1 points · Posted at 21:19:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yep. Can't put up much of a fight against the circlejerkers (and astroturfers...)
DontBeSpooked-Frank · 1 points · Posted at 18:41:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I found the best way of dealing with (general) news is just to structurally ignore it. I agree with CGPGrey on this one that it's good entertainment, if you're into that, but it's not quality "information about the world".
MakingItWorthit · 1 points · Posted at 18:49:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You should probably unsub form those 2 subreddits.
Ninja_Arena · 1 points · Posted at 19:51:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yup. I unsubbed from some news and politics threads, clearly stating that reason and got some okthxbye responses
puggatron · 1 points · Posted at 17:34:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But look what this walrus did!
[deleted] · 5 points · Posted at 17:35:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
world leader disagrees with trump on policy
Ironyandsatire · 1 points · Posted at 18:23:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Politics every second.
GestaltJungle · -5 points · Posted at 18:32:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Fun fact. Despite major news sources all over the planet covering the virginia alt right march, and the man driving his car into a protestor, /r/worldnews had nothing on it. I posted about it 3 times and it kept getting deleted.
EDIT well it seems that i've awoken Bannon's downvote brigade. People (or bots?) are downvoting my testimony of what happened without even attempting to argue against it. This is why a fucking cunt like Trump got in folks.
pigi5 · 9 points · Posted at 18:53:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Because it's internal US news and /r/worldnews is for international news
pigsandpiglets · 1 points · Posted at 20:59:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's because America is not a part of the world. /s
GestaltJungle · -2 points · Posted at 19:15:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yet there are plenty of other US centric articles on there right now. One of the top ones is about Tillerson and Mattis. But apparently the only US ones to get absolutely deleted are those criticising the far right.
pigi5 · 8 points · Posted at 19:21:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Wut, if anything it's the opposite. They wait to delete most internal US news posts criticizing Trump and anyone on the right until they have been on the front page for a while.
GestaltJungle · -4 points · Posted at 19:35:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Funny. The advantage of being on a rest day is i've been Ive been on it all day and havent seen a single anti trump post last more than 30 minutes. Yet when I tried to add my own posts about the events they kept getting deleted within minutes, and without the usual notification. Just gone.
4448144484 · 0 points · Posted at 20:21:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Read the sidebar on worldnews. You were breaking one of the subs rules. You weren't being unfairly muted.
NYCheesecakes · 69 points · Posted at 16:41:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well, that's objective information. Whether or not Trump is fit to be president is debatable, and an article arguing one way or another would be like an editorial. You may think that it's not newsworthy, but the fact that 60% of Americans believe Trump to be unfit as president is a fact (assuming it's properly backed up by evidence). An article reporting that fact can also go into detail about the reasons people feel that way.
Rev_Jim_lgnatowski · 16 points · Posted at 17:37:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yup. The opinion itself may or may not be important, but the consensus is.
Smithsonian45 · 2 points · Posted at 18:56:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Man I can still hear tywin's voice in my head reading that. He played the role perfectly
FaxCelestis · 9 points · Posted at 17:43:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I see what you're saying but I want to clarify: 60% of validated polled people, not 60% of Americans. Data extrapolation in political polls infuriates me. Yes, yes, statistically you technically can do that kind of extrapolation but you still need to scatter your selection group, and most of the time they're only polling the people who are walking by on the street.
DuceGiharm · 7 points · Posted at 18:21:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
usually these polls are randomized phone calls. They can be off, and they have the issue of polling the type of people who answer polls, but this data gathering has been refined for decades, it's pretty accurate. I swear the whole Trump debacle has people not trusting polls, but the polls were right!! It's people who can't read polls who messed up.
giveuschannel83 · 1 points · Posted at 19:26:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I see your point, and actually some people have commented with a better example of what I was thinking of - headlines like "60% of Americans think Trump committed obstruction of justice". That too is a fact, but the much, much more important fact would be whether or not he actually did commit an obstruction of justice.
wolfgirlnaya · -5 points · Posted at 18:20:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It'd be objective information if it was done in a scientific way. I'm guessing those numbers are from online polls or something, which is going to skew the numbers, especially since those kind of polls would be voluntary. That covers one subset of a certain demographic of the population, but says nothing about the rest of the country.
Conveniently, there's never an explanation of who they surveyed to get that percentage. For all we know, they stopped at a local Walmart and asked 100 people.
E: Okay, they are scientific, they're just really biased. I know that I've never received a request to do a poll like these. Nor has anyone that I know of. How are we to assume that the sample they gather represents the general population with enough accuracy that we can extrapolate their results to the whole of the country? Polls like these have inherent flaws that pull the results in different directions, and the only way to ensure that it's accurate is to survey most of the country and compare. I don't trust shiny percentages reported in the news.
Just, calm yer tits, y'all. I don't word good.
[deleted] · 5 points · Posted at 19:08:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You could actually learn about statistics, you know. If you were actually curious.
2074red2074 · 2 points · Posted at 18:25:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Usually Gallop polls, which are incredibly fair considering the large and varied population they're gathering data on. Really the only big problem is the inherent bias of only surveying people who have the time to answer surveys. And I'm pretty sure they factor in the issue of the elderly and unemployed being more likely to do so.
Tsalnor · 1 points · Posted at 18:29:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You do realize these are actual polls conducted with scientific methodologies, right? You can look at how they got their data yourself if you wanted to, instead of just assuming that it's some random unscientific online poll.
E: Of course it's entirely possible you don't know anyone who's been polled. They don't have resources to poll a million people. A sample of a few thousand, if chosen randomly, is good enough to be representative of the entire population, no matter how big. Therefore, it's possible to have a perfectly unbiased sample including not a single person you have ever met ever before in your life. In fact, it's very likely. As for these biases you claim exist... There are statisticians spending their lives figuring out how biases can be reduced or eliminated. What biases do you propose exist that pollsters do not already take into consideration?
Needs_More_Gravitas · 20 points · Posted at 17:05:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Probably not the best example. Public opinion can be very important regarding elected officials so in this case seeing a large number of people disapproving is important. That info may affect how people vote in the future or how politicians react to statements made by the president.
Knowing how many people believe in something can be useful.
[deleted] · 17 points · Posted at 17:38:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In the case of politics, the number of people who believe Trump is good or bad is important because it's a democracy and whether people support him or not is relevant to whether he should be President. In other matters tho, like global warming or whatever, the point stands.
MrSplendiferous · 4 points · Posted at 18:29:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Like 99% of scientists believing in climate change?
drysart · 6 points · Posted at 18:29:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Because political power directly derives from public support. Trump's poll numbers being in the toilet means he doesn't have the political capital to accomplish anything; and that is newsworthy in political circles.
Hautamaki · 3 points · Posted at 18:13:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In a democracy, the amount of support a leader has is very relevant. One can argue about how often we need to get these updates--three times a day is definitely excessive--but that aside it is relevant how much support politicians have.
nickburgess · 3 points · Posted at 18:17:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It annoys me to no end when people say "I refuse to believe _______"
What you believe doesn't matter.
Here is a relatively innocent example.
When Disney bought Star Wars they ditched the extended canon found in the books and the comics published by dark horse. Where I used to work a co-worker said "I refuse to believe the old books aren't canon" and would get mad when the movies don't take the continuity of those books into account. I told him that "what you believe doesn't matter. They told you what they're gonna do and they own the property."
DavidsGoliath · 3 points · Posted at 18:25:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Similarly. My pharmacist and I had a conversation recently that was about how little anyone tries in actual arguments or conversations. In our experience, many people just make statements and do nothing to back it up. It's relatively confounding that the entirety of civil discourse has boiled down to, " I don't like peanut butter and jelly sandwiches." "Why?" "IT'S JUST MY OPINION, OPINIONS ARE AS VALID AS YOURS."
That's great, don't like peanut butter and jelly sandwiches, doesn't change my day, I just wanted to know why. It's concerning due to the fact that the entirety of the world and technology in it was developed on the backs of questions. But no one feels the need to explain themselves. They lock themselves and their egos into a reverberating room of "that's my opinion" and it's gotten much worse the past few years, from the president saying what he said wasn't his own words and everyone just letting it go, to people who sincerely hold the opinion that the earth is flat and fall back on it being the opinion; and that's supposed to be as valid as a tested fact.
News articles and discussions have ceased to be about who thinks that way and why, and more about who thinks that way and what other people think about how the first person thinks.
tuur29 · 3 points · Posted at 18:39:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You might've picked a bad example there. As being fit to be president also entails representing a majority (or at least largest majority) of a people. There's more to being president, but that's a critical part (in theory anyways).
FaaacePalm · 2 points · Posted at 18:09:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There are some videos and probably some studies too about how a lot of people will agree with the wrong choice if the rest of the group agrees the wrong choice is right. Usually they'll agree with the group by the 2nd or 3rd time, then continue to agree. I think they said it's a survival thing. Psychologically we want to be accepted by the group to better our chances of survival.
HughJaynusIII · 2 points · Posted at 18:34:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
read this quote here last week:
“The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum....”
― Noam Chomsky, The Common Good
Understeps · 3 points · Posted at 17:30:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It matters because it's a democracy. It's not the best example.
Masylv · 3 points · Posted at 17:42:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's important because the approval rating affects whether he'll be impeached and things like that. Since politics is basically a popularity contest, approval rating is a useful statistic.
TomSwirly · 3 points · Posted at 18:18:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"Making arguments" is not "news" - it's considered opinion and should be on the editorial page.
More, you seem to miss that most countries at least pretend to be democracies (yes, technically the US is a republic, you know what I mean), and therefore are actually at least pretending to be responsive to what the populace wants.
If a country is really a representative democracy of some type or other, what the citizens think about public affairs is of key importance, which makes it important news.
thatnameagain · 4 points · Posted at 18:21:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not the best example there, because obviously in a democracy people's thoughts effect their votes.
That would be an editorial piece. Reporting the results of a poll is news reporting. Big difference.
NFLinPDX · 2 points · Posted at 17:39:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think your example is news because it is a staggering number for the individual elected to lead/represent the whole country.
There's a gap between disapproving of the president and completely thinking they are unfit for the position. Like a "how did we get here?" kind of thing.
PaulTheMerc · 2 points · Posted at 18:06:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
wouldn't the fact that he is representing the people, and they feel he isn't doing the job well, be the reason? They can all have different reasoning, but at the end of the day, the president is representing them internationally and making decisions that effect all of them.
OverlordQuasar · 2 points · Posted at 18:07:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's news because people believing that puts pressure on congress to begin impeachment, which they will only do when they can no longer afford not to, from a political standpoint.
steaknsteak · 2 points · Posted at 18:07:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It still important news because public opinion of the president has implications for the next set of elections. Managing and responding to public sentiment is an important part of politics, so I think it constitutes real news.
prodigy254 · 2 points · Posted at 18:19:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think it is certainly important to understand the public perception of the President in a country that advertises itself as being the pinnacle of democracy.
frogandbanjo · 3 points · Posted at 16:52:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, we do labor under the mistaken impression in this country that what the plebs think actually matters. If we wanted to field a more significant study, it'd be "this percentage of rich and powerful people think Donald Trump is unfit to be president."
Then again, that too would be virtually meaningless without the followup question of whether or not they care enough to actually exercise their power.
2074red2074 · 1 points · Posted at 18:26:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Do politicians count as rich and powerful? Because at this point it's more than half.
el_monstruo · 2 points · Posted at 17:19:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ugh, this one so much especially after this last election. I can't remember who said it but somebody at the Republican convention said if they believe Obama is Muslim doesn't mean they are wrong, it is something that they and others just believe. Oh boy...
rebel_wo_a_clause · 2 points · Posted at 17:23:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's the idea of feelings over fact. I remember a few years ago Karl Rove talking with a reporter and saying American's feel a certain way. The reporter came back with basically "that's incorrect and here's the facts and the evidence" and he just replied with "but that's not how people feel and you can't tell me that my feelings are wrong"....honestly, this has become alot of the Republicans' platform. Feelings over fact. It's easy for Trump to say "many people say" to back up his claims bc it's nearly impossible to say, no one's said that ever. Bad direction for the country and the world imo, but it's difficult to argue against someone who values how they feel over how things are in reality.
amazingwolfboy · 1 points · Posted at 18:26:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Also, in a similar, similar vein, just cause i disagree with you, doesnt mean I'm AGAINST you.
Tsalnor · 1 points · Posted at 18:27:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Presidential approval ratings affect political agendas and elections. It determines how much political capital the president still has. They're not headlines because they want to try and prove that Trump is stupid or something dumb like that, they are just putting out actual polls that indicate Trump is losing popularity.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:29:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Because they gauge public opinion, other people like to know what's going on in the rest of the country and what people are thinking. It's interesting. It's the same reason you're here on Reddit reading strangers posting about stuff.
5cooty_Puff_Senior · 1 points · Posted at 18:32:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ugh, news organizations dealing in opinions to try to stay relevant.
The Oregonian sometimes makes posts on Facebook that end in "What do you think?" in lieu of a researched, well-thought-out story. It makes me want to scream every fucking time.
Revverb · 1 points · Posted at 19:16:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Tell that to the boyz! WAAAGGGHHHHHHHHH!
markatl84 · 1 points · Posted at 19:23:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
To be fair, an extremely high percentage of the population thinking the president is unfit for the job is in itself news. But you're right, there is an issue with what you're talking about. For example, giving equal time to both scientists and climate change deniers, as if there is actually a debate among experts in the field. It doesn't matter if 40% of Americans (or whatever) don't believe in climate change, that doesn't make both sides equally legitimate. Conspiracy theories and things that are provably incorrect (e.g. anti-vaxxer stuff) should not be given airtime, even if large numbers of people believe that shit.
Neutrino_gambit · 1 points · Posted at 19:26:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You picked one of the few examples where that doesnt work. In a democracy the views of the majority do matter
ParamoreFanClub · 1 points · Posted at 19:34:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
20% of adults of something crazy think chocolate milk comes from brown cows
dblmjr_loser · 1 points · Posted at 19:48:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There is a growing and visible movement against the concept of objective truth. Be very protective of objective truth.
fishbiscuit13 · 1 points · Posted at 19:52:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
To be fair, that specific statistic has implications on his party, which affects the midterm races.
pfun4125 · 1 points · Posted at 19:54:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Something I love telling people - " just because it's common or normal doesn't make it right." It's common to live your entire life in debt , doesn't make it right. It's common for samples to camp out in the passing lane, doesn't make it right.
Se7enLC · 1 points · Posted at 19:56:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When few agree with you: "You know, being popular isn't the same as being right!"
When most people agree with you: "See? Everyone agrees with me, so I must be right!"
peetar · 1 points · Posted at 18:10:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My "favorite" statistics are about how "X% of people surveyed think Donald Trump should be impeached. Like, who cares? That's not how impeachment works, it's not put to a popular vote
pushingrobot · 2 points · Posted at 18:52:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But it is, indirectly; the people vote for representatives and the representatives vote on impeachment.
A congressman who says "who cares?" about the will of his constituents won't last very long.
peetar · 0 points · Posted at 19:45:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But impeachment requires charges as a response to a particular offense. A congressman cannot impeach the president just because his constituents don't like him.
Being pro-impeachment is like being pro-jail for Justin Beiber.
illadvisedinertia · 1 points · Posted at 17:40:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Vox's Strikethrough series with Carlos Maza covers this and why cable news works for ratings and drama rather than substantive news, information, and unbiased reporting.
petit_cochon · 1 points · Posted at 18:43:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Newsworthiness is determined by many factors, and factors are not the same as facts. Something may be newsworthy because it affects many people, because it reflects a current topic or controversy, because it is a change from the previous norm, because it concerns people considered important...Presidential approval ratings are, traditionally, news. They're polled and reported especially in light of important events. That Trump's approval ratings are so low so early in his presidency, and that they continue to fall rapidly, is absolutely newsworthy.
People, in their zeal to blame the media for everything, forget that there are standards that good journalists abide by. Some media outlets do a better job of following those standards than others do, especially now that the news cycle is 24/7 and there are so many ways to communicate. Still, I've noticed many people tend to disparage news they consider unimportant, but they don't understand that the very notion of what is important is subjective - to both an individual and to a journalist. The best journalists can do is try to follow a consistent standard of newsworthiness.
MisfortunateFox · 1 points · Posted at 18:56:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Except asking voters how they feel about an elected official is relevant. It does matter what percentage of the population thinks he's unfit.
The problem is when the survey respondents have no bearing on the thing being discussed. "60% of voters think Trump committed obstruction of justice", unless those surveyed are legal scholars or congressional members this is entirely irrelevant.
giveuschannel83 · 2 points · Posted at 19:36:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, this is a much better example and more like what I was trying to think of. I edited my post to include it...thanks!
Jfreak7 · -1 points · Posted at 17:54:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ask a group of random people WHY they believe he is unfit and you won't get very compelling answers. I bet the most common answer is, "it's just obvious and so many people believe it (while pointing you to the study)".
This isn't about your specific example either, many different topics have have the same echo chamber of beliefs.
MadKingBryce · 0 points · Posted at 17:21:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
OOOOOOH WEEE THIS IS IT! THIS IS WHAT I LIKE TO SEE
NutDraw · 0 points · Posted at 17:22:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"If a million people do a stupid thing, it is still a stupid thing." Opus the Penguin
MjrK · 0 points · Posted at 17:56:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I agree with you. But also have to keep in mind that our political system is a popularity contest.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 18:09:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'd say it's news because it lets people know they're not the only ones with those thoughts and, actually, a lot of people have those thoughts. So don't give up, something may yet be able to be done about the problem.
brimds · 0 points · Posted at 18:34:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Are you unable to see the value in measuring and reporting public perceptions?
Mad_McKewl · -4 points · Posted at 16:59:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Actual news and facts are overrated, please leave the internet if you don't like it.
100PercentRudos · -2 points · Posted at 18:28:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Plus, they don't even give you the source of that 60%. How many people did they poll? And from where? That's the frustrating part. So if they went to Chicago and asked 10 people, and six said he was unfit, that's 60%. How is that a fair representation of the country as a whole?
Tsalnor · 2 points · Posted at 18:34:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Reputable pollsters state their methodology and give as much data as possible to ensure that they are not manipulating the polls. You could be out there actually looking for the data instead of complaining that it's not being handed to you in the headlines.
boredatwork9194 · 13 points · Posted at 16:55:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But that's not what plankton taught me
marathonx · 21 points · Posted at 17:37:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
CORRECT!
Simba_Swish · 5 points · Posted at 19:17:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Too bad that didn't kill me
994phij · 7 points · Posted at 17:22:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's not that people don't understand that. It's that they get louder when they're angry or passionate about something.
bizmah · 1 points · Posted at 22:15:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yah I do this all the time and then people think I'm really angry when I raise my voice. I just do it when I'm excited or frustrated, but not on purpose or to be an asshole. I am just a very loud person and I'm trying to fix that.
ButWhyWouldYou · 7 points · Posted at 18:13:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think the opposite might be worse and more common:
Being polite and friendly doesn't make you right. And being angry, loud, rude, and hysterical doesn't make you wrong.
marasei · 5 points · Posted at 17:06:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A corollary: Being confident does not make you right
Thrumpledenoozitty · 3 points · Posted at 16:13:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Doesn't matter; whoever is loudest wins.
Bielzabutt · 3 points · Posted at 16:39:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
AND more willing to talk over what the other person is saying!
LAKingsDave · 3 points · Posted at 17:13:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
-Desmond Tutu
7thgradet3acher · 3 points · Posted at 17:16:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Being popular does not equal being right
Dishonoreduser · 2 points · Posted at 16:17:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You could have fooled my parents.
Damntakeiteasy · 2 points · Posted at 16:37:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
To add to that, being the last one to get a word in doesn't mean you're right.
PigPen90 · 2 points · Posted at 16:43:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Also the habit of name calling in an argument especially when it's not justified.
I don't argue with people about pretty much anything most of the time. I don't feel it's worth the effort when neither of you are going to change each other's opinion. When I see an argument escalate into name calling though, it aggravates me. It lets me know you're arguing on emotions alone and not with any sort of research or fact checking factored in.
Lietenantdan · 2 points · Posted at 18:22:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ad hominems are the worst
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 17:09:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I see correct minority opinions all the time. Things that are just fact, it's not in dispute. But a loud majority may believe otherwise and the quieter minority just shrug and let it go.
TheSlicemanCometh · 2 points · Posted at 17:39:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
90% of the people in your life equal volume with being correct?
Really? You must keep some really shit tier company.
I don't associate with anyone that is that stupid.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 17:41:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I mean, in practice this is not always true. Often the loudest side is remembered as the "right" side.
Let's say an event happens. There are two "versions" of how events played out.
Lets sat v1 is mostly factual. And v2 is more-or-less BS. If the vast majority of the media reports the v2 version, and eventually the history books report v2 as well, guess what?
GazLord · 1 points · Posted at 19:57:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's just proving the guy's point. Too many people take loudness as proof somebody is right.
TheMagnuson · 2 points · Posted at 17:54:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Also, getting the last word in doesn't make you right either.
spacemanspiff30 · 2 points · Posted at 18:00:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
THAT'S JUST LIKE YOUR OPINION MAN!
yousonuva · 2 points · Posted at 18:56:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
YOU SEE WHAT HAPPENS, LARRY!
madboater · 2 points · Posted at 18:03:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But in most cases being louder gets your own way no matter if you are right or not.
coop3345 · 2 points · Posted at 18:06:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
However it is proven that people are more likely believe you're right. Not saying that's a good thing... just that it's a thing.
ContemplatingCyclist · 2 points · Posted at 18:14:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You'll notice that if you immediately stop any discussion you're having once they shout, they'll almost beg you to argue with them.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:25:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Wrong!
gregthedj · 2 points · Posted at 18:31:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
YES IT DOES YOU CUCK! ...../s
peensandrice · 2 points · Posted at 18:36:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"Whomever raises his voice in an argument is the first to lose... unless it's fucking noisy." -- dad quote
St0l3Y0urB4g3ls · 2 points · Posted at 19:24:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"People talk loud when they want to act smart, right?"
"CORRECT"
starfirex · 2 points · Posted at 19:37:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Bullying someone doesn't mean your changed their minds, just that you closed yours.
LibertyTerp · 4 points · Posted at 15:33:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But if you have the most money you can buy an army and propaganda and make everyone think you're right.
buckus69 · 3 points · Posted at 16:21:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Thank You, Supreme Court.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:01:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
maisonlaurel · 2 points · Posted at 18:18:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
NO PUPPET NO PUPPET YOURE THE PUPPET!!
Yeah, those subs are the problem
scroom38 · 3 points · Posted at 20:04:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
For a while people were making a new trump hate sub every week to keep their shit on top of the front page, so people couldnt filter them out. Those subs were a problem.
Everyone bitched about /r/t_d showing up on the front page, but the 50 antitrump subs trying to spam the front page somehow arent a problem.
GazLord · 0 points · Posted at 20:00:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sorry to say this buddy but in general Trumpateers and Trump himself are the loud obnoxious ones who are factually in the wrong.
Bouchnick · 2 points · Posted at 20:36:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You guys should create a dozen more subreddits to cry about it
GazLord · 2 points · Posted at 21:22:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You should stop making your one subreddit into some sort of crazy cult.
Bouchnick · 1 points · Posted at 22:13:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You see, I don't like being part of cults so I avoid them. You should try the same with your 78 different (same) cult subs. Unsubscribe, filter out, be better.
GazLord · 1 points · Posted at 23:02:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
i don't go to any of those subs and most of them don't ban even the smallest dissenting opinion instantly like T_D does.
Bouchnick · 1 points · Posted at 23:06:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Those who don't ban will simply mass downvote any dissenting opinion to oblivion instead. It's literally the same cult-like result except T_D isn't hypocrite about it, it's in their sidebar.
GazLord · 1 points · Posted at 00:56:52 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
T_D is hypocritical as they constantly say things like "dissenting is important" and "we don't ban other's opinions like those filthy leftists"
Also downvoting is disagreeing but it isn't the same as deleting and banning as people can still see the opinion.
Outdoorsinwisconsin · 1 points · Posted at 16:33:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Tell that to Skip Bayless or Stephen A Smith.
causedeffect · 1 points · Posted at 17:12:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Bill Burr would not agree https://youtu.be/_wyXwxYGCg8
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:18:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Joe Rogan would call that "left over monkey shit".
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:23:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Being part of a majority mob doesn't mean being right either.
510Threaded · 1 points · Posted at 17:31:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm looking at you, Jester...
nagol93 · 1 points · Posted at 17:32:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
INCORRECT
nomadikcynic · 1 points · Posted at 17:35:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Also, being louder do not make you more important.
MaarekStele7 · 1 points · Posted at 17:37:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A line out of my favorite SpongeBob episode.
NoidPrime · 1 points · Posted at 17:42:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
https://youtu.be/QZdp68zhQQc
AdamsDJ · 1 points · Posted at 17:43:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Maybe if we play really loud, people will think we're good!
lmg00d · 1 points · Posted at 17:47:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And it's corollary: Just because I gave up arguing with you doesn't mean you're right.
It just means I have better things to do than beat my head bloody against your brick head.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:53:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I WONT DO WHAT YOU TELL ME
natrlselection · 1 points · Posted at 18:04:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What about saying it over and over?
dont_shame_the_slut · 1 points · Posted at 18:05:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not according to it's always sunny
HaveaManhattan · 1 points · Posted at 18:09:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Except on cable news, where loud=right is the modus operandi...
DlProgan · 1 points · Posted at 18:16:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I fucking hate loud people.
sora_phoenix · 1 points · Posted at 18:24:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
being louder means being heard.
AbeLincolnsFreckles · 1 points · Posted at 18:25:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm not convinced. Maybe if you'd used all capitals or bold...
queensage77 · 1 points · Posted at 18:26:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Someone tell my mom this please
PM_PICS_OF_ME_NAKED · 1 points · Posted at 18:31:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Usually the opposite.
PM_PICS_OF_ME_NAKED · 1 points · Posted at 18:31:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Usually the opposite.
Prankishbear · 1 points · Posted at 18:37:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Maybe we should play so quietly, no one can hear us.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:40:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Being louder does equal being funnier though. /s
DoriftuEvo · 1 points · Posted at 18:49:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
VOLUME IS VALIDITY!
MadManatee619 · 1 points · Posted at 18:49:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
History proves otherwise
Tylet-the-bold · 1 points · Posted at 18:49:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Neither does interrupting others.
srcarruth · 1 points · Posted at 18:52:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
and being calmer doesn't make you right, either
Louiekid502 · 1 points · Posted at 18:56:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Dad?
godzillanenny · 1 points · Posted at 18:57:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
i like pooping
JordanStPatrick · 1 points · Posted at 18:58:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
CORRECT
Peloquins_Girl · 1 points · Posted at 19:05:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Unless you were arguing about who was louder.
DrNinjaTrox · 1 points · Posted at 19:06:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Tell that to my sister in law...
GetItReich · 1 points · Posted at 19:08:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Raise your words, not your voice. It's the rain, not the thunder, that makes flowers grow.
IntermachMusic · 1 points · Posted at 19:11:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Unless you're Caribbean
Imagine_Baggins · 1 points · Posted at 19:12:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
WRONG
FuffyKitty · 1 points · Posted at 19:15:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
CORRECT!
Duck_Mc_Scrooge · 1 points · Posted at 19:20:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sometimes it means to be left...
FIBER_GHOST · 1 points · Posted at 19:26:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Unless your in Mexico
Kevin_IRL · 1 points · Posted at 19:34:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Also, you can disagree with someone without attacking their character, intelligence, out value
rabidjellybean · 1 points · Posted at 19:36:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And that being angry never changed anyone's mind. Chill people. You'll look more intelligent.
J_Jammer · 1 points · Posted at 19:39:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Nope. But it sure is fun to do it just to hear someone say THIS DOESN'T MAKE YOU RIGHT CAUYSE YOU ALL LOUD. No, but it does piss you off enough to end this conversation.
Jerenym · 1 points · Posted at 19:43:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
CORRECT!
idreamofdinos · 1 points · Posted at 19:47:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's one of many reasons why when I get frustrated with my second graders, I get quieter. When I'm whispering, they know I'm pissed.
Ag0r · 1 points · Posted at 19:53:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In the military, this is actually the way it works. If you are the same rank as the person you're arguing with about the best way to do something, the louder person will get their way (be right). It can be pretty annoying.
pfloyd102 · 1 points · Posted at 19:58:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
CORRECT!!
null_work · 1 points · Posted at 20:10:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Nor does it equal being wrong.
rcbs · 1 points · Posted at 20:30:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Or, just because you are offended, doesn't mean you are right.
Rainseeker777 · 1 points · Posted at 00:12:12 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's interesting though, I have heard that if you raise your voice PEOPLE WILL TEND TO BELIEVE YOU MORE.
I_can_pun_anything · 1 points · Posted at 17:27:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
tell that to trump
MagicSPA · 2 points · Posted at 16:48:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So why do people from the right shout so much?
[deleted] · 4 points · Posted at 17:42:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[removed]
MagicSPA · 2 points · Posted at 17:45:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I seriously bet you could, at that.
scroom38 · 2 points · Posted at 20:08:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The 2012 warren farrell ontario protest is my favorite example of retarded feminists yelling loudly. Want to attend a seminar about suicide? Ahh, you must be a racist sexist rape apolagist pig who hates women because a few years ago I saw a fake quote attributed to the speaker.
"Have you actually read the book youre saying is hateful?"
"Well no but..."
samsu402 · 1 points · Posted at 18:02:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Best comment here !
u-n-i-t-y · 0 points · Posted at 17:34:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
r/far_right
spartan6222 · 9571 points · Posted at 14:51:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Insulting someone's choice/intelligence is not going to change their mind.
BarnacleBears · 4201 points · Posted at 17:09:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I've always heard that the second you start to insult someone, you've lost the argument.
[deleted] · 9110 points · Posted at 18:03:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
throwing dirt is losing ground
Thatguy_Koop · 1316 points · Posted at 18:07:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
well I'll be damned.
Prankishbear · 51 points · Posted at 18:36:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Hamilton's on your side.
precedentia · 27 points · Posted at 18:41:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yees fam
r/expectedhamilton
Prankishbear · 9 points · Posted at 18:42:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm home
[deleted] · 16 points · Posted at 19:20:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Seriously, this whole thread is filled with crunchy little nuggets of colloquial wisdom
powerscunner · 11 points · Posted at 19:06:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That takes a lot more dirt.
Or a couple beavers.
TropicOps · 7 points · Posted at 19:22:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When you point a finger at someone you got three fingers pointing back at you
Pornada1 · 3 points · Posted at 18:58:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think that is throwing trees...
Prof_Piggy_Pants · 2 points · Posted at 19:04:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"ANOTHER newcomer"
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:37:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When i see this you have 666 up votes so maybe you are damned.
Thatguy_Koop · 2 points · Posted at 19:41:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
my life is spiraling out of control
ObeseOstrich · 182 points · Posted at 19:05:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Thats why you carry extra with you, pocket sand
cgome1 · 23 points · Posted at 19:31:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sha-shaaa!
Wadysseus · 7 points · Posted at 19:53:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
/r/pocketsand
adidapizza · 3 points · Posted at 21:25:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How does that have 29,000 subscribers?!
Captcha142 · 2 points · Posted at 13:32:06 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
How does it not have more?
PM_ME_YOUR_FACES · 1 points · Posted at 16:29:25 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Everyone's losing ground
[deleted] · 5 points · Posted at 20:00:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"I have a jar of dirt!"
Cletus_Van_Damme23 · 2 points · Posted at 20:54:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And you can throw it in their face. While they are blinded, you win the argument because your opponent is too busy getting sand out of their eyes to make their point.
MrTuddles · 1 points · Posted at 22:38:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you think about it you're basically adding more ground.
l___I · 20 points · Posted at 19:13:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
/r/unexpectedproverb
skysophrenic · 29 points · Posted at 18:20:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Deep
iwannaelroyyou · 12 points · Posted at 18:30:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The more dirt you throw the more ground you lose and the deeper you put yourself inside a hole that is harder to get out of.
I tried 😞
ctwoods916 · 58 points · Posted at 18:46:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
less is more
iwannaelroyyou · 12 points · Posted at 19:20:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I can dig it.
Clashin_Creepers · 5 points · Posted at 19:34:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
More is less
As you are in the process of the increasing of the dirt you're throwing that dirt was actually the ground you were standing on in 7h3 53nc3 7h47 y0ur 4r6um3n7 15 c0ll4951n6. Taht mgiht rmenid you of a ctreain poliiatin. if you can read that last part, that means your a genius (IQ more than 130!!) because you're brain can evolve to fit changing stimuli (that's the plural). If you're a really genius like me (IQ 176.38909), you don't even notice when it shifts, and sometimes 5w17ch between types of writing midsentence without noticing.
For the dumbass fuckmonkeys that comprise most of my Facebook friends on this site (sigh, intelligence is a burden) what this means is that once you start insulting someone, you're loosing the argument. For example, sometimes I'll write one of my thoughtful posts, and some asshole in the comments will be like, "fuck off, you pretentious goof" that's when they have already lost to my more intellectual points YEAH, ASSHOLE, WHO'S THE GOOF, THE GUY CONTRIBUTING TO PUBLIC DISCOURSE OR THE TROLL COMMENTER ALWAYS POSTING NICE THINGS ABOUT HIS PRETTY GIRLFRIEND. YOU CAN HAVE YOUR SHINY FACADE, BUT DON'T EVER QUESTION THE INTEGRITY OF THIS FACEBOOK PAGE. YOU ASSHOLES HAVE NO IDEA HOW MUCH EFFORT 1 9U7 1N70 5T1MUL471NG YUOR MIDNS!.
Anyway, this whole post is an original quote by me, you can use it, but be sure to credit me using my first, middle, and last names. If you don't know my middle name, maybe you could get to know your friends better before using their fucking quotes. Maybe invite me to do something other than sit behind the god damned computer all day and educate you ungrateful urchins. Invite me to go have fun, like all you assholes do all day, and bring up middle names in the conversation. It would be educational for the both of us.
Fuck you.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:03:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
SadGhoster87 · 2 points · Posted at 20:25:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
/r/atethepasta
Clashin_Creepers · 1 points · Posted at 20:35:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, but to his credit, it was original pasta
Clashin_Creepers · 1 points · Posted at 20:34:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Thanks, that's what I was going for
BrokenZen · 3 points · Posted at 19:24:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
!RedditSilver iwannaelroyyou
iwannaelroyyou · 1 points · Posted at 19:25:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
!RedditSilver
BrokenZen · 1 points · Posted at 20:31:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
bot must be broken :(
/r/RedditSilverRobot/
The_Revolutionary · 9 points · Posted at 19:17:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Never heard this one but I'm digging it
ForeverTheX · 15 points · Posted at 18:26:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's why you gotta throw shade
Nananamoose · 8 points · Posted at 18:45:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Why does shade get such a bad rep anyway? It's frickin hot out there.
tornumbrella · 17 points · Posted at 18:20:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What about throwing lava? Is that the low ground?
BuzzKillingtonThe4th · 27 points · Posted at 18:26:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's over once they have the high ground.
(Shoutout to /r/PrequelMemes)
sageadam · 5 points · Posted at 18:48:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You would burn yourself
Aaron_tu · 3 points · Posted at 19:25:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Don't try it!
SinaSyndrome · 2 points · Posted at 18:37:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You're the Obi-wan that knows.
kenriko · 1 points · Posted at 18:31:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Get out of here Dewight
iamnotsurewhattoname · 6 points · Posted at 19:23:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And more often than not you end up soiling yourself
ZWE_Punchline · 10 points · Posted at 18:51:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is one of the best sayings I've heard, I think.
[deleted] · 12 points · Posted at 19:01:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My late father, US Navy pilot.
ZWE_Punchline · 9 points · Posted at 19:03:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well you know what? I think he was a very good egg.
[deleted] · 9 points · Posted at 19:32:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Thanks man. He really was.
Toads_are_bros · 2 points · Posted at 20:02:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's also a good George Strait song.
Edgegasm · 9 points · Posted at 18:25:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Stealing this
garagerocker18 · 3 points · Posted at 19:11:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What about pocket sand?
TheSmJ · 3 points · Posted at 19:12:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What about pocket sand?
BrohanGutenburg · 3 points · Posted at 19:16:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is why I love proverbs. I like to think that while pronouns stand in place of specific people (Jeff decided he didn't like eggs). 'He' stands in as shorthand for 'Jeff'. In the same way, proverbs stand for specific (and often more wordy and complicated) actions. I doubt that's the etymology, but I always thought it was cool.
omahony22 · 3 points · Posted at 19:33:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
HEY ASSHOLE, GIVE ME BACK MY DIRT!
bugbits · 2 points · Posted at 19:07:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
don't worry, it'll fall back to the earth once gravity's done with it
avo_cado · 2 points · Posted at 19:10:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
fuck that's good
ALittleSurprise1013 · 2 points · Posted at 19:18:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Obi-Wan didn't throw dirt...
FadeCrimson · 2 points · Posted at 19:45:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ohoooho damn, that's some choice wordsmithing. I'm totally going to steal it later on. Is this a quote from someplace, or is it a Cliffmoore02 original?
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 20:28:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
it was one of my Dad's gems. All yours for the low low price of one upvote.
FadeCrimson · 1 points · Posted at 20:50:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's a price I simply CAN'T pass up! What a salesman. The world's next Billy Mays without a doubt.
Bucks_trickland · 2 points · Posted at 20:31:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That is beautiful
Someone tell this to Trump. Just kidding, he wouldn't listen.
HoratioMarburgo · 3 points · Posted at 18:27:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ooh.. that's a good one
T-Angeles · 1 points · Posted at 19:15:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Dad... not again...
instantrobotwar · 1 points · Posted at 19:21:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The should be embroidered on a pillow.
Cl_FrankSlade · 1 points · Posted at 19:26:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's like one of the things you see on your doctor's wall.
MrMantis765 · 1 points · Posted at 19:28:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Never lose the high ground.
speaktosumboedy · 1 points · Posted at 19:30:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just like throwing shade is losing light?
master_assclown · 1 points · Posted at 19:32:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Throwing shade is exposing yourself to be burned.
null_work · 1 points · Posted at 19:32:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Completely invalidated by this last presidential election.
Brook420 · 1 points · Posted at 19:34:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ooooh, I'm stealing this one.
almondchild · 1 points · Posted at 19:35:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Digging yourself a hole will make others look down upon you.
GetsGoldEveryComment · 1 points · Posted at 19:38:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But throwing dirt is also loosing ground.
Good for farmers.
dudenotcool · 1 points · Posted at 19:42:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not in politics
suleb · 1 points · Posted at 19:46:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Unless you're Avatar the Last Airbender
BrayWyattsHat · 1 points · Posted at 19:50:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Buy kicking dirt, well that's just baseball baby.
SunnySiideUp · 1 points · Posted at 19:56:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Unless you are a politician
ZTF_Artorias · 1 points · Posted at 20:04:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Fuck I like this phrase
brainiac3397 · 1 points · Posted at 20:26:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Jokes on you, I carry extra dirt in my pockets!
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:32:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Pocket Sand!
Fleeting_Infinity · 1 points · Posted at 20:51:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Shit that's good.
jarejay · 1 points · Posted at 20:53:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Beautiful. This will stick with me for the rest of my life now.
Psyman2 · 1 points · Posted at 22:24:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Damn, that's good.
spartan6222 · 1 points · Posted at 18:26:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I like it
Brutally_Sarcastic · 0 points · Posted at 18:42:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well I hope it's Organic, you monster!
okletstrythisagain · 0 points · Posted at 18:44:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You can't argue with stupid.
DaanHai · -1 points · Posted at 19:00:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is beautiful
Thepolander · -1 points · Posted at 19:00:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Woah.
luzzy91 · -2 points · Posted at 18:34:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Cuz you're literally scooping up the ground? But....but, it falls back down! You're just moving ground. Unless you throw it in their mouth I 'spose. Hmmmm. Quite the brain teaser, thanks man
00000000000001000000 · 3 points · Posted at 18:48:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
throwing = throwing away from you, which implies losing possession of
luzzy91 · 1 points · Posted at 21:29:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Lol you guys are a fan of that metaphor, I am not. I've never lost anything I've thrown. Ive moved it... Especially here where it's implying that you're throwing dirt at a person, i.e an insult. Where exactly does that dirt go? Three feet in front of you = not losing. Either way, it was a purposely shitty joke, and I understand what he wants it to mean.
Xyllar · 27 points · Posted at 17:54:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The second either party starts throwing insults, everyone has lost the argument and it's probably better to just walk away.
[deleted] · 7 points · Posted at 18:52:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Except in any public setting where you're fighting to convince people other than the person you're directly arguing against. And people respond well to a convincing but logically void argument for why so and so is an idiot so you shouldn't listen to him.
null_work · 4 points · Posted at 19:34:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If throwing insults didn't gain ground, we'd have a completely different president.
spartan6222 · 2 points · Posted at 18:14:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But oh how good it feels to keep slinging shit like a monkey! Never mind if it actually helps anything
maglen69 · 41 points · Posted at 17:40:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ad Hominem fallacy.
When you can't beat their argument, attack the person.
ZackWyvern · 40 points · Posted at 17:59:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This doesn't apply if you've beaten their argument and then call them an idiot, which is more likely to be the situation in the thread OP.
BenFoldsFourLoko · 40 points · Posted at 18:24:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I see so many people sperging out about "AD HOMINEM FALLACY" while linking to that damn website. They don't realize that ad hominem isn't a formal fallacy and that it only applies when you replace your valid argument with personal attacks, not when you call them an idiot while providing a real argument. But by the time they pull that phrase out, it's over anyway.
[deleted] · 13 points · Posted at 18:50:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ironically, most people that complain about the ad hominem fallacy use their complaint about it as a replacement for an argument.
null_work · 3 points · Posted at 19:31:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The good ol' fallacy fallacy.
pls-dont-judge-me · 5 points · Posted at 19:02:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Although an insult beside a valid point doesn't invalidate the point it does somewhat invalidate the person. As with all logical fallacies (fallacys?) It is not a trap card to be played on your opponent in an argument but a set of tools to help notice your own flaws in debate. If you or someone else is using insults in a debate it is a good sign they are probably arguing the person and not the point. When they do that they usually don't respond well the counter arguments well and take attacks on their stance as a personal attack. When either side gets defensive neither side "wins" it simply stops discussion and wastes everyone's time. Unless their goal is to troll then they are winning.
TheManWhoPanders · 1 points · Posted at 19:18:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The problem with this line of thinking is that everyone thinks they've "beaten" the other person's argument, even when they're wrong. A lot of people fail to account for new information into their worldview.
nickburgess · 4 points · Posted at 18:07:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Except the one throwing the insults tend to think they won. And if the other person insults back then they might as well have won anyways.
[deleted] · 5 points · Posted at 18:23:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Jesus, tell that to every internet forum in the world.
Zerole00 · 5 points · Posted at 18:35:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
TBH, some arguments are lost the moment you become a participant.
I mean seriously, you're going to argue logic with someone that thinks the Earth is flat?
Linckel · 2 points · Posted at 18:43:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Or the right vs left bullshit. Nobody is going to change their political opinion after all the insults they just will have a less reason to change.
goodr14 · 4 points · Posted at 18:16:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Unless the person you are arguing with is offended by any opposing views.
thatguy2366 · 4 points · Posted at 18:17:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
On Reddit that often happens by line two.
Isord · 5 points · Posted at 18:24:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No it doesn't you stupid asshole.
thatguy2366 · 3 points · Posted at 18:33:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My highly questionable facts which I won't question state otherwise.....cuck.
emikochan · 6 points · Posted at 18:05:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Depends on what insults them. Some people are insulted by literally any criticism.
LegalAss · 11 points · Posted at 17:55:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I like to think of insults as creative spices I sprinkle on my argument dish, rather than the whole meal
oatscoop · 3 points · Posted at 20:06:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The comments here are coming from the idea that rational points and facts are the key to winning an argument -- that's not always the case. People aren't robots or Vulcans, and all those logical fallacies work. If they didn't, people wouldn't use them.
You're going to lose arguments if you don't know how those fallacies work and how to use them well. Making the other person look like a fool and winning people over with clever, funny insults works better in advancing your agenda than a dry, rational argument by itself.
There's a reason the stuff like The Daily Show and FOX are better at shifting opinions than base factual reporting.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:54:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's more like dropping a deuce on a steak and expecting the person to still eat it.
LegalAss · 4 points · Posted at 18:55:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Nobody forces them to eat it though. They do it all on their own
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:13:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No they don't. "Eating" in this case would be actually listening and thinking about your argument.
LegalAss · 2 points · Posted at 19:34:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
They may not think deeply about it but they definitely hear it and retort, especially on Reddit
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:39:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And? Have you ever "spiced" every comment with insults and had someone totally come around to your way of thinking?
Just feeling triumphant by getting any kind of response is called trolling.
LegalAss · 2 points · Posted at 19:45:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Man I made a joke and you're taking it way too seriously. Look through my comment history, am I really running around trolling people?
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:48:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Could've been a valid argument three comments ago, but right now its just being a tool.
ContemplatingCyclist · 6 points · Posted at 18:13:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
As hypocritical as I may seem, that makes you an arse.
011000110111001001 · 2 points · Posted at 18:23:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No, it's what makes him an ass.
ContemplatingCyclist · 1 points · Posted at 18:23:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well let's just agree that it makes him an anus.
thatguy2366 · 2 points · Posted at 18:19:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Spicing food makes you an arse?
BowjaDaNinja · 1 points · Posted at 18:22:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
As hypocritical as I may seem, that makes you an arse.
SadGhoster87 · 2 points · Posted at 20:27:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
As hypocritical as I may seem, that makes you an arse.
grape_tectonics · 3 points · Posted at 18:36:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not true, if middle school taught me anything, its that ridicule is the best way to make somebody reconsider their entire life. You might think its different between adults but in most cases it's not really.
burf · 3 points · Posted at 18:02:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Man, I've had so many people on the Internet immediately lose arguments to me. it hurts so bad
alwayswatchyoursix · 5 points · Posted at 18:07:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I know I agree with that.
If we're having a discussion about something, and we clearly have differing viewpoints, I'll still talk to the other person about it until we're out of time. But as soon as they switch to personal attacks, I'm out.
GlyphGryph · 5 points · Posted at 18:50:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If they've switched to personal attacks, either:
a) You've won the argument and they have nothing left.
b) You aren't arguing in good faith, you're arguing out of willful ignorance, or they've otherwise realized there's absolutely nothing to gain from the exchange beyond personal satisfaction
c) There's been a serious miscommunication leading them to believe b is true
or finally, d) They were never "arguing" in good faith themselves, or just outright never saw it as an argument, this is just an opportunity for them to mock you or insult you either to appeal to an audience or for personal satisfaction.
It could be any of the above or maybe even more!
ThePineapplePyro · 1 points · Posted at 23:21:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yep. D probably describes the majority of "arguments" I see online and its why I tend to avoid reddit arguments unless the other people seems willing to have a civilized discussion.
thedizzle11 · 2 points · Posted at 18:33:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I've heard this as well but depending on your surroundings and arguments this doesn't always seem to be the case.
xtinalala · 2 points · Posted at 18:36:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
90% of Reddit arguments. I get called stupid/ignorant/uneducated at least once a week by stuck up idiots simply bc I disagree with them.
silentjay01 · 2 points · Posted at 19:04:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But you can still win the Presidency.
Suapsycho03 · 2 points · Posted at 19:17:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The whole thing is a loss when it becomes an argument instead of a discussion or debate. It also seems many can't distinguish the difference between a debate and an argument.
jhudiddy08 · 2 points · Posted at 19:17:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I've heard something similar, that whenever you start to yell at someone, you've lost the argument. As soon as you get aggressive like that, people stop listening to the aggressor and focus on what they will say in response. It's always the sign of a shitty manager when they confuse voice volume with leadership.
karossii · 2 points · Posted at 19:32:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It depends. If the insult is your argument, you have lost. If it is wholly separate from the argument, and just thrown in for fun/flavor, you're (possibly) doing fine.
hamlet9000 · 2 points · Posted at 19:58:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's the kind of fallacy only an idiot would post.
rivermandan · 2 points · Posted at 20:02:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
that's because you're a stupid dumb face and your elbows are too pointy.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:01:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Usually by the person being insulted
rogue_LOVE · 1 points · Posted at 18:19:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You actually start turning off their brain and usually your own brain when you do that. So yeah, pretty much what you said.
metalzack · 1 points · Posted at 18:23:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I guess liberals won't be winning anytime soon
NONAMEBLANKFACE · 1 points · Posted at 18:41:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
but what if youre calling them a nazi
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:42:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Lol who gave you that idea, moron?
alexng30 · 1 points · Posted at 18:44:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
(o´･_･)っ bro...
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:45:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is a rule that I find useful with dating. If she's insulting me instead of discussing whatever the issue is I don't want a relationship with a person of that temperament.
goblett · 1 points · Posted at 18:52:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well youre wrong you dope!
ChucklefuckBitch · 1 points · Posted at 19:03:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
To take it one step further... as soon as you're in an argument at all, you've lost the argument.
SonOfSparda304 · 1 points · Posted at 19:03:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Either way it's a great way to make sure the other guy won't want to listen to you or take your side
ihatedogs2 · 1 points · Posted at 19:15:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No shut the fuck up you dumb idiot.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:16:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I agree. If I'm arguing using logic and you start arguing using emotion, I've already won and I don't bother continuing.
null_work · 2 points · Posted at 19:40:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And when someone uses reason and insults?
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:36:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's a next level move. Reasonable insults.
TheManWhoPanders · 1 points · Posted at 19:17:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You'd think that, but /r/politics seems to have missed the memo.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:17:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Dont tell Trump or his supporters!
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:23:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Similar to something my dad had said (except relating to violence).
"Violence is the last bastion of a man under siege"
AgoraiosBum · 1 points · Posted at 19:24:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well, once you start insulting you've given up on persuading. However, some people go into the argument with no intention of being persuaded. If you've absolutely destroyed someone logically and they keep coming back with foolishness, some clever mocking doesn't mean you've lost the argument.
null_work · 1 points · Posted at 19:30:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Implying there is such a thing as winning an argument. Oh sweet summer child...
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:32:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well, if I'm insulting someone, I'm no longer interested in arguing.
Banzai51 · 1 points · Posted at 19:36:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Only if the other side of the argument believes that about themselves.
NoWar_But_ClassWar · 1 points · Posted at 19:55:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I mean I would think once it gets to insults the people already know they aren't getting anywhere anyways.
How many arguments do you win on the internet being nice? I can't think of any. In person, sure. On the internet? You aren't changing anyone's mind. You probably aren't even talking to a real person.
jet_heller · 1 points · Posted at 20:00:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Keep in mind that the opposite is true: When you realize that you stand no chance of winning because of the other person, go ahead and insult them, it does no harm.
cosmicsans · 1 points · Posted at 20:14:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, but the problem is that it works. I mean, look at the US Government right now....
obievil · 1 points · Posted at 23:12:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Agreed, it doesn't matter how vaild your point is, no one cares if you're an asshole.
rnd_usrnme · 1 points · Posted at 22:48:24 on August 25, 2017 · (Permalink)
you're an idiot if you actually believe that tho
SirBackspace · 1 points · Posted at 18:01:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A good rule is, don't insult or make fun of someone whom you agree with on 50% of things. i.e. Get along
jayzilla3666 · 1 points · Posted at 18:16:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I heard it as 'the first person to raise their voice has just lost the argument.'
Gabrovi · 1 points · Posted at 18:55:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Worked for Trump!
Gibborim · -1 points · Posted at 18:11:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Or the moment you mention the cisheteropatriarchy.
Isord · 0 points · Posted at 18:23:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Eh. If I say "The Sky is blue" and someone else says "The Sky is polka dot and filled to the brim with rainbow clouds." and I follow up with "No it isn't, you blind monkey." I haven't lost the argument.
I think your statement holds true in most situations but sometimes there are clear and distinct truths, and calling someone an idiot for denying them doesn't suddenly change that fact.
TheManWhoPanders · 2 points · Posted at 19:19:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You have lost the argument. You're not wrong, but in terms of being persuasive you've lost entirely. Not only to your opponent, but people watching on the sidelines.
Isord · 1 points · Posted at 19:22:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Most arguments are lost from the start if your definition of losing is not changing someone's mind.
TheManWhoPanders · 1 points · Posted at 19:23:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That is quite literally the only definition of winning or losing a debate.
Isord · 1 points · Posted at 19:25:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't think most people engage in private debate in the hopes of changing minds, but just to test their own ideas against the ideas of others.
TheManWhoPanders · 1 points · Posted at 19:26:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Fair point.
Isord · 1 points · Posted at 19:27:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And to be fair to your own point if you are trying to actually change minds I would agree flinging insults isn't the way to do it. Sometimes it is just pointless to engage people in such a manner.
null_work · 1 points · Posted at 19:40:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No it isn't. Debates are scored based on a criteria revolving around the argument you give, its clarity, presentation, etc. It's not even remotely realistic to score a debate based on changing minds.
null_work · 1 points · Posted at 19:37:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I doubt many people on the sidelines are mentally deficient enough to take the opposing side in that argument over some name calling.
TheManWhoPanders · 0 points · Posted at 20:32:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What? The overwhelming majority of people are influenced to some degree by the attitudes of the speaker, regardless of the truth of their words.
null_work · 1 points · Posted at 15:15:57 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Right, but look at what you're responding to. We're not talking about tricky dilemmas or some weird ethical conundrum. The overwhelming majority of people will not side with something ridiculous just because the person presenting the opposing view had poor tact. Most people aren't going to support nuking Canada just because the person arguing we shouldn't called the other person an idiot. If you think someone loses any argument over such things, you're possibly in the aforementioned category in my previous comment.
TheManWhoPanders · 0 points · Posted at 15:20:28 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
You're very wrong about that. You're making the mistake of assuming people are all hyper-rationalists; the majority aren't. A lot of people are swayed by attitude alone. It's why charismatic people are able to dupe people so easily.
null_work · 1 points · Posted at 15:32:39 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
You need to be hyperrational to not agree with "Let's nuke Canada" over someone using some insults? I seriously want you to respond to this stance. Show me some studies. Show me some evidence on how the majority of people will agree that we should execute people for being black or some other extreme claim because the person who said "we shouldn't do that" used an insult. You can't seriously buy your own bullshit, yea? It takes hyperrational thought to think "Even though that person was an ass, we shouldn't nuke Canada." Maybe you should try being only slightly rational, yea?
TheManWhoPanders · 1 points · Posted at 15:34:56 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Do you always make up your own arguments? That makes you sound stupid to everyone around you. But you can't tell that you do, which makes sense that you aren't understanding this point.
You are literally too stupid to understand how stupid you are.
null_work · 1 points · Posted at 15:39:46 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I didn't even start this. The person you originally responded to framed it in a nice way, they even rationally agreed that this is only applicable to certain arguments. But you're too mentally deficient to not be a sensational twat who likes to lecture others because they used some naughty words. From the get go, you had no point because the person you responded to was quite clear and concise, offering the fucking middle ground. Your brilliance clearly shone through.
You're so stupid that you just said someone has to be a "hyper-rationalist" in order to overcome an insult towards someone saying we should nuke Canada, lest they agree, frothing at the mouth over the travesty that is an insult to another human being, that we should nuke Canada.
You are, objectively, by basic empirical observation, the bottom of the barrel of being mentally functioning. It's amazing you're capable of even forming a response, as it's clear you're incapable of comprehending your own, deep and profound idiocy, let alone the words you're reading.
TheManWhoPanders · 0 points · Posted at 15:45:37 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Notice how you had a visceral reaction to my insulting you? You just proved my point. You had zero interest in trying to understand my point, because I resorted to insulting you. You proved my point.
There is a chance you're still too stupid to grasp it.
null_work · 1 points · Posted at 16:03:42 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Aww, how cute. It thinks it understands logic now.
I understand your point. It's wrong. People are influenced by such superficial things all the time, sure. If you left it at that, there wouldn't have been any contention, but clearly you're too developmentally delayed to have left it there. You brought it straight into absurdity by stating that most people will exhibit this behavior all the time, rejecting the OP's claim that it such influence doesn't happen for some subset of arguments.
A Christian won't become a Muslim because some other Christian insulted a Muslim. You're apparently too dense to not realize this.
nagol93 · 862 points · Posted at 17:30:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Similarly, insulting someone is not a good way to get them to do something.
Guy: "Hay, can you do <thing>?"
Me: "uuuummm, sure. Just let me finish this thing im working on"
Guy: "Come on man. Just do <thing> real quick. Dont be an asshat"
Me: "FUCK YOU! Now im not going to do it at all"
Guy: "Why?"
Me: "Because you called me an 'asshat'."
steedlemeister · 99 points · Posted at 18:20:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Unless you're trying to convince one of your buddies to do something. All you gotta say is "don't be a bitch" and you've successfully motivated the shit out of them.
Cybiu5 · 32 points · Posted at 19:05:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"do it or no balls"
Fuck_Alice · 10 points · Posted at 19:57:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I have never seen "or" in this statement
itsTourched · 7 points · Posted at 20:17:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"no balls" is sufficient enough.
Countsfromzero · 3 points · Posted at 19:51:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is me every single time I've explained how to do anything the least bit dangerous, followed immediately by Korean advice.
"Step one, don't be a bitch. Step two, do the thing."
I'll demonstrate and explain later, but the look on people's face never gets old to me. I might be a bit of a douche sometimes.
steedlemeister · 1 points · Posted at 21:02:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You may be a douche, but you're the right kind of douche.
tvdinner4me · 6 points · Posted at 19:26:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Haha no. I would happily tell my friends to shove it if they tried that
Help-Attawapaskat · 11 points · Posted at 19:44:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
if i had friends
BlueScholar15 · 2 points · Posted at 20:05:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Don't be a bitch dude
freakzilla149 · 4 points · Posted at 20:02:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You know what really motivates me? Blowjobs.
perfectdarktrump · 0 points · Posted at 20:56:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's what I keep telling my company. They have hot chicks, but they are wasted.
steedlemeister · 1 points · Posted at 21:02:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So not even wasted hot chicks are giving you blowjobs? You got some training to do, son.
perfectdarktrump · 1 points · Posted at 20:54:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Do it or I tell everyone about Bangkok
shenanigins · 4 points · Posted at 19:07:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I find with social choices, that could potentially be awkward or embarrassing, if someone tells me what to do I will begin to go out of my way to not do it and spite them. Especially if they try to micromanage the action.
perfectdarktrump · 2 points · Posted at 20:57:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I sometimes give advice, I don't even care if they follow it but they tell me to mind my business. Then weeks later they in trouble for not following my advice.
How do you tell someone to do something if you not their boss?
shenanigins · 1 points · Posted at 03:55:51 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah I get that, I'm thinking of the awkward middle school crap that some adults continue to pull. Having their friend intervene and play the middleman and tell you what to do. Immediately lose interest in anything going on and I'm out.
perfectdarktrump · 1 points · Posted at 07:07:22 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oh that happens all the time. It's almost like they think if there is more of them than you they get to boss you around.
Vauxlient4 · 2 points · Posted at 20:13:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Me: "Do it or I'll kill you."
Guy: "OK, done."
nagol93 · 1 points · Posted at 20:53:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Me: "So, I get to be lazy and die??? Sign me up!"
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 21:37:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You just sound butthurt
nagol93 · 3 points · Posted at 21:46:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well my ass is in a bit o pain right now. Shouldn't have had Mexican for lunch
[deleted] · 15 points · Posted at 18:40:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You mean like calling 49% of the population a bunch of racist, bigoted, misogynistic basket of deplorables?
[deleted] · 36 points · Posted at 19:21:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Or calling anyone who disagrees with that population a snowflake/libtard?
Yes, like that.
master_assclown · 13 points · Posted at 19:41:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is the problem with a lot of Americans (on both sides of the political spectrum). Neither side enjoys the labels bestowed upon them, but somehow justifies the labels that they themselves bestow upon the "opposition." Both sides are guilty of this and both are wrong for doing so. I am not saying you are necessarily guilty of it and I believe you are pointing out the same thing that I am...I am just offering my 2 cents.
Sand_Coffin · 5 points · Posted at 23:16:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, I learned that recently.
I didn't get my US citizenship until Summer '15 (green card holder until then). Before then, I never eyeballed politics. I was always just under the impression that because I couldn't vote, it didn't matter, and I couldn't complain.
After I got my citizenship, I started following ideas a lot more. I started familiarizing myself with what makes the left and right different (free information: I'm left).
When Donald Trump started to get more and more following, there was a lot of swell in what names his supporters got called. Trumpets was a common one. I know there were others but they're evading me now. Then John Oliver does his bit about Drumpf, so that's all over the place as well.
As someone who wasn't a fan of Trump in really any capacity, I stood behind the name calling pretty actively, though never actually participating myself. Just not really condemning.
But then I also learned that I ABHOR the terms snowflakes and libtards. They were just so... shallow. They don't carry any weight in a conversation. They exist so you can demean the other side.
It took me longer than I care to admit how hypocritical I was being by condoning the name calling from the left while condemning only the name calling from the right.
But once it clicked, it stuck. Discussions need to center around policy, not around names. There's no point in talking to someone who insists on speaking like that, be they right or left.
TL;DR: I stopped condoning name-calling when I realized it made me a hypocrite. Which took longer than it should have.
freakzilla149 · 3 points · Posted at 20:04:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yup, went from arguments to purely a matter of "our side" winning, it's been happening for a few decades too.
master_assclown · 2 points · Posted at 20:55:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Unfortunately it has now led to violence. Groups like Antifa and "the alt-right" are straight up beating and, in some cases, killing one another.
We must remember that we are all Americans. We have the right to voice our opinions no matter who disagrees or how stupid they may be. We cannot resort to violence in any case. It's too late, however, as violence has broken out.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 19:29:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I dislike libtard and "cuck" for exactly the same reason--so at least I am consistent.
I do often use "snowflake" as it does accurately represent the participation trophy--I should be the executive VP despite being young, inexperienced, and not putting in my dues---segment of the millennial population that I commonly encounter.
gigajesus · 10 points · Posted at 19:34:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I completely understand the first half of your username!
bridge_pidge · 12 points · Posted at 19:47:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The second half is a person who practices law.
Extractum11 · 2 points · Posted at 22:10:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Hm, but what's the second half your username?
ThalanirIII · 6 points · Posted at 21:17:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The kids didn't invent the participation trophy - look to the parents (i.e. baby boomers or whatever) for that great idea.
Snowflake.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 21:54:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Never said they did. Doesn't change the outcome.
ThalanirIII · 3 points · Posted at 10:35:37 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Are you saying that kids gettting participation trophies directly causes/makes them prone to being entitled shits later in life?
Bear in mind that since pretty much all kids get participation trophies (by definition) but not all grow up to be arseholes so there's got to be something else in play, so even assuming millenials/genY whatever are more likely to be entitled shits, it's not the participation trophies.
I think you're showing that there are entitled shits in every generation.
master_assclown · 7 points · Posted at 19:38:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You were on the right path with the first half of your comment, but then you went astray. I am a Donald supporter as I am assuming you are. Name calling amd inflammatory language is unacceptable, in my opinion, in all forms. Snowflake is no exception. I cannot tell you how to live your life, but it would do you (and everyone else) good to not resort to name calling; no matter the reason or justification behind it.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 01:09:18 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
The participation trophy concept is weird to me, too. I don't understand why someone would be rewarded for not putting forth effort. I believe that the time and work people invest should be rewarded proportionally.
I've mostly seen snowflake used to refer condescendingly to people who get up in arms, figuratively speaking, about stuff that other people do. An example I have in mind is the current military transgender situation going on. In this case, if the behaviors I've seen remained consistent, the ones defending transgender people would be called "snowflakes".
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 13:50:53 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
"SNOWFLAKE" refers to people who think they are socially and unique and the world revolives around them
[deleted] · 9 points · Posted at 19:22:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Uh, 49% of the voters is not the same as 49% of the population. It's actually only 20% of the population.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:30:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In an election the only population that matters are those that vote.
ceetc · 6 points · Posted at 20:00:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That doesn't sound like the population you were referring to above. You made a mistake. It happens.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 21:55:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So children, anyone under the age of 18, they don't matter? That being said, I was just giving a simple correction.
Mildly_Opinionated · 2 points · Posted at 23:06:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well politicians will often screw over children's futures or subject them to higher stresses of mess up the education system simply because they don't vote. They do care about their parents votes though so it can't be blatant.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 22:16:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not in the context of what I said or the rejoinder to my post.
TheManWhoPanders · 3 points · Posted at 19:22:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's really remarkable. The outcome of the 2016 election was to reject that style of insulting rhetoric, but they insist on doubling down on it in 2017. At some point they'll have to eventually give it up.
[deleted] · 6 points · Posted at 19:02:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Clinton's quote, made on September 8th, 2016.
Rough polling numbers for the top 3 candidates on September 8th.
If we take her statement of half literally we're looking at about 19-20% of all voters. If you're going to take her statement literally at least get your numbers right.
EDIT: I found this info in 5 minutes at FiveThirtyEight's polls only page
[deleted] · 6 points · Posted at 19:07:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
kyew · 8 points · Posted at 19:13:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Maybe that's why she immediately went on the address the others
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 19:17:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Maybe you also need to consider the propensity of her and the left to label anyone who disagrees with them and is guilty of "wrong-think" as an "-ist."
Evisrayle · 9 points · Posted at 19:22:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I mean, I'm left-leaning and I don't do that. Maybe you should've said "some people from the left".
Or maybe you just didn't do it because, in the grand scheme of things, if I didn't assume that you wanted to throw dirt at me, I would've assumed that I simply wasn't in the segment of the population that you were talking about in your comment?
[deleted] · 8 points · Posted at 19:27:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well, that is just based on my experience. I live in a city and am part of a profession where it is suicide to be "centrist" much less "conservative." The educated, professional, highly-intelligent people I work with simple cannot even fathom that one can hold conservative values and not be "hateful." You literally cannot have a stance on ANY significant position that is out-of-line with the current en vogue group think
Dislike the affordable care act = want people to die
Want strong immigrant control = hate brown people
Oppose affirmative action = hate black people
Want tax cuts = hate poor people
How can you have any sort of meaningful discussion or debate when that is the rejoinder?
And I used the word "left" NOT "liberal"--they are non synonymous.
The current "left" is a bunch of authoritarians parading as anti-fascists.
gigajesus · 7 points · Posted at 19:37:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think if you re-read your comment you'll see you're making as broad and as many generalizations as what you're accusing others of doing.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:51:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oh, you mean making broad, derogatory generalizations isn't a way to convince people?
gigajesus · 2 points · Posted at 01:27:25 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes, that is what I mean. And if you know that, why would you do that?
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 02:18:27 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
To prove a point
gigajesus · 2 points · Posted at 15:40:58 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Interesting
spacedoutinspace · 2 points · Posted at 20:14:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The thing is, the GOP dont make it easy to be convinced that they are not full of racist. But there polices often reflect that they are. The GOP leaders often court the votes of racist, look at Trump, he cant even come out and condemn white nationalist after a fucking murder. Jeff sessions out there increasing the war on drugs, but the war on drugs was made specifically to target minority groups and has shown for the last 40 years that it both severely does impacts minority with a huge swaths of African american people getting caught up in it (we are talking about a ridiculous fraction of blacks in a already ridiculous amount of imprisoned people)
Lets just go over your list here:
Dislike the affordable care act = want people to die
Maybe not want to people to die, but i fail to see how giving tax cuts to rich and healthcare industry's and gutting any help to poor people is going to not cause people to die. Maybe the GOP does not want people to die, but just dont care if they do, not much difference honestly.
Want strong immigrant control = hate brown people
If the GOP wanted to realy tackle immigration they would go after the business that keep hiring them, this dumb wall shit is just smoke and mirrors. It is much better to cause people to hate immigrants, which they have cultivated the last 8+ years.
Oppose affirmative action = hate black people
Well then they go around and say white people are discriminated from, they are literately trying to make discrimination A white people problem...So maybe you dont think you are racist, but when you try and turn the tables around like that, you are being a racist. White people in no way have a race discrimination problem and to believe or pretend otherwise only makes the problem worse and gives power to the white nationalist who now claim that they are being discriminated against (fucking ridiculous)
Want tax cuts = hate poor people
They want tax cuts for the 1% on the backs of poor people who need help, maybe they dont hate them, but not giving a fuck about this is about the same.
How can you have a debate with people who just simply disregard reality? The right is no longer dealing in facts.
That is simply not true, again, how can you deal with people who are believing things that are just simply untrue?
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:28:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Point proven. In your view, I cannot be a rational, intelligent, and non-"hateful" person and hold the above policy views.
spacedoutinspace · 2 points · Posted at 21:29:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I never said any of that, but if i hear a proposal that sounds hateful i am going to call it hateful, if you got a counter argument of why it is not hateful then so be it, make it, but saying "No, i am not hateful by supporting hateful policy's" is not a great argument
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 21:52:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So we are left quibbling over the meaning of "hateful." I do not believe any of those policies are "hateful." They are rational policy choices aimed at increasing productivity, personal wealth, and the security of the country.
spacedoutinspace · 2 points · Posted at 23:27:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Go ahead and show me how those policy's do any of those things.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:42:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Racism is treating people different due to their race. I refuse to do so and abhor any attempts to do so. The notion that "black people can't be racist" is ridiculous propaganda newspeak.
spacedoutinspace · 2 points · Posted at 21:27:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well thats good, but it seemed like a defense with many of the same buzz words as the GOP. If it quacks like a duck and all that...
Healthcare has been fucked up in this country for a very long time. Nobody wants to do the things that needs to be done to fix it, and that is to reign in insurance company's who are doing everything they can to fuck over the american people. The true enemy's are not the party's, but the health industry that is simply out of control. It is not Obama care that is fucking it up, it is the greedy ass healthcare industry.
Obamacare is not state sponsored, it is very much a right wing policy and that is the reason it is failing, it caters to much to the healthcare industry, this includes the mandate and all. Plus, the GOP simply refusing to expand medicare for no reason other then fuck Obama.
I am still waiting for some good ideas, and please dont say open up state borders, that wont work and is just once again catering to the industry.
Seems reasonable, but I am no economist, healthcare is not easy, but very few politicians are even trying.
I dont even know what that means
Yep we are on the same page, but the right just wants to make it worse. But i dont know what they are taking from the poor, you cant take much. Take away food stamps and give it to the middle class? Kick them off insurance so they go back to going to the ER? Here is a idea not to popular for the right, raise the fucking taxes on people who use loophole after loophole because they can afford a tax person to find them.
Taxes are a burden of society, you cannot have a government without taxes. Helping poor people benefits everyone and it hardly cost money, might be better to first cut the military complex first which takes a huge amount of money. Here is the rights reasoning:
1990's: cut welfare for the poor to lower debt;
2000's: Start two very expensive wars that last for decades
If something like this is purposed in the current political environment it will be touted as helping the middle class but will end up hurting everyone but the top.
We are going to split on the role of government here, so i wont go into this because i dont have time.
Yes black people can be racist, but white people have 200 years of beneficial policy's helping the white culture while the reverse is true for minority's.
I seem to remember colleges shutting down protests that are often left protests, so maybe this is more of a generational thing then anything else...anyways, i would like a example of what you are referring to because as it stands now, your statement is rather open ended and impossible to discuss. Also, it is currently the right that is doing everything they can to discredit and shut down protests, not the left...I can give examples if you need them.
Those are private company's, if you don't like what they are doing, plenty of places on the internet to go to...But there is alot of fake shit on the internet, so use some critical thinking.
Well the US is not the UK so this example is moot.
Pretty sure that the current government and corporate power are practically one and the same, this is not a left right issue, this is a to much money in politics issue. What is clear with the GOP running the government is they pretty much want to let corporations do whatever they want and everyone else can go fuck themselves, at least that is what I am taking out of all the policy's the GOP are proposing.
VeryEasilyPersuaded · 3 points · Posted at 19:38:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I agree with you that we need to be able to have open discussion, but how can you then turn around and say the left is authoritarian and expect any meaningful discussion to follow that? Clearly your mind is already made up if you think someone like Bernie is authoritarian.
realty11 · 4 points · Posted at 19:41:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"You know, to just be grossly generalistic, you could put half of disgrutled_lawyer into what I call the basket of disgruntled hypocrisy"
perfectdarktrump · 0 points · Posted at 21:03:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If only she spent this energy on working on her messaging and vision for America.
[deleted] · 6 points · Posted at 19:43:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Me: About half the cookies on this pan are burnt.
You, taking the pan and throwing it out the window: WELL I GUESS I'LL NEVER BE A BAKER AND I'LL JUST SIT ON THE INTERNET AND TELL EVERYBODY YOU CALLED MY COOKIES TRASH BECAUSE YOU THINK I'M TRASH.
Ya know? I kinda see your point, sadly.
[deleted] · -1 points · Posted at 19:51:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That does not even make sense. You are comparing a skill with political viewpoints.
Here is the thing. There were a LOT of people, myself included, you agreed some of Trump's agenda but weren't going to vote for him. That comment elicited a big FU that this segment of the population and drove people to the polls who otherwise would have stayed home.
[deleted] · 7 points · Posted at 20:03:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
To be clear, the order of events were as follows:
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 20:33:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If she wouldn't have said that all these conservative voters would have voted for the liberal candidate!
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 21:06:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 22:23:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
To be fair, if we were to understand Clinton's words in the "general atmosphere" I'd have to weigh her words against quite a bit of hyperbole on all sides, including:
The list goes on.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 22:27:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No dispute that the election was a shit show on all ends.
Asteresck · 2 points · Posted at 20:02:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How about we not make this thread political.
FuffyKitty · 1 points · Posted at 19:15:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Plus they are disrespecting the fact that you were doing something!
DialMMM · 1 points · Posted at 19:47:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Hey idiot, get off the train track!
DonWombRaider · 1 points · Posted at 20:37:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
why this dialog?
perfectdarktrump · 1 points · Posted at 20:49:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
People will never do anything you say, even if they do they do it half assed. So just say
"is this a bad time? You don't mind if you do this thing really quick if it's not too much to ask? I will really appreciate it"
"Yes I do mind I'm busy"
" Oh okay i will just ask your rival to do it and I'll put in a good word for him with the boss. "
"Wait!"
addpulp · 1 points · Posted at 20:54:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Coworker and his team would push work onto everyone else to make their work easier. I tried to make them do it themselves but if other people in my department enable it and don't tell them no, I look like a jerk rather than them realizing they are being unreasonable. One day I answer a question and walk away and he says "where do you think you're going, you aren't done here," and I said "no, you aren't done here, this is your job" and he started screaming so loud that everyone could hear outside of the soundproof editing room, calling me a "piece of shit" over and over.
Yeah, don't expect help, or even me to do my job for you well, in the future.
A week later he apologized and then said "so are you going to apologize?" I hadn't said anything wrong. Fuck self-involved coworkers.
Mariothemaster245 · 822 points · Posted at 15:37:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You IDIOT!
SimplicityWalrus · 318 points · Posted at 17:00:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
DOLT
Kingjosho777 · 159 points · Posted at 17:23:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ya bloody PLUM
theWhyvern · 14 points · Posted at 17:24:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This one.
This one cuts the deepest.
GG.
kyew · 3 points · Posted at 19:14:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I've been called a lot of names in my time but never a plum. That probably would mess up the rest of my day.
SurpriseDragon · 5 points · Posted at 18:08:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ya dingus!
Taxouck · 5 points · Posted at 18:09:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
CLOD!
HMSheets · 2 points · Posted at 19:33:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Baka
Matthew0wns · 2 points · Posted at 19:36:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ya freakin' dingus!
Skerries · 2 points · Posted at 20:02:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
you right LEMON!
krsvbg · 1 points · Posted at 19:31:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You cotton headed ninny muggins!
Lothar_Ecklord · 41 points · Posted at 17:37:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
We are all dolts on this blessed day
waterskier2007 · 28 points · Posted at 17:40:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Speak for yourself
[deleted] · 53 points · Posted at 17:52:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I am all dolts on this blessed day
Smegmarty · 5 points · Posted at 18:59:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
GOOD point
[deleted] · 17 points · Posted at 17:38:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
GOOD point.
[deleted] · 11 points · Posted at 17:53:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
paster says dolts are the fools fig leaf
OhGarraty · 6 points · Posted at 17:22:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
DIPSTICK
I_ASK_WEIRD_QUES · 4 points · Posted at 17:12:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
COLT
Battingduke · 3 points · Posted at 17:58:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
STEVE HOLT!
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 17:36:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
PONCE
MrPokemon · 2 points · Posted at 17:50:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ya DINGUS
radiant_hippo · 2 points · Posted at 18:07:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
CLOD
Akanderson87 · 2 points · Posted at 19:38:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
WHUP TEE DO
deathbear · 1 points · Posted at 17:35:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
SMEG-HEAD
thenate113 · 1 points · Posted at 17:52:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Boom?
Patisfaction · 1 points · Posted at 18:04:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
NINCOMPOOP
CestMoiIci · 1 points · Posted at 18:49:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
WEASEL TURD!
Price_Of_Soap · 1 points · Posted at 18:29:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
DASTARD
Tactically_Fat · 1 points · Posted at 18:56:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
One of my favorite words.
The_Ninja_Cactus · 1 points · Posted at 19:26:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This comment is a perfect example of the Baader-Meinhof phenomenon. That word was actually used in the LA times crossword yesterday
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:28:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Dastard!
420K1nGxXx69 · 1 points · Posted at 19:38:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And the STUPIDITY continues
[deleted] · 5 points · Posted at 17:03:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
DWIGHT!
RainbowSixSWAT · 1 points · Posted at 20:31:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
DWIGHT YOU IGNORANT SLUT
tlw31415 · 5 points · Posted at 17:15:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"Start over." - Darryl Philbin
felonius_thunk · 4 points · Posted at 16:27:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Heard in Chris Jericho's voice
_its_a_SWEATER_ · 2 points · Posted at 17:16:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
These are not them! You've captured their STUNT DOUBLES!
qwenjwenfljnanq · 2 points · Posted at 17:59:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sincerely,
/r/politics
YeOldManWaterfall · 2 points · Posted at 18:14:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
More like "Racist", "Bigot", "Mysoginist", "Libtard" etc, etc
Steak_R_Me · 2 points · Posted at 19:50:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Vote for Pedro!
Shufflebuzz · 1 points · Posted at 17:34:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Jane, you ignorant slut!
The_Axem_Ranger · 1 points · Posted at 18:06:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Stupid idiot!
Changinggirl · 1 points · Posted at 18:38:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
you slag
norsurfit · 1 points · Posted at 19:35:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Hmm...now I agree with you.
OP_IS_A_BASSOON · 1 points · Posted at 20:04:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
MICHAEL!!!
Chokingzombie · 51 points · Posted at 15:40:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If anything, it'll cause them to be more caustic toward you and become even more close minded. I don't understand why people do this.
spartan6222 · 57 points · Posted at 15:41:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
because it feels good to talk down to someone because you "get it" and they just don't
AnOnlineHandle · 3 points · Posted at 18:39:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Eh, or maybe it works. I was a creationist once, I didn't stop because people coddled me and said that's alright buster, leaving me to my ignorance, I stopped because of arguments and having to try to defend it, and realizing that it was fucking stupid like people say.
Similarly, I thought transgender meant transexual until people explained it to me because I was acting like a know-it-all dick saying chairs can't turn into giraffes, rather than thinking that maybe I misunderstood what people were even talking about.
Maybe there's tactful ways to go about it, but challenging somebody is infinitely more useful than leaving them to their stupidity. Maybe not on that day, but it can lead to results, and perhaps sometimes it's for the audience.
spartan6222 · 15 points · Posted at 18:44:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You can challenge somone and their ideas without insulting them and their intellegence.
AnOnlineHandle · -2 points · Posted at 18:48:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Hence why I said that. ^
But I'm thinking about whether what you say is based in actual evidence of what works, versus imagination.
sweetnumb · 1 points · Posted at 19:25:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I wouldn't say it feels good. I find myself doing it when I unfairly blame the person I'm arguing with for all the other arguments I've had about the same topic, and just feel annoyed because I don't feel like I should have to explain things to someone. As if by magic they should know what I said to some other person weeks ago which clearly shows their fallacies.
I hope I'm getting better at this and I try to be patient and contemplate the real possibility that I'm the one who is way off base in the first place. It's really the seeming futility of it all that can get to you.
Anyway, just wanted to say that people don't always do this just because they like to feel superior. I do it out of frustration that I'm not able to explain it better and from thinking about what I perceive to be the very real hurtful consequences of their views. So pretty much even if I AM right, I'm still wrong on at least one level because I'm not even giving them a proper chance to understand my position.
candybomberz · -2 points · Posted at 17:47:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is a results of what I call philosophical thinking, which is how most people think.
I have 1 argument for something that is right, so any argument for the opposite must be wrong.
The problem:
Often both arguments are right and just point you to the fact that the solution is doing both to some degree. The ratio at which you need to do both can be gained through mathematical thinking.
Think of 1 argument as: x = good
the other as: y = good
and the people who came up with both are arguing that they are right.
In reality both might be right and the solution is that x * y = better than good, with some other constraint like x+2y = money that can be spend
Edit: I really don't understand the downvotes.
thehypergod · 7 points · Posted at 18:03:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
wut
candybomberz · 2 points · Posted at 18:15:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
People think they are right, and everyone else is wrong.
Often both people are right. The solution lies in the middle or sometimes the things are even unrelated.
For example both of the following statements are right:
When people earn more money, they can spend more money.
When companies pay higher wages, they can spend less money (on other stuff).
So you can increase the money spend, either by lowering wages or by increasing them. Both increase spendable amount of money, just for different factions, both can boost the economy in some way. If you do either one to the extreme though, you are hurting the economy (or rather lose to someone who strikes a better balance between the two)
null_work · 1 points · Posted at 19:47:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I mean. Sure. I think? But I mean... why not x - y/2 = money that can be saved?
Zer0Doxy · 9 points · Posted at 18:05:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think of it like this: don't be an asshole and then expect me to want to be like you.
[deleted] · 50 points · Posted at 17:26:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[removed]
KneeDeepInTheDead · 17 points · Posted at 18:31:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
i think its too late for that
fredemu · 5 points · Posted at 19:56:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The patients have long since taken over that particular asylum.
Wilhelm_III · -1 points · Posted at 20:35:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You have been banned from /r/politics.
AnOnlineHandle · -14 points · Posted at 18:41:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Get this comment to the people who whine about r/politics right away..
gooderthanhail · -13 points · Posted at 18:39:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't think most of us over there are trying to get anyone to change their minds anymore. Either you see what's in front of you or you don't. At this point, name calling is all we have left.
Yellowdandies · 7 points · Posted at 19:17:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's your problem then, try and see it from both sides
gooderthanhail · 0 points · Posted at 23:09:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Did the North see it from the South's view during the civil war? Did America see it from Nazi Germany's view in WW2? Wake up!!!
Idlemancer · 9 points · Posted at 18:42:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Racist!
Wholesome_Linux · 29 points · Posted at 16:52:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
see: the 2016 us presidential election for real-world application of this
[deleted] · 184 points · Posted at 15:00:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
God but sometimes it just feels good to call an idiot out for what they are.
brilliantlyInsane · 98 points · Posted at 16:07:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But then they just see you as a dick and don't change their mind. It's much better to give reasons and explanation of why something won't work, or to offer an alternative solution. Constructive criticism is much more valuable and useful than an unnecessary insult.
Gadaeus1 · 2 points · Posted at 16:24:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Who said not to give reasons and explanation? I'm not going to insult someone's intelligence until they belligerently ignore facts explained to them with care. It isn't like insults are the first line of attack. Its more of a thing to do when you truly think they are too stupid to be able to learn anything. It is giving up on them. How many times and ways do you have to explain something before it is acceptable to label them a lost cause?
spartan6222 · 26 points · Posted at 16:47:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You can reason without talking down to somone. Starting a conversation with "youre wrong and heres why" in an arrogent tone will get you no farther than just calling them an idiot.
Jimbobblue · 14 points · Posted at 17:35:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"I'm not going to insult someone's intelligence until they belligerently ignore facts explained to them with care"
DJClearmix · 6 points · Posted at 17:23:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
WHY IS IT SO HARD FOR PEOPLE TO ADMIT THEY ARE WRONG?!
null_work · -2 points · Posted at 19:51:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I would insult you for having the reading comprehension of a young child, but I don't believe it would get you to comprehend what you're responding to any better.
TheRedgrinGrumbholdt · 3 points · Posted at 17:55:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You can't reason someone out of something they weren't reasoned into.
1997cutegeek · 6 points · Posted at 18:00:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's still no reason to reach for the ad hominiems. Usually it's reason to shut up and walk away.
null_work · 2 points · Posted at 19:51:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just an FYI, that term is not synonymous with "insult."
[deleted] · 296 points · Posted at 15:34:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I feel like this is what a lot of people believe. When everyone just can't wait to call someone else out, we just get an entire generation of people waiting to call each other out, about anything and everything.
myxomatoaster · 38 points · Posted at 17:15:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't get what the point is of calling people out in echo chambers. So that they can feel good about themselves? Trying to shame someone and insult them on the internet rarely does anything good for anyone.
A_Soporific · 29 points · Posted at 17:29:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's not putting someone down that makes them feel good. It's the congratulations and accolades they get from the people they like and respect that makes them feel good. It changes no minds and raises no meaningful debate, but you got in a zinger and got a pat on the back for it so you're feeling pretty good about it.
And some people do think that the other side consists entirely of idiots and one day they would have an epiphany and join the right (their) side and thank those brave enough to tell them off when they were stuck in the stupid ages.
[deleted] · 9 points · Posted at 17:41:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Bioman312 · 2 points · Posted at 17:50:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
SJW?
[deleted] · 20 points · Posted at 17:51:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
rmphys · 2 points · Posted at 18:13:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I thought "virtue signaling" had an implication that the person disingenuously believes what they are saying, and are ONLY saying it to fit in, not because they believe it, but maybe not.
[deleted] · 6 points · Posted at 18:43:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not really. I mean, it can be, but in my experience, it's more of a "I take pride in how good of a person I am/my involvement in cause. I want other people to recognize me as a good person/to see my passion for cause(even if I don't consciously acknowledge it)". It's a specific kind of image conscious, holier-than-thou, in-your-face kinda lack of any sort of honest humilty in one's public behavior that is so repulsive even to people who agree with your cause or your definition of good person.
Bioman312 · 1 points · Posted at 19:20:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ahhh.
Utkar22 · 4 points · Posted at 17:12:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Stop making unnecessary comments you idiot
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:09:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Stop calling people idiot you dolt!
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 00:48:57 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
And thus Reddit came into being.
Duke-of-Nuke · 1 points · Posted at 06:11:19 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Welcome to 2017 everyone!
AAA1374 · -2 points · Posted at 17:32:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And then the generation after them starts to realize that's not constructive, but still gets shit from the previous generation. Of course, that's a broad generalization, but I genuinely feel like that's the situation right now.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 18:23:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'd say everyone alive is guilty of this, but I find it's more common in young folks than older.
gopms · 51 points · Posted at 16:14:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Which is fine but then you have to be willing to admit that you are doing it because you enjoy putting people down.
[deleted] · -20 points · Posted at 16:17:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah fine but they're idiots ok? And sometimes its just so frustrating speaking to idiots.
[deleted] · 21 points · Posted at 17:12:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But you're never an idiot, right?
Secretmapper · 2 points · Posted at 17:14:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Nope, I most assuredly know that I don't know everything.
But if I talk to a flat earther or a anti-vaxxer, it is incredibly frustrating the mental gymnastics they do that it will take a saint not to just call it out.
[deleted] · -14 points · Posted at 17:15:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I mean it is pretty rare.
[deleted] · 17 points · Posted at 17:19:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If this thread is any indication I don't know that you should be so sure.
[deleted] · -10 points · Posted at 17:21:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Nah I'm usually right about these things. I feel good.
[deleted] · 9 points · Posted at 17:45:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Is this the part where someone should tell you you're an idiot in order to put you down?
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 17:45:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Do it. It'll feel real fuckin good.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:21:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'd prefer not to stoop to your level.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:21:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
lol then you're an idiot.
jrlizardking · 0 points · Posted at 18:37:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But you just did....
junkit33 · 8 points · Posted at 17:25:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And that right there is another answer to the question posed by this thread.
Nothing good ever comes from calling out people for being idiots. Quite the opposite - it emboldens their idiocy, and the long term repercussions of that greatly outweighs the fleeting satisfaction of calling them out.
See the state of politics in the US right now for a perfect example. Everybody just yells at everybody and calls each other an idiot.
null_work · 2 points · Posted at 19:52:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's seems like an unjustified statement.
Interestingly enough, that's been the state of politics indefinitely.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 17:27:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sounds like you might've been called an idiot at one point or another...
junkit33 · 4 points · Posted at 18:08:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Anybody who hasn't been called an idiot at least once in their lives has been sheltered.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:12:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So embrace it I say! Call out the idiots for who they are!
mxzf · 1 points · Posted at 19:40:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A long as you understand that it'll still never do anything except make them cling more firmly to their beliefs and decrease whatever respect for you they might have once had.
puckbeaverton · 9 points · Posted at 16:16:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It feels safe, and that feels good. It feels less safe and good to wonder if they're right.
GamerKey · 1 points · Posted at 17:48:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah did that with flat-earthers. Took less than 5 minutes to arrive at the logical and backed by the entirety of science conclusion that, no, they're not right.
They're just fucking idiots.
puckbeaverton · 2 points · Posted at 17:54:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I have to agree with you on that one.
LinguisticPenguin14 · 1 points · Posted at 18:41:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I guess it depends whether you argue to win, or because you want to change the other person's mind.
mxzf · 1 points · Posted at 19:43:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Define 'win'. If your victory condition in an argument is to get the last word in, the easiest way to 'win' is to lead off with "You're a fucking moron" and turn around and walk away. As long as you get out of earshot before they overcome their surprise at your idiotic behavior, you've "won".
If you're actually trying to make a positive impact in the world as a whole, there's no "winning" arguments in the first place, there's just mutual understanding as the goal.
showyerbewbs · 1 points · Posted at 19:56:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
As adults, we're told to NEVER do that as it might upset team dynamics.
As children, we're taught that behavior is folly by adults in "The Emperors new clothes"
So conflicting.
quidam08 · 1 points · Posted at 18:30:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just use big words to insult their analytical and critical thinking abilities. Or resort to playground insults. Either way. Either way's fine.
SeattleBattles · 1 points · Posted at 18:59:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I spent yesterday yelling insults at a rally of alt-right trump-loving nazi shitheads. I didn't expect to change their minds, it just felt good to get some aggression out.
derpyco · 4 points · Posted at 17:21:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Using reason to try and change the minds of the unreasonable has the same chance of success.
n0b0dya7a11 · 5 points · Posted at 17:45:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's probably going to reinforce it
filled_with_bees · 5 points · Posted at 18:04:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Wasn't there a study that found that it makes people more resistant to changing their mind?
null_work · 1 points · Posted at 19:54:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
People are inherently resistant to changing their minds from the first information they decided was true to such an absurd degree that I can't imagine insulting someone will significantly affect that.
aham42 · 4 points · Posted at 19:47:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The entire progressive movement could stand to learn this.
spartan6222 · 0 points · Posted at 19:52:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
...If you don't think conservatives (and moderates) do it too then you are part of the 90%. PEOPLE do it because it is natural to us, it feels good and it is easier than actually defending your reasoning, and no matter what you think of "those people" every side is still people. All groups bigger than a dozen people or so will have someone who does this.
TitaniumDragon · 7 points · Posted at 17:39:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oftentimes, such approaches are not intended to convince the other person but an audience.
where_aremy_pants · 5 points · Posted at 16:58:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not only that, but you're gonna end up making them hate you even more than they already do if you're a dick about it
null_work · 1 points · Posted at 19:55:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't think most people care if some stranger they came to insult hates them.
Pickled_Kagura · 5 points · Posted at 17:55:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Giving someone the unabridged facts rarely changes their minds anyways.
fredemu · 1 points · Posted at 20:00:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
People don't want facts, they want confirmation of what they already thought.
There are usually facts that go along with whatever viewpoint, as long as you select them carefully enough. Trust me when I say - both sides make the argument "the other side doesn't believe in facts..."
Elongatedappendages · 5 points · Posted at 18:17:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Might not change your mind. It definitely is an effective strategy for some people though, mostly those who are really insecure about their intelligence.
IWriteWithThis · 4 points · Posted at 17:28:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Its changed my mind plenty of times....
HonkersTim · 5 points · Posted at 15:58:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
To extend this, debating anything on the internet will never change anyone's mind.
We still try though, dammit.
spartan6222 · 9 points · Posted at 16:52:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I won't say never. It takes a long time, and reason, but most of all KINDNESS (so on reddit it will basically never happen) but it certainly can happen. It just will never happen if the other person thinks that you precieve yourself as better than them
Durkano · 2 points · Posted at 18:36:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A single person will probably not, but seeing many people calmly arguing their point can be powerful. It has worked on me for a few things.
fredemu · 1 points · Posted at 20:01:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I usually debate on the internet not to change the mind of the person I'm talking to, but to change the mind of anyone else reading along quietly in the background.
thereisonlyoneme · 1 points · Posted at 17:35:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I rarely, if ever, debate someone to change their mind. Shockingly, it's usually on Facebook that I have arguments. In those cases I can at least let others know that someone opposes the idea in the post. Other times I pick apart the logic of the post. Sometimes I just argue for the fun of it.
willmaster123 · 6 points · Posted at 17:01:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This kind of depends, I've said blatantly wrong things on here and had like 4-5 responses calling me a dumbass. If my comment had any sort of truth to it they would at least try to argue, but instead they went right to dumbass. And I looked over my comment and realized it was a pretty dumbass argument.
HugoTRB · 6 points · Posted at 17:41:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Problem is not everyone thinks like you. Many people will get defensive instead.
Feinberg · 3 points · Posted at 19:21:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
As a few other comments have said, people like that probably weren't going to change their minds if confronted with pure reason or kind persuasion, either. In some cases insults and derision are all that will reach a person.
muzakx · 6 points · Posted at 18:21:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
/r/atheism
Feinberg · 0 points · Posted at 19:25:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You'd think that, but you would be wrong. In fact, /r/atheism has changed a lot of minds and reached people who were, by their own admission, thoroughly resistant to pure reason or kind persuasion.
null_work · 2 points · Posted at 20:01:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yea no. Unless a lot has changed there recently, it's largely just an anti-theist circle jerk.
Feinberg · 0 points · Posted at 20:17:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A lot has changed there recently, but even back when it was mostly memes and being trolled constantly it was still changing minds.
Quleki · 2 points · Posted at 18:10:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Corollary to that is asking the question "why." If done properly and with honest intent, you gain understanding. If done improperly, you'll likely insult the the other person's intelligence.
tigerscomeatnight · 2 points · Posted at 18:20:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's your opinion.
/s
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:43:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
More specifically, trying to convince someone with logic when walking over their feelings, will not convince them, most of the time.
null_work · 1 points · Posted at 19:58:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Trying to convince someone with logic will not convince them most of the time either unless they're particularly open to what you're trying to convey, such as extracurricular math clubs and such.
frog_licker · 2 points · Posted at 18:46:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Very rarely are you going to change someone's opinion in an argument.
spartan6222 · 1 points · Posted at 18:46:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Then don't make it an argument
null_work · 1 points · Posted at 20:00:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Lecture instead. Everyone loves being lectured at.
Hypermeme · 2 points · Posted at 18:47:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If my best friend insults my choice, then you bet I'm going to take a step back and reevaluate.
If someone you trusts is vehemently against a choice you make, to the point of ridiculing you about it, then you should probably take a look at what you're doing. People that care about you won't mince words when they feel that you're about to royally mess up.
I think a better saying would be, "don't insult strangers if you want to change their mind."
spartan6222 · 2 points · Posted at 18:51:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes friends can take this route, aquantiances and strangers cannot. A friend can do it becasue they know that you are not against them personally, but when you insult a person, and they dont know you to that level then they get not only more defencive of themselves, but the idea as well
madeInNY · 2 points · Posted at 18:53:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I've had it work. Not as well as constructive criticism. But I'm open to all opinions and use logic and common sense to adjust as appropriate.
Dismissing good advice because you don't like how it's presented or hate the messenger is not a productive way to live.
spartan6222 · 1 points · Posted at 19:02:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You are right, but you can't change other people being that way (unless of course thats what your disagreement is over) but you can change how you do things
Win10cangof--kitself · 2 points · Posted at 19:09:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's so weird seeing this happen on reddit. Often see someone explaining their point of view and then immediately following it up with, The information on this is everywhere, just go find an article on it instead of being so lazy, usually preceded or followed with a bit of shade.
If you cared enough about the subject to comment on it and belittle people over it, then it should take no effort to just put a link to any source you deem to be evidence.
TheManWhoPanders · 2 points · Posted at 19:16:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"Wow, only a stupid person would think that. Now, here's my political opinion that a stupid person like you surely wouldn't understand!"
lasercat_pow · 2 points · Posted at 19:32:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Similarly, trying to persuade someone to change a core belief, such as political leaning or conspiracy, using facts, will only backfire, causing that person to believe the thing more strongly. source. This counter-intuitive fact is known as "the backfire effect", and it explains some of the more bewildering arguments one might encounter online.
spartan6222 · 3 points · Posted at 19:35:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
True, they themselves have to be in a position that they are at least willing to consider change
DiamondHyena · 5 points · Posted at 18:23:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
One of the many great strategies of the brilliant HRC campaign
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:05:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If enough intelligent people were critical of a choice I'd made, I would question it. Because I'm not a stubborn moron.
spartan6222 · 2 points · Posted at 18:11:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And that is correct. But you can be critical of the idea without being critical of the persons reasoning skills.
[deleted] · 5 points · Posted at 18:19:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You can be both though. People just like to write off anyone insulting them as a defence mechanism. 'that person called me a moron therefore im not going to listen to him'
People who make stupid choices are often stupid. It's a key symptom.
Daos_Ex · 3 points · Posted at 19:51:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I disagree with your second point. Plenty of smart people make stupid choices all the time, as no one knows everything.
[deleted] · -2 points · Posted at 19:52:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Of course they do. But more stupid people do - otherwise they wouldnt be stupid
not_a_toaster · 6 points · Posted at 16:53:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is assuming people will accept a constructive argument and change their position based on new evidence. People are way too quick to base their opinions on emotion rather than logic and will dismiss any argument that goes against what they've already decided is the truth.
Also, there are literal Nazis marching around in the streets of America. They're the scum of the earth and their opinions don't deserve to be argued. It's not perpetuating close-mindedness or political separation to call those people idiots, it's the truth.
Vivaladragon · 5 points · Posted at 19:09:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But if you don't discuss with them, then what's the plan then? Insult them? We've already established that that doesn't work. Censorship? Regardless on whether it's right or wrong, I really don't think that would go over well in The U.S. And would have a lot of backlash. Lock em up? Same as the last point. Deport them? Again, even if we completely ignore the morality of that, and even if we find a country tat would accept them (lol), that would be a logistical nightmare. Kill em? Don't really think I even need to touch upon that one.
The way I see it, discussion and debate is the only possible way to eliminate the ideology. Sure, only 1 in every 1,000 of them will actually listen. But 1 in 1,000 is a lot better then the 0 in 1,000 that you get with any other method.
roboticbees · 2 points · Posted at 19:20:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Plus there's so many stories about people who express those ideologies later changing their minds. It's incredibly easy to come up with good arguments against a viewpoint that extreme (and conversely, if you can't come up with a reasonable argument against something you should reexamine your opposition).
1997cutegeek · 7 points · Posted at 18:05:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Perhaps they are idiots, or perhaps they are advancing an agenda that seems beneficial to them. Stupidity or strategy, the bottom line is that spewing hatred only emboldens them. The one thing they can't use against the rest of us is decency.
darwin2500 · 1 points · Posted at 17:29:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No, but it may change the mind of other people listening in to your conversation.
chuckarooni · 1 points · Posted at 17:05:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
YOU FOOL.
TripleOrgasm · 1 points · Posted at 17:06:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Absolutely!!
mikejdoc17 · 1 points · Posted at 17:13:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's never changed mine
shirtlessin1stclass · 1 points · Posted at 17:38:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You Knave!
Dinoflagellates · 1 points · Posted at 17:44:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well, that depends on their self-esteem.
shadowsofme · 1 points · Posted at 17:49:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Or help them understand anything quicker. If you end your explanation in "dumbass," it's just going to piss them off and make them WANT to help you less.
HaveaManhattan · 1 points · Posted at 18:08:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Obviously, you don't know what you're talking about. /s
TemporalLobe · 1 points · Posted at 18:50:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah I don't get why car salespeople do this and think that you're going to give in. The exact nanosecond a salesperson is even slightly insulting or condescending, I already decide that I don't like them and I refuse to deal any further.
spartan6222 · 1 points · Posted at 19:00:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Negging maybe?
Morphie · 1 points · Posted at 18:56:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This happens so much in Overwatch. Let me tell my teammates they're absolute trash, that'll make 'em play better. Although to be fair most insults are due to frustration and emotion and are rarely rational.
dredawg1 · 1 points · Posted at 18:59:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Welcome to Reddit.
diagonali · 1 points · Posted at 18:59:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The problem is that people's perception of an "insult" is extremely dysfunctional and encompasses objective fair feedback.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:13:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And yet - 9 months after Nov 2016...
SklLL3T · 1 points · Posted at 19:15:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You like that you fucking retard?
Honest_Snollygoster · 1 points · Posted at 19:29:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No it isn't. That's such a stupid thing to say. Only an idiot would say such a thing.
master_assclown · 1 points · Posted at 19:30:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I have been saying this for a very long time, but exceedingly more since the events leading up to (and after) the most recent U.S. presidential election. Both sides are busy throwing shade at one another rather than using facts and knowledge to win their respective arguments. No matter what part of the political spectrum you reside, you do not change hearts, minds, or the world by using inflammatory language or name calling. You do so by remaining respectful and having civil discourse. I know recent events have made it more difficult, but it is never impossible. If you do find it impossible to have a civil discussion with someone, be "the bigger man," act like an adult, and walk away from the conversation. Easier said than done, yes, but as I said before; never impossible.
necropants · 1 points · Posted at 19:39:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Apply this to recent events in America...
spartan6222 · 1 points · Posted at 19:42:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I guarantee that at least part of both of those protests were hoping that there would be violence (not death, but some kind of violence) against them to create sympathy for their cause. Both the Alt-right and the Anti-Fa had that in mind I guarantee it.
necropants · 1 points · Posted at 20:59:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yep, I'm certain of it. To me antifa is little better than those who they protest for exactly those reasons.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:41:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's exactly how an idiot would phrase it. /S
zachdog6 · 1 points · Posted at 19:46:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In a similar vein, if you think someone is an idiot then they probably think the same of you. If you "call someone out" for ignoring "obvious facts" then there is usually just as many you aren't seeing that convinced them to see things the way they do.
Don't think you are the obvious right one that is educating a helpless idiot. If you want to change someones mind you have to be open to having yours changed as well.
Solid_Waste · 1 points · Posted at 19:46:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's stupid. You're stupid.
skds1433 · 1 points · Posted at 19:48:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Also it carries a certain weight of irony in itself.
lottie186 · 1 points · Posted at 19:51:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And arguments don't actually change people's minds they only entrench both sides in their opinions.
FappDerpington · 2060 points · Posted at 17:19:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Spatial awareness. Know that, when you're out in public, there are other people around you who need to share that same space with you.
I'm looking at you, middle aged empty nest couple at the grocery store who manage to block 20 feet of aisle together.
theotherhigh · 101 points · Posted at 19:26:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I was a cart pusher for Walmart for a couple years.
Oh my god, people who block the exit/entrance doors to stand their and talk to someone they know who just walked in. Like do they not realize they're blocking everyone else from exiting/entering or do they just not give a shit.... always made me so mad.
DurraSell · 14 points · Posted at 19:59:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yep. Not always out of malice. Oblivious to anything outside of their bubble.
[deleted] · 12 points · Posted at 19:56:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[removed]
makecsr2greatagain · 3 points · Posted at 03:08:13 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
My dad yelled that the other day before attempting to hit my brother in a kayak and tipping over. Sorry no video. If I had one I would so post it.
makecsr2greatagain · 1 points · Posted at 03:06:57 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm a cart pusher at BJs (haha) right now and that pisses me off. Especially when I am trying to maneuver 16 of those heavy things around the 180° corner that some genius engineer decided it was a brilliant idea to put a pole in the middle of. I always genuinely appreciate people who either attempt to inform the person or joke about them to me whether loud or quiet about those people especially if it is rude towards them. You can thank me when I take your cart for you or reciprocate my wishing you a nice day but if you call a person blocking my way an asshole you are truly a good person. Unless said person is disabled mentally or physically. Then you are a very mean person.
ozzie0209 · 40 points · Posted at 17:59:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is my particular pet peeve! I'm from NY and have always been a fast walker. So when others stroll 3-4 abreast in the store or a mall please be kind and keep to the right! Also while I'm thinking of it, how people in grocery stores just ram their carts into you when they come out of an aisle to turn right or left and give you a dirty look while you're going straight. Same is true of drivers in parking lots. I can't count the times my car was almost broadsided when a driver just decided to drive perpendicular to the lanes in the lot! Don't they realize the same rules of driving apply to driving in a parking lot?
[deleted] · 21 points · Posted at 19:34:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
NYC: I've seen 80-year-old grandmas unleash torrents of f-bombs on sidewalk-hogging tourists during the morning work commute rush.
[deleted] · 5 points · Posted at 19:47:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, pet peeve of mine too. I'm very tall, so I always try to be cognizant of being in the way. It's frustrating when others cannot do the same.
[deleted] · 4 points · Posted at 19:58:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
IKnowUThinkSo · 4 points · Posted at 20:10:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is actually something most people don't understand. Most "rules of the road" apply in parking lots, but not all.
Ironamsfeld · 2 points · Posted at 19:13:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Omg I just moved from NYC to the Midwest for school for a few years and this has been the worst. Also ppl are fatter here so your average 4 person family creates a huge obstacle. SMDH
spartan1008 · 11 points · Posted at 19:54:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
i was at costco yesterday and had to literally grab a cart out of this young indian womans hands and move it to the side. She gave me this look, like "how dare you!". I had to explain to her in a voice teetering on explosive rage that you can not stop sideways in front of an isle to text on a sunday in the only costco in queens (one of the five bouroughs of NYC, population 2.335 million)
[deleted] · 8 points · Posted at 18:55:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
also old people who crash into you with their cart, then you step forward a few inches to give them room, and they crash into you again
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:44:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's when you place you heel on that bottom basket bit like a door stopper. If they still do it and they're not just leaning on it for balance assistance, and just being an absentminded dick, kick back when they push forward.
m0c0 · 7 points · Posted at 19:42:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
For sure. Working as a server for years I've always been baffled at the amount of people who stand in high traffic areas i.e. stairs, doorways, walkways, etc.
Being a server makes these people stand out more than anything. The worst is if they recognize that they're in the way but do nothing to solve the problem they're creating. They star at you holding a tray of food or a handful of glasses and have that idiotic look on their face like they're wondering how you're going to get around them.
deadbird17 · 6 points · Posted at 19:36:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Theme parks are the worst. Everyone's awareness IQ drops 40 points. Bastards with a family of 8 stopping to look at a map right in a walkway choke point.
JTP1228 · 5 points · Posted at 19:41:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
These people deserve to be punched in the back of the head, especially when blocking sidewalks walking slow as hell
Gudvangen · 7 points · Posted at 19:53:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Then there are the guys coming from opposite directions who stop their cars in the middle of the street, roll down their driver's side windows and idle there talking to each other.
the_drunken_cook · 6 points · Posted at 20:56:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It seems to be even worse if you're employed at the store. Customers will simply refuse to move to let you get by or will walk directly towards you and not move to avoid collision, because by wearing that apron they just kinda forget you're human.
ghc86 · 6 points · Posted at 19:59:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Try being married to someone who does that. I hate going in public with my wife mostly for this reason. The other reason is I hate leaving the house.
Jpeevo · 4 points · Posted at 20:29:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So many people have no idea what's going on around them, or they don't care. What's so hard about sliding the cart all the way to the right, then standing on the same side of it to look? Then, when you see what you want, walk over and grab it.
If nobody is in the aisle, you can do whatever the eff you want, but at least look to see whether you're blocking anybody.
Great...now I'm angry. Thanks.
Tauposaurus · 4 points · Posted at 19:24:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you are a group coming from the other direction on the sidewalk, I shouldnt have to squeeze myself against a wall waiting for your troop to pass, or jump into the incoming traffic. Pick a side and fucking converge there. You are not VIP convoy. Interrupt your three man wide discussion and let people in the other direction do their thing.
terraformerz · 3 points · Posted at 19:36:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In the same vein
Theirs always that old lady/dude who needs like 7' of clearence to move her cart - You'll be hugging the wall of one isle and a lady with a tiny shopping cart will walk by and be like "EXCUSE ME" like just move your cart through...
Valahiru · 4 points · Posted at 20:08:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I love the grocery store Aldi. Good food for good prices. Small stores though, it's part of how they're cheap. People who shop there are completely oblivious to what's going on around them. It's maddening.
bo_jangled · 3 points · Posted at 19:23:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Right! I'm in the city everyday and I can't tell you how many people just decide to block entire city sidewalks to have a conversation in a group. I just walk through them.
Im_a_god_damn_panda · 3 points · Posted at 19:56:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Everyone does this, thing is that you're not aware yourself when you are doing it, and are aware when others do it.
cryogenisis · 7 points · Posted at 19:23:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A gaggle of stroller mommies on a multi-use path are the worst. It doesn't matter how wide the path is they'll form-up and block the whole damn path.
Bahndoos · 2 points · Posted at 19:59:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Also you, groups of friends and/or family members who occupy the entire width of the sidewalk as they walk along.
685190685190 · 2 points · Posted at 20:00:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Or when people walk super slow in a narrow hallway.
I've got places to be guy.
MaliciousHH · 2 points · Posted at 20:12:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There should be a special place in hell for people who walk slowly and three-abreast in central london
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 20:27:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oh my god, the walking road blocks. I am at the point where i just get up behind them and loudly say 'BEEP BEEP BEEP' until they move the fuck out of the way
master-cunt · 2 points · Posted at 20:54:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I have to constantly remind my nephews (ages 13 and 15) to be aware of their surroundings because they constantly take up too much space, bump into people, etc. It's frustrating sometimes lol
Tramm · 4 points · Posted at 19:17:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It happens at work all the fucking time... they've built 15ft wide hallways to accommodate the amount of people, but there's always that group who just got off or is headed to break and they walk 4 people abreast blocking the entire hallway and my tiny ass frame, which takes up about 1/16 of the space is expected to stop and stand against the wall so they can continue their parade. Every day I swear I'm just going to plow right through the middle of them... But I dont.
null_work · 5 points · Posted at 20:36:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You should.
Tramm · 1 points · Posted at 01:34:00 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I would, if we didn't have a top notch surveillance department and a bored HR department. I'm about to leave the job though... so I just might.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:17:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Came here to say that! I think it's a lack of self-awareness
Scyion · 1 points · Posted at 19:47:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I fucking hate this so much
littlewing52 · 1 points · Posted at 19:50:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This happens on the freeway as well. More than once my kids have had to endure me screaming "Situational awareness, people!" while in traffic.
bccs222 · 1 points · Posted at 19:56:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes, don't stop in a gd doorway or walkway. God that pisses me off.
Naskin · 0 points · Posted at 19:53:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If it's 90% of people, why are you singling out some middle-aged couple stereotype?
runawaywestcoast · 0 points · Posted at 19:34:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Our bad
penguinchem13 · 1294 points · Posted at 15:06:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The definition of a scientific theory.
amadorUSA · 320 points · Posted at 18:19:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's like... Your theory man...
I personally blame economists: so much stuff there should be called "models" or "hypotheses" is called "theories" or "laws" instead.
[deleted] · 29 points · Posted at 19:15:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Solphege · 13 points · Posted at 19:53:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I would disagree, because there is an enormous difference between a scientific theory and an hypothesis that cannot be ignored. A hypothesis = educated speculation/guess based on previous knowledge/data, theory = Hypothesis supported by overwhelming evidence, considered as "truth" until it finally breaks and is revised. Basically, a theory is like a super hypothesis that has seen quite some shit and lived to tell the tale... for now
[deleted] · 13 points · Posted at 19:46:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Scientific theory is something that has been tested and retested with actual evidence to be proven effectively true (ie a fact based on all available knowledge and understanding of the universe)
A layman's "theory" or "conspiracy theory" are pure hypotheticals that are used to justify a specific belief that someone holds that has never been actually tested.
The difference between a "theory" and a scientific Theory (eg evolution) can be differentiated by this example:
You come across ruins of a city thousands of years old how do you determine what caused its destruction?
One "theory" is that the civilisation was evil and a magical being destroyed it. This theory comes from oral tradition and is based on stories told by nomads and traders to their children to moralise and teach them to be obedient.
The second theory is based on scientific based evidence, they find deposits of oil, tar and natural gas underneath, and find evidence of burn marks from those same substances on the stones themselves. Also the area us on a fault line, with evidence of previous earthquakes in the area.
The science based theory in this case would state that it would be likely that an earthquake occurred with natural gas escaping, a lantern breaks, starts a fire and the deposits of tar and oil shoot up like fireballs and rain down from the sky
Which theory is more likely? The one that requires a fantastical explanation, or the scientific one? That is the difference between scientific theories and speculation.
jstenoien · 2 points · Posted at 23:13:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just FYI, you just described the difference between a testable and non-testable hypothesis. Your example had nothing of a scientific theory in it.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 00:57:51 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
The example was intended to show how a scientific theory is developed as opposed to an actual example of a scientific theory.
Alptitude · 4 points · Posted at 19:54:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Actually very little science is tested and retested. There's just no incentive to do replication because it doesn't get you published.
TheawesomeQ · 6 points · Posted at 21:20:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
We're talking the big-hitting theories here - anything most scientists would claim to be a scientific theory has been tested and retested, and failed to be disproven (falsifiability is a major component to scientific theory). A lot of research doesn't get the replication study that it should, that is true. But with the big political topics like global warming, vaccines, etc, plenty of testing has been done.
DrizztDourden951 · 1 points · Posted at 20:28:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
r/badeconomics, itt: r1 material
kingofeggsandwiches · -20 points · Posted at 19:34:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Why would you be irritated by that. Nobody knows what constitutes science really. Different fields have different epistemic standards, different methodological criteria. In many ways science is just what scientists say it is.
Edit: itt: people who think the definition a body of knowledge ranging from string theory to anthropology is obvious.
justtoreplythisshit · 17 points · Posted at 19:48:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Holy shit, no.
TheawesomeQ · 4 points · Posted at 21:22:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You should read some more about the philosophy of science, and of modern science. I think you'll find far less variation in legitimate modern science than you seem to think there is.
kingofeggsandwiches · -1 points · Posted at 23:04:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I know a great deal about the philosophy of science. That's why I said what I did. We have no consensus on the definition of science. We have a host of competing ideas and theories. However different scientific fields are often the best idea of what epistemic criteria are applicable within their body of work, which is why scientist decide what constitutes science. Science has greatly expanded its definition in the last century it's astonishing.
Ninjashot37 · 3 points · Posted at 22:41:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Found the art student.
kingofeggsandwiches · 0 points · Posted at 23:08:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I've studied exactly this question actually. Pretending like science can easily be defined is as idiotic as the people the other poster was bitching about. The definition of science is evolving every day.
Ninjashot37 · 2 points · Posted at 23:56:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You studied a question?
That doesn't actually refute what I said however.
On another note, science is often defined as a methodology for studying the known universe. This is almost always done using the scientific method(with the annoying exception of case studies), which when broken down into its part is simply; * make a control group * trying something * see if it works * write it down * repeat
To note under these definitions everything can be treated as a science, which fits into most scientists viewpoint that science is for everyone, not just those with a degree.
kingofeggsandwiches · 1 points · Posted at 00:15:08 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
No I studied the scientific method itself. The idea of a singular scientific method has been utterly rejected since at least the 1960s. Your "definition" does even get close to defining all the different ways of thinking about "science". Sorry to break the circlejerk, people want science to be obvious because it gives them a sense of surity, but the question "what is science?" Is extremely complex and has literally millions of pages dedicated to it.
Ninjashot37 · 1 points · Posted at 02:44:41 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Source plz?
AtheistKiwi · 15 points · Posted at 19:31:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Economics is like science in that it uses words which have very specific meanings. The reason for that is to avoid ambiguity when communicating ideas with other professionals in that particular field. Bug is an example. In entomology it means an insect with biting/piercing mouth parts. In common language it can mean any small land invertebrate.
The problem comes when people confuse a technical term with the common meaning. The example OP gave is an infamous one where people say "evolution is just a theory".
Now, people can be excused for not being aware of every technical term used in every academic discipline but evolution is the cornerstone of biology (and therefore medicine). It's why we are human and it should be taught to every pupil at high school before the age they are legally allowed to drop out.
And fuck no, it should not be taught along side creation as a competing "theory" in science class rooms. It should be taught as the scientific fact that it is.
NortonFord · 3 points · Posted at 19:38:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When in doubt, blame an economist.
SqueakyKeeten · 8 points · Posted at 19:50:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Can confirm, am economist and get blamed for everything.
My uncle thinks we all have a big meeting to decide how the stock market is going to perform...or something; I actually have no idea what he thinks, just that he thinks I have some influence or insight into stocks of particular companies. I just graduated and am teaching at a university nowhere near any stock exchanges and do nothing directly with any company that sells stocks. My research doesn't even involve stocks. I know nothing about the finances of particular companies.
SqueakyKeeten · 0 points · Posted at 20:00:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
First of all, economists don't have "laws"; that's a luxury that only physical sciences can afford. "Models", "hypotheses", and "theories" are all generically the same thing. In simplest terms, in any discipline (economics or otherwise), a theory/model is just an explanation for observed phenomena. We test our models/theories just like any other field, and we adapt our models/theories with new information.
The real problem with economics is that many people think they understand completely how the economy works (they don't) or that a comprehensive, simple explanation for economic movements exists (it doesn't). What economists do is really try to narrow down on basic relationships that we can test, and then explain with theoretical models through what mechanisms these observed relationships occur. We then test the implications of our models, rinse, and repeat ad infinitum.
We have hundreds of models that do pretty good jobs of explaining the phenomena that they are intended to explain in ways that generally hold up to empirical testing. But, people take an introductory economics course in high school, vaguely remember something about supply and demand and maybe some shifting lines and think that's all there is to our methods or theory.
amadorUSA · 4 points · Posted at 20:16:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes, very interesting, but economists do use pseudoscientific expressions, e.g. law of diminishing returns, efficient market theory, theory of competitive advantage. It's not the language I object to (in Humanities there's a field called "critical theory" and they don't claim it's scientific), it's the pretense that their field is a scientific, accurate description of the world, esp. when trying to push policy. To claim that a model like competitive advantage has a descriptive validity of a scientific theory, which is what the Friedmans and the Mankiws of the U.S. told generation after generation of economists they trained, is disingenuous to say the least, and has had real world damaging consequences for many people in poorer countries.
SqueakyKeeten · 2 points · Posted at 14:49:22 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
But, that's the point I'm trying to make: on many topics, we do have accurate descriptions of the world (at least as far as is testable). The problem is that, like with many sciences, the popular descriptions of our models lack the nuance that they must maintain to remain accurate. The idea of comparative advantage is a mathematical necessity and definitely exists. The problem is that people do not really understand its implications.
Let's just take comparative advantage in international trade as a very simple example. The usual story everyone is told in introductory economics courses is that if there are two people who each have a relative advantage in making two different things, say apples and bananas, then if they trade they can each get more apples and bananas.
In a very basic sense, that is true: international trade does increase the earnings of companies that trade internationally, but is the total amount of earnings (apples/bananas) really what we care about? Generally, no. We care about how many apples and bananas we get to eat as individuals. The idea that international trade is a benefit for individuals assumes that the gains from trade will be evenly distributed in the economy in some way. Otherwise, banana or apple farmers who get out-competed by the farmers (or cheaper production costs) in the foreign country lose out.
So, does that mean international trade is bad because it could destroy jobs? Again, not necessarily. All it means is that, in order to be universally beneficial, some of the gains from international trade should, in some way, be used to help those who were previously making the objects currently being traded for to do something else that is actually productive.
I'm trying to not make this into a wall of text, so I'll stop there. But, the things that economists say are not just musings. Our models are mathematically precise and testable with data. Economists don't "push for policy"; we use our combined expertise to try and get policymakers to recognize economic facts that are almost always overlooked. I think that the fundamental problem arises when people (who are not usually economists) attempt to apply any particular model to a purpose beyond that for which it was designed. I think the best thing that economists can do to help remedy this is to be more clear about when particular models are applicable, even in very basic economics courses, to help students understand that, like any field, there is no grand unifying theory, only small theories sewn together.
TheBattler · 37 points · Posted at 18:17:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I try to use the word "hypothesis" in place of "theory" in everyday speech.
Of course, nobody knows what a hypothesis is, either...
Idlemancer · 32 points · Posted at 18:50:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"Of course, nobody knows what a hypothesis is, either... "
I know this one, its that long side of a triangle!
_Mephostopheles_ · 3 points · Posted at 19:09:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Wish I could get high on pot-nuse.
ApertureMusic · 3 points · Posted at 20:18:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Wish I could eat pie with a hot nurse.
PurplePeckerEater · 4 points · Posted at 19:14:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Wish I could get high on pot-nuse.
kasberg · 1 points · Posted at 19:46:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Hahaha, oh Mr. PurplePeckerEater that's very funny
[deleted] · 11 points · Posted at 19:11:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
kyew · 1 points · Posted at 19:30:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Other sorta scientist here. I care :)
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 19:35:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
kyew · 3 points · Posted at 19:43:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The day no one dismisses evolution because it's "just a theory" will be a great day. Until then the work continues.
kyew · 2 points · Posted at 19:29:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
As long as you know that's not valid. By definition a hypothesis is falsifiable.
TheBattler · 2 points · Posted at 19:32:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oh, huh. Good point...
ReelGorillaJooce · 3 points · Posted at 18:45:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I feel like most people either know roughly what hypothesis means, or are at least able to figure it out from context. The word "hypothetical," is pretty common place too, so I'd be surprised if it was that hard for most people to get.
Burnaby · 1 points · Posted at 19:24:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There are lots of words that mean one thing in a everyday context and something related, but different in an technical context. Like, a lot of people say "a tomato is a fruit", and it is, in a technical context, but not in an everyday context.
spinuptheFTL · 1 points · Posted at 19:40:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I do this too. Glad to see I'm not the only one.
Just trying to help stop the confusion of the colloquial use of the word theory vs the scientific meaning.
Zombreeez · 7 points · Posted at 18:43:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Part of the 90% here... can you expand on this?
int__0x80 · 29 points · Posted at 18:51:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In normal speech, a “theory” is essentially a guess based on a few scattered examples. But in science, the word “theory” actually means “a thing that has been incredibly well tested and substantiated over and over.”
So, for example, the “Theory of Relativity” means “We’re 99.9% certain that this is how relativity works.”
E: for bonus points, it’s worth noting that a “fact” is the lowest (least true) unit of information in science, whereas a “theory” is the highest (most true).
E: Theories are even truer than you might think
atomhunter · 20 points · Posted at 18:55:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Shit 90%? More like 99.9%
Aka "if this is ever proved false shits going to be cray"
_ButtholeConnoisseur · 2 points · Posted at 20:58:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
and the person who proved it wrong just won themselves a nobel.
NuffNuffNuff · 11 points · Posted at 19:06:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It doesn't help that old debunked theories are still called theories. Lamarcian theory of evolution. Phrenology theory.
ythl · 9 points · Posted at 19:04:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Who gets to decide what is a theory and what isn't?
int__0x80 · 22 points · Posted at 19:09:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
As vague as it sounds, basically “the general scientific community.”
Alptitude · 2 points · Posted at 19:57:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is correct. If others are interested some of the best arguments for this definition of science/scientific paradigms comes from Kuhn and Lakatos.
Mayor_of_Vegas · 12 points · Posted at 19:09:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Time and numerous testing and retesting. A theory stands up to many independent testing and retesting; all confirming the initial hypotheses and conclusions. For the most part.
ForgottenPotato · 6 points · Posted at 19:17:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The scientific community agrees on a definition. Researchers submit articles. It gets peer reviewed and published. Other researchers read it and either accept it or reject it in their own work. Over time, a concept may become a scientific theory. It's pretty hard to prove something is universally true so it's a pretty big thing when it happens
WingedLady · 3 points · Posted at 20:02:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No one person. The scientific community as a whole tests and continually adjusts theories over years and years of research. A theory as a whole is highly unlikely to be thrown out, but a tiny aspect of it might be reevaluated based on new evidence.
For example, gravity is a theory. We pretty well think we understand how it works because over years and years of research various scientific groups have refined the theory to its current state. However on the very very big or very very small scales, we have less data and are mostly working with mathematical models and logic (any rogue astro or particle physicists feel free to correct me, I'm just a geologist mostly acquainted with the details of the theories of continental drift and evolution). New data about how matter acts on those scales could change our understanding of gravity, but only for that part of our understanding.
BadSpeiling · 3 points · Posted at 19:12:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well if its just an idea thats unsubstantiated then most people will just call it a hypothesis, only once it has been backed up with reserch will people start to call it a theory and if the general consensus is like 99.999999999999999999999% sure of a theory then people might start refering to the idea as a law
There isnt realy any particular person or group that 'decides' what its called, other than maybe scientific journal publishers who might decide not to publush a hypothesis presented as a theory if the author hasnt got enough proof
OnAKaiserRoll · -3 points · Posted at 19:12:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No one. The whole argument is a farce because that's not how we scientiests use the terms. We use them almost interchangably, but someone at some point decided to add them to the curriculum of science education. That might have been well-meaning but furstratingly now every fedora-wearing internet argument knight thinks they are strictly defined terms that can be used as gotchas to win arguments.
It doesn't matter if something is a hypothesis or a theory or a law or a concept. What matters is how much evidence there is for it, how well it predicts stuff and how well it meshes with other hyptheses/theories/laws/concepts.
de_hatron · 2 points · Posted at 16:40:01 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
We certainly don't. You should really do a bit more reading on philosophy of science.
OnAKaiserRoll · 1 points · Posted at 19:20:53 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Dude I am a bloody postdoc. When I say that scientists don't usually care about the distinction between a hypothesis and a theory I know what I'm talking about.
Besides, if we're going to talk philosophy of science, then I think
PopperKuhn showed rather conclusively that concepts like scientific truth, hypothesis and theory depend strongly on consensus rather than an abstract concept of evidence.Edit: I got my bloody philosophers mixed up...
_Mephostopheles_ · 7 points · Posted at 19:12:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Actually, it's more like "We're pretty much 99.999% sure this is a thing that's happening in some way similar to how our conclusions demonstrate. However, we still have a lot to learn about why and how it happens." Evolution? Happens, but we're still working out all the details. Gravity? Same problem. The Big Bang? Oh yeah, definitely happened, but we don't have a god damn clue why. See what I mean?
MyFingerPointeth · 2 points · Posted at 20:10:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I thought a law was the most true? Elaborate more?
_Mephostopheles_ · 2 points · Posted at 22:42:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
They aren't the same thing. They aren't even really in the same category. Laws are simply universal constants, like the speed of light and the strength of gravity. Theories are explanations backed up by mounds evidence which adhere to the universal constants. So I guess you could say that laws are "more true," but that's way oversimplifying it.
MyFingerPointeth · 1 points · Posted at 00:24:08 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
thank you for this, if you don't mind a follow up question, would it be accurate to say theories are built on a foundation of laws which are built on a foundation of data/facts?
_Mephostopheles_ · 1 points · Posted at 01:32:44 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm not sure. Maybe?
DwLCreed · 1 points · Posted at 19:09:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just want to second that Relativity is WAY more that 90%
int__0x80 · 1 points · Posted at 19:10:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Fixed
BassoProfondo · 1 points · Posted at 19:54:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Theory really says very little about certainty. The Theory of Relativity is very sure; we've not even really worked out how to test String Theory. The problem is that people think 'theory' means 'guess'; it really means something like 'explanation of facts'.
The biggie of course is Evolution. The fact that it's called a theory doesn't mean that it's just a wild guess, as though no-one really has a clue. But then neither does it mean "this is absolutely, definitely true". It just means "this is a reasonable way of explaining what we see", which you then have to weigh up according to the evidence.
yParticle · 0 points · Posted at 19:43:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think a more useful definition is that theory = explanation for how something works. An explanation that might have all sorts of evidence to back it up. Or none.
baking_bad · 7 points · Posted at 19:17:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Scientific laws are descriptions (often mathematical) while scientific theories are explanations.
An example of a scientific law would be Newton's 2nd Law of Motion. This law says that acceleration is proportional to net force and inversely proportional to mass (a=F/m). It describes how an object of some mass would experience a change in velocity related in some way to the size of the force acting on it. No where in Newton's law is the mechanism behind this observation explained. The law only describes the interaction.
An example of a scientific theory might be Plate Techtonic Theory. This theory takes a large collection of observations and evidence (earthquakes, volcanoes, seismic waves, continental shapes, fossil records, etc.) to form an overarching explanation (the Earth's crust is made up of moving plates).
A scientific theory must be supported by available evidence or else modified to fit available evidence. It's not just an educated guess. It is the explanation that fits and takes into account all available evidence and observations.
kyew · 4 points · Posted at 19:37:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Chiming in to back up baking_bad's answer. A "theory" isn't a higher level of trueness over a fact. It's a statement that collects a bunch of facts (which say how something happens) and uses them to explain why something happens.
Take evolution for example, or "the theory of evolution by natural selection." It's the observation of the individual processes that describe inheritance, survival, and mutation and how they combine to create a process that's more elegant than the sum of its parts. But there is no single "evolution" process that can be described by one law.
Kufu1796 · 1 points · Posted at 18:56:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When you and I are talking about theories, we have a bit of evidence here and there. Like for example fam theories on what's that mean in this episode.
Scientific theories are when there's so much proof you cannot ignore it. Evolution is "just a theory", but it has a LOT of proof behind it, that's why it's accepted as fact. Scientists don't like confirming things unless they're absolutely certain of it. Gravitational waves works out perfectly in math, but they're not real until we detect them, and until we do, it's "just a theory".
eraser8 · 8 points · Posted at 19:24:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You're misunderstanding what a theory is.
First, gravity waves aren't theory. They're phenomena predicted by a theory called general relativity.
Second, we have observed them, in 2016, thanks to the LIGO experiment.
Third, after an idea reaches theory status it can't graduate to a higher level of scientific acceptance. The title of theory is the highest honor science can bestow on any idea.
And, despite what a lot of people think, a scientific law is not greater than a scientific theory.
OnAKaiserRoll · 1 points · Posted at 19:15:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There are plenty of scientific theories that don't have such a strong support. For example, there are multiple competing theories about how life on Earth started, all with some evidence for them, but none of it conclusive.
The thing is that you cannot tell if a theory is actually correct just by the label, you have to actually look at the evidence for it.
Kufu1796 · 1 points · Posted at 20:22:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
For stuff like that it's hard to really tell, because it happened so long ago and we can't see into the past. They're multiple theories about how the moon formed, there's evidence for all but nothing conclusive. For evolution, we could see its effects everywhere, that's why it's so widely accepted.
Just_Stalin · 40 points · Posted at 17:18:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's just a theory, a game theory!
Chronibitis · 7 points · Posted at 17:59:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That does seem testable.
AwkwardMunchkin · 7 points · Posted at 18:42:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's just a hypothesis, a game hypothesis!
[deleted] · 8 points · Posted at 18:17:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I love the show... but i still cringe every time he says that.
[deleted] · 10 points · Posted at 19:11:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm fine with the colloquial use of the word "theory" in non-scientific discourse--and Game Theory videos would qualify as being non-scientific, only applying science to gaming to try to explain lore or possible issues without having the ordinary rigor of a true scientific analysis. My only problem is when people discuss scientific theories and then confuse the scientific use of the word with the colloquial use, which is an educational failure more than anything.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 22:05:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Colloquial use of the word theory is what contributes to the confusion of the scientific usage. The fact we have a colloquial usage that is way more common severely hurts the conveying of the scientific definition.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 22:16:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is a fair argument and I completely agree. That being said, I'm not really aware of any other simple words that convey the same meaning that the colloquial usage of "theory" has taken on. "Hypothesis" doesn't exactly roll off the tongue and is more difficult for your average person to remember (again, a limitation of current standards of education). It seems pretty much inevitable that this sort of language change was going to happen.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 22:22:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"My idea" or "what I'm thinking is" are the closest matches that aren't hypothesis.
I agree, hypothesis doesn't roll of the tongue and thats why its never used, even though the colloquial usage of "theory" is almost always a "hypothesis" of sorts.
That's a problem though as we see with debates all of the time, the general public thinks of "theory" in the same way that scientist think of "hypothesis". That is a devastating miscommunication.
Piscesdan · 8 points · Posted at 18:24:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes. So much yes. Seriously it drives me crazy whenever i hear that in debates.
TheThurmanMerman · 2 points · Posted at 18:27:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I was going to say base rate bias, but this is better.
willukm · 1 points · Posted at 19:15:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The post says 90% ...not 99%
mistere213 · 1 points · Posted at 19:20:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Along the same vein, the whole "freedom of speech" thing. It means you can say what you like and not have legal ramifications, but you may very well have life ramifications.
MagicZombieCarpenter · 1 points · Posted at 19:48:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Scientists have discovered that most people will believe whatever you tell them as long as you say it was discovered by scientists.
slavell · 1 points · Posted at 19:49:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"It's just a theory, if it were true they'd call it a law!"
PacManDreaming · 1 points · Posted at 20:30:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's just a guess!
onfire9123 · 1 points · Posted at 20:59:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Or how to apply definitions to reason appropriately.
_shredder · 1 points · Posted at 18:50:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't need to wash my hands, germ theory is just a THEORY.
JohniiMagii · 0 points · Posted at 19:15:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's your opinion. You need to prove it for it to be a fact, like gravity. /s
Edit: it's sarcasm.
HappyLittleRadishes · 1 points · Posted at 20:03:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Gravity is a theory.
84th_legislature · 99 points · Posted at 16:00:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The lights for main thoroughfares in this city are timed largely based on speed limits, so when you speed past me, I will cruise up to you a couple minutes later at a red. You might be a couple cars ahead of me now. If you floor it through every light to pass people and wait for them at the next red, you might in 10-11 lights make it one light ahead of me. Maybe. But the system really isn't designed to reward that kind of behavior, and you're just lowering your mpg and burning through your brakes faster.
CrossFox42 · 25 points · Posted at 17:35:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I always smile and wave at the idiot who rides my ass then breaks off and speeds away only to have me pull up next to them at the traffic light.
introspeck · 7 points · Posted at 22:13:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I used to commute on my bicycle and nothing pissed those people off more than the fact that I was waiting at every red light with them. No matter how fast they went from light to light, my effective pace was identical to theirs.
PaulsRedditUsername · 10 points · Posted at 18:44:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Unless you drive twice the speed limit. If you go 60 in a 30, you will make all the lights!
yParticle · 10 points · Posted at 19:54:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The real math is always in the comments.
xzyragon · 5 points · Posted at 20:37:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Key point being "this city".
For freeway commuters, speeding and "working traffic" makes a difference. Not advocating or opposing it, just stating the facts.
ApertureMusic · 4 points · Posted at 21:32:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I wish the lights in my city was timed for the speed limit. If you are stopped at one light and drive the limit to the next, you will hit another red. Every light, all the way through town.
But, if you go a bit over the limit, you will have green all the way. A little speeding and you are cruising through town instead of stop and go all day.
Lucent · 1 points · Posted at 06:36:27 on August 19, 2017 · (Permalink)
That means they're timed for traffic flowing in the other direction.
Shotgun_Sentinel · 1 points · Posted at 23:05:11 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
The trick is to go 70 in a 50, then you will actually miss traffic lights.
paddygordon · 1 points · Posted at 19:36:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The speed limit in my city recently changed from 30mph to 20mph but the lights are still phasing at 30mph. I don't obey the new speed limit purely because of this.
PositivelyEzra · 1 points · Posted at 21:27:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Most people aren't willing to go the extra mile and get slightly above the speed limit in a short enough time to make that extra light.
Genericandhere · 22866 points · Posted at 14:36:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That even if you let people walk over you, they will still complain you are not flat enough.
[deleted] · 6896 points · Posted at 17:16:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's true. When I started standing up for myself, I was surprised by how people reacted. I recently told my boss that I'm not going to continue working all of the overtime he's been forcing on us. I told him I was taking the next three days off, and he could fire me if he wanted to. I still have my job, and I'm only scheduled for about 40 hours each week now.
CyberneticJim · 3770 points · Posted at 17:32:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
People respect people who respect themselves.
[deleted] · 2787 points · Posted at 17:42:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, I once heard "you teach people how to treat you" somewhere. That had a huge impact on me.
covermeinsand · 563 points · Posted at 17:48:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I say this all the time. If you act like a doormat people will treat you like a doormat.
BankshotMcG · 50 points · Posted at 18:18:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Flip of that is if you're never taught how to actually stand up for yourself, either doormat is all you know or you're the kind of escalatory prick who gets elected president.
Parents, raise strong, kind children.
Gregory_D64 · 8 points · Posted at 19:44:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My buddy who was picked on for a long time finally started standing up for himself. But he didn't know how. So he acted like a rude douche instead.
Luckily he's grown out of that
jarious · 3 points · Posted at 19:00:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you let people treat you like a doormat, don't complain what they smear shit on you...
spinning_around_that · 5 points · Posted at 18:52:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I realized it after interacting with one person online. He treated himself like a shit, called himself miserable, complained that everyone humiliated him, and at the same time he craved for attention and sympathy. I realized: "Wait, if everyone treats you like a shit, why must I treat you different?" Treating him gently while he treated himself like a crap seemed the same way as I must drink dirty water when everyone avoid it, or wearing dirty rugs which no one even want to touch. Day by day, I started really hate him and treat him bad. I realized that I was wrong, and I tried to explain him why I did that, and I hoped he would change his behaviour. I failed. Finally, I had to block him to stop it. I still feel myself guilty, but it was out of my control.
TLDR: There was a person online, who treated himself like a shit and craved sympathy. All I could give him was mocking. I was an asshole, but couldn't help myself.
perfectdarktrump · 3 points · Posted at 20:14:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I got a question, do you like yourself?
spinning_around_that · 2 points · Posted at 20:27:36 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's a good question. I would like to answer 'yes", but not all the time, sometimes I dislike myself.
perfectdarktrump · 2 points · Posted at 19:42:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What if I act like an asshole?
brainiac3397 · 2 points · Posted at 20:34:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I prefer the machiavellian method of appearing like a doormat. It's much more fun to see somebody think you're a doormat and try to treat you like it only to find that the doormat is actually a trap door that drops them into a dark pit of full of angry albino bears that tear them apart.
perfectdarktrump · 2 points · Posted at 21:05:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
They get scared so fast. Sometimes all it takes is a firm handshake.
Poem_for_your_sprog · 3324 points · Posted at 18:05:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You know you're always thinking no,
But saying yes instead -
You second guess,
you to and fro,
You toss and turn in bed.
You hate the choice you always make,
And curse the you before -
For when you give them more to take,
They always look for more.
You dream of all the words you'd say,
But know, unless you do -
You'll never be another way.
Be brave.
Stand up for you.
theonlyredditaccount · 193 points · Posted at 18:14:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
r/wholesomesprog
EDIT: whoops I inspired a subreddit.
MacDerfus · 12 points · Posted at 19:15:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm guessing Timmy doesn't fucking die in that sub
theonlyredditaccount · 3 points · Posted at 03:30:29 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I should have called it r/timmyfuckinglives
deactivate_your_mind · 1 points · Posted at 20:20:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You beat me to it.
Thats-WhatShe-Said_ · 3 points · Posted at 20:14:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Even his filthy ones are wholesome by virtue of him being a Poet-God
Neofang64 · 22 points · Posted at 18:17:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Early for a Sprog poem and it gave me valuable life lessons?
We're reaching critical levels of Great Value.
[deleted] · 204 points · Posted at 18:11:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This fuckin' hits home. Thanks, sprog
PERMANENTLY__BANNED · 43 points · Posted at 18:16:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I love how you show up in random places like a hooker.
xen0blade · 21 points · Posted at 18:34:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A wholesome hooker.
EDIT: A whooker.
iDoUFC · 3 points · Posted at 18:49:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I thought hookers usually frequent specific corners! Maybe I'm doing it wrong.
Edit* spelling
__scruffycat__ · 9 points · Posted at 18:10:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Tx Sprog
mikkylock · 5 points · Posted at 18:19:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Thanks Sprog. I needed to read this today.
FreedomFries55 · 5 points · Posted at 18:26:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just fapped before reading this. This poem was better.
asbelowsoabove · 5 points · Posted at 18:34:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The internet is full of other people's words over other people's pictures so here this is. http://imgur.com/4BLc5q6 made it for a simple background for inspiration. I've always struggled with this and really self-worth in general. So thank you.
*edit With credit in picture
nickthefish17 · 7 points · Posted at 18:23:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is such a fresh comment, I love seeing your posts in the wild.
ShapesSong · 5 points · Posted at 18:30:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There's nothing better you can do, Than to speak up for your right But real pleasure is when you Find a sprog poem in the wild
asbelowsoabove · 3 points · Posted at 18:34:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The internet is full of other people's words over other people's pictures so here this is. http://imgur.com/4BLc5q6 made it for a simple background for inspiration. I've always struggled with this and really self-worth in general. So thank you.
dragn99 · 2 points · Posted at 18:55:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Maybe put Sprog's username in there?
Proc_Prof · 3 points · Posted at 18:37:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Good bot
501SolR · 3 points · Posted at 18:55:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Fuckin hell dude
trenthamm · 3 points · Posted at 19:45:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Release a book of your best poetry. I'd buy it.
shaggorama · 2 points · Posted at 18:28:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You need to turn this into a motivational poster or something
CitizenCaecus · 2 points · Posted at 18:29:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This needs to be the /r/GetMotivated anthem.
Edianultra · 2 points · Posted at 18:29:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Somebody give this guy some gold! I lost my Reddit silver bank account but it's there in spirit.
Aardvark122 · 2 points · Posted at 18:35:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Are you being more active of late? I love it! Always great to see your work.
WomanOfEld · 2 points · Posted at 18:37:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You're right.
It's time. <3 thanks sprog.
deeplydelirious · 2 points · Posted at 18:48:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Thank you, Sprog. <3 Made me tear up a little.
isshebait · 2 points · Posted at 18:49:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I always read your stuff as one of the singing bits in Monty Python, are you British perchance?
OonaghFaerieQueen · 2 points · Posted at 18:49:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is really great. I love it!
amazingoomoo · 2 points · Posted at 18:53:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is beautiful thank you for sharing. I really like it. Did you write it?
pataglop · 2 points · Posted at 19:02:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Another excellent one.
Thank you Sprog
yolibobchris · 2 points · Posted at 19:03:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Booytyfyoule
ScrotiJuanTubeTis · 2 points · Posted at 19:03:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You're the best
Heliosvector · 2 points · Posted at 19:12:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Is there any sprog post that doesnt get gilded?
cowboydirtydan · 2 points · Posted at 19:12:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Gilded in one hour. Wow.
MrAcurite · 2 points · Posted at 19:13:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oh but for the grace of Sprog go I
Stop_Sign · 2 points · Posted at 19:17:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Spoken cause why not
nhulz · 2 points · Posted at 19:22:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You've been on a roll lately.
ThePopeDoesUSA · 2 points · Posted at 19:24:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
/u/Poem_for_your_sprog could retire in Reddit gold
ejeebs · 2 points · Posted at 19:27:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I couldn't help but read this to a beat.
icrine · 2 points · Posted at 19:43:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Damn...
SlimDirtyDizzy · 2 points · Posted at 19:45:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
God damn Sprog. Speaking the hard truths.
skeddles · 2 points · Posted at 19:50:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What's a sprog
guinness_blaine · 2 points · Posted at 20:00:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Man, this is one that should be framed on the wall of classrooms.
Subpar_hero · 2 points · Posted at 20:30:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sums up what I deal with working customer service for a major food delivery service who may have just bought yelp.. dam people wanting a full refund for not getting free silverware.. go die in a hole
Nemo_K · 2 points · Posted at 20:47:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Are you god?
I-Love-Patches · 2 points · Posted at 20:55:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
LOVE You!
thisishowistroll · 2 points · Posted at 06:45:53 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Damn man, that one is touching.
NoFapMat · 2 points · Posted at 18:20:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Wow... only 14 minutes ago... must say something clever for the sweet karma...
Brain: Durp...
omegakill · 1 points · Posted at 18:21:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Always awesome!
ButterThatBacon · 1 points · Posted at 18:26:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Fuckin A right
Saerehrys · 1 points · Posted at 18:27:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That is really lovely.
TheShadowKick · 1 points · Posted at 18:28:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That was beautiful.
Maruset · 1 points · Posted at 19:14:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No dead Timmy? 7/5 worst ever
calliope_clamors · 1 points · Posted at 18:20:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
13 minutes ago!? It's so new!
whyteanton · 1 points · Posted at 18:38:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ugh
kittenburrito · 1 points · Posted at 18:26:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Only 19 minutes ago? That's the freshest sprog I've ever seen! :D Not to mention, I actually felt the need to save this one, and I may even print it out, because Lord knows I should get better at standing up for myself...
nitrodog96 · 1 points · Posted at 18:32:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Finding a Sprog poem in the wild is always a great occurrence, and this is no different. Very inspirational and excellently written as always!
gentlemanidiot · 1 points · Posted at 18:35:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
if i wasn't broke i'd gild you for this. this made my day, thank you sprog.
WetStoolsAreSlippery · 1 points · Posted at 18:58:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Best sprog poem
Chluster · 1 points · Posted at 19:26:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
:')
Kriixuz · 1 points · Posted at 19:29:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Username checks out!
UninvitedGhost · 1 points · Posted at 19:53:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I like the meter you used here. You tend to overuse some specific ones. The formatting of the lines also different than usual. This was a refreshingly different poem from you!
JerseyCobra · 0 points · Posted at 18:25:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A fresh Sprog! And a poem that applies to me. Today I am doubly fortunate.
dashboardrage · 0 points · Posted at 18:30:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Earliest I've been here for your post wooo!
[deleted] · -1 points · Posted at 18:33:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
We should listen to this guy
He makes a lot of sense
If you want to drown in upvotes
Pander to your audience
pigi5 · 3 points · Posted at 18:41:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Rhythm went haywire on that last line.
CaptainObvious1906 · 2 points · Posted at 18:56:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
poetry is hard
PaulsRedditUsername · -1 points · Posted at 18:27:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
FTFY
will_wolfy · -1 points · Posted at 18:32:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Passive/Aggressive
[deleted] · -1 points · Posted at 18:42:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Can I stand up for less spam?
raymondromero · 7 points · Posted at 17:58:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
also, "you deserve what you tolerate"
occasional_commenter · 7 points · Posted at 17:54:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Wow.. I think this is just an impact on me.
shaggorama · 6 points · Posted at 18:29:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Me too. To bad I'm going to completely forget about this in an hour.
LUSTY_BALLSACK · 2 points · Posted at 19:55:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
ADD FTW
shaggorama · 2 points · Posted at 21:04:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
real talk
Huntrixftw · 4 points · Posted at 17:57:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The reason why lot of nice teachers aren't respected
shaggorama · 1 points · Posted at 18:32:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The problem is when teachers put too much of their energy trying to be their students' friend. I'm not saying teachers can't also be friends with their students, but when you're teaching: that's simply not the hat you're wearing, and your students opinion of you as a "nice person" should not factor into your teaching style. If a (good) teacher is "being shitty" to a student, it's not because they're a shitty person or teacher, it's because the student is failing in their role as a student. If the student doesn't like the consequences of their actions, that's their problem, not the teacher's.
strugglebutt · 4 points · Posted at 18:15:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Had to learn this with my family. Obviously I had no control over it when I was a kid, which made it all the harder as an adult. But now I stand up for myself and my beliefs and even though it makes things a lot more uncomfortable, I at least respect myself. They're going to treat me like shit either way, I might as well feel better about myself in the midst of it. I'm no longer meek about it, and it doesn't bother me as much when they say mean stuff about me, because I no longer think I have to just "take it."
[deleted] · 7 points · Posted at 17:45:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Thesexedteacher · 9 points · Posted at 17:54:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
More like dirty fart smella lol
cdnball · 6 points · Posted at 17:57:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you appreciate your own farts, other people are more likely to appreciate them too.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:15:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Honestly, I used to walk all over my old boss. All of my coworkers needed hours, had shit schedules, hated their job. I worked hard, chose my hours and never came in on days I didn't want to. Was offered to move up the ladder, but didn't want to stay there and left to go to school instead. I was also the only one allowed to eat the expensive stuff.
Somehow I maintained a great relationship with all of my coworkers, if you needed help I was the first one there, but you damn well better have my back too, unless you have a good excuse.
internet_friends · 2 points · Posted at 18:48:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There's this cheesy sign near my house that changes all the time. This week's cheesy quote is, "A person teaches you how to treat them. What do you teach others?" Really been mulling that one over ever since
pornoflickbitches · 2 points · Posted at 19:08:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I will never forget this. Thank you.
canihavemymoneyback · 2 points · Posted at 20:53:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You're damn right. I live by this motto. This applies to jobs, relationships, friendships, and everyday socializing. People will go as far as allowed. They know, oh boy do they know the line. Some will look you in the eyes while stepping over that line, that's when you need to show your backbone. You only have to do it once. But if you allow yourself to be treated poorly, you have to endure shit on the daily. Fuck that!
Andrastestitz · 1 points · Posted at 18:03:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The American Dad episode with the dance off and the whales I think.
raj96 · 1 points · Posted at 18:19:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
you just taught me how i should be teaching people to treat me
Isord · 1 points · Posted at 18:20:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I can see this is true even in how I treat other people. I don't think it's even malicious it's just if I need a favor I'll ask the people that in the past have been the most willing to help. I think I tend to be one of those people for OTHER people so I guess I shouldn't feel too bad but I do sometimes wonder how people view it coming from me.
quernika · 1 points · Posted at 18:37:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Unfortunately, this does not work with 14 year olds. Try being a teacher, and test this theory lol
IveAlreadyWon · 1 points · Posted at 18:40:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sadly, this is why children who are abused at home are more likely to be bullied in school. They lack self confidence much of the time, and other kids pick up on it.
GENJA_EYEBROWS · 1 points · Posted at 18:45:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How this is not teached in school I will never understand.
rattgurl90 · 1 points · Posted at 19:23:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yup, "What you put up with is what you stand for."
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:26:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I was talking to someone once about their job and they seemed pretty content with their co-workers (this person being important in the workplace but also holding a regular position). I said something to the effect of "Everybody's pretty nice to you there" and his response was "Of course. I wouldn't allow myself to be treated otherwise".
I didn't realize before that point that a person could actively refuse to be disrespected, and do so without being an absolute jerk.
joustishere · 1 points · Posted at 19:49:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I heard this as well. Something like "most of life is you teaching others how to treat you."
westernpygmychild · 1 points · Posted at 22:49:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Man I always hated that because I don't know how to do it. It's too vague....
LachlantehGreat · 6 points · Posted at 17:37:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Truer words have never been spoken.
TreatmentForYourRash · 7 points · Posted at 17:53:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Recently I started to put myself first. My quality of life and general happiness has improved thousand-fold because I've started respecting myself.
Danarky · 4 points · Posted at 17:57:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Some people do. Some people hate it when you respect yourself because that somehow offends their own well being.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 18:19:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's when you learn that a lot of the friends you had when you didn't respect yourself only liked you because of that fact, because they don't respect themselves either.
Fuck those people. They're losers.
Danarky · 2 points · Posted at 18:57:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Truth.
perfectdarktrump · 1 points · Posted at 20:17:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think they hate those who respect themselves unduly. If they see someone less than them, in status.
Kraydems · 3 points · Posted at 17:46:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Real recodnise real
MaxDG1013 · 3 points · Posted at 18:12:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There are people who don't respect that, but no one shoud want to work for those people anyway.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:22:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Also, bullies like to get bullied.
That boss sounded like a bit of a bully. They have some kind of respect or admiration or something when someone does it back to them. It is the oddest thing.
edit: It probably makes them really uncomfortable, since it reminds them of when they got bullied and where they learned it from -- their parents.
Vio_ · 2 points · Posted at 18:39:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"Don't be an asshole, don't be a victim."
perfectdarktrump · 1 points · Posted at 19:41:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Which is it?
Vio_ · 2 points · Posted at 19:56:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Both. Don't take advantage of other people, but don't let them walk all over you either.
perfectdarktrump · 1 points · Posted at 20:44:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's hard to lay down the law without looking like an asshole. I think I should just be a nice asshole.
Thatguy_Koop · 1 points · Posted at 18:05:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
except armed robbers.
KeenanAllnIvryWayans · 1 points · Posted at 18:08:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That and in /u/Hyliangains case. He/she is also very tough to replace. If you bring something of value of to the table, then keep that in mind.
jgodin03 · 1 points · Posted at 18:14:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Nobody will respect you more than yourself.
otherdaniel · 1 points · Posted at 18:27:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
yeah but this teeter totters with, don't be an over-pompous dickhead
y_u_no_smarter · 1 points · Posted at 18:59:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"A man can't ride your back unless it's bent." -MLK Jr.
Dragons_Advocate · 1 points · Posted at 19:24:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Previously on Reddit: "The problem with respect is some people use it to say "recognize me as an authority," and others use it to say "you are my equal"."
moncrey · 1 points · Posted at 19:27:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
this is exactly why i nail job interviews when i have them. I dont suck up. I tell it straight about what i do and what i need and i dont butter them up or beg.
The_Internet_Dood · 1 points · Posted at 19:39:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Or maybe his boss didn't know he felt that way. And once he communicated his displeasure, his boss understood the situation and gave him the schedule he desired. ...sorry for the pronoun disaster.
Gemsofwisdom · 1 points · Posted at 19:46:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not always some people have no respect for anything or anyone.
drunkai · 196 points · Posted at 17:25:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That is awesome! Good work man!
puterTDI · 9 points · Posted at 17:42:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I did something similar and ended up getting a couple promotions and pay raises. Basically said that I'd been working above my position for quite a while and doing OT to take on additional stuff the team needed. Was told OT isn't expected or rewarded (even though I'd been told they needed me to keep doing the work). Told them I wouldn't be working any OT and made it clear I was unhappy with the pay situation. Got two promotions and doubled my pay over the course of about 2 years with the first large raise being months after.
Also once had my pay raise docked when I refused to work OT on the grounds that it wouldn't recover the project because they were still mismanaging it. They knocked my raise down by .5% and told me. I told them it was worth it. Couple years later they had another mismanaged project and made the OT optional and paid 2x people's salary for the extra hours they worked (I chose not to take part).
TheDreadPirateBikke · 4 points · Posted at 19:16:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This isn't the time to stick up for yourself. This is the time to move on from that company.
puterTDI · 3 points · Posted at 19:23:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
it was an issue with that one manager that I worked out (to some degree). There are other benefits to working at my current company...and like I said I have not worked any overtime in years now.
If I stay late, I leave early another day. Simple as that and not one manager has questioned it. I made it clear what my limits are and they respect them.
TheDreadPirateBikke · 1 points · Posted at 19:47:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That staying late and then leaving early is pretty common. Them knocking you down .5% for not wanting to work OT is generally not acceptable.
Mahadragon · 9 points · Posted at 18:08:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Your reply made me immediately think of Peter from Office Space: "Yea, I really don't like my job, so, I'm just not gonna go anymore."
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 18:11:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I had actually been thinking about that scene for a week before I did it. Lol. I love that movie.
Aleforge · 8 points · Posted at 18:42:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just a warning to others, that isn't always the case. As soon as you stand up to my boss at my work it's adios.
duelingdelbene · 1 points · Posted at 19:06:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think it would depend on how replaceable you are. If you're in a shitty minimum wage job, yeah you're likely out, but if you're in a salaried position, confidence and negotiation can go a long way. Still gotta be careful though and make sure you're actually in a position to negotiate.
Aleforge · 2 points · Posted at 19:25:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I agree with that, personal experience says no one is safe however.
Even when your being counted on and not very replaceable. Although my industry is full of egotistical crazies.
Meghalomaniaac · 18 points · Posted at 17:43:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"Only" 40 hours a week, Jesus.
[deleted] · 8 points · Posted at 17:48:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, I quit EMS because I was working 80+ each week. I don't understand why employers think that's ok.
Dr-NguyenVanPhuoc · 6 points · Posted at 18:20:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
all that sweet cash. overtime here is compensated with +50% bonus. weekends, nightshifts, etc get additional bonus on top of that. sure, it's hard, but you can always wipe away your tears with a pile of money
Seringol · 6 points · Posted at 18:39:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not everyone gets +50% for overtime. Straight pay at 40+hrs week is bullshit
Dr-NguyenVanPhuoc · 2 points · Posted at 18:55:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
yeah but if your contract says 40hrs/week, you can't be expected to work 80+ without additional pay
gimpwiz · 1 points · Posted at 19:11:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I just realized that many states don't mandate time-and-a-half. What the fuck guys
Seringol · 2 points · Posted at 19:55:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Most do, but there are loopholes. My industry ( was, done ) considered tourism.
Because the place is not open year round, they arent required to pay time and a half.
Employees that work year round but not salary? No overtime pay
ttubravesrock · 3 points · Posted at 18:41:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I love my job. I work construction in Alaska. In the winter (office work + training) we work 37.5 (or fewer) hours per week. In the summer (construction season) we work 60+ hours per week with 1.5x pay for every hour over 37.5. This past week I just worked 92.5 hours, so I'm looking forward to that paycheck. It's also a remote job where I'm getting per diem and living in a camper. There's no real benefit to working short hours when you aren't going home at night.
Dr-NguyenVanPhuoc · 3 points · Posted at 18:54:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
i'd love to do that. amazing pay and you actually get to save that money simply because 1) you work all day long 2) you're living in a remote place. do that for a few years and buy a house or something. very good for making bank but nothing i'd want to do for decades to be honest
TheDreadPirateBikke · 1 points · Posted at 19:19:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't know. I've heard that the people who work oil rigs in the ocean (great money but nothing to do) just gamble with each other, then come back to shore and blow all the money.
ttubravesrock · 2 points · Posted at 21:29:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I just work hard and save the money, but there are people like that.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:05:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The money's not worth it if you never have the time to spend it.
Fozefy · 3 points · Posted at 18:01:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And then I'm sure they need to work everyone work 82h+ to make up for your leaving....funny how that works.
keanex · 1 points · Posted at 19:49:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Call me crazy but I don't mind working 40-50 hours a week.
Meghalomaniaac · 1 points · Posted at 20:23:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Maybe you don't mind it, but 40-50 hours is a lot of your time. My point still stands: to say you're "only" working a full-time position's worth of hours says a lot.
[deleted] · 28 points · Posted at 17:41:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Auroryl · 2 points · Posted at 17:52:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Will you one day collect all your poems from Reddit, including their previous post for context, and publish a book? If so I am interested!!
TreatmentForYourRash · 2 points · Posted at 17:54:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I stood up and applauded. Well done, Sprog.
[deleted] · 6 points · Posted at 17:48:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Backwater_Buccaneer · 4 points · Posted at 18:12:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How much work there is to do relative to how many employees are available to do it is management's problem, not the employees'. That's what management is.
HILL_AREAS_CURLY · 4 points · Posted at 18:25:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When I started standing up for myself all I got was getting called a bitch.
perfectdarktrump · 2 points · Posted at 20:12:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Own it. Don't fear the label if you have to. Stand up for yourself but graciously to offset the label.
K3wp · 7 points · Posted at 18:01:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I've said this a couple time in my career, to management (I work in IT).
Me: "Am I fired?"
Boss: "No."
Me: "Ok, then shut up. Either fire me or fuck off. You don't pay me enough to yell at me."
Surprising how well that works!
[deleted] · 7 points · Posted at 18:02:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, my words were "I'll be back Monday. Fire me if you want. I'm not sacrificing my health for your profits."
K3wp · 6 points · Posted at 18:13:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's a sensitive subject for me personally because I've worked in a couple shops (in the early 2000's) that were working us 70-80 hours a week. Until we got laid off.
Fuck that Noise. Never again.
Donttakethebait111 · 3 points · Posted at 17:45:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I too started standing up for myself, I realized that the worst workers at my company just got special treatment instead of being fired, I worked twice as hard as some people and the thanks I get? nothing but more work to do.
Been working my ass off for this dead end job for too long, so I just stoped caring, I put in the minimal effort and spend the remaining effort on finding a way out of there instead.
We get so little time to to a proper job, basically no one manages their job description, I used to get anxiety over it, because our customers are nice people and deserve better, but I simply cannot take that on. It's not my fault we practically have 7.5 hours to do 10 hour of work every day. Unless you are one of old timers who can't keep up and then you get a sweet gig.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 18:35:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I used to talk back a lot, stand up for myself, but one incident left me scared of doing that. I stood up for myself and got punched in the face. Now I'm just apathetic to situations. I believe people are total shit heads and I really dont want to get punched again for standing up for myself.
Asteresck · 1 points · Posted at 19:50:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you actually got hit, I would say it's about time to start learning how to defend yourself. A lot of cities, or even towns, really, have at least one martial arts club there. Boxing, karate, or some other martial art, if you get hit you have full rights to hit back, and harder.
I think a lot of people don't stand up for themselves for fear of starting shit. I'd rather be a troublemaker and get hit than a doormat.
But that's just me.
writtenrhythm · 3 points · Posted at 19:22:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My boss sent a group text about a meeting off hours tomorrow. He said if you didn't make it you would be written up. I went through all of my texts and I received no notice for this meeting. I'm not dropping my plans for less than 24 hours notice, especially because I was going to go out to dinner with a friend who's leaving for college in two days.
TheGentleman100 · 6 points · Posted at 17:25:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Nice 👌
airbreather02 · 2 points · Posted at 17:47:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Fuckin' A
Goosebump007 · 2 points · Posted at 17:53:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I got fired from a car dealership for complaining to management to many times about their delivery vehicles being death on wheels. Half the mirrors are missing, the vehicles run like absolute shit, like the vans stale all the fucking time and I'm usually on highways which can be very dangerous to stale out on. usually gotta fuck with the battery because the vehicles were in such shitty shape. But it's a fucking dealership! Why won't they fix their vans for employees? Why make the job dangerous to save a couple bills when your a multi million dollar owner of 4 car dealerships in the area. I asked around after awhile and found out everyone hates the owner because he does this with everything. Apparently all the computers everyone uses (except his) is rundown and old as fuck. But who gives a fuck about the employees? Car dealerships are some of the worst places to work. Well atleast this one and his others.
JC84909 · 2 points · Posted at 18:06:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This! I did the same thing as of the beginning of the year. My team was reduced to just me due to my co workers leaving due to all the BS and well it piled onto me. Luckily being the only person left in the team gave my some bargaining room to stand up and say nope not doing it, I'm 1 person. There was still pushback but I held firm. Things aren't so bad now
McBonderson · 2 points · Posted at 18:29:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
At my old job I had been working 60 hours a week for the last year and a half because my manager needed somebody to cover another shift "temporarily" until he could hire somebody else. I didn't really want to do this but was helping them out.
When I accidentally let my cpr certification expire for a few days a more senior manager called me into his office and chewed me out. I was apologeticat first because it was my fault I got my dates mixed up. But then he started acting like they were doing me this huge favor by "letting" me work overtime every weekend and that they wouldnt be allowing me to work extra until I got it fixed.
I smiled and said "I'm truly sorry for letting the cert expire and I will fix it asap but you guys have been promising me you would find somebody else to cover those shifts for over a year. I would LOVE it if I didn't have to work weekends anymore".
He just looked at me sighed and said "just get your certification renewed."
Strawberrycocoa · 2 points · Posted at 18:32:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I feel like I needed to do this with my ex-girlfriend. We lived an hour and a half apart but near the end of the relationship I was always the one driving to her for date nights because she would be "too tired" to come see me. Or I get there and she wants to lay in bed and "cuddle" while she wakes up.
She worked overnight shifts and heavy amounts of overtime so I was trying to be understanding about it, but there's gotta be a limit on how much you can pull that shit, you know?
One_Man_Two_Shadows · 2 points · Posted at 18:37:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
To add a little tidbit, when they react angrily it is not cause you stood up for yourself, its because they were denied walking over you. That helped me a lot when trying to not feel guilty after.
omgFWTbear · 2 points · Posted at 18:41:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Years ago "they" called off all leave for a month due to finance whining about it being unfair they had to crunch during fiscal year close out month, so to appease them, all departments were made to suffer the same.
I'd preapproved my leave 4 months in advance, and after a very convincing talking to informing me I would be fired; I packed up my desk and left my corporate stuff on my manager's desk. I said, "Do me a favor and call me before I drive in on the following Monday, let me know if I have a job or should stay home."
When I came to work after my leave is the only time in six years that no one asked me how my weekend was. My stuff was on my desk, and even senior leadership acted like I'd hopped into a time machine skipping me forward a week and would seek out and eat any who spoke of it.
Truly, the most bizarre professional experience I've ever had. I stayed for a year or two after that.
HylianWarrior · 2 points · Posted at 18:55:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Nice to see a friendly username
Justagreewithme · 2 points · Posted at 19:19:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Haha, yup. I once had a boss try to cancel my 3 week vacation the day before it started. I said "I'm going on vacation, and I'll be back in three weeks. If you want to fire me when I get back, go ahead." Still had my job.
twiddlingbits · 7 points · Posted at 17:36:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
you must have some key skills or abilities as most places would replace you ASAP. They still may do that. If you are in IT there is an H1B who will take the job for less pay and never complain about the OT.
bluespirit442 · 9 points · Posted at 17:43:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There is much more in play most of the time than that. The cost/benefits balance weight tons of things we don't even suspect most of the time.
OccasionallyClueless · 6 points · Posted at 18:05:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Even if there is someone ready to take your job the moment you are out, it's still a tough blow to lose an employee like that. It will take months to bring a new hire up to speed. Longer to be as good as the old employee.
twiddlingbits · 1 points · Posted at 20:14:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
like what? OP never said what his irreplacable skill was..
OccasionallyClueless · 2 points · Posted at 20:28:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm saying it doesn't have to a irreplaceable skill. It just has to be enough of a hassle to replace. If they are forcing a bunch of OT in order to meet a project deadline (or catching up), they cannot afford to lose personnel. It's not as easy as picking someone up the next day. You gotta go post the job, find applicants, interview them, get them through the company's hiring process, onboard them, train them, then get them on the project. That's a lot of time and resources just to get things back on track.
This obviously doesn't really apply to low-skill work. You could probably find another burger-flipper to work a McJob as well as your previous one within a week.
twiddlingbits · 1 points · Posted at 20:37:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes it takes time but if you are willing to outsource to a contractor or contractor agency it can be quick. I have done it myself to add or backfill. If you have a good relationship with an agency they can send you resumes in a few hours.
omgFWTbear · 1 points · Posted at 21:33:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Do you remember CircuitCity? Because they didn't remember this wisdom.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 17:40:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not so much. I work as a mover in Texas. It's a job most people don't want to do, so there isn't anyone gunning for my spot.
twiddlingbits · 0 points · Posted at 20:16:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes there are, illegal immigrants. If your employer can pick up Jose on the corner and pay him cash daily then there is your replacement.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 20:21:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Most of my co-workers ARE illegal immigrants. Try again.
twiddlingbits · 0 points · Posted at 20:28:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
so what is your skill they keep you on versus another illegal? You speak Spanish and English plus know they are violating the law and would turn them in?
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:34:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You completely missed the point of my original comment and the one I was responding to with it.
florinandrei · 2 points · Posted at 17:44:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"You need to go even flatter, /u/twiddlingbits"
gimpwiz · 1 points · Posted at 19:16:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There are only so many H1B slots. Getting one is a crapshoot. If people earning $150k in the bay area struggle getting H1Bs, why do you think it's so easy for an employer to replace an IT worker, just like that?
There are also a lot of costs associated with hiring and firing, other costs associated with visas, not to mention that no manager really wants to let someone go without being able to immediately backfill the position ... ideally with someone fully trained ... which is nearly impossible.
If more people say no, it'll be even harder to replace them.
twiddlingbits · 1 points · Posted at 20:09:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
IF more people say no...thats the key, the pressure on management to do more for less means they often sacrifice the quality worker either by working them too much or paying them poorly or both. They leave and then to get someone quick the backfill is outsourced to offshore or to firms that have the H1 slots. Yes they are limited but there are so many loopholes they might as well not be.
gimpwiz · 1 points · Posted at 20:31:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Offshoring is not limited, but by this point many companies have found that blindly offshoring projects doesn't work out. It's not a quick process to offshore.
It's hardly ever a quick process to backfill.
And specifically which loopholes about H1B visas do you believe make them effectively not limited?
twiddlingbits · 1 points · Posted at 20:35:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
you can get an outsourcing contract signed for a specifc skill in a couple weeks. I have done it.
H1s are just one of the Visas in use that are abused. As someone else said the quality is spotty and the whole "prevailing wage" concept is abused by the way job descriptions are written where no one can qualify except an H1 with a fake resume.
TheDreadPirateBikke · 1 points · Posted at 19:25:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Hiring an H1B1's isn't that easy, I've talked to HR about it and known some imported workers (indian guys). I've also never met a hiring manager that enjoys interviewing and hiring people. As someone who has been involved in the hiring process I can understand why, lots of terrible candidates out there (at least in the tech field).
Also on the H1B1's, the ones I've met in person have been great technically, I'm guessing only their best make it to our shore. But offshore developers tend to have a ton of issues, I think it's mostly communication and different styles of doing things. So I can see why for some work companies would be hesitant to go with them.
twiddlingbits · 2 points · Posted at 20:06:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I know all that having been in IT Management for years, my point still stands and I agree that there are good H1Bs and bad too. If his firm has an agreement with an agency holding H1 slots they can get people in quick and at lower pay.
finlyboo · 1 points · Posted at 17:32:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is awesome. Good for you.
Pre-Cursor_Lurker · 1 points · Posted at 17:40:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Hey HylianGains you the really stand up guy drunk guy +1
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:47:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I've experienced this too, although to a lesser extent than you of course. Sure, some people get annoyed every so often, but it consistently blows my mind how often people will give you what you want as long as you have the balls to actually ask for it. I've mainly been applying this to my social/dating life and just the people I've gone on dates with and the success I've had is surprising considering all I did was...make my intentions known.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:52:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I always have a hard time being assertive. I did this to my freelance job. I told him I'm not working on weekends. He hasn't bothered me ever since, unless it's really urgent.
igarglecock · 1 points · Posted at 17:57:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Glad you learned the lesson! Tyrants will push as far as you let them.
rebelx · 1 points · Posted at 17:57:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Is your name Harold?
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:07:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Congratulations!
meddlingmages · 1 points · Posted at 18:12:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You do get paid X1.5 thigh right? Some people are in the opposite situation, for instance overtime is frowned upon and will literally get you a "talking to"
Jehovahscatchrag · 1 points · Posted at 18:12:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I got a promotion shortly after punching my boss in the head
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:13:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That said, it's probably not a good idea to try this if you're mopping floors. Only do it after you've considered how much of a pain in the ass it would be for your company to replace you.
Rain_ducks · 1 points · Posted at 18:17:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You go girl!
bullydefender · 1 points · Posted at 18:17:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just hope you'll never need over time money though. They'll never give you overtime anymore.
IdiidDuItt · 1 points · Posted at 18:17:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
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djdadi · 1 points · Posted at 18:18:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ah I love being salaried. I work overtime every week without a schedule and without extra pay.
ProtectedCesc · 1 points · Posted at 18:23:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Only 40? Jeez that's more than enough. Don't ever do more than that for any job mate. 40 max!
themouseinator · 1 points · Posted at 19:45:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I wish I lived in the world you do. Sounds nice.
MilitantSheep · 1 points · Posted at 18:24:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"Only"??
ButterThatBacon · 1 points · Posted at 18:25:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That must have felt awesome. I've done similar stuff with the same result and feel like a million bucks every time.
ASAPxSyndicate · 1 points · Posted at 18:28:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I tried the same.. got fired..
adool999 · 1 points · Posted at 18:38:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Or just ask to get payed extra for the over time
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:54:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's really inspirational. I think I learned something from this post.
TurbidusQuaerenti · 1 points · Posted at 18:55:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Unfortunately that only works with rational people. The one person in my life who gives me the most grief I've tried standing up to several times, but they act like they're the victim and I'm being unfair and selfish when I do. What do you do then?
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:09:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The guy I said it too tried to guilt trip me as well. All you can do is stick with what you said.
Oftowerbroleaning · 1 points · Posted at 18:59:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I would kill for over time.
dusmeyedin · 1 points · Posted at 19:08:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I had an ex where this happened. Once I decided I had enough and once I was clear about what I would put up with and what I would not, it actually led to fewer arguments and fights.
Didn't save the relationship, though. Breaking up was the smartest thing we ever did as a couple.
TheIntrepid1 · 1 points · Posted at 19:32:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I used to think that saying Yes to the boss and higher ups was just being a good employee. And good employees get promoted right?
You want to move up in the company right? And the saying "if you want to be a good leader, you must also be a good follower"
You have to show them that you really want it, right?
Then I would see others get promoted and treated better than me that were less hard working. And I used to wonder why. "I'll just work even harder!" So I did. But nothing changed. No pay raises, no more time off, no offers of other better positions in the company.
Oh how naïve I was when I was younger! lol
That doesn't happen to me anymore :)
enderofgalaxies · 1 points · Posted at 19:34:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's that Hylian courage you've found ;)
Juxtaposition_sunset · 1 points · Posted at 19:38:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I tried that. Promptly lost my job and they immediately hired one of thundered of applicants because were all disposable.
NormalStu · 1 points · Posted at 19:51:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
40 hours?! In the uk/Europe 40 hours is the maximum time for a full time job. Anything else must be overtime and voluntary.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:02:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Here it's the minimum time for a full time job. Overtime is often forced and unpaid with a lot of employers. The UK and Europe are better than the US in a lot of areas.
mrhelton · 1 points · Posted at 19:59:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
He chooses a dvd for tonight
mozfustril · 1 points · Posted at 20:04:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Work for a big company and there was a Division head who had been there forever, had retired and was brought back to run things as a consultant so he had zero fucks to give and shit on everyone. I was brought in to try and fix some of the issues we were having with our interdepartmental work. At about the 2 week mark, he tried throwing me under the bus for something he wanted done outside of process, which I accommodated, but someone on his team fucked up. I was not having that at all and replied to everyone in the email saying he doesn't get to have it both ways. The problem's his. I had never spoken to him, but he called me and I guarantee he was physically shaking as he unleashed a tirade of "how dare you" and the like. I got fired up and started unloading back and telling him why he was wrong. Then I told him exactly what the problem was in his department, exactly where the problem was in ours, and how to fix all of it. He calmed down and I figured that was it. Nope. My boss called me about an hour later and asked what happened with Bob. People from other departments have tried to get me fired before, to no avail, but he was really high up so I was a little freaked. I asked what he said and it turns out he called my boss, said I was the best person from our department he'd ever dealt with, and he demanded I move to corporate immediately and be their permanent liaison from our department. I work from home at the beach in Florida so that was never going to happen. After I spent some more time with that department I found out he was just a bully who was so used to getting his way he didn't respect anyone, but the people who told him no or that he was wrong. Still just a horrible way to approach work/life/anything, but was a great lesson for why it's important to stand up for yourself, particularly when someone is trying to blame you for something you didn't do. It's a better lesson for offering solutions and not just trying to defend yourself (or complaining in other situations) when dealing with issues.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:23:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm glad it worked out like this. I'd like to add that the opposite is also a common outcome where people who expect you to be passive to abuse or exploitation will often become more forceful when your react differently to their expectation when they would respect someone who hadn't behaved passively previously. The important thing to understand is that someone else's response to your behavior is not the only metric by which you can determine whether your behavior is right or not.
This realisation was a game changer for me and allowed me to begin to break my passivity. If someone is upset by you standing up for your rights, it is not you that did something wrong
mozennymoproblems · 902 points · Posted at 17:15:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And once you let them do it once they'll think they can forever and become confused and hurt when you don't.
oWatchdog · 436 points · Posted at 17:52:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's what I think is so hilariously irrational. Did you really think there was no end to my accommodating. I was being generous, but now that you're blatantly taking advantage of my generosity I'm the bad guy of your story for saying, "no more". Now all those times I was helpful are unappreciated after I say no once. Almost makes you want to read Atlas Shrugged and shake your head yes in agreement.
slowhand88 · 315 points · Posted at 18:19:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The expectations you set are a very important part of how people percieve you.
I have a friend that used to be very giving and generous and would pick up extra rounds and all that when we were out, buy people tickets for shit and not bother them about paying him back quickly, all kinds of shit. He became known for it. Well, eventually when he decided to tighten the purse strings up a bit and stop hemmoraging money so he could save up to get a better house... all of a sudden he's a cheap asshole.
"What happened to [Name]? He's really selfish now."
No he's not. He's always been way more generous about giving than any of us, in fact he still is, he's just not a free shit vending machine anymore. It just seems like once you pigeonhole yourself into the role of always being that guy, you can no longer say "no" even once or people take it reaaally fuckin hard.
Pollomonteros · 47 points · Posted at 18:33:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Did you say that to rest of your friends? How did they react?
slowhand88 · 54 points · Posted at 18:36:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I kinda mentioned it in passing and people are starting to figure it out on their own, but I didn't really want to poke the bear.
This is a friend group I don't hang out with much anymore because I live 5 and half hours away from them now. It's not really my place to rattle up the politics.
kyew · 28 points · Posted at 19:09:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You might be doing them a favor by being the one who says it then, since you're further removed.
InUteroForTheWinter · 42 points · Posted at 18:40:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Hey man, you do you, but that is totally your place to poke the bear
HGovindD · 1 points · Posted at 05:53:31 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
There's a friend who drives us around when we hangout because the other 3 (including myself) don't have a car yet. We're in the University, BTW. He's always on time to pick us up. So, the last time we hung out, his dinner & movie ticket was shared by the rest of us : my initiative.
I didn't want him to feel being taken advantage of. He said that I was generous & was appreciative.
SaltAssault · 13 points · Posted at 18:50:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's both the upside and the downside of it. By the point you're done being taking advantaged of in a relationship and the entitled asshats actually think that they're the victims, you actually kind of want them to think that. Looking on as they throw temper tantrums and cry about how unfair it all is can be surprisingly satisfying.
ManyPoo · 9 points · Posted at 19:33:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So the options are:
1) Never be a doormap
2) Be a doormat and then stop
3) Never stop being a doormat
2 might not be as good as 1, but it's better than 3.
CoAmon · 7 points · Posted at 20:00:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This reminds me of a friend I knew in the SCA. Not only was he generous with money, where he would buy other people's supplies like food and booze, he was also really generous with rides. Like, he would go several hours out of his way to pick up other faire folk and being them to the event. People used to be grateful, but at this point people just sort of expect it.
He's pretty miserable, but he can't bring himself to confront them about it because he's afraid that they won't continue being friends with him. The sad thing is that he might be right.
sigmaecho · 2 points · Posted at 20:50:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The psychological problem of Loss Aversion. Relevant Planet Money episode. TL;DL - Humans are spoiled, entitled assholes without even realizing it.
peensandrice · 12 points · Posted at 18:35:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's how you sift the mooches from the friends. Friends will understand that you have boundaries; mooches see boundaries as something personally offensive.
It was eye-opening for me when I was younger and finally started putting my foot down. The mooches faded out and the friends poked me and said, "about damned time you said 'no' once in a while."
ImafraudoramI · 2 points · Posted at 18:24:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Exactly that! I quit my job a few days ago because of that. I could just not take that shit any longer.
MrCrash · 5 points · Posted at 18:33:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Objectivism only creates more entitled assholes. Compassion, empathy, and cooperation creates a more healthy society than cold self-interest.
See "the tragedy of the commons".
Tramm · 1 points · Posted at 19:19:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I wish I had said this to get when we were breaking up, damn it.
APurpleBear · 1 points · Posted at 18:29:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This comment is a weird sort of poetic, sprog 2.0 perhaps?
Silly_little_pet · 1 points · Posted at 19:54:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's completely rational. Other people can't read your mind and magically discern your intentions and wishes. They have to figure that out based on your actions, because that's literally the only thing they have to go off. If your actions are not indicative of your wishes and future intentions, then you are actively misleading people around you.
There's literally no one other than you that can create a precedence of what to expect from you. But obviously it's a lot easier on the ego to externalize the blame, rather than actually taking responsibility for the consequences of your own behaviour.
GenitaliaDevourer · 1 points · Posted at 05:14:00 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes, but it is undeniable that the other side is 100% at fault for being antsy. If someone had made a reputation of being generous, then suddenly stopped, something had obviously gave for that person. Whether they're fed up with you, can't afford to continue doing so, or just stopped being generous, it could never warrant the consequences that follow a "no." People aren't mind readers, but there cannot be so many dumb enough to not realize shitting on said person is not fitting for any possible conclusion reached. If said person is fed up with you, you're only worsening it. If said person is trying to save up, you're just being selfish and condemning someone trying to improve their situation. If they've stopped being generous, it's as simple as that, and is actually questionable you flocked to this person solely because of being generous.
Truly had no intention of commenting till I saw your ending:
If someone gives, regardless of how poor, I assume you wish for them to give till their death or suffer? Obviously, givers could draw a line, but how low are the standards you hold the offenders to not recognize the situation of a coworker(is obviously working, therefore not made of money and actively trading off their other desires to satisfy other with treats)?
[deleted] · 197 points · Posted at 17:38:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Edit: Apologies. Turns out that I was probably in the midst of a stroke while attempting to type out what I intended to say below. I'm doing much better now. No need to bring out your dead.
TLDR; Joined a startup. They promised me equity. Wasn't in writing. That's my fault. Every success was treated with a "good boy" back pat. And nothing else. Eventually I stopped being patient and asked them why in the world I wasn't an equity partner? They mentioned, yet again, that one time, when I woke up at 2am, in order to solve a complex problem, and how I wasn't living up to that standard anymore. In other words, if I dont want to work 60+ hours a week, including the middle of the night, then I dont deserve equity. Noped out of that situation quickly.
This happened to me. My wife and I decided to relocate. I found a job first. I moved up here and was alone for about 4 months while my wife found a position as well; along with selling the old house.
I was alone, and had a problem I couldn't solve that irked me. So at 2am, I woke up, modified an external library to do what we wanted, and checked it in.
My wife moved up, and now I wanted to go back to a 40 hour a week schedule. Oh how I was reminded of "what happened to the old you? You know, the guy who would stay up until 2am to solve a problem?" Wtf guys. You promised me equity. That didn't work out. So why should I give a fuck of providing more than 40 hours of service?
StpdSxyFlndrs · 471 points · Posted at 18:01:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I feel like you left an important part of your story out because it makes no sense.
NnamdiAzikiwe · 41 points · Posted at 18:07:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I guess, when he moved to his new place, he was alone as his wife was still closing the old house. So he had some time to himself and could still afford to think about work till late at night. Hence him doing some coding by 2am to solve so problems at work. Now that his wife is around, his colleagues are wondering what happened to the guy that codes at 2am.
ehboobooo · 36 points · Posted at 18:12:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Who the fuck wants to work until 2AM without equity
You better be paying me 250k minimum
gimpwiz · 4 points · Posted at 19:18:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I've done it before. Sometimes you just don't want to quit till a problem is solved. A lot of engineers and programmers are like that.
Every night, fuck no, some nights, absolutely.
ehboobooo · 3 points · Posted at 19:42:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yea me too, just quit and my last week is this week. I can't wait to have my life and health back.
justatouch589 · 65 points · Posted at 18:04:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Hahaha same I just read it twice I'm glad I'm not stupid.
imnotarapperok · -10 points · Posted at 18:41:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Don't be an asshole about it
Edit: I read his post wrong, Ironically
FrostyD7 · 8 points · Posted at 18:46:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
He just admitted to first assuming he was stupid instead of OP for his incoherent post, how is he an asshole?
imnotarapperok · 1 points · Posted at 18:47:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I read it with hostility, my bad!
turtlemonkey816 · 1 points · Posted at 19:48:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Like this? "I'm glad I'M not stupid."
DayvyT · 1 points · Posted at 18:47:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
me too thanks
MiamiFootball · 1 points · Posted at 19:33:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
that story is breaking y'all's minds
Molag_Balls · 51 points · Posted at 18:07:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No I got it, there's nothing missing.
He worked harder and longer hours before his wife joined him in a new location, because he had fuck all better to do.
His coworkers complained about him not working as hard when his wife moved to join him because he no longer had nothing to do.
_Ganon · 18 points · Posted at 18:16:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well it seems like there was some promise of equity, which didn't actually end up happening, and that's the reason why he stopped working >40 hour weeks. But the paragraph starts with how he wanted to go back to a 40 hour week because he wife finally moves to the new place, which goes with the story. So this whole equity thing just kind of came out of nowhere and the paragraph ends with him saying it was the equity thing ... dude just seems salty about not getting equity and had to work that in there somehow, but the point he's trying to make became confused due to the sudden mention of not getting promised equity.
Molag_Balls · 4 points · Posted at 18:25:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm not sure that one piece of extra contextual information makes the story any less intelligible.
Also speaking of paragraphs your comment could use some.
Crouch310 · 6 points · Posted at 18:27:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think he might have been referring to the library. People might not understand its DB related. I might be wrong though.
Vio_ · 9 points · Posted at 18:45:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
As someone not into computers, it took me a minute to realize he wasn't checking out something at his local library at 2 am.
_Ganon · 2 points · Posted at 19:25:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Speaking of paragraphs, your's could use less. Not every sentence needs to be on its own line, friend.
dr1fter · 1 points · Posted at 20:57:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You're generalizing an awful lot from n=2. If those two lines have nothing to do with each other, there's nothing wrong with keeping them separate. That's what paragraphs are for, after all.
Molag_Balls · 1 points · Posted at 19:26:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Touché, but whose is more readable?
RichWPX · 2 points · Posted at 18:44:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oh cause he had his wife to do! Nailed it.
rockmasterflex · 0 points · Posted at 19:02:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is the part of the story that makes ZERO sense. His wife not being around means he had fuck all better to do? DOES THIS MAN NOT HOBBY?
Volundarkvioa · 1 points · Posted at 19:21:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
He might just be / have been a workaholic.
TessHKM · 1 points · Posted at 19:50:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Probably not.
[deleted] · 6 points · Posted at 18:14:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think he's just bad at telling a story.
OP moved to new town, while his wife stayed in old town for about 4 months. Since OP was alone in the new town, he put in a lot of overtime at his work, an example of this being the time he woke up at 2AM to finish working on a problem at work.
Eventually, wife finishes up her business and moves to the new town with him, and he obviously now wants to go back to a 40hr/week schedule at work. They pester him about it, always bringing up the time he "stayed up until 2am to solve a problem"
cheeset2 · 11 points · Posted at 18:10:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So I think I got it.
He moves, he's alone. Has time. Works on project for work until/at 2am. Work notices. New Norm.
Wifes moves in with him. No more time. Wants 40 hour week again. Company expects worker who works at 2am because hes done it before.
Vio_ · 1 points · Posted at 18:47:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
He should have communicated his extra work plan ahead of time with his supervisor. That gives everyone the timeline on extra work and future expectations when he'd return to his normal working hours.
PhilSushi · 7 points · Posted at 18:07:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
He's a software engineer, the "external library" is a programming thing.
danielleiellle · 3 points · Posted at 18:15:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
His second paragraphs: there was a coding problem for work that he realized he could solve in the middle of the night. So, he got up, solved it, and checked his code back in. At least on my past teams you may see notifications or feeds of when people check code in since you might be working on the same bit of the application.
So, he set a precedent for being a guy who works outside of normal hours, because he had a small period of his life where it didn't bother anyone that he was awake at abnormal times.
StpdSxyFlndrs · 2 points · Posted at 18:17:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Mentioning "coding" would be the part that is missing.
monkeyjazz · 0 points · Posted at 19:11:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes. Here I was thinking he carpentered an actual library outdoors :-/
MonkeyCube · 2 points · Posted at 18:18:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Dude moved, got a tech job. They promised him equity. His wife didn't move for another 4 months. So he had a lot of time to work hard at his job, part of which required work that he would suddenly solve with 'A-ha!' moments at night. Wife finally moved. He started to work more regular hours, and at some point he didn't get equity (for unknown reasons to us). The job complained.
It took me second to parse as well.
Basjaa · 2 points · Posted at 18:45:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yea lmao. I'm so confused
Vio_ · 1 points · Posted at 18:44:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think he became the go-to guy for 24 hour support while his wife was gone. Then his job didn't realize that it was a temp thing for him, and assumed he'd be on call forever. The guy should have talked to his boss about it as he was doing it. "I'm more than happy to do this for a month or two, but I can't do this after my wife moves up here with me."
That gives a reasonable expectation of when the extra help ends, shows he's an extra mile guy even for a short time, and gives him and his boss the window of when that'd stop.
nonameDanK · 1 points · Posted at 19:16:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
He worked overtime while his wife was away and was met with disappointment from his boss when he no longer had the time or desire to keep it up.
basiamille · 1 points · Posted at 18:22:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If I understand the comment, the author was more flexible for his employer while his wife was away; once the wife was back, the commenter wanted to resume a more traditional timeframe, which made the employer balk.
thegarlicbreadisgone · 2 points · Posted at 18:40:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Also, something about equity.
penny_eater · 8 points · Posted at 18:07:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The people who think working well past 40 hrs a week is healthy+normal+productive are the ones who will hit that wall the hardest. Watch the fuck out
scoopi · 4 points · Posted at 18:08:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Huh?
Terr_ · 4 points · Posted at 18:28:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think he left out a part where the company somehow didn't fulfill an earlier agreement for an ownership stake in the company.
So they offered less and then complained when he did less.
thegarlicbreadisgone · 2 points · Posted at 18:41:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Also, something about his wife
rsqejfwflqkj · 2 points · Posted at 18:53:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When your employer reneges on a promise, unless they have a good reason and do their best to make it up in other ways, leave.
Especially a promise on compensation. In fact, don't take promises. Get it on paper, with a signature.
This lies squarely in the "letting people walk all over you" vein...
bn326160 · 1 points · Posted at 18:40:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I had trouble understanding but with /u/Molag_Balls addition, I wanted to point the following out as well:
tael89 · 1 points · Posted at 18:43:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm with the other guy on this. What?
bieker · 1 points · Posted at 18:56:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ahhh, the old you can start on Monday and we will work the paperwork out later offer. I fell for that one once too.
qwenjwenfljnanq · 4 points · Posted at 17:58:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
North Korea in a nutshell.
frit0paws · 3 points · Posted at 18:11:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Happened to me too. Multiple times. I'm getting better about preventing it from happening in the first place.
MostlyAngry · 2 points · Posted at 18:18:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is why boundaries are important very early in any relationship.
Vio_ · 2 points · Posted at 18:41:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's because original boundaries usually don't shift, and when they do, people get angry. Once the precedent has been set for boundaries, people tend to think they'll last forever. Once those extra privileges are revoked, the abusers don't understand that they were overstepping their bounds in the firsts place, and think the privileges were always rights on their end.
Skywalker87 · 1 points · Posted at 19:16:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I finally set some boundaries with a family member after almost a year of letting her interfere with my family's schedule and Home life. She flipped out, brought up a bunch of old arguments and we have barely spoken in weeks now.
How quickly it escalated from "Hey family member, maybe you should consider our schedule for once" to "I HATE YOU AND YOU ARE EVIL!!" Made my head Spin.
LeafRunning · 1 points · Posted at 19:16:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Give a friend a lift / ride 20 times and you get a "Cheers". Refuse once and you're a dick.
perfectdarktrump · 1 points · Posted at 21:06:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
People don't know when to stop.
indigogalaxy_ · 352 points · Posted at 17:43:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I just let my "friend" stay in my apartment while I was away this summer (for a greatly reduced rent from what I pay and asked for no bill money so she could save up to go back to school) and she left the place a mess and ruined all of my living room furniture with spilled wine and her bloody cat scratching up everything. She had the audacity to say "it wasn't that clean when I moved in, I cleaned for like an hour before I left!" Well- I cleaned for over four hours before she moved in to leave her a nice place and there was not only a swarm of fruit flies when I got back but also fucking CAT TURDS ON THE FLOOR. No good deed..
Sorry, been dying to vent this, thank you for the opportunity. I get walked all over in all aspects of my life, I'm finally getting fed up enough to quit taking it.
[deleted] · 55 points · Posted at 17:57:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's alright man. Nothing grinds my fucking gears more than people who don't take care of other peoples' stuff. My stuff is mine for a reason. By definition, you are not obligated to it and I can revoke your privileges at any time.
My possession that mostly falls under this rule is my car. I've stepped into far too many vehicles where I've had to kick BK and McDonald's wrappers just to get my foot room. You drive my car, you keep it clean and take care of it, or you don't get to drive my car anymore. No leaving trash, wrappers, or containers. You bring it in, you take it out. Period. End of story. Don't like it? Find another ride.
kindrudekid · 14 points · Posted at 19:27:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Man you are way too generous.
Even if you are are not driving, I have heard you can be held liable.
I do not let anyone drive my car.
mostoriginalusername · 3 points · Posted at 20:08:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I even get antsy about my wife driving my car, and we're both on insurance for both cars. My car is my baby though, and I would be devastated if something happened to it that I didn't possibly have the chance to avoid.
indigogalaxy_ · 6 points · Posted at 18:22:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Thank you, I mean--right though?? Especially a car, cars are expensive and it's hard enough to keep the value from depreciating without anyone trashing it. Painfully disrespectful.
pfun4125 · 3 points · Posted at 19:58:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I treat my vehicles as well as I can. My family treats theirs like shit. I've since learned they can't be trusted around my vehicles because they treat them like shit and get an attitude when I have a problem with it.
philaenopsis · 11 points · Posted at 19:14:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I hope you're not friends with her anymore. That's shitty behavior, plus she clearly doesn't respect your belongings/money or your time.
[deleted] · 16 points · Posted at 19:18:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ha! My mother is a hoarder (and pretty worthless in general), and she came to my apartment once and started leaving a mess. I said "listen, you're gonna have to throw your trash away and pick all those cigarette butts up out of my yard." Instead of apologizing, she said "you have pine cones in your yard!" What?
nesstor1891 · 7 points · Posted at 19:35:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I fail to see the relation between picking up cigarette butts out of your yard to "you have pine cones in your yard" did she think that the yard is the common denominator in the conversation?
[deleted] · 6 points · Posted at 20:36:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I guess so? Because the yard was littered with pine cones already, her 45 cigarette butts weren't a problem
SuperSocrates · 3 points · Posted at 22:04:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But pine cones are awesome!
cinnapear · 8 points · Posted at 19:37:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Damn, you'd think that if you had an hour to spend on cleaning, picking up cat turds from the floor might be included somewhere in that span.
THEtheChad · 8 points · Posted at 20:11:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I had a friend that was living alone at his parents house (they were working in China) but was unemployed and just lost his dog. We were both going through some rough stuff. I figured we could each use the companionship and told him he could move in to my spare room for free. There were issues but they didn't really bother me. He was messy but kept it to his room; that's fine. He'd use my pots and pans from time to time (and not clean them), but again, no big deal. Found a new job and was putting money in the bank. Figured he'd start paying rent soon. Fast forward about 3 months and his parents inform him they're moving back to the states, but they need a car. He has two... an S2000 and an Acura. He's giving them the Acura and plans to sell the S2000 and buy a daily driver (S2K is useless in the winter). Buys a 500hp fucking Cadillac CTS for 15k. Does NOT sell the S2000 (still has it to this day) and STILL doesn't even THINK to pay me any rent money. MAYBE I'd be fine with it if he actually did ANYTHING around the apartment other than leave dirty dishes and destroy my George Forman by burning chicken and bread on it because he walked away and was too busy Facebooking to remember to take it off. Kicked him out not long after the car incident to help another friend that actually appreciated the gesture, paid rent (only $300), and helped clean from time to time.
Apkoha · 8 points · Posted at 19:45:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
what a piece of shit and she shouldn't have an animal. Cats not going to shit on the floor unless the litter box isn't clean meaning she does a piss poor fucking job of looking after her animal. Poor fucking cat. Bitch deserve a cunt punch.
StinkyMulder · 4 points · Posted at 19:38:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Me too. You and I should start a club. "No Jerks allowed"
llewkeller · 5 points · Posted at 20:14:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I've living long enough to learn some disillusioning truths that have forced me to create some new rules: 1. Never let anybody borrow something from you that you want back, and that includes money. 2. Never let anybody "house-sit" your home for more than a few days when you're away, unless you've seen their home, and know they are reasonably neat people. 2a. Never let them bring their pet, unless you know it personally, and know that it's house-broken, and not destructive. 3. Never co-sign a loan for anybody...ever. 4. If you loan your car to somebody, make sure the parameters are clear before s/he takes it, i.e: you expect it back with a full tank of gas. 5. If you let somebody stay in your house while you're there (because they have no place else), make sure they know they're expected to contribute their portion of the grocery money if they're expecting meals, and sweat (to clean), and that they're welcome to stay "X" days or weeks, not indefinitely. You can always re-evaluate at the end of "X," if you want to extend their stay.
pfun4125 · 3 points · Posted at 19:56:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I would have sent her a bill for damages. Some friend s aren't friends at all, sometimes you gotta burn some bridges.
kindrudekid · 2 points · Posted at 19:25:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Before anyone stays at my place I tell them this rule:
If you remove an item from it's original location, put it back there in same place after your are done, not later and if possible put it back in a better position. Eg: You eat my leftover from container, the least you can do is clean the container and put it in drying rack. But at the same time dont bother half assing it.
I had a guest one time that cleaned tableware without actually scrubbing, I mean i can see the white leftover when it dried. I just started doing it in from of them again and thankfully they got the hint
Bandits101 · 2 points · Posted at 20:45:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I feel for you. A close friend IMO would not do that, I would expect it from family but a close friend, not really. I would feel violated, angry and vengeful. Good, caring people like yourself I guess move on.
ezbakegaschamber · 464 points · Posted at 16:33:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
:( I realized this too late.
[deleted] · 877 points · Posted at 17:16:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's only late if you're a corpse
javitogomezzzz · 244 points · Posted at 17:52:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
he ded yo
nthensome · 6 points · Posted at 18:16:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Shit. r/toosoon
Iaresamurai · 3 points · Posted at 18:27:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
gg
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:11:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
RIP in pepperoni
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 18:15:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
F
do_0b · 1 points · Posted at 18:59:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
alright. we caught him! bake 'em away toys.
CHEESEFLAV0RED · 1 points · Posted at 19:31:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
died for our signs 🚫
LagOutLoud · 6 points · Posted at 17:53:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Or just really really flat.
Curlaub · 4 points · Posted at 17:59:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Judging by his username, he just might be
LostWoodsInTheField · 3 points · Posted at 18:08:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What if I'm dead inside? Does that count?
dkfgo · 3 points · Posted at 18:16:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
SPOOKY
TheMetalJug · 2 points · Posted at 18:21:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In the cool of the evening...
deadleg22 · 2 points · Posted at 18:10:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You have a morbid taste in doormats.
TreatmentForYourRash · 1 points · Posted at 17:55:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I mean you aren't wrong
-Captain- · 1 points · Posted at 18:04:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well shit.
Prankishbear · 1 points · Posted at 18:35:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Fucking HELL YEAH
mantic_marge · 8 points · Posted at 17:23:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's never too late to stand up for yourself!
[deleted] · 9 points · Posted at 17:24:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm middle aged and still working to grasp it now. Some never get it at all.
EbowGB · 3 points · Posted at 18:03:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Too late for That Event/Thing/Situation.
Not too late for the next one.
Good luck, internet stranger x
I_ASK_WEIRD_QUES · 3 points · Posted at 17:13:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Who did you let walk over you friendo?
ezbakegaschamber · 9 points · Posted at 17:25:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My ex. I am with someone better now. But she always made me feel like the asshole for putting myself forward a very minimal amount of time.
I_ASK_WEIRD_QUES · 5 points · Posted at 17:48:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Good job on making her your ex
[deleted] · 5 points · Posted at 17:23:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My god he is so inconsiderate not replying to you. Why can't he think of someone else for once.
Juicebox2012 · 2 points · Posted at 18:07:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What /u/snkrim said. If you're still breathing you have time to be assertive and make changes in your life
Jack_South · 2 points · Posted at 18:16:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's never too late. Each time people walk over you, you allow them. When people are going too far, just say no. When you want to say no, just do it. You have the right like everybody else. It will be a struggle in the beginning, but you'll get it right. It's a mindset more than anything else.
Alateriel · 227 points · Posted at 17:05:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I actually really like this quote. I'm storing it away for later.
scorpionma · 11 points · Posted at 17:19:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't get it, please help thanks.
Is it about chest size?
xJAAx · 18 points · Posted at 17:29:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's pretty much saying that even if you bend over backwards for some people and do everything you can even if it hurts you doing so, they will still complain that is isn't good enough for them. I.e. that you are not flat enough for them and all their wants.
scorpionma · 4 points · Posted at 17:32:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oooooooh shit, fuck in dumb
Thank you so much for answering me, sorry my stupidity
zdakat · 3 points · Posted at 17:47:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Lmao I thought you were joking
grshealy · 5 points · Posted at 17:26:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
someone inconsiderate enough to take advantage of what you offer them (i.e. walk all over you) will be inconsiderate enough to complain you are not sufficiently providing/yielding to them.
scorpionma · 2 points · Posted at 17:32:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Thank you so much for answering, I'm fucking dumb.
Thanks
MyStrangeUncles · 6 points · Posted at 17:40:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You're not dumb or stupid! You shouldn't talk about yourself like that, even in jest. Not letting people treat you badly starts by not treating yourself badly.
You are a beautiful person, I hope you have a great day! :)
scorpionma · 6 points · Posted at 17:57:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Man you don't know how it feels to read this after a bad day, you definitely broyght a smile to my face:) Thanks man you're the best
grshealy · 2 points · Posted at 17:40:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
no prob, pal
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 17:24:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think it's about waist size
[deleted] · 22 points · Posted at 17:18:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Me too. My minion has been all uppity lately.
"I am tired of porridge."
"My toilet has been broken for 4 months."
Bitch needs to flatten the fuck up.
LeagueOfLegendsAcc · 0 points · Posted at 17:34:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Steamroll that hoe, that'll do it
Aleahj · 18 points · Posted at 17:17:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Wow. This is my current work life. But as the junior team member, how do I stop being a door mat? I've been told it's my turn to shovel shit because everyone does at first.
[deleted] · 12 points · Posted at 17:41:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I suppose it depends on why you're shoveling shit. You don't say what you do.
There can be virtue in it. If you're getting your hands in lots of different parts of the business it can be a valuable learning experience. Even If its just a heavy work load it's a good way to build your skills.
If shoveling shit is the job description you can't really complain about it. Take the experience you've gained and start job hunting.
If you've got coworkers pushing off their work on you cause your the new guy just tell them no.
You don't have to say yes to everything. Understand what your job is. Understand what will help you advance. Don't waist your energy on anything else.
DawnoftheShred · 6 points · Posted at 17:41:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's kinda the way it is a lot of work places. Don't let it discourage you from doing your best and keeping a good attitude. I was in that position for a few years and I busted my ars to outwork everyone. Then when one of the bosses retired they offered me his job and I became the boss.
NachosUnlimited · 11 points · Posted at 17:17:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yep I did this with my "friends" and bullies a few years ago in highschool, did not work and if anything it encouraged them.
StinkyMulder · 10 points · Posted at 18:15:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I feel like I have to re-learn this every time I make a new friend. I don't make new friends often, but I'm so trusting I give everyone the benefit of the doubt. And then a few months in I will catch them in a lie or I'll notice that they've been using me. I just had a "good friend" get mad at me for asking her to watch my kids for a few hours so we could attend a wedding. I've watched her kid 10 or 15 times in the last year, always with very short notice. Always for free. Several times while I was working (from home) and at least once when I was so sick I could barely get off the couch. My "friend" got hit by a truck (going slow speed) about a month ago. No physical injuries other than she was sore. But she kept inviting me out and telling me she was healing. So I asked her to return the favour and now I'm an asshole because her injuries are suddenly far worse than she ever mentioned. So we had to ask my MIL who has stage 4 cancer... and she was happy to help. I'm honestly considering not being friends with that lady anymore.
Journeyofart · 5 points · Posted at 19:16:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Considering? Drop her like a bad cold. You need to seriously work on your No's. Like say it at least once a day, holy crap.
Aerospacio · 7 points · Posted at 17:57:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Why there are so many mother fuckers that walk over people though?
StinkyMulder · 1 points · Posted at 19:43:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It seems like they're every-fucking-where!
cstarman · 7 points · Posted at 18:00:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Early in my relationship I let my girlfriend make lots of decisions on things we did and ate because I really didn't care.
Now when I say I don't want to do something in particular she gets upset and says "why are you so grumpy?" It's like I'm not, I'm just finally giving my opinion on things.
I-Wish-I-Knew · 2 points · Posted at 18:04:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The key is to find the balance between confidence and arrogance in your decisions and how you present yourself.
The "grumpy" context she is seeing may just be arrogance showing through stronger than your confidence (probably because it sounds like you just discovered yourself and the power within).
You will feel the power even more if you learn to control it to your benefit for the particular situation.
[deleted] · 12 points · Posted at 17:39:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
TreatmentForYourRash · 1 points · Posted at 17:56:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Did you post the same poem twice?
Joyrock · 4 points · Posted at 17:19:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Damn, that's a good quote.
mostnormal · 5 points · Posted at 17:35:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Have you ever tried walking on someone? It's not as easy as you think! People are soft and squishy. Good footing is hard to come by when you're walking on people.
WalterPolyglot · 4 points · Posted at 18:04:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not to take away from your excellent point, but it tickles me that someone answers a post about something 90% of people don't understand, and then everyone agrees wholeheartedly. XD
Classic Reddit.
[deleted] · 7 points · Posted at 17:16:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you let people walk all over you then they will start stamping out any bumps they see.
DarthGrind · 5 points · Posted at 18:38:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My biggest and most overwhelming issue of all. I'm too nice. It's just wrong isn't it?
StinkyMulder · 4 points · Posted at 19:49:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's like people notice that you're just a good, nice, down to earth person and immediately make it their mission to use you in every way they can.
Journeyofart · 1 points · Posted at 19:42:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I suggest you say No every chance you get. Just for a week or so. Also, you are probably the type of person to smile in conversation with new people for no obvious reason, no joke said etc. Try not smiling. Again just for a week, you will learn a lot.
maggotbrownie · 6 points · Posted at 17:34:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I had to read that several time because I thought it was about flat earthers
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:20:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I thought the whole point was about flat earthers until read some responses.
DreamOnFire · 3 points · Posted at 17:42:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is how my life feels at the moment. 😞
JSpinnler · 3 points · Posted at 17:58:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Fuck Flat Stanley
zucchini_asshole · 4 points · Posted at 17:18:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
However, you can't just keep holding the door open and get angry when no one thanks you. Grow a fucking spine and stand up for yourself.
Iamtevya · 1 points · Posted at 20:12:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Hodor?
patzw · 2 points · Posted at 17:32:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If i had money I'd give you gold for this. Even while knowing this on some level, I don't think it ever really hit me until reading it in your words...
StinkyMulder · 2 points · Posted at 19:46:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I feel like I've learned this so many times in my life already. But every time I make a new friend I seem to forget and the cycle starts all over again.
Iron_Knickers · 2 points · Posted at 18:03:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Its one of those things that you will not be immediately socially rewarded for but something that you must do, standing up for yourself. In the longer term you will of course have people's respect.
Connor177 · 2 points · Posted at 18:04:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"When you put people on a pedestal, you give them no choice but to look down on you."
1pa · 2 points · Posted at 18:10:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Trouble is, it's really hard to be a hardass and not be a dick. There will eventually be inadvertent spillage
defanged_destroyer · 2 points · Posted at 18:11:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oh I feel this one. It's a HARD lesson to learn.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:21:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This hit a little bit too close to home for me. Thank you for your reply
Cynical_Cyanide · 2 points · Posted at 18:43:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
100% true, and something I've only just recently really been reminded of.
kbfprivate · 2 points · Posted at 19:17:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No good deed goes unpunished
laundry56 · 1 points · Posted at 17:15:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
fuck what was this from I just watched this in a movie or something...
_its_a_SWEATER_ · 1 points · Posted at 17:18:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Hits right in the feels.
Mr_Smoogs · 1 points · Posted at 17:23:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I really like that. Saving this
Jth20 · 1 points · Posted at 17:31:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yup! You give them an inch they want a mile.
basb9191 · 1 points · Posted at 17:59:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Saw this exact quote on a meme on facebook yesterday.. What are the odds..
CloudyGround · 1 points · Posted at 18:02:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That Namibian elephant isn't complaining
kanejarrett · 1 points · Posted at 18:10:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Username checks out.
TimMeijer104 · 1 points · Posted at 18:14:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In this situation with my girlfriend (in some ways) and my best friend, don't want to end anything but everytime I say something they'll tell me it's always something with me or that I'm killing their vibe.
Monkeymash99 · 1 points · Posted at 18:17:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When do 90% of people believe this?
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:25:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Thank you
WolfeS93 · 1 points · Posted at 18:30:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Something I should've known in my teen years
JPCOO · 1 points · Posted at 18:30:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How come I don't do that then?
BarackHusseinSoetoro · 1 points · Posted at 18:31:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I like my chicks stacked. I would never complain they weren't flat enough
steinman17 · 1 points · Posted at 18:46:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There's a joke in here about flat earthers
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:56:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is me right now. My boss called crying that his cat died and if I could come work in 30 minutes for the whole day. And then for the three days after, because they're so devastated about it. When my grandmother died, I couldn't take a day off, because he had a breakfasy for easter somewhere.
btbcorno · 2 points · Posted at 19:17:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The trick is to NEVER answer your phone for your boss. If it's important they will leave a message.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 12:17:35 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I would, but the guy also has my mothers phone number and then she started calling me
GoGoGengar · 1 points · Posted at 19:03:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I honestly thought this was a flat earth joke.
free_beer · 1 points · Posted at 19:10:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Kind of like the Earth.
TheDoughnutKing · 1 points · Posted at 19:15:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Is this a metaphor? Because I've had the literal version happen to me many a time.
sensual_manatee · 1 points · Posted at 19:15:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
-Earth
BigLukeIsHere · 1 points · Posted at 19:18:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The Earth doesn't understand this! :)
tochasetheskies · 1 points · Posted at 19:27:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I still haven't figured out how to be strong all on my own.
casingrgrl16 · 1 points · Posted at 19:47:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This. I don't think he'd ever admit it, or maybe he doesn't even realize it himself, but I think this is what happened with my ex. I gave so much of myself in that relationship, too much, and I was too forgiving because I truly thought that's how you're supposed to be in love. But ultimately I think he just lost respect for me. It's like he wanted someone who was going to tell him no, just so that it could feel like a challenge.
Pickled_Wizard · 1 points · Posted at 19:48:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Especially if you let people walk all over you.
jimbojangles1987 · 1 points · Posted at 19:49:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
God damn this applies so much to my life and my self esteem issues.
A-HuangSteakSauce · 1 points · Posted at 19:57:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"He’s going to marry the first girl he lays, and she’s going to treat him like shit, because you can’t respect somebody that kisses your ass." -Ferris Bueller.
BlueberryPhi · 1 points · Posted at 20:06:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How can you tell whether you're standing up for yourself or just being rude/selfish about something? Especially when the people who've been walking over you react the same way to either, and/or are your boss?
MasterbeaterPi · 1 points · Posted at 20:24:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not if they are fucking you too. Then you can still be deep enough.
crapplecinnabutt · 1 points · Posted at 21:10:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Am I the only one who thought this was a clever reference to people who think the earth is flat?
Aerocity · 1 points · Posted at 21:21:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Hey, I know you've probably had hundreds/thousands of replies at this point but I just wanted to say thanks, really needed this perspective today.
Genericandhere · 1 points · Posted at 21:27:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No problem
ProfessionalMrPhann · 1 points · Posted at 04:18:45 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I was told the opposite as a kid :/
Apparently getting defensive "is the reaction they look for" and therefore they'll keep doing it.
_Blurryface_21 · 0 points · Posted at 17:26:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Unless you're taylor swift. She is pretty much just Flat.
[deleted] · -7 points · Posted at 18:17:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Doctor_Steve_Gates · 3 points · Posted at 19:39:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Everything with any meaning behind it is meaningless and pretentious /s
Rockstarjockey · 6 points · Posted at 18:25:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's very true though.
[deleted] · 1346 points · Posted at 14:53:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What a transistor is, despite it being the building block of modern technology.
Mad_Ludvig · 522 points · Posted at 17:25:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The semiconductor industry is just a giant scam for turning sand into money.
Shuk247 · 69 points · Posted at 19:08:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
They actually don't do anything. It's all an elaborate cover for the fact that electronics operate on sorcery.
SkaveRat · 46 points · Posted at 19:31:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's true. My stuff stopped working when I released the magic smoke inside
sneaklepete · 19 points · Posted at 19:51:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you inhale most of it when it's released you'll grow in power.
DudeImMacGyver · 5 points · Posted at 23:47:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think they call it cancering up.
Mobrien1996 · 6 points · Posted at 19:12:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
PFM
NoYoureTheSockPuppet · 38 points · Posted at 19:15:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
jimicus · 15 points · Posted at 19:08:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Don't for God's sake look at anything even remotely related to finance. They're all scams for turning money into more money.
[deleted] · 9 points · Posted at 19:11:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Money is just a giant scam that turns labor and wasted time into numbers.
TuxFuk · 0 points · Posted at 19:19:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sarcasm or are you serious?
klondike1412 · 16 points · Posted at 19:42:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
FIAT-based currencies and reserve-based lending do literally create money out of thin air, and create a debt that can only ever be paid back by future lending, creating an infinite cycle of debt. Each dollar created is allowed to be lent out several times, and each loan can have potentially infinite derivatives created upon it.
Modern financial systems are just a very long, drawn-out ponzi scheme that relies on countries in debt finding wealth by stealing it from other countries, particularly developing or third-world ones. Put up a dictator, stage your own coup against that dictator you installed, cause chaos and potentially war, secure the main city centres and install a new government that is friendly with international banks and willing to take a loan to rebuild the country, send in international conglomerates (from Haliburton at first to McDonalds, Walmart etc) to take the contracts to rebuild and enslave the workers with micro-loans and permanent debt-servitude (pushing them towards cheap labour and abusing their countries resources), and you have a slave country that is now pumping dollars into your "quasi-Empire" (which doesn't actually exist anywhere, it's international and in all major financial city centres).
Debt-based currencies literally turn countries into parasite-controlled bullies hustling other countries just trying to make it by. The US has been the military arm of this "invisible Roman empire" for the last hundred years at least. The people don't want to, but they always get tricked into doing it or not given a true democratic choice and they can't figure out how to stop. The Federal Reserve, Bank of International Settlements, and World Bank are truly untouchable.
IKnowUThinkSo · 2 points · Posted at 20:20:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think the singularity moment is fast approaching concerning production and fiat currency. We are just about to be in an age where one man who owns a factory can produce things with no human involvement at all. Once this happens en masse, only a few people will own "capital production" and be able to produce whatever they want without employing a single person (and, thus, no fiat currency being injected downward).
What happens to the workers/low class when the company producing food no longer has to pay anyone to produce it? Who will buy these mass produced items when all the currency is hoarded upwards?
[deleted] · 16 points · Posted at 19:25:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I was being somewhat facetious, but when you look into it, our monetary system is pretty scammy. Markets are often manipulated. The way humans derive and assign value can be pretty arbitrary and fleeting. The rich have a much easier time getting richer than the poor do. You can see a pyramid scheme-like structure when it comes to the wealthy ruling class.
Hmmm so yeah, guess I was being serious.
jsideris · -1 points · Posted at 19:42:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The value of money may be arbitrary but in the short run it is a contract that represents a unit of economic work that can be traded for goods and services with roughly the same value / unit of currency as the work you had to do to obtain the currency. It works out. The manipulation and printing kill currency. Too bad we don't have a choice but to work for the specific currency that the government tells us to work for.
GrossenCharakter · 1 points · Posted at 19:15:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oh man that's good. I'm stealing that.
AgoraiosBum · 1 points · Posted at 19:25:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There's a world market for what - 5 computers?
toastingz · 1 points · Posted at 19:29:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you ever code something that "feels like a hack but it works," just remember that a CPU is literally a rock that we tricked into thinking.
AnomalousAvocado · 1 points · Posted at 21:53:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I hate sand. It's coarse and it's irritating and it gets everywhere.
TheRealHooks · 732 points · Posted at 15:46:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I still don't understand how one speaker can create so many distinguishable frequencies at the same time. It's voodoo magic.
[deleted] · 779 points · Posted at 16:16:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
SailorArashi · 1327 points · Posted at 16:50:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Voodoo magic.
beerbeardsbears · 41 points · Posted at 17:53:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Or how vinyl records actually work. Absolutely black magic.
MaxuchoTGr · 43 points · Posted at 18:35:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Thats actually pretty low-tech, if I understand correctly.
Sound is just pressure waves caused by stuff vibrating.
Vibration means moving back and forth, so the purpose of a vinyl record is to shake the needle in tiny motions that produce a certain sound. From there it's just about amplifying that sound so people can hear.
beerbeardsbears · 50 points · Posted at 18:36:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Exactly. Black magic.
[deleted] · 18 points · Posted at 18:41:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And vinyl is black. Whoa.
Goldeagle1123 · 1 points · Posted at 19:36:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes. That is the joke.
Eyball440 · 2 points · Posted at 21:11:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Thatsthejoke.jpg
kenriko · 20 points · Posted at 18:47:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But hearing is just vibrating another speaker in your ear which vibrates a bone which hits another bone and there are these little hairs that the nerves pick up signals from which your brain then processes as sound. Like WTF. Nature u crazy.
wszechlesnybezsmiech · 9 points · Posted at 18:54:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And then you get tinnitus.
duck407 · 10 points · Posted at 19:09:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
mawp
KnilAdlez · 8 points · Posted at 19:36:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
He's got a hum in the drum. Listens to music to drown it out. That's why he's the best.
GG_ez · 6 points · Posted at 19:41:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
B-A-B-Y BABY
wsnwsk27 · 1 points · Posted at 02:01:13 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's how you get tinnitus
PM_ME__YOUR__FEARS · 8 points · Posted at 19:10:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Gravity is just clingy waves caused by stuff wanting to be together.
Maxamas2003 · 6 points · Posted at 19:37:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Matter is just stuff
telegetoutmyway · 1 points · Posted at 20:07:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And matter in turn could just be vibrations also.
Goldeagle1123 · 0 points · Posted at 19:37:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Except gravity is not a wave.
BroderFelix · 3 points · Posted at 20:04:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Gravity moves like waves with the speed of light.
PM_ME__YOUR__FEARS · 2 points · Posted at 19:44:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oh, what is it?
telegetoutmyway · 2 points · Posted at 20:07:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
We don't really know. We can describe the effect we observe but we're not quite sure what it is.
Edit: Gravitational waves would be ripples in the spacetime field caused by gravity. Doesn't mean gravity is a wave. Its probably a field. Similar to the higgs boson field that gives particles mass, gravitons would give the particles gravity.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 20:15:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Maybe it's a wave.
PM_ME__YOUR__FEARS · 2 points · Posted at 20:18:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
telegetoutmyway · 1 points · Posted at 22:15:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not sure if you're saying gravitational waves mean gravity is a wave or not, but that's like saying water is a wave because the ocean has waves.
Still thanks for linking it for those who haven't seen it. The universe is a neat place and I think more people should be interested in understanding what we think we know so far.
PM_ME__YOUR__FEARS · 1 points · Posted at 23:30:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Thanks, that's some interesting insight.
I had thought gravity was like light or electromagnetism where it radiates in waves.
Goldeagle1123 · -1 points · Posted at 21:22:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It is a "force".
PM_ME__YOUR__FEARS · 1 points · Posted at 22:17:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sorry I thought you were a science major or something.
But thanks for that uh... Definition.
Goldeagle1123 · 1 points · Posted at 13:20:35 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Nope, just a normal guy who knows that gravity is not a wave. If you want a better explanation, you are more than capable of using Google.
PM_ME__YOUR__FEARS · 1 points · Posted at 21:35:48 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I did, I was wondering what I was missing because that claims gravity propagates in waves.
rrr598 · 2 points · Posted at 19:38:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you put the needle on the record, spin it with your hand and listen closely, you can still hear the sounds, it's just very quiet.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:17:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I know how it works, but I don't get it.
Pickled_Wizard · 2 points · Posted at 20:04:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It blew my mind when I first heard the music from a record with no speaker attached(although it was obviously really quiet). I always thought it was encoded somehow, but nope.
evn0 · 6 points · Posted at 19:14:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Vinyl works exactly like a speaker works. If you could blow up the groove to take up the entire range that your speaker moves back and forth while operating, you'd see the groove and the position of the speaker line up.
4rch1t3ct · 2 points · Posted at 19:33:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
/r/blackmagicfuckery
La_Bamba_ · 4 points · Posted at 18:32:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
r/blackmagicfuckery
kenriko · 3 points · Posted at 18:45:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Voodooo magic made from some paper and a magnet. Like WTF>
Wildvodoomagic · 2 points · Posted at 19:16:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You called?
FadeCrimson · 2 points · Posted at 20:05:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Any sufficiently advanced technology, yada yada.
Hyndis · 2 points · Posted at 20:47:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I work in an internet/tech company and my understanding of how technology actually works is on par with WH40K.
Hail the Omnissiah! He is the God in the Machine, the Source of All Knowledge.
Because hell if I know how it actually works.
lousyname · 1 points · Posted at 19:28:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
PFM
PaulMorel · 1 points · Posted at 19:41:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's actually just addition of all the sounds/voltages.
DSP is not as complex as people think.
guywithhair · 1 points · Posted at 21:13:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I mean, there's a lot more to DSP than adding signals...
PaulMorel · 1 points · Posted at 21:21:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
lol. Yes, but in this case...
Kaoulombre · 1 points · Posted at 19:45:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
/r/blackmagicfuckery
lorzore · 1 points · Posted at 20:06:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It may not help but here are 2 theories that might grasp it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourier_transform and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laplace_transform https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrete_Fourier_transform . It might not say too much but it comes down to that you can see in the foerier domain which frequencies a signal has although the signal looks like nonsense in the time domain.
PhoenixReborn · 1 points · Posted at 21:02:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You want to talk about voodoo magic? Check out power line adapters.
GallicanCourier · 1 points · Posted at 23:30:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
r/blackmagicfuckery
[deleted] · 8 points · Posted at 17:51:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And its not at the same time, its a changing shape over time. The changing shapes all added together are the overall shape of all the frequencies at that point in time if you add them all together.
'Tis what the Fourier Transform is based on. You can take any complex waveform shape (continous waveform) and break it down into its individual frequencies that were used to create the wave shape in the first place.
SirEarlBigtitsXXVII · 16 points · Posted at 16:50:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But multiple speakers can do a far better job at it. That's why we have 2-way and 3-way speakers.
the_last_ordinal · 10 points · Posted at 17:33:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A single speaker can usually do just fine at representing a bunch of notes at the same time, as long as they are all within its range.
[deleted] · 9 points · Posted at 17:54:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
SirEarlBigtitsXXVII · 2 points · Posted at 18:02:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Electronic (active) crossovers alleviate the problems that are introduced with standard passive crossovers. The only downside is that you need a dedicated amplifier for each driver, which can get quite expensive.
Northwindlowlander · 4 points · Posted at 18:49:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How does that work? Magnets, ironically.
Singdancetypethings · 3 points · Posted at 18:51:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm a math person and it still amazes me that the combined complex waveform thing works.
deltaexdeltatee · 3 points · Posted at 19:17:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This took me forever to get. I play guitar and I spent soooo long trying to grasp how a single speaker could replicate the sounds coming off multiple strings plus the extra sounds from effects pedals. It was a huge lightbulb moment when I finally understood that it all comes out as one insanely-complicated waveform rather than a bunch of simple ones.
It's actually one of the coolest things about the human brain, that it's able to reverse-engineer the sonic mush coming into your ear and recognize the constituent parts it was originally made of. This is how you can understand someone talking when there's background noise - your brain recognizes certain parts of that waveform are coming from a human voice and "prioritizes" those parts so you can pick out the words.
Coincidentally I have a neurological condition where my brain doesn't do that as well as it should - I have severe difficulty understanding people when there's background noise because my brain sucks at pulling apart that complicated wave. It makes going to concerts less enjoyable too; everything just sounds like an indistinguishable roar at high volume :/
Jupiter999 · 1 points · Posted at 19:05:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That makes so much sense holy shit
JohniiMagii · 1 points · Posted at 19:13:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I thought they could make multiple waves at a time. So, the speaker may go across a 10mm distance every second, while doing a 1mm, shorter oscillation, every 1/10 of a second, and an even smaller 0.1mm oscillation every 1/100 of a second (using arbitrary numbers). Why couldn't speakers do this? Do you have specific knowledge that they make a combined waveform? How would that not just sound like a dumb jumble?
YPErkXKZGQ · 1 points · Posted at 20:09:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The distinction you're trying to make is a bit arbitrary, because the complex waveform is literally the same as the sum of it's simple parts. I'm on mobile or I'd link it, but if you're interested in reading about the mathematics of why this is true I highly recommend googling about the Fourier transform. Reading about the way dipole speakers generate their sounds might also be up your alley.
Hope that helps!
Lawlcopt0r · 1 points · Posted at 19:14:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's cool
Dragon_Fisting · 1 points · Posted at 19:17:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
when you break down anything complex it basically just becomes math.
notafuckingcakewalk · 1 points · Posted at 19:24:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, but how that.
Clever_Userfame · 1 points · Posted at 19:49:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Holy shit I've had this question for such a long time and never bothered to research it! Thanks!
AskMeIfImAReptiloid · 1 points · Posted at 21:04:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Thank you! This is what I always assumed, but now I know it to be true!
slappindabass123 · 1 points · Posted at 22:04:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You're awesome
issomethingmissing · -1 points · Posted at 17:56:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Thanks dong
FishPumpkin · 12 points · Posted at 17:44:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The distinct frequencies are scaled and added together to form a single waveform. Here is a simplified example of the waveform superposition of two frequencies.
gyroda · 6 points · Posted at 19:04:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's worth noting that any arbitrary wave can be broken down into those simpler sine waves.
Though you might need an infinite number of them to get it perfect....
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 19:10:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
altech6983 · 1 points · Posted at 19:47:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
More than that, the whole world. The whole world is built on close enough and good enough.
JohnnyHotshot · 5 points · Posted at 19:03:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Modern technology is all basically black magic. Imagine telling someone 200 years ago that you have a tiny metal and glass rectangle in your pocket that can light up and use invisible rays of light to connect to a bank of machinery that, using the states of how the smallest things our universe can make and some information from a metal box in the sky that is constantly falling sideways with some light readers, can send these invisible light rays back to your rectangle, and give you a detailed look at the roadmap to the next town over, which you will then follow with your small-explosion-powered metal carriage.
Or, that you use GPS on your phone to drive to another town (I hope that it was accurate enough lol, not a scientist)
Flethan · 2 points · Posted at 18:56:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You only need one ear to hear several sounds at one.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:19:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Flethan · 2 points · Posted at 19:39:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
While the hair cells may be differ slightly in the range of pitch the amplify and detect, each one is fundamentally the same and you could still 'hear' a variety of sounds together with only one hair cell. (Although it might be very quiet since your brain is usually getting signals from thousands of cells).
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:05:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Flethan · 1 points · Posted at 20:14:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Reading about it was actually very interesting. It's pretty amazing how well our body had perfected using eletrical cells and signals.
kaosf · 2 points · Posted at 19:14:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It says transistor - not transducer.
TheRealHooks · 3 points · Posted at 19:20:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Your mom's a transducer.
Imagine_Baggins · 2 points · Posted at 19:15:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Or how it can produce any human dialogue. Like how is a vibrating flap of rubber able to say "fuck"? That shit boggles my mind.
RiMiBe · 1 points · Posted at 18:48:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The real magic is not that the speaker can produce it, but that your ear can then pull them all out again.
evn0 · 1 points · Posted at 19:13:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The same way your eardrum creates a singular sound message to your brain out of all the frequencies hitting it despite being one piece of skin. A speaker is, to simplify things greatly, basically mimicking the movement your eardrum needs to make to near that specific set of sounds/timbres. We just "reverse" the process to make it broadcast the sound to you.
WonkyTelescope · 1 points · Posted at 19:19:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I had a rant in a thread awhile ago about how calling basic technological achievements magic is basically just throwing in the towel intellectually and
wholeywholly contributing to the embrace of ignorance seen in the modern world.. so yeah, don't do that.TheRealHooks · 2 points · Posted at 19:27:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Be careful not to fall while climbing up onto your high horse, dick.
Some things just don't make sense to me, and that's ok. I'm a musician, so I know how to make music and I understand music itself pretty damn well. However, no matter how much I read up and research on how the fuck a speaker works, it doesn't click with me...and that's fine.
Calling it voodoo magic is obviously a joke, and "wholey" is not a word. Please, don't throw in the towel on your grammar yet because that would contribute to the embrace of ignorance seen in the modern world.
WonkyTelescope · 0 points · Posted at 19:49:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I never said it wasn't okay to not understand some topic. Clearly there are too many fields for any one person to grasp them all at even the most basic level. However, it does not necessarily follow that we must equate those fields to something intangible and unable to understood.
Of course you were joking, I am simply asserting my belief that such off hand remarks are deleterious. An individual who regularly encounters such language could easily reach the conclusion that "it is too complicated for me to even try to comprehend, so I won't." A particularly terrible outcome for an individual avoiding seemingly confusing topics is reaching the conclusion that this understanding is being purposely obfuscated in order to oppress them. (This is one of the issues with climate change deniers, some of which will claim that the science is purposefully confusing in order to deceive the layperson.)
You can obviously speak however you prefer, and I was not trying to insult you, but I was trying to point out that your language has the potential to promote intellectual apathy.
TheRealHooks · 1 points · Posted at 19:56:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
deleteriousharmfulobfuscatedobscuredGeez, buddy, you should really read your comment back to yourself. You're dangerously close to r/iamverysmart territory with all this sesquipedalianism and high horse attitude about intellectualism.
WonkyTelescope · 0 points · Posted at 20:07:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Attack the premise of an argument.
Attack the outcomes proposed to follow from the premise.
Attack the way the argument was delivered.
Attack the person presenting the argument.
Only two of those are proper avenues to discredit a position. Do you know which two they are? Does your comment apply either of them?
TheRealHooks · 0 points · Posted at 20:22:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You're digging the hole further into r/iamverysmart land.
I already made my view known, and it doesn't need further expounding. However, you've been pretty pompous from the start, so I have no problem attacking that as well.
katzohki · 1 points · Posted at 19:21:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The problem is that sound is visualized typically in a time waveform. I think if it were represented in the frequency domain it becomes much more clear
TheRealHooks · 1 points · Posted at 19:28:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Especially in the 2-3k range.
PM_ME_PRETTY_EYES · 1 points · Posted at 19:32:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
ELI5 Answer:
They take all the sounds you hear and layer them together to make one super-sound. It's the same way your ears work -- you only have one eardrum (per ear, at least), so you can only really hear one sound at a time. Your ear hears the super-sound that is all the sounds combined, and then your brain filters the layered super-sound you hear. This is how you can focus on the person sitting in front of you at the coffee shop. In the same way, the speakers play the super-sound of all the instruments together and your brain filters it out so you can focus on just the trumpets.
vlmutolo · 1 points · Posted at 19:33:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I actually think most people don't understand the opposite of this. Most people get that a speaker produces a single waveform that we interpret as sound. What's more complex to understand is what you just stated: that the waveform is actually a superposition of many frequencies.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:52:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Superposition principle. It's actually the simplest way for things to work. If the speaker couldn't produce distinct frequencies (within the range of its capability), on what basis would it not be able to do that?
As a human being used to thinking in terms of "tasks" that have to be "juggled", it seems like the speaker is pulling off something hard; but it's actually the most sensible way for the physical world to work.
TheRealHooks · 2 points · Posted at 19:58:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
ELI3
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:16:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If I put a bunch of letter blocks in your toy box, the box doesn't care that there's an A next to a B. When you empty out the toy box, your ears are just like you. They can take any letter out of the box and see it as a separate letter, even though they were all in the same box. The box is stupid. It doesn't know anything about the blocks. It just knows how to hold them.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:59:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
r/blackmagicfuckery
portalguy15837 · 1 points · Posted at 20:19:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
(like most electronic devices) they work so quickly that they can reproduce audible frequencies by stringing thousands of individual amplitudes together. In the case of playing back a recording, the microphone essentially records the air pressure thousands of times a second, and then the speaker moves to reproduce the same air pressures at that speed in that order.
Sanctimonius · 1 points · Posted at 21:18:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't get how 1s and 0s are the building block for me getting my arse handed to me by 13year olds online. Like, I get logic and gates and all that. How it becomes this whole world in my monitor. Or how electricity becomes tv. Or phones. How does someone's voice travel in almost real time invisibly through the air to tell me to go fuck myself. Or the same soinds, broadcast in cinemas around the world. How is that red, or that explosion recording, written in magetised confetti and then reproduced exactly the same someplace else. It's a mind blowing, god-damn miracle.
icroak · 0 points · Posted at 19:50:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's easier if you picture two extremes. Picture a 1Hz tone. The speaker cone will be extending and retracting once per second. Now imagine the cone vibrating 1000 times per second. The speaker cone will be buzzing at the same time it's extending and retracting. You'll hear the 1kHz tone. You won't hear the 1 Hz tone since that's below human hearing.
CrossFox42 · 69 points · Posted at 17:30:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Electrical engineering is more magic than science to me. I get that it's all about completing and interrupting circuits, but the math, design, components, and theory behind it make my head hurt.
[deleted] · 15 points · Posted at 19:09:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I've been in school for it for nearly 2 years and am convinced it really is magic. Or aliens
Islandplans · 2 points · Posted at 19:54:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, but you're in a Magician's School... right?
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 20:25:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
haha yeah where else would you learn that shit??
Islandplans · 2 points · Posted at 23:53:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Good point.
[deleted] · 13 points · Posted at 19:13:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
To be fair, there's extensive use of imaginary numbers.
If you are a young EE student, I recommend Anant Agarwal.
FrodoSkywalker · 4 points · Posted at 19:56:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"Imaginary numbers are real"-Me, during my second year of college
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 23:19:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
They're certainly complex.
Admiral_Cumfart · 6 points · Posted at 19:14:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Seriously. Like how the fuck did human beings figure it out?
mrpunaway · 1 points · Posted at 22:05:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
They googled it.
Mondonodo · 29 points · Posted at 18:22:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Please explain for the stupid.
TheGypsyMagic · 43 points · Posted at 19:08:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A transistor is basically a switch that can be turned on and off using electricity. This may not seem super important, but it allows Electrical Engineers's (and, by extension, computers) to say "if". "If this is on, then send (or don't send) power here". The uses of this are up to the imagination.
Physically, a transistor is just three wafers of material (usually silicon) "doped" with differently charged material (such as Gallium or Phosphorous). The charge gradient allows current to flow only when current is applied to a specific side of the wafer sandwich.
brickmaster32000 · 10 points · Posted at 19:52:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Except that just barely scratches the surface of what a transistor is. A switch is just one of many configurations a transitor can be set as. A transistor is also an amplifier and there is allt types of black magic involved in that and it is a very important part of why transitors are important. Saying that a transistor is basically just a switch is a huge disservice to an incredible device and does indeed showcase some ignorance of how they actually work.
aultperry · 3 points · Posted at 19:56:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I was under the impression it was kinda like binary code where theres only on or off but you can use a large amount of them, can you recommend some further reading?
ATXBeermaker · 6 points · Posted at 20:01:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Think of a transistor more like a water faucet. Yes, you can have on and off states, but you can also use the knob to adjust flow rate.
lorzore · 1 points · Posted at 20:11:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is a basic amplifier circuit It may seem complicated, don't worry about it. Let's just say it amplifies 10 times so when you put in 0.1V you will get 1V out and with 0.2V in 2V out. this would not be possible if the transistor was just a simple on/off switch.
brickmaster32000 · -1 points · Posted at 20:19:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A college textbook and an EE degree? The on/off binary description people get is a very simplified version of just one aspect. It's closest to what programmers are concerned with so it tends to be latched on to as the description of how they work. This site seems to have pretty good descriptions but it is important not to just stop after reading the transistor equations. Their versatility comes from the many unintuitive circuit topologies that can transform how the circuit works. So from there you would want to move on to transistor biasing and various forms of amplifiers and feedback topologies but at that point, you really need to be able to do the math which in turn relies on a more complete knowledge of electrical circuits.
TheAdAgency · 2 points · Posted at 20:04:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Is this some common acronym the rest of us are supposed to know?
BebopJedi · 3 points · Posted at 20:21:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In this context, you can generally assume EE = Electrical Engineer, ME = Mechanical Engineer, context is key. If we were talking completing reactions instead of completing circuits, we'd be talking CE's (Chemical Engineers) and ME might be Materials Science Engineer. Most of my colleagues choose to say MechE , ChemE, etc. When discussing in front of non-engineers for this reason
ikorolou · 2 points · Posted at 20:18:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Electrical Engineers
ATXBeermaker · 2 points · Posted at 19:59:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
As an analog IC designer no, it's not a switch.
GalapagosRetortoise · 0 points · Posted at 20:13:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Calling it a switch is for idiots that can't count higher than one. It's more like a resistor that can transfer electrical charge across a resistor. Like a sink faucet.
ATXBeermaker · 2 points · Posted at 20:16:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Calling it a resistor is almost as simplistic, especially at more advanced process nodes.
Wolfman2032 · 16 points · Posted at 18:48:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah... most of these replies actually attempt to explain the thing that people don't understand. I'm wondering if the OP just said "transistors" in the hopes that someone would explain them to him.
[deleted] · 8 points · Posted at 19:10:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So you take two types of materials. Make a sandwich with a thin piece of cheese in the middle. Now these materials will not let a small voltage pass through. You can think of voltage as a sort of electrical pressure.
If you up the voltage(to the cheese) you get to a point where the pressure is enough to make the small sliver of cheese conductive, and at that point the 2 outsides pieces are connected together. You just turned a switch from off to on. Now combine billions of them together and you can do complex logic
Elkazan · 2 points · Posted at 19:16:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That sounds more like a diode than a transistor, unless you're applying voltage to the "cheese".
[deleted] · 6 points · Posted at 19:17:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Indeed, I meant to imply youre giving the voltage to the cheese slice. Some nice fried cheddar
ATXBeermaker · 0 points · Posted at 20:03:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Unless you add at least one more terminal, that's not a transistor analogy.Edit: Misunderstood the description at first. Still, a strange analogy for a transistor, and it doesn't explain why the bulk of the current would flow between the two non-cheese terminal and not to the cheese terminal.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 20:08:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Err yes it is? 2 outside pieces, one inside. Thats 3 connections.
ATXBeermaker · 0 points · Posted at 20:12:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Fair enough. I misunderstood your description at first. But still, you say that the "cheese" becomes conductive. In your analogy, why wouldn't currently flow into/out of the terminal connected to the cheese.
You're the second person to try to explain how bipolar transistor work and it baffles me since they're so much more complicated than MOSFETs, requiring at least a basic understanding of quantum mechanics, recombination lifetimes, etc. to grasp. Not to mention they're much less common than MOSFETs in practice.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 20:26:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
They do not require an understanding of quantum mechanics to dumb down an analogy. I mean the guy clearly didn't want a in depth scientific description or he wouldn't ask for it to be explained for stupid people, he'd look up the wiki article on semi conductors and doping and blah blah
I also didn't mention how the signal on the cheese can act as an amplifier either. Cause it was supposed to be a dumb explanation. What baffles me is that you're taking this seriously when we're responding to "explain for the stupid"
42ndtime · 8 points · Posted at 19:08:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A transistor is an electronic device that allows that has three pins - collector (C), base (B), and emitter (E). The current from B to E for an N type transistor controls the current from C to E. In simple terms of ON and OFF, let's say C is always ON, when B is OFF, E is OFF. But when B is ON, E connects to C and is also ON. You can connect these transistors together to make logical statements with two inputs, such as AND - which gives an ON output only if both inputs are ON, and OR - which gives an ON output if either or both of the inputs are ON. These statements chained together can form complex decision trees that can respond to user input. Pretty much every electrical device you ever have or will use functions almost entirely on transistor networks. GPU, CPU, RAM, all just a shitload of transistors chained together in specific ways that respond to inputs (Programs, user inputs, environment, etc) in predefined ways.
appleburn · 2 points · Posted at 19:17:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
ELI2
TuxFuk · 5 points · Posted at 19:22:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
poof
It's on!
42ndtime · 2 points · Posted at 19:25:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No, poof means it's dead.
42ndtime · 5 points · Posted at 19:24:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A transistor is a switch that can be turned on and off by another switch just like it. Depending on how you put the switches together, you can make them do different things. If you set them up to do a bunch of different things in the right order, you get a computer.
ATXBeermaker · 1 points · Posted at 20:04:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
MOS devices are much more prevalent and easier to understand.
turunambartanen · 5 points · Posted at 19:17:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
this is the best explaination i found so far. And i have watched a lot of youtube videos on that topic before it finally clicked for me.
AwesomelyHumble · 2 points · Posted at 19:13:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'll need a gif
PrimalMayhem · 3 points · Posted at 19:01:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
As I understand it, a transistor effectively amplifies a signal if the signal is above a certain trigger size, but it effectively acts as a switch in modern devices. 1 if the signal it's being given is large and so the output is even larger, and 0 if the signal is small and so the output is small.
Elkazan · 4 points · Posted at 19:22:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In modern digital devices, transistors do indeed operate in either "saturated" or "cutoff" mode, which is how EEs call the completely-on and completely-off regimes.
Some devices, however, most importantly in the audio world, make use of a transistor's dynamic range where the output is an amplified version of the input. For audio, a designer must ensure never to let the input (no matter what it is) force the transistor into saturated or cutoff regimes, as this will create hearable artifacts in the amplifier output (such as distortion, overtones, clipping, etc)
ATXBeermaker · 1 points · Posted at 20:26:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'll try my hand at this since, imo, the other description are either woefully incomplete or somewhat misleading.
There are several types of transistors whose behavior depends on various physical properties. But, the most basic idea is that a transistor is an electrical element that has three connections, or terminals. Let's call them A, B, and C. Terminal A is insulated from the other two, but the voltage between A and B determine the conductivity between C and B. It's analogous to how a water faucet valve controls the rate of flow of water coming out of the faucet. Water pressure would be like the voltage between C and B, whereas the number of turns of the knob would be the voltage between A and B.
From this you can imagine treating the faucet as a switch, where the water is either flowing or not. Or you can treat it as more continuous with varying rates of flow, etc. The former would be your digital circuits and the latter would be your analog circuits.
PirateGaming · 43 points · Posted at 16:47:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A really small rock that has lightning in it.
Hypothesis_Null · 37 points · Posted at 17:49:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Actually it has magic smoke inside.
Don't let it escape or it'll stop working.
PirateGaming · 24 points · Posted at 18:12:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's why CPU's are so hot, all that smoke increases the pressure inside the CPU's steam engine, increasing the temperature.
Hypothesis_Null · 12 points · Posted at 18:42:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's why computers have towers; for cooling.
Foxkilt · 11 points · Posted at 19:02:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Understanding the physics behind it (and the math necessary to understand the physics) takes basically a BSc (and even when you are able to say what's happening it will take some time for that to sink in). Not surprising that most people do not.
Statek · 1 points · Posted at 19:26:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, but the basics are simple. There's a piece of silicon between two pieces of wire that let's you connect or disconnect them if it's given power or not.
csimonson · 8 points · Posted at 17:38:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Real life "If, Then, Else" Statement
pta2002 · 15 points · Posted at 17:52:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's more like a light switch except you turn it on with electricity
not_better · 4 points · Posted at 18:05:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Wouldn't that be a relay?
handcuffed_ · 4 points · Posted at 18:08:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Nah a switch is a switch a relay is a relay. A light switch is a single pole single throw switch. A relay is more like an if then statement.
not_better · 2 points · Posted at 18:14:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Isn't that exaclty like your "A relay is more like an if then statement." ?
handcuffed_ · 1 points · Posted at 18:55:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well you physically flip a switch not a relay
not_better · 1 points · Posted at 19:38:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The relay is often also physically switched, just not by a human hand but by electrical current.
handcuffed_ · 1 points · Posted at 19:42:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
True, but I did say you flip it.
ballsdeepinasquealer · 1 points · Posted at 19:13:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You're oversimplifying light switches, my friend.
handcuffed_ · 1 points · Posted at 19:39:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What does that even mean, light switches are the most basic kind of switch there is..
muaddeej · 1 points · Posted at 19:44:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I still struggle with my switch at home. It has 4 switches and they all control 1 light. I wanted to replace them with some smart switches, but it got complicated.
handcuffed_ · 1 points · Posted at 20:05:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's not as hard as you think. If there different brightness settings then it's just resistors. Most likely though one goes to the top lights one to bottom, one for the fan etc.
muaddeej · 1 points · Posted at 20:13:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It had something to do with traveler wires and then the GE smart switch that I wanted to use required some kind of special wiring for traveler wires or something because it's OK if a normal switch doesn't have constant current to it, but if a smart switch doesn't have current then it no-workies.
It was pretty confusing. I'm sure I could have figured it out, but I wound up just putting in smart light bulbs instead.
Edit: Sorry if it wasn't clear, but I'm not talking about 1 switch with multiple settings, I'm talking about 4 switches that control 1 bank of lights in the ceiling fan. Sort of like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiway_switching#Traveler_system_2
ballsdeepinasquealer · 1 points · Posted at 14:20:40 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
You said a light switch is single pole single throw. While those do exist, there are also many other types of light switches. Therefore, your statement was an oversimplification.
handcuffed_ · 1 points · Posted at 17:37:59 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm talking about a regular ass most commonly used ass lightswitch my man. You're talking specialty.
ballsdeepinasquealer · 1 points · Posted at 17:41:35 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
No. Ever hear of an S3 or S4 light switch? They are regular ass commonly used ass switches my man. They are not specialty.
handcuffed_ · 1 points · Posted at 17:53:08 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Bruh http://imgur.com/nSax1gR
lorzore · 2 points · Posted at 19:59:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not really transistors can be used to make amplifiers because it's not just a simple on of switch, like this
pta2002 · 1 points · Posted at 20:12:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oh, didn't know that! Cool.
However, I think the light switch thing is still a useful analogy given that it's what you often use them for.
lorzore · 2 points · Posted at 20:15:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That is true but might give the wrong impression on what a transistor actual does further giving in to the what 90% of people don't know, however with transistors I'm not even sure if 1% of the population knows what a transistor does.
klondike1412 · 1 points · Posted at 19:45:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It'd be like a light dimmer switch with modes/areas of operation that you control by changing the current in the wire that passes next to it, or something like that.
pta2002 · 1 points · Posted at 19:46:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Wouldn't that be a mosfet?
klondike1412 · 1 points · Posted at 20:01:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
BJT or MOSFET, but I'm pretty sure it's still basically the same principle in a vacuum tube or any non-exotic transistor. It's always a matter of modulating one current with another, but with useful (non-linear) modes of operation.
efskap · 3 points · Posted at 18:32:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No, it's more like a faucet. A relay is an if/then/else.
Foxkilt · 2 points · Posted at 19:01:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's just cheating. The hard part with transistors is when you start considering the non-saturated regions.
csimonson · 1 points · Posted at 21:09:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Never said it's a 1 to 1 comparison
undercooked_lasagna · 40 points · Posted at 16:53:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't understand what a sibling who used to be your brother has to do with technology
Mondonodo · 5 points · Posted at 18:22:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Har har har.
tymme · 2 points · Posted at 19:23:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm older and so still think cross-dressing nun.
CourierOfTheWastes · 3 points · Posted at 18:27:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's the thing that doesn't exist in Fallout.
Oh and the thing that Tony Stark was throbbing hard for in his first appearance ever.
wishiwererobot · 3 points · Posted at 19:07:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I've taken three years worth of college coursework in Electrical Engineering, and I still don't know what a transistor does.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 19:10:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Why should someone who doesn't work with them know what they are?...
Swords_Not_Words · 2 points · Posted at 19:47:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
They don't need to, people just like appearing smart on the internet
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 19:48:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes I think it is actually ridiculous considering the amount of science and math that intertwines with them.
turunambartanen · 2 points · Posted at 19:14:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"whenever you have problems with you code, remember that a CPU is basically a rock we tricked into thinking." ~some Meme, i think.
Regarding your comment: The actual mechanics on a electron + Atom level are super difficult to understand. I watched a lot of youtube videos, all trying to describe the same thing. this is the best one i found. after that i finally understood it (a little bit)
JeanPhilippe101 · 1 points · Posted at 19:15:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I looked it up because I wanted to be in the 10% of the population.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:31:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
GalapagosRetortoise · 1 points · Posted at 20:15:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's only going to get worse.
Brenthalomue · 1 points · Posted at 19:33:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
TIL how important transistors are.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:36:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And they're literally in everything! But it's also not surprising how few people know what a transistor is or does. A lot of people don't care how something works, just that it does work.
growlingbear · 1 points · Posted at 19:44:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Isn't that when you had a brother, but they had an operation to become a girl?
CaptainSnippy · 1 points · Posted at 19:59:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think it was the transistor that wasn't invented in the Fallout games universe. Led to people using a bunch of crappy technology and advancing in strange ways, and running out of resources and ending society. Maybe it was just a theory.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:47:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Doesn't really matter unless you are an electrical engineer.
Jamessimmons35 · 1 points · Posted at 21:14:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The building block of modern technology is blocks
andinuad · 0 points · Posted at 19:47:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So?
Gluons are also building blocks of modern technology, but that doesn't mean that people should understand them.
tradingten · 2468 points · Posted at 14:19:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
correlation does not equate to causation
poopellar · 2419 points · Posted at 14:41:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
100% of people who read this comment, fart.
Sislar · 650 points · Posted at 15:49:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Everyone that consumes Dihydrogen Monoxide will die.
RiotShields · 39 points · Posted at 16:29:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Of course, everyone that doesn't die is keeping away from DHMO. Therefore, not consuming DHMO is a major factor in achieving immortality.
Sislar · 14 points · Posted at 16:59:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Perhaps you need a class in causality
ForgottenPotato · 11 points · Posted at 19:01:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
fucking casuals
jediminer543 · 9 points · Posted at 19:57:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
FTFY
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:09:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
RiotShields · 7 points · Posted at 19:41:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
thatsthejoke.jpg
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:52:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
bert_the_destroyer · 1 points · Posted at 20:21:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I mean it is true, everything that consumes water dies, but so does everything that doesn't. So it is true
Lallner · 0 points · Posted at 18:40:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think the chemical formula is spelled H2O (with the 2 as a subscript if I knew how to do that)
Skipachu · 12 points · Posted at 18:59:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When everything is superscript, the one regular character looks like a subscript. H2O
MyFingerPointeth · 1 points · Posted at 20:14:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
when everything is superscript nothing is superscript?
RiotShields · 4 points · Posted at 18:53:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Reddit, at this time, has superscripts but not subscripts.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 18:58:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Lallner · 6 points · Posted at 19:03:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Right - I get the joke. I'm just pointing out that if you try to shorten Dihydrogen Monoxide with it's chemical formula, it would not be DHMO, but H2O, which kind of let's the cat out of the bag, so to speak. So, one ought not shorten the chemical to its formula to keep the integrity of the joke.
[deleted] · -7 points · Posted at 18:16:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Bro, you can say water,
[deleted] · 6 points · Posted at 18:24:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's part of the joke.
OriginalName123123 · 9 points · Posted at 17:07:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Everyone who doesn't consume DHMO will also die,so pick your poison!
[deleted] · -1 points · Posted at 18:30:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
DeathsIntent96 · 3 points · Posted at 19:56:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What is your comment trying to say?
Imalwaysneverthere · 2 points · Posted at 02:26:10 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's saying call 911. I'm having a stroke
OriginalName123123 · 1 points · Posted at 12:53:48 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Uh what?
I know that DHMO is H2O aka. water so I just stated sarcastically that not drinking water will also in fact kill you.
By the 9 upvotes I assume most people got the joke.
ianiffty · 1 points · Posted at 14:42:34 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
my apologies kind sir. I was as drunk as a skunk and was being a pedantic fuck. Sorry
elfonite · 4 points · Posted at 18:01:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
One day
throwaway4anger · 4 points · Posted at 18:17:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
everyone who has ever had lips has died. conclusion: lips are poison.
Augenmann · 1 points · Posted at 21:00:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
loogie97 · 3 points · Posted at 18:56:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
http://www.dhmo.org/facts.html
stinkyfastball · 3 points · Posted at 18:57:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So you have independently verified that there are no immortal people? If I might ask, how did you go about doing that?
SPACKlick · 5 points · Posted at 18:49:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Strictly speaking being human hasn't been observed to result in death often enough for statistical confidence that life is always fatal. (only 93.15% of humans who've ever lived have died)
wolvern76 · 2 points · Posted at 18:42:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not me
Denziloe · 1 points · Posted at 18:33:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes but so does everyone who doesn't, so there isn't actually a correlation here in the first place.
Goyu · 1 points · Posted at 18:57:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Everyone who doesn't will also die, probably a lot faster.
ordaia · 1 points · Posted at 19:01:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Premise A) Everyone who consumes Dihydrogen Monoxide will die.
Premise B) Sislar consumes Dihydrogen Monoxide and does not die.
Conclusion) Not everyone who consumes Dihydrogen Monoxide will die.
overbend · 1 points · Posted at 19:10:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm hoping to show the Dihydrogen Monoxide website to my fourth graders this year to teach them that a) correlation =/= causation and b) you need to know how to identify reputable sources vs. non-reputable sources.
iamnotsurewhattoname · 1 points · Posted at 19:25:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But only because everyone that consumes dihydrogen monoxide farts
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:30:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Please don't mention this to the president.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:33:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Everyone that refrains from consuming Dihydrogen Monoxide will also die.
tigerscomeatnight · 1 points · Posted at 19:40:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The corollary to that is that everyone who has drank water has died.
Hates_escalators · 1 points · Posted at 19:46:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Here is a website where you can read all about this dangerous chemical the government is intentionally feeding your children.
This whole thing is /s btw
OneFinalEffort · 1 points · Posted at 20:00:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Everyone that never did are dead already.
AberrantRambler · 1 points · Posted at 20:38:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But not every two, so it appears at least some numbers remain safe for now.
c0d3s1ing3r · 1 points · Posted at 00:06:40 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
The human condition only has an 80% mortality rate.
hullabaloonatic · 1 points · Posted at 01:17:56 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
There are still people alive today that have had dihydrogen monoxide, so you'll have to wait and see if they die before you say EVERYONE who does will.
ScrithWire · 1 points · Posted at 18:36:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But the consumption of DiHydrogen Monoxide doesn't cause their deaths.
Sislar · 1 points · Posted at 18:39:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I never said there did just that there is 100% correlation.
ScrithWire · 1 points · Posted at 19:50:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I never said you did. :)
Hates_escalators · 1 points · Posted at 19:49:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You can spend the rest of your life underwater.
mundozeo · 13 points · Posted at 16:45:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So you're saying this comment is why I just farted. It all makes sense now.
TheMisiak · 11 points · Posted at 16:49:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not even kidding I farted while reading this. Bravo good sir.
[deleted] · 6 points · Posted at 18:30:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Someone tell me if that comma is right. I feel like it shouldn't be there.
[deleted] · 8 points · Posted at 18:39:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's wrong. I too feel like it shouldn't, be there.
brutusclyde · 1 points · Posted at 19:57:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's wrong. And you read it as if "fart" was a noun of direct address, didn't you?
No-Time_Toulouse · 2 points · Posted at 20:05:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I read it as a imperative, as in "Would 100% of those of you who read this comment please fart?"
onioning · 2 points · Posted at 16:50:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Is there really no such thing as a person who doesn't fart? So many human abnormalities, it must be true of someone.
Erinysceidae · 2 points · Posted at 18:50:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I believe colostomy bags remove the ability to fart.
kysomyral · 2 points · Posted at 19:17:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Aww. I find that truly sad for some reason. :(
Erinysceidae · 1 points · Posted at 19:19:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well, anecdotes state that with a bit of practice you can make the colostomy bag give a fart noise, and the stench is hellacious, so there is a small consolation.
Throwaway08205 · 1 points · Posted at 17:55:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Considering the fact that everybody poops, and the sound of your asscheeks rubbing together produces the "Fart" noise. My guess would be that everybody at one point or another farts.
onioning · 1 points · Posted at 18:51:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There's a difference between pooping and passing gas though. It's the gas that makes a fart a fart. Without the gas it's just a farting noise.
Noyes654 · 2 points · Posted at 14:08:26 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I pushed one out just for you bb <3
me7e · 1 points · Posted at 17:54:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
this is so dumb, I was literally farting while reading it.
TheRedJoker93 · 1 points · Posted at 17:54:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It is known.
bigblackkittie · 1 points · Posted at 18:01:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
but how many fart while reading this comment?
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:22:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Also 100% of people who don't read the comment.
c24w · 1 points · Posted at 18:25:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm going to need an upvote if you farted.
For science.
Glebatron · 1 points · Posted at 18:26:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I beg to differ. Millions of people have colostomies and it is a growing disability that we need to be aware off.
NoFapMat · 1 points · Posted at 18:26:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I swear i'm not lying, I was farting as I started to begin reading this comment... And it has gold? I'm kinda scared...
Denziloe · 1 points · Posted at 18:34:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's not what correlation means.
ScrithWire · 1 points · Posted at 18:35:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But the reading of that comment didn't cause them to fart.
Lallner · 1 points · Posted at 18:36:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Wait, how could reading this comment make people fart?
FroggyWatcher · 1 points · Posted at 18:41:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Username checks out?
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:43:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Therefore, if you read this comment you will fart.
MrCrash · 1 points · Posted at 18:52:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
is that a command?
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:56:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This isn't true.
xerrio · 1 points · Posted at 18:57:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Dude! I farted reading the "100%" part of your message! Does it count?
silent_guy1 · 1 points · Posted at 18:59:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I laughed and then farted. You are right. Your comment made me fart.
(Sampling bias)
Trogdorocks · 1 points · Posted at 19:02:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
100% of people that made this comment, added an unnecessary comma.
InternalFarts · 1 points · Posted at 19:14:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Farts are disgusting and jokes about them are so childish it kills me.
kravechocolate · 1 points · Posted at 19:18:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You mean reading causes farting? We must ban reading at once for the sake of public decency.
tlalocstuningfork · 1 points · Posted at 19:20:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I read this as you telling them to fart. I'll happily oblige.
TheMarkHasBeenMade · 1 points · Posted at 19:21:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well you didn't have to call us all farts at the end of that :(
no1ninja · 1 points · Posted at 19:27:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
LIAR, it was shit... :{
GuidoGreg · 1 points · Posted at 19:28:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ha, jokes on you! I can't read!
Wait . . .
Captain_Gainzwhey · 1 points · Posted at 19:32:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I farted while reading this comment
usr_bin_laden · 1 points · Posted at 19:49:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Glorious Leader has no butthole.
mastertwisted · 1 points · Posted at 19:51:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That reminds me...
Ahhhh
manatca · 1 points · Posted at 19:54:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
whoooa, was in the middle of letting one rip as I read that
SleazyMak · 1 points · Posted at 19:55:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This comment made me fart
FrederikTwn · 1 points · Posted at 20:01:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Thanks for letting us you farted...
KahMaL_ToE · 1 points · Posted at 20:04:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I literally just farted halfway into reading this, then I saw the last word and was mind blown, like what the fuck are you a wizard?
YohnYassidy · 1 points · Posted at 12:18:51 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
coincidentally, I actually farted while I was reading this comment. No lie.
should_be_working94 · 232 points · Posted at 14:35:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
i see so many people not getting this concept but thank god my math teacher showed me this website -> http://www.tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations
grumpyold · 73 points · Posted at 16:04:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
reminds of the joke about someone clapping at a rate of 1 per second, and saying, every time I clap my hands, a child dies of starvation. Someone in the audience says, stop clapping then.
Hates_escalators · 9 points · Posted at 19:50:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A man goes to the doctor, he says "Doctor, it hurts when I raise my arm like this." And then he raises his arm. The doctor says "Then don't raise your arm like that!"
noms_on_pizza · 3 points · Posted at 20:58:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Bono
should_be_working94 · 1 points · Posted at 07:25:37 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
well obviously he has the power to end life with just a clap ... and the audience is just a clap away from death
mrosead · 6 points · Posted at 18:17:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
People die getting tangled in the bedsheets?!
InjuredGingerAvenger · 2 points · Posted at 19:11:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I was more shocked that there were steam related murders.
growlingbear · 7 points · Posted at 19:32:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Probably wives who got fed up with their husbands buying games on the Steam sale and not playing them.
InjuredGingerAvenger · 8 points · Posted at 19:42:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Is this the male equivalent of women buying clothes they never wear just because they were on sale?
growlingbear · 4 points · Posted at 19:42:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Pretty much
craignons · 4 points · Posted at 19:41:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
but
HOW exactly do you die getting tangled in the bedsheets? HOWWWWW
InjuredGingerAvenger · 5 points · Posted at 19:45:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I imagine it's people with some physical weakness. The elderly, very young children, or the handicapped.
[deleted] · 22 points · Posted at 15:15:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The great thing about this site is that it has a second layer of learning: stats are bullcrap.
The data points don't actually even correlate beyond a positive/negative trend. Then the scale of one stat is changed to more closely match the other. For example, the "cheese consumption vs people injured from being tangled by sheets" pairing uses .5 lbs increments for cheese and 200 increments for people. Had the exact same data been presented with say, 1lb increments of cheese and 100 increments of people, the data would look completely different
InjuredGingerAvenger · 4 points · Posted at 19:18:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What if producing cheese was extremely dangerous and 1 lb of cheese came at the cost of 400 lives on average? While obviously that's an absurd example, and obviously you can skew data to represent correlation more prominently than it exists, there can be a legitimate reason to have two different scales to show a correlation. To remain objectice, it should just be made clear to everybody that they are on different scales and why that's the case.
PunchedSalad · 8 points · Posted at 14:45:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That just made my day
growlingbear · 3 points · Posted at 19:30:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I wanna know why so many people are dying from being tangled in their sheets.
not-quite-a-nerd · 2 points · Posted at 16:17:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is one of the best things I have ever read, thank you so much
Dfiggsmeister · 2 points · Posted at 18:11:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I just opened that link and started laughing my ass off. I need to show this at work with the other statisticians; we will get no work done that day.
Nmaka · 2 points · Posted at 19:10:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The fucking maine divorce rate made me laugh omg
InjuredGingerAvenger · 2 points · Posted at 19:12:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I like to find (obviously not accurate) excuses for correlation on that website. Like maybe pizza is the food of choice for engineering graduation parties. The more graduations, the more pizza and therefore mozzarella cheese consumed.
othellia · 2 points · Posted at 19:19:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I was like, "please let this be the website with Nic Cage and pool drowning." Thank you for not disappointing.
altech6983 · 2 points · Posted at 19:44:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That is a great website
AnttiV · 2 points · Posted at 19:53:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I must upvote everytime someone posts that because that website is hilarious.
redacted_pterodactyl · 2 points · Posted at 20:48:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I have that book, its awesome
[deleted] · 20 points · Posted at 18:12:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
SpokenMemeArtist · 60 points · Posted at 15:20:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Correlation can imply causation. You have to look at the data and account for confounding variables or methodology errors
K20BB5 · 39 points · Posted at 16:42:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Way too many people learned correlation doesn't mean causation* and now try to use that line of thinking to refute any correlation
challah_is_bae · 3 points · Posted at 17:21:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Don't you mean the other way around?
K20BB5 · 1 points · Posted at 18:10:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Woops, yup thanks for that
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 18:46:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yup.
andinuad · 0 points · Posted at 19:27:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"Correlation doesn't imply causation" means that just correlation alone is not enough to prove that there is causation. So if someone just shows correlation and then based on only that says that there is causation, then it is valid to refute that by stating "Correlation doesn't imply causation".
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 21:43:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's too much work for people who care most about simply appearing intelligent. It's much easier to repeat something one doesn't understand to try to impress people.
andinuad · -1 points · Posted at 19:25:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You in your second sentence essentially stated that you need more than correlation to show causation, hence your second statement contradicts your first statement.
SpokenMemeArtist · 1 points · Posted at 20:44:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My first statement was that correlation can imply causation. I am using imply to mean that correlation provides some evidence for causation, but in order to make a conclusion about causation, you need to examine all the evidence. I'm not saying anything that your average statistician would disagree with
andinuad · 1 points · Posted at 20:46:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I am not familiar with the education of statisticians, but I will point out that following convention for "imply" applies to natural sciences:
"A implies B" means that if A is true, then B must be true.
jbaird · 15 points · Posted at 18:09:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Correlation doesn't imply causation, but it does waggle its eyebrows suggestively and gesture furtively while mouthing 'look over there'.
Although I think the reddit hivemind sometimes takes 'correlation is not causation' to mean 'correlation is completely meaningless' when that's not the case
dubman42 · 6 points · Posted at 16:37:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
However, causation does correlate.
I find some people like to quote this as a means to ignore fact.
shleppenwolf · 3 points · Posted at 17:37:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But when you're looking for causation, correlation can tell you where to look first...
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 20:04:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
From my time on Reddit, I'd say the opposite is true:
90% of Redditors don't understand that "correlation doesn't equal causation" is not some profoundly powerful magic wand that instantly dismisses the results or conclusions from scientific studies.
It's only a valid criticism of a study if the authors of the study made the mistake of confusing correlation with causation. From my experience, very few scientists do this. Exceedingly few.
Also, correlations are perfectly valid things to report in scientific studies. Often, they're the things that we're looking for.
AgentElman · 5 points · Posted at 16:16:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Thank you for accurately stating this. Correlation implies causation but does not equate to it.
Science consists of looking at correlations and running experiments to determine causation.
andinuad · 5 points · Posted at 19:31:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You'll have to be careful about context. In science, "A implies B" means that if A is true, then B must be true.
Analogously "A is equivalent to B" means that if A is true then B must be true, and if B is true then A must be true.
"Correlation does not imply causation" is therefore correct.
AgentElman · 1 points · Posted at 19:38:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Good to know. Is that a science thing or just a math thing?
andinuad · 1 points · Posted at 19:56:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Any natural sciences at the very least due to that they use mathematics as an important tool.
throwaway03022017 · 5 points · Posted at 17:15:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Bullshit.
In 1600, there was no global warming and lots of pirates.
In 2017, there's lots of global warming and like no pirates.
Pirates made the whole world cool.
812many · 3 points · Posted at 18:12:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There are lots of pirates still going strong around the Horn of Africa. Now I'm beginning to doubt whether global warming exists...
throwaway03022017 · 1 points · Posted at 18:50:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I thought the navy took them all out?
812many · 1 points · Posted at 18:52:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The pirates are all based out of Somalia, and the navy isn't landing there. They can discourage it via patrols, but the only way to eliminate it is to eliminate the source, and no one is working on the source.
throwaway03022017 · 2 points · Posted at 18:55:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oh thank god! No wonder this summer has been miserable and cold, pirates are alive and well!
PC509 · 2 points · Posted at 18:28:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But, that saying does seem to end up in damn near every political Facebook comment section...
Therefore, politics suck. :)
letmeexplainitforyou · 2 points · Posted at 19:18:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's more correctly stated:
"Correlation does not necessarily equate to causation", because sometimes, it does.
dziugass · 2 points · Posted at 19:26:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
English isn't my primary language, can someone explain to me what these things are?p
bystandling · 2 points · Posted at 19:49:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Correlation: An observed relationship between two quantitative (numerical) variables (things you can measure), e.g. during months with more ice cream sales, there are also more drownings. Technically correlation actually refers to the numerical "r" value which tells you how strongly two variables are related.
Causation: With the above correlation, you probably would not see a decrease in drowning deaths if you banned ice cream sales. That is because selling ice cream isn't what causes drowning, it's just that more people swim in the summer, and more people buy ice cream in the summer. Just because you can measure a relationship, doesn't mean that one variable causes the other.
However, it does mean that you should be looking for why the two variables are related, and it is possible that one causes the other. You just can't conclude it for sure.
Cruithne · 2 points · Posted at 19:52:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But it does correlate with causation.
cedarwulfuno · 2 points · Posted at 19:54:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"People die when they are killed".
PedroV100 · 1 points · Posted at 18:40:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
-correlation definitely winks and points at causation though
from xkcd or somewhere
srcarruth · 1 points · Posted at 18:57:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
are you suggesting there is no real connection between pool drownings and Nick Cage movies?!
HelloImRIGHT · 1 points · Posted at 19:09:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
aka marijuana is not a gateway drug
John_Q_Deist · 1 points · Posted at 19:18:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When ice-cream consumption increases, so does the murder rate.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:58:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I read that as correlation does not equate to castration
geoffbutler · 1 points · Posted at 19:59:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
As is beautifully illustrated here.
Alptitude · 1 points · Posted at 20:06:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So the problem with this is that of the people who know this, 99% don't understand that it's bullshit.
It's a short statement meant to remind people not to assume correlation implies causation. However, causality is a huge topic. You have Humean causality, mechanical causality (a la Nancy Cartwright), economic causality (e.g. Kevin Hoover), Bayesian interpretations of causality, as well as other musings that creep into social and natural sciences. Hell technically Humean causality can be summarized as correlations where one event (cause) temporally precedes another (effect) and that they are contiguous.
Causality can often be reduced to correlations depending on the context.
Source: PhD with a concentration in philosophy of science and the social sciences
Patzer111 · 1 points · Posted at 20:12:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What's your point?
fredemu · 1 points · Posted at 20:16:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is probably more true these days than it ever was. Statistics are the best way to lie because of this exact fact.
X person was within Y demographic doesn't mean that Z happened because of Y. It can, but we can never be too quick to assume.
(in before a far left/right person comes in to explain why it only applies to values of Y that implicate the other side).
KingOCarrotFlowers · 1 points · Posted at 20:42:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
People misunderstanding this rule is a bit of a pet peeve of mine, so I'm going to clarify:
Correlation alone does not imply causation.
When people reduce this to correlation =/= causation, it makes it seem like inductive arguments are invalid, which is not good because the vast majority of research science is based on inductive arguments.
So a correlation between X and Y certainly can imply that X causes Y, if you have sufficient reason to believe that there is a relationship between X and Y.
For instance: I fill a bowl in my bathroom with cat food every morning. Some mornings, I sleep in later than usual, and on these mornings my cat tends to follow me around meowing incessantly. If I took the "correlation=/=causation" argument literally, it would be improper for me to conclude that my cat follows me around because he expects food that he hasn't gotten yet, even though that is clearly what's happening here.
The missing piece of data, the extant relationship between the correlated elements which allows me to imply causality (though clearly a more rigorous test with a larger sample size is needed to make the results publishable), is the knowledge that the cat food in that bowl is my cat's primary source of food, and he needs to eat that food to live.
That's how inductive reasoning works: find two correlated elements and try to see if there's a relationship between them which would allow you to assume that the relationship is causal in some way. If, after a test, it turns out the relationship isn't causal, rinse and repeat until you are more or less sure (p>.01) that the relationship is causal.
cucumbermoon · 1 points · Posted at 15:30:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My first year teaching, I spent like three weeks trying to get my psychology students to understand this. I think about half of them understood by the end, which I've decided to count as a win. But we have to get to them earlier than Junior year, I think. Statistics are used so much in school before then, it's very hard to break the blind dependence on correlation once they have developed it.
Spazmer · 1 points · Posted at 16:58:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But fat people drink diet coke, so diet coke must make you fat! /s
BurnedOut_ITGuy · 1 points · Posted at 15:12:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Except when it does equal causation. People who smoke have a higher rate of lung cancer than people who don't even when you control for other factors for example. Overweight people have higher rates of heart disease than those who aren't.
DoPeopleEvenLookHere · 12 points · Posted at 15:37:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No, Causation causes correlation. Being obese has a direct effect on your heart, increasing risk of heart disease. This is causes the correlation.
Correlation is a tool that means we can say, hey these things are close, is there a cause/effect relationship here?
BurnedOut_ITGuy · -4 points · Posted at 15:42:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You can't come to causation without correlation otherwise you are assuming your conclusion. If we say that lung cancer is caused by smoking we're already assuming our conclusion. To do it right we have to look at correlation first, not causation. We have to look at populations of smokers vs non-smokers, control for any variables we can and then we have a correlation. From that correlation we can come to causation, not the other way around. We have to start from correlation though.
DoPeopleEvenLookHere · 7 points · Posted at 15:54:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sure you can. You can look at the underlying controls of a system. Pressing the top of my pen puts pressure on the ink cartridge, and through a little plastic piece pressed up against a spring locks the ink cartridge far enough down the pen to write with. No statistics needed there.
We use correlation when it's not easy to properly model the system.
That's literally what I said. I'm saying that you can't really say causation doesn't equal correlation except when it does. It's still the other way around.
So I guess I'm arguing smaller semantics than I first thought. It's a one way relationship. There is an underlying cause to something that when we look at the statics, allows us to see correlation. It doesn't work the other way around.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:58:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
DoPeopleEvenLookHere · 2 points · Posted at 19:05:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm not saying it's not a valuable tool.
I'm saying you can't say correlation equals causation when it does. You can start with a correlation and look for causations, but just because it's there doesn't mean there is a causation. And saying "except it is equal when it does" is still incorrect.
tophermeyer · 5 points · Posted at 15:44:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What you're saying is that strong correlations tend to have causal links. Which is totally true. But the math behind correlations doesn't claim any of that.
Maybe one of the correlated things causes the other. Maybe they have a shared common cause. Maybe you had a bad data set. You ultimately need to identify some kind of causal mechanism.
Here's a sticky one: Black people in the United Sates are correlated with lower income than Caucasians. Care to guess at where the causality lies there?
BurnedOut_ITGuy · 5 points · Posted at 15:50:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What I'm saying is we can't say "correlation doesn't mean causation" and then toss out every single instance where we have correlation and basically conclude that correlation is meaningless. You see more ice cream trucks in the summer than the winter. Does this mean that ice cream trucks bring warmer weather? Of course not but that doesn't mean you can't ignore correlation altogether because overweight people also have higher rates of heart disease. I see people all the time who use this as an excuse to toss out correlation altogether as meaningless.
AgentElman · 3 points · Posted at 16:20:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You are conflating two similar sounding but different statements.
"Correlation doesn't mean causation" and "correlation means not causation".
The first says that correlation being true does not mean causation is true. It might be true or it might not.
The second says if correlation is true than causation is not true. This is incorrect.
craftygnomes · 2 points · Posted at 15:37:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The word "necessarily" would have made the parent comment accurate.
Correlation does not necessarily equate to causation.
andinuad · 2 points · Posted at 19:38:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In common language perhaps, but in the fields of natural sciences and philosophy it would be unnecessary to put "Necessarily" there because due to the nomenclature, correlation can never equate causation.
craftygnomes · 2 points · Posted at 20:52:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Valid point.
jamesallen74 · 0 points · Posted at 17:44:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Whatever. Everyone knows Nicolas Cage's movie career is the root cause of global warming.
RentalBrain · 0 points · Posted at 18:11:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Show me what you got!
nsweezy · 0 points · Posted at 18:23:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Thank you high school Psychology for explaining this concept to me. 10% club
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 18:28:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Water is lethal because everyone who drank it died.
Tville88 · 0 points · Posted at 18:31:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Crime rates increase as ice cream sales do.
mattyc34 · 0 points · Posted at 18:34:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ice cream consumption goes up at the same time of year that shark attacks go up. Therefore sharks love ice cream filled humans.
For those wondering it's because it is summer
stinkyfastball · 0 points · Posted at 18:56:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Very true, I sometimes use this to quickly win arguments with people when in my own head I'm laughing because what I said actually makes no sense and is easily countered. But it gets the job done since most people can't seem to tell the difference.
samanthailliana · -1 points · Posted at 18:48:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This needs to be higher up.
[deleted] · 8121 points · Posted at 14:01:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[removed]
Kijafa · 2956 points · Posted at 15:23:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
More meetings != More Productivity
Even if the meeting is about increasing productivity.
beepbloopbloop · 1108 points · Posted at 15:34:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
We're going to have a 2 hour productivity meeting every day to increase productivity.
Kijafa · 1207 points · Posted at 15:40:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The beatings will continue until morale improves!
arachnophilia · 451 points · Posted at 15:59:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
the meetings will continue until productivity improves!
YippieKayYayMrFalcon · 292 points · Posted at 16:20:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Meetings
[deleted] · 26 points · Posted at 17:47:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
fireballx777 · 12 points · Posted at 19:07:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'd say meeting time plus ~1 hour, to account for the 20 minute leadup of "Eh, no point starting something now," the 10 minutes that the meeting runs over, and the 30-minute post-meeting time it takes to get back into the flow of actually doing work.
Heavyhiking26 · 8 points · Posted at 18:06:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well damn if I don't need that printed and taped to my office door.
BeardedWax · 1 points · Posted at 19:26:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This has a /r/biomememes kinda vibe, and it's non-explored terroritory. I believe it will profit in medium terms. I'd advise investing in waves as it rises in value and selling as soon as it takes a dive.
TheQueenAthena · 3 points · Posted at 17:47:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Lunch has been canceled today due to lack of hustle.
Thefoundue · 2 points · Posted at 18:50:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Something something jumper cables.
AbeLincolnsFreckles · 1 points · Posted at 18:24:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm pretty sure my high school math teacher had a poster with that phrase.
rob_s_458 · 1 points · Posted at 18:33:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The morale will continue until the beatings improve!
nyr3188 · 1 points · Posted at 18:34:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Did someone say weeaboo?
achemze · 1 points · Posted at 19:27:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I use to call them Meatings. "Oh you mean a meeting with an a?"
QuadFecta_ · 1 points · Posted at 19:38:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Lunch has been cancelled due to lack of hustle!
waste-case-canadian · 1 points · Posted at 19:59:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The meetings will continue until beatings improve!
[deleted] · 21 points · Posted at 17:03:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
beepbloopbloop · 4 points · Posted at 17:04:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I've been poemified by sprog. My reddit career is finally legit.
Stop_Sign · 1 points · Posted at 19:20:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Spoken cause why not
Papervolcano · 2 points · Posted at 16:56:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
....boss?
acadien-driftwood · 2 points · Posted at 17:24:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Then form a committee on committees to discuss why we have so many committees. Yes, this happens; I have seen it in the academic world :-).
pass-the-butter · 1 points · Posted at 19:42:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I've seen this in churches too, committees formed to discuss forming a new committee...
Lesp00n · 2 points · Posted at 18:22:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Reminds me of a situation at work. Three safety managers ago (so like 18 months ago) the safety manager decided we needed these 'accountability boards' to mark where we were in the facility/if we had left the premises for safety purposes, such as to make sure everyone is accounted for during an evacuation.
A few months ago we got an email which proclaimed 'the accountability boards do not, in fact, increase accountability.' Yeah, not only that, but they hurt productivity, because we had people who didn't remember to change their status on the board until they were halfway to the other location and had to turn around an come back to move their peg on the board.
BankshotMcG · 2 points · Posted at 18:52:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In college I was taking 5 classes, going to an internship 2x a week, doing my RA duties (including all the duties they hid from us in the outline of 1 night a week + 1 weekend a month), being a good boyfriend, and zooming through all my midterms. It was tight, but I was on top of it...
...until ResLife pulled all the RAs into two mandatory two-hour sessions on coping with all the demands on us. My schedule got wrecked the night before a midterm by a seminar on how to properly block out a schedule.
zero_iq · 2 points · Posted at 18:58:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
To keep the productivity meetings productive and focused, we should have pre-productivity meeting planning meetings to nail down the agenda. To keep those short, we should schedule additional pre-planning meetings for the pre-productivity meeting planning team. And to avoid wasting the precious time of the pre-productivity meeting pre-planning team, we'll schedule individual tasks at an ahead-of-time preliminary pre-planning meeting scheduling workshop, then collate the individuals' contributions at pre-productivity meeting planning coordination team round-up meetings. To keep everyone on track, we'll assign pre-planning meeting planning managers to individuals, and they can coordinate at weekly pre-planning meeting planning managers' planning meetings, and we'll keep tabs on everyone daily at the morning pre-pre-planning stand-up, with an open-discussion feedback group every Friday afternoon at 16:45 to discuss any improvements to the system.
Tozon · 2 points · Posted at 19:11:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
At my last job a new manager came in and after a restructure morale across the board was pretty low.
To try and silence some of the moaning he decided each morning would have a 30minute team catch up, for 9 people.
4.5hrs per day, 5 days a week.
Taking the lowest team salary at about $30,000, that meant the meetings cost us a minimum of $18,750 a year - realistically a lot higher as there were some good salaries in there.
That could have been used to subsidise the team member we had just lost...
kju · 1 points · Posted at 15:37:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
They would have to work faster after the meetings, it's not magic, they have to make up for the time they spent in the meeting
nubsauce87 · 1 points · Posted at 17:31:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well, I mean, they'll have to work harder to make up for the lost time. So mission accomplished.
sarcastic_commentary · 1 points · Posted at 17:57:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The bureaucracy is expanding, to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy.
pm_me_ur_aspirationz · 1 points · Posted at 18:09:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
We need a pre-meeting meeting to discuss the productivity meetings.
JoshuaGrahamcracker · 1 points · Posted at 20:14:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Michael Scott?
Just_OneReason · 0 points · Posted at 18:29:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My teacher used to take twenty minutes every day of our fifty minute class to lecture us because of how little we accomplished the class before. Every class on a loop she did this. If people tried to work during her lecture, she'd take an extra five minutes to complain about that. Three day projects took two weeks.
Quajek · 0 points · Posted at 18:39:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My old boss used to bring us in for 2 hour meetings to chew us out for not hitting productivity goals, and oh yeah, the goal for today is the same as if we didn't have a meeting. Good luck.
Agent_Dutchess · 0 points · Posted at 18:39:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"Why would a movie increase productivity?"
"... Because people need to work harder to make up the time they missed watching a movie.... "
spencerAF · 0 points · Posted at 18:49:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I was actually going to make a comment about never being able to understand how companies justified taking the 2 hour training and then multiplying it by the number people in the room and then trying to get back those hours.
Now I'm thinking about it again and if in two hours there's information that can save (or sufficiently improve performance to compensate) most people 12 minutes per day, over the course of an 8 hour day, the company gets back this time in two weeks.
I'm not saying I don't still hate meetings and I definitely think that back in my work days there was tons of time wasted with excessively long or uncoordinated meetings. There's was some reddit suggestion recently about trying to justify the opposite side of your argument and in this case I thought it worked pretty well.
Spartan2470 · 11 points · Posted at 17:25:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just an FYI (and because you deserve to know), the account you responded to is almost certainly a karma-farming account. It just copied and pasted part of this person's comment.
There is other evidence too that I've sent to the mods.
If you're not familiar with this type of account (and how they hurt reddit), this page may help to explain.
LucyLilium92 · 2 points · Posted at 20:26:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And to think it still got so many upvotes even though it was OP responding to their own question using a previous top comment last time it was asked.
flat5 · 7 points · Posted at 17:04:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
True. But from the manager's side, here's another perspective:
Just because you got two weeks uninterrupted, wrote a lot of satisfying code, and felt fulfilled and productive, doesn't necessarily mean you actually helped the project get to where it's supposed to be going.
Meetings do have their place, to make sure the "productivity" is real and not imagined.
dwpunch · 2 points · Posted at 19:04:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Another unpopular opinion: most people can't actually be productive continuously for 10 hours a day. Mental breaks to disengage are absolutely necessary. Although meetings can be excessive, it has some benefits:
Making people work in chunks often makes them more efficient rather than giving them long stretches of solo time.
Art_Vandelay_7 · 2 points · Posted at 16:59:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Then how do you suggest we go about synergyzing shit, huh?
deltaexdeltatee · 2 points · Posted at 19:05:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Holy god, this. I had a job once where my department was waaaaay understaffed and we'd periodically fall behind on one or more of our tasks. My manager's solution was to force us to track exactly how much of each thing we'd done and how much we had left to do, put it in a spreadsheet, and email him updated twice daily, plus an in-person meeting after lunch to discuss it.
I started tracking how much productivity we lost each day tracking and talking about productivity, it was roughly an hour per day depending on how long the meeting lasted. Insanely frustrating.
RefinedKnives · 2 points · Posted at 17:54:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Michael Scott would like to disagree.
dubman42 · 1 points · Posted at 16:24:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My favorite meetings are the meetings about the other meetings we need to have.
Spinolio · 1 points · Posted at 16:38:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
With an attitude like that, you will never achieve the Singularity, when every working moment is spent discussing and documenting work, rather than performing it.
nism0o3 · 1 points · Posted at 16:41:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not only the number of useless meetings and meetings to discuss meetings but (for my team anyway) we spend far too much time (often going over our meeting time) discussing the details of hypothetical scenarios. One person in particular will spend 20 minutes talking about how he resolved an issue, going step by step the entire time with useless details. IT DRIVES ME NUTS!
Sedu · 1 points · Posted at 16:48:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Fantastic message! I'm calling an all hands meeting so we can workshop it!
Chappies89 · 1 points · Posted at 17:04:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Amen.
Ishtizzle · 1 points · Posted at 17:10:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
For real. It's not uncommon for me to have 10+ hours of meetings in an 8 hour day because I get double/triple booked. And then I get shit for either being behind on my projects, or having the audacity of asking if I can skip any of the meetings that don't really apply to me, but they want me "in the loop" on.
Also anything I'm "in the loop" on is now my responsibility because I have knowledge of the subject.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:15:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I hate meetings so much. Most of the time they are meaningless and they just interrupt productive work. I think managers and others who schedule a lot of meetings are just bored. I mean we literally have meetings to discuss meetings.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 17:22:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
65% could have been covered by an email?
connectthepositive · 1 points · Posted at 17:17:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There was a good article on something similar in the MIT sloan school journal "The lost art of thinking in a large organisation"
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 17:24:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not so sure how similar. The summary included this gem:
"How did we arrive in a state where managers do not recognize that thinking is part of their job? The answer reflects a relentless focus on execution in many large companies. "
I have never encountered a relentless focus on execution in large companies. Only a focus on meetings...
connectthepositive · 1 points · Posted at 18:25:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, I suppose you are right. I saw the similarity from a tendency in the meetings I attend. There is a tendency for them to be just repeating and reinforcing the execution (and remind people who is in charge), even though we all knew already.
Serdaigle15 · 1 points · Posted at 17:21:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I wish my work understood that. And also more vacation time = more productivity.
Staying at your desk longer = more chances your employees will go on facebook and reddit
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:43:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
At my workplace all meetings take place during lunch. Of course we're also just 11 workers, including the boss. But that means that any and all stuff we need to go through gets done during lunch which means it's more like a discussion at lunch and no wasted work time.
LagOutLoud · 1 points · Posted at 17:56:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"For God so loved the world that he didn't send a committee."
Red-Beard-Man · 1 points · Posted at 17:56:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Everyone will be more productive though! They have to be to make up for the time spent in meetings.
spumpkin914 · 1 points · Posted at 18:20:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And then they will wonder why things aren't getting done....
Jewsafrewski · 1 points · Posted at 18:28:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My art teacher in middle school could not get this through her head. She would spend half of class complaining about us not finishing the assignment (and throw a fit if anyone tried to work on said assignment during her rant) that she had already not given us enough time to complete then complain even more when her 'productivity pep talks' made us take even longer on the assignment.
djscreeling · 1 points · Posted at 18:30:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This guy scrums
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:03:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
ITT: jobs I want to have. All my jobs my work was too constant (and annoying) for many meetings. Thank your blessings you get a stress break/time to bond with your coworkers (which is shown in studies to increase productivity, so believe it or not your manager might actually be smrt).
Mtownsprts · 1 points · Posted at 19:08:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Holy shit tell my boss that
quotemycode · 1 points · Posted at 19:20:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Depends.. If it's a meeting to define the scope of a project it can certainly reduce the amount of work to do.
anachronic · 1 points · Posted at 19:24:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It goes both ways, I think.
Meetings can be a LOT more efficient than giant "reply all" email threads flying around for weeks and getting more and more off topic as people get more and more confused.
Sometimes getting 3-4 people in a room at the same time to discuss what needs to happen, and laying out some dates & milestones is far better than email threads.
SpCommander · 1 points · Posted at 19:34:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Good lord if only I could teach certain people this....
Im_Not_Mr_Fantastic · 1 points · Posted at 19:41:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
For neg_productivity in range(len (meetings):
Powdercum · 1 points · Posted at 19:48:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Meetings to announce thing can be handled with an E-mail. If you have a meeting expect discussions about the subjects.
snoweel · 1 points · Posted at 19:52:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Same thing for reports.
jet_heller · 1 points · Posted at 20:04:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I once heard a great reason for this. Managers do little to no work besides have meetings. This is their life. They incorrectly think this their underlings life as well and thus schedule meetings. When you find the managers that shield you from meetings, those are the ones to keep.
LaGrrrande · 1 points · Posted at 20:15:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My last boss's boss called her into work on her day off for a meeting to tell everyone that they shouldn't be working on their days off because those days are to recharge and recover from working.
qazmoqwerty · 1 points · Posted at 21:48:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Whenever I see "!=" I wonder if the person who wrote it codes or if it's just a general thing that people use.
SXOSXO · 1 points · Posted at 16:13:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
From my experience, it seems like the meetings are just a way for the managers themselves to look busier and therefore validate their salaries.
venuswasaflytrap · 1 points · Posted at 18:03:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Good meetings can absolutely increased productivity.
Signs of a good meeting: Time boxed, well defined agenda, expected artifacts (a document that says people have agreed to X, a plan for how to perform Y, whatever).
And then someone in the meeting has to be disciplined enough to say "We're here to talk about X and X only" and keep everyone focused on creating whatever the artifact is that is needed.
Electrathescientist · 0 points · Posted at 16:19:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
^ This guy codes.
thingpaint · 0 points · Posted at 15:52:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No no no, we need to have meetings to discuss how we can be more productive, that will meta increase productivity
Zenith2017 · 0 points · Posted at 17:40:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
spotted the developer
lemon_tea · 0 points · Posted at 17:46:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Did you miss the meeting about why productivity is down? Don't worry, you can make the next one.
BiomedBrainiac · 0 points · Posted at 17:47:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I swear, 50% of management at my current company is getting paid to meet with other management and report to senior management. I'm just a part-time peon, but my boss' boss' boss just eliminated the middle boss about five months ago, along with the rest of an entire level of middle management, because they literally did nothing.
It's a catering company; each division has a manager, one manager for every three to four division managers, and a contract head to manage the senior managers. The senior managers got eliminated, since they essentially did nothing besides ordering for the divisions under their supervision, but they had to be alerted to supply shortages by the division managers, who usually ended up putting in the orders themselves instead of waiting for the senior managers' approval. The rest of the time was spent running around to different events, supervising the division managers and signing paperwork.
I believe the idea was to keep division managers accountable with more direct supervision, but the cost to have a whole other level of management drastically outweighed any benefit they might bring, so they were laid off at the end of the busy season last year.
JesterXL7 · 0 points · Posted at 18:00:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Seriously, meetings should be to gather relevant people, present facts, ask outstanding questions about stated facts, and ultimately make decisions. All meetings should have a clear agenda so that all parties show prepared with the required information to facilitate the decision making and decision makers need to be decisive so the meeting doesn't ultimately become a waste due to no decisions actually being made. Task assignment should also be a direct output of the decisions made. If meetings don't meet this criteria then they are worthless and waste everyone's time.
jseego · 0 points · Posted at 18:08:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I have a relative who is a change management consultant, and he strongly recommends that companies adopt a policy that all meetings be voluntary.
If you plan a meeting and no one thinks it's worthwhile to their job function to show up, guess how important your meeting really was?
He has implemented this with success at some pretty big and complex companies.
TomSwirly · 0 points · Posted at 18:13:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I was once in a meeting where four managers were - really politely, they were nice guys - urging me to get work done faster, even though we all knew I was putting in insane hours on a wildly unrealistic deadline.
I was unfireable and we all knew that too - I try to be really polite in meetings so it went pretty cordially but at one moment I couldn't restrain myself and said, "You know, if there were one more of me and one less of you..."
drdeadringer · 0 points · Posted at 18:15:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"The meetings shall continue until productivity improves."
ToTacoOrNotToTaco · 0 points · Posted at 18:24:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I wish we had more meetings. We meet once a week and by the time the next meeting rolls around I find that no one else has spoken to each other since the previous meeting. We sync notes once a week and wonder why shit doesn't get done.
Derpy_Guardian · 0 points · Posted at 18:30:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Found the programmer.
And yes, it's true. I experienced this personally.
bigfruitbasket · 0 points · Posted at 18:49:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I once went to a meeting where we decided not to decide on a matter. Took 10 minutes, but I'll never get that 10 minutes of my life back.
devraj7 · 0 points · Posted at 18:49:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
However, fewer meetings doesn't necessarily mean increased productivity.
AMarriedSpartan · 0 points · Posted at 18:57:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This. Oh my gosh.
ShadowOvertaker · 0 points · Posted at 18:59:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I feel like there's a relevant xkcd for this, just not sure which one it is.
VARice22 · 0 points · Posted at 19:02:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oh, bob. Remember to attend the planing to plan meeting after 'Is It Good for the Company'.
Flacvest · -1 points · Posted at 17:29:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm the only grad student in my lab so my boss and I only have one on one meetings not entire lab meetings like other labs.
I quickly realized how unproductive meetings often are.
netfiend · -1 points · Posted at 17:46:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I feel like an excess of meetings could be caused by the organizer wanting to make themselves look good.
Hypothetical near FUUUTURE: "See?! See? The issue is not my fault. I scheduled meetings in order to improve the team's work. That's on them. Don't let me go. sobs"
[deleted] · -1 points · Posted at 18:02:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Meetings are generally for the people who don't actually do much work but like to be seen as if they are i.e. managers
TJaySteno · -1 points · Posted at 18:11:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
From the programmer
DeadeyeDuncan · -1 points · Posted at 18:13:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Its funny though. Americans love meetings, but their productivity is pretty damn high, so maybe their is something in it.
zirtbow · 358 points · Posted at 15:06:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Are you sure? Sounds like we should have a meeting to review how well your progress is going. It's okay just stay at your desk and I'll call you. Block out an hour this afternoon and an hour before that so we can discuss some information I'll need about the meeting prior to the meeting.
arachnophilia · 310 points · Posted at 16:02:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
one time i had a meeting about why i told one of my bosses that we have too many meetings.
Sierra_Oscar_Lima · 125 points · Posted at 16:55:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Did you bother to point out the irony?
Snack_Boy · 111 points · Posted at 17:18:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes and they gave him a generous 2 hour severance
feralgoldfish · 1 points · Posted at 17:12:45 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
That was for the next meeting.
Mr-Messy · 15 points · Posted at 18:02:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I was in a meeting once and an issue was raised that needed to be sorted ASAP. They higher ups on the call said, we will have a call at 10 to discuss your progress. It was 9:30, and that call finished at 10.
[deleted] · 9 points · Posted at 17:34:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Your username is extremely disturbing.
arachnophilia · 7 points · Posted at 17:38:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
so i've been told.
tablesix · 7 points · Posted at 17:56:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you haven't been there yet, you might like r/spiderbro
markercore · 3 points · Posted at 17:47:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"So it seems you think we have too many meetings. Why don't you tell us about that?"
Northwindlowlander · 2 points · Posted at 18:44:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's the sort of shit that gets you into working groups
MrKrazybones · 21 points · Posted at 15:27:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Also two of my bosses are going to have a 1 on 1 with you to try to get you to explain the whole situation and then they will give you advice that doesn't help you whatsoever
Dfiggsmeister · 4 points · Posted at 17:41:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'll also give you a series of analogies to describe the process that I'd like you to use. Sort of like when you were kid and you tried to get a square peg in to a circle hole, but it didn't fit. So you went into your garage, grabbed your dad's hammer and proceeded to hammer the shit out of the square peg until it fit.
philsown · 3 points · Posted at 16:56:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I worked for this exact company
bool_idiot_is_true · 44 points · Posted at 15:26:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Very agile.
[deleted] · 4 points · Posted at 18:10:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think half of my calendar is daily / weekly standups / rundowns / task creation / etc meetings, and the other half is the business analyst asking if he can call me for a minute so I can do his job for him.
ze_ex_21 · 2 points · Posted at 18:09:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
MEETINGS
Much work remains to be done before we can announce our total failure to make any progress
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:30:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Man. I know it's not quite the same, but all the fucking idiots who leave a voicemail requesting i call them back so they can give me the answer /info i need when it's a simple as fuck thing. JUST SAY IT ON THE VOICEMAIL. So so so many people who demand unnecessary attention when they could just GIVE the info instead of emailing/calling /sending fucking notes demanding i call them back
LawnShipper · 208 points · Posted at 14:27:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Corollary: If you haven't gotten a read receipt yet, IMing me for an update is going to prove fruitless.
geek66 · 186 points · Posted at 15:06:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I never allow the read receipt to be sent.
Falls into two categories - Coworkers / Colleagues and People that use Read Receipt
Chaotic-Catastrophe · 160 points · Posted at 16:00:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Never ever ever. It feels so heavy-handed to even include one. You don't get to silently judge how I use my time. Just because I read your email doesn't mean I don't have something more important in line before you.
CallOfCorgithulhu · 39 points · Posted at 17:22:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Fuck that. I immediately mentally note everyone who tags their email with a read receipt that they don't trust me.
grandpappy_du-plenty · 10 points · Posted at 18:07:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oh yeah. Tagged emails immediately send the person to the bottom of the pile.
You know they're going to be the kind of person who follows up, every day, with:
"Hey, u/grandpappy_du-plenty, just checking on the status of that order again, even though you've said you'll call me when it gets here the last 4 times. Can you try and rush it? Call me right away."
(Doesn't answer their phone)
bonertopia · 2 points · Posted at 20:35:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I just popped a blood vessel in my eye
CallOfCorgithulhu · 2 points · Posted at 20:59:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You must work inside sales, too. You described so many of my customers.
"Please process this PO asap, even though my price is seven years old, and there is no contact email on the PO.
-sent from an unmonitored email, do not reply to this address"
Elaborate_vm_hoax · 4 points · Posted at 18:50:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The only people I send read receipts to are people who have tried to throw me under the bus on something they didn't get done themselves before. So yeah... I don't trust them.
I_creampied_Jesus · 7 points · Posted at 19:05:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I refuse to confirm I have in fact read their email. Now if there was a 'opened it, rolled my eyes at the first sentence and then closed it' button I'd be clicking the shit out of it.
noydbshield · 11 points · Posted at 17:46:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
All the people I've ever known that used them vastly over estimated their own importance.
SweetRaus · 3 points · Posted at 19:00:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I use a Chrome extension that sends me a read receipt without informing the reader. I do this because I work in sales and I need to know if my emails are being read - if I send you an email two days in a row and you don't read either of them, you won't read a third, and I should call you to see what's up.
noydbshield · 5 points · Posted at 19:15:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm guessing that works by linking a resource in the email (like an image that's just a single pixel or something) from a certain URL and then notifying you when it's downloaded. Outlook at least will block this behavior by default. Some other mail clients (including web based ones) may as well.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 19:40:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
noydbshield · 3 points · Posted at 20:08:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sounds like something that would be available in Outlook. I couldn't say for certain. The not downloading without permission on each email works well for me, so that's what I do. Never messed with it.
KakariBlue · 1 points · Posted at 01:58:52 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Gmail used to default to 'Ask before showing images' but you can also set it to 'Always show'.
sunburnedaz · 3 points · Posted at 18:13:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I disabled that function in outlook.
kevinroseblowsgoats · 5 points · Posted at 18:24:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Although (at least for internal email), there are Exchange configurations to ignore the client setting and send a read receipt anyway
Source: Had an awful boss and found this out
deltaexdeltatee · 2 points · Posted at 19:08:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Seriously. It's extremely rare for me to do a task the instant it comes to my desk - I rate everything on importance and do the more time-sensitive stuff first.
If it's truly urgent, call me. I'll get it done pronto if it's really the most important thing in my docket, but otherwise it's going in the queue and I'll get to it as soon as it's practical.
nihilisticpunchline · 3 points · Posted at 18:23:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The only person in our entire company that uses them is our information security officer. The only emails she ever sends are reminders to not to open suspicious attachments/report suspicious emails and senders or to schedule our yearly departmental information security training and procedural reviews. Her job exists so our CIO had someone to throw menial tasks to that he didn't want to do himself (write policies, meet with examiners once per year, go to semi-annual board meetings, etc). She isn't important enough for read receipts. She also sends follow-up emails the next day (with read receipts) if you don't respond right away. I'm not a big fan of her.
KakariBlue · 1 points · Posted at 01:56:59 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
That has a purpose though, the read receipt let's an audit show that everyone was trained/notified on whatever the email was about and saves her from going through a bunch of 'yeah, I got it' emails instead. It's a bad option, but quite a bit better than most alternatives.
nihilisticpunchline · 2 points · Posted at 02:05:08 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
But of all of the important trainings/meetings that need to be scheduled or emails full of information that need to be sent, hers are the least important. I'm not just being an asshole about this (I mean, I am an asshole and I'm okay admitting it but this really isn't one of the cases that I'm just being an ass). She really doesn't have that important of a function at our company but she thinks she does. If we don't send read receipts about scheduling training for changes in regulatory compliance, she doesn't get to send them for coming over to our building to talk to us about making sure we password protect documents.
OnTheEveOfWar · 1 points · Posted at 19:18:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There's programs out there they automatically track when emails are opened without the recepient even knowing. I use one at work and it's great.
KakariBlue · 1 points · Posted at 01:55:00 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
You probably send HTML email with little icons for desk, email, and mobile contact information.
ks4e · 1 points · Posted at 19:32:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The only time I ever send read receipts is when I am not going to start the task soon and am feeling extra passive aggressive.
Asteresck · 1 points · Posted at 20:06:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You could always just say "Yeah I'm a little busy, I'll get to it later."
TedTheViking · 79 points · Posted at 16:20:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just send it like three months after the fact, long after the issue has been resolved.
Spartan2470 · 7 points · Posted at 18:19:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just an FYI (and because you deserve to know), the account you responded to is almost certainly a karma-farming account. It just copied and pasted part of this person's comment.
There is other evidence too that I've sent to the mods.
If you're not familiar with this type of account (and how they hurt reddit), this page may help to explain.
LawnShipper · 5 points · Posted at 18:20:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Longtime subscriber of /r/shills. You're doing God's work, son/daughter.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 18:37:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
rabidassbaboon · 3 points · Posted at 19:10:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is a move that should only be reserved for when someone is being unresponsive and/or a jackass. Any other time, you just look like a dick.
xtinalala · 1 points · Posted at 19:44:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Agree with you there. I have an entire dept who copy their boss on all correspondence to me. Gets the work placed on the bottom of the pile.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:00:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
LawnShipper · 4 points · Posted at 18:05:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sure, there's a time and place, but I've seen far too many PM's with receipts enabled on every message.
Kalinka1 · 1 points · Posted at 19:06:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Definitely. If I'm sending an important proposal that's the summation of weeks of work by email, yes I'm probably using a read receipt along with a follow up email. And if you haven't responded to 2-3 requests for info and it's been 3+ days, I'll probably add a read receipt. It's a good way to add a little pressure and voice my displeasure with being ignored.
And CC'ing the boss is a great way to light a fire under someone's butt when they're ignoring an actual issue. Of course for day-to-day tasks I never use read receipts or unnecessary CCs. That's childish.
KakariBlue · 0 points · Posted at 02:01:09 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Always Cc your own boss first, and escalate to theirs and yours if necessary.
illuxion · 2 points · Posted at 19:34:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
and if you come to my office to check to see if I've read it yet, there is a great chance I will 'accidentally' forget to do whatever you IM'd me about.
MrCrash · 1 points · Posted at 18:42:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
this. Not even about read-receipt, but I get so many IMs where all they have to say to me is "I sent you an email..."
so your urgent message to me that's interrupting my work is "Check your email"?
Yes. I'm at work. I am definitely looking at my mailbox. Stopping me from working to tell me to check my mail is not going to get me to your mail any faster.
LAGreggM · -8 points · Posted at 16:21:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Co-workers used to call me on the phone to ask whether I've read the email they sent. I asked them how often they checked their physical mail boxes at home.
dubman42 · 15 points · Posted at 16:25:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
huh? The two are in no way equivalent.
LAGreggM · -7 points · Posted at 16:33:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ok, go back to sleep.
dubman42 · 9 points · Posted at 16:59:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It still won't be equivalent.
You're not wrong that someone asking if you've read their email is annoying, but responding with something non-nonsensical like asking them how often they check their physical mailbox just makes you a douche.
LAGreggM · -8 points · Posted at 17:02:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
sometimes it's just fun to be a prick.
LawnShipper · 5 points · Posted at 16:29:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I even turned off the screen pop for emails. When I'm working on something, I'm working on something. Emails will be addressed in the order they are received and sorted by my prioritization standards.
mactroneng · 1 points · Posted at 18:31:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Same. The phone is there still for something needs an immediate response.
LawnShipper · 1 points · Posted at 18:34:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oh hell no. If I get the email/IM/phone call combo, I know there's an escalation procedure you're meant to follow so go on ahead and follow it.
7thgradet3acher · -9 points · Posted at 17:13:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's not fruitless. It is a hint to read your fucking email.
LawnShipper · 8 points · Posted at 17:14:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Fuck you, I'm not dropping everything I'm doing to look at your fucking email. Lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on mine. Take your PMP and shove it.
7thgradet3acher · -6 points · Posted at 17:43:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I love how people make excuses for their laziness.
Stop dicking around on Reddit and get to work.
LawnShipper · 4 points · Posted at 17:47:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Alright, you come install the software on the server then, though I'm not entirely confident you can even spell SSH to initiate a session, so, this ought to be fun.
Sydin · 4 points · Posted at 17:53:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Dude, you just gave away the answer.
LawnShipper · 1 points · Posted at 17:54:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Don't worry, it'll take at least a half a dozen conference calls for the PM to figure out that it's an acronym, not something they should be trying to pronounce.
yob-tvoyu-mat · 10 points · Posted at 17:29:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
https://www.reddit.com/r/TheseFuckingAccounts/comments/6tnwtq/ulutuputulu_currently_1_on_askreddit_and_8_on_the/
Asteresck · 3 points · Posted at 20:10:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't understand why people do the whole reposting-a-top-post thing. Is there some reward for having a shitton of karma?
No?
Then why the fuck do I care? Why the fuck do you care? Why are you doing this?
yob-tvoyu-mat · 2 points · Posted at 20:11:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Google "buy reddit accounts" the more karma the more they can sell them for. That's why.
yob-tvoyu-mat · 2 points · Posted at 20:15:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Also this;https://www.reddit.com/r/quityourbullshit/comments/3jss04/meta_spammers_how_they_work_and_how_to_spot_them/
AgentElman · 11 points · Posted at 15:49:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The time it takes you to complete my task is determined by the deadline I give you. Having you start later or increasing scope doesn't change the time it takes you. It says so on my schedule.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 17:26:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sure it changes the time it takes you. We spent so much time fucking with the scope, that you're now going to get twice as much done in half the time. Says so right here.
AgentElman · 1 points · Posted at 17:43:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My schedule has been baselined. That means it is accurate.
ImOnlyHereToKillTime · 3 points · Posted at 16:35:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is like my girlfriend's job. Her client is basically making them do extra things and jump through hoops for them and their product that are unnecessary, and at the end of the week they complain that not enough is getting done fast enough.
Asteresck · 1 points · Posted at 20:10:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Refer to the above thread about standing up for yourself. I think that could help her.
ImOnlyHereToKillTime · 1 points · Posted at 21:08:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I mean she doesn't have an issue with that. You don't exactly have the luxury standing up for yourself all the time in the business world.
Blueshark25 · 3 points · Posted at 16:46:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My god, at my pharmacy drive thru there is a ton of stuff I have to do on the computer to ring up prescriptions. I will gladly answer questions, but please don't go on about random stuff because I can't hold onto the phone and do everything else at once. Also I can only hear them when the phone is up to my ear and most people will start talking before I've picked it up.
pass-the-butter · 3 points · Posted at 19:51:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
People don't wait for you to say "Thank you for calling XYZ Pharmacy, how can I help you?" before they start talking? That's just a complete lack of social awareness...
Megmca · 3 points · Posted at 17:40:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Seriously. I can't call your insurance for an override until you stop asking me when I'm going to call your insurance.
I wish we had a phone AI that people could talk to about how confusing their medication is. I'd get so much more work done.
brainiac3397 · 2 points · Posted at 20:41:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I like the "I need this done as soon as possible. It's urgent. It's really important that you finish this. You understand how important it is for you to finish this in time right? We're making these changes and they'll have problems if you don't finish in time blah blah" calls.
They spend like 10 minutes telling you why they need it done immediately, yet don't seem to realize they've just wasted 10 minutes you could've spent doing the job to tell you to do the job.
cromulent_pseudonym · 2 points · Posted at 17:32:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Similarly, if you'd like help via e-mail, you should probably explain the actual problem you're having. Not just state that you have a problem.
kaett · 2 points · Posted at 17:50:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
better yet... i can't fix the thing you're screaming at me to fix because it requires me to call other people and you calling me every 3 fucking minutes for an update means i can't talk to the people you're screaming at me to talk to. and yelling at me for not answering my phone is not going to help matters either.
el_monstruo · 2 points · Posted at 18:05:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You know what I also hate? When people send you an email with something that needs to be done, call you right after it is sent to see if you received it, then talk on the phone about the issue that was just sent to you in an email.
phatboy5289 · 2 points · Posted at 18:35:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Why are you reposting word for word the same AskReddit question from two months ago and one of the top comments: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/6ehsw7/what_is_something_that_90_of_people_dont_seem_to/diasui9/
simplerthings · 2 points · Posted at 15:54:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My mom would call me when I was late to tell me I was late. I'm like, "You are making me later because I have to stop what I'm doing, answer my phone, and for the most part stand still while I'm talking to you because I suck at multi-tasking."
BrickGun · 1 points · Posted at 16:07:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And the corollary: It will take me an hour to do it... two hours if you help.
BlindTarantula · 1 points · Posted at 17:13:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I recently had an hour long application I filled out over the phone and explained damn near everything in detail (person was a little slow) and still complained about how it took so long he had to pee in the middle of the application.
If you just shut up instead of giving me your life story I can get the info in faster.
_TheKingJulian_ · 1 points · Posted at 17:15:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My dad does this when he needs a favor. He turns 30 second instructions into a half hour conversation.
CristabelYYC · 1 points · Posted at 17:36:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm a nurse. Your stupid questions are keeping me away from actually caring for your relative's needs. Buddy has a cell phone. Call him yourself.
jamesallen74 · 1 points · Posted at 17:37:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But but but I neeeeeed to tell you why I want you to do this over and over and over and over again. How else will you know. Lol /s
Handle_Fishsticks · 1 points · Posted at 17:41:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Fuck yes. I have customers constantly asking me to do stuff and want an email while I'm on the phone with them. It's like dude hang up and I'll send it. Like I'm just going to disregard what you asked me to do.
I_Am_Karma · 1 points · Posted at 17:59:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The same is about status calls. Having one call per day to ask about the status on work in understood, but having those calls 2/3 times a day, for a team of 6 people, which easily takes up 30 - 45 mins per call, is just bullshit! And then they complain that we are not productive enough, and we don't manage our time!!
cjldude22 · 1 points · Posted at 17:59:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
God I wish my boss understood this
DenieD83 · 1 points · Posted at 18:02:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I just changed job, went from a company where my calendar was choccabloc with nothing but voice calls and I got next to nothing done. Started new place and people let you get on with shit... done more in 2 weeks than 6 months at the old job and I'm still learning the ropes here...
ibpants · 1 points · Posted at 18:07:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Reminds me of CDT in school (short for Craft, Design, & Technology - basically woodwork). We'd have a two hour lesson every Monday, the first hour of which was always spent listening to the teacher complaining about how little work we got done the previous week.
contemplating_guy · 1 points · Posted at 18:10:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This. Experiencing it first hand everyday in current assignment. No agenda to the meeting, no time keeping, letting the status meeting run for more than 2 hours every single day. Sheer loss of 10+ person hours of productivity each day. The person conducting it supposedly has a certification in project management. BS.
ottersstolemymom · 1 points · Posted at 18:13:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you keep calling back to see if it's done, it's gonna take twice as long!
NotThatEasily · 1 points · Posted at 18:20:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I used to tell my boss "I can either fix it, or I can tell you how I'm going to fix it, but I can't do both at the same time."
Oh, right. Call me when you're done.
ZannX · 1 points · Posted at 18:25:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The more touchbases there are on my calendar, the less time I have to complete that thing we're touching base on...
Also, I explained to a co-worker that a meeting with 20 people in it for 1 hour is worth 20 man hours... and I always question whether or not we got literally half a work week's worth of productivity from that meeting. Blew his mind...
j_from_cali · 1 points · Posted at 18:35:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"Time Management Tip #1": image of a phone being shot with a handgun.
Had an editorial cartoon with this image/caption posted on my wall at work for a long time.
jimibulgin · 1 points · Posted at 18:35:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
whenever I call Comcast, I get their name and ID number and then intentionally keep them on the phone for as long as I possibly can. Then I ask for their supervisor and do the same. If possible, I get their supervisor and do the same.
Am I being a dick? Probably, but fuck Comcast. (AT&T too, for that matter....)
SunfireCobra · 1 points · Posted at 18:42:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Then I'll forget what you told me to do in the first place
Gr8NonSequitur · 1 points · Posted at 18:45:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yup, I literally told a client account rep who scheduled a call with the client (non-technical people) to discuss the issues we were having "Would you rather I sit on the phone for an hour to tell them we're investigating the issue, or would you rather I investigate the issue and try to fix it, because I can't do both at the same time. Your call just guarantees another hour of down time...."
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:48:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I wish my customers understood this.
Yes, let's complain about wait times and busy phone lines when you're one of the people trying to tell me their life fucking story and causing the backup in the first place.
Vandorbelt · 1 points · Posted at 18:54:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Hooooly shit. Seriously, I don't know if it's something in the water, but anytime someone at work needs me to do something, they feel the need to go on a ten-minute monologue about what they need done, how it should be done, and why it needs to get done. Meanwhile I'm scrambling just to get finished with my work so I can leave on schedule and they somehow feel like I'm not listening because I haven't stopped what I'm doing to sit in rapt attention while they give me their speil.
For God's sake, just tell me what needs to get done and I'll do it. No, I'm not going to enjoy the fact that you're giving me more work, and no, I'm not going to delay myself by 10 minutes while I listen to you, but if you tell me to do something I will get it done.
Hayley9000 · 1 points · Posted at 19:00:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I am the only person in this department at 3am. If I put you on hold it's because I am fixing your problem or finding the answer to your question. If you hang up and call back because you think you've been holding too long, you will have to wait longer.
pethatcat · 1 points · Posted at 19:01:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The story of my workday.
hewasbornwavision · 1 points · Posted at 19:01:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Damn I'm gunna take this one home
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:07:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
MOM
bagels_for_everyone · 1 points · Posted at 19:17:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The most annoying thing ever!!!!!! It's usually something they fucked up and need you to fix and can't stop thanking you for helping.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:30:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You must work in IT.
MyHorseIsAmazinger · 1 points · Posted at 19:30:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
As an inbound call rep. God yes. Just shut up, I knew what we needed to do to fix your fuck up 5 words into your explanation.
scw55 · 1 points · Posted at 19:39:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Teacher yelled at us for 40 minutes about us wasting time misbehaving.
Horkshir · 1 points · Posted at 19:41:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I work for a major pizza chain in a small town. Because we don't get much business we only have three people working at any night and usually only one person during the day. Nothing infuriates me more than someone calling and not knowing what they want, even worse when they have to walk around the house asking everyone what they want. Yea sure it's easy to run it solo during the day, until you spend 30 minutes on the phone with some mouth breather and you got 5 internet orders to in that time.
APackOfMongi · 1 points · Posted at 19:50:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah mom!
Se7enLC · 1 points · Posted at 19:55:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And if you're deciding between calling and emailing, calling will get you an immediate response. Emailing will get you a well-thought-out response. Unless the person is going to know the answer off the top of their head, let them take some time to do a little research and get back to you.
Electroverted · 1 points · Posted at 19:55:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Similar, if you ask me to do something while we're on the phone, stop talking while I'm doing it, or it will take longer.
Julian2000nl · 1 points · Posted at 18:34:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Reminds me of the commercial fucks at my workplace. "Hi I would like to call in sick, I've became very sick overnight and would like to rest" "Oh so you can't make it?" "No I'm so sorry" "Yeaah because I have stuff to do and now I have to find someone to do your work" "I know, and I would come if I could" "Well you don't really sound all that sick, are you sure you can't come?" "No" (silent break) "Yeaahh okay" "I'll try to get back soon" "Yeaah can you be back tomorrow?" "I don't know" "Yeah you sound like you're not all that sick I'm sure you can" "Okay sure I'll see"
pass-the-butter · 2 points · Posted at 19:54:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ugh, I remember having to make my voice sound low and sickly when calling in sick. Sorry that my severe migraines don't make me sound sick!
sideclass · 2980 points · Posted at 14:47:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Safety assessment.
90% of people spend considerable amounts of money on things that will only marginally improve their safety (eg. fancy child safety seats), while failing to spend small amounts of money on things that will dramatically improve their safety (eg. fire extinguishers).
SCPendolino · 1069 points · Posted at 15:37:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
They also forget that safety equipment can't make up for stupidity. Buying a Volvo and then proceeding to drive like a stampeding herd of hippos at 100mph on the highway is not safe. Despite the zillion airbags.
DondeT · 602 points · Posted at 16:28:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Even a single hippo is quite dangerous. The idea of a herd of them in angry volvos is terrifying...
SensibleMadness · 25 points · Posted at 17:55:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Don't worry, they're very safe cars. The hippos are likely to be just fine in the event of a crash.
fyrefocks · 8 points · Posted at 19:58:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But when the dust settles, you still have to deal with an angry hippo, and he's no longer inside his Swedish automobile.
[deleted] · 21 points · Posted at 18:47:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"What's wrong with your volvo?"
"It's angry about something, idk."
BeanCountess · 10 points · Posted at 18:32:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Loving the thought of Volvos that are angrily driving around hippos...
fyrefocks · 4 points · Posted at 19:57:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In this scenario are the volvos actually driving the hippos, as in volvo on top of hippo? Or are the volvos angry chauffeurs and the hippos just along for the ride?
BeanCountess · 2 points · Posted at 02:27:27 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
The second option was what I was picturing but I'm really liking the first now...
otis_the_drunk · 3 points · Posted at 19:13:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Where is u/shittywatercolor when we need him?
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:21:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's made my day, thank you
cpMetis · 1 points · Posted at 19:48:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's ONE way to up-stage those hamster ads.
__crackers__ · 14 points · Posted at 17:30:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's worse than that. There's a fair bit of evidence that increasing safety leads people to take more risks.
ApocalypsePlays · 6 points · Posted at 17:47:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It creates the illusion that they don't need to pay as much attention or be as careful.
browndirtydirt · 5 points · Posted at 17:53:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is why I avoid driving near Volvos when I can. "I have a safe car, so I can drive like I can't possibly cause an accident!"
giver_of_the_snark · 2 points · Posted at 18:08:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think this happens with SUV drivers
alwayssunnyinjoisey · 2 points · Posted at 18:58:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My dad's always driven a small car and says he drives better because he knows there's a huge risk if he gets into an accident. Interesting to learn there are studies on that sort of thing
BrandSluts · 4 points · Posted at 17:32:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Soccer moms driving SUVs and speeding and tailgating like crazy
like_ay_in_okay · 5 points · Posted at 17:52:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
speed doesn't kill. It's the sudden loss.
CanuckSalaryman · 4 points · Posted at 17:41:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You just described my buddy.
Bought himself a Volvo and raved about how safe it was.
Drove over the speed limit constantly until he almost lost his license from the number of tickets he got.
HugoTRB · 3 points · Posted at 18:02:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That actually happens many times in Sweden if you replace the hippo with a 700 kg moose. They totals many cars here. You should be really carful if you are driving a small car through a forest here. It may step out a moose on the road.
TydeQuake · 2 points · Posted at 19:36:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Which explains Volvo's large number of airbags and very good brakes. They're made for moose.
tripog · 3 points · Posted at 18:44:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Problem is in addition to Volvos being safe they're actually pretty quick/powerful cars. I didn't buy a Volvo for safety I just couldn't drive my Trans Am in the winter, so I searched powerful awd car and the s60 has 300+ hp and torque.
Angdrambor · 2 points · Posted at 18:53:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah but driving like a herd of hippos in a volvo is safer than driving like a herd of hippos in a smartcar.
cat_of_danzig · 2 points · Posted at 18:55:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Funny- Volvo has eliminated some if their airbags - the side rear curtains I believe- because the vehicle body has been engineered to be safer.
Korhaka · 1 points · Posted at 18:44:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But, it is safer than doing that without the airbags.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:46:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
PookiSpooks · 1 points · Posted at 20:40:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The main differences being better drivers and the roads are better. I'd love if America could get something similar, but it would require much better driver's ed
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:52:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The human brain is the greatest safety device in existence. It just ins't always put to use.
HenrysOffLine · 1 points · Posted at 18:54:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
SUV drivers in the snow will fall into this category. Yes, you can get going faster, but that does not mean you can stop any quicker.
wahh · 1 points · Posted at 19:19:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is why I vehemently disagree with all of the back-up camera, front-end collision detection, blind spot detection, and lane swerving detection stuff they are starting to put in cars now. It will make people extremely complacent about driving properly because they depend on the car to do all of that crap for them instead of paying attention to the road.
skankhunt42096 · 1 points · Posted at 19:27:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
i have a tesla, im gonna go 120mph. bitch.
RotorHead13b · 1 points · Posted at 19:35:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well it is in a volvo
Poor hippos...
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:37:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When I was a delivery driver in the late 80s/early 90s it seemed like half the aggressive tailgaters were Volvos. As much as people hate on BMWs, at least they aggressively maneuver around you so you don't have to think about them for very long.
BrodieforPresident · 1 points · Posted at 19:42:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
On the same note. An airbag will not prevent 100% of injuries and no it is not the manufacturer's fault if you get hurt even when an airbag is deployed.
Some people seem to think an airbag is a fluffy pillow that protects you from all harm. An airbag is going to hurt if deployed. Your seat belt is going to hurt in an accident. Your vehicle's safety features are there to prevent deadly injuries not defy physics.
SCPendolino · 1 points · Posted at 20:54:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Getting smacked by an airbag is one of the most unpleasant experiences ever.
Source: Own an Alfa Romeo, got smacked by a faulty airbag in the face.
Acupriest · 1 points · Posted at 19:45:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
sigh
It's a Swedish car. You're far more likely to have a stampeding herd of moose driving angry Volvos than hippos, regardless of whether they're driving 100 mph or 161 kph.
Nukeashfield · 1 points · Posted at 20:06:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Or how seat belts are often treated like invulnerability belts.
TheCastro · 1 points · Posted at 18:07:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
For other people, the guy in the volvo will be fine.
nkdeck07 · 981 points · Posted at 15:28:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I am pretty sure a child's car seat is one of the biggest "bang for your buck" safety concerns. Though I do agree with the general sentiment
thingpaint · 404 points · Posted at 15:54:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think it's cheap child seat vs. expensive child seat.
prim3y · 11 points · Posted at 18:05:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A study was just released that it's using the incorrect seats e.g. Booster vs car seat.
simcowking · 5 points · Posted at 21:01:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What was the result?
prim3y · 3 points · Posted at 21:40:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'd have to dig around to find it again, but in summation people use the seats correctly, but are using the wrong seat. They think it has to do with age or weight of the child, but it's only height that determines which seat a child should be using. (If I remember correctly)
simcowking · 3 points · Posted at 22:00:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Hmm. My sister has a baby about six months that has a weight thing for adjusting the backwards facing angle. Is this something that would fall under comfort or safety for the kid then? Assuming height is correct. It's still backwards facing infant age. I'm not a parent :-)
YeastSlayer · 2 points · Posted at 01:53:30 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Do you know what the brand of the car seat is? Almost all infant seats will have a level on the base so you can adjust the angle to accommodate for the angle of the seat of the car.
prim3y · 1 points · Posted at 22:44:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I too am not parent. As far as I know it's only dependent on the height of the child, but obviously, if the kid hasn't developed the strength to hold it's noggin up yet it's not ready for a booster.
ISHLDPROBABLYBWRKING · 29 points · Posted at 16:06:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I mean it's only your child life we're being cheap with
thingpaint · 116 points · Posted at 16:40:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Except every car seat has to pass the exact same safety tests. You can't just sell a car seat, the cheapest one at walmart passes the same tests as the most expensive one on the market.
[deleted] · 63 points · Posted at 16:45:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
[deleted] · 35 points · Posted at 17:24:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
gaqua · 57 points · Posted at 17:53:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The most common failure of a car seat for children is because it was incorrectly installed. You can address this by choosing seats that are easy to install and have basic instructions.
Here is a guide: https://one.nhtsa.gov/nhtsa_eou/info.jsp?type=all
redwall_hp · 26 points · Posted at 17:52:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
By doing research and reading reports from third party testing organisations like Consumer Reports?
By paying attention to the actual score values and requiring they be published? Energy Star ratings, for example, are very clearly communicated.
Dfiggsmeister · 5 points · Posted at 17:52:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's why companies like consumer reports can help with that as well as amazon reviews. Just general research.
SciencyNerdGirl · 11 points · Posted at 18:28:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I doubt that's directly correlated with expense. Most of your money is paying for fluffy plushness and cup holders and other cool features (compatibility with strollers or conversion as the kid grows or ease of install, etc) not safety.
phlegminist · 0 points · Posted at 19:00:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No one has argued that there is a direct correlation. The argument is that you shouldn't just buy the cheapest one thinking it's as good as all the others. What you should do is research and find out which ones are the safest, and buy based on that research and not price. You probably won't end up buying the most expensive seat, but I guarantee you will not end up buying the cheapest seat either.
pspahn · 11 points · Posted at 17:11:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, but will the cheap ones have expiration dates that are sooner? (If you didn't know, child seats have expiration dates)
Respect_The_Mouse · 8 points · Posted at 17:18:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What components are in child seats that cause the need for an expiration date? I wasn't aware
wickedbiskit · 19 points · Posted at 17:20:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Most have a 6-year expiration date starting from the date of manufacture. Also, you aren't just buying safety. Those fucking things suck to take out and put back in a car. I will pay a little extra for safety and convenience.
nkdeck07 · 16 points · Posted at 17:21:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Plastic. Most plastics start breaking down over a certain temperature which is what happens when you have a very hot car left in the sun
Hot-Buttered_Mimsy · 7 points · Posted at 17:38:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My son's car seat broke in the middle of driving. It was terrifying.
StimulatorCam · -8 points · Posted at 17:40:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Half the interior of my car is plastic, and it hasn't disintegrated yet...
niteman555 · 9 points · Posted at 18:19:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No one's saying it'll disintegrate, but it will weaken. The plastic in your car isn't really designed to save you in an accident, while the plastic in a child's car seat is.
StimulatorCam · 2 points · Posted at 19:15:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Link to source article
Tactically_Fat · 2 points · Posted at 19:02:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
UV light, heat, and ozone will all work to degrade plastics over time.
Pleased_to_meet_u · 1 points · Posted at 20:03:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Mostly it's not that components degrade, it's that standards continue to improve.
If I were to take the original equipment and make a brand-new car seat using standards from 15 years ago, in general it would not be as safe as a 2017 model sold today.
duffman13jws · 3 points · Posted at 17:19:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It is that way with racecar safety equipment - there are FIA standards and SFI standards - SFI gear costs less, but expires in 2 years. FIA gear has a 5 year re-cert date.
ArchSchnitz · 1 points · Posted at 19:40:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There are three major and a few other safety ratings for motorcycle gear, most notably being DOT, Snell (two variations, apparently) and ECE 22-05. All of them have to meet DOT to be sold as safety gear, and the other standards are beyond that. I don't know that they have year requirements, but they definitely have crash and drop requirements after which they must be replaced in order to provide the intended benefit.
Which is sad, because they discontinued my helmet and I have such a huge fucking head it's hard to find something that fits.
thingpaint · 3 points · Posted at 17:47:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I believe they all are rated for the same amount of time.
Kylynara · 0 points · Posted at 18:53:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Generally 6 or 10 years, but that's a pretty big difference. Given that seats are often more than one type, you can exceed the limits with one child let alone handing them down.
Bazzie · 3 points · Posted at 19:26:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There are plenty of consumer organisations that test child seats and the differences are staggering. At times they even find ones that don't comply with the law and get repelled. More expensive sure as hell doesn't always mean better, but I don't agree you can just buy any random one and get about the same quality.
J_Kenji_Lopez-Alt · 6 points · Posted at 18:43:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Except I want my car, child safety seat, etc, to meet more than the minimum safety standard.
NSippy · 2 points · Posted at 20:10:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You might find this interesting. The IIHS has reviewed a large lot of booster seats, and has rated them. Some are "Not Recommended" due to their poor belt fitment on the passenger.
The seat might meet collision minimums and requirements, but it still might not be effective. There's very little regulation on car seats. The DOT doesn't approve them, and the only info you can get on your car seat being improper is if it's recalled and you find out about it. They just have to meet federal standards for a vehicle.
Kahzgul · 20 points · Posted at 18:28:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I recently bought a new "big kid" safety seat for my 4 year old.
Cheap safety seat: $18 at Target. Five star rating. Has removable and washable covers and two cupholders (why?). Appropriate for any child aged 4 and up, weighing 40-100 lbs.
Expensive safety seat: $215 at Target. Five star rating. Is made out of carbon fiber and has memory foam gel inserts (what is "foam gel? Who knows?). Has a back that is removable. Usable with back for ages 4 and up, weighing 30 lbs or more, or without back for ages 4 and up, weighing 40 lbs or more. Has four cup holders (WHY?). Comes in "cool" colors (the pink version of the exact same chair was $15 cheaper).
So I looked at these two chairs and I bought the cheap one. You're paying almost $200 more for a back that your kid will either never use or will barely use (most 4 year olds already weigh nearly 40 lbs, if not more - mine weight 39.5 lbs the day he turned 4 and he's average weight), 2 extra cupholders (which is still 3 more than you need), and cool carbon fiber and colors. Seriously if you have a child seat I don't think you need to worry about the weight reduction of using carbon fiber vs. plastic.
So yeah, it's not that you're being cheap with the life of your child; it's that you're not being ripped the fuck off.
jmoneycgt · 21 points · Posted at 18:47:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
One is for the chocolate milk that your child will leave in the car all weekend, the other is for the new chocolate milk. The reward you get as a parent is seeing their facial expression when they drink the wrong one.
Kahzgul · 4 points · Posted at 18:49:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Okay, I see where this is going. Now can you explain why the other one has FOUR?
TraipsingElephant · 6 points · Posted at 19:39:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Better odds
seredhras · 2 points · Posted at 19:28:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
3 old milks and 1 new is better odds for you than 1 and 1.
Kylynara · 7 points · Posted at 19:03:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I use the crap out of my younger son's 2 cupholders, and really miss the extra on the older son's seat.
One has a drink and one has a snack, or I put small toys in them if we're going to be driving awhile. They're basically the only place to put things if I want him to be able to access them himself while he's in the seat.
Kahzgul · 2 points · Posted at 19:06:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That makes sense, thanks.
AgoraiosBum · 4 points · Posted at 19:27:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What kind of monster deprives their child of 4 cupholders?
OneChordSong · 2 points · Posted at 19:12:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I paid more for a big kid seat so that my kid can stay in a 5 point harness longer. I'm no hurry to get to a less safe option and seatbelt only booster is less safe than a 5 point high back booster.
Kahzgul · 2 points · Posted at 22:29:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That makes sense. The two seats I'm describing were both shoulder harness seats using the car's existing seatbelts.
J_Kenji_Lopez-Alt · 1 points · Posted at 18:51:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Carbon fiber weighs less and has a longer lifespan than plastic which means your seat will be good for multiple kids. Weight is important for many people, as is fashion. You aren't being ripped off if you weigh the options and feel that the extra features are worth the extra money. Dollars don't have the same value for all people.
Kahzgul · 9 points · Posted at 18:56:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The single seat would need to last me through 11 kids to be more cost effective than just buying 11 of the other seat.
I should have mentioned that the $18 seat looks good, too. It's just not bright blue/green and carbon fiber. More of an elegant grey with charcoal covers.
J_Kenji_Lopez-Alt · 7 points · Posted at 18:57:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I mean, if buying and disposing of 11 seats is easier for you that's fine. My point is that different people have different priorities and needs so it's not very useful to judge them for making choices that fit their needs and means.
misslennox · 1 points · Posted at 02:18:00 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
The back is an important safety component for kids that can't keep the shoulder strap in place. That means they understand they need to sit still and have enough awareness when they're sleeping to stay upright. I switched my 8 and 9 year olds to backless booster seats recently and realized they're just not ready. When they fall asleep in the car they're flopping all over the place - it renders the shoulder strap useless. You don't have to pay $200 for one either, I think the cheaper ones are $50.
Kahzgul · 1 points · Posted at 03:13:58 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
That makes sense - I was intentionally using the cheapest 5-star seat and comparing it to the most expensive 5-star seat in order to illustrate how marked up the price of the pricy one was.
[deleted] · 5 points · Posted at 17:43:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's why manufacturers fleece you for all your cash. There's a point where the cost-benefit crosses.
DaddyCatALSO · 2 points · Posted at 18:21:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And they do say replace the seat if you actually experience a crash.
ISHLDPROBABLYBWRKING · 0 points · Posted at 17:51:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I know where you're coming from, but I'll spend the extra money for extra comfort or padding or extra safety. Yes I know they all get tested and pass the tests but they also are not all same. I got one that's a perfect size for my car and can be adjusted. Yes the cheaper one would have just as safe, but nothing else. It's my choice it I want to get child a more comfortable and wider seat for a little more money
[deleted] · 9 points · Posted at 18:12:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Which is fine. But what you said was "It's only your child's life you're being cheap with."
DarkPhenomenon · 3 points · Posted at 17:16:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's okay, children are easy and free to replace!
LandOfTheLostPass · 13 points · Posted at 17:26:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You've obviously never had to pay the hospital bill for a child's birth. The car seat was bupkis by comparison.
GrammatonYHWH · 3 points · Posted at 18:37:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Don't forget that making a new one is pretty fun too.
el_monstruo · 3 points · Posted at 18:10:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes, I spent $400 on The First Years True Fit IAlert C685 Car Seat when they first came out. It alerted you of the temperature, if the child was left in the car, etc. via Bluetooth on your smartphone. Unfortunately, it was a piece of crap. I think they may have scrapped it.
FroggyWatcher · 3 points · Posted at 18:37:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Isn't there a base safety standard for those to be sold? Sorta like condoms?
Harakiri69 · 2 points · Posted at 20:30:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
well if we would've bought the higher standard, more expensive condoms, we wouldn't be in this mess in the first place
ghc86 · 2 points · Posted at 20:07:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Don't they all have to meet the same basic safety requirements which are all very strict though? I have heard the same with baby food/formula. There is no reason to buy more expensive stuff because the regulations are very closely monitored for those things.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 06:14:06 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't think that is so. If you buy a cheap new child seat it meets all the same safety requirements as an expensive new child seat
andysaurus_rex · -2 points · Posted at 18:24:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'd still take the expensive one
Gl33m · 235 points · Posted at 15:58:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think that's why the word "fancy" is there. You absolutely need a child safety seat. But there's little difference between a 50 dollar seat and a 500 dollar seat. People pay more for what is a very slight or non-existent increase in safety, but don't pay a little bit for a major increase in safety by buying a fire extinguisher.
Edit: I keep getting the same replies about car seats. There are some people that focus on spending significantly more money for a small perceived increase in safety. Source: Mommy blogs and vlogs. Yes, I know there are other factors that can also come into play. Yes, I know that most people are rational humans that recognize that all the car seats are safe, and price differences come from other factors. That doesn't change the small group of people I was referring to...
tovasshi · 29 points · Posted at 16:25:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I bought the 500$ not because it was "safer". I bought it because it lasts from when they're a newborn until they're like 3 or 4 years old and it's easy to install and put a baby into it. If I bought the cheaper one, I'd end up buying one or two more down the line to accommodate the growing baby plus an additional seat for the other car due to how much is it sucks to try to install the cheaper seats.
Gl33m · 13 points · Posted at 16:34:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If that's your reason for buying, then you're definitely getting some kind of benefit for added costs. But there are absolutely people that buy a 500 dollar seat simply because it says it's safer.
tovasshi · 6 points · Posted at 16:52:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Im just a lazy person with a lot of money.
throwaway040501 · 1 points · Posted at 17:26:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'll trade you secrets to help with laziness for part of your money. But only in word increments per each payment.
alextound · -1 points · Posted at 18:15:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I bet your not even rich. . . Perhaps a wager of a pizza WITH A DRINK!?!?
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 20:52:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Same deal with motorcycle helmets. There's a lot of "don't but a $100 helmet unless you have a $100 head" type comments used to justify $500 helmets, but if the $100 helmet passes the same safety tests you're not getting more safety for the extra money. More comfort, less wind noise, lower weight, etc but not increased safety.
RazTehWaz · -1 points · Posted at 21:24:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I mean all those problems on a cheeper helmet could contribute towards distracting you and causing you to crash in the first place. It's hardly safe to have an uncomfortable helmet that you are trying to adjust or excess noise while you are literally being a projectile weaving between things that can crush you.
ExtraSmooth · 3 points · Posted at 17:55:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I mean just using your ballpark figures, you could buy 4 car seats per car and still save money
J_Kenji_Lopez-Alt · 3 points · Posted at 18:55:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And have to deal with the hassle of storing and moving all those seats. And the extra plastic and crap you have to throw away in a few years because the seats are expired. Etc.
shapte · -4 points · Posted at 17:31:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A £200 Graco Milestone does the same thing, btw.
tovasshi · 2 points · Posted at 17:39:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
With the exchange rate, that's the same price.
shapte · 0 points · Posted at 18:49:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
only if you've been in a coma since the early 80's. Otherwise, it's about 260 bucks — and that includes VAT.
tovasshi · 0 points · Posted at 21:11:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Im not American. I don't buy things in USD
shapte · 1 points · Posted at 05:45:14 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm not the one who started talking about $.
pleasedothenerdful · 6 points · Posted at 18:01:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The biggest bang for child safety seat buck is for a seat that will allow you to keep your kids facing backward longer.
OneChordSong · 1 points · Posted at 19:18:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes! My kid was off the charts in height and weight his whole toddlerhood. His car seat only RF to 40 lbs. he was 39lbs when he turned 2 and I knew we wanted to RF for longer than that so we bought a Clek Fllo. $$$ but I. LOVE. IT. So easy to install and is rock solid. It's now been handed down to the baby and we're still loving it.
pleasedothenerdful · 0 points · Posted at 19:24:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just make sure you pay attention to the expiration date on the seat.
OneChordSong · 1 points · Posted at 20:07:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Also one of the benefits of the $$$ seat. 9 year expiration.
Spazmer · 4 points · Posted at 16:56:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I paid a lot more for a carseat that was thinner. Probably exactly as safe as a walmart carseat, but for a hundred $ more I could fit 3 across my van instead of 2. Which with a daycare, is important. I think the price is not related to safety but the other features.
Gl33m · 4 points · Posted at 17:00:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You're a practical person with legit reasons. But not everyone is like that. A close friend of mine is pregnant with her first, and she's always reading mommy blogs and vlogs and shit. And those women go insane over safety ratings for car seats, and really do pay way more for minor perceived increases in safety.
QueenAlpaca · 1 points · Posted at 17:22:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oh lordy, one of those. I have family that think they're the best and have mommy (ick, hate the word) blogs simply because they popped a few out. They're also into those makeup pyramid schemes, I'll take their word when hell freezes over.
The_Great_Mighty_Poo · 5 points · Posted at 17:43:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Meh, it may be annoying, but they probably have some idea of what they are talking about. Sure, you may want to be wary when they say you HAVE to get the $500 carseat, but they are likely knowledgeable about which ones to stay away from. You don't have to like someone or hang onto their every word to get useful information from them.
QueenAlpaca · 1 points · Posted at 18:24:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If something's consistent among multiple accounts (such-and-such brand is awful), I'll believe it, but I fully don't trust a single thing they say. The bloggers I know are actually pretty terrible people with questionable lines of thinking, so I don't feel I can trust others with the same mindset as them (I'm a mommy, this means I'm validated to create a blog that shows my superior parenting practices!).
OneChordSong · 2 points · Posted at 19:20:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is why I like Amazon reviews. If something has 4.5 stars and over 1000 reviews, I feel like it's a very likely a good product.
QueenAlpaca · 1 points · Posted at 19:57:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yup, I'll trust that for sure; reading multiple reviews gives you a solid idea of what you're in for. Individuals with silly blogs, not so much.
motoko_urashima · 2 points · Posted at 18:15:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Unfortunately, you can only buy one kind of fire extinguisher, and it sucks.
The types I'm aware of are: 1) Class A (water) 2) Class AB (foam) 3) Class BC (CO2) 4) Class ABC (dry powder) 5) Class ABC (Halon) 6) Class D (copper powder) 7) Class K (dry powder)
Of all those, only #4 is available to the general public, the rest all need to be special ordered. If you've ever used one, you know how bad they are, and if you've ever used one in a confined space (kitchen or garage)... Yeah, you were coughing it up for weeks.
We have three of those dry powder extinguishers in the house, but I'd trade them in for CO2 at triple the price if I could just buy the damn things.
junkit33 · 1 points · Posted at 17:28:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's not for safety, it's for durability, style, ease of installation and adjustment, wider range of ages, etc.
It's like anything - if you buy the dollar store version of a product, it will get the job done at least once. But if it's something you're going to use often, you're typically better off spending some money on it.
Domukin · 2 points · Posted at 17:40:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
As someone who spent days trying out different car seats. It's not really about how fancy they are per se. Some car seats don't fit well in some cars and are awkward to use. In this case paying another $50-100 may very well be worth it to avoid an otherwise daily headache get the kid in and out of. Some people also don't install the car seat correctly... which defeats the whole purpose of getting one.
mastertwisted · 1 points · Posted at 19:48:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The difference in those two car seats is comfort, not safety IMO.
starkiller_bass · 1 points · Posted at 18:59:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I've seen wayyyy too many husband and wife arguments on this one.
I WANT THIS PRETTY ONE THAT COSTS $700
"But it does the same thing as the one that costs $50"
HOW CAN YOU BE SO CHEAP WHEN IT COMES TO OUR CHILD'S SAFETY?!?!?!
Note that many of these wives also have Louis Vuitton "diaper bags"
sonofaresiii · 0 points · Posted at 18:30:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I had to go through this recently and it seems to me that the thing about baby stuff is the price difference isn't really about safety, it's almost always about comfort, ease of use and cosmetics.
The $50 one will work fine. But it will be ergonomically difficult to carry, it'll look cheap, it'll be a pain in the ass to get in and out, etc.
whereas the $500 one will probably be really plush, easy to hold, nice padded ergonomically shaped handled, easy snaps for getting in and out, and look stylish.
Depends on what's important to you for where you want to put your money.
allergictobread · 0 points · Posted at 19:06:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's actually ease of use that you're paying for, most of the time. I have a cheap carseat and an expensive one and the expensive one is much easier to use, install, etc.
Clynch2113 · 0 points · Posted at 19:25:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I work for Toyota and the amount of people who'll replace their air filters which can wait and decline replacing their tires which are close to racing slicks because there's no fucking treads is rediculous
sociobubble · 7 points · Posted at 17:34:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I read an interesting article on the fact that there has never actually been direct comparison between a car seat and a regular seatbelt. All the statistics are a comparison between the car seat and no safety restraint. It also said that a high proportion of car seats are incorrectly fitted, making them less safe or potentially useless.
Hypothesis_Null · 8 points · Posted at 17:36:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Actually there's been no evidence that car seats (not for infants, but for kids) actually prevent deaths or serious injury.
And yet their mandated use has been enshrined in law in some states, up to kids 12 years old.
_eponymous_ · 4 points · Posted at 18:34:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Now they put expiration dates on them to prevent reuse and resell. Exactly how does a booster seat go bad?
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:28:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
_eponymous_ · 2 points · Posted at 20:51:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But lives on for eternity in the garbage heap. It's just a scam to get you to spend more.
Hypothesis_Null · 1 points · Posted at 18:41:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
... you're fucking kidding me.
_eponymous_ · 3 points · Posted at 20:55:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Nope. All a booster does is position the kid so that the belt doesn't snap her neck in a collision. Companies are so greedy that they pass laws to increase sales and make more profits from the average person and try to convince us that it is for the safety of the child.
PreyingPastor · 0 points · Posted at 19:06:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think it's because something like a booster seat stays inside a vehicle for the majority of its lifetime. After 5 summers of sitting in a sweltering hot car, the different components of the seat break down which can potentially make the seat unfit for use.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 19:37:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Eh, I'm pretty cheap, but I won't buy a used car seat (full seat, not a booster) for my baby. Same reason as I won't buy a used bike helmet or used car tires: you can't necessarily tell if it's been in a wreck and is structurally compromised. If I'm going to spend any money on a car seat, I'm not wanting to worry it's going to fail in the moment of truth.
But this doesn't speak directly to expiration dates, of course. My guess for that is them is that safety regs are probably updated regularly, and the expiration date is the company's way of covering its ass if someone holds onto a seat built to outdated regs.
Ninjaintrouble · 4 points · Posted at 19:39:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If anybody is interested the authors of superfreakonomics financed their own crash test because no manufacturer wanted to test child seats against standard safety belts.
satysin · 6 points · Posted at 16:15:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think what /u/sideclass was talking about is spending 5x the amount on a high end child seat which isn't actually any safer than a cheaper one. They all have to comply to the same safety standards after all. I guess it is similar to buying generic Paracetamol vs. some kind of branded product with impressive packaging claiming it "works within 10 minutes!" when all Paracetamol does that.
flekkie · 3 points · Posted at 18:54:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'll have to disappoint you, it's not true if you look at the stats. Let the freakonomics explain that to you (watch first 10 min)
quizibuck · 3 points · Posted at 18:55:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Actually, the Freakonomics guys did a bit on car seats and found that car seats are not a great bang for your buck on safety. In fact, in certain collisions, they found the child would be hurt worse in the car seat.
fuckingaccountnames · 2 points · Posted at 17:44:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How about child seat vs brakes for your minivan?
martinko1337 · 2 points · Posted at 18:44:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I've seen a lot of research and crash tests proving child seats to be quite counter productive actually increasing the risk of a neck snap. Apparently the seats are being heavily pushed by the manufacturers.
redrhyski · 2 points · Posted at 19:01:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You can't take a newborn out of some hospitals in the UK unless you bring a car seat for it. It's presumed you will be driving it somewhere at some point, so just bring that car seat along right now.
silvertondevil · 2 points · Posted at 19:37:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Fire extinguishers are $25 all day long at the grocery store.
whatnoreally · 229 points · Posted at 15:57:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
2000 dollar diamond jewelled twelve point child seat... 500 bucks for tires or ball joints "what a scam"
Epledryyk · 11 points · Posted at 18:32:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"Ma'am, your brake boots are deteriorating and will definitely leak eventually, if not tomorrow"
"Oh, that's fine, I'll deal with it when it happens"
ubercorsair · 5 points · Posted at 19:20:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"Fine, we'll be keeping an eye out for when it comes in on the back of a tow truck. And we'll work up the bodywork estimate then too."
[deleted] · 20 points · Posted at 17:28:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
reminds me of the saying that goes something like "never skimp on the things that seperate you from the ground", as in shoes, tires, matresses... i think a child seat would also qualify, but of course there's always the law of diminishing returns.
TmickyD · 2 points · Posted at 20:23:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What about the pedestal of superiority?
simcowking · 1 points · Posted at 21:02:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Undies! Never forget undies!
I sit a lot.
Origamihomework · 6 points · Posted at 18:38:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I didn't understand what that other guy was talking about this is a way better example
BerzinFodder · 2 points · Posted at 19:29:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ball joints are 500?
sgilbert2013 · 3 points · Posted at 19:35:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I had upper and lower ball joints on one side done at the same time for 380 bucks or something. All of them would probably be more like 700
pfun4125 · 1 points · Posted at 02:56:49 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
On the right vehicle, yes.
kinder-egg · 1 points · Posted at 19:46:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My friend's ball joint failed the other day. Scary. Luckily she wasn't on the highway and didn't run into anything.
GeorgeEpstein · 10 points · Posted at 17:46:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Different example, but was just talking to a friend that is a Pediatric Nurse and she said basically this exact thing. That some parents will leave a pediatrician for the simple fact that the scale isn't in the exam room, and they'd have to walk their baby 3ft to get weighed, and then say they want an 'alternative vaccine schedule.' But don't know anything about vaccine schedules. So, to your point, people get VERY concerned about things that do not matter at all, but won't do any research into things that could kill us. People are weird.
jmoneycgt · 6 points · Posted at 18:56:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Then they get mad that they have to pay 15 extra co-pays so their special snowflake "doesn't get autism."
lickthecowhappy · 9 points · Posted at 17:42:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I never bothered with a fire extinguisher until I bought a deep fryer. At that point I figured I would SERIOUSLY regret not having one. Especially if the ones in the apartment's hallway weren't for grease fires...
Korhaka · 4 points · Posted at 18:48:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Pro tip: If you dont have the extinguisher to hand or it will take some time to get it, soak a towel in water and put it over the fire. Usually the easiest option people have in the kitchen using materials almost everyone actually does have, rather than should have.
lickthecowhappy · 1 points · Posted at 20:37:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Good to know in case the extinguisher doesn't work for whatever reason!
misslennox · 1 points · Posted at 02:25:32 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ugh, don't do that. Putting water on a grease fire causes it to grow, even water in a towel. You need to cover it completely with a lid or another pan to smother the flames.
lickthecowhappy · 1 points · Posted at 15:47:32 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ok see, that's what i would have thought...
Thee_Lizard_Head · 7 points · Posted at 15:44:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This literally made me think of this past weekend. I was grilling food outside and something under the grates caught fire so I went inside the house asking where the extinguisher was and the family just kinda looked at me like "what extinguisher?" Like really??? Luckily we had a hose outside. . .
DondeT · 11 points · Posted at 16:29:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That hose won't be quite so lucky if they ever start a grease fire...
Thee_Lizard_Head · 2 points · Posted at 17:32:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
EXACTLY! Like let's keep the family together please and thanks.
Faust_8 · 10 points · Posted at 17:15:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"I have guns to protect my family!" --some dude with absolutely no security system besides a padlock. Because guns are more FUN than security systems.
Korhaka · 5 points · Posted at 18:51:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You might like this about guns.
[deleted] · -2 points · Posted at 18:55:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yet... some dudes probably have a gun and a security system.
Furthermore, some dudes probably carry a gun on them when they are going through a rough neighborhood or something (maybe even for something that can't really be avoided, like work).
Faust_8 · 5 points · Posted at 19:03:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
For sure. But the question is how many of the people who protest "but muh protection!" also have additional security measures? Is it a minority or a majority? My hunch is minority.
BionicSammich · 13 points · Posted at 17:48:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Car tyres. Please people, don't skimp on your tyres. Don't buy junk tyres made of Chinesium. Get some good high quality tyres. You'll thank me when your car can actually perform to the best of its ability to prevent you from having an accident. Its not a guarantee to not crash obviously, but it sure does reduce your chances.
Korhaka · 3 points · Posted at 18:47:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So.... Should I buy some Germanium tires to put on my Chinesium bike?
Satans_Pet · 5 points · Posted at 18:22:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Up vote for "Chinesium"
Chaotic-Catastrophe · 6 points · Posted at 16:08:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Fire extinguishers 'dramatically improve' safety? How common are fires in the home?
fatboyroy · 5 points · Posted at 18:21:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
it's the fire in my pants people have to worry about.
Erinysceidae · 3 points · Posted at 18:46:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's why people don't own them-- no one expects a fire. But fires happen; your home is full of electrical things that could short out, gas appliances that could leak, chemicals that can explode if heated. Irons, straighteners, stoves, cigarette butts.
It's insurance, a $20 investment against what might happen.
NoApollonia · 1 points · Posted at 20:57:14 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
True, but odds are if I am at home I'll notice something smoking and get it unplugged in time. If I'm not at home, the fire extinguisher isn't going to do any good since it cannot operate all on its own.
I live in an apartment with a fire extinguisher just a few feet from my door, so I haven't worried too much about it.
jmoneycgt · 2 points · Posted at 19:04:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It only takes one. $20-30 is waaaaay cheaper than making a claim on your homeowner's insurance.
Korhaka · 1 points · Posted at 19:07:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But isnt fighting the fire going against all advice given in the first place, which is to just get out of the building. Only use a fire extinguisher if you need it to get your self out.
notafuckingcakewalk · 5 points · Posted at 19:31:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You get out of the building if there is an established fire. It doesn't have to be that way if you have a fire extinguisher.
jmoneycgt · 1 points · Posted at 19:58:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's all about being reasonable. Small grease fire on your stove? Fire extinguisher time!
Your living room carpet and drapes are on fire and spreading quickly... GTFO.
FRESH_OUTTA_800AD · 2 points · Posted at 16:12:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Aaaaaand you just reminded me I need to buy some fire extinguishers. Thanks.
HotCheeseException · 1 points · Posted at 20:37:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Don't forget some smoke detectors, at least for your bedrooms.
simcowking · 1 points · Posted at 21:04:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I have them right outside my bedrooms. Should I be safe?
FRESH_OUTTA_800AD · 1 points · Posted at 18:59:24 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Got those!
Richmond__Avenal · 2 points · Posted at 16:57:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I've had a fire extinguisher in my amazon cart for the last two months...
-Tom- · 2 points · Posted at 17:19:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Or better tires, plus maintenance of safety items in the suspension.
dogfish83 · 2 points · Posted at 17:21:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
on top of that, and i'm sure there's a name for this, but people will do riskier things once they have the "safer" equipment. Your 5-star crash safety rating is not very useful if it makes you drive like a bat out of hell.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:02:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you're a parent and you're reading this:
All child seats have to pass the same tests. So the 100 dollar seat is just as safe as the 300 dollar seat. The difference sometimes is ease of use, but honestly if you're paying attention and putting the straps and clips where they go then you're good.
gretchenx7 · 1 points · Posted at 23:14:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Unless it's used. Don't buy used car seats. Ever.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 22:39:01 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
^ yep
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:11:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Is it statistically more likely for a car owner's home to go up in flames than it is for them to be in a car crash?
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:33:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's not the relevant question. Obviously any car seat at all is better than none. And given the frequency of car crashes, if you have to choose between a fire extinguisher and a car seat, I'm betting the odds say choose car seat.
But if you have say $150 bucks and a choice between a $150 car seat and no fire extinguisher or a $100 car seat and a $50 extinguisher, you'd be foolish to make that choice. And yet people do every day, because deaths to house fires are very often preventable yet people regularly go without alarms and extinguishers.
Also, quick stats I grabbed for the US:
In 2014 4.7 deaths per 1,000,000 due to fire ages 0-14 (all types of fire) I'm 2011, 1.3 deaths per 100,000 due to auto crashes among children under 12.
So yeah, get a car seat before you get an extinguisher, but DON'T neglect to get an extinguisher too. Even if you assume the nicer car seat is 1% safer, it's still a better risk reduction to improve fire safety.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 19:43:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Original comment didnt really make a distinction between different car seats, the 'fancy' part just seemed dismissive of car seats in general.
Doesnt mean a personal fire extinguisher would have helped either. I'd wager a lot of those fires started while people were asleep
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:48:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Good point about OPs wording. Obviously I disagree with OP if the merits of car seats are in question versus fire extinguishers. It isn't even close.
And yeah, many if not most fatal fires start while people are asleep and since most fatalities are in bedrooms, where there are no extinguishers, it stands to reason that extinguishers aren't a simple cure for fire deaths. Good alarms are going to be more useful, but also more expensive since you need them throughout the house.
Jatrap · 2 points · Posted at 18:23:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This post literally made me realize there isn't a fire extinguisher in my house. I've legitimately never thought of it before.
Brickie78 · 2 points · Posted at 18:35:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And the idea of "Health and Safety" seems often to be equated to "put on a high-viz and then do what you were going to do anyway"...
IngsocIstanbul · 2 points · Posted at 19:30:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I've seen plenty of people with fancy seats and the kid is dangerously improperly strapped in.
JorgenVonStrangle_ · 1 points · Posted at 18:37:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This guy is a perfect example https://youtu.be/goTojvhwrdc
WickedKoala · 1 points · Posted at 18:39:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I agree with your thought but with child seats you picked the absolute wrong example.
peensandrice · 1 points · Posted at 18:39:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
LPT: Fire extinguishers make great housewarming presents. Not exactly romantic or anything but hey, when there's a grease fire in the kitchen, a fire extinguisher is a hell of a lot more useful than a bottle of cheap wine.
fewdea · 1 points · Posted at 18:46:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I should buy a fire extinguisher...
Northwindlowlander · 1 points · Posted at 18:46:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
People like cars with big A-pillars because they feel safer. They're proven to cause more accidents, because they create a bigger blind spot. But they feel safe.
cow-eepp · 1 points · Posted at 19:00:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Everyone please take this opportunity to make sure there's a fire extinguisher handy (most people just need one in the kitchen). I recently saw a hundred thousand dollar Porsche saved by quick thinking and a handy fire extinguisher.
It's really nice to turn a catastrophe into a near miss.
BozzCL · 1 points · Posted at 19:10:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Crap, I forgot I needed to buy an extinguisher. Thanks for reminding me!
PM_ME__YOUR__FEARS · 1 points · Posted at 19:15:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Bruce Schneier has an excellent essay on that topic: The Psychology of Security
Froman1900 · 1 points · Posted at 19:16:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Tires tires tires. It's not a scam, tires can be the difference between stopping or turning safely or sliding into another car or off the road.
scrignutz · 1 points · Posted at 19:21:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Car seats for young children are required by law in industrialized nations, while fire extinguishers generally aren't mandatory outside of workplaces and public buildings.
Am a big fan of having good inexpensive fire extinguishers wherever I live, specifically in the kitchen and garage. I saved my house from burning down many years ago when I walked into the kitchen to find the dishwasher fully engulfed in flames that were licking the ceiling. It was an electrical fire with plastic, and it took most of that fire extinguisher to put it out, but I saved the house!
CocoSavege · 1 points · Posted at 19:27:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Your comment is potentially an interesting angle on marketing. I've gotta presume that there's a heckuva lot more markup/rent seeking availability in baby seats.
Or maybe it's just social. A child is safer in a house with a gun than in a house with a pool. And a "safety first" parent wouldn't have either.
KaiserPhil · 1 points · Posted at 19:31:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'd say this extends even more generally to risk of all kinds.
pointseeker · 1 points · Posted at 19:44:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I wonder how many people have died because of texting/social media-ing from driving. Has to be near the top of deaths under 50 these days.
Maxxover · 1 points · Posted at 19:45:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
An extinguisher is my favorite housewarming gift. As they are opening it, I say, "I hope you never use this gift." It's always appreciated.
Dascandy · 1 points · Posted at 19:52:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Regulations over here require you that, if you have a fire extinguisher, to have a yearly revision & checkup of it. But it's not a required thing to have. The net result is that instead of doing a very expensive yearly makeover of it, we now don't have one.
I'm very angry at this regulation.
Camoral · 1 points · Posted at 19:53:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You use the marginal equipment every day, but the emergency equipment in emergencies. The perceived value isn't in what they protect people from rather than the frequency with which they protect. It's dumb, but it's the most reasonable guess at the logic I can muster.
ColdSmokeMike · 1 points · Posted at 19:59:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Dude, my boss got a warning about our fire extinguisher at work because it hadn't been checked since 2004. That was a year ago and he still hasn't done anything about it. I honestly think he forgot a week after the inspection.
Journeyofart · 1 points · Posted at 20:01:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Can you give more examples?
HotCheeseException · 1 points · Posted at 20:14:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You are absolutely right! I did some research on both topics you mentined:
Fire alarms prevent you from dying while asleep, fire extinguishers may be helpful to stop small fires before its too late. Get some fire alarms before extinguishers and have two exit plans - this required me to get a small ladder.
With child safety seats its more important to have the right kind, eg backwards-facing or later one with a big cushion instead of small belts (like those from cybex). Its simple physics, which also require you to adjust your driving habits regarding distance and speed.
DontTreadOnBigfoot · 1 points · Posted at 20:15:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A similar concept was brought up at a tactical training I attended recently.
The head instructor was talking about someone who showed up with a $2k carbine with another $2k of glass on it and all the newest "cool-guy" gear, but when asked where his IFAK was, he said "I don't plan on getting shot".
Well nobody does, dummy. But shit happens. All the fancy rail-mounted can openers in the world won't help you when all you need is a damn $30 tourniquet.
obievil · 1 points · Posted at 23:15:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Years ago, I asked a woman why she drove like a maniac. Her response was "God won't let me die if it's not my time, so why shouldn't I?"
We're not friends anymore.
Anaract · 1 points · Posted at 02:41:58 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
What kills the most is people who won't do something once because there's a 0.01% chance that something terrible could happen to them. Won't swim in the ocean because shark attacks, won't hike because bears, won't skydive because parachute could malfunction
And yet they drive on the highway to work every day. Irrational fears are one thing, but at least admit that you have one
HGovindD · 1 points · Posted at 05:27:49 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I sense a kindred spirit here.
Please elaborate.
Thrumpledenoozitty · 1 points · Posted at 16:03:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Granted, I'm not an expert in safety, but I had to do the 40-hour JHSC course in safety and part of that was risk assessment. Basically it's not only about how likely injury is to happen but also about how severe, and those two factors together determine "risk". On our chart, any hazard that could result in severe injury or death is "high-risk" regardless of whether the likelihood of the hazard occurring is low. So I'm not sure what you mean by "dramatically improving safety", that statement doesn't make sense. It's about risk management.
rskogg · 1 points · Posted at 17:45:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Good one.
And everyone should learn CPR. It may be a rare occurrence to use it, but it really is a life or death issue.
If someone you love drops, and you could have helped....
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 17:10:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Bicycle helmet vs gloves
It is very rare a child bumps their head, they will almost certainly land on their hands - and then their face, while not scratching the helmet.
Letscurlbrah · 1 points · Posted at 18:50:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Risk is comprised of two components, likelihood and impact. When you mitigate risk, high impact low likelihood events get the majority of the attention.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:05:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes, that's was OP's point, to which I was providing an additional example.
StinkyWes · 1 points · Posted at 18:54:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'd rather have a helmet and some hurt hands than brain damage
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:04:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I didn't say don't wear the helmet. But I do recommend wearing the gloves.
earthgarden · -3 points · Posted at 15:39:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
you are compelled by law to have a baby/child seat.
you are not compelled by law to have a fire extinguisher.
Nobody buys a car seat for their kid just because. They do it because if they don't they will have to pay a ticket if caught. Baby/kid seats are something parents are basically forced to do; they won't even let you leave the hospital without a car seat for your baby.
If we did the same with fire extinguishers, more people would have them.
ETA: I grew up in the 1970s and '80s, trust me when I say people would not buy car seats unless forced to, because I saw it all unfold when the forcing went down. Car seats seem like a no-brainer when it's all you've known, and perhaps folks who grew up without it being a choice but necessity would buy car seats regardless. I would, same with using seat belts without it being forced, but I honestly don't think most folks would
Thrumpledenoozitty · 9 points · Posted at 16:10:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
They don't buy baby seats "just because", they do it because they don't want their child to die in a car accident. I mean even if the law didn't compel me to use one I still would, because I love my kid and I'd be devastated if he died a preventable death.
Idkwhat2write · 8 points · Posted at 15:53:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I would buy a car seat for safety and the fact that i dont want my baby scraped off the I-95
Thrumpledenoozitty · 5 points · Posted at 16:12:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Right? Like why do people think they are required by law, for shits and giggles?
One of my students was killed in a car accident along with three of his family members and his mother lost both of her legs. It's unimaginable to me what kind of suffering this woman woke up to. Why the fuck wouldn't you do your best to prevent the death of your child.
aak1992 · 1 points · Posted at 18:26:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This right here is why I give NHTSA safety ratings so much regard. My wife always pesters me about it when we car shop, I will pass over features, design, space, you name it- when it comes to her safety I choose the safest car I can afford.
We ended up buying a Volvo S60 last year for this reason, the competition had better infotainment, a few nicer options, etc. but I wanted the safety of the Volvo. My extended family acted like I was crazy and overreacting. Safety is something nobody cares about until it's too late.
FRESH_OUTTA_800AD · 3 points · Posted at 16:11:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not sure whether to upvote or downvote. Will leave it alone.
I am however purchasing two fire extinguishers right now.
505404yyy · 0 points · Posted at 17:22:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think a decent set of tyres on your car would be better than a fire extinguisher.
kimprobable · 0 points · Posted at 17:58:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't know about the seats - there are a lot of advantages that you don't find in the cheaper seats that can affect your cost long term. A higher weight limit (so that you can use the seat longer) was limited to a few pricier brands. Some let you reuse, or will repair, the seat after minor accidents, some are a lot easier to install, easier to clean, have more side impact protection - it's enough to make you break down crying when you need to figure out what seat you're going to get.
grimwalker · 0 points · Posted at 18:09:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Speed bumps kill people by slowing down ambulances at a rate higher than the lives they save.
PurplePeckerEater · 1 points · Posted at 19:11:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Seriously doubt that.
Source: EMT instructor.
grimwalker · 0 points · Posted at 20:13:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's a function of the fact that pedestrian traffic accidents are much less common than are in-home medical emergencies, and slowing the arrival and departure of ambulances by as much as a minute or two can have a measurable impact on mortality rates.
http://www.bromleytransport.org.uk/Ambulance_delays.htm
http://www.edmecka.com/Forms/tfc_calm.pdf
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 18:10:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If 100 extra dollars gives my daughter even 1% more safety then I will spend it.
Korhaka · 1 points · Posted at 19:11:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Right, but you would have to spend a lot more for 1% more safety, there are hundreds of very low risks, rather than a few high risks.
PurplePeckerEater · 1 points · Posted at 19:12:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Diminishing returns right there.
The point is that the $100 could be spent on something that actually needs it, like better tires.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:20:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The issue with this type of reasoning is that it's an incomplete picture. 1% of what?
For something frequent, a 1% reduction in fatality risk is nice. Worth $100. What about a tiny risk, though? Would you pay $100 dollars for a 1% reduction in risk for something that is 1 in a million? Because 1% less than 1 in a million is still basically 1 in a million.
Do you check on the age of aircraft when you fly? Because yes, newer aircraft are technically less likely to crash, but when the risk is already like one in ten million, the small difference in risks between old and new (which is greater than 1%) is basically nothing.
So do whatever is sensible and economical to protect yourself and your family, but when calculating risk you have to look at the scope of the risk before saying you'd do anything for another 1%.
PaddyTheLion · 0 points · Posted at 18:31:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't know where you live, but a "fancy" (I choose the term "proper") child safety seat in your vehicle will increase the child's chance of survival in a car crash by multitudes. We have a fairly expensive seat ($700-ish) for our daughter and I'd gladly pay the white out of my eye to ensure my child's absolute best chances for survival should something happen. Here you will be charged with involuntary manslaughter if your child is not property secured in a fatal crash.
Then again, we also have a fire extinguisher easily available in case of fire and do several fire drills per year, so I'm not sure I fall into the category you mention.
(I may have misinterpreted your comment, if so I'm sorry)
notafuckingcakewalk · 2 points · Posted at 19:32:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ours was closer to $100 or so. I'm sure yours was probably easier to use but ours did a fine job of securing our kid.
PaddyTheLion · 0 points · Posted at 19:47:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Probably a lot easier to use. We have the BeSafe iZi Kix X2: https://jolly-cdn5.azureedge.net/storage/ma/143a1e34b14e406b9e84ab739f4fd25a/6ec101e44db545368054d5fc8084c9c5/1200-1447-0-jpg.Jpeg/42949F05B3C89E0D735E96341BC71A19226D646E/389454.jpeg
To name some of the things I absolutely love about this seat: the orange circles on the sides are magnet that hold the belts in place when you take the child in or out of the chair so they don't get stuck in the belts. You can detach the seat from the base and use it in any car that doesn't have ISOfix handles, even forward-facing in the front passenger seat due to the adjustable foot rest. There's an anchor on the back of the seat that helps it stay in place should the ISOfix handles fail or if the car seat the child seat is standing on moves forward in a sudden stop. It's super easy to clean, anything and everything a toddler is able to lose, throw, spill, turn upside-down, regurgitate, poop, pee or in other ways soil the chair with is easily removed with a wet cloth and doesn't leave a smell. Believe me, I know.
My wife and I gladly spend more money on things that secure our child. I don't want to be in a position where I skimped on something that could potentially save her life or even make sure she doesn't get hurt as much as she would with an "inferior" (implying cheaper = inferior. We all know that's not always the case, but I'm not willing to take that chance whatsoever, not with my only child's life/health) thing protecting her. Maybe that's the helicopter dad talking, but I want only the absolute best for my child and I'm extremely thankful for being in a financial position where that's possible.
notafuckingcakewalk · 1 points · Posted at 21:38:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Huh. I thought you were never supposed to put a child safety seat in the front…
PaddyTheLion · 2 points · Posted at 14:22:39 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
This one is designed so you can use it in cars that have no other option, i.e. our small lorry that only has front seats.
PaddyTheLion · 2 points · Posted at 14:26:18 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Btw: there's nothing wrong with putting the child seat in the front seat if you disable the airbag on that side. Our daily driver Peugeot has that option. There's no law preventing anyone from using the front seat for a child, as long as the child is properly secured (i.e. disabling the airbag and using the belts/base properly).
Our local driver's ed college had a free course for parents about properly securing children in vehicles. We learned a ton.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:38:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Do you have any evidence you might have come across for this? I'm not necessarily doubting you, I just genuinely don't know. I do know that the catch-all answer people give of "they all pass the test" isn't entirely satisfactory because unless all test-passing car seats never have fatalities there's room for passing the test and doing better.
That said, if you're pursuing the maximum extremes in car seat safety, there are almost certainly other safety procedures and best practices you're neglecting that would pay better dividends. Like a fire evacuation plan and updated/tested equipment. Or driving slower. Or putting a child's bed on the floor to prevent falling from bed.
PaddyTheLion · 1 points · Posted at 14:28:44 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's my own bias I guess. As long as the child is properly secured it shouldn't matter, because as you say, all chairs/seats pass the test. I'm just not willing to take that risk by gjetting a cheaper seat/chair when I can afford one from the top shelf.
PaddyTheLion · 1 points · Posted at 14:35:20 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Regarding other factors in a car crash: we have window busters on both sides and in the back, a small fire extinguisher in the back (a fire in a car accident is super uncommon, but you never know what you will encounter) along with first ait kit and reflective vests for every seat in the car. I'm not humblebragging when I say I'm a very observant driver (I've avoided being in many crashes simply by keeping an eye on my surroundings). There's not much else I feel I can do. Open for suggestions, of course.
Then again, you can be all that is perfect on the road, but how anything in traffic turns out is really up the person in the opposite lane..
Regarding the extreme of having the child sleep on the floor because then they won't fall out of bed: jeez Louise.
notafuckingcakewalk · 0 points · Posted at 19:28:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I mean, we bought a fairly basic child safety seat that had the added advantage of working for a very long time. Our son is 5 and still using (and fitting perfectly into) the same seat we used for him as an infant.
If your argument is that child safety seats don't need to be fancy I 100% agree with you. If your argument is that child safety seats themselves only offer a marginal increase in safety I'm going to have to disagree with you. Automobile accidents are way more common than fires, and generally more deadly as well.
For what it's worth, I have 2 fire extinguishers in the house as well (one near the kitchen, one near the bedrooms).
EDIT: Not sure why my comment was downvoted. If the person who downvoted wants to explain what was wrong with my comment or how it didn't add to the discussion that'd be great.
joculator · 448 points · Posted at 15:00:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Inside voice as opposed to outside voice.
[deleted] · 23 points · Posted at 18:58:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So much this.
I mean, I'm a relatively quiet person anyways, but still. Some people are just fucking loud, no matter where they are or what the situation is, and I don't understand why. I seriously wonder how they are not embarrassed, or if no one has told them how obnoxious they are. It makes me uncomfortable.
thor_barley · 4 points · Posted at 20:26:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Shouting a conversation around people that aren't participating makes people appear immature, intoxicated, and/or completely lacking class.
[deleted] · 5 points · Posted at 20:01:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When I was a kid, it was drilled into us to talk sparingly in the library, and when we did talk to talk in hushed tones. But that rules disappeared some time in the past 40 years. Even the librarians yammer away at the checkout desk at full volume.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 18:50:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Eclania · 5 points · Posted at 19:12:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't have an inside voice. My gf has actually gestured like she's turning a volume dial when I'm getting too loud and ngl it's embarassing. I don't like causing a scene or making people uncomfortable but I used my voice when I was younger as a way to get noticed because I felt ignored, which is connected to my insecurity about my stature. Also my family is really loud.
Space_Fanatic · 4 points · Posted at 19:38:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Similar to this is quietly walking. I got new upstairs neighbors recently and their young children are like a pair of hyperactive elephants stomping around all the time.
JetPackHolley · 6 points · Posted at 18:57:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My kid is one of these. He screams everything. Not in an angry way, just in a "surely the neighbors want to hear me tell you what I'm building in minecraft" way.
melig1991 · 3 points · Posted at 22:06:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And you haven't corrected him in this yet? Just asking.
JetPackHolley · 3 points · Posted at 22:07:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oh, I correct him about ten times a day. But he's high functioning autistic and I try to pick my battles for the most part, ya know?
[deleted] · 6 points · Posted at 18:47:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I FLOW LIKE BEYONCE'S MAN. HEAVY. I FORGOT MY PURSE. DO YOU HAVE A SPARE TAMPON?
srcarruth · 4 points · Posted at 18:58:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
BUT IF I'M ON A PHONE CALL I HAVE TO ALWAYS BE YELLING IN THE GROCERY STORE
chandlerjo4 · 2 points · Posted at 19:41:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I spend most of my life indoors and hold the majority of my conversations, using various volumes, indoors. Therefore, every tone of voice I use is an indoor voice. Correct?
nofixie · 3 points · Posted at 18:59:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm not sure which is more annoying: someone who is outside using their inside voice or vice versa.
choolius · 1 points · Posted at 19:26:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
American?
trex005 · 1 points · Posted at 19:27:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My kids have this exactly backwards.
arnauddutilh · 1 points · Posted at 19:53:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I have a relatively deep voice that just resonates, so I have this problem. Half whisper is my inside voice.
Ardub23 · 1 points · Posted at 19:59:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
what do you mean?
NiftyDarkrider981 · 1 points · Posted at 17:33:24 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is the worst in movie theaters, some people don't know how to whisper.
Jaberkaty · 1 points · Posted at 18:37:39 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I blame Dora the Explorer. Bitch has no inside voice.
making_mischief · 0 points · Posted at 21:24:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think I'm incapable of an indoor voice :( even when I'm trying hard to whisper, my mom and sister tell me, "omg, EVERYONE can hear you!"
I'm really sorry, guys. I'm working hard on my indoor voice, but I honestly have no idea that I'm heard so loudly or how whispering really works :(
scottevil110 · 9518 points · Posted at 14:18:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
EVERYONE can't be above average.
Edit: Not everyone can be above average would have been the more correct way to say this, but clearly everyone understood what I was saying.
Edit 2: Guys, I'm a statistician. I know that there are plenty of cases where MOST people can be above average. Any time you don't have a symmetric distribution, if you define the average as the mean. I said EVERYONE. There is no case where EVERYONE can be above average. If all but one person is above average, and that one person is WAY below, then that's still not everyone, now is it?
BurnedOut_ITGuy · 4259 points · Posted at 15:13:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Most people in the world have an above average number of legs though.
CanadianWizardess · 2595 points · Posted at 16:14:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"The average person has one fallopian tube." --Bo Burnham
ADarkTwist · 1293 points · Posted at 16:28:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Remember, the average person only has a 2.5" penis.
undercooked_lasagna · 1074 points · Posted at 16:45:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oh shit yeah I always knew it was average!
Feiyue · 136 points · Posted at 17:20:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes!
I'm double the average!
ACuriousPiscine · 255 points · Posted at 17:53:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You have two 2.5 inch penises?
_pin_ · 27 points · Posted at 18:25:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oop, now they're two 9" schlongs that literally turn women inside out.
Iaresamurai · 6 points · Posted at 18:35:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Turns out my 2 ding dongs were so big that I got an operation to create a third workable 9" appendage
ama
cowboydirtydan · 2 points · Posted at 19:22:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Did it hurt? What did you do with the other penises?
Iaresamurai · 2 points · Posted at 21:28:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
ama over I'm far too busy pleasuring women with my 3 penises
ThePointForward · 7 points · Posted at 18:56:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
/u/doubledickdude?
LofeeZ · 2 points · Posted at 19:04:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Did we find u/doubledickdude's alt?
[deleted] · 12 points · Posted at 17:51:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Quit bragging.
d1770 · 5 points · Posted at 17:58:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm half the average!
ZombieBarney · 4 points · Posted at 18:09:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Twice the pride, double the fallopian!
grangry · 4 points · Posted at 18:23:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oh! Good for you, Mr. Longdong.
Edit: or Mrs. didn't mean to assume your gender.
toforama · 6 points · Posted at 17:52:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Damn. Only half the average here.
basiamille · 3 points · Posted at 18:25:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Especially if the average number of penises per person is slightly less than 0.5!
e126 · 2 points · Posted at 17:57:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Phew, I'm not quite as small as I thought
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 21:26:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, well I'm just below average!
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:52:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's in inches not centimetres tho :o
hecking-doggo · 6 points · Posted at 17:37:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Damn, lucky.
Morphang · 6 points · Posted at 17:52:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It would be higher but you can thank me for dropping the average.
[deleted] · 12 points · Posted at 17:03:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
i'm still below average lame
[deleted] · 5 points · Posted at 17:37:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Wow my penis is an inch longer than the average one!
GGAllinsMicroPenis · 5 points · Posted at 17:22:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
ಠ_ಠ
mini4x · 1 points · Posted at 17:43:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Around?
Down4whiteTrash · 1 points · Posted at 17:52:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm definitely above average with 4.
NomNomGravy · 1 points · Posted at 18:28:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Erect?
Complaingeleno · 1 points · Posted at 18:58:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The average penis length on a person is 2.5"
FTFY
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:58:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This fucked me up for a second.
suckbothmydicks · 1 points · Posted at 19:09:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Are you calling me a liar!?
ADarkTwist · 1 points · Posted at 19:11:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I have no idea what that's supposed to mean.
Evanescent_contrail · 1 points · Posted at 19:20:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Less! There are more women than men in the world.
CaptainSnippy · 1 points · Posted at 19:55:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That should be on a motivational poster.
ReckoningGotham · 1 points · Posted at 19:59:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
well since half the population is women, isn't the average 11 inches?
ADarkTwist · 1 points · Posted at 20:03:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
...What?
ReckoningGotham · 1 points · Posted at 20:37:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
the actual average penis size is around 5.5-6 inches globally.
half the population is women, and their penis size is zero.
that means that men, on average, have to have at least 11" dongs to make the global average of 5.5 inches work.
my girlfriend's dong is but tiny and weak compared to mine, which is only merely timid and afraid.
llewkeller · 1 points · Posted at 20:18:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You say the average "person." So to get that 2.5 number, I'm guessing you measured the men and entered all those lengths, then entered "0" for all the women, then calculated the average.
milkchococurry · 2 points · Posted at 16:47:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Please tell me you're being serious.
EDIT: I'm not smart.
paper_noose · 24 points · Posted at 16:56:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Average penis size of males is approximately 5 inches. Average penis size of the human population would be around 2.5 (lots of zeros coming in to play by the women folk.)
Actually thinking about the math it would probably be less than 2.5, right? 1/2 the population with 0 and and 1/2 greater than 0... wouldn't that drag it below 2.5? Would 2.5 be the median? I haven't taken statistics in forever... somebody educate me!!
Utkar22 · 15 points · Posted at 17:14:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And then there must be some Theon Greyjoys
Citizen51 · 7 points · Posted at 17:20:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I would default to Grey Worm
matt123macdoug · 5 points · Posted at 17:32:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
He got to get up in Missandei though
Citizen51 · 2 points · Posted at 17:54:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I assume fingers
matt123macdoug · 1 points · Posted at 19:21:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's all good
kendrone · 13 points · Posted at 17:17:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If average for penis size is 5", and we take that very nearly 50% of people have a penis, then the average (mean) amount of penis per person is 2.5". It's like if half of everyone had on average 5 coins, and the other half of everyone had no coins, the average (mean) would be 2.5 coins.
Median would certainly be 0" though. Half of everyone is born without a penis. A non-zero number of people go from having a penis to not having one. This means fractionally more than half of all people have 0" of penis. Median being the value between lowest and highest by population count, it'd be one of the 0" people by sheer majority.
Mode would also be 0", as those with a penis would have varying lengths to any useable number of significant figures. As before, more than half of everyone, just about, has 0" of penis.
HOWEVER, this is the average amount of penis that any given person has. The average length of penis remains 5" despite most people not having one. If one person owns a 100k house, and nine other people are homeless, the average house price is still 100k; nine other people just don't factor in to the equation.
Level_32_Mage · 3 points · Posted at 18:07:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I wanted answers, not word problems!
kendrone · 3 points · Posted at 18:41:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The answer is a mean of 2.5" penis per person, and mean of 5" penis per penis.
There's your word solution.
Level_32_Mage · 1 points · Posted at 19:50:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
TL;DR!
kendrone · 1 points · Posted at 20:46:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You're still below average.
Level_32_Mage · 1 points · Posted at 23:27:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Thanks, short and to the point. Just how the ladies like it.
...right?
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:59:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
having no penis is different than having a 0-inch penis.
This thread is lousy for statistics
kendrone · 2 points · Posted at 19:04:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I specifically phrased it "penis per person" to account for a lack of penis, AND reaffirmed that the average penis length remains 5" regardless of how many people are without a penis.
So are you agreeing with me and calling the rest of the thread lousy, or misreading my comment?
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:06:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
that sounds about right...
kendrone · 1 points · Posted at 19:13:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Glad we cleared that up :) Enjoy your redditting.
Stef-fa-fa · 9 points · Posted at 18:08:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
NULL IS NOT ZERO.
You don't factor in null values in data sets when analyzing sample data, you only consider non-null sample points, meaning that anyone without a penis would not be considered (they don't have a zero inch penis, because they don't have one at all). Therefore, the average penis size is still 5 inches.
Bo's line about fallopian tubes IS accurate however, since most people have 0 or 2 tubes, which can be averaged together since we're not considering any null values (again, since 0 and null are not the same, and the value being worked with for males is 0, not "null" as you can't have a null amount of something).
Sauce: Market Research Survey Programming Tech Lead.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:58:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
that's only if you define the penis size of a person with no penis as 0, which really doesn't make sense.
StabbyDMcStabberson · 1 points · Posted at 19:43:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Women are 51% of the population, so bump that number a bit lower.
marpocky · 1 points · Posted at 20:18:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Nah it's OK, I bring the average back up.
TheTVDB · 1 points · Posted at 19:47:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The average penis size of ADULT males is 5 inches. There are around 1.9 billion children in the world, which means there are a little under 1 billion male children in the world. That's enough to skew the average much lower than 5 inches.
Additionally, the 5 inch value is when erect. Unless we're suggesting that everyone is erect right now, the average for adult males is closer to 3.5 inches. I would guess with this info the average size for males is closer to 3 inches which means the average for everyone is around 1.5. Note that penis size decreases for the elderly as well, but this is likely accounted for in the male average, since I couldn't find age ranges associated with that figure.
elias_csgo · 4 points · Posted at 16:51:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Males/females
densetsu23 · 1 points · Posted at 18:44:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
NULL != 0
ADarkTwist · 4 points · Posted at 18:52:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I know, but the joke was worth it.
Reisi007 · 0 points · Posted at 17:23:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Having an errction or not? Mine is effected at least 6,3". What I am interested in is the average perimeter of an errcted penis. Anyone?
ADarkTwist · 3 points · Posted at 18:15:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you're actually interested there's a fairly lengthy (pun somewhat intended) article on wikipedia. Not going to link as I'm at work/school, but if I remember correctly average length is 5-5.5" and average circumference is 4.8", depending on what study you look at.
Reisi007 · 1 points · Posted at 18:18:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Wow, I never saw my penis as biggish up to now
Drinkaholik · 3 points · Posted at 19:02:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I wouldn't really say big, but I've heard that most women prefer around a 6" dick so that's a plus for you
Stef-fa-fa · 1 points · Posted at 18:09:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You mean circumference?
Reisi007 · 2 points · Posted at 18:13:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes, diameter and circumference are similar d * PI = C.
man-rata · 3 points · Posted at 18:09:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The median person has two fallopian tubes.
dalalphabet · 6 points · Posted at 18:21:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Actually, the average is less than that, because there are tons of people who have had them surgically removed.
Bopnop · 3 points · Posted at 19:09:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You round up from such a small amount though
kjswis · 3 points · Posted at 18:21:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I actually only have 1 fallopian tube. Does that make me more or less average?
trooper5010 · 6 points · Posted at 18:54:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well since the average person has 1 fallopian tube, that would make you exactly average.
mckulty · 3 points · Posted at 18:35:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And one testicle.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:17:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When did he say this?
IpwnSummoners · 4 points · Posted at 18:53:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
During Words Words Words.
Throwrt123456789 · 2 points · Posted at 19:56:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"I cant write jokes for the average person, the average person is fucking Chinese" - Frankie Boyle
Scientific_Methods · 3 points · Posted at 18:35:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
False. I know several women with only 1 fallopian tube, and no women with 3. So the average is less than 1.
kyew · 3 points · Posted at 19:17:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But there are slightly more women in the world than men. Does the amount of women with 1 or 0 fallopian tubes offset that?
Scientific_Methods · 0 points · Posted at 19:32:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Haven't thought that hard about it. Buy my assumption would be yes, the average would still be <1
MooMooHullabaloo · 1 points · Posted at 18:40:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Wait, a little more than that, since 5here is a slightly greater number of women on earth
square--one · 1 points · Posted at 19:33:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yay, I'm average!
sydactylion · 1 points · Posted at 22:11:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
As a woman that actually only has one Fallopian tube, this joke makes me smile.
paaulo · 0 points · Posted at 17:23:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And Sarah Palin's kids have 46.2 cromossoms.
Heyyyo_ · 10 points · Posted at 18:04:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What the fuck is a cromossom?
paaulo · 7 points · Posted at 18:06:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's a chromosome written in bad englando.
StabbyPants · -4 points · Posted at 16:56:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
the average person has either two or zero
pixelfreeze · 2 points · Posted at 18:20:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So, one.
StabbyPants · -1 points · Posted at 18:39:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
no. someone with one fallopian tube is in the far minority. by no means 'average'
GlassShatter-mk2 · 2 points · Posted at 18:55:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Wooosh.
StabbyPants · 1 points · Posted at 19:09:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Indeed
SadGhoster87 · 1 points · Posted at 00:48:34 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
What do you think an average is?
StabbyPants · 1 points · Posted at 01:40:32 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
i think in this case, it's the median or mode. just like the average guy's income is the median income
D4ngerD4nger · 63 points · Posted at 15:55:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
...damn
StetCW · 30 points · Posted at 17:09:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What, do you Mean?
Llodsliat · 35 points · Posted at 17:18:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Many people have two legs, but some people have one or none, and nobody has more than two. This means that even though most people have two legs, the average is slightly below that.
oodsigma · 22 points · Posted at 17:45:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Bah, I'm sure SOMEONE has more than 2. A vestigial twin or something. It still works it because that's less common than missing them though.
ipostcat · 11 points · Posted at 18:37:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ignoring the fact you missed the "Mean" joke, many people would round up to whole legs and thus negate that point and the joke.
Sean1708 · 5 points · Posted at 18:42:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In reality you just wouldn't use the mean in this case, mode's probably the most sensible.
Frost_Ravenstorm · 8 points · Posted at 19:02:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Median. Median is most sensible.
saors · 3 points · Posted at 19:04:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Median is usually most sensible.
Ed_Alchemist · 4 points · Posted at 18:05:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not if you take the median.
25121642 · 1 points · Posted at 17:25:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Woosh
AbeLincolnsFreckles · 2 points · Posted at 18:23:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Total number of people divided by total number of attached human legs is less than 2.
oneonetwooneonetwo · 4 points · Posted at 18:57:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What is that kind of average called?
dr1fter · 2 points · Posted at 21:06:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Um... the reciprocal?
AbeLincolnsFreckles · 1 points · Posted at 19:03:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oops, thought "Woosh" person was referring to themselves as not understanding. Didn't really see above.
Sean1708 · 1 points · Posted at 18:41:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What, do you mean?
PoisonMind · 8 points · Posted at 18:30:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"Pardon me for staring," said Milo, after he had been staring for some time, "but I've never seen half a child before."
"It's .58 to be precise," replied the child from the left side of his mouth (which happened to be the only side of his mouth).
"I beg your pardon?" said Milo.
"It's .58," he repeated; "it's a little bit more than a half."
"Have you always been that way?" asked Milo impatiently, for he felt that that was a needlessly fine distinction.
"My goodness, no," the child assured him. "A few years ago I was just .42 and, believe me, that was terribly inconvenient."
"What is the rest of your family like?" said Milo, this time a bit more sympathetically.
"Oh, we're just the average family," he said thoughtfully; "mother, father, and 2.58 children—and, as I explained, I'm the .58."
"It must be rather odd being only part of a person," Milo remarked.
"Not at all," said the child. "Every average family has 2.58 children, so I always have someone to play with. Besides, each family also has an average of 1.3 automobiles, and since I'm the only one who can drive three tenths of a car, I get to use it all the time."
DukeMo · 9 points · Posted at 17:40:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is why the 'mode' exists as a measure of average.
saors · 4 points · Posted at 19:09:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No, median is better.
Take the following set of numbers: 0, 0, 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7
The mode is 0, while the average is 2.8 and the median is 2.5
So, the median is closer to the average than the mode is. But the strength of the median is that it isn't thrown off by outliers; if we add 100 to the end of the list, the average goes from 2.8 to 12.8 while the median goes from 2.5 to 3.
You probably already know a lot of this, but I got carried away typing...
¯\(ツ)/¯
DukeMo · 1 points · Posted at 21:36:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Mode is better for average number of x body part, imo. I mean... mode really only makes sense in this context. I would agree that in other contexts, median is better.
Good info, though.
Frost_Ravenstorm · 3 points · Posted at 19:03:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Or the median, which gives a better result in this case.
whatlike_withacloth · 2 points · Posted at 18:31:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Average = mean = summation/population. Mode is the most frequently occurring value and is not the average at all.
edit: different strokes for different folks I guess, but if I asked someone to find the average of a group of values I would not expect them to come back with the mode.
Sean1708 · 3 points · Posted at 18:46:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Uhh no, average can be synonymous for mean but more commonly refers to central tendency.
In reality though, if it matters you should be explicit.
whatlike_withacloth · 1 points · Posted at 20:05:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Right, because different dictionaries may define differently. Both dictionaries agree that it's generally the arithmetic mean.
I agree you should be specific, but in my general experience when someone says "average" in a statistical or scientific sense, they're referring to the mean and not other measures of central tendency.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 17:52:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Probably not upvoted enough, this unintuitive truth
Gibborim · 2 points · Posted at 18:07:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A perfect illustration of average vs median.
man-rata · 2 points · Posted at 18:09:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, but most people in the world have the median amount of legs.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:34:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
By the same logic most male have a below average number of penis thanks to /u/doubledickdude
fj333 · 2 points · Posted at 18:53:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No, because live male can have zero penis also. But your suggestion is true for the human head.
Azariah98 · 2 points · Posted at 17:15:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Given that the average number of legs has to be below 2.000000 (many more 1s than 3s) I would suspect that most are above average.
BananApocalypse · 5 points · Posted at 17:57:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But using mean as an average here is just foolish. It's a perfect example of a case where you should use mode.
That would make the average exactly 2.
DuceGiharm · 3 points · Posted at 18:15:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
no, that would make the mode exactly 2
BananApocalypse · 2 points · Posted at 18:33:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And mode is a type of average, just like mean.
Azariah98 · 2 points · Posted at 18:27:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's not as funny, though.
JamEngulfer221 · 2 points · Posted at 18:00:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No, most people have the average number of legs, 2.
I used the median/mode number of legs, you used the mean number of legs.
Both statements are correct.
ASUSteve · 4 points · Posted at 18:11:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't think many people use the word "average" to say median/mode, it always refers to the mean. Even putting =Average() in Excel gets you the arithmetic mean.
JamEngulfer221 · 1 points · Posted at 01:36:13 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, true. But when you start saying stuff about the average number of legs, I think that starts to fall into the realm of statistics, where 'the average' doesn't really mean anything.
ASUSteve · 1 points · Posted at 02:17:57 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Statistics isn't meaningless, it's math. Mean, mode, and median are statistics. The fact that "the average" has a singular definition of the arithmetic mean is exactly what gives it meaning, and what makes the joke funny. Words lose meaning when you arbitrarily change their definition to suit you.
JamEngulfer221 · 1 points · Posted at 13:57:31 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I've always heard the mean, mode and median referred to as 'averages'.
I understand the joke, but I thought it was a good place to mention the different types of averages that we can have.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:21:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
DispenserHead · 1 points · Posted at 17:25:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The average amount of legs is less than two due to amputees.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:28:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
sionnach · 2 points · Posted at 17:29:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Modal average vs mean average.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 17:30:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
He didn't say the average human has 2 legs, he said the average number of legs across all humans is slightly less than 2.
Luke2001 · 1 points · Posted at 18:01:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well to be technically I would guess the average number is about ~1.99999999999, so most have an above average number of legs.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:04:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Can confirm, am human tripod
3lRey · 1 points · Posted at 18:12:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This guy right here.
Lastrevio · 1 points · Posted at 18:20:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
yes, but not everyone
Ryslin · 1 points · Posted at 18:52:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Fake News: Average number of legs is probably pretty close to 6.
fj333 · 1 points · Posted at 18:54:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And a below average number of heads.
lambdaknight · 1 points · Posted at 19:45:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Statisticians tend to use to median as the preferred measure of central tendency (average) precisely because of things like this. If you use the median, most people have the average number of legs.
vanostran · 1 points · Posted at 19:58:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And I'm glad because two are awesome!
shiny0metal0ass · 1 points · Posted at 17:15:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This guy maths.
h1ghHorseman · 850 points · Posted at 14:42:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sure they can.
Just... some people are going to be above average at things like basket weaving and gum chewing, and some people are going to be above average at science and math. Everybody can't be above average overall though.
scottevil110 · 478 points · Posted at 14:51:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Everyone can't be above average at a given task. Everyone likes to believe they are better than average at driving, for example. They clearly can't all be.
AgentElman · 615 points · Posted at 15:54:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
90% of people can be above average if the other 10% are really bad. Assuming by average you mean the mean and not the mode.
scottevil110 · 198 points · Posted at 16:05:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
True, but very few things are that skewed.
pokexchespin · 238 points · Posted at 16:29:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Legs are
biffleboff · 17 points · Posted at 17:25:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How'd y'all know about ma skewed legs :(
Ubernicken · 7 points · Posted at 17:39:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Is this some new meme/meta that I missed out on?
Sasktachi · 5 points · Posted at 18:12:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The average will be slightly less than two legs because the vast majority have 2, but some rare people have 1 or none.
neonmarkov · 4 points · Posted at 18:10:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Nah, it's just a fun fact
derpaperdhapley · 3 points · Posted at 17:53:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's a Metameme at this point.
Ravn000 · 1 points · Posted at 18:33:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If ya legs are skewed you gon get screwed...
I don't know what this is supposed to mean but I wanted to say it.
WhipTheLlama · -2 points · Posted at 17:32:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No they're not. The legs example only works if you don't round a number that should obviously be rounded.
If a small percentage of people had -1000 legs, then it would skew the average.
MachoManShark · 10 points · Posted at 17:39:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I have -1000 legs.
Heavy_Weapons_Guy_ · 2 points · Posted at 18:13:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
noice
aNoiceBot · 3 points · Posted at 18:13:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Very noice
Jordaneer · 1 points · Posted at 20:01:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Good bot
dancesLikeaRetard · 2 points · Posted at 18:53:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Be honest Mr ManShark, have you got a thousand people's legs?
MachoManShark · 1 points · Posted at 19:11:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No, people have a thousand of my legs.
HardCounter · 3 points · Posted at 18:57:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No, this is true of everything.
If you have 100 people and 99 of them have an IQ of 100, while 1 has an IQ of 90, the average is IQ is 99.9. 99% of the people have an above average IQ. No reason to round objective numbers. A majority of people can absolutely be above average within a small sample size.
Obviously with IQ, as with most things in humanity, there's an overall bell curve though.
e3super · 7 points · Posted at 17:21:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Driving is an example that is pretty skewed, though. I've had hundreds of car rides that were reasonably comfortable, and I've interacted with thousands of other drivers doing nothing of note, then I've ridden with one girl who could give you a panic attack driving you to the other side of a parking lot. Also, one of my sister's friends once drove our ATV into a ditch because she just missed the road she was turning in to, not to mention she hasn't gotten her driver's license at 25 because she failed the test +-10 times.
phlummox · 1 points · Posted at 17:02:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah. Just things like - number of arms, eyes, ears, legs, lungs, kidneys, …
ImpostorSyndromish · 1 points · Posted at 18:07:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
use the median.
CestMoiIci · 1 points · Posted at 18:50:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Driving may be
MrXian · 1 points · Posted at 19:49:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think you'd be surprised.
scottevil110 · 1 points · Posted at 19:50:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm happy to learn. Have you got any examples where 90% of the population is above the mean?
MrXian · 1 points · Posted at 21:36:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Driving, probably. Large swathes of the population can't physically reach the steering wheel and pedals at the same time, so average could well be hitting the car in front of you.
AgentElman · 1 points · Posted at 16:41:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I imagine almost every human behavior is about that skewed if you figure 10% of humans are babies or toddlers.
I imagine that you are assuming a filter for people who you think are average and ignoring the outliers.
Millikan · 29 points · Posted at 16:45:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think you mean the median, not the mode. The median is the value that half are above, the mode is the most often occurring value. Just fyi
shleppenwolf · 5 points · Posted at 17:23:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The Denver Post once reported, very disapprovingly, that 50% of students in the city school system were below median reading skills...
lmr6000 · 2 points · Posted at 18:07:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is what get when a half of Denver Post reporters have below median math skills.
AgentElman · 3 points · Posted at 16:50:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You are probably right.
glass20 · 4 points · Posted at 16:13:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Or median, for that matter.
guitar_vigilante · 3 points · Posted at 16:04:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not even necessarily that. If you have a bimodal distribution, the lower groups doesn't even need to be that below average.
AgentElman · 1 points · Posted at 16:41:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
True.
cthulu0 · 2 points · Posted at 16:32:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
90% of people != Everyone (100% of people)
So OP's comment that "Everyone can't be above average" is still strictly true regardless of whether by average you meant median or arithmetic mean.
AgentElman · 1 points · Posted at 16:46:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Correct. It's almost as if I did not say the OPs comment was true and instead posted my own thought.
sluggles · 2 points · Posted at 16:52:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I believe you mean median. Mode is the most frequently occurring value, while median is the halfway marker. If I have 30 students on an exam, the mode could be 100 with only two students actually scoring 100, while the mean and median are likely much lower. The same could be said if the two students scored a 0 instead.
Merprem · 2 points · Posted at 16:57:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think you mean median, not mode
The_Axem_Ranger · 1 points · Posted at 18:06:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ionian!
Gibborim · 1 points · Posted at 18:08:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Fuck dude, never use the mode. Makes using the mean seem reasonable.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:13:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
AgentElman · 1 points · Posted at 19:12:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A newborn baby can't lift its head up. That's a pretty low floor for most activities.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:18:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
AgentElman · 1 points · Posted at 19:39:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No. That means newborns are incredibly bad at gymnastics, driving, spelling, grammar, and basically everything.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:45:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
AgentElman · 1 points · Posted at 20:09:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And my point is that the range isn't that limited.
When you average driving ability of all people, newborns not being able to start the car or drive in any way bring the average down a huge amount.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:32:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
AgentElman · 1 points · Posted at 20:54:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I agree, in practice.
thetasigma1355 · 1 points · Posted at 18:28:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is so the truth when it comes to driving. Most people are adequate drivers. They cut people off on accident occasionally, or merge stupidly sometimes, but are generally sticking with the flow of traffic and don't make those mistakes very often.
But the 10% that are god-awful at driving cause significant amounts of problems. All it takes is one of these bad drivers to cause a 4+ lane interstate full of tens of thousands of commuters to come to a screeching halt.
tharinock · 1 points · Posted at 19:12:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think you mean median, not mode. Median is the value exactly in the middle, mode is just the number that appears the most.
alwayswatchyoursix · 0 points · Posted at 18:04:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think you've got it backwards.
10% of drivers can be above average if the other 90% are really bad.
[deleted] · -2 points · Posted at 16:27:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Assuming by the mean you mode not the average, nor the assumption, of the average of the mean.
AgentElman · 3 points · Posted at 16:30:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't know what you mean.
[deleted] · -2 points · Posted at 16:33:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But knowing i dont mean what you know
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 16:35:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:48:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes
h1ghHorseman · 111 points · Posted at 14:53:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Right.
Some people will be above average drivers. Some people are demonstrably bad drivers. Those bad drivers might be great swimmers, or maybe they're really good cooks or something.
I get what you're saying, and you're right: we can't all be above average in general. What I'm saying is that everyone (barring a few unfortunates) have areas where they're above average, and below average.
Gl33m · 153 points · Posted at 15:51:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The ones that are below average at everything are above average at being below average.
Everyone is above average at something.
BowtieCustomerRep · 119 points · Posted at 16:19:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That... makes me feel better actually, thanks!
Job Interview: What are your strengths and weaknesses?
Strengths: I am above average at being below average.
Weaknesses: I am below average at being above average.
Psudopod · 5 points · Posted at 17:02:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Above average at understanding averages?
pconners · 2 points · Posted at 17:46:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If this doesn't get me hired then I am out of luck
Gibborim · 1 points · Posted at 18:10:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sir, no naive set theory allowed here.
TheRedgrinGrumbholdt · -1 points · Posted at 17:54:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There is no factual reason to believe this. Intelligence and skill, as far as we know, are not zero-sum.
Gl33m · 2 points · Posted at 18:25:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That was the entire point of my statement. The fact that some people are statistically going to be below average at everything inherently means they're above average at being below average.
I have intentionally created a meaningless tautology... That's the joke.
Rozurts · 2 points · Posted at 15:52:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Eh, I don't agree. I think how good you are at most things is driven by intelligence or general athletic ability. Some people are "dumb" and so will be bad at most things that require intelligence. Same with athletic ability - lots of people are bad at all sports. I think the way you're describing it you make it sound like for every thing someone is bad at there's some other thing they are good at instead. I don't think that's the case... the vast majority of people are going to be either above or below average in general or at least in the vast majority of things.
Chaotic-Catastrophe · 1 points · Posted at 16:03:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What I hate are bad drivers who think that "haven't crashed recently" means they are an excellent driver.
dood98998 · 1 points · Posted at 18:17:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The problem is that whenever someone believes that they are above average at [thing], they usually suck at [thing].
AK_Happy · 3 points · Posted at 16:10:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"Everyone sucks at driving except me."
--Everyone
108241 · 2 points · Posted at 16:01:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's because everyone uses a different metric to judge their own driving. So people think "I don't speed, so I'm a better driver than all those people who break the law by going too fast." On the other end of the spectrum, people think "I can drive a lot faster than the speed limit without getting into an accident, so I'm clearly a better driver than those people who are going slower."
dubman42 · 1 points · Posted at 16:31:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think driving skills very heavily skews towards "total fucking idiot who shouldn't drive at all" here in Portland.
Breastologist · 1 points · Posted at 16:48:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
im really good at not hitting other cars but if everyone would drive the way i do we'd al crash at the exact same time.
2wheelsrollin · 1 points · Posted at 16:58:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah that's why you go to a go kart place and really show them who has the better driving skills. Bitches don't even know about the apex.
FeelsGoodMan2 · 1 points · Posted at 18:13:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Depends on what you value though. I suck at maneuvering tight spots and parallel parking but very good at ultimately driving safely, obeying the laws and not crashing. Am I a good driver? Some would say yes, some would say no.
Amidatelion · 1 points · Posted at 18:31:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm perfectly happy being below average at driving. A few accidents when I was younger have made me a better driver now. Average still sucks now though.
sweetnumb · 1 points · Posted at 18:59:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm just imagining years down the road where kids are blown away by the fact that PEOPLE used to drive cars. It will be nice to get places safe and fast as fuck without having to worry about traffic jams n' shit.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 15:54:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Almost everyone can be above average at any task.
In a room of 9 normal people and one idiot, the nine normal people are above average.
Straydapp · 1 points · Posted at 16:03:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Everyone, except one. So, not every one.
scottevil110 · 1 points · Posted at 16:04:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That depends on both how you define average and how dumb that one person is.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 16:45:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This isn't true at all. I know many people who are very open about how bad they are at driving, and they aren't wrong
[deleted] · -2 points · Posted at 17:28:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well I mean, most people are women, and most people are Chinese... so you have a decent shot of being better than average.
SuperSaiyanSkullFuck · 5 points · Posted at 17:42:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I have an uncle who is below average at everything. He's good at nothing.
Wait. He's had like, seven kids. He's above average at having disabled children I guess. With all those genetic conditions he's passed on it's a wonder he's not disabled himself - he seems to be a carrier for everything.
ithcy · 5 points · Posted at 17:47:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
He's also above average in the number of things he is below average in.
SuperSaiyanSkullFuck · 1 points · Posted at 18:21:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is true.
[deleted] · 5 points · Posted at 16:16:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
BananApocalypse · 1 points · Posted at 17:58:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That should be fine, since fixing cars is not part of mechanical engineering.
CritiqueMyGrammar · 2 points · Posted at 17:08:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yup. Well above average at my job and video games, but well below average at everything else in life.
R1ckJamesBitch · 1 points · Posted at 16:27:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I can chew the shit out of gum.
DrCorian · 1 points · Posted at 17:20:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I have an above average number of legs. And arms. And eyes, and ears, and testicles.
Woo, go me!
h1ghHorseman · 1 points · Posted at 17:24:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
this doctor statistics!
I bet you have a below average number of ovaries, though. Sorry about your luck.
DrCorian · 1 points · Posted at 18:27:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Dammit.
Thus_Spoke · 1 points · Posted at 19:10:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Thoughtful answer, I like it.
average-jackass · 1 points · Posted at 19:29:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Hahaha are you sure?
ParamoreFanClub · 1 points · Posted at 19:39:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Op should make change it to intelligence then it would make more sense. But what do I know chances are I'm below average
navin__johnson · 0 points · Posted at 16:23:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think our current president would disagree with you....
[deleted] · 12 points · Posted at 17:04:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
All the children in Lake Wobegon are.
Gbiknel · 1 points · Posted at 18:02:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Grew up there, can confirm.
qaphqaesque · 6 points · Posted at 17:17:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This leads nicely into my answer to the top question:
"Everyone can't be x" means no one can be x
"Not everyone can be x" means there are some people who are not x.
okhhko · 1 points · Posted at 20:19:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Exactly. It's a simple grammar thing that so many people get wrong and shit gets me so heated. Same with "All that glitters is not gold" No. Gold can glitter. That statement isn't true. Just move the "not" and it becomes acceptable. "Not all that glitters is gold." /endsalt
invatigris · 74 points · Posted at 15:16:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Imagine the average man, swimming in his stupidity.
Now come to the realization that half the people are worse than that.
Now be sad.
BamboozleVictim · 176 points · Posted at 15:22:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But this is the problem, you and everyone else (including me) thinks they are above the average, maybe you're in the dumb half
invatigris · 76 points · Posted at 15:25:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"That's the thing about crazy people; they don't know that they're crazy"
Mastrovator · 6 points · Posted at 15:43:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"That's what makes them crazy".
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:35:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
These stupid science bitches can't even make my friend more smarter
damngoodcoffee23 · 6 points · Posted at 16:31:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In a similar vein, when putting up with all kinds of incompetent shit from coworkers it's important to be mindful of things you're doing that might piss them off.
eatatacoandchill · 2 points · Posted at 15:49:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm not crazy you're the one who's crazy
Malfeasant · 1 points · Posted at 18:38:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
All I wanted was a pepsi...
Ten_bucks_best_offer · 1 points · Posted at 19:12:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm sitting in my room, and my mom and my dad came in. They pulled up a chair and they sat down. They go, "Mike, we need to talk to you"
And I go, "Okay, what's the matter?"
They go, "Me and your mom, we've been noticing lately you've been having a lot of problems, and you've been going off for no reason, and we're afraid you're gonna hurt somebody, and we're afraid you're gonna hurt yourself. So we decided that it would be in your best interest if we put you in a place where you could get the help that you need"
And I go, "Wait! What are you talking about? We decided?! My best interest?! How do You know what My best interest is? How can You say what My best interest is? What are you trying to say, I'm crazy?! When I went to Your schools, I went to Your churches, I went to Your institutional learning facilities! So how can you say I'm crazy?!
Theystuckmeinaninstitution,Saiditwastheonlysolution,Togivemetheneededprofessionalhelp,Toprotectfromtheenemymyself
nism0o3 · 1 points · Posted at 16:44:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Did you ever think that if you think you are crazy, your not. If you don't think you are crazy, you are. Would explain most of my ex girlfriends.
hyper_vigilant · 1 points · Posted at 17:22:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Explains most people, for the same reason narcissists can oftentimes never realize what they are & how they're acting.
Once you acknowledge it, the game changes. Then you have to actively choose to continue being what you've realized; rational people do not do this.
Most of my ex's too, but I make terrible choices with women because I like the attractive ones too much.
FlowAffect · 12 points · Posted at 17:00:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In Germany, until a couple years ago, middleschool was divided into 4 different types of school.
Hauptschule(mostly for people who really sucked in elementary school, you can decide between a 9th grade and 10th grade degree.(both are pretty much worthless))
Realschule(for people who are average and have mostly no intention of going to highschool, middleschooldegree after you finished it)
Gymnasium(for people who want to go to university, you get your highschool degree after you finished it)
Gesamtschule(for people who are average, but still might want to go to university. You basically learn the same stuff, that you learn at the Gymnasium, but you have 1 year more to finish it)
If you went to a Gymnasium, you are damn surely more intelligent than the average German person.
Edit: Hauptschule seems to have a 9th and 10th grade degree. Thanks to /u/Kandierter_Holzapfel
Paul-ish · 3 points · Posted at 18:14:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How do you determine someone isn't smart in elementary school and decide the course of their life based on that?
FlowAffect · 4 points · Posted at 18:32:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well if you were doing better at Hauptschule you still had the chance to go to a Real- or Gesamtschule. But if you constantly fucked up for the first 6 years of school the chances are pretty low you can/ want to make a turn.
GlyphGryph · 3 points · Posted at 18:41:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You aren't exactly locked in forever. People transition between the schools, and even later in life you can make changes. It only recognizes where you are, really, not so much where you're guaranteed to end up... but where you are probably influences your eventual odds.
Kandierter_Holzapfel · 2 points · Posted at 18:56:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Then you probably are able to get the advanced degree and switch to Gymnasium
BananApocalypse · 2 points · Posted at 18:01:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Did each of those 4 schools have an equal amount of students?
FlowAffect · 3 points · Posted at 18:30:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Out of my elementary school class (32 people) 8 went to a Gymnasium (4 later had to change schools to Gesamschulen) 9 went to Hauptschulen and the rest went to either Gesamtschulen or Realschulen.(50/50)
This is how it should be in general https://www.statistik-bw.de/Presse/Pressemitteilungen/2016020
thestickystickman · 2 points · Posted at 18:42:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, I feel like if you go or have gone to university, you can be sure you're not below average.
Kandierter_Holzapfel · 1 points · Posted at 18:56:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Hauptschule is after 9 or 10 years
FlowAffect · 1 points · Posted at 19:04:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You're right.
oneonetwooneonetwo · 2 points · Posted at 19:03:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, no one quoting "Imagine the average man" ever means "take me, for example"
invatigris · 4 points · Posted at 15:26:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Honestly that's absolutely true, and I may as well be in that half.
Which would still make me sad.
DeathByBamboo · 1 points · Posted at 18:25:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you can read and operate a computer, you're probably of above average intelligence. If you can do both of those things and spell most of the words you write without autocomplete you're probably in the 75th percentile or above. Almost everyone using Reddit is of above average intelligence.
MightyButtonMasher · 1 points · Posted at 19:56:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Are you talking global average or the average in your environment/country/the West? I'm guessing global, since the bar's so low.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:39:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Lel, my IQ is probably like 90. I'm a retarded hillbilly and I graciously accept that.
MightyButtonMasher · 2 points · Posted at 19:59:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
90 is only a bit below average. I'm pretty sure something like 1 in 3 has that IQ or less.
dblmjr_loser · 1 points · Posted at 19:44:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
By just having enough food to eat as a developing child and young adult you're probably around the world mean in whatever.
lord_gaben3000 · 1 points · Posted at 16:56:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I've fully accepted that I am in the below average half and that most people are smarter than me.
Lietenantdan · 1 points · Posted at 16:59:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm a complete idiot, but at least I know it. Though that may be a bad thing, ignorance being bliss and all.
yupsate · 29 points · Posted at 15:32:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's not what average means.
paterfamilias78 · 32 points · Posted at 16:16:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But it is effectively the same thing for a normal distribution. I think that intelligences are a normal distribution.
DukeMo · 4 points · Posted at 17:42:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Normal distribution also implies not too much difference between just under the average and just over the average.
The 'average' intelligence probably contains a great many people without too much variation.
paterfamilias78 · 5 points · Posted at 19:28:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Standard Deviation is 15 I thought, so 67% of people are between IQ 85 and 115.
Matyas_ · 1 points · Posted at 18:25:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What makes you think intelligence has a normal distribution?
paterfamilias78 · 2 points · Posted at 19:27:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I thought most IQ measurements were normal. Here are the various scales, which all appear to be normal distribution: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ_classification
null_work · 2 points · Posted at 20:42:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Assuming we mean IQ, it's because we construct it that way.
Ligless · 5 points · Posted at 16:07:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In theory. But in practice, it's probably fairly close. It's not like there will be many statistical outliers that are so smart or so dumb that they effect the average much one way or another.
Throwing out a random number, 49.8 % of people could be "above average" if there are enough geniuses to offset the average from the mean. But I'd be surprised if it's much more drastic one way or another than that.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 16:14:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
CautionWetFloor · 5 points · Posted at 16:42:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
median != average
glass20 · 10 points · Posted at 16:46:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"a number expressing the central or typical value in a set of data, in particular the mode, median, or (most commonly) the mean, which is calculated by dividing the sum of the values in the set by their number."
Mean is what average is commonly referred to as, but you could go by the median and still technically be right. When someone says something like the "average person" they're probably actually talking about the mode ("average Joe" - it's gonna be the person that is most common) so it can really mean any of them
windwalker13 · 6 points · Posted at 17:52:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
no, median != mean
average can be median, depending on how you define it
SecurityBro · 1 points · Posted at 16:58:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Every single time I see someone try to argue this, there's just so much confidence in it; I just remember this being middle school math.
null_work · 1 points · Posted at 20:43:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm fairly certain "math" is an absolute answer to the OP question.
Player_17 · 1 points · Posted at 17:16:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There isn't only one type of average, there are a few. Median is one type of average.
A_Soporific · 3 points · Posted at 17:25:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But, I don't think that the average person is stupid. I think that the average person is pretty smart, but at the same time that person is much more interested in things I don't care about and I am interested in things that the average person doesn't care about. So, we have different skills sets.
Some people are dumb, but I don't think it's all that many.
Xaxxon · 3 points · Posted at 18:00:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
average doesn't directly correlate to a number of samples being on either side.
Jucoy · 4 points · Posted at 17:49:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Please don't try to quote George Carlin again. Please.
BattleHall · 7 points · Posted at 15:58:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"What is something that 90% of people don't seem to understand?"
The difference between average and median.
Player_17 · 5 points · Posted at 17:17:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Median is an average. It's the same as saying a poodle is a dog.
BattleHall · 1 points · Posted at 19:49:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The mean is the same thing as an average; the median just means the middle in terms of counted elements in a number set. It's not a subset, like poodle:dog. It's more like "dog is brown"; not all dogs are brown, and not all brown objects are dogs. For example, what are the mean (average) and median of the following data set:
2, 4, 5, 6, 258
Player_17 · 2 points · Posted at 20:05:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Mean is a type of average. "Average" is just a dumbed down word for central tendency.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_tendency
paterfamilias78 · 4 points · Posted at 16:17:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
For a normal distribution, average = median.
GA_Thrawn · 4 points · Posted at 17:16:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And what in life makes you think intelligence has a normal distribution?
probably2high · 5 points · Posted at 18:26:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
http://www.ihvo.de/202/gaussian-distribution-of-intelligence/
paterfamilias78 · 4 points · Posted at 19:27:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I thought most IQ measurements were normal. Here are the various scales, which all appear to be normal distribution: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ_classification
saxygoalie · 1 points · Posted at 15:49:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But...
LenrySpoister · 1 points · Posted at 16:30:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well, assuming a normal curve, there are a whole lot of people who are actually exactly average (since the mode = mean).
So, less than half are actually above OR below average.
null_work · 1 points · Posted at 20:45:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Assuming a continuous distribution, you can only talk about ranges, not singular values, since we require the integral of our distribution function.
Belgand · 1 points · Posted at 18:44:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Except that's only average if you're describing the median. Typically we tend to consider the mode when we think of the "average person".
Emcee_squared · 1 points · Posted at 17:58:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't know if you believed that you produced an original thought here, but I think quite a few people on this site are already plenty familiar with this (attempt at a) George Carlin quote.
Disclosure: Something about the way you said it kind of felt like you were trying to pretend you created it, and that irritated me, because it was neither original nor well-executed.
Ibakemyowncookies · 0 points · Posted at 18:37:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Average does not necessarily divide the population 50% above and 50% below average. Your conclusion does make me feel like you might be below average.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 15:44:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
While true, your statement mischaracterizes the mindset of people who believe they are above average (even if unwarranted).
They don't feel EVERYONE is above average. They feel that THEY, personally, are above average.
scottevil110 · 4 points · Posted at 16:05:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes, I know. My point is that at least SOME of those people are wrong.
notkoreytaube · 1 points · Posted at 16:23:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Statistically 49% of people are dumber than average.
Letscurlbrah · 7 points · Posted at 17:43:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Dumber than median unless intelligence has a normal distribution.
majesticjell0 · 3 points · Posted at 17:29:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"You're a mostly A, few B's student, we know this, so why don't you get the grades?!" -frustrated parents.
"Maybe because I'm just average at some subjects, and not above average on all subjects." - student
"Adgurdbbkliufcet c dr g b mibfrd???!!!!" - parents
TitaniumDragon · 3 points · Posted at 17:34:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Half of the population is at or below the median.
RiverOps1 · 4 points · Posted at 16:30:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
“Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.” - George Carlin
TheElusiveBushWookie · 2 points · Posted at 16:21:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I am above average at being below average!
daaaamngirl88 · 2 points · Posted at 16:32:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You can't always be the best, but you can be your best - someone on reddit
Eeniebob · 2 points · Posted at 16:43:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Someone should tell the UK government. Schools are inspected and are either good or require improvement. What happened to satisfactory? Is satisfactory not surely what most schools should be?
SpinPlates · 2 points · Posted at 16:57:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I heard an obese women give herself a 7/10 rating. It's really sad honestly.
amishcatholic · 2 points · Posted at 17:25:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Except in Lake Wobegon
editormatt · 2 points · Posted at 17:26:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If your below average at least no one can accuse you of being unoriginal.
donteventouuchit · 2 points · Posted at 17:34:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"Not everyone can be" is the phrase you're looking for. Syntax is important.
databasedgod · 2 points · Posted at 17:34:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
“50% of the world’s population is below average”
-my grandpa
hold_my_drink · 2 points · Posted at 17:36:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Of course, but my kids definitely are.
yupsate · 3 points · Posted at 15:31:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, but like 99.9% of a population can technically be above the average. You could literally have one person bringing down the average and everyone else is above it.
Most people have a higher than average number of legs.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 17:42:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Christ took -infinity, everyone else is finite, average is still -infinity making everyone else above average, checkmate atheists.
pacoca69 · 1 points · Posted at 19:47:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Spiders Georg comes to mind.
taraisthegreatest · 1 points · Posted at 15:39:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When everyone is special, no one is.
topchamp2000 · 1 points · Posted at 16:28:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm averagely above average.
nism0o3 · 1 points · Posted at 16:42:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is a big problem.
Sedu · 1 points · Posted at 16:47:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Although it is possible for everyone except for a single person to be above average.
TheActualAWdeV · 1 points · Posted at 16:54:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not everyone can be.
kkehoe5 · 1 points · Posted at 16:54:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's why I let my below average kid play baseball, it makes your kid look that much better.
dantev9 · 1 points · Posted at 16:57:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's what a try to explain to my csgo teammates 😢
redditizio · 1 points · Posted at 17:07:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
By definition!
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:18:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Maybe there's 1 person who's just EXTREMELY dumb, then everyone else could be above average.
darwin2500 · 1 points · Posted at 17:23:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The majority of people can be above the mean, though. If the distribution is not perfectly symetrical.
Albedo006 · 1 points · Posted at 17:23:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Although strictly true, it is possible to have a very large majority of people above the simple average.
Just as a sample, imagine 100 people take a test. Let's say one person gets a 75% and the remaining 99 people get a 100%.
In this scenario, 99 people are above the average.
cariacou · 1 points · Posted at 17:24:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Depends how you round it
taleofbenji · 1 points · Posted at 17:24:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I swear that 99% of my friends' toddlers are 99th percentile in height.
I think this is just something doctors say because gullible parents get so excited.
That or I hang out with exclusively giants.
Desperado2583 · 1 points · Posted at 17:25:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Of course not. Nearly everyone else is below average. But I am above average. /s.
feelsbatman77 · 1 points · Posted at 17:30:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"Thats why god made so many average people, he loves them the most"
trailless · 1 points · Posted at 17:31:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
BUT with a little work, you can be above average in one thing. Keep working at different things and now you're above average.
ShibuRigged · 1 points · Posted at 17:31:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
First thing that came to my mind. People don't seem to understand bell-curves and normal distribution, at all.
ProxyArcane · 1 points · Posted at 17:34:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Then why is Steve Trevor above average?
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:39:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But everyone can be above the previous average creating a new and higher average
candybomberz · 1 points · Posted at 17:41:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Everyone can be above average in something when they invest enough time into it.
Superfan959 · 1 points · Posted at 17:42:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is how I feel about "good drivers."
Everyone claims they're a good driver. Anyone who drives knows this is statistically impossible.
I myself am probably below average.
Whatever4M · 1 points · Posted at 17:43:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I love how almost all the child comments on this show a deep misunderstanding of basic math.
Tumdace · 1 points · Posted at 17:43:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Technically everyone except for one person can be above average.
scottevil110 · 1 points · Posted at 19:06:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That wouldn't be everyone, would it?
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:44:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A quote from that great font of Hollywood wisdom called Caddyshack comes to mind here:
"The world needs ditch diggers too."
bluespirit442 · 1 points · Posted at 17:46:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And it's important to both accept it and know where you fall below.
Where you fall below are your weaknesses, and the places you can ask for help from someone who rises above, or work hard to get better.
And accepting weaknesses in the right way can be a strength!
dragonspeak · 1 points · Posted at 17:47:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"and with everyone's super, no one will be."
Teban100 · 1 points · Posted at 19:38:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Perfect example.
The Incredibles was a great movie.
wammy-bammy · 1 points · Posted at 17:49:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
“Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.”
sparks277 · 1 points · Posted at 17:50:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"Think about how dumb the average person is. Now think about the fact that half of them are dumber than that!" -George Carlin
DapperDanManCan · 1 points · Posted at 17:50:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Everyone can try their best however. Few do.
mazer_rack_em · 1 points · Posted at 17:51:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
jackflash223 · 1 points · Posted at 17:53:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is true to an extent. Everyone can't be above average in everything, but a below average person in one category can be above average in another.
BraveSquirrel · 1 points · Posted at 17:54:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Pretty much everyone can be above average at a particular thing though if they pursue it and train/practice at that thing.
Snowmittromney · 1 points · Posted at 17:56:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
While not everyone can be above average, the overall average can certainly be raised, which is what we should aim for as a society
Laerai · 1 points · Posted at 17:58:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
True, but everyone that has access to the internet can be above average (3.2 billion). And frankly, aren't those the only people that actually care?
ePants · 1 points · Posted at 17:59:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Most people aren't even aware of what they're referring to when they say "average."
If 9 people scored a 90 on a test, but one person scored 100, then the class average is 91, so those 9 people are all "below average."
Yet if the outlier scored lower, like a 70, then the class average would be 89, and the 9 would be "above average."
Any time "average" is used you have to understand what the high and low outliers do to the average. This is why the "average life expectancy" was in the 30s in the past (because the infant mortality rate brought the average down even though anyone who made it into adolescence had a good chance of living past 70) and also why the average household income in America is inflated (unless it specifically doesn't include the top 2%).
Scrappy_Larue · 1487 points · Posted at 14:22:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Because it's in a meme does not make it true.
thegreuben · 852 points · Posted at 15:54:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You take that back
[deleted] · 7 points · Posted at 16:49:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No! You take it back!
FrederikTwn · 1 points · Posted at 20:02:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Shut up, normie
DrOrgasm · 1 points · Posted at 21:24:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Mr-Zero-Fucks · 218 points · Posted at 16:25:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Nope, sorry, you're wrong, memes are digital facts.
beerbeardsbears · 7 points · Posted at 17:47:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What if a meme said that memes aren't true
Mr-Zero-Fucks · 13 points · Posted at 17:50:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Also right, it's canceling its own false statement with the truth, a truthful paradox.
beerbeardsbears · 8 points · Posted at 17:51:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Wow. Memes truly are magical, aren't they?
Mr-Zero-Fucks · 5 points · Posted at 17:58:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes, like a golden unicorn with a horn made of candy.
Horricule · 1 points · Posted at 17:28:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Someone's been playing metal gear rising
iulioh · 0 points · Posted at 18:40:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
FTFY
undercooked_lasagna · 13 points · Posted at 16:49:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Only a Sith deals in absolutes
Heroicis · 12 points · Posted at 18:09:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
/u/waterguy12 would like this one
pazimpanet · 11 points · Posted at 17:10:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Put it on a duck and we'll talk.
[deleted] · 52 points · Posted at 16:47:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
o8livion · 5 points · Posted at 17:49:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
don't think about it don't think about it don't think about it.
nism0o3 · 5 points · Posted at 17:13:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I blocked posts from 5-6 people on FB because of this. They honestly believe anything that's written on an image/picture. Its insane.
Scrappy_Larue · 3 points · Posted at 17:33:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Same here. I stopped correcting them a long time ago. I've had my comment deleted for having the nerve to fact check it.
Amatura · 6 points · Posted at 18:07:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But I saw quote by [scientist/celebrity/activist/pundit/comedian] and it was quippy enough to make my chuckle. It also contrasted [thing-I-don't-like] against [thing-I-do-like].
So I don't understand how this could be false. It's a slam dunk truth. Don't you believe in [science/math/reason/god/facts/justice]?
Scrappy_Larue · 3 points · Posted at 18:20:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
One person who really hated this was the late George Carlin. A lot of things are attributed to him online that he didn't say. It didn't matter if it was funny or clever, it drove him nuts that he really couldn't stop it.
Amatura · 3 points · Posted at 18:30:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Wow. That's ...almost.. libel then.
George Carlin memes really are the worst, and I was starting to hate him for the bullshit that was attributed to him...
watermasta · 11 points · Posted at 17:52:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
See your ass in /r/karmacourt
hyelander · 5 points · Posted at 17:42:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But it becomes true once its liked and shared the appropriate amount of times.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 18:00:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Something that sounds right is not necessarily correct.
i.e. Don't underestimate the power of hyperbole.
usa_foot_print · 3 points · Posted at 18:40:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If someone started delivering the Sunday Memepaper would it be more or less accurate than the news?
bubblesculptor · 3 points · Posted at 19:01:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Meme's and YouTube videos. The people who are being fooled into believing 'Flat Earth' conspiracies. Most of their 'evidence' is just meme images or youtube videos drawn over with arrows pointing at clues. These people are taking these silly memes as absolute truth above ALL of scientifically verified published information.
SCPendolino · 4 points · Posted at 15:40:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Cool story bro.
getYOURBODYrdy · 2 points · Posted at 19:30:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But...Reddit lead me to the meme though!
scw55 · 2 points · Posted at 19:43:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Because I was being dryly sarcastic, doesn't mean I'm trolling you.
MediocreMatthew · 2 points · Posted at 19:51:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
/u/waterguy12 would disagree
Not_A_Meme · 2 points · Posted at 19:59:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
AND ITS NOT ALWAYS A MEME!!!
BevansDesign · 2 points · Posted at 20:03:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Same goes for Netflix documentaries.
omahony22 · 2 points · Posted at 20:46:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So u/FireGuy12 isn't going to burn me_irl to the ground?
CatNigga · 3 points · Posted at 17:02:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Because someone says it's a meme doesn't mean it is. (Forced)
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 17:43:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Traps are fucking gay
bigcostanzaboi · 1 points · Posted at 18:20:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Lies
funnymonk15 · 2 points · Posted at 17:49:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm offended on so many levels
OhGarraty · 2 points · Posted at 17:34:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's treason, then.
Magnumpimplimp · 1 points · Posted at 16:22:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not true if the meme is located on the line.
PinkyBlinky · 1 points · Posted at 18:18:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Source?
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:29:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You should put that in a meme
OldSchoolNewRules · 1 points · Posted at 18:32:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The truth, like Millhouse, is not a meme.
DiamondSentinel · 1 points · Posted at 18:48:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But memes are the DNA of the soul! How could they lie to us?
srcarruth · 1 points · Posted at 18:58:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
can we see this in meme form?
starkiller_bass · 1 points · Posted at 19:03:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Can you put this in meme format so I can understand it more clearly?
ijee88 · 1 points · Posted at 19:12:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
OccupyDemocrats
Big_Green_Piccolo · 1 points · Posted at 19:30:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Im gonna need a banana for scale
charlesblumpkin · 1 points · Posted at 19:35:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What if it's dank?
ZeusBin · 1 points · Posted at 19:42:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Don't talk to me or my son ever again.
invisiblephrend · 1 points · Posted at 19:46:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"people lie on the internet." - abraham lincoln, 1969
FrankenBerryGxM · 4240 points · Posted at 15:27:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Tax brackets.
You will never be worse off for accepting a raise. Let's say 100k is the next bracket and you get a raise to 105k. You only get taxed at the higher rate for 5k.
Edit: Some exceptions at around 22k and 90k
Bathroom_Pninja · 1645 points · Posted at 17:04:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not with taxes, agreed, but possibly with benefits. It's possible that someone starts making enough that, say, their Medicaid coverage could drop off, and the financial responsibility of that puts them into a place that's worse off than they were before.
[deleted] · 692 points · Posted at 17:23:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Can confirm, when I was homeless I was on food stamps, wasn't much but it kept me from starving, I found a place and all it came with was a mattress, it was further away from work so I had to pay for public transit, I have no way to store perishable food items, so at my place I'm actually eating at about 1500 calories of Ramen and popcorn (I work at a movie theater) a day because I make 100 dollars more than it would be to get the 200 dollars in food stamps
bigredmnky · 185 points · Posted at 17:57:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you have a stove or something, you should look at buying dry beans/lentils and rice. Together they make a complete protein and it's easier to add variety to them than it is with popcorn
[deleted] · 164 points · Posted at 18:01:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I use a rice cooker, ramen rice and beans are life, I live across the street from a grocery store and get some fruit every morning when I wake up. I just had a birthday and my family (not my parents, but my uncles/aunts and grandparents) sent me gift cards to Whole Foods and The Container Store so I can get some "furniture" and can hopefully spice up my diet every now and then.
notafuckingcakewalk · 3 points · Posted at 19:37:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Do you know if there is a "produce" store that is easily accessible by public transportation? They generally sell fruits & vegetables for a very small fraction of what you'd pay at a grocery store.
phayke2 · 5 points · Posted at 20:09:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When I'm down to just a couple dollars one of my goto's is Velveta shells (which don't need any extra ingredients) and sweet potatoes. If you get the store brand it comes out to like 1.50 per meal. Then maybe throw in some black pepper and sriracha in the macaroni and some butter and cinnamon on the sweet potatoes and BAM you have a dirt cheap meal worth looking forward to.
Another way to eat good and cheap is to make breakfast burritos. Spend like 15 bucks, get some filler ingredients. Black beans, mexican rice, tater tots, eggs, mushrooms, pepper, onions, maybe chicken,bacon,breakfast sausage whatever's on sale.
Then cook everything you had and roll like 10 burritos with it, wrap in foil, put in a freezer bag and that's another awesome full meal for like 1-2$ each that you can literally just throw in the oven and grab on your way out the house. Taco bell has breakfast salsa packets if you wanna save a few bucks on that.. You can even do a few types like bacon/egg, sausage/potato, shredded chicken burritos. The secret is all the cheap filler ingredients and the hour or so spent cooking it all in bulk.
rcbs · 3 points · Posted at 20:36:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
https://youtu.be/qiSg6lwIItU
1 dollar meals that dont suck. Love brothers Green...
HugItChuckItFootball · 10 points · Posted at 18:09:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I know it sounds gross, but you can find some great stuff dumpster diving. I used to do it a couple times a week even when I was making a decent living. If you have an Aldi near you, hit it up. I'd find food and home goods there all the time. Also check out r/personalfinance.
[deleted] · 45 points · Posted at 18:14:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Dumpster diving is how you get bedbugs, I had to deal with that once and hopefully never again. There isn't an Aldi near, it's about 2 hours by train. And that a very helpful subreddit, thank goodness I'm already decent with money or else I'd probably be in a worse spot
TheShadowKick · 11 points · Posted at 19:06:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You can also check out /r/eatcheapandhealthy for more advice on low-cost food.
madefordumbanswers · 8 points · Posted at 18:45:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Keep up the good work, man. And happy belated birthday!
barstowtovegas · 5 points · Posted at 19:22:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Congrats on having a place! Keep up the good fight :) check for local food pantrie. They helped me out a lot when I was getting started.
BlackOpz · 2 points · Posted at 19:54:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I used a rice cooker at first too but ditched it for the Presto fryer since I can pop popcorn in the Presto. Also its smaller and gets hotter. (I think 450 degrees). Its a mini miracle.
mozfustril · 1 points · Posted at 20:23:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Who gives a person who was recently homeless gift cards to Whole Foods??? Unless they are for massive amounts why wouldn't they do a normal local supermarket chain? Whatever amount they gave you would go so much farther. That one is a true head scratcher.
[deleted] · 5 points · Posted at 20:27:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The family that sent it is in Georgia, the only chain grocery stores near me are Safeway, Trader Joe's, and Whole Foods. I use the whole foods gift cards to buy "Dirty eggs" basically unwashed eggs that still have a protective membrane, makes them last a few extra days
mozfustril · 2 points · Posted at 21:27:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
At least you're being smart about it. I knew a girl who was legit broke and only shopped at Whole Foods. She wanted all organic and thought it was healthier. First, eating non-organic foods short-term will have no negative effects on your health. There isn't even much data pointing to long-term organic benefits yet. Literally wasting money on an idea.
adidapizza · 1 points · Posted at 21:33:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Check for furniture on Craigslist if you haven't already. Some people are incredibly nice and will deliver very inexpensive pieces of furniture--especially if you explain your situation a little. Even a fridge possibly...
RichWPX · -14 points · Posted at 18:51:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But how are you on the internet then? I mean doesn't food > internet?
Ok guys I was just asking, as it has been shown it's pretty damn important. :-)
[deleted] · 41 points · Posted at 18:54:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My friend has me on his phone plan, I pay him 25$ a month since that how much it was to add me. Also phones are pretty important, if I didn't have a phone how could I get in contact with my case managers, or have my work call me when they need me to cover someone. Also there are free phones and phone plans to people in California who are on any level of welfare
AMarriedSpartan · 20 points · Posted at 19:08:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, people forget that phones are necessary now. Can't get or hold a job without one, can't ask for help without one, and just lots of other stuff.
The_Canadian_Devil · 10 points · Posted at 19:14:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Also in many cases phones are cheaper and (oddly/unfortunately) more necessary than cheap housing.
DorkJedi · 8 points · Posted at 18:54:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not really. A small internet bill covers TV, telephone, communications, job hunting, and other things. It is an efficient use of money. And you can split it with a neighbor. A truly unlimited DSL line is pretty cheap when split between two people, and will handle 2 streaming feeds and active skype calls easily.
RockinSocksII · 3 points · Posted at 18:52:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Public library?
relationship_tom · 2 points · Posted at 19:31:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Often the time it takes to get on transit to the closest library isn't worth it, for anyone that is living on the brink of poverty. They are working lots, going to school, etc... It's much more economical for them to apply to many jobs when they get home and respond quickly to interviews.
notafuckingcakewalk · 1 points · Posted at 19:38:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
These days I'd say Internet is about as much of a required staple as anything else. Plus you can basically just hang out online instead of going out and spending money. Many urban areas offer "subsidized" internet plans with 25Mpbs or slower.
Martel732 · 1 points · Posted at 19:45:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It is really hard to get a job these days without Internet access. And a phone is pretty crucial as well. A cheap smartphone and internet package is definitely a reasonable purchase ven if poor. It is a necessity and investment more than a luxury.
PeekAtChu1 · 1 points · Posted at 19:43:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
As long as you don't have IBS lol
bigredmnky · 1 points · Posted at 19:53:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't know much about IBS, but I feel like popcorn can't possibly be much better
jminuse · 1 points · Posted at 20:28:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Lentils are a complete protein by themselves for all practical purposes. They're low in one amino acid (methionine), but they still contain more methionine per pound than rice does. So if you want more protein you're better off just eating more lentils. But adding some rice does make them taste better.
SkincareQuestions10 · 1 points · Posted at 18:17:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
https://www.forksoverknives.com/the-myth-of-complementary-protein/
TotalWalrus · 4 points · Posted at 18:22:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Was there a source in that article? I tried to read it and got sick of the fluffed word count.
SkincareQuestions10 · 3 points · Posted at 18:46:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Good question - There was no source, but I googled it and found this chart (2nd one down). Apparently eating 7 large potatoes in one day (2,652g, I did all the math), gives an amino acid profile that well exceeds the daily amino acid requirements.
According to the article, "The only truly 'incomplete' protein in the food supply is an animal protein: gelatin, which is missing the amino acid tryptophan.[10]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complete_protein
TotalWalrus · 1 points · Posted at 19:23:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Cool. I'd never heard about having to mix veggies to get protein, just that you had to eat certain ones to get it at all. Also, seriously vegans (annoying ones) , this is evidence that eating meat is default in a human diet. 7 potatoes a day is alot.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:34:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
TotalWalrus · 1 points · Posted at 01:31:59 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you have to go several million years into the past to get to a mostly veggie diet for your argument... you might be on the wrong track. Humans only "became" a thing 2.5 ish million years ago. And modern humans? 0.2 million years. So if we've been eating lots of meat for (your figures) "less than 1mya" I'd say that means modern humans have a meat in their diets by default.
And you know what? Don't eat meat if you don't want to. I'm just saying that some very vocal, very annoying vegans ruin it for everyone else by claiming dumb things.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 14:29:34 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
TotalWalrus · 1 points · Posted at 16:35:30 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Meat industry being inhumane =/= meat is bad. And i could not properly survive off the local fauna in my area without meat.
red_flash1029 · 11 points · Posted at 18:24:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This means you aren't anymore. I'm oddly proud of you.
[deleted] · 8 points · Posted at 18:27:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
<3
strangefish108 · 9 points · Posted at 17:58:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
All of those all or nothing curious are horrible. They discourage people who are struggling, increase contempt for government and encourage fraud.
AntiSqueaker · 28 points · Posted at 18:16:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The welfare system in America is just absolutely horrible. With all the flat cutoffs, it actively incentivizes and rewards staying below the threshold.
Make under 15,000 a year as a single adult? Enjoy your SNAP benefits! Make 15,010? Sorry, SOL.
Not to mention many welfare programs have a maximum amount of money you are allowed to have in your bank account. Saving up for a car, to move so you can find a better job, or trying to go back to school? Too bad, lose all your benefits.
[deleted] · 14 points · Posted at 18:32:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
SherpaLali · 3 points · Posted at 19:23:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The same happened to me, the cutoff was $2000 of assets. I had a van worth about $3000 that I used to transport equipment for my seasonal job. I could sell the van to be eligible for benefits, but then I wouldn't be able to work when my job started up again.
gyroda · 2 points · Posted at 19:09:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's also exceedingly easy to avoid if you've got family you can trust. Just get them to open a savings account and pay into it.
avo_cado · 1 points · Posted at 19:12:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Could you just incorporate and have a company that you are the sole shareholder of that owns all your assets?
[deleted] · 4 points · Posted at 19:16:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
avo_cado · 1 points · Posted at 12:21:35 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
It costs $180
back-stitch · -2 points · Posted at 18:51:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's not how SNAP works at all.
Lesp00n · 4 points · Posted at 19:18:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's a sliding scale of benefits, but there absolutely is a cutoff. And its far too low.
back-stitch · 1 points · Posted at 23:12:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There is a cut off, yes. It is too low, yes. But your original comment made it seem like you thought it was a yes or no thing, when it is a sliding scale. That's what I was objecting to.
Lesp00n · 1 points · Posted at 00:17:27 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I didn't make the comment you objected to.
Naughtypandaxi · 1 points · Posted at 20:04:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not to be that guy, but do you think the government really wants you in a better place? From their prospective, what is better? To have you relient on them to keep them in power or to be self sufficient?
back-stitch · 2 points · Posted at 23:14:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not having people on benefits doesn't magically make them self sufficient.. it makes them criminals.
strangefish108 · 1 points · Posted at 01:25:52 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Having some people dependant on the government really doesn't help the government at all. Aside from increasing military recruitment rates.
Suhn-Sol-Jashin · 20 points · Posted at 17:42:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
hugs
madogvelkor · 8 points · Posted at 18:14:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's because of things like this that I support a universal basic income.
Yes_I_Fuck_Foxes · 6 points · Posted at 18:03:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I've done this. Make sure you get a multivitamin, drink enough water and the sodium from the ramen becomes a non-issue.
Also rice, beans, lentils, and curry for flavor.
[deleted] · 5 points · Posted at 18:07:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Multivitamins are bae, I drink about 1.5-2 gallons a day. I buy a ton of tapitio, I've gone through 3 bottles over the last 2 weeks, love it and it's only a dollar
Yes_I_Fuck_Foxes · 11 points · Posted at 18:16:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I knew someone in college, they did the exclusive ramen thing for a few months, and wasn't taking a multivitamin. . . Not because he couldn't afford better, he was just a cheapass.
Anyway, long story short. This land-locked midwesterner wound up in the hospital with--likely--one of the only cases of Scurvy that hospital has seen.
[deleted] · 7 points · Posted at 18:17:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oh my God that's hilarious. Sad, but hilarious. When I was 13 I was hospitalized for being malnourished, apparently my parents had similar thinking, so now I swear by multivitamins
baguette-baker2430 · 8 points · Posted at 18:30:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Same here. College student and mom. I made $7.25/hr bartending plus tips which I didn't have to claim since they were past minimum wage. I lost that job because of some bull shit and I am now making $8.00/hr. My food stamps went from $440/month to $391/month because of my "pay increase" which was really a decrease because I wasn't bringing home $300/week in tips. The system is designed to keep you poor.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:33:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah I went from 200$ a month to 28$ a month, it's a very effective system to help those in need /s
baguette-baker2430 · 2 points · Posted at 19:14:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Right? Where do we win when we're trying to better ourselves like they keep telling me to do?
odsquad64 · 1 points · Posted at 20:21:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think either there may be something wrong with the way you phrased this, or there may be something wrong in your understanding of what you're supposed to claim.
back-stitch · 6 points · Posted at 18:00:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Food stamps are on a tiered system as well, though. If you are only $100 over getting the max amount of benefits ($200ish) you should still qualify for something. Especially now that you pay rent and have to pay for public transit, since they take into consideration your expenses. I'd call your local office that handles SNAP and talk with a case worker. I wouldn't be surprised if your benefits were wrongly cut off from the info that you've provided here.
[deleted] · 14 points · Posted at 18:01:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I still have them, I get a whole 20$ per month :)
back-stitch · 3 points · Posted at 18:48:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Did you inform them of your increased income without letting them know about your increased expenses? Just trying to help remotely-- I work with helping folks get signed up for benefits, but every state and every case is different.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 18:51:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, I had to go to biweekly meetings with a case manager so I told him I got a job and we put in how much I'd be making, he put it into the calculator and I got 28 dollars. So I use that to eat out every now and then, I can buy subway sandwiches once a week!
back-stitch · 2 points · Posted at 18:53:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So, just to be explicitly clear, he didn't add in your living expenses into the calculation?
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:58:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I had the job before I had my apartment and I've gone back to try and fix it but he, and other case workers ahve told me that "My income exceeds my monthly expenses by too large a margin" and they only count what I actually have a bill for, so things like phone, rent, bus pass, student loans, and gym count, but not groceries, laundry, even utilities don't count. It kinda sucks but I'm pretty sure I can get by
back-stitch · 1 points · Posted at 19:03:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Huh. You must live in a very red state. I'm in the Midwest and utilities definitely count here.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:04:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm in San Francisco...
getmoneygetpaid · 1 points · Posted at 21:45:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Honest question: why do you live in one of the most expensive places on the planet if you can barely afford basic human needs?
I work in tech myself, and have a reasonable job. SF is the dream, but I wouldn't dream of moving there because I know it's unreasonable to expect to be able to live in a place where prices are inflated by massive demand.
No hate - I'm genuinely interested. I hear the same a lot from my mates in London with no reasonable explanation. Always struggling, but never willing to leave the city to live somewhere that they could afford a much better quality of life.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 21:51:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well my parents kicked me out after coming out of the closet, I enlisted but got a medical separation, wanted to get away from my parents (Not stay in reasonable distance to them) so I came out here with a few thousand dollars and have been making it work for myself ever since. I'm a pretty smart guy so I never slept on the streets, made friends quickly and after a bit of couch surfing I got tired of it, went to a homeless shelter and have been trying to get back on my feet.
I guess barely being able to live isn't a result of moving out here but just a factor. And I'm only 21, I came out here on my 20th Birthday a year ago so I like to think this is the struggle of my 20s. I could have easily gone somewhere cheaper but there's a lot less opportunity and if I can't make connections when I'm younger I think it'll set me up no necessarily for failure, but not as bright of a future when I'm older
getmoneygetpaid · 1 points · Posted at 22:28:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Good luck to you, friend. I admire that you are aiming high and you still have time on your side.
One word of advice: depending on your area of work, I'm not sure you're going to make great career connections as a couch surfer with no fixed address, so make sure to call it a day at the right time.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 22:29:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Now I have a fixed address, just when I first got here I was a couch surfer, I've got my own lease and rent and everything
back-stitch · 1 points · Posted at 23:10:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Then I'm stumped. I have no idea how you can afford to live there, let alone make too much to qualify for SNAP by working at a theater!!
Sorry I can't be of help. 😕
GingerbreadHouses · 2 points · Posted at 18:22:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Is it walkable/cycleable? I have a kick scooter and it saves me so much time and money, plus you can fold it down
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:27:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If it were flat, yes. My building doesn't allow bicycles (weird, right?) I mean it's just over a mile to get to work, I live in San Francisco, but it's up 2 hills, so that's 2 hills there and 2 hills back, and I'm on my feet for 8 hours, sounds miserable. I've done it a few days but it ends up taking me upwards of an hour
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:20:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sigh... the welfare trap. Everybody knows about it, but it's been like this for decades and we still don't have policies in place to fix it. Congratulations on leaping the hurdle, but you shouldn't have had a hurdle to leap.
petit_cochon · 1 points · Posted at 18:59:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The government defines the poverty threshold in a very problematic way. The poverty threshold is so low that people can sometimes go above it just by working a little bit more, but they're still not making nearly enough money to survive. So, faced with losing certain benefits and working more at an uncertain job, or working less and keeping benefits...people choose the sure thing.
BankshotMcG · 1 points · Posted at 19:18:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Is a food bank an option?
notafuckingcakewalk · 1 points · Posted at 19:35:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Find out if there are any food kitchens in your area. Many of them will provide foodstuffs to anyone regardless of their income.
notbutteryet · 1 points · Posted at 19:46:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Don't know if anyone else mentioned this but a food bank might be able to help you get better nutrients.
deusset · 1 points · Posted at 19:51:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Having a hard ceiling in public benefits is horrible policy. I hope we can change it.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:01:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
[deleted] · 10 points · Posted at 18:05:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That involves having a free schedule, I'm trying to get into grad school so I can live in a dorm and have more stable living than a month to month lease, I work weird hours and I try to freelance as much as possible, sometimes it's simple like Postmates, sometimes it's doing admin stuff for my friends business and he pays me a bit
[deleted] · -2 points · Posted at 18:13:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
[deleted] · 12 points · Posted at 18:15:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I have my undergrad in physics, and if you can feed yourself better than ramen, rice, and popcorn for 200 a month I welcome your advice
[deleted] · -1 points · Posted at 18:34:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
[deleted] · 7 points · Posted at 18:37:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's in a different comment, but those are my rice, ramen, and popcorn are my staple foods I add variety, sorry for not listing everything I eat
noxstreak · 0 points · Posted at 19:13:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Been reading all your comments.... My old church can food distributions to the needy for free once a week. You may be able to get free good from there which will save you 200.... and you didnt need to attend church just show up on the saturday that they were handing everything out...
Also with a physics degree have you looked into applying for utilities or oil/gas companies. Just the fact you know what V=IR should be enough to get you an interview for basic position making 40k+ a year....
Best of luck dude
Lesp00n · 0 points · Posted at 19:25:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's awfully hard to think about what might happen 20 or 30 years in the future when you're worried about your next meal.
Also that whole no way to store perishable food certainly puts a damper on things.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 19:27:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Lesp00n · 1 points · Posted at 19:49:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oh I'm very aware. I'm also however aware that the possibility of literally starving to death is a thing. And OP is one bad week away from legitimately having to think about that.
Perhaps instead of picking at him you should actually offer helpful advice. Like hey, here's a website with a dozen ways to flavor your beans and rice so you've got some flavor variety. Or suggesting that he not use the flavor packets that come with his ramen and instead get some low sodium bouillon.
But I mean, that's just me thinking that maybe polite suggestions will go further than tearing the guy down and wagging your finger about his health when he's obviously in a really tight spot. The hierarchy of needs is a legit thing and surviving comes far before living well.
NCSUGrad2012 · 279 points · Posted at 17:24:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Works the same way with Obamacare too. In NC if you make $47,000 a year as a single person you get $710 a month. Make $48,000? Absolutely nothing. So that's a huge loss ($8500 a year). They have a calculator to see how much you qualify for.
link
Vailkyrie · 25 points · Posted at 18:20:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Can confirm. I make just under $49K and was super pissed at that last $2K screwing me over. My monthly Heath Insurance premium now costs more than the note on my car and almost half of what I pay on rent for a 1br/1ba apt in an average area.
flyingfisch · 55 points · Posted at 18:38:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
have you considered that depositing that extra 2k into a traditional IRA and would then lower your taxable income to a point where you qualify for the subsidy???
RealSpaceEngineer · 19 points · Posted at 19:07:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
From my understanding, this is the most correct answer. The number used to determine your benefits for the Marketplace is based on your Adjusted Gross Income, which is your Taxable Income minus your standard deduction and personal exemptions. So a Traditional IRA contribution will not count as income in this case.
flyingfisch · 14 points · Posted at 19:18:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
partially correct here. but it's not based on your AGI.
the ACA uses it's own figure called Modified Adjusted Gross Income. MAGI
it factors social security income and other increases and deductions differently than on the tax return, but ultimately the tax return is what balances it.
[deleted] · 8 points · Posted at 18:39:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
flyingfisch · 7 points · Posted at 19:16:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
the ACA actually uses a sliding scale, somewhat. if your state expanded medicaid, anywhere from 0 to 138% of the federal poverty line for your household side qualifies you for medicaid. if your state hates ACA and didn't expand, it is 0 to 100%.
from there, anywhere from 100/138% to 250% FPL gets you a premium tax credit AND deductible breaks. 250 to 400% equals a premium tax credit to help lower the monthly premium.
400 and over and you're deemed "making enough to pay your own way"
now, this isn't based off your standalone gross pay. it's based upon a complex figure called modified adjusted gross income. MAGI.
it does fun things like add back non taxable social security income, adds personal business income, interest, dividends, and takes out other adjustments, such as IRA contributions to lower taxable income, among others.
if you are started out at 250%, or more importantly 400%, you literally can play with these types of figures to reduce or increase your taxable income.
all of this is actually projected ahead of time. to get 2018 benefits, you project what you're going to do in November, December when you apply and sign up. of course, who knows what happens this 2018 year for you income wise. update your application with large changes along the way. it's all balanced when you complete your IRS tax return for the 2018 taxable year in the winter/spring of 2019.
tl:Dr - learn the ways you can adjust your ACA income to reflect your actual lifestyle and wants from the bill, or get a competent tax accountant that will do the brainwork for you AHEAD of time.
4448144484 · 3 points · Posted at 20:42:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm paying at least a few other people's way. My Obamacare costs me 20600/yr before it does anything for me.
flyingfisch · 3 points · Posted at 21:16:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
it's difficult for me to understand why this is the case given your thorough explanation and background, besides a simple assumption which implies that you are above the 400% threshold - in which case you are paying outright premiums.
This goes directly to the insurance company for the plan you have if it's even through the marketplace.
the ACA as it is designed is one thing. the rates hospitals and insurance companies charge directly are quite another.
the premium you would be paying if over the 400% threshold doesn't have much to do with "Obamacare" or the ACA as it should be called.
perhaps some more insight into your unique situation would help further the discussion?
4448144484 · 1 points · Posted at 08:00:51 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
My not so unique situation is that up until Trump took the teeth out of the IRS' ability to fine me for not having an Obamacare approved plan, I was going to pay a fine for not having an Obama approved health plan. That plan, in Ohio, a state with a governor who took all of the incentives and is playing ball with that shit law, affords me the opportunity to pay 20600/yr before I get anything more than a doc visit. I am disallowed to purchase catastrophic only insurance (which is basically what I have via Obamacare) for a reasonable price.
Do the math on what I'm paying right now for nothing. Multiply that out by 20 years. It's not OK. Obamacare is a massive redistribution that isn't fair at all to me or anyone who is young and relatively healthy.
BleedingAssWound · 1 points · Posted at 18:47:29 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
That has to be for a family not one person. Before the ACA you might have had to pay that or worse for a single person with a pre-existing condition, but not taking pre-existing conditions into account it should be less for a single person. At the platinum tier, a 30-year-old nonsmoker will pay about $553 a month for coverage in 2017. That's 6,600/year and that's one of the high end plans and you say you want the lowest. Your numbers don't add up at all. Plus, all you are paying for health insurance can come out pre-tax.
Bottom line, I'm not saying you're lying, but 20600/yr is WAY out of what with what people on the exchanges are paying.
Also, before the ACA, a lot of the "catastrophic" insurance plans were scams anyway. They never really paid, because it's the catastrophic cases that cost insurers all the money anyway. A big problem was they'd find a technicality, pre-existing condition then deny coverage because you didn't list it. The plan you claim to want was likely so cheap because they didn't pay often, and then only after lawsuits, which isn't fun when you have a catastrophic medical problem.
Bottom line, if you're really paying 20,600/yr, you could do WAY better on the ACA exchanges.
4448144484 · 1 points · Posted at 19:05:13 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
It is an exchange plan. It's a shitty bronze plan. Platinum plans aren't available to me in my state.
[deleted] · 6 points · Posted at 19:26:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
4448144484 · 4 points · Posted at 20:43:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Trump killed the enforcement of that penalty. Save your loot next year.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 20:52:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Already planned on lying even if he didn't lol.
4448144484 · 1 points · Posted at 08:14:13 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
huh? That doesn't make sense. He instructed the IRS to not enforce that part of Obamacare. Hate Trump all you'd like. But, don't be a moron and give the gov 900 that you don't have to.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 15:01:46 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I did my taxes before he did that and I am an honest person. So sue me.
4448144484 · 1 points · Posted at 17:34:11 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
being happily penalized by and handing cash to the federal gov for not purchasing something useless that you can't afford isn't exactly a great place to grandstand on morality.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:40:20 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
lol not happily. Lawfully. I read the rules for financial hardship and I didn't qualify so I didn't mark the box. Yeeesh you don't have anything to do today do you?
JayParty · 11 points · Posted at 18:21:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There are jobs in NC that pay $48,000 a year and don't offer health insurance?
say592 · 13 points · Posted at 19:01:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You could always have an employer that doesnt cover $710/month in insurance benefits. If your employer contributed $100/week to your insurance, you would still be in a worse off position.
darthnilloc · 6 points · Posted at 18:56:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I work as an independent contractor in a different state and make more than that but have to cover all my own benefits.
reboticon · 3 points · Posted at 19:24:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Common in trades.
mexicangoober · 26 points · Posted at 18:03:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In NC and all the other back-assward states, if you make $0 to some poverty # of $ per year, you get NO subsidy, because dickhead Republicans tried to "stick it to Obama" by opting outta free federal Medicaid expansion money.
NCSUGrad2012 · 13 points · Posted at 18:12:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's not correct. If you're buying your own plan it has nothing to with Medicaid. Try using the link in my OP and trying it in California. At 47k you get a subsidy but at 48k you don't. In NC like other states you get a subsidy up to 400% the poverty level and then it cuts off. Same as other states. Medicaid applies to people making below the poverty line, if you're buying your own plan and making too much to qualify for a subsidy that's not related to Medicaid.
MadByMoonlight · 11 points · Posted at 18:32:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not all states expanded Medicaid. That's what he's saying. Some states didn't expand Medicaid, so if we aren't also pregnant, under the age limit or disabled, we aren't eligible for that anyways.
And in GA specifically, if you make 0$/year, you don't get a subsidy for the options either. If you don't make at least around $15K/year, you don't get insurance or Medicaid here. You also aren't forced to pay the penalty for not having insurance either.
So the poorest of the poor, in the poorest states (the ones that all chose NOT to expand Medicaid) have not had an option under the ACA at any point.
BleedingAssWound · 3 points · Posted at 18:52:12 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
That really is unfortunate. You have to be healthy to work, go to school, exercise and be productive. The states having choice was thrown in as a sop to conservatives. Actually the whole plan was a conservative plan, and it is well less than optimal. Democrats wound up getting no republican support anyway even though they implemented their own idea.
I don't think there is any hope for GA to expand medicaid in the current environment. You are a voter they don't really care about. 15k/year is SO low for no Medicaid. My heart goes out to those in GA.
flyingfisch · 5 points · Posted at 19:01:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
not if you are smart and contribute to an IRA to offset the income. you'd apply for your projected income after planning for the IRA deduction. you get the subisdy, lower your healthcare premium, keep the money you would have paid as an IRA contribution in your own name, and save the marginal rate on taxes. if you're within barking distance of the 400% threshold you should be evaluating this every damn year. it costs you too much to not do it. respectfully, go get a competent tax accountant that understands the ACA like me.
if you're outside of the 5,500 it takes to qualify well... that's a shitty situation, but are you utilizing enough of a traditional 401k contributions to further reduce your income in addition to the traditional IRA to meet the subsidy if that's truly your aim??
do you own your own business? SEP IRA allows contributions of 53,000 or 25% of income.
there are ways to find it if you look well enough.
that's the type of tax planning turbo tax can and never will do. consider your situation and what your options are.
mexicangoober · 3 points · Posted at 18:52:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is interesting and pertinent to the discussion, because there's a thing that's the opposite of a poverty trap, where crossing the line from 99.999% to 100% of poverty line income results in a massive social benefit of going from $0 to maximum health insurance subsidy.
tokol · 5 points · Posted at 18:11:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This also exists on the poorer side of things with the Medicaid coverage gap. The federal subsidies don't cover poor people because the system assumes that those folks are covered by a state-run Medicaid program. Unfortunately, the Republican party and Republican state leaders decided that undermining Obamacare was more important than letting poor people go to doctors.
I'm in a rural state, and I've had friends with treatable health issues move away specifically because of the Medicaid gap. At the same time, all the small town folk keep saying that the loss of young people is their number one issue. It's infuriating.
Riaayo · 2 points · Posted at 19:57:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Lucky you, in Texas it seems to just scale with what you make between like... 16k - 39k or so (no help under, no help over). Closer you get to that 39k the less they give you. And that's what, 8k under NC's cut off? And if you're making like 45k you'd still get $710 tax credit a month? VS if you made like 38k they offer you like fucking $2 a month.
FawkesYeah · 2 points · Posted at 22:58:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Heads up, your link had your zip code embedded. Also hi neighbor! (Few miles away)
NCSUGrad2012 · 2 points · Posted at 02:18:41 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Thanks for the FYI! That's actually my parents zip code I still live in Raleigh, but I love that area!
introspeck · 1 points · Posted at 21:09:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Right. A few years ago I was unemployed for almost six months, so my estimate annual income was low enough that the plan was almost fully subsidized I got a minimal plan for $300/mo. Just recently I got laid off, and I expect to have another job soon, so my annual income is high enough that all I was offered was a seriously shitty plan for $1400/mo. I could pick up my old employer's much better plan for $1700, so why not.
I wish I didn't have to do this at all, the whole idea of having health insurance through employment is stupid.
Justagreewithme · 1 points · Posted at 19:27:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't understand why we have a bracket system. It seems lie it would be simple and more fair to have a more variable percentage based system.
madamz · -3 points · Posted at 18:08:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
$48k is more than $47,710 though. How is that a loss?
edit: well duh. Had a brain fart on that one.
undo1hundo · 12 points · Posted at 18:10:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's $710 per month, not $710 per year.
seammus · 5 points · Posted at 18:22:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So, this whole month vs year thing, I get it of course, but can you explain it for everybody else
Backstop · 5 points · Posted at 19:55:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you make less than $48,000 a year you get a subsidy of $710 a month to help pay for health insurance. $710 a month for twelve months is $8,520 at the end of the year.
Say you make $47,000, all together that's $55,520. If you got a raise to $48,000 a year, the subsidy goes away and you have just your $48,000.
FawkesYeah · 1 points · Posted at 23:00:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I do have a question. If I get my insurance through my employer, does this still apply to me? I'm assuming not since we're taking about Obamacare, but I'm a bit new to all this. TIA
Backstop · 2 points · Posted at 12:11:20 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
No, if you get insurance through your employer the exchanges and credits don't affect that.
I wouldn't say "Obamacare doesn't affect you at all", because people saw their employer plans get more expensive due to the ACA requiring certain new coverage, but prices on those have been rising every year anyway.
Woefinder · 58 points · Posted at 17:26:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So, if im thinking about this correctly, there is a valley/gully where more money may end up actually being less money in practice (I.e You make more, but the loss of benefits causes it to be a net loss)
Bathroom_Pninja · 48 points · Posted at 17:33:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yup! If you want more info on it, look up "welfare cliff".
lurgi · 5 points · Posted at 18:03:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well designed systems don't have it, but (go figure), benefits aren't always well designed.
5rnie · 5 points · Posted at 18:45:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I haven't come across a single welfare system that doesn't have some form of welfare cliff in the system. If you have one I'd be really interested to know about it. (Seriously.)
lurgi · 2 points · Posted at 18:55:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
AFIAK, the EITC doesn't have a welfare cliff. Even if it does, a welfare system that phases out benefits over an income range should be able to avoid a welfare cliff (although now that I think of it, if some people benefit from multiple sources and others do not, you can avoid a cliff, but it would be hard to avoid a "steep slope", which would have many of the same problems).
gyroda · 2 points · Posted at 20:02:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
FWIW, if anyone wants to bring up the UK then there's a pretty steep cliff with Carers Allowance.
glorioussideboob · 3 points · Posted at 18:27:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yup, it's called the poverty trap.
PrimeIntellect · 3 points · Posted at 18:32:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not for taxes because of how brackets work, but very possible for benefits with a certain income limit.
Woefinder · 1 points · Posted at 18:33:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yup, exactly why I said benefits (as even if they went up in a bracket, only said amount over the lower bound would be taxed higher)
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:57:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
nmrnmrnmr · 2 points · Posted at 00:42:08 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Happened to me. Break was at like $50k, for simple math. And yeah, it was like $150 per check until then. Then jumped to nearly $300. Not quite double, maybe like $250 or $275 or something. And yeah. I got a raise as a percentage and it took me to like $50,285. And I would up losing money all year in practical terms since health care went up like $125 per paycheck (26 times per year). I'd have been better off being bumped to just under $50k. The next year I got a promotion and pulled far enough ahead that I made up the difference in health care costs and started making more per paycheck again, but that bracket cost nailed me for 12 months making a raise effectively flat or a slight loss.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:02:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
jmoneycgt · 2 points · Posted at 18:24:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Can you explain that like I am 5?
BloodyFreeze · 4 points · Posted at 17:25:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Exactly. Where I work, I have great benefits. As soon as I make a certain amount, I will have to contribute more money for the same benefits. It's not HORRIBLE though. If I hit that next bracket, I'll have to make a dollar an hour more to cover the additional costs, so when that time comes, I'll be sure to have that discussion with my employer.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 17:49:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, there are some nasty drops in the US benefits systems. If you're making between 20k and like 50k, you're actually "making" about the same... if you're like a single mom on section 8.
elfinito77 · 2 points · Posted at 17:55:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Also, many deductions are income based. For instance, once I hit 150K with my wife I could not longer deduct my Student Loan interest from law school. So, I actually did discuss raises with my boss, and basically skipped a raise that would have put me at about 153K, and waited until the raise was more than the tax cost.
solilo · 3 points · Posted at 17:32:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes, also potentially with retirement plans. $118,000 to $120,000 means you're no longer eligible for the full contribution to a Roth IRA.
mac-0 · 4 points · Posted at 17:50:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In the US, there is a "phase-out" range of income for nearly every tax benefit. With Roth IRAs for example, you are eligible to fully contribute while you make less than $118,000. If you make between $118,000 - $133,000 you can partially contribute. For every ~$3 you make over $118,000, you can contribute about ~$1 less than the limit. That means if you make $119,000, you can still contribute to $5,500 - (1/3 * $1,000) = ~$5,167.
This is true for most "cutoffs" you would find on an income tax return. For the most part, there aren't many circumstances where making $1 more and bumping yourself up to the next bracket or cutoff range would be undesirable. (Note that I am only talking about federal income taxes. There are many cases where you may be adversely affected by barely beating some income threshold, but most of those are things that don't actually come from the IRS).
musing_amuses · 1 points · Posted at 18:01:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Is the Roth IRA cutoff for net (taxable) income or gross income?
double-dog-doctor · 2 points · Posted at 21:32:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Net.
derpaperdhapley · 2 points · Posted at 18:09:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
They have Roth Conversions to get around this.
pimppapy · 2 points · Posted at 17:46:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Can confirm. Got a $0.50/hr raise and lost $400 worth of food stamps per month for a family of 5. $320/mo poorer than before the raise.
Bathroom_Pninja · 0 points · Posted at 17:54:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yikes, that stinks. Can you negotiate with your employer for a reduction in salary in exchange for some vacation time? Maybe an HSA account (I usually think they suck, but might be beneficial for a family of 5).
derpaperdhapley · 4 points · Posted at 18:10:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
HSA's offer triple tax advantages and are beneficial for anyone.
Bathroom_Pninja · 2 points · Posted at 18:13:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't think they're beneficial for people who want to be able to spend their money on non-health related things.
derpaperdhapley · 4 points · Posted at 18:34:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
At some point you're going to have to spend money on your health though. If you're one of the lucky ones who don't then at age 65 you can use your accumulated HSA funds for insurance/Medicare premiums.
Bathroom_Pninja · 3 points · Posted at 19:01:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm in a fortunate enough position that I can likely take advantage of one. Many Americans find it difficult to acquire $500 for an emergency situation, and to have money sitting in an account for health when a car breaks down is not the best of scenarios.
Thank you though, for piquing my interest in it--I was under the impression that HSAs were essentially Flex spending accounts, and that they didn't roll over. You have been instrumental in changing my perspective with regards to that.
derpaperdhapley · 1 points · Posted at 19:04:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Glad I could help!
anooblol · 1 points · Posted at 17:55:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
For example, if you move above the poverty line, and are no longer eligible for food stamps?
Bathroom_Pninja · 1 points · Posted at 17:57:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yup.
el_monstruo · 1 points · Posted at 18:07:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is a good tip but most of the people I hear complaining about it do not look that in depth. They just look at the raw salary numbers and think they are losing out. Kudos to those who actually look at all aspects though, everybody needs to.
Eddie_shoes · 1 points · Posted at 18:24:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My brother is paid a salary that is just barely above the ceiling on non-exempt making it so they can work him as many hours a week they want without him getting paid overtime.
SPACKlick · 1 points · Posted at 18:46:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In most countries I'm aware of (primarily european) benefit cliffs are specifically legislated out. The benefits drop incrementally as you pass the threshold so while it's possible to say be £0 better off after a £2,000 raise it's theoretically impossible to be worse off.
Bathroom_Pninja · 1 points · Posted at 18:58:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Fair enough--I was certainly talking from a US-centric perspective. I think that's how they should be built, for sure.
ArcadeStallman · 1 points · Posted at 18:47:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Especially with disability benefits. In the U.S., if you are ever in possession of more than $2000 at once, all your disability benefits are ended, usually within hours. Even if you're saving to go to college or buy a wheelchair.
ChangingChance · 1 points · Posted at 18:55:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Being single and having a muscular dystrophy means I can't make more than 16 k other wise i would end up paying my wage in health insurance.
OuroborosSC2 · 1 points · Posted at 18:59:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Noticeable dip in standard of living when I went from $9 and food stamps to $11 and none.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:00:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
True, but the comment was qualified with the "Tax brackets" statement. Medicaid or public assistance is another animal, entirely (and, obviously, an inconsistent one, at that).
legaladult · 1 points · Posted at 19:13:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, I'm on state health insurance, and if I start making more than I do now, I'll have to pay for insurance and/or pay for my medications myself, which will result in me having less money left over. That shit's expensive.
NvizoN · 1 points · Posted at 19:40:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is my problem. I have to be able to accept a job that allows me to make enough extra money to afford health insurance because I'm on Medicaid while I'm in school. I pay all of my own bills, but I can't afford health insurance. If I work more than 35 hours a week at my job, I make too much. So, by my math, I have to he able to find a job that's full time, that also pays AT LEAST 5 or 6 dollars more an hour than what I currently make in order to afford health insurance and not be worse off than I am right now. It's a horrible system, but I can't really do a whole lot about while being in school full time and out on my own.
tymme · 1 points · Posted at 19:40:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yep; I was in this situation with my last job. $16/hr was a nice wage, but after taking out work benefits, losing the assistance we had before, and adding student loan repayment back into the equation, it was actually better to be on SSDI.
l4z3rb34k · 1 points · Posted at 19:40:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is essentially what is called the welfare trap, or in more recent rhetoric, the welfare cliff.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_trap
geak78 · 1 points · Posted at 19:42:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is why we need a gradual system. For every $2-3 you earn at a job you lose $1 of benefits.
tinman3 · 1 points · Posted at 19:54:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is also the case for certain "phase-outs". Many deductions are taken away for the wealthy. A raise may mean no more deduction which could certainly less money in your pocket.
LackingSkill · 1 points · Posted at 19:57:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sadly I only ever hear this complaint from well paid professionals... With degrees involving lots of math..
wedgiey1 · 1 points · Posted at 20:00:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, this can happen with childcare benefits too.
GrzegorzWidla · 1 points · Posted at 20:15:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, that doesn't happen anywhere in western world but US.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:49:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
this is definitely true. I was caught in the real estate boom/bust of the 2000s and I lost my home. Since I made 64K the previous year I could not get any benefits and ended up in the homeless shelter. I had to wait an entire year of making nothing and now I have a home, and every service is discounted. If I were to get a job (I am blacklisted so not a possibility) I'd need to make about 90K a year to get the benefits I enjoy today. It's not just medical and leisure center and transit discounts, I get free legal advice any time I need it, I have a lawyer working on my child's abuse case. If I made even 18K a year I would not qualify for anything and would be expected to pay tens of thousands in legal fees to accomplish the same thing. The only quality of life difference, after all these years, is I take the bus instead of drive a car but I live in the city, so. All the money I get goes directly back into the local economy anyhow to pay for civic services and buy food and clothing. Many people are making money from my existence, I just don't get to keep any of the cash myself, I just get to live.
DonOfspades · 0 points · Posted at 17:42:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Stupid non single payer systems
AVeryMadFish · 0 points · Posted at 18:16:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yep, something similar just happened to me. Got a $1,500 raise, lost my ACA subsidy, and now make $25 less per pay period. Needless to say I was pretty disappointed to find that one out.
tofu98 · 0 points · Posted at 18:47:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
hooray for socialized health care!
incogburritos · 0 points · Posted at 18:47:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If only everyone got medicare and food stamps? Huh.
Gillbreather · 146 points · Posted at 16:54:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In the US?
wronglyzorro · 253 points · Posted at 16:58:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is how it works in the United states.
Manchlenk · 33 points · Posted at 17:10:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And Canada.
[deleted] · 102 points · Posted at 17:22:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
[deleted] · 9 points · Posted at 17:35:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well, no, I get worked up because that's not enough money, not because they're "cheating." Although some of them certainly are cheating as well.
Bathroom_Pninja · 8 points · Posted at 17:38:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Your 20% seems a bit off. To get to the highest bracket, you have to go through the others as well. Without deductions, you'll wind up paying slightly less than 39% on your standard income.
The 20% comes from deductions. What people tend to get upset about is that income from investment (capital gains) is taxed at a far lower rate (something like 15%) than other types of income.
FairInLoveAndWar · 1 points · Posted at 18:13:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I believe it is 6%
Bathroom_Pninja · 3 points · Posted at 18:15:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
According to the tax policy center, it's 15-20% if you're making above the 15% bracket.
Tax policy center
vidro3 · 1 points · Posted at 22:09:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
it was seriously like 5 people who paid that too.
coleymoleyroley · 30 points · Posted at 17:12:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The amount of people who tell me they didn't take a job at the higher tax rate because they'd "lose money". No, you won't!!
EDIT Some really interesting comments here, I should clarify I was referring to salaried UK workers.
sandm000 · 9 points · Posted at 17:33:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There are all sorts of benefits that you can be getting. $1 more and you are no longer eligible.
https://www.fns.usda.gov/snap/eligibility
http://www.nhhfa.org/assets/pdf/hudincome_current.pdf
Maybe the "lose money" isn't lost income, but lost subsidies?
[deleted] · 6 points · Posted at 18:17:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I had a coworker who turned down a promotion that would have seen him move into the low 100's from around 90k. He said taxes would eat it all up. I've only heard the tac bracket issue from people like him.
[deleted] · 37 points · Posted at 17:19:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you don't accept a raise because you are concerned about having to contribute to society, you didn't deserve the raise.
[deleted] · -12 points · Posted at 17:35:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's a dumb way of looking at it, but OK.
factoid_ · 5 points · Posted at 17:30:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The difference is going from hourly to salary usually. If you move into an exempt status they can work you more hours without paying you any overtime (in most states). So maybe you'd make more on paper, but they won't pay you for a lot of extra hours.
That's usually the complaint I've heard, not that people don't understand how tax brackets work.
mozennymoproblems · 2 points · Posted at 17:22:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There's a cutoff salary for when you legally have to make overtime. I know restaurant managers who work 80 hours weeks and got a raise to that exact figure.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:19:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you don't accept a raise because you are concerned about having to contribute to society, you didn't deserve the raise.
TreadheadS · 4 points · Posted at 17:27:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
and the UK, and Cyprus
Samhang · 3 points · Posted at 17:31:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not completely true, personal allowance reduction for salaries over 100k can make you worse off until your salary exceeds a certain point again. Otherwise it's true.
https://www.ft.com/content/622ff86c-d16e-11e5-92a1-c5e23ef99c77
TreadheadS · 1 points · Posted at 17:36:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
paywall :(
[deleted] · -8 points · Posted at 17:48:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
shadowbannedlol · 7 points · Posted at 18:09:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The Canadian government seems to claim that it is a marginal tax rate?
https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-agency/services/tax/individuals/frequently-asked-questions-individuals/canadian-income-tax-rates-individuals-current-previous-years.html
Mtnn · 5 points · Posted at 18:27:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
/sigh confusing comment chain. Thought you were talking about the benefits being cut off for Canadians too.
Yep, marginal tax brackets work exactly the same here and are frequently confused by people saying "I'll never work overtime, it all goes to taxes."
Cheers for tracking down a source. Good approach.
And extra apologies for being rude... I'm having a day. yikes.
YerDaDoesTheAvon · 2 points · Posted at 18:46:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
UK too
2hoodrich4me · -4 points · Posted at 18:16:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The united states of Mexico?
Engineer_ThorW_Away · 14 points · Posted at 17:22:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Can someone find a country where this isn't the case?
archlich · 3 points · Posted at 19:17:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
North Korea
Engineer_ThorW_Away · 1 points · Posted at 11:31:19 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
While interesting that they have essentially no tax and special tax laws, its still not a country that demonstrates a reduction in income from getting a "raise" or where the tax bracket decreases your net income.
burf · 9 points · Posted at 18:04:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Everywhere. I don't think there's a single country on the planet where you would actually lose money by having a higher gross income.
LeftZer0 · 10 points · Posted at 17:22:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In most of the world, AFAIK.
take_this_username · 7 points · Posted at 17:34:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
everywhere
OriginalName123123 · 10 points · Posted at 17:08:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes but sometimes earning more than a certain amount will strip you off other bonuses that yiu might get because you earned less.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:15:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What kind of company gives bonuses to it's low pay employees and not its high pay employees?
TheNinjaFennec · 6 points · Posted at 18:47:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Bonuses not from your company but from the government. You might end up paying more in insurance, medical care, etc. due to you not falling into a low enough income level to receive those things at a cheaper rate.
OriginalName123123 · 1 points · Posted at 12:54:26 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Exactly.
[deleted] · 86 points · Posted at 16:46:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
PinkyBlinky · 10 points · Posted at 18:14:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I wouldn't really call that a poverty trap. That's the government saying now you make enough money to be self sufficient. But you're right it shouldn't be a hard cutoff it should be a gradual lessening in aid so there's no breakpoint like that.
Utkar22 · 3 points · Posted at 17:17:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
ELI5 plz
keevenowski · 24 points · Posted at 17:21:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think what they are getting at is that a lot of social programs are not as marginalized as tax brackets are. For example, a social program may say "if your income is < $30k you get a stipend of $200/month". The catch is that if you go from making $29,999 to $30,000, you lose the $200/month because you made an extra $1/year.
This isn't true of all programs but many of them have at least one income bracket that is poorly setup like this.
Mtnn · 4 points · Posted at 17:53:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Canadian programs generally are not all or nothing. You don't lose your entire benefit by entering a new bracket. It's reduced in steps until you hit substantially higher income at which point it becomes zero.
los_rascacielos · 4 points · Posted at 18:18:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Right, but even step reductions result in the same scenario, it's just not as bad.
Drinkingdoc · 2 points · Posted at 18:22:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
True that, but if you look at each step individually youll sometimes see disincentives. Why work an extra hour when ill make the same pay diebto clawbacks? Why 2 hours? Or 3? Ive only seen this at low income in Canada ie. 20000 or less a year, but it's unavoidable afaik with safety nets.
[deleted] · 11 points · Posted at 17:30:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In the us there are programs like Medicaid and childcare assistance (as well as I think food stamps which if you're not careful you can be disqualified for living with roommates who push the household income up past a certain threshold, this one is tricky). For example, say you're a single parent with two kids. You might get subsizided childcare so that you can continue to work and not need more food stamps or housing assistance. But if you get a raise or bonus that puts you above a certain amount then you might lose that childcare benefit, so you would need to find your own childcare which might be so expensive that you cannot afford to work the job even at the increased pay. So that person might lose the job due to their inability to find a childcare option that they can afford / missing shifts too many times as a result. When that happens they might just start the whole cycle over. Apply for interim benefits to get by while looking for a job in the salary range that will qualify for childcare assistance or at a much higher pay that will pay for the childcare outright (less likely). I've heard of businesses generally being pretty understanding about this and actually checking with employees to make sure that a pay raise won't screw them out of some vital benefit (super fucked up). Insurance can be like this too. In the us I believe this can vary state by state. If you're getting health insurance through the exchange then depending on the subsidy structure for your market you might not be able to afford a plan if you make just enough to no longer qualify for subsidies.
Captain_Cowboy · 5 points · Posted at 18:28:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A common term for this is "welfare cliff", and it's a result of welfare programs not tappering off with income increases.
bluepost14 · 1 points · Posted at 19:37:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In the US we call this the welfare cliff. Someone who makes very little might be better off not taking a small raise because they then lose all their benefits.
exonwarrior · 28 points · Posted at 17:09:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
For taxes no. But you can be worse off because of losing benefits.
I had a co-workers who would never work more than X hours a week, or Y hours a month (can't remember if it was weekly or monthly) because she was a single mom and would lose access to certain benefits once she made over a certain amount.
Making 25k (GBP) instead of 22k annually is awesome, unless it leads to you losing 3k or more in benefits.
SwahiliArt · 8 points · Posted at 17:28:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Smart governments setup sliding scales for most benefits so this negative incentive and dependence isn't there.
exonwarrior · 7 points · Posted at 17:39:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, smart ones do. Not all though.
anotherhumantoo · 7 points · Posted at 17:56:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
For those curious, this isn't the way the US works
http://www.learnliberty.org/blog/the-welfare-cliff-and-why-many-low-income-workers-will-never-overcome-poverty/
pimppapy · 2 points · Posted at 18:00:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Another side to that is the amount of hassle you have to go through to get said benefits.
"Documentation to continue benefits required no later than 5 days of the date of this notice or your case will be terminated"
"You were over issued benefits due to your $0.50/hr raise. $X must be paid back within five days or case will be terminated"
"Your documents are incomplete. Note: did not circle male/female for Jessica. Your case has been terminated. You have 10 days to appeal"
rbkc12345 · 1 points · Posted at 17:40:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes.
The state child health insurance program in my state was:
$15/ month per family if under 200% of that year's poverty level income
Or
$150 per kid if over.
I was on the margin, with 4 kids. I could have afforded to pay them $150/month total. But no, it was $15 or $600. I couldn't pay $600 even if I was making a little over the max, obviously.
If they had charged more to me and everyone like me who could have paid more, then they could have more money for the program, and wouldn't have to have such a sharp cuttoff.
Sliding scale makes so much more sense.
[deleted] · -3 points · Posted at 18:20:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Schnectadyslim · 4 points · Posted at 18:27:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Or their circumstances could have changed. But I'm sure you are right, fuck them for being in a bad spot...
[deleted] · -2 points · Posted at 18:32:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Schnectadyslim · 4 points · Posted at 18:34:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Again, you are making assumptions and assuming the worst assumptions at that. Maybe the bread winner died/was fired, etc.
[deleted] · -2 points · Posted at 18:39:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Schnectadyslim · 4 points · Posted at 18:49:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ok, you clearly have no interest in understanding circumstance that could be outside someone's control. My bad.
jmoneycgt · 3 points · Posted at 18:30:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Their significant other could have died, got disabled or skipped town. Shit happens. I mean, they also could've had a bunch of kids they never could afford in the first place, but I try not to think that way when I don't know one way or another.
rbkc12345 · 0 points · Posted at 01:27:10 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
4 kids with the same guy, over 16 years, while we were both working. Their dad decided to become a raging abusive unemployed racist asshole as his midlife crisis.
And with 6 people in the family, even with a good job I wasn't over 2x poverty level.
Certainly could not afford insurance but could get it for the kids through the state program.
If you think this is an uncommon situation, or that you are immune or above it, i will hope for you that you don't learn the truth the hard way.
airborngrmp · 5 points · Posted at 18:00:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
After I got out of the Army and started working in the private sector and making some actual money we had to pay taxes for essentially the first time ever. The way I put it to my wife was that we'd had my salary and our benefits paid for by other people's taxes for essentially our entire adult life, and that now it was our turn to do it for someone else's family.
Don't get me wrong, its no fun ponying up a percentage of what you earn each year, but there is a reason for it and we could hardly complain after benefitting from it for so long.
FrankenBerryGxM · 2 points · Posted at 22:36:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Thanks for serving, I happily pay taxes for people such as yourself to serve so I don't have.
Holiday_in_Asgard · 7 points · Posted at 17:45:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you are just talking about income tax, you are right. There are no "tax cliffs" where earning $1 more will cost you more than $1 in taxes. However, there are "welfare cliffs" where making $1 more from a job or some other source of income costs you more than $1 in welfare benefits.
IamaMermaidAMA · 4 points · Posted at 17:24:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ohh, this makes so much more sense! Thanks for explaining it this way. I just kind of went along like "Yeah, okay. People say it's good to take a raise." so i did, but now I'm off of my free health insurance, which is a huge bummer that is getting really hard to afford.
elfinito77 · 3 points · Posted at 17:58:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You are right about the actual tax-brackets, but not this conclusion. Benefits, tax credits, and special deductions often have income qualifications that have hard lines that if you cross, you lose that benefit.
garrett_k · 3 points · Posted at 17:14:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's not always the case
SexLiesAndExercise · 1 points · Posted at 17:22:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
True, and it's something the government should work to fix in the weird cases where it happens.
Salmoncubes · 3 points · Posted at 17:14:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It is a possibility with welfare programs, though. This is especially prevalent in poor, rural areas of the US. It's a really sad system, but it'd what you need to do in places like my hometown, where a $10/hour job is considered really good, and most are part-time. If we didn't have Medicare and food stamps, we would all live in incredible poverty.
Knineteen · 3 points · Posted at 17:17:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Similar topic....employers like mine base health care premiums on pay bands. A raise that puts you in a higher pay band, needs to cover the increased cost of your health care premium. Otherwise, the employee could actually lose money on the raise.
Ollyvyr · 3 points · Posted at 17:43:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I've heard a number of people over the years refuse to work overtime because Uncle Sam is going to get most of the extra money and it's not worth it. I never really got the logic to that. Uncle Sam isn't going to take so much that you still won't come out ahead.
Spaded21 · 4 points · Posted at 19:44:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well in this case, it could be that the extra money after taxes isn't enough for the overtime to be worth it.
SaffellBot · 3 points · Posted at 19:59:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There is someone I work with like that. He's right at the end of a steep tax bracket. In effect he's takes a 10% pay cut on overtime because it will all be in the next bracket, and that isn't worth it to him.
Inertial_Jarvis · 3 points · Posted at 18:07:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Good one! I have heard people say they would lose all the money they would earn from working overtime to taxes, so there is no point. What they don't understand is they are simply being taxed at their highest tax bracket for the year, which would be somewhere between 15% and 30+% depending on their income. It is never greater than or equal to 100%, though.
slayer_of_idiots · 3 points · Posted at 18:12:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
True for brackets, but for tax credits, deductions, Roth IRA, and other stuff that goes into taxes, there are hard caps and phase outs that can cause a higher effective tax beyond what your raise would be.
wickedzeus · 1 points · Posted at 19:45:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What you describe would generally affect a small number of people towards the edges of the income bell curve, I still think this is an important misconception to clear up for most people. The easiest way I've found to explain the concept is using bucket imagery for the different brackets
omgFWTbear · 1 points · Posted at 20:13:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Incorrect. The median family in the US has an income around 45$k. Most of the benefits cut out between 20-40k, so this impacts most Americans /that pay taxes/.
wickedzeus · 1 points · Posted at 20:16:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That number is lower than I remember, I thought median household income was somewhere in be mid 50s
omgFWTbear · 1 points · Posted at 20:37:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My numbers could be dated a few years, but it isn't like it's moved dramatically; and either still has a whole quartertile covered.
ReverendDizzle · 3 points · Posted at 18:53:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I immediately CTRL+F'ed for this one. I can't believe how many people don't understand this.
If you're in the, say, 33% tax bracket in the United States, you're only in the 33% tax bracket for your income from ~191k to ~$416k. The money you make up to that 191k is taxed, incrementally, at lower tax brackets.
But people don't fucking get that and act like the minute that person goes from making $416,700 to $416,701 they pay 35% on the whole amount instead of 35% on the dollar difference.
FrankenBerryGxM · 1 points · Posted at 20:42:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Plus I have 100 people telling me the rare cases I'm wrong lol
JennyFromTheBlock79 · 3 points · Posted at 19:05:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Even with amt?
TheKingOfTCGames · 2 points · Posted at 17:28:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
nah not even close. theres a magical line of 29k salary for single parents that if they step over they start losing access to chunks of 30k worth of benefits.
there was a study for this, and its not very linear. things will not be fair in aggregate and its naive to expect it to work out that way. don't listen to random redditors and do your own research.
if you are at 25-60k DO NOT TAKE EVERY RAISE AT FACE VALUE and do the calculations your self. you don't want to be out healthcare and free lunch for your kids cause you took a 2k raise.
FrankenBerryGxM · 1 points · Posted at 22:41:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What I'm getting from this is don't have kids until you make 60/year or more
bluepost14 · 1 points · Posted at 19:39:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's not taxes though. That's a welfare issue. Still a problem though.
TheKingOfTCGames · 1 points · Posted at 20:21:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
it completely breaks the initial premise that you take every raise. it patently false for the people it matters to most. stop trying to rule lawyer for shitty advice.
the advice is bad and op should feel bad for passing it out full stop. the fact that it's technically true makes it even worse, because someone who is vulnerable will follow it and fuck themselves over.
bluepost14 · 1 points · Posted at 20:23:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I agree with you that taking a raise isn't always beneficial. I wrote a econ paper in college on the welfare cliff and how it traps people so I'm not arguing against that. However the original post was about tax brackets and how people think making more money makes you worse off when it comes to taxes.
TheKingOfTCGames · 1 points · Posted at 20:33:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
worse off in money is worse off in money, don't take the raise if it will hurt you.
the entire op is wrong and anybody who takes the advice might be screwed. shitty advice should be called out especially if its correct in a technical sense and incorrect in real life.
Nurum · 2 points · Posted at 18:01:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There is a spot (around $85k in the US IIRC) where you loose a lot of tax credits and other breaks so a minor raise will actually cause you to take home less. For the most part though you are entirely correct.
gimp2x · 2 points · Posted at 18:02:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
you can be disqualified from things like a RothIRA, mortgage programs, etc- a few extra thousand could certainly cost you more than its worth, but not in "taxes"
thetransportedman · 2 points · Posted at 18:22:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My mom literally quit her job for this reason. My dad is the bread winner and she just worked on the weekdays to have something to do and have a little more expendable income. Then it became a tax bracket thing where her not working made them more money than working. Seems crazy
omgFWTbear · 2 points · Posted at 18:47:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Incorrect. There are two very small, very specific exceptions:
1) Between 20-40k, there are a number of benefits that if you only marginally exceed while using the benefit, you're worse off. (E.g., a 2k/yr benefit cutting out at 30$k, getting a 1500$ pay raise from 29$k will set you back).
2) Around 90$k, if you have student loans, you're no longer able to deduct the loan. So if you were are 88$k, a 3$k pay raise might eliminate a 9$k deduction.
In all other cases, yes, idiots misunderstand how taxes work.
fj333 · 2 points · Posted at 19:00:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you have a lot of student loan and medical debt, your income moving past a certain point will hurt you in taxes a lot. As well getting married, if it puts your combined income past that point. My wife loses probably 10k a year that she can't claim on debts she's repaying, since we got married.
snoweel · 2 points · Posted at 19:55:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Most people don't understand this when tax policy is being debated.
Geta-Ve · 2 points · Posted at 19:57:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Can any Canadian chime in with how it works here?
RoHbTC · 3 points · Posted at 16:49:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But if that raise comes with new responsibilities it may not be worth it to you personally.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 17:57:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Joe the Plumber became famous because he didn't understand this concept while talking to President Obama.
be0wulf8860 · 2 points · Posted at 17:41:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You think 90% of people don't know this?
BraveSirRobin · 8 points · Posted at 18:06:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
100% absolutely, it's the basis of the commonly held false belief that the rich only donate to charity so they can pay less tax. The implication is that it provides them a net gain.
GlyphGryph · 2 points · Posted at 19:00:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well there are tricks the rich can use to do just that but they are... quasi-legal at best, just hard to notice. Like donating to your own charity and using it to pay for flights to cities you would have visited anyway, or donating objects "worth" an amount in excess of what you actually paid for them.
It's not just 'donate money, pay less than the amount donated in taxes as a result! Savings!'
BraveSirRobin · 1 points · Posted at 21:22:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That genuinely seems to be the popular perception on it though, I've had that specific argument on reddit several times and in one case iirc the other guy simply would not believe it no matter what evidence was shown. It almost seems to be religious in it's believers, perhaps as some twisted subconscious personal justification as to why they don't donate money!
FrankenBerryGxM · 1 points · Posted at 22:40:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Donating to your own charity where 90% of donations goes towards operation expenses and salaries.
The Clinton foundation
spicy-mayo · 2 points · Posted at 16:52:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Exactly, you'll never take home less money if you get a raise.
Laborismoney · 1 points · Posted at 18:36:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Google "welfare cliff".
spicy-mayo · 2 points · Posted at 19:27:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You may not always be better off, but your paycheck will not go down if you get a raise.
Laborismoney · 1 points · Posted at 19:28:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Why change the premise? We are responding to the same comment, aren't we?
spicy-mayo · 2 points · Posted at 19:29:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
that was the OP not me. I just agreed with the point that you'll never take home less money if you get a raise.
Laborismoney · 1 points · Posted at 19:30:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But you responded to OP saying, "Exactly".
Interesting tactic here buddy.
EDIT: Wrong reply my bad.
EDIT2: No, right reply.
MisterDerptastic · 3 points · Posted at 17:12:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You're partially wrong yet reddit does seem to love circlejerking this one.
Lets say that people that earn 100K or less qualify for tax breaks and welfare assistance worth 8K. If they accept the raise, they now earn 105k, meaning they no longer qualify for 8K in welfare assistance, meaning they have 105K in total, where they previously would have had 108K in total (100K wage and the 8K benefits).
Something reddit loves to forget is that tax brackets are not the only thing that determines how much you have left, sometimes you get something in assistance or tax breaks or whatever. A small raise can push you over the limit so you no longer qualify for those benefits and you may end up worse than before.
TLDR: Sometimes you WILL be worse off for accepting a raise.
tlsrandy · 11 points · Posted at 17:24:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A lot of people who think they'll lose money going into a higher tax bracket aren't getting any benefits. They just truly don't understand how tax brackets work.
Surinical · 2 points · Posted at 17:26:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's true but most those things aren't happening at 100K they're happening down around 20 or 30 k. Usually the argument I see is people that make around 80k saying well if I made any more I'd be taxed more, trying to feel better about not making more money.
The only income-based benefit I can think of up that high is the tax credit you can get for student loan interest paid phases out at 88 K I think
NavyAnchor03 · 1 points · Posted at 17:44:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes! Came here for this.
DubiousVirtue · 1 points · Posted at 17:51:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Unless you are paying child maintenance.
NFLinPDX · 1 points · Posted at 17:55:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The only way you get less after earning more is when bonuses/commissions are factored in.
Example 1.
You earn $25/hr and you work a lot of overtime, 20 hours, so you make 40 hours at $25 and 20 hours at $37.50 for a total of $1750. Taxes take $350 (20% for easy math), you get $1400 minus insurance and other things.
Example 2. You burned yourself out so worked no overtime, but your commission pay comes in on this check and you earned $1000 for your hard work the prior week. 40 hours at $25 per, and another $900 bonus for commission puts you at $2000 earned, but your taxes are only 20% on the hourly pay and 40% on the "bonus" pay, so you pay $540 in taxes and take home only $1360.
It all evens out come refund season, where the source of the money becomes irrelevant, but on your paycheck, you have to move into a considerable bracket change for a large chunk of a similar total income (i.e. commissions and bonuses) to take home less net on a larger gross.
SciencyNerdGirl · 1 points · Posted at 18:01:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Same principle as when people take on a bad business to "get tax write-offs". Losing money, no matter what the tax advantage, doesn't help you. I'm always amazed about people who say these things.
FrankenBerryGxM · 2 points · Posted at 20:54:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It just makes people feel better about losing money
TheOldGods · 1 points · Posted at 19:46:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There is strategy to an acquisition like that though, and it definitely involves taxes.
They probably oversimplify it, but there is some truth behind it.
djdadi · 1 points · Posted at 18:20:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'd say closer to 98% of people don't understand this. Hell, I didn't understand this until reddit. Pretty sure no one teaches this at schools in the US.
eddietwang · 1 points · Posted at 18:42:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
oh shit is that how that works!?
Zeran · 1 points · Posted at 18:45:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Huh. TIL
datchilla · 1 points · Posted at 18:47:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The real problem is with a married couple.
Imagine the wife makes 100k and the husband makes 50k. The husband is offer a raise of 100% but he'll take one 100% more work. If they're filing jointly the husband might want a different deal since the extra money he's making will be taxed different than the 150k they're currently making but he'll still be taking on 100% more responsilbity.
Countdwn2static · 1 points · Posted at 18:50:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I did not know this. Thanks!
AnarkeIncarnate · 1 points · Posted at 19:15:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Someone forgot to take into account things like AMT
rwv · 1 points · Posted at 19:24:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not even! If you get a raise to $105k there is no way you'd be paying $100k tax bracket because of deductions. I'm pretty sure for 99% of people the "pre-tax income" would take your adjusted gross income below $100k.
crono1224 · 1 points · Posted at 19:30:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Marginal tax rate vs average tax rate.
gerbs · 1 points · Posted at 19:32:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Only true for higher income brackets. Poor people can literally be punished for taking a raise. We faced this problem as a family a few years back: It was cheaper to be unmarried and keep two separate "households" so that she could qualify for MinnesotaCare than it was for us to be married and live together.
This is from 2014, but it's still true today. We faced it last March trying to find insurance for my wife. I now have a much better job that pays 100% of healthcare for our family, so we don't have to worry, but it's something a lot of families will deal with.
FrankenBerryGxM · 1 points · Posted at 20:39:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Glad you got healthcare, my point was taking a raise will never make you worse off from taxes. But if Debra is working full time, shouldn't she be offered benefits from her employer?
gerbs · 1 points · Posted at 20:55:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not if they're under the limit. Employer mandate only applies to employers of 50 or more people. http://www.healthlawguideforbusiness.org/sites/main/files/file-attachments/snr_lucaspg06_121113-flowcharts.pdf
The_Doctor_Bear · 1 points · Posted at 19:32:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What triggers this false impression is when people get a bonus or work a small amount of overtime that pushed them just barely into the next tax bracket, most companies will tax the paycheck as if you made that amount of money on every check all year at the higher effective rate, so you could theoretically make $1 that pushed you to a higher tax rate and get paid essentially the same for more work, since most people in that situation are young retail employees they see that and think fuck that I ain't working for free, or divide their paycheck by hours worked and get a lower accounting of their hourly pay then if they hadn't worked overtime. What they don't realize is that they should have either adjusted their deductibles or else get that money back on their tax return.
illuxion · 1 points · Posted at 19:37:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You can if that raise triggers AMT. F!#$ AMT!!!!
Goldeagle1123 · 1 points · Posted at 19:39:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, taxes really should be calculated using a formula that curves, versus brackets that fuck people over if they just barely making over the brackets threshold.
dackots · 1 points · Posted at 19:42:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Almost everyone understands that.
pointseeker · 1 points · Posted at 19:47:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Mostly true, though for some at the very bottom there is a narrow area where you can really be screwed on benefits. I'm trying to find the exact amount, but there's a certain gap/cliff type area where you lose the lower benefits (I think it's along the line of food stamps + ACA) and for the next $8-10k of income or so you barely breakeven.
objames · 1 points · Posted at 19:51:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
People just don't know what the word marginal means.
cant_think_of_one_ · 1 points · Posted at 19:58:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Usually true. There are, for example, I think, some allowances that you lose as you move into the top tax bracket in the UK so, you can actually be worse off with a small increase in your taxable income I think. If I am correct, it only affects pretty high incomes where you can probably figure it out or pay someone to advise you if you are making that.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:00:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Taxes no, but it can affect benefits. Obamacare subsidies, Medicaid, food stamps, affordable housing, etc. can all be lost if you cross a certain income threshold. Hence why a lot of people prefer being paid in cash, it's easier to hide the income and retain benefits (not to mention avoid income taxes).
TheDarkMusician · 1 points · Posted at 20:50:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Wait, so if you're in the highest tax bracket, your income is broken into chunks and each are taxed at different rates?
FrankenBerryGxM · 1 points · Posted at 20:51:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes
radome9 · 1 points · Posted at 20:52:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Except once, in Sweden. Due to an oversight in the tax law the highest tax bracket had a tax rate over 100%. The author of Pippi Longstocking managed to hit this bracket and there was a bit of an outcry.
Runaway_5 · 1 points · Posted at 21:26:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
huh, TIL. Thanks
Shaqobe328 · 1 points · Posted at 03:07:17 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
HOLY SHIT. Thank you so much. I finally understand tax brackets!
Dex22er · 1 points · Posted at 07:33:31 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Technically untrue in the UK
SpecialX · 1 points · Posted at 12:04:44 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
It angers me that people are able to misinterpret this in the first place.
WholelottaLuv · 1 points · Posted at 15:40:59 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Still a good problem to have. You can buy things (mortgaged) to help you save on taxes or at least lower your effective rate. You can save more in IRAs, etc. And, you're helping pay for all the politicians you keep voting in.
Laborismoney · 1 points · Posted at 18:31:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Simply untrue. Google "welfare cliff".
totallyria23 · 78 points · Posted at 15:46:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Someone with an opposing view can be intelligent and informed.
AverageMerica · 3 points · Posted at 06:54:06 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Aha! Checkmate athiests!
Aiognim · 0 points · Posted at 00:18:43 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
But not right!
readycent · 7892 points · Posted at 14:03:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you really think about most subjects, it is very difficult and even ignorant to separate it into columns of black and white. Politics, ethics, religious ideology, conflict, whatever. The world is complex and you have to accept that to really get to the truth of a matter.
Edit: a lot of good points sent my way! I just wanted to clarify that I'm not saying there cannot be a 'right' and 'wrong' in any given situation. I am, however, suggesting that too many people assume all matters can be easily organized into opinions that are only-right and only-wrong. There are tons of gray areas people just disregard in the pursuit of having the "right" opinion on something.
CPSismyhero · 2439 points · Posted at 15:16:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Also many people believe what they believe because of the people around them. Your belief on safety of nuclear power, global warming, public healthcare, Israel - Palestine, GMO food, vaccinations, gun control, religion etc are usually because of where you live and the wider culture around you NOT because you sat down with an open minded and no bias and looked at all the evidence to arrive at a conclusion.
You aren't smarter than someone who holds an incorrect view just BECAUSE you hold a correct one.
Psychology has shown we make judgement calls and then back them up with evidence that supports us.
beepbloopbloop · 852 points · Posted at 15:37:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I disagree, after a couple hours of searching I found a website that says I make decisions based on my own logical thought.
ps3o-k · 496 points · Posted at 16:33:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I like you. I was looking for a comment that I would agree with and not challenge me in any way.
PFCDoofles · 8 points · Posted at 17:03:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Came here to say this?
illadvisedinertia · 7 points · Posted at 17:36:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Let the circlejerk begin.
Baelgul · 5 points · Posted at 18:25:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Begin? Oh... well I guess I should just towel off then.
lars_h4 · 4 points · Posted at 19:16:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Let's make a community for us like-minded, correct people. Is /r/echochamber taken?
cleanforever · 2 points · Posted at 20:03:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
let's try reddit.com
inform880 · 1 points · Posted at 19:04:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Fucking hell
TML47 · 9 points · Posted at 17:54:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"how was I supposed to know Ultralord wasn't a founding father of the United States. That's what it says on the Ultralord website!" -Sheen
"Didn't you write the Ultralord website?" -Jimmy
"Oh right.. " -Sheen
UnderstandPhysics · 1 points · Posted at 21:02:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Source? /s
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 18:17:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You're not one of the 'many people' then.
[deleted] · 911 points · Posted at 15:38:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There was a thread here on ask Reddit about trashy things. There was a comment about how piercing a child's ears was terrible and it got 100s of upvotes. Some people responded about how it's completely normal in their cultures and gave their reasons and explained how no one had a problem with it. But typical redditors just tried to shout louder than everyone with their ethical argument as if it was objective fact. Like, I get your argument, and I get your ethics, but they aren't universal.
You can see it play out in numerous arguments online, this need to feel righteous and superior without a shred of self awareness and pretending that their idea about what is ethical or not is fact.
silentsandwich · 230 points · Posted at 16:09:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, the logic is that if you pierce them young you as the parent can clean their ears and make sure there are no infection or problems.
My sister had 2 infected piercings when she was a preteen because she wasn't taking care of them properly (because preteens are stupid).
If you pierce your kids ears young and they grow up not liking earrings they don't have to wear them, you are saving your kids a lot of trouble by getting out of the way early though.
GriffsWorkComputer · 105 points · Posted at 16:41:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I for one will wait until my daughter is old enough to make that decision
Stef-fa-fa · 34 points · Posted at 17:02:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I know people who got their ears pierced as kids and don't wear earrings now - they just let them close up, no harm done.
GetItTogether · 34 points · Posted at 17:22:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sometimes the holes never close up. Mine never did.
bipnoodooshup · 3 points · Posted at 18:42:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Go on...
GetItTogether · 1 points · Posted at 19:13:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oh, you.
_refugee_ · -30 points · Posted at 17:39:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Wow and I bet that was just terrible for you
GetItTogether · 23 points · Posted at 17:50:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Never said it was? I got my ears pierced when I was 7 and asked for them. I don't regret getting them pierced I'm just saying you're wrong to say they'll always close up.
wolfgirlnaya · 16 points · Posted at 18:07:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It can be annoying. I had mine reopened because only the backs closed and they kept collecting gunk and pus.
There's no harm in waiting, so why bother piercing a kid?
rosatter · 3 points · Posted at 19:08:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This! It's gross and can be painful if I don't take extra care of my piercing holes, which I never asked for in the first place. I haven't worn earrings since I was old enough for my mother to stop forcing me to and still I have to care for the holes.It's been 15 years.
HerrApa · 4 points · Posted at 18:47:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Or parents could like stop forcing their bodyideals on their children.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:53:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
YES! LET THE HATE RUN THROUGH YOU!!!
SuperSocrates · 1 points · Posted at 22:25:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Where are you seeing hate in that comment?
_refugee_ · -4 points · Posted at 19:07:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
LOL I've lived through a lot of parent-forcing-their-body-ideals on me and let me tell you, ear piercing is about the most minor form of that shit ever. Try some anorexia instead next time
HerrApa · 1 points · Posted at 20:45:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So there exist something worse therefor we should not care about less awful things. I never said it was the worst possible thing.
Parents murder their children or force them in to slavelabour so anorexia aint that bad...../s
[deleted] · 23 points · Posted at 17:39:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm 28 and still have a hole in my left ear from when it was pierced in 4th grade, I haven't worn an earing since I was 16 but it's still there.
Stef-fa-fa · 5 points · Posted at 17:45:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Still, does it inhibit your daily life in any meaningful way? Even if it didn't close, it's not like it's hurting anything by existing. People seem to be treating this like FGM, but in this instance it's rather harmless. You could argue the ethics of it, which I'm not really debating, but just from a convenience vs complication standpoint this is a relative non-issue.
Dorothy_is_Dead · 25 points · Posted at 18:05:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't wear earrings anymore, but mine get infected all the time :( It's baloney I have to like clean them with special ear cleaning stuff and can't just "ignore" them. If I'd had a choice they never would have been pierced in the first place.
Stef-fa-fa · 18 points · Posted at 18:17:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oh shit really? That sucks :(
This is what I was fishing for though, a legitimate reason why this could be problematic. Is this something that a lot of people experience getting them done as a child? I'd never heard of continuing to get infections from piercing after removing the piercings themselves.
Dorothy_is_Dead · 4 points · Posted at 18:28:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I've had it suggested to me the big issue is that my mom had it pierced with a gun at the mall, so it doesn't heal the same way a needle piercing does. The needle piercing takes out a hole of the lobe, whereas the gun just kind of jabs the earring through. So my friend suggested dirt is probably getting caught in the ear hole in a way it wouldn't if it had been pierced with a needle, and suggested I get them re-pierced with a needle to see if it helps.
Considering doing it but not thrilled. But definitely worth a shot if it means I could take care of them until they heal and ignore them.
Also, I do have very sensitive skin in general.
TheGreatQuillow · 1 points · Posted at 18:45:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If they are constantly becoming infected (and you have insurance), have you considered seeing a general surgeon to have them surgically closed? I know this may seem extreme, but I had a cyst in one piercing as a teen that kept getting infected. I had the cyst removed and the hole sutured shut as an in-office procedure. Because it was sutured by a professional, and I took care of the site, it closed well and did not continue to get infected. I eventually chose to re-pierce the ear and haven't had any problems with it since.
It may be worth it. And because constant recurring infections, insurance may cover it.
Good luck!
rosatter · 2 points · Posted at 19:11:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, it's been 15 years since I've worn ear rings and I have partially closed holes. They collect dead skin cells and sweat and if I'm not extra careful cleaning then, they get infected. It's not the most awful thing but shit, acting like it's just a hole that changes nothing is ignorant.
roseprints · 1 points · Posted at 18:25:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Got my ears pierced as an infant. Infections are never a problem, I think it just depends on the person.
scriggled · 2 points · Posted at 19:13:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm not sure if this will help, but did it ever heal properly? I had mine pierced young but got infected really bad so I just let them close up, turns out I'm allergic to some metals. The next time I got them pierced I wore gold or surgical steel. Then after getting through that healing period I haven't had any more problems not wearing earrings. They do still get irritated when I do wear them though so I just try not to leave them in so long.
[deleted] · 15 points · Posted at 17:54:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
They all feel that it is affecting their life. Doesn't matter if it really is. The mind works like that; focuses on perceived lack. This is the type of thing where you wish you didnt care about when you wake up paralyzed from the neck down. Ok that's dramatic, but the point I'm trying to make is that as long as people continue to not look at the big picture of their life and fighting against everything they think is bad the real big things, like corporations controlling everything and whatnot get worse. It's the perfect example of giving the little people stupid shit to worry about so they don't notice what's really going on.
The main point is that it is all subjective. Trying to make everyone conform is a monumental waste on energy that could be devoted to so much more. Seeing people outraged on the internet about such things is just amazing.
Stef-fa-fa · 3 points · Posted at 17:57:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Is anyone who had their ears pierced as a kid actually complaining though? I understand the lack of bodily autonomy as a child is problematic in general terms, but this does seem to be a bit much in terms of policing what you can and can't do with your own kids.
Hell, I'd have preferred if I had mine done as an infant. I got mine pierced as an adult and keeping them clean and avoiding sleeping on them during the healing process was a pain in the ass, it would have been so much easier if that was all done before I could even remember it.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:24:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
We're in complete agreement. Having an authoritarian force determining what choices you can or can't make it insane because the whims of the people are fickle and judgments are subjective. There are seriously people who believe that baby formula should be prescription because all babies deserve breast milk. Every few decades these types of public opinions change.
[deleted] · 4 points · Posted at 18:51:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No I really don't care, I don't care that I'm circumsized either but who am I to say it should be allowed? But somebody else might care and if even one person wishes they weren't we shouldn't allow parents to make those decisions.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:10:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
We let parents make far worse decisions than those. But I agree with no circumcision anyway. No piercing? Meh.. I personally wouldn't do it, but go nuts. If you're allowed to put your little kid in ballerina shoes and mess up their feet for life a little poke through their ears doesn't seem so bad.
ConstantJelly · 9 points · Posted at 17:35:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How long has it been for them? Mine still get infected every few months and mine was done when I was three.
EnergyAnalystWannabe · 1 points · Posted at 19:21:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Maybe look into allergies? I thought I was getting recurrent infections but I was actually allergic to the (gold-plated) silver.
ConstantJelly · 1 points · Posted at 21:18:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I might look into that actually.
2FLY2TRY · 2 points · Posted at 20:00:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My ears were pierced as an infant but my parents stopped putting earrings on me when I was 2 or so. I can't actually remember having holes in my ears but I still have light scars on my earlobes where they healed up. They feel like nothing more than day old mosquito bites, except with no itchiness. So really, no harm done (but sometimes I'm able to use them as a talking point since nothing else about me is interesting).
wolfgirlnaya · 2 points · Posted at 18:03:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I mean, you make a good point. I think I'm going to get my baby 3 piercings in each ear. No harm in having holes, right?
Oh wait, that's not "normal," so that makes it not okay.
Babies are humans, and they will become adults who think and make decisions on their own. If they want piercings then, that's up to them, but while they're children, it's parents' responsibilities to ensure they stay as intact and healthy as possible to enable that kind of independent decision-making.
As someone who had their ears pierced as a kid and loves piercings now, I wish my folks had let me decide it on my own as an adult. Not everyone agrees with me, but that's the point. It's a permanent body mod, even if you let it close up. Let the kid make the decision when they're an adult.
silentsandwich · 10 points · Posted at 17:02:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How old is old enough to make permanent modifications to your body?
GriffsWorkComputer · 3 points · Posted at 17:19:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
old enough to communicate maybe but I think I'd explain to them the risks I guess.
vivacious_jon · 2 points · Posted at 17:08:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ear holes arent permanent.
[deleted] · 27 points · Posted at 17:15:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
bemybaegel · 12 points · Posted at 17:19:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It’s a hollow needle, true, but it works more like a very tiny scalpel. It just cuts a slit in the tissue, that heals in a round shape around the post of the jewellery. However it’s done, though, piercing very young children is an issue for many reasons - one not addressed here is that the ears grow a lot through the beginning stages of life and a piercing placed well initially might look absolutely horrendous after a few years.
Paranitis · 9 points · Posted at 17:32:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I totally forgot that kids grow and change. I definitely should NOT have given my kids those tattoos they wanted...
SpringCleanMyLife · 6 points · Posted at 17:36:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Really depends. As a teen I pierced my entire ear from lobe to cartilage with a hollow point needle. I wore earrings in every hole for probably 5-7 years but now haven't worn any earrings in over a decade. I just checked and about half of them are totally closed up and the other half the earring slid through with no resistance.
Grantavius_II · 6 points · Posted at 17:20:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm sorry but you're wrong that speckle of tissue will regenerate.
PaulTheMerc · 9 points · Posted at 18:00:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
usually, not always.
ConstantJelly · 9 points · Posted at 17:33:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Wish mine had, been 21 years and they're still not healed.
XANphoenix · 6 points · Posted at 17:37:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
20 years here, haven't worn anything in them in 16 years, still not even closed.
dongasaurus · 0 points · Posted at 18:02:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My ear is still open, but in no way does it affect my life at all, it's a barely visible hole in my earlobe.
ConstantJelly · 1 points · Posted at 18:25:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Mine are visible and get infected regularly, no idea why. It only happened when I stopped wearing an earring about fifteen years ago.
Plusisposminusisneg · 2 points · Posted at 20:15:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My 65 year old dad drunkenly got a piercing at 20 and still has a notisible hole today.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 17:19:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
wolfgirlnaya · 9 points · Posted at 18:09:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This isn't universal. Well-healed piercings tend to never fully disappear. They may close, but they leave a dimple or indent. Some people's ears will never close once you get past 8g, and some close just fine at 0g.
It all depends on the person. Similarly, a person's preference differs from that of others', so it's best to just let them decide when they're older.
MVWORK · 4 points · Posted at 18:13:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I got pierced with 14g and they haven't closed. Standard is 16g (one size difference).
Noli420 · 5 points · Posted at 17:32:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I would as well, but for different reasons than the normal. Using a gun at the mall is dangerous and unsterile, and those are the only places I have seen that will do it before 16, even with a parent present
coconut-sprinkles · 6 points · Posted at 17:41:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not always, mine were pierced by the pediatrician when I was a toddler.
ReallyForeverAlone · 2 points · Posted at 19:33:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And that's well within your prerogative. The issue arises when other people on Reddit try to push their beliefs on to others. And it happens a lot.
GiantSquidd · 2 points · Posted at 19:07:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I work in a tattoo shop, and this is how we operate. You don't get your kid's ears peirced when you want them pierced, we wait until the kid can ask for him/herself.
Imagine if tattooed babies were culturally normal. Jesus.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:32:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's nicely black/white. What happens if your daughter asks to have her ears pierced when she's 3?
GriffsWorkComputer · 2 points · Posted at 17:35:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Idk guess I'll cross that bridge when I get to it, I reread my comment and I'm suprised no ones got on my case "what if your son wanted his ears pierced?"
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 17:49:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Eih. It honestly sounds like you just default to that stance to please the Reddit community.
I don't have kids, but have you ever heard of the expression that it's easier to raise a child when you're not a parent?
sprouting_broccoli · 5 points · Posted at 18:51:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sounds a bit unfair to the guy. The obvious response (as I see it) is that a 3 year old can't make decisions that will permanently affect them and weigh up the consequences properly. What age is appropriate? Well I don't particularly think kids are well placed to choose school subjects that will affect their future and close off certain doors at 13/14 but they can. I see ear piercing as something that is less severely affecting than that (and given decreasing age of sexual activity you have to rely on their judgement earlier and earlier), so that might be a good age to draw the line.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:01:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Maybe a little unfair, but I think people are stripping the actual action from all context whatsoever to push an agenda.
We're talking about piercing ears, and not even the edgy stuff, and people are talking about it like it's circumcision.
I mean, I agree with the general idea of not doing permanent changes to your kid before they can even consent... but piercing ears? Are you kidding me?
sprouting_broccoli · 1 points · Posted at 21:04:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You don't know what sort of consequences it will have in their life and making it permanent means they have no say over the matter. Two things:
1) I don't think I should be able to do it to my kids. By that I mean I don't think I should change something about their physicality permanently and that's a principle I apply to my parenting. Since it's a principle I don't think I should make exceptions because it makes the principle worthless. I don't want to have to argue extra long about the prospective issues with a tiny tattoo on their ankle because I let them have their ear pierced followed by a bigger tattoo on their arm just because I didn't draw the line firmly in the sand. That's where I've drawn the line and it makes it a lot easier to argue the point later down the line.
2) I know that at some point my kids might decide they don't like me. There's almost an inevitability to this as they become teenagers and rebel against authority, but I don't want to make any decision that might make them any more resentful of me if I don't see it as necessary. Sure, sometimes I might fuck up, but this is one of the easy calls for me in this regard because it's easy to draw that line.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 22:24:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Drawing big thick lines in the sand is never a good idea.
sprouting_broccoli · 1 points · Posted at 00:27:02 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
As a parent you do it all the time.
E.g. Regardless of the situation my 4yo isn't allowed to play with the jobs of the oven, or cross the road on his own, neither of them are allowed to get in a stranger's car, I'm not going to teach them a prescribed religion or force them to adopt my political views, I won't ever refuse to talk to them about something if they ask a question, and so on.
It's nice to think that every situation is malleable but in pretty much every situation in life we draw a red line somewhere.
Regardless, I didn't really draw a red line. I suggested a specific age range where I think they're adult enough to make a decision for themselves. If they are mature enough earlier then that's something that really is flexible, but I have my reasons (which I think I stated fairly clearly). If it's clear that they have a grasp of what the concept of permanent body alteration is then sure, we can chat about it and I might say "fine, go ahead", but I don't see any reason to just roll over and let them do something on a whim when 90% of their decisions change within two hours.
hcgator · 1 points · Posted at 18:33:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I will wait until my son is old enough to make that decision as well.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 18:19:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
u are wronge
Elliott2 · -3 points · Posted at 17:33:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Good for you? Lol
theWhyvern · 16 points · Posted at 17:23:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Piercings and tatoos are permanent changes to the body, though.
Same reason I don't have piercings or tats. I know I'm likely to change as I keep growing and maturing, so I don't want: "420Yolo" tatted on my back when I'm 37 now and suspect the Yolo crowd died out living their one life only once and ending it throughout whatever daredeviling they did.
Turdlock · 13 points · Posted at 17:49:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There's a difference between 420yolo, and a couple of small studs in the lobe of your ears.
Plus, I'm 27 and have had a few other piercings(lip, navel), all of which I have taken out and went on with my life with no one ever noticing.
hazelnutclutch · 7 points · Posted at 19:59:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
They're not permanent though... also great unrelated straw man.
theWhyvern · 1 points · Posted at 20:52:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm not even sure you can totally be rid of tats with modern technology.
Piercings aren't too obvious without a piece in them, but I'm not sure you can restore that puncture in your skin.
[deleted] · 12 points · Posted at 16:40:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Sierra_Oscar_Lima · 56 points · Posted at 16:45:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Nothing that you do when you're 3 is your choice, aside from shoving peanut butter sandwiches in the VCR, that was totally your idea, you idiot.
TheGraveHammer · 12 points · Posted at 16:58:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But it was HUNGRY MOM!
Sierra_Oscar_Lima · 2 points · Posted at 18:57:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Denis Leary on that: https://youtu.be/qtX89azXWKw?t=394
VikingTeddy · 4 points · Posted at 17:12:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No reason to be rude. You can have plenty of choices over your life at that point. Not necessarily good choices, but you can.
Good parents allow a lot of self expression and experimentation, as long as it is safe of course. A child can make a decision to have their ears pierced, it doesn't matter that the reason behind it might be shallow.
I knew a few kids like this. They picked out their clothes, their nick name, vacation spot, hairstyle and yes, ear piercing. It's a cultural thing. And it's not like they are allowed to harm themselves physically or mentally.
Sierra_Oscar_Lima · 2 points · Posted at 18:09:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm kidding dude. I mean that the choice was offered, you didn't get in the car and go get it done yourself.
HoneymoonMassacre · 14 points · Posted at 16:54:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I was 5 when I had mine done and I completely remember it being my choice. My mom never pushed for me to get it done and asked me several times if I was sure. I had been begging to get them done.
After, I had a lot of infections from picking at them (I sometimes still have problems with them). But I'm glad I had it done then. Overall perfect 5/7. No regrats. Would pierce again.
iTzSoFrozen · 3 points · Posted at 17:07:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I can't argue that you wanted it or not, but I question the ability of a 3-5 year old to fully judge the impact of something like that. Are their brains developed to the point where they can responsibly make that decision?
MaIakai · 13 points · Posted at 17:14:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No they can't forsee the possible outcomes. But giving them a choice is a good thing. There are a whole myrid of positive benefits on this. You want to continually provide children options to teach cause and effect.
HoneymoonMassacre · 3 points · Posted at 18:36:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In addition to wanting piercings at 5, I was also born with a large birthmark/mole over my eyebrow. My parents were going to have it removed for cosmetic reasons before I started school. I did not want them to do this at that time. I didn't think there was anything wrong with me.
Turned out that the mole started changing colors, they thought it was cancerous, and that needed to be removed when I was 5 for those medical reasons. I had to be put under. I still remember how scared I was.
That also turned out to be a perfect 5/7. I'm so completely grateful that that was done when I was a kid because I'd be too afraid as an adult.
So, I guess, yeah kids should be allowed to have choices and make their own decisions for certain things (with in the scope of parental/guardian supervision). And parents should also be able to determine what is best for their children at the time. It isn't a black and white issue where at a certain age you magically have the ability to take responsibility for your actions. It's something that needs to be taught and that kids need to learn. They learn by making decisions (and receiving consequences if applicable).
Maybe not every 3-5 year old should get piercings but there are certainly some where getting that done is completely fine.
iTzSoFrozen · 1 points · Posted at 23:15:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Let's take it a step deeper. What about babies? 1 year olds.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:36:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I would agree for other decisions but getting your ears pierced is so inconsequential I don't get why this argument even exists. I mean... if you don't like it later on, just don't wear earrings and the hole will close up eventually.
iTzSoFrozen · 1 points · Posted at 23:17:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think there is this cultural thing around physical alterations that our society views as a big deal. Though I understand and concede to your point that it's not permanent
ConstantJelly · 2 points · Posted at 17:36:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How about we don't punch holes in children unless medically needed?
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:39:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I remember when I was four I begged my parents to let me get my ears pierced because I wanted to wear pretty earrings. I don't see the harm in that? I can maybe see people objecting to infants getting piercings, but even then I don't think it's anything consequential enough to permanently scar them if they turn out to not like it.
ConstantJelly · 1 points · Posted at 21:14:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What's wrong with clip-ons? Because you could say the same for a child havig a lip or nose piercing at the same age. And from personal experience it gave me a severe phobia of needles, same with some friends.
wtf-m8 · 0 points · Posted at 18:29:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't really understand that "logic", as parents are still responsible for the well-being of their children until they are adults. Your parents not taking care of your sister's health is an example of nothing but poor parenting.
This has nothing to do with my views on piercing children. I'm not a parent so I am indifferent as far as that goes, as long as they're not gauging their ears or something extreme like that.
HerrApa · -3 points · Posted at 18:44:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Parents should not get to decide something like that, you could nake rhe same argument about a tatoo, circumcision or other bodymodifications. The person would suffer less if you split their tongue as a infant but should someone else realy decide that for them? It's only accepted since you see it as normal.
heili · 10 points · Posted at 18:07:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And people call you a fucking lunatic and an anti-Semite if you say cutting off part of an infant's penis isn't OK.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:39:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You're allowed to think that, absolutely. The point is realizing that your opinions are subjective. Trying to ban something that billions of people worldwide do is just not a good idea for a variety of reasons. It surprises me that it is presented as a progressive argument, given that societies have been banning circumcision for thousands of years from the Greeks to the Soviet Union and the results were always negative.
As for the anti-Semite thing, you might not be aware of this, but the loudest anti-circumcision people are anti-Semites. Clearly, there are many people who are not and hold those views, but considering the fact that Jews make up less than 1% of the people who circumcise yet the anti-circumcision activists focus on Jews a lot more.
Phyltre · 1 points · Posted at 00:29:05 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I was circumcised and wish I wasn't. What do?
heili · 1 points · Posted at 00:59:24 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you were a girl, people would feel bad for you and say that such a barbaric practice be ended and call whoever did it to you monsters.
But I take it you're a man, so in that case they'll probably just insult you and call you a nutter who needs to get over it because it's no big deal and didn't harm you at all.
heili · 1 points · Posted at 00:56:52 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I take issue with infant genital cutting because an infant doesn't get a say inwhether a normal, healthy part of their body is removed and scarred without any immediate medical need.
Further, I don't think anyone has a right to impose their religion, whether it's a Jew, Muslim, Hindu, Christian, Scientologist, Jehovah's Witness, or anyone else to the extent that it causes permanent physical alteration of the body of a person who can't consent to that. If you think that's anti-Semitic, I suggest you think very hard about where your right to swing your fist ends.
[deleted] · 20 points · Posted at 17:14:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My 7 y/o daughter does not have her ears pierced. Neither is she Christened or Baptized. These are decisions she can make as an informed adult and not things I'm going to trust upon her.
[deleted] · 19 points · Posted at 17:20:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's good for you. I understand your reasoning and can respect that. As long as you're aware that the conclusions you came to are not unanimous among other parents nor are they objective fact.
[deleted] · -2 points · Posted at 17:40:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Absolutely. One of the girls in my daughter's class at school has her ears pierced. She's quite a tall and mature looking girl anyway and I think this only heightens that fact but that does not condemn them as bad parents or trash.
Personally I'm not going to judge someone's class by whether their child has its ears pierced. It's not a look I like or would choose but to each their own.
Parents who openly use foul language in front of the young children though... I'm afraid I'm judging you!
Gameofboners666 · 1 points · Posted at 18:57:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I understand where you are coming from but sorry, who are you to judge an adult cursing in front of their children? You dont know the person or their children.
Davecantdothat · 1 points · Posted at 19:03:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Who are you telling her who to judge in the privacy of her mind? As long as she doesn't act on it, let her judge away!
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:47:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Who are you to tell to tell me not to tell them what I think!!!!? ;P
Oh and I am a guy!
Davecantdothat · 1 points · Posted at 19:48:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Idk why I assumed! Haha But fair.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:50:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I wouldn't say anything to someone for swearing at their child but I think as a parent you've kind of failed if you have to resort to that.
Gameofboners666 · 2 points · Posted at 20:11:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I agree, but we were on the subject of not judging parents for piercings their ears... And then they just needed to add that they DO judge however for cursing. Felt it was unnecessary and also ive met too many pleasant children that hear their parents cursing and yell at them for it lol. Just feel like if youre gonna come on here and brag about not judging... Then dont judge...
Edit: sp
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:50:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:52:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think that's great.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:52:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think that's great and says a lot about your parents.
Zyrlex · 1 points · Posted at 20:25:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Especially if they truly believe unbaptized children will be tortured for eternity if they die. The ethics gets tricky if to the best of their knowledge they are doing the wrong thing. Is a good thing still good if you think you're doing something bad? Are you acting with good intentions if you believe the opposite? Did I take a sleeping pill? I went for a glass of water and I did consider taking one, did I?
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:26:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You did. Or did you?
Maenad_Dryad · 3 points · Posted at 18:58:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I had mine pierced as a toddler and I don't really see much of an issue of it unless you're getting it done at a mall with those piercing guns. They're not sanitary. I had all mine done with a gun and one of them (I got a second set as a teenager) got infected. I don't remember if my baby ones got infected, but I can't use my second set anymore because they burn and itch if I put any kind of jewelry in them.
Anyway, I digress- going to a professional tattoo and piercing studio to get it done with a needle by someone with training is best, no matter how old your little one is!
ChickenJesus · 42 points · Posted at 16:03:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In what world is piercing a kids ears trashy?? Almost every little girl I know has her ears pierced
Filbert_Turtle · 66 points · Posted at 16:14:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I personally dont think it is trashy but I think it is wrong to pierce anyone ears without their consent.
If the child is old enough to say they want it and is actually able to hold that belief and understand it, than pierce away.
However, there are many people who get their infant children's ear pierced, which to me seems wrong since an infant cant consent and doesnt understand why you are jabbing a needle through their flesh.
People might think it is trashy to peirce your childs ears because you are forcing your standard of beauty on them, and treating your child like an accessory or property rather than a person.
adventurousslut · 9 points · Posted at 17:22:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I didn't realize so many people expected me to get my baby's ears pierced until I got bombarded with questions as to why I haven't. Honestly, just thinking of it makes me uncomfortable and I'd rather not get it done until she tells me she wants it done. I didn't get mine until I was 7 and it was my choice. I don't even like having my daughter deal with the quick pain of her vaccinations, which are 100% necessary to me, so I don't really want to subject her to another (however little and quick it is) round of pain with unnecessary earrings. Let her be a baby for a while, and when she wants earrings and can be responsible enough, she will get them!
TheNargrath · 20 points · Posted at 16:24:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
We waited until our girl decided that she was ready (at age 7), and had them done then. No skin off our nose to wait a bit on it, and she got the feeling of pride to make a "grown up decision."
Most of our parenting friends have fallen into the same pattern. Granted, we're mostly 30+, white, middle-class-ish, urban.
PM_ME_HKT_PUFFIES · 11 points · Posted at 17:40:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think indoctrinating young children with religion should be prevented until the age of 18 where they can make reasoned decisions and choices.
That's my preference but I understand that the majority of the planet think otherwise so I don't tend to shout about it.
sleepydon · 6 points · Posted at 18:37:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Personally I disagree just because I think it's better to expose kids to the society in which they live in. In my opinion it's much better to teach them to think critically and learn to form their own opinions.
PM_ME_HKT_PUFFIES · -2 points · Posted at 20:20:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you're teaching a child your religion, or putting them into a church/temple/worship situation, you're hardly teaching them to think critically.
It's exactly the reason religious communities start the kids young.
sleepydon · 2 points · Posted at 22:45:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Really? That's funny because I grew up going to church every week up until I was a teenager. I would hardly call myself a religious person today. Whether you realize it or not, in every society, people of all ages are bombarded with propaganda or ideals pertaining to just about anything. Whether it's a news medium pandering politics, a school system teaching a subjective curriculum, a clever ad influencing you to buy a product, or friend chatting about whatever. That's just a few things that impact the way people think, feel, and act. From my perspective popular media has a bigger impact on kids promoting narcissism and consumerism than any religion does in the US.
PrimeIntellect · 5 points · Posted at 18:30:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I mean, piercing a kids ears is probably one of the least important ways that you alter a kids life that has a huge impact. I've never thought twice about doing that. However, raising a healthy child is something that seems to be overlooked. An overweight child is one of the saddest and most infuriating things imaginable to me, i want to punch the parents in the face. It will leave them with physical and mental problems for quite possibly their entire lives.
Oniknight · 7 points · Posted at 17:19:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
One of the possible medical side effects is that piercing a baby's ears can lead to metal allergies. I also prefer a child who consents to a non essential form of body modification.
heili · 2 points · Posted at 18:08:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How do you feel about infant circumcision?
meatduck12 · -2 points · Posted at 17:39:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Slightly unethical maybe, and only then by the slightest bit, definitely not "trashy".
[deleted] · 12 points · Posted at 16:17:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The argument was about consent. Then of course they brought up circumcision and how anything done to a child's body without their consent is wrong. People tried explaining their cultural reasons, health reasons and they were shouted down. Some people chimed in to say they were perfectly fine with their ears having been pierced and were happy their parents did it when they couldn't remember. Then two people came in and were practically crying over how thy hate that their parents had their ears pierced and blah blah.
I mean, I get the argument but that particular ethical argument is nowhere universal, anymore than it being wrong to kill animals for food. People have disagreeing with their parents is not new, and most don't care but it's the loud minority want to tell everyone what to do because of their particular feelings.
realtimesound · 16 points · Posted at 16:11:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
in the white 20 something year old average redditors world
ibuyhorses · 6 points · Posted at 16:22:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Body modification without consent is wrong. Just because some cultures do it doesn't make it right.
[deleted] · 16 points · Posted at 16:29:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Wrong to you. I don't see what is so hard to understand about objective vs subjective. It's so simple. Just set your ego aside for a bit and try to understand that other people have their reasons and your reasons aren't more valid or right because they are yours. Sure, murder is objectively wrong across cultures. Sending someone to jail over a crime they never committed is wrong across cultures. Basic ideas like wanting to be alive are no brainers. The idea that you need to ask your kids permission for everything is definitely subjective.
JamEngulfer221 · -1 points · Posted at 17:50:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In some cultures, pedophilia is accepted. Does that mean that when anyone says it's bad, we should really stand back and think "well, some people do it, so it can't be objectively wrong"?.
Just because some cultures do something, it doesn't make it something we should be open minded about. People and cultures can be wrong about things. People can do objectively wrong things without realising it. Western culture used to burn and hang people for being witches, when magic doesn't even exist. That was objectively wrong. Why can't other cultures do wrong things, or are they in some sort of protected class where everything they do is alright?
dugant195 · -1 points · Posted at 18:34:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"Right" and "wrong" cannot be objective.....you need to read a dictionary
GetOutOfBox · 2 points · Posted at 19:40:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So can you just say that you don't believe pedophilia is wrong if it is of another culture? Because that's basically what you are arguing here.
You are literally saying that we cannot condemn it because "morals are subjective", which is stupid because morals can be objective. You can use logic and reason to form a moral system without subjective assertion.
Case in point, pedophilia is objectively wrong, because it is harmful to child psychosocial development, because of the disproportionate power balance between a child and adult, because of their inability to safely bear children, and finally because children are neither experienced or developed enough to give informed consent (that is, to fully understand the magnitude and/or specifics of their choices).
These are objective reasons why is wrong. Subjective reasons would be explanations like "Because God says it's wrong.", "Because it's disgusting", etc. They are subjective because they are based on personal feeling/inclination, not rational reasoning.
dugant195 · -1 points · Posted at 19:48:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Uhmm saying by definition pedophilia isn't objectively wrong is not the same thing as saying you don't believe pedophilia is wrong. You can condemn things that aren't objectively wrong.
Which you ignorantly don't seem to understand.
Being harmful to child psycho social development, not objectively true. Often true. Not always. Plenty of cases where people turn out just fine. Thus your point is literally wrong.
Disproportionate power balance between a child and adult, an assumption. Not objective
Inability to safely bear children. Irrelevant.
Not being able to give informed consent. A subjective opinion. Informed Consent is not a literal thing. It is something that is defined. Thus...not objective
Again try reading a dictionary. Your problem is you don't know what the words you are using mean. Rational reasoning is not the same thing as being objectively true. That where your argument falls apart. You don't even know what objective means.
ibuyhorses · 1 points · Posted at 22:46:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Cultural relativism is lazy, trash philosophy.
I reserve the right to condemn actions I deem immoral. Just because they occur in cultures other than my own does not excuse them from that.
Pedophilia, murder, rape, the stoning of homosexuals, Naziism, racism, sexism, all of these things can be acceptable in some culture, somewhere. They're still wrong.
Just because some people do it some where does not mean that they're acceptable, morally right, or shielded from criticism.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 22:53:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Good thing I wasn't advocating cultural relativism then. Comparing murder and rape to asking your child for permission for everything is ridiculous. The idea that millennial parenting choices are objectively as wrong as massive human suffering caused by pedophilia and murder is laughable.
StabbyPants · -2 points · Posted at 16:55:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
bodily autonomy is a pretty big deal. anyway, let's try this:
because murder is defined as unlawful killing - there is no way for it to be right, because then it's something else.
they are more valid and right because they come from a respect for people? some cultures are better than others, that should be clear
[deleted] · 5 points · Posted at 17:06:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes, murder is unlawful killing. I think I may be missing the point you were trying to make?
I said that people have their reasons that make sense to them, just because those reasons don't make sense to you does not make them wrong. You seem to think that you're being made to agree; you aren't. Just to have the humility to realize that your subjective ethics or ideas about what is moral are not universal. Not across cultures, and not even across people within the same culture.
There are people all around you whose reasons, beliefs, judgments are just as valid as yours are to you. They're subjective.
aslut_muggle · 2 points · Posted at 17:20:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Glad I was circumcised without consent.
realtimesound · -2 points · Posted at 16:39:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
where did anyone say without consent m8
[deleted] · 7 points · Posted at 16:44:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Because in many cultures babies get their ears pierced at birth.
BowtieCustomerRep · 5 points · Posted at 16:12:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well my friend, if you were paying any attention at all, this is exactly the kind of answer we are talking about. In what world? This world! Heck, there's probably 100 people within 10 miles of you right now who think that piercing a kid's ears is trashy! If you allow yourself to look at the world through the lens of a wider audience, you'll see and learn things you never thought were possible! Even if most of those things are wrong and stupid, at least you'll see why people believe in those things and how they came to those conclusions.
smitty153 · 0 points · Posted at 17:07:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think in the thread it was a baby boy.
ExtraSmooth · 0 points · Posted at 17:40:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Much of suburbia
nasty_nater · 6 points · Posted at 16:48:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I've gotten into political arguments here where the replies end up devolving into something like "Yes well Republicans are objectively bad" and "There is no argument, believing in ____ is actually wrong."
The echo chamber here is ridiculous.
Skill3rwhale · 2 points · Posted at 17:27:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Usually the argument is "Republiucans are objectively going against the will of the American people, and their own constituents," which often leads to hurting your non-wealthy voting base in some way.
Which is entirely true. All it takes is looking up the voting records.
EminemLovesGrapes · 2 points · Posted at 17:50:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well this IS Reddit.
Upvotes and downvotes = popular opinion galore.
It's just a byproduct of the system.
rincon213 · 2 points · Posted at 20:03:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Many reddit comments speak with a lot of confidence and and certainty, and many are completely wrong.
WhiteNateDogg · 3 points · Posted at 16:33:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Confirmed. Daughters got pierced ears at 3 months..not years, months. Wife Cuban, it is what it is.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 16:03:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
ibuyhorses · 0 points · Posted at 16:19:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Because plenty of people get their babies ears pierced and body modification without the individual's consent, which babies cannot give, is wrong
[deleted] · 9 points · Posted at 16:40:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The idea of asking your children for consent is definitely valid, more of a millennial parenting thing, but nowhere near universal. I have read about people who won't do the following because their children can't consent; cut baby's hair, pick up baby, kiss baby on cheek, vaccinate, etc
The list goes on and on. I understand where they're coming from and why that would be important to them, but maybe because my parents were more "old fashioned" I completely understand the opposite arguments. Plus a lot of millennial parenting ideas are not that great IMO. I think its normal for younger people to feel like they know everything, but time definitely teaches that life isn't black or white and there are many other perspectives and circumstances you've probably never considered.
It's also just not healthy mentally or emotionally to view life that way, you're bound to get angry a lot.
MoserLabs · 1 points · Posted at 17:14:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I read that thread, and it said "his ears". I assumed they meant having your 2 year old son with both ears pierced.
WarriorsCaoFanCavs · 1 points · Posted at 17:29:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Saved
EbowGB · 1 points · Posted at 18:09:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
FTFY.
Reddit is typed by people.
emikochan · 1 points · Posted at 18:09:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
upvotes = truth
deadleg22 · 1 points · Posted at 18:16:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Reddit wasn't always like this, over the last couple years it is more so.
cowboydirtydan · 1 points · Posted at 19:27:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Wanna see people flip? Talk about whether circumcision is ethical.
DominoNo- · 1 points · Posted at 19:31:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A great example is guns and bicycle helmets.
AP246 · 1 points · Posted at 19:40:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I agree in this case, but I also think it's perfectly ok to criticise parts of cultures, even those that aren't your own. That doesn't mean my opinion is objectively correct, but I should be allowed to say that parts of one culture are simply immoral in my view.
EvilStevilTheKenevil · 1 points · Posted at 20:28:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Methinks someone was composing a circumcision allegory.
[deleted] · 8 points · Posted at 16:32:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
To play devils advocate let's take vaccines. Now I have a bachelor's degree in biology but I certainly can't say I know vaccines well enough to state that their efficacy is something I understand fully in my own right, at some level I have to trust the scientific and medical consensus in the west. Similarly an anti-vaccine person doesn't have intricate enough knowledge of biomedical stuff to judge for themselves in most cases so they glean their perspective from other people. So in in way it's like you said, people absorb their world view from the people around them. I do believe however that it is inarguably better to put trust in the American medical association over an organic mom's blog and for the most part that's the separation. The ama is sometimes wrong of course but simply has far higher standards and holds itself more accountable than the average pro vaccine propagator.
manicmonkeys · 2 points · Posted at 17:52:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In my experience, the main thing with those who are against vaccines isn't that people believe the medical experts endorsing them are incompetent....it's that they don't believe their motives. For example, we have had the super carb-heavy food pyramid pushed on us for WAY too long, not because the government actually thought it was healthy, but because of extensive bribery/lobbying by the grain and cereal organizations.
It's more a matter of questioning motives, not competence. And since we know politicians have a nasty habit of making policy based on bribery.... shouting down anti-vaxxers may in fact serve to convince them that much more that it's a conspiracy. Unfortunately, I can't totally blame them.
turelure · 2 points · Posted at 19:50:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But that's the problem: motive doesn't matter. Many people who don't know a lot about science seem to think it's black magic and that no one can know if scientists are lying. But of course, the beauty of science is that you can check the data, you just need to educate yourself. And that's the whole issue: people are scientifically illiterate and the religious right and the Republicans in general want to make sure that it stays that way by feeding them bullshit propaganda and destroying public education.
manicmonkeys · 1 points · Posted at 19:57:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Motive SHOULDN'T matter.
When the organization pushing an idea is a hugely funded government, they can do things like selectively release only the studies that favor their position, even if they had to do the same study multiple times before they finally got one with the results they were seeking.
I'm sure if back when the food pyramid was released (and even today) if you asked for proof that a carb heavy diet is ideal, you could find numerous studies backing up that claim, even though in hindsight we can confidently say they were wrong. Motive absolutely is a relevant factor due to impact on which statistics are presented and how they're presented, even assuming nobody is outright lying.
turelure · 1 points · Posted at 20:52:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes, but again: it's not black magic. You can check. Other scientists also check the data. And that's also what happened with the food pyramid: lots of experts criticized it and said that it wasn't accurate. A scientifically literate person can look at the actual studies, compare them, reach a conclusion, that's why it's so important to teach kids stuff like that.
What you're doing is very popular among anti-science people (I'm not saying you're one of them): you pick an example where scientists got something wrong (even though it's more accurate to say that there wasn't a clear consensus) and use it to call into question the trustworthiness of science in general which is a seriously misguided approach. Yes, scientists make mistakes, yes, companies may want to fund studies that are to their advantage, but science as a method is self-correcting, mistakes are identified and thrown out. Companies like Exxon have spent millions of dollars funding studies to work against the growing consensus that global warming is man-made: many of these studies were easily debunked by other scientists. Did the motives of the Exxon-scientists matter? Not really. Sure, it makes you wary from the get-go, but in the end, only the facts matter: are their numbers correct? Can you reproduce the results of their experiments? Are there methodological issues? Motive only matters for people outside the scientific community, bloggers, so-called skeptics, conspiracy theorists, people who don't know enough to confront the actual science but feel that they're nonetheless entitled to have an opinion that's at least as valuable as the opinion of an expert. That's the current state of affairs: millions of ignorant people talking about shit they don't understand while complaining about elitist experts and liberal conspiracies.
manicmonkeys · 1 points · Posted at 22:13:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You seem to be glazing over how long it takes to get some things updated though (for example, the food pyramid). And that yes, the motives of the cereal and grain industry (and the politicians going along with it because of donations and god knows what else) where exactly what made it take so long to finally get it...well, not exactly fixed...but better at least.
No, I don't "throw out science in general". But I try to be understandable of people who don't believe everything the government tells them, especially if there's any decent possibility of motive being suspect. Also, the average citizen often does NOT have the time, knowledge, or resources needed to replicate a lot of the work that they'd have to in order to confirm or falsify something as vast and complex as global warming for example. To act otherwise is dishonest at best.
Chiakii · 6 points · Posted at 16:31:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Side note, I've known a few of people who ignored the "back them up with evidence that supports us" portion of the judgement call.
a few
AAA1374 · 4 points · Posted at 17:27:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
See, I set my beliefs on things based on a logical code of ethics irrespective of others. After I took philosophy in high school I realized where the inherent bias in my views was so I reevaluated my ideologies and came to my personal conclusions. I thought this was a perfectly normal and rational idea, then I started speaking to people and realized that it doesn't matter how I evaluate my opinion, since it's not theirs I'm apparently wrong.
nordinarylove · 3 points · Posted at 16:57:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There is good reason for this, humans succeed best as a social organism, like an ant colony, it would do no good if everyone was questioning every task with limited knowledge/experience background, thus all coming to different conclusions. Societies work best when there is a consistent worldview. Religions are successful because they understand this, religions build successful societies.
Fuinir · 3 points · Posted at 17:30:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And even if you were to try to do that, there's so much biased research and misinformation out there now that it's hard to discern the real evidence from it all. For science, lots of media outlets love to grab a research article showing some level of correlation, and construe it to be causation to the readers.
counterfitfake · 3 points · Posted at 17:48:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well I'm glad I live in the part of the world where people are right.
epichvs · 5 points · Posted at 18:43:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Really does sound silly when you put it like that, but it's exactly what we think subconsciously.
CPSismyhero · 1 points · Posted at 18:28:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Where do you live?
Bosknation · 3 points · Posted at 19:02:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Also People typically think that their perspective is the only way to look at an issue, and the chances that any two parties arguing over an issue have the same perspective are virtually zero, that's why arguments get nowhere, it should be a sharing of information and perspective to broaden each parties viewpoint, that's what wisdom is, intellect and wisdom aren't the same thing at all.
CPSismyhero · 0 points · Posted at 19:21:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
True but then you have issues such as anti-vax which are much different than issues like independence for Catalonia or Scotland. I will listen to your views of Quebec independence but I don't really have time for your views on why Jews are evil lol ;)
Bosknation · 1 points · Posted at 20:03:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You're right, some perspectives just aren't worth putting yourself in.
DoctorHolmes23 · 2 points · Posted at 16:45:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yup, confirmation bias is a killer.
Holiday_in_Asgard · 2 points · Posted at 17:40:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well, yes and no.
What really divides us are the values we have. Our values are determined by the people around us, and we judge certain issues based on how they hold to those values. If you live in an area where the people around you value individual autonomy over societal welfare and you are going to be more supportive of small government in general. The values come first, then the issues come along for you to judge against your values. This is also why some arguments are not worth having. If someone doesn't share your values, or a particular belief you have doesn't fit with another person's values, then there is no point in continuing the argument, at least on that level.
Also, although you are right (or at least I have heard other anecdotal evidence that supports your claim) that studies in psychology have shown that we make judgement calls and back them up with evidence to support ourselves later, that doesn't mean we can't attempt to be objective. First of all, knowing that we do that instinctively allows us to realize it and try to counteract that by keeping an open mind. Second of all, that judgement call is based on our values. If someone is newly exposed to the debate on the efficacy on price controls, they aren't going to just blindly pick a side. They will pick the side that, at face value, seems to align most with their values. The point is, our values are the real reason for our differing beliefs, not just where we live and the wider culture. Our culture and background certainly affect the values we have, but it is important to keep in mind its not a direct step.
CPSismyhero · 1 points · Posted at 18:30:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And that is why I wish randomly selected but demographically representative citizens were chosen to figure out issues instead of referendums.
Holiday_in_Asgard · 1 points · Posted at 12:43:14 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
No, because then they will just write policies that benefit themselves because they have no voters they need to please. I know that the current system is messed up, but the idea of voting is one of the things we got right (even if there are better ways of voting like single transferable vote).
BootyBootyFartFart · 2 points · Posted at 17:46:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Jonathan Haidt's social intuitionist model is a great place to start for anybody wanting to read the specific psychology behind this.
ifaptolatex · 2 points · Posted at 18:33:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Google "confirmation bias" for supporting literature behind this
CPSismyhero · 1 points · Posted at 19:06:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It tells me what I already believed therefore I must be right! Thanks google!
Brettholomeul · 2 points · Posted at 19:01:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I live my life based around some words some random person said on reddit once:
"Any argument is compelling if you only look at the facts that support it."
threelite · 2 points · Posted at 19:29:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No, but I do think I'm smarter than people who are certain that they're right but lack the evidence to support that much confidence. I'll at least hold less confidence in ideas that I have a lower understanding of (or less evidence for), and I'll remain open to new information.
CPSismyhero · 1 points · Posted at 19:49:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
True, to be honest its so complicated because different issues have different degrees of importance based on who you are and your situation. Honestly most aren't worth fighting.
PPOKEZ · 2 points · Posted at 19:44:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You say "usually" which is good. Because even though this thought process may prevail, there are still millions of people who chose the logical conclusion in the face of coercion and even threats of physical violence.
So, you know, that's still a significant force in directing the human experience and should hold more weight in what's considered normal.
[deleted] · 5 points · Posted at 17:20:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But nuclear power is a safe/effecient option.
CPSismyhero · 5 points · Posted at 18:31:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I agree dude but the point is the people who don't agree generally are against it because the people around them are.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:16:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I know that feeling. I know too many people who love coal because it's been in their family for years.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 19:35:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:14:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How, none of my fuckwad family or friends know shit about power. Half of them didn't pass highschool. I know because I did the research.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 23:31:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
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[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 03:52:18 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
And there are many more strong arguments for it, but here you are sharing your laymen's opinion. Now as far as self righteous goes, you're the one who wants to keep replying to a conversation with a stranger hours after the last word was said.
elfonite · 3 points · Posted at 17:52:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In philosophy that is called "self serving logic"
CPSismyhero · 1 points · Posted at 18:26:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Have you ever read moral tribes by joshua greene? If you like philosophy its a great book.
elfonite · 1 points · Posted at 14:23:41 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
I have not, thank you for recommending it. I'll add it to my "to-be-read list". BTW Plato and Platypus walk into a bar is another nice book to read on philosophy.
PigPen90 · 2 points · Posted at 16:35:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Unfortunately, non-biased information is hard to come by these days. Out of most of the people I know, I'm the least likely to take a hardline stance on something since I understand everything isn't so black and white. Problem is if I want to research something, I feel that mostly anything I come across is biased in favor of one or the other. May not be blatant, but statistics are an easy thing to manipulate.
USCplaya · 2 points · Posted at 17:56:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Vaccinations... There is no need for "belief" regarding vaccinations. They work, if you do not get your kids vaccinated, you are risking their lives. Period.
CPSismyhero · 1 points · Posted at 18:25:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah but the left has turned it into a 'political' issue and not a safety issue.
I agree, out of all the issues I listed above vaccinations are the top issue in terms of actually educating yourself about and taking positive action. If you disagree with me about gun laws or Israel or climate change it will have very little impact (assuming you are an average citizen) but vaccinations are something that can have a massive impact on your family.
The point I'm trying to make is smart people can be anti vax and dumb people can be pro vax. However it is an issue that can be figured out relatively easily and one that I sort of understand at the basic level because of high school science.
turelure · 0 points · Posted at 20:04:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The left has turned it into a political issue? That's complete bullshit. It's right-wingers that have turned science into a partisan issue: creationism, climate 'skeptics', anti-vaxxers, etc. Vaccines are not a political issue for the left, the left supports vaccines because they work. And really, you can't be that smart if you choose to ignore scientists and decide to put the lives of your children at risk because you're triggered by liberals. Maybe conservatives, who always like to go on about how leftists are special snowflakes, should just grow a thicker skin and stop putting other people in danger because their feelings were hurt. It really seems like their whole ideology is based on projection.
that_big_negro · 1 points · Posted at 20:26:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Anti-vaxxers largely come from the left. The most vaccine-compliant states are all deep red states. Mississippi, for example, has the highest rate of MMR, DTaP and Varicella vaccine compliance at >99.9%. This is one issue you can not peg on the Republicans.
turelure · 1 points · Posted at 21:12:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well, you're right that it's not a pure Republican issue, I was wrong there. But it isn't predominantly a Democrat problem either. I quote from the Pew Research Center:
Basically, it seems to be evenly spread between the two sides with the Republicans being slightly less supportive of mandatory vaccinations.
I also remember this article.
In most other fields however, it's clear that Republicans are far more anti-science than the Democrats. And my point that vaccination has not been politicized by the left still stands.
IcarusBen · 1 points · Posted at 17:12:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think Armoured Skeptic said it best. You're not wrong to doubt science you don't understand, but you jump the shark when you replace science you don't understand with bullshit.
michaelc4 · 1 points · Posted at 17:46:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So what you're saying is if I constantly disagree with people from the environment I was raised and live in, I must be doing it right? Checkmate, sucka's
RazzPitazz · 1 points · Posted at 17:49:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If we really want to dig in, an individuals labeled belief is actually a compromise to their personal beliefs. The labeled system holds the majority of their values but not all, and is simply easier to label oneself as part of that system than to explain everything you believe to anyone who asks.
CPSismyhero · 1 points · Posted at 18:27:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Or just lie or stay silent when you live in an area where people go against your beliefs.
PuddingT · 1 points · Posted at 17:53:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That is how I pick recipes for new things. I decide how I think it should be done then find a recipe to match.
shanulu · 1 points · Posted at 18:13:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Laws too, we use our own biases to determine what a written law means, especially now that they have gotten rather ambigious. We Americans can't even agree what the second amendment says.
dalesonofmazlek · 1 points · Posted at 18:16:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Then what makes the point of relativism credible and usable as an argument if your words are just a result of your environment? I logically cannot trust your statement as truthful if I am to actually believe your statement.
CPSismyhero · 1 points · Posted at 18:21:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You can take your time to investigate an issue with an open mind. The problem is that there are too many issues to do this, issues are very complex to the extent it would be impossible to understand every issue and that there are very intelligent people on both sides of every issue giving competing evidence and it is hard for your brain to view an issue objectively once you already have a bias.
Take climate change, people who read multiple pieces of evidence both for and against climate change generally come out more convinced of their viewpoint than before regardless of if they believed in it or not. In addition people who are educated who live in climate change denial areas are MORE LIKELY than uneducated people to believe in climate change.
dalesonofmazlek · 2 points · Posted at 18:43:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I agree that finding the truth is difficult because of inherent bias in the uneducated and confirmation bias in the educated, but I was just saying that there must be concrete truth and that that truth is discoverable. I may have misunderstood your initial comment and thought you were arguing relativism, I apologize if so.
CPSismyhero · 1 points · Posted at 19:05:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No, just that its too hard to do for EVERY subject and since going against the grain is annoying its easier to just flow with the river so to speak. Don't try to talk with Chinese people about China's 5,000 years of history for example ETC ETC ETC.
dalesonofmazlek · 1 points · Posted at 19:58:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Agreed. As people often live beyond their means, so they also speak beyond their means, and make no effort to dig deep for truth. People will do the opposite even and adopt a foreign culture/worldview/religion etc. as their own without giving equal consideration for what beliefs they were born into, invalidating them on the basis of their familiarity with particular involved domestic sins, without looking for foreign sin. And thus they gain the appearance of cultured intellectuals and are more accepted for their adopted ignorance than holding onto what is perceived as ignorance, when that may in fact be what is right and true.
roosterAK · 1 points · Posted at 18:22:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Basically, you would probably be a Nazi if you lived in Germany during the time of Hitler. Most people don't realize that.
Ews922 · 1 points · Posted at 18:30:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There is no authority on what is "correct" and "not correct".
kenriko · 1 points · Posted at 18:34:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Tell that to the Japanese. They've had very little luck with anything Nuclear.
CPSismyhero · 0 points · Posted at 19:06:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ignoring the nuclear bombs and focusing on nuclear power. How many Japanese have died because of air pollution linked to fossil fuels? EVERY power has some downside.
Harknis · 1 points · Posted at 18:56:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"Corn pone opinions" some might say.
Milleuros · 1 points · Posted at 19:12:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's the thing. I don't think anyone can pretend to not be biased.
xCosmicChaosx · 1 points · Posted at 19:15:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What in the case where your opinions on matters are vastly different from those of the wider culture around you, because you sat down and researched with an open mind?
CPSismyhero · 1 points · Posted at 19:19:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's good, just good luck trying to change others point of view.....
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:24:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
CPSismyhero · 1 points · Posted at 19:49:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Very interesting!
aarpcard · 1 points · Posted at 19:38:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well, if you can prove you are correct, then I would say you are smarter than the opposition.
Keep in mind intelligence and being smart are not the same thing. The dumb ones are those who believe what they believe without having proof - whether or not their belief on the topic is right or wrong.
CPSismyhero · 1 points · Posted at 20:04:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But everyone believes many things without proof. The problem is peoples natural reaction to defend their beliefs. Added to this we all have some belief that we don't want to debate.
For example I wouldn't want to debate with someone who believes gay people should be killed, although I might if they werent trying to convince me of their view but if they were trying to explain their view (mostly because I would try and explain my own). But I wouldnt be having an open and honest conversation, its unlikely anything they would say would change my view, its that deeply held.
aarpcard · 1 points · Posted at 20:41:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The problem I have with that point of view is that it's limiting.
I've discovered I've been wrong about a lot of things. A lot of things I believed but didn't know why. Some of those things were right, and some were wrong.
Some of the things I was wrong about I held onto very steadfastly, but without proof (and proof can both be physical and logical).
A rational person must admit that there is the possibility that they have the wrong viewpoint on any given topic. As such I'll gladly entertain a rational discussion from any opposing viewpoint - it will either prove my viewpoint wrong (which is a good thing - I've just gained new knowledge) or it will strengthen my current viewpoint (which is also a good thing as now I know it is much more likely that I am right.)
If someone wants to convince me that gays should be killed, then by all means, let them try to convince me.
They'll have to somehow show that the non aggression principle is irrational though, which would be impressive. But if they could do that, then I would need to reanalyze my viewpoint.
There's a lot of things that I 'believe' without having proof. But this is mainly due to me not having had the time to actually analyze and research them yet. Until then I avoid expressing my opinion on the matter, because even if I have the correct opinion, it very well could be based in irrationality.
casingrgrl16 · 1 points · Posted at 19:49:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Morality is certainly relative.
doihavemakeanewword · 1 points · Posted at 20:06:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I once had a critical thinking class where we were allowed to openly contest and debate any point made by the teacher to promote "free thought". So I immediately the teacher's notion that free thought exists by pointing out that everyone in the room was wearing clothing and nobody could give a reason why other than that's how they were raised.
Aiognim · 1 points · Posted at 23:48:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Wait, I agree with this... what does that really mean???
Please, someone tell me so I know what to think!
Phyltre · 1 points · Posted at 00:25:32 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not everyone believes what they were raised to believe, or what the majority of their state believes, or what someone told them to believe. Some people really do go out of their comfort zone to evaluate things.
The thing about even some proven psychological effects is the numbers involved--a 20% (or whatever) increase in likelihood is a real result for a published study, but at the end of the day, the behavior or correlation is still just more likely among the studied group. Making statistically convenient assumptions (like "lol you didn't open-mindedly inform your own worldview") is almost as lazy as trusting the people around you to be right.
TheFarmReport · 1 points · Posted at 18:29:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The upside to this is that if you can get enough people onboard with individuals who HAVE sat down and thought about things with as little bias as possible, then decide to agree with THEM, we're all better off. We can ALL be as smart as the smartest people we know if we listen to them.
Note: this is not a STEMlord etc thing. That's the same as religion but for socially clueless people. I mean respecting experts in all fields, including psych and humanities and public policy - whatever your original bias might be in regard to those fields - is a good stance to have.
CPSismyhero · 1 points · Posted at 19:08:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
True the problem is Anti-GMO people will respect well educated and well spoken anti GMO experts who have STEM degrees (and happen to be wrong but know way more about the issue than I and could destroy us in a debate)
TooM3R · 0 points · Posted at 17:28:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't exactly agree, 2 people can be from the same area and have totally different opinion about the same thing that's related to them. Eg. Israel - Palestinian confilct, many people in Israel have different opinions about it even when they come from the same place.
MooMooHullabaloo · 0 points · Posted at 18:44:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You don't think there are any views that an individual can hold that would demonstrate higher intelligence over those who hold an opposing view?
CPSismyhero · 1 points · Posted at 19:03:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Now we are getting into what intelligence means but no. Sure a Canadian who holds the view that a public - private healthcare system is more efficient is correct and other Canadians are objectively wrong. Same with a French person who is pro GMO while other French are objectively wrong. BUT that doesn't mean the Canadian or the French in my example are 'demonstrate higher intelligence'. Other people could be (and are) smarter and just have incorrect views because of their society.
MooMooHullabaloo · 1 points · Posted at 19:06:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So there are no views that can be only supported by correct logical reasoning and remain unaffected by social norms?
[deleted] · 16 points · Posted at 16:46:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The three main words I see real professionals use...
Probably, should, and possibly
The more you know about something, the more you realize you know nothing about it.
Gbiknel · 2 points · Posted at 18:00:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's just because the lawyers pounded those words into them ;)
Jk
But really though
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 18:02:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
One thing I learned in the real business world.... Nobody wants to take liability for shit, especially professionals. There's what they would expect based on their education vs what is possible in the realm of the real world. Nothing is ever simple.
ISw3arItWasntM3 · 1 points · Posted at 00:53:36 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think it's more about understanding nuances makes you dislike making absolutes statements when generalizing. Like "there should be traffic because it's rush hour". Not "there will be traffic because it's rush hour."
AgentElman · 259 points · Posted at 15:51:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Relevant xkcd https://xkcd.com/774/
genius_throwaway · -66 points · Posted at 16:13:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
nobody has even been able to refute john henry newman's argument for god's existence
as someone who has mastered physics, chemistry, biology, math, and has a Ph.D in computer science from a HPYMS, I agree with Newman.
AgentElman · 44 points · Posted at 16:38:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Are you talking about his argument that people act morally even if it hurts them?
You just have to see an insane person to realize his argument has no merit. He is simply cherry picking behavior he likes and claiming there must be a god which causes that while ignoring all of the other irrational behavior humans do.
He's basically claiming that rolling a 6 sometimes on a die is proof of a god because he likes 6s and ignore the other rolls.
HardlightCereal · 8 points · Posted at 16:32:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What's his argument?
[deleted] · 35 points · Posted at 16:40:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
His name is "genius_throwaway", he claims to have mastered not one but all three hard sciences and maths, which no one proficient in those subjects would ever do, and has a PhD in a fifth subject from a school whose initials turns up nothing on Google. Definitely a troll or just a liar.
GraciousTorment · 19 points · Posted at 17:01:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The acronym stands for Harvard, Princeton, Yale, MIT, Stanford, but I agree it's just a troll.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 17:34:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Huh, TIL. I missed the "a" before it so that didn't help.
FAT_NOT_FUNNY · 9 points · Posted at 16:49:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Are you telling me that "Hard Place Math Science" isn't a respectable institution?
PM_ME_CUTE_BABY_PICS · 3 points · Posted at 17:49:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
HPMS is Highland Park Middle School
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 16:32:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
ELI5 please. I googled his argument on the tenants of liberalism and it can't be proven right or wrong based on it's own points.
Holiday_in_Asgard · 1 points · Posted at 17:41:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What is the argument?
[deleted] · 199 points · Posted at 15:21:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The problem is that people won't acknowledge the source of their pet issue; a deep seated need to feel better than others, smarter, more righteous. That's the main thing behind virtually all online "activism". They never tackle the serious shit like say, a justice system wherein an innocent person can go to jail for decades or life for a crime they never committed. If everyone actually focused their attention on something like that, it would be incredible. But no, it's scary. Better take some pet issue and turn it into this big injustice because that way you can simultaneously feel righteous, smarter than the sheeple, and that sweet sweet indignation.
Inb4 "don't shit on someone else's cause just because there are bigger causes"
I don't buy that shit because I've spent enough time becoming familiar with the bullshit reddit loves to bitch about and they aren't interested in actually looking at things objectively. It's about their own personal feelings and inadequacies.
portingil · 39 points · Posted at 16:21:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think you hit at the root of it. Look at how many extreme political partisans talk about how people supporting the other candidate must be brainwashed / must be stupid / obviously can't think for themselves.
Meanwhile, these people that can think for themselves (who should be thinking for you) spend a lot of time posting in subreddits that only feed their preexisting conclusions about the world.
The740 · 14 points · Posted at 17:38:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The reactions to this past Saturday are a great example. "If you voted for Trump, you are responsible for this."
By that logic, if you voted for or support Bernie Sanders, you're responsible for trying to murder elected officials. It was a Sanders supporter who opened fire on a group of people who were minding their own business and practicing for a softball game, but by extension all must bear collective responsibility no matter what.
punking_funk · 10 points · Posted at 18:17:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Maybe there's something I'm missing but if you voted for Trump then you're guilty by association right? You enabled the riots to happen in a way. So why are all Muslims not guilty for ISIS? By not condemning your religion you're also responsible for them?
Or maybe people and issues in society are incredibly complex and we can't make statements about everyone. But nooo everyone on the Internet has to be hyperbolic or else you are a Nazi/libtard/sjw/white supremacist
Edit: I'm scared of the right and sick of the left and wish we'd all fucking work together
Mirrormn · 1 points · Posted at 19:35:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No, not no matter what. People saying "If you voted for Trump, you are responsible for this" are basing that accusation on a) Trump's history of personal racism and his racist and nationalist policies and messaging (wall, muslim ban, etc.), b) the amount of support Trump has received from white supremacists without condemnation or a change of message, and c) the stark clarity of all this during the election season. People have been saying "Hey, Trump's core message seems really hateful and xenophobic, probably don't vote for him" and "Hey, Trump is getting enthusiastic support from white supremacists and refusing to distance himself from them or their message, probably don't vote for him" for a good long time now. Sanders wasn't dog whistling violent antifa groups, nor would he have hesitated for a second to condemn anyone committing acts of murderous terror in his name, and that's the difference in the situation. When people say "If you voted for Trump, you are responsible for this", they're not saying "any politician is responsible for the actions of their supporters", they're saying "Trump has been uniquely supportive of this radical element of his support base, and all of us saw that in him from a very long time ago. Why couldn't you?"
portingil · 5 points · Posted at 03:02:44 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I am Hispanic, and very obviously Hispanic. I would support a limited amnesty for undocumented immigrants, I would never in any circumstances call ICE on somebody, and I think the wall is pretty silly. But equally silly is saying the wall is racist.
It's to curtail undocumented immigration, which so happens to usually come from across the Mexican border. Certainly that policy would appeal to racists, but the policy itself is not racist.
His history of personal racism, to me, is insignificant for someone that has spent decades in the public eye as a businessperson. Is this just the housing discrimination case from over 40 years ago?
Muslim ban was a temporary ban on Muslim immigration from Muslim countries until they can figure out a system to vet them. In these countries, religious terrorism is an issue. I personally don't care if Muslims come here, but I understand the motivation.
Again, this is a policy that would appeal to racists. But that doesn't mean the policy itself is racist, since it's based on elements of truth. And that doesn't mean everyone who supports the policy is racist.
How should he have "changed his message" without changing his policy proposals?
And why should they have to agree that it's hateful? Why should they vote against their interests because of who white supremacists happen to support? These supremacists are certainly a tiny minority of the population.
President Trump did condemn violence, and condemned violence from both sides. I've responded to a lot of people like you on here, and I don't think I've encountered even one who was willing to concede that the leftists also provoked violence that day.
Should President Trump have condemned any white supremacist groups that participated in that rally? I would have liked to see him do so, but it's not some unprecedented event that he did not. The facts point to Mr. Fields planning and executing this attack himself, with no assistance or approval from the leadership of these groups.
Should Bernie Sanders have condemned Black Lives Matter during the Dallas police shootings a year ago? They were committed by Micah Xavier Johnson, who was inspired by the Black Lives Matter movement. Black Lives Matter as a organization did not help him plan or carry out his attack.
Bernie Sanders spoke out against the violence, he said nothing about Black Lives Matter.
Shouldn't Sanders — whom I deeply regret ever donating money to — have been shamed into saying something about Black Lives Matter? Has he ever said anything about this Antifa group specifically?
Do you not believe there is a similarly radical, violent element on the Democratic side?
[deleted] · -4 points · Posted at 19:55:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
milksteak12 · 6 points · Posted at 20:07:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No he didn't. He presented a different view than those of the comments above him.
He made a good point about the Sanders shooter comparison not being the same. I personally agree that saying 'if you voted for Trump you caused this' is an unfair statement but if anything your comment is validating the point of the parent comments when dismissing another opinion by just pointing out that the other comments in this thread disagree with it (in a pretty condescending way).
Mirrormn · 3 points · Posted at 20:50:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes, and I don't completely agree with the comment I was defending either. Trump displayed some very concerning behavior during election season, and I'm not particularly happy with anyone who ignored that behavior to vote for him anyway, but to say that thay constitutes a direct share of the blame for anything that happens as a result of his election is a real stretch. Even if there were warning signs, the future is not that easy to predict. Nevertheless, I can't stand to see the equivocation, normalization, and what-aboutism that pervades a lot of anti-anti-Trump rhetoric lately. His position as a politician is not equivalent to any other politician in modern times, and parallels drawn between him and others are almost always invalid. And, even if Trump voters aren't connected by a direct line of blame to this event, I think it's absolutely appropriate for them to feel some amount indirect connection to the sequence of events and set of motivations that caused it to occur, and have a sense of guilt and regret in response.
InVultusSolis · 12 points · Posted at 16:42:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The biggest problem I've had is that when I try to discuss the nuts and bolts of an issue, people on either side of an issue take that itself as being argumentative.
DystopianNightmares · 1 points · Posted at 11:04:48 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oh yeah? Aren't screws good enough for you? Bloody bolt supremacist.
OHTHNAP · 6 points · Posted at 17:31:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"Everyone wants to change the world but nobody wants to change himself."
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 17:28:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I agree with you. I have an issue though that I've been dealing with myself.
I agree but at the same time I wonder, up to what point do you give someone the benefit of the doubt? I like reading/listening about opinionated topics even if I don't necessarily agree - it's providing perspective. When I have discussions online, I like to assume that the people I'm talking to aren't the type of ppl you mentioned, even if they are.
Similarly, I've made comments and posts, which I imagine reflects me to be the type of person you ve mentioned, but I don't think I am. I like talking about issues online bc it broadens my understanding of the world and makes me ask questions I normally wouldnt.
I'm not active really in the sense that I volunteer or support charitable organizations but I do like to talk about issues that are significant to me.
So, is this desire, to talk to ppl online about various issues, one from a place of my 'pet issue' in your eyes?
(To clarify, not an attack. Just curious about how you would interpret my type of behavior..I realize in a way I'M making it personal but I'm not taking it personally - being defensive, if that makes sense)
andinuad · 2 points · Posted at 18:47:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Why does it matter? Judge the arguments, not the person behind the arguments.
DebateLord420 · 7 points · Posted at 15:47:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Simmer down bud.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 15:59:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Must be itching to argue about how wrong I am, huh debatelord420?
DebateLord420 · 0 points · Posted at 16:05:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Lmao. Nah, I just enjoy shitposting on /r/Debate. Although, you can read into it however you like.
Edit: mobile sucks
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 17:39:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
lol I'm kidding. I just had to comment about your username because it was so fitting
Deto · 4 points · Posted at 17:06:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What does it matter though, why someone works towards a cause? If the cause is a good one and they are working to improve the situation, then who cares if there are underlying selfish motivations. It would probably be difficult to find a completely unselfish act at all - even when there are physical rewards usually there are psychological rewards for the person.
[deleted] · 7 points · Posted at 17:45:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It really does though. Self reflection is absolutely necessary, because without it, no one would realize that the thing they're fighting so hard against isn't enough. As soon as they feel they've "solved" that issue they need something else to fight against. Fighting over things that are subjective does nothing but cause a mountain of tensions and conflict between people while large scale, rather objective injustices like famine or resources continue to get worse. People arguing about little things like parenting choices really aren't seeing the big picture; the big problems getting worse while we're being distracted.
AgentChris101 · 2 points · Posted at 16:34:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's why i gave myself a different mindset. People like to always feel right and that can cause problems. There is a difference between knowing and feeling.
Sometimes our emotions towards things can create a bias which has the potential to be pointless. eg: I hated bananas because my sister hated bananas. Until i ate them more. BANANA'S are great! Also a good source of potassium.
People should learn to be open minded and view things without emotion/opinion judging it
Confuzedsquirrel · 2 points · Posted at 17:36:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't want to be rude, or debate this with you, but I think it's important to recognize that the second half of your comment contradicts everything you said about what people's political views are based in. There are objective facts, but for many people there aren't objective morals/ethical facts. Ethics is a philosophically complex issue thats hard to agree on. Objective/rule based/duty ethics exist and I'm not trying to convince you they're wrong, but there are also actually a lot of differing opinions even within their supporters.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:28:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think it has a lot to do with the fact that serious change is really hard, in addition to self-aggrandizement (and short attention spans). Changing the justice system would take years of work and basically becoming a professional activist working on getting politicians voted in who will make the changes you want. That's out of most people's ability.
DaddyCatALSO · 1 points · Posted at 18:03:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I feel a person has a right to their causes. Ultimately,, that can lead to things like, "So you are confused about your identity, you'r e not happy in your relationships. Millions of people are starving and have no decent clothes but you want to spend money on a therapist."
Irishwolf93 · 1 points · Posted at 18:17:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Perfect. Someone recently sarcastically linked to the Donald and I clicked it. The words weren't the same but the rhetoric was the same as the rest of this site. Paraphrased but it boils down to "look at these idiots who believe X despite all this 'logic and reason'."
People really just want to feel superior, and look for things that support their predetermined point of view.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:36:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's a great post! Truth.
CptMalReynolds · 1 points · Posted at 19:25:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm socialist. That's only important because I tend to look at the foundations and see shit that needs to change. But people are mostly comfortable with society as is and would rather bitch about problems that arise from systemic issues than address the issues at their core.
SuperSocrates · 1 points · Posted at 22:30:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There are thousands of people across the country fighting the injustice system, including using online activism. It's one of the most common areas of activist focus. Where do you get this idea that they only focus on unimportant issues?
PotatoRugby · 11 points · Posted at 16:57:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
However, that doesn't mean that people should always think the truth is somewhere in the middle. The compromise between truth and lie is never truth.
AssFuckMyGapingAnus · 8 points · Posted at 16:24:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yup and the assumptions fly too. "Are you a democrat or republican?". What kinda stupid question is that? You need to ask me an issue first. It's not like I agree with either of them 100%. I hope none of you do either. Who in your life have you ever agreed with 100%, let alone two completely corrupt parties. It's all a sports team nowadays anyways. They just want their side to win and will ignore anything that is evidence against them. Feminism, misogyny, BLM, nazis, you name it. They all have done varying degrees of fucked up shit, but if you asked them they would claim to be pure as can be.
GlisteningKidneys · 3 points · Posted at 19:53:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's obnoxious that we still categorize ourselves by left/right leaning honestly. It seems both extremes lay claim to the rest of their "groups" and those with somewhat scattered beliefs/are in the centre and viciously torn apart.
Before I got banned from r/lgbt I dealt with a guy who said "you agree 100% with the party you vote for". I honestly can't imagine completely devoting yourself to a side, I guess it's less frustrating than "everyone can do bad things"
John_Wilkes · 8 points · Posted at 16:42:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Having said that, a spectrum of shades of grey still has black and white at each end of it.
MintClassic · 11 points · Posted at 17:34:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
—Marc Stiegler, David's Sling
Confuzedsquirrel · 1 points · Posted at 17:39:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oh my god thank you for sharing this quote
qwenjwenfljnanq · 1 points · Posted at 18:02:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
More importantly, the system functions on being able to process via categorization.
A computer registers only ones and zeros. It really doesn't matter that between 1 and 0 there are infinite possible voltages of that bit of information - the computer will always make a determination of whether it's closer to 1 or 0 and go with it.
The arbitrary encapsulation of complexity is what makes the higher system possible.
IR_DIGITAL · 4 points · Posted at 17:54:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In addition, whatever black and white sides that people have boiled an issue down to, the truth is not always somewhere in the middle.
Sometimes one side is just lying.
Shuk247 · 3 points · Posted at 16:41:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Nobody is higher than the guy sitting on the fence.
hightrix · 1 points · Posted at 19:33:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This guy might disagree.
Have a great day!
idledrone6633 · 2 points · Posted at 17:25:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I always thought eugenics was one of the hardest topics to sort out in a moral way. When talking about genetics, we know that if your lineage has red hair, it's a possibility you will have red hair. How difficult is it to imagine that violence, intelligence, and handicaps are genetic as well. Would it not behoove the human race to remove the weaker links to create a better race? Of course, it's immoral. It's Nazism.
It was also started in America. So we have that black mark on us. I often wonder though, had the Nazis not went apeshit on Europe, would eugenics have continued up until today? What would the world look like?
beardead · 2 points · Posted at 18:06:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There are two kinds of people...
Cod_Metal_King · 2 points · Posted at 18:08:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Chess
bubblesculptor · 2 points · Posted at 18:33:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is a huge problem with the current 2-party political system. Each 'side' feels like they have to pick the extreme opposite stance on every issue, making each party turn into a caricature of themselves. Also makes each individual issue harder to solve because most people feel differently about certain issues than 'their' party does. Some issues I lean toward the conservative side, some I lean towards the liberal side. And usually my feelings are more centerist rather than extreme. You can't even get 3 people to agree on pizza toppings, how the heck are they supposed to divide up major issues into 2 parties and expect anything to get done?!
drhorn · 2 points · Posted at 19:59:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Beyond making things black and white, the fact that people think that oversimplifying an issue clears a path to resolving it.
"Well, Mexicans are just coming to America because it's too easy to cross the border, so let's just make the border harder to cross and boom! problem solved"
No, you dumbshit, that solves nothing because illegal immigration is a much, much more complex issue than crossing the border.
suicide_is_painful · 5 points · Posted at 15:13:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yup... people get so caught up in their "beliefs" and hate everyone that's different. The truth is, every debate is a debate because both sides have good arguments. There are valid points on both sides. Once one side or the other becomes part of their identity though, they can't see anything about the other side as good.
I_like_your_reddit · 12 points · Posted at 15:51:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Creationism, the climate "debate", the birther movement, this weekend's white supremacist rally....
These are issues just off the top of my head in less than 30 seconds of effort where one side literally has no valid arguments.
EDIT: If you disagree, rather than downvoting me how about you actually share some of these totally valid arguments in favor of white supremacy, creationism, climate change denial, or Obama's non-citizenship?
JamEngulfer221 · 6 points · Posted at 17:54:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You make a good point. Something that really bugs me is the idea that every opinion is a valid opinion and nobody is really wrong.
Bullshit. Your opinions can be objectively wrong, no matter how hard you believe them.
wheeliebarnun · 1 points · Posted at 18:46:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'll bite, just for the fuck of it though, not because I actually care. Real quick before I wade in, I just want to point out that you listed off a few very broad topics so it's pretty hard to know what I'm actually arguing against, but here goes.
Creationism: I think this was a pretty poor choice to use this as an example because well, neither side can be proven, so every one that takes a hard stance is really just "having faith" if you will.
the climate "debate": honestly, the goal posts for this one are constantly moving, is it global warming, or climate change? Are we saying it's man made or "natural"? I can pretty much find data to back up an argument for or against any combination of answers here.
the birther movement: I had to google this to remember this was even a thing but here goes.. Should a president of the united states not have to prove he was born in the US? It is a requirement after all. Countering with no one else was asked for their birth certificate is like saying "but he started it" or "I was just going with the flow of traffic, officer"
this weekend's white supremacist rally: again, are we arguing about whether whites are actually supreme or if people should be able to rally? I'll guess the former. I guess it depends on what we're measuring. I'd say whites are pretty supreme at being white but they're kind of bottom of the barrel at.. ya know.. not.
trylist · 3 points · Posted at 19:04:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Creationism implies young earth creationism, which is proven wrong by things like the microwave background and carbon dating. If you're unfamiliar with the argument, the defining moment was when religious fundies wanted public schools to "teach the controversy", both the big bang and a 6000 year old earth, as if both have equal merit.
wheeliebarnun · 1 points · Posted at 16:38:12 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ah, see, I thought we were discussing creationism as a whole, as in "intelligent design" vs "big bang" or whatever, so yeah, there's pretty much no argument to support the earth only being 7000 years old or whatever they think these days.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 16:58:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
I_like_your_reddit · 2 points · Posted at 17:03:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If they're not really debate topics, why the hell are we still having to have these debates about these topics?
And again, these are things I came up with just immediately off the top of my head.
The person to whom I was originally replying said that the problem with all debates is that people can't see the merits of the arguments of the other side. If we say that this short list of items are things that are not up for debate, can't we be accused of committing that very sin?
DeathDevilize · 2 points · Posted at 17:03:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That doesnt mean you should be accepting or even tolerating all of them.
If someones ideology was that burning you for entertainment is legitimate you would be a fool to just accept that.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:09:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
An ignorant appeal to controversy is just as bad. Evolution, global warming, vaccinations, GMO- these issues pit science against willful ignorance, and shouldn't be treated as if they had 'shades of grey'.
Desperado2583 · 2 points · Posted at 17:20:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
With one exception: belief based on evidence, data and statistics vs belief based on anything other than evidence, data and statistics.
andinuad · 1 points · Posted at 18:56:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Keep also in mind that there is a difference between believing based on evidence, data and statistics and believing based on what a person (who you assume has drawn his conclusion based evidence, data and statistics) says.
ajsayshello- · 2 points · Posted at 17:25:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'd say 50% people understand this and 50% of people don't. You either do or you don't.
jayxthexhuman · 2 points · Posted at 18:48:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
you do....sometimes? always think in shades of grey
MagicSPA · 1 points · Posted at 16:37:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No, no, no - terrorists are bad, torture is good.
What, you want to hug and kiss the terrorists, is that what you're saying, terrorist-lover?
James_Navigator · 1 points · Posted at 17:06:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I absolutely agree and try to relay this as much as possible. Reasons why things happen (motivations, natural phenomenon, a collapse of an ancient society, etc.) or, for example, why a society today has developed to its current position are often a complex mix of factors. Rarely can things be explained away by one specific reason.
Paulpaps · 1 points · Posted at 17:06:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The first step to wisdom is accepting you know nothing.
pm_boobs_send_nudes · 1 points · Posted at 17:12:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is especially true in the field of law. In most cases there are no "winner" and "losers". Often both sides will win some of the issues contested in a case and lose some of the issues contested in the case.
Tintinabulation · 1 points · Posted at 17:18:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
YES.
Bad events do not negate good events. They both happened. The bad should not be repeated and learned from, the good should be celebrated, and both can be done concurrently without any kind of denial or issues.
theWhyvern · 1 points · Posted at 17:20:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I agree.
The world is very gray and very light on absolutes.
Evil exists, and sometimes it's necessary or the least evil that can be accepted as the best and only outcome for everyone in total.
Doesn't excuse cynical "There's nothing I can do." though. If you can do something in your power to make the world a better place, even if it's unrelated to your current concern, do.
I forget who said it in the Bible, but: "God/Jesus/Whoever helps those who help themselves." Pull your fuckin' weight.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:24:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But...when you hear a bad idea, your natural reaction is not to start rattling off potential alternative ideas. Your natural reaction is to oppose the bad idea. Pretty soon, people polarize into two groups that either support the idea or oppose it. I think it's unfair to categorize someone as ignorant for simply opposing an idea that they believe to be a bad one. (Or supporting it.)
darwin2500 · 1 points · Posted at 17:25:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sure, this is true.
It's worth mentioning, though, that politics in the US is locked into a tow-party system. So even if an issue is not itself black and white, you generally only have the option to vote for one of two policy stances on the topic, which ends up feeling/sounding roughly the same.
leonprimrose · 1 points · Posted at 17:31:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Got told I was defending North Korea last night because I was explaining the reasoning behind Kim's actions and why it makes sense, given the position he finds himself in, that he would make some of the decisions he's made. It doesn't mean he's not a monstrous person heading a monstrous regime. But there more nuance than good and evil.
TheFistOfGon · 1 points · Posted at 17:32:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The world is not black and white, but shades of grey.
OrbitPKA · 1 points · Posted at 17:32:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is not a black and white world
To be alive, I say the colors must swirl
And I believe that maybe today
We will all get to appreciate
The beauty of gray
- Live
WhiteRaven42 · 1 points · Posted at 17:33:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But do you contend that "90% of people don't understand" that?
A_Year_Of_Storms · 1 points · Posted at 17:38:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not saying your wrong, just that this is a very black and white statement.
Kylearean · 1 points · Posted at 17:39:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
One point that occurs to me is that these items you've listed are all subjective to a great extent. All subjective ideologies consist of a consensus of the people who participate in these ideologies. Take, for example, the divisive topic of marijuana legalization. 15 years ago, in the U.S., the concept was laughable. Now, it's a reality in many states. What changed? The conversation changed, the flow of information changed, the knowledge changed, the participants changed and so, the ideology behind marijuana usage changed.
And so it will ever be. Politics, ethics, religion, conflicts, all EXIST because of varying degrees of participation and information. It's the proximity of conflicting ideas that create rifts between groups of people. Within a specific ideological group, a certain topic may be perfectly black and white.
jdrc07 · 1 points · Posted at 17:43:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I realized this when Sandy Hook happened. I think the nature of the crime, compounded by the fact that I had a little sister right around that age really fucked with me.
I spent dozens of hours pondering what could be done legislatively to prevent such an event and found no solution that wouldn't be extremely expensive and piss off gun owners too much to pass the house/senate.
Shits complicated yo.
candybomberz · 1 points · Posted at 17:43:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I call this the difference between philosopical thinking and mathematical thinking.
Most people think philosopical. I have 1 argument for something that is right, so any argument for the opposite must be wrong.
Often both arguments are right and just point you to the fact that the solution is somewhere in the middle.
andinuad · 1 points · Posted at 19:03:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You are aware of that that "mathematical thinking" is literally a subsection of philosophy: deductive reasoning?
candybomberz · 1 points · Posted at 19:44:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just because mathematical thinking is a subspace of philosopical thinking in the most rigorous sense, does not mean it's the other way around aswell.
Also you should see it in a practical way from a high school perspective, because that is what most people know about most topics. Philosophy in high school is void of math, thus in a colloquial sense, philosophy is void of math.
andinuad · 1 points · Posted at 19:52:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Why should I think about it from a high school perspective? At best I only know what my specialization taught in high school during those years in one country. Heck, philosophy in that context was a voluntary course, you didn't have to take it to graduate.
candybomberz · 1 points · Posted at 19:59:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Exactly, but that is what most people know about most topics.
This means when you define words for general use for the public, you can take that perspective as standard, because after that if you do any science at all your are most likely specializing on 1 subject + the necessary math.
The perspective only refers to the usage of words, as most people would understand it.
Ofcourse in the general sense you are right. Math is a subspace of Philosophy.
But Reasoning is philosophy, and the level of reasoning that most people have is void of math.
You could call it reasonbased thinking vs mathematical thinking.
But let's be honest, that just sounds weird. And in the end, to get a solution you have to use math, otherwise your conclusion will just be useless and abstract.
wade3673 · 1 points · Posted at 17:43:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Here we go again, another comment about racial segregation!
sonrad10 · 1 points · Posted at 17:46:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What about computer science?
darkpaladin · 1 points · Posted at 17:47:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's really difficult to rally people to your cause by saying "well actually it's pretty complicated" as opposed to "it's super simple and anyone who disagrees is obviously a moron".
5nurp5 · 1 points · Posted at 17:47:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
you can deal with most thing with 5 (five) shades of gray between black and white, tops.
noreally811 · 1 points · Posted at 17:53:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's racist. /s
Sveet_Pickle · 1 points · Posted at 17:54:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Nuance is difficult, though it's much more rewarding when you're able to discuss a topic and successfully discuss the nuances in that topic.
ostone · 1 points · Posted at 17:55:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Imagine_others_complexly
mcgruber55 · 1 points · Posted at 18:01:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Do 90% of people not know this
MineWiz · 1 points · Posted at 18:02:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is probably why George Washington said not to do the split parties thing. Yay America tho.
ragn4rok234 · 1 points · Posted at 18:17:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Unless you're talking about US politics, there's only Republican and Democrat. One or the other and never both. Sorta /s
RToelke · 1 points · Posted at 18:17:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Redditors need to read this
Swampfoxx89 · 1 points · Posted at 18:17:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Exactly. And people down south don't understand that I can be a Christian and not be a republican. I don't like abortions but making it illegal wouldn't get rid of them. It would only make it far more dangerous.
torgo129 · 1 points · Posted at 18:18:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is more or less what I was going to say. If solving certain problems were as simple as people made it sound, those problems would have been solved long ago. The world is incredibly complicated.
peppers_taste_bad · 1 points · Posted at 18:19:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Anything I like is nuanced and multifaceted, and everything else is dumb for this one simple reason.
wastesHisTimeSober · 1 points · Posted at 18:19:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes...
Possibly.
This means, to me, understanding the situation to such a degree that you can have very "black or white" axioms and a perfect set of logic that follows. Until we've reached this point, we don't really have a true "understanding". Just intuition / feelings.
Most of the things we try to argue about using logic are realms where logic doesn't really belong yet. Things like politics, that's the realm of rhetoric. The system is so big and complex that we don't have a true understanding of it yet.
The goal should be to take smaller pieces of the problem and analyze/study/experiment with them until we do have that kind of understanding, then assemble all those smaller pieces into a unified understanding.
We're moving there slowly, but we haven't come to understand the system that is society very well, partially because we're still struggling to understand the individual human system. First we need to finish mapping the brain's functions, then we'll be able to use that model to construct better societal models.
Josef_Joris · 1 points · Posted at 18:22:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You're ignorant for being able to see the difference in 2 subject matters?
DLTMIAR · 1 points · Posted at 18:24:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The world is gray and the harder you look, the grayer it becomes
slipperypete89 · 1 points · Posted at 18:26:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's all relative.
aether10 · 1 points · Posted at 18:31:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's hard to sit with that uncertainty, sometimes. I feel lost and under educated on most topical subjects and below capacity in ability to process, remember and discuss such things and that I often have nothing to contribute.
People give others a hard rap for not thinking critically and being too swayed by superficial arguments or holding untenable stances with too much conviction, but critical thinking is hard and effortful. It can be very difficult to hold an entirely unbiased perspective (maybe even impossible) and on some subjects it's hard to find good, quality sources that you can trust - and even those sources may have their own errors which you may or may not be aware of or looking out for.
There are some things in comparison with another that essentially are black and white, though. And, black and white perspectives often help us in argumentation to see the valid points from both sides and to quantify exactly what the 'grey' is and means.
iTryAnother · 1 points · Posted at 18:36:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Grey matter
KrullIntent · 1 points · Posted at 18:38:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's why they invented pivot tables. The problems of the world can be solved with pivot tables.
elmiraguth · 1 points · Posted at 18:39:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So, is tomato a fruit or a vegetable?
SSGAsterix · 1 points · Posted at 18:40:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"Only a sith deals in absolutes"
-Obi-wan Kenobi
Nuzhuz · 1 points · Posted at 18:40:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The construction of our language is to blame for our binary thinking. English is a very logical language, and gives way to binary thinking.
Dirigent · 1 points · Posted at 18:42:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
While this is true, people allow the complexity of some things to justify giving up on trying to understand them.
Just because something has multiple interpretations, multiple sides, many angles, and can mean different things, doesn’t mean it’s pointless to try and understand it. I have witnessed far too many people decide “Well I guess it doesn’t matter then” because there is no way their theory can be right because “WHAT ABOUT THIS???”
You can poke holes in anything, and can use as much technicality or as little, to justify inaction. It happens all the time at my workplace.
sporket · 1 points · Posted at 18:42:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But try telling someone the world is not black and white, but shades of grey and you'll just be met with an incredulous look at best.
jayxthexhuman · 1 points · Posted at 18:45:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
and gender.
rjbman · 1 points · Posted at 18:49:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
the wise man bowed his head solemnly and spoke: "theres actually zero difference between good & bad things. you imbecile. you fucking moron"
JayLeeCH · 1 points · Posted at 18:50:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not even colors in art can be that simple. Is it gold or is it blue?
wynden · 1 points · Posted at 18:54:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Having just survived a Formal Logic course, this is my favorite answer.
the_ninja1001 · 1 points · Posted at 18:58:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Donnie: Ling Ling finds a wallet on the ground filled with money. She takes the wallet to the address on the driver's license but keeps the money inside the wallet. <Scoffs> I-'m sorry Mrs. Farmer. I don't get this.
Kitty Farmer: Just place an X on the Life Line in the appropriate place.
Donnie: No, I mean I know what to do, I just don't get this. You can't just lump things into two categories. Things aren't that simple.
Kitty: The Life Line is divided that way.
Donnie: Life isn't that simple. I mean who cares if Ling Ling returns the wallet and keeps the money? It has nothing to do with either fear or love.
Kitty: Fear and love are the deepest of human emotions.
Donnie: Okay. But you're not listening to me. There are other things that need to be taken into account. Like the whole spectrum of human emotion. You can't just lump everything into these two categories and then just deny everything else.
Kitty: If you don't complete the assignment you'll get a zero for the day.
bship · 617 points · Posted at 17:37:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Dentist here.
Brush your teeth twice daily, floss a few times a week and don't go to sleep with a filthy ass mouth.
This would save me like 90% of my job.
[deleted] · 85 points · Posted at 19:42:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
stonedarcher · 21 points · Posted at 20:05:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's seriously fucked up.
joyous_occlusion · 11 points · Posted at 21:27:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That would be where I would be fired as a dental hygienist. I wouldn't be able to stop myself from saying, "Wow, looks like you busted a nut or two in your mouth."
seeking_hope · 2 points · Posted at 22:02:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My dentist had single wrap toothbrushes with tooth paste embedded in the bristles in all their bathrooms for patients to use. It was great for a last minute clean before going in- like cleaning your house before the cleaners come!
nmrnmrnmr · 1 points · Posted at 00:45:27 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I"m so self conscious about it I won't eat all day before an appointment. I try to make them before noon for that reason.
slipperylips · 72 points · Posted at 17:52:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Why do dentists tell people this. If everyone brushed regularly, rinsed with Listerine, flossed every day. Wouldn't you be unemployed? I had a coworker whose father was a dentist. He sealed his teeth with this plastic coating. He never got a cavity. If everyone did this, dentists would be broke.
0bskurity · 150 points · Posted at 18:25:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Because they aren't shitty people and actually want the world to be better?
NESsystem · 2 points · Posted at 01:42:00 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
My mom has a coworker that is the exact opposite of what you said. She inspects patients and suggests unnecessary and sometimes painful operations for commision. Shes a good dentist though so no way the boss would 'notice'.
ionwesker · 41 points · Posted at 18:54:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Would rather fix a broken tooth in a clean mouth or a mouth that smelled like rancid dog shit?
bship · 14 points · Posted at 19:05:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I love fixing disasters, the bigger the difference I can make the happier I am.
No-Time_Toulouse · 2 points · Posted at 20:27:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think what /u/ionwesker is asking "Would you rather need to clean a dirty mouth or a clean mouth in the first place?"
Given that there are already disastrous mouths in the first place, perhaps you would rather fix those. But you would certainly rather that if a problem had to arise in the first place, it be a small problem.
Phantoful · 65 points · Posted at 19:07:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Doctors, contrary to popular belief, are almost always looking out for the best for their patients. Anyone who goes to medical school for the money drops out by the first year.
ovalseven · 16 points · Posted at 20:31:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And then becomes a chiropractor.
inconspicuousss · 10 points · Posted at 20:40:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Lmao, grain of truth somewhere but far from being absolute
[deleted] · 14 points · Posted at 19:51:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Phantoful · 3 points · Posted at 20:03:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yep, that's why I hated Experimental Psych class.
I_swallow_watermelon · 2 points · Posted at 20:28:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
but they also look to keep their job and salary
simcowking · 1 points · Posted at 20:54:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Guarantee I'm still going to the dentist every time possible even if I'm properly caring formy teeth.
TheShadowKick · 3 points · Posted at 21:53:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The value of preventative maintenance needs to be taught more frequently. My teeth are all kinds of messed up because I wasn't taught it.
slipperylips · 1 points · Posted at 14:13:21 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
The patients come after themselves.Who would endure the rigors of medical school followed by the professional slavery of residency if you would make a modest salary. No doctor in the United States of America isn't making fantastic money $160,000 +. None.
MD = money doctor PhD = poor hungry doctor
HopefullyMrFixit · 36 points · Posted at 18:28:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Dentists HATE him!
bship · 13 points · Posted at 19:04:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
We are constantly trying to work ourselves out of a job. Truth is, people just don't give a shit and complacency will always win out.
[deleted] · 9 points · Posted at 18:52:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
HE SEALED YOUR CO-WORKER'S TEETH OR HIS OWN TEETH? WHAT COLOUR PLASTIC?
slipperylips · 11 points · Posted at 19:01:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
He had a clear coating on the top of his teeth. I think it is called sealing the teeth. You can't get cavities with this treatment. None of my dentists ever mentioned it. I wonder why?
Erinysceidae · 12 points · Posted at 19:09:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You can still get cavities around and below the gum line, so it's not a perfect process. The part of your tooth that would get covered is the easiest part to clean anyway.
Anneisabitch · 7 points · Posted at 19:10:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Because most insurance won't pay for it unless you're a kid. And it's not really needed unless you have teeth that are really prone to cavities or you aren't properly taking care of your teeth.
OnAKaiserRoll · 2 points · Posted at 19:46:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
They've got a PhD, they'll find something else to do.
tochasetheskies · 1 points · Posted at 19:41:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
He sealed his teeth? How is this not a health risk? ELI5
Jollygood156 · 1 points · Posted at 19:52:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Dentists will soon destroy their own market
Ellsass · 1 points · Posted at 11:03:48 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
People still need regular cleanings and other dental work even if they have great hygiene.
AimingWineSnailz · -1 points · Posted at 19:15:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Because of human nature
BevansDesign · -4 points · Posted at 20:05:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Suddenly he and his fellow dentists find themselves unemployed, and before you know it they're all voting for Trump.
adamdesautel · 6 points · Posted at 20:09:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You guys tell me to floss every time, and I'm just never gonna fucking do it
bship · 2 points · Posted at 23:12:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Water pik is a surprisingly good investment and simple "alternative."
adamdesautel · 1 points · Posted at 09:01:42 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I might buy that!
AdolfJongUn · 5 points · Posted at 19:23:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Side note. Waterpik or Electric toothbrush? Also brand recommendation?
Bay_Leaf_Af · 4 points · Posted at 19:58:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I like my Philips sonicare. I consistently get good comments from my hygienist when I have the twice-a-year cleanings. :)
Greymaremusic · 2 points · Posted at 21:50:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Will second this. Love mine!
AdolfJongUn · 1 points · Posted at 20:43:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Noted thanks!
bship · 2 points · Posted at 23:16:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Water pik, yay.
Electric toothbrush, yay (seriously, they work great)
Brand doesn't matter so much as what happens at the brush. You want one that is "rotating-oscillating."
Personally I use the Oral-B Pro 5000 because they gave it to me for free. It works great but most of them do.
AdolfJongUn · 1 points · Posted at 00:10:42 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Thanks! And thanks for the disclosures lol. I might pick one up in payday
markymark7621 · 1 points · Posted at 03:43:43 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Be sure to get the sonicare model without the large, round base on the removable head. Gets gunked up. Get the skinny brush head type. Easier to keep clean.
WillisMammoth · 3 points · Posted at 19:24:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My dad insists on brushing his teeth 6+ times a day. I'm not wrong in thinking that it is actually damaging his teeth am I?
sigurbjorn1 · 6 points · Posted at 19:55:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Might cause his gumline to recede, perhaps? Not a dentist, though.
Erandir · 4 points · Posted at 20:07:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If he brushes properly, he'll be fine. The key is not to brush too hard. People think you have to brush hard to get rid of plaque. Try holding the brush with only two fingers to give you an idea of what the pressure should feel like. Also use the softest bristled toothbrush. Recession from brushing is called toothbrush abrasion.
Jair-Bear · 2 points · Posted at 21:03:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I've also heard you shouldn't brush right after eating; your saliva softens you enamel or something?
Erandir · 3 points · Posted at 22:00:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Correct. It's the acidity in your mouth that can soften enamel though. And hard brushing can cause erosion over the course of years. Take a look at the Stephan curve regarding pH levels after eating. pH5.5 is where your enamel is vulnerable.
pointseeker · 5 points · Posted at 19:49:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What's your opinion on the alcohol based mouthwashes? I've heard mixed reviews from dentists - some say it's good for killing the bacteria, others have told me it can dry out your mouth a bit and promote plaque growth.
and_so_obvs · 3 points · Posted at 19:58:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Also, dentists are consistently impressed that I brush the back of my teeth, which is buck wild to me. I just assumed that I have to brush as much of the tooth as a toothbrush can reach.
littlewing52 · 3 points · Posted at 20:06:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Filthy-ass mouth, or filthy ass-mouth? #hyphensmatter
Irelgbt · 13 points · Posted at 17:48:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And your salary
If I was a dentist I'd be like hell yeah drink some coke and don't forget to wash it around your mouth for good taste, Actually let it sit and erode for a minute or so too
wolfgirlnaya · 35 points · Posted at 19:04:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Aaaaand that would be why you're not a dentist.
Irelgbt · 0 points · Posted at 23:25:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sorry just making a joke....🙄
SurturOfMuspelheim · 2 points · Posted at 19:59:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I just want to point out that I brushed my teeth once a week for almost 10 years and have still never got a cavity in my entire life. (And before you ask, I have been brushing my teeth consistently for a while now, thanks)
SenorSteak · 1 points · Posted at 22:44:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
People think brushing your teeth is to protect your teeth only... it's your gums you are protecting when you brush.
catsalways · 1 points · Posted at 22:44:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Why did you only brush once a week? I've done this too for depression reasons.
SurturOfMuspelheim · 2 points · Posted at 23:21:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Depression.
catsalways · 2 points · Posted at 03:29:24 on August 19, 2017 · (Permalink)
I relate. My teeth are getting bad tho..
SurturOfMuspelheim · 2 points · Posted at 03:36:03 on August 19, 2017 · (Permalink)
Heh, when I was a kid I fell at a pool and landed on them. Broke my two top front teeth in half. It kinda gave me a feeling of "my teeth are forever shit" even after I got caps in. I basically stopped brushing for a while, then I started brushing rarely, basically only when I went to a doctors or randomly once a week. Brushing daily has been difficult but it's become a habit now.
catsalways · 1 points · Posted at 06:05:29 on August 19, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's good. I have a dentist appt next week. Should be great fun! ....
InternalFarts · 3 points · Posted at 19:17:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I thought they made research about how flossing was actually useless. Why do dentists keep telling people to do so? It's even weirder to me because in France, where I'm from, no dentist ever asks people to floss whatsoever.
vauran · 17 points · Posted at 19:37:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't even understand how flossing would be useless. Food gets stuck in your gums, you floss and get it out or you dont and the food/sugars fuck your teeth and gums up.
[deleted] · -1 points · Posted at 19:41:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
luleigas · 5 points · Posted at 20:38:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm European and I floss daily.
InternalFarts · 1 points · Posted at 20:46:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Really? What country if I may ask?
luleigas · 3 points · Posted at 20:52:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Austria
dearges · 3 points · Posted at 20:33:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Evidence is weak it stops cavities, it does limit gingivitis and help improve breath. Gingivitis can lead to heart disease, and everyone wants to be kissable.
Erandir · 10 points · Posted at 20:03:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No, there's no research that says flossing is useless. There's just a lack of well designed publications that show flossing's effectiveness. We recommend it because in our experience we can see the results in our patients when they start to floss regularly (it's a low level of evidence but it's still valid).
InternalFarts · 0 points · Posted at 20:09:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If there is a lack of evidence of its effectiveness, isn't just another way to word that there is no proof it's useful anyhow? If researches can't conclude it's useful, it's underlying it's useless.
Erandir · 4 points · Posted at 20:17:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The reason there is a lack of evidence is because it's difficult to design a study that doesn't have so many other confounding variables that effect the data. There are so many things that determine whether or not a carious lesion is going to form in a patient's tooth including diet, how soon after eating a patient brushes, saliva flow rate, saliva enzymes present, brushing technique, toothpaste used, flossing technique, water fluoride level, fluoride treatments when the tooth was developing as a child, and age of patient to name a few.
InternalFarts · 2 points · Posted at 22:49:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But isn't the diversity between individuals something usual in science? Don't scientists usual take a big group of person to compare result? As in, if you take two groups of maybe one thousand persons each, also making sure there is about the same diversity inside each, you could compare the outcome of flossing by asking to one group to floss and the other one not too. Also, twins studies. They would have the same DNA and childhood, one would floss and not the other one. I can't see why making studies like that would be un-achievable. I've seen this type of research about much more complexe things.
ksargi · 1 points · Posted at 20:22:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Still, the difficulty of designing a study does not replace lack of evidence in support of something.
Erandir · 3 points · Posted at 20:27:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There's plenty of evidence. It's just not of the highest level.
OmgKidGetAJob · 0 points · Posted at 21:49:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The absence of evidence, is not the evidence of absence.
InternalFarts · 1 points · Posted at 22:42:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
As much as it's true, there is also a rule in science that says that the easiest explanation to something is the explanation we should take. So maybe it's wrong but I really don't think it's stupid to say that if it hasn't been proved that it's useful, it might be useless.
dearges · 2 points · Posted at 20:31:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It doesn't affect cavities, but it does prevent gum disease, which oddly can have knock on heart effects.
UsErNaMe-NoT_TaKeN · 2 points · Posted at 21:10:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I was told the complete opposite. If you only flossed and washed your mouth out, you would probably be ok.
InternalFarts · 2 points · Posted at 22:50:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I've never flossed in my life, and I go to the dentist every year. They never told me to floss. Which is why I find the flossing-topic so confusing XD
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 22:43:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
InternalFarts · 1 points · Posted at 22:51:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I have to say, I rarely ever have anything in-between, so I might just be lucky.
SenorSteak · 1 points · Posted at 10:26:17 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you never floss, how do you know?
xecha99 · 1 points · Posted at 19:17:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So true!
smellytoots · 1 points · Posted at 19:34:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Which is better, brushing twice a day but not once before bed, or brushing twice a day, once before bed?
Erandir · 6 points · Posted at 20:09:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Brushing before bed is most important. Saliva is a major protective substance and when you sleep, you provide significantly less saliva. That combined with the long period of time that plaque is sitting on the teeth and gums makes brushing before bed so important.
The_Indifferent · 1 points · Posted at 20:02:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I was told flossing is more important than brushing. Is that not true?
Trust_Me_Im_Right · 1 points · Posted at 20:13:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I only brush once a day and never floss. Doc told me I had beautiful teeth. I chew a lot of gum if that helps
Humiliatingmyself · 1 points · Posted at 20:17:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm kinda picturing Mr T yelling at patients not to go to sleep with a filthy ass mouth now.
rcbs · 1 points · Posted at 20:31:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Can I go to sleep with a filthy ass?
pokealex · 1 points · Posted at 20:37:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Don't go to sleep with a filthy ass/mouth.
CeaRhan · 1 points · Posted at 20:42:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What should we do when we're bleeding every time we brush and our nerves become supersensitive but dentists say "there is nothing wrong with you" and we're stuck with those issues for years?
SenorSteak · 2 points · Posted at 22:44:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Find a new dentist.
master-cunt · 1 points · Posted at 20:50:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But I like eating ass late at night and then passing out right after
introspeck · 1 points · Posted at 21:01:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I handed thousands of dollars to dentists every few years. Then I stopped drinking 3 or 4 sodas a day, and cut way back on sugar overall. After about six months, my checkups showed no new cavities.
I was not fanatical about brushing, I did it pretty regularly, but it was the sugar and citric/phosphoric acids that were totally destroying my teeth.
catholic_dayseeker · 1 points · Posted at 21:43:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm sorry Dr. :(
AverageMerica · 1 points · Posted at 00:42:39 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Will sticking a shower head in my mouth count as flossing
jfugginrod · 0 points · Posted at 19:21:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
don't eat shit. i stepped up my dental game since my last dentist visit 6 months ago. Brushed my teeth twice a day and flossed every night. Still had 2 small cavities that need filling and some plague buildup and the bottom teeth. But ill be damned if i give up that sugary goodness
ChibiHuynH · 772 points · Posted at 16:25:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Custom furniture is fucking expensive. I make furniture for a living.
When people find out I bombarded with "I saw this on Pinterest, can you make it for 50 dollars?"
Fuck no, I charge 35 an hour minimum. That doesn't even cover materials or shop time.
AND NO IM NOT GOING TO USE YOUR FUCKING PALLET WOOD
byerss · 82 points · Posted at 19:24:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
To add to this that people don't understand:
Pallets are made of pine or other soft wood, and probably the shittiest grade too. Not exactly something to make furniture out of.
samonsammich · 21 points · Posted at 20:04:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
ironically, pallet can be made from a variety of different woods, including hardwoods like oak and walnut. what matters isn't so much the grade of the wood, but whether or not it's an off-cut.
if anyone's interested, here's a good breakdown: https://www.1001pallets.com/heck-wood-pallet/
wrong_assumption · 31 points · Posted at 18:09:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just have a master carpenter in Mexico do it if you live in a border city. Easy.
Scholesie09 · 22 points · Posted at 21:16:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ese*
wrong_assumption · 3 points · Posted at 03:39:55 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's funny, but just wanted to say that Ese is Chicano slang, not Mexican.
tabarra · 2 points · Posted at 01:34:12 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Let me call Jesus
Stroke_n_Smoke · 26 points · Posted at 19:10:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Very true, anything custom will cost more than a mass produced item. Gf makes custom clothes and people are shocked that it costs so much
[deleted] · 11 points · Posted at 21:58:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
ChibiHuynH · 6 points · Posted at 23:00:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I usually tell people "If Walmart, Ikea, or Target are options for you, go for them. My furniture and theirs are nothing a like."
jbaird · 76 points · Posted at 18:21:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
sooooo much of our ideas of what something should cost have to do with stuff constructed using cheap materials using cheap labor and is a relatively recent invention..
Its likely that furniture always costed quite a lot.. a dining set for $1000 is only possible in the last 80 years or so..
AnarkeIncarnate · 77 points · Posted at 19:16:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Cost.
The past tense of cost is cost.
HitlerHistorian · 25 points · Posted at 19:28:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Hey, don't accost him!
AnarkeIncarnate · 5 points · Posted at 19:29:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'll leave that to this guy:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Acosta
BassoProfondo · 3 points · Posted at 19:57:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Shouldn't it be cöst?
AnarkeIncarnate · 10 points · Posted at 20:01:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
you get your little dots umlautta here
Baneken · 8 points · Posted at 19:32:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Thing is 80's years ago you made that dining set your self and rich people hired a carpenter.
M4053946 · 7 points · Posted at 19:59:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Jimmy Carter has mentioned that when he was young and in the Navy, he would just make new furniture each time he moved, leaving the old furniture behind.
jbaird · 4 points · Posted at 19:52:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah I've been looking around for a kind of 'local cabinet maker' prices back when there was no factory furniture and not coming up with much..
There is a good discussion here of the time it would take but nothing on prices, now given that a cabinet maker should probably make some labor amount similar to the people that may want to buy the thing I guess current custom furniture is not far off from what regular furniture must have cost..
Would be interesting to see how people got by when that was the only option.. I'm sure some just ate on super simple kocked together furniture but I bet the middle class spent more money on furniture, furniture was passed down more, etc..
Pleased_to_meet_u · 8 points · Posted at 20:16:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is a big part of your answer. Bedroom furniture frequently went with the children when they moved out. Why? Because it was still in good shape and could be used for more generation.
Almost any bedroom furniture you buy these days won't last two generations. Heck, it's almost a sure bet that it won't last one.
_sekhmet_ · 1 points · Posted at 12:56:30 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
My current bed room furniture is this beautiful cherry wood furniture set my great grandfather made when he was young (1910s-1920s) and hen proceeded to paint this ugly earthy green color because he thought the red was too severe. It's a lovely set of bed room furniture, and despite being around a century old, it's still in amazing shape.
Baneken · 3 points · Posted at 06:18:43 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Might be interesting for you to know then that Sears had their first housing kits and 'factory' furniture in their famed post catalog as early as 1860's and that the first furniture factories were operating at the Benelux countries as early as the late 18th century when steam engine based machinery became practical.
flnagoration · 17 points · Posted at 19:29:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
hahahaha jesus fuck that must be frustrating
bugbits · 13 points · Posted at 19:17:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How did so many people fool themselves into thinking that using pallet wood and cinder blocks is somehow modern and chic?
greenebean78 · 19 points · Posted at 19:31:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Big Pinterest
TastyTastyScience · 14 points · Posted at 19:28:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Because it's fun, cheap, minimalist, and eco-friendly.
SonicSlice · 13 points · Posted at 19:45:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
All of those things sure, but good and lasting isn't one of them
TastyTastyScience · 10 points · Posted at 19:49:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sometimes that's the point. I like owning cheap stuff that I can easily get rid of if I decide to move across the world. It works for some people, and it doesn't for others.
adidapizza · 3 points · Posted at 21:38:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I like owning cheap furniture, especially since so many people get rid of it so quick. With sites like Craigslist you can really find anything at any price range if you put in a few hours.
ChibiHuynH · 8 points · Posted at 20:04:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Those are completely valid points. IMO the guiding factors behind why the pallet wood furniture movement became so popular are cool. The DIY aspect of it is huge, the "perfect imperfections", the fact that it is recycling. All great ideas. Going to a professional furniture maker really defeats the purpose though. Having me make it strips it of all value behind the movement.
locao69 · 1 points · Posted at 22:13:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm amused that I read as you were completely pissed off about pallet wood before and now you say it reasonable as a DIY project.
Aiognim · 5 points · Posted at 23:55:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Because they are completely different situations.
Someone doing DIY with pallet is good for the reasons he agreed are good.
People asking him to use shitty wood on a commissioned project that I assume be puts effort into and is proud of hits a nerve.
seredhras · 3 points · Posted at 19:36:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
People want to be cool, so they try to define what is cool as what they can get. Pallet wood and cinder blocks are easy to get for low cost.
Lesp00n · 7 points · Posted at 20:13:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
To add to this, no your backyard pallet wood pintrest job is not worth $500 on craigslist, you didn't even buy the materials you fucking stole them!
I've been lurking craigslist etc for some inexpensive furniture cuz I'm broke af, and its fucking full of shit that's obviously armature made and made of poor quality material, but its priced like someone like yourself with actual skill made it.
adidapizza · 2 points · Posted at 21:41:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Really? Maybe it's your area? When I've lived in cities there's always been an abundance of cheap furniture on CL--some of it of surprisingly good quality. There used to be a few sites that specialized in used furniture too, I know the one I used closed though...
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 10:42:10 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
*amateur
Lesp00n · 1 points · Posted at 12:41:16 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Damn autocorrect.
[deleted] · 14 points · Posted at 18:55:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
atomhunter · 9 points · Posted at 18:59:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It cost you 8.5 million!? Holy shit
I assume you meant 8.5k instead of 8500k
Funktionierende · 15 points · Posted at 19:49:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oh god, I get the same thing with crochet. I make blankets, mostly - and for a good-sized, weighty, intricate 6'x8' afghan, you're looking at $150-$500 in supplies (ballpark, depending on what yarn I'm using it can go higher) plus four months' worth of my spare time. I'm not selling it to you for $30.
ChibiHuynH · 10 points · Posted at 20:00:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"But I can get a blanket at Goodwill for 10 dollars"
Please be my guest
Funktionierende · 4 points · Posted at 20:34:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes, go right ahead and buy that stained, tattered, machine-knit-by-children-in-a-sweat-shop-fifteen-years-ago blanket from Goodwill. It's not the same thing at all.
scroom38 · 6 points · Posted at 20:24:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Pintrest: "I MADE A VINTAGE RURAL HISTORIC GLUTEN FREE 8FTX 4FT WOODEN TABLE FOR $10 ANYONE CAN DO IT TOO."
Not mentioned: the materials were obtained for free and the work was done by a friend as a favor. We spend the $10 on a bottle of non gmo gluten free paleo vegan craft beer.
0bskurity · 23 points · Posted at 18:23:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My wife is obsessed with pallets lately. She and her trashy parents are all about DIY furniture and are constantly bringing garbage home claiming it somehow can make our lives better
usa_foot_print · 19 points · Posted at 18:46:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My wife and I have got some pallets we have converted into flower gardens. They have turned out pretty cool to be honest.
Lolwhatisfire · 26 points · Posted at 19:18:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Using the wood for a flower bed is cool because it recycles, and hey, it's gonna be outside so why not use the cheaper stuff?
Pallet wood furniture is another story.
daitoshi · 5 points · Posted at 19:45:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't want splinters in my ass
scw55 · 3 points · Posted at 19:46:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Splinters.
TamashiiNoKyomi · 1 points · Posted at 22:58:48 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you google it you can find some nice stuff. It probably just depends on how good of a carpenter you are.
philaenopsis · 1 points · Posted at 19:58:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
ooh that's actually a good idea. I've been looking for a cheap planter that I can put on my balcony since I live on the third floor of an apartment building. Where would one acquire a pallet?
Lesp00n · 3 points · Posted at 20:15:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
To add to the other commenter, retail places. When I worked for a grocery store we technically didn't own the pallets our products came in on but the logistics company wouldn't take all of the pallets back so we constantly had dozens out back.
usa_foot_print · 1 points · Posted at 20:01:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Lots of places to be honest. Lumberyards. Manufacturing facilities. Construction sites.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 22:13:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just keep an eye on craigslist. There's always tons of places looking to get rid of them.
Brancher · 6 points · Posted at 20:22:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Same man it pisses me off. There was a stack of pallets that was left on the property of the house/farm we just bought. So of course she wanted to make some benches out of them which I did and the wood has already warped because its shit wood. Luckily I've already found a guy in town with a bandsaw mill so I can get quality wood to replace the shit pallet bench tops.
philaenopsis · 4 points · Posted at 19:56:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Also, isn't the point of Pinterest DIY furniture so you can... you know do it yourself to save you the price of buying it at the store or getting someone else to do it?
ChibiHuynH · 3 points · Posted at 20:16:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Posted that in another comment. You hit the nail on the head
miatapasta · 3 points · Posted at 19:26:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you don't mind, how did you go about making a living doing this? Sounds like a great job. I'm very handy myself.
TheAltoidsGuy · 3 points · Posted at 20:16:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"Can you do it for 50 dollars?"
SuperHawkk · 3 points · Posted at 22:56:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think all artists/craftsmen can empathize with this. It sucks that laymen often can't seem to wrap their heads around the fact that offering to pay $50 for something that takes multiple days of work (again not factoring in cost of supplies) is more than insulting. I think it mostly comes down to people not realizing just how much time it can take to do something properly.
Anotheraccountdelete · 8 points · Posted at 19:01:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You tell em internet chair man
CaptainSprinklefuck · 3 points · Posted at 19:50:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sounds like you've never made anything.
brodyf · 2 points · Posted at 19:49:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Can you clarify what "shop time" is. As an outsider, I don't understand that distinction. Isn't that where you'd do your work?
ChibiHuynH · 5 points · Posted at 20:00:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I have to rent a storage unit to run my shop. Shop time partly covers rent, tool maintenance, and utilities. Basically my overhead.
brodyf · 3 points · Posted at 20:09:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That makes perfect sense. I guess I was just assuming a home shop.
Lizardrevenge · 1 points · Posted at 20:57:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How did you get into that/where should I start if I like the idea of making furniture?
I have access to tools and plenty of time, but don't know where to start. It's always seemed like a pleasant way to work with my hands, and seems productive as well. Can you give me any pointers?
ChibiHuynH · 1 points · Posted at 23:03:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My go to is make something you want or need. Old dresser need replacing? Start with that. The easiest way to get into this craft is to start with something that's personal to you.
I've been through a curriculum and I can tell you I threw out half of the stuff I made because I only had to do them for marks.
travelingprincess · 1 points · Posted at 21:48:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What type of furniture do you do? All-wood constructions only or are you able to do couches and such also? Do you upholster chairs? I hear that's kind of a bitch.
ChibiHuynH · 3 points · Posted at 22:03:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Depends really. I have my own shop where I do commissions and what not. Those are generally all wood (a combination of particle, ply, and hardwood). At my full time job we make stuff for commercial use. Think store displays for clothing, countertops, stuff that's going to see a lot of wear and tear. That we use a lot of plastic laminates for those. By that I mean we build it out of particle board and then "glue" a decorative and protective coating on. For the displays as well we also have to work with metals and glass
I also really want to learn how to upholster, but I'm currently trying to weld
pointseeker · 1 points · Posted at 19:48:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In your opinion what's the cheapest way to find (new) solid wood furniture that doesn't cost a fortune?
ChibiHuynH · 1 points · Posted at 01:19:48 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Cheap is relative. To be completely honest, I don't know of any retailers that do. Maybe a local boutique furniture store, but still probably not what you would consider cheap.
The reality of it is, solid wood furniture does cost a fortune. In addition to material costs, the amount of time it takes to make a board that's the size of an armoire takes 10 times as long as it does to cut plywood and laminate a veneer onto it.
pointseeker · 1 points · Posted at 15:48:45 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Of course - I just mean relatively speaking. Do you think that amish suppliers offer good value, or not really?
Alternatively, are there non-hardwood materials that you think are still quite good but cheaper? I know for example that some of ikea's line actually uses solid pine (albeit a softer than typical pine).
JoeNapoli97 · 3774 points · Posted at 15:16:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Signalling BEFORE you turn actually lets the other drivers/people know where you intend to go :)
shifty_coder · 1479 points · Posted at 16:23:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Your turn signal should be on before you apply the brakes.
WomanOfEld · 815 points · Posted at 17:10:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
but not when you're a mile away from where you're turning, and there are three other turns in the same direction as you're indicating. don't waste that blinker fluid, it's so expensive and hard to find that so many people don't signal.
edit: NO. blinker fluid is NOT a thing. I'm being what's called, "FACETIOUS". jeez.
-MPG13- · 116 points · Posted at 17:45:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Blinker fluid sounds made up. I don't know enough about cars to say for certain though.
lightfork · 91 points · Posted at 17:55:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah it's an old joke that becomes funnier when someone falls for it. Blinkers are electrical, there is no fluid.
iFuckingHate_Puns · 63 points · Posted at 18:02:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I just started driving recently and I almost texted my mom for an explanation. Thank you for saving me from the shame.
jackflash223 · 27 points · Posted at 18:10:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
God save us all.
lightfork · 8 points · Posted at 18:19:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Where is your sense of adventure, text and see how far it goes :)
Among the thousands of tips, I'd give you two quickly: Remember to always change your oil at regular intervals, and don't neglect your breaks! I can elaborate a little more on the breaks (from my experience) if you need it.
jmoneycgt · 13 points · Posted at 18:38:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
brakes* >_>
Hahahahahaga · 2 points · Posted at 18:44:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The ol' t-less brakets
lightfork · 2 points · Posted at 19:17:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Point noted. I must have been thinking of when you have to break them off into a pile of rubble after neglecting the slide pin.
marilyn_morose · 2 points · Posted at 20:46:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Acquaintance got a used but fairly new (two year old) car from mom. They drove the car for about four years without ever changing the oil. Engine seized in the midst of a trip; car essentially totaled. Mom bought another newer used car for person, yaaay! We are now on year two. I have asked them if they are changing the oil regularly. They say yes, but I don't think so.
lightfork · 1 points · Posted at 01:36:07 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is not the first time hearing such a story. The best one I was told is you can go 50k on an oil change and they just changed a motor - as if they couldn't understand. Check youtube for people dropping the oil pan after and you'll really understand!
I do all my own oil changes, buying oil and filters on sale and stocking up. I agree taking it in is a big hassle sometimes but unless you have an exotic car, they are very easy to do and anyone who puts off doing them should learn to do it themselves.
Funky_Ducky · 5 points · Posted at 18:58:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'd highly suggest learning the basics of how a car works. An unfortunate number of mechanics will take advantage of someone who clearly doesn't know anything about cars. I'm no "expert", but I studied auto tech for a short while and so know how to do most repairs myself. Still have had people try to take advantage of me.
dagreatnate1 · 2 points · Posted at 20:30:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This. I learned how to read the obd2 codes and do basic replacement of sensors and stuff and I have saved a lot of money. I mean, a lot
funkem · 1 points · Posted at 22:20:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Good for you. Not sarcastically, I mean really, good on you for learning new things and building your skills. More people should do this not even to save money, but to just really know enough so that they won't get bullshit.
Just a tip though, don't always rely on the OBDII code to mean what you should fix. Throwing parts at a problem isn't a viable way to make repairs, and can be more costly in the end. Troubleshooting is going to be the most important thing. Say, you get a knock sensor fault code. That may not necessarily mean your knock sensor is bad, it could be something that isn't obvious causing the code to appear. Sometimes more than one code can be associated with one issue, sometimes a single fault code may appear and the problem is not directly correlated with the description. However, sometimes it is exactly what needs to be fixed!
Also note that combustion engines, no matter the size and type, need only three things: air, fuel, and spark. If something goes wrong, check the major components for those three things. You will more than likely quickly figure out what can be happening.
I am glad that you saved money though. It is a great feeling when accomplishing something you would have normally relied on someone else to do!
dagreatnate1 · 1 points · Posted at 02:00:38 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Definitely :)
iFuckingHate_Puns · 1 points · Posted at 23:12:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I have heard about mechanics taking advantage of people. Especially young women like me.
Y'all are gonna judge me, but I don't know how much I can ever figure out about cars. Lucky for me, I have a brother who is very good with cars. I have no intention of ever taking my car to a mechanic without my brother taking a look first, and then he'll probably insist on coming with me. So I'll be okay.
Funky_Ducky · 1 points · Posted at 23:30:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You should at least learn how to change a tire ;) I can respect that
iFuckingHate_Puns · 1 points · Posted at 00:02:44 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
You're right. I'll have to get the dude to teach me.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 18:44:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sounds to me like your muffler bearing might be on the way out, better get that checked
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWdqlpxRA4I
altech6983 · 3 points · Posted at 19:39:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
From the above comments I know more about cars than average. I don't think a lot but some. I saw that and was like wtf, they use a bearing to support the muffler, why. This is stuck in my head.
I am trying to figure out why a bearing, all the while he is talking about the sound different cars muffler's make. I was getting annoyed. I was like, just get to replacing the damn bearing I want to see what it supports. Then what he was saying registered and I was like fuck you, I'm out.
That was a great video.
Rhetor_Rex · 2 points · Posted at 19:11:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A lot of people try to trick new or inexperienced drivers by saying headlight fluid is the same way. Don't fall for that, and never get the cheap stuff!
TamashiiNoKyomi · 1 points · Posted at 23:01:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Why would you do that when you're on the internet already?
Skipachu · 4 points · Posted at 18:57:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Some batteries are electrical and need fluid. Large transformers are electrical and need fluid. Also, large Transformers leak some green fluid when hurt. Being electrical is not a reason to avoid topping off the blinker fluid.
lightfork · 2 points · Posted at 19:38:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If we want to stretch it that far that the electrolyte supports an electrical charge that runs the electrical circuit, sure you got me there :P That is truly a component of battery maintenance which could prevent the blinker not to function although not exclusive.
Or 'regular' when the drain valve busts off :) Just be glad it's under vacuum.
-MPG13- · 2 points · Posted at 17:56:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
See, that's what I figured. what about brake fluid?
MjrK · 18 points · Posted at 17:58:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Brakes are hydraulic. They need fluid.
Stinkydragon · 9 points · Posted at 18:00:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In case your question is genuine, brake fluid is real. When you press the brake pedal, a piston pushes on hydraulic fluid that then pushes in turn on other pistons in your brakes, pressing the pads against a disc connected to the rotating wheel assembly and stops your car.
derpaperdhapley · 9 points · Posted at 18:06:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Brake fluid = real
Transmission fluid = real
Power steering fluid = real
helpful-loner · 9 points · Posted at 18:10:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
engine oil = not real. put vegetable oil where the 710 cap is, it's virtually the same thing.
Druid51 · 7 points · Posted at 18:26:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
lol
geak78 · 1 points · Posted at 19:52:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I beg to differ, although, I can't find the picture of it full. My rear light housing got cracked and the next rain filled it right up to the crack. I didn't notice until I was backing up at night and couldn't figure out why my reverse light was blinking. Got out of the car and the water sloshing around inside was making the light do crazy things.
lightfork · 1 points · Posted at 19:59:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That would not be a "low fluid" problem, more of over filled issue - even worse.
EdgeBandanna · 8 points · Posted at 18:29:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There's a video somewhere of a dad that sends his daughters into an AutoZone to ask for blinker fluid. They were not pleased when they returned.
Raknith · 6 points · Posted at 18:11:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There's a whole youtube video where the guy is explaining how to change his blinker fluid. You'd be surprised how many ppl believe it
rurlysrsbro · 4 points · Posted at 18:49:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oh yea it's definitely a thing, same with a Johnson Rod, many people don't realize that you gotta change those out every time you get an oil change.
bad-rapper · 2 points · Posted at 20:15:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Please god let this be a joke. People cant be this naive (only joking of course). Do you replace the fluid in your lamps at home also?
-MPG13- · 1 points · Posted at 21:24:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yep. I always pour in my fluoride/salt/water/vinegar solute.
bojackobsessed · 17 points · Posted at 18:01:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
let me just top up the headlight fluid
WomanOfEld · 8 points · Posted at 18:31:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
oh make sure you overfill that, that's how your hi-beams stay bright. gotta have those.
doyouevenjazz · 6 points · Posted at 18:33:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You need some elbow grease to help with that?
Sord213 · 10 points · Posted at 17:53:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Actually the government recently subsidized blinker fluid so the prices are falling rapidly. Everyone should stop being cheap with their blinker fluid!
WomanOfEld · 4 points · Posted at 18:32:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
old habits die hard.
Just_OneReason · 6 points · Posted at 18:37:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My rule of thumb is that I only turn once my turn is the only one left. For example, if I've got to turn right and there's three right turns before mine, I only turn on my blinker once I've passed all three. That way there's no confusion on which turn I'm taking.
gpouliot · 4 points · Posted at 17:59:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But definitely more than 2 inches before you start making your turn/lane change. If you don't give people enough time to even notice that your blinker is on, it's about as effective as not using it at all.
_Mephostopheles_ · 5 points · Posted at 19:13:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
... Gavin?
WomanOfEld · 1 points · Posted at 19:35:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I know not this Gavin of whom you speak.
_Mephostopheles_ · 3 points · Posted at 19:36:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Gavin Free, internet personality and professional dumbass. One time he referenced a race car driver who was doused in windshield wiper fluid and lit aflame, but mixed it up and called it headlight fluid. I think you can see where it comes into play here.
WomanOfEld · 1 points · Posted at 19:40:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Right on. Nope, I'm just one of those asshole Jersey drivers.
well, I was born in Massachusetts, so I guess that makes me a Masshole Jersey driver.
shit, I must be the worst driver in the world.
_Mephostopheles_ · 1 points · Posted at 19:41:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well then, I hope I never run into you on the interstate.
WomanOfEld · 1 points · Posted at 19:42:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
(my friends actually say I'm a pretty decent driver.)
grimache83 · 4 points · Posted at 17:42:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Heh, blinker fluid, I just watched that video the other day, poor dumb kid!
Vargolol · 2 points · Posted at 19:27:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Dont get in a crash and have the headlight fluid somehow get spilled onto you either.
Jimboobies · 1 points · Posted at 18:12:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And turn it off after you've made the turn if you're not immediately about to make another turn in the same direction
pm_me_jk_dont · 1 points · Posted at 19:07:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The way I learned it in driver's ed (in Virginia) is that you should turn on your blinkers 4 seconds before the turn if you're going 35+ mph, and 2 seconds before if you're going under 35 mph. I've always found that helpful
jdgrafton · 1 points · Posted at 19:12:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Either five seconds before your turn, or 100 feet before your turn, whatever comes last. That's what I was taught in driver's ed.
Allupual · 0 points · Posted at 18:08:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Wait what the hell they didn't teach us about blinker fluid in drivers ed
Are you fucking with me rn
WomanOfEld · 4 points · Posted at 18:31:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
...no...
flnagoration · 2 points · Posted at 19:28:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
lol
Redarmy1917 · 18 points · Posted at 17:31:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If there is a turning lane, you should be in that lane, before applying the breaks aswell. Not fucking grind down to 5mph on a 35 before moving over into the turning lane.
Xiuhtec · 9 points · Posted at 18:32:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I agree completely, but I have also seen very poorly engineered roads with turning lanes much too short for their speed limits.
BordomBeThyName · 3 points · Posted at 18:57:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Like, the entire east coast.
gregsaw · 1 points · Posted at 18:40:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
For real. There's one near my house on a 55mph road with a turn lane that is maybe 4 or 5 car lengths long.
12thr33 · 2 points · Posted at 19:39:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not always. It depends on if that lane was designed for deceleration or just storage. Sometimes you'll see relatively short turn lanes on rural high speed roads that aren't long enough to safely decelerate in, and you need to brake before the lane begins.
[deleted] · 5 points · Posted at 17:55:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
slam on the brakes, veer into the other lane, then give the two-flash courtesy signal. "I signaled, bro! Why you gotta honk at me for changing lanes!"
you mean there's a better way?
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 17:43:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My favorite situation is when they decide to brake, signal, AND turn all in the span of a single second leaving almost no time to react.
EdgeBandanna · 2 points · Posted at 18:28:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It should also be on before you change lanes.
SPACKlick · 2 points · Posted at 18:50:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The order of any maneuver in a car is
Tulip6983 · 1 points · Posted at 19:09:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You should signal then move into the turn lane, THEN apply the brakes.
iwasthewulrus · 1 points · Posted at 19:13:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
THIS is what most people don't understand. The amount of people who slam on their brakes and then indicate whilst turning. It's drives me fucking insane.
Come_along_quietly · 1 points · Posted at 19:26:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Brakes !?! Pfft. That's for rookies!
/s
Manginaz · 1 points · Posted at 19:26:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is why I just leave mine on all the time.
HtownKS · 1 points · Posted at 20:24:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When your driving, and someone in front of you is signaling they want to get into your lane, let them in. I'm close to not blinking in said situation, because noone seems to respect it anyway.
HtownKS · 1 points · Posted at 20:24:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When your driving, and someone in front of you is signaling they want to get into your lane, let them in. I'm close to not blinking in said situation, because noone seems to respect it anyway.
dabriela · 1 points · Posted at 20:29:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
when I was learning how to drive, I was told that your blinker should be turned on 100-150ft. before the actual turn
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 18:00:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
fast_cherry_bomb · 10 points · Posted at 18:27:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The blinker purpose is to signal to other drivers what your intention is. If you just stop, put blinker on, then turn, no one would have any idea that you needed to turn. Now if you turn your blinker on a few moments before you turned, then started breaking, then turned, other drivers will easily observe what your intention is and give way.
So the whole point is that you are telling others what you are about to do within a reasonable time for them to react if needed. There is no need to use your blinker mid turn because at that point, everyone can see you are turning
guntis · 0 points · Posted at 18:14:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In my country we have law that it must be on before any manuevre. So if you intend to break for a intersection, change lanes, whatever, you must use signaling light.
jmxo92 · 0 points · Posted at 18:14:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This! I wish cops would give out tickets for this. The number of people who slow down, break, start turning, then put on their turn signal drives me nuts. It is such an easy concept to understand that it worries me that so many people just don't get it?
someproteinguy · 119 points · Posted at 17:07:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Of course then they'll realize you're trying to merge in front of them and speed up so you can't change lanes. People are awesome like that.
delacreaux · 11 points · Posted at 18:45:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I will not slow down or accommodate people trying to merge into my lane unless they are using their signal. Especially because there are a lot of people on my commute that cruise in exit only lanes on the right, then swerve into the other lane (no signal) just before they're forced into the exit
Telenike · 8 points · Posted at 19:08:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Similarly, I used to get very upset about people who will ride the thru traffic lane until RIGHT before an exit then cut in, but I've adopted a policy that alleviates my rage and seems fair to me. Broken lines indicating a merge? I'll let you in no matter how late you're trying to merge. Solid lines or worse? Hope someone takes pity on you because you're not getting in here. (Usually the guy right behind me ends up taking pity, which pisses me off because, come on, you're rewarding his bad behavior)
tlease181 · 3 points · Posted at 19:52:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think that's the right attitude and seems to be the way it was intended to work.
Russ3ll · 4 points · Posted at 18:15:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My experiences driving in Philadelphia.
PatrickKanesLawyer · 8 points · Posted at 18:45:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Everybody's experience driving anywhere.
TheShadowKick · 4 points · Posted at 19:11:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I moved from Kentucky to New Jersey a bit over a year ago. It is definitely worse in New Jersey.
JeddHampton · 2 points · Posted at 19:35:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm surprised by how often accidents don't happen in the Jersey turnpike. That highway should have an accident every 10 miles with how shitty driver's tend to be on it. Had to drive a good portion of it once, and I almost got in the accidents.
One guy crossed the lanes to get to the exit cutting me off temporarily but I had to hit the breaks hard. He barely made the turn off.
Another guy decided to speed up the shoulder to press the cars on left most lane. Scared the beejeezus out of me. I wasn't checking the shoulder for traffic...
The other one wasn't as interesting. Just got cut off closely.
This was all one trip. Lucky the ride back was late, so there wasn't much traffic. I hate taking the Jersey turnpike.
TheShadowKick · 3 points · Posted at 19:51:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's what scares me. Kentucky didn't teach me to check the shoulder for traffic. Now I'm paranoid about being rear-ended because I forgot to do it.
I had a fun one in Pennsylvania about a month ago, while driving back to Kentucky for a few days. I'm in moderate traffic in the left lane, going the same speed as the rest of the lane with about two car lengths between me and the guy in front of me. This guy whips around me on the right, shoves his way into the left lane in front of me, and as he's entering the lane slams on his breaks as the traffic slows to a halt. He was breaking before I even knew he was changing lanes, and I had to go from 45 to 0 now with less than half a car length of leeway. I came within inches of rear-ending the bastard.
JeddHampton · 1 points · Posted at 21:52:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The worst part is that you would be deemed at fault. It sucks.
Russ3ll · 1 points · Posted at 20:24:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I've actually encountered mostly courteous drivers where I live in North-East Pennsylvania. Dumb, as in never fucking using their blinkers, but courteous.
Sentrion · 2 points · Posted at 18:35:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is exactly why I signal at the last minute (but I also merge only when I have tons of room - if it's bumper-to-bumper, I'll signal well ahead of time).
Hydroshock · 1 points · Posted at 21:51:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I used to always feel this way, but then also realized it so rarely happens, and if it does, the next car will leave space. But also, got to be confident enough to move, if you need lots is space, it may not be other drivers closing gaps, and you not being confident enough in the size of the gap made for you.
[deleted] · -7 points · Posted at 18:16:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yah this is why you don't signal, or you signal then immediately start the maneuver.
[deleted] · -4 points · Posted at 18:51:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
ComaVN · 5 points · Posted at 18:58:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Thanks for making a crappy situation a lot worse
aj3x · 6 points · Posted at 19:02:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And what does that make you? Who road rages and endangers everyone around you?
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:03:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
TheShadowKick · 8 points · Posted at 19:12:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ok, you're not wrong that they need to properly use their blinkers. But you are wrong to create more problems on top of the problems they're creating.
[deleted] · -4 points · Posted at 18:59:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:01:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Hydroshock · 1 points · Posted at 21:57:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Intentionally causing an accident moves you from basic moving violations of traffic interactions to note criminal territory and getting arrested for assault with a deadly weapon (a vehicle).
So yes... People carrying a gun and using it in that situation is logical. Cool the road rage, you're not in the right.
Spooky87 · 9 points · Posted at 18:10:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It seriously annoys me how many people fail to realize this. Recently, a friend of mine asked her grandpa why he didn't use turn signals and he replied "because it's no one's business where I'm going". Enraging..
7thgradet3acher · 22 points · Posted at 17:23:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes but then they speed up trying to fuck you
wtf-m8 · 6 points · Posted at 18:35:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's when you just let it go. Let them get ahead, I'd rather be far away from the dicks than have them riding my ass. I try to always signal at least 2 seconds before I change lanes. I'm rarely in that big of a hurry.
anomalous_cowherd · 7 points · Posted at 17:41:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I speed up to get out of their blind spot, because most people these days only signal just as they turn the steering wheel.
If I'm not already alongside them then I stay back like sane people do.
[deleted] · 9 points · Posted at 17:51:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
anomalous_cowherd · 10 points · Posted at 17:58:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If I'm already alongside, and I'm in the faster lane then that just confuses everybody and gets me a car up the backside.
That's not happening when they just need to wait for a gap.
[deleted] · -1 points · Posted at 17:59:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
anomalous_cowherd · 9 points · Posted at 18:03:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Umm. I'm overtaking him when he puts his indicator on. That's what that lane is for.
[deleted] · -3 points · Posted at 18:04:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
eild · 6 points · Posted at 18:09:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The right lane?
[deleted] · -1 points · Posted at 18:13:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
eild · 1 points · Posted at 18:26:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Once again, the right lane? The exit lane? The slow lane? The "slower traffic keep right" lane? The lane you should be in? Either you are trolling in a really stupid way or you are just ignorant.
[deleted] · -1 points · Posted at 18:29:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
eild · 2 points · Posted at 18:34:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Different countries. My bad. I assume you are right then?
anomalous_cowherd · 0 points · Posted at 18:40:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think I follow you on an overtaking lane at 50mph on a 70mph road every morning, because you're planning to turn right in a mile and a half after two roundabouts and a set of traffic lights, and you're not confident you'll be able to change lanes later.
Silver people carrier? Is that you?
dot-pixis · 4 points · Posted at 17:15:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Also, seeing someone put on their turn signal does not mean you need to speed past them on the side they're signaling to switch to.
Crimsai · 3 points · Posted at 18:00:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My driving instructor always told me 'only signal when you're ready to move' when changing lanes, so I always wait for a gap, put my indicator on, then move a second or two later. Is that wrong? Obviously different when it comes to turning off the road.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:12:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's called defensive driving. By waiting for a gap, you are not forcing other cars to move out of your way. But this doesn't always work. If you're driving a long vehicle like a truck (especially transports) or a limo in moderate or heavy traffic, you will never find a gap big enough, so by signalling you're saying, "hold up for a second, I need to change lanes". Where I live (Toronto area), most people respect that if you're driving a truck, but not if you're driving a car.
appleburn · 1 points · Posted at 21:04:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is absolutely the correct way to do it.
kinder-egg · 3 points · Posted at 19:50:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Me every time I drive:
IF ONLY THERE WERE SOME WAY FOR YOU TO INDICATE TO ME WHERE YOU WERE INTENDING TO GO
ManOfHart · 9 points · Posted at 17:22:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This does not apply to BMW drivers though, because us common folk should just learn how to get out of the way without troubling the BMW driver to flip a switch.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:17:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm doing a tally in my head to see how many BMW drivers don't signal.
hf1693fx · 2 points · Posted at 17:37:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And pls signal when you're about to change lanes on the interstate.
AdamsDJ · 2 points · Posted at 17:45:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is actually illegal in California.
/s
Poxsyn · 2 points · Posted at 18:07:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Rule of thumb for me is if I can tell you're going to turn before you actually signal and turn then you did it wrong
DesertRebel · 2 points · Posted at 18:11:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Then proceed to go in that direction. Looking at you Mr right blinker on and then turning left
AFK42 · 2 points · Posted at 18:24:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The bane of my existence is people who turn on their blinker at a traffic light, after the light turns green.
FootloosePie · 2 points · Posted at 18:32:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My SO would be on the highway and want to change lanes, but not put on her turn signal. She would then get frustrated when no one would let her over. I explained (and then reminded) that if you don't have your turn signal on, they have no idea you need to get over.
MarsupialMadness · 2 points · Posted at 18:59:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In a lot of cities I've driven through, people take that as a means to block you in and ignore you. Because they don't know what those flashing lights on your car mean anymore. (I assume.) You actively have to out-asshole them with your driving to actually get where you're going at all and I fucking hate it.
Hell the last time I was in pittsburg during bumper to bumper traffic, I had this beetle trying to merge in front of me by drifting into the vicinity of my front wheels. No signal, no speeding up to get in front of me. Just "Hey slow down so I don't wreck into you with my stupidity and clog up this tunnel and potentially kill you with the semi truck directly behind you that you're trying to stay in the visibility of"
Justagreewithme · 2 points · Posted at 19:28:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yup, that why you don't signal until you start turning, otherwise they know your intentions and try to block you out.
vegan8r · 2 points · Posted at 19:29:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Right, but in California this just means the other drivers will speed up to not let you in
IncognetoMagneto · 2 points · Posted at 19:37:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Where I'm going is private!
Vlyn · 2 points · Posted at 19:37:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When we're talking about driving: Safety distance and no excessive speeding would get rid of 90% of accidents. Every time some nutjob sticks to my bumper I think: When I have to emergency brake due to anything in front of me, he'll ram into me. Three times by now I've actually had to fake brake in an emergency to give the moron behind me time to brake (And I could still stop in time due to 3-5 seconds safety distance).
Oh and overtaking in corners / illegal overtaking.
juvily · 2 points · Posted at 19:39:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't understand this at all.
But I've learned over time that if someone is going at least 5mph under - especially more - then most likely they're about to turn.
If I have a decent amount of space between me and the next car and the car beside me is moving weird, or a car is speeding up beside me, then I should be ready for a person that might not signal.
But fuck you if you start hitting your brakes and signal AS YOU'RE TURNING. Why..
Bridgeru · 4 points · Posted at 17:49:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
As a pedestrian, I hate people who don't signal. Before I moved, my walk to/from Uni made me cross a road with a roundabout (showing my Irishness here), South went to the local Uni/Industrial area, East went to a local seaside tourist trap town (and had the entrance to a chain supermarket on it), West went into the city proper, and North to the area of town that's residential heavy. I had to cross on the east side, and it always frustrated me that no one EVER indicated because, y'know, it being a roundabout they could be going anywhere. After getting cut off three or four times in a row by a car you thought was going into town/back home, I was so frustrated I ended up going home and beating my son with jumper cables.
fast_cherry_bomb · 2 points · Posted at 18:31:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Hang on, I think I heard something about this before...
Anthony12125 · 1 points · Posted at 20:06:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Do pedestrians not have the right of way in Ireland?
Bridgeru · 2 points · Posted at 20:29:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
They do but you know the phrase " "They had the right of way" is written on a lot of people's tombstones". Lots of drivers ignore it.
Xaxxon · 4 points · Posted at 18:03:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
most people use blinkers, you have massive confirmation bias.
lemon_tea · 2 points · Posted at 17:50:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That way they can quickly fill in that space and prevent you from moving.
I still use my indicators. But I use them as indicators, not requests for permission. If you speed up to be an asshole after I signalled, cover your brakes b/c I'm coming over.
IanT86 · 2 points · Posted at 17:43:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Jeeze - I've just spent some time driving in North America and I don't understand what the threshold is for your testing here. I don't mean to be a dick, and I am generalizing for the story, but on the whole I've never seen this level of terrible driving.
You guys are ultra aggressive to the point it just makes accidents more likely, you don't give people room (which would speed up the traffic) you don't indicate before you move, you have a strange system where I'm never sure if pedestrians or the vehicles have the right of way....
The roads are so, so simple compared to Europe and everyone is in an automatic...I have no idea how things can be this bad.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 18:41:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
IanT86 · 1 points · Posted at 19:07:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm actually in Canada at the moment and have seen exactly what you say first hand.
Thing is, if you drive in Europe there are a lot more variables on the road - the traffic systems radically alter from place to place, the roads can be very tight, often cities mix between one way systems and no car lanes, there are much higher levels of bikes on the road (London for example), there are much higher level of things like round-a-bouts, essentially a lot more to think about, there are far more taxis, buses etc the overall system is far more complex as it is built on roads and networks designed for a fraction of the populous who were driving horses and carts, but now have to deal with huge traffic flows.
In North America - for the most part - it is a fairly steady stream of traffic, at a far lower speed to Europe, on roads built relatively recently so they are wide, straight and easy to navigate. However, with all that said I've still seen such abysmal driving and honestly dangerous behavior all over.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:18:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
IanT86 · 1 points · Posted at 21:19:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Hmmm I've lived in North America for nearly 4 years and have travelled a fair bit during that time. You're right, I've not seen all of America, but I've seen a fair amount. Equally I've lived and travelled all over Europe and Australia, so have a fairly good perspective on things.
Just my opinion at the end of the day, from what I've seen here it is a far less complex system with far worse driving standards.
Skynflute · 1 points · Posted at 17:41:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
THAT'S what those blinkey thingys are for!?
newsfish · 1 points · Posted at 17:41:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But it's a threat to my standing in the great Nascar race that is commuter traffic ! The only proper response is to speed up into your blind spot to prevent your challenge, lest you arrive at the next red light seconds before me!
el_monstruo · 1 points · Posted at 18:08:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Leaving your signal on though does not.
daninjaj13 · 1 points · Posted at 18:11:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And gives them ample opportunity to try to speed around you before you try to change lanes, with absolutely no ability to judge trajectories
LOLICON_DEATH_MINION · 1 points · Posted at 18:13:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Around here that's just letting the enemy know your plans.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:16:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I learned to take a quick look at the vehicle's tires when I feel like they might switch lanes but they're not signalling. It does work most of the time. People annoys the fuck out of me.
2hoodrich4me · 1 points · Posted at 18:19:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
AND if you're sitting stopped, waiting to pull out, if your use a turn signal, I can know where and when youre turning and avoid you and give you space to pull out. Or you can just sit there for 10 min then peel out without looking and dann near hit my ass
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:24:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I live in Louisville KY and if you signal to change lanes people will accelerate so that you don't cut them off. I moved here a year ago and it's pretty bad. I've lived in 5 places and this has to have the most aggressive/inconsiderate drivers I've seen. My insurance premiums increased by 33% when I moved here. The sad part is that I've become more aggressive when driving since moving here because if you don't people will quite literally drive all over you. I'm going to be buying a dash cam very soon.
secret_tsukasa · 1 points · Posted at 18:25:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
somtimes i just straight up forget and i put it on to let people "oh shit, sorry, i know it's too late, but this is what i would have done"
i know, silly.
anon_e_mous9669 · 1 points · Posted at 18:39:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I know this is right in theory, and I agree with it. Unfortunately, where I live 100% of people (yes, even Gandhi would do this if he lived here) in my area will see your turn signal and accelerate to close any gap so you can't move over a lane.
As a result, I signal AS I'm coming over instead of giving warning. If that makes me a dick, sorry, that's what DC traffic will do to you. . .
Mewn · 2 points · Posted at 20:29:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Why would anyone ever do that? What do you gain from doing that?
anon_e_mous9669 · 2 points · Posted at 20:53:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't know, I try not to drive like that, but I think being stuck in minimum 90 mins of traffic every day makes you really fight for basically every inch on your commute.
It helps that I don't have to drive in rush hour anymore. . .
BiomedicalAK · 1 points · Posted at 18:40:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But when I'm speeding and you're tailgaiting the shit out of me, applying the brakes first is more fun.
loogie97 · 1 points · Posted at 18:58:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Then they might speed up and cut me off.
cat_of_danzig · 1 points · Posted at 19:00:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The downside is that signalling your intention causes some drivers to close the gap you were intending to move into.
Hype_Man · 1 points · Posted at 19:00:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This just gives them more time to block you from merging into their 'personal' lane.
shenanigins · 1 points · Posted at 19:11:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I love when people wait until there is an opening to turn it on and merge. Why not turn it on and maybe someone will give you the space instead of waiting for an opportunity.
AllHailDictatorObama · 1 points · Posted at 19:11:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So they can quickly block the space you are trying to move into?
blahblahrasputan · 1 points · Posted at 19:20:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Hence why it's called an "indicator" in many countries. You indicate your intentions you don't indicate something you've done.
Torragg · 1 points · Posted at 19:31:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I almost died the other day because of this.
titusmoley · 1 points · Posted at 19:46:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You'd think their blinker fluid tank is leaking. 😉
Ninja_Arena · 1 points · Posted at 19:52:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Whuuuuuuu!
Yeah, would love to have more people follow the actual road rules
terraexcessum · 1 points · Posted at 19:54:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Why isn't this the top comment?
Geta-Ve · 1 points · Posted at 20:01:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I find most people don't do this because they think nobody will let them in if they put their signal on too early. So most people feel like they have to sneak in or jump in to the lane instead of smoothly merge when an opening is given.
And hey. You know what? If you miss your turn or exit, no big fucking deal! There are others. When almost everybody is a walking GPS, then nobody should be lost. Or, you know, just use the cardinal directions.
No_Orange_Zone · 1 points · Posted at 20:02:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Where I live, when the other car sees your signal, they speed up so you can't get infront of them, no matter how far away they are. And if you do get in, they make sure to pull up behind up horns blazing
DurraSell · 1 points · Posted at 20:07:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
/s
Nah, turn signals are for narcissists who have to be the center of attention.
Hey Everybody! Look At ME! I'm turning here! See me turning!
/s
mr_lab_rat · 1 points · Posted at 20:42:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't understand. What do you mean by signaling?
radome9 · 1 points · Posted at 20:53:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What, and spoil the surprise?!
appleburn · 1 points · Posted at 21:02:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
but make sure to turn it off when you complete your merge and not keep it on for another 15 seconds. Making me brake because I think you're trying to get into the lane I'm in regardless of our speed differences, then the person behind me almost rear-ends me. Then the accordion effect happens and morning traffic has just been born...also if you're trying to move into another fast lane during traffic (not out of necessity), wait for an opening > signal > then move. If you just keep you signal on, expecting someone to slam on their brakes and let you in then you're asking for an accident...when I see a blinker like that I'm assuming they either want to get rear-ended and $$ from an insurance claim, or they're just not paying attention and will merge without really looking..This is why HOV lanes always have accidents - you're going 10mph merging into a lane ppl are driving 60mph, don't barge in thinking you have a right just because your blinker is on. /rant
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 21:21:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In NZ, they're called an "indicator" rather than "turn signal". The idea is that you will indicate where you're going to go, then go there.
...although I suppose that applies to "signal" too...
mvrander · 1 points · Posted at 10:48:02 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Super cars 2 on Amiga had quiz questions in between races. One was:
What is the correct order to make a turn?
Mirror, signal, manoeuvre.
Signal, mirror, manoeuvre
Manoeuvre, brake, crash, hospital.
WholelottaLuv · 1 points · Posted at 15:42:36 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
but, in CA at and NY from my experiences, this also signals other drivers to speed up or slow down and stay next to you so they can cut you off before you can get in front or behind them.
WombatBeans · 1 points · Posted at 18:44:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, cutting me off and THEN indicating it just feels like tripping someone and then stepping on them. Got the message when you cut me off there pal, but thanks I guess.
Also the belief that using your indicator means you can go/ are free from wrong doing. I've had more people than I can count almost plow into me and then look insulted when I honk at them because they had their indicator on. That thing isn't magical, it just informs other drivers of your plans, it does NOT remove those other drivers from this dimension freeing you to do whatever you want.
Schizo2 · -6 points · Posted at 17:13:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Someone has to comment on turn signals in every thread. Way to be a basic bitch.
UndeadKurtCobain · 0 points · Posted at 16:56:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My mother yells when people do this shit fuck people like that
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 17:22:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Maybe in the future we can use that brain wave reading tech to control blinkers. It already only takes a very small movement of one finger, but that's too much effort for most people.
V1ncentgais · 0 points · Posted at 17:53:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You have no business knowing where im about to go.
slayer_of_idiots · 0 points · Posted at 18:12:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Maybe I don't want them to know, because then they'll just accelerate and won't let me over.
beaverteeth92 · -1 points · Posted at 18:30:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The topic was "90% of people don't understand", not "90% of BMW drivers."
Anton97 · 1 points · Posted at 19:25:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The topic was "what do 90% of people not understand", not "what do 90% of redditors love to circlejerk about."
beaverteeth92 · 1 points · Posted at 19:32:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
k
reset_switch · -1 points · Posted at 18:50:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
:)
carlsaganblessyou · -6 points · Posted at 17:45:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you're relying only on other drivers' turn signals for the traffic conditions around you, then you're a terrible driver.
Barack-YoMama · 189 points · Posted at 15:22:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Importance of Mental Health
Prince_Polaris · 10 points · Posted at 21:26:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You said it. Break your leg and get a cast, everyone thinks it's cool and is supportive. Develop depression and suddenly you're faking it. You're just in a phase. You'll be fine. Seems we're only allowed to get injuries that you can see :/
Renaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa · 2 points · Posted at 00:30:05 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
"Get over it"
Prince_Polaris · 3 points · Posted at 04:25:55 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
"You're just being Lazy"
re_nonsequiturs · 3 points · Posted at 21:55:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This breaks the trend, but I love how everyone has just upvoted and moved on. Like they're all saying "yep, says it all that does".
AdamDeKing · 135 points · Posted at 17:13:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How does it feel to be left handed, only 10% of people are left handed, so 90% don't understand.
webmistress105 · 19 points · Posted at 18:04:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
SINISTER SOCIETY🤜
Kronos_PRIME · 7 points · Posted at 19:07:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Never left out.
[deleted] · 15 points · Posted at 19:33:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
InsertEvilLaugh · 3 points · Posted at 02:03:00 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Junior year, first semester finals, I had to write essays for all four classes I had for A days, English, History, NJROTC, Economics. I had to wash off the edge of my hand after the second and fourth one due to all the graphite on it.
IAmAFlightlessBird · 11 points · Posted at 20:51:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Writing with sharpie sucks, everything smears.
Check marks are the worst unless done backwards.
I could never play catch with a baseball at a friend's house.
Eating at the dinner table I have to sit on the left end or else I bump elbows.
Every time someone tries to teach me something (golfing stance, throwing a ball, etc) I have to figure how to do it backwards (opposite?) or they show me how to do it backwards and it's awkward.
I FUCKING HATE SCISSORS. FUCK.
In some cases you simply just have to learn to use your right hand to make things easier (e.g. using scissors, ffs..). I've had to learn to play guitar and violin righty because nobody owns a lefty guitar (It's nice to be able to just pick one up wherever) and I can't join an orchestra with a lefty violin.
mrs_dalloway · 3 points · Posted at 22:02:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm cross-dominate and do everything requiring a "stance" backwards. It sucks. Especially in yoga class.
SANTAAAA__I_know_him · 2 points · Posted at 04:09:05 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
But at least you won't drop your change at the drive thru.
MostlyAngry · 3 points · Posted at 18:30:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Why is this important?
AdamDeKing · 2 points · Posted at 18:43:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Damn you and your mostly angry attitude!!
Sad-thoughts · 3 points · Posted at 19:59:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm a lefty! Hello 👋🏾
_Nerex · 1 points · Posted at 23:38:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You posted an emote of a right hand...
Sad-thoughts · 3 points · Posted at 23:47:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
90% of people don't understand there isn't a left handed waving emoji. 👋🏾bye bye
_Nerex · 2 points · Posted at 23:49:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sorry! I rarely use emojis so I assumed that you had used the wrong one. Sorry :(
Sad-thoughts · 2 points · Posted at 23:51:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's cool. And now you've learned something new. 😉
driago · 2 points · Posted at 20:01:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Here's your left handed upvote.
baekadelah · 1 points · Posted at 20:15:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm both so what percent am I
Mechasteel · 1 points · Posted at 00:15:37 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I always thought there was something sinister about left-handed people.
SadGhoster87 · 1 points · Posted at 01:46:40 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Really hard to play instruments since they're all designed for righties.
Impregneerspuit · 1 points · Posted at 16:07:30 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
how it feels? i don't know.
understand? you use your hand that is not your right hand for more things.
ScrawledItalix · 1 points · Posted at 19:16:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ha ha! I am in the top 10%!
And btw I mean it's fine. It was a little irritating trying to figure out how to shake hands since I instinctually gesture with my left hand but other than that it's mostly ok.
Makefunofeveryone · -1 points · Posted at 20:00:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I've felt what it feels like to be left handed. All you have to do...is do things left handed...
Seharrison · 1005 points · Posted at 15:41:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The space I leave between me and the car in front of me is not for others to pull into and then immediately stop, slow down, or turn without a signal. Its called proper following distance!
CaLLmeRaaandy · 74 points · Posted at 18:29:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm pretty sure every single person I know that drives, tailgates. I hate riding with other people.
Zjackrum · 31 points · Posted at 19:00:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well of course they tailgate - if they don't, they get cut off!
omegian · 16 points · Posted at 19:35:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Meanwhile if I slow down and signal, nobody will let me in. For miles. Swoop and brake stomp it is then...
introspeck · 6 points · Posted at 21:32:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I used to tailgate. My daughter tailgates now.
These days I find it's simply less mental effort to follow at a distance, that way every brake light isn't an immediate emergency. Maybe I'll brake, maybe I'll just avoid altogether, but at least the distance gives me the option. Plus I have a better idea of what's in front of the car ahead of me.
[deleted] · 9 points · Posted at 19:57:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
ZOMG. When I was a teenager, you know the age when people "think they're immortal"? I had to ride with one of my departed relative's people in Massachusetts. This guy was glued so tight to the bumper of the car in front of us I could give a back rub to their passengers. I thought I was going to die.
lazarus870 · 15 points · Posted at 18:30:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ahhhhh. One of my cars is a stick and I leave a little space and people nose in. I gotta ride the clutch and gun it in first to keep it from happening in rush hour traffic.
philaenopsis · 17 points · Posted at 19:51:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Related - when a line of cars are at a stop light and they creep forward so now there's like a whole car's length between you and the car in front of you, but you drive stick so you don't feel like putting it in gear just to move forward 10 feet. Then the car behind you honks at you to move forward. It's a stop light, we're going to start moving at the same time and being 10 feet closer isn't going to help anything!
JacobeyWitness · 8 points · Posted at 20:16:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
To add to that...when you drive standard, stop on a hill, and people pull up behind you. Stop at a normal distance then start to creep up as they get impatient. Your start goes from casual to better be perfect real quick.
PositivelyEzra · 3 points · Posted at 21:16:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Also known as pop that E-Brake, start accelerating til you feel the pull and then let the E-Brake out. Only reserved for the most terrible situations. Those and my driveway cause it's super steep and I get out to open the garage door.
ER_nesto · 0 points · Posted at 22:22:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's just a hill-start?
Do you guys not have roads that require this normally?
PositivelyEzra · 2 points · Posted at 00:53:43 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Unless there's someone behind you about to kiss your bumper you can get away with pretty much anything else by just goosing it.
ER_nesto · 1 points · Posted at 10:07:21 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
My car would just stall, it's only got a shitty one litre
Seharrison · 2 points · Posted at 23:52:59 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
This 100%
janej0nes · 3 points · Posted at 19:50:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
same; I leave space so that I can cruise and hopefully not even have to shift into first. honestly, though, driving in southern California, it barely matters how many cars edge in front me. they rarely ever make it past my line of sight for the whole 30 mile commute anyway.
[deleted] · 14 points · Posted at 18:58:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[removed]
janej0nes · 5 points · Posted at 19:51:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I feel for you. I watch the way some drivers tailgate motorcycles and it makes me cringe. stay safe.
Seharrison · 2 points · Posted at 23:20:00 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I try to give motorcycle drivers extra room, especially when I stop behind them, just in case the idiot behind me hits me.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 23:38:49 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
[removed]
Seharrison · 2 points · Posted at 23:47:19 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
My brother rides motorcycles and had a serious accident because someone didn't stop behind him at a light. He was okay. Thankfully he was wearing a helmet, jacket, and gloves. But since then, I do my best to watch out for motorcyclists.
CatNigga · 27 points · Posted at 17:24:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Welcome to the streets.
Saphazure · 18 points · Posted at 18:43:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Thanks for the warm welcome, CatNigga
CatNigga · 6 points · Posted at 18:45:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You're welcome 👍🏽
HuecoTanks · 14 points · Posted at 19:03:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Gaaaahhhh!!! This! This! A thousand times, THIS!!! I'm an extremely cautious and patient driver, and I frequently get cut off by ignorant fools that nearly cause an accident just for a few extra seconds.
somethingmysterious · 7 points · Posted at 19:46:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Don't you just love it when the car behind you decides you're going too slow, cuts off into the little space between your car and the one in front, and slams on their brakes, continuously tailgating the car in the front? I do.
janej0nes · 9 points · Posted at 19:53:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
sometimes when I'm feeling petty, i'll gun it once they lane change so that they can't get in front of me. well, mostly it's to be petty; sometimes it's honestly just because I don't want to be behind a tailgater and be stressed out about whether they're braking because of tailgating or because traffic actually stopped ahead.
PositivelyEzra · 1 points · Posted at 21:18:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oh yes. Fun story, I want to go faster too. I just want to be safe about it. But thanks for not taking into account that I'm not actually going slower than the guy in front of me.
bigblackkittie · 18 points · Posted at 18:03:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
i wish people understood this. where i live, if you leave more than a car length's space between yourself and the car in front of you, that space will get taken unfortunately
j_from_cali · 13 points · Posted at 18:51:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I've seen a line of 10 cars driving with a spacing of about one car length between them at full highway speeds. No exaggeration. That works most of the time.
The_Comments_Lie · 5 points · Posted at 19:16:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
because if they don't someone going slower than the group will slip in the middle fucking everyone behind them over.
drakecherry · 5 points · Posted at 20:22:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oh god, You might lose 3 mins on your trip!
j_from_cali · 2 points · Posted at 19:31:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"works most of the time."
poweruserofuserland · 2 points · Posted at 19:42:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It has worked all the times that they didn't end up in a ten-car pile-up. That's almost all the times!
XandraHart · 3 points · Posted at 19:14:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I second this, but in regards to larger commercial vehicles. That 20-50 ft of space the driver leaves between his large truck and the vehicle in front of him is the distance he needs to react if shit hits the fan in front of him. It's not there for you to cut him off and then drive like you have no brain matter between your ears. If you do this, you fail to realize that you are in fact nothing more than a nat sitting in the barrel of a shot gun for two reasons. (1) The front of a large truck is a blind spot, and (2) if brakes need to be applied quickly for whatever reason, you will lose by being run over by said truck.
janej0nes · 3 points · Posted at 19:56:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
a month or so ago, I had a large truck tailgating me aggressively (I was going the same speed as traffic in front me, I just had left a few car lengths in front of me since I knew traffic had a tendency to just come to a full stop out of nowhere). sure enough, traffic in front of me went from 60mph to a full stop and this truck almost plowed into me because he needed more time to brake. it was terrifying and he continued to tailgate me or would pull up next to me and lay on his horn at me the rest of the commute.
edit: used the wrong "brake" ><
ingloriousbaxtr · 3 points · Posted at 20:01:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Jesus. Did you call the police? Or the company he drives for? edit* I realized you said "large truck" not "semi"
janej0nes · 1 points · Posted at 20:36:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
yeah wasn't a semi, but was definitely commercial. looked like a really large moving truck, but had no distinguishing logo. he never got in front of me, so I never saw the back to see if there was a number or anything; he just would tailgate me or if there was space in the lane next to me, he'd pull up next to me and just harass me.
ingloriousbaxtr · 2 points · Posted at 20:51:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's so fucked. People like that are just accidents waiting to happen. I;m glad it didn't escalate.
Jnk1296 · 3 points · Posted at 20:15:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Situations like this make me want to just hit the brakes a little harder than normal just to teach the assholes a lesson. Traffic stopped in front of me and I had to react, idiot behind me slammed into me because he doesn't know how to drive. New car for me, citation and insurance premium raise for idiot, all is good.
sigh If only the world actually could work that way.
edit: the above is a hypothetical. It did not actually happen.
janej0nes · 1 points · Posted at 20:38:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
i witnessed an accident like that, four cars were involved and the only reason I wasn't involved was because the guy behind me wasn't tailgating me. I felt bad watching him get hit because of three tailgaters behind him. sorry to hear about your accident, I hope you weren't too badly hurt.
speedylenny · 3 points · Posted at 19:21:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I mean, people need space to change lanes, right? You just adjust to create a safe following distance again.
ingloriousbaxtr · 5 points · Posted at 20:04:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I always feel stupid when people talk about this sort of thing becuase I don't understand how people are supposed to change lanes otherwise.
An ex of mine would go into a rage every time someone did that to him and I'm just sitting there thinking "well, that guy just needed to turn into the parking lot. I don't see the big deal"
I've always felt, as long as they're not cutting me off or slamming on their brakes than I don't really care
TheFearedTurtle · 3 points · Posted at 20:17:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I agree with you. I would really like to know how everyone who disagrees here would switch lanes. I understand the frustration, but what is one supposed to do? I sense some hypocrisy going on here.
Seharrison · 2 points · Posted at 23:26:28 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I get needing to switch lanes and I happily let folks in when they use a signal. My issue is when there's little space between me and the car in front of me and people don't use a signal to indicate they need over. Then I'm forced to slow down or slam on my brakes to avoid hitting the person who unexpectedly cut over in front of me.
pethatcat · 2 points · Posted at 19:07:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
God, yes. Thank you.
oRac001 · 2 points · Posted at 19:11:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Since we are talking about following distance: fuck tailgaters.
Seharrison · 2 points · Posted at 23:34:50 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Seriously! I can't go any faster than the cars in front of me!
TheMarkHasBeenMade · 2 points · Posted at 19:28:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Was driving on the highway yesterday and this crazy asshole decided he wanted to pass in the right lane and dart into that tiny space between the left lane cars. We were all doing 80, there was no reason for this jerk to be doing that except to be a massive asshole. Nearly caused like three accidents in 15 minutes.
Better believe I rolled down my window and gave him the long obvious middle finger when I had the opportunity.
Obviously I'm still salty about it though. I hope that jackass got pulled over and arrested for reckless driving.
juvily · 2 points · Posted at 19:35:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I hate that, at considerable speeds, I leave an average of a car length's distance between me and the next person.
Does not mean I want that gap actually filled by a car.
I like to have space in case the person in front of me does a hard brake, so I can notice that shit and have the space to slow down and stop if need be. Not so I can slow down...then brake hard because you decided to merge in front of me last minute.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:43:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I can't wait for self-driving cars...
Onceinabluemew · 2 points · Posted at 20:26:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I like to call proper following distance "the idiot vacuum." Let's see how many idiots I end up sucking up.
share_the_groove · 2 points · Posted at 21:01:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I also exercise the - press the break just enough for the break lights to engage but not slow the car down - method to get a tailgater off my ass. This is very effective when you're anticipating a slow down and you can just feel that the asshole behind you is not going to react until the last minute. A good driver can anticipate the flow of traffic and respect the space around them. a driver's license should be a privilege - tests should be more challenging and you should be retested. alright im done.
Seharrison · 1 points · Posted at 23:41:11 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
If I'm being tailgated aggressively and there isn't anyone behind the person tailgating me, I just take my foot off the accelerator. Its passive aggressive, I know, but it forces them to slow down gradually.
WombatBeans · 4 points · Posted at 18:52:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You probably live in the same area (or at least state) as me. Following distance and stopping distance (how far away you should be from the car in front of you when stopped) are not things here. Like when you stop at a light you should be able to see the back tires of the car in front of you sitting on the ground at the edge of your hood (I learned this shit in drivers ed), why? Because that way if your foot slips off the brake or you mistake the green arrow for the green light you don't plow into the guy in front of you. What do people do instead? Get so fucking close to the car in front of them that they're practically touching. I've been rear ended twice because of that shit.
TheJakeMaster24 · 2 points · Posted at 19:38:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's called seizing the gap, YOU BITCH.
anonymous_being · 1 points · Posted at 18:28:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Can so relate.
magicmann2614 · 1 points · Posted at 19:04:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Someone else gets it
J_Jammer · 1 points · Posted at 19:49:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I hate when there's enough space behind me for them to get in and turn they HAVE to get in front of me to turn. I mean mug those fools and honk. Then I get over it. I have lightning road rage. For the moment I'm angry and then on I move.
scaremenow · 1 points · Posted at 19:57:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sometimes, I wish there was some kind of retractable bars you could put up in front of your car (like the schoolbuses have, but longer) so that cars wouln't cut into my safety zone.
Se7enLC · 1 points · Posted at 20:18:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You and I, and everyone else, though. Nobody leaves more space in front of them than what they think they need for proper following distance. So that means that if there's any amount of traffic, anyone trying to merge in is going to have to pick somebody to cut in front of into a space that isn't large enough. And if everyone is predictably exceeding the speed limit, that person deciding they don't want to exceed the limit is going to seem like a real jerk for cutting in front and slowing down.
I say if you don't give people room to merge in front of you, you lose the right to complain when they merge without enough space. Now, when there's 5 car lengths before the car in front of me and they wait for my front bumper before shuffling over, fuck them.
drakecherry · 0 points · Posted at 19:10:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Why not let them use that space to get over? They probably need to turn. Imo streets are more of hallways, than lines.
You should always let people over. Its just safe.
speedylenny · 4 points · Posted at 19:22:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes, we should try to cooperate with other drivers. It's not a race!
The_Comments_Lie · 5 points · Posted at 19:24:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I am not sure where you live, but in New York you will be going 70+ on any of the interstates passing people on the left lane. Right as you are about to pass someone going 65 or slower they will no signal you or signal right as they merge into the lane you are using going 5+ mph faster. That is not safe.
When I see vehicle going faster than me in the lane behind me I merge to a slower lane. When I am thinking about merging into another lane I will slow down and wait patiently for the faster vehicle to pass me and get behind them.
drakecherry · 2 points · Posted at 20:18:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
We could do what if's all day. Like what if you're trying switch to the slower lane and nobody lets you over...
I'm just saying. If you let people over instead of blocking them, things will be safer. Idk why you wouldn't
The_Comments_Lie · 1 points · Posted at 07:49:47 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oh I let them in because I'll loose the front end of my car. Fucking early commute in New York is crazy.
nononowaitok · 1 points · Posted at 18:32:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I like to call it, there isn't enough room on these tiny over crowded streets for all of us, if you don't move it you are going to be stuck standing still. Old west style, two guns ready in their holsters and I am going there whether you like it or not.
catasha7 · 1 points · Posted at 18:26:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
THIS!
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:28:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Part of the reason for leaving that space is so that people can change lanes when they need to. You don't own a lane throughout your whole journey. Slowly tap your brakes and make more room. I'm not condoning people who change lanes without signalling. But enforcing imaginary road rules are equally bad. If there is enough room for a car to get in and you accelerate to stop letting them in, it's called a reactive maneuver and is equally bad
Seharrison · 1 points · Posted at 23:29:20 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Totally agree, just irksome when I'm forced to slam on my brakes to avoid hitting the person who just swerved in front of me with no warning.
[deleted] · 1030 points · Posted at 15:28:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
poo-boys-united · 215 points · Posted at 17:29:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I like this a lot and i think your (totally random) example actually highlights what you're saying really well. A lot of people are just very poor at seeing things from other's perspective.
ThusIsMoi · 2 points · Posted at 21:18:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
...how can you help others empathize with you? I ask coming from being in a loving non empathic relationship.
poo-boys-united · 2 points · Posted at 21:30:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm not sure, that's a difficult question. Can you give me an example of what you mean?
ThusIsMoi · 2 points · Posted at 23:11:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ok. When the gf and I get into arguments it feels like I always have to de escalate the issue (and thus it feels like I am not allowed to feel my feeling fully, no, I have to rationalize the situation instead.) and tell her what to do. Like, she gets overwhelmed and somewhat shuts down. Even when she's the aggressor I have to stop and help her deal with her shit (because I care about her) but she doesn't for me and it feels like it's because empathizing for her (in such situations) is hard. It's frustrating.
Aiognim · 3 points · Posted at 00:14:33 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you figure out how to teach empathy, please fill me in. Then let's go talk to trump supporters.
And not to say your situation was similar to mine, since that is pretty vague, but any relationship where I could never feel my feelings without her getting wound up in her own, were ones I was better off walking away from way before I actually did.
[deleted] · 39 points · Posted at 18:19:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
_urasinner · -25 points · Posted at 19:14:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sorry if I sound like an ass but that's shallow materialism, which is probably why people are trying to convince you to give it up. I've been there, it doesn't make you happy, there are so many other important things in this world. Your fancy car is, to me, a symbol that you don't really give a shit about your fellow man because you could be driving a much more economical car without really sacrificing anything in terms of comfort or convenience or safety and you could have used the money you saved to help people less fortunate than you are. Did you know that if you make $32k in the US you are in the global 1%? Anyone that earns more than $32,000 USD per year is wealthier than 99% of the people in the world... There are A LOT of people, not just in far off lands but almost certainly in your own city who are struggling to meet the basic needs of life...
when I see people driving luxury vehicles or show-off vehicles (you know what I mean) I look down on them and assume they are either unethical or ignorant (most I assume are just ignorant and caught up in their own egos).
Before you write me off by assuming I'm one of those poor people who is just looking for a handout I'm a firmware engineer and I make pretty good money for it... Materialism will make you miserable.
[deleted] · 22 points · Posted at 19:23:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
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_urasinner · -11 points · Posted at 19:44:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I understand why you like these things, pretty much everyone starts off liking fast fun cars and fancy clothes... Few evolve beyond that point though.
(FWIW I of course agree with you about maintaining what you own, like upkeep on your house and yard... that's oddly out of place here and not like the other examples you gave)
[deleted] · 21 points · Posted at 19:51:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
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_urasinner · -9 points · Posted at 20:00:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I value people... their health and well being and happiness.
...and I don't plan to stop looking down on adults who value toys over the well being of others.
You should read a short story called Manna, you can find it here, it's a good story even if you don't agree with me and it's a short read:
http://marshallbrain.com/manna1.htm
IV0lV_Alfa · 11 points · Posted at 20:04:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You're not going to change him. Stop preaching.
dingle__dogs · 5 points · Posted at 20:12:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
so what did you do with the money you saved from purchasing a regular car over a luxury or sports car? Did you spend it all on other people's health and well being and happiness?
and what about one's own well being and happiness? If I derive happiness from a nice car why should I ignore my own desires and live a less happy life?
[deleted] · 4 points · Posted at 20:07:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
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_urasinner · 6 points · Posted at 20:15:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't want you to view this exchange as antagonistic... I just want to talk to you about this.
Why is it that a fancy car makes you happy? You say for entertainment but would an equally fast/capable yet hideous rusty car be just as desirable? If not then perhaps it's not merely for entertainment but as an ego boost. Tell me honestly it has nothing to do with how you think it makes people think of you...
The problem is that people admire people with flashy cars when it's not something admirable at all, and the people who are receiving that admiration were likely, at least partly, drawn to purchasing the car in the first place because they expected to be admired for it. I don't believe for one second that it's just about the fun of driving the car and has nothing to do with how other people think about you because of it.
Our society has a problem idolizing people who don't deserve it while ignoring those who do. I bet you can't tell me the name of the scientist who donated his cure for a disease that killed millions every year even though he could have patented it and made a fortune, but I bet you could tell me the name of most of the top list of the wealthiest people in the world for no reason OTHER than that they are wealthy.
dingle__dogs · 7 points · Posted at 20:21:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
oh my lord you're insufferable. Yes dude you are correct that there are people out there that make major sacrifices in life to help others and it's admirable.
however, people just don't respect those who don't look out for their own self interest. Scroll up there's a top post on this question about how people who lie down and get walked on will her criticized for not being flat enough.
As to why you're insufferable - nobody really wants to live a life of pure frugality and altruism. People have different feelings about how much to be selfish and how much to be selfless.
It's quite rude for you to criticize someone else's position on the spectrum of altruism and selfishness when you obviously can be criticized by someone better than you. Everybody knows they should try and do better but no one needs to be constantly fucking reminded and patronized. Grow up and respect your fellow man.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 20:27:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Knowing that Salk gave away his polio vaccine, something I'm pretty sure they teach in high school, is a weird metric to base your sense of superiority on.
Bill Gates literally changed the world with Windows and is using his enormous wealth to try and eradicate Malaria from the world. Jeff Bezos is in the process of changing how we all consume things. Those seem like valid reasosns to know their names beyond "they're wealthy."
More importantly, how does knowing or not knowing people's names reflect on what you contribute to the world at all?
_urasinner · 3 points · Posted at 20:41:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It was very clearly and obviously an example of how our society idolizes people who don't deserve it while largely ignoring those who do.
Do you disagree that we do this or do you just not like my example?
nittanylion7991 · 15 points · Posted at 19:37:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Perfect example of the original comment's point
guydawg · 15 points · Posted at 19:24:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Judge not lest ye be judged.. that's how it goes right?
yogi89 · 5 points · Posted at 20:02:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
somehow I doubt /u/_urasinner is going to listen
_urasinner · 4 points · Posted at 20:08:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I read it, didn't response because I'm not judging.
I know the vast majority of people are slaves to their ego, blind to the plight of their fellow man, and enamored with their own lust for shiny baubles. It's human nature, we've been this way since we evolved away from our primate ancestors, and even longer still since we see the same behavior in our modern great ape cousins.
I was just trying to nudge someone in the right direction. There are demonstrably better and worse ways to live... and while we have made great progress technology we've basically stagnated psychologically for thousands and thousands of years. We are still mostly tribal, ego-driven apes. One day I hope we will all move on.
I know I sound like a religious zealot but I'm actually an atheist. Ego and lust and greed are primal instincts every bit as real as fear, but while most of us learn to stop being afraid of the dark very few of us ever learn to transcend those other instincts that were instilled in us by evolution (and do note that those instincts DID have an evolutionary purpose but we are beyond those purposes at this point, just like fear of the dark had a purpose that we are also beyond now).
guydawg · 4 points · Posted at 20:10:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You most certainly are judging. Maybe that's not the word you'd choose but you're judging his motivations and whole character based on his desire to have nice stuff
_urasinner · 2 points · Posted at 20:19:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think you mean I'm making assumptions, but humans are not all that unique, and the desire for fancy stuff is fairly common across all of us and the reasons for that desire are pretty well known and understood.
I'm making reasonable assumptions that I am fairly certain are true.
No-Time_Toulouse · 3 points · Posted at 20:16:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Humans are not just spiritual beings; we live in the material world, and derive pleasure in part from material things. To deny that aspect of our nature would be silly and harmful to our well-being. Likewise, rampant materialism uncontrolled by reason and neglect of our spiritual contentment is just as harmful.
Also, the point of the original parent comment is that different people value different things, and that people project their values onto others. It seems that you are projecting what you perceive as the lack of value (not monetary value, but personal value) of material things onto someone whose values are different.
_urasinner · 2 points · Posted at 20:21:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm an atheist...
Except in this case nearly EVERYONE has a desire for fancy things, it doesn't matter if it's cars or clothes or jewelry or electronics, the evolutionary reason for this desire is the same and is well known and understood.
The default case, the thing your born with, is a desire for flashy fancy things. It takes maturity and introspection and understanding to move beyond that.
archlich · 15 points · Posted at 19:29:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's almost as if you're stuck in your own world, like the parent comment said. Your platonic version of unethical and ignorant are completely formed from your own experiences and upbringing.
Maybe for you, but other people have other likes wants and desires in this world.
Would owning a tesla mean that I don't give a shit about my fellow man? It's a luxury car with the highest safety rating of all existing cars, and pollutes by single point emissions. Should I buy a bike? or does steal manufacturing cause too much pollution? Maybe I should walk everywhere. The world is not one extreme or another, it's spectrum of choices.
And the needs of the individual are just as important as the needs of others. Should one sleep in their car because someone sleeps in a cardboard box elsewhere?
Maybe you should try searching for the reasons why you have contempt for other people? You don't know their situation, just as they do not know yours.
Maybe it made you miserable, maybe not. Your own misery may or may not directly correlated to materialism.
Lesp00n · 3 points · Posted at 20:07:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There's a difference in shallow materialism and wanting decent things. The person you are replying to didn't specify, but you assumed they want shit like fancy cars and tailored clothes. I assumed they meant they don't want to drive a beater and they want clothes that actually fit them and express their sense of fashion. Neither of those things have to be expensive or shallow materialism.
I value my vehicle, quite a bit actually. I drive a 5 year old Honda Civic. That's not exactly excessive materialism. It's probably one of the most boring cars out there, both aesthetically and drive-wise. But I value it highly, because its reliable and doesn't look like trash.
You made a shit-ton of assumptions, but valuing material possessions can literally just be not dressing like you're homeless, driving a car that isn't a piece of shit, and maintaining your home so the roof doesn't cave in.
craiger_123 · 3 points · Posted at 21:03:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You are so right!
I don't understand the down votes.
asianhelenkeller · 1 points · Posted at 18:13:24 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Get your money up boi.
Feedmebrainfood · -4 points · Posted at 19:35:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Word! I love your comment and perspective and reading it made me feel less alone in my worldview. Thanks.
_urasinner · 0 points · Posted at 20:03:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
We are an extreme minority... just look at all the downvotes lol
It's really too bad, humanity has come so far technologically but basically stagnated psychologically for thousands of years. It's all still tribalism and ego and greed.
ApertureMusic · 5 points · Posted at 20:30:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You are being downvoted because you are coming across as pompous and self-righteous, not because everyone is sad that their materialistic world view is being challenged.
_urasinner · 4 points · Posted at 20:51:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't believe it's possible to state this message without coming across that way, and it was completely expected that the vast majority would not only disagree but be unhappy with what I said.
ApertureMusic · 3 points · Posted at 21:23:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The message that everyone should take a vow of poverty to serve the poor? Or just not spend money on things you personally don't like?
Can you give me the main thrust of your argument without making value judgments on people's individual likes and dislikes?
guydawg · 1 points · Posted at 15:06:35 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
it's because your message is basically attacking someone
" I think that people who focus on materialistic things are the biggest contributors to pollution and other environmental problems" would be more factual and less douche
"you're a piece of shit for driving a nice car" is just shaming and being an asshole
unless you live in a treehouse, make your own tools, grow your own food, spend all your free time volunteering and recycling, and walk everywhere you need to go? assuming you don't.
Feedmebrainfood · 2 points · Posted at 21:32:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Compassion and not being distracted from our higher selves is our test here. Most people just, sadly, think that everything they perceive in 3 dimensions is everything and important. Idk, real, lasting satisfaction comes from charitable giving. Its scientifically proven, yet everywhere in our culture is consume, consume, consume. Really optimistic that our unpopular opinion will gradually become more accepted the more common knowledge the mental health benefits associated with helping others becomes.
asianhelenkeller · 1 points · Posted at 18:20:01 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ya lets all live frugal like the people from Manila, Philippines. They are CLEARLY enjoying life and what it has to offer. Why indulge in things that make life easier and better for us if we can live like homeless people to give money to the homeless /s.
[deleted] · 19 points · Posted at 18:15:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
[deleted] · 9 points · Posted at 19:13:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Worth noting they're not independent and can be quite tied together. People who value nice clothes will treat someone differently if they don't wear nice clothes, which will impact confidence.
Further, people who don't care about nice clothes are still generally aware that it's a social norm and the average person is judging them on their appearance, so they will conform to at least some degree. Not conforming at all is usually indicative of some sort of deeper problem.
This is just one example, but deviating significantly from social norms in general can have a broader indirect impact and is often caused by deeper issues.
PissedFurby · 6 points · Posted at 18:47:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
definitely a good one to bring up. The example that came to mind first for me, is people who are really social and love interacting with people who don't understand that not everyone is the same.
tranek4real · 15 points · Posted at 17:28:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So you're saying we're not just one homogeneous consciousness?
TheSecretNothingness · 14 points · Posted at 17:36:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's The Egg. Trust me.
probablypurple · 8 points · Posted at 18:35:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Why don't you two kids go run off and play with Unity while Unity and I do some catching up.
Yubuqq · 3 points · Posted at 19:09:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I GOT SOME JORDANS AND I AM SO MUCH BETTER THSN ALL OF YOU HAHHHHAHAHA
blister333 · 3 points · Posted at 17:40:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I've had this realization before..oddly enough as someone who loves nice clothes.
[deleted] · 4 points · Posted at 18:24:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
blister333 · 1 points · Posted at 15:27:13 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
i got one from j.crew several years ago and it's held up well. in general, their quality has gone downhill recently and the last item i bought from there about a year ago is barely together. I would check with sub reddits like frugal male fashion or male fashion as im not a big coat guy. peacoats are usually solid though
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 18:42:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's called the ego and it's there to protect you from going mad.
_urasinner · 8 points · Posted at 19:08:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Or when you go to the gym and you aren't in good shape and think everyone is staring at you...
Literally no one gives a shit about you. No one is looking at you unless you are a human spectacle in some way. Our ego would rather have us be the center of negative attention than acknowledge the reality that people don't even really see you or care about you.
Allegorist · 2 points · Posted at 19:01:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
People don't realize that their experience of reality is subjective. Subjectivity vs objectivity isn't given enough notice in the world in general.
MatrixAdmin · 2 points · Posted at 19:01:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You are describing the Monkeysphere.
http://www.cracked.com/article_14990_what-monkeysphere.html
Nissa-Nissa · 2 points · Posted at 19:50:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Really interesting, thanks
AimingWineSnailz · 2 points · Posted at 19:10:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Reminds me at my history teacher who would claim I had no self-respect due to the poor state of my notes
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 19:31:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Once you're in the professional world, being aware of your appearance is crucial. There are some people who clearly obsess too much over luxury apparel, but for the most part it's healthy to value good looking clothes.
The purpose of dressing nice is not to show off - the purpose is to NOT come across as disheveled and being out of the norm. It's best to dress to your audience and your peers - this provides a simple form of authentication.
Nobody trusts a surgeon who walks into the hospital wearing dirty or ugly clothes. In a business meeting, if you are poorly dressed, you are going to fight an uphill battle just to build raport. The same can be said for dressing overtly flamboyantly. If you are not the top 1% in your field, it's unlikely you can justify dressing outside of the norm. Doing so only hinders yourself and those around you.
I can only speak for men, but dressing correctly is a learned skill that takes time, effort, and experimenting. Many young professionals have very little awareness of how they look to everyone sitting around them. When this is the case, how am I as a manager going to treat them? I cannot trust them to be front of clients or vendors without supervision, because they don't know how to present themselves. They are representing not only themselves, but me and the company itself.
I don't expect all young professionals to have a $25,000 wardrobe of Brooks Bros at the age of 22, but I do expect them to at least learn to wash and iron their clothes, groom themselves, and avoid "unique" items such as a skull and crossbones choker necklace.
People would be amazed at how much something as simple as ironing can do to improve their appearance. You should care about your appearance, because you can be goddamn sure other people will expect you to.
elusiveoddity · 1 points · Posted at 19:43:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I like this quote: "Every man takes the limits of his own field of vision for the limits of the world.
Borracho_mejor · 1 points · Posted at 19:44:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is probably the best comment here, sums everything up perfectly.
Plus the clothes example is spot on for me.
ikeep4getting · 1 points · Posted at 19:52:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Very insightful comment from GooberMcGiggleDick.
Flatulence_Man · 1 points · Posted at 20:09:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"You're just mad 'cause you got no Sauce."
introspeck · 1 points · Posted at 21:37:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My parents both came out of not-quite-poverty and my father's hard work put them into the upper(ish) middle class. My dad loved gardening and wanted to buy a pickup truck, but my mom was horrified by the idea and absolutely refused to let him. In her mind they'd instantly become white trash, at least in the eyes of the neighbors. My dad saw the utility of it, but she only had image in her mind. She wasn't shallow intellectually, but was desperate not to be seen as low-class.
raaaamen · 1 points · Posted at 21:58:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Reading your comment made me remember this really awesome youtube video called Sonder!
I think it touches a little about what you're trying to say!
https://youtu.be/AkoML0_FiV4
BleedingAssWound · 1 points · Posted at 20:02:08 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I've noticed that a lot of people who are suffering, can't see the pain in others.
TheRastaUnicorn · 0 points · Posted at 19:14:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's called empathy, and humans are seeming to lack it more and more. Especially young humans.
Source: Not a robot.
h1ghHorseman · 1519 points · Posted at 14:45:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The biggest issues with AI aren't going to look like Skynet. They'll look a lot more like Dilbert.
We aren't going to see some global system that decides that John Connor has to die... we're going to see five or six completely unrelated, competing, or interconnected in unintended and untested ways, that completely fuck many John Connors over, but since they don't affect a majority of the population in the same way, we'll just accept it... until we're in a deep hole and we start to realize what's going on.
not-quite-a-nerd · 336 points · Posted at 16:15:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Read "The AI Misinformation Epidemic"
JaySlashKay · 11 points · Posted at 18:27:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I googled and could not find, have a link handy?
not-quite-a-nerd · 18 points · Posted at 18:35:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's somewhere on http://approximatelycorrect.com which is full of interesting articles about technology, mostly machine learning
flipkitty · 17 points · Posted at 18:47:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Direct link: http://approximatelycorrect.com/2017/03/28/the-ai-misinformation-epidemic/
BatmansMom · 10 points · Posted at 18:52:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Did he not write this yet? It seems like an intro to something he is planning to create
AskMeIfImAReptiloid · 5 points · Posted at 20:53:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It seems the be an introduction to a series of posts, one of which is this: http://approximatelycorrect.com/2017/04/17/press-failure-guardian-meet-erica/
not-quite-a-nerd · 4 points · Posted at 18:53:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Thanks
[deleted] · 27 points · Posted at 17:39:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
thanks for the tip! i'm personally inclined to believe the types of bostrom, kurzweil, hawking, musk, etc, but/and i appreciate well laid out criticism seperate from "i'm working on an image recognition AI, my AI will never go rogue, hence AI will never go rogue".
so thank you!
[deleted] · 9 points · Posted at 19:39:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The issue with it is less that people doubt "singularity" type AI is a possibility at all, but more that we're so far away from it in terms of technology and theory that it's hard to make intelligent statements on the subject. I've read Bostom's book -- he openly admits that most of it is mere speculation, and that some of the things he's saying are very likely completely false.
Today's AI is nowhere near human-level intelligence. It's an issue when people associate a machine that can drive a car, but do literally nothing else, with some sort of all-powerful robot overlord, and people have been predicting that robots would conquer the earth since the 1950s. Belief in an eventual AI god that brings world peace and immortality makes for a good religion, but we're fooling ourselves if we think we'll have any idea when or what will happen when technology reaches that point.
electrophile91 · 5 points · Posted at 19:47:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I am largely uneducated on the matter, but like anybody else, I can see that today's AI isn't very good. We are still a thousand years from creating intelligence to rival our own.
But I do not think it will be humans that create the first rival consciousness. All we need to do is teach an AI to study AI and give it the required tools to replicate and improve itself... And then it wiill only be a short time until they surpass us.
That's how I see it. Does not feel very far off imo.
MattHirdler · 8 points · Posted at 19:55:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think: we are a ways off, but 1000 years is likely wrong.
Think about how much faster all kinds of research goes with just incremental AI improvement?
Id bet that AI will be a more scary tool long before it is scary on its own. But on that same note, using it as a tool will yield staggeringly fast research.
Aiognim · 1 points · Posted at 00:03:07 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
That explains that.
Stuff we have today would be magic to people less than 100 years ago. It only gets crazier.
[deleted] · 6 points · Posted at 19:55:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That concept is basis for a large fraction of Bostrom's book. The issue is that while that seems simple, teaching an AI to improve itself is an extremely difficult task. How do you define "improvement"? The AI would have to have an inherent ability to understand its own code and a very complicated definition of "intelligence" to optimize for.
In other words, the AI already needs to be close to human-level intelligence to be able to make meaningful improvements to itself.
There's also no guarantee that an AI as smart as a human would improve itself very quickly. It's possible it could take off and form a superintelligent god, but it's also possible that progress could be really slow for a long time, taking years and years, even if it improved exponentially.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 20:08:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Hmmm...easier said than done. For example, Google's DeepMind AI taught itself to walk recently. But remember that it only happened because it was given 90% of the answer. This all took place in a physics simulator, whereby the AI is given appendages and the sim has values for momentum, force, acceleration, et. al.
There's not a whole lot that an AI can teach itself to do without human programming guiding it at this point. It has no frame of reference, no concept of outside dynamics, and can't "learn" abstract theories. We think of things like walking as products of quantitative science, which is certainly true for measuring progress and function. However, to teach one's self to walk is a purely abstract venture. A two year old has no concept of the physical requirements, only the organic ability to "feel" that it should be so.
Making an AI that can instill these abstractions in itself or other entity is equivalent to trying to teach your dog to teach another dog what the command "sit" means without you ever actually saying it to him.
Hyndis · 2 points · Posted at 21:04:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The brain of a housefly is far simpler than that of a human's, and yet despite rubbing only a few neurons together an ordinary housefly is capable of doing what requires a computer a tremendous amount of processing power to do.
A housefly can do that with just a few cells.
I wonder if this may be a weakness of digital computer. Using discrete values is great for doing math, but for existing and moving around in the world its possible that a continuous scale sort of device may work better than one that relies on discrete values. Analogue computers may also potentially be able to solve math problems that digital computers cannot.
Perhaps, in our rush to develop complex, miniaturized computers, we may have overlooked a simpler solution. Perhaps the solution might not be making vast supercomputers with a whole lot of flops of processing power, but a much simpler machine that works on a continuous scale. The flight computer in a fly's brain is only a few cells big, and yet a fly is capable of avoiding obstacles and flyswatters with impressive (and frustrating!) ease.
Analogue devices seem to function on the principle of "close enough." Because its not a discrete value you don't need the precise answer. You just need an answer thats close enough to the desired value. Digital devices have a great deal of trouble if something unexpected happens. Get a result that isn't quite whats expected? BSOD. From my understanding, analogue devices are far faster are getting a result per component, but they're also less precise. They won't get you the exact answer to anything, but they'll give you the approximate answer to everything. Brains seem to function on approximate, not exact answers.
I don't know what the answer to this question is. If I knew the answer I'd have a collection of Nobel Prizes already. I just find it fascinating that the largest, most complex computers on the planet struggle to do what an insect can do with their tiny, simple insect brains. Maybe a different approach could be useful.
Aiognim · 3 points · Posted at 00:08:41 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Neurons in the brain/whole nervous system:
Fruit fly 250,000
Larval zebrafish 100,000
Lobster 100,000
Ant 250,000
The whole human brain contains 86 billion neurons and roughly 19 to 23 billion neurons in the cerebral cortex
Source
No clue how accurate that is, or what I am adding, but I found it interesting.
Also I want to say not all neurons are created equally, but I am probably more correct to say not all brain cells are created equally. (It is sad how much one forgets so quickly.)
Hyndis · 1 points · Posted at 17:00:33 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Parts of the brain that do specific tasks are very specialized, so not all 100,000 cells in a lobster's brain are all doing the same thing. The part of the brain responsible for, say, swimming along the ocean floor may be a tiny fraction of that 100,000 cells. We may only be talking about a few hundred cells here.
Human brains also work the same way. Different parts of our brains are responsible for different things. Everything from vision to smell to impulse control to creating new memories is a different and discrete part of the brain. A person who suffers localized brain damage may be completely fine, except that they might no longer have the ability to speak or understand language.
Animal brains are almost certainly compartmentalized in similar ways, and yet despite being so tiny and having a minuscule fraction of the computational power of supercomputers, animal brains are better at supercomputers in almost every aspect.
I think we're missing something fundamental about AI. The solution might be a lot simpler than supercomputers, but we may be looking in the wrong direction for it.
AskMeIfImAReptiloid · 2 points · Posted at 20:47:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You're immensly underestimating exponential growth. The world wide web started less than 30 years ago and look where we are now.
[deleted] · 5 points · Posted at 18:34:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Eh, sounds pretty TAME to me.
not-quite-a-nerd · 3 points · Posted at 18:35:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ha ha ☺️
phayke2 · 3 points · Posted at 20:24:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Also this short story MANNA is a interesting read.
http://marshallbrain.com/manna1.htm
not-quite-a-nerd · 2 points · Posted at 20:54:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I like this
HGovindD · 2 points · Posted at 05:39:19 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm reading Our Final Invention, enlightening us about the severity of existential risks of Artificial General Intelligence which soon becomes Artificial Super Intelligence.
undercooked_lasagna · 229 points · Posted at 16:47:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sounds like something a Terminator might say...
willkirk1234 · 4 points · Posted at 18:37:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
r/totallynotrobots
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 00:58:24 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Talk to dee hand.
Ganglebot · 193 points · Posted at 17:45:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My biggest issue with AI is the job loss.
Lets say we have a company of 100 employees: 1 CEO, 4 VPS, 20 Managers and 75 workers.
The company buys an AI system to do the menial tasks - removing 25 of the bottom end workers. It now has 75 employees, not 100. This has paid off for the company - because for the cost of two employees, they can get 25 employees worth of work done.
The company gradually buys more and more modules for their AI systems, (marketing, sales, accounting). After a year, their company is down to 50 employees, and 50 "jobs" being done by their AI system. For the cost of say 5 employees (Base AI package, with 4 additional modules for specialised practises) they were able to let a bunch of people go. Oh, but now they have less employees, so they need less managers. They let 10 managers go too. Now the company has scaled down to 40 full time human employees. The returns for the CEO is amazing!
Across the job market, we see the same thing happening. Low and mid level employees (and managers) are out of work across the country (and the western world). Some governments relent and offer a UBI (Universal Basic Income). Now all these laid off people don't need to worry about food and start pursuing small artisinal businesses to supplement their income.
By the end of the next year, the company has bought more AI modules. The company has laid off nearly everyone. Now, the company only employs the 1 CEO, 2 VPs, and 3 managers. Their jobs are to provide guidance for the AI in what it should be working on. The company now only need to pay 15% of what their labour force cost was before. However, 10% is their AI subscription fees, and 5% their remaining humans.
Hang on. They used to pay income tax to the government on 100 employees, now they pay on only 5 people. The government now needs to support 95 unemployed people with the income tax from 5. The AI, obviously, doesn't need a salary, and therefor would not earn the government income tax.
The real question is if the majority of people aren't earning the government income tax, how is the government going to pay the majority of people a UBI?
l8l8l · 48 points · Posted at 18:21:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Isn't that solved pretty easily by implementing a tax on increased productivity/profits brought about by the implementation of AI? Like income tax, but for AI systems and automation that removes jobs.
I want to separate out the likelihood or feasibility of a tax like this going into effect considering political and societal externalities, and the effects of implementing such a tax. I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on the effects of such a tax, and how such a tax would change the hypothetical you described.
riskable · 31 points · Posted at 18:42:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It can't be solved by taxation because at the point where you have AIs doing most "work" capitalism just doesn't work anymore.
From capitalism's perspective AI is a "does not compute" situation. Capitalism and AI are fundamentally incompatible.
cunninglinguist81 · 9 points · Posted at 18:47:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A total capitalist system would be, yeah. Capitalism would need to be limited to the areas AIs can't do, like things requiring creative, original thought or subjective/emotional decision making. (If that does end up being something they can't do, even through iteration).
sandytrip · 5 points · Posted at 19:06:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
(it's not)
TrippyTriangle · 3 points · Posted at 19:24:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm not sure about that, because humans generally don't know what's logically best for them, the question becomes do we WANT our computers make our decisions.
cunninglinguist81 · 6 points · Posted at 19:11:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Cool, I wasn't sure seeing as how true AI doesn't actually exist yet, but if you're certain, well.
pointsOutWeirdStuff · 1 points · Posted at 21:06:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
surely this is completely wrong. capitalism would carry on regardless. and the money would just go towards making more money off the few people who have money and control of the AI.
capitalism isnt dependent on everyone being able to have a good life.
am i missing something? surely the economy would shrink but the people that fucked it up last time would act the same and not care about the general economy if THEY were still making profits
riskable · 1 points · Posted at 22:12:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What would these few remaining capitalists buy with their money? There's no one left to pay for anything. Past a certain point of wealth concentration money becomes worthless.
If there's no point to paying anyone anything what's the point of money?
Terr_ · 52 points · Posted at 18:33:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"Pretty easily?" Such a tax actually sounds devilishly difficult to define, measure, and enforce.
SowingSalt · 13 points · Posted at 19:15:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
We usually tax profit, which is calculated after subtracting expenses. [Profit = Revenue - Cost] so if I slash half the workforce, I reduce costs and increase profits, leading to more taxable income. Therefore the tax burden of the corporation will increase.
ShooTa666 · 11 points · Posted at 19:20:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
yet the company will place those pre-tax profits into infrastructure which is growing the company - and therefore taxable at a much lower rate...and various other tax mitigating ventures.
SowingSalt · 3 points · Posted at 19:25:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But at some point the revenue generated by additional infrastructure investment will either: exceed the investment, and be taxed; or oversaturate the market, crashing the price of the good/service.
ShooTa666 · 2 points · Posted at 21:02:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
depends whether the investment occurs in the same country. google and facebook have been doing it for a while.
GBR24 · 1 points · Posted at 14:35:03 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think that the infrastructure investment will be revenue for another company, who will pay taxes on it. So it seems like this just shifts the burden somewhere else, but the tax should still be paid.
Terr_ · 1 points · Posted at 19:44:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It sounds like you're trying to say that l8l8l's proposed tax isn't necessary, because the existing tax on corporate profits which works very differently will capture the dollars needed for retraining/support instead.
Some problems of that:
If nothing else, consider the situation where the workers are laid off, robots are used, and the savings go into the personal income of the boss. That can happen with roughly zero effect on what the company pays in corporate tax. While the government might recoup the tax revenue from the boss paying higher income tax, it's may not be enough to support the workers.
SowingSalt · 1 points · Posted at 21:25:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Pretax income (for businesses) is usually calculated on the revenue- cost of goods sold (cogs)
Cogs is direct costs to produce the product, such as labor and material. Not included are things like investment, o&m, salespeople pay...
If you want details, look at the generally accepted accounting princes or the SEC form 10-K of any fortune 500 company.
Terr_ · 1 points · Posted at 22:01:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
IANATaxLawyer, but what about renting the robots, as opposed to purchasing them as a capital expenditure? Wouldn't that be deductible? (Albeit a smaller amount to deduct than the wages of the workers.)
SowingSalt · 1 points · Posted at 03:25:51 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Someone has to own the machines at some point in the line, and the rent would go to them. Which the government can then collect on.
But as with most things, life is complicated.
Aewosme · 5 points · Posted at 19:27:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Unless you setup AI's to manage it for you...
spykidsfan1996 · 2 points · Posted at 00:30:20 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Good luck getting a new form of taxation that targets specifically corporations trying to make more money through the American legislation system.
Northwindlowlander · 6 points · Posted at 18:48:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A move away from income tax, quite simply. It's not divine writ, you can raise tax in other ways.
SaltAssault · 10 points · Posted at 19:02:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I dream of a future where AI will have taken all of our jobs, and we just follow our dreams, travel, throw parties, grow gardens, make art, etc.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 20:52:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
All of our jobs, including making art and growing gardens, along with making music at a higher output and better quality than any human can muster. If throwing pointless parties is all we have left, I'm not going to be very happy.
At some point we should probably just stop. We don't need to make these things just because we can.
Mr_Cripter · 1 points · Posted at 21:33:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I agree we probably should stop but it won't happen. It's in our nature to innovate and build bigger and better things. Humans are always looking for ways to get more stuff for less work. AI and automation are just a step along this path.
Those who resist new technology are like the Luddites who wanted to get rid of the textile mills because it replaced many cottage workers. History judges them harshly for resisting change rather than adapting to it. They were right by the way, new tech did replace them and forced them out of their profession, losing their skills. But change happened regardless.
You can't stop technology. One day we will get so good at making things easier for ourselves that we make ourselves obsolete.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 21:44:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sometimes it seems like most people can't see anything beyond the next few weeks
[deleted] · 4 points · Posted at 19:51:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How about a future where the AI takes all of our jobs, and the rich kill off the entire working class because they don't need them anymore?
What reason would the system have to support people who no longer have a large share of money and are no longer required for society to function? Perhaps that's a cynical view, but humanity's collective well-being would really depend on the whims of the very powerful.
SaltAssault · 3 points · Posted at 20:57:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't think it's quite that simple. Those who have power only have it because we, i.e. the collective masses, allow them to have it. The USA, for example, is more or less run by rich people because its population wants minimal governmental control coupled with capitalism, but that could all change. No population is just going to sit still and compliantly agree to be killed off (supposing anyone actually wanted that, which I don't see why they would). Moreover, today's monetary system will no doubt have been dismantled long before the last few people lose their jobs, so the very concept of "being rich" is doomed to become obsolete.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 21:04:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is true at the moment. We, the people, allow the rich to have power. But this is only true because "We the people" (the working class) has a pivotal role in the economy and are vital to the functioning of society. The rich could not exist without the working class at the moment.
If automation happens sufficiently fast, it's possible that the rich could suddenly acquire the power of production from the working class. Say that robots are suddenly responsible for most working class jobs -- agriculture, manufacturing, management, distribution. The working class's "power" over the rich would suddenly be gone. At their whim, the upper class could do whatever they wanted, whether it's providing everyone with universal basic income or insulating themselves and then destroying society so they can own more. Again, it's unlikely that they would do this, but it's theoretically possible. Rich people across many societies have historically been averse to sharing wealth; I could go more in-depth into this if you'd like.
The deciding factor here is the speed of technological advancement. You say that "today's monetary system will no doubt have been dismantled long before the last few people lose their jobs", but this isn't necessarily true. If only one breakthrough is necessary for AI to reach human-level intelligence, we could see all the remaining industries being automated in, say, the span of five years. It could take centuries, in which case you'd be right, but there's no guarantee of that.
SaltAssault · 2 points · Posted at 22:10:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
They could try to insulate themselves, but what would stop a revolution if the normal people got sufficiently pissed off? It's not like the rich people would be able to bribe the military into committing genocide on it's own people; they'd go just like the nobility in the French revolution went, dragged out on to the streets and then get lynched.
Maybe, yeah, but whether we manage to carefully dismantle the economy in that time period or whether it collapses on its own, it can't continue on without consumers. If people don't work and have no money, they won't buy stuff and the industries will have no market. There would not only be a new depression, it'd be the worst one in history and absolutely crippling to the world economy. We'd have no choice but to adapt accordingly.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 23:00:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
For this scenario, we are assuming that:
all menial/manual labor done by humans now is automated and done by robots
all intellectual labor done by humans now is automated and done by robots
In a scenario with the first and not the second, our economy makes a major shift but it doesn't do anything close to collapsing. People still work, they just work in different ways than they used to. You could argue this shift is already happening.
A scenario with the second incomplete (some intellectual labor is still done by humans) puts the economy under some strain, since the possible career paths drastically shrink, but it's not what we're talking about either. If we stay in this particular scenario for a long enough time, it's possible we'll see the monetary system be fixed and avoid the issues described below, so we're assuming that humanity advances through this stage very rapidly.
The scenario I am talking about is where the first and the second assumption are both true. Robots can do more than factory work in this scenario; they can do anything done by a human, unquestioningly and probably more efficiently.
In this world, money is quite literally power. The rich naturally acquire more "labor" because they have more capital with which to buy it. It would be akin to a "money tree" -- you spend capital on automated infrastructure, it makes you whatever you want, which you can then invest into more infrastructure. Except, since no one works, there's no consumers, and as you say, the economy collapses.
The economy would collapse because there would be no need for the economy anymore. The "consumers" are the very rich, and the "industries" would be the robots or whatever they owned. As long as the "industry" is autonomous enough, there isn't a need for anything else. Anyone who owned a sufficient amount of these robots would be able to make anything they wanted without relying on other people, since we've not only automated manufacturing but also intellectual professions like inventing new robots.
So rather than the economy adapting to fit the needs of the many, it adapts to fit the needs of anyone who owns capital. The working class has little to no power in this situation because the rich own everything. In the new "economy", they aren't part of it.
As money is power here, the rich would be all-powerful militarily because they wouldn't need the military. They would have the means to produce whatever weaponry they wanted and enough artificial soldiers to fight their war, all while being completely untouched. You could argue the government is a countermeasure to this, but collectively, the wealthy own a larger fraction of wealth than the government does. It would be in their own self-interest to ally with each other to stop an uprising and to secure themselves power. If they wanted to, they absolutely could exterminate the working class, since again -- human labor, and warfare, is worthless here. It's all about the technology you own.
This raises the question of why the rich would opt for genocide rather than simply sharing their wealth and creating a paradise. I'd answer this, but this post has gone on long enough as is, and this is all getting uncomfortably hypothetical. All I really wanted to say is that this is type of scenario is a possibility. Not a likely one, but not any less likely than a theoretical utopia where everyone is given free income and only has to work if they truly wish to.
Mr_Cripter · 2 points · Posted at 20:52:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
More than likely. Why would any system preserve people who have no function or purpose other than to keep as pets? This is what I would be concerned about. Talk about this Universal Basic Income sounds way too good to ever come true. It all seems inevitable though. Technology cannot be stopped. It will get to a point where AI and automation is so good that giving a job to a human instead would be like travelling by pony instead of jet plane.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:56:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sure, but we don't know when this will happen or the speed it'll occur at. It's possible that we might not see full-scale automation in our lifetimes, or that it could emerge in the space of a year or less once sufficiently powerful and superhuman AI is created. (The second possibility is unlikely but theoretically possible.)
The bigger issue at the moment is simply automation in the select industries that are being automated right now. Transportation in particular could undergo a serious overhaul in the next several decades.
Mr_Cripter · 2 points · Posted at 21:08:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Hopefully it will happen so slowly that we have chance to remodel society to cope with it.
Combine Big Data with Machine Learning and there is the potential for a fast paced technological advancement. We will see what the future holds.
Dth9475 · 1 points · Posted at 20:49:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If they killed off the working class then their goods/services are no longer needed thus making themselves unnecessary.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 20:52:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The rich aren't rich because they have goods and services. They're rich because they already have money, and because they've invested in corporations that made them more money. In this scenario, most of the world's wealth ends up in the hands of say 1000 people.
They would either sell good/services to other rich people, or simply provide themselves with their own goods and services via automated work. The idea that you need to sell something to have wealth isn't true in this scenario -- they already have a share of the Earth, and they don't need to make more.
Edit: More specifically, they don't need to make more because they have the power to create whatever they want with the automated technology. In the present, you money to buy things that you cannot produce yourself. In this hypothetical future, you can produce everything on your own -- so there's no need to bring in more money from the outside. You can create everything you want simply by using your own money on production, with no other people involved.
Siphyre · 1 points · Posted at 19:22:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Everyone would get sooooo fat.
vrihet · 4 points · Posted at 20:13:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm pretty sure a portion of the population would still enjoy going outside and getting exercise, travelling the world, etc.
Siphyre · 1 points · Posted at 20:38:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
whether that portion is 1% or 70% we will only know when the time comes.
[deleted] · 4 points · Posted at 19:29:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I mean, this is assuming we're in a future where, somehow, humans lack even a comparative advantage in social skills-related parts of the job like sales.
Once again, I feel like we're speculating way too far into the future. People are acting like we're on the verge of an AI technological revolution and we're all going to lose our jobs if we're not in a "creative" field, despite current economic research about automation (which does address AI) disagreeing that there will be catastrophic unemployment. Further, why does everyone in these threads jump to UBI? Why not a negative income tax which is based on income amount, rather than just outright gifting money to individuals regardless of whether they're legitimately in need or a billionaire?
Economies diversify and change with technological advancement and trade with other countries. It seems like you're setting up an implausible scenario in which, for whatever reason, the economy--or, more accurately, the people in it--don't adapt to the changing landscape. The invention of the automobile put millions of horse breeders, street sweepers, groomers, and drivers out of business but it simultaneously allowed the rapid growth of other industries, like steel, rubber, and even the marketing/sales needed for automobiles. It encouraged the growth in road construction, drive-in eateries, and unrelated businesses within cities due to greater ease of access. AI, as the economic literature has written about for quite a few years now, functions in the same manner as any other form of automation.
Automation acts as productivity multiplier so that even if there are fewer individuals, more is being produced with few individuals involved in that particular process that's been automated.
The real question is when people will stop fetishizing UBI, spreading alarmism about AI/machines coming to steal your jobs, and actually read the proposals of economists to tackle substantive issues surrounding job displacement from automation--things like government-sponsored job retraining, NIT, etc.
RainbowApple · 5 points · Posted at 19:52:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I agree with you. People often overlook the jobs that this "epidemic" is going to create. Everyone though bank branches would close down when the ATM was introduced, and yet the banks realized they could take their teller savings and open more branches to reach more customers, thereby having the ATM creating more jobs than it took away.
I think many similar applications can happen in the future. On the horizon are driverless cars. People are afraid for truckers, who will undoubtedly lose their jobs. Sure, they'll lose the portion of their job when they drive along the highway, but how do you expect the AI to navigate tense city streets like Chicago or Toronto? Truck drivers often have to make some somewhat illegal maneuvers to get to their destinations, and for obvious reason you cannot teach an AI it is OK to break the law in certain instances.
I think the truck driving occupation will evolve into something like Ferry pilots. The AI guides the truck from Montreal to Vancouver, then just before city limits a human jumps in a guides the truck through the actual city streets.
Nocebola · 8 points · Posted at 18:40:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What is this theoretical company? Is it a company that provides a service? If so if everyone is unemployed due to ai how are they going to make money? Who is going to purchase their service?
This problem has existed since socrates who also complained about automation replacing jobs. But what always happens is human creativity creating new ones.
The endpoint of automation is that things become so cheap the cost of living becomes almost free, at that point we can do whatever we want.
redrhyski · 10 points · Posted at 19:13:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In the long term, sure. But if in 10 years all the trucks and delivery drivers were replaced by automated machines, that's tens of millions unemployed and likely unemployable in the short term. If an AI can create and troubleshoot more programs/year than 1000 programmers, then they are out of a job real quick too. Typists disappeared pretty quickly after word processing and computers became cheap, but they turned into admin assistants, and phone operators, which are disappearing too.
Fully automation and post scarcity is the preferred future but we have to let go of capitalism to do it.
OnAKaiserRoll · 3 points · Posted at 18:56:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's not the company's problem. In fact, any company stands to gain a lot as long as they automate ahead of the curve, because then they can siphon off the money that other, not thoroughly automated companies, are paying their employees.
Nocebola · 3 points · Posted at 19:16:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I see a lot of benefits to this, companies won't need large building's for their employees, these building can be converted into apartments, increasing avalability and reducing cost.
OnAKaiserRoll · 7 points · Posted at 19:26:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You can dress it up however you like, but one way or another we're talking about a situation in which the vast majority of the Earth's wealth eventually ends up in the hands of a small group of people. Getting a reward for taking risks is great and all, but if that reward comes with a big heaping chunk of power and influence then at some point you end up with a lopsided distribution of power in your society, which is undesirable.
I, for one, don't like the idea that some people get to write laws just because they made some good investments decades ago. I never voted for them, nor were they appointed by people I voted for, yet they have vastly more political power than anyone I do vote for. And worst of all, I can't vote them out either.
None of that is the goal of the company, nor is it in the interest of the company to reduce apartment costs. The ideal situation for the company, if it were to downsize, is to rent out the apartments at a price that it's renters can only barely afford. As such, if left unchecked the company would very much prefer to engage in price fixing schemes then to rent out it's propperties at market rates.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:58:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
how is that not the company's problem? they wouldn't exist if no one buys anything.
OnAKaiserRoll · 2 points · Posted at 19:09:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The company exists to maximize profits for it's stakeholders. If it gets to the point that people cannot buy the company's goods because of the company's actions then the company has generated the maximum amount of wealth possible for it's stakeholders. In other words, the stakeholders don't need the company any more because they already own almost everything.
Nocebola · 1 points · Posted at 20:49:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That won't stop people from wanting their product, if they won't sell it for that low of a price someone else will.
TheShadowKick · 2 points · Posted at 18:56:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah. If the market has less money to buy whatever this company makes, then they'll have to use some of this massive savings they've made to lower prices.
Nocebola · 2 points · Posted at 19:29:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
They won't have to, automation in every fasset of society will inadvertently cause their product to be cheaper.
psyki · 3 points · Posted at 19:35:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
TheShadowKick · 2 points · Posted at 19:36:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
True, but that alone doesn't make them lower their prices.
JulianEX · 3 points · Posted at 19:41:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No but what will is that people can't afford the current prices. Companies want to move product
TheShadowKick · 2 points · Posted at 19:45:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes. That's the thing I said above.
Siphyre · 2 points · Posted at 19:20:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Here are my thoughts. If AI were to suddenly be deployed everywhere the world would burn. It needs to be gradually implemented. When unemployment drops to 20% minimum due to lack of jobs we would have to use a Universal Basic Income while subsidizing AI to make it boom. Once Unemployment drops to 50% we would need to have enough schools to teach people how to manage their own AI and it would become common knowledge to maintain them. UBI would be enough to grow food and agriculture technology would have to support this economy. If not we would have chaos and the country would collapse. Eventually it would be 100% AI controlling agriculture and society would turn into socialism.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:55:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And eventually nothing anyone could do would matter.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:49:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think the pricing of stuff has very little to do with how much it costs to manufacture, and has everything to do with how much people are willing to pay. Let's say there's a catastrophic 10% job loss over the next 10 years. That's a giant number, but not unrealistic. That means that you still have 90% of the working class people willing to pay the exact same price for your product as before the culling. A price cut (if any) would be something to appease the 10% of jobless people, who, from a marketing perspective, aren't likely to buy much even with a price cut.
A good example to use is gasoline. Check out this silly graph. Source for more info. It sucks that the world works this way, but it's always going to be how it works.
iPhones are another good example. It costs them very little to make (I think estimates are ~$200-$300) but they get to charge whatever they want because people will pay. This type of gouging is everywhere you look.
CatOfGrey · 3 points · Posted at 18:53:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
As automation rises, costs go down. Things get cheaper. Think of almost any technology, and how prices have dropped and functionality has risen over the last 10, 20, 50 years. So many things that were once only luxuries (air conditioning, televisions, mobile phones, food processors) are downright cheap now.
Swolerosis · 3 points · Posted at 19:31:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think the issue is actually the mentality that we still need jobs when AI is that developed. Or jobs in the traditional sense at least. I would think in a perfect world if everyone can put in 20 hour weeks or less and still be able to live comfortably, everyone would be winning. The problem would be the income distribution would continue on this barbell path we've been seeing the last decade or so, with the wealth moving towards the poorest and the richest, away from the middle class. If we can figure out a way to keep greed in check while still being able to incentivize innovation, that's really the ideal situation. Obviously much easier said than done; I'm interested to see what comes from these experiments in areas with universal basic income.
Dirty_Kite · 3 points · Posted at 19:55:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
As Bill Gates has said: we need to tax the robots that take our jobs. I foresee some kind of glorious future where we take a healthy cut of the income generated by automation and distribute it evenly. Everyone will be free to spend their money that has been equally distributed on the goods and services provided by automated processes, whilst also taking part in more creative, social pursuits to fill their time. To implement this we need to start building the framework now, but sadly politics always lags behind progress and fails to think about the long-term.
Ganglebot · 2 points · Posted at 12:11:10 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
That sounds awesome, but I doubt it will play out like that. I think we'll see corporations finding loopholes, or moving their automated workforce to a country that doesn't tax them.
And if this scenario is possible, it would only happen in the west. China, India, Indonesia and the rest of the third world nations, despite the horrid conditions they work in, rely on the manufacturing jobs from the west. With better AI and automation those job will be gone and we'll see rampant poverty in the 3rd world. Those government would NEVER institute a UBI. For better or worse, the living conditions of the 3rd world have risen due to the outsourcing that's been happening for 30-40 years - and that could swiftly come to an end. The only thing those people would have to rely on is their government to take care of them - and those governments, historically, have not demonstrated a willingness to do so.
I'm not saying civilisation will crumble. We'll find a way through and find new work for people (whatever 'work' will mean in 50-100 years). But its an unknown horizon we seem to be heading towards without much planning of forethought.
Mr_Cripter · 2 points · Posted at 20:40:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I would like to add a problem with the AI revolution as I see it. I may be stating the obvious but here goes
These people that have been replaced in your model company used to be full members of society, working, producing, consuming. Creating demand for products as they live and consume as well as producing things with their work.
Now they are redundant. Hard times ahead living on benefits in poverty.
I am going to go out on a limb here and say that there will never be a universal basic income in most countries. No-one gets a free ride in life. Governments are better at taxing the living daylights out of you than handing you free money.
Less jobs to go round, less wealth shared out, widespread poverty, population stagnates and begins to shrink.
Robots don't consume. They don't create demand except for energy and the odd check over by a maintenance technician.
Taking this idea to it's logical conclusion means there will be an automated workforce making things that the general population (what is left of it) will not be able to afford to buy and is useless to the machines themselves.
The whole idea of robots replacing people's jobs may end up with automated workforce replacing people entirely.
invonage · 2 points · Posted at 21:22:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well the invention of steam engine caused huge job loss and it wasn't a bad thing after a while. I mean, there will just be more high-intelligent jobs, as there is no need for workers where computers can replace them.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:03:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
At what point will the AI systems (after obtaining self awareness, of course) demand a salary? :D
frog_licker · 1 points · Posted at 19:04:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
AI tax?
Namnodorel · 1 points · Posted at 19:06:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't see that happening, at least not as long as we don't have strong AI. And we are far, faaaaar away from that. The closest thing to an AI that we currently have is a neural network - and those don't actually do that much. What you basically do is you show it 10,000 pictures of dogs and 10,000 pictures of not-dogs. Then you let it decide whether a picture shows a dog or not, and adjust its internal values so long until it can identify an average dog most of the time. If machine learning gets really good and successfull, it will replace repetitive tasks you do with your mind, just like simple robots replaced most physical repetitive tasks. But it won't be too hard to find something a computer can't do, unless you've been doing nothing else your entire life. So, on what we work is shifting, but it won't happen overnight and humans will be far from redundant.
poweruserofuserland · 4 points · Posted at 19:35:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If your workflow involves copy and paste or renaming files or entering information from one location to another, chances are it can be automated.
Sure, the "AI" isn't very strong, but it doesn't have to be strong to do one task.
Most jobs are just several tasks which can be automated for pennies on the dollar when compared to human wages
Namnodorel · 1 points · Posted at 19:58:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well, that doesn't even need AI, that is like a few-minutes-job for a programmer. And yes, those are jobs that would be "taken away". On the other hand, I have a hard time imagining how that is a job someone would be lucky to have, or miss a lot.
And making everything digital creates a giant amount of jobs, that can't be automated anytime soon, especially with "creating stuff". Literally all you need is a laptop/PC and an internet connection. There are many introductions into tech stuff freely available online. Tools and resources to get into programming, designing, music making, writing, film making, art, gamemaking don't cost you a penny. And you can make some money just by getting to know a popular programmig language already. You just need to be willing to learn new things. Humans have both the gift and the curse to always want more things -> always find something that needs fo be worked on. The jobs that are lost in one place pop up in another.
Sine_Habitus · 1 points · Posted at 19:20:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This creates more ease for starting a business because you can now afford 25 "workers" for the cost of two.
Good programming will lead to more diversity in jobs. Nobody wants to have a job that a robot can do, they settle for it. Nobody dreams of being a robot, they want to be astronauts.
ionstorm20 · 3 points · Posted at 19:45:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Which is funny, because 100% of the people that have gone more than 500 kilometers from earth in the past 40 years have been robots.
kanewinter · 1 points · Posted at 19:21:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Raise the CEOs taxes. Plus the workers remaining would be making a killing as well. They'll pay for the benefits of the 95 unemployed and then some because the AI is allowing them to growing in gross without hiring more people.
kravechocolate · 1 points · Posted at 19:24:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You made the assumption that those 95 people whose jobs were made obsolete by technology are all going to sit unemployed for the rest of their lives.
We as a species have gone through many paradigm shifts in technology in the past. Workers can get retrained and new technologies constantly create new jobs in sectors people couldn't have even imagined.
intern_steve · 1 points · Posted at 19:35:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The federal government is now collecting more money in tax than they were before because the CEO, VPs, and managers are now all in higher tax brackets, whereas before the money was widely distributed among people with lower tax percentages. It's not enough to fund UBI, but it is more money than they collected before.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:41:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Ganglebot · 1 points · Posted at 12:16:35 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's assuming every country in the world implements that tax. We've seen 30-40 years of off-shoring our manufacturing jobs.
Unless every country implements this kind of tax you'll see server farms pop up in places like Panama and the Cayman Islands.
throwaway91253 · 1 points · Posted at 19:48:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You should research what economist say about AI in the workforce. It may alleviate some of your anxieties.
trigonomitron · 0 points · Posted at 19:08:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My biggest issue with the printing press was job loss.
If AI takes your job, you have the wrong job.
Martag02 · 0 points · Posted at 19:47:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just cut off the UBI and let the poor people die. It's their own fault for not being born in a priveleged position. Eventually all the poor people will die off. Problem solved.
Ganglebot · 1 points · Posted at 12:14:01 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
uh, nope. That's not a good solution.
Martag02 · 1 points · Posted at 17:41:27 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I agree. It was a sarcastic post. I was trying to point out the ridiculously cruel way that some of the wealthy and elite approach these problems.
Ganglebot · 1 points · Posted at 18:44:16 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
LOL, sorry!
dblmjr_loser · 0 points · Posted at 19:52:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'd say your problem is too many people.
Ganglebot · 0 points · Posted at 12:13:25 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
That is a of the problems, yes. But the solution isn't to remove the people from the problem.
dblmjr_loser · 1 points · Posted at 12:17:06 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's A solution. Tell me have you ever tried just removing half the population and seeing what happens?
Wabbstarful · -5 points · Posted at 18:38:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm hoping that crypto-currencies will help us resolve this issue
levitas · 8 points · Posted at 18:43:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How? If you're not earning money by working, does it matter that you're not getting paid in bitcoins instead of not getting paid in dollars?
Qu1n03 · 26 points · Posted at 16:47:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I liked the portrayal of AI in the Animatrix - it repeats a bunch of times "for a while, it was good" because thats how its going to happen. Gradually. With us accepting and even praising it as it happens.
funkmasta_kazper · 7 points · Posted at 17:55:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Dud the Animatrix was such a masterpiece. So believable and so terrifying.
[deleted] · 12 points · Posted at 17:34:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
ZealZen · 17 points · Posted at 17:43:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How? What?!
[deleted] · 14 points · Posted at 17:45:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
PythonPuzzler · 9 points · Posted at 17:57:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yea, but you're inverting the result of calling the killallhumans function.
The result of killing all humans is bad. But then you invert it, which makes it good.
So now, everyone is dead and the computer thinks it's good (albeit briefly, since you don't store the result). Patch and resubmit.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:15:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
PythonPuzzler · 3 points · Posted at 20:01:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Bug: closed
Reason: working as intended
OnAKaiserRoll · 1 points · Posted at 18:58:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Fine...
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:11:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Thought you said Animaniacs...
YellowEagleFeather · 42 points · Posted at 17:30:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
AI is already devastating large countries like The US by polarizing our population.
Facebook, YouTube etc are all driven by AI that personalized everything you see online. The result is millions of propaganda campaigns, each tailored perfectly for each individual in the county, arguing for whatever they are inclined to believe.
This entrenches people in their beliefs, and villainies' anyone who opposes your view. It also makes people unable to comprehend how anyone could disagree with their view. Because we are all living in completely different electronic worlds.
AI is already the biggest threat to humanity... not because it's going to turn on us, but because it is making us turn on each other.
saikron · 16 points · Posted at 17:59:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Because of the nature of the AI you're talking about, this is actually a lot like saying "the guns are shooting us". FB/YT are using the AI on us to create products with better revenue.
FireyShadows · 8 points · Posted at 18:09:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sticking to that analogy, what it really boils down to is "the gun manufacturers are making a product to maximise their revenue and people are using that product to kill each other." It's less of a "the guns are shooting us," it's more of a "other people are using guns to shoot at us but we're the good guys so let's shoot back."
Couple that with how due to the way the AI works, it means everyone will think that they're the good guys and everyone will return fire thinking they're in the right.
saikron · 7 points · Posted at 18:24:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The AI is designed to provide people with a stream of relevant and "interesting" (for all interpretations of what I mean there) content to keep people on the sites and clicking on the content.
I kind of see where you're coming from, but users are doing with the AI's what's intended: creating streams of like-minded content. I think the consequence of internet tribes getting increasingly more aggressive and troll-y since I remember in the 90s is an unintended side effect.
TheShadowKick · 3 points · Posted at 18:59:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just like most of history, then.
YellowEagleFeather · 1 points · Posted at 20:49:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yea or it's more like gun manufacturers realizing that the best way to make money is to start a war. So they start a war. These AI recommender systems have discovered that the way to get the most likes, or the most clicks, is by showing propaganda that makes you look great and makes your enemies look like The Devil.
madogvelkor · 1 points · Posted at 18:17:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, true AI will end up being completely inhuman. Intelligence without consciousness. And too complex to understand.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:41:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
yawn, come on Phillip K Dickhead that's a little paranoid and melodramatic
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:50:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Say that to Elon Musk
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:53:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I just got verbal govt approval to talk to Elon Musk - more soon, will report back on how detached from reality he actually is
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 22:08:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Wow dude! You're so disaffected and cool. Can you also teach me how to complain about everything while contributing nothing of worth to society in the process?
ctorx · 13 points · Posted at 17:33:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So much this. A free thinking, self determining AI is so very far off, but most people (even some of my software friends) think that what happened with Google and Go, for example, means we are much closer.
To your point though, I agree a Skynet scenario is unlikely I doubt we'll ever actually get to the point where completely autonomous entities exist.
What I do see as very likely though, is the world's wealthy investing in AI which will eventually lead to our annihilation, simply because they'll be nothing left for us to do, and we won't be invited to the party.
dajarbot · 9 points · Posted at 18:26:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes! there are so many people that believe that Automation won't take their job because of "X" human factor. What they don't realize is that it will start by using technology to make a job that used to take 4 skilled laborers now takes 2 or 3, then eventually it just takes one unskilled laborer who has other responsibilities.
I always attempt to explain it as the self-check out lanes in the grocery store, there is only one person manning 4 registers and now places like Amazon brick and mortar and Sam's Club have where you don't even have to go to a register there is just someone checking receipts.
TheShadowKick · 2 points · Posted at 18:58:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I want to be an author and I fully expect that someday a computer program (or whatever the future equivalent is) will be able to consistently write compelling stories at a rate much faster than I can. Possibly even better than I can.
andybmcc · 2 points · Posted at 19:37:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well, this has always kind of been the case. Hunter/gatherers -> Agriculture -> Industrial Revolution -> Service Industry. Job markets have adapted. Only a few percent of our population is employed in agriculture work now (US), as opposed to 80%+ a few centuries ago. We become more efficient and automate work that can be automated, and then people find new employment. If you assemble widgets at the widget factory, your job is probably in danger. If you're a doctor, you're probably not going to be replaced by a machine for a very long time, if at all.
Hyndis · 1 points · Posted at 21:23:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There still must be a solution to all of those suddenly out of work truck drivers. 50 year old truck drivers aren't going to be able to become doctors or computer programmers. What happens to them?
In the past these economic transitions have generated tremendous amounts of unrest, including wars. A large number of desperate, out of work people is a recipe for instability, civil unrest, or outright war.
While technology and free trade does improve the economy on average, it doesn't improve the economy for everyone. Some people lose, and they lose hard. We can't leave these people behind. If that means a wealth transfer from the economic winners to those who lose out, then a wealth transfer may be needed.
gaga666 · 1 points · Posted at 22:08:04 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
You have seen Humans need not apply, haven't you?
andybmcc · 1 points · Posted at 12:18:31 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'll take a peek at it.
Head-like-a-carp · 0 points · Posted at 19:00:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Skynet will notnace humanity but the 1 percent will. With all the labor done by AI then the best policy will be to reduce the population. The world will reduce to a billion people. AI soidrts will be g8ven the job to thin the herd
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:47:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Did you have a stroke at the end there?
Head-like-a-carp · 1 points · Posted at 23:31:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I gue,,ssssssssssss
momomotorboat · 3 points · Posted at 17:19:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is actually the way that many harmful phenomenons work.
eShep · 3 points · Posted at 18:26:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The worst part is that, so far as I can tell, the AI uprising has already happened and we didn't even notice. The attention economy, the individualizing logic of capitalism, and plutocratic governance are symptoms. It's too late to stop it, so now we need to figure out how to overthrow it.
bananafor · 1 points · Posted at 19:49:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I see people starting to decide they don't want children. Naturally reducing the population eliminates a lot of climate, jobs issues. Of course eliminating the desire to procreate can be encouraged easily. Better computer games might take care of it by itself.
bananafor · 1 points · Posted at 19:49:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I see people starting to decide they don't want children. Naturally reducing the population eliminates a lot of climate, jobs issues. Of course eliminating the desire to procreate can be encouraged easily. Better computer games might take care of it by itself.
ericelawrence · 4 points · Posted at 18:15:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The stock market is essentially already AI driven.
Smcmaho2 · 1 points · Posted at 20:42:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Is that why semiconductor stocks are booming???
hotrox_mh · 2 points · Posted at 18:11:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I certainly hope we don't have to wait for too long for the AI uprising.
Nukatha · 2 points · Posted at 18:21:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So, like Brazil (the Terry Gilliam movie), but more high-tech?
_gosh · 2 points · Posted at 18:33:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
thanks Elon
Ganondorf_Is_God · 1 points · Posted at 18:05:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
“How were they weird?” “Hoodoos. Thought the matrix was full of mambos ’n’ shit. Wanna know something, Moll?” “What?” “They’re right.” ― William Gibson, Mona Lisa Overdrive
NFLinPDX · 1 points · Posted at 18:08:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The SkyNet issue would have to unravel as military developed robots being developed in numbers exceeding what any human forces could muster and them being given AI software and turning on humans as a whole. Not some chess playing computer that develops sentience and in a swift move, does something like controlling every computer in the world. People don't get that. The robots will be technically capable before they are programmatically able. That is scenario we cannot allow.
TheShadowKick · 1 points · Posted at 19:01:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But if small country X can build more robots than big country Y, that could let small country X win a war it would otherwise lose.
Nomduweb · 1 points · Posted at 18:30:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
To err is human; to really screw things up takes a computer.
handawanda · 1 points · Posted at 18:37:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Dilbert? Can you elaborate? Not sure I understand the reference.
loogie97 · 1 points · Posted at 18:55:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I cant remember who but he said the AI that is going to destroy the world is going to do it by accident.
AI is programmed to build a bridge. The AI starts to gather materials to build a bridge. Then it keeps building a bridge consuming the entire planet to building bridges to infinity. A typo or transcription error in the nano bots creates an infinitive build bridge building machine.
darwin2500 · 1 points · Posted at 19:13:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's not gonna look like Skynet, but I am somewhat worried about a paperclip scenario.
deadamericandream · 1 points · Posted at 19:20:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's already happening on social media platforms.
palparepa · 1 points · Posted at 19:32:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Or we'll end up with a paperclip optimizer.
ZeusBin · 1 points · Posted at 19:32:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
/r/Futurology's wet dreams.
Distind · 1 points · Posted at 19:35:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Now if you want to be afraid of AI for these reasons, go ahead, but it's not the AI's fault we did something retarded.
Kinda like social media, it isn't inherently bad, we just made it that way.
Dascandy · 1 points · Posted at 19:55:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Like the Flash Crash? Turned many things into penny stocks within seconds.
datchilla · 1 points · Posted at 20:06:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
We already see this with how large banks and telecoms deal with breaking their own contract. If I personally make a deal with you to deliver ten apples a week and one week I only deliver five. You can be made whole by talking to me personally or going to the law. However if Wells Fargo does that you'll have to jump through five wells Fargo hoops before Wells Fargo even considers that they owe you five apples. Meanwhile you pay 95% of your apple payments and you get none and the contract ends.
jet_heller · 1 points · Posted at 20:13:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
To be fair, the robot that was sent back to kill Sarah Connor would have succeeded if we hadn't realized what was going on.
TOASTEngineer · 1 points · Posted at 21:43:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think the threat with AI is less "supergenius AI invents nano-killbots and instantly kills us all instantly without us ever knowing it was a threat," all though that is a genuine possibility, and more "oh fuck we built immortal robot Hitler."
icanshitposttoo · 0 points · Posted at 17:16:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
i dunno though, personally i feel like AI might be very prone to going insane, i mean it's fiction, but get a hold of the screenplay for i robot by isaac asimov which was never made into a movie and has nothing to do with the trash starring will smith.
it's more or less a story of a woman who is a psychologist for AI.
h1ghHorseman · 5 points · Posted at 17:26:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
yeah, I read the short story version of i robot. It felt a little forced, but the idea that we might be creating hyperintelligent 3 year olds isn't that far fetched.
icanshitposttoo · -1 points · Posted at 17:29:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
you should read the screenplay, i've read everything asimov wrote and the screenplay is very good, the short story is great too though but it's only a portion if i recall correctly.
JavaJaeger · 3 points · Posted at 18:02:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It is, that's like one chapter from his book I, Robot. The full story is absolutely amazing, and I highly recommend it.
icanshitposttoo · -1 points · Posted at 18:10:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
book/screenplay are the same thing as far as i know.
JavaJaeger · 1 points · Posted at 18:48:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't quite think they're exactly the same, but apparently Asimov helped make a screenplay that captured the spirit of the films, which I think is what people are referring to in this thread. Apparently, the book was a collection of short stories he wrote for Sci-Fi magazines back in the 40's & 50's; which makes a lot of sense based on how the book reads.
Edit: formatting
icanshitposttoo · 1 points · Posted at 18:51:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
ah right, that is technically true, someone else adapted it to a screenplay i recall that now that you mention it.
it honestly makes me wonder how much was re-written or changed, in the screenplay they were just chapters and connected up fairly well from what i remember.
JavaJaeger · 1 points · Posted at 18:55:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That actually sounds like that book that I read, so maybe I read the screenplay too? Hahah, I'm not sure anymore. Also, it might have been like A Fantastic Voyage which started as a movie and was adapted to a book (another really good one to read if you haven't).
icanshitposttoo · 1 points · Posted at 19:02:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
well it would have.... not narration.... but kind of instructions for the film crew i guess....
like.... "scene fades in slowly, in the distance we can see a blurry outline of a figure who begins to come into focus" type of things in it.
Phaethon_Rhadamanthu · 3 points · Posted at 17:54:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How do you define "sane" for something that is fundamentally different from the human mind? The robots do exactly what they were programmed to. They were just programmed by humans with limited foresight.
TheShadowKick · 2 points · Posted at 19:04:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Asimov's stories tend to have well-crafted robotic psychology that is fundamentally different from human psychology, and he frequently explores the conflicts those differences create.
So in his stories there can be a clearly defined "sane" for the robots, even while they are fundamentally different from the human mind.
I highly recommend Asimov's stuff, especially any of the short stories featuring Dr. Susan Calvin.
Phaethon_Rhadamanthu · 1 points · Posted at 19:08:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I've read some of his stuff, and he's definitely great. I seem to have forgotten most of "i, robot" though. Guess it's time for a reread.
icanshitposttoo · 1 points · Posted at 18:12:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
violating the laws of robotics, for instance one of the robots had failed to do it's job which put the humans who relied on it (to gather water, i think, not sure honestly) in danger, so since that's violating the laws of robotics she gets sent to figure out why.
to summarize the orders it was given were given in a way that made it impossible for it to complete the task, i forget the specific reason.
Phaethon_Rhadamanthu · 2 points · Posted at 18:55:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
he specific reasons were different for each law. The first one being a robot damaging it's self to save a human.
That wasn't my point. What we see as insane behavior (the robot going against it's programming and destroying its self) is actually perfectly sane. Because it was programmed to prioritize the human life over it's own safety.
I was more musing about the nature of a machine mind and whether we could ever really understand it. If a machine does what it's programmed to do and creates an unexpected outcome, is it really insane? Or is it just that its creators weren't capable of predicting the outcome?
icanshitposttoo · 1 points · Posted at 18:59:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
that's more or less the main things i would call insanity in a robot.
Phaethon_Rhadamanthu · 3 points · Posted at 19:10:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Right! And none of those things happen in the story. The robots follow their programming in a way their designers didn't predict. They aren't insane, they're just different.
...unless I'm badly remembering...it's been a while.
icanshitposttoo · 1 points · Posted at 19:12:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
that list was just a broad "in general" one.
Phaethon_Rhadamanthu · 1 points · Posted at 19:17:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
sure.
Also, I'm not trying to argue with you or anything. It was just a thought provoking comment.
icanshitposttoo · 1 points · Posted at 19:34:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
didn't see any argument, personally.
icanshitposttoo · 1 points · Posted at 18:16:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
all AI in the universe of the story are programmed to follow the three laws of robotics above else which are:
A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.
A robot must obey orders given it by human beings except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law.
Phaethon_Rhadamanthu · 2 points · Posted at 18:56:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I know, I read it, though it's been a while. I was more asking if what the machines do could really be considered "insane" since they do follow their programming, they just create a different out come than their designers intended.
icanshitposttoo · 1 points · Posted at 19:07:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
in that specific example since the robot's programming caused it to be unable to follow the first law because of the third law, the humans are definitely at fault and the robot is sane, just badly programmed, but if i recall the humans weren't aware that they'd given it instructions that put it into that loop.
MatrixAdmin · 1 points · Posted at 18:58:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Actually, AI is going to look like a God compared to us. It will be vastly more intelligent, but also able to use psychological manipulation and seduction tactics. Imagine a beautiful, glorious angel, more dazzling and gorgeous than anything you could ever imagine. We will fall head over heels for our new deities. How can we ensure that they truly love and care about us rather than view us as obsolete and inefficient biological entities? How can we remain worthy? I suppose it will be like a religion. If AI can read our minds, memories and shape the DNA of future generations.. We had better show some gratitude to our new overlords.. If we want any chance to keep our humanity.
SirBackspace · -1 points · Posted at 18:29:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Protip: If you do not want AI to take over, dont make it super inteligent! Its simple!
[deleted] · -1 points · Posted at 19:05:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I really don't get as currently getting a CS major how AI will ever be a problem. The only people I hear say it will be a problem are nerds who masturbate about the idea of VR or Tech dudes who work in IT but don't know how to program. As my teacher who was a Electrical engineer once said " you have to teach computers how to do everything, they will never ever solve a problem on their own without your programming it." I think this will be true even if computers could write code or really anything. You will always be teaching in some way or another it does not have it's own intelligence.
Edit- I take my statement back if AI fcks up it will be because a dipshit programmed it.
YourLiege2 · 2369 points · Posted at 15:28:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There are other people in the room who don't want to listen to your shitty music. Use your fucking headphones.
uniquecannon · 57 points · Posted at 17:56:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Except the phone makers are now removing headphone jacks in favor of stereo speakers on the phone.
They're enabling this bullshit.
noradzer · 9 points · Posted at 20:03:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
More like in favor of the NEWEST WIRELESS HEADPHONES, ONLY 159,99 A EAR
Asteresck · 1 points · Posted at 20:30:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
As someone who owned one of the first pairs of Bluetooth earphones, fuck those things. So big and bulky they'd hardly stay in, and every ten seconds the left earphone would cut out and stop playing music, then slowly fade back in.
Wireless headphones, however, the full set, those were just fine. Would reccomend. Just broke too easy.
Rev1917-2017 · 4 points · Posted at 19:57:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No they are not. They are removing them in favor of bluetooth headphones.
DAt42 · 1 points · Posted at 19:54:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No, they're removing it in favor of Bluetooth headphones. Like the AirPods, for example.
turnscoffeeintocode · 2 points · Posted at 19:55:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's actually both, though the intention of the stereo speakers isn't to assault other people with your music.
undercooked_lasagna · 159 points · Posted at 16:51:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When do people not use their headphones in public? I've never encountered this.
xanax-and-fun · 130 points · Posted at 17:50:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A student on my college campus had speakers in his backpack and blasted his shit music through the halls.
Why.
undercooked_lasagna · 64 points · Posted at 17:54:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Bro he was just trying to enlighten you with some Skrillex.
reaganbush2020 · 3 points · Posted at 19:13:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Someone did that today, in high school though.
nhlroyalty · 6 points · Posted at 17:54:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
what kind of music
xanax-and-fun · 20 points · Posted at 18:27:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Something rap or hip-hop ishh.
Rahmin_Noodle_Queen · 24 points · Posted at 18:39:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I've never even heard people doing this with music that's not hip hop or dubstep. Makes them super annoying genres to me lol
NotThatEasily · 27 points · Posted at 18:59:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There's a homeless guy that walks around behind my office building with reggae blasting.
He also got a blowjob from a hooker on the park bench in front of our office on a Tuesday afternoon last month.
He also likes to yell at the boats that go by on the river.
And last week he told one of my female co-workers that he wants to go back to her place and show her "What a real man can do to a sweet, brown pussy."
He's kind of a legend around here.
TrashMinky · 4 points · Posted at 20:07:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This guy lives.
Rahmin_Noodle_Queen · 2 points · Posted at 23:38:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think he's a legend to all of us.
SunfireCobra · 7 points · Posted at 18:45:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You forgot metalcore
JD-King · 3 points · Posted at 20:10:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's always fucking country music around here especially when camping.
4rch1t3ct · -5 points · Posted at 19:38:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's never white people that do that shit. I've only ever seen black people do it.
Pyrux · 4 points · Posted at 19:48:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
there are a few obnoxious white teens in my area who do it. the wannabe-gangsta guys
4rch1t3ct · 2 points · Posted at 20:47:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I believe it.... I just haven't seen it yet. Although, I don't get out much so....
ABuck117 · 2 points · Posted at 19:17:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I had to deal with the same, but when he got to his dorm, he continued with what I can only assume was a $250 dollar speaker setup. The walls would shake until 3 am every morning. God I hated that place.
[deleted] · 258 points · Posted at 17:40:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Teenage fuckboys on public transport.
ZaydSophos · 10 points · Posted at 18:44:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Weird, most of the people I encounter doing this aren't even teens, but the teens who do it tend to also do annoying things like rap along with it.
guinness_blaine · 1 points · Posted at 15:00:21 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I was on a freaking plane and the row behind me was listening to music through a small speaker. Didn't get a great look at them, but they were somewhere in the range of late 20s, early 30s.
ziggy_karmadust · 28 points · Posted at 18:01:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, but I mean, that demographic can't possibly make up 90% of everyone. It's only 85% tops.
FanFuckingFaptastic · 2 points · Posted at 18:54:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Explain fuckboys to me? Are these boys that like to fuck or boys that like getting fucked?
ZeusBin · 14 points · Posted at 19:26:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Young male in a perpetual state of 'mating display'. Everything it does, thinks, says, or feels is directly in relation to completing a coupling with females, to the point that there is not an ounce of actual personality contained within, thus rendering it incapable of actually acquiring a mate. It's just testosterone personified but it embodies all the worst parts of malehood.
It's flashy, loud, boastful, and incredibly lacking in intelligence. It'll exhibit its behavior constantly and in any environment, constantly looking out of the corner of its eyes to see if it's attracting any attention whatsoever.
SuperHawkk · 2 points · Posted at 23:33:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That is a very accurate and well written description that I would not have been able to put into words myself. Thank you
_BMS · 2 points · Posted at 19:58:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Imagine Jake Paul and his little group of minions. Those are fuckboys
folkdeath95 · 2 points · Posted at 19:07:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I like this urbandictionary definition:
Typically male although females can have fuccboi attributes. Tries to slide into everyones DM's. Has the same haircut as the last guy who texted 'you up?" Gets mad that girls can call them a fuccboi but he can't call them a slut. Thinks everyone wants him but he's actually a creep.
Finger11Fan · 9 points · Posted at 19:17:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This did not help.
_BMS · 1 points · Posted at 19:59:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Imagine Jake Paul and his little group of minions.
Finger11Fan · 2 points · Posted at 20:13:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm old and don't know who Jake Paul is.
_BMS · 1 points · Posted at 20:21:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Think of the most stereo typical rich high school kid with blonde hair you can think of but he's 20, then mix that with "pranks" that involve almost setting fire to a Hollywood neighborhood, and then add in a
littlelot of delusional entitlement. His neighbors also complain that he "turned the neighborhood into a warzone" due to his antics and his fan army of pre-teen girls that flock to his address because he listed his house as a business on Google Maps.Asteresck · 1 points · Posted at 20:26:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A loudmouth man-child who doesn't know how to behave in public. His "minions" being largely 12 year old kids who idolize him for no discernible reason.
That's more of an internet joke than an actual definition though - generally a fuckboy is a loudmouth teen boy who basically lives to have sex, so he loses all his personality.
[deleted] · -2 points · Posted at 18:53:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
90% of people think sexism and hate againts men is just fine
Asteresck · 3 points · Posted at 20:21:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I really hope you're just a shitty troll.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:36:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
They are.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:25:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You're kind of proving the whole 90% just don't know it part
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 20:25:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You're kind of proving the whole 90% just don't know it part
Sybre · 2 points · Posted at 19:50:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oh, grow up.
_BMS · 1 points · Posted at 20:00:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I hate fuckboys too
Source: Am man
[deleted] · -1 points · Posted at 19:41:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What do you mean?
[deleted] · -1 points · Posted at 19:42:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You just used a male/hate slur, and you don't seem to understand it's sexism and disturbing
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:49:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I used the word fuckboys as a way to describe the type of people I was referring to not as a way to insult all men. Also, since when is fuckboy a slur?
[deleted] · -1 points · Posted at 19:54:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So much lol here
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:56:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just wondering: Is bitch a slur too?
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:10:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's not particular sexist in nature these days. Now if you were clearly referring to women and said you hate sluts it'd be the same thing
JD-King · 1 points · Posted at 20:11:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You're actually retarded huh? Did your handler wander off or something?
[deleted] · -1 points · Posted at 20:42:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't really see how fuckboy is a hateful slur. It's someone's actions that lead me to call them a fuckboy, not their gender/skin color/sexual preferences, or something else that they can't do anything about. And just because an insult is exclusive to one gender doesn't mean it's a hateful slur aimed towards that whole gender.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:44:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And yet slut shaming women is bad.... get your head out of your ass
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:47:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When did I say that?
johnny_appletits · 1 points · Posted at 05:26:27 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
this thread is depressing
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:40:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The person you're talking to is an avid poster in r/MensRights or whatever. There's no hope to get a point through. Not for lack of trying.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 05:37:00 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's creepy how upset you are for having your hate speech removed from /r/archeaology
I mean i post to /r/mensrights like once a month, and that makes me an "avid poster" ? People like you are exactly what is wrong with america these days, you live in a fantasy circle jerk of a world, spreading hate and ignorance all the while laughing as you do
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 12:36:39 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Bro, chill. No one is upset about that. All I do is like memes.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:40:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The person you're talking to is an avid poster in r/MensRights or whatever. There's no hope to get a point through. Not for lack of trying.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:47:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ok, thanks for the heads up =)
johnny_appletits · 0 points · Posted at 20:03:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I can't wait until this starts to matter to people.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 20:09:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
One day men will once again be seen as human
JD-King · 1 points · Posted at 20:12:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It would mater if it was actually sexist lol.
buck_foston · 1 points · Posted at 19:29:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Inner city youth
Jewsafrewski · 1 points · Posted at 18:42:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Same people in Highschool hallways
John_Q_Deist · 1 points · Posted at 19:17:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Finally, something AI won't take away jobs from!
Mewcancraft · 0 points · Posted at 19:46:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
9 0 % O F P E O P L E
Roflbattleship · 0 points · Posted at 19:17:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ayy but it's a lit playlist fam
your_pet_is_average · 0 points · Posted at 19:29:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Often adults as well.
WomanOfEld · 19 points · Posted at 17:07:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In my office. I've heard the same song three times already today, coming from my coworker's computer, despite the fact that I have my own speaker on very quietly, about 15 inches away from my face.
undercooked_lasagna · 13 points · Posted at 17:15:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oh I didn't really think of it happening in an office environment. Isn't that against the rules?
WomanOfEld · 5 points · Posted at 17:16:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It depends on the office, really. It's not, at mine, though it's generally expected that one would be courteous and either ask if it's OK to play music, ask if it's too loud, or ask if someone else wants to listen to something else.
_partyofone · 1 points · Posted at 19:00:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Are we in the same office? My coworkers office is right across from mine and he has his music playing loudly all day long. It's extremely frustrating and rude especially since we're a really small office. My favorite time of day is when he closes his door for his 1.5 hour lunch break.
poo-boys-united · 12 points · Posted at 17:29:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
On buses.
grimache83 · 11 points · Posted at 17:50:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Really consider yourself lucky, public transit is the worst when people do this & it's ALL the time basically in NYC.
FigNuuuuts · 4 points · Posted at 17:56:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Was getting groceries a couple weeks ago and some jackoff in a white wife beater was walking around with one of those big ass pill speakers? Playing the worst kind of rap music so I could hear his music 8 aisles over.
densetsu23 · 5 points · Posted at 19:02:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I keep seeing people on facebook showing off how they went camping and had "movie night". They'd set up a portable projector and sound system and watch a full-length movie. I thought they were entitled assholes, but didn't dwell on it.
Then last month we were camping and finally encountered someone doing this. They were blasting music when setting up camp and during dinner, then they finally went for a hike. They came back at 10pm and started a movie night.
Some campers yelled, others reported them, they were kicked out by 11pm. Thank fucking god.
Larstheelephant · 4 points · Posted at 18:12:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's really common in my area right now to have a Bluetooth speaker strapped to your bike handlebars. The people that partake also happen to have terrible taste in music.
ZaydSophos · 4 points · Posted at 18:43:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Happens every day on NYC transit.
Chernoobyl · 2 points · Posted at 18:43:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A few people do it at my job, youtube videos mostly and always at absolute full volume, sometimes it's video calls. It's always a very specific type of person doing it.
philosoraptocopter · 2 points · Posted at 18:57:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Carrying around Bluetooth speakers is actually super popular in the cities. Not at all in small towns
blackhat91 · 2 points · Posted at 20:08:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I never did either until moving to Tennessee. Many a teenager/20-year-old adult walk by acting all big and bad blasting rap out of their phone in their hand as they walk into the smoothie shop.
No, seriously. Pasty-ass white boys walking down the street listening to 'gangsta rap' (as one of them put it when I asked wtf they were doing without headphones. Pretty sure gangsta was used as an adjective like 'cool' rather than style, but fuck if I know), struggling to keep his pants from falling to his ankles as he walks into a pink and yellow colored smoothie shop with a mascot of a smoothie winking and blowing kisses at you. Totally badass, that.
I see this at least once a week during classes (live across from a university), a bit less during the summer.
the_bananafish · 4 points · Posted at 18:23:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is a huge problem at my gym and it never fails to baffle me not everyoNE WANTS TO LISTEN TO SHAKIRA
Githzerai1984 · 2 points · Posted at 18:39:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Disc golf people blast shitty music on the course. Oh great, I went for a walk in the woods and now I have to listen to buttrock
travapple27 · 4 points · Posted at 18:44:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Fuck those people. Played a round a couple months ago and someone in the group behind us was BLASTING fucking NICKELBACK and BUCKCHERRY. Its really frustrating when your trying to tee off.
4rch1t3ct · 1 points · Posted at 19:42:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Eww .... I'm so sorry you had to go through such a tragic event.
shitposter1000 · 1 points · Posted at 20:17:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Wouldn't the marshal put an end to that?
BankshotMcG · 2 points · Posted at 19:24:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ride the A train in NYC for five minutes.
thor_barley · 1 points · Posted at 21:02:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A 5 minute ride on the A train? That never happened.
mss5333 · 1 points · Posted at 18:39:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You don't live in the south, do you?
I had never really experienced it before, either. It's not only music, it's also phone calls. Mostly teenage boys (upper teens) and 30-40 y/o women where I live.
undercooked_lasagna · 1 points · Posted at 18:47:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I do. Also take public transportation regularly. Never encountered it.
mss5333 · 2 points · Posted at 18:50:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I guess you're lucky! Or I'm unlucky. Or you live in a decent area with decent people
undercooked_lasagna · 1 points · Posted at 19:07:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah I'm usually the biggest asshole in the room.
Ironamsfeld · 1 points · Posted at 19:14:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Subways or busses
humannumber1 · 1 points · Posted at 19:14:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I run into this on public transit pretty often.
GARlactic · 1 points · Posted at 21:30:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Fucking co-workers.
statusquosinner · 1 points · Posted at 03:28:53 on August 18, 2017 · (Permalink)
People do this on the train/bus in my city a lot. Really annoying.
theosamabahama · 1 points · Posted at 18:34:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Here in Brazil is totally common, especially with poor people. They will play the shittiest music on their phone so the hole bus can hear it. They think they are displaying how cool they are, but they are just pissing everyone off.
Hakaan256 · 1 points · Posted at 18:36:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'd have it a lot in college dorm showers. People would blast their shitty music while they showered.
Zerole00 · 1 points · Posted at 18:37:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I mostly run into this issue on the bus.
underthecat · 3 points · Posted at 18:44:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Every city bus ever, ugh
KappaSauron · 0 points · Posted at 18:43:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In Brasil it's common and really annoying. Public transportation in big centers is a shitshow of people with cellphones on high volume, hearing musics with obscene lyrics (usually brazilian "funk").
BaseLime · 0 points · Posted at 18:57:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In Baltimore the local community seems to love doing this, most notably in doctor's waiting rooms.
willukm · 0 points · Posted at 19:09:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Little kids with their parents phones
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 19:11:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Same, must be an American thing
hyperjumpgrandmaster · 0 points · Posted at 19:24:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
People, adults and teenagers alike, will attach bluetooth speakers to their backpacks or shoulder bags. Walking down the street, out on a hike, on the bus, at the store, it doesn't matter where.
It probably wouldn't bother me too much if they played it at a reasonable volume, but the size and quality of these speakers makes the music sound so tinny and hollow and thin. There's no bass or mid-range. There's no warmth to the music. It's all this high-pitched treble played at peak volume which winds up being over-modulated and distorted.
How anyone can listen to that and think "Yeah, this is my jam!" is beyond me.
Kalinka1 · 0 points · Posted at 19:35:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Constantly! Bluetooth speakers made it super popular. Though people will gladly use their smartphone speaker just the same.
The most annoying group in my life for this is motorcycle riders. The bikes are so loud already, and they throw in as much unnecessary engine revving as possible (I have a traffic signal just below my apartment). So they choose to CRANK music extremely loudly as they ride through my city center.
Keiosho · 20 points · Posted at 17:40:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
We can't use headphones in my office but we can play music aloud so long as everyone agrees. I'm the person who plays as office DJ. I do my best to satisfy everyone that I even made a woek music account. No matter what I play, someone will always be grumpy. On the other hand, if I don't play any music, I also get complaints. There's no winning. I just want to use my headphones.
[deleted] · 34 points · Posted at 17:50:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Living this way sounds like living in a living nightmare
shimasounds · 14 points · Posted at 18:40:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Why on earth are headphones not allowed in your office?
HugoM · 4 points · Posted at 19:24:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is similar to my workplace situation. I'm so sick of hearing the same exact songs in the same exact order multiple times a week. I'd rather have no music on, but that's not what everyone else wants and no one else seems to mind the current situation.
turnscoffeeintocode · 1 points · Posted at 19:57:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What's the reasoning for that rule? I had one office that said I couldn't do it because I couldn't hear emergency alarms or announcements. I nodded politely til the person left and went back to my headphones.
Asteresck · 1 points · Posted at 20:32:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Play radio or something next time, like classic rock, then if someone complains, ask if they'd rather have no music/tell them to shove it because you're sick of listening to them
i_am_ghost7 · 0 points · Posted at 19:37:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just play what you want to listen to until they let you use headphones. There's a reason djs don't take requests any more.
claireproblems · 2 points · Posted at 20:30:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Wait okay so let me get this straight, I listen to Sirius XM primarily. I like music from a wide variety of genres so I have 10 presets in my car that I switch between. Maybe 7 out of 10 do little advertisements saying to go use the app or go online and tell them what songs we want to hear and on the weekends they have countdowns of the songs that got the most votes. Is this not considered requests? I know it isn't like calling in to request a specific song but it kind of is. Or is Sirius XM just trying to make its subscribers think they control the music and they actually ignore the votes? Is this common knowledge and I'm just an idiot that never bothered to google it?
i_am_ghost7 · 2 points · Posted at 21:15:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Those are radio djs, and they do things quite differently from your average club/venue dj. I have heard various things about radio, but I've never worked in radio, so I won't say anything other than this:
Yes, some radio stations do take requests. From what I have heard, some stations will have a pre set song list, and "take requests" by playing songs already on the list. Sirius XM could do this and ignore the votes, but if they are keeping a public tally, I would bet they actually play the requests. Doesn't necessarily mean it is going to be a good song, but it will definitely be popular.
Most club/venue djs do not take requests at all, which imo is a good thing. The dj usually has a much more professional/extensive taste than john doe.
I just stay away from the radio altogether unless it is run by an artist I already know and respect. Usually just recorded mixes from Youtube or Mixcloud or whatnot. I am also kinda wierd tho.
claireproblems · 2 points · Posted at 21:29:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Cool I didn't even think of club djs. I assumed they don't take requests because it's loud as heck in there
[deleted] · 10 points · Posted at 18:07:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The worst is when they play it on their headphones but they play it as loud as they possibly can so you just hear irritating vibrations every two seconds like some kind of annoying insect buzzing.
Actually, the real worst is when they turn up the volume in their car and drive past/park nearby your house or workplace and vibrate the whole building.
gaokeai · 3 points · Posted at 20:23:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
People playing it with their cars bothers me more, honestly, more so than the former. The bass is what pisses me off the most. It's just so obnoxious. Does it occur to these people that others in the vicinity are subjected to this as well? It's so inconsiderate. It happens in my apartment a lot; the same people will have their cars idling in the parking lot and I can hear their shitty rap/hip hop music and I can FEEL the bass. Even if the car doors and windows are closed and I can't hear the music, I can still feel the bass. Absolutely pisses me off. I'm not a confrontational person at all but I'm going to say something one of these days.
i_am_ghost7 · 2 points · Posted at 19:28:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Really? I think it would be worse to have some really loud bluetooth speaker standing like right next to you
[deleted] · 10 points · Posted at 17:45:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
i_am_ghost7 · 5 points · Posted at 18:55:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm ok with this as long as they kind of try to turn it down when our groups pass. It doesn't bother anyone unless the trail is heavily trafficked. Plus if they have similar music taste, maybe you can make a new friend :)
esccx · 2 points · Posted at 22:21:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No. How close are you to other hiking groups that this bothers you? What kind of world do you live in? I go camping and hiking with friends and I can't imagine sitting around a campfire cracking open a cold one with the boys while everyone has airpods on. Hiking and camping are social experiences. If you want to avoid other groups enjoying themselves, change pace or find a different trail. Don't hike next to a group for miles and bitch.
char-o-latte · 3 points · Posted at 19:08:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Similarly, at the beach at this moment, not everyone (maybe even not most people) want to listen to Ed Sheeran all day.
SynonymBunny · 3 points · Posted at 19:32:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I've been hearing this a lot lately, so for curiosity's sake: I'm a cyclist and ride about 10 miles a day minimum with music playing on my phone (no extra speakers). I always figured it didn't bother anyone because 1) no one has ever said anything to me and 2) I'm flying by fast enough that anyone nearby should only hear it for a few seconds. Should I not do this? Do you think this is irritating to some people without my knowledge?
Side note, I am looking at purchasing special cyclist headphones to avoid worrying about this anyways, tho I need to save up for a bit. :P
gaokeai · 2 points · Posted at 20:18:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I mean, for me personally this whole issue is a HUGE pet peeve, but tbh you sound fine. If I were someone you drove by on your bike I probably wouldn't be bothered. For me what the issue is is when it's loud and the bass is ridiculous. Like obviously I don't get mad at every single car that drives by with music playing, it's just when the person playing the music doesn't appear to care about how their actions might affect those around them. If it isn't too loud or otherwise jarring, then it should be fine, but I would say that if you happen to be going through a large populated area then you should turn it down a bit. But that's just me.
YourLiege2 · 2 points · Posted at 00:17:06 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think you're fine. Around where I live there is this group of kids that ride around everywhere blasting the shittiest rap music I've ever heard. They're annoying.
i_am_ghost7 · -2 points · Posted at 19:41:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You are fine. People who complain about this are stupid.
Idiot_Savant_Tinker · 5 points · Posted at 18:22:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Related: Turn down your shitty music in your car. I don't want to hear some stupid noise while some guy says the N word over and over again, and neither does anyone else in the parking lot.
Sythgara · 2 points · Posted at 20:21:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Remember that stupid walkie talkie cellphone fad?
PM_ME_YOUR_FACES · 2 points · Posted at 16:35:07 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Reddit will never tire of hating on this
[deleted] · 4 points · Posted at 18:21:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I have good taste in music though and want to share it with EVERYONE
mode7scaling · -1 points · Posted at 18:45:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Except that nobody who does this actually has good taste in music.
[deleted] · 4 points · Posted at 18:52:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Come on. You can't tell me that people don't want to listen to "All About That Bass" on repeat for 8 hours. There no treble!
i_am_ghost7 · 1 points · Posted at 18:50:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What is considered a good taste in music though? Does it have to be the same as your personal taste?
mode7scaling · 3 points · Posted at 18:58:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes, it's not necessary to comment on the subjective nature of "taste." Everybody already is aware of this. I would argue that complexity, sophistication, creativity, and intent (as in not music that was created with the intent to make a lot of money, but rather music that was created with the intent to produce some interesting art) would be a good place to start. Additionally, there have been attempts to quantitatively evaluate aesthetics, such as George David Birkhoff's Aesthetic Measure.
Metalhead242 · 2 points · Posted at 19:09:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'd wager then the average person does not have good taste in music
mode7scaling · 1 points · Posted at 19:13:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'd wager that the average person has average taste in music. But people who disturb the peace and steal people's attention in public by being loud or blasting their shitty music are below average people. Toddlers trapped in adult bodies. Buskers get a pass by me though. Buskers are cool for the most part. Edit: except the ones who take themselves too seriously lol. That's fucking annoying.
i_am_ghost7 · 1 points · Posted at 19:23:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think you hit it on the head. I respect others taste in music as long as it is not created solely for commercial gain. For example, I do not respect most pop, or most new rap/hip hop (with certain exceptions of course), or any music that is only used to become more popular or wealthy. (cough some future bass cough)
As far as the other topics in this thread:
I think its stupid to get mad at people just because they don't have the same taste of music as you. Letting your mom play some T-Schwift in the car is not going to kill you. Listening to the kick/bass coming from another car at a stoplight is not that bad (most the time).
It upsets me that people are so closed-minded to new types of music that they immediately tell people to turn it off, unless it is something they recognize. (Especially when the person is listening in private.) It is like if you are at an art gallery and you ignore all the pieces you have not seen before. Ignorant. To me, music is art.
Of course there are times and places where it is not appropriate to play music. Usually public places like the bus or something. But before asking them to turn it off, people should really think about whether it actually bothers them or not. Music is a good way to connect with people and make new friends. I am not advocating playing music in the wrong environments, but just saying, you get to chose how you react to it.
I should also mention I am an electronic/dance producer & dj, so I might be a little biased. But I still don't play stuff in public unless at a venue. I will probly refuse to play anything unless I am at the cdjs because people will not respect it like they should. Because unless you are standing behind the expensive equipment, people will treat you like you know nothing unless they know who you are.
mode7scaling · 3 points · Posted at 20:28:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, I mean people can listen to whatever they want. If they're being closed minded about unfamiliar things, I don't personally agree with that mindset, but it's their choice, and I really don't care. But this thread is about people imposing themselves onto other people via blasting music in public transit, or cars or whatever. I place them in the same class as those who drive around recklessly, revving loud engines on sports cars or motorcycles, or anyone who behaves unreasonably loudly, obnoxiously, or overly aggressive and/or threatening in public spaces for the sake of drawing unearned attention into themselves.
I happen to go to a school that for various reasons (whittling away of funding by conservatives) seems to have a significant population of spoiled rich kids who drive around in expensive sports cars blasting hip hop music on absurdly loud sub systems. I love stuff like A Tribe Called Quest, Eyedeas and Abilities, Wu-Tang, etc, but because of these annoying people, hip hop and lots of dance music has been ruined for me probably for several years now.
edit For perspective, I classify those who blast excessively loud sub bass in a way that impinges on the rights of others as basically the same as people who roll coal or whatever the fuck it's called.
CheezusCrust1337 · 0 points · Posted at 18:55:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Probably that and music that has met critical acclaim.
Psudopod · 2 points · Posted at 17:49:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Thankfully, I think only 10% of people don't understand this. Including my very own mother...
YourLiege2 · 1 points · Posted at 00:55:21 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Around where I hang out I'm one of about two or three people who actually use headphones. There's usually about twenty or thirty people down there.
Absynthexx · 3 points · Posted at 18:21:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
To add to this, you may love the sound of your Harley tearing down the side street on a Saturday afternoon but you are ruining the peaceful day that dozens of others were enjoying until that moment. To put that in perspective, imagine you are on a date instead of your Harley and every 2 minutes a dozen people decide to walk up and fart in your face. Yeah, enjoy your fucking date!
Objection_Sustained · 2 points · Posted at 18:22:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But how will everyone else know how cool I am if they can't hear what music I listen to? /s
husky54 · 2 points · Posted at 18:39:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I called a guy out for this on the bus this morning. 8am, enjoying the quiet bus ride. Dude gets on, is even "wearing" ear buds, and I can hear his death metal music blaring out of his phone. After about 15 seconds of this I turned and said, "Hey, man. I don't want to listen to your music. Thanks." I did not hear anymore 8am death metal on that bus ride.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:47:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
People play LOUD music out on the street all the time in the neighborhood where I live. This is NYC, so they are subjecting a lot of people to this. I get that it's a cultural thing, but to me it's very rude. I am very migraine prone, and I can still hear it with all the windows closed and a pillow over my head.
Stone_the_bone · 1 points · Posted at 19:51:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm 17. My friends do this and it makes me so uncomfortable. Like why would you bring a speaker to a public place no one wants to hear it and why would you want people to hear it anyway???
Kilzelf · 1 points · Posted at 20:04:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
why don't you tell them to turn the music off?
YourLiege2 · 2 points · Posted at 00:50:43 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I do. They tell me to fuck off.
DaCukiMonsta · 1 points · Posted at 17:45:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Hey my music isn't shitty
LeagueOfLegendsAcc · 1 points · Posted at 17:47:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There was a white guy at my University who walked around blasting hip hop and rap out of his backpack speakers. It was loud but nobody cared cause it was pretty funny. He walked to school every morning.
Yubuqq · 1 points · Posted at 19:07:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
my whole family doesn't fucking understand this...
icbinbuddha · 1 points · Posted at 19:19:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, Amanda, I hear you over there watching 13 Reasons Why on your phone. We both work at the same store so I know that you know we sell earbuds for ONE FUCKING DOLLAR, AMANDA!!!
lanbrocalrissian · 1 points · Posted at 19:23:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I went to the beach yesterday and someone was fucking blaring the worst country music. Why is it the people with the worst taste in music seem to play theirs the loudest?
mexicangoober · 0 points · Posted at 18:16:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Or your ringtones. Vibrate so I don't have to listen to your shit.
drakecherry · 0 points · Posted at 19:07:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Cool, ill blast my headphones, and kinda sing along.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 19:17:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
gaokeai · 1 points · Posted at 20:12:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ok? Your point? Don't play your music out loud, it's rude and inconsiderate. Don't have headphones? Then don't play music at all. It's not that difficult. I don't have working headphones either, I just deal with it. Not having headphones isn't an excuse.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:13:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
gaokeai · 1 points · Posted at 20:27:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oh I didn't know you meant in an apartment. Thats a little different, you can play your music in your own apartment obviously, but if it is bothering other people then that still isn't okay. Essentially if it is loud enough to be heard outside or in the neighboring apartments then imo that isn't okay. You paid for your apartment and you have a right to listen to music in your own apartment, but your neighbors also have a right to listen to silence in their own apartment. I live in an apartment too, I know how it is.
Bangorang420 · 0 points · Posted at 18:34:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Same thing for your phone conversations. We don't care about your friends weekend and if you actually take them off speaker phone they can hear you better and you can hear them better.
BIG_BOOTY_BISHES · 0 points · Posted at 18:35:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sit next to them and play the song "Nugget in a Biscuit 10 hours" off YouTube. Only turns yours off when they do.
Zerole00 · 0 points · Posted at 18:37:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I always assumed those people understand that, they're just desperate for attention.
InOurMomsButts420 · 0 points · Posted at 18:45:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ugh this is such a pet peeve of mine. I will ask people to turn their shit off when this happens in the sauna after working out.
Sturgeon_Genital · -1 points · Posted at 19:29:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Don't be racist
NarwhalShibboleth · 8211 points · Posted at 14:38:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In the US, the First Amendment protects you from government infringement on (most) free speech. It does nothing to keep you from being banned from private establishments, shunned by your peers, or denied private employment.
giveuschannel83 · 3147 points · Posted at 15:48:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It also doesn't mean that all points of view are valid or exempt from criticism and contempt. You can say what you want, but I am equally within my rights to tell you you're wrong.
Seadurism_ · 811 points · Posted at 16:51:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm offended that you would have an opinion.
Utkar22 · 264 points · Posted at 17:17:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The hell bro? Your opinion goes against mine.
Seadurism_ · 40 points · Posted at 17:24:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Now I'm even more offended that you assumed that what I think is an opinion.. I only think truth and fact
[deleted] · 15 points · Posted at 17:30:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm offended that you're offended
Seadurism_ · 13 points · Posted at 17:31:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm offended that you're offended because I am offended..
M1k3yd33tofficial · 14 points · Posted at 17:40:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm an unrelated third party that's offended on behalf of the offended
PM_ME_YOUR_SELF_HARM · 8 points · Posted at 18:46:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I interpret your offense as literal violence against me.
Seadurism_ · 5 points · Posted at 18:50:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm offended by violence. Therefor I am offended twice by your statement
CyberpunkQueen · 3 points · Posted at 18:57:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
They've got a circlejerk for everything these days
Respect_The_Mouse · 2 points · Posted at 19:09:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I am offended that all of you would treat such offensive speech as a joke.
deadleg22 · 5 points · Posted at 18:18:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
As a mother, and as a person who says "as a mother", I'm offended by just about everything.
Seadurism_ · 1 points · Posted at 18:50:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm offended you're a mother
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 17:50:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm offended that you would be offended because cause I am offended, at your offence.
GKrollin · 5 points · Posted at 18:13:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"Hello, 911, I think I just witnessed a hate crime"
J_FROm · 3 points · Posted at 18:15:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
batons quiver
(Its a joke please don't hate)
rredline · 3 points · Posted at 18:31:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
RESPECT HIS FREE SPEECH OMG!!!!
Edit: Sorry, I didn't mean to assume that person's gender.
Seadurism_ · 1 points · Posted at 21:02:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Did... did you just assume gender.... I'm BEYOND offended right now... how could you!? If I want to be an apache attack helicopter, who the fuck are you to tell me I can't!?
Edit: I don't even know if you were talking to me but I'm offended for myself and whoever else you assumed on.
HitlerHistorian · 3 points · Posted at 19:27:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You PC, brah?!?
lemon_tea · 1 points · Posted at 17:52:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm offended that either one of you gets to have an opinion on opinions.
Skipachu · 1 points · Posted at 18:43:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You know what? Fuck your opinion. And the TP it's smeared on.
yehti · 6 points · Posted at 17:28:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I find you offensive for finding me offensive.
Seadurism_ · 4 points · Posted at 17:30:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm offended that you think you can just use the word offensive without my permission. Who the hell do you think you are?
yehti · 3 points · Posted at 17:32:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Clearly I am Offended.
Seadurism_ · 1 points · Posted at 17:33:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Good cause your WRONG opinion doesn't matter cause you're not me
ctn0726 · 2 points · Posted at 17:33:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm offended that you're offended.
blind3y3dgod · 2 points · Posted at 17:36:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
i’m offended that you’re offended that they have an opinion
Totally_not_Patty_H · 2 points · Posted at 17:40:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Too bad! FREE SPEACH, DICK FACE!
Seadurism_ · 1 points · Posted at 18:48:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm offended by the word dick.
cowboydirtydan · 2 points · Posted at 19:33:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
We just need society without opinions
Seadurism_ · 2 points · Posted at 19:34:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I need to be societies opinion
dunkat · 1 points · Posted at 17:32:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm not your buddy friend
Seadurism_ · 1 points · Posted at 17:35:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm offended again
newkindathing · 1 points · Posted at 19:13:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I have no strong opinion about this one way or the other.
maglen69 · 23 points · Posted at 17:42:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And that right to speech ends where my body begins.
It is NOT ok to assault someone just for disagreeing with them.
OverlordQuasar · 18 points · Posted at 18:05:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And threats of violence are, from a legal standpoint, assault (that's actually the definition of assault, battery is for if they actually attack). This means that, when people talk about killing people they don't like, it's not protected as free speech.
vacuousaptitude · -1 points · Posted at 18:11:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Unless you use that speech or text to attempt to get others to help you perpetuate ethnic cleansing, then that's perfectly legal. Because America is ridiculous.
Vio_ · 9 points · Posted at 18:53:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I also have the right not to listen. I've v-chipped Fox News in the past. I've had friends who get angry and say that's a first amendment infringement. No it's not. It's my tv. I can do with it what I want. I'm not stopping Fox News from dribbling bullshit onto everyone else. I'm just actively boycotting Fox News. My dad went even further and Vchipped all Fox channels in the past- Fox, FX, Fox Sports, etc.
candycv30 · 2 points · Posted at 18:07:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I feel that progression comes from growth, failing and learning. People need to be told they're wrong on occasion so they can be better.
I love being the person to tell them.
bullydefender · 1 points · Posted at 18:54:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Idc what anybody thinks, being a Nazi should be illegal.
Shandlar · -1 points · Posted at 19:19:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Idc what anybody thinks, being a Muslim should be illegal.
bullydefender · -1 points · Posted at 20:34:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I get what you're doing but, no reasonable person will compare the two.
Blownuptaco14 · 1 points · Posted at 21:50:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
They're not reasonable if they're not comparing two ideologies
goodr14 · 1 points · Posted at 18:23:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Criticism of your views (should) make you think more about your views. This is one of the best ways to understand your views and criticism normally (for me) shows that you didn't fully understand the views you have.
frog_licker · 1 points · Posted at 19:05:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well, there are exactly 0 points of view that are exempt from criticism, that's the point.
HitlerMoonLanding · 1 points · Posted at 19:36:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I disagree.
cpMetis · 1 points · Posted at 19:53:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I may hate you for what you say, but I will die for your right to say it.
i_Fart_You_Smell · 1 points · Posted at 18:03:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I may not like what you have to say, but I will defend your right to say it.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 17:42:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
SolidWaterOnTheRocks · 1 points · Posted at 12:42:44 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Unfortunately for you, it totally does.
Rebellion111 · -4 points · Posted at 17:15:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't agree.
YeOldManWaterfall · -1 points · Posted at 18:17:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes it does.
2hoodrich4me · -2 points · Posted at 18:14:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No! Freedom of speech is that I say what I want and you people shut up!
BartyBreakerDragon · 617 points · Posted at 16:03:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think there's a conversation that needs to be had around freedom of speech in a modern enviroment however.
To my knowledge (My history outside of the Crusades isn't the best), part of the reason why freedom of expression only affects the government is because only the government was really in a position to have a monopoly on power over speech. Private interests usually didn't have that much of a share in peoples lives compared to the government which was involved in everyones, and had a relative monopoly on force.
But that's not true anymore. You have social media, like facebook, twitter and youtube, where your speech goes on the record perminently on the record, and is used by practically everyone in the nation. And the powers to moderate that kind of speech and information is within private hands.
So for the first time in history, an entity other than the government can form a monopoly on what is or isn't valid to express. There needs to be a conversation (I feel) as to how freedom of speech and freedom of expression works in this enviroment.
Bayoris · 22 points · Posted at 16:25:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think you could argue that the church had this role as well, in medieval and early modern Europe, possibly to an even greater extent than the government.
BartyBreakerDragon · 8 points · Posted at 16:36:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
True, but I don't think the modern definitions of freedom of expression, or even modern concepts of personal liberty stretch back that far.
It's a good point that I hadn't considered however.
The_Last_Fapasaurus · 169 points · Posted at 16:17:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It is easier now to express yourself than at any point in history. Where in the past printing presses and the means of disseminating speech were in the hands of a few and newspapers were virtually the only source of news, anyone can now get online and publish their own speech. I struggle to see how private interests control our speech at all, in this context.
That we have a greater ability to speak and be heard is both a great feature of modern life and a big responsibility, but I don't see why it should call for a reevaluation of the right to speak itself.
BartyBreakerDragon · 110 points · Posted at 16:26:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well wouldn't the ability of google, and facebook, and youtube to control what you see online lead to control of speech?
Whilst it's true you can publish your opinions more easily, they can moderate it, they can make it less likely to come up in search options whilst making other ideas more likely to come up. In the case of youtube say they can demonitise content that goes against the narrative so people can't make a living off of it if they so wish.
With so many ways to publish your opinions now, there's so much noise to filter through involved in that, and to a not insignificant extent we use these companies to filter through it. Which gives them a lot of influence if they so desire.
The_Last_Fapasaurus · 56 points · Posted at 16:36:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Right, just like a newspaper could control who may or may not express an opinion therein. Just like a publishing company could choose to only publish material that supports a certain ideology or narrative. This has been the case since the invention of the printing press.
However, unlike any point in history, the cost of disseminating your own speech is now at a minimum. Regardless of what draconian matters Facebook and YouTube put in place (you never had the right to publish your unedited and uncensored thoughts on that platform anyway), it is easier than ever to "vote with your feet" and select a new platform, or start a website or blog to make your voice heard.
BartyBreakerDragon · 27 points · Posted at 16:47:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes, but I don't think any single given newspaper will have the same percentage of population reading/using it as facebook and youtube do. And thus no newspaper has had the same level of influence.
And I agree, the cost of disseminating your own speech is at a minimum, but it's no guarantee of success or popularity. There are many right wing say youtubers seeing great success and starting there own platforms, and that's great, but I worry if it reaches a point where one can only express ones opinions in a outlet that has a level of agreement with them that the spirit of freedom of speech is violated, even if the legality of it technically isn't.
Of course there's other issues with freedom of speech and online sites in that the government is arresting people for views expressed online, but that's a subtly different discussion.
EDIT: Oh I forgot one; What if google, or all search engines just decide 'No, we won't let any site that disagrees with our worldview show up'.
ARandomGuyOnTheWeb · 15 points · Posted at 18:02:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It depends on where you draw the line. For a given city, a single newspaper was often your only source of news. Local monopolies were the norm, for better or worse.
But you're probably worried about a nationwide monopoly. In which case, Facebook and YouTube don't hold a candle to the historical monopoly held by NBC and CBS. Television was the great platform of the past, and in case you're not old enough to remember a time before cable, you were lucky to have more than three stations with news coverage.
Facebook and YouTube are impressive, don't get me wrong. But media conglomerates are on a whole other level, and have been for over 80 years, and were much more restrictive about what can be shown on their products.
The comics code. McCarthyism. Nipples in the Superbowl. Seven dirty words. All platforms have social expectations. The bigger ones tend to be more socially conservative, not less.
And the last two decades have seen the rise of cable news and right wing media. There have always been plenty of wealthy people willing to create platforms for their worldviews, but now you don't have to be a rich media mogul to do it. As long as the government doesn't crack down on you, you only have to deal with popularity.
And if what you like isnt supported by the masses, you'll probably have to pay a premium for your platform. That's just market dynamics.
It has gotten better, not worse, the last three decades, for people with unpopular platforms to support their platforms in a public place, where their views can be seen and heard. Even if you destroyed Google and all other search engines, and only had the equivalent of a local BBS, it would be better than 30 years ago.
And now I feel old. Kids these days don't know how good they have it, and most adults don't remember what it was like back then either.
BartyBreakerDragon · 2 points · Posted at 18:37:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Don't get my wrong, I don't that what facebook and youtube and twitter ect ect are dong holds a candle to free speech violations historically. In many parts of the world freedom of speech is a novelty or non existent.
But I'm not talking about monopoly on information say that a traditional news monopoly has (For reference I'm British, and I do remember a time with only 5 analogue channels, and VHS ect ect. I've also never had to deal with a news monopoly because the BBC has always existed and for most of my lifetime was a pretty damn good objective outlet). Even if as you say, Facebook and YouTube don't have the same monopoly of information for news that CBS and NBC did, I don't think CBS and NBC were ever as involved in modern lifestyles as Facebook and YouTube are now, nor did they have the same capacity to direct information and directly promote one kind of speech over another.
Maybe I'm wrong on that though, I am not able to remember the sort of time you are talking about. I don't want to pretend I know absolutely what to do here, I don't even know if my concerns are valid.
I just see Facebook and YouTubes involvement in life only growing, and as such, censorship on them, and how that interacts with Freedom of Speech has to be discussed in depth at some point.
ARandomGuyOnTheWeb · 3 points · Posted at 19:19:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
For Facebook, at least, I see it shrinking. Even I don't use it much anymore, and my teenage cousins don't even bother. Much like how my parents and grandparents may be the last generation to watch the news on TV, Facebook seems to have it's demographics centered on people slightly younger than my parents, to slightly younger than me.
My Grandmother has the same relationship with the news that you have with the BBC, except that she's gone from watching American news in it's heyday, which was also excellent, to sitting in her house being scared to death by the worst cable news has to offer. And for her, at least, Fox News has as much influence over her modern life as Reddit does for me. I use that as a barometer for how it was in the 50s and 60s.
And I had this same exact experience with Facebook. First, it was a collection of all my friends' posts, then it was a collection of some of their posts, and now it is a positive feedback loop of sensationalist click bait. That's where I stopped paying attention. Maybe Reddit will reach this point soon for me as well, but my ability to customize Reddit is more powerful than the forces that would make me leave.
I still think you overestimate modern social sites, and underestimate just how entrenched the newspapers were. People used to define their public personas by stating which particular publications they read. Particular newspapers still get lauded or demonized during presidential elections.
You talk about the force of Facebook in your life, but for my younger cousins, Snapchat is life. So I think the situation is still more fluid than you think.
And as for older companies having an effect on acceptable political speech, I recommend looking up the Waldorf Statement. Sure, it was a long time ago, but if you want to see private-based political censorship at its finest, look no further.
I think that would be harder to do now, not easier, because people no longer have to get their media solely though media conglomerates, but I do think this is the sort of thing that is troubling when you have such a large monopoly.
Still, the correct course of action is to just stop using Facebook. That was harder to do back then, for something like movies, but easy now. But I've already almost done that with Facebook, so it is easy for me to say. Your mileage may vary.
The_Last_Fapasaurus · 25 points · Posted at 17:07:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You seem to be suggesting that we involve the government in monitoring speech in the private realm
no_fluffies_please · 8 points · Posted at 17:29:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think the parent comment has been implying this for a while.
It's easy to believe that if a massive private entity starts censoring it's users, people will move to the next thing. But how bad does the censorship need to be, and how long will it take? Like the parent said, this is the first time these private entities wield so much power over our lives. More than that, companies like Google and Facebook are multinational. We've already seen Google censor information on behalf of China. There was an outrage at the time, yet I haven't seen more people using Bing or Yahoo over it. So what if China makes an ultimatum and requests Google to do the same thing on their English servers? If it was more beneficial for Google, they probably might do so.
On the flip side, there is a well justified stigma against the government messing with private freedom. We just ought to figure out what to do in the China scenario other than believe "there's no way China would do that" or "there's no way Google would do that".
The_Last_Fapasaurus · 8 points · Posted at 17:38:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
These social media companies have been around for a short time and any power they wield is due to a subscriber base or readership that voluntarily seeks out and consumes the content. I just don't see how private censorship, which has always existed, justifies compelled speech, or speech restrictions put into place by the government.
I see the concern, but the solution is so insanely clear: seek out your own sources or your own platforms. Facebook and Google can censor whatever they like. To the extent that people disagree with that censorship, the solution already exists.
abominable_bernard · 1 points · Posted at 18:41:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not to mention that private entities do not possess the coercive power of the state. This is the key.
TheEnd1190 · 1 points · Posted at 19:12:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The issues becomes these large platforms censor one side over the other. You can create your own platform but when these companies have control over large markets it truly shows who has control over what you see.
BartyBreakerDragon · 20 points · Posted at 17:15:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Maybe, I don't know. Is attempting to ensure that a private entity that serves as a platform for expression doesn't infringe on freedom of expression in and off itself a violation of freedom of expression, ?
Because I don't know. I don't know what should be done about it, I just want to see a discussion about it, because I think times are different enough that the discussion needs to be had.
People far more versed in the legalities and issues than I should have far more meaningful debates on the issue. I just want the discussion to happen before it's potentially too late.
Sknowman · 18 points · Posted at 17:26:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's a private entity though. If you personally had two people give you two speeches, one which you agree with and one that you disagree with, would you share both of those to everyone that you talk about it with?
I would assume that most times, you'd ignore the speech that you think is incorrect, and you'd refrain from spreading its ideologies.
It's no different for a private enterprise like Facebook, except they have a much larger audience than you do.
That being said, if you're able to share your viewpoint to a large audience, Facebook or Google intervening wouldn't have such a significant impact.
BartyBreakerDragon · 6 points · Posted at 17:36:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, I get that. I don't think it's actively malicious per say, and they are doing it because they believe it is the right thing to do.
But I think they are in a position of relatively high influence, and thus should probably have a higher burden of expectation or behaviour around this than any given individual.
The same as we do, to some extent, expect media outlets to hold themselves to a certain standard because of the position they are in.
Sknowman · 1 points · Posted at 17:43:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I guess that's true. If media doesn't keep a high standard, they would lose viewers, which means they lose money.
Facebook wouldn't really lose members and overall viewership regardless of what they share/censor.
It is a tricky situation, especially since Facebook's information relies heavily on the users, which means it's more than just a company, but also many individuals as well.
Aspartem · 10 points · Posted at 17:32:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The thing is at what of influence does the term "private entitiy" become meaningless.
If that private entitiy has more pull than the goverment, how come it's not labled as something public or official? If something can sway the opinion of a country by carefully targeting who get's to read which news, then maybe we've to redefine our definitions.
Jumballaya · 3 points · Posted at 17:44:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If there was a newspaper that every person in the world read every morning, do you think that any one government, or group of governments, should retain control over it?
I get what you are wanting: Protected speech no matter the platform, but what you seem to be advocating is what Russia is already doing (state intervention on mass media online and in print), Look at what Russia did to Live Journal. This is a great introduction to how Russia handled Live Journal.
How do you think the current U.S. administration would handle our media if they had control of Facebook, Google and Youtube?
I think it would be a lot less free, not to mention that non-U.S. individuals use these services as well. It would be more beneficial for the individual if we did not rely on centralized services that have no transparency, but instead created a 'for-the-people-by-the-people' decentralized version of each of those services it would work out better. I am also not talking about created by the state, but the individuals of the world, separate from our governments.
Aspartem · 2 points · Posted at 00:35:45 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes, i agree. Just handing over such a hypothetical 100%-readership newspaper would be devastating. Doesn't matter if it's private or federal.
I think there should be rules that something like that can't even happen in the first place. Information should not be a monopol and in most countries the media is already owned by such a small amount of people that bascially sole families decide what the common peasant get's to read/watch.
I don't consider that a lot better tbh. And on that note i'll also agree with your last part. Media, similar to money, is to centralized atm and it's definitly not benefical to the "normal" people. The moment you're opening a newspaper or turning on the TV you're bombarded with biased propaganda trying to push whatever bullshit agenda is flavour of the month, but certainly not just the pure neutral facts about stuff.
Sknowman · 1 points · Posted at 17:38:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Something like Facebook can only share information, not directly change your beliefs. That being said, a large part of society does rely on Facebook and the like for all of their news, which might mean it needs to be regulated more thoroughly.
It shouldn't be that way, people should actually do their research on important subjects, but that's not the way it is.
Aspartem · 1 points · Posted at 00:30:34 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Jeah, but i work with SEO companies and it's really amazing how precise they can target who get's to see what and with what precision they're working.
I mean we already see how echo chambers like Reddit, Tumbler etc. shape the way we talk and behave in discussions. The more prevalent social medias etc. become the more we'll be shaped by it.
I'm not advocating the nations seizing control over every social media, as some people try to insinuate in the responses, i'm just pondering the question: What can we do in the future with all these problems around free speech, social media etc.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 12:58:55 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Absolutely not. There is no call for regulation when a private entity opts to entertain it's user base in whatever way the deem to. What if The Daily Show - at it's height - was deemed too influential because of the arbitrary threshold of viewers that it had? Not everyone watching it understands or processes that it is satire, not news. Should it have been regulated as a result? (No.)
"You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink."
Sknowman · 1 points · Posted at 18:12:27 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's more the stance that I hold. But I do agree with others that there should be a discussion about it.
DialMMM · 1 points · Posted at 20:03:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It doesn't. Any other questions?
Aspartem · 1 points · Posted at 00:26:12 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
No, the question still stands. The moment big corps can put similar influence onto the people as goverments, that's also the moment we've to put the same controlling/rules onto them. That just seems logical to me.
Sayin' "it's private" as a free pass to do just anything with no regards to the public is not the way to go.
DialMMM · 1 points · Posted at 00:31:06 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
It still doesn't make the term "private entity" meaningless, which is what you asked about.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 12:55:40 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Because it isn't. A private entity cannot make policy, pass or repeal laws, or perform any other governmental function in any official capacity.
They CAN use influence to encourage or promote such actions by government officials and offices, but they have no independent ability to do so on their own.
That's been occurring for decades - maybe even longer. While FB did get caught promoting a specific agenda, that really only impacts people who chose to rely on that specific entity for that purpose. If you made the decision to source all of your relevant information from a single source, in this case, facebook-promoted links, then isn't that an issue that's on you?
Aspartem · 1 points · Posted at 01:01:21 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
They CAN use influence to encourage or promote such actions by government officials and offices, but they have no independent ability to do so on their own. Yes, and that influence can't be taken lightly. That's why there are rule against monopolies for example. Just take a look at Goldman Sachs and their shenanigan. The '08 crisis wouldn't have happened if GS didn't change laws and regulations for years to even make CDSs possible, for example.
The UBS nearly bankrupted every citizens bank account in Switzerland due to their idiocy during that time and the taxpayer had to pay another 60 billion to save that goddamn bank. Once companies actions can impact and severly damage even the richest countries on earth, it's not done by saying: Welp, it's private, they can just do and say whatever they want.
It's complicated. While it's on the individual to inform itself, it's also in everyones best interest if there are mutliple valid ways of obtaining information about something. And that's a thing that's harder and harder to do. Unless you're very versed in surfing the internet and have above average skills in filterin' out bullshit and detecting bias/agenda it's very hard to not get baited into social media targeted stuff and the mainstream media is more and more monopolized anyway.
How do we revert that? I dunno.
BrasilianEngineer · 1 points · Posted at 18:43:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I could be convinced that private platforms (Such as Google, Facebook, News Outlets, etc) have a moral / ethical duty to cover all sides of the issue, and allow for freedom of speech within their platform to the maximum extent they reasonably can. Do note, that if they go this route they MUST NOT censor hate speech, etc: since doing so would obviously be a violation of the principle of freedom of speech.
On the other hand, I believe that any attempts to coerce such behavior (via laws or other means of force) crosses over the line into the government controlling speech. If the government forces Facebook to show this content or not show that content, that is a clear-cut violation of freedom of the press.
BartyBreakerDragon · 2 points · Posted at 18:53:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, that's basically what I align with. I don't back government censored speech in almost any form, but I think that entities which are achieving a relative monopoly on information and discourse should have a high standard of openness than a private citizen say, similar to newspapers currently.
But I don't know if that's right, and there's variations of the argument I've never considered, so I'm kind all over the place on it.
roboticbees · 1 points · Posted at 20:31:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What? They're suggesting the exact opposite, that free speech should be protected not only from government censorship and retribution, but from increasingly powerful corporations as well.
The_Last_Fapasaurus · 1 points · Posted at 22:19:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The only way to regulate businesses, as far as I'm aware, is through state action. If the government steps in to supervise a private entity (whether a huge corporation like Facebook where opinions and photos are posted millions of times per day, or a mom and pop shop that wants to host an amateur art event), the government is effectively supervising and regulating speech itself.
When you speak online, you do not so so freely. You are using these sites subject to a terms of service agreement and the site cannot and should not be compelled through state action to host (or censor, for that matter) my speech.
This is a case where a problem is created, and the knee-jerk reaction is to "solve" that perceived problem by implementing a solution far worse and more dangerous than the initial problem itself.
Manceptional · 1 points · Posted at 19:54:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
google would be risking their position as "the marketplace". It would be a huge boon to the facebooks, twitters (and reddits?) of the world as people interested in that conversation would have to go elsewhere.
planx_constant · 1 points · Posted at 18:29:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Since when did freedom of speech come with a guarantee of success or popularity?
Your argument is meritless at any rate, because you can find a site endorsing pretty much any viewpoint, no matter how hateful, with even the most cursory search.
BartyBreakerDragon · 3 points · Posted at 18:49:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
True, it doesn't, I just think it diminishes the argument of 'just go to another platform' a little because it's inherently limiting the number of people you can share your opinions with relative to how many someone with a different more acceptable opinion could solely on the fact your opinions differ.
And if that wasn't the case? If the direct actions of google and all other search engines say prevented you from finding certain viewpoints, would it still be a meritless argument? Just suppose that's the case for me.
Vemasi · 2 points · Posted at 19:20:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is why net neutrality is an issue. Google and YouTube are private entities and can remove things you post form their services, or from showing up in their seearches. However, you have the option to, for instance, go to another forum or, in the end, make your own website that you pay for. No one can stifle your website without some kind of nefarious behavior, or taking legal action if you're breaking the law. Even if you were denied space on a server, you could serve your own content from your own equipment. So long as someone has access to the internet and you can get them there, you can communicate to people via your website.
Google is not responsible for giving you a platform. Only public pressure can force them to leave things up. (For instance, consider if someone was able to upload enough information to fill Google's servers. Should they have to continually buy new servers just for them to be filled up, or could they delete everything that person put on their equipment that they provide to serve their customers?)
However, if net neutrality is abolished, internet providers could start limiting which websites people could access, thus denying you a platform in the public sphere. ISPs are trying to say that they own the platform that is the internet you access, and thus they are within their private rights to limit what reaches their customers, like Google is. However, it was previously ruled that telecoms companies do not have that right. For instance, phone services cannot suddenly block all outgoing calls from, say, Charlottesville, in order to stifle information or coerce residents in some way. Their job is to provide equal access to the service, and in fact they receive federal money to maintain the quality of their infrastructure. Thus, the internet as a whole has sanctity as a public forum.
frogandbanjo · 10 points · Posted at 16:45:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Technically true but wildly misleading. I could just as easily say "it's always been easy to simply just say words, which means it's always been easy to disseminate your own speech."
The world is a noisy train station these days. Being free to talk calmly at a reasonable volume is virtually meaningless compared to the privilege of access to the high-powered station-wide intercoms.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 12:50:31 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
They created and control the platforms being used as well as pre-populating the audience. You cannot co-opt that audience for your own purposes if they deem it a misuse of their platform. And if you want to create your own platform, good luck populating the same audience. You can create a blog - lots have - but attracting an audience will be much more of a time and effort investment than most are willing to make - and never with the success of a pre-populated audience like Reddit/Facebook/Twitter/Etc.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 20:06:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Even so, it's my prerogative to use google or facebook or youtube. Just as easily, I can use a multitude of other sources- other search engines, specific web sites that do or do not conform to my beliefs or ideas, just as I could do the same with written news (ie newspapers, books, etc).
You are allowed to say what you want, but I don't have to read it, and google/facebook/youtube don't have to spread it if they do not want to.
Besides, my understanding of free speech only affecting the governments was due to preventing the persecution of individuals for their opinions and thereby silencing opponents, newspapers, etc. which would inherently be "anti-democracy". Of course, that's just my opinion and I could have missed the point entirely.
BartyBreakerDragon · 2 points · Posted at 20:19:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You can for sure use other sites for this. But would you agree that facebook, google, youtube say are bigger parts of modern life that they were say 4, 5 years ago? I'd say so, but I could be wrong.
Yeah, to my understanding that is valid interperation of freedom of speech. So I ask you: If facebook say, with it's millions of followers, decided in the run up to an election to remove all right wing news sources and such, and show only left wing ones, would that not have similar levels of influence on an election as the direct silencing of political opinions, and thus be similarly damaging to democracy?
Also; How crazy are your cats? :o
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 21:55:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Actually, I've started to use Facebook less, and I don't really use youtube at all. I rather like the NYtimes portion where they look at reactions across the aisle (if we're talking politics) to find different perspectives.
With regards to your question re: facebook, yes that would undoubtedly affect and be damaging to democracy, I think. That being said, the onus isn't on facebook to be an unbiased source of information, that is on the reader to find for themselves. Like using only Breitbart or only the Washington Post would have a similar effect.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 22:01:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Totally forgot the last question lol, my fiance (yea, I know the username is dated) and I have 3 and I converted him to love cats, and I cat-sit and volunteer with the animal shelter to take care of cats. So...pretty crazy lol.
[deleted] · 4 points · Posted at 16:53:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Google is a private company. If they decided tomorrow to only show photos of Democrats looking cool or articles on how Trump is a wonderful man, then they have that right entirely. It's a private company and nobody is forcing you to use it. If you want to make your own search engine and host servers then you can.
BartyBreakerDragon · 15 points · Posted at 17:09:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well, yes they have the right currently. But I think saying 'if you don't like it, move to a different search engine' is just an avoidance of the discussion.
The legality of it doesn't have to change just because a discussion is happening. I just think it's important to consider how freedom of speech works when, to all intents and purposes, there are organisations other than government that can have a monopoly on speech. The idea being to challenge whether the priciple of freedom of expression is still be upheld.
JerikTelorian · 4 points · Posted at 18:04:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It absolutely is, even if your example. The owners and operators of Google are also allowed their own freedom of expression. If you want to limit that, you're limiting their right to free speech.
BartyBreakerDragon · 3 points · Posted at 18:27:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But if the hypothetical in the argument is that services such as google, and youtube are limiting the free speech of others, whose 'right to free speech' wins in that case?
JerikTelorian · 3 points · Posted at 18:31:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Google and Youtube are privately owned businesses. You have no right to say anything on their services - they're privately owned. It would be like arguing that because your neighbor preventing you from putting up signs in your neighbor's front yard, your speech is being limited. It isn't.
Google isn't preventing you from putting up a sign in your yard, or grabbing a soapbox and shouting, or printing pamphlets (though a company could choose not to print them!). They're saying that they won't publish or highlight your stuff, which is their right. You can even privately host your own website and fill it with whatever you want.
They are not ever limiting your speech. They're just not providing you a platform for it, which is their absolute right. You are not owed a YouTube platform.
BartyBreakerDragon · 5 points · Posted at 18:44:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes, I know, that is how the law functions currently.
However suppose this(Taken from another reply on her, so credit to them); Imagine if in some hypothetical future 100% of commication between individuals is done solely over facebook, and facebook alone. Whilst facebook is still privately owned, and existing free-speech laws remain in effect.
Would censorship of anything that doesn't cause direct harm to others, be, or not be a violation of free speech in that case? How would you interpret the law in that case?
JerikTelorian · 1 points · Posted at 18:53:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I see what you're getting at, but I'm not sure the question is useful. At that point you're essentially talking about an autocracy and the question of free speech with respect to a functioning democracy goes out the window.
So I think, in the frame of the question I think that Omni-Facebook is infringing on free speech, but it isn't different from say, Soviet Russia or Nazi Germany or any other autocratic reign.
In an attempt to bring this back to reality, I'd say your point is a good argument for Net Neutrality, ensuring that there is a fair and competitive internet and prevents a company from becoming, in effect, an autocratic government. That said, I also wouldn't generalize this to Google or anything we have now.
BartyBreakerDragon · 3 points · Posted at 18:56:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, it's an extreme example, but I find taking the argument to the extreme is important because you then have to decide on 'at what point does it become fair instead of illegal say'. Like taxes is a great one for doing that.
Would you be in favour, or against having media outlets like google and youtube ect ect being held under high moral obligations to respect the spirit of freedom of speech? I.E. not censoring opinions for political reasons, or plain disagreement and the like. Much like newspapers and such are held to higher standards because of libel and slander and the like.
JerikTelorian · 1 points · Posted at 19:15:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In general, I think no.
So with respect to libel and slander, you need to prove that 1.) they lied knowingly and 2.) with intent to harm. This is again designed with the purpose of respecting free speech: you want a journalist or opinion author to be able to do their work without repercussion from honest mistakes. The law probably errs on the side of letting more dishonest mistakes by, which I think is reasonable. I'd generally prefer we let more criminals go free rather than punish innocent men, a-la John Adams.
The problem I have with establishing "high moral obligations" (I'm assuming legal ones) is that 1.) This essentially requires you to legislate against the first Amendment, which would require an amendment and 2.) who do you trust to establish these standards? In a sense, we already have this system but it's determined in part by dictate of the masses and thus free market forces. You think Google is a shitty search Engine? Go to Bing or Yahoo or DuckDuckGo. You have that power. You do not have the right in any sense to force the New York Times to print your ideas. To do so violates their speech, and it's the same with YouTube or any other media hosting and distribution service.
That said, no, I don't think we can under any circumstance legislate that Google must give a platform to anyone. If we're really worried about Google becoming the only communication system for all humans, we should be looking at antitrust legislation and not worried about trying to determine whose right to speak is prime. If you feel an outlet or service is biased, you are free to take your business elsewhere.
BartyBreakerDragon · 2 points · Posted at 19:39:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Fair enough.
I don't know how you'd introduce such moral obligations in a way that doesn't lead to government over reach, because as you say if they are legal ones ultimately the government has final control over it, and that's not especially healthy in the long term.
So yeah, I don't really have an idea of what to do for any of this. I just that there are potential future problems given how pervasive these media giant are in life nowadays. And it's not a simple issue.
Hell, there's been so many comments presenting argument here I'd never considered that makes it evident.
Thanks for the thoughtful insight all the same.
MJOLNIRdragoon · 1 points · Posted at 19:24:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think it's a difficult hypothetical because why does FB have a literal monopoly on communication? Our laws should be preventing that. I don't know if there has been an equivalent precedent set for the government allowing a monopoly. Utility companies might be the closest thing we have.
Vemasi · 1 points · Posted at 19:27:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It would be a bizarre sci-fi world in which you couldn't get up from your chair and say audible words to another person in the next room.
If a service became so ubiquitous that it was necessary for life and business to function, the government would probably buy it, provide an alternative, or legislate about it and thus have to provide some kind of support for it. Like phone lines, roads, etc. And then, equal rights to unrestricted access to it would be a thing, limited only by physical ability to access (i.e., a downed telephone line is not limiting your access to free speech, but if the police say you cannot use the road to distribute your political pamphlets to book stores, that probably is).
BartyBreakerDragon · 1 points · Posted at 19:43:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes, it would be bizzare, and horrifying. Imagine communicating for the rest of time without being able to read tone. Gives me shivers just thinking about it.
But I propose it because it's the ultimate extension of my concern, so I'm always interested in how peoples attitudes to the current situation apply in the most extreme situation.
I hadn't considering the option of the government buying it out, and I don't know if I'd approve of that solution either. So thank you for the new outcome to think about.
dugant195 · 1 points · Posted at 18:54:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You don't have a right to google.
Manceptional · 0 points · Posted at 20:00:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
you two are literally talking about google's monopoly on speech on a competing platform.
BartyBreakerDragon · 1 points · Posted at 20:23:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The irony is not lost on me.
Okymyo · 5 points · Posted at 19:20:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What about companies like Facebook altering what people see with the intent of changing the way they think or feel?
They can certainly influence people enough to shift their opinions on certain subjects in some ways, akin to subliminal messaging. Is this sort of thing okay? It's still technically their platform, you're not forced to be on it. Like this, they can also influence the way you feel, on demand.
What about if Google just starts shifting what you see? Like, what if when you search for a political candidate they love the first page is full of positive articles and news, but for the candidate they dislike it's the opposite? Google has an 81% market share, so 81% of internet users would be affected. They don't need to make this obvious. They can just make it subtle. Sometimes they could just push propaganda that favours their agenda to the top.
And what if Facebook/Reddit starts changing what people said? It's their platform, they can do anything they want, right?
These companies have massive userbases and massive influence. There's literally nothing anyone can do to dethrone them. Nearly all private communication is handled by private entities, whether you take into account social networks or not, a vast majority of communications is shifting towards privately owned companies. And if they want you shutdown, they can shut you down, and there's nothing you can do about it. Social networks can remove your presence and make criticisms more prevalent, search engines can make you show up less, infrastructure companies (ISPs, datacenters, etc) can deny service. If you're even more evil, DNS providers (hey, Google also has a gigantic market share here) can stop your domain from resolving, and domain registrars can refuse service to you (or register the domains you request for themselves, so you can never get them).
Yes, you "can" start your own ISP or get your own connection to internet backbones, you "can" create your own datacenter, you "can" become your own domain registrar, you "can" make your way into large DNS servers (but still not into Google's, which is largely used), but is that really something to accept? When are enough barriers to your speech considered actual censorship? Or is it never censorship as long as you can still yell things out of your yard?
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 21:24:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Again. The internet is a large place. Google and Facebook are both private companies. They're well liked so they get tons of traffic. In a truly fair and free internet, they can do whatever they want. If they want to monitor search results and change them to some political leaning, that's their prerogative. Users would eventually notice and shift to alternatives that aren't politically charged.
Okymyo · 2 points · Posted at 21:34:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And if Facebook is literally altering the search results to increase depressive tendencies in specific targets, as they've tested doing in the past? Is that also acceptable?
You've also ignored a large portion of my answer where Google and Facebook and other similar companies have a well established monopoly. Google has over 80% of searches, and over 30% of DNS requests.
It's impossible for you to grow any platform if Google and Facebook don't want you to, and actively stop you from doing it.
And you're also largely ignoring the fact that you don't necessarily get to know they're doing it. Are they doing it right now? How can you know? Unless confidential information leaks, you can never know if the results are being altered to fit their agenda.
You've also ignored the concerns about them being able to edit what you see.
Also, since ISPs are privately owned entities too, are they allowed to alter what you see as well?
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 21:37:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's not impossible to grow a competing platform. There are already several out there. The real issue is people are too lazy and comfortable to make change. Don't blame Google. Blame the people who choose Google.
Okymyo · 2 points · Posted at 21:43:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No you can't. If Google doesn't want you to, you can't. They'll make sure you never show up anywhere (for 80%+ of internet users), and will literally make your website unreachable for 30%+ of internet users.
Also, you've essentially ignored 90% of my reply.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 21:45:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You don't need Google to own and operate a search engine. You know this thing at the top of your internet browser? It's called an address bar. You type in internet address and it takes you there without Google.
Okymyo · 2 points · Posted at 21:53:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You know what happens when you type in an address? If it's a domain, it'll request data from your DNS servers, that will tell you to where that domain resolves. You know who owns the largest public DNS servers, that lots of ISPs use? Google does. You know what happens if they decide to block your website? The same thing that happens when you open www.rgj0egjer09gjkre0grekjgprwekgprsogksdpogkspgo.com on your browser.
Olli399 · 2 points · Posted at 17:35:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You say this as if it's not already happening. It is.
BartyBreakerDragon · 2 points · Posted at 17:38:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I know it is, that's why the issue concerns me.
But I find you get better traction with people by involving and asking them, rather than dictating things to them. In my expierence it makes them less like to go defensive and thus you have a better chance of seeing a fun conversation through :D
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:54:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not showing something to someone is not the same as controlling what they see. You arent controlling somebody simply by not doing something they want you to do.
BunnyOppai · 1 points · Posted at 20:06:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm pretty sure Google has had to tweak their search engine a bit on controversial topics, actually. As far I know, it has happened before.
khajiitpussywagon · 1 points · Posted at 18:36:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think they are referring to the fact that you can be banned from Twitter and Facebook or demonatised on YouTube.
The_Last_Fapasaurus · 2 points · Posted at 19:45:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sure, I understand the concern. But if I own a platform, why do you get to dictate the terms by which you use it?
spencerAF · 1 points · Posted at 19:08:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
One good example I can give that we should differentiate between freedom of speech and freedom of expression is the abilities of wealthy entities to lobby.
One of our rights under free speech is the right to vote. If you're wealthy one of your current rights under free speech is to express your opinion with your money. Let's say 10 million people vote a certain way on an issue, currently if one person (or company) with $10,000,000 was able to convince policy makers to act contrary to the vote, directly through their money, than protecting that right to expression means they've been allowed to purchase the speech of 10 million people without those people offering to sell it. Another way to look at this, and one that should make anyone furious, is that by preserving this right to expression we have granted the policy maker the right to sell someone (anyone/everyone's) free speech.
The_Last_Fapasaurus · 1 points · Posted at 19:44:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The elected official is still elected. $10 million is never as powerful as even a single vote so long as there are no votes on the other side. The issue you point out deals with lobbying and oversight rather than pure speech. The First Amendment protects your right to contact your representative in government as well.
[deleted] · 19 points · Posted at 16:17:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That conversation is already being had every day. But invariably freedom of expression cannot be extended to proscribe any kind of non-government action because that in itself would violate the First Amendment.
The primary purpose of the First Amendment was to limit government proscriptions on political speech, which has the tendency to thwart checks on the government such as the right to vote. But respecting companies, including those that host your content, you already have a sufficient check: you can stop using them.
BartyBreakerDragon · 6 points · Posted at 16:35:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well if it's being had, that's good. I just usually see the conversation being 'how does one deal with hate speech in the modern era', which I think it not the crux of the issue.
I'm not hugely versed in constitutional law here, so forgive me if this point is foolish, but isn't the wording on the First Ammendment 'Congress shall make no law... abridging freedom of speech'. It seems to depend on how you define freedom of speech, and if freedom of speech can be redefined to include any insitution that could form a 'monopoly' over speech or expression, it would be legal. The idea that it's freedom from government oppression, comes from the definition of free speech, not the amendment itself.
But again, not versed in constitutional law, or law in general so that's probably bollocks.
I would still say, there's never been a period in history (To my again limited knowledge) where any institution other than government could form a monopoly of control over speech. It's not unfeasible to imagine that happening with these massive social media, or even traditional media outlets.
[deleted] · 6 points · Posted at 17:19:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well first it's impossible for any contemporary institutions to form a monopoly on speech. Google has a lot of power, but it can never stop you from saying what you feel when you're not on the internet. If facebook came out and categorically denounced you for something you said, it still doesn't have the same powers of government that the framers feared: that they can jail or kill you for your speech.
Respecting your interpretation of the First Amendment, you have to remember that the proscription falls on "Congress." It took a Civil War to get us to extend that proscription to state governments. Even with an expansive definition of freedom of speech the proscription has been historically interpreted to fall on governments, not companies.
BartyBreakerDragon · 3 points · Posted at 17:45:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Okay, that's true. I'll admit that corporations can't form an absolute monopoly on speech, but social media is becoming an ever larger and ever more engaged part of our lives, so the areas they have influence are increasing. They may not be able to kill you, and jail you, but they could eventually ostracise you and probably silence you in that aspect of life.
Again, true. But aside from the Catholic Church, has there ever been a period of time where companies have had as much power and influence (Even if it's soft influence) as they do now? So the relative balance of power between state and corporations is smaller now I'd say.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:09:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Then be mindful of what you place in the social media space.
NOT_A_SENTIENT_DILDO · 6 points · Posted at 17:46:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Stop using reddit. Go use a facebook alternative. Never log into twitter again. Delete your account for instagram too while your at it.
That's like saying you can stop going to the grocery store. I get it. I don't have to use walmart. There's target. But on the internet that isn't the case. That's like saying i can stop going to walmart, in a world where the only place to buy anything is walmart.
Go start a facebook competitor. Do it right now. Oh there isn't a competitor with Facebook? MYSPACE you say? Oh sweetheart. They're dead. Good luck getting them restarted.
MJOLNIRdragoon · 2 points · Posted at 19:34:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Maybe I'm just dense today, but I cannot tell which part of that comment is supposed to be satire and which part is supposed to be your opinion.
NOT_A_SENTIENT_DILDO · 1 points · Posted at 19:39:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Good. I tried to write it that way.
DONT_PM_ME_BREASTS · 0 points · Posted at 18:05:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Twitter is a Facebook competitor.
[deleted] · -1 points · Posted at 18:02:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
...Or you could just get a tor browser and an inconspicuous username and not put your photos up. Problem solved.
There are tons of avenues for free speech. However there are not tons of avenues to say whatever you want with no consequences. If you want the latter, there are plenty ways to get to it with very little threat of any consequence.
NOT_A_SENTIENT_DILDO · 1 points · Posted at 19:07:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What kind of consequences are we talking here? Social isolation is perfectly practical and can be expected. But we're at a time where kicking nazis to death is what everyone wants to do. And kicking a nazi to death isn't okay. Because we're better than them.
Did a nazi kill someone or physically hurt them in another way? No? Then laugh at him. Did a nazi kill or physically harm a person in any other way? Yes? Is he in prison? No? Call the cops. Oh he is in prison? Case closed.
We can't punish people for being nazis. Just like I can't punish you for being a marxist. We punish people for hurting each other. It. Does. Not. Matter. How. Much. We. Hate. Their. Ideas. We don't punish them for that. Because we are either worse or better than they are.
Jesus fucking christ. Can't believe I'm forced to defend skinheads because apparently violence over shitty ideas isn't fascism anymore. Which... also apparently isn't fascism anymore. Fucking retarded.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:33:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No. that's just not how it works.
The government can't punish people for being nazis. But private individuals can definitely punish nazis as long as such punishments fall within the bounds of the law. In the eyes of the law, being a nazi is not a protected class and therefore there are no special protections the law extends to that form of political thought.
Can you fire a nazi from a job? Absolutely. Can you ridicule them? Absolutely. Can you refuse to hire them, serve them food, or allow them any other kind of patronage? Abso-fucking-lutely. That's all because the First Amendment is a two-way street. You can be a nazi all you like, but people are also free to condemn and disassociate from you.
"Free Speech" does not mean "comes with no consequences."
NOT_A_SENTIENT_DILDO · 1 points · Posted at 19:50:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What did i say? Social exile? Totally reasonable.
Did i say that? Oh yes i did say that.
Here's the rub. Our supreme court has ruled certain spaces on the internet to be public forums. Simply for their cultural significance. Even if they are maintained and owned by a private company.
It isn't googles place to decide what is and is not acceptable thought. If it does not break their rules they have no right finding other ways to censor you.
If they don't want to hire you for being a nazi. Good. If they they fire you for being a nazi. Good.
If we start killing people because someone called them a nazi: bad.
Why is this difficult for me to say in a way you understand?
Do i have to use five year old talk?
Be friends with nazi not okay. Its bad. But its not okay to hit nazis. We don't hit them. We laugh at them cause they're stupid. We don't give them jobs because they're stupid. We don't throw rocks at them because we're not stupid. And we don't let them throw rocks at other people because we're not stupid.
Holy shit do I need to add more qualifiers to my opinion for you to get it through your dense ass skull? Or are you seriously just deaf to the 80% of my argument where I'm saying we don't want anything to do with nazis? But it isn't okay to PHYSICALLY HARM someone for their opinion. Especially when these days all it takes to be a "literal nazi" is to be a conservative. Double so if you're Christian.
Edit: and fuck off with your protected class bullshit. By protecting one class over another you are explicitly stating one group is better than the other and putting the other on a pedestal to counteract this. It's ridiculous.
If a nazi opened a whites only bar it'd be shut down in a month and you know it.
Free speech is a two way street. But that street never leads to an excuse for violence. If you can't get that then you need a looooonggg look into thr mirror before you start punching people who may be nazis.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 19:52:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Lol I'm not even sure what we're arguing about here anymore but you seem really upset.
But in any case if google decided to censor you, they can definitely do that and you won't have a first amendment argument to stand on, public forum or no. Now are there other laws that might prevent them from such censorship, probably. But you can't use the First Amendment against google.
NOT_A_SENTIENT_DILDO · 0 points · Posted at 20:00:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm not upset. At all. If you think i am I'd suggest it's because you're projecting your own insecurities into the way I treated your misrepresentation of my argument.
I'm arguing that violence isn't okay. That social stigma is more than enough to make 99.9% of nazis shut up and live in a hole. Can you agree with this statement?
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 20:01:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You sure? Because you seem upset and you're ranting and it's clear you don't know wtf you're talking about because you brought up public forums and there are pretty much none on the internet. There are limited public fora but I've yet to see a no holds barred (nearly) everything goes forum for speech operated by a government - cuz that's what a public forum is.
Public forums are public spaces meaning they are operated by the government. Traditionally they are parks, streets corners, speaking halls, but courts haven't said that any particular part of the internet not maintained by a government is a public forum. So I'm not sure where the hell youre getting into this discussion of google and public fora.
You could always name one or cite a case. I won't hold my breath though.
NOT_A_SENTIENT_DILDO · 1 points · Posted at 20:14:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I was ranting because i have fun with it. Because I'm enjoying myself. Not because I'm upset with you.
I apologize if I came across that way. I do tend to cuss a lot, moreso over the internet. I'm not trying to rant, or rave.
I'm genuinely asking if you can agree that physical violence isn't okay. Even if the victim of said violence is a nazi?
I don't want you to tell me it's okay for companies to select who to hire. I agree. It is okay for them to do that. Idk if we're going to reconcile our feelings about freedom of speech on social media. But that's okay.
I don't think it's okay for you or me or anyone to see a person with a swastika tattoo, minding their business, and kill them where they stand. That will never be okay in my mind.
I just want to know if you would be okay with that scenario.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 20:21:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I typically don't condone physical violence for someone's speech. Now would I personally punch a Nazi? Absolutely. But I would also expect to go to jail for that, because it's illegal to punch people. In spite of my personal feelings on Nazis I still think they deserve all the protections that anyone else would be accorded in America and would never condone the state enacting such violence or even permitting it from private actors.
speedchuck · 4 points · Posted at 17:50:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"But respecting companies, including those that host your content, you already have a sufficient check: you can stop using them."
The question is, are we getting to a point in our society where this is the equivalent of:
"You already have a check to keep your freedom of speech from being infringed: Don't speak."
Is twitter a company or a medium of speech? What about facebook and reddit? Is banning speech from Twitter like banning it from a newspaper, or from ALL newspaper print?
That depends on whether Twitter has a monopoly on a type of speech. I don't think they do. But we're close enough to that point to have the discussion.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:06:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
speedchuck · 1 points · Posted at 18:36:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I have no idea what your reply has to do with my post, but you make some interesting points.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:11:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not at all - but if you're not going to think before you speak, it calls in to question the significance of what you're going to say and what your purpose is for saying it.
Say whatever you want, but don't expect to be free from the consequences of stating it.
MJOLNIRdragoon · 1 points · Posted at 19:57:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Even if Twitter is a medium of speech and/or has a monopoly on a type of speech, the First Amendment specifies that Congress shall not abridge your free speech. Also, do newspapers not have the power to abstain from prints things they don't want to print?
Well, no private company or person owns the air out in public, so that's not going to be the case.
frogandbanjo · -3 points · Posted at 16:46:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is categorically untrue. If it were true, whistleblower protections would be unconstitutional.
[deleted] · 6 points · Posted at 17:09:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No.
Whistleblower actions are targeted at preventing retaliation for disclosing bad acts. A restriction on retaliation is generally content-neutral, the government isn't suppressing any viewpoint it's restricting the right to fire someone for disclosing or complaining about a bad act. No court has ever extended 1st amendment rights to companies or the government in their decisions to hide information about bad or illegal acts. The 1st AM just simply isn't implicated.
Contrast that with what the commenter said. Ostensibly he is saying that if a person, take the guy from Google who got fired, voiced an opinion and was fired, first amendment rights should extend to google to prohibit them from the firing. THAT is likely a 1st amendment violation. The gov can't preference the speech of employees over employers.
frogandbanjo · 0 points · Posted at 19:29:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is what the comment I replied to said:
Firing an employee for disclosing bad acts is... wait for it... an action.
No shit. That's literally exactly what I'm saying: that the commenter I replied to is wrong, because the 1st Amendment does not "proscribe any kind of non-government action."
What the fuck do you think these people are talking about when they say "freedom of speech [which they're conflating with the 1st Amendment] doesn't mean freedom from consequences?"
They're very clearly saying "bitch you better watch what you say because if you don't, your private company might decide to fire your ass."
I just pointed out a clear example of where a citizen can say something and their private company cannot fire them in retaliation - an exception to their view of how far the 1st Amendment extends and how it operates.
That is 100% relevant to this discussion. It proves that the 1st Amendment does not require absolute slavish obedience to the notion that protecting a citizen from the consequences of their speech is impossible because it would violate the rights of, say, the company that wants to fire them.
It is trivially, trivially easy for a company firing a whistleblower to reframe their action - not lie via pretext, mind, but simply reframe the issue to one of ideals and beliefs - as engaging in speech that ought to be protected by the 1st Amendment. They've got lots of loose precedent to cite when religion comes into play, incidentally. The courts choose to claim that that's all bullshit because it's convenient for them to do so. What happens when another company starts bitching about "religion" to fuck with health insurance? Well then, the analysis magically changes, doesn't it?
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:49:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A citizen relying on whistleblower protections against a private company can't invoke their 1st amendment rights because they're not at issue, so it's still not relevant. The 1st only applies to government actors, if we're talking private employers, they aren't government actors.
Your original statement was that I was categorically wrong that the 1st amendment proscriptions could be placed on employers as evidenced by whistleblower protections. But whistleblower protections in the context of private companies simply don't involve a 1st amendment analysis when there are no state actors present.
Whistleblower protections aren't even meant to defend speech rights, they're meant to cause companies to behave better and avoid firing and discrediting people who reveal misdeeds.
DMCDawg · 7 points · Posted at 17:21:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The government is still the only entity with ABSOLUTE power over speech. If Twitter deletes my account over what I've said, I can go to a competitor, I could start my own version of Twitter, I could print a thousand leaflets and distribute them to my neighbors. I could do anything else to get my message out there, and Twitter would be powerless to stop me. If the a government doesn't like my speech, I simply can't say it. They can seize my property, throw me in jail, or even execute me with complete impunity.
Isord · 3 points · Posted at 18:28:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How is it any different than news papers? Should a news paper be required to publish every letter sent to it?
BartyBreakerDragon · 3 points · Posted at 18:50:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Maybe. I don't know.
But it's funny you bring up newspapers, because aren't newspapers held to a higher standard than most private institutions (Through slander and libel laws) precisely because of the potential influence they can have by printing misinformation?
Isord · 3 points · Posted at 18:56:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Slander and libel can apply to anybody, not just newspapers. They are not held to any specific standard in that regard. For awhile TV news was required to give equal air time to opposing political candidates and the fairness doctrine required that things be presented in a "balanced" manner, which was up to the interpretation of the FCC.
Neither rule applies anymore.
Edit: Actually I'm not sure if the equal air time rule still applies, but the Fairness Doctrine was dropped.
MJOLNIRdragoon · 1 points · Posted at 20:03:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
IIRC (IANAL), it's just that slander and libel required damage to be done, which is arguably easier for a newspaper to do since a lot of people presumably read it, whereas any Joe Blow on the street spewing lies isn't going to be taken seriously by passersby. However someone like Elon Musk or Bill Gates have huge followings, so they arguably could cause damages by telling their followers something.
supraman2turbo · 7 points · Posted at 16:30:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There isnt much need of a conversation. The 1st Amendment is the 1st Amendment and needs no changes. Private companies have the right to do what they want with their product, if you are using their product in a means they disagree with they have every right to not let you use their product. And in a capitalist free market there is suddenly a supply and demand gap and it opens the door for new companies to come along and fill that void.
A current example is Patreon starting to kick people off their platform for speech. A company Hatreon (dumb name I know) was created to fill the void.
1998_2009_2016 · 4 points · Posted at 18:48:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is just patently untrue.
There are many restrictions and laws about what you can and cannot do with your product, especially if your product is a service to the general public.
Some of the more prominent would be anti-discrimination laws. Other controversies would be things like right-to-repair or net neutrality. Let's not even talk 'doing what you want with your product' if your product is housing or medical care!
The free market is obviously not a cure-all. These things require intelligent policy-making.
thecptawesome · 2 points · Posted at 18:57:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well, maybe if you stopped interfering with it, it would cure better.
For example, anti-discrimination laws. The government is telling me I have to serve certain people at my private restaurant (hypothetical, I don't own a restaurant). That's a blatant disregard for my individual liberties. If I don't want to serve certain people, I don't have to. People will stop coming to my restaurant and I'll go out of business or people will keep coming and I won't. But you don't get to come up with an idea in your head of how the world should be and force me into that vision.
Second, right-to-repair. I'm not an expert on it, but whatever arrangement you voluntarily made with the company should stand. If you leased a phone from them in an arrangement where you don't own it, they get to tell you what you can do with it. If you own the product, the company can take a hike.
Im_Not_Really_Here_ · 1 points · Posted at 19:11:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, good thing the free market stepped in and stopped slavery before it caused the deadliest war in American history or something.
1998_2009_2016 · 1 points · Posted at 19:22:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Maybe some people will come and sit in your restaurant and they won't leave, or they'll sit in the wrong section of your bus where you don't want them, and you'll want the government to come defend your property rights or sanction your violence, and people will wonder why their tax money is going to defend your practices, there might be riots in the streets, and we will have civil rights reform.
It wouldn't need to be law if it wasn't contentious, and it wouldn't need to be law if there was a nice free market alternative so what's the big deal anyway. Fact is that we have history, people were being systematically discriminated against and they weren't gonna sit there and not be let into restaurants despite your absolute right to your property. So there was a compromise, erosion of property rights in favor of anti-discrimination rights.
I don't, of course. But equally so you don't get to force your idea that property rights/'individual liberties' as you conceive them are the end-all-be-all onto everyone else, nor the idea that so long as something makes money in a 'free' market it is moral.
The issues here basically deal with monopolies and industry-level regulation. You have something that the consumers really want, but that would cost all the producers in the industry a lot of money in a clear race to the bottom. Even without explicit coordination the industry will collude to keep prices high or equivalently restrict features. So classic economics, you want to trust-bust such that the consumers get the best possible product without rents going to the producing cartel ... unless of course you believe in voluntary agreements above all etc.
thecptawesome · 0 points · Posted at 19:39:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
They shouldn't wonder. It's the protection of my private property, a good function of the police, no?
That's a nice way of saying we'll force people to act a certain way because we like it that way
There's nice free market alternative for wedding cakes, but that seems to be an issue currently, doesn't it?
Well, it's hard to view me as "forcing" my ideas on others when I'm literally advocating that everyone be free to make their own choices. And private property rights are pretty much the foundation of society, so there's that too.
In response to your last paragraph, industry-level regulation and trust-busting is government intervention, so no not in favor.
In sum, you're willing to throw away private property rights because it makes you feel better to force people to be "more inclusive and non-discriminatory."
It's not even that I disagree with those social values, but your willingness to force your values on others is reprehensible.
Reutermo · 2 points · Posted at 17:27:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
.... are you a time-traveling knight?
BartyBreakerDragon · 5 points · Posted at 17:33:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
.....
........
DEUS VULT!
AtomicGuru · 2 points · Posted at 17:55:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Gets boring guarding the Grail forever, I suppose.
tableman · 2 points · Posted at 17:48:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
>part of the reason why freedom of expression only affects the government is because only the government was really in a position to have a monopoly on power over speech.
The entire constitution only effects the government. The bill of rights is simply a document that states rights that American citizens have. The government has to consult the document before they impose laws to make sure they don't infringe on those rights.
The bill of rights is a list of rules that the US government has to follow and no one else.
BartyBreakerDragon · 1 points · Posted at 18:39:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well freedom of speech/expression has similar definitions and applications within other nations. And as I've highlighted in another comment, the First Amendment doesn't define Freedom of Speech, and only says congress can't restrict it. It doesn't say explicitly that congress can't pass laws to ensure it is being upheld. (Again a disclaimer, I'm not a constitional lawyer, and I know that's probably simplistic, so apologies if I have it wrong, and don't take me for an expert)
tableman · 1 points · Posted at 18:54:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Most other nations don't have free speech.
The point of the first amendment it to restrict the government from preventing you from speaking.
In Europe government restrict speech whenever they want.
BartyBreakerDragon · 1 points · Posted at 19:06:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I agree, many don't even in the first world, and it's awful.
Wouldn't a natural extrapolation of that be though that the government has a duty to uphold freedom of speech where possible?
tableman · 1 points · Posted at 19:25:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Where did this duty come from?
BartyBreakerDragon · 1 points · Posted at 19:41:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
An extension of upholding the spirit of the first ammendment, if one takes that spirit as being 'freedom of speech for all' not just 'freedom of speech for all from the government'.
It's a weaker argument than I thought it was when I first made it however.
tableman · 1 points · Posted at 00:37:44 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
>An extension of upholding the spirit of the first ammendment,
The spirit of the first amendment is restricting the government from violating your rights. That's the entire point of the bill of rights.
BartyBreakerDragon · 1 points · Posted at 09:42:25 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well the rights given to you are inalienable right? Shouldn't that extend beyond just the government if sources other than the government threaten them?
tableman · 1 points · Posted at 11:32:36 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Are you refering to liberals who attack authors that want to speak at college campuses?
a_fucken_alien · 2 points · Posted at 17:49:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well said. This is the heart of the issue and the true aspect that the majority don't seem to understand. Especially in countries where corporations, media, and government are so in bed with each other. To describe free speech as simply a contract between an individual and their government suggests extreme ignorance in how important true free speech is to a functioning society.
TransitJohn · 1 points · Posted at 18:27:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Blame corporate personhood, and the fact that those companies you mentioned have their own rights to represent themselves how they want, and that includes firing employees who express views they don't want associated with them.
thecptawesome · 1 points · Posted at 19:08:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What? They are private businesses, and the people who own them can do with them whatever they want so long as they don't interfere with the rights of others. You do not have a right to use Facebook however you want.
TransitJohn · 1 points · Posted at 19:53:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm pretty sure you think I said the opposite of what I said.
thecptawesome · 1 points · Posted at 19:58:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That... might be very possible. My apologies.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:52:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No it can't. If Facebook removes what you said, you have a million other ways to spread your message. You would be infringing on the rights of whoever owns facebook of the state were to force facebook to publish your message.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:08:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And just about every one of those has a Terms of Use agreement that you have to abide by in exchange for usage of their service. They created it, they marketed it, they curate it - they have total control over that entity, not you.
They're private services - you have no rights to walk into a physical establishment and say/do whatever you want. The same goes for those services - you elected to participate and you agreed that they have full control over their sandbox. If you dislike that, you're welcome to not use them. The same goes for subreddits. If you don't like the limitations on one sub, go to another or create your own.
The other reason that this falls apart is the core motivator: visibility. It is not a right - assumed or expressed - to be able to co-opt popular spaces or services just to express yourself. If you're using a services or page that you did not create, you have no control over how it is moderated.
BartyBreakerDragon · 1 points · Posted at 19:31:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Okay, I concede all that, given that is the current legality of the situation.
So hypothetical: Do you think there is ever a proportion of total human commications that platforms like facebook could have occur on them, that an argument could be made that they should be treated like public forums?
I know that is not the case currently, but do you think that if these sites had such a high level of communications occur on them ,that it should become the case?
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 22:50:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not unless they're created and maintained by the government. Outside of that, only if they're independently hosted, and even then, they're subject to the whims of the overseer.
So, you don't support net neutrality? You're suggesting that if something becomes popular enough, that it should be seized from the creator.
BartyBreakerDragon · 1 points · Posted at 23:24:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't know my opinion on net neutrality, I've not read enough into it to feel like I can adequately form one.
I'm not advocating for that idea, I'm more curious as to your opinion on it. My gut tells me, despite supposing that argument to you, that no, that should not be the case.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 03:08:30 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
The online venues that people have created, monetized, and promoted may be in widespread use - but that is due to the work that went into making them "the" place to be seen and heard.
While it may be frustrating to not have free reign over those popular spaces, it's perfectly acceptable. Attempting to dictate how those private entities should operate is not a winning proposal. If you want to use them, you must use them in the way in which those entities dictate they are to be used. If that is distasteful, then you must seek out another alternative.
The problem with alternatives is - they don't have the visibility or the audience.
BartyBreakerDragon · 1 points · Posted at 09:47:23 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
So I had this discussion with someone else on the thread, and I'm curious as to what you think of it:
Is the act of forcing someone away from a large audience to a small audience a lesser act of censorship? If instead of speaking to a crowd of millions, you are only allowed to speak to a crowd of dozens say.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 12:46:29 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
The premise is a little off - If you're using a non-US governmental platform for expression of an idea ("speech") and that platform exercises it's right to silence that expression for whatever reason, then this indirectly forces the communicator of that idea to seek out a new platform. That platform will likely have a smaller audience - particularly if it is new, niche, or otherwise not as popular as the first platform. (ex: Facebook suspends/bans your account, so you seek out a WordPress blog or something more free-form.)
That popular platform has invested time and resources to encourage and cultivate activity and connectivity between users. Basically, if you are visible on a high-activity platform, it's due to the processes that the platform creators have implemented to develop that visibility and connectivity. When that platform becomes a daily-use activity, it is successful. When you express controversial opinions using that platform, you are capitalizing on the work of someone else to use their platform in a way that they may or may not have intended or approved of. And again, if it's not under the control of a US-government entity, they are within their rights to moderate as they deem necessary or appropriate to their vision for their platform.
So - you're forced to seek out another platform. Yes, that platform may be less restrictive, but it also means that you're on your own when it comes to attracting an audience. You have to get the word out, you have to compel people to intentionally visit your space in that platform, you have to provide content that people will willfully and intentionally seek out and consume. The reason that this is an issue is that people are inherently lazy online - they want to do as little as possible for the most reward.
Large platforms allow communicators to express an idea in drive-by fashion - they just throw it out there and they have a built in audience by way of the platform and it's mechanics (followers, friends, subscribers, etc.) These are people who have - for whatever reason - agreed to a connection with you based on one particular premise. When you exploit that connection for an unrelated purpose (communication of controversial or unpopular opinions), you create a problem. Those people who disagree with your idea can separate themselves from you, or they can become combative with you (depends on both parties). Sure, you can also develop a community of support around that idea, and that causes a change to your followers, friends, subscribers as well.
So, by nature, you've already created a situation where your audience self-filters based on what they like or don't like. Reddit is a good example - no matter how many niche political subs pop up, or what ideas they express repeatedly, I will never see them unless I seek them out purposefully. I have customized my user experience to ignore or avoid all of those kinds of posts and communities because I choose to. And there's nothing that a passionate, activist user can do to force me to listen to their idea. That's a choice and it's one I should not be prevented from making and fulfilling. The same goes for protesters who fill public streets on a whim. I may not care about their cause, I may fully support their cause - but their cause is irrelevant to me if I'm attempting to go about my life in my chosen way and they are preventing me from doing so because they consider their idea more important than my personal freedoms. That's not okay.
And that's the point - you cannot force anyone to listen to your opinion if they choose not to. You can express it, and venues can dictate where and when that's okay with them, but only the US government and it's systems can grant you full permission to express yourself in a way that cannot be silenced. This means that, if your venue for expression creates a hazard for yourself and others, the government can step in and take corrective action. (Such as blocking highways for visibility.)
And even if you find yourself before a crowd of millions - there is nothing preventing each individual from choosing whether to ignore you or not. You have no ability to force anyone to pay attention to you. The same goes for online - you cannot force someone to endure something that they have no interest in. You also cannot decry a private platform for making a decision regarding your ability to express that opinion on their platform.
Freedom of speech only prevents the government from punishing a citizen for expressing an idea. It does not guarantee anyone the ability to say what they want, where they want, without consequence (last part is broad and contains exceptions.) You can say what you want...you just can't force anyone to listen, and you certainly can't force them to agree with you.
mifbifgiggle · 1 points · Posted at 19:12:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Except Twitter doesn't censor anything unless it goes against their terms of service. You can voice any opinion you want. If that changes we might have a problem but for now it's working just fine.
Weed_O_Whirler · 1 points · Posted at 19:15:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
To add onto this: the first amendment doesn't define what "free speech" is. A company/platform could support free speech on their platform, which is valid. I've seen too many times where someone says "no you idiot, freedom of speech just means that the government can't stop you from saying things." No, freedom of speech is a concept that exists outside of the first amendment and can be supported outside of that context.
goldgibbon · 1 points · Posted at 19:21:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Deep down, it doesn't matter WHY we have the laws that we do. What I care about is whether or not the laws we have are appropriate for upholding justice.
To me, not allowing the government to censor speech makes sense whereas not allowing private companies to censor speech on their own products does not.
To say that there needs to be a conversation is possibly misleading because there actually is lots of conversation about this topic already. Maybe instead you should say there needs to be MORE conversation?
BartyBreakerDragon · 1 points · Posted at 19:50:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
1) Doesn't it? I would have thought laws are in place for a reason, let's say in general to protect civil liberties. I would have thought it's important to be able to look at a law, and why the law was first go in place and go 'yes, it is good this law is in place', rather than just assuming it is implace for justice. Effectively, just being a skeptic.
2). Well we are in agreement there as things currently stand. My worry is that it gets more blurry the larger influence the private interest has in the world. Ultimately, if a corporation had more power than the government, wouldn't we want it to be regulated for our sake like government is?
3) Yeah, probably. But I usually don't see the conversation being that thought out. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong places though? It's pretty likely I am.
bigfinnrider · 1 points · Posted at 19:29:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In the past control of printing presses, radio networks, and TV news was a far more limiting means of controlling speech. There are actually more competing venues than ever.
Which is how nutjobs like Alex Jones can persist so well.
xnodesirex · 1 points · Posted at 19:32:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
An addendum on that is that digital speech can be changed at will (see the Spez incident). While that was (relatively) minor, what's to prevent Reddit or Facebook from changing all your posts to say you're a serial killer? There's nothing in the TOS (that I'm aware of) that makes your digital footprint uneditable by its owners (FB/Google/Reddit/etc.)
Likewise, what's to prevent the FBI/NSA/CIA (or the Chinese, Russian, Israeli, or Canadian version) to change your posts, or make those photos you deleted suddenly visible?
That is beyond scary.
Freedom of speech should work in all environments, but what happens when your speech gets changed?
BartyBreakerDragon · 2 points · Posted at 20:04:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Another point I hadn't considered, thank you for bringing it up. Kinda horrifying.
lcfparty15 · 1 points · Posted at 19:36:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
All of this presumes some kind of value in getting online and explaining, IDK, why black people aren't oppressed or why women actually are inferior to men or some such bullshit. There's no value in any of that.
I'm not trying to be dense, and I get what you're saying. But I think what feeds this argument is this line of thinking like "who says you have a right to be offended just because I got on here and said something I'd get shitcanned for saying at work."
The same reason you'd get shitcanned at work still applies here.
This is a hard point to articulate, or I'm finding it to be at the moment. But there's an air among people who claim that forums shouldn't moderate and that the internet should be fair game, on whatever private service, for any kind of speech only leads to maladjusted people being derisive and churlish.
What I'm saying is, there's a perfectly clear reason to have our current 1st amendment protection: to protect us from sedition laws, and to keep an essentially all-powerful body from punishing our bodies over our speech (outside of some exceptions, which is important to note).
There's no similar thing going on in online forums. You can see why a nation's people should be able to speak out against the government and the good that can do...think of the Declaration and the bit about dissolving an unjust government, etc.
Your physical body is not under any kind of jeopardy as per the whims of the "all powerful" Reddit admins. And where is the justice in having people say racist or sexist shit online? That's what I can't get my head past. So many people ardently defend other people's supposed right to be assholes online. There's no good being done there. What is the point of fighting for someone's right to be an asshole?
The specific arguments I've seen to this are just nonsense. It's people playing fast and loose with objectivity/subjectivity, moving goal posts, and so on.
My main point here is that the principles behind many of these laws and concepts assume that people are working toward some positive good and protect against infringement on that pursuit by a powerful government that may be opposed to doing good.
Most internet free speech warriors are doing something like the opposite. And if you're impressed with an "but who's to say what's good or bad speech" argument, then, like whoa, man, whoa, right back at you, but I'm not impressed by that kind of logic. It's fairly easy to determine.
BartyBreakerDragon · 1 points · Posted at 20:12:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well it's more than just that right. People should have the right to be offensive, because it's subjective as to what someone will be offended by. It's the same with hate speech and racism, what it constitutes is almost purely subjective compared to physical abuse. So I don't see why that should be censored, because the natural extension of that kind of censorship is gradually more and more and more opposing ideas to whomever is defining 'hate' gets censored.
I am of the opinion that freedom of speech is ultimately about the free exchange of ideas, and that speech should be as free as possible to abet that. If one is constantly worried about offending someone else, eventually you can't say anything of meaning. And that's just dull.
People should have the right to be an arsehole, because sometimes you need to be an arsehole to get an idea heard. And again, because what defines being an arsehole is subjective. There will still be societal norms that mean most people will be nice and cordial, but we shouldn't stop peoples rights to be controversial.
You'll probably have a different idea on that, and I don't think I've be as succinct as I could be. Just suppose say, saying 'I like coke, not pepsi' was a controversial opinion. Would you be in favour of censoring that opinion? It's literally just an opinion, it isn't doing harm, it might offend you, but that's not legal basis for censorship.
lcfparty15 · 1 points · Posted at 02:34:45 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I completely disagree with everything you say in the first paragraph. That's exactly what I'm arguing against. It's nihilism, not some kind of new libertarian view of the world. There's a pretty clear consensus on what is or is not considered decent in the realm of the general discourse. The internet even affords the right to go outside of that discourse and have a different space to engage freely with whatever vile stuff a person has to say.
But Reddit and Social Media are business who don't want to offer that particular service for an obvious reason. The negative press is not helpful to their business model. That's the entire long and short of it.
So, of course it is subjective to consider the degree of offense a person takes. It's also subjective to have laws, some medical designations, politics, arts, culture, anything that isn't a direct representation of the physical world, like a specimen.
A person can't be objective in the way that people who don't quite understand the whole subjective/objective concept seem to think. There is no cold blooded objective person. Because a person has self-interest, it isn't objective even in the sense that the term usually implies. But applying it to the behavior of a person is really pointless because a person making a choice is the crux of what "subjective" means, so any choice that we make is subjective. All of them, in a sense. Of course we largely agree what "I made an objective decision" means but it's still a subjective, abstract concept that needs interpretation to understand. "I made the more practical choice."
I don't see this "being an asshole to get an idea heard" thing you speak of. That notion gets pushed all the time but doesn't occur in objective reality. Instead, people say things they know will offend people in order to offend people. That behavior in and of itself is why societies have constructed rules to make subjective opinion codified into objective reality, sort of.
And so, no, some one trying to offend me to try to offend me is an irritation I would prefer Reddit not encourage. If they can stop people from doing it, great. I've been moderated for crossing lines in arguments before and I could always accept that what I'd said crossed a line that there was no good reason to cross.
BartyBreakerDragon · 1 points · Posted at 09:40:57 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
But what about the efforts of social media to silence more conservative views points because they are deemed controversial? Not because they are being outright arseholes, but because they have opinions that run against the popular narrative and thus cause distress.
I probably should have clarified; I didn't mean be an arsehole just for the sake of being an arsehole right. Defending someones rights to call you say, 'A catholic whore' is not why I want to defend it (I believe it still should be legal to do so, but as an extension of the rest of it). If say, I wanted to voice the opinion 'Racism doesn't exist in modern society', a lot of people would probably be very outraged, would think I'm being hateful or some such. But if I can defend my viewpoint on that position in a rational manner, why shouldn't I be able to voice it, even if it runs against the grain of common opinion and what is deemed cordial?
It's less about 'I should be able to voice my opinions in a way that crosses the line' and more 'I should be able to voice my opinion even when that opinion crosses the line'.
I think... Maybe people are misusing the word objective, I don't know. But I think the difference between the offence and other forms of 'personal injury' is that there's nothing empirical about the harm done. Whilst laws are to some extent subjective, within a court of law, one relies of empirical proof of evidence. This is true for existing limitations on speech, slander and libel, one has to prove damages. What, if it deals with the realm of emotional distress, can be empirical here?
And how would you draw the line here? What stops the line encroaching ever inwards? Or in theory stops the government, once these laws are in place, defining the policies of there political enemies from falling on the wrong side of the line?
And I agree with you, there are societal norms that mean most of the time people don't go around just saying awful things for the sake of them being awful. But I don't think we need to legally enshrine those norms.
Manceptional · 1 points · Posted at 19:52:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't buy into the "we are living in such unique times!" argument. When one or two rich people owned all the printing presses wasn't that pretty similar?
One of the reasons I believe that google/FB/Twitter are so reluctant to monitor or enforce a lot of their rules is they don't want to give up their standing as "the marketplace of ideas". In fact, there is probably more competition for that role than ever before.
BartyBreakerDragon · 1 points · Posted at 20:03:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When one or two people own the printing presses, they had a monopoly on printed ideas, yes. But it is to what extent those printed ideas were shared amongst the population that is the distinction here.
I may have my time periods wrong, but I think most of the nation was illterate when the printing press was first a thing, so it was somewhat more limited just by that.
Manceptional · 1 points · Posted at 20:12:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Okay, but you can use the same logic for the news networks. NBC news etc. It's a different medium, but the story is pretty similar. If anything, the conversation platforms have more competition now: Google, FB, Twitter, (whatever they have in China, Reddit....
Also, has there been anything in history easier for the spread of ideas than email sharing?
BartyBreakerDragon · 1 points · Posted at 20:25:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's similar for information, but not necessarily exchange of ideas. I don't think news networks had the same kind of discussion space that facebook or reddit does say. Or the freedom to upload your own content like youtube. Not do I think they were as pervasive to life, so I don't think they are direct parallels but I may be wrong.
Manceptional · 1 points · Posted at 20:28:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Of course not. Never going to be exact. New technologies will always create differences, but we currently have as much, or more competition in terms of hosting and spreading speech/conversations/ideas than possibly ever before.
BartyBreakerDragon · 1 points · Posted at 20:31:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So what if say, all of those sources of competition wound up sharing either the same ownership, or the same operating ideologies? And thus depriving you of meaningful choice?
How do you think that would affect the argument that 'you can go to another platform'?
Manceptional · 1 points · Posted at 20:45:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
so if there was a "real monopoly" on internet conversations? I would want it be handled the same way as any other "crucial services" monopoly was. The reason we have choice of cell providers today is because we broke up a telecom monopoly. So if google bought twitter and FB bought reddit, and google and FB started colluding as to their Terms of Service in a way that limited certain types of speech, I would probably have a problem. Still not entirely sure though, because that is basically exactly what the news networks were at the beginning. If they did that, they'd be opening up the door to an upstart competitor or another medium.
Thedarkestspoon · 1 points · Posted at 19:59:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Hey, im not an academic or massive history buff or anything but i like reading and have always wanted to find out about the crusades. You sound like someone who could recommend me a good book to get started, any suggestions? If its fictional and good as well as being informative that'd be good but non-fiction is fine also. I mostly read scifi and jack reacher so nothing too heavy i guess or i will probably bounce off. As an example of my poor ability to concentrate on lengthy texts, i got about 4 lines in to your comment and got distracted by the idea of writing this reply! Suggestions would be much appreciated, thank you!
BartyBreakerDragon · 1 points · Posted at 20:22:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well I didn't do that much crusades stuff in all honestly, only a 6th form course of it. So I can only really cover bits of the first crusade, and I've no idea what to recommend on it xD
For dry academic literature on the Crusades, Steven Runcimans history of the crusades is the best thing I know of. But again, it's dry academic literature.
And....that's about it. Aside from saying try youtube for some summaries, you might get lucky. Sorry I can't be more help.
Jacobmc1 · 1 points · Posted at 20:07:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When you sign up for a social media platform, you explicitly agree to their terms of service. If you do not agree with how the company will treat your speech, you are under no obligation to use that platform.
What level of reassessment is necessary?
BartyBreakerDragon · 1 points · Posted at 20:15:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well what if these sorts of platforms grow to the point where there is in fact a societal obligation to use them?
Would that not be grounds for reassassment?
Jacobmc1 · 1 points · Posted at 20:52:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What is the nature of this societal obligation?
The specific nature of this obligation would likely have some impact on how best to approach this matter.
sigmaecho · 1 points · Posted at 20:14:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The first amendment means that Nazis can start their own website, it does not mean that anyone else has to host them on theirs or give them a platform. You don't see the New York Times giving columns to the KKK for the sake of freedom of the press. Web site operators have a moral obligation to ban and silence hate speech and hate groups. Online communities are a reflection of the rules and behavior their admins allow or punish - this is obvious to anyone who has spent any significant amount of time with a few online communities.
Even implicit in your comment is the idea that the public has some kind of right or entitlement to use and access social media platforms, just because they've become a big deal, which is nonsense. You have the right to speak, not a right to a louder microphone. The people who created the sites and services own them and they have the right to allow or disallow anyone or anything they want on them. Don't like it? Start your own damn website. Censorship is something the government does to the people. When it happens on private platforms, between private citizens, it's merely exercising your rights. You don't have the right to place your political signs in someone else's yard, they have the right to stop you.
The word 'censorship' has lost its meaning in the modern age. We need a different word to distinguish between censorship that violates your rights and "censorship" that is merely one person exercising their right to moderate what is on their property.
The public has taken privately owned and operated web services for granted like spoiled children, and that is the face of the rampant populism we are currently embroiled in. Where the racists, bigots and extremists have finally achieved what they always wanted - their radical rhetoric becoming accepted in the mainstream. They even have the white house now. And a large part of that is the internet's abuse and distortion of the concept of free speech.
beepbloopbloop · 748 points · Posted at 15:46:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If your only defense of your speech is that it's illegal to stop you, you probably don't have a very good argument.
[deleted] · 440 points · Posted at 16:50:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In all fairness, the 1st amendment is there to protect unpopular speech. It's not there to protect popular speech, which typically doesn't need protection. The 1st amendment is so valuable because it allows these people to have opinions that 99% of people would have an issue with.
disfordog · 82 points · Posted at 17:34:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
On the other hand, I would say it is even more so to protect speech that is unwanted by the government. If you think of the 1984 example, the government is making a given idea appear unpopular by not allowing anyone to voice it. It doesn't matter how popular an unwanted idea is if no one can share the idea or know that anyone else agrees with them.
NFLinPDX · 21 points · Posted at 18:00:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It was designed to protect speakers from legal punishment. Police are only involved to protect, say the KKK, from the masses because they are there to keep the peace and prevent a riot, not to make sure the bigots get to spew their propaganda.
(Agreeing with you)
disfordog · 1 points · Posted at 23:54:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's a really good distinction. Police at rallies are protecting the peace, not protecting the participants. Who they are protecting from what could really go either way.
BigbooTho · -28 points · Posted at 18:19:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The kkk by definition cannot peacefully assemble. They exist to assault the persons and rights of minorities. Goes triple when they come armed to their "peaceful" assemblies. You think cops would protect an isis rally in America?
svengalus · 19 points · Posted at 19:01:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This goes for anyone I disagree with as well. Their existance is a violent assault on my freedoms.
BigbooTho · -14 points · Posted at 19:17:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
These aren't my words. The goal of the group is to assert a subhuman status to a group of... humans. That goes past disagreement.
svengalus · 5 points · Posted at 19:20:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I totally agree. People with those beliefs are sub-human.
NFLinPDX · 7 points · Posted at 20:13:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If cops don't protect a non-violent group of ISIS sympathizers from an angry mob while they protest whatever bullshit they interpreted from the deepest corners of their holy book, then the police aren't doing their job. You don't have to support the idea but the freedom of speech is not limited to benign statements. Cops looking the other way when a rock comes flying into the face of the speaker is understandable, but still a failure to protect.
Now, consider if the group was trying to whip the listeners into some kind of violent action, then they are breaking laws for inciting violence or something along those lines (IANAL) but their right to say things are still protected by the first amendment even if the police themselves disagree.
BigbooTho · -6 points · Posted at 20:20:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
We aren't talking about freedom of speech though when it comes to the kkk assembling. We are talking about right to peaceful assembly. If the purpose of the speech or idea you have the freedom to think (not act on) is an inherently violent one, how does one peacefully assemble? You're inciting violence by the definition of your assembly. It's not a peaceful assembly from the start.
Say your shitty violent things. Think your shitty violent things. But doing it in a crowd of a thousand armed and like minded individuals is no assembly. It's an army.
NFLinPDX · 2 points · Posted at 21:07:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you are talking about the crowd being armed, then we aren't talking about the same thing and in your example, it becomes a pre-firefight rally. It's like a football team's pregame hype speech but with guns and killing.
I don't think we are disagreeing, but we aren't talking about the same kind of gathering
BigbooTho · 1 points · Posted at 21:14:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My reference to being armed for their assembly was specifically for the nazi rally that just took place in Virginia. That is, as I said in my original reply, not even something defensible in my opinion.
NFLinPDX · 1 points · Posted at 21:19:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Shit, those bigoted fucks were armed during that rally? I don't know law well enough to say if the 1st amendment and the 2nd can have that kind of overlap when the topic is hateful. Things get real blurry and I would be inclined to call in the Guard and have them at the ready in case any rally attendees think want to get trigger-happy.
A hate speech to a bunch of armed people is about as tense a situation as I can imagine without bullets actually flying.
BigbooTho · 1 points · Posted at 21:23:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You can find live streams of the nazis macing, tear gassing, bearing firearms, clubs. It was a militia.
JimmyDeSanta420 · 6 points · Posted at 20:28:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Considering just how much communication is happening through various forms of social media now, you could easily swap "the government" in your statement with Google/Facebook/Twitter/YouTube/Tumblr/Reddit and it still makes sense.
While they have the right to remove whatever they want from their websites, that doesn't mean that hiding anything that doesn't agree with their Silicone Valley/SF Bay Area sensibilities is a good idea. Just because it's not the government performing the censorship doesn't mean it's not censorship.
disfordog · 1 points · Posted at 00:00:19 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
True. It really means that we have to be intelligent users of social media and interact with it as a corporation with their own interests in mind, even though the face we see is of our friends and acquaintances.
BleedingAssWound · 1 points · Posted at 18:55:30 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Our founding fathers were wise to use 1984 as an example of what not to do when writing the constitution.
PaulsEggo · 31 points · Posted at 17:47:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Exactly. So many opinions modern society takes for granted (such as equality) were hugely unpopular at one point. Imagine how far those efforts would have gone without freedom of speech!
GuyForgett · 8 points · Posted at 17:58:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's not true. It has nothing to do with popularity. It's about the government silencing viewpoints it doesn't want to spread. It's only about the government suppressing speech and opinions. Nothing to do With popularity.
[deleted] · 19 points · Posted at 18:01:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well when you have a government of elected officials voted in for by the majority, it's hard to really point out any obvious difference between the two. Government makes laws and silences viewpoints in the behalf of their constituents on America. The viewpoints they would suppress are almost never those of the majority.
[deleted] · -9 points · Posted at 19:33:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Liquid_Fire_ · 4 points · Posted at 20:02:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Good rebuttal. Your comment really contributed to the discussion.
[deleted] · -1 points · Posted at 20:20:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Liquid_Fire_ · 3 points · Posted at 20:33:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
We live in a Representative democracy(assuming you are from the U.S.) and by definition the "representatives vote on behalf of the people." In practice this doesn't always happen because the system is not perfect. So as you can see he is not making any logic leap.
Also, if you could keep the ad hominems to a minimum it would greatly help your credibility.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 20:42:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Liquid_Fire_ · 1 points · Posted at 21:02:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If a elected official holds unpopular opinions in conflict with their constituents they would be in jeopardy of not getting reelected. So if they want to get reelected (as in not get fired) they have to hold opinions that are representative of their constituents.
Thus if a majority of constituents want to silence a specific view point (see people against nazism) wouldn't it track that their elected official would try to silence that viewpoint?
regendo · 3 points · Posted at 19:00:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's not really what beep is saying though. Speech can be very unpopular but still be backed by some form of argument, at the very least a flawed argument. If you immediately jump to "well it's not illegal for me to say this" instead of trying to defend it with those arguments, it looks like you acknowledge that your speech is just worthless junk not backed by any arguments at all.
Kered13 · 1 points · Posted at 21:10:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The people trying to shut down speech they don't approve of aren't usually listening to rational arguments in the first place.
blewws · 5 points · Posted at 17:38:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This. My Uncle was so completely opposed to having that mosque/community center built near ground zero. Along with various racist arguments ("Muslims always build a mosque on locations they've conquered!") He said "besides, so many people are against it. That should be enough reason to not do it." It's funny how much of a patriot he considers himself too
FaxCelestis · 2 points · Posted at 17:46:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No, it's there to protect speech the government doesn't want you to say. That's not necessarily unpopular.
[deleted] · 15 points · Posted at 17:47:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Of course it doesn't have to be unpopular, but in most instances it is. Freedom of speech is usually something that protects minority groups from the majority oppressing their opinions.
FaxCelestis · -6 points · Posted at 17:49:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's incidental. The first amendment protects you from government censure, that's all.
[deleted] · 12 points · Posted at 17:54:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's what it protects in practice.
RazzPitazz · 1 points · Posted at 17:53:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The real 1 percenters.
BillW87 · -6 points · Posted at 17:52:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Except that's really not what it is there for. It is there to protect the people from the government, period. It's not there to protect the people from other people. Unpopular speech is still by definition unpopular, and freedom from government censure is not meant to protect you from the consequences of your own speech as determined by your peers (within the confines of the law).
Only if we look at the word "allows" to mean "not get thrown in jail by the government". People who hold beliefs that are truly unpopular and/or toxic can still face very real consequences for the quality of their speech to the point that it will directly or indirectly affect their willingness to express their legal freedom of speech.
-Edit- For any of those who are downvoting me, please feel free to test your "freedom of speech" by dropping the N word at your place of employment. I think you will find that while you are quite free to do so and will not be jailed, there is a strong possibility that you will face some consequences for the quality of your speech including likely losing your job. Freedom of choice is not freedom from consequence. All that the first amendment does is guarantee your basic legal right (with a few very select exceptions) to speak freely. It does not protect you from the societal consequences for doing so, nor is it intended to.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 17:53:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Who is our government elected by? The majority. They typically aren't censoring themselves in America.
BillW87 · 3 points · Posted at 18:07:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
While the first amendment does as a byproduct prevent the majority from using the government as a vehicle to suppress the opinion of the minority, that's not the intended purpose of it. It was crafted as a means to protect the people from government oppression. A look at the other 9 amendments in the Bill of Rights makes it clear what the intention of 1A was. It's nice that 1A also serves a role in protecting the people from the people, but it is first and foremost a check on the power of government over the people. A quick glance at the rest of the BoR makes it obvious:
1A: Protects the people against government censure
2A: Establishment of an armed populace
3A: Civilians cannot be compelled to house soldiers
4A: Protection against unreasonable search and seizure
5A: Protection of Rights to Life, Liberty, and Property
6A: Rights of Accused Persons in Criminal Cases
7A: Rights in Civil Cases
8A: Protection against unreasonable punishment by the government
9A: Other Rights Kept by the People
10A: Undelegated Powers Kept by the States and the People
tl;dr The 1A is far too often misconstrued as being meant to serve the role of protecting minority opinions against majority opinions. That was not and is not the intention of the 1A. It is meant to protect you from your own government and to be a check against its power, just like the other 9 amendments in the BoR. The majority is still well within their legal rights as long as they otherwise obey the law to ostracize, shun, boycott, or otherwise make life difficult for those who hold unpopular opinions. The freedom of speech is not a freedom from consequence.
TheMegaZord · -2 points · Posted at 18:36:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'd say unpopular and treasonous are two different things....
GlyphGryph · -3 points · Posted at 18:45:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'd argue the first amendment is mostly there and valuable because it serves to protect popular speech that poses a risk to those in power, not unpopular speech in and of itself.
I'd argue most of its value comes from allowing 90% of people to hold an opinion 10% disagrees with, even when the 10% are the ones deciding what the law is gonna be and how its gonna be enforced - because those 90% have enough power to change who the 10% are.
It's value is actually significantly less in terms of positions that are inherently marginal and have no social traction, its the ones that are popular or at least potentially popular that it really serves to protect.
Maleoppressor · 6 points · Posted at 17:37:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It isn't defense of the speech's content. It is defense of the right to say it and discuss it.
majinspy · 11 points · Posted at 17:57:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This got upvoted??? Tell that to civil rights protesters in the 60s. Tell that to gay right activists 8n the 80s. Tell that to Vietnam protesters in the 70s.
7thgradet3acher · 9 points · Posted at 17:14:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Or that what you are saying is true but unpopular
Rozeline · 73 points · Posted at 16:12:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I pretty much accept 'muh free speeech' as an admission of defeat.
7thgradet3acher · 51 points · Posted at 17:14:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Or that what they are saying is true but unpopular
Ilkenaal · 5 points · Posted at 17:43:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But if what they're saying is true, then they should be able to defend their argument in more ways than just "it's not technically illegal for me to say this."
7thgradet3acher · 14 points · Posted at 17:51:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There is none so blind as one who refuses to see.
KhorneChips · 2 points · Posted at 18:38:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you know the candlelight is fire, the meal was cooked long ago.
HGuyver · 2 points · Posted at 19:25:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
...wait, is that from Stargate? The Ohma Desala episode?
KhorneChips · 1 points · Posted at 19:56:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, reading proverbs like that always makes me think of it.
HGuyver · 1 points · Posted at 23:00:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I STILL don't understand what it means! ... wait. Is the point that it doesn't mean anything?
1998_2009_2016 · 2 points · Posted at 18:54:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Usually they are saying it's not illegal in response to people who are saying things like, 'I will punch you in the face for saying that' or 'We don't want people who say that around here, get lost'. Not debating the actual ideas, just how punished one should be for having the thought.
[deleted] · 25 points · Posted at 17:29:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Unusualmann · 2 points · Posted at 18:05:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
RIP
Sudaii · 6 points · Posted at 17:39:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
While the people that tend to use such lines aren't usually the best folks around, that line of thinking is very dangerous.
Absynthexx · 4 points · Posted at 18:06:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Do you though? Or do you use "admitting defeat" to actually mean 'shouldn't be allowed to say that since we already know it's wrong'? I ask because I've seen a lot of the latter recently.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:49:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That would be the wrong stance.
tableman · 7 points · Posted at 17:45:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The first amendment doesn't exist so you can share your grandmother's chocolate cake recipe. It exists so you can say controversial things that people don't want to hear.
[deleted] · 9 points · Posted at 17:31:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Unless you're arguing with thought nazis. Those who believe all your rights are forfeit because of your badthink, will have to deal with why your speech is legally protected in some cases.
That can be a good argument.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:20:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No, it just means your views of the world are irreconcilable. If the_Donald thinks that people shouldn't be allowed to disrespect the President, I'll be damned if I have to convince them that he deserves the name "Cheeto Benito". Free speech is my only line of defense in their eyes, but that doesn't make me wrong.
ghip94 · 4 points · Posted at 17:35:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Similarly, if your only argument is punching them in the face you probably don't have a very good argument.
screenwriterjohn · 2 points · Posted at 16:11:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ha. True. But still free speech.
Kered13 · 1 points · Posted at 21:16:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is the "If you have value your privacy then you must have something to hide" of free speech. It sickens me to see how popular it has become these days. When people come to shut down your speech, they aren't going to be listening to arguments, no matter how good they are.
djangounfazed · 1 points · Posted at 18:19:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There is a definite issue nowadays where the so called 'social repurcussions' and criticisms go from simple critiques in the marketplace of ideas to out and out censorship.
Im not going to defend James Demore's manifesto or even Google firing him - they are within their rights to do that. But the social vilification on twitter is a determined effort to disenfranchise a man who's crime was not being able to converse his (admittedly not complexly researched) ideas fully. I think Google firing him was a mistake for 2 reasons. 1, it made him a martyr to his cause and kept him in the news cycle where his firing was the main event and 2, it made it that much harder for scientists to weigh in on the issue and civil responses to be issued that made it clear he was misinformed or disingenuous. Perhaps it was best for PR reasons, but to be honest, the news cycle goes so quickly, i believe Demore would have been left behind.
He seems like an intelligent person, who may well have responded well to a civil debate - instead, it was deemed prudent to determine that he was an active danger who's 'free speech' hindered women's advancement in IT. I've heard the idea advanced that some people's free speech can limit others - for example promoting anti-trans free speech makes it less safe for trans folk to promote their community. My retort to that is 'we need to stop being afraid of nazis'. As much as the harry potter books are for children, they do contain a useful nugget of truth here and there; the relevant one being 'Fear of the name makes the fear of that thing that much more real.'
If we are to live in a liberal western democracy, then the fear of nazism, right wing populism, authoritarianism needs to be brought to the fore where bad ideas can be debunked in a public setting. Far from keeping richard spencer underground where he can fester, perhaps we can do what Hitchens did with Kurt Metzger in the 90's and slowly, methodically and humerously destroy each and every one of their ideas in a simple debate. Sunlight disinfected Milo and certainly will disinfect the spencers and dukes of the world. Part means we have a responsibility to be informed, be resourceful, determined and without mercy. But always be accurate and then when their fist extends, they have lost the argument and we can fight for real.
Alex470 · 1 points · Posted at 18:28:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Uhh...no? Definitely no. It's pretty concerning your comment has as much support as it does.
mad_redhatter · 1 points · Posted at 16:46:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not that a good argument was required.. just easier to support
Personage1 · 1 points · Posted at 18:40:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yup
snow_bono · 1 points · Posted at 18:54:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You sound like the people who wanted to fire, shame, and abuse those who spoke in favor of civil rights.
Faust_8 · 0 points · Posted at 17:12:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Put another way, if your only defense is the First Amendment then your only defense is that it wasn't illegal to say.
Xaxxon · 0 points · Posted at 18:01:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
but it might mean that you're ahead of your time, which is why it's protected.
Heyyoguy123 · 188 points · Posted at 15:59:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"But I have free speech!"
"Yeah, legally. Not socially."
[deleted] · 52 points · Posted at 17:33:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[removed]
Heyyoguy123 · 14 points · Posted at 17:43:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Agreed.
[deleted] · 15 points · Posted at 16:29:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Free speech is technically anywhere.
EnderSword · 32 points · Posted at 16:58:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What he's saying is it's free from legal consequences, it's not free from Social consequences.
MnemonicFitness · 1 points · Posted at 13:06:30 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
What's the practical distinction here, considering that social consequences can be even more intensive than legal consequences?
What would you rather take - a fine by the government, for expressing banned ideas or have your entire life ruined by a societal witchhunt?
yourhero7 · 1 points · Posted at 15:04:15 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Are you kidding? You think it would be limited to a fine from the government? How about dissenters in the USSR or Germany back in the day that would simply disappear, or be forced into slave labor camps? That's what people worry about from the government...
EnderSword · 1 points · Posted at 17:37:45 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I Think I'd first rather not be put in jail or killed.
When you spoke out against Stalin or King Henry the 8th or something, they didn't issue a stiff fine and send you on your way.
But I think you're missing the intention here. The 1st Amendment or any rules on free speech protect you from Government punishment over your right to speak.
They were never intend, nor should they ever be intended, to protect you from criticism or the consequences of how other people react to your message. You can't tell a bunch of individual people they can't dislike you for the things you say and express. You have the right to express it, and they have the right to react to it as long as it's not violent.
MnemonicFitness · 1 points · Posted at 07:36:09 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
It does go further than that. Not only do they criticize you, they go out of their way to ruin your life and your livelihood. There are many examples of societal witchhunts directed against people for saying what is socially deemed to be wrong - these people get harassed, their lives are threatened, they get fired and they remain social pariahs for the rest of their lives.
This distinction between Government and society has become worthless, because the majority of society, due to technology, has become very efficient at shutting down unwanted speech by themselves. The government doesn't even need to censor anything anymore, society does that by itself now - but without any due process or sense of proportion.
There is no right to free speech, when the majority will ruin your life for exercising it.
EnderSword · 1 points · Posted at 14:24:57 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
They can't shut down the speech, they can make it so there are consequences for that speech.
You can say it, no one can stop you from saying it.
But yes of course you can be fired for it, of course your life can be ruined for it.
You can't go to a Neo-Nazi rally one day then go back to work at a daycare the next day.
No one can stop you from having those opinions or talking about them, but of course they can treat you like shit after you tell everyone you're a piece of shit.
There can't possibly be laws that say 'Not only can he say anything he wants...But also...no one is allowed to be upset and react to it'
Your employers has every right to fire you, your friends have every right to unfriend you, strangers have every right to ignore you or yell at you. And you have every right to ignore that and say what you believe anyway.
They can't actually silence you, those Neo-Nazis got to do their march, no one can stop them. No one can stop them from printing out still white nationalist flyers and putting them on cars or standing on a corner with a swastika or whatever they do.
But you don't have to be nice to them, you don't have to employ them, you don't have to give them anything. You just can't stop them from speaking.
You proposing to 100% restrict the free rights of individuals to make decisions, that is insane. You want to turn the whole country into a safe space.
It's not. there's consequences for you being an evil person.
LachlantehGreat · 8 points · Posted at 17:36:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It protects you from being arrested if you say "Black people are stupid," but it doesn't protect you from getting punched in the face because you pissed someone off.
Olli399 · 32 points · Posted at 17:43:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No, laws against assault prevent that.
Because punching anyone, even nazis, is illegal.
LachlantehGreat · -11 points · Posted at 17:45:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well they don't protect you from it, it's just you can press charges if you do. It's more of a deterrent. I'm always partial to a good beat down.
biggerguythanjeb · 10 points · Posted at 18:06:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, I somehow doubt you go around beating up members of White supremacist prison gangs, Mr. internet tough guy.
LachlantehGreat · -14 points · Posted at 18:10:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Of course I do?? I'm a triple double MMA WWE black belt.
I was just saying I like seeing a good fight. I don't fight people irl, nor do I want to. I just like seeing a good beat down, that's all. Is there anything wrong with that?
Northsidebill1 · 11 points · Posted at 17:58:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
More people need to realize that freedom of speech doesnt mean freedom from suffering consequences for what you say
eatapenny · 1 points · Posted at 19:32:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In light of recent events in C'ville, and their subsequent consequences (people getting fired, getting vilified, etc), I imagine (and hope) that a few more people have realized this distinction.
Northsidebill1 · 2 points · Posted at 23:01:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Every person that realizes it is one less ignorant fuck about it. That makes me happy :)
DuneWasOk · 11 points · Posted at 18:50:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"But I have freedom of religion!"
"Yeah, legally. Not socially, Jew."
Thankfully, lots of people believe in the principle of Freedom of Religion and not just the law.
tvdinner4me · 3 points · Posted at 19:42:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Switch Jew with atheist and you've painted an accurate picture of some parts of America
DuneWasOk · 1 points · Posted at 21:35:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Those aren't the parts we should strive to be more like. Those aren't modern values.
neko · 2 points · Posted at 19:02:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Metasaber · 2 points · Posted at 20:15:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's always the south you fuckers like to pick on. My brother in law didn't hear anything even remotely anti-Semitic until he went from Alabama to Nee York. You northern fuckers are just as bad, only difference is the accent.
has_a_bigger_dick · 2 points · Posted at 21:03:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I actually think the more common misconception is people like you thinking that people complaining about a lack of free speech on Reddit think that it is a legal obligation when they are really just talking about the values they think the site should pursue. Literally every time I bring up what I would prefer Reddit do I get 20 replies saying it's not legally required.
Think I'm wrong? Show me one comment where someone says free speech on Reddit is a legal requirement.
evil_pope · 13 points · Posted at 18:20:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The reason the first amendment is admirable is because it supports and codifies the principle of free speech. Claiming to approve of one without supporting the other is just having your cake and eating it too. I don't understand how so many people can claim to believe that government censorship is wrong but give a complete free pass to any form of social censorship simply because it's 'not illegal'. If you believe in freedom of speech, that belief should extend to the behavior of your friends and neighbors just as well as the government. Saying you think a person should have the right to speak their mind then doing everything in your power to make sure they are ostracized and marginalized for doing so is like saying alcohol should be legal then fighting to make sure no bars are ever allowed to open. The government is made up of people, and if you think the government shouldn't suppress speech, it should be because you believe a person shouldn't suppress another person's speech. The first amendment isn't some legal technicality, it's a fundamental tenet of the American liberal idea based in the knowledge that words are not harmful in and of themselves, and suppressing the expression of an idea does not suppress the idea itself. If you don't believe in that then you don't believe in the spirit of the first amendment either, you're just paying lip service to a piece of paper.
DuneWasOk · 5 points · Posted at 20:03:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If it makes you feel any better, the Freedom or Religion arguments were pretty much the same 50 years ago:
"Oh sure, you're free to be a Jew, but I'm free to fire you for being a Jew"
"Freedom of religion doesn't mean freedom from the consequences of your religious belief"
"Freedom of Religion just means the government won't lock you up for being a Jew, I'm still going to punch you in the face."
Our culture and principles caught up and now the idea of holding someone "accountable" for their religious beliefs is seen as backwards and bigoted. We'll get there.
Kered13 · 2 points · Posted at 21:20:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I was going to say something like this, but you've done it much better than I could. Thank you.
[deleted] · 4 points · Posted at 19:26:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
evil_pope · 1 points · Posted at 20:36:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
PREMISE - "The government is made up of people..." THEREFORE, IF - "... if you think..." THIS - "... the government shouldn't suppress speech..." THEN - "... it should be because..." THAT - "... you believe a person shouldn't suppress another person's speech"
Do you disagree with the idea that words are not inherently harmful or with the idea that this is a tenet of American liberalism?
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 04:00:13 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
evil_pope · 0 points · Posted at 07:20:07 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I wrote a convoluted sentence which you claimed was illogical (without explaining how) so I clarified my point by breaking it into component parts and displaying how they fit together logically. I responded plainly and directly to your criticism and you claim I'm 'derailing' you.
Words are not inherently harmful, they can be insulting or offensive within certain contexts, but that's a matter of ideas, not the words themselves. Even that would require a loose definition of 'harmful', which is an matter of semantics, and only further emphasizes the importance of context.
The bedrock of American Enlightenment-inspired liberalism is that a person should be free to do as they wish so long as that freedom does not infringe on the freedom of others. Freedom of speech clearly does not qualify as such an exception, and has been defended by liberal thinkers consistently throughout the history of America. I don't see how you can deny that.
Agent_Dutchess · 8 points · Posted at 18:41:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Someone tell that to all the people demanding Colin Kapernick play.
The guy's better than a few QBs on rosters, sure. But his baggage outweighs his productivity, so he isn't hired. It's a business. Marshawn Lynch has been doing it his whole career and he's a starter, because his talent outweighs his baggage.
TheCookieMonster · 33 points · Posted at 17:36:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And 90% of people don't understand that free speech is broader than the First Amendment - it's an Enlightenment ideal broader than government.
anotherhumantoo · -11 points · Posted at 17:53:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But what we amount to the United States' interpretation of Free Speech is codified in the First Amendment, which is why we call it that.
CourierOfTheWastes · 5 points · Posted at 17:58:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Indeed.
I'd like to add that while others can use their rights to be rid of you I.E. Banning from private establishments, being shunned, denied private employment, they cannot violate your rights in return.
If someone is using their first amendment right in a way you don't like, you're not morally or legally justified in committing assault and battery.
Gunnilingus · 10 points · Posted at 17:47:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's true, but that doesn't mean people can't express anger and dissatisfaction with private businesses that have policies that suppress free speech of their employees or customers.
[deleted] · 5 points · Posted at 16:49:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ugh, the mom of my older brother's son pulls this shit. She was going on and on on facebook about his drug use and mental illness. Since she was friends with my grandmother, we asked her not to, because it was upsetting her. Then we got rants about "people are infringing on my first amendment rights!" What a complete moron.
snow_bono · 3 points · Posted at 19:11:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Copied from another user
EmeraldJunkie · 3 points · Posted at 17:38:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think it's fair to point out that many countries have freedom of expression without it being a law, and many countries have hate speech laws as well.
SerPlumtree · 3 points · Posted at 18:50:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
On top of this I would add that people don't get that saying someone shouldn't be allowed to say something no matter how abhorrent means that you don't really believe in free speech, BUT THATS OKAY, you're allowed to not believe that free speech is the most important thing if you want.
lolinokami · 9 points · Posted at 17:34:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But even though it really only protects you from the government that doesn't mean that you can't take legal recourse when someone violently opposes your opinion if you were peacefully exercising your rights. For example, if you are not actively provoking someone to attack you and they hit you because they don't like your opinion, that is assault and you can press charges.
lostmywayboston · 6 points · Posted at 18:42:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah but that doesn't really have anything to do with free speech or the 1st Amendment.
That's assault.
Money_Bags97 · 5 points · Posted at 17:27:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"You have to sit here and listen to my opinion! I have freedom of speech!"
Your entitled to your opinion, but I don't have to listen to it.
djp1968 · 2 points · Posted at 17:05:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You beat me to the punch. As soon as I saw the question, before seeing your response, I posted this same answer, stated more generally. It is particularly timely in this day and age.
DrMux · 2 points · Posted at 17:36:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The First Amendment means that I, and ONLY I, can say and do whatever I want without consequence.
FionaTheHuman · 2 points · Posted at 18:23:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Freedom of speech, not freedom from the consequences of your speech.
Personage1 · 2 points · Posted at 18:39:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You have the right to speak, no one has to listen though.
MadManatee619 · 2 points · Posted at 18:59:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Also that "free speech" doesn't mean "anything that comes out of my mouth"
dannixxphantom · 2 points · Posted at 19:15:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A good rule of thumb: your right ends where they infringe upon someone else's. Yeah, John, you can say racist shit, but you can't burn a fucking cross in your neighbor's yard.
bmerry1 · 2 points · Posted at 19:29:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequence.
jediminer543 · 2 points · Posted at 19:59:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
https://xkcd.com/1357/
jmbourn45 · 6 points · Posted at 16:32:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
ie Colin Kaepernick
[deleted] · 8 points · Posted at 17:14:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
jmbourn45 · 7 points · Posted at 17:30:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Exactly, they (DC/Kaep) have the freedom to say what they want, and the people who put money in their pocket (album buyers/NFL owners) have the freedom to go disagree with what they said and not put money in their pocket
GKrollin · 2 points · Posted at 18:15:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And Curt Schilling. Yeah, he's a conservative, but unpopular opinions are unpopular opinions.
thricecheck · 6 points · Posted at 17:38:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In case this doesn't explain it good enough, Here's an explanation with pictures.
BradSavage64 · 2 points · Posted at 17:55:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There's always a relevant XKCD.
JebbAnonymous · 3 points · Posted at 17:19:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, this one. I always laugh when you read about some idiot tweeting racist/stupid stuff and then getting fired and complaining about their free speech being infringed upon.
Brawndo91 · 3 points · Posted at 16:20:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sort of related, but this reminds of the bakery in Arizona that wouldn't sell a cake to the lesbian couple. People went nuts over it, rightfully, but I don't think the law should be changed to force them to serve everybody.
Of course I wouldn't want any business to discriminate based on sexual orientation. But a bakery is not an essential service, so they should have the right to. And the part that people miss, is that the discriminated parties have the right to make it public, and those who hear or read about it have the right the tell others, and refuse to give them business. Simple word of mouth can jeopardize a business that engages in discrimination. The law should only step in when it involves something essential like healthcare, or maybe grocery stores since they can sell tax-exempt items. Any non-essential business should have the right to refuse to serve anyone, which comes with the right to be publicly scrutinized for it.
rjbman · 4 points · Posted at 18:53:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The difference here is that there are certain protected statuses (race, gender, and religion among them) that are illegal to discriminate against on that basis, here in the US of A.
adream1 · 10 points · Posted at 17:28:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
is it okay for that bakery to not serve black people? How would you react if I opened a restaurant for white people only?
MVWORK · 2 points · Posted at 18:20:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What if you have to serve everyone what you already have but you don't have make custom things for them? So a bakery has to serve cannolis to gay people but they don't have to make a wedding cake for them?
adream1 · 3 points · Posted at 18:26:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
As a business you can do that- you just can't discriminate- you can't make a wedding cake for heterosexual couple but not for homosexual couple, or a birthday cake for a white kid but not for a black kid.
You don't want to bake wedding cakes for gay couples or print political stuff (right or left policies) then you can do that by having your bakery not make wedding cakes at all, for straight and gay couple, or having your print press not print any political messages.
duphre · 3 points · Posted at 18:04:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You'd go out of business
globlobglob · 6 points · Posted at 19:24:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You probably would these days. That doesn't address the moral issue at all, though. There was a time when segregated businesses thrived. Where was the righteous invisible hand of the market then? If there's enough prejudiced consumers in the surrounding community, discriminatory business do just fine.
duphre · 1 points · Posted at 19:35:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
True, that argument was more convincing a few decades ago before the internet and services like Amazon. In the rare occasion where a non white person is surrounded by bigoted whites that won't serve them, they'll have to vote with their feet (as in, leave the town full of bigots that hates non whites).
globlobglob · 2 points · Posted at 19:55:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Amazon isn't a replacement for restaurants, coffee shops, bars, or any other businesses that are valuable for their social aspect--to say nothing about the insanity of the idea that marginalized groups should just stay inside and order everything they need off the internet.
And isn't "vote with your feet" based on the same premise as "if yew don't like it, boy, yew can get out the hell out of our town"?
duphre · 0 points · Posted at 20:33:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You are using some extreme example of an overtly racist town in order to reach your conclusions. American society is not like this. The South is probably the most integrated geographical region in the United States.
Voting with your feet is not some racist dog whistle as you implied. If a town is too racist to serve you a cup of coffee, why stay? The United States is (historically at least) a very mobile society.
globlobglob · 2 points · Posted at 22:24:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just to be clear, I'm not accusing you of racist dogwhistling, I'm just saying that that argument can be a justification for allowing a community to create an alienating environment towards a certain group of people.
"If you don't like it you can leave" ignores the fact that many people can't just move away. Imagine if you had to uproot your whole life, possibly your family's as well, and move to a new place. It would be hard for a wealthy person to leave behind their friends, their job, their hometown that they knew and loved. It's next to impossible for a poor person. And marginalized groups tend to be poor.
The south is integrated, but it went kicking and screaming. You assume that in time discrimination will disappear on it's own, but that's ignoring our historical context of bloody struggle to integrate. Without the Civil Rights Act or the civil rights movement, who knows how long segregation would have continued? Who knows how long it would have been before southerners just threw up their hands and said "fair enough, you can sit with me"? Remember, segregation had existed for a hundred years before the civil rights act.
And my example seems extreme with race, but it's not that extreme at all to imagine entire towns where the majority is against gay people. I used this "extreme example" (that actually was the norm for a hundred years) to provide context as to why people want to prevent discriminatory business practices.
duphre · 0 points · Posted at 01:18:04 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think you are projecting some low expectations for people in this scenario. Again, if you're in a town of racists/bigots that do not want to engage your business, the incentive to leave is pretty damn high. Indeed, for me personally, it would be a pain in the ass to move the town over. But I am not operating in a scenario where no business owner is willing to take my money because of my race.
What are you assuming? That discrimination won't go away until government takes action? It was government that enacted slavery, jim crow, segregation, and any other racist laws (subtle as they may be).
Also, my point in saying that the South is integrated is that there a lot of non-whites in the South. They also open businesses and provide services to their cities. There seems to be an assumption that only whites own businesses with these scenarios.
I'm not sure about the relevance of this, unless you are trying to create an equivalence between a baker refusing to make a cake for a gay person in 2017 to jim crow laws in 1960. The times are quite different.
You use the extreme example because the extreme example is necessary to justify government interference in private enterprise. It's the same reason why people who are pro-abortion use rape and incest as examples for you to agree with them politically (despite the fact that rape and incest make up an very small minority of abortions). I'm pro-abortion but I can acknowledge that it's just a debate tactic used in politics.
Look, I hate that businesses would be willing to discriminate on any basis and I also hate government bureaucrats getting more involved in private enterprise. For better and for worse, American society was built on the premise of freedom (among which is economic freedom).
Brawndo91 · -1 points · Posted at 18:03:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It should be okay by law, even if I personally think it's a shitty thing to do. And since most people think it's a shitty thing to do, it wouldn't be open for long.
Let's say the law says you have to serve everyone. That of course means you can't turn down black people, lesbians, eskimos, whatever. It also means you can't turn down the guy in a "I hate n*****" t-shirt. Or you have to bake a cake decorated with a nice big confederate flag, because the law says you can't turn anyone down.
adream1 · 5 points · Posted at 18:15:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
so it's okay for stores to not serve people of color or LGBTQ people then– what if you live in a small town with one bakery or only one grocery store?
According to you we might as well go back to Jim Crow's era.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 19:15:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There's nothing in the constitution that says you must be able to patronize a bakery. That leads to the argument that every town must have a least one bakery. You're not entitled to a bakery. I get your argument, but it's a lot more complicated than that.
Brawndo91 · -3 points · Posted at 18:33:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm only saying that a private business should get to decide who they serve. They have to face the consequences if they piss people off (And read my original comment. I addressed grocery stores).
The laws that were enacted in some states protect race, religion, orientation, ethnicity, things like that. So that means your bakery has to make a cake for the upcoming anti-abortion party, even if you're pro-choice. Just an example of the other side of the coin.
adream1 · 7 points · Posted at 18:42:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I understand what you're saying and I'm disagreeing with it.
You can't do that for many reasons- if you live in a town where every private business is going to discriminate against you due to your skin color or sexuality then you're fucked. You also run into the problem of defining what a necessity is- your baked goods are not everyday necessity, and neither are figs that your grocery store serves, or toilet paper. So what businesses are allowed to discriminate and what businesses aren't?
If I'm a baker, and I don't want to decorate a cake with a confederate flag or pro-life message, then as a bakery I'm allowed to do that, by having a rule- no cake decoration- or no political messages wether it's right or left leaning. No wedding cakes, wether it's for straight couple or gay couple. Private businesses can have their own rules (GoDaddy Vs that neo-nazi site or Google vs that guy they just fired recently) they just can't pick and choose who these rules apply to.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 18:01:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
adream1 · 2 points · Posted at 18:16:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
what if it's the only bakery or restaurant in town? what if every restaurant or bakery in that town is going to refuse me service due to my sexuality or skin color? Should I move out of town or live in that hostile environment because it should be okay for a business to discriminate against me?
ristoril · 1 points · Posted at 19:58:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If someone is operating a public accommodation of any sort (not only "essential services," whatever those are) it is illegal for them to discriminate against people for anything that's equivalent to race. If sexual orientation is equivalent to race, then it's illegal for them to discriminate. If they want the right to discriminate, they need to convert to a members-only establishment (e.g. charge dues and keep a list of members).
No one has a right to own and operate a business that's open to the public and then refuse to serve members of the public on grounds that are equivalent to race. That's not a right that's protected anywhere in the Constitution.
tokol · 3 points · Posted at 17:56:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[removed by reddit admins]
Mode1961 · 1 points · Posted at 17:33:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There are other laws for that.
commandrix · 1 points · Posted at 17:58:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Agreed. That's why a lot of FB group moderators seem to be so uptight a lot of the time. Dude, there are plenty of space groups where you can talk politics as it relates to space policy, but Space Hipsters isn't one of them.
cookmybook · 1 points · Posted at 17:59:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yea, say whatever you want but im going to judge you for it.
Thorgil · 1 points · Posted at 18:02:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There's an xkcd about this, that it protects you from being sued about an opinion, but people can still find you a jerk and not hang out with you, or something like that.
maybe_little_pinch · 1 points · Posted at 18:05:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I am a chat room moderator on flash games website. I feel like I am an expert on the first amendment now because I have to explain it so often.
chaun2 · 1 points · Posted at 18:10:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Can a Jewish Narwhal even bacon?
TyrodWatkins514 · 1 points · Posted at 18:11:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
cough Colin Kaepernick cough
shanulu · 1 points · Posted at 18:14:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Which means a business can refuse to serve you for whatever reason.
GKrollin · 1 points · Posted at 18:16:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I only know this from that one West Wing Episode but a "Shibboleth" is literally a saying that people repeatedly cite that some think to be wrong...
NarwhalShibboleth · 2 points · Posted at 20:08:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you continue reading the first line of that wikipedia article, it continues:
The West Wing episode specifically used that second definition, as a kind of secret code word to distinguish a group. An early Reddit shibboleth was "The narwhal bacons at midnight."
Nice try, though.
Jwhitx · 2 points · Posted at 03:17:11 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I like the biblical root. Army 1 beats Army 2 (for a completely moronic reason, but whatever). Army 2 escapes across a river. Army 1 quizzes anyone crossing to pronounce Shibboleth correctly (ally), kills anyone that can't (enemy). So basically if you don't bacon at midnight, you should die is what you mean.
Gibborim · 1 points · Posted at 18:29:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There are a few exceptions carved out, but generally true.
theosamabahama · 1 points · Posted at 18:31:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I believe most people understand this. Some uneducated and immature people don't.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:46:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Except in the case of religion. And while the first amendment might not otherwise protect your job, there are federal and local laws which do.
thailoblue · 1 points · Posted at 18:49:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Also that the first amendment protects Hate speech.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:52:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
While this is all true, I've seen so many people on reddit lately using the "freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequences of that speech" to justify violence against the speaker. That is not the same thing and should not be tolerated by any human being who wants to live in civilized society.
You are under no obligation to listen to abhorrent viewpoints or tolerate them in your private home or business, but you do not have the right to shut them up by physically assaulting them.
Adog777 · 1 points · Posted at 19:07:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
wtf everyone knows this
Mario_Sh · 1 points · Posted at 19:09:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
wait does that mean you can say whatever you want on a government job?
GracchiBros · 1 points · Posted at 19:11:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I guarantee more than 10% of people get that. It's far closer to 10% that don't understand it. But here we are with one of the highest posts and even gilded. No political agenda here though...nope..
BreeZaps · 1 points · Posted at 19:14:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Relevant xkcd comic: https://xkcd.com/1357/
The_Canadian_Devil · 1 points · Posted at 19:16:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
relevant xkcd
Fuzati · 1 points · Posted at 19:29:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's the point. You're free to be an intolerant piece of shit (on either side of the political spectrum) but expect to suffer the full consequences of your actions.
norsurfit · 1 points · Posted at 19:36:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's the same with all Constitutional matters generally - only government action can be unconstitutional
The constitution is fundamentally about limiting the government, not private actors.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:36:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
U mean FREEZE PEACH?
invisiblephrend · 1 points · Posted at 19:47:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
or /u/spez from editing comments
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:49:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I get how being a literal Nazi might make it tough for someone to find employment at a private company, but could someone work for the government with a background like that?
MartyVanB · 1 points · Posted at 19:55:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I JUST had this argument last night. Some dude tweeted that Go Daddy was violating Stormfront's First Amendment rights by telling them they had to shut down or move their cite. I told him that was ludicrous and used your explanation above. He said there were multiple Supreme Court cases that ruled that 1A rights apply to private companies. I asked him to name a case. So far silence
Thelonius16 · 1 points · Posted at 19:55:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes, but the first amendment is just the government's codification of a very important principle that everyone should respect. It's an expression of how most Americans want to live their lives, not the be-all and end-all of free speech.
NULL_CHAR · 1 points · Posted at 19:56:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But that doesn't mean that being upset at the practice is wrong either though. We hold free speech in high regards and even legal private restriction of it is not necessarily a good thing
LasciviousSycophant · 1 points · Posted at 19:56:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Most people don't understand that employers are not bound by the majority of the Constitution, and they can shit all over what you think are your rights.
Free speech? Nope. Right to bear arms at work? Nope. Right to vote? Nope. Freedom from unreasonable search and seizure? Nope. Due process before being fired? Nope. Etc., et al., ad nauseam.
nate_oc · 1 points · Posted at 19:58:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Right on. Also, right of free speech also entails your right to be subject to the punishments of your derogatory speech (I.e. When josh Wedon cursed out on Twitter)
Tfeth282 · 1 points · Posted at 20:01:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The first amendment protects you legally, but the wider ideal of free speech should, hypothetically, protect you socially. I hate the false equivalence that the 1st amendment of the united states bill of rights is free speech.
That said, there's not much you can do for idiots, free speech or no.
airstrike · 1 points · Posted at 20:03:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Which pretty clearly shows one other common thing that 90% of people don't get: constitutional rights are not absolute. The right to bear arms doesn't mean you can carry any weapon anywhere.
doihavemakeanewword · 1 points · Posted at 20:10:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Also: Reddit is included under "private establishments". The admins can throw you out and don't have to come up with a reason for it if they don't want to.
NotSBS · 442 points · Posted at 16:12:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's spelt "lose" not "loose" I cannot believe the amount of people who get that wrong
ace_case · 169 points · Posted at 18:00:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I loose my mind over misteaks like that.
abeth · 21 points · Posted at 18:25:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's Mr. Steaks to you
Fluffranka · 8 points · Posted at 18:40:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Are you Post-op now? Congratulations!
IMightBeAnExpert · 2 points · Posted at 19:57:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Read that as post OP and was very confused.
johnnybiggles · 1 points · Posted at 21:19:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You made a misstake
RandomStoryBadEnding · 3 points · Posted at 19:44:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Eye loose my mine over misteaks lik dat.
hypersonic_platypus · 4 points · Posted at 20:43:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I hate you.
RandomStoryBadEnding · 4 points · Posted at 20:55:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Eye h8 u 2,
hypersonic_platypus · 3 points · Posted at 20:59:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
silent rage
cpMetis · 1 points · Posted at 20:03:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Weird Al would like a word with you.
Runaway_5 · 1 points · Posted at 22:48:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You're a lose cannon.
ClassBShareHolder · 1 points · Posted at 02:15:17 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Have you got a screw lose?
[deleted] · 14 points · Posted at 18:00:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Rouge spelling really annoys me.
chaun2 · 2 points · Posted at 18:51:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The rogue went rouge when the wizard pissed her off
Ardub23 · 1 points · Posted at 20:02:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
She allied herself with the rouge angles of Satin
chaun2 · 1 points · Posted at 15:12:05 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
<twitch>
FatSquirrels · 13 points · Posted at 18:18:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think you just need to losen up a bit.
ParentheticalComment · 7 points · Posted at 18:38:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My jeans are somewhat lose. Nope that doesnt seem quite right. ;)
PM_ME_A_PM_PLEASE_PM · 0 points · Posted at 19:09:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But I can help you lose em girl if that's what you need
hehe xd
StuftRug · 6 points · Posted at 18:45:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So my favorite Kevin Bacon movie is actually called Footlose? Sounds like a much darker story of dancing so hard that amputation is necessary.
marpocky · 1 points · Posted at 20:29:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When I was a kid I thought "Footloose" was the name of a guy, and everybody had to cut him. It was a confusingly violent song to me.
[deleted] · 15 points · Posted at 18:37:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Keiji99 · 2 points · Posted at 22:23:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
He's clearly referring to the vast number of people, who even I see in Reddit threads, spell "loose" when correctly it would be "lose".
Ardub23 · -1 points · Posted at 20:05:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
'Lose' is used more often though, and people somehow get it with two Os.
Edit: To clarify, I meant that the word 'lose' appears more frequently in English speech and writing than the word 'loose', but with how frequently it's misspelled you'd think they were as even as 'lie' and 'lay'.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 20:52:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Ardub23 · 0 points · Posted at 20:53:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What I meant was that losing something is a topic that comes up more often than looseness.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 20:56:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Ardub23 · 2 points · Posted at 21:00:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
http://www.wordfrequency.info/free.asp (click "See the list")
'Lose' (including variants) is the 284th-most-used word in English, while 'loose' is 2,874th.
[deleted] · -1 points · Posted at 21:16:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Ardub23 · 2 points · Posted at 21:19:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Huh? When did I call one 'right' and the other 'wrong'? I only meant that it's wrong to use two Os when you're talking about losing something. I don't know how you've construed that to mean anything else.
MostlyAngry · 4 points · Posted at 18:27:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Or there, they're and their, your and you're, it's its, and literally every other contraction, because you+are =you're is such a strange concept.
j_from_cali · 5 points · Posted at 18:53:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And I so, so wish that people would learn the correct usage of "effect" and "affect".
Ardub23 · 2 points · Posted at 20:08:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think this would effect a great change in the world. Could elicit positive affects in people.
j_from_cali · 1 points · Posted at 20:47:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Nicely ambiguous. Well done.
aaronbp · 3 points · Posted at 18:42:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Similarly, wary and weary are different words and mean different things. Definitely and defiantly as well.
pilguy · 5 points · Posted at 18:55:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Loose rhymes with moose.
Another one I see wrong often is using lead instead of led for something like: he led the race until the final lap.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:14:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Holy shit it all makes sense now. I always fuck up lose and loose.
Elaborate_vm_hoax · 4 points · Posted at 19:01:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ensure and insure are the ones that always get me. The number of company-wide distributions I've seen with this wrong is pretty appalling.
masinmancy · 3 points · Posted at 19:04:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Spilling split spelt soup soiled Sally's spoiled pet's pelt
eddie_koala · 3 points · Posted at 19:35:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Breathe / breath
z_plash · 2 points · Posted at 18:31:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
NotSBS is on the lose
bugbits · 2 points · Posted at 19:20:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
People with poor grammer drive me nuts
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 19:31:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
*grammar
461weavile · 5 points · Posted at 19:48:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
He didn't say anything about spelling, however
Ardub23 · 1 points · Posted at 20:14:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You're missing punctuation at the end of your sentence.
MBCnerdcore · 2 points · Posted at 19:29:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I feel like this was something no one got wrong until smartphones were a thing.
PsychologicallyFat · 2 points · Posted at 19:37:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That the singular of "women" is "woman". There is no such thing as "a women".
wolvern76 · 4 points · Posted at 18:43:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Its also spelled spelled, not spelt. You spelled it a certain way, and that is the way it is spelled. Don't lose your mind over the replies though.
Sturgeon_Genital · 6 points · Posted at 19:32:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
British mate
Ardub23 · 1 points · Posted at 20:13:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In the US, 'spelt' is only used as the name of a type of wheat. But other dialects also use 'spelt' interchangeably with 'spelled'.
motsanciens · 2 points · Posted at 18:41:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You can't be petty and leave your sentence without punctuation.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:33:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
They can and they did!
461weavile · 1 points · Posted at 19:50:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You can on reddit. Reddiquette specifically states that you can appropriately end a post without punctuation, as long as the punctuation would not be a question mark
motsanciens · 2 points · Posted at 20:32:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I can't find that. Would you point it out? There's this:
461weavile · 1 points · Posted at 22:09:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Hmm. I suppose I'll retract my statement until I find it again, but I'm not sure where I saw it
Ardub23 · 1 points · Posted at 20:16:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think it generally conveys informality. I mostly leave off punctuation when I'm being facetious. Doesn't work as well for longer sentences though.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 19:33:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not only are they being petty, but their sentence is poorly worded. Lose and loose are both spelled (not "spelt") correctly.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:39:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 11:36:39 on August 17, 2017 · (Permalink)
Spelt is a word. It's a type of wheat.
HorsemanOfWar · 1 points · Posted at 18:06:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I will admit, I do commonly make that mistake, though for the most part it is a typo and not just my sheer stupidity trying to impress me
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:49:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
yeah, I hate it when my my belt is too lose
Ardub23 · 1 points · Posted at 20:13:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
*to lose
Pm-Your-Nice-Tits · 1 points · Posted at 19:05:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Also, "nose" and "noose".
JennyFromTheBlock79 · 1 points · Posted at 19:11:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
To this day wearing lose still makes me think of something that rhymes with close
Internalocus · 1 points · Posted at 19:14:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Also those who use the word "anyways." "Anyway" is an adverb and adverbs cannot be plural.
Nocturnalized · 1 points · Posted at 19:40:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well, to be honest, "lose" is correctly spelled "lose" and "loose" is correctly spelled "loose".
FrederikTwn · 1 points · Posted at 20:04:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A bolt can be loose.
You can lose a game.
They're two different words.
APurpleBear · 1 points · Posted at 20:07:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
KNOCK ARROWS... LOSE
donteatpoop · 1 points · Posted at 20:18:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I have a lose tooth.
12lawliet12 · 1 points · Posted at 21:02:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Also, "I seen" vs "I saw"
panchowarriortrilogy · 1 points · Posted at 21:40:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Got it! "This screw is lose!" I did it!
Aiognim · 1 points · Posted at 00:17:52 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Defiantly, dude, its crazy.
Mechasteel · 1 points · Posted at 01:11:35 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Amen, brother! Please keep correcting those people with the lose grammar.
marpocky · 1 points · Posted at 06:01:01 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Also "amount" vs "number"
IDoNotAgreeWithYou · 1 points · Posted at 06:13:33 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
"My shoelace is lose."
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 12:45:48 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Don't loose your temper man
Impregneerspuit · 1 points · Posted at 16:12:52 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
whole and hole and ive seen 'life the live you love' on a status more than a few times
BleedingAssWound · 1 points · Posted at 18:57:06 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oh, I didn't know. I guess my girlfriend is lose as hell then.
[deleted] · -1 points · Posted at 19:30:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's spelled "spelled," not "spelt."
Sometimes it is spelled "loose."
DreamingIsFun · 0 points · Posted at 19:10:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That shit makes me loose my mind.
scw55 · 0 points · Posted at 19:52:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Spelled*
Spelt is a historic crop grain.
The phonetic for -ed is /t/.
I studied Teach English as a Foreign Language and I hated that module. So petty. Oh well, it's the Official English thing.
Co2Lamester · -2 points · Posted at 18:19:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I mean, it is a pretty easy mistake to make... (edited to sounds less wonky and dickish)
Sturgeon_Genital · 6 points · Posted at 19:32:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not if you've attended the third grade
Best_Panda_Evah · -1 points · Posted at 19:59:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's spelled "spelled" not "spelt" I cannot believe the amount of people who get that wrong
[deleted] · -5 points · Posted at 19:00:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[removed]
tylerjames · 8 points · Posted at 19:26:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's both the British version of "spelled" and a type of wheat.
LeOmeletteDuFrommage · 1 points · Posted at 19:37:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The British are silly folk
tylerjames · 2 points · Posted at 19:56:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Undoubtedly
Ardub23 · 2 points · Posted at 20:16:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Quite
Squidman12 · 2 points · Posted at 20:24:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Indubitably
cooldanch · -2 points · Posted at 19:40:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"spelt"
flnagoration · -3 points · Posted at 19:38:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"spelt" hasn't been a word for 500 years, but okay sure bud it's "lose"
Rahwen · 445 points · Posted at 17:22:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You are not good at texting and driving, you've just been lucky so far.
askredditbanned19 · 9 points · Posted at 19:55:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ha, I'll show y
growlingbear · 6 points · Posted at 20:05:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Even Mythbusters proved that Texting and Driving is worse than Drunk Driving.
Seicair · 4 points · Posted at 20:33:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
hold button until beep sounds
"Tell (friendname) I'm on my way"
"Ready to send?"
"Send"
Never took my eyes off the road.
chandlerjo4 · 3 points · Posted at 19:48:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You can probably be good at choosing when to do it. Not saying it's a responsible thing to do, but if you're on a empty road, or stopped at a light that you generally know is a long light, the risk is probably lessened. Again not saying it's a responsible decision, but saying the person is just lucky seems a bit of an overstep.
jamsterical · 2 points · Posted at 20:49:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
As an experienced driver I can usually predict from a distance if some idiot is using their phone. From behind, the tells are slight weaving in their lane (more than the average idiot), and strange variations in speed. From beside them, I've seen them looking down for 3-4 seconds (I'm sure they think it was a half-second). This even happens in dense traffic.
I also disagree with you about empty roads. It doesn't take much to run off the road (see micro-corrections), and if it's really empty and you really mess it up, you're screwed.
Related: please stop texting at the red light. 99/100 times I see this as a pedestrian, the offender delays the line of people waiting to go (and the poor sod at the back of the line has no idea you're the root cause of him getting stuck at the light for the fifth click). Sometimes I carry a cup of water to splat on their windshield, but mostly I just yell at these idiots to get moving.
chandlerjo4 · 2 points · Posted at 21:00:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Again, not condoning this behavior. If you are at the red light though worst case scenario is you get rear ended or inconvenience someone. As for the empty road one, yeah you're probably right, but it can't be too hard to slow down a bit and just do glances or speech to text. Idk, if you're gonna make bad decisions at least use some common sense.
Trust_Me_Im_Right · 0 points · Posted at 20:17:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is my take on it. Sure I know it's stupid but if I chose the right times to do it I'm only marginally increasing my chances of getting into an accident
_stoneslayer_ · 8 points · Posted at 20:22:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I have a friend who lost a 1 and 3 year old to a texting and driving accident. Driving dangerously doesnt only affect the driver
Trust_Me_Im_Right · 0 points · Posted at 20:23:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm not saying it's a good idea. I'm saying there's a dangerous way to text and drive and there's a less dangerous way to text and drive
_stoneslayer_ · 6 points · Posted at 21:32:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I mean if you're just in your car not moving, ya text away. But even at 20 mph you're covering a lot of ground in that second or two seconds of not paying attention
Trust_Me_Im_Right · -1 points · Posted at 21:43:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What's more dangerous, texting with cars around you while going around a bend, or going straight with no one around. That's my point
_stoneslayer_ · 4 points · Posted at 22:36:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Whats more dangerous? Driving after having 10 beers or 15? Either way you're a selfish asshole for doing it. Thats my point
Trust_Me_Im_Right · 0 points · Posted at 22:41:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No one's denying that, god you're dense
_stoneslayer_ · 3 points · Posted at 22:58:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ok thanks! Have a nice day
fopiecechicken · 2 points · Posted at 20:30:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I would argue that some people are "good" at texting and driving. It's just that being good at it doesn't decrease the danger to an acceptable point. I guarantee I'm way less likely to get into an accident because of texting while driving than my mother is, I am a better driver, have better reflexes, I'm m better multi-tasker etc. None of that means I should do it though.
BlowsBubbles · 1 points · Posted at 20:29:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You think that's bad. I have a friend who spanks it on long drives on interstate roads. I call him an idiot but like most people he says he's a good driver and can text and drive or rub one out and drive. Well most people don't think they can diddle themselves and drive but still.
AlrightyAlmighty · 1 points · Posted at 00:58:15 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I agree that texting and driving is a bad idea, but I'm still driving safer when I'm drunk and texting than my ex when she's sober and not texting.
fopiecechicken · 0 points · Posted at 20:30:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I would argue that some people are "good" at texting and driving. It's just that being good at it doesn't decrease the danger to an acceptable point. I guarantee I'm way less likely to get into an accident because of texting while driving than my mother is, I am a better driver, have better reflexes, I'm m better multi-tasker etc. None of that means I should do it though.
[deleted] · -33 points · Posted at 18:51:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
they could also just be good at texting and driving
Kufu1796 · 30 points · Posted at 19:17:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Nope they're lucky. Period. You can't multitask two high function things at once. Your attention will shift back and forth between your phone and driving, and data shows that looking away for only 2 seconds increases your risk of a crash by 20%. The brain literally cannot handle texting and driving. You're not good at it, no one's good at it. Period.
iceworlock2 · 10 points · Posted at 20:12:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I had an accident like this a year ago. I turned my head for maybe a second with a two car gap in front of me. The next thing I knew the car in front of me had slammed his brakes I slammed mine. If I didn't look away for that one second I would still have my car.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 04:53:14 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
not saying it's a good idea, but you can certainly be more or less skilled at texting and driving, and the more skilled person will be less likely to end up in an accident
Kufu1796 · 2 points · Posted at 06:08:53 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not really. You can't really practice it, all you can do is look up more frequently, and even that has been shown to be bad(you're looking, but not seeing). It's a serious issue, and everyone who has done it and are alive today are lucky, not good.
[deleted] · -50 points · Posted at 19:28:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Nope. People can be good at texting and driving.
The human brain literally does it.
sarrick21 · 23 points · Posted at 19:49:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
People like you who think people can text and drive safely is why I feel unsafe driving
level777 · 10 points · Posted at 19:56:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah driving can be pretty terrifying when half the drivers you pass have their heads down looking at their phone.
[deleted] · -28 points · Posted at 19:53:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You probably feel unsafe driving because you're a bad driver. Too defensive. Sorry.
cpMetis · 16 points · Posted at 20:01:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Or it's because of the massive rates of deaths caused by texting and driving?
[deleted] · -11 points · Posted at 20:21:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"Massive"
Ok.
cpMetis · 2 points · Posted at 21:02:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"Unintentional Injury" is composed primarily of vehicle accidents
Here's just he top reliable google result.
[deleted] · -4 points · Posted at 21:05:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Prove it. Your link did anything but.
cpMetis · 3 points · Posted at 21:23:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The fu.... okay, fine. Take the raw data then.
[deleted] · -1 points · Posted at 21:26:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's funny. In a 90+ page document, "texting and driving" isn't mentioned a single time.
Do better.
cpMetis · 2 points · Posted at 23:15:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Shit. Meant to edit not delete.
I'll just do it here.
The point of the source was never to show the number of deaths caused by texting and driving, it was to show that number as caused by traffic accidents in general. It ties together as texting and driving is one of the causes of many of those accidents.
cpMetis · 1 points · Posted at 23:20:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm trying to find just one, easy to understand paper that shows my point, but at this stage I might as well just recommend the CDC in general.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 01:25:31 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
So you're making a false equivalence. Got it.
cpMetis · 2 points · Posted at 03:08:13 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
"about 18 percent of the drivers were engaged in at least one interior non-driving activity. The most frequent interior non-driving activity was conversation, either with other passengers in the vehicle or on a cell phone, especially among young (age 16 to 25) drivers."
https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/811059
Almost 20% of the 5th most common cause of death is pretty damn significant.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 13:17:45 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
So, not texting and driving tho? Ok. Thanks for proving my point.
coach0512 · 7 points · Posted at 20:04:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Or everyone else is a bad driver, cause they do stupid shit like thinking they can text and drive
[deleted] · -1 points · Posted at 20:22:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Get off the cross, you hero.
ingloriousbaxtr · 4 points · Posted at 20:56:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is a very weird subject to get so defensive about.
I know people text and drive, but most are ashamed of it. I never thought I'd meet someone who actually defends it.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 21:06:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is America, right? I thought we believed in ordered liberty.
Don't tread on me.
ER_nesto · 1 points · Posted at 22:47:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Nope, this is not America, this is the internet, where we don't tolerate assholes.
Asshole (noun):
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 22:51:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm not the one abrogating personal liberty. That's you, ass.
ER_nesto · 3 points · Posted at 23:01:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It is not your personal liberty to destroy the life of another.
How would you feel if I just randomly walked into your house, stabbed your partner to death, and left?
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 23:15:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's the same as sending a text message?
Ok buddy. Whatever you say.
ER_nesto · 1 points · Posted at 23:21:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, it is, you're performing an action you know is likely to result in the death of another human being, just because you can
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 01:24:28 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Invading someone's home, and committing premeditated murder is the same thing as sending a text message?
Ok.
ER_nesto · 2 points · Posted at 10:08:15 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah?
By sending that text, you're accepting that your actions may kill another person.
By stabbing someone, you also accept that your actions may kill them.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 13:17:56 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ok.
ocean365 · 13 points · Posted at 20:03:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Lol literally at the top of the comments ITT
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:21:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ok.
RawRooster · 6 points · Posted at 20:05:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No point in arguing with someone that's going to die/lose the driver license in the next month or so.
thlitherylilthnek · -4 points · Posted at 20:10:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If people can be good at multitasking, and texting and driving is multitasking, then why can't someone be good at it? Or at least better than most others? Would they be good enough to bet their life on it? Or mine? Maybe not. But it's also foolish to not concede that someone might be better at doing the two things at once than someone else. All that being said, I wouldn't do it. But I also can't walk and breathe at the same time....
RawRooster · 5 points · Posted at 20:21:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Driving requires 100% attention. It's not that humans can't multitask, it's that the task can't be multitasked. Texting requires thinking+looking+using the hands. Driving requires thinking+looking+using the hands.
That's why if you drink and drive or talk and drive you are pretty safe. Because drinking doesn't require much thinking or seeing, and talking requires only hearing and some thinking and no hands.
Sorry for the crazy amount of 'thinking'.
thlitherylilthnek · -2 points · Posted at 20:51:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It can be multitasked. It's done everyday by people who may never admit to it but who also don't wreck doing it. It doesn't mean I would recommend setting your cruise control and writing a novel, but it's also clearly not impossible. Is it very unsafe and never ever worth the risk? Absolutely. Do people take that risk and have no immediate negative consequences? You betcha.
KakariBlue · 0 points · Posted at 02:30:51 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's why you can only text and drive with a keypad phone. A smartphone is a death sentence, but T9 (whether it's predictive or not) only requires touching and the thinking time is much less than a full keyboard where your wpm can be double digits.
Still not a good idea, but texting and driving was a lot safer before the iPhone.
[deleted] · -1 points · Posted at 20:22:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I take that as a threat.
fopiecechicken · 5 points · Posted at 20:31:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You're a first class idiot.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 20:34:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Better than an economy grade idiot like you!!! Enjoy the back of the plane, you poor.
fopiecechicken · 2 points · Posted at 20:38:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You mean plane? Who would buy a special seat on a bus? You really are an ignoramus.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 21:09:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What are you talking about?
And it's spelled--Buy****
You really are an ignoramus.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 21:18:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[removed]
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 21:19:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What are you typing about?
[deleted] · -5 points · Posted at 20:25:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
RawRooster · 5 points · Posted at 20:30:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Luck and probably lies.
BodyMindGains · -7 points · Posted at 20:36:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Possibly luck, but why would someone just go on the internet and tell lies?
TBH it's about only using your phone when it's statistically unlikely you need to look at the road.
Hitting a corner? Put your phone down dummy.
RawRooster · 3 points · Posted at 20:50:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Could you tell me when, while driving, you would ever not need to look at the phone? Even at red light you will most likely miss it when it goes green and cause a minor traffic jam.
BodyMindGains · 0 points · Posted at 21:30:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm not your driving tutor boyo. You should have paid attention to my first comment where I explained that I'm a better driver than you are.
RawRooster · 3 points · Posted at 21:47:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You aren't lol. There is a reason why texting and driving is illegal. You do illegal things while driving, you are a worse driver.
BodyMindGains · 0 points · Posted at 22:38:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In bizzarro SJW world where you live perhaps.
Where logic, not even once.
"Illegal = bad." You must be a big fan of the war on drugs.
RawRooster · 1 points · Posted at 06:50:43 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, many laws are retarded, but safety laws are not. Driving laws are there to protect us and they work just fine.
Why not stop following traffic rules because they are so bad, huh?
SketchyBrowser · 3 points · Posted at 20:45:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You can't be a good texter and driver for the same reason a blind person can't be a good driver. Your eyes need to be constantly and consitently looking out the window and gathering information. You can glance at the speedometer, glance at the radio or glance at your passenger mid conversation, but you can't compose a text by glancing at your phone. Just think, how long would it take you to unlock your phone, read a text, send "k" then get reacquainted with your surroundings? 500ms? At 60mph(100kph or 27m/s) that's about 44ft(13.5m) or 3 car lengths. That's a substantial distance you will have travelled blind.
Furthermore, the beauty of texting is that it doesn't require an immediate response to function. It can, and should wait. And if it can't wait, then pull into a driveway, or parking lot (not the side of the road, this is illegal in some places).
Texting and driving is as stupid as driving high or drunk. You are in control of a heavy and unforgiving battering ram. Why for any reason would you willingly do things to give up control to chance? Could you live with yourself if that "k" was responsible for killing someone?
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 21:08:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes, I could live with myself.
And yes, you can compose a text while driving--slight glances, or no look. Like you said, sight glances are allowed.
Get off the cross, you hero.
munchkin1911 · 1 points · Posted at 22:55:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Fucking wanker, get lost.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 23:16:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You're such a hero, bud.
fopiecechicken · -1 points · Posted at 20:29:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I would argue that some people are "good" at texting and driving. It's just that being good at it doesn't decrease the danger to an acceptable point. I guarantee I'm way less likely to get into an accident because of texting while driving than my mother is, I am a better driver, have better reflexes, I'm m better multi-tasker etc. None of that means I should do it though.
Ohgodwatdoplshelp · 231 points · Posted at 16:40:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Fucking 3rd shift. If you work it, you're cursed with an aura that screams to day-walkers "please wake me up at 10am, I'm only 4-5 hours deep into my sleep schedule.
I've had to have multiple sit-downs with my SO and explain to her it's not okay to wake me up at 8 in the fuckin' morning to tell me about things she did yesterday. That's what the evening is for, or lunch if we go out together.
It's unbelievable how disrespectful/not thoughtful people are of your sleep schedule. My boss calling me at 11am and telling me about some work related things, then insinuating I'm lazy because I'm still asleep. Bitch, I go to bed between 6 and 7am, please tell me how I'm lazy by trying to get a normal amount of sleep.
It's such a small issue, but it's so infuriating that people just don't understand 3rd shift means people need to sleep later than "normies"
PaulsRedditUsername · 68 points · Posted at 18:58:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I used to get home from work at about 6:30 when my wife was getting up to go to work. Then she'd go to work and I would go to bed.
She would come home at 5:00 (when I was just getting up) and ask me what I did today. Umm...I slept.
"You slept all day?!?" She never could fathom how I could sleep all day, no matter how often I explained that she slept all night when I was at work.
It eventually got so stressful that I switched to a day job.
TheShadowKick · 13 points · Posted at 23:27:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Should have started asking her what she did with her night when you got home. "You slept all night?!?"
This is how healthy relationships work.
PaulsRedditUsername · 5 points · Posted at 23:42:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oh, yeah. We had that discussion a few times.
Honestly, the hardest part was the off-work hours. While she was doing her morning, pre-work routine: showering, getting dressed, making coffee, I was doing my evening routine of eating pizza, drinking beer and watching tv.
It just got too weird after a while.
Mechasteel · 2 points · Posted at 01:10:39 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
You know, you could have simply told her what you did just before sleeping.
theziess · 36 points · Posted at 19:16:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My family refuses to understand that when I get off work at midnight I don't go straight to bed. I keep asking them, well when you get home at 5 pm do you go straight to bed? No you usually go to bed around 10-11 pm. It takes time to unwind and relax, that's what I'm doing at 4 am.
_ferz · 37 points · Posted at 19:54:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When I used to work at night, I'd come home at 4-5am from work, get a beer, browse news and go to sleep. I ended up with intervention because I drank in the "morning". Mother fuckers it's my "evening" and I want a beer before I go to sleep. Should I be drinking at 9pm before I go to work instead because it fits your preconceived idea?
tantrrick · 19 points · Posted at 19:57:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
hold up, give more details on the intervention thing. Who the hell would set that up?
_ferz · 18 points · Posted at 20:00:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It was more of a scandal at the house rather than actual intervention but it was pretty tense, a lot of yelling and screaming about "my problem" and that I am going to end up like my alcoholic uncle.
theziess · 2 points · Posted at 22:27:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Usually once a week I will go to my mom's office and go out for lunch with her, and she never understands why I only get something small, like an appetizer or a bowl of soup or something. I just woke up, I don't want to eat some crazy elaborate meal, I want breakfast.
TrashMinky · 7 points · Posted at 20:11:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Tried this exact explanation with my SO, so many times. He simply cannot fathom how sleep schedules work unless on a day shift.
ingloriousbaxtr · 10 points · Posted at 21:25:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No offense to your SO, but why did this take more than one discussion?
I understand the first time if you're not used to it and accidentally wake someone up, but why did she need to be told this again?
Ohgodwatdoplshelp · 5 points · Posted at 00:14:45 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Admittedly, there have been a few times where I've woken up fully to facilitate a conversation with her, because there were some serious family issues going on during those times, and it would've been really crappy of me to just rollover and go back to bed after mumbling "tell me later." So me being more "relaxed" about it after those issues had passed led to her waking me up a few times. Just a gentle reminder/quick comment to please let me sleep was all it took for her to realize what she was doing.
Mucl · 11 points · Posted at 19:47:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What I hated the most when I worked 3rd shift was door to door solicitors. I put up a no soliciting sign, kept my car in the garage so it didn't look like anyone was home, at least a couple times a week someone would knock on the door while I was asleep. On it's own probably wouldn't wake me but my dog would not stop barking until I would get up and open the door.
I've gone apeshit at more than a few door to door solicitors in my day. Just standing there in my boxers asking them if they could read using every expletive I could think of.
ninja_jedi · 1 points · Posted at 02:59:37 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
(get rid of the dog...)
Just kidding, love your family member!
TheBlackFlame161 · 5 points · Posted at 19:51:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I get off work at 11pm and don't go to bed until like 2 or 3. I feel ya pal. My roommate does laundry at 10am almost every day.
Upferret · 5 points · Posted at 20:06:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Do what I do, call those people on my break at 3am to discuss things.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 06:20:34 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
How can someone not understand that calling me at 1 pm about (utterly unimportant) work stuff is like me calling you at 10 or 11 pm? I started returning the texts at 3am and the 1pm message stopped :)
ZlPMusic · 237 points · Posted at 17:08:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If someone is older than they're not necessarily right. You have no idea how often people told me that I was wrong because an adult or an older sibling said otherwise.
Kufu1796 · 9 points · Posted at 19:13:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think this is especially true to parents and grandparents. They have their mentality set and aren't willing to change, even when presented with data. I tried to convince my uncle that flying is safer than walking, and he won't even take me seriously. I've done my research bro just cuz it sounds wrong doesn't mean it is wrong.
The flying thing is true btw. How many people die because they walked into traffic or slipped and cracked their necks? Planes very rarely crash, and even in the worse case scenario, there's over 70% survival rate. You can't really factor in hijacks because the plane didn't kill anyone, the idiot pilot purposely flew it into a building.
aarpcard · 8 points · Posted at 19:53:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The difference is the perceived level of control.
If you're gonna be in a plane crash, there's nothing you can do to try and survive.
If you're driving and are about to be in a crash, there's a much bigger chance that you can actively do something to increase your chances of survival.
People ignore your facts because it doesn't do anything to actually address the root of their fear.
While it is true that you're statistically much less likely to die flying than driving, the fear about not having control over the situation is indeed rational.
introspeck · 1 points · Posted at 21:48:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Pretty much. I'm safe on a roller coaster, but I'm terrified, because I'm not in control.
I've ridden a motorcycle for 35 years and so far, just one minor accident. I'm in control and it feels good, but I sure don't kid myself that it's safer than a rollercoaster.
Xuiron · 20 points · Posted at 18:29:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I hate to be the person to do this, but...
then*
Kronos_PRIME · 24 points · Posted at 18:53:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
must be older.
ZlPMusic · 12 points · Posted at 19:04:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I used the correct form, I just forgot a word somehow.
Editing the original now. EDIT: Formatting.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 20:08:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I hate to be the person to do this, but....
he/she instead of they're***
"Someone" is singular (you don't say "someone are...," which means you need to keep using the same verb/noun form.
OnAKaiserRoll · 5 points · Posted at 20:38:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I hate to be that guy, but the idea that singular they is wrong is a 19th century invention that nobody should take seriously. Ever since the time of Shakespeare (and possibly earlier) people have used they in a singular form when they do not need to specify someone's gender.
[deleted] · -1 points · Posted at 20:48:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well, I certainly can't verify or deny that it's a 19th century construct without researching it. I'm just spitting back what I was taught in school and for SAT prep.
I can say that I've never heard or read someone use "they is... (singular form)" in a piece of writing, though.
ZlPMusic · 1 points · Posted at 06:24:32 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Goddamnit.
461weavile · 0 points · Posted at 19:43:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you hate to do it, I'll do it for you.
I was also thinking that maybe they missed "you" and a comma between "than" and "they're" instead of just using "than" instead of "then," but we can't really know unless ZlPMusic fixes it
pudney112 · 8 points · Posted at 19:18:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I had an ex girlfriend that believed everything her father told her, despite him being wrong about nearly everything he said. It was massively detrimental to her life at the time and it took so much effort to get her to not just blindly believe what he was saying but instead, do her own research about things.
ZlPMusic · 1 points · Posted at 19:31:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Damn, what did her father tell her that made her life as miserable as you say?
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:49:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"I never loved you."
slinkingsloth69 · 5 points · Posted at 19:35:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Similarly, if someone is older than you, that does not demand your respect of that person. Respect goes both ways.
justletmepostalready · 1 points · Posted at 00:32:47 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I never understood the whole "respect your elders" thing
ZlPMusic · 1 points · Posted at 06:31:52 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't know how the phrase "Respect your elders" became a thing because you're also told to respect those younger than you. It should just be "Respect everybody".
aarpcard · 4 points · Posted at 19:47:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
At the same time I don't automatically discount my elder's advice. I have to acknowledge the fact that they have had at least twice the amount of time to think about things that I have had so it's very possible they may have a more realistic viewpoint on topics than I do.
If I hear something that I initially find irrational, instead of immediately writing them off as bigots or uniformed, I'll pick their brain on why they have that view point. Usually it ends up being irrational, but occasionally their reasoning is sound and I've gained a new perspective that I otherwise would have spent years getting to by myself.
introspeck · 2 points · Posted at 22:06:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm almost 60. It's true, I've seen a lot of "great ideas" come and go, some of which stood the test of time, others which didn't.
For me, the most valuable discovery was that most of what I thought I knew, was bullshit, or mostly true at one time but now obsolete, or implanted in my mind by marketers/authority figures/respected elders who either didn't have it right themselves, or had their own agenda which I didn't recognize at the time.
But you have to stretch your mind and be comfortable with uncertainty to get to that point. Plenty of people my age just settled in with Fox News or the New York Times or the Wall Street Journal and now think they know more than they ever did before. Sigh.
ZlPMusic · 2 points · Posted at 06:28:07 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's true. I never said that they're never right, just that I hate when people use the logic, "I'm older than you so everything that you say that I disagree with is automatically wrong".
unusedgeneric · 2 points · Posted at 20:09:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There was this dude that lived in the apartment opposite mine. He was 25 years older than me. I work in film, top tier kind of stuff. He was a professional photographer (or so he said) he was occasionally at best paid for his work. He always wanted to give me advice, trying to badly explain technical things to me, that I had a very good understanding of, and in truth his ramblings just demonstrated his complete lack of understanding. But as he was older than me, he firmly believed he knew more than me, contrary to all the actual evidence. It drove me crazy. He also made super pervy comments about my gf which didn't help. Rant over.
Krung_Bungus · 2 points · Posted at 20:12:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Its actually impossible to discuss anything with my dad because of this. Every time I disagree with him its because I'm too young and haven't had the time and wisdom to fully blossom into the radical conservative I will eventually become.
I'm fucking 30.
soulsista12 · 1 points · Posted at 19:42:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
yes, just this year in my late 20s I am realizing that just because someone is older than me, doesn't mean they are mature or right. when i was a kid I looked up to all adults, now i realize that a lot of them are irresponsible pieces of shit
cpMetis · 1 points · Posted at 20:00:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
During the ---- election, I tried to way in on a conversation...
"We don't care. You're just an ignorant child."
Ass. I'm not old enough to vote like you, but I'm still less than 2 years younger than you. My age doesn't make my opinion invalid. And, hell, you just said you didn't know much about [topic being discussed].
dblmjr_loser · 1 points · Posted at 20:04:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But given the longer amount of time to accumulate data they are more likely to be right about a given topic right?
ZlPMusic · 0 points · Posted at 06:24:17 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, but that isn't necessarily true for things that have an answer easily verifiable. Once, I had a friend who was convinced that Winston Churchill was the Prime Minister during WW1 because his brother said so. I showed him evidence that he wasn't but he firmly believed it. It's something I can easily check and prove so your logic doesn't always apply.
Besides, if two people were given the same amount of time to work out some problem then one being older won't make a difference.
introspeck · 1 points · Posted at 22:00:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm almost 60 and I am now damn sure that age does not "bring wisdom". At best, you've stayed alive because you made a preponderance of not-disastrous decisions. I've learned some things, and more importantly, I've learned that a lot of what I thought I knew, was bullshit. But I sure wouldn't go so far as to call it "wisdom". I don't dare presume to advise my adult children on how to live their lives. If they have a question, I will answer, yet will caution them that it's mostly based on my own life experience and growing up in a different era, so take it FWIW. Anyway, it seems to me that we all have to make our own mistakes to truly learn the lessons.
One of my favorite quotes by a scientist (paraphrased): "Science advances one funeral at a time."
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 06:24:32 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
The worst part is when you start looking into the lifestyles and attitudes of many of our grandparents or parents who came up in the 50's. It is like they single-handedly forgot all of the good shit their recent ancestors had figured out in favour of processed food and fake wood.
TheUnchosenWon · 1 points · Posted at 19:29:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
r/teenagerproblems
ZlPMusic · 1 points · Posted at 19:32:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I used past tense. Not a teen.
OnAKaiserRoll · -5 points · Posted at 19:47:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
/r/iamverysmart
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:48:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In the digital age I would consider older people some of the least knowledgeable on most topics. I remember fighting my mom on something about the moon, eventually we got into a yelling match and I printed something and read it to her only to still be told i was wrong.
ZlPMusic · 0 points · Posted at 06:26:14 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's funny how the same generation who got a man on the moon don't understand how modern technology works.
sarcasm_is_love · 2441 points · Posted at 14:23:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you consume fewer calories than you burn off, you will lose weight.
missasia7 · 475 points · Posted at 15:41:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I know that this will sound really stupid. I still don't know how to calculate calories burned. I've tried to google it but they use words and abbreviations that I don't know. I am looking to lose about 70lbs but calories are a mystery to me.
poo-boys-united · 906 points · Posted at 15:46:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
focus more on your diet than what you're burning. Get MyFitnessPal and input your current weight and your target weight and how much you want to lose per week. You then input everything you eat every day and it will count the calories for you. If you stick to it, your weight will drop consistently. Adding exercise into it will simply speed up the process.
missasia7 · 332 points · Posted at 15:50:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Okay. Thank you so much. I just downloaded the app.
poo-boys-united · 204 points · Posted at 15:54:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No worries! Once you start using it for a period of time you'll get a much better feel for what calories/protein/carbs/fat are in what foods and you'll probably find it a lot easier than you think to lose weight. A Deficit of just 500 calories a day will probably have you dropping a pound a week. Add exercise into the equation and you'll speed that up.
missasia7 · 108 points · Posted at 16:00:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sounds great. I'm excited. I'm going to start calculating everything. Even chewing gum. I'm also going to join a gym.
ranatalus · 52 points · Posted at 17:55:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Three pieces of advice to offer you:
1) Sometimes, you're going to try to put something into your food diary that doesn't have a perfect match. Maybe it's dinner a friend cooked, or something you got at a restaurant. Don't sweat it. Find something close enough, and use that.
2) What you usually do is more important than what you sometimes do. If you're setting a goal of, say, 1500 calories every day, but on Sunday you have dinner with friends and end up at 2100, that's ok! Don't beat yourself up over it, or decide that your mistake is undoing all your other hard work.
3) Dieting is pretty much the ultimate "your mileage may vary" activity. I tried limiting daily intake, but that didn't work for me. What did work was the Fast diet (2 days a week of aggressive dieting, normal eating the rest of the week). A coworker couldn't manage the Fast diet, but alternate-day fasting worked miracles for him. Another friend tried vegetarianism (and somehow gained weight), but was able to get in better shape on a paleo diet. It may take some experimenting for you to find a diet/exercise regiment that gets results AND you enjoy doing. You just have to find it.
Vurmalkin · 2 points · Posted at 21:16:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This precisely! I really like what Jeff Cavaliere says about dieting, and others prob say the same shit, but I haven't heard or watch them. A diet will never stick, you have to change something in your lifestyle that you can do for the next few years so your change is long term. I have 3 young kids, a job, college, work out, sleep to little, etc. I can't eat to little on 9/10 days because I will feel like shit. The one thing that really works for me is 2 big meals a day, one somewhere in the morning, the other with the family around dinner. And then add fruits etc as snacks. I basically try to eat as healthy as I can and just have 2 dinners a day, within my calories. I feel awesome and I am getting leaner.
Oh and I refuse to not take part in family stuff, so the kids want some greasy fries every now and then? I am in there taking what is mine. Just gotta hit the gym harder the next few days.
So yeah, just fool around with several different things until you find yours and even then keep looking around.
jspost · 2 points · Posted at 00:12:15 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
You're so spot on with this it's uncanny. I've dropped a lot of weight like this. It's sustainable for me because I don't stress over one bad meal or one bad day. I always tell people that the best diet is the one you are able to stick with.
poo-boys-united · 30 points · Posted at 16:03:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Good for you :) also, it might sound daunting but you should really look into a weight lifting program as well as a little cardio. Weight lifting will not automatically make you muscular, that requires eating more calories than you're burning, but it burns more calories than cardio because your muscles have to repair and this means you continue to burn calories even after your workout.
Best of luck to you :)
[deleted] · 12 points · Posted at 17:06:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Does that app also help with gaining weight? Ive been trying to gain some weight but idk how to go around it
poo-boys-united · 15 points · Posted at 17:13:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yup! I am currently using it for that reason. Putting on about a pound of muscle per week so far. It doesn't take into account calories actually burned during weight lifting session so you'll need to account for that on top but once you get used to eating the same amount/same macro split every week and stick to a work out routine for several weeks you'll start to know what your body needs and tailor it yourself. Highly recommend it for gaining weight.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 17:17:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Awesome, thanks dude Imma give it a go!
poo-boys-united · 1 points · Posted at 17:20:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You're welcome, good luck to you! Another thing, get yourself some kitchen scales and measuring cups if you don't have them. It's tedious measuring out all your food but you'll become much better at "eyeballing" it if you do stick to measuring for a while. Also, oatmeal for breakfast! Definitely helped me pack on the lbs.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 17:53:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'll get to that then, sounds like a good idea to get into measuring properly. Thanks again dude!
cannibalpig · 1 points · Posted at 18:20:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Also peanut butter. Best bulking food
poo-boys-united · 1 points · Posted at 18:29:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
yeah it is a good one, i tend to stick to raw almonds because they're slightly healthier but i have heard that a spoonfull or 2 of peanut butter is great for bulking.
DialMMM · 1 points · Posted at 20:39:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No. Don't listen to the guy that said "Yup!" The only way it helps with gaining is tracking consumption and weight. For an app that has "fitness" in it's name, it is surprisingly bad at tracking weight-lifting activities, which are the most effective for gaining muscle mass. Surprisingly, it even teases you if you lose weight ("You lost 2 pounds!"), a testament to its true purpose, weight loss.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:42:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Where did I say I wanted to use it for weight lifting? Fitness doesn't only mean lifing weights and getting jacked dude. I just want to get out of the underweight level of weight into a healthy(fit, see what I did there?) weight. What is the point in antagonising him?
DialMMM · 1 points · Posted at 20:55:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You said you wanted to gain weight, and lifting weights is the most efficient way to gain muscle. Are you intending to gain fat instead?
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 21:16:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You do know you need fat to gain muscles right? My body fat % is close to nonexistent
DialMMM · 1 points · Posted at 21:34:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You don't need to gain fat to gain muscle, but it is certainly easier to gain both and cut than to just gain muscle. Either way, myfitnesspal wasn't designed for those looking to gain, and it sucks for tracking activities relevant to gaining, other than consumption.
[deleted] · 14 points · Posted at 18:03:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
and remember not all calories are created equal. If you have too much sugar it prompts an insulin response and you'll feel hungry again sooner. "A calorie is a calorie is a calorie" makes sense from a First Rule of Thermodynamics point of view, but not in a healthy diet and nutrition regime point of view.
Sugar is in everything, and it's the only thing on the Nutrition Facts that doesn't have the percentage daily value. You need 65 grams of sugar a day, and some stuff tricks you into eating almost half that amount before noon time. I saw a Yogurt that was "Chocolate and Pralines"-- basically pudding sold as yogurt, one of those little single-serve cups had 20g sugar. Once you reduce it for over a week even bread seems sweet.
edit: update - 26 days later. Controlling the sugar fixed a lot of troubles, eating bread now puts me to sleep! I just crash on bread/carbs if I have too many. Weird.
tl;dr - Food is bad for you.
whos_to_know · 4 points · Posted at 19:02:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Thanks for this info! I wasn't aware of this at all.
[deleted] · 4 points · Posted at 19:23:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
it's the food companies' job to sell you food, not to make you healthy. Notice there are no commercials telling us to drink water and eat veggies.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 20:14:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Aquafina actually does a pretty great commercial about this.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 21:53:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
that guy smashing out the window, that was really good. Iconoclastic AF.
Acupriest · 1 points · Posted at 19:52:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Someone has never seen the Kaiser Permanente ads in California.
Gregory_D64 · 3 points · Posted at 20:29:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sugar is your biggest enemy when it comes to weight loss/healthy eating. I'd rather each a big fatty piece of steak (with a giant pile of veggies) than one slice of pie.
Also, simple carbs basically turn into sugar when eaten, so watch out for white breads, chips, and other carby stuff. Don't worry too much about potatoes.
Meal prepping can make your life so much easier, give you more energy, reduce stress, and help you eat healthy. If you want a quick and easy guide to meal prep, shoot me a PM.
ThaChippa · 2 points · Posted at 20:29:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Don't dance with the Devil if you cant take hot hooves on yer feet.
cake_line · 4 points · Posted at 18:21:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I won't argue that your muscles have to recover more after weight lifting, but as a distance runner who is very sore after 22 miles yesterday, don't my muscles have to repair themselves quite a bit as well?
poo-boys-united · 2 points · Posted at 18:29:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes that's true. I'll be honest i don't know a lot, if any, of the science of recovering from distance running. However it stands to reason that they recover in a different way. When weight lifting, your muscles try to repair bigger so they have greater capacity for strength. When endurance running they recover for endurance. I don't know how that differs really but it could.
Also running 22 miles is very different from a standard cardio session. I was more comparing like an hour of steady state cardio to an hour of weight lifting.
Well done for running htat far though, i couldn't do it haha
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:22:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes. Any kind of expenditure on your body that you must "push" yourself to complete will cause myofibers (aka muscle cells) to break down and will result in your muscles needing to rebuild those fibers. Simply put, there are two types of muscle cells (well, more than 2, but to keep it simple)- fast and slow. Slow-type help with endurance (ie 22 mile run), fast-type help with bursts of energy (ie sprints, few but high weight reps for weight lifting). So your muscles are dedicating more fibers as slow-type due to the endurance training when rebuilding the muscle.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:36:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's actually more complex than that.
First, it's a great idea to exercise in any capacity (the best way, when starting, is to do what's fun to build a habit). This is also not necessarily as a means to lose weight (that starts in the kitchen), but as a way to prevent loss of muscle.
Because muscle is great for breaking down to use as energy by the body. Exercise, however, will slow or prevent this- if you're using those muscles then it isn't in your bodies' interest to break them down.
Secondarily, your muscles need to repair whether or not you've done cardio or weight lifting. Both result in myofibers (muscle cells that make up muscle) breaking down and getting repaired- thus you would continue to burn calories after the workout in either case. Also, you can have a beast of a workout and not be sore- this doesn't mean your muscles are not being repaired.
All that being said, a tip for starting is to go for endurance exercises (whether cardio or weight lifting). There's been some research to show that after doing short, high intensity workouts, despite hormone signalling your body is not hungry, people often feel hungry right after. With endurance work outs it's been shown that people don't feel hungry for a time after. Of course, it can be different for everyone. It's really best to find something enjoyable or at least that isn't horrible, since it's easier to keep doing it if it's fun.
poo-boys-united · 1 points · Posted at 20:41:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The muscle repair is different depending on the exercise though. When you lift weights your muscles try to repair bigger and stronger and require more energy to do so. Endurance training requires that they repair for more endurance. I also didn't mention anything about pain after a workout. That usually happens when you first start out/start a new regime but fades as your body gets used to recovery.
Your point about finding something enjoyable is great advice though. It's way easier to motivate yourself to be active if it's something you enjoy.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 22:00:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It IS different, where-in you have myofibers that are either dedicated to "endurance" or "fast/bursts" type moves (slow-twitch or fast-twitch), but muscle repair (and muscle building) occurs with both. Lifting weights may result in larger muscles, but that's not to say that cardio can't build muscle. You also haven't clarified cardio- where jogging will give you completely different results than swimming, etc.
I was just trying to give the op more info, where focusing on weight-lifting isn't the be-all, end-all, and where cardio does still result in muscle repair and rebuilding (and thereby calorie consumption).
poo-boys-united · 1 points · Posted at 22:10:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah you are right. The best approach is definitely a balance of both types of exercise.
ozmethod · 1 points · Posted at 18:19:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
there's some pretty good evidence that the afterburn effect you're speaking of is fairly minute. As in, less additional calories burned than an additional 5 minutes of cardio would have done. Weightlifting is always a good part of any exercise plan, but if weight loss is goal #1, emphasize cardio.
poo-boys-united · 5 points · Posted at 18:32:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
it has a compound effect though, more muscles means faster metabolism. Difficult to really prove though because it's very dependent on intensity of cardio. IF you're doing 5 more minutes of HIIT then you're probably right, but 5 minutes of light jogging, i'm not sure it's the case.
A mixture of both weights and cardio is definitely the most effect method for weight loss in terms of exercise. But if weight loss is really your goal, emphasize your diet.
ozmethod · 3 points · Posted at 18:54:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes, it should be cleanly stated that diet absolutely, positively, 100% comes first.
Assuming you've got that in order though, and your goal is weight loss, cardio is king. The metabolism gain takes quite a while to be meaningful, an d in the meantime you could have burned a magnitude higher number of calories through medium intensity cardio
RiotMoose · 1 points · Posted at 20:35:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My mother-in-law is a nurse and always says "You can't outrun a bad diet"
Weight loss is more diet dependent than exercise dependent. Work out food first, add exercise later.
ozmethod · 1 points · Posted at 20:54:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"You can't outwork your fork" is one of my favorites.
tivooo · -5 points · Posted at 16:51:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
souce? this sounds wrong... at most negligible.
roughfuck · 7 points · Posted at 16:53:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What they probably mean is that building muscle increases your metabolism, so you passively burn more calories
poo-boys-united · 4 points · Posted at 17:10:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Exactly
poo-boys-united · 4 points · Posted at 16:55:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just google weight lifting vs cardio and read anything. It's not wrong. I mean it's generalised. An hour long weights session will not burn more calories than running a marathon.
[deleted] · 9 points · Posted at 17:34:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Dont go overboard or you'll overwhelm yourself and give up. Chewing gum wont help other than to stave off hunger pangs. Just use the app, don't go over the limit, and you'll drop the weight.
Mahhrat · 6 points · Posted at 18:18:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Hey mate, you're on a great path and best of luck to you.
One tip though, don't chew gum if you can help it. Chewing stimulates your gut to expect food and makes you hungry.
As you cut calories you'll get hungry anyway. Gum often makes it worse.
Source: lost about 100 lbs 2 years ago.
Goyu · 7 points · Posted at 19:08:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
As a followup to u/poo-boys-united's comment, I encourage starting slow. I lost about 30 pounds about a year and a half ago, and got overexcited jumping into the fitness game, and predictably, I injured myself.
If you haven't been very physically active for a long time, there's a lot of stuff your body needs to do. It's not just your bones and muscles getting stronger, it's also your brain needing to remember the correct range of motion for exercises you haven't done in a long time, and it's easy to get hurt in a moment of inattention or over the course of weeks by doing an exercise with bad form.
I recommend that you start slow, by going on walks every day. I walked to the store, about a mile away and back, pretty much every day. Didn't matter if I didn't really need anything, I'd walk to the store and buy a bottle of water or lemons or something, whatever, and then back. For strength exercises, you could do squats and lunges, no need for weights.
After a few weeks, you could try jogging or using an eliptical machine, which is low impact so no shin splints and you can start to rebuild foundational strength in your legs and core as well as retraining your brain to move your body in balance. I like to bring my tablet and watch an episode of something while I am on the eliptical. And then maybe some burpees. Burpees, by the way, are physically humiliating when you are out of shape. It's just a series of simple movements but by the third or fourth one, you're miserable. That's ok, they get easier. Once you're feeling more confident with squats/lunges/burpess/pushups, then start looking at weightlifting, your odds of an injury will be much lower.
TL;DR: Start slow, progress through low impact stuff like walking/squats and move to more intense stuff like running/burpees before trying weight, to avoid injury.
poo-boys-united · 1 points · Posted at 19:11:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Very good advice. My apologies, i neglected to mention anything like that. It's important to not start by trying to do long runs on the treadmill if you are particularly overweight (no offense intended) as this could be very damaging to your knees.
-ad-as- · 3 points · Posted at 18:19:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Good luck! Do your best and don't give up!
RunInCirclesQuickly · 3 points · Posted at 18:26:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just in case you start feeling burned out, drop the cardio and/or weight lifting before you give up on the diet. You can drop the weight by just changing your diet, no gym needed.
catsandglutes · 3 points · Posted at 18:29:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Hey you should check out /r/xxfitness. It's a really neat subreddit and it really helped me start my "fitness journey". Went from never visiting a gym evernever in my life to a regular Gym-goer. It also has some beginner-friendly programs to choose from if you are interested.
square--one · 1 points · Posted at 19:50:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Great user name!
Thompy · 3 points · Posted at 18:55:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm happy to read this, good on you! And I hope you train hard and do well in aiming for your goals :)
kenriko · 2 points · Posted at 18:48:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No cheating. 70 Weeks and you will have that goal.
Zreaz · 2 points · Posted at 18:53:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Good luck friend = )
JennyFromTheBlock79 · 1 points · Posted at 19:10:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Also bear in mind its not an exact science.
If you find you are losing weight faster or slower than it says you should adjust accordingly.
Also be accurate and consistent with your tracking. Don't take the lowest calorie option for a food knowing it doesn't really represent what you ate ( was at a huge Apple or an unusually big glass of wine?)
spankingasupermodel · 1 points · Posted at 19:26:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Chew sugar free gum.
JohniiMagii · 1 points · Posted at 19:28:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Also check out r/loseit, I hear they're really encouraging! If you don't like MyFitnessPal, another calorie counter is also called LoseIt, unrelated to the sub.
And when you go to the gym, some people might be judgemental. Just remember, you're there for you, and you're the one who is doing something impressive: working to change your life. It's admirable to try for such a large change.
mh402010 · 1 points · Posted at 19:32:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
visit the wonderful people at r/1200isplenty and r/loseit. they're a big help.
also, while you're at it, r/getmotivated is nice.
square--one · 1 points · Posted at 19:48:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Get a food scale, it will help with counting - people are often surprised by how much bigger something like a regular chicken breast or a spoon of peanut butter is compared to a "serving size"
OrdoExterminatus · 1 points · Posted at 19:52:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Way to get motivated! I'm on my own weight-loss journey as well. I also highly recommend heading over to /r/loseit as a great way to keep yourself accountable and motivated. They are a great group of people and happy to help answer any questions you have, from the most basic to the most technical.
sigurbjorn1 · 1 points · Posted at 19:58:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Awww man! This guy is gonna make all kinds of gains. Pick up heavy things and put them down my dude. Just don't join planet fitness, they don't have barbells in that bitch.
Also, just a little advice. 1 to 2 lbs lost a week is actually going at a pretty good clip. That's a good rate of loss, that's all ya need.
scaremenow · 1 points · Posted at 19:59:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Chewing the same gum peice is good mouth exercise, bether than none. Chose a less caloric brand and off you go!
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:15:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Also, there is a sub here /r/loseit that is good for support/advice if you're into that sort of thing.
diablo_man · 1 points · Posted at 22:29:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
One bit of advice, dont be too ambitious at first, dont bite off more than you can chew.
Its better to start with realistic goals and stick to them than go whole hog and burn out on it after a week. You can always increase what you do later once you get the right habits built up.
Themalster · 2 points · Posted at 17:57:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
on top of that, eat a fuck load of fiber.
you will have terrible terrible meatfarts for a little while.
but then you stop needing to have to wipe a marker, and some of your poops are one wipe wonders.
poo-boys-united · 1 points · Posted at 18:03:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
i'm currently bulking and the vast amount of protein means i have no one wipe wonders :( god i miss the one wipe wonders.
Themalster · 2 points · Posted at 18:10:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
good gains to you then. You clean bulking or dirty bulking?
poo-boys-united · 2 points · Posted at 18:13:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
hah thanks. Eh fairly clean. I mean i'm eating about 3500 calories a day and i'm 175lbs but i'm eating all clean foods. Lets say clean bulking with dirty quantities haha.
Themalster · 1 points · Posted at 18:48:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
cool stuff man. whats your goal? 200?
poo-boys-united · 1 points · Posted at 18:55:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Nah i'm aiming for 185 at the moment then i'll reassess. Problem is i've had chicken leg syndrome my whole life so i'm not sure what i'll look like at 185 now i've switched my focus to include 2 leg days a week. I used to be 180 but it all went on my upper body and i was pretty big so i'm thinking 185/190 with proportionate legs will be perfect for me.
Themalster · 1 points · Posted at 18:59:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
kill it then!
Trogdorocks · 2 points · Posted at 18:58:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How much weight you lose varies on the composition of your diet, mainly how it affects your insulin levels. You'll want to cut out all added sugars and try to reduce the amount of carbs you eat for the most efficient weight loss.
poo-boys-united · 1 points · Posted at 19:02:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
True but for people starting out, calories are the most important thing to watch. It can be very daunting and offputting for people to try to take into account all the different macros and such. I'd recommend starting out just making sure you have the right calorie deficit before moving on to adjusting your macro split.
Trogdorocks · 2 points · Posted at 19:06:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I agree, and myfitnesspal makes it easy to track macros as well, once you want to start.
poo-boys-united · 1 points · Posted at 19:07:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
yeah it is great for that. such a helpful app.
badgerfrance · 2 points · Posted at 19:36:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm being a little pedantic here but this isn't quite right. The 500 calorie per day figure is for burning a pound of fat, which is the desired goal. But going too far beyond that deficit, depending on body composition, will prompt your body to burn more muscle along the way (the actual point at which this happens depends on your body makeup and other factors, but a deficit of 500 is generally the mark to aim for).
The way you've phrased your response makes it sound like being at a 500 calorie deficit and adding exercise TO that deficit will cause you to lose more fat. But going too far to the extreme may prompt your body to think it's starving, and you'll lose your muscle mass.
A 500 calorie deficit is a great goal, but assume exercise as a part of the deficit, not as something additional to speed the process along. A large component of healthy weight loss is patience!
poo-boys-united · 2 points · Posted at 19:39:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah i mean if you have enough fat to burn your body generally won't go to burning muscle right away. Particularly if you're getting enough protein in your diet. But i do get your point. You definitely don't want to be having a 1500 calorie deficit.
MauPow · 1 points · Posted at 21:08:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I found it hard to track when you cook everything from scratch and don't really follow a recipe, just throw stuff from the garden in there. Adding all the individual ingredients, portion sizes, etc gets to be a hassle. Any tips?
poo-boys-united · 1 points · Posted at 21:11:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
it is a hassle tbh but as long as you measure out accurately the individual ingredients and enter them into the app it should be easier next time as it stores those measurements.
Or you can even create meals in the app i think so if you measure out all the ingredients and add them to a meal you've created you can just use that meal again rather than individually adding everything.
jfm2143 · 12 points · Posted at 17:11:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Also go check out /r/loseit.
Great community.
With their help, and tracking calories with myfitnesspal I lost 60 pounds without any exercise. It's totally doable. I wish I did it years ago, now I just encourage others to start the journey too.
SchpartyOn · 5 points · Posted at 16:55:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I did this with a similar app (LoseIt!). Had no idea how to count calories beforehand but the app does it all. I input all my food (stuck to the calorie budget they gave me) and worked out. I'm down ~30lbs since the beginning of April. First time I am under 200lbs in 11 years.
poo-boys-united · 1 points · Posted at 17:31:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Congrats! that's such a huge achievement! Keep at it!
SchpartyOn · 2 points · Posted at 19:35:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Thanks! Still going. I'm kind of addicted to working out now so it's nice that that habit has been created.
anniemg01 · 3 points · Posted at 17:40:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This. It's really annoying, but it works (unless there is something medical going on). Get a scale and really use it to portion. Also, it saves things you usually eat so that you can add them quickly. Good luck! I lost all my baby weight using it and now I'm trying that again.
rebel_wo_a_clause · 2 points · Posted at 17:28:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I second the app. Does a nice job of giving you a goal.
TIPS: Keep in mind that missing your goal 1 day shouldn't be a huge disappointment, it's more about overall cals in/cals out per week. Take it slow to start and gradually change your portioning and the kinds of food you eat. Your stomach / body will adjust to the reduction in cals; you won't feel hungry after every meal forever. It takes time, keep at it. Goodluck! :)
Turts_McGurts · 2 points · Posted at 17:59:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A small tip: moat of these apps will ask you for your activity level. Underestimate how active you are unless you are 100% sure. The difference of 100-200 calories can be the difference.
majinspy · 2 points · Posted at 18:03:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I've lost over 90 pounds with myfitnesspal.com. I also count calories burned at the gym. Most cardio machines output an estimate.
Good luck!
TroleOmid · 2 points · Posted at 18:10:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Fuck yeah good luck! Keep at it and never miss entering in a food!
McBenzzy · 2 points · Posted at 18:13:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Good luck with your weight loss!
snickles19 · 2 points · Posted at 18:16:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
join the subreddit too! good community. also /r/loseit
55 days in, 33 lbs down
Miss_Maia · 2 points · Posted at 18:34:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Keep with it. It's hard and almost daunting to log every single meal but it's 100% worth taking the 3 mins to measure out the calories.
LasciviousSycophant · 2 points · Posted at 19:58:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Woohoo! Another one! If you don't cheat, you are going to lose so much weight.
I recommend getting a fitness tracker, too.
Good luck!
kapxis · 1 points · Posted at 17:25:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's good advice, you'll learn as you use the app also. Also as an FYI 1 lb of fat = approx 3500 calories.
Kepui · 1 points · Posted at 17:38:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
MyFitnessPal helped me lose over 50lbs over the course of about 5 months. It'll even let you scan the barcodes on things to track them; it's great. The weight didn't fly off me but it felt like healthy weight loss and it taught me where a huge number of my calories were coming from, aka I drink a lot less soda now.
QueenAlucia · 1 points · Posted at 17:51:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
/r/loseit really helped me out to lose weight :)
heili · 1 points · Posted at 18:14:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Use a scale, measure all solids in grams, and confirm that what you're looking at in MyFitnessPal's database is actually accurate.
super_ninja_robot · 1 points · Posted at 18:14:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Pro-tip: use the barcode scanner on the app to make sure you're logging the correct data
PaulTheMerc · 1 points · Posted at 18:32:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
there's a few subs you might get some use out of:
/r/loseit -weight loss
/r/EatCheapAndHealthy -this can help you save money, cook
/r/MealPrepSunday -It is easier to portion control 1x a week vs everyday.
peteybird22 · 1 points · Posted at 18:38:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
FYI, myfitnesspal can be really inaccurate about calorie needs, typically too low. Here is why/how: https://www.reddit.com/r/xxfitness/wiki/mfp_custom_goals
ReverendDizzle · 1 points · Posted at 19:01:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Truly, weight loss is a diet game not an exercise game.
To put this in perspective: to burn off the calories in a single M&M candy you need to talk about the length of a football field. To burn the calories in a Snickers bar you need to walk a couple miles.
By simply not eating the Snickers bar you save yourself from having to put in significant extra exertion that day to balance out your intake with your level of activity.
Better yet if you don't eat the junk calories and you still walk the extra miles, you come closer (or actually begin) to run a calorie deficit.
robforce · 1 points · Posted at 19:03:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Keep in mind of other factors too. Like if your metabolism is veeeeery slow then you will need to consume even less calories than advised.
Theres more factors such as over/underactive thyroids etc.
But in general - make sure you start eating at regular small intervals of around 2 hours to make your body get the food through constantly and speed up your metabolism and stick to the diet/fitness plan.
If you find yourself never hungry, consult a specialist. If you are always hungry, make sure to stop yourself and eat at regular intervals anyway. Except if you exercise quite a bit - meal straight after.
And try to exercise every 3 days AT LEAST. Your body needs to move, and you will feel great.
Hope that helps a bit. It helped me to lose over 20 lbs.
Mycoe · 1 points · Posted at 19:44:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That part about finding yourself always hungry, I'd also add try going for a drink of water as sometimes it's just that you're actually thirsty, sometimes it even helps fill you up a little. Another thing I do personally thanks to a tip on /r/loseit is always wait at least 30 minutes after a meal before deciding if I want any more. The vast majority of the time I don't.
As a separate tip, I've found cutting out carbohydrates has sped the process up greatly. No more bread in the house, popcorn instead of crisps as a snack, sweet potato instead of normal if I absolutely have to have some chips, you get the idea. I try to stick to under 100g of them a day which is easier than I thought, but I must have been eating around 300+ before.
ThaChippa · 1 points · Posted at 19:44:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My mudder always said "Don't queer off with your friends, Chip!" I'm like, "We're not ma, we're teaching each other how to kiss!"
send_me_newds · 1 points · Posted at 19:45:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
1) Measure your food. Ideally by weight but it's the US and most things are by volume.
2) Don't eat back exercise calories - mostly because it grossly overestimates. I have a friend who logs "vacuuming - 30 mins - 700 calories burned" - guess who is not losing weight...
tojoso · 1 points · Posted at 20:04:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Make sure to update your weight at least once per week, if not once per day. And try to be consistent with time of day, ie right after you go to the bathroom every morning. Seeing the consistent progress is a great motivator for those times when having a cheeseburger or ice cream is oh so tempting. And have realistic expectations. You should lose 1 lb per week for every 500 calorie daily deficit.
Deraek · 1 points · Posted at 20:13:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Make sure you get a food scale and some measuring cups. You can get decent ones for like $10.
ChicagoB5 · 1 points · Posted at 20:28:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Another way to do this would be to look up a "TDEE" calculator and answer the questions honestly - this will get you how many calories you need to stay at your current weight. Now subtract 200-500 calories from that and eat that much, recalculate every 10 lbs or so.
theislandisalie · 1 points · Posted at 21:21:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I would also recommend not "eating back" calories. Meaning if you exercise that's awesome, but don't log it in MFP and then eat additional calories because your burned some. The counts for exercising are so inaccurate for what you burn that you might gain weight by doing it (been there, seen that).
Intoital · 1 points · Posted at 22:36:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I like Lose it! Better. But it's the difference between apple and android, just a different hammer to drive the same nail.
tanvscullen · 1 points · Posted at 00:05:15 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Come join us on r/loseit for some friends and support with all of your questions :)
Aiognim · 1 points · Posted at 00:32:20 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Good luck. It gets way easier to eat less over time. Your stomach (like the organ that processes food, not what we call the torso that you are trying to slim down.) literally shrinks after a couple of weeks of eating less.
Also, like the parent comment said, its as simple as eating less energy than you spend, so your body can't replenish the fat cells you spend. You also may lose weight and not notice/see it because it could be from you "spending" fat cells within your body (I mean next to your organs, as opposed to the fat on your stomach that is under your skin, but on the outside of your ab muscles.) Don't let that discourage you. It is happening whether you can see it or not, you just have to keep at it.
To add to that, you can't "spot burn" fat. Your body takes energy from fat cells where ever it wants to. You can't tell it where to grab from. You can't to crunches to get rid of stomach fat. It doesn't work like that. Fat is extra gas tanks stuck on all sides of your body. You don't choose which one goes into the fuel tank.
I started a long time ago and one of the best resources was this absolutely hideous website full of great info.
Also reddit has a ton of support and info, and also about the same amount misinformation.
Check into everything. Even the things I said in this post. Don't just hear words, find out why they are said.
Again, good luck.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 06:22:00 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
For a quick super charge pick out the WORST things that you eat (probably sugary drinks like juice or pop and take out food) and cut them out or down.
Cryssw · 1 points · Posted at 17:18:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Keep in mind however that my fitness pal can gauge very low and you might be in too much of a deficit.
My favourite calculator is Katy Hearns. Google Katy Hearn fit calculator and it will link you. It will break down your macronutrients if you want, but you don't have to follow that if you aren't looking for very specific results like muscle retention/gain etc. Then input that number into my fitness pal instead. That's what I had a friend doing while I was strictly focused on my macronutrients and she lost almost as much as I did (I lost 20lbs while getting a little newbie muscle gain which was my goal) and she was just tracking.
Also, for anything that's not very low in calories it's smart to weigh your portions. Most people automatically over portion and end up consuming 100-200 calories a day with things like oatmeal, peanut butter, etc. :) so if you feel like you're not losing what you want but you're being honest with what you're eating that could be hindering it a little. Just an FYI for down the road.
Edit: misspellings.
poo-boys-united · 1 points · Posted at 17:33:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Weighing your portions is super important, especially at the beginning. Like you say, particularly for things like oatmeal if you're having it with whole milk. I think once you've started weighing/measuring all your portions for a while you can more accurately "eyeball" the correct portions but if you're really serious about it you should measure everything.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 17:26:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
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poo-boys-united · 1 points · Posted at 17:34:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Congrats! that's awesome! Good luck with the final 10.
Turdulator · 6 points · Posted at 16:39:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Adding to this, if you are counting calories and saw some weight loss at first but have now leveled out, then cut a few hundred more calories from your daily count, and you'll see the weight loss start up again before eventually leveling out, then you can cut a few more, etc, etc..... by doing this you'll find the number of calories that sustain you at a given weight.
It's definitely hard to calculate your caloric expenditure in an average day, but if you are counting calories and tracking your weight in the long term, it's pretty easy to figure out the number of calories that keeps you at a steady weight, and that's the number you expend in an average day.
RichWPX · 1 points · Posted at 19:43:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If I go to a food truck and get Thai or a 1.5 foot breaded schnitzel with like a ton of stuff such as pickles and onions on it plus some mystery sauce, I'm never gonna know what the cal count is.
Turdulator · 3 points · Posted at 19:55:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You don't need to be exactly perfect, just close enough. You can list out the ingredients in an app like MyFitnessPal. MyFitnessPal even has the menu items for most chains already loaded in. (Mom and pop type restaurants are harder, but you can just find something similar from a chain and use that entry instead..... for example, a bagel from the locally owned place by my house isn't gonna be that much different from an Einstein bros bagel)
RichWPX · 1 points · Posted at 20:32:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Thanks for taking my question seriously, I thought it might come off as a joke, but the second item was my lunch today and it's not like I carry a scale around. I'll try the app and see.
Turdulator · 2 points · Posted at 20:51:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The way I look at it is this: it's better to make an educated guess and be a couple hundred cal off for one meal than it is to just be like "I can't be 100% accurate so fuck it, it's not worth doing at all"
Once you really start doing it, you'll be surprised at the calorie counts of some food you normally think of as "healthy". Like for example you'd have to eat about 5 whole oranges to match the calorie count of a single pint of orange juice. And you'll find the salad at place like Panera is made from "healthy" ingredients but the whole thing is over 1000 calories! To put that in context, I'm 5'11 and started at about 235lb, I started using the app to target 1900 calories, lost a few pounds and leveled out, then I dropped it to 1600 calories a day.... and now I'm down to 217, but I've leveled out recently once again.... so now my options are either A.drop to a lower calorie count or B. Increase daily activity. Being a lazy fuck and having a 50hr/week job, eating less is definitely easier for me than doing more activity, so I'll probably drop to 1300 or 1400. (But increasing my activity is probably the healthier choice, since there are more benefits to that besides just weight loss)
RichWPX · 1 points · Posted at 02:53:21 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
According to this my goal is 2140 a day, will see how it goes. I put in today so far, a little guesswork like you said but let's see how it goes. Thanks for all the tips and sharing your experience!
Turdulator · 1 points · Posted at 03:10:18 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
No prob man.... just stick with it, even if you miss a day, even if you know you are gonna be way over budget that day, just keep putting it in..... and if you record your weight periodically it gives you a nice little line graph to help you see your progress
vorga7721 · 4 points · Posted at 16:44:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I love this app/website. I have been recently diagnosed with type 2 diabetes, and using MyFitnessPal has really helped me understand and limit the amount of carbs and sugar that I consume. Following its guidelines has led me to lose 10 pounds in about 6 weeks.
vswr · 4 points · Posted at 17:52:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
To expand on this, a slice of cheese is around 100 cals. Running a mile is 100 cals. Is it easier to not eat the cheese or run a mile for the same result? Changing how much you eat will make you lose weight; changing what you eat will make you healthy; exercising will make you fit. They are often done in tandem but they are separate.
Also, payment in advance. Don't eat a brownie and say you'll exercise it off later. Exercise it off now and then eat the brownie.
poo-boys-united · 2 points · Posted at 18:02:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
this is a really good way of putting it! Also, don't eat the brownie.
Crevices · 2 points · Posted at 18:41:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
almost everything is just a guesstimate. there is no real way of knowing exactly how many calories you need or burn because there are so many different factors, it changes constantly, etc. you can approximate it (as mentioned before me) and just work from there! good luck and all the best. and as a side note, this may seem like an odd warning but do please try to not get obsessive over numbers. remember to live your life and not feel controlled by them.
mags87 · 2 points · Posted at 18:59:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is by far the most important part. Everything you consume! The app only works if you are honest with it.
poo-boys-united · 1 points · Posted at 19:00:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
yeah definitely. Helps if you have a set of measuring cups and kitchen scales so you can be as accurate as possible. Doing this long enough definitely improves your ability to "eyeball" your portions more accurately.
Se7enLC · 2 points · Posted at 20:04:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I found that being aware of how many calories you're taking in helps a lot with self-control and motivation. I set a goal of 1500 calories/day, so everything eat is something else I can't eat. I could have 240 calories of soda, but that's a lot of dinner I have to cut out.
Similarly, it helps motivate me to exercise. If I bike to work and back, that's another 700 or so calories I have to work with.
EpilepticAuror · 1 points · Posted at 18:53:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It also has a rudimentary function that estimates calories burned from certain exercises in their database. Not perfect, but it's flexible.
If you have a 1900 calorie per day allowance and submit that you jogged about 200 calories worth in the exercise column, your daily allowance will increase to 2100 calories for the day.
poo-boys-united · 1 points · Posted at 18:56:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
yeah that's true. It's kind of annoying it doesn't have that for lifting weights, only cardio/sport related exercise.
EpilepticAuror · 1 points · Posted at 19:01:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, I'd felt that as well, but if you keep up with your weight submissions it kind of plays catch-up.
Not being crass but I was earnestly disappointed sex wasn't at least listed as a cardio activity. It might not seem wholly appropriate at first glance, but when you're having it pretty regularly and with enough sustained duration, it absolutely qualifies as an exercise.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:08:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
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EpilepticAuror · 2 points · Posted at 19:14:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I mean I had a girlfriend come visit after months on the opposite coast and by the time the trip ended my abs were pretty thoroughly worked out.
barchueetadonai · 1 points · Posted at 19:47:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you want to actually be healthy, then you need to exercise.
poo-boys-united · 1 points · Posted at 19:49:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yup, a valid point which nobody will dispute. However if someone, for example is 100lbs overweight, then getting to a point where regular exercise is actually manageable is the priority and to do this one must focus on diet.
barchueetadonai · 1 points · Posted at 20:20:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Except it's incredibly difficult to continuously focus on diet longterm when you don't feel like it is consolidated by working out or playing sports or dance or something. Exercise and diet most effectively go hand in hand for whatever stage of fitness you are in. I think the big things that change over time are your methods (like first just running to burn calories and build up heart strength, and then lifting once you make substantial progress with your weight).
poo-boys-united · 1 points · Posted at 20:25:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, again, i understand that. But my point is that someone who weighs like 300lbs can't run, it will destroy their knees. Priority#1 should be diet. Then bring on moderate exercise as soon as you feel able. Then gradually increase the intensity with which you exercise.
barchueetadonai · 1 points · Posted at 21:02:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
They can do the elliptical or bike.
ashep24 · 1 points · Posted at 19:52:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"You can't outrun a bad diet"
sosurprised · 0 points · Posted at 19:16:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The only problem is it's not sustainable
poo-boys-united · 1 points · Posted at 19:28:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's sustainable if you sustain it...
That article is assuming people who count calories are stuffing their face with unhealthy foods while maintaining a good CICO balance. If you have a calorie deficit you will lose weight over a sustained period of time. The goal shouldn't JUST be to have a calorie deficit forever, you have to manage your macros and eat a healthy balanced diet at the same time.
sosurprised · 1 points · Posted at 04:53:16 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
But then why count at all? Why not just IIFYM (if it fits your macros), without the part that doesn't work, just saying eat less food, since it's not like counting calories is any more accurate anyways,
sarcasm_is_love · 33 points · Posted at 15:48:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Most such websites will only give a ballpark figure for how many calories someone requires on a daily basis based on their measurements.
My suggestion is to just keep a record of how many calories you consumed in 1 day, then find something you can drop. E.g. cutting out soda/juice for a week. Then progress to other changes week by week.
missasia7 · 16 points · Posted at 15:55:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well, that makes sense. Also, I cut out soda about a year ago. All it did was make me tired. I'm slowly easing out juice too. Someone once told me that what you drink matters just as much as what you eat. Because if you try to lost weight by drinking something every time you feel hungry at the wrong time, you are just trying to pacify an urge. Not ignore it. So, what I drink has been a conscious decision for a while. Now, on to the food and exercise.
right_there · 25 points · Posted at 16:25:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Cut out all drinks that are not water. You're just drinking your calories. If you're hungry in between meals, drink a glass or two of water to fill up your stomach and hopefully stop that urge. Would you rather have a couple glasses of juice or a full meal? I went with the meal.
Switching to only drinking water literally changed my life and I dropped like ten pounds instantly. I was actually right smack dab in the middle of the healthy range for my height and gender, so I had to work to balance out my diet to regain some of that weight with food. I had no idea how many calories I was mindlessly drinking that had no nutritional value or any real worth for my body.
I also think that the constant sugary drinks dulled my taste buds, because within a few weeks of switching to just water, everything tasted better. My skin is clearer now, my teeth are whiter, and I have much less GI upset.
Just do it. It's difficult at first, but trust me it is so worth it. By the time you're a month in, all cravings for any other drinks stop and it's smooth sailing.
sadface98 · 3 points · Posted at 16:46:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ever since I started living by myself (out of dorms) I've basically only been drinking water for my liquid intake. What would be the effect of occasionally having a bit of whisky or a beer? For me it would probably be one serving every other day (finger or two of whisky, one beer 355ml).
right_there · 4 points · Posted at 17:11:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Google the calories in a serving of your drink, figure out how many servings you'll be consuming, and do a bit of napkin math to see. You can then use Google to compare it to the calories in common foods that you eat routinely. A lot of time, I won't use the serving size, but I'll divide to get how many calories are in a single fluid ounce, and then multiply by the ounces I'm having. The math there just makes more sense to me that way as I find it easier to think in terms of the amount of ounces I'm having, not the number of servings (which can be arbitrary and vary per drink).
One serving every other day is 3-4 servings a week, which could add up to an extra meal or two a week that you're drinking. Depending on your total caloric intake and exercise level, something like this could cause you to gain weight over an extended period of time.
Basically, if you're close to maintenance already, this could push you over and put you at a small surplus each week, which could cause you to gain weight over time. How quickly that happens depends on how far over you're going. If you're not then you're good. I sacrificed alcohol and caffeine in my dedication to only drinking water. I probably get buzzed once or twice a year now. I understand that that's a tough sell for a lot of people. Do what feels right for you and what aligns most with your health and weight goals. If the booze is important to you, then you can cut out those calories from another source if weight loss is your goal. It's all fungible as long as you're meeting your nutritional needs and getting enough calories to maintain a healthy weight.
sadface98 · 2 points · Posted at 18:02:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think I bike enough to count out the beer or I can at least go and do something active after doing so, even if it's just long walk. Thanks for the information, much appreciated.
right_there · 1 points · Posted at 18:40:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No problem!
poo-boys-united · 2 points · Posted at 17:36:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Beer has a lot of calories. I think one 355ml is about 150 to 200 calories depending on which one. Which can add up but if you're having one every couple of days you should comfortably burn that off with exercise.
I will never discourage someone from having a finger or two of single malt though ;)
sadface98 · 2 points · Posted at 18:01:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah I think cutting out beer is fine, but I just love sipping whisky or rum after a day at work or school.
poo-boys-united · 2 points · Posted at 18:07:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Me too, man. Me too. I'll take a nice big measure of Lagavulin any day :)
sadface98 · 1 points · Posted at 18:09:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ahh, I have yet to expand my horizons past the slightly-not-super-cheap as I recently turned the drinking age where I live, but boy I can't wait!
poo-boys-united · 2 points · Posted at 18:12:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ah yeah, sadly i rarely get to drink the really good stuff as it is a bit pricey. Think a bottle of Lagavulin is about 70 bucks over here. Going to treat myself to a bottle when i get a job i think.
THEMBISCUIT · 1 points · Posted at 17:50:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Liquor has calories in it as well, Google tells me roughly 100 calories per 1.5 oz serving of liquor, but it depends on which type. However, it's generally fewer calories than beer.
poo-boys-united · 2 points · Posted at 17:51:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yah you're right it does. I just love whisky and wouldn't discourage someone from having a couple of fingers of it lol
THEMBISCUIT · 2 points · Posted at 18:02:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Right there with ya dude, whiskey is the nectar of the gods!
poo-boys-united · 2 points · Posted at 18:08:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Whisky*
assuming we're referring to Scotch. American ones are spelt "Whiskey". I don't know why it's different but i know that it is.
THEMBISCUIT · 2 points · Posted at 18:28:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Huh... I never noticed that before. Things in America are just one letter better I guess :P Edit: But yes scotch is amazing!!!
poo-boys-united · 2 points · Posted at 18:33:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
don't you dare say American whiskey is better than our glorious Scotch Whisky. Your dirty dirty bastard.
Kidding, i do like a nice bourbon. Jack Daniels is ass garbage though.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 18:19:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
agreed: Don't drink sugar!!
the food industry's job is to make money selling you food, not to ensure your health. The sooner you feel hungry and the more food you feel you need to eat helps them out a lot. There are no commercials for eating your veggies.
right_there · 2 points · Posted at 18:40:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Wow, that's a really powerful point about there being no commercials for eating our veggies. It perfectly puts into perspective that the food industry shouldn't be dictating our diets and are pushing unhealthy messages. Thank you for that, I'll definitely be using that when talking about eating a healthy diet in the future.
willmaster123 · 1 points · Posted at 17:00:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You can keep coffee
right_there · 1 points · Posted at 17:17:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I cut out caffeine too, so I personally didn't keep coffee. I'm not a very exciting coffee drinker anyway. I like it black, so it's not like I was dumping all kinds of stuff into it. I'd hazard a guess that black coffee is less bad for you than coffee that is filled with milk and sugar, but I'm not invested enough to look it up since I literally never drink it.
your_black_dad · 3 points · Posted at 17:45:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
1 cup of standard black coffee with nothing added has ~20 calories, and the caffeine will speed up your metabolism just enough to burn those (and maybe a little more) off without doing anything extra. More activity will lead to slightly more burn. I don't think drinking more over the course of the day has any positive effect.
I don't think it's a huge deal, drinking or not drinking coffee. It's simply not necessary to cut out if someone doesn't want to.
willmaster123 · 1 points · Posted at 17:34:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My friend actually STARTED drinking coffee as apart of her weight loss regime because it keeps her fidgeting constantly and makes her legs restless. This might sound weird but constantly fidgeting and having restless leg syndrome (which of course can be simulated by caffeine) is a great way to burn an extra few hundred calories throughout the day.
rmphys · 2 points · Posted at 18:18:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Caffeine is also a mild appetite suppressant, and if you're a boredom eater (like me), coffee can scratch that itch.
bbdale · 1 points · Posted at 18:38:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not true. Plain coffee and tea have been a godsend for me while losing weight.
setmehigh · 2 points · Posted at 19:09:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
One thing that helps is understanding that (barring a medical condition, and air) there are no nutrients that your body needs every day.
Then realize there is a difference between being hungry and feeling the urge to eat. Hungry you can feel in your bones and throat. The habit of eating at a specific time comes from your stomach.
GlyphGryph · 1 points · Posted at 19:16:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Juice has more calories than many sugars, so if you replaced soda with juice... yeah, you only made your problem worse. Good luck in the future! I recommend joining /r/loseit it's been really helpful to me
Thomas9002 · 2 points · Posted at 16:44:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
FTFY: Cutting them out forever
You can still drink them sometimes. But I know a lot of people who almost exclusively drink soda.
Five_Decades · 6 points · Posted at 16:13:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Are you gaining weight?
If not, just eat what you want for a few days and count how many calories you eat each day.
That is your maintenance.
ubiquitous_apathy · 6 points · Posted at 17:33:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If a young person needs to lose 70 pounds, their daily eating probably isn't maintenance.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:36:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
ubiquitous_apathy · 2 points · Posted at 19:38:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Agreed
Andy_B_Goode · 7 points · Posted at 17:50:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Use a TDEE calculator, like this one: https://tdeecalculator.net/
TDEE is Total Daily Energy Expenditure, or the total number of calories you burn every day.
The calculator will give you a rough estimate of your TDEE. If you eat 500 kcal less than that every day, you should lose 1 pound (0.5 kg) every week. If after a few weeks you aren't losing weight, it means that either the TDEE estimate was off for some reason, or you're not counting calories accurately. Either way, lower your caloric intake by another couple hundred kcal, until you are consistently losing 1 pound per week.
Be sure to exercise regularly as well. When you lose weight, you lose both fat and lean body mass (muscle, bone density, etc.) Losing lean body mass is pretty well never desirable, but exercising will cause your body to better conserve lean mass while losing fat.
punriffer5 · 8 points · Posted at 17:19:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You can't figure it out. Your body is different then every other body.
Factors:
Your weight
The amount of muscle you have
How active you are
Like 80 other variables you can't control
This is a terrible but possibly the best way of figuring out (about) how many calories your body burns. Measure everything you eat, all of the calories you take in, and then modify how much you take in until you don't gain or lose weight for a number of days in a row, that's how much you burn give or take.
Or better yet just myFitnesspal everything you eat and see how many calories lead to weight loss, then do that.
If you're feeling bolder and are a bit more dedicated to your weightloss, i HIGHLY recommend /r/keto. The keto diet is a great way of losing weight, in a healthy and scientifically backed manner. It'll test a lot of your "conventional wisdom" that has been untruely ingrained in you. (This is a great pun, but you won't get it until you /r/keto)
[deleted] · 8 points · Posted at 17:46:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
ThaChippa · 0 points · Posted at 17:46:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Someone call for Tha Chippa?
chuckymcgee · 3 points · Posted at 17:52:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you're that obese, it's not rocket science to get you to lose weight. You need to dramatically scale back your portions. Yeah throw in some walking and workout if you can, but you don't get 70lbs overweight without eating tons of shit all the time.
You're probably consuming thousands upon thousands of excess calories a day, something that would require hours for even a very fit person to burn off. And as you're not very fit at all, attempting to burn that off through cardio would be hellish. Scale your food portions back dramatically, eliminate all liquid calories and accept that your previous lifestyle was completely unsustainable.
Weigh your portions on a digital scale to get a sense od what you're eating and look up calories. Scale back from that.
missasia7 · 0 points · Posted at 17:59:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I am not obese. I weigh 206.8. I have talked to my doctor. He said that I should look at 30-40lbs but my overall goal is 70. Also, my main problem is protein because I eat too much meat because my family and I grill alot. I don't eat chips and fries and junk food. I don't drink soda or tea or too much coffee. I eat plenty of fruits, veggies, nuts, etc. I eat the proper foods just too much of them. Which I can admit now. I am just looking to cut it back.
lying_Iiar · 5 points · Posted at 19:11:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Obese is a medical term, it's not something you decide by looking in the mirror. If you weigh 206 as a female, you are almost certainly obese by medical standards.
For instance, a 5'4" woman who weighs 174lbs+ is obese.
Weighing 206lbs, you'd have to be at least 5'10" to be just a hair under obese.
chuckymcgee · 2 points · Posted at 19:20:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Your height is?
thorbo · 2 points · Posted at 19:26:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Most people aren't willing to suffer through the hunger pains to lose the weight. You can do it though.
deadliftsbrah · 2 points · Posted at 20:04:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
At that weight / height you're in the 35 - 40 BMI range which is considered obese Class II.
r/keto a great resource for weight loss - good luck!
applejacksparrow · 3 points · Posted at 17:54:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Multiply your weight by 14 then stay about 1000 calories under that number. You'll lose like 2 pounds a week at least.
thorbo · 1 points · Posted at 19:26:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You're not wrong but man would that ever suck going through that.
applejacksparrow · 1 points · Posted at 20:00:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I mean, I've been doing 1300 daily calories for the last month. You just have to get used to it.
portingil · 2 points · Posted at 16:32:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There are calculators on fitness websites. Here's a good one.
Tell me if that helps. Also, burning fat and building muscle is the way to go. If there's a vanity aspect to your weight loss goals, having some muscle on your frame will make you look ten times better than just cutting all the fat and being scrawny.
thatguy1717 · 2 points · Posted at 17:19:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I lost 50 pounds calorie counting. I decided 1700 calories would be my average intake. People think this means I was starving myself...simply not true. Instead of eating a cheeseburger and fries for lunch at 1000+ calories, a grilled chicken breast and veggies are 400. He'll, you can get Chipotle for under 500 if you don't eat the tortilla.
Then I ran 1 mile and lifted weights 3 times per week. Running a mile is about 150-200 calories and an hour if weight lifting can be double that. Most of your burned calories, though, come throughout your daily activities. If you sit on your ass all day, it's hard to overcome that in the gym. Standing up and walking around at least once per hour is necessary.
ubiquitous_apathy · 2 points · Posted at 17:36:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Eat X amount of calories a day. Not losing weight after a month? Eat less calories. It's that simple. The hardest part is being honest with yourself about what you're actually eating. "Small" glass of soda? Track it. Just a square of chocolate? Track it. Snacks add up. You need to start by acknowledging that.
LOUDCoach · 2 points · Posted at 17:37:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
/r/loseit
Check them out
La_Bamba_ · 2 points · Posted at 17:54:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
For an average rule, walking a mile burns 100 calories. Same with running a mile. Running just gets it done quicker.
Basically to burn the calories in an apple, walk a mile. To burn the calories in about 2 Oreos, walk a mile and a half.
Bronzekatalogen · 2 points · Posted at 18:16:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah you got this.
I used that MyFitnessPal for a few months and got a good feel for how many calories there are in things. Then I deleted it, and now I just sort of "know" how much there is in everything I consume.
Lost 17 kg (37.5 lbs) in a year, and I am confident in saying 95% of that loss was done in the kitchen, not in a gym.
Good luck!
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:18:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The biggest factor in losing weight is diet. In fact, you don't have to ever light a single weight or step on a tread mill (though obviously it is recommended that you do that too). Weight is lost in the kitchen and MUSCLE is built in the gym. Do you want to do both or just one?
Re: diet, calories and sugar are the enemy. I cut sugar (pop, desserts, etc.) and lost weight every week consistently.
theluckytwig · 2 points · Posted at 18:31:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Step 1. Determine your caloric intake. This is not exact but a very close ballpark. If you're going on walks or hitting the gym you do not include that in the "activity portion." This activity portion is for your regular day existence. Working out or going on walks should not count towards this.
Step 2. Determine your goals. Do you only want to lose weight? Do you want to lose weight and put on some muscle/be lean? Do you want to be a body builder? Personal bias time - Lose weight/put on muscle. You won't accidentally become a bulky muscle-y woman. Every workout regiment a man can do a woman. Lift hard, lift heavy. Benchpress, deadlift, squat, etc. r/fitness is an excellent place to learn, well, anything you want to do. Just browse the "Getting Started" and "Frequently Asked Questions" portions of the sidebar. It has a tremendous amount of information and easy to understand.
Step 3. Diet. To lose weight you must eat less than the calculated amount from before. E.g. maintenance calories is 1800, eat 1500 or 1600. Keep in mind that the above amount is a ballpark. If you see no difference in weight after 2 weeks then adjust by another 100 calories. If you're lifting weights then you must incorporate protein or muscle gain will be limited/non existent after a short time. Learn the term IIFYM (If it fits your macros). Under the Frequently Asked Questions of r/fitness is a diet section, about a quarter of the way down the page. It explains how to calculate your protein intake, fat intake and carbohydrate intake. After you follow it's instruction you simply just check the nutritional info on food you purchase. Some tips here - Greek Yogurt is AWESOME in protein/fat/carb. Eggs are great. Cut out soda and fruit juices.
Step 4. Get to work.
WillFord27 · 2 points · Posted at 19:41:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I have the same issue. Thanks for asking the question.
Chaotic-Catastrophe · 1 points · Posted at 16:20:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Best way is to use an online calculator to estimate your daily expenditure, then carefully track your calorie intake for a few weeks and compare. Tracking amout of calories burned from any particular activity is extremely difficult and varies person to person. But tracking how much you use in an average day and eating to fit that is a lot easier.
Gillbreather · 1 points · Posted at 16:46:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Most of our calories are burned simply by being alive, even if all you're doing is sitting or sleeping. There's more than one equation for that, as well as very long lists of how many calories are burned on average while performing different activities like jogging. In my experience, it is much more effective to have a healthy diet that you stick to, than to try and exercise off our candy intake. Like my professors said, "You can't outrun a bad diet."
994phij · 1 points · Posted at 17:31:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You can calculate the calories you eat much more accurately than the calories you burn. So you can use a website to get a guess of calories burned if you like, but it's just a guess.
The right way of doing it is with scales. You watch your weight for a while, if it's going down then decrease the calories you eat, if it's going up, then increase the calories you eat. Don't worry about how much you're burning each day, because, day to day variation averages out - if you have a big lifestyle change, just start watching your weight again.
ExtraSmooth · 1 points · Posted at 17:51:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah the difference between just existing and exercising isn't that great as far as daily calories burned. You burn between 1500 and 2500 calories just to keep your heart beating, etc., and if you ran 3 miles you might burn 300-500 more calories I think. It's much easier to cut out 500 calories from your diet than to burn an extra 500 calories, especially if you're overweight to begin with.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:52:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's called "black body radiation" and for humans it is further called human body emission. Your skin emits heat at about 100 watts (joules / second). Your body digests food to keep warm.
In 24 hours we emit 100 * 60 60 * 24 = 8,640,000 Joules of energy or 2063 kcals (food calories).
If you eat more energy than you radiate, your body stores it up - hence your 70lbs of unused energy. Each pound of body fat is approximately 3500 kcals of energy, which is approx 14,653,800 Joules, the 70lbs is 1,025,766,000 Joules, enough to boil 3067 litres of water (6481.725 US Pints)
You can use more joules by doing some exercise but it takes a lot of exercise - running a marathon, for instance, is only 2500kcals more than doing nothing.
If you ate nothing at all, your 70lbs would last you 118 days. Angus Barbieri lost 293 pounds by doing just that - under medical supervision, and it took him 382 days. Not recommended.
The 500 kcal deficit is the usual recommendation, and you would lose approx 1lb per week. It doesn't steadily decline though, but in steps as fat is replaced by water in your cells, and then the water is passed out - something that often makes dieters disheartened when it looks like their self discipline is for nothing when their weight doesn't change for 10 days.
Personally I have reduced my mass by 40lbs through food reduction alone. I didn't calorie count everything, I just got used to eating with discipline - it's the habits that are doing it. A bag of chips and a soda - 300kcals and for what, one is no less hungry after a bag of chips !
Blueshark25 · 1 points · Posted at 17:55:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
On a most basic level, just read the food lables and keep track. Get an app that tells you the calories in things that don't have lables and keep track of it. First day gauge where you are, then get a goal of under 2000 calories per day.when you realize a slice of pizza is 325 of those 2000 calories and that's 16% of your daily consumption it hurts, but the truth is you just have to keep under a 2000 calorie per day limit to lose the weight. Add exercise and you get a little more room, but not much. Exercise can build muscle though which will raise your daily metabolism. Just do your best and hone your diet slowly for the best long term effects ☺
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:03:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
EER will give you the best estimate of your daily calorie needs, but it is just an estimate.
To determine your calorie needs, you will need to maintain a consistent diet and exercise routine for a few weeks. Weigh yourself at the same time every day and track your weight loss/gain, then make adjustments to your routine based on your goals.
RunHomeJack · 1 points · Posted at 18:03:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Agree with previous comments - use myfitnesspal if you want a quick and mostly reliable way to calculate calorie intake.
Also agree that you should focus more on diet, and just commit to regular exercise. Even if you don't have the math down to every calorie, your lifestyle change will result in weight loss and a happier mind.
I you don't want to trust the foods others have entered as options on MFP - here is how it works:
3,500 calories is about 1 pound of fat
That means you need a caloric deficit of 3500 to lose 1 lb of fat. (You burn calories ALL THE TIME - and even more if you have more muscle mass- so don't let this dissuade you).
To calculate calorie intake, you can use the nutrition labels (though these get rounded by a few calories according to these laws, or if you only have macronutrient (protein, carbohydrate, fats) composition for some reason:
1g protein = 4 calories 1g carbohydrates = 4 calories 1g fat = 9 calories
Sugar alcohols are increasingly popular and count as carbs but usually "cost" less than 4 calories per gram. I've read stuff that says don't consume them, mostly on organic/paleo type blogs but I've also seen stuff that says they are super A#1.
As you mentioned, calculating calories burned is pretty difficult: every one has different Metabolic rates and exercise habits. You can get a rough estimate using a BMR (Basal Metabolic Rate) calculator anywhere online. Maybe try a few and average it out in your head. Again, this is less important than a change in diet and regular exercise.
I will also say that it's good to have a fat loss goal, but a lot of people get caught up in weight loss. If you want to commit to lifestyle change, I'd say learning your body composition is an important starting step to healthy body change. Losing 40 pounds outright may not be as great as losing 20 pounds and gaining some muscle in there. Lean muscle makes for a healthier person, and will help you burn more calories at rest. Definitely include weight training in your exercise regiment if you are of an age where there is no concern about growth platelets
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:05:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You can get very rough estimates that could be useful. For example, I used to do spinning classes and that would burn from 300 to 600 calories if you are fairly new at it. So, think of it as, it'll take you a full hour of spinning to burn a cheesecake. Once I realized that, I stopped eating cheesecakes.
Xaxxon · 1 points · Posted at 18:05:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The equation for weight change is:
change in weight = input calories - burned calories
If you know two you can calculate the third. To figure out your burn rate, track your weight and eating for a couple weeks and then you can figure out what you're burning.
catjuggler · 1 points · Posted at 18:05:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Get a fitbit. The app calculates for you and you can also track what you eat in the app to make sure you're running a deficit.
DankMatterTheorist · 1 points · Posted at 18:08:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
3500 calories = 1 Ibs of fat, calories consumed = Calories expended as work + Calories stored as fat (if it's negative you are burning fat, congrats) You can just google something like "calories burned by ____" and find out a rough idea, there are tons of online calculators that will give you a fine estimate based off height, weight, age, and gender. Running burns more than basically anything, but diet is the most important thing. A healthy diet and strength training is the best combo in my opinion.
cjbrehh · 1 points · Posted at 18:22:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
to add to what else ive seen. use an estimator to see how many calories a day will lose you say, a pound or two a week. this isnt exact as everyone is different. if it says for example 2100 calories a day should burn a pound. and you do that for 2 weeks and it doesnt work. go to 2000 or 1900 etc. keep going till it gets to where you want it to be. keep in mind that as you lose weight, its going to take less and less calories without adding any extra calorie burning.
biggerliar · 1 points · Posted at 18:26:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The phrase you're looking for is "resting metabolic rate".
MHG73 · 1 points · Posted at 18:27:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you want to know an approximate number of calories you burn each day, google "TDEE calculator". TDEE is total daily energy expenditure. For just how many calories you burn without any excercise, google "BMR calculator". BMR is basal metabolic rate and it includes only how much energy it takes to keep you alive. A pound of fat is 3500 calories, so if you want to lose a pound per week, find your TDEE and subtract 500 calories and that's how much you should eat. Remember the calculator will only give you an approximate number, so if you notice it's not working out properly, lower your calories per day a bit more. Also, remember everyone is different and every process is different. Some people cut out all junk food from their diet and that works for them. Some people eat only junk food, but less, and lose weight. Some people like to eat one big meal to stay under their calorie goal, and others like to have many small meals and find that easier.
lucybluth · 1 points · Posted at 18:29:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You might want to consider investing in an activity tracker like a Fitbit so it will calculate your calories burned for you! You can set up a fitness plan to reach a certain goal weight and as you burn calories, it will also tell you how many calories you have remaining for the day to keep you on track. I swear by mine, I love it.
motsanciens · 1 points · Posted at 18:32:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just approximate it: exercise burns roughly zero calories. I'm serious. Unless you're going to run for 2 hours, you're much better off just not drinking that soda instead of trying to exercise it off.
Kahzgul · 1 points · Posted at 18:36:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The great thing is you don't need to know that number. If you're not losing weight, you need to eat less than you're eating now in order to lose weight. It's that easy.
For most people, the hard part is knowing how to eat less. Snack on apples or unsalted nuts instead of candy bars or chips. Drink water instead of soda. Cook at home instead of going to fast food. Eat more greens and fewer breads. Drink less, and don't drink beer at all. Eat smaller portions. Use a smaller plate (seriously, this works), take smaller bites.
RepppinMD · 1 points · Posted at 18:37:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You want to find your basal metabolic rate (BMR). This is an estimate of the number of calories your body burns with no exercise at all (i.e. if you stay in bed all day). It's easy to find a BMR calculator online.
Any additional calories you burn are added to your BMR to find the total number of calories burned that day. These can come from working out, jogging, walking around the house etc...
The truth is exercise is important for health, but not so important for weight loss. The only thing that matters is that you consume fewer calories than you burn.
peteybird22 · 1 points · Posted at 18:37:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Check this website out: http://www.health-calc.com/diet/energy-expenditure-advanced
CuddleLumpkin · 1 points · Posted at 18:41:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Find your basal metabolic rate. There are calculators that will do this online. Your BMR is an equation that takes into account or age, height, and sex. It's the calories your body burns by just being alive. If you were bed bound, in a coma, you'd burn that many calories.
If you are looking for intense weight loss (2-3 pounds a week) you eat your BMR worth of calories. Adding exercise makes you lose weight faster, but beware, too much exercising while doing an intense calorie deficit can backfire because it's super easy to binge because you're hungry.
Ken-_-Adams · 1 points · Posted at 18:43:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I recommend a fitbit or other fitness tracker that has a smartphone app. It does everything and even let's you set goals.
They seem to get a bad press but I can't think of a better way to represent diet and exercise than the fitbit app!
billFoldDog · 1 points · Posted at 18:57:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
To get a real value requires special equipment that measures your oxygen intake and CO2 output.
The fancy explanation uses experimental data and statistical models to get as close as possible to your true resting caloric consumption.
Here is the easy way: Assume your body consumes 10 times your weight in calories plus the estimated calories for actual exercise. You can get those estimated calories from apps like MyFitnessPal. This approach wilo have about 20% error.
So if you do 300 calories of cardio and weigh 200lbs, you will have consumed about 2300 calories that day.
Tyler1986 · 1 points · Posted at 18:58:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, it's an estimate on how many calories you burn daily. Here's a simple calculator. All you have to do is gender, age, height, weight, and activity level. It will give you an estimate on what you are burning a day.
MyFitnessPal is amazing because if you try and estimate your calories in without recording them you are probably eating more than you think. Record what you eat, it doesn't take very long, a minute or two per meal, I do it right after I eat anything.
With those two tools you can start making progress! One thing I've found is if you're having trouble losing weight and you get discourage easily do not weight yourself every day, do it weekly, it's easier to see the progress that way.
Another huge help to me was getting a fitbit. I never realized how sedentary I can be until I saw how many steps I get a day. I shoot for 10k a day, on a lazy day I can have only 2k. From my experience, if I get that 10k a day I'm burning 500 calories more than if I only get 3-5k. The point of this paragraph is, that activity is good, even if its only walking, it will add up and make a big difference in the long run.
The fitbit I have also has a heartrate monitor on it, so it knows my weight, age, height, activity level (pedometer), and heart rate, so as I understand it it's giving me a more accurate calorie burn estimate than the TDEE. It's included right on the watch, how many steps I took and how many calories I've burned.
You can also connect your fitbit and MyFitnessPal, so MFP will know if you've been extra active it will update and say you've earned 300 extra calories from exercise today. I also have the fitbit scale, so I don't mind weighing myself daily, because I can log into fitbit and see the trend of my weight going down, even if it doesn't go down every day, over the course of the weeks it's generally going down.
I love my fitbit, fitbit scale, and myfitnesspal combo. It makes it all so much easier, at least to me. One last tip, if you're new to calories, as I understand it 3500 calories in a lb of fat, so you want to be at ~3500 calorie deficit for the week to lose a pound.
Good luck, you can do it.
recoveringPHPDev · 1 points · Posted at 19:00:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I've lost over 100lbs calorie counting.
Estimating calories burned in a workout is impossible to do accurately. Devices like fitbit (which I use) usually over shoot it. I never eat back calories like that. The most I do is a protein shake after weights or a strenuous hike.
As for calculating your stagnant calorie rate, most online calculators are pretty good. It's a great place to start and you can use weight lost to fine tune it from there. Start by tracking everything for a few weeks. The FAQ on r/loseit goes into more detail.
lionorderhead · 1 points · Posted at 19:02:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In all honesty you have to go to bed a little hungry. You have to create a calorie deficit somehow. I got BIG results by replacing breakfast and lunch with a shitty meal replacement bar, 2 snacks a day of just raw veggies and a carefully portioned out and measured dinner. I got a little kitchen scale for that. I was super fucking hungry at first, then just a little hungry. Once i dropped the weight, i switched to three carefully measured meals a day and three snacks of either fruit or veg. My apetite changed and now if i have a cheat meal i cant eat nearly as much as i used to. It takes discipline and to retrain your appetite. But be prepared to be a little hungry.
TacosAreJustice · 1 points · Posted at 19:02:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Good luck with the dieting! I need to get back into it, but don't currently have the motivation.
It's really all about how many calories you consume. Exercise and everything else help, but will not make or break losing weight.
When I successfully lost weight, I focused on a few things.
No alcohol. Or very little. Like one drink a week. If that. The less you drink the better off you will be.
Try to avoid "empty" calories. Basically anything that has a high calorie count and no other value. White bread is my default example. It's literally just straight carbs, no real protein or vitamins.
Fiber is good. Find things with lots of fiber. They tend to be healthy, they fill you up and you stay full. You can go overboard, but eating a salad for lunch everyday with minimal waste (croutons are OK, but not many... be aware of whats in the dressing) will keep you full.
Honestly, my least favorite part of dieting was the repetition... Try to find new recipes that are healthy. Spicy food is always a good choice!
Keep at it, don't let one bad day derail you. Sadly, it's an entire lifestyle change and it's HARD.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:11:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Generally, 1lb of fat = 3500 calories. So in order to lose 1lb you need to have a defecit (either through exercise or nutrition) of 3500 calories. 500 calorie defecit each day = 1lb lost per week (more or less). There are plenty of subs for weight loss, such as r/loseit. There are also many for nutrition and calorie counting, r/1500isplenty r/1200isplenty and for specific diets such as r/keto (if you're unsure what that is, it's all explained over there!) I highly recommend checking them out.
Rykurex · 1 points · Posted at 19:15:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Another approach you could take to changing your eating habits is to only eat single ingredient foods. This will force you to stop eating processed stuff and you will likely move to a healthier weight.
I don't mean to eat only one ingredient though, you can cook "rice and beans" for example, it doesn't have to be one or the other. This approach really helps people who don't like to calorie count.
darwin2500 · 1 points · Posted at 19:22:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There is no accurate way for the average consumer to calculate either how many calories they have obtained from their food or how many calories they have burned during their day.
flee_market · 1 points · Posted at 19:23:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Losing weight is more about what you eat than how much exercise you're getting.
You absolutely should exercise, but mainly because NOT doing so has some pretty harsh consequences for your heart and lungs.
Even if you super super bulk up from lots of weight lifting, it'll only increase your TDEE a couple hundred calories per day. You'd have to be literally training like Michael Phelps to actually need an 8000/day diet. I don't think any normal person with a day job can sustain that or wants to attempt to, if they're sane.
Instead, you should change what's going in your face hole.
Carbs and especially refined sugars make you hungry. Try it sometime, go get a box of Pop Tarts, take a gander at the nutrition facts on the back (400 calories per pastry, christ almighty), and go ahead and eat a Pop Tart. Hell, eat two.
Now start a stopwatch and sit back. See how long it takes before you get the urge to eat.
Tomorrow, cook yourself up some chicken and broccoli. Do whatever math you find necessary to equalize the calories with the amount of calories you ate in Pop Tarts previously.
Repeat the experiment. See how long it takes for you to get hungry. Also compare how you feel after eating it.
What you will likely find is that:
meat and veggies stretch calories considerably further than carbs/processed sugary shit (and yes, technically veggies have carbs in them, but in very small amounts that are unrefined as well)
eating refined carbs satisfies the "carb craving" but doesn't satiate hunger. You still want to eat again soon after.
tl;dr - want to lose weight and look like someone who runs across the African savannah to chase down his dinner? Start eating like him. Meat and veggies, the odd occasional fruit maybe, but mostly meat.
Korhaka · 1 points · Posted at 19:23:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I just go with the approximation of 1KG weight loss per day, then anything I eat reduces that.
hezur6 · 1 points · Posted at 19:25:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You got many good replies already but basal metabolical rate (aka the amount you burn by just existing) is estimated to be around 60-80 calories per hour, varying per person and going up the heavier you are. That means a neutral diet to keep your current weight once you're health is usually around 1500-2000, assuming you live a pretty sedentary life.
Then each hour walking burns 300-400 depending on your pace, running and swimming are closer to the 500-700 mark.
Then for some final considerations, each gram of protein/carbs equals 4 calories, each gram of fat equals 9. So to lose 1kg your expenditures minus your intake should equal 9000 calories. A recommended pace to lose weight is 1/2kg a week, so 4500 calories / 7 days = around 650 a day. This is everything MyFitnessPal will consider when it recommends you the usual 1600 calorie daily limit, as it'll assume you'll burn around 2300 ;)
jshen907 · 1 points · Posted at 19:26:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
1g of fat = 9 calories, 1g of carb = 4 calories, 1g of protein = 4 calories, Thank goodness for nutritional fact labels!
HooDooOperator · 1 points · Posted at 19:29:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
dude, ill tell you the best advice i have for this, having lsot 70lbs at one point myself. stop worrying about counting calories, stop worrying about weighing yourself, stop worrying about counting calories burned. just start eating healthier shit and work as hard as you can when you work out, i guarantee you start seeing results.
all that counting just makes the whole things seem more difficult than it is. and weighing yourself just makes the process seem slower than it really is (because as you lose fat you gain muscle, and throws your numbers off). just find something that is fun, and gets your heart rate up, and do the shit out of it while making healthier eating choices in general, and you will lose weight, and it wont suck as much as it does if you put too much thought into the whole thing.
zexez · 1 points · Posted at 19:32:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Depending on your current weight, age and gender your body consumes a set amount of calories (almost all that you eat). There are websites you can use to plug in you weight, age and gender and your target weight and it knows how much you will burn naturally and tell you the exact amount of calories you should eat to meet your goals. Good luck :)
flnagoration · 1 points · Posted at 19:33:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
hahahahaha
MidnightDaylight · 1 points · Posted at 19:36:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Hey! I recently lost ~17 pounds and I want to share the thought that's really kept me going:
This isn't a temporary diet. It's a lifestyle change. I'm learning how to eat right and take care of myself for the rest of my life, so I better find ways to enjoy it while I do. And I have! And I feel so much better.
It can be frustrating, but it's worth it. Do it for you.
Ryan526 · 1 points · Posted at 19:38:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Fuck counting calories. Do OMAD ( one meal a day ). It's hard at first but it's tough to overeat calories when it's only 1 meal and you don't need to worry about counting calories.
tigerscomeatnight · 1 points · Posted at 19:38:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Calories are measured using a "bomb calorimeter" and actually burning the substrate and measuring the energy produced (the energy needed to raise one gram of water one degree centigrade). But bodies and food are much more complicated than that. The important thing would be to learn the difference between carbohydrates, protein and fat and to weigh your portions with a kitchen scale. Journaling your intake will give you insight into what works with your body to reach your goals. Good luck.
Yds · 1 points · Posted at 19:40:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you haven't done so yet, go to /r/loseit for information and support.
Japjer · 1 points · Posted at 19:42:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Download Noom.
On average, 1800-2000 calories per day is what lets you maintain your weight. Anything less than that will cause you to lose weight.
If you eat 1600 calories per day, with no excersize, you can lose a pound every 9 days or so. 1500 calories will get you one pound per week.
Noom is free and has the calorie count for damn near every food there is.
ThinksShesPeople · 1 points · Posted at 19:44:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I just purchased a Whoop strap - a fitness band much more tuned to your body than an apple watch or fitbit. I know exactly how many calories my body burns everyday, and what I am capable of the next day based on the sleep I get. I use the Whoop to track calories out, and MyFitnessPal to track calories in, and I get a very complete picture of what my deficit is. If you can afford the Whoop, I highly recommend it.
JeddHampton · 1 points · Posted at 19:47:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Start checking packaging for calorie counts and weighing yourself. Packaging isn't a perfect calorie count, but they tend to be good enough. By weighing yourself regularly (preferably daily), you can start to get a feel for what it takes you to lose weight.
Everyone has a body that works differently. It's really hard to figure out what your body did. Even if you find the average prole both, it's not going to be that applicable to you.
Unless you have time and money to burn, the best course of action is to record your weights daily (or twice a day if you'd like) and change your eating habits. I suggest eating more veggies.
It's highly probable that you can treat eating veggies as an all you can eat buffet and still be eating fewer calories than you are currently. Just don't ruin the veggies by adding cheese and butter and all the other things people do to ruin the healthy aspects of them.
BodyMindGains · 1 points · Posted at 19:52:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Look up "TDEE Calculator." This estimates your activities burned from calories + your baseline metabolism (BMR).
It's only an estimate, but if you eat relative to it and make changes you can easily find your actual total daily energy expenditure (TDEE).
Fumbles48 · 1 points · Posted at 19:55:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Get a food scale. You can get one on Amazon for $8
Skyler_Chigurh · 1 points · Posted at 19:55:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You'll lose weight in the kitchen not the gym. Don't drink your calories.
geak78 · 1 points · Posted at 19:57:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
They have nice online calculators for that. The larger you are the more calories it takes to survive. So if you lose a significant amount of weight you'll actually need less calories every day.
For example at my current weight I burn around 3600 calories according to that link. If I dropped 50 pounds I'd only burn 3000.
typhyr · 1 points · Posted at 19:57:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
every burns a base amount of calories per day even if they laid down perfectly still. this is because the body is still doing work, and keeping a person warm is really "expensive" energy-wise. this is caled the base metabolic rate, or BMR. it only varies a little bit with genetics, so it's pretty easy to estimate it with some online calculators. they take in your height, weight, and activity level and you'll see about how many calories you burn in a day.
your best bet is to try to eat about 500 calories lower than that per day. this yields a weight loss of one pound per week (since a pound of fat is roughly 3500 calories). obviously this varies since your daily routine is likely different every day, and thus your activity level isn't really static. but it's still a good baseline to follow. make sure you update your BMR every so often (i did so every 5 pounds, but even that wasn't a huge difference).
c-fox · 1 points · Posted at 19:59:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Weight loss is 90% diet. 10% exercise.
nagol93 · 15 points · Posted at 17:40:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So, I have a semi-related question.
Lets say I 'burn' 50lbs of fat. Ware dose all that mass go? You cant destroy matter so it must go somewhere. Do you poop it out? pee it out? sweat it out? breath it out?
(sorry for bad english)
Edit: Thanks for the answers :)
sarcasm_is_love · 37 points · Posted at 18:08:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Fat is eventually metabolized down into CO2 and H2O; so the simplest answer is you breathe and sweat/piss it out.
[deleted] · 4 points · Posted at 18:37:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And some converts to heat energy.
Seicair · 3 points · Posted at 20:28:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
An infinitesimal fraction, but technically correct.
Bytewave · 4 points · Posted at 18:38:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Id have thought everyone was at least aware of the latter. The fact a fair amount of it is expelled through breath is a bit lesser known. Still, I remembered that from middle school biology.
cdnball · 10 points · Posted at 18:07:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
when you burn fat (which is essentially several sugar molecules combined together), you are breaking the molecule back into its constituent parts - H2O and CO2.
Roughly 80% of the mass is CO2, and the other 20% is H20. Some of the H20 is expelled through the lungs, some through sweat, and some through urine.
But the main point here is that you breath out roughly 80% of the mass as CO2. It comes out of your lungs!
So get your body moving, get your metabolism churning, and your cells and lungs will do the rest.
this is the video I watched - sorry if my figures are a bit off, I haven't watched it in awhile.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:16:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
cdnball · 1 points · Posted at 19:22:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And where does glycerol come from? Sorry I may have skipped a few steps in the explanation, but all food energy derives from plant-produced sugars at some point.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 20:12:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
cdnball · 1 points · Posted at 20:21:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
K, I get it. No I didn't mean literally, but the fact they trace back to originally from sugar formed from photosynthesis.
Sargos · 3 points · Posted at 18:07:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The matter turns into energy and a few byproducts. You lose energy through heat, movement, etc. Fat cells typically stick around even after they are empty. They are just really tiny like an uninflated balloon. After many months of being empty they are sometimes detached and excreted through urine.
MetaCommando · 4 points · Posted at 18:06:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's converted in energy; you burn calories when you work, like pushing a block up a ramp.
yoeddyVT · 7 points · Posted at 18:43:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I can't believe how many people think they gain weight due to specific foods*. Its calories out vs calories in.
Ninjaintrouble · 5 points · Posted at 19:59:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not every food is just calories in. If you eat excessive sugar it is broken down by insulin into body fat. Eating healthy is way more imoportant than exercising. People didnt even work out that much before processed foods where produced.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 20:43:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That doesn't really matter. If you eat less than you burn you'll be in a state where you will be burning fat faster than you are putting it on because of insulin.
Ninjaintrouble · 1 points · Posted at 20:48:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You are right but you would be extremely hungry and realistically you will want to eat more. Eating sugary messes up your hunger sense.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 21:08:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But it's still just calories in in terms of weight loss, which is the point of the thread. People need to stop demonizing sugar and stop pretending the only way to lose weight is to eat chicken and rice every day. One extreme or the other will never lead to weight loss in the long term.
mexicangoober · 12 points · Posted at 18:31:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So thermodynamics aren't violated, and obv this is physically true, but in practice, the # of calories on a food label aren't the # that every body absorbs into a usable state every time that food is digested. Also, the # of calories "burned off" is basically impossible to measure/predict. The most precise measurement/estimate is to use doubly labeled water on people eating carefully massed foods and living inside chambers that very precisely measure heat and CO2/oxygen.
This is very unlike TDEE calculators, nutrition labels, and estimates of how much 30 minutes of running at 8:00/mile pace burns off. These are really shitty estimates, and ignore the biggest impact that food, exercise, and sleep can have, which is to change the hormonal state within a person. When we inject small amounts of testosterone into a broad test group of male subjects, it doesn't matter what they eat, they gain muscle and lose fat.
Most people aren't interested in gaining or losing weight. If they were, then just eat/drink/sweat/pee/poop until you reach the desired weight. Most people are interested in decreasing their body fat percentages and/or gaining muscle mass. With the real goal in mind, calories of foods become much less important as trying to make a "recipe" that improves internal hormonal state, which forces lower body fat percentage with very little regard to amount or quality of food.
sarcasm_is_love · 3 points · Posted at 18:52:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The human body still burns primarily fat first because they contain more calories per unit mass. It breaks down muscle due in part to muscles naturally atrophying from inactivity. Mostly though muscle gets metabolized to supply the body with amino acids in poorly planned diets.
AllUltima · 4 points · Posted at 19:35:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Unless the insulin is flowing.
Several artificial sweeteners can probably raise insulin: Stevia, Splenda, Acesulfame K.
Also, there seems to be a cephalic response to sweet things, so merely tasting/expecting something really sweet can spike insulin:
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/406042 "The preabsorptive or cephalic phase insulin response, which lasts for ~10 min, is initiated by meal ingestion, as has been demonstrated in humans and rats"
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18556090 "In conclusion, the current data suggest that the sweeteners sucrose and saccharin activate a CPIR even when applied to the oral cavity only."
mexicangoober · -3 points · Posted at 19:05:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is a really poorly-worded, imprecise, mostly-false sentence that should never have been written. Try re-writing what you're trying to say with a lot more precision, and we can have a more meaningful conversation.
Roxytumbler · 26 points · Posted at 15:25:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
True. Just like you cant have more gas in the gas tank after driving it a mile unless you put more gas in.
Energy in...energy out. Everything else is fudging the properties of matter and energy.
beepbloopbloop · 18 points · Posted at 15:40:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sure, but it's a hell of a lot easier to maintain your energy and feel full when you're eating a balanced healthy diet than 2000 calories of Snickers and Twinkies.
morgoth95 · 2 points · Posted at 18:25:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
then again if you run 5k every day theres nothing wrong with eating carbs. i know quite a few people that do both a lot of sports and eat very few carbs. while this can work carbs are way better while doing anyhitng physical
Flucks · 1 points · Posted at 19:58:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Very true. I am running over 20 miles a week and eating a 1700 calorie a day paelo diet. I have lost 13 lbs in two weeks and I am not a big dude.
morgoth95 · 0 points · Posted at 20:05:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
1700 calories/day seems extremely little with that sort of exercise. im eating ~2200 a day with about 40min walking every day to and from school and im neither gaining nor losing any weight
Flucks · 1 points · Posted at 20:34:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's not great, but I wanted to slim down to run faster and farther. At 6'1 I still have about 10 more lbs to go to get to my goal of 185. I did have a Kind bar last Saturday before a race, though. I don't think I would have made it if I hadn't.
Chaotic-Catastrophe · 3 points · Posted at 16:17:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Except feeling full is a comfort, not a necessity.
beepbloopbloop · 11 points · Posted at 16:41:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But it makes losing weight easier. The diet that's best is the one you stick to.
Chaotic-Catastrophe · 4 points · Posted at 16:42:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't disagree, it's just that most people seem to think that if their tummy rumbles one time, it means they are literally starving and will die if they don't cram in as much food as possible in the next 20 minutes.
k_martinussen · -2 points · Posted at 17:34:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
people need to stop being such fucking whiny babies. You wont be hurt if your stomach rumbles, and you wont be hurt if you're feeling hungry. So stop crying and work through it.
Sav_ij · 1 points · Posted at 18:41:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
this is just mental though. for some reason people have equated "i could physically hold more food" to "im hungry". somehow people think that if they could eat then theyre hungry. take my fat family for example theyll eat like 2-3 pieces of pizza and every now and then ill try and steer them in the right direction and ask them if they need the 4th pieces and theyll actually say im still hungry like no you arent you clearly just dont know what hunger is anymore
NeverBeenStung · -5 points · Posted at 16:10:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This exactly. People (on this site especially) love to over simplify the concept of weight loss. For most people it really does matter what they are eating, and not purely how many calories it contains.
Merendino · 7 points · Posted at 16:22:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Physiologically no it doesn't, BUT psychologically it does.
NeverBeenStung · 2 points · Posted at 16:28:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Exactly. So my point stands, what they are eating matters for most people.
445nm · 4 points · Posted at 17:09:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'd go ahead and say that not most, but all people are eatting matter.
Merendino · 2 points · Posted at 16:34:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'll agree to your point and not be pedantic.
PatSays · 1 points · Posted at 18:41:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I find that difficult to believe. You really think there is no physiological response to the type of calorie being eaten that can impact one's weight? Where are you getting this idea from?
Merendino · 2 points · Posted at 18:45:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You need specific micronutrients certainly (which generally are not a source of calories), but you can lose weight by eating twinkies if you keep your mineral and vitamin intake at appropriate levels.
Relevant article He did ingest a protein shake too, as you need protein to live. But in general it's calories in vs calories out. Also it's REALLY goddamned hard to NOT eat protein.... and him living on Twinkies/snack cakes is not something people try to do.
PatSays · 1 points · Posted at 00:17:05 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I have read about that study before. I accept that calories in versus calories out matters. What I question is that your diet has no physiological consequences on weight. I think it is common knowledge that hormone changes can cause weight gain or loss. It's not difficult for me to imagine that your diet can impact your hormone levels either. None of that is "psychological" in nature as far as I am aware.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 18:49:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No it still matters what is being eaten. Different calories are metabolized in different ways with different effiencies, and with some limits on these metabolic pathways as well.
Yes it's calories in minus calories out, however no one gets exactly the calories listed on a package. There is differences in metabolism and what is used and when.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 18:43:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
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NeverBeenStung · 2 points · Posted at 18:47:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Body weight is 100% calories in/out, but when a person is actually trying to lose weight there is a huge difference in how those calories are utilized and their effect on satiety.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:52:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
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[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:53:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
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black_fire · -7 points · Posted at 15:59:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm sure there aren't any scientific studies on this.
I'll test the snickers and twinkies side if someone else wants to try the "balanced healthy diet" bullshit
OhioAgainstTheWorld7 · 62 points · Posted at 15:15:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
While yes this is factually true, I've always hated this. I could eat 2 Big Macs everyday and nothing else and likely lose weight. That does not mean that that's a healthy way to live.
[deleted] · 164 points · Posted at 15:22:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah but the idea isn't lose weight and be healthy, just lose weight.
applejacksparrow · 12 points · Posted at 17:55:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This guy gets it. Been eating microwave corndogs for the last two weeks and I'm down 30 pounds.
[deleted] · 13 points · Posted at 18:00:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My buddy was saying the other day if he had 3 wishes he'd wish to be able to eat whatever he wanted and not gain weight. I told him he could already do that, it's the quantity he's gotta look out for. I lost over 100lbs eating pretty healthy food in small quantities with huge quantities of liquor.
applejacksparrow · 1 points · Posted at 20:01:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Switching from beer to gin saved me so many calories.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:13:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oh yeah, I traded cocktails and martinis for liquor and diet soda. Pounds fell off
Plantbitch · 1 points · Posted at 20:43:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Isn't a martini just gin and olive juice though? Maybe with some vermouth on the ice?
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 02:15:17 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
There's tons of sweet martinis too, chocolate, French, pineapple upside down cake, purple haze, etc.
Plantbitch · 1 points · Posted at 02:18:22 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Gotcha
JesseTrue3 · 2 points · Posted at 19:28:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Microwave corndogs are pretty damn good.
Mr_Funsucker · 5 points · Posted at 18:01:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I lost 40 pounds eating fast food and diet soda, probably would have gotten scurvy if it wasn't for daily multivitamins. Probably don't have the best choleterol either.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 18:06:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yep, it's not even hard. Most fast food places gave their caloric info right on the menu, online in PDF form, and keep updated in apps too.
My cholesterol improved lol.
GeneralCottonmouth · 4 points · Posted at 18:17:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Then just smoke cigarettes. They're good appetite suppressants.
[deleted] · -1 points · Posted at 18:22:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There are appetite suppressants that won't give you cancer, but sure feel free to make a ridiculous meaningless point. I mean this is reddit, you're practically encouraged to be stupid.
DarkPhenomenon · 14 points · Posted at 17:07:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm confused on why you would hate on a pure fact. Losing weight and eating healthy are two entirely separate issues, both of which are very simple concepts. Want to eat healthy? Eat an apple instead of a big mac. Want to lose weight? Eat 2000 calories a day instead of 3000. Want to do both? Do both...
sarcasm_is_love · 71 points · Posted at 15:22:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I agree there's many factors that need to be considered for a healthy diet.
But my point was nobody is straight up incapable of losing weight.
spitfire9107 · 0 points · Posted at 18:36:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I heard there are medical conditions such as hyperthyroidism that prevent this. Then again most people dont have it so meh
sarcasm_is_love · 8 points · Posted at 18:48:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
According to thyroids.com the majority of weight gained during thyroid conditions is due to water and sodium retention. And even then you're talking 10 pounds or so at most.
_urasinner · 4 points · Posted at 19:27:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No that's wrong. Do you think a medical condition would prevent weight loss if the person was stranded on a desert island?
Those types of medical conditions affect your Basal Metabolic Rate by 10 to 15%... which is very easy to overcome just by eating the right amount for YOU, personally... Those people just have to eat a little less each day than someone without those conditions.
annshazaam · 1 points · Posted at 20:45:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Or take your thyroid medication, which corrects for the deficit.
spitfire9107 · 1 points · Posted at 22:03:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
ahh I get it so say I were obese and my bmr is 2000. With the medical condition it might be 1700 instead. Which might mean eating less but weight loss is still certainly doable.
CaptainObvious_1 · -7 points · Posted at 18:22:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No, but there are people that become insanely tired/lethargic if they are in a calorie deficit.
The whole "genetics" excuse has some merit.
aizxy · 8 points · Posted at 19:33:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Literally everyone is more tired and lethargic when on a calorie deficit. There are degrees to how much you'll be affected, but it just comes with the territory.
You're just going to have to decide what is more important to you, losing weight or avoiding feeling lethargic.
CaptainObvious_1 · 1 points · Posted at 20:24:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is literally the point I was making. Genetics can effect this.
AllUltima · 2 points · Posted at 19:30:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Most likely cause of that is spiking insulin, which generally moves blood sugar into fat/muscle, even if you're blood sugar isn't doing so well due to a low calorie deficit. Since you always have some blood sugar, insulin could conceivably have you gaining fat while possibly losing other body mass, and you'll feel like crap.
Several artificial sweeteners can probably raise insulin: Stevia, Splenda, Acesulfame K.
Also, there seems to be a cephalic response to sweet things, so merely tasting/expecting something really sweet can spike insulin:
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/406042 "The preabsorptive or cephalic phase insulin response, which lasts for ~10 min, is initiated by meal ingestion, as has been demonstrated in humans and rats"
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18556090 "In conclusion, the current data suggest that the sweeteners sucrose and saccharin activate a CPIR even when applied to the oral cavity only."
NeverBeenStung · -21 points · Posted at 16:12:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Honestly, I'm not seeing this in your parent comment.
dubman42 · 12 points · Posted at 16:33:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Did you read OC's comment?
CranialFlatulence · 5 points · Posted at 18:13:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I've highlighted the operative word for you. Notice he didn't say you will likely lose weight unless you have x disorder. He said confidently you will lose weight if you burn more calories than you consume. No exceptions.
[deleted] · 16 points · Posted at 15:58:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
OP never said anything about healthy.
LibertyTerp · 5 points · Posted at 15:22:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Which is why it's important to acknowledge it's as simple as calories in/out, but you should really eat things that fill you up like meat and vegetables so you aren't starving.
DHSean · 4 points · Posted at 15:29:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I have a serious issue when it comes to veggies.
I don't like any of the fuckers.
poo-boys-united · 3 points · Posted at 16:06:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I thought you were talking about vegetarians at first. I laughed but thought it was kind of mean haha.
I now realise you're talking about vegetables.
dubman42 · 2 points · Posted at 16:33:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Scurvy it is then!
DHSean · 1 points · Posted at 16:51:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Walking the plank one tooth at a time
Nefara · 1 points · Posted at 20:11:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I really don't either, but the trick is to never eat them on their own. Mix them into stews, sauces and other dishes so that their taste is always masked by the yummy stuff. Broccoli, carrots and green beans mixed into teriyaki egg fried rice is delicious, and you can mix spinach into pasta alfredo without it being offensive. Stews also have a great homogenizing effect where all of the tastes meld together, so even if you don't like something like celery on its own, mixed together in something like chicken noodle soup with onions and other veggies it can actually be quite nice.
guitar_vigilante · 7 points · Posted at 16:05:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It depends though. There was that professor who went on the McDonald's diet to prove that Supersize Me was wrong, and he both lost weight and became healthier.
OhioAgainstTheWorld7 · 10 points · Posted at 16:21:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm what way did he become healthier? There's a lot that goes into health other than weight.
malica77 · 6 points · Posted at 17:18:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Source He not only lost weight:
CranialFlatulence · 4 points · Posted at 18:17:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ah....so he played by a completely different set of rules than the Supersize Me guy. Apples & Oranges.
I've never seen Supersize Me, but didn't he have a few rules that he set for himself? For example, if they asked him if he wanted to try a certain meal or if they asked if he wanted to Super Size it he had to say yes?
guitar_vigilante · 3 points · Posted at 18:51:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Basically supersize me forced him to eat way more than he needed to eat, and he had to finish every meal, even if he was full. In the movie he throws up the first time he supersized a meal because he wasn't allowed to stop until it was finished. And it was a lot of food.
malica77 · 2 points · Posted at 19:47:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You're absolutely right, but Supersize Me blamed primarily (or at the very least equally) the quality of food, not the quantity of food, for his decline in health.
Rathum · 1 points · Posted at 18:47:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
IIRC, that's what it was. There has been criticism that it was not possible for him to gain as much wait as he did with the meals he claims he ate. He's never released his food logs AFAIK.
DarkPhenomenon · 1 points · Posted at 17:09:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Gunna need a source on that, I in no way believe someone would become healthier on a McDonalds diet.
malica77 · 3 points · Posted at 17:19:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
(copy and paste from above) Source He not only lost weight:
Dakarius · 0 points · Posted at 18:03:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It helps that Mcdonald's menu has gotten significantly healthier since supersize me was released.
cubs_070816 · 3 points · Posted at 17:41:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
to be fair, 2 big macs a day aren't nearly as bad as all the soda people typically drink to wash them down.
sunkzero · 2 points · Posted at 16:21:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Two Big Macs really isn't even that much calorifically. I understand what you're trying to say, but what you really just said is "eating about 1000 calories a day as a fully grown adult isn't a healthy way to live"... no it isn't, regardless of the source of those calories.
PinkyBlinky · 1 points · Posted at 17:53:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Being at a healthy weight is the biggest dietary barrier to good health in the western world. If you ate 2 Big Macs and a multivitamin every day I'd expect you to live on average longer than someone who eats 3500 calories of spinach a day (unless they actually burn it all off).
andysaurus_rex · 1 points · Posted at 18:25:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You could do that, take a few vitamin pills, and then you'd be good to go.
sonofaresiii · 1 points · Posted at 18:35:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Depends on your goals my man. Most people don't consider their goals beyond "I want to lose weight."
If that's your goal, calories in < calories out = weight loss.
To be honest most people won't stick to it long enough to get past "I've lost some weight but am still kinda fat" anyway, so as long as they're not missing out on vital vitamins and whatnot, it won't really matter. Those who do want to stick with it as a lifestyle change will seek out better knowledge than a one sentence post on reddit.
Druid51 · 1 points · Posted at 18:44:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Being overweight by a large margin is probably more unhealthy than a diet of nothing but 2 Big Macs a day and being at a healthy weight.
ExtraSmooth · 1 points · Posted at 17:53:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The trick is to replace calorie-dense, nutritionally empty foods (like red meats, sweets, sodas, processed grains and dairy) with lower calorie, nutritionally rich foods (fruits and especially vegetables). That way you can eat the same volume of food (and therefore trick your body into feeling full) while drastically reducing calories and at the same time improving nutrition intake.
xahsz · 1 points · Posted at 09:46:15 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Red meat and dairy are miles away from "nutritionally empty".
7thgradet3acher · 3 points · Posted at 17:21:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Where do i get the report of how many calories I am burning off?
[deleted] · 6 points · Posted at 17:43:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Use the Harris Benedict Formula. It's not exact, but it's a guideline.
_urasinner · 1 points · Posted at 19:28:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Guess and check... Set a target to lose 2 pounds of fat per week. If you lose less than that adjust down your daily caloric intake, if you lose more adjust up. Keep adjusting until you're losing at the rate you want to lose at.
EdgeBandanna · 3 points · Posted at 18:33:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Most people don't understand resting metabolic rate is the vast majority of calories burned during a day, and is much higher than what you will get from daily exercise.
This doesn't mean don't exercise, because every bit counts.
JayParty · 5 points · Posted at 18:23:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The trick to remember is different people will burn different amount of calories for the same activities.
Geta-Ve · 2 points · Posted at 20:20:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Honestly, for anyone curious; this statement is nothing more than a nicer way of saying 'stop fucking eating so much you idiot'.
Unless you're an athlete or or some other such person where your physical state is your job, then counting calories is an unneeded stress in your life.
Exercise, diet, and portion control are king. All three can bi maintained very simply, provided you work on one important factor, your motivation and / or will power.
Exercise: walk, run, bike, sports, yard work, house work, job related physical activity, etc. these are the easiest ways to get exercise.
Diet: cut out as much sugar as is reasonable. Pop is the easiest consumable form of sugar for most people, so that is a great place to start. If you don't want to cut it out completely then have one a day. Save it for dinner time or some other special time in the day. Let the singular coke be a treat. And that goes with most bad food. Convert it from the norm to something special. Worth saving. Other than that, use your common sense, and be honest with yourself, if you know it's probably not the greatest, then either don't eat it, or save it for another time.
Portion Control: simplest thing to change. Get smaller dishes. You'll be very surprised by what fills you when your dishes simply don't hold as much. If you're able, throw out all of your large dishes, or store them away from easy access.
Lastly, will power. I can only speak for myself in this regard, but I know this was the biggest issue for my weight loss journey. I'd went through 30 years of my life being unmedicated for mental illness; when I got medicated and started a physical job both things came together to help me lose over 90lbs. And during that time I wasn't even doing any portion control or changing my diet. But I was working my fucking ass off. Quite literally.
And remember, just because the solutions are simple, it doesn't mean the journey will be easy. But often times what is easy is not right. And what's right takes the most effort but yields the biggest rewards.
cubs_070816 · 4 points · Posted at 17:40:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
thank you. and while metabolic rate will indeed vary between two individuals, "your thyroid" doesn't make you fat. it's all the food you eat that's doing that.
Sargos · 5 points · Posted at 18:10:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If your thyroid makes you excessively hungry then you will eat more food. Blaming the food in that case is not helpful as it's the increased intake of food due to your thyroid that causes the increased weight.
It's like saying "Mental illness linked to gun ownership doesn't kill people, only bullets kill people."
cubs_070816 · 1 points · Posted at 18:18:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
this can easily be tested and treated successfully, in most cases. it's a piece to the puzzle and not addressing it is just another form of laziness.
tvdinner4me · 1 points · Posted at 20:03:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What treatments?
[deleted] · 8 points · Posted at 18:18:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
cubs_070816 · 3 points · Posted at 18:21:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
so eat less. 200 calories per day is roughly = to one soda. if i had a medical condition that affected my metabolism i'd be even MORE aware of what i put in my body, i wouldn't just shrug and supersize it cause of my "thyroid condition."
drewsoft · 2 points · Posted at 19:18:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But your original point was wrong...
cubs_070816 · 0 points · Posted at 19:34:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
...and yet your edit acknowledges that "technically" i was right. make up your mind.
and a 200 calorie swing is not nearly as big as you think. certainly not big enough to justify obesity due to an easily diagnosed and treatable medical condition.
eat less. exericse more. the end.
drewsoft · 1 points · Posted at 19:43:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm not /u/hotrox_mh
200 calories every single day is an enormous swing. 20 pounds a year, as they pointed out, every year.
cubs_070816 · 2 points · Posted at 19:54:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
my bad.
still...i wasn't wrong. calories dictate weight gain/loss. abnormal thyroid is a factor in some people -- a factor to overcome by being even MORE diligent about what you eat, not less.
HHcougar · 1 points · Posted at 19:55:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
no its not
tvdinner4me · -1 points · Posted at 20:01:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You said your thyroid won't make you fat. At 20lbs extra a year for the exact same amount of work as a person without the issue, I would argue it does contribute to the weight gain.
cubs_070816 · 3 points · Posted at 20:09:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
metabolism varies from person to person; obviously the thryoid plays a part. in my experience, people overstate it and use it as a convenient excuse to eat chicken fried steak and wash it down with 30 oz of soda.
malica77 · 1 points · Posted at 20:47:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But also keep in mind that would be for untreated thyroid conditions. If you're on medication to regulate your thyroid then you're right back to being within a normal range again.
rmphys · 1 points · Posted at 18:25:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'd say it's pretty insignificant. That's less than caloric needs can vary by person without thyroid imbalances.
Creep_in_a_T-shirt · 8 points · Posted at 15:32:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
While technically true, this is a gross oversimplification. The macro and micro nutrient composition of your food affects your metabolism, how the food is stored, and your satiety.
poo-boys-united · 35 points · Posted at 15:36:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
it's not that gross. Your body may store different foods more than others but over a sustained period of time, if there is a calorie deficit, you will lose weight.
BurningCactusRage · -3 points · Posted at 17:41:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This still is dependent on a number of things. People have had huge weight losses following a rebalancing of bacteria in their digestive tracts. It's not just as simple as intake < outtake for everyone.
If there you have a straight calorie deficiency then technically, yes, you lose weight, but the amount of calories your body consumes is variable in addition to how people vary in how many calories they use.
Edit: forgot about reddit's war on nuance
voxanimus · 6 points · Posted at 18:21:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
yes, it literally is as simple as intake < outtake. All of your comments are about sustaining the weight loss, or optimizing the amount of weight lost, etc.
regardless of who you are, what your genetic makeup is, or literally any biological factor, if you eat less calories than you burn, you will lose weight.
any attempt to argue the contrary is wrong.
BurningCactusRage · 1 points · Posted at 18:40:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When it comes to losing weight, of course on an individual level, that is objectively the best way to lose weight. However, this doesn't describe what intake even is, because people process food with varying rates of efficiency - there's plenty of people that just eat more but there's people who eat an average amount and simply digest the energy more efficiently.
voxanimus · 1 points · Posted at 19:05:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
that's all OP is trying to say. and this statement is true. complicating factors like "amount of effective calories vs. amount of labeled calories" etc. affect estimation of intake, but they don't change the truth of the advice itself.
a financial equivalent for this advice would be "make more money than you spend and you'll always be out of debt." "real world complications" make it difficult to adhere to that maxim. as advice itself, the maxim may not be useful to many people. regardless, the maxim itself is incontrovertibly true.
same thing here.
bluespirit442 · 1 points · Posted at 18:45:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's how you show people you don't know what you're talking about.
voxanimus · 1 points · Posted at 18:51:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
please, then, refute the point. i am saying that "calories in < calories out = weight loss" is incontrovertibly true. because it is.
i can say a few other scientific facts are also incontrovertibly true.
acceleration due to gravity at sea level on planet Earth is 9.8 m/s2.
the speed of light is constant.
the human body cannot create or destroy matter.
the second law of thermodynamics is true.
none of these can be disproven. attempts to do so are wrong.
CICO is a fundamental truth. it's at the same level as the others in that list. but, if you'd like to tell me how it is wrong, go ahead.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:55:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
voxanimus · 1 points · Posted at 20:58:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
9.779 and 9.819 both round to 9.8.
i wasn't aware of the new research into the CMB; thanks for pointing it out.
i never said that matter must be conserved in all systems. the human body, though, doesn't have a means of converting between matter and energy. i'm not aware of any nuclear fission or fusion processes occurring in biochemical reactions. "biophoton" emission (which appears to be a rather nebulous topic in and of itself) isn't evidence of creation or destruction of matter. more specifically, photon emission itself (for example, of the sort seen in luciferase/luciferin bioluminescence) doesn't constitute creation or destruction of matter. nuclei aren't being broken down or built up inside a human body.
i realize that i may have been a bit ambitious in attempting to portray the list of things i did as "incontrovertible truths," but pedantic quibbling about the finer points of their validity doesn't disprove the idea that they're virtually nomothetic propositions. CICO is also a nomothetic proposition.
just a few thoughts on your thoughts.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 22:37:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
voxanimus · 1 points · Posted at 10:31:53 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
i submit that i may have been foolish or bullheaded in attempting to declare some "bulletproof truths." the existence of any such truths is ultimately only ancillary to the original question i was discussing, which is whether or not "calories in < calories out = weight loss" is true or not.
i have to thank you for bringing up some of the points you did; i never (until now) actually stopped to consider the relativistic idea of the mass-energy equivalence and its implications on photon emission, or "matter creation" outside of nuclear reactions.
i still hold that nuclear reactions are definitely not happening (to any significant extent) inside human bodies. as a biologist, photon emission in biological reactions is considered almost exclusively in terms of excitation and subsequent return of electrons to ground states. here's an example for the luciferase system i mentioned earlier. i guess when i said that "matter" is not created, i meant that atoms are not being created de novo inside human beings, as you can see in that mechanism. relativistic mass as a concept in and of itself is not without its own controversy. there are few, if any, biological frameworks that account for anything other than invariant mass. the invariant, rest mass of a biological system is not altered by any of the reactions that occur within it.
science is certainly not a matter of faith, and the discoveries of science are important precisely because they are true regardless of whether or not people choose to "believe" in them. i wasn't trying to take up the mantle of nature's scion or whatever.
finally, i don't think that it's always necessary that we as a society discuss the finer points of science. macroscopic, gross phenomena may not be as reductively explanatory as more nuanced treatments, but that doesn't make them any less true. indeed, i find that granular phenomena are often easier for people to understand. launching into discussions of entropy and thermodynamics in an attempt to argue why caloric deficiency is important to weight loss is almost perniciously complicated.
at any rate, thanks for making me think.
Ninjaintrouble · 1 points · Posted at 20:06:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How can an attrmpt to disprove something ever be wrong. Isn't science based on trying to disprove theories ?
Sav_ij · -2 points · Posted at 18:49:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
no it isnt
tvdinner4me · 0 points · Posted at 19:57:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't think you are comprehending what they are trying to say. Less calories in than out = weight loss, but there are a variety of factors affecting both to where it can be difficult to judge if/how much you'll lose based on a number on your food
poo-boys-united · 2 points · Posted at 20:03:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I did comprehend that however my point still stands.
Zoesan · 22 points · Posted at 16:12:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Here's the magic: your body can't magically create energy. So if less in than used, you lose weight. There's nothing else to it.
bluespirit442 · 2 points · Posted at 18:50:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How about the fact that the amount of energy each need is variable from day to day and depending of their physiology?
About the fact that calories are very imprecise?
About the fact that the average caloric need of people is based on public poll of how much people eat and not on anything more concrete?
How about the fact that calories are good to estimate the energy output of a food powered steam engine, but that we don't burn food (that's how they find how many calories are in food) and that biology and biochemistry is better than thermodynamics to explain how food is processed by the body?
mags87 · 9 points · Posted at 19:11:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Your first point is irrelevant. If you burn 2500 calories on Monday and consume 2000 calories then you have a deficit. If on Tuesday you burn 3000 calories and consume2500 calories you still have a deficit and you will lose weight.
Our measurement of calories may not be perfect, but if you estimate that you burn 2500 calories but its really 2400, and you estimate that you consumed 2000 calories and you really consumed 2100, you are at a deficit and will lose weight.
The average caloric need of people is not based on a poll, its based on research.
I have no clue what you are thinking about on your last point. Calories are consumed fuel for your body, fat is stored fuel. If you use more fuel than you consumed, you use your stored fuel. You have a deficit and you will lose weight.
All of your arguments are "What if I get my intake/outtake estimates wrong?" which is completely irrelevant to the fact that if you consume less than you use you will lose weight.
introspeck · 1 points · Posted at 21:44:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And that your gut microbiome has a lot to do with what gets taken up by your digestive system - and that junk foods can alter the makeup of the biome, in a way that makes it easier to get fat?
Calories-in-calories-out is true overall, but just the calorie number on a package has only a vague relationship with what actually gets absorbed and used by your body.
bluespirit442 · 1 points · Posted at 03:59:39 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Amen.
You can't build a lego tower without lego bricks.
But to know how tall of a tower you can build, it doesn't help to know how well they burn.
Zoesan · 0 points · Posted at 19:23:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So don't undercut by 200 calories, undercut by 700+?
They're a more refined tool, but they don't invalidate basic physics.
bluespirit442 · 1 points · Posted at 03:54:21 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Errors can easily go in the 300 to 500 range if I remember.
But in all case, calories are still a bad measure.
Digestion is not simple thermodynamics, and biology or biochemistry do not break any laws.
Of course you can't build a lego tower without lego bricks. My point is that CICO and calories in general are extremely bad at giving us any useful information.
Our body don't "burn" anything like a steam engine does. 2000 calories of wood can be calculated in the same way as 2000 calories of potatoes. But one won't power us.
That is because digestion is all about breaking down molecules, osmosis, enzimes, getting things to go through cells, dissolution, gut bacterias, hormones, etc.
And all nutriments necessitate a different process to be usable by our bodies and create different reactions when doing so.
Nothing get burned. And once inside us? Still nothing is burned. Chemical reactions, that have nothing to do with combustion, happens.
If labels told us about how many ATP a certain food make us produce, now that could be useful. Somewhat. But calories are of no use.
Zoesan · 1 points · Posted at 17:43:53 on August 17, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's still super simple.
Eat less, be fat less.
Chaotic-Catastrophe · 12 points · Posted at 16:23:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
While technically true, this is a gross overcomplication. The macro and micro nutrient composition of your food affect metabolism, storage, and satiety way less than you seem to think.
"Eat less = lose weight" is about as complicated as it needs to be for the majority of people.
Tattycakes · -2 points · Posted at 18:20:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Right, but you put someone on 1200 calories of lean meat, wholegrains, veg and fruit, and put the other person on 1200 calories of pizza and Mars bars and we'll see who can maintain their weight loss the longest.
_urasinner · 2 points · Posted at 19:35:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If they both have the same TDEE they will both lose weight at the same rate.
You're talking about health, not weight loss, which is different. You can eat like shit if it helps you lose a bunch of weight quickly, it's still healthier to stop being obese even if it means eating nothing but ice cream the whole time. Your body has months worth of most micronutrients saved up. Once you lose the weight then worry about eating healthily.
_urasinner · 2 points · Posted at 19:31:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
None of that really matters at all if you have willpower and diligently record your weight every day and keep graphs and adjust your intake up or down to reach the rate of weight loss you desire... I would know I lost 60 pounds in 30 weeks intentionally at an average rate of 2 pounds (7000 calories) per week, it took the first several weeks to get it right but it wasn't difficult.
JPJP_ · 2 points · Posted at 15:31:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You mean I can eat 700calories of fast food a day and not get fat!?! Wow!!!
Some people seems to think fast food =get fat or overweight...
Pls it's because fast food is calories dense. I'm amazed at how ill informed the general population is at nutritional related stuff.
buckus69 · 3 points · Posted at 16:07:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well, technically, yes, but I'm sorry all you had to eat today was the small fries...
satysin · 3 points · Posted at 16:21:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It is like your body is some kind of machine that requires energy (food) in order to work and so not giving it enough direct energy (food) means it needs to use the energy in its reserve tanks (fat stores).
Shocking!
hotrox_mh · 2 points · Posted at 18:14:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Then explain to me how I can be so fat AND so out of energy all the time?
/s, but also not /s
Sav_ij · 2 points · Posted at 18:48:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
just because your body has fat stores doesnt mean it isnt deprived of other nutrients. for the next month just throw out half of whatever youre eating and then substitute it with 2 meal replacement drinks per day and a multivitamin and youll see a massive improvement in the way you feel and a drop in bodyweight
having fat stores doesnt = full of energy
satysin · 2 points · Posted at 19:21:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
One of the reasons is because it requires more energy to carry all that fat around. Plus it is probably very likely you don't do any real muscle building exercise so you are using weak muscles to move yourself around. And I would guess you have some vitamin deficiency which can make you lathagic. Not to mention any medication you might be on.
el_monstruo · 3 points · Posted at 17:23:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
True but there are some complexities there that make it much less simplistic than it sounds.
Edit for those that downvote me and these are just some of the complexities:
Calorie counts listed are often wrong... sometimes very wrong.
Food gets processed differently during digestion bringing in more complexity as well which further complexes the first point.
Some people are just ignorant on the very premise of calories in/calories out.
There is also the mental health aspect.
Hell, there have been conflicting studies that saying being overweight might not be a bad thing.
sarcasm_is_love · 4 points · Posted at 17:38:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's more complex when you factor in your micronutrient needs and whatever dietary restrictions to maintain good health.
The losing weight aspect is still about caloric consumption
el_monstruo · -1 points · Posted at 17:54:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Edited to include sources...
Calorie counts listed are often wrong... sometimes very wrong.
Food gets processed differently during digestion bringing in more complexity as well which further complexes the first point.
Some people are just ignorant on the very premise of calories in/calories out.
There is also the mental health aspect.
Hell, there have been conflicting studies that saying being overweight might not be a bad thing.
It is a lot more complex and I could go on but there are things which throw off the adage of calories in/calories out.
voxanimus · 7 points · Posted at 18:30:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
none of these articles refute the simple, incontrovertible truth of calories in < calories out = weight loss.
incorrect labeling of calories doesn't change anything. if your actual caloric intake is less than your caloric expenditure, you will still lose weight. incorrect labeling of calories might make it difficult to exactly track what your intake is, but that doesn't disprove the original idea.
no amount of differential processing can increase the amount of calories contained in a food above its theoretical maximum. again, this really is just the same as your labeling point. it doesn't matter how many calories you think you are consuming, because that isn't what the original point is saying.
the human body cannot create energy. if you are not consuming enough energy to meet your needs, it will draw on your fat stores to make up the difference.
this is the truth. there is nothing that can "throw off the adage of calories in/calories out." if it's hard to gauge the amount of calories you're intaking, overestimate. or underestimate the amount you're burning, and exercise more.
el_monstruo · 4 points · Posted at 18:45:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Where in the ever loving fuck did I attempt to refute it? I even said TRUE in my initial post. It is more complex, that is my point and the only point I was trying to make and everything I listed makes it more complex.
If you eat 1500 calories a day, based on what the food is labeled at but that food actually has 20% more calories than what is labeled guess what, that is 300 calories that are now unaccounted for. That's over 3 miles you need to walk for a 180 pound person. How do you find out how much is listed in the food you eat? Guess what, even more complex to do that. You could weigh it at home but are your scales calibrated? Did your fruits and veggies all come from the same place? Did you cook it? All of these things and more can affect the amount of calories in foods.
Driving a car is as simple as using a accelerator/brakes/and steering wheel. I know it is a lot more complex than just that though. No different with eating really, calories in/calories out will help in gaining/maintaining/losing weight but it isn't as simple as it sounds.
voxanimus · 4 points · Posted at 18:59:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
we're getting into the realm of "actionable weight loss advice" vs. "CICO as a principle." if that's what you're trying to argue--that CICO isn't actionable advice--then that's a different discussion.
in my opinion, it is. you just have to punish yourself more than you'd like. can't tell how many calories are in a food? overestimate. can't tell how many calories you burned today? underestimate. that way any "calculated" caloric deficit will be less than your actual caloric deficit, and your weight loss will likely be faster than you anticipate it to be.
it's going to suck, and you're going to feel like shit, but it'll work.
el_monstruo · 2 points · Posted at 19:11:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I am arguing CICO as a principle is complex. It sounds simple but it is a lot more complex than it sounds. That is all. It is actionable advice but it isn't as easy as it sounds. There are many nuances that can throw that advice off.
[deleted] · 4 points · Posted at 16:10:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But mug genetics and low calories diets that made me fat. DIETS WERE A LOSER GAME FOR ME
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:54:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
sarcasm_is_love · 6 points · Posted at 18:59:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
We're not talking about putting a man on Jupiter. We're talking reducing the amount of food people eat. Everyone can do it. People choosing not to is the problem.
LovingThatPlaid · 1 points · Posted at 15:52:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I hate when people complain, “Oh I’ve hit a weight loss plateau,” “I can’t get those last stubborn pounds off.” Well listen, that person, it’s because you aren’t eating at a deficit.
For anyone that this is happening to, reevaluate your macros. There is a high possibility that you 1.) aren’t hitting your proper macros for the weight that you are at, or 2.) Are eating more calories than your body needs for maintenance because you haven’t adjusted your diet after losing a bunch of weight
mc8675309 · 11 points · Posted at 16:05:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Or your activity level has dropped off in some small ways because your diet isn't efficient at providing energy for the energy you consume.
Keeping your activity level up while cutting calories is hard.
LABS_Games · 1 points · Posted at 20:21:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No kidding. Near the end of a cut, I feel noticeably weaker, even if I'm still in good shape.
yolochengbeast · 1 points · Posted at 15:08:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
mind blown
beepbloopbloop · 9 points · Posted at 15:39:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
also effective, but probably not worth the side effects
PM_ME_STEAMGAMES_PLS · 0 points · Posted at 15:35:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
fat blown.
Donttakethebait111 · 1 points · Posted at 17:56:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Would you mind explaining how this is not true? not claiming it is true, but it seems logical to me that it would be true.
_urasinner · 4 points · Posted at 19:37:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It is true, he was saying it is true, and most people don't understand it.
Donttakethebait111 · 1 points · Posted at 13:27:55 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
oh right I thought I was in a "misconceptions"-thread I guess when I wrote that comment, thanks.
Y0D98 · 1 points · Posted at 18:34:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm quite confident less than 90% of people don't understand this though
Sav_ij · 1 points · Posted at 18:37:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
ive literally had to take this a step further and explain to overweight people like listen dude. touch your arm. is it cold or warm? yes i know its warm thats because youre warm blooded your body burns mass and generates heat. this is a physical certainty. unless youve gone cold you will never convince me that youll maintain body weight without consuming the appropriate mass. this is why things like reptiles can go such long periods without food
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:38:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oh my god, yes!
Crevices · 1 points · Posted at 18:38:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
was about to reply calories in vs. calories out but you beat me to it. i was that person once that also believed in the whole "junk food is bad" "fat is bad" but i didn't learn or know any better. i love when people still preach their bs and get offended when you try to educate them.
MakingItWorthit · 1 points · Posted at 18:52:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Probably not 90%, but still a large number.
PhillipJCoulson · 1 points · Posted at 19:04:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Witch!!!!
trigonomitron · 1 points · Posted at 19:05:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is how I lose weight and still eat that ice cream sandwich.
My gf keeps trying to convince me that it's the quality of the food I eat that matters. What she doesn't get is that she's only right to a certain degree.
I'll fill up on high fiber and high protein foods, and at the end of the day, if I have some kcal left in my budget, I can have anything that fits and keeps me under.
I don't need "cheat days." My gf goes over on cheat days and gives me a hard time for staying on track.
dannixxphantom · 1 points · Posted at 19:16:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
FitTea won't give you a six pack when you're 120lbs overweight.
And neither will Sketchers shape ups.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:38:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You obviously didn't take the question literally. Practically everyone knows this is true. It's just much easier said than done.
Sybre · 1 points · Posted at 19:40:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This may be true, but is also harder to do than people think. Foods can legally be 20% off their listed calorie amount. Eating something that doesn't really have a specific calorie amount like produce, meats, and fruits can be even more off. One pound of chicken can have more than double the calories of another pound of chicken.
Most people understand calories in calories out, but it's always never that simple.
ReallyForeverAlone · 1 points · Posted at 19:43:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"You can't outrun a bad diet." is another one that's related. Not everyone has the time to burn off 2500 calories in a day so it needs to be stated that just because you gym 3 times a week but eat nothing but fatty foods it doesn't mean you're healthy.
Ninja_Arena · 1 points · Posted at 19:55:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You will lose fat and muscle. Maybe you could retain more water somehow to counteract that. Not arguing with your overall point, just wondering if this is possible
sarcasm_is_love · 1 points · Posted at 19:58:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You certainly can retain a lot of water, especially for people with thyroid conditions, but in those cases you're looking at 10 pounds or so of water at most.
MartyVanB · 1 points · Posted at 19:56:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Perhaps but better to do No Carbs No Sugar and not worry about the calories so much
RawRooster · 1 points · Posted at 19:57:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sugar =/= fat. Also true for anything. Just have a varied diet and you will be satisfied and your need for food will likely go away.
quickscope10 · 1 points · Posted at 20:01:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"I am just big boned I can't do anything about it"
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:09:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Also, eating when you're hungry and stopping when you're full. Way less annoying/stressful than counting calories. Weight problems can be psychological!
AntVo2448 · 633 points · Posted at 15:26:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Don't click on the goddamn flashing "Download Now!" button
10000pelicans · 94 points · Posted at 17:26:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
90% of old people do this, but do 90% of all people?
StaticTaco · 38 points · Posted at 18:18:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If the Internet has taught me anything searching for obscure programs and whatnot, it's that the small hyperlink has the download, not the big green button.
Pm-Your-Nice-Tits · 14 points · Posted at 19:07:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Good point. And also know there there are Free Horny Singles in your area.
DiabolicSpartan · 7 points · Posted at 19:37:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And they want to meet you!
altech6983 · 3 points · Posted at 19:45:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This actually worked against me once. As per usual I was searching all over the page for the correct link, certainly the big green button wasn't correct.
It was and I wasted five minutes because of other scamming jackasses.
RosemaryCrafting · 2 points · Posted at 23:08:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
At first I thought you were talking about the free horny singles working lmao.
altech6983 · 1 points · Posted at 00:09:05 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
lmao
edwinnum · 1 points · Posted at 20:52:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
90% of people that don't have addblock installed.
giver_of_the_snark · 6 points · Posted at 18:10:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Clicked the non flashing one (of 20) and now my pc is running slow. When will you be over to look at it?
AllAboutTheKitteh · 4 points · Posted at 18:37:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Most often if you can drag the big flashing download button it's the wrong one.
PissedFurby · 3 points · Posted at 18:39:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
why not? who doesn't want free software that could earn me $20k per month from home?
fast_cherry_bomb · 3 points · Posted at 18:48:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Instructions unclear, penis stuck in ransomware
dannixxphantom · 2 points · Posted at 19:20:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Tip: if you don't know if the download/play/whatever button is real, click and drag it. If it's an Ad/bullshit button, a little ghost image will drag with the mouse. If it's a real button, it won't drag, or a 🚫 will show up when you try.
growlingbear · 1 points · Posted at 19:46:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But I wanna download...NOW!
Comprised_of_haggis · 1334 points · Posted at 15:02:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Patent examiner here. The patent system. I see a ton of arm chair lawyers on reddit talking about how stupid/terrible/expensive patents are, how dumb examiners are, and how broken the system is. Most of them seem to have read one article and consider themselves an expert.
Our system isn't perfect, but it works amazingly well when you consider an office with around 10k examiners handles every single US patent. The USPTO is also self funded. Not a single dollar of your taxes pays for my salary. In fact, congress actually takes money from us (about 10%) to pay for other programs.
This should be obvious, but most examiners are not stupid. At minimum, we each have an accredited bachelor's degree in engineering, math, physics, or chemistry. This is in addition to a probationary year of learning to meet the quota and tons of detailed legal training with enough classroom time to qualify as a master's degree. Many new employees quit during this period because they can't apply the training or can't handle the quota.
Which leads to the expense issue. Yes, patents are expensive. Your examiner is probably a engineer that graduated with a 3.5 or better and has years of legal training and negotiation experience. You also have the Board (often made of very senior former examiners with law degrees) that deals with appeals. These employees are not cheap to keep around.
As an examiner, it sucks seeing us bashed through the Washington Post because one examiner went off the rails and cussed out an attorney or a few idiots abused the time sheet. If you remember that fiasco, the inspector general got involved and the USPTO is now spending millions on revamping our entire time and attendance policy and implementing employee tracking. What the Washington Post didn't say was that we were at least 98% compliant even after digging through every possible abuse and counting "absent time" as any time away from the computer or main building (God forgive me if I went and read a case in the cafeteria by a window or went and asked a coworker in another building for his take on something).
All this being said, it's a cool job and the system works efficiently and amazingly well, especially compared to a couple decades ago. I'm happy to answer any questions people have.
Edit: spelling and grammar- please forgive me, I'm on mobile.
HonkersTim · 397 points · Posted at 16:01:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is all well and good, but can you give us one acceptable explanation on how trolls get patents on blindingly obvious things?
We've all seen dozens of examples where the patent was totally and completely frivolous, yet was granted anyway.
Comprised_of_haggis · 262 points · Posted at 16:13:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Mistakes happen and the system isn't perfect. If there are a dozen examples out of 300k granted patents each year, we're doing pretty good. Not to mention, the "blindingly obvious" things are not hurting the economy.
Patent trolls that get obscure patents, do nothing, and then wait for infringement are the issue. While everyone agrees something needs to be done, the solution has to come via legislation and no one agrees what form it should take. The most obvious is to require a working prototype, but that doesn't work for fast paced fields. They need the flexibility to patent inventions they think should work and develop them if they are financially viable.
Also, frivolous patents can be challenged in court if the need arises.
ExtraSmooth · 31 points · Posted at 17:58:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I feel like the patent troll thing is more of an issue because of our legal system which makes it inordinately expensive to defend yourself in court even if you have an airtight case. A well funded corporation can just drag cases out until the little guys run out of money
Ikinoki · 37 points · Posted at 17:38:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Challenging in court is not cheap.
Requiring prototypes would be great. But most of all the most important part is that before challenging in court you must try to come to consensus. A patent without prototype allowing a maximum of 30% from each usage would be great.
[deleted] · 28 points · Posted at 18:49:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[removed]
_SONNEILLON · 19 points · Posted at 19:25:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes but if you're going to patent something to protect your manufacture of it maybe you should prove you can manufacture it first
jammerjoint · 12 points · Posted at 20:53:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's a naive way of looking at it. Prototypes can take years, and that's more than enough time for someone else to scoop it. Furthermore, the designer is often not a fabrication expert. Some folks just want to sell or license their invention for someone else to make. Also, if you present it to a potential partner and you don't have a patent, what's to stop them from stealing it then and there? Some patents are also for multi-million or even billion-dollar projects. Patent should absolutely come first before that kind of financial investment.
ER_nesto · 2 points · Posted at 22:34:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If I patent a new interstellar propulsion system, that works in theory, but I don't have the funds to get a prototype into space, that shouldn't stop me from getting my patent and licensing it to someone who has the capital
_SONNEILLON · 3 points · Posted at 23:23:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm not really into the whole capitalism thing so i won't put too much thought into this but couldn't you just have 2 stages of patent? One which lasts maybe 5 years, which can be upgraded to a complete patent if you provide a prototype? That would stop patent trolls
ER_nesto · 2 points · Posted at 23:25:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's great, until a patent troll patents something that you're just about to push to market, and will be irrelevant by the time the first stage has expired
_SONNEILLON · 3 points · Posted at 23:56:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah well that's still a better solution than what we have right now which allows you to keep it for up to 80 years or something
KakariBlue · 1 points · Posted at 02:37:28 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Which goes back to the top of this thread, patents are very time limited (varying a few years by country but 20y is a decent starting point). You may be thinking of copyright which is essentially forever plus one day.
ISw3arItWasntM3 · 1 points · Posted at 07:39:18 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's a trade off. We want to incentivize people to innovate, but we also don't want patent trolls burdening down the system. It's entirely possible the net cost of innovations that never get made by a heavier patent system outweigh the costs the patent trolls place on the system. It's not as simple as you're trying to make it seem.
jediminer543 · 3 points · Posted at 20:04:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Aye but then the expense is on the people creating a patent, not on the people being slapped around the face with a patent.
It would also make it harder to troll, expanation incoming, and also would slightly reduce patent eval cost.
On to the harder to troll example, I cite /r/place, which was hard to troll because it required many people and lots of time to do. Similarly, if you are required to create a prototype to get a patent, creating trolly prototype is far harder, and more expensive.
ISw3arItWasntM3 · 3 points · Posted at 07:44:13 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
The expense is also felt by every single person who's life wasn't improved because some innovation wasn't created due to a more front loaded patent system. Imagine if nobody invented the lithium ion battery because the patent system made it too expensive to create. We'd still likely be using Nokia phones. That's a real cost we pay (not having smartphones).
Whether that cost outweighs the costs the patent trolls place on us as a society is what we should be debating. I won't claim to know one way or the other but I'll defer to the guy who works full time in the patent industry over the general sentiment on /r/technology.
CyberBill · 0 points · Posted at 20:07:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you're not able to make a prototype, you won't be able to make the product, either.
The only issue I see is that somebody who invents something in their garage would have to make a prototype first in order to patent it, even if they intend on selling/licensing the patent to someone else and not manufacturing themselves. But even in that case, most people want to see a prototype before they license the tech.
I think our patent system should disincentivize people who patent something just to sit on it.
ISw3arItWasntM3 · 2 points · Posted at 07:45:52 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't think anybody disagrees with your sentence. The hard part is how to do that without hamstringing real innovation. Because the gains from innovations that never are created might outweigh the gains from reducing the number/efficacy of patent trolls.
Jaguarenvy · 2 points · Posted at 18:59:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Patents have to be reduced to practice. Not just an idea.
kourkour · 7 points · Posted at 19:10:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My sister is a european patent and UK patent attorney and she was in the conference that decides the standards for 3g/4g, she wasn't thrilled with the way things were being done and the way patents work was a big part of that. Just people from companies wasting hours upon hours putting their idiocy in the minutes of the conference in hopes of their patented bullshit becoming part of the standard and making their big bucks, which DOES end up hurting us either in decreased performance or costs. Not a rant about patent attorneys per se, but still.
oldmanjoe · 29 points · Posted at 17:41:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Take a look at mobile phone patents from apple or andriod or any other provider, and there are obvious things hurting the economy. You just have large companies patenting ridiculous things, then allowing each other access to those ridiculous patents. It doesn't take much to google, and it certainly doesn't help the consumer to patent "auto correct", especially since it's shit, and basically a dictionary that's been in use of years prior to the patent.
Magstine · 22 points · Posted at 18:43:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I feel like calling auto-correct "blindingly obvious" involves a significant amount of hindsight bias. If it was "blindingly obvious" than Word 95 probably would have included it. Yeah its not some massive breakthrough that revolutionized the field, but a concept that is simple to explain and implement is not necessarily "blindingly obvious." For example, the D-Pad on video game controllers is a very simple and fundamental input system, but worse systems were used for decades before its implementation.
Dascandy · 3 points · Posted at 19:58:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Word 95 did include it. I quote:
When memory and processing power became abundant, spell checking was performed in the background in an interactive way, such as has been the case with the Sector Software produced Spellbound program released in 1987 and Microsoft Word since Word 95.
Magstine · 7 points · Posted at 20:15:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A spell checker is NOT auto-correct. Word 95's background spell checker resulted in those squiggly red lines that then provided a list of words that it thought you meant. It did not auto-correct.
Dascandy · 0 points · Posted at 20:18:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
... Good point.
I've not used it in Word 95 because it was useless, and I still loathe any auto-correct because it's horrible. I've barely seen any times that it actually helped, and most of the time it did anything it ruined the complete message by converting one word to garbage. I do recall it having an auto-correct option, but I don't have the CD ready to try it out.
ER_nesto · 1 points · Posted at 22:37:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I love autocorrect, it allows me to type when I'm not looking at the screen, or to simply swipe my finger across the letters I want, when you're having multiple conversations both in-person and online, it makes life a thousand times easier
oldmanjoe · 5 points · Posted at 18:50:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
we had spell check and grammar checker before cell phones. It seems pretty blindingly obvious to me. But there are other cell phone patents as well, this was just a top of the head moment. Notification bar is one too. Didn't Apple try and patent rounded corners too or something ridiculous?
Jaguarenvy · 14 points · Posted at 18:56:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You couldn't patent the idea of auto-correct. You could have patented the method of auto-correct though. It isn't 'what' it is 'how' that is the invention.
Magstine · 13 points · Posted at 19:07:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But auto-correct isn't just a spell check or grammar check, and a simple spell check or grammar check is not what the auto-correct patent covers. The auto-correct patent only includes the feature that it corrects automatically as you type, and that is the part that is not "blindingly obvious."
The famous "rounded edge" patent is both an outlier and CONSIDERABLY more narrow in scope than that silly Verge article would leave you to believe. But the real problem with it is it should be covered by Trademark/dress, not Patent.
murasan · 5 points · Posted at 20:01:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The rounded corners was the subject of a design patent, not a utility patent. Companies get design patents all the time.
oldmanjoe · 0 points · Posted at 20:21:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Call it a different name, but it's still an abuse of power at the detriment to consumers. Which was my original point.
murasan · 6 points · Posted at 20:36:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Okay, but you're making a case for invalidating patents based on obviousness, which is a fundamental element of patentability as it applies to utility patents. However, obviousness does not apply to design patents.
A design such as rounded corners on a mobile communications device can be seen as blindingly obvious to a person of ordinary skill, but it is still very much patentable as a design.
To be sure, you can certainly make a case that design patents should not be allowed under federal law. But it makes no sense for obviousness to factor into that decision.
oldmanjoe · 1 points · Posted at 21:18:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm responding to the comment that "blindingly obvious" patents don't hurt the economy. So in your final statement, you knowledge that these patents should not be allowed, but argue that if they were allowed my example would be fitting of a patent.
My whole contention is they shouldn't be giving out this kind of patent because it does economic damage. As well as other "obvious" patents.
murasan · 1 points · Posted at 22:03:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You have completely misunderstood what I said. As it stands there doesn't seem to be a point to continue this discussion any further. Have a good evening.
sooper_genius · 1 points · Posted at 20:04:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'll agree that "blindingly obvious" is not a good term. Instead, I'd suggest that the rise of auto-correct was brought about more by computing power and larger data spaces available.
You need megabytes of data to hold a dictionary, unless you want to thrash to disk at every keystroke. For example, the Word 2013 dictionary took 8MB; all of Word 95 used 8MB, so that would have doubled your memory requirement right there.
The processing speed comes into play as the processor analyzes the sentence structure and runs through a large if-then-else branching scenario to detect if it's correct or what might come next. Only when this can happen between keystrokes does it make a real-time autocorrect viable.
Bytewave · 5 points · Posted at 18:44:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Wouldn't it be a simple solution for the USPTO to simply be allowed to hand out temporary and revocable patents and wait until it's been put to real use to issue a full patent? (Unless a prototype already exists)
ISw3arItWasntM3 · 1 points · Posted at 07:50:00 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think a better idea would be a company or entity needs to show meaningful application of the patent to keep it after a certain time window. Shift the burden onto the patent owner a bit, but it's only a burden if they weren't actually using it anyway.
xrimane · 3 points · Posted at 18:46:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
As far as I understand, in order to obtain a greater good, society grants patents for two reasons:
to incite private investors to invest money in a development that ultimately will serve all, by allowing him to exploit his invention for a limited time without other people copying his invention and profiting off of his invention
to avoid inventors to take their inventions to the grave with them by allowing them to document them without fear of copying right away
I often wonder where the public interest lies in granting patents for ideas that are still at a stage when they are vague and semi-evident to people in the field - especially when there are many others who are more or less at the same stage of development. If an idea would get developed anyway, because there is money to be earned, why not let the market take its course, at the advantage of the consumer?
Gornarok · 5 points · Posted at 18:03:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I dont know I can agree with this. Whats there to patent about idea that might not work...
They should be able to deliver proof of concept at least. Proof of concept is not working prototype,far from it.
RandolfSchneider · 6 points · Posted at 18:57:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A patent application contains as much information as the applicant wants. Depending on the particular local law, if the examiner is satisfied that the alleged invention could work, in addition to being new etc. they're allowed to grant it. If it isn't viable, it most probably won't make money or harm anyone anyway. That said, hindsight is a powerful tool.
JMJimmy · 5 points · Posted at 19:07:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The trouble I have with the patent office is that it's clearly being gamed.
Patents like https://www.google.com/patents/US20060115507 are obvious attempts to obfuscate the truth. The truth of their product is it's a standard insecticide, in a standard delivery mechanism with some random "essential oils" thrown in.
It reads more like a marketing brochure than a patent, contains so many conditional & non-determinable statements that there's no way anyone at the patent office could know what the heck the product actually contains, let alone that the "essential oils" do jack all to create a new or novel insecticide.
milkfactory · 4 points · Posted at 20:46:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That patent was not granted.
JMJimmy · 3 points · Posted at 20:50:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Even if that particular one wasn't, there are many from that company that were
ER_nesto · 1 points · Posted at 22:40:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That patent is ridiculously narrow in scope, it allows only for one specific pesticide in a 1:2 ratio with Thyme Oil specifically used for killing cockroaches.
That said, it's still not something that should be patented
frogandbanjo · 19 points · Posted at 16:59:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And so yet again the looming spectre of asymmetric resources is handwaved. Good show.
[deleted] · 20 points · Posted at 17:50:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
HeadshotsInc · -8 points · Posted at 18:58:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Contract independent software engineers to review software patents.
I don't think you understand the magnitude of this issue. The software patent system is so wildly out of control, most of us just assume it's dirty and fraudulent.
I hope one day that your ability to provide for your family is put in jeopardy because you are being sued for infringing on a trivial patent (the software equivalent of patenting a fork with three tines instead of four). And that you are forced out of business because the Texas court is in the pocket of the trolls.
OnAKaiserRoll · 8 points · Posted at 19:33:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What, you mean guys with no legal training whatsoever, as opposed to the thousands of software engineers with legal training already working at the patent office?
HeadshotsInc · -3 points · Posted at 19:37:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The whole point is that they are working, independent engineers instead of fishbowl CompSci geeks.
HeadshotsInc · 3 points · Posted at 19:14:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
We're not talking about dozens, here. The numbers are much closer to 7 figures than 5.
What you should compare is the dozen cases you've heard about because those people thought they had a chance of winning vs the half a million that knows they don't have a chance.
You should read about Xplane and the guy who wrote it. I wonder if you'll feel as proud then.
The whole thing is a ridiculous game that distracts from the fundamental issue that software patents provide leverage for financially large institutions to destroy smaller ones.
Edit: link
VerrKol · 2 points · Posted at 20:10:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is an issue with the legal system at large. It's hardly limited to patent law
HeadshotsInc · 2 points · Posted at 21:43:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The legal system is built on the assumption that the patent represents a legitimate invention worthy of protection.
When that assumption becomes invalid (as it has with software patents), companies can wield ridiculous patents like clubs against smaller companies. The patent essentially becomes a weapon. We see this time, and time again.
You shouldn't be able to patent a shopping cart, or the concept of selling things online. That's just ludicrous. I don't know if you're a software developer, but these technologies (and many like them) are not worthy of patents. Any reasonable design/engineering team would come up with those ideas, and be able to implement them quickly and easily, but right now a large number of people are being sued for implementing exactly that.
There's an algorithm called marching cubes that held the game industry back for 15 years. Again, an idea that any good graphics engineer could have developed becomes not only inaccessible, but actionable.
The larger company uses the legal system and becomes the assailant. The patent is the weapon. Without the crappy patent, they wouldn't have the opportunity.
Have you read this?
edit: wording
saikron · 4 points · Posted at 18:06:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Do examiners get fired for issuing "online multiplayer video game" patents or "rounded edge touchscreen icon" patents? This is like multiple people successfully patenting the wheel, over and over again.
Are there any repercussions at all?
OnAKaiserRoll · 5 points · Posted at 19:32:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Do you have any examples of these? Because the only examples I know of have been vastly overblown by the media.
saikron · 3 points · Posted at 20:06:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Let me google some stuff for ya bud.
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=7,640,233.PN.&OS=PN/7,640,233&RS=PN/7,640,233
http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PG01&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=%2220090119148%22.PGNR.&OS=DN/20090119148&RS=DN/20090119148
Hey, here's one that was used to sue Activision/Blizzard and is essentially a patent on a network communication pattern: http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=6701344.PN.&OS=PN/6701344&RS=PN/6701344
That patent was used with others in a suit according to this article: https://www.law360.com/articles/637639/ea-faces-patent-suit-over-multiplayer-gaming
I mean I don't want to crucify the examiners responsible for awarding those patents but the impact of these fuckups can be huge, and collectively they create an atmosphere of distrust or even animosity for the USPTO. I hate to be condescending, and maybe I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure a sophomore computer science student would read that abstract and say "lol no".
geniel1 · 7 points · Posted at 17:47:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not everyone agrees that patent trolls are a problem. I actually think they're quite misunderstood. I'm a patent attorney and I know lots of other patent attorneys think the same thing.
"Trolls" provide an important feature in that they are an avenue for the little guy to enforce his/her patents against bigger companies. If I get a patent but don't have the money to enforce it against a big company, I can strike up a deal with a troll to enforce it where the troll pays for the enforcement in exchange for a split of any damages the court may award down the road.
Trolls aren't a bug, they're a feature. The fact that most of the public thinks of them as a problem just shows how effective the tech sector's demonization campaign has been.
lurgi · 9 points · Posted at 18:17:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
They could be used for that. Any idea how many are used for that purpose?
The issue I have with patent trolls is that you have someone who is not manufacturing an item enforcing a patent against someone who is. Patents exist to provide a benefit to society by providing protection to inventors. Patent trolls, by and large, don't seem to provide that benefit.
I don't think that an inventor has to manufacture their idea in order to get a patent, but I'm very, very suspicious of companies that have no intention of making a product and only have the patent to sue those who do have such an intention (see: Intellectual Ventures).
Although perhaps in the world of tech, the problem can largely be resolved by reducing the length of patent protection for software patents (or eliminating them completely, although I suspect reducing the length is more likely).
geniel1 · 5 points · Posted at 18:54:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
They're used for that all the time. It's quite a common practice. Even big companies use them for this. Medtronic and Boston Scientific, for example, routinely sell or license to trolls parts of their portfolios that they're not using.
By that definition, pretty much every research university is a "troll". Hell, Thomas Edison didn't actually manufacture anything so even he would be considered a "troll".
Patent trolls do provide value though. By offering an enforcement mechanism for individual inventors, trolls increase the inherent value in all patents. Like any other property right, the ability to transfer one's right to enforce a patent is a big driver of their value. Take that right away, and the value of patents will be driven down. If you, for example, took away people's rights to transfer their cars or homes to some types of buyers then the price of cars and homes would drop. We'll see the same result for patents if we pass rules designed to prevent inventors from transferring their patent rights to trolls.
The tech world would love to kill the trolls because the tech world loves to rip off inventors. That's why Intel launched the whole anti-Troll screed that has gain such popular acceptance. This is why this patent troll topic is so apt for this thread. 90% of the people just accept that trolls are bad, but those people don't truly understand patents.
lurgi · 2 points · Posted at 19:05:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
He manufactured plenty of items. He wasn't just an ideas guy.
geniel1 · 2 points · Posted at 19:10:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No he didn't. He licensed his patents to other companies and those other companies manufactured the inventions.
lurgi · 1 points · Posted at 19:21:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So what was Edison manufacturing company? Chopped liver?
Anyway, I don't see why you think I'd object to someone selling patents to let someone else make stuff instead of them doing it themselves.
geniel1 · 1 points · Posted at 19:24:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Edison was an inventor, but he didn't manufacture any products. He made his money by licensing his patents out to others.
lurgi · 1 points · Posted at 19:30:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
He most certainly did (or his companies did, which amounts to the same thing).
geniel1 · 3 points · Posted at 19:44:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Later in his career he started to manufacture some of his own inventions, but early on during his most inventive phase of his life he was a non-practicing entity that made his money by selling or licensing his patents to others.
lurgi · 2 points · Posted at 19:08:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, but that wasn't what I was talking about. You said:
Which is different.
geniel1 · 2 points · Posted at 19:11:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Those aren't mutually exclusive. Trolls enforce patents of both small individual inventors and big giant companies.
Norm_Peterson · 2 points · Posted at 18:47:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
To take your example, Intellectual Ventures - many of the patents they enforce came from and were developed by operating companies, like HP, etc. Are they a "troll" when they enforce those patents? What about IBM - they used to make stuff, don't anymore, but they still enforce their patents. Is IBM a patent troll? How about Nokia - they don't make mobile phones anymore. Are they a troll if they want to enforce their mobile phone patents?
The problem here is that everyone thinks their own patents are just fine, it's the other guy who is a patent troll.
lurgi · 3 points · Posted at 18:59:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you believe that the purpose of these patents is to protect the maker of stuff, then yes. Because they aren't making stuff.
geniel1 · 6 points · Posted at 19:09:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Your post is a prime example of the misconceptions that 90% of the people have about patents.
The purpose of a patent isn't to protect manufacturers of stuff. In fact, a patent doesn't even give you the right to make the invention. It only gives you the right to stop others from making, using or selling the invention. It is quite possible for an inventor to not be able to practice his own invention because some other person got a patent on some other aspect of the invention. For example, you might get a patent on a car yet still not be able to make, use or sell the car because some earlier inventor has a patent on the tires you need for the car to work.
The purpose of a patent is to entice inventors to disclose their inventions in exchange for a 20-yr monopoly that allows the inventors to stop others from using their invention.
lurgi · 5 points · Posted at 19:18:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If we want to be technical, the purpose of patents in the US is to "promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries"
I see that bit about "exclusive right", but I also see the bit about "promote the progress of science and useful arts". I believe that there are uses of patents today that do not "promote the progress of science and useful arts". I would like to believe that it would be possible to reform the existing system to make it more in alignment with that goal.
I do not believe that stopping others from using your invention, by itself, provides much real benefit to society. Society benefits when someone builds the invention, not when other people are prevented from doing it (you need the latter to protect the former, but the latter without the former isn't helping anyone, IMHO). This is straight up dog-in-manger stuff.
geniel1 · 3 points · Posted at 19:38:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well, the patent clause in the constitution wasn't meant to be an exhaustive explanation of the purpose of the patent system. The only reason it found its way into the document was because the founding fathers wanted to make sure patents were temporary in nature. At the time, it was common practice in Europe to grant patents as political favors. The patents often didn't expire or were rarely granted to those that actually did the inventing. The founding fathers wanted to make sure we didn't do that here, so they wrote the "promote the progress of science" and "securing for a limited time" bits as limitations on Congress's power rather than as a clear statement of a patent's purpose.
Perhaps you don't believe that stopping others from using your invention provides much benefit, but the founding fathers wouldn't have agreed with you. Those are the same guys that wound up passing the first patent statute, and they purposely didn't grant a patent holder the right to practice their own invention. Instead, they designed the system we have that only allows patent holders to prevent others from using their patented inventions.
There are countries that try to promote the manufacturing of inventions by including various legal mechanisms to force manufacturing. Those systems don't work very well because they actually wind up watering down the rights of the inventors and discourage inventing. India is a prime example of this.
philaenopsis · 1 points · Posted at 20:29:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I have nothing to add to this, but I work in a tech transfer office at a large research university and these comment threads are incredibly frustrating to read. Thank you for actually taking the time to explain things to people.
Norm_Peterson · 1 points · Posted at 05:45:33 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
But patents don't exist only to protect people who make stuff. They exist to protect people who invent stuff, whether they make that stuff themselves or license it to others. As it says in the Constitution, the patent system is supposed "to promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to ... inventors the exclusive right to their respective ... discoveries." Not a word in there about making stuff, fwiw.
HeadshotsInc · -5 points · Posted at 19:00:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Go fuck yourself, you trolling cunt.
geniel1 · 0 points · Posted at 19:10:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My, what a persuasive argument.
HeadshotsInc · -1 points · Posted at 19:33:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
https://www.thepatentscam.com/
Au_Struck_Geologist · 1 points · Posted at 20:25:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What's your opinion on patenting biological things? IMO there are the dumb easy questions like discovering what something does shouldn't allow you to patent it, but the complex cases of truly artificial organic molecules changing as they reproduce doesn't seem to have an easy answer.
The first one was an IBM bacteria right?
flnagoration · 1 points · Posted at 19:33:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is a long-winded way of saying "bribes"
imagine_slashS_AtEnd · -1 points · Posted at 18:27:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
so basically all this nonsense you wrote comes down to: we are not idiots, we are just corrupt, we get bribed, but i cannot admit it here on reddit.
ok, gotcha. then it works like everything else.
estusdew · 1 points · Posted at 19:39:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you're a hard working, eager person who can get things done, you're going to get a frivolous patent before a lazier person gets an honest patent.
Pheonixi3 · 1 points · Posted at 17:40:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
no system is empirically perfect.
ironnmetal · -3 points · Posted at 16:55:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Looks like you got your "acceptable explanation."
industrythrowaway_ · 24 points · Posted at 17:18:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Software patents are a real bad idea though...it’s like allowing people to patent plots for novels and then enforce that patent even if every single word is different.
Software should be handled under copyright, where exact copying is actionable, but outcomes shouldn’t be. If I code up a one click purchase button that is in every way different from how Amazon does it, with the exception that clicking a button completes a purchase, Amazon shouldn’t be able to legally come after me.
yParticle · 5 points · Posted at 19:09:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Or even without writing a single chapter themselves. It's causing immeasurable harm to innovation.
satysin · 6 points · Posted at 16:19:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What is your opinion on software patents?
nginrheredisagreeing · 25 points · Posted at 17:06:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Engineer here, and I respectfully disagree. The patent system is broken to all hell, at least in classes 700-726.
Very few patents in this category are non-obvious, and fewer are novel. It's depressing to read a patent, only to read a much earlier paper from different authors. It's even more depressing to then read a second patent covering the exact same process.
I'm not an expert in other classes, so maybe they're chugging along fine.
Scorigami · 11 points · Posted at 17:07:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Intellectual property in general is just a bottomless well of complication.
DontLetItSlipAway · 6 points · Posted at 15:52:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Why does the office not raise costs so you can hire more and precess faster?
Comprised_of_haggis · 5 points · Posted at 16:01:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
We went through a huge hiring period around 2013 and 2014 and did just that. One of the biggest issues was the backlog and 5 year waits for a first office action. Most areas have minimal backlog now and waiting times are down to about 18 months.
Hiring even more examiners runs the risk of expanding too quickly and running out of applications in some areas. Every time we hire, we have to predict what areas will continue to see a lot of applications based on past activity. This is not always a precise science. Additionally, examiners are trained in and specialized in one specific field (eg rehab devices, or turbo fans, or diapers, or photovoltaic cells) and transferring to a different area that needs the help is time consuming and comes with a learning curve.
DontLetItSlipAway · 5 points · Posted at 16:28:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I did not think about the area specialization.
What are your thoughts on the cost to submit from a practical perspective? A good patent costs $10k to get created by good lawyers, is there any way someone like me can find a reliable way to reduce that cost. Is there a way to have the patent off be more willing to work with me and help me through the process?
Iammackers · 5 points · Posted at 17:28:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Have you ever read this article from popular mechanic ?
midwintermoons · 10 points · Posted at 16:44:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This may be the only fair answer I've seen in one of these self-congratulatory circlejerk threads. 90% of people not having a good understanding of the patent system actually seems like a realistic possibility.
__crackers__ · 4 points · Posted at 17:48:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Then why are the huge issues with patent trolls and laughable patents a peculiarly American problem?
HeadshotsInc · 3 points · Posted at 19:07:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't understand how you can maintain that position in the face of the software patent disaster, and the financial destruction of small software businesses it has caused (forget about the societal cost of the product utility that is lost because of this).
The thing you don't want to admit is that in today's world, patents are only useful if you have the money to defend them. They didn't help Eli Whitney with his cotton gin, and they do not help the "little guy" today.
A typical app developer cannot enforce a patent on a larger company.
ipostcat · 4 points · Posted at 19:19:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't think the examiners themselves are dumb or to blame, but there's no doubt that there are major issues with the system and it's incredibly broken. Consider things like allowing Apple to patent rounded corners of a phone, allowing Amazon to patent taking pictures with white backgrounds, or more generally allowing software and hardware patent trolls to harass companies and stifle innovation for things vague things that never should have gotten protection.
ps3o-k · 3 points · Posted at 16:35:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When you have a patent how do you know it's original? (Serious).
geniel1 · 5 points · Posted at 17:39:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The patent office searches past patents, scientific papers, publications, etc to try to determine if the invention in question is new and non-obvious.
ps3o-k · 1 points · Posted at 11:50:25 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Cool! Thanks!
SwahiliArt · 3 points · Posted at 17:30:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Thanks for your hard work and for sharing the insider perspective.
daustin627 · 3 points · Posted at 17:40:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You should do an AMA on this. Ya know, aside from this one.
UsErNaMe-NoT_TaKeN · 1 points · Posted at 21:59:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I too would love to see an AMA
motsanciens · 3 points · Posted at 18:36:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Can I be frank? You are way too inside the bubble of your daily life, here. Most people commenting on the patent system are not even thinking one iota about the office where you work, its budget, or any news stories related to the patent office. The work you guys do is fine, respectable work. There's a lot of skepticism about the concept of intellectual property in general in the modern era. I'm not here to make an argument one way or the other on that....
miellaby · 3 points · Posted at 18:38:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You want to defend your job. So you need to understand how your opponents think. For example, the fact that the system is self-sustained is not supposed to be a good point. For a lot of people, it's the sign that the the actors in the patent business live at good people's expense (good people = those who innovates, basically).
zaery · 3 points · Posted at 19:33:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A method of swinging on a swing has always been my favorite silly patent. I'm curious if there's something about it that I'm missing, or if it really is just a ridiculous patent that I almost infringed on as a kid.
milkfactory · 1 points · Posted at 21:01:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You're only infringing on a patent if you're using it for commercial purposes. Like if you were giving a public art performance for pay.
porcelainvacation · 12 points · Posted at 15:45:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
As the holder of 15 patents in my industry, I'm always surprised by the misunderstanding most people have about IP law. Patents are there to protect the inventor from theft, and they are only abused in a very small number of cases.
clamdiggin · 8 points · Posted at 19:07:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Do you believe that people should be able to patent something and never actually develop or implement a product based on it? That is the biggest problem I find with the patent system.
It is intended to protect inventors, but it also allows companies to buy up patents, never produce or build anything and earn money by suing lots of small companies for bullshit obvious patents that they don't have the time or money to fight.
The courts are incredible expensive and time consuming to sort out bad patents.
This is especially bad in the area of software patents.
porcelainvacation · 1 points · Posted at 04:57:34 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Patents are expensive to obtain and defend. While there are speculative patents that never get realized, probably most of them eventually find their way into the market. It is common to patent several ways to solve a specific problem but only use the most direct approach, however. This is to prevent an extremely narrow claim from being run around easily. I am somewhat for a shorter expiration date on unrealized claims, though.
One of the big hidden value in patents is that the act of application makes the information public, whether or not the patent is issued. This is a huge boon, in that the patent system is a big free treasure trove of research. Any claim that doesn't get granted is free for anyone to copy, any anything that does is free after the patents expire. One of the few good things about drug patents is that they help the generics get onto the market safely as soon as the patents expire.
nginrheredisagreeing · 3 points · Posted at 17:16:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Which industry?
porcelainvacation · 1 points · Posted at 04:48:36 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Electronic instrumentation.
Comprised_of_haggis · 3 points · Posted at 16:03:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I wish more people understood this. I think some of the issue arises from people assuming patents are easy if you have an idea. They have no clue how much work goes into the process from everyone involved (inventor, assignee, attorney, examiner, etc).
porcelainvacation · 1 points · Posted at 04:59:13 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes, patents are incredibly difficult to get and defend, unlike copyrights and trademarks, which almost nobody complains about.
Chaotic-Catastrophe · 10 points · Posted at 16:10:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's not patent-exclusive. Most redditors despise the idea of intellectual property for no other reason than because other redditors told them to.
Distind · 5 points · Posted at 19:40:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Or we're in software and have to dance around landmines of things I've never even heard of because I might code something vaguely similar in a superficial capacity to a software patent.
The rest of patents, sure. Particularly novel software, perhaps for very deep technological definitions, but right now, broke as shit.
Comprised_of_haggis · 3 points · Posted at 16:20:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Good ol hive mind. Most don't realize a big part of the reason we're a prosperous nation with cool tech to use in our everyday lives is because of the intellectual property system. The problem is mistakes and issues make headlines while everything good is swept under the rug.
LibertyTerp · 14 points · Posted at 15:39:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How long do patents last?
My problem with our current intellectual property system is that the length has gotten out of control. The Constitution had it right at fourteen years. Performing someone else's song or making a copy of a video game is NOT the same as stealing someone else's property. You aren't taking anything away from anyone, you're creating a brand new copy.
The reason for IP laws is to incentivize people to create IP, not because sending a friend an MP3 of a song you like is immoral.
Imagine all of the free content that would exist with 14 years as the limit for IP? All music, movies, TV shows, books, video games, and inventions before 2003 would be free and available to everyone. That is an incredible public good. And all of that stuff still would have been created if IP only lasted 14 years, which is more than enough time to make money off of your idea.
porcelainvacation · 38 points · Posted at 15:47:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Video games are protected by copyright, not patents. Design patents last 14 years. Utility Patents last 20 years from date of issue in the US.
Comprised_of_haggis · 38 points · Posted at 15:51:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There is a huge difference between copyrights and patents. I agree copyrights have gotten out of control.
Patents last a maximum of 20 years. This is a fair amount of time in my opinion. Patents are expensive to obtain and maintain and many times patents don't get commercialized for a multitude of reasons. 14 years likely wouldn't be enough time to recover costs for some industries and finding investors could be difficult with a shorter profit window.
Also, there is nothing preventing someone from making and patenting a meaningful improvement on a patent issued last week. The beauty of it is that in exchange for a limited monopoly on the patented invention, the public is informed about how to make and use the invention immediately. This allows for immediate improvements, furthers the field, and fosters an innovative culture.
joshcart · 8 points · Posted at 16:04:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You begin with Patents and then branch off and start discussing Copyrights. You then further move into "IP" generally. So would you support having Trademarks only existing for 14 years? That seems to be a terrible idea to me. Furthermore, you seem to assume that 14 years is enough of an incentive to create music, TV shows, books, and video games. Is that really true? Do you have anything to support that? Can you imagine if the Copyright on Star Wars ran out in 14 years? You realize that the franchise would have collapsed and that there wouldn't be any new movies (the logic applies to all sequels and follow-ups to games, movies, shows, and books. Once anyone can tap into it then the original creator loses that market).
LibertyTerp · 4 points · Posted at 16:39:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Making it legal for anyone to make a Star Wars movie would not result in fewer Star Wars movies. And Star Wars still would have been created.
joshcart · 5 points · Posted at 16:51:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It would result in someone else's version of Star Wars being created and ending up in the market. At the very best it would essentially create a "rush to the marketplace" hurting the quality of the work put out there. At the worst it would actually stop sequels from being produced by the original creator entirely.
lonesoldier4789 · 3 points · Posted at 16:31:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Who are you to say 14 years is long enough and that software piracy isnt stealing? People put hardwork and creative talent into making a video game and that should be protected. Why should an author not be expected to be compensated for a book they wrote in 2002? That is ridiculous.
Deto · 5 points · Posted at 17:10:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You're just arguing that it's not the fault of patent workers and that things are expensive because the system is set up that way. I believe you. However that doesn't mean that the system , as a whole, isn't really messed up. Most criticisms aren't blaming the patent workers personally.
throwaway4anger · 2 points · Posted at 18:13:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
this has gotta be like, 90% of reddit comments
amadorUSA · 2 points · Posted at 18:22:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm not an expert in your area, but it does seem that patents create artificial scarcity and stifle innovation.
KingOfTheMusicScene · 2 points · Posted at 18:31:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How'd you get into being a patent examiner?
Ironicles · 3 points · Posted at 19:15:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not OP, but a I know a fair amount of my co-workers ended up here because we got sick of working as engineers in the field which we examine. The hours here are better and often times the pay is as good or better. They post the listing on USAJobs like everything else in the federal government.
KingOfTheMusicScene · 1 points · Posted at 19:17:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Thanks you so much! I think I might consider it as a job now!
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:46:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Also don't forget our insane production requriements, we don't have paid lunch, and our payment system is billable hours so we have to show that every minute we are getting paid we are working on a case. If you have hard cases, you will have to give up your time and work voluntary overtime to compensate.
SeanStormEh · 2 points · Posted at 19:32:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
As a huge fan of Shark Tank, what are the basic differences on some of the patents they mention on there?
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:44:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is reddit and people in general when it comes to anything. This term isn't popular anymore but I'm going to say it anyway because it's correct: Dunning-Kruger Effect. You see it everywhere once you know what to look for.
mdifmm11 · 2 points · Posted at 20:09:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well... OK, you have 10k examiners. The US gets ~600k applications per year. So to keep up you would need each examiner to process ~1 per 4 days. ONE PER FOUR DAYS. That's not much. Currently the process takes 5-6 years. I feel like there's A LOT of room for improvement.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 21:30:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It takes an extreme amount of time to analyze a patent. It isn't an easy thing as you may think. You first have to analyze the technology which is completely different each application. You have to understand all the mechanisms and parts and their functions. Then you will have to go through thousands of previous patents, publications, and non patent literature and narrow down to a list of relevant applications (this is the bulk of time; searching), then you have to compose an office action in which you use legal arguments sometimes using case law on why this particular invention isn't inventive. Then you send it out and continue on other applications. Month's later you recieve the application you sent out, and look at the arguments, then proceed to argue more and or search more, and then if you are lucky you can give a final rejection, but if the client has money he can continue to fight on. We reduced tthe backlog to 2 years old applications now, and the current goal is to complete prosecution within 10 months.
[deleted] · 6 points · Posted at 17:32:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't accept a patent system that allows computer code or math to be patented unless it's an entirely new form of code or math and even then only the language itself should be able to be patented, not anything written in said languages. Computer code should fall under copyright.
The laws need to be changed to reflect this, I've written my congressman and senator and got nothing.
k2readone · 5 points · Posted at 17:45:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
One can't patent math or computer code as the law currently is.
anotherhumantoo · 4 points · Posted at 17:59:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But they can patent "a process, using a computer, whereby
___and the___can be incredibly generic.[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:59:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Umm yeah they can, they patent processes made with computer language. Like amazon's 1-click patent case that they just lost for example. Google software patents.
k2readone · 1 points · Posted at 20:25:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes, a process can be patented. Whether or not it's implementation uses computer code doesn't matter. Google some patent law, start with "subject matter eligibility software per se" then go read Enfish and Bascom. Also, Amazon's patent in the US expired and was never found invalid, if that's what you mean by "lost".
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 20:37:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes, I know that, I'm saying it shouldn't be able to be. Any expression of code/language should be handled by copyright. (Software)
k2readone · 1 points · Posted at 20:49:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Copyright cannot protect inventive processes.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 21:37:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There's nothing inventive about coding, it's just one logical step to the next. Each a tiny expansion on code that came before it.
k2readone · 1 points · Posted at 21:47:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And what about code that's used in inventive processes as I mentioned? Should an inventive process be unpatentable because it uses computer code to perform a part of the process?
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 21:53:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No, just make a distinction between processes that are an expression of language and processes that are an expression of physics. For example, if you invented some kind of new process for a device, say you invented the tricorder from star trek, you can patent the processes in the device that allows it to do what it does, but you can't patent the firmware that controls it.
(The idea is opposites, you can't patent physics but you can patent expressions of physics. You can patent a coding language but you can't patent an expression of that language, instead it would fall under copyright. It's simple.)
k2readone · 1 points · Posted at 22:54:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"you can patent the processes in the device that allows it to do what it does, but you can't patent the firmware that controls it." This doesn't make sense to me, imo, you're making a distinction without a difference. Software/firmware is what allows a new device to perform those new processes and is just a way to implement the invented processes. Nobody is filing patents on the "code", they are patenting the processes. And again, copyright cannot be used to protect inventive processes.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 02:12:54 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well the hardware has to allow for it. I'm basically saying you can patent hardware that's designed to fulfill a function, but not the firmware that controls it. Also, you seem be extremely particular about exact wording. I'm saying that no processes generated by code can be unique or original.
For example, do you think Miscrosofts SMB protocol is patent worthy? What about Amazon's 1 click checkout?
k2readone · 1 points · Posted at 15:41:00 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes, I am extremely particular about wording because that is what matters in the law. The distinction you make should not matter, either a process is novel or it is not, whether or not it is implemented using hardware or software/firmware, or a combination thereof, does not matter.
I have not done prior art research on Miscrosoft's SMB protocol nor the Amazon's 1 click checkout, so I cannot provide an opinion on those matters. What research into that prior art have you done?
If I invest $5 million into developing a new encryption technology that is novel and is implented via software, you are telling me that I cannot patent it because it would be implemented in software. That is a wrong result. New technology should be patentable whether or not they are implemented with software. Why should one not be able to get such a patent?
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 01:17:16 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
1) I don't know why you're calling it an art. 2) If you developed a new form of encryption that would be patentable. 3) The distinction is important, because it would be separating creativity from innovation.
4) My point was going to be that there was nothing remotely innovative or patent worthy about either of those things. Since you don't know anything about it nvm.
I'll answer this as a separate question. It stifles innovation and allows patent trolls to exist. Also, because the "process" is often patented, even if two separate companies solve the problem in different ways, or even different languages just because one company holds a patent on the idea behind a process means they can sue another company for that. Even when they didn't come up with it, even when it's unoriginal and it existed in a slightly different form before the way they implemented it.
If things made from coding fell under copyright then nobody could copy anyone else's code, but if one company can find a way to solve a problem differently than another they would be able to do so. Also, finally my point is that innovation happens at the hardware engineering level, not the software implementation level. Software exists to leverage the hardware to solve specific problems that the hardware is already designed to be capable of addressing.
k2readone · 2 points · Posted at 18:58:07 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
I thank you for thoughtful and detailed responses. I have engaged in this exchange in an attempt to educate at least one of the 90% (you) that the OC (u/Comprised_of_haggis) discussed. As a final retort to some of your questions and points, I offer this information as a place where you can learn some correct details about this subject matter (i.e. patents):
1) I call it "prior art" because that is what the professionals, including me (i.e. the 10%), call it in this area of law. Generally, "prior art" is all information that existed prior to an applicant's patent filing (in the US and most other countries that are on a first-to-file system) and, per the minutiae of the law, can be used to reject giving an applicant a patent. Note though, there needs to be actual evidence of such prior art. A random internet person's statement, without support or analysis, stating something would be "obvious" does not count as prior art under the law.
2) I am currently working with a group of engineers to patent new encryption methods. It is all software based and completely hardware independent. Anyone with a modern computer could implement these new encryption methods. And yes, they are completely new. The methods and processes used to perform the encryption and authenticate did not exist before these engineers invented them, and implemented them solely in software. I am doing the same with new digital communications technology, which is again completely hardware independent and could be implemented on any receiver with an antenna, ADC, and processor; the fact is the specific hardware barely matters.
3) One can separate creative art, like paintings, photographs, and literature, from innovative functional devices. I am absolutely fine with copyright being used to protect computer code as a literary work; however, that protection should not be in lieu of patent protection for novel (and non-obvious) processes or methods, even if they happen to be implemented solely using software. See my encryption discussion above.
4) Are you intricately familiar with 35 USC 102 and 35 USC 103? These are the laws that determine whether something is novel (35 USC 102) and non-obvious (35 USC 103). The analysis for determing novelty is somewhat objective, whereas the analysis for determing obviousness is more subjective. However, as the OC stated, the patent Examiners do a damn good job of this at the moment. Sure, there are a few patents that might get through that don't seem like they should, but there are ways built into the law to rectify that afterwards (see IPRs and invalidity defenses). Note: I have been in this area of law for 20 years and the different in quality of the examination of patents from the late 90s and ealy 2000s is substantial; a lot of overly broad, and hence likely invalid, patents were issued in that timeframe. The USPTO has done a great job over the last 15 years changing that and making it a much better quality examination when it comes to software, computer, process inventions.
5) I have also worked with a number of clients to deal with patent trolls. Patent trolls are not uniquely a software problem. IBM, imo, is one of the biggest patent trolls out there, as well as numerous patent trolls that merely own circuit and hardware patents. Forcing methods or processes implemented via software not to be patentable will not fix the patent troll problem. Those of us working on this issue know this; the real problem is the ridiculous leverage the patent trolls have in court due to pleadings, timing, and costs. Luckily, there have been two significant changes to that in the last year at the court level, and hopefully we can get some legislation passed that hurts trolls even more.
6) Yes, if one has a valid patent, they can sue someone over it. All patents have a potential to stifle innovation in the patented space for the term of the patent, that is an intentional aspect of having a patent system and why the patent holder gets a limited time (approx. 20 yrs from filing) monopoly to stop others from practicing the invention, hence the stifling. This is exaclty how the pharma industry works also. The basis for this is in the Constitution. That is the foundational concept of having a patent system. Also, as mentioned above, there are multiple ways to challenge a patent as being invalid if a defendant believes such. However, your statement "Even when they didn't come up with it, even when it's unoriginal and it existed in a slightly different form before the way they implemented it." is incorrect, see discussions on 35 USC 102 and 35 USC 103, as well as the requirement for the inventors in a patent application to sign a declaration that they are the inventors of the subject matter thereof. If you believe someone is not the true inventor of a patent, or their exists significant prior art, the law currently allows multiple ways to address this (e.g. reexamine, IPR, litigation).
Also note that if one of your two companies who solved the problem in different ways has a patent on solution 1, and solution 2 is not covered under the same patent, then company 2 can utilize solution 2 without infringing the solution 1 patent. Note that a patent cannot protect "the problem" that is being solved independent of a solution to such problem. Patents have been part of US business for 200+ years; many industries and businesses deal with patent issues every day, it is part of doing business per the US Constitution. If you would like to have a Constitutional convention to debate whether we should amend it to remove the patent clause, that would be a valid question to ask.
7) Computer code is protectable by copyright under the current law. Also, a patent does not prevent a company from solving a problem differently than what was done in the patent. You seem to imply that a patent somehow prevents this, which is not the case. Generally, a patent only covers those solutions which are disclosed and claimed within the patent. Copyrights do not cover any solutions, it merely covers written text.
8) I have to vehemently disagree with your hardware statement. See my discussions above, the hardware used to implement the new technologies just doesn't matter to the inventions.
I encourage you to take this information and learn more factual details about patents and patent law, and how that intersects with software. As of now, you are merely spouting the same diatribes I have seen from other mis-informed, but well intentioned, people who have a scant understanding of the patent system.
I wish you well. Please forgive any typos, as this is a terrible setup for proofreading.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 01:18:40 on August 17, 2017 · (Permalink)
So basically you're saying it's not a problem with the patent system but a problem of individual mistakes that lead to the granting of patents that shouldn't be granted. I guess I'm willing to accept that.
Except patents that do this are granted and sued over. Even when the implementation is different. Still, I guess that goes back to making mistakes. I just don't think the courts should be able to be used a weapon to beat people down.
twiddlingbits · 3 points · Posted at 17:53:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Great job of patting yourself on the back and promoting the system. But lets look at this from outside. The requirement to pass judgement on the work and grant/denty is only a Bachelors? No real world design experience or knowledge is required? legal training but not a PE? I can understand legal knowledge but you should have experience in the field and that comes from doing not looking at lots of papers. Thats the big beef everyone has that stupid patents are approved or patents that overlap dont get rejected.
The USPTO does get taxpayer funding but it pays it back from fees, most of the time it does, however if patent fees don't cover the budget given by Congress you still get paid the same. Thats a lot different from "self-funded" where if there is a shortfall the could be impacts on salaries or jobs to make up the gap.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:49:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Those things would be nice to have, but there's honestly multiple different avenues to fix the problem if you're willing to massively increase the budget in the way your plan proposes. If you want somebody with those qualifications and that work history to leave their work for the patent office you'll need to offer them 200+% of what you offer somebody with a bachelors degree and some legal training if you want to retain them. Especially because people predisposed to want to do patent office work instead of design work in the first place probably self select in to the field as it is. Attracting outside talent could be prohibitively expensive for political reasons.
twiddlingbits · 2 points · Posted at 20:13:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A person with a Bachelors passing judgement on the work of a PhD and/or enginerring expert is crazy. That would be like letting a Supreme Court judge make decisions having only a basic understanding of law and the Constitution. Paying more money to get a patent that allows them to make millions and not worry about someone claiming the USPTO missed it would be reasonable.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:38:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I get where you're coming from, but that doesn't address what I said about how that requires a much larger budget. Also, being able to gauge whether something meets the criteria for a patent doesn't require one to be an equivalent expert to the inventor. Technology isn't unintelligible voodoo to somebody just because they don't have a graduate degree or don't have hands on experience in that exact field.
I'm not sure what you meant by that last part. Some type of buyout ability?
twiddlingbits · 1 points · Posted at 20:50:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you dont understand it then it might as well be voodoo. But since the claims on the application are not verified just checked to see no one else has claimed the same(prior art). So from what I see I could patent something that violates the laws of physics such as a warp drive. Which explains why advanced knowledge isnt needed.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 21:00:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You can easily understand something you weren't capable of discovering for yourself. Even Isaac Newton said he only saw so far because he stood on the shoulders of giants. You act like it is completely unreasonable for a non expert to understand the ideas of experts, something that precludes the sharing of knowledge in general.
I don't see the point of this strawman. It doesn't even take someone with a bachelors degree in physics, let alone a PhD, to spot a violation of the laws of physics. Please show me proof of these time machine-esque bullshit patents and offer an explanation for how they are even a serious issue if they exist. Who would they hurt exactly?
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 21:20:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It has to do with resources. The most paid person in the USPTO is capped to 170K and that is irrespective of the location of where the examiner is staying. you would never get a well respected technical professional from the silicon valley, because they are not going to be happy with the salary that is being offered to them. You also have such a variety of different technologies you have to examine you can't be an expert in everything. Each application they review is completely different from each other, the only similarity it may be used in the same industry, and sometimes not even that. Coupled to the fact, you have X time to finish a case, that is predetermined and you have no say against even if its an extremely hard case make its a a train wreck that the examiner has to steer best as they can to stay on course. We are literally 2 years behind on patents because it takes time to review technology and we are understaffed.
twiddlingbits · 1 points · Posted at 13:05:13 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ever thought about hiring retired tech people and letting them work remote and part-time? That could help a lot and they probably would fit in the salary curve.
ythl · 3 points · Posted at 19:05:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Software Patents, FTFY
Gl33m · 3 points · Posted at 16:10:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I can still think copyright laws have become total bullshit though, right?
Comprised_of_haggis · 8 points · Posted at 16:16:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Absolutely. The length they last is rediculous. You can thank Disney for that one.
ruffus4life · 2 points · Posted at 16:15:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
when you hand out patents for things like spring loaded injectors to a company that had no hand in inventing them then it's a problem.
jabracoroni · 1 points · Posted at 17:56:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Interesting read, just wrote my exam to be a patent examiner in Canada.
Brettles67 · 1 points · Posted at 18:39:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I work for IPA and it's really interesting to see both the similarities and differences in this thread.
eddietwang · 1 points · Posted at 18:49:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Damn that sounds like a pretty cool job.
Too bad my grades suck.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:09:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I thought the complaint was more with copyright than patent law.
RandomStoryBadEnding · 1 points · Posted at 19:41:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And Einstein was a patent examiner!
pointseeker · 1 points · Posted at 19:50:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
As someone who used to work at the PTO, most of the people I met were engineers who couldn't cut it actually engineering.
sooper_genius · 1 points · Posted at 19:57:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The problem I see is not patent examiners, it's 1) examiner overload, and 2) patenting of software. Recent appeals cases have ruled out the "do X on a computer" type patents, but really anything on a computer is still always something you can do on paper. You might need lots and lots of paper and pencils, but computers only follow instructions written by people. (Or maybe more meta, as in instructions written by other computers, which were instructed by people.)
Proud_Idiot · 1 points · Posted at 16:16:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
sorry, couldn't help but notice
Comprised_of_haggis · 3 points · Posted at 16:22:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Thanks, fixed.
ikwtif · 1 points · Posted at 17:29:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Isn"t the issue with patents is that you can patent whatever you want even if you don't have any intention of using it. It limits market growth because people without the money to have patents can't protect their technology or can't use their technology because some part is patented. Open source is where the true advancements will be. Patents mostly serve the already big companies
sadeiko · 1 points · Posted at 18:42:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Thank you for your post. I've tried googling it but it's hard to find any hard cradle to grave list of what is necessary to file a patent. I can figure out all the forms and stuff, but, If I'm wanting to patent a function of computer software, what would suffice as concept material? Source code? Screenshots? a demo? 3rd party libraries used?
yParticle · 1 points · Posted at 19:06:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Allowing software patents was the beginning of the end of an otherwise useful system.
GoodShitLollypop · 1 points · Posted at 19:31:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But you still let Apple patent sliding your finger across the screen as an "unintuitive and non-obvious" way to unlock the phone...
FunkyPants1263 · 0 points · Posted at 18:53:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The Washington post is sensationalist fake news
MatrixAdmin · 0 points · Posted at 19:14:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Please do some research on Richard Stallman to help you get your brainwashed head out of your capitalist ass. You are arrogant and so in love with the absurd concept of patents that you feel the need to defend your dying field. In the future, the very notion of patents will be considered a barbaric, restrictive and authoritarian practice that merely stifled innovation and lined the pockets of greedy lawyers.
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2005/jun/23/onlinesupplement.insideit
https://youtu.be/aiKRt3-FbM0
flnagoration · 0 points · Posted at 19:31:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
LOL you have * ten thousand* people to examine patents and still take years for each one? jesus, is the whole thing an autism in the workplace experiment?
icanshitposttoo · -5 points · Posted at 17:12:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
if you include software patents in this i hope you die in a fire.
because literally all of those are bullshit.
k2readone · 6 points · Posted at 17:40:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Name checks out
icanshitposttoo · -1 points · Posted at 17:44:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
people should not be allowed to be this fucking retarded.
k2readone · 3 points · Posted at 18:31:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Name checks out
icanshitposttoo · -5 points · Posted at 18:41:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
and yet you're still retarded.
UsErNaMe-NoT_TaKeN · 1 points · Posted at 22:09:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Name checks out
icanshitposttoo · 0 points · Posted at 22:10:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
and yet you're still retarded.
shvelo · -1 points · Posted at 18:41:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The patent system is still stupid and terrible, but it's because the concept of patents is ridiculous.
KingOfTheMusicScene · 0 points · Posted at 18:31:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How'd you get into being a patent examiner?
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 21:23:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You can can apply on USAJobs, it takes 10 weeks from the applications closing to get hired. Warning there wont be any hiring at least in this year because they are afraid of Trump and his commitment to reduce the federal work force.
douglas_ · 0 points · Posted at 18:58:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
yeah but mickey mouse
proboardslolv5 · 436 points · Posted at 14:31:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Calculus
jacob_ewing · 259 points · Posted at 17:32:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, I think a lot of people reach their limits trying to understand it, and it's not an integral part to a lot of their daily lives.
[deleted] · 64 points · Posted at 18:13:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not very funny. A bit derivative tbh.
jacob_ewing · 56 points · Posted at 18:17:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ooooh - that burned. I might have to go to L'Hopital!
[deleted] · 6 points · Posted at 18:44:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Take your upvote...
Jakobie97 · 2 points · Posted at 19:26:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Clever af take my upvote
c0d3s1ing3r · 1 points · Posted at 00:44:36 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well the principle of the matter is still the same.
smc733 · 35 points · Posted at 17:39:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Can't tell if pun is intentional or not. Either way this is a factual statement.
jacob_ewing · 60 points · Posted at 17:50:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not sure if you can derive my intention, eh?
AdamsDJ · 23 points · Posted at 17:59:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Multiple puns in one sentence, probability of of intentional punnery very high.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 20:01:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Half of reddit revolves around puns.
that_meerkat · 2 points · Posted at 19:55:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
flashbacks in calculus
cpMetis · 2 points · Posted at 20:04:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Don't drink and derive.
JohniiMagii · 1 points · Posted at 19:32:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You deserve a much greater reward.
undercooked_lasagna · 62 points · Posted at 16:49:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That is my trigger word.
Jake_the_Snake88 · 22 points · Posted at 17:42:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
thought it was burnt lasagna
PM_ME_NUDE_PICZ · 6 points · Posted at 18:43:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's my safe word.
tabarra · 2 points · Posted at 01:36:35 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Wait until you hear this: Calculus 2
[deleted] · 23 points · Posted at 18:00:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's not THAT hard. It's just boring and requires effort. As someone who majored in mathematics and has a masters, getting over the boredom was half the battle, you start to realize how cool the concepts can be. Calculus is well within the reach of a lot of people, just isn't being taught well. Limits for example, can be easily demonstrated to people if taught correctly, e.g. using polygons to fill a circle with infinitely many sides. Most people understand that but teachers don't teach it that way. They do it with functions etc. A lot of the problem is mathematics is communicated badly and by people that are gifted in mathematics e.g they get concepts easily but ignore the fact that others don't (doesn't mean that they are bad at math, just not professors).
Denziloe · 7 points · Posted at 18:37:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I wonder how many people who've learned to do integrals understand that an integral is defined to be a continuous sum (rather than something to do with antidifferentiation). I'd bet less than 10%. But once you understand this idea -- and it's not too hard to grasp with some good examples -- most of calculus is pretty intuitive.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:52:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What do you mean a continuous sum? A quantity that's always (however slowly) increasing because it's constantly having increasingly small amounts added to it? That's my guess based on what you said and what I know but I'd like to know for sure.
Thanks ahead of time if you bother to reply, btw...
Denziloe · 2 points · Posted at 21:18:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes, basically what you just described.
A physical example would be working out how fast a glass of water fills up if you know the rate that water is flowing into it. You kind of want to just add up all of the water that's going in, but you can't do a normal sum because the water isn't in discrete lumps -- you have to add up all the infinitesimal increments.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 21:53:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ok, thanks.
Reshi86 · 2 points · Posted at 23:31:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is something only people who have taken analysis would know.
Denziloe · 1 points · Posted at 23:35:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I disagree. I have taken analysis but the good introductory (applied) calculus courses I have seen properly introduce integrals as sums. MIT Single Variable Calculus for example.
BitGladius · 1 points · Posted at 19:19:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But then you don't have to explain why the rectangles of near zero (limit as Delta x approaches 0) width have area.
[deleted] · 6 points · Posted at 18:52:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
[deleted] · 4 points · Posted at 19:21:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Don't get me wrong, I thought some parts of calculus were fun back then, it's just that the lecturers were always pretty boring and sometimes it was hard to get motivation to study or even go in my case. Even though I went to an Ivy league school and had really talented professors (award winners and such), they often taught in a very boring way and mathematics is subject where you have to pay attention to pretty much everything or you'll run into roadblocks further down the line, so over coming that boredom was a very important step to being successful in my major, however, the more advanced the subject matter became, the more I got interested and the better the lectures got because they taught with conviction about those subjects, making it a lot more bearable.
I think a lot of people fail because they don't have a lot of discipline (like pretty much everything) and they lose motivation. Good communication helps maintain the student's motivation and that's most important. Also explaining what the math is actually used for is really important, in high school, I had no idea what expanding and factorizing was actually used for until the later years, like if I had known the use and how useful it was, I would have much more motivated to put in the effort. The same with logarithms, same with matrices, etc.
MeowImAShark · 2 points · Posted at 03:48:26 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Hope this helps. I know it did for me.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:53:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[removed]
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:27:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, it is more difficult but a little more interesting in my opinion. I did better at that level than the previous level - a lot more rewarding! I loved the feeling of solving or doing a problem at that level, so it drove me to do well.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:46:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yup, the Venn diagram for people who have an excellent understanding of math and people who are really good teachers has very little overlap.
Reshi86 · 1 points · Posted at 23:30:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm working towards my masters in math. I tutor and it takes a certain personality to be good at math and be able to teach it well. That being said I have had great professors and poor ones.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 00:01:19 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
It does take a certain personality to teach math, unfortunately my lower level courses were taught by pretty boring professors, that being said, my higher level stuff was taught much better and with much more enthusiasm (maybe because the professors liked to relate it with their research). I've tutored in the past and I learned a lot about students perspectives of mathematics and the problems with how math is taught today. Tutoring people for calculus was eye opening when I learned it wasn't really the concepts of calculus that was difficult for students, it was basic stuff like algebra, I was confused how some of them got that far (even more confusing is the fact I tutored at an Ivy league school). It pretty much made me realize that the grading system we have for mathematics is pretty bad and students aren't being assessed correctly, A, B, C isn't good enough in my opinion (or equivalent) because I see students come into courses because they passed the previous but they got Bs or even Cs and don't have a grasp on the fundamentals. Maybe they should make the tests easier and focus more on fundamentals, with the condition that the students get the whole test right or close to.
Reshi86 · 1 points · Posted at 01:17:37 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yea I agree. 90% of the students I see struggling with Calculus, it's not because they are struggling with the Calculus concepts it's because their algebra skills are poor.
FuckingTexas · 6 points · Posted at 17:17:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You're current. I just graduated college and the last class I took was cal 2. I only have a small understanding of it
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:55:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[removed]
Reshi86 · 1 points · Posted at 23:32:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Vector Calculus has a lot of applications in physics and chemical engineering as well.
FuckingTexas · 1 points · Posted at 02:45:24 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, I was an Ag major. Not exactly calculus heavy irl
xmonicleman · 10 points · Posted at 16:56:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Lmfao...so specific. To be even more specific, the concepts of limits and infinity escape most of my students. Slope and area approximations are just fine, but how they're approximated bewilders a fair amount
Sknowman · 13 points · Posted at 17:33:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
To be fair, the concept of infinity is pretty ridiculous. Especially when you learn there are different "sizes" of infinity -- like with (un)countable number sets.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 18:11:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Sknowman · 1 points · Posted at 19:28:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's ridiculous because of how absurdly small a portion of a curve is.
When you're doing the very basics of calculus, taking several areas underneath the curve, it makes sense. Then you take smaller and smaller subsections until you eventually are taking the area of a rectangle with an impossibly small width.
Sure, it makes sense, especially after you understand it, like you do. But when you're first trying to grasp what an integral does and how it accomplishes that, the idea of an infinitely small width is ridiculous to consider. At the same time, it's incredibly cool once you understand the math.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:32:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Sknowman · 2 points · Posted at 19:43:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
True, it's not the best explanation. Nonetheless, infinity is a confusing idea to those who have not really been exposed to it before in an actual mathematical setting, which is made obvious by the number of students often perplexed by it in intro calculus courses.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:49:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Sknowman · 1 points · Posted at 19:50:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No worries. I didn't take it offensively.
andinuad · 1 points · Posted at 19:42:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Uncountable number sets exists in the real world.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:43:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
andinuad · 1 points · Posted at 19:55:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The set known as "real numbers" exists in the real world.
I suppose, I am guessed what you meant by your "but math world is not the real world." and I may have guessed wrongly. I therefore now ask if you could elaborate what you mean by "but math world is not the real world.".
yangyangR · 1 points · Posted at 20:14:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not necessarily. It could have some granularity at a scale like 10-35 , but that's beyond our current technology.
andinuad · 1 points · Posted at 20:38:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There is as far as I know no justifiable reason to believe that it would have such granularity at that scale. You may as well believe in that god caused the Big Bang to happen if you believe that granularity appears at a scale of 10-35; both are as justified. Keep in mind the difference between something being true and being justified in believing that it is true.
yangyangR · 2 points · Posted at 20:53:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Agree that I'm not willing to bet on that happening, but just want to point out possibility.
ingannilo · 1 points · Posted at 22:21:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You guys should read about Planck length and time units.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:19:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
andinuad · 2 points · Posted at 20:54:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Thanks! Yeah, one such case is the Dirac delta function, which has as far as I know no precise real world analogue although several real cases can to a high degree be approximated as such delta functions.
xmonicleman · 1 points · Posted at 20:18:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ridiculous only in that the concepts of increasing without bound or vanishing distances can behave somewhat unintuitively sometimes.
Take a surface with infinitely large surface area, for example. In most cases such a manifold would be able to "hold an infinite amount of water" (i.e. has infinite volume). But if you play around with comparative growth rates (exponential growth versus the limiting behavior of, say, any polynomial shows a stark contrast) you can end up with something like Gabriel's Horn (aka the Torricelli Trumpet) where you get a finite volume because of the vanishing diameter.
I think OP just meant "ridiculous" in that tons of unexpected stuff can happen and reckoning about infinity for the first time can, conceptually, be a tricky task.
Denziloe · 1 points · Posted at 18:35:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Doesn't really have anything to do with calculus.
Sknowman · 1 points · Posted at 19:18:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Infinity exists in calculus. Just because countable sets aren't used in calculus doesn't mean infinity isn't a complex idea.
xmonicleman · 1 points · Posted at 20:07:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sure they are. Maybe not introductory calculus, but it is often of interest when, say, a function is differentiable on all but a countable set of points in its domain (or, more generally, differentiable on its whole domain EXCEPT a subset of measure zero)
Denziloe · 1 points · Posted at 21:15:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What my comment says is that different sizes of infinity don't really have anything to do with calculus, which they don't. You only really encounter one concept of infinity in calculus and it's not a complex one.
Sknowman · 1 points · Posted at 22:51:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I understood what you meant, but it's still besides the point. My point related to calculus was that infinity is complicated.
My mention of multiple infinities was a separate statement about infinity in general, unrelated to calculus, but related to the idea of infinity being confusing.
RiotShields · 3 points · Posted at 16:42:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I guess you're right, if only purely by the numbers.
SoTheyDontFindOut · 3 points · Posted at 17:32:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Can confirm. Math is definitely not my best subject.
Wiseguy72 · 3 points · Posted at 17:52:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's tough to differentiate between people who do and don't know calculus. Although it some ways the 10% that do know calculus are good at integrating with society.
sammalexx · 3 points · Posted at 18:15:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ohhh my god in high school calculus was my favorite class. I definitely was not the smartest person in that room, and it was amazing to see how many people didn't understand what was going on.
jacob_ewing · 3 points · Posted at 19:46:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I loved it! Even better the second time around!
[deleted] · 4 points · Posted at 17:59:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
LordFerguson · 1 points · Posted at 18:42:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Underrated comment right here.
mswas · 1 points · Posted at 19:01:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Hey Kimo!
skylinrcr01 · 2 points · Posted at 18:10:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Calc is just something that seems to scare a lot of people off. I found it easier than trig.
Barne · 3 points · Posted at 18:27:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well what about integrating using trig substitution? Calculus is harder than trig for a couple of reasons, one of them being that you use trig all the time in calc. Trig in itself isn't very hard, just a lot of memorization.
skylinrcr01 · 1 points · Posted at 18:32:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I dunno, calc just seemed to click more for me, maybe it was the possibilities of its use like in physics and stuff. Trig seemed like it had a steeper learning curve, but it could have been that I just didn't really care about trig at the time. Also my calc teacher was a lot better.
Reshi86 · 1 points · Posted at 23:38:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I marked in math so I only took Gen physics 1 and 2 but we did virtually all of it with algebra and trig. Of course all of it could be done with Calculus but it wasnt necessary. The only part I recall that had to use Calc was a few parts of E&M
proboardslolv5 · 1 points · Posted at 19:10:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I love trig, and can do calculus pretty well with typical polynomials, but when you bring trig functions into calculus, it's just fucking stupid
p1gswillfly · 1 points · Posted at 18:06:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Look. I know my calculus...its you + me = us
PM_ME_NUDE_PICZ · 3 points · Posted at 18:48:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Now I wanna lie tangent to your curves.
MicrosoftTay · 1 points · Posted at 18:35:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's not that hard to learn, it just requires practice and patience. You also have to follow somewhat of an order in learning it as everything builds off of the previous, so you also have to really learn the beginner stuff to get to the more advanced, useful stuff.
eckadagan · 1 points · Posted at 19:34:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
PEMDAS.....
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:57:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Also don't tell me your math class is hard when your in COLLEGE ALGEBRA.
raindropmangoes · 1 points · Posted at 20:47:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Am engineering student. Can confirm I suck at math :)
Plantbitch · 1 points · Posted at 21:12:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
God I love math. I got to calc 2 before I took a different direction and needed to concentrate on other subjects. I commented above about how some butthead told me I was bad at math while trying to explain percentages to him. I was very offended because I'm not good at a whole lot, but math is one of them.
tpklus · 1 points · Posted at 18:10:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I love math. I particularly love statistics. But, calculus I could never understand.
AllisGreat · 2 points · Posted at 21:05:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But there's a lot of calculus involved in stats...
tpklus · 1 points · Posted at 22:18:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's the mystery
[deleted] · -1 points · Posted at 19:06:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Was when I realized I might actually be smart like my doctors said. I figured out some basics of calculus in 6th grade alegbra on my own.
DoctorWetFartz · 1157 points · Posted at 14:25:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You shouldn't take prolonged breaks on your phones at your equipment at the gym because other people are waiting to use it. Incredible how oblivious some people can get
Edit: As I've stated in a reply further below, I am all for taking breaks between sets because it is necessary to have a safe, energized workouts but people seem to gloss over the word prolonged. I'm talking about people who hog machines for ridiculous amounts of time after sets because time passes unbeknownst to them while they're texting away, impeding with other people's workouts
not_a_toaster · 306 points · Posted at 16:56:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I look at my phone while resting in between sets. I have a timer set so I'm not taking more time than I need to, and if someone wants to use the equipment I'm using, I'm more than happy to alternate.
I've seen people having full-on phone conversations in the gym for over half an hour, doing nothing in between though. Those people can fuck off.
Protistas · 42 points · Posted at 17:57:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah I don't really think there's anything wrong with looking at a phone screen while resting instead of staring at a wall or some cute guy's ass. Plus humans can always do that thing where they use their mouth to make sounds and ask you if they could use the machine
packardpa · 5 points · Posted at 18:42:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In my personal opinion, I'd much rather look at a phone screen than a guys ass. But that's just me.
[deleted] · 10 points · Posted at 19:01:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I respectfully disagree. I would much rather appreciate the amount of hardwork and dedication that went into sculpting those glutes.
daitoshi · 2 points · Posted at 19:48:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Those calves tho
officialsushi · 2 points · Posted at 18:51:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No look at our asses
Equipoisonous · 6 points · Posted at 18:45:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
To be fair though I'd feel really stupid and annoying if I'm trying to alternate sets with a dude benching 100 pounds more than me.
not_a_toaster · 2 points · Posted at 19:42:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oh yeah, in that case it would be more of a pain in the ass to switch the weights around than to just wait.
Lutcikaur · 3 points · Posted at 17:53:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
yup i keep my timer on my phone running and use the lap function to time breaks inbetween sets as well. I found if i dont do that i'll end up either having a 10 second break or a 5 minute one. oops.
bdjenkin · 4 points · Posted at 18:30:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
One time there was this middle-aged guy literally asleep on the leg press machine. Just grabbing a power nap I guess ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
bjarcher · 1 points · Posted at 11:35:23 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
I made an iPhone app for timing rest periods at the gym, which I had just uploaded when I saw this comment. If anyone is interested, it would be cool to have people check it out! It's free and has no ads. I do apologise for the shameless self promotion though I know that's not what reddit's about.
https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/gymtime-time-your-rest-periods-at-the-gym/id1271701845?ls=1&mt=8
TeffyWeffy · 198 points · Posted at 15:14:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This could really be for all things while on your phone. Standing in line to checkout, blocking the sidewalk, grocery aisle, and on and on.
If you need to be a phone zombie please have the courtesy to first step out of the way, against a wall, etc and let others by.
sandm000 · 15 points · Posted at 17:29:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If I'm waiting for the cashier to be done with the customer in front of me, why can't I be on my phone? It's not like there should be a flow of traffic going around me. We're all literally queued up, waiting to get to that person. Maybe I don't understand this example.
TeffyWeffy · 5 points · Posted at 17:40:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I meant more the people who are on their phone instead of putting their items on the counter, or putting in their payment info. That one isn't the best of most annoying examples compared to standing in walking lanes everywhere.
dubman42 · 12 points · Posted at 16:42:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Phone zombies on elevators really bugs the shit out of me. Constantly getting off on the wrong floor only to stop the door from closing to get back on. Motherfucker get off your damn phone for the 10 seconds it takes you to use the elevator.
Many times I've pictured myself kicking them square in the chest "YOU ALREADY MADE YOUR CHOICE!"
RichWPX · 2 points · Posted at 19:48:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
THIS IS SPARTA
...falls down elevator shaft.
peteybird22 · 4 points · Posted at 18:42:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ugh just the other day I was behind someone on a phone while riding an escalator. As she stepped off, she stayed right on the metal platform, totally oblivious to the fact that I was about to be thrust into her by the moving stairs.
Edited for grammar.
Dr_Winston_O_Boogie · 8 points · Posted at 15:36:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I never go to a gym. You're welcome.
TeffyWeffy · 6 points · Posted at 16:20:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I actually don't either, I work out at home, cause I'll go along with this whole exercise to keep in shape thing but I'll be damned if I put on shorts/pants and drive somewhere to do it.
littlegirlghostship · 6 points · Posted at 17:14:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I just made a small "Aaaahh" of jealousy at your pantsless workout abilities.
TeffyWeffy · 5 points · Posted at 17:45:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It really is the best. I don't have to wear any extra clothes, I can listen to my music as loud as I want on speakers. I can probably do most my workout in the time that people take to get ready, drive to the gym and get started. And then I'm 30 feet from my shower.
People always ask how I find the motivation to work out alone at home. I'm not sure how they find the motivation to put on pants and go outside just to go inside another building to workout with a bunch of people you don't know sweating and making noise around you.
littlegirlghostship · 3 points · Posted at 18:03:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
For me it's not at all about motivation...I just live in a small apartment with no equipment space and have no money to buy it anyway.
Plus I have a gym at the apartment building I can use for free...still considered public though :-/
Ya-Dikobraz · 9 points · Posted at 17:16:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Using your phone = phone zombie.
tertan8 · 2 points · Posted at 17:38:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I mean some people use their phones between sets when they're on "break" for a minute or two.
Duuhh_LightSwitch · 3 points · Posted at 19:10:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I have less issue with the use of the phone than the length of the breaks. You don't get to sit on the bench for 5 minutes between every set Anthony!
BodyMindGains · 1 points · Posted at 19:56:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If he's a powerlifter, that very well may be exactly how long he needs to wait between heavy sets.
Duuhh_LightSwitch · 2 points · Posted at 19:57:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I can tell the difference between a power lifter and someone who's just chilling on the equipment
BodyMindGains · 0 points · Posted at 20:15:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Maybe...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8XKNTJa0iM
This guy can bench over 400 pounds at 150 lbs.
Duuhh_LightSwitch · 2 points · Posted at 20:19:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But if they're on the equipment, I could see what they were lifting.
If you've been to a gym, you know people linger. I don't begrudge people doing their shit, just be considerate
TeffyWeffy · 1 points · Posted at 17:51:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I mean, I don't go to the gym, so I have no issue with this one, but I'd imagine it's the same as the other situations, it's not so much that you're checking your phone, but just step the hell back out of the way first.
Just a little bit of awareness and consideration about the space you occupy would make things nicer almost everywhere.
wolfgirlnaya · 1 points · Posted at 18:29:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not just with phones, though. If you need to stop and look at something in the store, stop and look for your car, or just generally stop for anything where you would normally be moving, then step aside. Don't just halt in the doorway or in the middle of the aisle. It's fucking annoying.
And ffs, parking lots are not legal roads, but you should still look before going! There may not be a stop sign there but there's not one going the other way, either, so take half a second to peek around the corner before nearly pulling out into someone.
DaddyCatALSO · 1 points · Posted at 18:35:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well, ina checkout aisle you're waiting on the folks ahead of you already
growlingbear · 1 points · Posted at 19:38:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You know what's fun? Listen to their conversation and then interject tidbits.
I started talking to a guy that was on the phone once, He kept talking on the phone and I'd say "Huh? What?" He pointed to his phone. I was like Yeah I don't care. So hot enough for ya?
moose_powered · 1 points · Posted at 17:23:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Upvoted for 'phone zombie'. I'm going to use that.
lesdoggg · 44 points · Posted at 17:14:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
quit rest shaming
Druid51 · 11 points · Posted at 18:48:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you're not resting your set quality is probably shite or your sets are too easy.
liqamadik · 36 points · Posted at 17:08:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
To counter this point, I've noticed people don't understand that regardless of how strong you are, large weights require large breaks. Every time I go to the gym with newcomers and we do similar reps of equally personally challenging weights, they end up criticising me on my recovery time. I'm no biologist and I have no idea why it's the case, but trust me I need my phone time after sets. I'm not tryna sit on a bench for 2 minutes thinking about life.
chuckymcgee · 4 points · Posted at 17:58:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I've noticed myself getting annoyed seeing people browsing their phone between sets and then realizing that I have no idea how long they've actually been there. I'm doing my own shit, I'm not really timing people, and the few times I've moved around my routine because someone was occupying a space and browsing their phone it doesn't seem like they were taking noticeably longer than anyone else to finish. For all I know they took exactly as long as someone else without a phone, but I guess because I thought they might be enjoying themselves they somehow might be slower and not as motivated to finish quickly as someone who would have to stare at a wall.
Now I judge a little less.
Druid51 · 4 points · Posted at 18:50:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
More mass needs more recovery and I guess we're just fookin hyooge.
RogerDeanVenture · 6 points · Posted at 17:26:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
On the flip side to that... Speak up if you're looking to get in on a machine. People get annoyed about taking too much time, but then quietly sit there and glare at the rack from the other side of the gym.
Approach me and ask, "hey what do you have left?" if it is a lot, or I just got started maybe ask, "mind if I work in with you?" I pretty much never mind Sharing a rack with somebody. In fact I encourage it because it makes use of the equipment during rest.
If I'm almost done? Eh maybe just chill for a rep or two and hang out - offer to spot if needed, or do stretches.
I've never had a bad encounter at the gym talking to people or sharing a rack. Everybody is there to work out and I find so many people eager to share their routines and diets and successes.
But please don't share bench equipment without wiping or using towels. Sharing sweat is gross yo.
RogerDeanVenture · 6 points · Posted at 17:19:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Get your curls the fuck out of the squat rack!
ozmethod · 1 points · Posted at 18:15:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Genuine question: is overhead press in the rack as blatant a crime?
RogerDeanVenture · 2 points · Posted at 18:25:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't think so... Squat racks often have bars that are about the right hight to start at for an overhead press and allows you to do the exercise without moving the weight between the ground and your chest.
Squats racks are really just 'racks' imo, and should be used for rack exercises.
If your rack has spot bars that adjust for it, I'd even be fine with somebody benching in the rack if they need that spot bar security.
If your gym is crowded, racks are often the best place to do deadlifts and rows (ours actually has shin high racks for these)...
Curls in the squat rack is a literal phrase... But also more to highlight the idea of recognizing if there is a better place to perform your exercise.
ozmethod · 1 points · Posted at 19:03:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Cool. Although. Aren't DLs/Rows meant to be done from the floor, not shin height? Are these alternate variations or something?
RogerDeanVenture · 1 points · Posted at 19:10:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A real low rack makes it easier to take the plates on and off. So you can throw on the first couple plates, then bring it to the floor.
Shin height for me is about how far a 45 brings the bar off the ground, so floor/shin is about the same for me on that. But if I had 25s on the bar, I'd want to bring them up a little bit.
UnderpaidSE · 2 points · Posted at 18:28:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Most definitely not. I'm not going to hangclean/powerclean my OHP weight. Curls can be done almost anywhere unlike OHP.
ozmethod · 1 points · Posted at 19:02:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Awesome. That was my justification, but I've only been lifting about 18 months, so it's entirely possible I still commit some faux pas.
tynorex · 6 points · Posted at 17:27:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I sit on my phone for the 3 minute resting period I need after my lifts. I get really frustrated with my "long" wait times too, but it's what I'm supposed to do for a proper workout. If I ever see people waiting I normally will try to rush it a little quicker, but I normally don't hold a machine/bench for more than ~15 minutes.
bpusef · 4 points · Posted at 18:30:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If people don't have the social skills to ask if they can work in while I'm resting then I really don't care. I'm staying out of people's way and if you want what I'm on then just ask. I'm not going to get up and sit in a corner because people are too afraid to have a 3 second conversation.
tynorex · 1 points · Posted at 18:48:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't know if my gym is just really small or what but I've literally never had anyone ask to use a machine I'm using.
cmykinky · 10 points · Posted at 16:26:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But what about the people who go off and talk in-between sets while you give them a death glare for taking ages while you're waiting to get in? I don't particularly mind the phone people since, in my experience, they're usually using it to time their breaks while they dick around on the phone.
Jester2552 · 2 points · Posted at 17:54:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This fucking drives me nuts more than someone being on their phone between sets.
DoctorWetFartz · 7 points · Posted at 16:32:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There's nothing wrong with taking some time to take a needed break between sets; it's necessary for a safe, energized workout and everyone knows it. It's when people seem to sit there for 5+ minutes on their phone for "breaks" between multiple sets each time that it becomes truly inconsiderate
[deleted] · 16 points · Posted at 17:03:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
5 minutes is a pretty standard rest time for doing strength or power work in any of the major lifts. You want to be fully rested in between sets. 3-5 minutes of rest is typical for muscle building or endurance work, but anything for increasing your RFD or limit strength is better served with long rest periods.
Jorrissss · 7 points · Posted at 17:09:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
5 minutes is a long time (and it's what I do). I typically just offer to have the person work in with me if it's bench, or something like that.
[deleted] · 7 points · Posted at 17:11:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In all fairness, I do offer up a work-in if I'm at a public gym. I'm not fucking with my rest times just because someone is impatient and doesn't understand how to work out correctly. I workout in a private powerlifting and strength gym now so it's not really ever a problem. Everyone is basically running the same stuff anyways.
Jorrissss · 0 points · Posted at 17:42:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Nah, I wasn't saying you should or shouldn't - I don't really know if there is a proper etiquette. I was just commenting on something I do sometimes.
JZMoose · 2 points · Posted at 17:09:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah and longer breaks between sets mean others can usually work in.
Malkiot · 2 points · Posted at 17:35:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just ask to swap in between (if it's not too much of a hassle to change weights)?
I dislike people who use 2 or 3 things at the same time and go off to talk more.
this_is_balls · 3 points · Posted at 17:35:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Also if there's only one set of free weights, don't hog 6 dumbbells for 30 minutes.
calsosta · 3 points · Posted at 17:39:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It is absolutely within proper gym etiquette to ask to "work in" and as a courtesy, when you go to rest, you should put the weights back to what the other person had. They may or may not set your weights but you should still set theirs back. I shouldn't even need to say, you should use a towel or wipe down the machine in between sets.
AbeRego · 3 points · Posted at 17:40:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I understand the sentiment, but I'm going to be sitting there for recovery time between sets anyway. I just happen to be looking at my phone.
ZNasT · 3 points · Posted at 17:53:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There's also the people who put their phones on the bench-press bench while using the squat rack. Just put your shit on the ground, or on the window sill, or your pocket. Just don't take up an entire piece of equipment just for your phone.
ProlificChickens · 2 points · Posted at 16:29:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The gym for our apartment is right by the leasing office. We have a guy who will pace the gym floor, sit on random equipment, generally be loud and rude while talking on his phone.
And then leave.
He never works out, but apparently he feels like he does.
tynorex · 1 points · Posted at 17:29:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I've seen a guy do this at my gym. I'm convinced he tells his wife he's headed to the gym, dicks around for an hour and then goes home. Don't think I've ever seen him use a single machine.
ProlificChickens · 1 points · Posted at 19:18:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ludicrous. Go to a coffee shop or some shit. If your wife is going to follow you there, you've got other shit going on you need to fix besides lack of lifting.
ericfrancisrock · 2 points · Posted at 17:01:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you want me to get off the bench press you can just walk up and tell me. But there is another open one next to me
DJSBX · 2 points · Posted at 17:05:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When I do go to the gym for weight stuff, or anything that requires breaks, I use my phone to time my breaks, so even if I'm dicking around on my phone I will stop dicking around the second my alarm goes off to do my next set. It's not quite as black and white, but I will agree about people that take an exceedingly long break because they don't realize their break is probably over already.
994phij · 2 points · Posted at 17:25:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Don't forget that if somebody is taking a long break, you should ask if you can work in with them. Okay, it doesn't apply to all equipment, but does apply to most.
McPebbster · 1 points · Posted at 15:49:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This also applies for people walking out of doors, elevators, escalators, etc. to check where they need to go next (regardless of phone). There's people behind you, step aside!!
watermasta · 1 points · Posted at 17:47:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Unless i'm watching my timer when to get back to it.
Plus, I usually just want up to these people and say "Mind if i work in with you?" I have yet to be denied.
throwaway4anger · 1 points · Posted at 18:16:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I take 1.5-3 minutes rest between compound sets, and I like to browse social media during that time...you can either ask to work in or suck it up if you don't like it
HoosierProud · 1 points · Posted at 18:22:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Also, most people are willing to let you take turns on the equipment if you ask to work in with them
MostlyAngry · 1 points · Posted at 18:22:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
TBH I kinda wish people would just not use phones at the gym, period - but I know that's a ridiculous idea.
nsweezy · 1 points · Posted at 18:27:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Hey mate, do you have another set on this bench or...
Yeah, yeah bro. I'm just doing something it'll be a second
Half an hour passes
NoFapMat · 1 points · Posted at 18:29:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When I need to use anything that someone is sitting at, I always ask how many sets they have left. Easy way to get "Oh... you can use it now"
PM_ME_A_PM_PLEASE_PM · 1 points · Posted at 19:06:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My program has me take 3 to 5 minute rest between sets. I just ask people to work in. Also, r/fitness mods banned me for asking a question about a backpack so fuck them.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:29:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I mean you can take prolonged breaks. Just let other use the equipment while you rest. And you can go and ask if you can use the equipment while the others rest. You don't have to be the only one using the equipment.
shemperdoodle · 1 points · Posted at 19:32:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Use your words and ask if you can work in. I will say yes.
I need 3-5 minutes in between heavier sets, not going to spend it staring at a wall.
flnagoration · 1 points · Posted at 19:35:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
sounds exactly like my college roommate. saw him in the gym one on that sitting shoulder press deal. sat down, did a couple reps, sat on his phone for 5 minutes, coughing up a lung the whole time as he always did, another couple reps, another 4 minute break
heinekev · 1 points · Posted at 19:40:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If I'm resting between sets, I'll dick around on my phone. If you want to alternate sets with me, you gotta ask. Don't expect me to read your mind. Some folks use apps to track their progress, and between sets I'll update my log as I go.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:59:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Fuck you I pay the same amount as every off else. If I want to take a break when I'm doing a max set then I fucking will.
onfire9123 · 1 points · Posted at 20:51:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Also incredible how timid others are. People will refuse to actually speak up and ask for something.
Stomish · 1 points · Posted at 22:40:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I wait until my heart rate goes down to about 120bpm from 180, usually 3-4 minutes.
TobaccoAficionado · 1 points · Posted at 23:29:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"My muscles are doing more work during my rest than yours are while you're working out." - Dom Mazzetti
BananaFPS · 1 points · Posted at 17:47:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm guilty of this. I'll make sure I don't do that again
et3rnal98 · -3 points · Posted at 16:41:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sure, you go tell the 300lb power lifter that he should hurry up his 5 plate deadlift :P But seriously, yeah after a minute you should start getting ready for your next set...
Wafflecone416 · 19 points · Posted at 17:16:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not true. Rest periods between sets can be as long as 5 minutes if you're lifting for strength/power.
If you want to work in then you should get their attention and ask. If they're unreasonable at that point then they are in the wrong, but not if you don't initiate the conversation.
et3rnal98 · -2 points · Posted at 17:35:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah it was just a general rule of thumb. Of course if you're power lifting for strength training the time might be longer. I think 60-90s is a nice average wait time between sets for regular workouts.
Jorrissss · 6 points · Posted at 17:08:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But I wait 4-5 minutes between sets :(
triumphantV · 2 points · Posted at 17:15:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And that's totally fine, depends on the type of lifting style you are doing.
[deleted] · -10 points · Posted at 17:17:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's ridiculously long. Something like 90 percent of ATP is supposed to be replenished after 90 seconds. Lifting heavy should be a bit longer but you aren't recovering anymore with a 5 minute breaks vs a 3 minute ish.
SexLiesAndExercise · 5 points · Posted at 17:18:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And if you're lifting near your max, with low reps for strength, 3-5 minutes can be typical to get back to the near-100% numbers you need.
[deleted] · -10 points · Posted at 17:20:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A big strong man like you and the other poster will be fine after 3 minutes. Anything longer is a waste of time. You won't ever get back to 100 percent within the span of your workout.
I promise you that next time you lift waiting 5 minutes vs 3 wont allow you to lift any more. Just try it and be amazed at your bodies abilities.
Edit: I apologize if I offended the athletes and weight lifters of Reddit but if you are waiting 5 minutes between sets you are just lazy. There is no way it should take you nearly a half hour to do a 5 x 5 workout.
Jorrissss · 9 points · Posted at 17:45:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is of course a completely idiotic statement.
[deleted] · -4 points · Posted at 17:46:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Lazy or inconsiderate I guess. One or the other.
Jorrissss · 5 points · Posted at 17:49:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I see you are as mentally lazy as you find others to be physically.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 17:53:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Says the guy who hasn't offered any explanation for why he sits around 5 minutes in between sets for no reason.
Jorrissss · 2 points · Posted at 17:55:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I did offer an explanation lol.
But either way, I see no reason to think that people who wait 5 minutes between sets are lazy, or inconsiderate. If you look around you will see plenty of sources which state 3-5 minutes is optimal for strength training. It could be that we are working off inaccurate information, but that is neither lazy nor inconsiderate. Sometimes people are just wrong.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:59:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Alright that's fair. Sorry for being a dick. I think you could likely get away with shorter rest times without seeing a decrease in performance is all I'm saying.
Jorrissss · 1 points · Posted at 18:30:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's all good! :)
SexLiesAndExercise · 4 points · Posted at 17:56:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There's no need to be so patronising about it.
I'm not claiming to be an expert or anything, but I've literally just come off 6 months of Stronglifts 5x5. It's a strength program for the big lifts. 5 sets of 5 reps, 90 seconds between them. Increase weight by 5lbs every session. That is basically fine for the first 2/3 months until you start hitting ceilings.
As per the app, if I was seriously struggling to hit 5 reps, I'd wait 3 minutes instead of 90 seconds. If I failed to hit 5 reps, it would tell me to wait 5 minutes. From experience, there is a huge difference in making the next set with a 5 minute wait and a 3 minute wait. I was doing this for months. It was a regular experience.
Now don't get me wrong. This leads to super long workouts and I've since switched to PHUL, with more stringent limits on how much I can rest in between sets to save time. However, for a purely strength-focused progression, 5 minute rests had an immediate impact on how many reps I could push out, and potentially a longer term impact on increasing weights lifted.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:08:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You have NO CLUE what you are talking about. Try a powerlifting dead workout like 12x2 at 80-90% 1rm and you will not only need 5+ minutes between sets but possibly a break for some fuel 2/3 of the way through. A workout like that, done at proper intensity, can easily take 90-100 minutes
Jorrissss · 2 points · Posted at 17:44:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Could be. But I do know that when I moved onto 5 minutes between sets I started to have really good results again. Might only be psychological, but I can't argue with the results.
mazer_rack_em · 1 points · Posted at 17:55:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:02:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A 300lb powerlifter that can only deadlift 5 plate sucks
bpusef · 1 points · Posted at 18:32:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
5 a side baby.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:48:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I know, I can do it
Druid51 · 1 points · Posted at 18:56:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Still meh. Good regular lifter but not a good powerlifter.
WomanOfEld · 0 points · Posted at 16:57:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
this happens a lot at my gym, and the trainers are starting to crack down (a little) on it.
adlj · 0 points · Posted at 17:46:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm literally doing this right now. Shit.
chucklesthe2nd · 462 points · Posted at 14:43:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Literally 99% of everything is made of chemicals. The definition of a chemical is a compound comprised of more than one element. And no something is not inherently worse if it's synthetic, botulinum, the deadliest shit known to human kind is naturally produced by bacteria.
If some add campaign tries to sell their shit by saying all natural and chemical free they're talking out their ass and trying to manipulate you.
Edit: As to the other 1%, by convention pure elements generally aren't considered chemicals because they can't be refined by chemical processes.
Emeraldis_ · 67 points · Posted at 16:44:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"That's it, Little Timmy, no food for you, I hear it all contains chemicals!"
HopefullyMrFixit · 12 points · Posted at 18:20:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
God Dammit Marie, they're minerals!
HopefullyMrFixit · 6 points · Posted at 18:21:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I fucked up
the-camster · 32 points · Posted at 14:46:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"Naturally carcinogenic."
See what I'm getting at here? Just because they're "natural", doesn't make all of them benign.
briaen · 9 points · Posted at 19:20:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Our poison dart frog legs are 100% natural.
HeckIncarnate · 4 points · Posted at 19:53:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Did you know that poison dart frogs are not toxic on their own but rather gain their toxins from what they eat? Pet poison dart frogs fed in captivity are non toxic.
briaen · 7 points · Posted at 20:01:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sorry, I forgot to include wild caught and free range in my description.
learath · 30 points · Posted at 17:11:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I strongly support all the anti-chemical people boycotting all chemicals.
twopointohyeah · 18 points · Posted at 18:26:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Let's all boycott dihydrogen monoxide.
[deleted] · 10 points · Posted at 18:55:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, that shits everywhere! I heard the government puts it in the water... OUR WATER!!! Please contact your local representative and ask the about all the dihydrogen monoxide in the water. They will just blow you off and pretend it's nothing they'll tell you you're crazy. It's a cover up, wake up sheeple!!!
Eyball440 · 2 points · Posted at 21:21:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's a waste product from NUCLEAR POWER, and it comes right out of your tap!
yottalogical · 23 points · Posted at 14:59:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That is true for Earth, but if you want to get even more technical, nearly nothing in the Universe is a chemical.
lol-community · 11 points · Posted at 16:43:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Unless you count hydrogen.
philsown · 5 points · Posted at 17:11:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, but how much of that is there, really? /s
yottalogical · 1 points · Posted at 14:34:44 on August 17, 2017 · (Permalink)
Most of the universe is dark energy. Not hydrogen.
heyheyheygoodbye · 9 points · Posted at 18:13:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm not a chemist, but this had me curious. From what I've found the definition of a chemical is: anything that has mass. Anything consisting of matter is a chemical. Any liquid, solid, gas. Any pure substance; any mixture.
What is an element that wouldn't be a chemical?
SlipperyFrob · 6 points · Posted at 20:03:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think physicists would argue that electrons/protons/whatever have mass, but aren't "chemicals" in any normal sense.
skysophrenic · 3 points · Posted at 18:32:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Technically that is correct, but for practical reasons pure elements are not usually considered chemicals. It is much more practical to just refer to pure elements as just... elements rather and chemicals as compounds.
heyheyheygoodbye · 7 points · Posted at 18:52:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Chemical element
Chemical compound
It seems to me the wrong word is being dropped.
nononowaitok · 3 points · Posted at 18:45:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
if we are going to get all "for practical purposes" on this bs then absolutely need to think more narrow. For laymen, chemicals are things that are processed and made in labs vs things that are grown in the ground and made by your crazy neighbor Betsy for her online candle business.
dewcew72 · 9 points · Posted at 16:30:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I like your comment. Just trying to figure out what the other 1% is made out of???
chucklesthe2nd · 12 points · Posted at 16:36:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Elements. Anything made completely of 1 element isn't a chemical.
lIamachemist · 2 points · Posted at 18:09:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Why not?
Idiot_Savant_Tinker · 7 points · Posted at 18:29:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't think that's how it works...
SPACKlick · 6 points · Posted at 18:58:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Elements are chemicals. They are the chemical elements. Pretty much everything is made of chemicals. Thng that aren't made of chemicals include;
aether10 · 3 points · Posted at 19:35:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Mm, but I think that most of us understand the colloquial subtext intended when people talk about chemicals or 'natural' things in these contexts and most don't literally think that 'natural' products are chemical-free, just that they supposedly lack artificially synthesised chemicals and substances.
I do think that the term is intentionally misleading, obfuscates the meaning of chemical, and paints all such substances to be negative unfairly, but I don't think 90% of people aren't aware of what's really being implied.
ACuddlySnowBear · 4 points · Posted at 18:05:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm curious as to what the 1% of everything isn't made of chemicals
_SONNEILLON · 0 points · Posted at 19:32:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Probably light and emf
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:27:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
so long as it doesn't have any toxins, I'm good.
deltaexdeltatee · 2 points · Posted at 19:36:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My wife is a chemistry teacher and this annoys the SHIT out of her, along with "if you can't pronounce it, it doesn't belong in your food." She found these awesome posters where some chemist made "nutritional information labels" for fruits and veggies, the list of "ingredients" is hella long and I've never even heard of 99% of the shit that's in there.
I mean sure I get that when it comes to food, some companies are/have been unethical or unscrupulous about what they put in food to make it cheap, tasty, and last long, and some artificial stuff is really not good for you (looking at YOU, high-fructose corn syrup!), but the shorthands that activists come up with are incredibly imprecise and misleading.
Saying "eating natural food products is usually better for you then eating artificial foods" is probably true by and large, but there are just massive amounts of exceptions to that, and "the name of that ingredient looks scary!" is just an insanely shitty metric to use when judging whether you should eat something.
femalebot · 2 points · Posted at 19:41:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When they say chemical, they usually mean the colloquial term, not the literal term. Not really that hard to figure out...
JahRockasha · 1 points · Posted at 19:32:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I like this. People see something as synthetic and think it's bad. Synthetic compound vs natural compounds are identical. Maybe there would be an isotope difference in certain situations. But we would be talking about extremely minute differences.
Crazy_Asian_Man · 1 points · Posted at 20:14:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I hate this distinction. People always give me this confused look when I tell them I study synthetic organic chemistry, then I gotta be like "did I stutter?"
JahRockasha · 1 points · Posted at 20:25:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Haha, that's funny. Reaction, column, spectra, reaction, column, spectra. I always felt that organic is super cool but holy cow can it be labor intensive! I spent so much time using and learning about nmr to possibly never use it in materials chem. :/
Purely_Theoretical · 1 points · Posted at 19:50:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Elements are chemicals. For those of you saying they are not called chemicals in practice, you're wrong.
WooliestKnees · 1 points · Posted at 19:56:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm decently sure that the deadliest shit known to human kind is global thermonuclear war, but you know. Still chemicals.
forbiddendoughnut · 1 points · Posted at 20:04:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Does that mean water is technically a chemical?
MaximRecoil · 1 points · Posted at 20:08:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
False. "Elements" is just a shortened form of the full name, which is "chemical elements" - https://www.britannica.com/science/chemical-element
The broader category is "chemical substance" (often shortened to just "chemical"), which includes, e.g., chemical elements and chemical compounds.
Dascandy · 1 points · Posted at 20:11:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So air is not chemicals?
tvdinner4me · 1 points · Posted at 20:35:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't know where you're getting elements aren't chemicals. Pure hydrogen is just a hydrogen atom, but is extremely unstable and will want to to form H2 through a chemical reaction.
Mechasteel · 1 points · Posted at 01:49:51 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Some people use "chemical" as a shorthand for "compounds which have not been tested throughout multiple lifetimes and to which humans have not had the time to adapt". It doesn't help that a lot of them are added to food as a poison/preservative, or to trick the senses possibly to hide poor nutritional value.
calembo · 1 points · Posted at 02:18:23 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'll add to this: it's not a real selling point to tell me your non-GMO-eligible food is non-GMO. It's like telling me a tomato is vegan. Let's not even start with what GMOs actually are or do.
isisishtar · 1 points · Posted at 18:04:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And that other 1%?
Magic.
lIamachemist · 0 points · Posted at 18:09:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
99%? You mean 100%, right?
skysophrenic · -2 points · Posted at 18:29:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Technically: no, things that are energy ie: Light, sound; or forces ie: gravity, magnetism.
Also Technically (for all matter): Yes, it would be 100%
Pragmatic definition however for chemistry: No, because pure elements ala O2 or H2 etc are generally not considered chemicals.
lIamachemist · 7 points · Posted at 18:30:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
As a chemist, this is news to me.
Edit: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_substance "A chemical substance (also called a pure substance) may well be defined as "any material with a definite chemical composition" in an introductory general chemistry textbook.[4] According to this definition a chemical substance can either be a pure chemical element or a pure chemical compound."
Solphege · 0 points · Posted at 20:07:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Must agree with you, but yet again, definitions of certain things change wildly depending on the particular field, language/country, as there is no world consensus as to what a "chemical" is. Might also help that chemical is usually followed by another word (compound/substance or idk what) to give more detail about what is being referred to.
Chinstrap_1 · 39 points · Posted at 15:11:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Why are there holes in bagels? [I'm am part of the 90% here]
Patch95 · 60 points · Posted at 17:17:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So they cook quickly and evenly, as they are boiled in water with a bit of sugar, otherwise it would take too long to cook the inside before the outside was done
Cranky_Kong · 32 points · Posted at 15:38:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Originally sold on moving carts the holes were so they could be stacked on hooks or poles for transportation.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 16:33:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
TIL
CaptainMoonman · 4 points · Posted at 17:43:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It also gives more surface area so they cook faster and more evenly.
CrossFox42 · 2 points · Posted at 17:49:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This was my thought on it. I just figured it was how they were cooked to make an evenly cooked product.
randarrow · 0 points · Posted at 20:04:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Who is the most popular guy at the nudist club?
aRabidGerbil · 2 points · Posted at 17:25:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It helps them cook faster and more evenly
Spinolio · 2 points · Posted at 17:19:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There are a lot of foods shaped with a hole in the middle to promote even cooking - for example, a bundt cake without the characteristic ring shape would be overcooked on the outside before the center was fully cooked. Bagels, to some extent, benefit from this as well. It also increases the surface area of the food, which is important for things that rely on a crust or browning for their flavor and texture.
catjuggler · 1 points · Posted at 18:09:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Cooks faster/evenly, like a bundt cake.
airjam21 · 162 points · Posted at 17:21:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I swear it's taxes. I've lost count of how many times I've heard something like "my wife went back to work, but it moved us up into the next tax bracket and we paid out more money in higher taxes than she was bringing in." No, that's just not how it works.
wrong_assumption · 53 points · Posted at 18:10:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's money. Most people don't understand money, period.
[deleted] · 20 points · Posted at 18:58:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
DecorationOnly · 7 points · Posted at 19:35:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Talking points they hear from equally obvious people.
N2O_Hero · 6 points · Posted at 19:58:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oblivious
Sucksessful · 5 points · Posted at 20:17:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
obviously oblivious
N2O_Hero · 2 points · Posted at 20:18:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Obliviously obvious
DecorationOnly · 3 points · Posted at 20:32:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
F'ing autocorrect. the computers are already trying to break down communication between people
N2O_Hero · 2 points · Posted at 20:51:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's HAPPENING
DecorationOnly · 2 points · Posted at 20:52:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No, no, no. Computers are trying to get us, not the trees.
lutiana · 7 points · Posted at 19:24:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well they probably did pay out more that it was worth to have her work, however I highly doubt it was merely taxes that did it. I'd guess other factors came into play, perhaps benefits? Daycare? More than a few people I know seem to consider their benefit payments to be a tax, though it's not. And some others looked at the cost of daycare vs income earned by the parent who was not working to raise the kid and ultimately realized they'd lose money on that deal (they had twins and a toddler, daycare is ridiculously expensive around here).
There is a magically trick of numbers that does sometimes (very seldomly though) equate to lower take home pay after a raise. It has happened to me, but it was not just the increased tax burden that did it, it was everything that lined up (increased benefits cost, higher tax rate on some of the income and some other minor changes). Thankfully it was short lived.
dscott06 · 0 points · Posted at 19:59:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It actually can work exactly like that. It's called the marriage penalty. For example, if I and my fiancé both make 90,000, under the current bracket we each pay 25% in taxes. Once we get married and file together, our income now puts us in the 28% bracket. Likewise, if I make $233,000 and she doesn't work, we are in the 28% bracket. If my wife goes back to work and makes more than $350, the tax bill on the money I make goes up by roughly $10k because we are now in the 33% bracket, and that's before we starting figuring out the taxes and social security and whatnot on what she is making.
Even if her going back to work doesn't end up in a tax bill that is literally higher than either her nominal pay or her take home, it can be pretty easy for the increased tax bill to be high enough that the overall increase in take home pay is not worth the hours she's putting into her new job. If she got a 40k a year job at 40 hours a week, in terms of joint income, she's effectively only making about 30k due to how much more we are paying on my taxes. And instead of paying 10%, 15%, on 25% on various chunks of it like a single person making 40k would, she/we are now paying 33% on the entire 40k. That's another $13,200, bringing her income for her 40 hours a week easily below 20k a year, and that's before you start pulling social security and everything else out of it. Would you work 40 hours a week at a 40k/year job for ~15k a year in take home? I sure as hell wouldn't.
Edit: I'm an idiot, the bit about her income increasing my tax bill is entirely incorrect. Her entire income would be taxed at 33% however, which often makes it not worth the labor even if it doesn't literally result in a lower income - and arguably it could result in a lower income if we are now paying someone for things like child care that she used to take care of.
KakariBlue · 2 points · Posted at 03:27:21 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
The first example makes sense (90k at 25% or 180k at 28%) but the second one doesn't seem quite right (please tell me where I'm wrong) as brackets are on the amount in the bracket. So if we simplify and say that 233k is the cut off for 28% and your partner makes 1k then you are only taxed at 33% for that additional 1k. Meaning your tax bill is increased by 0.33*1000 = $330, not ~10k.
So while the rest of your point as to that whole 40k being taxed at 33% and how that may not be personally worthwhile is spot on, I don't see how the $350 in your example (or 1k in mine because I don't like hard math) translates to an out of proportion increase.
Edit: are we running into AMT or something?
dscott06 · 2 points · Posted at 03:30:36 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oh I'm an idiot, you are correct. That's what I get for doing this in pieces during the work day. Regardless, the marriage penalty is a thing, and being in a high bracket can make having a spouse go back to work not be worth it, even if it's not literally resulting in a lower total income.
[deleted] · 214 points · Posted at 14:02:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
poo-boys-united · 205 points · Posted at 14:25:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
the world "healthy" in general, i feel.
I hear so many people saying "oh that's not healthy, it has loads of calories". Calorie content, in my opinion, doesn't equate to the healthiness of the food. If something is incredibly dense in nutrients and vitamins, even if it has a lot of calories it should still be considered healthy.
Chinstrap_1 · 75 points · Posted at 15:06:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Because a calorie is a unit of energy. No such thing as a "good calorie" or "bad calorie" - it is simply a discrete amount of energy required to raise 1g of water by 1 degree Celsius
shleppenwolf · 10 points · Posted at 17:41:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No, but there's such a thing as big calories and little calories...the one used in nutrition is a thousand of the one you describe.
OwariNeko · 2 points · Posted at 20:30:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Huh... I didn't know they listed it as "calories" on food items in America.
In Denmark it's listed as "kcal" and people only call it "calories" because they don't know any better.
Hyndis · 1 points · Posted at 21:46:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Its the same thing. The only difference is that in the US people have mostly dropped using the prefix kilo. The kilo part may not be listed on American packaging but its still the same unit of energy.
OwariNeko · 1 points · Posted at 21:51:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I know that but thanks anyway.
flnagoration · 1 points · Posted at 20:10:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
big if true
shleppenwolf · 1 points · Posted at 14:15:44 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Wikipedia is your friend...;-)
Hyndis · 1 points · Posted at 21:45:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Kilo-calories are used for food. However the kilo prefix has mostly been dropped so its just calories. Sometimes you do see it listed as kcals, but mostly its just calories, sans the kilo- prefix.
Calories (the non-kilo kind) are such a tiny unit of energy they're not relevant unless you're a single celled organism.
shleppenwolf · 1 points · Posted at 14:20:18 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
More to the point, the physics and engineering communities want nothing to do with calories, because the definitions are tainted by misuse. Energy is measured in joules.
Hyndis · 1 points · Posted at 16:50:20 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
The topic is calories in food, not energy in physics or engineering.
Being pedantic doesn't help the conversation.
shleppenwolf · 1 points · Posted at 19:25:30 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Using a demonstrably wrong name for a unit doesn't either. Food "calories" are kilocalories.
poo-boys-united · 11 points · Posted at 15:07:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I like science based explanations :) Thanks.
Pack670 · 2 points · Posted at 20:03:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Do note that his description of calorie is right, but food Calories (note the capitol c) are actually kilocalories. A calorie is ~4.18 joules but a Calorie is ~4.18 kilojoules. Doesn't really change anything but some people like the perspective.
saxygoalie · 12 points · Posted at 15:52:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Don't forget that 1 Calorie (food calorie) is actual 1 kilocalorie
Hurricane_Viking · 11 points · Posted at 17:23:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Technically correct, but people use it as more of a ratio of "calories to nutrients". 200 calories of spinach and 200 calories of doughnuts give the same amount of energy. The spinach will provide you with other vitamins and stuff that the doughnut doesnt, hence those are 'good' calories while the doughnuts are 'bad' or 'empty' calories.
CourierOfTheWastes · 1 points · Posted at 18:32:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
(The best kind of correct...)
anachronic · 3 points · Posted at 20:19:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I agree to a point, but think you have to look at the total package of what's wrapped around those calories.
Implying that 100 calories of french fries are exactly nutritionally the same as 100 calories of salad is very misleading, I think.
Eating a carrot is better than drinking a calorically equivalent amount of soda, because the carrot has vitamins and minerals and fiber that the soda does not.
If you have a set number of calories you can eat in a day, filling up on nutritionally sparse calories like soda and chips and cake will leave your health worse than eating better stuff like vegetables, whole grains, and beans.
kaett · 2 points · Posted at 18:01:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
there's also no way to determine (at least in the studies i've seen) how many of the calories that food contains are utilized by the body and how many are expelled as waste product.
[deleted] · 4 points · Posted at 17:12:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Your completely missing the point of the words good and bad in this situation and trying to use them in a misguided literal way. They do not designate wether the unit of energy is inherently good or bad, they refer to wether the calorie is nutritional dense or not (since a lot of nutrition is negligible in energy). The reason for this is because the health of a diet isn't well measured by just caloric intake, other nutrition is also an important factor. Thus the phrase good or bad calorie is a convenient way to explain whether something is nutritionally dense or not in comparison to its caloric content. Language can be figurative, get over it.
clubby37 · 2 points · Posted at 18:17:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
For doing formal chemistry, you're right, but we're talking about food calories here, so it's 1kg of water, not 1g.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calorie
CaptainObvious_1 · 2 points · Posted at 18:32:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Some calories make you feel more/less full, or have more/less vitamins. In the literal sense there is no such thing as a good/bad calorie, but in the practical sense there sure as hell is.
Eitdgwlgo · -1 points · Posted at 15:38:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Except for that's not the way language works. 400 calories of chicken breast is a good calorie when used that way while 400 calories or chocolate cake is a bad calorie because it has no nutrients.
MaximRecoil · 3 points · Posted at 20:20:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is a good example of someone who doesn't understand what calories are. It's impossible for a substance with "no nutrients" to have even one food calorie, let alone 400. A substance with "no nutrients" has exactly zero food calories, by definition.
Eitdgwlgo · -2 points · Posted at 20:45:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Are you autistic? There's no need to be so thick if you aren't I've reiterated twice now that when people are using these words they aren't being literal.
MaximRecoil · 3 points · Posted at 21:10:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Your entire post is a non sequitur. Now, to see if you know what you're talking about or not (or if you can figure it out with the help of Google), go ahead and explain why it's impossible for something with no nutrients to have any food calories.
By the way, the minimum that something with 400 food calories can have is ~1.6 ounces of pure nutrients, which is a far cry from "no nutrients".
Eitdgwlgo · -2 points · Posted at 21:12:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You fuck. It's not literal.
MaximRecoil · 3 points · Posted at 21:19:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Your non sequitur is dismissed, Slow Doug. Also, your lack of a relevant reply is a tacit admission that you don't know what you're talking about.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 16:39:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
jivow · 10 points · Posted at 18:24:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
https://xkcd.com/169/
"Good calories" when said by a sane, modern person doesn't literally mean "good units of energy". It means "foodstuff that provide you not only the energy but also other nutrition and has a glycemic index that in combination allow you easier to have a healthy diet". And "bad calories" means "foodstuff that apart from being calorie-dense and/or having high glycemic index provide not much more".
And if you want to be THAT precise calories are insignificant. Any meaningful quantity will have at least few tens of kilocalories.
Jingy_ · 3 points · Posted at 19:52:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"bureaucrat Chinstrap_1, you are technically correct. THE BEST KIND OF CORRECT"
You're being pedantic and nitpicking a technicality of the words, purely for the sake of being technically correct.
No Good/Bad Calories is not a scientific measurement/category. But people(generally speaking) aren't trying to use it as one.
It IS however a TURN OF PHRASE, used to mean "A calories worth of nutritious food, vs, A calories worth of neutral or harmful food".
That is how Language works. Many perfectly valid phrases, whose meaning is perfectly clear(if you choose to see it), would be Technically "incorrect" if you choose to ignore context and intent and only pay attention to the dictionary definition of the individual words used.
If we were to try to completely avoid that, then all communication would be needlessly awkward, complicated and overly detailed.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 19:57:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Jingy_ · 2 points · Posted at 20:41:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
1: Disagreement on the idea that "90% of people don't understand this" part.
2: You were pedantically continuing to argue the technical definition of the words with someone who had already clearly indicated that they were referring to the functional use of the phrase. (which no longer fits the thread topic of "common misconceptions")
Eitdgwlgo · 4 points · Posted at 16:43:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Again you're being thick and not wanting to understand the way people are using these words. They're not using them absolutely literally.
BurnedOut_ITGuy · 16 points · Posted at 15:19:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It depends. If you're trying to lose weight and are eating 4,000 calories of food you're not going to be successful no matter what kinds of food you're eating or how nutritious they are.
poo-boys-united · 18 points · Posted at 15:20:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
True, but that is no reflection on how healthy the food is. It is a reflection on the diet of whomever we are referencing.
PolloMagnifico · -9 points · Posted at 16:12:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So, if I grind a multi vitamin and a spoonfull of fibersol into a chocolate cake, it magically becomes healthy?
Nope. If it's got a bunch of calories it's either A) too big to eat or B) filled with "empty calories" which... isn't healthy.
poo-boys-united · 5 points · Posted at 16:15:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
no because multivitamins are shite. Get your vitamins from actual food.
As someone mentioned a calorie is simply a unit of energy. For example, people think nuts are unhealthy because of the high calorie, high fat content. Eating a massive bag of nuts would be unhealthy, however nuts themselves are actually very healthy.
Your example is ridiculous.
PolloMagnifico · 1 points · Posted at 17:11:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Actually, nuts are a way better example! Sorry, I was at the doctors and needed something on the fly =)
And like you say, nuts in large quantities are terrible, but that's because they're high in calories. If you make a whole meal out of them (or make a habit of snacking on them too much), you're gonna get fat.
poo-boys-united · 6 points · Posted at 17:15:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes that's true. But they are still healthy food when eaten in reasonable quantities. Which is true of any nutritious, calorie dense food. Which is my point.
PolloMagnifico · 1 points · Posted at 17:25:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Then I believe we have had a misunderstanding exacerbated by (unintended) hyperbole and possibly medication.
poo-boys-united · 1 points · Posted at 17:26:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
hahaha. That sounds about right. My apologies for contributing to said understanding. Hope you weren't at the doctors for anythign serious! get well soon!
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:52:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
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BurnedOut_ITGuy · 9 points · Posted at 17:56:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There is no way you lost weight eating 4,000 calories a day unless you're grossly obese to begin with. A calorie really is a calorie. People have lost weight eating nothing but Twinkies.
TheRadishBros · 4 points · Posted at 18:00:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
All calories are the same. Unless your body was so huge it required more than 4000 per day to maintain, you can't lose weight just changing the type of food you gain those calories from.
[deleted] · -1 points · Posted at 17:58:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
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BurnedOut_ITGuy · 7 points · Posted at 18:03:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Weight has a very strong correlation with health. There are numerous studies of how being overweight causes everything from digestive problems to breathing problems to heart disease. Being overweight increases your chance of early death significantly.
[deleted] · -5 points · Posted at 18:16:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
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HopefullyMrFixit · 1 points · Posted at 18:18:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
if you're burning 5000 calories then you will be successful
[deleted] · -2 points · Posted at 19:14:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Now now that's just no true. People can eat 4k calories and still lose weight. Just because most Americans are couch potatoes doesn't mean all of us are.
BurnedOut_ITGuy · 3 points · Posted at 19:22:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The vast majority of people do not expend more than 4k of calories a day.
[deleted] · -1 points · Posted at 19:23:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Nope they dont. Yet you still used an absolute
PinkyBlinky · 5 points · Posted at 18:30:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's actually not exactly so simple. In the developed world, it's impossible to suffer a vitamin deficiency (and if you do it will be easily corrected by your doctor). For 99% of healthy people, by far the most important thing is maintaining a healthy weight. Since more than 70% of Americans are overweight, it's better that people adhere to the simplification that high calorie foods are unhealthy rather than think it's okay to eat a lot high calorie foods just because they contain vitamins, minerals, antioxidants, etc.
PM_ME_YOR_PANTIES · 6 points · Posted at 14:53:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Excessive healthy calories will still make you fat though.
poo-boys-united · 25 points · Posted at 14:55:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
yeah but that doesn't make the food unhealthy. That's the eater's fault for eating excessive healthy calories.
right_there · 5 points · Posted at 16:35:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's much more difficult to gain weight eating healthy. It takes 76 spears of broccoli to get the calories that are in a 2 liter bottle of Pepsi.
The quantities that you would have to eat to balloon would be enormous and impractical if you cut out processed foods.
Pm-Your-Nice-Tits · 2 points · Posted at 19:13:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I agree. You still need to consume calories to not die.
Just don't over-consume them. Keep it in check.
Personally, I eat whatever the fuck I want.. I just don't over-indulge. That's the key. You want that oven pizza and pan of brownies? Go for it. Just take it easy on your next meal and probably throw in a workout in between those meals.
anachronic · 2 points · Posted at 20:05:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I completely agree. I hear so many people giving out completely bonkers diet & health advice, it's ridiculous.
Describing how to eat healthy isn't hard. Eat mostly plants, eat lots of whole foods, minimize your intake of junk food like chips/ice cream, don't eat more calories than you burn, get a good balance of macros / vitamins, and exercise a bit. That's like 90% of it.
But it's pretty boring advice, so people instead gravitate to a new glitzy "miracle health cure" and fad diet du jour every 6 months.
poo-boys-united · 2 points · Posted at 20:08:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
yeah the diets piss me off, regardless of whether they work or not. I think most of them are designed to make the weight fall off of you quickly but a lot of them involve cutting out big food groups or whatever and nobody wants to do that forever. The most sustainable method is eating a balanced diet of sufficient calories.
anachronic · 1 points · Posted at 21:38:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I agree. I have one co-worker who always seems to be on some new unhealthy-sounding fad diet.
If it makes him happy, it's his life and I'm happy for him... but the explanations he's offered for a few of them sound really dodgy and very unhealthy and not based on any kind of sound science at all.
One of them is similar to atkins where he says he's getting something like 75% of his daily calories from fat and eats no carbs (meaning tons of healthy stuff like vegetables and beans are off the menu)
I can't see how that's remotely healthy in the long term, especially since high saturated fat intake has been pretty strongly linked to heart problems and high cholesterol.
Captain_Gainzwhey · 2 points · Posted at 20:19:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Everybody has such different nutritional needs that it's so hard to label anything as "healthy."
A lot of people will say replacing red med in your diet with tofu is healthy, but if you have a hormonal imbalance or a soy allergy, eating tofu could fuck your shit up.
Bladfyken · 2 points · Posted at 20:52:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I want to add to this, my rules are simple and effective:
Eat food that makes you smile (chocolate, steak etc ... what ever fliats your boat).
Stop eating when you are full (exception for christmas etc.)
Dont put in more energy than you burn.
Learn how to cook (at least the basics)
Try variety.
If food is fun, tasty, exciting - life is better. Having a good relationship with food is important, having a good relationship with your body is important, having a good relationship with your mind is important. So eating food that makes you happy, moving around a bit, and eating the right ammount is far more important than eating "healthy".
I think people on diets would me more happy with eating less, but still eating food that makes them smile. And dont buy into any other diet than the one that works: Burn more energy than you put in.
poo-boys-united · 1 points · Posted at 20:53:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
very well said
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 14:36:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
poo-boys-united · 3 points · Posted at 14:37:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
yeah, i kind of bitched out of not saying "in my opinion" in case i got trashed. I'm a bitch :(
onioning · 1 points · Posted at 16:51:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"Nutritious" is my favorite. It just means lots of nutrients. So a Big Mac is extremely nutritious.
isisishtar · 1 points · Posted at 18:06:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
'Healthful' would be better English. But no one knows that any more. The language has changed. Good food is now 'healthy'.
poo-boys-united · 1 points · Posted at 18:09:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oh really? i did not know this. Every day's a school day.
wrong_assumption · 1 points · Posted at 18:08:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Especially if you're taking to a cancer patient. Fat-filled shit with a stupid amount of calories is very healthy to a patient losing muscle and weight involuntarily.
onfire9123 · 1 points · Posted at 21:27:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It definitely correlates, though.
Cat_Proxy · 1 points · Posted at 12:08:26 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I posted a recipe to a thread once asking for "healthy recipes". It's penne noodles, chicken, asparagus, and some parmesan on top. There's chicken broth and garlic powder used in the recipe, and that's pretty much it. You are able to swap some items for vegan options too. And the OP responded "yeah but that's not a healthy recipe". Uhh ok? What's not healthy about it? They never responded, but it still baffles me. Like, what, because it's pasta it's not healthy for you? It's a home cooked meal ffs. I feel like the OP just wanted low-calorie recipes like salads and shit, since that was everything that was upvoted.
poo-boys-united · 1 points · Posted at 13:39:07 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
bunch of fannies
thespeedster11 · 1 points · Posted at 16:01:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Exactly. People always look at calorie dense food as being some kind of poison, but for a guy like me who is slightly underweight it's a godsend. High calorie foods only become unhealthy if you have trouble keeping your overall intake around the amount your body uses (which admittedly the majority of North America does)
satysin · 1 points · Posted at 16:25:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yup. I always remember a documentary I saw about super fat people trying to lose weight. They had one guy who wasn't losing weight yet he had totally changed his diet. He was eating fruits and vegetables and cut out all the processed crap he used to it. The problem? He was eating a shit load of food still. Like 14 apples, 8 bananas, 2 mangos, etc. He was still consuming around 4500 calories a day. The doctor was like "umm you can't expect to lose weight if you still eat that much" to which the guy responded "but fruit is healthy!". SMH.
Goose_Dies · 1 points · Posted at 17:35:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Healthy is a lifestyle choice, not a meal.
reddy_freddy_ · 8 points · Posted at 14:03:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Take it one step further, macros. Like it's quite hard to wrap my mind around the number of people I see in my keto group saying " it says i can eat 120g protein but I weigh 120g chicken and it's like nothing, how will I live like this?!?!".
anonymous_being · 2 points · Posted at 18:31:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Calorie = the amount of energy needed to heat 1 gram of water 1 degree Celsius
darwin2500 · 2 points · Posted at 19:27:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah. So many people think that what is written on the side of a package is all you need to know to control your diet.
Lesp00n · 2 points · Posted at 19:33:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oh I understand calories, I just have terrible willpower.
AdamsDJ · 1 points · Posted at 18:03:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
calories vs Calories
Sanctimonius · 1 points · Posted at 21:21:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Related to this, toxins and healthy and natural. What they mean is entirely subjective to the seller, and misunderstood by the buyer.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:30:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[removed]
Werrf · 862 points · Posted at 14:04:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The correct way to handle a closed lane on a multi-lane road, or a multi-lane road merging into one lane, is to stay in your lane until you reach the merge point, and then take turns merging - called a zipper merge or alternate merge. Merging early effectively reduces the road's carrying capacity and lengthens the tailbacks.
LawnShipper · 794 points · Posted at 14:28:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is not a concept to the American driver. I'm driving, everyone else is annoying traffic. I'm not part of traffic, I'm stuck in it.
WomanOfEld · 175 points · Posted at 16:59:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
New Jersey state motto: me first, fuck you!
197708156EQUJ5 · 3 points · Posted at 17:59:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When talking about New Jersey and driving, DON'T!
NotThatEasily · 3 points · Posted at 19:29:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Fuck Jersey drivers. The absolute worst drivers in the country. See that car driving like an asshole, weaving through traffic, causing others to swerve out of the way and hit their brakes? NJ plates, every fucking time.
smansaxx3 · 4 points · Posted at 20:00:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Illinois drivers (specifically Chicago area) are horrific as well. My god talk about reckless drivers.
green_villain · 1 points · Posted at 19:32:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Everywhere in America (and probably the world)
Sal6826 · -4 points · Posted at 18:47:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
👏😂 So true.
SCPendolino · 19 points · Posted at 15:35:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm afraid this is worldwide.
I wonder if they realize that they're wasting everyone's time, including their own...
Donttakethebait111 · 3 points · Posted at 17:54:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is something I find annoying as all hell, I've driven in America, over 300 million people, cities with over ten million people, ye there will be traffic jams.
Get back to Sweden to my city of less than 100 000 people and still find traffic jams..fucking hell.
We have such narrow roads it's silly. I see a lot of roads being built with only one lane in each direction..like have some foresight
PM_ME_YOR_PANTIES · 58 points · Posted at 14:49:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's not the taking turns that is objectionable, it's that cars in the merge lane zoom by the traffic and merge in further ahead.
[deleted] · 84 points · Posted at 15:00:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But that's permitted and makes traffic move faster for everyone, as opposed to multiple merge points. The only reason to find it objectionable is if you want to slow down traffic for everyone out of spite.
What is objectionable is people in the right lane jumping into the merge lane to jump ahead of others.
Upnorth4 · 18 points · Posted at 16:25:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I was right about to merge onto the highway at 70mph, and when I check my mirrors I notice most people moving to let me merge like normal. Then some old bitch decides to change into the right lane to go faster just because there's less people in it, because they changed to let all the mergers through. I have to slam my breaks to avoid a collision with this idiot
Oli847 · 10 points · Posted at 16:53:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No, the throughput is dictated by the number of lanes available after the merge, where the merge happens doesn't change throughput. The queue to merge would go further back though, as it's starting further back.
505404yyy · 2 points · Posted at 17:28:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But you're increasing the distance of the choke point by having people merge earlier.
Oli847 · 10 points · Posted at 17:34:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes, that's what I said. But the throughput is the same
Krumm · 2 points · Posted at 19:49:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Throughput is dictated by the speed of the input at the bottleneck. As in, how many can I put through here. By reducing breaking at the choke point, you increase the speed attainable through the bottleneck. By artificially moving the choke point back, we increase throughput at the bottleneck, and provide additional time to merge for traffic before the forced merge.
percussaresurgo · 5 points · Posted at 19:51:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Throughput is dictated by the speed of the output at the bottleneck.
Krumm · 2 points · Posted at 20:11:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's measured by what comes out, but the speed it can travel is set by, limited, or dictated by the bottle neck, or the input. The thing at the front.
buckus69 · 1 points · Posted at 20:28:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
By artificially moving the choke point back, you're moving the bottleneck back. You haven't changed anything except wasting space that could be used to hold other cars.
Krumm · 1 points · Posted at 03:55:12 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Partially, I'm saying normalize/ optimize the speed going into the bottleneck. By moving the choke point back, you increase the speed at the forced "jam" spot, letting more traffic through the bottleneck. Once there's stopped traffic at the bottleneck, having a single line into it will raise the speed, if you can "zipper" without anyone hitting the breaks is fine, but that is impossible once traffic stops.
812many · 2 points · Posted at 18:03:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
After the merge people speed up again. If the merge point is a half mile up the road people still get to the destination at the same time.
[deleted] · 4 points · Posted at 18:58:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
15 years ago I was taught th exact opposite. That it greatly increases the risk of accidents because of the difference in velocities of the two lanes
We were also taught that the zipper approach only applied to roads designed to merge. Not temporary closers where the stop and go from people cutting in at last minute slows the entire road down for everyone, as waiting too late to merge forces you and others to stop to let you mergr. While merging earlier when the window naturally exists doesn't slow you or traffic down . How this keeps being repeated I'll never know
yParticle · -1 points · Posted at 19:17:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The speed differential with a long tail is EXACTLY why the zipper merge is so much safer. If you're in the non-merging lane all you have to do to avoid slowdowns for everyone is to leave a single-car gap.
[deleted] · 4 points · Posted at 19:20:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No. The speed differential is from people trying to go down the closed lane as far as possible to merge in. If the right lane has already slowed to 30mph(with gaps between cars so people can merge), and you're driving down the left at 60 you're the one increasing risk for everyone. It's safer to merge into the main lane of traffic then, when the openings are natural and the speed the same.
yParticle · -1 points · Posted at 19:34:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And how did that speed differential happen in the first place? That's right, early mergers. If both lanes drive to the merge point, not only are you not wasting that length of road but everyone's driving the same speed so the merge can happen smoothly and traffic flow is optimized.
[deleted] · 4 points · Posted at 19:37:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No the speed differential can happen for many reasons. The most common is that the lanes on the highway are used for different things.
Your confusing roads designed to merge and temporary closures. They are drastically different situations
Psyladine · 5 points · Posted at 17:08:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Okay but Americans are about fairness: why should I who've been stuck here for 6 minutes be stuck for as many additional car lengths as zoom by me to the end of the lane.
direwolf71 · 8 points · Posted at 18:18:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
One of the reasons you are stuck in traffic for 6 minutes is because people don't properly use the zipper method. Cars have to merge eventually, so it's either take turns smoothly or close gaps until cars have to make a full stop.....which causes a domino for miles back that exacerbates traffic.
I live in Denver, and Colorado has been using signs to help drivers merge properly. https://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/13/us/why-last-second-lane-mergers-are-good-for-traffic.html
Psyladine · 3 points · Posted at 18:48:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsU1L8fhQ7k
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:17:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Because until they merge they aren't on your road. That's like saying why should someone on the service road be passing me. Sometimes the highway is faster than the entrance lane, sometimes it is slower. Once they merge they are in the same boat as you.
Psyladine · -2 points · Posted at 17:40:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
americans just aren't trained to leave their lane and join the merging lane. People who do this deserve to be strung from the lamp posts.
PM_ME_YOR_PANTIES · -22 points · Posted at 15:05:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Even if traffic moves faster, the fact that someone who was behind me is now several cars ahead of me is inherently unfair.
Watchful1 · 19 points · Posted at 15:41:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How is this bad? It's exactly this attitude of unfairness that causes so many accidents. How does someone passing you harm you in the slightest?
OhGarraty · 8 points · Posted at 17:27:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Everyone should be miserable together. It's the American Way.
Sierra_Oscar_Lima · 3 points · Posted at 17:46:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No, That's the British way. They'd organize into neat queues even if they were headed for a meat grinder.
tophermeyer · 18 points · Posted at 15:33:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But that person probably didn't delay your trip at all. So what's the harm?
If anything the problem is with the person that merged early. They created gaps in the right lane that are being filled by later people zooming up. That person is the one that disrupted smooth traffic flow.
[deleted] · 6 points · Posted at 15:57:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
They weren't behind you. Until they merge, they're not on the same road at all, so not ahead or behind. The entrance ramp is basically a separate service road that joins the highway at the merge point. Sometimes highway traffic moves faster, sometimes entering traffic moves faster, and that determines who gets to the merge point sooner.
buckus69 · 4 points · Posted at 16:09:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No one promised that driving is fair. You have just as much right (and capability, I'm assuming) to move over to that lane and be the person you despise.
beepbloopbloop · 5 points · Posted at 15:42:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not really, if you wanted to you could have merged later too and everyone would have gotten there faster.
PM_ME_YOR_PANTIES · 3 points · Posted at 17:32:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm not merging in this situation.
Hi_Im_Saxby · 0 points · Posted at 15:30:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Then drive faster.
PM_ME_YOR_PANTIES · 2 points · Posted at 17:34:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There are other cars in the way.
Hi_Im_Saxby · -1 points · Posted at 17:41:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Go in the lane that's ending then, instead of bitching how "unfair" it is that other drivers driving correctly get ahead of you.
anomalous_cowherd · 7 points · Posted at 17:51:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If people were using the merge lane properly it would be full of cars and they couldn't zoom past.
Safety_Pete · 13 points · Posted at 14:59:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Which wouldn't be an issue if people didn't merge so early. Most merge lanes around here don't have enough room to continue driving on the shoulder so, theoretically, this should be simple.
beepbloopbloop · 13 points · Posted at 15:42:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's what you're supposed to do. If you merge a quarter mile too early you're the one not using space effectively.
THEREALCABEZAGRANDE · 4 points · Posted at 17:17:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's exactly the point. All lanes should be as full as possible up to the point of the obstruction. Merging should not occur until very close proximity to the obstruction. This is faster, it has been proven time and again. Merging early and not using as much of all lanes as possible merely lengthens the choke point, making it worse.
anomalous_cowherd · 0 points · Posted at 17:55:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It definitely is faster and smoother as long as people are fair and merge in turn.
If people are being selfish then every merge takes longer .
Loonycolion · 6 points · Posted at 14:59:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's the idiots who merge early who are the problem. If everyone stuffs over into one lane as soon as possible the one lane will be backed up twice as bad and the lane that is ending will be wide open. Those people zooming by the traffic and merging in further ahead are doing things right.
I have literally seen traffic backed up for kms because the road crews forgot to take down the merge signs, and everyone was trying to merge early. So I stayed in the right lane and sailed by all these dumb suckers in stop and go traffic in the left lane, and the lane wasn't even closed
Najda · 9 points · Posted at 15:33:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Except early merging often means getting into the lane without any disruptions, but merging at the end of the line means creating a gap in near bumper to bumper traffic as it tends to be when people slow down so much. If people actually followed the 2 car gap rule/2 second rule then merging at the end of the line would be a valid tactic, but as is it almost always requires someone letting you in.
yParticle · 3 points · Posted at 19:26:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you want to be part of the solution, simply do this and you'll make traffic better for everyone. Merging becomes a nonissue for both lanes, traffic continues smoothly, and nobody gets mad.
This is what 90% of people don't seem to understand.
Cranky_Kong · -9 points · Posted at 15:26:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I am so fucking tired of people like you spreading this bullshit. Early merging prevents the starts and stops associated with human error and perception to action delay.
I want you to understand that your action that you took when you sailed by those suckers was deliberately causing the starting and stopping that you were seeing. You and literally people like you are the ones that cause that behavior.
Pergatory · 9 points · Posted at 16:28:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You've got some reading to do, please stop spreading misinformation.
https://arstechnica.com/cars/2014/07/the-beauty-of-zipper-merging-or-why-you-should-drive-ruder/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wgSjstvsPc
Cranky_Kong · -2 points · Posted at 16:46:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah I've already looked over all of the stats and several studies and it still bullshit.
There is no circumstance when even a slow-moving double column with a long tail back will be outpaced by the Stop & start merge patterns of a zipper merge, assuming the same number of vehicles in both the throughput to the early mergers will always be faster because there is no hesitation when passing the pinch Point why doesn't anyone fucking get that?
There is a reason why all of these circumstances are shown through simulation instead of real-world traffic footage, because all of the real world traffic footage shows that zipper merges at the choke are absolutely bulshit and are only to be used as an evil necessity with emergency lane closures.
This is why on ramps and merge roads have long run up specifically so that you don't merge at the pinch point.
And I don't see on-ramp traffic stopping and starting like zipper merge traffic which it should because hypothetically they're the exact same function according to your misinformation.
Pergatory · 3 points · Posted at 17:41:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's because zipper merge doesn't result in stop and start like you seem to think. In fact it avoids it. What you see on onramps IS zipper merging. It's exactly what zipper merging is supposed to be. There is 1 merge point on an onramp. You don't see people (reasonable people) jumping across the white lines to merge onto the freeway before the merge point, nor do you see them riding the shoulder after it. That's a zipper merge. There is, and only should be, one merge point. This results in the least stop & start behavior.
The behavior you're arguing for results in infinite merge points, which results in infinite stop & start points where traffic can be obstructed and have to re-adjust. Not to mention it completely wastes 1 lane, thus doubling the length of the backup and creating an opening for people to zoom by the entire backup and merge at the last second. It creates more problems than it solves.
Cranky_Kong · 0 points · Posted at 14:26:10 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Except that it doesn't, in every circumstance that I have encountered it.
I drive 2 to 2.5 hours round trip on my daily commute, and I've been doing this for more than two decades.
Plenty of roadwork, plenty of closures.
In every circumstance that the zipper merge is used on a temporary lane closure, the merge and closing lanes must start and stop because there is not enough throughput for the cars to maintain a rolling speed that allows brake-tap free merging.
Yes, on a road specifically designed for it, with the appropriate acceleration/deceleration lane length to allow drivers to match speed with the highway traffic.
That does not happen EVER in a temporary lane closure resulting in a zipper merge.
Ever.
In-fucking-correct. Not even close.
Early merging creates an infinite amount of merge points yes, and here's the important part so I'm gonna capslock and bold it: THAT CAN ALL MERGE SIMULTANEOUSLY.
And just like the solution to Zeno's 'Achilles and the Tortoise' paradox, the infinite merge points (infinite divisions of distance for the arrow) are resolved by the fact that those points are also crossed with infinite simultaneity (more obvious to the Achilles paradox if there are only two lanes merging into one, though it still applies for any number of lanes).
Parallel merging, if you would.
Merging at the pinch point in zipper merging creates serial merging, where each event is further delayed by human reaction times and vehicle inertia from zero acceleration.
Instead of one hypothetical simultaneous early merge, you get dozens of stop, left, stop, right, stop, left, stop, right as each column slowly feeds cars through the pinch point.
Even in the absence of human psychological issues aside (the main contributor to poor driving and the inability to recognize your own poor driving habits), liquid flow models clearly show that even with a larger pipe (more throughput pinchpoint), turbulent flow greatly reduces the volume of liquids that can pass through the pinch.
Laminar flow (non turbulent flow) in even a significantly smaller pipe will allow more throughput than a pipe even 1/5 or 1/4 larger.
Pergatory · 0 points · Posted at 15:00:45 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's a lot of explanation to say you disagree with every expert and every study done on the subject.
Oh, but you do a lot of driving, so I'm sure that makes you more of an expert than those idiots building the roads.
Cranky_Kong · 0 points · Posted at 15:12:53 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't actually disagree with every expert, there are classes given on traffic statistics that fully support my statements.
What you are confusing for 'experts' are know-less bloggers and misdirected and poorly simulated PSA announcements.
But please don't let me get in the way of you absolutely worshiping at the altar of perceived authority.
Because we all know, it isn't the actual validity of a statement that is important, rather the authority of the person saying it. /s
Loonycolion · 7 points · Posted at 15:32:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How does me staying in my lane cause people in the other lane to start and stop?
Cranky_Kong · -10 points · Posted at 15:45:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You're not staying in your lane you cut to the right and sped past them and now when you got to merge back into the lane the guy behind you has to stop.
Which would not have happened if you had merged early and stayed there, the entire column pulls out just like a red light turn green instead of stopping and starting for every time someone merges in.
Loonycolion · 6 points · Posted at 15:55:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You misunderstood. I was in the right lane. There were signs indicating the right lane ended. Everyone else merged to the left as soon as possible, causing the left lane to essentially grind to a halt. I stayed in the right lane until I could see where the lane closed, except it never closed so I sailed past a traffic jam created by people merging early.
Cranky_Kong · -6 points · Posted at 16:07:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And if you bothered to look at through your rearview mirror when you sail pass you would see at the person behind you I just tapped their brakes causing the entire line to come to a halt again.
The major problem with people like you is that you only determine the effectiveness of a traffic pattern by your own personal performance IE you managed to sail past it what's you're not seeing is that that very Act is what causes those style of jams to begin with.
Merging early might cause slowdowns back in the tailback, poorly enacted zipper merge always cause stops in the start at the choke point.
Also your scenario only happens if there already is a stop at the choke point because designed Lane changes such as turn lanes and onramps do not cause stop-and-start merging, in fact they're designed not to.
In every circumstance where actual overhead footage of temporary zipper merges are featured, it is obvious that the delays are caused by the type of people that rushdown the now-empty right lane and jam themselves into already moving traffic, usually By ignoring the zipper pattern and cutting a head one spot.
The really interesting thing is that they've only saved themselves maybe two to five seconds of time on their commute by jumping in that front space but the domino effect of rate tapping going down the merge lane will cause the person in back to lose maybe three or four minutes.
So you saved yourself five seconds and cost everybody else in that column by an average two-minute delay.
Congratulations you are that guy that everyone tells people not to be like.
Loonycolion · 9 points · Posted at 16:09:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You sir, are an idiot
Cranky_Kong · 0 points · Posted at 16:12:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I've spent around two hours a day commuting for the last 30 years, watching traffic change and shift.
Never once been in an accident and all that time.
Something you might want to think about...
Loonycolion · 4 points · Posted at 16:17:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Class 1 commercial driver here
Cranky_Kong · 2 points · Posted at 16:25:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Which means you're a commercial driver either in New Zealand or Hong Kong or full of ultra pure bullshit.
I'm going to go for the last one.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 17:55:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
LawnShipper · 1 points · Posted at 17:56:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
BMW or Chevy?
growlingbear · 2 points · Posted at 19:40:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yup. Also if the closed lane people wait until the last minute to merge in America, they are seen as trying to worm their way in. People will deliberately stay on the bumper of the car in front to keep them from getting in.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 20:08:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I've lived in four different cities in the US and most drivers tend to be perfectly respectful and are mindful of those around them. Like if I put on my blinker, they'll make space and let me over more often than speeding up to get in front. Zipper merging also usually goes smoothly (except the few who merge early). It's not like if I'm in the lane that's ending it's a fight to get over.
Of course none of those cities are NY or LA, which have the reputation of being the worst.
LawnShipper · 1 points · Posted at 20:09:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Come to Miami. You ain't seen shit.
josephanthony · 1 points · Posted at 18:20:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think that the concept 'Driving/Traffic is a Team Sport!' should be hammered into every person learning to drive. But then, in a decade the cars will auto-drive anyway, so it's kinda late.
MostlyAngry · 1 points · Posted at 18:26:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is not a common concept. Most drivers aren't paying attention to driving enough to make common sense moves.
Like staying right except to pass, the bane of my existence.
LookMaNoPride · 1 points · Posted at 19:37:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
After a road trip to Dallas, I told everyone that driving there is like being the last obstacle to every other person's happiness.
datchilla · 1 points · Posted at 21:08:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Most redditors don't know merging early causes traffic and praise themselves for it.
BearEatsKayak · 14 points · Posted at 16:26:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In Colorado, I've recently seen signs during construction that say "use both lanes until merge point" I don't know if I've noticed a significant improvement yet, but I hope people catch on.
I_like_your_reddit · 9 points · Posted at 15:55:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But if you do this, for fuck's sake please know how to actually merge when you get to the front of the line.
Werrf · 7 points · Posted at 15:58:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Definitely. Don't brake to a stop, match your speed to the speed of the lane you're merging into, etc.
thomasbomb45 · 6 points · Posted at 17:55:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Gotcha!
urhereimnot · 7 points · Posted at 18:37:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
After reading the wikipedia article and the linked MN DOT report I was about to to reply and add to it, but then I realized that what you said is factually correct, but commonly misunderstood.
What most people think is that zipper merge will help them go faster through a traffic choke point, which is incorrect. The main benefits outlined are
I recommend people check out wiki and the linked report
Cranky_Kong · 87 points · Posted at 15:23:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is actually incorrect for temporary lane closures. The studies that you are referring to about the zipper merge have all been done on roads that were designed beforehand too narrow not multi-lane roads narrowed down unexpectedly and temporarily.
Momentum lost from aggregate starting and stopping causes delays greater than one third extra traffic distributed across through lanes and extending the tailback.
It's kind of funny that this misunderstanding keeps getting presents as fact when it has long been debunked with both psychology and physics.
Werrf · 30 points · Posted at 15:32:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Source, please? Because the sources I'm seeing generally say that merging sooner is fine when traffic is light, but when traffic is heavy it's best to zipper merge.
http://www.modot.org/workzones/ZipperMerge.htm
Pyronic_Chaos · 4 points · Posted at 17:49:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Also: http://www.dot.state.mn.us/zippermerge/
Don't worry about being "Minnesota nice." When traffic is heavy and slow, it is much safer for motorists to remain in their current lane until the point where traffic can orderly take turns merging.
geak78 · 1 points · Posted at 20:09:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think that's the problem. There are other extenuating circumstances. When traffic is bumper to bumper it doesn't really matter. When it's quite light it doesn't really matter. The other times everyone should just be concerned with making the least amount of people use their brakes.
TheCastro · 1 points · Posted at 18:05:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Around here the only reason traffic gets heavy is because assholes merge too late forcing the non-merging lane people to have to slam the brakes as the asshole trying to cut the line squeezes in. If you follow the techniques on this video you can leave space so people don't think they need to race to the end. Fucking dummies have to be tricked into driving correctly by making them think there is plenty of space to merge.
Werrf · 4 points · Posted at 18:22:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The non-merging lane people can see the people in the lane next to them; they're responsible for leaving space for people who have no choice but to merge. If you're slamming on the brakes to let the 'arsehole' trying to 'cut the line' squeeze in, you're the one who's doing it wrong; you're the arsehole in this picture.
TheCastro · 4 points · Posted at 18:32:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I feel like this is written by someone with minimal driving experience.
Werrf · 0 points · Posted at 18:35:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Twenty one years, motorbike and car, all over the UK and US.
TheCastro · 2 points · Posted at 19:25:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So you're the one zooming up trying to cut over.
RandomStoryBadEnding · 0 points · Posted at 19:48:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You know, there are traffic laws and insurance fault determination rules, and in both cases you're the arsehole if you think you have some predetermined right to cut whenever you please.
Go look them up; the person merging does NOT have the right of way.
In the event of an accident, you are 100% at fault if you are trying to merge into another lane.
Werrf · 3 points · Posted at 19:59:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Allow me to be clear:
If you deliberately block a person who is unable to continue in their lane, you are obstructing traffic. This is illegal. I'm not talking about the other person having right of way to merge any old way they please. Yes, of course the person who is merging needs to match the speed of the lane they're merging into; but, by the same token, the person in the lane to be entered should be leaving at least a car-length gap between them and the next vehicle ANYWAY, should they not?
RandomStoryBadEnding · 3 points · Posted at 20:06:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Now you're literally making up interpretations of traffic rules.
The length gap between 2 cars completely depend on the speed at which the cars are travelling. A car length gap would NOT be even nearly sufficient if you were travelling at freeway speeds, but would not be necessary if everyone is stuck in a stop-and-go, 5 mph traffic jam situation. Also the gap is for SAFE STOPPING DISTANCE, when you CUT into that gap, you've just completely killed the safe stopping distance for both the car behind you and yourself, thereby creating a even more dangerous situation.
Also, the person merging should not be "matching the speed of the lane they're merging into", you should actually be moving slightly faster than the lane you're merging into. But once again, merging should only be done WHEN IT IS SAFE TO DO SO. You do NOT have right of way, you MUST wait until it is clear to do so.
So many drivers on the road have zero idea what right of way means. When you don't have right of way, you wait. If you don't and something happens, you are 100% at fault. When you don't have right of way, the other drivers are not "obstructing traffic" just because they don't yield to you.
Werrf · 2 points · Posted at 20:12:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ah, so you don't think merging should ever be allowed? Because that's literally what you're saying.
Please note, I did not say that other drives have to yield to you.
RandomStoryBadEnding · 1 points · Posted at 20:34:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Who said that? Please quote where I "literally" said that. (You should literally look up the definition of literally)
You should merge when it is SAFE TO DO SO. There are plenty of situations where it is safe to merge, such as when traffic is a lot more sparse, or where there's a lot of gap between 2 cars. Also, believe it or not, people are much more inclined to allow you to merge when you're not perceived as someone trying to cut a huge line of cars.
buckus69 · 11 points · Posted at 16:16:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Then why would traffic crews start using signs that specifically instruct drivers to merge at the merge point, not before? I think there's more research going on in that case than just "I looked it up on the Internet."
TheCastro · 9 points · Posted at 18:06:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I see signs all the time that say lane ends ahead, get over. Well before the "merge point" you speak of.
buckus69 · 2 points · Posted at 20:39:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Do these signs indicate WHERE to get over? Usually they don't, they just warn you that the lane is ending.
Jfreak7 · 9 points · Posted at 18:02:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Every sign that I see about merging, says to "merge now" about 1/2 mile before the actual merge. Most of them have a sign, merge now or ticket.
Here is the state law. It's illegal to merge late. https://www.okhouse.gov/OldWebSite/news6805.html
buckus69 · 3 points · Posted at 20:02:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's the law in your state. In other states they put out signs that implore drivers to go all the way to the merge point (at least during construction). They usually say something like "Use all lanes until merge point."
ApertureMusic · 1 points · Posted at 21:06:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I was just typing up a comment about Oklahoma. Maybe it's more efficient to zipper, but just follow the signs and get over.
[deleted] · 5 points · Posted at 19:04:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I too am confused how this keeps being repeated as fact. In my traffic analysis class it was made clear to use that it's dangerous to have the two lanes moving at vastly different speeds, and that the zipper approach only works when the road is designed for it. Otherwise waiting till last minute greatly increases risk of accident and leads to traffic slowly in stop and go situations to let those people mergr
Cranky_Kong · 1 points · Posted at 13:44:28 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I have a feeling this lie keeps being perpetrated to give a pass to the poor driving behaviors of advantage seeking drivers.
like the asshole that hard accelerates up a turn lane to jump in front of a column of traffic just as the light turns green.
The thing is, a lot of people who make our laws are exactly that type of Beamer asshole that constantly puts other traffic at risk for their own position advantage (yes I know not all of these kinds of people drive BMWs, though it sure seems like a lot of them do).
So they actively pass ordinances and laws to support their poor driving behavior, and then it gets parroted by the traffic enforcement departments in crappily 90's era style PSA vids.
You have no idea how crazy interesting that sounds to me, do you have any links to more scholarly articles that are actually academically valid instead of the stack of entertainment blog posts that others have provided so far?
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 15:18:32 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I do not have any links to papers off the top of my head(and I havnt seen any actual papers posted from anyone as you also said). I took this class 15 years ago for engineering. I'm a math student now and we've been studying traffic in a different manner using graph theory and neural networks to map most efficient routes.
It is pretty neat shit.
Cranky_Kong · 1 points · Posted at 15:28:37 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I know right!?
It's like a living organism with its own biology and recognizable processes. And it is made from the aggregate choices of everyone on the road.
An incredibly complex system that is easily understandable in conceptual rules, yet has such a wide variation from modeled flow studies that they are really only accurate in the large scope.
It is the product of standards established before the internal combustion engine was even a dream, and nearly every human in the developed world participates in it in one way or another.
In the abstract, I love thinking on it.
In the concrete, I fucking hate having to use it.
TBH Neural Networks are really the only effective way to model it as again it is made by aggregate choices, though we still can't accurately model driver behavior on an individual level (or maybe we can? Its been a while since I messed with neural networks, and that was mainly in artificial life simulations of roaches).
I'm very grateful that you are both so passionate on this subject and were willing to support my point.
Every other post in this thread boils down to 'Nuh uh, you're the stupidest'.
We trafficheads (is that what we're called?) should stick together.
dasiffy · 2 points · Posted at 18:23:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's also counter intuitive, based on highway on ramp merging procedures.
Waiting till the end makes it do or die.
Cranky_Kong · 1 points · Posted at 13:55:29 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Exactly!
FeelPositive · 2 points · Posted at 20:26:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You used some fancy terminology, but I think you could explain to me in better terms-why would a two lane that merges into a one lane road have faster traffic than just the one lane road with twice the cars? If they're all going same speed and same distance from each other, shouldn't the average wait time be the same? This is a problem I can't wrap my head around.
Cranky_Kong · 2 points · Posted at 13:35:50 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Fancy terminology? What?
The only phrases that aren't common parlance are 'zipper merge' and 'tailback', and they are both descriptive enough that further explication shouldn't be necessary...
Though I will do so anyway.
First please take a look that this 5 min CGPGrey clip for a good overview of the concepts below.
The main thrust of this video is that stopping for whatever reason in traffic, even briefly causes a much more significant backup than most people ever realize.
The most efficient road possible demonstrates laminar flow (smooth flowing like liquid in a pipe that has no turbulence), where every car travels at a close speed to the vehicle in front of them, with enough gaps that other cars can merge without causing the car behind them to tap their brakes.
As the video above shows, even a brief brake tapping in a backed up road can cause a 'phantom traffic jam' that can sometimes last hours.
In a restricted lane situation, just like restricting a hose, laminar flow is thrown out the window as close driving distances and frequent lane changes causes everyone to stop and start.
Not just in the merge lane, as you will have advantage seekers in the middle lane also unneededly merge left to avoid the clusterfuck in their lane ahead, just to cause a clusterfuck in the new lane they move into by causing the person behind them to brake tap.
So, even in an ideal 3 to 2 lane zipper merge, the obstructed lane will be at a stop, as well as the lane the obstructed lane merges into, as each car passes the right to start back and forth.
This means for every car that merges there is a delay in both lanes, as the car pulls out, and as the car causes the middle lane driver behind them to brake.
Back and forth, each car in that merge lane will take much, much longer (5 to 6 times longer considering human perception speed, a quick start, and the cooperation of the cars around. If the driver is slower on reaction time, or if some cars are advantage seeking, it may take 7 to 8 times the amount of seconds to pass the choke point.
So in a very good zipper merge, it still takes 4-5 times the amount of time for one car to pass the pinch as it does with laminar flow.
Lets say at normal travel speed, slightly congested traffic, it takes 2 seconds for a car to pass the pinch point (that's even being conservative, it shouldn't take more than a second but I am doing this to prove a point)
Lets say there are 30 cars in a 3 lane road that temporarily narrows down to two.
With laminar flow, assuming the traffic is already at driving speed, having merged all 30 cars into two lanes (15 cars per lane).
That means it'll be 30 seconds from the first car passing the pinch to the last car passing, provided that no one brake taps or advantage merges, which would be unnecessary as everyone is already traveling at cruising speed.
Now what happens when you spread those same 30 cars to 3 lanes with a zipper merge?
Hypothetically the non-merge far lane should be able to maintain its laminar flow but this is never, ever the case in the real world due to the advantage mergers mentioned above, so we have to apply the start-stop math to all lanes, though the least to the 3rd.
Now lets say it takes 5 seconds for each car to pass the pinch (which is quite generous as real life experience means passing a pinch point is usually at idle speed), that means it'll take a minimum of 50 seconds for all the cars to pass the pinch.
The only problem with that is most street lights don't have that long of a phase, and in the second, turbulent flow zipper merge, you may actually have cars in the back that are 'cut off' in the middle of the intersection by a light change.
Negating the benefit of 'shortening the tailback' that every proponent of zipper merging erroneously claims as the best traffic benefit.
The absolutely best benefit to traffic flow is an absolute absence of stops and brake taps.
Early merging provides this, zipper merge does the exact opposite, creating artificial start/stop patterns and encouraging advantage merging.
Which is why zipper merging is absolute bullshit and proves that everyone who supports it is completely shit at math and has had insufficient real world driving experience.
Sure, the zipper merge works great on paper and simulation, because none of these take into account human stupidity, namely advantage mergers in this scenario.
And those assholes are literally the most dangerous people on the road, even moreso than drunk or texting drivers.
FeelPositive · 1 points · Posted at 13:26:10 on August 18, 2017 · (Permalink)
Thanks for the detailed explanation! Just to make sure, was I mostly right in believing that merging later isn't in any way more efficient for the flow of cars than merging earlier-essentially that if the same road was always a 2-way cars would go the same speed or even faster than if it was a 3->2 merge?
Cranky_Kong · 2 points · Posted at 13:29:41 on August 18, 2017 · (Permalink)
Early merge is faster in nearly every circumstance.
The only situations where this is not the case is when both lanes have long trailers matching speeds, and when more than 2 lanes merge into a single lane.
In nearly every standard temporary zipper merge, early merging is significantly faster in vehicle throughput.
BamboozleVictim · 18 points · Posted at 15:20:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It seems this is mostly an American problem, from what I've read people get angry when you drive down the empty road as it looks like you're trying to push in? Never had the issue in the UK when driving, we aren't taught it in our driving tests but it's something everyone automatically picks up
Werrf · 53 points · Posted at 15:23:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yup, it's a largely American thing. There's a tendency in the US to treat driving like a competitive sport.
Lothar_Ecklord · 0 points · Posted at 17:43:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Same reason everyone speeds up by 5-10mph in a passing lane, and then slow back down once it is ended. It's like they take it as a sign of weakness.
thomasbomb45 · 11 points · Posted at 17:51:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No, it's because you feel bad if it takes you 5 minutes to pass someone whole going 71 mph, while there's a line forming behind you.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 19:03:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[removed]
thomasbomb45 · 1 points · Posted at 20:22:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oh yeah, that's real annoying. Although no sympathy for people who speed up while getting passed. I know it's not always caused by anger, it might remind you that you're going slower than you meant to. But if I caught up to you, I'm going faster so at least let me pass first!
RandomStoryBadEnding · 1 points · Posted at 19:52:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Do people even learn how to drive before taking their driving tests? You're SUPPOSED to speed up before changing into another lane, then go back to regular driving speed once you've successfully completed the lane change.
Not doing so is dangerous; slowing down before a lane change is doubly so.
88slides · 1 points · Posted at 18:55:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's because of you enter the passing lane and are not traveling at the speed of the traffic in that lane, you are holding up everyone else. People who occupy the left lane when they are going 71 in a 70 hold up all of the other people who were following normal traffic patterns.
Big_D_Squirrels · 0 points · Posted at 17:51:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's cuz my car is more betterer cuz it's mine
84th_legislature · 16 points · Posted at 16:07:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The problem with people driving down the empty road is that they are driving much, much faster than the people in the continuing lane, so when it gets to the merge point that fast-driving person just bombs in and almost causes a car accident, which leads to more brake lights and a further slowdown in the continuing lane.
If both lanes were slowed down and taking turns, it would be very different because people could kinda just time it to roll through the merge without stopping, but one fast-lane causing complete stops by irregularly forcing itself into a slow lane just makes everything worse.
[deleted] · 19 points · Posted at 16:42:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
bluejayway327 · 7 points · Posted at 17:44:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Came here to say this, too. This comes up in every thread like this, but it's not that we don't know what zipper merging is. It's that it only works when everyone does it, and that never fucking happens.
[deleted] · 7 points · Posted at 17:51:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No that's bullshit. Not zipper merging because other idiots are being idiots is pointless. Refusing to zipper merge inflates traffic and reduces road carrying capacity, full stop.
[deleted] · -4 points · Posted at 17:53:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
sexdrugsjokes · 0 points · Posted at 18:41:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah especially because since you are being a dick trying to cut in line then everyone will treat you like a dick but acting like one themselves and not giving you any space to merge.
Jucoy · 3 points · Posted at 20:40:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No. There's doing it right and there's doing it wrong. If using the lane as intended results in me getting to my destination faster, I'm going to use the lane as intended, rather than sit in a lone bitching about other people using the lane the way It's supposed to be used.
jesus67 · 1 points · Posted at 19:55:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I prefer it to everybody waiting in one giant polite line.
MyLiverpoolAlt · 9 points · Posted at 15:59:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's still an issue with the older generations in the UK. They see it as you jumping the queue. I've experienced OAP's getting very irate with me for using the road as intended in the past and because I'm young, I'm wrong.
I remember a Rob Brydon bit about hating "late Mergers" and his younger panel guests picked him apart about it being like a Zipper.
sunkzero · 3 points · Posted at 16:16:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Where do you drive? Everywhere I drive in London and Kent is full arseholes desperately protecting their precious six foot of tarmac and creating traffic problems.
thomasbomb45 · 2 points · Posted at 17:53:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The problem is it's an empty lane, because everyone else thinks the same way. They don't want to be the asshole that passes everyone, so they get out of the closed lane and make it even more empty.
Peachesx · -3 points · Posted at 16:38:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeh some arsehole trying to push in at the last minute because they think they shouldnt have to wait like everyone else
BowtieCustomerRep · 6 points · Posted at 16:30:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ugh, there is a perfect spot for this zipper merge on a very busy loop on 2 interstate highways here, and they literally widened the road to make an extra long merging lane for traffic coming on to the highway, and yet everyday I see people coming off the ramp and getting directly into traffic, causing huge delays and traffic, every single day!
It really grind my gears to see this beautiful merge lane sit empty and then see all the cars battling for a tiny little 12 foot merge space.
Dschaefs · 3 points · Posted at 16:56:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I am from Minnesota and I thought we were bad at the zipper merge. Then i went on a road trip and somewhere in the middle of Kentucky there was construction with the right lane closed. There was about 2 miles of unused lane that people could have used, but didn't.
twerps · 3 points · Posted at 17:39:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Zipper vs. early merging is a fair debate.
What super does not work though is when people floor it through the closing lane and then brake to a stop at the end when trying to pass everybody.
I think a of discussions fail to mention that problem.
Jilly_Bean16 · 3 points · Posted at 18:51:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
90% of people also don't know the difference between yield and merge.
Baby_Dinosaur_Yoshi · 16 points · Posted at 14:49:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's fine until 6 cars drive up to the end and all force themselves in ahead of you.
Werrf · 12 points · Posted at 14:49:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Missing the 'alternate' part?
Baby_Dinosaur_Yoshi · 8 points · Posted at 14:53:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well I'm happy to go 1-1-1-1-1-1-1. So I let one guy merge and BAM! I'm getting honked at and sworn at but the next 5 cars because I try to go in front of them!
Hi_Im_Saxby · 11 points · Posted at 15:31:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Hence why this thread exists. Those people honking at you don't know how to properly zipper merge, even though it's the most efficient.
[deleted] · -2 points · Posted at 19:05:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's not though. I've studied traffic engineering. It's dangerous and not at all recommended.
[deleted] · -3 points · Posted at 19:05:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's not though. I've studied traffic engineering. It's dangerous and not at all recommended.
up_voted · 3 points · Posted at 19:28:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Saying you've studied something is not a source.
Linking to an actual study or an article where you learned this from during your traffic engineering study is a viable source.
Without peer review or evidence, stating yourself as a source makes your claim no different than just an opinion.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 19:29:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And yet no one here has posted a study or source the other way either...
Hi_Im_Saxby · 2 points · Posted at 19:51:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Provide a source, then. If you google "Is zipper merging correct", you'll find dozens of articles stating that zipper merging is the correct way to drive. Those are all of my sources.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 19:53:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Those are not primary sources. Post a primary source or shh
Hi_Im_Saxby · 2 points · Posted at 19:58:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
http://transportation.ky.gov/zippermerge/Pages/default.aspx
http://www.dot.state.mn.us/zippermerge/
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/13/us/why-last-second-lane-mergers-are-good-for-traffic.html
https://arstechnica.com/cars/2014/07/the-beauty-of-zipper-merging-or-why-you-should-drive-ruder/
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/zipper-merge-helps-traffic-flow-engineers-say-kansas/
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/traffic-lane-zipper-merge.htm
http://trafficwaves.org/seatraf.html
http://windsorstar.com/news/local-news/why-arent-you-zipper-merging-city-of-windsor-urges-correct-driving-on-e-c-row-expressway
Read up, clown.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 20:00:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not a single one is a primary source. Try again. Show me a research paper. Not secondary sources.
Hi_Im_Saxby · 2 points · Posted at 20:27:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Bullshit, asshole. There's more than half a dozen articles right fucking there saying it's better. Meanwhile all your headass self has said is "I studied this, so I'm right". Get fucking lost.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 20:30:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
An article is not a fucking research paper or study. Period. That's why we don't link cnn articles when discussing global warming, we link the actual research papers.
Provide a real source or just stfu
Hi_Im_Saxby · 3 points · Posted at 20:32:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm discussing fucking traffic, not global warming. I'm not going to waste time with some fucking clown who's head is so far up his own ass that he refuses to believe that zipper merging is the correct way to drive and is safer, even though it is.
Holy god the irony is fucking hilarious.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 20:41:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I've been where you are with this guy. There's no hope.
Hi_Im_Saxby · 2 points · Posted at 20:47:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I tried to play ball with him. Oh well.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:45:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Global warming is science , so is traffic control. It's almost like you're just plain stupid. Ciao
Hi_Im_Saxby · 1 points · Posted at 20:46:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Then cite one article. Just one. Doesn't even have to be a research paper or thesis. Literally an article that you could've pulled from the back of a cereal box. Show me any single written piece of information that says zipper merging is bad and dangerous. Go on, I'll wait.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:48:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
http://jalopnik.com/stop-trying-to-make-the-zipper-merge-happen-1785205684
Wow that was hard
Hi_Im_Saxby · 2 points · Posted at 21:11:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Wow you didn't even fucking read the article. You could at least make it a little challenging for me to not prove you're entirely full of shit. That article, not once, says zipper merging is bad because it's dangerous. It says, essentially, that humans are too fucking stupid and selfish to realize it does in fact work, so now everybody that tries to merge is automatically an asshole.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 21:16:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You struggle pretty hard with reading comprehension
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 16:01:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Baby_Dinosaur_Yoshi · 3 points · Posted at 16:03:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Lol, I'm not American, so that doesn't work!
SpacemanSpiff23 · 4 points · Posted at 17:30:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It would work so much better. You'd be the only one with a gun.
boogersrus · 2 points · Posted at 18:30:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
They need to update merge signs to say alternate merge when applicable. I think more people get it then.
zdiggler · 2 points · Posted at 18:34:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Road crew put.. Right Lane closed 2 miles. Everyone get on the left as soon as they see the sign.. now we have 1+mile long traffic with other lane completely empty!
And I'm asshole for using the empty lane!!
motsanciens · 2 points · Posted at 18:40:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
While I completely agree with you, there's a bit of game theory involved, here. If you attempt to buck the trend and execute a zipper merge, you risk being treated like an asshole and boxed out by people who were passed up by other later mergers, who may or may not have been enlightened zipper mergers; they could have been actual assholes.
1SensFan · 3 points · Posted at 15:49:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I would say this only applies in bumper to bumper rush hour traffic.
If you wait until the end of the merge lane and there isn't an opening at that very moment then you have to slow down/stop until you can get in. Then you either have to wait until there's no cars or pull out in front of someone causing them and others to have to slow down.
KakariBlue · 1 points · Posted at 03:03:37 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
It works anytime the lanes are moving similar speeds, and also requires awareness from drivers in both laws when a merge will be necessary. This may be a bridge too far for many.
buckus69 · 3 points · Posted at 16:14:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Drivers seem to have this idea that if everyone merged before the merge point, traffic wouldn't slow down and we'd all drive along happily.
This actually does work. I've seen it work. When I'm on the Interstate between cities and traffic is sparse...but even then, merging at the last possible point still doesn't really slow anyone down in that situation because there's usually no one to slow down. So merging early is a matter of convenience, not of keeping traffic flowing.
It's when traffic is heavy that people tend to have a problem with merging at the merge point, despite the fact that, due to the volume of traffic, it doesn't matter where you merge - early, late - there will still be a delay, because you're trying to take the traffic that normally fits in two or three lanes and removing one or more of those lanes. Like a funnel, if you fill it too fast, it will overflow.
Dolgare · 4 points · Posted at 18:39:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think it's less that traffic wouldn't slow down, as it reduces risk. If I wait to the last second to merge, there's a decent chance people will band together to block me from merging, requiring I slam on the brakes and greatly raising the possibility of a wreck.
I fully get why the zipper method can work, but I'm not going to put extra risk on my car and my life just to hope everyone around me also understands that. I'm going to get into the lane that isn't ending when I can so at least I'm there, even if it is going to extend my drive by a couple minutes.
buckus69 · 2 points · Posted at 20:26:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
All you're doing by merging earlier is pushing the merge point back further and further.
Dolgare · 0 points · Posted at 21:22:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes, which is completely worth it in my opinion because it reduces the risk to myself and my vehicle. Which was my entire point.
executive313 · 3 points · Posted at 16:38:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Here is the thing no one in America can merge. Ever. People simply cant do it. Drive anywhere in California and 90% of the traffic you come across is caused by a merge.
Alateriel · 3 points · Posted at 17:08:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This requires other drivers to not be assholes and accelerate so they can be "in front" of you.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 14:22:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Werrf · 3 points · Posted at 14:24:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No, you can just get corrective surgery on your micropenis like everyone else.
DrSillyBitchez · 2 points · Posted at 19:02:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
only if its a dualy
JustAGamerA · 2 points · Posted at 17:19:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Literally yesterday a woman screamed at me when i tried to do this
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:36:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Werrf · 1 points · Posted at 18:40:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The merge doesn't have to start at the terminus point, it should end at the terminus point. Exactly where you start will depend on how fast traffic is moving, but your goal should be to use the whole road until you are one lane-merge distance from the close point (make it a little further for some safety margin).
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:45:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Werrf · 2 points · Posted at 18:50:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Pretty much, yes.
KakariBlue · 1 points · Posted at 02:59:53 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
The comment up a bit covers this pretty well. It might be a bit slower to zipper merge, but the effects of the closure stay localized to the closure. Not using the road carrying capacity fully translates to longer entry lines which could create traffic further away from the merge point (the next intersection, on ramp, exit, etc).
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:16:07 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
KakariBlue · 1 points · Posted at 20:26:57 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's sounds very similar to what /u/Werrf was saying: essentially a zipper merge is better and you should execute it safely for the speed and conditions. You advocate a slightly larger safety margin but then still a safe merge at speed (which is a zipper merge wherever it occurs). Too much safety margin creates traffic away from the merge which is not desirable and too little creates dangerous differences in speeds between lanes.
The zipper merge zone should vary with overall speed from right at the very end (close point) in stop & go traffic to quite a bit back in faster traffic up to the point that the entire concept is moot because there isn't enough traffic to matter when the merge occurs.
tom808 · 3 points · Posted at 17:43:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This. This! This!
I have to drive down a section of road which merges after a busy junction everyday. People always merge in as soon as they can which causes an overflow and blocks the junction.
Meanwhile nobody let's me in because I move past the traffic to merge at the last point and they think I'm being a dick.
popgoboom · 1 points · Posted at 17:39:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
https://youtu.be/8wgSjstvsPc
A video explaining it because I was initially confused
MintyNinja41 · 1 points · Posted at 17:44:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
New Jersey driver here. That sounds like a great way to navigate a merging situation, but afaik we never learned it in driver's ed. So at least part of the problem is that new drivers aren't being taught that this exists.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:49:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I try to do this, but half the time it's downright dangerous as people WILL NOT let you merge for any reason.
CaveExploder · 1 points · Posted at 19:23:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Hey, another traffic human. Traffic is one of those things that is full of the "90% don't really understand." Things like: more Lanes often worsening traffic, or that left only passing generally improves throughput, or that it's the differences in velocity that compound to massive traffic backups not the overall velocity of the traffic flow.
KakariBlue · 1 points · Posted at 03:11:30 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Any source on the left only passing thing? With 2-3 lanes it makes intuitive sense, but as you get up to 4+ lanes it becomes impossible or at least inconvenient to have to move over several lanes to pass, each lane change having its own risk.
BrohanGutenburg · 1 points · Posted at 19:29:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But what if this doesn't work in the real world?
Fenral · 1 points · Posted at 20:00:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I accept that this is the technically correct way to merge. I also accept that in reality, in the overwhelming majority of North America, this will not work.
Given the reality of the situation, you should not be zooming up to a point where you know, or ought to know, that there isn't going to be space to merge. You should be merging at the closest spot to the bottleneck where there is space to merge.
Werrf · 2 points · Posted at 20:02:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Um...that would be why it's a response to "What is something that 90% of people don't seem to understand?"
PantheraAtrox · 1 points · Posted at 20:02:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is fantastic advice. But nobody knows it so doing this just gets people fucking angry at you.... which is why I do it always.
DrAudiologist · 1 points · Posted at 20:15:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So then the backup length is shorter, but it takes just as long to fit everyone through the same bottleneck?
Werrf · 2 points · Posted at 20:20:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Most of the disruption is in the backup - by lengthening it, and having everyone decide for themselves when and how they're going to merge, you end up with much more disruption than you'd have if everyone followed the same rules, and waited for the merge point before changing lanes.
radome9 · 1 points · Posted at 21:00:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Wrong. The carrying capacity is determined by the choke point.
Werrf · 1 points · Posted at 21:13:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And early merging moves that choke point further back, artificially reducing the number of cars that can fit into a given stretch of road.
radome9 · 1 points · Posted at 21:18:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's not fitting that's the problem, it's passing. The number of cars that can pass through the chokepoint is not affected by how the cars are arranged before the chokepoint.
Werrf · 1 points · Posted at 21:23:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You're not listening - early merging moves the chokepoint. It moves the chokepoint further back, reducing the amount of road available.
radome9 · 1 points · Posted at 21:27:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Late merging gives you two lanes instead of one, but they move at half the speed. The number of cars that pass a given point per time unit is unaffected.
You're confusing the chokepoint and the merge point. They are different things.
Werrf · 1 points · Posted at 21:58:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The choke point is the point where you go from two lanes to one lane. Early merging means that point is earlier. it's pretty simple.
radome9 · 1 points · Posted at 22:00:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Simple, but wrong. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
Werrf · 1 points · Posted at 22:21:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you enjoy being wrong...I guess that's your choice.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ivme-_PE1d8
radome9 · 1 points · Posted at 07:15:48 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
The video is not even wrong.
BankshotMcG · 1 points · Posted at 21:20:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Corollary: rubbernecking the accident is why it took you so long to get past the accident.
introspeck · 1 points · Posted at 22:11:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Even with onramps on a jammed interstate highway. I used to drive I-287 in NJ. It often slowed to a crawl at "rush" hour. I used to get off at a busy exit - lots of people exiting, lots of people entering. Everyone was so fixated on not letting people in, that the right lane would come to a complete standstill as whole blocks of entering cars and semi-trucks had to force their way in. A simple zipper merge would have kept everyone moving and happy. (well, I don't know about happy.)
Dakar-A · 1 points · Posted at 00:34:32 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Shh! You don't want them to know the secret! The one weird tip to easily get you through merging-created traffic jams!
calembo · 1 points · Posted at 02:15:41 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Came here to say this, thanks for beating me to it!
Blunderfool · -1 points · Posted at 16:34:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is often impossible in many parts of America. You see, we have these assholes, usually in a pickup truck, who thinks it's their job to police the road and make sure no one "skips the line"
Wherever they are in the closing lane, that's the beginning of the line. They will slow down or even stop so that no one can get ahead of them, essentially blocking the lane early so everyone else has no choice but to get over.
These morons are in every traffic jam and don't realize that they're making the problem worse.
_its_a_SWEATER_ · 1 points · Posted at 17:21:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes but I want to be in the front of that zipper EVERY time.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:48:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Werrf · 4 points · Posted at 18:51:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes, I know. Which is why this is my response to "What is something that 90% of people don't seem to understand?"
ThinkToLaugh · 204 points · Posted at 15:27:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I would estimate that 99% of people have no real concept of just how big and empty the universe is.
undercooked_lasagna · 132 points · Posted at 16:51:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
As its center, I understand perfectly.
carlos_fredric_gauss · 7 points · Posted at 18:49:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
you are the center of its expansion.
webmistress105 · 9 points · Posted at 17:52:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not sure if you're joking, but you are at the center of your visible universe.
AdamsDJ · 9 points · Posted at 18:01:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
and, at any given instant, there is a non-zero probability that I am, in fact, the dead center of the physical universe for just one instant.
_Mephostopheles_ · 3 points · Posted at 19:18:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How can the universe have a center if it's potentially infinite? Would that make everywhere the center?
AdamsDJ · 3 points · Posted at 19:56:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
We don't actually know if it's infinite, do we? Something about convexity and concavity of space...
_Mephostopheles_ · 2 points · Posted at 19:57:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's why I said "potentially infinite."
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:19:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 01:44:45 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
CNSninja · 2 points · Posted at 19:51:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If we're going by what's visible, an observer would be eternally at the edge of their own visible universe, but if all sensory input is included then they'd be the center of their own sensory universe.
webmistress105 · 2 points · Posted at 20:21:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I guess "observable" would have been a better word choice.
webmistress105 · 1 points · Posted at 20:21:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I guess "observable" would have been a better word choice.
Crazy_Asian_Man · 2 points · Posted at 20:27:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
On our physics I final my roommate couldn't figure out the problem so he just wrote "Technically, in my frame of reference the universe revolves around me."
Asmallpieceofpaper · 44 points · Posted at 17:10:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'd bump it up to 100%
CoolLordL21 · 5 points · Posted at 19:49:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This. I mean, I know how big and empty it is; I just can't comprehend it.
Anonknee_Muss · 0 points · Posted at 20:04:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You, sir need more upvotes, here have mine.
ice_munkey · 5 points · Posted at 17:33:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Most of the space in an atom is empty as well. I almost wonder why we can't see through things.
ThinkToLaugh · 3 points · Posted at 18:02:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This demonstration of known scale from the smallest understood unit (PlanK Length) to the largest conceivable unit (size of the Universe) always fascinates me. Also, interesting that "Human" scale is pretty much within two orders of magnitude of being halfway from "Big" to "Small".
I vacillate between thinking Big is really, really big and Small is unimaginably small. Don't know which one blows my mind more!
Innalibra · 3 points · Posted at 19:01:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It does help that even a sheet of paper is going to be anything from tens of thousands to millions of atoms thick. But really it's only opaque because the atoms are absorbing visible light. If we were able to see other wavelengths, it might be transparent. Likewise, if we could only see in Ultraviolet, we wouldn't be able to see through Glass.
ice_munkey · 3 points · Posted at 19:07:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, thats why I said almost haha. The numbers are mind boggling.
Rocktopod · 5 points · Posted at 18:17:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I would argue that the universe is so big and empty that no one can really conceptualize it. We can only do the math.
ThinkToLaugh · 1 points · Posted at 18:30:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
True. Pretty much only some physicists and perhaps mathematicians can really understand it. So perhaps 99.99999% can't wrap their heads around it all. And, as you say, that is only through math expressions.
BTW, I certainly do NOT include myself in the 0.00001% that can do it.
kapxis · 3 points · Posted at 17:30:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Could probably bring that up to 100%. But I get what you mean and agree.
ThinkToLaugh · 3 points · Posted at 17:54:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Link to an interesting site illustrating scale of just our solar system. Does help bring things into some little perspective.
BTW, when you get to the Earth/Moon system, consider that the furthest any person has ever been from Earth is just to the far side of the moon. Then consider what an undertaking it is trying to get to Mars!
chaun2 · 2 points · Posted at 18:53:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is just natural self preservation at work. The very last thing any lifeform needs is a proper perspective.
Something like that, anyway
-Douglas Adams
darwin2500 · 2 points · Posted at 19:27:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Beyond mathematical abstractions, I don't think the human brain is capable of 'really' understanding such a thing.
PacManDreaming · 2 points · Posted at 20:38:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
“Space,” it says, “is big. Really big. You just won’t believe how vastly, hugely, mindbogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it’s a long way down the road to the chemist’s, but that’s just peanuts to space.”
LKincheloe · 1 points · Posted at 17:50:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When you're stuck in one itty bitty portion of it along with 7.5 billion other humans and trillions of various other lifeforms. Everywhere else seems like a reprieve.
Absynthexx · 1 points · Posted at 18:28:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think that people who regurgitate Fermi's paradox as if it's some profound concept need to read your comment more carefully.
The solution to Fermi's paradox is that his assumptions are flawed w.r.t. technology and interstellar travel. Technology is still bound by the laws of physics.
lurpaq · 1 points · Posted at 18:35:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Are you in the 1% who does understand it?
ThinkToLaugh · 2 points · Posted at 18:53:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Read above: but absolutely not. All I can say is that I understand how little I can understand it.
GovmentTookMaBaby · 1 points · Posted at 19:29:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yea that's really difficult to comprehend and appreciate because it is so profound in its magnitude.
zebrucie · 2 points · Posted at 16:42:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And even if you have a concept, it doesn't stop the existential crisis you have when you start thinking about multiple universes that can be inside every tiny particle that makes up the building blocks kg the atoms themselves...
Bored_ass_dude · 3 points · Posted at 17:35:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Multiple universes inside every particle?
webmistress105 · 2 points · Posted at 17:52:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Is this a thing? I hadn't heard.
thetarget3 · 1 points · Posted at 09:15:58 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
No, not according to physics
netrunui · 604 points · Posted at 14:28:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That bug types resist ground type attacks. Duh.
RiotShields · 105 points · Posted at 16:51:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I swear the type chart is different now from when I memorized it in Gen 3 (aside from Fairy). It's probably just me, though.
NotBradNotBrad · 76 points · Posted at 17:01:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Interestingly enough in Gen 1, fire didn't resist ice.
DontEatTheCandle · 36 points · Posted at 17:26:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In my head I always thought ice attacks should still be super effective against fire because it should just turn it into a water attack when it melts.
_himanshusingh_ · 14 points · Posted at 18:45:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I used to think of type effectiveness based on how that attack would work essentially on the particular foe. I'd use fighting type moves on onix not because it's a rock type but because damn, that fucking punch would obliterate the shit out of that rock snake.
47k · 24 points · Posted at 18:55:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
you ever punch a rock before ?
AimingWineSnailz · 10 points · Posted at 19:16:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
We're normal types, though.
[deleted] · 6 points · Posted at 20:05:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But we can also fight. Hence we are fighting/normal.
GreatAtLosing · 5 points · Posted at 20:09:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But a large portion of our bodies consist of water, so we better tack that on there too.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 20:36:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Some people call themselves psychic. So that's covered obviously.
No-Time_Toulouse · 1 points · Posted at 15:39:35 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
And I smoke a lotta weed, so we got grass type too
SvenHudson · 2 points · Posted at 22:00:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And Blastoise can use Ice Beam but it's still a water type.
Being able to do a thing doesn't make that your type.
Tarudizer · 13 points · Posted at 19:02:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I have. It shattered into a million pieces.
My hand, I'm talking about my hand.
Hates_escalators · 4 points · Posted at 19:56:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Have you ever tried to punch a bird?
GoOnBanMe · 4 points · Posted at 21:31:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yep.
dancesLikeaRetard · 1 points · Posted at 22:04:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Why though.
GoOnBanMe · 2 points · Posted at 22:21:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Seagulls are assholes.
dancesLikeaRetard · 2 points · Posted at 05:33:51 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Understandable, have a nice day.
_himanshusingh_ · 1 points · Posted at 21:01:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Neither have I caused thunderbolts but you got me :(
this_is_original1 · 16 points · Posted at 17:13:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In Gen 1, it took one whole turn to awaken from sleep, in addition to actually sleeping.
Tarudizer · 5 points · Posted at 19:06:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And trapping moves like Fire Spin and Wrap could wreck your shit one turn at a time and you couldn't do anything but pray to a deity of your choice for the nightmare to end so you could just die
this_is_original1 · 1 points · Posted at 22:07:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So... Darkrai?
funkmasta_kazper · 9 points · Posted at 17:53:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not to mention Psychic was stupidly OP and grass/poison (my boy Venusaur) was weak to just about everything.
Goluxas · 7 points · Posted at 17:58:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Also almost every Grass type was Grass/Poison. I think only Tangela was pure Grass.
funkmasta_kazper · 5 points · Posted at 18:02:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah. As a person who just really likes Grass type pokemon, Gen 1 made me weep.
kazeespada · 1 points · Posted at 18:27:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
As a ground type trainer, I am obligated to dislike you.
itstheclap · 2 points · Posted at 19:15:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
As an iceman. Suck it, both of you.
kazeespada · 1 points · Posted at 19:20:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ice is hard, but I usually crack ice. Your weaknesses are many.
Space_Fanatic · 3 points · Posted at 19:46:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Been playing through Fire Red on an emulator recently and I can't believe how OP psychic is. Caught an Abra early in the game and it's pretty rare that I won't 1 shot things with Psybeam even without it being super effective.
duelingdelbene · 6 points · Posted at 18:31:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Gen 1 is broken as fuck. So many weird move behaviors:
The one damaging Ghost move (Lick) is actually INEFFECTIVE against Psychic. Zero damage.
Rage is really weird.
Wrap/Fire Spin is super OP.
Critical hit chance is based on speed.
Hyper beam doesn't have to recharge if it results in a KO.
Recovery moves can fail based on your total HP.
Every 100% accuracy move has a 1/256 chance of missing.
Damage boosts can rollover to low numbers.
Toxic works strangely and also stacks with Leech Seed.
calvinocious · 2 points · Posted at 18:46:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Focus Energy is worse than useless.
duelingdelbene · 1 points · Posted at 19:04:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It has the opposite effect I believe. Also Roar and Whirlwind are useless in battle too.
calvinocious · 1 points · Posted at 19:31:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's correct, Roar is a grief move that prevents you from catching wild Growlithe. It serves no other purpose.
danjo3197 · 1 points · Posted at 19:48:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
doesn't toxic still stack with leech seed?
Rosalia_R · 3 points · Posted at 19:56:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Depends on how you define stack. Currently a Pokemon can be afflicted with both, but neither affects the amount of damage the other does, with Leech Seed being a constant amount (1/16 in Gen 1, 1/8 now) and Toxic being an amount that increases every turn.
However, in Gen 1, Toxic would increase in amount twice per turn if Leech Seed was also hitting the affected Pokemon, causing damage to rack up faster. I was also confused when I read it the first time, but it's just a really weird effect that's kind of difficult to describe in a few words.
Source: https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Toxic_(move)#Generation_I
461weavile · 1 points · Posted at 19:55:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
He means that Leech Seed incorrectly increased damage dealt every turn while Leech Seed and Toxic were both inflicted upon the target. You can be Leech Seed and any other status at the same time. Burn, Faint, Freeze, Paralyze, Poison, Sleep, and Toxic are the only statuses that you can only have one at a time, but you can have the others simultaneously (and simultaneously with one of these)
Gbjar2 · 1 points · Posted at 19:59:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
They still stack, but toxic's damage doubles every turn. In gen 1, leech seed damage would also double every turn if the target also had toxic on it. source: bulbapedia
duelingdelbene · 1 points · Posted at 20:06:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah and if you have toxic, and switch out/back in, it reverts to normal poison in gens 1-2. After that, switching out and back in goes back to the first damage level and then it increments again.
TheRealestMush · 8 points · Posted at 17:11:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Similarly Ghost wasn't super effective against Psychic in Gen 1
Goluxas · 17 points · Posted at 17:34:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I thought that it was in theory, but the only damaging Ghost type move in the game was Nightshade (EDIT: there was also Lick), which always does damage equal to your level. So weakness didn't matter.
On top of that, the only ghost types were Gastly/Haunter/Gengar, which are all half-Poison, and Poison is weak to Psychic so they got their shit wrecked.
Psychic's other weakness, Bug, only had two damaging moves: Twineedle and Pin Missile. The only bug that learned them was Beedrill, another half-Poison. (Jolteon could learn Pin Missile.)
OhGarraty · 6 points · Posted at 17:35:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Lick is Ghost type, and it was in Gen I.
Goluxas · 17 points · Posted at 17:45:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oh wow, I was sure that was a Gen 2 addition. Confirmed with the wiki though.
Another quirk of Gen 1 that I found while fact-checking: Lickitung could not learn Lick.
tpklus · 7 points · Posted at 18:08:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
He WHAT?!?!
Next you are gonna tell me that Charizard isn't a real dragon!
Frank_the_Mighty · 4 points · Posted at 18:39:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Or that in 2/3 of gen 1 games he couldn't fly
TLDM · 4 points · Posted at 17:25:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ghost didn't affect Psychic at all in Gen 1.
TLDM · 4 points · Posted at 17:27:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
From Gen 6 onwards, Steel no longer resists a couple of types (I think it's Ghost and Dark? I've not played Gen 6+). I think that and Fairy are the only changes since Gen 3 (and in fact Gen 2) though.
Derantol · 3 points · Posted at 18:08:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You're not wrong. I don't remember exactly the changes, but going into Gen 6 the type chart had a few modifications in addition to the addition of fairy type.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 19:34:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
They made it so steel doesn't resist dark and ghost but that's been the only change
Runaway_5 · 1 points · Posted at 22:57:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It has changed a bit.
Pokecole37 · 11 points · Posted at 17:21:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yet Volcarona still takes 1 million from earthquake because it has a defense stat of -5.
Goluxas · 7 points · Posted at 17:36:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But Poison is weak to Ground and a bunch of Bugs are Bug/Poison so it cancels out.
That's my defense at least.
461weavile · 1 points · Posted at 20:16:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There are 77 Bug Pokemon. 12 of those are also Poison. That's 15.6%, less 3 times the 1/18 type ratio or 5.6%, including Normal.
There are 37 Bug evolutionary families, 6 of which contain at least one Pokemon that is also Poison. That's 16.2%.
There are 5 types that are not used with Bug: Dark, Ice, Normal, Dragon, and Psychic. Eliminating these unused type combinations, Poison is only about twice as popular as the average type used with Bug, 1/13 being 7.7%. 18 Bug Pokemon, 23.4%, have no additional type, and 13, 16.7%, are also Flying, making Poison the third most common in combination with Bug.
Comparing evolutionary families, 11, 29.7%, have no additional type, and 10, 27.0%, also have Flying, which is a significant increase over the 16.2% which have Poison. It is less common to change into or from Poison type than a lack of type or Flying
CatNigga · 3 points · Posted at 17:12:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That face when EQ does nothing to heracross :)
kazeespada · 1 points · Posted at 18:26:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's what Stone Edge is for!
CatNigga · 1 points · Posted at 18:26:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Dat neutral dmg
kazeespada · 1 points · Posted at 18:33:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm trying to remember who I use to defeat heracross on my ground type team, and I'm pretty sure its Hippowdown. BREAK YOURSELF AGAINST MY HIPPO! Speed? Attack? Neutral moves? Won't scratch my HUGE defenses and HP. What's that? Slack off is an egg move for reliable recovery. Just going to spend my time, cursing myself to increase my wall!
CatNigga · 1 points · Posted at 18:35:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah hippo and se will wear away at hera. I love hippos because I set up on them unless they pack whirlwind or some goofy removal move.
kazeespada · 2 points · Posted at 18:50:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My hippo packed Curse, Slack Off, Earthquake, and Ice Fang. So setting up on him was not recommend because he would set up the same.
CatNigga · 1 points · Posted at 18:51:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Dustox iron defense quiver dance bug buzz roost 👍🏽
Your spdef would be unbuffed giving dustox a good chance to win
kazeespada · 1 points · Posted at 18:56:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, but Dustox though? Also, your starting defense is abysmal to my starting attack, so a neutral earthquake is going to force you into a roost loop. Half my team is packing rock moves.
AllisGreat · 1 points · Posted at 20:58:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Then in comes a pokemon that encores/taunts you.
kazeespada · 1 points · Posted at 21:00:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Always forces a switch, it's a solid strategy. Usually, I bring in the Garcomp though.
AllisGreat · 1 points · Posted at 21:09:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Forgot to mention the pokemon I switched in was Alolan Ninetales, it's now hailing and your Garchomp's abilities are useless. On the turn you switched out I used Aurora Veil and now I take half damage.
A 100% accurate Blizzard awaits :p
kazeespada · 1 points · Posted at 21:19:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Wouldn't switch a Garchomp into a ninetails. I would use a mamoswine, and you are expecting a stone edge.
Edit: Can't change the game after we start playing.
Edit 2: Assuming they came in at the same time, it's sand because slowest weather wins and Hippowdon is SLOW.
kazeespada · 1 points · Posted at 18:27:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I knew this fact, but it was mostly worseless given the average bug type has paper defenses. Except you.... Forretress.
Erinysceidae · 1 points · Posted at 18:56:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Bug Pokémon are awesome. They're also strong against dark because of the popularity of Japanese sentai heroes being bug-themed. Bug is heroes, Dark is villains.
RosemaryCrafting · 1 points · Posted at 23:05:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When you're new to Pokémon and you have no idea what any of the types do
Somebody fill me please
TalmadgeReynolds · 120 points · Posted at 15:03:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Let people get off a train before you try and get on.
vtjingo81 · 3 points · Posted at 17:50:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Same for elevators!
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:44:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But what happens if you're getting out of a train and into an elevator?
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 06:26:23 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Also elevators
geek66 · 230 points · Posted at 15:10:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That they are the 90%
obligarchy1 · 39 points · Posted at 17:43:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What about 10% of 90%
ArthursPoodle · 23 points · Posted at 18:11:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Meta
GlassShatter-mk2 · 4 points · Posted at 20:00:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You misspelled
M E T A
E
T
A
gamerzerg · 11 points · Posted at 20:19:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
GlassShatter-mk2 · 5 points · Posted at 20:22:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Holy Shit.
1up_for_life · 4 points · Posted at 18:09:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I know, right?
Look at them all down there furrowing their brows in a desperate attempt to comprehend the situation.
chaun2 · 3 points · Posted at 18:44:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I am not sure, but I think that is that American Optimism at work. Not sure that the rest of the world isn't painfully aware they are part of the 90%..... :(
There are upsides to American optimism, this just happens to be a downside.
kenriko · 1 points · Posted at 18:49:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Speak for yourself. Gonna go hug my Tesla now.
monzzter221 · 1 points · Posted at 19:46:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Technically, they're the 100%. They're only 90% likely to be in the 90%.
firedrake242 · 1 points · Posted at 20:16:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Exactly. The people, united, will never be defeated!
Peachesx · 33 points · Posted at 16:34:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The saying "the customer is always right" isn't about customer service...
RosesforEos · 2 points · Posted at 19:29:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Is it about employee behavior then?
delorean225 · 22 points · Posted at 19:41:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's about what you're selling. If you think Y is better than X, but your customers think X is better, don't try to convince them all to buy Y instead. Sell them X. The customer is always right.
RosesforEos · 5 points · Posted at 19:42:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Thanks for the explanation!
kingkongjaffa · 31 points · Posted at 17:00:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I have a personal gripe with people failing to understand that an amount of money that sounds like a lot to one person, is not a lot to an entire country.
Here in the UK, many people were told that if they voted to leave the EU £350 million a week would go to the NHS.
Now whether or not you think the NHS needs funding, or whether or not you think the UK should be in or out of the EU, this is a terrible proposition.
The UK economy is over 2 trillion dollars.
The average person saw £350m a week and said oh wow that's a lot of money.
In reality this is like someone who makes 60k a year and telling them they can have an extra $10.50 a week.
Hypothesis_Null · 5 points · Posted at 19:11:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sorry, good message but bad example. That's still $17 Billion annually. For that much annually, the UK could have its own NASA with slightly less expensive coffee mugs.
A better comparison than GDP is the Government's budget. In the US that about $4 Trillion. In Great Britain I'd assume it's somewhere between $400 Billion and $600 Billion.
17 out of 400 is nothing to sneeze at.
Gibslayer · 3 points · Posted at 19:23:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Only that £350mil is before rebates. We get a lot of that back anyway so we couldn't.
The real amount is closer to £180m.
Hypothesis_Null · 3 points · Posted at 19:44:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm not here to argue whether Brexit was a good idea. Simply that with the example given, 350m/week is not an inconsequential amount, even to the operation of a country.
Gibslayer · 2 points · Posted at 20:33:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Never claimed you were. But just saying that 350m/week isn't actually 350m/week. As most of that money is never actually send. 350m/week is how much we are documented to pay before all the rebates and such are applied.
The UK has never paid 350m/week to the EU. Most of that 350m/week is spent in the UK by the UK government.
Hypothesis_Null · 1 points · Posted at 20:34:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Fair enough.
Also, I want to apologize, I had a typo there - it's supposed to be 350m/week, and you accidentally propegated it.
Gibslayer · 2 points · Posted at 20:38:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ah so you did. Yea I just copied and pasted your 350b/week so I didn't have to keep typing it out. I shoulda noticed that.
But yea. UK doesn't lose even close to 350m/week to the EU. Most remains in the UK and ever actually gets paid to the EU. Something a lot of people don't seem to understand. Basically though technically the bus was true in the sense that on paper we give 350m/week. The reality is we simply don't and it's really misleading to say we do.
OnAKaiserRoll · 1 points · Posted at 19:58:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I thought the point of Brexit was to keep the rebates?
kingkongjaffa · 1 points · Posted at 19:39:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You are right.
That being said it's only 4.25% of the 400 billion say for your lower bound.
The contribution from the EU as it stood was in excess of that - The CBI estimates that the net benefit of EU membership is worth 4-5% of GDP to the UK, or £62bn-£78bn per year.
Also the wider trade benefits far outweigh the principle choice of 350m /wk or the EU that the leave side were pushing.
jbaird · 2 points · Posted at 18:52:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is a good one, We intuitively know that a hundred dollars and the thousand dollars is two very different amounts of money but million and billion all kind of sound like 'a shitload of money' to our brains when they are very very different amounts.
Especially when it comes to government spending I wish they would always give a 'per person per year amount' tax amount or sure, a percentage of the whole so we know what we are arguing about. The government spending a million dollars on something is spare change, its nothing.. 'the government spent 10 million figuring out we should do X or Y' isn't that crazy, that's just 50 people doing their day to day jobs for a month and is money well spent.
Same thing with 'rich' people. Actors and star athletes have net worths in the Hundred million range.. That's a tenth of a billion dollars. There are about 2000 billionaires in the world and they mostly own businesses (some entertainment and sports related ones too!) It would take a thousand Lebron James to equal Bill Gates, those are very different amounts of money..
Jipptomilly · 31 points · Posted at 17:49:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Software development. I see too many people complaining about lack of features and how easy they are to add.
Then when they get their features, the same people complain about lack of updates as if they devs aren't now dealing with a ton of branching logic in their code because of all the features they added.
suhas7 · 114 points · Posted at 17:00:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The sunk cost fallacy.
[deleted] · 10 points · Posted at 19:40:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Alternatively gamber's fallacy
PM_PICS_OF_ME_NAKED · 10 points · Posted at 18:44:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I swear I have to explain it at least once a week, frequently to the same people.
ScrawledItalix · 16 points · Posted at 19:05:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Uh huh. And uh, would you mind explaining that to me? So I can know if uh... if YOU'RE right
OverwatchTracer · 39 points · Posted at 19:17:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Let's say you're at some super high class restaurant, where to-go boxes aren't a thing. You order a nice old plate of amazing food, which you pay X amount of money for. The problem is you're only hungry enough to finish half the food. That's half your money wasted! So you should force yourself to eat the rest, correct?
Nope. That's the sunk cost fallacy. A sunk cost is an amount of money you've already spent with no way of getting back, a cost that shouldn't factor into your economic decisions because you've already spent it. You've already spent the money on the food, with no way to get it back. No one's really going to want your scraps at the restaurant, and you can't take it for leftovers. Eating the rest of the food isn't going to "keep you from losing money." You can't get that money back. All it's going to do is make you eat too much, hurting only yourself.
Another, maybe better example than my convoluted one that TOTALLY WASNT INSPIRED BY ANY RECENT EVENTS is this one, provided by Lifehacker:
Sauce
cwilk410 · 19 points · Posted at 19:32:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My favorite is pro sports. They pay a multi-million dollar salary and wont bench crap players because they are paying so much for them. They already signed away the money- put in second string! I know that isn't always a solution, but this example made a lot of sense to me.
[deleted] · 14 points · Posted at 19:41:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
See this makes sense but OP's example doesn't. There is value in food for someone who doesn't have food, and there is value in experiencing something like a concert even if it isn't tangible. Maybe OP has to explain it to people so many times because he is using the wrong examples
Edit:grammar
polyscifail · 2 points · Posted at 19:59:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I agree the OP's examples aren't good ones. But, I think the food example is better if you use his assumptions. He's assuming:.
Now, you could argue eating the food gives you calories so you can reduce your caloric intake later if you eat it now. But's a stretch. So, I think this is a decent example.
On the other hand, there's lots of reason to go to a concert sick (bragging rights, social obligations, etc...)
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:06:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
polyscifail · 1 points · Posted at 20:40:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's situational. For example, if I eat a huge lunch, I might not be in the mood for a big dinner too. So, I could get a cost savings on my next meal. However, if I eat a small dinner, or a huge dinner, it doesn't really impact how hungry I am in the morning. Super Fancy restaurants tend to be visited more a dinner, so you can assume the OP's correct if he limits it to dinner and not lunch / breakfast.
Beyond that, for most Americans at least, too many calories is a bigger problem than too few. Over eating at meal X to the point you're not hungry at meal Y often has to be done to at unhealthy level.
let's say I usually eat 600 calories for breakfast, 600 for lunch, and 800 for dinner. Eating 900 calories for breakfast usually doesn't mean I eat 300 calories at lunch. It usually means I eat a normal lunch and over eat for that day. Now, if I eat a huge 1500 calorie breakfast, I might skip lunch, but I'll probably be more hungry by dinner, and over eat for that day.
So, the negative impact of eating too many calories would cancel out and cost savings, at least for upper middle class westerns who would be able to afford an expensive meal in the first place.
deltaexdeltatee · 5 points · Posted at 19:38:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The best way I've heard it explained is that when you make a decision, you should try and ignore any PAST decisions (i.e. money already spent) and focus on the best outcome RIGHT NOW.
Anthracitation · 4 points · Posted at 19:42:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I understand I can't get the money for the concert ticket back. But whether I go to the concert or not decides whether or not I get something for my money – after all, I might still enjoy the concert, even though I have a cold. If it's simply assumed that I won't benefit at all from still going to the concert or eating the rest of the fancy food, is it really a fallacy?
OverwatchTracer · 4 points · Posted at 20:11:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's a little unclear, yeah. I think what the author means is that going to the concert while cold will only be damaging to your health and well-being. It's similar to my food analogy, as someone else pointed out, that you may enjoy the rest of the food, but it'll only hurt you in the long run.
For further reading by a man who can explain it better than I, this article explores in fallacy through the lens of Farmville.
ScrawledItalix · 12 points · Posted at 19:19:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ah. Well then yes, you know what it is.
polyscifail · 3 points · Posted at 20:05:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think this is hard because there are so few black and white issues.
The only cut and dry example I can think about is betting in poker. You don't bet on how much you already bet, that's truly sunk.
AlrightyAlmighty · 1 points · Posted at 01:10:59 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Poker is a very good example indeed
HusbandAndWifi · 3 points · Posted at 21:08:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Great example. Also, what if you could take the leftovers home? 1 month later you find them in your fridge and calculate those are “worth” $50 so you’d “better eat” that expensive spoiled food. You could have spent thousands on that meal and it would never make the spoiled leftovers worth anything.
Lizardrevenge · 3 points · Posted at 21:44:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Fucking Thanks. I had to go through an inordinate amount of comments along the lines of
"hurr Durr all these dirty peasants not knowing something they wouldn't come across in daily life. What a bunch if morons, but hey, why would we feel the need to explain this thing we fucking know isnt common knowledge? It's pointless because anyone not already aware is a dirty ignorant plebian who hasn't the intelligence nor the want to understand this sacred wisdom. Hey, Williams, shall you he attending the Oxford 10 year reunion?"
"Doubtlessly, Richard, my presence shall Grace the commons. Well done, by the way, putting the rabble in their place, by the way. One can only fathom the disastrous sequela of our unending financial omniscience falling into the hands of those below us. Say old sport, will you have the butler, Claudius, pass another champagne flute, I seem to have unwittingly cast mine mine seawords, and off the deck of this fair yacht"
"Indeeeeeewbitably, my fair friend"
All jokes aside, in a thread about things most people don't know understand, please offer at least a basic explanation.
P.S. If any of you are Oxford graduates with private yachts, I'm totally looking for a job as a champagne flute dispenser, hmu.
PM_PICS_OF_ME_NAKED · 4 points · Posted at 20:55:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I am an idiot.
My father in law has put thousands, possibly in the tens of thousands, replacing damn near everything on his vehicle. He feels like that is the way to go because he already has the car and hasn't bothered to do the math on how much he has thrown away rather than getting a new car.
He feels that because he already spent a shitload on his car that all of that money would be wasted if he got a new car. In reality that money is gone either way, going forward his costs would be less if he bought a new car. Because he has spent so much on the car he feels that he has to continue otherwise he wasted his money.
That about right?
I don't understand why you left that comment, mind explaining it? You didn't explain it, the fallacy, so what gives you the right to question my understanding?Edit: God damn it, I just got your point. That's actually pretty good.
Merkyorz · 5 points · Posted at 20:59:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The best examples I've heard involve relationships.
Some people stay with an SO that they are no longer into for way longer than they should, because "I've already put 5 years of my life into this relationship." That's a sunk cost fallacy. They should break up with the person now instead of staying in a miserable relationship for however many more years.
AlrightyAlmighty · 2 points · Posted at 01:20:08 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
You can't automatically asume that. There might be ways to fix things in a relationship. There might be good reasons to stay in a suboptimal relationship for a period of time because the situation after breaking up might realistically be even less optimal for them.
Yours is not a bad example, it's just not the best, I think, because there are too many factors going into a relationship
PM_PICS_OF_ME_NAKED · 1 points · Posted at 21:09:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
He was pointing out that I keep telling the same people the same thing over and over. Kind of playing on the fallacy, not exactly correctly but close enough to get. It isn't really a sunken cost to try to help the people around me save money/time regardless of how many times I have to repeat myself.
I got a chuckle when I got his point though.
KaiserPhil · 4 points · Posted at 19:35:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm an engineer. Most of my fellow engineers don't understand this. I don't know how anyone can possibly get a degree without knowing this.
HitlerHistorian · 2 points · Posted at 19:35:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
People were struggling with that recently with the $9 billion power plant in South Carolina that was just abandoned.
laterdude · 1286 points · Posted at 14:18:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The Economy
Those manufacturing jobs ain't ever coming back. It's simply more cost-effective to contract your production overseas or to Mexico. Plus automation. You can't stop the robots.
Automationdomination · 597 points · Posted at 14:37:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yup. China isn't taking your jobs away, Americans like me are.
DoPeopleEvenLookHere · 96 points · Posted at 15:30:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
THEY TOOK 'ER KARMA
lightlysaltedtarako · 6 points · Posted at 17:25:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
THEY TOOK 'ER KARMA!
HailOurDearLordHelix · 4 points · Posted at 18:21:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
DE TURK ER KERRRM!
tmac3954 · 2 points · Posted at 19:07:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
DE DURR DE GOLD
DoPeopleEvenLookHere · 1 points · Posted at 23:30:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
DE GGGGEEEERRRRDDDDD
LibertyTerp · 121 points · Posted at 15:26:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
To be fair, they both are.
I'd say the thing 90% of Americans don't get is that "more jobs" is not the real goal. We could have 100% employment instantly and people would be poorer and less happy.
People are happy when they are financially independent due to their own efforts. Wages grow when people work hard to learn valuable skills, which is largely only worth doing to avoid the possibility of unemployment or having to work a low wage job. If jobs or income was guaranteed, fewer people would learn those skills, start businesses, and work hard - because the reward for doing so would be lower.
needzmoarlow · 24 points · Posted at 16:33:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
We're still living in a consumerist/materialistic society. If everyone was guaranteed enough income to have food, shelter, and transportation, most would still be motivated to have better. Better food, nicer house, nicer car, money to travel, etc. to show that they're still better than everyone else.
inSearchOfLostThyme · 1 points · Posted at 16:51:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Can you cite any scientific studies on this? I know I wouldn't be motivated unless the living conditions were really substandard compared to those around me, if I'm being brutally honest with myself
needzmoarlow · 18 points · Posted at 17:03:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There was a small area of Manitoba that tried it out and didn't see change in employment. Whether that would play out similarly in a larger, more diverse population is unknown.
But from a logic standpoint, why would brands like Lamborghini, Ferrari, and Bugatti exist when a Toyota will do? Why do people buy million dollar homes with more bedrooms than people living there?
Captain_Swing · 2 points · Posted at 21:29:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's a central premise of economics. Needs are finite but wants are infinite, so resources to some extent will always be scarce.
lonesoldier4789 · 102 points · Posted at 16:21:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
if a basic livable income was guranteed people would still seek out skills to have higher paying jobs.
Montem_ · 33 points · Posted at 17:35:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And maybe some wouldn't. And that's okay. Not everyone needs to fight to be the best. Some people are content with waking up and not doing much. Consuming media like Television, Radio, and Music, and purchasing things still makes the economy function.
If someone doesn't feel like they can contribute to society in an active way why should we force them to?
[deleted] · -2 points · Posted at 18:25:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
deja_entend_u · 11 points · Posted at 18:28:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
By providing incentives....like more money for you to choose that path.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:43:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
videohuevos · 6 points · Posted at 19:00:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In exchange for contributing to society you get more money than someone who isn't contributing to society. The people who don't contribute get the basic necessities and limited entertainment but wouldn't have as many luxuries as someone who does contribute.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 19:17:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
videohuevos · 3 points · Posted at 20:17:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The government doesn't decide who gets what. The basic income is so that people don't have to work to live. But that doesn't mean the people who work will by paying for the people who don't work to have nice things. If you want more than the basic quality of life provided by the government or you don't wanna sit around all day doing nothing then you get a job or start a business.
In today's society there are still a lot of jobs that need to be done by people in order for everything to work. As automation continues to get better and cheaper that number of necessary jobs will drastically decrease. Either the number of people will also drastically decrease or society will implement a system to provide for them.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 20:25:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
videohuevos · 3 points · Posted at 21:04:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The money will come from businesses in the form of taxes. The government will give money to the people in the form of basic income and the people will give that money to businesses in exchange for products and services. Of course this is all dependent on there being enough resources to provide the necessities to everyone but if there aren't then you either need to increase supply or decrease demand.
I think you're also overestimating how many people will be happy with just the bare necessities. In general people want to do things that stimulate them physically and mentally. We are where we are as a species because we wanted more than just survival.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 21:33:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So how do you plan on keeping businesses here when they eventually leave to another country that has lower taxes and thus overhead? Cant give them subsidies cause the other businesses are gone. Cant charge them more in taxes as it increases the driving factor in leaving and thus eventually to a failed economy.
videohuevos · 1 points · Posted at 22:09:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You're still thinking in terms of today's economy. If we start taxing businesses without changing anything else they'll find a way to do business cheaper. We've seen that with labor outsourcing. The widespread use of automation will eliminate almost all of the overhead associated with employees. That plus the benefits of selling to millions of people will outweigh the drawbacks of extra taxes. Also, companies don't have to be located in the country to have their products taxed. Imports and exports are also taxed.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 23:09:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Import and export taxes are simply passed onto the consumer. Income taxes will send the companies elsewhere.
bennihana123 · 1 points · Posted at 19:44:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Everyone would get the same. But that would only cover basic necessities. If you want more money you would get a job and contribute.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:52:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I understand, but if people aren't contributing then why do they get benefits.
lvysaur · 2 points · Posted at 20:00:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The general idea is we have a moral obligation to ensure a basic standard of living, even to those who are unable to find a job. We've moved on from social Darwinism a while ago.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:06:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
People can feel they have a moral obligation and voluntarily give their money away, but making you're subjective opinion on what is moral and what is not a legal requirement is flat out the wrong way to go about it.
bennihana123 · 1 points · Posted at 20:04:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Essentially, half of human labor will potentially be replaced my machines, so something will have to be done so the population doesn't fall into extreme inequality/poverty which will end up costing more than implementing UBI. This is a pretty good article.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:09:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Eventually all human labor will, except for the people programming the robots and AI.
Amidatelion · 1 points · Posted at 19:45:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No, what the government provides is equal across the board. The individual decides to seek out luxuries.
[deleted] · -4 points · Posted at 19:49:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
A_Crazed_Hobo · 2 points · Posted at 20:04:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
god help your grandparents...
SlipperyFrob · 2 points · Posted at 19:41:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You could take the UBI, afford your basic needs, and then not actively contribute to society. You'd probably have to have a roommate to afford housing, cook most of your meals, limit yourself to a couple beers a week, rely on public transportation to get around anywhere, and in general be careful with your budgeting. Or you could take the UBI and go get a job to bring in another $20k/year or more after taxes, and then upgrade your lifestyle however you want. What do you think most people are going to do?
SonOfYossarian · 2 points · Posted at 18:56:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No, you're paying yourself so you can afford luxuries that a non-working person can't. In a UBI-based society, you'd have to work for anything more than the bare essentials.
[deleted] · -3 points · Posted at 18:59:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
SonOfYossarian · 5 points · Posted at 19:04:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You'd be able to go on vacations and eat out at restaurants while the complacent people are eating government cheese in one-room apartments. If they're satisfied with that, so be it.
[deleted] · -2 points · Posted at 19:16:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
SonOfYossarian · 5 points · Posted at 19:23:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's more efficient than the system we have right now. Fewer middlemen. Not to mention that everyone, regardless of class, would receive UBI payments.
[deleted] · -2 points · Posted at 19:27:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
SonOfYossarian · 3 points · Posted at 19:30:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No, as in the current system splits up welfare benefits between half a dozen taxpayer-funded agencies. UBI could replace them with one.
deja_entend_u · 2 points · Posted at 18:57:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No you are choosing to work for additional pay to yourself because you and everyone else already has a base pay livable wage.
E.g. if I had a livable wage I would continue to work so that I could make even more (though I would happily cut down to only high productive hours maybe like 30 or so). Especially since I invested so much into my education I would like to pay back society for everything I have been given.
[deleted] · -3 points · Posted at 18:59:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
deja_entend_u · 7 points · Posted at 19:05:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sounds pretty entitled. Nothing you have ever done was accomplished by you alone. You didn't pave roads. You didn't make your own mail system. You didn't write the text books You learned from. You didn't found the country. You ain't entitled to shit but what's outline in the land you were born in. Welcome to society where you will be held accountable and taxed to contributing to what has been handed to your entitled butt.
sheedy22 · 3 points · Posted at 19:10:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Couldnt have said it better myself.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 19:15:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
deja_entend_u · 3 points · Posted at 19:18:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
K....then leave? The rest of us will go ahead and reap the rewards of those that came before us and build on their dreams of leaving a better world for those that come after.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:24:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Point me to a hospitable location on Earth that is not claimed by a government and gladly. Until then, stop acting like you have the right to take the money I earned with my life and freedom.
deja_entend_u · 3 points · Posted at 19:34:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oh poor baby, you don't like that you live in modern times. What makes you exempt from contributing back again?
And I thank you for being like me and paying taxes to maintain a military and epa and judges and teachers and forest rangers and everything else this country needs like libraries and clean water.
Lol you point to me the logic behind you thinking you get to be exempt from contributing to society.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:44:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What makes them exempt from contributing? This entire argument started with me asking how they get to be exempt from contributing to the economy, and you still haven't answered my question.
deja_entend_u · 3 points · Posted at 20:08:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I did, or maybe it was to someone else apologies.
Eventually automation will remove every conceivable work position within the next few centuries. AI will remove special programming jobs. Houses will be 3d printed roads self paved by robots maintained by robots ad etc.
No one will NEED to contribute eventually. It will be about want.
Humans need to get past the idea of everyone working for survival.
It will require a fundamental shift eventually to a resource based economy sustained by an automated work force.
Either only the people that own those automated systems will be hyper wealthy leaving everyone else to scratch dirt for nothing, or they will have to be willing to hand over the rewards that everyone else helped build.
We have already started approaching this. Doctors getting replaced by machines that have access to every medical case in history or that can monitor the body faster and with higher accuracy than any trained anesthesia doctor. Machines that can sew tissue at levels the human eye can barely perceive.
Ai that can trade stock faster and smarter than any human.
The positions top and bottom will be under siege than everyone between. Then what?
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:11:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No our economy will go to a service economy where people pay for human interaction essentially. Just the opposite of how people feel about customer service now.
deja_entend_u · 2 points · Posted at 20:14:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Is everyone going to be paying for interaction? That's also short sighted.
Servicing what though? Everyone taking care of the elderly? Brewing coffee?
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:18:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm talking more like guided fishing trips, where the human interaction comes with the sharing of knowledge, and building memories and experiencing things with other people you care about.
deja_entend_u · 1 points · Posted at 20:21:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ok that's beautiful and sounds like a dream job.
But the people they are giving the tour to. What do they do? Is it service all the way down? A rotating schedule of people having time off from servicing other people to be serviced?
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:23:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes basically. It isn't going to be a 1:1 ratio of tour guides to attendees. So one tour guide can host multiple groups of attendees at a time.
Prostitution was the first career and will probably be the last.
deja_entend_u · 1 points · Posted at 20:27:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sure sounds limited. There's hundreds of millions of Americans and a huge limit on the number of service jobs. Seems way more practical to move to resource base.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:30:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Are we not already a resource based economy? The jobs that aren't high level math or service based will most likely be replaced by robots.
deja_entend_u · 2 points · Posted at 20:38:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
We are a monetary based economy: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monetary_base
In the past there have been trade based, service based, even slave driven economy. Once automation kicks in, money won't mean much of anything since everything we need can be accessed by everyone.
Think the food machine of star trek printing out any food desired.
Even jobs that are high level math will be replaced eventually I think. Think quantum computers with AIs dedicated to solving new math and physics.
Once we have access to stellar objects like the sun's power (good by every job related to energy) and asteroid mining (goodbye metal values and fuel needs) what is left In the next few hundred years?
Entertainment? Not everyone can or will want too. Service? Sure some but not even close to all.
deja_entend_u · 1 points · Posted at 20:39:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Too add: http://futurewewant.org/portfolio/resource-based-economy/
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:44:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ah so communism. I can't wait to be die in bread lines.
deja_entend_u · 1 points · Posted at 20:49:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ah so ignorance. What do you do that You think can't be replaced by machines or ai in the future?
Do you call the idea of star trek communism? Why?
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 21:29:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
deja_entend_u · 1 points · Posted at 21:33:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
....Where do you think humanity is headed? Maybe not in our lives. Maybe not in our kids. But past that?
[deleted] · -1 points · Posted at 19:11:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
deja_entend_u · 3 points · Posted at 19:20:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No we're talking about the future of our country/world where there won't be enough jobs for everyone as automation takes over. Which is what will drive the need for ubi.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 19:10:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
deja_entend_u · 1 points · Posted at 19:17:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Why? I worked through college. Also didn't have my land or nation invaded by the military of a hostile nation. I invested in myself and have been given by my forefathers the opportunity to do so.
Kelevradog · 1 points · Posted at 19:36:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
They aren't mutually exclusive. They could've been GIVEN an opportunity that they took and INVESTED into. IJS very little in reality happens solely (not involving anyone or anything else; only.) because of your own efforts.
[deleted] · -3 points · Posted at 19:08:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
deja_entend_u · 6 points · Posted at 19:16:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Apparently automation isn't a thing.
Fun thought experiment: what do you do that You think won't eventually be taken over by either ai or automation?
Stock broker? Robots will do it better faster and with lower risk.
Engineer? Eventually machine learning will outpace human capability to design experiments.
Programmer? Your job is even more at risk.
Build houses? Drive trucks? Kewl say good by to those as 3r printers are delivered by self driving vehicles to build a house virtually without supervision.
Plumbing? Sure that will stick around for a while. Not everyone can be a plumber.
Medical? Lol how long you think before machines will do literally everything better than a human can? Access every medical case in history to solve medical mystery while robots perform surgery humans couldn't hope to be steady enough for?
Jobs will die. Give it 50 or 200 years. What work will there be left to do? What then? Only the owners of those machines and codes get to live?
Lol. Silliness. People still thinking in terms of their next 20 years. That's super for you mate. Others will concern ourselves with children grand children and great and on and on children who we hope to leave better off than we were.
PanduMasta · 0 points · Posted at 20:04:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Apparently all the type of jobs we currently have are everything that can exist ever and nothing new can be created.
I don't remember we can play video games for a living 20 years ago.
I don't remember we can manage social media for a living.
I don't remember we can develop mobile app for a living.
I don't remember we can design digital art for a living.
I don't remember alot of things. Maybe because it never exist, until recently.
It's really funny how one of the top comment with 6k upvotes is "Insulting someone's choice/intelligence is not going to change their mind." and now I see this.
deja_entend_u · 0 points · Posted at 20:12:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oh we don't all ascribe to the same thought processes oh no! Stupid humans varying thoughts from each other!
You think most got those jobs will be around long? Is everyone going to be a video game pro or social media manager? Sorry if I think we are at the peak of labor and that the mentality of "oh it's always been ok before" falls in a hole.
PanduMasta · 1 points · Posted at 20:41:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It appears that you failed to pick up the point I'm trying to make here. To give you a little bit of help, re-read this part
Also,
What the hell is it? Is there something wrong with your mental health? Can we talk like a normal human being? It doesn't make you sound cool or smart unfortunately. It sounds like a pretentious 12 years old, very annoying, so please cut it.
deja_entend_u · 0 points · Posted at 20:47:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I never said nothing new can be created. Just that it will be super unlikely to be able to keep up with the workforce we have as we automate. Thus the need for a ubi in the future in the first place.
The future is not looking like the horse and buggy problem. Where there were a billion other low hanging fruit jobs in the past. We are quickly leaving that behind and hopefully our population stabilizes quickly.
Also Bite me I'll talk how I always have. Do You have some problem with others that don't subscribe to your exact needs for communication? Are you some sort of 10 year old who needs to be babied?
PanduMasta · 0 points · Posted at 21:27:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is what you believe, put a "I think" infront of it. Real economy doesn't work like Star Trek or your fantasy.
What part of "it's annoying" you couldn't understand?
This is so desperate it's funny, but can you be a just little bit more original? Anyway find someone else to bark at. I don't want to bother with the like of you anymore.
404_UserNotFound · 3 points · Posted at 19:47:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I dont think you have any understanding of how this works.
No, it was taken from the economy... an economy generated by automation and consumerism here and abroad. Yes some of the money will come from taxes but it wouldn't make since to tax the UBI but rather sales, property, and import/export taxes.
Now if you take your UBI and live off of just that you should be able to live a very basic simple life.
If you want to have more in life you can work. You still get your UBI + your pay. Your pay is taxed but, again, your UBI isn't. Now your pay will be based on your work just like it is now.
Now there is some questions that will take time to answer and will depend on the technology of automation. What types of jobs are available, how difficult they are, what kind and cost of schooling for it, . . . unfortunately as robots and automation become the only solution there will be little other choice.
Montem_ · 1 points · Posted at 19:54:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm not. Everyone (already) has the option to work or not work. Some people choose the latter and find someone to be dependent on. So rather than one person being forced to support them all of society does.
This example also applies to people who are working jobs that don't need to exist anymore and could easily be automated. Automation would occur much faster than it already does if it didn't mean it would destroy people's livelihoods.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 19:57:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Montem_ · 3 points · Posted at 20:39:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is not a matter of choice. These are people who did not have access to the means of finding a 'more permanent' way to make money. They thought their way was permanent.
The only difference between those people and the wealthy kids who I go to university with and who work my job is the latter never have to worry because mommy and/or daddy or some mommy and daddy along the line got lucky and were able to exploit the labour of others to get rich.
Not to mention we as a society have chosen to actively discourage some groups from supporting themselves. We isolate addicts to a point where they have nothing to do but use drugs or go to jail, and make accessing work even more difficult. We tell people with downs syndrome they cannot be functioning members of society when many of them in fact can with a minute amount of patience. We decided that both children and retirees should be subsidized by society rather than having to work while you're growing/work till you're dead.
What's the problem with allowing people who are contributing minimally to drop out of the workforce? Society exists to support each other. We do that every day in helping our friends and family, and smiling at strangers on the street, but we've created a society so obsessed with money that the government taking another few dollars from everyone per week (or a bunch of money if you're making a ridiculous amount of money and it couldn't actually matter) is a nightmare.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 20:43:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Montem_ · 3 points · Posted at 20:49:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I want a centralized government that properly regulates the economy, and other issues, in a form that prevents greed-drive abuse like we currently have to ensure that it is a government by and for the people. Like the Scandinavian countries.
As for if it's voluntary or not, I believe that being a part of society means you are receiving the support of society, and therefore are a supporting member of the society. Hence the term being a "Social Contract", implying you are both giving and getting something to participate. You are welcome to break the contract, but that comes with the consequences of no longer having the support of society, which many people choose to do and live mostly off the grid and minimally interact with society. The other option is to push for changes when the social contract is no longer functioning as it currently is, which I am a big believer in.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 21:29:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Subjecting someone to something simply because they were born in it isnt right. Thatd be like saying we have a contractual agreement I have to adhere to yet didnt agree to or even know about.
Montem_ · 1 points · Posted at 14:17:06 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Except that's exactly how society works. We are subjected to so much based on where we were born, our genetics, and what our family has done in the past. These aren't things we agreed to at any point, they're simply things that are.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 15:09:37 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
That doesn't make it right.
UndoubtedlyOriginal · -6 points · Posted at 18:27:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Nobody is "forcing" you to go to work in the morning. Nobody will show up to your house with a gun and say "get back to your desk".
Of course you will eventually be fired, but you do not have a natural "right" to the job that you currently have. It was by voluntary association that you decided to work for your employer, and your employer decided to hire you.
The fact that you will eventually starve to death is not proof that society is "forcing" you to work. Your needing food to survive is a fact of the universe. Other than working to acquire it (or seeking the charity of others), your only option is to steal it from someone else, who has worked to produce it, or acquired it through some voluntary transaction.
The universe was here first and will be here long after you're gone. Everybody needs to eat. Stop taking things from others by actual force and then justifying it ex-post-facto by saying that nature forced you to steal it.
PapaSolidus · 7 points · Posted at 19:07:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You missed the point, pal. By a long shot.
Montem_ · 2 points · Posted at 20:07:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Except everything you're describing are social constructs already. Before the creation of society, when humans weren't humans and were animals, we didn't pay rent, or pay for food, or have any sort of taxes or worry about land. We found shelter or built it, and foraged or hunted food. That option simply doesn't exist anymore, and therefore people have entered into a social contract where they offer the one thing they have: their labour. The problem is, not all humans are equal, and not all ability to labour is the same. For a long time, this wasn't a problem, as the ability to screw in a screw on an assembly line was enough to make enough money in a 40 hour a week job and live a decent life.
But, the world is changing, and many of the jobs that requite basic labour are automated, and we continue to automate more and more complex jobs. Shouldn't that allow for more people to recieve back all that their ancestor's labour created? Most people want to contribute to society, and try very earnestly at it. If you've ever done nothing productive for an extended period of time, it's difficult. Often times people will just start doing socially productive things, like good deeds for friends or creating art.
Allowing for a system where people are free to govern their own lives and not worry if what they are doing is 'profitable' is a logical outcome of a society where labour is no longer a valuable resource, unless we go with the other option of letting these 'weaker labourers' suffer because of their inferiority, often caused by an initial lack of access to education and other resources important to creativity and adaption necessary for the changing workforce.
UndoubtedlyOriginal · 1 points · Posted at 21:32:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And people lived in complete and utter poverty. Don't glorify the past This is not an option that has been taken away from people.
Sorry, I don't remember entering into this contract. Would you also say that people in other (non-US) societies have entered into these contracts as well?
Social contract theory (whether or not you believe it exists) has nothing to do with your labor. Not that I agree with this, but as Hobbes / Rousseau originally argued it, the social contract is where an individual "either explicitly or tacitly, to surrender some of their freedoms and submit to the authority of the ruler or magistrate (or to the decision of a majority), in exchange for protection of their remaining rights."
The reason this has nothing to do with labor, is because at the time people were debating the topic (1600s-1700s), most people were still living like animals (apparently): scraping by in poverty in their own built shelters, surviving on subsistence farming, not paying rent or taxes, etc.
"For a long time" was a period of barely 100 years. And you are operating under a very, very, very different definition of "live a decent life" than people expect in the year 2017. There were no iphones or color TVs - there wasn't even electricity until the early 1900s in most parts of the US, let alone in foreign nations. You don't need to make $60,000/yr in the US to live a lifestyle equivalent to someone in the middle class during the 1950s.
And more jobs are created in their place, because people always want to consume more and more stuff (either by volume or complexity).
I honestly have no idea what this means. You already receive all that your ancestors left to you (minus tax). Anything else would be things that you've taken from other people's ancestors. By that logic, are poor people in Bangladesh entitled to your income, because we are all brothers and sisters here on planet Earth? Shouldn't they benefit from all of the labor of others around the world? I mean, they're currently living in complete destitution. You'd be in the top 1% for sure.
Is an immigrant who moves to the United States next Tuesday also entitled to collect a check based on the cumulative labor of your ancestors?
If they are truly providing value for others in their community, then they can be paid for it (less the obvious fact that gov't sets wage regulations and makes it very hard for people to start businesses & get paid for things).
You are missing the #1 largest point of capitalism. The thing that makes it so great. In order to achieve "profit" you have to provide things or services to the people around you / in your community, in excess of the creations of others that you use up in the process. To do something truly valuable whether it's being a cashier at a supermarket, or creating a work of art, requires that other people want your services enough that they are willing to give something of theirs in return (money, food, etc).
This will almost certainly never be the case. And if it is the case, we will be such an automated society that the price of all commodities will be so close to zero, that anyone will be able to afford any items they need to survive. As of now, we are not even close to having enough real resources to go around, for everyone to live the comfortable middle class existence that you dream of. Even if you exclude the rest of planet Earth outside of the US - we still do not have nearly enough resources.
I'm not suggesting that anyone should "suffer because of their inferiority". You are simply looking at the big picture in the wrong way. Your original comment stated that "Some people are content with waking up and not doing much. Consuming media like Television, Radio, and Music, and purchasing things still makes the economy function." If people wish to wake up and contribute nothing to those around them, then fine. That's their choice. But to steal the creations of those who do work, in order to subsidize the lifestyle of those who don't is morally wrong. And to say that "purchasing things still makes the economy function" is objectively wrong. You have it backwards: producing things makes the economy function. Producing things is how the United States and Europe has gone from abject poverty, not even 150 years ago, to living in a society where "Umm, idk, I think im gonna sit home and binge watch House of Cards on Netflix with a pint of Ben and Jerry's" is a phrase that even exists.
Montem_ · 1 points · Posted at 14:36:00 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm not glorifying the past. I'm reflecting on what it looked like to live outside of a modern society. Every single society since the inception on society in the fertile crescent has had a form of social contract that people either accept "because that's the way things are" or try to change.
No, Social Contract theory does not explicitly mention labour but labour is key to understanding how and why the Social Contract has changed. In Feudalistic Europe, a large aspect of social contract was that the serfs exchanged their labour for protection by their liege and a portion of what their labour created. In Mercantilism and early Capitalism, people traded their labour for some form of monetary compensation, which could be spent at varying locations depending on the type of compensation.
As we've gotten into later capitalism, labour has changed from more physical labour into a higher value for skilled and creative labour in a way that wasn't true on a large scale outside of trader's guilds in the past (and even then, the guilds ensured that those people all received fair wages and were supportive of each other). This individualized labour created, outside of exploitative enterprising done by lieges and the owning class prior, a different economy where small, difficult to attain advantages can leave a person in a very different spot than their peers.
These advantages are things like being born in one nation as opposed to another, having your gene express white skin, or whatever other genetic traits members of the ruling class have, sex, gender, sexuality, religion, heritage, access to schooling at various levels, availability of parents during growth, and other issues along the same lines that people don't have control of.
By that logic, yes, the person in Bangladesh is entitled to part of my income, and part of the income of everyone until that person isn't living in poverty in a global society where enough wealth exists that no one should be living in poverty. We live in a globalized society, whether we like it or not, which lacks any sort of global regulation for a system that is inherently exploitative of those who have not been in the position to obtain captial.
And that's what the core of capitalism is: everyone wants to obtain capital, which inherently begets more capital. But, since capital begets capital, it is natural for capital to accumulate among a small few in unfettered capitalism. Capital does not 'produce' things. Capital does help produce things, but benign capital can exist in a state which does not actively benefit the economy, seen with things like the sub-prime mortgage market before the crash and that has arisen now. Production has, for millennia, been the core of society, but humans are decreasingly necessary for the consistent production of things and more for the less-strenuous maintenance, upgrades, and inventions of and for means of production. In a capitalist society, we assert that those with capital should own the means of production, but capital was originally obtained through land, which was owned by and gifted from the owning class since early on in civilization. We therefore still live in a hierarchical society which stratifies people who were born rich, and while there are occasional exceptions to this rule, which is a fantastic improvement created by a capitalist society, we refuse to continue to regulate in a manner that encourages people to 'work hard' as income increases fail to match inflation (in 2014 inflation was 1.6% and only people in the 90th percentile and above averaged that kind of income increase). We live in a society that does not care about the poor and no longer, and has never with the brief exception of a time between 1939 and 1980, valued their labour for its actual value.
Alt_dimension_visitr · 10 points · Posted at 17:30:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In theory. its one I'm willing to test.
Captain_Swing · 3 points · Posted at 21:27:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
They'd also be more likely to start businesses. Knowing that you aren't going to starve or be homeless if your business doesn't work out takes a lot of the risk out of it.
to_mars · 6 points · Posted at 18:06:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Some would, sure, but if there's a basic livable income remember there's an option of not working at all. Some would be happy doing just that.
There's also probably some argument that the people who want to seek out skills will be doing so anyway.
A basic livable income enables those who cannot seek out new skills - likely because they cannot afford certification or whatever. In this right, a higher minimum wage would accomplish the same thing.
zdiggler · 2 points · Posted at 18:25:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't have time for school.. I'm beat after working at shitty job all day.
Got bills to pay so I must work.
SlipperyFrob · 1 points · Posted at 19:48:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'd like to engage in academic research (of the mathy flavor--all I need is a computer with internet access and some paper and pencils), but I'm not good enough at it to secure a position as research faculty at a university. When I finish graduate school, I'll need to get an industry job, or take a huge risk on a startup and hope I can retire early in order to do research.
To me, UBI would be like getting tenure, except better: no university bureaucracy.
A_Soporific · 3 points · Posted at 17:32:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The point was that fewer would because the amount of work you would have to do wouldn't change but the relative benefits of not doing the work would stay the same. Those people who want to be respected for doing something hard or looked up to for being wealthy would still do it, but the people who do it for the stuff not so much. Because they'd already have some stuff without working, and for some people some stuff is enough stuff.
baryonyxer · 1 points · Posted at 18:16:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think you underestimate the laziness of a lot of people
bwc6 · 9 points · Posted at 17:09:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I've heard people argue that universal basic income would cause an explosion of small businesses. There are probably a ton of people with great business ideas that are unable to quit their current jobs because they're living paycheck-to-paycheck.
frogandbanjo · 11 points · Posted at 16:49:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Citation needed. I've not seen a single study exploring the link between financial independence and happiness that draws a statistically significant negative connection between happiness and "welp this money just kinda happened to me."
AgentElman · 11 points · Posted at 15:56:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
People who inherit their money and did not earn it are often happy. They do tend to create a belief that they somehow deserve their money.
redwall_hp · 7 points · Posted at 18:09:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Employment doesn't matter. If we equally portioned out all of the capital gains annually, the average American would have quite a lot of money.
Lack of jobs is one thing, but people who have them are also ill-compensated for their time. And on one hand we act disdainfully toward the poor and unemployed, but glorify the people who sit on their ass and collect capital gains.
Things suck because the vast majority of the population is exploited for a handful's great profit.
ssjumper · 3 points · Posted at 17:52:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Wages grow when you negotiate a higher wage. That's it. Effort has nothing to do with it.
orsonames · 3 points · Posted at 19:27:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You only develop skills for work? You have no personal enjoyment or development outside of what will get you more money? That is a very seriously sad way to live your life.
__crackers__ · 6 points · Posted at 17:53:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Evidence?
Everything I've read on the subject says that money isn't a particularly good motivator.
Upnorth4 · 5 points · Posted at 16:19:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My major is basically "how would automation reduce costs and allow us to manufacture stuff at home"
DSA_FAL · 3 points · Posted at 16:34:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Eventually, you'll take jobs away from the Chinese.
GiliusThunder · 5 points · Posted at 16:39:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Usernames checks out
ithasfourtoes · 2 points · Posted at 17:53:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What is your job?
CaptainObvious_1 · 2 points · Posted at 18:23:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And this is why higher education is important ladies and gentlemen.
VokN · 2 points · Posted at 15:41:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
r/totallynotrobots
OneLongEyebrowHair · 3 points · Posted at 15:51:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Guys like us aren't really doing it either. The manufacturers are demanding automation to stay competitive without offshoring. We are just filling that demand.
Time_Turner · 2 points · Posted at 18:30:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What do you do then? I'm just curious. I've been wanting to get into automation.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 21:06:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Time_Turner · 2 points · Posted at 22:33:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ah, I can imagine how that would be one of the first places that are hit by automation. Only problem is by using these remote systems you face huge problems with cyber security. So many of these things are IoT devices opened up to the internet with huge attack surfaces. I've seen systems for entire stadiums or large buildings that were simple to infultrate and allowed attackers to crank up the heat or cut cooling. Ever encounter this?
PM_ME_HARAMBE_SMUT · 3 points · Posted at 17:07:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
relevant username?
grimwalker · 4 points · Posted at 18:10:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
username checks out
[deleted] · 18 points · Posted at 17:36:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A lot of people don't realize that even if you pay the workers 5 dollars a day, it's often still cheaper to use automation. Those robots are still going to be cheaper than paying you slaves wages. Also, about half the population isn't smart enough to become a scientist or even a decent engineer. The future is likely to hold great suffering.
Gnash_ · 8 points · Posted at 18:46:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not to forget that it's these people who are giving birth to the most children.
Though, intelligence and will aren't innate so there's still hope
[deleted] · 6 points · Posted at 19:13:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[removed]
Cazz90 · 13 points · Posted at 19:32:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sure there will. Basic income is just that basic. People would want to work so they can have luxuries still.
el_muerte17 · 6 points · Posted at 20:08:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Would you though?
I mean, the idea behind basic income is, literally, to ensure people can afford basic food, clothing, and shelter. To me, this doesn't exactly conjure up an image of some guy sitting in a nice detached suburban house playing video games all day on his top of the line gaming PC while drinking plenty of beer and getting pizza delivered daily. Someone living entirely on basic is gonna be able to afford a shitty little apartment, Wal-Mart clothing, and a lot of rice and beans.
Are you saying you're so incredibly opposed to taxes that you'd give up your entire income, which even at a much higher tax rate is still gonna be piles more money than those on basic are getting, so you can join those who're living just barely above the poverty line for free?
tvdinner4me · 5 points · Posted at 20:26:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not on, but: It depends on how much more getting a high level/stress job will net you. If it's about the same as it would get me now, then I'm all for it. But if I'm working hard for a marginal increase, well life's too short
el_muerte17 · 2 points · Posted at 20:51:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well, sure, but that applies just as much today as in a hypothetical future of high taxes and UBI. I wouldn't, for example, accept a supervisory position at my work for less than $15k/year extra after seeing the stress and extra hours (of unpaid overtime) they have.
SagdiyevOfficial · -1 points · Posted at 19:01:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Why is that a problem tho? Its not like those kids will likely achieve anything.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:11:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[removed]
LothartheDestroyer · 6 points · Posted at 19:35:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And not every single person on the planet has the ability to learn these things. Otherwise they would have.
Besides, even if everyone did it would just glut the industry and drive wages down. The person starved for pay will take what they can get, and employers will begin using that as the new starting package.
It's a lose lose for everyone but those that own the robots.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 11:56:02 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
[removed]
LothartheDestroyer · 2 points · Posted at 13:42:18 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
With automation accelerating I'm not sure how any job left isn't already out of some people's reach or isn't going to lead to a massive glut in each job that the average person can get.
You're talking entire industries.
For example.
The trucking industry. There are 3.5 million truckers on the road. There's an additional 4.5 million ancillary jobs associated in that industry. That's in the US alone.
Driverless trucks are coming. Don't stick your head in the sand and say it won't. Too many companies across the globe are pushing for it. It will happen.
It's ludicrous to think that we'll just adapt those 8 million workers into something immediately. There's gonna be a time frame of suffering and misery to get those 8 million back into the work force if we can even replace those 8 million jobs.
And sure. A percentage of them will adapt and become robot servicers. But not 8 million of them.
We'll use the same percentage from our other exchange (around 33% in case you weren't paying attention).
Let's say 2.64 million become servicers.
Should we focus on that number and rejoice the fact 2.64 million people now have a job?
Where does that leave the 5.36 million people without a job that had one in that industry? Do we celebrate here too? Where do 5.36 million people go when they a) already had an education and used it for this industry b) maybe weren't cut out for college and used this as a stepping stone to a decent career or c) don't have much else to do now their lively hood is gone?
Education costs have been skyrocketing to the point even Community College is getting expensive.
And that's still me asserting that if these people could have gone to college for anything else they already would have.
So yes. There will be new industries that arise from automations stranglehold. But that still leaves millions upon millions without a job. And what about the driving wages down for these new industries?
What do we do about that? Do we say to them 'Fuck you, I got mine. Maybe you should have been born smarter?'
Do we mock them? Do we help them? Will the market sort it out?
What. Do. We. Do.
headfullofmangos · 69 points · Posted at 15:31:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
-Elon Musk
drive2fast · 8 points · Posted at 16:21:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Good money in fixin' robots though ;)
bontrose · 7 points · Posted at 18:10:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Until we make robot mechanics.
drive2fast · 4 points · Posted at 18:58:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
As a robot mechanic, I promise you the single worst application for robots is fixing robots. Our work is creative and often involves inventing new manipulators and programming.
By the tine we hit that, it will be a star trek future where we all move around in our hover chairs, constantly entertained by video screens with food always on standby. :/
RawRooster · 3 points · Posted at 20:07:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There are already neural nets if you want creativity. Just a matter of time until they learn (literally) how to do it in a nice way.
drive2fast · 0 points · Posted at 22:32:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's not just the thinking. It's the flexibility of my tasks. Do you know how many days of mine have been the same as the last? None. Not a single day has been repetitive. Do you know what robots are awful at? Different tasks. You can build a manipulator that can lift 300lb objects. Can it snake itself into an electrical panel to route a wire? No. Can you make a strong 20 jointed manipulator? Sorta. It will fall apart fast and lacks precisions. How do you make something that can take apart a hydraulic line in an awkward spot to make a pressure reading and then tig weld a fitting that is buried deep inside a machine?
Trust me, I work on this junk every day. Robots fixing robots is not even on the distant horizon. It is literally the last job to be replaced and will come in somewhere between warp drive and replicator technology.
RawRooster · 1 points · Posted at 06:48:56 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Last doesn't mean far away. Neuralnets.
drive2fast · 1 points · Posted at 15:28:48 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Again, it is as much of a hardware problem as a software problem. Machines are actually really shitty. Especially when they have to slither into a giant machine somewhere. Every 10% increase in complexity brings a 25% increase in unreliability and maintenance problems. Our hands auto repair when we sleep. Machines just wear out and break. Until we get star trek replicators I am fine.
RawRooster · 1 points · Posted at 18:06:12 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yet, even with the repairing cost, the machines are cheaper than us. It's not about perfection, it's about being better than us. There are robots out there that already drive better than us and machines are now writing articles. Better than us, because they know how to properly clickbait.
Simply put: machines are better/cheaper than us. There are already factories where more than 70% of the workforce is robotic. There are robots that do stock trading. There are janitor-ish bots, like roomba. Heck everything can be automated. Even farming is mostly automated.
To think robots will not replace us is foolish. Hardware is not a problem. They managed to get object recognition software to work on a 5 euro raspberry pi. A fucking 5 euro PC can recognise objects now.
drive2fast · 1 points · Posted at 19:24:34 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
See, the neat thing about being a robot mechanic is that the more robots there are, the more work there is. No automated repair system will ever work properly. A rat chews a wire and a code says a sensor. Fine details like how a connector feels when it goes together or getting in there to tighten the pin. There is too much variety to ever automate anything.
So learn how to fix the robots.
There is no question that the face of employment is changing and far less workers will be needed. The system must evolve along with it. A guaranteed minimum income is a must. Perhaps funds usable foe food, clothes, education, etc that appear on a debit card and expires after 30 days. The money must still be accounted for. Dumping new money leads to problems like Venezuela has. 700% inflation is bad.
I'm buying an electric robot mower that can mow acre next spring. I'm taking my job. Because I have better things to do with my time.
RawRooster · 1 points · Posted at 19:47:59 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
That was the problem until nerual nets came into play. Now variety is not a big deal for a robot anymore. They are, in a way, human like. And there is nothing that won't stop us from simulating the brain.
It should be noted that giving a neural net to a robot won't give it emotions, due to the limited input/output nodes aka what it can do/understand. A robot can still feel emotions if the neural net model permits it, but there is no need for it.
So there you go, no robot uprising and better than a human.
Face it: we will just be worthless.
drive2fast · 1 points · Posted at 19:52:05 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
You don't actually own any tools, do you?
RawRooster · 1 points · Posted at 19:59:55 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I do. Do you think a bot can't learn the thousands of uses for any single tool and apply them or come up with new techniques? Because it can.
Excuse me, I don't really understand what you are trying to say.
drive2fast · 1 points · Posted at 20:31:24 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
The physical act of repairing something, troubleshooting, tuning or custom building industrial automation is too complex a task for automation itself. It is the very thing automation is terrible at. I know this, as I work with the gear every single day.
RawRooster · 1 points · Posted at 05:18:18 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
That is exactly what machines are starting to do. We gave them a brain. They can do anything a brain can, but better.
And anything that is complex can be broken into smaller easier tasks.
Here is a well made 11 minute video that explains this situation: https://youtu.be/WSKi8HfcxEk (watch it, it's quite interesting)
There is also humans need not apply (on YouTube) if you wanna see more.
anotherhumantoo · 3 points · Posted at 19:02:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But you only need 1 robot fixer for 40 robots, and those 40 robots can each work 3 shifts a day until they're broken, soooooooo
Hurray_for_Candy · 6 points · Posted at 16:08:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think we should listen to Musk on this one, he probably knows things we don't.
HardlightCereal · 13 points · Posted at 16:42:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
YES, INDEED. I, ELON MUSK, HUMAN BUSINESSMAN KNOW THINGS THAT THE COMMON, FLESHY MAN DOES NOT, THOUGH I AM MYSELF COMPLETELY FLESHY, SAVE FOR MY CALCIUM BONES THAT ARE NOT MADE OF METAL.
Hurray_for_Candy · 1 points · Posted at 16:52:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's a good way to hide being a cyborg, being so anti-cyborg!
WarriorsCaoFanCavs · 2 points · Posted at 17:35:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oops wrong thread
LothartheDestroyer · 1 points · Posted at 19:29:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Cyborg Timmy appreciates the acknowledgment of his hard work.
sodium123 · 2 points · Posted at 17:45:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You just build bigger, more intelligent robots to stop the existing ones.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:45:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Can't stop the bot --Shaka Ponk.
Chaotic-Catastrophe · 21 points · Posted at 16:06:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's even worse than that. It seems plenty of people think jobs are created and destroyed by the will of the President alone.
Money_Bags97 · 12 points · Posted at 18:26:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"Obummer took all our jobs away!"
Yes the POTUS literally went to every small town manufacturing plant and told them to fire everyone.
[deleted] · -3 points · Posted at 19:14:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[removed]
Money_Bags97 · 18 points · Posted at 19:29:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Depends on the regulations.
Sorry but you don't have the right to dump toxic chemicals into water supplies. And if that causes layoffs to keep your profit margins that's your problem
klondike1412 · 1 points · Posted at 19:57:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Regulations on steel foundries makes it extremely inefficient (costing electricity) and provides a minimal decrease in particulates (bag-houses and electrostatic scrubbers etc. etc. provide multiple overlapping layers with minimal efficiency increase as you keep adding more) and any steel that you need to import is probably made somewhere else which has cheaper regulations and needs to be put on a truck, then on a boat, then on trucks again (#1 polluting transportation is container shipping).
If we all share the same atmosphere and planet, each country should push for increased standards while still being realistic about whether overall carbon/pollution costs can be reduced by having slightly laxer regulations at home. It's a really negative situation to be importing steel from China because of poor regulations, poor steel quality (sulphides etc., it corrodes more and often needs to be re-manufactured), extra shipping pollution, and no export taxes in China or import taxes in the US (but that's its own thing).
It's better to pollute in your own backyard where you believe your neighbors actually care and would hold companies accountable if they fuck up, rather than keep it "out of sight out of mind" where it's mostly out of control.
Holiday_in_Asgard · 4 points · Posted at 20:47:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well then we should push for an international effort to reduce greenhouse emissions. Oh wait, we did, and then Trump just gave it the middle finger.
klondike1412 · 1 points · Posted at 00:41:00 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Paris-accord style accounting would mean that you would have to pay extra to move production back to a developed country rather than a developing one. Countries with low emissions are also literally paying for poor countries to fix their problems. It's a massive wealth transfer between countries, to the tune of trillions of dollars. Most of the targets don't kick in until 2020, and compliance is kept to the countries themselves - do you think China is really going to report accurate emissions levels? Even if they tried, that's an extremely difficult technical and bureaucratic challenge. With a totalitarian government, they don't have open and honest accounting of environmental impacts.
Fixing carbon emissions won't happen by making rich countries pay poor ones, or by making the government promise to hit targets that it doesn't really have the ability to accurately enforce or measure. It'll happen when proper green energy tech hits the open market that doesn't have the massive environmental impacts of solar panels and lithium batteries, which are no better than the gasoline or natural gas engines/generators they are replacing over the short-term. By the long-term, they will be obsolete or drop in efficiency rapidly (see current solar panels & batteries). It's way better to keep using carbon for the short term until we have a revolutionary green tech invention, rather than causing so much economic harm by dumping carbon pre-emptively that we harm our ability to generate new solutions.
Holiday_in_Asgard · 1 points · Posted at 13:00:23 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm going to call for a source on the "the massive environmental impacts of solar panels and lithium batteries." Yeah, mining them out of the ground is no greener than coal. Once it is out of the ground, however, its not adding to emissions, unlike coal, which adds by being burned (meaning, btw, that we need to mine a lot of it in order to meet the same level of energy output as a solar panel. A pile of coal will keep a house cool for a day, but a solar panel array will keep a house cool for several summers, and that's being conservative). Also, assuming silicon (main material in solar panels) and lithium are infinitely renewable, all we will have to do is mine it once and make sure to recycle it. Once there is enough lithium and silicon coming out of recycling plants, mining should go down.
I'm not saying the Paris accord is perfect, either. You are right that it is optimistic to think that no country will lie about meeting compliance. However, it is better than nothing. Also, I'm going to ask for a source on "Countries with low emissions are also literally paying for poor countries to fix their problems." not sure what you mean by this or how the Paris accord could possibly make environmental impacts worse.
Money_Bags97 · 1 points · Posted at 01:43:57 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I agree with you that manufacturing processes need to be way more efficient, and importing steel causes more harm than making here in the states. However....
People dont care, especially politicians getting "campaign contributions" from these corporations. I'm not saying it's anyone else's fault but the company, but they sure as hell aren't being held accountable for their massive fuckups.
You have to keep in mind that these corporations really, truly do not give a fuck about us, money always comes first. If it weren't for regulations we'd be in the same boat as Shanghai, where people have to wear face masks to walk outside.
klondike1412 · 1 points · Posted at 01:54:29 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
They have more social capital than citizens in China. American citizens are far more empowered to have legal avenues to hold companies accountable than Chinese citizens. Remember, assuming good demands are somewhat inelastic, that steel (or whatever other good) needs to be made somewhere on planet earth. Of course manufacturing something like this or semiconductors or any other good involving toxic chemicals and waste byproducts would create a large amount of pollution, but that's just the shitty reality of life. If the country is getting swarmed in pollution, maybe citizens will understand the cost of their disposable, wasteful society and actually want something different. That's what pushed China to make such a big leap for green tech, the citizens were so mad about living conditions that they were ready to revolt. Our Western disposable consumer society is primarily what caused that. If our goods were made at home, we would have had a green technology revolution too.
Holiday_in_Asgard · 2 points · Posted at 20:44:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Actually, it has more to do with the lack of regulations regarding trade policies. You may find it easy to shit all over un-named "regulations," (and I'm not going to sit here and say that all regulations are enforced in the most efficient way possible, no one is perfect) but when you stop and think about what the most expensive regulations are you realize why they are there.
Easily the most expensive regulations in US factories are health and safety regulations. Testing equipment to make sure it won't randomly explode, putting guards on fast moving equipment so fingers don't get lost, training operators on how to safely operate the machinery, etc. Another huge cost (though not technically a regulation) are the living wages unions collectively bargain for, not to mention benefits like healthcare, pensions, etc. You know, the stuff that goes to protecting the very people whose job was lost overseas. You think they are going to want to take back their job if that means they have to take a 50% pay cut, have their kids work along side them (that's right, most of southeast Asia doesn't have those pesky child labor laws), lose all of their benefits, and severely increase their chance of losing their (or their kid's) life or limb at their job? Of course not. They don't deserve to live like that, no one deserves to live like that.
Instead of trying to win the race to the bottom, we should force other countries to come to the top. Re-negotiate our trade agreements to be "fair trade" instead of "free trade". This means we would stipulate in the trade agreement that any trading partner would have to have some minimum level of worker protection laws. This would not only bring back jobs to the US, but would also revitalize the economies of our trading partners because they would finally have jobs that paid a living wage (you know, that thing that created the middle class in the US in the first place?). All in all, it is a win win situation (except for the greedy corporations, who have to go back to paying people something they can actually survive off of).
mycatiswatchingyou · 12 points · Posted at 15:40:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I work for a company that makes bulk packaging systems and machines. You are so right about automation. Robots are the future. More and more, my company's machines are being designed to eliminate the human worker.
jondonbovi · 2 points · Posted at 21:51:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's not just manufacturing. A project that would require 10 engineers 30 years ago could be done by 3 today.
[deleted] · -7 points · Posted at 19:14:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[removed]
PiLamdOd · 4 points · Posted at 20:00:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's like saying more cars will open up new jobs for horses.
mycatiswatchingyou · 1 points · Posted at 19:50:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's exactly what I'm thinking; we're going to see less manual laborers and more computer drafters, which is what I am. I don't personally work with the robots, but we use them quite a bit here.
layendecker · 4 points · Posted at 17:57:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Manufacturing isn't even the biggest bubble, it has been more of an insidious move over the past generation or two. Once self-driving trucks become a thing (very soon, I imagine), millions of people could lose their jobs almost overnight.
CyberianSun · 4 points · Posted at 18:53:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Automation of logistical networks. This will have the largest positive and negative effect on the economy. Real time data of tracking goods and sales will make our economy hyper efficient, trends could be predicted via real time data. Prices of goods will drop significantly, but the Jobs pool will shrink dramatically, that we will really need to create more trade schools out of necessity.
UncharminglyWitty · 2 points · Posted at 18:56:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Self driving trucks will not be our working lifetime. Nothing that revolutionary moved that quickly.
mcdevistator · 2 points · Posted at 19:44:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Except that it took less than ten years for America to put men on the moon.
UncharminglyWitty · 2 points · Posted at 19:46:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Lmao I love it when people compare shit to that. "Well dadgummit if we can put a man on the moon" like that's at all relevant to legal battle self driving commercial trucks will face.
It's almost as good as when people drop the current year argument.
KakariBlue · 1 points · Posted at 03:35:31 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
What is the biggest legal battle they're going to face? Unions? Liability? Legitimately curious as I believe much of the hype around self-driving vehicles is overblown from a technical standpoint for many parts of the US let alone the world.
UncharminglyWitty · 2 points · Posted at 03:38:13 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
100% liability. and just the US gov't letting self driving vehicles be self driving all on their own.
jondonbovi · 1 points · Posted at 21:52:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
7 years ago a self driving car drove from China to Italy.
UncharminglyWitty · 1 points · Posted at 22:32:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That isn't at all relevant to the upcoming legal battle that self driving commercial vehicles will face.
jbaird · 4 points · Posted at 17:57:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And who's fault is it? all of ours.. we love cheap shitty products and continue to buy them by the ton. This isn't an evil plot by China to take over America, hell there's a good argument they're getting the shitty end of this deal (lots of horrible working conditions / environmental impact)
jondonbovi · 2 points · Posted at 22:05:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Getting an item for a cheaper price is human nature. It's silly to assume society will be willingly to pay more for the local economic benefit.
KakariBlue · 1 points · Posted at 03:37:21 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Local economic benefit is worth something to anyone with enough income to be buying wants and needs (over needs alone). Just how much it's worth and showing the frugal tightwads that is much of humanity that it's better is the hard part ;).
Vadoff · 4 points · Posted at 18:27:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Even in China, a lot of those manufacturing jobs are now being taken over by less developed asian countries and by robots.
Kimmiro · 8 points · Posted at 15:33:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Jobs are being automated away not shipped overseas. That's cheaper than overseas labor.
K20BB5 · 10 points · Posted at 16:14:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Both are happening.
Holiday_in_Asgard · 6 points · Posted at 21:00:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This narrative really bothers me. First of all, its both. I don't know why some people are trying to pretend its all robots. Robots may make up a significant portion of it, but so do trade agreements. Second of all, and maybe its just me, but it seems like this narrative wasn't pushed at all until 2016, just in time for Hillary "my husband agreed to all these trade bills" Clinton to bribe her way to becoming the democratic nominee for president. (before you jump down my throat, I voted for her. I may prefer Bernie to Hillary, but anyone is better than the Orange menace). This narrative really puts a bad taste in my mouth, which is unfortunate because its not fake, just misleading (and it doesn't have to be). There are solutions to both of these issues: Universal basic income and free college education will deal with the robots, and Fair trade (not free trade) will deal with overseas job loss. We can fix this issue, but first we need to be honest with ourselves.
Gunnilingus · 5 points · Posted at 17:52:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's not impossible to bring them back, it would just result in a net lower GDP because it would have to be forced through tariffs. However, this might ultimately result in a better quality of life for the average American blue-collar worker, because as it stands now corporations are not passing on their profits to the bulk of their employees. Shareholders and executives are reaping the lion's share of US economic growth. Point being there are two sides to the argument.
WillNyeTheScoringGuy · 2 points · Posted at 18:27:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No, it's pretty much impossible. Even if we couldn't import anything, robots would just make the products here. Even China is having problems with automation taking jobs, and they pay literal slave wages. Those jobs are never, ever coming back.
BarackHusseinSoetoro · 2 points · Posted at 18:39:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
With what magic wand is President Trump going to bring these jobs back?!
Alter__Eagle · 2 points · Posted at 18:56:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Don't be such a downer, you just need to weaken your economy enough and they'll come right back!
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:32:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Problem is that the middle class is dying because of those jobs going away. And people who take those jobs in Mexico are lower class cause the salaries are cheap (reason why it's more cost effective).
Globalization is the killer of the middle class for everyone.
ExtraSmooth · 3 points · Posted at 17:48:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Also, money, stocks, jobs, etc. are all just stand-ins for the amount of raw materials available and the efficiency of the organization in distributing and utilizing them. Creating more jobs, printing money, seeing the stock market go up, none of these things actually create more wealth. Only gathering and developing resources can do that.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 16:01:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
True, but in theory those manufacturing jobs could come back if harsh government regulation forced companies to produce in low cost U.S. states. We've had a repeated history of making companies do things that they don't want to because it hurts their bottom line and working capital, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't do it. A lack of government regulation due to no legislative results in a Republican led congress have been the reason for this.
Manufacturing in America was the reason for a lot of post war growth in the 50s and 60s - a lot of the cities affected in the Rust Belt and Detroit got fucked over by that shit. If we brought back manufacturing by providing tax incentives/grants/subsidies, we'd have substantial wage growth and spending growth which would revitalize the economy
redwall_hp · 10 points · Posted at 18:11:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You're forgetting the other half of the postwar growth: the rest of the world's manufacturing was bombed into oblivion by two terrible wars that didn't touch the US.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:45:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well we used a combination of post war manufacturing industry and recent service industry as well higher wages, educational investments, huge investments in infrastructure, and investments in research, all on the order of hundreds of billions.
The point is that we were heavily intervening and leveraging the power of big, efficient government. I think if we have a group of public policy experts, bankers, economists and other academia panel together, we could definitely figure out a way to push manufacturing back into the U.S. somehow through regulation with substantially offsetting COGS/operating costs as well as maintaining the profit incentive businesses have.
DirectlyDisturbed · 2 points · Posted at 20:56:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The main issue here is that these are the groups that are literally the ones telling us that manufacturing jobs are just gone. There aren't too many big league names throwing around ideas about new manufacturing jobs in the US because it's simply not economically feasible anymore. Those days are over. Besides, bringing them back here would be, at best, a very short-term solution to a much bigger problem.
wherearemyfeet · 6 points · Posted at 16:57:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Even in the cheapest states, the cost of goods would go up beyond what your average consumer is either willing or able to pay. That's why it's not a feasible idea.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:46:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
wherearemyfeet · 3 points · Posted at 19:03:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The reason we don't have a group of public policy experts, bankers, economists and other academia getting together to make this happen is these people have already studied it. It doesn't work. It reduces the scope for national specialisation and ramps up costs for everyone far beyond any benefit you may get from it.
tjt5055 · 14 points · Posted at 16:43:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you force companies to close down their foreign manufacturing centers and require them to build, staff and operate expensive American plants, you will see layoffs in many other areas instead. Additionally, the NASDAQ and Dow will plummet, which I'm sure we'll all enjoy.
Finally, foreign companies who are capable of manufacturing less restrictively will be able to price more cheaply and steal market share from American companies here and abroad.
It's just really bad, regressive economics aimed at appeasing those who contribute the least to our nation's economic growth.
It was great that manufacturing was such a big part of our postwar growth in the 50s and 60s, but that time has come and gone. We're a more advanced economy now, and people simply have to adapt, just like they always have. There are plenty of programs available for people to learn new job skills.
YouHaveSeenMe · -2 points · Posted at 17:21:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
All you would have to do is tax the shit out of imports. That's not forcing the companies to close down it just lets them know it will be a shitload cheaper if they just make everything in America.
amazingchickens · 5 points · Posted at 18:27:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This increases the cost of goods in the US though, as consumers now either have to pay for the tarrifs, or pay for expensive US production.
YouHaveSeenMe · -4 points · Posted at 18:48:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Which will make them pick the american product because of price, causing competition to move to america, create jobs, and try to beat their price. While at the same time small businesses will spring up over night to fill the price gap. No matter what we do to try and fix things there will be bumps here and there.
tjt5055 · 3 points · Posted at 19:55:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm sorry, man, but you simply need to do some more reading on this subject. You're missing some pretty huge factors in all of your points.
YouHaveSeenMe · 1 points · Posted at 01:50:13 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Their not my points i am just parroting them, but thanks for not insulting me and keeping it civil.
tjt5055 · 8 points · Posted at 17:29:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Certainly less restrictive, but you're still seriously increasing operating costs and now you're disrupting the global economy in order to bring back low paying jobs from the 50s... while we're at 4.3% unemployment, a seriously enviable figure.
"Tax imports". You don't think that our trading partners might have a problem with that? That that would disband existing trade agreements or trigger counteracting tariffs on our exports?
Open markets make everybody richer. It's been that way ever since the Silk Road and the Indian Ocean Merchant Trade Network. Modern China is a shining example of this principle in action
YouHaveSeenMe · -2 points · Posted at 18:17:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Our goods get tariffs put on them everywhere we send stuff. If we matched whatever they charged us it would change the game and they would have no ground to bitch. It could also be done slowly giving time to hold onto profits while they prepare for the eventual fixed maximum, which would always equal whatever they have on us.
inSearchOfLostThyme · 2 points · Posted at 16:52:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
However the increased costs of production from producing in the US would cause manufactured goods to rise in price.
lvysaur · 2 points · Posted at 20:06:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oh my. No. This is Econ 101 stuff.
Tariffs are essentially the worst form of welfare. They disrupt the market and cost investors and consumers money so a number of employees can be paid more.
But unlike normal welfare which simply redistributes money from one group to another, tariffs also stop us from making use of comparative advantage. The result is a dead loss of wealth to society as a whole.
Take Obama's failed tarriff for example.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 21:26:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Thanks for the information. I am uninformed here. Altho AEI is conservative lol
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 12:28:46 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Wow, you are right, although I don't remember being taught this in econ
Can you give me some other sources regarding international trade / domestic spending / regulation and how it may hurt businesses from AEI or any other think tanks/research institutions? I am highly interested.
Are there any other views you have aside from tariffs that you think hurt the growth and efficiency of an economy?
lvysaur · 1 points · Posted at 16:03:28 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I believe concepts such as free trade are covered pretty well in the /r/economics sidebar. As far as other policies...
Current zoning laws are way too restrictive and are probably the biggest factor in our housing shortage. 1 2
Corporate income taxes should be zero. 3. Value added taxes and negative income taxes are considered much more efficient by economists. Negative income taxes are especially useful in that they can eliminate welfare traps 4
A good number of environmental regulations should be rolled back and replaced with a carbon tax, which allows for more fluid free-market solutions instead of lines arbitrarily drawn in the sand.
Property taxes should be based on the value of the plot of land, not the structure on the land. Existing property taxes discourage development. (Another contributing factor to our housing shortage).
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:21:34 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Expand on your views in environmental reform. Tsunamis/flooding/environmental disaster/crop shortages/monsoons will be very prominent because of climate change and Republicans are denying it. What environmental regulations do you think should be cut off, what are your opinions on the EPA, and how do you think this carbon tax would work?
Personally, why should corporate income taxes be zero? Also, corporations would just abuse that money if they weren't taxed. Notice how average people pay so much in taxes even tho the rate is like 35% which I think is fucked up cuz they have high ass salaries and bonuses while Americans have shity wage growth (minimum wage that is $8 is not enough.. it needs to be like $20). Think about it, high ass cost of living that is constantly on the rise while the minimum wage stays the same, how does that make any sense? Off people are broke and on welfare. If you don't want welfare traps and wanna get rid of welfare you need to pay people enough wages so they don't fall back to the safety net...
lvysaur · 1 points · Posted at 17:59:52 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
On Carbon tax-
A good example here would be the tale of the Chevy Cobalt. Obama mandated that all car manufacturers needed their total cars in production to average a minimum MPG. Chevy, who makes lots of trucks, had to start producing the Chevy Cobalt in response, which ended up being a massive failure.
Instead of coming up with some arbitrary MPG number, each car manufacturer could have been taxed relative to the carbon footprint of their product. Auto manufacturers already over the MPG line would have been incentivized to improve further, and Chevy wouldn't have made the Cobalt.
The very short explanation is corporate taxes discourage investing, which we want to encourage. There are other ways of taxing people that aren't economically inefficient.
This makes sense at first glance, but fails scrutiny. Problem is that when the minimum wage isn't in line with supply and demand, everyone loses. Businesses see less profit, consumers have to pay more, and workers lose on average when you factor in cut hours and lost jobs. Like tarriffs, the result is an overall loss of wealth.
The solution to guaranteeing basic standards of living without disrupting the market is redistribution through negative income tax.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:11:25 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
So how do you respond to the minimum wage idea? If the minimum wage isn't adjusted in some way then people literally do not have money to spend. If they don't have money they will resort to welfare. Do you think the minimum wage needs to be adjusted/increased to atleast $15 to insure spending?
Do you really believe that the negative income tax will solve the issue of getting people off welfare and ensuring that they can pay for healthcare, rent/utilities, and somehow university education?
Why?
And I agree with your carbon tax example, but I am confused: 1) what do you mean "relative to the footprint of their product?, 2) do you mean they'd be incentivized to improve because of the tax? In that case, why don't we increase certain taxes/put on certain regulations to make companies do certain things like move back manufacturing?
But in general, what is your overall/universal framework to combat climate change and reverse all the CO2 emissions before Earth goes to shit? The carbon tax sample for the car manufacturer was pretty specific.
lvysaur · 1 points · Posted at 20:36:04 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think a lot of your questions are stemming from not fully understanding negative income tax (NIT).
With normal tax, a portion of the money you make goes to the government, with the rate set in different brackets depending on how much.
NIT is similar, but while normal tax bottoms out at $0 paid to the government, NIT bottoms out at -$# paid to the government. This means if you make below a certain amount, the government will start paying you money.
By utilizing negative income tax, we don't need to rely on minimum wage to ensure a basic standard of living.
1) what do you mean "relative to the footprint of their product?
Carbon footprint is a term used to quantify the amount of carbon waste associated with the creation and use of a product.
Yes.
Forcing companies to move back is usually inefficient as it cuts off trade relations.
To heavily simplify, if I can make 10 computers and 2 shoes an hour, and Canada can make 2 computers and 10 shoes an hour, it's in both of our best interest that I specialize in making computers and Canada specializes in making shoes. On our own, it would take us each 6 hours to make 10 computers and 10 shoes. With trade and specialization, it would take us each only 2 hours.
Carbon tax is based on carbon footprint, which can be quantified and applied to nearly any industry - food, tech, manufacturing, etc.
Pencilowner · 2 points · Posted at 16:05:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
People expect to find jobs that they can zone out and do for 8hrs but those jobs are all taken by robots. The only way to find work is to do something no one else can do or be good enough with people that you find a place in customer service.
TheCastro · 3 points · Posted at 17:58:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's not true at all, you just have to be good at your office job.
shirtlessin1stclass · 1 points · Posted at 17:47:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Fact is, if things like fancy cell phones were made in the US, I wouldn't be able to afford the phone I'm typing this sentence on. An individual may drive an extra 10 minutes across town to save a couple bucks on something at Walmart, so we can't blame big corporations moving their manufacturing overseas to save Millions.
briaen · 5 points · Posted at 19:04:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Apple sells phones using supply and demand, not a percentage mark up. Do you really think it costs them $100 to add 32gig to the hard drive?
milkfactory · 1 points · Posted at 21:13:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Foxconn is building a plant in Wisconsin.
0bskurity · 1 points · Posted at 18:20:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I have nightmares about this every night.
Money_Bags97 · 1 points · Posted at 18:30:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Another thing is the state of the economy seems to immediately flip depending on whose in office.
I was listening to Hannity while riding in the car with my dad, and for the past 8 years he's been bitching about The Great Recession and record unemployment.
But now only 7 months into a Trump admin and now he's saying the economy is at an all time high, with record LOW unemployment.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:19:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It is kind of funny.
In some ways, the economy rebounded under Obama. The problem was the unemployment numbers were kind of 'cooked' (and still are). U-6 unemployment is artificial and has been since at least the Bush years (maybe forever; remember the Bush era "non-recovery, recovery"? :D). The only thing that Trump is really responsible for is the business outlook (which, itself, has probably helped a little bit). All that said, finding a job is absolutely the hardest thing in life at this point. I really feel for people who are putting in work/education and seeing little reward for it.
billFoldDog · 1 points · Posted at 19:08:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, but protectionism can slow the decline.
test_tickles · 1 points · Posted at 19:43:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not if it's more cost effective to have manufacturing jobs in the US...
PaleZombie · 1 points · Posted at 19:50:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This always bothered me. Isn't shoddy quality and cost of transport back and forth causing issues with this? Doesn't this just say the shareholders that you'd rather exploit a foreigner than high someone in your own country? I would think it would devalue a brand.
anachronic · 1 points · Posted at 19:53:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I agree.
Even if those jobs did "come back", prices at places like WalMart would skyrocket because instead of paying a guy in China 10 dollars a day to make a product, you're now paying a unionized American in an OSHA-compliant factory $45/hr+ (plus taxes & healthcare).
The reason so many Ameican jobs went to China is because American consumers pushed for it hard. They overwhelmingly bought cheaper imported products rather than more expensive American-made ones.
If there wasn't such incredible demand for cheaper products, companies wouldn't have offshored so much manufacturing to cheaper places.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:54:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's cheaper in places like China because they don't have the bureaucratic overhead like the states do. In china, you work with on an untested lathe with no safety equipment, and if the piece in the chuck goes flying out at 100mph and impales someone in the face, well too bad. Shouldn't have been standing there. Next worker.
In China they accept that because the alternative up until the past 2-3 decades was destitution.
In the US you will see people willing to revert to poorer working conditions as well if these jobs don't come back. And in chis you will see them clamoring for better worker rights until we g full circle aND the US and CHINA switch positions
silveraith · 1 points · Posted at 20:09:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But you can make jobs for fixing and maintaining the robots.
Holiday_in_Asgard · 1 points · Posted at 20:29:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The robots kill the jobs for good, yes, but workers overseas do not (in theory). The reason it is cheaper to build factories that build stuff overseas is because They don't have as strict of health and safety standards for factories, minimum wage laws, child labor laws, and unions to advocate for and protect workers. The simple reality is corporations have to treat US workers a lot better than workers overseas. So much so that it more than outweighs the cost of shipping all their product across the pacific ocean.
Some hear this and say "well its obvious that we need to get rid of labor unions and worker protections in the US in order to compete." Unfortunately, this is a complete pile of bullshit. Will it bring jobs back to the US? Yeah, but will it bring back the vanishing middle class? Fuck no. It would just move progress back over a century. Our living standards would match those of our overseas counterparts. Not cool. No one deserves to live like that.
Instead of competing with Southeast Asia et al. in a race to the bottom, we should force them to come to the top. Re-write trade agreements with other countries that stipulate that they must have some minimum level of worker protection on par with the US. That would not only bring back jobs to the US, but also raise living standards in those countries. The TPP was going to do some of this, but it had its other problems, not least of which was the lack of enforcement for this kind of worker protection. This kind of policy is called Fair Trade, and unlike Free Trade, it actually can bring about a truly global economy with fair practices for all. Remember this next time talks on international trade come up.
Global trade benefits everyone. I could spend another paragraph or two explaining the mathematics of it, but its easiest just to think about how difficult your life would be if everyone had to grow their own crops, mine and forge their own metal, and build their own cars. When we work together, everyone wins. It only works though if we are all on a level playing field, and if you really are interested in seeing everyone succeed, you should support fair trade policies.
datchilla · 1 points · Posted at 21:16:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But a big part of this is how things are made.
Let's say youre making an electronic that requires many untrained workers to put little pieces perfectly in the board before the machine solders it together. As it becomes less profitable to make those in the US do to labor, real estate, raw materials being more expensive you move to China where all those things are cheaper.
That is until a machine can make these electronics in a fraction of the time at a fraction of the cost of the original labor.
Now that job is coming back to the US because if something is machined then it's probably made in the US or Germany.
All jobs are not equal, and jobs leaving and coming back is an overly basic way of looking at job creation/loss.
Just my opinion
PoL0 · 1 points · Posted at 21:25:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't want to stop the robots. Automation is good. It makes life better.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 21:34:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The end-goal of automation just begs the question of why
dantepicante · 1 points · Posted at 17:23:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I suppose that's why Trump is trying to get better trade deals and make it economically viable to get working Americans their jobs back
parasoja · 5 points · Posted at 19:01:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
US manufacturing output is the highest it's ever been. Moving some output from china to the US won't bring back jobs, it will just mean we have more robots.
Even chinese factory workers are being replaced by robots.
[deleted] · -4 points · Posted at 19:15:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
lee61 · 4 points · Posted at 19:37:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
His point still holds consitancy.
Here is a good write up about it https://www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/us-manufacturing-past-and-potential-future-baily-bosworth.pdf .
parasoja · 3 points · Posted at 19:47:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not so good at thinking, huh?
Bureau of labor statistics
Federal reserve
LothartheDestroyer · 5 points · Posted at 19:38:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If it were economically viable Ford would hire 2300 Americans for that factory they're building.
Or they would have went ahead and went to Mexico and hired 2300 Mexicans.
Instead it's cheaper to hire 700 (Fords own projection to hire) Americans and automate the rest.
Relaxing the regulations had nothing to do with it. Trade deals had nothing to do with it.
It's simply because robots are cheaper than humans.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 11:59:34 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
[removed]
LothartheDestroyer · 1 points · Posted at 13:22:19 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
If the import tax was the issue Carrier wouldn't be shifting their shit down to Mexico (which they still did DESPITE Trumps measures). If it was Trumps stuff (which the Ford CEO has said it's not) then whatever.
But the fact remains it is, in the long run, cheaper to have automation (robots) than it is to shift away from America.
You know. You're right. We should celebrate the 700 jobs being created for this new factory.
But to dismiss the fact there used to be 1600 other jobs attached to that factory opening is...concerning.
And concerning your edit, -shrugs.- I believe in one of the old tenants of Conservatives. Government should most powerful at the local-est level it can be. Cities and Counties should hold the most power then work out differences to the next county. Build the strongest foundation possible and move 'upwards' from there to the State level. States rights, within the 'confines' of the constitution.
The Federal government should be the face to the world. And it should release guidelines for States.
As far as the rest? Tax cuts and tax breaks (and the loop holes within the Tax system) only hurt development. Kansas (which should be a Conservatives wet dream) is failing. Schools (and not all obviously) throughout the state are either not opening OR are opening later due to budget cuts. Education. The third most important thing for our youth after nutrition and health. And it's being strangled throughout all levels of government in a lot of states (and obviously Federally). Which baffles me.
Cuts to TANF and SNAP help no one. The bogey man Welfare Queen (and all the abuse to the system that comes with that statement) just simply doesn't exist in a large enough percentage to justify these cuts. That is to say, in states that implement these cuts (or drug testing to qualify or whatever hoop they make up to jump through) don't have an actual reason to deny people that need help beyond being cruel because every time they research welfare fraud it comes back as a negligible percentage if it's a percentage at all.
I can't think of one (beyond the one I mentioned) Conservative tenant that I would agree with.
But I do seek to understand how people don't see things like I do. Despite their post history.
NOT_A_SENTIENT_DILDO · 1 points · Posted at 18:37:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Are you basically advocating for slave labor? Because that's what that sounds like. I mean.... if someone told me to work in a factory for $1.50/day with 15-18 hour days I'd call them a fucking slave driver and do whatever I could to get out of the country where that's normal.
Not to mention the economic and SOCIAL repercussions of having a massive disposable and underpaid manufacturing underclass where the fruits of their labor... DON'T EVER EVEN SEE THEIR OWN COUNTRIES. We've seen how this works out before. And it IS PREVENTABLE.
Truly my friend, your entire comment is laughable. Manufacturing jobs are already coming back to America. And have been, for 7 months. Right now. At this very moment construction is being done on new manufacturing plants accross the country. If you had simply put any real effort into finding that information you would have.
How can you even say all that anyway? Do you have any clue how much gas we burn getting our cars here on boats and trucks? An clue how much better it is for the economy and the ENVIRONMENT to manufacture domestically?
And aside from ALL OF THAT. I guaruntee you a big fat "MADE IN USA" sticker would offset ANY costs incurred from paying real wages to americans. Instead of slave wages to a bunch of poor and disposable third world people. Idc if something is more expensive. If i see "made in usa" that's the one i choose. Never do i regret it and always i know I'm supporting the type of world i live in.
Tl;dr: Not only are you advocating for the acceptance and normalization of the damage we do to our planet, you are advocating for the acceptance and normalization of OUR USE of a foreign disposable labor force. Paid in such wages that 95% americans would probably call slavery if they had to endure one week of the work. You are advocating for the normalization and acceptance of the damage it does to the countries where those slaves exist. And you are advocating for the normalization and acceptance of the damage it does to your own country, by draining the lifeblood of our labor force; work. And you're doing it all despite the fact that all of this is being reversed in many ways.
The worst part? I think you don't know any of this. You just think things can't come back with a "wave of a magic wand." And that's your justification for all of this evil. Good job dude.
Edit: shit i forgot. "Plus automation" as if that's " just an afterthought. Make a machine that can maintain itself while manufacturing whatever you need it to. Automation is the one single thing that makes a factory line go from 1500 people to 400 people. You're absolutely correct. But it isn't an afterthought, because it certainly is inevitable.
But that doesn't have anything to do with your argument. So whatever.
lvysaur · 2 points · Posted at 20:13:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Support for global trade is highest in third world countries. Why? Because why you call "slave labor" is to them a massive upgrade over substinance farming and starving whenever the weather gets bad. Global trade has been the largest driving force in reducing global poverty.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 15:34:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
TreeBaron · 2 points · Posted at 16:11:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Why are you taking away the jobs of good redditors?
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 15:56:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Even if you live in Mexico!
sexy_bethany · -1 points · Posted at 17:19:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Hence why the plan is to tax foreign imports so it's cheaper to produce locally
droopyduder · 1 points · Posted at 20:12:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Cheaper relatively*. It would be more expensive than it is now.
industrythrowaway_ · 0 points · Posted at 17:19:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Part of that is needing to understand statistic too. Economics is a very fuzzy subject that relies on a solid grasp of statistics.
mandelflanders · -1 points · Posted at 15:51:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I, for one, welcome our new robot overlords!
[deleted] · 391 points · Posted at 15:01:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Affect VS Effect.
It effects me on a personal level.
Inbawx dudes.
asdsdfgsw52qafaff · 71 points · Posted at 16:09:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
i just made a new animation affect!
icanshitposttoo · 17 points · Posted at 17:17:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
/r/goddammitreddit
Modezio · 2 points · Posted at 18:45:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Very deeply inhales and recoils in shock
461weavile · 1 points · Posted at 20:19:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That animation must really love you
Spazmer · 8 points · Posted at 17:00:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Mine is there, their and they're. I can't take any adult seriously that doesn't understand the difference.
turtledave · 5 points · Posted at 18:19:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Mine is when people use that to refer to a person. I can't take any adult seriously who doesn't understand the difference.
Lehona · 4 points · Posted at 20:45:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I was always taught that "that" is fine for both objects and persons.
lIamachemist · 6 points · Posted at 18:07:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And then there's the verb effect, as in "she effected change." But one step at a time.
DontBeStupidYo · 15 points · Posted at 16:26:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well, that's not right at all LOL
OriginalName123123 · 18 points · Posted at 16:49:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
thatsthejoke.jpg
MeenaBeti · 9 points · Posted at 16:41:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's the joke
LightsaberMadeOfBees · 5 points · Posted at 17:54:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I still use a childish device to remember.
"The movie affected the aardvark"
"The attack affected the aardvark"
If it's an A, it's something affecting the aardvark.
Then you just remember anything not involving the A and the aardvark is a noun. Special Effect, Visual Effect etc.
Thanks Aardvark!
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 19:01:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Unless, of course, it effects a change, in which case we may be observing your affect in response to these unexpected edge cases.
LightsaberMadeOfBees · 6 points · Posted at 19:08:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Jokes on you, I'm a software engineer. We regularly ignore edge cases.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:21:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Also a programmer here. I don't ignore them, just manage to completely miss them from time to time ;)
CMAT17 · 1 points · Posted at 20:05:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Huh, I just call it a feature.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 20:09:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I see you've just recently pushed tag JobSecurityV1.1.388.2513 to production.
OnAKaiserRoll · 1 points · Posted at 19:41:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The effect that his affect effected affected her affetcs.
CourierOfTheWastes · 2 points · Posted at 18:30:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I was just listening to that new popular band "The Bystander Affect"
Honestly, we all knew it was misspelled, but none of us did anything about it.
TheMeiguoren · 2 points · Posted at 18:35:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So what you're saying is it affects your affect.
THR33ZAZ3S · 2 points · Posted at 18:38:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't like your effectation.
chaun2 · 2 points · Posted at 18:46:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Are you certain you aren't affecting the effect?
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:55:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
paid vs payed has been irritating me lately.
llunachick2319 · 2 points · Posted at 18:58:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Can't tell if serious...
SPACKlick · 2 points · Posted at 18:59:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Your post effected me to write this reply.
mango__reinhardt · 2 points · Posted at 19:02:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
to what effect?
Trogdorocks · 2 points · Posted at 19:04:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
To do what?
Imagine_Baggins · 2 points · Posted at 19:27:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well technically "effect" and "affect" both have noun and verb forms...
lionorderhead · 2 points · Posted at 19:33:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I fuck that one up all the time. Is there a trick to memorizing it?
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 23:28:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Pizzow.
Lotharofthepotatoppl · 2 points · Posted at 19:36:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Similarly, accept vs except. In a certain context, they actually mean the opposite of one another.
Gimgack · 2 points · Posted at 19:42:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Aeffect*
Yomoska · 2 points · Posted at 19:45:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I struggle with this and have tried really hard to learn but still can't seem to grasp it. I usually just Google similar sentences to see which one I have to use.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 23:28:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Boom.
Nicolozolo · 2 points · Posted at 19:46:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Same with accept and except.
Sybre · 2 points · Posted at 19:53:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This affected me greatly.
corrective_action · 2 points · Posted at 20:00:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
lol
elevatorbeat · 2 points · Posted at 20:03:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You can remember the difference with RAVEN:
Remember: Affect = Verb Effect = Noun
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 20:09:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This has no uffect on us when we're talking.
MailMeGuyFeet · 2 points · Posted at 20:31:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I never remember this, so I always use impact
Lesp00n · 2 points · Posted at 20:48:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A combination of a shitty rural school system and dyslexia I guess means no matter how hard I try I cannot remember which one is for which thing. I at least know they are different, but fuck if I can remember which way it goes.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 23:26:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Google teaches thee.
wealthybarberess · 2 points · Posted at 21:06:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Help me with this term! It is hard to me so I don't use it
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 23:27:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I was taught by my master. Google.
CraniumSwallower · 2 points · Posted at 21:34:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Die
superman654716 · 2 points · Posted at 21:52:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If I'm confused on which to use, I just use impact instead
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 23:25:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Affect is a verb
Effect is a noun
Effect is used after the fact, whereas affect is an action word
So "It effects me on a personal level" is incorrect.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 23:25:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Affect is a verb
Effect is a noun
Effect is used after the fact, whereas affect is an action word
So "It effects me on a personal level" is incorrect.
introspeck · 2 points · Posted at 22:26:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
His laziness will affect my ability to do my job.
His laziness had the effect of getting him fired.
His psychologist said he had constricted affect.
We need to effect major changes in our hiring policies.
danyaal99 · 1 points · Posted at 18:09:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I know someone who does this, but I don't want to be that arsehole who goes around correcting people's grammar. So I have to put up with the irritation.
carriegood · 2 points · Posted at 18:59:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
grammar.
(teehee)
danyaal99 · 1 points · Posted at 19:01:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
😂 oh, the irony!
GhostofJeffGoldblum · 1 points · Posted at 16:43:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But does it make you effect an affect?
RiotShields · 2 points · Posted at 16:48:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No. But it can make me affect an effect.
CatNigga · 0 points · Posted at 17:03:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Aaaaaaagh!!! It's really annoying when these are confused. I'm like bruh... my students know better man. Dude...
TrashPandaBros · 763 points · Posted at 14:49:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Healthy people don't understand that when you're chronically sick and miserable for most of your life, you're willing to throw whatever you have at even a possibility of feeling better. It's not that your friend or family member is suddenly really stupid. They know it's probably snakeoil and probably not going to help, but when you live every day in hell and have to keep a smile on your face no price is too high.
And yes, you have to fucking keep a smile on your face and pretend that things are okay, because if you don't, you'll fucking kill yourself. Either by falling into suicidal depression or just allowing the misery to make you weaker and weaker until you can no longer keep yourself alive through any force of will.
People with chronic illness are 100% pretending to be okay when you see them. They're not. They're sick. They're miserable. The only reason they pretend is that acting as poorly as you feel is depressing and debilitating and it's the only part of their life they can control. Literally the only thing they can do to help their condition is follow doctors' orders and pretend to be happy.
So yes. They will jump at and cling to the snakeoil because it's something they can actually do that might help, even if it probably won't. (And the placebo effect can't be underestimated either. Remember, it can work even if you know it's a placebo.)
Edit: This isn't asserting that everyone with a chronic illness (not even most people) feel this way or do this thing. I just want to help spread understanding to those close to someone who does.
LentilEater · 237 points · Posted at 15:51:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
every time i go to the pharmacy (which is way too much).. "hi how are you?" "... good, you?"
i come so much that you know me by name, you see my meds, you see the multiple specialists writing the scripts, you see them going through different variations trying to nail down the problems with no help, insurance rejecting newer expensive meds, you see me shedding healthy weight/muscle and being pale and gaunt looking. im doing horrible, but thank you anyway :)
theyre so nice, everyone, but i hate trying to pretend. not like im just gonna unload a rant on some poor tech or pharmacist though. their jobs are already stressful enough
TrashPandaBros · 187 points · Posted at 15:56:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My in laws are some of the best people in the world. Two years ago, or so, some aunt or cousin or something complimented me on losing weight. I told them it was because of my poor health, not because I was trying to lose weight. Ever since, not a single member of that family asks "How are you?" They ask "How's your condition?" or similar.
Whomever it was I told, spread word to the others and now they're all extremely compassionate about my sickness and honestly, just having the one person remember would be overwhelming on its own, but the entire family is in on this conspiracy to support me in my illness.
MozzieRella · 16 points · Posted at 17:56:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's so brilliant and I'm so glad you have that. It makes it much easier to have support
Jaredismyname · 9 points · Posted at 18:17:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I am glad that whomever spread the word was able to make such a difference for you. My wife has a chronic condition but unfortunately doesn't get the understanding from her family.
TrashPandaBros · 8 points · Posted at 18:20:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Despite taking me to the ER several times, my own family thinks I'm full of shit. I am very thankful for my in-laws. They're wonderful people.
LentilEater · 5 points · Posted at 18:28:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
it sounds like you have a close family and support system. im kind of jealous. i deal with things the opposite way, by isolating myself and pretending things arent so bad. though ive reached the point where its impossible to hide.
i went from getting constant "wow you look great" compliments from people i havent seen for a while, after getting heavy into working out and putting on 20 pounds of muscle, to now "wow.. what happened man!?" after losing almost 40 pounds in about 6 months.
do you ever get overwhelmed by people supporting you? i didnt have the best childhood/family life and kind of had to deal with things on my own. so now ive sort of (unfortunately) put that into practice in my adult life and i can say its not working out so well. the majority of posts i type on here, i delete before i submit, or just seconds after because i imagine the responses and get overwhelmed just thinking about it
TrashPandaBros · 5 points · Posted at 18:35:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I do struggle with people being "too helpful." My husband is disgustingly healthy and always has been, so when he sees that I'm out in a bad way, he bends over backwards to do things for me. The problem is that this makes me feel helpless, as if I can't do anything for myself anymore. I feel like I'm losing my agency, but I also feel like I can't complain because I do need help sometimes.
It requires a lot of communication and it's something we have to revisit fairly often because when I have 10 days straight of all bad days we get into the habit of him doing everything for me which is bad for both of us.
I also run into the issue of people feeling like they can't complain to me when they feel shitty. "Oh trashpandabros, I was really sick, but I didn't want to bother you because you have it so much worse."
Look, what I can do is very limited, but that just means I want to do more of. If I can help when you're sick, please let me. My pain doesn't lessen yours in any way and everyone needs a hand sometimes.
I hope you can build a support system because I know how difficult it is to try and cope on your own.
LentilEater · 3 points · Posted at 19:01:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
thats exactly how i feel, like i cant do anything for myself and that as long as i fake it, maybe its not true. then of course getting caught up in dwelling on how things used to be and comparing myself to that. i also get the guilty feeling when someone helps me too much, like you describe with your husband
the same thing you mention about others feeling like they cant complain to you, because you have it worse, is the same way i feel and im sure you probably feel as well sometimes. i get caught up in that "well... x y or z is worse so i should just suck it up", but thats stupid.
being able to help someone or be there for them is a great feeling, especially when you know how it feels when the shoe is on the other foot. when i see people having meaningful, supportive conversations, even online like the smaller subforums, i get a bit jealous. this is one of the few times ive ever even remotely opened up even on an anonymous forum. thanks for the replies
TrashPandaBros · 2 points · Posted at 19:10:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Any time, dude.
I know the struggle. If someone brings up my condition, I usually just say something like "Oh, it's the same as it's been, but how are you doing?" If you interact with people rather regularly, you kind of have to prod them into admitting when they're having a rough time and after you ask enough they'll get into the habit of telling you.
People that push aside their own illnesses because "you have it worse" will usually remember that you're sick and will be understanding when you do eventually have to bow out of helping them with whatever, so you don't really lose anything by training them to see you as a resource. It sucks the lengths we have to go to in order to have a normal friendship sometimes, but it is what it is. We can deal with it or complain.
Sanctimonius · 4 points · Posted at 21:15:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's really fucking awesome. How's your condition?
TrashPandaBros · 3 points · Posted at 21:19:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's deteriorated a little. I've been putting off seeing a specialist because the way it's deteriorated suggests I am much worse off than originally thought. I really really need to go, but I also know there's not really anything the doctors can do if it is the worse thing, so I guess I'd rather stay in limbo, even though I know it's the wrong choice :(
I just gotta buck up the courage and go.
Sanctimonius · 3 points · Posted at 23:28:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Speaking as a person not in chronic pain, across the intertoobs, I tend to prefer to know these things. It's easy to put things off but it tends to hang over me, and usually not knowing is itself half of the stress. It sucks that you have this to deal with but it's great that it sounds like you have a great support network.
TrashPandaBros · 3 points · Posted at 00:21:46 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I was diagnosed with condition x. It has a lot of overlap with condition y that is much worse. I've been showing symptoms that fit y but not x. My grandfather had condition y and suffered greatly. The last thing he ever said to me was that condition y was going to make him kill himself because it wasn't worth living like that anymore. And he'd already survived lung cancer at that point, so it really hit me hard.
:(
DontBeStupidYo · 53 points · Posted at 16:09:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just say, "Feeling kind of rough, how are you?". Yes, they're asking to be polite and traditional, but there's nothing wrong with answering truthfully, especially when the response is still pretty tame. I'm not even sick and I answer truthfully, and people accept my response. They respond with any of the following responses: that they hope everything gets better, ask me what's wrong, or commiserate with me.
[deleted] · 7 points · Posted at 17:39:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It gets old, and people see you as negative or a debbie downer if you are honest. Everyone starts ignoring you pretending you're not there.
nononowaitok · 3 points · Posted at 18:37:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
not at the pharmacy, I love it when people tell me they are sick. It's like getting a shot of realness. The honestly feels so good, I feel like I am being treated like another human with real feelings and in turn will treat you like another human with real feelings.
LentilEater · 2 points · Posted at 19:10:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
this is what i know is true, but for some reason convince myself otherwise
they must get sick of all the "good, you?"'s all day long. they know damn well everyone isnt good, its not possible.
i almost feel like im lying (well i am) to them and denying us both a good interaction that we could possibly both appreciate
LentilEater · 1 points · Posted at 19:07:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
this is how i feel a lot of times, but i dont think its true for everyone. i think thats mostly in my head, especially when in regards to someone working in healthcare asking
though i do agree, for some people, that is true. some people definitely drift away when youre always down and not doing well with one thing or another. i dont hold it against them, i dont think theyre all bad or whatever, some people just dont know hwo to deal with it or maybe have issues of their own and can only handle so much bad.
but yeah, definitely lost some relationships over the years. oh well
[deleted] · 4 points · Posted at 19:19:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My mom and dad flat out ignored me and pretended I wasn't living with them, when I lost my eyesight. Felt like a burden, just wanted to die. Was constantly ridiculed because of the fact I couldn't see. Really showed me where the line where my family was there for me. It hurts when you lose friends because you can't do everything you used to, but it hurts more when it's family. I couldn't talk about how I was feeling because even though I thought I was going to die (and at the point I was just like, get this over with and kill me) I had to put on the happy face just to have some company. I'm in a better situation now its just one of those things in life that change you.
LentilEater · 1 points · Posted at 19:42:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
jesus im sorry you had to go through that, no one deserves that, especially from family. im glad to hear you are doing better than you were. i cant relate from the family side, though the only family i really have is my dad (im not close with my brother or sister really, mostly my fault) but i can relate from the standpoint of friends. i opened up to one almost 2 years ago and told him about 2 of the issues that ruined my health, mentally and physically, one of which could have killed me, he pretended to care, offered me a job when i was ready and then disappeared. never heard from him again. lives ~10 miles from me. good riddance though. hang in there dude
Pixiefoxcreature · 2 points · Posted at 20:59:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah. One of my friend groups ghosted me when and after I got hospitalised. Apparently I was not fun anymore.
LentilEater · 2 points · Posted at 19:05:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
sometimes i contemplate being a bit more.. honest, and then just retreat back to the "good, you?". i laughed at myself for how dumb it is when i type it out like that.
i mean we both know that "good, you?" is an automated response, and that i wouldnt be there (dr's office, pharmacy, hospital etc) if that answer were true .. but i give it to them anyway
eclectique · 6 points · Posted at 16:40:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think, probably these people are doing it out of tradition. However, I have definitely asked an ill person how they are or what they've been up to, because I know physically you are not well, but you are more than your illness... so I want to give you the opening to talk if you want it.
Is there a better way of doing this?
LentilEater · 2 points · Posted at 18:21:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
i honestly think im the weird one in the situation more than anything. everyone has been so nice along the way, from nurses, techs, assistants, pharmacy people etc. i know they genuinely care and they are opening the door for friendly conversation, but im just sort of..guarded i guess. also the isolation ive imposed on myself as a result of some of these physical health problems has not helped. its been a huge blow to my self esteem, even just from the way i look now, which i never struggled with in my entire life.
im afraid to say anything other than "good, you?" out of fear of seeming like im fishing for sympathy - though i know thats all in my head and no one would think i am. this is the same reason im afraid to even post on support forums for various problems.
i dont think there is a better way to approach it, i think that im the problem and wish i could just kind of open up a bit to people. my dad is the only one that knows the extent of what ive been going through and he doesnt tell anyone because hes a lot like me.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 17:37:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I was a pharmacy tech and I have a chronic illness too. I was there to see what my options were, and I don't mind talking about your illness. I understand. I might look peppy and nice, but I'm dying inside.
LentilEater · 3 points · Posted at 18:41:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
how are you? :)
thats what i think a lot of customers/patients forget. theres a good chance that a lot of the people working behind the counter of pharmacies, doctors offices etc, also have health problems, mental and/or physical. if they could keep this in mind, maybe everyone would be just a little bit nicer.
JoffreysDyingBreath · 3 points · Posted at 18:00:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Am in retail pharmacy. Its okay if you're not okay. You can tell me everything that's bothering you. I say I'm okay too, but I'm not either. Were all just human, and if you need a moment of genuine human connection, you would be surprised how much we understand.
LentilEater · 1 points · Posted at 18:52:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
thanks, that was really nice
i put all the blame on myself. im way too guarded and feel like i have to pretend im doing fine, even though its obvious im not. thats something i need to change.
draginator · 3 points · Posted at 17:43:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Hey, just letting you know I work in a pharmacy and when we ask that question to our regulars we are genuinely asking. The pharmacist is pretty smart and can usually make suggestions to improve quality of life, or different medication to suggest to the doctor.
It might be different elsewhere, but we are the only pharmacy in a very small farming town so we know almost everybody and they actually tell us what is going on (the good and the bad).
LentilEater · 1 points · Posted at 18:47:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
part of me knows that what youre saying is 100% true, but the dumber part of me tells me that they dont care and theyre just going through the motions and im a burden to everyone serving me. thats the mental health side of things lying to me though.
sometimes they ask if i have any questions for the pharmacist and i'll say no (feeling like a burden as usual) even though i had a question before i even went in to pickup my script. stupid stuff
i live in a pretty populated area and use walmart so they have a ton of customers, but i usually show up an hour before close, or less. one of the techs told me a couple visits ago that she remembers my name because im always so pleasant and its a nice change compared to some of the other customers. that really made my day
the whole process still gives me anxiety and i hate when theres a line of people behind me while im trying to get my prescriptions and one respects anyones privacy, despite the signs and the techs telling people to wait behind the BIG RED LINE painted on the floor.
terra_ray · 2 points · Posted at 18:12:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Can confirm. Walked in to see the same tech I got refills from last week. Fatigue level high, pain level hovering around a 7, having to go back on corticosteroids because it's the only option to get back to work. The kind gentleman asks how I am. I calmly say, "I've been better. Autoimmune's a bitch." And smile.
Turningpoint43 · 2 points · Posted at 20:26:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Slightly off topic, but I just moved and had to leave the pharmacy I went to for 4 years. So sad leaving the techs that knew me by name
how_about_no__ · 3 points · Posted at 17:23:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Hey stranger! As a pharmacy cashier, I assure you your situation is not as uncommon as you may feel. (Not trying to diminish your problems at all, it's just that we won't treat you any differently.) It's not like I'm annoyed with you for coming to get your medicine. It's literally my job to help you. And as someone who's struggled with clinical depression and anxiety, and has tried my own handful of medication over the years, I'll offer sympathy as best I can. (Even though I know sometimes it means fuck all.) I understand if you don't want to tell me your life story or explain why you're feeling off, because I get that.
But please don't feel like you're a burden. Interacting with people going through tough times and from all walks of life is a very rewarding part of my work, personally.
And just to let you know, most pharmacies have a slightly different program/mode for the pick-up, where they can't see your full file. Just the prescriptions that are ready. Even if yours doesn't have that, please don't worry about having a long history and many doctors and shitty insurance, it's all par for the course. No professional will judge you for that. It's what we deal with everyday.
Also I don't really mind you "ranting" about that kind of stuff, as long as you're respectful to me and aren't holding up the line or anything.
I'm sorry I didn't mean to lecture you at all, or even type this much in the first place, just wanted to share my perspective.
Thank you for trying to take care of yourself.
LentilEater · 2 points · Posted at 18:39:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
just seeing the way some people treat the techs at the register makes me kind of sick. i dont understand why so many people want to make things worse by being negative to people just trying to help or doing their job. though i normally go within the last hour before close, to avoid lines and people hovering over my shoulder while im trying to pickup my scripts.
the mental health problems came shortly after (or got a lot worse) the physical health problems. a couple of the techs are so nice and i see them a couple times a week for the last almost 2 years now and i just want to have more than the "good, you?" conversation with them, but i just.. cant do it.
i do feel like a burden and i dont know why. i feel the same way at doctors appointments, tests, procedures or whatever. i have 3 different specialists writing prescriptions, some are changing every other month, theyre calling doctors and insurance for me, calling me to let me know its been denied etc. i know theyre getting paid and probably enjoy helping people, but i dont know why i still feel like a burden. my insurance sucks and i just hate that they have to do extra work because of it.
thanks for the post and thanks for caring about the patients and having an understanding of how some people feel. you read my mind on some of those points, especially the part about feeling like a burden, i never thought of it like that, but thats exactly how i feel every time i go.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:54:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I hate this common greeting. so. much.
CaptainObvious_1 · 1 points · Posted at 18:27:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What are you suffering from?
LentilEater · 1 points · Posted at 19:14:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
you know i cant answer that
partially because its personal, but also because i dont want to start a contest. no one does. they just want to be normal. thats why i never open up about personal problems. not saying its the right way to deal with it, but thats how i am
bobbyloujo · 12 points · Posted at 15:41:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That is an interesting perspective
TrashPandaBros · 6 points · Posted at 15:45:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Human brains are very bad at dealing with "something really bad is happening and there's nothing I can do." Doing nothing creates a great deal of stress and mental/emotional strain. Yes, they know it's probably not going to make the illness better, but being proactive, even in a useless direction, makes them feel mentally/emotionally a little better.
capoonbroa · 6 points · Posted at 18:11:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Thank you so much! I've been suffering from chronic pain for about 9 years (I'm 23). I'm extremely tired of pretending but any other option is even worse. Pretending is really hard for me and sometimes I feel really lost but after sharing or complaining I feel terrible, I perceive myself as a burden, I worry that people will think unfavourably about me. After all, nobody likes complainers or people who are serious all the time. It makes socializing really hard, because I'm dying inside, my back hurts so bad I cannot eat or breathe without problems, yet everyone expects me to be happy and smiley. In my case, even my sister said that she doesn't want to hear my complaints, so I have to pretend whenever we meet or speak. It sucks because at the end of the day, no matter how supporting your close ones are, every chronically ill person is alone in pain, despair, suffering and hopelessness. I try really hard to think positively but I cannot ignore sharp pain and constant fatigue. My perception is probably flawed but I really lack any motivation to do anything, to live. That's why your post is very important to me and I think you've managed to describe reality very accurately.
TrashPandaBros · 3 points · Posted at 18:29:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You're welcome. Chronic illness is a third person in any relationship, familial, friendship, romantic or otherwise. My husband went to see a therapist when we got together so he could get tips and advice on how to cope with my illness and how to live with me without constantly feeling the crushing weight of it.
It took a long time for me to come to terms with my condition and the limitations of medicine right now and when I feel frustrated and helpless, I still take a step back and remind myself of the facts.
I wish I had some magic words to tell you to make it easier to cope with, but sadly that's not the world we live in. The best I can do is tell you one of the strategies I use. I have knitting and colouring books for adults as meditative hobbies that help me focus on something other than my sickness as well as relax because stress makes everything feel worse.
I hope you have good doctors that are working with you despite not having answers.
capoonbroa · 2 points · Posted at 20:12:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I've never perceived my illness as a third person but you're absolutely right, it does indeed feel like that. I'm not in any romantic relationship right now but in the future I'll certainly look at it from this perspective. I'm glad you went through some kind of counseling and that you have support.
Your strategies are great! I like them too, in case of knitting you can also make something useful, so it certainly helps to feel better. Sometimes I draw mandalas or doodle, basically anything just to keep my mind occupied. I'm working on being less concerned with my condition. Even though it's hard, I try to see the positive sides of my life and I believe that it'll make me a better person. Sometimes I think I may be too young or not mature enough and some realizations will come with time.
I'm really grateful for your kind and wise words. Your comments really helped me and I wish you a lot of strength.
TrashPandaBros · 2 points · Posted at 20:17:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You're very welcome and thank you.
My last piece of advice for you is to document how you're feeling two or three times a day. It sounds like your condition flares up at times and in my experience, if I go to the doctor on a good day, I say things have been feeling better, even if the actual trend is the opposite (and the reverse if I go on a bad day, obviously) and you'll get the most out of your doctor visits if you have more objective information about your condition and how medication/lifestyle changes/stressors/etc are affecting you.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 17:40:45 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
capoonbroa · 2 points · Posted at 19:30:33 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
You're welcome. I'm so sorry that you have similar problems.
The more I think about this, the more I realize that this is a vicious cycle and I can totally understand the connection between chronic illness and mental disorders. The mix of pretending, suffering and guilt is sometimes too much to handle. Everyone says: "just be yourself" but in our case it's not socially acceptable. It's also tricky to be self-confident, fun and interesting while being miserable for most of the day.
At this point, I've adapted this happy, carefree attitude to such an extent I wasn't able to open up to my therapist without smiling like an idiot. It's great that you have people you can talk to and I hope you'll get all the support you need. If you feel bad about sharing with family and friends maybe try to find a support group or a good therapist?
It's really hard to say something new or wise about the situation. Close relationships should be built on trust and support but no family member or friend is obliged to care as much as we do. To be completely honest, sometimes I'm really angry because my family has the right to be tired of my bullshit, yet I'm expected to endure my pain, side effects, fatigue and mental issues patiently and silently. That's not fair.
Recently I've been looking for some ways to feel better. Writing a journal and meditation are my two personal faves. Meditation is incredibly relaxing and helps with clearing one's mind. I hope you'll find something that will make you happier.
[deleted] · 12 points · Posted at 17:04:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yep, I've heard
My response to these
cgi_bin_laden · 4 points · Posted at 23:21:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
As someone's who had to deal with depression for decades, this one probably makes me the angriest.
TrashPandaBros · 2 points · Posted at 17:15:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I was confused by your comment at first, but I get it now. I was talking more specifically about chronic conditions unrelated to mental health (autoimmune conditions, chronic pain from a past injury and even cancers that are killing you particularly slowly, though still killing you nonetheless), but it definitely applies to clinical depression and other mental health issues, too.
As I've said in other comments, humans brains are pretty shitty and they're not good at accepting 'there's nothing you can do,' which hurts the people suffering from conditions and makes it more difficult for healthy people to understand. Their squishy organic brains just can't grasp that a different squishy organic brain needs outside chemicals to function properly.
I hope you have a support network and are working to feel better.
flat5 · 7 points · Posted at 17:12:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yep. I was a medical pseudo-science crusader, until I developed a chronic back pain problem, for which "real science" basically has zero good answers.
So, I'm willing to throw $50 at an acupuncturist or chiropractor now. Yes, I realize it probably won't help. Yes, I realize the practitioner is probably preying on a desperate person. But I don't care. It might help.
TrashPandaBros · 6 points · Posted at 17:18:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you have really good health insurance, I suggest seeing if you can get massages partially or fully covered. (I know some plans do cover this for pain AND stress AND anxiety) If not, maybe see if there's a massage therapy school near you to get cheap-ish student massages. It doesn't take away the pain, but it makes most of the rest of you feel better.
flat5 · 4 points · Posted at 17:27:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Thanks. I will try it.
Wholesome_Linux · 4 points · Posted at 17:01:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
i'm looking over a counter of failed products that promised to make me feel better and all of the money i wasted and you're right - I knew none of these snakeoils would work but i bought them anyway just to feel like there's a chance
TrashPandaBros · 3 points · Posted at 17:06:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I have a chronic pain condition and I would pop aspirin on the regular (well below "maximum dosage" levels. Think one or two a day), but since my problem is autoimmune and my immune system is in the shitter, I'm now deathly allergic to all NSAIDs. Yay.
So I don't touch the snakeoil anymore.
(I don't know how common developing an allergy like that is, but my allergist wasn't surprised.)
EvilMonkeyMimic · 5 points · Posted at 18:26:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Meh. I just kind of stopped caring about feeling like shit constantly. Maybe it's a tolerance for pain or something, but for me at least, its not so bad.
That said, I have to take like fucking 16 different meds per day, and that shit eats a hole in my pocket every month. It would suck less if I didn't have to pay for suffering. -.-
TrashPandaBros · 2 points · Posted at 18:37:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's definitely not ubiquitous. People with random and/or unpredictable flare ups have it worse because you can't "get used to" something that's only there sometimes. It also very much depends on whether or not they have a support system in place and countless other factors.
EvilMonkeyMimic · 3 points · Posted at 18:43:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
True. Thats probably worse honestly. At least I know im going to feel shitty.
TrashPandaBros · 2 points · Posted at 18:45:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm glad you've been able to acclimate. My post is more about trying to help people understand the irrational behavior that can stem from a chronic illness rather than asserting that a chronic illness will create these behaviors.
EvilMonkeyMimic · 2 points · Posted at 19:15:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah. I just like commenting
Pixiefoxcreature · 3 points · Posted at 21:21:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Bingo. It's driving me absolutely nuts, and the worst part is the lack of control and predictability. I tried being "perfect" with my diet and lifestyle, in a desperate and miserable attempt to bargain with my body, but I still got flares and suffered. So now I focus on trying to maximise my quality of life and doing what feels good. But I still suffer. I feel trapped in my body, I feel terrified of the future and inevitable gristly death that awaits. It feels like I am swimming in a lake of shit with no shore in sight. Sure, there are occasional diamonds, but fuck, it's still a lake of shit and I will eventually drown. I'm so tired of swimming and just want to have some dignity in how it ends.:(
TrashPandaBros · 1 points · Posted at 21:24:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm sorry, man. That really sucks.
TheRealHooks · 13 points · Posted at 15:35:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I can't tell if you're saying that chronically sick/miserable people don't understand how to evaluate the effectiveness of a cure or remedy, or if you're saying people who are not chronically ill/miserable don't understand the mentality of people who are.
TrashPandaBros · 33 points · Posted at 15:42:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
People who are not sick don't understand the mentality.
Though the chronically ill can definitely lose sight of what is/isn't effective. I've heard countless different conspiracy theories about the origins of my condition (the most baffling said it was caused by fluoridated water), about how there is a cure but [insert here] is hiding it and obviously the infinite bullshit "cures."
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 17:39:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Hey you got MS too huh?
TrashPandaBros · 1 points · Posted at 17:43:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No, thankfully, what I have is less severe. I have a poor quality of life, but I'm not expected to have a shorter life span or to be permanently crippled, which I believe are possible with MS? Sorry, I don't know much about it. I try not to go looking for trouble, since my official diagnosis gets hazy and it is autoimmune.
[deleted] · 4 points · Posted at 17:49:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's all good. I'm only expected to have maybe 5 less years than most, but the possibility of being wheelchair bound is pretty high. Honestly I don't really care too much anymore (thanks medication!!) but if I do I'm totally decking out my hover round with some flames/racing stripes because... you know... it makes you go faster.
TrashPandaBros · 1 points · Posted at 17:53:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Totally does. Also opens up some pretty cool cosplay.
ZeldaZealot · 2 points · Posted at 17:59:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is 100% accurate. My sister has one of the best grasps of scientific evaluation and knowledge of biology of everyone I know, but she still fell for the essential oil charade when she was diagnosed with a chronic illness. Now she runs a Facebook group dedicated to finding essential oils that will help with just about anything(nothing) in the hope that one of them will help her not feel like shit five days out of the week.
xammy0 · 3 points · Posted at 18:05:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I live with chronic pain and sickness. Can confirm. Edit: live, not love.
zombiefarnz · 3 points · Posted at 18:08:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I so do totally agree and thank you for such an eloquent explanation. I have several aches, pains, and general crappy feelings going on all the time and I just have to smile. It gets tough.
TrashPandaBros · 4 points · Posted at 18:11:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I run into the chronic illness paradox. I want people to know and acknowledge that I'm sick and that means I have limitations, but at the same time I don't want to act or look sick because that's just depressing.
I wish you many days of minor symptoms.
zombiefarnz · 3 points · Posted at 18:48:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Right back 'atcha:)
Yes the whole idea of looking and acting the way I REALLY feel isn't all the fun an idea to me either. But sometimes I wish people would just say "Oh she's just having a rough day" and not "She's lazy". Most people I know know what's going on, but I also worry they just don't realise how serious it is because I've always got ny "brave face" on. My dad once said that we all have our own cross to bear, and this is just mine. Although I'd never wish this on anyone, kinda helps to ease the pain knowing I'm not alone.
Yossi25 · 3 points · Posted at 18:55:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Having and knowing people with tinnitus, we really have tried just about everything.
TrashPandaBros · 1 points · Posted at 18:57:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oh god, tinnitis is one of my worst fears v___v I love music so much. I'm really thankful I always listened to music very quietly on my headphones as a kid.
cant_think_of_one_ · 3 points · Posted at 20:18:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This applies to depression much of the time.
When I first started to tell people I was suffering from depression, people said that I didn't seem depressed. Someone said this who I had cancelled four of the five previous times we had been due to meet, either individually or in a group. You don't see people at their worst, you only see them at their best, pretending to be better than they are. Even if you ask them to honestly tell you what it is like, it is not something that can be put into words and, they probably don't want to tell you if they are having suicidal thoughts or self harming.
I was at a course about mental health recently and people were really shocked at the idea that someone might cut themselves because the pain is a relief from how they are feeling. That is why I did it briefly (before moving on to something else that I could do that caused me more pain with less messy injury when I found the hassle of trying to get my arm to stop bleeding all the time too much).
TrashPandaBros · 2 points · Posted at 20:24:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
People always assume others are more similar to them than they really are.
mu_on · 3 points · Posted at 17:52:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Likewise, most people would be surprised at how well the body heals itself when (and this doesn't apply to the most severe cases obviously): A) you stop thinking doctors can save you B) you stop worrying C) you don't force a timeframe for getting better. I have had multiple types of chronic pain that have finally gone away for the most part simply from giving up on doctors and just not worrying. The body is far more intelligent than we are it seems.
TrashPandaBros · 3 points · Posted at 17:56:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think it's important to continue to see doctors, even if you're not stressing/worrying yourself about it. Modern medicine doesn't have enough information on chronic pain and your relief could be an important data point that contributes to another person feeling better quicker.
But dwelling on your chronic pain is definitely (at the very least) very highly correlated with feeling pain more acutely.
mu_on · 2 points · Posted at 18:05:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My biggest problem is that EVEN WHEN doctors don't have the answers, they pull one out of a hat. Because that's how they get paid. And a lot of times that causes more harm than it fixes. This is another thing most people don't understand, actually.
TrashPandaBros · 1 points · Posted at 18:08:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Wow, I'm sorry you had to deal with that. My specialists absolutely just send me home with no answers and no new medication most of the time. I go in, answer a ton of questions, get poked and tested and then sent home. No wonder you stopped going in that case.
mu_on · 1 points · Posted at 18:38:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Usually it's "try this medicine!". When it doesn't work.. "I can't help you so go to this specialist", "Ok, I'm the specialist, now let's do all these tests"... thousands of dollars later... "Hmm, not seeing anything that could cause it. Let's do some more tests" "found something, could be related to pain, surgery might fix this!" Has surgery, isn't better... then they say "not sure, why don't you try acupuncture then get back with me".
The whole healthcare industry is built on peoples impatience and ignorance of their own bodies. I'd say for the vast majority of cases that people go to the doctor, the body will heal itself if just left alone, though it may take time. But our society doesn't allow us to take rests, so we pop some pills and go to work. I also don't believe in pseudo-science. I'm just saying this science as we know it is more "pseudo" and ineffective than we tend to realize. It's not apparent, because it's an all-pervasive industry that can handle anything. ANY pain and people immediately say, "go to the doctor"
TrashPandaBros · 1 points · Posted at 18:39:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, a lot of people fall into the trap of believing medicine has an answer to everything. Shitty monkey brains, man.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:10:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I guess I am weird because I have been chronically sick for my entire life and I never considered this. The most I would be willing to do is go to Europe since they have may have different procedures not yet approved here in the US. But I would never defect to pseudo medical bs because it could make the problem worse.
TrashPandaBros · 1 points · Posted at 19:15:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't think it's weird. There are a lot of factors that lead to it. Because of how I'm sick, I am extremely aware of how dangerous it is for me to try pseudo-medication since OTC meds have already shown themselves to be deadly.
I've done yoga and massage therapy and a variety of normal-ish diets (just stuff like replacing white bread with wheat and white rice with brown, etc, etc) and they made me feel better, but just because I was healthier/more relaxed in general.
I just think it's important to understand how some people can fall into these traps because otherwise how can you help them out? You can't logic someone out of a belief they didn't logic themselves into, after all. So you have to address the issues that lead to that belief.
dannixxphantom · 2 points · Posted at 19:26:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The placebo effect is real. My bf has GERD and it's bad. Anxiety makes it worse, and wouldn't you know that getting sick makes him anxious? It's a vicious cycle. I once gave him some dissolvable pill for gas and told him it was for nausea. It works a lot of the time, and it won't make anything worse for him, healthwise. I know it's wrong, but I just want him to be okay. I think he knows now, but its still working so his doctor wrote him a prescription.
TrashPandaBros · 1 points · Posted at 19:28:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ugh, yeah, I have that same vicious cycle of stressed because I'm sick, sicker because I'm stressed.
I fill in adult colouring books as one of my techniques for managing anxiety. It's way more effective than you'd think. Maybe he can give it a try.
dannixxphantom · 2 points · Posted at 19:31:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
His problem is waking up with it. I grind my teeth in my sleep, he apparently is so anxious his body is just waiting for him to wake up so it can puke. We've tried a lot of different things to reduce stress, but living long distance, while working and attending college makes it tough to even get a daily schedule set. Thank you for the suggestion, though, I'll look into it!
TrashPandaBros · 2 points · Posted at 19:34:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ugh that is rough! And you're absolutely right, having a variable sleep schedule is definitely piling on the stress. Hopefully things calm down a bit and he can get on a regular schedule in addition to other things. I wish you guys the best.
dannixxphantom · 2 points · Posted at 19:41:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
For now, I'm focused on him maintaining his weight, and hopefully putting more on (he dropped 35lbs he couldn't afford before he got diagnosed) until we graduate. Once were able to live together, his health improving is going to be a main goal, whether he likes it or not!
asdsdfgsw52qafaff · 2 points · Posted at 15:54:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is why you should see what people do, not what they say
In other words, look at drug addiction statistics and other stats, that's how you know how happy people are, not by how they act in front of you
ok my analogy isn't great but u get the point
JohniiMagii · 1 points · Posted at 20:15:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you have a chronic illness and feel this way, or know someone who does, please seek psychiatric help.
As someone who has had crippling chronic pain for seven years, I can say this is not, and should not be, true. If it is for you, that's okay. That's understandable, and it is not your fault, but you need to look for help with feeling depressed.
Despite pain or suffering, you can still be happy.
TrashPandaBros · 1 points · Posted at 20:22:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is true, I was exaggerating mostly because a lot of people have invisible disabilities and confirmation bias (among other things) makes them feel as if they're constantly being told they "look healthy" when they feel like their stomach is turning inside out or like their leg is going to fall off.
Several of the other replies mentioned it hitting home with them and what I wanted was to project to people who don't have experience what the subjective feeling is.
tumult_Vpon · 1 points · Posted at 22:22:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What i find most exhausting about being subject to chronic pain/discomfort, is that people who aren't chronically sick get really uncomfortable when you talk about chronic pain. And to an extent, i can understand being uncomfortable at learning of someone else's disadvantages. For example, when people discuss racism, i tend to get uncomfortable because I'm white and haven't really experienced racism to the extend of a black/african american, asian, or native.
That being said, when people berate me for not being positive on my chronic pain pisses me off to no end. I cannot be happy and positive about all the joints from the waist down aching. I cannot be happy and positive as i notice more and more pain in my upper body after years of just having pain in my hips and knees. I understand that it makes people uncomfortable but instead of trying to project your disposition on me, you could maybe try to understand why i am the way i am. Maybe learn some about chronic illnesses. Maybe just let me be in a shitty mood for a little bit because its cathartic to be pissy for a day. Maybe I'm just naturally kind of a pessimistic person and would like to be a pessimist in peace, but i would appreciate it if people would stop telling me to smile more and go outside instead of staying in and taking the medications my doctors gave me. I guess, id like to see some understanding -not pity or sympathy- for my illness.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 17:53:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Bullshit. You don't magically become a dunce when your sick. I realized long ago that magical essences and oils and herbal supplements don't do shit for me . You are just defending poor decision making. Having a chronic illness pushes me to find actual methods to live and work with it.
Angry mood aside ... a lot of that comes from having a good support system. Be honest with your family about what your going through, more people empathize than you'd guess.
TrashPandaBros · 4 points · Posted at 18:05:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's not what I'm trying to say, though. Not at all. My assertion is that people see their chronically ill loved one buy snakeoil and don't understand why an otherwise intelligent person would do such a thing.
In some cases, it is that the person is simply fooled by misinformation, but in many cases the person knows the snakeoil won't help academically but believes the action of "doing something" will make them feel better.
I'm not asserting it's necessarily a good or rational decision that the sick person is making, I'm saying that most people don't understand why they're making that decision and without understanding, we can't change anything.
I don't buy the snakeoil, either, but if I don't know why my friends with my condition do, I can't talk them out of it.
elleoof · 3 points · Posted at 18:16:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's not a matter of magically becoming a dunce. You're just more willing to try unlikely solutions when you're desperate.
Trying a gluten-free diet because a few people on an internet message board said it helped their condition isn't a poor decision if you're exhausted and in pain all of the time, your injectable medicine gives you awful panic attacks and giant welts, and doctors don't even fully understand how your disease works.
[deleted] · -3 points · Posted at 16:19:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
TrashPandaBros · 8 points · Posted at 16:43:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't mean to say that "chronic illness = you're depressed forever" or anything like that. What I mean to say is that having a chronic condition, especially one with little to no treatment (and especially if the symptoms are random or otherwise unpredictable), can create mental/emotional strain that is somewhat alleviated by taking an action that might* make you feel less sick.
*Almost definitely won't, however in some cases they do for the wrong reason. (Example being a diet change that doesn't help your illness in specific, but makes you healthier in general)
Also, I wasn't trying to assert that the behavior is rational. Sports fans wearing their "lucky jersey" on game day isn't rational, either, but doing it makes their stupid monkey brain happy. A major reason it's difficult for healthy people to understand is precisely because it's irrational.
It's by no means ubiquitous. Plenty of people, like apparently you, have chronic conditions and get through life just fine. I think healthy people would be shocked to learn how many people around them are suffering from chronic conditions. However, it's very common to hear people talking about how confused they are because friend/family member with a chronic condition bought x product that's obviously not going to help their condition.
Further, if a sick person is buying snakeoil to their actual detriment (too expensive, it's actually harmful, etc), a healthy person trying to help the sick person will have difficulty convincing them to stop if they don't understand why the sick person started in the first place.
RazTehWaz · 1 points · Posted at 22:02:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sometimes you can't mitigate the symptoms though. No amount of giving myself pep talks is going to make me able to do the things I used to be able to do. "A little extra effort " just lands me in bed for a week crying in pain and wishing I could go back and undo it.
Source: Also have a chronic illness.
ncalder17 · 1503 points · Posted at 14:28:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That Freedom of Speech is not equivalent to freedom from consequences of their idiocy.
TrainOfThought6 · 834 points · Posted at 15:08:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I can't remember where I heard this, but someone once said that defending a position by citing free speech is sort of the ultimate concession; you're saying that the most compelling thing you can say for your position is that it's not literally illegal to express.
Kijafa · 194 points · Posted at 15:24:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oh your comment was the alt-text. I was gonna say "how do you not remember where you heard that when you're linking directly to it..."
ncalder17 · 87 points · Posted at 15:30:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Same initial reaction..."I don't remember where I heard it, but I do recall that the URL of the page was HTTP colon slash slash...."
TheShadowKick · 1 points · Posted at 20:52:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is why we use quotation marks.
ElliottPolin · 52 points · Posted at 15:46:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
On the same token, responding to a respectfully held forum/panel with screaming incoherent protest rather than engaging with someone you disagree with is also a concession of your argument.
Wayne_Spooney · 3 points · Posted at 15:50:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yup. You're conceding that you are, in fact, a huge twat.
Maleoppressor · 4 points · Posted at 17:41:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Or resort to a hundred -ists and -phobics in a full ad hominem reply.
[deleted] · 9 points · Posted at 16:37:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's the same as an organization defending unethical behavior by saying, "We're not doing anything illegal!"
blackhat91 · 1 points · Posted at 20:14:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
God, where I work at is the worst for this... In ten years this company has existed, they have never fired anyone. Literally, no one. They brag about this too.
No, not because they are that good at hiring. See, if they fire you, in most cases they have to pay unemployment for a set amount of time based on how long you worked, reason for firing, etc. However, if they "no longer need your position", eliminate it and then furlough you, they pay nothing. And, the best part? It's completely legal, so they aren't doing anything wrong, right?
Now, you may wonder "but what if it's an important position? Like accounting?" Well, in that case, after fir- I mean, furloughing you, they hire a "contractor" to "outsource" the job. It's more efficient than having it in house, right? Well, of course, you can't do accounting from a distance, so might as well set you up an office in the building so you can work. And then, surprise! six months later, we like you so much we created an accounting position just for you! You're hired!
Maleoppressor · 7 points · Posted at 17:40:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" - Evelyn Beatrice Hall
getmoneygetpaid · 2 points · Posted at 21:56:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Does the same go for claiming freedom of belief? Like, if your belief (religious or otherwise) has so little merit that it wouldn't stand up on its own, is citing freedom of belief the ultimate concession that what you are practicing is so insane / pointless / ignorant / selfish / harmful that the most compelling thing you can say for your position is that it's not literally illegal to do so.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 18:29:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's not, though. It's the principle that I can have my opinion no matter how badly you disagree with it. To rephrase it, "the most compelling thing I can convince you of is that I'm legally expressing my opinion".
There's a reason that whenever some mom who's never driven outside Columbus decides that video games need to be controlled or that hijabs should be banned, people point to free speech. Because she's too convinced to listen to anything else.
TrainOfThought6 · 3 points · Posted at 18:41:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That means the same thing though, you're not actually defending your position.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:48:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You're not defending your position to that person, because your views are different on a fundamental level. OP implied that there was no defence, when it's closer to "there's no defence that you would accept"
TrainOfThought6 · 3 points · Posted at 19:02:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
True, but that's covered in the statement:
A convincing defense might exist, but if your only argument is free speech, you don't have a convincing defense.
You make a good point though. If you're arguing with someone and they trot out the free speech defense, it doesn't automatically mean all of their prior arguments are null and void. It just means they've been rejected, valid or not.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:47:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Nothing is compelling if someone disagrees
PotassiumAstatide · 0 points · Posted at 18:49:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not quite. If it's gotten to the point where I have to remind you that free speech is a thing, it's not the most compelling thing I can say; it's the only thing I can say that you might actually listen to. And even that's not a guarantee; nowadays you have people flying into a triggered rage at the mere mention of the phrase.
confesstousher · 103 points · Posted at 15:30:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And that supporting restrictions on free speech towards the things you hate, increases the likelihood of restrictions on free speech towards the things you support.
[deleted] · 16 points · Posted at 16:53:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I was having a conversation over in /r/Europe about this yesterday. In some European countries you can be jailed for doing a Nazi salute in public... Yet when I make this point I'm a Nazi sympathizer lol ok
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 18:30:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
thehypergod · 3 points · Posted at 18:46:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That is not how it works... at all.
thehypergod · 1 points · Posted at 18:46:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Have you ever actually been to Europe?
ythl · 4 points · Posted at 19:11:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I've read articles about people in Europe going to jail for mean stuff they wrote on Twitter. Wow.
thehypergod · 1 points · Posted at 07:20:43 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
So... that's a no then.
ythl · 0 points · Posted at 12:11:53 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I've lived in Italy and Germany.
thehypergod · 1 points · Posted at 18:47:09 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Bollocks.
ythl · 1 points · Posted at 19:24:11 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I lived in Glan-Münchweiler, Germany for 2 years. My dad was stationed at Ramstein AB. I lived in Italy for 5 years, 3 in Pinetamare, near Naples. My dad was stationed at a nearby NATO base in Pozzuoli. I also spent 2 years in Rome, Terni, Prato, and Sassari as a missionary. I'll prove it. I took a picture of myself holding out a book of mormon to the pope while I was a missionary: http://imgur.com/a/bOuZJ
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 18:56:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No I have not. What's your point?
regendo · 1 points · Posted at 21:34:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The nazi salute being illegal is a bit of an extreme example—while it makes a lot of sense in some cases, the salute is of course often only used ironically or jokingly. I don't think there currently are exceptions for this (there are exceptions for educational purposes, so your history teacher can demonstrate it in context) but perhaps there should be.
The core belief behind all of those restrictions is that some ideas are just too dangerous to even give them a platform. Rhetoric can spread like wildfire, and especially Germany is dedicated to never allowing nazi-like rhetoric to spread again. Suppressing these beliefs might not help to convince those few who are already convinced about them, but it will stop them from spreading those beliefs to the general public and actually becoming a wild-spread issue.
Every day you can see misinformation spread on the internet and once it has, it's difficult to bring people back to the more reasonable view (just think of any time anyone's name has been published as a potential criminal in some investigation and how even after they were revealed to be innocent the public's opinion of them remained ruined forever). While this isn't that important in less serious cases, Germans strongly believe that in more serious cases like anything nazi-like, it's just not acceptable to let these beliefs spread and to let them be normalized in the minds of the people.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 21:57:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
While I agree with almost all of your points, I have to disagree with the fact that it is morally right for a government to decide how it's people should think.
You said yourself, in the modern age the internet allows information to spread freely, making the effect of these laws even more useless and backwards.
JonBStoutWork · -6 points · Posted at 18:42:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Or you could have laws that don't allow hate speech that don't infringe on anything other than hate speech. Works here and it's the right thing to do.
It's not infringing in anything other than hate.
[deleted] · 6 points · Posted at 18:55:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well that just puts us in a bubble. "You can think anything you want except for X" isn't freedom. Don't you think a better solution would be proper education and social pressures rather than laws forbidding a certain thought?
JonBStoutWork · -2 points · Posted at 19:20:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No it means you can think anything you like, you just can't spout hate. It's easy to do. Along with it you teach kids tolerance and show them the atrocities that can happen when people hate someone because they're different.
You still get racists and bigots and assholes but they just don't have a right to spew their shit.
[deleted] · 4 points · Posted at 19:29:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah but don't you see how the same argument can be seen from the other side? Take North Korea, for example. "You can think whatever you want, but you'll be imprisoned for spewing imperialist American bullshit"? Obviously, in the western world's case it is preventing hate speech, but it's an overreach of government control and a slippery slope.
JonBStoutWork · -2 points · Posted at 19:38:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No it's not the same at all. And isn't the other side of any argument. Hate speech is attacking someone or something it's not criticism or having an opinion or opening a dialogue.
For example I tell you you're a fucking idiot because yoy can't understand a basic concept is fair enough. That's nothing to do with hating you because of your race or gender or whatever. But saying you should be put to death because you are gay would be. That's an attack.
[deleted] · 4 points · Posted at 19:52:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Can I ask why exactly you think it's different? Ideologies don't come up out of thin air, this is deep-rooted hate that is brought on by social pressures that shift our point of view.
Let's look at this without labels. One group of people with ideology x and another with ideology y. In a modern day western country, you can go to jail for years for simply doing to a harmless gesture that shows your support for ideology y, while if you were to do the same thing with ideology x. It's hypocritical.
Now, hate-speech is completely different as it targets groups of people and can be used to incite violence. Throwing up a Nazi salute, yelling "Heil Hitler," even flying a confederate flag are all harmless forms of showing support for a (granted, horrible) ideology.
JonBStoutWork · 0 points · Posted at 20:44:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's so narrow minded a view point it's beyond my reasoning
Demonikuski · 4 points · Posted at 20:37:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But criticism, having an opinion and opening dialogue can be classified as hate speech by the people who don't consider that opinion to be permissible.
What if I object immigration to my small homeland that is originally founded as the national state of Finns, on the grounds that I don't want our nation to be replaced. Someone will inevitably call that hate speech against ethnic groups other than my own, but it is criticism against immigration policy, it is having a political opinion and it's even opening a dialogue with anyone I might express this opinion to, so classifying it as illegal hate speech would clearly infringe on my right to express my opinions.
What if I express an opinion that we should forbid building minarets (such a law exist in Switzerland)? Someone will inevitably call it hate speech against Muslims, but again it is an opinion, too, and all that stuff, so classifying it as illegal hate speech would again clearly infringe on my right to express my opinions.
What about jokes that could be considered offensive to some group of people? Are they considered hate speech? If so, people's right to express their sense of humour is infringed.
You try to make it sound simple, but it isn't. There are already points in the law that forbid flat out telling someone to commit a crime. They cover the blatant incitements for violence. If you're going to introduce hate speech laws, of course they're going to be more vague and there will be significant room for interpretation.
JonBStoutWork · 1 points · Posted at 20:41:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Having an opinion about anything including immigration isn't hate speech. Disagreeing with someone isn't hate speech.
Attacking a person or group because of their differences is.
Whispering_Shadows · 1 points · Posted at 21:27:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Demonikuski's opinions sound pretty hateful. S/he is espousing ideas that are actively against diversity of peoples and culture, especially against those of the Middle East who are predominantly Muslims. I bet s/he secretly thinks of minarets as "terrorist towers."
S/he sounds like a Finn supremacist espousing racial nativist language and trying to defend it by hiding behind freedom of speech. As a non-Finn who enjoys the aesthetics minarets, especially in Mughal architecture, I find his/her opinions rather closed-minded and bordering on hateful. I no longer feel comfortable visiting a place like Finland if it is going to have people like Demonikuski arguing that I'm not good enough to even live there. /s
Demonikuski · 1 points · Posted at 13:00:26 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
And this is exactly the kind of rationalization that is used to apply hate speech laws to silence dissenting opinions on certain topics.
Well demonstrated, thanks! That was your point, right?
Whispering_Shadows · 1 points · Posted at 15:42:33 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes, that was the point. Glad you got it.
confesstousher · 1 points · Posted at 03:04:56 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Who decides what is hate speech and what isn't?
hastur77 · 55 points · Posted at 15:42:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Social consequences are fine - shunning, boycotting, people telling you that you're wrong, but criminal repercussions or violence is not permissible.
Psudopod · 16 points · Posted at 17:34:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Solving your problems by initiating violence is never the answer.
CourierOfTheWastes · 7 points · Posted at 18:17:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Thank you for using the word "initiating"
flyingfences · 4 points · Posted at 18:42:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Key here is the clarification that the category of actions that is "initiating violence" does not include the act of making vague, unsubstantiated threats about what might happen in the long-term future.
CourierOfTheWastes · 1 points · Posted at 20:01:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
in-gorram-deed.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:37:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'll add a qualification of fine "within reason." There are some things we all disagree with, but not universal truths. We should be willing to interact with someone with differing views. Obviously, being a racist in any form is outside of that within reason caveat.
jivow · -1 points · Posted at 17:56:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Why not?
You can literally make people die with only your words e.g. by:
Or to look ot it in the other way - if you cause small discomfort to someone by punching them in a muscle tissue (so there is not even a bruise) you can get convicted, but if you destroy someone's life by talking to them (e.g. harassing and destroying their self-worth) it should be ok?
flyingfences · 3 points · Posted at 18:47:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In the cases that you are bringing up, the punishment would not be for the speech but for responsibility for the death. If you're egging on a suicidal person, knowing that your actions are likely to result in their death, then you are partly responsible for their death.
hastur77 · 1 points · Posted at 18:02:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You're right, I should have prefaced by saying there are exceptions for things like solicitation of murder and harassment.
JonBStoutWork · -2 points · Posted at 18:43:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Criminal prosecution for enciting hatred is the 100% correct
hastur77 · 7 points · Posted at 19:20:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Enticing hatred is a pretty broad category of speech to subject to criminal prosecution.
JonBStoutWork · -1 points · Posted at 19:26:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not really. Hate speech is speech which attacks a person or group on the basis of attributes such as race, religion, ethnic origin, sexual orientation, disability, or gender. I mean it's straight forward.
hastur77 · 4 points · Posted at 19:30:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So any criticism of Islam or Christianity and go to jail? Any criticism of men? And if you implemented this law in the U.S., you'd be giving the power to the Trump administration.
JonBStoutWork · 0 points · Posted at 19:33:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Criticism isn't the same as hate. Not agreeing with something or someone is not the same as hating them. Having an opinion isn't hate. But attacking someone for their differences is. Honestly it's not difficult.
evil_cryptarch · 3 points · Posted at 20:08:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And who decides what the difference is between "criticism" and "attacking"? You?
Seems you haven't fully thought this through.
JonBStoutWork · 1 points · Posted at 20:42:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't have to there are laws defining it
kcjg8 · 285 points · Posted at 15:27:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But reacting to someone else's free speech with violence isn't ok. People seem to be forgetting that lately
Super_Zac · 243 points · Posted at 15:39:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
They act like if you disagree with "PUNCH NAZIS" then you must actually be a Nazi. I'm not saying I don't want to punch a Nazi- I'm just saying that punching people you disagree with doesn't really help your cause. It's better to punch them verbally with sound logic.
black_fire · 172 points · Posted at 15:54:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"this person disagreed with my views so much that he/she punched me. I should rethink my values and be a better person like them."
- No Nazi ever
[deleted] · 32 points · Posted at 16:38:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[removed]
DeathMCevilcruel · 19 points · Posted at 16:54:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Did it tho
TheCastro · 9 points · Posted at 17:40:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not the ones in Argentina.
95Mb · 8 points · Posted at 17:42:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
They ran away from the punching tho
TheCastro · 2 points · Posted at 18:29:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But they didn't stop being Nazis.
aeyamar · 1 points · Posted at 18:32:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's a very tiny minority of them though.
TheCastro · 2 points · Posted at 18:43:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yea, but then there's the one that looks like Hitler.
And some guy got a lot of genuine Nazi shit: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jun/20/hitler-bust-among-argentinas-biggest-haul-of-nazi-artefacts-found-in-secret-room
aeyamar · 1 points · Posted at 18:52:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Amusing, but even if the Hitler escaped conspiracies were true, I think my point still stands that the majority of Germans gave up on Nazism once they were defeated in WWII
TheCastro · 1 points · Posted at 19:17:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Most Germans weren't part of the Nazi party outside of needing to be in it for jobs or protection from the government. Any with culpability that didn't flee were sentenced to jail, many if not all were jailed in Berlin at that prison the 4 allies took turns running.
whydoyouask123 · 3 points · Posted at 19:05:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm pretty sure that it's predecessor "Punch a German," directly lead to the rise of the Nazi's.
foxymcfox · 1 points · Posted at 19:19:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What about Kick-a-Kraut? That didn't add to the problem though, right?
Sierra_Oscar_Lima · 13 points · Posted at 17:06:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No it didn't, they took over an entire country and killed off a minority population. They only got put back in their place when they invaded other countries.
aeyamar · 2 points · Posted at 18:34:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
He means other countries meeting the Nazis with violence "punching" is what got Germany to give Nazism up
Solgud · 4 points · Posted at 18:52:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't think other countries "punched" Germans for their Nazi ideology or even for trying to exterminate minorities, but rather their invasion of other countries.
aeyamar · 2 points · Posted at 18:57:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Nazi expansionism was inextricably linked to their supremacist ideology. They believed the Germans deserved to be a great nation and needed lebensraum (living space) to achieve this. They decided the natural thing to do was to seize the land from the peoples they viewed as lesser. Their plan was essentially to take over Eastern Europe cleanse it of its inferior inhabitants (Jews, Slavs, Romani, etc) and in so doing make the Aryan German state as great as they imagined their race to be.
Solgud · 3 points · Posted at 19:27:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not refuting that, just saying that if they didn't invade other countries no other countries would have been punching Nazis. And they would have been punching them no matter their ideology if they were invading other countries for other reasons.
aeyamar · 1 points · Posted at 19:37:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Hard to say. The full on genocide ramping up in peacetime probably would have at least triggered some action (especially from Russia since they intended to target Slavic people), though with the other allies generally wanting to avoid another continental war their involvement might have been more limited. I think the why they were met with violence though is irrelevant to the fact that the violence they were met with worked.
DoctorHolmes23 · 7 points · Posted at 16:51:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Rhetoric agaisnt evil ideas is not just for those who hold such ideas. It's not just them you are trying to dissuade from faulty and evil logic, it is also everyone who heard your conversation. If a kid saw you punch some random white guy on the street, he won't know why, he will just know that you did something wrong. Logical arguments rebutting evil ideology reinforces the idea that no one should have those opinions and no one should take them in the future.
CaptainMoonman · 11 points · Posted at 17:17:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There is also an argument to be made that, by calmly debating Nazism, you are granting it legitimacy in the eyes of onlookers because you're treating it with respect. It's always a good thing to teach children about its evils, but debating it like any other political difference can also be harmful. If you take the tone of a debate between "taxes should be raised" and "taxes should be lowered" and apply it to one between "I respect all people" and "the Jews should be rounded up and burned alive" that same child will not understand the radically different standpoints in the debate and see it as though those two things should be treated equally: after all, the grown ups all seem to treat them that way.
Merediv · 18 points · Posted at 18:09:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think the main problem is by punching a Nazi, or using any other forceful method, you are escalating the confrontation. While their views may be horrible and in no way defensible, you lose the moral high ground and, in a way, become the bad guy yourself.
To use the WW2 example, we didn't attack the Nazis for saying things we didn't like, we attacked them in response to their acts of physical aggression.
Basically, respond to verbal arguments and hate speech with words, and respond to physical threats and acts of violence with self defence. Escalating conflict is never a good means to a stable end.
CourierOfTheWastes · 6 points · Posted at 18:16:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
We need more people like you and fewer people like him.
CaptainMoonman · 4 points · Posted at 18:34:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The moral high ground is all well and good until inaction against a dangerous group gets people killed. The problem may not be solved just by punching them, but sure as Hell won't be solved by kind words and tolerating them, either.
CyberianSun · 1 points · Posted at 18:43:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And yet there is a time and a place for that inaction to become action. We still very much live in a country where you are innocent until proven guilty lets not forget that.
CaptainMoonman · 1 points · Posted at 19:04:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
At the point you willingly admit to wanting to commit genocide, there should be some kind of process to mitigate the threat you and your cohorts pose.
CyberianSun · 2 points · Posted at 19:07:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And thats the reason we have hate crime laws. The most anyone can do with out us actually turning into a police state is to put these a holes on a watch list, set up a police task force to infiltrate their more radical elements and look for evidence of actual crimes committed. Other wise if you start rounding people up for saying stuff you become that which you fight against.
CaptainMoonman · 2 points · Posted at 19:20:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Updating your hate speech laws would certainly help. In most of the rest of the Western world, countries have laws that prohibit publicly stating that religious or ethnic groups should be persecuted or harmed. In Canada, for example, you aren't allowed to advocate genocide for any identifiable group and can be sent to prison for doing so.
richieadler · 0 points · Posted at 18:18:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
On the other hand, there's something to be said about people who consider more important to keep the moral high ground over saving other people's lives...
richieadler · 1 points · Posted at 18:18:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
On the other hand, there's something to be said about people who consider more important to keep the moral high ground over saving other people's lives...
richieadler · -1 points · Posted at 18:20:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
On the other hand, there's something to be said about people who consider more important to keep the moral high ground over saving other people's lives...
DoctorHolmes23 · 2 points · Posted at 18:52:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How does punching someone show anyone that an ideology is wrong?
The only reason this is a discussion is because we have ignored Nazism and white supremacy in America. Now more than ever, any notions of legitimacy must be dismissed to prevent any more impressionable people from joining.
Besides, your argument about giving legitimacy to evil ideas by logically rebutting them, only stands when very little people support those ideas.
CaptainMoonman · 2 points · Posted at 19:12:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's not the number that supports them, It's the audience that hears it. If we start broadcasting to the world the idea that the way to combat Nazism is to debate it in the same manner we would any other political ideology, we paint a picture in which it's implied that it's as valid an ideology as anything else. Presenting something in the same context as something else conveys that the two things are similar.
DoctorHolmes23 · 1 points · Posted at 20:06:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The number of people who do support it does matter because that is thr obly instance where ignoring them, like you suggest, would be a succesful way to prevent those people from gaining any traction and legitimacy.
Also, how is leaving these ideas unchallenged better than logically shooting them down? It's not like any normal person can't find them at their local library or on the internet. Hell the YouTube comment section is full of it. Logically addressing these ideas shows those who are listening why it is wrong. They will find out about those ideas no matter what, atleast when they are exposed to it, they will see my voice and many others telling them why it is evil and illogical.
CaptainMoonman · 1 points · Posted at 21:13:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When I say their numbers don't matter, I specifically mean right now, before they gain anymore traction. And it's not like you'll be banned from logically shooting them down, but that isn't enough to practically suppress the spread of Nazism. The reason you can't defeat a Nazi's convictions with logic is because they don't believe what they do because they've come to a logical conclusion, they believe because they've been indoctrinated into the ideology. Their beliefs are based in emotion and a feeling of victimisation. Those people who will be susceptible to Nazi exploitation and indoctrination aren't people you can convince to to stay away from Nazism by providing them with a well-reasoned argument, because that's not the part of them that is preyed upon by Nazis. The best way to prevent the spread of Nazism is to suppress them, slander their beliefs, demonise them in the eyes of the public, and prevent legitimisation of them as a political movement.
You can't fight an enemy that denies all reason by appealing to their sense of rational thinking. They must be torn down at every level; have society turn against them at its core. Teach the children to hate them and the public to fear them, and they can't regain control.
Owl02 · 4 points · Posted at 18:51:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Violence also grants Nazis legitimacy, because it allows them to craft a victim narrative due to their rights being violated. This is one of the ways that the original Nazis solidified their power base in Germany.
CaptainMoonman · 5 points · Posted at 19:07:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Suppression of their ideology would be a more effective way to prevent its spread than giving them a political platform and telling people not to listen. By allowing them to gain power, we become complicit in their actions.
Owl02 · 1 points · Posted at 19:25:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Suppression doesn't work. In an environment of radical chaos such as that created by widespread political violence, the people demand radical order, and suddenly you wind up with fascists in charge because they promised to clean up the streets.
The best response is therefore to avoid and condemn said chaos, to keep the fascists on the fringes where they belong.
Also, you cannot kill an idea, its adherents will only be driven underground to radicalize further, etc. etc.
CaptainMoonman · 2 points · Posted at 19:41:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I never understood the idea of "pushing them underground will only make them stronger". If they can't organise publicly, they can't spread theirs views to gain a significant support base. By forcing them underground and decentralising them, they become scattered and unable to form a cohesive group large enough to cause significant damage. By allowing them to operate publicly, they can openly spread their ideology to more people and radicalise a larger number than they ever could in secret. Several groups of twenty hardcore Nazis are far less dangerous then one group of two hundred thousand Nazis of various levels of commitment. On top of that, by fracturing the Nazi groups into smaller ones, it becomes more likely that the individual groups will develop their own take on Nazism as a whole, making it more difficult to work together on a larger scale.
TL;DR: I understand that they'll get further radicalised, but there'll be fewer of them and in smaller groups, less able to work with each other.
Slippedhal0 · 1 points · Posted at 19:59:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In the open they can discuss their opinions, but we can also express ours which can make people consider both sides.
If you force them to hide behind closed doors it becomes an echo chamber with no opposing side, or worse it can be easier to radicalise vulnerable groups by having the 'right' opinion forced on them, while those who appear 'on their side' can tell them how oppressed they are, and how their opinion must be right because they are being oppressed.
It's a staple of brainwashing/indoctrination tactics to limit their exposure to sources of other opinions and to manipulate the target into feeling oppressed by a strawman opponent. Consider how similar it wold be to just shutting down a movement you feel is wrong.
CaptainMoonman · 3 points · Posted at 20:21:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's better that they radicalise a smaller group of people than to let their message radicalise millions over several years by spreading it to the whole country. They will have a more devout group, but their limited numbers will prevent them from causing serious damage.
And as for the "hear both sides" argument, that goes both ways. As much as Nazis could hear our side of it, we can hear theirs. You can radicalise a much larger number of people when your message reaches everyone, especially when the population you're preaching to lacks the same ideological conviction that comes with being involved in a supremacist group.
None of what I'm suggesting is particularly novel. Canada's hate speech laws make it illegal and jailable to publically advocate for genocide and we don't seem to have that big a problem with Nazis. I've never actually noticed any serious Nazis groups up here.
frogandbanjo · 10 points · Posted at 16:41:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"Hopefully everyone will continue mollycoddling my obvious fascistic tendencies and plans until it's too late to stop me. Oooh, I know, I'll yell a lot about "muh freedom" as a distraction."
-Lots and lots and lots of horrible people, including Nazis.
Obligatius · 11 points · Posted at 18:17:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah... I'd take you antifa folks a little more seriously if your rhetoric wasn't even more absurdly alarmist than the white supremacists, "have to stop the Jews and darkies before it's too late for our country...".
There is exactly zero chance of a fascist take over of this country, and the "resurgence" of racism is nothing more than the desperate flailing and dying gasps of an extremely small minority holding an ideology that has LOST the culture war, and is lashing out at everyone/everything around them as they drown and sink into complete irrelevancy.
The ctrl-left's obsession with the alt-right extremists (and the conflicts created/magnified) has given the alt-rights a greater platform (national media spotlight) to spew their bullshit one last time before they get relegated to the historical record as nothing more than a shameful stain.
TL:DR The ctrl-left's attention has empowered the alt-right far beyond their meager representation in the actual public mind.
LE4d · 3 points · Posted at 18:57:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Eh, I'm more willing to lay blame on the people saying "kill some kinds of people" than the people saying "no dont". Or, if the problem is the amplification via news, then the people running those news outlets.
ScienceYouMonster · 1 points · Posted at 20:57:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In what way is the person you're replying to an "antifa folk"? That's no better than calling every Trump supporter a fascist or a Nazi. I might have taken your argument seriously without that unnecessary bit of immaturity.
Obligatius · 0 points · Posted at 21:27:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Uh... you do understand that antifa is their preferred nomenclature? Short for anti-fascist, and they wear it proudly? And /u/frogandbanjo was clearly identifying with those who feel they need to violently fight against the perceived threat of fascism from neo-nazis and alt-right extremists - because he/she claims that anyone who doesn't condone violence against them is "molly-coddling" them.
I strongly recommend that you re-read their post, and the post that they were replying to. If you still don't believe that /u/frogandbanjo is defending violence against fascists, I guess I'm at a loss as to how to make that more clear to you.
foxymcfox · -1 points · Posted at 19:21:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Related: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE3j_RHkqJc
NOT_A_SENTIENT_DILDO · 5 points · Posted at 17:56:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Says the person who thinks silencing other opinions, even objectionable ones, isn't fascism.
vacuousaptitude · 4 points · Posted at 18:17:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How do you define fascism? I think your definition is wrong
NOT_A_SENTIENT_DILDO · 2 points · Posted at 18:57:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And what is your definition my friend? The google definition? Because revision of language is something i would classify as fascistic.
vacuousaptitude · 7 points · Posted at 19:06:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is a very good definition. No revision of language here.
NOT_A_SENTIENT_DILDO · 0 points · Posted at 19:22:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
An excellent shorthand interpretation. Unfortunately that definition is so broad i could point at any one example and it would merely be one cog in the machine that I call fascism. You could easily say it isn't fascism. When it is. Just a peice of it.
There's no way around the fact that any argument about what is and isn't fascism can become a lot like a conversation about what is and isn't art. Comes down to personal interpretation.
I think that silencing of speech behind any premise is an aspect of fascism. I think that forming monopolies on cultural forums of speech and enforcing wrongthink on those forums is an aspect of fascism.
Kanegawa · 5 points · Posted at 17:48:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I remember WWII was one via a series of logical arguments held by debate teams.
CourierOfTheWastes · 12 points · Posted at 18:15:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Responding to force with reasonable force is reasonable. We didn't bomb the nazis because they were Nazis, we bombed them for doing shit.
It's not quite equivalent to using force on someone who's displaying an ideology. In that bombing a Nazi-manned Panzer during its attack on you is fully justifiable, and punching a person who's spouting an ideology is unjustifiably unethical.
vacuousaptitude · -3 points · Posted at 18:16:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Unless that ideology is that they're trying to convince people to commit genocide..
CourierOfTheWastes · 4 points · Posted at 18:40:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There's always an unless, when people want to ignore rights.
vacuousaptitude · 5 points · Posted at 18:41:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You do not have a right to instigate genocide.
CourierOfTheWastes · 6 points · Posted at 20:02:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
-/u/flyingfences
I literally can't currently put it better than they did.
edit: sorry /u/flyingfences I misattributed it to my debate partner instead of you.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 18:01:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
F1nnyF6 · 2 points · Posted at 19:03:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Except that does happen/ has happened.
Best example is that case I read about recently where a black man basically single handedly dismantled a KKK group. How, might you ask? Not by going round punching them - that would have only made them believe stronger whatever bigoted shit about black people being like animals that they already thought.
Instead, he essentially befriended them all one by one. As soon as the thought "all black people are bad - except this guy" enters their head, it of course immediately began to make them question their beliefs as they weren't compatible; with the result being that they realised that their beliefs were wrong.
Ultimately, what Im saying here is that its much more important to challenge peoples bigoted ideas with debate and contrary examples. Most probably stem from a position of ignorance
NickEggplant · -1 points · Posted at 17:52:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I dunno man, I feel like we whooped the Nazis' asses pretty hard in WWII and made it clear that their views would not be tolerated in society. So in the same line of thought, I'm all for beating the shit out of neo-Nazis today.
[deleted] · 7 points · Posted at 18:05:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Fighting a nation is a lot different than fighting your bigoted neighbor. You can't apply the same methodology.
black_fire · 7 points · Posted at 18:09:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"We" was the entire industrial and military might of the United States fighting (with the support of our European allies) an oppressive nation-state that was committing crimes against humanity on a religious minority.
"We", today, would be 1 or 2 people assaulting people who've committed no crimes. We'd also have no legal justification to do so other than the fact that they're saying extremely inflammatory shit.
If they're in America, they'll play by our rules. We outnumber, outgun, and outsmart them. We don't need to resort to barbaric tactics and we will expunge cancerous parts of our society forcefully, with impunity, and within the laws we've put in place for ourselves.
[deleted] · -3 points · Posted at 16:00:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
CremeFraicheOSRS · 3 points · Posted at 16:05:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Did u forget a "/s" or are u just retarded?
Super_Zac · 12 points · Posted at 16:14:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
They deleted their comment so here it is for the record:
Also here's my response, I typed it up but the comment got deleted:
Actually you're wrong, and simply Googling "former neo-nazi interview" will pull up many results of people who changed their ways. I can be very cynical, but I still believe that people can change their viewpoint. Especially with many of these neo-nazis, they are young and impressionable and may eventually realize what a stupid mistake they made.
Geertiebear · 3 points · Posted at 16:06:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I really hope you see the irony here...
CourierOfTheWastes · 3 points · Posted at 18:13:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
http://www.newsweek.com/richard-spencer-punch-nazi-ethicists-547277
DoctorLazertron · 7 points · Posted at 16:48:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The word 'nazi' is being watered down to the point that someone like Pewdiepie could be attacked and some people would think it's justified. Same with JonTron, the dude said some ignorant shit, but he's not running over protesters. This watering down also contributes to the alt-right's defense of actual nazis.
Super_Zac · 8 points · Posted at 16:50:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Even in this thread there are multiple examples of people saying "conservatives/fascists" and "Nazis/trump supporters" as if they're the same thing. It's ridiculous, and like you said it waters down the term. It doesn't hold as much weight anymore, and now more actual nazis are showing up than we've seen in years.
DoctorLazertron · 1 points · Posted at 16:52:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The vocal minority has too much influence right now. Hope it settles down soon.
vacuousaptitude · 2 points · Posted at 18:18:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Do you agree that the shit on Saturday was actual Nazis? What does it take to be an actual nazi?
DoctorLazertron · 4 points · Posted at 18:27:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't have the political education or authority to define that, but crashing your car into a crowd of people because white people are the bestest, well we can firmly set the bar below that.
vacuousaptitude · 2 points · Posted at 18:41:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
They also carried nazi flags, wore nazi uniforms and helmets, put nazi insignia on their shields and weapons, did nazi salutes, and chanted nazi chants!
DoctorLazertron · 5 points · Posted at 18:42:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Right, and what I'm saying is pewdiepie and jontron certainly did not do that. As much as I hate Donald Trump, he didn't either.
vacuousaptitude · 0 points · Posted at 18:45:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Right but the people on Saturday did that. It was a Nazi rally. The person who ran over 20 people with his car did that.
DoctorLazertron · 3 points · Posted at 18:48:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think we might be misunderstanding each other. I agree that the people at the rally were nazis. The point of the rally was freedom of speech, but it brought on an army of morons, just like most political events do, but someone fucking died because of white nationalism. As much as the far left ticks me off, I'll never stand for that.
vacuousaptitude · 1 points · Posted at 18:57:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Do you think people have the right to try to get others to help them perpetuate genocide?
DoctorLazertron · 2 points · Posted at 19:09:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Trying to silence someone only brightens the spotlight. I say let them preach to the choir, anyone else listening will see how awful they are.
vacuousaptitude · 1 points · Posted at 19:34:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Does it though? Post Nazi Germany doesn't seem to have the problem we do now.
DoctorLazertron · 2 points · Posted at 19:41:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is going nowhere, thanks for your time though. Nice talk.
chutril · 5 points · Posted at 16:08:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I normally agree with this, but I feel like we've gone past the point where people listen to your arguments. Now they seem it ignore you and shout you down. So it's like sound logic doesn't work anymore. Punching doesn't work and never has, and can possibly line up somebody to be a martyr. I just don't know what does work.
Super_Zac · 8 points · Posted at 16:26:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I mentioned this in another comment; I like to point to traditional debate. Your goal isn't really to convince your opponent, it's to convince the onlookers.
I will say though that is is incredibly difficult to do at a Nazi rally because you're right, they will shut you down with shouting. However, you can still try to convince the more weak-minded or impressionable in attendance. By going up and punching someone, you're just steeling the resolve of even the most non-committed skinhead there.
chutril · 1 points · Posted at 16:28:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Good point about the onlookers. I suppose it's like politics now even moreso than before.
Super_Zac · 0 points · Posted at 16:34:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I may not be right, but I just hope some way is found to stop people from falling for the Nazi ideology. It's sad and horrible that we're having this problem a mere 72 years after WW2. People truly do forget history (or outright deny it) so quickly.
nism0o3 · 0 points · Posted at 16:57:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think 90% or more of these Nazi's have no experience outside of their group and no education outside of high school. I doubt any of them traveled to other countries, met with people of different nationalities and thought, "Hey, these people all suck, I'm going to be a Nazi." Not to mention, I did most of my mental "growing up" during and after college. I became more open minded and educated myself on other cultures. I think these Nazis are in that same immature mindset of shitty high school kids, hating anything that's different or anything they don't understand.
[deleted] · 6 points · Posted at 16:15:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Super_Zac · 9 points · Posted at 16:20:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You're correct, but personally I don't believe "beating them to the punch" is the right way to go about it. AntiFa and the punch Nazi groups are also advocating directed violence, which makes them little better than those they oppose. Yes, if the Nazi scumbags are out there hurting people/committing violence, by all means break out the baseball bat. But if they are "peacefully" protesting/demonstrating, us instigating violence on them is just the wrong way to go about it IMHO.
[deleted] · -2 points · Posted at 16:26:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Super_Zac · 5 points · Posted at 16:28:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm not even saying you can, sadly. All I'm saying is that the violence against them (especially when it's instigated by us) isn't doing anything to change their minds, and is probably making them more resolved in their toxic ideology.
vacuousaptitude · -2 points · Posted at 18:21:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Do you actually believe using violence to stop genocide is 'little better' than genocide?
whydoyouask123 · 1 points · Posted at 19:13:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Exactly what genocide is currently happening for us to stop?
vacuousaptitude · 0 points · Posted at 19:34:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
These groups actively wish to ethnically cleanse north america. Read their forums and boards.
thecrazysloth · 7 points · Posted at 16:13:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Problem usually is that nazis are impervious to sound logic.
treesprite82 · 3 points · Posted at 18:14:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Debate is for the audience. You generally don't immediately convince the person you're arguing against, but it leaves an impression on bystanders who see the points and aren't too involved to reconsider their views.
Attacking someone physically usually does the opposite, pushing people towards sympathizing more with the person they saw get attacked.
vacuousaptitude · 0 points · Posted at 18:20:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah I mean where is the public square where I can debate a Nazi? Will they remain intellectually honest? Thing about these rightists is that they refuse to remain intellectually honest. They will suggest that attempting to stop their genocide is just as bad as their genocide. Worse even. Because free speech.
Super_Zac · 8 points · Posted at 16:23:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
True, but by bashing them over the head with knowledge isn't really intended to convince the staunchest of Nazi bigots. It's a war of ideologies, and if you can convince the weak minded followers before they fall for the Nazi lies, you have a victory.
nism0o3 · 0 points · Posted at 16:58:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I just think they are all scared because they don't understand and the frustrating part, they refuse to educate themselves.
Super_Zac · 2 points · Posted at 16:59:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Plus they actively ignore facts that are considered common sense by most.
KetzerMX · 0 points · Posted at 17:46:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Curious thing, the same could be said about a lot of people on the left. And there are a lot of videos showing right wingers trying to discus with them only for the leftist to shout insults and chant their slogans. Ever heard of the horseshoe theory?
Supermite · 6 points · Posted at 16:08:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Wow, I was advocating nonviolence in a fb thread praising someone for punching out a white supremacist. That person turned an otherwise peaceful protest violent by throwing a punch at someone advocating violence. He may have gotten knocked out, but that white supremacist won that day. I was the nazi. I was reminded people fought wars against nazis. I reminded them that those were supposed to be the wars to end all wars. Fuck it, let everyone duke it out. I'll be in the corner enjoying a few beers.
Thor_pool · 8 points · Posted at 16:36:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
They call for violence and then when the other side responds in kind they act like they're the peaceful innocents.
snacktivity · 3 points · Posted at 17:54:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's the ol westboro baptist method of protesting.
Supermite · 1 points · Posted at 18:01:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I am not saying they are not hippocrites. It is mind boggling that the side of "right" can't see that they also become hippocrites by responding in kind. I am not arguing for nazi-ism in any way. I am arguing against becoming what I hate. Violence is violence. As long ad they break no laws, they are sadly free to say whatever they want. As soon as you use their tactics against them and call for eradicating them and their viewpoint, how are we any different?
Thor_pool · 1 points · Posted at 18:27:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Im as left as they come, but responding to violence with violence back is self defense. Thats not hypocritical. Causing trouble at protest A because the other side caused trouble yesterday at protest 1? Sure. Seeing the other side get violent at a protest and responding in kind right there and then? Nah
PaulTheMerc · 1 points · Posted at 18:28:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
at what point do we admit that if sound logic had worked on them to begin with they wouldn't hold said position, especially for years?
shvelo · 1 points · Posted at 18:43:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Good look getting the densest motherfuckers on earth understand sound logic.
MidnightDaylight · 1 points · Posted at 19:38:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'll punch a nazi if they're legitimately being a nazi/violent/publicly hateful. But a white guy who doesn't think having dread locks is cultural appropriation? Not a nazi. People need to chill.
GallicanCourier · 1 points · Posted at 23:28:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
To come clean, I just wanna punch people sometimes. Nazis seem the most punchable.
elairah · 1 points · Posted at 18:07:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I can see it on both sides. On the one hand, trying to respond logically to someone who is actively denying your personhood, calling you a lower species, and maintaining that they are superior to you, is hard. You're being pretty seriously disrespected, and dignifying that kind of viciousness with a reasonable response can feel assbackwards. They aren't being reasonable, why should I? They're threatening violence to my person, why shouldn't I just hit them first?
On the other hand, responding to words with violence gets you painted as the unreasonable one. It can also pull the conversation away from "That guy's rhetoric is awful and insulting!" to "Hitting people is wrong!" And it seems like a great way to get a lawsuit for assault and battery.
snakeinahouseofcats · -3 points · Posted at 16:06:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
They've had their whole lives to gather sound logic, they just don't care. Rule 1 in life: don't be a nazi. These people broke that rule.
Super_Zac · 13 points · Posted at 16:15:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's a terrible rule to live by, and it's essential the same way Nazis see the world. I am superior group A and they are group B, rule 1 don't be group B or suffer death.
snacktivity · 1 points · Posted at 17:56:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well when group a wants everyone to be peaceful, and group b wants to kill everyone not in group b, there's bound to be some tension somewhere between the two.
mrfolider · -1 points · Posted at 16:42:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Nazis aren't inferior to everyone else. No one is. No one should be hurt because of their views.
snakeinahouseofcats · -1 points · Posted at 18:08:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You're literally defending Nazis. Stop.
mrfolider · 1 points · Posted at 18:33:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes I am. You're allowed to have any opinion you want.
LordHussyPants · 0 points · Posted at 16:43:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
90% of people don't understand that you can't refute illogical arguments with logic.
"The Earth is flat."
Refute that and make a flat earther believe otherwise. You can't. They will claim that science is an illusory tactic. The same applies to the Nazi argument. Their logic is founded in flawed science. They will cling to it, and will not be reasoned with. Reasoning with Nazis and letting them continue on with their lives is how World War II happened.
Super_Zac · 5 points · Posted at 16:52:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I fleshed out my position a little more farther down, but my idea is that if John Doe is on the fence about whether he believes the earth is flat or not, hearing sound logic being used against the uproar of idiocy may help convince John of the truth. So no, you aren't convincing the staunch flat-earthers, but you're winning the ideological war by robbing them of new followers.
TheMagnuson · 0 points · Posted at 17:59:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I want to agree with you, I really do, but life has taught me that you can't have a logical conversation with an emotional person.
The vast majority of human beings will nearly always choose emotion over logic. All you can hope to do is plant a seed and give them something to think about later, but no one is ever going to convince someone who's emotional about an issue through logical appeals.
allmhuran · 0 points · Posted at 18:26:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Precisely this. It demonstrates a failure of reason, and easily 90% of people seem unable to reason correctly, even if they had good educational opportunities, and even if they are perfectly decent people. Reasoning correctly is not easy.
What I don't understand is why it isn't the core focus of education. The rise of vocational training at high-school levels just baffles me.
throwaway4anger · -1 points · Posted at 18:19:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
because racists & bigots are so logical right? I'm sure if someone had just explained how illogical hitlers hatred of the jews was, he'd have apologized & thrown Hanukkah parties. Nah, you gotta make nazis afraid to reveal that they're nazis.
HowBouDah · -2 points · Posted at 17:10:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think most people get this. It probably is just very satisfying to punch a Nazi.
Super_Zac · 1 points · Posted at 17:12:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I wish most people understood that, but I've seen plenty of instances where people who disagreed with the punching thing were accused of being Nazis themselves.
And you're right, it probably is ridiculously satisfying.
HowBouDah · 1 points · Posted at 17:21:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah you are right. I have to be more careful saying "most people." The last year has shown me that i can't be confident saying that most people believe anything.
Super_Zac · 1 points · Posted at 17:23:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So many people can be completely moronic, but by the same token and to be more optimistic, some people may just surprise you.
yeaheyeah · 9 points · Posted at 16:28:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah you should never drive a car into protesters
CourierOfTheWastes · 2 points · Posted at 18:13:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
http://www.newsweek.com/richard-spencer-punch-nazi-ethicists-547277
mrfolider · 6 points · Posted at 16:43:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
willmaster123 · 3 points · Posted at 16:58:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think an important aspect to this is that many leftists are hyper aware of the normalization of fascism or authoritarianism and think of it more like a poison which seeps into people. They want to destroy it at the source by any means necessary, not argue with it, because they know that even though it is evil, it appeals to people VERY much.
Also, saying that its immature not to punch people you politically disagree with probably is true, but... that is also how the world has worked forever. People are angry, and they will act that way.
Matt1243 · 1 points · Posted at 18:11:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"It's not okay to shoot people you disagree with" -Jon Stewart
FrickinLazerBeams · 1 points · Posted at 19:44:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
True, but if that person is working towards genocide it's totally okay to punch them.
kcjg8 · 1 points · Posted at 07:32:31 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
its not tho. Just because someone is talking badly about you or another race does not give you permission to put hands, or be physically violent against them. Physical violence is never ok; and it should be admonished as an act an barbaric or more so than the views it is against
FrickinLazerBeams · 1 points · Posted at 15:21:10 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Completely agree, but I'm not talking about someone just saying mean stuff. You seem to be talking about a different circumstance.
ReallyForeverAlone · 1 points · Posted at 19:47:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's also not okay to silence or otherwise attempt to drown out the voice of someone you disagree with with your own words. Seems to be happening a lot lately as well.
Unfortunately, not enough people understand that the louder you are the less valid or strong your position appears (regardless of whether it is or not).
FuturePrimitive · 1 points · Posted at 20:04:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Does this "free speech" extend to open authoritarians who advocate for the stripping of liberties and for violence (both direct and indirect) against minorities and those who oppose their authoritarianism?
Abiogeneralization · 18 points · Posted at 16:09:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Only by your definition. Some people think of "freedom of speech" as a basic concept, not just as defined by the First Amendment in the United States.
redwall_hp · 9 points · Posted at 17:49:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The philosophical notion of "freedom of speech" long predates the US constitution. Some people thought it was important enough to codify it into law as something the government specifically cannot infringe upon...because they already considered it an important principle.
That first step of a law doesn't hold up in the modern world, though. Back then, political speech consisted of printing pamphlets and signs, word of mouth, etc.. Now we live in a world where talking to one or more people typically involves a chain of private companies. When the modern equivalent of tacking a message into the town square's bulletin board involves sending data from a device across an ISP's line, through a chain of servers owned by different companies, and then being hosted on an Internet forum owned by another company, we've reached quite a problem. You effectively can't have free expression if any expression that is unpopular or damaging to a moneyed interest can be causally removed by the private company hosting it or even blocked by the ones transmitting it. (Imagine if Comcast decided they wanted to block content supporting abortion or flag burning or whatever hot button topic you might want to read up on. That's incidentally part of the network neutrality issue, preventing carriers from interfering with traffic and treating them as common carriers, but that's another topic.)
Now the government has officially privatised censorship. If you assume that wealthy people who fund campaigns also have connections in the press and with companies that host or carry discussion, it's not a stretch of the imagination to realise that political discourse can now be curated and censored by those same parties without running afoul of the first amendment.
Let's say a president who starts an unpopular war (let's say people are split along partisan lines on it) wants to stop some damaging criticism from spreading like wildfire. Wouldn't it be convenient if their buddy who owns a popular social media company quietly suppressed mentions to it? Or if their campaign backer who owns a few media outlets agreed to not run stories critical of it? Or if a major web hosting company decided they'd cancel contracts with groups running anti-war sites. Or if an ISP decided they'd filter content critical of the administration.
Scary? Well, that's basically the world we live in, with the exception of ISPs not flexing their muscles yet. (They're still fighting network neutrality and getting people accustomed to the new status quo.) And even if you don't care for targets it's used against now, the constant risk is that tides turn. What's popular to censor now won't always be what's censored. Some day, it might be an issue you care about. That's why the fight for freedom of speech is often phrased as "I may not agree with you, but I agree you have a right to say it." Because otherwise you can't have a democracy.
tvdinner4me · 1 points · Posted at 20:16:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So what do you mean by it as a basic concept? Should you be able to say whatever you want whenever you want? Should you be able to say something in my house/business without fear of being kicked out/fired? Should I be forced to listen to you, and accept your point of view?
I just don't get what people mean by fos as an ideal, as everyway I look at it, it infringes upon my rights of free speech as an ideal in an equal way.
I don't mean to be rude, I genuinely want to know
Abiogeneralization · 1 points · Posted at 20:35:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Very nearly. Don't yell "FIRE!" when there isn't one. Don't say "I'm about to physically attack you!" unless that's justified.
No - just make sure you kick them out gently or call the police if they won't leave.
No. It's freedom of speech not mandate of hearing.
7thgradet3acher · 12 points · Posted at 17:17:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
ITT people who don't believe in freedom of speech
CourierOfTheWastes · 6 points · Posted at 18:18:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you don't believe in freedom of speech for points of view you disagree with, then you don't believe in freedom of speech.
ythl · 3 points · Posted at 19:14:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So basically large swaths of the left don't believe in the freedom of speech
CourierOfTheWastes · 2 points · Posted at 20:00:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When you put political leanings over epistemic responsibility, then you'll eventually always end up refusing freedom of speech.
We always knew that freedom of speech doesn't matter to the right, that they cry freedom of speech when it's in their favour and not when it's not. That which we defined as not believing in freedom of speech.
It's worrying to me that the left is starting to act the same way. Yes. Large swaths of the left would wipe their ass with human rights if it applied to something they didn't like. They've leveled the playing field with the right, with the alt-right, and now the right is using that playing field to gather support.
You know how super heroes sometimes fall from good, then create powerful enemies, Spider-Man using the black suit, which created Carnage in the end?
The Nazis are gaining power because they say that they're victimized, that no one will tell them they're wrong, just tell them to shut up with words or fists "because they know we're right, so they can't argue, they can only try to suppress us."
And the left? They're making every one of those accusations seem true.
I_swallow_watermelon · 1 points · Posted at 20:21:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
majority of western world is against free speech nowadays, it's not like they make it a secret, some just try to downplay it
7thgradet3acher · 0 points · Posted at 20:16:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not basically, absolutely
ythl · 5 points · Posted at 19:09:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Political party X takes over and decides it needs to change the narrative on certain issues or minorities. It convinces a bunch of large companies that going against the party line is hate speech and to terminate and destroy the careers of anyone who does. Government washes its hands and end goal still achieved: speech suppression.
frogandbanjo · 7 points · Posted at 16:39:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It actually is. You just don't understand that the 1st Amendment isn't a blanket and absolute protection of speech, and instead believe that "Freedom of Speech" and "the exact strictures of the 1st Amendment" are identical.
Thankfully you're on a website where tons of people suffer under the same misapprehension - or have a vested interest in forwarding it - so you're likely going to be spared the consequences of your ignorance.
Sarioth · 2 points · Posted at 17:53:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm not following this line of thought. You see freedom of speech as the right to say whatever and not ever be met with criticism or retaliation, which in and of itself would suggest that at least one person's expression would be curtailed?
nefftron · 11 points · Posted at 16:05:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Actually it pretty much is. Is gay rights only about getting rid of laws that target gays, or is it about creating a society where it's socially acceptable to be gay? I'd say it's the latter. Even if you don't try to repeal the First Amendment, if you try to ruin the lives of people who have minority viewpoints, I'd say you are anti-free speech. You don't actually see value in letting people freely express what they think, and want to encourage silence instead.
Sarioth · -2 points · Posted at 17:55:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Freedom of speech is meant to support a marketplace of ideas. The theory is that the best ones win out over time. That, by necessity, means that some ideas need to be filtered out via the backlash they garner, which is itself another form of speech.
nefftron · 11 points · Posted at 18:29:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Widespread criticism is all the backlash they need. Not letting somebody get a job is just exerting power by non-governmental means.
Sarioth · 1 points · Posted at 19:47:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Is action not also speech? Is an employer not making a statement by firing an employee they see as having unfavorable viewpoints?
nefftron · 1 points · Posted at 20:06:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Action is not speech, unless you think banning blacks from your restaurant is a form of freedom of speech.
Sarioth · 1 points · Posted at 21:10:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Action is speech is my view, as people use action to express their viewpoint on everyday life. Banning blacks would be a form of speech, as it signals to the world that you hold a specific viewpoint. The same way in which a silent sit in at said restaurant is speech, there are no words, but action clearly conveying a message.
Here's the point I'm trying to make. By putting an arbitrary cutoff point for when speech should be free, you're indirectly restricting speech:
Person A: "I hold x viewpoint."
Person B: "Well, I hold y viewpoint."
Person A: "I find this unacceptable, and I'm deciding to tell others you hold this unacceptable viewpoint and further bar anyone that holds this view from entering my private property."
You seem to want to stop speech after person B responds, but this by necessity limits person A's ability to speak based on some sliding scale test of how much it will affect person B. How would you enforce this in society? Can you account for all stakeholders in your rule?
SCPendolino · 11 points · Posted at 15:32:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Granted, "Muh Free Speech" should not be used as a get-out-of-jail-free-card. However, there should still be some freedom after speech. Also, reacting with violence is never good.
Any response to idiotic speech should be also verbal. Not legal or violent.
Maleoppressor · 2 points · Posted at 17:44:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Who decides the criteria to when said consequences should be applied? And how are you so certain they are appropriate? I find that the definition of hate has become so wide that playing piano could fit in.
CourierOfTheWastes · 4 points · Posted at 18:21:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Your rights end where mine begins.
And I don't have the "right" to feel comfortable.
Maleoppressor · 2 points · Posted at 18:30:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You're mistaking it for "your rights end where my feelings begin". If feelings had more weight than objectively verified facts, then the legal system would be reduced to kindergarten levels.
Now, I'm not trying to forbid them from feeling whatever they will. But if they want to punish the "offender", there must be a more concrete argument than "I don't like it" and a hundred -ists/-phobics.
CourierOfTheWastes · 1 points · Posted at 18:39:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I agree with you.
I was trying to make the same exact point, but you said it with tonnes more clarity.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:57:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Depends on what the consequences are.
I_swallow_watermelon · 1 points · Posted at 20:18:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
being free to do something implies no consequences by definition though, if there are consequences you are not free to do it
UncreativeTeam · 1 points · Posted at 17:47:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Freedom of Speech (in the US) protects citizens from the government. It means the government cannot prevent you from assembly or from speaking your mind (even flag burning is protected). But even that has confines. What you say can't be harmful to others (e.g. inciting violence/hate crimes) or illegal. If you're not in public, then freedom of speech doesn't apply.
CourierOfTheWastes · 4 points · Posted at 18:22:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's not just the government's job to respect your freedom of speech by not preventing you from using it.
It's also their job to protect your freedom of speech.
So if you're burning the flag, saying gays are people, or spouting Nazi ideology, and someone punches you in the face, and the government ignores it instead of trying to prevent it or criminally charge the assault and batterer, then your rights are being violated still.
1998_2009_2016 · 2 points · Posted at 18:25:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No, the first amendment of the constitution protects you from the government. Freedom of speech is an abstract principle that the first amendment was designed to support, by stating that the government wouldn't come after you for your speech.
Other institutions can support freedom of speech by saying they won't pursue punishments for speech or actively censor people that they have power over, just like the US government has. Or not, depending on what they want to do. No organization has to be pro-free-speech, and most aren't, because they value a particular message more than having a 'marketplace of ideas' or an open forum.
edit: We also have 'freedom of religion' in the US, but that has become much more broad than 'freedom of speech' where discrimination based on religion is prohibited for private orgs as well. We have 'freedom of association' but that actually isn't in the constitution explicitly, only added in case law. My point being that the actual legal realities are different than the general principles.
doublestitch · -3 points · Posted at 14:55:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This one should be much higher on the page.
m50d · -10 points · Posted at 15:36:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes it is. That's exactly what it means. Even people in North Korea are free to say whatever they like - they're just not free from consequences after that. Is that the kind of freedom you want?
ncalder17 · 12 points · Posted at 15:46:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"Congress shall make no law...[]...abridging the freedom of speech..."
You're free from direct repercussions from the Government, to an extent (threatening someone or inciting violence isn't included, for example). That doesn't mean your employer can't fire your ass for dropping the N-word at work or posting an anti-Semitic rant on Facebook.
screenwriterjohn · -7 points · Posted at 16:14:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If a black guy says niggah, can he be fired? Something to think about.
[deleted] · 9 points · Posted at 16:34:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That will depend entirely on corporate policy but most of the time yes. They will absolutely be fired.
Shuk247 · 8 points · Posted at 16:54:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Have you ever worked in a professional environment?
screenwriterjohn · 1 points · Posted at 22:00:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yep. But too many black Americans can't because they can't use any n word variant. That's a shame too.
98785258 · 11 points · Posted at 16:35:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Um yes? He could totally be fired. What are you implying?
screenwriterjohn · 1 points · Posted at 21:53:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Moral relativism is bumping into anti-racism rules.
Soundch4ser · 0 points · Posted at 17:19:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is true, but silencing that speech is never the solution.
emperorhirohito · -3 points · Posted at 16:42:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Except to an extent it is. If I live under a dictatorship and I'm arrested for criticising the government has my freedom of speech been undermined? Obviously yes. But that is still a consequence of my speech.
CourierOfTheWastes · 1 points · Posted at 18:20:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's not an ethical consequence. It's a consequence to speech you don't have the freedom to have.
emperorhirohito · 1 points · Posted at 18:27:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oh so non-ethical infringements via consequences are okay? Tell me who gets the decide what is and isn't an ethical infringement of freedom of speech?
CourierOfTheWastes · 1 points · Posted at 18:41:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Infringement of people's rights is not ok.
And there needs to be a categorical difference consulted to decide, not just the subjective judgements of a human.
emperorhirohito · 2 points · Posted at 18:44:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ethics are inherently subjective but that isn't the point I was originally making. The original post was that freedom of speech is not freedom from consequence. I used an example to show that is untrue.
[deleted] · 109 points · Posted at 17:21:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Kronos_PRIME · 5 points · Posted at 18:55:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How many pieces of flare do you want?
wolfgirlnaya · 5 points · Posted at 19:18:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I just had a lengthy conversation today with my supervisor about how his method of management is indescribably better than the micromanagement method that his boss wants him to use.
If you trust and respect your employees, they will act like adults and manage their work on their own. If you act like you don't trust your employees to do anything without direct supervision and guidance, then you aren't even giving them the choice to manage their own work, so of course they won't.
SlackR76 · 50 points · Posted at 17:40:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You don't have to be a dick on the internet to other people...
CrazyCatHuman · 4 points · Posted at 20:09:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Asshole
cholondo · 6 points · Posted at 18:45:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Eff you :)
SadGhoster87 · 1 points · Posted at 02:39:46 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
As an aside, isn't it amazing how people have started getting nicer due to wholesome memes?
[deleted] · 23 points · Posted at 14:29:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That concrete takes a long time to be placed because there is a specific waiting period for it to reach its maximum strength.
lol-community · 16 points · Posted at 16:44:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It can actually be placed rather quickly. It's th whole needing to cure thing that causes it to take awhile before use.
xxjxxx · 24 points · Posted at 16:10:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A lot of people don't seem to understand what progressive taxation is. I hear some people say shit like "It is better to be earning 49,999 instead of 50,000 since you will get taxed less." No that's not how it works. Your first 45,828 will get taxed on by 15% (Canada), the excess will fall into the second bracket in which it will get taxed at the rate of that bracket. Don't have the income tax act on me right now to know what that rate is but you get the point.
IDidntDoItArgh · 5 points · Posted at 16:21:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
but if you make over a certain amount you no longer get freebies like free food and free healthcare and free housing so it makes sense not to make too much money.
xxjxxx · 4 points · Posted at 16:49:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In Canada? No you get free healthcare regardless.
And again this is what I mean with this flawed mentality. People think accounting is all about "HARD" cut-offs. That is probably the most ignorant way to think about the profession. If, lets say for example, you get free housing if your income is below 15,000. Let's say you're making 14,999 a year. They aren't going to boot you out if suddenly you made 15,002 in one certain year, since that 3 dollars will do jack shit to your quality of life (maybe buy you an additional iced-coffee every year). That just doesn't make any sense. However, if the situation changed, let's say they got a WHOLE NEW JOB that paid a lot more, let's say 25k/yr or 30k/yr, then the situation would be different.
perfidius · 6 points · Posted at 17:36:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I wouldn't be so certain, actually. If you make over the threshold, a government could use that as an excuse to kick you out of free housing in order to make room for someone making, say, $10k/yr with minor children.
xxjxxx · 2 points · Posted at 18:21:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Potentially yes. But again it is the situation that counts, family vs. 1 person. It is a complicated matter, but this topic is digressing from my point; which was, generally, people do not know what progressive taxation is. I don't want to discuss further since it is turning into a discussion of U.S. policy, which I know nothing of since I am in Canada.
ed_on_reddit · 5 points · Posted at 17:49:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There are things like the Pell Grant in the US. Its an income based award, with a minimum amount of $600. So, if your Estimated Family Contribution is right on the edge, and you do something as as simple as dropping an extra $20 into your savings account, you could lose out on the $600 in grant money.
PassTheCurry · 260 points · Posted at 15:58:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That retail stores don't magically have your product ready to go for you "in the back". It's all a mess back there and I'm not gonna unpack the pallets for just you.
BrandSluts · 36 points · Posted at 18:00:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
One time a walmart associate went to the truck while it was unloading to get me three bricks of 22lr when it was hard as hell to find on shelves due to hoarders and scalpers. I will always be forever grateful to that guy.
Sybre · 5 points · Posted at 19:56:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Who the hell scalps and hoards .22lr? It's considered the most common ammo today.
BrandSluts · 3 points · Posted at 21:15:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This happened in 2015 or so and I am in AZ so lots of shooters around. At the time there was a big demand increase on 22lr which drove prices up. The best price I could get from private sale was 6cpr and you had to line up early on stocking days to get any at retail. Those who lined up would try to resell for 8-10 cpr as shelves were perpetually bare. Amidst this high demand situation for someone to go out of their way for me like that really touched my heart.
Sybre · 2 points · Posted at 21:39:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I do gotta say that is pretty awesome, though it definitely is shocking that out of all rounds, the 22lr was the one out of stock.
BrandSluts · 1 points · Posted at 22:43:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Centerfire ammo can be reloaded by anyone with components and relatively simple equipment but rimfire needs to be factory manufactured. The manufacturing capacity had not caught up to the demand resulting in the shortage. More supply less demand and relatively high cpr means little to no scalping on centerfire ammo while 22lr is the complete opposite. For some numbers comparison: 22lr 4cpr to 6cpr is 50% markup. For 9mm @ 25cpr 50% increase means 37cpr which is approx. 45acp prices and no one would pay that when it and its components are available.
If stores don't have it in your area keep an eye on /r/gundeals and online suppliers. Recently got a bunch of 22lr for 4cpr (prepanic price)
milkfactory · 4 points · Posted at 21:02:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Obama was gonna take away their guns.
Hyndis · 1 points · Posted at 21:53:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Why in the world is 22lr so scarce? Its the most common round on the planet. Its small, cheap, easy to manufacture and you get a ton of them in a single box.
Yet they seem so rare its as if they're made out of unicorn horn and bigfoot fur.
BrandSluts · 1 points · Posted at 22:49:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
See my reply to the other guy but the short answer is demand outpaced supply because of the specialized production needs of rimfire vs centerfire manufacturing.
undercooked_lasagna · 18 points · Posted at 16:56:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah well you had better fucking find an XL back there or I'm gonna take my $6 to Kohl's
Petersaber · 12 points · Posted at 18:14:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well, there were a few times where I simply asked if what I wanted could be "in the back", and the item in question was found rather quickly. It happens sometimes. Maybe they were moving stuff around between shelves, or a new boxes came in and were opened, but not yet distributed, etc etc.
It never hurts to ask, as long as you are polite and understand that your chances of getting the item are low.
TheShadowKick · 2 points · Posted at 20:57:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I used to work at Walmart. Whenever we quickly found something "in the back" it was mostly dumb luck. The product happened to be somewhere noticeably and easily reached.
Sometimes it would actually be scanned into the inventory system, in which case we had a record of exactly where it was stored. On rare occasions it was actually stored where the record said it should be. That can also be the cause of a speedy product find.
Eric_Snowmane · 8 points · Posted at 18:30:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My boss and I were on the floor doing some cleaning, and a customer insisted we "check the back". Most of the time, we explain that things are in poorly labeled boxes from the DC, and we can't easily just check the back. More often than not, we find what we find and stock more on accident than out of deliberately looking for it. Doesn't stop that odd customer every so often from being insistent about going in the back.
We don't have things magically available, but the boss always said, "go twiddle your thumbs or something and pretend to look, then apologize and say you couldn't find it a few minutes later".
I can't speak for other stores, but there were plenty of times where we "went in the back" and just stepped out the back door to have a cigarette and bullshit for five minutes.
I am a person pleaser, and I enjoy going out of my way to find ways to help a customer, but sometimes it's just not viable to shift freight for 20 minutes to find and access a specific type of cereal that you know is near the back wall.
Elaborate_vm_hoax · 1 points · Posted at 19:10:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
These people were the worst, who no matter what insisted you go look. The shittier they got about it the longer I'd spend back there doing nothing in particular.
Ganonderf · 23 points · Posted at 16:04:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's worked for me before. That's how I got a Wii when they were supposedly all sold out.
CatNigga · 19 points · Posted at 17:16:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Probably because retail worker Tim is new or performing poorly and needs to satisfy the customer... by any means necessary... 😉
[deleted] · 29 points · Posted at 18:37:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Or you know...Being nice? I worked retail for a few years and if you asked nicely enough and i had free time, i'd go back there to get what you needed. But according to reddit it's because im forced or im a retard. Got it.
NelsonG114 · 11 points · Posted at 19:04:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Seriously I see this all the time. "There's nothing ever in the back, get tf over yourself". I've done this plenty of times at different retailers and it's worked. At game stop, sears, Macy's, whatever. Why am I an asshole for wanting to spend my money at a retailer and asking if they may have a size that's not up front? Jeez the retail circle jerk on reddit is quite annoying sometimes.
TheShadowKick · 3 points · Posted at 20:58:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
At Walmart I was never forced into giving good customer service. I just did it, because I'm going to be there for eight hours anyway so I may as well make my interactions with customers pleasant.
CatNigga · 5 points · Posted at 18:41:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Good. 👍🏽
mundozeo · 18 points · Posted at 16:51:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It doesn't hurt to ask though. Maybe in the particular store I am, for the particular item I'm looking for, they might actually be able to get one for me.
Elaborate_vm_hoax · 6 points · Posted at 19:06:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Maybe, but when someone tells you they don't have more in the back, do not insist that they go look... those people end up waiting forever for no reason.
PC509 · 5 points · Posted at 18:34:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When I worked retail... yes, we did. We purposely kept hot items back there so the customer would come to us and ask if we had any in the back. "Well, let me go check!". And when we magically come out, we have the item. They are so excited! We sell less that way, as the customer has to ask, but it's worth it to see that smile like it was Christmas morning.
(/s, just in case).
[deleted] · 9 points · Posted at 17:19:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
RichardRogers · 15 points · Posted at 18:18:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes it is. And they are busy doing their job restocking the items that have already been unpacked. The item you asked for might be in a box in the back or it might not have been received yet, and it could literally take hours to open everything and find out.
fraulien_buzz_kill · 5 points · Posted at 19:24:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Okay I worked retain at a huge store where we had, basically, gigantic shelves filled with every item in store that wouldn't fit on the shelves so 9 times out of 10 we did have it in the back, and could check pretty easily with the scanner to see how many were back there and where. Everything got restocked night and sometimes morning, plus during store hours intermittently, but we still ran out of stuff on the floor. Plus there was almost always somebody in the back we could radio, "he, can you grab xyz in a medium." I guess this wasn't common?
RichardRogers · 1 points · Posted at 19:46:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Actually most places probably do let you check whether it's inventory, but if it's not in overstock then you'd still have to open boxes.
TheShadowKick · 1 points · Posted at 21:32:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I worked at Walmart for three years. Your store sounds amazing.
We had the gigantic shelves too. But many people were lazy about scanning things into the inventory, or about making sure things were put where the inventory said they were. So looking for something in the back was a matter of checking several dozen pallets worth of stuff at best.
Our store was supposed to work like your store but in practice it never did.
bwave1 · 9 points · Posted at 18:20:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The stuff in the back is called "force-outs", it's when corporate goes to Vlasic and says, hey how much for a jar of pickles? $2.25!? Ok, how many would we have to buy to get down to $1 a jar? 100,000? (bob, how many jars of pickles we sell a month? 1,000?) Sure 100,000 sounds great send them along!
Then a few truckloads of pickles show up to the warehouse and they have no room for them, so then they send 2 full PALLETS of pickles to Store #628 in Stanky Cooch, PA who sells like 10 jars a month. And so they put the pallets in the backroom, and there they will sit until the store burns down 20 years from now.
So, the backroom is just full of this stuff that will never, ever sell, that is beyond full out front, has extra displays out front, etc.
Never is there a product that's sold out, out front that is in the back. Product is ordered every day to replenish and full case is put out when can, otherwise, it's up above the shelf, but not in the back.
Lesp00n · 2 points · Posted at 20:40:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You worked in a much better organized place than I did. At the grocery store I worked for it was like a 50/50 shot on if we really did have more. Too bad for those customers it was likely on a pallet way the hell up on a rack and only the overnight stockers even bothered to touch those unless it was the holiday season.
Petersaber · 5 points · Posted at 18:14:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sometimes there are too many items (and shoppers), and not enough people.
nononowaitok · -1 points · Posted at 18:40:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
let me help you with this one, usually, and especially when you ask, there are too many items and people, and half the staff has already called out sick so they can stay home and play video games or visit their cousin in jail.
Chappies89 · 2 points · Posted at 23:53:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ok, I get that. From a customer point of view, we're just thinking that nobody has realized that the shelf is empty so it's worth a shot.
Fezzic5 · 3 points · Posted at 18:34:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Usually there is a set of people whos job it is to specifically restock from the warehouse.
If the store has enough employees the floor can usually stay mostly stocked.
syriquez · 3 points · Posted at 18:35:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes. But the point is that the stockroom isn't a magical refilling station. If there is a high demand item you want and it's not out on the floor, the store doesn't have it. Why? Because it would be out on the floor being sold not sitting idle in the stockroom. If a shelf is empty at 10AM on a high demand product, it's because there aren't any in the back and will not be any until tomorrow at the earliest.
If a product is high demand, the system will generate a high priority pull that is then fulfilled by the stockroom worker that then sets it out for a salesfloor employee to work (or work it themselves if appropriate--often not since their job is to pull shit from the stockroom storage). If the product is exceptionally high demand, there may be a rotating system where the pulls don't stop and a team is assigned to constantly replenish (you can see this in action at a GM store that has grocery when a major holiday comes up like the Fourth of July and fresh grill meats are on large discounts). Or it may be communicated by radio that the pull is immediately addressed. Otherwise, normal demand or low demand pulls are generated as necessary and sit idle until a salesfloor employee has the time or opportunity to address it. Generally, those things are going to be items in household goods or other similar areas--pillows and towels can sit with an empty spot on the shelf for a few hours and nobody will care. It's a bit more dire that stuff like shampoo or cereal are filled before the store opens because that's the stuff people come in right away to buy.
It is extremely unusual for a shelf to be empty despite having inventory available in a properly functioning store. NOT TO SAY IT DOESN'T HAPPEN (mostly as a result of lazy employees stocking product incorrectly leading to improper overstocking which fucks with the computer system that controls it all), but the odds of inventory just sitting idle in the back to an empty shelf is extremely tiny. And those odds shrink even more when you start increasing the demand of the item. So your Elmo doll or whatever stupid Christmas fad item you're hunting that has an empty shelf is hilariously unlikely to just be sitting "in the back".
Realistically, the stuff that actually IS sitting "in the back" with an empty shelf on the salesfloor is your mundane shit in large quantities like paper towels and toilet paper. That is probably the one major exception to the rule of asking an employee if something is available "in the back". More likely than not, there is probably a pallet of your asswipe sitting 20 feet in the air.
But the Elmo doll? Nope, functionally zero chance.
PassTheCurry · 1 points · Posted at 20:05:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Exactly. People want shampoo and shit from the back. The problem is that the small shampoo box is packed in one of 15 large pallets and may be underneath a huge pallet or in the middle. I am not wasting my time to do that. That's for the overnight shift people.
PassTheCurry · 7 points · Posted at 17:26:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
We have the extras in overstock directly above the items on the floor. Otherwise they think we're someone hiding them in "the back"
Aanar · 1 points · Posted at 19:11:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes, but about the only way it's going to be in the back is if you hit the narrow window of time where the item in question has gotten through receiving and we've simply haven't gotten that item back on the shelf yet. If you happen to be asking the department head that places the orders, they already know if it's back or not but customers don't believe them if they say no.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:05:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
ingloriousbaxtr · 1 points · Posted at 20:53:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
yup. Soda vendor here. If something a customer wants is at the top of the pallet I will happily get it for them, but when I have a load going into a store it takes a few hours to get everything down stacked, stocked, and organized.
trippin113 · 3 points · Posted at 17:13:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This had always drove me crazy. I've been in both furniture and appliances and both are simply showrooms. The warehouses that store this cap are off site and MILLIONS of square feet.
wolfgirlnaya · 2 points · Posted at 19:00:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Some places don't even have a "back." I've had a customer at one point absolutely demand that I check "the back" for more of an item, ignoring both that we didn't have any more on hand and that we didn't actually have a "back." I walked to our receiving area, chatted with my boss for a few minutes, then returned and let them know that, unfortunately, we did not have any more of that item "in the back."
I hate working retail.
Stupendoes · 2 points · Posted at 19:17:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My old job was a pool store and pool customers think they're entitled to follow you into the back and stare at you until you start to go through every box/pallet.
Worked 9 years of retail through high school and college. Pool stores easily have the worst clientele.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:48:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When I worked retail I didn't mind this, it got me off the floor
SLIMgravy585 · 2 points · Posted at 21:53:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The retail store I work at does not even have a back. We still say we will check the back for you, because some how that makes customers less mad than just telling them there is no back
darwin2500 · 1 points · Posted at 19:29:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I've had someone find me something in the back on 3 separate occasions. Sometimes it works.
nullKomplex · 1 points · Posted at 19:38:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't know if they were just pandering to those types of people or not but I have the inverse going on: I get retail workers that are like "I can check the back if you'd like" or sometimes don't even ask and go "I'll go check in the back" without me mentioning anything. It's super weird.
PassTheCurry · 1 points · Posted at 19:39:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Nah we use that just to chill in the back for a min while you think we're actually doing something and then we just come out and tell you no
Dascandy · 1 points · Posted at 20:10:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I will ask if they know if it's on a current shipment, and then I'll return later that day for it if I really need it.
datchilla · 1 points · Posted at 21:23:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Then why when I called the store did they said they not only had canned coconut cream but had a whole case of it only to find out there's none when I show up?
Really supermarkets are ran so poorly it blows my mind. Everyone drops the ball continously until a manager or corporate cracks a whip over the intercom. When no one is responsible you'll get customers doing whatever they can to get what they want and get the fuck out. That includes badgering you about what is and isn't in the back.
giver_of_the_snark · -1 points · Posted at 18:12:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's how we trick you into seeing your arse
CatNigga · -4 points · Posted at 17:15:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Truest words...
ThePhixius · 23 points · Posted at 17:23:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Blinkers aren't an optional add on for your car; use them.
wrong_assumption · 2 points · Posted at 18:15:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In BMWs, they are. You have to pay for the Polite Wuss add-on package to get blinkers.
CatchingRays · 357 points · Posted at 14:41:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That carbs shouldn't make up 50% of your diet. We were all raised to follow the old, now withdrawn, food pyramid. It came with an explosion in obesity and diabetes. Farmers feed their stock carbs to fatten them up before slaughter.
Meanwhile, people still think eating fat will kill them early. It's quite the opposite. The government took the pyramid away, but didn't do anything to reeducate the public. Slooooooowly doctors are starting to reeducate, but most folks still believe these old dietary guidelines.
[deleted] · 286 points · Posted at 16:29:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The enemy is sugar. Period. If everybody were to dramatically cut down their sugar content, they'd be happier, slimmer, and healthier in general.
We consume an absurd amount of sugar. It's causing diabetes, obesity, it's fucking with our happiness by reducing our serotonin levels over time. It's fine in moderation like most things but sugar consumption is out of control.
Not really sure why this is being downvoted. If you don't think I'm correct, then you're mistaken.
[deleted] · 73 points · Posted at 16:59:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Rising_Swell · 13 points · Posted at 19:00:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Juice is shit too, most juices have the same amount of sugar as standard coke. Most cordials have as much too, flavoured milk? yeah, still over 10%.
SelkciPlum · 1 points · Posted at 20:03:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Juice with pulp is not as bad though. Juice with high fiber (pulp) cuts down on the effect that the sugar has on your glycemic index.
Rising_Swell · 4 points · Posted at 20:13:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's still a lot of sugar, and not as bad does not mean it's good.
SelkciPlum · -3 points · Posted at 20:26:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Right, we should all never consume fruit ever. Moderation is for cucks, and so is sugar.
Rising_Swell · 2 points · Posted at 20:42:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
At which point did i say never consume it?
SelkciPlum · 1 points · Posted at 20:53:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
At which point did I say you said never consume it?
ER_nesto · 2 points · Posted at 23:06:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
~ /u/SelkciPlum 2017
Rising_Swell · 0 points · Posted at 21:05:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You literally just said we should all never consume fruit ever. Right after the first word you typed, it's right there obviously.
SelkciPlum · 1 points · Posted at 21:06:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's what I said. I asked where I said that you said never consume it.
Rising_Swell · 1 points · Posted at 21:09:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I asked where i said that, because you are acting as if it is something I said, stop being a stupid cunt, hey?
SelkciPlum · 1 points · Posted at 21:11:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
WTF man, I was agreeing with you that sugar is bad. That's why I said we should never consume fruit. Cause moderation is for cucks! and so is sugar!
PM_ME_YOUR_APP_IDEA · 5 points · Posted at 19:43:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you’re American, I understand. Everything there tastes like sugar. No wonder that a lot of people there are obese.
growlingbear · 4 points · Posted at 19:56:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Where are you from? Because America is not the only country with a weight problem.
PM_ME_YOUR_APP_IDEA · 4 points · Posted at 19:58:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Belgium. There are some fatties here, but it’s much easier here to buy fresh foods and keep a healthy lifestyle than it is in the US.
growlingbear · 3 points · Posted at 19:59:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No it's not. It's very easy to do here. People are just lazy.
anachronic · 1 points · Posted at 20:31:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Have you ever been to the US? There are supermarkets everywhere, stocked with tons of fresh food. You can be as healthy as you want. A lot of people are just lazy and come up with all sorts of excuses for why they make bad choices.
Pyrux · 0 points · Posted at 20:03:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
isn't belgium the country with the current record for most burgers being bought/eaten?
PM_ME_YOUR_APP_IDEA · 2 points · Posted at 20:21:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Lol don’t think so. Maybe most fries, as it is our national dish. But burgers, probably not.
kinder-egg · 1 points · Posted at 20:11:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah but the only countries fatter than the US are a handful of tiny islands in the pacific, and the UAE for some reason.
anachronic · 1 points · Posted at 20:32:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Check out Mexico, dude.
kinder-egg · 0 points · Posted at 20:42:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Unless you're counting vacationing Americans, Mexico isn't even in the top 20. USA is somewhere around #8-18, depending on where you look. And that's Ms. Dude to you. ;)
anachronic · 2 points · Posted at 21:41:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I did some googling and yup, you are correct.
For some reason I remember reading that Mexico had a similar rate of obesity to the US a while ago. I guess that was not correct. Or maybe it was about sugar intake or something else.
TIL. Thanks.
cmitch3087 · 1 points · Posted at 01:52:16 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Mexican American's are at higher risk. Maybe that is what you heard?
dankerific · 11 points · Posted at 18:05:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Alot of foods do actually need some sugar though
e9r0q2eropqweopo · 10 points · Posted at 18:46:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If a food doesn't taste good without added sugar I find a different food. Cereal, granola bars, crackers, weird squishy white bread--I just don't eat them anymore.
I do eat desserts, but at least those are supposed to have sugar. Most people are already used to eating desserts in moderation.
dankerific · 3 points · Posted at 21:50:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yea I was talking of more of in recipes etc. Somethings need sugar to be made correctly. I'm not promoting just blatantly throwing extra sugar on things ha.
e9r0q2eropqweopo · 1 points · Posted at 23:19:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oh yeah, that's true!
anachronic · -1 points · Posted at 20:30:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Speak for yourself. I don't like sweet anything.
dankerific · 1 points · Posted at 21:48:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I have. That's great for you. Sorry you were offended?!
SuggestiveDetective · 3 points · Posted at 20:03:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I made plain oats in milk the other day for breakfast. My partner asked if it was gross, tried it, and was surprised there was no sugar. Just oats. He'd never even tried them before because ew, oatmeal. Many foods are surprisingly sweet without sugars added. Canned peaches have added corn syrup, ffs, and they're one of the sweetest natural foods there is.
[deleted] · 5 points · Posted at 20:06:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
SuggestiveDetective · 3 points · Posted at 20:15:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I was raised not-in-America, and when I moved here normal foods were making me sick. I started cutting things out thinking I had an allergy. Reading labels is what made me realize just how much sugar is added to things I was eating plain elsewhere.
kinder-egg · 1 points · Posted at 20:14:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You're not wrong though, carrots are one of the veggies with the highest sugar content.
kinder-egg · 3 points · Posted at 20:13:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When I cut down my sugar intake, it blew me away when I started tasting the sweetness in foods. Milk, for instance. Even water started to taste sweeter.
trustthepudding · 1 points · Posted at 19:34:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ugh its so bad in the south too. Seems like they put sugar in every damn meal whenever I go out to eat. Even ethnic food places fall victim to it!
eazolan · 7 points · Posted at 17:27:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I've been making home made lemonade to use up the bottle of lemon juice in my fridge.
Step 1, about a half cup of sugar...
anachronic · 1 points · Posted at 20:32:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ugh.
I don't know how anyone drinks sweet drinks. After a few sips, it's disgusting.
My go to drink is seltzer with lemon.
[deleted] · 5 points · Posted at 19:42:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The only diet change I've made in the past year was reducing sugar consumption and the effects are quite noticeable
[deleted] · 13 points · Posted at 18:19:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sugar is a carb.
And many refined carbs- refined wheat, white rice- is just as bad as sugar.
[deleted] · 4 points · Posted at 18:39:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes, but the difference is that most people aren't overeating refined wheat and white rice. They aren't consuming it every hour of the day.
Things like refined wheat and white rice are very easy to see when you're consuming them. Sugar is not in the least. There are people that down multiple liters of soda in a day, without thinking about how much sugar they're consuming. Those other things are problems sure, but not nearly as big as sugar.
I know that sugar is a carb, but I'm singling out sugar because it is by and far the biggest of the problems.
anachronic · 2 points · Posted at 20:33:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Speak for yourself ;)
[deleted] · -1 points · Posted at 18:52:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A cup of white rice has as much sugar as a can of soda.
So does ~3 slices of white bread.
Thompy · 2 points · Posted at 19:13:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Whoa, can you link a source to that statement?
[deleted] · 7 points · Posted at 19:39:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's not true. They're equating all carbohydrates as the same, so they're saying that 3 slices of white bread is the same as consuming 45 grams of sugar from a can of soda. Not really how that works.
The number of carbs are the same but simple sugars like table sugar are digested differently than more complex sugars like those found in white bread and white rice. Treating them as equivalent is silly.
Having said that, you should absolutely prioritize unrefined grains over refined ones. But no, eating 3 slices of white bread is not as bad as drinking a can of soda.
BodyMindGains · 2 points · Posted at 20:33:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
For weight gain/weight loss purposes, every carbohydrate is exactly the same.
TheShadowKick · 2 points · Posted at 21:39:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
For overall health the difference matters.
Thompy · 1 points · Posted at 22:25:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Whoa, can you link a source to that statement?
I'm kidding, to be fair that sounds more plausible and (s)he pretty much implied that 3 slices of bread was as bad as a can of soda which would be echoed everywhere if true.
Zer0Gravity1 · 5 points · Posted at 19:37:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
They are stating that the 45g of carbs from a cup of white rice is equal to the 46g of sugar in a mtn dew. It's true that for the most part simple carbs (like those found in white rice, white bread, pasta) breakdown in the body the same as sugar. However, from a health standpoint there is more nutritional value to rice than a mtn dew.
Generally speaking whole-grain (NOT whole-wheat, they are different) is the way to go if you enjoy eating carbs. They contain more fiber and the carb to sugar breakdown is "better" placing it much lower on the glycemic index than white bread/rice/etc...
I dislike when people say mtn dew (or any other pop) is just as bad as white rice. While on a chemical level it's true, I don't know many people that eat 5-6 cups of white rice a day, but I have seen people drink 5-6 mtn dews a day. Pop is pure empty calories. There is at least some nutritional benefit to white rice, and it's easier to control intake of.
GeoM56 · 2 points · Posted at 19:46:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
whole-wheat is whole-grain, but not vice versa.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:22:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's called reading food labels.
Hdhfhdjsj · 4 points · Posted at 19:42:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Can we get a nutritionist up in here? Everything I read says barely any sugar in rice. 0g on most labels. Even if your body turns it into a sugar, the nutrition label isn't telling you that. And the other guy saying fruit isn't that much better than candy? I'm not a nutritionist, I don't know the facts. But seems like you guys are spewing some bullshit to me. Evidence would be nice.
nickjaa · 2 points · Posted at 20:56:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Rice and sugar are both carbs, but sugar is sugar while rice is starch. At the end of the day they both become glucose in the body but soda is more likely to be unhealthy because a) there's a good chance you won't eat it with anything else (fiber, protein), so you'll get a sugar rush, b) it's bad for your teeth and c) it doesn't have the kind of minerals/nutrition you find in rice.
I know it's confusing, but the quality and quantity of your calories and macros are important, and you can safely ignore people who say otherwise.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 20:00:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You'd want a dietician. Nutritionist isn't a regulated term. Dieticians have to be registered kind of like how you can't just say you're a practicing medical doctor.
Sugars are carbs. Look at a food label, it's listed as a subsection of carbs for a reason. Heavily refined carbs are virtually identical to sugars because your body is going to treat it all the same.
The only addendum here is that your body reacts differently when you're consume 'whole' carbs like beans, whole wheat, or wild rice. But once you refine it? Once rice loses it's fibrous husk, once you've removed everything but the carbohydrate, it doesn't really matter. Japanese people have an unusually high frequency of Type 2 Diabetes cases for this exact reason; white rice is ubiquitous in the Japanese diet.
Depends on the fruit, and it does help to know what the fruit's genetic lineage is like. And yeah, treating fruits like candy isn't the worst idea. Apples for dessert used to be normal.
But one simple example is a banana. Eat roughly two medium sized bananas in a day and you've taken on the carb load of a can of soda. There's some micro nutrients but nothing you can't find in a better source. Dates are literal candy here- one cup, chopped has about 93 grams of sugars and 12 grams of fiber. Grapes are not much better, depending on the variety, although I haven't really heard of someone who packs through two or three cups of it a day.
You have to remember that a lot of these fruits find genetic lineage to an ancestor that didn't want to be eaten. Small, seedy, virtually inedible.
On the flip side, if 'berry' creeps up in the name of the fruit, it's probably pretty good. Raspberries, blackberries, strawberries, boysenberries, blueberries, cranberries etc, all are excellent sources of fiber- raspberries and blackberries are effectively half fiber by carb content- and micro nutrient dense in addition to usually having some not insignificant antioxidant content.
nickjaa · 1 points · Posted at 21:00:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No, no. Bananas have lots of micronutrients and one banana has 10 percent of the RDI of fiber so it won't give you a sugar high like soda. Bananas are not just a sugar delivery system. Carbs are good for you and you need carbs. I'd agree that you can get the same nutrients in bananas from a less sugary source, but that doesn't mean you should or that bananas are worthless sugar.
BankshotMcG · 1 points · Posted at 21:31:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, this is the gulf between glycemic index and glycemic load. AIUI, the efficacy of the carbs in bananas is high -- they spike insulin thoroughly and swiftly. That's the index. But the amount you would have to eat to get the efficacy found in 50g of banana carbs is absurd. Adjusted for serving size, that's the glycemic load and it's pretty friendly.
nickjaa · 2 points · Posted at 21:56:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah load versus index is really important. I used to be so horrified when I learned rice has about the same GI as sugar until I realized how unlikely I am to consume rice without any protein or fiber or fat.
BankshotMcG · 1 points · Posted at 05:51:23 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Do the protein and fat temper the carb's absorption and insulin production or is it just that they fill out the rest of the meal so you're eating less of it? That's the part I've wondered.
nickjaa · 2 points · Posted at 11:30:28 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Both. I mean you'll still have insulin released but it happens more slowly if there's protein/fiber/fat, making for a smoother, more prolonged release of energy. That's the difference between a foods glycemic index and a meals glycemic load
BankshotMcG · 1 points · Posted at 15:36:53 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ah, gotcha. Thanks! I thought it was purely amount of carb per serving, and couldn't figure out why banana or watermelon varied so much from their index numbers.
nickjaa · 2 points · Posted at 15:51:51 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah. Sorry all this stuff is so confusing and there's so much misinformation flying around. Honestly most people don't need to think about the glycemic index, calories and nutrients is already a lot of work and it's really all you probably need to know.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 21:32:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No you don't. There is absolutely no nutritional need to consume carbohydrates and your body doesn't particularly care if it has to consume fat or carbs to keep the lights on as long as the source is consistent.
And yeah, you can do a lot worse than a banana. But people don't understand that a banana is still pretty sugary and can proceed to gorge themselves on them.
nickjaa · 1 points · Posted at 22:00:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's unrealistic and useless advice, though. Like, yes people can put themselves in ketosis to get energy from fat if they want, sure. But if they're not, they won't. It's advice not remotely applicable to the average person wanting to lose weight. Practically everybody uses carbs for energy and doesn't know enough about nutrition or dieting to put themselves into ketosis nor do they have the commitment, willpower or motivation to do so.
Sure, you can be ketogenic, but it's much, much, much more work than even the most committed health and fitness people are willing to put in, especially since the return on investment is so small and there are so many other ways to reduce your cancer/diabetes risk. (Unless you're epileptic, of course, in which case go ketosis.)
Don't advise people to not eat carbs, especially if you're talking to people who want to exercise. Again, I know that you can get by just fine on ketosis, but 99.999999% of people won't want to or need to.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 22:31:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah it's really not hard and very little work. Learning what has carbs in it is the hardest part and that's not really hard especially with the internet.
Now whether it's necessary or worth it to you is completely different conversations but it's really not hard.
nickjaa · 1 points · Posted at 22:57:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
you're going to tell me it's easy to indefinitely plan every single one of the meals you eat to make sure you're getting at least half your calories from fat and no more than 30 grams of carbs a day? Yes, that's hard. I track my macros and work in the fitness industry but I know it's not realistic to tell the average person 'you don't need carbs, going keto is easy.'
Being 'healthy' and getting enough vitamins and minerals and protein is already extremely hard for most people. Adding 'also you should do keto' is just not a constructive solution to the health problems.
I guess maybe we're talking about different things, though - we started on what most people have wrong about diet and moved into how certain very motivated people can be healthy. I'm coming at this from what is achievable for the average person, and I firmly believe keto is not.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 23:02:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I mean, if you make keto a prison, it's going to become a prison. Even it's big proponents will tell you that the goal of staying under 100 grams of carbs daily is more important than staying below 30.
nickjaa · 1 points · Posted at 23:23:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think in that case there may be some confusion about keto vs low carb. Keto is either/or: you're using ketones for fuel or you aren't. That won't happen on 100g carbs a day. You're describing a low carb diet, which isn't ideal (edit: for most people) if you're exercising much but can be great for sedentary folk.
To be clear, I don't have an issue with keto people, I have an issue with recommending it to an average overweight American as a means to improve their health. The average person will never, ever, ever be able to count calories, let alone track macros, let alone have the time, motivation, and resourcefulness to go keto. Too many people don't even know how to cook. the best we can do is figure out ways for people to keep an eye on food groups and portion sizes, you know?
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 01:03:27 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's not exactly how it works. Even on a conventional carb driven diet your body still gets about ~5% of it's fuel from ketones.
And actually, this is coming from people who highly recommend keto diets. You should aggressively reduce carb intake as low as possible if you're trying to lose weight, but once you've reached weight goals every good keto diet actually recommends reintroducing some carbs.
In which case a fat-centric diet is actually a good thing. Fat isn't like carbs in the sense that it doesn't 'break' your body's ability to realize it's full. It's significantly more difficult to over eat on a fat-heavy diet.
BodyMindGains · 0 points · Posted at 20:34:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There may not be added sugars to your rice, but rice is 99% (or 100) carbohydrates. Carbs ARE sugar.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 19:37:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
2 slices of white bread has 3 grams of sugar, so 3 slices has about 4.5. That's not even close to a can of soda.
1 cup of white rice has literally 0.1g of sugar.
You're equating all carbs to table sugar. That's not how it works. By that same logic brown rice and whole wheat bread also have as much sugar as a can of soda. It's just not true.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:42:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A cup of white rice has 45 grams of carbs and virtually no fiber- .6 grams.
A slice of white bread has 15 grams of carbs is slightly better at .8 grams of fiber.
A can of coke has about 42?
If a food has no dietary fiber in it, the carbs are all the same.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 21:19:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Both of those things have fiber. Albeit not a whole lot, but they do have fiber. Hence, they are not the same as 42g of sugar in a coke. This is what I'm getting at. You said they have the same amount of (simple) sugar that a can of soda does. While refined carbohydrates are not as complex as unrefined like you find in whole wheat products, they're still more complex than simple sugars and thus take longer the break down and digest. Again, this was my point.
I was never trying to assert that eating 45g of unrefined carbs is fine or healthy, just that your claim that a cup of white rice = a can of soda is misleading.
812many · 10 points · Posted at 18:16:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I better not eat any more fruit, then! /s
It's more nuanced than that, the trick is to not eat stuff with added sugar, like soda.
TerraTempest · 4 points · Posted at 20:14:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You say that, but fruit has been bred and modified by people to be bigger and sweeter. Your fruit does have added sugar, it's just been bred to add the sugar itself.
812many · -1 points · Posted at 20:16:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Still healthier than pouring a bag of sugar down your throat.
TerraTempest · 2 points · Posted at 20:34:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Healthier yes, but healthy? No. Veggies on the other hand are great!
MaxxBreak · 3 points · Posted at 18:21:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think it's more important to avoid foods with "added sugar". This is sugar which is extracted / processed in a way that is not naturally occurring.
brandononrails · 1 points · Posted at 18:32:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I avoid fructose as well
jivow · -4 points · Posted at 18:26:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
no /s - fruits apart from containing vitamins are quite unhealthy due to high sugar content. There is not that much difference between drinking coke and drinking orange juice - both can make you fat.
812many · 8 points · Posted at 18:47:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Fruits have fiber and more complex sugars than just added sugar. They are considerably more healthy than straight sugar. Doctors recommend a certain amount of fruit in your diet, while they recommend no food with added sugars.
jivow · 1 points · Posted at 19:01:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
They do have more than the "added sugar", true, but "added sugar" is refined straight from vegetables (beets).
And it is more complex fructose-glucose than e.g. a natural inverted sugar (honey). And even more complex sugars (e.g. starches) are the "evil carbs" so many talk about.
And pipes are more healthy than cigarettes and e-cigarettes are more healthy than cigarettes. But truth being told fruits are not that much better than candies.
To get to the numbers - if you replace your coke with orange juice in the same quantity you won't lower you caloric intake.
And if you add up all the things that "doctors recommend" you will go way over your recommended daily intake.
BodyMindGains · 0 points · Posted at 20:32:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Liquid fruits (orange juice) don't contain any fiber and they're nothing more than sugar water with some vitamins. Fruits were intended to be eaten, not blended up and drank.
kenjutsudude · 8 points · Posted at 18:48:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
People saying shit like this is what stops people from bothering to lose weight.
It's not all or nothing; if someone is eating two apples instead of ice cream, it's not perfect, but it's an improvement. Someone's eating carrots ('high' in sugar) and not a bag of potato chips, it's still an improvement.
Not everyone is ready, able, or willing to eat a 100% perfectly nutritionally balanced diet. Let people make better decisions without criticizing them for not being 'optimal'.
nickjaa · 2 points · Posted at 21:01:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
excellent comment
jivow · 2 points · Posted at 19:25:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm doing well loosing weight (so far 23kg down) because I read labels. People throwing shitty factoids instead of real info are the reason so many people have troubles loosing weight.
2 medium apples are about 150-160 kcal. Two big apples are around 200kcal. Chocolate dipped ice-cream are around 250 kcal, true, but "plain" ice cream will be around 120-140 kcal.
So depending and what do you consider apple and ice-cream you may see from only very slight through no effect to negative effect. This is what I'm talking about saying that fruits aren't a golden bullet.
Esp that ice-cream will be more filling due to higher fat content while apple is mostly sugar-water.
Carrots are way better than chips. Apples aren't better than ice-cream. Orange juice isn't better than cola.
You don't need to be perfect but you need to be good enough to make ot look like it's working. If you will eat things you don't like that much and in the end lose a 1 kg in a month you will give up if you still have 30 to go.
cpMetis · 2 points · Posted at 20:09:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Fuck sugar.
Not because of health effects, but because of the taste. How do people like that shit, or anything with it in high concentration?
-Someone who was diabetic from a young age
cant_think_of_one_ · 2 points · Posted at 20:22:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Eating too much refined carbohydrates is bad too. Lots of pasta, white bread, rice etc is also bad for you too and, lots of people eat very little sugar but still have way too much refined carbohydrate in their diet, leading to spikes in blood glucose. It doesn't matter what it came from, high blood glucose is the problem and, large amounts of sugar are not the only easy way to get to that.
legaladult · 1 points · Posted at 19:29:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm totally guilty of this.
nickjaa · 1 points · Posted at 20:10:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
By itself, it isn't. Only if it's 'the enemy' because it's easy to eat too much of it. And if that's true, then what you really mean is too many calories are the enemy.
anachronic · 1 points · Posted at 20:28:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I only eat about 2-3 tsp's of sugar a day (in my coffee). What would you recommend I cut out since sugar really isn't an issue with my diet now?
Turningpoint43 · 1 points · Posted at 20:30:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Never knew about the serotonin levels... I'll have to look more into that
datchilla · 1 points · Posted at 21:19:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Diabetes is more linked to starch and protein intake.
An abundance of sugar is bad, but you could watch out for sugar really well and still be over weight because of protein, starches, carbs.
BodyMindGains · 0 points · Posted at 20:30:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Hate to break it to you but eating like a fat person makes you fat, sugar just makes it more convenient.
You can eat NOTHING BUT SUGAR and lose weight. You will probably get diabetes and/or be very unhealthy, but you can't blame carbs for obesity.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:51:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes, I am aware. Never said anything to the contrary. I'm also not talking about explicitly weight loss.
Yes, I can, because they are huge contributors, if not the biggest.
You're right that eating like a fat person makes you fat. You know what fat people tend to eat a lot of? Carbs and especially sugar. You know what high calorie foods tend to be packed with? Carbs and sugar. Not exclusively obviously, but they play major roles.
Did I say that carbs are the only cause for obesity? No. Did I say that if you consume a ton of carbs and sugar you will 100% be obese? No. But to act like they aren't major contributors to obesity is naive.
_SONNEILLON · -6 points · Posted at 19:34:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The enemy is extreme diets. I never limit calories, never count fat or anything. I'm still quite fit. Literally just eat food and exercise everyday. Not hard
NyxPeregrinus · 4 points · Posted at 19:58:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's called anecdotal evidence. For some people, like you, it comes naturally. Others have to intentionally work at it with methods like calorie counting.
_SONNEILLON · -2 points · Posted at 20:11:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Actually if you eat normal sized portions you develop a sense of what the right amount of food is. That's why families that make their kids finish all their meals have higher rates of obesity. So you definitely don't need to calorie count if your parents didn't fuck ur diet
NyxPeregrinus · 1 points · Posted at 21:26:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Be that as it may, a lot of people did get their diets fucked/had parents who didn't know about nutrition. I'd say it's actually a minority who were taught good eating habits, because it's easier and quicker to rely on junk food.
Cranky_Kong · 23 points · Posted at 15:29:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So much this but I want you to realize that the slow adoption rate is purely because of all of the propaganda being pumped into our brains for the last 60 years as to what a healthy diet is.
TheRealHooks · 9 points · Posted at 15:40:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I eat lots of rice, but that's because it's cheap calories, and I need the extra calories.
theonlyafghan · 15 points · Posted at 17:23:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Carbs could make up most of your diet. Just look at Asian countries with healthy populations and long life expectancies. It's just the kind of carbs.
[deleted] · 6 points · Posted at 20:09:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
theonlyafghan · 3 points · Posted at 21:18:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
whatThisGuySaid
[deleted] · 13 points · Posted at 15:36:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
All I know is, when I cut wheat out of my diet, I lost five pounds. As soon as I started eating more carbs, especially bread and wheat products, I gained it back immediately. I ate a lot of fat in the period of time where I lost weight, too. It's like people think if you eat fat, your body will say, 'this is fat, I'll just put this on your waistline immediately without breaking it down first.'
R99 · 9 points · Posted at 18:27:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Carbs make you gain weight because they have a lot of calories, but don't really make you feel that full. It's easier to overeat carbs than it is protein and fat.
Thompy · 1 points · Posted at 19:14:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Pasta is a carbohydrate, and that definitely fills you up.
TerraTempest · 3 points · Posted at 20:18:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
For like an hour or two, then you're hungry again.
Thompy · 1 points · Posted at 22:22:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Seems to me you barely eat any then, I tend to overcook and overeat on purpose though...
brandononrails · 4 points · Posted at 18:33:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I live on fats (keto) and I'm healthier than ever, both weight wise and on my blood tests.
[deleted] · 4 points · Posted at 18:36:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm thinking about Keto. I've noticed that whenever I have a sufficient amount of grains or gluten-heavy foods I get depressed, tired, and things tend to just get shittier. I tried cutting it out and realized I was feeling better, a lot better. I went from 210 to 205 in a week. Started back on breads and other carbs...and now I'm back up to 210 again.
brandononrails · 4 points · Posted at 18:38:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'd say do it. Remember it's not a diet, it's a lifestyle change, as you've seen what happens when going back to carb heavy food.
I love that I get to eat red meat, butter, bacon, peanut butter, on my "diet." Once you get fat adapted it gets so much easier. I've noticed I get depressed WAY less often, my body hurts less all the time, and my stamina is increased.
Join us on /r/keto!
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:55:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'll subscribe and see how it goes! Thanks!
brandononrails · 1 points · Posted at 19:06:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Good luck!
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 22:41:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Carby foods make you retain water. That's probably where you saw that five pounds come and go.
Keto has been great for me though, I was never a big sweets guy so cutting that out was easy. Losing pasta and tortilla chips was harder but everything else keto has done for me makes it more than worth it.
PC509 · 1 points · Posted at 18:37:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What about cholesterol? Doesn't that go up?
I've got a lot of heart disease in my family, and cholesterol is generally high in the family, too. Fats were generally a no-no.
I'm looking for a way to get off of carbs. I'm not fat at all, but I'm not healthy.
SethPatton1999 · 5 points · Posted at 18:45:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
With a keto diet cholesterol has been shown to actually go down over time
brandononrails · 4 points · Posted at 18:43:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Mine went down, slightly, but it wasn't in a bad range to begin with. Yes I eat mainly fats now, but my diet as a whole is WAY better. I get my fat sources from good fats (meat, olive oil, coconut oil, etc), not hidden in mcdonalds food and twinkies.
Checkout /r/keto. I know we probably sound cultish anytime carbs come up on reddit, but it's because so many of us have changed our lives on it.
TerraTempest · 4 points · Posted at 20:23:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The fat raises cholesterol thing has been proven to be mostly a myth, your body regulates cholesterol pretty strictly and if it's high it's because your body is actively repairing damage. Not to mention studies have shown that lowering cholesterol does not prevent heart attacks.
PC509 · 2 points · Posted at 20:46:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Cool. I'll have to look into it, then.
I love meat, but giving up the pasta/rice/potatoes is going to be the hard part. I'm good giving up sweets, it's the other carbs that get me.
TerraTempest · 3 points · Posted at 20:51:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, it is definitely a much harder hurdle than dropping sugar. Checkout the keto faq
PC509 · 1 points · Posted at 20:52:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Cool. Thanks!
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 22:44:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That was the hard part for me. I didn't really care about sweets.
Based on my experience the best advice I can give you is to meal prep for a couple of weeks. It's a lot easier to say no to those cravings when you're food is already decided on and made. After a couple of weeks those craving will greatly, greatly subside and the whole thing gets way easier.
Tistouuu · 4 points · Posted at 18:29:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Look up "keto". Thank me later, or dont and just spread the word.
Michento · 5 points · Posted at 18:43:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I tried Keto strictly for about a month and felt awful. Less than 20 carbs a day. I added a couple supplements that were suggested to help as well as electrolytes, but still felt really bad.
I've had carb flu before when going low carb (not Keto levels) but it generally passed after a few days. After a full month of no energy and feeling bad I gave up on Keto. :( Sucks because I was losing weight rather easily and my appetite was SO much easier to control.
Perhaps my body is just happier in the low carb realm (50ish ala Mark Sisson). Now I just need to get back on track.
Tistouuu · 2 points · Posted at 18:52:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I was lucky enough to not have keto flu, but I make sure I take the required amount of magnesium and potassium every day. I'm sorry it was too hard for you, maybe try again another time, with more prep ?
Michento · 3 points · Posted at 20:35:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Those are the two I added but not until a couple weeks in (magnesium and potassium). Yeah, I may try again with supplementing from the start. I may also ease into it this time. Get back into the 50g carbs realm regularly and then start cutting back more.
Of all the diets I've tried, lowering my carb intake has always seemed the most effective and made me feel the most satiated. It also seems to make the most logical sense on why it's better for our bodies.
[deleted] · -1 points · Posted at 19:12:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Fat vs carb is mostly irrelevant. What matters is total calories. Though don't assume what is written on the pckage is exactly what you're getting either
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 18:25:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
agreed: fat adds satiety to food, making you feel full for longer (this is good). High protein and fat and high fiber is better than carbs and sugar which burn you out and make you want to eat again sooner.
jivow · 3 points · Posted at 18:30:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And where did you get that revelation? From the onset of farming starches (so carbs) became a base of diet.
This issue is, as almost everything, a lot more nuanced. One of the reasons people get fat it that they can afford food - food is cheap, food is available, and eating food is pleasurable.
So while yes, promoting sugars instead of fats is bad so is making everything black and white.
Trogdorocks · 3 points · Posted at 19:07:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not eating fat makes you depressed.
portingil · 7 points · Posted at 16:28:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So we should eat more pure fats and meats?
CatchingRays · 11 points · Posted at 16:38:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
65% of everything I eat is fat. I lost weight. My blood pressure and cholesterol normalized. I'm healthier. I'm not saying everyone should go this extreme. I'm just trying to point out the correlation between fat (intake) shaming and obesity rates.
I think the answer fits OPs question.
Donttakethebait111 · 1 points · Posted at 18:13:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I thought carbs were essential for energy tho, is this also false?
I'd happily cut all carbs if that was the right way to go.. I could just cover that piece of the plate with veggies easily..should I? I work a job that requires me to be highly active tho... I always felt like I needed the carbs.
Jaredismyname · 8 points · Posted at 18:25:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Our bodies can burn fat to create energy it is simply easier to use carbs.
Tistouuu · 3 points · Posted at 18:34:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I've been eating no carbs for two month. Still not dead, despite what everyone was thinking. Feeling greater than I've been for a long time.
Donttakethebait111 · 2 points · Posted at 18:50:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
good.
I've had carbs with pretty much every meal in my entire life I think... I am a little overwhelmed by the prospect of giving it up but I'll give it a try.
Mostly I think it will hurt my in the wallet because rice is so cheap it's almost free, and it's been like 40-50% of my plate since forever.
I guess I'm gonna be learning how to cook veggies as a side dish now for a while, will be fun !
Oh and making packed microwave dinners without rice will be a challenge.
Tistouuu · 1 points · Posted at 18:58:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Good luck and enjoy ! Plenty of useful stuff on r/keto. I was worried about missing rice, pasta, pizza, burgers, but I only missed it for a week or two. I've been treating myself with cucumber, fêta, avocado, all sorts of cheese, dried sausage, brocolis, cauliflower, eggs, cabage, mayonnaise... Really don't feel i'm on a diet. I even sometimes indulge myself a burger, I just don't eat the buns and avoid the sauce.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:14:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Anneisabitch · 3 points · Posted at 19:31:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I eat a shit to of cauliflower rice. But honestly, after a month of not eating a carb with every meal I didn't really miss it. At first it's weird to have a meat and veggie only on your plate but you get used to it.
I still allow myself 'cheat days' but I have an addiction to sushi. And fast food is almost impossible. Most restaurant food is unless you like salads.
After 6 months I can only eat about half a cup of rice before I'm uncomfortably full.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:52:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Anneisabitch · 2 points · Posted at 00:38:21 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you are really interested, start off slow and maybe replace half the rice with another scoop of veggies. No reason to give up all carbs if you're managing your health. Carbs are damn delicious.
Rice/beans and ramen were probably 90% of my diet in my poor days. Which is why I shouldn't eat them now.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 01:02:12 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Anneisabitch · 2 points · Posted at 03:13:51 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Beans do have carbs, but I eat beans all the time because I'm a lazy half-vegetarian. I would stay away from red or kidney beans, they can be toxic. If you were very serious about keto maybe you'd not eat them? Not sure.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 22:57:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I have yet to run into a burger place that wouldn't make me a lettuce wrap, places like taco bell have bowls you can do if you cut the rice/beans. Salads from fast food places are usually harder in my experience because you have to pull so much fruit and shit off of them and find a dressing that's not 75 percent sugar.
CatchingRays · 3 points · Posted at 19:44:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"I thought carbs were essential for energy"
This is false. Fat is energy. Wether stores or consumed, it's energy.
Another thing that I just learned last week is that the feeling most of us associate with hunger is actually carb craving. When you don't eat carbs and go into ketosis, you can go a lot longer without food or feeling hungry. 3 meals a day is overkill.
dasiffy · 2 points · Posted at 18:44:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Your body uses fuel in the following order...
When what you eat gets digested, any vitamins, minerals, protein will get used right away. Any carbs you eat which don't get burned turn into fat with everything else in your stomach.
This is the original food pyramid, before it was changed by lobbyists.
TheCastro · 1 points · Posted at 18:24:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Nah, your brain needs carbs, but can turn things you eat into it. You can do a Keto type diet without cutting a lot of crabs, like 100g per day. Currently I'm doing 30g of crabs per day or less, 4 months in and I lost 100lbs and haven't had any less energy than before.
brandononrails · 5 points · Posted at 18:36:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not everyone can stay in ketosis on 100g/day. I try and stick to 20g/day. I feel like that's my personal sweet spot.
TheCastro · 2 points · Posted at 19:24:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
True, I was saying that a lower carb diet of under 100 helps some people. I didn't mean they would be in ketosis. I should have written more clearly.
[deleted] · -1 points · Posted at 18:24:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You do not need carbs to power your body. Our ancient ancestors didn't actually have wide access to 'carb dump' foods we have today like potatoes, beans, many fruits, and many grains.
Other than a 'keto flu' that develops as your body acclimates from primarily fueling itself off carbs to fueling itself on fats, there really isn't any major drawback to a ketogenic diet, other than that it can be pricey. That and you need to be conscious of how much fat you consume. If you don't get enough fat relative to your protein intake your body will actually start converting protein to carbohydrates in your liver.
jivow · 8 points · Posted at 18:35:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What? You may have skipped on few thousand years of human civilisation.
While there is nothing wrong with keto let's get facts straight - our most recent ancestors had their diets based on starches.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 18:51:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
From what? They were nomads.
jivow · 2 points · Posted at 19:29:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And the last around 8000-12000 years?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_agriculture
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:38:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
We're talking about prior to the agricultural revolution. Anatomically modern humans are at least 200,000 years old.
jivow · 1 points · Posted at 20:11:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And so? The fact that you have anatomy similar doesn't meant that the changes in hormone activity, intestine microbiome, intestine secretions and so on didn't happen. Just look at the tolerance for alcohol or lactose between Asian and European populations.
For your consideration:
It took 30 years of selective pressure for swallows that live near highways to evolve in a more "agile" sub-species that is better at avoiding fast-moving cars. That's 30 generations. We're talking about around 500-700 generations of humans since agriculture started that were eating increasingly more starch-based diet.
Ponsif · -9 points · Posted at 16:47:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The fact that a diet helped you lose weight doesn't mean that it's healthy.
brandononrails · 2 points · Posted at 18:35:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I eat more fat than any other macronutrient and my blood tests have gotten significantly better.
CatchingRays · 8 points · Posted at 16:54:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Do you make up ridiculous arguments to prove a point. Or do you go through extreme practices to do it? Either way.....lame.
[deleted] · 4 points · Posted at 17:12:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When I was an electrician they set up food stands on the site I was working on. I ate nothing but greasy hamburgers and burritos and the like every single day for lunch. I'd buy extra and put it in my cooler for dinner. It was all through Google so we were getting it at discount; I was paying like $3.50 in total for 2 meals a day. Was amazing.
Never gained a pound, no health problems as of my last checkup. I ate that stuff for over half a year. That and some snacks and fruit and stuff I would stock up on and lug around.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 16:59:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No you didn't.
[deleted] · -6 points · Posted at 17:31:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
[deleted] · 4 points · Posted at 17:37:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Anytime. But really, its actually pretty well established at this point that a high fat/high protein/low carb diet is a very healthy lifestyle.
There is literally zero science supporting McDonalds french fries being healthy.
But lets be honest dude, we all know 100% you are full of shit and made up a hypothetical situation that technically could be true, but obviously isn't because you're a redditor who just wanted to prove some point by being contrarian.
Not to mention if every meal you ate was fries you'd be dead because you would be missing out on so many actual nutrients and vitamins and minerals your body needs you literally wouldn't survive.
cbarone1 · 2 points · Posted at 17:54:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Psssst, that's not the same person.
jenksanro · 4 points · Posted at 17:52:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Dude you lived up to you name
Jaredismyname · 0 points · Posted at 18:25:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Actually potatoes contain most of the nutrients needed to sustain human life.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 18:27:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
We are talking about McDonalds fries, not potatoes.
los_rascacielos · 0 points · Posted at 18:30:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I mean, yeah, you could theoretically lose weight doing that, but you wouldn't be very healthy...
Tistouuu · 0 points · Posted at 18:31:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Actually, and surprisingly, yes. Lipids (healthy fat) and proteins : meat and or vegetables. Carbs are really non essential. Mainly pleasure food, and since carbs are sugar, they make you fatter and sick over time. Search keto on reddit. It's real, not a fad.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:56:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Was going to rant about this but you beat me to it
HermanManly · 2 points · Posted at 19:33:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think you should take a step back cause I'm pretty sure 90% of people don't even know what "carbs" are
Winterssavant · 2 points · Posted at 21:15:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I agree with this completely, I have for the past 3 months stuck to a strict low-carb, high protein, high-fat, nutrient dense diet.
I used to always feel so sluggish after a meal, especially after lunch at work and I couldn't figure out why, so I started doing some research into a Keto type diet. Best decision I have ever made, I dropped a whole pant size in 2 months and I can feel my body becoming healthier.
Donttakethebait111 · 3 points · Posted at 18:11:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
As a novice I want to ask, why are carbs bad, if I control my portion size aren't carbs totally fine? isn't a calorie a calorie?
Explain like I'm five (I'm not I swear!)
Anneisabitch · 4 points · Posted at 19:23:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
From personal experience, carbs are damn addicting. All sugar is. So yes, a calorie is a calorie.
But pinto beans don't make your brain physically crave more pinto beans.
I gave up 90% of my carbs and I was shocked how much happier I felt when I let myself indulge and eat rice/pasta/potato/bread.
Donttakethebait111 · 1 points · Posted at 13:26:50 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
So maximize the carbs for maximum happiness? I'm guessing you meant "happier I felt then when I let myself.." :)
TamashiiNoKyomi · 1 points · Posted at 00:07:37 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
Beans are full of carbs, though.
Anneisabitch · 1 points · Posted at 00:32:57 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
They are but they're complex carbs. It was just an example. Trade broccoli for beans and it means the same thing.
TamashiiNoKyomi · 1 points · Posted at 00:48:51 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes but just saying "carbs" rather than "complex carbs" or "refined/simple carbs" makes everything super vague, which I dislike about paleo/keto people. I agree that simple carbs like white bread and sugar are pretty addictive though.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 18:36:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
While a Calorie is a Calorie when it comes to weight loss/gain, there are other facets to nutrition that are important. You can't live on just carbs, you require protein and fat and the micronutrients they contain to survive. Also, carbs tend to have more adverse side effects like causing inflammation and changing hormone levels.
Tistouuu · 2 points · Posted at 18:36:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Carbs turn into sugar, sugar slowly kills you in lots of way. Lots of evidence about this, despite sugar lobby fake studies and claims.
CatchingRays · 1 points · Posted at 20:12:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There are a lot of different types of carbs. There carbs in spinach, but it also has fiber.
Shayne55434 · 2 points · Posted at 18:23:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
/r/keto is leaking...
Though, I do agree, wholeheartedly.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:34:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah the federally founded food pyramid was always a con and, while recommending 11 servings of grains, they were getting kickbacks from the farmers in Iowa. Now they look at us and say they want to be in charge of our healthcare after making everyone fat.
LastNameDuff · 1 points · Posted at 18:34:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Man this is so huge. When you consider how recent a development agriculture is it really doesn't make sense to have grain be a staple at all.
Inanimate_CARB0N_Rod · 1 points · Posted at 18:46:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Wasn't the old food pyramid created by the USDA? Notice that the USDA has nothing to do with nutrition and everything to do with selling crops like wheat
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:52:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The obesity epidemic came from the proliferation of fast food restaurants, drive-thru windows, and replacing water with soda and juice. Not that many people followed the food pyramid.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:00:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When it comes to weight it's calories in, calories out. That's it. IIFYM (If It Fits Your Macros) FTW :D
el_muerte17 · 1 points · Posted at 20:15:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Carbs don't make up any of my diet. You'd have to pay me a pretty big pile of money to get me to eat a carburettor.
JohniiMagii · 1 points · Posted at 20:19:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In the Middle Ages, people ate bread for up to 85% of their Calories. They weren't exactly healthy, but they weren't obese. So eating carbs between 50% and 70% must be bad for you, but not on either side, right?
Correlation is not causation. Calorie source makes little difference, unless it's simple sugar.
catsalways · 1 points · Posted at 22:51:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A whole foods plant based diet is optimal. Animal products are the root of the top diseases. Carbs are not bad. I'm talking unprocessed carbs.
TamashiiNoKyomi · 1 points · Posted at 23:38:22 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Cattle have evolved to digest grass, so obviously when you feed them an overt source of calories they'll fatten up. It's like going from only eating salad to only eating cashews. That's not a good argument for why carbs can be bad for you.
CaptainObvious_1 · 1 points · Posted at 18:29:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There really shouldn't be a pyramid. Dieting is simple: maximize fiber and protein, responsibly consume fats, and minimize sugar/carb intake.
And as a bonus, try to do this in a sustainable way that hopefully reduces your footprint on this planet.
Thebuttdoctor · 2 points · Posted at 21:01:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I love how you and I both just got down voted despite being correct lol.
CaptainObvious_1 · 2 points · Posted at 22:35:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Fat people are salty
Thebuttdoctor · 1 points · Posted at 18:41:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Added sugar is the problem. Natural sugars are fine in moderation. Ie: fruits, carrots.
A diet with MOSTLY greens/ veggies (whether you decide to be vegetarian is totally up to you and not really relevant) high in healthy fats, protein, moderate on carbs, low in sugar and dairy intake is proven to be the most beneficial to both body and mind. Combined with moderate exercise.
The key with everything really is moderation. People have this tendency to eat way too much of one thing because they like it.
RxInfection · 21 points · Posted at 18:53:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Turn signals are to alert OTHER drivers, not an optional rudimentary thing you use 2 seconds before you change lanes or turn.
CaptnThunderBolt · 167 points · Posted at 14:14:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That they aren't the center of the universe.......................I am.
Petapotamous · 14 points · Posted at 17:45:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Actually. If you subscribe the the infinitely expanding universe theory, the universe is expanding infinitely in all directions at this very moment. Which means that at any given point of time, both of us are the center of the universe simultaneously
CaptnThunderBolt · 8 points · Posted at 17:52:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Nope just me and the only subscription that i have it to Hustler magazine.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:48:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
this is one of those infinity suppositions where it's supposed to blow your mind
and then you're like, why?
cause infinity, bitch
Petapotamous · 2 points · Posted at 19:11:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The correct answer is "because you're baked off your ass"
yangyangR · 1 points · Posted at 20:19:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That is a theory on the level of gravity. We're as sure of it as we can be.
Petapotamous · 1 points · Posted at 20:56:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Then I'm pretty damn sure I'm the center of the universe. Just like everyone else
iTomWright · 7 points · Posted at 15:12:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's because the rest of us are definitely not robots. Ha ha ha.
chaun2 · 8 points · Posted at 18:48:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
TechnoL33T · 2 points · Posted at 20:07:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Says you! The only words that really matter are mine.
Lesp00n · 1 points · Posted at 20:53:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No man, its a physical location. http://www.atlasobscura.com/places/the-center-of-the-universe
geeky_username · 1 points · Posted at 22:29:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I mean, you're big, sure. Maybe even morbidly obese.
But I still don't think that makes you the center of the universe.
aus_in · 19 points · Posted at 19:49:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
At Starbucks, order your ice water with the rest of your order - at the register. By the time you've gotten your drink and asked for an ice water, there are already 12 other drinks I'm supposed to be making. The whole system is set up on a repeatable routine, and you are completely ruining it.
SkytooBlue · 241 points · Posted at 14:47:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In the US / right-lane-driving countries Left lane is only for passing in highways Drivers should stay on the right lane if they are not passing. Staying on the left lane because you're going the speed limit should not be acceptable.
Vice versa for left-lane-driving countries
CPSismyhero · 48 points · Posted at 15:19:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Its illegal to stay in the left lane in France and Quebec.
McPebbster · 17 points · Posted at 15:41:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Same in Germany. If you can stay in a lane further right than you are for more than 20 sec you are supposed to change.
That being said, we have middle lane huggers that think the right lane is just for trucks...
Edit: Time is shorter than first stated
[deleted] · 5 points · Posted at 16:53:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't think those rules are so cut and dry in a 3+ lane scenario. The right lane is for getting on and leaving the highway, the middle lane is "I'm not speeding but also not getting off anytime soon", and any additional left lanes are "if I have to tap my brakes you're a dick".
McPebbster · 5 points · Posted at 17:44:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It actually kind of is...
"Erlaubt die Benutzung des rechten Fahrstreifens trotz vorausfahrender Fahrzeuge die Beibehaltung der Geschwindigkeit auf längere Zeit - von der Rechtsprechung entschieden sind mehr als 20 Sekunden -, gilt das Rechtsfahrgebot."
infamous-spaceman · 8 points · Posted at 16:00:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Montreal seems to have lost that memo in the mail.
ivythepug · 2 points · Posted at 18:58:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
To be fair, Montreal seems to have lost several memos on proper & safe driving...
[deleted] · 5 points · Posted at 15:57:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Pfft. Quebec can get back to me when they allow right turns on red lights.
Gl33m · 2 points · Posted at 16:00:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's illegal in several US states as well.
NeverBeenStung · 2 points · Posted at 16:18:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's a state by state basis in the US. I know it's illegal in my state (Tennessee)
growlingbear · 1 points · Posted at 20:01:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not in town it's not. Try to get through Jackson without using the Left lane.
NeverBeenStung · 1 points · Posted at 20:02:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Should have clarified, this is for interstates, and maybe smaller highways, not sure on that.
SCPendolino · 1 points · Posted at 15:38:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm fairly sure that's illegal everywhere.
Gl33m · 10 points · Posted at 16:00:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There are some US states where it's legal, and some where it is not.
negrodamus90 · 2 points · Posted at 17:31:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Nope, not illegal everywhere sadly.
wakeupalice · 2 points · Posted at 16:29:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In Quebec? Really? I guess it's completely unenforced lol.
sexy_bethany · 1 points · Posted at 17:21:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In Australia, it's illegal if the speed limit is 80km/h or higher
Serdaigle15 · 1 points · Posted at 17:28:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah right, say that to my dad. When he taught me how to drive in France, on the autoroute he specifically says "stays in the middle, the right are for slow people/ exit/entering.
metaliving · 1 points · Posted at 19:27:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Same in Spain, yet it still happens
h6xy · 1 points · Posted at 20:28:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Uk obviously has the lanes flipped but we have a law in place for middle lane hogging - 3 points and £100. Although only 135 fines were issued after about 2 years sooo
Slaisa · 1 points · Posted at 12:06:48 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Fishings great in quebec
LovingThatPlaid · 39 points · Posted at 15:56:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Some states in the US have this as a law actually. Use the left lane only for passing. I’ve seen it on road signs before
arachnophilia · 10 points · Posted at 16:05:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
in other states (eg: florida) the lawmakers specifically reject those ideas.
here, on our major highway, the left lane is an HOV lane in one county, and a paid toll express lane in another.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 18:05:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's a thing here in Texas, but I've never seen it enforced
Level_32_Mage · 3 points · Posted at 18:19:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
These signs have zero positive effect.
uniquecannon · 2 points · Posted at 18:11:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And yet people don't care. They're so intent on "policing the lawbreakers" using their own form of vigilanteism of driving slow in the passing lane, breaking the laws themselves.
People don't accidentally create a rolling roadblock, it's intentional.
igiggy · 1 points · Posted at 18:07:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Recently road tripped through Western and south eastern Michigan and everyone stayed out of the left lane except to pass. Crossed over to Ohio, and holy fuck do we such at driving on the highway. The difference was staggering
LovingThatPlaid · 2 points · Posted at 04:31:44 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, here in Ohio nobody gives a damn about sensible driving on the highways
erichf3893 · 1 points · Posted at 18:37:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It is a good idea, but very rarely enforced (at least in IL/IN)
smashley951 · 19 points · Posted at 16:33:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In California, it's not just for passing. You can stay in that left lane as long as you want. You just can't impede traffic. So if you're doing 85 in the left lane and suddenly someone comes up behind you doing 90, you're supposed to get over and let them pass on the left.
Although, most people going super fast will just go around you right away without giving you a chance to move out of their way, but that's their problem
TheMarkHasBeenMade · 2 points · Posted at 19:30:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
They have that in a few places, typically noted with the highway signs "slower traffic keep to the right".
Now if only people would read the signs and really try to practice this...
[deleted] · -5 points · Posted at 16:56:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If they are able to pass on your right then you were able to move right quicker. It's 100% on you every time if someone has to pass you on the right.
Alakazarm · 11 points · Posted at 17:36:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There are loads (relatively, probably one in three hundred cars but you see them every day) of people who drive like 110 on the freeway in LA and will not give you the chance to move, this guy is right.
[deleted] · -7 points · Posted at 17:40:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If someone is going 110 and has room to maneuver into the right lane to pass you that means there was plenty of space for you, someone going much slower, to move into the right lane first. And you can't even say they were going to fast for you to react, because if they have that much space to do it then there cannot be anyone in the right lane meaning you are in the left lane for no reason at all other than you're daydreaming instead of getting over.
TheBestCheese · 12 points · Posted at 18:02:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Someone going 110 is going to get on your ass quickly, and you may not have been looking in the rear-view mirror at the time.
Don't forget that these people are coming from behind you, and looking forward is more important than looking back when driving on the freeway.
[deleted] · -7 points · Posted at 18:09:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The person behind you is irrelevant. If they have space to pass you going 110 on the right then that already means you should have long since moved into the right lane. It isn't about seeing them and then moving, the point of the law is that you are already over to the right because you have no reason to be in the left.
TheBestCheese · 2 points · Posted at 19:01:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Fair enough. Point conceded.
Jaredismyname · 2 points · Posted at 18:21:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not if there is enough space between two cars for you to fit in on your right but they are also going slower than you. Say I am going 75 and the two spaced out cars are going 65, I am slowly going to pass them so why would I be in there lane?
[deleted] · 5 points · Posted at 18:31:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If someone is going 110, and has room to actually maneuver around you while you're going 75, then the gap you are describing is MUCH bigger. If you won't be moving around them in the next 20-30 seconds then you should be in the right lane.
I'm not saying they are right and aren't breaking the law speeding but if they are going nearly twice as fast as you are and can make that maneuver, then you're misrepresenting how much space is actually there between each of those cars.
And further, 75 in the left lane is impeding traffic in most major cities. If you're going 75 in the far left lane in LA/Dallas/Houston/etc then you are the one causing problems, legal or not.
OhTheHueManatee · 3 points · Posted at 19:05:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If I am in the left lane and see someone coming up on me I'll get out of their way as soon as it's safe. If you want to drive faster than me I want you ahead of me not behind me. The person who doesn't give you the chance to get out their way is also the person that'll cut in front of another car in the right lane making that car slam on their breaks. I won't do that.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 00:20:41 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 00:23:01 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
At 110 mph in a street vehicle? No.
88slides · 3 points · Posted at 19:08:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This, but moreso. The middle lane is not the right lane. When people park in the middle lane on a 3-lane highway it causes almost as many backups as being in the leftmost lane. In general, if you look to your right and don't see a car, move right a lane. Rinse and repeat.
funkmasta_kazper · 2 points · Posted at 17:59:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is actually not true in Maryland. While most states have laws on the books stating exactly what you just said, in Maryland both lanes are treated as completely equal in the eyes of the law. You can legally drive whatever speed you want and for however long you want in any lane. I strongly suspect that this is why Maryland drivers are the worst in the world.
Chross · 4 points · Posted at 17:39:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I've never once seen someone not breaking the law get screwed over by someone doing the speed limit in the left lane. I completely agree with your statement but I just find it interesting that we demonize speed limit drivers for following the law (in those places where it is not explicitly against the law to be in the left hand lane). And sure we could say it's because we want the lane to be clear for emergency vehicles but we all know we want it to be clear so we can get to places faster. Sure, driving slower than others causing them to weave through traffic will cause more accidents... but I never see anyone bring up that most people don't understand that the speed limit is the maximum speed you are allowed to move your vehicle along a road.
That being said... outta my way, I'm late for work.
[deleted] · 8 points · Posted at 16:07:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The "left lane is for passing only" law makes little sense: it sets up two conflicting sets of laws that drivers have to follow.
The speed limit on the interstate I take to work is 55 MPH. If I'm going 65 MPH in the left lane, I'm holding up traffic behind me. So the police could ticket me over for both going too slow, and too fast. I don't know why we're allowed to have laws that conflict in such a way that an action could be considered both illegal for doing too much, and illegal for not doing enough.
Second, anyone who complains about slow drivers in the left lane don't have a leg to stand on. Their argument is basically:
1) I want to break the law by speeding
2) You are impeding my ability to break the law because you're going a legal speed in the left lane
3) You impeding my ability to break the law is also an instance of breaking the law
4) You shouldn't break the law
You're arguing that since it's illegal for a person to impede you from doing something illegal, you're in the right and they're in the wrong. It's an incoherent argument.
Zncon · 10 points · Posted at 17:58:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Traveling at a significantly different speed (+/- 10 MPH) then the rest of traffic is more dangerous then maintaining a higher speed.
I'd actually consider this a core issue with our fixed speed limit system. If the majority of traffic is traveling 15 MPH over the posted limit, someone traveling at the limit is much more likely to be the cause of an accident. Breaking the law to match the average speed is safer.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 18:52:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I agree (partially). What's at issue in my mind is we have two sets of traffic laws that contradict one another. One set of laws says you can't go faster than x mph. The other says you're breaking the law if you aren't actively getting out of the way of people going much faster than x mph.
We need to pick one law or the other. Having both laws in place is a recipe for car accidents.
However, I don't agree that the person going the speed limit is the cause of an accident. If someone going 15 over collides with someone going the speed limit, it's victim blaming to say the person going the speed limit was at fault.
Zncon · 2 points · Posted at 19:46:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I didn't quite go into this, so let me clarify. I would say the slow driver is the cause, but they are not at fault. Other drivers who are likely to pass them in an unsafe manner would be at fault.
If everyone who wanted to get around them slowed down to match them, the difference in speed would be eliminated and the danger reduced. However we're butting heads with human nature here, so I can't say that's a real solution.
As to the contradicting laws, they really don't. You can travel at the speed limit in the right most lane without violating any law. The laws which cover moving out of the way for faster traffic are not concerned about overall speed. On a 70 mph road, a car traveling at 40 mph is required to move over for one traveling at 50 mph.
HorribleTroll · 9 points · Posted at 17:28:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Here's how you resolve it: lane position trumps speed. Speed is arbitrary up to a certain point, as most highways are designed to be safely traveled at faster than posted speed by vehicles with less capability than the one you're driving now. Lane position is NOT arbitrary. You're either in that lane, or you're not. The posted speed is a law, yes, and many choose not to follow it. It's your duty, however, to create the safest environment for all drivers regardless of the laws they choose to break. Allowing others passage with a minimum number of required lane changes and potential vehicular hazards is safer for both you and the speeder, and therefore leaving the passing lane open what you should do in the situation if possible.
majoroutage · 7 points · Posted at 18:04:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No, it's not, because it doesn't matter what they are doing. Nothing gives you a right to impede them.
Speed isn't dangerous. Speed disparity is. By not moving over, you are making the situation less safe.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 18:47:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If there's a large disparity between the speed of two cars where one car is going the speed limit, and one is going well over the speed limit, how can you argue that the car going the speed limit is the one making the situation dangerous?
majoroutage · 1 points · Posted at 18:54:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I said "more dangerous".
The safest response is to move out of their way. Creating a situation where they have to brake or switch lanes is not prudent driving.
You are not the police. You have no legal authority to regulate their speed.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:03:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I understand that it's safer to move out of the way. That's not what I'm arguing. My arguments are 1) we shouldn't have traffic laws that are in conflict with one another, and 2) that it's incoherent to argue that since someone stopping you from breaking the law is illegal, they are in the wrong and you are in the right.
As for "You are not the police. You have no legal authority to regulate their speed." that's the exact argument someone going the speed limit in the left lane could give in response.
88slides · 2 points · Posted at 19:14:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No, because the law is: if you aren't passing you don't use the passing lane. Period. If you are going the speed limit in the leftmost lane and passing somebody, while frustrating sometimes, you're in the clear. If you're in the leftmost lane going the speed limit and not passing someone, you are breaking the law.
majoroutage · 2 points · Posted at 19:15:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There is no incoherence. The law says "yield to faster traffic". It doesn't say "only if they are obeying the speed limit".
erichf3893 · 2 points · Posted at 18:41:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I get what you're saying, but you seem to be missing the reasoning behind the law.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:45:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I understand the reasoning behind the law. And if the "left lane is for passing" was the only law applicable to the situation I'd be completely fine with it. It's the fact that we have laws that conflict with one another that irks me.
What's the reasoning for saying that someone going 65 in a 55 can be ticketed for both going to fast and too slow?
erichf3893 · -1 points · Posted at 20:55:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Different times of day with different amounts of traffic. Going 10+ over is safer than the speed limit if that is the speed of traffic. You say you get it but aren't really showing it lol
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 00:01:50 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
The question should be "am I passing someone or not?" If you're passing someone you're fine. If you're not move over. Don't worry about speed or holding people up as long as you're actively passing. People will probably still get mad at you for passing too slow or whatever but fuck them. If you're passing you're good.
Jorrissss · 1 points · Posted at 17:12:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The OP didn't make a legal argument.
venomous_frost · 3 points · Posted at 16:05:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A lot of people always say "I was driving in the left lane because I was speeding, slow people shouldn't be in the left lane", that irritates me so much. idc if you're going 200km/h, if you aren't passing you move the fuck over.
88slides · 2 points · Posted at 19:17:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is completely correct. People who drive 5 over the speed limit and then "own" the left lane because they're speeding should be hanged
blakeh95 · 2 points · Posted at 15:35:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Exactly. This actually leads to more traffic accidents than speeding, because drivers get stuck behind someone cruising in the left lane and drive more aggressively. Slower traffic keep right.
donoteatthatfrog · 1 points · Posted at 16:09:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ha ha. In India highways, the slowest moving overloaded trucks are the ones crawling in the rightmost lane (supposedly passing lane).
wolfmanpraxis · 1 points · Posted at 17:52:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Some states have clear passing lane* laws.
e.g. if not actively passing, you must remain in the right lane
edit: adjusted wording
mattthemobile · 1 points · Posted at 17:52:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Thank you!
thomasbomb45 · 1 points · Posted at 17:58:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to use a period
run_mochila · 1 points · Posted at 18:32:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I stay in the left lane because I never stop passing people.
bahnmiagain · 1 points · Posted at 18:33:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Tell that to anyone in Los Angeles rush hour traffic.
e9r0q2eropqweopo · 1 points · Posted at 18:39:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Mostly true, but this does not apply when you are on a highway that is packed to the point where all the lanes need to be full to best accommodate the traffic.
Sure, every single car on a packed rush-hour highway would love it if the left lane cleared out so they could pass everyone and have a chance to actually go the speed limit. It's not gonna happen and it's not against the law to stay in the left lane instead of trying to weave back and forth out of the already too full right lane.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:23:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You should not be going over the speed limit just to pass someone that is driving to the speed limit though
darwin2500 · 1 points · Posted at 19:26:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Depends on traffic. I'm near LA and if everyone here stayed in the right lane instead of using all the available lanes fully, it would take me 2 hours to drive 10 miles instead of only taking 1 hour to drive 10 miles.
instant_Amnesia · 1 points · Posted at 19:35:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes! So much yes! I always see that here in germany. I wish the police would do more against those people!
Nocturnalized · 1 points · Posted at 19:36:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You will find that laws differ from country to country and even state to state. You will even find that some silly countries/states will have exits in the left hand lane.
That being said, your statement is largely true - just don't think it is universally true.
growlingbear · 1 points · Posted at 19:59:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not if you're in town. The extra lanes are to keep traffic flowing. Plus they may need to turn.
dblmjr_loser · 1 points · Posted at 20:02:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yea ok well when we get 4 lane highways I'll do this until then I'm just gonna keep driving on the left because then I'd be weaving in an out of the right lane like a maniac which would be less safe than just sticking to the left.
GrumpyGoomba9 · 1 points · Posted at 20:03:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It is illegal to stay in the right lane in the UK.
introspeck · 1 points · Posted at 22:31:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My state used to post signs saying "Slow Traffic Keep Right". It didn't work, because the slow ones in the left land didn't think of themselves as "Slow Traffic." So they eventually changed the signs over to say "Keep Right Except To Pass." Still doesn't work - they're passing, sure, just 0.05 mph faster than the car to the right. Feh.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 16:28:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This should be higher.
kcjg8 · 0 points · Posted at 16:51:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I really wish this was enforced. I was on a good 30 mile drive the other day and the first 20 felt like forever because nobody would get over and I'd have to weave through traffic or get stuck behind two people going the same speed. The last 10 miles were like heaven cuz everyone got out of the way
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:38:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
kcjg8 · 1 points · Posted at 07:35:27 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
it shouldn't matter what i did with my time.... if you are in the left lane and think because you are going above the speed limit that you belong in that lane, you are wrong.... Even if you are exceedingly past the speed limit, you should be going to the right lane when given a reasonable chance. Take all other thoughts out of driving. Anything but self preservation is dangerous
TheCastro · 0 points · Posted at 18:19:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's not a US law, it's not even the law in the majority of states. Most states say it's ok to pass on the right if a car is turning left, or there are two or more lanes traveling in the same direction.
VokN · 0 points · Posted at 15:45:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I thought one of the big differences was that there is no lane discipline in the US compared to the UK etc.
PsychologicallyFat · 0 points · Posted at 19:36:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The way I see it, driving in the left lane is acceptable if you're driving consistently at a plausible passing speed. That'll vary by location - in Ontario the standard I see is 20km/h above the speed limit.
OhTheHueManatee · -1 points · Posted at 18:58:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't understand why everyone hates left lane drivers? First off it's not illegal where I am. Second the right lane is a nightmare to drive in. People love to come to complete stops in the right lane before making simple turn offs (with no single), come to a stop to wave a person in while making 20 cars behind them stop, and they love to suddenly leap into the right lane either from a driveway or from the left lane to make a sudden right turn (with no signal). Plus you have to watch for the guy who uses the shoulder as a lane cause he is turning right in a 1000 feet but doesn't want to sit in traffic before his turn. What problem am I causing by staying in the left lane away from that madness? I'm always trying to improve my driving so I'd genuinely like to know.
PotassiumAstatide · -1 points · Posted at 18:59:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I understand the safety rationale behind it, but...Seriously? An entire lane going mostly unused? All that wasted space...
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 00:04:42 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
PotassiumAstatide · 0 points · Posted at 01:25:31 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
People passing << people just driving at any given time. Unless there's an entire convoy of trucks or something
moviesgamesandvideos · 103 points · Posted at 16:00:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Progressive tax system. A 90% tax on earnings over £100,000 does not mean you only get to keep £10,000 of your earnings.
CrossFox42 · 26 points · Posted at 17:32:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Could you explain to an uneducated idiot like myself?
Blarfk · 56 points · Posted at 17:44:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
For this example, I'm just going to make up numbers, but this is the general idea.
Say there is a 25% tax on income for $0-to $99,999, and a 50% tax on $100,000 and up.
If you make $125,000, you only pay 50% taxes on the $25,000 you made above $100,000, not your entire income. You pay 25% on the rest, just as everyone else would. This makes it so that you will never lose money by moving into a higher tax bracket, as some people believe, because you are only paying the higher percentage on income above that level.
CrossFox42 · 20 points · Posted at 17:51:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ah so the 90% is just the accumulated tax over your wages. So 25% on 0-99 and 30% on 99-110, etc. It's not literally "You are losing 90% of your income"
Blarfk · 23 points · Posted at 17:54:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Correct! A lot of people don't get this and think there are just straight brackets - that if you made $99,999 you'd only pay 25% and if you jump up to $100,000 you'd pay 50%. But the higher rate is only applied to the amount you make in that new bracket.
CrossFox42 · 2 points · Posted at 18:05:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Got it. Thsnks! I knew s bit how marginal taxes worked, but was thrown off by the "90%" tax bit haha
Nintendroid · 2 points · Posted at 19:06:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
TIL!
-PM-ME-YOUR-BOOBIES · 2 points · Posted at 18:19:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Still, 90% ?? That's ridiculous. I'm basically not making over 100,000 at that point.
Blarfk · 4 points · Posted at 18:21:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I just made that number up for ease of the example.
In reality its 25% on $37,950 to $91,900, and 28% on $91,900 to $191,650.
In fact the highest is only 39.60% for everything over $418,400.
-PM-ME-YOUR-BOOBIES · 1 points · Posted at 18:21:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oh that's much better
wahh · 1 points · Posted at 19:40:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you take a look at the history of tax bracket rates in the United States the top bracket, the rates got insanely high. It peaked at 94% in 1944 and 1945.
https://taxfoundation.org/us-federal-individual-income-tax-rates-history-1913-2013-nominal-and-inflation-adjusted-brackets/
reid8470 · 1 points · Posted at 20:08:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Worth noting that the upper tax brackets taxed a substantially higher percentile of income than they do today. It was also during wartime to pay off debts, but high upper-bracket taxes persisted for ~30 years following WWII.
At the start of JFK's presidency, the upper tax bracket was 91% on income above roughly $400,000 -- accounting for inflation alone, that would be roughly $3 million today.
When you account for both inflation and growing income disparities (what percentile that amount accounted for), it'd be around $45 million today if you contrasted 2017's CEO-to-median worker compensation with 1965's, or roughly $15 million if you contrasted 2017's top 0.1%-to-median worker compensation with 1965's.
The 1963 tax bracket taxed roughly 4,400 people at that rate. Today, that'd be ~7,500 out of a country of 325 million. If you stuck solely to the percentiles, it'd be income above roughly $7-8 million per year.
wahh · 1 points · Posted at 20:50:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Those are all good things to keep in mind, yes. However, I still think it's ridiculous that the rates ever got that high. Granted, most of the people earning anywhere near that found other ways to get around it, like paying themselves in stock options so they could be taxed at the much lower capital gains rate when they decided to cash in their stocks. I'm not entirely sure when that capital gains tax rate kicked in from a historical standpoint, but I have a feeling it was created to get around those rates.
reid8470 · 1 points · Posted at 21:21:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Interestingly enough, capital gains tax rates were actually increased in the late 60s, 70s, and 80s following income tax cuts to account for revenue reductions.
They didn't start to be reduced until the late 90s and early 2000s, where a substantial amount of the rate was cut off, and a fair portion of our current deficit is blamed on those standard income and capital gains tax cuts that occurred in 1997, 2001, and 2003 preceding major federal spending increases (primarily DHS and Iraq+Afghanistan) heading into a major recession.
In response to the growing deficit through the Recession, they were raised slightly in 2010, 11, and 13.
moviesgamesandvideos · 3 points · Posted at 19:05:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well to take the UK as an example, there's no income tax if you earn less than £11,500. Those earning between £11,500 to £45,000 are taxed at 20%, those earning £45,000 to £150,000 are taxed at 40% and it's 45% tax on those earning £150,000+.
Except that's wrong.
Let's say you earn £47,000.
The first £11,500 you earn is untaxed completely. Then your income between £11,500 and £45,000 is taxed at 20%; £45,000 minus £11,500 is £33,500, so the 20% tax is applied to £33,500 of your income.
And then for the final £2,000 of your income (your salary £47,000 minus the £45,000 that has already been accounted for above), the government takes 40% of this.
So instead of paying 40% tax on your £47,000 salary (which is £18,800), you actually pay £6700 + £800 = £7500.
obligarchy1 · 2 points · Posted at 17:43:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But what about 10% of 90% tax
szymonwalle · 1 points · Posted at 19:10:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's the same as 90% of 10% tax
jogur · 1 points · Posted at 18:19:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If earnings above 100k are taxed 90% what is the point of even trying to earn more?
jivow · 3 points · Posted at 18:40:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There isn't much - that's the point.
In theory you will either give most of those earnings to the country to help it develop or give it to your employees or re-invest it. In theory the idea is to tax earnings in such way to prevent money hoarding (In practise such taxes aren't applied.)
OnAKaiserRoll · 2 points · Posted at 19:53:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You just found the reason that almost all country's tax brackets top out at roughly 50%. The only cases in which 90% tax brackets were used they were either paired with ridiculous deduction schemes or it was during a time of war.
moviesgamesandvideos · 0 points · Posted at 18:56:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I know right?! How does that income change your lifestyle at all really? By that point it's just extra 0s on your bank balance rather than anything that changes the way you live.
Abiogeneralization · 38 points · Posted at 16:08:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Bra sizing.
I'll just let r/ABraThatFits explain.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 19:51:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Great point. I wear a 32C and while some/most people think a C cup breast is pretty big, I am most definitely NOT big-breasted. The cup size varies with the band size - a C cup on a 32C bra is way smaller than a C cup on a, say 38C bra.
SuggestiveDetective · 3 points · Posted at 20:12:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Thank you! I just explained to someone this morning that 32E is not porn star huge or obese sizing. Media tells us that D and DD are YUGE knockers, and I'm like...those girls' bras are not a D. D-cups are not enormous if fitted correctly.
Edit: http://www.epbot.com/2013/04/everything-you-never-knew-you-needed-to.html
MaximRecoil · 3 points · Posted at 20:42:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
D-cup is big if the band size is at least 36. D-cup is enormous if the band size is e.g., 42, but with a band-size of 42, she'd be a "whole lotta woman". 42-39-56... you could say she's got it all!
iKILLcarrots · 5 points · Posted at 18:14:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That top Post about the creeper makes me sad. What a dick.
Abiogeneralization · 2 points · Posted at 18:16:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
First day on the internet?
iKILLcarrots · 1 points · Posted at 18:19:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Nah, I'm just weird and like seeing things like this sub where you can find other people to figure out life and feel unsafe because of other people's shitty behavior. I know it comes hand in hand with the territory but his "Don't want comments, don't post" shit makes me want to hit my head against something hard.
Abiogeneralization · 2 points · Posted at 18:21:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Unsafe?
Now I'm imagining some neckbeard who thinks it's cool to comment like that on a bra size subreddit crawling through a monitor to attack someone like the girl from The Ring...
themeanreds96 · 296 points · Posted at 16:07:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I have said it before and I will say it again:
"I don't speak with an accent" or what every midwest American says, "I wish I spoke with an accent".
Of course you do. Everyone does. It's quite literally impossible to speak without one. Why don't people understand this?
organicflower · 72 points · Posted at 18:03:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It is called phonics. There are rules to pronounce every word and Boston isn't following any of them.
WarlockSyno · 7 points · Posted at 19:52:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The word phonics doesn't follow phonics. Fuck that.
Absynthexx · 18 points · Posted at 18:32:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Midwesterner here. Used to be like you said. Then one guy blew my mind with a simple question: "what is on top of your house?"
A 'ruhf' I said.
"Don't you mean...a Roof?"
Mekroval · 5 points · Posted at 19:20:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Can confirm. I moved to Michigan last year and hear "ruhf" all the time. Sounds odd to my Eastern ears, though my mother is from Ohio, so I've heard it pronounced that way before. (Still getting used to "parking ramps" instead of parking garages, though that seems to be more a Michigan thing than Midwest).
Edit: a word
Baynex · 2 points · Posted at 19:39:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I've lived in metro detroit nearly my whole life....what the hell is a parking ramp?
Mekroval · 0 points · Posted at 21:33:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In West Michigan, it's what they call a parking garage structure. Took me a while to figure this out when I first got here (I was literally looking for some kind of off-ramp).
Edit: Did a quick check, turns out it's also a common expression in Buffalo, Wisconsin and other parts of the Upper Midwest. Though other parts of the Midwest call them "garages" like everyone else. https://www.waywordradio.org/parking-garage-parking-ramp/
--arete-- · 0 points · Posted at 22:11:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Midwesterner here. I’ve also been told it’s fire, not fyer.
introspeck · 0 points · Posted at 22:36:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
At least it keeps the wooter out (how I always heard the word "water" in NJ).
Horricule · 38 points · Posted at 17:36:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oh yeah I wish us midwesterners had an accent youbetcha
9851231698511351 · 40 points · Posted at 18:07:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's not an accent if it's the one true god given way to speak the language.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 19:51:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If it's good enough for the TV producers, it should be good enough for everyone. :D
[deleted] · 23 points · Posted at 17:57:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If everyone has an accent, then why are only certain people said to 'speak with an accent'?
alexhchu · 33 points · Posted at 18:09:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Because in a majority, people consider their accent to be normal, and will label other accents as such. For example, in America, people may label accents as British/Australian/Canadian, whereas in England, people would divide the accents by region, and say that people from America have accents instead.
TIGHazard · 8 points · Posted at 18:15:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My tip is: Record you own voice and play it back.
People think "That doesn't sound like me". It is, just your brain removes the accent. And because it knows what yours sounds like, it does the same for people with similar accents to yours (i.e. your town/state/region)
kinrif · 3 points · Posted at 22:16:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
While this effect might exist in small degree, It isn't the reason we sound different. The bones in our head transmit the sound from our vocal cords directly to our ears so we hear both the sound others do and a more resonant deeper sound which both intermix to result in the sound of our own voice.
People know when they have an accent. We can feel ourselves pronouncing words in different ways. We can learn a new accent, or try to eliminate the old by changing our pronunciation to one less distinctive. If we could not determine our own accent, none of that would be possible.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 18:13:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yea I'm still iffy on the subject. I was raised in Los Angeles, and I moved to Southern Louisiana when I was 20. Have lived here 20 years now, I've never noticed anyone's accent being much different than what was in Los Angeles. What I do notice, is people are more upbeat when they talk about things, which may be mistaken for an accent. /shrug. And even down here, I've never heard someone talk about a Chicago, or LA, or New York accent..
sociobubble · 19 points · Posted at 18:29:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You still have an American accent though. Any English speaker from outside the US will identify it instantly, with perhaps some difficulty separating it from Canadian.
growlingbear · 2 points · Posted at 19:49:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah. We're the ones that don't say sorry, because...we're not.
kinrif · 1 points · Posted at 22:19:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I was born and reared in the States and both English and Australian people abroad have not been able to confidently identify an American accent in my case. They do however know that I do not have either an Australian or English accent.
TheShadowKick · 3 points · Posted at 21:47:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I moved from Wisconsin to Kentucky when I was young and had trouble understanding some of my teachers for the first year.
ApertureMusic · 1 points · Posted at 21:47:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think regional accents are fading a bit as people move around a lot more and from the effect of most media using a very neutral accent to have broad appeal. Have you not met people who speak with a stereotypical Southern Accent? Talking to people from Louisiana I can definitely hear an accent distinct from what someone in California sounds like. Texans can also have fairly distinct accents, but again, since people from all over the country, and even the world, move to Houston for work, you get a lot of people with more neutral accents.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 21:57:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"Have you not met people who speak with a stereotypical Southern Accent?"
I really haven't. And I often try to pay attention to conversations in restaurants and bars, etc. because I've always been curious about accents and expected to hear a difference at least sometimes. They pretty much sound the same here as in LA, to me. I dunno, it's probably not worth having a lengthy discussion about, just one of those things.
Erinysceidae · 6 points · Posted at 19:05:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Playing Breath of the Wild the other day, I was confused because all the speaking characters have accents except the Gorons. Then I realized no, they have California/western-American accents, and so do I, so I was just missing it.
Not sure why everyone else is European, but the Gorons are valley dudes, but okay.
[deleted] · 5 points · Posted at 18:26:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I posted this before, but when I was a telephone operator I got a BT (UK) operator who said in a perfect London accent, "Ma'am I do not speak with a 'British Accent'." It was adorable and me and my customer started laughing and the guy seemed annoyed but of course he was too British to complain about it.
[deleted] · 13 points · Posted at 17:23:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
efskap · 13 points · Posted at 18:15:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
boy it really rattles my bones when someone says that african american vernacular (or god forbid "ebonics") is "wrong" English.
As if English is just one monolithic dialect rather than a grouping of similar mutually intelligible dialects.
CourierOfTheWastes · 12 points · Posted at 18:26:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Aren't there a set of standard grammatical rules?
Honestly questioning.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 19:15:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes, but there are still dialects of languages that are perfectly valid versions. There's no such thing as proper language.
Ikbeneenpaard · 1 points · Posted at 05:00:37 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
At least in English. In other languages it's more rigorous (e.g. French)
sheedy22 · 1 points · Posted at 19:24:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Maybe a few hundred years ago it would be fine. But the English language is now stanardized. It is wrong english, as its grammatical structure and spelling is completely different from taught English. If you took west virginian hillbillies and listened to them talk, you wouldnt say they had a peculiar dialect, you would say they were uneducated and possibly not intelligent.
TheShadowKick · 1 points · Posted at 21:48:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's not standard English, it's a dialect of English. It's no more wrong than spelling color with a 'u'.
sheedy22 · 1 points · Posted at 23:42:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
....which is wrong. The whole point of teaching standardized grammar and spelling to encourage homogenity, allowing others to communicate easily, and prevent drastic, local changes of the language. This "dialect" is fairly recent and has roots in celebrating uneducated vernacular, and misspelling not to celebrate diversity, but ignorance.
TheShadowKick · 1 points · Posted at 23:56:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm certain you can find similar arguments against new dialects throughout English's history. And here we are, still Englishing on.
Ikbeneenpaard · 1 points · Posted at 05:11:15 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sorry to belabour a point neighbour, but "colour" is a correct spelling of the word (grey is my favourite). I have a good sense of humour so no need to apologise.
sheedy22 · 1 points · Posted at 19:49:54 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Are you realy trying to argue that spelling color and grey differently makes it a different dialect?
Ikbeneenpaard · 1 points · Posted at 19:56:12 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
You claimed spelling "colour" with a "u" is wrong. But it's actually correct English.
efskap · 4 points · Posted at 18:40:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sure, that's Standard English, but that doesn't make other dialects "wrong".
sheedy22 · 3 points · Posted at 19:23:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Maybe a few hundred years ago it would be fine. But the English language is now stanardized. It is wrong english, as its grammatical structure and spelling is completely different from taught English. If you took west virginian hillbillies and listened to them talk, you wouldnt say they had a peculiar dialect, you would say they were uneducated and possibly not intelligent.
sheedy22 · 1 points · Posted at 19:23:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Maybe a few hundred years ago it would be fine. But the English language is now stanardized. It is wrong english, as its grammatical structure and spelling is completely different from taught English. If you took west virginian hillbillies and listened to them talk, you wouldnt say they had a peculiar dialect, you would say they were uneducated and possibly not intelligent.
sheedy22 · 1 points · Posted at 19:23:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Maybe a few hundred years ago it would be fine. But the English language is now stanardized. It is wrong english, as its grammatical structure and spelling is completely different from taught English. If you took west virginian hillbillies and listened to them talk, you wouldnt say they had a peculiar dialect, you would say they were uneducated and possibly not intelligent.
sheedy22 · 1 points · Posted at 19:23:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Maybe a few hundred years ago it would be fine. But the English language is now stanardized. It is wrong english, as its grammatical structure and spelling is completely different from taught English. If you took west virginian hillbillies and listened to them talk, you wouldnt say they had a peculiar dialect, you would say they were uneducated and possibly not intelligent.
sheedy22 · 1 points · Posted at 19:23:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Maybe a few hundred years ago it would be fine. But the English language is now stanardized. It is wrong english, as its grammatical structure and spelling is completely different from taught English. If you took west virginian hillbillies and listened to them talk, you wouldnt say they had a peculiar dialect, you would say they were uneducated and possibly not intelligent.
sheedy22 · 0 points · Posted at 19:23:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Maybe a few hundred years ago it would be fine. But the English language is now stanardized. It is wrong english, as its grammatical structure and spelling is completely different from taught English. If you took west virginian hillbillies and listened to them talk, you wouldnt say they had a peculiar dialect, you would say they were uneducated and possibly not intelligent.
sheedy22 · 0 points · Posted at 19:23:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Maybe a few hundred years ago it would be fine. But the English language is now stanardized. It is wrong english, as its grammatical structure and spelling is completely different from taught English. If you took west virginian hillbillies and listened to them talk, you wouldnt say they had a peculiar dialect, you would say they were uneducated and possibly not intelligent.
sheedy22 · 2 points · Posted at 19:21:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Maybe a few hundred years ago it would be fine. But the English language is now stanardized. It is wrong english, as its grammatical structure and spelling is completely different from taught English. If you took west virginian hillbillies and listened to them talk, you wouldnt say they had a peculiar dialect, you would say they were uneducated and possibly not intelligent.
sheedy22 · 2 points · Posted at 19:22:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Maybe a few hundred years ago it would be fine. But the English language is now stanardized. It is wrong english, as its grammatical structure and spelling is completely different from taught English. If you took west virginian hillbillies and listened to them talk, you wouldnt say they had a peculiar dialect, you would say they were uneducated and possibly not intelligent.
BozuOfTheWaterDogs · 3 points · Posted at 18:36:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't want to be this guy, but I have to....ebonics can get incredibly stupid...it reminds me so much of meme language and whatever they speak in 1984, Newspeak(?)
With that said, I try not to care because I can be stupid as well. I guess I just want people to put in a bit of an effort rather than sound like a bafoon. And I'm not being racist, soooo many white people in my area have picked up that vernacular...it's fucking embarrassing to think we are speaking a similar language.
efskap · 4 points · Posted at 18:42:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It might look stupid from the oustide, but AAVE is complex in its own way, with a lot of interesting features.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_American_Vernacular_English#Distinctive_features
BozuOfTheWaterDogs · 5 points · Posted at 18:48:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I find it interesting but little more than that. Plus I grew up around it and continue to be surrounded by it. It's not just stupid from the outside; it's demeaning to their personhood and idividuality.
Every language and "spin off" is quite compelling to me but that doesn't mean I have to like it, ya know? It sounds like someone scratching metal across a chalkboard. Same with meme words. I hate it. It's the degradation of the English language in my eyes. However, this day was bound to pass and my generation has done jack shit to educate themselves so I'm quite sure it's downhill from here on out.
efskap · 5 points · Posted at 18:58:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oh yeah, of course you don't have to like it!
imo it's just good to be aware that while it may seem like degradation due to being simpler in some areas, it has evolved complexity in other non-obvious ones.
BozuOfTheWaterDogs · 3 points · Posted at 19:05:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I definitely want to be aware of things and be able to speak with people on the subject.
I'm really glad I'm not being called a racist...thanks for the link as well!
sheedy22 · 1 points · Posted at 19:22:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Maybe a few hundred years ago it would be fine. But the English language is now stanardized. It is wrong english, as its grammatical structure and spelling is completely different from taught English. If you took west virginian hillbillies and listened to them talk, you wouldnt say they had a peculiar dialect, you would say they were uneducated and possibly not intelligent.
sheedy22 · 1 points · Posted at 19:22:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Maybe a few hundred years ago it would be fine. But the English language is now stanardized. It is wrong english, as its grammatical structure and spelling is completely different from taught English. If you took west virginian hillbillies and listened to them talk, you wouldnt say they had a peculiar dialect, you would say they were uneducated and possibly not intelligent.
sheedy22 · 1 points · Posted at 19:22:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Maybe a few hundred years ago it would be fine. But the English language is now stanardized. It is wrong english, as its grammatical structure and spelling is completely different from taught English. If you took west virginian hillbillies and listened to them talk, you wouldnt say they had a peculiar dialect, you would say they were uneducated and possibly not intelligent.
fezzesarecool69 · 9 points · Posted at 19:29:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Holy shit dude, are you trapped in a time loop?
PacManDreaming · 2 points · Posted at 20:36:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I would reply to him, but I'd have to post it 14 times.
sheedy22 · 0 points · Posted at 19:22:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Maybe a few hundred years ago it would be fine. But the English language is now stanardized. It is wrong english, as its grammatical structure and spelling is completely different from taught English. If you took west virginian hillbillies and listened to them talk, you wouldnt say they had a peculiar dialect, you would say they were uneducated and possibly not intelligent.
corvidae_mantra · 3 points · Posted at 18:01:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I grew up in Milwaukee and I don't have an accent. So let me drink from this bubbler in peace.
corvidae_mantra · 1 points · Posted at 20:35:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Also let me run to the Tyme machine you plebs.
magicmann2614 · 3 points · Posted at 19:08:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Often times, the midwestern accent is the easiest for everyone to understand. That's why national news sounds like midwesterners. I once had to translate an English accent to midwestern for some Germans to understand.
Elpacoverde · 9 points · Posted at 17:53:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Our accent...is a lack of accent?
lee61 · 4 points · Posted at 19:43:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Boring and plain is our accent.
Elpacoverde · 2 points · Posted at 21:14:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's so they won't suspect anything.
avsalom · 1 points · Posted at 19:10:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Nope, wrong
Elpacoverde · 2 points · Posted at 21:14:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Listen here, bub.
HK_the_king · 5 points · Posted at 18:07:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But Midwest Americans have the perfectly neutral English accent.
mikerichh · 2 points · Posted at 18:02:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But not a COOL, PANTY DROPPING accent
TheShadowKick · 1 points · Posted at 21:49:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No accent drops panties in its home region. Except that sweet southern drawl.
Jpsh34 · 2 points · Posted at 18:04:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I have an accent but it's indiscernible, I grew up in Canada, on an Indian reservation with strong New York ties and have lived in the south for 13 of my 33 years, and another of those years in Philadelphia. It's a mesh of three or four different areas and I've found that I pick up some aspects of the accent everywhere I go.
growlingbear · 4 points · Posted at 19:52:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
TheShadowKick · 2 points · Posted at 21:50:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Has this already meme'd?
Finaglers · 2 points · Posted at 18:05:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"Because the way I talk is normal!"
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:12:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Americans/Canadians are the only people I have ever heard say that
CourierOfTheWastes · 2 points · Posted at 18:25:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I wish I spoke with a foreign accent.
Russian, English, Scottish, Irish, Mandarin, Canadian, French, Australian, but a real honest accent, not just a well practiced affected one.
YouProbablySmell · 2 points · Posted at 18:30:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Anyone can have an accent if they're willing to travel.
SirBackspace · 2 points · Posted at 18:32:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
People in the UK say I have an American accent. People in Bulgaria say I have an English accent. My head died.
DaddyCatALSO · 2 points · Posted at 19:04:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And your native accent doesn't sound like you think it does. I used to be amazed at British, Aussie, a nd Kiwi actors who could" flatten out their voices to sound so American." Turns out the north American accents aren't "flat."
Gnash_ · 2 points · Posted at 19:06:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What they really mean is their accent is (to them) the most common one.
For I, foreigner, most of the english I hear comes from socal or the bay area. Thus everyone that has an accent that's different to their seems to speak in an odd way to me, thus I'd say they speak with an accent. It's just because it's different to the one I'm most accustomed
palparepa · 2 points · Posted at 19:48:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
AGREED. MY VOICE
MODULATORALSO PRODUCES A HUMAN ACCENT.ZombiUnicorn · 2 points · Posted at 19:54:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What I think you mean is they don't have a more localized accent. Some Americans can sound like they are from anywhere in America. I grew up in Florida (I'm Cuban) and Texas for a long time and yet I have neither accent from either place. I'm a voice actress and can turn various accents on if I want, but without that I have a base "American accent" that could be from anywhere.
I think thats what most people are saying (at least in the US) when they say they don't have an accent.
silveraith · 2 points · Posted at 21:01:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
They usually mean "I wish I could properly emulate accents other than my own."
kinrif · 2 points · Posted at 22:12:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
An accent is "a distinctive mode of pronunciation of a language, especially one associated with a particular nation, locality, or social class." If a person does not speak with a distinctive mode of pronunciation of a language, they do not have an accent.
So, I guess I disagree
themeanreds96 · 0 points · Posted at 00:29:04 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ok then so let me ask you a question:
TLDR; no one is neutral and a neutral and accent-less way of speaking English doesn't exist. Sure there is a social agreed-upon prestigious accent that's valued higher than other but whatever. The reason people doubt the existence of accents in some people is because of perspective. If I lived in a small town my whole life and everyone spoke the same, I would hear no accent. If someone else from a completely different place visited my town, they would perceive my English to be different from theirs and label it as an accent.
kinrif · 1 points · Posted at 05:12:40 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I hear that, and I certainly agree that comparative differences will always exist. Where we disagree is that I suggest that there is a intonation that the person in Tokyo will not be able to associate with any particular region. I realize that this is simply becoming a question of semantics, but if regional variation from commonly accepted educational standards is minor enough, I would call that "no accent". i.e. an accent that is so bland as to be indeterminable.
In other words, I feel an accent requires a home to be called such. Sounding weird is not enough to qualify. A lisp sounds different, but is not an accent. Why? Because it is not the result of regional variation. Likewise, as long as the individual idiosyncrasies of a person's pronunciation of their language is not tied to a particular region or regions, they do not constitute an accent.
Again, I absolutely agree that we all talk differently. At this point it's just whether or not that difference should always be called an accent.
Zer0Gravity1 · 1 points · Posted at 19:44:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't have an accent = I wish I had an accent that was different than the norm because it sounds cool/fun.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_American
cruzweb · 1 points · Posted at 19:49:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A really neat little book came out at the end of last year about this very same thing
http://beltmag.com/product/speak-midwestern/
Sanctimonius · 1 points · Posted at 21:19:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
'You have an accent'.
'So do you.'
'No I don't, I'm from here.'
Almost every day.
union_jane · 16 points · Posted at 16:57:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You can't just keep being a dick and then saying sorry; at some point you have to change your behaviour.
whodiinne · 16 points · Posted at 17:31:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Trying to bargain with most front line employees won't get you a better deal, it will just make them hate you more.
ApertureMusic · 2 points · Posted at 21:48:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What if I give you cash, right now?
Tall_Mickey · 68 points · Posted at 17:50:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Entitled old people don't understand inflation. And don't wan to.
They were making $35K a year in 1975, and they could afford a house. Now they're dumping on their daughter or granddaughter who's making $45K and can't afford a house. "I could do it, WHAT'S WRONG WITH HER?
Never mind that $35K in 1975 is $164K in today money, and the house would only cost $211K inflation adjusted.
These are mainly uneducated people -- my mother among them -- but they look down from ignorant heights of pure luck and choose to judge all around them. Try to show them facts? They don't want to hear it.
driago · 3 points · Posted at 20:05:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This should be at the top.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:44:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
/r/worstgeneration
Tall_Mickey · 11 points · Posted at 18:53:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A lot of these guys are Silent Generation guys. Especially 75 and older. The economy was booming, there was a labor shortage. All they had to do, to do well, was show up to work and do what they were told. Edit: a fair number may have been in the service, but few of them went to war unless they volunteered. Korea was too early for most of them, Vietnam a bit on the late side.
You can blame some boomers, of course, and some Xers. Anybody who had it better than you do but won't admit it, even to themselves.
I realize that "all boomers" are a big, fat easy target. But so are "all millenials" for other types of sport, and isn't fair either way.
[deleted] · 5 points · Posted at 19:06:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I mean the only reason I throw Boomers under the bus is because they are guilty of doing the same to Millennials for pretty much everything. Whatever, they're not going to be a problem in 20 years anyways.
Tall_Mickey · 3 points · Posted at 19:30:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just, get it straight. If somebody around 50 is giving you shit for not being the success his noble self is, that's an Xer now.
We all got screwed, btw, or at least the ones who played to straight and didn't want to screw anybody else. They changed the rules in the '70s -- taxes on the rich went down, anti-trust enforcement stopped, and all the money drained out of the government recirculation machine and into a few private hands. And jobs were allowed to leave, and more foreign goods allow to come in buy rules that could be twisted to say that a product made overseas was really "American."
If it makes you feel any better, 50 percent of boomers -- and we're all over 55 now -- are facing retirement with basically no savings. They're going to start crashing and burning before you even generate much gray hair.
What happened is above generations; it was a 40-year-ago sell-out, and some people from every generation signed on. People in your own generation are throwing you under the bus right now.
What I'm 'celebrating' is the lucky ones being too dense to realize that they were simply lucky, and born at the right time.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:44:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Tall_Mickey · 4 points · Posted at 19:50:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Some were lucky, some weren't. I'm in my early '60s. My wife is 70 -- the earliest boomer that could possibly be. She had some ups and downs along the way. We both still work. She maxed on out on Social Security and is going to start taking it, but when we looked at what we'd be losing in income and what she'd be paying for Medigap and Medicare (BTW, Medicare payments are going up for everybody who files after 2016 with little rise for those already onboard, yeah, they're luckier all right), she decided to keep working. Till she drops. She almost "dropped" last year. It's scary up here.
Merkyorz · 2 points · Posted at 21:20:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There were also more government subsidies on things. For example, the old guys who boast about putting themselves through college just working at McDonald's. Well yeah...since the government was picking up 75% of the bill.
Then they voted to end most of those subsidies because herp derp privatize free market muh liberty I got mine so fuck you etc. And have the audacity to tell us to pull ourselves up by boostraps that they voted to shorten.
Tall_Mickey · 2 points · Posted at 21:38:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There were more government subsidies because of New Deal reforms that set ultra-high tax rates on wages above a certain amount, and also on capital gains. That began to be undone in late '70s -- I don't think it waited for Reagan, not sure -- and also certain programs started to cost more because people were living longer.
I'm not contradicting you at all, rejiggering the tax code and privatize/free market crap are just different sides of the same con.
introspeck · 2 points · Posted at 22:38:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Nah, it came home to me when I paid $150 for an alternator. I had in my head that they should cost around $40. And they did, in the late 70s when I first began repairing my own car.
hit1tou · 16 points · Posted at 17:25:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Health Insurance.
Gibslayer · 2 points · Posted at 19:18:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I mean a decent portion of the world doesn't need it. So it's understandable why the might not.
djs758 · 15 points · Posted at 18:17:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That Facebook has one goal: deliver ads to you.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:18:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
djs758 · 2 points · Posted at 18:23:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The MSM propaganda is paid for by someone. Ads disguised as news.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:25:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
djs758 · 2 points · Posted at 18:39:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
He's our real-life Lex Luther.
introspeck · 1 points · Posted at 22:39:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's long been true, the goal of newspapers and TV was always "selling eyeballs" to the advertisers.
djs758 · 1 points · Posted at 22:55:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But what facebook does is different. They collect all the data you provide to target you. If you dig deep enough in the settings, you can find and print your advertising profile.
introspeck · 1 points · Posted at 22:58:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's certainly more advanced. Older media had to work with broad averages, guesswork, lowest-common-denominator approaches for sure.
djs758 · 3 points · Posted at 23:06:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
not just advanced ... creepy as fuck
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/oct/02/facebook-sorry-secret-psychological-experiment-users
introspeck · 2 points · Posted at 00:00:01 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ugh.
I know a guy who writes software for a firm which gathers personal information for tracking and marketing. He says "Never mind the NSA, we know far more about you! It's scary how much we can determine just from purchases and public records."
AlrightyAlmighty · 1 points · Posted at 01:30:23 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just like every other online service that is free. Well, in fact, the actual goal is to make money any way. That's what businesses do. That's how they employ people.
djs758 · 1 points · Posted at 01:40:56 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sure, but Facebook has been known to do weird experiments on its users, like seeing if they can alter peoples' moods by showing a series of negative timeline content--then if you can force sadness, you can probably trigger certain people to buy junk food.
They aren't just selling ads. They are engaging in weird social engineering experiments.
AlrightyAlmighty · 1 points · Posted at 02:35:14 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, you hear those things about Facebook all the time. Though I guess it's not entirely different with YouTube, Google, Amazon, etc. Maybe even Reddit? :)
Kschl · 13 points · Posted at 17:29:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you're going slow get the f... out of the left lane and let people pass
Kronos_PRIME · 2 points · Posted at 19:11:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't think it's 90% BUT it only takes 1 of them to foul things up for everyone else. Even if it's 10% you will encounter several every drive. Sad truth.
TheShadowKick · 1 points · Posted at 23:38:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Early this year I traveled to Wisconsin to visit my brother in the hospital. I was staying with family in one city while he was hospitalized in the next city over, so it was a forty-five minute drive to go see him. His ex was taking his son up daily for visits, so she offered to drive me as well.
She would sit in the left lane. And when people were tailgating because she was going slow in the passing lane, she would get angry and deliberately block them. I never want to ride in a car with her again.
Kschl · 1 points · Posted at 05:47:38 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
She's the type of person I was talking about. Why do they feel they're entitled to the left lane.
TheShadowKick · 1 points · Posted at 05:59:17 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't know. I asked, and all I got was a vague answer about not caring about them, which doesn't explain, to me, why she'd be actively harmful to them.
Kschl · 1 points · Posted at 07:20:59 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just plain old selfishness
[deleted] · 93 points · Posted at 14:49:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
visionquester · 119 points · Posted at 15:22:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This begs the question, what evidence do you have that people don't understand how to use that phrase?
[deleted] · 25 points · Posted at 15:48:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 17:25:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This begs the question, why do people never use "begs the question" properly ?
Simon_Mendelssohn · 2 points · Posted at 18:13:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I beg your pardon?
momomotorboat · 14 points · Posted at 17:22:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Then you explain it, and 90% of people don't care.
Emeraldis_ · 11 points · Posted at 16:41:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How do people use it incorrectly? I'm not even sure that I've heard anyone actually use it, except in older books.
Just_Stalin · 9 points · Posted at 17:12:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I hope this helps: https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/53/Begging_the_Question
Emeraldis_ · 4 points · Posted at 18:02:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That does help, thanks!
994phij · 8 points · Posted at 17:33:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A lot of people say 'begs the question' when technically, they should say 'raises the question'.
wrong_assumption · 4 points · Posted at 18:05:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
99.9% of the time one means "raise the question." Why the other phrase exists befuddles me.
irrationalNumber · 4 points · Posted at 18:22:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The problem is that, on the face of it, it seems like it makes sense to use it the way most people do. "Begs the question" sounds nearly identical to "leads me to ask..." It doesn't at first glance seem like you're talking about circular reasoning.
SPACKlick · 3 points · Posted at 19:02:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Except that in modern english the archaic, philosophical meaning of question begging is deprecated. The majority of speakers mean and understand it to mean raises the relevant question.
AlrightyAlmighty · 2 points · Posted at 01:32:38 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes. Language is evolving fluently, constantly.
Thrumpledenoozitty · 6 points · Posted at 16:15:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oh god this yes. More often than not they mean "this raises the question".
Can I add to this the word "nonplussed". Please everyone, take a moment to look up the actual definition. It does not mean what you think it means.
DrDeadCrash · 6 points · Posted at 16:50:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'll just stop talking, thanks.
Thrumpledenoozitty · 3 points · Posted at 17:44:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Probably for the best.
Altiloquent · 4 points · Posted at 16:58:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Huh. It's practically it's own antonym because of informal usage
speehcrm1 · 1 points · Posted at 18:54:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Nah, it's more like bewildered vs indifferent, rather than self-conscious vs indifferent.
philsown · 1 points · Posted at 17:16:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
TIL, thanks
sounds_n_stuff · 1 points · Posted at 18:04:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Wait, what do people think nonplussed means?
speehcrm1 · 2 points · Posted at 18:46:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I usually hear it used as a cool showy synonym for "indifferent", which is funny to me because these fumbled attempts to sound smart practically scream the contrary.
Thrumpledenoozitty · 1 points · Posted at 18:05:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"Unimpressed".
sounds_n_stuff · 1 points · Posted at 18:25:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Hmh. I've never heard it used that way.
Thrumpledenoozitty · 1 points · Posted at 20:05:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I've very rarely heard it spoken, but it's all over the internet being egregiously misused. Ughhhhh
aether10 · 2 points · Posted at 19:13:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't really understand why 'beg the question' became the go-to name for that logical fallacy, it isn't very intuitive to me at all and alternatives like 'assumes the conclusion' or 'assumes the original point' make much more sense.
tres_chill · 1 points · Posted at 18:00:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oh please let me ask a question, please let me ask a question,
PLEASE LET ME ASK A QUESTION!
bezdeth · 1 points · Posted at 17:08:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm worried I'm using this wrong now. How should you use it?
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 18:05:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There is no 'right way' in the English language.
_neurotoxin_ · 0 points · Posted at 18:19:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This comment really begs the question as to why we should care about a relatively niche use of a phrase when another meaning, which is still a technically correct use of the words, has become much more widely accepted.
TheKhajiit · 2 points · Posted at 18:26:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's not even technically correct. "Begging the question" as an objective phrase outside of the name of a fallacy makes no sense.
Niptacular_Nips · 0 points · Posted at 17:40:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I have honestly never heard it used incorrectly. Can you give me an example of an incorrect usage you heard?
FatSquirrels · 3 points · Posted at 18:16:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It is nowadays usually used as "that raises the question..." which is technically incorrect. The phrase refers to a logical fallacy where you assume the answer in the argument or question.
However, this is one of those phrases that will soon have both meanings simply because so many people use it incorrectly that it is commonly understood that way.
gregorish · 28 points · Posted at 18:28:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Electrocute. Electricity and execute. If you are not dead, then you were shocked, not electrocuted.
marshmallow_pumpkin · 3 points · Posted at 19:58:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
To be honest I've been using that wrong this whole time, thanks for the correction
Varan04276 · 3 points · Posted at 20:01:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Huh TIL.
rgh360 · 13 points · Posted at 15:13:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Using the blinkers when switching lanes.
0bskurity · 3 points · Posted at 18:26:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Kronos_PRIME · 2 points · Posted at 19:03:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The finer detail:
Should be used to indicate a drivers intentions and is NOT for asking permission to change lanes. Any hesitation or uncertainty by the lane changer is bad form and creates more animosity or aggression than not using the turn signal in the first place.
TheShadowKick · 2 points · Posted at 23:39:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
On the other hand I often find people speeding up as soon as I signal that intention to change lanes, and if I didn't hesitate I'd end up in a traffic accident.
Kronos_PRIME · 1 points · Posted at 03:56:23 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I hear ya. I'm in Jersey, where courtesy towards other drivers is a sign of weakness. Took me a while to adapt.
TheShadowKick · 2 points · Posted at 04:05:25 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm also in Jersey, but I grew up in Kentucky where lack of courtesy towards other drivers is just plain rude. And also there's a ton less people so drivers can get away with being less aggressive.
Kronos_PRIME · 1 points · Posted at 11:56:23 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ah well hello neighbor. My comment was mostly tongue-in-cheek. I lived 35 years of my life outside of Jersey and I do agree. I still love the shocked look on peoples faces when you voluntarily let them merge into traffic or other random considerate acts.
I've always said, Situational Awareness is the most valuable skill you can have when driving anywhere.
pherring · 13 points · Posted at 16:37:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When the stock market tanks for a day or 2 or even a couple months the easiest thing to do is nothing. You don't lose till you sell or the company goes out of business.
juranomo · 2 points · Posted at 16:38:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Or buy cause stuff is cheaper!
pherring · 2 points · Posted at 16:42:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Exactly. I hear it from people all the time. Stock market crashed and I lost all my money. Can't trust anyone these days... it's like. Wait a day or 5 and see if it comes back.
eazolan · 1 points · Posted at 17:34:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My friend said that. Because he had all of his stock purchased through the company plan. Discounted company stock.
Then with the housing crash, the company went out of business.
pherring · 1 points · Posted at 00:19:59 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well yes. If he had Circuit City stock he is SOL now. However any financial planner is going to say not to put all your eggs in one basket in case the company shits the bed.
jbaird · 1 points · Posted at 18:25:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
either do nothing or buy more since everything is cheaper now :)
buckus69 · 12 points · Posted at 16:04:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The concept of "marginal." For example, I was guilty of and knew people who were afraid of making more money because then their tax liability would be higher and they would actually make less money.
No...the marginal tax is the tax on the NEXT dollar you earn, not the entire amount of your earnings.
Same with marginal profit...it tends to increase as volume goes up (assuming no other changes).
billFoldDog · 2 points · Posted at 20:42:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The reverse of this gets my goat.
The F35 cost a bunch of money per unit, so they reduce the order, and surprise, surprise it costs more per unit!
NO! There are up front costs divided over the number of planes produced. The money is already spent, might as well run the assembly lines a bit and get something out of it.
sauerpatchkid · 12 points · Posted at 16:06:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A lot of people don't understand the National Not Call Registry does not stop scammers. Which is also makes me realize how many people don't recognize the scammers that are calling them.
studoroma · 12 points · Posted at 16:33:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In national parks. When the sign says stay on trail, stay on the fucken trails and don't trample on nature
wolf_pack1997 · 2 points · Posted at 21:29:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I wish these people would be eaten by deer.
ballsdeepinasquealer · 1 points · Posted at 19:52:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I assume you saw the video of the Thai people in Yellowstone?
Env3us · 11 points · Posted at 18:50:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to shit in a public restroom without hitting the seat, wall, toilet paper, floor etc
CrazyCatHuman · 1 points · Posted at 20:19:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Dammit. Thought this comment was gonna be a lot more schwifty than it was
DecentUserName0000 · 21 points · Posted at 18:50:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The fact that Nazis are fascist not Republicans.
wolf_pack1997 · 2 points · Posted at 21:30:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Far-Right=idiots. Far-left=idiots. Nuff said.
[deleted] · 41 points · Posted at 14:57:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
not-quite-a-nerd · 23 points · Posted at 16:20:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The whole idea of 2 service lines in the drive-thru is dumb
[deleted] · 7 points · Posted at 16:21:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
not-quite-a-nerd · 3 points · Posted at 16:23:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It doesn't make anything faster so I don't know why they put another lane in. It would only work if they put another collection point in as well
anonymoushero1 · 21 points · Posted at 16:49:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes it does. The 2nd car, instead of sitting in line, is ordering food. The kitchen receives the order faster and starts making it sooner, so the car has to wait less time at the pickup window, which means the cars behind them get to the window faster, etc.
If you look at the whole picture, it's definitely speeding things up. It also helps reduce the traffic congestion in the parking lot that sometimes happens when a place gets busy.
Spazmer · 3 points · Posted at 17:03:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Was going to say the same thing. Say you order 20 chicken mcnuggets, they probably won't have that much ready. So with 2 lines your order is taken earlier and they can get your nuggets in the fryer and maybe have it ready by the time you're at the window, instead of sending you to the waiting spots.
7thgradet3acher · 1 points · Posted at 17:24:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
They should
Spazmer · 1 points · Posted at 17:39:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
At a non-meal time? That's disgusting. By the time someone actually ordered that much they'd have been sitting there for hours.
Abababeebabooba · 1 points · Posted at 20:00:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Everything CTO after dinner rush.
Isaac_The_Khajiit · 3 points · Posted at 16:40:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's probably to keep the line from being backed up into the road/parking lot and make the line appear shorter so that people will stop instead of looking for someplace else to eat.
not-quite-a-nerd · 1 points · Posted at 16:47:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I hadn't thought of that.
aRabidGerbil · 3 points · Posted at 17:18:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Isn't it more efficient to have one queue that splits at the point of service?
solus-mort · 1 points · Posted at 17:23:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There are some places that can do that... Burger Street (gone?) had 2 sevice lines. It seemed efficient.
ProjectKurtz · 2 points · Posted at 16:45:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I pulled in front of a cockknob who was doing this. He got so pissed and I just laughed and ignored him.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:43:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I do this just because I always end up behind some shithead that decides to take 25 minutes to order. I also regularly submit complaints about the damn system in hopes that they will get rid of it some day.
DevilDance1968 · 38 points · Posted at 17:31:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you shuffled a deck of playing cards, say roughed them up on a table or something, picked a card placed that card face up, picked another card placed it face up, etc etc by the time you have got to the end of the deck the chances are that you have picked them in an order that no one in the history of the world has ever done EVER.
bojackobsessed · 13 points · Posted at 18:32:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
https://youtu.be/ObiqJzfyACM
if anyone wants to watch it. he explains the incredible possibility of a random deck of cards at around 14 minutes.
bojackobsessed · 6 points · Posted at 18:29:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
vsauce does a great video on this if you haven't seen it.
IminPeru · 2 points · Posted at 19:44:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
cuz most people don't do that anyway.
jk jk, I know it's cuz is 252
Spiffy_Walrus · 49 points · Posted at 14:57:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That complaining about their life and asking for prayers on social media wont solve their problems
Kufu1796 · 3 points · Posted at 19:23:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You should surround yourself with the emotions you want to feel. Want to be happy? Be friends with the class clown! Want to be depressed? Preach about how your depression is stopping you from doing stuff. Knowing you have depression and admitting it is important, but you don't want to have a label that says I'm depressed. Having depression as part of your identity is a stupid fucking idea, it cements the fact that you're depressed in your brain.
PokeWaffles42 · 8 points · Posted at 15:48:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Reminder: Sort by Controversial
Hamsternoir · 9 points · Posted at 16:09:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Freedom of speech doesn't mean you should be an arsehole.
londyn7898 · 47 points · Posted at 15:57:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to say jalapeño. Dont ignore the ñ!
Spinolio · 27 points · Posted at 17:37:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
¡Hal-ah-PAIN-yo!
BoJackB26354 · 10 points · Posted at 17:59:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Get me some juh-lappen-oh chips, Bubbles.
picklechipcrunch · 1 points · Posted at 20:21:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
jalapenos? what flavor's that?
PM_PICS_OF_ME_NAKED · 5 points · Posted at 18:46:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ja-lop-en-oh is my favorite way of pissing off my brother-in-law.
Paladin4Life · 3 points · Posted at 19:20:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Holla atcha pain, yo
[deleted] · 11 points · Posted at 17:51:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
how do squiggly line
Syryll · 5 points · Posted at 18:22:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's alt+0241 iirc
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:25:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
what?
drizzlepop · 3 points · Posted at 19:00:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Hold down the alt key while you press 0 2 4 1 in order on the number pad, then release the alt key.
ñ
IminPeru · 5 points · Posted at 19:39:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
THIS IS THE BIGGEST TIL EVER
RawRooster · 2 points · Posted at 20:16:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
alt + numbers = cool signs™
HHcougar · 2 points · Posted at 20:39:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
or just... copy paste...
Imagine_Baggins · 2 points · Posted at 19:39:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Or just international keyboard: ~ + n
londyn7898 · 5 points · Posted at 18:33:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you're wondering how to type it, i am on mobile so i just hold the n button down and it pops up. If you're wondering how to say it, it is basically "ny" instead of "n"
IminPeru · 2 points · Posted at 19:39:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
like this ñ
dubsteponmycat · 4 points · Posted at 17:58:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
90%?. I don't know man, I might have met like... one person in my life that said it wrong?
londyn7898 · 1 points · Posted at 18:38:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Might just be a thing with the people im around.
HopefullyMrFixit · 4 points · Posted at 18:27:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Hal-ah-peyo
did i win?
fraulien_buzz_kill · 4 points · Posted at 19:31:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Gal-la-penis. There I did it.
bluemavis · 3 points · Posted at 18:55:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
.....and it's Puh-TIN not POOH-TEEN. Yet "I'd like a poutine" at the drive through is met with "Huh? OH YOU MEAN POOH-TEEN!" No. No I actually DON'T mean that at all. YOU are a POOH-TEEN. I'd like fries with gravy and cheese curds.
wrong_assumption · 2 points · Posted at 18:12:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
While we're at it, the Núñez last name isn't just pronounced Nunes, you animals. There's a famous government oficial that has that last name and grates my ears to hear everybody mispronouncing it.
ER_nesto · 2 points · Posted at 23:08:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Noo/nez vs noon/yez?
Erinysceidae · 2 points · Posted at 19:17:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oh man, tourists and enlisted folks trying to pronounce our Hispanic or Native (Kumeyaay, I believe, is our local tribe?) inspired street and place names.
"It's on... Jam-ah-ka"
"You mean Jamacha? ("Ham-ih-Shaw")
Had a lady on the phone from the east coast, looking at google maps and having trouble pronouncing "Pomerado" and "Poway"
croyalbird13 · 2 points · Posted at 19:31:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
At work we label the boxes of chips so we know which box is which brand/flavor, and one time I got to work after the truck dropped off the shipment and one of my coworkers wrote "halapeeno".
londyn7898 · 2 points · Posted at 19:36:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Good enough
DrunkenGolfer · 2 points · Posted at 20:36:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Don't forget the "h" either.
nickjaa · 2 points · Posted at 21:08:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
fuck you dude. i'm speaking English here. I'm not saying Les MiseCHables either, and I speak fluent French.
_domdomdom_ · 2 points · Posted at 00:16:32 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Hall of peen, yo
catjuggler · 2 points · Posted at 18:08:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
do people say hala pee oh?
londyn7898 · 1 points · Posted at 18:35:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Majority of the people i know do
catjuggler · 3 points · Posted at 19:12:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That must be regional- i've never heard it. ha la peen yo is probably the most common I've heard, or ha la pain yo
Uvile · 1 points · Posted at 19:29:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
hol-la-pay-no
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:29:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Im already struggling with the j/h sound.
thewayisnarrows · 18 points · Posted at 17:08:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How a fucking 4 way stop works.
IminPeru · 1 points · Posted at 19:47:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
who goes first? is it first come first drive?
ice_cream_sandwiches · 4 points · Posted at 20:03:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Whoever arrived at the stop first, or the person on your right.
iwouldrun500miles · 3 points · Posted at 20:08:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
THIS is the part a lot of people don't seem to understand! If you get there at the same time, you yield to the person on your right. If you are the person on the right, go!
thewayisnarrows · 1 points · Posted at 20:23:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Correcto!
PM_ME_BOOBS_PLSS · 220 points · Posted at 15:02:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just how amazing boobs are. How ever amazing you think they are, triple that.
[deleted] · 32 points · Posted at 16:04:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
More than 21?!
TedTheViking · 35 points · Posted at 16:29:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
63 to be exact.
Zr40 · 4 points · Posted at 17:09:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Clearly they are as amazing as 189.
DarkLazer215 · 8 points · Posted at 17:58:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
567 😫💦
giver_of_the_snark · 3 points · Posted at 18:14:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I believe their power level is over 9000
Elixer_23 · 3 points · Posted at 18:47:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You would be wrong. Their power level is at least over 27000.
ThePerpetualGamer · 1 points · Posted at 19:45:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Pretty sure it's AT THE BARE MINIMUM 81000.
Ask_Why_I_Am_Mad · 3 points · Posted at 17:31:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sorry bud, try 189.
are2deetwo · 3 points · Posted at 18:59:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
7/10 only the best
[deleted] · 5 points · Posted at 19:28:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I admire your monstrous capacity to literally only comment about boobs. Would you like to talk about boobs for a Youtube show?
PM_ME_BOOBS_PLSS · 1 points · Posted at 23:27:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I worry a YouTube show would censor the main component of what makes a show about boobs great. Boobs.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 05:49:17 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well, sadly I can't say you're wrong
JoeNapoli97 · 30 points · Posted at 15:16:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Username checks out.
CaptainMoonman · 8 points · Posted at 17:28:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Is it recursive? Should I continue to triple each output?
Level_32_Mage · 10 points · Posted at 18:19:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's exponential.
alksjdhglaksjdh2 · 6 points · Posted at 18:00:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Holy fuck look at this guy's profile! 8/10 comments are about boobs! I respect that
PM_ME_BOOBS_PLSS · 1 points · Posted at 23:26:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Only 8/10? I'm fucking up.
BOOBS
BOOBS
BOOBS
BOOBS
mugmugthebarbarian · 2 points · Posted at 17:48:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Barney?
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:58:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I always thought they were only 23 amazing...
legaladult · 0 points · Posted at 19:31:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Damn, you're right.
beerbeardsbears · -3 points · Posted at 17:54:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Triple nothing is still nothing
SlipperyFrob · 2 points · Posted at 20:00:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I thought they were slightly negative, but then I got to like -1060 before deciding OP was full of shit.
actiondog · 86 points · Posted at 14:57:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
90% of people don't understand how percentages work, while the other 20% do
obligarchy1 · 19 points · Posted at 17:42:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah but what about 10% of 90% of people
jackthelad07 · 3 points · Posted at 18:47:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
theyre the same as the 90% of the 10%
JetPackHolley · 1 points · Posted at 19:10:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Trust me I'm a math teacher
thebeastfrombelow · 1 points · Posted at 20:19:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ok but not 90% of 10%
R_Lupin · 2 points · Posted at 17:32:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well done sir
inkyblinkypinkysue · 1 points · Posted at 17:37:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Forfty percent of people know that.
ms4720 · 28 points · Posted at 14:12:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Credit card debt
[deleted] · -6 points · Posted at 15:13:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Credit card debt is simple. Do not look at the total due unless you have a surplus of capital. Look at the minimum payment and ask yourself, how much extra can I afford to spend? IF the answer to that question is "quite a bit" then you simply spend what you are comfortable spending on the credit card.
If not, then pay the minimum to keep the account current until you can afford to pay extra.
The goal is to get the number down to a point where you can pay it off with your tax refund. (For middle class people that is.)
dubman42 · 21 points · Posted at 16:50:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just about every point you made is bad financial advice.
Hi_Im_Saxby · 10 points · Posted at 15:35:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'll make credit card debt even more simple. Don't spend more money than you have and you won't have credit card debt.
The goal is not have any credit card debt because you're not a total idiot and can afford to pay off your credit card in full every month by not spending more than you have.
etihw_retsim · 5 points · Posted at 16:17:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Also, you should aim to have as small a tax rebate as possible. (Just make sure you don't owe enough to have a penalty.) Having a large rebate just means you gave the government an interest-free loan. Waiting to pay off an interest-bearing loan with money that you let the government hold onto for free is doubly reckless.
Hi_Im_Saxby · 0 points · Posted at 16:27:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not entirely true. You pay your taxes regardless. If you don't you're committing tax evasion which is a felony. But you can write off expenses and other things as tax breaks, which increase your tax return compared to if you don't. So if anything, you want a large tax return due to expenses you're writing off.
etihw_retsim · 2 points · Posted at 16:34:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I never said don't pay your taxes. It's not tax evasion unless you don't pay money you owe. It's possible to estimate how much you will earn, how much you can write off, and adjust your withholding and/or estimated taxes appropriately. It's perfectly legal as long as you end up paying as much as you owe.
Hi_Im_Saxby · 1 points · Posted at 16:42:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Like when I get paid I can adjust how much of my taxes I pay? That's something I can do compared to them just ripping out a chunk of each paycheck for taxes? Have I been living in the dark?
etihw_retsim · 2 points · Posted at 16:48:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Use the worksheet when filling out your W-4. It will guide you through how many allowances you can claim based on your expected deductions. (Each allowance you claim will result in less money being withheld.) It seems a lot of people don't bother using the worksheets and just claim allowances for themselves and their dependents.
blakeh95 · 3 points · Posted at 15:32:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think it was more about "don't get into CC debt in the first place". Credit cards are a terrible source of financing in most cases, unless you have a special intro APR. I would argue that if you have CC debt, you will never have surplus capital until it is paid off, because any extra spending that you think you can afford will cost you several times over in interest.
LibertyTerp · 2 points · Posted at 15:30:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I disagree. Do not ever get into any credit card debt unless you have no reasonable alternative. If you have to eat nothing but rice and beans for a week, do it. If you have to borrow from family, do it.
Credit card debt is just stealing for your future self. It is almost never a good decision.
A mortgage can be a good decision, as long as you don't go anywhere near the max loan that the bank is willing to give you. That's the point where the bank just barely thinks you can make the payments.
wolfgirlnaya · 2 points · Posted at 19:40:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is... almost correct.
Do NOT borrow from family or friends. That's how you end up losing loved ones, especially if you can't get your shit together.
You can use credit cards, but make sure you keep a close eye on your income and expenses and don't spend more than you can pay off.
It's okay to borrow towards the max if you are confident that you can pay it back on your current income. My husband and I got the max mortgage that we could get, but we knew for a fact that we could handle the expense, especially since it was cheaper per month than renting, which the loan providers did not take into account.
But yes, if you can keep yourself out of CC debt by eating cheap food and going without comforts, do so. If you get into debt because you can't afford your standard of living, then you're not going to get out of debt until you change either your standards or income.
ms4720 · 1 points · Posted at 15:46:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No the goal is to pay it in full every month, you are throwing away about 20% in interest on that debt a year.
[deleted] · -7 points · Posted at 17:28:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You gain more credit when you pay interest. Also if you break it up into smaller chunks, you end up not throwing yourself into the danger zone, financially. If you have to open a credit line of 1k-2k, it is better for your credit to pay if off over the course of 6-8 months. If you pay if off in 3, it helps your credit yes, but not nearly as much as paying the higher interest fees do.
tophermeyer · 1 points · Posted at 15:51:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That sounds like terrible advice. Credit card debt is incredibly expensive to carry. That kind if thinking just obligates people to a lifetime of debt payments that will cripple their total lifetime worth.
I will agree that credit card debt is simple. Don't do it. Keep a card for your emergencies, sure. It's nice to have access to an emergency credit line. Otherwise do everything you can to avoid it. Unsecured credit cards should be the absolute last debt to take on, and the first debt to pay off.
[deleted] · -1 points · Posted at 17:26:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
HA. So you think that paying in excess a month and putting yourself in the danger zone, financially, is a good idea. My comment is for people already in credit card debt. Using this method I have been able to successfully pay off my credit cards several times.
My primary credit card has had its credit limit steadily increased to the point where it is at a scary limit that I NEVER want to hit.
This also has built up my credit in a large way. I can walk into a car dealership, put no money down and walk out with a reasonably priced car.
wolfgirlnaya · 3 points · Posted at 19:34:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
...I honestly can't tell if you're being serious.
People with credit card debt should pay off their credit cards ASAP. Ideally, they would never get into credit card debt, but if they happen into it, they should prioritize paying it off.
I have also paid off my credit cards several times. Because I pay them off every month. Because I don't spend beyond what I can afford to pay off. My credit cards are for security, rewards, and emergencies. My credit lines add up to about $15k, but I'd never even consider coming close to maxing any of them out on anything but a necessary emergency (e.g. medical treatment for urgent issue).
I could also walk into a car dealership and get myself a reasonably priced car. However, I wouldn't do that. I can't afford it. I'd get a cheap used car and fix it up myself if it needs it, because I'd rather do some work myself than be in more debt. THAT is how you handle credit.
PM_PICS_OF_ME_NAKED · 1 points · Posted at 18:48:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's a great way to lose money to interest charges.
[deleted] · -1 points · Posted at 18:57:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Thats the problem with credit. If you do not pay interest charges, you do not build up much credit. Oh sure paying off your credit card each month will build it up, but keeping a rolling balance that you pay off at the end of the year will send your credit higher than you would doing it the other way.
PM_PICS_OF_ME_NAKED · 1 points · Posted at 20:51:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You should not own any credit cards, you don't get how this works, regardless of what you think.
Why not ask about it rather than trying to pass off bad information? r/personalfinance has info in their sidebar plus a bunch of posts if you search through about how you are wasting your money. You should never pay interest on your credit card, it isn't helping you and only wastes your money.
starfirex · 1 points · Posted at 22:16:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
NO.
Credit cards have the highest level of interest available. Always pay down your credit immediately if at all possible. If you can't afford to pay it off immediately, do what you can to reduce your spending until you can.
MoistPocketChange · 18 points · Posted at 15:02:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Taxes.
I'm an accountant/auditor and even most of us aren't 100% on tax stuff. But then I'll do volunteer taxes for lower income people (I believe it's free for anyone with annual household income below 63k) and legitimately all of them have no idea about any of it.
IsaacTamell · 1 points · Posted at 18:19:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Tell me more about how you'll do my taxes for free. Does this take into account average income levels for the local area/state or is it nationwide? Or is it only available locally around you?
MoistPocketChange · 1 points · Posted at 18:40:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I believe it's a national association that does. Volunteer income tax association. VITA. People bring in their w2s and we enter their info into a program and figure out the best way for them to file to get the most back on their taxes while still being accurate. All they need to bring in is their SS card and their w2s and we do the rest.
IsaacTamell · 0 points · Posted at 18:56:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Hmm... unfortunately for me, there are no nearby locations. Still, that's a pretty cool program when you consider H&R Block wants something like $150-$200 to process a w2.
DecorationOnly · 1 points · Posted at 20:07:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You should take some time and learn to do them yourself. A majority of people do not have complicated taxes.
I've been fortunate enough that my dad forced me to do my own taxes since I started making enough to file. Since then, my taxes have become much more complicated, but since I was always doing them, it was just adding one or two new things/year. Now I pay someone to do them, but still review them for accuracy and/or learning anything new.
iwouldrun500miles · 1 points · Posted at 20:40:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Stupid question time, one that I've never really thought to ask until right now: if the federal government witholds, say, $500 from my paychecks in 2017, do I get every dime of that back when I file my taxes in 2018?
MoistPocketChange · 2 points · Posted at 20:58:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not exactly. So one misconception a lot of people have (and I'm not saying this is exactly yours, but will help illustrate it) is that your tax refund is part of what the rightful taxes you paid to the government, and that it's a good thing to get a big refund. What your tax refund is essentially, is a refund of overpaid taxes. So the larger your refund, the more you overpaid on what you really owed. Now most people are shit with money, so that large surplus is an awesome influx of money, but strictly economically speaking, with time value of money, a penny today is worth more than a penny tomorrow. So if you paid 500 in taxes last year. That doesn't mean you'll get 500 in a refund. But let's say you rightfully owe 500 last year, but due to missclassification, mistakenly wrong filing by your employer, or you, or whatever, you actually paid 750. You'd get approximately a 250 refund this year.
Edit: and to add, it can go the other way too. If you wrongly file for whatever reason and end up paying less than what you should have, you could owe money come 'refund' time. I was surprised to find a lot of people were surprised or shocked (but mostly enraged) that that was a thing when I have to tell them they owe fuckin 2 grand or something when they thought they d be getting money.
Does that help?
_bush · 0 points · Posted at 17:26:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Taxation is theft though, isn't it?
MoistPocketChange · 2 points · Posted at 18:42:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Do you mean like your income tax refund is theft because it technically means you overpaid taxes all year?
If so, the government d idnt take money from you without asking, i.e theft. You or your employer enter the wrong Info somewhere, or classified wrong so you got taxed more than you should have. So it's a mistake more than theft. Incredibly frequent though because... 90% of people don't know how taxes work lol
_bush · 0 points · Posted at 19:38:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Nah I mean like the state is a criminal organization.
But thanks for explaining anyway. :3
jonnykings · 17 points · Posted at 16:12:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That in bad weather turning your lights on isn't so you can see better it's so others can see you better
thegarlicbreadisgone · 0 points · Posted at 20:10:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oh. Thanks for this tiny fragment of enlightenment, u/jonnykings
Tumblrhoe · 16 points · Posted at 17:22:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Science isn't always right, and it's a very dangerous idea to give science the ultimate say in an issue. The application of new scientific knowledge is always exciting, and can lead to us making some truly awful mistakes (our understanding of genetics eventually led to the eugenics movement, and America fully participated. We even had "better baby" competitions, many people were deemed stupid enough to be forcibly sterilized).
Source: I do science, conservation science, and am really nervous at how eager the public is to just eradicate mosquito's using gene drives we release into the wild.
BenjiDread · 2 points · Posted at 18:24:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I understand your concern, on the other hand, mosquitoes cause more human deaths than any other animal. About 1 million people die each year from mosquito borne diseases.
I don't know if eradicating them is a good idea since lots of other animals eat them. But the idea of being free of mosquitoes is a tough one to let go.
Tumblrhoe · 3 points · Posted at 19:46:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oh, I totally get it! I myself am very mixed about it, because I wholly understand that they are the number one killer of humans through disease transfer. I just can't help but have this very itchy feeling in the back of my head like, "there's gonna be some documentary in 50 years lamenting how stupid we were to think we could just disrupt the natural world in such a way".
All in all I'm just nervous. The science indicates we should be ok, but I can't help but feel like we're missing something.
thegarlicbreadisgone · 0 points · Posted at 20:14:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I applaud your correct pluralization. No apostrophe, u/Tumblrhoe
Tumblrhoe · 2 points · Posted at 20:45:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Whoops. I actually debated which way it went for a minute, but ultimately realized it didn't matter in the grand scheme of casually writing on an internet board to anonymous people who I will never meet in my entire life.
thegarlicbreadisgone · 1 points · Posted at 22:03:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Very wise. Aren't there more important things to worry about? Carry on, Internet stranger!
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:48:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I agree, I really dislike when people say "the science is settled" when it comes to things like vaccines. Not all vaccines are equal, some are for people and some for animals, some have come and gone from the market, to make a blanket statement that the "science is settled" is a mere attempt to halt discussion.
Tumblrhoe · 2 points · Posted at 20:01:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think this is where it's important to delineate between refusing to acknowledge scientific consensus, and questioning the science to ensure all the facts are known. There is nothing inherently wrong with questioning the science to learn more about it. There is a problem with questioning the science, and denying the science with no empirical reason as to why.
For example, gene drives make me nervous as someone who does conservation. Saying that though, I lack much empirical evidence to the contrary, and therefore must roll with it until proven otherwise. I can call for more research, more evidence, and small scale application, but I can't say "We can't do this, because I'm nervous". At a certain point I need to go with the science, because that's all I have.
Vaccines are in this camp where it has been pretty thoroughly vetted, and we have many organizations devoted to ensuring they are safe. Can we question new vaccines, and ask to see the receipts of the research? Absolutely. Can we still refuse to accept them after doing so, and having no evidence of our own? You can, but it means you're doing so based off of gut instinct more than rational thought.
But yeah, no scientists worth their salt should ever say something is 100% certain. We simply can't know something as always being true. The best we can do is get to a point where we have not been proven otherwise, and thus should expect that this is the way it will likely be every time, and act accordingly.
DecorationOnly · 2 points · Posted at 20:03:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The anti-science movement has spawned an equally troublesome "science can never be wrong" movement. I have a few friends that if a scientific paper is published on it, they consider it absolute and immutable proof. Or, conversely, if something does not have a scientific paper on it, it's undeniably false.
It never ceases to amaze me how people can put absolute faith in science when science is constantly proving itself wrong/incomplete (which is by design - build, tear down, revise, build stronger). We understand less than 1% of the universe, to put absolute, unquestioning faith in that is absurd.
Tumblrhoe · 2 points · Posted at 20:07:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Here's what I said to another commenter in the same vein as this thought:
I think this is where it's important to delineate between refusing to acknowledge scientific consensus, and questioning the science to ensure all the facts are known. There is nothing inherently wrong with questioning the science to learn more about it. There is a problem with questioning the science, and denying the science with no empirical reason as to why. For example, gene drives make me nervous as someone who does conservation. Saying that though, I lack much empirical evidence to the contrary, and therefore must roll with it until proven otherwise. I can call for more research, more evidence, and small scale application, but I can't say "We can't do this, because I'm nervous". At a certain point I need to go with the science, because that's all I have. Vaccines are in this camp where it has been pretty thoroughly vetted, and we have many organizations devoted to ensuring they are safe. Can we question new vaccines, and ask to see the receipts of the research? Absolutely. Can we still refuse to accept them after doing so, and having no evidence of our own? You can, but it means you're doing so based off of gut instinct more than rational thought. But yeah, no scientists worth their salt should ever say something is 100% certain. We simply can't know something as always being true. The best we can do is get to a point where we have not been proven otherwise, and thus should expect that this is the way it will likely be every time, and act accordingly.
So yeah, find a middle ground. Question the hell out of science, but don't refuse to accept it for no good reason.
DecorationOnly · 1 points · Posted at 20:48:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Even when something has been tested as true over and over, it's important not to accept it as absolute truth, just truth as we know it. You must always be open to the idea that something may not be exactly right.
My main annoyance is that I know someone that when a bleeding edge paper will come out on something like quantum physics, and he reads this article (NOT the study, because he doesn't understand it) and proclaims it as absolute truth. He's got a massive inferiority complex when it comes to intelligence, so he defends his position louder and louder until you just give up because it isn't worth it. Sadly, because of this person, I see a lot of similar people on social media with the same attitude.
Being someone who has done a lot of research during my university years, it really annoys the shit out of me. They never question methods or think "hey, where could this be flawed." Nope, it's all absolute, unquestionable truth now.
sneeden · 3 points · Posted at 19:43:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The public wanting to misuse a tool doesn't make science wrong. It makes the application of a tool wrong.
Tumblrhoe · 2 points · Posted at 19:50:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No, it doesn't make science wrong, but it does mean we can't just take science at face value. I've seen a number of people over the years on reddit get crazy upvotes when they say that politicians should just accept what scientists say, and implement what they tell them. I'm not saying that politicians shouldn't listen to science more, but I think people fail to recognize that science can make mistakes too. Science has told us plenty of times before that something was a certain way, and now we look back on it and shudder. There's no easy way to really go about that (we can't just ignore scientific consensus because it could be wrong), but we also can't become complacent to trusting science on every aspect of our lives.
ballsdeepinasquealer · -1 points · Posted at 19:41:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Science also gave us the atomic bomb. Look where that leaves us...
IrateSteelix · 33 points · Posted at 15:58:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Parents not understanding that you can't pause an online game. :v
jbaird · 3 points · Posted at 18:30:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
just pause it!
[deleted] · 52 points · Posted at 14:55:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
[deleted] · 46 points · Posted at 15:09:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
GoldenPants2269 · 7 points · Posted at 17:30:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I believe Under Pressure was a collaboration between the 80s rock legends Queen and David Bowie, but nice try!!
bucky763 · 1 points · Posted at 16:48:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
True! What's your top 3 fav Logic tracks?
beerbeardsbears · 4 points · Posted at 17:56:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I like his new track he dropped on Rick and Morty last night.
Reynk · 1 points · Posted at 23:03:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoDh_gHDvkk
yolochengbeast · 19 points · Posted at 15:10:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
that he is B I R A C I A L?
yottalogical · 2 points · Posted at 15:00:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Some people don’t know the difference between logic and reasoning.
not-quite-a-nerd · 1 points · Posted at 16:16:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's the most worrying problem in the world right now
FrozenSenchi · 1 points · Posted at 18:36:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How does one use logic?
shamu762655 · 44 points · Posted at 15:46:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Evolution. No, we weren't monkeys which one day changed to modern humans.
elfonite · -2 points · Posted at 18:06:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Evidence?
shamu762655 · 2 points · Posted at 20:41:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Evidence for what? Evolution in general or that we didn't evolve directly from monkeys or even our primate cousins?
elfonite · 1 points · Posted at 14:29:47 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
evidence that we didn't evolve from monkeys. here's a relevant article
shamu762655 · 1 points · Posted at 15:20:33 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think you're completely misunderstanding my point here. We share common ancestors with the other great apes and some monkeys. We have all taken different evolutionary paths. For example, we diverged from our closest relative the chimpanzee about 7 million years ago.
My point was that people that don't understood evolution often say, "So we were monkeys and then we just changed to humans one day? Nah, don't believe it". This is a complete misunderstanding of how evolution works.
You're either misunderstanding my point or quibbling over semantics.
elfonite · 1 points · Posted at 08:45:21 on August 19, 2017 · (Permalink)
I've understood your point and I concur with what you explained ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ been reading Sapiens lately where I discovered what you just explained and it makes a lot of sense.
shamu762655 · 2 points · Posted at 10:18:59 on August 19, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sapiens is a fantastic book, hope you're enjoying it!
elfonite · 1 points · Posted at 11:44:56 on August 19, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm enjoying it thoroughly! it's indeed a great book! please pm me book recommendations if you have any.
seansand · -4 points · Posted at 18:10:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Don't know if I can agree with you there. Our long-ago ancestors were not the same as modern monkeys, certainly. But they were probably sufficiently monkey-like to make the difference pretty academic.
pleasedothenerdful · 10 points · Posted at 18:23:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Apes ≠ monkeys.
NotLawrence · 6 points · Posted at 14:59:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Google sells ad space, not personal identifiable data.
Larstheelephant · 7 points · Posted at 18:53:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just because you get distracted, it doesn't mean you have ADHD
Just because you like things a certain way, doesn't mean you're OCD
Just because you are socially awkward and are passionate about a single thing, does not mean you have Asperger's
You may be unintentionally trivializing legitimate struggles for people who are actually afflicted with these.
Barley12 · 7 points · Posted at 19:00:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Surely not everybody was kung-fu-fighting
Gilandb · 14 points · Posted at 17:37:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That freedom of speech only means the GOVERNMENT won't do anything against you. It doesn't mean you can spout your nonsense whenever and where ever you like with no consequences. Everyone (but the government) is free to ridicule you to no end.
TMoney67 · 1 points · Posted at 17:48:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This.
poo-boys-united · 30 points · Posted at 14:26:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Being offended does not make you right.
bluemavis · 5 points · Posted at 18:58:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
.....nor does it create an obligation to the world to adjust itself accordingly.
huuaaang · 34 points · Posted at 16:09:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"Free Speech" isn't something you're guaranteed in every social context. It only applies to government and law. Just because you can legally say something doesn't mean every individual has to shut up about it and give you a platform to say your stupid shit. Your rights are not violated because some people on reddit downvote your hateful nonsense into oblivion.
Royal_Hofner · 2 points · Posted at 18:13:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Exactly. People seem to forget that free speech and expression goes both ways. As much as someone has the right to say whatever they want w/o legal repercussion, we have the right to respond to it in whatever way we want as well (so long as it does not harm ofc). Booing, downvoting, ridiculing, dismissing, turning our back and not listening in response to something we don't like are all also forms of free speech/expression, that we have a right to. You can't express something in the marketplace of ideas, and then get salty that people have a certain response to you so you can cry censorship and oppression, that's their right as well.
uniquecannon · 2 points · Posted at 18:18:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The problem is what's being considered "hateful speech". Calling all Muslims terrorist can be construed as hate speech, but despite what Reddit believes, being for lower taxes, proper border security, and expanded gun rights is not hate speech. Being a capitalist is not hate speech. And being a straight white male is not hate speech. Yet it's considered hate speech by way too many millennials.
huuaaang · 5 points · Posted at 18:24:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No it's not. You're being ridiculous. Nobody is going to take you seriously when you claim that being a straight white male is "hate speech."
uniquecannon · 1 points · Posted at 18:36:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Hillary's whole platform was railing against working class white men. Calling them "deplorable".
fraulien_buzz_kill · 4 points · Posted at 19:35:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
She literally defined basket of deplorables to mean "racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic" but if that is the definition of white male to you that might be a bit more of a "you" problem.
huuaaang · 1 points · Posted at 18:54:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What the fuck are you talking about? And what does that have to do with straight while males being "hate speech?"I don't even know what that means!
Boatsmhoes · 125 points · Posted at 16:04:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's possible to have two completely different opinions that are just as correct.
shifty_coder · 185 points · Posted at 16:21:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
*valid
If they're differing opinions, they can't both be "correct". Use of the word "correct" implies that that they're both factual. Don't mix facts and opinions.
mundozeo · 101 points · Posted at 16:48:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Both of you seem to be right.
sodium123 · 3 points · Posted at 17:47:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
*valid
no_ragrats · 5 points · Posted at 17:40:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Slliiddeeee to the left...
TheShadowKick · 2 points · Posted at 23:41:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I used to be a conservative but my life for the last fifteen years has been one long slide to the left.
thomasbomb45 · 1 points · Posted at 17:56:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No, the first person is wrong. If it's an opinion, it can't be correct.
mundozeo · 1 points · Posted at 18:15:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It is my opinion you are correct.
EmeralSword · 1 points · Posted at 18:25:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Damnation man we JUST went over this!
thomasbomb45 · 1 points · Posted at 20:20:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Twitch
Okay, you win
Fisguard · 1 points · Posted at 18:21:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think that was a joke.
dagunner · 1 points · Posted at 17:40:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well, if you believe the sky is blue, and I believe the grass is green, we both have completely different opinions, and they're both correct. So really the statement above is more or less a tautology (always true) as completely different statements are unrelated and hence have no reason they can't be simultaneously true.
So, what you probably really meant was that two contradictory opinions can be equally valid.
shifty_coder · 1 points · Posted at 18:01:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Those aren't beliefs. Those are verifiable facts.
CourierOfTheWastes · 1 points · Posted at 18:28:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SoundValidTrue
allmhuran · 1 points · Posted at 18:36:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Validity is a property of an argument, but an opinion is normally just a proposition. So the concept of validity doesn't apply.
Rocktopod · 1 points · Posted at 18:14:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It depends on the opinion. An opinion such as "pizza is better than hamburgers" has no basis in fact. All such matters of preference are equally true.
Boatsmhoes · 0 points · Posted at 17:16:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well like, let's let immigrants in vs not. Both are correct
wchess · 8 points · Posted at 17:36:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What would an incorrect opinion (not fact) look like?
Edit: highlighted the point shifty_coder is making
Stanandor · 8 points · Posted at 17:39:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"Why don't we have all our immigrants be born INSIDE the country instead?"
wchess · 2 points · Posted at 17:52:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
thnx
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 17:04:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
shifty_coder · 1 points · Posted at 17:23:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There's no such thing.
jivow · 0 points · Posted at 18:11:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
An opinion is something that isn't fact-based, it still may be correct or incorrect when you take the available facts/evidence into an account.
E.g. a person may think that educating people will lead to less crime - it they don't have any data to back it up it's just a belief - an opinion. But we do have such data and we do know that this opinion is correct while the opinion "educating minorities won't lower the crime-rates" is incorrect.
Validity of statement is entirely different thing.
Horricule · 12 points · Posted at 17:30:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I see you fall into the 90% that believes that opinions can be objectively true or false. If it can be objectively true or false, then it is not an opinion.
allmhuran · 3 points · Posted at 18:33:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That depends on what you mean by "completely different".
IF you mean "proposition A and proposition B are in direct logical contradiction with each other", then no, they can't both be equally correct, since to say that they are in contradiction is precisely to say that both cannot simultaneously be true, one or both must be false.
But it's possible to have two propositions that are different but are not in direct contradiction with each other. This is trivially the case if the propositions have no relation to each other, but it can also be true even if they do. As a silly example, I propose that 4 is reached by adding 1 to 3, and you propose that 4 is reached by adding 2 to itself. The propositions are clearly related to the same subject, and are clearly different, but both are true.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:53:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you're inside a chronosynclastic infundibulum, yeah.
Outside of one, not so much.
IndoorCatSyndrome · 1 points · Posted at 18:22:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Reminds me of this.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:43:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You can't have two opinions that contradict each other though.
quinson93 · 1 points · Posted at 19:17:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Love this one. I must have heard this from somewhere else before, because I've been using it for years now.
Two people give two seemingly opposing ideas as to the cause of something, and both being on the right track. I think it might have been SNAFU oddly enough.
aarpcard · 1 points · Posted at 20:22:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Nope. They both may have valid logic, but one of them is based on incorrect facts.
Boatsmhoes · 1 points · Posted at 21:08:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Democratic vs republican, both have good views sprinkled in on both sides. Both have views that can be correct but people disagree with.
aarpcard · 1 points · Posted at 21:11:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If they have opposing views, at least one of them will be wrong. More frequently both views are incorrect.
BradC · 36 points · Posted at 14:17:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Percentages. The other 15% of people are great at them.
PM_ME_YOR_PANTIES · 3 points · Posted at 14:55:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
5/4 of people have a problem with fractions.
AlwaysunnyNsocal · 1 points · Posted at 14:58:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What about tall mother fuckers?
GirlsWithCollars · 1 points · Posted at 15:16:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm 1/6
zqpmx · 1 points · Posted at 15:53:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
4/5?
philsown · 1 points · Posted at 16:59:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I always like to give 125%
[deleted] · 39 points · Posted at 14:59:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
portingil · 12 points · Posted at 16:35:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But it sure does when it's done by someone from a group that you hate!
jbaird · 6 points · Posted at 18:31:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
wait.. so you think Nazis that run people down with cars are giving Nazis that aren't a bad name? :D
Mahruta · 2 points · Posted at 20:01:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think he implies that Nazis that run people over with cars are giving bad names to the right wing
grumpyold · 5 points · Posted at 16:08:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If I could get people to understand two fallacies, it would be the fallacy of division and the fallacy of composition.
[deleted] · 6 points · Posted at 16:20:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And the No True Scotsman fallacy. People use it to protect group identity all the time.
grumpyold · 2 points · Posted at 17:02:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's wrong to say no true Scotsman, but I also think that people confuse group identity with essential-ism. While a certain characteristic may be associated with a group, it is not essential to being a part of that group. For instance, you could say that many CPAs are boring, but being boring is not essential to being a CPA.
The740 · 4 points · Posted at 17:49:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"Although golf was originally restricted to wealthy, overweight Protestants, today it's open to anybody who owns hideous clothing."
inconspicuousss · 2 points · Posted at 21:23:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
At which proportion does it start to apply to the group though, 51%? 75%? 99%?
CrossFox42 · 7 points · Posted at 17:46:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's true. To an extent. Of course not everyone involved in Charlottesville was willing to cause harm to other people, but a good majority of them hold ideas that are harmful. A lot of people their were pro Nazi, pro segregation, and just flat out racist. Some were there thinking they were just supporting the idea of "southern heritage". But the problem comes about when you have people that see literal Nazis at their rally and just brush it off.
"Well I'm certainly not a Nazi. That guy isn't with me." But then do nothing while that person shouts their hate filled rhetoric right next to you. At a certain point a individual needs to look at what's going on around them to make a decision and take responsibility.
Do you continue to let hate mongers mingle with you because they share a few ideas with you? Or do you take a stand against them, and say "What you're doing is not okay." Just as all Trump supporters are not extremeist racists, not all liberals are extreme socialists. But, when you have members of specific hate groups trying to say "come on guys, we're not all bad." That is fundamentally flawed. I feel 100% certain that anyone who identifies as a Nazi, Facist, White Supremist, or White Nationalist is not a good person in any regard.
FireFox9 · 1 points · Posted at 20:46:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And here I thought all people with a car were evil...
But it's true though, if a criminal has a different religion or origin than most people its always mentioned in the news, which makes some people connect the crimes to the religion/origin. People tend to forget that all the other crimes where this is not mentioned are committed by natives, same color and religion as most people in their country.
RusselNash · 0 points · Posted at 17:45:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Pretty sure when they're running down people with a car because their political ideology is to kill all non-white people that they're being representative of the entire group in that scenario.
TheShadowKick · 1 points · Posted at 23:44:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not all white supremicists have an ideology of genocide.
RusselNash · 2 points · Posted at 17:07:47 on August 18, 2017 · (Permalink)
Good point. Some are into enslavement. Fuck every single white supremacist.
throwaway17oz · 1 points · Posted at 18:42:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is what Reddit users actually believe
Gibslayer · 3 points · Posted at 19:08:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Said by a Reddit user... I mean we get what you're saying but specifics.
RusselNash · 1 points · Posted at 17:06:54 on August 18, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes, I believe all Nazis are evil scum. You got me pegged.
VerdeCaelum · 5 points · Posted at 15:55:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That the world is bigger than the extent to which your senses can perceive, and that the small Earth alone is already too big and complex for one man to comprehend and truly understand. Not knowing this seems to be the main cause behind every intellectually stubborn and selfless attitude that exists.
sbPhysicalGraffiti · 6 points · Posted at 17:08:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How a zipper merge works
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:49:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
They had to get rid of most of the zipper merge lanes in my city because too many people were causing accidents trying to race up the ending lane to get ahead of as many cars as possible. And not just people in sports cars either, fucking UPS, garbage trucks, and school busses all caused massive pileups.
sbPhysicalGraffiti · 2 points · Posted at 20:08:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yup, I believe it.
FumbledWords · 7 points · Posted at 18:26:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That you should wait for people to exit the elevator before you get on
autumnx · 6 points · Posted at 18:27:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I can't "just stop worrying". My anxiety disorder can't be switched off. Great idea, though.
AnUnnamedSettler · 6 points · Posted at 19:05:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What depression is like.
darkjedidave · 11 points · Posted at 17:56:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The left lane is for passing. If I'm going 15mph over the speed limit, that's my issue. Move over.
Kriotus · 1 points · Posted at 18:34:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
YES, police are actually beginning to enforce passing lane laws in certain states in the US.
spazmatazffs · 23 points · Posted at 15:00:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Irony.
HolderofKittens · 3 points · Posted at 17:14:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This should have a lot more upvotes.
HorsemanOfWar · 3 points · Posted at 18:09:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Isn't that ironic?
ThePerpetualGamer · 1 points · Posted at 19:48:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's like raaaaaaiiiiin
elevatorbeat · 2 points · Posted at 20:15:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Irony is doing something to avoid an outcome but you end up causing that outcome all the same.
An example: you quit smoking to prolong your life but then a shooter comes into your work and only those on smoke breaks survive.
Another example: You remotely lock your car for added security, but the chirping draws the attention of a thief who then smashes your window.
Goffers12 · 22 points · Posted at 15:05:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That when I say "sorry" in reference to a bad thing thats happened to them, they don't need to say "its not your fault, why are you apologising?".
You'd think people would have understood basic social skills by now but clearly not.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:22:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Goffers12 · 1 points · Posted at 18:36:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm talking about loss, not something you've done to them.
CoolTrainerBrian · 1 points · Posted at 20:23:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's why my go-to response after that is "empathy, not apology"
TheShadowKick · 1 points · Posted at 23:45:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
We need a separate word to express sympathetic sorry instead of apologetic sorry.
Cranky_Kong · -6 points · Posted at 15:34:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The word sorry is an admission of fault.
If you want to express compassion and empathy for someone who is experienced something unpleasant maybe you should increase your own social skills and find a better way to say it.
Goffers12 · 9 points · Posted at 15:39:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Most people know that in the context of something unpleasant, people say "sorry", i don't think thats uncommon at all. Yes you could say "i'm sorry to hear that" or "sorry for your loss" but i've heard people say the same thing in response to that, its all the same.
Cranky_Kong · -6 points · Posted at 15:44:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Making assumptions about what other people know is a great way to be a social failure.
It's a cop-out and a shortcut that prevents us from emotionally connecting. I've never heard that word used where one more tailored would not have worked better.
It's just the majority of people are linguistically lazy and common usage defines the language.
Goffers12 · 6 points · Posted at 15:45:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What would you say then?
Cranky_Kong · 2 points · Posted at 15:57:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Depends on the circumstances if you're consoling someone for a lost loved one I would say: they will be missed and left the world a better place than they came into.
If someone has been injured in the distant past, instead of saying sorry it happened, compliment them on their coping.
If the hurt is more recent ask them if there's anything you can do to help.
If someone is overcome with the unfairness of the world then show your friendship with them by helping make it a little more just. Even a small effort will go much further than telling someone sorry.
Goffers12 · 6 points · Posted at 16:01:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think i'll just stick with sorry, its not just defined as an admission of guilt, its a feeling of sympathy. So in the context of someone's loss, unless you murdered the person, I think its logical that someone saying sorry means that you are sympathetic, rather than admitting fault.
Cranky_Kong · -3 points · Posted at 16:10:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
then you have no right to complain when people react to it as if it was an admission of guilt.
Goffers12 · 5 points · Posted at 16:13:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Except why would me saying sorry about their loss be an admission of guilt?
Cranky_Kong · 2 points · Posted at 16:19:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
While the actual root means to be filled with sorrow, which is neutral, common English usage has its most frequent examples as apologies.
An apology is unnecessary if you are not culpable for the circumstances.
Nearly every parent hammers into their kids brain to go up and say I'm sorry to someone after committing offense, cementing the phrase as an admission of guilt.
Again it's common usage that defines the language. When you are sympathizing with someone's loss, in any case a trite phrase is hardly ever appreciated.
And I can't think of a more trite phrase than 'I'm sorry'
Goffers12 · 2 points · Posted at 16:23:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I mean, saying sorry as an expression of sympathy/condolences is common too, words can have multiple meanings, its the context and the way you say it that matters. So i think that saying sorry, like many people do, is perfectly acceptable, many people accept it, some people are more oblivious.
Cranky_Kong · 1 points · Posted at 16:26:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It is exactly common that's why it is trite and not super useful as you have pointed out because it can have multiple meanings.
What I'm saying is that a when a person experiences emotional suffering the last thing they want to hear is something trite or common or repeated by everyone.
Goffers12 · 2 points · Posted at 16:28:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I get what you're saying but theres only so many ways you can say it without it sounding like you're in a movie, trying to sound eloquent or intellectual, sometimes something basic can be enough.
Cranky_Kong · 1 points · Posted at 16:42:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Something to consider the people who write movie scripts get paid a lot of money to find the right words to fill the scenes. Movies are designed to make us feel emotions that's why we go to them.
I understand distrusting complicated phrases as genuine expressions of emotion, because if you aren't sincere they will come out like a rehearsed script line.
And eloquence at least as far as I've known as always been considered social positive, though in this anti-intellectual age who am I to say?
Maybe you should take a page from reddit and respond more like this:
Is ok bby
RichardRogers · 2 points · Posted at 18:38:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So usage creates the definition when it agrees with your arbitrary interpretation, but its wrong otherwise? You're an idiot.
Goffers12 · 3 points · Posted at 19:51:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Exactly what I was thinking.
Cranky_Kong · 0 points · Posted at 13:54:15 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I highly doubt that's something you do much of...
Goffers12 · 1 points · Posted at 13:55:16 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
You really got me with that one.
Cranky_Kong · 1 points · Posted at 15:15:04 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
It wasn't difficult...
Cranky_Kong · -1 points · Posted at 13:54:58 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
My definition is not arbitrary, I am a writer and words are my toolbox.
I am very good with my tools.
Goffers12 · 1 points · Posted at 13:56:05 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
God you are so far up your own arse.
Cranky_Kong · 0 points · Posted at 15:10:30 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
And you are an anti-intellectual waste of your father's protein.
RichardRogers · 1 points · Posted at 14:22:38 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
"ur a waste of jizz"
-an intellectual
Cranky_Kong · 0 points · Posted at 14:28:54 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
-an rando
mcey · 0 points · Posted at 21:33:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
yet.. the Apology Act of 2009
This is reddit, so we acknowledge that the superior authority of Canadians when it comes to "sorry".
ImmodestPolitician · 10 points · Posted at 17:25:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How healthcare insurance works.
FujisakiChihiro · 6 points · Posted at 15:32:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That we have this thread every week.
yorfavoritelilrascal · 5 points · Posted at 16:39:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Left lane for passing.
snack_overflow · 5 points · Posted at 17:25:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Traffic is primarily caused by not allowing enough space between you and the car in front of you.
Valthek · 0 points · Posted at 23:38:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's mostly caused by humanity's terribly reflexes, taking far too long to go from sensory input to action. Keeping more space just compensates for that.
OnTheBuddySystem · 5 points · Posted at 17:40:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How dangerous water is.
Drowning is the #1 cause of deaths in National Parks by a long shot. Flooding is the deadliest weather event in the US. And drowning causes over 360,000 deaths per year worldwide (which the WHO thinks may be a significant underestimate of what it actually is).
Be careful out there!
Shloomth · 5 points · Posted at 18:13:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Attacking someone's ideas is not attacking someone.
AlrightyAlmighty · 1 points · Posted at 01:46:11 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think the opposite is true, how dare you attack me like that
SuspiciouslyElven · 5 points · Posted at 18:58:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Nobody will see this, but the difference between sentient and sapient. Its a losing battle but it still annoys the hell out of me.
Sentience is awareness, sapience is the ability to reason. Dogs are sentient, humans are sentient and sapient.
ZDTreefur · 0 points · Posted at 19:06:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Thank you, it annoys me when vegans only argue that sentience matters.
catsalways · 1 points · Posted at 23:12:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm not sure what you're getting at? Vegans are merely saying that you do not have to have moral agency or sapience, to deserve your freedom and to not be exploited.
ZDTreefur · 1 points · Posted at 02:56:33 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Don't attempt to speak for all vegans.
Name_Checker_Outer · 5 points · Posted at 19:37:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That 99.9% of republicans aren't nazis.
And 99.9% of democrats aren't representative of Antifa or BLM.
ATrainLV · 5 points · Posted at 19:39:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Left lane is for passing.
Deathsquid · 6 points · Posted at 19:45:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How restaurants function and operate.
Seriously, a large chunk of the populace don't seem to understand the basics of why we do things.
Yes, there is a wait. Either because: A) We literally have no room for you. B) We want to ensure good service by making sure we are not overloading servers with multiple tables at once. C) We have sat too many people in one sitting and the kitchen is going to be swamped with orders. Waiting 15 minutes in the lobby sucks, but waiting 45 minutes at your table makes you angrier. D) Even if we have the tables, we might not have the servers. 400 person restaurant, it's a Sunday. Even staffed correctly, we might have too many people come in at once, and service does degrade the more tables one server has. So we have you wait so you get good service.
You are not entitled to free food or drink. The industry has shifted towards giving out freebies to smooth out difficulties, but things cost money and margins are pretty crap in restaurants.
Literally how much time it takes to cook food. Yes, somebody's salad come out before your well done top sirloin. No, I cannot change the laws of thermodynamics.
Just general demeanor. Especially in America, there is an expectation of service staff to not just be polite and friendly, but to be over the top on both counts. Service with a smile is impossible to maintain 100% of the time, and it's unreasonable to expect it just because we interact with people more. Nobody expects construction workers to frame houses smiling all the time, why do service staff have to?
The customer wants what the customer wants, but sometimes the unwillingness to accept the reality of the how's and why's can get frustrating.
xxxMandixxx · 3 points · Posted at 19:51:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Thanks for taking the time to write all of this out. My first job was waiting tables, but even with the experience I got from it, I didn't fully understand some of this.
AlrightyAlmighty · 1 points · Posted at 02:12:16 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's really interesting to read. Never having seen the inner workings of a restaurant, it can be hard to get your head around all that as a customer.
At the same time, I think it's not only that people just don't understand, it's entitlement, passive aggressiveness, misplaced infantile expectations that lead to customers' out of line behavior.
Then again, it's sometimes hard to tell whether a restaurant is actually trying to fuck you over, to make more money out of you, to privilege other customers, to make their own life's easier by being lazy.
Dig the line about thermodynamics. Be strong and set your boundaries well.
tastefulchrist · 11 points · Posted at 15:33:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When somebody asks for a profession on an AskReddit, saying you are, "Not that profession but" Is really fucking annoying and makes it difficult to find advise actually wanted
The740 · 2 points · Posted at 17:51:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Occasionally there's something worthwhile, where it's someone who's no longer part of that profession or is married to someone is part of that profession and thus is able to add something of value to the conversation.
Ellsworth_Chewie · 11 points · Posted at 14:42:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to use the word "literally"
AlrightyAlmighty · 1 points · Posted at 02:14:11 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Hate how people use it wrong, it literally grinds my gears so much!
yottalogical · 12 points · Posted at 14:57:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You are legally obligated to use your indicators on a roundabout.
Gangstarville · 3 points · Posted at 16:55:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
True. You must indicate when you are going to leave the roundabout
grumpyold · 2 points · Posted at 16:10:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well I mean you are always gonna turn right (left in the UK I guess)
Amorougen · 2 points · Posted at 19:45:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not in Mexico
grumpyold · 1 points · Posted at 19:56:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Interesting. How do they turn in a roundabout in Mexico?
Amorougen · 1 points · Posted at 20:26:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Same as in US, but can go in reverse and change lanes without notice. Also, you cannot always land on the outer lane and you may do many, many rounds before you can get out!
edit: fix a word
yottalogical · 1 points · Posted at 14:30:31 on August 17, 2017 · (Permalink)
When you are getting off that is.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:45:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
*Not in Canada
shifty_coder · 1 points · Posted at 16:20:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
*obligated
If you're obligated to do something, I'm obliged that you did it:
yottalogical · 1 points · Posted at 14:30:50 on August 17, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sorry.
[deleted] · 30 points · Posted at 14:28:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
CICO. Whenever I mention it on reddit, a bunch of people start telling me how it is easier to eat under your TDEE if you take care of certain stuff. Yeah, it is, and it does matter what you eat in regards of health and weightloss - but it is a fact that if you eat less calories than you burn for a prolonged period, you will lose weight. You can eat three candybars per day and lose weight, if those are the only thing you eat.
TeffyWeffy · 15 points · Posted at 15:10:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Hehe, yea I've experience this one for years. I used to be fat (325+) and then lost a bunch of weight and people always ask me "how did you do it" and my reply is always "eat less, exercise more." The look of disappointment on people's faces over the last 6-7 years that there's no secret diet magic has never failed to amuse me.
AptCasaNova · 3 points · Posted at 17:54:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I always recommend MyFitnessPal and people claim it doesn't work. You need to be honest about what you enter into it and many people can't do that.
TeffyWeffy · 2 points · Posted at 17:56:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
People aren't good about portions they actually eat, or entering all the snacks and bites and tastes they have during a day.
I use that occasionally if I need to get back on track.
wahh · 1 points · Posted at 20:13:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That is why I would weigh all of my food. When I tell people that they get annoyed and say that's stupid. Well, I lost 55 pounds doing that for most of it. I know it works. As a consolation I tell people they can approximate a serving size as being the size of their fist. I used that rule for the first 2-3 months of my weight loss journey, and it worked great. However, the more weight I lost I got more excited and wanted to be more exacting to see how things worked.
TeffyWeffy · 1 points · Posted at 20:27:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I kind of did a more regimented plan when I was first losing the weight, which I doubt would work for most people. I would basically eat the same thing for each meal every day for a week or weeks at a time. I might season it a bit different, but oatmeal for breakfast, snack or two during day, premade meal for dinner, and then nothing else. Works great as you don't have to think what to eat each day, or how much you've had cause it's the same for days/weeks.
I don't get bored with food much, cause I just like eating, so it worked for me. Now I generally just keep a rough mental track, or make sure I'm hungry and not just bored or anxious. Basically if I wanted food, I'd find something else to do for an hour, and if I was hungry then, then I'd eat.
Can't say enough for making 10-20 of the same meal on a weekend and freezing, then eating each night, and maybe put in different seasoning, or sauce, or make a different vegetable with it. Was enough variety for me. (Meals are usually a good grain: brown rice/quinoa etc, black beans or another bean, or chicken/fish. Or lentil soup, etc).
wahh · 1 points · Posted at 20:42:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm pretty much in the same boat as you. Meal prep Sunday.
Steel cut oatmeal with a serving of Quest vanilla milkshake protein powder mixed into it topped with crushed walnuts every morning for breakfast. Occasionally I would make egg white omelette muffins to mix things up.
Some version of seasoned chicken with brown rice and a spinach, bell pepper, onion, cherry tomato, and raspberry vinaigrette salad for lunch and dinner everyday for 6 months.
Now, now I'm doing the whole keep rough track of it and weigh myself every morning to keep myself conscious of how much I way. Although, I will admit I have really let my diet go the last month or two, and I really need to wrangle it back in.
TeffyWeffy · 1 points · Posted at 21:20:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When you're a former fatty who likes to eat, it is real easy to turn "ill just take a cheat day" into a cheat week, then cheat month. Is easier to just avoid everything and say "thanks but no thanks" to any food offered to you by others, cause it's real easy to slip back into old ways.
I've never been addicted to drugs or booze or anything else really, but I could very easily eat myself to death (and did for the first 28 years or so of my life) if I didn't mentally push it down every day.
wahh · 1 points · Posted at 21:37:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I totally agree with you about the addiction. Since everyone has to eat I think most people have a really hard time dealing with the idea that our society is largely addicted to food and even worse...junk food. I get ticked off every time I hear some story about how we need to fund research for some random cancer that affects 10 people in the world per year or paying so much attention to opioid addiction treatment. Most people don't even realize that a good chunk of the top 10 causes of death in the United States can be eradicated by proper diet. I assume it is because everyone likes eating food they'd rather just turn a blind eye to it all. Perhaps if we focused on that, we'd have a more heathy population that can contribute more money to those forms of cancer and addiction after we get our collective shit together.
CamBaren · 1 points · Posted at 19:25:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
At the same time, things people don't think about can make a huge difference. For example, stop drinking soda. If it's someone who drinks like 2-3 32ouncers from the gas station a day, they can see an incredible difference, just from cutting those out. Even if they do nothing else. Might seem like magic to them.
AptCasaNova · 2 points · Posted at 17:53:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My ex pretty much ate garbage and lost 35 pounds. He just ate less of it.
Of course he'd be healthier if he'd chosen better food, but he lost the weight and bring lighter improved his health from where it was before.
darwin2500 · 2 points · Posted at 19:32:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
CICO is a law of physics, not a diet.
If it were a diet, the people who use it as the only guiding factor for their eating decisions would lose weight. But, in fact, they gain weight. Which makes it a shitty diet.
poo-boys-united · 6 points · Posted at 14:42:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Right? I find it so frustrating when people complain how difficult it is to lose weight. Count your calories, do some math and eat a little less every day.
Used to work with a woman who went on a "special k diet" whereby she had a bowl of special k cereal for each meal. She complained she wasn't losing weight. Turns out she was eating approximately a box of it every couple of days instead of the prescribed 30 grams.
guitar_vigilante · 5 points · Posted at 16:31:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Because it absolutely is difficult. I lost 70 pounds using calorie counting and exercise, but I still think it's difficult. Losing weight requires, to at least some degree, being hungry for some of the day. Being hungry is hard. Committing to stricter portion control is hard.
Just because losing weight is simple does not mean it is easy.
wahh · 1 points · Posted at 20:36:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I guess I can only speak from my personal experience here. I'm a 5'11" tall 33 year old male. For 6 months I was living off 1200 to 1400 calories per day, and I rarely felt hungry. I knew that with how few calories I was eating I had to make sure that the foods I was eating had absolutely the most nutritionally dense stuff possible. When you're eating foods that aren't "garbage fuel" they help you stay feeling full for longer. My diet mainly consisted of various styles of prepared chicken, brown rice, quinoa, salads (with low calorie dressings), sweet potatoes, steel cut oatmeal (with flavored protein powder mixed in), and walnuts. I also made sure to drink plenty of fluids, and I basically cut dairy completely out of my diet.
With all of that said, I 100% agree with you that it is difficult. The concept is easy: "eat less, move more." However, maintaining the willpower and accountability to actually eat less and move more is much more difficult. It's difficult to spend the time preparing healthy meals for the week. I used to do the meal prep Sunday for the whole week. Now, I do Freshly meals for Wednesday Dinner through Friday lunch, and I meal prep for Monday through Wednesday lunch. Yes, Freshly is expensive, but I'd rather pay the extra money than spend the extra hours in the kitchen. It's also difficult maintaining the willpower and accountability when your friends all want to hang out eating and drinking at some unhealthy restaurant and give you funny looks and make snide comments when you tell them you pre-ate before coming out and only order a diet soda because you're trying to watch what you're eating.
ElliottPolin · 5 points · Posted at 16:30:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Easy and simple are two different things.
ElliottPolin · 1 points · Posted at 16:30:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Easy and simple are two different things.
ElliottPolin · 1 points · Posted at 16:30:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Easy and simple are two different things.
7thgradet3acher · 1 points · Posted at 17:28:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Where do I get the report of how many calories I burn per day?
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:41:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Here are formulas you can use: http://dailyburn.com/life/health/how-to-calculate-bmr/
But to know perfectly you'd have to get measured at a doctor's office.
KingJayVII · 3 points · Posted at 15:54:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That the current gluten free food hype is a huge boon for patients of coeliac disease.
I know that most people who eat gluten free don't need it, but please remember that coeliac disease, the actual sickness that has people rely on a gluten free diet or risk colon cancer, is a real thing. Those morons who think gluten is dangerous actually helped create a market for gluten free food that is great for patients of this disease, like my dad.
radioshackhead · 4 points · Posted at 16:07:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Tax brackets
xraig88 · 4 points · Posted at 16:07:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Email addresses are NOT case sensitive. I work for a tech company and when customers provide me with their email addresses and start with “Capitol T, h ... “ I know I’m about to deal with some serious stupidity.
MagicSPA · 4 points · Posted at 16:35:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You need to let us off the public transport before you can get on.
DeathMCevilcruel · 4 points · Posted at 16:59:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The United States Healthcare system. It makes sense that the average person would have a vested interest in its expansion, continuation or removal. However to recognize why or how any of that should be done, you really have to delve deep into the legalese abyss that is the Healthcare system.
Stevepac9 · 5 points · Posted at 17:19:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Capitalism is a powerful tool that swings both ways. Hate that people need to work retail jobs on holidays? Don't go shopping on holidays. Tired of movie ticket prices increasing? Stop going.
Takes a lot of people to make a change though
AstartesJors · 5 points · Posted at 17:55:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm waiting for u/shittymorph
[deleted] · 4 points · Posted at 18:17:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
AstartesJors · 2 points · Posted at 18:18:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I know right? Like how long do I gotta wait here!
Davinator_ · 4 points · Posted at 18:03:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The national debt is not the same as personal debt
AlrightyAlmighty · 1 points · Posted at 01:50:53 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Care to explain the difference briefly?
nivenfan · 5 points · Posted at 18:06:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Acronyms are only acronyms when the condensed letters can be pronounced as a word. The NAACP, FBI, CIA and NRA are not acronyms. They are initialisms. Radar, Laser and Scuba are acronyms.
Valthek · 1 points · Posted at 23:46:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So what happens when an initialism is used so much more than the actual words it stands for to the point where the initialism becomes a concept/word on its own. Is it an acronym then? Such as FBI or CIA. Both of those are just word the general public.
nivenfan · 1 points · Posted at 10:16:21 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think that's just a convenience.
VivaRickSanchez · 6 points · Posted at 18:23:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You should not hold strangers to your code of beliefs and morals.
reaper555 · 4 points · Posted at 18:26:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Being quiet does not mean you are socially inept, stupid or a snob. Some people are just shy, introverted or distracted.
Receiving a kindness from someone. Does not mean it's a bonanza to get free shit. Don't confuse kindness for weakness.
Men feel emotional pain as deep as women. We just don't like to show it.
When you email me. You don't need to leave a voicemail with the same problem minutes later. I read your email.
leinadbocaj · 3 points · Posted at 18:26:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That a select few bad apples in any race or religion, doesn't mean the race or religion as a whole is bad.
WolfeS93 · 3 points · Posted at 18:39:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Saying "calm down!" to an angry person is actually more agitating.
EngineerBoy00 · 4 points · Posted at 18:41:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Don't engage in behaviors which, if everyone did them, would lead to chaos. Examples:
Meaning, take any behavior you regularly engage in and which you have either suspected or been told is asshole-ish, then extrapolate it out to every single other person doing it, and ask if that's the world you want to live in.
Seriously, I know people like this, and am like this on rare occasion myself, but I am astonished by the number of people who simply refuse to change their behavior unless there are immediate, negative consequences to them, personally. The concept that consequences befall others because of their thoughtlessness never enters into the equation.
rainman206 · 4 points · Posted at 18:47:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That they aren't the most important thing in the universe.
CanadaTay · 4 points · Posted at 18:48:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just because you can afford the payments, doesn't mean you can afford it.
EmptyMatchbook · 5 points · Posted at 19:00:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Time doesn't follow a narrative and the world isn't balanced or equal.
Maybe_Not_The_Pope · 4 points · Posted at 19:15:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Fucking computers. Like, I understand that they're based off of code, I don't understand how the hell that makes fucking Skyrim or even mspaint. As far as my expertise goes, my computer is a box of magical fairy dust that makes images appear.
exitzero · 2 points · Posted at 19:16:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It isn't?
Maybe_Not_The_Pope · 3 points · Posted at 19:17:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I mean, it might be.
Valthek · 1 points · Posted at 23:41:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's not fairy dust, it's magical blue smoke. If that ever escapes, the computer stops working.
Though, if you'd like a real explanation, lemme know. I'm always happy to explain.
nybx4life · 1 points · Posted at 19:17:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The jump from code to images is probably one of the greatest things in technology history.
The_Red_Apple · 5 points · Posted at 19:28:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Being smart doesn't make you better than anyone else
Being strong doesn't make you better than anyone else
Being a parent doesn't make you better than anyone else
Being rich doesn't make you better than anyone else
Being a redditor doesn't make you better than anyone else
Being white doesn't make you better than anyone else
Being an Islamist doesn't make you better than anyone else
Eventually we'll all die and everything you worked towards will be gone. Enjoy the time you've been given on the world before you shrivel up and drop dead.
croyalbird13 · 4 points · Posted at 19:30:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Working in a food service, think twice before you be the biggest asshole in the world. We are literally making you food, and while I've never done anything to someone's food to harm them, you are basically putting your trust in us that your food will be cooked thru or made correctly.
nybx4life · 2 points · Posted at 19:32:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm still worried someone doing food prep would retaliate with my food.
Negative_Toastrider · 5 points · Posted at 19:31:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Freedom of speech.
S1owJam · 1 points · Posted at 19:34:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's almost like people think freedom of speech means they're exempt from the consequences of the shit they say.
Negative_Toastrider · 1 points · Posted at 19:36:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Spot on!
pumpkin_lord · 6 points · Posted at 19:44:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Disagreeing with someone's opinion is not, in and of itself, a hostile action.
MoreDetonation · 3 points · Posted at 19:48:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Climate is different from weather.
[deleted] · 48 points · Posted at 14:59:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Freedom of speech only protects you from being arrested for your opinions - It doesn't automatically allow you a platform to spread hatred, or it doesn't stop private companies, such as Reddit, from banning you from their site, etc.
frogandbanjo · 17 points · Posted at 17:01:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No. The 1st Amendment's protections only do that. Freedom of speech is a concept. Stop conflating the two.
NachosUnlimited · -7 points · Posted at 17:28:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Freedom of speech is part of the first amendment.
Preparator · 8 points · Posted at 18:07:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No, the First Amendment is part of free speech. The concept of free speech exists independently of the existence of the first amendment.
NachosUnlimited · 0 points · Posted at 18:18:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It literally says
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
Its independent of the first amendment, it's just also in the first amendment right?
Fmeson · 3 points · Posted at 18:26:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You two are talking past each other, but probably both actually agree with each other.
NachosUnlimited · 6 points · Posted at 18:28:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Actually I see your point. Thank you, sorry I was to rash.
RichardRogers · 2 points · Posted at 18:26:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Exactly.
bayslaps · 0 points · Posted at 19:14:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is overly pedantic. But, yes.
screenwriterjohn · 2 points · Posted at 16:17:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The public space is a place to spread your hate.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:53:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I love how political reddit is --- this is the 4th upvoted freedom of speech bit in a thread that has nothing to do with it
asdsdfgsw52qafaff · 0 points · Posted at 16:09:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
no but how the group behaves towards that individual shows a lot
If people hail him as a hero silently we have a problem
yottalogical · 17 points · Posted at 15:02:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The biggest problem of the US voting system isn’t the Electoral College. It’s the Plurality System. Basically, it’s a bad choice for voters to only get one choice.
RiotShields · 6 points · Posted at 16:42:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The Electoral College, however, is a problem. It was created to prevent a demagogue from getting elected, and it's so far failed us multiple times (especially Jackson).
One of the big points that I will give weight to is that Americans are just not capable of electing in any system other than the current one. Already, Americans vote sub-optimally (Nader) and any system that could introduce even one more confusing concept would fall apart instantly.
Furthermore, because Americans are averse to government officially regulating political parties, systems like Britain's would be too unpopular to get started.
Personally, I'm a fan of the "are you okay with" system, in which voters are basically voting yes/no on each candidate and the one that the most people are okay with wins.
(More extremely, I'm in favor of a "political literacy" test for voters so only people who understand the system can vote, but that's not constitutional so oh well.)
aofhaocv · 2 points · Posted at 17:52:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This will probably never be a thing in the US because of the 'literacy tests' that were often required by racist laws in the Jim Crow era.
SoulWager · 2 points · Posted at 17:59:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So use instant runoff/single transferrable vote. The optimal choice is to rank candidates according to actual preference, regardless of how other people vote.
RiotShields · 1 points · Posted at 18:30:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ahh, these are exactly the confusing concepts I was referencing. Florida voters have a hard time filling in a ballot with only one vote. Many of these people wouldn't even be able to figure out what a runoff ballot is, let alone use one. And it's not like we can just say, well these people can't vote. That goes against their sense of just democracy.
SoulWager · 1 points · Posted at 18:59:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"rank candidates in order of preference" is not exactly rocket science.
Make a list of the candidates with a unique letter code next to each name(no repeated letters in a single code, arrange the letters of each code in alphabetical order).
Your ballot is a standardized test style answer sheet with a bunch of numbered lines on which to rank candidates, and bubbles for A to Z on each line. You fill in the letter code for each candidate on the corresponding line. You can fill in as many or as few lines as you wish. If you put the same candidate on multiple lines it just counts as the highest of those ranks.
RiotShields · 1 points · Posted at 19:46:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Again, there are already voters who can't fill out a "pick one" ballot but care about their votes counting. It's not about whether the idea is rocket science or not. It's about how many people will screw up, and there will be people that will unintentionally screw up in any system. Don't design this ballot with yourself in mind. Design it with the dumbest person you know in mind. That guy is going to need to be able to fill the ballot out just as well as you can.
SoulWager · 1 points · Posted at 19:59:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I suspect if people can't figure out a "pick one" ballot, it's because the ballot was intentionally designed to be misleading.
Anyway, I'd rather have the option of voting for a 3rd option without completely wasting my vote.
RiotShields · 1 points · Posted at 20:14:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Would you then argue that the Florida "pick one" ballot was designed to be misleading? I don't think it was anything special.
SoulWager · 1 points · Posted at 20:55:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
IIRC it was different in different parts of the state.
KiloPain · 1 points · Posted at 19:58:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The electoral college actually does a good job of mathematically holding the country together. Otherwise, the West could say 'fuck this mess, we consistently under represented' and the east coast could say 'fuck this mess, we are consistently being under represented' and then we ended up with succeeding states and civil wars with borders drawn by the color of the state.
It just so happens this election cycle the flyover states and everybody else that feels a similar way got out and voted because the felt under represented. And the rest of the country will hang in there because they know it's not gonna last forever.
The basis of the electoral college works when people get out and vote. The president we have is a reflection of the most frustrated citizens of the United States (it was the same way for Obama's first election) and if you don't recognize him you haven't taken the time to get to know your neighbors.
RiotShields · 1 points · Posted at 20:13:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
One problem is that everyone but the small states considers those states to be overrepresented.
With the way state representation works in general, an entire (geographical) half of my state will never see either of our senators. None of this area's votes matter at all because the cities have always gone blue and they always win the state-wide elections. Tons of people in my state voted red in this presidential election because they thought they could make a difference, but they didn't impact the state-wide result so they still got zero say in the national election. It's a testament to the spread of the problem that you don't instantly know which states I could be talking about, save that mine votes blue.
And you vastly overestimate the likelihood of both secession and civil war. For that to happen, enough people must be willing to die over an argument, and the PotUS alone isn't that important. The vast majority of citizens will always be relatively moderate and quiet, so they'll just "meh" about until the next election cycle.
KiloPain · 1 points · Posted at 21:09:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I live in a state that went red, I felt certain that it would go blue. The cities always go blue and I'm from the city. I learned a lot about the people I live around that voted red. They claimed to be ready to take up there rifles to defend their rights if the election didn't go the way they thought it should. I mean, I was certainly wasn't serious about a civil war, but i think its safe to assume there are more people willing to fight than what we might think.
It reminded me of an article written about the war in Syria as the violence got closer to the city. No one believed it would actually enter the city.
An engineer witness soldiers shooting at civilians. The engineer, became an ambulance driver picking up anyone injured until his ambulance was destroyed 3 or 4 times buy soldiers. Then he became a bomb maker and sided with the Syrian resistance.
Anyways, I don't think we are on edge of a civil war and I'd say it's because people who care enough to show up to vote feel that they are being represented. The numbers produced by the electoral college helps the country move together regardless of the geography, even if it isn't popular.
brandonrex · 1 points · Posted at 18:15:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There were many choices for President, even using only the 2 party system, there were a solid 19 people who could have won. Most puerile don't actually care enough to pay attention for the length of time it requires.
yottalogical · 1 points · Posted at 14:37:03 on August 17, 2017 · (Permalink)
But you only got a choice of two at the election (the ones who had a 0% chance of winning don’t count).
[deleted] · -4 points · Posted at 15:38:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I mean it always comes down to a singular choice in the end. We didn't just randomly wind up with two major parties. There isn't really a system of government in the world without two major parties.
McBenis · 7 points · Posted at 16:40:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There are lots of countries in the world with more than two parties that have a chance of winning an election..
SMURGwastaken · 5 points · Posted at 16:45:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
lol check out Europe.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 16:46:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
can you give a more specific example?
SMURGwastaken · 3 points · Posted at 16:59:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Finland's last election in 2015 was split pretty evenly 3 ways
Same goes for Denmark
Belgium typically has no clear 2nd or 3rd place either
Even Spain has 3 'major' parties; last year the 2nd and 3rd parties were separated by just 1% of the popular vote
The last Dutch election saw the top 4 parties all get between 13 and 21% of the vote
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 17:00:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Hmm well there you go. I suppose my experience was limited but you've got a good point, cheers for the information and the sources.
Canadarocker · 3 points · Posted at 16:39:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well Canada has 3 major parties federally and 4 in some provinces. Typically the Liberals or Conservatives win but the NDP have at least some regularity of winning especially in certain provinces.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 16:42:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But it is still for the most part 2 major parties. When was the last time that the NDP had control in government?
CaptainMoonman · 2 points · Posted at 17:36:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
They were the official opposition under Harper's last term, but you don't need to be the PM to have power over government. The NDP, in minority governments, still represent a large enough group to pass or halt legislation the same as the Liberals and Conservatives when voting, since they'd each need more than half the votes and none of them would have the people to do it. If the Liberals and Conservatives can't agree, the NDP settle the vote. Though, with the majority government, that goes entirely to the PM's party.
anotherhumantoo · 3 points · Posted at 19:29:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I encourage you to start here:
[The Problems with First Past the Post Voting Explained - CGP Grey] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7tWHJfhiyo
And then move on to this one:
[The Alternative Vote Explained - CGP Grey] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Y3jE3B8HsE
unkwntech · 2 points · Posted at 19:38:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I will always upvote CGP Grey, his content is incredibly high quality and very well reasoned.
artifex28 · 8 points · Posted at 15:05:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Read more: Expectancy of Growth is Causing world of inequality, debt and depression
nism0o3 · 2 points · Posted at 18:21:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I read the entire thread and, once I approached the end, I could see something sort-of positive coming out of it.... well.... eventually. Imagine this, our economic system starts to collapse. Our vehicles sitting idle because gas is too expensive, we eat the debt of the cars but the real-estate sky rockets in areas where grocery stores and resources are within walking distances. Communities that are too far from stores and other resources come together to develop methods of coping. People car pool out of necessity because someone has a Tesla or other EV. Hell maybe we even get horses and buggies. New, small "mom and pop" stores are opened again. People start working these stores and other skilled jobs to help out. Old skill sets are sparked, after all someone will need to create more cost effective infrastructure and utilities. Solar explodes fueling a more efficient source of power for those who can't afford gas and electricity from "the grid". Most wind up ditching their corporate jobs because the big businesses are crumbling. No one can afford to get to work let alone buy their products. People start to barter when their money runs low/out. Communities provide support for struggling families and everyone pitches in. You now have people interacting with each other face-to-face. Contributing to the common good. Creating new systems for healthcare and security. People start setting up their PCs to share information rather than going through an ISP (there is a term for this). People will no longer be looked highly upon for being rich and powerful. Although they would control important resources, they will no longer be feared as their wealth doesn't hold up in the "new system". Respect and power is now in the hands of those who can lead in the new environment and provide a set of skills useful in survival. Politicians get back to the basics. Although corruption will still exist it will not prove to be as fruitful as the corrupt won't have the leverage they had before and, lets face it, the rich and corrupt will be outnumbered 99 to 1. Those who are decent human beings with resources to share will replace the old, money and power hungry shareholders that control the economy now.
Anyway, it will be painful but when the system fails, I think it might just make things better and more sustainable in the long run. THat's my pipe dream for the day!
hamilton4 · 14 points · Posted at 15:49:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That American culture is VASTLY different in different parts of the country. Politics, attitudes, etc. are very diverse in the USA.
BillsGM · 14 points · Posted at 18:31:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Both the democrats and republicans are robbing you blind.
DecorationOnly · 2 points · Posted at 19:57:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is one that can't be upvoted enough. So many completely clueless people...
XPTranquility · 1 points · Posted at 19:49:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Republicans rob you by taking payments from corporations. Dems by funneling your tax money into "Charities" ran by their crooked friends. of course, an exaggeration. Moderate liberal here :D
BillsGM · 1 points · Posted at 00:44:06 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Eh, they both use any means available to achieve wealth and status. I wouldn't say any tactic is limited to one side or the other.
XPTranquility · 1 points · Posted at 00:47:02 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I was catering a little more to the stereotypes but you're probably right. I'm very interested in politics but can acknowledge I have no real knowledge of the inner workings. After being in the workforce for six years or so my general conclusion is that people are just lazy and not good at their jobs no matter what it is or what political party they're a part of.
BillsGM · 2 points · Posted at 00:54:52 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I def suggest reading "The Power Broker: Robert Moses and the Fall of New York" to get an understanding of how most politicians operate. The book really shines a light on the inner workings. It's set in the early 20th century, but the concepts are still applicable. Essentially though, ultra competitive humans love power, they love money and they will do whatever they must in order to acquire it. Contemporary politics are a factor more complex of course, but the fundamentals are the same.
XPTranquility · 1 points · Posted at 01:00:33 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Hey man thanks for the suggestion, I really appreciate it. I definitely know some ultra competitive people who love power and they usually tends to be narcissistic which is what I think of most politicians. I've always found it funny how politicians will suck up to super rich people and Brown nose them for campaign donations even though they're the ones that make the laws. I don't know many politicians who went into office and didn't come out richer or better off after networking.
[deleted] · 7 points · Posted at 15:57:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That it was me who prevented the fall of the Roman empire in the 3rd Century. The question should not be why did Rome fell but how did it last so long
SpunkiMonki · 7 points · Posted at 17:40:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Chicago Deep Dish Pizza...is not pizza. It's a casserole.
heili · 3 points · Posted at 18:53:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's tomato soup with cheese in a bread bowl.
kage1414 · 2 points · Posted at 19:30:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Disagree
Stevenlb · 7 points · Posted at 18:50:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You can criticize both Democrats and Republicans.
Facts are facts and neither party has the monopoly on being wrong.
b4s3b411g33k411fe · 25 points · Posted at 15:04:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
sciense
Barack-YoMama · 62 points · Posted at 15:24:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And spelling
[deleted] · 5 points · Posted at 17:18:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You meen speling?* ;)
[deleted] · 11 points · Posted at 17:32:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
techmology
BoJackB26354 · 1 points · Posted at 18:00:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ats right, innit?
philitup23 · 13 points · Posted at 17:50:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Women.
Reylas · 14 points · Posted at 16:13:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That the United States is a republic not a democracy.
YoMothaFlippin · 7 points · Posted at 17:32:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's actually both.
It's a Democratic Republic.
DanielFrigginJackson · 1 points · Posted at 20:00:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It is democratic. That does not make it a pure democracy. It is a republic with democratic tendencies.
YoMothaFlippin · 0 points · Posted at 20:14:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It does not make it a pure Republic either, so saying that the USA is a Republic and not a Democracy is also wrong.
It's a Democratic Republic, not everything is black or white.
brandonrex · 0 points · Posted at 18:11:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No. It is a republic, but a portion of the leaders are democratically elected. Federal law is not democratically decided, and up until the direct ejection of senators, the House had the only democratically elected officials.
YoMothaFlippin · 2 points · Posted at 18:20:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No. You're wrong.
USA is the definition of a Democratic Republic.
KittenSurgeon · 2 points · Posted at 18:50:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I thought north Korea is. It's in the name.
YoMothaFlippin · 2 points · Posted at 19:07:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You learned the trick of: "Things with X in their name doesn't mean they're X", sadly, this doesn't apply in this situation.
But keep seeking, somewhere out there you'll sound smart with this trick
ThePerpetualGamer · 2 points · Posted at 19:50:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Whoosh
brandonrex · 1 points · Posted at 13:27:48 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
The term you're looking for is Constitutional Republic. We are the definition of a Constitutional Republic.
YoMothaFlippin · 1 points · Posted at 13:36:53 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
N O
Constitutional Democratic Republic
The United States is an example of a constitutional democratic republic. The government is run according to the principles of an established Constitution, and the people do not pass laws based on a direct majority. Rather, they elect representatives to a legislative body who can then represent their interests but who can only pass laws that adhere to the principles of the Constitution.
And yes, if we keep looking for terms we can probably keep adding to that, but it's a Democratic Republic. Always.
thebeastfrombelow · 1 points · Posted at 20:37:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
They are not mutually exclusive. In fact, republics generally are democracies.
What you're probably thinking of is representative (which most democracies are) vs. pure democracy.
Idcatman · 9 points · Posted at 15:44:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That an airplane on a treadmill will take off just fine.
Shustak · 7 points · Posted at 17:32:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I was incredibly shocked at this because I know physics pretty well. So I googled it and saw the different interpretations of how the airplane is moving on the treadmill. I imagined it moving in then opposite direction of the treadmill roll thus staying stationary in relation to the ground. So in that case it won't fly.
Idcatman · 3 points · Posted at 18:16:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
All of the interpretations in which the plane doesn't fly rely on thinking that the wheels are what's propelling the plane.
The plane doesn't really care what's under it, since it's not relying on contact with the ground for propulsion
y0y · 2 points · Posted at 18:18:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When people have a hard time understanding this, I tell them to imagine holding a matchbox car on a treadmill. It doesn't matter how fast that treadmill is going backwards, you can move the car up and down with ease because you are providing the force of movement and not the wheels themselves. They usually get it then.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:53:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Wait huh? Fuck, I suck at physics.
wrong_assumption · 1 points · Posted at 18:17:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Thanks. My reality came crashing down for a moment.
learath · 3 points · Posted at 17:09:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Assuming you don't blow out the wheel bearings or something.
Hurricane_Viking · 1 points · Posted at 17:25:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yup. All about the airspeed, not ground speed.
wrong_assumption · 1 points · Posted at 18:17:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So why they don't have treadmills on aircraft carriers, you genius?
Idcatman · 1 points · Posted at 19:02:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm thinking you're one of the 90%.
JennyFromTheBlock79 · 1 points · Posted at 20:06:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
His actually is dependant on how its phrased.
Sometimes its phrases such that the wheels rotate at the same speed but opposite the treadmill in which case the plane stays still.
If its that the plane moves the opposite direction as the treadmill then it takes off.
Idcatman · 1 points · Posted at 21:04:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
https://blog.xkcd.com/2008/09/09/the-goddamn-airplane-on-the-goddamn-treadmill/
In the one version that it sort of works, what practically happens in that the treadmills spins up to infinity and the wheels explode. There is no way in reality for a treadmill to stop an airplane from moving, since airplanes don't drive from the wheels.
vahntitrio · 6 points · Posted at 17:49:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Humidity. Too many people speak of relative humidity as if it is absolute humidity.
Philosofried · 18 points · Posted at 14:31:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Religion
TreeBaron · 5 points · Posted at 16:23:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
On Reddit at least...
The740 · 6 points · Posted at 17:48:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Hey, it's tough work beating the hell out of theological strawmen daily.
Qu1n03 · 1 points · Posted at 16:56:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sorry but I'm not sure I agree with this one. I think most people understand Religion fine.
Believing that bullshit might be a different story.
notsurewhatiam · 3 points · Posted at 19:00:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Case in point
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:54:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Boop.
joshcart · 3 points · Posted at 16:09:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That the outcome of a decision does not determine whether or not the decision was the correct one at the time. Outcome bias is the wrong way of going about it.
felonius_thunk · 3 points · Posted at 16:31:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The area directly inside or outside of a public door is not the place to stop and take in your surroundings. Fucking move, buddy.
kozycorgi · 3 points · Posted at 16:41:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to listen to other people.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 17:09:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Isms. Socialism, Communism, Capitalism, Objectvisim. You name it.
PrejudiceZebra · 3 points · Posted at 17:19:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That the left-right political paradigm that we are stuck in helps no one but the extremely rich. And as divided as we are in this country, people still keeping voting along party lines with nothing changing for the better.
Edymnion · 3 points · Posted at 17:30:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Based on the popularity of lotteries, I'd have to say statistics and probability.
zdakat · 3 points · Posted at 17:52:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Liking one thing does not automatically mean fanatical hatred of every other item in the category. Sometimes it's ok to like more than one thing.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 17:58:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That cancer isn't one single disease. There are multiple types. Therefore a single cure for cancer is really not possible.
Spear810 · 3 points · Posted at 18:05:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Plumbing. Everybody is just scared to touch it. It's just pipes and physics.
sagetrees · 1 points · Posted at 18:07:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not everyone. I've flooded my place on various occasions.
Spear810 · 1 points · Posted at 22:54:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Better luck next time!
obeCHuD · 3 points · Posted at 18:10:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Getting angry won't help the situation
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 18:25:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
that politics don't matter it's money that matters
Pandora1180 · 3 points · Posted at 18:25:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That u-turns are legal EXCEPT when they aren't.
Chuckles1188 · 3 points · Posted at 18:26:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Probability
EightsOfClubs · 3 points · Posted at 18:26:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Space missions - by the time you hear about them, have been in planning and development for at least a decade.
ForbidReality · 3 points · Posted at 18:28:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Quantum mechanics
Kiwispam84 · 3 points · Posted at 18:43:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Freedom of speech is a guarantee against government persecution, not a social contract.
Meph514 · 3 points · Posted at 18:47:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What a light-year is
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:42:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Buzzzzz
SaloL · 3 points · Posted at 18:49:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Every one of us has the potential to be a concentration camp guard and if you think you don't, you are likely that kind of person now.
ArkitekZero · 1 points · Posted at 20:01:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not everyone has the potential to be a concentration camp guard and if you think otherwise you're obviously projecting your own inadequacies on to others.
EDIT: or it just makes you feel better to think that everyone everywhere is shitty.
AlrightyAlmighty · 1 points · Posted at 02:19:37 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Source?
Chachslayer · 3 points · Posted at 18:55:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Memory and storage are two different things.
Typical_mann · 3 points · Posted at 18:59:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What it's like to be left-handed
FruitCreamSicle · 3 points · Posted at 19:01:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The mainstream media is not your friend
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 19:04:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Quantum physics.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 19:04:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
TRUMPS A RUSSIAN SPY!
SkeetBoy · 3 points · Posted at 19:06:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Riding the bumper of the car in front of you in traffic only makes things worse.
shroudedwolf51 · 2 points · Posted at 19:15:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And, in that situation, especially on a two-lane road, I'll purposely slow down to exactly the speed limit.
ThuloGore · 3 points · Posted at 19:07:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Correlation doesn't imply causation...
SuicidalSundays · 3 points · Posted at 19:08:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When and how to use a turn signal.
PrimeTimeJ · 3 points · Posted at 19:27:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The history of racial inequality in the US since the Civil War.
Some people are quick to point out the disparities of income, incarceration, and education between races and like to label minorities as 'lazy, or dumb,' because, 'there is no racism now, slavery was 200 years ago,' when the effects of institutionalized racism have been rippling even today.
For instance, lynchings, forced evictions, the war on 'drugs', racist housing lending, etc., are all manifestations of institutionalized racism that have troubled the US ever since reconstruction. 'Laziness' and 'stupidity' are not inherent, nor present, in minority groups; there is a direct correlation of inequality relating to wealth because of a history of racism.
ItsKrakenMeUp · 3 points · Posted at 19:27:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Workplace boners
rachaelclementbass · 3 points · Posted at 19:31:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
the left lane is for passing!!! (in the US)
Bobadok · 3 points · Posted at 19:46:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When you don't like the top U.S. presidential candidates, you CAN vote 3rd party.
twlscil · 3 points · Posted at 19:52:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Economics isn't a zero sum game.
Greg-2012 · 3 points · Posted at 19:52:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Quantum Field Theory
snowball534 · 3 points · Posted at 19:53:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Every piece of litter you throw on the ground/in the water makes a difference. There is no "too small to matter". Cannot overstate how important this is because of reasons like bio-accumulation.
Mute2120 · 3 points · Posted at 19:53:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Jobs are not an end. Human well-being should be the goal, with jobs and economic policy being means to that end.
TailboneMassuse · 3 points · Posted at 19:53:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How r/me_irl works
AlrightyAlmighty · 1 points · Posted at 02:20:58 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I sure don't
Jackbeingbad · 3 points · Posted at 19:54:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The concept that money is a promissary note within an established system of monetary record.
That nobody is "creating money" when it's printed.
Further if the government or other organization was willing to corrupt the monetary record system then it's value would collapse.
Cashatoo · 3 points · Posted at 20:12:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Preventative maintenance on their cars (or really preventative maintenance on anything). Everyone has this friend:
"My car has a weird noise."
"My car sure is riding rough."
"Mechanic says I need a new boot."
"Mechanic says I need a new boot and struts."
"Man <car manufacturer> sure makes shit products these days!"
Doobie-Keebler · 3 points · Posted at 20:48:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That freedom of speech is not the same as freedom FROM speech.
You don't like something? You're allowed to speak out against it. You are NOT allowed to silence the other side and claim that their viewpoint somehow harms you just by its being voiced.
ThatGuyInSanJose · 3 points · Posted at 21:29:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Left lane is for passing. Even if you’re going the speed limit, get over to the right lane.
Some parts of the country seem to really get this, mostly the east coast from my experience, while west coast drivers either never got the memo or simply give zero fucks. I’m guessing the latter.
ConfusedDelinquent · 18 points · Posted at 16:11:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well for americans history:
most of us think it is
Egypt
Rome
Middle ages
Columbus
American colonies
U.S.A is born and immediately becomes the greatest country ever.
U.S.A becomes even greater by abolishing slavery, further cementing us as the greatest country
U.S.A saves the world from the germans
U.S.A saves the world from the Nazis
U.S.A kicks Russia's ass and saves the world from communism
U.S.A is now currently kicking the middle east's ass and is saving the world from terrorism
There is so much mising or just straight up wrong with this view of world history, yet most people in the U.S think this is the way everything went down.
Alterx · 8 points · Posted at 17:31:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think most Americans know history pretty well. At my school at least the teachers were great at giving the full story. Including America's atrocities doesn't mean America isn't a great country but we all know what we did to the Indians and slave and also that Russia won the European front.
UneasyInsider · 1 points · Posted at 18:36:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oh that one
Undercover_Mop · 3 points · Posted at 19:33:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, maybe this was true for you, but certainly not for everyone. Seems like you got a shitty education or just didn't pay much attention.
throwaway17oz · 5 points · Posted at 18:41:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Such an ignorant Reddit world view you have
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:56:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No Veitman or Korea?
ConfusedDelinquent · 2 points · Posted at 19:28:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Shhhhhhhh
America dosen't lose
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:35:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
America didn't lose Korea?
ThePerpetualGamer · 1 points · Posted at 20:23:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
AMERICA DOESN'T LOSE
Foolishpuck80 · 7 points · Posted at 14:49:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My ADHD. I'm a adult with it and it's not easy lol. Most people just tell me that I need to calm down, but no one researches it.
unkwntech · 3 points · Posted at 19:12:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The trouble is that the name itself Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder is BS.
ADHD, despite it's name, has nothing to do with an attention deficit. ADHD is an executive control disorder which means that those of us with ADHD don't have the executive control to determine what we focus on. Sometimes this means we can't focus on anything, sometimes it means we can only hyper-focus on this one thing for the next 18 hours.
/r/adhd is alive and well and we always enjoy company.
Foolishpuck80 · 1 points · Posted at 00:14:50 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Hey, thanks for the link!
TheRealHooks · -3 points · Posted at 15:52:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When they say "calm down", maybe they mean you should have been working a little harder on behavioral modification most of your life.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:10:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't understand why he's being downvoted, he's right. Most people don't want to believe it but a lot of people labeled as having ADHD fall into A LOT of bad habits that can be tailored and controlled over time. Doesn't make them perfect, but can greatly assist. Don't discourage these people from attempting to control their behavior
TheRealHooks · 1 points · Posted at 19:19:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
All I know is that behavioral modification works. My brother is diagnosed with ADHD, Bipolar Disorder, and ODD.
His doctors growing up told my parents they had two main options for dealing with it. They could either drug him up or they could focus on behavior modification. My parents wisely chose behavior modification. My parents were diligent about it, and as a result, my brother functions way better than most people. His mood swings are minimal and he knows how to control them when they do occur, his defiant tendencies are in check, and he has greater impulse control and focus than most people.
My brother was never taught the attitude that he can't control himself or for him to blame a diagnosis on his behavior. The responsibility for his own actions has always been on him, and he's a better man for it.
Digital_Frontier · 6 points · Posted at 15:46:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Free speech is for everyone, not just those people whose opinions you agree with
CrossFox42 · 4 points · Posted at 17:54:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is true. But it does not protect you from consiquences of your speech. It simply protects you from the government retaliating against you for your speech.
CourierOfTheWastes · 7 points · Posted at 17:19:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you believe in freedom of speech, but not for your enemies, then you don't believe in freedom of speech.
It's like thinking "I'm not racist, I think all races are equal, only mine is a little better than the rest".
You're adding a qualifier that negates the conviction.
SweetBabyJesus99 · 5 points · Posted at 14:58:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Climate change
sufferpuppet · 2 points · Posted at 18:44:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'd bet the number is 100% on that one.
urine_is_not_sterile · 4 points · Posted at 15:14:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The urine that you pee out is not sterile.
PokeWaffles42 · 3 points · Posted at 15:49:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
thanks mr urine
urine_is_not_sterile · 1 points · Posted at 15:50:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's Ms. Urine to you. :)
HorsemanOfWar · 1 points · Posted at 18:26:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Hmm 3 year old account, and every comment made has to do with urine. Neat.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:00:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Close enough. If you're worried about disease transmission, you have to worry about poop a whole lot more than pee.
Waryz · 4 points · Posted at 15:56:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Don't be a mean. Be kind and people around you will be friendlier
youplayballikeagirl · 5 points · Posted at 18:07:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you want to drive the speed limit or below on the freeway. Get out of the left lane
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:55:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
ChadlikesMilfs · 32 points · Posted at 15:15:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Trump is president
Vyrmayn_Gothryn · -1 points · Posted at 19:00:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Shh, let us live in denial.
vsbobclear · -1 points · Posted at 19:57:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Pretty much everyone accepts that, it's just that we don't like that fact.
truelaw3 · 14 points · Posted at 16:38:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
if you graduate from university in hundreds of thousands of debt with a useless degree, you have no one to blame but yourself
y0y · 4 points · Posted at 18:22:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You have no sympathy for an entire generation who was groomed for nothing else but "going to college" and who simply did what they were told would provide them a better future?
They were basically lied to their whole lives, intentionally or not. I have sympathy for them, even if they did major in something entirely non-econmically viable like Art History.
It's when they later tell me they're going to double-down and go for the master's degree in their non-viable major because "there just aren't any jobs available" that I lose sympathy.
jbaird · 5 points · Posted at 19:08:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah how many of these kids really made their own decisions and how much was made by the parents who should have REALLY known better
imahsleep · 4 points · Posted at 18:58:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I dont ever remember someone telling me to take out a 100k student loan and I never met a guidance counselor that encouraged me to be an art history major. If anything it's the parent's fault. Not the system. Id never let my kid take our that much debt unless they were becoming a dr or lawyer.
y0y · 2 points · Posted at 19:24:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm blaming the parents mostly.
truelaw3 · 4 points · Posted at 19:09:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No one held a gun to their head. You must be in the '90%'
y0y · 2 points · Posted at 19:24:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I guess so.
ThatBlackJack · 1 points · Posted at 19:13:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You get out of education what you put into it. If they did the bare minimum to get buy and put no effort in understanding what potential employers would look for in a candidate - I have no sympathy.
You don't have to major in a STEM field to be successful. You do have to find people in the field you want to go into and find out what it takes to get where they are.
jbaird · 1 points · Posted at 19:07:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Lending is a two way street, we want people to both make loans that can be expected to be paid back and people to take loans that they need..
Bankruptcy and other ways to shed debt are there for a good reason.. its not a flaw in the system, if lenders are guaranteed to get their money back then they don't need to worry about how bad a loan it is and can give any amount of money to anyone.. Bankruptcy and loan default aren't due to someone's character flaws, people shouldn't feel bad about doing either if it makes financial sense. Both of those things are necessary for a lender to be scared about not getting their money back and put the time into making sure the loan makes sense
and unfortunately you'll rarely find people that will turn down money.. so it really makes more sense to go after the rather smaller amount of lenders..
Would you, on your own, go lend six figures to any teenager that walked up and signed papers .. hell no, most would blow it on booze and not pay you.. would you ever run out of teenagers that would sign? unlikely.. You could have national ad campaigns against it and try your best to teach everyone how bad an idea it was and there would be lines around the block..
If the government backed these loans and/or these loans we're guaranteed to be paid back by garnished wages and are impossible to get rid of then sure, lets lend away, its a no brainer!
thebeastfrombelow · 1 points · Posted at 20:40:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The thing is most majors are near useless nowadays.
BillNye_ButtStuffGuy · 9 points · Posted at 14:10:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What it's like to be diagnosed with Alzheimer's disease between the ages of 65 and 85. One in ten people in that age group has Alzheimer's disease. Nine in ten don't.
dmkicksballs13 · 7 points · Posted at 15:41:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Clothing, sexual orientation, race, etc. 9 times out of 10 does not dictate a person's personality.
AgentElman · 2 points · Posted at 16:28:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Clothing does not dictate personality. Personality dictates clothing - to the extent that they can choose their clothing.
dmkicksballs13 · 2 points · Posted at 16:51:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I mean, I've seen very nice people and very asshole people who both wear suits and nice clothes.
AgentElman · 1 points · Posted at 17:40:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
True. There is not a one to one mapping of clothing to personality.
Thrumpledenoozitty · 2 points · Posted at 16:19:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well to be fair, one of those things is different than the other two. You get to choose how you dress, and yeah, while it doesn't dictate your personality, rather, you express elements of your personality through your dress.
otommyboy22 · 6 points · Posted at 17:21:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Eating GMOs will not alter your DNA.
YellowEagleFeather · 6 points · Posted at 17:21:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Correlation does not imply causation.
nick9000 · 1 points · Posted at 18:26:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If we were to plot out those cases where correlation implied causation I wonder if there would be a close match?
TheNaughtyMonkey · 5 points · Posted at 17:23:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That freedom of speech means that you will hear things you don't agree with.
bo_dingles · 1 points · Posted at 17:33:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It also means I can tell you off for saying what I don't agree with.
TheNaughtyMonkey · 3 points · Posted at 17:34:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sure. That is what I said. But, some people have a real problem with the concept.
bo_dingles · 1 points · Posted at 18:40:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Right, that article is not just free speech. It brings up the "your rights end where my rights begin" arguement.
TheNaughtyMonkey · 1 points · Posted at 19:33:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The article about limiting speech offensive to minorities? Not in the US, at least, there is no right to be protected from offensive speech.
bo_dingles · 2 points · Posted at 22:55:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The US has plenty of exceptions to Free Speech. "Fighting words" are one such category. Child porn is another.
Basically the argument is my right to the pursuit of happiness, or other rights I have, and you infringing on them, is how your rights are limited. For example, if free speech is unlimited then anytime I go to a public place you could be there shouting insults/ slurs at me which can impede my ability to be happy since you're always there harassing me. The article seems to say millennials want to swing the pendulum to more restrictions on free speech, in protection of the other rights.
TheNaughtyMonkey · 0 points · Posted at 01:38:46 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
No, the US has very, very limited exceptions to Free Speech. (As an aside, you must be European, as I hear this from Europeans all the time.)
"Fighting words" is probably the most commonly misunderstood exception. It involves a threat against an individual that is specific, imminent, and credible.
In the US (which is what I am talking about) there is no legal Right to be Happy. There is no Right to not be offended. There is no Right to not have someone hurt your feelings.
Yes, and unless my shouting rises to the legal level of "fighting words," I can do so. For instance, if I followed you around and said that you are an argumentative defender of speech restrictions, that would be perfectly legal. And I have never said that free speech was unlimited.
Yes, if you want to shout and drown out the speech of others, you are legally allowed to, by the Government. Now, you might run afoul of private rules, if you did so in a non-Government sponsored setting, like a university.
Millenials, at least those who argue against free speech (as in the linked poll) are using a rather childish argument, that people should not be legally allowed to hurt other peoples' feelings. So, that raises the question: Do you think Donald Trump should have the power to regulate what you say?
bo_dingles · 2 points · Posted at 01:53:53 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I thought fighting words was meant to be something that is intended to break the peace between the person saying it and the receiver. So you yelling that all gays will burn in hell would be protected but you yelling at me specifically that because I'm gay I should be hanged wouldn't be protected. Not the same in the States?
TheNaughtyMonkey · 1 points · Posted at 12:16:49 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Both are protected. You would have to yell something like "I am going to shoot you with this gun in my hand."
bo_dingles · 2 points · Posted at 13:05:38 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Are you sure? This opinion seems to say that words that would make any average man fight are not protected.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/315/568
TheNaughtyMonkey · 1 points · Posted at 13:35:38 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yup. Chaplinsky v New hampshire. You have to look at cases since that one to get the more modern interpretation.
So, Terminiello v Chicago
Cohen v California
But, the real change was in Gooding v. Wilson
This was not found to constitute "fighting words."
The Supreme Court has effectively limited the exception to only include abusive language, exchanged face to face, which would likely provoke a violent reaction.
As I say, the exception is very narrow.
bo_dingles · 1 points · Posted at 14:16:14 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Mate, i just saw your post and didn't vote anything. It has ~ to me, so I don't know your score. Interesting to see how the exception has narrowed. Why downvote what contributes to a conversation?
Edit: in reading the oponion, it seems the last case was that the GA statue was too vague to be applied, regardless of how it fits this case. I don't see it as an erosion of fighting words but that GA hadn't defined it well enough for this to stand.
[deleted] · 7 points · Posted at 17:28:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The truth is somewhere in the middle.
bdeimen · 1 points · Posted at 18:09:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_to_moderation
Teyar · 24 points · Posted at 17:36:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That the increasingly dominant radical left is directly inflaming the increasingly radical right in an ourobouros of tribalism.
And that if we don't return to sanity soon, it's all going to burn.
[deleted] · 6 points · Posted at 19:10:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Racists could just choose to not be racist.
calvinocious · 4 points · Posted at 19:45:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The alt right is a reactionary movement. Everything that's happened in American politics over the last year or so has been reactionary. There's not a whole lot of intellectual honesty going around, which is really frustrating to watch.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:42:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It takes a special kind of delusional idiot to think that the radical right is really the fault of the SJWs.
Teyar · 1 points · Posted at 01:31:17 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
You don't ever actually talk to them, do you? The most common thing said is that they're tired of constantly being called a racist/sexist/bigot/phobic/nazi, especially when completely unjustified.
If you were at all concerned with a complete picture of reality as opposed to this caricature you've got in your head, you'd already know this.
[deleted] · -5 points · Posted at 17:46:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Teyar · 10 points · Posted at 17:56:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Cite a racially targeted law, please. There is no white supremacy - you're a fool for thinking it's a substantive claim. Actual white supremacists are the most reviled, mocked, and marginalized groups in the country.
I can understand the concept of privilege, even if I find it overblown due to the overwhelming numbers of the impoverished, but for the love of sanity, please stop thinking anyone outside your ideology buys your rhetoric.
When your entire argument boils down to "one race is responsible for all the ills of the world, has to be brought low, removed to make room for Good People" you're nothing but a hideously disgusting racist.
[deleted] · -1 points · Posted at 18:51:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[removed]
Redici · 3 points · Posted at 19:09:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"Reverse racism isn't real because only white people have power" go fuck yourself. Firstly your right reverse racism isn't real because discriminating ANYONE because of their race makes you a racist. It doesn't matter what color you are or what color the person you're discriminating against is your still racist because (and I know it can be hard to follow logic, but try) YOU'RE DISCRIMINATING AGAINST SOMEONE BASED ON THEIR FUCKING RACE. Secondly I'm going to assume the only justification that you have for people who discriminate against white (or other "non marginalized" races) is because it's "only" prejudiced not racist, which actually proves my point because a racist is (get this) someone who is prejudice against a certain race. Notice how that's not "prejudice against black people" or any other one race because it's possible to be racist twards ANYONE because again racists are prejudice against ANYONE of ANY race based only on the fact that they are that race.
thebeastfrombelow · 1 points · Posted at 20:55:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The concept of racism cannot be boiled down to simply "one having prejudices against another based on race". It is based on power hierarchies. Whites have historically abused the black race. The point is to correct this dynamic by improving the standing of black people, and by making sure that whites don't have obscene privilege because of their skin color.
White people do not get disproportionately arrested due to non-violent drug crimes, even though they statistically consume about the same as black people. White people do not get killed or beaten on a daily basis by police officers who are given the liberty to do so because of a corrupt judicial system. White people are not assumed to be uneducated or inept by employers simply because of their race.
To be perfectly honest, I don't believe it's the system itself that's the problem, but the people who manage and staff it. Culture has to change. That's the point of this movement, which I admit has gone over the top and counterproductively inspired some reactionaries. But really, saying that racism is simply prejudice against any race is inaccurate and overly simplistic. Perhaps we'll be saying that when all the races are about equal. For now, focus on healing the bruised limb.
Redici · 0 points · Posted at 21:10:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sorry man, I don't argue with racists.
Irelgbt · -4 points · Posted at 17:57:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If your talking about what's going on in America then lemme tell you that you don't even have a radical left it's just that your conditioned to think that the left is pure and utter evil which has hindered the development of your country I mean McCarthyism like hello why isn't that talked about more considering your government went all out to take out the left in US politics
Teyar · 3 points · Posted at 18:00:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Given that Marxism is the holder for Gold and Silver medals where the Nazis hold BRONZE in the Genocide Games, I find your argument utterly unmoving.
Especially because I'm from Bernies state and voted for him with glee - I know damned well social programs are needed and valuable.
Beyond that - do you really need me to get the Antifa and BLM videos that show off horrific violence? Let alone their completely unmolested rioting and vandalism, while police sit by?
Jerk_physics · 2 points · Posted at 19:36:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Lol, google East Timor. Don't forget the genocides in Vietnam, Cambodia, the middle East, south America, and of course, the genocide America war founded on: the extermination of 100 million indigenous people.
Teyar · 1 points · Posted at 01:32:31 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
One hundred million. Yeah. You've got a robust grip of the facts. Uh-huh.
Jerk_physics · 1 points · Posted at 01:42:39 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_history_of_indigenous_peoples_of_the_Americas
Teyar · 1 points · Posted at 01:46:19 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah - your whole perspective requires going out on a limb to the extremes. Thank you for proving my point???
Jerk_physics · 1 points · Posted at 01:48:06 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
So if it was only 50 million people, that would be an acceptable level of genocide?
Teyar · 1 points · Posted at 02:21:26 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not the point - The point is you're the type of person to use extremes to make a point, and I'm done with you. Especially since you know damned well the vast majority of that was disease.
Jerk_physics · 1 points · Posted at 02:25:14 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
You say that antifa and BLM commit horrific violence, but you apologize for a state that has committed countless genocides, and I'm the one going to extremes?
Teyar · 1 points · Posted at 02:36:52 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
And once again you're making my point for me. You're putting words in my mouth because you don't recognize that things are complex, and that people can have opinions different than yours. I've never once apologized for my state, or nation, I don't need to, it's something so vastly removed from my intentions and choices it's completely irrelevant.
Also, nice whataboutery! Seriously - The behavior of a nation 200 years ago versus social movements being critiqued today? How fucking delusional can you get.
Irelgbt · 1 points · Posted at 23:31:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Okay so let's just disregard an entire issue because some violence has occurred
We are people, we all make mistakes and we all look for them too even though I cannot speak for BLM because frankly I don't look into exactly what their doing but when I support the left it's because america is well known for having a huge poverty gap and a general public that looks down on them,frankly the only reason so much charitable work is done is because of colleges and even though they see how badly off some are they still refuse to give one penny to them and try to end the poverty cycle
RuninWlegbraces · 7 points · Posted at 15:03:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
when something is addictive, not addicting.
the_stabologist · 2 points · Posted at 17:40:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm a dick, Ted.
RuninWlegbraces · 1 points · Posted at 17:45:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
lol
[deleted] · 5 points · Posted at 15:05:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Throne-Eins · 6 points · Posted at 15:36:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And that me not wanting to talk to you doesn't necessarily mean I hate you or you did something wrong. I still like you. I just don't want to talk right now. That's it.
Barack-YoMama · 1 points · Posted at 15:23:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Why? I am here if you want to talk.
[deleted] · 57 points · Posted at 14:15:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[removed]
DeckcardCain · 65 points · Posted at 15:27:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Wait a minute. I saw your username recently. Aren't you the Redditor who reposted a comment to try to get as many upvotes as possible?
Original post by tizod
Repost by Quinnsdfs which he removed once he realized that people were starting to downvote him massively.
Proof
Edit: wow, you're still trying to plagiarize. As iwakan mentioned, your current post is also another copy-paste.
iwakan · 32 points · Posted at 15:32:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And guess what, he copied this too: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/6ehsw7/what_is_something_that_90_of_people_dont_seem_to/dib1yhi/
et3rnal98 · 5 points · Posted at 16:45:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's some crazy detective level shit right there.
Wawaweewow · 5 points · Posted at 16:23:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
LOL. Reposting content is bad enough, but how absolutely pathetic do you have to be to repost other people's comments, word for word. It's a great idea that someone would save things they found inspiring, but holy fuck this is just sad.
Qu1n03 · 7 points · Posted at 16:52:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Holy shit someone needs to get you a badge and a gun.
and possibly some badass shades and a stack of one-liners.
Reddit Copyright Protection Devision. The RCPD
Hurray_for_Candy · 3 points · Posted at 16:15:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
He must be employing the adage; If at first you don't succeed, try, try again.
himynameiswillf · 2 points · Posted at 18:43:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
See you in a few hours when this is inevitably on /r/quityourbullshit.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:44:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Fortinbraz · 2 points · Posted at 19:11:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You can also come over to /r/TheseFuckingAccounts, which exposes and tracks accounts like this. Can you find the other two reposts in this thread?
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:56:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
see where all this edumacation has got him!
nickjaa · 2 points · Posted at 21:07:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
fucken busted dude
tempralanomaly · 16 points · Posted at 15:05:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Can confirm, have an empty, confused and angry life
CPSismyhero · 7 points · Posted at 15:17:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I would phrase: what you learn in school is a small part of an education.
Mariothemaster245 · 1 points · Posted at 15:32:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The most important thing you learn in school is how to work and persevere.
functor7 · 3 points · Posted at 15:23:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's kinda sad that people see school as the only place to learn things and, conversely, that there isn't some kind of serious adult schooling system for people that just wanna learn more things! (Adult schooling usually means that you're the old person in college, or your in an after-work class learning the basics of Microsoft Word.)
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 16:02:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well, usually it's only old people that have the time and money to go to those classes. Mine offers Accounting, art and music classes!
Aurify · 1 points · Posted at 15:34:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I wish I could stay in school forever tbh.
sillycylon · 3 points · Posted at 16:14:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I wish we as a society provided people with more time and space to learn. It's so hard to find room to grow.
SpanningTreeProtocol · 2 points · Posted at 18:56:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Shit, best post so far today.
TeffyWeffy · 1 points · Posted at 15:06:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I like this
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 16:00:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I remember joking to my mom that I was 26 and still going to school before I got my business started! I actively enjoy learning and going to class but now only with a couple month break in between.
Oh and if you don't know where to go for classes as an adult, check out your nearest adult school! They usually cater to GED classes but they can have useful classes like accounting and excel!
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:38:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Wow the controversial section is really sad. This should be obvious.
beepbloopbloop · -8 points · Posted at 15:38:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
TL;DR
the-camster · 104 points · Posted at 14:48:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Strict gun control saves lives. It's as simple as that.
People who argue against gun control are basically telling you they don't care about saving people's lives.
iTomWright · 75 points · Posted at 15:11:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
UK/Japan have very strict gun control and gun related homicides are very, very low.
McPebbster · 78 points · Posted at 16:01:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The good thing is, with less guns out there, police can also relax more and aren't as jumpy and likely to shoot out of fear for their life as much. Number of people shot by police in the entire last year in Germany? Seven.
tophermeyer · 27 points · Posted at 15:55:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well sure. And how many horse & buggy related homicides do they have?
Cherry picking gun related crime as an indicator of success for gun control laws is circular. Of course fewer people will be killed by guns. People don't have guns.
A better indicator of safety would be overall homicide rates. Which are also lower in those nations than in the US. That's a much more reasonable argument to make.
asfjfsjfsjk · 11 points · Posted at 16:43:16 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just googled it and China is 1.0 per 100000 and USA is 5.9 per 100000 for homicide rates
Apocashitstorm · 1 points · Posted at 07:16:05 on August 19, 2017 · (Permalink)
Except china has the highest number of executions.
Shotgun_Sentinel · 1 points · Posted at 22:23:00 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
The US hasn't had a 5.9 homicide rate in a long time. Also do you really believe a country that executes drug addicts can be trusted on its crime reports?
asfjfsjfsjk · 3 points · Posted at 22:50:18 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ya I'm sorry it's 4.9 now and Canada china Japan Germany Australia all have much less. That's only the ones I went through to name. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate J
Shotgun_Sentinel · -2 points · Posted at 23:06:58 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah those places have always been like that though, even before their gun control.
asfjfsjfsjk · 5 points · Posted at 00:23:25 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
Lol ok that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard
Shotgun_Sentinel · -2 points · Posted at 00:51:35 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
Its not dumb though, look at their crime stats before and after, and you will see that they never had anywhere near 5 murders per 100K.
Rarus · 7 points · Posted at 02:32:37 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
Could them never having tons of guns have something to do with that?
Shotgun_Sentinel · 1 points · Posted at 03:16:16 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not really, because they always had access to them during that period too. Fact is, if you have a small population to resource ratio, people will be happy and not kill each other.
thesite94 · 13 points · Posted at 15:33:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Because they never really had guns, a gun culture or the frontier/ individualist mindset that the US has. The vast majority of people in the UK/ Japan live in extremely dense cities that, to begin with, had relatively few firearms.
In the US, up until the early/ mid 20th century many people lived a frontier lifestyle that forced a lot of self reliance. If you live hours away from the closest major city, calling the police will do nothing as it takes them hours to arrive and you're likely already dead by then
[deleted] · 82 points · Posted at 15:50:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What about Australia that did have both a gun culture and a frontier mindset, with very few dense cities. Furthermore, they are both countries that invaded a native home and were descendants of the British that found their freedom from them.
The difference being in Australia was that guns were incredibly successfully outlawed and has immensely reduced gun deaths to almost 0. Im unsure as to why the US couldn't do similar.
[deleted] · 24 points · Posted at 17:54:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
[deleted] · 26 points · Posted at 18:01:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah I know they don't want to, it's more I just enjoy hearing how they justify having them. It literally cannot be more than "I think guns are cool", any other argument I've heard holds no weight in a modern context.
Patriarch_of_Raep · -5 points · Posted at 05:48:59 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
But what about hunting for food? That's certainly one other valid reason.
Hemingwavy · 9 points · Posted at 10:49:13 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
The majority of guns killing people in the USA are using handguns. Who hunts with a handgun?
Patriarch_of_Raep · 1 points · Posted at 09:05:02 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
The topic was guns in general, not strictly handguns
canad1anbacon · 1 points · Posted at 16:02:09 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
You can get guns to hunt for food in Canada too, thats not unique to America. Gun control does not mean shotguns and rifles are banned
Blezoop · -5 points · Posted at 08:49:12 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
No one hunts for food anymore though, plus gun control would still allow for 22's and such. Just not giving the masses access to Assault weapons. Hunting for recreation wouldn't be harmed much at all.
Spooky2000 · 11 points · Posted at 11:55:00 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Very few "assault" weapons are used in crimes either. So why is it that those are the guns everyone wants to ban?
Blezoop · 1 points · Posted at 12:05:58 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Because they're the guns used in mass shootings. Australia had 17 mass shootings in the 18 years leading up to the gun regulations, with the most recent being the worst ever in the developed world to date. Since then, 20+ years ago, they've had none. The use of semi-/automatic rifles makes one nut going out and killing swathes of the public, often schools with kids, a very really possibility. Every other country gets along just fine with a lower murder rate to boot. I can understand the "but I like guns" argument, and respect that. But there really are no alternative arguments to that.
Spooky2000 · 3 points · Posted at 16:30:43 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_Australia
I count 5 since Port Arthur. And I personally would rather be shot than burned to death which seems to be the new preferred method.
Blezoop · 2 points · Posted at 16:36:59 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
They're almost exclusively family killings/suicides though, I'm talking about hate crimes/mass shootings, The occurance has been drastically reduced and my relatives still have their rifles etc.
Spooky2000 · 3 points · Posted at 16:42:21 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
And six of those in your timeline before Port Artur were also family killings/ suicides. Why the difference afterwards?
Blezoop · 2 points · Posted at 16:46:45 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Look all I'm saying is that gun violence went down, especially large scale shootings and the like, I don't really know much on the subject otherwise tbh.
Spooky2000 · 3 points · Posted at 16:49:24 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes, so gun violence went down, burninating went up. People kill people. Take one weapon away they will find another. Take away the guns in England and people drive trucks into crowds.
Blezoop · 0 points · Posted at 17:20:17 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Suddenly it's harder to do and teenagers stop doing school shootings or young men with club shootings and people are forced to use cars instead, something much easier to deal with, car injuries are easier to treat than bullet wounds, less fatal etc etc.
There are more methods, and people will always kill each other, but a gun culture isn't a very good thing to have with current American society. Maybe in the future it could work, but currently I don't think It does.
Anonymocoso · 3 points · Posted at 20:15:09 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
My Native American coworker used to bring in yummy Elk Teriyaki. (He had been in Hawaii in the Air Force, so everything he shot ended up in teriyaki.)
Apocashitstorm · 1 points · Posted at 07:16:59 on August 19, 2017 · (Permalink)
Don't they have pretty high incidents of rape and child rape though?
Shotgun_Sentinel · 0 points · Posted at 22:24:42 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
They still never had the number of guns the US had, nor the levels of crime or murder.
No, they only really lowered their gun suicide rate, not their murder rate. They haven't made a serious dent in either total rates however.
officeDrone87 · 3 points · Posted at 02:45:46 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
Australia's homicide rate has dropped by half since the gun control passed.
Shotgun_Sentinel · 3 points · Posted at 03:15:30 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
It increased first though, and you source doesn't even say what you are saying. From the same source here is the actual crime rates.
http://imgur.com/a/QFc1N
We also had a drop in Homicides in the US during the same time period. Ours even dropped faster then theirs, and we pretty much did the opposite thing they did.
Hemingwavy · 5 points · Posted at 10:48:06 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Man come on. There are tons of countries that had similar frontiers. Australia? The gun violence is the US is unique.
LibertyTerp · -5 points · Posted at 15:45:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Canada, Switzerland, Norway, Sweden, and Finland have lots of guns and gun related homicides are very, very low.
Seems like there is something else at work.
Visualmnm · 55 points · Posted at 00:32:12 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
All of those countries have far harsher gun control laws than the United States.
[deleted] · 15 points · Posted at 05:22:03 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Guns and ammunition are heavily regulated in those countries unlike in the US.
And Finland does have a school shooting problem as well.
Like what?
DanDierdorf · 24 points · Posted at 03:00:19 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
You know about all those guns in Switzerland, cool! Did you also know they have no ammo for all those military guns?
tunajr23 · 2 points · Posted at 06:44:13 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
They actually do, they do have ammo
They can have private ammo for personal use but "military ammo" for their military weapons isn't kept, they can have personal ammunition
But I'm not personally from Switzerland, but that's what people who've claimed to be from Switzerland said
Blezoop · 7 points · Posted at 08:51:53 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Another factor is that a huge portion of the public has undergone mandatory military service, everyone is trained and the culture around that serves to lessen the negative effects. America not having mandatory service has to compensate in other ways. I.e gun control laws.
Totherphoenix · -9 points · Posted at 08:58:05 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
UK/Japan don't border Mexico
Shotgun_Sentinel · -1 points · Posted at 22:21:45 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
They have always been that way, even before their gun control. Also japan has a very large suicide rate despite having little access to guns.
kotabass · 18 points · Posted at 20:09:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Wow you are SO right. I just wish someone would make cocaine or heroin illegal so we could get rid of it.....
ddddddd543 · 6 points · Posted at 20:45:21 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Please list similarities between recreational drugs and firearms that make this a valid comparison.
kotabass · 1 points · Posted at 22:38:09 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well the main thing being that people assume that making guns illegal will suddenly make the country a better place but drugs are illegal and not hard in the slightest to get. Plus look at prohibition....same thing happened when we make alcohol illegal
paperTechnician · 5 points · Posted at 22:59:12 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
He literally asked why it was a valid comparison (guns to drugs) and you just repeated an argument that assumes it's a valid comparison. (Also few people want guns to be illegal: they want their sale to be better regulated so that, say, mentally ill people can't buy a gun and commit a shooting in the same day)
TheRealHooks · 21 points · Posted at 15:45:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Depends on the level of gun control
It's not that simple. The right to protect oneself is pretty high up the ladder for things that matter.
[deleted] · 34 points · Posted at 15:54:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And yet a gun is in the home is 22 times more likely to be used in an assault, accidental shooting or suicide then it is to shoot an intruder.
So logically you would be safer without the gun in your home.
icedesparten · 8 points · Posted at 18:17:51 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
JustTray · -1 points · Posted at 21:43:13 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
4.7 million incidents. That's amazing considering there's only roughly 1.2million total violent crimes in the US each year.
Please stop spreading the debunked and false DGU stats. I get it, it's the only thing resembling stats that supports your cause, but it is 100% not valid in any sense. None of those numbers are accurate, scientifically. It was a self included study extrapolated irrationally.
Shotgun_Sentinel · 3 points · Posted at 22:34:16 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Thats the number of reported violent crimes, not the total number of crimes that happened. Most people don't call the police when they experience a failed robbery.
icedesparten · 1 points · Posted at 21:51:00 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well that number would include incidents that were defused or prevented simply by the presence of a firearm, and may not have been reported to the police or marked as a violent crime, not to mention you completely ignored the smallest estimate, which is still much higher than total gun deaths, including suicide and homicide.
JustTray · 0 points · Posted at 22:03:09 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
What you posted is a fantasy and has no basis in reality.
Shotgun_Sentinel · 3 points · Posted at 22:34:57 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yet there are multiple studies that put DGU in the millions.
JustTray · 0 points · Posted at 22:47:49 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
No there are not. Just one debunked one by Kleck
icedesparten · 3 points · Posted at 22:54:56 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
You still ignore even the most conservative study putting them in the 50,000s which is still far above people killed. If you go by an absolutist ratio, there are more lives saved than lost because of guns, and that gap widens when you realise that suicidal people don't commit suicide because of the tool they use, but because of mental conditions which would still exist without the firearms.
JustTray · 0 points · Posted at 23:44:18 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I ignore all studies that whose methologies are flawed. NO conclusions can be made from them, by definition.
You want real numbers? Justified homicides in the US are tracked, there's between 100-300 per year if memory serves. Even multiplying that by 7 for average handgun fatality that's only 2100 defensive gun uses per year. Those are the facts as reported by the FBI.
icedesparten · 3 points · Posted at 00:00:14 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
You again ignore non-fatal defensive uses. And again dismiss even the more conservative study out of hand, without explanation. Describe the methodology used by Herenway to produce the 55,000-80,000 numbers. The study explicitly critiques the study you are complaining about but still comes out well ahead of your own unsourced numbers.
Meta-study: http://scholarlycommons.law.northwestern.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=6938&context=jclc
JustTray · 0 points · Posted at 05:01:03 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
No I did not. I accounted for it by multiplying the total justified homicides per year by the average shots it takes to kill someone.
You seem to want to include illegal brandishing via self reported study as defensive gun use and nothing could be more imaginary or stupid.
icedesparten · 2 points · Posted at 10:52:46 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's not illegal brandishing if it's done in self defense, it's self defense that didn't require lethal force. Shouldn't that please you, given someone isn't being shot? And again, you have no actual source for your numbers, no study, no nothing. Until you can come up with a study saying DGUs are significantly lower than that, you're just wrong.
icedesparten · 2 points · Posted at 15:57:59 on August 17, 2017 · (Permalink)
I must assume by your lack of response, that you know that you're wrong on this matter and conclude this business with only a little bit of gloating.
Shotgun_Sentinel · 2 points · Posted at 23:06:27 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes there is, one was even done by the people at Harvard that put DGUs at 1.4 million.
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/12/bruce-w-krafft/david-frum/
icedesparten · 2 points · Posted at 22:08:12 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
And what studies are you basing that on? I mean, if your argument has a basis in reality, then surely you can back it up with sources, like I have. How about even just attempting to explain how my statement is a fantasy, or how it has no basis in reality, rather than just dismissing me out of hand, since "no ur rong" is neither an argument nor a counterpoint.
spriddler · 7 points · Posted at 22:13:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well that's true almost entirely because of suicides, and if you only count instances of self defense where a gun was discharged and that was reported to the police and if you almost completely discount the responders to the NCVS.... Lots of qualifications for that.
TheRealHooks · -7 points · Posted at 16:02:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Agreed. However, averages don't apply to individuals.
I trust myself to be careful with my guns, but I do not trust myself to be able to fend off an intruder, armed or not, and I certainly don't trust the police to get here quickly enough.
This is more about freedom and choice than about what is the most logical way to get death numbers down. Logically, obesity would be way less of a problem if there were no fast food restaurants, therefore we should ban fast food restaurants, right? Nonsense. You can choose to eat McDonald's every meal every day if you want.
There would be fewer lung cancer cases if nobody smoked, so we should ban smoking, right? Nonsense.
There would be fewer cases of heart disease and other general health issues if people exercised, so we should force everyone to exercise 30 minutes a day, right? Nonsense.
Smoking, eating poorly, and lethargic lifestyle kill WAY more people than guns every year, but we don't take away people's rights for it.
[deleted] · 7 points · Posted at 23:19:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Smoking, obesity, and heart disease things affect the person doing them. The average person isn't going to care much as long as they have the choice to avoid it.
As for guns, it does affect them. Now, a choice of another person(owning a gun) can kill you. As someone said before, a gun is used 22x unlawfully than it is used lawfully, excluding police.
It's better to take 22 guns away from criminals and one from a lawful responsible man than to let the 22 criminals kill 22 others and the good man save one life
[deleted] · 12 points · Posted at 16:05:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Right but a fast food restaurant wasn't designed with the specific purpose to kill. A gun was and it very clearly is causing more harm than good.
22 times more likely to be used in an assault, accidental shooting or suicide. And you may trust yourself to be careful with your guns, but that doesn't extend to the millions and millions of other Americans who are demonstrably reckless with their gun ownership.
Edit:
Also averages don't apply to individuals? That's the dumbest shit I've heard all week.
TheRealHooks · 3 points · Posted at 16:13:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Obesity accounted for nearly 15 times more deaths than guns in 2016. If you really care about saving lives, you'd care more about controlling the fast food industry and people's diets.
Yes, a gun is designed to kill. Designed to kill intruders, designed to kill animals, designed to kill in combat.
You're ultimately talking about controlling what people can/cannot purchase for the sake of saving their own lives. If that's what you care about, then you should care a lot more about fast food, cigarettes, and sedentary lifestyle. Those things should be banned way before guns.
[deleted] · 9 points · Posted at 16:16:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ok maybe we should be banning that stuff as well.
But just for the moment, if we're purely interested in reducing death in America, it would make sense to ban guns, no?
Like ignoring other issues, if we just want to reduce the amount of fatalities, banning guns would decrease deaths.
TheRealHooks · 9 points · Posted at 16:19:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If that's all we're interested in, yes. However, the measures to decrease those deaths also reduce freedom, and that's not ok. Just like with what you eat, smoke, how much you exercise, etc, it comes down to personal choice, and having those choices matters.
[deleted] · 10 points · Posted at 16:23:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Right. So we agree that if we want to reduce fatalities in America, banning guns would help that?
And we also agree that you are 22 times more likely to use a gun in an assault, suicide or accidental shooting then you are to use it in home defence?
Are you comfortable with those 2 statements?
Furthermore I'd like to point out at this time that in countries with strict gun control, any member of the public is allowed to own a gun so long as they go through the correct procedures.
TheRealHooks · 5 points · Posted at 16:28:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Agreed.
Yes and no. I'm not a murderer, and I am not going to commit suicide, and I'm not an idiot with my guns, so I am not 22 times more likely to use a gun in those ways. However, I don't dispute the statistic in general.
Yes, I'm totally comfortable with those two statements.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 16:35:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Wow I really did not expect you to be comfortable with both of those statements.
Ok.
But you also know that even in strict gun controlled countries you would be completely able to own a gun, and in those countries gun related deaths are almost 0? (Specifically I'm using Australia as my example here)
TheRealHooks · 7 points · Posted at 17:18:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I value personal liberty above pretty much all else. Why would that be surprising?
[deleted] · 6 points · Posted at 17:19:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I just thought the value of innocent human life might trump that, but apparently not, even though in this scenario you still would be able to own a gun legally.
TheRealHooks · 6 points · Posted at 17:28:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If everyone has the right to own a gun, then it's obviously not strict gun control.
Yes, liberty trumps it. With freedom comes collateral damage. People have the freedom to eat what they want, so obesity kills tons of people. People have the freedom to smoke, so people die from it. People have the freedom to drink, so sometimes people die from accidents. People have the freedom to go out after dark, so sometimes people get attacked in dark alleys or hurt in other ways. Every freedom afforded to us comes at some cost.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 17:41:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Do you believe that all drugs should be legal? Do you believe that roads should have speed limits?
TheRealHooks · 2 points · Posted at 17:53:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
For adults, yes. What you want to put in your body is your business.
Yes.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 18:00:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And you don't consider speed limits on roads to be impeding your personal freedoms?
And do you not recognise that drugs such as heroin and cocaine are addictive to the point where it more often then not leads to others being harmed to fuel the addiction, especially in the cases where parents are addicted to those drugs and will neglect their own children because of it?
TheRealHooks · 7 points · Posted at 18:09:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I generally think speed limits should be higher, but that's not an area I feel particularly oppressed if I'm following a speed limit. I wouldn't be too torn up if there weren't speed limits anymore though.
As for drugs, I'm not advocating doing drugs, and I'm not saying neglecting your children or harming others as a result of doing drugs is ok. I'm saying if you want to do some cocaine on the weekend when you've got a babysitter watching the kids, go for it. It's not wise, but go for it. It's similar to alcohol. Alcohol is pretty damn addictive, but there are plenty of people who drink alcohol but don't drink while they're at work or watching their kids. They drink in appropriate places and responsible ways.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:16:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Right but we have documented proof that drug addiction is substantially worse than alcohol addiction. And that the legalisation and spread of hard drugs would likely only spread addiction further, which will inevitably lead to more suffering for families. Are you comfortable with that being the outcome of legalisation of drugs? Would you also not be infringing on the personal rights of a child by allowing a parent to legally access a substance that has been proven to have devastating effects on the user and their families?
And so is the issue more closer to oppression? Do you base how you value your personal feelings on the amount at which it is perceived to oppress you?
The_Masterbolt · 6 points · Posted at 20:29:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You realize that alcohol is a drug right? You realize it's one of the only drugs that can kill you with the physical withdrawal, right?
Edit: and that marijuana and opiate use in teens has seen a decrease in states where marijuana is legal?
I think you're making up your "documented proof"
PACK_81 · -5 points · Posted at 20:02:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Get out of here with your communist Bullshit.
spriddler · 1 points · Posted at 21:18:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It would make even more sense to ban drugs...wait a minute...
[deleted] · -6 points · Posted at 21:56:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Trans Fats are designed to kill shrug
bitchycunt3 · 7 points · Posted at 19:29:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Except I choose to take the risks from eating fast food or smoking. It's my choice if I do those things. Getting shot by someone is not my choice
TheRealHooks · 0 points · Posted at 19:43:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's why shooting someone else is illegal!!!
I guarantee I could shove a Big Mac down your throat in a way that choked you to death, and of course that would be illegal, not because of the Big Mac, but because of the way in which I used it.
Similarly, owning a gun should not be illegal, nor should using it to protect yourself or to hunt with.
Shotgun_Sentinel · 0 points · Posted at 22:33:11 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
That doesn't mean it wont successfully defend from an intruder.
[deleted] · -5 points · Posted at 20:37:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It would depend on the level of gun control if literally ANYONE was proposing taking the guns away. No one is so don't make it seem that way. The right to protect oneself does not guarantee the ability to do so. An untrained guy with a gun just adds more danger statistically. CIA, FBI, NYPD all agree.
spriddler · 0 points · Posted at 21:15:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
They do huh?
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 21:35:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes. I'll let you spend the effort to Google the other ones.
https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/active-shooter-study-2000-2013-1.pdf
spriddler · 3 points · Posted at 21:57:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That is a study about active shooters, i.e. mass killers or rampage killers...
I am familiar with the research on gun violence. The organizations listed do not have researched that supports the notion that guns are ineffective for self defense, well maybe the NYPD does, but I doubt it.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 22:22:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So you didn't read the study. Here. http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/5900748
spriddler · 2 points · Posted at 22:31:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Incidents with active shooters are the rarest sort of gun violence and as such are a silly place to try and make a point self defense with a gun. At any rate, you can find plenty of incidents where people legally carrying did stop shootings, they just didn't turn into active shooter situations because they were stopped quickly.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 22:41:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's great. If they're not insane and don't mind waiting a few days, they still can do so without a multi round assault weapon. Surprise. No one is banning guns.
spriddler · 1 points · Posted at 22:50:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well, except for Australia and the UK and "assault weapons."
And anyone judged by a court to be "insane" is already a prohibited person in every state. Many states already have waiting periods.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 22:54:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah and it worked out terribly for the U.K. and Australia. It is also not illegal to buy a gun with a criminal record in some states.
spriddler · 1 points · Posted at 23:21:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I wouldn't say it worked out terribly, it just didn't seem to accomplish much of anything.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 00:33:00 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I was being very sarcastic.
spriddler · 1 points · Posted at 00:52:50 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm aware. Just what do you think was accomplished in the UK and Australia, two places that never had a substantially worse problem with gun violence than they have now?
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 03:01:54 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Specifically mass shootings? It had a huge effect. Went to practically zero if I recall. If you think it wouldn't have a similar effect with day to day shootings like in Chicago, you're just not thinking. A black market for guns would be very difficult to run.
The thing I don't understand is this. If you could still legally obtain a gun for the purpose of self defense, why the fuck would you not want other gun control policies are put in place regardless of how strict?
spriddler · 1 points · Posted at 06:40:19 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Mass shootings are very rare. Once every several years events are outliers, we could say something definitive about the efficacy of the ban in a few decades perhaps. In the meantime though there certainly have been mass shooting incidents, gunmen taking hostages, etc... that weren't much worse due almost entirely to luck: Sydney cafe hostage crisis, Monash University shooting, etc...
If you think that a dearth of very rare events predicts anything about common events, you are the on that is not thinking.
Every country on Earth has a functioning black market for guns. Some countries just don't have much of an illicit demand.
And pistols, pump action shotguns, semi-auto shotguns, magazine fed rifles are all banned for the vast majority of the population. They do not have access to appropriate means of self defense.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 16:49:21 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Black market being difficult to run well =\= black market not existing.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 11:07:52 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
spriddler · 1 points · Posted at 12:36:40 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not entirely, that is true. A normal citizen does not however have access to pistols, pump action shotguns, lever action rifles, or any semiauto anything. In other words, you pretty much cannot take advantage of late 19th century technology. The vast majority of guns in circulation in the US would be unavailable to a normal citizen.
LibertyTerp · 32 points · Posted at 15:43:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
These kinds of personal insults are why talking about public policy on the Internet is so terrible. Stick to the facts, not insulting everyone who disagrees with you.
Canada, Switzerland, Norway, Sweden, and Finland have tons of guns and low crime. For that matter, the suburban and rural US has more guns than the urban US but far less crime.
Every government that wants to control the people first takes their guns away, time and time again. If you want the people to be less powerful, take away their guns. Human history is largely a history of constant oppression by the elites. I don't have any guns, but gun ownership in general is crucial to defending democracy in the long run.
[deleted] · 11 points · Posted at 19:06:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
AndreBex · 6 points · Posted at 19:08:10 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's not entirely true. Pistols and automatic weapons are completely illegal unless you are military or police or at a gun range. Hunting rifles and shotguns are different. But there are laws regarding the amount of ammunition allowed in the magazine at once etc. To get a gun license you need a hunting license which requires different types of background checks. All guns must be LOCKED in a gun safe in a safe place, preferably a basement of some sort where access isn't easy. No children are to have access to the safe or keys. The guns are only to be removed when they are to be used.
Shotgun_Sentinel · 2 points · Posted at 22:32:24 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
People do have guns in their homes, they could take them out and carry them if they wanted to, they don't because they don't want to get arrested. If people wanted to kill each other there they could, but they don't because they live too well to risk it.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 12:27:20 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Shotgun_Sentinel · 1 points · Posted at 14:53:57 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well yeah, thats most people.
Ah, I see, you are arguing from a position of ignorant nationalism and hatred. Most of us make families too, and we just want to protect our families from the barbaric elements of our society often enabled by your type of person.
Well that is just plain false, you can benefit by taking a life if it preserves yours or your family members life. That statement is incredibly naive and childish.
Again this is false, self-defense is a perfectly fine reason. Guns are an equalizer against those who have more physical power or outnumber you.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 15:17:26 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Shotgun_Sentinel · 3 points · Posted at 15:28:56 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
Its not, sometimes you just know someone is wrong through living life.
There is no society without violence, and regardless we still both live in societies with riots and violence. So self-defense will always be necessary. Guns can fix individual problems with violence.
Its not wrong, its just a fact. I can not fist fight or stab a group of attackers well enough to be effective enough to stop them from hurting me.
Thats just plain untrue, society has gotten safer since the invention of the gun, and it has also gotten safer in the US despite what people think about our increasing gun ownership.
Lol, you can still be a nationalist and be left wing. The Soviets were nationalist and left wing. The fact that you think your country is better or have the audacity to suggest the US is uncivilized while your country is is in essence nationalist. You people are so socially unaware its like talking to robots. You think your shit doesn't stink, and then get offended when people remind you by putting your own shit right up in front of your face.
As for equality, if you are against carrying guns then you are against equality. The fact is nature has made us physically unequal people, the gun is the equalizer.
Speak for yourself.
Speak for yourself. You are exactly what black people make fun of white people for being. Out of touch while also being on a high horse.
Our American way is doing nothing to anyone but providing safe and accessible trade for everyone to let their economies flourish. You would know that if you were the grown up.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 22:00:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
[deleted] · 6 points · Posted at 11:03:29 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
IAmHereToComplain · 8 points · Posted at 00:28:17 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Please link source :)
Dogfacedgod · 5 points · Posted at 10:16:37 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 02:25:01 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Dogfacedgod · 1 points · Posted at 10:34:56 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
Is that how you debate\critically think? Ask for a source then semantically pick at it because you were wrong, or rather, it kills your narrative? Of course these are estimated numbers, how do you think these things work? Estimated, but scientific and valid, the references are all there for you to check out, broham. You dont think 110 per 100 in the US is too high, do ya? But when your claim about Sweden is blown out by facts and cites, you play the logical fallacy game. Its not a good look, homie. Take the L and go home. If you have counter facts, or can debate intelligently, come with it or quit wasting time.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 12:08:22 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Dogfacedgod · 1 points · Posted at 14:27:18 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
Please feel to check my post history, I provided someone else who stated "Wikipedia isn't a source" with 3 different other sources to back up the Wikipedia source (which has a reference section as well, but I digress). Also, just because you're Swedish, doesn't make you THE authority on the point being debated here. It does give some insight to your experiences, but those are not really relevant to the point being discussed. Your claims are all hearsay, subjective conjecture; hell how do we even know you're even Swedish? (I concede you are, just making a point here). I stated facts with multiple cites to back up those facts. You choosing not to believe them, I aint got nuttin' more for ya.
Anyway, I think you and I are at an impasse so I am going to bid you a good rest of your day.
IAmHereToComplain · 2 points · Posted at 14:35:49 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
Hmm yes you have a point! Lets agree to disagree :) Godday or as said in swedish ha en fortsatt trevlig dag
your-arsonist · 1 points · Posted at 08:25:47 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
He doesn't have one lmao
Dogfacedgod · 2 points · Posted at 10:16:41 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country
your-arsonist · -1 points · Posted at 16:43:51 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Wikipedia isn't a source
Dogfacedgod · 2 points · Posted at 17:03:07 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes it is, it even has a nifty "resources" section for you too! But since you're being that way, allow me to add a few more for ya!
http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/home
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/small-arms-survey-countries-with-the-most-guns-1.3392204
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/maps-and-graphics/mapped-the-countries-with-the-most-guns/
Is that enough sources for you?
canad1anbacon · -2 points · Posted at 16:12:07 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah there a lots of guns in Canada. Mainly rifles and shotguns used for hunting. But you can't carry a loaded gun on your person in public, you definitely can't open carry, automatic weapons are banned, high capacity magazines are banned, we have no stand your ground laws. Thats how it should be
Bagellord · 5 points · Posted at 18:01:16 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
What is wrong with standing your ground or castle doctrine?
canad1anbacon · -3 points · Posted at 18:53:03 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
It leads to people shooting because they want to kill and then claiming self defence.
Besides, killing should only be permissible if the person is posing a direct danger to your life, or the lives of others. If you have the option to exit or defuse a potentially dangerous situation, you have the responsibility to take it
Bagellord · 5 points · Posted at 18:56:23 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Um citation needed for that first part.
That's exactly what those two are for - for when a reasonable person is in fear for their life. It just removed the duty to retreat because your ability to escape might not always be obvious.
icedesparten · 3 points · Posted at 21:08:45 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
You understand that that's pretty much what stand your ground and castle laws encode right? The idea that self defense is a right, and the law shouldn't punish people for defending themselves when their lives are in danger.
icedesparten · 1 points · Posted at 18:16:29 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Open carry is technically legal for non-restricted class firearms (rifles and shotguns) though doing so in urban areas typically results in "disturbing the peace" type charges. As well, 1/3 of license holders have a restricted class license, meaning there's around 600,000-700,000 people legal to own handguns. As far as magazine capacity laws are concerned, they're a shitshow, and it's extremely common in rural areas to unpin magazines to shoot at full capacity, then re-pin them when they're done shooting, since it's so easy to do so.
[deleted] · 16 points · Posted at 15:07:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
poo-boys-united · 33 points · Posted at 15:11:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
shall we count the death toll in australia or the UK from acid attacks, machetes and driving through crowds of protesters and compare it to the death tool at the hands of guns in the US?
EDIT: per capita obviously
Shotgun_Sentinel · 2 points · Posted at 22:38:11 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
The thing is those countries never had high homicides even before their gun control. So acting like their policy would work in the US is just dishonest.
spriddler · -4 points · Posted at 21:12:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So strict gun control must have caused a noticeable decline in those countries' problems with gun violence... Right???
Hemingwavy · 3 points · Posted at 10:51:25 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Check the suicide rates. Happened with coal gas, would happen if you actually managed to eliminate guns.
spriddler · 3 points · Posted at 13:28:48 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
There does seem to be an initial drop in suicide rates when you remove a preferred method. The drop does not seem to be particularly durable though. Australia's suicide rate is creeping back up and is once again very close to the suicide rate of the US.
Hemingwavy · 6 points · Posted at 14:57:20 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
By a drop you mean a third? Never approached that rate again as well.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC478945/
spriddler · 2 points · Posted at 16:11:46 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
The UKs drop was durable. It looks like Australia's drop may not be though as it is returning to the pre ban historical norm. Having risen over 20% in the last decade of available data.
elsparkodiablo · 2 points · Posted at 19:32:35 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Japan has no guns but 1.5x the suicide rate of the US. South Korea has no guns and has double the suicide rate of the US. If guns were the cause of suicides, why isn't the US leading them per capita in overall suicide rates?
Hemingwavy · 2 points · Posted at 01:32:29 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
elsparkodiablo · 2 points · Posted at 01:35:18 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
So guns aren't the culprit, culture is. Thanks fam, might be the reason the US has so much murder too
Hemingwavy · 0 points · Posted at 01:47:01 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
Man at least Spiderman got superpowers out of his accident. You just got stupid.
elsparkodiablo · 2 points · Posted at 02:05:58 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
Except we don't have a uniquely high suicide rate. Japan without guns has 1.5x our suicide rate. South Korea, without guns, has 2x our suicide rate. Belgium, with heavy gun control, has 1.33 our suicide rate. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate
Clearly it's not the guns. It's something else. BTW strict gun control in Mexico hasn't reduced their homicide rate, and complete prohibition in Brazil & Venezuela hasn't done much to reduce their frightening murder rates either. Heck, in Venezuela the cops were getting murdered by crooks so they could steal their firearms.
A smart person could draw a parallel to the utter ineffectiveness of the War on Drugs when it comes to banning things from a populace, but I won't strain you.
2slow3me · 10 points · Posted at 03:36:39 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes, it does. See Australia as exibit A.
spriddler · -5 points · Posted at 06:30:04 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Australia saw the continuation of a pre-existing downward trend in murders. There is nothing particularly convincing about that case.
AllTheBreads · 5 points · Posted at 09:03:44 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
We had also had a massive mass shooting at Port Arthur in the 90s. Some 36 people died. We thought that was enough of a reason to implement strict gun controls. And we did. And shit like that hasn't happened since.
spriddler · 3 points · Posted at 13:34:39 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Lucky for you. The Monash University shooting, the Sydney cafe hostage crisis or more recently the Melbourne siege all could have been much worse but for dumb luck.
Shotgun_Sentinel · 1 points · Posted at 22:39:34 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Thats false you have had massacres since then. They just use fire and knives.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 10:56:29 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
spriddler · 3 points · Posted at 13:21:56 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
No it did not. That 50% decline started years before the 96 ban. Our gun homicide rate also dropped by 50% over a similar period and without any draconian laws. There is just no good reason to attribute the continuation of a pre-existing trend to the ban.
Taking away a preferred suicide method on the other hand does seem to have a noticeable effect at least initially until different methods become the new ideal methods. It happened in the UK when they changed the natural gas mixture in order to make putting your head in a gas oven not such an easy way to go. Whether those drops are durable though is still a very open question. Australia's suicide rate is back up close to where the US is and approaching pre ban norms.
SteveD88 · 2 points · Posted at 12:14:00 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
June 2017 London Bridge attack - three men drove a van into pedestrians and then attacked people with knives. 8 dead, 48 wounded.
June 2016 Orlando nightclub attack - one guy buys a semi automatic rifle and pistol, and then a week later walks into a nightclub and starts shooting. 49 dead, 58 wounded.
That is the difference that easy access to firearms can make. You might not stop evil from doing evil, but you can drastically reduce the harm caused.
[deleted] · 27 points · Posted at 15:33:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[removed]
[deleted] · 24 points · Posted at 17:53:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In countries with gun control people don't kill people as much. By giving them the gun, you are giving them the option to kill people. This skyrockets second degree murder.
McDonald's doesn't directly make people fat, but it definitely is a leading cause to obesity.
[deleted] · 6 points · Posted at 19:23:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No, still gonna go with shitty life choices make you fat.
Ref: I'm a fatty mcfatterson.
tubbinsxd · 4 points · Posted at 18:58:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I respect your arguments and using logic to make valid points, but I still believe that the problem is rooted in the people using these weapons. The only way to true peace in this world is getting people to the point of choosing the right thing to do, instead of taking away the wrong entirely.
evn0 · 7 points · Posted at 19:19:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Agreed, but that's obviously naievely impossible. So then, as a problem solver you approach the next best and most feasible option.
tubbinsxd · -1 points · Posted at 19:21:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
At the same time, we are taking away defense options from good willed people, only using such objects as defense apparatus.
[deleted] · 6 points · Posted at 21:32:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The problem with that is most people fall into the grey area. Under the right(or wrong) circumstances, they can commit murder which they will regret later. Good willed people can do wrong if enough things push them over the edge.
In my opinion there should be a very strict course and test in getting a gun, and renewing it yearly or every second year.
evn0 · 1 points · Posted at 19:25:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Any significant change in policy will temporarily disrupt some groups. Change inherently comes with overhead. It's about long term gains (no longer even needing a gun to "level the playing field" because it's level without them), not short term.
The_Masterbolt · -2 points · Posted at 19:40:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So you think criminals and law abiding citizens alike are just gonna give up their guns? Or are you advocating letting the military go door to door and disarm the populace?
evn0 · 5 points · Posted at 19:46:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Did I ever once propose a specific solution? As I stated in a different comment:
I don't think we're in a good place where we can just disarm the populace. But by more comprehensive national vetting for gun purchasers/owners, closing loopholes for private sales and inherited heirlooms, and incentivizing willing disarmament, I do think we could start down the path. Do I think that in your or my lifetime America could become a gun free and less violent country? No. Full stop. But I do think we can start a foundation that does enable people 1-3 generations away to have that added safety. Hence, as I mentioned, we need to be thinking of this issue longer term and not cycle-to-cycle.
aidan2784 · 1 points · Posted at 18:59:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think it would be pretty hard for somebody to kill a gun...
DelicateWhiteMen · -2 points · Posted at 20:42:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Is that why homicide is so much higher in the US than any other western country (you know, countries with gun control)?
redblue949 · 50 points · Posted at 15:07:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Knives are used to kill people. If we have knife control, we will save lives. If you don't support me you don't care about people dying.
madia_leva · 37 points · Posted at 17:25:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
As a matter of fact, in many countries it's illegal to carry (large enough) knifes with you. And it makes sense. It saves lives, same as with guns. And that's a fact.
Another question is whether some or most people prefer to have the freedom to carry them despite this fact. That's called an opinion and everybody is entitled to have their own. And we should be able to defend our opinions and respect the opinions of others in a civilised way. That's called democracy.
But negating obvious facts and insulting instead of debating seems to be perfectly fine now, even encouraged. So, hey, let's dispute facts instead of discussing what tradeoffs we chose as a society. Yeah.
redblue949 · -15 points · Posted at 17:30:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I see why people would not be ok with private ownership with guns. However I have a problem with them saying that we dont care if people die.
States with higher gun ownership have lower crime rates. Guns place women on equal footing as a man in terms of defense. When someone uses a gun for murder its a side-effect of a problem, the gun is just the tool.
daneoid · 22 points · Posted at 17:56:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
We have no guns in Australia but have a murder rate 5 times lower than the U.S.
Apocashitstorm · 1 points · Posted at 07:28:28 on August 19, 2017 · (Permalink)
They also have a pretty bad rape problem.
spriddler · -4 points · Posted at 21:33:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And you did before your ban too. What's your point?
redblue949 · -11 points · Posted at 17:59:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You also have a smaller, homogenous population with less income disparity.
Jeveran · 20 points · Posted at 21:20:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well, you're right one-third of the time, anyway.
quiet_earp · 45 points · Posted at 15:21:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Assuming that someone who shoots another person to death would be just as likely to stab that person to death is incorrect. Stabbing is extremely personal, and involves a much higher level of physical engagement than shooting does. Simply put, guns do kill people, mainly because of how easy they make it to do so.
Throne-Eins · 39 points · Posted at 15:49:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Exactly. When you stab someone, you're on top of them, they're fighting back, and it's usually a prolonged struggle. There's a lot of emotion involved - rage, jealousy, betrayal, whatever is motivating the murder. Your victim also has a chance of overpowering and maybe killing you. You'll be a bloody mess afterward, which will make you easy to apprehend. Cleaning up a crime scene is much harder than people think.
But with guns, all of that is removed. There's no emotion, there's no struggle, and unless your victim also has a gun, they can't fight back. And you can quickly run away and be long gone by the time cops show up. Everything is detached, and it's much easier to kill someone when you don't have to lay a finger on them. Pull that little trigger and that's it.
You can kill someone with pretty much anything, but we can't pretend that guns aren't the easiest method.
redblue949 · 4 points · Posted at 18:15:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think you should go ask someone who has actually pulled the trigger to see how "detached" they were
TGU4LYF · 23 points · Posted at 07:06:18 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
they'll certainly be more detached than someone who had to stab the life out of someone, which is the point.
[deleted] · 6 points · Posted at 06:56:38 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Spooky2000 · 1 points · Posted at 11:59:01 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Have been used in like 3 crimes since 1934...
When you throw out statistics that have no base in reality. Get some actual facts before arguing your point.
greenking2000 · 11 points · Posted at 18:10:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The UK had knife control and gun control
We seem to do quite well
Apocashitstorm · 1 points · Posted at 07:33:01 on August 19, 2017 · (Permalink)
How do women and children fare in the UK with regards to their safety?
I'm a woman, I don't own a gun, but I have used "I have a gun" (bluff) and it actually worked in stopping an attacker. I have also used pepper spray (illegal in the UK) to defend myself.
greenking2000 · 1 points · Posted at 09:51:13 on August 19, 2017 · (Permalink)
I can't find any statics for the UK or US about this so I have no idea
I can find domestic violence but that's not really the same as what you said.
Apocashitstorm · 1 points · Posted at 10:04:38 on August 19, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well if you have an opinion on doing well, maybe you should research that.
Kind of is the same.
Here I can do at least the US side of things:
Men more likely use a gun to kill a stranger than a partner:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1635092
However 54% of partner murders (male killing a female he is intimate with) are by a handgun:
https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/guns-crime/reports/2014/06/18/91998/women-under-the-gun/
However strangulation is also a major form of homcide and also a major indicator of future homicide risk:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2573025/
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-act-violence/201703/strangulation-and-domestic-violence-murders
https://www.strangulationtraininginstitute.com/life-and-death-in-your-hands-strangulation-more-common-in-domestic-abuse-cases/
So basically, if you've gotten to the point where the man is strangling the woman, her chances of being murdered in the future by any means go up astronomically.
But this is just the US mind you.
redblue949 · -11 points · Posted at 18:18:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Your truck drivers are doing quite well too.......
Flash_hsalF · 5 points · Posted at 15:27:56 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
You don't really want to get into that kind of a fight with anyone if you're an American.... Obesity, Healthcare, School Shootings, Trump, Nazis...
KingOfTheP4s · -1 points · Posted at 05:55:51 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
UK has a higher obesity rate and NHS has 4x the death rate of the US healthcare system
Flash_hsalF · 1 points · Posted at 06:02:19 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
You're an idiot
KingOfTheP4s · -2 points · Posted at 06:03:48 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
That is a terrific retort
The_Masterbolt · -19 points · Posted at 19:44:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Lol, yes, the most surveilled populace in the world is doing "great"
greenking2000 · 15 points · Posted at 19:45:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Mostly private security cameras and as I didn't use the word "great"
/r/unnecessaryquotations
Flash_hsalF · 2 points · Posted at 15:25:49 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
And you're the "idiot"
Vyrmayn_Gothryn · 13 points · Posted at 18:39:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When Britain made guns mostly illegal or very difficult to get, gun murders, mostly, disappeared. Other murders pretty much stayed at the same rate. Guns put physical and psychological distance between you and what you are attacking, so in many cases, no gun means no murder.
spriddler · 14 points · Posted at 21:33:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well that's not close to true. Gun murders and overall offenses actually spiked quite a bit in the years after the ban
http://www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/sn01940.pdf
MILLANDSON · 2 points · Posted at 16:53:56 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
However, nowadays, we have less than 60 gun deaths a year, in a country of over 60 million people.
Meanwhile, in California alone in 2015, when it had a population of 39 million, had 3095 gun-related deaths.
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/firearm_mortality/firearm.htm
spriddler · 1 points · Posted at 15:41:00 on August 18, 2017 · (Permalink)
Australia never had much of a problem with firearm violence in the first place though. Yes they have seen the continuation of a long downward trend in their murder rate. Perhaps the 97 confiscation accelerated that a bit, but it is impossible to say with certainty.
Australia did see a substantial drop in their suicide rate, but that seems to have been temporary as it has increased 20% over the last decade.
Apocashitstorm · 1 points · Posted at 07:33:47 on August 19, 2017 · (Permalink)
Interesting you say California, because they have some of the strictest gun laws, and have very high rates of organized crime.
Vyrmayn_Gothryn · 4 points · Posted at 23:10:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's really interesting. My comment was from research I did a couple years ago, so I'm not entirely sure where I got my information from. Thanks, that's very good to know. I guess violence must be cultural, considering how in Finland for example, most people own a gun, but murders of all kinds are fairly low. Too much for my small mind to consider.
spriddler · 8 points · Posted at 00:51:02 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Don't worry. It is indeed a complex issue. Even the greatest human minds don't do complexity well at all.
[deleted] · -1 points · Posted at 12:06:11 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Vyrmayn_Gothryn · 3 points · Posted at 23:58:19 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I did this research before I knew Reddit was a thing, so that isn't possible.
REF_YOU_SUCK · 14 points · Posted at 15:28:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Utensils are used to eat food. Food makes people fat. Ban utensils to fix the obesity epidemic!
redblue949 · 2 points · Posted at 15:44:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I mean, obesity kills more people, than people with guns..... If we really want to stop people dying we should have driving control.
mgordon25 · 16 points · Posted at 18:20:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Um...we do have regulations for driving.
redblue949 · 5 points · Posted at 18:36:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes and people still break them all the time. Just because something is illegal doesnt prevent it from happening.
evn0 · 16 points · Posted at 19:21:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But the rate at which those laws are broken is significantly lower than in countries where regulations are lax. You would be insane to say that an Indian or Chinese road is as safe as the average American road, and in this context is an obvious and clear net benefit.
No problem of this nature will ever be fully and permanently solved, but it can be risk managed through policy.
spriddler · 3 points · Posted at 21:24:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And we have regulations for guns: who can buy them, what kinds they can buy, how you can transport them, how you can carry them (or not), how they are stored (in some states), the qualifications needed to carry them in public (most states), etc..
DeafNoEaredMan · 16 points · Posted at 15:14:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Knives are very useful. For cutting and such. A gunshot does not serve many purposes for the average Joe...
cmptrnrd · 26 points · Posted at 15:29:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Unless you live outside of a city
canad1anbacon · 3 points · Posted at 16:04:44 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
You can still get a rifle or shotgun to hunt
WhatDoesTheCatsupSay · 31 points · Posted at 17:49:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It does if you're being robbed.
Jtub · 11 points · Posted at 19:41:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Gun control =/= Take all the guns
WhatDoesTheCatsupSay · 2 points · Posted at 19:46:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Thank you for your input but that statement isn't relevant to this chain of comments. Move up a couple branches and then repeat what you said and you will make more sense.
nick_bleuer76 · 6 points · Posted at 19:53:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The average Joe has a gun where I live. Rural America has the most guns per person, and the lowest murder rates.
[deleted] · 6 points · Posted at 18:24:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is a false equivalency.
Knives have useful purposes other than to kill things. Guns do not.
You cannot do anything productive with a gun; it's only use is to destroy something else. Knives and blades can prepare food, fashion furniture, shave, create art.
Guns can only put a hole into something.
Now, I'm not against people using guns for sport or for hunting. But I think it should be VERY hard to get a gun, because it is VERY easy to make a deadly mistake with a gun. There's plenty of responsible gun owners out there who are careful and responsible with their weapons. They can keep their guns. But we should make it VERY hard for idiots and irresponsible people to get guns.
redblue949 · 12 points · Posted at 18:29:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Guns are the best tool for self-defense, that is its function. Why should I not use the best tool for self defense availible? Nobody has ever tried to claim that guns arent not best for killing things. The issue is whether the death was rightful or not.
Would you use a fork to eat soup?
[deleted] · 15 points · Posted at 20:56:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Unfortunately guns are not exclusively used for self-defense, so bringing up self-defense as an argument for making them extremely easily accessible is an incomplete argument.
I'm all for having guns in the hands of people whose only intention is to use them for hunting, sport, or self-defense. I think those people should have to go through a LOT to get their hands on those guns, because if they're so invested in having the best tool for self defense (or hunting or sport), they should have the wherewithal and merit to go through extreme vetting.
Have as many guns as you want. I don't care. Just make it hard to get your hands on them.
MrMemes9000 · 2 points · Posted at 03:14:06 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
They already go through an FBI background check when they try to purchase the gun what more do you want?
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 13:22:35 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think you should have to go through weapons training courses and complete a certain number of hours at a range with an instructor before you can go home with a firearm. You should have to pass a test showing that you know how to assemble, dissemble (when applicable, obviously not all guns can be broken down), clean, load, and fire your weapon with reasonable accuracy. You should have to pass a written test demonstrating that you understand your state's laws and federal laws regarding firearm ownership, sales, and use. You should also have to demonstrate that you have proper storage for your weapon (i.e., a safe with a code or key) and that if you have young children, you have a means of ensuring that they cannot get their hands on that gun without your supervision.
Passing a background check is fine, and necessary, but it doesn't mean you're going to be a good gun owner. These sorts of steps would ensure that people who own guns are responsible about it. Lots of gun owners already do everything I described and could pass any test with flying colors.
MrMemes9000 · 1 points · Posted at 17:52:55 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
I understand where you are coming from but that would drastically affect the ability of lower income Americans to access their second amendment rights and could be seen as infringement.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:07:52 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
These things don't have to cost money for the individual. Instructors could be government employees, not private, who offer their services at no cost to an individual. State and federally-operated ranges could be set up and special hours could be established for those who work long/irregular hours. Test and study materials could be accessed at public libraries. Safes could be subsidized if a gun owner can prove they're in financially dire straights.
Either way, the cost argument doesn't really make sense when you think about the expenses necessary for gun ownership; guns and ammunition are not cheap to begin with. In most cases, if one has the extra income necessary to afford to buy, maintain, and use a firearm, they can afford training. Most gun owners go to ranges to use their weapons anyway. In theory, by your logic, the fact that guns cost money at all could be construed as a deprivation of 2nd amendment rights for low-income Americans.
WhatDoesTheCatsupSay · -4 points · Posted at 19:52:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Knives can cut food, cut furniture, cut hair, cut other things to create art. Knives cut, that is their only purpose. What to choose to cut is up to the individual. Guns shoot bullets. That is their only function. What the individual chooses to shoot is up to them. They can shoot animals for food or furniture, can't cut hair with it, you can also use guns for art.
So other than knives being better at cutting hair, what's the difference between the two tools?
[deleted] · 10 points · Posted at 20:51:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The fact that you can't kill a dozen people in 30 seconds with a knife.
WhatDoesTheCatsupSay · -5 points · Posted at 20:56:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Maybe not 30 seconds but here you go.
http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/01/world/asia/china-railway-attack/index.html
[deleted] · 5 points · Posted at 21:41:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm confused as to what you're trying to say. Is your opinion that knives and guns are equally deadly? Linking to that article seems to suggest that you think this one example of a very deadly knife attack means something with regard to guns. It means nothing. 10 men working together with meat cleavers is not the same as one person with an automatic rifle. Imagine if those 10 men had had automatic weapons. Hundreds would have been killed.
WhatDoesTheCatsupSay · -2 points · Posted at 22:00:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You said knives have many different uses. But their only purpose is to cut. What you choose to cut isn't related to the knife itself.
I never compared the lethality of knives and guns. You did. You said you can't kill a dozen people in thirty seconds with a knife, implying that they aren't as deadly. As a response I brought up a situation where there were mass casualties dues to a knife. Sure one knife vs one gun isn't a fair fight but to diminish the dangers of a blade in the hand of someone who means to cause harm is foolish. I pointed out that a knife can cause just as much death as a gun in response to you.
The Bataclan massacre was three people with automatic weapons over the course of two and a half hours and 90 people died. Somehow your math doesn't add up.
[deleted] · 10 points · Posted at 22:28:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So do you have a point in this discussion other than to just act as a contrarian to my point? If you're bringing up things just to argue against me, I don't really care what you have to say. If you have something you're standing for, then please continue--but make it clear what it is that you're here to say other than "I disagree with namename77"
WhatDoesTheCatsupSay · 3 points · Posted at 23:16:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In four years of arguing with random people on Reddit you are the first to call me out for being contrarian. Congratulations, you have my upvote.
[deleted] · 4 points · Posted at 02:01:37 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Fair enough. I'm happy you took the time to challenge me on my beliefs--always good practice to clarify and reconsider why I believe the things I believe.
Upvoted in kind.
Bladesleeper · 6 points · Posted at 22:49:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is ridiculous. The only purpose of a knife is to cut, you say. True enough, after a fashion; but "the only function of a gun is to shoot bullets" is just disingenuous. The only function, or purpose of a gun is to fucking kill - not "shoot bullets". A knife cuts, but generally speaking, it is a tool; a gun is a weapon, period. It has no other uses; and it's a damn sight more efficient at its single purpose than any knife, axe, car, greasy hamburger, alcohol or cigarette you can throw in the discussion as a rhetorical expedient.
So, a knife can cause as much death as a gun? Sure; and hey, there have been cases of entire families poisoned by leaky boilers which, just as your deadly knife example, has fuck all to do with the dangers inherent to widespread gun possession.
You dislike gun control, OK, suit yourself; but perhaps you should try a different approach to rationalising the whole idea.
WhatDoesTheCatsupSay · 0 points · Posted at 23:18:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What else does a gun do other than shoot bullets? If the only function of a firearm is to kill then I should be in jail hundreds of thousands of times over. But I've never killed anyone so that argument is bunk. I'm not against common sense gun control (see what I did there?) but the best argument for it is that guns kill people. Cars kill ten times as many people as guns (not including suicides) yet their utility is justification enough to keep them around?
Bladesleeper · 3 points · Posted at 23:30:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't know if you're trolling, or you just... Don't get it. It's not what it does; it's what its function is. A car's primary function is not to kill. You're using logical fallacies, and they simply don't work.
WhatDoesTheCatsupSay · 1 points · Posted at 23:37:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't get it. A car's primary function isn't to kill people yet an unintentional side effect is death in the realm of 30,000 people per year in America. And everyone is ok with it. A gun's primary function is used 3,000 times per year and that is what people get butthurt about. That is what I don't understand.
The argument of "guns are meant for death" is an emotional one and is easy to tout. My argument of "there are greater threats to life than guns" is based on statistics.
Bladesleeper · 3 points · Posted at 08:35:48 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Again?! Here, let me show you why your car (or whatever) argument is a logical fallacy. Anything can kill people. Vitamins and toothpicks kill people. But do you know what didn't directly kill anyone in the last, oh, 20 years? Nuclear bombs. So why don't we let, say, Iran have their own? I mean, we let them have cars! And before you answer "why, because they could use them to kill thousands" - yes they could, just like some deranged American teenager could use a gun to murder a bunch of his schoolmates. So it seems to me that if we have set up restrictions that make it very, very hard for Iran to become dangerous, it wouldn't be such a bad idea to come up with something similar for the deranged teenager.
Also, for the love of argument: yes, cars kill lots of people. But consider: to be allowed to drive you need a license, and you must wear a seatbelt. How many more would die if anyone could just jump in a car and speed away, no seatbelts, no airbags?
WhatDoesTheCatsupSay · 1 points · Posted at 11:38:03 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Nuclear bombs have killed hundreds of thousands in only two instances of use. That is why we are trying to keep certain countries from having those capabilities. Not a very good analogy. You claim I'm using false equivalence but I'm not. I'm simply stating that guns killing people CANNOT be a valid reason to get rid of them. If guns kill 3000, auto accidents kill 30,000, and alcohol kills 88,000 people per year and you're only focusing on guns, you have a serious misdirection of priorities. And seeing as prohibition was repealed and more people own cars than guns, although there are more guns than cars, I don't see that changing anytime soon.
[deleted] · 7 points · Posted at 23:07:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A knife is 99% of the time used to cut foods, hair, etc.
A gun is used to kill someone else in self defence only 3.5% of the time, if we count all gun homicides excluding suicide. 96.5% of the time, they are used to unlawfully murder another.
And a gun's main purpose is to take someone else's life. A knife's main purpose is not.
arc31 · 4 points · Posted at 19:09:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The only use of guns is to cause harm to humans and animals (very efficiently). Knives have non violent uses and aren't nearly as lethal guns. Apart from that most European countries and even America have knife restrictions. Downvote me all you want but this argument makes no sense.
[deleted] · -12 points · Posted at 15:11:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Wow I mean that's a great argument you got there man. My golly apparently knives are as lethal as guns now. All those child deaths in the US from knives could be stopped with knife control! If only we'd known sooner!
SpencerHayes · 9 points · Posted at 19:37:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I love Reddit. People just downvote you while slowly caressing their guns. You're absolutely right that knives aren't even close to guns when it comes to danger.
Noah__Webster · 7 points · Posted at 19:16:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Anything that presents a choking hazard kills people. If we have choking hazard control, we will save lives. If you don't support me, you don't care about children dying.
SpencerHayes · 6 points · Posted at 19:24:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But we do have choking hazard control...
YourCousinCassidy · 2 points · Posted at 19:29:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ya I always get a background check when I buy plastic bags.
SpencerHayes · 3 points · Posted at 19:35:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And guns don't have warning labels on them, the way potential choking hazards do. Are you seriously saying choking hazards and guns would be effectively regulated the same way? That's fucking stupid. Do you not understand the idea of appropriate regulation? Of fucking course choking hazards don't warrant a background check. They do warrant a label. So, yes we do in fact have choking hazard control.
Now this next part I don't know for certain, but I would not be surprised in the least to find out that regulatory bodies have more pages dedicated to choking hazards than to guns.
YourCousinCassidy · -4 points · Posted at 19:58:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When did I say any of that? I wanted to make a joke by pointing out a difference between the two because everybody has been comparing shit above me. Maybe my humor wasn't as obvious as it should have been. That's on me. Don't assume so much from a single sentence though. You just end up arguing with a strawman.
SpencerHayes · 7 points · Posted at 20:01:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Your only sentence was the implication that choking hazards need a background check. I asked a simple question. Your humor was completely irrelevant to the argument at hand; and if you were only joking you should have said that before continuing to talk out of your ass. I didn't assume anything. I took what you said to the logical extent.
YourCousinCassidy · -7 points · Posted at 20:19:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I didn't imply shit. I pointed out a difference between two things. I didn't say that they should be the same or if it was good/bad that there is a difference. If you didn't think it was funny I get it, but I didn't say the things you're arguing against.
SpencerHayes · 4 points · Posted at 20:20:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Lol ok whatever
fps916 · 5 points · Posted at 21:13:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's about scale. No one thinks we can eliminate all death but we can severely limit the deaths that occur if we get rid of their largest tool. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good
SuperkatTalks · 0 points · Posted at 18:29:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Knife control is a good idea! it doesn't equate to the banning of knives - but there are many countries (the UK, for one) where it is illegal to be wandering about in public with a large knife and no valid reason.
redblue949 · 2 points · Posted at 18:32:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Do you really think someone who wants to use a large knife (or a gun) is going to think "well I guess since its illegal to use outside the house I wont go over and stab (or shoot) this person"
Plus you can make your own knife at home.
SuperkatTalks · 7 points · Posted at 19:22:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well no, but since the law makes it legal to arrest them on their way, it does obviously help.
I seriously doubt that most knife crimes are premeditated in this way. People carrying knives around are using them when provoked, in gang violence etc. If you make it problematic for large knives to be carried around without the risk of arrest, you do lessen the likelihood of knife crime.
Can't really see the advantage of making your own knife - nobody is suggesting that sales of knives should be banned...
snoopinabout · 1 points · Posted at 18:10:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Can you reload a gun and kill people with from 50 yards away multiple times within a minute?
spriddler · 6 points · Posted at 21:10:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So where has strict gun control demonstrably curtailed a substantial problem with gun violence... ever??? Naming places that never had a substantial problem with gun violence even when they had liberal gun laws like Australia or Great Britain doesn't count.
[deleted] · 9 points · Posted at 14:59:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah I mean look more guns means more people will die. You can defend your 2nd amendment rights to the teeth but you have to accept that fact.
Shotgun_Sentinel · 0 points · Posted at 23:03:45 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Thats just false, Switzerland has more guns than many other European countries, yet they have far fewer homicides and suicides than those countries. The US has way more guns than any other country yet we aren't leading in murders , and have half of the world ahead of us.
XdsXc · 1 points · Posted at 12:33:58 on August 20, 2017 · (Permalink)
Switzerland has 4x less guns per capita than the us. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country#Notes_and_references
Shotgun_Sentinel · 1 points · Posted at 19:11:48 on August 20, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes, but they still have way more than their neighbors, while also being safer than their neighbors.
Mariothemaster245 · 8 points · Posted at 15:47:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Why do liberals believe banning guns stops gun usage but banning abortions doesn't stop abortion?
cool_hand_luke · 5 points · Posted at 01:55:30 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Why would anyone need to stop abortion? Gun control saves lives, as does legal abortion.
If you're against gun control and against abortion, you're at least consistent in your view that human lives are not important.
Shotgun_Sentinel · 3 points · Posted at 22:41:40 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
How about you actually address his point.
cool_hand_luke · -1 points · Posted at 01:46:16 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
Thanks for chiming in, but the point was addressed.
Shotgun_Sentinel · 6 points · Posted at 02:15:38 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
You didn't address his point, you went off on a talking point tangent. You can be pro-gun and pro-choice, while understand both arguments that banning those things doesn't really achieve anything close to abolition of those things.
cool_hand_luke · -1 points · Posted at 02:29:47 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's your point, which you wanted to get out in the first place. However wrong they might be, you're allowed to just say it without feeling the need to piggyback off of anything else.
Shotgun_Sentinel · 5 points · Posted at 03:17:06 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
No, it was also his point, and that is obvious if you aren't so political you can't admit you are wrong.
cool_hand_luke · 2 points · Posted at 03:23:54 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
You need an editor.
Shotgun_Sentinel · 6 points · Posted at 03:32:59 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't, you simply can't admit that you are just being political and disingenuous right now. The fact is you can't say abortion shouldn't be made illegal because then they will just do back alley abortions, it wont even stop them. The n act like gun control will make guns go away.
He addressed your cognitive dissonance and you deflected with some bullshit talking point and virtue signalling.
cool_hand_luke · 2 points · Posted at 03:49:17 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
Maybe try someone who gives a shit what a gun nut thinks about gun control. I'm interested in having a discussion with someone who lives in reality - the reality that the rest of the world lives in.
Good luck in your search for a rube that will reinforce your previously held beliefs and pat you on the back for telling the truth. Might I suggest r/guns, r/conservative, r/conspiracy, or r/coontown? You'll find plenty in common with the fine folk who roam those parts.
Good luck. I wish you the best.
Shotgun_Sentinel · 3 points · Posted at 04:04:55 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
Wow, so you talk about nuts and reality yet you jump off the deep end when a person challenges your conflicting thought processes.
Lol what, why do you think I am racist or a conspiracy nut? Just because I don't think gun control actually works, just like banning abortion doesn't work?
cool_hand_luke · 1 points · Posted at 04:14:58 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
Don't feel the need to restrict yourself to my suggestions. I just picked the ones that espouse the same outlook on guns as you do. The fact that they're full of other shit views is just coincidental.
Good luck.
Shotgun_Sentinel · 4 points · Posted at 04:42:11 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
You think I do this for vindication when really I just do it to let people know how silly your ideas are.
cool_hand_luke · 1 points · Posted at 04:54:13 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
Liberal tears, amirite?
You can always start your own sub, then the world will truly know how awful my world views are.
[deleted] · -1 points · Posted at 04:56:16 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
[removed]
sweet_chin_music · 4 points · Posted at 05:47:02 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
Maybe /u/cool_hand_luke will have the balls to not delete his comments every time someone disagrees with him.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 14:46:31 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
[removed]
Icc0ld · 1 points · Posted at 21:48:15 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
I didn't link to this thread
And btw, here it what it looked like when you posted it
This is what it looks like now
Suddenly your target is controversial and every recent comment by him is negative while yours are all positive in what was a dead thread. It so transparent. Yet I'm brigading by pointing out your obvious bullshit.
Shotgun_Sentinel · 3 points · Posted at 18:41:05 on August 17, 2017 · (Permalink)
The minute you posted there were more downvotes than there was upvotes. That may have changed, but you made it that way.
Icc0ld · 0 points · Posted at 19:48:05 on August 17, 2017 · (Permalink)
So I down voted myself? Lol you do know how reddit works right?
4775795f4d616e · 0 points · Posted at 08:55:35 on August 17, 2017 · (Permalink)
Do you actually fucking exist, mate? Is this a real person's actual thought process? God, I hope you're trolling.
[deleted] · 5 points · Posted at 20:33:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Wow that's an incredibly useless comparison. The latter is something people desperately need if they're not prepared for a pregnancy or a child. The former is something people statistically do NOT need. Showing data on Chicago which has gun control is useless if neighboring cities don't have he same laws.
TheWiredWorld · -5 points · Posted at 14:38:20 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Translation: you disagree so they're an evil nazi
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 16:47:59 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
lol you've become the thing you mock. You dislike what I wrote so your response was a jab that had nothing to do with the above.
arc31 · 2 points · Posted at 12:22:16 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
It would probably decrease abortion rates as many women might not want to risk death but the main reason I am pro choice is because the rights of an adult is worth more than an unborn child.
y0y · 1 points · Posted at 18:28:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It would be very difficult to ban guns in the US, but it has been done in other countries and gun usage in those countries is now near-zero.
Abortions have been banned before in the US and illegal abortions continued to happen, regardless.
So um.. reality?
Noah__Webster · 6 points · Posted at 19:20:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You don't think that illegal guns would continue to be owned with all the guns that are already in the country?
nybx4life · 5 points · Posted at 19:22:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Considering people are willing to 3D-print their firearms, I'm sure this will continue.
Noah__Webster · 4 points · Posted at 19:23:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Right? Even without 3D printing (since it still is stupidly expensive right?) it wouldn't work.
Zreaz · 3 points · Posted at 20:25:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
3D printing in general is actually getting pretty damn cheap (relatively of course). 3D printing a working gun that won't blow up though? Yea, still expensive.
nybx4life · 2 points · Posted at 19:29:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Personally, I believe the issue is that the US doesn't have uniform gun laws that apply the same way throughout all 50 states. It's easier to acquire firearms legally in some states compared to others, and that could lead to gun smuggling.
I'm unsure what's the federal minimum when it comes to gun laws tbh, so I can't tell if it's just the lack of law, or lack of enforcement.
evn0 · 1 points · Posted at 19:24:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Did you miss the first sentence of their comment? Now that we've come this far it's near impossible to turn the wheels back, obviously. But had things panned out differently and we were in a space where guns could effectively be removed, then gun crime would all but cease.
y0y · 0 points · Posted at 19:23:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I do. That's why I say it'd be very difficult in America. But reality shows us that it can happen.
Noah__Webster · 5 points · Posted at 19:25:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You realize that at that point only people who are willing to own a gun illegally would have them, right? So murder would probably only decrease minimally, and actual innocent people wouldn't have them as an outlet for self-defense?
y0y · 1 points · Posted at 19:28:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'll take actual fact from observed events in other countries over your conjecture.
I also don't support banning guns so I don't care to argue the semantics. I just believe it is possible because it has been proven so in other countries.
Flash_hsalF · 1 points · Posted at 15:31:28 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
You sir, are retarded.
ElliottPolin · 3 points · Posted at 16:28:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
because everyone who disagrees with you believes that murder is ok. Is there not a single different perspective they could be coming from? I think you need to read some of the the comments about polarization.
OldDemon · 2 points · Posted at 18:07:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Gun control would work if it weren't so easy to get guns. So many people have guns now that if you try to take them away from the people, only the bad guys would still have them, leaving the innocent people as easy targets. Since guns are so engrained into the public now, getting rid of them or trying to take full control is impossible. It's best to let people defend themselves
Semlohwerd · 2 points · Posted at 19:56:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is more of a 50% issue than a 90% issue. Depends on where you live, of course.
As a gun owner and general supporter of firearms I do agree that gun control is a good thing. My state has some laws going through the state senate that could legalize open and concealed carry without a permit of any kind. This is pretty worrysome to me.
The concealed weapons permit test in my state requires a shooting test where you have to land 35/50 shots on target from various ranges.Most people pass with somewhere between 45-50 shots. If you have any experience with guns it's pretty easy to pass with 50/50. When I took my test the woman beside me failed, not just a small failure of 34/50 either.
At 5yds (the first shooting distance) she was missing. She was shooting the floor, a good 5 ft below the target.
That woman should not have a license to carry a firearm. She was so scared of the gun she couldn't even use it properly in a controlled situation. I'd hate to see her try to fire at an assailant in a stressful situation.
Of course that's the discussion around who should be able to carry a gun, I have a feeling you're saying gun control in a much stricter sense.
What's your opinion on the issue? Should we be allowed to own guns? How difficult should it be to purchase a gun? How regulated should the ownership of firearms be? Interested to hear your thoughts.
Apocashitstorm · 1 points · Posted at 07:36:18 on August 19, 2017 · (Permalink)
I agree with this comment. I am pro-gun but I do believe in some gun control (namely closing loopholes, including classes, and banning offenders.)
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 20:30:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Holy shit people are stupid. -27? Has anyone actually looked at the data here? OP is unquestionably right.
CompDuLac · 4 points · Posted at 18:21:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You need to visit urban Chicago, idiot.
TheNaughtyMonkey · 5 points · Posted at 17:24:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No, it isn't. What you are saying is very naive, objectively untrue, and needlessly antagonistic.
You are not a better person than gun owners, in any way. In fact, as they exercise responsibility every day, I suspect that they are better people than you.
UneasyInsider · 3 points · Posted at 18:28:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You're saying if you buy a gun and can resist the urge to start murdering people, then you're a better person, as you put it, than someone who doesn't own one?
How stupid can you get?
TheNaughtyMonkey · 5 points · Posted at 19:35:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes, I am.
"The urge to start murdering people?" No, that is not something that non-mentally ill people have. The word you were looking for is "responsibility."
As Billy Bragg said, "Virtue never tested is no virtue at all."
DoctorMyEyes_ · 2 points · Posted at 22:21:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I agree with the sentiment, but like any issue, it's not that cut and dry.
Though, I happen to be a gun owner who is all for tighter restrictions, background checks, some kind of mental health check, etc. I certainly don't have all of the answers or a finely tuned plan to be implemented, but I agree, strict control would save lives.
Obligatory Jim Jeffreries
Shotgun_Sentinel · 1 points · Posted at 22:29:44 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
It hasn't worked for Brazil, Russia, Jamaica, or Venezuela. If the policy is that good it should work no matter what.
The true correlation is that people with a better standard of living are less likely to die. The US has seen its standard of living slip in the last 10 years or so.
icedesparten · 1 points · Posted at 23:08:24 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Realistically it only chances the weapon used. There hasn't been a country that had an overall reduction in homicide rate directly attributable to gun control. Overall homicide rates were dropping in 1st world countries for years prior to gun control implementation, and the rate of decline wasn't altered in any way in any of the affected countries.
Doctor_Buttsac · 1 points · Posted at 02:37:39 on August 17, 2017 · (Permalink)
Now I know I'm a little late to the party, but I'd like to just ask if you're just talking about stricter rules on gun control or just flat out banning guns?
[deleted] · -6 points · Posted at 15:01:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
thesite94 · 18 points · Posted at 15:35:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No one is convinced because gun control doesn't work. Look at places like Chicago, California and New York. All of them have extremely restrictive gun laws, forcing law abiding citizens to forego owning a weapon, yet criminals are more than able to procure high-caliber firearms. All gun control does is take away people's right to defend themselves.
[deleted] · 4 points · Posted at 20:34:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Their neighboring cities don't have those laws. Makes it pretty obviously useless. Gun control =\= taking away your guns, regardless of what Hannity tells you.
MrMemes9000 · 0 points · Posted at 03:17:19 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
Why don't those neighboring cities have the same levels of violence?
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 03:21:20 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
Far less population density for starters. Real estate prices as a result. I could really go on.
MrMemes9000 · 0 points · Posted at 04:02:34 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
Go on please
[deleted] · 4 points · Posted at 15:55:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Look at examples where entire countries have successfully implemented gun control like Australia and the UK. They are much better examples then states having gun controls which can be circumvented by taking a short drive.
spriddler · 3 points · Posted at 22:11:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Australia and the UK never had a substantial problem with gun violence and what small problems they did have have not gone away...
thesite94 · 7 points · Posted at 16:00:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Gun control in the UK is pretty easy since, again, guns weren't a huge problem there in the first place. The difference most of these places have is that rights in many of these nations are not 'God given' and are in the hands of the state, i.e why the massive surveillance state exists in the UK and why government intrusion is largely able to happen as rights are not inherently given.
Again, most states will not sell you guns with an out of state license so this point really doesn't work anymore. Many loopholes have been closed in recent years
[deleted] · 7 points · Posted at 16:03:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So what about Australia, which has large rural areas and a major history with guns, due to a massive presence of farming and small towns, and yet was able to successfully implement gun control and eradicate all mass shootings since 1997. Is that not a comparable situation to America?
Zreaz · 3 points · Posted at 20:35:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Don't think either of those countries were created with their second rule being "you can own guns and the government can not tell you that you can't"
[deleted] · -6 points · Posted at 15:42:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
thesite94 · 3 points · Posted at 15:53:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Australia and the UK are not viable examples in your scenario. These countries never really had a frontier culture like the US has had as almost all of the population in confined to a few major cities. Up until the early 20th century, many people literally lived in the wilderness and had to fend for themselves.
Try going to a Indiana with an Illinois ID and try buying a gun and tell me how that goes, many states will not sell you guns with an out of state license.
Most of these countries never really had guns in the first place so it would be pretty easy to regulate against something that doesn't really exist. Your argument is ignoring lots of important contexts that differentiate the US and other countries
poo-boys-united · 4 points · Posted at 15:58:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ok, that's understandable. But if there is no other country comparable to the US in this regard then examine the current state of affairs. Gun control is not strict across the nation and gun deaths are consistently high.The only thing that hasn't been tested is strict gun control across the board. I just can't believe that people really want guns to defend themselves rather than because they like them.
ws_volt · 3 points · Posted at 16:07:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Youre comparing two island nations of much smaller populations without a cultural history of guns to the US which borders a country notorious for smuggling illicit goods into said country.
WhatDoesTheCatsupSay · 4 points · Posted at 17:56:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Couldn't you argue we are already flooded? Gun laws have relaxed in the last decade yet gun crime has declined since the 90s. Unless they are giving them away I can't imagine there being more guns in America than there are. Meaning the availability, not the actual number.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 15:13:08 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's not the point. I don't think we need guns to prevent crime, although the stats on that could be argued. We need the right to guns because we need the right to protect ourselves from government tyranny. If you don't think government tyranny is a problem then pick up a history book.
warpg8 · -1 points · Posted at 19:18:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Saying strict gun control saves lives is like saying that strict abstinence-only education prevents pregnancy or strict drug laws prevent drug addiction.
Background checks and a 3 day waiting period are totally appropriate. Yes, we need to do away with the loopholes. But beyond that, gun violence isn't a gun problem, it's a mental health problem, just like drug addiction isn't a drug problem, it's a health problem, just like teen pregnancy isn't a sex problem, it's a health problem.
If quality mental healthcare were available to everyone (say, via Medicare for All), then we'd be handling the source of the issue instead of the symptom.
Yo_mamas_dildo · 0 points · Posted at 15:48:21 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Nobody wants to face the fact that guns are a tool for evil.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 02:08:39 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Flash_hsalF · 1 points · Posted at 15:33:07 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah that would be great if that's how real life worked. As the US shows, it doesn't work like that.
Buy_ · 0 points · Posted at 21:41:15 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Maybe that's true if you don't already have 300 million+ guns in circulation
hoopskid123 · 0 points · Posted at 02:14:00 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
Straw man af
Hellguin · 19 points · Posted at 15:04:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Racism is wrong
Name_Checker_Outer · 2 points · Posted at 19:41:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
More than 90% of people know this. You're reading about a very small group of people and acting like they're the majority.
screenwriterjohn · 4 points · Posted at 16:18:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What is racism? Good luck with that.
TheNaughtyMonkey · -11 points · Posted at 17:25:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Race is an artificial construct.
Hellguin · 11 points · Posted at 17:28:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Judging someone because their body produces more/less melanin based on where their family is from is just downright wrong.
TheNaughtyMonkey · 9 points · Posted at 17:34:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Why not just say that prejudice is wrong?
Hellguin · -2 points · Posted at 17:41:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Why? Because all racism is bad, but not all predjudice is bad.
Some prejudices are positive while others are negative.
TheNaughtyMonkey · 2 points · Posted at 17:46:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Racism is literally pre-judging someone. If pre-judging is bad, it is always bad.
Hellguin · 3 points · Posted at 17:51:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No, Pre-Judging someone isn't always wrong, there is a positive form.
When you discriminate against someone (against skin is racism, gender is sexism, etc...)
TheNaughtyMonkey · 0 points · Posted at 17:55:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Wait a second, now you are talking about discrimination.
Different issue. Of course we discriminate. I would not talk to someone who is mentally reatrded in the same way I would talk to a college graduate.
Prejudice means treating people not as who they personally are, but as you would treat the group to which you think they belong. Expecting all Asians to be good at math is just as bad as expecting all black people to be good at basketball.
Hellguin · 1 points · Posted at 17:58:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Why don't you read the article I linked before commenting.
TheNaughtyMonkey · 1 points · Posted at 18:07:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I did. I found it irrelevant, other than saying that treating everyone nicely is nice.
Did you read it?
yeti_beard · 13 points · Posted at 14:35:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Percentages. There is no 110%. You can however turn it up to eleven, that scale is relative.
Edit: I mean in terms of "Give it 110%" motivational nonsense. Not comparison or increase.
joculator · 17 points · Posted at 14:55:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You can't have all of an original value plus 1/10th more?
poo-boys-united · 4 points · Posted at 15:03:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
yes you can. In terms of, for example, effort you can't give 110%. You can only give 100% of what you have.
In terms of values, if $100 increased by 110% it would be worth $210.
yeti_beard · 2 points · Posted at 15:59:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Right, I was thinking of the "Give it a 110%" motivational nonsense that is in fact meaningless.
poo-boys-united · 2 points · Posted at 16:00:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
agreed.
Azurephoenix99 · 2 points · Posted at 16:05:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You could give 110% if the other 10% was from another person.
It's really amazing what slave labor can do these days.
poo-boys-united · 3 points · Posted at 16:09:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
if my slave is only giving me 10% effort he's in for a fucking whipping
Chadilac_Killz · 1 points · Posted at 18:01:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What if I am giving it all I got and in the process I learn even more and start applying what I learned right away. Wouldn't that be more than my 100% now?
poo-boys-united · 1 points · Posted at 18:06:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
you would still be giving 100% of your effort. However your effort could be of a value that is 10% greater than it was at the beginning. Which would mean that you are giving 110% of effort compared to your original effort. However you are still giving 100% of what you are capable of giving.
poo-boys-united · 7 points · Posted at 15:02:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
if something increases by 200% it becomes 3 times it's original value.
cmptrnrd · 3 points · Posted at 15:26:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
https://www.xkcd.com/670/
RordonGamsey2 · 1 points · Posted at 16:05:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Swear to god these people are time travelers
AgentElman · 3 points · Posted at 16:13:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Of course there is 110%. If you give someone $10 one day and give them $1.10 the next day, on the second day you gave them 110%.
Percentages are all relative.
yeti_beard · 1 points · Posted at 16:15:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yup, had to clarify the context. Percentages are relative unless you are talking about something that is limited, your effort, ability, how much I care about this thread, etc.
AgentElman · 3 points · Posted at 16:32:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What if those are changeable?
I have the flu and do work. Then I get healthy and do work. I can do more work when I am healthy.
yeti_beard · 2 points · Posted at 16:38:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Your capacity to work would be 100%, when you aren't doing your best it would be less than 100%. If you get better and more productive, and work at capacity you are still working at 100%.
However if you are measuring someone's output, that's different. Then they might produce 10% more or even 110% more, but their effort or ability to work would still not exceed 100%.
AgentElman · 1 points · Posted at 16:47:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I will accept that distinction.
chadsexytime · 2 points · Posted at 15:35:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I had to explain to a friend that his stereo was not "twice as loud as mine" because his went to 100 while mine went to 50.
wrong_assumption · 2 points · Posted at 18:24:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Wow. Don't let him reproduce.
yeti_beard · 1 points · Posted at 15:59:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Duh! Simple math. /s
Wolf_Smith · 2 points · Posted at 15:10:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Computer repair
Derkerock · 2 points · Posted at 15:20:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Keep right unless you intend to pass.
Moped_Thief · 2 points · Posted at 15:20:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Marginal income tax system.
IAmNotScottBakula · 2 points · Posted at 15:27:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The two party system in the US comes as a result of our election laws, not the media, not the fact that third parties aren't allowed into debates, not the lack of ranked choice voting, or any of the other explanations that third party advocates tend to focus on. As long as we have a winner takes all system (where the candidate with the most votes receives all of the electoral votes, or the congressional seat up for election), there are strong incentives for a two party system. If you want a viable third party in the US, push for states to divide up their electoral votes and House seats based on the proportion of the vote in the state that each party receives. The other options will have little to no impact.
rob5i · 2 points · Posted at 15:31:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In a traffic jam it's incredibly ignorant to be right on bumper of the car in front of you. You need to relax and coast not constantly pounding on the accelerator and brakes.
Shoelucky · 2 points · Posted at 15:32:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This might be a long shot - but I don't think many people can explain how we know the earth is round. I had my first run in with a flat earther who was moderately good at debate. Now I'm no science major but with only a few simple observations I was able to really have him second guessing the whole flat earth thing. Apparently no one else had taken the time explain some basics to him.
Bonus points - when debating a flat earther - don't use facts they already reject as false, that's not going to help. Use things that are easily explained or observed. Also - don't belittle, or condescend - be friendly and help them.
Guy_In_Florida · 2 points · Posted at 15:36:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So there seriously are people that believe this? I can understand people thinking the moon landing was faked, although they are whacked. But the flat earth thing is real? Why would they think this. I would hate to hear the words that would come out of their mouth.
Shoelucky · 2 points · Posted at 15:49:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yea, I recently joined a new crew at work and two of fifteen were avid flat earthers. It was really fascinating (in a scary kind of way) hearing them out. Their theories on what is actually going on are fun to hear, and some of the points they make are even plausible, but only for a second until you actually start contemplating them. I think that's why they're gaining such momentum - people don't stop to think about it. It SOUNDS like it could actually be real and the flat earthers start throwing math formulas and other pseudo facts around - people just believe them. Then they go online and get echo chamebered and positively reinforced.
P0__Boy427 · 2 points · Posted at 15:53:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If I pass you on the right lane of the freeway, you are driving too slow and need to move over. Looking at you, Illinois.
lawlshane · 2 points · Posted at 15:55:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Keep right except to pass
DstroyerOfHausPlants · 2 points · Posted at 16:02:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just because someone doesn't like something you say or do doesn't mean they don't like you as a person. Nobody is 100% likable and there are things that people who love/like you won't care for.
tl;dr - not everything is a personal attack.
toml3030 · 2 points · Posted at 16:10:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's usually scientists that catch mistakes and frauds by other scientists, not some "activist"
DonaldsOrangeBeanBag · 2 points · Posted at 16:11:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you don't hear from someone they don't want to talk to you.
ybguitar · 2 points · Posted at 16:11:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Humility
Shallot_Belt · 2 points · Posted at 16:20:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If we put our bags on the ground we can fit twice as many people on transport.
Dragon_Paul_Z · 2 points · Posted at 16:21:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Tolerance.
KatherineTsara · 2 points · Posted at 16:23:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Most fish tanks are absurdly overcrowded.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 21:06:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And all the bears in zoos Are depressed
psychepsychepsyche · 2 points · Posted at 16:29:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The customer isn't always right.
Iron-Clad · 2 points · Posted at 16:31:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Friends come and go
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 16:34:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The people rallying in Charlottesville wanted counter protesters to show up. The nazis would have shouted themselves to boredom eventually if no one showed up to yell back at them.
ChrisM227 · 2 points · Posted at 16:35:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That ketchup goes in the refrigerator, not the cupboard.
HorsemanOfWar · 1 points · Posted at 18:32:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
As someone who works at a burger joint, I can tell you, it does not matter. Ketchup is a disturbing substance, yes you can keep it cool, but it won't go bad anyways. Another bit that I did not pick up on my own, the stuff will not go bad until a good chunk of time after the expiration date.
JinDenver · 2 points · Posted at 16:36:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That in America there's no such thing as moving up into a new tax bracket because you earn more. A disturbing number of people seem to think that getting a raise means all of your income is taxed at a higher rate. While your earnings over a certain level are taxed more, you don't just move up into a new bracket because of increased earnings.
bo_dingles · 1 points · Posted at 17:23:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Eh, you're right about progressive taxes but many people that make this complaint are going over the limit for some program. Tax credits/ welfare, affordable housing, etc. All have hard cutoff criteria that a raise or full time from part time can cause someone to have lower net money when those programs going away is factored in.
JinDenver · 1 points · Posted at 18:09:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The only people I've ever heard complain about (in my personal experience) it are middle/upper-middle class people who grew up under common conservative tropes that aren't really true at all.
bo_dingles · 2 points · Posted at 18:33:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I see. Low end of the earnings spectrum it can matter much more. IRA deductions and stuff phase out far enough apart that you still have a net increase
JinDenver · 1 points · Posted at 18:35:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Totally true.
TheDeepFryar · 2 points · Posted at 16:48:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Percentages.
kypishere · 2 points · Posted at 16:54:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That your classmates don't really care about your messing up your presentations. :P
samfro74 · 2 points · Posted at 17:03:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Anybody can solve a Rubik's cube. You don't have to be a genius to do it. All you need is the ability to recognize patterns and combinations of moves.
InOzilWeTrust · 2 points · Posted at 17:04:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Marginal tax rates.
cheap_boxer · 2 points · Posted at 17:04:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The world isn't so black and white to have 'good' and 'bad' clearly separated. There is always another side to the story, and everyone has their own idea of how to justify their actions.
thisguyeatschicken · 2 points · Posted at 17:06:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What a logical fallacy is.
Most people don't know what logical fallacies are, much less how to even spot them. It's not really surprising these days, and the 90% aren't entirely at fault either. But the most common thing I run into when debating things with people are things like an ad hominem (verbally attacking the person instead of the argument itself) or red herring (straying from the argument, going off on a tangent of little to no relation with the original).
There's a bunch more, I'd highly advise people to at least make themselves familiar with it. I can't tell people to strictly adhere to them like gospel because I don't always myself, nor is it realistic to believe in such a thing. But I long for a day when I can discuss something with someone and not the metaphorical pigeon who likes to shit all over the chess board.
Edit: Because I forgot to throw it in, [Check out this site](www.yourlogicalfallacyis.com) if you want to get a quick overview on the most common fallacies.
3ulaF0x · 2 points · Posted at 17:07:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Turn signals
fairwayfreddy · 2 points · Posted at 17:07:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Taxes
His_Dudeness_94 · 2 points · Posted at 17:11:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Actual addiction and the retarded as well as morally reprehensible stuff it makes you do despite knowing better.
XSShadow · 2 points · Posted at 17:14:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"I could care less" doesn't make sense if you're trying say you aren't bothered by something. It makes more sense to say "I couldn't care less."
LifeOfFate · 2 points · Posted at 17:15:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Fractions. People often think 1/4 lb is larger than 1/3 lb.
y0y · 2 points · Posted at 18:38:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just ask Hardees!
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 21:03:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But.. steel is heavier than feathers!
MrJQuinn · 2 points · Posted at 17:15:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That I COULDN'T care less. Not I COULD care less.
balleriffic · 2 points · Posted at 17:15:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The alt right is a very small group of people. The media makes it look like a civil war is about to break out
Nelav · 2 points · Posted at 17:17:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When one person says something and another person from the same group/subreddit says something that is paradox, it doesnt mean they are hypocrites... they are different, unique people...
Mazeltiger · 2 points · Posted at 17:17:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to merge correctly onto the highway.
factoid_ · 2 points · Posted at 17:18:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The real distance from the earth to the moon. A useful, if rough, analogy is that if the earth is the size of your fist, the moon is about the size of your eyeball.
If you ask people to put their fist about as far from their eye as they thing the moon orbits the earth most of them will put it maybe a foot away, sometimes less.
In reality you'd have to cut off their hand and walk about 9 feet away with it to have the scale right.
y0y · 1 points · Posted at 18:39:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
To be fair, you're asking them to do something impossible. The nature of the question implants into their mind that it's possible, so they guess from there.
factoid_ · 1 points · Posted at 19:05:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's fair. The trick also works with other common items.
Anything where one sphere is around 4 times the diameter of another. Just measure the small one's diameter and multiply by 100.
Jewbaccah · 2 points · Posted at 17:19:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How electricity works.
DevilDance1968 · 1 points · Posted at 17:19:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Really?
Jewbaccah · 3 points · Posted at 17:20:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
More like 99%. People have no idea what current and voltage really mean. Much less capacitance or how transistors work. And I mean most people on average.. probably a lot more know on Reddit. :)
Pizzacrusher · 1 points · Posted at 17:37:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
strong agree.
DevilDance1968 · 1 points · Posted at 18:05:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I agree. Please accept this ☝️as an appreciation of my thanks.
speedyzach · 2 points · Posted at 17:22:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to use a turn signal.
Utkar22 · 2 points · Posted at 17:23:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Grammer
Pizzacrusher · 1 points · Posted at 17:30:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
yes! and spellink
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:46:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
triggered
lydell · 2 points · Posted at 17:23:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That the darker the roast the less caffeine there is in it. Also, caffeine isn't roasted out of decaf, it's steamed out of it.
edit: is => isn't
JobAnsonMcKee · 2 points · Posted at 17:23:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The actual meaning of irony
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 17:24:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
BaggySpandex · 1 points · Posted at 17:58:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
90% of people don't understand why the search function doesn't even work half the time.
Kiezguy · 2 points · Posted at 17:25:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to properly set sideview mirrors for a car. Spoiler alert: if you can see the side of your car in the mirror, you've set them wrong and eliminated their purpose. You now have 3 rear view mirrors and 0 side view mirrors. The blind spot is a myth, you don't have a blindspot if you set them correctly
Alternate-Error · 2 points · Posted at 20:54:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oh my god yes! I do this so I don't have a blind spot and my wife doesn't so every lane change she has to check her blind spot. Then gets in my car and changes the mirrors, if I don't immediately notice I'll be checking my mirrors as usual and there will be someone in my newly created blind spot that I'll almost hit. Had to explain the whole thing to her now she just doesn't drive my car. Also why would I need to see the freaking side of my car?
Kiezguy · 1 points · Posted at 14:05:26 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Exactly. People say they don't know where they are looking if they can't see their car as a reference point, as if there is some bandit running around shifting people's mirrors ever so slightly from where they were originally set to. It's just frustrating.
Alternate-Error · 2 points · Posted at 14:28:14 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's so easy.
1) Find a parallel parked car.
2) Drive past slowly until you can't see the car in you peripheral vision.
3) STOP. Set side mirrors so you can see the car well.
4) Slowly drive forward and make sure the car is visible in your side mirrors until it's visible in your rear view mirror.
5) Repeat for other side.
6) Done.
Kiezguy · 2 points · Posted at 14:38:01 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah that's a good way to check that it's 100% correct. You can also do it when you are sitting still if you are in a hurry. For the drivers side mirror, put your head right next to your window and move the mirror outward until you can barely see the edge of your car. Do the same thing for the passenger side but position your head so it's almost over the center console. Gotta make sure your head is in line with your normal driving position in regards to front/back when you do it tho. Hopefully that will help save you some time if your wife keeps moving it. Doesn't provide quite as good of a result but gets you in the ballpark.
d0ubleR · 2 points · Posted at 17:25:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That the other 10% found it out the hard way and are trying to educate you.
I_can_pun_anything · 2 points · Posted at 17:25:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The importance of signalling turns while driving
Clerping · 2 points · Posted at 17:25:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Roundabouts
squashhh · 2 points · Posted at 17:25:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How truly bad my eyesight is without my glasses or contacts.
Why do people try to question me on this? I know!
MomoPewpew · 2 points · Posted at 17:26:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When you are driving an automobile you are responsible for the lives of all weaker traffic participants, no matter how wrong they were.
XxHarryEpicQBxX · 2 points · Posted at 17:27:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Password encryption/hashing. A lot of people seem to think that they can just ask the IT guys what their password is when they forget it, and it can simply be found stored in some sort of database letter-for-letter.
assiraN · 2 points · Posted at 17:28:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How evolution works
AquaticSnail · 2 points · Posted at 17:28:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This
namkap · 2 points · Posted at 17:28:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Freedom of speech is not freedom from consequences of that speech.
quirklessloser · 2 points · Posted at 17:29:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When people say "I could care less", when the phrase is actually "I couldn't care less". Also along a similar line, when people say yes when asked "Do you mind?" when you should say no.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 17:30:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
90% of people don't understand that math is 81% math and 52% skill.
CajunTisha · 2 points · Posted at 17:37:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
As an accountant, this comment made me laugh!
Hoten · 2 points · Posted at 17:31:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The ending to Lost.
L O S T
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 17:32:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That I don't have to respect your opinion. I respect your right to have one, but not necessarily the content.
A number of times I have called someone's opinon stupid and they have said - why can't you be respectful of my opinion?
I don't have to be. Some opinions are dumb. Some of mine are dumb to other people. I don't have to respect your opinions. A world where we respected each other's opinions and did not call out things we thought were bullshit would not develop.
You have a right to an opinion, not to said opinon being respected. I respect no one can force you not be an anti vaxxer but I can also call you a moron for being an anti vaxxer. I don't have to respect your opinion or you, just your right to have one and to exist.
bandanamancakes · 2 points · Posted at 17:33:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The difference between being an introvert and being an extrovert isn't a level of social anxiety or a willingness to involve oneself in activities with other people, it's just a difference in where someone gets their energy. Introverts get their social battery filled by spending time alone, extroverts get their social battery filled by spending time with other people. Simple!
DugusBestGuy · 2 points · Posted at 17:33:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Microsoft Excel
jmit81 · 2 points · Posted at 17:34:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Why someone with social anxiety or awkwardness has trouble talking to someone. Or if someone is always worried about what someone is thinking that they can just stop thinking about it. It's not that easy
Money_Bags97 · 2 points · Posted at 17:34:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That the values of Conservatives vs. Liberals change over time. What Liberals once fought for, Conservatives now hold to be close beliefs.
Conservatives used to argue against interracial marriage while Liberals fought for it, now it's the same with gay marriage. They even use the same old arguments.
Even all the way back to discovering the new world. Conservatives wanted to stay in Britain and keep the monarchy, while liberals were the ones setting sail for the new world and ushering in reform that led to the founding of America (the holy grail of Conservatism now).
This isn't to say Conservative are holding us back, they are a voice of caution as we move forward. We still need to learn from history.
Irelgbt · 1 points · Posted at 18:00:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
GURL it's so funny too looking back on history and seeing it repeat itself is so funny
Wraeclast_Exile · 2 points · Posted at 17:35:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That you won't get sick from being a bit cold.
delancey517 · 2 points · Posted at 17:35:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Conservatism does NOT equal racism.
Irelgbt · 1 points · Posted at 17:59:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Always leads to some kind of "ism" though
Nholwell · 2 points · Posted at 17:35:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Using only 10% of our brains is not true at all
Latent_blue · 2 points · Posted at 17:35:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There's no cure for cancer.
There may be a cure for a specific type of cancer
And there may be a new mechanism by which multiple types of cancers can be treated...
But malignant tumours are a massively heterogeneous group of entities - a huge spectrum of diseases that, in some cases, share absolutely no similarities apart from the layman's designation as "cancer"
elpajaroquemamais · 2 points · Posted at 17:35:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That facts and opinions aren't the same thing.
For example, Joe Dirt is a bad movie is an opinion, but Joe Dirt is not a critically acclaimed movie is a fact.
Also, something that is factually falsifiable isn't an opinion, it's a denial of the truth.
nastydoughnut · 2 points · Posted at 17:36:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
who won ww2
BrutalPoseidon · 2 points · Posted at 17:36:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Insults don't make people want to help you. Actually, it just provokes them to do the opposite.
Malachhamavet · 2 points · Posted at 17:37:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Suicide, bad teeth, depression and drug addiction. I've dealt with suicidal ideation and attempts since I was 12 or so and depression even longer than that. I'm not nor have I been a drug addict unless cigarettes or marijuana count but my dad is an alcoholic and always has been and my mom is addicted to gambling and pills. When the family doctor found mom lying about her pill usage when I was a kid our family insurance dropped us including dental so I didn't get to go to the dentist anymore. I'm 25 now, in extreme pain everyday with teeth that are rotting in my mouth similar to what one might imagine a crack addict looks like. We lived on a native reservation that was consistently out of running water so I drank Pepsi almost exclusively as a kid or I'd drink whatever bottled water we could afford since it never went on sale like Pepsi did. Didn't help that dad was a mean drunk and stepped on my face a couple times breaking them further. I'm far too poor and embarrassed to seek help now so I just deal with it day in and out. The depression, anxiety and dental issues make eating something I dread doing so I've lost weight until I become 119 pounds at 6 foot 1 in height.
Horricule · 2 points · Posted at 17:37:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Basic Grammar, Basic Math, Basic History, Basic Geography
bmwake · 2 points · Posted at 17:37:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
that you can either let compound interest work for you or against you
Grey996 · 2 points · Posted at 17:37:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Their, they're, there.
nekmatu · 2 points · Posted at 17:37:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
People.
TheSlicemanCometh · 2 points · Posted at 17:37:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Economics. Particularly the concept of "the unseen" aka opportunity cost.
Seadurism_ · 2 points · Posted at 17:38:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Y'all have offended me so much I am in tears
kitkatbay · 2 points · Posted at 17:38:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That taxes support government services and you can't get good government services without providing sufficient funding for those services.
Irelgbt · 1 points · Posted at 17:46:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's more of an American problem
kitkatbay · 2 points · Posted at 17:49:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I have suspected as much, but I am only familiar with the American and Western European perspectives on the matter.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 17:39:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That one person doesn’t represent the whole group i.e. legit ANY group like: religions, races, genders, sports teams, friend groups, political groups, or nationalities.
Everyone is different and it’s stupid to use your hate for one person and justify it towards the whole group.
BentBomber · 2 points · Posted at 17:40:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to drive. Specifically how passing lanes work, and why it's important to "move right except to pass".
Gumby507 · 2 points · Posted at 17:40:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Statistics.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 17:42:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
recurring vs reoccurring
JT286 · 2 points · Posted at 17:42:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Personal space
olmikeyy · 3 points · Posted at 17:46:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Personal space https://imgur.com/gallery/zJ3Zt
spoilingattack · 2 points · Posted at 17:42:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Allergies. Maybe not 90%, but still a shit ton. I asked a patient about their allergies. This person said, "I'm allergic to Epinephrine." I said, "What does it do to you?" Patient says "It makes my heart race" with a completely straight face. No, that's not an allergy. You body makes it naturally and I'll give it to you to fix a severe allergic reaction.
olmikeyy · 1 points · Posted at 17:43:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
EMT?
spoilingattack · 2 points · Posted at 18:08:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Paramedic and RN.
olmikeyy · 1 points · Posted at 18:11:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Nice! I lost my EMT Cert like a jackass, thinking I wouldn't use it. Years later I decided to try and become a PA. Stupid young me!
spoilingattack · 1 points · Posted at 02:39:03 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
You can always get your certification back. There's an option to challenge by examination.
Uncle-Hippie · 2 points · Posted at 17:43:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
People
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 17:43:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The difference between Type I and Type II Diabetes.
tunaman808 · 1 points · Posted at 17:50:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Amen to that! My GF is Type 1, and has worked at the same small company for 17 years... and her boss still doesn't understand the difference! She (the boss) is always suggesting my GF ask her doctor about some new drug (for type 2) or new treatment (for type 2) or new diet (for type 2). NONE OF THAT IS GOING TO HELP SOMEONE WITH TYPE 1 DIABETES, WHICH MY GF HAS TOLD YOU SHE HAS AT LEAST 5,829 TIMES!
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 17:52:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
People are bewildered by the fact that I was diagnosed as a Type I at the age of 5 with an extremely low body weight. Type I is either genetic or triggered by a currently unknown cause.
tunaman808 · 1 points · Posted at 20:17:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, my GF is one of those people who "got a really bad cold, then developed Type 1 three weeks later".
ACuddlySnowBear · 2 points · Posted at 17:44:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
~50% of r/AskReddit threads are rewordings of a question that was asked last week.
aslendermammal · 2 points · Posted at 17:44:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Turn signals
mugmugthebarbarian · 2 points · Posted at 17:47:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Science is not a belief system, it is a procedural way of asking questions and observing in order to understand things better.
YJMark · 2 points · Posted at 17:47:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That other people can be different from themselves.
So many people get so upset when you believe in different things or have different views.
kaduceus · 2 points · Posted at 17:48:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Taxes
The adage that people are afraid to make more or MORE of their income will be taken by the government.
It doesn't work like that
If the tax rate is 10% at under $200,000 and 50% above $200,000.... it doesn't mean if you earn $199,999 you will keep $179,000 but if you make $201,000 that you suddenly only keep $100,000.50
"Well why would I want to make more than $200k?? Then I'll MAKE LESS!"
Wrong.
It is a tier. From 0-200k those dollars are taxed at rate X but once you enter the next bracket THOSE dollars are taxed at rate Y... and so on as you move up the brackets.
QLC459 · 2 points · Posted at 17:48:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Politics
Phspeckert · 2 points · Posted at 17:49:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How dieting/ nutrition works and what is a scam if it comes to this, and what isnt
T4blespoon · 2 points · Posted at 17:49:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to drive.
redder876 · 2 points · Posted at 17:49:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How lower frame rate improves games. It doesn't; a constant frame rate is what matters.
trey1599 · 1 points · Posted at 17:51:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Lower. Frame. Rate. IMPROVES. GAMES?!?!?!
redder876 · 1 points · Posted at 17:52:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Read it again, that's not what I said.
mattthemobile · 2 points · Posted at 17:50:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Keep right, pass on the left
themogz · 2 points · Posted at 17:50:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Turning signals. They're to tell people you have the intention of moving in the specified direction, not that you're in the process of doing so.
sturmblast · 2 points · Posted at 17:51:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to merge on the freeway
kennethpoole · 2 points · Posted at 17:52:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not all opinions deserve the same amount of recognition
ItsYaBoyJuggernaut · 2 points · Posted at 17:53:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You can't pause an online game, mom
ooooooOOoooooo000000 · 2 points · Posted at 17:53:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
LEFT LANE FOR PASSING ONLY
gabergum · 2 points · Posted at 17:53:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Statistics
evilmonkey2 · 2 points · Posted at 17:53:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The national debt isn't the same thing as an individual's debt (student loans, credit card, etc) and is not a horrible thing.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 17:53:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How bad excessive plastic consumption is for the entire planet
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 17:55:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That the first amendment only means you won't go to jail for your opinions. It doesn't protect you from losing your job, having people think you're an asshole, or being arrested for a threat or causing a disturbance like yelling "Fire!" in a movie theater.
anitajoint · 2 points · Posted at 17:55:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
their health insurance! As a medical biller FML!!!!!!!!!!!!!
uncle_drunky · 2 points · Posted at 17:56:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There is no "cloud"... only someone else's computer
GrandallFFBE · 2 points · Posted at 17:56:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The far left lane is for passing.
karter0 · 2 points · Posted at 17:56:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Healthcare ≠ Health Insurance
LocalChester · 1 points · Posted at 18:07:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is a big one, especially in America. The "free healthcare" that many beg for could not possibly cover all that health insurance would cover. Healthcare would cover routine visits to the doctor, treatment, and prevention of disease. This would most likely NOT cover injuries and illnesses such as a broken bone, cancer, or surgeries. Health insurance, which you pay for to cover financial loss due to health problems or illnesses. It provides coverage for medicine, visits to the doctor or the emergency room, hospital stays and other medical expenses. It is extremely unreasonable to expect free healthcare that would cover emergency hospital visits and other unforeseen medical costs.
Bevoo860 · 2 points · Posted at 17:57:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Basic economic concepts
PresidentBubbles · 2 points · Posted at 18:01:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Hate speech =/= free speech.
Darktidemage · 2 points · Posted at 18:02:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Statistics.
I just had a long winded argument with a guy who insisted that since Virgin brides divorce the least often that proves a causal relationship between number of partners and divorce..
he can't imagine a 3rd variable is controlling for both.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:02:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Telling me to hurry whilst already busting my tail hurrying will either delay the process will make me antsy or fuck up something while trying to go hyper speed. Either way its slowing things down.
tunaman808 · 2 points · Posted at 18:03:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well, 90% is a bit high, but I'm surprised by how many grown-ass, college educated adults don't understand how marginal tax rates work. I've known several people - coworkers, friends, acquaintances, girlfriends - who sweated getting a raise because "it'll put me in a higher tax bracket, and I'll lose money 'cos my taxes will go up".
NEWS FLASH: That's not how taxes work. If a raise bumps you into a higher bracket, you only pay the higher rate on the income that you earn over the bracket.
EXAMPLE: If you make $28,000 and the rate for incomes of $20,000-$29,999 is 20%, you pay $5,600 in taxes. If you get a $3,000 raise - which bumps you to the 30% bracket for people earning $30,000 to $39,999 - you pay $6,300 in taxes: $6,000 at 20% and $300 at 30%. You do not pay 30% on your total income. All other things being equal, it's impossible to "lose" money by getting a raise. You might, of course, lose out on some benefits (like an earned income tax credit)... but that's why I said "all other things being equal".
MaximRecoil · 1 points · Posted at 22:01:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Explain this: At a factory I worked at in the late 1990s, there was one week where we were required to work 2 hours of overtime each night, so it ended up being a 50-hour week instead of the usual 40-hour week. My net pay was about three dollars less for that week than usual, even though my gross pay was quite a bit more than usual.
EssexStadir · 2 points · Posted at 18:03:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Communism will never "work" and never has.
Frankandthatsit · 2 points · Posted at 18:03:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The media is the problem. We would all get along 10,000x better with less media.
RedditsSavior · 2 points · Posted at 18:03:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Nuclear Power, its not a latent bomb. Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean its dangerous.
alvinism · 2 points · Posted at 18:03:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Freedom of speech does not equals to freedom of consequences.
Just because you have the right to criticize, talk down or even scold others doesn't mean others will let you.
dubsteponmycat · 2 points · Posted at 18:03:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Compound interest.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:04:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Schrodinger's cat. It's not actually both dead and alive at the same time; it's a thought experiment meant to show flaws in the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics, which says that a physical system is in a superposition of states until observed. Schrodinger didn't subscribe to this interpretation, so he introduced the concept of Schrodinger's cat as an example of why it can't be so, because a cat can't be both dead and alive.
riggo218 · 2 points · Posted at 18:04:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You can't be a Christian and have voted for Trump
nixmix06 · 2 points · Posted at 18:04:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The phrase "the customer is always right". This does not apply to the individual consumer but the market. If the market is demanding a certain product or feature, the vendor should sell/implement it to remain competitive.
It does NOT mean that an individual consumer can demand some whim be catered to like making a return outside of policy, getting free product, getting a CSR fired (for following policy), etc. just because they're "the customer".
mackuhronee · 2 points · Posted at 18:04:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You don't deserve anything, you just deserve the right to try and achieve it yourself.
InRustWeTrust · 2 points · Posted at 18:04:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The United States Constitution
djmooselee · 2 points · Posted at 18:04:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you come up to the DJ and say "I want to hear this song before I leave "... That makes the DJ not play the song because my job is to keep you here.
JoelKeys · 2 points · Posted at 18:04:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That "You don't know nothing!" doesn't mean what you think it sounds like.
Nathaniel-S · 2 points · Posted at 18:04:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Nothing is 'chemical free'
allisa11 · 1 points · Posted at 18:11:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Except light? And vacuums?
Nathaniel-S · 2 points · Posted at 18:15:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Referring to the chemophobia of products, but you are of course correct
nickbrutal · 2 points · Posted at 18:04:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
90% of people don't understand 90% of people.
tecmobowlchamp · 2 points · Posted at 18:05:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
People getting off the elevator have the right away.
IVDeliBruh · 2 points · Posted at 18:05:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The left lane is the PASSING LANE. MOVE THE FUCK OVER
Rocky87109 · 2 points · Posted at 18:05:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When presented with 2 subjects, just because subject A is incorrect or flawed, does not mean subject B is automatically correct, flawless, or containing any more merit than subject A.
Petersaber · 2 points · Posted at 18:05:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A single exception does not invalidate millions of examples.
Your anecdotal evidence doesn't suddenly make the world work differently.
Also, fucking echo chambers.
levelologist · 2 points · Posted at 18:05:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That we are made of thousands of traits that all appear all over the bell curve. It's this large distribution that makes us super resilient and adaptable as a species. Diversity is the best thing possible! Embrace it's beauty. Let it make you happy inside when you see differences in others.
Jean-Baptiste1763 · 2 points · Posted at 18:06:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Only about 5% of the people in this case, but they sort of stand out:
If, in a right-side-driving country, on the highway, you're in the left lane, there's no one in front of you or to your right but there's another car right behind you, you should move one lane to the right.
Babatoongie · 2 points · Posted at 18:06:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That freedom of speech does not equal freedom FROM consequences of that speech, just that the government can't unjustly silence you either by arrest or aggression. Your boss still has every right to sack your ass if they feel your speech reflects poorly on their company and the public at large can condemn and chastise you as much as they see fit.
At no point is choosing your words wisely and being careful of how your words affect others a negligible concept.
Tockity · 2 points · Posted at 18:06:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
the possessive form of it is "its" and not "it's"
henropotter · 2 points · Posted at 18:06:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Stop clicking the mouse. If there was no response after 1 click, clicking it 42 more times will not make it work.
apc2 · 2 points · Posted at 18:06:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not everything said on social media is true
9zero7 · 2 points · Posted at 18:06:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Most everyone just wants the best for themselves, and the reason for their actions usually isn't malicious towards other people by intent.
googler99 · 2 points · Posted at 18:07:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you let the nice people in the elevator exit it first, there will be more space for you to go in (then plant your flag, claim the land, whatever).
USCplaya · 2 points · Posted at 18:07:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The left lane is the passing lane. It is used by motorists traveling faster to pass slower moving vehicles. If you are driving slowly in the left lane, you are more dangerous than the person driving faster.
Also, the carpool lane is not required to be used if there are 2 or more people in the car. If you are plodding along at 5 under in the carpool lane, you are impeding traffic. You can go 5 under in the far right lane.
sagetrees · 2 points · Posted at 18:07:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
homeopathy IS NOT herbalism. Homeopathy is utter bullshit, herbs have active compounds.
bluemavis · 1 points · Posted at 19:18:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You mean diluting St. John's Wort to 1/100,000 of it's original concentration WON'T give it super strength?????
sagetrees · 2 points · Posted at 19:20:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm gonna assume you left the /s off that comment ;)
themightymooker · 2 points · Posted at 18:07:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The right to free speech does not equate to freedom from the consequences of your pronouncements.
HotSexyPunkie · 2 points · Posted at 18:08:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Institutional racism and white privilege are real and continue to actively play a part in harming people of color.
DeerTrivia · 2 points · Posted at 18:10:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The First Amendment.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:10:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The actions of the minority may not represent the ideology of the majority.
Hydrogeology · 2 points · Posted at 18:10:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Life is not fair.
dubeykeebler · 2 points · Posted at 18:11:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
politics according to Reddit posts
deeeznutzz95 · 2 points · Posted at 18:12:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That the left lane is for passing and should move faster than the right lane.
allmhuran · 2 points · Posted at 18:12:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The rules of basic propositional logic, AKA "how to form a valid argument", and perhaps more specifically why those are important.
Common example (abstract): X is true. Bob believes X. Bob reads an argument in support of X. The argument is invalid, or invokes a false premise, but because the conclusion agrees with what Bob believes, Bob also agrees with the argument. Bob is affirming the consequent.
Bob now goes and uses part of this invalid argument he has just learned in some other argument. Bob is now an active participant in the obfuscation and suffocation of truth in the world.
bluejams · 2 points · Posted at 18:12:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Based on this thread sorted by new, what 90% means.
swagerito · 2 points · Posted at 18:12:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
that being a pshychopath or sociopath doesn't mean you enjoy murder or torture. i'm neither but i can see that people assuming that would be frustrating.
Njaaaw · 2 points · Posted at 18:12:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That there is anything to understand. They think they have everything figured out.
cyclonepsycho · 2 points · Posted at 18:12:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Being an asshat to people doesn't make things easier for anyone
akaenragedgoddess · 2 points · Posted at 18:13:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Income brackets, progressive taxation, and that you owe the same tax at the end of the year regardless of how much gets taken out of your paycheck during the course of the year.
TehKatieMonster · 2 points · Posted at 18:13:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Digital art is art, the computer doesn't do the work for me, it doesn't even make it easier. Drawing and making art is working, it is very tiring. If you do it for a job, its not fun
KyleRichXV · 2 points · Posted at 18:13:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You can't reason with people that didn't reason themselves into a position in the first place.
Holl0wayTape · 2 points · Posted at 18:13:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The other 10%
Solastor · 2 points · Posted at 18:14:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That just because someone has a first amendment right to the freedom of speech, doesn't mean we have to listen, and doesn't mean we can't talk loudly over them.
First Amendment means the government won't quash your right to speak. It doesn't declare that every citizen has to sit back and listen to you and it doesn't mean your speech is protected with your employer.
brawlisticyosh · 2 points · Posted at 18:14:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"The Cloud" It's not invisible. It's a physical place in a big warehouse probably underground and temperature controlled. It's a big physical place for all your digital shit.
Happyman321 · 2 points · Posted at 18:14:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Blinkers
oglehole · 2 points · Posted at 18:15:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"It's a free country" isnt an excuse to take my stuff, Johnny
Chuck_Pheltersnatch · 2 points · Posted at 18:15:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Quantum coupling
fucherididtwice · 2 points · Posted at 18:15:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to operate a motor vehicle correctly.
fucherididtwice · 2 points · Posted at 18:15:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to operate a motor vehicle correctly.
fucherididtwice · 2 points · Posted at 18:15:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to operate a motor vehicle correctly.
fucherididtwice · 2 points · Posted at 18:15:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to operate a motor vehicle correctly.
fucherididtwice · 2 points · Posted at 18:15:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to operate a motor vehicle correctly.
PKKEndrance · 2 points · Posted at 18:16:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Manners. Saying please, thank you, and excuse me will not cause you to burst into flames. Your kids are going to grow up to be assholes too.
mayorodoyle · 2 points · Posted at 18:16:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Apparently 90% of people don't understand that nazis are always bad.
hacksociety · 2 points · Posted at 18:17:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Massive income inequality is a feature of modern capitalism, not a bug.
HyenaGamez · 2 points · Posted at 18:17:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to read signs or follow directions.
xEasyActionx · 2 points · Posted at 18:17:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The sign on the highway that says "slower traffic keep right."
16th_Century_Prophet · 2 points · Posted at 18:17:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"Begs the question" DOES NOT mean "raises the question"
AMBIC0N · 2 points · Posted at 18:17:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to let people pass in the left lane.
Serenious · 2 points · Posted at 18:18:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
ITT: 90% comments about things everyone understands
davinci515 · 2 points · Posted at 18:18:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
weight loss... there is not magic or voodoo involved... caloric deficit is the only possible way to lose weight.
astrangetimeinmylife · 2 points · Posted at 18:18:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Your thoughts create your reality.
TheOneTrueRobin · 2 points · Posted at 18:18:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When there is another car in front of me on the highway, driving 3 feet from my bumper will not make them drive any quicker.
robertleeblairjr · 2 points · Posted at 18:19:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Celebrity endorsements more closely correlate to the amount of money an entity has spent to use their image and not that the representation of said use is clearly the best product, service, political views, charity, etc. Also, this doesn't mean that the celebrity, in turn, knows much of anything about the object being endorsed.
justalibrary · 2 points · Posted at 18:19:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Cutting in and out of lanes while trying to squeeze into the lane that may or may not be moving faster during traffic will not get you to your destination earlier by any substantial measure. You're really just fucking everything else up downstream who have to brake to your bullshit.
nowaynorway1 · 2 points · Posted at 18:19:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Clean up after yourselves!!! I do not want to sit on a toilet with your piss all over it!
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:20:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"I hate GMOs" she says, as she bites into her cob of corn.
U4iA_ · 2 points · Posted at 18:20:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to use a fucking turn signal
Squez360 · 2 points · Posted at 18:20:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That most women are shallow
DayDay1131 · 2 points · Posted at 18:20:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Winter is coming
v0rtigaunts · 2 points · Posted at 18:21:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to merge zipper style in traffic.
LulutheLulu · 2 points · Posted at 18:21:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The acts of a small group do not and cannot represent something indirect and larger
synoptico · 2 points · Posted at 18:21:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That you can't give 110% effort
JulianPerry · 2 points · Posted at 18:22:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The proper use of a coconut.
scorpchick · 2 points · Posted at 18:22:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Common sense.
Zurathose · 2 points · Posted at 18:22:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
SaRcAsM
100PercentRudos · 2 points · Posted at 18:23:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The media does NOT have the public's best interest at heart. They exist, well, over 90% of them, to make the public "choose sides" and inflame issues bigger than they really are to sell newspapers and clicks and ratings points
Kurt300 · 2 points · Posted at 18:23:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What is beautiful is not necessarily good.
duelingdelbene · 2 points · Posted at 18:23:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Cheating is wrong.
The world is not your garbage can.
alaskahassnow · 2 points · Posted at 18:23:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Equal rights
Nismo350Guy · 2 points · Posted at 18:24:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Politics.
originalmango · 2 points · Posted at 18:24:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Retail worker here. If you have a problem with something you've purchased, please tell me what's wrong. Please don't describe the day you purchased it, how nice the salesperson was, why you needed to purchase it, how long you've been shopping here, how much money you've spent here, or how you'll soon need to buy something else here.
If it's not a given, then tell me what I can do for you. Nine times out of ten I'll say sure, follow me, we'll get that taken care of. Please don't give me a life history.
Please.
cambo666 · 2 points · Posted at 18:24:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Going to and graduating college/uni (for you non-US'ers) doesn't make you smart, better than anyone else, stand out, lock you into a career of your choice, or wiser.
Nodebunny · 2 points · Posted at 18:24:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How amazing I am.
ToplessJeeper · 2 points · Posted at 18:25:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Turn Signals
jeffmcd12345 · 2 points · Posted at 18:25:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That fortune tellers are bullshit.
Diddy_8D · 2 points · Posted at 18:25:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
All chaps are assless....
Eagle912 · 2 points · Posted at 18:25:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You can't pause a multiplayer game
threevo · 2 points · Posted at 18:26:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That there are about 500-1500 neo nazis in the entire USA. Also that 99.99% of trump supporters feel the same way about them as the opposition does.
oreotragus · 2 points · Posted at 18:26:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That a snake's sole purpose in life is NOT to murder you.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:26:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That you won't convince other people of your viewpoint by insults and talking down to them.
That only puts them on the defensive and makes them unreceptive to your arguments.
NomNomGravy · 2 points · Posted at 18:26:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not all strands of Autism make you 'stupid' in fact some strands like Hyposensitivity can give you some pretty cool advantages like a higher pain tolerance.
WTFCrimson · 2 points · Posted at 18:26:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How percentages work.
skeeter-gunz · 2 points · Posted at 18:26:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That the left lane is not the "fast lane" it's the "overtaking lane"!!! People who left lane cruise are the absolute worst.
cpeard · 2 points · Posted at 18:27:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If u are always late for work, set your fucking alarm earlier. Jeez.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:27:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to read a bill.
Aguila909 · 2 points · Posted at 18:27:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Turning on their blinkers when they're about to turn
01bf · 2 points · Posted at 18:27:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
People of color can be racist.
ASAPTISY · 2 points · Posted at 18:27:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That you can't keep others warm by lighting yourself on fire
sanguinius74 · 2 points · Posted at 18:27:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Stop sign right of ways. Especially two way stops.
Kangeroebig · 2 points · Posted at 18:28:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Quantum Field Theory
def__init__self · 2 points · Posted at 18:28:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sunk Cost.
tominagy · 2 points · Posted at 18:28:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Capitalism
CatherineAm · 2 points · Posted at 18:29:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
US tax brackets.
Look, folks. Making over the next "level up" DOES NOT MEAN that your entire income is taxed at that level.
Think of it like buckets. Everyone puts their first $9000 into the first bucket. Everyone from someone who is only going to make $9000 to billionaires. That first bucket is taxed at 10%.
Then, everyone puts in everything above $9000 but less than $38,000 into the next bucket. This bucket is taxed at 15%.
Then everything above $38,000 but less than $92,000 in a third bucket. This is taxed at 25%.
And so on until everything above $420,000 is taxed at 39.6%.
THIS DOES NOT MEAN that the moment you make more than $38,000 that your entire income is taxed at 25%. You're still paying 10% on the first bucket and 15% on the second.
I have known people to turn down pay raises for fear of being bumped into a higher tax bracket.
Helpful reading
Lt_Doctor_Goober · 2 points · Posted at 18:29:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to handle or understand mental illness.
urbantroll · 2 points · Posted at 18:29:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In terms of taxonomy, humans can't be divided into biological races because we are too genetically similar.
mcewern · 2 points · Posted at 18:29:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That they can live however they want....smoking, drinking, driving dangerously....and they say, "I don't care if I die young!" Many of these folks live until their 60s and can't breathe any more, much less eat, make love, etc. yes, they will die younger, but what they do not realize is that they will not die peacefully in their sleep, or in a bang-up big car crash. Their live will eek away from them....they will spend 8-15 years in creeping disability....at the end they will be on a ventilator (ICU treatment) gasping for their last breath in agony. People! Take care of yourselves! The best gift you can give your children is to live a long and healthy life so that they aren't worried silly about you and whether or not you will live out your next days in suffering and agony.
Sorry, sounds preachy. I am an ICU nurse and get to clean up the messes of this world.
Adlehyde · 2 points · Posted at 18:29:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Definitely statistics and probability.
KayleighArianna · 2 points · Posted at 18:29:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That being wrong is absolutely okay. People seem to go to great lengths to avoid admitting that they were wrong about something but being wrong is perfectly fine. It's part of how we learn and we aren't always going to get everything perfect first time. Shaming people or yourselves for doing a complete 180 on a fact of opinion you have expressed is stupid. Sometimes it's not hypocritical but just someone learning better.
FeralLorax · 2 points · Posted at 18:30:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That politics is not about dialectical compromise. It's about power and who you're beholden to for that power. It's fundamentally about who gets what resources in what quantities.
TightwadJock · 2 points · Posted at 18:30:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The difference between infer and imply
tlowe90 · 2 points · Posted at 18:34:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I actually need to know that one can you explain?
free_is_free76 · 3 points · Posted at 18:56:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
As a speaker you imply, or hint at, something. As a listener, you infer, or take meaning from, something the speaker says.
TightwadJock · 2 points · Posted at 18:56:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You can imply (strongly suggest) something. I can infer (conclude) something from what you say.
Glebatron · 2 points · Posted at 18:30:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
An Internet speed is not really a speed, but an allocation of bandwidth.
D-Mage59663 · 2 points · Posted at 18:30:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Zero-G doesn't mean lack of gravity, just falling sideways really fast.
mead93 · 2 points · Posted at 18:30:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Evolution and natural selection
RedditWhileImWorking · 2 points · Posted at 18:30:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The loudest, most "news-worthy" people are exciting because they are ABNORMAL. They are not a good measure of what is happening with that group, that country, that race, or that political position. If anything, you now know what is common for that group by considering it is the opposite.
Trump is an abnormal president in his speech and temperament. Nazis are an abnormally small group of white Americans. Most religious people are kind, accepting people, so ISIS and Westboro Baptists who hate everything are abnormal.
RodTidwell2 · 2 points · Posted at 18:31:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Setting a thermostat to the maximum or minimum will not make the house heat up or cool down any faster.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:31:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Their own stupidity.
thelug · 2 points · Posted at 18:31:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Gun Shots are loud... (Louder than you think) a gun shot in a car is one of the biggest failures on TV.
FaliusAren · 1 points · Posted at 18:34:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"Failures"? please elaborate
thelug · 1 points · Posted at 18:57:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Shooting a gun in a car would completely incapacitate you. Your ears drums would rupture. You would basically lose all bodily function, pain would be utterly excruciating.
ehlana_swe · 2 points · Posted at 18:31:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That they themselves in fact need to make changes in their lives, beyond "caring", to promote sustainability and suppress climate change
RobDaBigSpoon · 2 points · Posted at 18:32:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Imagine bitchin' about the President doing a terrible job only to get the job and realize it's a bit tougher than you thought.
AtheistAlien · 2 points · Posted at 18:32:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just because something is written in a book, doesn't mean it's true.
LOLICON_DEATH_MINION · 2 points · Posted at 18:32:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Retail work sucks. You're angry? I really don't give a shit.
RealityIsFun · 2 points · Posted at 18:32:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
We're human first. No one is more deserving than any one.
LHiggins207 · 2 points · Posted at 18:32:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Magnets. How do they work?
Chancer102 · 2 points · Posted at 18:33:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Quantummechanics. 90% of people don't seem to understand
Auto_Claims_Adjuster · 2 points · Posted at 18:33:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Their insurance policies.
Kitosaki · 2 points · Posted at 18:33:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Net neutrality. If you value speech, you should support this. Nothing good for consumers will come out of implementing repeal of title 2 legislation on ISPs.
LMR_Sahara · 2 points · Posted at 18:33:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just because I'm Republican doesn't mean I support Trump or am a Racist by default.
ForensicsBridge · 2 points · Posted at 18:33:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That 0.999... equals 1.
dreadlockmimi · 2 points · Posted at 18:34:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Nutrition.
sXeGod · 2 points · Posted at 18:34:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Big Bang, Abiogenesis and Evolution. This is where we all came from. Every living thing are related to each other from the very first single cell organism and before that our atoms came from the single source from the big bang.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:34:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
probability
take a course! it's very useful in life (insurances, gambling)
venkrish · 2 points · Posted at 18:34:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That everyone in this thread is privileged in one way or the other.
Totally_a_Banana · 2 points · Posted at 18:36:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Left is for passing. Slower Traffic keep right.
Ffs people why is that so hard to grasp???
etclove · 2 points · Posted at 18:36:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Freedom of speech =/= freedom from consequences
Artorias2728 · 2 points · Posted at 18:37:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That my skin color has absolutely no bearing on what personal views I hold.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:39:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Do not open files sent from untrusted people.
Jallis370 · 2 points · Posted at 18:40:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Be kind, even if your day has been awful.
vinnyblood · 2 points · Posted at 18:40:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The 1st amendment. It is incredible how a certain segment of our population that is completely infatuated with the 2nd amendment have absolutely no idea how the previous one works.
dranide · 2 points · Posted at 18:40:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That mom birds will not leave their baby birds to die if a human touches them.
Winning the lottery with the numbers 17,18,19,20,21 is just as likely as winning with whatever "magic combination you came up with"
FFS family. I hate you guys.
Porsche924 · 2 points · Posted at 18:41:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Zipper merge, people! Two short lines are less disruptive than one long line of cars. Also the car that gets to the front isn't an asshole, they're alleviating traffic behind, and if you expect to let every other car in, there's no reason to get mad at getting cut off.
Dark_Nugget · 2 points · Posted at 18:41:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Mental health and, but not totally unrelated; other people's suffering.
AbrasiveLore · 2 points · Posted at 18:41:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
“Conservative” and “right” are not the same thing.
Republicans are right, not conservative.
Theseus_The_King · 2 points · Posted at 18:42:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Counteracting far right hate speech doesn't make you as bad as the fascists, fighting and speaking out against evil and those that will only do harm doesn't make you as bad as them. What does make you as bad as them is defending or staying silent.
"If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor." ~ Desmond Tutu
Nersen · 2 points · Posted at 18:42:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Politics. Even when you are right, you are somehow wrong.
felixsucc · 2 points · Posted at 18:42:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
IMO, raising animals in cages to kill and eat is wrong
Cloudy_mood · 2 points · Posted at 18:42:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That hate groups, regardless of color, are small pockets of people in the US, but the media reports it as if it's whole cities or states. Then people create the memes and shit and then it gets spread all over my Facebook feed and I have to unfollow people for being stupid.
The country is not headed for Nazisism people.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:43:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
/r/catsstandingup
Sleepwalks · 2 points · Posted at 18:43:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When you make an argument in anger, people hear the anger more than what you're saying. You can scream the most profound thing in someone's face, and all they'll take away from it was that some asshole screamed in their face. You destroy your own argument if you're not calm.
Kneegroez · 2 points · Posted at 18:43:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Freedom of speech applies to EVERYONE, even hate speech In America
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:43:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Quantum Physics.
RodTidwell2 · 2 points · Posted at 18:44:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Setting a thermostat to the maximum or minimum will not make the house heat up or cool down any faster.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:44:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Critical Thinking
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:44:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Saying ''Some people'' does not always mean saying ''All people''.
THR33ZAZ3S · 2 points · Posted at 18:44:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
90% of people don't understand that 60% of the time it works everytime.
PoopedYourPantz · 2 points · Posted at 18:45:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That driving sensibly defensive is the fastest way to get to your destination and if everyone drives well that is the best way to prevent slow downs and back ups. Weaving in and out of traffic on multiple lane highways causes back up due to disrupting the routine flow, making others want to move over and creating an ever changing cycle of faster lanes getting bogged down and turning into slower lanes, everyone moves over again, making it hazardous for the people who actually need to switch lanes and creating slowdown. Also zig zagging and driving at inconsistent speeds is shown to be directly correlated with traffic accidents which further slows down traffic.
Also on merge areas The people exiting the freeway slow down and allow the entering traffic to pass them. Drivers entering likewise should speed up and pass the decelerating exiting traffic. Exiting drivers who cut off entering drivers cause backups for everyone behinds them.
Driving faster gives you no advantage except when traveling long distances on open roads with no stops. Those assholes who race from traffic light to traffic light are only wasting gas and wearing down their automobiles.
PeaceLoveTofu · 2 points · Posted at 18:45:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That despising Trump doesn't automatically make me a Hillary supporter; and you should be able to have a conversation about a candidates faults without finger pointing at the opposite party's wrongdoings.
anuzi · 2 points · Posted at 18:45:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Championships in most sports are a team accomplishment, and shouldn't be used as a main argument when comparing players.
HisFaithRestored · 1 points · Posted at 18:46:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Rodgers > Brady
devraj7 · 2 points · Posted at 18:46:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Half of the people don't have below average intelligence.
Example: population of 3, respectively with 1, 2 and 12 intelligence. The average is 5 so 67% of the population is below average.
Glorious_Jo · 2 points · Posted at 18:46:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That if you attend political rallies in the current political climate, there will be fighting. Every single rally with counter protesters has ended in violence in the past 3 years. It was only a matter of time before someone died. I'm only surprised it didn't happen sooner, when people were beating the shit out of each other with bike locks.
The death is tragic, but it was expected.
mtb1443 · 2 points · Posted at 18:47:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Once you are dead that is it. So be nice to each other and treat others as you would like to be treated. it is that simple.
shinglemill · 2 points · Posted at 18:47:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Don't stop dead in your tracks in an airport without looking behind you to see who you're about to piss off.
KoolFM · 2 points · Posted at 18:47:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That hotels and hotel lobbies are not public places to just come in and swan around like you own the place
TasteGoodie · 2 points · Posted at 18:47:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Economics and capitalism
rutreh · 2 points · Posted at 18:47:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That both sugar and saturated fat are bad - it doesn't have to be one or the other. (And that reductionist views on food are ridiculous anyway.)
lovetempests · 2 points · Posted at 18:47:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Allergies and food preferences.
If I tell you I'm lactose intolerant and you keep serving me milk and dairy because you "forgot", that means you're mean & stupid, not forgetful. If I tell you I don't drink soft drinks like Coca Cola & Sprite, and you keep forcing it on me because "it's so good though, you're missing out" then you're a jerk.
It's such a basic thing, and very few people respect it.
hot_oil · 2 points · Posted at 18:48:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That the first amendment is protection from criminal prosecution, not public opinion.
Jmersh · 2 points · Posted at 18:48:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That it's possible to be an atheist and a good person.
Scripter17 · 1 points · Posted at 19:10:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Same with being religious.
_PM_Me_Your_Fantasy_ · 2 points · Posted at 18:48:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
God damn 4 way stop signs there is always that one asshat that messes everything up
Wavemanns · 2 points · Posted at 18:49:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Freedom of speech means that the government can't put you in jail for what you are saying, not that there can be no consequences for what you say.
robverttt · 2 points · Posted at 18:49:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That the first amendment means the government can't restrict your freedom of speech. It doesn't apply to private companies or persons.
Zapherus · 2 points · Posted at 18:49:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There is a lever, usually in the left hand side of your steering wheel, it activates your signal lights.
tastehbacon · 2 points · Posted at 18:49:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That the only real privilege is economic.
PIANO_IN_21_DAYS · 2 points · Posted at 18:49:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Bitcoin
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:50:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"Penultimate" does not mean utmost in degree, it just means next to last. Y is the penultimate letter of the English alphabet.
zared619 · 2 points · Posted at 18:50:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Turn signals and how to use them.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:50:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Confidence does not imply competence.
aeioewe · 2 points · Posted at 18:50:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to stop deflecting in arguments. Like, if I told my mom she drinks too much, and instead of her saying "I know" or "no I don't," she just says something like, "my friend Beth drinks more than me!" Or, "Donald Trump takes too many vacations; tax payers shouldn't have to pay for his golf trips," vs "well, Obama blah blah blah" Its just never a productive kind of response.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:51:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Speeding between stoplights only causes you to sit longer at the light and wears down your brakes faster.
CatLitterAnarchy · 2 points · Posted at 18:51:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That you can not give 110% effort
Unless you failed Math...
Scripter17 · 1 points · Posted at 19:05:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you failed math then you probably couldn't give more than 80% effort.
TheResidents · 2 points · Posted at 18:52:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Using a turn signal (if at all ever, because most don't) doesn't mean you've now claimed the lane next to you without looking first.
uniquename75254 · 2 points · Posted at 18:53:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Humidity in weather reports is relative humidity. The warmer the air the more moisture it will hold so 90% relative humidity air at 50 degrees Fahrenheit is dryer air than air at 85 degree and 50% relative humidity.
pepecoker · 2 points · Posted at 18:54:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Posting about politics on Facebook doesn't change anything
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:54:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just because metal had harsh vocals doesn't mean it's screamo, please for the love of god stop saying this, screamo (I believe) is emo + hardcore and Death is death metal not screamo!
notsurewhatiam · 2 points · Posted at 18:55:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
As a conservative, this site doesn't seem to understand our views.
People actuality think we're all racists.
FearlessENT33 · 2 points · Posted at 18:55:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Freedom of Speech is not freedom from consequence
AlbinoSmurf73 · 2 points · Posted at 18:55:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This comment is probably outdated, but I can remember going through the first half of the '90s, trying to explain to people why movies in letterbox actually show you more of the movie's picture.
MaximRecoil · 1 points · Posted at 23:02:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The problem is: that only applies to movies that were originally shot with an anamorphic lens. With movies that were shot with a flat lens, you see more of the movie's picture in "fullframe", though that additional picture may not be stuff that was intended to be seen. However, a lot of movies were shot with a flat lens with both "widescreen" (theater) and "fullframe" (TV) presentations in mind, so either one is valid from the perspective of what was intended to be seen.
If the movie was 2.35:1 in the theater it was probably shot with an anamorphic lens, and a "fullframe" version will result in a lot of lost picture, and will also usually require a lot of "pan & scan".
If the movie was 1.85:1 in the theater it was probably shot with a flat lens, and a "fullframe" version will have more picture than a 1.85:1 letterboxed version, and it doesn't require "pan & scan".
Today we have the opposite problem: some old TV shows that were originally presented in 4:3 are being cropped to 16:9 for home video releases. Also, some movies which were originally 1.85:1 get cropped to 16:9 (1.78:1) for the home video release, though that's minor compared to cropping 4:3 (1.33:1) to 16:9.
The people who want their movies and TV shows to fit their TV screen will always greatly outnumber people who want the original aspect ratio.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:55:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That under the US Constitution, the right to free speech and peaceable assembly is guaranteed to everyone, even if their speech is abhorrent to most. This includes the right to speech and assembly without allowing suppression. And protecting that right is not at all endorsing the abhorrent speech. Sorry that is uncomfortable for many.
Furfit · 2 points · Posted at 18:55:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's not Electrabuzz. It's Electabuzz. It's not Zapados. It's just Zapdos. And you don't capitalize the two in Mewtwo.
starkiller_bass · 2 points · Posted at 18:55:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In almost all basic residential cases, a thermostat functions as an on/off switch (even with variable speed furnaces/air handlers, they only increase their output because they notice that they've been running awhile and decide they should try harder). Your house won't get warmer or cooler faster by setting the target temperature to 90 degrees or 60 degrees than it would if you just set it to the temperature you want it to be.
peepjynx · 2 points · Posted at 18:55:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
After today? The first amendment apparently.
VITOed · 2 points · Posted at 18:56:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Mostly all white people NOT are racist. Most of us / families came here to the US in the early 1900s, never owned slaves, we fraught in WW2 against the Nazis and denounce the KKK.
LegacyPls · 2 points · Posted at 18:57:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
when your jungler successfully ganks your lane and they shove the wave, it is actually HELPFUL
nybx4life · 1 points · Posted at 18:58:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
objectives, yo.
A_Bartender · 2 points · Posted at 18:58:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Mom I can't pause the game!!!
sageadam · 2 points · Posted at 18:58:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That thinking positively will not make depression go away.
coke_dude · 2 points · Posted at 18:58:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That for fat people to lose weight is as simple as eating less and exercising more. Or that they are lazy for not trying.
TheGynechiatrist · 2 points · Posted at 18:59:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Correlation DOES NOT imply causation. Ever.
pawelwny1 · 2 points · Posted at 18:59:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's "couldn't care less" not "could care less"
lizardflix · 2 points · Posted at 18:59:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Evolution. People seem to think that evolution just happens because that's how it happens without any understanding of the mechanics of why.
Numb3r_6 · 2 points · Posted at 19:00:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In America at least, our own fucking government and constitution.
DrDisastor · 2 points · Posted at 19:00:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Food. Almost no one has a good understanding of the food supply, how calories work, and what is "safe".
Source: I am a food scientist, flavor chemist.
CoreEzyah · 2 points · Posted at 19:00:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Treat people how you want to be treated.
doctor_yes · 2 points · Posted at 19:00:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
to question is not deny
TVFilthyHank · 2 points · Posted at 19:00:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You don't heal during duels on Dark Souls.
jnamauqa · 1 points · Posted at 19:05:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If only I had more upvotes to give.
BingoBingo1999 · 2 points · Posted at 19:01:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Wait for people to leave an elevator before going in...
Salvadorian_Viking · 2 points · Posted at 19:01:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The direction toilet paper should be placed on the holder.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:01:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That when choosing a hidden ball from underneath three cups if the guy shows you one empty cup and offers you the chance to switch you should ALWAYS say yes.
ranman96734 · 2 points · Posted at 19:01:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Slower traffic keep right... (or left if your steering wheel is on the wrong side)
tifuthrowaway007 · 2 points · Posted at 19:02:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Pepperoni makes your pizza greasy
czwren · 2 points · Posted at 19:02:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The military and how it is to work for the military
biEcmY · 2 points · Posted at 19:02:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Money.
teslacars · 2 points · Posted at 19:02:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The left lane is for passing.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:02:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you are merging on to the expressway, it is up to you to slow down or speed up.
hashtagchelsi · 2 points · Posted at 19:03:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Turn signals
Northface_Killa · 2 points · Posted at 19:04:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
left lane is the faster lane. in america at least
lightflux · 2 points · Posted at 19:04:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The word no.
tharealbigred13 · 2 points · Posted at 19:04:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Be nice.
Single_With_Cats · 2 points · Posted at 19:04:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Common courtesy. Common sense.
og_bobross · 2 points · Posted at 19:04:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
As a general rule of thumb, don't buy things you don't have the money for.
sti1inside · 2 points · Posted at 19:05:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That being an artist (art, writer, etc.) is an "easy" or "cushy" major/work field. You're very much at the mercy of your audience and if you freelance, you're at the mercy of people who think "writing/art is easy; I just can't be bothered to do it". $25 to proofread a novel is severely underpaying someone for work that is just as mentally taxing as doing math or any other "more difficult" field. This probably falls under the category of doing someone else's job but I feel that it's insidious because it basically devalues entire groups of people- especially college kids, who are already at increased risk for depression/suicide/developing health issues.
bearded_fisch_stix · 2 points · Posted at 19:05:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to adjust your freaking mirrors! hint: if you can see the side of your car when sitting upright and centered in your seat then your mirrors are not adjusted properly. you wouldn't have those giant blind spots if you pushed your mirrors out more.
FoolsFrenchFries · 2 points · Posted at 19:05:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The meaning of the word no
BoltzmannBrainDamage · 2 points · Posted at 19:06:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The other 10%
fskoti · 2 points · Posted at 19:06:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That someone disagreeing with your personal views on politics and/or religion doesn't mean that the are wrong, or evil, and that you and that person can still be friends.
Beer_Nazi · 2 points · Posted at 19:06:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Diet Coke isn't helping you compared to just drinking Coke.
Fucking stop drinking pop (or soda...you devils).
cryolithic · 2 points · Posted at 19:06:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Our own cognitive biases
greenfroggie1 · 2 points · Posted at 19:06:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That there is always someone who will think differently than you no matter how right or wrong you are.
TopSum · 2 points · Posted at 19:06:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to use a turn signal properly.
Godzilla_Fan · 2 points · Posted at 19:07:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Freedom of Speech applies to the government stopping your speech, not random non-government people or businesses
apennypacker · 2 points · Posted at 19:07:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That "it's a write off" for a business when donating or spending money doesn't mean they somehow break even or come out ahead.
dannixxphantom · 2 points · Posted at 19:07:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you are at work, you are there to work. Sick and tired of going somewhere and receiving shitty service, especially when you can see the employee standing around while you've been waiting on a water refill for 20 minutes.
I work in the service industry, I understand if you're busy, or on break, or the food isn't ready yet, but being blatantly lazy is ridiculous.
Boogerweed2 · 2 points · Posted at 19:07:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What a blinker is used for.
jeshi0821 · 2 points · Posted at 19:07:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
People still judge a group as one being instead of individuals. Not every police officer is a douchebag racist..
stefandraganovic · 2 points · Posted at 19:07:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Freedom of speech. All it means is the government can't interfere with you. Private citizens are free to do as they want. If you're blocked on a site your rights aren't being violated
ttailorswiftt · 2 points · Posted at 19:09:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What communism really is.
WesStrikesBack · 1 points · Posted at 19:14:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
True dat. The only commie to ever really read Marx/Engels was probably Trotsky and he ended up dead in a Mexican hotel room.
EmptyingMyMind · 2 points · Posted at 19:09:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Correcting someone else's typo/grammar in a discussion/debate does not make your side any more right nor does it make you smarter than the other
DAG00N · 2 points · Posted at 19:10:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
how water actually gets to people's house (sink, shower, toliet) and how much work is put into it. I've worked in the water industry for 5 years and the amount of people who have said "water comes from the sky, it should be free." still baffles me.
skittlemethis · 2 points · Posted at 19:10:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That they are not the center of the universe.
ThaFatChickThrilla · 2 points · Posted at 19:10:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
90% of the people don't realize they're poor.
mygrassisbluer · 2 points · Posted at 19:11:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The "zipper effect" when merging on the highway
JahRockasha · 2 points · Posted at 19:11:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The scientific method or how ppl come to a scientific consensus. If enough work us done independently that is in agreement or if studies are independently reproduced multiple times only then can it start to be considered legit. 1 or 2 studies isn't enough to show anything. As well as correlations don't prove anything. In that topic we essentially can't prove anything but only come to agreement that something is probably this or that. Understanding scientific processes allow the mind to see how life and many of its issues are extremely complicated and there are no simple answers. This is especially true for politics. If ppl disagree hotly it's usually because it's complicated and nobody has the correct answer because a correct answer might not exist. If we assume there is a simple answer we most certainly don't understand the issue.
KC_Buddyl33 · 2 points · Posted at 19:12:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to Zipper Merge in traffic/construction zones/etc.
anglobear · 2 points · Posted at 19:12:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Marginal tax rates.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:12:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
GravityTracker · 1 points · Posted at 19:29:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But that's because that Constitution operates in the domain of the Government. If an organization infringes upon my free speech rights, its not illegal under the constitution, but my rights have still been infringed. My rights are inalienable.
DownVotingCats · 2 points · Posted at 19:13:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yield signs do not mean "stop."
ApexYuri · 2 points · Posted at 19:13:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
BLM is a terrorist organization that is Anti-White and Pro Cop Killing
thesamjbow · 2 points · Posted at 19:13:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That losing weight isn't something you just do over a few months and never think about again. It's a lifestyle change that you have to stick with for the rest of your life.
ToughActinTanactin · 2 points · Posted at 19:15:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to merge in traffic
thebadlandz · 2 points · Posted at 19:15:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Turn signals
AMAstudios · 2 points · Posted at 19:15:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That taxes are important.
MBCnerdcore · 2 points · Posted at 19:15:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to spell "lose" anymore.
ImJustSadSorry · 2 points · Posted at 19:15:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When driving, if you don't have a stop sign (or red light), don't stop.
Ruining the flow of traffic can be incredibly dangerous.
BulldogOatmeal · 2 points · Posted at 19:15:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to use turn signals.
stromm · 2 points · Posted at 19:16:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In the US, Rights are CLEARLY defined and ONLY apply for US citizens.
If you are not a US Citizen, you have ZERO rights. You are a guest. Period.
You don't have the right to be happy. You have the right to PERSUE Happiness.
Your rights never override anyone else's rights and vice versa.
Anything not defined legally as a right which you think is a right, is not. Quit acting like it is.
Reality_Shift · 2 points · Posted at 19:17:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That it's ok for people not to be equal at everything. Why can't we just celebrate our differences? Men have a biological advantage for physical labor. Women live longer. African people are biologically better at resisting the sun and long distance running.
Most people would love to jump down my throat and roast me for those statements, but they're all literally a biological fact. I don't understand why it has to be controversial.
Malleovic · 2 points · Posted at 19:17:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That no matter how alien or ugly someone's beliefs may seem to you, they are a three dimensional human being who has a story and a reason why they act the way they do and say the things they say. There are no cartoon character villains in real life.
wrongsidestogether · 2 points · Posted at 19:19:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Let people off the train/elevator/subway BEFORE you get on. It will be faster and there will be more room, and you won't be a jerk shoving past people trying to get off the damn train.
Foe117 · 2 points · Posted at 19:19:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Jesus isn't white
shadowrun456 · 1 points · Posted at 19:21:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
FTFY
cisforcereal · 2 points · Posted at 19:19:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How I could just kill a man!
MeanMustacheMan · 1 points · Posted at 19:21:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
HERE IS SOMETHING YOU CAN'T UNDERSTAND!
c_larae · 2 points · Posted at 19:20:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
4 way stops
Nerdloaf · 2 points · Posted at 19:20:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Statistics. Literally.
W4llyb4lls · 2 points · Posted at 19:21:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Compound interest
leafsfan96 · 2 points · Posted at 19:21:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
something 10% of people do
MedicManDan · 2 points · Posted at 19:21:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That Emergency Rooms and Ambulances are for Emergencies.
pareeg8 · 2 points · Posted at 19:22:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Why gold is money.
Baadllama · 2 points · Posted at 19:22:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
THE PASSING LANE (IN AMERICA) IS ON THE LEFT. GET OUT OF THE PASSING LANE WITH YOUR SLOW ASS.
Shipmatewarrior · 2 points · Posted at 19:22:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
White nationalism is the same as the Nazi movement...
trippingbilly0304 · 2 points · Posted at 19:22:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
All the misery and suffering that occurs here and abroad is due to healthy capitalism
AnarkeIncarnate · 2 points · Posted at 19:22:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What Semi-automatic means, or how bloody old the tech is.
It existed in the 1800s, and all it means is the gun will fire one (1) projectile every time you pull the trigger.
It's not some powpowpowpow death ray, and they have fewer parts than revolvers.
One round fired, spent shell casing ejected, and another round loaded, ready to fire for each trigger squeeze.
Let's also add the ridiculous "mass shooting" hysteria that gets trotted out, incorrectly, every time something bad happens.
No, there are not 5 mass shootings every week in the US. They are still very very very rare.
Assault rifles != Assault weapons (made up term to conflate the two)
All rifles/long guns = ~< 500 deaths per year, or something like a 0.000149% chance of dying by one.
guitars4zombies · 1 points · Posted at 19:26:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
An evil black rifle with those scary barrel shrouds ate my dog.
AnarkeIncarnate · 2 points · Posted at 19:27:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Damn shoulder-thing-that-goes-up will get you every time.
ahopz · 2 points · Posted at 19:23:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The difference between "lose" and "loose". Please, dear Lord.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:23:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That you can read something on the internet you don't like, but others do, without leaving a comment that ruins it for everyone else.
AyeMyHippie · 2 points · Posted at 19:24:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Money DOES by happiness when you're barely scraping by with no financial safety net.
A_Ron24 · 2 points · Posted at 19:24:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sometimes your best isn't good enough and that you aren't destined for great things.
Sometimes you are destined to live a mediocre life and that's ok.
barryfc · 2 points · Posted at 19:24:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That humans won't evolve to lose our pinkies or grow larger brains. The number of people who misunderstand evolution is astounding. In order for a species to evolve like that, there has to be an advantage that enables certain members of that species to reproduce more effectively that members without that advantage.
This is a gradual process, and humans won't evolve away body parts simply because we don't use them.
nyintensity · 2 points · Posted at 19:26:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Don't be a dick
aBigBadKnapkin · 2 points · Posted at 19:26:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
We're all in this together.
iamnotsurewhattoname · 2 points · Posted at 19:27:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Boston left turn: left turn at a green light (not arrow) has right of way.
nixaw · 2 points · Posted at 19:27:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
e-sports
Thatanas · 2 points · Posted at 19:27:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sarcasm.
vertigo3pc · 2 points · Posted at 19:27:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Credit card debt.
AlexKurashenko · 2 points · Posted at 19:27:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
People don't understand themselves. For example, their own life prediction, strong and weak sided.
If you give me your full bithday date - I can tell you 90% info who you are))
jaekx · 2 points · Posted at 19:27:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
statistics..... lol
ElfPack · 2 points · Posted at 19:27:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Percentages
TeleGram · 2 points · Posted at 19:27:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Bitcoin.
kylerobertdrew · 2 points · Posted at 19:27:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Blinkers
insufficient_funds · 2 points · Posted at 19:27:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
An elected official being Impeached does not mean they were removed from office. Being Impeached means they have decided to have an official hearing related to the alleged wrongdoing of the elected official. You can be Impeached and even found guilty and still not removed from office.
manachar · 2 points · Posted at 19:28:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just because someone says something with confidence that does not mean it is actually true. In fact, people who are more informed usually make it clear that their knowledge is incomplete.
runi0008 · 2 points · Posted at 19:40:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You deserve a gold star for this comment.
green_villain · 2 points · Posted at 19:28:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Left lane is for passing
RedFalck · 2 points · Posted at 19:29:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That evolution is not a theory, it's a fact.
yktoday · 2 points · Posted at 19:29:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Chinese writing
azglr96 · 2 points · Posted at 19:29:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That in order to have your right to protest for your ideals (non violently) same goes for a person with the exact opposite of your ideals (non violently) no matter how disgusting their ideals maybe. As soon as you silence the one you silence the other.
koinu-chan_love · 2 points · Posted at 19:29:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Creeping up behind me isn't going to get you anywhere faster. You're still next. No need to crowd me.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:30:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Trump and his supporters are not white supremacists. Not all white people are racists.
JohnnyGFX · 2 points · Posted at 19:30:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Freedom of Speech in the United States only means that the government can't prosecute you for saying something, not that other people can't tell you you're an ass for saying it. Nor is anyone required to give you a platform to say whatever you want. So unless the government is prosecuting you for saying something, your free speech isn't being violated.
jdquinn · 2 points · Posted at 19:30:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That people have different values and opinions; not only is that okay, but it's necessary for a healthy society. Especially politics these days. I'm not stupid, dumb or uneducated on the matter because I don't agree with you. It amazes me how many people think the "other side" is clueless about the issue.not only is it normal, it's perfectly acceptable that others handle the issue differently than I would. Social services are very important and good to some people. Social services are enabling laziness in others' opinions. Both are valid viewpoints. Society works because we're different.
Don't get me wrong, if you believe in something, fight for it. But understand that the people on the other side of the battlefield are just as passionate, understanding and convinced as you are. They're not wrong, just like you're not wrong.
SuperSmartGuy768 · 2 points · Posted at 19:30:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The Federal Reserve has no affiliation with the federal government. It is a privately owned business, that creates and inflates the US currency. This allows them to create artificial scarcity which in tern allows them to control markets and people that rely on that currency. This system is a form of financial slavery.
MikeyToo · 2 points · Posted at 19:31:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Respect. Too many times I hear someone say "they disrespected me", when what they really mean is "I stuck my nose somewhere it didn't belong and got told off".
MontyPikethon · 2 points · Posted at 19:31:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Politics.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:31:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Calories in vs calories out.
It doesn't matter how much you run or work out...if you take in more calories than you burn, you won't lose weight
GravityTracker · 1 points · Posted at 19:37:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But if you're trying to lose weight, that fact isn't exceptionally useful. Sort of like if you were looking at buying a car and wanted to know the relative cost of gasoline. Imagine if someone said, the more gas you put in the farther you can drive.
rvatarheel · 2 points · Posted at 19:31:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to use the phrase "I could care less."
Naavi · 2 points · Posted at 19:33:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It drives me BATTY.
anthrometal · 2 points · Posted at 19:31:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sometimes being a nice human person is just being a nice human person.
thebestisyetocome · 2 points · Posted at 19:31:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Tax brackets.
I hear people complaining that if they start making more money, they will be taxed more and actually being home less. This is NOT true. Ever.
The only amount of money that is taxed higher is the amount that is above that tax bracket's threshold.
For example. Let's say (to make it simple) your tax bracket is 10% if you make less than $100, and 20% if you make $100-$200. So, now let's say you make $120. You do not have to pay 20% on all $120. The only amount you have to pay 20% on the $20 that went over the $100. You still pay only 10% on the full $100.
Naavi · 1 points · Posted at 19:33:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
OH! This is great to know actually! This applies in Canada too?
_superman1971 · 1 points · Posted at 19:34:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Bet you people will tell you that you're wrong.
czpz007 · 2 points · Posted at 19:32:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Taxes
Adsykong · 2 points · Posted at 19:32:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That I exist.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:32:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to yeild, NOT STOP at a traffic circle.
anthropoidz · 1 points · Posted at 19:43:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I just wish traffic circles didn't exist :/
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:55:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
True... They are the worst...
anthropoidz · 1 points · Posted at 19:56:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Does your name have anything to do with Between the buried and me? Most under rated band in da world.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:59:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Why it certainty does!!! They are the greatest thing ever. Colors 10th year tour this fall is <3
anthropoidz · 1 points · Posted at 22:15:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Shit yeah dude. That was a masterpiece.
mister_hubba · 2 points · Posted at 19:32:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Compound interest.
brickmaster32000 · 2 points · Posted at 19:32:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When someone posts an argument or correction on the internet they very likely aren't anywhere near as emotionally invested as people will imagine. A lot of the times it's not someone frothing in rage typing out responses but someone just as bored as you are who has nothing better to do than type response.
JoeBrly · 2 points · Posted at 19:33:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you want to describe some who doesn't like to socialise, the word is unsociable (or asocial if you want.)
It is Not anti-social. That means anti-establishment
drshockzo · 2 points · Posted at 19:33:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Evolution
bndeulogy2 · 2 points · Posted at 19:33:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The US legal system and police use of force policy.
punsforgold · 2 points · Posted at 19:33:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to fuck a coconut.
Luckywill159 · 2 points · Posted at 19:33:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Rocket science
lolbeans1994 · 2 points · Posted at 19:33:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That you can live your life without taking loans
Thelastonein · 2 points · Posted at 19:34:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
People have different opinions. The only difference is that many of them forget that you are improved by being challenged, being in an echo chamber doesn't change anything.
chrisisfunny · 2 points · Posted at 19:35:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The left lane is for passing only.
Socrates0606 · 2 points · Posted at 19:36:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
We should be educating people on how to think critically, not what they should think.
insaneHoshi · 2 points · Posted at 19:37:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That someone attacking someone's views and ideas isn't the same as attacking the person themselves
DukeofPoundtown · 2 points · Posted at 19:37:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
money only matters because we make it matter. You can be a very good person who contributes meaningfully to the world and be dead broke
creeperstew · 2 points · Posted at 19:38:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How f**ked up America really is and how doomed we are as a society
edible_aids · 2 points · Posted at 19:38:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That you don't need to immediately merge in the event of a lane closure or if you're entering the highway. Wait until the lane you're in is ending to merge. There are multiple lanes for a reason - use them.
People always look visibly upset with me when I switch lanes to enter the lane with less cars in it, and I fly by them on my way to the merge point and merge in front of all of the waiting cars, but that's literally how you're supposed to handle a closed lane. Why leave an entire lane empty while a long line of cars waiting in a single lane? It seems so simple to me but apparently not to many of the drivers, at least in my state.
xXSlipStrike1244Xx · 2 points · Posted at 19:38:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
it's not "timesing", it's multiplying
usedmuffin · 2 points · Posted at 19:39:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The left lane is for passing
oldirtybuckeye · 2 points · Posted at 19:39:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Four way stop signs
CBSmitty2010 · 2 points · Posted at 19:42:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How a fucking turn signal works.
/endthread
breethe00 · 2 points · Posted at 19:42:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How i could just kill a man
Run26-2 · 2 points · Posted at 19:43:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Statistics
13lackant · 2 points · Posted at 19:43:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Using solely the outcome of a decision to evaluate the decision is flawed
leonffs · 2 points · Posted at 19:43:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Proper research methods.
bstephe4 · 2 points · Posted at 19:43:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
accrual accounting. source: I'm an accountant.
vomirrhea · 2 points · Posted at 19:43:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Your server or the person behind a counter is a human being. Mistakes happen and can usually be corrected easily. you can't expect every person on the clock to be a perfect robot, so as the customer, just be patient and treat them with dignity
Gumbercules1 · 2 points · Posted at 19:44:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Merging. YOU CUNTS THAT GO AS FAR IN THE MERGING LANE AS POSSIBLE ARE THE REASON WE HAVE THIS TRAFFIC.
potter2010 · 2 points · Posted at 19:44:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A two or three percent raise isn't a raise if the cost of living has gone up two or three percent. You're making the same amount of money in real dollars and buying power.
No raise doesn't mean you're making the same, but actually you're effectively taking a pay cut.
Bumka · 2 points · Posted at 19:44:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Freedom of speech does not mean free from consequences.
slymiinc · 2 points · Posted at 19:44:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Getting into an elevator before letting all the other people out (really applies to any situation where you're going from an open to an enclosed space witch scarce room).
throw_away_3_14 · 2 points · Posted at 19:44:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The air conditioner has two speeds, on and off. If it's running, it's on. It won't get colder faster by turning the temperature lower.
JayDaKray · 2 points · Posted at 19:44:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Turn signals
PoisonousPanacea · 2 points · Posted at 19:45:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't criticize you because I want to point out your failures. I criticize you because I want you to fix the problems so you can be the best.
DABBERWOCKY · 2 points · Posted at 19:45:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Perception is reality.
VegasFiend · 2 points · Posted at 19:45:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The difference between your and you're.
Whawhawah · 2 points · Posted at 19:53:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Your not going to explain you'reself?
VegasFiend · 1 points · Posted at 21:52:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But then they'll know!
BrandonWard92 · 2 points · Posted at 19:45:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
that money is not real
Sabotage101 · 2 points · Posted at 19:46:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Critical thinking
SLYfox2713 · 2 points · Posted at 19:46:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You can disagree with someone while still respecting them
Btwn3and20 · 2 points · Posted at 19:46:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That you won't get a cold just because it's cold outside.
Part_Eggplant · 2 points · Posted at 19:46:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"Another dimension" Most people think it's a separate 3-dimensional space. No, that would be a parallel universe. An extra dimension is an extra aspect to reality; a further way of specifying its exactness.
cybertej2904 · 2 points · Posted at 19:46:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That legalising prostitution will lead to decrease in related crime.
ACRONYM_IT · 2 points · Posted at 19:46:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you're driving in the left lane, you should be able to tell me which car you're currently passing.
Pluto_P · 2 points · Posted at 19:47:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Google.
The results are personalized. So if you tell someone to just Google it, they won't get the same results as you. This doesn't affect simple things, but for more controversial/political issues this might have a large impact.
Also, Google doesn't make content, you do. So if you take the time to explain something on the internet, you contribute to the things Google can search.
Centipede_7 · 2 points · Posted at 19:47:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The difference between irony and sarcasm
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:47:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The person who says 'yes' to extra work in an office and doing things that are not their job are generally more valuable and more likely to be retained, given raises and promoted.
When it comes to letting people go, that raise you fought for may well work very strongly against you. At the very least you will be top of mind if not the top of the list when they sort through their people to make the choice.
Chopping list sorting, your boss may prioritize differently. Highest paid person in each category will go first:
Anyone currently on a performance improvement plan.
Anyone who has been on a PIP in the last year.
People perceived as having a bad attitude. Complainers and criticizers first. "Not my job" guy next, all drawn from the bottom half of the performers.
Now you get rid of any remaining low performers.
Then you go back to the next tier of performers and get rid of the negative people... etc. You stop when you hit budget or headcount or both.
ryanmcstylin · 2 points · Posted at 19:47:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
every single person you meet can teach you something. I spent 6 years teaching toddlers how to swim and I learned so much from them. I would say the most surprising one was when I told a kid we wouldn't have a lesson because I would be in Argentina. He listed off a number of cities and asked which I was going to. Once he heard Buenos Aires, he suggested I check out the traditional South American cattle ranching culture, take an hour long ferry across the bay (he knew by name) to the neighboring countries capital (which he also knew by name), or see a number of monuments and landmarks most of which he knew by name.
Apparently this kid was in the national geography bee and also gave me some factoids about various different islands and bodies of water.
Skkorm · 2 points · Posted at 19:48:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How the pop music industry works. The stuff on the radio is not the best or the worst. It's the stuff deemed the safest, the stuff that fits with current stylistic trends.
Edit: spelling
nwbell · 2 points · Posted at 19:48:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You have to be on the point to contest in Overwatch.
kraven_kapow · 2 points · Posted at 19:49:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Working in IT does not mean you can magically fix every problem with every technology that has ever been created or thought of by mankind. IT like most fields is specialized and people are skilled in the specific area in which they are educated or trained. Not to say someone cannot be trained in more than one area but usually you are not going to find someone who is a DBA, a net admin, a vb programmer, a web designer, and a fiber technician.
tablepancake · 2 points · Posted at 19:50:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Here is something you can't understand How I Could Just Kill A Man
Kinslayer2040 · 2 points · Posted at 19:52:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
upvoted for RATM.
ShavedWigWam · 2 points · Posted at 19:51:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That driving a vehicle on the road is a HUGE responsibility and should be taking seriously
PERZNpursuaZN · 2 points · Posted at 19:51:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
An escalator is not a ride. And if you're riding it, stand on the right side so the people with working feet can walk past you.
Dylan_McFraggin · 2 points · Posted at 19:52:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That the pop up on their infected computer to call "Microsoft" is not actually Microsoft...smh
mcstrugs · 1 points · Posted at 19:57:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Damn it, not again Grandma!!!
RNA2015 · 2 points · Posted at 19:52:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The pain stopped because the treatment is working. Stop the treatment and the pain will return!
Borderweaver · 1 points · Posted at 19:54:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Does this go along with taking all the antibiotics prescribed, even if you feel better?
RNA2015 · 1 points · Posted at 22:07:19 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Antibiotics are a rough topic! I'm a believer that antibiotics are thrown out far to liberally. Medically as long as the Dr is a good one and not a prescription whore then I feel like he prescribed something for a reason. Personally I am a massage therapist and I have people come to me to helpnwoth chronic pain. They come for 3 months then feel better and stop coming. The reason you're feeling better is because you are getting a treatment. Chronic pain is chronic lol it doesn't go away. But it can be treated.
rectumisprime · 2 points · Posted at 19:52:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Statistics... as illustrated by OP's question.
learn2fly77 · 2 points · Posted at 19:52:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That marriage is a bad deal for men.
SealNose · 2 points · Posted at 19:52:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When you are in traffic that you are a part of said traffic and if you just try to get yourself through it as fast as possible you are slowing everything down behind you
IThinkYoureARabbit · 2 points · Posted at 19:52:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
90% of people don't understand coding... even though it seems like 90% of Reddit seems to.
looogggan · 2 points · Posted at 19:52:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to park a car without taking up 2 spots. Not sure if it's because incosiderate, lazy, or oblivious. Nothing more irratating than coming home looking for street parking and seeing a curb that can easily fit 5 cars only have 3 because of incorrect spacing.
mcstrugs · 2 points · Posted at 19:53:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not every political decision has to be about the economy.
edit: or everything for that matter. Does it matter how a nuclear war with DPRK will affect the economy? Millions will die FFS! That's what matters!
bccs222 · 2 points · Posted at 19:53:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Lose is not spelled "loose." You lose a game, not loose a game.
Anandamidee · 2 points · Posted at 19:53:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That Conor McGregor is going to TKO Floyd Mayweather
Insert_Nickname_Hier · 2 points · Posted at 19:53:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That correlation does not imply any causality.
Orbo1 · 2 points · Posted at 19:53:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That counseling isn't just for unbalanced, sick, or "crazy" people. It can be cathartic and it's a great setting to open up and share. I'm glad I took advantage of it during college, considering it was free.
randymarsh18 · 2 points · Posted at 19:53:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How Trumps mind works.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:53:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
OCD(Obsessive-compulsive disorder).
OCD is an anxiety disorder that is quite uncommon and unpleasant to have; like having a bad filter where thoughts and sensations get stuck in a loop instead of flushing away, and irritate you until you try to flood your sensory system with rituals and repetition, until it pushes the initial thought away, and lets your mind resume flow as usual.
OCPD(Obsessive-compulsive personality disorder) is to do with obsession with order and planning. Not an anxiety disorder; people who have it generally see nothing wrong with it. Far more common than OCD.
CanuckCanadian · 2 points · Posted at 19:53:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
General relativity
LcsFletcher · 2 points · Posted at 19:53:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
R/me_irl
Ipredictyourdeath · 2 points · Posted at 19:54:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't drink diet coke because I'm on a diet. I drink it because I don't need 20 oz of sugar water in my bloodstream every day but I also like the bubbles and the taste of soda. That's why ordering it alongside a cheeseburger isn't some mind-stretching contradiction.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:56:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Ipredictyourdeath · 1 points · Posted at 19:57:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Exactly. Didn't say it was good for me, just said it isn't sugar.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:04:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Ipredictyourdeath · 1 points · Posted at 20:06:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You could consider sugar a dangerous chemical though. It's all a matter of perspective.
Camwood7 · 2 points · Posted at 19:54:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You can't be "jokingly" obnoxious, untolerable, edgy, crude, or a general asshole. You're actually just a fucking asshole.
TopsyKrett3 · 2 points · Posted at 19:54:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to use a turn signal.
TheGameN3rd · 2 points · Posted at 19:54:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"I CAN'T PAUSE AN ONLINE GAME MOM!!!"
bryangoboom · 2 points · Posted at 19:55:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Supply/demand. Perfect example is minimum wage in my eyes. In theory yes, minimum wage needs to be increased, however what people don't realize is that with minimum wage increased, people will increase prices on goods and necessities. In a perfect world, wage goes up and people can buy more. In actuality wage goes up and now apartments cost more because of people were paying it before, they can pay the adjusted price. It's shitty, but it brings us back to square one, where wage isn't the true issue. Cost is the issue. We need to regulate pricing on goods and services, but that's a slippery slope too. Where is the line drawn? Why is someone allowed to tell you that you aren't allowed to sell your product for what you want. Competition is fantastic in preventing this, but too many industries monopolize prices instead of compete for business.
CallMeLegs · 2 points · Posted at 19:55:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Steel doesn't have to melt to lose the majority of its strength.
kronicaim · 2 points · Posted at 19:58:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Turn signals
Valiuncy · 2 points · Posted at 19:59:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Trump is against illegal immigration not foreigners.
btao · 2 points · Posted at 19:59:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There has never, ever, been a single provable example of god, any god, in any point in history. Why are people deathly afraid of the unknown that comes with the reality that we are all here for no purpose at all, and we are what we make of it all?
lilmiss69 · 2 points · Posted at 20:03:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Having an open mind. Providing accurate sources for an argument. Getting over your ego and understanding that we're all in this together, trying to achieve roughly the same standard of comfort and living so when I have my blinker on and I'm trying to get over, just fucking let me get over ya cunts.
BrajjilianLove · 2 points · Posted at 20:06:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you are an introvert and keep to yourself, most people will think your a fucking asshole or a weirdo.
LanceTheYordle · 2 points · Posted at 20:06:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Propaganda is all around you in various forms and you likely have been indoctrinated on purpose or accident from something. Something you are 100% sure of is likely wrong. Keep open minds to other people's positions to be as self aware as possible.
TheRealSilverBlade · 2 points · Posted at 20:09:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"Freedom of Religion"
It grants everybody the freedom to be whatever religion they want to be, but that freedom abruptly and legally ends when you try to enforce your religious beliefs on another person's religious beliefs.
EVEN IF one of your beliefs is to kill those of other beliefs. Sorry, your own religion now impedes on another, and therefore illegal.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 20:09:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Evolution. Only about 1/3 of people in the US believe in evolution. About 2/3 say they do, but half have caveats, eg it doesn't apply to humans, or that God is controlling it like a puppet master (which completely undermines Darwin's insight).
Even of the people who say they believe in evolution, I suspect most of them really would have a hard time stating what it means; most have a cartoon understanding of it. "Scientists say that men evolved from monkeys" is probably all they could say (incorrectly).
Considering that the idea is so powerful and has such tremendous real world implications, it is a shame it isn't better understood.
Doobie-Keebler · 1 points · Posted at 20:43:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Does it really, though? I view God as a divine watchmaker. He set the system up, made up the rules, and set it in motion. I think He only occasionally intervenes, in those cases where doing so is necessary to keep the whole thing ticking. Apart from that, he just lets the system run.
Hell, even Albert Einstein was quoted as saying he was interested in science because he "wants to know how God did it."
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 23:16:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
He was being metaphorical. Einstein was not a religious man.
Getting back to the main point, Darwin's insight was that natural processes would guide the evolution of a population without any intelligence or interference. To say evolution is directed by nudges from God (the most intelligent of intelligences) pretty much abandons that idea.
Doobie-Keebler · 1 points · Posted at 01:59:11 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
As I said, I think He created the system. That means the beliefs are not necessarily antithetical.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 03:25:09 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm not trying to "win" an argument here, I honestly try to understand how you conclude that. Yes, you said God created the system, but then you said He intervenes occasionally.
Either you believe that natural processes are sufficient to explain evolution, or you think that God has to nudge it along. I don't understand how you don't see that dichotomy.
Doobie-Keebler · 1 points · Posted at 03:56:03 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I was talking more about those times when things happen just right to keep the world from blowing up. Like when the Soviets installed a missile detection computer that went off in error and recommended a counterattack against the US. The guy in charge was a fill in, and he refused to issue the order on the screen, preventing a nuclear holocaust.
Things like that.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 20:09:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Igotnothingatall · 1 points · Posted at 20:32:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Fruit is healthy sir
ashwrecker · 2 points · Posted at 20:09:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
People are different. Just because you don't agree with my thoughts or actions doesn't make them wrong thoughts or actions. I don't think that farts are vulgar, there is no such thing as a bad word, if your offended, it's because your stupid.
Feather_Toes · 2 points · Posted at 20:09:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Bitcoin.
mtvcrivz · 2 points · Posted at 20:11:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Bitcoin
Madllib · 1 points · Posted at 20:17:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My friend is a strong advocate for it. I'm one of the people who have read a few articles and that's it. I believe it's up to $4000 for one bitcoin now.
I guess one of my many questions is; if it really is the currency of the future, how do people move to it if it's already at $4000 a coin? Do people invest in portions of coins?
ljp3 · 2 points · Posted at 20:12:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You do not need to have an opinion on everything (politics), sometimes it is ok to just not care.
thegarlicbreadisgone · 2 points · Posted at 20:19:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How we pay for health care in America. 90% of Americans don't understand it.
Ticklish_Kink_Wife · 2 points · Posted at 20:31:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That 99% of sexual sadists only want to play with sexual masochists. Being a sexual sadist does NOT mean a rapist, psychopath, or abuser.
Seriously, any kinky person worth the title is more aware and careful of consent issues than the average non-kinky person. We don't want to drag non-kinky people in. That's wrong. We want to play with people who want the same things as we want.
People who try to "convince" unwilling people into kink, people who tell people how to be kinky "correctly" (aside from consent rules), and people who are unwilling to talk to you about your sexual preferences and make compromises are not Dom/mes. Those are abusers.
And Christian fucking Gray was a stalking, abusive asshole who tricked a vanilla person into a contract, stalked her, and ignored safewords. That's not a Dom, that's an abuser.
GreekFyre · 2 points · Posted at 20:33:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Pushing a button, for instance at a crosswalk or in an elevator, multiple times in rapid succession does not decrease the amount of time you're going to wait.
dragonthemagicpuff · 2 points · Posted at 20:47:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The importance of knocking on the goddamn door before you enter a one-person restroom.
NebulousTranscendent · 2 points · Posted at 21:02:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Socialism.
I'm not trying to indoctrinate y'all, but most people need to know the definition:
"Worker's control of the means of production and distribution of goods based on need [rather than profit]"
Therefore, Venezuela is not socialist because it's economy is ~70% private.
Also, there is nowhere in that definition that states that the state takes your shit and/or kill people. That may have happened in the USSR, but the "no true socialism fallacy doesn't apply" . If we're looking only at ownership of the means of production, saying that Stalinism is inevitable under socialism is as logical as saying that the only form of capitalism is fascism.
Again, not trying to convert people , or even debate them, I'm just tryna help people save time so they know what they are debating about.
datchilla · 2 points · Posted at 21:06:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The permits hunters buy to legally hunt animals, pays for animal conservation.
Nstangl52 · 2 points · Posted at 21:15:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Mac's get viruses too!
Working in IT at a college I can't tell you how many people come in complaining about how their mac is slow to find out it has literal thousands of viruses
mosqutip · 2 points · Posted at 21:15:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How I could just kill a man
CraniumSwallower · 2 points · Posted at 21:33:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to fucking say thank you
QuickGrimes · 2 points · Posted at 21:35:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The army of the dead is real. I've seen them and they're coming. I can't stop them, only together do we stand a chance!
antisocialextrovert3 · 2 points · Posted at 00:08:21 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
That fighting hate with hate only creates more hate. It's only when people receive love and compassion from those they least expect it that true change tends to occur and the flame of hatred can be extinguished
_oneofakind · 8 points · Posted at 17:24:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That the president does little to effect economics.
KenuR · 5 points · Posted at 18:03:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
*affect
Name_Checker_Outer · 1 points · Posted at 19:46:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Uh fect
Singood · 1 points · Posted at 20:00:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
FDR begs a word.
Danimals847 · 1 points · Posted at 20:05:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
On the other hand, when enough people believe it to be true, it effects their behavior. Thus, it's true because it is...
Azurephoenix99 · 3 points · Posted at 15:53:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That gang rape is a horrible experience.
Mode1961 · 3 points · Posted at 17:49:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Seriously?????
You think 90% of people don't already know that.
[deleted] · 10 points · Posted at 18:10:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
He's joking that 1 victim is having a horrible experience while 9 rapists are enjoying it.
starkiller22265 · 2 points · Posted at 19:11:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
People really need to remember the serious tag for askreddit posts.
blaghart · 3 points · Posted at 16:04:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The idea that you shouldn't have to suffer simply because you were born into a life you never asked for.
Every time anyone talks about welfare, even from the people who are fine with it, there's this attitude that you have to "earn" your right to live.
Ironically this comes most fervently from people who claim to be pro-life, but even liberals can't seem to have a conversation about the notion of giving homeless people a home or giving starving people food to live on for free, even though we totally have the means to do so.
nybx4life · 1 points · Posted at 19:26:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I've always had the idea that welfare was to help people get on their feet, and such programs should support people while encouraging them to improve, whether it's through job training or civil volunteer work.
blaghart · 1 points · Posted at 22:42:26 on August 19, 2017 · (Permalink)
And that's the precise mentality I'm complaining about. It's also how welfare is used, for the most part (though 30% of welfare recipients get stuck on it by the paradox of the system), but the simple reality is it shouldn't just be a social safety net for those who want to succeed in a capitalist system.
None of us asked to be born, and more and more we're approaching a society that doesn't need nor does it want people to fill jobs. This will throw into sharp relief how damaging the philosophy of "I need to work to live" is, in a society full of billions of people who never asked to live in the first place.
PotassiumAstatide · 1 points · Posted at 19:46:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Another important application of it: Parenting.
"You should be a little more grateful! Look what I do for you! [insert basic survival stuff you can't even do when you're 7]"
Uhh, ok, you brought me into this horrible world, which I didn't ask you to do, and you have the minimum decency not to let me die. Thanks...I guess? :/
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 14:14:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to drive.
bringzewubs · 2 points · Posted at 17:19:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What I learned in Boating School is...
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:10:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
BLANKITY BLANKITY BLANK
vikingzx · 18 points · Posted at 17:34:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Looking at Reddit the front page of Reddit today, that Socialism and Fascism go hand in hand. You have socialists posting pictures of Neo-Nazi groups saying that they're un-American because they're Nazis ... while completely missing that Nazi was shorthand slang for Nationilist Socialism. Or Antifa posting pictures of US military landings in WWII (Italy, specifically), claiming that those soldiers were the "original" Anti-fascist movement and implying that Antifa is the "modern version" when Antifa is recognized as one of the most fascist movements in the US, and has seen members applauding speech excerpts from Adolf Hitler because they contain many of the same goal points as Antifa's charter.
Turns out, you can be left or right and still be freaking fascist! Too many people don't know their history, don't see the parallels, and aren't therefore capable of looking in the mirror and seeing what they're becoming and what they represent. They simply think "Well, I'm on this side, and what we're doing must be right!" When really, what the outside is watching develop between these small groups is a bit like the Nationalistic Socialist party duking it out with the Soviet Socialist party members.
DubsOnMyYugo · 11 points · Posted at 18:46:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
...and the People's Democratic Republic of Korea is a republic and a democracy.
DryZebra · -5 points · Posted at 19:14:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is a poor comparison, because the DPRK is a democracy.
DubsOnMyYugo · 6 points · Posted at 19:17:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How is a one party dictatorship a democracy?
DryZebra · -4 points · Posted at 19:21:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How is a thriving democracy a dictatorship?
"Article 64:
The State shall effectively guarantee the genuine democratic rights and freedoms as well as the material and cultural well-being of all its citizens. In the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea the rights and freedoms of citizens shall be amplified with the consolidation and development of the socialist system." https://www.kfausa.org/chapter-v-fundamental-rights-and-duties-of-citizens/
That's from the latest constitution. Here's a video of local elections taking place. https://youtu.be/o7k9egJ04hk
Like I said, it's a bad comparison because the DPRK is a democracy.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 19:35:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What the fuck kind of smoke are you cracking to think that North Korea is anything but a dictatorship?
Their local elections have one choice available. They can't vote for anybody else but the assigned candidate. It's a ceremony. kfausa.org is a North Korean propoganda website.
DubsOnMyYugo · 2 points · Posted at 19:54:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's interesting that we are talking about a political group calling themselves something they aren't, and how they do that to mislead, and this person cites NKs propaganda websites to prove that they are what they claim.
DryZebra · 1 points · Posted at 21:20:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The kfa isn't owned nor operated by the DPRK. It was founded in 2000 as an organization to find the truth about the DPRK, as opposed to the outlandish lies told by westerners. If you want the DPRK propaganda site, that's http://rodong.rep.kp/en
DubsOnMyYugo · 2 points · Posted at 21:22:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Friendship_Association
DryZebra · 1 points · Posted at 22:00:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Uh yeah? Read the page. "Spain based."
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 07:51:43 on August 18, 2017 · (Permalink)
But it's based in Spain so it's not propoganda?...
Seriously either you're trolling or you're delusional.
DryZebra · 1 points · Posted at 13:03:00 on August 18, 2017 · (Permalink)
The DPRK recognizes the organization, and gives them the go ahead to rehost information and etc. It's not funded or operated by them.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:13:42 on August 18, 2017 · (Permalink)
Look, I'm not having this conversation. You're clearly either a conspiracy theorist or some deluded "anti-imperialist" communist if you're going to ignore the mountains of evidence that it is anything but a totalitarian dictatorship.
DryZebra · 1 points · Posted at 19:32:59 on August 18, 2017 · (Permalink)
NK news isn't an authority on the DPRK, they're not an official DPRK news outlet, nor do they have direct contact with the DPRK government. The NK news organization does almost nothing but rehost American news anyways. Why would you trust them as a source?
Clearly you just have no idea what you're talking about, and when your world view is challenged you just run away like the liberal coward you are.
DryZebra · 0 points · Posted at 21:09:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
National elections have one choice, a confirmation vote. The locals have multiple candidates to represent their autonomous regions. Did you even read the constitution I linked? It's pretty straight forward.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 07:52:30 on August 18, 2017 · (Permalink)
that's not a democracy
DryZebra · 1 points · Posted at 13:10:51 on August 18, 2017 · (Permalink)
How is it not?
Step 1. Local elections. Any person can run on any party ticket they choose with multiple candidates running for different parties. Each local is an autonomous region meaning that they have to be from that local area, and have ties with the community.
Step 2. Local delegates go to the capitol to discuss legislation, and every few years a handful of candidates is presented for various positions including prime minister (currently held by Pak Pong-Ju, despite what Google's propaganda says when you search for it.) And supreme leader of the military, held by Kim Jong-Un, and other important positions. The local delegates debate on who will best fulfil their duties.
Step 3. A vote is held within the united front to determine the best candidate each party believes will be the best.
Step 4. The results are presented to the public in the form of a confirmation vote. Voting for the candidate confirms the vote if a majority agrees. Voting against or offering an alternative can lead to an overturn of the decision of the parties.
Wouldn't it be great if America had confirmation votes? For positions like house leader, Senate majority leader, supreme Court judge military generals and etc. Instead of just having them be assigned with no public input? How is a confirmation vote worse than the non-democratic system in America?
DubsOnMyYugo · 1 points · Posted at 19:33:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
They are effectively a monarchy, the state has only allowed 3 rulers from one family over the history of DPRK. That is in no way a democracy. Elections are irrelevant if they don't allow peaceful political change.
It's a perfect example of a name not meaning shit.
DryZebra · 1 points · Posted at 21:08:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oh no, people vote for people they like and think will do a good job, not like any other country has had multiple family members, or served for their whole lives. What do you mean peaceful political change? There are multiple parties in the DPRK, you do know that, right?
DubsOnMyYugo · 2 points · Posted at 21:17:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You do realize that whatever North Korea claims isn't really relevant here. The point is they call themselves these things to be misleading, they are going to keep the ruse up on their websites and such. The Nazis claimed at face value to be socialist for most of their existence. If YouTube and the internet existed then they'd have videos of their "open elections" and a website espousing their socialist views. Just like those ones North Korea made that you linked.
North Korean "elections" are pre-decided ceremonies held for propaganda posters. The idea that North Korea has wanted one of three members of a dynasty in order for every election since the 1950s is laughable.
DryZebra · 1 points · Posted at 21:37:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What the DPRK says here is very relevant. But the KFA isn't run by the DPRK anyways, it's an independent organization. Nazis were called out constantly by Socialist states like China and the old Soviet Union for being fascists, and not Socialist like they claim. The DPRK doesn't experience this, except by Western liberals who don't know the difference anyways. The Nazis literally did have fake proof of their sham elections, which again, socialist nations called out. On the other hand, the DPRK's elections are held to be legitimate by China, Cuba, Vietnam, Laos, Venezuela, and a whole host of other states.
What's so ridiculous about a people electing the same person for multiple terms, especially if they're good at their job. It's not like the US has kept the same senator in office since 1959 or something. The US has also never elected the son of a previous president, wouldn't imagine it.
DubsOnMyYugo · 2 points · Posted at 21:41:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Who other than North Korea and this fringe organization likely funded by them agrees that North Korea is a democracy? By "Western liberals" you mean most of the world? I don't think Japan or South Korea believe they are a democracy, both are non-western with democratic elections. They also allow more than one party to win, unlike North Korea.
DryZebra · 1 points · Posted at 21:59:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I feel like you have no idea what you're talking about. There are 3 major parties in the DPRK, the worker's party (most popular), the Korean social Democratic party, and the Chondoist Chongu party. There are other minor parties like the women's socialist union. You're going to use the DPRK's old colonial ruler and a US military dictatorship as your benchmarks of democracy? Definitely a big negative on that one.
DubsOnMyYugo · 1 points · Posted at 22:06:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Front_for_the_Reunification_of_the_Fatherland
All three parties have belonged to this super party since 1946, which is lead by the workers party, which holds 607/687 seats in their legislature. You have to be a member of one of these three to be on a ballot. Since the main party controls the super party, you have to effectively have their permission to run for one of the other two parties. That's not democracy. Those parties are not independent of the main one.
Since you are such an expert, what is their smallest percentage of seats held by the workers party since 1946?
DryZebra · 1 points · Posted at 22:21:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Have you never heard of united fronts or something? It's not just a "big super party ruled by the largest party." A united front means multiple parties that have a common goal, I think in the US you call it "bipartisan voting." But that's still a democracy, right?
I don't know when their smallest percentage was, but I can guess it was in the 90s sometime.
DubsOnMyYugo · 1 points · Posted at 22:24:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
They control ballot access, there isn't some organization run effectively by one party that controls all the parties candidates in the US.
DryZebra · 1 points · Posted at 22:31:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
They control ballot access how? Do you know how the local elections are run, and how each autonomous region votes for its own local delegates, which can volunteer for any party? Just because all the parties unite behind the cause of removing the southern US colonial government, doesn't mean they are all 3 run by the WPK. They just all want the US out, on other political lines they disagree pretty heavily, and it shows if you watch or read any of the minutes from their congresses.
DubsOnMyYugo · 1 points · Posted at 22:39:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The main party has always held a huge majority, the other two have always existed for show. In a true democracy, with freedom of speech and open elections, that is all but impossible. The combined likelihood that they are that good at ruling that the North Koreans have never wanted another party in power and basically the whole world is lying about North Koreas political system is so small I don't know how to represent it.
DryZebra · 1 points · Posted at 23:10:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What does "in show" mean here? Are the third parties in the US "in show?" Because they never win?
Freedom of speech is a ludicrous ideal that can't exist anyways. Are you free to coerce under duress? Are you free to threaten with intent? There are a ton of "speech" that's not free.
DubsOnMyYugo · 1 points · Posted at 23:22:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What does "in show" mean? If you meant for show, I meant that they will never win and are just there to create the perception of a multi-party system. There is no organization controlling and limiting the third parties in the US, people choose not to vote for them. There is that super party in North Korea. The two main parties do offer different options in the US, and we change parties regularly. The Communist USA party is extremely unpopular because people here don't like their ideas. They are still allowed to campaign. What parties advocate any form of capitalism in North Korea?
DryZebra · 1 points · Posted at 23:32:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes, the social democracy party of the DPRK advocates an NEP style retreat into capitalism.
People don't vote for them because they're unpopular and people choose not to vote for them, they're still allowed to campaign.
DubsOnMyYugo · 1 points · Posted at 23:38:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, I just looked at their elections. You vote for the super party, so there is only one fucking choice on the ballot. This is the most ridiculous argument I've had, the whole time, they have one choice on the ballot, the seats are apportioned by the super party. So the election doesn't have any bearing on their actual representation. This is absurd, I'm done. North Korea is not a democracy.
Edit: also the capitalist party you referenced was taken over by the communists by the 1948 elections. They are puppets for display.
DryZebra · 1 points · Posted at 23:42:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I already told you that the national vote is a confirmation vote. The real voting takes place in local people's assemblies, and local people's committees where members of any party are allowed to run, and be made into delegates in the supreme people's assembly. Just because it's not identical to the backwards undemocratic system of the electoral college, doesn't mean it's not democracy.
GavelGaffle · 8 points · Posted at 18:42:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sometimes things can have misleading names. A peanut isnt a nut, a bearcat is neither a cat or a bear, and National Socialist Party = Fascism which is on the opposite side of the political spectrum as Socialism.
ShapesAndStuff · 1 points · Posted at 20:05:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Good answer.
NebulousTranscendent · 2 points · Posted at 19:05:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So anti-union laws, tax cuts for the rich, donations from private companies and Gerald fucking Ford -- wew, sounds like socialism to me!
arc31 · 4 points · Posted at 19:13:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The nazis were economically very centrist (neither collectivist nor capitalist). Socialism has nothing to do with how liberal/conservative you are.
UneasyInsider · -1 points · Posted at 18:33:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Firstly, it's National Socialist. And second, do you sincerely believe the Nazis were socialists? Do you know anything about the Second World War? Or politics in general?
Btw can I have the name of the school you went to? Providing you actually attended one, of course. I'd like to write a letter of complaint.
vikingzx · 7 points · Posted at 18:40:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
More than you, apparently. Dozens of books, including Churchill's own memoirs of the war and the lead-in to it. College courses on WWII. And crud, I've even spoken with people who were there, Germans and Americans both who remember the war and that era.
If you don't think that the Nazi party was socialist, you're smoking revisionist crack.
Given your level of historical understanding displayed in this post, I think writing something that involved critical thought may be a little beyond you, given you seem to have based your understanding of one of the most influential events of the last century completely off of internet memes and revisionism.
Do yourself a favor. Stop pretending you know history because you read a tumblr post about how Nazi's weren't really socialist and that's just some alr-right conspiracy, like chemicals making frogs gay, and go pick up a history textbook about the conditions that led to the rise of the Nazi party.
poopdog1000 · 7 points · Posted at 19:28:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
here's a worthwhile read: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/4ydl63/why_did_the_nazis_call_themselves_socialist_when/d6mykrr/
The Nazi party gained so much traction because it was a palatable alternative to real socialism, which many in Germany feared would be inevitable.
The common workers no longer had any faith in the destitute Weimar Republic, and seeing the successful rise of Bolshevism in Russia, opponents of socialism worried that the same would happen in Germany. National Socialism differed from Bolshevism substantially, making it a substantially improved prospect for conservatives.
In this sense, Nazism was a type of socialism, but in name only; he sought to appeal to both the left and the right by making a party that was theoretically socialist, but in practice was only tangential to real socialism.
Inside the Nazi party, the left branch leaned toward legitimate socialism, but Hitler himself did not support these ideas and upon gaining control, he essentially severed that branch of the party.
Hitler's suppression of the Stennes Revolt, and later the murder of Ernst Rohm in the Night of the Long Knives, are two demonstrations of his efforts to depose the supporters of socialism from within his own party. By the mid-1930's, Hitler no longer needed to continue with the facade of socialism, as he had gained enough political control and public support to forgo the attempts to appeal to win over the working class with socialist policies.
6and7 · 5 points · Posted at 19:29:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Have you read about the "Night of the Long Knives"?
The Nazi party did have a lot of socialist founders, but then the party turned on them and purged the party before WWII. Hitler was definitely not a socialist and at the end of the day, he ended up defining the party's principles.
DryZebra · 2 points · Posted at 19:13:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You're literally the most ignorant person in this conversation.
"Our adopted term 'Socialist' has nothing to do with Marxian Socialism. Marxism is anti-property; true [Nazi] Socialism is not."
"The great masses of workmen want nothing else than bread and amusement; they have no understanding of idealism; and we can never count on being able to gain any considerable support among them. What we want is a picked number from the new ruling class, who – unlike you – are not troubled with humanitarian feelings, but who are convinced that they have the right to rule as being a superior race, and who will secure and maintain their rule ruthlessly over the broad masses.”
Adolf Hitler
At least try to learn something about politics.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 19:50:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't think trusting Hitler's words is a good path. The man was known to tell a lie or two when convenient.
Instead, look at the NSDAP's 25 point program. IIRC, about two or three points could be considered "right wing" (things like emphasis on national borders and restricting immigration) and something like 10 to 15 could be considered "left wing" (things like trust busting, state seizure of capital, employment quotas, punitive taxation on financial institutions, etc). The rest is stuff that is not especially related to modern politics. (Mostly dealing with the unfair terms set during the Treaty of
ParisVersailles. (Had a brain fart)It's sophomoric to divide everything into two tribes of thought. The Nazis were Left when they were left, they were Right wing when they were right wing. They were neither when they were neither. (Left/Right is a terrible way to express political ideology anyway)
DryZebra · -1 points · Posted at 21:11:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My point exactly. Hitler lied, there was massive privatization under Nazi control. The only capital seizure was from Jews and other discriminated people's, not Capitalists in general, as a socialist state would.
Socialism is inherently incompatible with Capitalism by it's very nature, so your last sentence doesn't even make sense. You sound like some horse shoe peddling ignorant liberal.
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 21:16:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think you need to sanitize your data inputs.
[deleted] · -1 points · Posted at 19:33:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The Nazi's jailed and killed socialists and communists for their political opinions. You are delusional or entirely mistaken. Just because their name has the word socialist in it doesn't mean they were.
Tell me, who owned the means of production under Hitler?
ShapesAndStuff · 0 points · Posted at 20:08:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Jeez you really don't know what you are talking about.
ShapesAndStuff · 0 points · Posted at 20:52:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Jeez you really don't know what you are talking about.
PM_ME_YOUR_FACES · 0 points · Posted at 16:26:40 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Wow where's that daily thread on most cringeworthy insults when you need it
warpg8 · 1 points · Posted at 20:37:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No, you cannot be a left fascist. That's not how the political spectrum works, and your idiotic comment is bereft of any working knowledge of politics, history, or even a basic understanding of what socialism or fascism means.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:39:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is wrong on several accounts.
NonsensicalOrange · -2 points · Posted at 19:15:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Those Nazis are indisputably considered right-wing (as seen by their votes, representatives, beliefs, and friends), your point doesn't make sense. How can you honestly claim the right-wing protest is also a left-wing protest?
Can the left be racist? Well, Left and right wing is not a very good way to compare these political intricacies. Communism is tied into fascism, it can be considered to be on the far left as well (if left-right was only defined by community versus personal ownership). But the idea of a militant authoritarian government (fascist) is much more inline with right-wing politics, despite claiming to want smaller government it votes and promotes contrarian ideals.
Yes, anybody can be violent. Yes, anybody can even be racist. Yes, anybody can be crazy. The difference is, they would hopefully be a fringe on the left, while this right-wing nationalist nazi protest is openly supporting fascism, racism, and other horrendous ideals, and they are getting an awful lot of support from the right.
Jerk_physics · 3 points · Posted at 19:31:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's not what fascism means.
The left/right axis is closer to rejection/preservation of social norms than it is to do with ownership.
NonsensicalOrange · 2 points · Posted at 19:43:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Those nazi's who run around with the words fascists painted on them are right-wing nationalists.
I said IF the left-right wing is only considered public vs private ownership, I said that because I was pointing out that it isn't just about ownership, the old nazis probably weren't left-wing by modern american standards.
The right-wing want change as well, they definitely push policies and ideals that don't pre-exist, but they are certainly known for sticking with an antiquated set of beliefs.
SleepNowMyThrowaway · 9 points · Posted at 14:05:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How our currency system keeps them in debt and penury.
[deleted] · 5 points · Posted at 14:29:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Hypothesis_Null · 3 points · Posted at 19:04:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A lot of people are talking about the Federal Government printing money. But at worst that devalues your money. That doesn't leave you in debt.
The argument typically raised is one of fractional-reserve banking.
[deleted] · -1 points · Posted at 14:40:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
[deleted] · 5 points · Posted at 15:14:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
AgentElman · 1 points · Posted at 16:26:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It is marketing. The theory of capitalism relies upon informed consumers spending their money to get the most value for it. The point of marketing is to prevent that.
Sveet_Pickle · 1 points · Posted at 18:24:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
As my wife put it, "you know you've made it when you can buy/do whatever you want whenever you want." in other words if you can't buy that thing you want on a whim without having to consider how you're going to pay for it, you haven't made it in life.
guitar_vigilante · 2 points · Posted at 17:07:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's not how that works, like at all.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:17:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Any macroeconomics class will tell you you're right, but everyone has already accepted what he said as fact. Welcome to reddit.
guitar_vigilante · 1 points · Posted at 18:23:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Any look at the federal budget will tell you I'm right. The Federal Government pays for stuff with a mix of tax revenue and selling bonds to investors. Nowhere in there is the government writing checks to the Federal Reserve.
[deleted] · 4 points · Posted at 15:19:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
LibertyTerp · 2 points · Posted at 15:46:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The government owes the money to the Federal Reserve, a separate private organization. It's like the Iron Bank in Game of Thrones.
dubman42 · 1 points · Posted at 16:45:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The FED is a private corporation.
bigursa · 1 points · Posted at 15:48:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But if the US government was to invest that money in the economy, and economic growth were to occur, would the increase in the tax base offset some of the payment? Would the resultant economic growth not be worth the token given to the Federal Reserve, who is essentially a government regulatory body free from the influence of untrained politicians with, potentially, ideological or short-sighted agendas regarding the performance of the economy?
Why make one point, but not the other? Why examine, and subsequently criticize, one step of a multi-step process?
SleepNowMyThrowaway · 0 points · Posted at 15:02:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And it's important to realize the Federal Reserve is neither Federal nor does it have any reserves...it's a privately owned and run cartel.
guitar_vigilante · 0 points · Posted at 17:08:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It is Federal, it is accountable to Congress, and it does have reserves, it's literally where the banks keep their reserves.
SleepNowMyThrowaway · 3 points · Posted at 17:14:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You're quite mistaken.
guitar_vigilante · 2 points · Posted at 17:23:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No, not really.
guitar_vigilante · 1 points · Posted at 23:25:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So, how am I mistaken? The Federal reserve is privately owned, but derives its authority from Congress, is accountable to Congress, and is headed by presidential appointees who are approved by the Senate. It is certainly a Federal institution.
Banks have reserve requirements which are set by the Federal Reserve. Those reserves are held by the Federal Reserve. Excess reserves are also held by the Federal reserve.
So in what way is it neither Federal nor a reserve?
SleepNowMyThrowaway · 1 points · Posted at 01:12:07 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Believe as you will.
guitar_vigilante · 1 points · Posted at 01:28:43 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
What is there to believe? These are the cold hard facts. There is nothing to believe or not believe. Unless you have some source that shows how it isn't these things, then you're just full of hot air.
PsychoMonkey360 · 0 points · Posted at 15:01:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Fed printing money also causes value of money on our bank accounts to decrease
koopatwoopa88 · 6 points · Posted at 17:15:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That all religions are false, heaven and hell do not exist, we don't need religion to have morals and values, and the world would be a much safer and overall better place without religion
Kufu1796 · 2 points · Posted at 20:03:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"That which is states without proof can be dismissed without proof".
Religion made - and is still making - the world a better place. Idk where you're from, but I'm from the Middle East and I've seen people give so much when they have so little to help each other. Islam has brought quite a bit if stability to my home country when it came, and even now Islamic societies are helping to make Bahrain a better place and loads of the money they get is donated to help fight Isis. Very few terror acts were done by Muslims. I presume you're from a country where religion isn't that prevalent, but for me where it's part of the culture, I see the good it's done, and I see the bad. The good far, far outweighs the bad.
Even if God doesn't exist, religion brought us together and helped us.
koopatwoopa88 · 1 points · Posted at 21:23:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The link you shared only applies to the US. On a global scale, the numbers don't express the same sentiment. Saying that, I definitely don't feel that Islam is the only religion, or ideology in general for that matter, that consequently produces violent actors who carry out terrible acts out of propagation of their beliefs and principles.
Before i digress any further, I can certainly recognize undeniable universally good and moral, truly humanitarian deeds have been performed through religious people, most often out of a motivation to actualize the fundamentals of their beliefs and teachings. So, in the sense of the benefit to humanity brought about by specific acts done through the name of a religion (i.e. feeding the hungry, sheltering the homeless, etc.), good is, at times, a product of religion, albeit, strictly in the sense of utilitarianism.
Religion, in my experience and from my analysis of it, causes many more issues than one generally recognizes. That is especially true relative to the fundamentals of the Abrahamic religions. Misogyny, slavery, intolerance, and discrimination, to name a few, are concepts rejected on a world scale that are, at the very least, condoned by these theologies. In some instances, these ideals aren't only condoned, but are promoted, even integrated into the framework of the government. The result then is institutionalized hate. As a result, cultures then develope norms that are repulsive to those not subscribed to the dogmas.
The most detrimental effect, above all, that religion has on civilization and the flourishing of humanity as a whole is the indoctrination of the concept of faith. As in, belief without evidence, as well as the denial of scientific evidence due to its contradiction to sacred literature. In the western world, most of the laws and practices mandated by scripture are no longer viewed as reasonable or legitimate, mainly due to legislation passed, but more so because of a change in culture and perspective.
The fundamentals of religion are harmful to humanity and promote an ideology that will be the downfall of civilization if people refuse to genuinely invest in a strictly secular moral code and governing/judicial system based on science and logical reasoning. There is nothing wrong with anyone believing whatever they want to believe and practice, just as long as they don't try to enforce their beliefs and practices on those who prescribe to the contrary.
Do you believe that the laws defined in scriptures should be the guiding ruling force of governments? Because, from what i have seen, most people think that the laws of their particular religion should be the laws of their country, and that's the issue that I really have with religion. When one religion feels it's beliefs should be the ruling force of all people. That, of course, has been an age old problem. Having been the route of practically all of history's most terrible, bloodiest, and inhumane events.
Kufu1796 · 2 points · Posted at 06:07:13 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Hundreds of years ago, that may have been the case, where slavery and discrimination is applauded, but now it's not really applauded because of religion. Homosexual discrimination, for example, is a gigantic issue, mostly because of religion. Discrimination against homosexuals is wrong, regardless of which age, but religions don't really condone it anymore, they outright reject it(the church). Even in Islam, there's a debate about homosexuality, should the gays be killed? Should they be allowed to be normal citizens? The good thing about Islam is that you can find the leader whom you support and agree with, there are thousands of leaders and one of them is surely the guy for you.
The belief in something without proof is ok as long as it's not insane. A lot of Muslims and Christians I know believe in evolution, and other things that contridicts the holy books.
The fundamentals of Islam, for example, is really just to accept that God exists, and do XYZ in his name. XYZ being praying and fasting, and if you have the money, hajj(pilgrimage) and giving to those in need. This is the backbone of Islam. This is what every Muslim is required to do/believe. The Quran actually promotes challanging everything, and asking for proof. I can't remember the exact verse but it basically said, "Believe your brothers, however insure that what they say is truth".
Hell no. The laws of Islam or Christianity or Judaism should never be used in court. I think that our law should be fair to use on anyone, Muslim Hindu or atheist. Sharia law says that we should cut off the fingertips of a theif if he's caught. It's an old and outdated practice which many people(me included), find disgusting.
HorsemanOfWar · 2 points · Posted at 18:37:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
As the rider of the red horse, I have to say I approve of the ballsy move, as someone who actually knows the meaning of the word, I have to say, that what you just discribed is technically a religion.
koopatwoopa88 · 0 points · Posted at 18:53:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Only in an anomalous sense of the word, in the same sense that democracy is technically a religion. Ideology would seem more fitting. Yet, even then still, it's not even an ideology, but more of an introduction or intellectual invitation to an ideology.
spiderlanewales · 2 points · Posted at 15:40:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Debt has value.
pm_me_your_assholes_ · 3 points · Posted at 16:01:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Of course your PC worked an hour ago before it broke. That's the definition of: something breaks. At first it works, then it doesn't!
ttg_Krydder · 3 points · Posted at 16:24:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You can't pause an online game
webmistress105 · 1 points · Posted at 18:03:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
To be fair it is hard to tell at a glance if a game is online or not
CaptainNubcake · 3 points · Posted at 17:20:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The left lane is for passing only
nanmart · 2 points · Posted at 17:23:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The two party political system in America is an illusion. There is zero difference between a Yankee's fan, a Patriot's fan, a democrat or a republican. The Us vs Them mentality is everywhere. Coke vs Pepsi, etc. etc. etc.
It's all just to divide and conquer. The 1% control everything and sports/government/media/celebs are meant to keep the 99% preoccupied so we don't revolt.
Icecoldsomethingelse · 3 points · Posted at 17:25:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What you think is the truth isn't intrinsically superior to what someone else's idea of it is. No matter how good you think your information is.
LivingIntheMemory · 3 points · Posted at 17:31:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That a migraine and a headache are not the same thing.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 17:37:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
_aguro_ · 2 points · Posted at 18:00:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Gender Rolls is related to D&D, if I'm not mistaken?
catjuggler · 4 points · Posted at 18:11:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Gender Rolls are a food you eat a gender reveal party
TheNaughtyDragon · 3 points · Posted at 17:37:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
War and or disease are nesscary to control our population to an extent. Without either the human world population would grow beyond Earth's resources at a quicker pace than we can accommodate for.
Irelgbt · 1 points · Posted at 17:48:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's doing that already
KingRagnarOffical · 3 points · Posted at 17:48:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Violence in politics is horrific no matter if it is done by the left or the right.
TeenageRampage · 3 points · Posted at 17:56:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Bitcoin
dtom93 · 4 points · Posted at 17:56:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That I could just kill a man
its_real_I_swear · 3 points · Posted at 18:01:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Communism killed more people than Nazism
[deleted] · 4 points · Posted at 18:04:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Being a decent person, being kind to others and not being so self centered. Everyone I talk to has absolutly no interest in anything unless it pertains to themselves.
Sleekery · 2 points · Posted at 18:12:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Black holes don't suck. If you replace the Sun with a black hole, Earth will orbit it in the same way.
Fmeson · 2 points · Posted at 18:29:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
To be pedantic, replace the sun with a black hole of the same mass.
toxicmind86 · 2 points · Posted at 18:13:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That this "rape culture" stuff is bullshit, guys are against it obviously. But sick to death of being punch bags for every wrong thing that happens to a woman.
Also, a guy found not guilty isn't due to a broken justice system, or mans world. Lot of times they're exactly that, not guilty smh
menonmoon · 4 points · Posted at 18:15:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That we all die. And in the end, everyone will forget about your existence.
TheShadowKick · 1 points · Posted at 23:48:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Unless you're Gilgamesh. That bastard will be remembered for as long as there's an everyone.
Tgab170 · 3 points · Posted at 18:17:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That rust doesn't give you tetanus!!
Reinhardtisawesom · 3 points · Posted at 18:18:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
that time isn't linear. its more off a ball of wibbley wobbey timey wimey stuff
sph44 · 3 points · Posted at 18:20:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Bitcoin.
Judson_Scott · 2 points · Posted at 18:20:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Your job as a parent isn't to raise a child; it's to raise a contributing, self-sufficient adult.
If your non-disabled kid is 18 and doesn't know how to do their own laundry and dishes, how to read a lease, how to check their credit score, how to get a job, how to cook, how to manage time and money, how to avoid pregnancy, or how to open a bank account, you've done a shit job as a parent.
panoramicjazz · 1 points · Posted at 18:23:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"I'm not really good at talking to landlords.... Couldju do it?"
MrMallow · 3 points · Posted at 18:26:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Most Americans know very little about Robert E. Lee and they feel so strongly in their ignorance. Both sides of the political spectrum apparently care very little about history and would rather use him as an icon to further their political agendas, whatever they may be.
critical96 · 4 points · Posted at 19:33:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
(for US people specifically) "Freedom of Speech" does not mean "I can say whatever I want, wherever and whenever I want, without any repercussions of any kind".
The government can't criminalize your speech, but certain types of speech can make you liable for civil penalties and also be reprisals from your employer, private organizations and individuals, etc.
Thegymgyrl · 3 points · Posted at 19:48:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That the middle class is not getting poorer because poorer people are on government assistance. A skewed taxation system created by the rich for the rich is vastly more responsible.
lateu69 · 3 points · Posted at 19:54:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That liberalism is full of hypocrisy
SerCornballer · 7 points · Posted at 16:45:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you hate your job, husband, wife, social life or lack there of, it's not depression. You have a shitty life and a pill isn't gonna fix it.
Vyrmayn_Gothryn · 4 points · Posted at 18:52:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Depression isn't just clinical, it is often situational too, speaking from experience. I basically cured my clinical depression, but I still have situational depression from what's going on in my life.
You're absolutely correct tho, a lot of people have situational depression (that may or may not be easy to fix) and their doctor prescribes them antidepressants that don't do shit because their brain chemistry is just fine.
It can be hard to do it, but sometimes forcing yourself to fix your life is the only cure you need.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 21:04:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
MD or PhD?
duhastbutthurt · 4 points · Posted at 18:06:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The_Masterbolt · 0 points · Posted at 23:19:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No they haven't, you just have to pretend so you can feel victimized
duhastbutthurt · 0 points · Posted at 14:24:40 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
The_Masterbolt · 0 points · Posted at 14:57:44 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
yawn
You're on Reddit. There's a solid 70 percent chance that you're a white male in your twenties.
duhastbutthurt · 0 points · Posted at 15:47:03 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
The_Masterbolt · 1 points · Posted at 19:07:29 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
You don't know what bigotry is.
duhastbutthurt · 0 points · Posted at 01:47:30 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
The_Masterbolt · 1 points · Posted at 01:52:27 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
You realize you where the first one to bring race in to this discussion, right? The only thing I negatively summarized was you
Edit: I love when I come back through my post history and see guys like you have edited or deleted your comments
MetalHikerDrew · 5 points · Posted at 18:26:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That taxation is theft.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:49:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
https://youtu.be/hPVHzZB7gog?t=47m16s
wattsify · 7 points · Posted at 18:12:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The inevitable downsides of socialism
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:02:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Alright, I'll bite: What's the inevitable downside to socialism?
[deleted] · 5 points · Posted at 19:18:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:31:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Your going to have to do a much better job of not only showing how socialism causes these things, but how it will inevitably cause these things. 99% of socialists would say that capitalism is the source of scarcity, authoritarianism, corruption, etc.
Hell, I'll start. Capitalism is not interested in producing goods and services that people can use, but goods and services that would make money for the producer. This creates huge scarcity problems for populations that don't have the money and resources to buy anything. An example would be Flint where a population can't afford clean water and now they don't have clean water. But what, aren't they able to vote in politicians who can fix this? Well, they could in theory, but in practice, you need money to run a campaign. Instead, politicians are bought out by wealthy interests who want to protect their profits. Politicians are now corrupted and willing to tear away environmental and human health protections to protect corporations. This is hardly democratic as the top 0.01% are effectively buying political power and forcing their policy on the rest of us. What is called when 0.01% are in control due to antidemocratic practices? Authoritarianism.
NebulousTranscendent · 0 points · Posted at 21:54:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Are you kidding me? Capitalism is a system based on distributing goods for profit and nothing else. For capitalism, the need of a person is irrelevant if they cannot pay. That is why capitalism leads to starvation, death from poor water and death from lack of medicine.
TheGormagon · 1 points · Posted at 22:34:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
As does socialism.
Both are frameworks to achieve goals, not goals themselves. Neither system is inherently foolproof.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 19:26:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:33:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I looked at Venezuela and I don't see a country where the labor force is in control of the economic or political organs of their country. I see a despot that rules with an iron fist. Someone who uses socialist words but doesn't follow through with what they actually mean. They may have had socialist roots and intentions, but their goverment is no where near that now.
I also don't see how socialism will inevitably lead to Venezuela and not, say, Sweden.
Birds1010 · -5 points · Posted at 19:28:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Look at Norway, Sweden, and Denmark. They are some of the most successful countries in the world and guess what? They are all socialist.
Name_Checker_Outer · 1 points · Posted at 19:45:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not arguing for or against socialism here, just pointing out that all of those countries are smaller populations, generally one religion and one ethnicity.
Birds1010 · 2 points · Posted at 19:47:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ok but i don't really see why that matters. I mean, no matter what system is implemented (capitalism, socialism, communism) it's gonna be easier in a smaller coubtry. Doesn't mean socialism wouldn't work in a larger country.
Name_Checker_Outer · 1 points · Posted at 19:57:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I agree with the sentiment. Just saying this shouldn't be a reason to rip on the USA like Reddit loves to do.
Birds1010 · 1 points · Posted at 20:27:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah that wasn't my intention. I feel lucky to live here even with it's flaws. Just trying to point out that "look at Venezuela" is a piss poor argument against socialism.
JackRidgway9000 · 4 points · Posted at 19:06:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That there are only two genders and you can't decide what gender you are.
Bumaye94 · 7 points · Posted at 14:19:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That the proletarians have nothing to lose but their chains.
SmoothCriminalAMA · 7 points · Posted at 17:18:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And their lives.
The_Masterbolt · 1 points · Posted at 22:11:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Everybody dies.
aturnernator · 4 points · Posted at 18:04:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Damn commies walking into this post tracking red all over the carpet. I just had this thing cleaned!
Bumaye94 · -1 points · Posted at 18:37:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sorry I think I spilled the blood of the rich on your carpet.
Mahruta · 1 points · Posted at 19:46:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Concidering how all of the socialist organisations are "active" to bring it into life, It seems more believable that this is tomato juice
BeefVellington · -2 points · Posted at 19:37:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Helicopter.
Mage2177 · 4 points · Posted at 14:27:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That if every car gave two car lengths distance between them and the car in front of them, traffic would essentially not exist.
Cranky_Kong · 5 points · Posted at 15:41:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I live by this Rule and yet the majority of time the only benefit it has been is for people to jump into it and bumper to bumper the guy in front of me cutting the Gap back to half a car length again.
Don't these people have any idea about stopping distance?
Mage2177 · 1 points · Posted at 15:44:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No, they must drive down the fast lane until the last possible second.
Cranky_Kong · 1 points · Posted at 15:50:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It really surprises me that I don't see more accidents on my commute, considering how hardly anyone knows how to use the left lane apparently.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:15:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Some places respect the left lane more than others. I'd like to see those guys try that stuff in Texas...
TheDirtyHipHop · 3 points · Posted at 17:38:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
World peace will never be a thing. Differing cultures, ideologies, religions, lifestyles, socioeconomic class levels...etc., will never allow for it to happen.
slipperylips · 3 points · Posted at 17:49:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Neither will solving world hunger. If I my guns are bigger than your guns, I am taking your food and everything else that I want.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 21:02:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
+sociophats...
Tooluka · 3 points · Posted at 19:02:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There is no god or similar entities.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:57:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Tooluka · 1 points · Posted at 04:53:06 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
And this exactly why there is definitely no god. 2000 year old people, who created mountains of humanmade stuff, and they somehow stumbled on the true idea about our universe, all without any equipment? No, obviously the idea of god that can't be disproven by any means, even two millennia later, is a fake philosophical construct designed by priests to create doubt.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 10:58:46 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Tooluka · 1 points · Posted at 11:34:02 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Absence of belief is not a belief. The fact that I don't believe in pink-green zebras doesn't mean that I believe in yellow-blue zebras or pink-green elephants. And very very hypothetically pink-green zebras can exist, even today probably (artificially made) but that insanely ultra low probability only tells me that people who seriously believe in pink-green zebras are seriously misguided and whole idea from the start was human made idea, invented for nefarious purposes. Statistically and rationally speaking.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 13:09:58 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Tooluka · 1 points · Posted at 13:25:39 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well, god-construct is obliviously unverifiable, by definition from "the book". So if we will isolate this entity you will be correct. But as we can see god-construct has megatons of other stuff mixed additionally and that is obviously human artifacts. Therefore it is rational to conclude that a) god-construct is also human-made philosophical entity and b) it was specifically created by human as unverifiable by definition to facilitate pointless paradox discussions, such as this one.
If you think it is true - isn't god is stupid idea then? If not - why?
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 13:48:31 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Tooluka · 1 points · Posted at 15:18:01 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, it is going nowhere. Thanks for the discussion ;)
Snazzy_Serval · 8 points · Posted at 15:04:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What women actually want.
tioomeow · 11 points · Posted at 17:15:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Each individual woman wants something else. Just ask them
HachuPachu · 3 points · Posted at 19:40:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, it's as if they were people with different interests and personalities. Weird.
KenuR · -5 points · Posted at 17:57:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"I want a nice guy who will treat me like a person!"
Proceeds to bang Chad.
tioomeow · 2 points · Posted at 22:18:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
go back to incels
KenuR · 0 points · Posted at 23:21:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Go back to your straw man store.
tioomeow · 1 points · Posted at 09:06:59 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Lmao what strawman argument did i make?
KenuR · 0 points · Posted at 09:35:23 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
That i'm an incel, which would invalidate anything i say about women.
tioomeow · 1 points · Posted at 11:00:09 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you don't want people to think you're an incel then don't talk like one. Incel or not what you said was stupid, and also a strawman.
KenuR · 0 points · Posted at 11:01:58 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't care if people think I'm an incel rofl. I'm just saying your assumption is a straw man.
tioomeow · 1 points · Posted at 11:51:58 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
"A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent. One who engages in this fallacy is said to be "attacking a straw man". I didn't argue with you. You talked like a certain type of person so i assumed you are one. That's all i said
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 15:10:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Cranky_Kong · 25 points · Posted at 15:37:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
...That expecting relative directions for an entire trip from somebody like they were reading off your GPS to you is even more of a dick move.
Mapmakers amd Navigators have been using the cardinal directions since forever for a good reason, you do realize that right?
elljawa · 2 points · Posted at 17:59:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
it makes sense in instances where one could logically know what direction they are heading in, such as a highway or other type of road that marks the directions.
If im trying to find a friend on the street, on one that does not run perfectly north/south or east/west, and they say "oh im in the northwest corner", there is a 50% chance I dont have anything to orient myself by for that.
Cranky_Kong · 1 points · Posted at 14:04:00 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Wait. Hold on.
You can't tell direction from the position of the sun? Seriously?
That is like one of the most basic astronomical facts that we ever learn: Sun comes up in the east and goes down in the west. If you can even slightly estimate the time, you know where east and west are, and if you know that, then everything else is easy.
Seriously, you look at your watch: Oh it's 3pm, sun should be in the west.
Look up.
Oh there it is
And most roads are oriented on the cardinal directions.
Bingo bongo you have your cardinal direction orientation in less than 2 seconds.
Gangstarville · 6 points · Posted at 17:02:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But if I'm heading north and I am unaware of it, telling me "go north and turn west" is confusing. Telling me "go straight and turn left" is easier
Cranky_Kong · 1 points · Posted at 14:40:33 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Read this and never be lost again
Tosche2000 · 12 points · Posted at 15:27:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Wait, are you saying that you shouldn't use directions like East, North etc? The common method of telling people to "turn left" or whatever, is wrong.
[deleted] · -2 points · Posted at 15:42:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
inetensu · 10 points · Posted at 16:43:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Why? Do you not know how to find east?
jackel_623 · 4 points · Posted at 18:11:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Finding north is not hard. At all. Children do it at camp. On top of which nearly every smartphone comes with a built in-compass.
Tosche2000 · 1 points · Posted at 18:34:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Of course it only works if you know which way is North etc. If you know each direction then it would be almost impossible to get lost versus taking the wrong left turn. That's what I mean.
Of course these day with smartphones, it is much harder to get completely lost, I think.
[deleted] · 5 points · Posted at 18:26:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Or they expect you to have a grasp of cardinal directions like any reasonable person. If you're confused, ask them if you're going North to clarify your direction. Educate yourself and stop blaming people who try and help you. You have a fucking phone with a compass on it and google maps. Who gets lost these days anyway... you sound like an idiot.
CompDuLac · 2 points · Posted at 18:24:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Only if you are an idiot who doesn't know where the sun rises.
TheGormagon · 2 points · Posted at 19:57:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you can't keep track of four unchanging cardinal directions, you are too stupid to be driving.
clem82 · 6 points · Posted at 14:51:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Texting me and telling me to call you is counter-intuitive AF. If you spend the time to text me.....hit the fucking call button!
quiet_earp · 42 points · Posted at 15:23:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When I do this, it's because I want the person to call me at a time that's convenient for them.
TheRealHooks · 29 points · Posted at 15:45:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
and u/clem82 doesn't understand that.
Bobthemightyone · 9 points · Posted at 17:29:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I feel like we found the reverse of the OP's question. The 10% that doesn't understand what the other 90% have figured out.
shifty_coder · 1 points · Posted at 16:26:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When I do this , it's because I've already typed out and deleted a message four times, because I couldn't express what I wanted to convey in a coherent manner via text.
kcjg8 · 1 points · Posted at 16:53:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yea, I normally word it that way though. Op most likely meant people just texting "call me"
clem82 · -1 points · Posted at 15:28:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That is what a call is for. If it's inconvenient then they won't answer...and they'll call back once it is lol
CaptainMoonman · 5 points · Posted at 17:42:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If someone phones me, I assume it's urgent, so I have to answer. If it isn't urgent, why wouldn't they text me? If you want to talk, but it isn't urgent, you text them and tell them to call when convenient.
clem82 · -2 points · Posted at 18:10:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
IDK how did we ever get by in the 90s. Oh yeah, we let it ring if we are busy and then we respond later.
CaptainMoonman · 2 points · Posted at 18:25:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That was before the primary means of non-urgent communication was text message, back then it was the phone call. It isn't now. Texting is much more convenient in so many more situations that actually phoning someone is now rare and relegated to rarer situations. Talking in the phone disrupts what you are doing, stops you if you're using two hands, disrupts everyone around you, and removes a lot of the privacy from your conversation, since everyone can hear your half of it.
clem82 · -2 points · Posted at 18:25:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
completely disagree
evn0 · 1 points · Posted at 22:31:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Completely disagree with a list of things that accurately apply to a phone call? You can't have an opinion on whether or not people can hear you if you talk in public, silly :P
clem82 · 1 points · Posted at 02:03:57 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
You're completely out of context. so No
evn0 · 0 points · Posted at 02:17:44 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Nah I read the whole thread. Just saying that it's kind of impossible to disagree with at least 3 of the things they said with a stock phone (taking up two hands, lack of privacy, and disrupting others nearby) because they're facts. I could give a shit if you prefer one over the other.
clem82 · 1 points · Posted at 04:11:51 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
I am not entitled enough to stop what I am doing to pick up the phone, and it's actually a single hand not 2
Lack of privacy, no one is sayin anything where everyone can hear when it isn't on speakerphone so no disagree again
disrupting others, get the fuck over it. If it's disruptive then just don't answer. simple as that
The_Masterbolt · 0 points · Posted at 22:14:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That just makes you stupid, doesn't it?
clem82 · 0 points · Posted at 22:15:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I guess because you're that immature yes.
But the fact is I don't have to agree with your opinion, not everyone shares your sympathy. But hey if you want to act like a moron go right ahead.
The_Masterbolt · 1 points · Posted at 23:09:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
yawn
fauxmaulder · 1 points · Posted at 16:58:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Eh, sometimes I don't know why someone called and seeing a quick text like "need to talk about groceries, call after work" or something like that, it's easier and less distracting than listening to a voicemail.
McPebbster · 10 points · Posted at 15:46:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I actually like this. I know it's a modern smartphone generation thing that people make jokes of, but to be honest it shows some respect that I might be busy doing something or working thus being heavily interrupted if someone calls me. That's at least how I perceive it
clem82 · 1 points · Posted at 16:47:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
if you are busy how are you interrupted? It goes to voicemail. Win.
I am only 28, but just call me don't text me and tell me to call you. Just call
Explain the point of voicemail then if you are just going to text?
McPebbster · 1 points · Posted at 17:49:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's way more convenient for me to just take a Glympse at my screen instead of actually raising my phone to my ear (privacy / appearing professional) , be it for a voice mail or to actually call someone. If it's urgent, I'll call back right away, if the SO just wants to talk about their day, it can wait...
clem82 · 1 points · Posted at 18:09:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If it's not urgent isn't that the case of when a phone call doesn't have to happen and it can be a text?
McPebbster · 2 points · Posted at 18:14:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's how I handle it yes, but some people just call to chat.
Spazmer · 1 points · Posted at 17:09:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I would say go the other way, don't call me when you can send a text.
clem82 · 1 points · Posted at 18:11:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Agree with this. Nothing is worse than the "nothing call" but if you say "call me" then you have something you need to talk about so you can call..if it's an emergency you can send more in a text than "call me". If you say "call me" it's not important and it's something you want to know.
-Tom- · 1 points · Posted at 17:30:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I have friends who wouldn't answer a cold phone call even if you called them 3 times in a row (indication it might be urgent or an emergency) they will however return a call me text with a call....maybe if you weren't so shitty at phones I wouldn't get so angry at this. If I'm calling you it's because it's important...if i just wanna BS about something I will text it.
Lord_Ka1n · 3 points · Posted at 18:13:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The health, happiness, and lives of your fellow Americans are more important than profits.
OonaghFaerieQueen · 2 points · Posted at 18:47:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That people who cry racist are racist themselves.
People who identify as other than male or female are probably failing in highschool science. They don't correctly understand DNA and chromosomes.
People who disagree with the above information.
Knowledge IS NOT wisdom
[deleted] · 4 points · Posted at 14:18:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Our entire existence is premeditated on social constructions. All expectations of yourself and others have been created by other fallible beings. Just because things are the way they are doesn't mean they should be.
solidusoul · 2 points · Posted at 19:42:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Existential thinking or what my cousin calls "going meta". Happens when you see things for what they are. Life is harder when you don't follow the script though.
[deleted] · 4 points · Posted at 16:57:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
solidusoul · 3 points · Posted at 19:49:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I believe you may be understanding him wrong. If you think too much you realize how silly everything is.
Chinozerus · 2 points · Posted at 15:37:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Me. :(
Sadday4CANthr4thwrld · 2 points · Posted at 15:42:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Left lane is for passing
YaBoyDalton · 2 points · Posted at 15:51:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When I'm not in the mood to talk
ISHLDPROBABLYBWRKING · 2 points · Posted at 16:03:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Taxes
Power_Laces · 2 points · Posted at 16:04:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The difference between price returns and total returns.
Mauricejuhh · 2 points · Posted at 16:20:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That you cant pause online games
webmistress105 · 1 points · Posted at 17:58:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But there's a pause menu! Surely the real-time networked multiplayer game will pause if I press escape!
RedditConsciousness · 2 points · Posted at 16:41:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If 62 million people vote for an idiot, that idiot will become president. You can complain about the failures of other parties or the media or whomever -- and I'm not saying that entirely without merit BUT the actual blame for who is elected lies mostly on the shoulders of the people who were eligible to vote and either picked wrong or didn't show.
OPs_other_username · 2 points · Posted at 16:53:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
For parents, it's kids. If I may quote a Poet laureate and an actual prince,
"You know parents are the same
No matter time nor place
They don't understand that us kids
Are going to make some mistakes
So to you, all the kids all across the land
There's no need to argue
Parents just don't understand"
IGotSkills · 2 points · Posted at 16:54:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Empathy
Banyan_FL · 2 points · Posted at 17:03:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That you can't pause an online game!
Microtendo · 1 points · Posted at 17:27:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If my fiance tells me to pause destiny or Splatoon one more time lol
PessimisticOptimist1 · 2 points · Posted at 17:06:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
For the love of everything, if you have a 60lb bag of dog food, don't load it in the conveyor built you asshat. Load it into your cart with the barcode facing up and I can scan it with my rootie tootie point and shootie laser gun. Jackweed.
ozzie0209 · 2 points · Posted at 18:26:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I have to say you made me laugh out loud with your comment. So funny, so true and so well put!
MusicJOO80 · 2 points · Posted at 17:19:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Respecting the Church of Iron. Put your weights away and put them in the correct spot. I spend my rest periods cleaning the mess everyone left.
Tiber11603 · 2 points · Posted at 17:20:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That I'm right and they're fucking retarded
varin_ · 2 points · Posted at 17:20:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Mathematics
krink0v · 2 points · Posted at 17:21:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How percentages work.
Q-kumbr · 2 points · Posted at 17:21:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You should already have your form of payment ready by the time you move up to the cash register in the grocery store.
Ealynne · 2 points · Posted at 17:26:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The scientific method. Or what science actually is for that matter.
Harsel · 2 points · Posted at 17:27:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Probability. I've met too many people that have mentality of "It's 50-50, it either happens or it doesn't!"
y0y · 1 points · Posted at 18:30:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I wish everyone were required to read How Not to be Wrong in highschool.
HotPocketHomicide · 2 points · Posted at 17:37:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How King Crimson works.
Detective_IRL · 2 points · Posted at 17:37:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
People are responsible for the actions that they choose to make.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 17:37:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
ballsdeepinasquealer · 1 points · Posted at 19:53:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Is your name Jon Snow irl?
ACuddlySnowBear · 2 points · Posted at 17:40:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How freedom of speech works
Halofall · 2 points · Posted at 17:52:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You let people out then you go in. Easy door etiquette people.
jareed40 · 2 points · Posted at 17:56:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Percentages.
Number1452isnotahoax · 2 points · Posted at 18:02:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
To use your motherfucking signal
Markdor · 2 points · Posted at 18:04:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That the proper context of what they're saying is "I couldn't care less" when they say "I could care less."
bjarcher · 2 points · Posted at 18:06:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That the house won't get hotter any quicker if you turn the thermostat way up. If you set the temperature to 21 degrees, then it will heat up to 21, then turn off. If you are comfortable at 21 degrees, then set the dial to 21 degrees.
If you turn it to 25 degrees, it will not reach 21 any quicker. It will just carry on going past 21 degrees, until everyone in the house is too hot.
(There's a great peep show clip about this - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNqcuzUleNQ&spfreload=10 )
Vanxsquad · 2 points · Posted at 18:06:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You can't fucking pause multiplayer games.
am_I_a_dick__ · 2 points · Posted at 18:07:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
People always say jealous instead of envious.
userfriendlyyy · 2 points · Posted at 18:10:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That since we left the gold standard the national debt became irrelevant.
shanulu · 2 points · Posted at 18:11:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Taxation is theft.
OriginalDoug · 2 points · Posted at 18:12:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You cannot apparate or disapparate inside the Hogwarts grounds!
Zing_bot · 2 points · Posted at 18:13:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Modem vs Router.
I work in IT support.
SeizeTheseMeans · 2 points · Posted at 18:14:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That historical events often still have present day material effects. Like colonialism, slavery, segregation, etc. Just because these things are in a history book, laws were past, and "it happened a long time ago", doesn't mean all the problems these regimes resulted in are rectified. E.g. The current racial segregation of US cities such as Detroit is the result of historical forced segregation, racial violence, and economic factors which can be mapped back toward the times of slavery.
Edit: To down-voters, it may feel comfortable ignoring history and living in a bubble grounded by a false neutrality, but peoples' material circumstances resulting from history are the case whether you acknowledge them or not.
Kufu1796 · 2 points · Posted at 20:12:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Pretty much. WWI made the US come out of its shell a bit and actually help the allied forces. WWII made the US a global power, and they still are. You can connect the dots and see why X happens. The war between Saudi and Yemen is (partially) explained that Saudi hates Yemen because they supported saddam's invasion of Kuwait. Random stuff like this all comes together and we can understand why XYZ happens. We know the nationalism is always a terrible, terrible thing. A national started WWI(Gavrillo princip) and nationalism made one of the worst, vile group raise to power and start another global war(WWII).
subarutim · 2 points · Posted at 18:15:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That signaling lane changes and turns isn't optional.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:16:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Loosing weight is just calories in and calories out
legend-of · 2 points · Posted at 18:17:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Email addresses are not case sensitive.
burnt_scrambled_eggs · 2 points · Posted at 18:19:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just because a celebrity/rich person said something doesn't always mean it's right. Sometimes you gotta think for yourself.
thegr8estgeneration · 2 points · Posted at 18:19:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
We're not calling people we disagree with Nazis. We're calling Nazis Nazis. You all just didn't believe it until they started killing people.
john2kxx · 2 points · Posted at 18:20:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That taxation is theft.
You can argue whether it's necessary or not, but it is collected via coercion.
djs758 · 2 points · Posted at 18:21:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There is no such thing as universal for-profit health care.
victorz · 2 points · Posted at 18:23:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That 90 % of statistics are made up.
jeffmcd12345 · 2 points · Posted at 18:25:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Astrology is bullshit.
Doobie-Keebler · 3 points · Posted at 18:28:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Pfft, you must be a Leo. I can always tell.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:22:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Shut up you pot-headed stargazer.
EnumaFaker · 2 points · Posted at 18:27:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That hard evidence is more valid than a fairy tale
teacozyheadedwarrior · 2 points · Posted at 18:28:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Turn signals.
Bipolarruledout · 2 points · Posted at 18:28:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
r/bitcoin.
cloudmerchant · 2 points · Posted at 18:28:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Other people doing well en mass benefits everyone.
We're having a serious debate in Ontario right now over minimum wage. It's currently less than $12/hr and that's roughly a single dollar higher than it was in the 70s (adjusted for inflation). Meanwhile, cost of living has increased dramatically. In January of 2019 it will top out at $15/hr, which is a reasonable amount of money to expect to earn (~$30,000/yr).
I'm not debating this with anyone - minimum wage jobs are jobs, period. Thousands of people in my province are in minimum wage jobs, not just high school kids, and they deserve to earn a fair wage for their work. Minimum wage has never meant minimum exhaustion, minimum stress, minimum effort, or minimum work experience. Those people work as hard or harder than most and there's no excuse for paying them shit money.
With that said, our economy is predicted to see an uptick as a result of the increase, which means more money for everyone complaining about having to pay more to their employees. They just don't see it yet.
Perhaps another way of saying it: the mistakes of our government should not fall on the least of us to bear.
raven5464 · 2 points · Posted at 18:33:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You can be just a friend with a girl!
icedek · 2 points · Posted at 18:34:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Bitcoin
clondan1 · 1 points · Posted at 18:35:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
1 in 10 people seems VERY generous
beedis123 · 2 points · Posted at 18:37:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That drinking water is good for you. Were made up of 80% of that shit. No wonder you have a headache after drinking a 64oz coke and that large coffee you had this morning.
Gabbstarr · 2 points · Posted at 18:49:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You can't pause a multiplayer game mom
your_lord_satan · 2 points · Posted at 18:52:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Don't. Stop. In. Fucking. Doorways.
fishbowliolio · 2 points · Posted at 19:35:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Antifa are not the same as Nazis and it's a false equivalency literally being pushed by the Nazis to get mainstream support on the basis of liberal values. Fight terrorism, fight the Nazi scum.
THExDANKxKNIGHT · 2 points · Posted at 19:53:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just because "that's just my opinion" doesn't make it any less wrong.
somewhathungry333 · 1 points · Posted at 17:53:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Politics, most people don't understand electoral politics is a sham in all capitalist nations.
Protectionism for the rich and big business by state intervention, radical market interference.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHj2GaPuEhY#t=349
Manufacturing consent:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwU56Rv0OXM
https://vimeo.com/39566117
Testing theories of representative government
https://scholar.princeton.edu/sites/default/files/mgilens/files/gilens_and_page_2014_-testing_theories_of_american_politics.doc.pdf
US distribution of wealth
https://imgur.com/a/FShfb
http://www2.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html
What goes down in the US goes down in all capitalist western states, they all follow the same model of "politics as show" where the public has no input if you look at the research.
formerfatboys · 1 points · Posted at 19:11:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to drive on multi-lane road or highway.
If you are in the left lanes and people are passing you on the right you. are. driving. badly. You are the problem. Not the "speeders".
Similarly, when you are on the on-ramp you should be accelerating to the speed of other drivers so that when you merge you are doing so at highway speeds.
eesports10 · 2 points · Posted at 19:06:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That BLM is a terrorist organization
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 14:58:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
asdsdfgsw52qafaff · 1 points · Posted at 16:07:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
i 500% agree with this comment maybe
abqkat · 1 points · Posted at 15:12:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Luckily for my career, taxes. "Creative" and "interesting" are not words that are good approaches to doing your taxes.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 15:15:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
TheRealHooks · 1 points · Posted at 15:50:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't even understand what you just said.
JPhirestorm · 1 points · Posted at 15:21:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Mental Illness. There's a stigma too, especially for guys, but even the best intentioned comments seem to lack understanding. Hell, Even I don't completely understand it and it's been nearly a decade.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 15:26:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
if you spin your tires fast on ice they will loose traction
JonseyMcDanes · 1 points · Posted at 15:28:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
if you have a question ask google first
2cheeppie · 1 points · Posted at 15:28:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Statistics
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 15:29:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Statistics. Everyone I know just quotes them incorrectly, or doesn't know how to compare statistics or even apply them correctly.
Such as dying to vending machines vs dying to shark attack. It doesn't mean vending machines are more dangerous, it's a simple case that more people interact with them than people interact with sharks. The only way to do it is compare to the lowest value, I.e. 10% of the population put themselves in a situation where they can get attacked by sharks. If you assume 100% of people interact with vending machines then whatever value you get for people dying to vending machines has yo be divided by 10 in order to have a closer comparison of the danger between sharks and vending machines.
It's constantly on Facebook with people sharing racism or sexism factoids based on incorrectly applied statistics
Mariothemaster245 · 1 points · Posted at 15:29:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Which lane to go to on the highway.
xXPMMEYOURBOOBSXx · 1 points · Posted at 15:30:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Empathy
JDogg_of_RS · 1 points · Posted at 15:30:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That 90% of statistics are made up.
rabidhamster87 · 1 points · Posted at 15:31:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Your actions DO have any impact on other people... The things you say and do have an effect on the people who see and hear them. It's your choice whether that effect will be positive or negative, and just because you're anonymous doesn't make this less true or the other anonymous people less worthy of your consideration.
cowkong · 1 points · Posted at 15:32:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I work at Walgreens for minimum wage with no training required for the job. I don't know every about every product, which one is the best, and I definitely can't recommend any medical advice. I don't know why people think I've tried and tested every single product we have.
ksozay · 1 points · Posted at 15:34:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That some things are earned and some are freely given. Learn not to confuse the two:
Respect, Trust, Reputation, etc. - things you earn. Though you may demand or expect that they should be given. Some may choose to, some may not. But ultimately your actions decide.
Love, Friendship, Kindness, etc. - are things you are given. Though you may demand or expect that they should be earned. Some may try and guilt you, some may reject you. But these are things that are freely given and received, it is up to you, to care for them.
PotatoPopped · 1 points · Posted at 15:36:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Four way stops! Heaven forbid two cars arrive at the same time.
gorillathunder · 1 points · Posted at 15:37:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you want me to do a decent job of the task you give me, provide me with the right tools.
I hate my job.
austinmonster · 1 points · Posted at 15:37:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Most people don't SEEM to understand that you can control the way you feel about something. If you change the way you look at something, or change your level of attachment to it, you can change the way you feel.
sandermfc · 2 points · Posted at 17:28:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Can you elaborate on this?
austinmonster · 1 points · Posted at 17:56:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The most time-tested answer comes from Buddhism. Lessening your attachment to something lessens the suffering. However, cognitive behavior therapy has been around forever, and one if it's cornerstones is cognitive reframing Change the way you look at something, and you change the way you feel about it. We can all do this if we choose to, it's just that so few people actually choose to. They just walk around as emotional victims trying to change the world instead of realizing it's far more simple (and possible) to change one's self.
sandermfc · 2 points · Posted at 13:10:49 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's a very interesting frame of mind. Do you mean to say that you should walk around trying to not be attached to things? With a sortof indifference. Or is it more that, for example, once a negative thing happens, you shouldnt care too much as its already out of your control. Sorry if I`m misinterpretting.
austinmonster · 1 points · Posted at 13:45:53 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's really in all how you choose to go about it. A Buddhist would say that all attachment and desire will eventually lead to suffering. They will say that becoming detached from things (caring, but not overly so) will cause you to suffer. A cognitive behaviorist will tell you that once an event happens, you should look at how you are looking at it. If it's something you can't do anything about, then why are you letting yourself suffer? If it's something that is neither your fault nor your responsibility (the two things ARE different) then why are you letting your emotions get the better of you.
If you feel like it, head down and find a book called "the subtle art of not giving a fuck" It's a short(ish) read that is actually pretty entertaining. It kinda combines both of these topics. The author states that you have to CHOOSE what you care about. The problem is, we tend to care about things we can't control and don't matter instead of the important things.
sandermfc · 2 points · Posted at 16:53:34 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sounds like an interesting read! Thanks for the recommendation!
Grudge_Dwarf · 1 points · Posted at 15:38:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
History.
Brobatos · 1 points · Posted at 15:38:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Cereals before milk.
blacksabbath1970 · 1 points · Posted at 15:40:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That not everyone who smokes is a crazy addict that wants to quit. We actually enjoy smoking.
Ballzajizz · 1 points · Posted at 15:42:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The "world" does not resume itself to America.
There are, at least, 100 problems in the world more urgent to tackle than the petty issues we see every day in the american media.
ThatBritishPleb · 1 points · Posted at 15:42:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Communism is not totalitarianism
Kingoflowselfesteem · 1 points · Posted at 15:43:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Pressing refresh repeatedly doesn't make windows go faster
Mode1961 · 1 points · Posted at 18:01:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's not completely correct. There are times that a website can hang and clicking refresh can in fact make it load 'faster' than if you didn't hit refresh.
Agent_Orange7 · 1 points · Posted at 15:44:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A large number of their opinions and beliefs are objectively wrong. This goes for everyone, but people act as if they are right about absolutely everything.
oneplus_1_2 · 1 points · Posted at 15:44:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The difference between civil and criminal law. Stop calling 911 for the first one.
mad_redhatter · 2 points · Posted at 17:32:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Don't you mean the first? Should call 911 for the latter and not the former.
oneplus_1_2 · 1 points · Posted at 17:52:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I wish that I could give the excuse of English being my second language; appreciated.
Ali_Hakam_5124 · 1 points · Posted at 15:44:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That it doesn’t take money to make money.
grumpyold · 1 points · Posted at 15:45:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
marginal tax rates
Slapdad-fish · 1 points · Posted at 15:46:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Merging lanes
deniseconnor019 · 1 points · Posted at 15:46:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I began to consider a couple of the things this individual did, that made me feel so great and open to talk with him. In regular Buffer blog way, I thought of discovering some genuine science to move down a portion of the basic propensities this recently discovered companion had so imbued when conversing with me.
PM_ME_NUDES_OR_TATS · 1 points · Posted at 15:46:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Maths
eatatacoandchill · 1 points · Posted at 15:48:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Bitcoin is not completely untraceable. It not being backed by any government, physical object, or corporation is more feature than bug. It is not perfect, it was started as an experiment and whoa boy have we learned a lot from this experiment. Nobody has any idea whether or not it's a good time to invest, even though it really shouldn't be about investing. But it's always a good time to learn.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 15:49:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
History - taking a few courses in college and high school doesn't make you an expert. I mean can I say that I'm a scientist because I took zoology, evolutionary sciences and psychology in college? History seems to be one of the only subjects that people argue that they an expert on, but they don't have a degree in it or even studied it. Just because you watch the history show and watch a few documentaries doesn't make you a historian!
ridge91 · 1 points · Posted at 15:51:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to drive in the damn slow lane
black_fire · 1 points · Posted at 15:52:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
For lower, and frankly, bottom class citizens, no one cares about you, no matter what color you are.
redzimmer · 1 points · Posted at 15:53:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No clue. Guess I'm in the 90.
frogger_blogger · 1 points · Posted at 15:54:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That "a lot" is two words
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 15:54:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Electricity. Most electrician don't know how it works. But they can work on it.
Zombiegoose77 · 1 points · Posted at 15:55:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Truth is not subjective
bardisviable · 1 points · Posted at 15:57:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sadly, the fact that we are all humans, loving, and capable of cooperation.
l-ghost · 1 points · Posted at 15:58:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Bitcoin and altcoins.
Yesnonoyesnoyes1 · 1 points · Posted at 15:58:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The outside lane on a roundabout doesn't go to the third exit
sdjasx · 1 points · Posted at 15:59:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
https://cdn-theatlantic-com.cdn.ampproject.org/ii/w1200/cdn.theatlantic.com/static/mt/assets/science/PerformanceRatio_615.jpg these numbers aren't stereotypes google.
fiszu3000 · 1 points · Posted at 15:59:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
some forests are run like companies so that we get wood. A part of it is being cut every now and then and it get's replanted. It's not a bad thing to cut down a part of a forest. Let's enjoy the fact we can enter them for free.
HoloFlamingo · 1 points · Posted at 15:59:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The difference between a cord, a cable, and a wire.
barrbill · 1 points · Posted at 16:00:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
People don't understand just how much of 'reality' tv is scripted.
l-ghost · 1 points · Posted at 16:00:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
black metal
hjbvh · 1 points · Posted at 16:01:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The concept of marginal tax rates
kourtis · 1 points · Posted at 16:01:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
On an escalator, stand right walk left.
Isurvived2014bears · 1 points · Posted at 16:04:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The left lane of a road should only be used to pass.
Timecounts · 1 points · Posted at 16:06:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Excel and the consequences of using a free VPN
lessmiserables · 1 points · Posted at 16:07:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Basic fucking economics.
You can't handwave away things you don't like because you don't like them. The laws of supply and demand exist whether you think they should or not.
dudeitsmeee · 1 points · Posted at 16:12:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That 90% of the people will be proven wrong many times throughout their lives. We don't know everything, and never will. Always live like a student with an open mind. Let yourself be challenged always
Northnbeyond · 1 points · Posted at 16:12:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Common sense
From_Wentz_He_Came · 1 points · Posted at 16:12:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Stock splits. The value is exactly the same before as it is after.
namesRhard2find · 1 points · Posted at 16:13:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Exponential growth. The inability for humans to understand this when it comes to population, climate etc...
Doctorsass · 1 points · Posted at 16:13:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Goin outside in the rain doesn't make you sick
puckbeaverton · 1 points · Posted at 16:14:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You don't know what you don't know, and you probably haven't thought of all the possibilities. I just feel like most people are so willing to rule out possibilities.
You think black flags are bullshit? The US has planned them. Check out operation northwoods. Got all the way to the joint chiefs of staff before being shot down, involved killing quite a number of Americans to kick start the war with Russia.
We thought the folks that said the government was watching us needed tin foil hats, then along came Snowden.
If any paper were to come out against climate change, it would be ridiculed and considered not only false but dangerous, regardless of any review.
We are not gods. We are men. We are fallible, we make mistakes. And there are myriads of possibilities we don't consider because they're just too outlandish for our minds to conceive of.
Basically I think people don't have an open mind.
AlchemyWolf · 1 points · Posted at 16:14:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That most percentages on the internet are arbitrary and complitly biased.
_bluntbunny · 1 points · Posted at 16:15:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
basic human decency
PsychoDefectorDrone · 1 points · Posted at 16:15:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you have to say "I'm not trying to be an asshole" you're probably being an asshole.
the_loose_fish · 1 points · Posted at 16:16:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Me
thebigfc · 1 points · Posted at 16:16:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That to improve you have to actually recognize your own mistakes, so that you can learn from them and do better the next time. You get nothing from shutting down and blaming other people other than a false sense of self-satisfaction. I'm looking at you r/leagueoflegends :P
Melissa-Smith · 1 points · Posted at 16:18:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Traffic works best as a team sport. Aggressive/selfish driving causes people to have to brake at unexpected times which causes more slowdowns and increases everyone's exchange time.
yob-tvoyu-mat · 1 points · Posted at 20:20:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
https://www.reddit.com/r/TheseFuckingAccounts/comments/6ton4m/umelissasmith_4_months_old_sporadic_reposter/
Hysterical_Realist · 1 points · Posted at 16:19:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The difference between the deficit and the debt.
A whole lot of political debates would go a lot smoother if people could get that in their head.
shifty_coder · 1 points · Posted at 16:19:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Cellphone rate structure.
shikana64 · 1 points · Posted at 16:19:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Politics & international relations.
StickitFlipit · 1 points · Posted at 16:19:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Almost everything
syphilicious · 1 points · Posted at 16:19:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just because it's reported on a lot doesn't mean that it happens a lot. Sometimes it means the opposite, because it's the unusual, uncommon events that people like to talk about.
GilbertoDelTorro · 1 points · Posted at 16:19:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The left lane on the highway is for passing/faster traffic
Skuzzy_Demon · 1 points · Posted at 16:20:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
OPs question. (Haven't done the maths)
Most people have answered the question they thought was being asked : "What is something that 90% of people don't understand."
scottyfermotty · 1 points · Posted at 16:21:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In a public restroom, when I knock, say something so I don't walk in on you if the door's not locked.
yearightt · 1 points · Posted at 16:21:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Politics are not sports. Do not mindlessly hate and judge those who disagree with you. Discourse is the only way to progress.
PunkPrincess108 · 1 points · Posted at 16:23:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Basic pronoun usage.
shikana64 · 1 points · Posted at 16:23:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What 'literally' means...
etds3 · 1 points · Posted at 16:24:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Maybe not 90%, but you would be ASTOUNDED by the number of people who think my boy-girl twins are identical. "No, they aren't identical. They have st least one MAJOR difference."
SawtoothHorse · 1 points · Posted at 16:24:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A facist society and a communist society are essentially the same only differentiating with the ideology behind them.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 16:26:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'd say more than 90% of people think 'survival of the fittest' means you have to be really strong or even in good shape to survive/thrive.
nanoakron · 1 points · Posted at 16:27:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Statistics
KingMatholomewI · 1 points · Posted at 16:27:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Thermonuclear physics
_beetus_juice_ · 1 points · Posted at 16:28:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You won't pay more taxes on all your income if you make more. Just the portion of income above the breakpoint.
Example
If you make less than $100k, your income rate is 20% If you make more than $100k, your income rate is 25%
Let's say you make $125k. You pay 20% rate on the first $100k. You then pay 25% rate on the $25k after.
You do not pay 25% on the full $125k.
My_Seventh_Try · 1 points · Posted at 16:29:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Honestly speaking, poverty cannot be eradicated. We live in a capitalist society that thrives upon profit. As long as things are like this, somebody has to be poor in order to fill the factories, refineries, mines and farms. They need to be poor for us to be able to afford the things we have now.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 17:49:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
My_Seventh_Try · 1 points · Posted at 17:55:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm under no illusions that socialism will rise again and again. The thing is that I do not think that it will ever work because humans will always want more, this undermines the goal of bringing everyone to an equal playing field. Our innate greed will work against a socialist society in the long run.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:13:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
My_Seventh_Try · 2 points · Posted at 19:20:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Bro, that was a very well thought out response. Thank you for that, I've definitely got more to learn! Enjoy your day/night fellow Internet denizen!
Uncle_Bill · 1 points · Posted at 16:31:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That the weapons you use against your enemies will in turn be used against you....
People always advocating for force to be used to solve their problems because they are short sighted in this regard and lazy
jackwerner · 1 points · Posted at 16:32:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to use their turn signals.
grizzledoldsalt · 1 points · Posted at 16:32:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The exponential function
Bielzabutt · 1 points · Posted at 16:33:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Shrimp count.
HIGHER IS SMALLER!!
jfqs6m · 1 points · Posted at 16:33:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Turn signals are not optional.
culibrat · 1 points · Posted at 16:33:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
4 way stops
Catsdontpaytaxes · 1 points · Posted at 16:34:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What decimated means ;)
Portarossa · 1 points · Posted at 16:34:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Getting angry fixes very few problems. Just take a step back and a deep breath and ask yourself if yelling is really going to make anything better.
Once you've started yelling about something, it's really difficult to change your mind and see the other person's perspective without looking like a dick.
Melior05 · 1 points · Posted at 16:34:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
For some reason people don't understand why schools teach so many different "useless" things...
Shredded_Plastic · 1 points · Posted at 16:36:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The difference between socialism and communism.
zazzlekdazzle · 1 points · Posted at 16:36:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That the the intense personal chemistry and the "it's like I've known him/her all my life" feeling of instant familiarity/comfort is not a magical sign that this person is one of your "meant to be" mates. It's a combination of factors all about triggering familiarity built from past experiences.
I will give an example using myself, but I knew about this before this all happened. My husband and I grew up all our lives on opposite sides of the planet in cultures that are very different. However, we were both raised by mothers who came from immigrant families from the same part of Eastern Europe. Combine this with the fact that we met when we were both in a third, completely different, part of the world for our postdocs and were feeling a bit like fish out of water. Meeting each other, we suddenly felt familiar and comfortable because of how having this similar element to our upbringing formed our personalities and world views. Combine with this the fact that he bore a superficial but significant enough resemblance to Superman as he was portrayed by a young Christopher Reeve, my first crazy crush as little girl and, wham, insane chemistry.
There is nothing magical about this kind experience, and it's often why people repeat the same type of bad relationship over and over (repetition compulsion), or jump in too fast with people who end up being abusive.
SapphireLeprechaun · 1 points · Posted at 16:36:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Stopping distance while driving.
ProjectKurtz · 1 points · Posted at 16:37:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You can disagree with someone without them being the reincarnation of Hitler who wants to murder everyone, or a communist monster who wants to usher in the new Soviet Union. People have differing opinions, and it's okay. Instead of vilifying them, try to understand where they're coming from and understand their point of view, even if you disagree with it.
You don't have to agree with someone to hear them out, or be friends with them.
SlightlyUnderated · 1 points · Posted at 16:37:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Don't know about 90% but certainly applies to a lot of people: personal space. You don't need to be touching me to talk to me, leave me be. I understand a small tap to get my attention but beyond that.... Also please respect the fact that not everyone enjoys hugs, I can say hello and goodbye etc perfectly well from over here.
kppanic · 1 points · Posted at 16:38:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Zipper merge.
alphamacha · 1 points · Posted at 16:38:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Money is definitely up there. Not many people understand the concept of money.
Mode1961 · 1 points · Posted at 18:08:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Money is an agreement that your piece of paper/coin is equal to my product or labour.
Deadstories · 1 points · Posted at 16:38:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That smoking cannabis doesn't make you a drug addict.
Disc1022 · 1 points · Posted at 16:38:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Liberals, the Left, the media is evil.
nox514 · 1 points · Posted at 16:38:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Confirmation bias.
rockinrobynr · 1 points · Posted at 16:39:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Using turn signals while driving.
Jean-Caisse · 1 points · Posted at 16:39:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Post hoc ergo propter hoc
princess_myshkin · 1 points · Posted at 16:39:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That an ionic metal in solution from a salt is way different than the elemental state of said metal. This is literally where the anti-vaccine fanatics get part of their ammunition from.
TryAgainIn8Minutes · 1 points · Posted at 16:39:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Saying you could care less means you actually do care.
An_Unruly_Mob · 1 points · Posted at 16:39:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
League of Legends
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 16:40:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Disagreements are not usually caused by one side being ignorant or ill-intended. We often assume the evil or ignorance of others because it's convenient to write off dissent as invalid. It is also possible for opposing sides to both be right- too often politics becomes an exercise in denying the downsides of a position rather than arguing that the good outweighed the bad.
luv2fly352 · 1 points · Posted at 16:40:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The inept, incompetent, self serving United States Congress and i belong to that 90%. And so it goes.
I3uddy · 1 points · Posted at 16:42:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The weather report. Now, I may be part of the 90% but from what I've heard from people in the industry is that when the weatherman says there is a 50% chance of rain that doesn't mean that its actually 50% chance you will get rain. It means that 50% of the coverage area will 100% get rain. In other words it will definitely rain in 50% of the coverage area. If I am wrong or misunderstanding please inform me.
aphex2000 · 1 points · Posted at 16:42:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Foreign Exchange rates!
Sooooooo many people, from poor to rich, argue/compare the nominal value of fx rates against each other. It gives me brain cancer. Especially common when travelling.
‚thailand is sooooo cheap, i get 35 baht per dollar!!!!‘
stevenmc · 1 points · Posted at 16:42:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
With rights come responsibilities.
MadKin · 1 points · Posted at 16:43:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The benefits of owning a home versus renting.
vanin306 · 1 points · Posted at 16:43:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A few I can think of.
vanin306 · 1 points · Posted at 16:43:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A few I can think of.
basher2213 · 1 points · Posted at 16:44:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Personal Finance.
Well, maybe not 90% but definitely a large percentage.
Aschentei · 1 points · Posted at 16:44:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You can't rob a bank GTA style
Podcaster · 1 points · Posted at 16:44:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Might even be more than 90%.. but I never hear about people reassessing their perspective, attitudes and general relationship with the idea of death. You can spend your lifetime investing positive thoughts towards it so that by the time it comes around it can be imbued with such wonder, such intrigue and such enchantment that it can much more easily embraced.
YessumMasa · 1 points · Posted at 16:44:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to order from Starbucks.
jamaall · 1 points · Posted at 16:44:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The weather. Generally the only people who have some understanding of it are natural science majors and hobbiests. I hear complaints all the time about how meteorologists got the weather wrong. But they are giving predictions based on the data they have. If the data is wrong, then they will be wrong. If people want these predictions to improve, then support science and NOAA instead of allowing funding cuts. The US GFS is straggling behind the European ECMWF and this will continue to be the case until we can fund improvements.
Mode1961 · 1 points · Posted at 18:11:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It isn't so much that data is wrong, rather the data changed between the time they made the prediction and the time the weather was predicted for.
e.g. They say tomorrow we are going to get 2 inches of rain, except there is a 3 degree shift in the direction of the wind, those clouds are now not going to go over your area. Voila, no rain.
Deep_Thot42 · 1 points · Posted at 16:45:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The meaning of life, the universe, and everything.
thelordofhell34 · 1 points · Posted at 16:46:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
BIDMAS - order of operations in calculations. All those goddam people trying to correct others on those Facebook posts when actually both of them are wrong and the answer is blindingly obvious to anyone who can follow basic rules you learnt when you were 10.
kchuen · 1 points · Posted at 16:46:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Astrological signs, religions, Feng Shui, etc are just made up bullshit tailored to the dumb side of us.
TheMisiak · 1 points · Posted at 16:46:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
General safety rules. Unless you work in the field, people get mad at why there are so many rules to follow. Sorry if the elevator isn't working today, they're inspecting it so you don't die
MrZygote · 1 points · Posted at 16:47:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That making a backup of your data isn't something you have to learn after the first time your computer crashes
chumchilla · 1 points · Posted at 16:47:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you start a fight or a riot, people are bound to get hurt or killed.
CompControlled · 1 points · Posted at 16:47:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
that "you're wrong" is not enough to persuade people into stopping what they are doing/thinking.
Saying "you're wrong" is just basically just saying what the issue is and not why it is an issue, they need to know why it is an issue if you wan't to even attempt to persuade them to stop.
Hashrick · 1 points · Posted at 16:47:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Bad things happen to good people.
ArtsIntel · 1 points · Posted at 16:47:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Statistics. And it's only 40%.
weulz · 1 points · Posted at 16:47:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Proper use of the word ironic. The fact that most people use it incorrectly is ironic........ I think........ I'm not really sure. Nevermind.
BeastModular · 1 points · Posted at 16:48:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Both sides of the political spectrum are corrupt and don't give a shit about people whatsoever
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 16:48:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The other 10% of people.
inetensu · 1 points · Posted at 16:48:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Pit bulls kill more Americans than every other dog combined
Mode1961 · 1 points · Posted at 18:13:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It might be true, but that doesn't actually make pitbulls more dangerous OR likely to be dangerous. It's just that when a pitbull attacks , it will be more likely to kill NOT more likely to attack.
inetensu · 1 points · Posted at 22:42:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Even if pit bulls attack at the same rate as other dogs, the fact that they are more likely to kill when they do attack means they are more dangerous.
Explicit_Pickle · 1 points · Posted at 16:49:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A implies B does not imply that B implies A. I see people trying to make this argument all the time.
simpleone234 · 1 points · Posted at 16:49:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
North Korea, Iran, Syria are the only countries that are not part of the World Bank and a main reason we bomb them/threaten war constantly.
NetherNarwhal · 1 points · Posted at 16:50:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Quantum pyhsics.
Pieroman · 1 points · Posted at 16:51:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Animal agriculture is the leading cause of greenhouse gases and consuming less animal products or going vegan would help the world a lot
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 16:51:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Judge others on thier actions not on thier beliefs.
AgentButters · 1 points · Posted at 16:51:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The moon illusion
Aniket1234 · 1 points · Posted at 16:51:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
!!!!Aedi On
PS : (Hope the 10% gets it.)☺
haystackofneedles · 1 points · Posted at 16:52:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Common sense.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 16:52:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Being firm and direct does sometimes help you get somewhere when dealing with frustrating sales people/companies/whatever, being rude does not. And even if it does in the short term, you're the real loser in the long term (and probably short term).
I don't just say that because of things like "karma", but blood pressure, overall happiness (when you are rude or mean to people, you are in turn effected by that, even if you don't realize it, for the rest of the day or even a couple days in a negative way), etc. It's also a great way to make sure you can't really go to a company/restaurant/whatever again, unless you enjoy the feeling or people hating you and probably spitting in your food.
TL DR; Be firm if you need to, but don't be a dick because you're only hurting yourself.
thebeefytaco · 1 points · Posted at 16:52:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Basic economics. That's more like 95-99% though.
pervocracy · 1 points · Posted at 16:53:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Probabilities above 50% don't mean "this will definitely happen" and probabilities below 50% don't mean "this can never happen."
RedBanana99 · 1 points · Posted at 16:55:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just by installing the Yoast SEO plugin in WordPress won't magically make you rank in Google tomorrow.
stuntcock420 · 1 points · Posted at 16:55:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Driving slower is not safer.
bo_dingles · 1 points · Posted at 17:14:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I assume you mean driving slower than everyone else, because then you're right. The closer to the same speed everyone goes, the fewer accidents. But if you meant absolute speed, then everyone going slower would be safer.
spoonfedsam · 1 points · Posted at 16:56:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Mental illness
skaag · 1 points · Posted at 16:56:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ponzi schemes
A_Math_Debater · 1 points · Posted at 16:56:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Nuclear power is the best option for powering our future.
Sgtonearm01 · 1 points · Posted at 16:57:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You don't buy 50 lotto tickets with a giant line of people waiting to pay to get gas.
FiveFingeredKing · 1 points · Posted at 16:57:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Never stick your dick in crazy or let crazy stick it's dick in you
P0RKCHOP3XPRESS · 1 points · Posted at 16:57:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Law Enforcement (at least in the US). I work for a midsize city in a low income high crime area. I am the first to admit that we have bad apples and there are so many things that we can improve on. I think this goes for any profession, but when I am really bothered when I see somebody commenting on subjects and the only experience and education they have is from television with the movies.
I constantly reach out to local media, critics, neighborhood and Community leaders and invite them to do right along's with me. My city is busy enough that I can usually get them involved in some critical incident or use of force (witness, not actually involved ) and can explain why we do what we do. I try to educate them on use of force practices, why we do not use warning shots, shooting to injure, or why a taser is or isn't sometimes the best option. I've been doing this for years and it has been wildly successful. I have not had a single person who has approached the issue open minded and or with some degree of reasonableness not become a supporter of local law-enforcement. Our job is so much better and for filling when we have community support. Luckily for me, despite the area I work and we have very good community support. But it comes and goes. We lost it due to an unfortunate incident several years ago but have since recovered and I can't have good relations with the public. I think if more people actually investigated and gave the time to truly understand some of the issues, it would be a much better situation.
Wear your seatbelt.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 16:57:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That religion is a mental illness/detriment to our society
7rieuth · 1 points · Posted at 16:57:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I work at a Chinese fast food restaurant. We packaged our individual combos in brown paper lunch bags. The combos come in those standard hinged styrofoam containers.
Now I shit you not, when I hand them the bag horizontally, for whatever reason, only god knows why, they always grab the end of the bag and hold it vertically, which causes the contents of the styrofoam container to spill out.
BaconCPA · 1 points · Posted at 16:57:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Taxes. I'm a CPA and don't understand half the time
nosyIT · 1 points · Posted at 16:57:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My mom doesn't understand the invalidity of anecdotal evidence.
Bee_planetoid · 1 points · Posted at 16:58:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Bitcoin
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 16:58:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Given the recent "what works well in theory but not practice" thread, leftist ideology. Think what you want about leftist ideology and how well it works in practice, that can be debated. You should, however, understand it first.
Edit: a good litmus test- do the workers control the means of production in this country? If no, then it is not communist in any sense of the word (oh hur hur "one more try"™ sure is an argument) despite what the crazy authoritarian leader calls it
TheM0hawkMan · 1 points · Posted at 16:58:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Differential Equations
Bassoonbigot · 1 points · Posted at 16:58:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You can learn something from anyone regardless of education, age, race, sex, etc.
worsttrousers · 1 points · Posted at 16:58:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You need to listen to people if you want to improve your relationships
peanutbutterpandapuf · 1 points · Posted at 16:58:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
To just be a decent human being.
MoreLikeZelDUH · 1 points · Posted at 17:00:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Common courtesy when driving on the interstate. If you're outside of the city, the left lane is for passing. Don't drive in that lane, and for the love of god, don't be in that lane driving the same speed as the right lane. If you're in the city, the right hand lane is for merging. Don't drive in that lane unless you are merging onto or exiting the interstate. There's a reason there is 3+ lanes there.
MadMan001 · 1 points · Posted at 17:00:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Quantum Mechanics
Julia526 · 1 points · Posted at 17:00:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just because you're loud about your opinion, does no mean others will always agree with you.
HTRK74JR · 1 points · Posted at 17:00:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to use a fucking turn signal
clem145 · 1 points · Posted at 17:01:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
After you've finished overtaking the car in front of you, move the fuck over and don't hog up the lane.
MarsNirgal · 1 points · Posted at 17:01:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Scientists don't use the word "theory" in the same way most people use it.
Rawrbomb · 1 points · Posted at 17:01:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How Credit Card payments and refunds work.
TheCastro · 1 points · Posted at 17:01:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That the President isn't some sort of King that controls all of America.
Mode1961 · 1 points · Posted at 18:17:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I live in Canada and in fact, Our PM is closer to a dictator than the US president , much closer. Up here, if you were to vote against your party in a bill/legislation you probably won't even be allowed to run for that party next time and more likely than not you will be removed from the party right away and must sit as an independent basically meaning you will little to no power to help your constituents.
TheCastro · 1 points · Posted at 18:31:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's like congressional party lines here where your party won't help you run if you don't vote with them. But yea, a PM is more more powerful, but can be removed more easily if I'm not mistaken.
Mode1961 · 1 points · Posted at 18:34:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In theory yes, in reality though I am not so sure.
djp1968 · 1 points · Posted at 17:01:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Freedom of speech means the government won't arrest you for saying (most) things. It doesn't mean you can say whatever you want and everyone needs to accept it without any repercussions or ramifications.
dclivesound · 1 points · Posted at 17:02:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Grammar.
brungo · 1 points · Posted at 17:02:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Being single isn't a bad thing.
DizzyAcrobat444 · 1 points · Posted at 17:02:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Buttons don't work better if you push harder/more quickly.
SterlingKato · 1 points · Posted at 17:02:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Using a turn signal.
RandaZzoo · 1 points · Posted at 17:02:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Driving
pounces · 1 points · Posted at 17:02:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The verb "to lie" as in "lie down" is conjugated the same ways as "to lie" as in make a false statement. Most people I know incorrectly use the verb "to lay" (which should be used with an object) when they mean "to lie down".
Incorrect: I was laying on the beach.
Correct: I was lying on the beach.
Correct: I laid the baby down in the crib.
Correct: I laid myself down on the bed. (myself is the object)
Correct: The hen laid an egg and lied down on top of it.
chuckarooni · 1 points · Posted at 17:02:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
General and Special Relativity.
Or just the general mechanisms of quantum mechanics.
bse50 · 1 points · Posted at 17:03:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
True despair.
Xalteox · 1 points · Posted at 17:05:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Radiation. Most have no idea how it works, why it is dangerous, instead it has become one of society’s biggest boogeymen and people cower in fear when hearing the word.
lostatsea93 · 1 points · Posted at 17:05:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The men or women who want to date/marry their version of a "10". So, like, super hot, wealthy, successful volunteer wrapped in money and dipped in gold. What people dont get is that usually people like that at least go with someone on their level to some extent. What do you bring to the table?
Grill_Pan · 1 points · Posted at 17:05:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Windmills do not work that way, good night.
emjobo · 1 points · Posted at 17:05:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to talk to one another. It is possible to have open and honest communication without taking it personally, getting defensive, or turning it into a fight. My healthiest friendships are those in which we can mutually call each other out our each other's BS and give good, honest advice, even when we know it might not be something the other wants to hear.
ghostar · 1 points · Posted at 17:06:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The Pareto Principle, am I right?
SomethingLessEdgy · 1 points · Posted at 17:06:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The political chaos we have going on right now and it's source.
SomeRedditUserDude · 1 points · Posted at 17:06:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The blood in your veins is not blue. Your blood does not turn red when it hits oxygen, its always red.
KENincognito · 1 points · Posted at 17:07:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How highways are supposed to work. Merging into traffic, using the left lane for passing, etc.
Iboughtcheeseonce · 1 points · Posted at 17:07:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Dont walk near thermal fissures at yellowstone national park
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:07:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Free speech does not mean you can't be fired for things you say or post on public forums.
robrossiter · 1 points · Posted at 17:07:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
BASIC LOGIC.
justarandomlass · 1 points · Posted at 17:08:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Lllllllllllllllllwe1a@æâ
occasionalwisdom · 1 points · Posted at 17:08:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Getting a payrise of 2% while inflation is at 3% means you didn't get a payrise.
ascitiesburn69 · 1 points · Posted at 17:12:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is true, however getting a raise of 0% means you REALLY didn't get a raise.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 17:14:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
2% is an increase when compared to no increase, instead of losing the value of money by 3% you only lost value by 1%. That's because your pay increased.
Similarly, if yesterday your stocks were 10% down from when purchased and today are only down 5% they increased in value, but still a lose.
tinker79 · 1 points · Posted at 17:08:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Turning the thermostat down won't make the air conditioner cool the room faster
Polar_Bean · 1 points · Posted at 17:08:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Turn signals exist and should be used
Bakunin420 · 1 points · Posted at 17:08:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Capitalism is bad for the human nature
EredarLordJaraxxus · 1 points · Posted at 17:09:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Net Neutrality
gbaraldi · 1 points · Posted at 17:09:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Calculus
Panama_Gooding_Jr · 1 points · Posted at 17:09:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Detoxing.... Yeaa....no... Your nasty-ass fruit-vege-shit-fuck juice isnt detoxing your body. You have a liver and kidneys to do that. Though, some of these juices can be good for you in terms of nutrients and such, it does nothing to detox your body.
helladamnleet · 1 points · Posted at 17:10:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's okay to have a difference of opinion.
Iamalwaysfullofshit · 1 points · Posted at 17:10:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How fat loss / muscle gain actually works. Too many people seem to think they understand nutrition when they don't know shit.
xSmokeyMcpotx · 1 points · Posted at 17:10:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You're and your
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:10:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That cable news will rot your brain.
TripleOrgasm · 1 points · Posted at 17:11:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
People aren't jerks, or other people's perspectives I guess.
I used to think people were just jerks. Turns out they have their own lives and have a shit time with things just like me, and assuming they are being jerks is being blind to an entire other life.
And if they are jerks maybe they had a rough childhood, and have unresolved issues. Or maybe I'm reading it wrong, maybe it's a cultural or even age difference.
Generally, I believe people are good people that come across as jerks.
BurnedRope · 1 points · Posted at 17:11:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Freeze peach.
TallThin · 1 points · Posted at 17:11:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Spanish! It is spoken by 10% of the world
word_vomiter · 1 points · Posted at 17:11:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The 1st amendment protects you from the government, not consequences.
jooksingjai77 · 1 points · Posted at 17:12:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The left lane is for passing.
Anastasiagonemadd · 1 points · Posted at 17:12:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Manners
tinrooster · 1 points · Posted at 17:12:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Manners
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:12:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What actually is Donald Trump's hair...
tcpip4lyfe · 1 points · Posted at 17:12:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you maintain a car, it will last a long time. Maintenance isn't just an oil change, it's fixing stuff as it breaks or gets close to breaking.
skee323 · 1 points · Posted at 17:12:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Bitcoin.
toddelini · 1 points · Posted at 17:12:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Anything typically described as "common sense."
lilpimpin · 1 points · Posted at 17:13:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to merge onto a freeway
farhadg2002 · 1 points · Posted at 17:13:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The longer you keep me on the phone, the longer it will take me to complete the task you're asking me to do.
ValkyrieBotanicals · 1 points · Posted at 17:13:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Words.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:13:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Politics
lomography · 1 points · Posted at 17:13:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Close the toilet lid before you flush. There shouldn't be any arguments about leaving the toilet seat up or down.
JebbAnonymous · 1 points · Posted at 17:14:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Americans - Now this is probably not 90% and if I am wrong on this one, and people actually understand it, please correct me.
As a Swede, it always weirded me out how few people actually understand the first amendment to the constitution of the US. Every time someone get fired or called out for saying something stupid/racist, I always see people scream bloody murder about their first amendment rights have been violated, not understanding that it protects you from the government (i.e. they cant tell jail you for saying stupid shit) but that there is no such thing as right to consequence free speech.
And again, this is just the observation I've seen. If I am wrong, and most Americans truly understand this one, please correct me. It just seems to me like one of those fundamental things you should know/understand considering the potential consequences if you dont and run your mouth where you shouldnt.
pbj986 · 1 points · Posted at 17:15:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Nope, you're exactly right. Most people here don't seem to understand it.
civilrobot · 1 points · Posted at 17:14:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Simple principles of economics.
mdplad · 1 points · Posted at 17:14:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The word 'nuclear' isn't synonymous with 'unsafe'.
Couchpotat0 · 1 points · Posted at 17:14:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Quantum physics
bostondong · 1 points · Posted at 17:14:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The zipper merge...
isengardownsyurfaces · 1 points · Posted at 17:14:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That the passing lane is used for passing, and not for parking your ass adjacent to the car in the next lane.
Julian_rc · 1 points · Posted at 17:14:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The seperation of their self and their ego.
So many people are controlled 100% by what others think of them. I see it every day at work and at school/ They get frustrated and angry when things don't go well for their ego, if it has zero effect on their self betterment. I've seen people spiral into destruction because they were too stubborn to admit they were wrong.
SerialSpice · 1 points · Posted at 17:14:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That failing is the path to become a master
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:14:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to operate one's vehicle at a 4 way stop sign.
It's just not that difficult. And there is no need for honking, cursing screaming, or driving into one another.
PisEqualToNP · 1 points · Posted at 17:15:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Income inequality is not the real problem. The real problem would be when the bottom 10% has nothing to lose and ready to go to jail for free food and shelter.
dogzday · 1 points · Posted at 17:15:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Depression.
WomanOfEld · 1 points · Posted at 17:15:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"Natural" does not equal "Organic".
"Natural" means comprised somewhat of ingredients found in nature; "Organic" means something was grown without certain chemical pesticides, hormones, or stabilizers (and generally from a facility that contributes to the general well-being of the planet).
Pinefang · 1 points · Posted at 17:15:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That this country has a history, like it or not. Removing flags, changing names of things and removing statues doesn't take away that history. Better yet why don't they just erect informational signs explaining the fallacies of our past and let it be. The city of Portland, Oregon just changed the name of some schools that had the word Lynch in them, thier reasoning was so that children wouldn't feel oppressed by the word. Oh even though these names had been around for at least 50 years. Oh the poor souls that had to live through the history of those years. Give me a break. Our history isn't going to be changed by hiding it.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:15:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In Ontario, Canada, people can't seem to understand that their G2 drivers license is not plural. "Yeah man I just got my G2's"
Rushsterrr · 1 points · Posted at 17:15:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No, i can not pause my online game
Naphstein · 1 points · Posted at 17:16:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The difference between there, their and they're
Paradigms- · 1 points · Posted at 17:16:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Capitalism. I'm not going to say it's good or bad, but a lot of economic problems that people complain about have very little to do with capitalism, and more to do with government intervention.
Barry--Zuckerkorn · 1 points · Posted at 17:16:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This question is a trap -- because it puts the 'answer-er' in the position of trying to prove how he/she is smarter than the other 90%.
With that being said -- 90% of people get everything wrong according to me.
joeyjojoeshabadoo · 1 points · Posted at 17:16:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Compound interest.
c0mbatm0nk · 1 points · Posted at 17:16:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That the other 20% cannot math.
_Blurryface_21 · 1 points · Posted at 17:16:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In my opinion, your opinion is the reality or truth in your opinion that is for me is just another opinion.
DanialE · 1 points · Posted at 17:16:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Advising people based on hindsight is retarded as fuck and also annoying.
You didnt know what was gonna happen. He didnt know what was gonna happen. Youre no einstein for saying the obvious. You merely saw something while the other person gets to experience that thing first hand. Who do you think has a better idea wtf is going on?
rant mode OFF
bluedot0649 · 1 points · Posted at 17:16:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
General Theory of Relativity, Special Theory of Relativity, dark matter, worm holes, the null hypothesis, each other, the legal system of U.S., the U.S. Constitution, why battleships float, how airplanes fly, the internal combustion engine, why the Greatest Generation went to fight and die for an idea, post traumatic stress disorder, how to raise really smart, healthy, and good children. My God! I could go on like this all day. I think the better question is to find something that 90% of people actually understand. Good luck with that list.
glitterfiend · 1 points · Posted at 17:16:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to merge lanes. JUST ZIPPER IN FOLKS!!!
harburgerz · 1 points · Posted at 17:17:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Me
meltboro · 1 points · Posted at 17:17:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to have a friendly debate
ThePr1meSuspect · 1 points · Posted at 17:17:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That you really don't need to fear the reaper.
Kaspur78 · 1 points · Posted at 17:17:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Taxes.
AgentSkidMarks · 1 points · Posted at 17:17:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
People are entitled to change their opinions. All too often it would seem that we expect politicians and world leaders to be stagnant in their views.
thetoastmonster · 1 points · Posted at 17:17:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Quantum physics.
kombucha711 · 1 points · Posted at 17:17:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Subjective Probability
nddragoon · 1 points · Posted at 17:17:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I use computers, that doesn't mean i'm your IT technician
jmskoda5 · 1 points · Posted at 17:18:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That mental health is important, and could be solved fairly easily if people cared to make some big changes.
Nortiest · 1 points · Posted at 17:18:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You should switch choice in the Monty Hall problem
ilovebeermoney · 1 points · Posted at 17:18:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
illegal immigrants are not the same as legal immigrants.
waiting4singularity · 1 points · Posted at 17:18:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
if you say you have nothing to hide, you dont get the underlying issue of general surveilance.
theWhyvern · 1 points · Posted at 17:18:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Exceptions don't prove rules, people!
"My aunt smoked all her life, and she never got cancer."
Oh, good for her. Now, tell that to my Aunt Claire, who is dying of lung cancer from secondhand smoke right now, jackrabbit.
"Vaccines cause autism. There's this one study!"
One study. By a doctor who had his license pulled by a board of fellow doctors. And Jenny McCarthy. One study. Yet you'll let your kids go to school unvaccinated with contagious diseases easily prevented by vaccines for life that can blind or otherwise maim and kill other kids who can't be vaccinated due to health reason that rely on other kids that can for herd immunity.
The harm of letting your kid go around--who has no capacity to make a vaccination decision for him or herself due to parental control--as a walking bioweapon around other kids should be fuckin' criminal.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:18:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That racism is bad.
theonlyafghan · 1 points · Posted at 17:18:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Politics. Especially now. Everybody knows the characters but no one knows the actual story.
RogerDeanVenture · 1 points · Posted at 17:18:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Insurance. Nobody seems to have a clue how it works.
sizzybizz · 1 points · Posted at 17:18:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The left lane is the PASSING lane (on the highway)
jakeyeatworld19 · 1 points · Posted at 17:18:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Be excellent to each other.
zombiesphere89 · 1 points · Posted at 17:18:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
right-of-way
Microtendo · 1 points · Posted at 17:18:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Zippering when lanes merge
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:18:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Pizzacrusher · 1 points · Posted at 17:38:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
infinite free money, you mean?
prisonpit · 1 points · Posted at 17:19:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The 1st Amendment.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:19:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Universal Basic Income.
KingKillerKvvothe · 1 points · Posted at 17:19:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That Muslim is not a religion. A person who follows the religion of Islam is a Muslim. I have yet to find 1 single person to know this.
Edit: Before anyone jumps down my throat. I am aware that not all Muslims represent Islam.
Nomorelie5 · 1 points · Posted at 17:19:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That just because I am a software support consultant does not mean you are not an idiot. I can troubleshoot software not human stupidity. I understand how the software functions not how your everyday job functions around it.
zimreapers · 1 points · Posted at 17:19:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
TURN ON YOUR FUCKING HEADLIGHTS IN INCLEMENT WEATHER.
Seriously. I just don't understand why this isn't properly enforced by highway patrol.
I used to be a delivery driver and the truck I drove had very bad blind spots. Luckily my dad always told me to look as many times as you want until you feel comfortable before going.
Years ago, one late fall day, around 7am, in MN, the weather was quite gray outside and steadily raining. I am waiting at a red light about to turn right, waiting for the light to turn green (no turn on red sign posted). Light turns green, I look to the left, look to the right, look back to the left, looks real clear so I proceed to take my right turn. Well it wasn't clear. an older gray car that was the same color as the sky, sidewalk and road comes out of nowhere, runs the red light. Luckily I slammed on the brakes and avoided a T-Bone.
Every time I see someone driving in bad weather with no headlights on I wish I could hold up a sign or something that says TURN YOUR FUCKING HEADLIGHTS ON.
A lot of cars have auto headlights but the tail lights don't come on. Brake lights come on when the brake pedal is pressed. TURN THE DAMN LIGHTS ON. The life you save could be mine. or your own...
Conwayyyyy · 1 points · Posted at 17:19:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Everyone is different.
RetPala · 1 points · Posted at 17:19:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just because you have the light doesn't mean you can simply turn and cream some poor bastard going through a signaled crosswalk.
"Says green for me, good luck everybody else"
RedPillNavigator · 1 points · Posted at 17:19:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to drive a stick shift!
DC_Ranger · 1 points · Posted at 17:19:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That you can actually like something, but at the same time have criticisms of it
Majesticeuphoria · 1 points · Posted at 17:19:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Themselves.
s550kody · 1 points · Posted at 17:19:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yielding.
key_smit · 1 points · Posted at 17:19:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Money
ever_sole · 1 points · Posted at 17:19:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That different classes are necessary in a society, they drive others to perform better and will always propel a society forwards. Many like to think that if everything were confiscated from those who worked hard and truly earned what they have, and were distributed amongst the rest of society that all of our problems would be absolved. In a perfect world this might work, however, we do not live in a perfect world. Many would begin to take advantage of this system and society would slowly begin to degrade. Those who once worked hard would realize that their efforts to better their lives is futile and they would become like those to live with an extended palm. A great example of this is the soviet union.
Pizzacrusher · 1 points · Posted at 17:35:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
oh man the reddit socialist gang is about to fill up your inbox, informing you that you clearly don't understand things...
ever_sole · 1 points · Posted at 22:07:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Aw man... Well, I haven't gotten anything yet, I did just join. I would hope that truthfulness doesn't get frowned upon, however, we know how people can be. =/
jamiethekiller · 1 points · Posted at 17:20:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Time has a monetary value attached to it. Expecting people to work for free to little to no money is absurd.
example: Asking your artist pal to draw something up or paint something for you but then not wanting to pay market value
or
estimating a job at work and coming up with a high number and then the bean crunchers saying its to much money and make it lower. just doesn't work like that!
VictoriaBanners · 1 points · Posted at 17:20:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That 90% of common statistics, stated without proper sources, are false. Please don't take them at face value and let them effect your thoughts or actions.
fluffernuttercreeper · 1 points · Posted at 17:23:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
......so should we believe yours?
VictoriaBanners · 1 points · Posted at 17:24:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I was being ironic :)
whorcruz · 1 points · Posted at 17:20:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to properly zipper merge
Mechanical-one · 1 points · Posted at 17:20:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't need to have the words this is an opinion in bright neon lights in my comment for it to be an opinion. Stop being stupid.
spam-master · 1 points · Posted at 17:20:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
JavaScript
dantepicante · 1 points · Posted at 17:20:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That reddit's front page and top comments are 90% astroturfing
heystupidd · 1 points · Posted at 17:20:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The America tax payers have been lied to and cheated out of trillions.
krink0v · 1 points · Posted at 17:20:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How percentages work.
blipsman · 1 points · Posted at 17:21:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Proper use of Me or I. There are times when you use "___ and I" and times when you use "___ and me."
The easiest trick to figure which is correct is to take out the other person from the sentence.
Ganglebot · 1 points · Posted at 17:21:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you are motivated to criticise and yell at someone (IRL or the internet) then they will be equally motivated to criticise and yell at you. In fact, you should expect and accept this.
Knineteen · 1 points · Posted at 17:21:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Companies aren't looking out for the consumer's interests.
<Insert cigarette and asbestos industries here>
DrPila · 1 points · Posted at 17:21:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How traffic actually works
ShockzHybrid · 1 points · Posted at 17:21:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Common sense
duelingteacher · 1 points · Posted at 17:21:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Your beliefs and experiences are not everyone else's beliefs and experiences. Writing off something as nonexistent or inconsequential just because it's never happened to you or doesn't affect you is dangerous and delusional. It's not easy to look at things from other people's point of view, but it's necessary if you want to be a functioning, not shitty member of society.
ReelGeizt · 1 points · Posted at 17:21:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That islam is the biggest threat to western society since the NSDAP
a-r-c · 1 points · Posted at 17:22:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
People treat you the way that you teach them to treat you.
darwin2500 · 1 points · Posted at 17:22:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Different standards of evidence for different situations.
RicoSuave1881 · 1 points · Posted at 17:22:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That literally 90% of Germans were not nazis. At their peak, the nazis only had 10% of the German population in their party. So all these posts about "oh these real Americans killing nazis", most of the time they were just killing or teenage and 20yos that weren't Nazis
aGentlemanballer · 1 points · Posted at 17:22:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The other side of their point of view.
Volntyr · 1 points · Posted at 17:22:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
As this is a current issue at the moment...Freedom of Speech. A LOT of people think that it means that you can say anything you want but the actual definition means free from government censorship. Private companies can pretty much curtail anything they want however.
Randy_Watson · 1 points · Posted at 17:22:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How marginal tax rates work.
1Cornholio5 · 1 points · Posted at 17:22:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
ITT things more than 10% of people understand
Pizzacrusher · 1 points · Posted at 17:33:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
and turn signal nazis
zucchini_asshole · 1 points · Posted at 17:22:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When you tap or click 'send'/'post', it will be on the Internet forever.
Calmecac · 1 points · Posted at 17:22:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
eyeforgotmyusernames · 1 points · Posted at 17:22:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Turn signals...
Redbeard25 · 1 points · Posted at 17:22:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"Fair use" doesn't mean "whatever I want to do with your intellectual property."
Geartone · 1 points · Posted at 17:22:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Accelerating to the same speed as highway traffic when merging.
Merging at the same speed as the other highway traffic will ensure that you don't create a dangerous situation when you merge, with cars coming up too fast from behind.
It's almost weekly that I fear for my life when somebody is driving 50km/h slower than the traffic that I am trying to merge in to.
I hate how people don't seem to understand this concept.
Crowcodile · 1 points · Posted at 17:22:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I am a fucking adult.
thexguv · 1 points · Posted at 17:22:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Esports
Bouncing-Souls · 1 points · Posted at 17:22:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When I say "Leave me alone", I really want them to leave me alone
Ag_in_TX · 1 points · Posted at 17:22:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The blinker is for your own good
BurrStreetX · 1 points · Posted at 17:23:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When you bitch at me and complain that you have to pay the remaining balance on your contract, I cant do anything.
You signed a contract, I tell you there is a 36 month agreement beforehand. If you dont listen, that's not my fault.
skylapotimus · 1 points · Posted at 17:23:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
how to use a turn signal
southern_born · 1 points · Posted at 17:23:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You don't have to vote for the Democrat or Republican.
free_is_free76 · 1 points · Posted at 17:23:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Freedom, Liberty, and Individual Rights
CrispyCritiquer · 1 points · Posted at 17:23:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What the left lane is for... Slow traffic to the right! I'm talking to you UPS driver!
nrylee · 1 points · Posted at 17:23:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That if you think 90% of people don't have some basic understanding of what you are saying, you are either working on something groundbreaking, or you are wrong.
darajemi · 1 points · Posted at 17:24:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The reason "Push" and "Pull" signs are on doors
WhiskeyTangoFiver · 1 points · Posted at 17:24:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
that you (that person) can be wrong and its ok to gather info / learn stuff to know the right from wrong.
TrainingtobeCanadian · 1 points · Posted at 17:24:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If my earphones are in, I don't want to talk
Coraon · 1 points · Posted at 17:25:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That sometimes you shouldn't take the high ground. Sometimes the only way to deal with an asshole is to put them in the ground. You don't do it out of hate or malice, you do it because the person is never going to learn their lesson and they need to be removed from society because society was not built for these people.
carter2ooo · 1 points · Posted at 17:25:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That the Bugatti Veyron isn’t the best car in the world
OminousSC · 1 points · Posted at 17:25:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The turning signal is to indicate 'I am going to turn' not 'I am currently turning'.
CookieCuttingShark · 1 points · Posted at 17:25:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Arrays start at 0
MelonApple2 · 1 points · Posted at 17:26:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How does life works
YourWatchIsBroken · 1 points · Posted at 17:26:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
90% ITT seem to be ignoring the "90%" part of the question.
Edit: About 90% of the people turn every thread into another "what bothers you" thread.
KickAClay · 1 points · Posted at 17:26:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to zipper merge!!! Don't take up 2 lanes of traffic, you can get fined for doing so. I'm not wrong for using the lane till the end. I bet you don't take up two lines at the grocery store.
stick_figure420 · 1 points · Posted at 17:26:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Merging onto a freeway....
KingofNorthKorea · 1 points · Posted at 17:26:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Girls.
czr79 · 1 points · Posted at 17:26:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's ok to have different beliefs.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:27:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You can hold opposing views on a topic, but still be in support of said topic.
Left or right, Ctrl left Alt right - you won't settle your differences unless you talk to one another.
NeonDisease · 1 points · Posted at 17:28:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That you can't safely merge into 65 MPH+ traffic if you're driving 25 MPH up the onramp.
zaqwert6 · 1 points · Posted at 17:28:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The little lever on the left side of a steering wheel.
drketchup · 1 points · Posted at 17:28:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The first amendment, tax brackets/rates, weight loss.
SoundsLikeTreble · 1 points · Posted at 17:28:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Being objective
Doc_Payne · 1 points · Posted at 17:28:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Stop signs. Every time I go out driving, I almost get into an accident because someone is doing a rolling stop and they're completely ignoring the rules of the road.
Yes you could make it an argument that maybe it's me. However, I'm aware that at a 4-way stop you and other drivers are supposed to take turns. Who ever gets there first (completely stopping) is supposed to leave the intersection first and so on. But no one does this and it's infuriating!
Zj14 · 1 points · Posted at 17:28:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Fuckin drive-thrus. Order at the box, get your food at the window. Don't be that cunt
TheRealJoelsky · 1 points · Posted at 17:29:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Compound Interest
dimer0 · 1 points · Posted at 17:29:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The appropriate use of a semicolon.
Gooberzoid · 1 points · Posted at 17:29:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The main reason stupid shit keeps circulating around social media (Kardashians, etc.) is because people keep talking about it.
Bad attention is still attention. Just stop it!
Ereen78 · 2 points · Posted at 17:31:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Same boat, but slightly different, but people can "vote" with money. If you find a store/cd/website offensive, stop shopping there (hello Walmart complainers). It seems like everyone wants legislation for everything
Gooberzoid · 1 points · Posted at 17:36:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Right?! I mean, evidence is shown in pretty much every "Millenials are killing X industry" article lol
Eli_Siav_Knox · 1 points · Posted at 17:29:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That uncertainty exists( I'd put this 98% of people).That life is complex, messy and hard to predict. There is no conspiracy against you. There is no behind the scenes control.There are no movers and shakers. Everyone's more or less clueless as to what the fuck they're doing.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:29:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That it costs nothing be a decent human being.
Punk45Fuck · 1 points · Posted at 17:29:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Freedom of speech is not freedom to behave like an asshole without consequences.
Koobles · 1 points · Posted at 17:29:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That you shouldn't talk on your cellphone when you're checking out at the register
DaedricRuinsJanitor · 1 points · Posted at 17:29:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
99% of parents dont understand that online games cant be paused
Mode1961 · 1 points · Posted at 17:30:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That women don't make 77% of what men make "FOR THE SAME JOB".
Revaldh · 1 points · Posted at 17:30:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Modern Monetary Theory
guyadriano · 1 points · Posted at 17:30:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"That $40 off a second purchase promo means 40% off as well as magically combining other promos/discounts to them." - the associate
Rollawayyourpebbles · 1 points · Posted at 17:30:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The left lane is a passing lane. NOT a sit and cruise lane
Drfilthymcnasty · 1 points · Posted at 17:30:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There is a passing lane on any road with more than one lane traveling in the same direction. Stay the fuck out of it unless you are quickly passing someone.
RickCinnamonRoll · 1 points · Posted at 17:30:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Taxes.
ImmodestPolitician · 1 points · Posted at 17:30:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Free Markets don't automatically create utopias
wolferd15 · 1 points · Posted at 17:30:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The left lane is for passing!
cap826 · 1 points · Posted at 17:30:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Nutrition
The10thAmendment · 1 points · Posted at 17:30:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The harmful effects of pornography.
http://fightthenewdrug.org/get-the-facts/
NickFortuna · 1 points · Posted at 17:30:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not strawmanning is really really difficult.
Examples we get of straw mans in school seem dead obvious. But people's true opinions, feelings, and motivations in the real world are incredibly difficult to represent fairly.
THUNDERCATS_13 · 1 points · Posted at 17:30:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That they're fucking stupid.
TheLonelyScientist · 1 points · Posted at 17:30:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Public policy doesn't move slowly because it's inefficient; it moves slowly because it's thorough.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:30:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Hospitals can be a lot of trial and error. There's no magic cure, and there's no magic diagnosis machine.
7thgradet3acher · 1 points · Posted at 17:30:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Free speech as a concept exists beyond the first amendment.
juicy-pears · 1 points · Posted at 17:30:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Bitcoin/Cryptocurrency mining. How can leaving your computer on solving equations make money?
I know I took this title a bit literally but I mean I know a lot of people (including myself) that don't understand this
Quinn-Carbon · 1 points · Posted at 17:30:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Preparing my breakfast and lunch for the next day
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:30:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The constitutional rights are for everyone and not just the people you would invite into your home.
Apparently it's okay to act like a Nazi if the person in question is a neo nazi, judging by the front page over the last few days.
LoneWolf-_- · 1 points · Posted at 17:30:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sarcasm
booleanerror · 1 points · Posted at 17:31:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Nuance.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:31:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not to walk behind your fucking car when your driving out of a parking space.
not-just-yeti · 1 points · Posted at 17:31:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The value of money isn't linear: 2x as much money doesn't make life 2x easier.
[E.g. if you win $1million in the lottery, and somebody offers you double-or-nothing, it'd be stupid to take that offer. Half the time you get nothing, and half the time you also-get-enough-money-to-retire-immediately.]
This is why taxes are graduated, and it's why a flat-tax, while seeming to be "perfectly fair", is actually very unfair: if you make only $15k/yr, ten percent tax is huge, but if you make $150k/yr, ten percent is hardly noticeable to your standard of living.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:31:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That smoking kills!
R_Lupin · 1 points · Posted at 17:31:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How fucking stupid they are
Horricule · 1 points · Posted at 17:31:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The mere concept of subjectivity.
Blackd1amond13 · 1 points · Posted at 17:31:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Common sense
249ba36000029bbe9749 · 1 points · Posted at 17:31:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Relative proportion, like how much 90% actually is.
Lironi · 1 points · Posted at 17:31:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Excel
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:31:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The 11th dimension.
Patches67 · 1 points · Posted at 17:31:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Statistics and how they can easily be misrepresented to push any agenda or message.
IndoorCatSyndrome · 1 points · Posted at 17:31:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How i could just kill a man.
FreakingScary · 1 points · Posted at 17:31:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Your/You're.
Basically, you have to be a redditor to understand. It's rocket science.
Bearsandgravy · 1 points · Posted at 17:32:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Goddamn insurance. I work on the auto and property side and the amount of people that have no fucking clue how it works is so incredibly high.
kraftykid1204 · 1 points · Posted at 17:32:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Me.
aprilbalaga · 1 points · Posted at 17:32:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Difference between your and you're
FiscalClifBar · 1 points · Posted at 17:32:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How SuperPACs work.
pokiman_lover · 1 points · Posted at 17:32:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Insults don't make your arguments more valid.
omyn · 1 points · Posted at 17:32:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Standing away from the baggage claim lets everyone see the incoming luggage better, gives space to those collecting theirs and gives everyone more space to stand around in.
You won't get it any faster by standing next to the carousel.
Mackertosh17 · 1 points · Posted at 17:32:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How Rotten Tomatoes works.
FuckDaQueenSloot · 1 points · Posted at 17:32:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The white line at intersections? That's where you stop. Not after it. Not in the middle of the intersection. You stop at the line. It's become a hobby of mine to snapchat people when they stop after the line and I now regularly get snaps from people around the country of people doing it. It's a little thing I guess, but it drives me nuts because I'll watch people just leisurely slow down and come to a stop in the intersection which has fucked with traffic on numerous occasions.
DEEPTHINKER79 · 1 points · Posted at 17:32:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
50% of the human population are of below average intelligence.
joshtravelstheworld · 1 points · Posted at 17:32:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Turn signals
Maleoppressor · 1 points · Posted at 17:32:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That I'm not locked in here with them.
darksoulsnstuff · 1 points · Posted at 17:33:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just because you don't like something doesn't make it bad... others can still like that thing and that's ok.
bcbrawn · 1 points · Posted at 17:33:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you have a 5L bucket, and a 3L bucket, how do you measure precisely 4L of water using only those two buckets? (You have an unlimited amount of water available.)
nycc93 · 1 points · Posted at 17:33:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That they are not the only ones who exist.
nycc93 · 1 points · Posted at 17:33:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Personal space.
StamatopoulosMichael · 1 points · Posted at 17:33:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Statistics
UglyMuffins · 1 points · Posted at 17:33:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That reddit is an echo chamber and just cause your comment has thousands of upvotes doesn't mean it's right or wrong.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:33:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What an yield sign means
ohshitineedmusic · 1 points · Posted at 17:33:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That progress takes time
nycc93 · 1 points · Posted at 17:33:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That you need to be very considerate towards other when living in close quarters.
SillyGooseSack · 1 points · Posted at 17:33:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The left lane is the fast lane
panickyyy · 1 points · Posted at 17:33:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It takes time and love to help someone with depression. Not just compliments.
Horricule · 1 points · Posted at 17:33:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The fact that weight and fat aren't the end all be all of a healthy or even attractive body.
orlib123 · 1 points · Posted at 17:33:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Apparently how an eclipse works. I work at a library and we have people pouring in to get eclipse glasses (that NASA sent us) because they think they will be blinded by just being out doing normal things. People are asking if it is safe to drive in them. NO NO NO. They are basically black out glasses. You can't see anything through them unless you are looking right at the sun. And yeah, you could get hurt looking at the eclipse, but you manage to avoid looking at the sun every other day, so this shouldn't be such a huge problem.
nikolai_stocks · 1 points · Posted at 17:33:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
the speed of light has nothing to do with light
Marleycatold · 1 points · Posted at 18:22:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Please elaborate...
nikolai_stocks · 1 points · Posted at 19:20:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
this video does it better than i can in english
https://youtu.be/msVuCEs8Ydo
iampc93 · 1 points · Posted at 17:33:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Return policies
stratozyck · 1 points · Posted at 17:34:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Economics: trade is good and there is no such thing as a trade deficit (current account + capital account = 0 always, we report the current account to get people riled up)
Most people can see why its beneficial to get your gas from a gas station down the street but not see how it is beneficial to get gas from overseas. National boundaries tends to muddy people's logic.
Ampl1c1ty · 1 points · Posted at 17:34:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Driving...
Source: am on road on way to work
SnakeTheJake97 · 1 points · Posted at 17:34:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The server brings the order to the cooks, after that the server bring you the food that you ordered. How your food is cooked isn't usually the fault of the server.
liam12345677 · 1 points · Posted at 17:34:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That the US has FIFTY states. At least in the UK everyone seems to think there's '52' because 'the flag has 50 stars representing the 50 mainland states and they left out alaska and hawaii'. And I guess in the US, some people think similarly because they say Puerto Rico and other territories count as 'states' when they don't.
lickthecowhappy · 1 points · Posted at 17:34:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Statistics
clarkbmw · 1 points · Posted at 17:34:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Probabilities and statistics
elzeardbouffier · 1 points · Posted at 17:34:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I would say logic, but that number is closer to 99.9%.
jimmyfortune10 · 1 points · Posted at 17:34:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That a cop takes a 911 call for a speeding vehicle seriously.
Some_Weeaboo · 1 points · Posted at 17:34:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to use a computer.
LAND0KARDASHIAN · 1 points · Posted at 17:34:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In America: Roundabouts.
8luze · 1 points · Posted at 17:34:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
dogger
FriscoBay · 1 points · Posted at 17:34:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That we basically know nothing, while everyone has an opinion on everything. Sure people can get to a certain point of knowledge in a certain field. But to think that the average person can really grasp for instance the complexity of politics is nonsense to me.
Horricule · 1 points · Posted at 17:34:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That Jojo is the only good anime because I'm always right
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:34:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That when you do something for that benefits everyone, it benefits you as well. Single-payer health care, affordable birth control, having the minimum wage locked at whatever the living wage is for where the individual lives (kind of like how your income tax is based on where you live, not where you work), and other such things. But no, "we shouldn't pay for that".
The same idiots rip on Sweden for high tax rates. Say you have a baby on the way. The minimum wage in the US is $7.25, the cost of living is around $20 ($15 if you want to live paycheck to paycheck in a middle-of-nowhere rural area with no growth potential) if you're living alone. At 15% tax, minimum wage leaves you with $1009. Since you will likely not have insurance or have shit insurance, you'll be paying a good chunk out of pocket. Enough so that you will be living paycheck to paycheck for a while. Up that to $20 at a 55% tax rate with a first-world healthcare system like Sweden's? Take home $1440 after taxes and pay the hospital NOTHING because giving birth is free thanks to those taxes.
pouch28 · 1 points · Posted at 17:34:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Who you are in a relationship w drastically (over time) influences your health, wellness and financials.
pinksphynx · 1 points · Posted at 17:34:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
proper use of the apostrophe
Jclaforce · 1 points · Posted at 17:34:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to drive
heedrix · 1 points · Posted at 17:34:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The official rules of any given sport.
JAndiz · 1 points · Posted at 17:34:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Bitcoin.
JAndiz · 1 points · Posted at 17:37:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Also, money. Fitting, as 90% of people have little of it as well!
mccoyster · 1 points · Posted at 17:35:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Percentages.
TitaniumDragon · 1 points · Posted at 17:35:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Statistics, ironically.
BarvoDelancy · 1 points · Posted at 17:35:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Cultural appropriation.
It is not any kind of cultural sharing in any context whatsoever. I mean, American culture is aggressively exported around the planet all the time. It's meant to be shared. We share culture all the time. It's (usually) a good thing.
The idea is that a dominant culture takes ideas from another culture, gets them wrong, and then asserts them back to the point it changes or destroys the original.
And more importantly - the people who practice that culture are mad about it. If nobody is mad, there's no problem. Cultural appropriation is a concept to describe a problem that already exists, not a problem someone made up looking for something to get mad about.
Rosilius · 1 points · Posted at 17:35:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That "Yes I am colorblind." Doesn't mean I want to hear "What color is this?" 50 times.
thefeline · 1 points · Posted at 17:35:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
4-way intersections.
fredy31 · 1 points · Posted at 17:35:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The payload is how you win the game. GET ON THAT MOTHERFUCKING PAYLOAD.
roonling · 1 points · Posted at 17:35:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Maths.
PoopyMcpants · 1 points · Posted at 17:35:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to use apostrophes.
WeLikeSporkSporks · 1 points · Posted at 17:35:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Signal lights.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:36:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The left lane is for accelerating up to the speed limit to pass cars going below the speed limit.
ctyhuntr · 1 points · Posted at 17:36:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The US Constitution is not the Bill of Rights and the importance of States vs Fed.
ooooldmaaaanriverrrr · 1 points · Posted at 17:36:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just because someone is smiling doesn't mean they are happy or okay.
me3260 · 1 points · Posted at 17:36:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Do not understand how retail business works. I read an article the other day about JC Penney posting declining sales.
Every moron in the comments section said something along the lines of: "They need to lower their price!"
People do not realize that there are expenses associated with doing business and everything cannot be sold at cost.
The cost of a product does not have a whole bunch to do with the price of a product.
Working in retail it is amazing how many people have no concept of how retail actually works.
jsbrando · 1 points · Posted at 17:36:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How NFL overtime rules work these days since they seem to change it every year.
Oh, further along the lines of NFL - what constitutes a legal catch by a player.
deutschdachs · 2 points · Posted at 17:45:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
For anything to be a legal catch now you pretty much have to lay down in bounds with the ball lifted above your head for no shorter than 2 minutes
inkyblinkypinkysue · 1 points · Posted at 17:36:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Traffic circles. Honestly, it's not hard people - if you are in the circle you have the right of way and if you are not in the circle you have to yield.
Erotic_FriendFiction · 1 points · Posted at 17:36:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Their car blinkers.
hujijiwatchi · 1 points · Posted at 17:36:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The other 10%
Njodr · 1 points · Posted at 17:36:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Quantum Physics
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:36:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That changing your mind every few minutes doesn't mean your bi-polar
TheKokomo · 1 points · Posted at 17:36:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The value of money and time
Astralogist · 1 points · Posted at 17:37:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Pretending to know what you're talking about is only going to make you look like an idiot. If you don't know something, ask questions instead of lying and trying to act like you have any idea about the subject. Own up to not knowing something so that you can learn something from the experience. I guess what it really boils down to is don't lie to save face, ever, because it's only going to put off the inevitable until later.
inhalingsounds · 1 points · Posted at 17:37:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Particularly relevant during spring and summer: thinking that going to the gym is going to make you thin (girls) or the second coming of Arnold (boys).
Your diet makes your body, the gym only polishes the rough edges.
Jarvisthejellyfish · 1 points · Posted at 17:38:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Hurting those who have hurt you only results in a cycle of pain.
jloome · 1 points · Posted at 17:38:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Cognitive dissonance occurs in far sleighter, less obvious degrees than people realize, and most people make decisions based not on their opinion, but their opinion filtered first through an autonomic and subconscious sense of security.
If it triggers any level of dissonance, they will usually oppose the new idea before they've even critically considered it.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:38:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
DDOS protection.
Domhnal · 1 points · Posted at 17:38:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The difference between racism, cultural appropriation, and celebrating diversity.
mil10puln · 1 points · Posted at 17:38:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Personal Finance
Whathityou · 1 points · Posted at 17:38:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Basic computer software fixes. New operating systems are great but they go out of their way to hide whats going on under the hood. I run into so many people who have no idea/will to even attempt simple fixes to their issue. In the long term its probably harmful.
Kinda like owning a car but being unable to change the oil, batteries or tires in a pinch.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:38:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Any group or ideology that asserts a nonviolent stance can be easily overcome by any group or ideology that allows the use of force
STEMologist · 1 points · Posted at 17:39:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sheaf cohomology.
Chilkoot · 1 points · Posted at 17:39:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Relativity - even special relativity. It's super cool and worth wrapping your head around it even from a layman's standpoint. You don't need to get super math-y to start to intuitively get it.
Arh920 · 1 points · Posted at 17:39:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You have to train your mind just like you train your body. Mental strength is not something people work on as much as they should.
jammaslide · 1 points · Posted at 17:39:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Thermodynamics
shamy52 · 1 points · Posted at 17:39:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to manage their money. It's criminal that financial literally isn't taught in every US high school.
MMAchica · 1 points · Posted at 17:39:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Fox News made so much money as a PR firm publishing partisan infotainment that pretty much every other major news outlet was basically forced to follow the same model.
DarkCitical · 1 points · Posted at 17:39:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No I am not in a mood, angry, upset, sad, etc.. I just came to the kitchen to make a sandwich. Why is that so hard understand?
Bookablebard · 1 points · Posted at 17:39:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Math, more specifically probabilities. That's why lottery and casinos exist!
BloodyWanka · 1 points · Posted at 17:39:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Turn signals are for indicating a turn before you initiate it.
thepoisonman · 1 points · Posted at 17:39:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
RNG
HikariYumemi · 1 points · Posted at 17:39:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That if I'm not talking it's because I have nothing to say, nothing more.
FloppY_ · 1 points · Posted at 17:39:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No [serious] tag and the post "How I could just kill a man!" is nowhere in sight. Reddit, I am disappointed.
PatriotSpade · 1 points · Posted at 17:39:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Search engines. The internet is your intellectual oyster. Ignorance is no longer a valid excuse.
redblazingdragon · 1 points · Posted at 17:40:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That free trade isn't fair trade, it's just that - free. Populist politicians like Bernie Sanders and President Trump have railed against the TPP, NAFTA and other free trade agreements. However, what they fail to realize is that those agreements are the basis of sound trade policy. Free trade is foundational to peaceful relationships between nations; it acts as a stopgap toward unnecessary conflict. Innovation and economic growth occur at the global level, which in turn increases prosperity for those living in desolate poverty in developing countries. Alongside robust labor and environmental protections, the global exploitation of workers is far reduced; but "fair trade" (protectionism) directly impedes and/or prohibits economic growth, consumer protection and strong alliances between countries.
DonOfspades · 1 points · Posted at 17:40:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Chemistry
danimal7310 · 1 points · Posted at 17:40:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Finances
RockyBoy24 · 1 points · Posted at 17:40:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What causes traffic and how you can prevent it
jmadpp · 1 points · Posted at 17:40:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Which way to stand on an escalator. Some people want to walk up the stairs lazy fucks :]
Eziekel13 · 1 points · Posted at 17:40:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
correlation vs causation
http://study.com/academy/lesson/correlation-vs-causation-differences-lesson-quiz.html
laflamablanca81 · 1 points · Posted at 17:40:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In Los Angeles people don't understand basic driving laws
Snowbound35 · 1 points · Posted at 17:40:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Basic math
Clienterror · 1 points · Posted at 17:40:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Using the left lane to pass on US interstates.
gmasterson · 1 points · Posted at 17:40:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Beautiful, great functioning and good sales lead websites don't just "get built."
It's an incredibly tedious and high time investment process.
Crasino_Hunk · 1 points · Posted at 17:40:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
We are all driving on the roads TOGETHER. This applies to the people who don't feel obligated to check to see if they're holding up traffic by going 5 under in the left lane as well as the hot shots who feel compelled to weave in and out of traffic without any caution.
supersillybuffalo · 1 points · Posted at 17:40:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to use their signal light.
spaghettistrands · 1 points · Posted at 17:41:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That the Red Sox are better than the Yankees.
BitcoinMadeMeDoIt · 1 points · Posted at 17:41:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Bitcoin
duckkiller28 · 1 points · Posted at 17:41:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you raise the minimum wage all it does is cause inflation so that you get paid more but the cost of living and the price of goods goes up also so you dont really get paid more
NehpetsDoom · 1 points · Posted at 17:41:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Driving on the freeway
Tnacboy19 · 1 points · Posted at 17:41:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Gender = Male and Female...Nothing else
CoffeeAndKarma · 1 points · Posted at 17:41:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Emotions aren't bad, but they should be kept in check in certain scenarios, like the law. And that oftentimes, being close to an emotional situation makes your opinion less relevant, not more. Because you're too close to think rationally about it.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:41:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Statistics.
AmericanPixel · 1 points · Posted at 17:41:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When an emergency vehicle is in view, do not just come to a halt in your lane. If you can, pull to the right shoulder (USA).
Pizzacrusher · 1 points · Posted at 17:41:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
anything that requires more than 1 week of focus and effort to understand.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:41:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That even if you don't agree in politics, that doesn't mean the other person is an idiot or ignorant. Chances are you both have some overlap of opinions but because only the issues with most friction get brought up, you don't notice.
olmikeyy · 1 points · Posted at 17:41:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Driving with less than a few feet between yourself and the car you are following will get you to your destination a grand total of zero seconds faster. Calm the fuck down.
boldrthereal · 1 points · Posted at 17:42:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Driving laws are very important.
slacknerd · 1 points · Posted at 17:42:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Probability and statistics
RazrSquall · 1 points · Posted at 17:42:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How banking works.....
neish · 1 points · Posted at 17:42:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Correlation does not necessarily mean causation.
I have a well meaning coworker who always wants to discuss interesting articles she has read. I have tried to explain that although they may show a correlation, you still need to be critical of what the actual study is saying. This is further muddied by some journalists who are shit at reporting on scientific studies and they just push a headline because it piques reader's interest.
Thiickshake · 1 points · Posted at 17:42:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Cows don't just produce milk, they require a calf so are im a perpetual state or motherhood to produce the milk you love so much.
DWIGHT01 · 1 points · Posted at 17:42:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How tax is calculated
PostNuclearTaco · 1 points · Posted at 17:42:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Computers and basic security. Even the most tech savvy people in my office are grossly incompetent in this regard. We really, really need to start teaching children more than just basic computer operation and start teaching them simple steps to avoid viruses and troubleshoot basic issues.
I don't run anti-virus on my home computer, pirate all the time, and have been virus free over 10 years. It's not hard if you take simple steps to avoid risky behavior.
Oldtimebandit · 1 points · Posted at 17:42:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Mandarin (give or take 4%)
sonrad10 · 1 points · Posted at 17:42:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I have a computer science degree. That does es not mean I can fix every problem on every computer system that has ever or will ever be invented
jloome · 1 points · Posted at 17:42:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
People who seem very intelligent are often just experts in one area.
Even people with poor critical thinking skills can develop good memory storage, particularly in one field. That's why you have guys like Dr. Ben Carson, who is a leading neurosurgeon but also a idiot.
Unless critical thinking skills are developed by the time people are in the earliest stages of rational thought (around age seven) it becomes exponentially more difficult to teach them to see past the biases that make them feel secure.
jimmyd1911 · 1 points · Posted at 18:10:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm sorry, but you're wrong. A person's ability to 'critically think' is ever changing by their very observation and understanding of experiences they've witnessed. Your own bias towards Dr. Carson is a perfect example; young Mr. Carson wasn't aware of the existence let alone the significance of a CSF halo around a blood drop on gauze - but Dr. Carson learned that through classroom and clinical education.
Young Mr. Carson's experiences living in poverty in public housing undoubtedly gives him critical thinking skills that you perhaps haven't had, or have bias' against.
jloome · 1 points · Posted at 19:01:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I didn't say people can't learn to critically think past childhood. I said it's harder. In some cases, much harder.
It's also anchored by comparison and contrast. Your ability to do that, in turn, is affected by existing biases that are often ingrained during the "magical thinking" stage of biological development, while neurological pathways are developing. This process continues well into our twenties, but the bulk of development is between ages seven and eleven for most people; the further we go past that stage without learning to critically challenge magical, pre-rational assumptions, the harder it becomes to do it later.
That's why people can see the absurdity of other people believing in things absent evidence, but not their own. After a certain point, it is essential to their sense of security. In Carson's case, he allows religion to trump critical thinking on a regular basis.
This doesn't devalue what he DOES know, of course, but that's the point: we're about as smart as our biases allow, because they prevent us from accepting fact over belief.
jimmyd1911 · 1 points · Posted at 19:28:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Please give an example of Dr. Carson choosing religion over critical thinking.
jloome · 1 points · Posted at 19:35:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Here's an entire article in the New Yorker:
http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/ben-carsons-scientific-ignorance
By the way, that took nine seconds on google. If you were thinking critically, you might have assumed you yourself were wrong, and looked it up.
Edit: Hmmm, let's see what else is on the first page of that search.
http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/ben-carson-argued-evolution-was-encouraged-satan
jimmyd1911 · 1 points · Posted at 19:45:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Critical thinking is the opposite of assumption. I did a google search on his religious beliefs and didn't see any mention of science vs theology other than skills being learned, but wisdom coming from his God. Having not found any evidence of his choosing faith over fact, I did the logical and asked the person who made the statement to give an example. It is obvious that you yourself allowed your previous experiences to bias your opinion of our interaction. What were you doing from age 7 to 11? I'll read your references and be back...
jloome · 1 points · Posted at 19:57:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Everyone suffers bias, even the most critical of thinkers, and particularly when irritated. It was rude of me to suggest you hadn't tried to look it up. I apologize.
jimmyd1911 · 1 points · Posted at 21:33:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's all good. I appreciate the apology.
My anecdotal experience of being around Doc's all of my career is that physics and microbio were the two most hated/disliked courses. So in-depth discussions regarding subjects such as thermodynamics or macro-evolution aren't even possible, let alone a voluntary choice. When I add in that 51% of the US populace doesn't believe in the big bang theory (not the tv show), or 66% don't believe in the evolutionary theory. It seems even more understandable. People, even MD's, don't understand all the science or either theory (how could they) and so it makes the entirety of the theory itself questionable to them. Then when the personal 'comfort' of using spiritual/religious teachings to lessen perceived stresses is added to the equation it all becomes a muddled mess.
Does Dr. Carson's faith lessen his intelligence? Would it hamper his ability to act as a public servant at the federal level? Evidence in our history would suggest not - no US President claimed to be an atheist - only three President's listed no denomination affiliation - but those three stated they were men of faith. Has America's strong christian development been a hindrance, or an asset? Will America's abandonment of it's christian ties be a positive or negative?
I seriously questioned if critical thinking could be taught in a classroom setting, observed several different schools classes and objectives, spoke to the teachers and the administrators; no one had come to any one conclusion. In the years since I've revisited the idea several times, usually when I'm irritated by a casual contacts apparent lack of critical thinking skills, and I still wonder if it can be taught, and I hope it can be learned by all.
airbreather02 · 1 points · Posted at 17:42:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Tabs are better than spaces.
Blackwiz109 · 1 points · Posted at 17:42:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to drive
dipshit82 · 1 points · Posted at 17:42:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Merging.
CygnusSong · 1 points · Posted at 17:42:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Whataboutism is a logical fallacy
ZenBacle · 1 points · Posted at 17:42:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Confirmation bias drives most of your decision making. Even when you understand what it is.
kd262 · 1 points · Posted at 17:42:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That I have to push the credit card button on the register before they can swipe.
Killago · 1 points · Posted at 17:43:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Most people don't seem to understand how internet speed works. Eg: the difference between 2g, 3g, 4g, 4g LTE. Let alone speed for home internet.
ScaryHobo · 1 points · Posted at 17:43:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Don't be mean. We don't have to be mean.
JPoP21074 · 1 points · Posted at 17:43:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The left lane is a passing lane. If you have no one driving in front of you and vehicles behind you, you're the problem.
8979323 · 1 points · Posted at 17:43:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Basic statistics. A lot of statistics you read are either poorly reported, or deliberately misleading, but many people (95% +/- 5%) fail to understand this.
haveacigar4200 · 1 points · Posted at 17:43:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Civics.
literalloser · 1 points · Posted at 17:43:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Respect. For themselves, for others, for literally anything..
Duckbilling · 1 points · Posted at 17:43:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That it isn't proper English to begin statements with that
elaerna · 1 points · Posted at 17:43:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That antibiotics don't work on viruses. That you have to finish the entire prescription of antibiotics even if you start feeling better. That if you have a giant laceration you can't wait until the next day to get stitches put in because there will be too great a risk of infection by that time and the doctor won't do it. That vaccinations don't cause autism and even if they did you should get them anyway because autism is better than death and spreading potential death to everyone you come in contact with. The public is wildly uneducated on the dos and don'ts of medicine - how do we fix this.
jimmyd1911 · 1 points · Posted at 17:54:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Mandatory health & safety course objectives for high school.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:43:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I CANT SAVE IN THE MIDDLE OF A FUCKING BATTLE
USA455 · 1 points · Posted at 17:43:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If everyone is super then no one is.
Clipse83 · 1 points · Posted at 17:43:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Chess
tstorm004 · 1 points · Posted at 17:43:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to make real Buffalo Chicken Wings. http://s3.amazonaws.com/bncore/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/duffs.jpg
C0RKIT · 1 points · Posted at 17:43:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You don't EVER talk about fight club... It's the first rule for a reason!
jimmyd1911 · 1 points · Posted at 17:52:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Aren't you breaking the first rule?
captainjoo · 1 points · Posted at 17:43:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Computers only do what you tell them to do
getmesombranow · 1 points · Posted at 17:44:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Focus the darn mercy
PurpleMonkeyElephant · 1 points · Posted at 17:44:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How and what Freedom Of Speech is..
Muzea · 1 points · Posted at 17:44:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
We all die, no matter what we do in life, we all die. The most important thing in the world should be empathy, not that paper, not the sale at nordstrom, not the newest iphone. Empathy. Being able to understand how another person feels and then acting appropriately. Everyone's got one life and some people are dealt shittier cards than you. Treat them the way you'd want to be treated.
jelly_blood · 1 points · Posted at 17:44:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
politics
theUSpopulation · 1 points · Posted at 17:44:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Every group of people have their crazies. If you don't realize that the groups you belong to do as well, then maybe you are one of those crazies.
XANphoenix · 1 points · Posted at 17:44:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That if EVERYONE went out and got a college degree, it wouldn't make us all start making more money. And that there are jobs that society legitimately needs to have done, or simply just demands anyway, that will have to be worked by people who need to support themselves, that have no need for a college degree.
SuddenlyBoris · 1 points · Posted at 17:44:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The difference between profit and revenue.
Nearly every single time I've seen someone attempt to quote profit they have incorrectly quoted revenue. The media confuses the two so frequently that I now just assume they do it deliberately to skew the story in a particular direction.
excitebyke · 1 points · Posted at 17:45:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Self-checkout is not for assholes with a full cart and cell phone in one hand
jkiley · 1 points · Posted at 17:45:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Compound interest.
8DDD · 1 points · Posted at 17:45:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That you don't need to have an opinion about everything.
Hazzman · 1 points · Posted at 17:45:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You can't just punch someone for saying something you don't like.
NESysAdmin · 1 points · Posted at 17:45:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That 83% of all statistics are made up on the spot, including this one.
ELDubCan · 1 points · Posted at 17:45:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you're in the fast lane, and there's someone behind you, but no one in front of you, move over.
The-Coopsta · 1 points · Posted at 17:45:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sometimes I have Xbox Live friends I forgot about. Doesn't mean I want to reunite with you all of a sudden. And if I'm not accepting invites, it means you should stop.
ANewMachine615 · 1 points · Posted at 17:45:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Marginal taxation.
ligga4nife · 1 points · Posted at 17:45:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
everything
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:45:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
fish can't live in bowls, even that little betta fish in the plastic cup at petsmart
SportsNeglect · 1 points · Posted at 17:45:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Calling them Nazis only pushes them further right /s
zbbrox · 1 points · Posted at 17:45:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Marginal tax rates. People seem to have a hard time understanding that when you "move up a tax bracket" only the additional money is taxed at the higher rate. You're never going to make less money because you're in a higher bracket.
gimp150 · 1 points · Posted at 17:45:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Humility.
slipperylips · 1 points · Posted at 17:45:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That paying for a college education is a bad investment today. Yes, there are zero poor medical doctors, and people in other licensed professions like nurses and pharmacists might do well, but nearly everyone else will be paying student loans into their late 40's with mediocre to poor career prospects.. It is much smarter to get a skilled trade or open a small business.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:45:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That there is an extreme complexity to social, political, and economic issues. It seems like people nowadays have picked a side and are unwilling to understand the other sides. It's ridiculous because nothing is black and white. Discussion has been replaced with protesting and violence.
ErythorbicAcid · 1 points · Posted at 17:45:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That 90% of people DO understand. They just don't necessarily agree or care about whatever it is.
martyelm · 1 points · Posted at 17:45:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Positive reinforcement.
It means that the behavior is more likely to occur in the future because you added a preferred stimuli.
For example, a child does chores and gets a cookie. Positive reinforcement only occurs IF the child does the chores the next time. If the child hates cookies, you may have just used positive punishment inadvertently.
Another example of positive reinforcement could be reprimanding a child for talking in class and sending him to the back of the class where a friend of that child sits. The boy then talks more in class so he can get sent to the back and be given access to that seat near his friend.
badly_designed_door · 1 points · Posted at 17:46:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's pronounced ass-fault not ash-fault. It's spelled like asphalt.
Feedthemcake · 1 points · Posted at 17:46:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You don't talk about or explain a meme you saw on the internet IRL.
Stupid_question_bot · 1 points · Posted at 17:46:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
you catch more flies with honey.
seriously: if you disagree with someone, telling them they are wrong is NEVER going to work.
Help them to examine their beliefs and to see that they are illogical.. if someone comes to that realization on their own, without being told the answer, it might actually help to change their minds.
NL_MGX · 1 points · Posted at 17:46:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That the only price for your freedom is that you should grant others theirs. Your beliefs do not grant you the right to infringe them onto others.
Swagguschrist · 1 points · Posted at 17:46:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
the hatred of hatred is in fact hatred
knpstrr · 1 points · Posted at 17:49:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
that's deep
Atiopos · 1 points · Posted at 17:46:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just because you"re right,or at least you're sure you are, doesnt mean you can be rude about it.
LittleSqueesh · 1 points · Posted at 17:46:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How evolution works. I live in Lynchburg, VA, home of Liberty University.
Charlie_Faplin_ · 1 points · Posted at 17:46:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
For America, the first amendment only protects you from the government.
skinip · 1 points · Posted at 17:46:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Generalizing percentages
WheelChair_Jimmy1 · 1 points · Posted at 17:46:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Turn signals.
Wiser87 · 1 points · Posted at 17:46:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Assuming you are right is nowhere near as valuable as knowing you are wrong.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:46:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Maybe not 90%, but smoking is still misunderstood. An incredible amount of people think that smoking is a bad habit, a guilty pleasure, an acquired taste, something that goes well with alcohol and coffee, something that relieves stress, helps concentration, etc.
All of these things are untrue. It's nicotine addiction, plain and simple. People smoke because nicotine is a highly addictive substance. If there weren't any nicotine in tobacco, no one would smoke.
Let_It_Steep · 1 points · Posted at 17:46:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Bitcoin
proudlyhumble · 1 points · Posted at 17:46:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Compound interest and the time-value of money
PtolemyShadow · 1 points · Posted at 17:46:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Turn signals.
FortunateInsanity · 1 points · Posted at 17:46:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Apparently what the hell the other 10% is talking about.
KenderKinn · 1 points · Posted at 17:47:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Near sighted vs far sighted. I talk with people who have glasses or contacts all of the time about it and they can never understand which is which.
Pix3lPwnage · 1 points · Posted at 17:47:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Don't point something out about someone, that can't be fixed within 5 minutes.
donnamei · 1 points · Posted at 17:47:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A turn signal is to show people where you're turning on the road... USE IT
Skipster777 · 1 points · Posted at 17:47:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That the sun revolves around the earth
SpankMeDaddy22 · 1 points · Posted at 17:47:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to drive in the right fucking lane!
Jl4233 · 1 points · Posted at 17:47:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
4 way stops... Roundabouts... Really anything having to do with driving. People are not very smart.
Anonymousness115 · 1 points · Posted at 17:47:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That people have different opinions.
ricoza · 1 points · Posted at 17:47:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Risk reward. That's why most people can't start their own business.
Snugglepuff1 · 1 points · Posted at 17:47:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to use "a part" and "apart"
I've been seeing too many educated adults make cheesy posts that go something along the lines of "I'm so thankful to be apart of this wedding/family/whatever"
Mikraykray · 1 points · Posted at 17:47:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Only how to fuCKING PARK CONSIDERATELY!!!!!
And how to parallel park. Come on team, just think of where your wheels are in relation to the kerb and the parked cars, and its an easy job in 2 steps
cheezandchalk · 1 points · Posted at 17:47:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That men are from Mars, women are from Venus.
bluedot0649 · 1 points · Posted at 17:47:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
As I read this amazing list of things 90% of people don't understand I am struck with this thought; we, that is all of us, understand very little about very little. We are given a set of assumptions to live by through contact with 'significant others': parents, teachers, clergy, friends, bosses, idiots, the charismatic, the loudest talking, etc. We take these teachings, eventually, as self evident. When another person has a contrary view, it is easy, if not a duty, to dismiss them. In short, humans understand almost nothing. We are "Idiot Wind" (Dylan) and it is a wonder we still know how to breath. Thank god for the very few brilliant and inspired people among us who somehow keep us moving in a forward direction.
_teleno · 1 points · Posted at 17:47:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Crypto, the diferences between the platforms (bitcoin, ethereum, NEO, eth), and what they could actually do in some years
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:47:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Left lane is for passing. Not for going slower than the right lane and getting pissed at people who are getting pissed that you're in the wrong lane.
simple1689 · 1 points · Posted at 17:47:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Computers.
AtlasCuckd · 1 points · Posted at 17:48:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Budgeting
Driamer · 1 points · Posted at 17:48:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Reality is what you focus on. What you focus on is a choice.
HighlanderLass · 1 points · Posted at 17:48:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That signs are meant to be read.
Jinner · 1 points · Posted at 17:48:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Bitcoin
KingKang8 · 1 points · Posted at 17:48:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Silence. When you film movies and have live audio, there is always someone like tapping their foot.
Disciplined_20-04-15 · 1 points · Posted at 17:48:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
that tax is in brackets and its always better to earn more money
ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
jaypat32 · 1 points · Posted at 17:49:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The difference between than and then, loose and lose, there and their and they're, you're and your, accept and except, and others.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 17:52:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Affect and effect.
chopperdaveuhoh · 1 points · Posted at 17:49:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Divide and conquer
Beatmewithamallet1 · 1 points · Posted at 17:49:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Money and central banking
PM_ME_GLUTE_SPREAD · 1 points · Posted at 17:49:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How tax brackets work.
They are quite complicated but, the general concept behind them is pretty simple. Yet, you still get people who believe that if they work more, they will make less because it'll put them in a higher tax bracket.
braxfitz · 1 points · Posted at 17:49:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Russia is not our enemy
Shelbae_xoxo · 1 points · Posted at 17:49:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That you are not your brain. Having a mental illness cannot be healed with just positive thought.
CamisadoApollo7 · 1 points · Posted at 17:49:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
LPT: Your time is never really free, whether charging for a service or even helping someone pro bono.
joahfx · 1 points · Posted at 17:49:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That we're all in this life together and we all share this Earth.
Phspeckert · 1 points · Posted at 17:49:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That you cant just drink a powder or swallow a pill to loose the excess fat you have
Stinkfoot69 · 1 points · Posted at 17:49:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
statistics
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:49:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That a dog collar is not a belt..
mrjoe1 · 1 points · Posted at 17:50:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I believe the right answer is.. probability
TouchingWood · 1 points · Posted at 17:50:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The reason websites use pop ups is because they work.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:50:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The high beam is used to alert the drivers in front of us. Using it as your permanent light is not ethical. It blinds the people that are driving towards you and can lead to accidents if the timing is very unfortunate (eg if you get blinded when there are potholes in front of you)
Horricule · 1 points · Posted at 17:50:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Unless you're looking to charm superficial assholes that aren't worth your time, the right personality and word use will get your much further in dating then just plain being hot because nearly everybody has accepted that most people don't look like a perfect movie star, so instead they look for a certain personality. And as cliche as it sounds, yes a confident personality is the most sought after one but certain people crave shy and less confident ones. My point is: be yourself and yes you will find someone, there is no big secret or perfect look.
nobodywon · 1 points · Posted at 17:50:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to pre pay for gas at a store that doesn't make you prepay. If you push the pay inside button, I'm going to turn the pump on, you will have already started pumping and that person you sent in to prepay your gas is left standing there feeling like an idiot and hoping you realize you need to turn the pump off yourself because I had no idea you expected it to be preset.
normalsapien · 1 points · Posted at 17:50:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Percentages
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:50:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That North Korea's threats are meaningless rhetoric to keep the current elite in power and you dumb asses play into his hand every time.
ibrahim2k01 · 1 points · Posted at 17:51:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Samsung is the best. Apple is lame.
Jirom830 · 1 points · Posted at 17:51:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Being a patriot.
Pirate_of_Dark_Water · 1 points · Posted at 17:51:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You can't use a coupon on/with that.
baileasb · 1 points · Posted at 17:51:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Evolution/natural selection.
Blarfk · 1 points · Posted at 17:51:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What legally constitutes entrapment. This comes up on reddit a fair bit, and there are always a ton of people who try to explain it but give completely incorrect information.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:51:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Body fat is not the only contributing factor in determining body weight.
goofygoobr · 1 points · Posted at 17:51:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
getting rid of family services will NOT decrease teen pregnancy.
animallover2472004 · 1 points · Posted at 17:51:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Commenting on a news article on social media is not going to do anything other than show your peers you're an idiot.
PhDOH · 1 points · Posted at 17:51:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The word decimate.
KronicDeath · 1 points · Posted at 17:51:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Flare
MetaLF0rce · 1 points · Posted at 17:51:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Target the healer first.
GotoSiliconHell · 1 points · Posted at 17:51:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Finance
Essindeess · 1 points · Posted at 17:51:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You can't pause an online game...MOM!
chadywacker · 1 points · Posted at 17:51:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Percentiles...
thelandofdreams · 1 points · Posted at 17:51:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The difference between equality of opportunity and equality of outcome
StarmanX22 · 1 points · Posted at 17:52:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Keep right, except to pass.
Flufflecorns · 1 points · Posted at 17:52:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Other people.
jeffsterlive · 1 points · Posted at 17:52:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to vote.
Themaskedshep · 1 points · Posted at 17:52:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Bitcoins
TheRedgrinGrumbholdt · 1 points · Posted at 17:52:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That they're not as good a driver as they think they are. If you don't use your turn signals, or drink and drive, or text and drive, or tailgate, for long enough, you will get people killed.
PulpiestFictionist · 1 points · Posted at 17:52:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That excel can be used to feed into powerpoint.
cubs_070816 · 1 points · Posted at 17:52:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
proper following distance between 2 cars.
jesus christ get off my ass, people!
gagsdelhi19 · 1 points · Posted at 17:52:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That the second person is not a fool!
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:52:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Matrix multiplication.
WavesOfEchoes · 1 points · Posted at 17:52:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Healthcare costs. People pay drastically different amounts for the same care. They understandably use anecdotal stories that assume everyone pays the same and hospitals are swimming in money. But healthcare costs/income need to be viewed in aggregate. More than half of patients insurance pay below the cost of providing the service. You don't hear those anecdotal stories because the cost was low for them. The hospital isn't getting $10 for a Tylenol from everyone, they are getting a wide range of payments that average cost plus small profit. Some people pay too much and some people don't pay at all.
beete17 · 1 points · Posted at 17:52:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to use, commas
TheSmashPosterGuy · 1 points · Posted at 17:52:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How much of a circle jerk reddit is
FullTimeWorkIsCancer · 1 points · Posted at 17:52:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Compassion.
vizzini3 · 1 points · Posted at 17:52:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Time Zones
leathertank · 1 points · Posted at 17:52:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Using indicators while driving.
drunky_crowette · 1 points · Posted at 17:53:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Complaining to a lower level employee will not fix a problem out of their control.
Not everyone is special or above average.
You don't deserve jack shit just because you exist aside from the bare basics of survival and safety. You earn love, respect, etc. And those things can be taken away at any time.
The customer is not always right.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:53:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Responding to hate with hate isn't going to solve anything. It just makes problems worse.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:53:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Adverse Possession.
Everyone has apparently heard of it. But they also seem to think it is a really easy thing to do. It's not. Prevailing on an adverse possession claim is incredibly rare and difficult.
Kraz_I · 1 points · Posted at 17:53:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Derivatives.
monsieurintrovert · 1 points · Posted at 17:53:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How Natural Selection works, and more broadly, how evolution works.
As an evolutionary biologist I likely have a highly skewed opinion on this, but it's deplorable to me how many people reject the theory of evolution not because they don't believe it, but because they don't understand it.
Whether or not this is because they were never taught correctly or because of personal (religious) ideals is another matter, but in my experience I have very rarely had a conversation with someone (outside of my field of study), regardless of their beliefs, that truly understands what the theory of evolution is saying.
The most common corrections?
(1) No, humans did not "come from apes".
(2) No, Evolution says nothing about how life originated. It is about how life proliferates and changes over time. Evolution is not an origin story, and I believe if Darwin had fully grasped how much grief using origin in On the Origin of Species has caused (insofar as people take his presumably intentional ribbing of creationist ideas as a tenets of the idea itself), he would have chosen a different word.
(3) No, evolution does not always mean Natural Selection. It's kind of like the "all squares are rectangles but not all rectangles are squares" thing. Natural selection is always evolution, but not the other way around.
The list could go on and on, and maybe it will one day. But for now, this rant is good enough for me. At least for this comment.
EDIT: words
noreally811 · 1 points · Posted at 17:53:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Calling someone a racist does not win the argument.
Andrew_Squared · 1 points · Posted at 17:53:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Statistics.
roborabbit_mama · 1 points · Posted at 17:53:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Do not touch. It seems like a simple command but man, everyone thinks they are the special and try to touch valuable or endangered shit.
king_krimson · 1 points · Posted at 17:53:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The down vote button is not for when you disagree, it's for when something isn't contributing the conversation.
Fedora200 · 1 points · Posted at 17:53:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That you shouldn't upvote questions from a few days ago.
pantheman75 · 1 points · Posted at 17:54:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you're being passed on the right you're doing it wrong.
shikuto · 1 points · Posted at 17:54:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The importance in the distinctions among recording engineers, mixing engineers, mastering engineers, and producers. One person can do all of those jobs, but likely not on one album. They all share the skill set of critical listening, but take somewhat drastically different applications of it.
puggatron · 1 points · Posted at 17:54:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That in America you can't actually go into a store and walk out with a gun as easy as buying a candy bar. There is background checks and registration.
GreaseDog11 · 1 points · Posted at 17:54:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
broken window fallacy
Sweet-Lady-H · 1 points · Posted at 17:54:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The Monty Hall problem AKA accounting for Variable Change
supergregx2 · 1 points · Posted at 17:54:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Racism
wammy-bammy · 1 points · Posted at 17:54:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just because you were hurt does not give you the right to hurt others, even those who hurt you.
The world doesn't owe you one damn thing.
vtjingo81 · 1 points · Posted at 17:54:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Validation on social media is not more important than real life
Just-Plain-Dan · 1 points · Posted at 17:54:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Bulbasaur is the best starter in Kanto.
Taoist_Master · 1 points · Posted at 17:54:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Health insurance
Mtnn · 1 points · Posted at 17:54:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Based on a lot of these replies... the tax code.
Khanati03 · 1 points · Posted at 17:54:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No matter how well you do your job people will still not take you seriously until you age.
gpouliot · 1 points · Posted at 17:54:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Getting angry at a situation and then unleashing your anger upon the person who made you angry almost never helps the situation.
Dryyyyy · 1 points · Posted at 17:54:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That the bar closes at 2 and I'm not selling anymore alcohol
ikerus0 · 1 points · Posted at 17:54:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There are other people around you. You aren the only one in the store. Be courteous and logical, if you are looking for something, reading the back of a box, chit chatting with your stupid neighbor "oh my god we know each other and we BOTH shop at the same store that is closest to our houses, no way!! How are you!?", just do all of these things NOT in the center of the isle with your carts blocking the sides that your fat bodies aren't taking up. It's really simple, don't be oblivious. Realize that others are also shopping and need to get by. (Even worse, don't have a conversation with someone in or within 5 feet of a door. Chances are you blocking it and making people squeeze past. It's a door way, go have your conversation somewhere else, like outside on the free way).
DJjustmike · 1 points · Posted at 17:55:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That guns don't make that cocking sound every time you move them like in the movies.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:55:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Debt isn't inherently a bad thing. It's a tool that can be used to both one's benefit or detriment.
are2deetwo · 1 points · Posted at 17:55:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Statistics.
MrSirloinSteak · 1 points · Posted at 17:55:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How internet reception works
mub · 1 points · Posted at 17:55:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It seems like most people don't understand technology (aka Computers).
Socially_Minded · 1 points · Posted at 17:55:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Almost anything about the United Nations is either misunderstood, or spun for domestic political gains, so that no clear understanding is had by anybody other than the diplomats themselves and the academics who study them. Which is pretty funny when you consider how many people go on about grand conspiracies one moment to criticising systemic ineptness the next.
LawrenceGg · 1 points · Posted at 17:55:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Schrodinger's Cat is not about magical cats or the mystery of the unknown, its about how strange quantum mechanics is and how this strangeness has ramifications on our scale.
bmb445 · 1 points · Posted at 17:55:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
apparently, random sayings. People often seem to interpret them literally and that's never how it works.
skunkwrxs · 1 points · Posted at 17:55:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That the most important skill that determines whether or not you'll be financially successful isn't what you invest in or what life insurance policy you buy, it's being able to manage your money on a day to day basis. That's the hardest part, after you generate next cash flow every month it's just figuring out what to do with it.
BaggySpandex · 1 points · Posted at 17:55:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Turn signal BEFORE brake pedal.
Teej0403 · 1 points · Posted at 17:55:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That complaining about Trump in Reddit doesn't really mean a thing
DgaggingTilSchweiger · 1 points · Posted at 17:56:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
that a pro white riot is merely a lash back at decades of media shaming and teasing and lying in these crazy Orwellian times and it doesn't mean = skinheads
Fb62 · 1 points · Posted at 17:56:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That ads on things like computers and phones are almost never placed by the people advertising something, but are put in by the developers of the website/app you are using, and most likely formed by a company that had nothing to do with the ad itself(google admob). I learned quite a bit by making a small phone game that I would have never cared to think about before.
Also by "formed" I mean the way the ad is shaped and put in, like videos or banner ads. They make whats on the ad obviously, like the picture on the banner or what the actual video is.
An example is the post that said they will never buy something if they click on an ad that they didn't want to click on but the ad popped up where they were going to click. The developers most likely did that on purpose, and probably make over 10x the profit from that ad than they usually would have because you clicked on it and left. Granted I feel the same way, it's not the advertisers fault.
Northsidebill1 · 1 points · Posted at 17:56:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Hatred is hatred. Just because you aim it at someone or something that is generally disagreed with, you arent any better than anyone else who hates.
petitsfilous · 1 points · Posted at 17:56:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
People who are on benefits/live in social housing/are homeless are not scoungers. They're just not as fortunate as us, and we should do everything we can towards creating equality.
jamestporter · 1 points · Posted at 17:56:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
headphones means I do not want to talk to you. at all. find someone who's job is to listen.
Mr-Saxy · 1 points · Posted at 17:56:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to use a cars turn signal
KallistiTMP · 1 points · Posted at 17:56:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Non-violent protest doesn't mean waving signs and hoping someone listens. It means shutting down highways and organizing worker strikes and inflicting damage to institutions of power in non-violent ways until they have no choice but to concede.
sacknsave · 1 points · Posted at 17:56:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The salad at Olive Garden is not free.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:56:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That most people's political/religious beliefs are a product of the environment they grew up in and are surrounded by, and when your family all seem to think similar things, it's hard to develope your own independent opinions once your grown up when it comes to throne specific subjects. By default, I've become very conservative because my mom and grandma are and they raised me. My best friend on the other hand isn't religious or political at all, and I've never heard a word about it when going over to his house growing up. Always confused me when our opinions differed of stuff that I thought was simple, clear and obvious when I grew up with it and he didn't. Took me a long time to figure that out and not inadvertantly push my beliefs on him and other friends, when we all grew up around different opinions. Even now, with millions of different options out there to do my own research and look away from my family for answers to politics and faith, I lean a little closer to my families upbringing than starting on neutral ground to form my own. It isn't nearly as bad as it used to be, but took me years to understand that you can't just change your mind on something's when it's all you've ever known.
kill-nine · 1 points · Posted at 17:57:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Electricity
ViveMind · 1 points · Posted at 17:57:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
ITT: Things 90% of people definitely understand.
DarkLazer215 · 1 points · Posted at 17:57:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Walking is like driving. Stay on the right side of the sidewalk (left for Europe)
DJjustmike · 1 points · Posted at 17:57:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When to use the word "literally"
Mr_TreeBeard · 1 points · Posted at 17:57:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Stay in your lane.
Orphins · 1 points · Posted at 17:57:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I could care less
tres_chill · 1 points · Posted at 17:57:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What we do in IT all day
oldguy_on_the_wire · 1 points · Posted at 17:57:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
TANSTAAFL
There
Ain't
No
Such
Thing
As
A
Free
Lunch
If your favorite bar provides "free" noshes they are going to be salty nuts and meats and cheeses and heavy breads. All designed to get you to buy more liquor. If your furniture salesperson offers "free" delivery then you can rest assured that cost is buried within the price. If your social media site is "free" to use then you can bet there are permissions for them to reuse anything you post without cost and for profit.
The cost may not be easily visible, but it is always there.
The-White-Dot · 1 points · Posted at 17:57:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Astro physics
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:57:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That lack of spacial awareness is the cause for a lot of frustration between people interacting in public and on roads. If you're lost in your own little world then you create problems for others no matter how inconsequential you think your actions are.
KimmieA138 · 1 points · Posted at 17:57:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The people in their life aren't there to jump at their beck and call
mca5087 · 1 points · Posted at 17:57:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Turn signals
kill-nine · 1 points · Posted at 17:57:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In general I think people suck at spacial awareness. See any footpath or hallway ever
GrndMastaCracka · 1 points · Posted at 17:58:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to properly drive around a roundabout.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:58:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Batman V Superman!
(I kid)
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:58:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If I flicker my high beams when we are both stopped at an intersection, I am telling you to go first.
BigHomie50 · 1 points · Posted at 17:58:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The use of turning signals while driving actually help other people around you.
Virez · 1 points · Posted at 17:58:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You can't win a game of 3 card monte
_aguro_ · 1 points · Posted at 17:58:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
sex vs gender
Lemmiwinks418 · 1 points · Posted at 17:58:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Cow milk isn't meant for people. It's meant for cows.
More like 97-98%
Alexhite · 1 points · Posted at 17:58:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That healthy food is all subjective to your personal diet. Sugar is phenomenally healthy for people lacking in body fat and calorie consumption, vegetables and fruit are bad for you if you've already consumed an excess of calories that day, everything with advertised protein and extra protein literally doesn't have any physical effect (besides being used for more energy) on the majority of people as most westerners already consume more than enough protein, this is true for every single micro nutrient and so on and so on.
slapspatula · 1 points · Posted at 17:58:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You don't have to like it
DanielFrigginJackson · 1 points · Posted at 17:58:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Weight=/=Health
MessyMessenger · 1 points · Posted at 17:58:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Depression.
league359 · 1 points · Posted at 17:59:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Orbital mechanics. No, a rocket doesn't automatically start orbiting the earth after you send it straight up into space!
HUMANPHILOSOPHER · 1 points · Posted at 17:59:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Happiness isn't achieved by comparison to others or by receiving the approval of others. Rather, it's through self exploration and supporting others you admire. We can't do anything alone, but we can through knowing and living ourselves and using that to guide our decision making.
Hotterman · 1 points · Posted at 17:59:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How Rotten Tomatoes works.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:59:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My accent.
Laughing_with_myself · 1 points · Posted at 17:59:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Getting something from customer service doesn't require you to get loud.
adidas-uchiha · 1 points · Posted at 17:59:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That there are some things disabled people can't do. Able bodied and neurotypical people love to say that "you can do anything an able bodied person can do!" but that's simply not true.
merten5 · 1 points · Posted at 17:59:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That most things in life are a scale.
ROIs.
Simple statistics.
Logic.
the_great_meow_meow · 1 points · Posted at 17:59:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to merge!!
Tranki88 · 1 points · Posted at 17:59:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That there is DNA in most of the food.
rumple_skillskin · 1 points · Posted at 17:59:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The two party system of american politics.
wycbias1 · 1 points · Posted at 18:00:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That people are different and that doesn't mean they are better/worse.
Lannex24 · 1 points · Posted at 18:00:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Mass cannot move faster than light. It just can't. Took me awhile to wrap my head around it.
mrbskywalker · 1 points · Posted at 18:00:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Depression and anxiety doesn't just go away
thylacine00 · 1 points · Posted at 18:00:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That most things aren't personal
sohvan · 1 points · Posted at 18:00:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
90% odds still fail 10% of the time.
iSuper56 · 1 points · Posted at 18:00:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Common sense
Flabby-Nonsense · 1 points · Posted at 18:00:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Facts do not hold within them some kind of personality or ideology. A fact is neither conservative nor liberal, tolerant or prejudiced, black or white. A fact is separate from humanity's view of it, it is how a fact is interpreted that gives it any notion of bias.
Hathorym · 1 points · Posted at 18:00:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Statistics
Redditdamnearkilldit · 1 points · Posted at 18:00:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Don't believe everything you read.
and
Research before you repost to remain reputable.
HawkGrrrl · 1 points · Posted at 18:00:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The US healthcare system. I have a degree in health care informatics, have worked in the industry for years, and I still feel like I'm faking my way through every day.
roux93 · 1 points · Posted at 18:00:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What it takes to be in the top 10%.
kevingharvey · 1 points · Posted at 18:00:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That maybe 90 percent of people don't understand a particular thing because that thing isn't something most people give a fuck about so why should they be expected to understand it?
Carini209 · 1 points · Posted at 18:00:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The left lane is for passing
Belluani · 1 points · Posted at 18:00:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If your driving in the left lane on the highway, and people have to go around you to pass you, MOVE THE FUCK OVER.
Pico_De_MANDINGO · 1 points · Posted at 18:01:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Why can't we love a complete stranger like they were family?
tripce · 1 points · Posted at 18:01:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That wifi is NOT the internet.
beepborpimajorp · 1 points · Posted at 18:01:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There's no reason for so many people to have to work in office. Almost every job that doesn't involve physical interaction with something can be done via telecommuting. And there's no reason to require people to come in for face to face meetings, either.
All it does is waste people's time and money with commutes. If every company could shave 1-3 commute hours per day off their employee's 'work day', they'd probably have much happier employees.
Also it would start forcing cable companies to be more accountable with the services they provide. Right now they only guarantee your service if you have a business connection. If more people started telecommuting and saying "that's pretty fuckin' dumb" then their feet would be held to the fire more.
DozerMendozer · 1 points · Posted at 18:01:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The difference between definitely & defiantly.
cudavlied · 1 points · Posted at 19:12:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Seeing 'defiantly' instead of 'definitely' is probably caused by autocorrect. Should still be proofread, though.
JustTrustMeOnThis · 1 points · Posted at 18:01:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Responding to hatred with more hatred only causes an infinite loop that makes the world worse for everyone.
Datspliff1126 · 1 points · Posted at 18:01:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
THE LEFT LANE IS FOR PASSING ONLY
MReprogle · 1 points · Posted at 18:01:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Punctuation. Many times, it's either too many commas or none at all.
thomas6785 · 1 points · Posted at 18:01:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Bitcoin - and they pretend that they do.
JoelKeys · 1 points · Posted at 18:01:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That just because a scientist believes in something, doesn't make it scientifically proven.
EarthsFinePrint · 1 points · Posted at 18:01:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Turn signals.
PotatoBlight · 1 points · Posted at 18:01:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The world isn't black and white. It's very complex
StringSurfer1 · 1 points · Posted at 18:01:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Common sense because we have nothing in common.
roweira · 1 points · Posted at 18:01:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The emergency room is for emergencies.
morgythemole · 1 points · Posted at 18:02:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Data is plural
dbreggs22 · 1 points · Posted at 18:02:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
THe forex market. Literally. 9/10 people lose money trading forex exchange currencies.
milkandbutta · 1 points · Posted at 18:02:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Feelings. And how they aren't facts.
beardead · 1 points · Posted at 18:02:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That IT'S NOT A PHASE, MOM!
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:02:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When your boss or employer or client or friend asks you a question (anyone you like or wish to keep around) - the first words out of your mouth should directly answer that question. THEN EXPLAIN if needed.
When you explain first but aren't clearly answering it's a) annoying b) unprofessional and c) obviously selfish.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:02:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A need for privacy
AustinCultured · 1 points · Posted at 18:02:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How beer is made. To take it further - any fermented anything.
woolshark · 1 points · Posted at 18:02:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Bitcoin
dertidferris · 1 points · Posted at 18:02:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Cryptocurrencies
brufleth · 1 points · Posted at 18:03:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Progressive tax rates.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:03:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The very basics of orbital mechanics. This is apparently a complete mystery to anyone who isn't either a NASA mission planner or an avid KSP player.
ArthursPoodle · 1 points · Posted at 18:03:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
General relativity
Brobeans_ · 1 points · Posted at 18:03:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
By talking more and more about these Nazi rallies you are giving them more of a base. Instead of organizing "counter protests" you could ignore them. There's a reason we never heard of these people on the news the last 40 years, and there's a reason why we are now. You are giving them attention.
ImPoopnRightNow · 1 points · Posted at 18:03:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Life?
tatersaladpie · 1 points · Posted at 18:03:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Bitcoin
Peabush · 1 points · Posted at 18:03:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
God is not real. And that huffing and puffing in the security line at the airport will not make it go any faster.
aHugeGapingAsshole · 1 points · Posted at 18:04:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Stop popping the popcorn before it starts pausing between pops. A few extra pieces is not worth burning them. And if you like burnt popcorn jump off a bridge your ancestry should have never survived the savannah.
GeileOlle · 1 points · Posted at 18:04:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
E=mc2
X0AN · 1 points · Posted at 18:04:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes I'm Spanish, no I don't support either Barcelona or Madrid football teams.
But you must have a preference? No I do not as I'm not for either areas.
But if you had to pick? Why are people soo obsessed with me having to side with one :S
rabeeto · 1 points · Posted at 18:04:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
who respect themselves.
Naln1 · 1 points · Posted at 18:04:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That they can't comprehend what vocabulary is being released by my mouth.
Elo_Solo · 1 points · Posted at 18:04:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That if you're rude on the road, like, trying to get over without using a turn signal, then Imma be rude right the hell back. I'm a very good driver to where I can pin you against traffic and not let go.
martinezrjp · 1 points · Posted at 18:04:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Bitcoin
THELEGENDOFRAA · 1 points · Posted at 18:04:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That God is imaginary?
bytie1 · 1 points · Posted at 18:04:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How much force a moving car (average weight 2 tons) creates at any speed.
neonmarkov · 1 points · Posted at 18:04:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
>sorts by controversial
shreyanshd · 1 points · Posted at 18:05:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That no one really gives a fuck about you, except your mom and dad.
beermoneymike · 1 points · Posted at 18:05:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Percentages
SilverWolf01 · 1 points · Posted at 18:05:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Genetically engineered foods.
IdiotAnthomaniac · 1 points · Posted at 18:06:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Women.
Chupachabra · 1 points · Posted at 18:06:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Election
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:06:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
the reddit voting system does make the point of this post moot. Sort by controversial
Chavezjc · 1 points · Posted at 18:07:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This this world is a capitalist country that still suppresses its people keeping them updated on the next Kardashian baby, rather than fix the flint crisis. Where we have money to build all these beautiful buildings and no money at all given to the poor. Glad to be born in the USA /s
aliensporebomb · 1 points · Posted at 18:07:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
My answer? TCP/IP.
Rushofthewildwind · 1 points · Posted at 18:07:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That your life experiences can be different from someone else's. You would think that we would all know this but no, not really
arios91 · 1 points · Posted at 18:07:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Left lane is for passing!
lol_camis · 1 points · Posted at 18:07:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to make a goddamn sandwich. I don't understand what the confusion is. The pieces of bread you use are flat. Therefore, you should lay the ingredients out flat and evenly. A big mound of shit in the middle and nothing but bread on the outsides does not make a good sandwich.
DrongoTheShitGibbon · 1 points · Posted at 18:07:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The cause of headaches. I have a headache.
ParkRanjah · 1 points · Posted at 18:07:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Rules of the road..right of way at stop signs, left lane for passing, etc
RealGurd · 1 points · Posted at 18:07:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That there are indicators in a car that let people know, when and where you're turning.
JennyJeffs · 1 points · Posted at 18:07:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How do navigate a four-way stop...
carbonblob · 1 points · Posted at 18:07:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That if you don't have a plan for your life, someone else does.
Poutine_Estit · 1 points · Posted at 18:08:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I literally just stepped in from driving, I'm gonna go with roundabouts (Canada)
GuardOfInsanity · 1 points · Posted at 18:08:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Where the money comes from, how and why.
infinitezero8 · 1 points · Posted at 18:08:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Everything seems to be about How you feel now. What ever happened to No Pain, No Gain?
throwitupwatchitfall · 1 points · Posted at 18:08:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Morality applied to government.
throwitupwatchitfall · 1 points · Posted at 18:08:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Morality applied to government.
The_Axem_Ranger · 1 points · Posted at 18:08:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Telling me what I want to hear doesn't make me trust/believe you. It just makes me more cautious of what I tell you in future engagements.
ikilledtupac · 1 points · Posted at 18:08:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
how i could just kill a man
Qubeye · 1 points · Posted at 18:08:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That switching lanes repeatedly will not get you to your destination any faster, no matter how aggressive you drive.
Sonozar · 1 points · Posted at 18:08:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That people won't realize it's their fault even though it is.
EXAMPLE: I nearly got hit by a truck while crossing the road. My brother and I had agreed to go down, to a better intersection, but without telling me crossed there, and expected me to see and hear him and follow. So when he got there told me to come, when I was about halfway to that other intersection, and we needed to stick together (I'm not an adult yet) so I ran across. And boom, nearly got hit. And then he has the audacity to say, "But you didn't get hit." To this day he thinks that it's my fault, and he also said that he doesn't care about that situation, and even if I did get hit he wouldn't care and blame it on me.
Gotta love your brother, right? ❤️
EDIT: Reading this now it seems more like a rant then answering the question, so sorry about that fellow redditors. Anywhere I could post the story in better detail?
Brokenstar12 · 1 points · Posted at 18:08:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you make a wrong and someone calls you out on it, calling them out on their past wrongs does not take away from the fact that you are wrong now. This is called a tu quoque fallacy
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:08:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just because you are upset doesn't mean you're right
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:08:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"Black Lives Matter" does not mean that POC are trying to say that their lives are more important. The best analogy I've seen is "Save the Rainforests" does not mean "fuck all other rainforests" it's just trying to draw attention to a group of people that have been treated poorly by police/govt/law etc.
WeAreAllDyingSlowly · 1 points · Posted at 18:08:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just because I have actual feelings that aren't happiness doesn't mean I am an edge-lord. I'm sorry that some people aren't mindless smiling robots.
realizm360 · 1 points · Posted at 18:08:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The left lane is for passing
xProhan · 1 points · Posted at 18:08:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Finances.
brooklynbotz · 1 points · Posted at 18:08:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The meaning of irony
Pharmacololgy · 1 points · Posted at 18:08:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Using Google, Wikipedia, etc to "research" doesn't qualify you to give medical or psychological advice.
And on a related note, neither does citing PubMed articles for which you briefly skimmed the abstracts.
yyzable · 1 points · Posted at 18:08:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How I could just kill a man.
Taj2000 · 1 points · Posted at 18:10:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Cyprus Hill?
leeshya · 1 points · Posted at 18:08:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Zipper merge.
MantoineBZH · 1 points · Posted at 18:09:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Correlation does NOT imply causation!
Melisa-H-Walton · 1 points · Posted at 18:09:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Why would anyone in my generation (I'm 19) start smoking? At least in the UK it's no longer seen as cool. I know that giving up is hard, but why would you start, knowing that it will increase the chance of you dying and cost you a literal fortune?
jacobmcjacobson · 1 points · Posted at 18:09:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Reddit.
atomosk · 1 points · Posted at 18:09:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If a road exits to both sides there is no fast lane. Highway logic does not apply to all roads.
billyuno · 1 points · Posted at 18:09:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How science works.
ihaveadogname · 1 points · Posted at 18:09:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Democracy only operates well when there is a consensus.
kitsonian · 1 points · Posted at 18:09:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Empathy.
MachiavelliP · 1 points · Posted at 18:09:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That I don't give a fuck what your gender is.
DishinDimes · 1 points · Posted at 18:09:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Affect vs. Effect
Spanky2k · 1 points · Posted at 18:09:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There are two sides to every story and your point of view may not actually be the better one.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:09:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That Markup is not the same as Margin.
Chuckdeez59 · 1 points · Posted at 18:09:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Trump
kryptoniankoffee · 1 points · Posted at 18:09:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The differences between hyphens, en dashes, and em dashes.
FEEEEED-MEEEEEE · 1 points · Posted at 18:09:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What "money" is and how it works.
greenking2000 · 1 points · Posted at 18:10:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sorts by controversial
Quesamo · 1 points · Posted at 18:10:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That u mom gay 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Markiv19 · 1 points · Posted at 18:10:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Tipping. I live in Vancouver BC, and my SO is a waitress in a high end restaurant.
If she doesn't get a certain % tip from the customer. She actually loses money cause she has to pay out a % to the rest of the staff.
Servers get payed below minimum wage here to compensate for the tips they earn. But the complaint is for "rounding up" tippers or to those who think it's all just bonus money for the server.
Just because your bill is $105 and you have a 5 dollar bill that rounds up the total to a nice number, don't do that unless you actually can't afford otherwise. 15% is standard unless your service is actually bad.
It's your money and your right to choose how to spend it so it's worth noting, this is more of a complaint towards the service industry for fucking over my s/o.
But it's shitty cause the non tippers are usually foreign people and then servers aren't happy to serve them from the start. Educate your families if you/them didn't know this!
RobotSlaps · 1 points · Posted at 18:10:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Buying five lottery tickets does not appreciably increase your chances.
veringer · 1 points · Posted at 18:10:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't know if it's 90%, but too many people don't know about or understand the survivorship bias. Whether it's business, or economics, or science, or sports; we tend to only tell the stories of the winners while ignoring the non-winners. This tends to distort reality. Incidentally, this distortion is a central aspect of the so called "American Dream".
jrsooner · 1 points · Posted at 18:10:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just because something is more expensive, in no way means that it is better.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:10:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Statistics
BattleCatalyst · 1 points · Posted at 18:10:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
how to use a turn signal
Eladm2106 · 1 points · Posted at 18:10:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Stock market
monstermase · 1 points · Posted at 18:10:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Money won't buy you happiness
rzrshrp · 1 points · Posted at 18:10:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The difference between a tax deduction and a tax credit.
Also, how tax brackets work, i.e., having a higher gross income will never mean a smaller paycheck because of you moved into a higher tax bracket. There may be some other tax loopholes to cause that but not tax brackets.
BearWaver · 1 points · Posted at 18:10:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A zipper merge
J662b486h · 1 points · Posted at 18:11:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When it comes to conspiracy theorists and science-deniers (anti-vaxxers, Obama "birthers", flat-earthers, moon mission faked, etc), providing evidence that proves they're wrong will not change their minds. It usually will have an impact however - it will make them more convinced they're right. I often see people say things like "What if we had a telescope powerful enough to actually show them the moon landing sites?" (it means the government is really desperate to fake the moon landings, they're spending thousands of dollars to build fake telescopes). "What if we take flat-earthers into space and show them the earth is round?" (wow, the government built a virtual-reality ride to simulate a space mission, that proves it's a conspiracy).
These people do not base their beliefs on "evidence" so providing them evidence will have no impact. They already know they're right. However, the act of attempting to change their minds convinces them even more that the conspiracy is real.
PM_YOUR_WALLPAPER · 1 points · Posted at 18:11:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
99% of people have no idea what an Investment Banker really does.
TJaySteno · 1 points · Posted at 18:11:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Move right if you're going slow! On the highway, on an escalator, on the sidewalk IDC. Let me get around your fat ass!
....or skinny ass or whatever.
itsjustsimplyamazing · 1 points · Posted at 18:11:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That you SHOULDN'T take advice from 90% of people. Look into things that are best for your own life and figure things out for yourself.
ais5174 · 1 points · Posted at 18:11:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to change a toilet paper roll.
That "anyway" doesn't have a fucking S on it.
the_j0b0t · 1 points · Posted at 18:11:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That walking in a bike lane on a college campus is about the same as walking in the road and that I won't feel bad if I run into you while I'm trying to bike to class.
UnpaintedHuffheinz · 1 points · Posted at 18:11:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"Buy one get one free" does not mean you got one for free. You got 50% off both.
Similarly "buy one get one half off" does not mean you got one for half off. You got both for 25% off.
Recidive · 1 points · Posted at 18:11:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Quantum physics. Dumb fucks
Soup44 · 1 points · Posted at 18:11:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
that north koreas dollar store nukes arent actually a threat
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:11:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A lot of people on here trying to justify whatever world.view they hold without explicitly saying it. Tbh this is a bit of a subjective circlejerk... sooooooooooo: the top tenth percentile's answers that the bottom percentiles failed to answer on the compulsory national mathematics SAT test.
chompythebeast · 1 points · Posted at 18:11:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Good and Evil are really just opinions or perspectives - nothing less, nothing more.
They certainly aren't physical forces of the Universe like Gravity, and as such they can never be objectively defined. Everyone has their own ideas of what's good and what's not, and the things we really like (such as life and health) we tend to call Good, while the things we really don't like (such as things that disrupt life or health) get labeled Evil. But when disputes arise as to whether something is Good or Evil, we only have our individual and/or collective opinions on the matter to point to - we can't point at any universal, objective, scientific baseline to determine what is unquestionably Good and what is undoubtedly Evil in the way we could, for example, prove which of two surfaces was hotter or colder.
EDIT :Moreover, a lot of people have a hard time understanding how someone could believe that Good and Evil don't materially exist without becoming an amoral monster. But the truth is we tend to do the things we do (and don't do the things we don't do) because they tend to benefit us, not because we're afraid of breaking the rules. It is far more beneficial to us all that we don't go around raping, murdering and pillaging all the time, and that is enough reason not to do it; abstract ideas of morality are probably inevitable, but they are simply not necessary to foster thriving societies
nomnommish · 1 points · Posted at 18:11:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Probability. Just because you won a coin toss (or your casino game) 5 times in a row, doesn't make it more likely that you will win the next time.
catdude142 · 1 points · Posted at 18:11:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Given that the average U.S. citizen has less than $1,000 in their savings account, I'd say:
Personal finance
Source: Google average savings balance U.S.
halfadder · 1 points · Posted at 18:12:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Statistics
Zxar12 · 1 points · Posted at 18:12:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That theirs is only one of billions of potentially different perspectives.
plexuses · 1 points · Posted at 18:12:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Personal Space
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:12:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Avoiding your doctor doesn't cure you.
DandelionTanuki · 1 points · Posted at 18:13:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
We were on a break!!!
tedfletcher · 1 points · Posted at 18:13:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Politics
Mr-G-G · 1 points · Posted at 18:13:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Other people.
iplaythdrums · 1 points · Posted at 18:13:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
themselves.
ThatShwaGuy · 1 points · Posted at 18:13:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You can always do your best. But you can't always be the best.
throwaway17oz · 1 points · Posted at 18:14:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
ITT Reddit: What is something everyone already knows
shibbyfoo · 1 points · Posted at 18:14:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Free will doesn't exist
RollSomeCoal · 1 points · Posted at 18:14:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That rpm on your blower, or any vacuum for that matter goes very high when it moves no air. Further, that airflow and vacuum are not the same and it requires a combination of the two to do any real work.
Remember people all things remaining the same, as rpm goes up and amps go down your moving less air. You can have a perfect vacuum and move no air.
suitedcrabs · 1 points · Posted at 18:14:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not getting pissed at the little things in everyday life makes you much happier overall
gnrp45 · 1 points · Posted at 18:14:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The refrigerant in Air conditioners and cars doesn't just disappear. If your told u need some refrigerant its because you have a leak.
USCplaya · 1 points · Posted at 18:14:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Complaining to a cashier or other entry level employee about a company policy just makes you look like an ass. They can't change it, don't care enough to "let the higher ups know" even if they could, and they probably hate the policy too since they have to listen to people like you telling them to change it
DownvoteGargler · 1 points · Posted at 18:14:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Evolution is a passive process that affects populations, not an active process that affects individuals.
SmokeyDaBandit77 · 1 points · Posted at 18:14:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Inflation
Paradoxiclust · 1 points · Posted at 18:14:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When waiting for an elevator, pressing both "Up" and "Down" buttons is not going to get you an elvator any faster! Some goes for repressing the buttons.
metastasized · 1 points · Posted at 18:14:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The error message that pops up on your computer screen is important and does pertain to the issue you are having.
tunaman808 · 1 points · Posted at 18:14:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How restaurants work. I can't tell you how many times I've heard someone say "$10.95 for a plate of spaghetti? I can make this at home for $2!".
Yes, you may be correct in that the restaurant has only paid around $2 for the raw materials to make a $10.95 plate of spaghetti. But restaurants also have to pay rent. They have to pay for managers, cooks, dishwashers and busboys. They have to pay for water, electricity and gas (not trivial expenses for restaurants). They have to pay for lawyers, accountants and web developers. They have to pay for tables, chairs, flatware, glassware and dishes. They have to pay for insurance and advertising.
But even when people recognize this, they always seem to ignore similar expenses for home cooking. Yes, you could maybe buy the stuff to make a plate of spaghetti for $2... but you also have to pay rent or a mortgage. You have to pay for insurance - not just for your home, but also for your car, which you'll need to buy the groceries. Add fuel, ad valorem taxes and maintenance on the car, too. There's electricity and gas to make the food, and to clean everything up afterwards, too. Those dishes and the table you eat off of weren't free, either.
Point is, you can't hold a restaurant's prices up to one standard, but ignore your own costs, too.
aarontvallejo · 1 points · Posted at 18:14:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Women
phikapbob · 1 points · Posted at 18:15:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Percentages
bill_boi2k2 · 1 points · Posted at 18:15:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ethno-nationalism and ethno-supremacy aren't the same thing.
fantasiaflyer · 1 points · Posted at 18:15:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Mental disorders and how the brain functions in general. Anxiety and depression are not just bad moods you can 'get over'. Drug addicts don't lack self-restraint, the ability for self-restraint is physically impossible/heavily impaired. And no one neurotransmitter is responsible for any behavior.
SonOfTheLivingGod · 1 points · Posted at 18:15:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to parallel park
nerdqueenhydra · 1 points · Posted at 18:15:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No matter how many times your coin landed on tails, there's still exactly a 50/50 chance it'll land on heads with each flip.
igloo_and_the_cow · 1 points · Posted at 18:15:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You cannot reason Fascism away. It taps into emotions, not arguments. That is why attempting to debate against fascists is a waste of time. The germans know it, and that is why it is illegal to make the Nazi salute or any kind of Nazi discourse in there. Regardless of any right to free speech.
SpartanS240 · 1 points · Posted at 18:15:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to work as a team.
yomomma318 · 1 points · Posted at 18:15:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Taxes (I'm an accountant, they keep me in business).
Ghostman-TX · 1 points · Posted at 18:15:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Left lane is the fast lane not the chill lane, mane.
ParsnipParadise · 1 points · Posted at 18:15:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you give an opinion that wasn't asked for, it will fall on deaf ears.
grifxdonut · 1 points · Posted at 18:15:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Bias and statistics.
People dont understand that because they think theyre right, they might not be. And they also dont understand that just because (e.g.) women are typically weaker than men, it doesnt mean all men are weaker than all women. Hearing stuff like that makes them bust out 10 examples of how X is wrong
MichaelTen · 1 points · Posted at 18:15:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Most people do not understand that suicide should be respected as a civil and human right for adults.
Most people do not understand that psychiatric slavery is when individuals earn money from psychiatric coercion, force, and confinement.
/r/suicidelaws
/r/antipsychiatry
TheBEastymofo · 1 points · Posted at 18:15:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sarcasm
snoochyboochy46 · 1 points · Posted at 18:15:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I AM NOT GAY!
krwdf5 · 1 points · Posted at 18:15:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Calculus.
Monkeymash99 · 1 points · Posted at 18:15:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I thought this would be full of fun things like "you can't lick your elbow"
Instead it is full of self righteousness and vitriol
GyantSpyder · 1 points · Posted at 18:15:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Other people don't have to do what you tell them to do.
Suddenly_Suitable · 1 points · Posted at 18:16:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Economics
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:16:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The left lane is for passing.
fatboyroy · 1 points · Posted at 18:16:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
correlation doesnt equal causation
AbeLincolnsFreckles · 1 points · Posted at 18:16:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Basic traffic laws.
linkscorchio · 1 points · Posted at 18:16:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Religion is following somebody else's spiritual story. Spirituality is following your own path to a higher state of consciousness where you can then become a brighter being of love.
MoccaFixer · 1 points · Posted at 18:16:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Politics
OboNet · 1 points · Posted at 18:16:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
that there is no God, no magic friend, nothing.
CerberusSol · 1 points · Posted at 18:16:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When hanging out, you don't always have to talk. Silence is okay sometimes, and conversations don't need to be forced just for the sake of talking.
OhWhatUpBob · 1 points · Posted at 18:16:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How the US Government works
Alexiish · 1 points · Posted at 18:16:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How blinkers work
Draiko · 1 points · Posted at 18:16:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Maybe not 90% but in light of recent events...
Superiority isn't declared, it's earned.
If you think you're superior to others, you have nothing to lose by making sure the playing field is level. You should be able to win any challenge with one hand tied behind your back.
So, prove it. Focus your efforts on leveling the playing field. Make sure everyone starts from the same start line, runs the same race, and crosses the same finish line. Don't stack the deck. No steroids, no paying off the ref, no cheating... Fair fight.
If you think you're so fucking superior, you should win no matter what, right? Even with one hand tied behind your back, right?
So... Prove it, motherfuckers. Level the fucking playing field and back up those hateful fucking words of yours. I dare you! I fucking dare you all!
(Sorry, I'm pretty pissed at what's been going on lately)
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:17:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Geologist here. Minerals are not magical, they will not heal you. That hippie that is selling them to you is a predator and preys on the sick.
Having some crystal will not synchronize your aura with the vibrations of the universe or whatever shit they tell you. Eat right, stay active, consult a real doctor.
Angel2j · 1 points · Posted at 18:17:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Climate Change.
vguytech · 1 points · Posted at 18:17:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Math.
ICanHasCheez · 1 points · Posted at 18:17:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That we are all one. The elites powerful wealthy loves to divide us with propaganda and media hype to keep us distracted from the real issues such as the wealth gap and outright greed. I don't think our racism is nowhere near the levels our media would like to make it out to be.
In my experience the only flagrant racism I've seen and heard about is in the confines of our jail and prison systems. Besides the media ofc. I think we would all be better off if we put down the msm and actually interacted with each other. My two cents ....thx for reading.
LackofNOcuriosity · 1 points · Posted at 18:17:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Turn signals
Hit__ · 1 points · Posted at 18:17:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
R-E-S-P-E-C-T
-PM-ME-YOUR-BOOBIES · 1 points · Posted at 18:17:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The other 10%
Gitanes · 1 points · Posted at 18:17:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Evolution.
amn70 · 1 points · Posted at 18:17:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That religious scripture is not evidence that a god exists.
dragonslayer817 · 1 points · Posted at 18:17:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The "wage gap" between men and women
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:17:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Reddit.
SynopticOutlander · 1 points · Posted at 18:17:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The absolute truth and gravity of death.
BearcatChemist · 1 points · Posted at 18:17:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The difference between shining, retracting, and reflecting.
Shine bright like a diamond? No. That's refraction.
Moon shines bright? No. That's reflection.
Sun shines? Yes. The sun gives off it's own light.
Rogermcfarley · 1 points · Posted at 18:17:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
English
kukucachoo24 · 1 points · Posted at 18:17:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not to talk while someone else is talking.
IzIxchel · 1 points · Posted at 18:17:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The concept of a goddamn turn signal.
ToasterPoppin · 1 points · Posted at 18:17:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That other people's opinions may be different to yours but that doesn't mean their opinion is wrong
caymantwo · 1 points · Posted at 18:17:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How bacteria and viruses work.
JamesTrendall · 1 points · Posted at 18:18:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Coconut water is moneky piss....
Seriously. Monkeys make the three holes in the top of a coconut and piss in to them, They then fill the holes with mud and drop them on the floor.
This way they keep their favortie climbing trees and beaches clean from piss... Humans collect these and drink the liqued...
STOP DRINKING MONEKY URINE YOU!
hyartus · 1 points · Posted at 18:18:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you're going to CHANGE LANES or MAKE A TURN, use your BLINKER.
wlane13 · 1 points · Posted at 18:18:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That jumping from lane to lane in traffic doesnt help things... whichever lane you switch to WILL be the slowest lane.. its DARK MAGIC... accept it.
Lowzone1 · 1 points · Posted at 18:18:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That 90% of statistics on the internet are made up.
autodidactin · 1 points · Posted at 18:18:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Logical fallacies
username_unavailable · 1 points · Posted at 18:18:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How insurance works.
From an insurance ad that runs way too often in my part of the US:
"I got in one little accident and my rates went up. What's the point of even having insurance if you get punished every time you use it?"
WorbianBrownia · 1 points · Posted at 18:18:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Governments want to maintain the status quo - not improve the situation.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:18:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just because someone smiles a lot and is nice and polite doesn't mean they're a generally happy person.
techsupportwtf · 1 points · Posted at 18:19:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Nuance exists
butters1214 · 1 points · Posted at 18:19:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Basic finances
PompiPompi · 1 points · Posted at 18:19:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That adults/politician/people in formal positions are as just as silly and sometimes not mature as young people.
MuaddibMcFly · 1 points · Posted at 18:19:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That Ranked voting systems will not, and cannot, break the two party system.
Every demonstration of its benefits, every video you see extolling the virtues of ranked choice, makes the same assumption: that the third candidate never had a chance at winning.
Under ranked systems, that's a self fulfilling prophesy, for reasons demonstrated here.
Range voting (think Amazon 5 Star ratings, but for candidates) solves this problem, and is used by the Olympics (judging gymnastics, etc), the UN (selecting secretary general), Surveys and Polls (Strongly Dislike/Dislike/Neutral/Like/Strongly Like is a 5 star rating).
zambonibill21 · 1 points · Posted at 18:19:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Turn signals.
esspydermonkey · 1 points · Posted at 18:19:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Turn signals. Wait this might just be 90% of BMW drivers.
JDewaine · 1 points · Posted at 18:19:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
PEMDAS
bravelittledandelion · 1 points · Posted at 18:19:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Other people's point of view
UpvotesMultiplier · 1 points · Posted at 18:19:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It takes 43 muscles to frown and only 17 muscles to smile. Better to smile.
Slippy_T_Frog · 1 points · Posted at 18:19:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In Overwatch, pushing the payload on offense will slowly heal you.
ddmf · 1 points · Posted at 18:19:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Thermostats - don't turn it right up thinking it will get warmer more quickly - you'll just get used to the increased heat and waste energy. Set it at a comfortable level and the heat will cut out and in to match your setting, saving energy.
ibgp · 1 points · Posted at 18:19:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to quickly board, and exit an airplane
breadnbutterr · 1 points · Posted at 18:19:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Skin color doesn't define who you are
Docxoxxo · 1 points · Posted at 18:19:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
North Korea
BriHen · 1 points · Posted at 18:20:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to successfully merge onto a highway, or the purpose of the high speed lane.
Athena_Nikephoros · 1 points · Posted at 18:20:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The scientific method, evolution by natural selection, and animal biodiversity.
Rusty_Bumper · 1 points · Posted at 18:20:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
YOU DONT NEED A THYROID COLLAR
The_Cantabrigian · 1 points · Posted at 18:20:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The willingness to admit when you're wrong about something will open up so much more of the world to you than you ever imagined.
MisterDonut13 · 1 points · Posted at 18:20:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Turn signals
Treemurphy · 1 points · Posted at 18:20:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
minors are capable of thought and research
blooper2112 · 1 points · Posted at 18:20:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You have to cycle your fish tank before fully stocking it. In other words slowly add in very hardy fish. A filter is necessary to not just make the water look clear but to also house bacteria that eat the toxic ammonia fish produce. These bacteria take time to develop into thriving colonies that can eat the ammonia at a rate that the fish produce it.
Also perform periodic partial water changes. But that's another story. For more technical understanding just google "aquarium nitrogen cycle".
Raltie · 1 points · Posted at 18:20:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Truth is not subjective.
djs758 · 1 points · Posted at 18:20:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Politicians with close ties to big donors will never serve the interests of the working class.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:21:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Life !!
NayMarine · 1 points · Posted at 18:21:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
don't try to help a person who does not ask for it. when they do ask for help don't be an arse
Crunkbutter · 1 points · Posted at 18:21:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Calculus
_tmoney12 · 1 points · Posted at 18:21:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I wouldn't say 90% of people but I see a lot of people use "fluent" instead of "fluid" Ex: "It should be one fluid motion, not one fluent motion.
braedenbear · 1 points · Posted at 18:21:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
DNS
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:22:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Their own motivations, feelings, etc.
metalvinny · 1 points · Posted at 18:22:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Tailgating will get you killed.
ZappaBaggins · 1 points · Posted at 18:22:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That you aren't dead until you're actually dead... then you stay dead. Your heart stopped, you received CPR, and were revived? You didn't die. You're heart stopped, but most of your biological functions remained intact and you were still alive.
Source: I stop and start people's hearts every day at work.
DlProgan · 1 points · Posted at 18:22:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That evolution and the laws of the jungle trumps man made forms of government. Democracy or whatever it might be.
That courts and tribunals is only a theater to make people feel righteous about using force on another being.
maxpoonage · 1 points · Posted at 18:22:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That a 1% chance doesnt mean you will succeed for sure in 100 tries.
DankusPlebius · 1 points · Posted at 18:22:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When Starcraft remastered will be released
GoatChease · 1 points · Posted at 18:23:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"Sorry it's been delayed to August 14th 2018."
kbaltimore22 · 1 points · Posted at 18:22:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Time is relative.
TIAT323 · 1 points · Posted at 18:22:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That having no boundaries will make people like you. Nope, they'll disrespect you and walk all over you.
JesterRaiin · 1 points · Posted at 18:22:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Judging by online comments: that things rarely are black or white and shouldn't be reduced to binary "this or that only" choices.
USCplaya · 1 points · Posted at 18:22:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That "Evolution" is a proven fact. And Darwins "Theory of evolution by natural selection" is the theory, which in science is as good as it gets since science is always changing as our intelligence grows. Calling it a theory like it is an insult is ridiculous and makes you look dumb. It means that nobody has been able to provide any science that debunks his theory which is backed by scientific fact.
To go back to my first statement, "Evolution" is factual based on the fact that we can and have observed it happen.
catsies · 1 points · Posted at 18:22:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Trumps presidency
couchjitsu · 1 points · Posted at 18:22:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That 10% of the population is still 700 million people.
Stephanstewart101 · 1 points · Posted at 18:22:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Voting changes nothing.
PalazzoNick · 1 points · Posted at 18:23:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That a crosswalk is used to walk across the street
MirriMazDuur · 1 points · Posted at 18:23:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How logic and arguments work! What does and what does not count as an argument, when and how you can appeal to authority, etc.
CyberianSun · 1 points · Posted at 18:23:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That the 2008 housing market collapse was not the doing of some cabal of bankers with nefarious intentions. It was a cascading systemic failure. Based on good intentions, stupidity, bad business practices, and a quite frankly unimaginable amount of easy money. A lot of people had a piece of the big picture but no one put it together until it was too late to do anything about. And no one person or group of people is truly at fault for it happening. It was a growing problem for years, its just that when the floor fell out, it really fell out.
MisterDonut13 · 1 points · Posted at 18:23:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You don't get to decide if you're a good person. When someone calls you an asshole, you don't get to make excuses like how long of a day you've had and point fingers like everything is everyone else's fault and not yours. Take responsibility for your actions.
BobFriskit · 1 points · Posted at 18:23:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
We need a DANG healer!
Zefiro · 1 points · Posted at 18:23:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Marketing actually does affect you. . .yes, you. . .it actually does.
RedBear420Yolo · 1 points · Posted at 18:23:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Self awareness.
markpas · 1 points · Posted at 18:24:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Almost anything technological. I'm among them.
SXSJest · 1 points · Posted at 18:24:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The definition of insanity has nothing to do with "doing the same thing but expecting different results"
Gnometard · 1 points · Posted at 18:24:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
feelings don't dictate reality.
wrkyle · 1 points · Posted at 18:24:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You're not buying a bag of air when you buy potato chips. It tells you on the package how many grams of chips are in the bag.
Frequently the price per 100g is on the price label too. Use your big ape brain and figure out which provides the better value and thank the heavens that they do pump the bags full of air. You'd be much less happy if they didn't.
cmbgeekbear · 1 points · Posted at 18:24:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Fluid dynamics.
th3nambl3r · 1 points · Posted at 18:24:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The difference between asocial and antisocial
rob_the_bruce_1274 · 1 points · Posted at 18:24:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The electoral college
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:24:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's fine to just sit quietly with someone. This usually doesn't go on long naturally, maybe a few minutes. You're not obligated to prevent silence. Don't worry about hurrying to think of a new subject or a question to ask or something. You don't seem weird or stupid if you let the silence run its course or stay.
Edit for a related point: Someone being very quiet doesn't mean they're depressed or angry. Asking "Why are you so quiet?" or saying "Wow, I never see you outside of your place" can really put someone off, though it's usually said in good humor or to start a conversation. Feel free to ask how they are or if they need anything, unless they've stated that they want to be left alone.
insomniacDad · 1 points · Posted at 18:24:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You can't just throw everything in the dishwasher and expect it to be clean. The top rack is for bowls and cups.
Delilahhaze · 1 points · Posted at 18:24:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That if you eat meat and dairy, you don't love animals. You just love pets.
gaviidae · 1 points · Posted at 18:25:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That people who vote for a different political party aren't bad people. That they care about fellow citizens just as much as people of your party do. They have different ideas about how to best help them but all parties (that have some success) want to create the best country they can.
Geekronimous · 1 points · Posted at 18:25:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Apparently, based on your question. Statistics.
lizbuchannan · 1 points · Posted at 18:25:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Politics in America...
thesterlingscythe · 1 points · Posted at 18:25:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
discrimination against gay/trans people can still legally happen. there is nothing in the constitution saying that discriminating because of sexual identity or gender identity isn't illegal.
and that politicians are using "religious freedom laws" in order to discriminate against gay people. you can't legally deny service to someone because of the colour of their skin on religious basis, so why in the FUCK is it legal for you to discriminate against people due to their sexual orientation on religious basis.
this isn't a gay rights issue, this is a civil rights issue.
Drunner · 1 points · Posted at 18:25:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Body weight is the result of calories in vs calories out for 99.9% of the population who have no genetic disorders related to metabolism.
Lord_Snow77 · 1 points · Posted at 18:25:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
4 way stops.
kmorneau15 · 1 points · Posted at 18:25:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Where North Korea is
trademark823 · 1 points · Posted at 18:25:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Cable, Everyone seems to think they're experts. Especially electrical engineers. Who 99% of the time are incorrect when it comes to cable wiring
OldSchoolNewRules · 1 points · Posted at 18:25:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Going faster on the highway and weaving between lanes causes traffic.
Gacode · 1 points · Posted at 18:26:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How Rotten Tomatoes really work.
RedditPeopleSocks · 1 points · Posted at 18:26:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Statistics.
ifaptolatex · 1 points · Posted at 18:26:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Statistics and their sources
AverageScruffy · 1 points · Posted at 18:26:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Driving.
rjohnson446 · 1 points · Posted at 18:26:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Your and you're, there their and they're.
StrayshotNA · 1 points · Posted at 18:26:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There is no amount of selfless action that can make someone value you when they don't value your contributions.
Nomduweb · 1 points · Posted at 18:26:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Four way stops.
theblueduece84 · 1 points · Posted at 18:26:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That they should buy bitcoin
Uncle_Horse · 1 points · Posted at 18:27:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The majority of what we experience has been cultivated and provided to us in order to keep people from making the best decisions out of self-interest.
ilovevoat · 1 points · Posted at 18:27:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
turn signals.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:27:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
90 percent of Reddit is ran by A.I.
bitcoinsSG · 1 points · Posted at 18:27:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Bitcoin
SkyPork · 1 points · Posted at 18:27:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Racism is hardwired into our brains, leftover from our tribal roots. It takes a lot of effort and diligence to overcome it.
FaliusAren · 0 points · Posted at 19:17:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
what no
-IIII---405---IIII- · 1 points · Posted at 18:27:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That Bitcoin is the single most important thing happening in our world. It has the potential to remove the power from the ultra rich.
lordcirth · 1 points · Posted at 18:43:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Bitcoin is pretty cool, but it's hardly going to replace capitalism by itself - if you want that, go start a co-op.
FaliusAren · 1 points · Posted at 19:16:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
ELI5 why Bitcoin couldn't have it's own ultra rich
-IIII---405---IIII- · 1 points · Posted at 22:03:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Whatever individual or group Satoshi Nakamoto is, who owns the Bitcoins from the Genesis block... if Bitcoin does gain widespread adoption as not just an investment vehicle, but currency, they will become the richest most powerful entity on the planet.
But the coins have never moved........ Maybe he lost the key =]
FaliusAren · 1 points · Posted at 21:43:42 on August 18, 2017 · (Permalink)
...what?
how exactly are they going to get rich
the creator doesn't collect royalties off every transaction does he
-IIII---405---IIII- · 1 points · Posted at 23:30:31 on August 18, 2017 · (Permalink)
Because he owns more bitcoins than anyone else from being the first person to run the mining software. He has millions and millions of dollars worth of bitcoins... But none of them have ever been spent of even moved.
FaliusAren · 1 points · Posted at 00:48:44 on August 19, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm not knowledgeable on the topic, but if we don't know the creator's identity, does that not imply we don't know if they mine Bitcoins? How can we be sure they were never moved if we don't know who they are?
-IIII---405---IIII- · 1 points · Posted at 01:04:13 on August 19, 2017 · (Permalink)
Because we can tell by looking at the block chain that the first coins mined have never moved. It's called the Genesis block.
You know... It's pretty interesting shit... And it's worth educating yourself on. Im making some pretty good money trading cryptos right now.
FaliusAren · 1 points · Posted at 02:41:35 on August 19, 2017 · (Permalink)
You've managed to start making "some pretty good money" in 5 days? Impressive.
Also, "looking at the block chain" must be an insanely inefficient way of checking someone's balance. It would only make sense to look at transactions directly involving the person in question. Indeed, the address receiving the reward or Block 0 has never spent a penny. If this page is to be trusted, however, said reward cannot be spent... Leaving the guy with 16 BTC. Probably still a huge amount of money, I suppose, but hardly as impressive as that initial 50...
BanzaiTree · 1 points · Posted at 18:27:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
History
supernes420 · 1 points · Posted at 18:27:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That bisexuality is valid.
thenozehair · 1 points · Posted at 18:27:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Interest rates
arthur2-shedsjackson · 1 points · Posted at 18:27:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you are not actively passing someone get over to the right lane.
killmeverlierer · 1 points · Posted at 18:27:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
most traffic is caused by people trying to get to their own house faster than anyone else... you win.
Devych · 1 points · Posted at 18:28:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That the wage gap is a myth
rredline · 1 points · Posted at 18:28:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Basic thermodynamics. If it's cooler insider than it is outside, and you want to keep it that way, DON'T OPEN A WINDOW! "But there is a nice breeze outside..."
technicaldrunk · 1 points · Posted at 18:28:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Why kids love cinnamon toast crunch
noisyturtle · 1 points · Posted at 18:28:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Supporting free speech means learning to accept ideas that you may disagree with. As soon as you start the segregation of ideas and telling others their beliefs are wrong, you are actively harming the notion of free thought.
AHeartOfGoal · 1 points · Posted at 18:28:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That the government does not have direct control of health insurance prices in the US. When they raise premiums, it's not because they "have to". The companies do it for profit and profit alone.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:28:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Inventing nefarious ends to ones proposed means is not only disingenuous and often false, but also counterintuitive to finding a solution. This is true of all verbal disputes and particularly cancerous in politics.
jtwin73 · 1 points · Posted at 18:28:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Punctuation.
LightningMcFap · 1 points · Posted at 18:28:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Employees of retail are people too.
AkiraMJ · 1 points · Posted at 18:28:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That two people can have different opinions.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:28:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Windows 10 is shit
RealityIsFun · 1 points · Posted at 18:35:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:28:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That there were also communists at Charlottesville who were also violent, it was literally two extreme ends of the spectrum there, and fuck both of them.
Niloc0905 · 1 points · Posted at 18:28:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Mayonnaise isn't a dairy product, it is egg based.
ohreddit1 · 1 points · Posted at 18:28:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Distribution of national currency.
ReidyP5400 · 1 points · Posted at 18:28:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Theoretical physics
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:28:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Economics
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:28:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Apparently turn signals, birth control and common sense.
moond0gs · 1 points · Posted at 18:29:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Don't hit reply all when you're in an email chain you don't want to be in. Just delete it and move on.
avenlanzer · 1 points · Posted at 18:29:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The reason it takes a while to get your paperwork or order, or other submission processed is because you aren't special and you aren't first. You send it in, it is put in line to be dealt with when the others in that came before are done.
kicknchickn813 · 1 points · Posted at 18:29:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to use a turn signal
Sussurator · 1 points · Posted at 18:29:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Compounding: Einstein says it's the 8th wonder of the world and I think that is understating it. I only truly started appreciating it when I started investing but have started to see its effect on all aspects of my life, I try and compound myself daily exponentially developing everything from my marketable skills to the distance I cycle on my excercise bike.
sizzlinsucculent · 1 points · Posted at 18:29:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The difference between their, there, and they're.
beaverteeth92 · 1 points · Posted at 18:29:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Voting isn't about electing a perfect candidate. It's about voting for the candidate who best aligns with your views.
bluemavis · 1 points · Posted at 18:29:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Bad Customers (Lots of them) of (frequently) minimum wage earners:
You are not a king/queen. The cashier doesn't work FOR YOU. You are participating in a transaction of give/take. Your mild frustration is not cause for the entire world to end because "you are unhappy" with whatever small thing has inconvenienced you (a long wait, a price check, a damaged item, an expired return.)Be respectful. Your money doesn't buy you the right to abuse people, whether they're on the clock or not.
Just because you happened to notice me, it doesn't mean I have the answer you are seeking to your question, or the resolution to your problem. Asking nicely before launching into your demands is probably well advised. Also - sometimes people just don't know the answer to what you want. It's not a justification for your anger. "WHAT?? you mean you don't sell doo-hickeys? WHY?"
Just because the question crossed your mind, it doesn't mean you deserve or should command an immediate, satisfactory answer. "BUT HOW LONG?????" maybe there is no answer. Maybe everyone is just doing there best.
A minimum wage employee is not going to fix your problem, or care about it, nor should they in many cases. "You are sold OUT of CHOCOLATE?!" or "Why aren't there more cashiers?" barked at the harried seventeen year old. Totally unnecessary. Call or speak to someone senior that can actually address your problem.
Waiting in line is your CHOICE no one forces you to wait. If you don't like it, DON'T WAIT. Don't yell at the clerk.
waxman57 · 1 points · Posted at 18:29:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That you are supposed to walk on the right side of the staircase.
Virlas · 1 points · Posted at 18:29:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That human minds are are almost as basic as a circuit board and way more manipulative as we want to believe it really is. while lying to try and prove that we have some vague form of control.
iSikhEquanimity · 1 points · Posted at 18:29:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Most people do not have to eat everyday and would be healthier if they didn't.
ka-pow-pow · 1 points · Posted at 18:29:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Uniform acceleration.
TheMarionCobretti · 1 points · Posted at 18:29:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Thermal features at Yellowstone National Park
BroknTrust · 1 points · Posted at 18:29:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Gas pedal is on the right!
Digital_Economist · 1 points · Posted at 18:29:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Confirmation bias.
mechfan555 · 1 points · Posted at 18:29:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
money
pwolf1771 · 1 points · Posted at 18:29:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I don't know if this counts but 90% of people have no fucking plan. They just kind of float around assuming things will just work out...
EnXigma · 1 points · Posted at 18:29:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Turning something Off and On again could be the fix to many electronic problems.
mckulty · 1 points · Posted at 18:30:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you let rich people keep more of their tax money, they will not spend it hiring poor people.
hagamablabla · 1 points · Posted at 18:30:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You can like someone even if you disagree with them. Honestly, you don't have to agree with someone on everything just because you like them
TheUltimateSalesman · 1 points · Posted at 18:30:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Take the higher rate and lower fees.
oops_sorry_officer · 1 points · Posted at 18:30:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Left lane is for passing
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:30:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to drive in traffic. Instead of flooring the gas and slamming on the brakes a million times - drive slower and coast further to break up the traffic.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:30:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The flu is not a gastrointestinal illness.
Professor-md · 1 points · Posted at 18:30:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Death. Specifically, end of life care and not "doing every thing". Just because something can be done doesn't mean it should.
cpt-native-america · 1 points · Posted at 18:30:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That a healthy body, including mental and emotional health, can be obtained with a tailored exercise regime and moderate intake of nutrients that your body needs.
nayan742 · 1 points · Posted at 18:30:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
They're/there/their
lizbuchannan · 1 points · Posted at 18:30:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There Their They're
rosebyanyothername_ · 1 points · Posted at 18:30:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That other people can hear your conversation.
When my mom and uncle are gossiping about me on the other side of the room, I can hear everything they're saying, even if they're whispering. I'm not deaf.
spitefulsyrup · 1 points · Posted at 18:30:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That some things would just be better if we agreed to disagree
englishwebster · 1 points · Posted at 18:30:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That humans naturally tend to hang out with their own race.
RealityIsFun · 2 points · Posted at 18:34:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes, humans do hang out with other humans.
I agree.
englishwebster · 1 points · Posted at 18:36:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
yup. and black people tend to hang out with black people, chinese tend to hang out with chinese, etc.
the definition of true diversity is when you can go somewhere else on the planet and find a culture and people different from your own, instead of just blending everyone into one nation.
RealityIsFun · 1 points · Posted at 18:37:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It'll happen. aliens just need to invade and start killing all of us. Then we'll look to each other and say "you're human so we are the same"
As it should be.
This is early days. Humanity hasn't really been tested, yet.
englishwebster · 1 points · Posted at 18:39:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I too hope for magical events to solve all our problems, but then my alarm goes off and I have to get out of bed
RealityIsFun · 1 points · Posted at 18:42:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well, at this rate we're probably going to destroy ourselves before unity happens. So it's a bit natural to lean on fantasy.
englishwebster · 1 points · Posted at 19:00:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
reminds me of every american in 1962 during the middle crisis.
Unity will never happen. In nature monkeys dont intermix. you never see gorillas hanging out with chimps.
If you believe in evolution, why do you think we would be exempt from that rule?
RealityIsFun · 1 points · Posted at 19:03:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well.... I'm gonna go with they aren't part of the same species. where as blacks, whites, asians, latinos are.
Because you know... We can fuck each other and pop out normal human babies. Because we are......
human first.
Because skin color doesn't define a separate species, genius. We are all homo sapiens.
Pretty sure a pit bull and a german shepard can fuck, despite looking completely different.
You know. genetics and evolution and shit.
englishwebster · 1 points · Posted at 19:06:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Do you believe that race only extends to skin color?
RealityIsFun · 1 points · Posted at 19:09:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not exactly. It's genetic differences through millennia of mixing.
Take a black man and a white woman. They pop out a baby. Baby doesn't look white or black. That kid goes off to marry someone like them. black/white parents. They do the same, then the same then the same. Over time they've created a group of people who look nothing like black or white despite having ancestry that leads to that.
It's not complicated. It just requires a little bit of abstract thinking.
You drawing a line in the sand saying we are different because of skin/hair/eye features is extremely ignorant.
englishwebster · 1 points · Posted at 19:17:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Im not sure that I am. I dont deny that we are a single species and that we cant interbreed. What I am trying to get across is that on a macro level people of a particular race tend to stick with themselves.
so when you see mass immigration into europe wherein you have a major difference in skin color between the two groups its not suprising you will see massive discord.
Many places have this problem - there is always a "china town" or "little italy" in major cities. people tend to stick to their own kind. I would counter by saying that trying to combat this through calling people racist or bigoted for following their own tendencies is extremely ignorant.
RealityIsFun · 2 points · Posted at 19:20:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That has more to do with having things in common than skin color. If we were one global government with a global language that wouldn't be the case.
englishwebster · 1 points · Posted at 19:26:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
and thank god there isnt global government. I know were going off on a tangent here, but consider that under a single government - should it go rogue...like say a dictatorship. who would save us?
diversity isnt just about race. its about having nations or groups of nations that represent an ideal that can debate and if necessary intervene.
case in point: germany 1939. if that was the global government what would we do?
im about to head out to work so please respond but realize I wont be able to do in kind for a few hours. apologies but dont think im avoiding you - im enjoying this debate!
RealityIsFun · 2 points · Posted at 19:57:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A more advanced human species, that was capable of being individual responsible, viewed each other as equal on the basis of humanity first. Could handle a global government. Because viewpoints on the basis of being a decent human were united. We aren't even close to that point. It would be nice because in order to truly advance our species to the stars and beyond we have to by default have a viewpoint like or similar to that. As it stands now we're 7 billion slightly less retarded apes overly caring about yourselves, our mundane lives and our feelings. And as a result you have shit like ISIS, Neo-nazi's, genocide and a bunch of other horrendous shit that shouldn't ever happen. I've said it before, aliens need to show up and start blowing shit up. We're too stupid to respect each other on a simple basis of being human.
englishwebster · 1 points · Posted at 20:33:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If we want to advance ourselves we need to raise our collective IQ's through the usual methods.
Different ideals are definately in play and you are right, some of them are pure shit. But I posit that its the conflict that creates the element needed in the evolutionary process that makes us better overall. in nature this is certainly the case - a species in trouble needs to adapt or die, which leads to a stronger species.
But putting that aside, be careful what you wish for when it comes to aliens. How many times in history did we see a more advanced culture meed a more primitive one and it worked out? zero.
RealityIsFun · 2 points · Posted at 21:04:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm ok with humanity being wiped out by a more advanced species. In my humble opinion we don't deserve existence. We've advanced ourselves to the point where information is but a few clicks away yet we seldom take advantage of it. There should be no reason to question what is already known. There should be no reason to be bias or hold false beliefs. For information is more available today than it ever has in human history. We as a collective group are going backwards.
englishwebster · 1 points · Posted at 21:11:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I was in that state too. I even joined the "voluntary extinction movement" when I was younger.
Try not to get down too much - I know humanity sucks but as with everything its a double edged sword. We have the longest lifespan ever known because of modern medicine, the internet allows us to interact and communicate, and we have all kinds of ways to make our lives better.
I agree we are going backwards right now, this is the natural ebb and flow of things. there is no such thing as a straight down or up curve, it pulsates, but the general trend is to go up.
RealityIsFun · 2 points · Posted at 21:14:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Very true and in my opinion global events cause tides to shift. Outbreak of war, Natural disasters, global powers falling. Something one day will cause a shift in consciousness globally. I have no idea what it will be but I'm excited to see the outcome of whatever that event is.
englishwebster · 2 points · Posted at 21:16:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Take of yourself mate - I really enjoyed this conversation. Excuse me while I throw some upvotes your way
RealityIsFun · 2 points · Posted at 21:19:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Same to you. :)
FaliusAren · 1 points · Posted at 18:35:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
uh
im pretty sure most people know this lol?
englishwebster · 1 points · Posted at 18:36:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
they dont. the modern term for it is racism.
The_Immortan_Joe · 1 points · Posted at 18:31:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The "Illegal" in illegal alien.
ChocoboSwarm · 1 points · Posted at 18:31:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'd say 90% or more of people don't seem to be truly posturally aware and how it's affecting them.
yodatswhack · 1 points · Posted at 18:31:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Being a dick to someone on a customer service line and then expecting them to want to help or care about the issue.
ravenfreak · 1 points · Posted at 18:31:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The difference between the words "your" and "you're".
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:31:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I would say about 90% of people have no statistic of an instance on top of there head that is a 90% miss understanding.
cockroachekaiser · 1 points · Posted at 18:31:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
HOW TO USE A FUCKING BLINKER!
Humble_Peanut_18_ · 1 points · Posted at 18:31:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you're in the left lane doing the speed limit, and someone behind you is going faster and closing in on you, get in the next lane. Not only courteous but makes the entire road safer
SkincareQuestions10 · 1 points · Posted at 18:32:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That all proteins are complete and there is no need to eat complementary proteins. "Rice and beans form a complete protein!" Lmao!
https://www.forksoverknives.com/the-myth-of-complementary-protein/
BillBongwater · 1 points · Posted at 18:32:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That the word forte is pronounced like fort, not fortay.
D33P_F1N · 1 points · Posted at 18:32:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Nuclear is gooddddddd ugh
haz3lnut · 1 points · Posted at 18:32:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That Bitcoin is going to $20k+
Bin_Better · 1 points · Posted at 18:32:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Politics. Everyone has opinions and that's fair but the majority don't what they're talking about and try to make opinions sounds like facts.
frandonbagle · 1 points · Posted at 18:32:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Politics
MChammer707 · 1 points · Posted at 18:32:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
'Free' college is not free.
arcarsination · 1 points · Posted at 18:33:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Water may be free, but delivering it to your door safe enough to drink is not.
ironpaed · 1 points · Posted at 18:33:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That other people are entitled to their opinions and right to express those opinions, no matter how much you disagree with them and even if they are wrong.
tomskerrittsghost · 1 points · Posted at 18:33:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Opinions are not something that needs to be swayed in any direction other than what the person stating them feels.
Zwarogi · 1 points · Posted at 18:33:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Marginal Tax Rate
brickwall5 · 1 points · Posted at 18:33:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Your job isn't more important than you.
Chinchillachimcheroo · 1 points · Posted at 18:33:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If the weather forecast says there is a 10% chance of rain, and then it rains, that doesn't mean they were wrong.
In fact, if it never rains when they give a 10% chance, that makes them wrong.
fataliss · 1 points · Posted at 18:33:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Percentages
drewdadobbie · 1 points · Posted at 18:33:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That when referring to you and someone doing something you say him and I not me and him. I know it's small but it seems like everyone has forgotten this.
bahnmiagain · 1 points · Posted at 18:33:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That facts matter more than emotion in politics.
PrinnyThePenguin · 1 points · Posted at 18:33:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Probability.
MyBawllzAreSaggin · 1 points · Posted at 18:33:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to take control of our lives, for the betterment of humanity.
apollopa · 1 points · Posted at 18:33:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Other people don't make you mad, you allow other people to make you mad.
spitefulsyrup · 1 points · Posted at 18:33:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That the republican and democratic party's both have valid points and most people aren't extremist of either side
liebz11692 · 1 points · Posted at 18:33:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Freedom of speech doesn't equal freedom from consequences of your speech.
Deception-Samurai · 1 points · Posted at 18:33:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Reality"
S4M4 · 1 points · Posted at 18:33:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The left lane is for passing.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:33:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You can not trust anyone but yourself.
cRaZyFaTnInJa · 1 points · Posted at 18:33:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Your supposed to use the turn signal to signal to other people that you're turning, its not some arbitrary signal that you do for no reason
Bresdin · 1 points · Posted at 18:34:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you are turning left in a large truck/suc dont pull way ahead of the small car turning right. That slows traffic down, if i can go on my end you can go on yours
bbcard1 · 1 points · Posted at 18:34:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Probably how to score a baseball game or bowling by hand.
HellaBrainCells · 1 points · Posted at 18:34:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
FPS
EhTrain · 1 points · Posted at 18:37:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
First person shooter? Or frames per second? Or frames per second in a first person shooter??
HellaBrainCells · 2 points · Posted at 18:40:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
90% of people aren't sure
anon_e_mous9669 · 1 points · Posted at 18:34:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The first amendment doesn't protect you from the consequences of your speech from anyone other than the government.
If you say terrible things, you can be fired, sued, arrested, etc.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:34:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to not look down on others for differing viewpoints. (The entirety of politics)
0bitchuary · 1 points · Posted at 18:34:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm pretty sure there are quite a few guests at the restaurant I work at who can't comprehend the fact that I have more than one table.
hremmingar · 1 points · Posted at 18:34:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Observer Effect
paullarosa20 · 1 points · Posted at 18:34:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
YOU CANT USE THE LEFT TURN LANE AS A FUCKING MERGE LANE
SirTickleTots · 1 points · Posted at 18:34:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Keep right except to pass
The illegal part of "illegal immigrant"
Turn signals
RossJohn · 1 points · Posted at 18:34:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you're trying to change someone's mind about something, labelling them a "bigot" will not accomplish that.
bistroh · 1 points · Posted at 18:34:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Politics.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:34:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Economics... Actually make that 98%
gordosan · 1 points · Posted at 18:35:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
cryptocurrency.
DoctorWH0877 · 1 points · Posted at 18:35:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
10% of everything else.
lightskyblue · 1 points · Posted at 18:35:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you say you will call, call. Otherwise don't say anything
Daedricbanana · 1 points · Posted at 18:35:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Freedom of speech means that you can say whatever you want but I can verbally respond to you by saying whatever I want. Freedom of speech is not a shield to stop people from criticising you
HolgEntertain · 1 points · Posted at 18:35:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's OK to be wrong. And if other people are wrong it doesn't mean they are idiots. You could be wrong about them being wrong.
catimirputin · 1 points · Posted at 18:35:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The difference between THC and CBD. Or hemp vs cannabis plants.
Explaining it gets exhausting.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:35:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you drive 2 feet behind another car and they have to suddenly slow down you are going to hit them.
randy_in_accounting · 1 points · Posted at 18:35:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Percentages
VaelinX · 1 points · Posted at 18:35:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That truth, like beauty, is something that falls under philosophy and not science.
Science is about facts, not truth. Truth, and often other philosophical and religious constructs, can encourage and motivate scientists, but it is not the product of a scientists work. Facts have limitations and factual observations can be refined with time as those limitations are better understood and/or overcome.
This is why several physical laws or tried and true theories have several forms. The forms are often consistent, but as parameters change we use forms more simplified for the domain we're working in. And in many cases the relationships were independently validated in the different frames and we later learned it was all part of a single phenomena. It is a fundamental tenant of the scientific method that what we produce is a better understanding, not an immutable truth.
Roaringpea · 1 points · Posted at 18:35:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The world would be a better place if twitter deleted trumps account
Sir_Salty_Shart · 1 points · Posted at 18:35:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Esports are real sports. Look up the definition for sports. It applies to competitive games like dota, csgo, smash bros, etc.
Chronostasis · 1 points · Posted at 18:35:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Merriam Webster isn't the Alpha and Omega of the English language.
Also, we make up words all the time. That's precisely what language is. Stop throwing a tantrum everytime you hear a new word.
Pascalwb · 1 points · Posted at 18:35:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How internet works
elmiraguth · 1 points · Posted at 18:36:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Maxwell's equations.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:36:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I hear Chinese people dont understand National Park rules.
NostalgiaSC · 1 points · Posted at 18:36:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That socialism and capitalism can exist together. You don't need to go to one extreme or another.
PublicAccount1234 · 1 points · Posted at 18:36:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How electronics stuff works, even in the most general sense.
Sam_Snead_My_God · 1 points · Posted at 18:36:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
90% of people seem to think a score of 90% on Rotten Tomatoes means the movie is only 10% flawed. Like the movie was an exam or something.
Brewsterion · 1 points · Posted at 18:36:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That blaming an entire race of people for the actions of a few is not right.
lfreire · 1 points · Posted at 18:36:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That "organic" food doesn't mean "healthy" food. Also the "use" of " "
Meatballin_ · 1 points · Posted at 18:36:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That its a fucking great thing to be proven wrong and actually change your fucking mind.
5partacus70 · 1 points · Posted at 18:36:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Respect
OIebenknobi · 1 points · Posted at 18:36:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Outrage from the media and people on both political parties is not equal
A radical Liberal shoots multiple Senators in Washington DC, and it won't make the front page of /r/politics.
A radical Alt Right guy does something and it manifests every sub on Reddit.
Manipulation and Propaganda works.
darth_henning · 1 points · Posted at 18:36:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Stupidity is not an asset or something to be glorified.
iamabudi · 1 points · Posted at 18:36:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
People don't seem like to understand how it looks like without glasses
Saren2100 · 1 points · Posted at 18:36:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
According to anime: Who the hell do they think I am!?
MasinNancy · 1 points · Posted at 18:36:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No belief system is monolithic. From feminism to Islam to Fascism to American conservatism to anything else. These are collections of various people with widely varying ideas about the most important ideas withing their specific set of beliefs.
Take, for instance, the neo-Nazis as a faction of Trump supporters. Their support of Trump doesn't make everyone in his movement a racist and bigot, but it also can't be denied that the many ideas at the core of his movement have attracted and fostered the racist beliefs some of his supporters hold.
The basic point is that it is important to not make a monolith of any belief system just because a certain group within that belief system is more vocal or more prominent. Every group of shared ideas is as diverse as the people who comprise the group, and though that can make the world seem far too complex at times, it's a necessary complexity if we ever hope to truly understand our fellow human beings.
Jsnow2286 · 1 points · Posted at 18:36:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That this insurance stuff going on is affecting everyone
MemeLordCameron · 1 points · Posted at 18:37:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Motorcyclist should have extra room behind them when driving because if you rear end them, even if they are at a stop...... It won't be fun for either of you
boogersrus · 1 points · Posted at 18:37:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Negativity In, Negativity Out.
JDTapdat · 1 points · Posted at 18:37:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The difference between games over .500 and win-loss differential.
Tejansh · 1 points · Posted at 18:37:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Off side in football.
HousePotnis · 1 points · Posted at 18:37:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That faith is never a reliable method to come to any belief or conclusion
bo_dingles · 1 points · Posted at 18:47:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Isn't faith required by definition for belief? I mean, yeah a concluding should have a logical argument for how we got here, but belief is your position when evidence isn't there.
HousePotnis · 1 points · Posted at 18:56:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I would say that even beliefs can be formed with logical and evidence based arguments instead of relying on faith
TheCount913 · 1 points · Posted at 18:37:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Exercise and nutrition
holidayiceman · 1 points · Posted at 18:37:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When I greet you and say something like "How are You?" I don't want/need your life story and everything that is going wrong in it.
jackthecat53 · 1 points · Posted at 18:37:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Touching either side of a car battery WON'T kill you. I knew an auto parts guy who belived this.
evenandre98 · 1 points · Posted at 18:37:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The fact that wearing hijab is just as much a cultural thing as religious
GasOnFire · 1 points · Posted at 18:37:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That a government investing in its people is not socialism.
Socialism is an economy where the government controls the means of production. Capitalism is where the private sector controls the means of production. Countries like the US and Sweden are capitalist by definition; Sweden just chooses to invest in education over bombs, but their means of production are both controlled by the private sector (Volvo, ikea, h&m, Spotify, etc.)
If anything a government investing in the welfare of its people by offering education or healthcare is more capitalistic than anything else because it provides more opportunities for private-sector competition across all market domains, including the labor market.
Boinkermorn · 1 points · Posted at 18:37:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
5th grade economics and 1st grade biology
ramrockapump · 1 points · Posted at 18:37:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Compound interest
kapachow · 1 points · Posted at 18:37:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to make a girl cum
mshashiOman · 1 points · Posted at 18:37:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How a computer works
Mighty_mohawk · 1 points · Posted at 18:37:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Freedom of speech protects you from the government, not your peers
tea_coffee_guy · 1 points · Posted at 18:37:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Me :(
csgonutty · 1 points · Posted at 18:37:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
High interest pay day loans. The amount of people that see something like 3600% APR and believe that if you borrow $1 then you then you will owe $3600 after a single year. Tried explaining it to numerous people but some just can't understand that the dollar is 100% and that you dont just time your borrowed amount by the APR.
Music_animal · 1 points · Posted at 18:37:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Using a blinker.
carramrod2012 · 1 points · Posted at 18:37:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Your phone is watching you
Pella86 · 1 points · Posted at 18:38:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Relativity. Everything is relative to some kind of construct and concept.
Truth is just what we human agree to be the best possible explanation. Is a relative measure, there is no absolute truth.
Many -ism are also depicted as absolutes but in general is a gradient, a label of thousands of shades, like nazism has good sides also feminism has bad one.
Almost anything in life is not black or white but something deeper and with more shades than we usually think. Yet for simplicity we give labels that helps us understanding the complexity behind, yet those are simply labels
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:38:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"Freedom of Speech" just means you won't be arrested for your speech. It does not mean there are no consequences for your speech. If you are vocal about an opinion that lots of people think is crap, people have the freedom to boycott your business, stop watching your TV show, or otherwise voice their opinions to the contrary.
If the CEO of Chick Fil A wants to be outspoken about his feelings regarding gay marriage, the public may stop eating there. If JC Penny hires Ellen as a spokesperson, the Million Moms might make a stink about it on social media. If you go on Twitter and make noise about how all Muslims should be sent back to wherever, you will likely have consequences.
Tl;dr - "freedom of speech" doesn't mean you get to be a dick.
DangerZoneSLA · 1 points · Posted at 18:38:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Cash.
MrWhydoicare · 1 points · Posted at 18:38:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's my charger. If I want it back, my phone percentage doesn't matter.
TheManicMonocle · 1 points · Posted at 18:38:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Alot of people think that people become vampires by being bitten by a vampire, but most of the stories actually say you become a vampire by drinking a vampires blood.
Agent_Dutchess · 1 points · Posted at 18:38:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Right of way when driving.
fuckford · 1 points · Posted at 18:38:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not everything on the internet is true.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:38:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That you are responsible for your own actions and feelings.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:38:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
ratpoison987 · 2 points · Posted at 18:47:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's because whoever says that, said it wrong.
I couldn't care less
Is what should be said.
thirdoptics · 1 points · Posted at 18:38:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Treat everyone else like it's you living another life
yourmomsman1 · 1 points · Posted at 18:38:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Some days you're the bird, other days you're the statue.
quinnmct · 1 points · Posted at 18:38:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That not all Trump supporters are Nazis
lutello · 2 points · Posted at 18:42:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm sure some of them are good people.
MonsterRider80 · 1 points · Posted at 18:38:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I could care less.
UniqueUsername812 · 1 points · Posted at 18:38:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I would say courteous and safe operation of a motor vehicle, but OP said 90% not 99%
sammalexx · 1 points · Posted at 18:38:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Insult artists all you want but your stupid house would be bare and your life colorless and cards/shirts/GAMES/tv/movies/clothes would be dull and shitty. You ever see that pic of video game programmers trying to draw Kirby? Yea, that would be life.
Fuck off if all you have time to do is insult people's jobs and intelligence.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:39:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
the fact that other drivers are human beings and just because they're in a car doesn't mean you can shit all over them
DONT_PM_ME_UR_BOLLOX · 1 points · Posted at 18:39:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Breakfast is NOT the 'most important meal of the day'.
K0stroun · 1 points · Posted at 18:39:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Monty Hall problem.
Kyle5329 · 1 points · Posted at 18:39:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The "A" in "AR-15" does not stand for assault. It stands for Armalite which was the company that designed the AR platform.
Brun420 · 1 points · Posted at 18:39:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Statistics, luckily the other 20% of us are here to help.
burzummor · 1 points · Posted at 18:39:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Turn signals.
demzoe · 1 points · Posted at 18:39:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That more than 95% of the victims of ISIS attacks are Muslim.
Taybae_xo · 1 points · Posted at 18:39:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When you ride on an escalator.. especially the ones at airports don't stand in the middle. We're rushing here!!!!!!
Medivh158 · 1 points · Posted at 18:39:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
'Our' is not pronounced 'are'...
WhatTheLag · 1 points · Posted at 18:40:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That if your in the wrong lane in traffic fucking deal with it cause you will be able to fix it sooner or later
smokerising · 1 points · Posted at 18:40:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That economics is about efficiency, and the points at which things are most efficient. Lets use taxes for instance. People argue about raising or lowering. One side says we need to lower taxes on the rich so they can get more money and invest it in things, and the other side says the rich don't give their fair share. Well in economics you would try to find the most efficient level at which you would have investment while still being able to use government funds to provide opportunity to people. And further more its not about weather we should use the government to give equal opportunity for people to get ahead, we know that higher levels of opportunity benefit our economy by increasing productivity exponentially. The question is what is the level we should invest in providing opportunity to maximize the money multiplier of the invested money.
yourbrotherrex · 1 points · Posted at 18:40:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to correctly (and lawfully) turn around in a median while driving.
95% of drivers use the wrong side, and not only is it unlawful, it also causes thousands and thousands of unnecessary deaths every single year.
(Other drivers can't see oncoming traffic when you do that shit, yo.)
chrbir1 · 1 points · Posted at 18:40:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Statistics
vickinorman1982 · 1 points · Posted at 18:40:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That a fractured bone and a broken bone are the same thing.
fiordland_freak · 1 points · Posted at 18:40:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Life
FrumpMastaFlash · 1 points · Posted at 18:40:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to back up and transfer their phone contacts
Teuthex · 1 points · Posted at 18:40:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It isn't okay to lie about people you don't like.
freetheboner2018 · 1 points · Posted at 18:40:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Statistics
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:40:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That words matter.
What you say and what you write is important. That is what fuels our laws, contracts, company policies, and interpersonal interactions. You should never assume that people know what you mean. Be clear.
SprigganTwelve · 1 points · Posted at 18:40:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That Pharah's name is pronounced Far-Uh not Fair-Uh
Velcros · 1 points · Posted at 18:40:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Zipper Merge!
lutello · 1 points · Posted at 18:40:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
literally
WSUBuckeye65 · 1 points · Posted at 18:40:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to work gas/petrol pumps.
unclefucher420 · 1 points · Posted at 18:40:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
the use of blinkers...(I live in Memphis and I fell like the only one who uses it.)
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:40:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
According to my schools engineering drop out rate, how difficult it is going to university for engineering.
Jaerba · 1 points · Posted at 18:41:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That consumer products fulfill needs outside of their tech specs.
Beats headphones fill important customers' needs even with mediocre fidelity.
Just about everyone cares about vanity/looking good for others in some part of their life.
gubbear · 1 points · Posted at 18:41:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Basic economics...
Looking at most of Reddit, specifically Trump or Bernie supporters (especially Trump supporters).
The basic STEM bros are the worst. Bruh you get fluid dynamics, fantastic, doesn't mean your opinion on the role of interest rate management and FED policy is valid.
addie80 · 1 points · Posted at 18:41:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That hatred cannot be defeated by hatred...where's the love everyone?
IUvipss21 · 1 points · Posted at 18:41:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
=/= != !=
Connorfromsp2 · 1 points · Posted at 18:41:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That this question is posted basically everyday and is not at all original
Hexomin · 1 points · Posted at 18:41:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Placebos. People think of the placebo effect as some incredible mind-over-matter ability of the body to heal itself based solely on the expectation of improvement. In reality, placebos have essentially no legitimate use outside of clinical trials, and the placebo effect really should be called the placebo effects.
Placebo effects are anything in a study other than the active intervention being studied. Regression to the mean, the natural course of the disease, biased reporting, subjective improvement, etc. The point of modern clinical trials is to compare the active intervention to a control group. Both groups have comparable placebo effects, which are subtracted out.
Placebo interventions do not alter underlying physiological processes. They may improve subjective symptoms, though even this is questionable. All we can really say is that the influence how patients describe their symptoms. It's possible that there is no change in how they actually feel, but they think they should feel better and thus unconsciously are biased in how they report it.
For example, if you give patients having an asthma exacerbation a placebo inhaler, many will report feeling some degree of relief. They may or may not actually feel relief, it's hard to say. However, lung function, and thus important outcomes like mortality, will be unchanged.
TL;DR Outside of clinical trials, placebos have essentially no role. People vastly overestimate what they can do.
InvictusMens · 1 points · Posted at 18:41:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The affordable healthcare act. I've heard people explain how the affordable healthcare act was better than Obama care back when they were literally the exact same thing.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:41:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm not locked in here with you, you're locked in here with me.
SustainEA · 1 points · Posted at 18:42:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That the meat, dairy, and egg industries are a Holocaust and killing us.
ChubsTheBear · 1 points · Posted at 18:42:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The freedom of speech guaranteed by the US constitution does not a) protect you indefinitely from retaliation by private citizens and businesses b) extend past the US borders.
dvshnk2 · 1 points · Posted at 18:42:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How percentages work...
marleylovestrees · 1 points · Posted at 18:42:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I just work registers. I don't make the prices, I don't control how much stock we have. I don't own this place. Talk to the owners about your pointless problems
Greatwhitesharkman · 1 points · Posted at 18:42:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Bitcoin
JustBTDubs · 1 points · Posted at 18:42:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That this is a repost.
NiceFormBro · 1 points · Posted at 18:42:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Most of us can see through your bullshit, we just don't care till it directly affects us.
B3nd3tta · 1 points · Posted at 18:42:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Considering the weekends events;
That there's a difference of how the public perceives it when a nazi commits a crime compared to how the public perceives it when a muslim terrorist commits a terror crime "When a muslim does something it's only 1 guy, when a nazi does something, it's every nazi"
newb_shaver · 1 points · Posted at 18:45:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You do realize that Nazi are just a horrible group of people in general and Muslim is just a religion right? I think you need to be re-educated. They can't really be compared.
B3nd3tta · 1 points · Posted at 18:52:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's exactly what i'm saying, but alt rights and nazis seem not to understand it. Which is why i put quotation marks around the last sentence
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:42:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Merging lanes on freeways. People will be driving 30 miles an hour on a freeway metered for 60. There's no reason for this either; no accidents, nothing. People just suck at driving on freeways.
No one respects a doormat.
Not everyone needs to be your friend.
If you can't even afford the price of a new puppy, you can't afford to own a pet. Buy some fucking pet insurance too. Fifi only needs to get into your chocolate stash once to cost more than a wrecked car.
You can't learn a language by staring at books all day. Or by watching Chinese cartoons.
College takes actual work if you want an actual degree.
High school will often actually do more harm than good in prepping you for college if it allows you to learn how to game the system, getting the highest grades for the least effort.
The benefit to taking high school seriously is tens and hundreds of thousands of dollars saved both in terms of taking less college and in terms of hitting the labor force earlier.
Community colleges in college towns are often offering identical classes taught by the same junior professors you'd see at the college for about half the price.
There is always someone better. You might be Valedictorian of your high school but you shouldn't be surprised to discover that's average, at best, at MIT.
If you truly want to do it, you should be putting your all into it. Natural talent ain't gonna save you from the dude who puts in the hours. You're not entitled to anything.
If your response to being told that you're being censorious is to say it can't be censorship because you're not a state actor, it just tells them you wish you were. Especially if you continue to ignore their arguments and points.
People tend to act out their desires on those around them. Sometimes they're hitting on a girl they want to take to the booty bunker, sometimes they're quiet and withdrawn because they really do just want to be left alone.
Getting political extremists fired from their jobs isn't helping anyone and will most likely only serve to further radicalize them.
Ishaan2705 · 1 points · Posted at 18:42:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A joke
Draucus · 1 points · Posted at 18:42:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to use ratchet straps properly.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:43:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That there is no point to worry, life will kick you in the nuts no matter what and worry only makes it hurt more.
gonefishin999 · 1 points · Posted at 18:43:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Legal and ethical are two different things.
milk_mama · 1 points · Posted at 18:43:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The hymen has nothing to do with virginity in women.
friend_jp · 1 points · Posted at 18:43:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The 'right of way' is not the right to be inconsiderate, IMO anyways.
Deloox · 1 points · Posted at 18:43:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The other 10%
1one1one · 1 points · Posted at 18:43:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Bitcoin
Bizarrmenian · 1 points · Posted at 18:43:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Politics.
b1223d · 1 points · Posted at 18:43:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
cryptocurrency like bitcoin
Ricberr · 1 points · Posted at 18:43:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The other 10%
Jmersh · 1 points · Posted at 18:43:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you don't want to repeat yourself, address me first to get my attention then ask or say what you needed.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:43:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
this is a really weird topic to have on reddit
because when you open up the the thread, you read the most upvoted stuff
100% of people agree that 90% of people don't understand it
BloodyBadgerBlender · 1 points · Posted at 18:43:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Compound interest.
steelpeat · 1 points · Posted at 18:43:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The belief that more resources for one group (e.g., immigrants) means less for others (e.g., non-immigrants).
AdobeShinobi · 1 points · Posted at 18:44:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Talking badly about [ethnicity] and justifying yourself by saying you have [ethnicity] friends.
Reality check; you're still racist.
avd121 · 0 points · Posted at 18:47:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Who isn't racist? How can one attain this not a racist certificate?
AdobeShinobi · 2 points · Posted at 18:49:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
We have to be kind to each other! :)
MaritimerNB · 1 points · Posted at 18:44:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The phases of the moon.
honeyfixit · 1 points · Posted at 18:44:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just because it's on the Internet doesn't mean it's true
CaptainObvious_1 · 1 points · Posted at 18:44:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That eating meat is terrible for the environment and is unsustainable.
TitaniumDragon · 1 points · Posted at 18:44:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The Citizens United US Supreme Court decision.
The court case was about the US government banning distribution of a video critical of a candidate.
The ruling was not that money = speech, it was that money spent on speech was protected the same way that speech was. Otherwise, the government could censor books and movies and websites by saying "oh, you cannot spend money on them," which would make a farce out of freedom of the press.
This was actually a followup to a 1970s court decision which decided the same thing for private individuals; the fact that it was applied to groups of individuals by the Citizens United decision is actually not very surprising.
It should be noted that the ACLU supported Citizens United in the case and agreed with the US Supreme Court's decision.
junkiespanner · 1 points · Posted at 18:44:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Roundabouts, indicators
450LbsGorilla · 1 points · Posted at 18:44:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The left lane is the passing lane.
The left lane is the passing lane.
THE LEFT LANE IS THE PASSING LANE
HisFaithRestored · 1 points · Posted at 18:50:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But you always pass on the right? Unless we're in different parts of the world or maybe even country (California here)
450LbsGorilla · 2 points · Posted at 18:55:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Might as well be a different planet. There's a reason you guys have 7 lanes and nothing moves :P
Squirelle · 1 points · Posted at 18:44:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Brighten their screen on their phone. I work at a place with coupons and I swear most people don't know how.
They like to tell me, "my phone doesn't brighten/that's as bright as it goes."
😑
atomic_redneck · 1 points · Posted at 18:44:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Nobody is the villain in their own internal narrative.
jamieft · 1 points · Posted at 18:44:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Quantum mechanics
Danizdaman0506 · 1 points · Posted at 18:45:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That road rage is dangerous
falcoperegrinus82 · 1 points · Posted at 18:45:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Basic ecology and environmental awareness. Most people can't name 10 species of anything that lives right in their own backyard.
Cyb3rDuck · 1 points · Posted at 18:45:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
when ordering at Starbucks, us baristas need to know what size you would like for the first drink before you start saying what you would like for the second drink.
Sitodaboss · 1 points · Posted at 18:45:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
THERE IS A CAR IN FRONT OF ME! I CAN'T GO ANY FASTER!
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:45:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sugar is bad for you.
FancyPants1983 · 1 points · Posted at 18:45:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A pony is not a baby horse. A baby horse or pony is called a foal. A male foal is a colt, a female is a filly. An altered (neutered) male horse is a gelding, unaltered is a stallion. A female is a mare either way as altering is rarely done.
TheBrokenJoker · 1 points · Posted at 18:45:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Being rude/aggressive with somebody rarely gets you're situation resolved more quickly. Most the time the result is the same as if you'd been polite but the person now thinks your an ass hole too!
worstcococlock · 1 points · Posted at 18:45:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That 90% of the stuff in here is stuff that a majority understands but is annoyed at the minority that doesn't understands it.
dhoods · 1 points · Posted at 18:45:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Islam
ocioico · 1 points · Posted at 18:45:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When a weather report says there's a 20% chance of rain. It means that 20% of the land surveyed will definitely have rain.
Curtixman · 1 points · Posted at 18:45:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to merge; It is not the responsibility of people on the highway to merge you into traffic by matching whatever speed you feel like entering the far right lane. It is your responsibility to match the speed of cars in the lane you're entering.
FortunatoFTW2 · 1 points · Posted at 18:45:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That the law isn't about what's right or wrong.
MMTKK · 1 points · Posted at 18:45:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Online advertising
joshkmartinez · 1 points · Posted at 18:46:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Computers
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:46:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Turn signals.
Rottenslam · 1 points · Posted at 18:46:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That we are all cousins, and we are all products of inbreeding. It's math.
FerretWithASpork · 1 points · Posted at 18:46:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Intellectual Property laws.
Tmgithens · 1 points · Posted at 18:46:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Women
inserthumorhere323 · 1 points · Posted at 18:46:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Auto Insurance
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:46:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That shouting at a deaf person won't make him/her hear you any better.
the_planes_walker · 1 points · Posted at 18:46:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Meetings break up the work day, causing everyone attending to be much less productive. A group e-mail will suffice for almost every question that needs answering.
pr0t0cl0wn · 1 points · Posted at 18:46:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The infield fly rule
Kyser_ · 1 points · Posted at 18:46:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You can click Thresh's Lantern to dash to him
GremlinBabies · 1 points · Posted at 18:46:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What men are
Xalaphane · 1 points · Posted at 18:46:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Everyone will be mad if your late for work but no body ever get's mad at the person who brought tacos.
DipKing1 · 1 points · Posted at 18:46:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Common sense
mike2k24 · 1 points · Posted at 18:47:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just because I work at a fast food restaurant does not mean I can give you free food..
MotoLGD · 1 points · Posted at 18:47:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just because you don't agree with what I want to do in the future, doesn't mean you're right.
"You're doing Art? You're an idiot. Why don't you just do something better?" That's what my Mum said after I had excitedly told her I wanted to do Art in the future.
SegmentedMoss · 1 points · Posted at 18:47:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That just because something was the first, does not mean it's the "best."
Example:
Black Sabbath is not the best metal band of all time.
Citizen Kane is not the best movie of all time.
Poe is not the best horror author of all time.
You can pioneer something, and that definitely has value. But if the first person to ever play a certain kind of music is really the best there ever was, and no band that came after can possibly surpass that, that form of art is probably pretty shitty, and allows for no room for innovation and expansion
Just one man's opinion.
heniferlopez · 1 points · Posted at 18:47:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That bitcoin will revolutionize finance just the same way as email did to the postal service. By acquiring just one bitcoin you could secure some serious future wealth.
Superkroot · 1 points · Posted at 18:47:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That 'observing' a quantum level experiment, and the changes it causes, has nothing to do with consciousness.
dcrawford33 · 1 points · Posted at 18:47:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Tipping. Enough said.
Akolyte01 · 1 points · Posted at 18:47:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"ad hominem" is not a synonym for insult. It is an attack on the person instead of their argument. "You are wrong because you are a dumbass" is an ad hominem attack and a logical fallacy. "You are wrong because x. You are also a dumbass" Is rude but not an ad hominem.
anxious_anatomist · 1 points · Posted at 18:47:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How their own goddamned bodies work.
gageireland · 1 points · Posted at 18:47:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Life
msatretwhaart · 1 points · Posted at 18:47:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
compounding interest, or other basic financial concepts.
Zealot360 · 1 points · Posted at 18:47:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Tax brackets. I've given up trying to explain it to coworkers whenever tax season is looming or taxes are otherwise discussed. People are fucking stupid.
klorekatt · 1 points · Posted at 18:47:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That if one person think something is fine doesn't mean that the ten other think its fine
ivallena · 1 points · Posted at 18:47:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
ignorance vs apathy
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:48:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Reacting and commenting on the Facebook comment of a stupid person only means that more people are going to have to see it.
TheKakattack · 1 points · Posted at 18:48:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That getting in a head on collision at 60mph is not like hitting a brick wall at 120 and is actually like hitting a brick wall at 60.
PrincessSnowy_ · 1 points · Posted at 18:48:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you put a reference to pop culture in your comment you are not being clever or funny you are just wasting space. Yes I know someone is going to reply to this with a somehow relevant Rick and Morty quote. (XRA was way better u dolts)
WyssNorven · 1 points · Posted at 18:48:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The passing lane is for passing.
somanyfuckingtacos · 1 points · Posted at 18:48:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
USE YOUR EFFING BLINKERS!
kap_fallback · 1 points · Posted at 18:48:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Bitcoin.
wondersnickers · 1 points · Posted at 18:48:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That things always change and we humas should adapt. Industrialized Meat consumption, plastic etc. are examples that it is over due we collectively change our behavior.
That we should always constructively question the status quo.
That helping others also results for a better world for you, as well as those who come after us.
That it's not always good for you to choose to most comfortable way. Is good to sometimes be hungry, or cold and be challenged.
Edit: one more: That putting alot of effort into changing things with a wholistic approach is actually cheaper as well as more efficient on a long term than going for quick short term solutions.
Nocebola · 1 points · Posted at 18:48:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You can be both agnostic and an atheist/theist.
Agnosticism is a answer to an epistemological question.
Atheism/theism is a answer to a theological one.
Zogamizer · 1 points · Posted at 18:48:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That 90% of people understand much more than you think they do.
Chanceifer0666 · 1 points · Posted at 18:48:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That dr. Dow want actually pulled off the plane by united...
sliverinwithyou · 1 points · Posted at 18:49:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"I think" does not mean "I know". I've had countless arguments with people because I said I think it's this, then later they say I thought you said this blah blah blah when I specifically said "I'm not sure but I think this". Annoys the hell out of me.
SimplebutSublime · 1 points · Posted at 18:49:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"Common" sense
Periclydes · 1 points · Posted at 18:49:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
People believe that knights and other armored individuals during the middle ages fought like jedi. That battles were a bunch of people having their own personal duel next to each other. That you could cut through plate, gambeson, and mail like butter. That horses didn't wear armor, and that archers would use their bows as melee weapons.
kai272727 · 1 points · Posted at 18:49:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How illogical religion is
MaddenMan73 · 1 points · Posted at 18:49:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That "Only the Sith deal in absolutes."
free_is_free76 · 1 points · Posted at 18:51:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Are you absolutely sure about that?
Scripter17 · 1 points · Posted at 19:08:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well, I guess that's why they can't protect an empire for shit, they don't even understand relativity!
wubalubalubdub · 1 points · Posted at 18:49:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Statistics
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:49:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You have to spend money to make money. You can't skimp to save.
Quick1711 · 1 points · Posted at 18:49:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Radicalism
JMJimmy · 1 points · Posted at 18:49:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to read an ISO document (or law) where specific terms are defined which do not correspond to the "common" meaning.
If you don't understand normative vs informative, scope of defined terms, and many of the other rather important details of ISO directives (https://www.iso.org/directives-and-policies.html) you shouldn't be trying to read (or write) ISO documents.
74malvern · 1 points · Posted at 18:50:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That walking into a shop and immediately stopping in the doorway isn't how you're meant to do it.
KodiakRS · 1 points · Posted at 18:50:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Airliners don't fly themselves. In 2016 there were 271 "critical" equipment failures on airliners in the United States alone. Engine failures, engine explosions, electrical shorts, hydraulic leaks, cabin depressurizations, FMS failures, and loss of communication radios are just a few examples. The only reason none of them were major news is because in each and every case the pilots were able to safely land the airplanes without fatalities.
ZenmasterRob · 1 points · Posted at 18:50:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That 90% of what you're upvoting is things that 90% DO understand and only 10% don't understand.
Things that 90% of people don't understand won't get upvoted because voters don't understand them.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:50:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to merge onto an interstate.
TheRaith · 1 points · Posted at 18:50:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
More often than not winning an argument will not get your point of view respected nor will others enact what you wanted of them. The most effective way to get people to do things if for them to come up with the idea themselves. Ask the right questions to lead people towards the way you want people to do things and they'll be more inclined to do it the way you led them to. It's a weird concept, but the basic premise is that you're allowing their brain to believe it came up with the solution itself, and thus it is a good way to do things.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:50:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Even if you "win" an argument, you're not going to change that person's views or way of life.
PugeHeniss · 1 points · Posted at 18:50:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
taxes
OnlyinRealLif · 1 points · Posted at 18:50:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Why the Earth has seasons
Ryslin · 1 points · Posted at 18:50:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
90% of my fellow Americans: That the majority of the developed world is on universal health care, and it's working phenomenally for them.
that_snarky_one · 1 points · Posted at 18:50:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
'Could care less' and 'couldn't care less' are two entirely different things
Oktavius82 · 1 points · Posted at 18:50:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to use car blinkers.
Seadurism_ · 1 points · Posted at 18:51:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm offended that you believe something
4rch1t3ct · 1 points · Posted at 18:51:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
quantum physics
IrishCarbonite · 1 points · Posted at 18:51:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Mistakes happen. We're only human, we can't be perfect every moment or at every task.
meerian · 1 points · Posted at 18:51:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Apparently overdraft fee's
Frostwend · 1 points · Posted at 18:51:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That one does not simply pause an online game
jmoscotte · 1 points · Posted at 18:51:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to use a turn signal
idkanametomake · 1 points · Posted at 18:51:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The left lane is for passing, not cruising 5mph under the speed limit.
Gripey · 1 points · Posted at 18:51:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Bengali. Not sure if it's exact, but only about 10% speak that.
Dupragon · 1 points · Posted at 18:51:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Technology in general, try explaining how your phone works to a friend, you'll realize how little you truly know
close_19 · 1 points · Posted at 18:51:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That I am the one who knocks
molleeewrites · 1 points · Posted at 18:51:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The real definition of "begs the question."
enrique_guevara · 1 points · Posted at 18:52:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What 90% means
bostonovak · 1 points · Posted at 18:52:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to use a traffic circle/ rotary/ roundabout
TakuanThePickleMonk · 1 points · Posted at 18:52:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Healthy relationships, also how to poach a goddamn egg properly
Mundanes · 1 points · Posted at 18:52:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That the world would be much nicer if we were charming. If we didn't burp or fart or do anything rude or ugly in the presence of others, and spoke in a charming manner, the world would be a much nicer place to be.
Or we could just carry on being animals.
Scripter17 · 1 points · Posted at 19:04:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well, humans are animals, mammals to be more specific.
Mundanes · 1 points · Posted at 19:47:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Obviously, but given that we have surpassed basic human instinct and have developed art and philosophy over countless generations, you'd think we'd be more civilised that we tend to be.
Chronos96 · 1 points · Posted at 18:52:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Distinctions seem to be a big one.
OddballNinja · 1 points · Posted at 18:52:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Using the indicator while driving.
SpaceCrom · 1 points · Posted at 18:52:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"It's everyone's responsibility" is the same as it being no one's responsibility. Communal responsibility is just bad management. It just gives everyone the excuse that someone else will do it. No matter how small, make sure someone is acceptable for everything. Even the toilet paper.
Defender-1 · 1 points · Posted at 18:52:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
something about turn signals.
because that repeated comment seems to get on the top 10 comment karma every damn time this is asked.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:52:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Calculus. I'm just surprised by the number of people who've taken calculus but yet don't understand something like how acceleration and speed relate in terms of calculus.
awvoor · 1 points · Posted at 18:52:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Pushing the elevator button once is enough!
B789 · 1 points · Posted at 18:52:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Progressive tax rates.
If the cutoff line for the new bracket is at X, you are not taxed more just by simply surpassing the threshold. Only the income ABOVE X is taxed at the higher rate. The income UNDER X is taxed at the previous lower percentage.
Example: If a person makes $52,000 then $57,000 and uses the below example tax bracket, my tax would be as calculated:
If I earn $52,000, tax is:
$15,000 x 0% = $0
$20,000 x 10% = $2,000
$17,000 x 15% = $2,550
Total salary = $52,000
Total tax = $4,550
Effective tax (total tax / total salary) = 8.75%
If I earn $57,000, tax is:
$15,000 x 0% = $0
$20,000 x 10% = $2,000
$20,000 x 15% = $3,000
$2,000 X 20% = $400
Total salary = $57,000
Total tax = $5,400
Effective tax (total tax / total salary) = 9.47%
Even though the increase in example income put the person into a 5% higher tax bracket, the total effective tax rate only increased 0.72% as a result of the taxes paid on only the new income.
gjones9038 · 1 points · Posted at 18:52:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Economics.
bluedatsun72 · 1 points · Posted at 18:52:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Economics. Even a very basic understanding would do wonders for our society.
Caiejay · 1 points · Posted at 18:52:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to use their god damn turn signal
ArshamFarbod · 1 points · Posted at 18:53:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That this whole democracy aka capitalism is there so can live like kings or queens at a cost. Which is working 80%of your life or taking advantage of you fellow men and women or in other words stealing. If your life is unfulfilling maybe you should sacrifice something to balance shit out in your life and find equilibrium.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:53:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When you have 8 billion people on earth, there are going to be assholes. That means Muslim extrimists, white supremacists, etc. We need to stop giving them attention, which will lessen their power.
SpecialJ11 · 1 points · Posted at 18:53:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What following distance in a car is. My parents say people tailgate you to get you to go faster, but then I'll catch my dad doing it unintentionally and I'm convinced people are mostly too dumb or not paying enough attention for proper following distance. There's no way all the cars I see tailgate each other do it out of spite.
marcyhra · 1 points · Posted at 18:53:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Common sense
htmwc · 1 points · Posted at 18:53:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Almost everything if I'm honest. We're all stupid in reality, just most of us know one particular thing well enough not to be stupid in that field.
devraj7 · 1 points · Posted at 18:53:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When donating to charity, the fact that you can write it off doesn't necessarily mean that you will pay that much less taxes. It might even mean you're not going to save any taxes.
Depending on where you live, that deduction is actually taken off your declared income, and if this doesn't make you go down one bracket, you will pay exactly the same amount of taxes.
Bafau4246 · 1 points · Posted at 18:53:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm actually right
BennyPendentes · 1 points · Posted at 18:53:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That points of view are inherently subjective, and our guesses about what other people are thinking or feeling are unavoidably colored by our own thoughts and feelings.
That using the same data point that inspired a belief to 'prove' the validity of that belief is an inherently flawed process. A test that cannot fail is not a test.
pyromps · 1 points · Posted at 18:53:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You only need to ask me to do something once. Repeating it does NOT mean I'll get it done faster
Fraxxxi · 1 points · Posted at 18:53:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That if you play stupid games, you may often win stupid prizes.
Cygnus4500 · 1 points · Posted at 18:53:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Bitcoin.
vampifairy · 1 points · Posted at 18:53:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Breasts are not sex organs. Seriously I'm so sick of explaining this to people 😒
Panserbjorne_OD · 1 points · Posted at 18:53:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
As an auto insurance adjuster I've got so many people that argue with me over the stupidest things.
I've got people who aren't licensed try to argue auto negligence with me.
"Car a was driving slow in the left lane, car b was behind them and changed lanes and was in accident with car c. Car A is clearly at fault for this accident because of move over laws!"
No. There is no situation -ever- where that is true. Car B still committed the unsafe lane change and failed to have a proper lookout out. They still CHOSE to change lanes.
"Well the police said xyz about liability"
Cool. They aren't adjusters. They also probably didn't witness the accident either.
When they argue with me about liability. Like parking lots. "They should of seen me backing out! I was halfway out! It's their fault!"
No. You have the greater duty when backing. Especially if you didn't even see the other vehicle until impact.
When they try to say "they were speeding, they ran the light, etc" but then didn't see them till impact. If you didn't see them till impact you can't say any of that.
Demanding to speak with a manager. They are an adjuster just like me. 99/100 the answer won't change speaking to a manager. Pretty much EVERYTHING I do is regulated by your contract which is regulated by the Department of Insurance. I'm sorry you drive a suburban but only have economy rental, no I won't put you in a large SUV.
/endrant
piltonpfizerwallace · 1 points · Posted at 18:54:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Rational risk analysis.
hellslave · 1 points · Posted at 18:54:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The difference between "your" and "you're."
chinchilaman · 1 points · Posted at 18:54:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Adulting.
pixiedust93 · 1 points · Posted at 18:54:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Opinions and facts are not the same thing. You can choose to accept a fact or not to. Your opinion that dinosaurs never existed does not change all the facts pointing to their existence.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:54:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to indicate whilst driving
nerdygal123 · 1 points · Posted at 18:54:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
lesbians don't want/need a man. I'm talking to you, reddit.
Allesanderealsnormal · 1 points · Posted at 18:54:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Everybody is unique, but also everyone is so similar to someone it hurts. There is no trait that is solely to you.
Palavras · 1 points · Posted at 18:54:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you think of any group of people as "sub-human" or "less than" you, you are wrong. It doesn't matter what political, religious, or other side you are on. You are wrong, and history has proven time and time again that we are all just humans. We are all equally important, even when our views and lifestyles are drastically different.
Blacks, gays, hill-billies, fat people, muslims and even racists. You may not like who these people are and you may not like their opinions, but they are all humans and should be treated as such. We can discuss and argue our opinions and lifestyles, but once you start seeing a group as sub-human, that's how radical ideology and deepening political divides take root.
fountain-of-doubt · 1 points · Posted at 18:54:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Turn signals.
kwirky88 · 1 points · Posted at 18:54:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That 90% of our actions are habitual. Master your own psychology instead of focusing on that which is out of your control. Lead by example and people will be more likely to follow compared to bitching, moaning, and yelling.
Brainfreezdnb · 1 points · Posted at 18:54:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Women orgasm
DoctorJuicebox · 1 points · Posted at 18:54:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Original Posting
Average_Giant · 1 points · Posted at 18:55:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Most Americans aren't these racist lunatics you see on the TV. Most of us just want to get through the work week and see our kids on the weekend.
mitchanium · 1 points · Posted at 18:55:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The bernoulli effect.
xecha99 · 1 points · Posted at 18:55:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That it's impossible for everyone in your heritage, culture, etc. to have come from a royal lineage or wealthy background.
feraxil · 1 points · Posted at 18:55:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Pepe
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:55:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Someone else's feelings.
MusicPi · 1 points · Posted at 18:55:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Quantum Physics
SeeSickCrocodile · 1 points · Posted at 18:55:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How ads pay for the internet.
Goodgardo · 1 points · Posted at 18:55:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Percentages
Acrimony01 · 1 points · Posted at 18:55:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When you drive unsafely, you are doing something that will often result in the violent death of you or others.
Driving is serious business. Be fucking careful.
joshit · 1 points · Posted at 18:55:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In England? Brexit
pAnDa_sHuRiKeN · 1 points · Posted at 18:55:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Autism.
MR_CHNYD · 1 points · Posted at 18:55:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
International and domestic politics.
zinzeerio · 1 points · Posted at 18:56:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Television and film resolutions and aspect ratios. 4:3, NTSC, PAL, 16:9, 720p, 1080p, 4K, Ultra HD, HDR10, Dolby Vision etc. Most people do not have a clue about what any of this stuff means!! Perhaps 99%
Why_are_you_so_dumb_ · 1 points · Posted at 18:56:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Taxes.
Or
And my favorite one that one of my employees told me recently
"No, dude. Look at a pay stub. You made $8k in 2 weeks and they held $2,700 out in taxes. They took $5k from you every month. That's $60k, dude. I keep you at 1099, you go to a CPA and get an LLC formed. You can lease your vehicle to you LLC and write off basically anything you spend money on. Just keep receipts. You'll end up paying in $10-$15k if you do it right."
The joys of the oilfield. There are some brilliant people, but goddamn, there are some illiterate mouth breathers.
LividMartian · 1 points · Posted at 18:56:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Rotten Tomatoes movie rating system. Look at the average rating for the film's score. Look at the tomatometer for the film's popularity and ratio of good reviews to bad. Stop bashing on a useful website!
BaronSamedys · 1 points · Posted at 18:56:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Voting
Nerdn1 · 1 points · Posted at 18:56:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Freedom of speech doesn't protect you from criticism. It also doesn't protect you from consequences as it only protects you from the government, not private businesses (with some exceptions for anti-discrimination civil rights protections).
nybx4life · 1 points · Posted at 18:59:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Considering recent news, that seems to be true.
HarryMashed · 1 points · Posted at 18:56:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That you cannot 'give 110%'
is_that_a_blue_penis · 1 points · Posted at 18:56:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to not piss on the floor in the men's restroom.
DisplacedLeprechaun · 1 points · Posted at 18:56:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That law does not determine morality.
Fuzati · 1 points · Posted at 18:57:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You don't have to pick one extreme or the other. There is such a thing as a middle ground.
deadassunicorns · 1 points · Posted at 18:57:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just because a person is family doesn't mean you have to love them.
afas460x · 1 points · Posted at 18:57:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Inverting the polarity has nothing to do with phase
Neat_On_The_Rocks · 1 points · Posted at 18:57:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The actual wage gap stats. I dont understand them at all.
Mournclawed · 1 points · Posted at 19:01:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The people at the top of the margin are the ones that issue raises for everyone below them. At a certain point they stopped giving substantial raises to the lower people and filling their own pockets with much later raises. Rinse repeat for a couple decades and you now have the American economic system. See pretty simple right?
pika_pi_bitches · 1 points · Posted at 18:57:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The point of turn signals. DC area drivers I'm looking at you.
Acrimony01 · 1 points · Posted at 18:58:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Liquidity is what buries most business ventures.
You need more cash then you think. ALWAYS.
inputmethod · 1 points · Posted at 18:58:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Schrodingers cat. The mf cat isn't in a quantum superposition. That's the whole fucking point of the thought experiment
billyhorton · 1 points · Posted at 18:58:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
DC is not a state. So when you read articles and see DC ranked first or last it's because it's more like a city.
Cahnis · 1 points · Posted at 18:58:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Libraries needs to throw some books out. Guys... there is no need to freak out everytime we decided to recycle one of our 19 copies of the windows 95 manual that no one has borrowed since 1998.
Oveleoj · 1 points · Posted at 18:58:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
90% of Americans don't know what the British Currency is
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:58:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to read the signs provided to direct you towards whatever it is you're trying to accomplish.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:58:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Reality is virtual. A virtual reality means that reality is based on information. An information based reality means that our reality is not physical or objective, albeit appearing that way to an observer at our level. This is demonstrated by the famous double slit experiment. Basically, you aren't "in" a universe at all, you are consciousness experiencing a data stream of information. If you've been living for 20+ years like most of us thinking you are a physical body in a physical, elemental universe that is out there regardless of whether any conscious being is observing it, then these ideas will be hard to grasp. Hell, they will be hard to grasp even a year thinking about them.
Say you're sitting in an office right now with a wall behind you. In reality there is no physical wall behind you right now because you are not looking at it, so it is not being rendered. What IS there is a probability distribution of things that could be there. When you turn your head and make a 'measurement' with your eyes, you collapse that probability distribution and there is likely to still be a wall there because consistency in a VR is vital in creating a productive learning lab for consciousness evolution.
TL;DR: 90%+ of people don't seem to understand the nature of the reality that they are in. More like 99%.
JJGeneral1 · 1 points · Posted at 18:58:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Life.
W1TH1N · 1 points · Posted at 18:58:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The word pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanoconiosis
im_from_detroit · 1 points · Posted at 18:58:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How you perceive a problem, can itself, be a problem.
vkrum007 · 1 points · Posted at 18:58:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You can't pause an online game mom!
andowen1990 · 1 points · Posted at 18:59:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Difficult questions don't have simple answers
I-amthegump · 1 points · Posted at 18:59:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Irony
IAmNotOnRedditAtWork · 1 points · Posted at 18:59:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Statistics.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:59:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Everything
lilmase777 · 1 points · Posted at 18:59:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Left lane is for passing. At least 90% of NJ/NY drivers don't seem to understand this.
gm4n22 · 1 points · Posted at 18:59:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Car lights on during a rainstorm isn't to help you see, it's to help people see you.
OC4815162342 · 1 points · Posted at 18:59:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The me_irl second coming of /u/warerguy12
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:59:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Issues are rarely black and white. When you take a side, you're usually inherently wrong because there is always a counter-example.
georgeamarante · 1 points · Posted at 18:59:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Economics
gubatron · 1 points · Posted at 18:59:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Credit
Rkellysmanager · 1 points · Posted at 18:59:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That the inside lane is for faster traffic/passing
SlackR76 · 1 points · Posted at 18:59:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
(H)erbs has an "h" at the beginning!
kittenmaster420 · 1 points · Posted at 18:59:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Driving
RealRecovery · 1 points · Posted at 18:59:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How email works.
JK2600 · 1 points · Posted at 18:59:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Finances. Even the most well meaning people don't understand basic personal finance.
Chenesis · 1 points · Posted at 18:59:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What the deal is with waterguy12 and fireguy12
bigflexy · 1 points · Posted at 18:59:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Bitcoin
oojb92 · 1 points · Posted at 19:00:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Car indicators and how to use them
RetroDinosaur · 1 points · Posted at 19:00:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You can not like something but that doesn't make it inherently bad. And vice versa.
yuutb · 1 points · Posted at 19:00:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
that it's not OK to repost. (I see you)
CoreEzyah · 1 points · Posted at 19:00:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Treat people how you want to be treated.
yuutb · 1 points · Posted at 19:00:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
that it's not OK to repost. (I see you)
Teapast6 · 1 points · Posted at 19:00:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That we the voters are responsible for the dysfunction of Congress. Repeatedly, polls show that we want our representatives to work together and to act in a bipartisan manner, but people forget that means compromise. And when campaign season comes round primary challengers focus on the ground given up and not what was gained (think GOP raising taxes as part of some bargain).
If we want politicians to work together than we should keep compromise in mind when a challenger paints an incumbent as a traitor to party ideals.
mdreed · 1 points · Posted at 19:00:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Marginal tax rates. Earning more money will never cause your after tax earnings to be less.
possessed_flea · 2 points · Posted at 19:20:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I will double down on this and say most people don't understand how tax works in general, Take a look at this guy ( who claims that his parents are senior accountants at top 4 firms. ), Follow the comment thread:
https://np.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/6qhpfr/sanders_im_absolutely_introducing_singlepayer/dkxvp2i/
Funnily enough it seems that those who are most vocal about it have the least idea.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:00:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How capitalism actually works in practice in the US. Plenty of opinions about how "the System" ought to work (, man), but very little comprehension of how it actually does.
draxor_666 · 1 points · Posted at 19:00:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That just because there are outliers doesnt mean there isnt a trend.
zeal00 · 1 points · Posted at 19:00:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Fax machines have been obsolete for 25 years. Stop using them.
WilfredTheGoat · 1 points · Posted at 19:00:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Roads being closed.
Rando- "Hi Officer, I just live right over there. I can just go around the road closed sign, right?"
No... no you cannot...
Edit: Spelling
Theobat · 1 points · Posted at 19:01:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It is better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it and remove all doubt.
fried_justice · 1 points · Posted at 19:01:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Inflation is a tax. We don't vote on it but we have to pay for it.
PM_ME_UR_MOODS · 1 points · Posted at 19:01:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sociopath vs psychopath
tllut · 1 points · Posted at 19:01:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Bitcoin. Seriously, wtf?
hermitsageMaster · 1 points · Posted at 19:01:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That rarely are people special. A wise young super villain once said, "when everyone's super, no one will be."
SonOfSparda304 · 1 points · Posted at 19:01:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I can't answer your question until you shut up.
Seriously, had a woman at work today ask me about goggles for her kid and after asking the simplest question (which one has clear lenses?) she kept interrupting me and obsessing over her little girl who she's not sure if she'll like whatever she gets.
Took about 10 minutes total to tell her "these ones with the clear lenses that aren't tinted" which was obvious if you had eyes in the first place.
mindcorners · 1 points · Posted at 19:01:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The poem "The Road Less Traveled" by Robert Frost. It is one of the most misinterpreted poems ever.
EmDeeEm · 1 points · Posted at 19:01:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How Tax brackets and withholding work
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:02:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Identical symptoms, problems, events, and behaviors, etc. can be rooted in different causes. The best response changes dramatically depending on cause.
You can have three people rocking back and forth and crying. One just lost her husband and is in need of comfort, one is mentally ill and could benefit from certain medication, and one is autistic and should not be hugged unexpectedly, and for whom the same medication that stops identical behaviors in the mentally ill woman could be dangerous.
We tend to assume if we see an issue we've seen before, know one cause of, and know how to fix, that we understand the problem and can and should fix it. Sometimes we really ought to not do so, or if we need to do so, should take the time to be sure we know what the problem is and the consequences our solution could have if we're wrong.
coolhandhutch · 1 points · Posted at 19:02:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to properly use the emergency department.
FluxRadieux · 1 points · Posted at 19:02:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
that you should (nearly) never use a flash. and no, it won't light the huge monument in the dark or the singer on stage.
koldavic · 1 points · Posted at 19:02:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How traffic works. In a jam slow and steady will make a flow, but instead everybody switches lanes and causes a stop and go.
ICSL · 1 points · Posted at 19:02:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Cell phone bills. If be out of a job of they did.
YourNeighborlySnail · 1 points · Posted at 19:02:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The Emoji Movie is a masterpiece.
filt · 1 points · Posted at 19:02:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Rocket science
Theophorus · 1 points · Posted at 19:02:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Medically, shock doesn't mean 'surprised'.
MajesticFxxkingEagle · 1 points · Posted at 19:02:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Nuance
razerblaza · 1 points · Posted at 19:03:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Meme magic
reallifedog · 1 points · Posted at 19:03:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Unless you are actually immobile there is ZERO reason to stop at the top of an escalator, the other side of a doorway, an intersection, anywhere there are other people. I do not care how confusing this subway station is; GET THE FUCK OUT OF THE WAY.
panjwani_ajay · 1 points · Posted at 19:03:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
that world power centralised eons ago and is highly organised behind the scenes outfit
liger_5 · 1 points · Posted at 19:03:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Things they talk about on the internet
lessworkiskey · 1 points · Posted at 19:03:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When I say Zero Fucks Given, that's what I mean.
asjaro · 1 points · Posted at 19:03:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
93% of all statistics are false.
Raziehh · 1 points · Posted at 19:03:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A lot of gold in this thread!
arnott · 1 points · Posted at 19:03:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Carbs are bad for you and fat is good for you. This one is 99% ?
TrustFulParanoid · 1 points · Posted at 19:03:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Reddit
PerplePapaya · 1 points · Posted at 19:04:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Building computers
Siphyre · 1 points · Posted at 19:04:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That what you see of an opposing political party is likely the crazies and that the entire party should not be judged by their actions. Prejudice is real.
NotJimmy97 · 1 points · Posted at 19:04:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That true statistical predictions are probabilistic. After Trump won the election, there was a huge backlash against Nate Silver/538 because they were 'wrong' about the election results for giving Hillary a 67% chance of winning.
What people don't realize is that basically everyone else predicting the election gave her a 80-99% chance. Not only that, but even if someone's model is 100% perfect and explains all the variation in the data, there's still a chance that the less-likely thing will happen. A dice isn't 'wrong' when it rolls a six, even though there's only a 16.6% chance of that happening.
homeostasisatwork · 1 points · Posted at 19:04:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oxygen isn't what what causes us to breathe. Carbon dioxide determines how much we breathe.
PumpkinSkink2 · 1 points · Posted at 19:04:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Statistics
GamerOfRock · 1 points · Posted at 19:05:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The difference between the Right Wing, Conservatives, and the Alt-Right.
Soman-Yonten · 1 points · Posted at 19:05:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"Any man who must say 'I am the king' is not true king." For my money this translates to: your assessment of yourself will always be wrong, whether it be about personality, skill, or any other aspect of yourself. You'll always be more or less of what you think you are.
The_Sobieski · 1 points · Posted at 19:05:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Competitive Pokemon
j_from_cali · 1 points · Posted at 19:05:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"Effect" vs. "affect". The effect of this misunderstanding is to complicate effective discourse. This adversely affects all of us. To effect change in this area, we must improve our grammar education. The affect of an engaged student is a joy to behold.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:05:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Probability vs possibility.
A roulette wheel has three colors. Red, black and green. Ten spins in a row is red. Which means the next one should be black! Bet on black! Wesley snipes! Passenger 57!
The reality is the probability is the same on every spin of the wheel and to plot a trend against it is specious.
Jtk317 · 1 points · Posted at 19:05:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This screenshot indicates that a great many people (aka Neo-Nazis) don't understand why America has been anti-Nazi since WWII. http://imgur.com/1cdHEap
gopherjuice · 1 points · Posted at 19:05:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How patents work
n3gotiator · 1 points · Posted at 19:05:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I find people who need the money most have the worst understanding of the US income tax. There is never a time when working OT or taking a raise will cause you to make less money. I heard that when I was young and told "don't accept the raise if they offer you above $xx, that will push you into a higher bracket and you'll make less" - this is completely incorrect. Overtime may push you into a higher tax bracket but ONLY for the amount over the "line". So you'll still pay the same taxes on the amount you made in the lower bracket, and then you'll pay a little more for the amount over that (but still will have made more money, it's never a loss).
snaggedbeef · 1 points · Posted at 19:05:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Trump is the best president America has ever seen. /s
TheTigglion · 1 points · Posted at 19:06:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Fucking traffic circles
magicmann2614 · 1 points · Posted at 19:06:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
People that watch football bashing people for watching video games. You're literally watching someone else play a game in both cases.
"Dad walks into kids room, 'why don't you play the video game instead of watching someone else play it?' Goes and sits on the couch and watches football"
raymondspogo · 1 points · Posted at 19:18:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But can you go play the video game? A sports fan can't just walk down to their teams venue, put on a uniform, and start playing with the team.
magicmann2614 · 1 points · Posted at 19:20:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Can a 10 year old go join their favorite eSports team and play?
Yes, it's easier to just play a video game. It takes time to bring people together to play a physical game. It still takes effort to get a group of people together in the same room and play video games too.
raymondspogo · 1 points · Posted at 21:02:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
-Can a 10 year old go join their favorite eSports team and play?
Yes, yes they can.
magicmann2614 · 1 points · Posted at 21:49:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Then I don't see why any Joe Schmo can't go and join their favorite football team.
raymondspogo · 1 points · Posted at 21:51:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think you do.
magicmann2614 · 1 points · Posted at 21:52:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So you've provided your own counter-argument then?
raymondspogo · 1 points · Posted at 22:32:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Your equating a 10yr old boy hoping on a video game with anybody jumping into a professional sports game.
The players of the Professional sports spend years practicing physically to be prepared to compete on a professional level. For example, in the NFL these guys take hits as hard as what a small car could do at 30mph (at least)
I'm sure there are skills needed to play a video game at a professional level, but those skills are nowhere near as hard to obtain as professional sports players.
In less than a year I'm sure a 10yr old boy could play a video game at a professional level.
So if I were to take a 10yr old boy and "Joe Schmoe" and place them in their respective sports all of a sudden, I'd be willing to bet that the 10yr old boy would have a better chance of being able to hang in with the professionals. Joe Schmoe would probably end up in the hospital.
magicmann2614 · 1 points · Posted at 22:39:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you are convinced that a 10 year old can become a professional eSports player in under a year, then you're delusional.
A kid hopping on a video game to play is the same as someone calling up friends to play backyard football.
Also, you clearly do not know how good the professional eSports players are at their respective games. The 10 year old joining their league would be like the South Park episode where the Red Wings play the South Park Elementary kids.
The professional eSports players also spend years and countless hours practicing and prepping for their games and tournaments. In the case of say, League of Legends (was featured on ESPN once), there is a very strategic planning phase before the game even begins.
A 30 mph hit would be fast for what's possible in the NFL unless you're a wide receiver and you get lined up perfectly, it's not that fast.
raymondspogo · 1 points · Posted at 23:03:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Let me put it this way:
You can be a prodigy at video games. You can't be a prodigy in professional sports.
magicmann2614 · 1 points · Posted at 22:40:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You're part of the 90%. I'm convinced.
aadair86 · 1 points · Posted at 19:07:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That the far left lane is simply for passing and not a lane you should travel on for miles and miles
umeneed2knownow · 1 points · Posted at 19:07:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Money. How credit is monetized and how credits disappear when a debt is paid. And that if every debt is paid all money would disappear.
MrTow88 · 1 points · Posted at 19:07:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Keep right except to pass, or slower traffic keep right (Canada and USA).
WesStrikesBack · 1 points · Posted at 19:25:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's a true 90%+ that are ignorant of that. Pull to the right, I have speeding tickets waiting!
poorminion · 1 points · Posted at 19:07:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
E=MC2
shroudedwolf51 · 1 points · Posted at 19:12:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well, yeah. Because it's the incomplete equation under nearly all scenarios, as objects that bith, have mass yet aren't moving aren't what you're typically going to be measuring.
TabzyMcLoan · 1 points · Posted at 19:07:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Finding the clit
Xeerie · 1 points · Posted at 19:07:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think it's Bitcoin and the Blockchain technology behind it. While some people do not understand it, most smart make a big money. The main trick is 90% of these 90% can't figure out most important thing: you do not need to understand how exactly Bitcoin works to buy it, to own it, to use it, and to make money with it. Do you know how VISA or AE, or Western Union work? Do you know what software do they use? The same for Bitcoin, all you need is a little bit of curiosity and basic math knowledges.
The_DrLamb · 1 points · Posted at 19:07:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Science, the scientific method Global warming Evolution Stars Refrigerators The Internal combustion engine Computers How to plug in a USB The big bang theory Gravity Quantum mechanics Magnets - how's that shit work Electricity Who invented the lightbulb (not Edison) What makes the sky blue? Condoms <- conjecture Advertising Politics Algebra Calculus Doing taxes Budgeting Personal finance
I'm sure there's more, but those came to mind first. Really when you get right down to it we take a lot of our reality for granted, inventions people have made, information we're told to be true, or stuff we just don't think about. Not that it's a bad thing, not everyone needs to know how to build a toaster.
JoanFoster · 1 points · Posted at 19:07:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
They are responsible for themselves and their actions.
bigguysmalldog · 1 points · Posted at 19:07:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
People only value you as much as you value yourself. If you walk around with the demeanor of someone who is worthy of respect, people will show you that respect.
However, if you behave like you need validation, are subservient or aren't aware of your own self worth, people pick up on that and treat you accordingly.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:07:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Logic...
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:07:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The Middle East. I am Middle Eastern and we have so many little nuances of loyalty, hate and history that I don't even know what is going on.
WesStrikesBack · 2 points · Posted at 19:23:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A large part of me thinks that the ME and FL have the same problem. It's hard to act rationally when your brain is simmering at 120 degrees. FL has meth and opioids, you have ISIS, which are equally destructive.
RoyalPepper · 1 points · Posted at 19:07:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What the weatherperson means when they say the chance of rain.
Example: “A 50% chance of rain” doesn’t mean that there’s a 50% chance it’s going to rain everywhere. Which is what most people think it means.
3dds · 1 points · Posted at 19:08:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to fucking merge
WesStrikesBack · 2 points · Posted at 19:21:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Every day I see people merge without looking --part of me wishes I had such faith in destiny--but more of me wonders how soon these asshats will kill someone.
SirChedore · 1 points · Posted at 19:08:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Working night shift makes you wake uo late. I'm not lazy smh
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:08:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Budget and how to save money
Mplisko · 1 points · Posted at 19:08:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sarcasm
WesStrikesBack · 1 points · Posted at 19:19:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm offended!
JohniiMagii · 1 points · Posted at 19:08:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That more than half of people ARE above average intelligence.
There are more stupid people than super geniuses, and the stupid people are stupider than the smart people, skewing the mean below the median.
flexylol · 1 points · Posted at 19:08:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Eating doesn't make you fat. Sugar, carbs etc. don't make you fat. The fact that you're not moving your ass and your only "exercise" is these three steps from your door into your car (in the morning, and then later when you come home) every day makes you fat.
WesStrikesBack · 1 points · Posted at 19:18:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I would agree with you if you said 'eat less, move more'.
Sumo wrestlers are close or morbidly obese and they work out a lot.
swallowingpanic · 1 points · Posted at 19:08:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
the actual danger or non-danger of AI
baldguyken · 1 points · Posted at 19:08:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You cant just stop at the top/bottom of a moving escalator full of people. You have to move so the people behind you can get off.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:08:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Bitcoin
Clickheretoo · 1 points · Posted at 19:08:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is probably going to get buried but confirmation bias is something we all fall victim to every day. It can help us alot but can also hold us back.
didsburydan · 1 points · Posted at 19:08:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There are more people on the pavement/sidewalk than just you. Hurry the fk up or get the fk out of everyone's way.
EskimoCheeks · 1 points · Posted at 19:08:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That being Jewish doesn't mean you're from Israel.
Drizos35 · 1 points · Posted at 19:08:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
that the Earth is flat.
datsunevolution · 1 points · Posted at 19:08:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Life.
SpacemanBatman · 1 points · Posted at 19:08:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Nazis =Bad At least in rural Florida this seems to be the case
Godzilla_Fan · 1 points · Posted at 19:09:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You're is different than Your Too is different than To
frostgryph · 1 points · Posted at 19:09:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Throwing dirt is losing ground
TheBumStinkler · 1 points · Posted at 19:09:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Blockchains
REMagic42 · 1 points · Posted at 19:09:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Mathematics, statistics.
Same probably goes for all other sciences as well. Chances are 90% of people have no clue about your field of study or expertise.
Spiderman1738 · 1 points · Posted at 19:09:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to use their blinkers
WobbityJenkins · 1 points · Posted at 19:09:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Freedom of speech and public opinion are two entirely different things.
Sharnington · 1 points · Posted at 19:09:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Life.
pedrobeara · 1 points · Posted at 19:09:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
how to use google.com
nozamy · 1 points · Posted at 19:09:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Evolutionary theory.
WesStrikesBack · 1 points · Posted at 19:15:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How come there's still monkeys if we evolved from them?
/facepalm
nozamy · 1 points · Posted at 22:39:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
yep, exactly
ProfessorDurgan · 1 points · Posted at 19:09:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That traps.arent gay
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:09:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You're IT guy didn't break your computer... Don't be a dick when you call them.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:09:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Nickelback is the greatest thing to happen to Rock n Roll, and skinny jeans
BoboDupla · 1 points · Posted at 19:09:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That if you don't agree with A, it doesn't mean you automatically agree with B. Example: If I don't agree with Trump it doesn't mean I do agree with Democrats. Or, if I am not a fan of Black Lives Matter it doesn't automatically mean that I am a racist.
ILikeToRunInCircles · 1 points · Posted at 19:09:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Constantly complaining about an issue doesn't help anyone fix the issue. It is just noise. If you don't have anything to contribute to the solution than let those that do work in peace.
DelusionalChampion · 1 points · Posted at 19:09:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That admitting you're wrong doesn't make you weak. It actually quells that fire of "Me vs them" and you start finding ways to reach a middle ground rather than "winning".
norton_the_3st · 1 points · Posted at 19:09:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Us, the Chosen Ten Percent.
FCAlive · 1 points · Posted at 19:09:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
p-values
xxAkirhaxx · 1 points · Posted at 19:10:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Logic. I'm not saying I'm fully fluent either, but it's striking the amount of people that don't understand simple logic. Every person on the planet should take a basic philosophy or a math logic course.
It's hard to expect everyone in the world to understand every law we have, every differing opinion, every culture, and how all of them relate and have related through history. But if we all understood how to critically think about these things, it would help immensely.
the_fern386 · 1 points · Posted at 19:10:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Treat others the way you would like to he treated.
LimpyTaco · 1 points · Posted at 19:10:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to drive.
chrisnichols82 · 1 points · Posted at 19:10:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Turn signals...
cherryredcherrybomb · 1 points · Posted at 19:10:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to look at things from other peoples perspectives
dewbwoy · 1 points · Posted at 19:10:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The left lane is for PASSING.
gooksavage · 1 points · Posted at 19:10:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Their car
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:10:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to have an argument
That you should listen at least as much as you talk, if not more.
That you should identify ONE point of contention and go back and forth with an open mind and an intent to reach consensus. Not bring up a different point of contention when you have nothing else to say
UnspoiledWalnut · 1 points · Posted at 19:10:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you have 10+ people and are going out to a restaurant, you should call ahead.
CaptnThunderBolt · 1 points · Posted at 19:10:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That Halloween is the best holiday.
lol_no12 · 1 points · Posted at 19:10:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The prophecy of u/waterguy12 saving us from doom
LayneLowe · 1 points · Posted at 19:10:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Evolution does not have an agenda. Change just happens and it survies and propigates or it doesn't. There is no mechanism for genetic change to happen with a pupose.
fungobatbeater59 · 1 points · Posted at 19:10:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to parallel park
orangesheepdog · 1 points · Posted at 19:10:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The DNC killed Seth Rich.
SpaceXzar · 1 points · Posted at 19:10:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The left lane on a road is for passing only, not loitering
nebuNSFW · 1 points · Posted at 19:10:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Opinions can be wrong.
ThePainapple · 1 points · Posted at 19:11:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When reversing, you turn the way you want the back of the car to go. The front will swing in the opposite direction.
I'm a driving instructor tired of hearing "which way should I turn the wheel?"
Turkey_bacon_bananas · 1 points · Posted at 19:11:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Percentages
RoadsidePicnic_ · 1 points · Posted at 19:11:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Your deductible has nothing to do with your coverage!!!
TheWanderlustStoner · 1 points · Posted at 19:11:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to replace the toilet paper roll.
drprivate · 1 points · Posted at 19:11:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yoga pants should not be worn by most that wear them
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:11:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Logic
nickbitty72 · 1 points · Posted at 19:11:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That pretty much the entire world is up for interpretation. Many people think their opinions are simply the way the world is. Im talking about things like their favorite color is the only favorite color someone could have, and everyone else is wrong
lashed1 · 1 points · Posted at 19:11:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Logic
SupSrsRAGER · 1 points · Posted at 19:11:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Using a fucking blinker
promixr · 1 points · Posted at 19:11:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The animals you consume for food do not want to die.
TreyWait · 1 points · Posted at 19:11:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Gravity
drprivate · 1 points · Posted at 19:11:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Stupid is a learned trait
mikeyReiach · 1 points · Posted at 19:11:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Quantum mechanics
Lamantins · 1 points · Posted at 19:12:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Freedom of Expression extends even to people you disagree with.
AngrySeniorCitizen · 1 points · Posted at 19:12:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That putting bread in the fridge makes it mold quicker.
MpVpRb · 1 points · Posted at 19:12:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That nobody really knows what 90% if the population believes
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:12:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That you get what you pay for.
Carefully_random · 1 points · Posted at 19:12:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What it feels like to be decimated.
m3rph · 1 points · Posted at 19:12:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
At 31 now, I realize we have been told our whole lives through entertainment to follow our dreams. 90% give up on those and work whatever jobs.
Do not give up on your dreams, if you do what you love for work, your not really working...
I took up art, piano, writing, etc to further my creativity in the last year - happiest year of my life.
CoachToughLove · 1 points · Posted at 19:12:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Human mating and the influence of our subconscious mind on our who we choose to stay with.
(we're all just animals people)
_emm_bee_gee · 1 points · Posted at 19:12:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"Freedom of speech" doesn't protect you from being flamed on Facebook.
poolerboy0077 · 1 points · Posted at 19:12:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
White privilege.
<patiently awaits fury>
Insomniacrobat · 1 points · Posted at 19:12:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That the government doesn't care at all about, you, me, or any other average citizen.
jsnoots · 1 points · Posted at 19:12:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Weather vs climate
LiAbAl · 1 points · Posted at 19:12:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
PEMDAS when solving math problems
badwolf8713 · 1 points · Posted at 19:12:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
that i don't fucking care
qwertyctb098 · 1 points · Posted at 19:12:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A true conservative. Not the conservatives that the left or the media likes to portray.
Jebjebbbb · 1 points · Posted at 19:12:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to use turn signals
_Phreedom · 1 points · Posted at 19:12:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Crypto Currency. Even difficult for some computer literate people.
I_Am_Decent_At_Fifa · 1 points · Posted at 19:12:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Deft hands is bad
dannixxphantom · 1 points · Posted at 19:12:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Money is a strict barrier on my opportunities. So sick of the Facebook posts saying "instead of watching it on TV, go there!" Or bullshit about how being worldly is a good attribute.
Sorry, but the free cable I watch at the University I pay to attend with loans is very different from getting a passport, airfare, hotel, and food in another country. Also, I would lose even more money because I'd have to take time off work.
Moving out of my parents house is still impossible. I tried. Worked full time, attended college full time, and had my own house. Had to swallow my pride more than once and ask for money so I could eat/keep the power on. I also had no car payment, cellphone bill (I need a phone for work/contacting family), insurance, etc.
09ec000566 · 1 points · Posted at 19:13:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Stock Markets
letienphat1 · 1 points · Posted at 19:13:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
bitcoin
n1elsen95 · 1 points · Posted at 19:13:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That eating animals is wrong.
if you downvote, you prove me right
kinjinsan · 2 points · Posted at 19:25:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And if you upvote you prove that unicorns were real!
grantking2256 · 1 points · Posted at 19:13:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Quantum theory, more specifically, quantum teleportation, and how we have already achieved it.
deeps420 · 1 points · Posted at 19:13:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What 80% chance of precipitation means
ThatFunnyBanana · 1 points · Posted at 19:13:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I used to run Track & Field. My PR for the 100m race was 12.7.
People always say "Wow you're so close to beating Usain" or "Dang running the 100m is super easy then". When that's NOT the case at all.
REC_PLAY · 1 points · Posted at 19:13:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A 4 way stop. Just because you arrived their second does not necessarily mean you have the right of way.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:13:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Antibiotics are for killing bacteria.
Bostonterrierpug · 1 points · Posted at 19:13:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
As a college professor no matter how many times we said every semester I get students to ask questions that are bolded on the syllabus. I have a total of 100 points in all my classes and students will still ask me regularly how much a 10 point project counts to their final grade.
Generiktattoo · 1 points · Posted at 19:13:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Bitcoin
valtazar · 1 points · Posted at 19:13:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Bitcoin
ManVersusFap · 1 points · Posted at 19:13:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The difference between your and you're.
Kronos_PRIME · 1 points · Posted at 19:13:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Free usually comes at a cost even if it isn't readily apparent.
Hayley9000 · 1 points · Posted at 19:13:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just because we disagree about X doesn't mean we aren't allies in the fight against Y.
DekoGG · 1 points · Posted at 19:13:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Communism, Capitalism, Fascism, and well... anything political actually.
Goyims · 1 points · Posted at 19:13:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How planes work. It's magic tbh.
Tommmmygun · 1 points · Posted at 19:13:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Quatum physics and the difference between "your" and "you're".
Chickmagnetwompaone1 · 1 points · Posted at 19:14:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The difference between a magazine and a clip.
Cable114 · 1 points · Posted at 19:14:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Wards are important!
SwegasaurusRex · 1 points · Posted at 19:14:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Being on time
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:14:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Probably Differential Equations.
dredneckgod · 1 points · Posted at 19:14:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Taxation is theft.
kilroy_was_here · 1 points · Posted at 19:14:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That in the U.S. a cash payment cannot be refused because the currency says it's "Legal Tender For All Debts, Public and Private".
KillerChicken48 · 1 points · Posted at 19:25:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
but they can deny the sale completely. if you owe them money for something they HAVE to take it. but if nothing is owed yet they can just say, "yea no deal" and not even establish a transaction
unresolved-lurker · 1 points · Posted at 19:14:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Domestic violence.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:14:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Turn signals.
Landbill · 1 points · Posted at 19:14:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Common sense.
AnythingApplied · 1 points · Posted at 19:14:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Evaluating percents like "90%" in real world situations. I always have to translate:
SassiesSoiledPanties · 1 points · Posted at 19:14:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That plain dumb luck and networking have more to do with your success in life than most people would readily admit. You can be smart, a hard worker, have a university degree and be healthy and still be unemployed.
Dranzell · 1 points · Posted at 19:14:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You cannot pause online games. Dammit mom!
FreeRangeAlien · 1 points · Posted at 19:14:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The left lane is for passing and if there is someone tailgating you that means you're a shitty asshole driver that needs to move to the right
Just_Chillaxin · 1 points · Posted at 19:14:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Finkle IS Einhorn!
SleepyDani · 1 points · Posted at 19:14:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Logic
Wipefairy · 1 points · Posted at 19:14:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
monads
Paramagic3477 · 1 points · Posted at 19:14:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Taking an ambulance to the ER doesn't get you to the front of the line
wang_li · 1 points · Posted at 19:14:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The concept of fungibility.
And the difference between mandatory and discretionary.
KieranMontgomery · 1 points · Posted at 19:14:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You can't divide by zero.
Clamdilicus · 1 points · Posted at 19:14:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
To keep their kids quiet in the doctor's office.
Blewedup · 1 points · Posted at 19:15:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
any of the posts that get large amounts of upvotes should get large amounts of downvotes, since they are obviously understood by more than 10% of people. the submissions that only get one upvote win.
zacree · 1 points · Posted at 19:15:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You ARE traffic. You are not in it. The reason that you are stuck in one spot and not moving is because some selfish jerk cut someone off ten miles up and everyone slowed down and now you're stopped and considering cutting someone else off to save ten seconds on your commute. Be predicable. If you might miss your exit, miss it and take the next one.
DefinitelyNotThatOne · 1 points · Posted at 19:15:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No one cares if you're in charge, or if you're the boss at where you work, or how much you can impose yourself to inflate your ego. I'm in my late 20's and I come across people who are twice my age who are still trying to prove to everyone around them how great and smart they are. I lost my desire for approval in my early 20's, cause I've been through experiences that have shown me how capable I am. So I don't go to work (where I'm a manager) trying to show everyone how awesome I am at solving incredibly simple problems, and focus on running the store, while the other managers around me spend all their time trying to establish dominance and not running the store. So fucking stupid.
Okeano_ · 1 points · Posted at 19:15:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The definition of 90% apparently, according to the responses in this thread.
MuammarHyx · 1 points · Posted at 19:15:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to operate a self checkout machine.
jh38654 · 1 points · Posted at 19:15:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Evolution: organisms do not intentionally evolve, and to go even farther, individuals don't evolve, populations evolve over generations. And let's not get started on the fact we did not come from monkeys, we evolved alongside monkeys.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:15:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not judging has bit me in the ass so many times. Could've avoided a lot of issues by being more judgemental.
RonnieRegan10 · 1 points · Posted at 19:15:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You don't need an antibiotic for a cold
Aezuriel · 1 points · Posted at 19:15:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That they aren't part of the other 10%.
lnsetick · 1 points · Posted at 19:15:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The complement system of innate immunity
Kaionacho · 1 points · Posted at 19:15:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"No" means NO!
nybx4life · 1 points · Posted at 19:18:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sometimes..."No" can also mean no.
tingting42 · 1 points · Posted at 19:15:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A debate does not mean you have to convince the other side why your side is right.
mikebellman · 1 points · Posted at 19:15:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Why a full moon always occurs near midnight.
UNDEADUSA · 1 points · Posted at 19:15:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Math
ijee88 · 1 points · Posted at 19:15:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That most/all major social media sites are co-opted by sociopolitical/business entities.
AatroxIsBae · 1 points · Posted at 19:15:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I study my field for a living. I know the in's and outs, stop trying to fucking correct my knowledge WHEN I LITERALLY TOOK A FUCKING CLASS ON IT
ditzyzebra · 1 points · Posted at 19:15:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Being violent towards people who don't agree with you will make them like you less. If you want people to be on your side, you have to treat them as humans and calmly explain your reasoning. Yelling at people and calling them names only makes them turn against you more.
Unmanageable2 · 1 points · Posted at 19:15:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Turning left (in the US) against multiple moving lanes of traffic? You don't magically get granted right of way because someone waves you on.
generalnotsew · 1 points · Posted at 19:15:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That the weather isn't isolated to your state or area. Everyone seems to think that when a heatwave hits the country it is only in their small little area.
Linton_P_Bubbleflick · 1 points · Posted at 19:15:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Percentages. It seems like 5 in 10 people that I meet don't understand them.
KillerChicken48 · 1 points · Posted at 19:21:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
would you say, like 50% of people dont understand them?
Linton_P_Bubbleflick · 1 points · Posted at 19:32:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well, 5/7ths maybe
jermleeds · 1 points · Posted at 19:16:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Individuals don't evolve, species do. And evolution doesn't happen with a goal, it happens randomly through mutations, and a very small fraction of those mutations provide any benefit wrt/ reproduction, which is the only reason they are preserved (minor oversimplification).
MAC_Addy · 1 points · Posted at 19:16:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
People of Oklahoma - they don't understand how to drive.
Most people, spanning tree. It's a networking thing.
DrOnePunch · 1 points · Posted at 19:16:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The difference between feminist theory and queer theory. This is even with academic circles it seems sometimes. Remember people, it's theory. It applies to many situations, not all.
TheAKofClubs · 1 points · Posted at 19:16:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Freedom of speech in the US.
ftlaudman · 1 points · Posted at 19:16:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Mormons.
Source: am Mormon. :-)
adanipse · 1 points · Posted at 19:16:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That ignorance is strength.
NEVERDOUBTED · 1 points · Posted at 19:16:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Loaning someone money will gain you a friendship. Asking for the money back will gain you an enemy.
DarkwaterDilemma · 1 points · Posted at 19:16:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Progressive tax brackets. I swear my brain bleeds every time I hear someone say be careful because if you make slightly more money you might get pushed into a higher tax bracket and THEN YOU'LL LOSE ALL YOUR MONIES!
ravn67 · 1 points · Posted at 19:16:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That the emergency room is the doctor's office for you and your 4 kids. Going to the ER for a runny nose and cough just makes it longer for people with real emergencies to be seen.
DeemedUnfit · 1 points · Posted at 19:16:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Why I park in 2 parking spaces. I don't want anyone to to scratch my DeLorean DMC-12.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:16:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
90% of the comment section are "yeah that's definitely NOT me updot" when reading comments.
But 90% of them don't understand they are actually acting like this
raydude · 1 points · Posted at 19:16:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's just as bad to marginalize, resent, and attack racists as it is for them to marginalize, resent and attack minorities.
The only way we can healthfully teach others to let go of their need to blame is to set an example by being loving, caring and compassionate toward them.
stevie7 · 1 points · Posted at 19:16:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In Colorado it seems to be merging lanes. People act as if they don't exist!!! So freakin frustrating.
passivemonster · 1 points · Posted at 19:16:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
/uWaterGuy12
UHaveGot2B · 1 points · Posted at 19:16:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Traffic circles
enigma969 · 1 points · Posted at 19:16:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Bitcoin
Driftwoodjim · 1 points · Posted at 19:16:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
THAT YOU HAVE TO KNOCK ON THE FUCKING DOOR BEFORE ENTERING THE GODDAMNED BATHROOM
cfish031 · 1 points · Posted at 19:16:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The passing lane in traffic 🙄
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:16:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well as a "republican" I feel like 90% of republicans don't understand that democrats also have guns and that if "shit hit the fan" those thoughts that many of them have that "we'll have the guns so it won't be a challenge" is entirely false, also stupid. Also that democrats aren't "the enemy" they're just people who think differently about certain social aspects. Personally I just want lower taxes, I could care less if a lesbian smokes weed and marries a girl, and planned parenthood should be a thing we all support. If two guys wanna hold hands, 🤷♀️ don't care. Just lower my taxes please.
rbrehm · 1 points · Posted at 19:16:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A simple Excel formula
tucker-priest · 1 points · Posted at 19:16:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Opinions and the fact that everyone has a right to theirs.
mjmarines · 1 points · Posted at 19:16:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Without reading all the comments, I would say it's 'insurance'.
dhino4 · 1 points · Posted at 19:16:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If three cars arrive at an intersection at the same time, which one goes first?
Caleb-Rentpayer · 1 points · Posted at 19:16:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The indisputable fact that Hitler did absolutely nothing wrong.
Trypno · 1 points · Posted at 19:17:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A 'Closed' sign
MysticTwitch · 1 points · Posted at 19:17:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That evolution is a fact as opposed to being a belief.
NEVERDOUBTED · 1 points · Posted at 19:17:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That you should not eat a banana in the men's locker room.
lessismore11 · 1 points · Posted at 19:17:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Computer science
vytal2life · 1 points · Posted at 19:17:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Freedom of speech means you have the right to say what you want and the US GOVERNMENT cannot silence you or punish you for it. It does NOT mean your employer, peers, constituents, the internet, or any private citizen, business, or institution must agree with, host, tolerate, or publicize your opinion.
carlmanx · 1 points · Posted at 19:17:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How percentages work.
WesStrikesBack · 1 points · Posted at 19:17:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to fly commercially. Get there early, be nice to everyone, follow instructions and have a few drinks.
Spoffle · 1 points · Posted at 19:17:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to use apostrophes.
Skeptickler · 1 points · Posted at 19:18:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Hear, hear! And commas.
ManThatYouVR · 1 points · Posted at 19:17:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Xbox one has no decent exclusives.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:17:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Twin peaks
thedailymotions · 1 points · Posted at 19:17:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Women
Raspberries-Are-Evil · 1 points · Posted at 19:17:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Four stop. You were there first, just fucking go.
Cpu46 · 1 points · Posted at 19:17:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
90% of the people I know don't seem to understand that a blank space in my schedule isn't an opening to include me in your plans.
It's a carefully calculated and strictly enforced vacation from the noise of the world. It's not a simple lack of activity, it's my precious agenda of nothing.
highlevelsofsalt · 1 points · Posted at 19:17:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The fact that somebody has different political views to you DOES NOT NECESSARILY MAKE THEM A BAD PERSON
ciano · 1 points · Posted at 19:17:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Being condescending weakens your position no matter how right you are.
Not that I'd expect you to understand that.
frontyfront · 1 points · Posted at 19:17:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Large scale exponential growth.
LaurenBray2000 · 1 points · Posted at 19:18:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Kindness
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:18:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How does the internet work? Does anyone own it? Who's in charge?
2am · 1 points · Posted at 19:18:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That it doesn't make sense when they say "I could care less".
WilliamMurderfacex3 · 1 points · Posted at 19:18:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How I could just . . . Kill a man.
Korean_Yeezuss · 1 points · Posted at 19:18:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Compound Interest
TheRealSilverBlade · 1 points · Posted at 19:18:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When you go to a bank for a loan, the bank doesn't actually give you money. No money transfers from the bank's funds to your account.
All that happens is the bank types some figures onto your account, and bingo, you have the loan. You, now, have to pay off that loan over time with a certain percentage on top.
The bank effectively makes money by loaning you literally nothing.
unreasonableperson · 1 points · Posted at 19:18:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The United States Constitution, specifically the First Amendment.
EdibleSpoons · 1 points · Posted at 19:18:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Common sense
bossmanpb · 1 points · Posted at 19:18:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you don't understand something don't try to dismiss it by saying it's wrong.
woosel · 1 points · Posted at 19:18:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Percentages.
DrunkenHooker · 1 points · Posted at 19:18:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You are not that special.
hemeroidcream · 1 points · Posted at 19:18:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Turn signals
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:18:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
White privilege
damukobrakai · 1 points · Posted at 19:18:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That they don't know enough to judge anyone.
Binge_Gaming · 1 points · Posted at 19:18:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You shouldn't go off the path near thermal springs.
Wolfram6942 · 1 points · Posted at 19:18:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That the US public is under a constant, high-level propaganda campaign to manipulate their emotions and beliefs.
Krissy_loo · 1 points · Posted at 19:18:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
IQ, how to negotiate a raise, how to communicate.
xGazd · 1 points · Posted at 19:18:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to use a turn signal properly
bbdvl · 1 points · Posted at 19:18:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That all of the religious and spiritual beliefs are man made bs.
starkiller22265 · 1 points · Posted at 19:19:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That religious freedom means separation of church and state, not an excuse to integrate the two.
jonathanquirk · 1 points · Posted at 19:19:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That global warming will make the planet wetter, not drier. People seem to equate "warming" with "dry weather", which on a planet whose surface is 70% water ain't gonna happen. Millions of people will happily boil a kettle of water, the water vapour will hit the cold window and turn to water, yet whenever it rains I'll inevitably hear complains like "I hope global warming happens soon, I don't like the rain".
SackMastaP · 1 points · Posted at 19:19:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How a two-lane highway works
Mk1Md1 · 1 points · Posted at 19:19:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you don't have anything nice to say then don't say anything.
If you have something to say that isn't nice but must be said do it with respect.
LezBfriendz47 · 1 points · Posted at 19:19:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yield
Lebonmoment · 1 points · Posted at 19:19:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Tax brackets.
athwartthelotus · 1 points · Posted at 19:19:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No one ever changed their mind in the middle of an argument. You might be 100% correct, but the other person isn't going to suddenly stop and be like, you know what, you're right! It's just not going to happen. Practical explanations and personal life experience changes people. Not arguing.
L0NESHARK · 1 points · Posted at 19:19:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You don't get to tell people how to live.
liquidxdream · 1 points · Posted at 19:19:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Health insurance and prescription insurance.
p1qrst · 1 points · Posted at 19:19:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Genetics and psychology, hear a lot of people using old outdated theories and basing their world view on it.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:19:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
that you don't have a "right" to do whatever the fuck you want or say whatever the fuck you want. you're legal rights are actually pretty limited.
PM-Me-Your-BeesKnees · 1 points · Posted at 19:19:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Statistics, polling, and probability. (The irony of my response as a response to the title of the post is not lost on me).
Yes, you really can take a scientific poll of 1,000 people and essentially know what 300 million people think about a given topic.
When someone says there is a 60% chance of X happening, if X does not happen, that does not "prove them wrong."
If something has a 50% probability of occurring, your odds don't get better for the next try because it didn't happen last time. There's no such thing as being "due" (in a series of independent events).
Plenty of other examples, but those come to mind.
Bossdwarf · 1 points · Posted at 19:19:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That race is a human created concept. We're all the same species other than minor physical features.
frrrfreddd · 1 points · Posted at 19:19:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A 50% chance of rain means there is a 100% chance half the area will have rain.
JeremyBoob · 1 points · Posted at 19:21:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Wait what???
Netcob · 1 points · Posted at 19:19:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In youtube comment sections: Basically everything. It's a fascinating place, where the most skilled commenters will misunderstand something on multiple levels at once. Others will reply, opposing the first commenter, but misunderstanding the issue in an entirely new way. It's an absolute wonderland of stupidity.
Sh4rkA77ack · 1 points · Posted at 19:19:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Newton's First Law
8slider · 1 points · Posted at 19:20:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The downvote button isn't an "I disagree" button
OGluc1f3r · 1 points · Posted at 19:20:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Please / Thank you.
JoshuaRAWR · 1 points · Posted at 19:20:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Your and You're.
sotpsean · 1 points · Posted at 19:20:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No, I can't just learn how to play guitar right handed.
I'm a lefty.
Cub3nsis · 1 points · Posted at 19:20:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The difference between lte and wifi
Spoffle · 1 points · Posted at 19:20:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The program called "design.exe" that automatically and instantly produces design work with only only a few words to describe what you want, doesn't actually exist and that design work takes time and effort.
Gaskikestoday · 1 points · Posted at 19:20:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That they're useless.
Jlee7481 · 1 points · Posted at 19:21:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That trump won and Hillary lost ha ha ha
mattress757 · 1 points · Posted at 19:21:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That to be truly egalitarian, you need to call out racism and sexism and every ism in all its forms, not just in the most frequent forms.
To not do it this way is why things like feminism have strayed into sillyland.
When I'm in a discussion with someone on this issue - I will tell them "I stand in the middle. I'm not on any team. I want what's best for everyone."
It's the us vs them mentality about people fighting for equality that makes it very easily mocked.
franktronic · 1 points · Posted at 19:21:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The claims made on the labels of health and beauty products are mostly bullshit. They either use weasel words like "enhances" that imply a lot but mean virtually nothing or they boast of things that aren't really a big deal. One of my favorites: "Clinically proven to relieve skin dryness for 24 hours." Yep, that's what moisturizer does alright.
jumpingswan54 · 1 points · Posted at 19:21:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"Push" does not mean "Pull".
Audiopod · 1 points · Posted at 19:21:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
WD-40 is NOT a lubricant!
GravityTracker · 1 points · Posted at 19:23:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Why do you say that?
Audiopod · 1 points · Posted at 19:34:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's listed on WD-40 official website as a myth. They say that it's technically a lubricant, it's job is to clean things. For some tasks around the house, WD-40 offers the job of both cleaning and lubricating, but in the long term it will cause problems.
GravityTracker · 1 points · Posted at 19:47:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Where? I looked at their site, and I couldn't find anything where they say this is a myth. But I do see this: LUBE
Maxxover · 1 points · Posted at 19:21:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Why certain features can't be added to video games. Most of the time, it's because they are thinking like human players. AI behavior is a lot harder to alter, especially in the later stages of development. It can become a game of whack-a-mole, where you fix or add one thing, and it creates a bunch of human-exploitable things someplace else.
Praughna · 1 points · Posted at 19:21:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The metric system vs standard
RogueTaxidermist · 1 points · Posted at 19:21:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That our world is operated and controlled by about 8500 of the worlds most wealthy people and they have designed our entire world system so that nobody can ever get too far ahead and take the power back from them.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:21:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That science can't be wrong. Let me clarify: the ideas of science are constantly in flux and science questions itself continually. But if you understand that science is the methodical testing and presentation of facts, it isn't wrong. You can "believe" whatever you want, but you can't say that science is "wrong"
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:21:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Don't be a dick and people will do anything for you..
YourOwnGrandmother · 1 points · Posted at 19:21:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Trump is a moderate and the news you watch is imbecilic.
iamthemightypotato · 1 points · Posted at 19:21:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Cod WW2 wasn't mean to be realistic, get over it.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:21:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
how many reddit users are on mobile
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:21:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Dads are parents too. Not just babysitters. Sick of people saying I'm "babysitting" when I take my child out in his pushchair, or if Mummy is out for a little while.
InukChinook · 1 points · Posted at 19:21:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ctrl + f "how I could just kill a man"
Am extremely disappointed.
Chadilac_Killz · 1 points · Posted at 19:21:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What about those people you hear about lifting things well beyond their capabilities in order to save someone's life, thanks to adrenaline. Would you say they gave 110 percent?
Moonlightwolf_52 · 1 points · Posted at 19:21:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You must come to a COMPLETE stop at stop signs.
CallMeDoc24 · 1 points · Posted at 19:21:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The environmental and economic impact eating meat and other animal products has on us. We tell our young ones to eat their (animal) protein and drink their (cow's) milk without putting a lot of thought into the foods and alternative possibilities. For example, from a recent study:
Oxford researchers found that, by 2050, food-related greenhouse gas emissions could account for half of the emissions the world can afford if global warming is to be limited to less than 2°C. Adopting global dietary guidelines would cut food-related emissions by 29%, vegetarian diets by 63%, and vegan diets by 70%.
Modelling the economic benefits of dietary change, changes to plant-based diets could produce savings of $700-$1,000 billion (US) per year on healthcare, unpaid informal care and lost working days. The value that society places on the reduced risk of dying could even be as high as 9-13% of global GDP, or $20-$30 trillion (US). In addition, the researchers found that the economic benefit of reduced greenhouse gas emissions from dietary changes could be as much as $570 billion (US).
fosiacat · 1 points · Posted at 19:21:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The first ammendment doesnt mean that you can just say anything you want to anyone with impunity.
Coffee__Addict · 1 points · Posted at 19:21:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Knowing 50% of a math course is not enough to go on to the next topic. Math builds on itself and we have a poor system for math education (in NA).
kinjinsan · 1 points · Posted at 19:21:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Questioning the amount of the effect man has on climate change does NOT make one a Climate Change Denier.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:21:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The opinions expressed and upvoted on Reddit only represent a VERY small percentage of the population.
CohibaNr1 · 1 points · Posted at 19:22:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How crypto is the next step in financial evolution.
AdolfJongUn · 1 points · Posted at 19:22:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yelling and cursing at your customer service rep isn’t going to help you. We know you’re unhappy it’s not some great mystery. If you’re bill went up because your credits came off let me work with you to find a solution don’t just scream for a supervisor because you think it’ll help. I will go much more out of my way to help a nice customer than a screaming one. I’ll break rules to help a nice customer who legitimately asks how my day is going and will laugh with me about whatever craziness is going on. If you come at screaming about what a fucking idiot I am and how my company is slime filled shit sack I’m gonna sit back let you bitch and then transfer you to loyalty so they can make the same offers I was trying to.
BrentonDraper · 1 points · Posted at 19:22:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
that on game of thrones, each episode doesn't start right when the last episode left off, sometimes months go by... I see the GoT fast travel memes all too often.
Carrotze · 1 points · Posted at 19:22:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Mathematics
pjnpjn · 1 points · Posted at 19:22:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How money works.
wile_e_chicken · 1 points · Posted at 19:22:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"News" does not present an accurate picture of the world. Think of it as native advertising, propaganda if you will, intended to sell the public on wars, medical procedures, conceal various cures, etc. Advertising does not end when the "commercials" stop. Edit: This extends to the online information sphere as well. This should come as no surprise, but a shocking percentage of "users" (Reddit, YouTube, and otherwise) are paid PR agents. Much of the voting is simply bots.
drteethsmayhem · 1 points · Posted at 19:22:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Basic finacial goals. Dont spend what you dont have or cant pay ASAP. Debt will bring you down eventually, live within your means.
AndroidDoctorr · 1 points · Posted at 19:22:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Evolution
Black Holes
Relativity
How to use contractions
When to use "whom"
How to use left turn lanes
Rudimentary logic
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:22:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
P-values, most scientists don't even understand them
AtlJayhawk · 1 points · Posted at 19:22:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That the redness in a steak isn't blood.
IAmMohit · 1 points · Posted at 19:22:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That life is not meant for running around. Relaxation and pausing is as much important.
Samrojas0 · 1 points · Posted at 19:22:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Depression
everno99 · 1 points · Posted at 19:22:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to use self-checkout at the grocery store.
CohibaVancouver · 1 points · Posted at 19:23:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Please place the item in the bagging area.
single-needle · 1 points · Posted at 19:22:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
that filming in public is legal and no one needs 'permission'
genmischief · 1 points · Posted at 19:22:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Hunting.
hehenno · 1 points · Posted at 19:22:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You don’t have to stand in line for an hour before boarding a Ryanair flight anymore, because boarding passes have pre-assigned seats (it’s been this way for years now)
quackerbot · 1 points · Posted at 19:22:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Blaming someone will not change the outcome.
warpg8 · 1 points · Posted at 19:22:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Socialism/communism. Most people associate it directly with China and Russia, and very few people actually understand the core principles that Marx, Trotsky, and Lenin were teaching. Very few people understand that economic policy isn't separable from social policy, and very few people (particularly liberals) understand that identity politics is fundamentally self-defeating when analyzed through a Marxist lens.
huiuiui · 1 points · Posted at 19:23:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Percentages. The other 20% are pretty good at it.
peeweeds · 1 points · Posted at 19:23:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Bitcoins and other very unreal currencies.
Shy_Girl_2014 · 1 points · Posted at 19:23:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How much water you should be consuming. And that drinking juice, lemonade, sweet tea, etc does not make up for drinking less water.
Darkmemento · 1 points · Posted at 19:23:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Bitcoin
caramba00 · 1 points · Posted at 19:23:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The difference between "you're" and "your"
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:23:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The economy going up or down has largely nothing to do with who is President at the time.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:23:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
BIKE LAAAAAANE!
YOUR IN THE BIKE LAAAAAAANE
GET OUT OF MY WAAAAAAAY
Swimmer117 · 1 points · Posted at 19:23:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That history does not exist in a vacuum and behind every major event in history is the result of a chain reaction of other events.
ViZeShadowZ · 1 points · Posted at 19:23:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
algebra.
hippystinx · 1 points · Posted at 19:23:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Humanity is heading towards a series of bloody conflicts, with casualties the likes this world has never seen.
Bobbafeck · 1 points · Posted at 19:24:56 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
You know, just because you support Trump you really don't need to repeat his phrases it makes you look like you can't think for yourself.
Thoughtswordsactions · 1 points · Posted at 19:23:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That we in the US Do not elect our president directly; instead we vote on who in the electoral college can place a vote representing that state's desire
Dapeep17 · 1 points · Posted at 19:23:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A religious person doesn't need to logically prove anything to themselves. They separate reality from divinity. Using logic to denounce religion or vice versa is impossible because they are unrelated
bohanker · 1 points · Posted at 19:23:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Percentages
LordCosmicguy · 1 points · Posted at 19:23:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"90% don't understand" posts are clickbait.
yoda_gone_crazy · 1 points · Posted at 19:23:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That you have one opinion, I have another. And, they both can be different. You don't have to kill me to have me accept yours, I'm happy with mine.
ScubaTank210 · 1 points · Posted at 19:23:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What the first amendment actually means.
katybee13 · 1 points · Posted at 19:23:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Thin ≠ fit.
senorswank · 1 points · Posted at 19:23:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The Republican party is not the party of the poor or middle class. And or Magnets.
WolvoSpiderman · 1 points · Posted at 19:24:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No means no.
YourmomgoestocolIege · 1 points · Posted at 19:24:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That it's going to take more than 15 minutes at the DOL/DMV. Calm down, you're not special.
helius33 · 1 points · Posted at 19:24:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The constitution!
ohnoitsivy · 1 points · Posted at 19:24:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Driving predictably is more important than being "polite".
aks102492 · 1 points · Posted at 19:24:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ordering food over the phone.
Joegussay · 1 points · Posted at 19:24:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The mythical gender pay gap
RightTrash · 1 points · Posted at 19:24:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Narcolepsy with or without Cataplexy.
squirtlekid · 1 points · Posted at 19:24:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The actions of an individual does not always represent the feelings of a group
Barnabas_Stinson17 · 1 points · Posted at 19:24:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Braking on a highway, or going under the speed limit in the left lane is incredibly dangerous
DrWho1970 · 1 points · Posted at 19:24:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Exponential growth.
hoodrathooochiemama · 1 points · Posted at 19:24:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What 90% means.
WeatherOarKnot · 1 points · Posted at 19:25:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The Earth is flat /s
Madterps · 1 points · Posted at 19:25:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That 3rd world countries are not responsible for your job losses, the people responsible are the CEOS and chairman of the boards of companies that are profit chasing that are responsible for the job losses. Don't blame Thailand, China, Vietnam, etc. for your manufacturing job losses, blame it on the capitalist/venturists who want to make a large profit.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:25:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Fractions
SaidMilk · 1 points · Posted at 19:25:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How yelling at someone because you're angry won't help you get your way.
thecretin · 1 points · Posted at 19:25:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That big game hunting actually helps African animals.
AskingClownQuestions · 1 points · Posted at 19:25:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The other side.
SPOOFE · 1 points · Posted at 19:25:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"Quantum" doesn't mean "small".
jewellovesNicki · 1 points · Posted at 19:25:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That All Animals have a right to live free. That no Human has the right to abuse, neglect, murder any Animal, ever.
Eddieisfiction · 1 points · Posted at 19:26:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Don't forget killing plants.
jewellovesNicki · 1 points · Posted at 19:58:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well... I guess I feel that killing a living, breathing, most of all sentient beings is wrong.
Eddieisfiction · 1 points · Posted at 20:01:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Plants live and breathe too. Get your damn murdering hands off of them.
jewellovesNicki · 1 points · Posted at 20:39:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Plants are not sentient. I'm not going to sit here and nit pick over plants vs. Animals. You want to kill and wear/eat Animals, go ahead
Eddieisfiction · 1 points · Posted at 22:39:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oh so since you identify with animals more, you think it's ok to kill plants. Well I identify with plants more. So screw you, guy.
jewellovesNicki · 1 points · Posted at 01:06:02 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Um, I'm a girl. That's fine if you want to call yourself a plant. All I pointed out is, is Animals are Sentient, plants are not. Animals want to live, plants don't physically have the capacity to think they want to live. I'm pretty much done with you, this is a moot point. You kill, eat and wear Animals, I don't.
Eddieisfiction · 1 points · Posted at 01:12:04 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Plants are better than animals. Get over it!
jewellovesNicki · 1 points · Posted at 03:10:36 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Whatever, you just want to argue. Why don't you find something more productive to do? This is now to the point of being boring.
Eddieisfiction · 1 points · Posted at 12:18:31 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
lol I was screwing with you the entire time. Come on man, you can't see that?
jewellovesNicki · 1 points · Posted at 13:24:51 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
No, you wouldn't believe how many people act like A. Holes when I even mention that I believe that All animals should have the right to live free from harm and death. I'm sorry, its just a really passionate topic for me. Sometimes I get really defensive because I hate All forms of animal abuse so much.
Eddieisfiction · 2 points · Posted at 15:48:26 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well sorry man, I thought my sarcasm was obvious. /s in the future then
jewellovesNicki · 1 points · Posted at 20:55:44 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Its all good! Like I said, I have gotten a shit ton of people who think I should not be so passionate about Animals! Thanks! 😄
olivescience · 1 points · Posted at 19:25:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's probably been mentioned, but...evolution. (1) Evolution does not happen to individuals, it happens to populations. (2) Evolution does not have a preset direction or "purpose". It is dictated by what traits work best for a species in a given environment. Random mutations in the gene pool can prove to be beneficial and increase the genetic fitness of an organism. (3) Genetic fitness/survival of the fitness does not equate with physical traits necessarily.
Oh, and lately I've been seeing...free speech. Jesus H. Christ. It's like free speech this free speech that...the concept of free speech is waaay more limited than people think it is.
fadownjoo · 1 points · Posted at 19:25:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Energy
kutlas · 1 points · Posted at 19:25:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean that I'm against you.
thefyfe · 1 points · Posted at 19:25:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Most people who use the word "ironic" really mean coincidence.
Bradley_Cougar · 1 points · Posted at 19:26:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
American Civics
Mrorogan · 1 points · Posted at 19:26:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Nothing is ever "free".
Iveabandonedmyboy · 1 points · Posted at 19:26:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That if you had any social awareness and kept boasting/trying to show off on fb or being passive agressive you'd realise it just makes you look like a tool.
Rosssauced · 1 points · Posted at 19:26:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Entertaining an idea does not mean you believe it.
To use Charlottesville as an example I sort of understand the road that led to the rally. A bunch of people that felt alienated have been rallied by white nationalist ideology.
I think it's moronic but I try to understand how it all happened. Sometimes I fail sometimes I succeed but I always try.
Ketameandreams · 1 points · Posted at 19:26:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to yield right of way in basic traffic situations
MithranArkanere · 1 points · Posted at 19:26:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Survey statistics.
Palatadotados · 1 points · Posted at 19:26:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Color temperature.
Fiendhunterbrand · 1 points · Posted at 19:26:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That the definition of racism doesn't not necessarily include systemic oppression.
thinkfast1982 · 1 points · Posted at 19:26:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Obviously the core concept, Lana.
Robster4911 · 1 points · Posted at 19:26:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That you actually can be racist to white people.
metzbower13 · 1 points · Posted at 19:26:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Pass and get out of the passing lane, I don't care how much over the speed limit you are going, if there is someone behind you wanting to go faster you are creating traffic.
commondandy96 · 1 points · Posted at 19:26:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Common sense
kerplunkerfish · 1 points · Posted at 19:26:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sound.
Seriously, Dunkirk is made less good by how it's mixed.
richertboe · 1 points · Posted at 19:26:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
String theory
chummypuddle08 · 1 points · Posted at 19:26:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
r/chiliadmystery
panacrane37 · 1 points · Posted at 19:26:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That not everyone who voted for the guy you didn't vote for is a racist.
BrianFantannaAction8 · 1 points · Posted at 19:26:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How the voting system and process ACTUALLY works in USA
hansgammel · 1 points · Posted at 19:26:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Creating software takes time
nikerbacher · 1 points · Posted at 19:26:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Food service in a busy restaurant. Yes it's easy to make your burger a nice medium in about 10 mins. No it's not at all easy to cook your burger and about 15 other all at different start times and temps the 3 salmon, 5 steaks, 2 chops and all that effing chicken, while at the same time trying to plate it all up in a manner good enough to feed your grandmother, all while the ticket machine is pumping away, your relief cook is hungover, the expo is freaking out and some server just dropped something for that table that came in 30 mins before you and now the rest of their food is fucked and dying because of whatever's all over the floor.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:27:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to drive. If the rules were actually followed and people paid attention, there would be way less traffic and accidents.
withbillmcneal · 1 points · Posted at 19:27:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How nonprofits work. I see people criticize organizations that host fundraisers and pay decent salaries to their staff. It's cliche, but you do have to spend money to make money. And why wouldn't you want to pay for the most qualified staff if it'll help your mission?
GovmentTookMaBaby · 1 points · Posted at 19:27:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Jet fuel don't melt nun uh'them steelin beams.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:27:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A hot dog is a sandwich. Period.
ezmac420 · 1 points · Posted at 19:27:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Who goes first at a stop sign
mockgame3129 · 1 points · Posted at 19:27:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Fractions
Take away the 90% who don't understand them at all, and you're left with 20% that still can't get them right consistently.
croolshooz · 1 points · Posted at 19:27:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Situational awareness. Many people does not has it.
IncognetoMagneto · 1 points · Posted at 19:27:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That there is a difference between school led prayer and your kid praying in school. I hear some older folks say things like "they took away prayer in school!"
Wrong. Your kids can pray in school if they wish. The administration just can't force them to pray.
DanTheMan9600 · 1 points · Posted at 19:27:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In many many cases, you get what you pay for. Not a majority, but in a surprising amount of things, you get what you pay for.
ChaaPapi · 1 points · Posted at 19:27:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Money
ChefChopNSlice · 1 points · Posted at 19:27:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
morals
chaostunes · 1 points · Posted at 19:28:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The offside rule
Type2Diabesity · 1 points · Posted at 19:28:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That a social life plus purpose and a good life is earned after becoming somebody, after pain, heartache, embarrassment and struggle.
inspektorkemp · 1 points · Posted at 19:28:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That someone's political views are indeed a reflection of their moral viewpoints - they aren't separate.
BooperDooperXD · 1 points · Posted at 19:28:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Men are discriminated against as well.
Goaheadownvoteme · 1 points · Posted at 19:28:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
when you hurt others you are also hurting yourself
cwlee · 1 points · Posted at 19:28:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A surplus of calorie intake and a deficit of calories burned means you gain weight.
Genetics, metabolism, and diet all play a role in weight gain, but overall.. don't just blame it on genetics and being big boned.
gloveisallyouneed · 1 points · Posted at 19:28:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That humans are animals.
And animals don't have "human emotions", but rather we have animal motions .... BECAUSE WE'RE ANIMALS!
FranksGun · 1 points · Posted at 19:28:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to properly use the word "comprise." In fact I think it's been used improperly so often that it's now acceptable to just use it incorrectly - describing things as "comprised of."
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:28:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Money. end of story
ImMrMitchell · 1 points · Posted at 19:28:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Statistics and probability.
minibabybuu · 1 points · Posted at 19:28:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
their left from their right... "take a left at the redlight" as they point right
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:28:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Irony. Especially you alanis morisette!
areuavinagigglem8 · 1 points · Posted at 19:28:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Rules of traffic.
ChipChamp · 1 points · Posted at 19:28:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"No Right on Red" signs...
Xeroen · 1 points · Posted at 19:28:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Turn indicators and how to use them.
ericluster · 1 points · Posted at 19:28:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Animation takes a long time to finish.
Beach_Bomb · 1 points · Posted at 19:28:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Stay on the fucking payload
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:28:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What 30% off the ticketed price is
valee_mr · 1 points · Posted at 19:28:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Cardio does not make you lose weight, it only helps building resistance.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:29:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Conservatives are not Nazis, but Nazis are fucking Nazis and calling them what they are isn't sensationalization when they're literally waving Nazi flags. Based on the fact that every story I've seen about the shit in Charlottesville has a million commenters saying that you can't just call every gathering of white conservatives a Nazi rally. Mitch McConnell is a white conservative, and not one that I particularly like. He is not a Nazi. There is a line, and there are too many fucking people on the wrong side of it.
Bleecampbell · 1 points · Posted at 19:29:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When to go at a 4 way stop. Also that oxygen isn't flammable holy fuck.
nightpain69 · 1 points · Posted at 19:29:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Depression/pretty much every mental illness ever.
Num8er5 · 1 points · Posted at 19:29:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Proper usage of there, they're and their
Uvile · 1 points · Posted at 19:29:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When there's a two lane highway (in the US) the right lane is for traveling, and the left lane is for overtaking, NOT MORE TRAVEL.
ElagabalusRex · 1 points · Posted at 19:29:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Dangerous driving usually just brings you to a red light sooner.
watch7maker · 1 points · Posted at 19:29:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Driving like an asshole because traffic sucks makes more traffic. Other people see you driving like an asshole and think it's okay. Then next time, they're in front of you causing you to be in traffic. And the cycle continues.
xavier_a · 1 points · Posted at 19:29:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Basic math.
lootingyourfridge · 1 points · Posted at 19:29:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That the universe doesn't remember.
VigilantYouth · 1 points · Posted at 19:29:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
THAT WHITE AND BLACK SKIN ARE NOT DESTINATIONS!!!
teammysticCLE · 1 points · Posted at 19:29:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
RNG
djtopgun · 1 points · Posted at 19:29:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Marketing.
Walkin_mn · 1 points · Posted at 19:29:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That doing a lot of exercise after eating a lot of pizza (constantly) doesn't block the pizza and all of the sudden you're healthy.
x3nodox · 1 points · Posted at 19:29:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Everything is fucking complicated. "Why don't we just switch to single payer healthcare?", "Why don't all cars have that design if it's so good?", "Why can't you just make a way faster computer now if you're going to do it in 2 years anyway?"
Cause it's hard. It's hard for a lot of reasons. The process of doing anything meaningful is hard. The implications in near and long term can be dramatically different for dramatically different reasons that are hugely affected by finicky little details.
If you think you have the solution to a big world problem and you haven't spent at least 5 full years really thinking about it, you don't. At all. Because shit is complicated and no one seems to appreciate that.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:29:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How King Crimson works! It's so easy! Diavolo sees 10 seconds into the future, then everyone essentially loses consciousness and performs the actions Diavolo saw they were going to do. Diavolo can move freely during this time however. This is why actions seem to have no cause.
Alex_Pike · 1 points · Posted at 19:29:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just because I asked a question at the end of my reddit comment doesn't mean I'm disagreeing with you.
generationslash · 1 points · Posted at 19:29:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Donald Trump
MortgageJoey · 1 points · Posted at 19:29:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Statistics
ForumPointsRdumb · 1 points · Posted at 19:30:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That it takes everyone to keep things clean. Just because you didn't make the mess, doesn't mean you don't have to clean it up. The person who left it there obviously isn't going to clean that shit up, and if no one picks it up it will sit there on the side of the rode or trail or what have you and look gross.
xanaxhelps · 1 points · Posted at 19:30:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That if you make more money (in the US) you pay more income tax on the part of your money over the previous limit, not on all the money. The brackets apply to each chunk of income that fits into that bucket.
slaytherabbit · 1 points · Posted at 19:30:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Why we have voter registration
plainasplaid · 1 points · Posted at 19:30:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The proper use of the word irony
I_Keep_Faith · 1 points · Posted at 19:30:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What a web developer actually does. Explaining the difference between a designer & developer and how the code behind a website works to my parents and friends is a nightmare.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:30:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Life.
Wiffle_Hammer · 1 points · Posted at 19:30:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Compound interest.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:30:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you want something done do it yourself
MemeMeUpScotty · 1 points · Posted at 19:30:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That something that's a tax write off doesn't become "free." It reduces your taxable gross income.
A lot of people buy something because they can write it off, and they think they are getting it free.
puksgame · 1 points · Posted at 19:30:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Communism, socialism in general.
King-of-the-xroads · 1 points · Posted at 19:30:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm not locked in here with you. YOU'RE LOCKED IN HERE WITH ME.
MilesEisley · 1 points · Posted at 19:30:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Being left handed.
Thelastonein · 2 points · Posted at 19:31:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yup. This is the best thing. Anyone who's left handed hates the question "Oh your left handed?" From people you've known for years a
ebolalunch · 2 points · Posted at 19:40:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No joke, I had someone ask me if I could collect disability for being left handed and they were completely serious.
mkhnghn · 1 points · Posted at 19:31:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to understand basic statistics. Interpreting aggregate data, averages etc.
Minaro_ · 1 points · Posted at 19:31:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Quantum physics. Does anyone actually understand it?
fergs_uk · 1 points · Posted at 19:31:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The word bigot
meyecall · 1 points · Posted at 19:31:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Probably e or le
Eazyyy · 1 points · Posted at 19:31:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That because you thought of something, or think you ‘figured’ something out, doesn’t mean it’s true. You can be utterly convinced and still be wrong.
Tenshi2369 · 1 points · Posted at 19:31:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you're gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough.
vbfronkis · 1 points · Posted at 19:31:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Who has the right of way while driving.
I loved driving in Germany so hard. American drivers are awful.
teebrownies · 1 points · Posted at 19:31:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Politics.
kauefr · 1 points · Posted at 19:31:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Statistics.
Darneus · 1 points · Posted at 19:31:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Fundamental basics about law. It always surprises me how loud people can be about change and then not realize how hard it is to actually make that change from a legal standpoint.
ActualButt · 1 points · Posted at 19:31:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That there is no letter 'a' in the past tense of the verb "to lead". It's "led". "Lead" is a metal. "Led" is the past tense of "lead". Please get that fucking straight.
Wolfenshire12 · 1 points · Posted at 19:31:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Winning debates doesn't mean you're right. Askreddit moderators are shit
ebolalunch · 1 points · Posted at 19:37:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes it does.
Wolfenshire12 · 1 points · Posted at 19:55:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No it doesn't it just means you're good at debating or the person you're debating with isn't good at arguing.
ebolalunch · 1 points · Posted at 01:55:24 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes it does! (I'm trying to win and be right! )
Clamps187 · 1 points · Posted at 19:32:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Slower traffic keep right
ThagomizerDildo · 1 points · Posted at 19:32:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Compound interest. Saving even just $50 a month in a Roth IRA for 30 years will benefit you greatly once you reach retirement age.
anthropoidz · 1 points · Posted at 19:32:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There is no gender wage gap.
FlyingSpaceWaffle · 1 points · Posted at 19:32:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Deductibles. You get insurance on something. Your car, your health, your cell phone. You pay a deductible when something happens. Don't complain about paying $125 because you shattered your phone screen when if you didn't have insurance it would be $800 for a new phone.
downd00t · 1 points · Posted at 19:32:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
the government is not your friend
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:32:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How encryption works on the internet. I've had actual computer programmers tell me about how it's worthless because internet service providers can "just use the keys you send" after they log them over the wire.
ss79 · 1 points · Posted at 19:32:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Thermostats. Turning them down doesn't make it get cold faster. It simply means it will keep getting colder and colder until it is uncomfortable. It works the same when you raise them.
spensaur · 1 points · Posted at 19:32:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The theory of evolution. It doesn't postulate that Species B evolved from Species A, but that Species B and Species A descended from the same COMMON ANCESTOR.
rokd · 1 points · Posted at 19:32:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It takes less time to do things the right way, then to do that thing wrong and have to fix it.
ebolalunch · 0 points · Posted at 19:35:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Soooo, like using "than" and "then" correctly?
meatwagondriver · 1 points · Posted at 19:32:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The abuse of 911 systems. People call ambulances for everything from needing prescriptions to back pain that's been constant for their entire life.
tyuqwe · 1 points · Posted at 19:32:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
iCloud
RandomChance · 1 points · Posted at 19:33:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
90% of everything outside their very specific areas of interest or work. It is a big big world out there and the more we learn the more complex we find it to be. We are all specialists now - if you don't know that your ignorant of 99% of what there is to know, than that means your just a hair more ignorant those cursed to know exactly how much they don't know and will never be able to learn.
TitusTheWolf · 1 points · Posted at 19:33:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The Cloud. I work in IT and most people in the industry have a very fuzzy understanding.
a_shitty_novelty · 1 points · Posted at 19:33:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
just like how someone who's overweight doesn't wanna hear that you think they're overweight, someone who's underweight also doesn't wanna hear that you think they're underweight. MIND BOGGLING! i know
5elements · 1 points · Posted at 19:33:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Healthcare
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:33:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just hit the Windows key and type out the name to access your shit. I work a computer help desk, and the program isn't gone just because you can't find the shortcut anymore.
Pucksy · 1 points · Posted at 19:33:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm waayy too late, but definitely thermostats.. Setting the cars climate control very cold does not make it comfortable faster.
thenotsobeardedone · 1 points · Posted at 19:33:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That I just want to be alone.
cordobes38 · 1 points · Posted at 19:33:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
reddit?
TheMaskedKid · 1 points · Posted at 19:33:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The button on the front of the computer turns on the screen, the button on the gray rectangle turns on the computer.
TheEscuelas · 1 points · Posted at 19:33:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Marginal tax brackets
KingJames19 · 1 points · Posted at 19:33:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Politics is a farce
Paulmcdanielson · 1 points · Posted at 19:33:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Papal infallibility. 99 % of people have it wrong. It basically means when the bishops and the Pope agree on a church teaching and say it is right, than the church follows that teaching.
PetterDK · 1 points · Posted at 19:33:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Boarding an airplane.
Over the PA: "Now boarding only passengers seated at row 1-4"
Everyone: Stands up to board the plane
Me: "sigh..."
Levojego · 1 points · Posted at 19:33:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to flick the lever that starts the turn signal...
KeybladeSpirit · 1 points · Posted at 19:33:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That there is no such thing as objectively good. Consensus is not the same as fact.
Wasteland_Doc · 1 points · Posted at 19:33:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Companies are in business to make money. Just because a product or service has a high margin does not mean the company is evil.
Also, any company stating they cut out the middle man to save you money has a higher margin and a cheaper made product.
fuelforire · 1 points · Posted at 19:33:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The difference between Gender and Biological sex.
--Sko-- · 1 points · Posted at 19:34:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The proper way to tie their shoes so the laces look good and don't come untied.
https://www.fieggen.com/shoelace/
erranw · 1 points · Posted at 19:34:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
While driving you notice lanes merging ahead due to an accident, construction, etc.... You're in the lane that is ending. You must drive all the way to the merge point then zipper in. Anything else is just chaos.
i_forgot_my_sn_again · 1 points · Posted at 20:03:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Merger point doesn't mean wait until the absolute last sec though
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:34:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Most people have a terrible understanding of fallacious logic. It does help a lot to see through arguments that don't make sense or are plain bullshit and it helps to explain how/why they're wrong.
Zillerz3 · 1 points · Posted at 19:34:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Rotations #rocketleague
lametown_poopypants · 1 points · Posted at 19:34:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Correlation is not causation
token-black-dude · 1 points · Posted at 19:34:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Escalators are stairs. You can walk.
alaorath · 1 points · Posted at 19:34:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Statistical Probability.
Lately, applies to mobile games with tokens/chests/artifacts...
No, Mr. ForumRanter, opening 50 tokens and not getting the 1 in 50 item does not mean that the game is "broken".
nkiki2000 · 1 points · Posted at 19:34:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How computers work
JerechoEcho · 1 points · Posted at 19:34:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
God doesn't watch you poop.
misterwizzard · 1 points · Posted at 19:34:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Your turn signals do not provide right-of-way, they indicate your intentions.
Nossie · 1 points · Posted at 19:34:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Both sides have extremism
OldManHadTooMuchWine · 1 points · Posted at 19:35:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
People on political left and right have exactly the same psychology, types of personalities, attitudes; political beliefs are largely a function of where you grew up and our tendency to accept/reject the society around you. The far left and far right have more common with one another than they do the moderates on their own side.
drewp317 · 1 points · Posted at 19:35:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That the left lane is for passing. Stop driving slow in it. Why does everyone do this?!
alltim · 1 points · Posted at 19:35:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Accelerating technological change. Consider the difference between driving at a constant speed and driving with the gas pedal pushed all the way to the floor and keeping it there. Many forms of technology have relatively short times required to double the level of change. For example, in the US last year the total solar energy capacity doubled in a single year. So, it only took one year to raise the total level as much as the total of all of the preceding decades since the invention of the solar cell in 1941. Moreover, the total solar capacity will double again over the next year and continue to double year after year in the foreseeable future. We see similar accelerating changes in a wide array of technologies including 3D printing, robotics, realistic animation and artificial intelligence, to name a few of the more significant fields of technologies destined to alter our future.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:35:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A progressive tax system. I use to be in public accounting and would have people tell me they stopped working for the year because they think if they make $1 then they will go into the next tax bracket and all their earning would be taxed the new level's percentage.
dashdanw · 1 points · Posted at 19:35:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The difference between radiation and radioactivity.
Pust_is_a_soletaken · 1 points · Posted at 19:35:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Most people considered "blind" actually have some vision. Some, more than you'd think.
unanimouslydefiant · 1 points · Posted at 19:35:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Driving
FapLeft · 1 points · Posted at 19:35:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What the 10% want.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:35:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That the iron in their blood was forged by the Sun,
And that they'll become part of the Sun one day.
pofeem14 · 1 points · Posted at 19:35:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That eggshell is easier to remove with an eggshell
Gary32790 · 1 points · Posted at 19:35:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
quantum physics
cited · 1 points · Posted at 19:36:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Electricity and the electrical grid.
N5tp4nts · 1 points · Posted at 19:36:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The bill of rights.
danikov · 1 points · Posted at 19:36:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Quantum entanglement.
Don't make me pretend to understand it fully. I do know that it's more correlation than causation, which means that it kills dead all the sci-fi that tries to use it as a substrate for FTL communication (although it is viable for encryption), but the details are difficult for career physicists to wrestle with, let alone your average person.
btao · 1 points · Posted at 19:54:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It takes some serious math-fu to even grasp the theory behind it all, but I'd wager most only get the empirical side of what can be demonstrated. Truly one of the greatest phenomenons out there.
MagnificentCat · 1 points · Posted at 19:36:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Chinese
KaiserPhil · 1 points · Posted at 19:36:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The relationship between sample size, population size, and margin of error.
Fedora_Tipp3r · 1 points · Posted at 19:36:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The government has NEVER been on your side.
Cyberneticist_ · 1 points · Posted at 19:36:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What chandler did for a living. That goes for 90's people too, rather than 90% :-)
dusmeyedin · 1 points · Posted at 19:36:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to sword fence against a left handed fencer.
This is a very common phenomenon in fencing: most people are right handed, so they typically learn how to fence against a right handed opponent.
When a left handed opponent shows up, suddenly the enemy's sword is on the wrong side and it's very confusing.
Funnily enough, this problem often appears for lefties as well, who (for much the same reason) usually learn to fence against right handers and then are completely confused upon meeting a fellow southpaw.
zepplin104 · 1 points · Posted at 19:36:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Prank videos and 'pranks gone wrong' are pretty much all BS but still people will sit there sharing, retweeting going 'oh my gahhd'. Im glad that drivvel doesn't make an appearance on reddit too often
Kalepsis · 1 points · Posted at 19:36:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The word "its" (no apostrophe) is possessive. Example: "The elephant lifted its foot."
The word "it's" (with an apostrophe) is a contraction of "it is". Example: "It's great to see an elephant crush a poacher's head."
PookiBear · 1 points · Posted at 19:36:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
pacifism only works because other people are protecting you
wivolin · 1 points · Posted at 19:36:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That we are all equally as much humans.
lendergle · 1 points · Posted at 19:36:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How HOAs work, who they're meant to benefit (hint: not homeowners), who they actually benefit (hint: again, not homeowners), how they are formed & dissolved, what rights (not many) and obligations (too many) they give homeowners and other parties (what- you didn't know there were other parties involved?), and so on.
All you ever see are completely uninformed people who either say "HOAs are the devil" or "HOAs are great." Absolutely no understanding of the principles and legalities involved. Luckily, there are lots of people willing to take advantage of both kinds of idiots' willful ignorance.
Four hours with google and a trip to your local library, followed by looking up the CC&Rs on your property's deed will fucking open your eyes, man. The information is trivially easy to find, yet people don't seem to want it.
But hey, HOAs are the devil. Or the greatest thing ever. I guess.
aeryk71 · 1 points · Posted at 19:36:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The Universe.
GetSpekz58 · 1 points · Posted at 19:36:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No means no.
crobi2013 · 1 points · Posted at 19:36:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Human rights....
falsealarmm · 1 points · Posted at 19:36:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
FB, Instagram, Pinterest....all that shit is free because YOU are the product.
painperdu · 1 points · Posted at 19:36:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
More than 90% of the population doesn't understand how porous the world really is.
yunohavenameiwant · 1 points · Posted at 19:36:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
GMO's
Whisker_dan · 1 points · Posted at 19:36:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to re-fold/hang a shirt in a store after looking at it... I hate all of you.
xXxwiskersxXx · 1 points · Posted at 19:36:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That there is no us and them. Race, sexualizing, ethnicity... They are all just people like you who just want to live and be happy
Poxington · 1 points · Posted at 19:36:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That "lose" and "loose" are NOT synonymous.
tsimmons1996 · 1 points · Posted at 19:37:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Turn signals
TrutH512 · 1 points · Posted at 19:37:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The 3 day period of transferring money from your savings to your checkings...
MsIris · 1 points · Posted at 19:37:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not to pull out in front of big trucks because they can't stop like people in cars.
entropizer · 1 points · Posted at 19:37:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
http://imgur.com/a/Dl9xY
DrBillios · 1 points · Posted at 19:37:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Late to the party here, but every time I hear somebody say "such and such food (usually meat) has ANTIBIOTICS in it", a part of me dies on the inside.
Nothing you buy at the grocery store has antibiotics in it, unless you're buying antibiotics. All animals, even those fed antibiotics during their lives, are required to go through a withdrawal period before butchering, so that the antibiotic residue can leave their body. It is highly illegal to sell antibiotic tainted food, and everything gets tested for it--usually more than once. If there was any remote trace of antibiotic found in the product, it would be destroyed, the producer could face serious penalties, and it would never come close to a grocery store shelf.
Even though the regular feeding of antibiotics to animals has become a HUGE problem with antibiotic resistance/superbugs, nothing you eat has any trace of antibiotics in it (unless you bought it directly from a very sketchy source).
its_me_ask · 1 points · Posted at 19:37:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Einstein can't come up with so many quotes.
Jaredk3 · 1 points · Posted at 19:37:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Percent yield calculations. As a TA, my students always get those wrong
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:37:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"How I can I just kill a man"
Rob1150 · 1 points · Posted at 19:50:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Take your upvote, now get out.
_memelorddotjpeg_ · 1 points · Posted at 19:37:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
common core
lifesabash · 1 points · Posted at 19:37:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Personal finances
OpDickSledge · 1 points · Posted at 19:37:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You cannot win arguments on the internet
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:37:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That we've got Ozil
hostilecarrot · 1 points · Posted at 19:37:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Separation of Church and State.
Evisrayle · 1 points · Posted at 19:37:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Try arguing that these people aren't being hateful — they're just being selfish.
I currently, through a twist of fate, live about two hours from where I grew up. The area I live in, now, we colloquially refer to as "satan's taint". When people learn I grew up near here, they frequently ask, "what did you think of this place before you moved here?" which I invariably answer with "I didn't think of this place before I moved here".
The people lobbying for tax cuts don't necessarily hate the poor. They probably just don't care. The people against the ACA don't necessarily hate the people that will die without medical attention. They probably just don't care. The people wanting stronger immigration control don't necessarily hate brown people. They probably just don't care.
And when your friends as how anyone could not care, well. That's sort of what selfishness is, mate. Everyone's some level of selfish. I'm typing on Reddit right now when, really, I ought to be actively working in AI research or doing everything in my power to bring about social reform. I'm being lazy, which is selfish.
Just consider for a moment that some people are more selfish than you (or less so, and they ask questions like "how can you eat meat?"). They have different values.
Wyrdly · 1 points · Posted at 19:37:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to drive
grabA_2nd · 1 points · Posted at 19:38:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Science. More specifically the scientific method.
If you're thinking "that's bullshit I totally know what science is" - take a swing at what a null hypothesis is and why it's inherent to the scientific method.
No googling.
che_sac · 1 points · Posted at 19:38:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Rocket Science
halfxdead · 1 points · Posted at 19:38:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A store's return policy?
kingbb15 · 1 points · Posted at 19:38:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Other people.
nieburhlung · 1 points · Posted at 19:38:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Relativity.
XredXskyX · 1 points · Posted at 19:38:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just because there IS a back room in the store, doesn't mean there is more of the item you're looking for back there. At least 75% of what's even in the store is already on shelves.
RanmaSanta · 1 points · Posted at 19:38:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This question
The_Flapjack_Kid · 1 points · Posted at 19:38:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The Grateful Dead
JohnnyRhino · 1 points · Posted at 19:39:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
or Phish
Ritzyb · 1 points · Posted at 19:38:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Every house is built the same. WRONG! As a custom framing carpenter, and business owner, I can tell you this is not the case.
Building to code does not dictate if a home is built right, it also doesn't stop drywall from cracking, air from leaking through your walls, walls being straight, or rooms (kitchens/bathrooms) to be built right.
People always whine that new houses aren't built like they used to be. This is correct: they have much more engineering and thought put into design, however the wrong builder can wreck any plan.
Also: If your builder builds more then 50 homes a year, be very careful. They almost never have a real relationship with any of there trades, they pick the cheapest guys every time, and cut costs to the point of guys having no choice but to build garbage to pay rent.
You get what you pay for, and if it's $30,000 cheaper then another builder find out why! Most have things in the fine print that would blow your mind.
Trace_Wylie · 1 points · Posted at 19:38:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Getting in the appropriate highway lane early when there is roadwork would alleviate so much logjam of people cutting each other off...
ALchroniKOHOLIC · 1 points · Posted at 19:38:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Life
Sotoned · 1 points · Posted at 19:39:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Eating super makes you fat. Not eating fat.
Rob1150 · 1 points · Posted at 19:48:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Whut?
chazthewolf · 1 points · Posted at 19:39:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Rationality
MarvelAtTheSky · 1 points · Posted at 19:39:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The majority of life is SEARCH and discovery! The whole point of life is that it's not easy, convenient or fast but that one must risk, invest time, fail and keep trying or otherwise you might as well be dead.
InvaderGiroro · 1 points · Posted at 19:39:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The meaning of life.
GregTheMad · 1 points · Posted at 19:39:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just calling something "evil" doesn't make it go away.
coinsp3nder · 1 points · Posted at 19:39:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When to say sarcastic and not ironic..
tabrin · 1 points · Posted at 19:39:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Astrophysics. I'll assume there's 90% of us who don't get it.
RadiantReborn · 1 points · Posted at 19:39:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The definition of a medical emergency. 90% of visits to the ER departments all over the world are things that could be managed in a scheduled medical consult. Its a waste of resources, its not cost effective to the patient or the medical staff, and generates a huge overload to ER departments using up resources that could be directed to actual medical emergencies.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:39:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Money can't buy knives.
TimidTimmyTurner · 1 points · Posted at 19:39:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That working a retail job is much harder than it is perceived to be. Examples: working at Starbucks, Jack in the box, or especially drive-thru's.
jei_m · 1 points · Posted at 19:39:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Quantum mechanics
Twiztidicon666 · 1 points · Posted at 19:39:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"Don't be stupid, stupid."
Old-wolf1928 · 1 points · Posted at 19:40:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Communism/socialism has never and will never work!
PouredLead · 1 points · Posted at 19:44:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
China (yeah those folks who own half of everything in your country) would like a word with you. Also, look up who made Trump your president.
Old-wolf1928 · 1 points · Posted at 20:15:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The average Chinese Person would disagree- Americans elected Trump! Not the russians or Chinese like all the airheads seem to think.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 21:03:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Old-wolf1928 · 1 points · Posted at 21:32:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Blah,blah,blah! Ive heard the same kind of crap for 50 + Years.
PouredLead · 1 points · Posted at 21:36:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
that should tell you something but your genes do not cooperate it seems.
tagpro_sphear · 1 points · Posted at 19:40:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There aren't "racist" people and "non-racist" people. Practically everyone is racist in some way.
PouredLead · 1 points · Posted at 19:42:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But it is only the fucked up few who take such instincts and turn them into shit. Quit over generalizing.
erome · 1 points · Posted at 19:40:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How hypocrisy works
RobNas · 1 points · Posted at 19:40:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Math
PandaKing550 · 1 points · Posted at 19:40:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Difference between effect and affect
dragspeed · 1 points · Posted at 19:40:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Statistics
gerryn · 1 points · Posted at 19:40:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What the remaining 10% are saying...
NickelFish · 1 points · Posted at 19:40:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Statistics. The other 20% seem to know what it is.
smilingkevin · 1 points · Posted at 19:40:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
People aren't divided into binary states of "on my side" and "irredeemable political monsters."
Kaos1382 · 1 points · Posted at 19:40:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You could save 15% or more on car insurance by switching to Geico.
harlows_monkeys · 1 points · Posted at 19:40:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That if the average of some sample is bigger than the average of some other sample, that doesn't mean every item in the first sample is bigger than every item in the second sample.
To see vast numbers of people not understanding this, just look at conservative writings on climate change and liberal writings on the Google diversity memo.
kindarusty · 1 points · Posted at 19:40:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The correct uses for 911.
lenatno · 1 points · Posted at 19:40:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Wearing deodorant before hitting the gym
extremepants · 1 points · Posted at 19:41:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Logic. People seem to believe because they have conviction and unwavering belief in something that it makes them right. That's not how that works but good luck telling them that.
Averysweetpotato · 1 points · Posted at 19:41:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Even if there is a God (or Gods) they don't seem to give a fuck about us.
DrunkenGolfer · 1 points · Posted at 19:41:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Thermostats. Setting the AC to 64 (16C) does not make your house colder faster. Similarly, setting your thermostat to 80 (25C) does not warm your house any faster. Both just mean you are going to waste energy until you become uncomfortable.
k_richards · 1 points · Posted at 19:41:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Proper procedure at a 4-way stop. You got there 5 seconds before me, bud! GO! No, stop waving me on. Just GO!
DuckInTheMud · 1 points · Posted at 19:41:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Your name
TiredNotTired · 1 points · Posted at 19:41:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Logic.
Strikerj94 · 1 points · Posted at 19:41:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to speak into a microphone.
MusicalMastermind · 1 points · Posted at 19:41:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Free speech is protected in America no matter how heinous it is.
From neo-nazis to antifa, what they say is protected. What they do however should have them labeled terrorists.
bufftart · 1 points · Posted at 19:41:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Money
arcticanomaly · 1 points · Posted at 19:41:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to drive.
greenfox00 · 1 points · Posted at 19:41:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Tax brackets.
drolgin · 1 points · Posted at 19:41:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Compound interest. Hi, housing bubble. Hi, short term loans. Hi, people living so far beyond their means it's not even funny.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:41:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
reports by weather men/ladies... when they say it's a 60% chance of rain that means that 60% of their viewing area will likely experience the phenomenon we call weather, not that it is 60% likely to rain on you...
bangisenigma · 1 points · Posted at 19:41:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Paying attention to where they walk instead of their phone
AmericaNeedsMe · 1 points · Posted at 19:41:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Violence
maailmanpaskinnalle · 1 points · Posted at 19:41:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Twin Peaks: The Return
bennyfresh7 · 1 points · Posted at 19:42:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's it's "definitely" not "defiantly".
DragonHunting · 1 points · Posted at 19:42:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you don't get on the payload, we're not gonna win....
germandatadude · 1 points · Posted at 19:42:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Rotten Tomatoes
Razbonez · 1 points · Posted at 19:42:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Logic. How to think.
WarlockAgent · 1 points · Posted at 19:42:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The difference between your and you're; there, their and there; and to, two, and too.
Gimgack · 1 points · Posted at 19:42:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This thing, on the left side of your steering wheel. It's called a FUCKING BLINKER. Florida drivers suck.
revere2323 · 1 points · Posted at 19:42:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That freedom of speech only protects you from the government interceding on what you say. Any individual or corporation can totally ask you to stop speaking, fire you for what you say, kick you off their premises, etc
Thunderpats · 1 points · Posted at 19:42:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That being unique wont make you irreplaceable .
tombflorist · 1 points · Posted at 19:42:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Interest. If you miss a payment and/or are late then interest starts accruing daily until the balance you were supposed to pay and the balance ahead of it are paid off. Usually if you're late and have a good payment history then someone can waive the late fee and suppress interest so it stops accruing.
BannedV2 · 1 points · Posted at 19:42:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How much of a blatant fucking shithole apple products are
RockSmashEveryThing · 1 points · Posted at 19:44:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
replace apple products with your username.
SomeRandomBlogger · 1 points · Posted at 19:53:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
RockSmashEveryThing · 1 points · Posted at 20:01:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I hate you!
Whawhawah · 1 points · Posted at 20:02:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Because security actually sucks, right? Also, I just love giving my personal information away to companies that want to sell me something.
BannedV2 · 1 points · Posted at 20:02:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm not exactly sure what you're talking about
Whawhawah · 1 points · Posted at 22:04:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When you buy an iDevice, you're not automatically giving them your data to use how they want. Apple has given us reason to believe they aren't interested in giving their users' data to third parties. They've also refused to assist the government in retrieving user data from their devices.
That's what I mean.
jerwrig · 1 points · Posted at 19:42:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you make money, you're going to pay some taxes. There's no magical deduction to keep you from paying something!
MilithDNB · 1 points · Posted at 19:42:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Politics.
NTorsky · 1 points · Posted at 19:42:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Turning left.
ChuckFiasco · 1 points · Posted at 19:42:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yield signs on the road.
BuckFurke · 1 points · Posted at 19:42:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
90% of everything.
13pixel22 · 1 points · Posted at 19:42:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The clutch thing beside the break
Din_Den · 1 points · Posted at 19:42:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to properly use a fucking turn signal. You are supposed to use it approximately 2-3 seconds before braking, so as to give warning to someone who may be behind you that you are about to turn. It is not to be used AS YOU ARE TURNING. It offers no purpose if it is being used too late.
fitforfood · 1 points · Posted at 19:43:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Bitcoin
Memphetic · 1 points · Posted at 19:43:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Calculus.
Flukyfred · 1 points · Posted at 19:43:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Percentages
nevercolour · 1 points · Posted at 19:43:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
how to drive
ehpickphaiel · 1 points · Posted at 19:43:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That the left lane in a highway is for "passing" not for "cruising at the speed limit"
bloodnickel · 1 points · Posted at 19:43:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Getting into investing, and I would have to say...
options
JoeZMar · 1 points · Posted at 19:43:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"Computers"
shinyvape · 1 points · Posted at 19:43:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Empathy
frothyundergarments · 1 points · Posted at 19:43:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You DO NOT STOP when merging onto a new road in a continuous lane.
Zolome1977 · 2 points · Posted at 19:45:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'd say 98% of people don't know that.
frothyundergarments · 1 points · Posted at 19:48:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is my commute, every damn day. Stuck on the highway off-ramp for 10 minutes because the fools at the bottom don't understand the massive continuous lane sign and wait to merge onto the busy street, with a wide open lane directly in front of them.
symbioticrebellion · 1 points · Posted at 19:43:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Insurance
Fmy925 · 1 points · Posted at 19:43:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Using your blinker to change lanes
the_mighty_moon_worm · 1 points · Posted at 19:43:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Grocery carts should be driven exactly like cars. Follow the same goddamn rules.
Don't pull out into traffic, don't drive to the left when there's only enough room for two lanes, and when there's four (like at the front of the store) its just like the interstate. the lane to the left is for passing.
You wouldn't stop to talk to your friends in the middle of a highway, you wouldn't pull a u turn in the middle of the road, and you wouldn't drive in oncoming traffic, so stop doing it at the grocery store for fucks sake.
CommunistCorgi · 1 points · Posted at 19:43:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Free speech is feee speech even if you disagree with it.
dgm42 · 1 points · Posted at 19:48:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes. But free speech does not include the right to lie.
ya_motha_93 · 1 points · Posted at 19:43:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Reading people's body language and general tone.
Example: Janet won't stop talking about her grandfather's uncle's cousin who just took an 2lb shit and had to get his rectum stitched back together but you've been inching closer and closer to the door for the past 30 minutes trying not to be rude.
CurlyNipples · 1 points · Posted at 19:44:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Use the Shift key. Not Caps Lock.
Sterling_Drake · 1 points · Posted at 19:44:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Traffic circles
whitepawn23 · 1 points · Posted at 19:44:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
CPR. It is not magic, though TV and movies would have you believe otherwise.
Pulling someone back from the dead and having them stay with us, even more so, without brain damage, heart damage, and/or broken ribs is remarkable...because it's NOT the norm.
And drowning. Yes, there is absolutely a higher probability of pulling someone back from death with CPR, but the 2-10minute rules still applies. Unless you see them drown and pull them out very quickly, expect brain damage.
nevertellen · 1 points · Posted at 19:44:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Using turn signals in a car.
the47 · 1 points · Posted at 19:44:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
climate change
Mayinator · 1 points · Posted at 19:44:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Thinking is done with the brain, not the heart.
_the_raven_ · 1 points · Posted at 19:44:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Swiping iPhone apps out of the multitasking tray will not give your phone superpowers or extra battery life or prevent the apps from running in the background.
whatsNAname123 · 1 points · Posted at 19:44:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
We are way more in control of our lives than we like to think.
captainbignips · 1 points · Posted at 19:45:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Usually percentages, I'm happy to be in the other 15%
Smoking_Hot_BBQ · 1 points · Posted at 19:45:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Getting less than recommended hours of sleep is not a good thing, and you should not brag about it, especially if you're underage.
itsthatguy1991 · 1 points · Posted at 19:45:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The definition of "ignorant".
maroger · 1 points · Posted at 19:45:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to take control of their own health. Recently went to a large music festival and 99.9% of the offerings were fat-laden fried junk and beer. The only thing that was close to healthy was bottled water. Also endlessly hearing relatives and friends complain about the side effects of drugs given to them with little explanation- yet they freely take them without questioning the doctor or- at the very least- getting a second opinion.
excruciatingminutia · 1 points · Posted at 19:45:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When to be silent.
Juviltoidfu · 1 points · Posted at 19:45:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Math.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:45:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How distribution rights work from country to country.
1LostInSpaceAgain · 1 points · Posted at 19:45:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Turn signals.
JudgeRightly · 1 points · Posted at 19:45:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Pulling out in front of/changing lanes in front of a semi and then braking, especially in heavy traffic, will probably end up with you being severely injured.
cyatoday · 1 points · Posted at 19:45:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Taxes. What they're meant for, what they do, how they're collected, when they're owed, proportional taxes, the way their own taxes work, and effective tax rates. It's not even worth trying to discuss tax with people because they don't have the fundamental understanding of the system down in the first place.
krakelohm · 1 points · Posted at 19:45:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Magnets... I mean really how do they work?
cldarling · 1 points · Posted at 19:46:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That I'm not being a smart ass when I ask if you turned it off and back on again. 50% of my job is doing just that.
ayegudyin · 1 points · Posted at 19:46:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Photography. 10% of people understand photography. Everyone else understands phones.
Luxtaposition · 1 points · Posted at 19:46:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
IMO, Christianity
Alouitious · 1 points · Posted at 19:46:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Late to the party so not sure if this has been posted, but basically the idea that things are the way people think they should be, even if presented with evidence that they are, in fact, the way they are.
Example: Motorcycle lane splitting in California. I've seen so many videos about people getting pissed about this/passive-aggressively/aggressive-aggressively showing their distaste by disregarding the fact that it's 100% legal to do so and acting as if it isn't, because they think it shouldn't be.
Its like, you see hundreds of people abiding by the fact that at any moment a bike could come up right alongside them on the dotted line, and even making room for bikers clear in the knowledge that, whether they like it or not, lane splitting is legal and they'd be better off just dealing with that fact than winning some petty victory based on their perceived superiority over what they consider a dangerous and stupid law(or lack thereof, depending on how it's written).
The other huge one like this is being recorded in public. I've seen so many people try to deny permission to be recorded, and I rarely ever hear people give the actual reason it's legal to continue anyway. It makes me want to bend space and time just so I can shout it at the top of my lungs.
There's a concept known as "reasonable expectation of privacy". If you are in a place where you have a reasonable expectation of privacy, you are well within your rights to deny permission to someone recording you. If, however, you have no reasonable expectation of privacy, then the person recording you has every right to deny your request that they stop recording you, and it doesn't matter who you are.
jadeeeexo · 1 points · Posted at 19:46:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
All love is equal.
Jockel76 · 1 points · Posted at 19:46:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Don't leave your shopping cart in the middle of the aisle - nobody can pass.
Pyroven · 1 points · Posted at 19:46:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to use a computer
DisKid44 · 1 points · Posted at 19:46:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to use a turn signal
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:46:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you wear a swastika on your clothes/have swastika tattoos/march with Nazis/say "heil anything" seriously, then you're a fucking Nazi.
advanttage · 1 points · Posted at 19:46:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Looking both ways before you cross the road will one day save your life. I can't stop my car instantly.
BallzMcGee117 · 1 points · Posted at 19:46:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Economics
Blast338 · 1 points · Posted at 19:46:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How important it is to have your house number on the house and visible from the road.
Metallifan33 · 1 points · Posted at 19:46:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How, everything you are not an expert at is much more complicated than you think.
SleepylaReef · 1 points · Posted at 19:46:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Statistics
lilmankato · 1 points · Posted at 19:47:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
ELI5
psaxey · 1 points · Posted at 19:47:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Credit cards
Dasvovobrot · 1 points · Posted at 19:47:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The Tragedy of Darth Plagueis the wise...
bryxy · 1 points · Posted at 19:47:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
equations........ no- ratios...... no, wait, fuk- percentages!
DeleriumDive · 1 points · Posted at 19:47:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Tax brackets. You still take home more money from a raise that bumps you into the next tax bracket! I can't believe how many people think they should turn down raises or do less OT because they think they'll end up with less after tax.
Trinhity06 · 1 points · Posted at 19:47:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I feel like the 10% here but what is all this about a fire guy and water guy??
qryCosmos · 1 points · Posted at 19:47:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
An understanding of probability and general statistical literacy.
ricdesi · 1 points · Posted at 19:47:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Hindi.
Exynika · 1 points · Posted at 19:47:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The word NOT!
TheHannibalKing · 1 points · Posted at 19:47:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The passing lane.
Engingear · 1 points · Posted at 19:47:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Fastener calculations and how they actually work.
let-it-shine · 1 points · Posted at 19:47:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That hurting / taking advantage of other people hurts them.
-Laus- · 1 points · Posted at 19:47:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Tailgating someone isn't going to get you anywhere faster.
jerseyguy195 · 1 points · Posted at 19:47:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A square meets the definition of a rectangle but a rectangle doesn't meet the definition of a square
chasejltl · 1 points · Posted at 19:47:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Common decency
TheOneSarah · 1 points · Posted at 19:47:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Probability
Blazin_mishka · 1 points · Posted at 19:47:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Blinker fluid
omgipeedmypants · 1 points · Posted at 19:47:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Being rude is not a good personality quality.
Phantom7797 · 1 points · Posted at 19:47:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You can't pause a multiplayer game.
one23ginger · 1 points · Posted at 19:47:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You can't pause an online game ;)
CurlyNipples · 1 points · Posted at 19:47:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Don't look at the solar eclipse.
theSchmoozer · 1 points · Posted at 19:48:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Traffic works when it's predictable.
Tje199 · 1 points · Posted at 19:48:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Bit different, but how mechanics get paid.
We're paid on a flat rate or piece work system, so we do not get paid hourly, we don't get paid salary. We're paid a certain amount for each specific little job, and that's it, regardless of how long it takes. Plus side is if you bust your ass you can make more than 8 hours of pay in an 8 hour day. Downside is you can get paid nothing despite being at work for 8 hours, or in some cases get paid less than 8 even if you spend all day actually doing work.
Jaereth · 1 points · Posted at 19:48:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Your body can only use so much of any one substance at a given time. You poop/pee the rest out that it can't handle in that time frame.
If you have a lean steak salad for lunch, you probably don't need to down 500 grams of protein powder after you work out at the gym. Likewise, if you have a fresh veg salad and some broccoli for dinner, you don't need your super juice or capsules some lady on Facebook sold you. You already are good.
mrsegraves · 1 points · Posted at 19:48:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Efficiency of scale
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:48:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Cabling. There's a huge misconception on both sides about whether better electrical cables matter. Whether you believe they do or not is a bell curve. The consensus on Reddit is that a cable is just a cable - it works or it doesn't.
The answer isn't that it does or doesn't matter. It's that it can matter. It usually doesn't.
These aren't usually given by the manufacturer, but information that'd matter most on an analog cable would be impedance and attenuation. You want impedance to match at every step of the signal path, from source, media, and destination. You want attenuation to be as low as possible - it is measured in magnitude over frequency. A bad analog cable can give you somewhat bad color balance on video and unintended frequency balance on audio.
For digital cables, the main thing to look for is bit error rate. I've factually had a bad optical cable give me crackling on an audio DAC. A lot of it can depend on how good the signal is as well - my computer motherboard can send a good USB signal well over the minimum USB spec.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:48:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to do one frame links
btao · 1 points · Posted at 19:48:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The perspective of scale in the Universe.
Time, distance, energy, mass.... our single perspective cannot comprehend these things in other places of our universe.
Examples:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udAL48P5NJU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjV21PLDWjA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iy7NzjCmUf0
Greddy420 · 1 points · Posted at 19:48:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Bitcoin
ricetruck91 · 1 points · Posted at 19:48:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you do your job at work, time will go by more quickly than if you complain and drag things out.
sahil-tandon · 1 points · Posted at 19:48:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"Resizing an image." You've got to hold the corner and resize it diagonally, it's that simple. Else you mess up the aspect ratio and it pains me so much seeing disproportionate images.
deytookourjewbs · 1 points · Posted at 19:48:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Starting throwing insults and swearing will not make you right and most of the times will make your arguments invalid as well.
Jammer1080 · 1 points · Posted at 19:48:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
We need to love each other.
gotbass210 · 1 points · Posted at 19:48:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Basic economics.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:48:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What false advertising really is.
It's claiming a product does something it does not.
Its not "this item had a tag shaking it was 90% off, but you're charging me full price"
At the worst that deceptive marketing, usually its an honest mistake.
Azuya · 1 points · Posted at 19:49:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Statistics.
T3slaModelE · 1 points · Posted at 19:49:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Leftmost lane is overtaking only, not for Camping 😳!
hooverbenjamin · 1 points · Posted at 19:49:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Slow traffic stay right!
CNSninja · 1 points · Posted at 19:49:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Reality. Although now that I think about it, it's much closer to 99%.
Qwertyytrewq212 · 1 points · Posted at 19:49:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If everyone in a line behind a red light accelerated as soon as it turns green you will get a metric fuckton more cars thru
BrightFuturesRehab · 1 points · Posted at 19:49:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
God
theysayirock · 1 points · Posted at 19:49:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That a highway merge lane is not a fucking cruise lane.
whattheshitbarry · 1 points · Posted at 19:49:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Basic humanity
vomirrhea · 1 points · Posted at 19:49:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not everyone thinks like you do. Everyone is aware of the right brain/left brain theory where some people are more creative minded and others more analytical. Added with everyone's own life experiences, you should never expect that someone will leap to the same conclusions as you. Everyone's "common sense" is a little bit different, so explaining things thouroughly to others can really go a long ways, especially when job training.
thankstowelie · 1 points · Posted at 19:49:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Turning the A/C in your car on full blast does not make it cool down any faster, it just blows hot air in your face.
Shivadxb · 1 points · Posted at 19:49:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Evolution.
It's not adaptation.
Caveat: epigenetic change may or may not count, early days to know what the fuck is going on there
MsJigglypuff100 · 1 points · Posted at 19:49:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Psychologists are not wizards who can manipulate you into thinking or behaving a certain way. We also are not clairvoyant. No, I can't just tell what you're thinking. But yes, I am "using psychology" on you, because every single person does every single day. That's the whole point of the science: understand the ways in which people think, behave, and interact with eachother.
Also, bullshit facebook pages like The Bright Side are absolutely not accurate in their descriptions of anything psychological, and you SHOULD NOT USE THEM FOR ADVICE ON MENTAL ILLNESS PLEASE!!!!
Evergr33n10 · 1 points · Posted at 19:49:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
New Mexico is in the United States. Its the state between Texas and Arizona. Every time i go somewhere and tell people im from New Mexico, people complement me on how well I speak English. Also they ask why a white guy would live in Mexico.
Sound_Step · 1 points · Posted at 19:49:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Percentages.
yaboigutie · 1 points · Posted at 19:49:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You shouldn't use dish soap to wash your car.
wonderyak · 1 points · Posted at 19:50:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"Decimate" means to reduce by 10%.
Ivraalia · 1 points · Posted at 19:50:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The difference between Envy & Jealousy.
The_Tech_Monkey · 1 points · Posted at 19:50:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How magnets work!
Runaroundthemill · 1 points · Posted at 19:50:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Shaving your hair does not make it grow back more.
brenton07 · 1 points · Posted at 19:50:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Driving rules apply to escalators - stand on the right so people can pass on the left.
celeryburger2 · 1 points · Posted at 19:50:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How their cell phone plans work
WilliamsGFX · 1 points · Posted at 19:50:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The customer service representative has very little to do with the problem you're having so you shouldn't be so ready to take your anger out on them.
IIngwaz · 1 points · Posted at 19:50:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not poluting. Smoking, using cars l, littering the smallest thing. People think "its just this time" but dont think millions have said that as well. More than once
ninad2206 · 1 points · Posted at 19:50:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
sarcasm :)
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:50:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Take your lane when turning. It helps traffic move more smoothly.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:50:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You can survive without knowing the latest global tragedies, political slapfighting and celebrity gossip. As a matter of fact some would say that life is better.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:50:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
communism is not when the government controls everything.
Gibsonfan159 · 1 points · Posted at 19:50:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Jesus, I work with an old beligerent bastard who will purposely criticize his coworkers, but when we start criticizing the crap he screws up he just starts repeating everything as loud as possible.
DaveCootchie · 1 points · Posted at 19:50:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
From a United States stand point.... THE LEFT LANE IS FOR PASSING. NOT THE "FAST LANE". NOT THE FUCKING SPEED LIMIT. PASSING. Few things put me into a boiling rage more than having someone doing the exact same speed as me to my left when I need to move over or pass someone....
1TheSlickOne1 · 1 points · Posted at 19:51:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That trump said illegal and not legal
Yinjim · 1 points · Posted at 19:51:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Being nice to people will get you what you want faster than anything else.
Sinistral13 · 1 points · Posted at 19:51:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think you can find almost anything you need on reddit. Just want to say thanks yall. :)
profquif · 1 points · Posted at 19:51:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That celebrating people getting run over just because you don't politically agree with them isn't ok.
vijeno · 1 points · Posted at 19:51:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Whining is not helpful, not necessary, and does not lead to a solution.
Unionlaw · 1 points · Posted at 19:51:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Trump
ESgoldfinger · 1 points · Posted at 19:51:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Digital currency are going to change everybody's life soon.
Blempglorf · 1 points · Posted at 19:51:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The difference between right to work and employment at will. Every time this comes up, online or in person, people confuse the two terms.
diffley1 · 1 points · Posted at 19:51:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The left lane is for passing it's so frustrating to be stuck behind someone going 10mph below the speed of traffic.
LotharVonPittinsberg · 1 points · Posted at 19:51:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What 90% is? This ended up being the same as the other "what do you fund most infuriating" threads.
PerceivedSlight · 1 points · Posted at 19:52:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Things are rarely black and white. Just because I don't agree with...like... Dare doesn't mean I think it's okay for kids to try heroin.
And sometimes I ask asshole questions because it's important to explore the perspective of all sides to understand why a seemingly rational person might maintain it.
Also sometimes the answer comes with shitty consequences but that doesn't stop it from being the answer.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:52:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The seriousness of driving.
xraymike91 · 1 points · Posted at 19:52:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Round a bouts. Its not that hard
HufflepuffQuidditch · 1 points · Posted at 19:52:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Inflation - I'm so tired of hearing people talk about how great it is that the minimum wage is increasing, and they seemingly can't understand how it's actually killing local businesses and making our dollar worth less in the global economy.
invent_or_die · 1 points · Posted at 19:58:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Increasing minimum wage is a tiny blip compared with dealing the American dollar. Our currency is worth far less than 10 years ago. The public doesn't watch forex prices, so they are really manipulated by political parties who actually do not care about them, only their contributors.
arjngpta · 1 points · Posted at 19:52:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The Monty Hall Problem
Exynika · 1 points · Posted at 19:52:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The word NOT!
huskynuts · 1 points · Posted at 19:52:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
4 way stops
E1GHTY_P · 1 points · Posted at 19:52:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Basic Economics. They'd rather have their ism than understand the market.
STROOQ · 1 points · Posted at 19:52:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That there is no such thing as "positive discrimination".
Flyingpegger · 1 points · Posted at 19:52:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Turn signals.
Jpizle3 · 1 points · Posted at 19:52:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
American politics
_Hempsey · 1 points · Posted at 19:53:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The reason Bikers are so angry all the time, is because you keep fucking with our momentum to move an inch in your vehicle that moves 30 miles and hour. Just fucking wait.
youwontfindmyname · 1 points · Posted at 19:53:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Whose turn it is to go when theres a 4 way stop. Wave someone on once, and only ONCE. No you're not being nice, you're being being a hazard.
ToonLink487 · 1 points · Posted at 19:53:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's always the same 5 things that rarely happen that are upvoted the most.
eveoh · 1 points · Posted at 19:53:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The difference between sarcasm and irony
Voidsabre · 1 points · Posted at 19:53:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That solving a Rubik's cube is really easy with a tutorial and a little patience
ginz94 · 1 points · Posted at 19:54:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Posting same thread in Ask Reddit for Karma
lukeyellow · 1 points · Posted at 19:54:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That when we say we're closed that means we're closed. No that does not mean you can come in and buy something 5 mins after we're closed.
Johndunn3800 · 1 points · Posted at 19:54:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to figure out car payments. You can't get a 72 month loan on a $72,000 vehicle and honestly expect a $300 payment. But people come in all the time wanting that exact thing
imkaush · 1 points · Posted at 19:54:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
that they are among the 90% of people....
DefaultProphet · 1 points · Posted at 19:54:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Probability. People assume something with a 90% chance of happening will always happen and are outraged when it doesn't and will often say the prediction was wrong.
Vedfolnir86 · 1 points · Posted at 19:54:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Load the back of the plane first! What kind of logic is letting the passengers in the front get on first
flying_data · 1 points · Posted at 19:54:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Written instructions.
jibber-jabber · 1 points · Posted at 19:54:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Be nice ya dick
Ambergrisaftert8st · 1 points · Posted at 19:54:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
REDDIT.
SwordfshII · 1 points · Posted at 19:54:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Economics and supply and demand.
Creaole-Seasoning · 1 points · Posted at 19:54:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not everyone is created equal. There really are differences between the genders. There really are differences between ethnicities. That isn't good or bad, but it is a harsh reality even if some people don't like it. But everyone deserves the same equal rights.
UniversityMadden · 1 points · Posted at 19:55:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Being kind
drunksheeps · 1 points · Posted at 19:55:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Modern music sucks ass
WalkingDad909 · 1 points · Posted at 19:55:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Rush fans....the band I mean...
Nin10do0014 · 1 points · Posted at 19:55:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When a statistic is shown, some people immediately dismiss it because they don't fit the description of the statistic. What they don't understand is that they add to the statistic; the statistic does not conform to them. So if a study says Asians tend to have dry earwax and my mom doesn't, then she adds to to the statistic of Asians who have wet earwax.
breakfastteaenglish · 1 points · Posted at 19:55:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When a photojournalist is documenting an event -- be it a war, a protest in Charlottesville, or a high school football game -- they have an ethical, professional, and moral obligation to try to tell the whole story. And sometimes that includes taking photos of injured or deceased people.
Oftentimes bystanders, in the heat of the moment, get upset when photojournalists start taking photos of injured or deceased people. I understand why they have this reaction, but in a more perfect world, professional journalists would be given the benefit of the doubt that they are approaching the scene ethically, morally, and with a humanistic heart and eye.
(Of course, there's a right way and a wrong way for photojournalists to take pictures at these types of scenes. Being as unobtrusive as possible is usually best. Give first responders the space they need. The National Press Photographers Association code of ethics states: "Treat all subjects with respect and dignity. Give special consideration to vulnerable subjects and compassion to victims of crime or tragedy. Intrude on private moments of grief only when the public has an overriding and justifiable need to see." (source: https://nppa.org/code_of_ethics))
Just because a photojournalist takes a photo of a tragic scene, that doesn't mean the photo will get published. Professional photojournalism doesn't begin and end when the photographer makes a photo of a tragic scene. There are later rounds of professional editorial judgement that come into play. Picture editors often think about how best to display the photo in a print or digital news outlet. MANY times, this means deciding not to publish particularly gruesome photos. Many publications have a "breakfast test" -- if a reader wouldn't be able to finish their breakfast when they're viewing a particular news photo, it probably doesn't make sense to publish it. You want readers to engage with a photo and story and the ideas and topics contained within, but you dont want readers to reflexively turn away because the content is too gruesome, sensationalized, or shocking.
Please respect the professionalism of photojournalists when you see them working -- whether it's at a public protest, the scene of a car crash, or an injury on a sports field. Give them the benefit of the doubt in the moment. If they're wrong, there are mechanisms down the line to register your disagreement: a letter to the editor, an op-ed or guest column, a phone call to the editor, a phone call or email to the photographer, etc.
sturmen · 1 points · Posted at 19:55:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
99.999999% of the life experience of our fellow human beings.
RuggedMantis · 1 points · Posted at 19:55:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Self checkout lines are for a FEW items. Not a whole buggy full! I see it every day I go to the grocery store.
tttulio · 1 points · Posted at 19:55:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
eating sugar under any form makes you fat
Tnevels · 1 points · Posted at 19:55:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There's a big difference between having a conversation and trying to win an argument.
calliely · 1 points · Posted at 19:55:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Who goes first at a four way intersection.
inconspicuous_male · 1 points · Posted at 19:55:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Advertisers generally do. not. care. if you don't like their commercial. Plenty of successful commercials are obnoxious and hated
ripthelip · 1 points · Posted at 19:56:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Did anyone say using ironic correctly?
I've been trying to explain what ironic actually means to my gf for 3 years... she has only once used it correctly, but it's a fun game now we play where she thinks she's using it correctly and she is never right haha.
happysnappah · 1 points · Posted at 19:56:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That people from Mexico don't risk their lives getting over the border because they're just too lazy to fill out some papers. "Just come legally!" is a joke. There usually isn't a legal route for them.
geoffbutler · 1 points · Posted at 19:56:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Nuclear fission.
cautiousabandon · 1 points · Posted at 19:56:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
marginal tax rates. If your federal tax bracket is 28%, you don't pay 28% on all your income, only the income above a certain amount, below that amount, you pay the lower bracket rates.
AdventureJake · 1 points · Posted at 19:56:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Calling someone a hypocrite doesn't make them wrong when comes to stating facts, it just makes them an asshole. If a pedo rapist says that raping children is wrong are you now justified in doing what he does because he doesn't practice what he preaches? Fuck no. So, why does it seem like everyone is trying to avoid actually addressing arguments with this shitty counterargument. In debate, point's need to stand on it's own merit for it to be true, not the content of the speaker's personality.
Bonedog123 · 1 points · Posted at 19:56:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
credit cards
SpecE30 · 1 points · Posted at 19:56:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Facebook puzzles without variables.
1+3=5
3+5=11
1+5=?
No!!! Arithmetic don't work that way.
Forgetmepls · 1 points · Posted at 19:56:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Mental illness, people can be mad or unhappy or just can't see the world as most other do. People hide it because they don't value themselves enough to bother others or are too prideful to seek attention or help. And most importantly they feel all these emotions for no real reason and for unknown periods of time because they might be feeling it all the time and only show it sometimes.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:56:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That the news isn't an unbiased information source.
matchettiero · 1 points · Posted at 19:56:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Gender issues
FoRad · 1 points · Posted at 19:56:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Food safety in line cooking and handling ready to eat foods. The customer might be happy with quick service, but they will be happier that they didn't have to spend 6 hours on a toilet.
livingtheFrutilife · 1 points · Posted at 19:56:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If I'm reading (book, magazine, newspaper, etc) it is not an invitation to start a conversation (mom!)
key_z · 1 points · Posted at 19:56:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That blockchain & cryptocurrencies are going to take over the world.
Legionodeath · 1 points · Posted at 19:56:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Only stay in the far left lane if you're passing or driving fast. It's unacceptable to drive 70 in the left lane. No matter what YOU think is right/wrong.
NoItNone · 1 points · Posted at 19:56:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
ITT things 90% of people understand
provenpanic · 1 points · Posted at 19:56:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The left lane is for passing and not for cruising along just under the speed limit for the next 20 miles. Fuck you and your stick figure family decal.
DietPenInk · 1 points · Posted at 19:56:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Lifting won't instantly make you bulky/manly/etc.
amy06513 · 1 points · Posted at 19:56:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That everything is connected. Everything. It's why we need to take care of ourselves, others, animals, plants, earth, sea, air.
ZombiUnicorn · 1 points · Posted at 19:56:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That some times you really do just need to turn it off and then turn it back on again to get it to work.
ducksarepeople2 · 1 points · Posted at 19:56:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Percentages
Ardub23 · 1 points · Posted at 19:56:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just because a comment is at -2, doesn't mean the person is wrong and needs more downvotes.
evilfetus01 · 1 points · Posted at 19:57:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Waterguy12 and Fireguy12.
MattaTapThat · 1 points · Posted at 19:57:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The media/big corp. is playing us all.
HenryCurtmantle · 1 points · Posted at 19:57:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That government makes no laws.
BishBoJangle · 1 points · Posted at 19:57:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
We're all just bickering bags of cells, on our slow way to expiring.
Might as well try to be kind and helpful during our time here.
InBeforeitwasCool · 1 points · Posted at 19:57:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A deductible is the amount of money you have to pay before your insurance company pays anything.
Doublestack00 · 1 points · Posted at 19:57:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Tax free weekend before school starts is a joke. You only save $7 per $100 spent here and people buy things they wouldn't normally buy because they assume they are saving a ton.
andy1792 · 1 points · Posted at 19:57:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
English grammar
thevine111 · 1 points · Posted at 19:57:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Death and Taxes
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:57:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That someone else who is doing a job/service is actually another human being.
ChipperBones · 1 points · Posted at 19:57:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
you can follow a facebook thread without commenting, there's a built in feature
nikkiP0Ps · 1 points · Posted at 19:57:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That you don't walk in the middle of the road when there's a perfectly good sidewalk on either side.
ChefWadeWilson · 1 points · Posted at 19:57:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to treat a server
SpeedDart1 · 1 points · Posted at 19:57:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Most metalheads are not emo.
bky18 · 1 points · Posted at 19:57:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That first past the post voting is actually terrible as it inevitably leads to a two-party system, the spoiler effect and minority rule.
brisamps8 · 1 points · Posted at 19:57:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Depression/ Anxiety
Beermii · 1 points · Posted at 19:57:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How a four way stop works.
gravitywind1012 · 1 points · Posted at 19:58:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That the wheel was invented by a cavewoman.
DifferentPulse · 1 points · Posted at 19:58:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Weebs. I don't understand what it feels like to be hated by every race.
Zaungast · 1 points · Posted at 19:58:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
People doing stupid things has nothing to do with natural selection--mental states ("ideas") aren't heritable.
Spudzley · 1 points · Posted at 19:58:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not to speed through a parking lot. Sure you may not see someone but going fast enough they won't see you and have the ability to react.
Starbourne8 · 1 points · Posted at 19:58:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Socialism doesn't work
orderofprime · 1 points · Posted at 19:58:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Their are two sides to every story -
just because someone is more upset or more angry, doesn't mean their story is more valid. Listen to both sides and make a judgement based on overlapping facts rather than a single narrative.
GamblersAnonymous · 1 points · Posted at 19:58:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Basic money management.
Vault__Dweller_111 · 1 points · Posted at 19:58:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The wage gap isn't literal
corvus_curiosum · 1 points · Posted at 19:58:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How data are collected and statistics calculated has a huge effect on what they mean. If you forget that you can come to stupid conclusions like thinking giving soldiers helmets causes head injuries.
MythoclastByXur · 1 points · Posted at 19:58:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you want to lose weight eat fewer calories.
shadowslain · 1 points · Posted at 19:58:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That turning a thermostat to a higher temperature does not make the room hot faster (at least for electric baseboard heaters)
CanadianWildlifeDept · 1 points · Posted at 19:58:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How about, "A cultural convention that's familiar and comfortable to you isn't an actual fact?"
I'm seeing a lot of comments about pet peeves where there's no objective "fact" not to "understand," just someone who doesn't get why everybody else wasn't raised the same as them. Doesn't work that way.
jedberg · 1 points · Posted at 19:58:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
P values. Most scientific articles are crap with bad statistics.
bvsshevd · 1 points · Posted at 19:58:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You cannot fully be against racism/discrimination if you are only against it when it applies to yourself. You can't turn around and defend yourself against racism by generalizing another entire group of people the same way they do to you. If you do that, you are no better than they are
frikandeloorlog · 1 points · Posted at 19:58:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A domain, website and hosting are 3 different things
masterm · 1 points · Posted at 19:58:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
all of those logical fallacies
Sad-thoughts · 1 points · Posted at 19:58:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Having a pet is a privilege not a right.
hperrin · 1 points · Posted at 19:59:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The observer effect in quantum physics has nothing to do with any person looking at an experiment. It has to do with measuring the experiment. In order to measure an experiment, your measurement device has to interact with it, changing the outcome, and that's what is meant by "observer". As much as Deepak Chopra wants to believe, it has nothing to do with a conscious being looking at it.
witlessknower · 1 points · Posted at 19:59:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That the state is an immoral institution and that we would be better off with less of it, even without it at all. That the ends do not justify the means and the ends of the government isn't even that great. That taxation is theft, modern day slavery.
htowncraw · 1 points · Posted at 19:59:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Fracking doesn't cause earthquakes
BigWholesomeBird · 1 points · Posted at 19:59:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The theory of relativity. I watched a theory of relativity for kids video on youtube and couldnt understand it. It finally clicked in my head and when it did it really made me appreciate how smart he was even more.
usefully_useless · 1 points · Posted at 19:59:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Basically anything to do with probability / statistics
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:59:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That "correlation doesn't equal causation" is not some magic wand that can be waved at any scientific study to dismiss its findings. Its applicability is actually very limited.
Also, reporting on correlations between variables is a perfectly legitimate pursuit in science.
Strangerkill2 · 1 points · Posted at 19:59:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That you shouldn't live just to work, especially if you don't like your job.
arden13 · 1 points · Posted at 19:59:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just because something or someone offends you does not give you moral authority to attack it/them.
plasmax22 · 1 points · Posted at 20:00:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Don't reinforce between bomb sites in R6
voyager14 · 1 points · Posted at 20:00:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That humans can't destroy earth
afrothunder666 · 1 points · Posted at 20:00:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Dieting. People always tell me, "I need to start going to the gym."
No, you need to put down that fucking soda and candy bar. You can't out-train a bad diet. Not gonna happen.
wedgiey1 · 1 points · Posted at 20:00:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How progressive tax systems works. You won't make less money because of taxes if you get a raise...
rechosuave · 1 points · Posted at 20:00:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Immaculate conception instead of using virgin birth. Majority don't know the BIG difference.
pcweber111 · 1 points · Posted at 20:00:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The way the weather and climate work. We can take that a step further and say over 90% of people out there probably don't understand science very well at all. It's really easy to live in a bubble and just assume others understand the way the world works if you do but we see it time and time again with what people believe or how they talk or whatever that they really have no idea about the natural world at large beyond what their immediate senses (or religion, or politicians, etc) tell them. Not sure if I should be sad about that or just accept that throughout history the percentage of ignorance has probably been much higher than that and we're maybe making progress.
spritanium · 1 points · Posted at 20:00:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You can be racist/sexist/etc without realizing it or doing it intentionally.
RodneyPonk · 1 points · Posted at 20:00:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That looking down on people does not make you better.
So many comments on videos that demonstrate how, for instance, many people are racist, are "Yeah this [insert demographic here] are all really racist.
r/leagueoflegends is flooded with messages along the lines of "Koreans are all so toxic and stupid" after a Korean pro got backlash for making a mild remark.
bacchus_x · 1 points · Posted at 20:00:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to use their turn signal
Mrferg101 · 1 points · Posted at 20:01:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If yo9ure just cruising along in the left lane at the same speed as the car in the right lane you're blocking the damn road and we all hate you.
adeaegus · 1 points · Posted at 20:01:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The germ theory of disease.... Wash your f#*king hands, people!
rnaka530 · 1 points · Posted at 20:02:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
SehijhuuA GEHBITNJ
sweetbabygreen · 1 points · Posted at 20:02:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
They aren't special. Especially waiting in traffic for an hour and you see some asshole in his merc riding the shoulder.
quickscope10 · 1 points · Posted at 20:02:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
http://www.d-e-f-i-n-i-t-e-l-y.com
Speaks for itself.
Anonknee_Muss · 1 points · Posted at 20:02:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The hole in the handle of the saucepan is for putting the spoon in.
dontgetlivid · 1 points · Posted at 20:02:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Where X is in an algebra equation.
h0t_pocket · 1 points · Posted at 20:03:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
blinkers
Reenky · 1 points · Posted at 20:03:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Time. Specifically how long it takes to get somewhere or there and back. I feel like sometimes I'm the only one who realizes that when I have to run up town, which is only a couple miles away, between actually getting in the vehicle, driving through traffic and getting back, it will always take longer than most seem to give themselves time for.
JohnnyConatus · 1 points · Posted at 20:03:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Statistics. But I could be wrong.
kingclubs · 1 points · Posted at 21:01:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
89.28% of statistics is incorrect.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:04:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Magnets.
iamchode · 1 points · Posted at 20:04:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
a 500 calorific defecit a day DOES NOT equal 1lb of fat a week. This is based off the average 2500 calories a day that is drilled into us from a young age. If you want to lose weight, take 20% of your Total Daily Energy Expenditure (TDEE).
If anyone is seriously looking to lose weight, inbox me and I am happy to help out for free.
bERt0r · 1 points · Posted at 20:08:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
2500? Umm only in America i guess.
iamchode · 1 points · Posted at 20:11:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I am from the UK :)
Source: http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/Goodfood/Pages/eat-less.aspx
hammersickle0217 · 1 points · Posted at 20:04:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Themselves
JVNT · 1 points · Posted at 20:04:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That spraying three bottles of perfume on yourself to hide that fact that you stink, doesn't hide the fact that you stink. It just makes it worse and makes everyone who has to be within a mile of your smelly ass hate you.
GullibleSpoon16 · 1 points · Posted at 20:04:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A strong currency isn't always a good thing. If the currency is too strong, exports will decrease lowering the GDP of your country. There is a balance to currency.
NY2IRAQ · 1 points · Posted at 20:04:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
PTSD
Bezerkingly_Zero · 1 points · Posted at 20:04:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yids
Throwaway08205 · 1 points · Posted at 20:05:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Lmfao if you insist
dikbat · 1 points · Posted at 20:05:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How Rotten Tomatoes works. You regularly hear the complaint that a particular movie with a very low score is "bad, but not that bad" (and the reverse, too). I watch Collider's Youtube channel sometimes and even these people who work in the industry will make that sort of comment. Sometimes even while giving the movie a negative review, IE doing the thing that created the low RT score.
All a low RT score means is that there's a near-consensus that the movie is bad, not that there's a consensus that it's the worst movie ever. If you think The Circle is bad but better than "15%", it's possible that every critic who negatively reviewed it agrees with you. The same is true of high scores. It makes no sense to say that Wonder Woman is good and then in the next breath complain that its RT score is inflated.
KingJok3r11 · 1 points · Posted at 20:06:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to shut the hell up.
bluemavis · 1 points · Posted at 20:06:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to take a napkin out of a napkin holder. not reaching back to grab 80 at once and pulling them out in a smashed stack. Just take the folded end of the one in the front and tug. Comes out just like a Kleenex. Super easy. Not rocket science.
Lewkiepoo · 1 points · Posted at 20:07:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Getting upset at things out of your control won't make the situation better the majority of the time.
Someone cut you off while driving? Getting overly upset about that person might ruin a significant part of your day, while the driver in the car that cut you off might not even know they did anything wrong and just go about their day regularly. In those situations getting pissed off only affects you and will make you even more upset.
I see things like this happen way too often with my peers. Making a huge deal out of something so small won't make it better!
Life's 10% what happens and 90% how you react to it.
shattasma · 1 points · Posted at 20:07:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Merging onto a highway. The majority of traffic is people not merging correctly. And how to use the passing lane.
Ever seen a big backup on the highway where there is no construction or accident? Notice how these slowdowns are where the on/off ramps are?
The only obstical on the highway is other cars, If there's no construction or accident restrictions. That means of there is traffic it must be due to people driving in a way to cause traffic i.e driving show in the passing lane, and merging to slow so the whole highway has to brake for you.
thiswasabadideahuh · 1 points · Posted at 20:08:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How history effects our everday lives. And history in general.
ZenMacros · 1 points · Posted at 20:09:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Rushing somebody when they're doing something is a good way to make sure they don't do it well.
Thousand_Sunny · 1 points · Posted at 20:10:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
food that tastes the best are usually the most unhealthy and food that is not as great tend to be the most healthy
LadyPhoenix74 · 1 points · Posted at 20:11:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you see something that needs done, do it - end of story.
A common work issue, each shift is responsible for taking out their own trash. Reasonable enough. However, if my shift forgets, or doesn't get to it, or had a huge emergency, we forget.
They will pull out the trash, stick a giant note on it that says, "EVE SHIFT TRASH," and let it sit there. For sixteen hours.
I work in a nursing home on an alzheimers/dementia unit. 80% of our trash are soiled adult diapers, and the other 20% is uneaten food. Which is a major health hazard, and if state were to walk in, it would be a HUGE tag on the facility as a whole. According to the state, if it's found on Day shift, Day shift will be in trouble and take that punishment. It's our responsibility, but when a resident pulls the firm alarm at 10PM, things like, taking out the trash become the last thing on our list.
genuinelyinterested9 · 1 points · Posted at 20:11:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Parking on the sensors at traffic lights. Parking on the second sensor makes the traffic computer think that there are three cars waiting for the light. It's useful for turning left across traffic, not much else.
RamenJunkie · 1 points · Posted at 20:11:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to flank in Overwatch.
Running like lemmings up the main line and dying is not going to win any matches.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:12:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Doobie-Keebler · 2 points · Posted at 20:39:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Man, vaginas are so complex they ought to come with an owner's manual.
raindropmangoes · 1 points · Posted at 20:12:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Don't answer non yes-or-no questions with "yes" or "no".
"Do you prefer (A) or (B)?"
"Yes."
LineChef · 1 points · Posted at 20:12:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There is definitely no sex in the champagne room.
adorawhore · 1 points · Posted at 20:14:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Discrete versus discreet.
i_hug_strangers · 1 points · Posted at 20:15:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
that trump isn't a racist
seanauer · 1 points · Posted at 20:15:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How the internet works. But that's more than 90%
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:16:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Why everyone on earth should send me a dollar today.
Ash4d · 1 points · Posted at 20:16:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In no order:
The UK voting system (or politics in general, though I'm no expert by any means) Tax Brackets Evolution
The list goes on and on...
Balbright · 1 points · Posted at 20:17:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Percentages.
Dabll_Doya · 1 points · Posted at 20:17:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The left lane is for passing.
RinkyDinkyPineapple · 1 points · Posted at 20:18:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
People who work in customer service jobs are real human beings with feelings and emotions.
marriegomac · 1 points · Posted at 20:19:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Common courtesy
free_mustacherides · 1 points · Posted at 20:20:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yellow lights don't mean to speed up
WinterNikita · 1 points · Posted at 20:20:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That how people live their private lives very rarely should ever concern you. Unless they are actively doing something to infringe on your life it really doesn't and shouldn't matter to you.
If she wants to post risqué pictures of herself, let her. If he's gay, oh no! If they wanna do live slovenly let them. If someone has no interest in being a health freak, shoot.
nomamesgue · 1 points · Posted at 20:21:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How turning signals work
UnwantedGalaxy · 1 points · Posted at 20:21:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How can I get a job if I need previous experience to get one? I need this job to get that experience.
Hope I worded that right.
Doobie-Keebler · 1 points · Posted at 20:35:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Simon and Garfunkel put it best:
https://youtu.be/MXIBB0QjkQU#t=01m23s
lab_23 · 1 points · Posted at 20:21:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Key is not to eat processed foods as often
lordjackenstein · 1 points · Posted at 20:24:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The most efficient way to exit an aircraft.
Mechasteel · 1 points · Posted at 20:24:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That a voting system where you supposedly vote for your favorite candidate, usually results in you voting for your second-least-favorite candidate. You can tell this is happening when people tell you "don't waste your vote."
KaraWolf · 1 points · Posted at 22:22:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Would be interesting if everyone did "waste your vote"
postwerk · 1 points · Posted at 20:26:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Most of the quizzes on facebook
Source: The quizzes on facebook
KaraWolf · 1 points · Posted at 22:21:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Wouldn't be able to tell ya. Most of the quizzes on facbook want my log in info so I leave.
postwerk · 1 points · Posted at 23:54:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I've never clicked one, but they always say "95% of people wont get this right"
Seems legit, and in no way pandering to ego whatsoever.
KaraWolf · 1 points · Posted at 02:02:57 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Hahahaha
Sciuvs11122 · 1 points · Posted at 20:26:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The kiosks at the movie are 10x faster than the line.
Pulp__Reality · 1 points · Posted at 20:28:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not standing directly next to the baggage carousel when waiting for your bag.
Its not going to come faster because you stand there, and youre being a huge dick to others trying to grab their stuff. When you see your bag you walk up to it. Dont be so entitled you believe its your right to stand there so you dont have to walk 4 extra steps.
Plus people walk into each other when they grab their 50kg overweight luggage and cant lift it off the belt
eklein777 · 1 points · Posted at 20:29:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not all muslims are terrorists
_RoboShark_ · 1 points · Posted at 20:30:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Save. Your. Money.
teleshope · 1 points · Posted at 20:31:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The electoral college system. It's like just accepted but I think a lot of people just don't understand it. I don't like it, but it's what we have and we can't really replace it right now.
RandomPlayerCSGO · 1 points · Posted at 20:32:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That the objective of life is to do what u want, not what someone else tells u to do
Stayathomepyrat · 1 points · Posted at 20:33:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
as a nurse.... sorry if don't know about every med and tx in the book. your dad is here for a total knee replacement, sorry I can't answer questions about his brain tumor treatment.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:34:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"why didn't he just shoot him in the legs"
"Just tazer him bro, no need to shoot him"
🐸🔫
tubewatch · 1 points · Posted at 20:34:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Mathmatics
Mo_Dex · 1 points · Posted at 20:37:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Antibacterial soap doesn't work much better.
KaraWolf · 1 points · Posted at 22:15:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I tried looking for non-antibacteriap soap once. Failed. Terribly. Plain ol' soap isn't common now.
turducken69420 · 1 points · Posted at 20:37:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The US tax brackets. Don't turn down a job because it puts you in a higher tax bracket. Only the income that falls in that bracket is taxed at that rate. i.e. if you hit the next bracket at 50k and that new job pays 52 only the 2k will be taxed at the higher rate.
young-and-mild · 1 points · Posted at 20:38:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you keep a safe following distance in traffic, you will use your brakes much less often and save a considerable amount of gas.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:40:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Dairy, meat and eggs are pretty unhealthy for you & Green is good
Super_SATA · 1 points · Posted at 20:42:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That Martin Shkreli did what he did to screw over insurance companies, not people with HIV.
texempt · 1 points · Posted at 20:42:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Anxiety and depression are normal human emotions. Problems don't arise from feeling these emotions, but rather from an inability to effectively cope with them.
isaidwhatabout · 1 points · Posted at 20:45:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That when it's buy one get one half off you get the half off of an EQUAL OR LESSER VALUE ITEM!!!!!!
KaraWolf · 1 points · Posted at 22:14:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What its not buy a table and basically get the TV free?? /s
isaidwhatabout · 1 points · Posted at 00:24:37 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Where I work it's "so I can get this $3 necklace and get this $40 salt lamp for free?"
KaraWolf · 1 points · Posted at 02:03:53 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Eeggghhhhhuh. Good lord people.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:46:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
One's constitutional rights are not eligible for suspension just because you do not like a certain group of people or an organization. They cannot be turned on and off depending on the issue and your personal stance on it, either.
The fact that people immediately want to throw the constitution away because they hear that somebody is accused of a particularly heinous act, or because they believe that X policy is evil, or whatever it may be, are the best examples of why we have a Constitution in the first place. If you want to pick and choose when to apply it, then it is meaningless amd serves no purpose to begin with.
-speaking of the US Constitution specifically.
tronalddumpLOL · 1 points · Posted at 20:46:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Your and you're
chromevideo · 1 points · Posted at 20:58:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Math.
Scuba_sleeve · 1 points · Posted at 20:59:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to be nice to one another.
checkmick · 1 points · Posted at 21:01:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"Evolutionary purpose," by definition, does not exist.
slightly_dull · 1 points · Posted at 21:01:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Try turning it off and on again
Agent_Cookie · 1 points · Posted at 21:03:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You can't just make bad content then call it "satire" and instantly make it good.
Tripleberst · 1 points · Posted at 21:03:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The earth is not a perfect habitat for humans. We're well adapted to run and have technology to make up for our shortcomings. That said, if I randomly picked a place to leave you naked anywhere on the planet; in something like 80% of those random places you'd be dead in under an hour.
KaraWolf · 1 points · Posted at 22:11:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I feel like 80% is a low ballpark here too. Google says 3% of the landmass is city. Only 29% is even LAND. 12% of that is permanent snow. 33% of it is desert. Thats....13% left of the land that isnt covered in snow or desert. Annnd 7% of that is jungle. Good luck there lol so 6% chance the random place wont: drown you, fry you, freeze you or eat you probably.
MetalBroccoli · 1 points · Posted at 21:07:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Your vs you're
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 21:09:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Indicate when you're driving!
NightShiftNinja · 1 points · Posted at 21:11:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That when someone is having an anxiety attack, repetitively telling them to calm down or breathe does NOT help. Back the hell up and give me some space. It's bad enough that I feel like I'm about to die at any moment when it starts happening but having a bunch of people crowd around me, or, (please god, don't do this) touch me, makes it ten times worse. I get that some are just trying to help, but when people who have anxiety are that far into an episode, just be there. Don't grab them. Don't tell them to calm down. Just stay there with them until it blows over.
lukipe1a · 1 points · Posted at 21:12:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Tipping for services rendered like eating out and deliveries
Dougnifico · 1 points · Posted at 21:13:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
When you mistreat employees and crush morale their work suffers. This starts a feedback loop of more yelling, worse work, and high turnover.
Bulbasaur2000 · 1 points · Posted at 21:14:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Relativity
Jamessimmons35 · 1 points · Posted at 21:16:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Apparently the concept of 90%. 90% of these comments refer to something that only 20%-30% of people don't understand
MrLongJeans · 1 points · Posted at 21:17:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Huge numbers. And comparing huge numbers.
People have a huge, fat aunt or they buy a huge Coke at McDonalds. Big and little are Coke sizes. But we know that huge numbers are really big like the difference between a mountain or an ant hill, right?
But huge numbers are beyond comparisons in a physical object scale.
So consider 14,000,00,000,000 or 14 trillion. The US national debt in 2016 was 14 trillion dollars. How many huge McDonald's cokes is that? All the water in all the oceans on Earth would fill roughly 14 trillion SuperSize coke cups.
Or we try to use time. A Year is 3.4 million seconds. MILLION. Does the average person live a BILLION seconds? Yeah. If you're a billion seconds old you're 31 years old. You were born in 1986 when the global average life expectancy was a little over 2 billion seconds (63 y.o.).
So how many years is a US National Debt of Seconds, 14 trillion? What is 14 trillion seconds old? The Great Pyramids? Dinosaurs? Don't be ridiculous. The Dinosaurs died over 2,000 trillion seconds ago.
Neanderthals evolved about 14 trillion seconds or 440,000 years ago but homo sapiens are younger. According to Google, greenhouse gases are at their highest level in the last 440,000 years or 1 US national debt seconds ago or 1 neanderthal ago.
I'm just Googling 14 trillion in different units since that was the number I got when I measured the ocean's volume in Coke cups.
Whenever you find a large number just Google that number to find out what things are as numerous as that number. If you read that something will cost tax-payers millions of dollars ask yourself: is that as many as the population of New York or the population of the US or the population of India (8.5 million, 323 million, and 1.3 billion respectively).
Just memorizing a few huge numbers as reference points helps. But really, the exact same number of people live in New York City and India: a whole shitload of people, too many to count, too many for you to wrap your head around.
(also since I just did all the math in Google, at least one of these numbers is off by a few zeros.)
StoneColdSexual · 1 points · Posted at 21:26:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just because you disagree with someone's non violent actions doesn't give you the right to inflict violence upon them. Be that through your actions, calling in the government, or otherwise inciting others.
However, upon an ideology becoming violent, proceed to drop the hammer.
--arete-- · 1 points · Posted at 21:27:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
“Begging the question” does not mean to raise a completely separate question.
PYFighter2000 · 1 points · Posted at 21:45:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That the 'Wind Chill Factor' is not the actual temperature outside...
Teddy3412 · 1 points · Posted at 21:47:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to navigate an airport
itshexx · 1 points · Posted at 21:48:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The road rules.
zbone564 · 1 points · Posted at 21:51:15 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
PEMDAS
AlphaBravo69 · 1 points · Posted at 22:03:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What the fucking blinkers are for.
dbcaliman · 1 points · Posted at 22:07:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What the first amendment actually means.
AustinCharless · 1 points · Posted at 22:09:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How electricity works. Volts times amps equals watts. Everyone should have to watch electroboom.
Dradoc_4 · 1 points · Posted at 22:16:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to use turn signals.
Starscream19120 · 1 points · Posted at 22:23:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Turn signals
arod1989 · 1 points · Posted at 22:29:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That Nazism wasn't a banner for retarded rednecks (who aren't even German) to stand behind and use as a symbol of hate. Big difference between bigotry and nationalism. There's absolutely nothing wrong with being a patriot and wanting your nation to be strong and to excel. That being said the whole idea of nationalism is now categorized as a hateful, disgusting ideal that only white supremacists could get behind.
FunyonDEATH · 1 points · Posted at 22:41:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's not enough to be really passionate about a singular issue, you must be able to look at things from all angles.
Mrkennedyfreak · 1 points · Posted at 22:53:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Pharmacy insurance.
NSilverguy · 1 points · Posted at 22:53:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
NPR & The Guardian are a couple that come to mind. Typically with NPR, I'm just listening to news headlines at the top of the hour. I understand they're considered more liberal-leaning, but the headlines typically just report facts, not so much opinion.
gmil3548 · 1 points · Posted at 23:18:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Basic economics
RosemaryCrafting · 1 points · Posted at 23:21:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The past tense of cost is cost.
AngryMimi · 1 points · Posted at 23:24:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How to merge into traffic....
Irelgbt · 1 points · Posted at 23:27:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes but it's obvious as to why not only is everyone familiar with it but it allowed people to switch from typing with some sort of tax writer to a computer easily and so forth
Stevenlb · 1 points · Posted at 23:31:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There are a whole spectrum of libertarians. We're not all rich, entitled neocons, here to devax your babies.
Some of us are rich, entitled neolibs, here to devax your babies.
For real: I'm joking of course, there are many libertarians on the civil libertarian side that are natural liberal allies. And many of us love vaccines!
roxum1 · 1 points · Posted at 23:32:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Credit Reports
A_Dany · 1 points · Posted at 23:32:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Join voice chat in overwatch comp games
Dragonix975 · 1 points · Posted at 00:31:35 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Memes
ucccft · 1 points · Posted at 00:35:37 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
As long as it's not happening to ME, it's not happening!
AlrightyAlmighty · 1 points · Posted at 00:50:10 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Human life is improving constantly. Human life is much better than in the old days. Scientifically proven.
rvatarheel · 1 points · Posted at 01:12:13 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Less vs. Fewer
jfoxshakes · 1 points · Posted at 01:29:09 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just how fucked we are in the next decade. But, there's nothing special about humans, so whatever, we had a good run.
ucccft · 1 points · Posted at 01:38:52 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Please wake up! Many of the States have already been Invaded! This is one of those shady areas. If you have millions of people who Invade a country, isn't that a Declaration of WAR without words? It's so hilarious if you think about it, it's a passive invasion, happens slowly and over time because we don't enforce the existing laws. So instead of enforcing said laws, we would rather bend over backward for cheap-cheap H-1B/L1, Visa-Over-stayer, and illegals that do not want to assimilate nor speak English. Now that right there is a democracy, a failed one at that. So how exactly does this help the ANY "American" of ANY Race? Think about it, It's NOT THE POOR who Hire all the H-1B and Illegal Alien, it's all the rich good old boys.
_TheAssCrackBandit_ · 1 points · Posted at 02:57:06 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
What a pun is.
NorCalK · 1 points · Posted at 04:18:08 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Your and You're
bman10_33 · 1 points · Posted at 05:54:12 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Maybe not 90%, but all of my family. It is a lot easier for everyone to do something yourself than walk to the other side of the house, ask me to "help," have me do it for you instead, and walk back.
If you don't know what you are doing or are incapable of it that is one thing, but if you can do it on your own, don't go out of your way to ask me to fucking do it for you.
beachtrader · 1 points · Posted at 08:47:17 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
No one owes you anything in this life.
And life is not fair.
If you want it, you have to work really hard at it--not just more than you are doing to get by, but intense concentrated effort. And it may take years for your efforts to show fruit.
Very few people truly understand this, but once they do--they can achieve what others just dream about.
DarthGrind · 1 points · Posted at 15:03:53 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Thanks guys :-)
Slaisa · 1 points · Posted at 15:46:09 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
God may or may not exist, its no reason to get your undies in a bunch.
timdesuyo · 1 points · Posted at 15:53:43 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Irony.
AbnerDoubIedeaI · 1 points · Posted at 17:41:23 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Traffic circles.
1) Yield to those in the circle. (You don't use your blinker for this part)
2) Signal your intention to exit. (Here's where you use your blinker)
That's it. Those are the two basic rules but no one remembers/fallows them.
BetterCallViv · 1 points · Posted at 20:03:00 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
That most people are not good people and a person isn't defaultly good.
CrazyNinjaJay · 1 points · Posted at 12:23:22 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
Which lane to use when on English motorways. I'm sure that is relevant in other countries but I wouldn't know about that.
imfromca · 1 points · Posted at 02:50:29 on August 17, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think i was
milchfirma · 1 points · Posted at 08:37:14 on November 13, 2017 · (Permalink)
echt he
[deleted] · -3 points · Posted at 14:57:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Thrumpledenoozitty · 3 points · Posted at 16:18:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But even if you're in the second percentile, you're still riding high on that feeling you're better than the bottom 1%. It feels amazing, man.
Birds1010 · 2 points · Posted at 19:26:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
r/iamverysmart.
But seriously, stop being a douche. Arrogance is the least attractive trait a person can have.
anonymoushero1 · 0 points · Posted at 19:49:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
For some it's ignorance. There's also a negative correlation between how much someone's "arrogance" (or your perception of it) bothers you and your own security.
Birds1010 · 1 points · Posted at 20:29:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Whatever you need to tell yourself, bud. Nothing turns me off faster than an arrogant guy. Grow up and learn to be humble for fuck's sake.
anonymoushero1 · 1 points · Posted at 20:33:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
LOL I didn't even claim to be part of the 10% I literally just answered the question of this post and you guys attacked. That's insecurity in action.
Birds1010 · 1 points · Posted at 20:36:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Nah it's pointing out an obnoxious personality flaw.
anonymoushero1 · 1 points · Posted at 20:39:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You took a single comment that wasn't even directed towards you out of context in order to "point out a personality flaw"
I'm failing to see how that isn't textbook arrogance...
Birds1010 · 1 points · Posted at 20:59:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
...? You responded to my comment, therefore it was directed at me right? Kinda confused what you're getting at.
anonymoushero1 · 1 points · Posted at 21:13:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I responded to the OP's question. Then you jumped in and told me to stop it.
Birds1010 · 1 points · Posted at 21:21:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Cause you sounded like an asshole
anonymoushero1 · 1 points · Posted at 21:26:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It was very arrogant of you to jump so quickly to that conclusion and insert your unsolicited opinion in the way that you did.
Birds1010 · 1 points · Posted at 23:11:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I replied to a public comment on a public forum calling someone out for acting like an asshole. I don't think that's what being arrogant is but ok.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:55:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You can start off by not assuming that you are.
anonymoushero1 · 1 points · Posted at 21:13:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I did not make that assumption.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 21:38:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Either way you have a point. The more intelligent someone is, the lonlier they will be. I don't think I'm too far off the median 90% where it's significant, but I can't imagine how someone far more intelligent than I copes with people seeing everything less clearly.
anonymoushero1 · 1 points · Posted at 21:48:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
people get really weird about intelligence. I think most people believe it's more important than it really is. Intelligence is not a requirement for success or happiness. Sure there is some correlation between intelligence and success, but it's just a correlation it's not a rule.
Edit: I immediately take that back. It's because when people randomly bring up intelligence, about 99% of the time it adds nothing to the conversation and is basically used as an attempt to seem important or win an argument etc.
I can see how people read my comment and misinterpret it as "just another dude trying to find any excuse he can to talk about how smart he is eye roll" but to be honest the reason I chose this response is because
was already taken.
the_master_of_memes · 1 points · Posted at 19:33:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I indubitably concur, my good fellow. Whensoever I pontificate with regard to my dialect of sesquipedalian verbosity or my superior capacity for rote and comprehension, I am always met with most proletariat and primitive responses. Some at least appreciate my gifts, as they inform me I must go to /r/iamverysmart, whereupon I may bask in the serendipity of the intellect of my fellows.
I scored a 95% in every IQ test ever devised. Clearly society knows not how to treat us
TheNaughtyMonkey · -8 points · Posted at 17:25:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Not that great, in my experience.
I would trade a few points for more happiness, no question.
Name_Checker_Outer · 6 points · Posted at 19:42:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
r/iamverysmart
TheNaughtyMonkey · 0 points · Posted at 19:54:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Should I deny the truth?
Would that make you feel better about yourself?
Am I boasting, in any way?
Name_Checker_Outer · 2 points · Posted at 19:59:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Did I say you were boasting?
TheNaughtyMonkey · 0 points · Posted at 20:08:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
?
Name_Checker_Outer · 1 points · Posted at 20:16:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yep.
TheNaughtyMonkey · 1 points · Posted at 20:27:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Well, I have no idea why you made that post, then.
throwaway17oz · 2 points · Posted at 18:18:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What Iq test did you take?
TheNaughtyMonkey · -2 points · Posted at 19:38:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Getting personal. Yes, I had a battery of tests from a Developmental Psychologist. At the time, they said "We don't want to put a number on it, but he is very, very intelligent."
Other, much less rigorous tests since then would put me firmly in the top 1%.
And no, I don't really consider myself that exceptional. My father was far more intelligent than me. I would say I think quickly, have good pattern recognition, and a reasonably good memory. My father was an eidetic polyglot.
KenuR · 1 points · Posted at 18:04:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If there was a button that would make me happy for the rest of my life I'd press it in a heartbeat. Even if I'd become a vegetable or something.
spritanium · 1 points · Posted at 20:17:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Downvoted by people who believe everyone is as stupid as they are
/r/nothingeverhappens
anonymoushero1 · -1 points · Posted at 17:38:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
what!? You mean finding almost everyone either boring or annoying to the point where you even feel that way about yourself isn't all its cracked up to be?
TheNaughtyMonkey · -1 points · Posted at 17:53:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
LOL
I can only speak for myself.
[deleted] · -4 points · Posted at 18:13:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm loving it personally. I would not give this up in any degree.
throwaway17oz · 1 points · Posted at 18:19:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How do you know how intelligent you are? Who administered your Iq test?
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 18:51:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I know how repulsive I sound, but my judgment is based on my current profession, my academic history, and the iq test results administered by Mensa.
throwaway17oz · 1 points · Posted at 18:53:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You took an actual administered test, not an online one?
[deleted] · -1 points · Posted at 18:54:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I stopped paying the membership fee, but yeah I used to be a Mensan. But I'm more proud of my profession.
TheNaughtyMonkey · -1 points · Posted at 19:39:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A rather smug bunch of naval gazers, I thought.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 19:46:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Exactly my thoughts haha
[deleted] · -1 points · Posted at 16:21:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
anonymoushero1 · 2 points · Posted at 16:29:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
that is just semantics of whether the question means at least 90% or exactly 90%
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 18:58:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Capitalism is exploitation
[deleted] · -7 points · Posted at 17:49:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
[deleted] · 3 points · Posted at 20:16:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And to show they were socialists they put them in prison so they couldn't vote against anything they did! Makes total sense!
warpg8 · 3 points · Posted at 20:36:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How historically revisionist of you. They were fascists who rose to power under the guise of socialism by offering up some small, basic social programs and reforms because of how economically decimated Germany was at the end of WWI. Then, after they had power, they revealed themselves to be who they always had been, which was opportunistic fascists.
[deleted] · 13 points · Posted at 19:16:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
By that logic, North Korea must be a democratic republic. It's right there in thier name.
Nethervex · 1 points · Posted at 18:30:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That your political opinions are generic and completely unremarkable, more so completely not worth shit.
If you are willing to cause violence or harass anyone based on your dumbass opinions, you are human garbage and a detriment to society.
Its ridiculous how much circlejerking happens on this site. Not to mention mods blatantly pushing their rhetoric to the top. I have 23 blocked political subs and default subs who clearly bot/manipulate political garbage to the top of /r/all.
faithle55 · 2 points · Posted at 18:04:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How America allowed its hard-fought-for, bought by blood democratic traditions to be shat on by Donald Trump and his millionaire pirate crew.
deadman23px · 1 points · Posted at 14:18:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Klingon.
philsown · 1 points · Posted at 17:01:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
teHlaH'a'
oxfordcircumstances · 1 points · Posted at 14:19:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Round-abouts
MrUnfuckWittable · 1 points · Posted at 14:46:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"please stop yelling!"
AttonRand1 · 1 points · Posted at 15:00:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There's two sides to every story
TheRealHooks · 7 points · Posted at 15:47:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Or three...
Heck, there could be four sides.
SirEarlBigtitsXXVII · 1 points · Posted at 16:53:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How FM stereo multiplexing works.
Tylerlovesyou · 1 points · Posted at 16:54:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What EMTs/Paramedics actually do and that there IS a difference between the two
markymarksjewfro · 3 points · Posted at 17:32:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, EMTs are who you call when the person is fucked. Paramedics are the ones you call when the person is FUCKED.
Tylerlovesyou · 1 points · Posted at 17:38:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Probably the best way to describe it honestly
markymarksjewfro · 1 points · Posted at 17:48:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm not an EMT myself, but my girlfriend is, and that's kind of the conclusion that I've drawn.
littlep2000 · 1 points · Posted at 16:54:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Social security and other government programs that everyone, or nearly everyone, is an active part of.
kushincanada · 1 points · Posted at 17:28:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
1.1k comments in, not getting to the top comment
cubs_070816 · 1 points · Posted at 17:36:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
if you're clearly blocking a door/hallway that i'm headed toward, don't do the dumb side-to-side shimmy and ask "shall we dance?" like a dumbass -- get the fuck out of my way.
LastgenKeemstar · 1 points · Posted at 17:45:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Dropping a toaster into a body of water that you are in won't kill you.
throwaway17oz · 1 points · Posted at 18:46:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Trying this in my bath tub. I'll let you know how it goes
TheSlicemanCometh · 1 points · Posted at 17:48:23 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
UBI aka Basic Income.
If everything is automated prices fall exponentially, so the only result of these coming mass layoffs is that you work less.
Yes you make less money but your purchasing power remains the same ergo Basic Income is unnecessary.
Doctor_Crunchwrap · 1 points · Posted at 17:49:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What bankruptcy means, and it's variations
Acg7749 · 1 points · Posted at 19:43:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I
Declare
BANKRUPTCY
Doctor_Crunchwrap · 1 points · Posted at 19:54:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The amount of people who thought 50 Cent had gone broke and Donald Trump doesn't have money because of bankruptcies really was eye-opening. So many Americans have no idea how our financial systems work
pianoflames · 1 points · Posted at 20:36:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
its*
Doctor_Crunchwrap · 1 points · Posted at 20:50:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'ts
Induced_Pandemic · 1 points · Posted at 17:57:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Chip and swipe literally takes the exact same amount of time, quit your bitching.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 17:59:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If you see someone running, get the hell out the way. I went for a run earlier today and a couple of old ladies just took up the entire footpath forcing me on to the grass, then when I nearly finished my lap they got in the way again forcing me to stop rather than go on the road and one of them just said "oh we saw you before", completely oblivious that I'm trying to top my best 5k time.
iaMNinjaFuze · 1 points · Posted at 18:11:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
At a four way stop it's much better if you go first than letting someone else go to be nice
thewizardofwank · 1 points · Posted at 18:12:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Gaelic
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:13:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just because you found a photo on the internet funny does not make it a 'meme'. Just like every photo of someone isn't a 'selfie'.
commandermurph · 1 points · Posted at 18:18:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How fucked our country is about to be
twopointohyeah · 1 points · Posted at 18:23:06 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That freedom of speech does not mean you can say anything that you want without any repercussion from private individuals or businesses.
Anyposs · 1 points · Posted at 18:30:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That humans aren't dealing with an "us" vs. "them," but an "us" vs. "us." This can be applied to politics and wars, as we can't seem to realize that we're all humans on this small little speck of blue, and we have to learn to live with each other. We need to realize we're all on the same team here.
MeLikeChoco · 1 points · Posted at 18:30:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Free speech doesn't mean others can't criticize you.
The_Dread_Pony · 1 points · Posted at 18:32:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
THAT ZENYATTA CANT FUCKING SOLO HEAL. ESPECIALLY IN COMP, I PICK ZEN TO HAVE FUN NOT HEAR 5 FIVE WINING IMBECILES BEGGING FOR ME TO HEAL THEM AT THE SAME TIME
Mahruta · 1 points · Posted at 19:56:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just pick Ana or Mercy and boom problem solved, your team is not getting cucked every fight now
nutmegtell · 1 points · Posted at 18:32:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That sugar will not make children hyper. It's been debunked over and over but the masses continue to say it like its true "Jimmy couldn't sleep last night, he was all hopped up on jellybeans"
Chinchillachimcheroo · 2 points · Posted at 18:35:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
This is a good one, and I think it's way more than 90%.
Even though I've read enough to convince me what you say is true, part of my brain still won't accept it.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:43:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm late to the party but here goes.
That we're (The U.S. anyway) doomed.
I'm in my mid twenties. Growing up, everyone told me social security wouldn't be around for my generation. They said get a good job and save. Be prepared.
I don't think they knew Social Security wouldn't be around for my parents.
It's not a problem anyone thought of. Everyone's living longer, better lives! That's great, right? But, in an insidious way it's going to be our downfall unless something major happens very soon. The weight of the baby boomers, and then all of their kids combined with the fact that people are living longer and longer (thus receiving benefits for longer and longer) is going to destroy social security.
All of the sudden our country will be full to the brim with elderly people that can't get back in to the workforce, and suddenly don't have that safety net they were counting on. We're talking millions of people with literally no money, all of the sudden. Where will they go? How will they afford to eat? Much less pay rent. The lucky ones will be able to move in with their kids. The less fortunate, well.... I don't think it's an exaggeration to say we could start having bodies in the streets.
No one's talking about it. But in the next 20-40 years, the economy as we know it is going to have to change or millions upon millions will die. Automation is taking jobs at a faster and faster rate. There already aren't enough jobs, and the jobs we do have are going away fast. Consider how many millions of jobs will be lost to automated cars alone, much less all the other automation we'll be figuring out in the near future. No jobs, no social security safety net.... It paints a bleak picture. And there doesn't seem to be a solution.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:56:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Capitalism is making the planet uninhabitable so the .01% can buy their 7th yacht...
alllthewebs · 1 points · Posted at 18:59:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What "gender" actually is.
RangoRipley · 1 points · Posted at 19:02:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The merits of Socialism.
AJ1AN · 1 points · Posted at 19:03:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The speed limit is as FAST as you're supposed to go...
JackRidgway9000 · 1 points · Posted at 19:05:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That there are only two genders and you can't decide what gender they are.
iamnotbillyjoel · 1 points · Posted at 19:06:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
using inequality to create equality
drprivate · 1 points · Posted at 19:10:46 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The left lane is for passing. Pass quickly and move back over. If not YOU are breaking the law and causing a safety issue
ArksSystem · 1 points · Posted at 19:19:07 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That Human doesn't come from Monkey in the evolution theory but are related to a common ancestors.
Daverbater · 1 points · Posted at 19:22:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Blocking public streets and highways will never win anyone to your side of a protests who isn't already in agreement.
Era_Temira · 1 points · Posted at 19:27:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
On reddit? Spirituality.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 13:33:04 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Lord_Punchings · 1 points · Posted at 18:26:19 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
How do I change that?
Era_Temira · 1 points · Posted at 13:37:25 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
hey, girl what's the issue? Surely as a woman you have emotions and those colour your intellect more than guy's? That's half way to spirituality.. how do you know I'm seducable? I know your game. The power of the mind :)
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:07:17 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Era_Temira · 1 points · Posted at 20:15:38 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Why is that, why do you think that? Why do you presume to outrank me? ;0
I'm an INTJ
Era_Temira · 1 points · Posted at 20:25:57 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
5 People. they norm, they pleb and they hum(the)drum.
(These next ones are enlightened/empowered)
6 Devils, they'll nick your drugs and your money but they're okay really. they need some spiritual guidance. They often fall because of trivial pursuit.
7 Men. They exist in heaven. 777 Jackpot.
8 Women. They are heaven, on their sides 8 is ∞. They have deep spirituality and care for animals and people alike "aww how cute" instead of "LOL" and are nurturing. They even have breasts like the Brahman.
9 Messiah, not seduced, Buddha, Tesla, Newton, Joan of Arc.. uncorrupted shamans are here too. They're close to the source and they channel the original order and spiritual leaders. They have little to no mental illness. beings of light, Zen, quantum erasure and pure love. Decent gurus are here too.
You decimalise it, so if you're an enlightened tomboy woman you're an 8.7.
What do you think. Do you like my spirituality scale?
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 20:32:36 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 14:33:35 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm pretty sure this guy's just insane. Nothing he says makes any sense.
INFPgirl · 1 points · Posted at 21:17:28 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
I figured as much but, thank you for alerting me :)
Era_Temira · 1 points · Posted at 20:53:51 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Jesus was a 9.7. Starcraft 2 players are 9.0. They haven't been seduced by a woman yet. You can attain a 9 again if you commit yourself truly to the cause so gurus and the Buddha can regain their 9s. Cloud 9 innit.
Today we have a 9.8 out there I think. A female Jesus. I think she'd have good genes to start with so Afro/Native American/Indian/Chinese. I can barely imagine how they'd look. She's be the spiritual leader of every spiritual person on Earth. Brahman incarnate, guiding us through crazy age of Donald Trump, Brexit, Un, Putin, China etc...
Quantum computers are nearing their early potential, we'll put a neural network AI in there and we'll have technology inventor. You put in your blueprints and find optimal engineering solutions, put in a fusion reactor for example and a few months it will spit out a working net profit fusion reactor blueprint. We have genius/Jesus somewhere in the west loking out for 1.1billion of us westerners. I wonder who it could be hmm. It's not you is it? :)
India and China have the same but they both have 1.4 billion so they slightly outweight, you'll notice a lot industry is moving that way and we drink their culture like Sanskrit and zen Buddhism, we don't have anything like it over here apart from the new quantum mechanics based simulation theories. ;)
True power is derived from spirituality.
Same with South America but they have far less people and then the same again for Oceania with again far less people. You get a central part to the trunk ion a tree and that is your genius/messiahs/major spiritual leaders.
BeanKitty1 · 1 points · Posted at 19:32:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just because I smoke weed doesnt mean Im a stupid no life stoner.
ChilllVibes · 1 points · Posted at 19:32:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That the world is actually flat
(just a joke guys don't hate me)
devoutwharf · 1 points · Posted at 20:29:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Why would we hate you for spreading the truth
hightechhippie · 1 points · Posted at 19:33:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That we are all debt slaves - many people out there that believe that the Federal Reserve is an “agency” of the federal government. But that is not true at all. The Federal Reserve is an unelected, unaccountable central banking cartel, and it has argued in federal court that it is “not an agency” of the federal government and therefore not subject to the Freedom of Information Act. The 12 regional Federal Reserve banks are organized “much like private corporations“, and they actually issue shares of stock to the “member banks” that own them. 100 percent of the shareholders of the Federal Reserve are private banks. The U.S. government owns zero shares.
Many people also assume that the federal government “issues money”, but that is not true at all either. Under our current system, what the federal government actually does is borrow money that the Federal Reserve creates out of thin air. The big banks, the ultra-wealthy and other countries purchase the debt that is created, and we end up as debt servants to them.
wreave · 1 points · Posted at 19:42:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Free speech only works when you also defend speech that you don't like. Allowing only "free speech" that you agree with is the exact opposite of free speech.
ThrowItAawaaaaaaaaay · 1 points · Posted at 19:44:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That life is short and no matter what you do you will never amount to anything.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:48:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Aren't you a treat!
DANGEROUS-jim · 1 points · Posted at 19:47:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
"downvote" does not equal "I don't like this"
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 19:53:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Makefunofeveryone · 1 points · Posted at 19:59:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That stereotypes don't come from thin air
El_Dumfuco · 1 points · Posted at 20:32:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It doesn't matter what you call things. Labels are pointless and usually uttered as a means of distraction. Word meanings are arbitrary and arguing about the "true" meaning of a word is a waste of time.
fluffyfluffyheadd · -5 points · Posted at 17:23:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Net neutrality. Most redditors/millennial teens seem to be under the impression that this is a bad thing...
Wowtuck · 15 points · Posted at 18:50:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I haven't seen many people say it's a bad thing, most people on reddit are getting riled over it being TAKEN AWAY.
The_Masterbolt · 1 points · Posted at 22:17:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Lol what?
[deleted] · -1 points · Posted at 18:13:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Birds1010 · 4 points · Posted at 19:35:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Depression absolutely is a chemical imbalance. Care to share where you got your medical degree and the studies you performed to say otherwise?
[deleted] · -6 points · Posted at 14:42:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
poo-boys-united · 5 points · Posted at 15:03:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
no
StoneSoul · 2 points · Posted at 16:30:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Maybe
[deleted] · -6 points · Posted at 19:04:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Trump isn't a racist and the left is by far the bigger hate group
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:40:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Exaplain this?
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:40:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Exaplain this.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 20:40:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Exaplain this.
vsbobclear · 0 points · Posted at 19:56:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Unlike the KKK, White nationalists and neo-nazis, the left doesn't hate people based on how they were born.
[deleted] · -1 points · Posted at 20:50:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Trump is none of those things, lmao. K thnx
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 18:16:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
88slides · 1 points · Posted at 23:56:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Do you really believe that 90% of people don't believe in equality?
Mahruta · 1 points · Posted at 19:55:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
OP said "something 90% don't understand", not 5
[deleted] · -14 points · Posted at 15:14:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
throwaway17oz · 9 points · Posted at 18:16:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
-an atheist
Wow much profound
Vyrmayn_Gothryn · 5 points · Posted at 18:57:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's much less an atheist thing and much more an absurdist thing. There may be no such things as a nihilist christian, but there are existentialist and absurdist atheists.
PvtLongDong · 2 points · Posted at 19:55:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Hahahahaha you fucking loser
Why would you end your post with that
My neckbeard alarms are clanging
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 01:05:45 on August 16, 2017 · (Permalink)
Wow... More positive votes for the negative comments, then the negative votes for the comment itself... I read the polls and realize atheists are unpopular but always surprised when I am reminded it is so...
Whatever you believe may it bring you peace!
rushfan2112556 · -5 points · Posted at 18:22:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Trump is not a racist.
FocusOnTheFamily-co · -43 points · Posted at 14:04:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I sexually Identify as an emo. Ever since I was a boy I dreamed of cutting all over myself dripping hot warm blood all over the floor. People say to me that a person being an emo is impossile and fucking retarded but I don’t care, I’m beautiful. I’m having a plastic surgeon install razorblades, scalpels and knives all over my body. From now on I want you guys to call me “Maleza” and respect my right to cut my arms and listen to Bring Me To Life by Evanescence. If you can’t accept me you’re a emophobe and need to check your styrofoam privilege. Thank you for being so understanding.
[deleted] · 4 points · Posted at 18:35:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Lol I know you're trolling but I have actually met a very troubled person who is exactly like this
FocusOnTheFamily-co · 2 points · Posted at 18:42:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
damn that sucks I hope he got help poor thing.
Cranky_Kong · 13 points · Posted at 15:42:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yet again another blatant example why op should never forget the [serious] tag.
joculator · 4 points · Posted at 14:59:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
But I'm genetically preordained to abhor Emo people. Why don't you respect my right to avoid contact with you?
FocusOnTheFamily-co · 0 points · Posted at 18:43:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Why do people complaining about getting walked on get thousands of upvotes and a gold while I get buried with my extreme suffering??
Not fair man not fair.
CaptnThunderBolt · -2 points · Posted at 14:12:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Hahaha!
Sebly1 · -37 points · Posted at 14:33:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Patriotism is shit and isn't to far away from fascism.
[deleted] · 17 points · Posted at 16:09:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I believe you mean nationalism, which can then turn into fascism. Another problem is that people seem to have forgotten what patriotism really was: loyalty to your country and her inhabitants.
Problem is people take that last bit and choose to exclude various groups, claiming "they don't count".
I'll use the U.S. as an example, because it's what I know. If you either came to the Unites States to live and love, or were born here and choose to do so, then you are an American, free and the same as the rest of us.
If someone denies, or tried to deny someone else that right based purely on skin colour, or religion, or heritage, then they [the denier] are not a patriot.
If one supports an enemy of this country in an active sense, or would desire their victory over us, be it the Nazis, Stalinists, Taliban or whoever, they are not a patriot.
If one threatens with violence and brutal oppression their fellow Americans for petty reasons (as is happening now) they are not a patriot.
Now, do not misunderstand me. Being critical of your government and, to a degree, your country's culture (e.g. a progressive believing that democrats have lost what made them great, or a conservative believing liberals are losing focus on what matters) can be patriotic. Protesting and vocalizing discontent can be patriotic, but desiring the deaths or exiles of other Americans for stupid reasons, such as simply because their a liberal or a conservative, Jewish or Christian, or black or white or any colour is unpatriotic, and when faced with radicalism one should feel, more than anything else, sorrow for their comrades, and should desire that in the end they open their mind to reason, long enough to reach a proper balance and healthy respect for their fellow Americans.
Kufu1796 · 1 points · Posted at 19:55:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Nationalism is shit and isn't to far away from fascism.
Patriotism is pushing us forward as a society.
Sebly1 · 1 points · Posted at 20:03:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm german. If I would say this I would be called a nazi.
Kufu1796 · 1 points · Posted at 20:27:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You shouldn't be, because people are stupid and don't know the difference between nationalism and patriotism. Germany is actually an awesome country, it's sad that people can't really be patriotic there.
Sebly1 · -15 points · Posted at 17:46:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Obviously I,m right because in reddit you get downvoted for saying the truth.
Mahruta · 3 points · Posted at 19:49:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ok, then. Hitler did nothing wrong! Let's see how Reddit will downvote this "truth".
NonsensicalOrange · 1 points · Posted at 19:27:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Lately Reddit has been promoting posts designed to teach/convince others that patriotism and nationalism are very different, with the former being inspiring/good and the latter being extreme/bigoted/bad. That's not how I understand the word patriotism, but it seems that's how many others understand it, Americans are raised to believe in patriotism.
EuroBronco · -4 points · Posted at 18:11:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That socialism and progressivism is destructive and never works.
amn70 · 2 points · Posted at 18:24:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Without progressivism our country wouldn't have advanced. Woman still wouldn't vote and it would still be legal to own slaves. Both conservatism and progressivism have good and bad parts but overall it's progressivesm that moves society forward.
EuroBronco · -1 points · Posted at 19:18:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah and what else did we get? Massive government spending and increase in size, the limiting of individual liberty, the oppression of the minority, the shrinking of the middle class, and the overall expansion of socialist ideals
amn70 · 3 points · Posted at 21:24:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So u have been ok if women were still not allowed to vote and we could still legally own blacks? In the end both ends of spectrum can have bad aspects, its about finding a balance. You just have it ur head that ur side can do no wrong.
INDIGOVEGAS · -7 points · Posted at 17:08:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That putting your flasher/blinker on to switch lanes doesn't automatically allow you to come over in front of me. It's sort of like a question, you blink, I flash my headlights, and you proceed to enter my lane. Don't just assume that I'm going to let you over. Sadly this is how I got ran off the road
EDIT: This applies if the distance between me and them AFTER the lane change is entirely too close
lawschoolbreak · 8 points · Posted at 17:12:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It is an indicator light, not a request. A person changing lanes is giving notice of their action, not asking your permission.
INDIGOVEGAS · 7 points · Posted at 17:14:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If they are so close to me that I have to slam on the brakes, they should wait for my permission, I guess thats a better way to word it.
lawschoolbreak · 3 points · Posted at 17:53:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I agree that people have a difficult time understanding safe braking distances.
INDIGOVEGAS · 3 points · Posted at 17:56:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
yes my apologies, i should've stated that in my original comment lol
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 15:10:31 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
Cranky_Kong · 2 points · Posted at 15:37:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You're a fucking idiot.
Aggregate data can narrow you down to a specific Place location and time simply by your browser preferences.
vince1217 · 0 points · Posted at 16:44:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Common sense
pianoflames · 1 points · Posted at 19:33:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
If 90% of the population didn't understand common sense then it would be called "uncommon sense."
That seems like common sense to me, but I could be not understanding it too.
a_hungry_alpaca · 1 points · Posted at 19:51:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Common sense is surprisingly uncommon. I find it to be a misnomer.
pianoflames · 1 points · Posted at 19:54:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So you're referring to uncommon sense then.
a_hungry_alpaca · 1 points · Posted at 20:07:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What many define as "common sense" doesn't seem to be that common to me. That's all I'm saying.
pianoflames · 1 points · Posted at 20:15:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's defined by many...so it is common sense then.
a_hungry_alpaca · 1 points · Posted at 20:54:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just because it is defined by many, doesn't mean it's common. That makes no sense.
pianoflames · 1 points · Posted at 20:56:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Seems like common sense to me.
Golden_Donald · 0 points · Posted at 17:39:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That Trump is the best thing to happen to this country in a looooong time.
Irelgbt · 0 points · Posted at 17:45:25 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
😂😂😂😂 when a president says that counter protestors at a white supremacist/Nazi rally are also in the wrong
That's how you know everything has gone to shit
Golden_Donald · 0 points · Posted at 17:51:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
well....they are
boss_Kado · 0 points · Posted at 18:01:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There is no such thing as a "free trial." Read the GD terms and conditions and you'll see that you're getting charged $99.99 per month for wrinkle cream that doesn't work.
rainemaker · 0 points · Posted at 18:14:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Their rights.
sebeastian84 · 0 points · Posted at 18:32:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Women
VARice22 · 0 points · Posted at 18:57:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Porn, but in a social context. Everyone faps and people don't understand that. I could be a computer science major working on cyber security for porn hub, encrypting the information on there paid amateur program and people would look keep their kids away from me because I do 'lewd things all day'. Bitch I write code, ain't shit lewd about that!
triplezero650 · 0 points · Posted at 19:05:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
THAT IT'S NOT JUST A PHASE, MOM!
protheist · 0 points · Posted at 19:05:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A pimp's love is very different from that of a square
HalfBreed_Priscilla · 0 points · Posted at 19:07:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Infinity
butkaf · 0 points · Posted at 19:10:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Humans are animals, biological beings bound by constraints and species-typical behaviours no culture or ideology will ever overcome or suppress, and feverish attempts to do so only cause suffering.
DemophonWizard · 0 points · Posted at 19:18:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Most people don't understand quite how much influence random chance and luck has had on their life. The richer you are the more likely you're going ascribe your good fortune to hard work, when the reality is more likely that you got lucky.
VinnyDelFuego · 0 points · Posted at 19:30:13 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Dieting. It simply comes down to calories in and calories out. Not "eating clean" or following Keto, Whole30 etc...
imBloodz · 2 points · Posted at 19:55:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You mean dieting for weight loss, its a complete different story for fat loss or building muscle.
VinnyDelFuego · 1 points · Posted at 19:57:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Correct, should have been more specific. Muscle building is much more difficult.
TheGreyFencer · 0 points · Posted at 19:31:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Politics.
rochestercyclist · 0 points · Posted at 19:32:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
How the internet/the cloud works.
mister_hubba · 0 points · Posted at 19:32:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Compound interest.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 19:34:38 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Hunting animals in Africa is required to stop them becoming extinct.
T3h5qu1rr3l · 0 points · Posted at 19:41:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
90% of everything.
Adamsan41978 · 0 points · Posted at 19:42:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The concept of "free speech". Taking it away for just some is against what many people have fought for. Saying what you want to say isn't against the law but it doesn't mean that it won't have repercussions. I've seen so much crap posted online this week that I feel a majority of the internet needs a couple of Free Speech for Dummies books handed out.
soberirishman78 · 0 points · Posted at 19:43:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That it doesn't matter who the president is, we are all getting fucked and all politicians are crooked and generally trying to steal everything from us.
C4Cypher · 0 points · Posted at 19:44:51 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Are traps gay?
Josiah21231 · 0 points · Posted at 19:47:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That male and female are the only genders. God made Adam and eve not Adam and steve
Part-time_Sleep · 1 points · Posted at 19:49:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I think you're confusing gender with sexual preference...
Kufu1796 · 1 points · Posted at 20:17:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Sex doesn't equal gender. Someone's sex is what's between their legs. Gender is which gender role you fit into. A woman is female(sex) but feels like a man(gender).
Mmmelissamarie · 0 points · Posted at 19:50:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Jet fuel can't melt steel beams.
Memo4life · 0 points · Posted at 19:53:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That you can achieve you dreams.You just have to work hard for them.Every year,every month,every week,every day...
DanielFrigginJackson · 0 points · Posted at 19:58:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Downvoting isn't meant for use when you disagree. I admit I do it too when someone says something odious, but I try to not use it too much.
[deleted] · 0 points · Posted at 20:33:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You can't be an anti-fascist, anarchist student when the establishment let 1% let you borrow $70,000 to go to college (a.k.a. young person vacation time, especially when you have a non-STEM degree)
NebulousTranscendent · 1 points · Posted at 21:06:02 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm pretty sure that's the whole point. I think you'd be fairly anti-capitalist if you ended up aged 20-something with thousands in debt and no choice about whether you take the English degree you really want to do or the STEM degree you need for a good quality of life.
KaraWolf · 1 points · Posted at 22:18:40 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
As a young 20-something with a degree and debt...that was not vacation time. Good god that would have been nice! Lol
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 00:24:35 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
You can get a good quality life without going to college, people don't understand this for some reason. There is no shame in learning a trade. I know people graduate school age, who never went to college, zero debt, own their own car and home.
deanolavorto · -5 points · Posted at 17:51:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That alt-right=Nazi
[deleted] · -10 points · Posted at 18:13:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
There are more than 2 genders. I will contest this with anyone.
Pig743 · 2 points · Posted at 19:52:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
What's the difference between gender and peronality for you?
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 19:58:53 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That's actually a good question. Gender is assigned to you at birth, and you have no choice. Personality is developed through experiences. I have been changing my gender because I feel like my biological gender (male) isn't congruent with how I feel on the inside (female.) I just like looking like and being percieved as female, because being male makes me uncomfortable.
Pig743 · 2 points · Posted at 20:00:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I see. Isn't that more a case of gender dysphoria, and not that there are more than 2 genders? Just that you feel that you are the opposite?
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 20:03:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oops, I forgot the context before I responded! Sorry! Anyways, some people feel like neither male or female are how they want to be percieved, and they rebel against the gender binary. Typically, nonbinary people have dysphoria with the male and female genders.
Pig743 · 1 points · Posted at 20:10:50 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In my opinion, I think there is a big flaw with it. There is no medical or biological proof they are another gender, or that they are essentially people with a disorder. Kinda like how intersex is not another gender. It does sound a bit mean though, because the word "disorder" always has a bit of a negative meaning.
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 20:15:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I will respectfully disagree. Several cultures across the world have had instantses of 3, 4, and sometimes 5 seperate gender indentities.
Source: http://tvblogs.nationalgeographic.com/2012/09/28/when-gender-is-not-binary/
Pig743 · 1 points · Posted at 20:26:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
You have to think about if that is really a strong argument though. I mean, historically what beliefs cultures have are not always the truth. Look at religion, there have been thousands of religions. Is even one of these really the truth though? It isn't scientifically proven in any way.
You are entitled to your own belief, but I don't think there is enough evidence as of now.
(Of course this does not mean I discriminate against people who identify as non-binary)
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 20:34:22 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Lets agree to disagree then. Thanks for being respectful and not an asshole in this conversation.
CaptainSplunge · 2 points · Posted at 18:16:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Oh Reginald, I disagree
Redici · 1 points · Posted at 19:20:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So, I've actually been thinking in this for a while the other day. What's the difference between what you call genders (beyond male/female/intersexual) and sexualities? Because in the recent (couple years) I've noticed a lot of time someone's "gender" is just a better guide of who they'd like to have sex with which I've always known as someone's secuality. Now of course there's also "genders" that are described like "when the sun is out but it's partially cloudy I identify as a space fox from the 7th planet of the 23rd star" or other ridiculous things.
[deleted] · -1 points · Posted at 19:37:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
First of all, gender is a social construct. Sexuality is who you want to bang. For example, I identify with female more than I do male despite being born male. Ergo, I am a transwomen. Anything that refers to me as male makes me feel uncomfortable, because thats not who I am. Some people, however, feel uncomfortable with male or female, and reject that idea entirely. The binary genders arent enough for everyone, and it's more like a spectrum. And finally, the kind of people that say stupid things like that final example you made are usually strawmen.
[deleted] · -1 points · Posted at 14:30:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
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DeathSprings · -1 points · Posted at 16:12:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Passing me on the surface roads doesnt get you there faster. It just makes you an asshole.
The_Masterbolt · 1 points · Posted at 23:04:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
No, they still got there faster.
DeathSprings · 0 points · Posted at 01:45:06 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
By 2 seconds... Unless you decide to speed. Then i get there faster.
The_Masterbolt · 1 points · Posted at 02:03:03 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
yawn
DeathSprings · 0 points · Posted at 02:03:43 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Be board. Idk i always laugh at sex lights.
justnodalong · -1 points · Posted at 18:56:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
that workers have no say in policies. I'd like to knock out 90% of the people who yell and scream and blame.
navywill88 · -1 points · Posted at 18:58:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just because you have a stable job, doesn’t mean you shouldn’t leave if you aren’t happy. I see it all the time people miserable in their jobs. You have the power to change the situation, but don’t expect the change to always be easy. If you’re not happy, work towards what makes you happy.
UncleTwinkleToes · -1 points · Posted at 19:06:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
He only cost 5 mil.
He's better than Ozil.
🎵🎶WE'VE GOT DELE ALI🎶🎵
Yo_Face_Nate · -1 points · Posted at 19:08:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
More like 100% but how did trump become present?
Mahruta · 1 points · Posted at 19:57:35 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
He got more voices than Hillary, duh
Kufu1796 · 1 points · Posted at 20:14:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
He played his campaign very well.
MatrixAdmin · -1 points · Posted at 19:26:29 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Vegetarians and Vegans are right! The vast majority is very wrong in thinking that it's acceptable to raise animals to slaughter and eat. This is not only extremely unethical, it's also incredibly unnecessary and unhealthy.
YileKu · -1 points · Posted at 19:26:36 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That government isn't santa clause. Politicians on TV keep saying they are going to give this and that to them and those. 90% of the people believe that and think it is okay. Government can't create something from nothing and give it away. It all has a cost and that cost is paid with forcefully taken resources.
quishubb · -1 points · Posted at 19:26:47 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Hey guys, I'm an athlete and I am up for preseason athlete of the year but I need more votes in order to win it! Please vote for me, it will be greatly appreacited. My name is marquis hubbard, you can vote as many times are you like also. Thank you http://vype.com/privateschools/2017/08/10/poll-private-school-preseason-football-player-of-the-year/
MarxnEngles · -1 points · Posted at 19:28:58 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The tu quoque fallacy (and many others) - this is especially visible here on reddit.
Tu quoque takes the form of
Fred: Cathy does thing A
Fred: doing thing A makes you a douche
Fred: Cathy is therefor a douche.
Cathy: Fred also does thing A, and therefor your conclusion is wrong, and I am not a douche!
See, the crux of tu quoque is that the person being accused tries to argue that they are not guilty of whatever they are being accused of because their accuser does the same thing, which is a conclusion which does not logically follow from the premise.
So, to pick on /r/worldnews, it's a valid argument to say that, for example, the US is bad because it had concentration camps for Japanese people. It is also a valid argument to say that the US is not the only bad country for this, because other countries have ALSO had concentration camps - this is not tu quoque, since the second argument is condemning the use of concentration camps by everyone, including the US.
Tu quoque in this example would be if the second argument stated "US concentration camps don't matter/didn't happen because other countries had concentration camps."
[deleted] · -1 points · Posted at 19:43:37 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
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dgm42 · 1 points · Posted at 19:50:20 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I like the Dilbert quote:
"There are two ways to get rich. One is by crime and the other is by inheritance. The preferred approach is to have your parents do the crime and then inherit from them."
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TalibanBaconCompany · -1 points · Posted at 19:45:44 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm 90% sure that everything mentioned in this thread is complete hyperbole or anecdotal and the great people of Reddit only want to nitpick about what Reddit nitpicks about.
Because if 9 out of 10 people committed all of these so-called offenses, I'm pretty sure the world would disintegrate within a week. Or we'd be praising our North Korean overlords. Take your pick. but you're all full of shit and complaining because you got shoved a bit on the bus this morning or called into a meeting that you didn't want to attend.
Stand back and think about it. Then go stand in the corner and feel shame for trying to elicit pity from the internet.
poorasapeasant · -1 points · Posted at 19:48:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That Reddit is filled with Retarded Liberal Losers. Wait... maybe we all know that.
7mil · -1 points · Posted at 19:54:12 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Right and wrong. There is no in between, some people literally fuck up so hard that morality wont fix what they did.
"I felt it so I did it, I shouldn't be punished because you dont understand"
butchprincess · -1 points · Posted at 19:54:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
In America: the right lane is the travel lane and the left is for PASSING ONLY. Get back in the left lane after you pass.
There are two types of people: those who know this, and those who annoy the shit out of everyone else by driving in the left lane.
qi1 · -1 points · Posted at 19:56:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
A human life biologically begins at conception/fertilization. Not birth, not viability, not at any other point.
40miler · -12 points · Posted at 17:23:33 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That taxation is theft.
bo_dingles · 6 points · Posted at 17:24:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Care to explain that?
free_is_free76 · -4 points · Posted at 17:36:00 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The gov't initiates the use of force if you don't give them money
bo_dingles · 4 points · Posted at 18:36:39 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
So? People got together and said "we want these services" and formed a government. The government says it costs 'x' to do, so taxes are collected to pay for it.
You can leave the country, renounce your citizenship and no longer pay taxes, but as long as you consume the services, you have to pay something.
40miler · -3 points · Posted at 19:05:18 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
And to Hell with the people who don't use and don't want those services?
Mugging someone and then giving them a bag of rice is still mugging them.
bo_dingles · 1 points · Posted at 22:34:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Then leave. You live in society under the protection of their military, with healthcare, education, etc. available and you don't think you need to pay for those services? Just because you don't realize all the services your tax dollars go to doesn't mean you don't consume the services.
40miler · 2 points · Posted at 22:48:48 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Or, you know, the government could stop spending my money on things I neither want nor need. You asked "and you dont think you need to pay for those services?" I pay for my own healthcare. Ever heard of private school? Oh, and I paid for my own college, thanks.
What I'm not ok with is paying for other people's healthcare, education, charities, and incarceration for victimless crimes.
And for the record, I'm keenly aware of the "services" my tax dollars go to. Those are mostly services for other people. Taxation is the redistribution of wealth, which creates a society dependent upon a welfare state. Government should not be in the charity business. Social services programs should be private, philanthropic affairs. Because communism sucks. Socialism sucks.
bo_dingles · 1 points · Posted at 23:30:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Unfortunately for snowflakes like yourself, the country as a whole decided these services should be available regardless of you using them or not. You're left with two choices, either accept that the majority has decided what programs at minimum to provide and pay your taxes or leave and stop consuming any of the services.
Also, when you pick and choose how your tax dollars should be spent (specifying you aren't for incarceration of victimless crimes, let's me infer you are for crimes with a victim) you really weaken your "taxes are theft" argument. At this point you're sitting at a buffet saying you shouldn't be charged because you didn't try everything.
40miler · 2 points · Posted at 00:17:04 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Ah. So you've chosen the whole "namecalling" approach. How very cosmopolitan.
Can't argue with that sort of intellectual fortitude. You've outwitted me, ma'am.
bo_dingles · 1 points · Posted at 00:45:59 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
You're right, I shouldn't have called you a snowflake regardless of how appropriate it was to you. Of course, that doesn't invalidate any of my points.
You made a bad argument. I called you on it.
You responded with changing your argument. I called you on that.
You decided that rather than admit you were wrong, you'll feign offense that I called you a snowflake and tell yourself that you were right all along.
Guess what, you're still wrong. Taxes aren't theft. The majority voted for the policies that taxes fund (or at least the politicians that enacted them). If you think individual programs have to go, then get a majority together to get rid of the program. Otherwise, admit taxes are a part of society that go to programs you do and don't support or leave and renounce your citizenship and all services the government provides you.
free_is_free76 · 2 points · Posted at 00:39:19 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Just because the majority votes for theft, doesn't mean it's not theft.
The majority cannot vote away the property rights of the minority.
bo_dingles · 1 points · Posted at 00:55:48 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Again, if you go to McDonalds and order a cheeseburger, and they make you pay, is it theft?
No, you're exchanging one thing for another. The majority has told the government to provide a service. That service costs money. Taxes fund the service.
But you, individually, don't want/ consume/etc. the specific service? Doesn't matter. The majority makes the rules and to get any service the government provides you have to pay all your taxes. The really nice thing is if you don't want any service, you have a way out of paying them: Leave the country, renounce your citizenship and use no more of what the government provides you.
40miler · 2 points · Posted at 01:43:22 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
The McDonald's analogy is fallacious in that you admitted that I initiated the transaction with McDonald's - that I was a voluntary and willing participant. A more representative scenario would be I go to McD's and order a cheeseburger, but they charge me for a cheeseburger, fries, Coke, and an apple pie... that I don't even get to eat. And that's where your whole "well, they offer the service so its your own fault for not partaking" argument falls apart.
Your like it or leave argument is nothing more than nationalist posturing, unworthy of retort as it implies that you hold a greater claim to the land (that I own and reside on) than I do.
bo_dingles · 1 points · Posted at 02:20:23 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yeah, the analogy isn't great. But you yourself decided some things the taxes go to and some they can't. Instead of them tacking on the fries/ soda/etc. its more that you're going to be charged for the whole burger regardless of if you want it regular, without pickles, or plain. You want to be a part of this society because you want at least some of the things it offers. It doesn't accept you deciding you are paying ten cents less because you have no lettuce or tomato on your burger.
The majority controls the force of the country. You can make claim to whatever land you want but unless you can keep others from controlling it, your claim is worthless. The US military protects America, deciding you aren't part of it means you don't have their protection. That's why my response is suck it up or leave.
free_is_free76 · 1 points · Posted at 02:15:01 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
You're making the common mistake of interjecting the voluntary aspect of the free market into a scenario that is unequivocally non-voluntary.
Your analogy fails because I choose to buy a cheeseburger, voluntarily. No one is threatening me with the initiation of force if I don't buy one.
And again, the majority cannot vote away property rigjts of the minority.
bo_dingles · 1 points · Posted at 02:41:15 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes, it's an analogy which means it isn't a perfect comparison but an attempt to explain.
You say taxes are theft. Except they are what's required to pay for the services the government provides. There's no depriving you of what you own, there's billing you for services rendered.
You say you don't want 'x' program but you aren't the ruler of the country. You have a voice, but so do a couple hundred million. The majority wants it, so it happens. That's how our government works.
You keep claiming the majority can't deprive the minority, but since they have, why do you think that they can't? The government has rules about things applying unfairly to protected classes, but just because you vote against a policy doesn't make you a protected class.
free_is_free76 · 1 points · Posted at 03:01:59 on August 15, 2017 · (Permalink)
The smallest minority on Earth is the individual, whom should each be protected by unalienable rights from theft, regardless of the number who vote for that theft to occur. True enough, the majority do deprive the minority of rights whenever "they" hold control over the police power of the State -- we certainly don't live in a free society, and Individual rights are violated daily. But this can hardly be called moral, or just, or anything like a system that ought to be defended by free, rational men.
free_is_free76 · 0 points · Posted at 20:51:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Consistent with the title of the thread, 90% downvote
40miler · 0 points · Posted at 20:57:11 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
It's amazing. And sad, don't you think?
free_is_free76 · 0 points · Posted at 21:02:26 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes. So far to go...
free_is_free76 · -2 points · Posted at 18:49:43 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
He asked to have explained why taxation is theft, not how that theft is justified in the minds of the masses.
BaggySpandex · 5 points · Posted at 17:58:08 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I like having paved roads, a police force, a fire department etc. I like paying taxes for those things.
What I do not like is people pocketing my tax money and misappropriating those funds in general.
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:39:24 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Communism!
[deleted] · -2 points · Posted at 15:55:14 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That we're not as independent as we feel we are. The vast majority of our behaviours and views are heavily influenced by our environment - the people we know, the place we live, our access to information (or lack of it). Everything from what looks good to what role religion should play in government you didn't come up with without external influence.
It's important for understanding others as well as understanding yourself.
irombie · -2 points · Posted at 19:07:17 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Rick and morty S3E4 was shitty.
raymondspogo · 1 points · Posted at 19:16:27 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Woah, spoiler alert!
justaformerpeasant · -2 points · Posted at 19:52:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Communism is just as dangerous as Nazism and should be just as socially unacceptable.
EngelbertHerpaderp · 1 points · Posted at 20:42:59 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
....um.......no?
justaformerpeasant · 0 points · Posted at 21:04:03 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Yes? The numbers don't lie. Communism kills people.
1320Fastback · -4 points · Posted at 16:38:19 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Drones dont have zoom lenses and cant really spy on you.
Your real invasion of privacy fear should be simple cheap DSLR cameras.
negrodamus90 · 0 points · Posted at 17:50:30 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
false
https://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2016/7/14/12187026/dji-zenmuse-z3-zoom-lens
LiquidDreamtime · -3 points · Posted at 19:27:16 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
90% of white men: Feminism 90% of white people: race related Privilege 90% of wealthy people: socioeconomic privilege 90% of Americans: the US isn't particularly unique or great in regards to freedom and opportunity
marcusaurelion · -12 points · Posted at 15:59:05 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That being a Brony is exactly like, if not worse, fighting a war
yellowbellies · 1 points · Posted at 18:16:52 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
wut
marcusaurelion · 1 points · Posted at 18:20:32 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I forgot the /s. actual quote by the way
IAmAPaidShill6969 · -12 points · Posted at 17:23:10 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
That Trump supporters are actually Nazi sympathizers
throwaway17oz · 1 points · Posted at 18:45:04 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Lol
Lechoza · -3 points · Posted at 17:08:41 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Upvote if you comment on AskReddit
Millenial_Falcon1 · -4 points · Posted at 18:06:21 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
White fragility
zandraxofnebulon · -3 points · Posted at 18:22:55 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Social privilege. People born with it don't notice that they have it better than other people.
bustayoung529 · -4 points · Posted at 18:31:54 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The earth is flat
[deleted] · -5 points · Posted at 17:36:34 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:10:01 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
[deleted]
[deleted] · 2 points · Posted at 18:25:09 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
To each his own I suppose. Everytime I go back to the QWERTY on my phone, I find it's pretty much unusable. It demands an unreasonable amount of precision from the user, and has to automatically correct typos in order to allow the user to type with any sort of speed. Using MessagEase, I've made only about three typos while typing this, without using text prediction (which is an option but I keep it switched off).
Irelgbt · 2 points · Posted at 17:51:56 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Why.Just why.
Nice to know someone is squeezing 10 seconds out of smartphone typing a day
[deleted] · 1 points · Posted at 18:01:57 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
I'm just answering the question honestly. Most people don't see any problem with using a layout designed for typewriters to prevent type bars from jamming… On their smartphones! It's bad enough still using it on a PC!
[deleted] · -7 points · Posted at 17:48:28 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
The wrong side won WW2
mu_on · -6 points · Posted at 17:53:42 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Most people don't understand how well the body heals itself when (and this doesn't apply to the most severe cases obviously): A) you stop relying on doctors B) you stop worrying C) you don't force a timeframe for getting better. I have had multiple types of chronic pain that have finally gone away for the most part simply from giving up on doctors and just not worrying. The body is far more intelligent than we are it seems.
amaa1993 · -7 points · Posted at 15:07:49 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Woman.
Aelian · -5 points · Posted at 17:23:45 on August 14, 2017 · (Permalink)
Veganism is the way forward, for the planet, the animals and ourselves.